# wet yellow vent, less energetic-disease ID?



## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Not sure what could cause this. This is for my white homer named "free bird". I think hes eating okay. His vent looks wet and yellow. Feathers also dont look smooth.
Edit: hes thin too


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

You should take the pigeon away from the others and monitor how he's eating and drinking first. Some pics of poop would help.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Dima said:


> You should take the pigeon away from the others and monitor how he's eating and drinking first. Some pics of poop would help.


I must have been setting up his hospital cage as you were replying  now that he has been separated, i should be able to get a pic of his poo. He also seems thin. I can feel his breast bone, on the others, i cant.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Wet, yellow vent makes me think canker and it is the time of year when the pigeons tend to be more vulnerable to a canker infection. I agree It's a good idea to monitor him to make sure he's eating and drinking.
Often birds with canker infection drink a lot of water. They also can have odd looking feathers. If you have any canker medication, I think it would be a good idea to start treatment. If you don't have canker medication, perhaps your neighbor can get you some.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

hopefully this pic uploaded. u can see his feathers and the yellowy/watery diarrhea


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

if it is canker, what can happen to him? how long till he dies if left untreated (which we do plan to treat him, but we have to get the medicine first)


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Is he eating on its own? This could be also sign of starvation. Can you please start handfeeding him. First hydrate him, then feeding.
For visible canker signs you should check his throat.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Dima said:


> Is he eating on its own? This could be also sign of starvation. Can you please start handfeeding him. First hydrate him, then feeding.
> For visible canker signs you should check his throat.


He is eating on his own, theres food in his crop, i dont want to risk over feeding him if he is doing it on his own for now. But ill definately be keeping an eye on his food intake. Why could he be starved? Could other birds be bullying him away from the food?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Birds can die of canker, so the sooner you get meds for that, the better. Canker may or may not be the main problem here, but it is definitely a good idea to treat for it.

He could be being bullied, if he isn't feeling well -- birds often go after the weakest member of a flock.

More likely, he just doesn't have a lot of appetite, and isn't eating enough -- though some illnesses can cause severe weight loss even when a bird is eating fairly well. 

Is there a solid portion to his poop, or is it just the yellow urates? Yellow urates indicate a strain to the liver, generally.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Also, are you sure this bird is male? I'm trying to rule out the possibility of egg problems. 

How old is this guy?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Not sure at all if he is male. Hes about 5 months (ish) and hasnt mated yet. There is just the one poo in the cage, but there is no solid, just yellow.

I suppose he could be bullied. Hes definately the weakest bird. He got attacked by a hawk and is now flightless (he successfully walked home with a huge chunk under his wing missing though, talk about determination). Hes been through alot and id hate to lose him :/ by far my favorite bird.

We have a 6 in 1 medicine, we are using it because we dont have meds for canker right now but this one treats canker. I know med combos arent the best but its something

Edit: he pooed a solid poo, so out of like 4, theres one with a little solid in it


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

How long ago was the hawk attack? That's an amazingly brave little guy! 

What is in the 6 in 1? Can you post the ingredients and the amounts of each? Some are better than others....

What does the solid poo look like? 

I'm concerned about possible egg binding, if this is a hen. They sometimes do start laying even if they aren't clearly mated, and this is about the right age for that to happen. 

One thing you can do is give a warm bath to the hind end, and use moist heat under the bird (damp washcloth on a heating pad) ... and also give a calcium and vitamin d supplement -- the kind for humans are okay -- do you have any on hand? If so, what dose?

These things won't hurt if egg binding isn't the problem, and they do help a lot if that's the issue. 

Any swelling that you can see, or breathing issues?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Free bird----i rememeber now.
Squeker you gotta do your best. She's my favorite. She the one with homing instinct stronger than any othe rbird because she walk home...

Do what Minimonkey said with heatingpad and vitamins. 250 mg Ca& D3 cut it in 4 and give a piece in the morning and one in the evening. It wouldn't be bad to handfeed her defrosted peas now, even though she is eating on her own. 10 or 20 as much as she takes ..Peas are high in proteins and wouldn't give any side effects.

I call her She ( thinking she 's a hen) since with the attack issue.

Best of luck.

PS Remember we discussed that before 6 in 1 or 3 in 1 or 2 in 1 are not good. Not for a sick bird as Free Bird


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> How long ago was the hawk attack? That's an amazingly brave little guy!
> 
> What is in the 6 in 1? Can you post the ingredients and the amounts of each? Some are better than others....
> 
> ...


Oh the attack was a few months ago, but it gets more impressive  i accidentally let him out less than 36 hours after being in my loft. He got out and hung around the area for about 3 days, then got attacked way out in the field behind my house and walked home from about 1/2 mile away from where he got hit.... all this after only having him less than 2 days in my loft and no trap training or loft flying (well i guess he did for those 3 days lol). Hes my favorite, im considering bringing him in the house tomorrow if it would be better for him than the garage.

As for the 6 in 1, im really not sure whats in it. I went to a small local pigeon supply store and they sold it to me with a computer printed label, im assuming they buy in bulk, but canker is listed as the second thing it will cure, if that helps.

The solid poo is sort of an army green color.

