# Stop petsmart from selling live birds!



## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

This is kind of pigeon related, well, maybe more DOVE related as i've never seen a pigeon for sale there, but, bird related nonetheless.
PETA is having a demenstration in Boston tomorrow, from 8:45 to 10 am, 200 boylston street in front of 4 seasons. 
They are demonstrating there because PEtsmart is having a shareholders meeting, sorry about the late notice, but due to the nature of never finding out about these things until the last minute, it's short notice.
PETA is asking them to stop the sale of live birds and animals, all stemming from an undercover operation of petsmart and their birds and animal. Petsmart continues to promise that all birds and animal are cared for by vets, but the undercover operation proved otherwise.
The petsmart by my house, every time i went the last 6 months, they were not selling the birds because they were in quarantine. but all the birds were in cages where they are sold, not seperated, and everytime i told them, " that bird is shaking, that bird looks dead, that bird needs to be seperated," they promised me they would have a vet come. Never happened. Every time there were less and less birds. The diamond doves alone ALL died. The other birds, finches, parrots, some died also. They wouldnt TELL me that, but by the time they were being sold there were so low in numbers, and another cat shelter that adopts animals out of there on saturdays told me every saturday during this pathetic "quarantine," birds were being taken out dead. Never did they seperate them, and the cages of different TYPES of birds were not seperated, stuck side by side, disease spreading very easily between them. they also had the wrong type of cage for the finches, the bars were too wide and the birds were escaping into this little holding room behind the cages. 
This is the same petsmart that got a pigeon in there before, and wouldnt let me try and catch it. They tried LASER POINTERS! Dummies. They ended up calling someone to get it, who, i dont know, i got kicked out. I would break open the seed bags and hide seed around the store for him to eat, so they caught me and kicked me out that day even though i offered to pay for the seed. pet stores are supposed to CARE about pets, and they do not, they are all about profit. It is very sad. And think of all the pigeons that need homes, and here they are trapping wild birds and bringing them out of their homes to sell for a buck, only to have half or more die along the way.
Here's the link to sign the petition. PLEASE sign it, i KNOW many of you feel the same way i do as this, so here's your chance to stand by your opinions and so called, "put your money where your mouth is"
THANKS EVERYONE!
I'm sorry there is a few sad pictures on this page, but ignoring the problem will only make it worse.
Please follow the links anyways, these animals at least deserve our acknowledgment of the suffering they went through. 

http://www.petsmartcruelty.com/video.asp
http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/petsmart_end_animal_sales


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I totally agree, Moxie....at the Petsmarts near us, they seem to always have the birds "not for sale". They had a dove for months and months, but he was never for sale as he was ill. I signed.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Thanks MaryJane, You are a sweetheart! 
i"ll let you all know how the demonstration goes tomorrow.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pet stores don't necessarily care about pets...they care about making money. It's very hard for me to even go into one because I feel they exploit animals.
When Caleb was younger, he really wanted Diamond Doves and so I did buy him a pair, begrudgingly, at Pet Smart. They were both very ill and after many trips to the vet to figure out the problem, they died and this was within 20 days of bringing them home. It was so sad. I don't recall the name but Deb said she believed they had a virus most common to finches. These birds had been housed with finches.
Good luck tomorrow. I don't think birds should be sold as pets or other small animals for that mater. Not at least until whomever wanted them had gone through some sort of animal care class. Am I dreaming or what?!


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Moxie,

I'll have to watch the videos on a day that I feel a little tuffer, but I was feeling tuff enough to sign that message.

Thank you for letting us know, I will email it out now to the people on my list.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, i went to the demonstration today, and it was alot of fun actually! I met some VERY nice people, they travelled all the way from virginia to put this together, and i met a few very active animal rights folks that live in Boston!
I guess they said the media might show up, and i was so scared because i called in late to work, so was all prepared to HIDE behind the sign if that happened, but they didnt show...
They had a girl in a parrot costume, and she went into a coffin to symbolize the dead birds. The people were mostly very receptive to our little demonstration, and alot of people vowed to stop shopping at Petsmart. I know after today i will not shop there either!
Can everyone try and sign the petition i posted in the link above? They want birds to stop being sold and adequate care for all the animals still being sold at petsmart, not much to ask CONSIDERING most petsmarts have the Banfield Vets RIGHT in the store. So sad to think these animals are mere FEET from help, yet the profits are put first, the animals LAST.
I know the last few months, at the Petsmart here, the quarantined birds dropped drastically in numbers every time i went, all dead or dying. 
Thanks for supporting this petition you guys, and supporting animal welfare and rights everywhere! 
Now go sign the thing!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad the demonstration was successful. I too wish all pet stores stop selling animals. 
I must admit I do buy from PetsMart, where else can I buy food and supplies for my pets. Pet Supermarket doesn't sell the dove food or the type of cages I need. 

Reti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Feather said:


> Moxie,
> 
> I'll have to watch the videos on a day that I feel a little tuffer, but I was feeling tuff enough to sign that message.
> 
> Thank you for letting us know, I will email it out now to the people on my list.


I don't know if you'll ever feel tough enough to watch these videos. I'm just sick watching them. I've shopped for the last time at one of these places. So sad..............


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Moxie, sorry to read this. We are often in Petsmart buying supplies and I have to say this particular store's birds look well. If we see one that looks puffed out, drawn up or just have "that look", we tell them. They are in clean cages and always have fresh water and food. We have noticed some safety issues, like hanging electric lines and have had them take care of that.

The Petsmart we go to has a veterinarian on the premises and she may play a big part in these birds looking well. I like to think so. Many of the Petsmarts in our area have vet clinics in the store.

Frankly, I wish all pet stores would stop selling birds or any other animal or fish because I always feel they come out of "mills" and are not healthy. I always feel so sorry about the fish because of the way they are kept at any store.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I have been to my local Petsmart and the birds and other small animals all seem to be well cared for and in clean cages. I looked at the vidio's and most looked like they were staged just to get people riled up so that they would sign the petition.I know that many here will disagree with me but I feel that Peta wants to take our birds and animals away from us and its just a matter of time before they get to us the pet owner.I WILL NOT ARGUE THIS WITH ANYONE so don't try to provoke me as I will not respond.* GEORGE


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I agree with you George soon they will be after the pigeon sport because some racers practice culling.

If you guys think those videos are bad I hope you never find out what goes on overseas.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Moxie, sorry to read this. We are often in Petsmart buying supplies and I have to say this particular store's birds look well. If we see one that looks puffed out, drawn up or just have "that look", we tell them. They are in clean cages and always have fresh water and food. We have noticed some safety issues, like hanging electric lines and have had them take care of that.
> 
> The Petsmart we go to has a veterinarian on the premises and she may play a big part in these birds looking well. I like to think so. Many of the Petsmarts in our area have vet clinics in the store.
> 
> Frankly, I wish all pet stores would stop selling birds or any other animal or fish because I always feel they come out of "mills" and are not healthy. I always feel so sorry about the fish because of the way they are kept at any store.


