# Hawked out again!



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Because my birds got accidentally escaped today, a hawk ended up swooping them from the air. An hour later a smaller hawk swooped from below after my birds landed on our loft. So that is 3 times I got attacked this month. Last week was on lock down. The first week of this month I got attacked. Another lock down is to come.

That was a beautiful hawk though. I like the second smaller younger one better. The other one was too big to look cute.


----------



## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

Last year, YB's I had the same thing happen to me! It pretty hard to train and ship your young bird team when they are constantly being hit by Mr. Hawk. Even worse when they are locked down. 

Personally, the hawk has his place in the world and I respect that. I just hate how brazen he can be when your standing 3-4 feet from the loft and he swoops right past you to snatch that bird from the board. 

I dont care how pretty they look, I wish they were over populated, I would love to thin them out......


----------



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

RodSD said:


> Because my birds got accidentally escaped today, a hawk ended up swooping them from the air. An hour later a smaller hawk swooped from below after my birds landed on our loft. So that is 3 times I got attacked this month. Last week was on lock down. The first week of this month I got attacked. Another lock down is to come.
> 
> That was a beautiful hawk though. *I like the second smaller younger one *better. The other one was too big to look cute.


It is just that time of year. They are just drifting around looking for food.

Oh, by the way, the ones I like are the slow ones!   

Ace


----------



## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Timber said:


> I just hate how brazen he can be when your standing 3-4 feet from the loft and he swoops right past you to snatch that bird from the board.


You know what I do when I see hawks swooping down when I'm on my roof? I have this fishing net with a long handle, there will be a time that hawk will swoop down closer, able to catch it...I did this one time and the hawk just about 10 inches away from my net and I felt his wings tap the edge, I swang and almost got it, he knows I'm trying to catch him too, but after that late afternoon (almost dawn) I stayed and he just flew away and left my birds alone...I asked myself once I caught it , what am I going to do with it? NOTHING, so since then I just get a long pole with a black bag tied to the end just to flag my birds and flag the hawk away...So far so good....


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Most likely, the hawks are working as a team, husband and wife style. The bigger one is the female, and the smaller one is the male. Is it legal to trap them in your area?


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I think it is not legal to trap them unless you have a license. Today I find more trouble. The hawk now has made my next door neighbor's eucalyptus tree a roosting site. That tree is literally like 30 feet from my loft. I also see some semblance of a nest. I have now more trouble than previous. My loft seems to be just right below that tree. I am sitting duck! Damn predator might start nesting near my loft.


----------



## homeseeker (Nov 12, 2008)

This will be my first year with pigeons but not with hawks. I live next to a large field and the hawks are typically hunting rodents in there. Also at any time there are 20-30 doves and 10 20 feral pigeons in mine or my neighbours yard along with many smaller birds. My hopes are that with all that other natural game my birds will stand a better chance. Mornings and evening we have crows around too so I hope that helps. Owls used to be a problem here when my Brittany was a pup I had to walk around the yard hovering over her to keep them from taking her. Losing a pigion is bad but hundreds of dollars in a puppy would realy suck.


----------



## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

RodSD said:


> I am sitting duck! Damn predator might start nesting near my loft.


I would let it build it and then tear it down, and I would do so until it left.


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Hawk problems are inevitable. Pigeons versus hawks will always be an eternal struggle.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

fastpitch dad said:


> I would let it build it and then tear it down, and I would do so until it left.


It's illegal to do that .. if you get caught, it's a pretty hefty fine and possibly jail time. If you like, I will find the actual part of the Federal Migratory Bird Treat Act that makes it so. I just don't want anyone here doing anything that is A) illegal and B) going to get them in trouble.

Terry


----------



## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> It's illegal to do that .. if you get caught, it's a pretty hefty fine and possibly jail time. If you like, I will find the actual part of the Federal Migratory Bird Treat Act that makes it so. I just don't want anyone here doing anything that is A) illegal and B) going to get them in trouble.
> 
> Terry


Then let me rephrase that .
If the tree was on my land that the bird was trying to nest in, I would trim the limbs back.
I never suggested to them to do that, I was only stating what I would do .
And if I did (which I haven't) I surely wouldn't post it here.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

