# Young Pigeon vomiting + runny brown droppings



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I have a really lovely young black and white pigeon with me that I took in because she broke her leg and couldn't walk. 

The leg has started to heal nicely and she can walk now, but last night, to my horror, she started vomiting up corn pieces with some other pale green crop contents, the consistency of a thick porridge. She vomited on and off for the night, and seems to have wanted to throw up this morning, but didn't. She is looking a bit puffed up today, and today her droppings went from dark green with white urates, to a pool of clear liquid with a pool of runny dark brown fecal matter in them, like someone squirted a dollop of chocolate sauce in some clear liquid.

As far as meds go, when I took her in 2 weeks ago, she was skinny so I gave her canker meds & sulfa antibiotics for 5 days, and wormer for 2 days. She's been off them for a week now.

Today I gave her nilstat, metronidaozole, and sulfa antibiotic.

I looked for some Metoclopramide for sour crop, but is prescription only here in Australia.

I was wondering if anyone experienced with vomiting in pigeons might give me any suggestions, and also, any idea what the dark brown pool of fecal matter could mean? I'm really worried about her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, I think that a good deal of the time, 5-7 days of treatment with Metronidazole would be enough to treat for canker issues with correct dosing, but for bacterial issues, where you know a bird has an infection, IMO, you want to treat for 10 days, perhaps even a few days longer, so it may be best that you started the meds again.

Any way you can post up a photo of the droppings and if you have ACV on hand I would add 1 teaspoon to 1 liter of water to help with her crop/GI issues. See if she starts to respond to the re-initiation of the meds, if you do not see signs of improvement in her in about 48h, you may want to try a change in meds, what else do you have on hand in terms of AB? 

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

Thanks, I feel out of my depth with crop issues. She seemed to pick up nicely during the day, and you wouldn't know something was wrong other than her droppings and the vomiting from the night before. I've got her on small seeds and some electrolyte water. But her droppings are not frequent, in fact she's not passing much of anything at all as of this afternoon, other than clear liquid and some white stuff it it. 

I tried to palpitate her crop, but there's nothing in it to feel and I couldn't get a sense of whether there's food stuck in it or not. 

She vomited that porridge-looking goop again this evening, not long after her meds, then she got puffed up, and it became dark and she slept. So I am worried about tomorrow.


The meds I have on hand, that I haven't used, are Fluconazole, Cipro from Kamz and some other antibiotics, spartrix, and some wormers. Not sure where to go from here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

In the morning, check her crop again and see how it feels, what's her weight like, can you offer her supplemental heat, does what she threw up look like food content you where feeding her, or stuff from before she came to you, do you have any Amoxicillin on hand, is she drinking OK (do her droppings look like they have a fair amount of fluid in them)?

Also, while slow crop issues can most certainly be localized at the crop level, there are also times when the root of the problem lays further down in the GI causing a slow crop and a bird to regurgitate their food. Could be anything from canker, to a bacterial infection to a fungal issue, to even a foreign object stuck somewhere in the GI, so sometimes seeing a slow crop is just the tip of the iceberg.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

I just woke with a bad migraine, today is going to be hard. Thank you so much for your ideas. I realise this could be a symptom of just about anything so I'm going to have to cast a wide net, in terms of medication.

She is looking a bit puffed up & unwell this morning, but with moments of normality. She's still eating.

She did around 10 or so droppings last night with dark green fecal matter in them, with some form to the fecal matter ie. not runny. So things are still moving through her. The urate parts of her droppings are watery and tinged with yellow & white, but the Nilstat will cause the yellow colour, I realise.

She has vomited again also, more fresh corn and seed pieces, and a porridge mush that could be her pellets mixed with the liquid in her crop. So overall it looks like reasonably fresh food that she's vomiting.

Karyn, I don't have Amoxycillin. As alternative antibiotics I have on hand:

Trimsepetol
Erythomycin 
Ciprofloxacin
Doxycycline


Do you think Fluconazole would be better than Nilstat for treating for fungus?

PS. To answer your other questions, she is underweight, you can feel her keel bone easily. I can give her supplement heat....day time is very hot at the moment, over 30 degrees Celsius. I haven't felt her crop yet.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Ok, I found a jar in my fridge that had amoxcillin powder in it, and there was still a litle bit in the bottom, enough for a course of antibiotics for a pigeon. So this morning I medicated her with that, instead of the Sulfa-3. She's also still on Metronidazole and nilstat. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this goes, and alos see if she can keep it down.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Ok, I found a jar in my fridge that had amoxcillin powder in it, and there was still a litle bit in the bottom, enough for a course of antibiotics for a pigeon. So this morning I medicated her with that, instead of the Sulfa-3. She's also still on Metronidazole and nilstat. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this goes, and alos see if she can keep it down.


