# M or F? Ash red (t-pattern) -blue/black



## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

We have a recessive yellow hen (bred from T-pattern Ash and almond) mated with an almond coc k on blue/black. They now have a nice ash red T-pattern squab in the nest. Now since the father only carries blue/black (not ash red), I am assuming the ash red color comes from the mother's side. 

That being the case, if this little ash red T-pattern is a male it should show some blue/black flecks, yes? Since it does not, does that mean it is female or do they take some time to show?


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

Ash red hen mated with blue cock give always red cock and blue hen.(sex-linked).


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Will the T-pattern ash red show the blue/black flecks? 

Since the hen is recessive yellow, and the cock almond, I am not totally sure what is hidden. Is there something I am missing? I certainly don't think the cock (father) has blue/black.


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

The cock is almond blue/black:Almond black velvet or almond blue spread?


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Not sure (is there a way to easily differentiate the two?). He white with black flecks throughout (the white bird in my avatar). This baby has an older sibling that is "kite", I think, but appears almost black but shows the tail band (and some bronze in the feather). If this is a sex linked mating, this other should be a hen....which it looks like. 

Once again, though, should this little T-pattern ash red show blue flecks?


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

Hétero ash red cock show black flecks for blue or brown flecks for brown.

Have you a photo of your ash red young?


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't think that a het ash red always has black flecks.


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

came you send pics


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Henk69 said:


> I don't think that a het ash red always has black flecks.


They do, although sometimes you have to really look for them.


Ash-reds without flecks are not always hens. Pure ash-red cocks may not have any flecking. If they do, the flecks will be the same reddish brown color that the pattern is.

A recessive yellow hen with a blue cock is not sex-linked. If the almond cockbird is actually blue and not ash-red carrying blue, then it is sex-linked because that means the hen is ash-red underneath the recessive yellow. It would also mean that any ash-red kids you get will be cocks carrying blue (therefore they have flecking).


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Woodnative said:


> We have a recessive yellow hen (bred from T-pattern Ash and almond) mated with an almond coc k on blue/black. They now have a nice ash red T-pattern squab in the nest. Now since the father only carries blue/black (not ash red), I am assuming the ash red color comes from the mother's side.
> 
> That being the case, if this little ash red T-pattern is a male it should show some blue/black flecks, yes? Since it does not, does that mean it is female or do they take some time to show?


*Can you post a picture of the young bird. Since the hen is a recessive yellow I feel that you have a recessive red youngster,recessive hides blue/black and therefore you will not see any flecking in the young bird. Sure would like to see a photo of this YB * GEORGE


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

George- I took some photos this evening, will post tomorrow. It is not recessive red......tail and flights ashy color. The father does not carry recessive red. I got some good photos. It may have some flecks......maybe I am just not sure what to look for. maryofExeter....although the mother is recessive yellow, I know she was bred from an almond mother and an ash red T-pattern father (according to the breeder).


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

Yellows And Reds Produce From Almonds Are Called Agates . I Do Not Under Stand Blue Black Almomd Almonds Should Have A Black Feather Sppead Thoughout The Body It Is Called The Break


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, almonds should all have flecking or they wouldn't be almonds. But the important thing here is whether it is blue, ash-red, or brown based.


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

Woodnative's squab is necessarily:

-A cock (ash-red hen under the rec yellow mated with blue cock > sex-linked)
-Het ash-red(rec. blue or brown)
-Het dilute(yellow mother)....it's can be the cause of flecks little or not visible.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

OK, photo of our small group. The baby in question is being fed by the mother. The almond father is to the back right (very white bird). Earlier nestmates to the ash red baby are the other two. Thre is the dark kite........since this has the bar I assume it is blue T-pattern, and most likely a hen, yes?. There is also the almond sibling, which shows an ashy tail so I assume that, and the ash red t-pattern baby, are males, yes? The recessive yellow mom/hen is feeding the baby there. 
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v468/Woodnative/?action=view&current=100_0827.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v468/Woodnative/100_0827.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

Hey ink and mio look all grown up now, got their tail feathers in too


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## jabadao (Jun 11, 2011)

It's an indigo.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Woodnative said:


> George- I took some photos this evening, will post tomorrow. It is not recessive red......tail and flights ashy color. The father does not carry recessive red. I got some good photos. It may have some flecks......maybe I am just not sure what to look for. maryofExeter....although the mother is recessive yellow, I know she was bred from an almond mother and an ash red T-pattern father (according to the breeder).


