# Possible Unusual Presentation of Canker



## Pidgey

AZfiddler_1996 and I have been discussing a pigeon that she has that has been demonstrating some odd symptoms over the last week. He started with a large bubble (his name's Bubbles, now) under the skin indicating a ruptured air sac. That resolved without manual deflation but he didn't seem to feel well after that (understandably) and so he's been listless for a few days now. 

She had some other birds that started demonstrating canker so I had her round up some Flagyl to start dosing all the birds, including Bubbles. A few days ago, there were bubbles in Bubbles' poop as well. We got some very basic drugs going Licha's way (4-in-1 and Sulmet from JEDDS) but we really didn't know what we were dealing with.

Bubbles started standing and walking with his wings hanging down and then started going into what Licha described to be kind of a mild stargazing. He has since not done the stargazing thing again(that was about Thursday at 6:00 PM-ish or almost 30 hours ago this writing) and today he has attempted some preening and has eaten a couple of peas on his own.

This evening, she discovered that there is a small bald spot on the back of the left side of the head. I had (quite by accident) discovered documentation of an unusual presentation of Trichomoniasis (Canker) where a lesion forms in the back of the head. There are pictures that show a young pigeon (still alive) that is in a mild torticollis with his feet stuck out slightly to the side and the wings drooping a bit. The picture next to that one shows that same pigeon's head detached and the skin removed to show the yellow buildup of spent leukocytes (that is typical of the inflammatory response to Trichomonads) in the rear left quadrant of the skull. The picture after that shows the top of the cranium cut and pulled back to show the accumulation of necrotic tissue in that portion of the back of the brain.

Now, while we don't know if this is the case with Bubbles, the indications point to this being an extremely high probability. The bird hasn't been on any other medication for long enough to demonstrate a turnaround. We'll be watching Bubbles very closely over the next few days.

In retrospect, my bird, YoYo, might very well have suffered this exact same disease etiology. There is a malformed area of the skull back there that the vet had thought was very odd and the feathers there did some funny stuff back at that time. He also had some torticollis and other CNS signs and continues to have the epileptic seizures to this day (episodic circling). I'm hoping that Bubbles will fare better, though.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Please check out the pics of my new juvenile pigeon today .. also very strange .. http://www.rims.net/2006Jun02 

Best of luck to you and Alice in taking care of her unusual case. Thank you, Pidgey, for helping with meds.

Terry


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## Feather

Nice going Pidgey! We will all have our P.T. Doctrines by the time that you are finished with us. 

Alice, I wish you and your little Bubbles all the luck in fighting this thing.

Your a magnificent medical twosome!

Best Wishes
Feather


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## Pidgey

TAWhatley said:


> Please check out the pics of my new juvenile pigeon today .. also very strange .. http://www.rims.net/2006Jun02
> 
> Best of luck to you and Alice in taking care of her unusual case. Thank you, Pidgey, for helping with meds.
> 
> Terry


Terry,

That certainly looks complicated and it is reminiscent of this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=81687&postcount=31

where the alopecia was bilateral. That bird died soon after the photos were taken although we don't have the details of the symptoms at the last. It was something that went acute but I've since suspected Trichomoniasis. It could be spreading as an "ear, nose, throat" etiology and following the neural pathway to the brain. In the book, there's very little said about it because the pictures are the bulk of the story but the final stages are encephalitic. I almost died that way when I was six years old so I kinda' know what that's like. The doctor told Mom while I was in the hospital that this was "as sick as a person can possibly get."

I don't think I had Canker, though, but they did a spinal tap--I can still remember it although I certainly didn't care much at the time.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

TAWhatley said:


> Please check out the pics of my new juvenile pigeon today .. also very strange .. http://www.rims.net/2006Jun02
> 
> Best of luck to you and Alice in taking care of her unusual case. Thank you, Pidgey, for helping with meds.
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry, 


Could be a Chemical burn...

Remember 'Baby Daisy' ? - the Baby Pigeon with the odd 'skin' splotches I had last Summer? 

Her neck was wrinkled and swollen, and there were a number of similar splotches on other areas of her body.

Anyway, that was my eventual conclusion or acceptance on her skin areas. Turned out too, where she was found, some maintainance worker had been splashing chemicals on various birds when he could, and she was a ground-Baby with Canker, so...

I got the Canker cleared up pronto, but the skin spots took a while...it was leathery and oddly waxy-dry and grey colored with no feathers in the areas, and these areas had a distribution pattern consistant with something splashing on her...or not inconsistant anyway...

I tried different things before I decided it was Chemical burns...

http://community.webshots.com/album/396945195SFczmN



Anyway, Pidgey, 'Bubbles'...

Yeeeeeeeesh, poor little thing...

'Flagyl' being an other name for 'Metronidazole'...


Would there be any advatage do you think, to a medley of tiny sub-cutaceous injections of medicine in-to the actual localle of the appearent ( or better yet, confirmed ) Trichomona conlonization? if one were gentle and depth-precise enough, and useing a minute Needle?

Certainly being so close to the Brain, would seem very time-value dangerous...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Well, remember: the trichomonads per se aren't near the problem that the body's overreacting immune response is. Most of the medications that we use for this are in the Nitroimidazole family which are known (Metronidazole, at least) to have the odd effect of moderating the immune response. The big question then becomes: does the drug actually kill off all of the trichomonads and the immune response backs off, allowing the reconstructive process to begin OR does the drug moderate the immune response to the trichomonads to the point where the host and parasite live comfortably with each other ever after. After all, it's usually the asymptomatic parents that gave the squabs the disease anyway.

Anyhow, I think it's best to have the drug disseminated through the tissues without too much localized concentration because in high enough doses, it is toxic. Dimetridazole (Emtry) is far worse (there's actually another picture showing a dissected cranium presenting a subdural hemorrhage attributed to Dimetridazole overdose) with respect to overdose tolerance but I still wouldn't want to push it with Metronidazole, especially so near the brain.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

============================


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey,


Ahhhhh...much of this confuses me...

If the auto-immune response is what makes the symptoms sometimes, or some of them, or some of them in some ways, yet local colonizations do in fact 'eat' or destroy or consume tissue or portions of organs they are ajacent to...then...

Are the Organisms themselves consumeing tissues? Or it is the Body's immune-response?

And if the latter, why would there be localized immune responses to areas in which the organism is not significantly present? Or would the immune response which does the harm, somethig which actually does tend to occur in arteas of significant colonization...?

See what I mean?

I always imagine, incorrectly possibly, that the Organisms themselves elect on some basis of their own rationalle, to colonise one area or another, and to consume tissue sometimess as an incidental occupation to pursueing their own interests...at the expense of the Bird or other Host of course...

And that at least some of the medicines, 'Berimax' for one, are said to kill the Organisms, rather than per-se to stimulate an immune response which eliminates them...

Anyway, I do not have much for medical models obviously...

But just wondering, of course...about how DO things 'work'...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996

=====================


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Hello Alice,

Sure looks like a sick pigeon. How are things going right now ? Any improvement ? Are you still taking in more new pigeons ?


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## pdpbison

Hi AZ,


She looks so pretty and gentle...

I sure wish you both the best...and a successful recovery and smoothe Sailing...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996

Thanks, Phil. 

Warren, I PMed you.

~Alice


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the comments about my little "bare" pigeon. It is spunky this morning, but I'm very concerned about what may be going on here. I'll keep up with the canker treatment as well as the supportive care.

I do remember dear little Baby Daisy .. thanks for the reminder, Phil and thanks to Pidgey for the link to the similar case from last year.

Alice, I hope your youngster will be OK.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, as you know, Alice and I have been PMing some on Bubbles. Do you think the air bubble is in any way connected to possible canker? I couldn't see any connection. Also, would it be better to give Bubbles direct oral doses of metronidazole rather than by the flock treatment method?


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## Pidgey

Well, actually the birds are being treated individually due to the fact that the medication form she's got won't suspend in water. So, little Bubbles is being treated individually.

I don't know what to think about the bubbles--someone once told me that bubbles usually mean fermentation which is usually due to yeast. However, Bubbles isn't having a problem with crop stasis or slowdown (thank goodness) so I haven't worried as much about that. I have been concerned that Coccidiosis could be involved.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Well, there are possibly as many as 2 dozen strains of canker that affect pigeons and a range of virulence. Depending on the virulence of the strain and duration of the infection, it's possible for the canker to spread to areas that we don't normally associate w/the disease. It has been documented to invade organs (liver, pancreas,heart,lungs, air sacs) beak, sinuses, eyes, base of the skull, and in raptors, it has also invaded/eaten away at bone structures.

The organism apparently doesn't survive lower than the proventriculous except in Pigeons. Canker can enter the blood stream through the lesions that are sometimes visible through inspection of the mouth, thereby setting up shop and populating/concentrating in other areas of the body. One method of testing uses a cotton swab immersed in distilled water then swabbed around the crop wall. Short of doing lab work, clinical symptoms are frequently used as indicators. 

If a bird were ill enough to have a severe/chronic case, I would think there would be no telling what else it may have and wise to treat for coccidiosis and worms.

fp


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## Pidgey

I think Bubbles is a little too weak right now to treat for worms so we'll let that one slide for a bit. He's only about five to six weeks old besides. We're just taking it day by day right now.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

This might be one of those situations where Bubbles would benefit by a more alternative method regarding worms so as not to stress him/her.

fp


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, my mistake. Went back and checked and Alice did tell me they were being medicated individually once per day. "The memory" is one of the first things to go, you know.


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel said:


> "*The memory" is one of the first things to go, you know*.


I forgot about that!


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## Feefo

HI Pidgey,

I am very confused by the case you described, trichomonads are fragile and infect the digestive tract and associated structures. As fp says, the lesions can invade other organs , but the trichomonads are too fragile to survive outside the environment of the digestive tract and a lesion would not appear spontaneously in another part of the body.

Is it possible that the "spent leucocytes" were the remnants of a reaction to infection? As the white blood cells of pigeons do not have lysosomes they cannot produce pus as mammals do and the localised reaction to infection often looks like canker.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

> A few days ago, there were bubbles in Bubbles' poop as well.


Frothy droppings can be a sign of yeast overgrowth (gas produced during fermentation). Yeast lesions can also be confused with canker.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon

cyro51 said:


> HI Pidgey,
> 
> I am very confused by the case you described, trichomonads are fragile and infect the digestive tract and associated structures. As fp says, the lesions can invade other organs , but the trichomonads are too fragile to survive outside the environment of the digestive tract and a lesion would not appear spontaneously in another part of the body.
> 
> Cynthia


Most of the instances that I've read about that involve invasion of atypical sites were either a highly virulent strain that doesn't need a whole lot of time to overcome the host, or were in the chronically untreated category that developed over time. In the chronic and untreated ones, the lesions themselves sometimes provided a vehicle into the blood stream and in other atypical sites such as the brain, the canker was well entrenched in the head/throat region. My impression was that while a response to the trichomoniasis organism, that the population concentration was in the site where the response was occuring.


fp


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## Pidgey

cyro51 said:


> HI Pidgey,
> 
> I am very confused by the case you described, trichomonads are fragile and infect the digestive tract and associated structures. As fp says, the lesions can invade other organs , but the trichomonads are too fragile to survive outside the environment of the digestive tract and a lesion would not appear spontaneously in another part of the body.
> 
> Is it possible that the "spent leucocytes" were the remnants of a reaction to infection? As the white blood cells of pigeons do not have lysosomes they cannot produce pus as mammals do and the localised reaction to infection often looks like canker.
> 
> Cynthia


I sure don't know what to tell you, Cynthia. The book is rather explicit in that it identifies the lesion as Trichomoniasis. It is fairly near the ear.

In all the references that I've got, Trichomonads are said to have been found routinely in the mouth, oropharynx, esophagus, crop, trachea, pulmonary and hepatic tissues. What I haven't found is any bonafide reference that's stated that the trichomonads have been found migrating to distant parts by way of blood transport. Now, in the case of a lesion, the big question becomes "do the trichomonads surf the necrotizing edge of the lesion"? That is, as the tissues at the boundary of a trichomoniasis lesion devitalize, does the resultant non-viable tissue support the advance of the Trichomonads for a greater penetration into the body into tissues that they're not normally found in?

That's the $64,000 question.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Like other host-equilibrium diseases, the presence itself isn't necessarily considered to be a treatment requisite situation when routinely found.

From what I've read, a couple of mechanisms are involved in that as the necrotic tissue advances, it can 'push' into other adjacent sites.

