# OvoControl



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

I would like to recommend this site as vital information which all pigeon lovers should be informed of before deciding how they feel about the birth control OvoControl usage in feral flocks of pigeons. I have communicated personally by e-mail with Erick Wolf the present CEO of the company Innolytics LLC responsible for the manufacturing of OvoControl and it was an exercise in double talk and contradictions, contact me by private e-mail for more info. if interested in what he had to say about OvoControl.

http://www.pigeoncontrolresourcecen...ocontrol-oral-contraceptives-for-pigeons.html


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks lindylou, for posting this - it is indeed a very informative site. I feed feral pigeons and I don't think I would want my birds to ingest something that needs to be handled with gloves! The artificial breeding systems idea on the other hand - providing pigeons with nesting boxes and replacing the eggs with fakes once or twice a week - is both humane, and effective for those concerned with pigeon numbers, and I was glad to read it has been employed successfully as an alternative to other methods. But I was wondering....they say that if eggs hatch the babies are not interfered with, yet, if the eggs are replaced once or twice a week, there shouldn't be any eggs close to hatching, hmmmm....


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Years ago, they tried pigeon birth control in Holland, it didn't work. It is always best to work with God's creation, rather then against.

The artificial breeding system has worked and is effective, the reason it isn't used everywhere is because no one wants the cost involved with starting it up and just not interested. 

Eric Wolf has posted on this forum before.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

I am a firm believer in the PiCAS model of pigeon control, as viewed in the video "Pigeons in the City'' which can be viewed on U-Tube, and as I see it, with a little "tweeking," it is as close to perfect as feral pigeon control will most likely ever get. By "tweeking" I mean rather than taking all the eggs it would be ideal to let the coupled pigeons hatch, say, one egg each laying or so, with other eggs replaced with wooden or plastic ones. Then the female will slow down in the laying of eggs and it is not so hard on her body(she'll keep laying, if no hatchlings are allowed). As far as the cost (most consider it too expensive) this need not be true, as I have told Erick Wolf. I have heard of materials which were already on a business site being used to build the lofts and cost next to nothing. i.e. one Hospital used old filing cabinets turned over on their sides with petitions inserted (how clever!) and the pigeons readily accepted this. They were also supplied with nesting material (their own shredded paper), clean water. and, of course, the food. Worked well. Nest sites were mapped and visited daily to collect eggs. YOUNG HATCHLINGS IN THIS CASE, WERE LEFT ALONE. The impact was dramatic. In less than 1 year, the bird population reduced by 50%. The cost of cleaning fouling has also reduced significantly. Also, recycled old lockers make good cotes, as well as old shelving and wooden crating which has been tossed, one can go to any construction site where they have a bin and are tossing wire mess, wood, crating, ask for it, and most sites will be happy to let you have what you want. Tell them that you want to recycle materials. Most construction workers think that is so cool. They will even put the material in your car or truck for you. All this takes is the willingness to use ingenuity and willingness to take the time to set it up. The costs are overexaggerated. I myself could come up with hundreds of suggestions for cheap pigeon cotes. It would be nice to see some of us at pigeon talk help with ideas for cotes from cheap, on hand material. We just need to educate the public that it need not cost much. People already in maintenance at the business sites could we used to collect eggs and put out feed, or high-school students, or even volunteers could be searched for. I know I would love to do this kind of work. So would many of us on pigeon-talk volunteer. The perfect job for the pigeon enthusiast.

There was a predecessor to OvoControl P called Ornitrol, which was banned in the US in the 1990's it was NOT A HORMONE as Erick Wolf tried to say to me, what is was was a hormonal BLOCKER and a form of cholestroidal (much like present day antistatins used to control cholesterol. It thinned the inner shell of an egg} and separted the egg white from the yoke, but after pigeons were put on it for long periods they were found to develop tremours, so it was banned. But the scientists who worked to develop Ornitrol kept at it and someone came up with OvoControl. (By the way, after kind of giving up on me because he cannot give a solid answer about long-term use of OvoControl on pigeons and other non-target species, Wolf suggested that I turn my attention toward the banning of the use of Avitrol to poison pigeons, instead of picking on OvoControl, all this, when on his site he RECOMMENDS the use of other forms of pigeon control in conjuction with use of OvoControl. Nowhere does he say, dont use Avitrol though. Since he recommends uses of secondary pigeon control along with use of OvoControl, I have to ask WHY? If OvoControl works on its own as well as he claims (50-88%), then why use OTHER methods with it? Leaves me to wonder is he getting these huge numbers because people are POISONING them or driving them off with spiking and netting, as well as using OvoControl?)

One can get their feed at a feed lot, and the price is about $11.00 for 40 lbs, in Canada here, which is over 1/2 the cost of buying it at a bird pet shop. What I do is "bang it" with omega 3 vitamins once a week (3 6 9 Omega), the pigeons love the taste and stay very healthy (why not treat your ferals to good health as they reduce in numbers as well, what is left will be beautiful, healthy, luminous birds)


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Is this product the primary birth control drug used in most places ? Or are there competitor products ?

It certainly doesn't surprise me that a pharmaceutical corporation would come back with another version of a banned substance instead of just pursuing a different one....


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye...It's not a different version of the same drug that was banned in the UK. It's a different drug.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Is this product the primary birth control drug used in most places ? Or are there competitor products ?
> 
> It certainly doesn't surprise me that a pharmaceutical corporation would come back with another version of a banned substance instead of just pursuing a different one....


