# Spread Cock - Roller



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Sometime ago I started a thread questioning whether this red cock was spread. It was paired to a blue checker pied hen and some of the young were black pied and lavender. I've attached a picture of a young one from the last round for the season. In all the discussions it was determined that the hen wasn't spread and therefore the cock must be although it doesn't appear to be. Check out the young one.

Thanks,

John


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## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

he really look like an ordinary mealy... even the black flecks are not exagerated...


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well.. do you have any spread birds which have access to your hen?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

No, all my pairs were bred in separate cages. I have only just separated the pairs. This pair laid their first egg mid August and I raised six young from five rounds. Had three clear eggs? and lost one at two days. I have another interesting one from them I would like you to see. I don't think I have a recent picture. I'll take one tomorrow.

Thanks,

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is an older picture of the bird, the one in the front. If it is not good enough I'll take another tomorrow. These two are nest mates from this pair. 

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is another picture of the young bird taken in December. I have no idea what colour it is. I would think it has the spread factor with the absence of the tail bar, but it still shows the bars on the wings. Maybe it's like the cock bird? It looks dirty like some blue bars I have?

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a picture of another young one from this pair. Just like the more recent bird.

John


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

got a pic of the hen? they are for sure ash red birds. spreads and bars by the look of it and probably dirty. but if the hen isn't spread Im not sure...lol


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Here is a picture of another young one from this pair. Just like the more recent bird.
> 
> John


this one looks like two homers i have that i was told are called red grizzle.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is the hen. Not a good picture but it shows all of the bird.

John


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

to me she looks like a T-CHECK pied, so to me you are getting all your reds from the dad.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> this one looks like two homers i have that i was told are called red grizzle.


Not grizzle



horseart4u said:


> to me she looks like a T-CHECK pied, so to me you are getting all your reds from the dad.


Ofcourse the red is coming from the dad, the only thing the hen can donate is blue. the father can give blue aswell

Print Heres the original thread. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/could-this-mealy-cock-be-spread-58533-3.html?highlight=spread+cock

John - I think the black fleck is exagerated enough to say the cock is spread. the hen surely isn't. Also from looking at the original thread we saw photos that show many variations in ash red spreads, Some of NZ pouters T patterns have solid red so therefore I do not see any reason why a barred bird could have solid bars.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> Here is an older picture of the bird, the one in the front. If it is not good enough I'll take another tomorrow. These two are nest mates from this pair.
> 
> John


My bird in post #28 on the other thread looks similar to this one, It is definetly ash red spread carrying blue, I have bred from him and he produced a black hen. I think in rollers atleast ash red spread has a lot of variances.


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

the hens tail looks odd. Like there's no real tail bar but not quite all black?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Pigeonrh said:


> the hens tail looks odd. Like there's no real tail bar but not quite all black?


I would say she's definitely _not_ spread. There is too much colour difference on the wing shield. The light T is clearly visible. I've never seen a T-pattern spread show so much pattern.

I agree that her tail is wierd, but to me, it looks like some kind of dirty that darkens the entire tail. (Maybe similar to what is seen in blackwing archangels). Or otherwise another mutation that changes the tail (makes the bar wider and lighter than usual - if I had to desribe the hen in that picture).


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I am also at a loss at to what the young bird is. Looks like brown to me when it was younger, but obviously looks like a drity ash-red bar now. Also comparing the young pictures with the old, there seems to be more white pied in the head now than there was then. Is that even possible? Or am I seeing the wrong pictures.

I agree that he HAS to be the spread one (assuming there is no way that a lavender cock could have gotten to the hen). Spread expression is much more variable on ash-red than on blue. In cases like these, the only true test of either parent is to do more breeding tests. Pairing him to a different bird that is also not spread, and getting black babies, seals the deal, and you can be certain that he is indeed spread.

[I would then try to figure out why he looks different from his spread babies, there surely has to be some genetic involvement there - but that is just me. I always have an overcrowded loft with all the breeding tests going on! ]


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

test breeding them both to blue bars is what I would do for sure. It's a cool little mystery lol


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

johnbt said:


> Here is a picture of another young one from this pair. Just like the more recent bird.
> 
> John


This one is spread.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

johnbt said:


> Here is another picture of the young bird taken in December. I have no idea what colour it is. I would think it has the spread factor with the absence of the tail bar, but it still shows the bars on the wings. Maybe it's like the cock bird? It looks dirty like some blue bars I have?
> 
> John


This one is indigo.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

johnbt said:


> Sometime ago I started a thread questioning whether this red cock was spread. It was paired to a blue checker pied hen and some of the young were black pied and lavender. I've attached a picture of a young one from the last round for the season. In all the discussions it was determined that the hen wasn't spread and therefore the cock must be although it doesn't appear to be. Check out the young one.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


He has to be the spread one. Let me find you a picture of some other spreads similar to this. The baby here looks spread.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ash-red spread can vary a LOT. Rollers have a lot of funky phenotypes in them to begin with. Here are a couple ash-red bar spreads carrying blue.


























One of my friends had a bred a lot of those dark "black ash" rollers. So if a spread ash-red can look like that, I'm not surprised it can look like your little guy too.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Beautiful birds. Will there be any for sale later this spring?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

John, I am glad you bought this up again when more people have come across it, I was hoping Rudolph and Becky would post on the original thread as I knew they would agree that the red is most likely to be the spread one. 

Atleast now I think you can be as certain as can be without pairing him to a blue bar to see if you get blacks as Rudolph as mentioned.

