# Protected Pigeons



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

A few weeks ago I received my copy of Bird Tracks, published as our East Valley Wildlife Newsletter.

There was an artcle by Nancy Eilerstsen, a known rehabber in our area, mentioning that 5 types of pigeons were federally protected. I had never heard about pigeons being protected, so I dropped her an e-mail asking for more information.

Here is her reply:

*Hi Shi,

Sorry for the delay in answering. Between a grant proposal that's due in a few days and Baby Bird Season in full swing, I've let my e-mail pile up.

I still have to check with Paul Halesworth about the other two species, but three types of pigeons that are apart from the Rock Dove are the Band-tailed which is located along the west coast and occasionally found in the southwestern states, the Red-billed pigeon (I think it's in Texas but will have to verify), and the White-crowned pigeon found in Key West. The Red-billed and the White-crowned keep to secluded areas and are rarely seen. The Band-tail also shies away from people, sticking to mountainous/forest areas.

Glad you enjoy Bird Tracks. Marge Preece just took over as editor and we've trying to get more issues out. Since Marge isn't rehabbing, she can focus on the editorial work.

Nancy*

Does anyone have additional information? With all the negative press about pigeons, sure is nice to know there are some that are protected!!


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Red-billed pigeon*

I'll do this in separate posts. I don't know this stuff first hand. I have a handy-dandy bird book -- a petite (haha) 8-1/2 x 11" heavy tome in front of me. _Smithsonian's Birds of North America_ by Fred Alsop III.

Red-billed pigeon -- hunted in Mexico, declining in population in Texas (probably because of it being hunted in Mexico). Native to Central America but ranges into southern Texas. Red-purple neck and head feathers, violetbrown wing feathers on the upper part. Blue-gray wing coverts. Red bill, yellow tip, orange or red eye. About the same size as rock doves. Range seems to be along both gulf coasts of Mexico then up into southern-most Texas on the east. On the west, follows the Gulf of Baja (eastern side) but then goes inland toward the Arizona-New Mexico shared border. Looks like their range follows a river course or some other wetlands where food and water are found. Likes water. Eats seeds, nuts, figs, and fruit. Not found in flocks during breeding season.

You might see these in AZ but not likely. Even in Texas, they are hard to spot.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

One of the bird guides I have lists a few species of doves which would be protected (except in the hunting season for some, no doubt) but no more 'pigeons'. Will be interesting to see what further info your pal comes up with.

Here in the UK the wild Rock Dove (or Rock Pigeon), as opposed to the feral variety, is a protected species (thankfully, as there are very few of them).

John


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How can you tell the difference (between pigeons and true rock doves), John?

Pidgey


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Band-tailed pigeon*

Band-tailed pigeon. Found along the west coast of the US up into BC Canada, comes up along the western inland side of Mexico into AZ-NM, CO UT and east into west Texas along the Rio Grande. Over-all feather color reminds me of a mourning dove but with darker flights. Iridescent dark brown neck feathers, little band of white on nape of neck. Yellow bill, dark tip, yellow legs & feet. Wide dark gray band across tail feathers. 
Was nearly exterminated due to hunting but is now protected. 

Same book.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Scaly-naped and white-crowned pigeons*

I'll do these together because they are both West Indies birds that range up into the Keys in Florida.
White-crowned is very dark gray, (almost black to me) overall with a white cap on its head. Eyes are yellowish, bill is yellow with red base, feet are very dark. Iridescent feathers on back of neck. Lives in trees and bushes, rarely found on the ground. Somewhat common in Key West.
Protected in all its ranges but in the West Indies it is declining in population due to poaching and human encroachment on its range and loss of food sources. Stable in Florida.

Scaly-naped pigeon. Rare visitor to the Keys as that is a bit north of its range. Overall slate gray with dark metallic-looking maroon and chestnut neck feathers. Dark purple-red head but with a dark gray crown. Yellow bill, red nares, whitish tip. Gregarious, lives in trees, eats berries, grains, tree fruits, snails (ooh, escargot  maybe a bit French, mais oui?) and fruits from fruit plantations. West Indies native where it is losing habitat to people (again) and is often poached.