The advance into the circulatory system seems to be a result of the breakdown of the tissue itself at the base of the lesion. Now whether this is an opening for the existing 'over-population' of the organism in the area to invade, or the organism is 'surfing' on the necrotic tissue.....this is speculative on my part, but if the tissue is necrotic, is the organism going to be found imbedded or surfing there, or would the trichomonad be attracted to viable tissue, ie. new 'frontiers' ? It may just be still 'circling' for a meal on the other tissue around the necrotic debris or perhaps as it takes its 'prisoners' in terms of tissue that enables it to maintain its gaining numbers, it has a 'scorched earth' policy in terms of the caseous deposits.

fp


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## feralpigeon

After browsing through some of my bookmarks, I did find a reference at Vetafarm that states that it is the cheesy deposits themselves that are full of 
trichomonads. 

fp


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## Pidgey

Yeah, I've read that you can find them on those to do a wet mount slide. Cynthia does have a point in that the little buggers are fragile. I've read that when the bird dies, they don't last very long. There's something about not being able to find them anymore after a few hours (maybe a day) postmortem. You usually find them on the slide by way of their motion rather than as a recognizable shape. Have you seen the movie links that Vonda has linked on her webpage?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

cyro51 said:


> Frothy droppings can be a sign of yeast overgrowth (gas produced during fermentation). Yeast lesions can also be confused with canker.
> 
> Cynthia



Yes...

Our beloved "ACV-Water" regimen might be prudent measure at this point, and will be fine to do along with whatever other meds are being given...


If I saw any 'bubbley-poos', Mr. ACV would be to the scene forthwith...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> I sure don't know what to tell you, Cynthia. The book is rather explicit in that it identifies the lesion as Trichomoniasis. It is fairly near the ear.
> 
> In all the references that I've got, Trichomonads are said to have been found routinely in the mouth, oropharynx, esophagus, crop, trachea, pulmonary and hepatic tissues. What I haven't found is any bonafide reference that's stated that the trichomonads have been found migrating to distant parts by way of blood transport. Now, in the case of a lesion, the big question becomes "do the trichomonads surf the necrotizing edge of the lesion"? That is, as the tissues at the boundary of a trichomoniasis lesion devitalize, does the resultant non-viable tissue support the advance of the Trichomonads for a greater penetration into the body into tissues that they're not normally found in?
> 
> That's the $64,000 question.
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgey, all...


While I am weak in Medical Models, my friendly wager on the matter would be....


"They can 'do' just that indeed...and, at least in some occasions, will..."



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

Actually, one of the things that we're looking for BESIDES a detailed disease etiology (especially for the specific presentation that this thread is about) would be the pathogenicity of the organism. I did find this page that describes real testing of T. gallinae against human and other animal erythrocytes (funny that they didn't include pigeon erythrocytes):

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0716-07201999000300001&script=sci_arttext

I know that's a bit on the technical side but the entire first portion is essentially to establish the lab procedures used to make the conclusions. And of those conclusions, these were the ones I found to be the most interesting:

1) For T. gallinae no activity could be detected in culture supernatants suggesting that hemolytic activity was not related to an hemolysin or soluble metabolites released by the parasite. 

2) In our experiments, neither adhesion or agglutination was observed by light microscopy between T. gallinae and erythrocytes at any phase of hemolysis assay, and contact independent hemolytic activity could not be exhibited using supernatant of hemolysis assays, culture medium or sonicated parasite extracts.

3) Although an hemolytic activity of T. gallinae was clearly demonstrated, a relationship between hemolysis and cell pathogenicity is not yet clearly established. 

That, in a nutshell, says we haven't figured out how the doggone things cause actual disease. Centrifugation provides a supernatant fluid that doesn't cause hemolysis (essentially harm and/or destruction) to the erythrocytes (red blood cells)--only the actual buggers do BUT they don't seem to physically latch onto the erythrocytes to kill 'em nor do they gang up on them. It's (at this point) rather like they just shoot 'em with invisible bullets and we ain't figgered out where they buy them bullets!

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

You know, Phil, it's funny...

...a long time ago there was a controversy on the board about whether it was one tablespoon or two of ACV per gallon. Most promoted one, you advised two. And enthusiastically, I might add. Well, if you could only see the new books that I've got--the two volumes entitled CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE by Harrison & Lightfoot, which is the update for the AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION of which many of us are aware and is the single most comprehensive avian veterinary book produced to this point.

Anyhow, this quote's going to knock your socks off:

"Apple cider vinegar is an acidifier of the intestinal tract and entire body. Specific indications for apple cider vinegar (organic, non-pasteurized) include chronic bacterial or yeast infections, chronic diarrhea or foul stools and proventricular dilation disease support. It is dosed at 1 to 2 tablespoons _per 8 ounces of drinking water, as the only water source for 2 weeks_."

Page 349-350, emphasis supplied

Also, it's even shown in the formulary (there are 90 pages of formulary now) at a dose rate of 60 to 120 milliliters per liter of water.

That's way-the-heck-and-gone more than we've ever proposed _and it's published._

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Pidgey

P.S. Shameless Advertising Plug: Buy Your Very Own Copy of CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE here:

http://www.harrisonsbirdfood.com/


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## pdpbison

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks for the comments about my little "bare" pigeon. It is spunky this morning, but I'm very concerned about what may be going on here. I'll keep up with the canker treatment as well as the supportive care.
> 
> I do remember dear little Baby Daisy .. thanks for the reminder, Phil and thanks to Pidgey for the link to the similar case from last year.
> 
> Alice, I hope your youngster will be OK.
> 
> Terry



Hi Terry, 


Well, as you may know, I favor the 'Berimax' for not only any suspected Trichomona mischiefs, but also for occasions of whatever odd or ambiguous presentations...

As with the ACV-Water, even if I alternate them each-each-day or something but in slightly higher than usual strengths.

Lord knows just 'what' we are seeing sometimes...!

And anyway, these seem very good pals to have for such addresses...


Chemical Burns of course could make for quite differing appearances, depending on the kind of Chemical it is...

Yours might also have had some kind of abrasion there from the looks of it, as there seemed to be some fine scabbing...

If it is some order of Canker business, the 'Berimax' is a means I and my various Birds have been very happy with...


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> That, in a nutshell, says we haven't figured out how the doggone things cause actual disease. Centrifugation provides a supernatant fluid that doesn't cause hemolysis (essentially harm and/or destruction) to the erythrocytes (red blood cells)--only the actual buggers do BUT they don't seem to physically latch onto the erythrocytes to kill 'em nor do they gang up on them. It's (at this point) rather like they just shoot 'em with invisible bullets and we ain't figgered out where they buy them bullets!
> 
> Pidgey



I think...

They bite 'em ( the red Blood Cells) , then swim on...like 'Trout' or something who hit the Bait, run off with some of it or spit it out, but did not get the 'Hook'...

Then, when they find some area they do like the taste of, they just gather and bite the hell out of it...have Orgys and festivals and celebrations and so on, and luxuriate in their feasting and gluttanys and surfeits and so on till they ruin the whole thing for everyone.


I think, the little Trichomonas are 'smart' in their own way...intelligent forms of Life, so to speak...and well organized in pursueing their interests and occupations...but short sighted at times...impetuous...laible to excesses of indulgence...


Too bad they make such mischief sometimes...they are on such a different scale, I doubt they concieve of "Bird" in any way at all...or, no more say than anyone does of their own environment's larger context(s)...


...did you ever research 'how' the 'Berimax' works? Vis-a-vie other orders of Medicines, in treating agianst Trichomona problems?


The claims were that it eliminates them entirely, ( well, depending on dosage and duration of dosage, ) rather than to reduce them to a minimal background fauna...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

I've read they can live up to 5 days on certain moist grains, and anywhere from 20 minutes to several hours in water. It does need moisture however to survive.
Also, while anaerobic, it apparently can survive in low oxygen conditions.
Seems like this is another one to add to the list of 'in progress' where studies are concerned.

The places where I've read about it appearing or breaking through onto the skin, well, these cases are pretty well progressed and the bird is let's say well on it's way in the disease so that there are very pronounced visuals/clinical symptoms in addition to its' appearance on the skin itself. Flagyl is effective because it blocks the production of H2 which is produced by components of the organism.

Some of the rule-outs for it would be candida, hypovitaminosis A, capillaria, salivary stones, and bacterial abscesses.

Now Pidgey, it's good to hear that an avian medical book is listing ACV in it as a treatment, remember, 1-2 tbls per gallon is not at a therapeutic level but maintenance rate. I think Phil has always suggested going higher for a treatment regimine. Glad to see the formulary is catching up w/Kaiser .

fp


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## Pidgey

Oh, crap, that's a miniscule fraction of the homeopathy section. You'd pee your pants to read the rest of it.

Pidgey the Non-Wedbetter


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## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> I think...
> 
> Then, when they find some area they do like the taste of, they just gather and bite the hell out of it...have Orgys and festivals and celebrations and so on, and luxuriate in their feasting and gluttanys and surfeits and so on ....
> 
> *Yup, that's when the official/unofficial rehabbers and vets get invited to the party Phil...don't we all have a ball after that!*
> 
> ...did you ever research 'how' the 'Berimax' works? Vis-a-vie other orders of Medicines, in treating agianst Trichomona problems?
> 
> The claims were that it eliminates them entirely, ( well, depending on dosage and duration of dosage, ) rather than to reduce them to a minimal background fauna...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


*Phil, they never would list the active ingredients nor respond to direct inquiries regarding what the herbal composition was. I feel certain that if not Golden Seal, then another herb containing Berberine. At this point, unless capping your own, Gem Trikanox is about the most comparable product that I've been able to track down.

fp*


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## feralpigeon

Pidgey the Wedbetter said:


> Oh, crap, that's a miniscule fraction of the homeopathy section. I peed my pants when I read the rest of it.
> 
> Pidgey the Wedbetter


All I can say is.....Depends....

PS...PT might give them a run for their money


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## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> You know, Phil, it's funny...
> 
> ...a long time ago there was a controversy on the board about whether it was one tablespoon or two of ACV per gallon. Most promoted one, you advised two. And enthusiastically, I might add. Well, if you could only see the new books that I've got--the two volumes entitled CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE by Harrison & Lightfoot, which is the update for the AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION of which many of us are aware and is the single most comprehensive avian veterinary book produced to this point.
> 
> Anyhow, this quote's going to knock your socks off:
> 
> "Apple cider vinegar is an acidifier of the intestinal tract and entire body. Specific indications for apple cider vinegar (organic, non-pasteurized) include chronic bacterial or yeast infections, chronic diarrhea or foul stools and proventricular dilation disease support. It is dosed at 1 to 2 tablespoons _per 8 ounces of drinking water, as the only water source for 2 weeks_."
> 
> Page 349-350, emphasis supplied
> 
> Also, it's even shown in the formulary (there are 90 pages of formulary now) at a dose rate of 60 to 120 milliliters per liter of water.
> 
> That's way-the-heck-and-gone more than we've ever proposed _and it's published._
> 
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
> 
> Pidgey
> 
> P.S. Shameless Advertising Plug: Buy Your Very Own Copy of CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE here:
> 
> http://www.harrisonsbirdfood.com/



Yeeeeeeesh!


I was a-scared of putting them into some sort of Acidosis problems if I went much ( but I would fudge sometimes more toward two-and-a-half, I will confess...) over TWO Tablespoons to-the-Gallon...

Lol...

But I "BELIEVED" in it from trying it at that concentration, and seeing it 'Work', even if my regimen was typically 'only' for six to seven days as their 'only' Water for drinking and formula or both...


Wow, so thay are saying 1 to 2 Tablespoons for 8 Ounces of Water...and, if 128 Ounces to-the-Gallon then this would represent 8 to 16 times the concentration I was recommending...


Eeeee-gads!


Well, hmmmmmm...

I never had one NOT get 'well' from Candida ( Vet confirmed ), Crop Stasis, Sour Crop, or their appearant kin "at" the 2-to-the-Gallon...so...

Golly...

Seems a mite 'stiff' to me, to have then 'Sixteen' Tablespoons to the Gallon! 

Lol...

But, if they are sure it is allrighty, than at least we have additional affirmations suggesting that our worries about much smaller amounts, while prudent, were in fact un-necessary...


I will mix some up to the tune of 'Sixteen' to the Gallon then, and see what it tastes like...I know I will like it! I wold llike it at 64 to the Gallon even I am sure - but to see if anyone else ( you know, the 'Winged' ones) will drink it!

Lol...


Thanks for the great find there Pidgey..!

Good work!

I ( or the process-remedial-regimen) am/are vindicated...!

And THEN some!

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey

pdpbison said:


> Thanks for the great find there Pidgey..!
> 
> Good work!
> 
> I ( or the process-remedial-regimen) am/are vindicated...!
> 
> And THEN some!
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Now, there goes one happy camper.

Well, at least I made one person's day--can't please 'em all, I guess.

Pidgey the Partly Content


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## pdpbison

feralpigeon said:


> *Phil, they never would list the active ingredients nor respond to direct inquiries regarding what the herbal composition was. I feel certain that if not Golden Seal, then another herb containing Berberine. At this point, unless capping your own, Gem Trikanox is about the most comparable product that I've been able to track down.
> 
> fp*


Hi fp, 


I telephoned the U.S. distributor of the 'Gem Trikanox' yesterday, left a nice message for them, and am awaiting a call back, likely this coming week.

