# canker, need help with unexpected problems please!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ok, got this one a few days ago, seemed to only have canker, pretty bad, but was hoping flagyl and baytril would do the trick. He seemed to be able to eat, sometimes too much seed would get caught up in mouth and i had to clear it out for him to eat again. The canker is in mouth, the left side, and you know how sometimes canker either appears INSIDE the flesh, or as a growth OUTSIDE the flesh, maybe thats not the best explanation because i assume it is always INSIDE the flesh. Anyways, this one is both, the throat on the left side is bulging, and the canker has grown out of his mouth, the inside of his beak, to the point his tongue and everything is pushed far to the right. I dont see any MAJOR airway obstruction from the canker. Anyways, yesterday morning gave him flagyl, and he seemed up and about, still sick looking/feeling, not totally full of energy, but was standing and walking in cage and such. Last night i came in, found water cup knocked over, and he was laying face down, wings spread, legs stiff back, head to the side, looked dead, thought he was dead, pulled him out, and could see he was alive, BARELY alive. he was wet, so i dried him off quick, put him on a heating pad, and felt him more, his poops have started to turn grass green. I gave him 10 cc thin kaytee mixed with pedialyte. Oh, his breathing was VERY slow and shallow, to the point i couldnt even feel/see respiration rate. He was falling asleep, which i though as soon as he closed his eyes he would die, so i stayed up keeping him awake and warm. About a half hour after i gave him kaytee, his breathing rate SYROCKETED!! I mean, i'm talking, and i am NOT crazy, 80-100 breaths per minute, at times he was breathing SOOO fast i couldnt even COUNT fast enough! And i wasnt just misreading it, the tail was bobbing with every breath, you could see on his back the "IN-OUT" of each breath, really, i could barely believe it myself! i wish i had a camcorder. So, after a few hours, his breathing went down to between 25-35 per minute. He seemed a bit better, still, he would try to move/walk, and would fall right on face, wings spread, which is how i usually find them when they have died.
Ok, forgot to mention, he is keeping head back like a PMV bird would, that only started when i found him last night, the beak points straight up at sky, and i REALLY think, or hope, that he is doing this to help the breathing, i think the canker has pushed on his airway. I have him across the room anyways, i cannot put him in room with known PMV in case it is just the canker, so it is a dilemma. 
So, i found him this morning same position, wings spread, head down, pooped all over himself, but, he was still alive. Tube fed him more kaytee, thin with pedialyte, 10 cc, and 20 minutes later, the SUPER fast breathing started again. I am confused here, what the HECK is going on! I need help here, anyone had this before???


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

he's still breathing like that now, it's been about an hour, also, forgot to mention, his anus is now swollen and extended out a bit, and is kind of "pulsating," like the muscle is expanding and contracting, on and on, and it doesnt match with the breaths he is taking either.
He pooped a BUNCH last night, and before that wasnt pooping much. It is still grass green, wasnt grass green before, yesterday morning it was yellowis/white chalky urates, with pea/sea green poop. The urates are still very whitish/ywlloish and chalky. Doesnt tha chalky part mean it is acnker, or starvation or something?
I cleaned hi butt of last night and the anus wasnt extended like that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds like a bad neurological component besides whatever else and, frankly, I wouldn't say he has much of a chance. Feeding him might not be the right thing to do here. What's he weigh?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, we've always believed that visible yellow gross lesions inside the beak and throat are always due to canker but that doesn't actually have to be the case. For instance, go to this wildlife field manual section regarding Salmonellosis and look at the necropsy pictures:

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_9.pdf

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cr*p Pidgey, what do i do? Let me go weigh him right now. His keel bone felt ok when i got him, and he seemed to be eating up to yesterday morning, now thew keel is more protruded. BRB, gonna weigh him. 
Umm, what is the treatment for salmonellosis? Is there one?  

