# Need Advice for Baby Dove!



## ocipura

I have never touched a bird before today, so I'm really in over my head here, but here's my story.

I was out walking today, and about a mile from home I found a baby bird huddled against the wind, just sitting in the middle of the sidewalk. At first I thought it was dead and started to leave it! But I stopped, went back, and checked, and it was moving and breathing. I looked all around for its nest but couldn't see one, and he seemed in kind of bad shape. It's been very windy here, so I assume he blew out of his nest.

It might have been the wrong decision to try and take him in, but...what's done is done. I carried him home in my shirt. He was looking around a bit but hardly moving at all. I didn't hear him make a sound until I got him home, and in the quiet I could hear his tiny pathetic chirps.

I had no idea what to do, so I took him with me in a shoe box, wrapped in an old rag shirt, to Petsmart. An employee there said he was a dove of some sort (mourning doves are VERY common here), and that he was already very weak, cold, and hungry (I'd had him for maybe 1.5 hrs at this point, at most). She told me to get him warm and told me to feed him baby bird formula with a syringe pointed toward the left side as I'm looking at him... and told me about the temperatures and all that... 

When I got him back home, I set up his shoe box with a small electric heater that we used to have on our hermit crab cage. It only has one setting, and i believe it's a pretty gentle one, but I don't know how I can tell for sure if it's warm enough or too warm? On top of the heating pad I put a shirt/rag, and on top of that a layer of paper towel so I can throw away his messes.

The problem is the feeding. I've been trying with a syringe, as I was instructed, and with a dropper... But he won't open up for the food like I expected he would. I can't really tell how much he's getting, or if he's getting full or not! And it's making a HUGE mess. I try to wipe off the excess formula with warm water, but I can't seem to get it all off, and then he seems cold and wet!!

He perked up a little bit after his first feeding, but he's now back to being very calm and quiet - sleeping a lot. I'm worried he's just going to die  I guess I'm not cut out to be a momma bird. I'd never touched a bird before today, as I said... And I know I"m not supposed to touch him too much, as a wild bird, but I can't seem to get any feeding done without holding him with one hand on a towel. Argh! Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded. Just how I am. But please, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. - I've looked on youtube at videos of feeding baby doves, and based on comparison with other doves, I estimate that he's between 5-9 days old, so very young!

Here is a video I finally got uploaded to Youtube...so you can see him and see how incompetent I am: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av3IjKXAon0


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## John_D

For a starter, here is a link to a page on caring for baby pigeons. I know yours is a mourning dove probably, but feeding young baby pigeons/doves is same basically.

http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm

They don't gape like songbirds, so you have to gently open the beak to get the syringe/tube into the back of the mouth.


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## ocipura

I've been to the store to buy some more supplies. I am going to try feeding from a bottle nipple, and, if that doesn't work, I'll have to mutilate my syringe. I tried to buy another syringe so I'd have a spare that's not cut up, but I couldn't find one. 

What I would really like to know is... Can anyone see the video and say how old you think this bird is? Or... at the end of the video, can you tell if the crop is full? overfull? not full?? I can't tell.

How do I tell what a good/bad poop looks like??

The bird has never acted particularly hungry! Should I wait to feed it again until it does some begging???

thank you for the link! I am looking over it!


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## John_D

In the video, to me his crop looks quite full. I hope one of our US members will be looking at this - though feeding is the same for them as for our UK doves, I think their rate of growth may be different.

The legs do look weak, and if it were a collared dove we would probably give a little calcium supplement too, but it may be just his age.


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## Jaye

Nice save, O. It does appear to be a Mourning Dove baby...but I am not 100% sure.

Right now, you are doing things very well.

Push gently just a bit on the crop...see if it still feels like tehre's food in there (don't puch hard, just a gentle fingertip). It'll feel like a balloon.

The still photo looks like the crop is still sorta full. They usually eat 3-5 times/day so there's usually 3-5 hours passing between feedings.

Keep her VERY warm and in a soft and quiet place. By warm I mean an ambient temperature of 80 derees farenheit...or she can just get too cold.

Right now, I think the critical situation dictates food and warmth. Supplements, etc...other care and treatments can perhaps come later, but NOW you wanna see if she/he can pull through the first several hours of being your patient. Having been outside in the wind, she has exposure issues so getting her body temperature up to normal is important...followed by hydration (which formula would have supplied).

Keep an eye out for these red flags:

1) listlessness and eyes closed

2) laboured breathing

3) phlegmatic breathing

also, did you have a good look to see if there was any sign of injury (scrapes, abrasions, blood, etc )?

Nice job so far.


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## Jaye

Also...take a look at post #4 on this thread...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/how-much-and-how-often-to-handfeed-pics-51106.html?highlight=nipple

it is a less aggravating way (for both you and baby) to feed one this young. It mimics the parent opening the mouth and the baby sticking their beak into the mouth so it is engulfed by the parent's mouth.

I think you may have better results with that method...if you can get a baby bottle nib.

She is very young and small...don't overdo it on the food and try not to stress her too much. If things seem to be getting too crazy...just let her be and keep her warm until she calms....


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## ocipura

Jaye ! I actually bought nipples at the store yesterday and didn't buy a bottle. What was I thinking????

For now, I've switched to the plastic-baggie method from the link John D posted yesterday, which is similar. It has been working much better than the syringe/dropper that I was using at first, but it's still not ideal. I'm trying to come up with something else. I've sterilized a small bottle that my cat's antibiotics were in, and I'm thinking I might be able to attach a nipple to it, or just the tip of a rubber glove...we'll see!

Thank you SO much for the encouragement. I really needed to hear that I'm not killing this bird!! lol. 

We had a good feeding before bed last night with the plastic baggie, and I left him overnight, praying that he'd be warm enough and nothing would go wrong. This morning when I peeked in, he was very perky and greeted me with flapping wings, which made me feel really good! I'm uploading a video of our morning feeding. I've got to figure out a way to keep him warm DURING feedings, because as it is, he starts shivering about halfway through..I know that can't be good.

I didn't look him over for abrasions...actually at first was scared to touch him at all. But the lady at Petsmart did look around the wings and belly and such and didn't mention any problems. I did a little looking just now and don't see anything, but I don't know if I'd recognize a problem if I saw it....

Can you tell me anything else? Can I tell from his/her poops whether he's digesting food correctly, or getting enough?? At first when I got him yesterday, they were pretty ..pellet-like, almost. Like a glob that got hard rather quickly with lots of white. Now they are more like little worms, and mostly brown. Seem quite soft. And sometimes kind of stringy!


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## spirit wings

I do not see a plasitc baggie method in that link..?


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## Jaye

Initially the ball-like poops showed some dehydration...typical of a baby fallen from the nest. That it is more liquidy is good news.

I am actually NOT all that familiar with Dove poops...so maybe someone else can chime in with their opinion. Personally, I think the precise 'look' of the poops is still secondary right now. The important thing is that he/she made it thru the night and thru a few feedings and seems alert ! That is fantastic !

Heat....it's not just to keep him/her from becoming chilly (although a parent will sit on a baby this young since the feathers aren't in yet). A very warm environment helps kick in healing. Are you keeping him/her warm in the enclosure ? Many ways to do this...I am guessing you have already researched them: heating pad under a layer of towel and carrier partially covered, a space heater (but not electric coil/blowfan type) placed very near the carrier and the door to the room left closed, etc.

Plastic baggie is just as good as baby nipple...and you didn't err...there's no need for the whole baby bottle because the nipple will hold all the food this lil' cutie needs to eat in one serving. So you are right on track there. It's a MUCH safer way to feed a young baby or in your case, a young baby of a small species.
I use the syringe method and I still get jittery about it sometimes. So the baggie method is better, and your buddy seems quite happy with it.

Good news regarding no injury. Just wanted to make sure a predator hadn't tried to grab her/him and punctured the skin. Had that happened, she/he would need antibiotics quickly.

So, keep doing what you are doing...keep an eye out for those 'red flags' I noted and post back immediately if you see any. I have e-mailed a Canadian member and hopefully she will reply soon with some possible facilities which know something about avian treatment.

For now, peruse this and see if anyone is in your area. It was compiled by a wonderful member here and can be quite helpful sometimes:

http://www.pigeonangels.com/t224-matilda-s-list-united-states-o-w

(One thing to always be wary/careful of: when you call a wildlife rehab center, make sure they will not kill the dove should you bring it to them. Many ( I would hazard to say a slight majority) will do that with Feral Pigeons....Doves are probably a different story. But you want to be clear on it before you hand over the patient, because many places can be quite evasive about answering.
Avian vets less so...as they usually just treat any found Feral/Pigeon or Dove as long as the client pays for it. But again, check...because some places have strange ideas about treating Feral animals, birds in particular).


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## Jaye

spirit wings said:


> I do not see a plasitc baggie method in that link..?


First link is syringe, which she has now abandoned in favor of the baggie method....she hasn't posted second vid yet, I don't think.


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## spirit wings

Jaye said:


> First link is syringe, which she has now abandoned in favor of the baggie method....she hasn't posted second vid yet, I don't think.


she said john D posted it yesterday... I do not see it in his link..


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## ocipura

Sorry I was not clear! John D's link was this: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm And the baggie method is mentioned briefly under the feeding section

This is the video of our morning feeding today, with the baggie method. You can see he's quite alert and excited about feeding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eDtnzA3bnE He is also looking a bit healthier. He seems more able to walk a bit today.

I just did another feeding... it was about 2 hrs from his last one, and the crop seemed totally empty! I'm thinking that's a good thing. I was really confused the first day (yesterday) because I had read somewhere that they needed to be fed every 30 minutes!! I'm glad y'all cleared this up and now I know it can take a couple hours for the baby to be ready to feed again.

Also, I'm actually in Texas, not Canada. Do I sound Canadian or something?! (My friends tease me about this, but I'm definitely a Texan!)


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## spirit wings

ok...thanks for showing it to me..


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## ocipura

We have done the last two feedings with baby bottle nipple with the finger of a rubber glove over it, and this has gone well so far. Now that I'm more familiar with the crop I can tell when it's full, and I can tell that it is indeed emptying between feedings. Baby seems to be more and more alert, which is great.

But I'm still so ignorant and have so many questions!! If anyone has time to answer, I'd appreciate it. I'm searching around the net and the forums for information constantly - it's been my obsession for the last 30 hours, but I can only find so much on my own.

Am I correct in assuming he is between 5-10 days old, do you think?

Is there a way to tell his correct gender?

How much sleep do baby birds need? Yesterday I was so careful to let him rest quietly a lot as he seemed to be very sleepy, but today almost every time I look in on him, he is awake. Does he need to be left alone and unstimulated for some stretches of time? How sensitive is he to loud/sudden noises?

When will the body temperature be less of a huge deal? Right now I keep him in a shoe box that is mostly closed (lid tilted up about 45 degrees) to keep in the heat, but since he's awake more now I kind of hate to keep him in such a dark, enclosed area!

Why does he wriggle each time he does his little chirp? Why does his chirp sound so pathetic? Because he's weak, or just young, or maybe it's normal for his kind?

Why doesn't he chirp loudly and beg for food when he's hungry??

How quickly does imprinting happen? What are the signs of imprinting?

When I brought him home, my only thought was that he was going to die if I left him, and I couldn't bear it. But now that I have him, I see how hard it will be to let go if he survives. And I assume that since he's so young, he will be unable to survive on his own. I'll have to make a decision between keeping him regardless of rules or trying to get a permit. But in searching around the web I can't find anything about Texas state laws or how to get such a permit.