I plan to get some of course...it sounds very good.

I think the 'Berimax' is a Citrus derivitive or abstract concentrate, from the Peels, or the Oils in the Peels, or additionally from the Seeds possibly, of Grapefruit...or a blend of that and similar from other Citruses even...but that is my peronsonal taste analysis, and not from anything I recall to have read nor that they would tell me whan I spoke to them.


Of course the 'Bermiax' - as with the 'Trikanox' I am sure also - will kill off or impede the reproductive interests ( you know, the gal-amoebas, trichomonads or other germs and bacterias get the famous 'Headache' and get testy instead of being all wiggles and Coos so on) of a great many non-desireable fauna and many flora, or bacteria or as may be...


It is also, in theory, a VERY good treatment for iffy or biologically contaminated Water if one is in dire need, as in some Natural disasters or other scenarios where the available Water is tainted with sewers having back-flushed and dead creatures bobbing and so on, as well as whatever other run off...

One can add some 'Berimax', to some container of such Water, stirr it up good, and wait a day or less, and then be pretty darned allright to drink it, with impunity...at least on the biological front...aside from chemical pollutants of course...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

pdpbison said:


> It is also, in theory, a VERY good treatment for iffy or biologically contaminated Water if one is in dire need, as in some Natural disasters or other scenarios *where the available Water is tained with sewers back-flushing and dead creatures bobbing and so on*, as well as whatever other run off...
> 
> *One can add some 'Berimax', to some container of such Water*, stirr it up good, and wait a day or less, *and then be pretty darned allright to drink it, with impunity*...at least on the biological front...aside from chemical pollutants of course...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


I'll pass, thank you--I'm trying to quit.


----------



## Pidgey

cyro51 said:


> Frothy droppings can be a sign of yeast overgrowth (gas produced during fermentation). Yeast lesions can also be confused with canker.
> 
> Cynthia


Well, Cynthia, that prompted me to do a search through AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION on bubbles in the feces and it tells about it on page 150 (3rd paragraph, left side of page) and says that it's a sign of true diarrhea which can be caused by "various parasitic, fungal, chlamydial, viral and bacterial infections, systemic diseases and following the administration of some medications."

So, without tests... who knows?

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> I telephoned the U.S. distributor of the 'Gem Trikanox' yesterday, left a nice message for them, and am awaiting a call back, likely this coming week.
> 
> I plan to get some of course...it sounds very good.
> 
> *Here is the breakdown again on the Trikanox:*
> 
> http://www.forestrogers.com/Test-WebGallery/index.htm
> 
> I think the 'Berimax' is a Citrus derivitive or abstract concentrate, from the Peels, or the Oils in the Peels, or additionally from the Seeds possibly, of Grapefruit...or a blend of that and similar from other Citruses even...but that is my peronsonal taste analysis, and not from anything I recall to have read nor that they would tell me whan I spoke to them.
> 
> *Nope, the Citromed was the citrus derivative. Goldenseal is bitter, and also is known for it's 'dying' capabilities and was used as a fabric dye in days gone by in addition to medicinal qualities. I could always recognize Bootsie after I released her, as her white boots turned yellow/gold from the Berimax. Stayed that way for a couple of months, 'course she did have other markings as well. Now check out this link to Goldenseal:*
> 
> http://www.adaptogeno.com/hydrastis_canadensis_ing.htm
> 
> *Scroll down to Vaginal Infections......*
> 
> Of course the 'Bermiax' - as with the 'Trikanox' I am sure also - will kill off or impede the reproductive interests ( you know, the gal-amoebas, trichomonads or other germs and bacterias get the famous 'Headache' and get testy instead of being all wiggles and Coos so on) of a great many non-desireable fauna and many flora, or bacteria or as may be...
> 
> *Gosh, I thought they were guy-amoebas, I'll have to check into that one and get back to ya *
> 
> It is also, in theory, a VERY good treatment for iffy or biologically contaminated Water if one is in dire need, as in some Natural disasters or other scenarios where the available Water is tainted with sewers having back-flushed and dead creatures bobbing and so on, as well as whatever other run off...
> 
> One can add some 'Berimax', to some container of such Water, stirr it up good, and wait a day or less, and then be pretty darned allright to drink it, with impunity...at least on the biological front...aside from chemical pollutants of course...
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


*You know Phil, I'd like to say that I share your enthusiasm, but ya know.....I'm just not "feeling it" so to speak... Guess that's where
different strokes come in. Although, if we're talking Berimax-spiked-sewer- tainted-water, make sure and get some Ivomec, wouldja??  * 

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

Well, if it is yeast, sounds like you won't need to order any Nystatin  

fp


----------



## pdpbison

Hmmmmm...

fp, good mentions there...the Goldenseal would be associated with the 'dye' effects, certainly, while the Citrus derivitives would not...

I wonder if it might be a combination of the two, then..? as I am confident I can taste 'Grapefruit' Peel...


I will hve to get some plain Goldenseal and taste it and see what else I can think of for guessing...


Oh, the 'Oemeba' question...the 'gals' get the you-know, 'headache' and the guy Oemebas sort of offer nice back-rubs or soothing whatever...but the REAL effect...is 'less replicants'...

This is how some of these medicines really work...!

Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> Hmmmmm...
> 
> fp, good mentions there...the Goldenseal would be associated with the 'dye' effects, certainly, while the Citrus derivitives would not...
> 
> I wonder if it might be a combination of the two, then..? as I am confident I can taste 'Grapefruit' Peel...
> 
> 
> I will hve to get some plain Goldenseal and taste it and see what else I can think of for guessing...
> 
> 
> Oh, the 'Oemeba' question...the 'gals' get the you-know, 'headache' and the guy Oemebas sort of offer nice back-rubs or soothing whatever...but the REAL effect...is 'less replicants'...
> 
> This is how some of these medicines really work...!
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Phil, you are correct that there is a bitter aspect of the Berimax, and in fact,
it could be a combination of the two, but it's doubtful we'll know anytime soon. Hope noone thinks that we're just sitting around slurping up the Berimax and holding out on the pijies...

I did my best to get that info, although the fellow did offer that GSE was a comparable if not better substitute for the Citromed. There are other plants that also have Berberine, such as Oregon Grape or Barberry which may be less expensive although Goldenseal is considered one of if not the best source for it.

Yes, many of the alternative products are more inhibitors than pre-emptive AMA 'strikes', although I'm not knocking that either. When you gotta have it, you just gotta have it. It does seem that some of the more recent medicines available emulate the alternative modality by employing an inhibitive effect which can be more forgiving.

fp


----------



## TAWhatley

*Phil / Berimax*

Hi Phil,

Well, thanks to you I do have the Berimax on hand and have had a couple of good successes with it. I haven't tried it on this latest one simply because I'm still not really sure what I'm dealing with .. may give it a whirl starting in a day or two. I'll keep you posted and definitely appreciate your sending me the Berimax! Right now I'm doing my old tried and trues .. Spartrix and Appertex and good supportive care.

Terry


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Terry, 


I am seldom 'sure' what I am dealing with...!

But it is good to have our tried-and-trues to bring out...

Far as I know, the 'Berimax' should be fine no matter what else is being done or adminstered...

And, when mixed with Water as it is supposed to be, for them to drink, or to mix that Water with formula for Babys if need be...it tastes a lot like 'Compari' or other expensive Summer Aperitifs, so...

I have wondered sometimes about various old time 'Bitters'...and if any Science has ever been done to determine their potential efficacy in treating different kinds of non-topical infections or bacterial illness...


Good luck with your little one...!

...and with everyone else there too...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

pdpbison said:


> Yeeeeeeesh!
> 
> 
> I was a-scared of putting them into some sort of Acidosis problems if I went much ( but I would fudge sometimes more toward two-and-a-half, I will confess...) over TWO Tablespoons to-the-Gallon...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> But I "BELIEVED" in it from trying it at that concentration, and seeing it 'Work', even if my regimen was typically 'only' for six to seven days as their 'only' Water for drinking and formula or both...
> 
> 
> Wow, so thay are saying 1 to 2 Tablespoons for 8 Ounces of Water...and, if 128 Ounces to-the-Gallon then this would represent 8 to 16 times the concentration I was recommending...
> 
> 
> Eeeee-gads!
> 
> 
> Well, hmmmmmm...
> 
> I never had one NOT get 'well' from Candida ( Vet confirmed ), Crop Stasis, Sour Crop, or their appearant kin "at" the 2-to-the-Gallon...so...
> 
> Golly...
> 
> Seems a mite 'stiff' to me, to have then 'Sixteen' Tablespoons to the Gallon!
> 
> Lol...
> 
> But, if they are sure it is allrighty, than at least we have additional affirmations suggesting that our worries about much smaller amounts, while prudent, were in fact un-necessary...
> 
> 
> I will mix some up to the tune of 'Sixteen' to the Gallon then, and see what it tastes like...I know I will like it! I wold llike it at 64 to the Gallon even I am sure - but to see if anyone else ( you know, the 'Winged' ones) will drink it!
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the great find there Pidgey..!
> 
> Good work!
> 
> I ( or the process-remedial-regimen) am/are vindicated...!
> 
> And THEN some!
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas



After all that far out commentary on possible things to use, it turns out that good old fashioned ACV is part of the cure. I for one, never paid much attention to those who were afraid that a single tablespoon to the gallon was too much. Common sense would have gotten me past that one. Not that I am advising it, but even an eyedropper of 100% ACV down the throat, is not going to kill a bird.

I sometimes see fanciers looking for exotic illness in their birds, when in fact it's a common situation. The more exotic they imagine, then the more exotic a treatment plan can be devised. I just wonder if it is a status thing ?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi All, 

I suggested the higher doses for ACV myself not too long ago but I guess nobody was in agreement except Phil The problem does lie in whether or not the birds will take or accept the taste. If they can't detect it or are used to it, more is better *I feel* to use, so it ends up being conditioning for the birds. I use just a tad over 2 tablespoons to the galon which works out to be about 10ml to the litre in metric. I use it almost everyday when I'm not putting something else like vitamins, garlic or other things in the water...works out to be about 3-4 days a week of the ACV water, every week.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15560


----------



## Skyeking

Pidgey said:


> Well, if you could only see the new books that I've got--the two volumes entitled CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE by Harrison & Lightfoot
> 
> "Apple cider vinegar is an acidifier of the intestinal tract and entire body. Specific indications for apple cider vinegar (organic, non-pasteurized) include chronic bacterial or yeast infections, chronic diarrhea or foul stools and proventricular dilation disease support. It is dosed at 1 to 2 tablespoons _per 8 ounces of drinking water, as the only water source for 2 weeks_."



WOW, that is news! I have been using t tablespoon per gallon for maintenance because they refuse to drink it if it is stronger.


----------



## Feefo

> So, without tests... who knows?


Exactly!!!! And a vet could probably determine whether there were trichomonads, yeasts, worms etc within minutes under a microscope.

I enjoy speculation and discussion but believe that in this case a vet's visit would be the best immediate course of action.

Cynthia


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

cyro51 said:


> Exactly!!!! And a vet could probably determine whether there were trichomonads, yeasts, worms etc within minutes under a microscope.
> 
> I enjoy speculation and discussion but believe that in this case a vet's visit would be the best immediate course of action.
> 
> Cynthia


 From a legal and medical standpoint you are of course correct. I don't know about the situation with the Jr. member and family finances. But, when I was that age, my parents would not have had the funds to run one of my pigeons to the vet every time one of the birds appeared sick.

The last time I suggested that I bring a 20 bird crate of birds into the Vet's office, she wanted $25 a head, just for a look and see, as a "discounted" price. Not to hard to drop quite a few $100 bills attempting that level of help.

Which 95% of the time, they will simply prescribe some antibotics. 

We may also need to suggest some very low cost methods of treating and keeping the birds healthy. Many young people are working hard, but on a very limited budget. Otherwise everytime there is a sick bird, we simply tell people to take them to a vet. Duh....


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I suggested the higher doses for ACV myself not too long ago but I guess nobody was in agreement except Phil The problem does lie in whether or not the birds will take or accept the taste. If they can't detect it or are used to it, more is better *I feel* to use, so it ends up being conditioning for the birds. I use just a tad over 2 tablespoons to the galon which works out to be about 10ml to the litre in metric. I use it almost everyday when I'm not putting something else like vitamins, garlic or other things in the water...works out to be about 3-4 days a week of the ACV water, every week.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15560


 I know you stole that from me Brad, cause I am sure I thought of it first !..... ......Of course now here it is for the whole world to see....but most people will ignore it anyway becuase it sounds to easy and simple. 

Treesa, if you want your birds to drink a higher %, you can train them to drink it, just like you can train a bird to eat barley. I found when it was there since the day they were hatched, they drink like it is simply normal. I have capped the amount at 4 tablespoons per gallon, since at the time, some people felt for sure that 1 tablespoon was an overdose, and were calling for a teaspoon.


