# HOLY *CUSS WORD*! What is wrong with my pigeon!!??!!??



## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

I've always had my eye on this bird. He's always gotten picked on and acted in general just different than the others. We have had him (as well as our others) for well over a year now. He's never had a cere like this.

He has never left the loft and is the only bird with this problem. He eats fine. His face was not swollen like this 4 days ago, and I didn't even notice it yesterday.... something like this would have caught my eye like it did today.

He has always had thin feathers on top of his head, I assume because he gets picked on but I treated all of my birds with scat a few weeks ago so i dont think its scaly face mites. I don't know what his poos look like because he lives with 22 other birds. His nostrils are very swollen and it looks like the skin may have been bleeding around the area.

Wtf is going on with this bird!?!? Sorry I'm throwing bunches of random info my mind is just going a million different directions right now.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You need to bring the bird in and separate him from the others so you will know how much poop and what it looks like.
I do think he has burrowing mites. I haven't found Scat to work that well on face mites. You need to treat him with moxedectin and you need to treat their environment in three week intervals for three times and there after every 3 months.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks like scaly face mites. I would separate him for now. I'd have it checked by a vet.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He's definitely separated from everyone, that's the first thing I did. Would scaly face mites make his face essentially blow up over night like this? And he's the only one who looks this way.

Scat has moxidectin listed as the active ingredient or something like that and I've already used it recently, is it safe to use moxidectin on him? I believe I have moxidectin, I'll have to check later as I'm currently making dinner, but I thought that was a wormer???


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh, and charis- what should I treat the loft with? And I assume all birds need moxidectin, yes?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

OK, I checked my my pigeon's medicine mini fridge and I do have moxidectin. What I have is a wormer... is that the stuff you're talking about? And is it OK to use a few weeks after using scat cause scat says it has moxidectin in it.

My bird does eat and drink, but he's freaked out right now because he's been removed from the loft so I don't know quite how much he's eating and drinking right now. Can it wait a couple days to treat with the moxi until he's more comfortable or can I give it to him orally instead of putting it in his water?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You never treat in the drinking water when you are treating a sick bird. Save that for the flock treatment for preventative. A bird actually needing a cure from something should be treated individually, so that you are sure of how much he is getting.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Thank you jay, would you happen to know some answers for my other questions? I remember mini monkey saying you (and charis) in particular are very knowledgeable when she was helping me in the past.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Squeaker said:


> OK, I checked my my pigeon's medicine mini fridge and I do have moxidectin. What I have is a wormer... is that the stuff you're talking about? And is it OK to use a few weeks after using scat cause scat says it has moxidectin in it.
> Yes, that is the stuff, and yes, you can use it a few weeks after using the Scat. If that is face mites, which burrow, it will need to be treated more than once and over a period of time. I would get on it asap though, as it can be very deforming to the beak and cere.
> 
> My bird does eat and drink, but he's freaked out right now because he's been removed from the loft so I don't know quite how much he's eating and drinking right now. Can it wait a couple days to treat with the moxi until he's more comfortable or can I give it to him orally instead of putting it in his water?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Thank you, I'll get right on it. What's the best disinfectant to use on the loft? Will a water/bleach solution work to try and rid myself of these buggies? Charis mentioned treating the environment, but I'm not sure with what. I've always just scraped everything.

Do you suppose they could have had these mites prior to me getting them over a year ago? He has always looked different than the others. Always had bigger skin area around the eyes and thin feathers. Ive asked numerous questions about this bird and no one ever seemed to have the answers, not that I didn't appreciate the advice.

The guy I got my birds from had a horrible loft. Poo stacked 4-6 inches in some places. And my loft certainly doesn't look anything close to that. I do my best to keep it clean. On a side note, my birds were going to be used as hawk food... no wonder his hawks are having respratory and bacterial problems, considering where they lived. Anyhoo, it seems strange that his face managed to practically explode in a matter of hours it seemed like.

Ps- here's a video I took some time last year. He has always done this head bobbing thing (but its not a paratyphoid seed tossing head Bob).... could this have been a sign of irritation if there was a mite in his face? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iW0fH045Ww&feature=youtube_gdata_player I took the video in January of this year, but he has always done it.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

BTW, will the swelling in his face go down after treatment?

And I did read that the mites are usually there for a year or more before showing signs of scaly face mites. So I'm gonna go ahead and say they probably got it from the loft they were born in.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

All depends on the damage done. Why not take him to a vet for an opinion?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

I plan on it if I can find the time. I'm working about 70 hrs a week right now. Depending on how long I have to work these hrs, it may have to be done at home with moxidectin.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Last night, I treated ALL birds with moxidectin orally. One other birds mouth area didn't look right either, but not like this bird. I also chose to treat orally because it was time to worm them anyway.

When I was treating my birds, I transferred each bird into a holding cage to ensure I didn't dose any birds twice and then cleaned the loft. When I went to let them back into the loft I noticed the holding cage was WET! I know birds can make odd poop when scared, and my breeders aren't handled ever, could it be just poo or could it have been that they threw up the medicine? They had full crops and I don't recall seeing seed on the floor. Normally their poo looks normal, but it was clear with some brown here and there. So I'm positive at least some was poo, but the clear confused me.

