# Pigeon with respiratory issues



## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Hello,

4 weeks ago I got a young pigeon from the street showing respiratory issues. Since I couldn't get to a vet right away, he was first treated with a product called Fosbac, containing tylosin and phosphomicyn. He did well in the beginning, starting to eat on his own after 2 days. The treatment was recommended to last for 3-5 days, he got 5, during which his condition improved (his eyes cleared, they were stuck closed in the start) but not cleared. After those days (a weekend was in between) I managed to get him a vet appointment and he was prescribed nebulisation with 0.5 ml gentamycin+0.5 ml dexamethasone+1 ml acetilcysteinem for 30 minutes daily. He improved very slightly, but not cleared, so after 5 days of this, he got 7 days of lyncospectine. The dexa+acetylcisteine were interrupted after 5 days of lyncospectine, and gentamycin was administered for 3 more days after the lyncospectine. I'll do a breakdown of all under this:
Days 1-5 - fosbac+, prescribed dose is 1 mg/0.75l of water, since he wasn't drinking in the beginning, I chose to make it more concentrated and give the dose orally, split in 2 daily.
Days 6-9 - nebulisation with 0.5 ml gentamycin+0.5 ml dexamethasone+1 ml acetylcisteine, 30 minutes daily. 
Days 10-14 - nebulisation with 0.5 ml gentamycin+0.5 ml dexamethasone+1 ml acetylcisteine, 30 minutes daily + 0.2 ml lyncospectine/daily
Days 15-16 - nebulisation with 0.5 ml gentamyicin+0.2 ml lyncospectine
Days 16-18 - nebulisation with 0.5 ml gentamycin.

After the interruption of dexa+acetylcisteine, his breathing got gradually worse, and he kept his beak open wider. At day 18, after the nebulisation, he started gasping for air, breathing fast with beak wide open. It was sunday evening, I could contact the vet only in the morning, but he didn't answer back until I insisted in the evening, when my bird had another gasping episode. I was told to give him a nebulisation with the usual dexamethasone and acetylcisteine dose. I got a visit on tuesday, where he was taken an x-ray of the lungs. The vet's conclusion from the x-ray was that his lungs and trachea are clear, and the symptoms could either be from parasites or a particular sensitivity to something. I was told to deworm him (only had ivermectine available), and that was done.

Since then, it has been a week, and his state is ups and downs. He is somewhat better during the day, and breathes harder during the night. On thursday he got another hard breathing episode and the vet recommended some drops in the nostrils - a human product containing dexamethasone and tobramycin. He breathed a bit better after it, but today at noon he was again gasping.At the vet advise we gave another round of the drops and were told to repeat them if it happens again after a couple of hours, and if it's still bad, to give him another round of nebulisation. My pigeon went through some ups and downs in the past few hours but we held administering more dexamethasone for things getting really bad. 

On short, symptoms:

breathing with beak open. It varies from slightly open, to halfway open, sometimes breathing faster, sometimes more normal. He gets winded when flying even a little.
no discharges in eyes or nostrils. His beak and nose are clean.
he eats, preens and is generally active; he bathed this week, when I offered him a dish of warm water. He exercises his wings when he is left free in the room.
poops are sometimes watery - with solid bits in a puddle of liquid, sometimes fine. No strange colour or smell. The watery poops are newer, he had perfect poops throughout most of his treatment.
We gave him vitamins and acv in the water. He is probably around 4 months old, his eyes are just getting the adult colour. He weighs 235 grams. Eats seed, pigeon mix.
I cannot get a blood test or any other lab tests. The vet I go to is the only one in town I found that would even treat pigeons, and has some knowledge about birds, and he never did such tests. The others just decline. 

It is heartwreching to watch him struggle and not even do anything, as he's basically been without any treatment for a week. Can you please advise me what to do? I'm attaching the x-ray and a video of him yesterday, in one of the worse breathing fits: New video by Oana Rusu


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

For some reason, the x-ray didn't get attached.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

How is he doing? Dont know how to read xrays, sorry.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Somewhat against the vet advise - as he was just telling me to give him more dexamethasone and I did not see any improvement, I started him on doxycicline on sunday, and also gave him nebulisation with F10 - something that I was advised to do by an avian vet in a pigeon facebook group I am in (I also checked the product uses online, as it is basically a veterinary disinfectant, and it did have dosage for nebulisation). His symptoms drastically improved, like the first time he got under treatment, but after 4 days it feels progress stopped. He's not gasping for air and his breathing isn't fast anymore, but he still breathes with his beak slightly open, and he "snorts" and "snores", like he has a blocked nose. Also breathes hard with beak open whenever he flies a bit more or gets excited or scared. Otherwise he is active, eats like a champion, and for the past 2 days woke us up with a small honky coo. He's starting to get very antsy about being isolated, he goes eagerly outside whenever we open the door to the room we keep him in and tries to follow my pigeons around (he's been in quarantine now for a month. I don't let him alone unsupervised, but I did start to allow him short trips around the house - cleaning any poop that happens in those minutes).
I was advised on that group I mentioned to give him doxy+enrofloxacine+some antifungal, but since I never got responses about dosages, and I only found individual dosing on the net, I was afraid to give him 2 medicines (and I have no idea what antifungal we could give). I'm giving him 4 mg of doxycicline daily, this coresponds to @15 mg/kilo (he's 240 grams). The vet told me to de-worm him 3 times a week apart, and I did the first dose, but the prospect on ivermectine says to wait 12-15 days between applications, so I didn't do the 2nd a week apart as I was told (should have been yesterday).


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I hope he keeps on improving. Can you get Nystatin from a pharmacy? You can use that as an anti-fungal to prevent yeast. Does not get absorbed into the body, very safe to use. Also works best on an empty crop, so wait half an hour before letting him eat. A pigeon needs 30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight twice a day. The suspension is usually 100 000 units per ml.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Unfortunately today he was worse. It's the 6th day of doxycicline, I don't know if I should continue, or what I should do.
I don't know about Nystatin, but from what I read, it doesn't go in the blood stream, and only treats fungus in crop/stomach? His crop and stomach are fine, his lungs seem affected.








New video by Oana Rusu







photos.app.goo.gl


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is the dosage doxycycline not too low? I've read 10 to 50 mg per pigeon.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

I use Ivermectin for eradication of trachea mites. Normal dose is indeed followed up after two week. If the infestation is severe, I do as was mentioned to you 3 doses separated by 1 week.


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## John B (Sep 27, 2012)

I just looked at the video. Question: When the bird is laboring to breathe, do you notice his tail feathers rising up along with his labored breathing.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Marina, the dosage for doxycicline I got from my vet for another rescue a couple of months ago. I did find on a site the 10-50 mg/pigeon, which seemed pretty wild (which kind of pigeon? Kings are over 600 grams, the rescue I had then was a little less than 200 grams when I got her). And 10-50 is large margin. So I checked more sites and the vet confirmed that 15 mg/kilo of bird is the correct treatment dose, 25 mg/kilo being a severe treatment. I am very cautious with antibiotics, they can kill a bird as much as the disease. Still, if you have a sure source, can you share? At the moment, I have had so much conflicting info, I don't really know anymore.

John B, then I was wrong to not do as the vet prescribed, a week apart. Today it would be the 11th day. I'll give him the 2nd dose today and repeat after a week?

About the breathing, I have read about the tail bobbing. Sometimes he does it, sometimes not. It's not very pronounced in any case. He sometimes stays with his tail sort of down, but without bobbing it. In the latest video (the one posted yesterday) he wasn't doing it. He also tends to lay down to rest with his wings fairly open - is that relevant?

He had a pretty bad episode last night, around 4 am. Sounded like he was chocking, though he has no visible secretions. Exactly the sound we make when we have a heavily blocked nose. He made swallowing and coughing movements, like trying to get rid of something. I turned on the lights and he went to eat. Out of desperation , I did try to put 2 of those tobramycin+dexamethasone drops in his nose, but he was struggling like a devil, so I'm not sure how much I managed. Then I tried a pot of steaming chamomile and mint tea - have him breathe the steam that is - which he also wasn't really keen in, but I held him above it anyway, and it seemed to soothe him a little. He went back to sleep after. This morning he seems as "normal" as he gets. Woke up, made a small half choked sound and went to eat, then flew a couple of times from the floor to the top of the wardrobe.
Edit: he took a bath while I was away this morning. Should I withhold those? I only let him have one a week ago and today.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I don't have a sure source, I've never used doxycycline. Is it possible he might have canker?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Saphira, I used doxycycline to treat a few birds. My vet gave me doxycycline 20 mg for dogs and cats (tablets)
.
This is the dosage I got from him.

Adult female collared dove:

- one tablet once a day for 3 days:

- half a tablet once a day for 7 days (then he decided to extend the treatment: so I gave half a tablet once a day for 10 days).

Total days treatment: 13 days

Adult female feral pigeon (I didn't weigh her but she is a massive pigeon, she is bigger than her husband):

- a tablet once a day for 10 days.

I followed the same dosage for another adult pigeon too. 


Yes, the websites give a large margin: 10-50 mg.






The Pigeoncote Medical Formulary for Pigeons







www.pigeoncote.com







http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html



Anyway, I hope I have been a help to you.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm now worried that giving him a low dose built a resistance, anybody know about that? Your bird was ok with that dose, right? Also, how did your bird manifest, when did you see improvement? I'm worried because after a week I'm seeing no real improvement. I mean, he's not gasping and very fast breathing anymore, but he's still breathing with beak open and I'd say still faster than normal. 
This is the page I got my dosage from: http://avianmedicine.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/18.pdf
I'll try a 10 mg/day dose tomorrow and another chat with my vet on monday.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Here is a video from tonight. He was worse today than usual. New video by Oana Rusu


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes, all the birds were ok with the dosage given by my vet. 
Each bird had a different issue. The one that we released after the treatment had respiratory issues and bad canker. I gave her both spartrix and doxycycline and she recovered. Honestly I don't remember when I saw improvement. 

Of course, I know the problem of antibiotic resistance but I can't help you with your question (have you started doxycycline last Sunday?).
Here it is mentioned a research about impact of low levels of antibiotic over time but I think that the best thing is asking the question to your vet on Monday (the research mentions a prolonged exposure to low levels of antibiotic):









Antibiotic resistance can be caused by small amounts of antibiotics


Antibiotic-resistant bacteria are a global and growing problem in health care. To be able to prevent further development of resistance developing, it is important to understand where and how antibiotic resistance in bacteria arises. New research shows that low concentrations of antibiotics, too...



www.sciencedaily.com





I don't know why but I could not see the video. I will try again. 