Bathing - Some people have mentioned bathing their birds. Is this a submersion thing? At what age is this okay? I can only get so much of the gunked-on formula off his feathers by wiping with warm water, but I'm afraid to bathe him because he always shivers when I wipe him down after feedings, so I think the water makes him lose a lot of body heat.

That's all I can think of right now! I'm just really grateful to those of you who are trying to help me and this baby despite my ignorance! Thanks!!


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## Pidgey

Sorry, looks like you're already imprinted. Can't tell about the bird, though--some of them do fine with their own kind after such an experience; some of them think they're human; some of them know what they are but decide it's better to reign supreme in the world of humans than serve in the world of doves.

They don't peep very loud at that stage.

Looks pretty close to 10 days-ish.

Nobody (including the bird) will know what gender it is until about the time an egg is ready to pop out.

The wakefulness sounds about normal for his/her age. They don't always sleep with their eyes closed, you know, and rather less later on. Truth be told, the shut eyes sounds more like dehydration than sleepiness per se.

There's a funny quirk about mourning doves--it can't be proven that they're feral versus domestic. That said, it's typical that nobody's going to force you into some kind of wildlife license.

Now that you're getting better at feeding, you might not need to bathe him until he/she gets old enough to do it him/herself.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Pidgey, thank you so much.

Obviously, I'm not a bird person! I completely forgot they sleep with eyes open. Well I'm glad he's not closing his eyes today very much, like he was yesterday.

He is getting more vocal, and today he is doing a lot of stretching his wings and legs. It's fun to watch


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## Jaye

Hi. BTW, I posted the wrong resources link in my last reply and have updated it in my previous post...as you are in texas, not Ca. There are some resources in texas, perhaps one is nearby (?)

I would not be 100% sure that the baby is imprinted and unreleasable. Mourning doves fledge VERY quickly...unlike Feral Pigeons.

But the thing is...UNLIKE Ferals, you cannot do a "Soft Release" method with a Mourning Dove...because the Doves in the wild/Feral world are very cautious and skittish of humans so would never allow one close enough.

If there is a chance of release, he/she would have to spend some time acclimating in an aviary or loft or such specifically intended for acclimation. There are some folks here in CA who do have this sorta setup...but I am not sure where you would find someone in texas.

With that said....Doves make great companion birds and their size and such means they are actually often a better fit for a house/apartment than a Feral Pigeon may be.

The thing is...and a lotta folks make this mistake...you cannot give your pal half of each life...i.e. an inside-outside Dove. If they bond to you, they should never be allowed to free-fly outside, because there are too many dangers of which they are unaware.

You could get a small fish tank to use instead of a box, this way she/he could have a lotta natural light during the day.

BTW...they are awake during daylight and wanna sleep at dusk....generally do not keep her up after dusk.

You are doing a hecka great job, so far !!!!


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## ocipura

Thanks again, Jaye. I did find a phone number for a wildlife rehabilitator that is about an hour away... I'm holding on to it, but I can't make myself call just yet.

Talked to my hubby last night about keeping him (Hubby is in Iraq), and he seems open to it. Of course... there's so much to consider. Pooping on furniture... getting along with my cat... buying or building a cage.... changing to seeds at some point, tho I gather that won't be for another couple weeks - is that right?

If I keep him, I would need to find an aviary vet? (I guess that's the term) Do birds get shots? 

We are definitely getting better at feedings and getting less and less messy each time. I'm kind of ready for him to start holding his own body heat so we can interact more, without me having to leave him on his heating pad. He now will crawl up onto the palm of my hand (he's done it twice) and seems to like sitting there. 

**edit**

Can someone give me some feedback on this poop?? They became this color yesterday (they changed from brown to tan). They have always come out with some (apparently) water, so I figured that was normal, but today they are more liquidy and slimy. Is this okay??


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## Jaye

Well...a single dove doesn't particularly need an aviary or coop...they can be quite happy in a birdcage of about 2' square...as long as they get some 'outside time' every day so they can fly/hop around a bit, hang out in the kitchen while you cook, or next to you while you watch TV or are on the computer, etc, etc. 
Those would be the times to keep the cat secured someplace else for a while. A cat scratch would be lethal to a Dove w/i 24-48 hrs if not treated. And as I said, Dove poops are much neater than Feral Pigeon poops.

Also, who knows ? Maybe someday you can get him/her a Dove friend. I would imagine a human-bonded Feral Dove would get along quite well with a domestic-bred handraised one. Maybe if you do keep her/him, you can get her sex-tested to determine gender. Not necessary at all, but I always like to know just for curiousity sake.

Avian Vet is the term...and yes. They are specialists, and while general vets oftentimes do their best with birds...they are usually not well-equipped to treat them for more than a brief situation.
Shots....no. Basically a once-a-year checkup unless something is wrong (looks sick ~ i.e. fluffed out feathers, lethargy, droopy or closing eyes, etc).

You may wanna do some research as to when a Dove fledges...as I said, my recollection is at about 2 weeks....hecka fatser than a Pigeon...so, once you start to see the more 'normal' looking feathery feathers, he/she will probably be able to retain body heat much better and be able to be out of the carrier a bit more.

Good that you found a rehabber...if you choose that route, explain the situation and ask them if they have the facilities, experience, or ability to acclimate an orphan Dove. Many rehabbers are quite nice...and many, honestly...are quite dogmatic. Feel out the conversation.

Keep it up.


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## ocipura

I'm not sure what you mean by dove poops being cleaner, but I'm getting worried. They are getting more and more watery. Now there is hardly any substance to them at all, just passing big puddles of mostly-clear water/slime. Been about half an hour since last feeding, and last several droppings have been just liquid. 

I'm not noticing breathing problems or listlessness, but I did catch him with his eyes closed. Only once, though.

I left him by the window for a few hours to get some sunlight... temperature was just below 90. Don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but thought I'd mention it.


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## Jaye

OK, not panic time.

As a backup plan, I would suggest you see if any Avian vet on Matilda's List is near you...just in case things start going awry. As I said, not need to panic....this is strictly for a Plan B....but it's always good to know the closest avian vet, and their hours, and all.

Keep an eye on the poops. The one in that last pic looks pretty good. It is a bit unusual to have no solid matter in them, repeatedly. But as he has a new meal in his crop, let's see what the next ones look like. If that happens again (clear no solids), post a pic of the poop and let us know.

As long as the sunlight wasn't direct on him/her for all that time, it should be OK.

Nothing much else to offer....if she/he still seems active and is eating well, then just keep going.


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## Dobato

Ocipura, hold off on feeding for a bit, can you tell me how this little guy's crop feels, is it going down, almost flat between feedings?..have you noticed an increase in the time it takes for the crop to empty?...what temperature are you feeding the food at?.... how thick are you making the formula up, how runny is it?...can you describe in detail, all the steps you take to make it. How warm is the area you are keeping him, for example, if you place your hand on the area he spends most of his time, is there a gentle warmth coming up, does it feel warm to your hand right away? Would you happen to have any apple cider vinegar around your house, or could you get some?

Karyn


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## ocipura

Hi guys..

He did have quite a few poops that were all liquid, no solids, but after a while things seemed to go back to normal. Tan wormy solids with some liquid. Some with more solids, some with less. I'm keeping an eye on things.

He wasn't in direct sunlight, no.

His "house" (box) doesn't feel warm to me, but I keep a thermometer in there and it consistently reads around 80. He likes to sit on the heating pad (which is underneath some padding), so it's definitely warmer there. He himself feels warm to the touch, and I watch to make sure he's not shivering or panting with mouth open.

Today he seemed kind of lethargic, but he perked up in the evening and seemed back to normal, so I'm hoping things are okay. 

Karyn --

The formula I use is called Lafeber's Nutri-Start. I make it in a tiny bottle (it holds 14 ml, but I don't fill it all the way. I put some powder in, then hot tap water, then shake till smooth, then add more powder and more water till I get about 5-7 ml and a consistency that is like runny pancake batter or like ketchup... thicker than milk, but easily pour-able. As I said, I make it with hot tap water, as hot as I can, because it cools off while I shake it. Then I place it in a little cup of hot water, so it warms from the outside. I feed baby through a nipple, and I can feel the food as it is being fed to make sure that it is not too hot. It also doesn't get cold because I keep the bottle sitting in hot water and just add a little at a time to the nipple.

He is eating more today, but I'm trying not to let him go overboard even tho it seems like he could keep eating forever. He eats usually all that I make, which is between 5-7 ml. Not sure of exact measurement. I try to feed till the crop seems full and then stop, but I'm so new at this it's sometimes hard to tell. I think I was actually maybe OVER feeding him yesterday.

He ate today around 8am, 11am, 2pm, 4:30pm, and 8pm (I held off the last feeding a bit because I wanted to do it not too early, since he won't eat again till morning). I am feeling the crop before feedings and it does seem to be emptying out, as far as I can tell. In what I think of as the lower throat, I can feel a little bone jutting out, and below that the "tummy" feels deflated. This is how it feels each morning and each time before feedings, and it seems empty to me.

I DO have some apple cider vinegar.

Also, today I gave him a little bath after a particularly messy feeding (this was after his poops started looking normal again, so it wasn't the cause of that) and he seemed to take a few drinks of water on his own! Is this good? should I be leaving water in his box?


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## Dobato

ocipura said:


> His "house" (box) doesn't feel warm to me, but I keep a thermometer in there and it consistently reads around 80. He likes to sit on the heating pad (which is underneath some padding), so it's definitely warmer there. He himself feels warm to the touch, and I watch to make sure he's not shivering or panting with mouth open.


We need to concentrate on getting his ambient temperature right, this may be a big part of your problem, as 80 degrees, while it may sound warm, is much too cool to be keeping a baby pigeon/dove at. This little guy needs to be kept at around 90-92 degrees for the time being (be careful about making it too warm, as this will be just as bad, or perhaps worse, than too cool).

Also, what I would like you to do is instead of using hot water from the tap to make up the formula, I want you to start with cold water and heat it up on the stove. If you have any experience with mixing baby formula up, there is a reason they tell you to boil the water, and then make up the formula, they never suggest using hot tap water. The reason being, while most time not a huge concern, the hot water tanks, and supply lines can harbor bacteria that my compromise an immature immune system. May not be an issue here, but once a baby is had some issues, I like to remove any all the wild cards I can off the table.

Mix the formula, let it sit covered for 15 minutes, in warm water if you like, and then adjust the thickness until it is the consistency of a melted milkshake, to reheat, just place the bowl that you mixed the formula into into a bigger bowl that has very hot water and stir until the right temperature is reached. I also want you to add 2 drops of the ACV to each 10mL of formula, this will help shift the pH of the crop/GI down, and doing this can be helpful when droppings start to look a little off, and we want to see if we can get away without resorting to prescription meds.

Here are a few links to read (you may have already) that may be of benefit to you understanding the whole process of raising one of these little guys up.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feeding-help-needed-for-newly-hatched-pigeons-47336.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-egg-is-hatching-and-i-dont-have-a-clue-47170.html

Please post some more photos of his droppings tomorrow and keep an eye on the crop to make sure it continues to empty in a timely manner.

Good luck with him,


Karyn


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## ocipura

Every morning I pray for strength to get thru the day! This lil' guy is wearing me out! lol

I'm not familiar with preparing baby formula, except for during a few times babysitting. When I've done it, I've only done it in the microwave, and then shake well to remove hot spots. But I will try the boiling method with ACV. Whatever is best for baby! I guess I was just trying to follow the directions on the food, which said to use hot tap water, as it didn't need to be "cooked."

