# Natural Supplements



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

What Natural supplements do you use. Please also let us know when, how much and how often you use them..

Here is a big one for me,

My birds get garlic powder and probios in their water every day. Right now the breeders are getting a low dose ( 1/4 tsp. of each per gallon). As the babies start hatching the garlic will be upped to 1/2 tsp. Later in the racing loft they will get as much as 1 tsp per gallon. By doing this the young birds food has always tasted like garlic from the day they hatched. Not only will they not refuse to drink normaly when garlic is put in their water but when I wean them and move them to the racing loft I have no problem with them not finding the water! It smells like the food mom and dad were giving them and they find it every time (I did not have to dip one beak last year). 

The low dose of probios keeps the good gut bacteria in their system. 

Ace


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Prevention: Nutrition and medicine.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

Good tip Ace


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

ace in the hole said:


> *My birds get garlic powder and probios in their water every day. * Right now the breeders are getting a low dose ( 1/4 tsp. of each per gallon). As the babies start hatching the garlic will be upped to 1/2 tsp. Later in the racing loft they will get as much as 1 tsp per gallon. By doing this the young birds food has always tasted like garlic from the day they hatched. Not only will they not refuse to drink normaly when garlic is put in their water but when I wean them and move them to the racing loft I have no problem with them not finding the water! It smells like the food mom and dad were giving them and they find it every time (I did not have to dip one beak last year).


My babies get the garlic straight from mom and dad too, so they are used to the taste, I'm glad you brought that up, that is so true.

In regards to using the probiotics and garlic the same day, it may defeat the purpose. Garlic kills bacteria (goog or bad), it doesn't discriminate, so it might be best to give the probiotics a few days after the garlic, so the good gut bacteria can survive and multiply.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I agree with Treesa. You are probably killing those good bacteria as well. Kill first, then procreate later.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Prevention: Nutrition and medicine.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760


Thank you *Trees Gray *for the link to the old thread and I will make sure the galic and the probios are given separately.

Ace


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

ace in the hole said:


> What Natural supplements do you use. Please also let us know when, how much and how often you use them..
> 
> Here is a big one for me,
> 
> ...


Ace,

Ever try putting the garlic on the food in the form of garlic oil instead of in the water? I wonder if there is any difference. I am putting the garlic on the food on two day intervals with my probiotic. I guess we will see if they still benefit from it. My thoughts were that with it on the food there wouldn't be any problem with the taste of the water. Of course, the taste is on the food but it certainly hasn't slowed them down any as far as their eating habits goes!

Dan


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Garlic is considered a prebiotic and in approved dosages, will not 'wipe out' good bacteria and actually promotes the growth of microflora levels. Prebiotics essentially provide nutrients or the environment which support the growth in numbers for good bacteria. Probiotics are the foods/nutrients which actually
provide the good bacteria. By using prebiotics first before 'dosing' with probiotics, one creates the supportive environment needed for the probiotics to
have the maximum growth which is the desired outcome.

http://www.cellscience.com/Reviews1/Importance_of_Probiotics_and_Prebiotics_to_Health.html

fp


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Garlic is considered a prebiotic and in approved dosages, will not 'wipe out' good bacteria and actually promotes the growth of microflora levels. Prebiotics essentially provide nutrients or the environment which support the growth in numbers for good bacteria. Probiotics are the foods/nutrients which actually
> provide the good bacteria. By using prebiotics first before 'dosing' with probiotics, one creates the supportive environment needed for the probiotics to
> have the maximum growth which is the desired outcome.
> 
> ...


Thank You *Feralpigeon* I knew what I was doing must be working because all the birds were as healthy as can be. 

Here is another thing I do for the birds. 

I don't mess with putting stuff on their feed. My birds do get brewers yeast but not on the feed. I keep fresh grit and oyster shell in the loft at all times. I mix 1 tbsp brewers yeast with 3 to 4 cups oyster shell. After mixing it well, each peice of shell is coated with brewers yeast. 


Ace


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Besides the garlic and ACV, I also use honey every once in a while, and crushed red chili pepper. I only use the honey for the flying birds. It's not good for human babies, so I just kept it away from the parents with babies in the nest. The pepper sprinkled on top of the food is good for parasite control, and has a lot of other benefits too.

And back to the garlic, I only use it on the feed, not in the water. I put some brewer's yeast on there too. I'm glad that stuff actually smells good, cause the garlic sure is strong


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Ace,

There is garlic oil which can be added to feed without much ado, though the 
crushed garlic in the water + refridgeration overnight is just so good in terms
of the addition to the diet. Brewers Yeast and the high B's that it provides is
also an excellent resource for our pigeons as long as we remember to pull the 
brewer's yeast when administering antibiotics as there is the propensity for 
developing fungal/yeast infections while simultaneously administering yeast supplements and antibiotics especially of the Tetracycline family.