Maggie, your store may be doing a great job. Many times it's what goes on in the area the customer can't go to that is so horrifying. I was privy to that once. I won't go into details because I don't want to make this thread go SOUTH, but it was not good. I did convince the person that allowed me behind the employees only door to keep a journal and she did. At the time, I could find no agency that would intervene and help. Does my experience mean that all Petsmart stores are bad...probably not. Certainly and at the least, pet shops in general could do a much better job educating the customer about the care of the animal/bird the customer is buying. 
That would cut down on neglect and abuse and animal that if lucky ends up in a shelter and is placed in an appropriate home.
I can't begin to tell you all the horrible situation I see some pets are in when I'm showing houses....caged small animals and birds in filthy cages with no food or water. This is by far the norm rather than the exception. I always do what I can to help educate and often offer to buy the pet.
Abandoned animals in vacant houses is another thing I see frequently. Oh my, I could go on and on and on....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I worked at a pet store in high school, I don't know if any of you remember dr.pet...well there was no dr. there. It was horrible...I had to pick up puppys at another location...well I called the humane soc. had to have a specific animal to get them to come out,so I had seen an afghan hound pup sitting in it's own poop, he was sick and weak....the next morning I heard through the grapevine that they came and that it helped some of the sick pups...I have not thought about petsmart but in my gut I never really liked it. I would rather buy from a responsible careing breeder....Peta can be over the top in some cases and that rubs me the wrong way, but they mean well and I know a petstore is no place for live animals..period


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Charis, I have a friend who works at this particular store while she is going to college. She is a huge animal lover with her family already adopting five soon to be put to sleep dogs. She has told me that the birds are well cared for. 

Granted, this store may not be the norm but I can only judge them by what I see.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Charis, I have a friend who works at this particular store while she is going to college. She is a huge animal lover with her family already adopting five soon to be put to sleep dogs. She has told me that the birds are well cared for.
> 
> Granted, this store may not be the norm but I can only judge them by what I see.


Truly...I am thrilled your store is a good one. Even good stores need to address the issue of animal care after the pet goes home. It sounds like you friend has the conscience to do just that because rescuers can never keep their mouth shut! I know this personally to be true!


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## jdjd (Jun 10, 2007)

Wow, thats horrible! I agree that Petsmart should not only stop selling birds, but rats, mice, rabbits, and all the other critters in there. Their Bearded Dragon was "healthy" said the worker there. It was half dead laying by its bowl. Later I asked if someone could look at it. After several attempts, they took it out of its cage. Frozen solid....any one guess its dead? That just shows how much they know about taking care of the more exotic pets... What does the shaking mean? Becuase I think my smallest pigeon was also shaking the other day... after a bath, so I thought he was just a little cold?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

A couple of years ago, a girl that lived close to me, Rebekah, adopted Dory. Some of you may remember. Anyway..........she was into hamsters, gerbils, and the like. She raised them, showed them at one time and judged them. She rode down to NC with me one day and we went to Petsmart. Now, I haven't been in a LOT of these stores, but I've been in a few. The cages always looked clean to me. The animals looked healthy as far as I knew and could tell. When we went in the Petsmart in Winston-Salem, it looked no different to me. However, Rebekah goes into that little middle section between the hamster cages with one of the employees, and spots hamster after hamster with "wet tail".......I'd never even heard of wet tail. She made the employee take the hamsters out and he took them in the back. After that, I don't know what happened to them.
My point is, the pet stores are SUPPOSED to look clean.........the animals are SUPPOSED to look happy and healthy..........that's how they sell them in the first place. They aren't overcrowed to where they are stepping on each other. It's not what we see...............that's made to be appealing to the average patron.........it's what's going on behind the scenes that we DON'T see......what these "cute", "happy" little animals went through BEFORE they were put on display to attract that little 5 year old girls attention. 
It just makes me sick..........


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## jojo67 (Jul 14, 2007)

Just signed, feel so sickened when i see animals treated this way, any place like petsmart should by law have independant vets to inspect places like this,


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Lovebirds, couldnt of said it better! That is what petstores do, and the girl that worked at one by my house, petsmart, said that they have a powdered antibiotics, and anytime one is sick they give them that, never knowing what is fully wrong, just HOPING the powdered antibiotics will work. This antibiotic is given to the fish, to the mice, the birds, everything. No different antibiotics for different species even.
Pet stores are different store to store, but they are a chain, and i dont support these BREEDING facilities these animals are coming from. Maybe those videos are to rile people up, but it IS a REALITY at those places, and much worse then that.
RESPONSIBLE pet stores KNOW their breeders, visit them often, and do not bye from breeding facilities that are ONLY about money. 
I wont argue that PETA can get a bit crazy and over the top as Sprit wings said, but these days you have to choose a president based on "the lesser evil," and i would support PETA before PETSMART anyday. I agree with PETA on many things, other things i do not. And, i HIGHLY doubt the day PETA saves farm animals and animals in labs is near, when that day comes i might worry about them coming after my house pets.
I dont agree with culling of animals though. Sorry, JMO.
Why do we import these wild birds when there are SO MANY wonderful pigeons RIGHT out our doors in need of homes? Shelters are FULL of abandoned birds. I myself didnt realize how bad SOME pet stores could be until recently, and i have seen it for myself, and heard it from trusted friends, not just PETA websites.
I appreciate everyone who has signed, and if you dont, thats fine too, thats our right. 

Petsmart is VERY uneducated about proper handling of the animals it sells. My close friend breeds betta fish and sells them, she only sells to pre-screened people, never to petstores, and she is hoping to open her own petstore one day soon and staff only people educated about animals.
I went to petsmart with her a few weeks ago, and she pointed out the sick betta fish, and this was a store i thought was a better one. She said people often dont like betta because they label them "lazy fish," yet people keep them in TINY bowls basically, and all the aquarioums being sold and labelled as BETTA tanks were TINY, they have the mistaken belief that betta need little water, little space, because they often live in small puddles in the wild. But in the wild they TRAVEL puddle to puddle, she pointed out the sick ones, and said she used to ask to be given the sick ones, or sometimes buy them, but she refuses to buy them now because that money will be used to buy more, and she would be supporting the suffering of more animals.
I now hate that place, especially after so much volunteer work at animal shelters, often seeing these animals being put to sleep, the same animals for sale at these stores. Its a sick cycle, PETSMART doesnt educate people on the proper care of the animals they sell, the people buying them later realize how much money, time and care they take, they neglect or abandon them, the shelters get them. At the exact time a bird or hamster is being put to sleep at the shelter, one is being sold for profit at a petsmart or other petstore down the street. One just died, while another is being sold. That money is used to "breed" more "product," Why are we breeding so many animals when our shelters are FULL of animals in need of homes?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I have to agree with Charis. Most pet shops do not do a good job of caring for the animals they sell. And they certainly should teach people about the care of the animal, after they take it home. But they don't.
My husband and I stopped into a pet shop a couple of towns from here, and the little puppies in this big pen were filthy, and had no water what so ever. It was summer time, and very hot in the store. I told them they pups needed water. They kind of blew me off, until I said that they could be reported. They moved then, but the next time we stopped by, just to check on them, the same thing. I reported them. As for the Petsmart thing, I posted it on my web page on spaces.live.com. Most animals sold in petshops come from mills, or other bad beginnings. If people would just not buy from them, these horrible mills would go out of business. So sad.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

JAY3, where in massachusetts are you? I am here too! 
Where was this petstore that actually sells puppies? Many stores dont sell puppies anymore, so just curious...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

xxmoxiexx said:


> JAY3, where in massachusetts are you? I am here too!
> Where was this petstore that actually sells puppies? Many stores dont sell puppies anymore, so just curious...