Does it still need a bath if there is nothing caked on his bum? It looks clean, just wet. I dont have any human vitamins, but perhaps i will buy some. What doseage and mg should i give and how much and how do i give it to her/her


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Dima said:


> Free bird----i rememeber now.
> Squeker you gotta do your best. She's my favorite. She the one with homing instinct stronger than any othe rbird because she walk home...
> 
> Do what Minimonkey said with heatingpad and vitamins. 250 mg Ca& D3 cut it in 4 and give a piece in the morning and one in the evening. It wouldn't be bad to handfeed her defrosted peas now, even though she is eating on her own. 10 or 20 as much as she takes ..Peas are high in proteins and wouldn't give any side effects.
> ...


I know 6 in 1 isnt the best, but its all i have for the thanksgiving weekend 

So just to make sure i got the doseage right... i can take a 250 mg calcium pill and give 1/4 of the tablet 2x per day, so he gets a total of 1/2 a pill for the entire day and i do the same ammount with vitamin d3?

I love free bird, hes so special. im so done with the heart ache with this bird. If he makes it, hes going to be a house bird! Im so not even kidding. I love all my birds, but freebird is the one i can immediately pick out of the pure white flock because ive spent so much extra time with him while he healed from his injury and extra time taming him. Hes a pet like my cat and dogs are, the other birds arent quite to that level, but he is


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I thought you have Ca & d3, usually it comes together. If you have it separate, then give D3 half the dosage of Ca.
Yes 1/2 pill a day divided in 2 doses, one morning , one evening..you can start now. Lower the amount after 2 -3 days. 
If you have bird vitamin, you can put in the water.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Dima said:


> I thought you have Ca & d3, usually it comes together. If you have it separate, then give D3 half the dosage of Ca.
> Yes 1/2 pill a day divided in 2 doses, one morning , one evening..you can start now. Lower the amount after 2 -3 days.
> If you have bird vitamin, you can put in the water.


Ive never bought human vitamins so i dont know how they come :-} ill see if i can pick some up in the morning


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pigeon vit are good too..
Take advise from Minimonkey or Charis in regards to medication/antibiotics.
metronidazole treats Canker. What human antibiotic you have on hand?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you not ask your neighbor for some metronidazole? 
Clearly the bird isn't eating enough and you need to hand feed to help him/her.
I'm going to give you some prewritten feeding instructions.

If you are seeing bright green or yellow droppings, it's likely the b ird isn't eating or eating enough and you will need to hand feed.
You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-40 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the baby [ sick pigeon]is eating enough on his own. After a couple of feedings, most squeakers get the hang of it, pick up the peas on their own and naturally transition into a seed diet.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I have indoor pigeons that sit in my lap and cuddle  

The thing that worries me about the 6 in 1, in addition to possible under dosing, is that these often contain wormers that can weaken an already weak bird, so they can be worse than nothing at all. 

See if you can find a combined calcium and vitamin d supplement. CVS carries them ... most drug stores do. It's okay to dose vitamin D up to 1 iu per gram of body weight (so, a 400 gram bird would get 400 IU of vitamin D3.) Calcium is a lot more forgiving in terms of dosing, but try to find the lowest human dose you can find.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, this is a pretty sad way to start a thanks giving  freebird died before i had a chance to treat him. We were going to let him calm down for the night in the new cage. I seriously doubt ill be eating turkey. But the 6 in 1 doesnt have a wormer in it.

Edit: hes actually alive right now ??? I just went back outside and saw him, looking as normal as ever. But i think this is his last ditch effort on life, im assuming he will fully pass in his sleep, at least i truely hope he dies peacefully


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

God what a wierd bird! Last night freebird was deadder than a door nail. Face down with wings spread out, we were deciding where we would burry him this morning, so i went back outside and he was alive. Like i said in my previous post last night, i thought it was his last ditch effort on life and i thought he would die in his sleep..... WELLLLLLLL.... this morning hes still alive! Im so blown away right now.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please don't leave him outside. He needs to be inside and kept warm. Warmth can go a long way toward keeping a sick pigeon alive.... that and keeping the pigeon hydrated. Hand feeding the warm defrosted peas will buy the pigeon some time.

Really...your multi medication is worthless. All it will do is make your birds resistant to the medications in it and that wouldn't be a good thing to happen.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you care as much about him as you say, then why is he outside in the garage? He should be inside, and on a heating pad, set on low, and a small towel over the pad. As Charis has asked, can you not ask your neighbor for help in getting the meds? He made it through the night, but if not treated, he will die. I would get him on a canker med, and a good antibiotic. He may not have much time.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I really agree with Jay, here. Heat and supportive care go a very long way!

I'm very glad he's alive -- please bring him in and nurture him! 

If you can get a hold of metonidazole and something like Baytril, that would be ideal. 

I'm in the bay area -- if you are willing to drive down here tomorrow, I can give you meds. PM me if you would like that.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Well mini monkey...maybe you can pop some meds in the mail tomorrow and over night them.


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## poison (Nov 20, 2012)

Salmonellosis?
look at this if you can found it in USA
chloramphenicol-N by chevita Germany
http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chloramphenicol-n.php


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> Please don't leave him outside. He needs to be inside and kept warm. Warmth can go a long way toward keeping a sick pigeon alive.... that and keeping the pigeon hydrated. Hand feeding the warm defrosted peas will buy the pigeon some time.
> 
> Really...your multi medication is worthless. All it will do is make your birds resistant to the medications in it and that wouldn't be a good thing to happen.


He is inside. We brought him in last night when we saw him still alive. We will take your advice on the meds, peas and water. Thank you


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> If you care as much about him as you say, then why is he outside in the garage? He should be inside, and on a heating pad, set on low, and a small towel over the pad. As Charis has asked, can you not ask your neighbor for help in getting the meds? He made it through the night, but if not treated, he will die. I would get him on a canker med, and a good antibiotic. He may not have much time.