I read that on the Facebook group they suggested an antifungal. I know that even yeasts could affect the respiratory tract. Here are two links: 









PetCoach - Ask a Vet Online 24/7


Veterinarians and other pet experts are standing by to answer all your health, nutrition and behavior questions! Chat live now about your dog, cat, or any other pet.




www.petcoach.co











Candida / Candidiasis / Thrush Infections in Pet Birds by Dr. Rob Marshall


Article by Dr. Rob Marshall




www.beautyofbirds.com





You can read there :

"in the respiratory tract, Candida may cause nasal discharge, a change in the voice, difficulty breathing, rapid breathing, and inability to exercise".

I read that your bird does not have nasal discharge. 

Also i want to ask : did the vet auscultate his lungs? Did he hear something strange?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes, I started the doxycicline last Sunday, gave 4 mg daily until yesterday, when I gave him 6. Another mistake I might have done is giving him a supplement with vitamins that also contains minerals. The vet advised me to give him vitamins during antibiotics generally, and I tried to keep him in best shape. I also mixed it with tap water, which might have calcium traces, as our water is pretty hard. Problem is I got such mixed advise about dosing, I'm really at a loss. People seem to dose anything from 25 mg/kilo to 40 mg/kilo. I'm the kind of person that prefers to pay and trust a specialist, but I find my trust on shaky ground at them moment with my vet. I just wish they would run a lab test of some kind to determine what exactly it is, rather than stabbing in the dark. It's so frustrating that in other countries this seems to be a basic thing, yet I can't get it here. I feel like I'm experimenting on the poor thing's life.

The vet did listen to the lungs, but at the time I went to the vet, he was in a rather ok state. He was breathing with beak open but not rattling like he sometimes does. The rattling seems to happen more towards late afternoon/night. I went with him at the vet first time, he got prescribed the dexa+gentamycin+acetylcisteine nebulisation. After a week, there was some improvment but not cleared, and I went again with him to the vet - he got a shot of lyncospectin and I was given 4 more doses to give orally. After those finished, situation was still same so I got 2 more doses and was told to continue with the gentamycin, but cut the rest. After 4 days, my pigeon went into a crisis after the gentamycin treatment, gasping with beak wide open. I called the vet 1st thing in the morning (the crisis had happened on sunday) but he could only see him on tuesday, when he had that xray done, with the conclusion that everything seems normal. and the only possible issue would be parasites or an intolerance to something. As the week progressed with no treatment other than the deworming, his state deteriorated, but my vet was convinced he does not have an infection. 

Here is the video uploaded on youtube: 



About the discharge, he sounds like he has a blocked nose, but nothing ever came out of his nose or beak, both look clean. His breathing is sometimes rattling like in the video, sometimes has a whistling sound, sometimes there's no sound, just the open beak. His breath rate in the video is 50 breaths/minute. The video is one of the worse episodes. Sometimes at night he sounds like he's chocking on whatever is blocking his nose. I read all I could about respiratory diseases, but most seem to come with a discharge, and my pigeon doesn't have that visible.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've just read online that pigeons can get sinus canker and this can cause respiratory problems. I've never dealt with this issue in the past. If there is no improvement with the meds you are using, consider a new approach. Put him on metronidazole (10 mg per 100 gr birdweight) once a day and amoxycillin (12 to 15 mg per 100 gr birdweight twice a day) for 10 days. I've used both meds simultaneously in the past. The amoxy will also treat a respiratory infection.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

New issue with my pigeon: one of his nostrils is a little swollen and soft to the touch. I am scared ****less. Please, anybody knows what it is?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks, I could see the video on YouTube.

Have you talked to the vet today? What did he say about the swollen nostril?
Have you asked him about antibiotic resistance?

I know the formulary from which you got your dosage, I downloaded it too years ago.
I don't have any medical knowledge but as I read that many websites mention the dosage 10-50 mg per pigeon I thought that the dosage given by vet (which was different for pigeons and doves) seemed reasonable so I followed his instructions.

Yes, from what I read it's better to avoid calcium during doxycycline treatment because it reduces its efficacy.

I understand what you said about mixed advices: when my pigeon Caterina got yeasts I brought her to both my vets, they suggested me a different dosage of nystatin. I made researches online then I decided what was the best advice.

Even my vet does not have his own lab (for example, if you need a blood test he must send the blood sample to an external lab).

I understand your frustration. Is it maybe possible to show the x-ray to another vet and get a second opinion? Just to be sure...

Have you read something about aspergillosis? I read that, for example, fungal plaques could be in the nose, etc.









Aspergillosis in Birds | VCA Animal Hospital


Aspergillosis is a fungal infection that commonly causes respiratory disease in pet birds. It can cause both upper (nose, sinuses, eye, and trachea) and lower (lungs and air sacs – a specialized part of the respiratory tract that birds have) respiratory problems or more broadly distributed...




vcahospitals.com













Aspergillosis in pigeons - Belgica de Weerd







www.belgicadeweerd.com










Treatment of Respiratory Disease in Birds - WSAVA2004 - VIN







www.vin.com





Here you can read an article about indicators of health in throat and head, it could maybe help you to understand if it's a respiratory infection.






VISIBLE INDICATORS OF HEALTH IN THE HEAD AND THE THROAT |







www.melbournebirdvet.com





Did the vet rule out the presence of an internal mass?

I heard too about sinus canker but I don't know anything about it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I got my bird yesterday to the vet, he sounded so bad, he scared the vet too. He took some samples from his throat and nose (was quite traumatizing, my poor baby was so scared) and looked at them under a microscope for a long time. He said he found a lot of "inflamed cells" and bacterial activity, but nothing specific (he said many kinds of bacteria). He also listened to lungs and poked his crop in a specific way. 

He said I was right to give him doxycicline and told me to go with it to 14 days, with the higher dose I had been using during the weekend (6 mg/day). He also decided, after a long thinking, to give him flagyl - he said it's mostly to boost the doxycicline and hopefully catch different kinds of bacteria. He also told me to start again nebulising with dexamethasone and acetylcisteine - twice a day, to give him some relief with breathing. I told the vet what I read about dexa, and he said he knows, but he does want to lower a little the immune response. I told him about the dose for pigeons, and he said to try half the former dose (so 0.25 ml) and only once a day, preferably before he gets worst (which is night time, so to do it in the evening). About acetylcisteine, I admit I only found it cause tachycardia in neonates. Still, I decided to go with minimal doses of both - 0.2 ml of dexa in the evening with 0.5 ml of acetylcisteine, and 0.5 acetylcisteine in the morning. I give the doxycicline in the morning and the flagyl in the evening. Yesterday my poor baby was so exhausted by not being able to breathe and by the whole day that I thought about starting today, and leave him alone for the night, but he started chocking again so I put him in the nebuliser. He calmed greatly and had a better night than anything in days. Today he breathed almost normally, and I did what I described above.

I'm not happy my baby is back on dexa and acetylcisteine. He was doing similar last time he was on them, but as soon as I stopped them, he got worse. Still, it's a relief to not see him gasping. He also taught me where the trachea is, and how to push the syringe back enough in the throat to not risk getting liquid in his lungs, as I was terrified I did that.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I really hope he makes a full recovery this time. The flagyl will help if there is canker involved. What dosage did the vet subscribed? Normally 10 mg per 100 gr birdweight for 10 days.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm not optimistic at all sadly. His breathing is too fast. His poops got worse last night too, they got runnier and with a dark colour. I'm assuming he's getting hammered by antibiotics and so many meds. Is there anything I can give him to help his liver coping?
Regarding the flagyl, the vet gave me some syringes with the stuff, because he said I would need to break a human pill into 16 - and since a pill is 250 mg, I gather he calculated something like 15 mg for him (he's 250-ish grams). He only gave me for 5 days, said we'll see after those. 
I did read about aspergillosis. How would that be diagnosed? From the listed symptoms, I could not tell. My bird is not inactive, and doesn't have secretions. Aside from the fact he tires easily and breathes badly, he behaves like a young pigeon should.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've also read about aspergillosis, but don't know anything about it. The more one reads about diseases, the more one gets scared and confused.

I would rather split a 250 mg metro tablet in 10 pieces, and give him 25 mg once a day. Underdosing won't help. Do you have probiotics? If so, give this to him. Also, rather handfeed him defrosted green peas. Easier to digest than seed and will also keep him well hydrated.

Put some garlic in his drinking water, it will purify the blood. Also, cinnamon and turmeric mixed with a small amount of water to form a nice firm ball and give this to him once a day. This will boost his immunity. There is a product by Medpet called Lewerstim that protects the liver. Don't know if you might be able to get this in your country.

Pigeons are tough creatures, lets be positive. Sending prayers your way. xx


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Thank you for the encouragements, and the advise. It's true that the more I read, the more I paralyzed I feel. 
I've been wondering about probiotics - but not sure what to use. I bought in the past some satchels that were to be added in the water, and my pigeons didn't want to touch the stuff. Granted, it stank. 

About handfeeding him, not sure he would appreciate it. He's a huge waster, because he only picks some seed, but he eats with such enthusiasm whenever I give him a fresh batch to pick from, that I'd feel sorry to deprive him of it. He actually didn't stand for handfeeding much - the previous rescue had to be handfed for a month (was also under treatment for respiratory issues for quite long, and I didn't want to risk him not eating enough), but this guy started picking the defrosted peas from my fingers 2 days after we brought him (made the whole thing much easier), and after another 3 days in which he was squeaking with joy at the sight of peas, he refused them completely and went for seed. For a while we did the finger feeding, but he stopped that too a couple of weeks ago. Now he will stuff his face and fling seed around like a pro. He drinks on his own too - though he never drank a lot. I'm trying to make him drink a little after each antibiotic, but he usually doesn't want to. I'm keeping him in quarantine, as I have other pigeons that are free in the house, but even I get depressed at keeping him alone for so long, especially since he longs so much to stay with the others. I'm letting him out to walk around the house under supervision - so he doesn't stick his nose in the others' food or water and to pick up any poop immediately, also to defend him if needed. He knows to fly to my head if any of my pigeons looks harder at him. He really enjoys picking random **** from the floor and sticking his nose everywhere - and I mean literally ****, today I could barely pry him from a piece of polystyrene when he was ripping bits off and swallowing. He goes to the window sill - there's always ferals hoping for some food there, and when I give them food and they come in numbers, he shakes like a leaf but doesn't leave the window looking greedily at their seed. The rest of the time, he explores the bedroom and spends a great deal of time nestled near a mirror, occasionally "kissing" himself.