I bought a real baby bottle yesterday, so I thankfully have something that should be able to survive the boiling temperatures. The container I was using before was too thin of plastic.

BTW, Yesterday when I said he is eating a full 5-7 mL at each feeding - that wasn't correct. I wasn't taking into account the spillage. He is probably getting a couple mL less than I actually prepare. 

The thermometer, if it sits on the heating pad where baby sits, reads around 90 degrees... is this not good enough?? If not, I don't know what to do other than go to the store any buy a lamp, but I'd really rather avoid that .....

Pics:

These were his overnight droppings









This is his morning "empty" crop








and


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## Pidgey

As many feathers as he's got, you don't really need to worry too much about temperature at this point. He should be well enough into regulating his own metabolism by this point to be okay in your house methinks--just keep an eye on him.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Michy, we are not trying to cook the hand-feeding formula, we are using cold fresh water, that will have no issues with it to, then to heat this water up to very hot, but no need to boil, let it cool down a bit, until it's about the temperature of hot tap water and use this to make up the formula. 

Getting a rough idea in real numbers is always a good idea when feeding, but the most important thing is the crop, is it fill nicely, not too full, as you say, they can waste a good bit and if you are only going by numbers you can be deceived about how much food you actually got into the little guy.

That's a good temperature, and if you have a very small, fuzzy/soft stuffed animal, you could try putting this in with the little guy for something to snuggle into.

Droppings look OK, keep and on the crop for continuing to empty well, at this age this were most issues come from, and all his temperatures, food and surroundings, keep adding the ACV, and you should be on the right track.

EDIT: Thanks, Pidgey for the input, I always worry about them being too cool, when young like this, when I start to hear crop/GI issues may be rising. Michy, if Pidgey says ambient temperature is not a real concern anymore, then don't worry about this, keep him at a nice room temperature and don't fret about the 90 degrees.


Karyn


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## spirit wings

I think your doing a fantastic job..this hand feeding a dove is not easy..and in the last pic of the poops they look pretty good to me...I have two domestic pigeons almost at the same age..a bit older.. but they are getting intersted in seeds now and picking at them.. I would get some grains and start putting them near him and pecking with your finger to get him interested or just used to seeing the seeds..and even popping a few of the peas in the back of the throat and he will swallow them.. I left seeds out for my two and this AM..they were "playing" with them and eating a few...doves mature faster than pigeons so he may be ready to start checking out some grains now..or soon.


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## ocipura

He is definitely getting more and more feathers each day, and I was getting the feeling that he was keeping warm better than at first, so that's good to hear.

Also, OK, I won't boil! Just cold tap water and heat up in a bowl of hot water. 

Did first feeding of the day this way and he had his first 2 poops, which looked pretty normal. Now he is in his box with eyes closed... Is having eyes closed *always* a bad thing??? He does perk up, then keep closing them. Jaye said I should watch for that. 

I'm also super confused about how much he is eating or should be eating. Bottle I was using before claims to hold 15 ml, but when I fill that with water and pour into the baby bottle, the baby bottle claims the same amount is 30 ml...  Whatever that amount is, he's eating just under half of that.

Why does it all have to be so complicated?  Argh!

Edit: 

As far as pecking, yesterday and today I have seen him pecking at his bedding a bit, especially when it's time for a feeding and he is getting anxious for me to get to it. And this is without me ever showing him any finger-pecking. So maybe he's about ready for that. IDK. I'll have to figure out what kind of seeds to buy, I guess.


----------



## spirit wings

feed untill the crop is full like a little bean bag..what that amount is..may be 15ml..sounds about right..15 to 20 mls three times a day should be enough..but you have to watch the crop..if it is not empty..just wait to feed untill it does..when he starts pecking seeds on his own you can cut it down to two times day..then one..then he will be eating seeds..on his own..


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## Dobato

Michy, yes, glad we got his temperature sorted out. No need to boil, we are just trying to get the water temp up to about 160 degrees, then cooled down some, to use. As I mentioned, and Spirit Wings agrees, his droppings look decent, for being on formula, they will be much dryer and more well formed when he moves to a seed diet.

He looks bright in the photos, droppings are good, so I would not worry about him being a little closed eyed, right after getting a crop full of warm food. When in doubt, break out the cooking measuring spoons, a cooking tablespoon is equal to 15mL and they are very precise, so you can use these to be accurate when measuring amounts for him, but like I mentioned, once the crop is nicely full, knowing how much you really got into him is not as important.

And I agree, it's a good idea to spread some seeds out and start to peck with him at them with your finger.

Karyn


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## Jaye

I agree with all the advice given today. No, if he has a nap after a meal, that's not all that odd (don't you feel like doing that, sometimes ? I know I do...most of the time !).

It's just if it is happening a lot. I agree, from the pics and his stature and manner, he/she looks to be doing pretty well !


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## Quazar

Michy, Ive been following this thread & your doing a great job with this little one.
He/she looks so cute in the videos & pics.
As well as pretending to peck at seeds with your finger, you can also moisten your fingers with warm water (this would feel a bit like the inside of its mothers beak) and get him to nuzzle in (like he does with the plastic bag & formula) 
If you have some seeds in your hand, you can use your thumb to roll them down your fingers towards his beak & he should open & guzzle some down.
Heres a pic fom another post to show what I mean










Again, your doing a great job, he/she certainly wouldnt have survived without you rescuing him


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## ocipura

I know I've been such a pest with my cluelessness, but thank you guys so much for all your encouragement and advice! I don't know what I would have done without you!

Birdy had one "empty" poop (all liquid) today, but other than that they have looked very good. He is preening lots and stretching his wings lots, and he has begun standing on his feet sometimes rather than what I guess is his ankle. 

Tomorrow I will head to the store for some seeds. Is there any kind in particular I should get?

One other thing - he acts hungry before I feel that his crop is completely empty sometimes. I assume it's still best to have him wait to eat until the crop seems empty all the way?

Today we are going longer between feedings... I don't think this is a bad sign so much as me understanding him and his needs better. He has had some naps with closed eyes today, but overall seems very alert and happy, so I think things are good! 

Thanks again, everyone. Your support has been MOST helpful!!


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## Dobato

Yes, better to let the crop empty 90%+ before feeding again, as this will be best, as putting new food on old food can create some problems. As he gets some more muscle mass, tone and strength in his legs he will stop sitting back as you describe, this should happen in the next few days. Here is a suggestion for a seed mix to get him, it's made for doves, but any pigeon/dove mix should do well. Glad things seem in hand, you're doing well.

http://www.petsmartdeals.com/bird/food/petdovesuprememix.htm

Karyn


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## ocipura

Thanks, Karyn!

You guys have done as much to save Birdy as I have! 

I uploaded a video of one of today's feedings 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ams58V0vquw

And here's a pic of him & his full crop!


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## Quazar

Hes certainly coming on, and nuzzling in to the food well, you shouldnt have any probs when he starts on some seeds, from the way he follows your hand he knows your fingers are feeding him 

btw, when your posting vids from you tube, an easy way to do it is type
[ yt] then code after the = sign in the link [/yt ]

so that would be [ yt]Ams58V0vquw[/yt ] (without the spaces)

and that posts the video direct on the post rather than just a link to click 
saves browsers opening another page 

Like so ......


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## ocipura

Very good! I'll do that from now on! 

On a side note, I gave Birdy a quick bath tonight because I was a bit worried about how he seemed to have more poop than I would like stuck around his bum-feathers. I tried to wipe it off, but it wouldn't come, and he had some formula caked on his breast, too, so I just thought I'd give him a quick dip. Afterward, I had him held against my chest, and he surprised me by climbing up my shirt! I went to grab the camera, but before I could take a picture, he was up on my shoulder and *completely* tangled in my hair. And tickling my neck like crazy. It was quite an adventure lol

Looking back at my feeding video from just 2 days ago, I can't believe how much bigger and older he looks now. Growing so quickly!


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## pdpbison

Hi ocipura,


The poops shown in the latest image are typical of an evolving, quickening Canker/Trichomoniasis infection ( which can be located in various areas and multiple areas and sometimes visible in the Throat as cheezy inflamitory debris matter)...probably also accompanied by Yeast troubles in the lower GI and possibly in the Crop also.

This syndrome would tend to prove fatal if not addressed correctly...and, in this case, soon.

Do monitor the Crop's passing of foods, and note any slowing with that, and if slowing, hold back on the feeds...or let them fast.


Keep his Vent clean and do not permit urate materials to accumulate on the Feathers there...use tepid water ( in a Bowl or a soft steam from a Tap ) and finger tips to 'massage' the material off and away as often as needed.

This is very common with hand raised Morning Doves and Pigeons...especially with naive formula preperations.


Please ask the various members for details on treating these two ( so often concurrent ) illnesses.


The usual Medications would be Metronidazole ( for the Trichomoniasis ), and, Medistatin for Candida/Yeast infection.



Best wishes,


Phil
Lv


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## ocipura

Phil, what??? Are you talking about the "overnight poops" I posted yesterday morning? Everyone else said they were fine??

What exactly is the problem with the poops??? I'd like to know what it is I was missing, since I thought they were looking good... 

What is the vent???


----------



## Dobato

Michy, Phil may mean that there is a tinge of yellow color to the urate part of the droppings (the white part) and when this happens it can be indicative of yeast and/or canker (Trichomoniasis) issues present or developing.

Phil, has not been around much of late, but may have as much experience raising and dealing with wild doves, as any body here, so when he posts, we should pay close mind to what he is saying. I put down the tinge to lighting conditions and maybe minor yeast issues that the ACV would hopefully deal with. If Phil has posted and is concerned, it may be prudent to treat with a short could of a medicine called Metronidazole that can be picked up from tropical fish stores, it would be a product called Metroplex, by Seachem. Metronidazole is a very safe and well tolerated medicine.

Phil, good to see you posting .

Karyn


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## ocipura

Ugh!!

It's certainly hard to get a pic with good lighting because flash over-exposes.... I don't feel it's yellow, but I trust you guys more! I've looked up a local shop that is called Aqua Pets that specializes in birds and fish, including saltwater fish... I assume that would be the place to go. Maybe they can also hook me up with a nearby avian vet. (I've searched online to no avail so far.) They don't open for another 4 hrs, so I'll check on it when I can..

Till then, Birdy's crop was empty this morning and he eagerly accepted his feeding (made with cold tap water and 2 drops ACV, sat for 15 mins, warmed by sitting in a bowl of hot water, served through clean nipple)... He is alert and seems thoroughly happy & healthy. Hope this new problem can be cleared up quickly. I will try to take more poop pics today.


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## doveone52

Yes, when Phil speaks, I listen. Without cultures, it's really impossible to know exactly, but Phil has a good instinct for these things and I wouldn't hesitate to follow his and Karyn's advice. With pigeons and doves, by the time they start to actually look sick it could already be too late!
Don't mean to frighten you, but a good thing to keep in mind. He looks great and you are doing so well with him!


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## Dobato

Michy, they should have Metroplex, but a few other names for what we would want from a tropical fish store are FishZole or Hex-A-Mit, all three of these medicines are 100% Metronidazole and are very easy to mix up and dose, you will need to pick up a 1cc syringe (the kind without a needle attached) to dose with (most drug stores sell these for about $1.00). If they say they have something else that is Metronidazole, make sure it is 100%, please check the bottle/package to make sure the ingredient listing says "Metronidazole" and nothing else.

