# DON'T SHOOT OUR BIRDS OF PREY



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

When you are allowing your pets or flocks to fly free they are then subject to the dangers of both land and sky. The hawk that takes a pigeon is just trying to survive, and bring food home to the chicks. Birds of prey are an integral part of our various ecosystems, they have an important role in regulating rodent and avian populations. The people that shoot our birds of prey are ignorant. All life deserves respect.

JGregg


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Hello Greg,
Raptors are not the best subject here at Pigeons.com
This is because we see pigeons being killed by these predators.
But, you must know that it is a federal law to injure or kill raptors here in the U.S.A
Offenders can receive tremendous fines for doing harm to raptors.
We know this, and we respect the law.

But on another note, I think that pigeons should also be protected by federal law, just the same as raptors and crows, seagulls and such.

You are concerned for the raptors. We are concerned for the pigeons. And you said that “All life deserves respect”.
So will you join us in our efforts give all life, including pigeons, the respect that all life deserves? 
Regards,
Carl


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I love pigeons and would seek to protect them from raptors, but would never support harming another animal nor would I blame a predator for being what it is. 

Cynthia



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_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

Now I haven't read every post on here as of late, but has anyone ever said anything about shooting birds of prey?? I've never heard anyone even mention such a thing. I have heard of farmers shooting bears, wolves and wild cats because they eat their herds and flocks. But never have I heard of someone shooting an eagle, or hawk or raptor because they were eating their pigeons. I've only heard of people selling off thier pigeons because hawks have moved in, and they don't want to compete with them. 

I'll look at the posts again, maybe I totally missed something. But I don't think any animal should be killed because it's hungry. If anything, maybe someone could call a wildlife sanctuary to help relocate the wild bird to a better part of the woods. I've heard of that being done with no problems.

Suzanne


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## screamingeagle (Oct 16, 2002)

Ok, I found it. One small comment made by roller man. I think a 22 is bit a bit much. We always had animals destroying this and that at my parents house. My dad kept a pellet gun loaded, but not really to kill them, just to scare them off. Although it was strong enough to kill the crows. I think killing them is a bit much. Maybe a small bb gun would do enough to really scare them, but not seriously injure them. Many wild animals don't have anywhere to go but into the city since housing developments are destroying their habbitats. Kind of a tricky issue to address.


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## dimondDwings (Jul 25, 2003)

Hey Greg,
I have to agree with bigbird and cyro. Its not wise to talk about raptors on this site but that does not mean we hate them. Just as you said, "ALL LIFE DESERVES RESPECT". Well arent our pigeons living creatures? They deserve just as much respect as raptors do. You may not think so, but pigeons have an important role in our various ecosystems as well. I have had birds of prey take some of my pigeons from me but I do not blame them, I wiped my tears away and told myself that they were only trying to survive in the harsh enviroments man has forced them to live in. Like bigbird said, join us and help us give all life the respect it deserves.

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DDW


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## mike_m453 (Apr 13, 2003)

Yes every animal deserves respect yet many people see Pigeons as Rats with wings wich is very untrue.Many of us here respect wildlife just as much as our birds and would never dream of hurting a Raptor.So why does the Pigeon get so little respect?


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## tomcass00 (Jul 31, 2003)

I have a little insight to the endangered species and predation on domestic animals in that my father and I were and are ranchers and my grandfather and I are and were pigeon fanciers 
Under the law and its been tried and tested if an endangered predator takes domestic livestock it can be dealt with in a humane manner be it capture and relocation which seldome works or if its euthanasia by whatever means 
but when it comes to raptors its a little different although in the case of eagles it has again been tried and proven that when a rancher has losses due to endangered species the rancher has the right to seek a course of action to resolve such losses 
be it capture, destroying or other protective measures 
raptors enjoy the protection but unless they are doing damage to livestock they cannot be dealt with now the interesting part is that pigeons are livestock in some communities and in some they are livestock if they are raised for consumption whereas pigeons raised for or used in racing and other fancier related platforms are not livestock and have no protections 
if an hawk or eagle or predator attacks a human its a danger and can and will be dealt with accordingly BY THE APPROPRIATE AGENCIES
years ago we did shoot cougar, coyote, badger, wolverine and wolf
we never had losses to eagles, eagles dont pick up cattle although they do lambs, if a alligator attacks a human or livestock it to can be destroyed as a bear or any other predator 
when we were flying racing pigeons in the 50s and early 60s we did shoot hawks never had cause with eagles again but in the case of hawks chickens are livestock by all definitions and a chicken hawk would meet a shotgun welcome 
then the protections were put in place on raptors Problem because along with being a person who believes in nature or a naturalist/environmentalist and a former park ranger I still am a rancher and pigeon fancier so now the deilemma what to do about the hawks 
the approach I use is try all alternatives to destroying but there comes a point where no matter what the alternatives are they no longer work and the protections place on the raptors have been so well adhered to that the raptors are now at a level greater than they have everbeen according to the audubon society there has never been as many raptors as there are now meaning the balance of nature has turned and again man in his infinate wisdom in his trying to do the right thing has meddled where he shouldnt have true man was responsible for ddt and its effects on the raptor population 
however though I will hesitate to harm any animal preditor or what I after reasonable response will not hesitate to take a more drastic action .


