# Grizzles and color modifiers



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I've read through some other threads here and Huntley's website but I still can't quite grasp color modifiers, particularly grizzles (of which I have a few in my loft). Everytime I think I know what I'm going to get out of one, I find myself surprised.

For example, I have a grizzle cock (which I assume to be homozygous) that gave me 100% grizzles when paired with a brown spread hen. He gave me a blue check and a blue check splash when he was mated to a red check hen. Does that mean he's likely a blue check under the grizzle? Is the grizzle gene dominant over the brown, but then the blue check seemed to dominate over the grizzle?

Here's the cock:








I have a hen, who looks exactly like the cock bird mentioned above, and I assumed that she also must be homozygous for grizzle (she is mostly white). But she just threw two blue bars when mated to a blue bar. When she was mated to a blue check WF pied, she threw a solid white, a grizzle, and two blue bars. Does this mean that she is heterozygous for grizzle and probably a blue bar underneath the grizzle? 

Does grizzle have any dominance over anything? In other words, how do these things work??????

Here is the hen:


----------



## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

Hey David! I dont claim to know much about the genetics and color modifiers in our pigeons, but the WGRZ I sent up to you, had a BB Sire and a WGRZ Dam, just like your hen you posted.... The nest mate was also a WGRZ! Last year, this same pair produce BB and WGRZ youngsters. I read somewhere that if you mate a WGRZ to BB, youll get both WGRZ and BB babies.


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

I have a small grizzle project going on here and so far pair 1- BBC X GRIZH, I got out of two round 2 griz, 1 BB 1,BC pair 2- BBC X a darkGrizH one round 1 BCWFT,1 darkGRIZ pairr 3- solid blackCock X WGRIZH 2 rounds 2 TigerGriz's,1 Black and white splash,1 solid white pair 4 - TigerGrizC X BBH one round 1 Black splash,1 TigerGRIZ and they are on their second round now hoping for another TigerGRIZ to add to the program next year .


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If you have gotten any non-grizzles at all from it, then he is not homozygous grizzle. He's het grizzle, possibly het tiger grizzle, but definitely a splash to make all the white.


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If you have gotten any non-grizzles at all from it, then he is not homozygous grizzle. He's het grizzle, possibly het tiger grizzle, but definitely a splash to make all the white.


MaryOfExeter if one breeds tiger to tiger whats the ratio of more tigers overall ? How does one get totally all tiger grizzles ?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If one of the parents are homozygous (pure/two copies of the gene) for tiger grizzle, then all the babies will be tigers. If both parents are heterozygous (one copy of the gene) tiger, then you'll get 25% pure tiger, 50% het tiger, 25% non-tiger. Same thing goes for classic (regular) grizzle.


----------



## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If one of the parents are homozygous (pure/two copies of the gene) for tiger grizzle, then all the babies will be tigers. If both parents are heterozygous (one copy of the gene) tiger, then you'll get 25% pure tiger, 50% het tiger, 25% non-tiger. Same thing goes for classic (regular) grizzle.


 Thanks I think Im going to have to work on this for a while before I get my tigers to be homozygous for tiger as the most I can do is heterozygous pairings right now being that all my tiger grizzles are male based unless I breed them back to the original mother and I dont have the heart to break up that pair since they throw off such beautiful offspring as it is .


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If one of the parents are homozygous (pure/two copies of the gene) for tiger grizzle, then all the babies will be tigers. If both parents are heterozygous (one copy of the gene) tiger, then you'll get 25% pure tiger, 50% het tiger, 25% non-tiger. Same thing goes for classic (regular) grizzle.


Soooooo, in other words, if a grizzle is homozygous, it will dominate all other colors from it's mate and give 100% grizzle babies?


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Timber said:


> I read somewhere that if you mate a WGRZ to BB, youll get both WGRZ and BB babies.


Perhaps my grizzle hen and the bb will will give me a grizzle eventually, then. I was just a bit surprised when both babies were bb. I guess it's all a matter of percentages and they could play out at any time!


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

dstephenson said:


> Soooooo, in other words, if a grizzle is homozygous, it will dominate all other colors from it's mate and give 100% grizzle babies?


------
Yes


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Are my blue grizzles really either bar or check underneath the grizzles? And that in turn would determine what pattern their non-grizzle babies would be?


----------



## loonecho (Feb 25, 2010)

*What a photo!*

I can't add anything of any value here as Mary covers these topics so well. However, I did want to say, What a fantastic picture of your hen up there. Beautiful bird and outstanding photography. Well done!

Loonecho


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Thanks loonecho! My birds make great subjects for my camera. Never gets old.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

dstephenson said:


> Are my blue grizzles really either bar or check underneath the grizzles? And that in turn would determine what pattern their non-grizzle babies would be?


Yes  All pigeons are either barless, bar check, or t-check underneath their modifiers.


----------



## meatcutterss1 (Oct 17, 2011)

Have a question. My kids bought me my first 2 Birds for Father's Day. The Hen is brown, the Cock is a Red Check with black specks. The Hen has one color gene correct? So all of her baby cocks will come out Brown or one type of Red? The Cock has two color genes Red & Black right? So the baby hens will come out blue checks ? I have no history on them, just that the offsprings should be strong at short & medium distance races.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

You should make a new thread and include pictures. Your descriptions of the birds and what they are genetically classified as could be two different things.


----------



## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

meatcutterss1 is the hen brown? thats a rare colour for a racer. could she be a silver (dilute blue)? they often look brown or a red of some sort? a pic would be great. 

also if the cock is a red check and has black flecking we know he carries blue.

If the hen is brown and the cock is red carrying blue they will have 

blue hens, red hens, blue cocks carrying brown and red cocks carrying brown.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

The hen has only one color gene, denoted b//- and the cock has 2 color genes, denoted B^A/B+

b - Brown
B+ - Blue
B^A - Ash-red

If you mate the birds, the mother would contribute either the brown gene (b) or no color gene at all (-), the male would contribute either blue (B+) or ash-red (B^A).

The combinations are: 
B+//b, blue cock carrying brown
B^A//b, ash-red cock carrying brown
B+//-, blue hen
B^A//-, ash-red hen.

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

It is probably a good idea to read up on sex-linked inheritance for more details. Just google pigeon genetics, and you will find a lot of good sites out there.


----------



## meatcutterss1 (Oct 17, 2011)

You are right, let me try to post the pictures. Thanxs


----------



## meatcutterss1 (Oct 17, 2011)

Thank You , I will have to read more about genetics. Thanxs


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Your grizzle parent may be heterozygous tiger grizzle and het. classic grizzle and pied and het. rec. white all in same bird. That would explain the progeny color variation. Also note that not all grizzle birds express the effects obviously, look closely at the shaft/base color of the wing flight feathers on your blue offspring and you may find grizzling. Hope this helps.


----------