Bye,
Raina


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're already on it with the Baytril. I'm not specifically saying that he's got Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid), just that it's a posssibility. Whatever this is, it's going neurological.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, he's about, or around 260 grams. I didnt weigh him when i got him, i should of, but didnt, because i thought he felt fine, keelbone wise, and he was eating. I mean, i tried to catch him for 3 days, and all he did those 3 days was eat like a madman. 
Ok, the thing did look so much like canker, and i was putting powdered flagyl on the growth in mouth and it seemed to recede a bit, but with those pictures, it is entirewly possible it is salmonellosis too.
Ok, i did make sure the forumla went through him before i did it again this morning, so it is going through. Seeing those pictures of intestines, all blackened, worries me!


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Right, i understand Pidgey. ok, have you ever heard of a bird breathing that fast though? I mean, i can barely COUNT that fast!
Assuming he lives until tonight, and assuming the fast breathing stops again, i SHOULDNT feed him? Or should i try like 1-5 cc'c and see what happens then? I'm not going to feed him when he's breathing like this though. I really cannot believe he's still alive, he really seems to want to live to have made it this far...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, sure, I've seen them hyperventilate from what appeared to be anxiety attacks. Since the bird throttles down on the breathing rate to somewhat normal, you wouldn't expect it to be due to a hemolytic anemia or a respiratory disease.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, I wouldn't give up either. I don't know if the rapid breathing has something to do with the feedings or if that's pure coincidence. I suppose you could try feeding the small amounts more often and seeing how that goes.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Pidgey, i did what you said, i felt around his vent, and cannot feel anything hard or pressurized in there to suggest broken/lodged egg or leaking fluids/food.
Ok, he isnt even holding head up now, i cannot believe he is alive, i gave 3 cc of pedialyte, with his meds mixed in, as i lift him up to look at his vent, his head rolled down and all the fluid dribbled out of mouth, so something is going on funny. He stopped holding his head back, AKA PMV like, but is now sometimes trying to flap his wings, and since it is such a pathetic attempt at it, he just kind of pushes himself along the floor, i took him out of cage, kept finding him in really weird positions, he is now in a more half circle shaped basket.
Still having fits of super high respiration. The vent is still very extended. One thing though, he was having very small sized droppings before tube feeding yesterday, today much more poop, but still very grass green, had to clean his vent and underside up, it was covered in poop, i didnt want to clean it yesterday, but as soon as he had a moment of regular breathing i cleaned it up.
Ok, i dont know what to do, i hate sitting here just watching him die. Everytime i have to leave, i am afraid of finding him dead upon return.

Wish him luck, please think of him being all better, it is heartbreaking to watch as all of you know....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i got this fancy thermometer a few weeks ago, it died today, got another one, and took my temperature, showed 98.2, so not that off, if at all, took his temp, and it showed between 94-95 degrees. What is going on? Is it possible his body is in that mode where it only directs blood to internal organs? I took it like 20 times, kept his wing down to warm it up under there, and took it in the right spot, even tried different spots. Is that even possible? I didnt believe it, thought i had another bunk thermometer, took mine again, same thing, 98.2
Do most of you guys use a mercury thermometer? They didnt have one at the supermarket, but i doubt this one is wrong because mine showed right, what is up with that? Is he just that close to death? I am starting to think he is, actually, not starting to think, HAVE known. 
He was such a sweet bird, i wish i could do something else here.....


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry this one is having such a rough time, Moxie. The body temp of the pigeon should be in the 105-107 Farenheit range, so this pigeon's temp is quite low. Along with the low body temp, the other things you are describing don't sound very encouraging. While I hope the pigeon will pull through, it doesn't sound promising right now.

Good luck to you and the bird, and please keep us posted.

Terry


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

The poor , poor bird. It must be suffering. Don't all jump on me for saying this but, wouldn't it be kinder to euthanise at this stage? I hate to think of him in pain.
Praying for you and the bird.
Sue


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Did you place him on heat, followed by hydration, when you first caught him Moxie?

