# Unusual infection under the Skin



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 




I have not run into this sort of thing before, so I am hoping some of you may have some wisdom for me.


Adult feral, good weight, eating, poops are pale green and sort of 'off' a little. Urates are white...Nares are mealy grey instead of 'white'...which one sees with many illnesses of health compromises.


Anyway, his belly and the area below his Keel and on down and to the sides, is all 'squishy' and 'weeping' in some areas causing the Feathers to look damp.

This seems to be getting worse, or else I just looed at it better tonight than I had yesterday night.


Through the transparent Skin, one sees either white or yellowish white curdled looking material in clear liquid, or, the skin is not transparent but is loose, dry looking, wrinkles easily to the touch, and there is liquid under it. So it is like 'Cellophane' over Liquid, in effect...if feeling thinner than that would.

I did not find any punctures or wounds anywhere, but I need to look again.

He does not like being handled, and examining him had been difficult, but he made a good effort to oblige.


Smell last night was like bad people poop smell...I liberally applied 'Neosporin' to the areas, and, also got him onto 'Baytril' and 'Metronidazole'...smell is much less today/tonight...


He is standing well, but is moderately weak...but looking better today than he was yesterday.


What is this?


What should be done?


Any ideas?


Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil, the curdled looking material is pus. That's the way bird pus looks and for it to be so advanced, this has been going on a while. This is a bird that needs to see a vet and the" material" cultured. It could be is staph. Staph smells really bad. JMPO


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Probably better get him on a combination of drugs, like a Tetracycline and Metronidazole. A picture might be a good idea, too. There could be something going on inside the abdomen that's working on coming through to the outside like making a fistula. That'd be one for a vet. You probably need to get the feathers trimmed around the area in order to find the source of the problem.

Pidgey


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

In addition to the drugs, I would suggest put some tea tree oil on the area.

"TEA TREE OIL (Melaleuca alternifolia)
INTRODUCTION:
Tea tree oil has three remarkable properties which make it a powerful healing substance.

First, it is a strong organic solvent. It dissolves the lumps of white blood cells which make pus and allows your blood stream to clean them away, helping to clear infections like boils, sores and ulcers. It also penetrates through the skin and reaches otherwise inaccessible sites such as under the fingernails.
Second, it is an efficient antiseptic. It kills bacteria fast, even stubborn germs like Staphylococcus aureus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Escherischia coli. This has been proven in laboratory testing by Associated Foodstuff laboratories of Australia (AFLA) and E.M.L. Consulting Services. What's more, tea tree oil kills bacteria even more effectively in living tissue than in the test tube, unlike many synthetic antiseptics. It works well in the presence of organic matter. Tea Tree oil does this without damaging healthy cells.

Third, tea tree oil is an effective fungicide which means that it has countless applications for skin conditions. And as an added bonus, tea tree oil is soothing on application. It takes away pain. 

Clinical Studies have shown some Antiseptics don't penetrate below the skin's surface, where it really counts!
Tea Tree Oil gets deep below the skin's surface to kill germs, remove pus and soothe the skin. And best of all, it's 100% natural!
+++
MELALEUCA IN THE AVIARY
As an antiseptic, fungicide, and infection/pus remover, Tea Tree Oil should make a great treatment for bumblefoot and scaley leg. (Staph and mites)"

I'd dilute it though, perhaps adding a few drops to the neosporin. I've experimented with tea tree oil to see if I can prove the research out. It does make zits go down fast, and actually cured some old lady's nasty toenail that had been fungus filled and infected for years. I love willing human testing. Better than animal testing. lol. My husband, however, hates the smell so I can't use it on my zits as often as I'd like.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I have used Tee Tree Oil on skin blemishes and it works great. I have heard from a co worker mix Tea Tree with water and gargle and it will knock out a sore throat.
It has also helped with my sinuses at times.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> Phil, the curdled looking material is pus. That's the way bird pus looks and for it to be so advanced, this has been going on a while. This is a bird that needs to see a vet and the" material" cultured. It could be is staph. Staph smells really bad. JMPO




Thanks Charis, 


I had called for an Appointent to see my Vet today ( I called them and left a message before I went to bed ) forgetting that today was a darned 'holiday' and that they are closed till Monday.

