# What color/pattern is this cock bird ?



## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi,

I have a cock pigeon which looks like a red spread on the whole body.

Can anyone tell me what is the actual color/pattern of this bird please ?

The pattern is more visible in the second photo with the flash on but both may not of better quality as they were snapped during my cell phone


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I didn't know that having "spread" or not mattered on a recessive red pigeon. Does it?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Henk69 said:


> I didn't know that having "spread" or not mattered on a recessive red pigeon. Does it?


*Hi Henk: Yes it does the spread will hide the tail bar making the tail look a uniform red color,this also applys to the red bars and checks in the wings.However for the most part recessive red does a poor job of masking, so to get a realy good recessive red with a uniform red color is is a challenging task, for the breeder* GEORGE


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

So what is this cock bird ? Recessive red spread ? I mated this cock to a blue checker hen.

Only had one baby yet and that its like th father. Another egg has hatched under a foster 2 days ago, it seems thats a black, its all heavily dark bodied than what the first squab looked like at that age.

Also this cock had one flight on the left wing which had white color towards the stem of the feather and red in the outer area of the feather. I fail to notice that this time after the molt, I will recheck. The first baby doesn't show any of those odd difference. Will try to post a picture of the first young one soon and that of the mother


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I hope the piture links are working .............

So the cock bird in the post above, is mated with the blue checker (I hope this is what a blue checker is) shown below










and I get the bird below, its 2 months and 14 days old now










There is one more squab but its only 6 days now


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like your hen is split for recessive red!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Pretty birds..c.hert


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

c.hert said:


> Pretty birds..c.hert


Thanks  I always loved the fancy to the performing pigeons


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Looks like your hen is split for recessive red!


Could it be ? Sorry because I cannot still get this genetic stuff to my head 

That hen was hatched in my loft, she has a blue checker father and a black spread mother.

This is that couple










This is the close up of her father










And here is the mother










So the hen in question can still be split for recessive red ???


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Bump bump


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Hm. Then in that case, Recessive red must have been hiding in the parents as well. Because in order to get Recessive red babies, both parents must have at least one copy of the gene to pass along. Unless you have other RR birds in the loft that could have snuck in with your cockbird.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Hm. Then in that case, Recessive red must have been hiding in the parents as well. Because in order to get Recessive red babies, both parents must have at least one copy of the gene to pass along. Unless you have other RR birds in the loft that could have snuck in with your cockbird.


So you mean to say that, in order to visibly express recessive red, both the genes in the pigeon should be RR ?

If I mate two RR birds then is there a chance that I will get RR birds ?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*two rec reds make 100% rec reds*

If you mate two of these reds together, they will make all rec red young.

The fact that your blue t check to black produced a youngster that was able to produce red tells you that at least one of the birds carries red. If you never get reds from this pair, then only one of them carries it.

You can often find bronze on pattern birds that are split for rec red. In blacks, the spread factor won't normally allow the red bronze to show except in baby feather, when the black feathers will be tipped bronze.

You may have something more than rec red as I see a fairly strong tail bar which I'm not used to seeing in rec reds. This does come through with ember reds and dirty factor, possibly in combinations of rec red and ember as well. This is something that I'm trying to sort out in my own pigeons as well.

Whether you are dealing with ember or recessive red doesn't matter a great deal, they can both make red pigeons and both are autosomal recessives. It seems that recessive red is better at masking out all blue than ember is but in t patterns and spreads, it can be pretty confusing as to which of these we are dealing with.

