# Weight Loss and Slimy Poop



## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Mieke is 10 years old and for the past few weeks, she has been gradually losing weight and becoming weaker. She wasn't eating with her usual enthusiasm and her poops were slimy and very wet. She started limping a bit and was unable to fly so I brought her inside and hand-fed small seeds and Kaytee Exact when she didn't feel up to eating. It's really scarey when a normally feisty bird is so weak that she stays wherever you put her!

Based upon the symptoms, it seems she has a virus, possibly Adeno-Coli syndrome, a combination of an Adeno or Circo virus and E. coli bacteria. Blood work confirmed a high white blood count, so she was put on Baytril from 5/28 through 6/17. She was given an Appertex on 5/24. She threw up on 6/7 but otherwise has kept the food down. She's had supplemental heat since I brought her in.

On 6/14 she was down to 193 gms (from her normal 303 gms), but was starting to eat again and fought the syringe, so I reduced feedings. By 6/16, her poops were normal and she had regained enough strength to fly up to a perch.

By 6/18, she was up to 230 gms, but hasn't made any progress for several days and her poops are smaller and fewer than before.

Is this typical recovery for a virus? Do I start up syringe feeding again or let her be? Any suggestions for other support to offer her? Thanks in advance!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, first off....it's good she has responded somewhat to treatment and meds. Does she seem stronger and more alert ?

If she is not eating enough on her own, I might be inclined to so some seed of veggie-popping to supplement (or wet parrot pellets)...maybe add one meal of that a day and see how she responds. It certainly wouldn't hurt (as long as it's done right).....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Teri,

I'm so sorry that Mieke has been having such a tough time of it. I, too, think I would be giving at least one supplemental feeding a day to see if the weight will pick up again. 

As to Mieke's responses to the treatment being typical for a virus, I really don't know.

Wish I could be of more help.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi TerriB,

I'm so sorry to hear your Mieke is not feeling well, I know how precious she is and I can imagine how you feel, as I would be sick with worry if it was my Mieke, who is so dear to me.

I can't help with the information, other then to just give her the best supportive care, as you are doing. I would do the seed pops, as suggested, as it is less invasive and less stressful on the grown up birds then the syringe. I would do a couple of sittings of at least a tablespoon of seed. You could add a drop of Neem oil to them also. I would just continue the supportive stuff, like garlic cap (if her stomach isn't upset anymore), and colloidal silver, ACV in the water.

Please keep us updated on how she is doing, and I will say a little prayer for her.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your treatment plan sounds very good, treating for coccidiosis, supplying heat, treating w/Baytril for the possible ecoli infection and giving the bird
supplemental feedings. If Mieke has gotten enough strength back to fight the syringe, then switch to placing solid food in the back of the mouth. I prefer a good quality puppy chow because of the well rounded dietary formula w/appropriate sized kibble, lightly soaked and drained. A comment on the sizing, for a sick bird, using too small a pellet or kibble will require more attempts to feed which is upsetting to a sick bird. I use my baby finger to push the kibble to the back of the throat, i.e., nothing sharp. I would feed the bird about 2/3's of what would be considered a normally full cropor or stop sooner if Meike displays discomfort, and if Mieke still isn't doing a great job of self feeding, I'd do two supplemental feedings am/pm while leaving seeds and water available all the time. You will see in time how well Mieke starts to become interested in food again. Here's a link to the puppy chow I use, it works very well, though it's about high protein when they are sick and whatever is available to you locally that is good quality will work:

http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/store/organix/organix_puppy_formula

Clean Meike's living area and feeding utensils with 1/2 cup of bleach to a gallon of water and I'd wash my hands w/the same to ensure that I didn't "cross pollinate" to the other birds. Similarly, an outer protective piece of clothing that is used to keep your clothing from being a 'carrier', you know the drill....and care for Meike after caring for the other birds may also be helpful.

Also consider keeping Meike separate from other birds for several months to
ensure that Meike isn't shedding any of the viruses or bacterial infections
that she comes down with right now.

A couple of other treatments I would add to the current routine, is Metronidazole for canker as this, like coccidia is a disease of opportunity and
this would sure be a good time for Trich to set up shop. Vitamins and immune
system boosters would also be good supplements for Meike over the next few months.