From what I can find on the net for the now defunct Co. that pushed Ornitrol, it was manufactured at one point out of Skokie, Illinois by a company called: G.D. Searle Co. with a Mr. M.R. Woulfe very involved (strange: 2 different birth control products, 2 CEO's with the same last name only spelled differently). Mr. Woulfe can be found at a Seminar in September 1970 at the University of Nebrasca delivering a seminar: DigitalCommons At the University of Nebrasca-Lincoln at the Wildllife Damage Management Internet Center For Bird Control Siminars Proceedings where he is explaining what went wrong with Ornitrol, that it adversely apparently affected both the adrenal and Pituatary glands in the pigeons causing sterility. In fact, it so affected both the male and female pigeons, that they could not even find the sex organs on most of the deceased pigeons, and when they could, the testicles and ovaries were tiny, and atrophied. Very interesting. It is interesting to note that in one of the scienfic studies which I e-mailed to Erick Wolf of Innolytics LLC which manufactures OvoControl, Nicarbazin has this effect in rats when given in various dosages from 0, 5, 10, and higher. Side effects of Nicarbazin are very difficult to detect in the bodies of the birds and dogs that died in the lab, it is hard to detect in tissue, blood sampling and urinary testing (in urine it was a bit better, could be detected by causing a yellow/blue tinge to the urine. And the really disturbing data in these tests on the dead lab rats and animals was: it did not seem to matter whether the dosage of Nacarbazin was high or low, or whether the animal was on it for a longer or shorter time in the dead subjects, side effects and toxicity was the same. I, in fact, e-mailed 3 indepth studies by renouned researchers to Mr. Erick Wolf of Innolytics and he confirmed that this data and these test were well-known and acceptable in the scientific circles; however, he said, WE now have this test which is much more recent (2010) from the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) which reviewed the old and new data to make their recommendation for the re-registration of the compound (nacarbazin) in the EU, yet if you read it carefully, and I told this to Erick (he did not disagree), it also found trouble with toxicity if the 2-hydroxal and the DNR were combined together. Combined together, what do they make? OVOCONTROL OR NICARBAZIN. Same findings in this: it did not seem to matter the length of time of administration nor larger or smaller dosage, the outcome was the same. Wolf claims he gets around this with such a small dose (LD50, 10,000mg/kg bw, claiming this has been proven over and over again by use in field chickens. Excuse, me, a pigeon is not a chicken, body weight, much smaller, how accurate is such a comparison? Narcarbazin was used in chickens to control egg lays, but also to FATTEN them up. So obviously narcarbazin does more than control egg laying. In tests, Narcarbazin also began to cause salmonella bacteria to mutate in one test, but not 2. Could the use of it in pigeons cause a mutation in the salmonella so that a pigeon on it over time could develop an antibiotic resistant form of salmonella? When asked this, Wolf did not even comment on this. Obviously he does not know because he is pushing this OvoControl onto the public without any reliable long-term studies being conducted. (this was also done in the use of Ornitrol in the 1970-90's.) Also, when asked several times why he will not allow OvoControl to undergo more long term-testing (it has only been around for 2 years or so) he will never answer this question. I told him, this makes me pause and think.

I also notice that the study (2010) by the EFSA was done in Italy. My research has shown that most American companies do their research there. It is also interesting to note that Italy has whole heartedly endorsed Mr. Wolf's product. When I asked him who funded this study, he has not answered that question.

Can we really trust these people who want to market a form of birth control for pigeons? In the seminar discussion at Nebrasca University one of the researchers puts, HE thinks, humorously at the bottom of this findings this statement: KEEP OUR PARKS CLEAN......EAT A PIGEON! Does that sould like someone who really gives a rat's butt about a pigeon, or someone who wants the glory and fame and MONEY that he hopes to get by being the first reseacher to come up with a birth control method for pigeons. I will let YOU decide.

Yes, we all would like to see more humane methods of feral pigeon control. But the truth is, we are a long ways away from that as yet. Maybe, in time. 

I came across an ad for another type of birth control for pigeons that claimed to be holistic, can't recall their ad name, they are still doing business, so some other companies that claim to have a way of birth controlling are out there, apparently.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

Stay tuned. Theo goods will be posted by me tomorrow!


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I must admit, I like the principle behind a product like ovocontrol, as an alternative that can be offered up to bloody minded councils apart from poisoning. I haven't looked into it properly but I imagine its frought with issues like most drugs, such as its impact on other animals and birds who ingest it , for one. 

I love city dovecoats like the ones they have in Melbourne, Australia, and Brasilia... they are nicest solution to pigeon population control IMO.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Bella, I have heard of these city dovecots, We have a few buildings here that act as them and either the council don't bother with population control or the population is polulating itself at rapid rates as I never seem to see a shortage of pigeons hanging out.

How do they work and would the pigeons not just find other places and start populating there aswell? Also not that I am disagreeing with it as I love the idea but from the councils point of view is it not a bit backwards, Providing somewhere for them to thrive which would lead to more pigeons in the long run - spreading to other buildings and so on.

Love the idea and I think it would be a sight to see but yea...... it seems to be the opposite of what most councils try and do.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hehe this gave me a laugh, It takes a while to get to the point but it could be a nice way to help the members that join the forum and have issues with pigeons nesting. We could refer them to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fkRXuBPbo&feature=related.

sorry a little bit off topic but still relevant to pigeon control..... maybe I should start a new thread....... Oops to late


----------



## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Bella, I have heard of these city dovecots, We have a few buildings here that act as them and either the council don't bother with population control or the population is polulating itself at rapid rates as I never seem to see a shortage of pigeons hanging out.
> 
> How do they work and would the pigeons not just find other places and start populating there aswell? Also not that I am disagreeing with it as I love the idea but from the councils point of view is it not a bit backwards, Providing somewhere for them to thrive which would lead to more pigeons in the long run - spreading to other buildings and so on.
> 
> Love the idea and I think it would be a sight to see but yea...... it seems to be the opposite of what most councils try and do.


