# need help with suspected PMV feral



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

This is the one i've had for about10 days, i found grounded, couldnt fly, and diarrhea all over. I've posted about him on my NEW ARRIVALS thread. He was the one that showed PMV and i had in a box NEXT to the one i've been posting about suspected PMV. Didnt know PMV at first though.
He's been on doxy for about 5-6 days, because he originally had a lot of junk in nose. I noticed today he was croaking while breathing, kind of like wheezing but a croaking sound, with each breath, wasnt like this this morning. I lloked him over, more gunk in nose, i pressed on cere to puch it out, and this brownish booger stuff came out, well, when that was gone just more and more clearish liquid was being pushed out. Not "croaking/wheezing" anymore, shouldnt the doxy have/be taking care of this? Also, something else, which i thought measnt infection but thought doxy would care for it but since he still has boogers, dont know. Right wherew the cere ends, the face side, he is bald in two spots, directly where the sinus runs to. Each side is only 1-2 BBs in size, but right in the middle is a few tiny feathers. I'll post pic later, wanted to get this up ASAP, what should i do?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

nope, sorry, still "wheezing," actually, it sounds more like a slight snore then anything.
Help this poor guy! PMV symptoms are the slight head tremor, head UP, not all the way back yet, crash landing, cant fly, he only crash lands when he tries to fly from my hand, over controls when walking, he stumbles and walks a bit backwards when walking, diarrhea. Half of his tail feathers are cracked off, looks like diarrhea dried on and rotted them off, or he landed on them too much and the diarrhea is just there.
Question, its not safe to bathe him considering he has some kind of cold, right? What about regular PMV, can you bathe them?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you're just trying to clean the feathers off, then use a wetted rag. Real bathing probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, it seems like that other one a few weeks ago had a snotty nose and died pretty quick, probably due to an upper respiratory problem. What you need to try and determine is if the sound is coming from the actual head or whether it's coming from the trachea. You see, the nostrils at the ceres go into the sinuses in the head and then open into the choanal slit in the top beak. When the beak is open, air doesn't even go through the sinuses--it's going to go straight into the beak, through to the glottis (that opening down there behind the tongue) and then down the trachea (the airway down the neck) and into the lungs and air sacs. 

If you continue to hear a wheezing or snoring noise when the bird's beak is open, that means you've got a dangerous buildup of phlegm somewhere down that airway. About the only hope of clearing that is with moisture, and that's usually done in a steamy bathroom or with a nebulizer. It's a very serious condition in birds due to the narrowness of the trachea and the overall length--just a little bit of obstruction is too much.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, does this guy have free access to all the water he can drink?

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Pidgey, yep, has access to water, but NEVER seen him drink or attempt to drink, being tube fed. This isnt PMV #2 with string injury, which DID have open beak breathing a few nights ago, when i was on the phone with you about it, this is the PMV#1, that i got about 10 days ago, i think you got that, but to clear any confusion up here for anyone else. Darn, i should just start naming the buggers!
This guy had the snoring sound with beak closed, no open beak breathing. He doesnt eat, i tube feed, doesnt try to eat, just SITS there all day. Very spaced out looking, does get riled up when i'm near, but not NEARLY as much as a well pigeon, he puffs up and walks backwards a bit then usually stumbles.
I put them to bed for the night, i'm going to bed, but will post pic in the morning of missing feather spot, the 2 spots, one above each section of nostril, above cere, are so small i didnt think much of it at first, but now i think maybe it is something?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

hmmm, if he needs a nebulizer, i've got one of those things where you put water in it and put your face up to it and it steams the water onto the face, you know, facial girlie thing. never use it, was gonna toss it, but wonder if that could be put next to his box and used like a nebulizer? Or humidifier? I mean, steamy shower would work, but you will be limited by hot water and such. What do you think?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't know what kind of thing you're talking about. Does it make warm steam, hot steam or what? Give a model name and number. If it puts out humidity and it's not going to cook the bird then go for it.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> This guy had the snoring sound with beak closed


Can you work out whether he makes the noise breathing in, breathing out or both?

Is it constant or worse at night?

