# What do you think this is?



## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Last summer when I posted a few photos of my pigeons there was some thought that one of my cocks may have been Deroy. I had him paired with a nearly pure white blue grizzle hen. Last summer they produced 4 nearly pure white young with just a fringe of color on the tails, they all seem to be hens. 1 completely normal looking blue bar cock that unfortunately died suddenly for no apparent reason. Also 2 pale yellowish blue flecked hens. 

Here's the cock.









I am wondering if these hens are showing almond or some sort of grizzle?
This is one of the two lightly flecked pale yellowish hens. It's hard to get a photo showing the yellow color and the flecks are pretty small.









The other hen.









I am pairing the first hen with a hetero grizzle ash red split blue carrying rec red cock. Should get something pretty out of that.

Tim


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

I would say the person that made the assessment that your cock bird was Deroy was correct. The two hens both look like almonds. The one for sure is showing bar which is why she doesn't have much flecking in her. The dark blue patch on the back of her head is common in almond bred birds. In my experience some of those with those patches are not almond but only bred out of almonds.

I have two nest mate cock birds bred out of an almond hen that look very similar to the two hens in your pictures. I posted pictures of them in the Pic of the Day thread a while back.

BTW: If you want to see a better almond pattern put the hens on a T-Pattern or Dark Check cock bird. In my opinion ash red doesn't make good looking almonds.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Would the large mark on the back of the second hens head indicate pied as well?
I say grizzle for sure. But what do I know lol. Also the red bars could this be ash? I ask because I have a few of these red bars and my genetics friend says it is ash, as the male is all silver with red bars.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks Chuck. Now it makes me even more angry that the neighbors cat got that cock. Just glad I got some youngsters out of him. I would have had a perfect dark check blue hen to pair with him. 
I don't have any darker colored cocks. All of mine are either white or ash red grizzle, carrying blue and check is as good as I can do right now.

CBL I have doubts they are ash red but I know very little. I base my guess on the faint tail band showing on both. That may be way off.

Tim

Tim


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Almond*

Tim,

These first two pictures are of the cock bird I was referring too as looking like the your bar bird. As a young bird the bar did not show. BTW: The bars that show on blue black almonds are not ash red. They are bronze. The blue/black pigment is washed out to white by almond. That condition is made even lighter with grizzle in the mix. This almond cock is a year or so older now and the flecking is becoming more pronounced.

The white bird in the lower picture looks like the other bird in you picture. This bird is also almond. He carries grizzle, and he lacks the recessive red and bronze carried by his nest mate. I believe he is either checker or T-Pattern unlike the bar in the other one. His flecking is more uniform. He is a year older in this picture than the brother.

CBL, I don't think that dark splotch is caused by pied. I have seen those marks on a birds that came out of almonds a few times. The birds carrying those marks are not always almonds, but I think it is in some way closely associated with the almond gene. I once saw a recessive red mosaic marked up with marks on the back of its head and when I questioned the owner about it he indicated it was bred down from almonds. I had two out of a line of almonds that were marked up like that. Both were cock birds, and on one it was the back his head the other was ash red with a large dark splotch on the wing shield at the shoulder.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Chuck,
Very pretty birds, mine do look like they have a lot in common with them.
Earlier today I decided to put that bar 'hen' into my saved hen loft. 'She' had been in the loft I fly regularly with mostly cocks. As soon as I put 'her' in with the hens 'she' became a he, a very vocal and strutting cock he is. I thought that one was a little on the robust side for a hen. His father was the same way, I thought he was a hen because he never coo'ed or strutted around the other cocks.

Well that is good news as I have this hen to pair him with. She also carries RR. 









One question; could some of the other nearly pure white youngsters the deroy fathered last summer be almond? Some of them have a very slight fringe of color on the tail and a couple primaries. They were almost all bald babies. The hen was totally unrelated and other then being a mostly white blue grizzle I know nothing about her.