If this indeed is Circovirus or what is referred to as Columbid Circovirus,
researchers believe that it suppresses the immune system to the point that
the pigeon contracts other viruses and systemic bacterial infections. Quoting
from Clinical Avian Medicine authored by Harrison and Lightfoot:

"A circovirus infection also has been documented in
pigeons. Unlike the disease seen in psittacine birds, it is
not usually associated with abnormal feathering. Signs
are rarely specific, and birds generally have other diseases
as well. Chlamydophila, mycoplasma, adenovirus
and herpesvirus infections and systemic bacterial infections
have all been described in pigeons with circovirus
infection."

The formulary in Clinical Avian Medicine (B rating or from clinical studies) shows a treatment plan of Interferon, Omega for 90 days as a "limited effectiveness therapy".

Hope this helps you and Meike,

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for all the responses!

Jaye, she does seem stronger over the past few days. I now risk being attacked by buzz-saw beak and wicked wing-wack if I don’t remove her from the cage before refreshing her food and water. 

Terry, I don’t know how you deal with the volume of animals you do – nursing this one is wearing!

Treesa, thanks for the suggestions. I’ll try them as her digestion seems to permit.

Fp, super information – thanks! I’ve got small kibble for our dogs, so that’s an easy addition. Good reminder regarding biosecurity - didn’t realize I should keep her separate for several months! Any idea how frequently it’s safe to treat for Trich? I treated with Ron-Sec (Ronidazole-Secnidazole) on 6/10 & 6/12 because she was throwing up the larger seeds. All the birds get vitamins 3x/wk and probiotics twice a week. What other immune system boosters might be helpful? So it sounds like give supportive care and be alert for any opportunistic virus or bacteria. Did you see any mention of mortality rates?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Fp, super information – thanks! I’ve got small kibble for our dogs, so that’s an easy addition. Good reminder regarding biosecurity - didn’t realize I should keep her separate for several months! Any idea how frequently it’s safe to treat for Trich? I treated with Ron-Sec (Ronidazole-Secnidazole) on 6/10 & 6/12 because she was throwing up the larger seeds. All the birds get vitamins 3x/wk and probiotics twice a week. What other immune system boosters might be helpful? So it sounds like give supportive care and be alert for any opportunistic virus or bacteria. Did you see any mention of mortality rates?


Hi TerriB, 

I need to have a look at CAM and scan throughout for the answer to your
question. I would think that Meike would have an easier time of it because 
of the sheltered nature of her life. I'm thinking that it would be more in the 
realm of things that lurk dormantly in the pigeon's system and rear their heads when a pigeon is compromised. I'm assuming that you keep Baytril on
hand and if not I can send you some oral 10% w/no problem....I have a litre.

I will put some more time into these questions tomorrow and see what I can
come up w/for you!

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> ...I'm thinking that it would be more in the
> realm of things that lurk dormantly in the pigeon's system and rear their heads when a pigeon is compromised. I'm assuming that you keep Baytril on
> hand and if not I can send you some oral 10% w/no problem....I have a litre.
> 
> ...


That makes sense based on her age and history of chronic infection of the egg canal. Thanks for the Baytril offer - she just finished 15 days of Baytril last week. Had a vet appointment today and started her on Albon (E. coli) and Itraconazole (fungus). I also gave her a feeding of Exact this afternoon to help restart her weight gain.

Thanks for checking your resources!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's a link to a supplement from Medpet that is geared toward pigeons
with compromised immune systems, especially "(Circo virus, Adeno virus (Young Bird Diarrhoea) and Paramyxo virus)":

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?cat...+C+(ascorbic+acid)&no=1172&searchpath=7529956

I use this and like so many other Medpet products, I think they are safe and effective.

fp


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks, I just ordered that.

Her weight has started down again - 212 gms this morning. I gave her a supplemental feeding of Exact yesterday and this morning found she had thrown up some Exact and some peas. The peas had been in her crop long enough to absorb some water - they were twice the size of the dried ones. I tried a smaller feeding this afternoon (5 ccs) with some Probios in it to see if she'll keep that down.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,

Sorry to hear your little one is not doing too well.

I went through a bad episode of GI stasis with a bird a few years ago. Mine also started to go very light and the bird was doing what yours is doing, throwing up the Kaytee I was supplementing, along with the pigeon mix the bird was still eating some of. The bird, a male, eventually went down to 214 grams despite my very best efforts.

