# Paratyphoid



## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Two of my birds are sick with paratyphoid. I did not do a stool sample ID but
the paralysis and joint swelling have led to me to my diagnosis. I have been treating with 4 drops of Baytril 10 % twice a day. There has been some improvement. The Drops are put in the mouth one at a time. A year ago I posted about a pigeon I found on a bridge that appeared to have been hit by a car. I never had him x-rayed but in retrospect he may have been severely crippled by paratyphoid. He has never been treated. I'm wondering if anybody has treated a bird who had paratyphoid for a long time before treatment and what the outcome was. My two other sick pigeons are nearing the end of their 14 day Baytril treatment and I'm wonder what I might do for them next. Both Tucu's legs were paralyzed now he can stand half way up. One of Jeroni's knees is swollen and two of the nails on that foot are white. Both birds had intestinal involvement and Jeroni had trouble breathing. Now it's just the swollen joint. I read about apple cider vinegar and tried putting it in the water but my birds did not drink so I stopped. If you know of any good links or have some suggestions please pass them along.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I had good result treating Salmonella with Chloramphenicol. 2x5 days treatment with 2 days vitamins and detox after every 5 days.
After treatment I gave them probiotics 3 days in the row and weekly afterwards. Good bacteria help fight Salmonella too.
I use Beta Glucan and Calcium Acsorbate and B complex vitamins to boost their immunity in post treatment period, I believe any immune booster will do.
For swelling externally I use tea tree oil, only on swollen area with q-tip once a day.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I would stronly advise you do *not* use 'tea tree oil' on the bird. If the bird should pick at the swelling or inadvertently ingest the oil during preening, it is extremely likely to be toxic. It is equally possible that any vapor from it may also be toxic.

Administer the full course of the antibiotic you are currently using. 

John


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## Flamingo (Dec 30, 2009)

superflyer said:


> Two of my birds are sick with paratyphoid. I did not do a stool sample ID but
> the paralysis and joint swelling have led to me to my diagnosis. I have been treating with 4 drops of Baytril 10 % twice a day. There has been some improvement. The Drops are put in the mouth one at a time. A year ago I posted about a pigeon I found on a bridge that appeared to have been hit by a car. I never had him x-rayed but in retrospect he may have been severely crippled by paratyphoid. He has never been treated. I'm wondering if anybody has treated a bird who had paratyphoid for a long time before treatment and what the outcome was. My two other sick pigeons are nearing the end of their 14 day Baytril treatment and I'm wonder what I might do for them next. Both Tucu's legs were paralyzed now he can stand half way up. One of Jeroni's knees is swollen and two of the nails on that foot are white. Both birds had intestinal involvement and Jeroni had trouble breathing. Now it's just the swollen joint. I read about apple cider vinegar and tried putting it in the water but my birds did not drink so I stopped. If you know of any good links or have some suggestions please pass them along.


I had a pigeon with severe paratyphoid/Salmonella and could not even walk. I was told by a very experienced pigeon man to mix 1 teaspoon of aureomyacin in 1 ounce of water and administer this with a syringe, all of it. I did this and the next day the bird was acting normal. Walking with most of the swelling gone. In 2 days I put him back in the loft with no more attacks. I hoe that this helps you. There is a vaccine for Salmonella called Sal-Bac. You can only get this in 50 and 100 dose bottles so unless you have close to fifty pigeons this might not be plausable. This is give to healthy birds only and is a preventive not a cure.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Yes, tea tree oil cannot be used on open wounds, internally or if there is a danger of ingestion. It is highly toxic for cats too.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

The dosage of Aureomycin for pigeons is 600-1500 mg for 4 liters of water for 7-14 days. Use the lower dosage during warm weather and the higher dosage during colder weather. In this case, for practical convenience, you could *use 1 level teaspoon (1000 mg) of product for 4 liters of water*, a compromise between 600 and 1500 mg, during warm weather.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

plamenh said:


> For swelling externally I use tea tree oil, only on swollen area with q-tip once a day.


Plamenh, I really do wish you would refrain from the further recommendation of tea tree oil on avians for any reason. I think the use of this oil has been called into question in other threads, with links, that I am sure you must have read. I do not see a good reason to recommend something if there is even a slight chance it may bring harm to a bird and I personally think the chance is more than slight.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

superflyer said:


> I have been treating with 4 drops of Baytril 10 % twice a day.