I checked the syringes I got from the vet, they contain 0.25 ml of murky brown-ish stuff each. I assumed it's Flagyl, as he asked me if I gave him metronidazole and then we talked about Flagyl, but I'm not finding something on the net that looks like it. It was a dark bottle, but I didn't look at the label. I'll ask him exactly what it is.

About garlic - my pigeons don't touch garlic water or anything garlicky and I'd rather not risk him not drinking at all, he needs to drink properly with the antibiotic. A couple of years ago I bought this expensive garlic oil, and they didn't want to touch the seed that had some of it. It expired unused. I did give him one or two times a little splinter of garlic - would that be okay too? I'll try the cinnamon and turmeric, we have both in the house. His poops did get back normal today, he made a couple of splendid looking ones.

I can't find Lewerstim in Romania. Do you know if human grade silimarine is good?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I have never used Flagyl (I'm used to treat canker with spartrix) so I don't know how it looks like. I only want to say that I read that it could have side effects like diarrhea, etc. Maybe his poops got worse because of it. You can read info here:









PetCoach - Ask a Vet Online 24/7


Veterinarians and other pet experts are standing by to answer all your health, nutrition and behavior questions! Chat live now about your dog, cat, or any other pet.




www.petcoach.co






In any case, prolonged use of antibiotics/meds and stress could cause an intestinal flora disorder. In my experience this product (probiotics for drinking water, my birds drink it without problems) is very helpful in those situations: Oceproven Virbac or Vitaregul Francodex (they both have the same composition but the second one is more convenient because it is for bigger amounts of water)
It's a French product but you could try to look for something similar. it contains B-glucans and mannan oligosaccharides, it was suggested by my vet.









8.95? - Oceproven VIRBAC - Véto Products


OCEPROVEN VIRBAC is a food supplement to maintain the balance of the intestinal flora of the cage bird. Products-veto.com




www.produits-veto.com





I didn't want to scare you or to confuse you.
I asked if you read something about aspergillosis because I know that it exists a respiratory form of the disease.
I am used to read many articles online (as I said I don't have any medical knowledge but I try my best to learn as much as I can. Years ago I rescued a pigeon who had salmonella. I didn't know that swollen joint is a symptom of the disease. I brought him to an Italian vet who made a wrong diagnosis and gave a wrong treatment. When I brought him to my French vet it was too late and the poor Friz died). I also talked a lot to my vet (about fungal diseases, etc).
Btw last August I had to bring my pigeon Kilian to my vet because he had respiratory issues too. The vet ausculted to his lungs and palpated him too. According to the symptoms, to the whole situation and to the physical exam he said that probably he is allergic to chemicals cleaning products.
At that time I read an article about dyspnea in birds, it mentions the different causes of it. If you want to give a look at it here is the link:









Dyspnea in Birds - Symptoms, Causes, Diagnosis, Treatment, Recovery, Management, Cost


Dyspnea in birds is when your pet experiences difficult or troubled breathing and there are many causes for this condition. The breathing problem can be mild or severe, depending on the cause and the overall health of the bird.



wagwalking.com






I know that there are natural products which help the birds respiratory system. Just for example:



Airborne



About garlic: I only used a natural product for drinking water containing it and other plants.
In any case, I would ask to the vet if it's ok giving other products simultaneously to antibiotics and meds because even some natural products could interact with meds.

I hope he will feel better soon. He is surely in good hands, I remember the excellent job that you did with your pox pigeons 😊.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Oh, I didn't think you wanted to scare or confuse me, I'm already that after reading articles for the past couple of weeks. Right now, I guess I'll try finish the treatment he is on. He has 2 more days of doxy (till 14) and 2 more doses of whatever the vet gave to me, but I'd really like him to get some help with all these drugs he's getting. I gave him vitamins for the first 3 weeks, but since he's on doxy, I had to stop them because the vitamin pills contain minerals too, and I understood calcium blocks the doxycicline. Still the lack of any changes with doxycicline is disheartening. The only thing so far that seems to get him better is nebulisation with acetylcisteine, but that is not a treatment, just a temporary relief, and I don't know how long he can take it. I'm actually trying to see how he is without the dexamethasone - I didn't add it tonight in the nebuliser, maybe I can give it only every 2 days.

You remember Blue! Know that he is still with us, and I tell him every day how handsome and tall he is. Unfortunately, we never found him a wife, we're not very lucky with lady rescues (7 of them , and we're not sure any of them is a lady). Every rescue I bring home I secretly hope will be the one for Blue. He was so desperate to be a dad at some point, he sat alone on a fake egg, I had to drag him out to eat. Here is a picture of him from earlier this year.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I think too that the best thing is finish the treatment and see how he is going. Then I would update the vet and ask for his opinion.
After the treatment you can start probiotics and give him again vitamins. My pigeon Chris "Pikachu" had bad poops after his treatment (he had very bad canker), I gave him probiotics for 10 days and the problem was solved.

Here on PT there are old threads about natural remedies for pigeons, here is one of them:









Herbal and holistic remedies for pigeons


After a lot of thinking, digging for information on the net and books I decided to start this tread. My idea is to find, exchange and collect here as much information about herbs and other remedies for pigeons and birds in general. I noticed that in most cases of emergencies, people do not have...




www.pigeons.biz





They explain there 5 ways to give garlic.
In any case, I would ask an opinion to the vet before starting a natural treatment (to avoid any risk of interaction).

Of course, I remember your pox pigeon 😊! Lol I didn't remember his name but I remember his story. I was very impressed by it because he had a very bad pox and you did a lot for him. Thanks for the pic, you are right, he is very handsome. I hope you will find him soon a wife! Sometimes it's not easy to find the right partner for a single pigeon. I know that it sounds strange but some of my pigeons marriage didn't work out.. Some of my birds "divorced" and found a new partner.. Anyway, I really hope that Blue will find his soul mate soon!


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I called my vet this morning for an update and to tell him I tried to skip a dexamethasone dose, and he was about to suggest same. We established to only give him nebulisations only if he looks like he needs soothing. His state today looked mixed towards rather bad, but towards the evening I decided to give him a longer "tour" in the house and I opened the balcony windows (was a bit chilly, but thought he might like some fresh air). I don't know what exactly, the excitement of eating polystyrene and pick random seed from the floor or generally the change of scenery, but it calmed him down greatly, to breathing with beak only a little open. He ate some when he got back and went to his newest sleeping spot, on top of the wardrobe. I thought then his breathing got worse again, and I timed it several times, but it wasn't that bad - 34-38 breaths/minute. I let him sleep for now, though I'll have to wake him later to give him the metronidazole. I'm going to see also if he looks like needing that nebulisation. Tomorrow would be his 14th dose of doxycicline and metronidazole (the brown syrup is that, I asked), then the vet said we'll take a break from antibiotics, see what happens. Ill use that time to maybe give him some of those natural remedies. I looked at the 5 uses of garlic, but all of them are supposed to be in their water or feed - and my own pigeons didn't touch the stuff.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can wet a small piece of bread, put the piece of garlic inside and make a small ball and then feed this to him.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

In the old thread they mention even garlic caps (solid pills or gel capsules). They are not for drinking water or feed, you should hand feed them. I have never seen them.

I'm glad to hear that he enjoyed the tour of the home and that it calmed him down greatly. Good idea.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, I just feed directly the garlic piece, but as in I stuff it in his mouth and he has no choice but swallowing. I only use a little piece like 3 mm.
After at noon he was breathing so bad I was counting the hours until evening to nebulise him, he is now sleeping fairly peacefully without nebulisation. I can still hear him breathing, it's like a soft whistle, but doesn't sound too bad. I'm crossing my fingers he stays like this and I can skip 2nd nebulisation today altogether.
Edit: no luck..he sounded better than he looked. When I turned on the light to give him the medicine, he was breathing opening and closing his beak pretty widely. This is desheartening...


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Forgot to mention: I asked my vet if Aspergillosis is out of the question, he said secretions in Aspergillosis are opaque and his are clear.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm very sorry to hear that the breathing got worse again...I was keeping my fingers crossed... 

Thanks for the update about aspergillosis. At least you can rule out it and we have learned something new. I know, it's not very consoling...


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I've been doing some reading regarding vitamins. One of the symptoms of a pigeon with a severe vit A deficiency, is respiratory issues. I guess it won't hurt to start giving her some vit A.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Today I tried to let him as much as possible without nebulisation. I also didn't see any particular improvement after the dexamethasone last night, he was just as bad as yesterday when he didn't get any. I think I'll really cut it off, every study on the stuff I read says it's not recommended unless really needed. I asked my vet if there isn't another anti-inflammatory we could replace dexa with (suggested metacam) and he said none gets to the lungs. His breathing was bad on and off today, so I eventually stuck him in the nebuliser around 3 pm. He did calm decently and ate, so I gave him the last metronidazole and a vitamin and let him sleep. Today was also his 14th day of doxycicline, for all the good it did. He's gotten so scared of me, I'm actually relieved I can take a break from stuffing things down his throat, though still not having a working treatment is disheartening. His poops are fine, his behaviour is fine. The breathing is sometimes wet, like he's got his nose blocked, but sometimes he's just opening and closing his beak soundlessly and making moves likes he's trying to throw something out. His beak, nose and eyes are clean.

This are the vitamins I use for all my pigeons: RO 200 Tabs – Röhnfried I don't know which ones there are specifically, but I will look for some vitamin A. Is there anything special about it for birds, or I could get human one? I've only ever seen vitamins in sets usually, not a specific one.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I've been reading about vitamin A, good God, could that be it? He did feel worse this week, after I stopped giving him vitamins because of the damn doxycicline. It's why this is so frustrating, because he had a reasonably good evolution in the start, when he got one of those pills every 3 days.

So, how do I go about giving him vitamin A specifically?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm reading about it too.

I found these two websites, give them a look, they could help you to understand if vit A deficiency could be the problem. 





__





Dealing With Vitamin A Deficiency in Birds


A bird with vitamin A deficiency may show any of the following symptoms: sneezing, wheezing, nasal discharge, crusted or plugged nostrils, unthriftiness lethargy, depression, diarrhea, tail-bobbing, thinness, poor feather color, swollen eyes, ocular discharge, lack of appetite, gagging...



www.multiscope.com





I'm going to copy a passage from it:

"The respiratory system is the most often affected. Since the mouth and sinus are also lined by the cells that are compromised, you need only look inside the bird's mouth to see the early signs of this deficiency. Initially, you see small white plaques on the roof of the mouth and/or at the base of the tongue. The plaques ultimately become infected, forming large, obvious abscesses. The abscesses can distort the glottis (opening of the windpipe), causing labored breathing and eventually mechanical suffocation. The abscesses can even grow so large that they block the choana (the slit in the roof of the mouth). When this happens, the bird will exhibit profuse nasal discharge and obvious swelling around the eyes. The pain from these pockets of infection will eventually cause the bird to starve. The microorganisms can also spread throughout the bird's body with disastrous consequences.

