# fan tail doves?



## spirit wings

is there such a thing as a fantail dove? I know of the Indian fantail pigeon...but was wondering if there is a smaller version....like a fantail pigeon x a ringneck dove offspring...I was wondering if a male dove could breed with a hen fantail pigeon...or would that even be a good idea? I have read in other threads about doves breeding with pigeons, but did not know if any fantails were used.... trying to see if one could get a dove size fantail...


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## bluecheck

Hate to be the bearer of bad tiding, but so far there has been no mutation in the ringneck dove that would lead to the fantail (at some point there will be, but when and where is a matter of conjecture -- barring any gene input from a scientist in a lab.)

As for crossing a dove X pigeon - won't work. You might and I stress might, get some youngsters, but they would be sterile. Secondly, the fantail when crossed to a non-fantail pigeon usually produces non-fantail young - you will get youngsters with some extra tail feathers and a sort of rounded tail, but nothing like the fantail. Assuming homologous genes in the dove, I'd almost guarantee that you'd get something similar in the F1 youngsters.

What you might be able to do is to breed smaller and smaller fantail pigeons. The fantail itself is actually a fairly small bird. I have seen what they sometimes call dove-cote fantails. These are birds that have been breed for centuries. They're nowhere near as extreme as show fans and usually live on estates where they just fly around to look attractive. The ones I've seen are a bit bigger than show fans, have a tail that somewhat bows but doesn't really have the uprightness of a show bird, nor is it as big or upright as an Indian fan

Sorry to burst a bubble here.


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## spirit wings

no bubble bursted.....I kind of thought that is how it would be,,,,I have seen the non-show type fans....I like them..the tail was held lower but faned out some....I would like to find some for display...the regular fantails I have seen I thought were kind of big....but perhaps I could find a breeder of a smaller type... thanks for the info, it was very interesting.


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## re lee

spirit wings said:


> no bubble bursted.....I kind of thought that is how it would be,,,,I have seen the non-show type fans....I like them..the tail was held lower but faned out some....I would like to find some for display...the regular fantails I have seen I thought were kind of big....but perhaps I could find a breeder of a smaller type... thanks for the info, it was very interesting.


The indian fantail is the largest of the fantails. NOW the american fantail is much smaller then the indian. And it is a rather gentle bird. Now doves white doves Can be displayed also. Diamond doves are rather small doves Perhaps the smallest doves. I do not know if any have bred down to white yet. But If you want small fantails go with the regular american type fantail.


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## jbangelfish

*Frank, I read something interesting*



bluecheck said:


> Hate to be the bearer of bad tiding, but so far there has been no mutation in the ringneck dove that would lead to the fantail (at some point there will be, but when and where is a matter of conjecture -- barring any gene input from a scientist in a lab.)
> 
> As for crossing a dove X pigeon - won't work. You might and I stress might, get some youngsters, but they would be sterile. Secondly, the fantail when crossed to a non-fantail pigeon usually produces non-fantail young - you will get youngsters with some extra tail feathers and a sort of rounded tail, but nothing like the fantail. Assuming homologous genes in the dove, I'd almost guarantee that you'd get something similar in the F1 youngsters.
> 
> What you might be able to do is to breed smaller and smaller fantail pigeons. The fantail itself is actually a fairly small bird. I have seen what they sometimes call dove-cote fantails. These are birds that have been breed for centuries. They're nowhere near as extreme as show fans and usually live on estates where they just fly around to look attractive. The ones I've seen are a bit bigger than show fans, have a tail that somewhat bows but doesn't really have the uprightness of a show bird, nor is it as big or upright as an Indian fan
> 
> Sorry to burst a bubble here.


About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.

I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.

All that said, it would be a very long road to making a fantail dove out of it and if someone wants small fans, they would be better off sticking with pure pigeons and going to a very small breed such as Figuritas. They are roughly dove sized and the standard says 4 to 6 ounces, that is the same as a Ringneck dove. These tiny ones may be hard to find however and it would take many generations to come up with a fantail bird from the cross. Might be an interesting project for someone with a few years to play with something new.

Bill


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## spirit wings

re lee said:


> The indian fantail is the largest of the fantails. NOW the american fantail is much smaller then the indian. And it is a rather gentle bird. Now doves white doves Can be displayed also. Diamond doves are rather small doves Perhaps the smallest doves. I do not know if any have bred down to white yet. But If you want small fantails go with the regular american type fantail.


thats a good idea...i just thought I did not want an american because of the head being so far back and you can't see the face well...but I'm sure there is some that have a more straight upward neck..prob not correct in type, but I like those more..and without the foot feathering also..found this pic of what I have in mind..