His driveway is really long and hes the type to let out a few shots from a shotgun to warn you off his property, which scares me. So i have little choice but to wait till the office is open. But he is inside and keeping warm right now. I do care about him, i just dont have much experience in caring for sick birds. I am new at this


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## poison (Nov 20, 2012)

''Salmonellosis (Paratyphus)

Salmonellosis has one of the highest mortality rates of any infectious bacterial disease of pigeons.

Pathogen:
Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen, designated as the "pigeon type" salmonella strain.
Given the right conditions, the bacterium can remain infective in the environment for 1 year or more.

Salmonellae are spread by:

inhalation of dust containing the pathogen
contaminated feed (insects, mice, rats)
dirty feed troughs and water bowls
mating
transmission from the hen to the egg
feeding the nestlings with infected crop milk and billing
chronic carriers: pigeons that appear healthy after surviving salmonella infection, but shed the pathogen at irregular intervals and thus pose a risk to the current flock and their progeny.

Clinical signs:
Acute form (mainly affects young pigeons):

Enteritis with pulpy, mucoid, greenish droppings; once organs (liver, kidneys, spleen) have become infected, there is growth retardation, emaciation and (in isolated cases) death. Embryos infected with salmonellae frequently die in ovo or during the first few days of life.

Chronic form (mainly affects adult pigeons):

Inflammation causes a thickening of the joints, especially the elbow joint, wing or leg lameness, disorders of balance and torsion of the neck. Recognition of the disease: Bacteriological examination of faecal and/or organ samples. An antibiogram is performed to determine which medication is suitable for treatment purposes.

Similar conditions:
Paramyxovirus infection, Ornithosis, Coccidiosis, worm infestation, organ form of Trichomoniasis.

Treatment:
Upon appearance of the symptoms described, treatment with chloramphenicol-N should be started immediately. In some cases it is necessary to change the treatment (e.g. to doxycyclin-t or ampicillin-t) when the results of the bacteriological examination and antibiogram become available.

Do not give pigeons any feeds containing calcium (e.g. grit) during treatment with doxycyclin-t, since calcium binds doxycycline and thus reduces its efficacy.

No free flight for affected pigeons.

Do not provide bath water.

Treat the entire flock rather than individual birds.

Cull severely affected pigeons before beginning the treatment, since it is unlikely that they can be cured.

To check the outcome of the treatment, carry out bacteriological examinations on faecal samples. These should take place at least 14 days after termination of treatment, and then repeated twice at 3-week intervals.''


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Squeaker said:


> His driveway is really long and hes the type to let out a few shots from a shotgun to warn you off his property, which scares me. So i have little choice but to wait till the office is open. But he is inside and keeping warm right now. I do care about him, *i just dont have much experience in caring for sick birds. I am new at this*


That is why you need to take our advise.
if the pigeon is warm... you can tell by feeling his feet. if they are cool or cold, the pigeon needs supplemental heat before giving with food or water. Do feed some defrosted peas. Try with 15 at first. They have protein and liquid which is very good for him. When the crop empties, feed again gradually adding more peas.
Can't you call your neighbor?

I agree that the pigeon could have salmonella as well as canker. If he were here, I would give him baytril and metronidazole.When they get sick, it's seldom just one thing bring them down.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

poison said:


> ''Salmonellosis (Paratyphus)
> 
> Salmonellosis has one of the highest mortality rates of any infectious bacterial disease of pigeons.
> 
> ...


Hmm, he only has the odd looking droppings and is skinny, and that seems more apparent in baby birds from what this article says. He has no chronic symptoms, but i will look more closely into the possibility and do some more research about it


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You are not going to figure out what he has by reading the different articles. He either needs to be seen by a vet, or started on meds. I think your neighbor would probably help you. He will probably die if you don't start medications. You are wasting time trying to diagnose it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I got a p.m. -- I can hook up and give Squeaker meds tomorrow. 

I have enough Baytril for 14 days for Freebird, as well as Metronidazole -- and also plenty of Ronidazole for flock canker treatment. (I'll send along some Medistatin and Probiotics too, as well as calcium and vitamin d. )

This doesn't sound much like salmonella to me, but I'm with Charis in thinking we may as well cast a wide net on this one and run with the Baytril -- unless someone has another meds suggestion. (I have several other meds too). I do have Sulmet -- far more than I am likely to use -- so I think I will send some of that along just in case others start going down too....or the Baytril doesn't address the problem... coccidiosis seems like a real possibility, in my mind. 

Thoughts?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Okay, Freebird and Squeaker came by, and we had a very good visit. 

Freebird definitely has canker (visibly, in the back of the throat and on the tongue) -- and some respiratory symptoms, severe emaciation, and enteritis. There's still a pronounced swelling under the wing where the hawk wound was, on the joint. The swelling wasn't warm to the touch, but was hard like a paratyphoid boil.

The droppings looked and smelled more like coccidiosis than paratyphoid, though. 

We started the bird on Baytril and Metronidazole -- and I sent along some cocci-tabs (sulfaquonoxaline) for later. Squeaker also has sulmet at home. I sent Ronidazole for flock canker treatment. 

I taught Squeaker to tube feed, which she did *very* well! I sent along a syringe, etc. and enough formula for the next few days. She was able to tube feed by herself comfortably by the time she left. We also went over the basics of hand feeding seeds. 

