# one leg not working



## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi All,

I went from no posts to this being my second in one day!

I have just home from work to find my 3 week old Wood pigeon unable to stand on his left leg. The right leg seems to function as it did before, so he flops to one side. He is a little panicky with his balance, but is otherwise eating fine. He could walk around fine before that, if a little bit of a fatman wobble.

I have search through the threads and can't seem to find anything that addresses this problem. I'm a little worried 

Addit: I have just given him some ibuprofen and will see how he gets on. In the absence of other symptoms, I am assuming for now that his leg is hurting him for some reason- maybe over did it on his birdie aerobics. If it was a systemic infection, or a dietary problem, I would have thought it would have affected both legs? (would be great if there was a vet on here...)


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## jeweel (Jul 4, 2011)

zoolisa, how is his poop? did you examine his leg? 

Systemic infection does not affect two legs simultaneously, more often it does with one by one.

I hope its nothing but a simple pain. You should closely observe him.


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello, Thank you for replying

His poop is same as usual- brownish green, soft not runny, White watery stuff with it. No odour. I had a look at his leg, he can move it, can weakly grip my finger. I can straighten it fully, and his bones and joints match the other. When I hold him up around his middle, the good leg hangs down and the toes flex trying to grip something, but the bad leg stays tucked up. 

Still eating like a little pig! His eyes are clear, mouth and throat pink and healthy. When he lies down his wing on the affected side sticks out a bit, like he is using it for balance.

Hope the wee man is ok :-(


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## jeweel (Jul 4, 2011)

Is his parents feeding him? You could provide some calcium supplement for them.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

jeweel said:


> Is his parents feeding him? You could provide some calcium supplement for them.


Since this is a rescued woodpigeon then his parents are not around to feed.

Chances are hes maybe caught his leg on something in his cage or box, or even got his toe tangled in a towel & possibly overbalanced because of it.
Can you examine both legs closely, see if you can feel any swelling or differences between the two ?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

As Quazar suggested it does sound as if he might have got it caught and strained it. If so with rest it should recover the use.

Comparing both legs will help you spot if there is a major swelling or new injury.
You can often hear if there is a break as it can make a crunchy sound if bones are moving against each other by checking it over very gently.

A calcium supplement isn't such a bad idea if you can get some wiith Vit D in. You just add it to his feed as opposed to parents being given it to pass on.

Do keep us posted as to how it is tomorrow after a nights rest.

Janet


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Young birds in particular tend not to be so sure on their feet as adults and I have noticed that they often get their toenails caught in any toweling used to make a comfy nest for them, especially if it is any kind of towel made with looped threads. 
When this happens, they can tumble over then struggle to get their leg free which could strain it.
Adults tend to keep their balance better and its not so much of a problem.
Although towelling is nice & soft for them, I nomally cover the towel with some paper towelling which also makes it easier to simply change when soiled.


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello, thank you for your posts!

He is the same this morning, no worse. I can't see any swelling or feel any breaks in his leg, I was able to palpate along from his hips down to his toes and has a range of movement comparable to the other leg. He still tucks it up out of the way when I hold him up. I think you are right, that he has strained it somehow, he has certainly been getting more mobile around his enclosure the past few days before this, so perhaps got a little adventurous.

He's had his ibuprofen dose this morning, and I've left instructions to his other carers (other half and my mum) to let him rest today as much as possible, and to keep him warm.

He has been getting ground egg shell in his feed since day 1, I read on another forum that this was a good way to deliver calcium, but do you think I should get some calcium supplement from an animal supplier to ensure a measured dose?

Thank you again for your advice and reassurance!

Lisa


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

I'm glad he's no worse and hopefully some rest will start to show some results.

I've got a youngster ATM that for no reason completely lost the use of both legs and the ability to digest food. It's taking time but he's now got his legs back and we're still working on the feeding but it shows, things happen quite suddenly and it's not always obvious why.

