# Prolaps



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Has anybody ever seen a prolaps in a pigeon?
Whitney had a hysterectomy a year and a half ago.
Today I noticed that her feathers around her vent looked "funny". I took a look and her feathers are caked with some slimey white stuff, not droppings, rather urates and from her vent is protruding a red mass about 1cm in diamenter. It looks like something prolapsed, don't know what, intestines? Have no idea.
And I have no idea what I am going to do about it.
Will email my vet, but would appreciate any input.

Reti

Forgot to mention, she doesn't act sick in any way and her droppings are normal.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cloacal prolapse. It's in the Big Book. There are things that you can do about it and they're mostly... surgical, if I remember correctly. If you want, I'll try to find chapter and verse.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pages 404 to 405. Fairly often, a prolapsed cloaca is associated with papillomatosis. Prolapsed mucosa should be protected from damage and desiccation so flush it with saline and cover with a sterile lubricating jelly or ointment for now. More later.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Dimethylsulfoxide (available as a liquid or a gel for topical use) may be helpful in reducing the swelling of the prolapsed tissues prior to surgical correction.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To check for papillomatosis, go to page 494 and look at the picture of 19.9a and 19.9b. That's showing the application of... <drum roll> ...ACV to check for papillomas as they will turn white from the stuff. In the Big Book, that is the one and only mention of the medicinal use of ACV, by the way. You need to try it on this bird.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the Big Book, there are other types of prolapse like uterine (which shouldn't apply here as the bird's had some amount of the oviduct removed) and also some intestinal types. In those, it can be an intussusception or a loop of intestine pushing through and out. These things don't generally appear to do this stuff for no reason, though, so you might ought to go looking for some hard masses in the abdomen by palpating all around that area between the two bones on either side of the vent. That's in addition to checking that protruding mass with the ACV, by the way.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

won't the acv burn her?
BTW, acetic acid (vinegar) is also used to diagnose papliomatosis on the cervix in woman. It is not a 100% diagnosis as any abormal tissue might turn white, if I remember correctly.

Will do that tomorrow, cause have to go to a health fair now for school and won't be back till late tonight.

I am not happy she has to have surgery.
What can I get from the pharmacy to apply localy now?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Saline (which you can make) and SurgiLube?

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We may also be dealing with an infection that's causing pressure, you know. That's why you need to palpate the area and see if there's something else there. However, if you want to shoot blind, you might try Metronidazole for it's ability to moderate the immune response in the lower intestines and abdominal area.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As I recall, fp's bird Ballsy had a protruding vent although I don't remember language specifically about it having any protruding pink or red flesh. She kept that bird on Metronidazole for an extended period and it finally resolved.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Another section of the Big Book dealing with this is page 510 through (somewhat) to page 512 which discusses treatment of papillomatosis. Most of those are benign, by the way.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

While you're at it, read the section on papillomavirus beginning on page 886.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Surgical procedures (if required) are detailed in Chapter 41 and include the Ventral Midline Celiotomy (page 1121) and the Cloacopexy (page 1125). Illustrations for those appear on pages 1126-7.

That's about all we need to consider so far until you figure out whether it's a papilloma/papillomatosis at this stage. Let us know as soon as you can about any further observations or developments.

<pant! pant!>

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you so much, Pidgey.
I will do the vinegar thing tomorrow afternoon when I get back from school. I just got home now and don't want to wake her. Will also apply something to keep the area moist.
Didn't get to the big book yet, will do on Friday after my exam.
my vet didn't email back either.
I know she will need surgery and hope he will be willing to do it.
How do I make saline solution?

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Saline? Well, go to the Internet:

http://www.copperleife.com/craig/health/saline.htm

One slightly heaping teaspoon per liter of water.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear about Whitney. I know her history and I can't imagine her having this problem now. 

My brother-in-law has problems with some of the female sheep that have babies, they have prolapsed uteruses, and he learned how to put everything back an stitch them up, the doctors from the university in Boise showed him how to do this. This problem happens to those sheep who have their tails cut too short when they are babies. I know this has to be corrected surgically.

Just wanted to let you know, I am sending positive thoughts and prayers for her.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Reti,

I am scanning in the sections from the Flying Vet's Pigeon Health and Management, it includes photos. I will e-mail them to you. I hope that this helps.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It sounds to me more like papillomatosis than an actual prolapse at this point. That's why we need to get some ACV on it. If it were an intestinal prolapse, the bird should be in a lot more distress (those can become fatal pretty quickly).

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you, Treesa, Cynthia and Pidgey.
Your input helps so much. 

Treesa, I don't know why she had this happen, she is not laying eggs anymore, but she did have trouble with egg laying, and the surgery, so I guess it has to do something with it.

Looking at the pics Cynthis send me, it is exactly that. Cloacal prolaps. Even the feathers around the vent look exactly the same covered with tons of sticky stuff, I plucked most of them and applied vinegar, had no reaction other than from Whitney struggling, must have been uncomfortable.

I applied saline and I am still waiting for my vet to write back. 
I give him another day and if I get no response I will have to take her somewhere else.

I certainly didn't need that now with my finals coming up, but what can we do, I have to take her for surgery there is no way around it.

Thanks so much.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I guess I was just being plain hopeful seeing as how the treatment for papillomas is easier than a true prolapse. Well, crap! Anyhow, maybe you can get some DMSO (Dimethyl Sufloxide) and reduce the swelling first. You might also try pushing it back in to see if it will hold because it might stay by sheer accident you know (they do it with cows). But be careful with fingernails. You might try using a surgical glove (sounds a lot better that way, anyhow, huh?).