AMEN! Most likely a pair of coopers, it is not very common for two species to hunt close to each other, although it does happen. We have a pair of coopers that have nested 2 doors down the last 3 years, they do not let other hawks hang around! ( four chicks last year, they have a clear view of my loft exits from the nest. 
The trick is to get a few hawk smart pigeons to teach the hawks it is not worth the effort.
This year i used my last homer hen, (She can spot a hawks intentions a mile away!)
and six or seven high fling tipplers. The hen spots the hawks, the high flyers take of and go higher than the hawk cares to. I only lost ONE young bird this year, a small mixed flock of rollers, tipplers and the "body guard" (15 BIRDS)
I love the hawks as much as the pigeons. At the end of the season, the young gave up and the old birds found it hardly worth the effort. 
There are times of the year, the coopers do not hunt near the nest, THEN they let the youngsters hunt the local area. The art is to settle young birds in the period when the parents are letting the area repopulate with song birds.
IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO KEEP YOUNG BIRDS IN A SETTLING FLIGHT UNTILL THEY CAN FLY STRONG!!!!
Then make sure, at least at first,to let the "trained" birds out, and if the hawks are not "checking" the menu, let the youngsters out. 
This method will not work with fantails, runts, and non flying breeds mind you. But if a pigeon breed is not flight oriented the breed is not for me ! Dave.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

learn to deal with it.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

fastpitch dad said:


> Then let me rephrase that .
> If the tree was on my land that the bird was trying to nest in, I would trim the limbs back.
> I never suggested to them to do that, I was only stating what I would do .
> And if I did (which I haven't) I surely wouldn't post it here.


Nuff said! Thank you for the rephrasing.

Terry


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, I see the hawk(s) now around 5 pm or around sunset roosting on that tree. I decided to work around it by calling my all my birds in before 5 pm. These predators used to live 3 or 4 houses down. Now they decided to live next door. They actually have a nice spot overlooking my loft. What a way to start 2009! Last year I've been plague with constant attacks which led me to not fly my baby birds until they are 6 or 8 weeks old, strong on the wing. My birds are very hawk aware.

The last time a pair of coopers hit me I lost one bird and had an injured bird. They are very clever hunting. If I get really pissed I am going to ask the animal control agency what they can do. My worst fear is when these hawks decided to build a nest on top of our pine tree where my loft happened to be below. That would be like free dinner!

In the end I think I will either get wiped out or I will end up with a very hawk, smart, aware bird that is very fast to escape.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Rod,

Animal Control won't be able to do anything to help you nor will they likely give you any helpful advice .. not because they are bad or bad people .. just because they don't know. It is possible (not likely, but possible) that you could get Dept. of Fish & Game or U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service to at least advise you of what your options are (and they aren't many).

The regional office for Fish & Game is right there in San Diego. http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regions/5/

Terry


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Terry,

Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that. The animal control was very helpful when I was searching for my lost pigeon before. They love animals!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

RodSD said:


> Terry,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that. The animal control was very helpful when I was searching for my lost pigeon before. They love animals!


They do love animals, but they have no jurisdiction over protected species of wild birds. Also, if you do call a government agency for information/advice about your hawk situation, be very, very careful in what you say and do not give them your name, address, and phone #. Just inquire as an interested party, so to speak. 

If you are not familiar with what happened to some roller pigeon fanciers that took their hawk situations into their own hands, then I will post a link to the thread(s) here. Those guys took the law into their own hands, killed hawks, and ended up in jail with huge fines. Because of them, pigeon fanciers are suspect, so be careful. While I, personally, think the roller guys got exactly what they deserved, I do understand their frustration with losing their birds to hawks.

Sometimes it is possible to make arrangements for a hawk to be removed from where it is if it is causing damage (ie. killing your pigeons), but it has to be done properly and legally .. that's what Fish & Game might be able to advise you about.

I'm sorry to keep saying "might", "maybe", and similar words, but it's quite possible to get someone in a government agency on the phone that knows less than you do about things, and then everybody and everybirdy is in trouble.

Terry


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I can't kill hawks. I know they are illegal to even harm. And I happen to like them. I got introduced to pigeon keeping because I wanted to have a falcon (falconry). But my parents said that we don't have falcons at our place so I ended up searching for a pet bird that can return. I found homing pigeons! So these predators introduced me to this current hobby.

To me hawks problem is a government's problem. So I will let them solve it. I understand the intentions that government did to protect these BOP. I happened to be trained as a biologist so I love "life." I know that everything has a place. What those roller fanciers did was indeed wrong.

