# I have an Important question



## stedman (Feb 15, 2006)

Hi All...
As you know I'm headed to Norco Sat. a.m.
My doctor said that I should burn my loft to the ground to get rid of the antigens, as they have found that even after birds are removed, the antigens have been found as long as two years later...this loft, after 1 side has been removed could be used as a place for my horses to hang out when in that paddock during the summer 8x16.....so, my question is, is there any spray that can be used to kill all of the antigen on the wood and ground after nest boxes, perches and loose poops have be removed? it is a very solid structure and I hate to burn it to the ground... I thought maybe using a torch on the wood, but not enough to start the wood on fire then spray something? that would take care of the rest....I thought if anybody would know, it would be you guys....any ideas? thanks Joyce (maybe Thompsons sealer?)


----------



## Anarrowescape (Jan 6, 2004)

i would not get rid of it just incase your pigeons find there way home if they get let out. i am not sure about wot would get rid of the stuff. good luck with it


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Have you looked at this thread about Oxine A H, I don't exactly know if that might help but please read. It seems to kill alot of bacteria, even respiratory infection, and has shown to have positive results in humans. Perhaps you can use it to disinfect the whole area.


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13202


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Stedman,

I used to keep bees and we did scorch hives and supers with a torch to kill off certain diseases that could not be eliminated with certainty any other way. While hives are not anything like coops it seems to me the principles are the same. I can understand you not wanting to destroy what is otherwise a perfectly good structure though.

Exercise extreme caution for sure when inside as there will certainly be toxic fumes if you do try a scorch method. Don't do it alone either and be ready with water etc in case you start a fire by accident. The hardest spots to reach are the corners because of rhe way flames tend to spread. With hives we would repaint after scorching. You may want to consider that or repannelling the interior or something to that effect as well after a scorch. Hope that helps.

Cameron


----------



## stedman (Feb 15, 2006)

Hi Camron
Scorching sounds good...we have a gadget that hooks up to a propane tank with a about a 3 foot wand..I think that would be a good way to get in the corners etc...My friends will take care of it with a hose near...I can't get near the loft.....thanks, you just confirmed it....I don't see how the torch wouldn't take care of the antigens....BURN THOSE SUCKERS UP...
thanks Joyce


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Right on Stedman,

And a small tight flame for corners is the way to go. I was thinking after I posted too about the toxins created by flame. I think you would want to be very carefull about waiting before you put your birds back in to that cleaned environment after torching. Burnt odors continue to emit over long periods of time so good ventilation is a must. That's where scraping and then sealing the surface afterwards becomes important. I just have no idea how lingering burnt odors might affect birds. The bees did OK but they are bugs afterall. Just thought it would be good to mention this to you.

Cameron


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Camrron said:


> I think you would want to be very carefull about waiting before you put your birds back in to that cleaned environment after torching.


Hi Cameron and all,

Unfortunately, Joyce has to become "birdless" for her health. She is driving all her beloved babies down to Bart's on Saturday. My heart goes out to her, but I suspect she will be feeling some better once she has met Bart and has gotten her birds settled in with him. Thus, there will be no birds going back into the structure.

I really admire her for going to such lengths for her birds.

Terry


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Terry for that update.

I didn't clue in that Stedman was the same person as "Help needed A.S.A.P" Now I understand what Joyce meant when she said she could not go near her loft. God bless you Joyce that you have found good people to take care of your beloved birds and do take care of yourself and your health.

All the best,

Cameron


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

If by "antigen", you mean what you are reacting to (I'm guessing you have "pigeon lung?"), then you shouldn't have to worry about it, if you are removing one wall, to make a shelter of sorts for your horses.

Most doctors are not well versed in pigeon lung. Their first reaction is - get rid of the birds, and everything that is associated with them.

People with pigeon lung sometimes keep their birds. By adding ventilation to their lofts (I know one guy who has one wall completely screened, and others that have expanded metal floors), they can cut down on the amount of 'bloom' in the loft, and still be able to go in and look after the birds.