The problem, at least with mine, was a catch 22 situation, when I mixed the Kaytee up to the consistency it should be, to give proper nourishment, the bird just would not keep his food down. When I thinned it out to a consistency, sort of like a melted milkshake, he would almost always keep most of this down. The problem was there was not enough calories in his feedings at the thinness he seemed to need to keep the tube feedings down.

What I did that turned it around for him was I removed all the seeds from his hospital cage, as it seemed along with the Kaytee he just did not like the way they felt in his digestive system and I stopped giving him any Kaytee at all as well. Plus, after regurgitating his crop contents he always looked so very exhausted and ever so much more weak.

I moved him to a vegetarian based baby formula mix like this one, it has to be soy based as birds can not digest milk based ones, http://www.diapers.com/Product/Prod...&cm_mmc=cse-_-yahoosearchsubmit-_-null-_-null . It can be mixed up to the consistency of slightly thick milk, so it is quite thin, but still very calorie dense and provide not only the needed calories, but maintain good hydration as well. 

The soy formula right out of the can has about 1.3 calories per ml. To make a meal for him I would take 8ml of formula concentrate, 1ml of water and 1ml of peanut oil (almost all edible oils have 8 calories per ml), to get a 10ml meal for him. This made a meal of over 18 calories and I would be able to get 3-4 10ml meals into him a day, for a daily intake of 55-74 calories. On the can it says to dilute 50/50 with water, but it also says under pediatrician's directions it can be made more concentrated, which is what I did. To the 10ml mix I also added 1/4 capsule, give or take, of a good quality digestive enzymes capsule to help him assimilate all the nutrients better. To get a similar amount of calories into him with Kaytee at the higher end of the range, mixed at the proper consistency, it would be like getting 4 feedings of 18ml each, where Kaytee has about 1 calorie per ml when mixed as directed, if I remember right, something there is no way he could/would handle without regurgitating it all and exhausting himself in the process.

He almost always kept this soy formula completely down and I was able to get him to finally start put on weight again. At the weight Mieke is now at you have to move, in my opinion, getting calories into her to the top of your list, it's all about the calories right now. You have received some other good suggestions, but, again in my opinion, in the short term, or even as a test, I would removed solids, as they are slower to digest, and concentrate on calorie dense liquid meals that you may be able to get more of into her each day. 

When my little one went sub 220, although I had really been battling to keep weight on him, it was like this huge alarm went off (like they had not been going off already). The alarm was saying he needs calories, lots of them, in small easy to digest power packed meals, and most importantly, that he can keep down. I can't remember the website that suggested the soy baby formula, I can't even quite remember if it was an avian focused site, but a light went on for me when I read about using this in emergency situations, that said this just might be what he needs right now. 

Good luck with her, I do hope things turn around for her, 

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Karyn, thanks for the detailed information! I agree that more calories are needed so she has the strength to fight this. She just doesn't tolerate much volume. It's worth a shot, since she's been hovering in the 212-221 gm range for a while now.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,



> She just doesn't tolerate much volume.


Yes, mine was exactly the same way. However, as I said, once I eliminated the solids this really seemed to help him keep things down. I laid out so much detail because it took a bit of trial and error to find the best way to get the most calories in the least amount of volume and I know not all circumstances are the same, but this is what worked for me.

Also, the digestive enzymes I felt really helped a lot in speeding up the transition time through his GI tract, allowing shorter intervals betweens feedings, while ensuring the food was well broken down to enable good absorption. Make sure the enzyme capsules contain *Protease*, this will break down protein, *Amylase * this will break down carbohydrates, *Cellulase * will break down fiber and *Lipase * this will break down fats/oils in the formula.

I really think the formula mix just felt "lighter" to him inside of him and that he didn't have this heavy feeling volume of food he just had to get out of him.

I do hope my information will be of some help and please let us know how it goes.

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Well, so far so good. I’ve given her two feedings of the formula, one this afternoon, one this evening. No change so far in her poops, but she looks rounder and her weight is up to 231 gms. Hopefully she’ll be able to retain it. (Since the birds are used to olive oil when I add powder to their seeds, that’s the oil I used.)