* Hi Chris,The red youngster looks to me to be a Het.Indigo T-pattern and not ash red T-pattern. *GEORGE


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

That is odd. What makes it look like an indigo? It is odd because although I know that indigo was put into frillbacks, it was by a different breeder and fairly recently. Thank you for your input.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

Its an indigo!?!?!?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Woodnative said:


> That is odd. What makes it look like an indigo? It is odd because although I know that indigo was put into frillbacks, it was by a different breeder and fairly recently. Thank you for your input.


*Chris, I raise American Show Racers and I have 6 or 7 Indigo's that are colored just like that young bird, Indigo covers blue, that is why the tail and flight feathers have a bluish look. If that young bird was ash red the flights and tail would be very much lighter in color. *GEORGE


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you! That is interesting. I guess we will else comes out!


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

almond cock to non almond hen produces 50/50 cocks and hens no sex linked mateing


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Looks like indigo to me too, but have never heard of indigo in frill-backs.

Since it is dominant, wouldn't we expect to see effects on the mother / father as-well? What would a recessive yellow indigo look like anyway?


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

For me, you have three offsprings:
- a kite hen (t-pattern het rec rec with darkeners),
- an almond het rec red hen;
- an ash red t-pattern het rec red cock with a lot of darkeners.


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Looks like indigo to me too, but have never heard of indigo in frill-backs.
> 
> Since it is dominant, wouldn't we expect to see effects on the mother / father as-well? What would a recessive yellow indigo look like anyway?


Thats the thing, indigo has only recently hav been introduced into frillbacks, by the gratz family by using a homer, the breeder of those parents never has mention anything about indigo being in their genetic, i dont think he ever had an indigo, that pair r the only pair in the loft, not like the squeaker has different parents. And no, it doesnt look like the parents hav indigo in them either


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

The youngster in question is almond. The father is almond so wouldn't you expect an almond youngster from him? It has inherited the chequer gene, recessive red and probably dirty, from it's mother and consequently is a "better-coloured" almond than it's father. It's even got a black fleck in it's neck.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm not sure if the red bird is an ash-red velvet with darkening modifiers and split for RR....OR if it is indeed indigo. Indigo is common under recessive red/yellow to help improve the color. You would not be able to tell if the recessive yellow parent has indigo in it or not, as there are other modifiers that help make the color more bold.
I have seen some "mealies" that looked very indigo-ish. But again, they could have been dirty, slate, sooty, or all of the above.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

indigobob said:


> The youngster in question is almond. The father is almond so wouldn't you expect an almond youngster from him? It has inherited the chequer gene, recessive red and probably dirty, from it's mother and consequently is a "better-coloured" almond than it's father. It's even got a black fleck in it's neck.


Are you talking about the ash-yellow bird?


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## FrillbackLover (Mar 18, 2011)

indigobob said:


> The youngster in question is almond. The father is almond so wouldn't you expect an almond youngster from him? It has inherited the chequer gene, recessive red and probably dirty, from it's mother and consequently is a "better-coloured" almond than it's father. It's even got a black fleck in it's neck.


Yea...no we're not talking About that one......


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

MaryofExeter, I think what you stated makes more sense.....dirty factors along with the split for rec red. George Simon and Jabadao (and others) here is a closer pic of the bird in question. What do you think? I trust your opinion, but don't think indigo is too common in frillbacks which is the only reason I am doubting the Indigo. 
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v468/Woodnative/?action=view&current=100_0837.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v468/Woodnative/100_0837.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobuck







et"></a>


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

Looking At The Pic And Seeing Frillback Young And Old Isay It Looks Like A Red Grizzle . Remeber That Young Change With The Moult So I Never Worry Until They Get Older . Almonds Get Darker With Age Grizzles Lighten Up So Do Not Go By The Young Color In The Nest .


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Woodnative said:


> We have a recessive yellow hen (bred from T-pattern Ash and almond) mated with an almond coc k on blue/black. They now have a nice ash red T-pattern squab in the nest. Now since the father only carries blue/black (not ash red), I am assuming the ash red color comes from the mother's side.
> 
> That being the case, if this little ash red T-pattern is a male it should show some blue/black flecks, yes? Since it does not, does that mean it is female or do they take some time to show?


Hey Woodnative, Was the T pattern ash that bred the reccesive yellow a cock? 

Also the ash red young in question Is that a cockbird? Im guessing you can now tell?

I think it looks a lot like an ash red to me - If it is a cock then it is not possible for it to be a blue with indigo as suggested earlier in the thread.

Nice frillbacks by the way, A guy I know Luke breeds frillbacks here in NZ and would love those.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks!! Yes, he is an adult cockbird now and even has the "flecking" of an ash red carrying blue.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Didn't think it was indigo. Thanks.


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