Bella, can you go over the dosing you are giving her and what her weight is? I think this med combo will be a good place to start and see how she responds in the next 48h to it.

Can you go over exactly what you have been feeding her, I would pull all large food items right now bigger than safflower seeds. Can you also go over her history a bit, she was doing fine while the leg was healing (how long has it been healing and she with you) and then started to become ill, correct? Was she eating, drinking and making good droppings before this new issue? Do you have any other birds she could have picked something up from being cared for right now?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Can you go over exactly what you have been feeding her, I would pull all large food items right now bigger than safflower seeds. Can you also go over her history a bit, she was doing fine while the leg was healing (how long has it been healing and she with you) and then started to become ill, correct? Was she eating, drinking and making good droppings before this new issue? Do you have any other birds she could have picked something up from being cared for right now?
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

Ok, this is a rundown :

Weight: 200 grams
Age: Several weeks out of the nest at a guess.
Condition when found: Couldn't walk at all. One leg looked broken & she couldn't put any weight on it But after a week of rest she started to use it again, so maybe it was a sprain. 

Very prominent keel bone and runny green enteritis that seemed to heal up after Sulfa-3 antibiotics/metronidazole/ moxydectin

CURRENT MEDS: Amoxicillin 30mg twice daily

Nilstat 0.5ml twice daily

Metronidazole suspension 25mg twice daily

Nilstat: I gave her 0.5ml today, but going through the old posts here, I see that 0.15ml is the correct dose?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Can you go over exactly what you have been feeding her, I would pull all large food items right now bigger than safflower seeds. Can you also go over her history a bit, she was doing fine while the leg was healing (how long has it been healing and she with you) and then started to become ill, correct? Was she eating, drinking and making good droppings before this new issue? Do you have any other birds she could have picked something up from being cared for right now?
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

Ok, this is a rundown :

Weight: 200 grams
Age: Several weeks out of the nest at a guess.
Condition when found: Couldn't walk at all. One leg looked broken & she couldn't put any weight on it But after a week of rest she started to use it again, so maybe it was a sprain/pull. 

Very prominent keel bone and runny green enteritis that seemed to heal up after Sulfa-3 antibiotics/metronidazole/ moxydectin

CURRENT MEDS: Amoxicillin 30mg twice daily

Nilstat 0.5ml twice daily

Metronidazole suspension 25mg twice daily

Nilstat: I gave her 0.5ml today, but going through the old posts here, I see that 0.15ml is the correct dose? Nilstat is Nystatin 100,000 iu/ml

Today her droppings are puddle-like with loose greenish runny brownish fecal matter in them, not as dark as the `chocolate sauce' puddles form yesterday. I'll try to get pics.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS.

Would you know if this dosage for Nystatin correct:

100,000 IU/kg orally q24 for 10 days.

And that does that mean I should be giving 0.2 ml daily?

I wonder if my overdose would have caused her additional vomiting yesterday?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella thanks for the additional information. I think as a starting dose the 30mg was OK, but for her weight I would like to see you back it off a bit to 20mg twice a day (I am using a suggested doing of 100mg/kg, BID). With the Metronidazole, I think we can back off on it as well to 10mg, twice a day (I am using 50mg/kg BID). For the Nilstat, because it is not absorbed systemically the dose you gave is not a problem, but we can also take this back a bit as well to 0.20cc, twice a day (I am using a suggested dosing of100,00IU/kg BID).

Also, in a day or so, I wouldn't mind seeing you stop the Metronidazole, and instead, give 1/2 a Spartrix pill for two days in a row, then go back to the Metronidazole, as while Metronidazole is a very good med for canker you occasionally get resistant strains to it, and when this happens it's good to treat with an additional medicine for treating canker.

The high doses of Metronidazole for her weight most definitely could have contributed to the regurgitations, let's see how she does with the adjusted dosing regimen.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear karyn,

Thanks so much for making me check those dosages. I can see my mistakes very clearly now  I've been in bed and throwing up myself today, so thank you for thinking for me, and making me double check everything. This migraine has been horrible, so painful, and the nausea makes you want to die...