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Cindy,
when i first caught him, he was eating, flying, walking, being a pigeon with quite the attitude! It took three days to catch him, i only noticed he was sick with the "lump" in throat, which looked like a canker lump, still does, but who knows what it is.
I didnt put him on heat, or hydrate right away, because he was eating AND drinking. Those 3 days catching him, he ate like a machine when i put seed out. It's been a few days that he's like this, this will be the THIRD day! 
Ok, he's still alive. How, i have no idea, i checked on him all night, and he would get himself out of his nest, but i'm afraid it is something neurological now, his head is back again, like PMV birds, and the wings seem to "flutter" a bit, almost involuntary also. When that happens, he "scoots" himself out of basket a bit. Today i found him with his head twisted around, head dropping to side, wheezing, i opened beak, and he had "phlegm" in his mouth, i had to take a q-tip and clean it out. It was like yellowish phlegm. Still having mostly grass green poops. I havent fed him since yesterday morning. I dont understand what is going on here, i am so heartbroken watching this, it is one of the single most sad things i have ever seen.
I'm gonna try to feed 5 cc, but when i do, his respiratory rate skyrockets! The HIGH respiration rate doesnt always correlate with the feedings though, sometimes it just happens for no reason...
I dont know what to do here!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you take him to that vet you have met?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

cant take him this weekend, he's closed. Also monday or tuesday cant go, dont have a ride from roomie, he's gone, and have classes/work, the soonest i could take him anywhere would be tuesday NIGHT, and the guy is closed. Already called. 
I know from the rehabber that recommended me that he will PTS if it is PMV, she has a PMV bird i gave her a long time ago, and she wouldnt take him there because of that. I dont know if it is PMV, but he is such a sad case, worse then any PMV i have seen. I mean, i've only seen a few PMV cases, but he is far worse.
I am starting to wonder if PTS is the best thing, i know, i cant even believe i am saying this, but really, i keep thinking he'll be dead in like, an hour, and he's NOT dying. So i dont know what to do.
I guess i'm just going to see if he makes it through the weekend, and then decide what to do, in the meantime, i'm at a loss.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Today i found him with his head twisted around, head dropping to side, wheezing, *i opened beak, and he had "phlegm" in his mouth*, i had to take a q-tip and clean it out. *It was like yellowish phlegm*.


From my experience, this is an indication of advanced canker. 
Could be that it's much further down than you can see.  

If you haven't done so, I would put him on heat now. 

Hoping for the best for this little one. Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

What is funny Charis, you know in Oregon, and Washington, how 30 miles is, like, nothing? Since Massachusetts is such a small state, people look at you like you are crazy when you say you need a ride 30 miles!
Oh, Cindy, he is on heat now. 
Ok, well, do you think he has a hole in crop, and food is leaking INTO him or something? I just had one like that, and he died.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Does Tuff's still have an emergency clinic in downtown Boston?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

what, i've never heard of that? Where was it Charis? Where in Boston, you remember?
Anytime i called tufts they said they are way out in western ma, forget where, but you have to sign the bird over, never to see it again....


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

What an awful situation. I feel so badly for the bird and for you Raina, in having to witness all the suffering. It sounds VERY stressful. I am really amazed by all that you do for so many sick and injured pigeons, many in BAD shape. All by yourself too. You are somethin else!! 

I think maybe YOU need a little pampering...when you get a chance you should come to NYC and let us take you out for some excellent veg meals. We are finally moving next month, so come see us after that! (actually, we may be totally broke after the move, but i can cook you some yummy meals  )

Sabina


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Ya, i keep telling myself i'm gonna take a break on the pigeons, but it never happens. What do you think of this pigeon Sabina? He is about to die, but i've been saying that for days. Does anyone here think it's best to PTS? I'm struggling with that one, and i know one place that would be more then happy to PTS, a few places, actually....


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

i mean, do you even think it is wise to tube feed anything with such a low body temp?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> what, i've never heard of that? Where was it Charis? Where in Boston, you remember?
> Anytime i called tufts they said they are way out in western ma, forget where, but you have to sign the bird over, never to see it again....


