# The grey ringneck dove (mutation)



## Henk69

Hi,

I saw this color of ringneck dove on a market las Sunday:










The dutch call it grijs (gray, grey) or blauw (blue).

The mutation is not covered in the genetic calculator.
http://doves.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0Ring

So how does is it inherit: Dominant, recessive, sexlinked?
And how does it combine with other mutations eg with tangerine?

Thanks in advance


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## Henk69

Never mind. I found the digital book by Hein van Grouw
http://library.wur.nl/ebooks/1888407.pdf


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## Libis

That's a really gorgeous color.


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## MaryOfExeter

Beautiful! Is that silver ivory (ivory, frosty, wild)? Or Frosty?


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## Henk69

MaryOfExeter said:


> Beautiful! Is that silver ivory (ivory, frosty, wild)? Or Frosty?


It is not common in the US. It may be an allele of the Frosty gene.


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## horseart4u

looks like the wild ringnecks we have around here...


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## Libis

horseart4u said:


> looks like the wild ringnecks we have around here...


There are no wild ringnecks. 

The ferals that look like ringnecks are actually Eurasian collared doves. They are slightly larger, and make a different call. In particular, they scream rather than laughing. 

Ringnecks don't have the instincts anymore to become feral.

http://www.diamonddove.info/bird11e Eurasian Collared Dove.htm

It should be noted that there has been Eurasian collared dove mixed into some strains of ringnecks in the US in the hope to make them stronger/healthier/smarter. So sometimes you will find a peculiar bird somewhere between the two species.


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## Print Tippler

Eurasian collard doves are larger, but i dont know about sound, they sounded the same to me when i had my pet ring necks, and had wild eurasians outside. The color was pretty much if not exactly the same from my pets compared to the wild, huge size difference. Eurasian collard doves are the size of a pigeon, or at least my tipplers. They are more pale, not this nice looking grey.


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> Eurasian collard doves are larger, but i dont know about sound, they sounded the same to me when i had my pet ring necks, and had wild eurasians outside. The color was pretty much if not exactly the same from my pets compared to the wild, huge size difference. Eurasian collard doves are the size of a pigeon, or at least my tipplers. They are more pale, not this nice looking grey.


If I remember correctly, the coos are very similar, though of a slightly different rhythm. The ringneck emphasizes the final note in his three beats, while the Eurasian emphasises the middle note. So coo cruuu ROOOO from a ringneck, and coo COOOO coo from a Eurasian. And the ringneck has a more "trilling" voice. 

The defining sound difference is between the scream and the laugh. Ringnecks laugh territorially or when playing with their mate or just because. Eurasian collared doves scream. Neither sound is the same as a coo.


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## Print Tippler

Yeah i dont know, the collard doves i had around definitely laughed. I can remember if there laugh was different than the ringnecks


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> Yeah i dont know, the collard doves i had around definitely laughed. I can remember if there laugh was different than the ringnecks


Hope they're mixes and not pure ringneck.
There are supposedly getting to be more and more mixes bred that people think are "ok" for cheap wedding release etc. since the Eurasians can survive as ferals. (Though I doubt that white ones could...) I've also heard of Eurasians being bred into fawn or wild type ringnecks to theoretically strengthen the line. Maybe some mixes got loose or a few lucky ringnecks found Eurasian buddies? Supposedly the mixes are capable of any of their ancestors' calls.


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## Libis

Here's a good reference with physical differences:

http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/RNECDCompare.htm


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## Print Tippler

What? I had pure ring necks to the best of my knowledge, they were in a loft outside. We were also feeding the wild doves, which were mostly mournings, grounds and white wings. Only had a few eurasians come around. Like you said I guess they were territorial. They were large birds. Pigeon size but when they flew onto a telephone pole they would laugh like my ringnecks. Maybe they were mixed. The person I gave mine to had one he said was wild and was definitely a ringneck. Maybe they can make it out here. I sen a pet store selling either mixes or straight eurasians. It wouldn't surprise me if they were eurasians because you could sell them birds so maybe people trap and sell them. That place was loaded with birds and a small variety of pigeons. Disease infected probably, very poor conditions.


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## Libis

Hey, I was looking for more info, and this says that not only are there feral Eurasians in the US, but also feral African Collared doves (most of what the ringneck is thought to be a domesticated form of.) 

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/pfw/AboutBirdsandFeeding/EucdovRitdovID.htm

So maybe you saw African Collared doves and not Eurasian collared doves?


