# Help NPA Culls.



## becege (Mar 12, 2003)

The NPA Grand National Pigeon show will be held Dec. 7-9 at the fairgrounds in Des Moines, IA.

Many bring birds to sell and unfortunately those that are not sold are sometimes destroyed on the premises after the show and dumped in dumpsters, to be discovered later by the clean up crews---much to their consternation. 

If you wish to help find homes for the unwanted pigeons so that they are not destroyed, please contact the NPA show co-secretary, Jan Nyhus at [email protected] or at [email protected]

Some of these "culls" will be bought, but many will be destroyed.

Please help!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Are you a member of the NPA? If so, you also need to send this same message to the officers and management of the NPA. The Grand National was in San Bernardino CA last year, and I attended the event. A couple of other members here on Pigeon-Talk had birds entered in the show and ended up having to go back at night after the show was closed to try and catch birds that had escaped or been released to fend for themselves. They also ended up having to "rescue" some birds that were just simply left there in their cages by their owners. Pretty terrible in my book that someone could raise these birds, expect them to boost their own ego or inflate their pocketbook, and then just dump them .. pretty callous and also against the law. It wouldn't be a big deal .. misdeameanor .. but if someone were to be caught doing these not so nice things to the pigeons, they could be cited and fined under animal cruelty and abandonment statutes.

Also, I personally saw a pretty good number of birds that were clearly sick. It was nigh on to impossible to find an "official" to report this to and even after finding someone, I really doubt anything proper was done.

This type of thing is total c**p, IMO, and should not be condoned by the NPA nor by anyone who goes to the Grand National or any other pigeon show.

JMO.

Terry


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

Thats absolutely horrible!!!! Penalties should really be more strongly enforced. Cruelty to animals is one of the worst crimes, in my opinion, because animals can't fight back, or at least not well. They are innocent victims. I was at a dogsled pull competition once while on vacation and I witnessed extremely sick dogs who were suffereing from anything from malnutrition, open wounds from leash and colar pulls, fleas, and who knows what else. After a dog would lose some owners could be seen beating the losing dog. I dont want to say all competition owners of all animals are like this, I'm sure there are competition people who take care of their pigeons, or cats, or dogs, or whatever animal they show, but there are so many who don't. Its horrible.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

That's sick!
When I was fight off the Deptment of Natural Resouces to keep my birds I soon found out that the SPCA has control over all that. So basicly if you did actaully see the birds being killed or abanboned by the owner, they can be charged with animal crutly, neglect and previsions of needs. So in other words a nice big fine and a possible trip to the court house. 
Thought I'd let you all know about this.
Hilary Dawn


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

JUST WAIT A MINUTE HERE.I show pigeons and I resent what is being said here I have showen birds and I never saw birds killed(CULLED) at a show.You are painting all of us that show pigeons with the same brush and I for one do not like it. I HAVE TO STOP BEFORE I LOSE MY COOL I AM PISS.  .GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

becege said:


> The NPA Grand National Pigeon show will be held Dec. 7-9 at the fairgrounds in Des Moines, IA.
> 
> Many bring birds to sell and unfortunately those that are not sold are sometimes destroyed on the premises after the show and dumped in dumpsters, to be discovered later by the clean up crews---much to their consternation.
> 
> ...


BECEGE TELL ME WHAT SHOWS THAT YOU SAW THIS HAPPING OR IS THIS JUST HEAR SAY ON YOUR PART,AND IF YOU DID SEE THIS WHAT DID YOU DO TO STOP IT AT THAT TIME? .GEORGE


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*George I can*

understand you being upset on the treatment of pigeons at shows, but it isn't directed at you just because you show pigeons.

The person posting this information obviously knows this to be true, especially Terry W info... it is true what people do to these birds if not killing them on the spot, releasing and leaving them in their cages at the shows is death but in a slower more inhumane way. It is a known fact that Racers and Show pigeon owners have been known to Cull their stock.. I find it a horrible practice and I believe it should be out lawed. If life was so simply as to kill the loser so to bring forth the stronger, geez a lot of humans would of been culled.

Andi


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI ANDI, Terry did not say anything about culling.she spoke of birds being left behind. The problem as I see it is in the sales area where the FEATHER MERCHANTS(sellers of birds) are trying to get rid of their culls,and these people are the ones that leave birds behind. The thing that upsets me is talk of killing birds and throwing the body in the thash,once again I will say I have never seen it done at a show,if I did I would stop the person or persons doing it.I am not in the dark when it comes to people culling birds, and I am sure there are those that will cull their birds when they get home.We can't put a cop in everyones back yard. . GEORGE


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

george simon said:


> We can't put a cop in everyones back yard.