If you are totally removing one wall, there is nothing to hold the bloom in - and you won't be going into an enclosed building, exposing yourself to it. If it was possible to get pigeon lung, or have a reaction to bloom out in the open, there would be cases of it in the general public anywhere pigeons live, I would think.

I was diagnosed with pigeon lung 5 years ago. The respirologist told me we had to get rid of all our birds. We still have them. I had my annual physical with my family doc a month or so ago - he says my lungs are perfectly clear, there is no sign of how sick I was back then (I couldn't walk more than 10 feet without having to stop and catch my breath). The doc then laughed and said "and you still have your birds, don't you?"


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*A little common sense please....*

In all seriousness, what the heck to doctors know ? I have chronic lung disease, which is totally unrelated to my pigeons. It had more to do with my facination with the Marlboro man for 40 years ! 

Good ventilation is critical for the birds, and the fancier. I also happen to wear a very high grade respirator while in my loft. So, any fanciers out there, start taking some common sense precautions.

Why anyone would give up the birds, instead of investing in a respirator, and providing good ventilation, is a mystery to me.


----------



## stedman (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re:having common sense*

unlike packs of Marlboros, pigeons don't come with a warning on the side of
them...I didn't choose the risk of getting lung disease.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Over My Head....*

I am sorry...I guess this has just gone over my head. I don't know any one who "chose the risk of getting lung cancer".... either. 

If a person puts themself into a situation where they are inhaling a variety of foreign materials that do not belong in the lungs, then you risk causing some damage. This could be anything from smog, dust, smoke, chemicals, asbestos, acid rain etc. In fact, I am sure that there is some documentation out there some where, that suggests you will be at higher risk..simply by living in the USA, because of all the industrial polution. So, if you really are interested in your lung health, moving out of this country and into a less developed country would be an important first step.

I am not really suggesting that you do that, I am suggesting applying some common sense. I don't think breathing in a car's exhaust is good for you, but I doubt the doctor is suggesting that you don't drive in a car. So neither would it make sense to spend time in an airtight, dusty pigeon loft., or for that matter any other air tight dusty place. That was to be my point anyway. Oh, by the way, there is no warning labels on the side of horses, but don't fall off one either, that can be very bad for your health, remember Christopher Reeves ?

PS. I am old enough to remember when they used doctors in cigarette commercials, it was to be good for your health  !!!


----------



## DeadIrishD (Sep 28, 2005)

I hate to hijack, but they once belived that smoking was good for your health?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well like I said,

I have CRD, having problems with your lungs is nothing I would wish onto anyone. So if you smoke, stop. If you have pigeons, make sure you have good ventilation and wear lung protection. You really don't want to be in a position where you are breathing in dust, no matter what kind. 

You will find that if you have a dusty loft, with poor ventilation, that the pigeons will suffer too. I suggest that you look at your loft and see if there are ways to improve the ventilation. You want and need good clean air. I can tell in about 5 seconds if a loft has good ventilation, I simply lift off my resperator and take a breath. I can "smell" the dust in the air.

Take a look inside your loft when a good ray of sunshine is coming into the loft, and you can normally see the airborne particles in the air...that is the stuff which is bad for your birds, and in time, can be worse then smoking to the fancier. Now if you smoke on top of it, like I did, then you are setting yourself up for a very, very bad situation. 

Take care of yourself and the birds. If you have or are developing lung problems, then you must take corrective action, and always wear protective gear.


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Guess I don't know what an antigen is then. Can anyone explain. Is it the body's reaction to particles and proteins? When I first read this thread I thought we were working on trying to kill off something living in the coop with flame or disinfectants. 

Cameron


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

antigen

n : any substance (as a toxin or enzyme) that stimulates the production of antibodies


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Hello All, 

By the Doctors use of the word antigen, I would say that something ether inside the loft or possibly the birds themselves is causing an anaphylactic reaction. If it’s causing the reaction inside the lungs it would be a reaction similar to asthma, only much worse. During an asthma attack the lungs become constricted and close off. Now if it’s an antigen causing this reaction, the symptoms would be similar to an asthma attack, but will become much worse in severity each time the person is exposed to the antigen. 