I live in Blackstone. Do you know where that is? About 45 minutes outside of Worcester. Where are you? Anyway, the petshop I spoke of is in Franklin. On route 140 just as you go into Franklin. I don't remember the name of it, but I could find out. I don't go there, as I can't stand to see animals mistreated this way. There is another place in Woonsocket R.I. not far from here that sells animals. They say that they don't get them from mills, as I have asked. I'm not sure though.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

I signed the petition but I don't think I can stop shopping there. I'm in there like once a week between my birds and my dog.
I have noticed that their birds have not been for sale forever and a day now. I do check out the birds and the hamsters and the living quarters seem to look clean and the animals look well. I will look more thoroughly and with the petition that will keep Petsmart on their toes.
Not able to watch the video, the picture was enough for me. I use to have hamsters and mice when I was a kid.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yes it is all about money!.....this information needs to be in the media..it will not stop, unless people stop buying these critters from pet stores. they (customer) are ignorant to the breeding warehouses and such....it has to be stopped someway....they may look fine in the store but customers don't know about the way they are husseld like inventory...has'nt changed in the time when I worked at such a place...


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Jay3, I live in Chelsea, RIGHT outside of boston. Anyways, Chelsea is NOTORIOUS as being a bad neighborhood, but it is becoming gentrified now, and an affordable place to live close to Boston and the schools for students like me! Hence, students/artists first, gentrification second!
No, i have no idea where you live, but am not originally from Boston, so dont know the state well.
Oh, if you could find out the name of either stores, or even BOTH, i would be most thankful. A close friends roommate volunteers for a rescue place for dogs and puppies, and they do a lot of activism. Usually they go into a petstore with a health inspector and DEMAND that they are kept in better conditions. I mean, it's sad they cant do as much as STOPPING the puppy mills, but they do what they can.
She always asks me to find out about any stores selling puppyies, and one store stopped selling puppies up here because of the work they did, because time and time again they went in and the puppies were kept in horrid conditions. Granted, the pen in the front that they were kept in looked nice, but the pen in the back of the store was horrible! Poop in the water/food dishes, flies everywhere. They werent being walked, then the ones not sold were given to kill shelters, and by then they were all way too unsocialized to be adopted, so off to the euthanasia room they went...
So sad.....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, that's horrible! Chelsea huh? I grew up in Newton. Sure you must know where that is. Not far from Boston. I'll try to get the name for you. Thanks for getting back to me. If I should come across any more places who keep their animals that way, I'll know who to go to. Thanks. Where do you hail from originally?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Oh, that's horrible! Chelsea huh? I grew up in Newton. Sure you must know where that is. Not far from Boston. I'll try to get the name for you. Thanks for getting back to me. If I should come across any more places who keep their animals that way, I'll know who to go to. Thanks. Where do you hail from originally?


Let me answer for her. She's from Washington State. Just a few miles up the Columbia river from Portland.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> Let me answer for her. She's from Washington State. Just a few miles up the Columbia river from Portland.


Hi Charis. Thanks for the answer.


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## jeepsterwannabe (Jun 22, 2008)

xxmoxiexx said:


> This is the same petsmart that got a pigeon in there before, and wouldnt let me try and catch it. They tried LASER POINTERS! Dummies. They ended up calling someone to get it, who, i dont know, i got kicked out. *I would break open the seed bags and hide seed around the store *for him to eat, so they caught me and kicked me out that day even though i offered to pay for the seed. pet stores are supposed to CARE about pets, and they do not, they are all about profit.



That sounds criminal.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

> That sounds criminal.


Wow, first post. Thanks for the input.

It is kind of a crazy thing to do but I've probably done crazier.

What's criminal is Petsmart neglecting the sick pets they sale.


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## jeepsterwannabe (Jun 22, 2008)

neglect/abuse of animals is criminal. destroying/vandalizing merchandise is criminal. I am not a fan of criminal acts, but I am in favor of civil disobedience.
Petsmart did not commit a crime when a feral/wild pigeon flew into their building. It was also not a crime to disallow a customer to try catching it. but the customer did destroy merchandise for no good reason.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

xxmoxiexx said:


> This is kind of pigeon related, well, maybe more DOVE related as i've never seen a pigeon for sale there, but, bird related nonetheless.
> PETA is having a demenstration in Boston tomorrow, from 8:45 to 10 am, 200 boylston street in front of 4 seasons.
> They are demonstrating there because PEtsmart is having a shareholders meeting, sorry about the late notice, but due to the nature of never finding out about these things until the last minute, it's short notice.
> PETA is asking them to stop the sale of live birds and animals, all stemming from an undercover operation of petsmart and their birds and animal. Petsmart continues to promise that all birds and animal are cared for by vets, but the undercover operation proved otherwise.
> ...


 I don't know what the right answer is, and I don't know where such a "Movement" ends. Why not just outlaw the owning and keeping of all birds and small pets ? Then you have eliminated the possibility of any animal being 
mistreated. Attacking any one particular chain of stores, does not keep these birds and animals from being sold. And then, I am sure that some people won't be satisfied untill every chicken or turkey is liberated, so outlaw the keeping of any bird. Which means of course that all of our food production will take place over seas. So, you will have to then outlaw the importation of any birds as food. So, where exactly does this end ?

Because we are then just a step away from outlawinng any animal use, for anything. And then we will have to address the issue of does a tree feel pain when you cut it down....or does an ear of corn feel pain when you pull it from it's mother stalk ? 

In the mean time, we have young humans which are being abused in various ways, and who go hungrey at night. So, where should our energy and focus be ?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know what the right answer is, and I don't know where such a "Movement" ends. Why not just outlaw the owning and keeping of all birds and small pets ? Then you have eliminated the possibility of any animal being
> mistreated. Attacking any one particular chain of stores, does not keep these birds and animals from being sold. And then, I am sure that some people won't be satisfied untill every chicken or turkey is liberated, so outlaw the keeping of any bird. Which means of course that all of our food production will take place over seas. So, you will have to then outlaw the importation of any birds as food. So, where exactly does this end ?
> 
> Because we are then just a step away from outlawinng any animal use, for anything. And then we will have to address the issue of does a tree feel pain when you cut it down....or does an ear of corn feel pain when you pull it from it's mother stalk ?
> ...


Warren, each of us has been gifted with some passion, a cause to advocate for, that gives our life meaning. For some it may be this cause for others advocating for abused children you spoke of. The passions are as diverse as we are. Personally, my passion extends to all living beings in pain and I will always extend myself to help in any way I can. 
I feel very honoring toward moxie fro her passion in this cause and bringing it us us. I feel honor toward you for considering young abused humans. We all need to honor or passion and take action for the causes that touch our heart.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> Warren, each of us has been gifted with some passion, a cause to advocate for, that gives our life meaning. For some it may be this cause for others advocating for abused children you spoke of. The passions are as diverse as we are. Personally, my passion extends to all living beings in pain and I will always extend myself to help in any way I can.
> I feel very honoring toward moxie fro her passion in this cause and bringing it us us. I feel honor toward you for considering young abused humans. We all need to honor or passion and take action for the causes that touch our heart.