Count me in as one peaceful, law abiding citizen. Having grown up with military family I ended up knowing rules.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

RodSD said:


> I can't kill hawks. I know they are illegal to even harm. And I happen to like them. I got introduced to pigeon keeping because I wanted to have a falcon (falconry). But my parents said that we don't have falcons at our place so I ended up searching for a pet bird that can return. I found homing pigeons! So these predators introduced me to this current hobby.
> 
> To me hawks problem is a government's problem. So I will let them solve it. I understand the intentions that government did to protect these BOP. I happened to be trained as a biologist so I love "life." I know that everything has a place. What those roller fanciers did was indeed wrong.
> 
> Count me in as one peaceful, law abiding citizen. Having grown up with military family I ended up knowing rules.


Thanks, Rod! I hope you find a solution for your hawk problem. My solution is simply barricading my birds when the hawk season is here.  I've had hawks try to pull my birds out through the cage bars/wire, and I hate having them visit my yard, but they do, and I just deal with it as best I can .. sometimes that has not been very well as I've lost some birds to hawks. Fortunately, I have not seen "my" big Coopers female here for awhile .. I hope she has moved on.

Terry


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

The University of Minnesota has one of the best raptor programs anywhere. I'm sure they know how to deal with the birds of prey dilemma.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

*Hawks*

If you insist on leting your birds out you may have to hire some one that does Falconry to capture your hawk. At least thats leagle, they can either keep them or relocate them.


----------



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I have been letting my young birds out only for about 4 or 5 minutes as I water and feed them. I call them in by whistling and they come quick. However, yesterday, as I was doing this, a hawk got my last white young bird (I have some white old birds) and took it in flight, about ten feet above my head.

I was so mad. The hawk took the bird into a tree and I ran into the garage and grabbed a long poled fish net and was going to get my birdf back. At the same time, the crows (who were around when this happened) were going crazy flying around and making their "caw" sounds, but they did not go near the hawk.

As I ran towards the tree where the hawk had my bird, it left with my bird and went about a hundred yards away. I followed into the heavy woods and when I got close, it left again and went further. I gave up because now it was on someone elses property.

I checked the internet concerning getting permission to "control" hawk problems legally and it seems that it can not be done except under very very limited circumstances, and taking pigeons ain't one of them.

I check the trees before I let my birds out. I only have them out for under five minutes and they trap fast. I have dogs in the yard and I am in the yard, when my birds are out. WTH is a guy supposed to do?

I went online and found several people discussing these hawk vs pigeon problems and almost everyone thinks that it is something that has to be tolerated, at best. Some indicated that the hawks take the weak or stupid, and thus actually do us racers a "favor" by eliminating those we should have culled anyway. Some actually state that pigeons can be genetically equipped as "hawk savvy" and a person could incorporate that (and it will incorporate itself naturally through these losses) in breeding programs. Some who sell pigeons actually make part of their sales pitch that their particular birds are genetically hawk savvy.

I have racers, but I had intentions of starting a white dove release program this coming summer or fall. But now, I just don't see me being able to do that as the whites just are too enticing apparently. My colored racers have been okay so far (I lost one in a year), but the whites just don't make it. It would be foolish to keep the whites locked up all year, as that would not work for a dove release business.

I am going to try and rent an F-16 from the Air Force.

Just to scare the hawks, of course 

Seriously though. I may give up on the white birds and just try to keep my racers in tip top shape and let the hawks give it their best shot and let my birds "learn". Sadly, some will surely get taken.

What would I do if coyotes were taking my miniature horses?...hmmm.....Would I try and breed coyote savvy miniature horses? No. Don't be silly.

I would either get something that coyotes would stay away from, such as herding dogs, or burrows or llama's I guess.

So.....Anyone know what hawks stay away from? And the answer ain't crows, I assure you. 

Is there anything that eats hawks and doesn't also eat pigeons?

Just thinking out loud


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I have been letting my young birds out only for about 4 or 5 minutes as I water and feed them. I call them in by whistling and they come quick. However, yesterday, as I was doing this, a hawk got my last white young bird (I have some white old birds) and took it in flight, about ten feet above my head.
> 
> I was so mad. The hawk took the bird into a tree and I ran into the garage and grabbed a long poled fish net and was going to get my birdf back. At the same time, the crows (who were around when this happened) were going crazy flying around and making their "caw" sounds, but they did not go near the hawk.
> 
> ...