Keep us posted.

By the way, I'm going to my pigeon supplier today for some seeds and calcium supplement. If you'd like to send me your address in a PM, I'll gladly send you a bit in the post.

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

thank you thank you!

I have PM'd you 

thanks again to all of you for the advice, its like having someone hold my hand for me while I learn on the job!!


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

Just got back and will post some off today.

If you're not feeding him anymore then just put a couple of drops in about 0.5mls water and drip it into his beak once a day.
No need to worry about over dosing as the vet said they just expel any extra they don't need.

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Janet,

The calcium arrived yesterday, thank you so much! I couldn't get to the computer until now. He seems about the same, both legs weak now, takes a bit of encouragement to eat. Poops are the same. I will persevere with the added calcium, and keep giving him little and often. Anything else you think I should do?

Lisa


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

sorry I wasn't able to get on until now.

Worrying the other leg is going weaker. Is he still able to stand or walk at all?

Was he eating well on his own up to now? You may need to supplement his feeds by hand for a while if he stops eating.

Do you know how much he weighs. It might be an ideato do that so we can tell if he's losing any weight over the next couple of days.
Do hope he picks up but keep us posted so we can try and help find out what's going wrong,

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Janet,

I'llprovide a more detailed update, but first I'll just run through from the beginning, so hopefully you more experienced carers can pinpoint where something may have been missed...

Dino came into our care 24th August, and we estimated his age to be roughly 8-10 days old. We had chopped down a branch of the adjacent tree not realising the nest was there, and the wind blew it out. His sibling unfortunately died upon impact with the ground. We persevered all day with reuniting him with the parents, but became concerned that we was looking weaker, so took over the care. We put him back in the vicinity serval times for the next couple of days, but it very much looked as though the parents had gone.

We have been feeding him on a cocktail: 

Bill Oddies mealworm museli- has oats, seeds, sunflower seeds, mealworms, raisins, wheat, and other things. Added to this some trill which has millet, oats, canary seed, with added vitamins, iodine and calcium, we chucked in a handful of peas and corn, some chopped apple, crushed egg shell (until Janet sent me some calcium supplement) I would add some warm water to this, then a quick wizz in the blender to make a coarse porridge, and feed this warm 3x a day. He would take an average of 20ml to begin with, sometimes less, and we worked up to 40ml as of last weekend. I would encourage him to gape by curling my thumb and forefinger around the base of his beak and used a small soft rubber spoon to blob in mouthfuls which he would gulp down with ease.

I then cut out the lunchtime 'porridge' and gave him whole peas and corn instead- gave as many as it took to fill crop to 2 thirds full, and left tray of seeds, peas and corn, and a bowl of water in reach at all times. I have encourage him to peck and feed himself, and had some occassional successes, but no where near enough to stop the hand feeding yet. I have been very careful to take him outside in the sunshine and fresh air a couple of times a day for a couple of hours. He has an enclosure in the greenhouse, so gets plenty of light. We have doors and windows open through the day, so its nice and cool, and there is a fan heater that is set to come on if the temp drops to below about 18C at night. 

At one point (?about 12 days ago) I noticed a small white plaque on the roof of his mouth and thought canker straight away. I ordered some spartrix, but in the 2 days it took for the company to tell me they had ran out, the white plaque had disappeared completely on its own. So I cancelled the order, as it was looking at a few weeks to get some.

On 7th Sept I came home from work, and he couldn't seem to use his left leg, he didn't seem to stand up, but at this stage the right leg appeared to have normal strength in his right leg. He was still a hungry pigeon, and continued to squeak and bounce wings when I came near, even with a full crop. This remained unchanged until friday (9th) when his other leg seemed weaker too, and at this point needed more encouragement to feed and would only take about half of what he used to.