One thing that was interesting. Mieke really fights tube feeding and I’m not brave, so feeding Kaytee Exact (even dilute) was drop by drop (literally – this bird has a little mouth). With the new formula, she was willing to open her throat and let me syringe in over a cc at a time. It’s a nice feeling when a bird is trusting enough for that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Terri,

Just a warning, don't look for normal/good looking poops while she is on this formula, any solids are so fine and broken down there will not be any real form to the droppings and they will be quite watery and loose. I hope you can confirm a diagnosis for her so she can get the proper treatment for what is ailing her.

I found with mine I could feed him 10ml about every 4-5 hours, with yours you might find it moves through her even quicker and may be able to do more feedings in a day. Just check her crop after 2-3 hours and see how it feels, if it's empty, feed her again. Over the next few days you will get a feeling for how long it takes for her crop to empty, so you allow as little delay time between emptying and adding food to her crop again. You may even find that you can sneak a few extra mls' per feeding in her if she is keeping things down well, increasing her daily caloric intake.

Also, I just realized something, in re-reading my posts I noticed I did not state or make clear that I also pulled my birds water dish. The reason I did this was although they do need water, water has no calories, and by allowing him to have free access to water it was allowing him to take in fluids that had no caloric value and adding volume to his crop, thus increasing delay time between feedings. If you notice, water is the first ingredient on the formula can, that with the bit more I added made me more than comfortable his hydration needs were being met, I felt that anything going into him was going to add to his nutrition and weight. Again, I am explaining what I did and why, and you have to do what you are comfortable with and your schedule will allow. So it really becomes like you are hand rearing a neonate, they become totally dependent on you for all of their needs and you are trying not to allow them to have an empty crop for any real period of time, except overnight of course. Even then, I would make his last feeding 11 or 12 at night and be right back at him at 7 in the morning.

I am glad to hear feedings are a bit easier and she is so trusting of you.

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for sharing the observation regarding poops and pulling water. She's on 0.7 cc Albon and 0.1 cc Itraconizole, which I can easily incorporate into her morning formula.

She was 221 gms this morning, so up a bit. Any idea how long a bird can safely be on this formula? I noticed the Isomil contains iron - don't know if that's an issue for birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,

To answer your questions. The soy formula I used also had iron, 2.4mg/100ml of concentrate. I was not concerned at this amount and felt that, and I know birds are different from humans, that anything the FDA would approve for use in a baby would be quite safe for animals.

Also, I was aware there are a number of iron supplements out there that fanciers use for their birds that would be given at much higher rates than contained in the formula, here is one that I found and a link for more information on it. 

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-707/MAGNETITE-16-oz-(JEDDS/Detail.bok
http://www.naturesalternatives.com/soil/pigeon.html

Terri, my bird was on this formula for almost three months straight. He went from 214gr up to 290gr (his normal weight before the illness was 345gm). During his illness he was on multiple antibiotics and anti-fungals with very poor responses. I finally got a firm diagnosis for him, lymphoma, with no real treatment options and a negative prognosis. Although I had "forced" him to stay with us through my heroic interventions, I could also tell he was in pain and made the very hard decision to euthanize him and he was PTS while I held him. It still makes me cry to think about my brave little boy.

Anyway, the soy formula did keep him with us until a diagnosis was made, I just wish his illness would have been curable. What I learned from looking after him has helped me with a number of other birds and I take this as a positive and I do also hope it helps Mieke.

Terri, I am editing because it occurred to me that I should mention the other catch 22 in this situation. The catch is that over time the ventriculus, the part of the GI tract where the grinding up of food takes place, can loose its tone and strength from being on an extended liquid diet. In my situation there was no choice and I would worry about that later, it was either a liquid diet or starvation. I figured that once we got a diagnosis and a treatment going I could eventually slowly introduce a more substantial diet back to him. Starting with Kaytee, then moving to pellets, then to small seeds, than slowly introduce his full regular diet back to him, but sadly this was not to be. 

I see no reason that for at least a few weeks, until you can get some weight back on her, why she should not be fine on a liquid diet. If she can handle small seeds at all (mine could not), you could let her self sustain for a day or two to keep her tone every few weeks, then go back to packing on the weigh again and so on. I am hoping you will get a diagnosis and treatment response long before having to do this. This kind of where your judgment comes into play and doing the balancing act you sometimes have to do in these situations.