Well....the possible difference is, it's not that far of a reach to suggest that a bandwagon to stop XYZ from selling birds....may some day prevent SFL or some other lawful owner from selling birds...........or some form of regulation. In our state, such things are already highly regulated and patrolled by representatives of the SPCA. As with many well intentioned ideas, there is often a moral hazard, in that unintended things happen which were not anticipated. 

I don't begrudge someone from making their life feel "fulfilled", or other wise give meaning and purpose to their life, as long as it does not interfere with what I consider my rights, or the rights of others. All I am saying, is that I personally feel uncomfortable with a "movement" to stop a pet store from selling pets, based on video of questionable origin. Especially since a single store chain has been singled out, and does not remind me of my local Pet Smart in the least. My local store seems to take great care and concern for the health and care of their pets. I am sure, many pigeon fanciers do not take as good of care of their pigeons, as my local store takes care of their birds.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....the possible difference is, it's not that far of a reach to suggest that a bandwagon to stop XYZ from selling birds....may some day prevent SFL or some other lawful owner from selling birds...........or some form of regulation. In our state, such things are already highly regulated and patrolled by representatives of the SPCA. As with many well intentioned ideas, there is often a moral hazard, in that unintended things happen which were not anticipated.
> 
> I don't begrudge someone from making their life feel "fulfilled", or other wise give meaning and purpose to their life, as long as it does not interfere with what I consider my rights, or the rights of others. All I am saying, is that I personally feel uncomfortable with a "movement" to stop a pet store from selling pets, based on video of questionable origin. Especially since a single store chain has been singled out, and does not remind me of my local Pet Smart in the least. My local store seems to take great care and concern for the health and care of their pets. I am sure, many pigeon fanciers do not take as good of care of their pigeons, as my local store takes care of their birds.


Warren, the real issue here is the way the store keeps the birds they sell. Many are sick when sold although I must say it's not just sick birds they sell but other animals too. Also, they don't educate the customer regarding proper bird care. All this is preventable. They take advantage of the animal they are selling and the customer. This really isn't about banning pet shops from selling birds or any other animals...it's about what I just said. 
Taking advantage to make money is wrong.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> ....Taking advantage to make money is wrong.


 I don't know that any of the "evidence" provided is true or not. I am sure the local manager of PetSmart would disagree with you. And somehow, I'm not convinced if this particlar business would make some possible policy changes, that it would satisfy those who made the video. The idea that a store owner would make a "profit" from sales of animals, seems to bother some people. 

I'm afraid that your last comment in quotes above, is an indictment for the whole US economy. Everyone from my doctor, lawyer, banker, baker, bucher, plumber, farmer etc. are all out to take advantage of me in my time of want or need.

I am a tree care contractor...my job is wait till a tree falls on a home, and then I "Take Advantage" of the situation for money !  When the grand baby cries for milk, the mean ole farmer takes advantage of the situation and milks a cow...and for money no less !!!

Just having a little fun with you. May stop by PetSmart today, and see how the animals are doing. Then I'm going to go back to the racing Pigeon section, where I manage to get in less "trouble".


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know that any of the "evidence" provided is true or not. I am sure the local manager of PetSmart would disagree with you. And somehow, I'm not convinced if this particlar business would make some possible policy changes, that it would satisfy those who made the video. The idea that a store owner would make a "profit" from sales of animals, seems to bother some people.
> 
> I'm afraid that your last comment in quotes above, is an indictment for the whole US economy. Everyone from my doctor, lawyer, banker, baker, bucher, plumber, farmer etc. are all out to take advantage of me in my time of want or need.
> 
> ...


I was personally taken advantage of when I bought Diamond Doves for my son. UN be known to me, they were sick when I bought them. Caleb had been wanting these little doves for the longest time and while I begrudgingly bought them, I knew they would be well taken care of with me. 
I bought the birds, a flight cage for them and all accessories. I was told they were weaned which they were not. I could take care of that but the average consumer wouldn't have a clue. No mater what, the birds didn't thrive. They were puffed and lethargic which was heart breaking for little Caleb, with a tender heart, and myself. I took them to the vet but they didn't survive. They were both dead within a month of purchase. The vet figured they had a virus common to Finches, which they had been housed with. Birds, cage and vet...nearly $1000. The worst part was loosing them. Was I taken advantage of...I think so and on many levels. My story is not uncommon. 
I have other first hand stories that are too graphic to share.
Now Warren...don't make me come out there and have a talk with you. I would be taken advantage of regarding the cost of airfare.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know that any of the "evidence" provided is true or not. I am sure the local manager of PetSmart would disagree with you. And somehow, I'm not convinced if this particlar business would make some possible policy changes, that it would satisfy those who made the video. The idea that a store owner would make a "profit" from sales of animals, seems to bother some people.
> 
> I'm afraid that your last comment in quotes above, is an indictment for the whole US economy. Everyone from my doctor, lawyer, banker, baker, bucher, plumber, farmer etc. are all out to take advantage of me in my time of want or need.
> 
> ...


they have a racing pigeon section?????...am I missing something?....anyway, animals should not be sold like inventory housed in mills, warehouses, ect, with the only people they can hire to clean up after them mostly don't care. I think making a profit is the American way, but just because that has been the case, with animals included ,for so long does'nt make it moral. maybe it is a character issue, but to me it is common sense and just fact...non emotional just is'nt right...IMHO


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know what the right answer is, and I don't know where such a "Movement" ends. Why not just outlaw the owning and keeping of all birds and small pets ? Then you have eliminated the possibility of any animal being
> mistreated. Attacking any one particular chain of stores, does not keep these birds and animals from being sold. And then, I am sure that some people won't be satisfied untill every chicken or turkey is liberated, so outlaw the keeping of any bird. Which means of course that all of our food production will take place over seas. So, you will have to then outlaw the importation of any birds as food. So, where exactly does this end ?
> 
> Because we are then just a step away from outlawinng any animal use, for anything. And then we will have to address the issue of does a tree feel pain when you cut it down....or does an ear of corn feel pain when you pull it from it's mother stalk ?
> ...



I agree that it is horrible that children are being abused, and there are people to help stop that. But that doesn't mean that animals should not also be protected. What the hell kind of world would we live in, if any one could just abuse any animal any way they want to. And it wasn't just Petsmart, if you took the time to watch the videos about their suppliers, you might better understand what people are objecting to. Animals are NOT things. They are living, feeling creatures. They cannot speak out for themselves, or protect themselves. They DO deserve to be protected. They do NOT deserve to be abused and tortured. Anyone who thinks that this kind of treatment of animals is okay, or in any way justified, than that person is an unfeeling, heartless, empty non human. Many people who abuse animals are the same people who will abuse children or other human beings. And the inhuman treatment at puppy mills and mills for other animals has got to stop. Everyone is, of course, entitled to their own opinion, but those who feel nothing for these animals are missing a big part of their soul. It is called heart, compassion, caring. And it is ridiculous to compare the mistreatment of animals to an ear of corn. There..................I'm done!.................I think.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....the possible difference is, it's not that far of a reach to suggest that a bandwagon to stop XYZ from selling birds....may some day prevent SFL or some other lawful owner from selling birds...........or some form of regulation. In our state, such things are already highly regulated and patrolled by representatives of the SPCA. As with many well intentioned ideas, there is often a moral hazard, in that unintended things happen which were not anticipated.
> 
> I don't begrudge someone from making their life feel "fulfilled", or other wise give meaning and purpose to their life, as long as it does not interfere with what I consider my rights, or the rights of others. All I am saying, is that I personally feel uncomfortable with a "movement" to stop a pet store from selling pets, based on video of questionable origin. Especially since a single store chain has been singled out, and does not remind me of my local Pet Smart in the least. My local store seems to take great care and concern for the health and care of their pets. I am sure, many pigeon fanciers do not take as good of care of their pigeons, as my local store takes care of their birds.