Hey George I understand your upset about this. I would be too if I were in the business. But non the less I'm sure what becege is saying is true. Maybe not in your area cause you guys must really care about all your birds and such but I'm sure it goes on in other places. If everyone refuses to even look at the issue (or any issue) then nothing will be done about it. This person has decided to do what they think is necessary to address this perticular issue. Unfortunately with any issue dealing with animals you WILL step on a few toes in the process. 
The other night my co-worker and I were out shopping and when we sat down to have supper she got a call from one of our shelter's ACOs. She said she was out with her kids and got a page for a cat that was tought to have been hit by a car and she didn't want to put it down with her kids with her and asked us to come down to do it. We got there and the cat was still alive but it wasn't hit by a car but had a sever case of the Rhino-virus. It was so conjested in its nose its eyes were swelled shout and had to breath through its mouth, it also had this bloody puss that came from its mouth as well. And the stinck was so bad we were gaging. I got the needles ready for the euthinzation, gave him the anistetic and when he went on his side, passed out, he stoped breathing! They're not suppose do do this, then he started to choke on some of the flem/puss. When I was quickly drawing up the last needle that will end his suffering forever I though of this :
People call us monsters because we work at an animal shelter and have to put down hundreds of animals each year. But if we're the monsters then what would you call the people who are truely responsible for these animals suffuring and eventually... their deaths?
And when I found myself at the word "death" I had just finished injecting this clear, harmless looking fluid into this beautful cat that was suffering and then I felt his heart, felt its last beat and he was gone......forever. Now where was his "owner" in this dark time. Even in this cat's suffering it still trusted me, it purred, nugged my hand so weakly it broke my heart, then I killed it. I feel absolutely horrible but I now it was the right thing to do.
These birds are no different in my eyes. These birds trust their owners and to kill, abandon them in their cages, or release them into the free world isn't what an owner should do in my eyes. 
I have another saying I like as well: "I refuse to do nothing."
I'm truelly am sorry if I offened you (and any others) but that how life goes when you work with animals and their owners.
Hilary Dawn


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## teebo (Jul 7, 2006)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> Hey George I understand your upset about this. I would be too if I were in the business. But non the less I'm sure what becege is saying is true. Maybe not in your area cause you guys must really care about all your birds and such but I'm sure it goes on in other places. If everyone refuses to even look at the issue (or any issue) then nothing will be done about it. This person has decided to do what they think is necessary to address this perticular issue. Unfortunately with any issue dealing with animals you WILL step on a few toes in the process.
> The other night my co-worker and I were out shopping and when we sat down to have supper she got a call from one of our shelter's ACOs. She said she was out with her kids and got a page for a cat that was tought to have been hit by a car and she didn't want to put it down with her kids with her and asked us to come down to do it. We got there and the cat was still alive but it wasn't hit by a car but had a sever case of the Rhino-virus. It was so conjested in its nose its eyes were swelled shout and had to breath through its mouth, it also had this bloody puss that came from its mouth as well. And the stinck was so bad we were gaging. I got the needles ready for the euthinzation, gave him the anistetic and when he went on his side, passed out, he stoped breathing! They're not suppose do do this, then he started to choke on some of the flem/puss. When I was quickly drawing up the last needle that will end his suffering forever I though of this :
> People call us monsters because we work at an animal shelter and have to put down hundreds of animals each year. But if we're the monsters then what would you call the people who are truely responsible for these animals suffuring and eventually... their deaths?
> And when I found myself at the word "death" I had just finished injecting this clear, harmless looking fluid into this beautful cat that was suffering and then I felt his heart, felt its last beat and he was gone......forever. Now where was his "owner" in this dark time. Even in this cat's suffering it still trusted me, it purred, nugged my hand so weakly it broke my heart, then I killed it. I feel absolutely horrible but I now it was the right thing to do.
> ...


you are so true,if responsible owners had there pets fixed,and properly taken care of ...you would be out of work.but there will always be ignorant people.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Teebo, I actually wouldn't mind being out of the job if everyone took care of their animals properly.
But where ever there is light there will be a shadow.
HDS