The councils provide the nestboxes for the pigeons in dovecotes or unused empty buildings and then once or twice a week a person goes around and replaces the eggs with dummy eggs. If there are hatchlings already, they are left to fledge. It is very effective population control from what I read, and is much more cost effective than the birth control pellets which someone has too feed to the birds every day, while monitoring that other birds do not ingest them, as well as wash the area to prevent contaminating the surroundings, when it rains.
So given that that it's both effective and financially feasible, I don't know why more places do not adopt it. I guess it's contrary to people's thinking to provide for a pest you want to eradicate.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Fake eggs are the peice of the puzzle i did not think of. Makes sense. I love the idea


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eva and Evan!

Eva summed it up perfectly- feeding is encouraged around the city dovecoat, whilst discouraged in other areas. And when the pigeons breed there, the eggs are replaced or quickly painted with a liquid that prevents the eggs from `breathing' and hatching. They use this potion with Ibis eggs in Australia when the population grows too massive too. Very effective, maybe too effective- there were reports of Ibis almost being wiped out in Perth because of the painting-eggs technique.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Fake eggs are the peice of the puzzle i did not think of. Makes sense. I love the idea


 To see how it works you can go to U-Tube and watch the video PIGEONS IN THE CITY. It is quite long (15 minutes) but well worth watching.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

*OvoControl for Pigeons*

If considering the merits of OvoControl, as the manufacturer, we have an obligation to weigh in on this conversation. Believe what you will, but our intent is to provide a safe and effective product for the contraception of birds. There are just two ways to manage a population of pigeons – a) increase mortality, or, b) reduce reproduction. For decades, commercial operations and government have focused on the former – better trapping techniques, more toxic poisons and even shooting. When we started this business, we figured that contraception for pigeons was just common sense, a humane method to reduce the burden for industrial or municipal sites plagued by too many birds.

Despite what some are saying, OvoControl is not toxic – not to pigeons, not to other birds, not to mammals and not to the environment. Originally developed by Merck, nicarbazin, the active ingredient in OvoControl, has been used in the poultry industry to prevent coccidiosis for more than half a century. It is perfectly safe and we are happy to share the data that supports this statement with anyone with an open mind. 

The comments in this thread including a relationship with Ornitrol (diazacon), hormonal blocking action, anti-statins, muscle tremors, etc. are in no way related to OvoControl. We have no problem defending the science that support our products and will respond in a timely manner to any reasonable questions or concerns. There is a wealth of information included on the website (www.ovocontrol.com), including many technical details. 

If your choice is to use a pigeon loft to mitigate feral pigeons, by all means, please do so. That said, there are others in the market that prefer alternative solutions. Our objective is to simply provide a contraceptive tool to manage birds without having to resort to methods that do not provide a long-term or sustainable solution.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

I want to know why you are trying SO HARD to convince us all here on Pigeon-Talk of the safety of your product, Erick. You are on an avid PR run here but the reality of it is, Erick that only TIME AND LONG-TERM USE of your product is going to prove or disprove it's value, okay. It is only my opinion, which I have a right to state, of course, and you can do with it as you will that you want a blind faith in your product and in the proper use of it by a public that has a very negative preception of the pigeon in the first place. You will get that sort of blind faith from many here and in the public forum who are baffled by the science of it all and have child-like trust in science. But like it or not, it will take time to prove the worth of OvoControl, just as it did with Ornitrol. We heard the same reasssurances from the makers of Ornitrol by G.D. Searle when it was given the green light, and I am sure that many who developed the science of it did indeed want to come up with a humane form of pigeon control. At first, it all looked great, but we also know what happened. Pigeons showing up totally sterile with little or no reproductive organs. Permanent and irreversal. There really is no way that you can give a gaurantee that OvoControl will not produce its share of problems, even though perhaps not as severe or widespead as those that Ornitrol displayed. Now, I realize that you probably will not want someone like me digging up these facts as a reminder from the past that caution should be the call of the day. You obviously feel confident in your product and that the negative consequences of past birth control products has no bearing on your product. And it may well be that OvoControl will prove itself safe and effective. Wonderful. We pigeon advocates and lovers ALL WANT THAT. But for me and many of us who care, we will continue to advise caution and a "wait and see" attitude before we will endorse the use of OvoControl. I hope you are right, Erick and that we have something worthwhile here in it's use. We will see.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

*OvoControl for Pigeons*

We should all keep the facts in mind,

1) the active ingredient in OvoControl, nicarbazin, has been around for more than a half century and used extensively in the poultry industry, all over the world. The quantity used in chickens dwarfs what will ever be used in pigeons.

2) OvoControl has been applied in different bird species for 8 years....5 years in pigeons. Should this not be considered long-term for feral pigeons?

3) While Ornitrol (diazacon) was originally developed by GD Searle as a male contraceptive, it was brought to market by Avitrol, the same company that makes the product by the same name. Ornitrol did not last long as most users were unwilling to wait for the sterilizing effect to impact the population. As you correctly outline, as a steroid hormone, the compound also had many side-effects and serious environmental risk. 

4) Ornitrol was a sterilant -- OvoControl is a contraceptive. The effects of the former are irreversible -- the latter is reversible. There is a world of difference between the two. 

Again, I suggest anyone reading this post to review the technical details  on the OvoControl website. It contains a wealth of data. If you still have questions we would be delighted to address them.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

lindylou said:


> To see how it works you can go to U-Tube and watch the video PIGEONS IN THE CITY. It is quite long (15 minutes) but well worth watching.


Thanks for that, Good video. I love seeing ferals in different countries.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

*ovocontrol*



erickwolf said:


> We should all keep the facts in mind,
> 
> 1) the active ingredient in OvoControl, nicarbazin, has been around for more than a half century and used extensively in the poultry industry, all over the world. The quantity used in chickens dwarfs what will ever be used in pigeons.
> 
> ...


I am sure, thank you,


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Erick for the information, I've been meaning to look into this product more deeply and I found the information provided by yourself and Lindy-Lou to be interesting.



