# NEED Help ASAP



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. 
We have a serius problem.. 
Me wife and me demolished our house and in the proces of tearing it down we found on the roof a broken nest with a baby pidgeon and an unhached egg

Basicly we kept them warm. started to feed him with corn gruel and water mashed together (very soup-like) 
this is the 3 day that we have him. 

his beak and legs are blackish. rest of him was pink. 

Now do to ignorance we fed him even when his baloonlikething was half ful. 

Eyes are closed and 0 controll of his head movement. he can squirm around but without controll

(food was right temp and he is under a small voltage lamp which is shining into a black cloth so he isnt in direct light. ) 

Basicly all was going well till a few moments ago. 

Today he chiruped at me and i feed him 1ml of corn gruel and afterwards .5ml of water. all room temp. 
We feed him aprox 5 times poer day. 

Now after 2 hours i went to check on him and he is breading rapidly. his baloonlike thing is 1/3 of his body not counting the head. He is shaking and floping around. 

Based on the information i gathered he is from 4-7 days old. 

Right now he is turning kinda red. and im afraid for him. what is happening can anyone tell me .. ask and will suply more info but i dont have the right questions so that i can give you more detailed answers. 

Please. ,


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If the crop isn't emptying please don't feed anymore. The crop must be empty before another feeding.

Put the baby bird on heating pad-set on low, with towel between the pad and baby. Make sure there is no cold air drafts on the baby.

You need to get a baby bird formula from the pet store, like Kaytee's Exact or Harrisons.

Also, where are you located?.... we might have someone near to help.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Is it possible to post pictures? 
Can you tell us where you are? We might have someone close that can help.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

He could be too hot.
You have definitely over-fed him.
With baby pigeons, you only feed them once their crop is empty. With the baby you have, the balloon thing you are talking about, is the crop and it sounds like he is too full. .
Can you post a picture?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

picture in a few moments. 

Located in Europe- Croatia- Bregana (small place near Zagreb((capitol))

heat pad- towel. i dont have heat pad. 

i used the rice in the sock combo. 
Checked the day racig bird comparison and he looks 3 days old. 

but he is ith us already 3 days. 

ok. he calmed doen and is going piu piu.- 

pic is beeing uploaded.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I can tell you really care about him.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3146/41587891nm1.jpg



http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9996/63130410uv9.jpg


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Please.. 
Is there a doctor in the house.. 

Anyone.. 

Anything ? 

What to do. what to check ?

How to keep him warm. im not sure if its warm enough. its midnight here and its geting colder in the house. heating is off room temp is about 20 celsius. can i keep him under open light during the night ? 
Is he alowed to be in the light or should he be in the dark. 

If in the dark how to keep him warm. the rice sock gets cold quickly. and a heating pad i dont have. 
What temp should he be 40 celsuis ?? 

come on . please. im concerned.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OK...In the first picture, I can tell the crop is very full. Don't feed anymore until the crop empties. As he grows, you will need to feed him more, probably a little bit more each day. I think that 5 ml of water, after the 1 ml of corn gruel, is way too much. At this point, if the gruel is runny, I don't think you need to give him water at all. Remember, feed him when the crop [balloon] is empty. Do you have access to cereal for human babies?

In the second picture, his head looks really red to me...almost like a sun burn. I'm, wondering if the heat lamp is too close? How close is it?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

that was 1ml of gruel. and 0.5 ml of water  
runny is ??? 
yes i can get the cereal for babys but not until morning

the lamp is aprox 20cm from him. its a 40W table lamp. 
But it is heating into a black t shirt which is over him. so he is not in the direct light. 

The redness is probbly from the 2fast breathing i panicked a fewm minutes ago. 

he is back to his pinkys self.. almost.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

But what about his crop. will it empty im afraid that he might burst or something. 
im basicly.. scared.. 
I have a cat but she likes him my turtle isnt interested as it cant swim yet.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sasha19_81 said:


> that was 1ml of gruel. and 0.5 ml of water
> runny is ???
> yes i can get the cereal for babys but not until morning
> 
> ...