The Hawk will take them all out...one by one. That's what they do...they return to where they got take-out before until there is no more take-out to be had.
Keep your birds in lock down. If you can, attach an aviary to your loft so they can exercise. They will be content and it beats being eaten alive.


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I happen to love it when crows are around! Hawks are hesitant to be in the area when crows are noisily cawing here and there. So to keep them around, I sometimes throw old pieces of bread onto my rooftop. The treats attracts crows to my house and keeps the hawks away.


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2009)

Charis said:


> The Hawk will take them all out...one by one. That's what they do...they return to where they got take-out before until there is no more take-out to be had.
> Keep your birds in lock down. If you can, attach an aviary to your loft so they can exercise. They will be content and it beats being eaten alive.


Chris is right, they may take your young and weaker ones first but that doesnt mean they will ever stop til they take every bird you have thru ambush or any other tactic in their bag of trickery... even hawk savy birds fall victim cuz as your birds get smarter so do the hawks ...have you ever seen the look of a cooper that has locked onto its prey , they are determined to get them by any means possible and if you think about it your birds only worry til the time they reach their loft , a bird of prey is honing its skills and thinking of ways to get its next meal (your birds) 24 hours a day 7 days a week ...pigeon thoughts are only made of this is my box or perch,wheres the food and of his lady love  all distractions that could lead to his death very quickly


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

It's an endless battle.


----------



## Guest (Jan 26, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> It's an endless battle.


 I totally agree


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Handled right you can have the hawks around, and not loose that much of your flock. Use only your old birds first. A flight cage big enough for your fliers is helpful, but not always necessary. Flying mid winter is out. 
Once it starts to warm up, lock your old birds out in the flight, for a few hours a day, morning and evening if possible. The hawks will come and try to get at them, but can't. YES your fliers will freak out, but they will have a very good lesson that it is dangerous out there. (and they will still be alive).
Remember this is not theory, i can see the coopers hawks nest from were i sit and watch T.V. 
After a week or so of this, Hopefully during the hawks nesting season, you will most likely only have two hawks, a pair try to hit your birds (they are very territorial). After a week or so of trying to get your locked up birds, they usually are less interested. That is when you let your old birds out the first time, if my experience is typical they will NOT want to leave the loft, BUT make them.
If possible, shoot off a bottle rocket or 2, this will hopefully set the hawks on edge, but believe me later in the season they ignore them totally.
Make sure it is a clear sunny day, and CALM! I like to do it when the leaves are not out all the way(better view for your birds)
Flag up you your old birds, true most will not fly after being locked up all winter, but some will, and flagging them up will set them on edge, making them more alert. If possible have your dogs, out and family members, ect. in the yard with you, early in the season it sometimes makes the hawks think twice . Later in the season, they do not CARE, LOL! But by that time your old birds will come out and take off knowing the game.
This works best with homers and tipplers, but i only lost 2 birminghams last year. If you have all rollers i would suggest adding two or three homers or tipplers to your loft, at least untill you teach the other birds(they seem to be more alert) 
Read up on the hawks in your area, learn when they start nesting, hatch ect. I have found there is a window when the young hatch that the parent hawks leave the local area alone, as far as hunting goes(to let it repopulate with song birds ect. so they will have lots of prey to help teach the youngsters to hunt) This is when you settle your young birds, keep them locked up preferable in a flight, until they are strong of wing, yes you might lose some off the loft, i have found not nearly as many as by the hawks.(i only lost 2 out of twenty
As i have said in other posts, i like the coopers that LOVE to TRY to eat my birds. Once your birds are trained, it is a gas watching the young try to catch your pigeons, they are real bad at it! and learn to ignore them. I almost got a picture of two young coopers and some of my birds sitting on my garage, the pigeons knew the coopers were no threat. The dangerous time is late winter, very early spring and fall, because of the migration of other coopers, goshawks ect. That YOU have not educated. Dave.
HAWK lover, and PIGEON lover! P.S. our coopers pair raised 4 young this year! REMEMBER, most pigeons are NOT stupid!