It was a 24 hour clinic...huge...downtown Boston. I don't remember exactly where.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Well, I know it's a hard decision, and we all want to give every animal the best chance possible...but I think you've done that as much as you can. I would PTS. I know easier said than done, but the bird doesn't seem to have much of a chance to recover, and has been suffering a lot. Especially since it seems like the bird's been on the verge of dying for days...you know?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

sabina said:


> Well, I know it's a hard decision, and we all want to give every animal the best chance possible...but I think you've done that as much as you can. I would PTS. I know easier said than done, but the bird doesn't seem to have much of a chance to recover, and has been suffering a lot. Especially since it seems like the bird's been on the verge of dying for days...you know?


I'm inclined to agree. 
Better than suffering.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

xxmoxiexx said:


> Ya, i keep telling myself i'm gonna take a break on the pigeons, but it never happens. What do you think of this pigeon Sabina? He is about to die, but i've been saying that for days. Does anyone here think it's best to PTS? I'm struggling with that one, and i know one place that would be more then happy to PTS, a few places, actually....


I'm so sorry to hear about your bird.
A couple years ago I was loosing young birds, which from your description, the same way. There aren't any good avian vets in my area. The vets I did talk to told me to give baytril and whatever. I pulled another young bird out of my loft with the same "growth" in the mouth. Crooked beak, trouble eating, stretching neck up (to breath I assume). I had read on a veterinary network that metronidozole was the best treatment for canker. So I figured what do I have to loose - none of the meds that vets were giving me were working and my birds were dying. I had 250mg metronidozole tablets for my dogs on hand. So I broke off small pieces (to get about 30mg) and popped it down her throat twice a day. On the second day of treatment that "yellowy growth" popped out of her mouth. I don't know if its too late - but its worth a try. Best wishes


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Charis said:


> I'm inclined to agree.
> Better than suffering.


 Me too, for what it's worth.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Raina, are you certain that this pigeon is a he? Some of the symptoms that you have described sound like egg binding. Mary found a pigeon that was egg bound a few years ago and she was "diagnosed" on the forum as having been poisoned because she was having fits (this could account for how you found it and for the sudden rapid breathing) , but her vent was pulsating. It won't hurt to treat as if egg bound.

*legs are totally straight back and stiff like wood if i lay her on her stomach she opens her wings and starts shaking like crazy like and opening her mouth as if she can't breath and she is dying, i must hold her straight up to breath...

What could this be she was sitting in the water bowl outside and then started rolling out and off the balcony until she landed on her back downstairs..*

The pigeon survived

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=1593&referrerid=560

As a rule, deposits forward from base of the beak are more likely to be pox than canker. those backward from the beak are more likely to be canker than pox. Pox is generally flatter than canker. My Piglet had both pox and canker, not an unusual combination, and he had yellow phlegm, he would shake his head and send a lump of phlegm flying across the room.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

This bird's been on Metronidazole and Enrofloxacin for a few days now (3-4, I think, at this writing). I talked to Moxie just a few minutes ago and he's certainly trying to hang on. We worked on some way of getting the bird warmer as well as kept in a position so that it won't aspirate food and liquids. I'm getting ready to post something about Kaytee and how much the bird probably needs in order to maintain weight and the immune system.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Cynthia,

Moxie did say that the vent looked a little swollen but after a lot of feeling around in the back end, she determined that there didn't seem to be anything unusual in the abdomen. She spent some time feeling the other birds trying to get an idea of what they normally feel like back there. Just not sure on this one.

Pidgey


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> This bird's been on Metronidazole and Enrofloxacin for a few days now (3-4, I think, at this writing). I talked to Moxie just a few minutes ago and he's certainly trying to hang on. We worked on some way of getting the bird warmer as well as kept in a position so that it won't aspirate food and liquids. I'm getting ready to post something about Kaytee and how much the bird probably needs in order to maintain weight and the immune system.
> 
> Pidgey


Oh, sorry I missed that. I know its a horrible thing to watch the suffering, I hope he (she) makes it.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

What exactly is the treatment for egg binding?
I'm out for a few hours, we'll see if he/she survives until i return.
I gave 10 cc of pedialyte with kaytee, very thin, with his meds. He didnt go into respiratory distress this time.
Some good news, his temperature is up between 101-103 now, so lets hope it stays like that, or keeps going up!
This one wants to live, there is no mistaking it. He is having severe neurological symptoms...