I think actually, that it is even more the suppliers of these animals that horribly abuse them. And a reputable pet store would not buy from these kinds of places. I know, for a fact, that there are pet shops who sell animals, who don't buy from these mills. They buy from local breeders of animals. Many buy from people they know, rather than huge warehouses for animals. It is these warehouses that treat animals like things without feelings. They do not care for the animals. Just the profit. And nobody is saying that pet shops shouldn't want to make a profit. We are just saying that they should also care about the welfare of the animals they sell.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> I was personally taken advantage of when I bought Diamond Doves for my son. UN be known to me, they were sick when I bought them. Caleb had been wanting these little doves for the longest time and while I begrudgingly bought them, I knew they would be well taken care of with me.
> I bought the birds, a flight cage for them and all accessories. I was told they were weaned which they were not. I could take care of that but the average consumer wouldn't have a clue. No mater what, the birds didn't thrive. They were puffed and lethargic which was heart breaking for little Caleb, with a tender heart, and myself. I took them to the vet but they didn't survive. They were both dead within a month of purchase. The vet figured they had a virus common to Finches, which they had been housed with. Birds, cage and vet...nearly $1000. The worst part was loosing them. Was I taken advantage of...I think so and on many levels. My story is not uncommon.
> I have other first hand stories that are too graphic to share.
> Now Warren...don't make me come out there and have a talk with you. I would be taken advantage of regarding the cost of airfare.


Charis,

Every time I try to get out, they drag me back in ! If you are a movie buff, you will know what I mean........anyway I was out there this afternoon, trying not to think of my idea to post on this particular thread, when I needed some gas and pulled in a local Rutters store, and BOY did I get taken advantage of !!  I pumped my gas and got it for only $3.95 a gallon (thank you environmentalists) and then purchased a 20 oz. container of Gatoraid....and was I ever ripped off !! Worked out to about $8 a gallon !!! Now where are these evil Gatoraid company's making obscene profits and taking advantage of me !!! There ought to be an "excess profits", tax and get rid of those Gatoraid speculators !!

You were a victim of circumstances and poor management, that must not have been a pleasant experience. Did you approach management with your problem ? Were they given an opportunity to correct the situation ? If so, were you refunded your purchase price ? Did they offer to replace the birds ?

If the facts are as you state, then it is apparent that they are unqualified to manage the selling of birds. Their business model is broken, and I suspect they would soon leave the business anyway. The answer may be for buyers to do a little research on the seller of stock they wish to purchase. I don't know what the odds are, for the type of bird you purchased, for having a virus, and neither you or the sellers knew the bird was sick. I suspect only a vet doing blood tests could confirm this at the time of sale. 

If I were to become a commercial seller of birds such as PetSmart, I would conduct business in a much different fashion. PetSmart apparently went by the "cheap" method....selling cheap birds, to people looking for cheap prices, and that is the value they received. My operation would have much higher standards and thus much higher prices. The market will change for PetSmart, if for no other reason, then unhappy customers tell more people about their unhappy experience. Chain stores come and go, pet shops come and go. Positive information to the public, as to how to purchase quality healthy stock, may in the long run, reach more people in a positive way. 

In which case, instead of attempting to drive a portion of a company's business into the ground, have you considered helping them improve the quality of these animals lives while in their care ? If I'm not mistaken, the video clip was of a supplier and not PetSmart itself ? 

Let's assume that you are successful in driving PetSmart out of the pet part of the business, and they simply become a pet grocery store. Assuming the demand remains constant, then people will go to another retail outlet to purchase their goods. They may be smaller, and much less visible. Now, instead of reviewing the conditions of a single PetSmart to see how the animals are faring, now they will be sold at maybe 120,000 other smaller locations. Maybe PetSmart was heaven compared to the hell's they may now be facing. Maybe bred in basements under horrible conditions, by do-it-at-home suppliers and the like.

I wish you well in your endeaver. My perspective is somewhat different, as I came pretty close from a "Farming" background, and I am sure that farm animals will someday be on your list. Because with PetSmart you are talking a tiny...tiny.. fraction of the birds which are produced in the USA for various purposes. For some reason your current focus is on this tiny fraction of the US bird population. I suspect at some point, your attention will be directed to the entire poultry industry...and maybe somewhere down the line, back yard lofts such as mine.


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## David Ey (Dec 31, 2007)

Now, that makes a lot of sense.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Charis,
> 
> Every time I try to get out, they drag me back in ! If you are a movie buff, you will know what I mean........anyway I was out there this afternoon, trying not to think of my idea to post on this particular thread, when I needed some gas and pulled in a local Rutters store, and BOY did I get taken advantage of !!  I pumped my gas and got it for only $3.95 a gallon (thank you environmentalists) and then purchased a 20 oz. container of Gatoraid....and was I ever ripped off !! Worked out to about $8 a gallon !!! Now where are these evil Gatoraid company's making obscene profits and taking advantage of me !!! There ought to be an "excess profits", tax and get rid of those Gatoraid speculators !!
> 
> ...


Warren...do you know me to be one that is even capable of remaining silent if I feel an injustice has been made?
I did approach management and they were unwilling to do anything to remedy the situation. They refused to refund the cost of the birds or pay the vet bill. I didn't ask them for more birds as I figured we had been through enough heartache already. I did several months later buy a feeder mouse from them to keep another company. It was so badly infested with mites, it chewed it's own foot off. I couldn't figure out why it had done that and at first I thought the other mouse had been aggressive toward it. I took both mice to the vet and the one I bought had mites. They were very small and had burrowed into the skin, driving the poor mice crazy. Of course I took the vet bill back to Petsmart and told them. All I wanted was to have them treat the remaining mice. I found it deeply troubling that they should have to suffer.
You are a kind man and I believe most people that call this forum home are kind folks as well. This is about treating animals kindly because they are living beings deserving of our kindness and respect. It would take such little effort to do this and it makes no sense to me that the effort isn't taken.
As for animal farming, this thread isn't about that. It isn't about taking backyard lofts away either.This isn't about me stopping Petsmart from selling animals but if I were powerful enough alone to pull that one of...you know I would. Really, this is about ethics and doing the honorable thing. 
I think it's a good thing we've had a sane discussion and if you ever want to have an off forum discussion about animal farming...I'M YOUR GIRL!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Charis said:


> ....You are a kind man and I believe most people that call this forum home are kind folks as well. This is about treating animals kindly because they are living beings deserving of our kindness and respect. It would take such little effort to do this and it makes no sense to me that the effort isn't taken.
> As for animal farming, this thread isn't about that. It isn't about taking backyard lofts away either.This isn't about me stopping Petsmart from selling animals but if I were powerful enough alone to pull that one of...you know I would. Really, this is about ethics and doing the honorable thing.
> I think it's a good thing we've had a sane discussion and if you ever want to have an off forum discussion about animal farming...I'M YOUR GIRL!