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the additional information!

So sorry your bird didn’t make it after all your efforts. That must have been distressing and frustrating.  I'm curious - how did you determine that he had lymphoma?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,

Yes, it was very hard loosing him. The diagnosis was made through a biopsy. The thought all along was that he had a liver infection, which was causing it to enlarge. As I mentioned earlier, he was on a number of different antibiotics and antifungals and he was not getting better. A decision was made to do a biopsy on his liver to isolate the infectious agent that was causing his illness so the correct drugs could be prescribed for treatment. When the biopsy came back the diagnosis was lymphoma and not infection.

Terri, I leaving in the morning for a few days to visit family so I won’t be around, but over the weekend I hope that Mieke continues her gains and starts to feel stronger each day.

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Karyn, thank you for sharing your experiences and all this information. Hope you have a safe trip!


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Okay, it's been over 11 days. I've been feeding Mieke the Isomil formula three times a day and she generally is cooperative in opening her throat. When she repeatedly resists, I try again in a few hours. Her weight stays between 220-240 gms, depending on how many feedings she's had. Poops are consistent - few olive drab fecal worms, some urates and some water. She is still weak - can't fly and generally stays on the heat disk.

I took her in for a recheck last Friday because I felt a pea in her crop that had been there for several days. The veterinarian suggested feeding her some seeds to help push it on through her system. I force fed about 1/2 teaspoon small seeds twice on Saturday. Sunday morning, she'd thrown up some small seeds and did the same thing later that afternoon. I didn't feed any more seeds but she did accept two feedings of the Isomil formula.

This morning, her crop was puffy and she wasn't interested in any food until this evening when she accepted 9 ml of Isomil formula (her crop had gone down some).

I don't think she will recover, so at this point I'm just trying to keep her comfortable. The Isomil formula does seem to be easy for her to digest and the veterinarian agreed it was a good support food.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Terri...I'm so sorry.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry that Mieke is doing so poorly, Terri. I know that you've done everything you can. I hope she will surprise us all and regain her weight and health, but I know that is a very long shot.

Bless you for loving her and caring for her as you do.

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the support. I know you both have been through this kind of thing many times. Probably doesn't make it any easier.

This morning, she threw up a tiny bit of the formula and...the pea that she'd been carrying in her crop for so long!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Based upon the symptoms, it seems she has a virus, possibly Adeno-Coli syndrome, a combination of an Adeno or Circo virus and E. coli bacteria. Blood work confirmed a high white blood count, so she was put on Baytril from 5/28 through 6/17. She was given an Appertex on 5/24. She threw up on 6/7 but otherwise has kept the food down. She's had supplemental heat since I brought her in.
> 
> By 6/18, she was up to 230 gms, but hasn't made any progress for several days and her poops are smaller and fewer than before.
> On 6/14 she was down to 193 gms (from her normal 303 gms), but was starting to eat again and fought the syringe, so I reduced feedings. By 6/16, her poops were normal and she had regained enough strength to fly up to a perch.





> Jaye, she does seem stronger over the past few days. I now risk being attacked by buzz-saw beak and wicked wing-wack if I don’t remove her from the cage before refreshing her food and water.


Hi Terri,

I am glad to hear her weight is up a bit and that she got that pea that was bothering her is out. Also, I am glad the Isomil seems to be agreeing with her.

Terri, I have re-read this thread a few times and it seems to me that she started to lose progress with the switch in meds, from Baytril to Albon. I have quoted a few of your earlier comments to help, I hope, make this point a little clearer. You say on 6/16 her droppings looked good and she was strong enough to fly up to a perch, then on 6/17 she stopped the Baytril, you weighed her on the 6/18 and she had progressed up to 230 grams and was feeling much stronger.

If I were you I would switch back to the Baytril ASAP, as you also stated that she started limping, which I did not quote, and my mind is thinking she could have paratyphoid of perhaps another type of infection that the Albon is not effective against. I don't think the two weeks and a few days would have been long enough on the Baytril to have completely cured her of paratyphoid.

I would not give up just yet, if I am reading you right, she seemed to be making progress on the Baytril just as you stopped it, try her again on it, even if it has to be for a month or more. I think her feeling better enough to have started the wing-whacking has me really hoping a switch back in meds might just do the trick for her.