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HILLERY AND TEEBO, I do not sell pigeons its not a business with me. Once again I ask do not paint me with the same brush as those that have no compassion, most of those that I know that show pigeons are good people,but are called monsters because of a few that see only dollar signs when looking at a pigeon. I see a beautful warm creature, and when I need to put one down tears well up in my eyes. Hillery I have been offened by many in my day but that has never stopped me before and it will not now. Teebo I need no birth control for my birds .The hens are separted from the cock birds and are only put together when the need arises. I will not continue to bandy words,as I see it there are those that consider us that raise pigeons as some type of OGRE, while I thought that I could change that by coming to this forum I see that may be a HERCULEAN task. .GEORGE


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

George, take a deep breath and calm down, okay? As I stated, you must take good care of your birds, and I'm 100% sure you do, and I'm NOT "painting you with the same brush." There's two sides to everything in life.
"Hillery I have been offened by many in my day but that has never stopped me before and it will not now."
I've been deeply offened too over the year as well. I was 15 years old when I got my first bird and when I told some people at school I had a pigeon I was the laughing stock of the WHOLE school. But look at me now, I have 13 pigeons now. Do you think if we, as pigeon fanciers, listened to what other people thought of us we would still be here today. My birds give me strength and insperation. They're me friends and I absoblutely dred the day I loose another one of my belove friends. I'm still shakin up about Blue passing away in July. 
George, we are in the same business, operation, lively~hood, whatever you want to call it together; we love pigeons and that our tie. As much as you my not like me or what I have said today we are in this together. We are here on this forum to impove the quality of life for these birds, together, side by side. 
You can go on defending yourself, but I'm just saying I know where you're coming from and I know for a FACT that you are NOT one of these people of whom we are really talking about.
I am truly sorry if I have caused you as much greif as I think I may have caused from reading your last, emotional posting.
Hilary Dawn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

George,

Nobody here on Pigeon-Talk is or was painting you or Rena or Debbie or any of our members who raise and show or race pigeons as ogres or anything other than what you all are .. kind, caring, considerate, and devoted to your birds .. AND .. for sure in the case of you, Rena, and Debbie .. always willing to help out with a needy bird even if it isn't yours. I know the three of you personally, and each and every one of you is top notch in my book. I also know Ellen personally, and she is top notch. Though I don't personally know many of our other members who show and/or race, I do believe them to be equally fine examples of what pigeon fanciers should be.

So .. I'm personally vouching for those of you that I know. I hope that means something to you. There was a time when I wouldn't have trusted a pigeon fancier as far as I could throw him or her. Now I know better, have been shown I was wrong, and can have a much more open minded approach to things.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

andinla said:


> The person posting this information obviously knows this to be true, especially Terry W info... it is true what people do to these birds if not killing them on the spot, releasing and leaving them in their cages at the shows is death but in a slower more inhumane way.Andi


Thanks for the vote of confidence, Andi. I don't want to add fuel to the fire here, but it IS a fact that birds were left behind at last year's NPA Grand National .. also true that some either escaped or were let loose and just left there. Since the NPA is mostly fancy pigeons, this is not real keen that birds were left loose and flying in the area. I do understand that loose birds in the open or in huge areas like the show halls at the National Orange would be very, very difficult to catch. Still, somebody should have made the effort, and somebodies did .. our members .. Rena and Debbie.

Year before last at the LAPC Lawn Show, I personally had to approach someone who is a master breeder here in Southern California to point out that he had a bird bleeding out in a transport cage. He was almost too busy making deals and BS'ing with his buddies to even come and look. I was a bit insistent, and when he came and had a look at the bird told me that it had spooked during transport and hit its head on the top of the carrier .. an absolute and blatant untruth in my mind. It was clear that the bird was being relentlessly pecked by the other birds in the container .. very nearly to the point of death. I asked if I could buy the bird right there on the spot and was asked "Why do you want that one? There are better ones in there .. have another look". I responded that I wanted the one that was bleeding and how much would it cost. I was told that the bird I wanted wasn't for sale. I'm pretty sure that bird died very shortly after this encounter. This wasn't just mild pecking .. this bird had been mauled by the others .. indeed, it may have gotten started by a bump on the head that caused some bleeding, but it sure ended badly.