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

*ect.*

One last note, pigeons do have a genetic ability to watch for anything "flying over them" even when i was young(late 60's early 70's ) when hawks were RARE.
in the areas i lived in my birds would freak whenever ANYTHING flew over, crow, low flying air plane, or just my guineas flying up to roost. 
Try sometimes with a show bird in a pen, ( One that has never seen a hawk) take a paper plate and cast a shadow on them, you will be surprised. Dave


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for the advice Dave.

I have been dealing with hawks since January of last year after I restarted with this hobby. I noticed that the hawks are getting smarter as months go by. In other words my losses are increasing even though I lock down even more. I also noticed that hawks have varying intelligence. Some are very smart, skillful and persistent. Some are not that persistent. The most persistent one stays 1-2 hours on top of my loft and wont leave even scaring them. They just watch my birds fly and wait for them to land. So now I don't treat hawks as one kind, but different ones with varying skills. The worst part is that I noticed they adapt as well. They are not stupid!

The hawks can see my pigeons inside my loft because of hardware cloth. In fact the hawk just sits on top of the fence and just look at my pigeons. It is a staring contest. Once my pigeons see the hawks as not a threat, I think they are dead meat! When I release my birds they are very flighty. The one that is not nervously agitated usually gets targeted.

What is your experience with Tipplers?


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

You can beat them. What kind of hawks are you dealing with? Where do you live? What breed do you keep? I have been dealing with hawks for a few years now. Last years flock was Made up of one old homer hen, One cock homer, 6 tipplers, about 8 Birmingham rollers as well as 4 birm.X oriental cross birds. 
Only lost the homer cock, and one Birmingham.
What time of year do the hawks sit and watch your birds? 
Around here, i rate the most troubling hawks this way.
#1 coopers, #2 Peregrine (but i have never seen one hit my birds) #3 Goshawks(only during migration) Redtails? only the youngest or dumbest pigeon is caught by them! i have had them hit my birds twice NO CONTEST.
I have heard Sharpshins can be a problem, we have them around here , but not often, and have never had one make a serious pass at my birds.
A coopers will almost always hit birds sitting, but can chase and get them in the air, AFTER spooking them into flying. If your birds are first attacked in the air it is a peregrine. I live in Northern Ill. so depending on were you live, you might have other species, but i know of none as good as coopers, and peregrines, at catching pigeons.
In a mixed flock tipplers are great to distract a pair of coopers, YES Coopers almost always hunt in pairs, the exceptions are when setting on eggs, or the young are very young. If you see a medium sized hawk WAY up not flying fast, that is one of the pair of coopers, the other is in the tree tops some were.
Remember, hawks are not really all that smart, actually the pigeon is rated as more capable of learning than hawks. 
Never give your birds open loft, I.E. when you are not around until they are hawk smart.
I have a 40 year old maple Hanging right over my loft, the hawks can hit them from 20 feet or as far away as they want.
Hawks ARE instinctual, and you have to use this to get around them.
Again, these methods will NOT work with non flying breeds, letting them out is ONLY teaching the hawks to eat pigeons! Dave.


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

i think it all comes down to location , some people just got it worse then others ..so you do what you have to to adjust to the amount of losses your willing to take .


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! What location could be worse than 200 feet from a coopers nest in a hawk migrating flyway? In a hawk cage in a zoo maybe? Dave


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

well I would think being near a nest you are safer then being away from one so consider yourself lucky as I live within the hunting grounds of not only coopers but sharpies and the occasional perigrines as well .. trust me if your not losing your rollers your in the clear ..rollers in my yard would be lost at the rate of one a day at least


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I have calculated my losses for this year with respect to hawks. I lost 1/3 of the total pigeons I have since last year. So for every 9 pigeons, the hawk gets 3. This doesn't include the birds that got injured, only the dead ones. If I include the injured birds such as those with puncture wounds or tailless birds, then I calculated it to be 1/2 or 50 percent. So there! Half of my birds are getting hit or dead! What I am doing now is that for every dead bird I breed 2 birds to compensate.