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I know. I was hoping too it was something easy treatable, darn. I hate to put her through another surgery.
I tried to push the tissue back and it seems touch to do, I didn't push much, don't want to cause further damage.
Form what I saw in woman, it can be pushed back (the uterus) but it doesn't last long, it is only a temporary fix and the tissue prolapses again. So, will have to take her in asap.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the cows that we did, you only laced them up (they installed hog rings and it looked like lacing up your sneakers) when the uterus popped out a second time. In birds, they don't have the bulk of the bones surrounding that area that a lot of animals do. As such, I was hoping that it would be an easier push in. Of course, you have to get past the muscle ring around the vent. That might easier with a retractor. I have one that you could borrow if you were a neighbor...



Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Pidgey.
I wish we were neighbors...

My vet wrote back, he's going to do it tomorrow.
Keep your fingers crossed.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> Thanks, Pidgey.
> I wish we were neighbors...
> 
> My vet wrote back, he's going to do it tomorrow.
> ...



I definitely am saying a prayer and sending positive thoughts your way, Reti.

Don't I wish we were all neighbors...


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> I definitely am saying a prayer and sending positive thoughts your way, Reti.
> 
> Don't I wish we were all neighbors...



Thank you, Treesa.

That would be so great if we all lived close.
I would consider to come live close to you though, would actually like it to get away from Miami, but where Pidgey lives, no way, way too cold.  

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*update*

Well, Whitney had the surgery which went well.
She had lots of loose tissue, so the vet tightened it up and now we hope for the best, that it will heal nicely and she can poop. I have to watch for this.
He couldn't figure the reason why she had this and why her tissues are loose and there is a chance it will come back and she will than have to have surgery again.
For now, she will get a few days of rest and antibiotic (and lots of TLC)

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did they do the surgery like the book illustrated or do they have another technique, now?

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Did they do the surgery like the book illustrated or do they have another technique, now?
> 
> Pidgey


I wasn't there, so have no clue. From what he was telling me, all he did was tightening up the muslces around the anus.

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Unfortunately the prolaps reccured before even Lee picked her up form the clinic.
So, she will have to have another alternate procedure, probably on Monday. Darn. Poor Whitney.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear about this. I just got done reading the first post-surgery post and was about to respond.....

I'm sure you will do everything to keep her as comfortable as possible until Monday, I'm keeping her in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maybe you need to print out those pages on the actual surgical procedure as detailed in Chapter 41 and hold the vet at rubber-band-gunpoint until he reads them.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks, Treesa.
Pidgey, I will do exactly that tonight and take it with me tomorrow to work. I think even I saw the book lately in the office, will look again for it tomorrow.
But I will take some print outs with me, just in case.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Ohhhhh, my...

Best wishes for Whitney! and you...!

I sure hope the next round with the Vet gets things tidied-up nicely and with smooth Sailing from then on.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Phil

Reti


----------



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Reti, I hope the vet is able to correct the problem and have Whitney feeling better fast!


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Whitney had her second surgery today. She is at the clinic and will stay there overnight cause they did the surgery only very late.
They did a cloacopexy this time so hopefully that will hold the tissues.
The vet took also a look inside her and didn't find anything abnormal, his guess is she might have high estrogen levels and that is causing all her problems.

Poor Andrew was looking for his darling tonight and now he finally went to sleep. I promised him tomorrow she will be home again.

Reti


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

Poor Whitney, she's been through a lot and I hope that this will be the last time she needs to have surgery. I'm sure Andrew misses his mate but tomorrow they will be reunited.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sending WARM HEALING THOUGHTS from Mr. Squeaks and me too! 

Sure hope all goes well !!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Reti,

What a really, really rough time Whitney has had. I, too, hope that this will be the last time she has to see the vet for anything even remotely serious. Bless you for going the whole nine yards with all these birds. I know it is very difficult at times .. not only for the birds, but for the humans that love them.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Oye...

I sure hope this does the trick there, and she ( and you ) can get back to whatever you left off on...

Best wishes you two..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Hi Reti,
I just came on to check about Whitney. Poor little pigeon has been through a lot. Hopefully, this surgery will resolve the problem. 
Whitney is in my prayers. Please let us know as soon as she is home. 

Phyll


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

Well, everyone has said about everything I could say.

I'm sending my best wishes and prayers for a SPEEDY and FULL recovery for Whitney. 

Please do update us when you can.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I picked her up an took her home. She is fine, but I don't like how her vent looks. It is protruding a lot. Hope the sutures will hold.
I have to put preparation H on, twice a day and hopefully she will look more "normal" soon.
Andrew did an impressive dance for her and then started kissing her, so sweet.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I never thought I'd live to see the day that a pigeon would need Preparation-H!!!

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thanks for the update Reti, hope she is fine now, and that her tissue stays inside where it is supposed to be .


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I never thought I'd live to see the day that a pigeon would need Preparation-H!!!
> 
> Pidgey


LOL, funny.
I have never thought I would have to apply it on a pigeon.


----------



## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

Reti, just like Andrew, I'm happy that Whitney is home!
I'm praying that she will be recover soon.

Phyll


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti, 

I'm hoping that Whitney will be fine now and just needs some quiet time at home to recuperate. Poor girl has been through a lot with the surgeries and deserves some peace and time with her Andrew.


----------