That brings us to today- still reluctant to feed, sometimes have to be very persuasive and force him a little. He weighs 320g today, I hadn't weighed him before now unfortunately- went and bought some scales yesterday. Thats something I will definately do differently next time. He's never felt plump, but was certainly 'heavier' before now, so undoubtedly has lost some weight, but I can't say how much unfortunately. His legs are weak, but do move and can grip. Its like he can't stand up. He uses his wings like a pair of crutches to propel him self along. He did 'fly' from my hands to a chair, I dont know who was more surprised, him or me! He remains very alert, looking around at everything going on, and apart from the legs and lack of appetite, you wouldn't know there was anything wrong. 

I have ordered some Columbovet 4 in 1 as this seems to cover a range of ailments- I am suspecting possibly salmonella? Although his poop has no yellowness in it- just greenish brown, with pure white and clear areas. It is a little runnier in my opinion, seems to 'wet' the paper more, and harder to clean up. He poops to order to! I lift him out onto the paper, he poops, I put him back in his 'nest'. Toilet trained pigeon. great stuff.

My next plan was keep feeding little and often, and start with a course of the columbovet when it arrives. I phoned the vet when we first took him in, and they were- well the politest thing I can say is 'disinterested'. Having had experience with vets and wild animals before, I admit I am reluctant to involve them if I can help it.

I would welcome any input and advice, I unfortunately have a woeful lack of pharmacuticals at home, so I would need to acquire any medications some how, so that would have to be tomorrow when the shops open!

Thanks all

Lisa


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi All,

Here is a photo taken yesterday...


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

HI Lisa,

you must have read my mind as I was going to get you to outline his care to date. This is brilliant.

I'm going to ask Karyn, (Dobato), when she comes on to have a look as she or some other very experienced members on here might be able to give their advice on possible causes and meds to help.

I'll be on standby in case there are any meds we may need to source as unforunately we don't have the same access to them without prescriptions here in the UK as you know. 

I'd keep his strength up by keeping him rested and warm for now. Don't force feed too much as his system might be a bit slower if he's sick and he could end up with a slow crop. You could put some glucose and salt in his water if he's self drinking to keep him hydrated. If he's not then just dip his beak in the water up to his nostrils and he may sip it in.

Keep an eye open for posts and we'll hopefully sort him out. 

Janet


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a little note, Pigeons are grain & seed eaters so take out the mealworms


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you please post up the dosing you are giving/gave for the Ibuprofen and also a photo of any fresh droppings. How is his breathing and when do you think the Columbovet will arrive?

Karyn


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello, I used the nurofen for infants, 100mg in 5 ml, and I gave 0.25ml, so 5mg. I only gave 3 doses over 24 hours in total, but saw little effect and stopped it. 

His breathing looks ok I think, not laboured. No added noises. The columbovet was ordered yesterday, and they said would take 3-5 day to get here.

Lisa


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

P.s. I will work on the photo


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

I've just in from asda, and found the little chap had climbed out of bed and obligingly left me with a poop to photograph. It is getting a bit dry on top, but can only be an hour old max:


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you put him out in the greenhouse, does he ever get direct rays from the sun, or does he get rays that are passing through the glass of the greenhouse? Because the UV rays you want for him to be able to use the calcium, don't pass through the glass. He needs direct rays from the sun. Also, 4 in 1's don't work very well. There isn't really enough of each med to cure anything.


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Jay,

He gets around 4 hours a day outside on the garden table getting what sun is available. When in the greenhouse, all the doors and roof windows are wide open except when it rains, so I don't think lack of sunlight us the issue. The four in one has had mixed reviews, so in the absence of a definitive diagnosis I wanted to cover all bases. 

Just of note, he has retained his strength, when I was trying to open his beak to feed him, he fights very strongly! I have followed janets advice and not pressed the issue, and just fed him 10-15 ml every 4 hours. His crop does seem to empty fully in between meals.