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## spirit wings

jbangelfish said:


> About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.
> 
> I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.
> 
> All that said, it would be a very long road to making a fantail dove out of it and if someone wants small fans, they would be better off sticking with pure pigeons and going to a very small breed such as Figuritas. They are roughly dove sized and the standard says 4 to 6 ounces, that is the same as a Ringneck dove. These tiny ones may be hard to find however and it would take many generations to come up with a fantail bird from the cross. Might be an interesting project for someone with a few years to play with something new.
> 
> Bill




cool idea about the figuritas...hum...wheels are turning....I saw some on egg bid the other day and thought it was unusual to see them....it would make sense to stick with pure pigeons...good ideas..


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## MaryOfExeter

spirit wings said:


> thats a good idea...i just thought I did not want an american because of the head being so far back and you can't see the face well...but I'm sure there is some that have a more straight upward neck..prob not correct in type, but I like those more..and without the foot feathering also..found this pic of what I have in mind..


I've seen Indian x American fantail mixes that look like that. American fantails are supposed to be clean-legged but can have a crest on their head, while the Indian must have feathers on their legs and crests. In that picture, it looks like in between the two. My Indians are no where near as big and bulky as the ones bred for show now, because I don't like the way modern show ones look. They do however look like normal Indians, just to a smaller size. Someone said once mine were mixes too, but I think mine just haven't been bred to the updated standards for show  If I could get mine to start raising good again, I'd be glad to send you a pair of youngsters if you'd like 
Here's what mine look like (the white ones): http://maryofexeter249.googlepages.com/indianfantails

Syrian Fantails are an option too, but they have more funnel-like tails and they don't hold them up as high.
But I think out of all of them, you'd probably be best with Garden Fantails. Those are the ones with plain heads and clean legs, but with a fanned tail like the ones in your picture. They're the ones you hear being trained to live in dovecots in people's yards...mostly in England and other parts of Europe. I don't know how big those are though since I've never seen them...just pictures. They are supposed to have a little bit more of a homing ability than a normal fantail though, according to people who have them.


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## spirit wings

MaryOfExeter said:


> I've seen Indian x American fantail mixes that look like that. American fantails are supposed to be clean-legged but can have a crest on their head, while the Indian must have feathers on their legs and crests. In that picture, it looks like in between the two. My Indians are no where near as big and bulky as the ones bred for show now, because I don't like the way modern show ones look. They do however look like normal Indians, just to a smaller size. Someone said once mine were mixes too, but I think mine just haven't been bred to the updated standards for show  If I could get mine to start raising good again, I'd be glad to send you a pair of youngsters if you'd like
> Here's what mine look like (the white ones): http://maryofexeter249.googlepages.com/indianfantails
> 
> Syrian Fantails are an option too, but they have more funnel-like tails and they don't hold them up as high.
> But I think out of all of them, you'd probably be best with Garden Fantails. Those are the ones with plain heads and clean legs, but with a fanned tail like the ones in your picture. They're the ones you hear being trained to live in dovecots in people's yards...mostly in England and other parts of Europe. I don't know how big those are though since I've never seen them...just pictures. They are supposed to have a little bit more of a homing ability than a normal fantail though, according to people who have them.


 I googled image of garden fantail and that is exactly what I had in mind...I did not know they had a name....they seem more petite in stature and I do like the tails not so large....easier to fit in a display cage...do you know anyone that has this type pij?....thanks for the offer of yours they are beautiful...just a little rounder and huskier than what I have in mind.... I'm learning alot here about these beautiful birds. thanks so much!


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## MaryOfExeter

I went on a frantic search for Thailand fantails a couple months ago, so I ended up reading and learning a lot about all the different types of fantails. Never actually found any Thai breeders though 
I'm looking for anyone with garden fantails, but all I'm finding is a few here and there on UK pigeon forums like this one. I'll keep looking though.
If I'm not mistaken...I think one of our members, Becca, has Garden Fantails? Either that or she might have asked about them once. She might be able to help you as well.


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## Lovebirds

Isn't there a new breed of fantasy fantails that are smaller then the normal ones? I thought I had seen them on Eggbid before........could be wrong.


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## MaryOfExeter

All I remember hearing about Fantasies were the silky ones


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## bigislerollers

Here is a link to someone who raises fantasies.

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/pegasus_nfs/


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## Msfreebird

Lovebirds said:


> Isn't there a new breed of fantasy fantails that are smaller then the normal ones? I thought I had seen them on Eggbid before........could be wrong.


I was going to mention the "Fantasy's" also. I saw some on Eggbid a week or 2 ago.