Wow.......that's a little less than 8 inches. I think too close.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

ok but if i pull it back will it give heat? as i have no other way to give him warmth except start the heating in the whole room and pump it to 35-40 celsius

but in that case it will be dry air


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Runny means thin. When they are little babies we feed them thin formula.
Yes, I think the heat lamp is too close. The baby should be warm but not too hot. Put your hand on top of the baby and if the lamp feel hot to your hand, then it is too hot for the baby. It also would be a good idea to put a cloth over the baby, or a feather duster if you have one. What you want to do is mimic the parent birds behavior as best you can.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I think pull it back just a little bit. And you've got him covered, so he should be ok. He actually looks pretty good to me. I think you're doing a great job so far. If you pull the lamp back and he begins to feel cold or chilled to you, then move it back I guess. You could also try to rice and sock again but I know that doesn't last a long time.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

ok yes the corn is runny. 

the lamp is hot if its direct light but as i said it goes first into a black t shirt. so underneath it it doesnt feel that warm. certanly not hot. 

ok. please tell me how would you solve the heating in this case.. 

the lamp is the only heat source you can use. now please give me the answer how to use it. 
height - dir3ction- lining of the bed- evrything please.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

BTW the rice in the sock melted in my microwave a few moments ago  i went to check on him and now i have a "runny" rice in the microwave + parts of the sock


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Leave your hand on top of the baby for about 5 minutes, with the heat lamp over your hand and if it does not feel hot, then it's alright.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

ok. im afk for the next 5 mins. will report afterwards.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OK. I'll be waiting to hear back from you!


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

question.. how warm the baby should be 35-40 celsuis ?? 
because he is a bit cold or to the touch. so i think he is somewhere around 32-36 celsius.. as the human body temperature is 36


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Birds have a higher temperature than humans. If you can keep the external temperature at 36, that should be adequate. If you can find a feathered thing to put on top him, that would be best.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

dont have anything feathered.. even my pillows are polyester fibers.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

[img=http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5439/dsc02865yx6.jpg]


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they do flop around a bit at that age and they don't seem to control their head motions very well. That is, it doesn't necessarily sound to me like your little fellow is doing anything out of the ordinary. He may be, but what you describe is about what I'd expect from someone who hadn't been around pigeon chicks before.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You will want him warmer than you are. I usually cover them with a cloth or something like that.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That actually looks pretty good. You might carefully close up the open end and keep checking on him quite often while making adjustments until you get him where he's starting to feel warm.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It looks to me like the way you have him set up is just fine. Just monitor him regularly to make sure he feels to be a comfortable temperature.

Tomorrow, pick up some rice cereal for human babies. You can mix that with the gruel you are already feeding. As the baby grows,thicken the gruel gradually. Pigeons grow very quickly and so when he is 3 weeks he will look completely different.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. so he is closed now. will not feed him untill his crop subsides/vanishes.. 

as it is 01.20 AM and i have to get up for work in 6 am. im going to bed. will check on him again in an hour or so just to make sure he is ok. 

Will post again in aprox 7 hours. 

Id like you please to post what baby food to buy. 
I solved the feeding part with a injection in which i pluged a part of a pen so that its very slim and still serves as a injection as the normal is 2 large for him. (ofc cleaned and safe) unfortunatly in this god forsaken land there are 0 premade baby nursing food products. (they have one for large parrots (ara and kakadu) ) but i dont think that would work. So please post how much feeding in mililiters and how much water and does he need any minerals or something. Id much appreciate it. Thank you.


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

the baby should feel warmer than you, not cooler.

What about the other egg? Did it hatch?
I'm guessing no?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

no the other one didnt hatch as i belive that it was out of the warmth for 2 long. 

And this is it from me for now. ok. the wife checked on him now that we have closed the opening he is warm to the touch and its warm inside we have moved the lamp a bit further and will check on him again. thank you all for this.. Id realy like to see him live. 

Will post again as i said in aprox 7 hours.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> Ok. so he is closed now. will not feed him untill his crop subsides/vanishes..
> 
> as it is 01.20 AM and i have to get up for work in 6 am. im going to bed. will check on him again in an hour or so just to make sure he is ok.
> 
> ...