----------



## feralpigeon

Still think there is a difference between a maintenance and medicinal dosing. I do remember here however, that when I first mentioned goldenseal for pigeons,
it was not well received, but that is essentially what the Berimax and Trikanox links that I first posted here are all about. If I had a bird that for one reason or another I didn't want to overload w/meds, I would surely use an alternative healing modality. I think this is something that one needs to use common sense about. If I thought that there was a very severe case of Thrush, I wouldn't go for ACV over Nystatin or a systemic, from personal experience, it's simply not as effective, but I wouldn't hesitate to use concurrently to augment each other.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Money and vet availability are both issues here. This is a rather small town in the big middle of nowhere and the vet is a large animal vet whose basic idea is that pigeons are for dinner. That is to say that this type of vet is primarily engaged in the economic aspect of food livestock--preservation of one's investment in the animals themselves.

We tried however to get in touch with the vet's office to see if a fecal float could be done last week and it wasn't to be. I'm getting the impression that when this vet's out to a farm, there isn't anyone to answer the phone. Licha's never said that to me, it just seems like there's plenty of times that it works that way. We'll just have to ask her to see if that's right.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Yeah, either that or he's got caller ID and is tired of me calling. He doesn't have a cell, either. The cell # that I was given wasn't even his, it was just someone's # who he was with at the time.


----------



## feralpigeon

Maybe you could start the bird on ACV for now without the float, don't see where that could do anything but help? Sure wouldn't hurt.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

He's already been on ACV and she's already begun the higher dose.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. I don't have anything to offer but wondered if UPCD's (Debbie) husband, who is a chemist and did the analysis on Oxine, could do a similar analysis of Berimax.

I have been gradually increasing the ACV from a measly 1 tsp/gal and am now up to 1 1/2 tbsp per gallon and even worried that was too much. So, thanks to our Pidgey, I'll up it to at least 2 1/2 * next time.

Edit: I corrected the 1 1/2 tsp to 1 1/2 tbsp. * Also, I think for right now I'll stick with 1 1/2 tbsp until more info comes in on this.


----------



## Feefo

Pity that this is not something that can be determined by sending poops by post, Pidgey, I know that you have the equipment and the know-how to do a test for trich, the presence of too many yeasts and the development of thrush.

But the main concern about yeasts is the effect of antibiotics if there is already an overgrowth.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

It should be noted that the information that I have relayed still does not elevate the use of ACV to a panacea or the poster-child of the homeopathic/holistic crowd. All of the therapeutic agents in this new formulary are individually noted with various classes of references. Some reference real pharmacokinetic research; some as clinical efficacy trials; some as just a manufacturers recommendation; some as published with reference; some as published without reference; some as extrapolated from other species (each drug line has a place for what kind(s) of birds the medication and dose rate's for); and some are given purely as anecdotal. In other words, while being a comprehensive formulary, many of the entries are given simply because they're being used, irrespective of the proof of efficacy.

That said, proceed at your own risk; and if you do so, question your own motives as to whether you're really trying to heal the bird through the most expedient method or prove some other point, hoping that the bird heals for whatever reason in order to vindicate your beliefs.

A further piece of information: there are two dose rates shown in that formulary, one of which I didn't see--it's shown as 15 milliliters per liter for low grade candidiasis.

The other, higher dose rate previously given is for dysbiosis, candidiasis, Clostridium, GI tract bacteriosis, chronic bacterial diarrhea, Gram-negative infections and foul smelling feces. That's actually two different references and I just listed all the indications together. Both references are shown to be in the class of "published without reference". The lower dose rate shown for low grade candidiasis is "published with reference".

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Lady Tarheel said:


> Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. I don't have anything to offer but wondered if UPCD's (Debbie) husband, who is a chemist and did the analysis on Oxine, could do a similar analysis of Berimax.
> 
> I have been gradually increasing the ACV from a measly 1 tsp/gal and am now up to 1 1/2 tsp per gallon and even worried that was too much. So, thanks to our Pidgey, I'll up it to at least 2 1/2 next time.



Maggie, Dr. Chalmer's recommended the one tablespoon per gallon, and others including reputable folks have recommended 2 tablespoons, I've never heard of 1 teaspoon. So there is a range of one to two tablespoons that seems fine for maintenance. These are maintenance doses, and not medicinal ones. Both of the entries that Pidgey posted are for alternative healing cures for specific health issues. 

I hope that folks don't confuse the two. Take Berberine, for instance, an herb so why worry? It will cause yeast to multiply over extended dosing periods. Because something is 'natural' doesn't mean that no harm can be done, I think we do worry less although, because......??

Pidgey, the homeopathic cures are in a wholly different category than are the herbal cures, might be a whole lot harder to sustain negative impact w/the homeopathic modalities. But I agree that common sense should prevail.
The ACV/Candida dose rate that you posted, is about double the high end (2 tbls per gallon) of the recommended maintenance dose.

fp


----------



## pdpbison

feralpigeon said:


> Still think there is a difference between a maintenance and medicinal dosing. I do remember here however, that when I first mentioned goldenseal for pigeons,
> it was not well received, but that is essentially what the Berimax and Trikanox links that I first posted here are all about. If I had a bird that for one reason or another I didn't want to overload w/meds, I would surely use an alternative healing modality. I think this is something that one needs to use common sense about. If I thought that there was a very severe case of Thrush, I wouldn't go for ACV over Nystatin or a systemic, from personal experience, it's simply not as effective, but I wouldn't hesitate to use concurrently to augment each other.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,


As I understand it, the 'Nystatin' only works 'in' and is isolated to, their digestive tract...which is fine of course...but...


The ACV-Water not only works 'in' their digestive tract, but is also a systemic, acidifying their entire body and it's various systems and circulation to all parts...which is potentially of great advantage when there is more then 'just' some ph-sensitive problems in the digestive tract itself...and, there often are such attending, secondary, or even primary 'problems' too, outside of or beyond the digestive tract proper.

So, I think the ACV-Water is well worth a second look or assay, vis-a-vie 'Nystatin', especially for ambiguous or not clinically demonstrated presentations broadly called 'Thrush' or it's kin...


Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

feralpigeon said:


> So there is a range of one to two tablespoons that seems fine for maintenance. These are maintenance doses, and not medicinal ones. Both of the entries that Pidgey posted are for alternative healing cures for specific health issues.
> 
> 
> fp


Hi FP, thanks for clarifying this....this is good mention. If you were using the ACV for "medicinal" reasons, the amounts that Pidgey mentioned would seem to be for that reason and not for regular/maintanence use.


----------



## pdpbison

Lady Tarheel said:


> Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. I don't have anything to offer but wondered if UPCD's (Debbie) husband, who is a chemist and did the analysis on Oxine, could do a similar analysis of Berimax.
> 
> I have been gradually increasing the ACV from a measly 1 tsp/gal and am now up to 1 1/2 tsp per gallon and even worried that was too much. So, thanks to our Pidgey, I'll up it to at least 2 1/2 next time.



Hi Maggie, 


Should be "Tbsp" ( Tablespoons) not "Tsp" ( Teaspoons ) to-the-Gallon...

Lol...


Love... 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

So anyway...

Respecting the particular Pigeon who shows the unusual presentation of suspected Trichoma infection/infestation/illness...


What regimen is he recieving?


Too, if there is a Trichomona infection 'in' some odd place, which is not continuous with the digestive tract, I doubt Trichomonas will show up in a fecal analysis...even if a high white cell count may show in the urates or something.

I think if it was me, at least from what I gather here about the situation, I would consider to treat with 'Berimax' AND with 'Metronidazole'...while also adminstering some amount of straight ACV into the Crop daily...

If the Bird is eating well on it's own, I would add nutritional suppliments to it's Seeds...

If not, I would add them and the (straight) ACV itself to their 'tube-fed' formula...

If they are drinking allright on their own, of course then the 'Berimax' ( in Water) would be going well...and if they were not drinking on their own, I would give that as the Water their formula is mixed with, and add some extra Berimax-Water even, for a pretty 'soupy' mix ( which one would do anyway, that is, making extra 'soupy' formula mixes, for a Pigeon who is not drinking on their own).

And then see from there how things progress...


I do not know if there is any forthright tests to determine Trichomona infection when it is peculiarly localized outside of the digestive tract's continuity...

Other than, somehow or another, one might suspect it to be 'there' based on prior experience or theory/extrapolation/comparison from study and seeing a similarity as Pidgey has done here, with noted documented cases in published referenecs.


Too, treating for 'Trich' is likely a good thing to do, even if one is not at all sure the Pigeon has it, but when knows the Pigeon has 'something'...while also, of course, trying to isolate the criteria to narrow a diagnosis for specifically treating whatever the Pigeon does have.

Same with the ACV-Water...which I am confident is of several benifits to them, regardless of what they may have, or are being treated for, with other medications or regimens...

Often too of course, they will often 'have' more than one thing going on, with some appearently and or confluent primary symptoms to go on for diagnosis, and this is never enough to guess definitively, what other illness or infections may be progressing either as primary illness not conspicuously noted by symptom-making, or as secondary illness contributing how-ever-so to the syndrome one is trying to evaluate.


Best wishes all..!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Phil,

You might be preaching to the choir here on the benefits of ACV, although I'm not so sure that it does go through out the body as you've mentioned. 

Here's what Dr. Chalmers says about how ACV is used by the system:

_* Apple cider vinegar or just plain vinegar will acidify the contents in the crop and discourage the multiplication of trichomonas organisms. It will, however, not cure pigeons of trichomoniasis. Also, bacteria which do not like an acidic environment such as Salmonella, for example, are discouraged from multiplying in the crop. Acid loving bacteria like the lactobacilli, on the other hand, will find this a hospitable environment and can continue on their way to the colon where they will find favourable conditions for growth and multiplication.

* I am certain that any acid such as vinegar cannot survive its journey into the colon. It can probably pass the stomach but the very basic pancreatic juice emptying into the small intestine will most certainly neutralize it to allow the absorption of the resultant water and acetate.*

Although none of the vinegar ingested arrives in the large intestine how can it possibly then result in the acidification of the colonic contents? The answer lies in its favouring lactobacilli to survive the journey to the colon at the expense of bacteria like Escherichia coli and Salmonella who like a more neutral or basic ph. These lactobacilli will consequently colonize the colon and their metabolic products such as lactic acid are responsible for this observed increase in acidity._

This article by by Dr. Chalmers can be found in its' entirety through this link:

http://www.albertaclassic.net/2005/Vinegar.php

I did go back & check on another old post on ACV, and duh.....that's at least one place where the very low dose is of one to two tsp. per gallon is cited by Chalmers. I do know that many doctors say it's not so much the amount as the 'presence' in general, but in this particular post from Chalmer's he is recommending: 

_" Now, E. coli and paratyphoid organisms much prefer to live and reproduce in slightly alkaline conditions, whereas in a hostile acidic environment, their numbers can drop drastically (in some studies, up to 97%). In promoting the use of such products, where practical, to reduce the heavy reliance on antibiotics to solve health problems in pigeons, I have been advocating not only the use of probiotics and a small amount of apple cider vinegar (5-10 cc per litre, or 1 - 2 teaspoons per US gallon [4 litres] of drinking water, as suggested by Dr Colin Walker of Austalia) to help acidify intestinal contents, and thereby create conditions that are hostile to the survival of E.coli and paratyphoid bacteria."_

Personally, from what I've read in herbal books, classes and what doctors/nurses/practioners have said, 1-2 TBLS per gallon seems just fine. And the low end would be fairly close to what Chalmers is recommending. Now if I had a yeast problem w/a bird, I wouldn't have a problem doubling that for a specific time frame.....I just wouldn't serve it up on a regular basis all of the time. Many natural remedies lose their efficacy for crisis intervention when used full bore on a regular basis. 

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> Would there be any advatage do you think, to a medley of tiny sub-cutaceous injections of medicine in-to the actual localle of the appearent ( or better yet, confirmed ) Trichomona conlonization? if one were gentle and depth-precise enough, and useing a minute Needle?
> 
> Certainly being so close to the Brain, would seem very time-value dangerous...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


I don't know about injections, directly into a site on the surface of the head region, but I did find a link to topical Metronidazole that might have some beneficial effects topically in addition to the systemic treatment:

http://www.rxmedshere.com/without/prescription/Metrogel.shtml

It has other brand names as well.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

This is another great thread and special mentions on ACV.



feralpigeon said:


> Many natural remedies lose their efficacy for crisis intervention when used full bore on a regular basis.
> fp



I have not found that to be the case. I use certain natural remedies that only show results when used over time, almost on a regular basis, like garlic, and medicinal doses have shown even better results. However, Echinacea is one of those you can only use for a few days, and it loses its healing properties. 

Certain medications also lose their effectiveness when used too much, and alternates have to be used.