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

I am transfering the following post from a topic that has now been deleted. The information below should have been placed in this topic string, started by JGregg instead of being placed into an entirely new topic post.
Thanks,
Carl


From: JGregg
Let's clear up a couple of questions from my last post "Don't Shoot Our Birds of Prey". I have pet pigeons, and have had them for the last fifteen years (my two boys are Acid and Hicken Sop). I do not fly flocks,or allow my pets to venture outside unless I am outside with them. I simply do not want my babies to get hurt, in any way. Of course I think a pigeon's life is worthwhile. I've got hefty Vet bills & my 10 yr old pigeon (Acid) is diabetic! I also transport baby pigeons 40 miles from a "bird rescue center" which puts them down (a center that puts healthy birds of ANY species down is not a rescue center) to one that doesn't put them down. In addition I take money out of my pocket to pay for the baby's care.
Now that I have established that I love pigeons let me state that I ALSO love birds of prey. Yes, such a thing is possible! I've raised birds of prey as well as various native and feral species. I continue to love raptors even though a Cooper's Hawk attacked one of the pigeons I raised in front of me. The pigeon (my baby!) died in my mother's arms as she tried to stop the bleeding. It would be silly if I started to hate raptors. I'll put this into another context. If your cousin was killed by a car, would you start hateing cars and those who drive them? I don't think you would. Without a logical basis hatred is unessisary.
I love ALL birds! 
Time for me to get off of the soap box.

JGregg


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you for clarifying your position regarding pigeons. You are obvioulsy a dedicated pigeon person with lods of comapssion. 

There was recently a bit of tension on this site over whether racoons that break into lofts and kill the birds should be kllled, which is why we are reluctant to discuss a similar subject. But you also deserve the courtesy of a reply.

You are not alone in recognizing that loving pigeons and loving the creatures that would prey on them is natural. There are members on this site who rescue raptors too. and that love them dearly.

I feed a feral flock and there is a feral cat that lurks in the bushes as I feed them. plainly wanting some supper. I love cats and I love pigeons. So I look out for the cat and feed the pigeons well away from the bushes. I also provide the occasional tray of cat food for it. If that cat catches and kills one of "my" pigeos while the are eating and vulerable it will be my fault. Similary if I let my pigeons fly free and they were attacked by a hawk I would have to accpet the responsibilty for that death, not throw it on the hawk.

The only predator that I blame entirely for being what he is is man. 

Admitedly there are people that would like to shoot me because I feed the pigeons and the feeling is reciprocal. But that is a different story!


So, now tell us about your diabetic pigeon and the santuary that doesn't euthanaze
pigeons just because of what they are.

Cynthia


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## dimondDwings (Jul 25, 2003)

Greg,
I hope you will accept my apology for coming down on you the way I did.







I did not know that you had pigeons and cared for them deeply therefor causing some tension. I know where you stand now and respect this position for I also am a BIRD LOVER and have raised numerous species, ferals as well. Me and you are in the same mix as for many others on this site, I had a hawk take one of my birds away from me but I did not blame the hawk.

Animals should not be killed for their actions. They are simply just trying to survive on what little us humans have left for them. 

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DDW


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## RollerMan64 (Jul 16, 2003)

Should I make a reply ???????????


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## RollerMan64 (Jul 16, 2003)

Do you Guys think that a Pigeon should be kept in a cage all its life, and not be able
to fly??????????????????????????????? I think that's BS!!!! Pigeons are creatures of the Sky and should fly. I only raise flying breeds and will not put up with a predator
killing my babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I am their Soul Protector and will do what ever
it takes to keep them from harm while in the loft or in the sky, That's the way I see it and will never change. I don't hunt down every Predator, But when they come calling for a feed on my pets and livestock they are trouble looking for trouble and I will take any means to despose of the problem. ENUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Infamous RollerMan!!!


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## dimondDwings (Jul 25, 2003)

I see where your coming form rollerman. I have chickens and ducks and last summer I had 34 chicks and 2 clutches of ducklings hatch out and one single hawk killed them all. This hawk, really really made me mad to where I almost was going to kill it. But my new buddy smokey, who is a crow that I raised keeps all the hawks away.

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DDW


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't know if I should reply. It seems to me that some people overuse their puncuation keys and guns, but neglect to use any reasoning. Yep, ignorance is expensive! All I have to say is that I'm glad I'm not you.

The bird rescue center in San Rafael takes pigeons without putting them down. I give them about 10-20 dollars per bird I drop off.

Ground up alfalfa (you can get it in a health food store) can be used to stimulate the production of the insulin homologe in avians. Acid (my 10, soon to be 11 yr old pigeon) is diabetic for maybe three months out of the year, and normal the rest of the time. I don't think that he is truly diabetic, he just has a condition. My theory is that his condition has a viral or bacterial trigger.