Cheers For all advice, I'm very grateful 

Lisa


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Zoolisa, the dosing you were giving for the Ibuprofen was a little high, the recommend dosing is 5-10mg q8-12h, so this means for a 320g it should get 1.6-3.2mg every 8-12h. I want to checked to check in case you may have overdosed him, which does not appear to be the case.

We ran into something like this a little while ago, actually with one of Janet's birds, except he loss use of both legs. We tried antibiotic therapy and the bird did respond to this, with one adjustment, so there is the possibility your little guy could have septic arthritis, a bacterial infection in the joint(s) of the leg causing what we are seeing. Since it's been 5 or 6 days without improvement it may be worthwhile to try him on a course of Synulox, if Janet has some she can spare and see his response.

A few weeks ago I had a look at the Columbovet, as another UK member was going to order it and start one of their birds on it, and as combo meds go, I think it looks to be a good one. It's Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Dimetridazole, a good combination that will cover a good range of possible issues.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Thanks Karyn for checking into this.
I have five Noroclav 50mg tablets. (Synulox) would this be a long enough treatment?
I've also got Flagyl and Nystatin that I can spare if needed.

Lisa, as Karyn mentioned I have a youngster I've been treating that lost the use of his legs and his digestive system almost came to a complete stop, that's why I was concerned about over feeding just in case it was all connected.

I'll send you these Synulox I have and hopefully with the other meds you've ordered, it will show some results.

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Karyn,

many thanks for this input- it all kind of makes sense. Possibly the white plaque I saw was a sign of an infection such as salmonella, which has led to SA. Shall I resume the ibuprofen (at a dose of 0.15 ml maybe?) as this would help to reduce the inflammation? 

I will go ahead and start a course of the columbovet when it arrives too. I maybe back for dosing advice too if the instructions aren't too clear! Tomorrow, I will phone a vet and see if they would be happy to supply me with some synulox. 

Like Janets bird, he has lost use of both legs, one is weaker than the other. He can move them, and grip weakly, but they can't support his weight. (I don't want to speak too soon, but they seemed a little stronger this afternoon, and he was a little squeakier)

he is managing to eat about 10-15ml food every 4 hours or so, so about 4 feeds a day, so getting 40-60ml per day. Not massive, but should prevent him from wasting away.

Did his poop look normal? I know people are always asking about poop on this forum, and wondered what a normal one looked like!

Many thanks again for all your advice and support

Lisa


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

thanks Janet- I think we were typing at the same time! 

I owe you so much! I'm not sure what I can do to repay you, but I'll think of something 

Lisa


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Quazar said:


> Just a little note, Pigeons are grain & seed eaters so take out the mealworms


ew! That will involve touching them!

I have picked through the mix, they came already added- just used what we already had- but now the robins are enjoying them!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Clostridium can also cause the loss of use in the legs. Antibiotic would be required.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Clostridium can also cause the loss of use in the legs. Antibiotic would be required.



Just reading through this thread, that's what I was thinking too. I receive several pigeons/ducks each year this time or in the spring, that have Clostrium botulitum. Baytril, in all cases, has made a difference after 4-5 days treatment.
The four in one you ordered won't help at all.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Just catching up with the input.

I have a bit of Baytril left from one of the last birds my vet treated, could be enough for five days if it's felt that treating with two options is ok.

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hmmm. Still none the wiser then. His legs aren't paralysed, and the rest if his body parts seem to have normal strength. He is alert and inquisitive, not depressed or lethargic. He has just eaten the best he has for a couple of days- 40ml. He is squeaking again, and gets around quite well considering he can't stand fully.

I will ask the vet for baytril, as it probably won't hurt and appears fairly broad spectrum. Baytril seems the drug of choice for pretty much every animal! But I will follow Janet and karyns advice, as the symptoms seem to match closely with janets bird. 

I have been cleaning everything twice a day with a weak solution of bleach, so hopefully any environmental factors can be eliminated. He doesn't mix with any other animals, and we are very careful to wash our hands before and after handling.