Once the bird shows no sign or symptom anymore, I lower the dose back to maintenance dose. Moderation is the key, I guess.


----------



## Maggie-NC

pdpbison said:


> Hi Maggie,
> 
> 
> Should be "Tbsp" ( Tablespoons) not "Tsp" ( Teaspoons ) to-the-Gallon...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> Love...
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Phil, thank you so much. I have made the correction.

fp - I could have sworn that I got the 1 tsp from some discussions on the forum.


----------



## feralpigeon

Trees Gray said:


> I have not found that to be the case. I use certain natural remedies that only show results when used over time, almost on a regular basis, like garlic, and medicinal doses have shown even better results. However, Echinacea is one of those you can only use for a few days, and it loses its healing properties.
> 
> Certain medications also lose their effectiveness when used too much, and alternates have to be used.
> 
> Once the bird shows no sign or symptom anymore, I lower the dose back to maintenance dose. Moderation is the key, I guess.


This is what I'm getting at, Teresa, that moderation is the key. In addition to Echinacea needing to be d/c'd, this is also true of Golden Seal and I'm sure there are many more as well. Most herbal and homeopathic cures involve a dose regimine over a specific period of time much the same as regular medicine. I'm not referring to giving alternative supplements w/natural healing benefits off and on over time even if alternated on a regular basis, but rather medicinal doses for a crisis mode and continuing w/that once the crisis is resolved as routine. At some point, _the whole point is to get to a healthy place and maintaining that level._ 

So, if we think about the things that we can give to our pigeons, ACV, garlic,
probiotics, etc., there is a rotational process that most have settled into as opposed to all of the above and beyond, every day of the week. I think that we are coming from the same place on this.....

I think it's best to use alternatives to medications to reduce the need for them as well.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Alice's family's computer is down and she had to PM me from the library. There's been a lot going on (I posted news about Popeye on his own thread) for the family including the death of a chick still in the shell (actually, the shell got a piece broken out and you could see the chick in there but he'd died, no knowing why) and a squab got attacked by an older bird with a bunch of fairly simple wounds. That one's going to make it, but poor Alice is just about to crash because she's been sick herself and everything else that's been going on hasn't allowed her much rest.

Okay, back to the actual bird that this thread was about. The good news is that Bubbles is doing better. He's on a medley of stuff, including the 4-in-1 Furaltadone/Ronidazole powder, the Metronidazole and ACV in a somewhat-stronger-than-our-normal-but-not-the-full dose shown earlier in this thread. He's starting to eat and drink on his own and is generally showing more energy now. The frothy droppings have eased off to only about four to five bubbles now so that one's looking less critical.

We may need to find a rehabber in that area for Alice, though.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi fp,


Yes, I doubt the Acidification would continue past the Stomach...but I do imagine it to in some way permeate the Bird's general system otherwise.


I hope you know I have never recommended or confused the ACV Water as a regimen for treating Trichomona attributed illness, although it would be a nice thing to provide in addition to one's regular recourse.

I do not know how the 'Nystatin' does past the Stomach, if one had concerns about reaching problems in the Intestines...but it might hold up that far, possibly...


Oopse, gotta run...

Love..!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Nystatin (and Amphotericin B, for that matter) works on the cellular membrane of fungi, binding to the ergosterol (the main component of the membrane). It then causes a leak in said membrane and the fungi bleeds out. Mammals (and other animals) don't have that component in their cellular membranes so it has no effect.

I was looking for clinical stuff as to the effects of acidification on the growth of candida and found this, for what it's worth:

http://www.edstrom.com/DocLib/MI4179.pdf

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> Yes, I doubt the Acidification would continue past the Stomach...but I do imagine it to in some way permeate the Bird's general system otherwise.
> 
> 
> I hope you know I have never recommended or confused the ACV Water as a regimen for treating Trichomona attributed illness, although it would be a nice thing to provide in addition to one's regular recourse.
> 
> I do not know how the 'Nystatin' does past the Stomach, if one had concerns about reaching problems in the Intestines...but it might hold up that far, possibly...
> 
> 
> Oopse, gotta run...
> 
> Love..!
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas



Well I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'permeating the bird's general system', but if you mean in general using it's nutritional components, I'm sure this would be so.

The doctor's comments on canker were just part of the whole article and not meant w/any particular specificity, but let's say that someone had a bird w/canker and was waiting for meds to arrive, it would seem reasonable to use a medicinal dosing of ACV to avoid growth in the trichomonad population already present.

Seems like systemics are used for infections extending into the GI tract as opposed to those in the Oropharyngeal region. Fungus does tend to like warm/moist environments to grow in and it can be an uphill battle with Nystatin where the GI tract is involved.

Interestingly, on the topic of _is it possible to have negative effects from prolonged high dosing of ACV, in addition to previous links I've posted here on PT, here is another, this from Dr. Zsolt Talabér: _

http://www.pipay.be/artikelsnew/talaber/apple.htm

While he generously promotes the use of ACV at certain levels one-three times a week, he says of higher concentrations:

"The high quantity of acid absorbs calcium (lime) and removes it from the system, which results in motor and reproductive problems. So overdoses of apple vinegar should be avoided. The dose for 5% apple cider vinegar is 4-8ml per litre of drinking water, 1-3 times a week. If we administer it more regularly, e.g. in prolonged hot weather, we should choose a lower level of concentration."

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FP, 

That was an interesting article you posted. I use the Bragg's ACV and it supposedly is 5% acidity but I guess this could vary depending on which brand one buys. 

According to this persons perspective, giving it everyday has drawbacks or potential problems. This seems a little at odds because people who are on ACV regiments are instructed to drink it every day. I wonder what the difference is between humans and pigeons and why there wouldn't be similar negative effects in people who take too much.


----------



## pdpbison

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> That was an interesting article you posted. I use the Bragg's ACV and it supposedly is 5% acidity but I guess this could vary depending on which brand one buys.
> 
> According to this persons perspective, giving it everyday has drawbacks or potential problems. This seems a little at odds because people who are on ACV regiments are instructed to drink it every day. I wonder what the difference is between humans and pigeons and why there wouldn't be similar negative effects in people who take too much.



Hi Brad,


Might be...

That Pigeons in domesticiy, may have no other liquid recourse than the ACV-Water...



While people, who may drink 'some' ACV-Water each day, may also be drinking Teas, Coffee, Soft drinks, Soups, Fruit Juices, plain Water and so on...to where, the ratio of acidified Water the person gets, is only in a small part of their overall liquid intake...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

pdpbison said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> 
> 
> While people, who may drink 'some' ACV-Water each day, may also be drinking Teas, Coffee, Soft drinks, Soups, Fruit Juices, plain Water and so on...to where, the ratio of acidified Water the person gets, is only in a small part of their overall liquid intake...
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Good thinking Phil I also have to wonder if there was any documentation or research done into what the actual and precise dose for pigeons would be, taking into consideration the weight of the bird and of course how much they drink from a specific water source per day.

Considering that we generally hear anywhere from 1-2 tbsps per galon of water, that is a bit of variance (to a bird). Therefore, and I would think you have to take into consideration the pigeon's weight, how much and how often it's drinking (as an individual) and separately, the temperature/heat factor. This is all still concerning "maintanence doses" of what is best as a preventative.

All of these factors are very important when we think about what is best for medicating our pigeons via drinking water. So considering that there could be potential and possibly negative side effects to giving too much ACV, the subject seems to need further discussion.


----------



## Pidgey

I'm not a chemist and so would have to look it up, but isn't it possible that the acetic acid (the most important ingredient in the ACV or so I've heard) could be neutralized in the presence of calcium-heavy grit in the gizzard?

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Both Dr. Chalmers and Dr. Zsolt Talabér are pigeon enthusiasts, so it would seem reasonable to assume that they are weighing in the constant availability in the loft of grit for their birds. They both are discussing maintenance dosing as opposed to using ACV for a specific ailment in pigeons. Phil has a good point that other liquids are consumed by humans whereas pigeons in captivity are relying solely on what we are giving them.

In the previous situations from this board involving negative aspects to ACV in the diet for pigeon's, one member cited fertility as a problem, and Dr. Zsolt Talabér's comments are citing this as one possible side effect. The other instance was a necropsy that sited acidity in the report. I thought that I'd posted the link to that in your previous thread, Brad, but apparently 
not  . I don't have the time to look for that now, but will try later.

As I was looking for that thread, I came accross a post from Rayn'Judy where Dr. Marx is quoted as recommending 1/4 cup per gallon. Interesting, as the members citing health problems were using this ratio. Now I don't know if this was a typo, or if Dr. Marx really cites this ratio in his book "A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health", I'm sure someone w/this book on the forum could do a quick check. Here's the link to that post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=18255&postcount=11

Now maybe this dose rate was suggested for medicinal purposes and some became confused w/the difference between maintenance and treating a specific problem for a given period of time. So the issue of maintenance vs. medicinal is a good one to have further conversations on, Brad  .

fp


----------



## Pidgey

I was trying to find some online references about diagnostic procedures and problems for trichomoniasis and discovered this one:

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/43/2/1005

It seems that most of the academic papers discuss the simple fact that it can be pretty bad trying to detect trichomonads with wet-mount slide preparations and, I guess, even worse trying to detect _clinical infection_ as there is a difference between the mere presence of and infection by the organism. Anyhow, there are tests that have been developed for the determination of clinical infection (must be a threshold level) for other trichomona species. This is the only one that I've found utilized for T. Gallinae, which is our primary foe. That said, I don't think I've heard mention of this means of diagnosis with any of my vets. I've no idea as to the cost and availability. Maybe, it's something we could look into.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Maybe not so bad--and it's possible that your local large animal vet might be used to them because they were originally created to detect T. foetus in cattle:

http://www.biomed1.com/price_list.htm

Gotta' scroll down near the bottom to see the InPouch TF test kits (the InPouch TV's are at the top--different test kit).

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds

feralpigeon said:


> .
> 
> As I was looking for that thread, I came accross a post from Rayn'Judy where Dr. Marx is quoted as recommending 1/4 cup per gallon. Interesting, as the members citing health problems were using this ratio. Now I don't know if this was a typo, or if Dr. Marx really cites this ratio in his book "A Veterinary Approach to Pigeon Health", I'm sure someone w/this book on the forum could do a quick check.
> 
> fp



I have this book and I've looked and for the life of me I can't find anything in the book about ACV at all. It's possible I overlooked it but I find clorox mentioned a couple of times but not ACV.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FP and all, 

For myself, I tend to think that weight is a factor to be considered when giving anything (supplements, vitamins, or meds) to our birds. I myself, tend to not be so exact with the natural supplements that I use. Also, since my pigeons are easily twice the weight of an average pigeon, I generally give a bit more than what any of the labels/instructions on such things say. 

I've been offering my pigeons approx 2 tablespoons of ACV for quite awhile and about 3-4 days per week. I might reduce this though to perhaps a max of 3 times per week in light of the article you provided, FP.

I also remember reading in the past from people on this forum referencing the 1/4 cup to a galon ratio, but not recently....that is a very high dose and I would think that they would be a "medicating" dose if anything.

We all could also try contacting our vets, find out their opinions on the ACV matter and find out where they get their sources. My vet (although certainly not the greatest) highly endorses the use of ACV and at 8-10 ml/litre or approx 2-2.75 tablespoons to the galon. She also said it was fine to use it every day. I will try to find out where she gets her information on this ratio.


----------



## Pidgey

Some of the stuff that I read indicates that water has varying pH anyhow. You might try getting some pH papers and just checking to see what you're starting with and how different amounts of ACV affect the acidity. By the way, acidity is probably bad if the waterer is galvanized as it might leach zinc into the water, causing chronic zinc toxicosis.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Good thinking Phil I also have to wonder if there was any documentation or research done into what the actual and precise dose for pigeons would be, taking into consideration the weight of the bird and of course how much they drink from a specific water source per day.
> 
> Considering that we generally hear anywhere from 1-2 tbsps per galon of water, that is a bit of variance (to a bird). Therefore, and I would think you have to take into consideration the pigeon's weight, how much and how often it's drinking (as an individual) and separately, the temperature/heat factor. This is all still concerning "maintanence doses" of what is best as a preventative.
> 
> All of these factors are very important when we think about what is best for medicating our pigeons via drinking water. So considering that there could be potential and possibly negative side effects to giving too much ACV, the subject seems to need further discussion.




Hi Brad,


The dosages do seem awefully forgiving, and yet to provide important benificial effects even in the lower end of the dosage range.

I use it of course for Birds who either seem to have Crop interior food-passing Problems, or who are in some way ill-looking, or making wierd poops, along with whatever other medicine may seem appropriate. And this tends to be for say, about a week or so only...and has been at Two or Two-and-a-half Tablespoons to the Gallon.

I do not use it as a frequent maintence thing, although sometimes, everyone gets it for say three days or something, just for the heck of it.

Too, during the warm Seasons here, it may be 104 degrees inside my little abode, and of course much hotter outside. It may be 100 degrees at midnight even...