> OvoControl is not toxic – not to pigeons, not to other birds, not to mammals and not to the environment.


Whilst toxicity is a major concern for other wildlife that ingest the ovocontrol, its not the only concern. I personally wouldn't use ovocontrol whilst the following concerns are unresolved: 

1. Overdosing. Can the hatchlings/chicks of raptors and other birds that consume ovocontrol via dead pigeons overdose from this, considering the weight of a hatchling may be 10 grams or so? Can ovocontrol cause growth defects in hatchlings? Was the effect on hatchlings studied, and if so was it studied in birds such as raptors that have different physiology, diets, and eating patterns to chickens (ie raptors tend to gorge and eat once a week or so as opposed to limited regular daily feeds)? And what are the effects on owls & their chicks, which do not have crops?

2. Ovocontrol prevents reproduction in wild species of birds that feed on ovocontrol or pigeons. This is a major issue to me because, unlike culling, which effects a population only temporarily, preventing reproduction in a species of bird can effectively cause local or general extinction. We've seen it here in Australia in Perth, where the White Ibis was almost annialated when eggs were made unviable for several years in order to control population.

The problem with ovocontrol is there is no control over what species ingest it regularly. It could be assumed that raptors will definitely be one of its victims.

At my place, if the raptors who own this territory stopped breeding successfully because of ovocontrol, the pigeon population would boom out of control, worse than it was before.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

The opinions expressed below are my personal feelings about this thread, and in no way reflect that of PT., the other moderators, or administrators.

Bella - thank you for the civility of your post. A few others have been a little bit over the top.

Please, whether we agree with lindylou, or not, let's remember that the basic concept of this compound is to provide a way to control pigeon populations. I think we all agree that there needs to be an alternative to poisoning, shooting, trapping, and other lethal methods of accomplishing this.

Most, if not all, drugs go through years of testing, both in the lab, and in field trials. It is not a guarantee that some drugs will not still cause unforeseen problems that may make"the cure worse than the disease". But this happens rarely. We need to be willing to give Mr. Wolf and his product a chance to prove it's worth.

Bella, along with lindylou, brought up several concerns that Mr. Wolf should be willing to address. But if this product is still in development, he may not be willing to give out proprietary information until the drug has been thoroughly tested. Competiton between drug companies is very cut throat and giving out the wrong information at the wrong time could cost a company billions. Sad to say, all drug companies, no matter what drug they are developing, are, bottom line, in it for the profits. But is this a bad thing if they give us a drug that really works?

I think that everyone here wants to hear the answers to the questions raised. But making personal attacks against Mr Wolf is only causing hard feelings. And not giving him a chance to respond to the questions and allegations is unfair. And please, keep in mind that he may not be able to, or want to, answer our questions at this time. Some of the questions asked, as much as we feel we need answers, may not be any of our business until after the product has been given its chance to show it's stuff. 

I agree that there are many concerns with this product. But we need to address our concerns in a civil manner, without personal attacks, or making statements that haven't been proven as yet. Both sides need to understand the concerns of the other. If, after all is said and done, this product is a failure, or causes other species to suffer, I will be in the front lines to get it pulled from the market.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Many of the answers, to the questions asked, are in this link...

http://ovocontrol.com/pigeons/faqs/


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you Charis. This answers a lot of questions. I see that these questions and answers are posted by the manufacturer. If these answers are to be believed, this product isn't all that bad, ?????


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

almondman said:


> Thank you Charis. This answers a lot of questions. I see that these questions and answers are posted by the manufacturer. If these answers are to be believed, *this product isn't all that bad*, ?????


 I KNOW! ......


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the link to the FAQ.

After having read it, I am personally still very uncomfortable with the following:

1. the way this drug would impact on native pigeons, doves & other wild birds that directly eat the bait. 

2. the high frequency of use required for the drug to be effective (ie dispersing it for many consecutive days produces a much greater chance of ingestion by other species)

3.the fact that the effect on mammals that eat the bait is not yet studied.

4. There are fairly stringent laws against killing native animals around the world via poisoning, so any attempt to poison feral pigeons by councils would be very carefully monitored & controlled. I would imagine this care would not be taken by councils using ovovcontrol, as the extinction of other species (local or general) due to inability to reproduce, would be indirect, rather than direct. There are currently no laws to protect any native species that would be adversely affected or made extinct by ovocontrol, whereas with poisons, there are.


If this was used where I lived, then the following species would also be at risk of having their populations reduced (or eliminated):

- all grainivore native pigeons such as crested pigeons, bar shouldered dove, peaceful doves, pied imperial pigeons, brown cuckoo doves, wonga pigeons etc (about a dozen species that will eat with feral pigeons )
- all native crows, ravens, & corvids
- Australian magpies (normally insectivores but will readily eat pellets , bread, and bird seed)
- pied butcherbirds
- larger honeyeaters such as noisy minors
- Ibis
- some species of duck (the black duck eats mainly on the ground, but the wood ducks are more likely to eat on a roof)

I believe this would cause rapid local extinction of some of these birds such as magpies and butcherbirds, as they consist mainly of just one adult pair of birds who rely on one or two generations of young to protect their territory ie. no babies = can't successfully defend their territory=no habitat. 

I guess I'm cooling towards the idea the more I read about it, knowing it will affect many native species of pigeons and other birds, not just feral pigeons.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks Erick for the information, I've been meaning to look into this product more deeply and I found the information provided by yourself and Lindy-Lou to be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said, Bella, I stand not alone......


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks for that, Good video. I love seeing ferals in different countries.