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> What? I had pure ring necks to the best of my knowledge, they were in a loft outside. We were also feeding the wild doves, which were mostly mournings, grounds and white wings. Only had a few eurasians come around. Like you said I guess they were territorial. They were large birds. Pigeon size but when they flew onto a telephone pole they would laugh like my ringnecks. Maybe they were mixed. The person I gave mine to had one he said was wild and was definitely a ringneck. Maybe they can make it out here. I sen a pet store selling either mixes or straight eurasians. It wouldn't surprise me if they were eurasians because you could sell them birds so maybe people trap and sell them. That place was loaded with birds and a small variety of pigeons. Disease infected probably, very poor conditions.


I didn't mean your pet doves are mixes. I meant maybe you saw some feral hybrids.  Thus the laughing like a ringneck.

And also that if pure ringnecks were loose, it would be bad for them, as they are too domesticated to survive well.


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## Print Tippler

I don't know what color they were. To the best of my memory i though they were the same color as my doves.


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> I don't know what color they were. To the best of my memory i though they were the same color as my doves.


I know it gets really hard to tell between fawn/blond ringneck, and the wild type colors of the Eurasian and African collared doves. 

I think it's really interesting, though, that you had laughing doves who sound like they were surviving in the wild. It makes me want to be all speculative about where they came from and whether they're hybrids or African collared doves. It also makes me want to watch the doves in my yard more closely (I know there are some ferals hanging around--pretty sure they were Eurasians, but I've never seen their tail spikes or heard them coo/scream/laugh/etc.)

Probably the only way to know for sure is side-by-side with a ringneck.


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## Libis

Btw, your birds are gorgeous!  They're the same color as my first dove ever--Edmund.


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## Print Tippler

I guess i will have to wait till next year, But yeah every time they landed on a telephone pole they would laugh. I had just gotten my doves and all i could see was that the wild ones were much larger. i think the laugh was identical just much louder. When they flew they would often glide a little bit. Next year ill have a video. Thanks about the doves. I should have kept them. Oh and your edmunds looks a little more blond in color, but you would probably be able to tell. i had 3 fawns/blond and 1 albino and 2 young squabs fawns.


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## horseart4u

well i was just saying there are alot of these ringneck, collard, eurasian doves around here and they are greyish not that tanish brown..so maybe they are mixes and they are a bit small to medium size..


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## rudolph.est

As a side note, I have 2 ringneck (barbary) dove males that someone (rather inconsiderately) gave me as a birthday gift. They share the loft with my racing pigeons, and have learned to trap, the same way the pigeons do. They also learned to use the trap as a two way entrance, since they are so much smaller than the pigeons.

When I open the loft for the homers, the ring-necks often fly out of the loft and flutter around cooing at the abundant African collared doves and laughing doves in the garden and on the roof. They usually trap as soon as I feed the homers, but some days they will spend the entire day outside, and trap after I get home from work. There are some cats in the neighbourhood as well as dogs in the garden (who try to catch the wild doves all the time), but these two have survived this regimen for months, and have even spent a night outside every now and then. They definitely do not become feral easily, but I believe they would survive and interbreed in a flock of other collared or laughing doves quite easily.


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## Libis

rudolph.est said:


> As a side note, I have 2 ringneck (barbary) dove males that someone (rather inconsiderately) gave me as a birthday gift. They share the loft with my racing pigeons, and have learned to trap, the same way the pigeons do. They also learned to use the trap as a two way entrance, since they are so much smaller than the pigeons.
> 
> When I open the loft for the homers, the ring-necks often fly out of the loft and flutter around cooing at the abundant African collared doves and laughing doves in the garden and on the roof. They usually trap as soon as I feed the homers, but some days they will spend the entire day outside, and trap after I get home from work. There are some cats in the neighbourhood as well as dogs in the garden (who try to catch the wild doves all the time), but these two have survived this regimen for months, and have even spent a night outside every now and then. They definitely do not become feral easily, but I believe they would survive and interbreed in a flock of other collared or laughing doves quite easily.


You're really lucky that they're following the pigeons around and that your pigeons don't pick on them. Oftentimes ringnecks get lost easily and then don't know how to forage. They wind up dead or half starved at a rescue or someone's doorstep fairly often. I don't know, it's nice for you that they are trapping, but I don't believe that they would become feral and continue to survive for as long as other dove species in the wild without some Eurasian blood hybridized into them (which is showing up in purchased ringnecks more often now.) I really think that an increase in Eurasian blood in some families is causing the ringneck to become a smarter/more robust bird.


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## Print Tippler

Libis, more birds can be let out than you think check out this youtube channel. He free flys parakeets, finches, diamond doves, parrots, cockatiels, love birds, crows, and acouple pigeons. Ive seen videos of a trap door and he just lets them out and the finches went out and came right back in. Theres other people who do it also. He also flys portable and lets them out in parks. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/petrollers#p/a


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## MaryOfExeter

I would never intentionally release my ringnecks. I've had a few get out and I was lucky enough to catch most of them before they disappeared.