I forgot to mention, native species doves are protected, meaning technically only a licensed wildlife rehabilitator is supposed to be doing what you are doing, you can rescue one, but you are supposed to locate and turn the rescue over to a licensed facility/person within a set amount of time. If you take this little guy to a vet, and they recognize him as protected, in a worse case scenario, they may be obligated under law not to turn him back over to you, even if you are saying he is a pet, as native species can not be pets.

Karyn


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## ocipura

Thanks, Karyn, I was concerned about something like that (the vet). But all the same, I should probably look in to finding one, just in case. If something is seriously wrong, I'd like to be able to have him get help. And maybe if I search around I can find someone willing to ...look the other way. We'll see. Hopefully he won't need a vet at this stage, though. 

I've also written down the info regarding the medicine I need to find.


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## Dobato

My feeling is we can manage right now, but it would be good to start, even now, finding a vet who will look after your "pet", without a lot of questions. I also want you to up the ACV to 4 drops to each 10mL of formula.

Karyn


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## Jaye

Well...if you go....basically, you wanna make sure the stuff you get is 100% metronidazole, no additives (oftentimes fish med versions have additives).

Personally...with all due respect....the Metro at this point is covering a base which may or may not need to be covered. I do not see the poops as alarming. 

I am not sure this is a proper reading of those photos, so I would not be jumping on that boat yet. From the vids & the way you describe your pal's activity level, it is not indicative of a Canker patient. Could be, but most others who have been viewing the poops did not raise that flag....so...maybe, maybe not.

But dosing with Metronidazole should not hurt anything, should you choose to begin and keep all bases covered. It's a hecka small birdie, so it'd be a hecka small dosage.

Call the fish place and ask...saves you a trip. You want 100% Metronidazole powder or tabs. If they don't have it, order from Jedd's online (call them, don't use online order form) and have them Priority or Express mail you some. Fish Zole is the brand they sell. Check back here for dosages. I think if you can get some w/i next 24-48 hrs. that should be fine.

I really think you are doing a good job.


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## ocipura

Birdy's going to have to hang on for 24-48 hrs as you said. The store I thought was best bet turns out to be closed on Sunday, though online it said otherwise. Petsmart and Petco don't carry. Other pet store doesn't carry "fish stuff" any more... 

Tomorrow I will go to that one store, that was closed today. Or at least call them. And if they don't have it, I'll order it as Jaye said.

I also failed to find any seeds intended for doves or pigeons, so that will have to wait, as well. If the store I check tomorrow doesn't have them, what other kind of seeds would be okay? Canary? "Small Bird?" 

*I'M* having a rotten day, but Birdy seems just as great as usual, so I'm grateful for that.

*Edit*
I guess I see the yellow tinge you are talking about, Karyn. It's not really what I thought you meant. Some poops have white stuff, and that seems white to me. But it's the liquid coming out with them that seem tinged yellow. I think when that dries on top of the white stuff it leaves a yellow tinge - and also on the paper towel. IDK, maybe everything is tinged yellow. Hard to tell. I can't get any decent pics, though, because the darn sun won't come out. I've tried flash, no flash, flashlight!, extra lights, going by the window...but everything comes out dark. Meh.

Is it okay to refrigerate formula for a couple hours, then reheat?

Is there anything that can be done for all the dander?? Is it always going to be this bad? Every time he flaps I get a face-full.

What is the vent?

Birdy did his very first flutter/hop thing and jumped up about ....2-3 inches, from the inside of the box up to the lid. It was super cute.


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## Dobato

Jaye said:


> Personally...with all due respect....the Metro at this point is covering a base which may or may not need to be covered. I do not see the poops as alarming.


Jaye, the dropping in this photo/post, did set off a little itch in my mind about perhaps running a course of Metronidazole, but sometimes I can over think things, so I let it pass. With Phil saying that he feels doing this would be a prudent thing to do, and with small hints at things not being 100%, I tend to agree.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=567953&postcount=18

Karyn


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## pdpbison

> These were his overnight droppings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is his morning "empty" crop
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and



Hi ocipura,


Yes...this image ( but also to some degree, the prior one).

And...the overall details you have supplied as well.

All underlie my last night's mention.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison

Anyway...if I had a Columbiform of any kind, of any age, making those poops/urates...

They would promptly be on ACV-Water, and, Metronidazole.

And, I would also keep the Enroflaxyn handy.


I did not say anything about 'yellow' Urates.

I said the over all pattern of the droppings, and, I will add, the overall pattern of everything, suggest illnesses ( plural) which are evolving.


This in my opinion would be Trichomoniasis, Yeats/Candida and ( the more I think about it, ) probably a Bacterial also.

Any one of thse can soon lead to all three, especialy in youngsters.


Instances of people permitting ( even minute amounts of ) human Saliva to come on contact with a youngster's Beak, Food Spoon, or whatever, also can evolve into a combination of illnesses for the youngster, which will see exactly these sort of droppings, signalling the evolving gain of the illnesses.


This often shows tinges of blood or syrums in the fecal material, and or can be some order of haemoragic enteritis.


One must limit one's self to entirely "dry" kisses of the Bird's Head or Back or shoulders and so on, and, not permit any damp or wet kisses or Beak or Nares kisses to occur. Any Saliva on the Feathers, the youngster preens, and gets the germs into their system. As well as not to tatse the formula in ways which could allow any contamination from our Mouths to happen to the formula.


The 'Vent' is where the droppings come out of.

That you mention there has been poop/urate material starting to adhere back there is one of ( the several ) indicators I had found significant.

No healthy youngster or adult has material adhering back there.


ACV-Water, ( to the tune of say 4 Tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon of Water ) if used to mix the formula, would help with probable Yeast/Candida infestations in the Crop of further GI areas...but, 'Medistatin' would be better ( or called for definitely, if things were more pronounced).


In Nature, Dove or Pigeon Babys of granivorous habit, the Babys would be on all Seeds ( and some Grit ) by probably ten days old if not sooner, and, mostly Seeds, with only some Crop Milk days prior.

When we raise them, we can combine small whole Seeds ( and some fine Grit ) with formula for the period beginning around eight or nine days, and, continue with it from there.

By two weeks or so, we can work with the youngster for them to eat small whole dry Seeds from a 'Finger Beak' which imitates the Beak of the Parent Bird, and, this works very well.

This is what the image shows that quazar had posted, and, elaborated on correctly - 




Quazar said:


> Michy, Ive been following this thread & your doing a great job with this little one.
> He/she looks so cute in the videos & pics.
> As well as pretending to peck at seeds with your finger, you can also moisten your fingers with warm water (this would feel a bit like the inside of its mothers beak) and get him to nuzzle in (like he does with the plastic bag & formula)
> If you have some seeds in your hand, you can use your thumb to roll them down your fingers towards his beak & he should open & guzzle some down.
> Heres a pic fom another post to show what I mean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, your doing a great job, he/she certainly wouldnt have survived without you rescuing him



Along with this, if not prior to this, to lead up to this, one can get the youngster 'nuzzling', and, guide their little Beak to some tepid Water, and, keeping your finger tips softly on the Beak, they will drink.


Babys which are fed formula need to drink plain tepid Water between meals, usually more than one drinking session between each formula meal.


Once they have drank this way, with your finger tips as parent 'Beak', they will gladly eat the small whole Seeds from your finger 'Beak' also.

Soon then this alleviates the need for and the usual mess and troubles of the formula, though one can continue with the formula untill the Bird themselves indicates they would prefer not to bother with it any more, which depending on species and the individual ( and whether they ever really liked the formula offered in the first place, ) will vary considerably.

With this, soon, the Bird is also interested in pecking and self feeding...which one does with them and supervises.

Baby Doves and Pigeons I get in, we go through these stages of things, to where, at two weeks, they are self feeding with supervised pecking of small whole Seeds, as well as 'Poppa Hand/Finger Beak' to eat from, as well as formula ( for the added nutrients it can have, especially of one make it one's self from scratch, or, augment a store bought powder).


So...some more info for you.


Phi
Lv






Urates seen in the images so far, are a consistency which is signalling a Liver burdon, and, at times, probably a kidney problem. Fecal matter suggests a lower GI problem and maybe some Yeats/Candida.

Whether the Urates become 'yellow' ( full of spent Leucocytes from fighting infection) or not...

And, if not treated, or clearing up on it's own, they probably would or will become yellow.


Lastly, a Heating Pad with soft layers of cloth or Towelling on it, for the comfort of an invalid or pre-endothermic 'Baby' or iffy older Baby who's endothermy is weak or compromised by illness...

The Thermometer which one could lay on to the cloth to tell the temperature should read about 103 degrees Farenheit...as well as that the Cage or other arrange, should be draped on all sides so NO draft or moving Air may interfere with the value of or availability of the warmth.


In a clime where the ambient indoor Temperatures ( here for example ) may be in excess of 103 F, then of course, this need not be observed so closely as it would need to be in cooler climes or seasons.


Properly endothermic Healthy Babys or Youngsters will feel VERY warm indeed, much hotter or warmer than we are, all on their own, if laying in one's Palm.

They will be running around 105 or so, and loosing lots of Heat through their developing Feathers ( Adults keep the Heat in greatly more effectively with fully developed Feathers and Down and so on).

102 or 103 is about what they would net if being under Momma or Poppa, who part their underfeathers to have their bare and especially warm for the purpose skin on the Baby, as well as sealing the Baby from drafts or moving Air, etc.
Having the Heating Pad covering arranged where the Heating Pad is only under half of it, allows the Bird to find for themselves some margain or edge which is the most comfortable for them, if desired.


Long Winded Post, but, I wanted tp cover some of the several things which were of concern or interest to you.


Best wishes...


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## ocipura

[ indignant]I admit I've made some mistakes, but Birdy has never come in contact with my saliva, nor has he had any contact with my cat... So we can rule out THOSE two things as any cause of illness. [/ indignant]

Phil's doom & gloom is *really* getting me down, but then I go interact with Birdy and I'm cheered up. It's so hard to believe he might be unwell... =/ But I am still going to try and get ahold of that medicine today. I'm sorry you (Phil) feel I'm not doing well caring for this bird. (BTW, I know you didn't mention anything about yellow droppings. That was Karyn, and I addressed my comments about it to her specifically... We made some assumptions about what you were talking about, since you didn't give much info the first time...)

I had no idea Birdy was supposed to be drinking water - I was under the impression that all his water was supposed to come from the formula, but this is something easily remedied. We'll start on that today. Also, I'll be trying to get some seeds... But I need to ask again - If I can't find seeds specifically for dove/pigeons, what kind am I supposed to get??

I will be watching his vent to make sure it stays clean. I only found something stuck on it that one time.


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## Jaye

Let's not all get too defensive or over-sensitive about all of this. What it boils down to is Phil thinks there's definitely Canker going on...and, based upon your posts, Oci...I think that is jumping to conclusions.

In a situation such as this...the 'safe' thing to do is get hold of some of the Metronidazole and administer it. If your pal does have Canker (Trich) then all should be well...and if not, then no harm done.

If you do end up ordering thru Jedd's, have them do a quick-ship on it. Foy's also carries and you can do the same. Just remember to call and speak to a human. It'd be extra-safe to have the stuff in-hand no later than tom'w.

Baby looks good. I think the overwhelming feeling here is that you have done nothing less than an AMAZING job. 

Doves are tricky, as I said a while ago....they tend to be very skittish and not particularly agreeable to human-care. So...kudos to you, Oci.