Otherwise, Brewers yeast is an excellent source of vitamins and minerals for
our birds and you will hopefully be pleased w/the outcome.

Pigeons become accustomed to garlic in their water and elsewhere in their 
dietary environment.....I'm sure that all will prevail.....

fp

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> In regards to using the probiotics and garlic the same day, it may defeat the purpose. Garlic kills bacteria (good or bad), it doesn't discriminate, so it might be best to give the probiotics a few days after the garlic, so the good gut bacteria can survive and multiply.


I'm talking about a heavy dose of garlic, so I will continue to give my birds garlic a few days before the probiotics, just to be sure, so there is no conflict of interest.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I also from time to time use garlic oil and brewers yeast. I have also used olive and peanut oil. They do not like the peanut oil much. I use the oil for both the yeast and vitamins(not natural). I will throw some lettuce or greens in from time to time. I was thinking spinach might be something to think about. I will also introduce honey in the water in the near future.

The old guys used to use the gravel off of ant hills as grit. Seems like in an area with a lot of calcium in the rocks this could supplement the grit. I have also used pic stones with good results. 

Some non organic things that I add from time to time are Red Cell horse vitamins to the water and regular powder vitamins to the food.

Randy


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## lQQl (Dec 30, 2008)

.....just a quick question regarding brewer's yeast....where do you guys get it?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I ordered it through Jedds. You can also pic some up at health food stores or those stores in the mall that sell supplements. They cost about the same. 

Randy


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

I never did like peanut oil as it has always been susceptible to getting rancid, etc..... with all this peanut butter salmonella stuff floating around.....who knows?


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## kingsley hannah (Jan 9, 2008)

i use a product that is made here in new zealand although i am sure somthing similar must be available elsewhere

ANimail health elixer
AHE contains Cider Vinegar, Garlic, Seaweed, Molasses & Manuka Honey. It is made up entirely of natures' nutrients and has proven to be extremely beneficial to the health of all animals. It has no withholding period.

APPLE CIDER VINEGAR is a natural product rich in health giving bacterial enzymes, acid and minerals (including selenium, a mineral lacking in New Zealand soils and deficient in stock).

GARLIC has a variety of actions which will strengthen and support the animals physiological systems thereby encouraging the animal to "heal itself". Garlic contains 33 sulphur compounds, 17 amino acids, germanium, calcium, copper, iron, potassium, magnesium, selenium, zinc and vitamins A, B1 and C. It also supports development of natural bacterial floras, vital to a good digestive system.

MANUKA HONEY has a unique hydrogen peroxide antibacterial activity.

Seaweed provides a whole range of vitamins from A through to M (Folic Acid), so essential for the efficient digestion and metabolism of the diet.
Seaweed also contains up to 20 minerals.

Here's what one of our customers says about this product:
"Hi, I have used this on my poultry for pooie bums in chicks and they have improved over night its amazing, my hubby took some of it and gave to his scouring calves and in two days they were 100% so I love this product." Marlene & Grant, Raglan.

Administered by, Dosatron, manually drench, blending with the animals feed or pouring A.H.E in troughs on a regular basis.
Overdosing is not possible


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

That animal elixir sounds good for humans, too!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ace in the hole said:


> What Natural supplements do you use. Please also let us know when, how much and how often you use them..
> 
> Here is a big one for me,
> 
> ...



Hello Ace,

The title of your thread is "Natural Supplements", but I am wondering how one actually defines "Natural" and what difference or advantage that may actually have ? I mean I give my birds on a regular basis vitamins: A, D3, E, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B11, B12, C , K3, and H along with 22 different kinds of Amino Acids, plus various Chelated Minerals such as Calcium, Cobalt, Cooper, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Zinc and Hydrolized proteins, and then there are the various concentrated greens and various plant extracts in addition to such "Natural" things as Braggs ACV. Most of the above comes in a commercial powder or liquid form. They come from "Natural" occuring things, but are formulated by humans. Is one process better then another ? I mean does it really matter if one consumes their vitamin C from a pill or a glass of OJ ?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Ace,
> 
> The title of your thread is "Natural Supplements", but I am wondering how one actually defines "Natural" and what difference or advantage that may actually have ? I mean I give my birds on a regular basis vitamins: A, D3, E, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B11, B12, C , K3, and H along with 22 different kinds of Amino Acids, plus various Chelated Minerals such as Calcium, Cobalt, Cooper, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Zinc and Hydrolized proteins, and then there are the various concentrated greens and various plant extracts in addition to such "Natural" things as Braggs ACV. Most of the above comes in a commercial powder or liquid form. They come from "Natural" occuring things, but are formulated by humans. Is one process better then another ?* I mean does it really matter if one consumes their vitamin C from a pill or a glass of OJ ? *


I don't think it matters, but it's sure a lot easier to swallow or chew up a few pills than it is to drink a 1/2 gallon of OJ everyday........