Basically it’s like someone who is allergic to bee stings. One sting for some people and its lights out permanently if you don’t have a heppi-pin to give immediately. Then it’s directly to the ER for follow-up. Not much fun for those who are allegrgic to bee stings like a cousin of mine.

When I first met my wife of over 18 years ago now and mother of both my son’s by the way. I had raised and trained three generations of Doberman Pinchers. My wife was allergic to there saliva, one lick on her skin and 15 min later she would be broke out with a bad rash. 

Anyway I’m getting al little off track here, after my last Doberman had to be put down from old age, we now have Schnauzers, (she’s not allergic to them). So from experience I would say to clean and wash down the loft with a good antibacterial detergent or soap, then paint over whatever section or sections of the loft you decide to leave standing. Then if you choose to use it for your horses there should be no residual problems.

Lawman


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Yup Ok. I borrowed a neighbors Webster's and it also says an Antigen is any substance that stimulates the production of Antibodies. Learned something new today. So that could include any or all of Pigeon dust, feathers, feces etc etc. I like the idea of the sealer once the walls are cleaned Lawman. It seems to me it would be an essential step for Joyce's health and well-being if she wants to ever go back into that space.

Cameron


----------



## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Stedman - Smith Family - White Wings,

I am confused what your saying that Flares up/causes Pigeon Lung Disease. I thought that they found out that it was from the Spores off the Feces/Pigeon Poop in these later yrs.. I know in the 50's 60's it was always thought of as being the Bloom that is on our pigeons. Maybe Antigen covers this?? Since you all have this, you should know......... I have been using Expanded Metal Floors 20" above Cement Slab with 1"in.X1in. square slide out covering for the 20" under loft so nothing can get under loft & slide out for cleanings now for the last 3-4 yrs. I can tell ya that it sure cuts down on the Dust etc. that I used to have with solid floors. Sure easier on my breathing, even though I don't have the disease....
Happy


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Well I've been doing my reading about Pigeon-Lung today and was struck that the size of the proteins causing the respiratory problems are under 5 microns. Yikes! You could not even safely vacuum out dusty coops without getting a lungfull from the exhaust of the typical vacuum.

A sick person really would have to treat an environment like a coop as a toxic site to be avoided at all costs. It reminded me of how the specialists would tell us it is not safe at all to sweep or vacuum in sheds infected by Hantavirus mouse droppings. 

All the more reason to seal the surfaces as Lawman suggested after treatment to ensure no free-floating dusts are unnacounted for. And turning existing protiens and dusts into charcoal with a good scorch likely won't hurt either. I came across a handy pigeon-lung Q&A when I was reading "A tale of two Pidgies" so I will throw it out again for anyone else who like me wondered about this illness.

http://www.pigeon-lung.co.uk/faq.html

After that reading and others, Joyce, I can now understand why you may have had no choice but to give up your birds altogether. It seems the severity can vary substantially from person to person, even possibly causing death. Sorry again for you that you had to give up your birds.

Cameron


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Perhaps it is my experinece in working with military biological and chemical warfare training situations. I am convinced the various protective gear available, will work with these hazarous materials, and thus certainly the proper protective gear will work with our pigeon lofts.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/unp-intrecppe.htm

Your typical Home Depot respirators sold to protect againest paint fumes and chemical agents, will work on particles smaller then 3 microns. If one is really concerned, a NIOSH-approved, pressure-demand SCBA in conjunction with a Level A protective suit, is available, used in responding to a suspected biological incident. So the equipment is available, if one has the the resouces, and the desire to employ such protective measures.

Realistically, a simple M-95 protective mask is overkill enough. My point is, if there is the will, there is a way.

http://www.scotthealthsafety.com/m95.htm


----------



## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

From Dictionary.com:

an·ti·gen ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt-jn) also an·ti·gene (-jn)
n. 
A substance that when introduced into the body stimulates the production of an antibody. Antigens include toxins, bacteria, foreign blood cells, and the cells of transplanted organs.