A bird with vitamin A deficiency may show any of the following symptoms: sneezing, wheezing, nasal discharge, crusted or plugged nostrils, unthriftiness lethargy, depression, diarrhea, tail-bobbing, thinness, poor feather color, swollen eyes, ocular discharge, lack of appetite, gagging, foul-smelling breath and "slimy mouth"."





__





Vitamin A Deficiency in Birds | PetMD


Instead, you need supplement the bird’s feed with fruits and vegetables, which are rich in different vitamins, proteins and minerals. However, be aware Lorikeets and lories require...



www.petmd.com





Have you checked the package of your vitamin supplement? It should mention what vitamins, amino acids, etc are contained.
It's better using a supplement specific for birds because it contains vitamins in the correct proportion.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

The supplement I'm using is specifically for pigeons but the package text is in german, which I don't speak. It also sounds weird - it says it contains 45000 UI vitamin A, but not sure per what, as the writing is weird and I can't find details anywhere on the net.
I don't think my bird has abscesses, the vet would have seen those, he checked the inside of the mouth. What he does exhibit from the symptoms is wheezing, sneezing, plugged nostrils, tail bobbing, gagging. I haven't weighted him to see if he gained any, but he doesn't feel like plumping up as the others have had. I read on another site dyspnea being a symptom, which is the most prominent one.

I know it's a long shot, but I'm out of ideas and from what I see, respiratory infections are tied to vitamin A. I reckon it won't harm him. I have a bottle of vitamin A oil that I bought for a wound for another bird, but it says on it to use externally so I'll pass on it. Instead, I'll try feeding him some carrot bits and maybe try a red chilly pepper bit until I find a more specialized supplement.

I have been thinking - the previous rescue I had only 3 months ago had very similar symptoms but a much different evolution of the illness. She also did not seem to respond to doxycicline, instead responded very fast to the nebulisation used for this one too. One difference between them is that she didn't eat on her own, and since she was under treatment, I didn't risk her not eating enough - so we hand fed her for a month - and her food was half pellets. I finished the pellets with her and didnt get to buy others, and this one started eating seed on his own so fast, I didn't bother. What's worse, he only eats the seed he likes. With the other one, I was weighing what she should eat and making sure she has all kinds.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I checked my vitamin supplement (Omni-vit Oropharma), it contains: vitamin A 3025000 IU.



https://www.versele-laga.com/en/fr/oropharma/products/oropharma-omnivit




Ask to your vet an opinion about vit A deficiency and the name of a specific supplement for birds containing the right amount of vit A (I was talking about that when I said that it's better to use supplements specific for birds).
I read that "The main danger is to give too much vitamins A and D individually in over large quantities. For those vitamins it is important to stick to the prescribed doses and not to carry on with treatments any longer than is strictly recommended. We should never give vitamins K separately unless advise by a vet".
A vet suggestion would be good in this case. 

Surely a varied and balanced diet is very important for healthy pigeons. What seeds does he eat? Does he eat dried legumes? 

I really hope that you finally found what is wrong with him. I'm keeping my fingers crossed 🤞.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you can get human soft gel Vit A capsules, a drop every morning will be fine. Otherwise, feed him cooked carrots. Unfortunately, I just couldn't find the answer to how long it takes to see an improvement.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

In all honesty, I don't know which seeds he eats from the mix. I separate the peas, corn and sunflower - as I noticed he skips on peas and corn (like all my pigeons do) and sunflower looks too large. I have a mix from Versele Laga - the one for youngsters I think it is at the moment, looks more or less like:







He eats the small and medium sized ones, seems to like brown seed. He wastes a lot, but I'm spoiling him with fresh seed 3-4 times a day. He does not eat vegetables, none of my pigeons look at those. I did give him some grated carrot at the start (vet had suggested it, but he didn't explain why, and didn't insist on it, and my bird didn't care for the carrot, so I didn't insist either).
I gave him a few pieces of carrot tonight, chopped in like grain size, also 2 small pieces of red chilli pepper (like 2-3 mm wide, and the pepper was somewhat dehydrated so it was thin). None of it was cooked. I will look for some proper supplements. The Omni-vit was actually one of the first vitamins I tried to give my pigeons some years ago, but they didn't want to touch the water with it. I think the colour and smell was wrong for them. It's why I went for pills, I only have 6 birds, so I can just hand give a pill to each periodically and I know they got it. I'm pretty sure I can find OmniVit in my town, the store I buy feed from keeps plenty of Versele Laga stuff. Now the issue is having him drink it.

You have no idea how I am crossing my fingers.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

When I was treating my pigeon Chris "Pikachu" he didn't want to drink the Omni-vit vitamin because he didn't like the yellow color too (I was using a small transparent glass bowl because I kept him in a small box)....Have you tried to put the water in a dark bowl (like a blue one) or in any other colored bowl which can mask/cover the yellow color? Now Pikachu drinks them without problems because he does not see the color 😉. Btw he is the only one who did not want to touch the water with it. About the strong smell... I don't have any suggestions...

Even my birds don't eat fruits or vegetables. Years ago my vet suggested me to try to give them apple, zucchini/courgette, etc (eating fruits and vegetables is a natural way to get vitamins, etc) but they ignored them and I have to throw them away... Once, while I was cooking my dinner, Aurora was looking at me (she is really curious!). I gave her a leaf of spinach: she looked at it with disgust 🙄...
I know it's not like eating real fruits or vegetables but I am used to give to my birds a mixture for canary containing dehydrated fruits: they all love it.

I am used to buy pigeon/dove mixtures of different brands (btw I have too a Versele Laga mixture, it is called Doves prestige) and mix them each other. I add to them dried legumes (the ones for humans that you can find at supermarket) like small lentils, mung beans, etc. and the mixture for canary. Have you ever tried to give them dried legumes? 

How is he doing today?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did not try dried legumes, and I could actually make them myself, and be sure they don't have additives, as I own a dehydrator. I was thinking about trying the dove mix, since my pigeons mostly eat the small seed. They are god's gift to the ferals that get the leftovers - plenty of them. I also found recently on the net some interesting mixes for pigeons - some with only small seed and some with minerals and pellets. I'll see maybe I can order the vitamins from them too.

We weren't lucky last night, around midnight he had an episode of choking and we had to put him in the nebuliser. He calmed, but had another fit around 4 am, which he passed on his own. In the morning, he was starting to wheeze again, but I decided to try putting a couple of saline solution drops in his nostrils. It seemed to work, he got over the wheezing. Today he was out of his room and with the others for most of the time. I had cleaning planned so I figured I'll disinfect everything anyway, and I don't let him eat from the others' bowls. The whole activity seemed to make him happy enough and his breathing was almost normal all day. He's very different when he's free - sometimes he's not even keeping his beak open at all. He wanted to sleep with the others, looked morose when I took him to his spot. In the evening he was starting to wheeze a little again and we repeated the couple of saline solution drops. He is sleeping now, we'll see if he needs nebulisation tonight later. These episodes - he looks like he is choking, he opens his beak wide and shakes his head, as if trying to get something out. There is nothing coming out but you can hear a bit of a gurgle.

I went shopping for vitamins, unfortunately they didn't have the Omnivit. I bought a generic vitamin mix that contains 10k UI/ml and a Vitamin A+D3 bottle that contains 50k UI/ml. Both are generic veterinary use, but with dosage for birds too. I'll look online for Omnivit, but until it arrives, I figured those would be better than nothing. I gave him from the A+D3 bottle today, and he actually drank twice in front of me so he got something. 

I wonder if reducing the nebulisation with acetylcisteine would have a negative effect, as in creating some kind of buildup that would otherwise be removed? I'm honestly just trying to make as little use of these drugs as possible, but I don't want to make things worse for him.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I still think canker is a huge possibility. I know you've checked inside the beak, but have you ever taken a flashlight to check deep inside the throat? Sometimes it helps to stretch the neck a bit upwards, then it's easier to check.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm really not that good with opening the beak, but the vet did check the throat, and he also gave me metronidazole - but said it was mainly to boost the doxycicline. I gave him 5 days of it. I will still double check with him on monday. Would it not have shown on those samples he got taken and put under the microscope? The vet stuck a tube down the throat for a sample (the other was from the roof of the mouth). He then did some things with the samples on glass pieces that turned them in all kinds of colours - blue and purple mostly. His poops are good - surprising good considering how many antibiotics he's been on. They are sometimes on the watery side, but most of the times they are nicely round and solid.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If he tested for canker and the test was negative, well then it can't be that. You can always ask him to double check, just for in case.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't think he tested specifically for canker. He just took samples from throat and beak, had 3 of those glass sheets. I will of course double check.
He's had an episode last night around 2 AM, but he was just given some drops of saline solution (the kind used for injectables, I have it in house for the nebulisation) and he calmed down. In the morning he was starting to wheeze and we did same, and he was ok after that. His breathing today seems relatively ok. His poops last night were a bit on the messy side - kinda dark in colour, but today they seem back to their normal greenish-brownish colour and consistency. He's free around the house, as he was getting morose locked. The only thing giving me hope in this whole situation was that he's lively, active and eating. How high would you say the danger is for my other pigeons - as in is his condition due to some really nasty pathogen, or is it more something related to him specifically? He's been almost 7 weeks in quarantine.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm starting to think about canker too. We opened his beak and there is a little yellow line on the side of his beak. He had started going into a chocking fit. But how could the vet have missed it?
I was away from home for a couple of hours and I left him in the quarantine bedroom, came back and found him breathing heavily under the bed, tail bent down at a sharp angle. He cheered up when he saw the door open and buggered off, ate from one of the others bowls' like he'd not seen food in 3 days (although he had eaten from his too), but then got chased and went into the chocking fit. After he calmed down, he jumped into the drinking bowl and took a bath (I had left him a dish of water in his room but he ignored it).

How exactly do you test for canker?
Edit: apparently it's tested by throat swab, which my vet did. 
I'm very discouraged. He looks worse. Took him in the bedroom to dry and he just sits facing a wall.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Be very careful, don't let them share the same food and waterdish. If he has canker, your other birds will also get infected. Amazing that he is still eating so well.