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion, Karyn. I'll call my veterinarian tomorrow morning.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*Zeniquin and Skin Rash*

Instead of Baytil, the veterinarian gave me Zeniquin. Anyone dealt with this medicine before? Any specific reactions with pigeons?

Regarding the skin rash, I noticed Mieke's skin is irritated under her chin. Although I gently wash and dry her cheeks and chin with a damp tissue after each feeding, I wonder if some residual food is causing the irritation. I gave her a bath and blow dry and put a bit of hypo-allergenic moisturizing lotion on her chin and throat. Any other ideas or suggestions?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,

Well, I myself had not heard of Zeniquin before now. However, I did a search, as you probably did already, and it is in the floroquinolone family, as is Baytril. I imagine there is a reason he prescribed this over the Baytril again, perhaps a little broader spectrum of activity, to be more potent. Sometimes, we just have to trust the experts and I would go with this, perhaps he has a hunch, and I hope she does well on it. Here is a link for information on Zeniquin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbofloxacin

As for the rash, I don't have a lot of experience with them, but if you are able to post a picture, it may be helpful for someone to figure out just what it might be.

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

On http://www.1800petmeds.com/Zeniquin-prod10590.html, I found this - “…Do not give Zeniquin within two hours of administering Carafate (sucralfate), antacids, or foods and vitamin/mineral products containing iron, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, or zinc.…”

Since the Isomil has iron, I make sure to give her the Zenequin 2 hours away from any Isomil feedings, and also pull the pickpot (calcium) during that time frame.

She felt good enough to eat a bit of small seeds on her own today and is really fighting the syringe. Still taking it one day at a time.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> She felt good enough to eat a bit of small seeds on her own today and is really fighting the syringe. Still taking it one day at a time.


Terri, that's all you can do is take it one day at a time and hope for the best.

Just a comment again on the seeds. Terri, please make sure that the seeds do not slow down her crop emptying time. With my guy right up to the end he was still interested in eating on his own, as I mentioned before, the trouble was he just could not process the solid food. As he started to put back on weight, from the soy formula I was feeding him, there were a few times where I thought he seemed stronger, lets try a little bit of seeds on him. I tried the seeds back for a few reasons, one to see if he was able to start processing seeds again and two, since he was still interested in pecking and eating, I did not want to completely take that away from him, being a bird so to speak.

In my case, there was not a time that I gave him seeds that I did not regret it, they would block him up again, even very small amounts, and literally for days after eating the seeds he still would be vomiting/regurgitating the seeds to unblock himself. So keep a good eye on things, I think the most important thing right now is to get some weight back on her and making sure solid foods are not actually causing a set back in anyway of this, but adding to her gains

All the best,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks! Excellent point about seeds possibly causing blockage. I'll keep watch for that. It really is a delicate balancing act, providing just enough support to enable their progress.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Basically no change in her condition or attitude. I've been feeding her 4 meals a day, every four hours as long as her crop has emptied. She fights violently if I try to feed her more than 5 ml at a time so she's only getting 20 ml per day. Her weight stays around 225 gms.

On http://www.1800petmeds.com/Zeniquin-prod10590.html, it states that, "...Treatment should continue for a maximum of 30 days; however, if there is no improvement after 5 days, your pet should be reevaluated...."
Do birds typically show improvement that quickly on Baytril?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Terri,

Well, I am glad to hear she is at least maintaining and not loosing ground.

I don't think it has been a week since she has been on her new med, so I would give it at least as long as the last time, when she was on Baytril, to she how she does.

I have another suggestion for you food wise. It might be a good idea to try her on some pellet pops with this brand and size (cockatiel) of pellets.

http://lafebercares.com/pinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=19&parent=9

When I was experimenting and trying to figure out how to add calories to the feedings I was doing, I did try doing this, but these would block my guy up, not as bad as seeds, but the really slowed things down for him. Perhaps Mieke could handle some pellets to help out with calories for her and not get blocked up, you never know. I would start with 5 pellets at feeding time, along with the formula, and see how she does.