'My' Birds may well drink twice what they would have if they were in Maine or England or Belgium or other cooler more humid climes...maybe more than 'Twice'...

...so, on that basis, if I provide a mix of say Two Tablespoons of ACV to the Gallon, the effective dose with relation to their Water consuption under 'these' circumstances, probably works out to being like Four Tablespoons to the Gallon...or even more for all I know.

Now, I could pay particular attention to how much Water each Bird drinks, and knowing the percentage of ACV in it, I could come up with some ratio of so-much ACV intake, per Kilo, per Day.

...smaller lighter Birds of course under the same circumstances would drink less than larger heavier ones.

Birds having some intestinal problems might drink five times what their peers do of course...

Active Birds will drink more than sedantary Birds...

And this could be especially important when electing to use a high dosage/percentage of the ACV to Water ration...where, say, an active Bird may drink who knows, 'Twice' what his sedantary peers would in a day...

Or, too, a Bird who also has some intestinal problems, might just drink five or six times what a same weight Bird with no intestinal problems would...

How much of the ACV-Water would 'merely' just get passed with no particular absorbtion, in the soupy or liquidy bowel movements, I do not know...





So, all this is certainly worth weighing in any particular situation...

An Animal's Water loss from simply breathing, will vary a great deal in respect to ambient humidity or aridity of course...and the more activity, the more aspitarions-per-minute, the more Water loss...

Those Animals who perspire, will of course loose even more...in addition.

I would expect problems if one kept a Bird on a medium ACV-Water ratio, ( say, Two or Three to Five Tablespoons to the Gallon ) or a highish ratio, ( Six to Sixteen) for prolongued periods.

Where, my expectation for low doses ( say One Tablespoon to the Gallon) would be that they would be fine with it indeffinitely...but this does deserve something more critical or determined or Sceintific in some way, or deserves deliberate, carefull impirical studies over a long time, somehow, than my naive 'expectation' is based on or provides.

One may wonder also on the potential role some careful percentage might have, deferentially, for Birds ( or anyone) suffering from Calium surfeits or Arthritic or Rhuematoid accumulations or degenerations, but that is overall a pretty complicated business of course...and there are so many elusive factors at play...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon

Just a quickie on the post I was looking for, here it is:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=18831&postcount=10

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Well, we now seem to have everything from "it saved my bird" to "it was killing my birds" so it's a little hard for me to see the way through to one single (and mutally agreed-upon) strategy here with respect to ACV.

Anyhow, I have been in PM contact with Alice, and Bubbles is eating on his own now, preening a lot, giving lots of pijjie kisses and generally has a lot more energy. But, even though he's not in Mexico, he still won't drink the water (too much ACV)!

So, on my orders (and I'll take every bit of the responsibility and blame if need be), she's stopped the ACV, is going to continue the Flagyl until feathers start growing again on the bald spots and is going to continue the 4-in-1 powder through Thursday (one week). I've issued those orders in the possibility that she won't be able to get on again for awhile (she's communicating through the library on a limited basis).

Pidgey


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

*ACV is not a cure all...*



Pidgey said:


> Well, we now seem to have everything from "it saved my bird" to "it was killing my birds" so it's a little hard for me to see the way through to one single (and mutally agreed-upon) strategy here with respect to ACV.
> 
> Anyhow, I have been in PM contact with Alice, and Bubbles is eating on his own now, preening a lot, giving lots of pijjie kisses and generally has a lot more energy. But, even though he's not in Mexico, he still won't drink the water (too much ACV)!
> 
> So, on my orders (and I'll take every bit of the responsibility and blame if need be), she's stopped the ACV, is going to continue the Flagyl until feathers start growing again on the bald spots and is going to continue the 4-in-1 powder through Thursday (one week). I've issued those orders in the possibility that she won't be able to get on again for awhile (she's communicating through the library on a limited basis).
> 
> Pidgey


 Just in case any of my past or current advice seems to conflict. Once your birds are really sick, you need to pull out every tool you have in your box, if that is what it takes to save the bird. You need drugs at this point. If ACV is causing the sick bird not to drink, then by all means suspend the ACV. Especially if ACV is being introduced for the first time.

Then address the cause of canker in the loft. And how to address those conditions down the road. But, in the mean time, let us not neglect the healthy birds in the loft. I hate to see it when the whole loft is neglected in order to divert all focus to the one sick bird. Please let's not neglect them in the process. Their healthy bodies demand ACV !


----------



## Pidgey

Well, she was giving him the water (meds & ACV) the hard way. The rest of the loft was getting medicated on a bird-by-bird basis and all of them were getting it. The couple of birds that demonstrated cheesy growths inside the beak lost those within the first couple of days of the treatment.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

I posted the link at lunch only to complete the links that were previously mentioned regarding possible adverse effects from too high a dose rate on a regular basis. The beneficial effects of ACV for humans as well as pigeons is well known, and I doubt you'd have someone like Chalmers advancing the concept on a whim or fad. So here are two doctors that I've found that do recommend it in a maintenance regimine who also raise and keep pigeons. I am
sure there are others and maybe when I have the time I'll start a file and post the cumulative results. It seems however, that at moderate rates, it promotes good health. What is in question is higher dose rates, how we measure this for our birds.....Brad for instance, who has birds that would make some of the ferals we rehab look like dwarfs. So the point that Brad raised regarding the weight of the bird is very pertinent. Because many doctors I've either read or spoken with on the topic of ACV will say it's not so much the amount as it's presence, perhaps for now, the range of recommended doses is adequate for the purposes of promoting good health. I'm sure, that as Warren said, with a sick bird, no one is about to deny medications and choose instead to treat canker w/ACV. It does seem that some of the higher doses being mentioned shouldn't be used on a regular basis, meaning every day, all of the time. 

I think the heart of the issue becomes, the maintenance dose range given the variation in weight of birds along w/the frequency. And the increase that one might choose on a limited basis for medicinal purposes. It seems to me that the folks that were discussing the problems w/it were using a ratio that I haven't seen recommended here since becoming a member.

Here's a link to one of Chalmers' discussions of Trichomoniasis, as well as a simple slide procedure that he describes:

http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi FP, 

That was a great article you provided, it was very interesting and informative. Talking mostly about canker, it really drove home the point that some exposure is good and that undermedicating or too much medicating could be causing worse sickness in our birds. It's scary to think about all the conflicting information we get and especially in regards to (a not very often discussed idea) of underdosing with meds. However, most of us follow the instructions we are told and it seems like there is a lot of disinformation floating around.

We really need to keep striving to provide the best natural & preventative means to keep our pigeons healthy to begin with. Providing all the proper vitamins, minerals, supplements and good food to give them the means to fight diseases on their own. Prevention rather than curing is always the ultimate goal we all strive for.

I agree with most here in that once a disease has taken hold, whether it be canker, coccidiosis, worms, bacterial infections... medications are usually the only recourse we have. It's important to get the correct diagnosis and know what you're treating for when something makes a pigeon sick. Otherwise, we are contributing to resistant strains of these diseases and dooming our pigeons in the long run.

Currently, I'm in the process of developing a better regiment with the supplements & vitamins as well as modifying what food I offer to my birds. I want to simplify things and streamline them, but also get more and better results. 

I know we all have different techniques and beliefs but it's too bad we couldn't all put our heads together and develop our own, "made on PigeonLife" plan for pigeons that would benefit them the most, keep things simple yet effective and one that we all agreed on. Our ideas are different but I would think that the needs of all pigeons are the same.


----------



## Skyeking

I still think the natural methods are a better recourse, especially if you have an undiagnosed problem going on. My rehabber has had more success in treating pigeons and all birds (ducks, geese, pelicans, sand hill cranes, sea gulls, hawks, lovebirds,parrots, cardinals, etc) & animals, (such as racoons, squirells, bunnies, & turtles) using the natural methods instead of medicines. She maintains that it is far better to treat natural as it allows the birds own immune system to kick in and work effectively and efficiently, while bringing it up to optimum speed. She has had the worst cases also, and some birds near death. 

There are so many birds that need to be treated now for detox, because of the toxic environment they live in, it has become general practice for her to treat, especially water foul, with detox regimen along with regular regimen. 

I believe medications should be used in extreme emergencies, when you are dealing with a whole flock that is sick and worrying about rapid spread of a disease, and with surgery. Medications are used too frequent, too often, and should only be administered in specific quantites, when diagnosis has been made by a compitent avian vet or rehabber. 

Prevention is the key, and that is where you can actually use an arsinal of natural products to prevent major diseases from happening, along with cleaning measures and following some simple rules of isolating new birds. 

Also, the environment to raise pigeons needs to be strictly followed. Large roomy, ventilated coops, rain proof, wind proof, stress proof, predator proof and birds should have access to loads of sunshine! My birds love being outside about 80 % of the time, especially when not sitting on dummy eggs.

I'm currently expanding my aviary and meeting concerns of my aging pigeons, in a stress-free retirement home!


----------



## Pidgey

I guess it depends on your situation. There's a big difference between what you do with an entire loft and what you do as rehabber with a bunch of usually feral sick and injured. And the individual variations of sick birds are endless. What works for this one isn't necessarily going to work for that one. In my loft, I don't given any ACV and I rarely have to worm anybody--just the new birds that demonstrate worm eggs in their fecals. The only illnesses that I typically see are in the immunonaive (young birds) and not all of them. I let the birds free fly on a limited basis (depends on the hawk situation) and the ones that do can occasionally bring something back but that doesn't seem to happen very often. The real "Pidgey" has been out there since late 2000 and she's never had anything but vaccinations and maybe three or four flock treatments for Trich. There's a bunch of other birds out there that are in that same class. I've never, ever, EVER flock treated for worms and have only treated a dozen or so individual birds for them and those were mostly ferals (Debbie the tumbler was given to me by a vet and she came with her infestation). Out in the loft, I have historically had to deal with more injuries than anything else and when you consider the occasional entry of a rehabbed feral, it should theoretically be a recipe for disaster.

Now, if I let them produce a lot of chicks, I'm sure I'd be in more trouble. That's the whole deal about being "immunonaive". There have been two occasions of birds getting oviduct problems (Pattie Cakers and Winter) which is impossible to say how and why.

Anyway, I'm not an overmedicater by any stretch, nor am I deep into... well... giving them anything, really, besides a good diet and clean water. My belief is that if you're a racer, though, your birds are going to drink water on their way back and Heaven-only-knows-where they're going to do it. That's probably going to mandate regular flock treatments for all kinds of things and that's the way it's going to be.

That said, each individual needs to think about their own situation and read and try different things and just do the best that he or she can. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it's going to work for me and vice-versa.

The one and only reason that I started this thread was to reveal a presentation of canker that we've never discussed, to the best of my knowledge. I offered a couple of cases that might support the possibility that this form may present commonly enough to be worth keeping in mind when examining a bird.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, 

Sorry that your thread has gotten off track but I do agree with what you said. It really does depend on everyone's own situation. Some of us are rehabbers, some of us are active racers and some of us just have pet pigeons. Even our individual pigeons themselves require different care to some degree.

Treesa has had wonderful results with her natural regiments and I have no doubt about that by her testimonials and she doesn't (to my knowledge) race her birds. They are just pets in a large outdoor aviary. 

People that rehab pigeons such as yourself, Phil, FP, Terry, Reti, and so many others here tend to get the real "down and out" birds with the worst cases of canker, broken bones, eye problems, horrible wounds etc. Often medicine is the only recourse because you're working against the clock and natural remedies don't often work fast...they need to be given regularly and really only build up over time.

Phil, I meant to thank you for your very well thought out ideas about the ACV and how all the variables fit together. It sure can be complicated when you think about all the different aspects and variables but I think you've really thought it out well. For myself I think I'll stick to the 2 tablespoons to the galon and with a max of 3 days per week. 

Thanks everyone,


----------



## Pidgey

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Sorry that your thread has gotten off track...


Uhh... nobody, and I mean nobody, needs to apologize to me of all people for getting a thread off track, Brad. I'm... uhh... a bit on the guilty side myself.

Pidgey the (little bit "off") Tracker


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Thanks Pidgey for being so forgiving that your thread got so side tracked into an ACV discussion and other things


----------



## Skyeking

I'm a firm believer of innoculations for all birds who are incontact with other birds, and birds within an aviary that are in contact with other birds.

Uh....I have got to make a point here, that Doreen gets the really down and out birds, as well as easy cases. She gets some very seriously ill and injured birds and she does NOT use standard traditional medicines. She stitches, sets bones, and consults with avian vets when necessary. 

...and I do so apologize  for going off subject, myself.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Treesa, 

I have to inquire here....or rather question about the "natural" vs. "unnatural" or medicines. In regards to my own birds, I've been following and using natural source things such as ACV, garlic, probiotics for quite awhile, years in fact. However, those things didn't prevent Henny from getting pneumonia or Eggbert from developing an overgrowth of clostridium bacteria. Worms are another thing that garlic has not been able to prevent in my birds, even with regular doses.