Glad you enjoyed it. So sad to see how the preception about pigeons right up until the early '60's was good; then we decided we don't want or need them, this after thousands of years of providing us with enjoyment and service. LOL


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

lindylou said:


> Glad you enjoyed it. So sad to see how the preception about pigeons right up until the early '60's was good; then we decided we don't want or need them, this after thousands of years of providing us with enjoyment and service. LOL


Television and video games..... even computers and internet are partly to blame, Who needs pigeons for enjoyment nowadays. Its a shame, Don't get me wrong the internet and T.V. can be great learning tools aswell as a great way to promote pigeons and in the case of PT save many pigeons lives but these modern day forms of entertainment have taken away from making fun with nature...more so pigeons.

When we had the deadly Earthquake here in ChCh last year I had no power for around 10 days, People in the neighbourhood were getting bored but I could still fly my pigeon kits and I guess in the nicest way possible I got the last laugh from the neighbours that give me a little bit of flack for the pigeons. All in good fun though.

Off topic sorry.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

almondman said:


> I think that everyone here wants to hear the answers to the questions raised. But making personal attacks against Mr Wolf is only causing hard feelings. And not giving him a chance to respond to the questions and allegations is unfair. And please, keep in mind that he may not be able to, or want to, answer our questions at this time. Some of the questions asked, as much as we feel we need answers, may not be any of our business until after the product has been given its chance to show it's stuff.
> 
> I agree that there are many concerns with this product. But we need to address our concerns in a civil manner, without personal attacks, or making statements that haven't been proven as yet. Both sides need to understand the concerns of the other. If, after all is said and done, this product is a failure, or causes other species to suffer, I will be in the front lines to get it pulled from the market.


*Any personal attack made against any member on this forum is a violation of forum rules.*


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

lindylou said:


> I am sure, thank you,


1) Innolytics is the manufacturer of OvoControl so we have a pretty good idea of volumes -- in a good year, the use of nicarbazin in chickens would likely surpass OvoControl in pigeons by 1,000,000 to 1. Nicarbazin in chickens is used to prevent coccidiosis, an enteric disease, during the first 28 days of age...not to put fat on them. In this case, the DNA and RNA of these species are irrelevant. 

2) OvoControl has been used in pigeons under field conditions for more than 5 years....in municipalities, power plants, hospitals, oil refineries, college campuses, paper mills, chemical plants, distribution centers, rail stations, dairies, malls, agricultural processing, etc., etc., etc. Customers are typically delighted with a gradually declining population of pigeons through attrition….all without having to poison or trap a single bird.

3) The reversibility of the contraceptive effects of nicarbazin has been illustrated in Pekin ducks (Reinoso at Penn State, 2008), domestic chickens (Jones at Clemson, 1989), Japanese quail (Miller at the USDA National Wildlife Research Center, 2003) and in feral pigeons (Avery at the USDA Wildlife Services Experiment Station, Gainesville, FL, 2006). While the dose may be different, the drug has the same contraceptive effect in all avian species….and always fully reversible. 

4) OvoControl has a wide range of safety and efficacy. The LD50 metric puts the acute toxicity into perspective – nicarbazin has an LD50 of greater than 10,000 mg/kg body weight. This is roughly the same figure as for table sugar. Overdosing OvoControl has no effect – just like people, you can only be contracepted once. A dog that fills up on bait will reach his physical fill long before any toxic effects. In other words, the recommended dose (5 grams/bird/day) is good, but more is not going to hurt them. 

Many of these issues are addressed in the Frequently Asked Questions section of the OvoControl website. I encourage you to review these.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks Erick for the information, I've been meaning to look into this product more deeply and I found the information provided by yourself and Lindy-Lou to be interesting.
> 
> Whilst toxicity is a major concern for other wildlife that ingest the ovocontrol, its not the only concern. I personally wouldn't use ovocontrol whilst the following concerns are unresolved:
> 
> ...


OvoControl has no effect on raptors – they will not consume a bread-based bait. They prefer meat or fish and, in fact, cannot even pick up the kibbles with their beak.​
See the OvoControl website for more details on this subject.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

erickwolf said:


> OvoControl has no effect on raptors – they will not consume a bread-based bait. They prefer meat or fish and, in fact, cannot even pick up the kibbles with their beak.​
> See the OvoControl website for more details on this subject.


What if the raptors are eating treated pigeons as their main diet? There have been scenarios were peregrines have been introduced in cities to control the pigeon population and they eat little else. What if their main source of pigeons come from a population being treated. Will your product build up in the peregrines and cause problems for these raptors?


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

After having read it, I am personally still very uncomfortable with the following:

1. the way this drug would impact on native pigeons, doves & other wild birds that directly eat the bait. 

OvoControl will have the same contraceptive effect on all birds which are permitted to eat the bait. Therefore, when feeding OvoControl ensure that you use the proper baiting strategy. OvoControl is applied on urban rooftops on a restricted basis – 1lb/80 birds. If you cannot properly isolate feral pigeons, stop feeding the bait. See the User’s Guide for complete directions.​
2. the high frequency of use required for the drug to be effective (ie dispersing it for many consecutive days produces a much greater chance of ingestion by other species)

OvoControl must be fed daily, although that is precisely the characteristic that makes the pigeons come back each and every day. These birds are creatures of habit and relatively easy to condition to a daily baiting program. Also, at 330 grams, pigeons are relatively large, competitive and voracious consumers of OvoControl first thing in the morning.​
3.the fact that the effect on mammals that eat the bait is not yet studied.

The effects of nicarbazin have been evaluated across a range of different mammals, including 2 year chronic studies in dogs and rats. There are no effects, contraceptive or otherwise.​
4. There are fairly stringent laws against killing native animals around the world via poisoning, so any attempt to poison feral pigeons by councils would be very carefully monitored & controlled. I would imagine this care would not be taken by councils using ovovcontrol, as the extinction of other species (local or general) due to inability to reproduce, would be indirect, rather than direct. There are currently no laws to protect any native species that would be adversely affected or made extinct by ovocontrol, whereas with poisons, there are.