How soon can I retreat the birds and should it be done in the water or orally again?
When should I begin to see results?
I've read applying oil can help smother mites, what kind is best to use around the face and eyes?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker...you must be very careful with oil around the eyes and cere. I wouldn't use it.
It would be safe to treat them again in a couple of weeks. I would treat the loft again in three week for three times and followed by every three months to keep them under control.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Thank you charis. I will get them all on a treatment schedule. Is there a good disinfectant I can use on the loft itself while the birds are still in it that might help with the mites? I put mite dust around the outside of the loft perimeter as well as lightly inside the loft around the edges. I know this might not help with the burrowing mites, but I figured it was worth a shot.

How long do you suppose it'll be until I see his face going down in size?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Disinfectants won't help with the mites, for that you need something effective against mites. The disinfectant is effective against bacteria.
I like Tech trol, but Charis uses a generic form of it that she got on Amazon, for a bit cheaper.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Disinfectants won't help with the mites, for that you need something effective against mites. The disinfectant is effective against bacteria.
> I like Tech trol, but Charis uses a generic form of it that she got on Amazon, for a bit cheaper.


Thank you jay. I'll get some even if its not effective for mites cause I need it anyway. I hope I can tackle the mite problem to get my feather babies healthy again. I saved these birds, its crazy that I'm still dealing with problems over a year later. When i got them i had to treat them for respratory problems and coccidiosis and some other stuff, i forget what tho. I read symptoms of scaly face mites sometimes don't show up for a year or 2 and now that I think about it, he tried to give us a bird that had a twisted beak. At the time we assumed it was a birth defect, now I'm wondering if it was the mites cause I saw lots of weird looking beaks on Google while looking for pix of scaly face.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/parasite_products.htm

Insectrin ...it's toward the bottom of the page. This is what you can use to spray the inside of the loft.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/parasite_products.htm
> 
> Insectrin ...it's toward the bottom of the page. This is what you can use to spray the inside of the loft.


Thanks a bunch! I'll research it a bit and pick some up. I think I'll just disinfect everything and use the mite stuff just to make sure I get any and all yuckies outta my loft.

Edit: I just googled it and saw its made by prozap. My dust is also made by prozap and I'm wondering if its the same thing. Its "garden and poultry dust"

I appreciate all the help charis and jay.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/parasite_products.htm
> 
> Insectrin ...it's toward the bottom of the page. This is what you can use to spray the inside of the loft.



Haven't seen that one, but it's Permethrin 10% so should work well. I buy the Permectin II.
You should get it.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Never mind, I answered my own question. Insectrin is 10% permethryn. Garden and poultry dust is only .25% permethryn. I wonder what % insectrin is when diluted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Does this help?

Indoor Use
Surface Spray
For initial cleanup of severe insect infestation, dilute at a rate of 1 part concentrate in 19 parts water (6.4 ounces per gallon) (0.5%).

For normal infestations and maintenance, dilute 1 part concentrate in 39 parts water (3.2 ounces per gallon) (0.25%).

To control cockroaches, waterbugs, palmetto bugs, ants, silverfish, firebrats, spiders, crickets, millipedes, clover mites, cheese mites, granary weevils, rice weevils, confused flour beetles, rust red flour beetles, saw-toothed grain beetles, spider beetles, cigarette beetles, drugstore beetles, mealworms, grain mites and cadelles, use a good sprayer adjusted to deliver a coarse wet spray. Direct the spray into hiding places, cracks and crevices, under pallets, around containers of stored foods, around the base of machinery, and behind shelves and drawers. Spray bookcases for silverfish. Spray ant trails, nests and points of entry. If surface application only is to be used, spray floors, walls and other surfaces applying at a rate of 1 gallon to 750 square fe
http://www.drugs.com/vet/prozap-insectrin-x-concentrate.html


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Does this help?
> 
> Indoor Use
> Surface Spray
> ...


Definitely helps with the dilution question but it doesn't say anything about avian mites or anything like that.... meh, still prolly wouldn't hurt to use.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Squeaker said:


> Definitely helps with the dilution question but it doesn't say anything about avian mites or anything like that.... meh, still prolly wouldn't hurt to use.


It'll work. They never list everything. I use Permethrin all the time and it works. They just list the more common things that most people would want it for.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> It'll work. They never list everything. I use Permethrin all the time and it works. They just list the more common things that most people would want it for.


Ahh, gotcha. I have the dust, but I think I'll still pick up the liquid so I can make a higher concentrate to spray it in the cracks where the dust can't get to.

*sigh* ok , I feel like I can tackle this lol. I'll keep the thread updated from time to time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's what I do. I use the dust on the birds and even the boxes usually, but I like the spray to get under and behind things and in the cracks and all. Good luck.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Here's a poo pic. I did just dose him with moxidectin and he was recently moved to the isolation cage, so I'm trying not to freak out cause it could be due to stress (and they get squished when he walks). But they are a bit green and there's some liquid, but they don't have the awful bacterial infection smell at all. They smell normal (yes I took a whiff lol).