Can you get metronidazole from a pharmacy? Do you have Nystatin? If you want to treat, give 10 mg metro for every 100 gr that he weighs. Once a day for 10 days. Nystatin about 0,5 ml twice a day on an empty crop.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I threw away the rest of the seed in that bowl and disinfected it after he ate. Same with the water bowl he took a bath in. I usually don't allow him to eat from the others' bowls, but he was so enthusiastic, I felt bad to take it away from him. 

I can get metronidazole, I can get ronidazole too. Never heard of Nystatin. It seems to be in human pharmacy in the shape of pills. Might be complicated getting the liquid form, but I'll ask. Is it a good idea to give him those even if he's not been actually diagnosed with canker though?

I'm at the point where I'd try anything. His breathing tonight is shallow and ragged. He did come down to eat and drink after he got dry but then immediately went back and fluffed there. I had added some ACV in his water. I went to check him closer and when he tried to bite me, I thought I could see a little yellow liquid in his mouth, but it wasn't enough to be sure it was there. He had just drank water too. I wonder if the yellow bit I saw could have been some residual doxycicline dust. I'm pretty sure one day I slipped some the wrong way...

This guy is such a fighter, I just feel I'm letting him down. This video was taken this morning, I wanted to get a better one, but didn't get around: New video by Oana Rusu


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Have you heard of a product called Fosbac Plus? It's what I gave him in the start - he had great progress over the 5 days of it, but not cleared the breathing, which is why I went to the vet and after that followed what he prescribed. I still have it, was pretty expensive, but had been told it's really good. The prospect says it contains fosfomycin, which is supposed to be very gently, efficient and not develop resistance. Also contains tylosin.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You will need to check inside the beak again. I know it's difficult when they struggle so much. Cover his body with a lightweight cloth and only let the beak stick out. Then gently open and check to see what is going on.

He doesn't look too bad in the video. I guess the breathing gets worse when he is under stress, for ex when you approach him. Was just wondering if he might have aspirated some meds when you started treating him.

I've not heard about the fosbac plus and has never used it. Did some reading, seems as if this product can treat a lot of infections.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I'll try look in his mouth better tomorrow. We just had to bother him to put some saline solution drops in his nose, as he was starting to wheeze.
He's like in the video when he is out and about. When I lock him back in quarantine bedroom, he just wilts. He wasn't so bad before, it's a whole room after all, but lately he just seems to sulk whenever stuck in it. The only pigeon I've had so long in quarantine was Blue, with the pox, and he was really sick for most of the time and spent his time in a box. This guy hopped out of his box on day 2 and never even looked back. He's quite the explorer, and changed his sleeping place 5 times so far.a
Yes, I think he aspirated doxycicline once, on tuesday. He's started hating me with the vet visits, and the treatments didn't improve things. At start he was picking food from my fingers, now he runs from them . He flies to my head when he wants to escape the others, but the hands seem to terrify him.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

How is he doing today?

I have never heard of Fosbac Plus.

When will you see your vet again? I would not give him metrodinazole without a new vet test or without seeing canker in his beak. The throat swab didn't show canker. Stress (caused by antibiotics and by the whole situation) could increase the risk of multiplication of the canker organism but we don't know if that happened (it happened to my pigeon Londo when I was treating her for her cloacal prolapse). He is getting many medications (he also got metrodinazole/Flagyl for 5 days), giving metro without a real reason would be more harmful than useful. That's my own opinion, of course.
Have you tried to check again his mouth/throat with a flashlight (the flashlight of a smartphone works well)? If someone could help you it will be easier to check it (the first person keeps the pigeon with one hand against his body and keeps the flashlight with the other hand; the second person opens the beak and check inside it).

When you need to give a liquid medicine you could use a "tool" like the one in the pic, I find it more practical and more safer than a normal syringe. Because of its shape it is easier to avoid the risk of aspiration. Have you told to your vet that maybe he aspirated a bit of doxycycline (I have doxycycline in tablet form).

We can't say how high is the danger for your other pigeons because we don't know what is wrong. In any case, be very careful.

Yes, it would be a good idea making dried legumes with your dehydrator: mung beans, small lentils (my birds don't like dark green and orange lentils), etc.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Pretty ugly day today. He seemed a bit too quiet this morning, and I decided to try see the people at the university (veterinary) for another opinion and maybe different ideas. I got there, checked in "infectious diseases" compartment, told the doctor there the whole story, she barely took a look at him for 10 seconds, then her phone rang and she went to talk, and he got so agitated I had to put him back in the box. She didn't request to see him again, told me to come back with him on wednesday for her to run some tests, said it's too early today after his antibiotics. When I was leaving, I asked her if she could check for canker, and she said I need to go to Parazitology compartment for that. Went there, eventually found a doctor, I told him the story, told him about the canker posibility. He tried opening his beak but his hands were shaking so badly, he could barely crack it a little, and I think I had a better look than he did when I did it at home. He said he's afraid to do this with such delicate things. He "thought" he saw some yellow dots, but asked me to try check at home to be sure... I asked if they could do a fecal, unfortunatelly I had left 2 fresh poops made in the box at the Infectious diseases place, and my bird had only produced one more poop while I was looking for the Parazitology. They took that, said they will call me if anything comes up, but said the sample is too small for something conclusive. So I left the place after 2 hours knowing nothing extra, and being rather unconvinced about the canker part. I decided to give my vet another call ( at least he knows how to open a beak), and more or less forced him to see me today. The time was so that I could get home, wait 15 minutes and leave back, but I figured I might as well have him eat, which he did when we got home. At the vet, I was told he sounds worse than last week. The vet checked for canker, said there isn't, and in any case he had metronidazole last week. He showed me the inside of the beak too, and I saw some yellow stuff, which the vet could not identify, but said it's not canker (said maybe something he ate, though nothing could look yellow, except maybe some doxycicline from last week? ). Then he listened to his lungs and tracheea and I think everywhere that could be listened, and my baby got so horrified, I thought he will faint or die when he was put back in the box. Vet took a long time thinking. Told me the lungs sound relatively ok, but the trachea isn't. He first said "let's try with something naturist" and suggested tea tree oil in a diffuser. He though some more and asked me when did he feel best - and honestly, I think he was best before all the antibiotics, right in the start, after the first few days with the fosbac stuff. He asked me if I had any symptoms of flu this time, I said no - he thought maybe chlamidiosys. He asked if my other pigeons developped any similar symptoms - my latest rescue has developed a little wheezing, but she's not breathing with beak open, and she had respiratory issues herself. In the end, he decided to try an antifungal treatment. It feels like another stab in the dark, but I think I'm running out of options and time fast. He prescribed me a treatment I had last year for another pigeon - nebulising with clortrimazole (it worked for that pigeon). I asked if it's better to wait for those tests on wednesday, he said they would be useful, but I can move on with the anti-fungal treatment, and just tell them to do a microbiologic test, not mycotic.

I got home, my poor bird ate something and went on top of the wardrobe where he preened for a while and then went to sleep (it had gotten dark meanwhile). I put on a little tea tre oil in a aromatherapy lamp. He did come down a little while ago when he saw a bit of light in the hallway, so I turned on his light and he went to drink, then back up to his spot. He seems to be sleeping standing on one leg.

Thing is, I just researched tea tree oil and it is apparently toxic to birds?! I turned off the aromatherapy lamp, I had just lit it back on, I didn't leave it long earlier.
I asked the vet about using nystatin and he said he would prefer something that can be nebulised, as antifungal medicine is heavy on the liver and he would rather not have it go through his system and get it targeted at the needed area. I bought the clortrimazole, but I don't know if I should stress my bird further tonight with a nebulisation, or if to risk waiting until wednesday for those tests.

Edit: Oh, they called me back with the fecal results. Said the sample was too small to be conclusive, but nothing serious seemed to be there. I have a plastic recipient to gather more poop for next time.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Sounds as if it was all a waste of time. Your vet is wrong about Nystatin, it does not get absorbed into the body. If you type Nystatin into the search section, you can read all about it. The yellow in the beak sounds suspicious.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I am desperate. It feels I can find nobody I can trust to see him. I am actually afraid to take him for those tests, given how one of those doctors couldn't even open his beak. He had samples taken from his throat before, and it was traumatic enough with a person that at least seemed to know how to do it. the way he looks, I don't know if he will make it by tomorrow, and yesterday was so horrible on stress for him, doing it tomorrow again seems traumatic. I'd do it, but I'm not even sure they will manage to be of any use.

I left him alone last night, he had an episode during the night and one when waking up he didn't manage to pass. He's breathing fast with his beak open. I've put him in the nebuliser with clortrimazole, in lack of a better option, would you advise nystatin too? Or just nystatin? You mentioned a solution but I can only find pills here.

I've read a couple of topics on nystatin, but I can't find anything related to respiratory issues. If it doesn't get into his system, how will it get to his trachea or lungs? 
He's barely picked at his food today and is just sitting under the bed. I tried luring him with some defrosted peas, but that baby that was eagerly picking them from my fingers a month ago is now shrinking away from me in fear. This is heartbreaking.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I think it's most important now to check what is going on inside his beak. If he has yeast or canker inside the mouth, this can intevere with his breathing, especially if it starts covering his breathing hole. Surely you must be able to get liquid Nystatin, it's a thick yellow liquid. Ask the pharmacist for an anti-fungal liquid, I think the name differs in other countries. Also get metronidazole and clavet 50 (amoxycillin). You might not use them all now, but at least have them ready in case of an emergency.