Same book (_Smithsonian Birds of North America_, etc.) . There was not a 5th pigeon listed except for the Rock Dove.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Does anyone have any pictures of these guys?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> How can you tell the difference (between pigeons and true rock doves), John?
> 
> Pidgey


Well, it's really by location. The only place I've seen Rock Doves is on the island of Islay, way off the coast of western Scotland. They mostly live in the caves on the cliff faces but occasionally use long-deserted 'crofters' cottages. 

I believe there are a few other isolated Rock Dove strongholds in the wilder parts of northern Scotland (where you wouldn't find a feral within a couple hundred miles) and there are some on (or on islands near) the north western coasts of Ireland.

These flocks all have the typical blue bar plumage, and they are situated in (usually) almost inaccessible locations in parts where human habitation is sparse or non-existent and, therefore, where there have been no feral populations.

John


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

KIPPY said:


> Does anyone have any pictures of these guys?


Your best bet is to look them up and try and find a common-use picture on the internet. I'd do it, but my messy house awaits


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

band tailed


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Red-billed pigeon


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

White-crowned pigeon


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Scaly-naped pigeon


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I wasn't even aware that any of the species that Nancy E. mentioned were found in the US with the exception of the Band Tail. We have Band Tails here in Southern California, and I have had the pleasure to having a few come through here on their way to my permitted rehabber friend. It would be great to be able to see some of those other species in person.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've been told by someone knowledgable on the topic that Bandtails are on the
comeback here in Northern California and are visible in flocks flying in the wooded 
mountainous parks, this through personal observation. In addition to the 
band at the back of the neck it also exhibits a horizontal band accross it's
tail as it's name suggests that is readily viewed when the bird is in flight.

I'm pretty sure that I bookmarked this link from someone's post here:

http://www.hbw.com/ibc/phtml/familia.phtml?idFamilia=71

This is a pretty good collection of movies and photos of different bird
species which also has a worthy list of pigeons and doves to look at.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow! Lots of great pigeon and dove images there! Thanks for posting the link, FP!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

John_D said:


> Well, it's really by location. The only place I've seen Rock Doves is on the island of Islay, way off the coast of western Scotland. They mostly live in the caves on the cliff faces but occasionally use long-deserted 'crofters' cottages.
> 
> I believe there are a few other isolated Rock Dove strongholds in the wilder parts of northern Scotland (where you wouldn't find a feral within a couple hundred miles) and there are some on (or on islands near) the north western coasts of Ireland.
> 
> ...



Hi John, Pidgey, 



I wonder if young select 'ferals' or adult mated pairs, could be allowed or urged to join erstwhile 'Rock Dove' populations to help repopulate their declineing numbers?


I would much rather be releasing my Debutants or recovered adult met-her-and-then-became-mated-pairs, to a more Natural habitat than to release them to these inner-city ones...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi John, Pidgey,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem there, Phil, would be that the Rock Dove population would then not be 'scientifically' pure Rock Dove, and as an identifiable natural species they would edge closer to extinction. 

I believe the difficulty that the various Ornithology bodies have in identifying wild populations in other parts of Europe is that - back in history - the more that humankind encroached on what was once the birds' domain, so the Rock Doves became mixed in with the pigeons which were kept in their hundreds by wealthy landowners and allowed to roam free to find their food.

I believe, though, given the chance a lot of ferals would revert back to more natural living. There's a few large flocks of 'ex-ferals', so to speak, on part of the north-east coast of England, probably because of the proximity of the town they were in to fairly isolated cliffs. Far as I know, they do very well without mans' help (or hinderance).

John


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi John, 


But could a Scientist or Ornithologist discover any difference really, between say 'my' select ferals, and those "Rock Doves" ( themselves no doubt partialy desended or recycled from old Etruskan, Carthiginian, Druid, Roman and other long ago Rock Dove and Rock Dove mixed with other Wild Pigeon and Dove kinds done long long ago, ) as ancient domesticates or escapees, displaced geographically, or not ?

Is the 'difference' ultimately not one of Habitat and customs and accomidations of Habitat?




Is there any genetic difference between many of 'my' ferals, and these 'proper' Rock Doves?

And would this trace amount of possible genetic potentiality really be any more of a variant, than the genetic variety already IN the Rock Doves as such?

These are my wonderings anyway...

Do proper Rock Doves have the color variations which ferals may be seen to have? or are they uniform? - I Guess that would be an important question!


Sorry I do not know more about them, but am enjoying the foray regardless...




Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Pidgey said:


> How can you tell the difference (between pigeons and true rock doves), John?
> 
> Pidgey


With difficulty I imagine. As John said the Rock Dove is a cliff-dwelling,cave or ledge nesting species and nest in close proximity. the Rock dove is found mainly in the cliffs of Western Ireland (from Waterford to northern Antrim) and from the Scottish Coasts (from Arran and Bute northwards) and through Orkney.
However even in these cliff colonies, a mongrol horde with larger heads and lumpier ceres, and plumage chequered with black,splashed with white,or coloured chestnut ,have moved in. Also the Rock Dove do fly inland to feed in fields and pastures, while feral pigeons also feed in similar sites and are therefore not isolated from the Rock dove.
Rock Doves also have a horizontal display flight like that of the stock Dove. Im not sure whether that is different from the feral. It is quite confusing and not really that clear cut.
Anyone else's views on pidgys question would be appreciated.


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## ken_sturrock (Aug 6, 2006)

CanaryJayne and John pretty well covered it - there are minor differences between native Rock Doves and Feral Pigeons that decended from Rock Doves and have, in many cases, evolved back towards their "wild" phenotypes after release long ago.

If you REALLY want to know, I'd suggest that you find a library with Johnston & Janiqua's The Feral Pigeon.

It is an outstanding book but is technical and expensive.

-Ken


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

ken_sturrock said:


> If you REALLY want to know, I'd suggest that you find a library with Johnston & Janiqua's The Feral Pigeon.
> 
> It is an outstanding book but is technical and expensive.
> 
> -Ken


Thanks for this info, Ken! That is indeed a pricey reference. Hopefully our members can find it at a library .. I doubt very much that there is a copy anywhere in my county, however.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for posting the pictures Kim.  

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thank you, Kim  

fp


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

ken_sturrock said:


> If you REALLY want to know, I'd suggest that you find a library with Johnston & Janiqua's The Feral Pigeon.


Ditto that ... I don't think there is any other work which covers ferals in that depth. 

Ken ... I think the reference at the end to our ferals as "SuperDoves" is very appropriate. The Rock Doves I observed may have harsh natural conditions and Peregrines to cope with, but at least they don't have to face llife in a concrete jungle with not only the odd hawk, but cats, road traffic, human persecution and left-over pizza.

John


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi Ken, Thank you for that information. Yes, I really want to know, thouigh I think the book might be a difficult find.
Could you give more details such as the name of the publisher and ISBN number. 

Thanks. Jayne


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

The picture of Ducky that I entered in week 2 of the pets photos is a band tail pigeon. She was found near Pasadena as a small chick by a woman who raised her and then could no longer keep her. She asked me to take her, which I did. I didn't know at the time that Ducky was a protected species. She lived with the other pigeons, but did not interact much with them. She went to a rehabber who felt she could be returned to the wild.

I learned later that Band tails are much more dove-like than pigeonish. The rehabber said that she always puts the Band tails that she gets with doves during the rehab process. Ducky was a beautiful gentle bird. I still miss her. She was called Ducky because her vocalization was more like a quack than a cooing sound.

Margarret


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jayne -

This is the publisher, and probably the slightly less expensive option (but not by much)

http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/?cp=25346&view=usa&ci=9780195084092

I'm sure it has increased in price over the years 

John


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

canaryjayne said:


> Hi Ken, Thank you for that information. Yes, I really want to know, thouigh I think the book might be a difficult find.
> Could you give more details such as the name of the publisher and ISBN number.
> 
> Thanks. Jayne



You could keep your eye peeled for a used copy:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss...d-keywords=Feral+Pigeons&Go.x=8&Go.y=15&Go=Go

And also a used book search on ebayUK or here:

http://www.usedbooksearch.co.uk/UK.htm

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Your welcome, Cindy and FP. 

Kim


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Thanks for the information Folks (John D & feralpigeon)

Jayne.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

My goodness, I had no idea that Nancy's comment would generate so much discussion! Many thanks, all!! AND, thanks for the pictures, Kippy!

When I took the baby Grackle to Nancy, she showed me a book by Sibley. The National Audobon Society was also printed on the cover. The book had some great pictures of these birds.

I still never cease to be amazed at the tremendous number of different types of pigeons! With some, I still find myself saying, "THAT'S a PIGEON?!"


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