OvoControl has the identical registration and review requirements as does any other pesticide or toxicant.​If this was used where I lived, then the following species would also be at risk of having their populations reduced (or eliminated):

- all grainivore native pigeons such as crested pigeons, bar shouldered dove, peaceful doves, pied imperial pigeons, brown cuckoo doves, wonga pigeons etc (about a dozen species that will eat with feral pigeons )
- all native crows, ravens, & corvids
- Australian magpies (normally insectivores but will readily eat pellets , bread, and bird seed)
- pied butcherbirds
- larger honeyeaters such as noisy minors
- Ibis
- some species of duck (the black duck eats mainly on the ground, but the wood ducks are more likely to eat on a roof)

As before, OvoControl will have the same contraceptive effect on all birds – that eat the bait. If you are unable to target pigeons, simply stop using it – the effects are fully reversible. At sites where there is concern, simply mount the automatic feeder on a rooftop, load it with 25kgs of cracked corn (NO OvoControl) and begin the baiting protocol. After 2 weeks, check for non-target birds. In the US market, the only non-targets that have been reported are English House sparrows and European starlings, other invasive species. Even they get very little OvoControl due to aggressively feeding pigeons at the baiting site.​
I believe this would cause rapid local extinction of some of these birds such as magpies and butcherbirds, as they consist mainly of just one adult pair of birds who rely on one or two generations of young to protect their territory ie. no babies = can't successfully defend their territory=no habitat. 

In the US, OvoControl is permitted only in urban areas where there is a limited array of threatened or endangered birds. Furthermore, since the effects are reversible, we would argue that the use of contraceptive is infinitely safer than a toxicant, which I understand there are a variety registered in Australia. In fact, I understand that Avitrol (4-AP) was recently registered for use there.​
I guess I'm cooling towards the idea the more I read about it, knowing it will affect many native species of pigeons and other birds, not just feral pigeons.[/QUOTE]


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

almondman said:


> What if the raptors are eating treated pigeons as their main diet? There have been scenarios were peregrines have been introduced in cities to control the pigeon population and they eat little else. What if their main source of pigeons come from a population being treated. Will your product build up in the peregrines and cause problems for these raptors?


The short answer is no. OvoControl has no secondary effect -- see the white paper for details. Also, a Peregrine, even in urban conditions, does not consume exclusively pigeons. They eat everything that moves. One of the published studies showed more than 50 different species of prey in urban areas. 

The Peregrine Fund as well as ASPCA Poison Control Center confirmed that the use of OvoControl does not represent a reproductive risk to Peregrine falcons. If you give me your email address I will send you copies of their support letters. 

Lastly, I would argue that Peregrine falcons are not a terribly effective pigeon control solution. Breeding pairs, even in cities, have vast hunting territories. Unless they are raising young, each will only eat one pigeon per day -- not enough to make any kind of dent in an urban pigeon population. I have seen them nesting on the same bridge together with pigeons in Portland, OR.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I would agree that falcons are not the most effective method for pigeon control. That was not my concern. And although you are correct that pigeons are not the only diet for falcons in major cities, they do make up a major part of the diet where pigeons are readily available. 

You have answered my concern about the buildup of your product in falcons. If the Peregrine Fund and the ASPCA believes there are no worries that is good enough for me. 

Also, I read more of your information on your website and see that your product has had long term field trials and general use for some time. Have there been any concerns brought to your attention since the product became available, if used correctly? Your White Papers state that the birds must ingest the full suggested dosage to be most effective. Any deformities of babies born after ingestion if the minimum dosage is not achieved? I am just curious, not antagonistic.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

almondman said:


> I would agree that falcons are not the most effective method for pigeon control. That was not my concern. And although you are correct that pigeons are not the only diet for falcons in major cities, they do make up a major part of the diet where pigeons are readily available.
> 
> You have answered my concern about the buildup of your product in falcons. If the Peregrine Fund and the ASPCA believes there are no worries that is good enough for me.
> 
> Also, I read more of your information on your website and see that your product has had long term field trials and general use for some time. Have there been any concerns brought to your attention since the product became available, if used correctly? Your White Papers state that the birds must ingest the full suggested dosage to be most effective. Any deformities of babies born after ingestion if the minimum dosage is not achieved? I am just curious, not antagonistic.



No worries -- we try to address all questions and concerns. 

We continue to receive positive news from customers and sites willing to invest the time and resources into an OvoControl program. See a recent report from Pima College in Arizona. Users should read the directions, although in the case of OvoControl it is difficult to make mistakes. 

Nicarbazin has no teratogenic effects of any kind at any dose level or species tested. Please note that nicarbazin sold as Nicarb for chickens is registered by FDA as a medicated feed additive. The testing and regulatory protocol for any substance that goes into the human food chain is thorough. If a compound is even a suspected teratogen, it would never be registered. 

These are all good and reasonable questions and concerns. Our goal is to ensure that pigeon advocates are familiar with our technology. The more you know about this alternative, the safer our communities will be from the chronic use of poisons.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you for your response. Dave


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Erick,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to these concerns.



> As before, OvoControl will have the same contraceptive effect on all birds – that eat the bait. If you are unable to target pigeons, simply stop using it


Oh wow, so you are assuming that all potential users of this product WOULD stop using ovocontrol when other species of birds & their populations were negatively impacted. Also, you're assuming they'd notice.

That's quite an assumption!. Just think about it for a moment- councils and individuals who wish to rid themselves of pigeons are not normally bird lovers. Many are not going to give a damn if the local crows are wiped out, or some rare species of bowerbird gets wind of the regular food supply and starts eating it too. And then you have people with your own personal attitude, that we may as well take care of all the feral birds while we're it, they are `invasive' anyway.