Hi Superflyer,

This quote caught my eye. I have found that a 1cc syringe holds approximately 20 drops of liquid, so 2 drops per 0.10cc, so at 4 drops you are giving about 0.20cc of 10% Baytril, or about 20mg twice a day, so 40mg a day. The generally called for dose for pigeons is 20mg/kg once or twice a day, or how I usually work it out in my mind, 2mg per 100 grams of weight. So for a bird weighing 350gm the daily dose would be about 14mg for the day, you may be at 40mg for the day. I have had my vet go to 10mg twice a day for a very ill bird, but this is still only 20mg for the day.

There are a number of reasons for variables in this, such as what you are using to measure out the drops, but it is a little red flag the jumped out at me, so I thought I would make mention of it.

Also, I am aware of, and others may be as well, that there have been adverse reports on tendon injury, both in animals and humans, with the use of fluoroquinolones, which Baytril is a member of, so it is really important I think we get the dose right. http://ezinearticles.com/?Fluoroqui...Tendon-Ruptures-and-Other-Problems&id=1542601

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Karyn,
I'm sharing my positive experience, not recommending anything.
This is as result of other users sharing their positive experience in this forum and checking more then one thread, internet sources etc. before even trying it.
I had 5 cases of salmonella swelling treated this way and not one negative effect. There are 500 posts in the forum regarding this and if you have time, you can check with other members on their experience.

At the same time you do not mind recommendation of 1000 mg Aureomicin in the single dose, or you are reading only my posts? I'm flattered.
http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm

With respect Plamen


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

plamenh said:


> I'm sharing my positive experience, not recommending anything.


Plamen, by sharing what methods, drugs and products you use in treatment you are making implied recommendations, even if you do not feel they are direct ones. I have read your posts and you seem to truly care about the the health and welfare of the birds people come here for help with. This is why I just can not quite understand, again with the information provided in the links I mentioned on tea tree oil, why if there are large question marks about its safety in avian use, and small animals in general, why it is so important to continue to recommend it.

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

You are right, I do care for birds and sucess of their treatment. I care for people who are helping them. On one side I weight your information and links you provided. On the other side experience of the people I really respect and value their knowledge. Not to mention my own.
I'm not saying that you are wrong or right. Just that on every link that you post I can post at least one with absolutely oposite information. Please share your experience and provide constructive solution.
Besides if I share with you that I lost three other of my Salmonella birds treated with Baytrill (no tea tree oil) and provide links with the same content from other users, would you stop recommending Baytrill?
Any arguments or debates we can move either to new tread or you can post me a message. This one is to help Superflyer and his birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

plamenh said:


> Any arguments or debates we can move either to new tread or you can post me a message. This one is to help Superflyer and his birds.


Agreed, sorry for any digression in this thread, but a recommendation was made that I felt it had to be addressed.

Karyn


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks a lot everybody for all your advise! I enjoyed reading about Tea Tree Oil on Wiki but since her leg is covered with feathers I will not use it. My I cc gives 23 drops. I've been using a three cc that gives 25 drops per cc. Thanks Karyn for the dosage info. I will decrease to 2 drops. I wonder about the 10 % Baytril I got from All Bird Product. Has anyone else used their meds? I have some Avivet Amoxicillin that I got from Jedds do you think that would be a good follow up to the Baytril treatment? I've been giving Baytril about two weeks now? Where do you get Chloramphenicol? and Aureomycin? I've been thinking feeding some type of fruit might help acidify the crop and kill off the bacteria. Does anyone know if pigeons ever eat any type of beeries or fruit? I have some probiotics that are supposed to be mixed in the water. I hesitate to put anything in the water that my cause them to stop drinking. How do you administer the vitamins?

Superflyer


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Superflyer,

Although I have not used the 10% Baytril from All Bird Products, (I do have 10% Baytril, but from a different supplier and find it easy to use), they are a reputable company and I am sure the product is as stated.

With salmonellosis, I will trust that your diagnosis is correct for your birds illness, 2 weeks of treatment on Baytril is too short a treatment period, it can take 3-8 weeks of treatment for this disease, so I would continue treatment for 2 more weeks on the Baytril, at the new correct dose, and reassess then. 