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> she determined that there didn't seem to be anything unusual in the abdomen. She spent some time feeling the other birds trying to get an idea of what they normally feel like back there. Just not sure on this one.


Mary didn't think that there was an egg either. And I couldn't feel anything wrong with Cilla when she was egg bound . I don't think calcium etc would do any harm.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> What exactly is the treatment for egg binding?


Give it a couple of drops of calcium syrup, put it on a heat pad or you can soak it in warm water.

If there is a sign of an egg you can lubricate the cloaca or give it liquid paraffin (I can't remember what you call that...mineral something?)

I hope that you are able to do something for it before you go out because it sounds as if it could be in terrible pain .

OPh, and handle it gently. If there is any possibility of a pigeon being egg bound the last thing that you want is for the egg to break.

Cynthia


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## little bird (Aug 11, 2006)

Raina, in my 40 years dealing with pet owners and their aging and disabled pets, I have been asked countless times if I thought the animal should be PTS....My answer was and still is......only the person closest to the animal is qualified to make that judgement.....and if the moment comes, you and the animal will realize at the same time. As long as it is fighting, then don't give away its' life. It's a tough call, but you have proven again and again....you are one tough gal.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

little bird said:


> As long as it is fighting, then don't give away its' life. It's a tough call, but you have proven again and again....you are one tough gal.


It's kinda' funny, isn't it? Usually people think that the toughest folks are the ones who can walk by suffering and not bat an eye. But to us, the toughest folks are the ones who will try to help in the most hopeless situation. Why is it that the softest hearts are so often made of the strongest steel on earth?

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hmm well my answer about the PTS issue was based on the fact that there had been NOTHING hopeful happening, from what I could see. But if the temp has gone up, that is hopeful. And also if this could be from egg-binding, that seems a little hopeful that this could resolve. So...hoping for the best!
Sabina


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the bird's still pooping. There are a couple of different kinds of egg-binding, and (I think) the one that's usually life-threatening is when the egg is stuck in such a way that urine gets backed up into the kidneys with no relief. If the eggs are stuck in the actual oviduct then it's a different story--I've had a few of those.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anyway, I wanted to post some information for Moxie regarding how much to feed the bird so that it can maintain its energy level. The formula goes something like this:

(Taxonomic Constant) * (weight in kg)^0.75 * 1.5 * (Physiologic Factor) = Kcal/24 Hours

For pigeons, the best information that I've been able to find is 78.3 on the Taxonomic Constant. The Physiologic Factor comes from a table:

Physical Inactivity = 0.7 to 0.9
Head Injury = 1.0 to 2.0
Hypometabolism = 0.7 to 0.9
Severe Trauma = 1.1 to 2.0
Starvation = 0.5 to 0.7
Sepsis & Burns = 1.2 to 2.0
Mild Surgery = 1.0 to 1.2
Growth = 1.5 to 3.0

So, for this bird (that weighs about 250 grams, by the way) we'd tend to choose a couple of the physiologic factors and combine them. If we picked the Starvation and the Sepsis (infection) ones, we'd say 0.5 to 0.7 for the one and 1.2 to 2.0 for the other. If we pick the middle of each at 0.6 and 1.6, respectively, and multiply them together we'd get 0.96 (call it "1").

Therefore, we'd end up with:

78.3 * 0.25^0.75 * 1.5 * 1 = 41.5 Kcals, which is the same as 41.5 Calories (1 food "Calorie" = 1,000 physics calories, which is a "Kcal"). 

