# Weakness after attempt to lay eggs



## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Hello!
I need help. We have a pigeon. Lately she feels very weak. She attempted to lay an egg, but instead she push out only protein mass with her droppings which looks like an egg without a shell.
After that she only sits and ruffles up, activity is low.
She has some appetite and drinks a lot of water.
Also she really wants salt and tries to find something white to eat.
We gave her calcium and grit but it doesn't help.
Should we do calcium + d3 injection?


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## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Would you please post a picture of the bird and the bird's droppings?










^ Regarding the "protein mass" which she pushed out, did it look like mucous? (Like the image below the label "PARASITE" in this picture?)


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Would you please post a picture of the bird and the bird's droppings?
> 
> ^ Regarding the "protein mass" which she pushed out, did it look like mucous? (Like the image below the label "PARASITE" in this picture?)


Yes, sure. Here the photos of the bird and her droppings.
The droppings basically look like unformed egg without a shell.



Spoiler: photos

































Before nesting attempt droppings was absolutely normal, like on your image:


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Looks like part of an egg that she pushed out. It's possible that she has been eggbound for a while and finally got rid off it. I have a female that had the same issues. Do you have access to antibiotics to treat for infection?


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## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Are those sesame seeds in the second picture? There is some indication from research that they might actually reduce calcium absorption if the bird's diet doesn't contain enough magnesium. Sesame seeds are high in calcium and oxalic acids / oxalates (2.2 to 2.5%, 14.3 grams per 100 grams) which could intefere with calcium absorption. Yet sesame seeds are eaten in Japan specifically to improve calcium absorption, so it may or may not be true, no one seems to be certain either way. Magneisum helps to regulate (remove excess) oxalates from the body.

I do give sesame seeds to feral pigeons here (who don't tend to be calcium deficient because they live outside where limestone is everywhere), but I also include flax seed and occasionally peanuts which are both good sources of magnesium. I also don't feed the feral flock enough to provide a full day's meal for any individual bird. They all get some seeds and natural supplements, none get a full meal so their actual daily dietary intake varies (naturally.)

Here's an interesting article on the subject of oxalates and minerals.





Soluble vs Insoluble Oxalates: What’s the Difference? | Marek Doyle







www.marekdoyle.com





Perhaps stop giving sesame seeds and see if the problem goes away?


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Hi, it's exactly what happened to my pigeon Londo last days. I'm still treating her....

Is this the first or the second egg? Londo laid an egg without a shell (it happened once even in 2020) then she has become always more lethargic. Like your bird she started to eat a lot of pigeon mineral block (which contains calcium, etc and looks whitish in color) and to drink a lot of water.
She did not lay the second egg after the normal time (about 48 hours) and looked always more passive. So I got very alarmed and worried.
This is what I did.
I daily inserted a small amount of paraffin oil (see the pic, it's a lubricant) directly inside the cloaca. I'm going to explain. I used a 5 ml syringe, I gently placed it at the vent opening (if necessary clean the area before doing that) and slowly inserted a small amount of oil (I filled the syringe with 1 ml of product then I inserted about 0,1 ml, just check the mark on the syringe).
According to my vet instructions I also started an antibiotic treatment (we used doxycycline in tablet form. If you are going to use it remember to remove all calcium sources). Fortunately she laid the second egg: a first piece on Friday night and two pieces on Sunday night (see the pics taken on Sunday).
Yesterday we finished the antibiotic course.

Today I started to give her a natural supplement for liver containing, between its ingredients, artichoke and goldenrod.
She still has very watery poops (it seems cat pee...) because she drinks a lot of water. Last summer she got a horrible crop infection, the supplement fixed the water issue so I hope that it will work again.
Artichoke has many health benefits, among them it helps liver health and increases the production of bile, which helps remove harmful toxins from liver. Goldenrod has many benefits too, it's good even for kidney. If you could find something similar it would be good (I bought it in an agricultural supply store).

Yes, a calcium/D3 injection would be good. Too much grit could create a blockage so it's better to give calcium in a different form.

In 2019 Londo also had a cloacal prolapse (yes, she's not lucky.... Btw I hoped that she stopped with laying eggs but I was wrong 😭...) so keep an eye on that...

Keep us updated.


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> Looks like part of an egg that she pushed out. It's possible that she has been eggbound for a while and finally got rid off it. I have a female that had the same issues.


Well, that sounds quite similar. It is the third time when she comes through this. Our girl is almost 10 years old, by the way.


Marina B said:


> Do you have access to antibiotics to treat for infection?