I feel pretty confident that Freebird will recover fully. He's a very, very sweet little bird! 

The plan is to get him stable and tube feed until he puts on some weight -- and treat with the Baytril and Metronidazole for now, if that brings sufficient improvement upfront. Once he's a little stronger we can treat for coccidiosis -- I didn't want to overload the little guy with meds. 

I did send medistatin, too, which she will give preventively with the Baytril, and some probiotics.

We'll see if this gets things moving the right direction -- she's going to keep in touch with me, and if we need to switch meds, we can.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Looking forward for the good news from Squeaker.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Minimonkey, YOURE A GEM! Im so thankful for the help with my little guy and your birds are beautiful. Freebird was a goner for sure if it werent for your help. I cant tell you how much i appreciate the info and medicines, not just for freebird but the information will help keep all my birds healthy! 

I know hes by no means out of the woods yet, but im at least more optomistic now that he has some medicine and i actually know how to feed him  oh and i got him a heating pad *and yes jay, hes indoors*


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Glad to hear that you and Freebird made it home safely, and that you were able to find a heating pad. 

You did SUCH a great job with the tube feeding ... I was really impressed! I hope he starts feeling much better very soon. He sure is a sweet little guy 

I really enjoyed meeting you (and your sweet birdie).


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Glad to hear that you and Freebird made it home safely, and that you were able to find a heating pad.
> 
> You did SUCH a great job with the tube feeding ... I was really impressed! I hope he starts feeling much better very soon. He sure is a sweet little guy
> 
> I really enjoyed meeting you (and your sweet birdie).


We enjoyed meeting you too :-}

I already have a question though, well 2 actually. Do i need to hand feed grit, and if so how much? And when i tube fed him a little more about an hour ago, a small ammount came out his mouth, but then he took it right down. Is that cause it wasnt deep enough, or maybe i fed too quickly, or that his crop was full, or could he just be being difficult lol?

Edit: oh, and hes getting some of his spunk back already, he was more opinionated about feeding and giving the other half of the baytril. He still took it, he was just more fidgety.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

If you feed him too quickly, liquid food with splash and there's possibility to go to the airways..be careful.
Why are you tube feeding Freebird? You can hand feed him; she is old enough for that.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Dima said:


> If you feed him too quickly, liquid food with splash and there's possibility to go to the airways..be careful.
> Why are you tube feeding Freebird? You can hand feed him; she is old enough for that.


Freebird is extremely thin and will not eat on his own right now. I am handfeeding too but he needs alot of tlc. Tube feeding was reccomended to me by minimonkey and i totally trust her instructions. She showed me exactly how to do it (in person) It was only my second time and he seems perfectly fine right now. Only a tiny bit came out (like 2 drops) but he took the rest like a champ. Im still learning and other than that, so far its going well.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am so glad to hear he is already improving! 

He may be regurgitating a bit because of the canker, or the metronidazole -- both of those can cause vomiting. Even the most experienced people run into this sometimes with tube feeding, and you are doing extremely well with this.

I doubt the crop was too full, because you are feeding pretty small amounts. Maybe pause just a little longer after pushing the plunger, and pull out just a bit more slowly. 

It's possible the tube wasn't in far enough this last time, or maybe you pulled it out a little too quickly ... or even filled the crop a little too quickly. You can take it a little slower this next time, and insert the tube a little deeper... but really, it may not be your technique at all, but just the fact that he is so frail. 

Before the next feeding, give a good feel to his crop, and make sure it is emptying all the way -- it may be emptying more slowly than normal, which could also be the problem.

No need to worry about grit right now ... their bodies can store it for a while, so he should be okay to digest without it (and formula is easy to digest). I suspect he'll be eating on his own again soon enough that you won't have to worry about grit. 

Keep up the great work! You may need to keep a tighter grip on his beak when feeding as he gets healthier and more fiesty!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Dima -- the tube feeding was my idea -- Freebird is dangerously thin -- and also had quite a bit of canker in his mouth/throat in addition to the intestinal inflammation. He's also dehydrated from the diarrhea. He is able to swallow but it seemed to require a bit of effort on his part, and he isn't drinking much on his own. 

I thought that the best course of action was to go for maximum nutrition with minimal digestive stress, and minimal stress all around. Squeaker did a great job with the tube feeding! I have every confidence in her to do it well. 

She's going to hand feed seeds, too, but I think a few days of formula will make a huge difference in this bird's ability to recover. 

We're doing small formula feedings ... about 15 to 20 cc at a time of the formula, supplemented with hand fed peas. As his system is able to process it, we can increase the amounts -- but my guess is that he'll be eating on his own again very soon.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I am so glad to hear he is already improving!
> 
> He may be regurgitating a bit because of the canker, or the metronidazole -- both of those can cause vomiting. Even the most experienced people run into this sometimes with tube feeding, and you are doing extremely well with this.
> 
> ...


Tighter grip, got it. Maybe im being a little too gentle cause he feels so delicate, ill keep it in mind for the next feeding. When a couple drops came out, i just took the tube out, gave him a few peas, let him (and myself) relax for a couple minutes and tried it again and there was no problems.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Minimonkey-
what is the brand name of the bird version of nystatin? Rmc pigeon supply is local(ish). The mom of the lady who owns the store lives in san jose, where my boyfriend works so she will deliver it for us


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

"Medistatin" is the name of it. The company is called MedPet. 

