# Baby pigeon gasping for air, HELP Please



## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

One of the babies that Im hand raising because the mother abandond them is gasping for air hes got a moderately filled crop, Is he sick??? How do I help him???

P.S. His poops seem Fine and he looks kind of sleepy


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

He could be overheated. Do you have him under a heat lamp?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Imorales4,


Yes...if over heated, they can appear to be gasping, but, usually it is more like rapid open-Beak panting.


How have you been feeding him? And, what have you been feeding them?


Can you post some images of him, himself, and, also, of his freshest poops?


If they get food or liquids into their wind Pipe or Trachia from feeding mis-haps, one would tend to see 'gasping' starting right then.


This would tend to be lethal within minutes, or hours...or to occasion a complex pneumonia which would usually be lethal within a couple days.


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Ive been feeding Kaetee exact formula through a syringe, and these are the pics you asked for


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Heres the chick he breathes really heavily and acts like theres something in his throat


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

He has not digested much of his food today he and the other two that I am raising where fed 35 cc this morning and the other two had almost completely digested it and he was only halfway through with the food that was still in his crop


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Have you looked in the mouth/throat to be sure there isn't something lodged in there or perhaps canker growing that is causing the breathing problem?

Please post back ASAP, and we can take it from there. 

I'm sorry the youngster is having a problem, and good luck to you and the baby.

Terry


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Yea I looked down his throat and it looked clear, what do u think is happening to him???


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, I don't know what is wrong, but I would suggest supplying supplemental heat for the little one (heating pad on low, low wattage light bulb, hot water bottle) that it can move away from if not needed. Also suggest syringing about 3 cc's of apple cider vinegar water or baking soda water and no further feeding tonight and see where we're at with the crop in the morning.

As a just in case measure, do you have any canker meds on hand?

Are there are kind of clicking sounds when the youngster breathes?

Terry


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

I do have a 4 in 1 that should work for canker plus I have some pennicilin if that might help, I will get the apple cider vinegar in him as soon as possible, thank you for all the help


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Let's just do the apple cider vinegar water for tonight and see where we're at in the morning. It's not pure ACV that you need to give but diluted .. perhaps about 3 good drops of ACV in the 3 cc's of water.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Imorales,



This would appear to be Canker...and or has all the Hallmarks of it anyway.

Infection centers may be in the Esophagus or down form there also...even if the Throat appears clear.


If his Crop is no longer passing normally, consider it is probably located at or in the Proventriculus as well.


He can still poop for a while even if the Crop is no longer passing or passing slowly.

Metronidazole would be best, if you can get some..."4-in-1" if that's all you have.

Canker Babys typically end up in the open Bealk Breathing mode.


For right now, if Liquids will pass...make up some 3 to 4 Tablespoons to a Gallon of ACV Water, and, mix a small batch of 4 in 1 with that, and, tube it in to his Crop.


Keep him warm, of course.


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

He has only passed a little bit of food from his crop, and this is his newest poop, Ill whip up the batch of 4 in 1


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...the good news is that the baby is still alive...

Could it be that he aspirated ? 

I guess if this suddenly happened after a recent feeding, and had shown no signs before...it was an acute change after a feeding. If so, I personally do not know how to deal with that, but perhaps someone else does ?

4 in 1 is less than optimal in situations of acute symptoms. Metronidazole is much better; one should alwaays have some on hand, so please do get some ASAP...although even in this instance, if the mouth and throat looks clear...it is just an educated guess that Metro will help.

I cannot particularly add anything else other than my best wishes and vibes...praying the baby turns for the better.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Advice from our good friend, member *Charis* (who is unable to post at the moment):

The baby may well be aspirating. There might be some food down in the lungs....which is being exacerbated by the slowly-emptying crop which is likely pushing down on the internal respiratory organs and causing the laboured breathing.

It could also be that she has just developed an infection which is compromising the passing of food. Due to that, the crop is full, longer, and this is weighing down the respiratory system.

If the crop is emptying slowly, the baby needs two things immediately:

1) put in a very warm environment (we are talking an ambient temperature of 80-85 degrees F )

2) given some warmed *appleasauce* mixed with water. Maybe 1 cc maximum if the crop is still half-full. This is the same idea as Terry's ACV. The apple is intended to return a proper pH to the crop so it functions better. The applesauce is a good agent to transmit that because once in the crop in its glutinous state - you should massage the crop very gently so the sauce can actually help break up the food mass before it becomes too static and causes more problems.