Chloramphenicol, as far as I understand it, is not readily available in the US, although if you look around there are a few pigeon fancier suppliers in Europe that have it and you could inquire from them about shipping overseas. Aureomycin, (also know as chlortetracycline hydrochloride) can be purchased at any number of pigeons suppliers here, I get many of my supplies from Jedds, here is a direct link to their Aureomycin: http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Respiratory-cln-Chlortetracycline/Categories.bok

With the ACV, please try it again, start with a teaspoon per gallon for a few days, then try 2 teaspoons, until you work your way up to 2 tablespoons a gallon. A little slower this way, but with the gradual increase over time, I think they may come to accept it in their water. I think the ACV is important, as a longer course of antibiotics treatment may lead to a potential yeast infection and the AVC will go a long way in helping to ward this possibility off.

As for vitamins I will let others weigh in, as I generally just crop tube these sort of things, bird by bird, I know this is not practical if you have a lot of birds, I don't, so others may help you out on this. As for fruit and berries, they are not really part the natural wild diet of pigeons, as far as I know, mine do like cut up Broccoli tops and cut up spinach/greens now and then, Again, perhaps others have experience with fruits and berries with these guys.

I hope this helps out a bit and good luck with them,

Karyn


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Please check this information:

Depending on the local registration in different countries, free choice has been left to the user in the past, to administer the entire daily dose of Baytril once a day (SID), or divide it into two applications (BID). 

Recent findings suggest that it is the total dose of enrofloxacin and not the dosing frequency that is significant in determining drug efficacy and therapeutic success. It has been concluded that Baytril, like other fluoroquinolones, exhibits concentration-dependent killing activity against Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens relevant for small animal practice. Maintaining sufficient drug concentrations above the MIC of the pathogen during the entire treatment interval, which is necessary for anti-infectives with time-dependent antibacterial activity (beta-lactams), is of minor importance for the fluoroquinolones. Goal of Baytril therapy therefore should be to maximise plasma peak concentrations (Cmax). *This can only be achieved when the total daily dose is administered in one single application daily. *Additionally, once daily application increases convenience of treatment and therapeutic owner and patient compliance.

Information is from Bayer
http://www.baytril.com/28/Dosage_and_Duration_of_Treatment.htm


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

plamenh said:


> Please check this information:
> 
> Depending on the local registration in different countries, free choice has been left to the user in the past, to administer the entire daily dose of Baytril once a day (SID), or divide it into two applications (BID).
> 
> ...


The last time I had to use Baytril, I was told by 2 vets that it is more effective if given - FULL DOSE, ONCE A DAY. I think I posted this once before when I found out.
As far as tea tree oil, I have read that it can be extremely toxic, so I choose not to use it.
But if I could add my 2 cents - I feel plamenh is knowledgeable and experienced at what he does. With that said........
Some medications and treatments can be lethal or disastrous if used or given improperly - simple example is heartworm injections to treat infected dogs or chemo drugs. Given at the wrong dosage or injected in the wrong location can kill. Or did anyone know that your not suppose to get Nolvasan in the eyes? 
Some treatments are better left to be used by experienced hands only.
So I understand plamenh's recommendation, he uses it, *knows how* to use it, and has had good results. 
But I also understand Dobato's concerns, it can be lethal if not used properly.
Seeing as alot of us here have the same problem - don't have a good veterinary than _can or will_ treat pigeons. We are left to our own resources.
But I do think it's very scary to recommend certain treatments "freely" to everyone. If a certain treatment or drug is debatable, I think it should be noted and given a warning about it.
Just my thoughts on this 

Oh, and one more thing (lol) - Chloramphenicol Is very difficult to find here. It was recommended to me a couple years ago, I tried to get some with no luck.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Baytril dosing instructions from Bayer.

http://www.baytril.com/images/833_g.gif


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Baytril dosing instructions from Bayer.
> 
> http://www.baytril.com/images/833_g.gif


Well there you go - that was easy


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

*Stubborn Paratyphoid Won't Leave*

I'm wondering if anybody has cared for a bird that suffered from a very swollen
paratyphoid knee and had good results. My Jeroni's leg seems as though it will
not recover. Her respiratory symptoms came back but it seemed that a dose of Baytril chased them away. My Tucu stands and he walks a little now but he has a swelling too. I wonder if continued Batril treatment will help or if there is something else I can do.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Having been through a tough situation of paratyphoid here in So Cal with a couple of our members, I can tell you that it may take as long as 30 days or more of Baytril or equivalent to rid the bird(s) of salmonella. I can also tell you that if the strain of salmonella you have is resistant to Baytril then you might have to try another drug.

Terry


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks I'll keep at it.


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