So here are some pictures of her droppings today. When i was able to check on her, it seemed to me that she looked better and better today, no more vomiting after eating, she was more perky, not puffed up, no blinking eyes. Her droppings seem to deteriorate into a more familiar looking enteritis, instead of that awful `chocolate sauce in water' droppings I saw yesterday.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS.

For her last dose of antibiotics today, I tried her on tetracycline instead of amoxicillin. Tetracycline was the last med I used with my sick racing pigeon, and it totally nailed whatever he had. And those two birds have been mingling, so I am wondering if her being young, she's been nibbling at his poo & got a bit of whatever he had. It was a tetracycline sensitive bacteria, ecoli or strep.. something like that.

Her droppings did seem to improve a tad after the tetracycline, but its nighttime now so I'll tell you in the morning if she vomited, and if her droppings looked better.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> PS.
> 
> For her last dose of antibiotics today, I tried her on tetracycline instead of amoxicillin. Tetracycline was the last med I used with my sick racing pigeon, and it totally nailed whatever he had. And those two birds have been mingling, so I am wondering if her being young, she's been nibbling at his poo & got a bit of whatever he had. It was a tetracycline sensitive bacteria, ecoli or strep.. something like that.
> 
> Her droppings did seem to improve a tad after the tetracycline, but its nighttime now so I'll tell you in the morning if she vomited, and if her droppings looked better.


Droppings while not ideal, don't look horrible and that she has stopped throwing up is good as well and she looks bright enough. Yes, it's good to be careful about them picking up something from someone else. The Amoxicillin may have helped as well, go with your instinct on this, the tetracycline, but if she slips, switch back to the Amoxicillin.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Droppings while not ideal, don't look horrible and that she has stopped throwing up is good as well and she looks bright enough. Yes, it's good to be careful about them picking up something from someone else. The Amoxicillin may have helped as well, go with your instinct on this, the tetracycline, but if she slips, switch back to the Amoxicillin.
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

I think the amoxicillin is doing something too. It seemed to really help her with the vomiting, and after she had it she stopped puffing up looking like she might die.

But after that dose of tetracycline in the evening, WOW, her droppings are looking so much better, and it was a quick change. I just woke up and checked on her, and they have been getting less wet and much better formed throughout the night. And no more vomit! 

Karyn, do you have any thoughts about mixing the amoxicillin and tetracycline? I am thinking of giving her the tetracycline this morning instead of the amox, just to see if it further improves her health, but maybe give her a 0.2ml dose of amoxicillin during the day?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

This mornings droppings:


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Karyn, do you have any thoughts about mixing the amoxicillin and tetracycline?


Bella, while some drug combinations are synergistic in effect, working well together making treatment more efficacious, the combination of a penicillin (Amoxicillin) and a tetracycline are antagonistic, they do not work well together, and in fact giving them together can have a much poorer result than giving either as a stand alone. Continue with the tetracycline, and as I mentioned, if you feel she is slipping make a change to the Amoxicillin. The droppings do look improved and shows she is getting food into, and through herself OK, glad the regurgitation has stopped.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, while some drug combinations are synergistic in effect, working well together making treatment more efficacious, the combination of a penicillin (Amoxicillin) and a tetracycline are antagonistic, they do not work well together, and in fact giving them together can have a much poorer result than giving either as a stand alone. Continue with the tetracycline, and as I mentioned, if you feel she is slipping make a change to the Amoxicillin. The droppings do look improved and shows she is getting food into, and through herself OK, glad the regurgitation has stopped.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks a lot for your advice Karyn. 

Ok, I'll stick with the tetracycline for now & post an update. Its great to have your help, thank you


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its the end of the day here, and the pigeon is still looking great. He droppings are starting to show some `coil' to them now, like normal droppings. I'm so happy !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Its the end of the day here, and the pigeon is still looking great. He droppings are starting to show some `coil' to them now, like normal droppings. I'm so happy !


Bella, thanks for the positive update, good job .

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn, 

I might need your help again, if you have a moment please? 
I woke up today and her droppings had stayed pretty good, looking a bit more `coiled' and dry. She looked perky & great, definitely on the mend.

But a few hours after I gave her meds this morning, I noticed her sitting puffed up in her seed bowl. Her droppings had deteriorated and become wet again, and she had regurgitated. Her morning meds were the combination of tetracycline, metronidazole, and nilstat. (correct dosages this time) 

I switched her to Amoxicillin and she did perk up, but these are pics of her droppings this evening:




















My main issue with them is the increasing wetness, and they haven't improved since the dose of Amoxicillin 5 hrs ago. I guess that could be because of the tetracycline interfering with it, but she threw some if not all of it up. I'm not sure what to do tonight. I know I have to make up my mind though.