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> Libis, more birds can be let out than you think check out this youtube channel. He free flys parakeets, finches, diamond doves, parrots, cockatiels, love birds, crows, and acouple pigeons. Ive seen videos of a trap door and he just lets them out and the finches went out and came right back in. Theres other people who do it also. He also flys portable and lets them out in parks.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/petrollers#p/a


I have seen this channel before I think he either has a special gift or fantastic luck. Normally, this is not a great idea, as Mary of Exeter also said. I know many people who have lost cockatiels and budgies in this way as well. This summer a close friend's budgie escaped and they only managed to find her after she had starved to death. She was only 2 houses down the street hidden deep in a bush.  My mother lost the teil that she hand raised when he got out as well. Edmund the ringneck was found lost and starving with several other doves, presumably a misguided wedding release. (He went to the humane society, luckily, then to a friend's house, then to me.)


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## Print Tippler

I have to disagree that is wrong. I think most people who lose pet birds just lose them ignorantly. This person is actually training his birds. It looks like he knows what he is doing. So the fact that people have lost pet birds doesn't make free flying them wrong, otherwise people who fly young homes and let them out and they fly off would make free flying any pigeon also wrong. Sure its not good if you dont know what your doing, but if you train them and know what your doing, Its not any more wrong than letting pigeons out.


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> I have to disagree that is wrong. I think most people who lose pet birds just lose them ignorantly. This person is actually training his birds. It looks like he knows what he is doing. So the fact that people have lost pet birds doesn't make free flying them wrong, otherwise people who fly young homes and let them out and they fly off would make free flying any pigeon also wrong. Sure its not good if you dont know what your doing, but if you train them and know what your doing, Its not any more wrong than letting pigeons out.


Except that (homing) pigeons have exceptional homing ability. Ringnecks have been selectively bred for sacrifice and color (and in the last couple of hundred years conformation for show.) They don't have the instincts that a homer would. Many people on this forum will not even fly show pigeons. Ringnecks are much more domesticated than that. With fantastic training and a lot of luck you might get away with it as that man appears to be doing, but I would never free fly ringnecks or parrots. Especially in this hawk-filled state. 

(Also, we do not know his fatality from predator rate. Here, if I flew finches, parakeets, and doves, most of them would be gone in a month from hawks. Even if I had pigeons, I'd be watching pretty closely whether it was even safe for them.)


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## Libis

Btw,I would consider free-flying crows because they are so smart, savvy, and haven't had their instincts bred out of them. That would be awesome. Ravens (white necked) would be even cooler.


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## rudolph.est

Libis said:


> Except that (homing) pigeons have exceptional homing ability.


 Free flying birds do not need homing ability, just eyes. ;-) It is true that homers will find their way home from hundreds of kilometers, but I obviously don't expect my ringnecks to do the same. All birds have to have an instinct to get to their nests from feeding sites etc, and as such, I believe ALL birds can be free flown, as long as they are trained correctly.



Libis said:


> Ringnecks have been selectively bred for sacrifice and color (and in the last couple of hundred years conformation for show.) They don't have the instincts that a homer would. Many people on this forum will not even fly show pigeons. Ringnecks are much more domesticated than that.


If I am not mistaken, the pigeon was domesticated before the ringneck and for the same reason as ringnecks (sacrifice, food). Pigeons have also been much more strenuously selectively bred than ringnecks. This does not mean that people don't let their starlings and archangels and fantails etc. free fly.

I do agree with your statement about predators, these captive birds did not learn to protect themselves against birds of prey or other predators and would be at a disadvantage if permanently released.


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## Libis

rudolph.est said:


> Free flying birds do not need homing ability, just eyes. ;-) It is true that homers will find their way home from hundreds of kilometers, but I obviously don't expect my ringnecks to do the same. All birds have to have an instinct to get to their nests from feeding sites etc, and as such, I believe ALL birds can be free flown, as long as they are trained correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the pigeon was domesticated before the ringneck and for the same reason as ringnecks (sacrifice, food). Pigeons have also been much more strenuously selectively bred than ringnecks. This does not mean that people don't let their starlings and archangels and fantails etc. free fly.
> 
> I do agree with your statement about predators, these captive birds did not learn to protect themselves against birds of prey or other predators and would be at a disadvantage if permanently released.


I still would not do it with a bird with poor homing capability. The idea seems very irresponsible. 