If you have already done ACV, don't do the applesauce. But if you haven't, then do the appleasauce in lieu of the ACV. But with the ACV, you gotta make sure some gets ingested.

3) Antibiotics should be begun. I (me, Jaye) guess Penicillin is OK if that is all you have. Dosing such a small bird, however....i don't really know the proper dosage for Penicillin. Hopefully someone else can chime in on that.

If Phil thinks canker is also a possibility, one could do Penicillin plus Metronidazole (but you need to get some Metronidazole). I (me, Jaye) still don't think 4 in 1 will do much...it's just too diluted to get enough in there to be effective, particularly in a baby in a weakened state.


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

Just A Thought Is The Crop Hard ? Sometime Hand Feeding I Have Over Fed The Exact And The Crop Has To Have Water To Digest The Feed . Just Another Thought.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The Baby pretty well certainly has Canker...

Yellow Orange, flat, paint like Urates do not occur with Pnuemonias or over-fed or other possible Crop passing troubles unless Canker is present somewhere in their system.


I would urge that this Baby be regarded as suffering from Canker, whether or not any Aspiration Pneumonia is present, and, probably, thankfully, it is not.


"Warm" would be 103 - 107 degrees or so...and this is the temperature one would aim for, so the Baby or invalid is able to maintain a core temperature close to normal.

One has to set up an actual, individual condition and to frequently check the Bird, to permit a cirrect and actual proper degree of warmth.

It is ridiculous to be so often talking about how it is enough to merely turn up a central heating thermostat to 85, and that doing so would be enough.

Is the Baby or Invalid covered in a Cage? Is the cage draped? On and on and on.


Babys in Nature will die of hypothermia when ambiernt temperatures are 85...they have to have their Core temperatrure close to what it needs to be.

They will die of hypothermia or secondary issues, if pre-endothermic or too ill to make Body Heat, and kept at 85 degrees...or if kept at 90.


Their normal, Body Temperature is 106.


Do it right.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> The Baby pretty well certainly has Canker...
> 
> Yellow Orange, flat, paint like Urates do not occur with Pnuemonias or over-fed or other possible Crop passing troubles unless Canker is present somewhere in their system.
> 
> ...



That statement is incorrect Phil. When I raised my first rescue babies of about 2 days old, I hand fed them, and raised them in a temperature of 85 to 90 degrees. They are very happy adults in my loft today. So making a blanket statement like that is just ridiculous. Giving advice and helping is great, but negating anothers advice, with a statement like that is just rude.


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Let me start by saying thank you to everyone who tried to help me, unfortunately the baby did not make it he started having fits and was spasoming uncontrollably and died... Ive also been raising two other babies who where not related to this one could you please help me make sure that what happened to this baby does not happen to the other two babies, they seem to be doing well but so did this baby before he went down hill all of a sudden so please keep helping.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jay3 said:


> That statement is incorrect Phil. When I raised my first rescue babies of about 2 days old, I hand fed them, and raised them in a temperature of 85 to 90 degrees. They are very happy adults in my loft today. So making a blanket statement like that is just ridiculous. Giving advice and helping is great, but negating anothers advice, with a statement like that is just rude.



You are mistaken.


Pre-endothermic, Wild Bird Babies die of hypothermia or of associated resulting illness additionally, in 85 degree ambient temps.


How did you determine the actual Temperature the Babys themselves were? To insist that 85 degrees is the right temperature for them?


This just makes no sense whatever.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

lmorales4 said:


> Let me start by saying thank you to everyone who tried to help me, unfortunately the baby did not make it he started having fits and was spasoming uncontrollably and died... Ive also been raising two other babies who where not related to this one could you please help me make sure that what happened to this baby does not happen to the other two babies, they seem to be doing well but so did this baby before he went down hill all of a sudden so please keep helping.




Please post good, clear, close up images of the other Babys, anmd, of their daily freshest poops.


We can then keep an Eye on things...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> You are mistaken.
> 
> 
> Pre-endothermic, Wild Bird Babies die of hypothermia or of associated resulting illness additionally, in 85 degree ambient temps.
> ...