Your assumption was correct....your pal is fine with the formula because, yes, it provides the hydration needed. Nothing in this scenario is suggesting your buddy is dehydrated. 
The point being, the baby will come off formula eventually and then she/he will be relying on water...so might as well begin to introduce it to him/her now. Just don't 'squirt' the water in the mouth with a syringe, because they can aspirate. Try the tip-of-beak-dipping method.


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## ocipura

Sorry, not intending to come across as overly-defensive. I know that I've made some mistakes.

Anyway, now I'm seeing some signs of possible labored breathing. I don't know whether or not this is related to how I tried to guide his beak to water this morning. He did not like it, and I decided to stop after a couple tries and not do that again for at least a couple days, as he did not seem ready for it...

**Edit** The "possible labored breathing" seems to have passed. No worries there. **/Edit**

Any advice on the seeds?

Poop pics... First pic shows some of the overnight droppings...
Second pic shows a different cluster of droppings, once over-exposed and once under-exposed (just CAN'T get any good lighting!) ... there are several old ones and one at the bottom which is fresh. Phil said the yellow might INCREASE? Well, it does seem that it has somewhat..


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## Pidgey

With all the excitement in all the threads and news that I'm following, I've forgotten... what are you feeding this guy? Is it Kaytee? For the record, Kaytee does cause a yellow-tan shift in the color of the urates from a somewhat-more-white. I've always wondered about that, but there it is. It's always been that way with formula. The other interesting thing about using formula is that poops stay watery because they are actually getting more water than they need.

One interesting thing to note is that the humidity of an area will dictate to some extent how much water any of us need. If one lives in a very dry place (like a desert), one will require a lot more water than someone living in a rather more humid place just due to evaporation out of the lungs with every breath. Just something to think about...

Oh, yeah... another thing: lighting affects the color cast of pictures quite a bit. Incandescent bulbs cause a yellow shift; fluorescent bulbs cause a yellow-green shift; camera flashes often cause a white-blue hot one. It's called "color temperature". Our minds do a fantastic job of helping us "normalize" our perceptions except when looking at pictures. And computer displays don't seem to be that equal either. That said, it's not really easy to diagnose from color pictures on computer screens--too many unknowns.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

The formula is actually called Lafeber's Instant Nutri-Start Baby Bird Formula. 

Texas is relatively humid - and moreso in the last week, due to weather.  I don't think he's dehydrated. I'm going to hold off on the water thing for a little while yet. We'll see how he does with seeds. I assume the more seeds he eats the more extra water he'll need since he'll be having less formula.


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## Pidgey

While I've never used Lafeber's (or even seen it), I'd imagine that there's not a nickel's worth of difference. It's all mostly cornmeal and other ground grains with some enhanced vitamin and probiotic additives. 

Yeah, I was just down in Texas a couple of days ago--flew into Houston and drove to Beaumont for a couple of days for a job. It's almost ALWAYS humid there. I think I absorb more water out of the air there than I drink most of the times that I've been there.

Yes, when they're making the switch to seeds, they have to start learning to drink (obviously). I've actually had several youngsters raised in my loft that start getting sick and sleepy as they're "weaned" from their parents feeding them that I have ended up having to "teach" them what water is, where the waterers are and how to drink. I have to force their beaks down into water several times, show them my finger attempting to drink and keep them at the waterer for awhile to get it in their heads. Once the lightbulb flashes on, they seem to REALLY "get it". Some take a few times of this. You can just see it hit them when they stand there with the inside of their beaks wetted and then... <BOOM!> ...they dive their heads into the water and suck it up like there's no tomorrow. I guess the toughest part for them is that they've never had "cool" water before--it's always been warm from their parents so they just don't recognize it when it's that cold. The funniest part is when the occasional fledgling like this starts literally protecting the waterers against all comers like it's a life-or-death matter for him or her. That always cracks me up.

I suppose it's possible that we even misidentify "young bird sickness" sometimes for youngsters that don't learn to drink. When they don't learn to drink, they really go downhill and will end up in a corner emaciating away and dying if you don't do something. Of course, all the medications that you throw in them won't do a bit of good under those circumstances. Their fecals will show massive infections, too (I've done them many times) and all because they simply haven't learned to drink or recognize liquid water outside their parents' beaks.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Sure hope Jedd's is reliable after giving them my payment info >.>

The Aqua Pets store didn't carry the metronidazole under any of those names, nor had they heard of it. Dumb.

But I should have it by tomorrow, now.


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## Dobato

Michy, please don't get down about Phil's post, these is a lot of information there and I think you keyed in on the most important thing right now. Your little guy is acting and looking well and that's always what we are looking for. Pidgey has covered a good deal of the information on how formula can shift color in droppings, it was not so much for me the shift in color of the urates that itched my mind but the slightly mucusy look and spider pattern of the urates in the dropping that caught my eye.

Jedd's is very good, been around for years and I use them myself all the time and always have been very happy with their service.

Karyn


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## ocipura

UGH!!! Kaytee failed to mention in their ingredients that the bag would be full of BUGS!


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## Jaye

That's unusual, but not unheard of....goes w/o saying, return it all...don't use any of that food....


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## Dobato

ocipura said:


> UGH!!! Kaytee failed to mention in their ingredients that the bag would be full of BUGS!


This does happen from time to time, the easiest way to tell if a bag is free of pests is to check for excessive dust/debris in the bag, once you see lots of fine dust, you know the bag most likely has pests, strange with Kaytee though, as they have a good reputation for quality. Take it back and exchange it, as mentioned.

Karyn


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## ocipura

Yeah, I'll have to go back tomorrow and return it.

Also, Jedds called to say they had my package ready to go out but UPS never came to pick it up. So I'm not going to have it till Wednesday. 

Can y'all give me some advice on something? Every night it seems I'm left with the option of putting Birdy to bed for the night with a half-empty crop or staying up an extra hour or two to feed or else feeding before crop is empty. I already know option #3 is not the best... I guess I just want to be reassured that it's okay and he's not going to get malnourished if I send him to bed half-full, so to speak... is this okay? 

I've attached another pic of droppings from this evening. And a couple more for your enjoyment.  Look how long his tail is getting! I can hardly believe how fast his feathers are coming in. I feel like if I stop and watch I could surely see them grow right before my eyes...


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## Pidgey

Hmm... that's another reason that I tubefeed--takes less time. It's actually pretty near this stage of life that the parents of baby doves start working with them on flying and other such stuff. They fly even before their wings are full length. That said, it might be a good time to start putting small seeds in front of him and tapping it with a pencil or your finger to start giving him the idea that it's food. See how that works.

As to how much food they need to get a day, I'm more used to pigeons and tend to base their daily intake on a mathematical formula. In the real world, some get more and some get less depending on the success of the parents to find food, naturally. Surely there'll be somebody on here more used to taking care of doves that can better answer the question.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Pidgey said:


> It's actually pretty near this stage of life that the parents of baby doves start working with them on flying and other such stuff. They fly even before their wings are full length.


He flaps so hard sometimes I swear he's going to achieve lift-off any moment. I almost want to give him a toss, but I don't want to scare him. I do let him ride my hand/finger up and down a bit. Can't tell whether or not he likes the motion tho.


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## Pidgey

It wouldn't be the world's worst idea to start carrying him around a bit outside, and then in-and-out. A funny thing often happens when we raise pigeons and doves inside only until they're already flying well--they get disoriented when outside. They can even seem to not recognize us and get virtually lost when only a few feet from the door. They sometimes will fly up to the roof of the house, sit and stare and then just take off in a panic, not knowing where they are. 

That's why it's better to start getting them used to being outside on you. It's even a good idea to set them down on something, take a few steps back and then come back forward to them and pick them up again. Let them ride around on your shoulder (with a small towel). The entire release period is VERY nerve-wracking.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Thank you. I need all the straightforward advice I can get. I'm totally clueless!!

Even the towel comment was needed, cuz I'm sitting here reading through the forums wondering what people do with their birds on their shoulders...just let them poop all over?! I'm pretty paranoid about getting poop on places where it doesn't belong!

I was actually wondering also... if we decide to keep him, will he ever be allowed to fly a bit outside, just for some exercise, while being supervised? Or would that be too dangerous?


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## Pidgey

Can be pretty dangerous if you don't do your homework (getting him acclimated to being outside on your shoulder). It's one of those things that's always impossible to foresee at this point, whether or not you want to keep the little fellow. Their personalities at this stage are fairly dependent and that makes them seem so sweet, but there's no telling whether they will stay that way or end up ruling the house with an Iron Beak--it happens!

Out there in the real world, there's probably an ~80% mortality rate per year (pigeons have something like four clutches--two chicks to a clutch--per year). If the number of birds stays roughly the same, then that's how many have to die each year to maintain equilibrium. Pigeons and doves raised in a household often don't have or gain the respect or fear of predators that they should and, so, it's often tougher for them to make it "out there". That's the bitter truth here. If your house doesn't see much by way of predators (cats, hawks, etc.) ...and a bird can live in relative peace then it's obviously a lot easier. If not, then... prepare for heartache.

People have lived with doves indoors for years and years, too. I can think of one story on here in particular (a white dove) that's pretty neat--lemme' see if I can find it... okay, here it is:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/elderly-dove-28732.html

Pidgey


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## ocipura

What a sweet story. Really if I could have what I wanted for Birdy, that would be it. Pampered into old age.


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## Jaye

I gotta agree with that. People try very hard to make their Columbid friends inside-outside companions. Basically, companion birds who can go outside when they please. This won't work..it is sorta straddling 2 lives. Only in the case of a Feral who was found and nursed back to health when he/she was already an adult or adolescent would this work, because they have already learned the Feral ways from their parents and perhaps some Flockmates.

But in the case of Birdy...you found her/him as a baby....and he's bonding to humans now. So, since this is the case, he wouldn't know the ways of the Feral world, so things which we understand to be dangerous (predators, traffic, foul weather, etc)..he would have no knowledge of. I have read of and know of too many stories.incidents where folks did that and things seemed to go real well for a while...but those stories ended very, very badly.

Best to keep him/her inside, as a companion Dove...unless you decide the opposite - to find a facility which believes they could re-acclimate him to becoming a Feral Dove.

Either decision is valid. And folks often think that keeping a bird means 'life in a cage'....but that is very untrue. Most companion birds, these days, get out-of-cage time. If you really wanted to, you guys could build your pal a flight cage/enclosure in the yard or something so he/she can have some outdoors time.

So many ways to make the life of a companion bird enriched....maybe even get him another Dovie friend someday....or even a different species of companion bird, just for company.....


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## ocipura

Oh, I didn't mean to let him out as he pleases, or alone. But anyway, we'll see how it goes. 

I really think he could fly now if he had a little push into it! I wonder what will get him going, and what I"ll do with him once he does start. I better start looking for a cage . I thought it would be another week or so...


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## ocipura

Hi all... Birdy still seems to be doing real well. He's about to start flying at ANY moment. I haven't been able to do seeds with him yet... I took the buggy seeds back, and we checked two more bags which also had bugs. I had to leave, but the store has my number so they can call me when they get a shipment and/or find a clean bag. >.< 

I did, however, receive the Fish Zole today. Anyone wanna tell me what I'm supposed to do with it? lol


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## Pidgey

Exactly how is the Fish Zole packaged? Pills? Powder? If so, what kind and size? Just post the stuff that's on the package.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Fish Zole... 60 tablets. Each tablet contains 260 MG Metronidazole

Is this something that goes in his food? Cuz he is about to have his last feeding of the day pretty soon here..