I'm always open to the natural sense approach to keeping birds healthy and I really don't like medicines (GENERALLY), but, with the constant use of these things, why did my birds get sick....it really is hard to comprehend. If they got sick while on these supplements, how can I expect those same things to cure them?

The "natural source" things such as ACV, garlic, probiotics and even synthesized vitamins did nothing to hault or prevent or cure Henny's illness. I will admit, I never tried the sovereign silver or neem oil BUT, I really don't believe in my heart of hearts that this would have made a difference, not at the stage Henny was at. 

I feel that it greatly depends on the severity and length of time a bird has been ill. There are so many variables and factors to consider as with any of these discussions we have about health & "medicine". I personally feel though that holistic "medicine" is not as strong or quick acting as traditional medicine. Please, no disresect to you and I really do have confidence in your treatments/advice but I guess I'm still a little reluctant to go that route when birds are very ill and need treatment fast & powerfully to cure.

Even for myself, if I had a terrible case of bronchial pneumonia, I'm going to get myself to a Dr. to prescribe an antibiotic, rather than try holistic medicine in hopes of it curing me and before I die. There are definite problems and "costs" to weigh with drugs we and animals use, but most of them are/have been proven effective or they get pulled of the market. Again, the key is getting a diagnosis, using the proper dose and not over-using drugs for every little thing that we or our animals get.

JMO and 2 cents on this matter


----------



## Pidgey

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> JMO and 2 cents on this matter


Yeah, Brad, but let's face the facts here--your "2 cents" are Canadian cents and the current exchange rate is about $1.11 Canadian to the American dollar. You need to be giving about 2.22 cents worth to be up to par with our 2 cents worth.

I don't believe there's a one of us (of the rehabbers) who gets it right every time, far from it. When it comes right down to it, birds don't usually get pneumonia for no reason. Right now, you've probably got germs living in _you_ that could cause pneumonia _if you became immunocompromised._ The bottom line in Henny's case is that we still don't know with any real certainty what the true cause was. 

We can make a real good case for the immediate reasons being stress and blood loss coupled together with her weakened condition. But the ultimate reason for that weakened condition, I'm afraid, we will never know. It can be everything from genetic weakness to some nasty germs in your house to... the sky's the limit. My first impression when I re-read your story of getting your runts in the first place was "goodness--he looked through all those birds and bought the best he could find and they were ALL sickly?" I have to wonder at the specific vitality of that breed in that case.

With respect to any of us reporting this medication or that holistic approach, it's never anything more than anecdotal except where we have had proof-positive before-and-after test results to confirm the conclusions. For myself, that limits it to worming, coccidiosis and visible trich. If I get worm eggs consistently in a couple of days of pre-treatment poop samples, I'm pretty sure the bird's got worms. I give it the meds and collect the poops for 48 hours in water and get a bunch of worms out... BINGO! Correct diagnosis and correct treatment (because it worked). Coccidiosis? Almost the same thing although I have to wonder why it showed up in the first place. Trich? The visible lesions go away.

But for all else, if the bird gets better, the correct phrase is "responded to therapy". That's the one out of the veterinary book. Even they, the vets who contributed to that book, include the element of doubt in that subtle turn of phrase. Those folks, by reason of it being their job, get to see a thousand times more than most of us ever will and they know all too well the uncertainties.

As I pointed out earlier, that new two-volume set that I've got does have a large section on holistic and homeopathic cures. I have no idea what all it says or what prompted its inclusion. That section is written by at least one DVM so it should be given some serious consideration.

Consider this, though--the North American Indian tribes had their own medicine men who treated their folks with what we would call "natural remedies". It was actually a horrible blow to them when the European settlers brought diseases that the Indians had never seen before. They were extremely healthy people but still immunonaive against those diseases, both in their bodies and in their knowledge of how to deal with them. 

Life really is just out and out uncertain. And fragile. All we can do is the best we can.

Pidgey


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, Brad, but let's face the facts here--your "2 cents" are Canadian cents and the current exchange rate is about $1.11 Canadian to the American dollar. You need to be giving about 2.22 cents worth to be up to par with our 2 cents worth.


Yep, our dollar is worth less, but SLOWLY creeping up to match yours and getting stronger each and every day to rival the old green back Well, my opinion in $$dollar values then means a lot more than many currencies





Pidgey said:


> When it comes right down to it, birds don't usually get pneumonia for no reason. Right now, you've probably got germs living in _you_ that could cause pneumonia _if you became immunocompromised._ The bottom line in Henny's case is that we still don't know with any real certainty what the true cause was.


This is possibly but highly unlikely, I'm healthier than I've been in years. I haven't been clinically sick in about 2 years and haven't had so much as a cold, flu or otherwise in a long, long time. As well, and as you know...I'm fastidiously clean. I wash my hands each and every time before & after I handle my birds, change clothes each day around them and I NEVER wet kiss them or put my mouth anywhere near theirs. Seeds and grain are NEVER handled with my bare hands and I change my socks upon entering the different sides of the room too



Pidgey said:


> My first impression when I re-read your story of getting your runts in the first place was "goodness--he looked through all those birds and bought the best he could find and they were ALL sickly?" I have to wonder at the specific vitality of that breed in that case.


This I will agree with you to a point. I got both Henny and Eggbert from the same breeder and the conditions that they lived in were ABHORENT, and filthy. But to my own credit, I know how to look for healthy birds as much as any of us can by a quick, 15 minute inspection. The breed itself is a bit more suseptible for sure, and because of characteristics that humans have instilled into them over the millenia...not my fault.




Pidgey said:


> Consider this, though--the North American Indian tribes had their own medicine men who treated their folks with what we would call "natural remedies". It was actually a horrible blow to them when the European settlers brought diseases that the Indians had never seen before. They were extremely healthy people but still immunonaive against those diseases, both in their bodies and in their knowledge of how to deal with them.


Definitely agreed here, but those people spent a millenium as well to "hone" those practices and those "medicine" men of those times learned and developed those skills/techniques over many generations. Not something that has been learned in one or even 1/3 of a generation. There is certainly merit and a potency to natural medicine but we (modern humans in the west) are for the most part, still in our infancy that way.



Pidgey said:


> Life really is just out and out uncertain. And fragile. All we can do is the best we can.
> 
> Pidgey


Again, agreed.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Brad,

I'm sorry if the prevention regimen seemingly didn't work for your birds. You have done so much and more for your birds to maintain their health, so I just don't know or understand....without considering the variables Pidgey mentioned.

My quest to seek optimum health gets me excited and wanting to share, but each person must do what they think is best. I have seen some great results with treating my birds, as well as seeing results of Doreens' rehab birds. I just get excited and want to share.

I come from a family who take charge and control of their health, and we don't like going to doctors except for annual check-ups, blood work, etc. My doctor just keeps telling me to continue to do whatever I am doing, so I do.  

Please excuse me if I seem to go off the deep end from time to time and want to share. It just comes naturally.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, to get completely back on track, I just had an IM session with one of my vets, Dr. Paul Welch (former sitting president of the Association of Avian Veterinarians, www.aav.org, they only sit for a year, by the way), and he said that in order for the trich to get to that area within the skull, the path would be to ulcerate the esophagus and the cervical portion of the cervicocephalic air sac. Then it could track up there. 

That would explain the inexplicable air sac rupture bubble that we saw and named Bubbles for (besides the bubbles in the poop)*. Anyhow, for him to make it back, the treatment came in the bare nick of time and it was the signs in the other birds in the flock that precipitated that. That's one lucky bird if he makes it.

Pidgey

* Correction: After further study, the cervicocephalic air sac is not directly connected to the pulmonary system and is, therefore, not charged with pressurized air. As such, rupture of this particular air sac could not have been the reason for the symptom indicating a ruptured air sac (air trapped under the skin). It is possible that the trichomonads may have ulcerated another portion of the pulmonary system but we'll just never know.


----------



## pdpbison

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> Phil, I meant to thank you for your very well thought out ideas about the ACV and how all the variables fit together. It sure can be complicated when you think about all the different aspects and variables but I think you've really thought it out well. For myself I think I'll stick to the 2 tablespoons to the galon and with a max of 3 days per week.
> 
> Thanks everyone,



Thanks Brad...


Believe me, I have 'paced' the floors plenty...tossed and turned trying to sleep...'plenty'...

Oh!

Pidgey, this will interest you also...

I dug out my BIG BOOK (no, not the 'A.A.' one, the 'Bird' one! ) from storage, and guess what?

I got flooded today!

Which was why I put it in storage quite a while back in the first place! Lol...

Anyway, I will be reading it now in stolen moments...


I gather then there is an updated and revised one now?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> Well, to get completely back on track, I just had an IM session with one of my vets, Dr. Paul Welch (former sitting president of the Association of Avian Veterinarians, www.aav.org, they only sit for a year, by the way), and he said that in order for the trich to get to that area within the skull, the path would be to ulcerate the esophagus and the cervical portion of the cervicocephalic air sac. Then it could track up there.
> 
> That would explain the inexplicable air sac rupture bubble that we saw and named Bubbles for (besides the bubbles in the poop). Anyhow, for him to make it back, the treatment came in the bare nick of time and it was the signs in the other birds in the flock that precipitated that. That's one lucky bird if he makes it.
> 
> Pidgey





Oye...

Makes sense though...and if it can get 'there' I imagine it can get just about anywhere else too.

Although of course Air Sac ruptures do happen from hitting the ground hard, when having fallen from some height...


Little 'Jill' here has one of the most stubborn and worse Cankers I have seen, and it is odd also in how it looked like a little glob of melted 'Cheddar Cheese' instead of what I am used to seeing.

She has been leaning WAY over that 'edge' of doom but still has some footing 'here'...and is beginning now to brighten a little and to peck at small Seeds...she was like a luminous 'Ghost' almost, just standing dreamy and way too 'bright eyed'....and it was too much for her even to move or do anything most of the time, but she insisted to stand and not lay down, which I was glad to see...weighs like a crumpled piece of paper.

Her throat was VERY clogged with it, so much so she was having to drink 'like a Sparrow'...which I have never seen a Pigeon do before...little tiny sips, and raise her head so her Beak would point almost straight up...and hold it, then repeat...

It was hard to see that far down, where the gloggs were which did not want to let the 'tube' pass, but I got a few glimpses...and even the slender 'tube' for feeding her would not pass, so I had to dribble it slowly having got it all the far down I dared...I was afraid of going through some fragile side of her esophagus...

Much less blockage today, got the ( four inch length of No. '10' French, silicone Catheter) actually easily into her Crop this evening...and the Cheddar Cheese glob in her throat is smaller and pale now, looking more dilute...


And who knows 'where' else it was infesting...


Now, for trying to determine if there is reason to suppose it is infesting in their Skull, what does one look for?

Feathers there being a little raised? Or? 

...differing Skin color?



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

pdpbison said:


> I dug out my BIG BOOK (no, not the 'A.A.' one, the 'Bird' one! ) from storage, I gather then there is an updated and revised one now?


Not exactly, the new two-volume set is in addition to, rather than a replacement of, the old book. Some portions have expanded like the formulary. There's a large section on endoscopic examinations of various kinds. There's the holistic/homeopathic section, which is new, and more that I haven't even looked through yet. Mostly, it's a few completely new updates and advancements. Don't throw the old book away, not by a long shot.



pdpbison said:


> Now, for trying to determine if there is reason to suppose it is infesting in their Skull, what does one look for?
> 
> Feathers there being a little raised? Or?
> 
> ...differing Skin color?


The CNS signs of a slightly twisted neck, being a bit "out of it", possibly the beginnings of feather loss around the back of the head and any other symptoms of canker are the signs. The "out of it" bit is actually due to the bird becoming encephalitic.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Alice informed me that Bubbles is eating on his own, drinking on his own and preening plenty but that one of his wings hangs down kinda' loose and he doesn't do much with it. She's pretty certain that he never did anything to hurt it because his very few exploits in the yard were supervised and she just didn't see him have an accident. Anyhow, he doesn't have any joint swellings. 

And, just like Popeye, it's possible that it could be his time to molt. She said that the feather loss is getting more extensive but since his spirits are rather more chipper now (besides the limp wing), I guess we're just going to have to wait and see.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey,



I am very glad to hear of Bubble's feeling one whole heck-of-a-lot better now.


Mine has had some some odd head-twisting and wing-shoulder scrunching ( kinda like Kennedy, in the Zapruder film, right before going behind that 'sign', ) right after being fed, but no other occasions, and this worries me since I do not understand it. I assume it has to do with some nerve discomfort thing in her Throat area, even though I am gentle in how I twirl the lubricated 'tube' to get it 'in'.

When I mentioned it being "four inches" of No. "10" Fr. Catheter, I of course only insert what length is necessary to reach into what I take to be about the upper third or upper mid-point of the Crop's interior, and not the whole length...