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

http://www.target.com/dp/B00005A9WP
Pidgey, it is something like this, but the older, 80's model, so it's just on and off, not high and low. Couldnt even find a pic or link to the one i have. Same idea though. Think i got it from my sister. 
Ok, just went in and got a little crafty. The plastic part of that sauna comes off, the part you put your face against, and you are left with the bottom portion with off and on button, and a little metal well where you put the water and it heats it and steams it. I cut a portion of his box away, turned the sauna on, and used tinfoil to make a path for the steam into the side of his box, covered the top of box with a towel, is that ok?
Weighed him, on a food kitchen scale, so it's give or take, 280 grams. His temp, took it twice, brand new thermometer, gives right temp for me, his was 105.9 and 106.3. Poops, he is being tube fed too, the poops are a sea green color, go to this link for example of the color
http://www.pitt.edu/~nisg/cis/web/cgi/rgb.html

go down to the greens, there is two see greens, the one titled "Dark sea green" is his poops, the one that starts with capital "D."
should of just taken a pic, but i cleaned the box before thinking of that!
getting pics ready, hold on...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cynthia, I tried to count his respiration rate, and i couldn't even see or feel his breathing, i think he is breathing so shallow, it's impossible for me to tell whether it's in or out. I looked for anything in throat, nope, nothing there. I did notice different positions he was in, or while i was handling him, made it better or worse, but that's to be expected i guess.
I can only leave the sauna on while I'm home, and i have to go in every 5 minutes to add water. How long at a time, and how often should i be doing this sauna? Should i add anything in the water to be steamed? Like if we would use Vick's to clear us up, what is the pigeon equivalent of that?
here's the link to the pics, last 2 pics, each side has a bald spot like that, i tried straight on but didn't turn out, but you get the drift....
http://public.fotki.com/xxscribblerxx/pigeons/


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

Don't add anything to the vapour unless you are certain that it is recommended for pigeons. So many things are harmless to us are toxic to pigeons.

I found your photographs very instructive!

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We only treated Unie for about 30 minutes at a whack. After her first one, she hacked up the ball of phlegm and started breathing a lot better. In her case, the obstructive mass of the stuff was down in the airways somewhere.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Pidgey, it is in the airways, because when i open the beask it still makes that noise, the wheezing/snoring sound, and i noticed earlier, when he was doing that, the beak was open just slightly, not much at all, but open and still doing it. He doesnt do it all the time though?
Started another steam for him, i'll do it as much as i can, been gone the last few hours. Yes, i remember that about Unie, did you actually SEE her cough it up?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, I actually watched her hawk up the loogey and fire it at the vet's fax machine. It was a wonderful sight, actually, as her breathing steadied out immediately. It's kinda' like the croup in us, although that's typically a childhood condition for which they used to give expectorants.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

*Bad news...*

Bad news, i found a hard lump to the left of his spine, in the crop area, there is no puncture wound, so it's not a mass from that. It is either a tumor, or a canker mass, and it is pressing on his airway, that is what is causing wheezing. I will start flagyl in case of canker, otherwise, if it's a tumor there is nothing to be done but wait for him to die. I was REALLY attached, i mean, AM really attached to this guy, i'm already talking like he's dead, but i guess hope isnt lost? Please hope it is canker!
I already talked to Pidgey about this, and where it is, it's the size of a grape, by the way, and very hard. I felt my healthy pigeons to compare, and there is NOTHING remotely like that in my healthy pigeons. 
Please hope for the best, and anyone that has dealt with this, let me know, or something like this?
Oh my, Andrew Zimmerman is eating pigeon on his bizzare foods show right now, gross, he is so gross, ick!  He's laughing about getting revenge on pigeons pooping on him, and there is still feather attached to his pigeon steak!  
I hope he's EATING pigeon poo right now!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If it is in an area where canker develops then the odds are that it is canker, as that is more common than tumours.

Do what you can for him and keep positive. 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Bad news, i found a hard lump to the left of his spine, in the crop area, there is no puncture wound, so it's not a mass from that. It is either a tumor, or a canker mass, and it is pressing on his airway, that is what is causing wheezing. I will start flagyl in case of canker, otherwise, if it's a tumor there is nothing to be done but wait for him to die. I was REALLY attached, i mean, AM really attached to this guy, i'm already talking like he's dead, but i guess hope isnt lost? Please hope it is canker!
> Please hope for the best, and anyone that has dealt with this, let me know, or something like this?