So it seems you may have indigo, I would not have picked it but Becky seems sure, If this pair carries Indigo you will breed some andalusians in time. Rudolph, Odds on this would be good haha?????. You are always the clearest at working it out IMHO. And then time will tell whether it is Indigo or not.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Ash-red spread can vary a LOT. Rollers have a lot of funky phenotypes in them to begin with. Here are a couple ash-red bar spreads carrying blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like some kind or archangel bronze in the mix here too, I have never seen an ash red spread look this impressive without other modifiers in the mix


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That could be the case for the last two birds, but not the first one because the guy I'm talking about, his wife bred it. The other two are from an australian nut who lives in his own genetic land. But the phenotypes are the same. I've never seen it either but apparently it wasn't that uncommon in his rollers. He said he bred a ton of them. But then again, he and his friends have had a LOT of experience playing with colors.


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## tjad25 (Feb 6, 2012)

Very unique, nice birds


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

"So it seems you may have indigo", I was ok up until here, now I'm confused?

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

johnbt said:


> "So it seems you may have indigo", I was ok up until here, now I'm confused?
> 
> John


Have you ever seen an andalusian? Indigo is a type of bronze, In one dose it turns the bars of a blue bird - bronze.

Indigo with spread on blue creates andalusian. On a red it lightens the colour and has little effect. 

I am doubtful it is indigo, You will get andalusians if it is.

I have bred rollers that look a lot like yours for a while now and I have not ever had any indigo but I have had birds that look like your one that is "indigo"

This is some info about Indigo.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/blueindigo.html


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I also don't think indigo is involved. But I can see why Becky would suggest it, looking att he tail of the barred youngster. But indigo definitely would not leave the bars that color. 

I have to note I have never seen ash-red indigo barred birds before, but by descriptions I've read this doesn't match.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Becky, I am not sure about those pictures you posted. 

The first picrute looks like what I understand an indigo ash-red with dirty modifiers would look like. I do not doubt your friend (or his wife), but I would need to see a lot of scientific evidence before calling that bird a plain old ash-red spread.

The last two are probably not ash-red, or not pure ash-red. If the australian fellow you are talking about is the one I think it is, I really do not trust his descriptions very much.

The second picture could be an ash-red indigo aswell, similar to the first.

The last IMHO is just a plain old dirty indigo, a young bird not fully moulted yet, no other factors there.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a picture taken this afternoon.


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## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

looks like a dirty blue bar but with somethin else to..but not sure what... where'd the other pics go? you said they were bred in individual pens right?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I had to delete the earlier pictures to fit these on. I'll create an album tonight and put them all back on. Yes, all by birds were bred in separate breeding cages. When I am not breeding the cocks and hens are in separate sections of a loft.

John


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It does look like a dirty BB but the tail is not right. The bars don't look red enough for indigo but smokey can change that, which it does look smokey. This might turn out to be one of those "black ash" birds above. I'll ask what he thinks.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looks like a dirty ash red bar to me, I have one exactly the same and he is a red cockbird with dirty carrying blue


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/could-this-mealy-cock-be-spread-58533-2.html?highlight=spread+cock

Becky, Check out post 28 on this thread, He is not the bird I have that is exactly the same as this one but he is similar. He is an Spread ash red cock carrying blue. Looks Smoky on blue but he came from a red hen so has to be red based. I believe like you have said earlier that there is a lot of variance in roller phenotypes even when the genotypes hardly differ. I have seen this in my offspring this year, I have a lot more that look like this bird, I will try get some pics if I have time today. I would be 90% sure that this bird is red based.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

That bird looks a LOT like this one.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Pigeonrh said:


> looks like a dirty blue bar but with somethin else to..but not sure what... where'd the other pics go? you said they were bred in individual pens right?


I've created a few albums to help me manage all these pictures.

This one is the parents. I'll add another album of the spread young ones shortly.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2059


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Two young ones, topic now seems too be working out what colour/ factors the barred bird is.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2060


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Couple more young ones from this pair. I also have a couple of dark checker pieds. The lavender here is a different bird to one in the other picture.

I appreciate all your help with the colours. I started out with a couple of nice rollers I bought at a show mid last year. This is my first season breeding rollers. While I enjoy flying the two kits I have raised I also will show the nicer birds. We have a section in our shows for performing rollers. There is no standard for these birds but I am keen to show some of the nice coloured, evenly marked birds I breed. I had no idea what my breeding birds were carrying or what young I would raise. I now have quite a selection of colours and factors to breed some really nice birds. I have Showpen Homers and Australian Performing Tumblers as well. Last year was my first year showing Showpen Homers. I only breed two birds and managed to win Champion Novice, and best cock and best hen at two shows. I found that it is a long day when you only show two birds so now I have Tumblers and Rollers to enter as well. 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2061


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I believe like you have said earlier that there is a lot of variance in roller phenotypes even when the genotypes hardly differ. I have seen this in my offspring this year, I have a lot more that look like this bird, I will try get some pics if I have time today. I would be 90% sure that this bird is red based.


Scientifically speaking, you should be able to figure out what changes in the genotype causes which changes in phenotype. It is quite possible that you have a gene in the roller stock that doesn't have a name and symbol yet, which changes the normal ash-red to these dark ash-reds. If you have bred a lot, and kept good records, you might even be able to figure out whether this ash-red darkening factor (or whatever you choose to call it [them]) is dominant or recessive, multi-factor, etc. Once you have formed a hypothesis, you can create specific breeding tests to proove it again, though your historical results could be useful too.

This is to me the most exciting part of pigeon genetics. Explaining things that aren't quite explained before. (Or even re-creating earlier results by other beeders.) One of the most important pillars of science is that all experiments can be re-created by others to give the same result. If the result cannot be recreated, obviously the original study then needs to be re-evaluated, and is very much called into question.


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