Actually my main question, Karyn, is I just noticed that I have some Augmentin 1 gram from Kamz, and that it is amoxicillin 875mg/clavulanate acid 125g). If I switch to Amoxicillin for the course of meds, could you please advise me whether there would be any benefit in using the Augmentin that you know of? Anyway, its good to know I have more penicillin it on hand thanks to Kamz.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't like changing meds, but I ended up going with another dose of Amoxicillin for tonight, and half a spartrix. The Amox seems to be easier on her tummy, and doing something at least. The Spartrix is worth a try too. I'll update tomorrow.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> I don't like changing meds, but I ended up going with another dose of Amoxicillin for tonight, and half a spartrix. The Amox seems to be easier on her tummy, and doing something at least. The Spartrix is worth a try too. I'll update tomorrow.


Bella, it's going to take longer than 5 hours to see if the Amoxicillin is having a positive affect. Let's see in 24-48 hours if things improve with her droppings and regurgitation.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, it's going to take longer than 5 hours to see if the Amoxicillin is having a positive affect. Let's see in 24-48 hours if things improve with her droppings and regurgitation.
> 
> Karyn


Thank you Karyn.

Her droppings weren't too bad last night. But, damn, she threw up everything again this morning, as soon as I gave her the meds. I only gave her the amox. to start with this, and she threw up immediately. She's hunched again today.
After a couple of hours she threw up again.

I think I probably need some metoclopramide , but here in Australia it comes as a product called metomax, which is a fairly annoying combination of 500mg acetaminophen (paracetomol) and 5mg 
metoclopramide.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, you can't use the Metomax you mention as it has Acetaminophen in it, which is toxic to birds in very small amounts.

It may be an idea to move her from the Amoxicillin to the potentiated Amoxicillin you have, the Augmentin. To conserver this med (pills last much longer than suspensions) I want you to cut one of the pills you have in half and we'll use just a 1/2 pill for now. The other half, once cut, you will need to wrap very tight with some foil or plastic, as the clavulanic acid in the pills tend to attract moisture and the pill will deteriorate if this happens.

Take the 1/2 pill of Augmentin and grind it up as fine as you can, add 5mL of honey to this, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 10% Augmentin suspension to dose with (100mg/mL). Dose her 0.25cc (25mg, this would be at 125mg/kg) every 12 hours, keep the Metronidazole and Nystatin the same. Let's see how she does in the next day. Keep in the refrigerator between use and stir very well at each use.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Poor girl, she's just not keeping anything down today. I have electrolytes in her water, and I'm cleaning up after every throw up so she doesn't reinfect. The last throw up (of five) had some large corn kernels in it, which must have been from 3 days ago or more. She's hunched up 

Karyn, before I read your post, I mixed her up exactly a 1/70th dose of the metomax, and then gave her the regular meds 1/2 hour later when she looked like she'd perked up. She managed to keep the meds down this time, and she's eating a little now . But its late in the day , time to roost very soon.

I really hope I didn't hurt her too much giving her the metomax.