If they don't have it, I can tell you where to order it. Nice that you have a connection to a pigeon supply! Maybe have her get some more probiotics, so you can have enough for all your birds for a while, too. 

How's the little guy doing now?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> "Medistatin" is the name of it. The company is called MedPet.
> 
> If they don't have it, I can tell you where to order it. Nice that you have a connection to a pigeon supply! Maybe have her get some more probiotics, so you can have enough for all your birds for a while, too.
> 
> How's the little guy doing now?


Ok thanks, and good idea, ill have him pick some up (and hopefully a couple other things to build the birdy medicine cabinet if he'll go for it).

Edit:
Freebird is doing well, i put a blanket over his cage so its nice and dark since we are still up. Hes cozying up on the heating pad side of the cage, i think he likes it :-}


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Excellent about the heating pad. It really does help them a lot when they are sick, and I am glad he's cuddled up with it. 

That was the perfect response to the tube feeding experience, too -- if a little food comes up, just remove the tube, calm down, and try again. 

I do suspect he'll be getting stronger and more fidgety every day, and that is a wonderful thing  

I think once you are done with the Baytril/Metronidazole combination, it would be a good idea to give all your birds a 5 day course of the Sulmet for coccidiosis. I'm pretty sure Freebird has it, and it's likely the others might as well, just not as severely. 

Give him a little cuddle and some scritches, from me


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Excellent about the heating pad. It really does help them a lot when they are sick, and I am glad he's cuddled up with it.
> 
> That was the perfect response to the tube feeding experience, too -- if a little food comes up, just remove the tube, calm down, and try again.
> 
> ...


Ill start the sulmet tomorrow. The waterer i have is big enough to last a couple days (its a covered one with a small opening that they cant poo in), since its cold, i assume the sulmet will be okay?

Ill be sure to give him some luvins for you tomorrow, its beddy-by time hes had a stressful day im sure lol


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

It's best to give one med at a time in water, and it is also best to change the water every day when it is medicated. 

So, I suggest you you give your flock the Ronidazole powder for canker now, while Freebird is on the Baytril/Metronidazole combo, and then after that, you can treat Freebird and the others all with the Sulmet. 

I don't want to overload Freebird with too many meds at once, since he's so weak -- so let's wait and treat coccidiosis once the canker/antibiotic treatment is done. Just go ahead and start the Ronidazole powder in the water for the flock tomorrow, and hold off on the Sulmet. 

Sorry if I am confusing you with so many different meds! I know it is a lot to keep track of at one time when you are new to all this. 

Little guy held up like a total champ through all the stress today -- he deserves a good night's sleep  So do you!


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> It's best to give one med at a time in water, and it is also best to change the water every day when it is medicated.
> 
> So, I suggest you you give your flock the Ronidazole powder for canker now, while Freebird is on the Baytril/Metronidazole combo, and then after that, you can treat Freebird and the others all with the Sulmet.
> 
> ...


I think im keeping track of it 

For the flock: Canker treatment (ronidazole) first, then cocci treatment (sulmet) next

for freebird: 15-25 ml formula 2-3x a day with nystatin and probiotic mixed in and 20 (ish) peas 2-3x per day. 1 pill metronidazole 1x per day and 1/2 baytrill 2x per day. Then when hes getting better, sulmet treatment.

Please correct me if needed 

I really feel confident about the treatment, and honestly, i need a sick bird to learn from, i wish it wasnt my freebird, but hes such a trooper, id almost say he can probably handle it better than any other bird i have. Of course in a perfect world, none of my birds would ever get sick but just like kids, its going to happen weather you like it or not. A person can read all they want about how to do something but sometimes you have to have a "hands on" experience with it to really understand what youre doing


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That is absolutely right!  I may have you drop the dose of metronidazole to half a pill daily in a few days, but right now, I think it's good to dose on the higher side. He definitely has canker, and I'd rather we knock it down sooner rather than later. 

I feel the same way about learning needing to be a hands-on thing -- my second rescue was one of the toughest I have ever done (she's the one you commented that she is pretty, named Paloma). I had to jump in with both feet on that one, and I learned a great deal from doing it. 

I think there's a good chance that Freebird will be able to get flight ability back, too -- that joint is inflamed at the moment, but I think a lot of that may clear up once he's well again.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> That is absolutely right!  I may have you drop the dose of metronidazole to half a pill daily in a few days, but right now, I think it's good to dose on the higher side. He definitely has canker, and I'd rather we knock it down sooner rather than later.
> 
> I feel the same way about learning needing to be a hands-on thing -- my second rescue was one of the toughest I have ever done (she's the one you commented that she is pretty, named Paloma). I had to jump in with both feet on that one, and I learned a great deal from doing it.
> 
> I think there's a good chance that Freebird will be able to get flight ability back, too -- that joint is inflamed at the moment, but I think a lot of that may clear up once he's well again.


Is paloma the white and creme colored one? Shes so pretty and cute with her little gimpy leg and friendly nature.

I hope freebird will be able to fly one day, i dont like him being on the ground all the time where the other birds poo (which could explain how he got sick, in addition to being born in a disgusting loft). Once in a while he will get up on the lowest perch, but usually he just lays in his little plastic box with pine needle and hay bedding at night. (Pine needles reccomended to me by a pigeon guy on my street, he says it helps keep mites away)


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The white and cream, gimpy one is Psyche -- she is absolutely my baby!  She's all sweetness and cuddles, all the time.