Dry Kaytee is about 10 Calories to the level teaspoon, so we'd want to put about four (4) dry teaspoons of Kaytee through the bird in a 24 hour period. Now, that doesn't have anything to do with how thin the stuff is mixed or how often the meals are spaced--that's gotta' be determined by the person with the bird in hand due to whatever circumstances are involved.

Pidgey


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## BirdDust (Feb 8, 2008)

You will also see the same symptoms with internal canker. Canker can adhere and grow on internal organs too. Mostly you see it in the mouth or face area. It could be also be deeper down the crop where you cannot see it but it's there. Keep the bird on flagyl. I have used Sulmet with flagyl for possible paratyphoid, sour crop and coccidiosis. Used very small amounts of water with medication to prevent some of the vomiting. I'm thinking the canker is in the intestinal tract. That is why you see the vent swollen. I had two birds like that and they actually passed the canker. There might be some bleeding too rectally. I don't think it is an egg.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i'm gonna have to get liquid calcium tomorrow, didnt get the post before i went out. I have a bit left, so will use that. Need some more anyways. GNC should have it, yes?
Cynthia, are you thinking of mineral oil? I've never heard of liquid parrafin, could it be called something else here? I mean, is it just supposed to be something oil based? Could i use some olive oil for now? 
I just tube fed again, as soon as i got home, before i even read this, 10 cc of pedialyte mixed with kaytee.
Some good news, his temp is now up to 106.2
I had to burrito wrap him pretty good, his slight wing fluttering was scooting him out of the basket into weird positions. I also did it in a way to keep his head upright.
I cleaned his vent area, didnt think it was good to have poop sitting on such an irritated vent. The vent is still "pulsating." The poops are still mostly grass green, but there is a bit more sea/pea green mixed in. When i washed his vent, a big glob of liquidy white urates only came out. The urates, when i was wiping off the poop, turn chalky pretty quick. 
He seems to be able to hold the food better then last night, hopefully it will keep up.
Thanks you guys for the support, i felt like giving up earlier, but the higher body temp is something. I think, whatever he has, it is something neurological. His head is back like PMV birds, but it rolls side to side like Stevie Wonder does, back and forth, back and forth. Also, the wing fluttering seems neurological, he doesnt actually flap the wings, it just kind of flutters a bit. He cannot stand up, sometimes he tries to push himself along with his legs, but never to the point of standing himself up. Oddly enough, he seems to do that when he needs to go to the bathroom, as sick as pigeons get, they still dont like to poop on themselves i guess.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*egg binding*

You can use a drop of olive oil.

Steam from hot shower also helps a bird that is egg bound, if that is actually what it is. Just don't get the bird too close, but humid air helps.

With that back and forth head rolling, is it possible the bird may be suffering from trauma and maybe blind?


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i dont want to actually stick anything up the vent, i have no clue what the heck i am doing. So i'll just give a drop of olive oil in his food.
Ok, his head rolling back and forth just stopped for now, and i scratched the top of his head and he shook it real quick as if to say, "that tickles! Get it off!"
I am so hoping he's gonna be ok, everytime i leave i think i'm gonna find him dead upon return. My roommate and his GF arent very cool with the pigeon thing, but even they are asking about this guy (or gal!)
Ok, i dont know what else i can do here. Birddust, you said you added Sulmet to your birds meds when sick, what is Sulmet? 
Ok, wanted to mention the growth, i dont know whether it is canker or pox, or salmonel;losis, but the growth in mouth isnt flat per say, but isnt a huge growth like thing like some canker i have seen. It does extend into the throat, i'll have to get some pics later. Its hard to explain. I see the growth in the mouth, but it actually extends to the throat not by the path of the mouth, it is under the skin in mouth, i know it extends to throat because there is a huge lump right under the growth in mouth, but in the throat area, the top of throat. Does that make sense at all?
The growth seems to have receded a bit in mouth. There is a part that looks kind of more dried out. It didnt look like that at first, but it almost looks like a scab in one part now, in the mouth.
I'll try to get pics later, but considering his condition, i havent wanted to mess with anything. Just trying to keep him comfy, not a kodak moment i'm afraid...
Treesgray, I had this bird for a few days before these bad symptoms started shwoing. He just appeared to have canker at first, and was acting like a regular feral pigeon. Eating, slapping me, pooping, drinking, standing. This is the third day now. Technically it has been since late thursday night. Thursday morning he was fine. So, i dont know what time thursday it started, as i found him like that, but it has been somewhere over 48 hours that i've KNOWN he's been like this...
I think it must be neurological from whatever he has. I mean, it could be anything i guess, but he wasnt blind at first, he always saw me comin'!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sulmet is a "Sulfa" drug, specifically Sodium Sulfamethazine, 12.5%. It's essentially half of the other drug that you have called the "Divet" tablets, which are part Sulfa drug and part Trimethoprim. That's why it's often called a "Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo". It's more powerful than a Sulfa drug alone and is packaged for individual dosing whereas the Sulmet is actually intended to put in the main watering system for an entire poultry house.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The swelling and the phlegm sounds like canker, he could also have in addition meningitis or encephalitis or PMV.
Is he also on any other antibiotic other than Flagyl?
This bird sounds to be in such a horrible condition, poor thing. 