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> *I asked if I could buy the bird right there on the spot *and was asked "Why do you want that one? There are better ones in there .. have another look". I responded that I wanted the one that was bleeding and how much would it cost. I was told that the bird I wanted wasn't for sale. I'm pretty sure that bird died very shortly after this encounter. This wasn't just mild pecking .. this bird had been mauled by the others .. indeed, it may have gotten started by a bump on the head that caused some bleeding, but it sure ended badly.
> 
> Terry



Terry, that was such a nice thing you attempted to do in order to try to help this poor pigeon. This particular man sounded like he didn't want to sell you the pigeon just to spite you. Sad, that you had to witness this and were powerless to help when you wanted so desperately to.

I would also like to say George, that the people who know you in PigeonTalk would never compare you to, or think you are like a small minority of the pigeon breeders who don't take proper care of their birds. You're top notch like Terry said


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> \
> But where ever there is light there will be a shadow.


I think you put it best...I dont think we mean to generalize here, we are not saying all pigeon showers are bad...just like any situation, when there is a group of people you will have your good and your bad.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

People sometimes do forget to box a bird when they leave a show. Often it is a mistake. And sometimes people box the wrong bird. And sometimes people steal a bird. The sell pens are often full of pigeons for sale. And some at the end of a show will give away there reamianing birds. Some times shows will not allow sell pens so people sale from the show coops are the car. I have never seen birds destroyed at any show I have been. This might happen from time to time. But I have never seen it. Yes birds get loose its going to happen at many shows. And the birds are sometimes very hard to catch at times. Pigeon shows do very much good for pigeons interresting new comers. educating the public that veiws the birds. Brings people of the same interest together to share in the hobby. people come from many hundreds of mile to attend the different shows. The grand national Is a top show With some of the top breeders attending. Dealers attend many shows hoping to sell or give away birds. And breeders bring birds that get sold. That is how the hobby spreads and others improve there birds By being able to share either sell give or loan out birds. Yes we all must control our birds To improve any bird will at one time become a ---- But it does not mean it will be destroyed It can go on to help others. Yes some birds get destroyed But so does most anything bird animal or such that mankind sets a standard to and breeds. Others we will go back to pigeons will remove the bands on the birds that just do not fit any program and give them away. So they are never traced back to the breeder. As you do not want people using your rep, to promote there bird if they are not quality. So this method is a kind way to give birds that just are not useable to promote the breed at all. The useable birds find a good home every year and theses birds find a person that likes a pigeon. The sport of pigeon keeping is being challenged all the time. To make it look as a cruel sport promotes its end I would rather see a child teen or adult keep pigeons enjoy life then get on drugs in a gang go to jail play video games and be un healthy. Was a time many many people helped there kids get into pigeons kept pigeon in the backyard had things to do with the children. Shared the hobby. Now we have smaller numbers and the old timers are getting older dieing with less taking there place. Drugs are in evey town city and state Gangs are about the same children are less healthy then any time I can remember. Its not safe for children to walk to school. Perhaps just finding a good hobby no matter what Could change some things. AND as I have been told some one that keeps pigeons in there back yard well They can not be that bad. And just maybe That old pigeon Could save a life from going bad. So promote the shows the races of pigeons. And find that if you help your child or some one elses may enjoy it and grow up keeping this great sport / hobby alive for the next generations of pigeon breeders and keepers. Heck some children can not even have any pet But they can get a gun because they can hide it. They can get drugs because Because there friends do it. perhaps there friends look like a pigeon to. See what I am saying we must promte rather then put down the hobby. One bad word feeds support of the few that just hate everything.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

ROBERT, WELL SAID AND GOD BLESS YOU. I for one can say that pigeons kept me out of jail when I was a teenager living in NEW YORK CITY. I was taking care of my birds while my friends were stealing cars and robbing gas stations. .GEORGE


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Bless you Terry, for trying to buy that bird. It is a shame that some people are just out for the money, and a little life like that means nothing.

I agree with you Robert, and George, pigeons is one of the best hobbies I had as a child, and my boys grew up with pigeons in their lives as well.

We must promote the sport, especially to the kids. You never know who's life you might be saving.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I echo what Treesa said, Bless you, Terry for trying to save that poor pigeon. 

I'm new to the show scene, having only participated in two shows. But I have to say that I never saw anyone cull a bird after a show. None of the pigeons were mistreated. Several pigeons did get loose, but those working the show had a huge net and were quick to catch them and return them to their cages. We helped take the show pens down and there were definitely no pigeons left behind. I know the guys in my club and they are honorable people. I'm certain none of them would leave a bird to bleed to death or leave it behind. Unfortunately not all pigeon fanciers are as honorable, but I'd like to think most of them are. The majority of show pigeon people I've met enjoy their pigeons tremendously and are in it for the love of the birds, not money. They respect their birds and treat them well. I think the jerks are the exception, not the rule.