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> I don't think it matters, but it's sure a lot easier to swallow or chew up a few pills than it is to drink a 1/2 gallon of OJ everyday........


 I'm thinking that the orange grove owners would suggest that drinking OJ is better for you !! And the pill makers would suggest that their product is better ! 

Then there are "experts" out there who claim, that a good, well balanced diet, is all one needs to get all of the needed vitimins to stay healthy. I have always suspected, that much of what we give our pigeons, or take ourselves, makes us "feel good" that we are doing something. In some of these cases, we may simply be wasting money, and in some cases, we may be doing more harm then good. And by that I mean we may in many cases be over doing some of these things, and actually causing a toxic situation.


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## pigeon_milker (Jan 19, 2009)

we use black minerals pecking stones chopped sprouts,broccoli,seaweed,cabbage
and we put some elderberry and garlic in the water over the winter months


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Ace,
> 
> The title of your thread is "Natural Supplements", but I am wondering how one actually defines "Natural" and what difference or advantage that may actually have ? I mean I give my birds on a regular basis vitamins: A, D3, E, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B11, B12, C , K3, and H along with 22 different kinds of Amino Acids, plus various Chelated Minerals such as Calcium, Cobalt, Cooper, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Zinc and Hydrolized proteins, and then there are the various concentrated greens and various plant extracts in addition to such "Natural" things as Braggs ACV. Most of the above comes in a commercial powder or liquid form. They come from "Natural" occuring things, but are formulated by humans. Is one process better then another ? I mean does it really matter if one consumes their vitamin C from a pill or a glass of OJ ?


I think natural is better than synthetic. man made or processed so much the body does'nt recoginise it to use it. close to natural as possible, but can't always be done....I say keep it simple and unprocessed, just a gut feeling.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Is one process better then another ? I mean does it really matter if one consumes their vitamin C from a pill or a glass of OJ ?


The orange would be EVEN better. Vitamin C from an orange will give the bioflavanoids right close to the rind of the orange too, besides just vitamin C, that makes it more potent.

I myself believe that "natural" and/or "organic" is giving my birds nutrition from actual foods they come from, or sources as closest to nature-when possible and available. This is my definition, not the standard.

They are more readily absorbed in the body, and easier on the digestive system. It takes energy to burn what is not organic, especially additives and artificials and synthetic man-made vitamins.

Here is one example, I rather would give my birds a drop of REAL & ORGANIC cod liver oil from the fish (fish of course would be best, if you can get it) once a month(pristine source, and mercury free)when necessary, (if they aren't getting enough sun-or for special rehab), then an artificial source, because they are not only getting vitamin D, but all the other things that come with it, which are Vitamin A and vitamin E and DHa and EPA. This makes it better available to digestion and for absorption. It also enables better absorption of calcium.
I give some of my hens real alfalfa tabs (cold process/minimum processing), straight from the plant, as it is loaded with many good things, not just vitamin C, but a whole bunch of trace minerals also necessary for digestion and not available in other sources.
Our bodies were designed to eat the foods from the earth, without all the pesticides and other dissabling factors. It is also that way for our birds.

Honey is its raw state-is an organic sweetner, sugar is manufactured. Do you know how much energy it takes to digest sugar? It is such a huge additive and it is an ingredient in so many processed foods, and it is so bad for your heart and many other organs, and you have to replenish the gut flora after heavy doses. The natural sweetness of raw honey is designed to be the sweetner of choice. It's very readily absorbable, doesn't require alot of energy or burning of vital nutrients to get it to digest and has added benefits. Instead of taking away energy a tablespoon before work-outs gives you energy.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just a reminder on Brewer's Yeast, don't give to your birds if they are on antibiotics....and if the antibiotics are either from the Tetracycline family
or fluoroquinolone class (Baytril/Cipro) remember to pull all grit.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> I'm talking about a heavy dose of garlic, so I will continue to give my birds garlic a few days before the probiotics, just to be sure, so there is no conflict of interest.


There isn't a conflict of interest, both vinegar and garlic are prebiotics and not
antibiotics per se. Good bacteria is acid loving and flourishes in the environment that both garlic and vinegar foster.

fp


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

feralpigeon said:


> There isn't a conflict of interest, both vinegar and garlic are prebiotics and not
> antibiotics per se. Good bacteria is acid loving and flourishes in the environment that both garlic and vinegar foster.
> 
> fp


Just an FYI. I e-mailed Dr. Walker of the Australian Pigeon Company (APC) about the use of his probiotic with garlic oil and he said not to use them simultaneously. In fact it now comes with a sticker that says "no garlic" on it.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*A Word of Caution....*



learning said:


> Just an FYI. I e-mailed Dr. Walker of the Australian Pigeon Company (APC) about the use of his probiotic with garlic oil and he said not to use them simultaneously. In fact it now comes with a sticker that says "no garlic" on it.
> 
> Dan


 In such matters...I tend to go along with what the good doctor orders. 