From everything I've read on pigeon lung (and trust me, it's been a lot! lol), it is mostly the bloom that causes the reaction. Pigeon lung is a hyper-reactive allergic reaction to the 'antigen'. It is also known as hyper-sensitive pneumonitis - and can be caused by things other than pigeons (it's also called farmers lung, among other things)

I am ok going into the loft (now), as long as whatever I'm doing does not stir up a lot of dust. I can feed and water, handle/band babies, take the birds for training, etc. I cannot catch the birds to crate them up (my husband does that), or do any cleaning in the loft.

For some people, giving up the birds is the best option. If it weren't for my husband, I would have had to give up mine. I was so sick, I couldn't even have looked after the birds, even with a good respirator. I stayed out of the lofts for a year (still took the birds training, but that was it). Once my health was better, I slowly started doing things in the loft - with a good mask. As long as I wear a mask, I'm ok, and even going into the loft to check babies (for a short period of time) without a mask, I'm not having any problems. But everyone is different - some people cannot take any amount of being near the birds without reacting.

Having a 'loft coat' and boots that I wear only in the loft too (my husband does as well) help a lot!


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I can relate, Whitewings*

I myself, was diagnosed with an allergy to pigeon protein, definitely the pigeon lung. It was during the time I was raising two babies indoors and spending an hour each day inside the coop cleaning.

I'm okay now, but my husband does the major cleaning and scraping and sweeping the floor. I clean out the baby doll coop, and the aviaries, which are a piece of cake. My husband definitely saved my hobby! I told my doctor I was not getting rid of the "offending agent", we now discuss my birds when I have my 6 month check ups.

I am much more tolerant when I am in the coop also, because I leave the door open now (because of the aviary wraps around the door), and the ventilation is excellent. We also made a walk in aviary so I can spend more time with my birds, without any worries in an outside setting. 

Between excellent ventilation and preventive nutrition I'm okay. I feel that my nutrition also has to meet my needs, because I believe my "pigeon lung" also happened because my immune system was not at optimum response.

I also change shoes when we leave the loft, not only because of the dust but because of poop all over them.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here's a page of the test panel that they take when they suspect "Hypersensitive Pneumonitis" or "Extrinsic Allergic Alveolitis" or "BFL--Bird Fancier's Lung" or "Pigeon Lung" (Whew!):

http://etd.paml.com/etd/display.php?ordercode=HLDP&and=&andand=

You'll note at the bottom that the same disturbance to the lungs can be caused by molds.

Pidgey


----------



## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks a lot Warren,

The info and links on the NIOSH respirators are of use to me and very handy I must say too. I have bookmarked for future reference. Anyone who is concerned about bio problems, pigeon-lung, bird-flu etc should have a good respirator if they want to live in public areas when the (you know what) hits the fan one day soon.

It is on my "To-Buy" list now. So also some of my concerns about pigeon-lung are put to rest. Treesa, as she has remarked has managed to hang in there nicely through precautions, diet and common sense. She is a very determined and serious pigeon keeper indeed. Tells off her doctor to boot!

Whitewings comments also make sense to me though. This is the first time I have heard pigeon-lung is also called Farmers-lung. Which makes perfect sense. I know of farmers who absolutely cannot work with chickens anymore. So there is a relationship with birds, bird proteins, dander, dust, bloom or whatever one wants to call it that is not just about pigeons at all but relates to birds in general. This is good to know. 

Once your health has been seriously compromised you might not really care a hoot about all the protective gear in the world though. You would do everthing in your power to avoid the contaminant and any further risks it might pose to your life. I do still understand Joyces concerns despite good equipment on the market. I think there are other factors at play that good gear cannot address. Just my thoughts.

Cameron


----------



## Steelers Army (Mar 3, 2006)

*not sure whats antigens is*

but I know for sure that a loft or coop needs to be ventilated or has to be open , good for the bords and good for you so the dust or any scents from it will come out , I read a lot of info before I build my loft and I make sure they are well ventilated and not too cold in winter. I just cover it with thick plastic which I bought from Home Depot and i make sure that its always dry keep it clean every 2 days or a day 1/2. I cant see my birds living in that place with those scents of their own poops or wet water sitting inside.


----------