Only had him barely three days...

One of the feral flock, he was just standing on a shelf late at night, outdoors, so I talked with him, picked him up, gave him a look-over, did not see anything wrong, set him up in a clean Cage with Water and Seeds, pending discoveries.


Next day, I smelled the 'smell' while examining him again, but could not find where it was coming from, so started him on Baytril and Metro...then found one area which was wierd, damp, had curdled stuff under the skin.


Next day, found more ajacent to the area I found initially...


Feathers all lay normally on these areas...



I looked for any small punctures and could not find any...will look again today.


Oye..


Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Probably better get him on a combination of drugs, like a Tetracycline and Metronidazole. A picture might be a good idea, too. There could be something going on inside the abdomen that's working on coming through to the outside like making a fistula. That'd be one for a vet. You probably need to get the feathers trimmed around the area in order to find the source of the problem.
> 
> Pidgey




Hi Pidgy, 



I can switch him on to Oxytetracycline easily...I do not have injectable, but the add-to-water kind.


What the heck would cause this do you think?

A little puncture which brought Baceria under the skin there?



Anyway, I will start him on the Oxytetracycline in a little while...I am just waking up now and having a cup of Coffee..


Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

philodice said:


> In addition to the drugs, I would suggest put some tea tree oil on the area.
> 
> "TEA TREE OIL (Melaleuca alternifolia)
> INTRODUCTION:
> ...




Hi Philodice, 



Sounds interesting...

If the Health Food Store(s) are not cloed to-day, I will definitely get some and start using it on his belly area.


I wonder - may one mix a litle 'DSMO' with it? To help carry it through the skin a little better? ( Diluting the whole with either distilled Water, or an Herb Tea or something? )


Now, the "Tea Tree Oil"...is this strictly a medicine for 'topical' applications?


One does not give it ( or dilute versions of it ) 'Orally' as well? Or...?


Thanks so much..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...just called the several Health Food Stores I go to...looks like everyone is 'Closed' to-day.


I hate that..!


Lol...


Yeeeeeeesh...


I am WORKING to-day! and so should everyone else be!!!!!


"Holliday-Schmalliday"...



Love, 

Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Usually, skin infections cause eruptions and dermatitis. You seem to be indicating that something's bubbling up from underneath the skin. That's what's worrying me--it almost sounds like a fasciitis by your description. Picture?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 





Picture would be hard to do, since I have to hold him with both hands to steady him, and, to part the Feathers to be able to see the effected areas...and hs IS a 'Wiggle Worm'...( but getting better at letting me do things ) .

But...I will try.


Infection is "under" the Skin, and I am worried the Skin is dieing since it does not have the right elasticity in some areas, and resembles 'Cellophane' and has lost it's elasticity and wrinkles when touched.


Or that is to say, the Skin is 'loose' and and these areas feel 'squishy' for having liquid under the skin, and, the infection is not topical or appearing to be infesting the Skin itself, but is likely preventing the Skin from having it's proper circulation since the Skin is seperated from the under-lieing tissues.


Since I can not get any 'Tea Tree Oil' to-day ( or looks like I can not anyway )...


In your opinion, would it make sense to add some "DSMO" to some concentration or other of Oxytetracycline-Distilled Water ( or Tap Water ) solution, and to swab this onto the effected areas?


I'd sure like to at least get something underway to-day for him...



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you certainly could (the DMSO and other stuff), but the affected skin might already have died and is actually holding corruption inside.

Pidgey


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## EgypSwiftLady (Jan 14, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> ...just called the several Health Food Stores I go to...looks like everyone is 'Closed' to-day.
> 
> 
> I hate that..!
> ...


 Hi Phil,
I bought my tea tree oil at Walmart but I'm sure you can get it at Walgreens and they are most likely open today.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

EgypSwiftLady said:


> Hi Phil,
> I bought my tea tree oil at Walmart but I'm sure you can get it at Walgreens and they are most likely open today.




Hi EgypSwiftLady,



Thank you..!