Reti


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Reti, he is on Fagyl and Baytril.
Pidgey, should he be on Divet too, or will that do any good?
Reti, what is the tretment for the things you mentioned besides canker?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think we've got an indication that he should be on Divet at this point. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be--just that we're not really sure exactly what he's got. I'd probably wait another few days to see how he responds to the Baytril, warmth and his own immune system fighting whatever battle it's fighting. If he continues as he is but is still in roughly the same shape, I'd probably consider switching.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Like Pidgey mentioned, wait another day, then change antibiotic, that is whatever he has is bacterial (bacterial). If it is viral, there is not much you can give other than supportive care.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Moxie,

Yes, liquid paraffin is mineral oil. It isn't absorbed by the body or digested so it acts as an excellent lubricant as it passes through the digestive tract. 

Cynthia


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

I am sorry to say this one passed sometime within the last few hours. I was up late doing homework, and checking in on him. I thought he was doing a bit better last night, but whatever he had was one bad bug. I got up around 7 to check on him, he was the same. Went back in about 1/2 hour ago, he had died. 
I have to go bury him in a bit, it is just really sad because of how hard this guy fought! I've never seen a person, let alone an animal, fight so hard to live! Sometimes sheer will wont pull you through though. I want to thank everyone for the help they gave me on this one, i appreciate it greatly.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I am sorry to hear that. He sure did fight hard and I was continually surprised that he kept going for as long as he did. Rest in Peace, little one.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks Pidgey, and thanks for doing everything you did to help this one, i appreciate it.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I am so sorry Moxie - for both you and the bird.

In my prayers.
Sue


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry he lost the fight. I was hoping for a miracle.

Reti


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## Tilly (Feb 16, 2008)

I don't want to make you feel bad xxmoxiexx because you did everything you could to save this bird. I'm glad his struggle is finally over because from all you said I think he was suffering very much.
I don't think I could have watched that.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry this brave pigeon didn't make it, Moxie. Thank you for trying so hard to save it.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Raina, I am so sorry. Poor little guy fought the good fight and you did too. We have one in right now that I'm afraid may not make it either but as we always say....do the best we can.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Yes, I was told that there had been some as bad or worse then this guy that did make it. Of course, if this had been something that went on much longer then a few days, PTS would be an option i would ponder. I too was hoping for a miracle, and seeing him make it JUST past that first night was a miracle in itself. He was a wonderful pigeon, wanted to live so bad. He sure gave me strength just by his will to live. Pigeons are tough little numbers, and it is so inspirational to see them survive such tragic things, but sometimes it just doesn't work out like that. I do hope he is flying free somewhere now...
Thanks everyone for your support, i REALLY do appreciate it!


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Sorry Raina, I know you tried so hard. Poor birdie, am glad his suffering is over.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Raina. You both fought valiantly. 

Cynthia


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