Well, truth be told, just to show you how far behind the curve I am, I didn't realize untill today that you are of the female gender. So, perhaps that means I am just a little on the slow side. 

You keep doing the honorable thing, I just wanted readers to see another perspective. Who among us, can say we don't want animals given respect and treated well ? I never understood completely the idea of keeping wild birds inside your home in cages in the first place. And I am really surprized that after being ripped off by your purchase of sick birds which died, that you turned around and purchased additional animals from this place you now want closed. In a way, you and a few more million people like you, are who has created a market for these poor animals. Now that you have seen the light so to speak, you are upset, and I understand that now. 

Hopefully, you will take some of this energy, and direct it towards public education. Pet stores and shops, have never been the place to purchase a pet. That was as true in the 1950's as it is today. Private, professional breeders, have always provided the fancy, with quality healthy stock. These "produce for the mass market at low cost" operations, have always been a nightmare for the birds and animals.

As far as animal farming, I wish to remain in the dark. I know in the back of my mind where a NY Strip steak comes from, and how it goes from hoof to my table, but I don't want to give that too much thought. That is the responsibility and burden we all must bear, for being at the top of the food chain, instead of being "what's for dinner" ourselves.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well, truth be told, just to show you how far behind the curve I am, I didn't realize untill today that you are of the female gender. So, perhaps that means I am just a little on the slow side.
> 
> You keep doing the honorable thing, I just wanted readers to see another perspective. Who among us, can say we don't want animals given respect and treated well ? I never understood completely the idea of keeping wild birds inside your home in cages in the first place. And I am really surprized that after being ripped off by your purchase of sick birds which died, that you turned around and purchased additional animals from this place you now want closed. In a way, you and a few more million people like you, are who has created a market for these poor animals. Now that you have seen the light so to speak, you are upset, and I understand that now.
> 
> ...


Warren, I'm not in the habbit of purchasing animals at all. Who would have thought a 49 cent feeder mouse would be sick too.It was to be a companion for a rescue mouse.
Believe me...I spend a good deal of time each day educating and advocating for beings that can't do so for themselves. I could give you a list. This is not about CLOSING the store but getting them to STOP SELLING BIRDS.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I buy different bags of Seeds at my local 'Petsmart' fairly often...and when there, I spend a little time visiting with the different Birds they have.



Usually, at least some of the Birds look under-the-weather.


And several times now thay have had a sign saying no Birds will be sold for a few weeks because they are all on a medicine for the time being.



Well, of course, this is a sad thing all the way around.


They had a young Parrot there for months, and his Cage Bars were 'wide'. 

So after a few visits, when I'd show up, he'd come over and I'd preen his Head, tickle his Feet and just visit with him for a while, talking and so on.


I really like him, but it was like a thousand buck price tag.



I figured he'd be happy here, where he could be a 'shoulder Bird', fly around, goof off, make pals with various Pigeons and so on.


I talked with the manager one day, saying "Well, you know, no one seems to want to bite that hefty price tag there, and he's been in the store, what, four months now? "


Anyway, the manager said he'd see about what would work...next time I was in, he says "$450.00 would do..."


I really thought hard on that...not because I want a Parrot, but because I liked THAT Parrot, and he was way depressed and not happy there, and probably, who ever would have bought him, would have had a lousy set up to offer him.


Anyway, while I was brooding over a few days, someone did spring the big dough and he was gone.


I felt really sad...


Somehow, I personally would prefer than there be no commerce in 'pets'.

I would prefer no one iport or breed animals forthe 'pet' market.


Altogether, the wrong people get them 99 times out of 100...and it is hard on the little ones being stuck in a store waiting for someone to buy them...waiting,usually, for what will only be a worse fate, anyway...than being in the store was.


That Parrot haunts me...he was so gentle and lonesome.



Phil
l v


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I can understand how you feel. I once went to look at a shepherd puppy who was very timid, even cowering in the corner. I later found out that all the pups these people bred acted that way when seen around the neighborhood. People there thought that these people were mean to their dogs. I had gotten that impression too, when I was there. That they were breeding this pair of sheperds just for the buck. They seemed kinda rough on the pair when we were there. Anyway, my husband thought I was nuts, but I bought the pup,(about 4 months old) just to get her out of there. She eventually came around with me, but she turned out to be the kind of dog who really needed to be the only dog of the house. I had other dogs at the time. It took me a while to find just the right person, but I did find a really nice guy who had recently lost his german shepherd to old age. I gave her to him. It was hard as I really loved the dog, but I knew he'd be good to her. It worked out great. I was happy that we did it that way. Otherwise, I'd always have wondered if she had gotten a good home. After being mistreated, she was kind of odd. Not everyone would have understood or had the patience with her. I would have felt as you do. So I know how you feel. You are a kind person.


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

WHOA! I kind of felt like this thread was going by the wayside, and the last 3 days i've had the worst ear infection i've had in my entire life, and it's the worst pain i've had in a long time, so havent been online much...
Ok, i'm keeping it short because i have to go back to the doctors. 
I am Like Charis, I usually feel strongly compelled to help innocent creatures, and that includes children. I am just so sick of going to petsmart, seeing totally uneducated people sell these birds to people that dont know better, and trust me, as i was a volunteer at the MSPCA for close to a year, lots and lots of these animals end up in shelters if they even survive.
What i would want, in a perfect world, is a pet shop that put the animals lives before the almighty dollar. They would hire educated people, the animals wouldnt be purchased from mills, and they would only be sold to highly screened customers who still wanted to purchase tha animal after long talks about how much responsibility it will be.
I dont agree with factory farming either, sorry, i just dont. I have eaten meat for a long time, and just cannot, even on a students budget, buy meat that is .99 cents a pound and straight from a factory farm. You say you like to not know where your steak comes from, i do, me and a close friend actually visited a farm here that sells meat and eggs to whole foods, and the animals are free to wander and at least have a shorter, free life.
I have to go to the doctor, and i'm not of sound mind to reply and say what i want to say, so i'll write more later. I'm in too much pain right now...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Finding some balance and perspective.....*



xxmoxiexx said:


> WHOA! I kind of felt like this thread was going by the wayside,.....I am Like Charis, I usually feel strongly compelled to help innocent creatures, and that includes children. .....What i would want, in a perfect world, is a pet shop that put the animals lives before the almighty dollar. They would hire educated people, the animals wouldnt be purchased from mills, and they would only be sold to highly screened customers who still wanted to purchase tha animal after long talks about how much responsibility it will be.
> ......... You say you like to not know where your steak comes from, i do, me and a close friend actually visited a farm here that sells meat and eggs to whole foods, and the animals are free to wander and at least have a shorter, free life......


 Well....let's all take a deep breath for a moment...

First of all, as a Moderator, I may have injected more of myself personally into this thread, then I should have. As you can see....emotions can quickly turn high, when we catch ourselves on a slippery slope. 