But please, pull your courage together and check inside the beak. Don't take him for tests if you feel uncomfortable about it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I did look in his beak yesterday, the vet arranged him towards me and had me look with him. The yellow thing I saw didn't look like canker, more like secretion with a little bit drying at an end. I've seen canker before. I tried looking for yellow secretions in the beak, google mentioned circo-virus? I got instantly scared of that, thinking of my pigeons, and didn't allow him the walks in the house anymore (though might be too late for that). 
He was more mellow today, looking more tired. I took him to the balcony quarantine, as he didn't seem to want to move much anyway. He spent the day looking out, eating, preening and...breathing heavily. Looked so bad, I just decided to give him a round of nebulisation with acetylcisteine, hoping I'll at least ease his breathing. As soon as I take him out, I'll go see about Nystatin, I have 4 pharmacies in range. If I find the liquid thing, what do I do with it? 
He was scheduled for those tests tomorrow, but I don't know if he would survive them, and I don't want him to go that way. Id' give it a try but those people didn't inspire even a shred of confidence. I know my vet hasn't been of much help, but he at least tried.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Went to 3 pharmacies - the 4th had a long line and decided to try later. None of the pharmacists heard of nystatin liquid. They have it as caps, powder or some mix with glycerine and borax. The only liquid anti-fungal they have is clortrimazole. I also went by the nature shop and got some garlic caps - but they contain garlic powder, not oil. 
His breathing calmed a little after the nebulisation, but he looks weak and fluffed, like he is cold.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you can get the powdered nystatin and mix that with water and put that down for him to drink. For pigeons there is also a product called Medistatin. It's the same as Nystatin, but also in powdered form that gets mixed with water. Works best on an empty crop, so let him drink and wait half an hour before letting him eat. Do the same in the afternoon.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can you take an earbud and try and see if you can remove the yellow secretion? Is it covering the breathing hole? Don't force it. I'm surprised the vet didn't try and remove it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

It wasn't covering the breathing hole. It was a very thin line on the side of the beak, like 1 mm wide, even less, film thickness, like a bit of saliva, but with a yellow tint and a bit of dried stuff in the corner of the beak. It would have been a case of wiping it. This vet isn't shy with taking out stuff, he's cleaned my Pepper's beak, which was half necrotic with canker to the point I couldn't watch him doing it anymore. The previous rescue I went with to him had puss in her eye and he just squeezed it out, leaving her eye perfectly clean. I can try it tomorrow, and the nystatin...if he's still alive. He looked so bad when I let him sleep, I'm not sure he will still be with us. God knows I've been waking up to check if he's still alive for 7 weeks now, but this time I'm really not having much to hope on...
Edit: What would be the dosage for Nystatin? You mentioned it but for the liquid. I don't know the concentration of that.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight. The powder form must have instructions, ex so many gr equals so many units of Nystatin. You can measure the whole bottle in ml, then you will now the contents in ml. Post a photo when you get it. You can't really overdose on Nystatin, but we can try and work out exactly how to mix.

Just keep him warm for tonight, that's the best to do for now. xx


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Thank you, Marina, I'm relatively decent with math. If the medicine has UI/g in the prospect I'll figure it out. No matter what happens, know that yours and Columbine's support helped me get through these times. I love all my pigeons to bits, but this one won my heart when he picked the peas from my fingers. No other pigeon ever did that.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Here is another link about visible indicators of health in throat and head, it contains more details and pics than the one I posted days ago. Read it carefully and try to compare the mouth/throat of your bird (you checked it yesterday) with the information given in the link.
It could maybe help you, please give it a look.









Visible Indicators of Health in the Head and Throat


Many of the factors that influence the health of our birds are hidden to the naked eye and it is only through veterinary examination that these are revealed. However, there are external signs that...



www.auspigeonco.com.au





Have you read the links about yeasts infection that I posted days ago? The vet gave you clortrimazole because he "thinks" that yeasts could be only in the respiratory tract?
Or even in the mouth/throat? From what I know nystatin kills yeasts by killing cell walls of fungi. 

I'm praying for your bird and for you.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I've read that topic but I didn't see the beak so well in depth of throat. I was still holding him so could mostly look from a side. 
My vet didn't think from the start it could be a fungal issue, but since everything else failed, I suppose he thought giving it a try won't do more harm. Not like he had another idea about what to do. If anything, I wish he accepted earlier to prescribe an antifungal. At least I'd have known I tried everything.
He's also excluded a viral issue but I'm not so convinced about that either. He says a virus would have cleared by now, but that is not necessarily true, is it? Blue had the pox for almost 2 months. 
I'll work up the courage to look in this beak tomorrow, if I still have what to look at. I can't hear him breathing tonight. Usually I could count his breaths just listening to the door.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

For example PMV virus runs its course in about 6/8 weeks. 

Try to rest now, you need it.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

This is a video from now: New video by Oana Rusu. He had a coughing fit during the night, but was breathing quite ok this morning- like regular speed and beak almost closed, then at some point after the clortrimazole nebulisation he got like this, and has been so for the past 3 hours. I just decided to try nebulise him with acetylcisteine, to at least try and get him some relief, it's painful to watch. It seems to calm him somewhat. I researched clortrimazole nebulisation on birds, there don't seem to be negative things about it, and it is one of the treatments for aspergillosis.
I wrapped him in a towel and my husband held him while I opened his beak: gotta say I managed a much better job than what I saw on monday. He also didn't struggle for quite a long time while I peered in his mouth. What I saw: there are no secretions visible. It looks clean, except a very small bump on the side of the beak, upper part, that seemed to be slightly discoloured compared to the rest. The bump looked from the same material as the rest of the mouth, not some excrescence, just like a bit of swelling, maybe 1-2 mm in diameter, not symmetrical with the other side. I could not tell much about thew tonsils, as I don't know exactly how they should look like when normal, but they did not seem swollen particularly. Definitely didn't have the puffy rounded yellow look the pictures in the article showed, though they did look fairly prominent - like not flat. What did look "wrong" was the trachea opening, which is round, like widely open. Looked like a dark hole. Fits with him breathing like a locomotive. Colour inside the mouth looked fairly light, I can't tell if discolored or rosy - again, no comparison, definitely not blue. No mucus.

I wasn't comfortable with taking him to those tests, but I gathered the poop from last night in the morning and took it to the lab. They had several kinds of tests, but they said there isn't a lot of point for the indepth one, and not even for the middle kind, recommended me a basic test. They just called me to tell me there was nothing particular in the poop, same as they did on monday. His poops were kinda watery with bits this morning, turned proper towards afternoon. He's active if stimulated, otherwise he just sits and breathes. This morning he preened thoroughly, then went straight to food, and he's eaten after that too.

I don't know if a bronchodilator like acetylcisteine is doing anything to soothe him, or what else I could use instead for pure relief. He does look like less struggling to breath after it. If there is something else, would be great to have an alternative that doesn't appear in studies and not particularly recommended.
Considering all these, should I go along with the nystatine?

Edit: the nebulisation seems to have had minimal effect. It really feels like his lungs can't get enough air in them. I have been recommended nebulisation with F10, and I bought the stuff. Anybody knows about it? There are some articles that say it's one of the treatments for aspergillosis, though effects are not documented, but at least it has not been found to be harmfull.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

It won't hurt to give him some Nystatin. I have no experience with nebulisation, so can't give any advice unfortunately.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

According to the article, a round trachea opening is a sign of troubling in breathing...

"A bird that is breathing with ease can relax the muscles of the windpipe, making the opening appear narrow and elongated. If the bird is having trouble getting its breath, several mechanisms are available to it to provide more oxygen. One option is to contract the muscles of the windpipe, which will dilate it and give the opening a rounded shape. The healthy pigeon has a glottis (windpipe opening) that is narrow, elongated with sharp edges and with small spicules along the side. The more rounded the glottis, the more distressed the bird. To provide itself with more oxygen the bird can also breathe faster and deeper. This will cause the glottis to move, in the process elevating the tongue tip."


A fairly light color in the mouth (maybe you could give a look at the mouth of one of your other pigeons) could suggest a light anaemia or, as the article mentions, low blood pressure. 
If you can find the Omni-vit it contains iron and even vit K. If you wants to try to make dried legumes, lentils are a good source of iron.
I read here









The Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine is the only exclusive avian and exotic veterinary hospital in New York City.


The Center for Avian and Exotic Medicine is the only exclusive avian and exotic veterinary hospital in New York City.



avianandexoticvets.com





that "Chronic inflammatory or infections disease may also lead to this type of anemia" but they don't mention which infections...

Honestly I don't know anything about nebulisation, I read too that aerosolized antifungal medication is one of the treatment for aspergillosis.
Yesterday I asked if your vet "thinks" that the fungal infection could be only in the respiratory tract or even in the mouth/throat because I think that nystatin could not kill fungi in the respiratory tract.

About the very small bump - is it maybe possible that it appeared because of the vet test in the mouth?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

As sudden as his heavy breathing started this morning, it calmed a little while ago. He's still opening his beak a little, but compared to earlier, it looks almost normal. His behaviour got normal too. I brought him in for the night and he flew up for sleep and started preening. I don't know if the acetylcisteine has a delayed effect or he just calmed on his own. Regardless of what it is, I'm happy he got some kind of respite.

The difficulties breathing are sorely obvious in how he gasps for breath at 60 breaths/minute, and yes, his tongue moves upwards . Today I even thought about an oxygen tank, but not sure where I would get something like that and how would I use it.

I did inquire the vet about nystatin on monday, and his response was that he prefers something that goes straight into the respiratory system instead of passing through the entire system, which is heavy on the liver. I wonder if that gasping could be caused by some effect clortrimazole has on the liver? the articles said the birds treated like this didn't show symptoms of liver or kidney damage. I'm afraid to even hope, but it's at least somewhat good to not read articles with negative effects from a treatment. Here are the two I found:








Avian Aspergillosis: What Every Veterinarian Needs to Know


What Is It?




todaysveterinarypractice.com












(PDF) Clotrimazole Nebulization for the Treatment of Respiratory Aspergillosis


PDF | Clinical trials utilizing nebulization in treatment of respiratory aspergillosis were conducted on several raptor and psittacine species. | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




There is also a paragraph on F10 nebulisation.

PS:I found Super-vit from Versele Laga, not Omni Vit. It has iron but no vit.K.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

I know, what the article says about the round shape of the trachea (troubling in breathing) doesn't add anything new 😔...that shape is only another sign of respiratory issues...

I'm going to copy an extract from an article about nystatin:









Nystatin oral suspension


Everything you need to know about using Nystatin oral suspension




www.netdoctor.co.uk





"How does Nystatin oral suspension work?

Nystatin kills fungi and yeasts by interfering with their cell membranes. It works by binding to a substance called ergosterol, which is an essential component of fungal cell membranes. This disrupts the cell membrane, causing holes to appear in it.
The cell membranes of fungi are vital for their survival. They keep unwanted substances from entering the cells and stop the contents of the cells from leaking out. As nystatin causes holes to appear in the cell membranes, essential constituents of the fungal cells can leak out. This kills the fungi and treats the infection.

Nystatin is not absorbed into the bloodstream, which allows it to act directly in the area of infection.

(...)

▪ For the treatment of mouth and throat infections the suspension should be held in the mouth for as long as possible before swallowing, as this will keep it in contact with the fungi for longer.

▪ Nystatin oral suspension is not absorbed into the bloodstream and so will not be effective for treating fungal infections or disease involving other areas of the body.