Everyday the baby will eat more than the day before because every day the baby will grow. After a few more days, you will figure out how much this baby needs. It's not un-similar to figuring out the needs of a human baby. If you are feeding 1ml now, next feeding maybe 1.5ml or1.75ml. The rule is never add food to a crop that already has food in it.
In a earlier post I recommended buying powdered rice cereal for human babies. You can add this to the gruel you are already feeding. Since you are feeding thin gruel, you don't need to give the baby water at this time. There is already enough in what you are feeding.
Yes, it is ok for the baby to be warmer than you, just not hot.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When it comes to making substitute formula, the recipe in this thread is considered one of the best. Some of the ingredients can be difficult to come by, but it will give you an idea the kinds of things to include:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> When it comes to making substitute formula, the recipe in this thread is considered one of the best. Some of the ingredients can be difficult to come by, but it will give you an idea the kinds of things to include:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15236
> 
> Pidgey


That's really helpful, Pidgey. I think you're right that some of those things might be hard to come by given where they are located.


----------



## gbbalcuns (Mar 13, 2008)

*Crock pot on warm worked ok*

If you have a slow cooker or crock pot that has a WARM setting it would work but you need to turn it off every hour or so.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. 
We thry to lep him warm. we placed 2 0.5l bottles of warm water wraped in a towel around him so that hopefully this will keep him warm for some time. 
I have nothing else to say for now. as nothing is changed. 

Will post again in the afternoone (12h)


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Sasha
I am in Belgium. 
I don't know how many days it would take  , but I could maybe send you some Kaytie Exact Formula (pigeon baby food) by post if you don't find it in Croatia.
If you PM or email me your adress, I'll do it this afternoon. 
Myriam, pigeon rescue center Lapalomatriste, Belgium


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Update. 

Ok. the bird is doing better. 

We found a solution to keeping him warm. Without the heatingpad i sat down to think and found a solution for now. I have filled 3 0.5l bottles with hot watter and wraped them in towels and made a triangle around him. coverd it up with my black t shirt and placed a table lamp to light into the cloth. 

He is warm now to the touch. the crop has subsided and he has craped 2 times since yestrday night so im glad that he is able to digest this food. 

As for the food. 
He didnt recieve today as his crop is still full and we will not feed him till it emptyes. 
I have puffed rice (for eating with milk) pure without any additions. So i was thinking of crushing it into a powder and then boil it in water so that it disolves. and make it (new word i learned yestrday) "runny" and mix it up with the corn gruel im using now. 

What about the vitamins and minerals (human babys need)? Do the birdies need it too ?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Update 2

I talked to my Vet now. and she told me that i should buy seeds for outdoor birds and crush them into powder, soak in water and give it to him. Also that i can bake some egs and give him a small bit of the white part (for proteins) and to buy Liquid vitamins for birds and apply that in 2-3 drops per food time. Because the gruel isnt enough so that the best would be to mix it up. 

Any coments on this ?


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

The heating idea sounds great 

but as for the food..

crushing seeds and soaking them is a bad idea because bacteria grows as soon as you wet seeds and this will seriously kill your baby. seeds should be eaten dry, but your baby is too young yet for dry seeds.

Don't boil the puffed rice either...Maybe grind it up, but don't boil it. Just add water and make it "runny"  

But, I think corn gruel would be best for now, or some rice baby cereal...it comes dry in a packet, like a powder, and you add water. But you really need to get some kaytee as soon as you can. You should send your address so that myrpalom can send some in the post if you can't find it in Croatia.

You sound like you're doing great with the baby, but please, do not crush the seeds and soak them for it. It will make it sick.

Kaytee is the best way, and since it is such a young baby, it really needs it. Someone is offering to send you some, so it will be easy 

Good luck!


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

also, if you're gonna give egg, i think the yolk is the best part. That is what it says in that recipe for crop milk above...

Maybe mix it in with the gruel. But not too much.


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

Oh, and how long since his crop had emptied>?

It really should empty within a few hours....It might be because he isn't warm enough. A crop won't empty if it is cold, and it will kill the baby, as the food will just sit inside and won't digest.

How long has it been since you last fed him?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

due to ignorance we have fed him evry 2 hours not nowing that the crop must e empty which led to it overfilling. the baby wasnt warm enough and it didnt digest it. 