The reason I suggest using Lafeber's is that before trying the pellets myself I added pellets from Harrison, Roudybush and Zupreem (as well as Lafeber's) to warm water to see how they would break down. The Lafeber's dissolved the quickest and to the smoothest of consistencies of the mentioned pellets, something that I thought was important in avoiding blockage problems.

Also, I know she is not being the best of girls at feeding time, but if you could get it up to 6ml, instead of 5ml it would boost her calorie intake by 20%, not an insignificant boost.

As always, good luck with her,

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Terri,
I'm giving them formula mixed with a bit of honey (not too much) when they are weak and not keeping food. Honey gets absorbed quickly and gives them strenght.
Adenosan form Chevita is good to boost immunity but its bit expensive.
Spartrix for canker 3 days - 1 tablet a day is good for birds that was on other medicines (doesn't make them throw)


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear TerriB,

I had so many dying ,wasted wild pigeons here last year, it was so horrible. Most of them came to my yard on their last legs, desperate for food and looking for somewhere dark and quiet to die  I cared for a few of them in their last hours, gave them warmth and cried my eyes out over them when they died. But sometimes they'd just go under my house to die and I'd find them too late. Cocciddia seemed to be a major cause of death, along with canker and paratypoid. It was very sad, getting them too late.

From what you've written, it sounds like you've covered a lot of bases with the meds you've given him, especially a good antiobiotic like Baytril (and the new one sounds good too). The only thing I can think of is have you considered changing his Cocciddia med from Albon (a sulpha drug) to something else like Baycox, just in case the coccidia is resistant to Sulpha drugs? Sorry, i don't have any better suggestions 

Hugs to you, its so hard to know what to do sometimes isn't it? At least he's warm , fed, and he has you.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Karyn, thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, every time I add anything solid to the formula, it doesn’t leave her crop – crop stasis.  I tried adding 1/8th teaspoon dilute Kaytee Exact (1:2 with water) to the Isomil formula and had to give her applesauce to get things moving. Today was a bad day – she’s only taken 11 ml so far. 

Plamenh, thanks for the information about using honey. They say not to give honey to infants because their intestines aren’t developed enough to prevent the anthrax spores from passing through. I presumed that a stressed individual might also be vulnerable. Good to know that you haven’t seen this. I’ve been giving her Medimune to boost immunity and have treated her with Ron-Sec for trichomonas, so I think I’ve covered these bases. I’ll put Adenosan on my list as an alternate to Medimune.

Bella, it must have been tough to deal with all those traumatized birds. You folks who do so much rehab have my upmost respect and admiration. I’ve only had the occasional rescue come through. Mieke is a treasured pet I’ve had for over six years, so her decline has been very frustrating. Even though she’s increasingly refusing food, she does enjoy being held for a bit and spending a little time on the window sill savoring the breeze. So I do what I can to make her comfortable and hope I haven’t missed anything critical. I want to do right by this sweet bird.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Terri, I'm so sorry that things are still so difficult for you and Mieke. I wish I had some useful/helpful information to contribute, but I don't. I know you have done and are doing everything you can. I'll keep hoping for that miracle turn around for Mieke.

Terry


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

> Karyn, thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, every time I add anything solid to the formula, it doesn’t leave her crop – crop stasis.  I tried adding 1/8th teaspoon dilute Kaytee Exact (1:2 with water) to the Isomil formula and had to give her applesauce to get things moving. Today was a bad day – she’s only taken 11 ml so far.


Oh Terri, this all sounds so familiar to me, the set back days when you are trying to make adjustments in attempting to boost calories. That's why in the end I just decided to accept that any solids at all where a no go and concentrate on getting as much formula as I could a day into my little guy, sounds like this is where you are at right now as well.



> The only thing I can think of is have you considered changing his Cocciddia med from Albon (a sulpha drug) to something else like Baycox, just in case the coccidia is resistant to Sulpha drugs?


Bella_F made a suggestion that may be worthwhile talking over with your vet, running a course of Baycox, for the reasons she suggested.

Another thing I remembered is that after the diagnosis for my bird, for the few days it took for me to decide what to do, my vet put him on Metacam to help with discomfort/pain I came to realize he was in. Thinking back now, my feeling at the time was that the Metacam seemed also to help in his food processing time, as an additional benefit, by giving him some relief. Perhaps by tamping down and inflammation/pain Mieke might have taking place, it may be of benefit to her, worth asking your vet as well about, again you never know.