Paloma is the one who is sitting the fake eggs with the big, grumpy, fierce male  

Pine needles are good bedding, your pigeon guy is right about that ... I use those, and tobacco stems -- both of them help keep mites away.

I do think there's a good chance Freebird will fly again, at least somewhat. I think he probably picked up an infection from the hawk attack, and that weakened his system for other infections to take hold. After he's stronger, you can start working with him to stretch and strengthen the wing. I'm hoping the inflammation in that joint will go down once the antibiotics really get working. 

Right now, he's so weak it was hard to tell how much function he has in that wing ... but I'm hopeful that he will get a lot of the functioning back. 

Heck, Winchester (the big,grumpy male on the nest) can fly some now, and he'd been shot clear through the wing joint, severing a tendon! He can't fly well enough to release, but he can certainly get up to high perches, and it continues to get better many months after the injury. And he can whack me pretty darn hard


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> The white and cream, gimpy one is Psyche -- she is absolutely my baby!  She's all sweetness and cuddles, all the time.
> 
> Paloma is the one who is sitting the fake eggs with the big, grumpy, fierce male
> 
> ...


Oh right, i remember paloma now. I think psyche is my favorite too, i just think its adoreable how she kinda scooted toward you for lovins. 

Hopefully the infection from the hawk attack hasnt been neglected too long :/ i thought it was looking great. I guess i was just looking for that big open wound, and omce it was closed i was happy. I did notice the big bump though. I just thought the attack changed the shape of his "arm pit" lol. I guess i just assumed it grew back strangely


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

feeding went well, hes getting good at it lol. thought id send a pic of us  his poo is looking.... better.... its not quite so watery. still doesnt look good, but its not a puddle of clearish green liquid.
ps- yes minimonkey, i wore the same shirt to bed hahahaha. got lazy last night :->


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Awwwww! I love that picture!  

He looks much better already --- more alert, eyes are brighter, he's holding his head up more ... and the poops look better too. It'll take a while for the poops to really start improving, and they may not get all the way better until we treat for coccidiosis -- but this is truly encouraging. 

As for the feeding -- it is *you* who are getting good at it, but we can give Freebird a bit of credit for putting up with it so easily  

My Psyche does the cutest thing when she's out for cuddles -- I will lie on the couch and put her on my belly ... she will flap and scoot up until she plants herself right at my chin, and then start preening my face and cooing up a storm. It's totally irresistable.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Awwwww! I love that picture!
> 
> He looks much better already --- more alert, eyes are brighter, he's holding his head up more ... and the poops look better too. It'll take a while for the poops to really start improving, and they may not get all the way better until we treat for coccidiosis -- but this is truly encouraging.
> 
> ...


Haha thats cute  she sounds like a wonderful little birdy.

Yeah, hes definately more alert now that hes got some food in his belly and is on the meds. He turns his head really fast when he hears a sound, before he would just ne like uuuggghhhh, i dont even care what that sound was. Hopefully his tail will perk back up soon, if i remember correctly that means he has intestinal issues?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yes, holding the tail low is often because of intestinal discomfort or abdominal pain. (It's also something that hens do when they are about to lay an egg). Sometimes it can be because they are struggling to breathe, as well -- but with Freebird, my guess is it is from the intestinal pain and swelling (enteritis). He was pretty inflamed in the abdominal area. 

It's great that he's more alert!  He was definitely pretty non-responsive yesterday, so that's a big improvement.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

just thought id post a holiday pic of my babies 

I wanted at least one "frameable" picture of him and my fur babies. when the lights are off, he seems to really enjoy the tree. i let him sit in it for about 20 minutes, he crawled inside the tree and came out the other side. i figure he could use a little walking around to get him a little stronger since his cage is a little small, and if he didnt want to move, he could just sit there, but he was curious.

please dont freak out! the tree is super dense and the lights were ONLY on for the picture, and my dogs could care less about his existance, the little white one is even afraid of our birds (she didnt know he was there, thats how i was able to get the pic lol)


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

OMG! That is so incredibly cute!  He looks so picture perfect in the tree


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Thank you. Im assuming someone will probably politely flame me for it, but i figure if hes walking around and checking it out, it cant be bothing him too bad. He gets lots of rest, so a tiny bit of activity could be good for him.

He was just in the perfect spot for a picture, so i had to take the opportunity


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> OMG! That is so incredibly cute!  He looks so picture perfect in the tree


After i took the pic, i started singing "...and a partridge in a pear tree..." lol


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, I was thinking, "and a pigeon in a pine tree..."

I think it is a good sign that he's curious and energetic enough to climb around and explore. 

Your dogs are real cuties, too. Lovely little family portrait


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, I was thinking, "and a pigeon in a pine tree..."
> 
> I think it is a good sign that he's curious and energetic enough to climb around and explore.
> 
> Your dogs are real cuties, too. Lovely little family portrait


Theyre good doggies, absolutely ZERO prey drive what so ever XD so i trust them. I always say my cat is my best bird dog haha, she took down a hawk one time! It was a fairly smallish one, but still a hawk none the less. Not sure how it happened but it was on my door step next to a sparrow type bird, as if the little bird wasnt good enough, she had to go back and top it.

We must be on the right track with his treatment and feeding. I cant believe how much more.... alive... hes acting just since last night. All he does is sit in his favorite corner in the cage on the heating pad, he goes right to it after feeding time. But while feeding hes more lively and more alert to his surroundings.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow, that's a heck of a hunting cat you've got! I hope it doesn't start bringing home buffalo and bears, and leaving those on the doorstep....! I think every cat I've ever had would run in fear from a hawk, even a small one. 