I will go and see...


Phil
l v


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Good luck with your pijie, Phil! I hope you get him figured out and fixed up soon.


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

You can eat tea tree oil. It works on internal parasites and fungus. Almost a miracle plant...I find that tea tree oil in the grit gets on the face, keeps mosquitoes off the face and even prevents pox.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Philodice, 



Thanks for the info...


I did go to 'Walmart' ad the only kind I oculdfin was for Hair and Scalp treatments,nd i has aloe Vera, and Vitamine E and anti-fugals in it.


I will try some Health Food Stores to-morow for the 'Plain' kind.



Anyway...up to my earlobes today in Bird things...


Boiled 'Saline' is still cooling, acccoutremon layed out, and in a little while I will see about trying to do some things for the under-the-skin infection issue...



Thanks..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, I have to say this is one very co-operative and patient Pigeon...


I did lightly 'Tape' his Legs and Wings to keep them still and 'down' and away, and he did not strain against that.


Got him layed on a Towel against the inside of my Leg as I sat...so he was elevated, and cradled, and I cut away a lot of Feathers very carefully, in order to be better able to assay the situation.


Looks different today than it did yesterday, the lower area seemed much better and 'clearer', and the upper, either worse, or maybe just I could see better now, how bad it is.

Some images here


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/infection-beneath-t/


Anyway, I cut a 3/16ths inch lenticular aperature through the skin, pinching it so it was protuberant to do so ( not easy to cut! I have to sharpen those Cuticile Scissors I guess...) , and the liquid beneath it did not seem to want to drain easily but merely wept out of the aperature.

I inserted a Julianne-cut end, small short Catheter which is fitted to a Syringe, and I flushed out the area from the inside using Sterile Saline Solution ( 'tepid' ) and after a few rounds of that, I switched to Sterile Saline which had a good slug of Water borne Oxytetracycline in it, and, after a few rounds of that, I left the then 'Bubble' be, filled as it were with the Oxytetracycline-Saline solution, which I expect will weep out at liesure, pending our next go-round.


I could not tell if there were two delaminate or seperate layers of Skin, or some embrane seperate from and beneath the Skin, which was confining the liquid below...where I had maybe only got my aperature through the outer Skin proper...so later, when we do this again, I will try and get a better sense of that...but, the loose 'blister' as it was, did behave in a way which suggested that there were two layers which were seperate, and that I had maybe only got the outer one.


None the less, it inflated well with the Saline, and each inflation I blotted it gently with clean cloth to cause it gently release the liquid it was containing.


There was not any particular smell to this liquid, so possibly the prior odor was of the liquid having been weeping and being exposed to the Air, or external Microbes decomposing it.


He behaved extremely well, and I let him look off and on so he could see what I was doing.


He is back in his cage now, looking bright-eyed and standing nicely.



I have made his Drinking Water now to be Medicated with Oxytatracycline, but I need to double check my math on arriving at the dose...since the packet I have is for making 200 Gallons or something.



Any thoughts or ideas on what all else I could do?


I was thinking to either apply the Tee Tree Oil I did get, such as it is...or, 'Neosporin', or Nitrofurizone Powder, Topically, to the effected areas...


Thanks everyone for your advices and encouragements with this...



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's actually up there near the crop, huh? Maybe something rotted through or there was a puncture wound.

Pidgey


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Put what you got on the area topically, not on the incision though. I personally feel that tea tree oil products are too strong to put on an open wound or bad sunburn, the product can cause irritating itching. I once had a friend who got a really bad sunburn along with all my other friends tubing the Salt river. I made up a special cream of fresh aloe, vitamin E, lanolin, and shea butter with a dash of lipton iced tea in it to make it more liquid, along with a few drops of tea tree oil. This brought instant relief to all my friends, took the pain and burn right out of it. I didn't have a burn, I wore a full suit.  So one friend pointed out that I wasn't testing it on myself so how would I know what was best?
Anyway, this one friend insisted on using her own tea tree oil from a spray bottle. Five minutes later she was 'burning all over' and came running to me for my special mix. ROFLmAO.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Yikes! poor guy...sure hope you can "fix" him!