I have often suspected, that we as fanciers, wanting the best for our birds, sometimes tend to go overboard, thinking that the more good stuff we get into our birds the better. Sometimes, by doing this, we can cause more harm then good. Which is why the great Master Ad Schaerlaeckens has suggested that new fanciers simply stay away from medications and vitimins, the thinking I am sure, is more often then not, in their zest to do right by their birds, they can cause more harm. 

How much all of this may have to do with even the use of various natural foods and the like, I have no idea. But, if your birds are already in a beautiful and perfect state of health, with beautiful feather, perfect skin and throats...and every indication of having a very healthy and strong natural immune system. I question at times, if I should attempt to "fix it" and make it better ? Or, as my early mentor advised....if things are going well...then don't change a thing ! Don't upset the apple cart......

So, I guess my two cents on this interesting topic...is if you are reading these various posts, and things are going well with your birds...perhaps you should leave well enough alone...and don't start dumping everything you have read about in this thread into your birds water or onto their feed, thinking you will make things even better.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> In such matters...I tend to go along with what the good doctor orders.
> 
> I have often suspected, that we as fanciers, wanting the best for our birds, sometimes tend to go overboard, thinking that the more good stuff we get into our birds the better. Sometimes, by doing this, we can cause more harm then good. Which is why the great Master Ad Schaerlaeckens has suggested that new fanciers simply stay away from medications and vitimins, the thinking I am sure, is more often then not, in their zest to do right by their birds, they can cause more harm.
> 
> ...


I think this is great advice, just good clean seed& legumes, and fresh water, does'nt get more natural that that! there is something said for keeping it simple.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

learning said:


> Just an FYI. I e-mailed Dr. Walker of the Australian Pigeon Company (APC) about the use of his probiotic with garlic oil and he said not to use them simultaneously. In fact it now comes with a sticker that says "no garlic" on it.
> 
> Dan


There are many schools of thought on the use of probiotics, prebiotics and
simultaneous use w/prescription antibiotics. Many of my doctors recommend
using probiotics simultaneously w/antibiotics, I tend to use my judgement
when choosing how to approach a given situation.

The statement I made regarding garlic being a prebiotic stems from the fact that while having antibacterial capabilities, it is not in fact, an antibiotic. Herbal approaches shouldn't be confused w/AMA medicines. Take clay treatments for instance. Clay (food grade when taken internally) is said
to have the ability to draw toxins out as needed in addition to providing
minerals. Many times herbals w/medicinal properties are 'balancers' which
is pretty different than Western Medicine's antibiotics. The amounts needed
to ingest in order to reach a critical situation are greater than the same amounts needed where prescription meds are concerned. 
I don't 'dump' where my birds are concerned, yet recognize that some 
additives in the food and water are far more supportively benign than others.

fp


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## pigeon_racer (Jan 12, 2009)

Garlic is mainly useful for kepping coccicidia counts low as it is a natural coccidiastat. How well it works on other maladies I'm not sure. Just remember that you need to treat it like any other medicine, just because a little in the water or feed is good doesn't mean that a large dose would be even better. It can do harm as well as good.

Ralph


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pigeon_racer said:


> Garlic is mainly useful for kepping coccicidia counts low as it is a natural coccidiastat. How well it works on other maladies I'm not sure. Just remember that you need to treat it like any other medicine, just because a little in the water or feed is good doesn't mean that a large dose would be even better. It can do harm as well as good.
> 
> Ralph


As a prebiotic, garlic creates an acidic environment which is what beneficial/good bacteria thrives on and multiplies in. When the count rises
for the good bacteria, it in turn discourages the growth of bad bacteria, parasites, trichomonas, etc. It isnt' necessary to give large quantities of ACV or garlic in the water as low amounts will still create the acidic environment which encourages the growth of the beneficial bacteria.

fp


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## Robert Lee (Jan 24, 2009)

*Natural supplements*

I use a couple cloves of crushed garlic in the drinking water once weekly. Other days it is apple cider vinegar, Thursday they get either Lemon Juice or Zev in the water for any respiratory issues and Friday plain water.
One supplement that worked well during the breeding season is Spirulina powder and is readily available in health food stores. I had a can left over from my fish hobby days and after exchanging e-mails with Bill Hatcher of Galaxy Loft decided to try it in the feed. I noticed my birds would eat fresh grass clippings during the summer so I figured they can get their greens from the Spirulina during the winter. It has some probiotic properties. How exactly it works I couldn't tell you. I had no young bird sickness in the past three years since I started using it and the youngsters were absolutely healthy.


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