Last feeding was 18 hours ago. The baby is fine.. he has digested almost all of the food now and he is warm . when it emptyes i will feed him more. 

he isnt in distress right now. 
Thank you for the info. on the seeds.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I hope you take Myriam up on yje offer to send you formula.
I'm glad the baby is doing better. This was the first thread I checked this morning.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Called the post office. With the Eastern weekend, it could take untill friday before the Kaytee is in Croatie.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You could almost drive it there sooner.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Would like to take some holidays and make the trip... but as you might know I have a pigeon rescue center with +/- 700 pigeons to take care of... no holidays for me!
I sent the Kaytee this afternoon by post to Sasha, should be there on thursday.
Myriam


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hey guys,
What about adding a little apple cider vinegar to the formula? Or giving the baby yoghurt? Wouldn't those help maybe with crop emptying? We only took care of 1 baby, but from what I recall, we alternated between doing those two things...
Sabina


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

The watter bottles proved a miracle.. he is now very warm and we have used a baby termomether and his temp is 39.4 

the crop is empty and i have feed him nestles baby rice powder.. i used only 0.5 ml of it so will feed him again in an hour or so. 

Blasted thing has regained some strengtha and is now proving to be a problem with feeding  as he is trashing around each time he hears my voice.  

He looks better he sleeps all the time. I will uplode some more pictures in a few hours after i feed him again. right now i have to go back to work 

so next post will be in aprox 3 hours.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am not sure about Apple Cider Vinegar in such a tiny baby, but the yogurt would help with some probiotics.

Reti


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

[img=http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6051/11472332fp7.jpg]

The litle one craped a few moments ago while we were prepairing the food. So ignore it on the left side  


[img=http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8302/73390597et9.jpg]

This is a way we prepare him so that he understands whats gona happen .- place the injection to his beak. put just one drop out on top of his beak- as its usualy open he tastes it and then is happy to provide a few openiongs of his beak on his own. after the 2. or 3. swallow we have to open the beak slowly by hand as he isnt willing. 


[img=http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4634/85798709ou2.jpg]

His crop was empty when we started and he recieved around 0.7ml of runny nestle baby rice. He looks like this now. is it enough or should we give him more ? i mean check his crop in this picture i belive you can see it quite good. 

Please info as we are still not sure how much food to give him. We feed him about evry 2 hours. If we give him more food then that would prolong the time between feeds?? with last one around 01.am and then basicly nothing till 07am. is that wrong or ? should we give him in the night also ? as he is asleep each time we check him.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The crop looks good. That is what it should look like.

Reti


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

His crop should balloon out some after he has been fed so you will be able to tell there is food in the crop. I would think you should feed him 1ml at this point, maybe a bit more. Because of his age, you should feed him during the night, at least until he is bigger and will take more food at each feeding.
Everyday you will feed a bit more because as he grows, his body will require more food.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

What a precious little guy!
Sasha, do you allow me to be his godmother? LOL


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

@ reti the crop is good as it is on the picture.. thats a full crop . 

@ all 

Well i dont think he has grown any in the last 3 days. atleast i cant figure it out He has gained a bit of collor.. but as he is the whole time closed up i cant realy figure if he is growing. 

Maybe i cant see it yet. But he is thrying to stand on his legs while throwing him self around to move.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have a baby right now being raised by the parents and I don't think he is growing any either. So, maybe we just don't see then grow because we look at them all the time.

Reti


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

@ Myrpalom ofcourse you can be his godmother. Right now his first name is Luka but you can add a midle name if you want


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

it sounds like you're doing great, Sasha 

If you let him stick his beak in between the join of your 2 fingers, he might stick it in, and open it for you.

Make sure when you put the food in, it goes right at the back, otherwise he could inhale it.

By the way, an injection is a syringe (what you have) with a needle on the end, so you don't have an injection, you only have a syringe (or at least i hope so!) 

keep up the good work!


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Please info as we are still not sure how much food to give him. We feed him about evry 2 hours. If we give him more food then that would prolong the time between feeds?? with last one around 01.am and then basicly nothing till 07am. is that wrong or ? should we give him in the night also ? as he is asleep each time we check him.[/QUOTE]

Sasha, I would feed him about 2 cc of food and wait about 2 1/2 to 3 hours before feeding him again. You're going to need to increase that amount in the next day or two to about 3 cc because they grow very fast. I'll try tonight to check my records on the amounts we fed but I think by the time ours are a few days old they were getting about 5 - 7 cc at each feeding.