That is some type of infection...looks very strange! Sure would be interested to know what would cause something like that!

Wishing healing thoughts with love and hugs!

Shi


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

All the brown that you see is dead stuff. It looks to me that there was crop leakage under the skin and it's rotting out. For the rehabbers, in picture #2, you can see the front point of the keel (called the "carina") just to the right of the browned area and pointing virtually straight up.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



The pictures I had made were not-the-best...


And things were a little hard to see, not only in the images, but for me, holding him even.


The infected area does not seem to have communicated with the Crop, but is isolated from it and appears to have originated from a couple of small contusion or impact injurys, one high and center against the Keel, and one lower to the side on the Breast muscle area.


Anyway, finally, last night late, I felt half-way good enough to see about continuing some proceedures with him.


Got my little Tray set up and supplies arranged...visited with him a little in Big Bird 'Hand Nest', and, used a big 'Twist Tie' to gently restrain his Wings and Legs down by the Tail.


Got him on a vertical incline rumpled Towel against my inside thigh as I sat, and, found everything had changed a LOT since the day before.


No 'bubble', the Skin which had been over the 'bubble' looked like Skin again, compete with 'goose-pimples'...and what had been a brown-grey colored area, was dark red, and the surrounding areas looked like they were no longer infected, but, instead, beginning to heal.

What had been flaccid 'bubble, the day before was now 1/3rd the size, and looked like Skin over rounded Muscle and no longer had the 'Cellophane' quality.


I was not sure what to do...so, I just looked at this quite a bit, then elected to slather all with 'Neosporin'.


There are some places of erosion on his Keel edge, and, a depression in the effected muscle area ( between it and the Keel ) which does not corespond to the shape on the non-effected side.

Lots of 'pink' and 'white' of the Keel proper can be seen.


I will see about some images later today, and whatever else I can report then.


Till next..!


Thanks!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, don't that beat all! I guess we'll just have to wait and see the pictures.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Added some pics


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/infection-beneath-t/


Certainly not pleasant looking intrinsically, but does not have the entirely horrible appearance it did previously.


I am thinking to sluice things out again via Syringe and Catheter and Medicated Saline by inserting the Catheter end under the Skin there.


He seems a little stronger today than he did two days ago.


Standing well, has a nice full Crop presently, and made a big greyish-brown with white Urate poop, out of nervousness when I set him on my lap to examine him just now.


Ideas?


Suggestions?


Opinions on whether what I have done so far was deficient or negelected anything?


I was going to remove what seemed to be 'dead' skin, and whatever was 'dead' looking under it...but seeing how things were looking, I have not done so.


Presently, the infected area is a dark 'red' and no longer brown-grey.


Skin appears to be snug against underlieing Muscle, and is firm, and not appearing to be dessicated or loose...muscle there is same kind of firm as the Healthy side is.




Phil
l v


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Wow, that's amazing! Interesting case studies you get.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

On picture #6:

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/infection-beneath-t/mvc-616s.html

You can see the edge of living sking skirting around some of the abscess. Wherever it's pink, that's living. Wherever it's brownish, that's dried skin covering over whats left underneath. The yellowish portion with a reddish cast is the exposed keelbone.

This thing's going to take a loooooonnnngg time to heal, there's no easy fix. With systemic antibiotics, the body will shove out the likely bacterial infection(s) and the remaining mummified skin will retain a scablike covering that'll serve pretty well. Eventually, scar tissue will form underneath and the bird will probably worry the debris off in a month or two. The surrounding tissues will attempt to tractor the feathered skin over the area and may very well succeed in a few months. What's really hard to say is how well that main flight muscle will fill back in and whether he'll get back up to par enough to be releasable.

Pidgey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

You are doing a great job with this guy. I can't add anything to what Pidgey already said. Time and antibiotics will take care of this. In six weeks I think you will have a pretty healed bird. Looks like the skin barrier was perforated somehow and the infection spread in the connective tissue under the skin. As soon as the infection was interrupted, the next step is to let the body build new tissue and get rid of the debris.

You sure do get some of the unusual cases!