Tim


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

The blue check hen in pic is perfect for your light colored almond cock. 

The "almost white" offspring from the deroy and grizzled pair could be a combination of almond and grizzle, causing excessive whitening.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Almonds*

Tim,

tmaas is right on the almost white birds could be almond. I have had a number of those over the years. The cocks tend to get a little more marked as they age. I think this usually has to do with carrying two genes for color.

The blue check hen with recessive red is a good choice. That pair should throw some more deroys, and regular almonds. The very best matings to see a good high quality almond coloration is a blue t-pattern that carries recessive red, and some factor for kite bronze. I have only seen a very few homers that carry bronze factors. I have read that recessive red mottles also give some very good marked almonds, but I have never used that combination in breeding them.

The picture below is an example of the very best breeding I have found in my rollers to get good quality almonds. Almond washes out the blue, and leaves the bronze. As they age the blue/black comes back making some very nicely marked almonds. Rollers don't carry a very good form of kite bronze for making almond, but once in a while if you can combine T-pattern, one gene for recessive red, and a double shot of roller bronze you get some good ones.The bird in the picture is a cock, and I am keeping my fingers crossed for an almond hen out of one of the two almond cocks to put him on.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks guys.

Chuck that is a really pretty roller.
I'd love to find a kite homer but they do seem to be rare. I like how kite looks all on its own. Looking at some photos I like the looks of spread almonds too. It should be easier to find a black homer.

Looks like I have my pigeon project set for the next couple years. 

Tim


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I finally took some pics of my current kite and almond homers. The first two are of my best adult kite hen, second is a three year old almond cock who is split for brown and gets browner with each years moult, and the last one is a 6 month old cock who I think will develop into the "classic" almond expression in a couple years. What I find interesting about the last bird is that he expresses an ash tail band although he is not ash red. I have no ash red birds nor have I raised any for some years so it cannot be ash. I'm thinking it's just the almond gene in combination with the dirty gene. Take note of how the kite hen has bronzing on the head, breast, shield and flights, although I'd like to see even more.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*almond homers*

tmaas,

Those are some nice looking birds. My kite rollers look a lot like your adult hen. They usually show a lot more kite when they are young but it fades with age. It is still in there add to the almond expression when the blue is washed out.

I have paired kite to kite and gotten some birds with bronze that stays into the adult moults.

I think you are right that the young cock will moult into a classical almond color. I've never noticed the washed out tail in my almonds.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

tmaas,
That split brown bird is interesting. I like the split tail feathers.

The kite hen is a looker. I know some just see them as a means to get other color combinations but I like the looks of them. The color in the flights is cool.

I understand there are a lot of different bronzes. I have a sister to the check hen I posted above who still shows bronze/red in the bars. They both looked the same before they molted last fall. One lost all the color in the wing the other didn't. I figured it was just the RR showing through some on juvenile feathers before that. I wonder now if it some type of bronze maybe?








Or can it take a couple molts for some of them to lose this shading?

And thank you both for posting some photos. It is really helping me understand what I am looking at.

Tim


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Bronze hen*

Tim,

That hen is carrying bronze. It looks like the same weak form of kite bronze you see in rollers. If can ever get an almond cock bird off your two hens, that he would be a good one to put on it.

If you have her father, you could make more bronze birds with more bronze expression in the shield by pairing her back to him.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Tim, I've not noticed a change in kite expression in annual moults, after the initial moult from juvenile to adult plumage. I think the bronze shield hen would do well on an almond cock.

Chuck, yes it'd be nice if kite adult plumage would stay the same as their juvinile. All of my young almonds have a light color tail until they develope flecking on tail via later moults. I think this bird is expressing this tail band effect because of the "dirty" gene combined with kite, but not sure yet.


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## TimJ (Apr 24, 2008)

Cool! Thanks guys. She is actually paired up with her father right now so I will leave her with him. I wanted a couple recessive reds from them anyways.

Tim


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