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

JGregg,

It's good to see intelligent postings. Welcome to pigeons.com )

Julie


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## bigbird (Aug 19, 2000)

Yes, JGreg, it is nice having your input here.
Regards,
Carl


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the info. We seem to know of so many places that kill pigeons for being "vermin" or "non native species" that we hoard any info on places that will care for them!

Cynthia


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

yup u should never kill our birds of prey.u might be killing the father of a baby.how would u like irt if 1 of your parents were shot for eating a chicken?yup u woul feel terrible.so would the chicks.


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## Webby (Feb 18, 2005)

My nieghbors put 40 Pigeons in a small coupe. They can afford to lose ten or 20 pigeons.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi screamingeagle,


A pellet gun or a bb gun is not a good idea...

The whole idea of 'scareing them off' is not valid, and all it does is injure them to get infections or die later with them having no idea that someone trying to 'scare them off'.

If you get shot say, not knowing from where or whom it came or even what it is, while in your own back yard or home, just remember, maybe someone was just trying to scare you off of some abstract thing you did not even know you were doing.

Anyone or their pappy, who shoots any kind of Birds with anything will not find favor with me.



Phil
el ve


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi tomcassOO, all...


Thing is, some Pigeons are more aware or observant than others, some are faster fliers than others...some posess ( all Ferals in my experience) maneuvers of rolling or tumbleing or evasive bursts of novel kind one way or another.

I used to see some of mine do roller or tumbler maneuvers just for fun, but I knew as well they would do so in earnest...as well as all the Babys I ever raised were VERY interested and aware of even the tiniest 'dot' up in the Sky above them.

I think we can rest assured, that some Pigeons are better disposed to evade the tactics or eventualities of Birds of prey, than are others.

If one is worried about this, I expect the matter will resolve well enough by noteing those Birds which do not become prey, are maybe those Birds who posess the requisite , circumspect and abilities of maneuvers well timed, to not be eaten. 

Let these birds breed, and one may have as much of a Prey-proof flock as is possible.

If one does not accept that Birds of Prey can or may claim one's occasional Pigeon, maybe one should not assume responsibilities to Pigeons which require killing other Birds to favor one's own maybe none too bright ones....which would be merely bad eugenics and imposition for one's naive vanity of "keeping" them.

I am reminded of an old joke - 

Old woman has two Chickens...

One is healthy, one is sickly.

So, she kills the healthy one to make Soup, for the sickly one.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Hawks that move in here during the off season. When they migrate. Are a problem at that time. They are in no way feeding young at that time. But an extra amount of hawks in a smaller hunting area occurs. Where during there breeding season. They move on to there breeding grounds. That have a food supply and the hawks are thinned out during this time season. So its say catch 22. You have a time period now days that has more hawk population per area For say about 5 6 months out of the year. Showing also that thru protection over a long period. They have repopulated to a point They now can be considered a problem certion times of the year. With no real answer to what can be done. Other then keep birds in during the high hawk season. Or be sure to smart train the birds. Loft flight when on the loft or board and not trapping fast. They are easy prey. And I think more birds are taken at this time rathere then when they are up in the air. Because they are easy targets. So flying them hungry teaching them to trap when the land will help reduce the losses. And as a few more years go by. The hawk problem will more then likely increase. Its becoming a hazard of the sport of flying now. And People who keep flyers and some that keep poulrty Are the ones that get hit. Others will probably Never notice the hawks at all. Rathere then seeing them form time till time. And I think thru over grazing pesticides. Land use for the suburbs. We have reduced the feeding grounds the natural prey and such TO where that hawks now take the city and town hunts in for food needs.


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## newbie (Feb 25, 2005)

I have lost several birds to hawks within the last few months and although it sickens me. I would not consider shooting the hawks either. First of all it is illegal in most states and perhaps it is my own ignorance that lead to my birds demise. I love to watch my birds fly and I sit on my deck and watch them often. Maybe I should not be letting them out until they can hide in the leaves of the trees.

If I do continue with pigeons, I will have a flight pen for them that is protected. This cycle of life happening right before my eyes has me reconsidering keeping pigeons that are hawk feed right now. And now with the loss of my oldest and favorite hen, Star, I am really questioning what I am doing??

CR


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

well i did post up a post called hawk scaring technique.flying a kite.DO NOT HIT IT WITH THE STRING OR KITE this will severely injure it.draw something nasty to a hawk on it and it will run off.or bite and destroy the kite


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi re lee,


You remind me that the Bird of Prey concern is also somewhat different in different areas of the Country, and, in different Seasons for any area. Good points to bear in mind.

I was being a little complaiscent, since in my area their presence never seemed very common or Seasonal. One sees various Falcons or Hawks now and then, many of whom are themselves too small to try and take an adult Pigeon.

Phil
Las Vegas


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