The first time they get scared by a predator they would flee like they do when they hear a scary noise or see a sudden movement in the house (completely without thinking where they're headed--sometimes they even fly into walls.  ) Once that ringneck (or parrot) gets a certain distance away they are going to have no idea where they are. In most places in the US, hawks are very prevalent. At least here, I know that any birds I free flew would have to know how to avoid predators and how to find home if they fled too far away. Maybe in the UK or somewhere like that you could get away with it better. 
Knowing my birds individually, at least two of them would directly approach any predator and try to "make friends." (As they attempt to do in the house with any living creature.) The others would flee blindly.


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## AZCorbin

When free flying a bird you don't just 'let it out' and hope for the best.
You spend months training it before hand. You also usually start with a hand raised bird. You teach it that it eats only from you and your basket or small cage that you take with you. The guys channel that was link is not 
'lucky" and has no special gifts. He is smart and probably more patient than a lot of folks.


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## Libis

AZCorbin said:


> When free flying a bird you don't just 'let it out' and hope for the best.
> You spend months training it before hand. You also usually start with a hand raised bird. You teach it that it eats only from you and your basket or small cage that you take with you. The guys channel that was link is not
> 'lucky" and has no special gifts. He is smart and probably more patient than a lot of folks.


I am aware of the fact that he trained the birds. *facepalm* He did a good job.

What you're not choosing to listen to here is that these are very flighty birds. They freak out even in the home and bolt. (Even my handraised sweet babies.) *The first time a hawk came around they would scatter and be lost. * Maybe it's just my flock (family of personalities that there can be) but I would not let such birds out if I did not think that they could find their way home from pretty far away.


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## Print Tippler

Libis said:


> *The first time a hawk came around they would scatter and be lost. *


Well, that's certainly your opinion, but its not back up from experience. He said he did finches because now he doesn't have to worry about hawks.


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## Libis

Print Tippler said:


> Well, that's certainly your opinion, but its not back up from experience. He said he did finches because now he doesn't have to worry about hawks.


Ringnecks are not finches. I'm primarily talking about why I do not and will not ever free fly my ringnecks. Also, I've seen the hawks here get sparrows (we don't really have much for local finches.) 

My ringnecks freak out if I move my hand too quickly. A hawk would scatter them. When the cats come too close they bolt too. (Which is best, really. The cats aren't supposed to be anywhere near the birds, but when they work at it for a while sometimes they get into places.)

Btw, this is getting ridiculous. I've said my part and you've said yours. We're at the point where we either will get redundant or start calling eachother names I think. In the end it doesn't matter anyway. I'm not going to free fly ringnecks/budgies/zebra finches and you seem more into pigeons. Plus, we both like the same group of birds so yay.


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## Doves1111

Henk69 said:


> It is not common in the US. It may be an allele of the Frosty gene.


According to the International Dove Society site (it hasn't been updated since 2008?)...the Frosty mutant is not available in Europe yet...and Gray is not known in the US yet.
But how I wish they were...

The Gray does look very similar to the Silver Ivory. Here is some info and pics... 
http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/gray.htm

The Lavender is another European beauty...
http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/lavender.htm

Dawn


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## Doves1111

Henk69 said:


> Never mind. I found the digital book by Hein van Grouw
> http://library.wur.nl/ebooks/1888407.pdf


I wish I could read or translate that...it looks very interesting. 
A lot of pics of the European mutations.


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## Henk69

Doves1111 said:


> According to the International Dove Society site (it hasn't been updated since 2008?)...the Frosty mutant is not available in Europe yet...and Gray is not known in the US yet.
> But how I wish they were...
> 
> The Gray does look very similar to the Silver Ivory. Here is some info and pics...
> http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/gray.htm
> 
> The Lavender is another European beauty...
> http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/RNColorPics/lavender.htm
> 
> Dawn


Having seen the grays myself, they picked some very bad backgrounds for those pictures.


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## Doves1111

I see what you mean...blue and gray backgrounds for a gray bird...


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## Rorschach

Henk69 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I saw this color of ringneck dove on a market las Sunday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dutch call it grijs (gray, grey) or blauw (blue).
> 
> The mutation is not covered in the genetic calculator.
> http://doves.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0Ring
> 
> So how does is it inherit: Dominant, recessive, sexlinked?
> And how does it combine with other mutations eg with tangerine?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Hi,
Grey mutation (gr / / gr) is genetically recessive. 
With the genetic calculator you can use instead the Rosy mutation (ry / / ry). 
The color lavender (Ta / / ta ; gr / / gr ; M) is produced by the interaction of Tangerine with Gray. 
The gray can interact with all the color and the best subjects are pastel (Blond) gray (dB / /_ ; gr / / gr ), pied gray and lavender.


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