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Hello Bella_F, I hate to sound so pessimistic and I know you need help with your bird and others are merely just trying to help, But sometimes I really don’t see how some folks asking to view or show Pic’s of Stool samples help. The only way you can try to even remotely understand stool Samples is if you send them to a lab for tests, The next thing is that you need to understand that in this case viewing the stool in many cases wont tell you anything or little info, but the Violent vomiting will, this is what needs to be lab tested if you can or treated first. I really don’t deal with sick birds to often, but with all you mentioned I would first start the bird with a small dosages of niacin and vitamin E and amoxicillin for 2-3 days and then start with vitamin C which helps fight infections by producing hydrogen peroxide in the system. Vitamin E can and will make more efficient use of any oxygen in the Vitamin C more available and produce helpful (Stimulate) natural acid bacterium which will help in re/establishing beneficial bacterial flora in the bowel and crop and help with the production of more hydrogen peroxide flow to be released in the birds system. All those compo of Meds that you are using are more then likely depleting your birds own Immune system to ward off any Infections then helping it! Also a big mistake that folks do when treating sick birds with all those Medications (Snake oil remedies) is what I like to call them, is that they need to give the birds Distilled Water when treating or giving the birds all these medications, because many meds lose or change there chemical compounds with the use of water that may have other chemicals in it like chlorine, fluoride etc. Now I do remember that a friend of mine many years ago had a problem with Paratyphod in his whole Flock of birds and I even think some may have had PMV as well, his birds where a mess, vomiting, loss of weight, puffiness not eating with young and old birds slowly dieing off, He tried everything all types of meds and they would work for a short time and again the same symptoms would pop up again, one day a neighbor of his that was some kind of Stomach or Gas Doctor told him to use Pure hydrogen peroxide. Not the stuff you get on the Store Shelf’s, it was the kind some folks drink to clean their system, But its very dangerous if not mixed or used correctly and can burn your hands. The doctor got him a small bottle of the stuff and showed him how to use it in the water. And it worked! He saved many of his birds with this hydrogen peroxide stuff! But you need to know what you are doing with this kind of stuff, you need a vet or a chemist to help you! And now my friend has adopted the method of not dealing with sick birds at all! That, which is not spoken, mentioned or allowed on this site! Because many folks though helpful & kindhearted really don’t know anything that can truly help you by looking at stool samples in a photo or by asking to view photos of your bird or what it is that the bird is doing unless its something like Pox, or canker, etc maybe! But a Internal infection? How could anybody really Know! But then start recommending meds without Lab tests. I don’t know their educational back ground in birds physiology, biology or medicine but I think a avian vet that has & knows about Pigeons will be better educated to give advice, But in my opinion or to be honest with myself I think a few of the folks on this site that have been around pigeons for decades on average knows way more about Pigeons then your average Veterinarians that’s located down the road from your house. I hope your bird gets better. Good Luck!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Tiplets,

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful reply; I appreciate your support! I see lots of good common sense in your post.

Just so you know, Dobato (Karyn) is familiar with my background and circumstances, and I'm quite sure she'd agree with you about getting proper tests and veterinary care, if that was an option for me. 
Unfortunately, because of the number of birds I take in, as well as my limited time/financial resources, its just beyond my means to spend hundreds of dollars per bird. So Dobato works with me on that, and so far we have a lot of successes under our belts this year, largely due to Karyn's detailed advice.

Its nice to have your support & ideas thrown at me though; I am prone to panic when I'm dealing with new stuff.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Today's update,

There was no more regurgitation last night or this morning after meds. 

I now have her on the Augmentin suspension/metronidazole/nitstat. She kept them down this morning so far. 

She's looking hunched up and sick.

Droppings were mostly liquid last night.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, that she got that 3 day old corn up was good, may have been part of what was bothering her, as they do know when something needs to come up, and out. That she is keeping things down is good, let's give her another day on the Augmentin and closely monitor her. Are you aware the Trimsepetol you have is Trimethoprim/Sulfa?

Karyn


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## Tiplets (Aug 24, 2011)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Tiplets,
> 
> Thanks a lot for your thoughtful reply; I appreciate your support! I see lots of good common sense in your post.
> 
> ...


Now understanding completely your circumstances, I know you are then in good hand Two Thumbs up to you and Karyn, I hope your Birds get well!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, that she got that 3 day old corn up was good, may have been part of what was bothering her, as they do know when something needs to come up, and out. That she is keeping things down is good, let's give her another day on the Augmentin and closely monitor her. Are you aware the Trimsepetol you have is Trimethoprim/Sulfa?
> 
> Karyn


Thanks Karyn,

Yes I was aware about the Trimspetol . I'm out of sulfa-3 so this will be what I use next time I need sulfa antibiotics. I have the trim/sulfa as well as Cipro/baytril, if we need to try something else. Its just so hard to know how quickly or slowly to switch things around, with time running out like this. I am aware that if her crop stops, I won't have a lot of options or experience to draw upon then.

She has had two full courses of meds without throwing up now. She's looking hunched, unwell with no appetite.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Tiplets said:


> Now understanding completely your circumstances, I know you are then in good hand Two Thumbs up to you and Karyn, I hope your Birds get well!


Thank you Tiplet,

I value your thoughts & support..it means a lot when you're stressed out like I am.


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## Oas5090pigeons (Sep 25, 2011)

hey do yu know how to breed pigeons


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, remind me, do you know how to crop/tube feed?

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, remind me, do you know how to crop/tube feed?
> 
> Karyn


Unfortunately , No


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

What about metoclopramide, can you tell me anything more about it? Could that keep her eating in spite of nausea?

I am looking at the possibility of getting a human doctor to prescribe me some today, in its pure form. Or is this going to overload her liver too much?

PS. She's passing a lot of liquid, and a little fecal matter in 3 droppings from this morning. The fecal matter is a thick and slimy, with some dark red/brown bile. There's not much of it.