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## Pidgey

Sorry, I was gone already. I usually give them a quarter tablet of a 250 milligram pill but this guy's a lot smaller than that. I'm expecting him to weigh something on the order of about 80 grams. That said, he'd be about a third of the size that I'd just a quarter tablet on. Therefore, you need to cut the tablet up in fourths, and then cut one of those pieces up in fourths, so a sixteenth of the total tablet. One a day for about five days oughta' do it. That particular medication is very forgiving.

Pidgey


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## Jaye

It is forgiving, indeed. But I am gonna guess Birdy only weighs about 80g or so. Even a full grown Mourning Dove is only, what ? 150-160g tops ?

You can also dissolve 1 tablet in 5ml of water, thus making a 50mg/ml suspension; then store it in the 'fridge.

Administer .05cc twice a day via syringe (this is a tiny amount), making sure you shake the liquid very well beforehand. Metro tends to settle and separate from water quickly.


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## doveone52

Really? Mourning doves are that light weight? My wild adult ones are bigger than my rollers and only sl smaller than my homers. Is that because they eat the same food as my pigeons? Sorry, didn't mean to distract!


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## ocipura

Thanks, Pidgey, but I'm not sure how to give it to him??


*Edit* Ooops. I see Jaye already addressed my question...

So I take it this is not something I could dissolve into his formula? We never had good success with syringe feeding, as he doesn't like to open his beak for me to insert something like that...In fact, I'm thinking it may be even harder now that he's older and more assertive. He already gets kind of upset when I try to guide his beak into the nipple for feedings, so I'm not sure about this whole syringe thing. I'd hate to waste the medicine, too..


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## Jaye

You _could_ do that...you could mix it with water, and then squirt the dosage into the formula, although in that case I would double the dosage because it's unlikely all of the dosage would adhere to the food and make it into him. 

It's a bit less precise, but as Pidgey says, the "-zole" type medications are very forgiving (one can be a bit imprecise in the dosages with no ill effects).


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## Jaye

doveone52 said:


> Really? Mourning doves are that light weight? My wild adult ones are bigger than my rollers and only sl smaller than my homers. Is that because they eat the same food as my pigeons? Sorry, didn't mean to distract!


Quite honestly...I would defer to you. I have only dealt with two injured ones, one being a fledgling. Those are my recollections based upon being weighed at the vet.

What are the weights of yours ????


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## Pidgey

Baby mourning doves usually hit about 80 grams-ish at the time of fledging, about when they start flying.

If memory serves...

They do get bigger and heavier, but they're still not pigeons.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Adult Morning Doves I have had ran around 100 to maybe 130-odd Grammes soaking Wet.

This is the Southern Mojave though, and maybe they run heavier/larger in other regions.

I am not sure this is even a Morning Dove, though it appears similar to one of this age in appearence. But it appears larger to me somehow, than a Morning Dove of this age.

Texas I think has some other Wild Dove Species in addition to having Morning Doves.


If wishing to provide medicine to such a small Beak, one way to do it is to make a known concentration in a small syringe, of say, one ML size.

And, to make up a few very lightly rolled 'Bread Balls', small ones, smaller than a small dried Pea...say, the size of a Milo seed..but not too tightly made...fairly loose.

Saturate the very small Bread Ball with as much of the solution as representes the dose one has calculated it to be, and, gently, 'Seed Pop' the now somewhat wet tiny Bread Ball, into the back of the Dove's Throat...and gently hold the Beak for them to swallow ( or they may spit it out).

Of course, this presumes the Dove has a clear Esophagus and is able to swallow the tiny wet Bread Ball.

Bread Ball must only be slightly wet, and not dripping or leaking...so, use two if need be, to get the dose required, rather than to over saturate a single one.


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## ocipura

Thanks, Phil, for the other suggestion on the medicine. Good to know we have options. 

Just an update for those of you who are interested... Birdy is doing great. I haven't noticed any changes in his droppings from the last photos, so that's why I haven't posted any new ones, but I've been working on uploading some more videos...

Birdy has started to fly. He picked it up so fast! In one day he mastered fluttering down from my hand to the table, then turning in mid-air to catch on to me instead of the table, then flying up out of a tall box on his own and flying across the room! The next day, he made two short flights from the dining room to the kitchen (when he saw me making his food and was super hungry!) - and this morning he did the same, but this time rather than jumping off the edge of the table, he took off right from his box - and instead of clumsily landing on whatever surface he arrived at, he aimed himself for me, I held out my hand, and he came to light on my finger as if we'd practiced it. It was so cute. 

I managed to get some bug-free wild bird seeds, and we spent some time yesterday practicing pecking at them. I saw him swallow some, but mostly he just picks them up and spits them out lol. I'll continue to have him work at it. We just can't do it when he's too hungry or he will be too busy nuzzling my hand for formula.

Since he has started flying, I attempted to build him a cage very similar to this: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f24/h...igeon-dove-cage-for-less-than-30-a-52224.html But as it turns out, the wire shelves I got have two size holes ...and even the smaller holes are too big to hold in Birdy. So until he grows into it.... I'm not sure. We're still trying to think of a good temporary solution. He spent the last two nights in a high-sided box, with his little shoe box in there with him, and a screen from one of our windows set on top so he can't fly out. It's not ideal....

Anyway, I've got to get this guy fed.....


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## ocipura

*help! *

Something is wrong... !!

Birdy is throwing up his breakfast. I'm not sure when he started. We fed around 9am, which was 80 mins ago. I walked past him several times between 9-10 and didn't notice anything... I went to go read a bit and clean the bathroom...then came back and noticed some food that looked like it had just been spilled on his washcloth. But that's not where we fed, so it couldn't have been spilled. Then we were practicing pecking at some seeds and he did it again, gagging and then spitting up formula. I don't know what's wrong 

We fed same as always... made with cold tap water, heated in a cup of warm water, normal consistency, 5 drops of ACV, and it was the 3rd time I'd put 1ml of the fish zole disolved tablet mixture in. He didn't have a problem with this being in his food the two times we did it yesterday, so I don't know why he would react to it now... I thought maybe it was because he got overly full, but if that's the case why would he wait an hour or longer to start throwing up? By the time I saw him gagging his crop was at least half-empty if not more... 

Since his feeding this morning he has been happily preening away, chirping when he sees or hears me... he hasn't acted as if he's feeling bad...what could be wrong?? Help please!


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## Pidgey

Well, have seen that before. Exactly how much food (formula) do you give him at a time?

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Maybe 18 ml? (At most) Not sure how much he spills. At breakfast today he spilled considerably less than usual, so he might have gotten close to the whole thing, which may have made him overly-full? I don't know. He hasn't spit up any more in the last half hour, but he is going to be hungry soon and IDK whether to feed him again or not.


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## Pidgey

Well... and how much does he actually weigh? That sounds pretty significant for a fledgling dove at this point. They eventually start slowing down their rate of growing and the amount they take in.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

I have no clue what he weighs, but I will try feeding him less.


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## Pidgey

To give you an idea, even I will eat too much if the food is unlimited and nobody tells me to stop...

Piggey the Plump


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## ocipura

Hey, I have no problem with it... I just wanted to be sure it wasn't anything more serious than a case of overeating.  I'm glad that you, at least, don't think it sounds too serious. 

I had been increasing his feedings lately because it seemed like his crop was emptying out faster... but I will cut back a bit and see how things go.


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## ocipura

Something is wrong...

He hasn't thrown up any more, but he is behaving oddly. He is acting very needy, like he doesn't want to be away from me. He is sleepy a lot today, with the eyes closing a lot. Also, he started doing something REALLY weird... leaning over on his side, almost like laying on one side, and then stretching the top wing directly up in the air and holding it there. 

He was not as enthusiastic about eating today...

The strange behavior, all added together, has me really worried. I feel like something is very wrong.

*Edit* Furthermore, I don't know if I'm over-analyzing, but he doesn't feel quite as warm this afternoon. I keep putting him on his heating pad, but he doesn't like to stay in here. I've got him now on my lap, and he is resting quietly..


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## Pidgey

Usually you see that behavior when they're out in the rain--it's their way of taking a shower and cleaning under the wings. Can you take a picture?

This little guy has already been on some antibiotics... was it just Metronidazole or were there others?

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Just Metro. Well, that and ACV.

he was doing it while we were pecking seeds. He was acting very lethargic, then lean over to one side and lift a wing. Then maybe peck listlessly at one seed. He would do it right up next to my hand. I tried giving him a pet under his wing, but then he'd lower it like he didn't want me touching there. I tried to take a picture, but then he stopped. I also looked for pics on google, but couldn't find anything similar.


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## Pidgey

Uhh... when they're ridiculously comfortable, they can act VERY spoiled like that. They kinda' lay on one side, sorta' propped up on that wing and sleepily survey their kingdom.

You're not... uhh... spoiling this bird, are you?

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Well, as to that... uh.. "spoil" is a rather...relative term


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## Pidgey

"Rotten"?

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Certainly not!


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## Pidgey

You wouldn't fib to me ...woodja'?

Pidgey


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## ocipura

My baby birdy is anything but rotten 

He doesn't get EVERYTHING he wants. Just most things. After all, I make him sit still for a clean up after his meals when he would much rather snuggle! 

In other news, he threw up a bit again >.< Wish I knew what was up with this little guy. Wish I could get him interested in water and seeds!

He hasn't done any more of the leaning and wing-raising so far. I forced him to take a nap on his heating pad and he seems more alert. Maybe he's not dying after all... heh


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## Jaye

Has his crop emptied at this point ? 

You said he threw up again at 2PM-ish. Was this after feeding #2 for the day ? or did you not feed him since he threw up this AM ?

The sleepy eyes/lethargy IS something of concern...it indicates he is/was struggling w/ something.

Does he seem better now ? Or about the same ? Or worse ?

What I am wondering is if this is a bit of aspiration.....Did you find an avian vet near you (I had mentioned to try to find one as a back-up, if you could). If the symptoms persist, it would be worth taking him to a vet in next 24 hours.....


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## pdpbison

Hi ocipura,


Please post continueing images showing good, close up, in focus images of the freshest poops.


Phil
Lv


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## pigeonmama

Pidgey said:


> To give you an idea, even I will eat too much if the food is unlimited and nobody tells me to stop...
> 
> Piggey the Plump


Next thing we know, we'll have to be shipping you to england to be knighted !!!
Daryl


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## ocipura

Ok, a sum-up of today... He started calling for me before I went to get him from his room, which was a first. So I got him around 8:30 and we fed at 9, a rather large feeding, maybe his largest. He seemed happy & eager, but lost interest in the food after a while. Probably I should have stopped feeding before that point. I think I'm just not used to what a full crop looks like when it's covered with feathers.

Around 10 or 10:30 is when he threw up - at least twice, probably 3 times. His crop seemed 50-60% empty at this time.

Due to Pidgey's lack of concern and Birdy's acting very hungry, I went ahead and fed him again around... 1:30 or so? His crop was emptied out. This feeding had the ACV but no Metro, and was slightly less than the first. He seemed tired before and after this feeding.

After a couple hours, he had dried off (he's always a bit wet after feedings since I have to clean him off), and we tried pecking some seeds again... He started acting lethargic & I started to panic. He rested in my lap for a while, then I forced him to take a nap in his box with the lid closed and the heating pad on. After a while I opened the box back up and he was much more energetic.

He chirped at me for a while, then we tried pecking seeds again and he threw up again, but otherwise was acting normal. I ended up putting him on the windowsill overlooking the backyard - he likes to look outside, and it's warm there. He sat there for a while, until we did the 3rd feeding just a bit ago - around 6pm. His crop was empty. This feeding had ACV and Metro, just like breakfast, and was around the same amount as the mid-day feeding. I'm having him take a rest in his box and dry off.