The calculation I use is very simple. 

losses = total Dead birds/ total number of birds for one year * 100

hawk damage = (total dead birds + injured birds)/total number of birds for one year * 100

I didn't include any birds that died on my loft because of diseases. In fact I only got one bird that died with a disease on my loft.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

No matter were you live you can deal with hawks. If it is not worth the effort they HAVE to find easier prey. I have only had the nest near me 3 years, and it is MUCH harder now. Give in lose birds. I know the hawks almost as well as my birds. In this day and age there is a lot more to training than just settling and flying them. Dave


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

LOL! You folks should start raising cooped up show birds. sounds like to much open, unsupervised loft flying to me! Pigeons are way smarter than hawks..... BUT they have to be given a chance to learn to avoid them.
A side note, once you teach them, your tipplers, and homers will be in top condition. 
Maybe the word training is different for different people, letting your birds out and going away is NOT training. Dave.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, I have been trying to deal with it. Nothing is more shocking to see than the following: Your birds are trying to land after flying and suddenly a hawk swooped down from nowhere. You open the entrance door, your birds take off and suddenly out of nowhere a hawk just swoops while your birds are taking off. And yet you just checked the whole damn place to make sure there was no hawk hiding. I've seen my birds being in pursuit in the air and the hawk usually change its mine. The most persistent one lands after that and waits for my birds to land. As I said each hawk is different. I don't know whether you are aware that each pigeon is different as well. Some are smarter than others. Some home better. Some flighty. Some brave. I can go on and on.

This is a battle I don't know whether I can win because I can't do anything with the hawk. It is like war where I can only defend by hiding--doing nothing offensive. Or like boxing where I can just duck, but can't punch. Maybe I should have taken falconry which was the hobby I initially wanted before I found pigeons!


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

As i said in a previous post, if possible, shoot of a bottle rocket when you let them out, and one or two when they seem to be ready to come in, The pigeons ignore them after once or twice, but it seems to change the hawks mind. DAVE


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,
I always supervise my pigeons. I stay for 1 hour or more just watching them. Again the settling part is most dangerous as well. I think you don't know what we are dealing with. Your experience is different than mine. I'll trade with your experience. Yes, pigeons are smarter, but hawks are better hunter! Which do you think will win?

I define training as the following: Loft flying for 30 minutes or more. Call them in after that to eat. Toss them during non-winter. I loft fly only 3 times a week. Anything more than that I invite the hawk even more. I also lock down 1 week every attack unless I get hit, the I lock down 2-3 weeks. I follow the many training articles I've read about racing pigeons even though I am not racing. What kind of training would you recommend I should do?


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RODSD, do you let them out at the same time everyday? As i said previously let your young birds get WING STRONG before trying to settle them. A four or five week old squeek, even if hawk smart has no chance.
Well, you folks take the losses i give up. If you can't avoid hawk problems, you obviously have excepted the old myth it is unavoidable. 
I suggest you quit letting your birds out, all you are doing is training local hawks to feed on pigeons, and making it harder for other local flyers to let their birds out. Why not take up rabbit breeding? 
The guys in my local club had the same attitude.... Funny,at one point, they had 4 or 5 times the number of breeders i had and it seems i always had more birds to pick from to fly.chance? i think not.
Gee, if your flying rollers, add a few homers or tipplers(more alert).
NO hawk comes out of no were, they have favorite perches to hunt from(except peregrines) they can be seen up high back peddling. Sorry guys its about training i give up. Dave


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Did you read my post on settling?


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RODSD, Do you have a large flight pen? GOD i hate to give up! LOL!


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Dave,

No rabbit breeding here! I am allergic to them. I release my birds every other day between 4-7 pm. I vary the time, but only on those time period because I feed my birds around that time.

Initially. I settle my birds between 4-5 weeks old. I learned my lesson in those times and now settle them around 6-8 weeks old. I want them to be wing strong and it works! I saved several with that kind of settling.

Your experience with hawks seem to be different. I am quite surprise that even you have Birmingham rollers, you don't get hit much. This is opposite to what other roller fancier experienced here in California. I am a member of a roller forum as well and they get hit as often so they try to lock down during winter.

When I mean hawks come from nowhere I mean nowhere. If I know where it is I will not release my birds.

Also, I am getting the impression after reading your posts is that you don't believe that people have hawk problems. You know the guys in your club are probably having the same experience as I do. Again I wish to reiterate that each fancier experiences different variety or level of hawk problems.


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

Dave you obviously have stupid hawks at your place so I guess you are lucky in that reguard but its a shame you seem to think before walking a mile in the shoes of another ..


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

I looked at your profile, for some one so decimated by hawks, you have a LOT of birds! Dave.