PPS. I wouldn't be able to get pure Metoclopramide until tomorrow at the earliest, from my phone calls. I'm unsure about it anyway- sometimes its just best to get the bad stuff out.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, Metoclopramide is used for gastrointestinal motility disorders, to stimulate to the GI to move things along quicker, it also has some anti-nausea affects. However, while useful, you have to think as this medicine as more of a "band-aid" to help things temporarily, while the deeper issues of what is actually causing the GI disorder is trying to be addressed, the dose is 1mg/kg q12h.

Since you seem pretty committed to helping these birds have you taken in for some period of time now, I want to put on your mind that one one the strongest assets you will have in your knowledge base will be how to tube feed and medicate. I know for myself, by knowing how to do this, there are birds right now in my loft who would not have survived to go on to be perfectly healthy. While not quite there yet, this little one may soon well need the level of support taken up and this would include crop feeding, to enable us to buy time to let the meds work and while we figure out the right combination that is going to do this. Here is a link to a post I made to help another member lean to tube feed. It's seems scary at first, but once you do it a few times it's pretty easy and straight forward and as I mentioned, life saving when a bird needs some intensive support.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=549961&postcount=77

I post this as best not to leave things to the last minute and I do really think for what you are doing over there, it will be an invaluable technique for you to know.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Karyn,

Thanks, and I hear you regarding the crop feeding.

I've had some very close calls with doing it with the 4mm aquarium silicon tubing/10ml syringe, with the silicon end burned to make it smooth, like you taught me. 

But I got stuck with trying to figure out how to get the tube down without blocking the air passages...there just doesn't seem to be enough room. Also, the last bird I tried it with had a suspected advanced candida infection, and the pain was very bad for it, and I lost my nerve. I ended up syringe feeding instead.

I guess I'll get prepared for another try.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, people always talk about the tube going down the wrong hole, this is almost impossible to happen using a larger gage of tubing like the silicone you mention, or the shrink tubes Pidgey shows that he uses. Also, the tube does not completely obstruct the glottis (tracheal opening) and is down just a few seconds so this will not be an issue.

If you get the nerve up, go through all the information I posted again, then get your tube/syringe place a drop of olive oil on you index finger and roll it between you finger and thumb, then run this up and down the tube to very lightly coat it with a touch of oil to lubricate it. Then using it empty, place the tube down in the crop, count to 5 and withdraw. Try it again a little later doing the same procedure. The next time you may add 5mL of warm water to the syringe and administer this. After doing these three procedures you should be ready to start to give small meals of 7-10mL by tube, I will help you with what to feed.

With bird like this, that was showing a propensity to continue to regurgitate, I would have pulled all solid food a already and had them on a liquid diet, both to help reduce the chances of the meds being thrown back up as well as keeping them nourished/hydrated, giving the GI a small break, and to give the meds a chance to work.

Karyn


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

just a little tip that may make you more comfortable with crop feeding that helped me a bit: 

once you believe you have the tube in the crop, stop and gently pull the skin in the front of the birds throat towards you. if you are in the correct spot, the oesophagus, then the trachea (which is bendy in birds) you should feel between your fingers. It should feel a little like a rubber band. 

if you had the feeding tube in the airways, it would instead feel hard - once you have palpated it a couple of times it is easy to tell the difference. 

Hope im not telling you something you already know, this was the technique my vet showed me to reassure me that i was in the right spot. 

Best of luck, 


Susie


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Susie,

Thanks so much for the encouragement (you too Karyn), and also for the augmentin, cipro and trimeseptol. I would be struggling without them right now. I am never going to be able to thank you enough.

X Bella


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

It mid afternoon here, no more vomiting thankfully. She passed 6 droppings today with some fecal matter, and I think they have slightly improved. The rest of her droppings have been just greenish water. Her cage is very wet all over from her passing water.

She's been going downhill very fast, with her wings drooping right down now, she's hunched right up, tail down. Its looking very bad. 

I'm been racking my brain and I really feel that we have covered some major bases with the antibiotics she's been on. And the Nistat should be keeping fungus under control. She shouldn't be regressing like this, not even if its viral.

The only major ailment I have neglected to treat, that I would have normally treated aggressively, is cocci. So I went ahead and gave her a dose of amprolium. I'll see how how she's doing later.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, the time she was on the Triple-Sulfa, 1 week, should have dealt with any cocci issues, so I am not sure this is what the issue is. Bella you have to understand because she is just 200g, maybe less than that now, she does not have a lot of reserves to fall back on, which will hasten her decline. She needs some nourishment and we can do this either by tube feeding as mentioned or using hand feeding formula, or even baby cereal to make up some formula balls to "pop" for her.