As I place my Moderator hat on, I realize that this is the world's largest pigeon blog type of site, and these pages will show up on all kinds of search entries. This thread pretty much trashes a public company, which I not only makes purchases at from time to time, we most likely own a small piece of this business, through various 401(k) and IRA plans....if you own any of these types of investments, a good chance is, you do to. So, right off the bat, I may already be biased. I do know in my research, that a healthy amount of profits from this firm go to saving millions of animals. So, whenever you make a purchase from PetSmart, you actually are helping animals. See their program : http://www.petsmartcharities.org/

There may be many valid issues concerning the care of animals particularly from their suppliers. These are concerns which management, may or may not be fully aware of. I fully understand from the concerns stated, why some people feel that bird sales should be suspended until these issues are addressed. And I don't know how widespread this problem might be. Is it just a few stores or suppliers ? Can the situation be improved with changes in policy ? And what competitors will benifit, if PetSmart, for the sake of the animals, gives up this part of the business ? And are the conditions at the competitors of any importance to this discussion ?

Thousands of families depend on the jobs at stake, in order to put food on their table. If the goal to close bird and/or animals sales at PetSmart is successful, how will that affect not only the people involved, but the birds and animals. As in when they are being sold by someone else, will their lives be greatly improved ? As rational people, those are questions I thought in a gesture of fairness to the people we are talking about here, and will have their lives affected in some way, by this discussion....should have the benifit of the doubt. Which is why, I raised some of these questions...as food for thought.

And in closing, concerning your last statement above. You must be much more hardcore then me, because I would have no interest in visiting the farm and meeting and greeting with the animals that we will later consume. The business is highly regulated, and must pass Goverment Inspection. If my meat is stamped USDA PRIME, I know I got the good stuff. In many parts of the world, that may not be the case.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well, truth be told, just to show you how far behind the curve I am, I didn't realize untill today that you are of the female gender. So, perhaps that means I am just a little on the slow side.
> 
> You keep doing the honorable thing, I just wanted readers to see another perspective. Who among us, can say we don't want animals given respect and treated well ? I never understood completely the idea of keeping wild birds inside your home in cages in the first place. And I am really surprized that after being ripped off by your purchase of sick birds which died, that you turned around and purchased additional animals from this place you now want closed. In a way, you and a few more million people like you, are who has created a market for these poor animals. Now that you have seen the light so to speak, you are upset, and I understand that now.
> 
> ...


that is what I think also, I know first hand.


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## Georgina (Jun 24, 2008)

I've just read this thread from start to finish, you guys sure like to get your opinions accross don't you  Not that that's a bad thing...

We don't have petsmart here in the UK but we do have pets at home which I guess is pretty much the same thing. I live on an island and one opened here last year. I was really excited about it as there's one near my sisters and it always had interesting birds I'd never seen. I went along on the opening day and was surprised to find they weren't stocking birds at all. They said it was because they were hard to look after in a shop environment and often died from shock over the journey or from constantly having customers poking their fingers in the cages. I was disapointed at first and then realised that actually, that was a really smart thing for pets at home to do! Now none of their stores stock birds at all.

I think it's fine for pet shops to sell birds, but it's really important that they only do so if at least a few of their employees know how to look after them and house them properly. I bought a hand reared conure from my local petshop (they look after their animals very well) and the shop owner has sent me a few emails since just to ask how she's doing. They only keep a few birds on the shop floor but they can take orders for anything else. This means when they arrive at the pet shop, they leave with their new owners straight away and don't have to go through the stress of being in the shop for days or even months. 

There are a lot of cowboys out there just trying to make money the quick way but, every so often, you'll find a pet store that actually cares about their livestock. Don't get disheartened everyone!! They are out there somewhere!!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I have to chime in on Moxxies side. 

"Usually, at least some of the Birds look under-the-weather.
And several times now thay have had a sign saying no Birds will be sold for a few weeks because they are all on a medicine for the time being...."

This is the absolute norm at Petsmart...and it has been this way for a long, long time.

And I would like to highlight Jay3's comment....about buying an animal in order to rescue it. Because, this sort of purchase is not all that unusual...and it is the kind of thing which bad breeders, retailers, etc. absolutely live on. And it is a very difficult thing...because you want to help the poor animal, but you know your money is going to someone who will likely continue biz-as-usual. So, instead of doing that...or for some of us- after doing it, if your heart cannot bear it....you have to come back at that place with some hardball.

And SmithFamily...if your last post was "putting on a moderators hat" and '"finding some perspective"...well....I wouldn't want to converse with you when you are being....subjective.

First off...any company which is involved in selling animals has an absolute MORAL responsibility to insure the best environment for those animals. Those who don't...shoudln't be in the biz. There are a lot of much easier ways to make money.

Secondly....as I said, this Petsmart thing has been going on for YEARS...and it's STILL a huge issue with them....I was actually shocked when I landed on this thread and saw this is still going on.....

So...you have to take a stand...are you on the side of animal welfare?...or are you on the side of "business has a right...etc, etc., and think of all of the poor employees who could lose their jobs, etc."...?

Next, put aside the fact that the company gives millions to animal charities. If there is recorded mistreatment of their animals, and it has been confirmed, and it has been going on for many years....then how's about they take some of that money and put it towards training and hiring ? 

If, in order to achieve this...it is necessary to apply enough public pressure to actually get them to discontinue selling animals (either permanently if they choose NOT to make a correction...or temporarily if they decide to do the right thing and invest in improving the lives and health of what they sell ~ which, IN TURN, would result in their animal breeders also having to up their game ~ since a large company can have that sort of sway)...then absolutely, so be it.

Honestly, Smith....your post really sounds like something which would come from the company's public relations rep....and it was very disappointing to read.

And lastly...if the USDA says that your food is primo...that's all you need to know ? Then I won't mention, for example, how much feces the USDA deems acceptable and allowable in your burgers....or the levels of bacteria which is deemed acceptable in your chicken, fish, and canned goods....

"I wish to remain in the dark"....Well, OK, everybody's got their something. And that's why Petsmart can exist....

But once again, for anyone who is interested in taking responsibility for not just the things you put in your body....but for whether or not you are in fact promoting the sort of practices which may be cruel, unsustainable, unfair, exploitative of laborers, etc....

I would heartily recommend not pulling the covers over your eyes and instead investigating where these things come from.....And if you DON'T like what you find...well....you can do something about it....


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Georgina said:


> We don't have petsmart here in the UK but we do have pets at home which I guess is pretty much the same thing.


Y'know, that policy of not selling birds may well have come from change of ownership. At one time there were Petsmarts, then my local one became something else (I forget what), and is now a Pets at Home. 

BTW, we have found that Pets at Home stores with an in-house veterinary practice can be good places to take rescued pigeons. The one we use in E Anglia is great, and my local store said they will treat pigeons just as any other bird. I doubt that any of them have specialized avian vets, though.

John


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

If this thread turns into a slanging match, it will be closed and posts may be removed.

This is not about what anyone should or should not eat, or anything similar, and is getting too far off topic in places.

John


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jaye said:


> ....This is the absolute norm at Petsmart...and it has been this way for a long, long time.....
> And SmithFamily...if your last post was "putting on a moderators hat" and '"finding some perspective"...well....I wouldn't want to converse with you when you are being....subjective.
> 
> First off...any company which is involved in selling animals has an absolute MORAL responsibility to insure the best environment for those animals. Those who don't...shoudln't be in the biz. There are a lot of much easier ways to make money.
> ...



Well.....sometimes it is best to let the readers draw their own conclusions....and not try to be the judge, jury and executioner. 

I'm not real comfortable at being put in the position of defending what may not be defendable. Neither am I willing to condemn someone or somebody, without at first reviewing all the facts. 