Yes, I do. I mean, I don't have direct access, of course, but I can order any of them from Germany, if needed.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If you can get amoxycillin, give 40 mg twice a day for 10 days. Also probiotics while she is on antibiotics. Mine also had a prolapse, the vet (not an avian one) couldn't do anything for her. I almost had her euthanized, but she had this incredible will to survive and is doing well. You probably needs to give her more calcium on a regular basis. The D3 is also important as this helps with calcium absorption.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

This is what my pigeon expelled. At the time I was horrified and thought I would lose her. I thought it was her whole reproductive system and send a photo to an avian vet (5 hours drive away unfortunately). But they said it was a rotten egg and infection).


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We had to have surgery on Fiona. Dr Speer removed multiple mummified eggs and “girlie parts.” 
Would give your girl antibiotics and calcium and if possible get a vet ultrasound to check for retained eggs. Hope she is all better soon!


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Marina B said:


> This is what my pigeon expelled. At the time I was horrified and thought I would lose her. I thought it was her whole reproductive system and send a photo to an avian vet (5 hours drive away unfortunately). But they said it was a rotten egg and infection).


Oh, that's terrible. Your dove went through the very difficult situation. 
I think we have a better case, at least our girl feels way better now. We took an x-ray of her and it seems okay. Later when she will feel better, I want to make her blood analysis, we have very qualified ornithologist in our city.


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## Leelee (Feb 9, 2021)

flamesoff said:


> Hello!
> I need help. We have a pigeon. Lately she feels very weak. She attempted to lay an egg, but instead she push out only protein mass with her droppings which looks like an egg without a shell.
> After that she only sits and ruffles up, activity is low.
> She has some appetite and drinks a lot of water.
> ...


My guess..
She is egg bound..the egg may have broken inside her.
Take her to a bird vet, if she is egg bound dnly a vet can help her.


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Leelee said:


> My guess..
> She is egg bound..the egg may have broken inside her.
> Take her to a bird vet, if she is egg bound dnly a vet can help her.


She's already fine. Droppings are almost okay now. Seems like the pieces of the egg with no shell have come out and now our girl feels okay.
But I want to prevent this in the future and understang what's really going on and why she can't lay normal eggs.
If the reproduction cycle has ended for her - why she still tries?
Why she constantly tries to get some salt, despite she has access to minerals, grid and vitamins. Why salt?


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## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Some salts have potassium, magnesium and other minerals. Are the vitamin and mineral supplements providing sufficient vitamin D and minerals? Does the bird get direct sunlight?


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Doves Witness said:


> Some salts have potassium, magnesium and other minerals.


She's looking for a simple salt, like that which usually added in food. This sald doesn't contain any additions, it's a simple salt (NaCl). Even the sea salt which we have contains almost 90% of NaCl.

So, I guess no, she is not looking for anything else. She wants salt more than anything else.



Doves Witness said:


> Are the vitamin and mineral supplements providing sufficient vitamin D and minerals? Does the bird get direct sunlight?


Yes, she has constant access to vitamins and minerals. We have special vitamin and mineral complex from Germany, dedicated specially for pigeons.
The bird gets direct sunlight when we have sunny days (it's about 1-2 days per week). Last summer she's been getting direct sunlight all the time laying at window.


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## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Various old books about pigeon keeping, and specifically recipes for making grit ( A post with recipes for grit ), include salt. Mostly inexpensive rock salt which has other minerals as well as sodium chloride. All of such books that I have read indicate both that the birds really like the salt, and many of the books also mention a belief that the salt "cleans out" the birds -- which suggests to me that there may have been some indication among pigeon keepers that the birds are in better health _after_ consuming a lot of salt than before, although the inclusion of extra salts in bird diets nowadays is frowned upon.

Salt provides electrolytes, but those are generally needed only in small quantities and it is entirely likely that all such needs are met by typical pigeon diet formulations.

So, as you put it "Why salt?"

My current guesses are that it has some effect on intestinal parasites, or some beneficial effect on the digestive tract itself, perhaps stimulating beneficial changes which are helpful in birds receiving consistent and standardized diets.


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

I need to bump this topic again.

The problem persists, although to a lesser extent.
Still, from time to time our bird tries to lay eggs. We have limited communication with her, we do not pet her, we do not provoke her to lay eggs.
There is an artificial egg in the cage, which we do not take away anymore. We used to put this egg under her when we saw her looking for a place to lay - it helped prevent her from laying her own eggs and she was always awake because she didn't waste her energy on it.

However, lately, in place of this, she just once a month begins to "get sick": in her litter there are impurities of protein _(from the unformed egg)_, she stops eating enough and for several days sits feebly. Very rarely she may vomit.