I'm so glad to hear the improvement is so fast with Freebird -- it sounds like we are definitely on the right track. They can come back surprisingly quickly with the right combination of meds and support.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Wow, that's a heck of a hunting cat you've got! I hope it doesn't start bringing home buffalo and bears, and leaving those on the doorstep....! I think every cat I've ever had would run in fear from a hawk, even a small one.
> 
> I'm so glad to hear the improvement is so fast with Freebird -- it sounds like we are definitely on the right track. They can come back surprisingly quickly with the right combination of meds and support.


Well, if she did bring home a buffalo or a bear, guess we could make some good jerkey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The poor little thing still looks very ill to me. He's docile because he feels so crumby. Are you feeding the defrosted peas?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> The poor little thing still looks very ill to me. He's docile because he feels so crumby. Are you feeding the defrosted peas?


I agree, hes absolutely still sick, no question about that. Ive only been treating him for 24 hours, id be crazy if i didnt think he was still sick. We were just commenting that he is showing some signs of improvement. Hes getting energy back and is more alert. I think some of the posts are me just reassureing myself that the treatment is working, which i do believe.

Im tube feeding him formula and the seed peas that minimonkey gave me. I suppose i could add some green peas too, but this does seem to be working for us.

He has always been one of my two most docile and friendly birds, and today i saw some little glimmers of his personality, so hes gotta be feeling at least somewhat less crummy.

Oh, and i almost forgot, he was drinking on his own a little today (when i offered him the bowl, but he did take ot none the less)


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey, that's great that he drank some on his own, when offered the bowl! 

Charis --I taught Squeaker how to tube feed when she and Freebird were here -- and she got the hang of it very quickly. I suggested small feedings of formula, with some seed peas fed by hand in addition. I've found this method pretty effective when a bird is really emaciated and weak, as Freebird is at the moment. 

I figured tube feeding was a good skill for Squeaker to learn, as well as being a good way to get some quality nutrition and hydration into Freebird relatively quickly and with minimal digestive strain. She's doing small feedings -- about 20 to 25 cc of formula, supplemented with the dried peas. He was swallowing on his own yesterday, but it seemed to be an effort for him, and I've found this combination of feeding strategies to work well. 

He's definitely in very rough shape -- but he's getting good supportive care, supplemental heat, meds, nutrition and a lot of rest. He's on Metronidazole and Baytril, with Nystatin and probioitics mixed in the formula. (Pidgey swears by using probiotics alongside treatment with antibiotics, rather than after -- and so does my human doctor.)

We're going to follow this with Sulmet, since I'm pretty sure there's coccidiosis present as well. 

He's more docile than usual because of being sick, definitely, but Squeaker says he has always been a pretty tame and affectionate bird. As sick as he was, it was clear he enjoyed being handled by her -- and he was a bit wary of me at first. 

I'm feeling good about about the developments so far.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He warmed up to you quickly though, hes an easy going kinda guy :-}

Im so appreciative for you teaching me how to tube feed, probably the most useful bit of info i learned, cause ya never know when youll need it.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

He did warm up quickly  He wasn't too sick to recognize me as a stranger at first, though, which is a good thing. 

Very glad you were able to come by, and that you are such a quick learner!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

How is our little friend doing now?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> How is our little friend doing now?


Getting better. The stinky poo is going away. Still a bit wet, but the smell is going away. He took the food good yesterday when i split it up in smaller portions. Im changing his cage every day (dog potty pads work wonderfully) he does stay on one side, so he tends to walk in and lay in his poo tho  ive been using a warm damp wash cloth to clean him up. Hes getting more energy back every day, but hes starting to be more accepting of the feeding tube and seeds. I think hes starting to understand its helping him. Either that or he was just sleepy this morning lol, but i did let him wake up for about 15 minutes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sure the feeding is why he picked up somewhat right away.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> I'm sure the feeding is why he picked up somewhat right away.


Yep, i can bet youre right. Hes by no means healthy, but he is feeling better.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well I hope he continues to feel better.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> Well I hope he continues to feel better.


thank you, me too. This is actually a great learning experience for me. I wish none of my birds would ever get sick, but i know thats not logical so the fact that hes got quite a few ailments going on is helping me to learn what different illnesses look like. Im not saying im glad hes sick, because freebird is my favorite lil guy, but him and minimonkey are teaching me alot


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey, that's great news about the droppings improving!  Also great to hear that he's doing better with the smaller feedings. 

How's his breathing? Does he still have the open beak at all, or the clicking in the lungs... or is that starting to improve as well?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> Hey, that's great news about the droppings improving!  Also great to hear that he's doing better with the smaller feedings.
> 
> How's his breathing? Does he still have the open beak at all, or the clicking in the lungs... or is that starting to improve as well?


Sometimes he has his beak open, especially at feeding time. He also breathes really fast after feeding. I havent listened to the clicking yesterday or today, but i will tonight

Edit: ive been leaving him alone except for at feeding time, but it seems like his beak is open less frequently before i open the cage. i think maybr during and after feeding its mostly that he isnt super happy at the moment lol. His breathing slows back down within a couple minutes and goes back to normal.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think he's reacting to the stress of feeding with the heavier breathing, and it is great to hear that it goes back to normal pretty quickly. I'm sure he's still congested, but it's good that the open beak is only when stressed. Keep an eye on this -- as long as it is improving, we're doing ok... 