Your average person wouldn't know a native bird from a feral and probably wouldn't take the time to watch the baiting area for weeks on end to see which other birds sneak in and grab the food too. 

You're going to get a lot of groups using this, who are only doing it for the sake of good politics. There are no laws that would force them to make sure only target birds consumed the bait

It would be nice to think of ovocontrol only being used in lab conditions, but that's NOT how it will be used, and its naive to expect that it will. Its going to be dispersed into the environment by users of any disposition or agenda. Its therefore going to affect other birds.

So we're back to the original issue- ovocontrol dispersed into the environment in the recommended quantities and frequency, will target multiple species. And that's the problem with it.
And you can't control this, though you may personally wish the best for native birds.



> toxicant, which I understand there are a variety registered in Australia. In fact, I understand that Avitrol (4-AP) was recently registered for use there.


Just to be clear, I am not advocating poisons just because I have concerns about ovocontrol.

In Australia, local councils have been testing an egg-painting system in some species which prevents eggs from hatching. (Australia Ibis)

For feral pigeons, we have city dovecoats, and use falconers to fly wedge tailed eagles in the city to disperse the pigeons. Its highly effective. What works well is flying the eagle once a week for several months, and this has erradicated the flocks pigeons from the inner city for 24 months now. Very effective, and cost effective.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

almondman said:


> The opinions expressed below are my personal feelings about this thread, and in no way reflect that of PT., the other moderators, or administrators.
> 
> Bella - thank you for the civility of your post. A few others have been a little bit over the top.
> 
> ...


Fellow pigeon lovers, I am sorry if I have ruffled a few feathers and seemed to have offended some out there; however, if I had to, I would literally risk life and limb to ensure that the farel flocks that bless, and yes I will resay it, bless the skies above me continue to fly there, least, during my lifetime. I admit that I have come out with guns blazing to question the CEO of Innolytics to try to ensure answers to the hard questions that I think we all need to hear the answer to before we decide how we feel about OvoControl. You may lable me an inconsiderate jerk or any other euphemism you may chose to describe me. My sleep will still be peaceful at night, knowing that, no matter how it sounded or was interpreted, I HAVE put out the hard questions and my conscience is clean in knowing that I caused many to think and question and not just accept. The manufacture of a drug is not usually the best place to go in order to obtain non, one sided opinion about the product. If some information has not been shared because it is not yet the time for it by Innolytics LLC, would not that be easy enough to clear up by stating it to be the reason for non-disclosure of information? Anyway, my input is done on this subject. My thread has been pulled by the administration upon request of Erick Wolf. And I will no longer be on this site again (personal choice). Mr. Wolf sent me the e-mials which I posted. I thought the information was very informative and posted it and our two way sharing on this site; apparently, he got offended that I posted it without asking him so asked it to be pulled. This information has nothing confidential in it and if I had requested it by mail and it was delivered to my home, I would not have to ask the CEO of Innolytics if I could share it with others. Once it enters my door, I become the legal recipricant of it, excuse my angst here. I have thought about it, and I do not want to be part of any forum that trys to dictate whether we can share an e-mail that was sent to us on our own personal computer, when in no way were we ever told that this information was to be kept conficential and is just a back and forth electonic debate. It had nothing to do with information shared with me on pigeon-talk that was confidential in nature. I will find another site where this type of favoratism is not displayed. I apologize for a lapse in good manners, but I would not change a thing and my sleep WILL be peaceful, as I say, it takes a shake now and then to make us humans do our homework, wake up, question, question and requestion--- think, think think, mission accomplished. Good bye fellow members


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, you got me thinking more deeply about it Lindy lou, and I appreciate that. Like I mentioned, my initial reaction to ovocontrol was positive, without having thought about it or read all the facts. You motivated me to look into it, which I've been meaning to do for ages.

I get the impression that it may work as an Avian contraceptive. I just don't think it should be dispersed in open environments where non-targeted birds will also have their populations adversely affected. 

I do not agree that the decimation of crow populations and other urban dwelling birds is a desirable or acceptable secondary effect of ovocontrol. The manufacturer seems to disagree on the basis that feral birds don't matter. And that in itself makes me deeply suspicious of these people....its not about humane treatment of birds if decimating the populations of other birds (including native species such as crows) is ok with them. Its about making money from the pest control industry. Its about propagating the idea of birds as pests, `invasive', & undesirable. How can I trust a product form people who think like this, and push those myths in order to make money? 

I have come to the conclusion that I do not support the use of this product in open environments.

However, I'm impressed with the hard work and research that went into creating what may become a safe Avian Contraceptive. Hopefully it will be used wisely.


----------



## lindylou (Jul 25, 2009)

To ask the Company CEO hard questions is an attack? Excuse me, hard questions will come from many forums other than this one, in news interviews, from other research companies and from government and environmental agencies regarding use of OvoControl and I am sure that Erick Wolf is well aware of this fact already. and has dealt with many. In fact, already hard questions HAVE been expressed by PiCAS in the UK as well as other concerned environmental organizations about the use of OvoControl to control farel pigeons. Anyone undertaking a campaign to break new ground in the field of species control is going to encounter far more hard, frank questioning that I have put on the table here. Also, Erick Wolf has been given as much of a chance to answer for himself any of these questions as anyone else who has met with questions and concerns about this or that. I really don't think he would endorse the idea that he has not been given a chance. However, he has not given anything but vagueness in anwer to many of not only mine, but others queries. As to perhaps him feeling it is not the right time for disclosure of certain information or he does not have the answer, why not just say so, I would be satisfied with that. It is unfair and one sided to say I am too "out there" but not addressing some issues of non disclosure here. As to perhaps him thinking it is "none of our busness," well I am sorry but I certainly cannot agree with you there. IT CERTAINLY IS OUR BUSINESS because we share this planet and the species around us and we have a right to want to protect it and have our questions answered; Perhaps the answer, as to threats to other non-targeted species and huge drops in farel flocks is a non issue and maybe it is not. In any event we will all find out, lets hope for a positive, effective drug that will be a blessing as compared to other alternatives. However, this forum is for an exchange of ideas and opinions and I have mine, others have theirs, usually the true lies somewhere in between. If you are right, as to Mr. Wolf being in favor of non-disclosure at the time, an honest admission of this would have sufficed and I and most of us would have understood this. However, he has NOT STATED THAT. I then to agree with Bella, it is very difficult for me to trust these "big business" science that want to get rid of what it considers a Pest, which are our farels. I have cared for and cuddled too many to want anything short of the best for them, and I am willing to stick my neck out to achieve it. I am not trying to win a popularity contest. At my age? Duh!