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## Jaye

OK....that's helpful. I would keep the feedings light for the next several. Please let us know if the closed eyes and lethargy shows itself again...or anything else unusual.


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## ocipura

Some recent poops from today. They are about typical of how things are, recently. Though some poops are much larger in quantity lol..

They are still tan-ish. The white part is still "spidery" as Karyn described it. It doesn't come out in a clump, which is I guess what it's supposed to do. There is quite a bit of liquid with each poop, and every day he has a few poops that are all liquid, no solid. But the solids always come back later. The liquid seems to be a bit less yellow than it was a few days ago, but that's the only difference I can see.

Sorry I couldn't get better pics.


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## pdpbison

Hi ocipura,



My original mentions still stand.


If this were a young Dove in my care, I would have been treating for Candida ( 'Medistatin' ) and Trichomoniasis ( 'Metronidazole' ) and, probably for a light systemic Bacterial infection, also ( 'Enroflaxyn' or maybe Oxytetracycline or maybe some Sulfa combination ) from first noting the various signs of the overall syndrome.


I believe you are now seeing the eventuations of what I had cautioned about originally, only now, you are getting to a point, where, from not having treated correctly or promptly, the Dove's itself is globally going down, and, their digestive system is going down, and, soon will not abide being fed at all, and, medicines would then have to be 'Tubed' in, along with adequate Hydration.

You probably have a few days remaining before things get to that stage.

Your Dove is going down, and, without appropriate treatment, will not likely survive for very long.


As Medistatin is not available in most Stores, you might consider contacting a Vet or MD or someone able to write a prescription for some or who could hand you some, or, see if you can arrange for obtaining some from a Pharmacy in your area, or, possibly, if any forum members near you, might have any on hand, but, that is pretty unlikely I think.

The 'ACV-Water' can or will help for many instances of Yeast/Candida infections in the Crop and down from there, but, some will not respond as well as others to the ACV ( what concentration have you been using in relation to total Water intake? Have you been using the ACV-Water to mix the formul with, as well as permitting the DOve to drink a few times between meals? And, if so, whgat has the concentration been of the ACV Water? ) and, will require the 'Medistatin'.


You could try with-holding the ACV for a while, and, instead, use plain regular Baking Soda ( but these two must never be used in close succession or combined of course...)though the Baking Soda solution would have to be 'Tubed' in...it may halp, it may ( in a series of applications ) ammend the issue, or it may only help somewhat and not enough...but, it can help to whatever degree, since it shifts the PH of thge Crop and down from there, into a zone which can eliminate some of the Candida/Yeast infection issues, but, still, 'Medistatin' would be better.


In summary, if it were me, I would have this young Dove on Metronidazole, Medistatin, and, a good, wide spectrum Antibiotic of some sort...as say Enroflaxyn ( or Cipro or Baytril, as these three are in effect, the same ).

It is also possible, that your Dove has a Virus, which had been incubating, and, is now manifesting into symptoms.

If this is so, expect them to continue to do downhill, with the understanding that the regimen outlined would still be appropriate for treating opportunistic illnesses which can slip stream in along with or slightly behind instances of PPMV or other Avian Viruses to which Doves are heir...and which can kill the Bird, when otherwise the Bird themselves may well have survived the Virus proper if given approprite care and regimen.

This would also mean the Dove would likely have to be hydrated and fed via the 'Tube' for some period of time.


This is not my primary hunch of what is going on, but, I would not rule it out, either...and we shall have to see how things go.


I would also be feeding this Dove intentional Nurients, such as Goji Berries particularly ( easy to get any any Health Food Store ). Just cut the semi-dried Berries into thirds, with scissors, and, soak them for a little while to hydrate them, before feeding.

These will aid the Bird's immune system and are rich in antioxidents and Vitamin C, aiding and nourishing them generally.



Good luck!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

Poop Wise, a healthy Dove or Pigeon of this age or range of 10 days old on through fledgling time and even on from there a while, when fed and digesting adequatly, whatever the Species, would be making about 45 to 50 neat, tidy, easy to pick up in the fingers, slightly moist, 'White Cap' poops-a-day, or every 24 hours. The smaller the Bird, the smaller the poops, but, the poops-every-24-hours count would be about the same, regardless.

'Tan' poops m-a-y signal Liver infection, or Liver failure when seen in Squabs or near fledglings or older ( though are normal in neonates or the very very young )...even as various Urate types 'may' signal Kidney or lower Intestinal illness/infection and or specific kinds of illness or infection in the Bird's system.

Weak Legs, similarly...can or may signal Kidney inflamation associated with various illnesses.

Global weakness is another matter and makes it harder to assign or locate local symtpoms as may arise from specific problems.

On and on...


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## Jaye

Well...setting aside the gloom-and-doom for a moment, let's just get to this: Michy...how is the baby's general demeanor ? Is his activity level a bit better than yesterday, worse, or about the same ? How is he eating ?

Rather than starting to pump him with a cocktail of meds, which would likely take a few days to acquire, anyway...if he is seeming sluggish, I would get him to an avian vet for a fecal and bloodtest.....that is, if he seems the same or worse than yesterday.


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## ocipura

I guess my Birdy is dying, then. Don't know what to do but give him a comfortable passing.

Since I didn't realize things were serious until after regular vet business hours, there's not much I can do. The one place that's open, their doc who sees birds isn't in till Monday, and they were freaking retarded with me on the phone. "Ma'am, was this a bird you found? Well, doves eat a special formula, and basically no matter what you feed it it's not going to make it." HOW THE HELL IS THAT HELPFUL?! I replied "Are you serious? That was really *not helpful*. You didn't even listen to what kind of problem I'm having with having with him." ... "I'm sorry, ma'am. I was just trying to help. I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear." 

Whatever. Birdy's acting as healthy as ever, but obviously _what do I know?_ I'm getting to the point where if he's going to pass I wish he'd just pass quickly. I can't take this emotional roller-coaster every day of *"is he going to die or isn't he?"*

Here's another bad (worse) looking poop, for your enjoyment. I'm not going to apologize for being emotional. I haven't been rude. This is all just too much for me.


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## Jaye

That poop doesn't look terrible. And you say he is acting better today ?

If he is acting more energetic, then my guess is he might have just aspirated a bit yesterday.

I would stay the course, and perhaps some members can suggest what add'l steps one can take with a Dove which may have aspirated the day before.....

You see, this becomes the problem when non-pros try to diagnose. All we can go on is past experience, but oftentimes the net being cast is too wide and results in a possible laundry-list of maladies...which must be treated with a laundry-list of meds because in honesty...we are only taking educated guesses. While the intention may be good...there is a point where thinking aloud becomes a bit much.

If he seems better, that's great. Keep up the feedings (lighter feedings for today, cut back), keep up the warmth and supportive care, keep up the Metro. You may wanna investigate if you CAN find any Trimeth-Sulpha anywhere (sometimes called Triple-Sulpha)...at a feed store for farm animals, for example....just so you have it on-hand for the weekend.

I understand your frustration. If Birdy is really acting better today...more energy, much less signs of eye-closing....then I wouldn't fear the worse now. 

If you have any inclination to call back the vet's office...you could ask if there's any other place anywhere which has an avian vet on Saturdays. But again, I am not saying that because the alarm bells are going off...I am saying that just in case you notice him going downhill today.

You know the signs of downhill...lethargy, feathers fluffed, eyes closing, demeanor and enthusiasm being 'off'. Just keep an eye and keep it up. 

You are doing quite alright. Let us know how Birdy is throughout the day.....


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## ocipura

I asked that vet before I hung up, but they said they didn't know of any other place, and that I probably wouldn't find anyone open today. 

I've called around from the phone book and found a good number of other vets that will see birds, but even the ones that are open today, their doc who sees birds won't be in till Monday. Come to the end of my rope as far as that goes. But I do have at least 3-4 places I can call back on Monday, if Birdy makes it and still needs to be seen.

Now that his breakfast has digested, he has been showing tons of energy! He's doing some exploring, hopping off his box and wandering around the table, taking some flights. He flew over to me on the couch - it was the first time he's flown to me, unprompted, and without food in sight. That was really sweet. 

I still think the poops looks bad. They're dark brown, not tan any more, and quite loose. The liquid is quite yellow and sometimes bubbly. But I will just keep at it. We'll see how things go. At least I know I'm doing everything I can!


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## Jaye

Tan is not actually all that good, oftentimes. But in this case I think the tam is the result of the formula/diet, not dysfunction. But its absence is not necessarily need for alarm. Bubbles can or may not be indicative of something.

I still think that he could have gotten stressed from an overfeeding. In which case I still do hope that someone will chime in with steps one should take to help along a mildly aspirated baby.

If it is not that, it may be another malady surfacing...and, of course, these things always happen on weekends ! (really, they do).

You have seemed to cover all of the bases you can...so, other than seeing if you can get hold of some Sulpha med as I described above...my only other thought would be to see if any of those hospitals can at least do a fecal exam in the absence of the avian vet being there. Oftentimes vet techs know how to do these w/o the presence of the avian vet....

Again, I reiterate...don't become despondent and no need to panic. If Birdy is showing spirit and has not gotten worse since yesterday, that's a decent sign. If he seems a bit better, even better.

Just keep an eye and check back here thru the day. I have asked a few others to chime in, as well.....


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## ocipura

You're great! I'm going to just assume the best for now and keep an eye on things. Here's your reward for cheering me up. Normal, happy Birdy pics.

When I laugh, Birdy stretches his neck and looks around ... I wonder if he's confused or just appreciates the sound of laughter? I love his expression! See also, preening. His second-favorite activity, next to eating.

Oh, and in regards to whether or not he is a mourning dove.... As you can see, he has developed spots on his wings. I'm not sure what these indicate. Online, all the photos I can find of mourning doves show these spots, but the doves that I always see in this neighborhood don't have spots but instead have a white stripe on their wings! I guess he's just different!


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## ocipura

Birdy is still showing a great energy level today. He got into the tray of seeds that I have on the table, by himself, and started pecking! I don't think he ate any seeds, and he quickly got bored and started up his preening again, but it was good to see him show some interest in seeds without me there with him.


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## Pidgey

He'll eventually get it, no worries. I don't know how much their parents actually teach them what to eat and what not to out in the wilds, though.

Pidgey


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## Pepper'sMom

Hi there!

I'm new to this mommabird thing as well, and have noticed my little "Pepper" has had some runny droppings lately. I think it's primarily due to the high moisture content of the formula, and have been making the kaytee formula slightly thicker, which seems to be helping, as well as trying to get him eating seed. It's always been a little runnier after feeding and tapers off. He seems to be acting fine, much like your baby.....though no flying yet!

I'm wondering if the formula (lafeber's & kaytee) really has enough fat and protein for these little guys, does anyone know? Like, maybe the high carbohydrates are causing some disruption to their little digestive systems, causing bad bacteria to flourish much as it does with humans. Also, with the acv, could it start developing too much acidity after a while?

Anyway, I've started adding a little boiled egg yolk and a few drops unrefined red palm oil to Pepper's formula since I have some around. Does anyone have any input and do you think more fat and protein would aid her birdie in this situation? 

-Becky


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## Pidgey

I've raised quite a few on the stuff and they seem normal as can be, short of what happens with the spoiling that seems to always occur when one does that. Formula is ALWAYS more watery than they need so they virtually always have to shed water through poops.