Another article :



Nystatin - LiverTox - NCBI Bookshelf


.


"While nystatin is usually is not normally absorbed, low concentrations may enter the circulation in patients with inflammation and damage to the gastrointestinal tract. Nevertheless, nystatin is considered very safe and is unlikely to cause hepatic injury".

From what I can understand:

nystatin would not be useful in case of fungi in respiratory tract;
it does not cause liver damage.

I read the first article you posted (will read the other one later). I don't know if it's relevant but I noticed that it says:
"Chronic inflammation may reveal nonregenerative anemia."

Have you tried to check the mouth of one of your other birds?


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I didn't, but they are usually a pain in the behind to give vitamins to, they hold their beaks very resolutely shut. Their natural colour might also influence things, my pigeons are all black or grey. My newest rescue (aside from baby) is a mix of black and white but her beak is actually black. I can try it, but I reckon all it would tell me would be a possible anemia with possible multiple causes, including infections. Would that be useful? 
From what you are telling me, nystatin wouldn't really help our respiratory issue and I don't have evidence of a fungal problem in the digestive tract. 
He is currently still breathing relatively ok, but with small coughs every now and then. The night is so long now, with dark from 5 PM to 7 AM that I thought I'd give my birds a bit of light around 8 PM to eat. My finches whine about it, and they went to eat immediately, but my pigeons only proceeded in making noise. The baby got off the wardrobe and considered for a bit sleeping on the bedside table but then changed his mind and went back up - and I assumed he's not interested in eating and turned off his light.
I tried to look for how long is the immunosupressive effect of dexamethasone, but no luck. Still looking for alternatives for support treatment of his breathing instead of the acetylcisteine, that I don't even know if it's working.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Surely anemia (if he really is anemic) would not be the key to identify the source of his breathing issues... As you said, anemia could have multiples causes.

What a complicated situation...


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## beachwood45789 (Jul 15, 2014)

Colombina said:


> Surely anemia (if he really is anemic) would not be the key to identify the source of his breathing issues... As you said, anemia could have multiples causes.
> 
> What a complicated situation...


Hi, you are giving your baby a lot of antibiotcs ,dont forget to give probiotics and electrolytes and apple cider vinegar and vitiamins, antibiotcs kill all of the good flora in in the birds gut you need to restore that good flora


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi,

Dexamethasone is a very powerful corticosteroid and remains in the body longer than most other forms. Tapering the doses should be advisable versus stopping completely. It can cause anemia and weight loss among other side effects. In humans, immunosuppressive effects occur after about two weeks with oral prednisone, but this may happen sooner with dexamethasone.

There may be insufficient studies done on birds regarding dexamethasone, especially with pigeons. And from a cursory search, limited information exists in the literature for humans, but I will have to look harder. Also, dexamethasone remains in the human body for several hours and has a longer biological half-life than methylprednisolone (the active metabolite of prednisone). I suspect it is longer with birds as are most drugs. A tapered dose schedule should be calculated with the biological halflife in mind as well as renal clearance.

Doxycycline can also accumulate in pigeon blood plasma, and dosage should be carefully lowered in long-term treatment regimements. 6-10mg/kg/day is a safe dosage range. 10mg/kg/day for 3-7 days, and 6mg/kg/day for courses longer than that. The only thing is to avoid calcium supplements as doxycycline will chelate and bind around calcium ions. Calcium may be needed afterwards.

Nystatin would be advisable as a nebulised suspension as it can not be systemically absorbed. It has been known to sucessfully treat fungal lung infections such as pulmonary aspergilosis in humans when used in a inhaled suspension with a CPAP device. Nystatin has to be in direct contact to the yeast or fungus, which makes administration difficult in some cases.


I just saw this thread, and have yet to review it in closer detail. Sounds like a very difficult and challenging case. I will try to research dexamethasone a bit further for you.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

Have you been able to give liquid vitamin A? As long as the suppliement is formulated for birds and contains vitamin A, vit. E, and vit. D3 it should not cause an imbalance.

N-acetylcysteine (NAC) as a mucolytic and antioxidant agent. It may loosen mucus and increase fluids in the air sacs and typically is used to relieve mucus buildup (asthma) symptoms. Clear fluids in the air sacs may be impossible to see on X-rays unless they are opaque due to an infection or thick with mucus. The popping or clicking sounds while breathing are sure indicators of excess liquid in the air chambers or a nasal mucus/fluid blockage. This being said, a stethoscope will be handy for auscultation to determine if the sounds are indeed being produced in the lower airways versus in the nares.

Silymarin (standardized milk thistle extract) may be given in the water to prevent liver scarring or fibrosis from excess medication. It is safe for pigeons and has a large safety margin for dosing.

Is the enviroment very humid or dry? I ask, as this can affect certain individual birds and exacerbate breathing issues.

And I agree with others, perhaps a second vet's opinion or diagnosis may shed some much needed light here.

I hope he is improving and only gets better soon.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Thank you very much for the insights Jonrf.
I have been prescribed dexamethasone for another rescue before this one, in conjunction with gentamycin and acetylcisteine, after a 2 weeks round of doxycicline didn't wield any results. Fortunately, that rescue responded very quickly, with symptoms disappearing after the 2nd round (the combo was prescribed nebulised, once every 2 days). We took the treatment to 5 rounds (10 days) as minimal with antibiotics. Unfortunately, after a few weeks (probably 3-4), some symptoms returned in that bird. They do not appear harsh - she breaths normally, beak closed, normal rhythm, but she snores at night and has a slight wheeze occasionally. I'm monitoring her, and considering going back to the doctor, but a combination of lack of time due to caring for the current rescue, which has been harrying, and some doubts about treatments prescribed by my vet have prevented me from taking a decision yet. Meanwhile I'm giving her vitamins.

I researched dexamethasone only after the current rescue started getting worse. He was put on a larger dose - nebulisation daily instead of every 2 days, and was on it for a week. After that, I read about it and got rather scared of the immunosuppressive effects. The vet keeps prescribing it although I shared my concerns with him, but admits it should be given as rare as possible. I did not know about tapering, I've tried to cut it off, but his nasty crises forced me to use it every now and then - i think about 1-2 times per week, though I've had a week or two without any. Last time I used it was 3 days ago, and it didn't look like it had any effect, although I don't know how soon an effect is visible. Same with acetylcisteine, used it last time 2 days ago, minimal difference after it, though he calmed greatly after a couple of hours. It's very hard for me to tell what does something and what not.

3 days ago he was relatively ok in the morning, but a little while later I found him sitting on one wing and breathing deeper and faster. I rushed him in the nebuliser with clortrimazole (was the 1st treatment with it), but after it he got really bad - gasping with beak wide open, standing hunched - I thought that was it. Several hours later he was same - and that's when I decided in a fit of desperation to give him dexa and acetylcisteine. There was some effect but not a lot. Next day, same thing, but only gave him acetylcisteine - same thing. Thing is, when he is gasping it doesn't feel like a wet gasp, more like tachycardia. He did have a wheezing and cough a couple of weeks ago that suggested a blocked nose, but not the current crises - which is why I'm questioning the use of acetylcisteine.

Yesterday I decided to change the tactic. As soon as I saw him starting to breathe harder in the morning, I took him in the balcony quarantine (it's a small enclosed space where he can see my other pigeons, but he can't fly around, as it is basically a shelf) and tilted the window down. I thought maybe the oxygen level gets low in the bedroom with people sleeping in too. Only after his breathing got fairly stable I got him in the nebuliser for the treatment. I missed a few hours yesterday from home, but when I left and when I got back he was breathing relatively ok - as in not normal, but not fast and beak only a little open. Last night, when he went into the usual 4 am crisis, we opened the window and he calmed down. Today he seems fairly stable, I took him in the balcony and will get him the 4th round of Clortrimazole a little later. He should have 3 days of break after today. I don't know if I can say he is better, he's better than he was this week, more like he was a couple of weeks ago. Just checked him and he's got his beak closed now. I'm thinking if it wouldn't be a good idea to let him sleep in the balcony - I'm just concerned of not being able to hear him at night when he goes into a fit, and also thinking if moving him from his familiar spot would stress him. We have a heater in the balcony during the night, 3 of my pigeons sleep there.

About your question about vitamin A, yes, I have been giving him vitamin A+D3 in the water since saturday. Gave him 3 days (3-5 days recommended on the bottle), then a day with ACV, one with vitamins for the rest of the week. I also gave him a multivitamin pill every 3 days - I have something with vitamins, trace minerals, prebiotics and electrolytes. Yesterday I mixed some fresh spinach and carrot shredded in a bowl with seed to make them more appealing but not sure how much interest he took in them. I saw him roaming in it, but don't know if he only picked on the seed. I wonder if mixing the seed with some spinach and carrot juice would help?

Edit: the environment now is fairly humid - it's been foggy recently outside, but not excessively I'd say. We keep @ 22-23 degrees Celsius in the apartment. As for a second vet, my bets bet was the university people, but I didn't get the feeling they are particularly experienced with birds. Other vets I tried in the past flat out refused to see pigeons or admitted they only learn some stuff bout poultry in school and they don't know much above giving broad spectrum antibiotics. I met my current vet years ago at the university, he was there for his Phd, and I got sent to him by somebody from the Romanian Birds Association when I found an injured stork on the side of the road.

Thank you for the sylimarin info - I have bought some and I'll put some in his water if you say it's safe.
As for doxycicline, I had a lot of mixed info about the dosage, started him on 4 mg/day (he is 250 grams), then was told the dose is too low and I raised to 6 mg for the 2nd week. I'm fairly sure I caused aspiration one day when he jerked and the syringe slipped outwards as I was pushing the liquid out. Some people told me to give even higher doses but after consulting with my vet, I stayed at 6 mg. Unfortunately, because the vitamins I have say they contain minerals, I stopped giving them to him during the 2nd week of doxycicline. I resumed after.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

You're welcome. It is very late here, so I appologize that my reply must be quick. I will reply in greater detail tomorrow after doing some research. It could very well be that your pigeon may need extra or supplemental oxygen. Also, it may need a slightly drier environment. Perhaps try to limit acetylcystine and replace with albuterol or salmeterol nebulization per a vet's consultation, as I fear the acetylcystine may increase fluid buildup in the air sacs, especially with high air humidity. The air sacs may take time to heal.