Bill


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks Bill, I think the baby is going to turn out to be a cock, so I have to drop the pairing plans now. I have another cock bird similar to the red cock bird shown here, which is mated to a black hen (almost spread apart for a set of white patched on the back after from where the tail starts). This hen is also from the same pair shown in the post #9. These new pair gives me pigeon with red (darker than that in this picture) body and ash tail. Would that also be termed as recessive red ? Its late for a photo now but I can take one tomorrow for sure


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*White doesn't matter*



sreeshs said:


> Thanks Bill, I think the baby is going to turn out to be a cock, so I have to drop the pairing plans now. I have another cock bird similar to the red cock bird shown here, which is mated to a black hen (almost spread apart for a set of white patched on the back after from where the tail starts). This hen is also from the same pair shown in the post #9. These new pair gives me pigeon with red (darker than that in this picture) body and ash tail. Would that also be termed as recessive red ? Its late for a photo now but I can take one tomorrow for sure


A spread blue pigeon can have white markings such as pied or grizzle, still spread. A white rump is more common in patterns such as t pattern or lower patterns. Some t patterns can be so dark as to look spread if they have all the darkeners like sooty, smoky and dirty. This is what blackwing archangels have as well as grease quills which make them very glossy.

Without a picture, I can't say exactly what you may be describing. Pictures are always worth 1,000 words.  Ash tails usually will also have ash in the flight feathers, the mark of the ash. Blue based reds can also have ashy tails but it is not from ash red. Will look forward to some pics, nice looking birds.

Bill


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

These are the different snaps of 3 young birds which I got from the other pair, these birds are not like the red young bird in post #5, so I was thinking of how to improve them. If I mate one of these birds to the young red bird in post #5, can anyone please tell me what are my chances of color and pattern obtainable ?


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## YaSin11 (Jul 23, 2009)

Sreesh,
 I always like your birds and their fancy feathered feet. You know I'm not a 'genetics' person, so I wanted to ask you, 'what's all the fuss about RR's?'....why are Rec.Red's sought out in breeding?...are they rare?...Red, almond colored birds are quiet common in the region where we are. Could you explain to me in lay mans terms why ppl look for RR birds?..just a silly Q..thanks and good luck  Peace, YaSin.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I have whites and blacks of the similar type (ie, quality crest, foot feathers, above average size and uniform spread pattern) and I need reds too, in the red pair that I bought, both birds turned out to be cocks  I am trying to manage within the loft a pair which can give me quality reds. Its only becaue of my interest in colors and I want to set up a pair which give me quality red birds like the cock bird in the very first picture 

And just to add, most of the reds we get in this breed, is the type I have shown in the post #16, the birds are not uniform spread, there are color changes towards the tail, I need some beautiful uniform spread red colors birds


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The very first bird in those pictures is Recessive red as well, but the others look very close to velvets (t-patterns) other than the fact they have red on their muffs, so that is probably what is hiding underneath the RR. The second to last row looks like an indigo velvet.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The very first bird in those pictures is Recessive red as well, but the others look very close to velvets (t-patterns) other than the fact they have red on their muffs, so that is probably what is hiding underneath the RR. The second to last row looks like an indigo velvet.


Thanks Becky  so if this RR bird turns out to be a female, then I can mate her with the RR cock and hope to get RR babies...


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*They look ash red to me*



sreeshs said:


> These are the different snaps of 3 young birds which I got from the other pair, these birds are not like the red young bird in post #5, so I was thinking of how to improve them. If I mate one of these birds to the young red bird in post #5, can anyone please tell me what are my chances of color and pattern obtainable ?


The first bird looks rec red but all the rest look ash red to me. The red/bronze color on them probably indicates that they are carrying rec red. The ones with the most red in the shield are probably t patterns and the ones with less may be spread. Either of them can make good colored recessive reds but spread factor helps to make a more uniform red color in recessive red.

Test mating to a recessive red or recessive red carrier is the only way to be sure that they are carrying rec red as it can be another bronze that is making these ash reds as red as they are. The dark gray color is often a result of ash red that is split for recessive red. Indigo can do this as well but they are often darker and very often have a ribbon in the tail.

The best base for recessive red includes t pattern and spread with darkeners like sooty dirty and smoky. Whether ash base or blue base doesn't seem to be as important as the other factors.

Bill


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Out of these four young birds, two of them are about 2 months and 20 days and the other two are of the age 1 month and 5 days...... so its now a waiting game for them to grown up. I think I will keep the first bird in #16 and the one in #5 and eventually mate them to find out how things proceed


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