Now, the new additional Books, could you kindly refresh our memories on what they are called and where to get them?

I might have a couple Nickles to rub together soon for some Work I have been doing..so..the timeing might be pretty good to get them...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

The "No. 10 Fr" means simply a "10 French". A "French" in this instance is equivalent to 1/3 of a millimeter so it's a 3-1/3 millimeter diameter tube. I found that out when I was looking for a cystoscope that would work for checking crops for abnormalities if warranted.

Those books are entitled CLINICAL AVIAN MEDICINE by Harrison & Lightfoot and can be gotten new for $250 for the pair at:

www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com

I haven't seen evidence of a digital version.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Bubbles made his first attempt to coo on Tuesday. It was really funny. Dumpty had come over to talk to me and Bubbles didn't like it so he ran over to tell Dumpty that I was _his _mama and he wasn't planning on sharing me anytime soon. He tried to coo, gave poor Dumpty a good peck, and pulled out a feather.


----------



## Pidgey

I misplaced the note (sometime over the weekend) but Bubbles is doing a lot better now--even flying! His wing still hangs a little low but it's getting better.

Never a dull moment.

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

ALWAYS GREAT TO HEAR "GOOD" NEWS UPDATES!!  

Keep it up, Bubbles!! Mr. Squeaks (a.k.a. Super Squeaks, the Caped One) is sending his healing "super" powers to help along with his mate's Scorpio Power!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I just took some pictures of Bubbles:


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Great pictures of Bubbles and Humpty, Alice I hope Bubbles continues to do well.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi AZ,


Great images!


Glad to hear AND see how well things are going..!


Good luck!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Well, he's certainly better but he's not out of the woods yet. He hacked up something this morning that's a bit disturbing--a bit of mucous. Don't know if he sneezed it out or coughed it up or whether it came from the crop.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Bubbles was put back out in the loft yesterday. He fought for his perch and has fallen into the loft routine very quickely. I let him out with my YBs today and he circled the loft a couple times! Bubbaloo is a lot smaller than all of my other YBs.  ...but he's certainly doing better-- I'm so very glad he made it!!!

-Licha


----------



## mr squeaks

Great pictures, Licha...love your Cholla!

Great to hear some good updates!


----------



## Skyeking

I love the pictures, and am glad to hear Bubbles is doing well. I'm sure you will be keeping a VERY CLOSE eye on him, as he has been thru alot.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I certainly will be keeping a close eye on him. I didn't want to put him out but he was ready to go and he is really enjoying being out there with the rest of them. I have been keeping him in my room this whole time so... let's just say I miss him.  
I'm glad that you liked the old pictures, I would post a recent one but I dropped my camera a while back and it's broken now.    
Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Bubbles flew for 20 minutes yesterday evening! He loves to fly and every time I let them out he adds time to his flight.  
Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I'll stop worrying about Bubbles, then. That's kinda' been a long haul. Not as long as Popeye, but still pretty rough on the nerves. How're his molting, bald spot and comparative size doing?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

I just went out to compare him to Andrew (the youngest of the other YBs) and he isn't too much smaller!  
His bald spots are still bald.  

Alice


----------



## Pidgey

Well, as long as nothing looks angry-red, black, some other weird color, inflamed and/or is attracting (regular) flies, I think we're okay.

If you're intending on eventually racing Bubbles (hard to do when you've really become emotionally attached), then maybe he'll make a better sprinter (short races) due to his lighter weight. We'll just have to see, though. Sometimes they catch back up.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

The skin color is normal. 
I'm letting Bubbles do what he wants to, I'm not rushing him. It all depends on how he feels about racing. If he wants to, then I'll encourage him, but if not, then that's ok. But he loves to fly so... ...time will tell.


----------



## Pidgey

Incidentally, I took a few swabs from the side of my feral pigeon water pan and examined them microscopically for trichomonas. During this season (summer--the outside temperature rarely goes below 75 deg. F), you can almost always find plenty of them. I also did a procedure where I crop-swabbed a young feral pigeon that a songbird-licensed rehabber passed to me and examined for them. He was positive but I couldn't find them anymore beyond 12 hours after a single dose of Metronidazole (10 milligrams on a 320 gram bird). I was interested to see that the trichomonads were still motile after four hours in the wet-mount slide from a crop swab on a regular Q-Tip that had been pre-wetted with straight tap water. The house thermostat was holding at 78 degrees and I expect that there wasn't much chlorine left in the tap water OR it exchanged with the saliva and other fluids during the crop swab.

Anyhow, when I get some pH test papers of a wider range, I'll start checking to see how ACV affects trichomonads in that same pan of water. I'm not sure that I'll be able to get actual counts so we'll essentially just be looking to see if it seems to make a difference. It might completely wipe them out, don't know--just going to have to see.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking

Pidgey said:


> Incidentally, I took a few swabs from the side of my feral pigeon water pan and examined them microscopically for trichomonas. During this season (summer--the outside temperature rarely goes below 75 deg. F), you can almost always find plenty of them.
> 
> *Great idea!*
> 
> Anyhow, when I get some pH test papers of a wider range, I'll start checking to see how ACV affects trichomonads in that same pan of water. I'm not sure that I'll be able to get actual counts so we'll essentially just be looking to see if it seems to make a difference. It might completely wipe them out, don't know--just going to have to see.


*I'm looking forward to the results.*


----------



## Pidgey

Licha wanted me to post some pictures for her of Bubbles flying so I put them on my webshots account:

http://community.webshots.com/album/552073328tILuJu

Bubbles is flying high and having a great time--so different from when we thought we were going to lose him.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Thank you, Pidgey!!!!!  

Licha


----------



## Pidgey

Trees Gray said:


> *I'm looking forward to the results.*


Yeah, well, it's turning out to be more of a chore than I thought. I tried putting some in last night at the 2 tbsp/gal ratio and then left the pan covered all night. I checked this morning and couldn't find anything moving but it was the same in the control pan, too. That is, I couldn't find anything moving in one not treated either. It might have had something to do with the chilling of the pans overnight putting the trich to sleep. 

But, when I took a closer look at the pan (it's actually a large bath pan that I put out for them to take baths in) I noticed that the acidity was cleaning down to the metal. It's a galvanized pan and the acidity at that dose rate is eating stuff off the pan. What I can't tell you is if it's just affecting the hard-water deposits or if it's actually attacking the galvanize which would be bad. My instinctive reaction is: NEVER acidify drinking water in a galvanized pan. I'm guessing that only stainless or plastic will work for this. 

I did go ahead and put out a much smaller stainless steel pan (1 gallon sized) with the ACV dose rate as mentioned above. We'll see how that does over the next few days but I still need to get a control pan that's the same (I don't have two pans alike).

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Wow!

Great images of Bubbles flying...very nice to see...1


So pidgey, you are doing 'test' pans for Trichonoma survival in out door conditions in Water?


With ACV in some concentration for the one pan, and nothing but Water for the other?

Will you also try regular 'Clorox' Bleach in the same way?


This is interesting...looking forward to the results...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it might be awhile--the test keeps getting screwed up--there was a lot of rain yesterday (I'm actually happy for that) and so that test's a wash. It might rain today as well (I'm still not going to complain--actually hoping it does) so it's probably going to be awhile.

You know, chlorine doesn't stay in the water. It's actually volatile and will either vaporize out or will react into a somewhat more inert ingredient eventually. Also, in the presence of a lot of organic material (poop) the halflife keeps getting shorter.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Bubbles flew without landing for an hour and 50 minutes this morning! Keep going, Buddy, you're not too far behind the others! 
Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Bubbles today...


----------



## TAWhatley

Beautiful photos, Alice! Thank you for sharing with us!

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

TAWhatley said:


> Beautiful photos, Alice!


 Thank you, Terry. 

Licha


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

You mean this one? That's actually more Bubbles than it is me. It _is_ my hand though.

* ~`BUBBLES`~ *


----------



## TAWhatley

Alice,

No worries .. all is fine .. Give Popeye a scritch from me and kisses to all your birds from me. If Popeye will accept a kiss than I'm sending one of those too .. just don't want to be too pushy with Popeye.

Terry


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Ah, Terry, you didn't have to do that. You're so funny, you remind me of a terrible spill that was made in the kitchen but the maid (you) gets the mop and cleans it up so fast that one doesn't even have the time to think about what's happening... and the maid (you) left it so **** 'n span that the next person to walk in the room can't tell a thing happened except by the mop in your hand.   



TAWhatley said:


> Alice,
> 
> No worries .. all is fine .. Give Popeye a scritch from me and kisses to all your birds from me. If Popeye will accept a kiss than I'm sending one of those too .. just don't want to be too pushy with Popeye.
> 
> Terry


 You're in luck, Popeye lets me give him both scritches (if they're around his beak and eyes) and kisses (if they're on his neck).

Licha


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> You mean this one? That's actually more Bubbles than it is me. It _is_ my hand though.
> 
> * ~`BUBBLES`~ *


Hello Alice !  

Bubbles certainly looks a lot better then some early pictures I saw. Your time, effort and attention certainly paid off in this case. Your reports of her flying for nearly two hours also points to the level of her much improved health. 

Good work !


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Alice !
> 
> Bubbles certainly looks a lot better then some early pictures I saw. Your time, effort and attention certainly paid off in this case. Your reports of her flying for nearly two hours also points to the level of her much improved health.
> 
> Good work !


 Thanks, Warren.  You recognize this little girl? I took this picture yesterday, too...


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

*Great Looking Bloodlines !!*



AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Thanks, Warren.  You recognize this little girl? I took this picture yesterday, too...


No...but from what I can see....that is what I would call a Racing Pigeon !!!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, my Bubbles! My precious little Bubbles! How could I ever be so cruel? 
I am sorry, Bubbles! If only I could go back now you would still be here to be loved and cuddled as you used to love. 
The last time-- I kissed you, Bubbles, I told you to come home. You're not here. 
How could I have ever said, "I love you?" How could I when I have left my little bird to the mercies of this vicious world? But I must again, my darling, precious little Bubaloo- I love you. 
Come home, come on your pretty wings and bring with you all of your little playmates.
Oh, Bubbles! I was ever so careful!


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, that hurts. For those of you who don't know, Alice took several birds out on a training run (about a 50-miler) that they had already done several times. Out of seven young birds tossed, only one made it back. Bubbles wasn't the one. And it's been a few weeks now, too.

For myself, I don't race my birds. I'm a rehabber and just don't have the heart. Personally, I don't know if both a racer and a rehabber can exist in the same soul together. Alice has done an awful lot of rehabbing, bless her heart, and this hasn't been easy for her at all.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

As a matter of fact, about all I can think of to say is that my birds love to fly outside the loft and it's almost always dangerous for various reasons ranging from hawks to just plain going too far and getting lost (especially the young ones). On the one hand, flying is what they were made to do and they love it. On the other, freedom is very dangerous. I honestly don't know to tell anyone else how to make that call--but sometimes you have to be willing to face death in order to live, and not all get to live.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

I'll also say that I once did entertain the thought of racing and was working with young birds and then lost a few. I couldn't take it. I'd walk around the neighborhood for days in my spare time, looking on every housetop for just one bird. Somewhere way back, I just decided that I'd be a rehabber and not look back at that decision. Flyers around here have said they needed to "toughen up my heart" but, really, if you can walk through the gates of hell with one of them in dire sickness or injury, how can anyone say your heart isn't tough? And then go and do it again with another? And another? And yet another? And most especially if it's tearing your emotions apart, all the while.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Oh, that hurts. For those of you who don't know, Alice took several birds out on a training run (about a 50-miler) that they had already done several times. Out of seven young birds tossed, only one made it back. Bubbles wasn't the one. And it's been a few weeks now, too.
> 
> For myself, I don't race my birds. I'm a rehabber and just don't have the heart. Personally, I don't know if both a racer and a rehabber can exist in the same soul together. Alice has done an awful lot of rehabbing, bless her heart, and this hasn't been easy for her at all.
> 
> Pidgey


 They hadn't been to that exact spot before, it was only about 3 miles from a spot that they had been. It was more north. Laban and Cooper Girl came home after 5 and 6 hours. I was dumb. I took them back the very next day. _Why?! Why did I do it?!_ I lost my Laban- Laban didn't come back home. Cooper Girl came home the next day. That's it. They're all gone but my poor little Cooper Girl.


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## Pidgey

Well, I guess for that answer, we're going to have to ask Warren or one of the other racers. I don't know the finer points of that kind of thing at all although I have sent birds out to look for lost ones.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996

It was nothing but a "bad spot" unless- oh, Bubbles! The hunters. Back at 20 miles out I let them go on a dirt road. We rounded the bend only about a block away and they were there. Oh..........


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## TAWhatley

Alice,

I'm so sorry your beloved birds haven't made it home. Keep hoping and keep praying!

Terry


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## Skyeking

Alice,

I'm sorry to hear about the birds being lost, I will send up my prayers too.


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