Also, I would like you to switch her from plain water to hydration fluid. To make this add to 1 liter of water 2 1/4 tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) to help her with absorb the fluids she is drinking, to stay hydrated with the very wet droppings she is currently producing.

Bella, if you feel she is still in decline, then I think we should switch the antibiotic from the Augmentin to the Cipro. What strength are the pills? Also, I know you mentioned it is summer and warm there, but I think it would be good if you could offer her supplemental heat in a way she could choose whether she would like it or not, like setting up a heat pad on one side of her enclosure (set to LOW, folded towel on top) and she can decide if she wants it.

One more thing we could do is put her on an NSAID to help with any inflammation that may be occurring internally. When you get infections in the GI you can get inflammation associated with it, this inflammation can cause swelling which then in turns cause narrowings through the GI making it harder for food to pass. Can you pick her up some children's Ibuprofen (common brand Motrin). The concentration should say on the label of whatever brand you get 100mg/5mL, you will give her 1 drop (1mg) q12h.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Damn,its such a shame about our time difference. This advice may have been really helpful yesterday, especially the idea of making balls of formula to feed her. But by the time I woke up this morning her body had already shut down. I hydrated her, fed her 8 pea sized formula balls but the stress on her body killed her just after.

I really appreciate the formula-ball advice..I found it totally workable. It was just too late in this case. Thanks for all your help.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Just wanted to add that she had been receiving re-hydration water and supplement heat already, sorry I hadn't mentioned it. 

I tried to work up the courage to cut her open and have a look for blockages, worms, organ damage, but it just made me cry too much to mutilate her body. So I didn't go ahead. I rang around vets to see if anyone would be interested in doing an autopsy, at least to check for PMV, but everyone wanted $500 plus. So i guess I'll bury her now. Its just so sad.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, I am very sorry we lost this little one. There was not a lot of room for error with her and we did not manage to do what she needed to be done to help her make it back. Ones like this are especially hard when you thought they had a chance and you somehow have let them down. I truly wish we could have done better for her.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, I am very sorry we lost this little one. There was not a lot of room for error with her and we did not manage to do what she needed to be done to help her make it back. Ones like this are especially hard when you thought they had a chance and you somehow have let them down. I truly wish we could have done better for her.
> 
> Karyn


Hugs to you Karyn,

It's nice of you to say so, and I appreciate your good grace in the face of my inexperience, and what must seem to you to be rash decision making.

Wouldn't you know it, I went to bury her and found yet another dying pigeon. I almost burst into tears again with the stress of it. But I picked him up of course and took him in....sigh...


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Its dusk now here. My new rescue is well on his way out. I've been re-hydrating him hourly, which only seems to weaken him. He started out weak, now he can;t open his eyes or hold his neck up. And yet he's still going. I gave him some food balls earlier on but it looked like it was killing him. Nothings going through him & all day I've been waiting for him to die but he hasn't yet because he's so strong and well fleshed. I am really upset today watching so much death.

I really, really appreciated the formula-ball advice Karyn, with this one. His digestive system hasn't moved all day, but if it had, I would have been able to feed him. I felt empowered today in spite of this little one being well passed it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, when you find a bird like this you must not feed them at least for 8 hours while you start the re-hydration process with Pedialyte or a substitute, no sugar water, as this to will have the opposite affect (and not too much food at first when you do start). Food too soon and too much fluids too soon will actually have the opposite affect you are looking for. I am not sure if I posted this for you before, but here it is again:

http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Emaciation.html

When these guys are on the edge we have to be very careful in trying to do too much for them too quickly. The formula balls should be used in a bird where you know that the GI system is functioning to an acceptable level, if you feed the balls, even though they will break down unlike seeds, you can still just back things up with the use of them. They are not the answer for a really sick bird with moderate to severe GI stasis. A bird like this needs to be tube feed very thin formula (you don't have this control feeding balls) and if this does not work, then the bird needs to be moved to a true liquid diet like Emeraid (soy baby formula can substitute for this), as it is thin enough to make it through most obstructions and it requires little digestion.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The emaciation protocol formula on that webpage isn't easy to figure out and so it doesn't provide "workable" or "actionable" information to most folks, not by a long shot. Also, there's some tabular data that needs to be looked up in the tables provided in the manual from that rescue/rehab group. I've pulled from that book and posted here before, but that still doesn't make it easy for non-mathematicians to follow.