Hope is NEVER lost, and please do give him the Flagyl. Any idea of how old he is?
If this a young bird, I can't imagine a tumor growing that fast, we will pray for the best outcome.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Hmm, how young, he seems young, but not old!  
He has white on his ceres, but not very much, so i think he's a younger fella. I dont know, how else can i tell his age? It is very big, the size of a grape, and not a tiny grape either. I can feel it and move the growth a bit, but it is very hard. The wheezing is worse today, it really seems this thing is pressing on airpipe. I looked and looked for a puncture wound, HOPING there was one, hoping it was a plug that needed to be pulled out, couldnt find one. Should i pluck the feathers to look better, or just wet them? I doubt its a puncture wound, looked pretty good, but i know all too well how hidden things like that are. Ok, where it is, is a weird spot, it's down his neck, following the "S" curve of the neck, it would be, from a side view, well, follow this link and see my crude diagram. The last 3 pics are of his growth area and my diagram. Sorry, it is very unexact, but the diagram WITH the pics will give you all a better idea:

http://public.fotki.com/xxscribblerxx/pigeons/

I can feel the growth from the back of his neck, and the front of neck. It is in crop area, but the size of a grape to the left of spine, i mean, VERY close to the left of spine. Is that where the airpipe is?
Let me know if you need any more info, pics, etc. His temperature is between 104-106 degrees, since last night it's been between those. 
What else could this be? He also has some spots on skin where the growth is underneath where it is slightly discolored.
I hope it's canker, and i hope i can save him, i'm AWFULLY attached to this one, i mean, i've slept with him on my belly, he will sit in my hand peacefully a lot of the time, i'm guessing he was very chilled out about all that because of how sick he is, but i dont care if he gets better and is a wild boy again, i just want him better!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, hate to say it but that bald spot looks like it's on the base of the shoulder. In other words, it looks more like the beginning of some kind of Paratyphoid boil that might be in the shoulder joint instead of the elbow. That happens, albeit very rarely. You need to feel real closely on that swelling that you're describing and see if it's partially attached to some part of the shoulder. If so, then you need to get that bird started on Baytril pretty quickly.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Pidgey, it moves, the growth, i can move it side to side, etc, so does that mean it ISNT attached? Should i just start baytril AND flagyl?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Raina,

Just a word of caution, if you suspect that this lump is canker then be very careful about handling it and be very, very gentle and keep the pigeon very secure when you tube feed, because the nodule can become dislodged and cause a fatal bleed. This happened to me some years ago when a pigeon that I was tube feeding struggled.

Canker affects the feather follicles and is often associated with bald spots, these are usually around the beak and neck area so could account for the original two although not for the patch on the back.

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

update on this bird, the wheezing has stopped, last time i posted, the 28th, that morning the wheezing was sooo bad, had been that bad all night, thought i would find him dead when i got home. I had started him on baytril the night before, and flagyl about 24 hours before. That day, at 3 pm, came home, wheezing stopped, i was skeptical that it was temporary, well, he STILL hasn't wheezed! And i SWEAR the lump has gotten smaller, well, it HAD to get smaller to not be pressing on his airsac anymore. Thats the GOOD news, the bad news, i DO think he has PMV, since i started both flagyl and baytril, i dont KNOW which did the trick of the growth, or whether it was canker or paratyphoid, so the best i can do is keep him on the meds for a shorter time. A lot of times, with PMV, the PMV can cause other things to happen, like canker and paratyphoid, correct? I think thats what happened. 
I noticed when i am really still and he isnt in his "alert" mode, i see the PMV symptoms more, I see the seed tossing, the twisting of neck, missing seed, when he pecks me he misses or overcontrols, his head goes to look straight up, he cant fly, crash lands when he tries from my hand, overcontrols when walking/running from me, and ends up stumbling/falling over, and does have the head tremors, especially when excited, like when i bring my hand close to his face too fast.
Sound like PMV? Maybe it is paratyphoid and the PMV like symptoms?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

PMV is more common in birds than paratyphoid and since their immune system is weakened other ailments can coexist. Sounds like the lump was/is canker, so keep on doing what you're doing and I am sure he will recover.