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## maryjane

jbangelfish said:


> About breeding pigeons and doves together. Most of us have seen the ones that come from a female pigeon and male dove cross and these are all males and sterile. I wasn't sure but I'd never seen a female and wondered why.
> 
> *I read that if you breed a female dove to a male pigeon that both sexes are produced and that not all hens are barren. I found this to be very interesting and even fascininating.*
> 
> Bill


I don't know if you read that in one of my posts, Bill, but if so it's the other way around. I had a male pigeon and female dove hatch only males. My female pigeon and male dove hatched one of each, and the female even lays eggs, which don't seem to be fertile. Of course that's just my personal experiences. A fantail dove sure would look cool.


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## jbangelfish

*Hi Maryjane*



maryjane said:


> I don't know if you read that in one of my posts, Bill, but if so it's the other way around. I had a male pigeon and female dove hatch only males. My female pigeon and male dove hatched one of each, and the female even lays eggs, which don't seem to be fertile. Of course that's just my personal experiences. A fantail dove sure would look cool.


I remember this discussion. Can you post the pictures of the hybrids again? 

I'm going from memory on what I read and I'm pretty sure that I have it as it was written but of course, I could have mixed it up. It's just that the standard way of making hybrids was using pigeons hens and cock doves and we've had some discussions about the young all being sterile males. That's why I was surprised to read of different results when reversing the sexes of the two breeds. I'll see if I can find the article so I can refresh my memory.

As you say, a fantail dove would look very cool but making them from pigeons would be a near impossible task that would take forever. Making fantails smaller by using a small breed of pigeon would be alot easier and actually sounds like a fun project.

Bill


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## re lee

First american fantails can not have a crest As this 1 is a fault 2 probably is a cross from and indian fantail. ANY fantail that is let to fly very much will get a funnnel tail. The fantail has been developed To set its head in the pocket of the base of the tail. And is bred to do so. BUT you do raise birds that do not set the pocket. Which most often are eliminated. Also as you breed the birds You want tail size. So finding leeser birds At swap meets and such you will find birds that do not set the pocket well have smaller less full tails. In breed cross Say first year you would get a bird with say 16 to 19 tail feathers Slightly spread but flat. Second year you would get a bird with say 22 to 26 tail feathers more raised tailMore spread. Also thease birds would carry there head and neck more upright second year birds may have a slight shake neck. Garden fantails Are not a breed but just say back yard fantail that have notr been bred towards the standard. NOW syrian fantail crossed over to american fantail BOOM you have what you want But not a real little bird BUT small yes. Smaller tail not as full slioghtly flatter. So I think this would be where to go to get your fantail type. That you are desiring. American type fatails in the recent years have moved more to the smaller bird. NOw that the smaller bird can represent the points needed to compete. As the stand call for a bird to be about 6 inches tall from the floor to the top of the chest. round like a ball. Then as much top tail that the bird can handle. sephrims As I have seen them I think would not help you in reducing and build a much smaller fantail I think breeding and keeping the smallest cocks and smallest hens Would be the way to go. As breed cross I think would most be useable only for color type abilty. Where you want white Then look for birds that have less shoeing feather on the tail And have small size. Then Yes maybe syrian over american type to get the head set you desire. BUT Thats My 2 cents On this matter.


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## MaryOfExeter

Somewhere I read Americans can have crests, but I just looked at the standard and that's wrong. Hmm...


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## maryjane

Sure Bill, here they are:


(First pair, black male feral pigeon and ringneck female dove were their parents)











And these guys have a ringneck male dove as dad and a red/white 1/4 king, 1/4 ? and 1/2 feral pigeon mom:



















I always love discussing hybrids. My male dove's pigeon-wife took another mate while the dove was inside with me the last month or so (the corner of his cage inside the aviary came unsnapped and a pigeon pecked his head). But now the dove is back outside in his own aviary with four other small and/or beakless pigeons, so I might stick his original pigeon mate back in with him. She sure listens when he coos (the aviaries are next to each other). And when he hears her he goes crazy. So might be time for a reunion and her new pigeon mate can find a new lady.


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## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Isn't there a new breed of fantasy fantails that are smaller then the normal ones? I thought I had seen them on Eggbid before........could be wrong.


here's the birds I was talking about.

http://www.eggbid.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=1213562389


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## spirit wings

wow...pretty bird..the length of the wing go all the way to the tip of the tail..they would make a pretty display bird in white...interesting, first I've heard of them...