Margaret


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Certain spider bites cause necrosis of the tissue. Wonder if he lay down on an irritable arachnid? Years ago, one of our dogs had a small area on her belly that died and sloughed off - the vet suggested spider or scorpion. Seems like the supportive care you are providing is working, with the saline flushes and Neosporin. One very lucky bird!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

TerriB said:


> Certain spider bites cause necrosis of the tissue. Wonder if he lay down on an irritable arachnid? Years ago, one of our dogs had a small area on her belly that died and sloughed off - the vet suggested spider or scorpion. Seems like the supportive care you are providing is working, with the saline flushes and Neosporin. One very lucky bird!


Phil sure lives in an area where a bite like you describe is possible, especially Scorpions!

So far, so good, Phil...Hope all continues to go well!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi everyone, 



Well, I have just been on 'Needles-and-Pins' with this, and I as feeling really bad with how the injury had been dessicating...even though I got the infection cleared up so well and all.

Wiser heads than mine advised that the desication is normal and there is nothing one can do about it anyway...so...


Bird himself is such a sweetie, "wild" yes, but all things consiered, very patient and obiliging and brave to have put up with me so well.


Went to the Vets today, and the dessicated material, like an old fashioned 'Breast Plate' which Soldiers used to wear hundreds of years ago, a whole 'shell' was there and seperated slightly from his Body...

So, we fiddled a little, snipped a little, and off it came, and under it is healthy, good looking, 'raw' Keel and Breast Muscles...and there was some loose puss-debris stuff which came off easily with a little Peroxide sluicing.


Ajasent Skin is too far apart for any ready suturing, and Doc was apprehenive about trying, since that area tends to be under quite a bit of tension if the Bird electes to do any Wing flapping...


So...golly...


"Time"...

And patience, I recon...


All in all, he looks good, is nice and 'Solid' and Strong...good weight, and bright eye'd...



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You gonna' update your pictures?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh, yes...I have been deficient in keeping up with that...


'Soon' ( later tonight )



Thanks..!


Heck, I was supposed to have done that DAYS ago...


Just been swamped...



Phil
l v


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Glad to hear this little patient is progressing! Interesting that the "breastplate" (so like a scab?) was protecting healthy regrowth!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might as well give an update on this one, Phil--it's been awhile.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 



Thanks for asking..!


I had been wanting to add more images to his Album, but was having Camera troubles then was just busy and distracted.



Anyway, last two images are five minutes ago -

http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/infection-beneath-t/



He is VERY 'wild' now and does not want to be held or fussed with...

Dense Feathers cover the new skin on what had been the large area where after the infection subsided, it was all bare muscle and bare Keel...


All of this really grew in SO fast I was quite amazed...grew in from the periphery of course, in about a month at most, and for that while, I kept the area liberally slathered with the 'Silva Sulfadine' Ointment, which worked splendidly.


I found a two inch long, very thin, clear Worm in his Water bowl about ten days ago, so, I gave him a Worm Pill then, and another one just now.


I will figure to release him I recon in a few days or so.


He is solid and strong and way ready to go back to where-ever he left off out there in the World...


Thanks again Pidgey for your moral and technical support when I was initially dealing with his issue of the large liquified region under 'cellophane' skin.


Everything went very well, all through...


I just wish I would have taken a picture of the 'Breast Plate Armor' artefact once it came off, since it was so large and impressive and 'rigid'...being the dead skin of his alost whole chest and Keel and all the dessicated inflamitory debris which had built up...very much like the Chest Armor the Conquistadors used to wear...and uch larger than I had supposed the afflicted area to have been.



Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, good to hear! They've got remarkable healing powers, really--far better than us. Every now and then they just need a little help from us... 

Of course, every now and then they need a forever home, too.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

What an incredible recovery with your excellent care! Wishing a long life to this little bird!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

MANY THANKS for the update, Phil!!

Wishing this remarkable healing pij all the best and a looooong life!!

YOU and PIJ did GRRRREAT!

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

Awesome! And I'm happy that he has gone back to the wild. Most likely a spider bite, your theory has to be right.


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