You make a number of serious allegations, which I have no way of knowing first hand, what the situation really is. And then you attempt to bully me in some sort of holier-then-thou and condescending view, that you have somehow been gifted with higher MORAL Authority over not only me, but every reader who dares to look at the larger picture, or from a different perspective.

So whenever you challenge someone to "Take a Stand" for animal rights....you run the risk of appearing as extreme. I may agree with some of your stated goals, such as respect and reasonable care of animals, but your methods are "More in your Face" type of demands, which makes me feel sorry for the people you are mad at this week.

Then again, PetSmart has a proven record of saving millions of animals, and I only have some evidence of unhappy customers and a video of what is suppose to be of a supplier. And for all I know this supplier could be selling to numerous chain stores, or could be a complete fabrication, in order to hurt this company ! 

Based on the evidence provided so far, I don't know if you could even launch a single store protest march or demonstration. Maybe you can, and if so, more power to you. Just remember in order to get onto the local 11 O'clock news, you will want to be arrested. Then again, if you have evidence of what you suggest, then I am sure a 60 Minutes type of show, would love to do the story. American's are animal lovers, over 100 Million of us have pets ! I am sure anything which could attract a 100 Million of us, would be produced and shown on the news ! So let's see some real investagative reporting. 

Simple complaints such as "Uneducated Employees"....please, that's an indictment of mostly every retail establishment in the USA !!!! The world is not perfect, and perhaps you and I will not see eye to eye on this issue. But, that is OK.

"It is better to light a single candle, then to curse the darkness. "


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Sent to me by a member..a bit off topic but valuable information for our members*

FDA Requests Seizure of Animal Food Products at PETCO Distribution Center
Today, at the request of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), U.S. Marshals seized various animal food products stored under unsanitary conditions at the PETCO Animal Supplies Distribution Center located in Joliet, Ill., pursuant to a warrant issued by the United States District Court in Chicago.
U.S. Marshals seized all FDA-regulated animal food susceptible to rodent and pest contamination. The seized products violate the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act because it was alleged in a case filed by the United States Attorney that they were being held under unsanitary conditions. (The Act uses the term "insanitary" to describe such conditions).
During an FDA inspection of a PETCO distribution center in April, widespread and active rodent and bird infestation was found. The FDA inspected the facility again in May and found continuing and widespread infestation.
"We simply will not allow a company to store foods under filthy and unsanitary conditions that occur as a direct result of the company's failure to adequately control and prevent pests in its facility," said Margaret O'K. Glavin, associate commissioner for regulatory affairs. "Consumers expect that such safeguards will be in place not only for human food, but for pet food as well."
The distribution center in Joliet, Ill., provides pet food products and supplies to PETCO retail stores in 16 states including Alabama, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin.
FDA has no reports of pet illness or death associated with consumption of animal food distributed by PETCO, and does not have evidence that the food is unsafe for animals. However, the seized products were in permeable packages and held under conditions that could affect the food's integrity and quality.
As a precaution, consumers who have handled products originating from the PETCO distribution center should thoroughly wash their hands with hot water and soap. Any surfaces that came in contact with the packages should be washed as well. Consumers are further advised as a precaution to thoroughly wash products sold in cans and glass containers from PETCO in the 16 affected states.
If a pet has become ill after eating these food products, pet owners should contact their veterinarian and report illnesses to FDA state consumer complaint coordinators.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2008/NEW01854.html
________________________________________


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Then again, PetSmart has a proven record of saving millions of animals, and I only have some evidence of unhappy customers and a video of what is suppose to be of a supplier


Thanks for admitting that...because, as you know...sometimes information doesn't just land in your lap....you have to go looking for it. Your current position seems to be based upon the facts you simply have at hand. On the other side of things, there is a litany of complaints over the years about this company...and not very hard to find with moderate effort and a little time, actually.

This isn't about convenience of gathering information....(although I thank Charis FOR dropping that last lil' tidbit right in our laps)...

It's about a store... which supposedly serves animal lovers...doing very bad things...and what can be done to make them straighten up their act...and what can be done to assure humane treatment for animals....

The info is there.... just like info on food-grading standards is there....if one chooses to ask questions about it....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> I have to chime in on Moxxies side.
> 
> "Usually, at least some of the Birds look under-the-weather.
> And several times now thay have had a sign saying no Birds will be sold for a few weeks because they are all on a medicine for the time being...."
> ...


All I can add to this well written comment is AMEN! Smith, You DO sound like a PR person for Petsmart. Asking whether or not the animals would be better off at their competitors is a ridiculous statement. You ask if their lives would be greatly improved. YES it will, when places who abuse and mistreat their animals are brought into the light and stopped. You have to start somewhere, and Petsmart is as good a place as any. If they would be no better off, is not an excuse to look the other way. Wrong is wrong. Just because many others do the same wrong, doesn't make it okay. One abuser at a time. Eventually we will get to the others. Any animal mill is wrong. And a company who cared about animal welfare wouldn't deal with them. Petco uses the same supplier by the way. And what you are saying is that this is okay because a healthy amount of profits from this firm go to saving millions of animals? I'll just bet it isn't okay to the animals on the end with the short stick. Abuse and mistreatment is just wrong. No matter how hard you try, you cannot make it right or acceptable. And it certainly sounded as though you were saying that all those people who would lose their jobs were more important than the cruelty and pain these animals suffer. It is exactly this kind of indifference to another creatures suffering that has allowed this kind of thing to go on for so long. But we are gaining in numbers now, and people with your indifference will eventually be outnumbered. Thank God!


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2008)

I think you need to save the lashings for the people that really need them ...but then thats just my simple opinion  as sad as it is people should still be allowed their own opinions dont you think

p.s. I didnt see anywhere that he said it was ok to treat animals that way ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I suppose you could look at it that way, but then, it is exactly that opinion that has allowed this kind of mistreatment for so long. Of course..............THAT'S JUST MY OPINION!


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2008)

oh so your saying that yelling at us here is going to help all those animals out there mmm I think you need to take a step back and rethink your approach on the subject of gaining your masses


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh, I should have added that that is exactly what we are doing, is giving our opinion, on Petsmart and all the other places like them. Warren is objecting to our doing that. We weren't lashing him. We were lashing the mistreatment of animals. HE seems to object to our voicing OUR opinions.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2008)

well all I can say is this ...you have to remember that there will always be two sides to the fence soall you can do is say these are our facts and will you help us or who will help us ..then take your army and work some magic with your mojo and see where it takes you from there


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please let's be respectful of each other. Everyone does have a right to their opinion whether or not we agree with what that opinion may be. We need to honor each other by respecting that. 
Just to divert you all...there have been some folks posting that have found some ferals that need help. These folks could use all our expertise...so give me a hand, will ya!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> Just to divert you all...there have been some folks posting that have found some ferals that need help. These folks could use all our expertise...so give me a hand, will ya!


Thank You! I wondered why the emergency posts weren't being answered and where everybody was! I was feeling bad for the posters and wasn't sure how to answer - you guys (m/f) are much better at that. This thread (imho) can go on forever and not go anywhere.
I worked and managed a GREAT pet shop when I was younger. We hand fed and raised ALL the birds. They were happy, healthy, well cared for and spotless. And people still complained.


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