Pidgey


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## ocipura

Hi everyone! I'm sorry I haven't been able to update. I wanted to let you know I did get Birdy into a vet (on the 9th) and he had no infections! Good news!

He is developing well and has grown into his cage, which is good. He is actually starting to eat quite a bit of seeds on his own, and we're a bit concerned about when we're supposed to start with the grit. Is he going to be unable to digest the seeds he is eating until we start having him eat grit?? If he can't digest the seeds, will they just sit in his crop??

Thanks for the help. I will update more soon, but things are a bit hectic right now because my hubby just got home for his 2 weeks of R&R from Iraq...


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## Dobato

Hi Michy, I would not worry about grit too much right now, the seeds will not just sit in the crop without grit, but will get processed. When I hand raise young I withhold grit until they are at an age where if in the wild they could find it themselves, about 6-8 weeks old, could be a bit younger with doves, so others may chime in. What you can do is order in some pigeon/dove grit so you have the proper size on hand, do not give this little one grit designed for smaller birds, such as budgies or cockatiels.

Karyn


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## ocipura

Thanks, Karyn. If anyone else has thoughts on the timing of starting the grit, I'd appreciate it, but for now I'll just start looking around to find the right size, so that when he's ready I'll have it. I'm glad to know it's not going to be a big deal or hurt him to eat seeds without it for now, while he's still young. He's getting close to 4 wks old now, by my estimation.

Another thing I was wondering about is the water. He is eating enough seeds now that his poops are getting more dry, and yet he is still completely uninterested in water. I have tried what I was told - wetting my fingertips, trying to guide his beak into the water as he nuzzles... but he really doesn't want anything to do with it. So if anyone has suggestions on that front, I'd be happy to hear them as well.


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## Jaye

I am assuming you have also tried dipping his beak in a shallow dish of water ? If not, try that also.

Glad to hear things are going well. Maybe post another pic or vid sometime soon (?)


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## ocipura

Yeah, I've tried that. He's just not interested in water - either for drinking or for bathing....

Also I'm wondering about the weaning process...


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## Dobato

ocipura said:


> Yeah, I've tried that. He's just not interested in water - either for drinking or for bathing....
> 
> Also I'm wondering about the weaning process...


You should be working on getting him weaned right now, helping him hunt and peck ay seeds with you. These links describe how to get him nuzzling and eating seeds, also you need to spread some seeds around for him, you can make like you are hunting and pecking with him by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds along with him. Also, start to keep a dish of seeds in his cage/box (no whole sunflower seeds, corn or peas) along with a small water dish,) as well as spreading some out in the cage at the base of the seed dish to peck at. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with him. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2 feeding seeds


Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## ocipura

He's already eating seeds - That's why I was concerned about getting him to start drinking water. His poops are drying out from the seeds he's eating, so I can tell he's going to start needing to drink water. He's eating quite a few on his own, but he's still hungry and going nuts at our "feeding times," so I'm not sure if that means it's not ready to cut back on formula or what...


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## Dobato

ocipura said:


> He's already eating seeds - That's why I was concerned about getting him to start drinking water. His poops are drying out from the seeds he's eating, so I can tell he's going to start needing to drink water. He's eating quite a few on his own, but he's still hungry and going nuts at our "feeding times," so I'm not sure if that means it's not ready to cut back on formula or what...


Michy, in the links I posted above there is one with instructions on getting these guys, pigeons and doves, drinking on their own, in case you missed it. Follow the instructions, they are tried and true, and keep at it as it may take a few goes.

Karyn


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## ocipura

Yeah, that's what I've already been trying. Several times a day. Will keep at it..


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## ocipura

Some pics!


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## imluvnit01

soooooo cute >.< seriously i want him lol. looks just like my wilbur


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## ocipura

Yes, we frequently get distracted by his cuteness lol. Altho I'm hoping he quits landing on heads at some point.


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## imluvnit01

lol wilbur always landed on my head. lol. but i did start to train him to fly to my hands when i wiggled my fingers.


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## ocipura

I just wanted to give an update with some final pictures... 

Birdy did really well with us while Hubby was home on R&R. He took to my hubby right away. We were working on training him to come to us when we wriggled fingers or whistled a certain tune, but Birdy was pretty stubborn. He came when he wanted to and otherwise stayed put. He didn't like to stay in his cage...if we were in the room with him, he would pace back and forth impatiently, but if we let him out, he would usually sit contentedly on a washcloth and preen, as long as we kept him right next to us. We spent a lot of time sitting on our giant beanbag playing Call of Duty Black Ops, and Birdy would sit there with us, preening and pooping happily.

I stopped giving him any medication after the vet gave the all clear saying there was no sign of infection. Birdy began eating seeds on his own, and, eventually, we caught him drinking water, as well. That was very encouraging. I cut back his formula feedings to twice a day, a very small amount. I relished that time because I could feel him pulling away from us and becoming more independent, but it was nice to have that time as his mommy still. 

He always flew to me when frightened or nervous and would usually land on my head. When I would hold him on my lap or chest and cover him with my hand, he would get entirely relaxed, with sleepy eyes, and he would sometimes do that thing that scared me at first - where he'd lay on one side and lift the opposite wing straight in the air. It was so cute!! He only did that when I was holding him, and it was very special to me.

Hubby and I took him outside a few times. Once, Birdy sat on my shoulder on a washcloth while we took a walk down the street to this little park area. Birdy never showed any sign of wanting to leave the safety of my shoulder.

Two other times, we took him out in the backyard. Once we sat with him on the ground and tried to get him to bathe in a dish of water - he wasn't interested. The other time we stood facing each other and had him practice flying back and forth between us. We only did it for a short time because we didn't want to stress him out too much. Again, he always flew to one of our heads (usually mine) if he got freaked out. He never made any attempt to land anywhere other than on us.

My Hubby left to go back to Iraq on Thursday. Thursday morning, Birdy refused his morning feeding of formula, even though his crop seemed empty. Thursday afternoon I was home alone with Birdy (and my cat Tumbles), and Birdy seemed very restless. I decided to take him out in the backyard. He has been there many times and is somewhat familiar with it...and Hubby and I had never seen any sign that he would fly away if afraid... 

I let Birdy sit and get some sun, which he seemed to enjoy, while I walked around the backyard in plain sight. He stretched out one wing at a time to sun himself and did a little preening. He didn't seem inclined to fly. So I went to take him back inside. But as I was opening the door, Birdy (apparently got startled?) flew away. He landed on a telephone wire that runs from our roof to a pole behind the house and sat there. I called to him, whistled to him, wriggled my fingers... I went inside and got a familiar washcloth...I went inside and got his orange nipple that always excites him...... I got the little dish of seeds from his cage..... I tried everything, but Birdy wouldn't come down, and he was too far up to reach.

I was still standing out there, trying to get him down, when the next-door neighbor started mowing his lawn. As the mower came into the backyard Birdy apparently got startled again. But instead of flying to me, as he always had in the past, he flew away, over the top of the house, and was gone.

It was incredibly hard... I didn't intend to release him, or lose him..I didn't even get to say goodbye. In fact, in my opinion, he was too young to survive in the wild, let alone lacking in the instincts he would need. Hubby says he just decided to try and make a life for himself... I'm more inclined to believe he panicked and probably died the first day. :-( I really have no idea. I've put his cage on the back porch, and I've been putting out seeds every day. I've seen two little mourning doves that have come to eat seeds... and one of them stops to listen to me if I whistle Birdy's song... but they don't REALLY look like him. Their feathers seem lighter. IDK if the sun can lighten the feathers? I don't know why, if it is him, he wouldn't come say hi? Maybe it's him. Maybe not. I don't know. I've tried calling and whistling, even walking down my street..but I haven't had any real sign that he's out there.

I made a mistake by taking him outside that final time...  But I did my best for him. Hopefully he's okay... I miss him terribly!


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## spirit wings

after all that you let him go outside?... oh my..


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## Dobato

Michy, thanks for this final update on Birdy. Unfortunately, you are not the first person, and sadly, will not be the last, who has had this has happened to them. We warn people all the time when they have recovering sick, or growing young birds, of the dangers of taking them outside, outside of a cage. As they are subject to frights, the adrenaline gets going and off they go.

This little one looks to now be fairly mature, so all we can now do is a say a prayer that Birdy's instincts kick in and he figures things out on how to survive out there. The one thing you can do is put his cage/carrier out, as if he sees this there is a good chance he will recognize this as home and may come down to it, if he is still in the area.

Thanks for getting him this far, and I know you must be heartbroken by this.

Karyn


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## ocipura

spirit wings said:


> after all that you let him go outside?... oh my..


And after my whole long story, THAT'S what you have to say, spirit? Sigh!


...


Anyway. Yes, his cage is outside, as well as several "familiar" things to him. And they'll stay out there for a good long while. I'm also continuing to put seeds out every day, sometimes twice a day, sometimes sitting out and whistling his song.



Dobato said:


> Thanks for getting him this far, and I know you must be heartbroken by this.


Thanks, Karyn. I am heartbroken. It has been very hard. But what is, is. I'm a Christian, and I believed God brought me to Birdy in the first place... I prayed for him to get thru each night. I believe God helped him survive, even when I made mistakes in raising him. This is just one more mistake, and he's as much in God's hands now as he was in the beginning. I'm trying to get past the "beating myself up" phase and move on.


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## Dobato

ocipura said:


> Thanks, Karyn. I am heartbroken. It has been very hard. But what is, is. I'm a Christian, and I believed God brought me to Birdy in the first place... I prayed for him to get thru each night. I believe God helped him survive, even when I made mistakes in raising him. This is just one more mistake, and he's as much in God's hands now as he was in the beginning. I'm trying to get past the "beating myself up" phase and move on.


I have been looking after birds a good many years now and I still beat myself up over things concerning their health, from time to time. None of us can know everything, but when we know better, we do better. I will certainly say a prayer for Birdy's safe keep and I wanted to thank your husband, and you, for his service and sacrifice for us all.

God bless,

Karyn


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## imluvnit01

Im so sorry hunny. Though you do have to keep in mind that doves are social, he could have easily found a mate, he could be watching other doves and followed them to food sources, he could still be sitting around happy. Dont worry hun. Im sure he is ok. and dont feel bad i used to take wilbur outside too, i thought it was good for him. We are just newbies.


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## spirit wings

ocipura said:


> And after my whole long story, THAT'S what you have to say, spirit? Sigh!
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Anyway. Yes, his cage is outside, as well as several "familiar" things to him. And they'll stay out there for a good long while. I'm also continuing to put seeds out every day, sometimes twice a day, sometimes sitting out and whistling his song.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Karyn. I am heartbroken. It has been very hard. But what is, is. I'm a Christian, and I believed God brought me to Birdy in the first place... I prayed for him to get thru each night. I believe God helped him survive, even when I made mistakes in raising him. This is just one more mistake, and he's as much in God's hands now as he was in the beginning. I'm trying to get past the "beating myself up" phase and move on.


um yes... sorry


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## imluvnit01

spirit seems to not understand. Hun just ignore the negative comments, def. Try to learn as much as you can for next time. Honestly though, i think you will see him again. I know the grieving process is hard. Things will look up though my love.


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## ocipura

Thanks  I did get a lot of great advice and support here. Not gonna let the few negative ones get me down. 

If I ever get another dove, I'm going to ask my Hubby if we can put a giant net over the backyard lol


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## imluvnit01

lol. well if you accomplish that, you will have to give me some tips lol


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