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

yup I do ,but It doesnt mean I dont get hit by hawks everytime I let them out ..I even have hawks in pairs hitting my birds every other day but it still doesnt mean I dont lose a bird a week if I let them out every day which I dont because I am chest deep in birds of prey during the wintermonths so I just keep them in til spring .

my point is I dont encourage people to send their birds to their deaths if there are hawks preying on them daily , in the winter months they dont get tired of hunting your birds and give up when they really dont expend all that much energy sitting in a tree waiting for your birds to land ...they have very little else to do and will wait patently for their meals as long as they must .


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RODSD, Were did i say i do not get hit much? when my birds are out i can count to ten and expect a hawk to hit them. I get hit at LEAST once or twice a day, sometimes when friends are over we start a pool as to how many times they are hit! You do not get it, If they are taught, you can get hit 10 times a day and not lose a bird. 
I have been sitting watching T.V. and my wife will let the dogs out, when she comes in she will say, honey a hawk was after our birds again, and i say "did they get one? she says "oh no but it was COOL"!
Were have i EVER written that the hawks do not hit my BIRDS!!!!
GEEZ... If i did not train my birds against hawks i would be cleaned out in a week or two. Sorry, but rarely have i met a pigeon flyer that has come into my yard and watched them fly and NOT be amazed at how many times my birds are hit, and the hawks lose. AND they say that is so cool!
Read my posts there was a time late last summer i had an adult pair of coopers hitting them, their 4 young, and a early migrating goshawk, ALL in one day. 
Again, train them or lock them up. 
I DON'T GET HIT? Shoot i get hit so often it is RARE some hawk does not hit them between 4:40 and dark from April on.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Lokata, Read my posts, winter flying is out. Too many migrants in too many numbers.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

First off LAKOTA, birds of prey need to feed twice a day, they can hunt once and feed a few times on a bird. I suggest you talk to a falconer on a bird 0f preys food requirement. My reply about number of birds was directed at RODSD 
I should have made that clear. NO hawk or falcon can wait all day for a meal, unless he has a chopping block with left overs on it. Which does not happen unless he has an EASY source of prey.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You said that you only lost 2 birds so I said you do not get hit much. I think we are defining hit differently. Based on what you said, then we both experience the same way. But I get hit more as in hawk killed my birds more.

I've been using all the advice/tips that are presented here. I think the difference between your birds and mine probably is that your birds are of higher quality. I can't think of anything else. I don't know whether you have open land though or have lots of trees. I don't believe it is your training that is making the most difference. I am more in line with the quality of the birds you have.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I only have 17 birds left. I have like a total of 30 or 32( or more ? I don't remember the number now) the last year. I don't have much bird. I say losing 50% to hawk is being decimated. What is your definition of decimated?


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RODSD, I am very wooded, as i have stated i have branches hanging over my loft. It has little to do with genetics. BUT training.
I have birds from many sources, at this time i am not a specialist.
Again it is training. PERIOD. 
To me being hit is any attempt by a hawk to KILL your birds. 
Last year, my list of birds, (i failed to give a proper list in a previous post,) according to my wife.
1 homer hen, and 1 cock
4 Budapests (white)
 6 to 8 tipplers all light colored, except one red.
8 birminghams, red, and white bald heads
4 oriental rollers (NOT good flyers)
4 Crossbred birm X orn rollers. THEY REALLY FLEW!!!
IF you are loosing that many birds, you had better train them to be aware of the hawks.......


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Dave,

Thanks again! Yeah our definition of hit is different. LOL! Of all the birds that got killed I can only remember one adult (yearling). The rest that died are just months old--basically they are not fully hawk aware or scared. Some of those that got killed also occurred during the settling phase. I don't know whether you were able to watch my videos in General discussion when one of my birds got hit. I was settling that birds on my loft. That day I lost 3 birds. 

I hope that you are right that training will make a difference. I will try even harder to train my birds. Some of my birds are not scared of hawks. Those are my fast birds that can outfly the hawk real fast.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I found the thread on the videos.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/hawk-killed-my-pigeon-today-32913.html


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

keep trying, you will find it is a game almost as much fun as flying your birds. 
Yes, you will lose some times but once you learn about the hawks, you will be amazed!