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

uh oh, when he first stopped wheezing, i was hesitant to post about it too soon, in case the wheezing started again. Well, posted about it, and now he is wheezing again! I dont know what is going on, or what to do here, i guess just see if it stops again today or soon?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, when i left last night, no wheezing, the growth does seem to have shrunken, even just a little bit. The groth will move up and down a little, and side to side, still is very rock hard. Also, when i feel it, sometimes if i feel around it or accidently move it up and down, i feel and hear a squishy sound, cant be the growth itself, because of how hard it is, or maybe it is? Well, either i am feeling liquid in his airsac, liquid in his crop, squish around. Is the airsac in that spot or not? Also, Pidgey thought it COULD be a canker that started in crop and made a sort of fistula, or tracked a hole OUTSIDE the crop, i can almost feel a little thread like piece connecting it towards something near the spin more. The thing really is right next to spine, but when i was feeling it, i swear i could feel the fistula like thing.
What could the squishing be? I tried to see if i could move it a bit to take pressure off the breathing, maybe that would of explained the wheezing stopping and starting again? Didnt work, and am afraid to move it much. 
What could the squishing be? He's on baytril, flagyl, and should be just about done with doxycycline, Should i keep him on doxycycline or not?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Never seen anything quite like it. A fistua is a tract that goes all the way to the outside, though.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, well, what exactly is in that spot Pidgey? Is the airsac there? Or part of it? Could the squishing be the crop? How far up and down and side to side does the crop go?
Darn, i really am curious as to what the heck is going on here! He's a sweet guy, maybe just cause he's so sick, and the PMV, but he's sweet nonetheless...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, I've never seen a decent drawing of a pigeon's crop. They mostly sit right down on their chests, just forward of the point of the keel and on either side. They'll usually hold about a golfball's worth or more and have two basic lobes, one to the right of the vertebral column and the other to the left. If you stretch the neck out straight up (or they do it when they stand up very straight), it's really only in the bottom half as measured from the chin to the keel. Above that, it's just esophagus.

I've no idea what would cause a squishy sound. I can speculate till the cows come home but I don't think it'd be worth much. As a matter of practicality, we're not going to be able to go in and get it in the near future, so either he'll get better and it'll go away or it'll stay where it is. Since he's a PMV bird, he probably can't be released anyhow and so maybe when and if he finds a "forever" home, he can get a trip to the vet in the process and they can determine what to do at that time.

For kicks and giggles at the moment, you can try to "transilluminate" the thing by getting a very strong but small flashlight and pushing it up to the skin in that area. Normally, light flows through flesh fairly well just like your hand glows red when you cover a lit flashlight with it. When a foreign body (or necrotic mass that the body is pumping full of calcium to render it harmless) is transilluminated, it's dark. So, if you transilluminate the area and this thing makes a big black spot, then it might be likely that it's the beginning of a rock that the body's making. I don't know how tumors respond but this thing got smaller anyhow so that's probably not a worry.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Pidgey, gotta get a different flashlight tomorrow, i've got a bigger maglight, didnt work for that. So, a small and powerful one? I would think it couldnt get any more powerful then the maglight?
Still wheezing, still squishy. It has only gotten slightly smaller in general.
You know, i've THOGHT about taking him to the wildlife center, as they are supposedly very good about not PTS, but am hesitant, i still dont know what happened to the goose and pigeon i took there in September! They said the newsletter should be here soon, and if it wasnt here in a month, call again! ANOTHER MONTH!?! They said that my information, and the animals information, goes in two different directions until it meets up again to be put in newsletter, doesnt make sense, does it? I think they said that because i keep asking them to just look it up and TELL ME! They say they are understaffed, well, in SEPTEMBER they said during the SUMMER they were VERY busy, due to more animals coming in, so they couldnt answer my phone inquiries, well, it is WINTER now! SOO aggravating!
Anyways, he has PMV, which would mean PTS there, i am sure of it...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, it's just better to keep them to yourself except where the rehabbers are definitely vouched for by one of us.

The MiniMag lights are pretty good, especially if you screw off the top and put the light bulb right up to them.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, update, the wheezing stopped again, it was super bad, stopped last night and through today. The growth is same size, it isnt a circle, it is a weird shape, like an oval with bumps and more sharp corner like things. The weird thing, i still hear/feel the squishy sound, the thing really feels right on/in or by crop, so i started thinking he might have something IN the crop, i can move the thing more, i mean, like an inch up or down, and i can actually move it from the left of spine to the right of spine, doing this, i DO feel something that attaches growth to either the spine, airtube or a spot in crop right at spine. Now, i know not to be moving it around like crazy, but i did think it was important to keep feeling size, and thats when i felt the squishiness, and figured out today it moves much more then i thought, I think at times it moves to a spot and presses on airsac, hence the wheezing, and maybe it moves more now because of meds, or maybe just because i moved it a little, i tried a bit more, and a bit more, because i was being too cautious to move it too much at first. I DO feel a piece of fleshy something, short in length and width, that attaches it to that area, like an umbilical cord attaches a baby to you in stomach, same thing. So the fleshy thing attaching it is small in comparison to the size of actual growth.
What is this? I am just going CRAZY wondering what the HECK is going on here!


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