Then in 3-4 days she comes to normal, her droppings are normalized, she begins to eat well and behaves as usual.

And always during the time she is "sick" she is just *obsessed with salt*. Exactly with salt. We tried to give her white grits and calcium, and crushed mineral stone (also white) - she is not interested, she tastes it, but does not eat it. She is not looking for some white grains, she is looking for salt, here we do not have any doubts.
*The problem is that birds are not allowed a lot of salt.*

We have *special UV lamp for birds*, and we also constantly add to her water in the recommended proportion of *vitamin D3*, where the daily norm of vitamin D3 is present.

We are already thinking about having surgery to sterilize her. But in order to do that we have to take the bird to Germany, where there are the best specialists in this field.
This is, of course, a last resort, as it is a very big risk + a lot of stress for our pet.

*The question is: рow can her condition be improved without surgery?*


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Colombina said:


> Hi, it's exactly what happened to my pigeon Londo last days. I'm still treating her....
> 
> Is this the first or the second egg? Londo laid an egg without a shell (it happened once even in 2020) then she has become always more lethargic. Like your bird she started to eat a lot of pigeon mineral block (which contains calcium, etc and looks whitish in color) and to drink a lot of water.
> She did not lay the second egg after the normal time (about 48 hours) and looked always more passive. So I got very alarmed and worried.
> ...





flamesoff said:


> I need to bump this topic again.
> 
> The problem persists, although to a lesser extent.
> Still, from time to time our bird tries to lay eggs. We have limited communication with her, we do not pet her, we do not provoke her to lay eggs.
> ...


I re-read your whole thread.
I want to frankly share my experience with this kind of egg-related problems. 

My poor pigeon Londo (you can re-read her story at post # 6) passed away on April 27th. 
Unfortunately in a long term this kind of problems could be fatal. 
Over the years we successfully overcome the issues that appeared (unfortunately she also had not egg-related issues). Londo was very happy and had a great life. But last time she got egg-related issues (eggs without shell) we could not save her...I felt so bad. The vet thinks that she developed a cancer (in her reproductive system). 

I don't want to scare you, of course. It's just that your pigeon makes me think about Londo. I only want to say that if you have the opportunity to talk to a knowledgeable specialist please do that (you could contact him/her by phone, email, etc.). Ask him to explain you all the possibilities (surgery, injections, etc). This way you will be able to carefully evaluate all risk and benefits and take the best decision (bring her to Germany or what else). 

Please keep us updated.


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> I re-read your whole thread.
> I want to frankly share my experience with this kind of egg-related problems.
> 
> My poor pigeon Londo (you can re-read her story at post # 6) passed away on April 27th.
> ...


I am really sorry.
But in our case it's not a cancer. We did two x-rays at different times (one is about half a yerar ago, and second one only month ago), no signs of any cancer.

She also has other symptoms: muscle pain, decreased appetite, increased thirst.
We started to give her special vitamin sipplements for pigeons and he started to fell better. We giving her this vitamin complex for third day and we're observing her condition. Default course length is 10-14 days.


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## Colombina (Jan 22, 2017)

Please forgive me, probably I wasn't clear enough. I have never said that your bird has a cancer (I can't even say that my bird had a cancer... It's what the vet thought but he did not do an x-ray 😔).
I said that this kind of egg-related issues (eggs without shells, etc. etc. ) in a long term could be life threatening (think about an egg yolk peritonitis, etc).

If you gave a look at my old post unfortunately even my poor pigeon Londo had this kind of egg-related problems (I attach a pic taken in 2020).
As I noticed many points in common with your bird (even Londo had increased thirst, decreased appetite... Of course, I have never said that the two situations are exactly identical) I suggested you to talk to a knowledgeable specialist if you have the opportunity to contact one.
Just my own opinion 😊.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that the special vitamin supplement is helping.

Keep us updated.


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## flamesoff (10 mo ago)

Colombina said:


> Please forgive me, probably I wasn't clear enough. I have never said that your bird has a cancer (I can't even say that my bird had a cancer... It's what the vet thought but he did not do an x-ray 😔).
> I said that this kind of egg-related issues (eggs without shells, etc. etc. ) in a long term could be life threatening (think about an egg yolk peritonitis, etc).
> 
> If you gave a look at my old post unfortunately even my poor pigeon Londo had this kind of egg-related problems (I attach a pic taken in 2020).
> ...


It's okay. Yes, droppings of our girl looked very similar to what you posted on the last photo.
I'm searching for the specialist, but there are few. Maybe someone on this forum knows something about urgent help for pigeons in similar situations.


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