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Oops, just typed at same time again!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Zoolisa, you can start the Ibuprofen again, but I would feel better if you went with the lower end of the dosing range and gave this little guy 0.10cc (2mg, basically 2 drops) twice a day. Janet, I think that if you have 5 Noroclav pills, and you can spare them, then it would be good to send them, as this will be enough for 5 days of treatment (25mg q12h) and send some Flagyl as well, enough for 7 days of treatment and a bit Nystatin, for the crop later, just in case.

Zoolisa, perhaps you can also look into picking up some Synulox/Noroclav to continue the treatment with, as if he responds 5 days will not be long enough, and we should know in a few days if AB therapy is having a positive impact. The dropping does not look that bad, good amount of solid content, not too wet and the urate color is OK.

Zoolisa, I think you should go with the Synulox over the Baytril.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Ok will send what I can to get him started and we can see if he responds. The vet might insist as they do to see the bird before they prescribe anything but worth asking if they will let you have some Synulox, They might use Noroclav which is the same, just a generic option.
Sadly my vet doesn't like it if I say I've got advice from another source and tends to go the opposite direction, maybe yours is more open. It might be worth saying you've taken over caring for this bird from someone else and this had been prescribed but you've run out!! Always worth a try.

Glad he's eating well. I'd still go for 30ml max at each feed for the moment.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

just to let you know the meds are on the way.
any change today?

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Janet,

Thank you so much, I didn't have any luck with the two vets near me, you were quite right that they would want a prescription, even though I gave a tiny white fib that I'd lost the medication. I think I'll have to give into my reluctance and take him to see them, and hope they go along with our plan 

He seems a bit better today, appetite much improved, legs still weak but moving them much more, and seems more balanced. He reminds me of those 'furbies' that kids had a few years back!

We have him in the house tonight as it was too windy to have greenhouse open, and too warm with it shut! Thanks hurricane katia!! 

I will weigh him again tomorrow, see how things look. My gut feeling about him is not so worried, he's just so strong and lively, just from the waist up!

Speak tomorrow,

Lisa


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

hello there,

The drugs arrived! Thank you!

He has had a noroclav- 25mg, and will give another last thing tonight. What dose should I give of the metronidazole? I have seen 25-50mg for adults, so would 15mg sound about right?

Thank you again!

Lisa

P.S. eating and flapping like a maddy this morning


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

Glad he's still perky and eating. He's not feeling bad by the sounds of it.

I am the worst person in the world with figures and always end up checking out doses regardless of how many times I've given them in the past. 
Anyway, in my reckoning and reading back over my bird Dusty's thread, Yes I would agree on 15mg.

I wasn't sure how much was actually in the bottle so let me know if it's not enough.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I agree, 15mg should be fine. It may take a few days to try and get an inkling id he is starting to respond to the meds. Glad he is so perky, as this will help a lot going forward.

Good luck and keep us updated,

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lisa, I have re-read your thread again and I see Janet sent you out some calcium on Sept 10th or so, I know you gave some, but could you go over how much you gave, whether you continued to give it, and are still giving it and if you know the strength of the calcium (is vitamin D3 included), if not I am sure Janet will help with this information.

Janet, it was really quite thoughtful and kind of you to of helped Lisa out with both supplements and meds .

Karyn


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi karyn, 

I put 2 drops in his daily amount of food, but when he didn't eat too well, I diluted it in half ml of water and gave it directly. I'm not sure of the strength or dose- Janet will have this info! 

It was really lovely of Janet, I'd have definitely have struggled without her help. And your advice has been incredible, members like you two, and the other matriarchs who have inputted their guidance, make this forum invaluable


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Oops, yes, I'm still giving the calcium. 2 drops a day.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Lisa, I have re-read your thread again and I see Janet sent you out some calcium on Sept 10th or so, I know you gave some, but could you go over how much you gave, whether you continued to give it, and are still giving it and if you know the strength of the calcium (is vitamin D3 included), if not I am sure Janet will help with this information.