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## Ashbel (Jul 1, 2006)

You know, talking about pigeons saving a life and all makes me feel sad, because there are becoming less and less Pigeon Fanciers(Young ones).. I only know one other guy so far who is close to my age surrounding this city. After that is Hilary Dawn(She's a good few hours away, though). Pigeon Fanciers are becoming like War Veterans.. They're slowly disappearing and I feel so sad to imagine a near future that is virtually pigeon-free as a hobby! I try tell as many people as I can and I have plans on promoting pigeons as a hobby very soon(In public format). I'd even LOVE to start a local club and do some kind of showing at schools(Preferably elementary-middle school so I can instill this in them at an early age). 

Anyway, we all know that for the most part, people who show/race pigeons have learned to hold these birds in the highest respect and take better care of them then theirselves sometimes, heheh.  It's horrible to imagine anything ill being done to these beautiful creatures.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't know much about pigeons shows or racing but being in the rescue business, I sure know about the "bad" people out there. I believe most people care about their animals and treat them as they should. There are always the evil (if you will) ones out there who can't, won't, or don't take care of their animals, even going as far as to abuse them or treat them as property (though there are those who do care for them properly even if they are considered property). This is an inevitable battle that all we can do about is....... fight everyday in our own ways against it. This could include calling about a neighbor's abused dog, rescuing from a shelter, or attempting to buy a sick bird to rescue it. I think that all the good we all do is amazing and every little bit helps. Whenever we see an animal in need of help, it is our responsibility to step in, and* I know every person on here does that whenever possible. *

In every business that involves animals (dog breeding, pigeon racing, even guinea pig shows lol), there will be the bad people in the mix of all the people with good intentions. *Any member on here knows, of course, that George and our other racing members are highly respected and treat their birds with utmost care and concern. *I can't imagine anyone meant to say otherwise, George, just a misunderstanding I think?  

As for the original topic, which we're missing somehow, if there ARE birds that need help after this particular event, maybe we should direct our attentions at that for the moment.  Is there an idea of how many birds on average need homes?


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

I agree Maryjane, back to topic....

I would drive to Iowa on the seventh through ninth because it isn't that far, however, the following week is finals week and i doubt my professors will give me any more time to cram if I give them the excuse that I saved pigeons all weekend. Unfortunately they dont seem to be the animal loving type. However, depending on if I can get someone to go with me, I might be able to make a run up there for a day or two, most likely saturday, and being that that is the day it ends and the birds would need the most rescuing, that would be the most ideal day. I'll have to check into it further.

However, the problem posed is that I dont have the room nor the facilities to take on all of the birds that may need rescue, i could probably take one or two but any more than that would be too many. Is anyone willing to take in any birds if we happen to find any in need? I'm sure I could foster them for a few weeks until shipping or pick up got worked out (depending on how bad of shape they are in). Also, is anyone else near Iowa and willing to go as well? I think an eighteen year old girl running around a fair ground rescuing pigeons would be a bit overwhelming and assistance may be needed.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm too far away to be running over there lol, but I will help from afar if you need it. I can also take in up to 3, if need be, and will check with a friend but she may be full at the moment. Just let me know.


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

Ugh, i have a prior commitment now (something I had to do has been rescheduled) and I wont be able to go to Iowa.


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## Norwich-guy (Mar 6, 2005)

I've been going to pigeon shows for about 30 years now,All through Canada and the States, and have never seen birds culled and thrown in the dumpsters..I'm not saying that it has never happened,cause it more than likely has. I've seen many pigeon brokers, and the people they usually sell the birds to are people that "most times" don't belong to an organized pigeon club.As for seeing sick birds at the shows i've seen them and 99.9% of the time i've seen the show secretary tell the owner to removed from the show. If this kind of things happened all the time there would NOT be pigeon show anymore, I could guarantee that as some people said the animal rights would have put a stop to this long ago.


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## becege (Mar 12, 2003)

*NPA Culls*

I plan to be at the NPA Show on Sat. the 9th helping in the sales section from noon to the end. If there are any unwanted birds, I will make every effort to obtain them. If I obtain any and can't find a good home for them, I'll get back with a post.


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## jacobsshygrl (May 3, 2006)

thanks becege for keeping an eye open.


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