Letting him rest is the best thing you can do, really -- that and the feeding, meds, and heat, are the best care you can give.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I think he's reacting to the stress of feeding with the heavier breathing, and it is great to hear that it goes back to normal pretty quickly. I'm sure he's still congested, but it's good that the open beak is only when stressed. Keep an eye on this -- as long as it is improving, we're doing ok...
> 
> Letting him rest is the best thing you can do, really -- that and the feeding, meds, and heat, are the best care you can give.


Ive been leaving him alone so much that im not really sure if his beak is open when hes just hangin out in the cage, but i will watch him a bit tonight. I havent noticed it before feeding though. And ill listen for the clicking too. Now im actually kinda curious as to what the status is on the open beak and the clicking. I guess im giving him a little too much alone time, i should probably be watching a little more. Not that im neglecting him or anything, just trying to let him be as calm as possible.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Freebird update: He's back at my place as of tonight. Squeaker noticed that his crop wasn't emptying properly -- and his breathing was becoming more labored, so we decided to check him in for a stay with me.

His crop is, indeed, full of seeds. Squeaker tried syringing a little apple cider vinegar in water down the crop and massaging, but it wasn't bringing much relief to him, so she brought him over.

I was able to suction out quite a bit of muck from the base of the crop with a catheter tube-- it looked like yeast (very stringy and floated, with tendrils on it) -- and the crop fluid has a strong canker smell as well. I flushed out the crop with saline a few times, and then syringed in water with a bit of apple cider vinegar and massaged the crop some more-- I gave medistatin and metronidazole, and will see if I can suction out any more of the seed matter in the morning. He's still on the Baytril too.

The canker in the mouth is much better than a few days ago, and his droppings are much improved, and he's stronger -- the swelling on the wing joint seems improved as well -- but the crop is a bit of a set back.

His breathing eased a lot after I rinsed the crop, though it is still labored-- but he seemed stable when I tucked him up on heat for the night. 

I suspect a lot of the problem is canker -- so I will keep treating for that, and he'll be on a liquid diet for a few days -- I'll give him a little applesauce in the morning too and see if I can get any more of the food to move through him.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

I swear mini, youre like the pigeon whisperer  youre so sweet to my little birdy and i couldnt tell you enough how much i really do appreciate it (hope youre mot sick of hearing that by now lol). Glad to hear some things really are improving and it wasnt just wishful thinking on my part


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Do you think the yeast build up could be cause from the baytril whipeing out the good bacteria in his system and because we ran out of the nystatin to help control it? And, should baytril always be used with nystatin and probiotics? Just curious & tryin to learn as much as i can from my little sickie.

How much better is his breathing? Beak still open? Is he still breathing with his whole body? Howd you get those seeds out? Were they squishy enough to fit through the feeding tube? My neighbor reccomended a turkey baster. The tube seems a bit large for a pigeons little mouth  hes definately an old guy whose been keeping pigeons a very long time but hes sort of a grump and not a whole lot of help. Hes more like the well youll make mistakes, birds will die, but youll learn... which isnt exactly the way id like to learn. I was hoping he would come by or let me bring freebird over but he wasnt having it. Btw, this is not dr russum that i put on my signature, hes a good guy lol... im just scared to walk onto any country mans property especially late at night amd i dont have his number so hes hard to get a hold of unless his office is open.

Ps- sorry for bombarding you with questions  thought id post it here instead of in a pm cause the info might help someone else

Edit: is his grip getting any better? It seemed to me like it was improving


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

What your neighbor was suggesting -- with the baster and the vomiting -- is sort-of an old-timers trick for washing out the crop. It's dangerous -- the bird can aspirate (drown on the fluid) and die. That's an absolute last resort thing, in my book, and even then it has to be done really carefully. 

That said, I haven't gotten the solid seeds out yet -- I am trying to get them to break down enough that I can suction them out, or that they will pass through his system.

Liquid is passing through well, which is great, but the seeds are going nowhere right now. They need to come out, but I'm hoping gentle and consistent measures will be enough to do the trick. 

He's definitely breathing better this morning -- still a little heaving, but no open beak, and he was genuinely grumpy and fussy about being handled  His grip is much stronger than it was. He's standing well. 

I syringed in water with apple cider vinegar again this morning, massaged, and then suctioned it out -- it came out much clearer today, and without the canker smell to it.

I gave a small amount of warm applesauce, and we'll see if that helps at all. 

I'm keeping up the meds -- and a lot of the swelling around the wound area is going down. 

He had a pretty deep wound into the crop, from the hawk attack, and I think that is complicating matters. He also had a very thickened crop membrane, probably from the canker as well as the scar tissue-- I suspect he's been having crop problems for a while, actually. 

The yeast could be from his immune system being lowered from a bacterial infection (from the hawk attack), and it also tends to overgrow with canker, too. If he's been having crop problems, that often breeds yeast. 

I'm keeping up with the medistatin for that -- I've got a diluted solution of it that I am syringing in -- that should really help. The crop seemed a lot less yeasty this morning. 

Antibiotics also do cause an overgrowth of yeast, so I generally give the medistatin along with Baytril just to be safe. 

That's this afternoon's update. I'll keep you posted!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I'm actually going to start a new thread and see in I get any responses that might help .


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

minimonkey said:


> I'm actually going to start a new thread and see in I get any responses that might help .


Sounds good, dont forget to link me to it


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Here's the new thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/crop-problems-with-freebird-65668.html#post711148


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