Phil, I had no idea at the time of what temps to raise them in, so I looked online, and it was one of those online sites where info was given on raising babies. So I used a reptile ceramic heater, over them, and kept a thermometer next to their nest. It was always between 85 and 90. You can get different info from different sources.
My babies survived just fine with no problems. So to say they will die at those temps is inaccurate. I have since learned that higher temps are better, but my babies did fine.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm not trying to argue with you Phil, but all I know is that this is the info I got, and it worked for us.
Here is where I think I got the information: And this is what it tells you to do.

Here's some information to get you started.
Keep the baby warm (at least 80 degrees).
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/babypigeoncare.html


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Aaaaah...well, that news is very sad. Gosh, babies as young as that are so very fragile. My heart goes out to you, lmorales. Thanks for trying. The baby is in a better place now.

I think it sorta unnecessary to take this thread on a digression any longer. But I will just chime in that the 80-85 degrees ambient temp. was what was instructed to me by my avian vet. This is why I go with it.

Really..._everyone was pretty much suggesting the same thing_...warmth, a jump-start to the crop by administering something which would adjust the pH....and antibiotics. Nobody disagreed with any of that. Unfortunately, a baby that young isn't robust to last such a particular condition very long....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I had a young one with open mouth breathing.. for serveral days.. took him in..checked for all the things it could be.. nothing...he got xrayed.. turns out his internal organs were in the wrong areas than they should of been.. just was not meant to be.. he lasted untill his organs failed.. not to say that is the case here.. just saying one can never know over a computer screen... sorry about your little one..


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Heres two of there latest poops


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Heres poop 2


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Heres the first baby


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Heres baby 2


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Imorales,


If it were me, I would be treating these two Babys for Canker ( whether or not you see any inflammitory debris in the Mouths or Throats.


There is nothing mysterious or vague about whether or when an older - old enough to be endothermic - Baby is putting out enough heat for themselves - 

One merely holds them on one's Palm, so they are laying down, and, their relatively un-Feathered underside will definitely be much warmer than one's own Bodty Temperature.


If a Baby or Squeaker is ill or has suffered privations, their endothermy can fail or diminish, where, one would then elect to orchestrate some form of carefully arranged supplimental Heat, in such a way, as for the Bird to be both comfortable, AND, for their core Temperature to be close to it's necessary 106 degrees.


The Two present Babys are probably not experiencing a failure of body heat production, so, lesser or merely casual supplimental warmth would be fine, and, worth doing, to allow them to conserve their resources.


In order to use the "4-in-1" correctly, you really need to establish their Weight, and, to co-relate that with the concentration of Medicines in the product, to arrive at an appropriate and sure daily dose.

Or, maybe, just mix up a quart to a 4 X concentration, and, use one part that to three parts ACV Water for their Formula mixing...and or 2 parts that and 2 parts ACV Water for formula Mixing, with plain Water being offered ( "tepid") between meals.


Babys need quite a bit of hydration, so between meal drinking is best.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Thank you phil for all your help but I have a question the 4 in 1 that I have is in pill form how would I convert that for the body weight? should I crush it and put it in the water?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

We can't really correlate the 4 in 1 dose to the weight of the bird without knowing A) the weight of the baby and B) how much medicine is in each tablet. LMorales, if you can provide the needed info, we can probably figure out how much of a tab to give. Personally, I would just go ahead and give 1/2 tab of the 4 in 1 to each baby for right now.

I'm very sorry the first baby was lost. From my own sad and personal experience, it is extremely difficult to bring one back from the open mouth "gasping" that yours was experiencing. It is heartbreaking, and I feel for you and the lost baby.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I assume a "4-in-1" Tablet is a dose which roughly anticipates a full grown Homing Pigeon.


So, on that basis, 1/4th of a Tab-a-day, per youngster, would probably be just fine.


If you wanted to begin by giving each one half a Tab, right now, it would be a little high, but would not likely hurt them for a one time, start-'em-heavy and level off from there dose.


I am used to the "4-in-1" being a Powder.


Anyway, that ought to be easy then, open a Beak and put in the 1/2 or 1/4 tab far back enough so they swallow, and, make sure they swallow and that it is not lodged in the neck somewhere or spat out.

Are the two showing good appetites?


Enthusiastic about feed time?



Phil
Lv


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## lmorales4 (Jul 8, 2010)

Yes they are voracious eaters, I cant even get too close to them most of the time without them going crazy for food, Its hard not to overfeed. Im giving them 25 cc now per meal and I try only feed them when there crops are almost empty


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad to hear...


Post some fresh poop images later.


Are you able to guide them to drink Tepid Water between meals?


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