Info on the Calcium is: Per litre. Vit D 200,000 iu, Calcium 10,000mg. Hope this helps.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Info on the Calcium is: Per litre. Vit D 200,000 iu, Calcium 10,000mg. Hope this helps.
> 
> Janet


Janet thanks for the info. Lisa, I brought up the calcium because when dealing with these kinds of issues, especially in a young bird, I think it prudent that the bird be supplemented with therapeutic dosing of calcium and D3, at least for a few days. I am going to get Janet to double check those number, but if they are correct, then we may want to consider picking up some Caltrate + D3, and using that. Based on these numbers it means that each 1mL of the calcium supplement has 10mg of calcium and 200IU of vitamin D3. If you are giving 2 drops a day this means you are giving 1mg of calcium and 20IU of vitamin D3. 

Typically, when I suggest supplementing calcium for a therapeutic effect, using Caltrate 600 + D3, I will suggest 1/6th of a pill, once a day, for 3-6 days, for a bird about this weight. A Caltrate tablet contains 600mg of calcium and 400IU of vitamin D3, so 1/6th of a pill represents 100mg of calcium and about 67IU of vitamin D3.

So you can see we are pretty far off the mark to have a therapeutic effect. Again, if the numbers are right, we would not know whether low calcium is an issue, as the amounts would not be high enough to let us know.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Double checked what's on the bottle and those are the correct figures Karyn.

It's a liquid supplement I get from a pigeon suppliers locally. It's directions state for young birds 5ml in 2litres of water once a week.
10mls for breeders twice a week.
Actually my vet said to give it daily so he must have thought it was low.

That's all the info on the bottle. Hope it helps clarify.

Janet


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## zoolisa (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello 

An update on the wee man...

His appetite is back to normal, has gained 30grams, and is now feeding himself peas like they are going out of fashion. It would appear that he hates sweetcorn, as he picks out all the peas! I still give him his 'mash' at night, but feeds himself great during the day. 

Legs are getting stronger, not quite standing tall, but can now shuffle without using his wings, improvements seen every day.

Noroclav finish day before yesterday, continues on metronidazole. Columbovet 5 in 1 arrived- instructions very vague- '5g per litre water' so I email them- what is the dose for a single juvenile who does not feed self too well? the reply I get is 'same dose, 5 g per litre of water or kg of feed' So I reply 'Juvenile will not eat kg feed or drink litre of water in one day. What is the DAILY dose PER pigeon?' And they just repeated the same instructions- very frustrating! If anyone can throw any light on this it would be good!

Thats all for now, but I am very pleased with how he is doing 

Lisa


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Lisa, glad to hear he is making positive progress, can now stand, and his appetite has picked up . How is he doing at eating seeds?..., it is sometimes hard to to try and do individual dosing with meds that are supposed to be administered through a bird(s) drinking water, as the company may not put much information on concentrations, at times even ingredients, on the packaging. That he is not eating well on his own yet, does not mean that he is not drinking well enough to get the meds through his drinking water. When you add a med like this to the drinking water, there is a calculation made that a bird will drink 7-10% of it body weight over the course of a day, giving him a therapeutic dose, but care has to be taken in either very hot weather, or cold, to perhaps adjust the amount of medicine added to the water, as they drink more in hot weather and less in cold, with the risk of causing over-dosing or under-dosing.

If you do have a go at medicating his water, following the manufacturer's instructions carefully, I also would suggest you stop the Metronidazole, as the Columbovet has Dimetridazole included, a medicine that is similar to Metronidazole in some respects, and we do not want to over medicated him. Did you do the supplementing with a greater amount of calcium?

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Lisa,
I was hoping to see an update with some good news.

I'm so pleased he is showing some improvement now, and great that he's eating so well too.

Janet


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