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

Our objective is to share the facts for pigeon contraception. We are confident that the science speaks for itself. OvoControl is a safe, effective and humane tool to help manage pigeon flocks. The underlying technology is well documented and studied. Field testing at an array of different commercial, industrial and municipal sites has revealed a very effective program to manage down bird numbers through attrition. All of the leading animal welfare and conservation groups including HSUS, ASPCA, PETA, the Fund for Animals, Audubon, the Peregrine Fund advocate for bird contraception. 

We have absolutely nothing to hide and simply want to share the information on this useful new, bird-friendly technology. It represents a vast improvement over the conventional tools commonly used for pigeon mitigation today. We hope that the pigeon advocates that listen in to “Pigeon-Talk” arrive at the same conclusion and help introduce the product to their respective networks.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Erick,

I appreciate you taking the time to address everyone's concerns. While I myself am not one to promote any kind of artificial contraception, I do appreciate you answering the concerns of all our members. 

Thank you for your time and hope you will continue to answer all questions as they are asked.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

We are always happy to participate in a constructive dialog. From time to time we have to weigh in, especially when there is misinformation published about our product. There is obviously no requirement to use OvoControl, but Pigeon Talk members should be aware of this option -- especially when communities and commercial sites in their neighborhood are considering less humane alternatives.


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

erickwolf said:


> Our objective is to share the facts for pigeon contraception. We are confident that the science speaks for itself. OvoControl is a safe, effective and humane tool to help manage pigeon flocks. The underlying technology is well documented and studied. Field testing at an array of different commercial, industrial and municipal sites has revealed a very effective program to manage down bird numbers through attrition. All of the leading animal welfare and conservation groups including HSUS, ASPCA, PETA, the Fund for Animals, Audubon, the Peregrine Fund advocate for bird contraception.
> 
> We have absolutely nothing to hide and simply want to share the information on this useful new, bird-friendly technology. It represents a vast improvement over the conventional tools commonly used for pigeon mitigation today. We hope that the pigeon advocates that listen in to “Pigeon-Talk” arrive at the same conclusion and help introduce the product to their respective networks.


Erik,

Would you be willing to answer the following questions to help allay some of the concerns people are having? 

What government agencies have been involved in approving OvoControl for general use? FDA, EPA, USDA?

When was OvoControl first developed?

What year was it approved for use/How long has it been in use?

Have there been *any* adverse side affects reported from the use of OvoControl?

How long was OvoControl tested in the lab? (acute vs chronic studies, or both) How long in actual field trials?

Has there been any follow up studies done to ensure the OvoContol continues to be a safe product?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

almondman said:


> Erik,
> 
> Would you be willing to answer the following questions to help allay some of the concerns people are having?
> 
> ...


----------



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks again Erik. Your responses are much appreciated, and have answered most, if not all, of *my* concerns. Again, these are only my opinions, and my concerns.

I'm sure there will always be the nay-sayers, but I personally belief that your product serves a purpose in managing pigeons, ducks, and geese that need to be controlled in a humane way. I also think, given your answers, that OvoControl seems to be the better alternative to poisoning, shooting, and other lethal means of stopping bird populations from expanding.

In light of the fact that this product has been in use since 2007 and field tested since 2004, without any reportable adverse effects, I would venture to say that this product is as safe, or safer, than most of the other "control" methods available.

For those of you concerned with long term use, and it's effects on other bird species, only time will tell. But how long is long enough? The active ingredient, Nicarbazin was first used in 1950, OvoControl for geese has been used since 2005, and for pigeons since 2007, 62 years, 7 years, 5 years. There appears to be no data supporting any claims that OvoControl had any ill effects on other bird species in areas where it has been used.

Add to all this that it has been approved for general use by the FDA, USDA, EPA, USF&WS, and recently, the European Food Safety Authority, and I think that we can believe that the product has stood up to fairly tough scrutiny.

As mentioned, only time will tell what, if any, ill effects might show up. But you should all know that making false or misleading claims about a product's toxicity, environmental impact, or misleading the public about any reported adverse effects, can lead to legal action being taken. I doubt Erik is willing to take that risk. 

As far as making money as the reason for developing a product, it would be very, very, foolish to develop anything that would bankrupt a company. Of course it's about making money. You simply can not develop a product if there is no return on investment. Does this mean that Eric, and his company don't care anything about their product controlling the pigeon population, you will have to ask him.


----------



## erickwolf (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks for the support. From the very beginning of OvoControl development, we viewed contraception as a common sense alternative for the management of a wild bird poopulations. In fact, when we started I had no idea that poisoning pigeons was even legal -- turns out that the US is among a small handful of counties around the world that permits it -- Australia and Canada included. 

Contraception of wildlife is not a new idea, although OvoControl was the first contraceptive product developed that passed the regulatory hurdles. Since then a new contraceptive has been introduced for deer (Gonacon) and more recently for feral horses (PZP) -- now there are three. 

We continue to collaborate with the various manufacturers and agencies to introduce the contraception of wildlife as a safe and humane management tool.


----------