Sending healing thoughts for your little girl your way,

Karyn


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for all the support, Terry, Bella_F, and Karyn. One of the most valuable things on this forum is the high level of experience available to bounce ideas off.

I just finished putting Baycox solution in all the waters. I haven’t had good success with sulfa drugs so I appreciate the information regarding Albon. 

Mieke's last feed of the day was 5 ml, so 16 ml total for the day. She’s a small hen – her top weight was 303 gms – and 5 ml seems to be a comfortable amount for her. I’ll check with the vet tomorrow about Metacam. She certainly acts like she is in pain.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Terri,
You are right about honey; maybe I was lucky so far. The truth is that in my ignorance of this danger I was using it for years and had much more success than with commercial mix of glucose + vitamins I was using before.
Is it possible that antibiotics you use are inducing vomiting? Baytril and Zeniquin are fluoroquinolone based antibiotics and vomiting is one of contraindications; Amoxicillin is much safer.
Sorry if I sound like knowing everything, just I ‘m spending too many sleepless nights with sick birds and banging my head at what I’m missing when things doesn’t improve.
I was in very similar situation with one of my hens. 10 on Baytril, and nothing; 7 days on Med Pet’s 4-in-one still nothing. I tried a bunch of other medicines with no positive effect. It was so bad that she could not stand on her legs. She couldn’t keep anything in her crop. Twice I emptied her crop by sucking out content with tube. Vet told me that it is hopeless and better to put her to sleep. Then by chance I went to Cyril’s pigeon store and they told me to get their Direction pills (never heard of them before). Dosage on pack says 1 tablet for one day only. They told me to give two tablets in the morning and two evening for three days!!! 
After that to start multivitamins. I had nothing to loose, she was dying. It has been 4 months since and this hen is alive and fully recovered. 
These tablets contents – Dimetridazole 6.4mg + Sulphadimetazine 32mg + Chloramphenicol 8mg + Furazolidone 4mg + Piperazine Citrate 48mg


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

*R.i.p.*

Mieke died yesterday.  Thank you all for your suggestions and support. With your help I was able to give her the best chance for recovery. She was a grand little hen and I was fortunate to have had her for so long.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Terri, I'm so sorry. You did eveything you could for her.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm sorry Terri.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Terri, I am so very sorry to hear this news. Bless you for trying so hard for her, I am sure you brought much joy into each other's life.

Warm thoughts your way,

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

TerriB said:


> Mieke died yesterday.  Thank you all for your suggestions and support. With your help I was able to give her the best chance for recovery. She was a grand little hen and I was fortunate to have had her for so long.


Hugs to you TerriB; I am very sorry to hear about Mieke  Its so hard when our little friends catch a virus followed by a cascade of other serious problems as well... You did your best with an extremely difficult situation. Please be good to yourself these next few days! I like to run a warm bath with oils when I lose a bird I have loved and cared for. Its such agony, and the warmth and having that private space to cry can be so soothing. 

X Bella


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks for the very kind words, Charis, plamenh, Karyn, and Bella. I came close to losing her five years ago due to chronic egg canal infection, and she's been on borrowed time since. I just wanted to give her a good chance to recover if she could.

I feel badly for her mate, Bliss. They were nest mates and have been together for 10 years. He has always been very devoted to her and was such a gentle mate. After she died, he danced and called to her for an hour, trying to get her to respond. Heartbreaking.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know it's soon, but I just happen to have a young hen that was hand raised. She is a feral and she is very sweet.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry for the loss of Mieke. My heart goes out to you, Terri.

Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks, Charis. You know you are my bird resource. 

Thanks, Terry. I know you've been through this so many times!


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

You know, your bird sounded an awful lot like my Benji. The symptoms were exactly the same. Couldn't fly, malnourished, wouldn't hardly eat, poops the same as yours. But once I gave her Baytril, overnight she seemed to improve. I'm beginning to think that's exactly what she had was what your bird had, so I'm saving your notes in case I come across another Benji.

So sorry for your loss though.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Thanks, Garye. I think if she were younger she might have recovered. The Isomil formula would be helpful for a bird who can't handle any solids. I wonder if she would have rallied if I'd used Baycox earlier (rather than Albon).


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