Pidgey said:


> The formula goes something like this:
> 
> (Taxonomic Constant) * (weight in kg)^0.75 * 1.5 * (Physiologic Factor) = Kcal/24 Hours
> 
> ...


In any case, if absolutely nothing is coming out of the back end of the bird, then you're usually stuck with needing to rehydrate and medicate either parenterally (by needle) or through the vent as I did with Lazarus. I'll go find links and edit them into this post in a sec... Okay, here's the thread about Lazarus:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/signs-of-life-27445.html

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pidgey said:


> The emaciation protocol formula on that webpage isn't easy to figure out and so it doesn't provide "workable" or "actionable" information to most folks, not by a long shot. Also, there's some tabular data that needs to be looked up in the tables provided in the manual from that rescue/rehab group. I've pulled from that book and posted here before, but that still doesn't make it easy for non-mathematicians to follow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Pidgey,

Wow, what can I say, that was spectacular work with Lazarus. I am totally impressed with what you did there. 

This little one didn't make it, he just couldn't pass anything through him. He was not emaciated, injured, or showing signs of any illness. I have no idea what was wrong. He definitely needed fluids and maybe trying to administer them the way you did could have saved him.

I live in Australia, so unfortunately when I have to make critical decisions about my rescues, you guys are all asleep. So I have to trawl through the internet instead, searching for the information I need. There's so much information & different ideas, I think end up more confused.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Bella, when you find a bird like this you must not feed them at least for 8 hours while you start the re-hydration process with Pedialyte or a substitute, no sugar water, as this to will have the opposite affect (and not too much food at first when you do start). Food too soon and too much fluids too soon will actually have the opposite affect you are looking for. I am not sure if I posted this for you before, but here it is again:
> 
> http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/Emaciation.html
> 
> ...


Thanks Karyn,

That's really good information for the future.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When a bird starts getting "clinically depressed" (which is NOT the same thing as it is with us), it usually means that the brain and organs are beginning a planned shutdown protocol. Generally, it's the same as going into a progressive coma for all intents and purposes. We don't like to see their resting (at rest; not flying or exercising) respiration rate get much either above or below 30 breaths per minute. If they're getting down below 25 and are acting sleepy, it's time to start worrying; pretty much the same above 40, although different things are happening. You might have seen something approaching encephalitis or meningitis, both very tough to stop. We can tell ourselves that they're not really suffering, but that's just not really that much comfort to a rehabber.

My condolences--too much, too fast.

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you so much , Pidgey, I know how experienced and well respected you are around here, and it means a lot to me having your input (and compassion).

Are they really not suffering in their death throws.? I went through it twice yesterday, with two different birds with problems well beyond me, and I feel so traumatised from holding them in my arms as they lost control of their little bodies. I am tearing up just thinking about it again.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I am really saddened to read what happened to both birds Bella. As is often said on this site, but is so true, at least you gave them a warm spot of comfOrt and kindness at a time when they had the hard work of passing onto wherever lofty place it Is that pigeons go after this life. And they werent alone in their time of passing. They had you. 

Sending positive thoughts your way,

Susie


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

kamz said:


> I am really saddened to read what happened to both birds Bella. As is often said on this site, but is so true, at least you gave them a warm spot of comfOrt and kindness at a time when they had the hard work of passing onto wherever lofty place it Is that pigeons go after this life. And they werent alone in their time of passing. They had you.
> 
> Sending positive thoughts your way,
> 
> Susie


Thanks Suz! Its been really hard to watch two birds dying in my hands in one day. I'm going to be someone who will always cry when they pass, no matter how many times I see it. 

Suz, I meant to ask you, because you live in Australia, do you know how prevalent things like the circo virus and adeno viruses are here?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was actually referring to the cases where they sink downward to the point where you're not even sure when they died--they just go to sleep. That's often the way it is with encephalitis, methinks, regardless of the cause. It does happen, probably more often than not, that the body will go into a convulsive fit because the oxygen levels start diving due to the lungs having just shut down. In such cases, it's more of an automatic response rather than a last conscious effort--I think they're usually not consciously aware of it.

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps for those explanations Pidgey. Its interesting but you're right- its not comforting. Encephalitis involves having a massive headache, doesn't it? 

PS. I went through the emaciation protocol info that you posted , and I wanted to thank you again for that. Having a rough idea of how many calories a dying pigeon can handle is very valuable info.

PPS. How is Lazarus going these days?


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