I added some ACV to the water to hopefully level things out. On a positive note, though his cere is still much larger than its supposed to be, it seems to be less inflamed and he might be getting some new face feathers pokeing through to replace the ones he lost.

On a much less positive note, it looks like some of the birds his age are also showing signs. I noticed the day I treated them  and it appears that at least one now has canker I assume because of the stress. I've never seen canker, it doesn't look like "cottage cheese" like I've read. The spot I saw looks more like... a canker sore lol, for lack of better description. The mouth is pink and next to the tongue there is a little round yellow spot.

Should I treat with ronsec for the canker? Its intended for extremely resistant crop canker and is a one
Single dose pill. Im leaning toward one for extremely resistant canker because I want it GONE so I can focus on the scaly face.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Squeaker said:


> Here's a poo pic. I did just dose him with moxidectin and he was recently moved to the isolation cage, so I'm trying not to freak out cause it could be due to stress (and they get squished when he walks). But they are a bit green and there's some liquid, but they don't have the awful bacterial infection smell at all. They smell normal (yes I took a whiff lol).
> The droppings look like he isn't eating much, which I can understand, as he must be very uncomfortable. You are going to have to hand feed him, or he will go down quickly.
> 
> I added some ACV to the water to hopefully level things out. On a positive note, though his cere is still much larger than its supposed to be, it seems to be less inflamed and he might be getting some new face feathers pokeing through to replace the ones he lost.
> ...


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Ahh, you're prolly right about the ronsec dose. I didn't read the bottle before my last post, when I bought it I was deciding between 2 meds, must've gotten them mixed up... but I do have ronsec. I have some other canker med too, don't remember what it is that I have.

I only checked the one bird and saw that he had it so I assumed I'd just be treating everyone like I did with moxi. I might just give it to everyone orally since I have multiple birds showing signs of scaly face now, I assume they probably all have canker too since they're all stressed with the mites.

Can I just put this bird back in with the others since at this point, he's no different than the others showing signs of scaly face? I can't logically isolate that many birds. I have 12 original birds and 9 youngsters. Not all of the adults are showing signs, but if they were all bred in the same infested loft, I'm sure its just a matter of time. I think I have about 5-7 birds who definitely have it.

If the face will never go back to normal, how do I know if the moxi worked?  I'm so bummed to hear they won't go back to normal


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't put the ones without signs of it in with those that are showing signs.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't put the ones without signs of it in with those that are showing signs.


Well what would I do with them??? Build them a new loft? Almost half my birds are showing signs and contamination usually happens in the nest, so they all have it by now, but the youngsters just haven't shown signs yet.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Any thoughts on it being pox? Could explain the canker thing I thought I saw (since ive never actually seen canker in person).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks more like the mites than pox, but time will tell I guess.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

God it makes me so sad! Like, the losing sleep kind of sad and worried. I mean they probably won't die because I'm not ignoring it but I don't want them to look like little mutants for the rest of their lives either! 

I keep seeing ivermectin to treat scaly face mites. Is moxidectin basically the same? I think I'll take a few birds to the vet for a skin scrapeing this weekend, god willing I can find the time while working 70 hrs... maybe I can ask to leave a couple hrs early. Im going to try my best to have them seen. My dogs vet is a retired pigeon racer, so hopefully he will give me a definitive answer. I just hate not knowing for absolutely sure.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe he will have more ideas on treating them.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Well good news, I got my babies in to see the vet and he agreed its scaly face mites. He gave me ivermectin, which I will switch to next week. Moxidectin appears to have helped to reduce the size of the cere, but I'd prefer ivermectin. Turns out, he knows the guy I saved my birds from and he said his birds also have it... so my assumption was right, they got it from his loft, not mine... which is a huge relief cause I've always thought I kept good care of my loft cleanliness.
Edit: the whole visit only set me back $26  medicine included with PLENTY of extra med and a free cat toy. It pays off when your neighbor is also a pigeon guy and is also a veterinarian lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Let us know how the ivermectin works. I too have seen it recommended. So will be curious as to how it works. Good luck!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Will do. I'll be starting it next Saturday since I've already given the moxi. It says repeat every 2 to 4 weeks on the bottle of ivermectin but it doesn't say for how long


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can't you call him to see how long it should take?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Yeah, prolly will


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Arnie is improving. He's only had one dose of moxi so far, and I'll be switching to ivermectin this Saturday. But his cere is definitely less swollen and less irritated, its not red like it was and his eye isn't swollen like it was before. He is the worst one, but he is definitely looking better. He is also eating much better now that he is back with his friends. He dives in with everyone else at feeding time. I think he was just nervous in the isolation cage.

Edit: please excuse the messy feathers, he needs a bath today. He got some poo on him during a trip to the vet. All the breeders make a mess when they're put in a small cage cause they're not used to it. The flyers don't make a mess.


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