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

hard to tell, first shot looks like female cooper. All i could tell from the first video is i got dizzy! second video shows me hawk did not win, you did not, but it did not. It will learn, Next looks like a female coopers, you should have spooked her before she hit. BUT i would have gone for the video too! LOL! Last video shows you are on the right track... NO hawk will hunt if it can not keep it's prey. Train , TRAIN, train. The hiding birds prove to me, they have not been gotten used to hawks.
ONE tip, NEVER let that cooper be so COMFORTABLE around your loft again, it is clear you have not let them know, (without hurting them ) That they are not welcome!!!


----------



## Kimberly_CA (Jan 5, 2008)

So, pardon my ignorance I still have a lot to learn, how do you train them?


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

If you got dizzy, I got even dizzier. That is why I don't want my birds loft flying more than one hour anymore. I only want them to loft fly for just 30 minutes. I will get less dizzy with that especially I need to be there and watch them do their flying thing. Obviously it may cut the hawks time of opportunity as well.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

KIM, Read my posts....


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,

That hawk video was after it killed my bird. Would you believe that I tried to scare that hawk many times from that perch? It kept on coming back and wanted to go on top of my loft bad. I remember scaring that hawk from that fence 3 times. It fly, then it comes back again. In fact it came back maybe 5 times. In fact it came back an hour later and sat on top of the pine tree where that fence was. I took the video when I realized that the hawk is not going to leave. I remember that vividly because I already stored my camera in my room and ended up running back to get the camera.

Those 2 birds that were hiding are my survivors. That was the first time I saw them do that. Those two have been surviving hawk attacks for 1 year. They live! So you think they are not hawk aware? I think they are very hawk aware. The grizzled bird can route for 2 hours. The white one I haven't seen routing for more than 1 hour. All she does is lay eggs.

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to be assuming everything I do and usually your assumptions are wrong.


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Sorry if i came off that way. But it drives me nuts when people say they can not cut their losses from hawks, if i offended you or any one else, please forgive me. 
I am just passionate about this hawk/pigeon thing. And finding ways to overcome them is almost as much fun as racing was. Dave


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,

All is well! I will use your technique as one arsenals of preventing/reducing hawk damages. I am always in search of it. Now I have a question? Do you fly all those different kind of birds at the same time? I have this crazy idea that maybe the hawk is confused which bird to take because they fly differently.

rod


----------



## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RodSD, You got it. I do not always explain myself well,
Last year my old homer hen was what my wife called the "watch dog",
She could sense a hawks presence before us, and the other birds, she made the other birds aware of the hawk, by her actions, and her vocalizations.
I only had the one homer. I had 2 pair of tipplers, light grizzels, and the young they produced during the season. The tipplers would hang around on the garage,with the homer, (she had a red tippler for a mate), or fly down and bath in the koi pond. If a hawk did not try to hit them within a reasonable time, say 1/2 an hour, i will let out the birminghams and the budapests, as well as any untrained young birds. Just before i let them out i will usually shoot off a bottle rocket, or two, at least when i am letting out untested birds, after the first week or so of the rockets, the hawks are not so afraid of them, but by then the birds have had time to get used to the program. 
It is a rare day when i do not see the hawks, or the hawks do not make a pass at the birds. When the hawks do make a pass at the trained birds, they scatter in all different directions, the birminghams, and young birds seem to follow the tipplers, and the homer up pretty high, then the two groups split.
Any birds that are not in the mood to fly land on the roof and come back in the loft pretty fast. I also had 4 oriental rollers, those and the Budapests, were NOT good fliers, show birds i guess, i did lose one budapest, and two orientals, Last fall i gave away all the budapests, and all the oreintals(i want performers) i did keep 2 birm. oriental crosses THEY really rolled! 
They stay up and roll A LOT without hardly dropping in altitude at all, but they will not stay up very long. Dave


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation. I , too, wants some tipplers and perhaps Birmingham rollers. Those are the 2 flying breeds I've been dreaming to have. I've read though that tipplers can stay for hours on ends. I basically only wants a bird that can loft fly for 2 hours or less else my neck will hurt big time watching them. Rollers I like, too, but I am worried that it may attract the hawks more because of it's rolling. My friend has rollers and lives 1 hour drive from me and his rollers were semi-wiped out last year. He is now breeding them again to get some to fly. His brother and brother's friend has been battling with falcons ever since as well. I think his brother experiences more hawk kills though. So 4 of us that live in different places in San Diego, California have been at the mercy of hawks. We compare notes and strategies to prevent too much damage. I will certainly share them your technique because they have different variety of pigeons that they can fly.


----------