There could be scarring or fibrosis in the tissue. Sounds very similar to COPD and pneumonia patients. In COPD and asthmatic patients, there is an imbalance in their mucus consistency and production and oftentimes is accompanied with an inflammation or proinflammitory process involving an overactive immune system response. In such cases, immunosuppressing drugs are actually beneficial to alleviate the inflammation by decreasing proinflammatory cytokines, thus limiting neutrophil or macrophage activation (and attack) and mitigating further tissue damage. That is, if there is no active infection or other causes like allergic reactions.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

N-acetylcysteine is also a very safe and powerful antioxidant and has its merits if the cause of the air sac irritation and inflammation is due to oxidative stress. But consult with your vet regarding this. It may be more beneificial to loosen mucus than not.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

That is great food for thought. Is there any way to establish a diagnostic for pneumonia? A specific lab test? the acetylcisteine was prescribed by my vet, dosages included. I've tried to research about it, but aside from it causing tachycardia in neonates (birds) and some study made on chicken that resulted in weight loss and other negative impact, I could not find much. You telling me good things about is actually reassuring. It's also pretty hard to tell how much he actually gets in terms of dosage. My nebuliser is a regular human one, not even one of the ultrasound ones. I do the sessions in a cat carrier wrapped in towels. 
My bird was scheduled for a more thorough test on wednesday, but I decided against taking him due to a mix of him looking dreadfully, him being extremely stressed by the visits on monday and the doctor's hands there shaking so badly when he tried to open his beak, that he barely managed to open it slightly (told me to try to look in his throat at home, describing how canker should look like, as I had asked about that). My baby had a throat sample taken at my usual vet and it was pretty invasive even with somebody with sure hands. Still, if it's useful and my bird is more stable, I can try do that test next week. I did a reasonably decent job opening his beak myself.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I understand your concerns. I would feel the same way about causing added stress to a bird, especially one with breathing issues. But, I feel a proper diagnosis should be arrived at. Testing may be difficult but a blood test with a complete white blood cell count should reveal signs of infection or look at inflammatory markers (c-reactive protein levels especially). Oxygen supplementation or the breathing treatments the way you are doing now sounds like what is best for now until further testing. Also, perhaps try keeping the bird warm by using a hot water bottle and providing a cool spot so the bird can adjust. Heat therapy works wonders for birds with many conditions.

There is many new promising research reports surfacing lately using drugs to target estrogen receptors in the airway to regenerate and promote lung tissue healing and restoring lung function in animals. I would speculate this may be true for birds as well, but I am not entirely certain if studies have been done on birds. See, Google Scholar

But it is interesting to say the least, and has great promise treating COPD and emphysema in humans.


It is well past time for bed, but I will respond later.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I will keep your pigeon in my thoughts and prayers, and I hope the little one gets better soon  (Sounds like your bird is in good hands and is receiving proper attention and care. This truly helps.)


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

If you do administer oxygen, you should only do it with a vets advice. Too much oxygen can be harmful actually.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I thought about oxygen, but especially in these times, it's complicated. However, ventilating rooms very well seems to work well. 
He's not had fits for 2 nights. Sniffs and wheezes some, but doesn't go into those bouts of suffocating. Today is the 2nd day of clotrimazole break (was prescribed 4 days on, 3 days off). Eats well, is active - though his movements are more limited since I keep him all day in the balcony quarantine, which is a rather small cage and he can only walk in there. I bring him in at night. Sometimes he pushes himself against the window, wanting to go out. However, this is where the good things stop. He's still breathing a fair bit with beak open, though not as horrid as last week, and not constantly. He still tires and breathes hard when flying, even if he does feel like flying. Basically he is back at how how was before the many antibiotics. 

I'll have to go to the vet with the other rescue - the one before him. Her snoring isn't improving, on the contrary. She behaves and breathes normally, but she sounds like she has a blocked nose at night - more in the evening, less later. She seems to start favoring one of my single males, and I worry about her passing something to him too. She's the one that responded very well to the gentamycin+acetylcisteine+dexamethasone nebulisation, but it seems it didn't actually solve the issue completely.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

It may be aspergillosis. That would explain breathing issues and clear nasal discharge or the snoring sound. Nebulised nystatin would cure that. But histoplasmosis and mycosis are other fungal diseases to rule out, but nystatin should be effective, if not, amphotericin B would work.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I might have made this a bit confusing. I have 2 rescues, one that is in treatment now, and not getting better (Collar), and one that I cared for before and was declared clear 2 months ago (Snowball), but got some returning symptoms. The returning symptoms one - Snowball, is snoring. The current treatment one (Collar) isn't snoring, just sniffling or coughing occasionally. None of them have visible nasal discharge, though Collar had samples taken from his throat a couple of weeks ago and the samples were clear. Which one were you thinking of?

Regarding nystatin, I could not find it in liquid form here. All they have is pills or powder.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I realized you had two when you said "he" and "she", haha. That is what I get for joining the discussion late 

I was thinking aspergillosis as the symptoms match (breathing issues, sneezing, nasal sounds) and the weather has been humid for your area. The mold spores would be high this time of year as well.

Nystatin powder will work if it is fine enough to make a liquid suspension in water for nebulization. Dosing may be a bit tricky to calculate, but your vet should decide the route and dose after confirming aspergillosis.

Perhaps these papers will help: 


http://avianmedicine.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/17.pdf


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/154952249.pdf 

Like I said there are other antifungals that may treat similar conditions, and some work better in certain situations. It would be best to have a definitive lab or culture diagnosis. I was just tossing out a possibility that to me might make sense.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

If indeed it is aspergillosis, nystatin may not work. A combination therapy of a few other antifungals may be needed. It depends on the species and strain of aspergillus.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

I doubt I will be able to get such a detailed diagnostic. Veterinary medicine in my country is pretty primitive, and there are no avian vets in my town. Theoretically it sounded like the people at the university could run some tests, but I did not feel a lot of confidence in their actual practical experience. I'm now worried about Snowball, as I really don't want to go into another roulette of "let's try various antibiotics and see which works". Any idea about what kind of tests could I get for her to establish a diagnostic and treatment? So at least I know what to ask for, if it will even be available.


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## jonrf (Nov 30, 2017)

I would say the University may be your best vet. Perhaps their microbiology department if they do not a veterinary medicine department. They could perhaps do a sputum cytology exam but you may need to collect any mucus or discharge on a plastic sheet and refrigerate for the sample. This may be impossible though. Perhaps they may have suggestions. A swab sample and culture may be the only way. And a microbiology student or class may find it a good learning challenge.

Yes I know what you mean. I always want to know what the exact organism is for a prompt, narrow and effective treatment. It is better than shotgun approaches or using broad-spectrum antibiotics. Most doctors will let the medicine do the hard differential diagnostic steps by a process of elimination. This can lead into increased drug resistant organisms and can be hard on fragile systems and organs. Improper medication use can be a waste of critical time in some cases when the infection is misidentified. Sadly, some doctors will not be able to do the required laboratory diagnostics or be willing to do the effort and simply let the medicine do it for them. This is true even for some (if not most) medical doctors here in the USA when treating human patients. Either they prescribe you a drug and wait, or they treat the symptoms and not determine the cause and treat accordingly. It seems like some are either lazy or do not have the time, skill or means to do a proper diagnosis.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Well, the news is that my vet might actually be able to do specialised tests. I requested a visit to him with my other rescue, and he was able to see me on tuesday. While she doesn't exhibit the same symptoms as the issue one, she has been snoring at night lately and occasionally sounds like she has a blocked nose (no open beak breathing). He listened to her and said she also sounds "wrong" in the trachea area, like the other one. So now I'm listening to both of them at night with my heart in my throat. None other of my 6 pigeons is showing any symptoms, and she has been free for the past 2 months. The vet prescribed only methylene blue in the water until tomorrow, and I'll need to call back to him tomorrow with updates. Still, he pulled out a booklet and I could see all kind of tests in it (they had prices in euros so I assume they are not regularly asked for, but maybe they can order them?). He said he will also have a chat with a colleague from the university to see how to proceed best.

I've been giving both of them (basically all of them, since my non-quarantined pigeons drink from the same recipiet) methylene blue in the water (1 ml/liter) since tuesday. I've also made a mix of crushed garlic, pinch of cinnamon, pinch of turmeric, pinch of coconut oil, raw pollen and pinch of dried oregano leaves and made it into small balls thickened with crushed pellets. I gave the 2 with symptoms 2 balls each and the others one.

Collar (the one this topic is about) has also been on the second round of Clotrimazole nebulisation this week. Tomorrow should be the 4th day, which should be followed by 3 days off. Unfortunately, I've not seen any improvements in his breathing, though his mental state seems better - as in not terrified to death by me. It feels like our original connection is mending. He continues to be active and eating with great delight, but there is no evolution on his condition. He's only had a fit at night on monday, but his breathing during the night still gets loud and fast sometimes. This morning he had a coughing fit of about half an hour. I decided to try Bromhexim pills on him as a mucolitic. He's actually such a joy to watch eating - when I give him fresh seed, as he has favorites, he gobbles them up rapidly, twitching his wings.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

New question, as I scour the internet for an answer: does anybody know anything about Syngamus Trachea? Mainly how to identify it and treat it? Would the Ivermectine drop on the neck have had any effect on it? I administered 2 rounds, at 12 days apart.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi Saphira, I only want to ask how Collar is doing. Did the vet understand what is wrong with him? Did he find the right treatment?

What about the other pigeon, Snowball?

I hope they are doing better.


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## Saphira (Sep 2, 2017)

Hello,

Collar is thankfully still alive and married my widow male, they are currently sitting their second round of eggs.
She never got cleared of her respiratory issues. I had a complex test done in a lab in another town around new year's eve and another round of antibiotics done because they found E-coli, with no results on the respiratory issues. They said she had chlamydia, but no more. Since then, she only got vitamins and I put in their water weekly a product that is supposed to help with respiratory issues (Probac Aerosol by Dr. Brockamp (pigeonsproducts.com) ) She still breathes badly when scared or sometimes at night when sitting on eggs, but otherwise having a normal life.

I see the last post I made was about Syngamus parasite. I searched for a specific dewormer for that and gave it to her (it was also a good immune system booster, I can't recall the name now). I don't know if it was coincidence, but right after giving it to her she stopped having those nightly crisis she had.

Edit: Snowball is well too, the lab tests were done for both. She is married to another of my males and they are too sitting on their2nd round of eggs. She stopped having any issues. She is a keen straw gatherer and nest builder - which is something I never saw in hens. She is also a feisty fighter.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks so much for the update. I'm very happy to hear that both pigeons are having a happy life!

Lol, even some of my females are great nest builders 😅.


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