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## george simon

*There are at least 4 fan tail types American,Indian,Syrian, and Thai the Thai fan tail is very close to the indian fantail. The Syrian is intresting as it is a flyer, there two sub types one is a stright flying bird while the other is a tumbler they are the Hindi and the Karakand variety. The Hindi does not tumble ,the Karakand is the tumbler.both have tails with 28 to36 feathers these tails are not the pop up type.. GEORGE*


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## jbangelfish

*Hi Maryjane*



maryjane said:


> Sure Bill, here they are:
> 
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> (First pair, black male feral pigeon and ringneck female dove were their parents)
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> And these guys have a ringneck male dove as dad and a red/white 1/4 king, 1/4 ? and 1/2 feral pigeon mom:
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> I always love discussing hybrids. My male dove's pigeon-wife took another mate while the dove was inside with me the last month or so (the corner of his cage inside the aviary came unsnapped and a pigeon pecked his head). But now the dove is back outside in his own aviary with four other small and/or beakless pigeons, so I might stick his original pigeon mate back in with him. She sure listens when he coos (the aviaries are next to each other). And when he hears her he goes crazy. So might be time for a reunion and her new pigeon mate can find a new lady.


Thanks for reposting them. The two in the top pic are obvious hybrids but the squeakers in the bottom two pics look to be all pigeon. Aren't these the two that you had said one was female and laid eggs? The pattern and the appearance are all wrong for pigeon dove hybrid birds. I don't think it's possible to get the checker pattern but that's not all of it. 

I'm just wondering what makes you say that those two are hybrids. Please don't take offense, just would be happy to discuss the situation and get your take on it. Thanks,

Bill


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## maryjane

jbangelfish said:


> Thanks for reposting them. The two in the top pic are obvious hybrids but the squeakers in the bottom two pics look to be all pigeon. Aren't these the two that you had said one was female and laid eggs? The pattern and the appearance are all wrong for pigeon dove hybrid birds. I don't think it's possible to get the checker pattern but that's not all of it.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes you say that those two are hybrids. *Please don't take offense, just would be happy to discuss the situation and get your take on it. *Thanks,
> 
> Bill


Not at all, Bill. The dove and pigeon were in a big cage together inside the aviary itself. So there was no other way the eggs could have been fertilized other than by the dove. I did switch the eggs with a foster parent pair and out of the four eggs produced (two hybrid eggs given to pigeon parents, two pigeon eggs given to dove/pigeon parents), only three hatched. I wasn't positive at first that the two pictured are the hybrids, but the third possibility looked even more "pigeony", especially compared to the two. 

They are grown now and smaller than the other pigeons, with sleeker heads, and neither one actually coos at all. Occasionally they will make a grunting/coo sound but never anything more. The male does grunt while he bows up and down, like male doves bow up and down, and makes almost a laughing sound as doves do, but it is more like "grunt-grunt-grunt-grunt-
grunt". My first hybrids made a grunting/warbly sound that was similar to a sick duck lol. "Whaa-woooonk." Mom comes from a very stout/ round-pigeon-line, as well as some King mixed in, and Dad is of course a ring neck dove. I agree completely, if the parents weren't in the cage together I would think they were pure pigeons too. But they can't be.   They look more like pigeons but definitely have those dove characteristics in behavior. So who knows lol.


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## jbangelfish

*well, I'm surprised*



maryjane said:


> Not at all, Bill. The dove and pigeon were in a big cage together inside the aviary itself. So there was no other way the eggs could have been fertilized other than by the dove. I did switch the eggs with a foster parent pair and out of the four eggs produced (two hybrid eggs given to pigeon parents, two pigeon eggs given to dove/pigeon parents), only three hatched. I wasn't positive at first that the two pictured are the hybrids, but the third possibility looked even more "pigeony", especially compared to the two.
> 
> They are grown now and smaller than the other pigeons, with sleeker heads, and neither one actually coos at all. Occasionally they will make a grunting/coo sound but never anything more. The male does grunt while he bows up and down, like male doves bow up and down, and makes almost a laughing sound as doves do, but it is more like "grunt-grunt-grunt-grunt-
> grunt". My first hybrids made a grunting/warbly sound that was similar to a sick duck lol. "Whaa-woooonk." Mom comes from a very stout/ round-pigeon-line, as well as some King mixed in, and Dad is of course a ring neck dove. I agree completely, if the parents weren't in the cage together I would think they were pure pigeons too. But they can't be.   They look more like pigeons but definitely have those dove characteristics in behavior. So who knows lol.


Do you have adult pictures of them? From your description of behavior and sounds and all, they do sound like hybrids. If there were no other birds with them, I don't see how you can be wrong but I've certainly never seen any that look like that. Very surprising to me. I would love to see some adult pics.
Thanks again Maryjane, very interesting pair.

Bill


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## spirit wings

Well I came across this pic on the web that said these were fantail pigeon and ringneck dove hybreds, thought I'd post it for those of you that were interested, I guess that answers my oringinal question, althought Im not thrilled with the looks of these birds. I wish they used white birds.


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## jbangelfish

*Interesting*

And probably right about what they are saying. You can see that the tail is larger than normal and these look like hybrids.

Bill


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