# Is this Kite Grizzle?



## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi
Is this a Kite? Grizzle? Just starting with breeding for color.

Thanks,
Jerry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes  A dose of recessive red will help the bronze really stand out.


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

*What is this?*

Hi
What is this pattern and color called (the blue and red one) and what breed would have it?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That appears to be a a blue check with indigo and unimproved ice. Those are ice pigeons and that bird appears to be an initial cross or close to it. Not full ice pigeon yet.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Is that kite grizzle a portuguese tumbler?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> That appears to be a a blue check with indigo and unimproved ice. Those are ice pigeons and that bird appears to be an initial cross or close to it. Not full ice pigeon yet.


Wow! Imagine an improved ice with Indigo added. Would look amazing. The bird in this pic is nice enough for me!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Wow! Imagine an improved ice with Indigo added. Would look amazing. The bird in this pic is nice enough for me!


Oh yes  When I start putting ice into my homers indigo is definitely one modifier I want to include. It would make it slightly more difficult not having black bars to compare but oh well!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Could the bird in the picture with the ice coud be some kind of opal instead of indigo? The tail bar looks funny for a normal indigo, but maybe that is the ice at work.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Could be  I wouldn't be surprised if they added opal in hopes of a short cut to white barred ice pigeons rather than working with toy stencil already in the breed? The pattern appears very well covered by the rust color which I guess is why I assumed indigo. But that's an awfully tiny picture!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Could be  I wouldn't be surprised if they added opal in hopes of a short cut to white barred ice pigeons rather than working with toy stencil already in the breed?


The other bird in that picture looks more like a damascene to me. So they don't have the TS and had to resort to opal?



MaryOfExeter said:


> The pattern appears very well covered by the rust color which I guess is why I assumed indigo. But that's an awfully tiny picture!


Most of my indigo's (or at least I assume they are indigo's and not opals, since the breeder said so, and I have bred ash-red mimics from them) do not have the entire pattern evenly covered by the rust color. I think it depends on other factors, like dirty (which is very prevalent in the ice breeds, but rare in my homer stock - since I don't like the look of a dirty blue bar or check).

I seriously have to try and find some clean legged ice pigeons for a breeding programme. The squab in that picture is such an interesting color!


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Yes the top photo is a PT.


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

*Ice and Danish Suabian*

Thanks to everyone  for the excellent info. My goal is to introduce these gene into my Portuguese Tumblers. Should I produce the Ice bird whit the color I want first and then add it to the Ports? 

I also want to introduce Danish Suabian color into my PT's. Thoughts on how to do that? What color of PT should I use to begin that project?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

jerryd said:


> Thanks to everyone  for the excellent info. My goal is to introduce these gene into my Portuguese Tumblers. Should I produce the Ice bird whit the color I want first and then add it to the Ports?
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> You should start with the best PT you have (probably blue bar or check would be best, since ice looks best on these birds). This PT should be mated to an ice pigeon (the best breed to use would be the one closest to your own breed in looks - if there is one), Damascenes or Ice Pigeons are usually used.
> ...


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Thank you, I will begin with indigo, opal and or almond, I can get almond PT's so I could work with those to begin with. I have a friend that has offered ma a black roller cock that caries reduced. I might play with that also, to begin. I will keep reading and learning about the others for now. Great help, Thanks. I am so glad this group and others are here to help those of us newbies. Everyone here so appreciated.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

jerryd said:


> Thank you, I will begin with indigo, opal and or almond, I can get almond PT's so I could work with those to begin with. I have a friend that has offered ma a black roller cock that caries reduced. I might play with that also, to begin. I will keep reading and learning about the others for now. Great help, Thanks. I am so glad this group and others are here to help those of us newbies. Everyone here so appreciated.


Reduced would be great too, since the split males will have at least some reduced daughters.

If I remember correctly, someone moved extreme dilute (lemon) into fantails, and only needed 3 generations or so to get rather good looking lemon fantails (though not quite up to standard yet).


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

*Is this Blue Bar?*

What color:


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks like a dark blue check with bronze (probably kite). Grizzle aswell I would think from the pic.
The overall colour especially the flights almost make it look dilute (silver) but could be my monitor. Was it short downed??


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## jerryd (Feb 7, 2011)

Did not raise him. Just acquired him. I will try to photograph his flights better, I am trying to find out what some of my new birds are to begin a color program. I have found a black male that is carrying reduced. Also my long term goal is toy stencil and oriental frill lacing?? I do have a few Blue T's and checks. 
Thank you,
Jerry


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Dirty (and probably sooty) blue grizzle showing bronze. I am not sure whether the bird is check or bar with sooty. I think I'd need a better picture of the wing shield to be sure. I think there might even be smoky here, in spite of the dark beak.

Checks have the dark part of each shield feather coming in from the left and right edges, while sooty has the dark part in the center of the feather.


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