Also, if you are feeding him at 1 am and again at 7 am, I think that would be sufficient. All the babies we've raised were never fed during the night, say, from 10 pm until 6 or 7 am, unless they were especially frail and we have only done that with one or two. The key is always watch the crop to be sure it is going down and keep them warm.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

You are doing a great job with baby Luka. He's very lucky to have you as "parents". If you have some plain yogurt, you can mix a tiny amount of it with the gruel, which will help him digest and give extra vitamins. Also, here is a method of hand-feeding that I find the easiest:

http://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333/BabyFeeding

They very quickly learn to stick their beak into the hole and eat a lot easier that way, easier for you and for the baby. Great job thinking up the hot water bottles. It sounds like you're doing just fine.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

you said 2 cc can you please convert that into mililiters as i dont know exactly what a cc means. 

Ty.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

1 cc = 1 ml

1 cc is one cubic centimeter, which is the definition of 1 milliliter.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sasha19_81 said:


> you said 2 cc can you please convert that into mililiters as i dont know exactly what a cc means.
> 
> Ty.


CC's and Mililiters are the same


----------



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Not sure if anyone's posted these, but we found these links very helpful when we were raising a baby...

Feeding pigeons:balloon and syringe method
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/WLR/BabyPij&DuvFeedg.htm

Handfeeding help by Helen
http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Recipes/handfeedinghelp.htm


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

its 02.00 AM we have fed him again but i dont think his crop can hold more than 1 ml at a time. he has been ill fed for the first few days of his life so he looks more like a 2-3 days old then the real 4-5days he is.. Well thats it for now. read you in the morning again.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sasha19_81 said:


> its 02.00 AM we have fed him again but i dont think his crop can hold more than 1 ml at a time. he has been ill fed for the first few days of his life so he looks more like a 2-3 days old then the real 4-5days he is.. Well thats it for now. read you in the morning again.


LOL.......you will need a vacation by the time this baby gets grown!! 
Sounds like you are doing a wonderful job. Thanks for caring so much. Go get some sleep.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

he is ok. he aint breathing to fast. and he is sleeping.. now i can also.. night to all.. or should i say early morning.. 

02.30 am .....


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> he is ok. he aint breathing to fast. and he is sleeping.. now i can also.. night to all.. or should i say early morning..
> 
> 02.30 am .....


It's a good thing pigeons grow up fast so at least you know there won't be too many sleepless nights.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Alert yet agian. 

We have fed the litle one a few minutes ago. and now he is cramping and convulsing. 
He acts as he is gasping for air. opening his beak and raising his head and twisting it asaide. 
we are certain that we didnt put food into his lungs as we placed it with a syringe into his beak and he swalows on his own. 

But his crop is expanding and when we turn him around theres food and air in it. 
We dont know what to do. please help.. if there is something we can do.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sasha19_81 said:


> Alert yet agian.
> 
> We have fed the litle one a few minutes ago. and now he is cramping and convulsing.
> He acts as he is gasping for air. opening his beak and raising his head and twisting it asaide.
> ...


OH Lordy.........don't know what to tell you. I'll go see if I can fetch someone that's on line...............


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Is it normal that his crop has both air and food ???? 

Also it looks like air but it could be water.. but im 80% sure its air


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How much food did you give him? It sounds like he swallowed too much air. That often happens when they are hand fed.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you post a picture?


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If he is convulsing there is nothing you can do. Just make him comfortable. Sorry but from your description this baby is too far gone to be helped.

Reti


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

we gave him perhaps 0.5 ml.
But he is having a hard time breathing since yestrday evening but it comes after feeding. he is opening his beack and inhaling and after a few minutes he calmps down completly. Today as i said he started convulsing.. 

The food is a bit sticky could it be that while he is thrying to swalow he s2walows air _?? 

Can we burp him ??


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. will post a picture.. he has calmed down a bit it could be from exaustion but i dont now. can we burp him or clear the air in any way ?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think that's the problem...he is swallowing air when he eats. You can try gently massaging the crop to see if you can get him to burp it out. The worry with doing so is that you may accidentally move some of the food so he vomits and it gets in his lungs. I also think that his crop may be stretched out a bit and he may benefit by supporting it or holding it up some, with first aid wrap.
Tell me what you mean by convulsions?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm going to let my chickens out. I'll be back in 5 min.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It sounds like he aspirated or he has a ruptured crop. Gasping for air while feeding means something is irritating his air sacs, most likely food. You could massage his crop and maybe the air comes out, but this way you could also bring food back up.

Reti


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

pic will be in 2 mins. itl be better than to explain.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The term for swallowing air is: aerophagia. Go read this:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=201905

(give your browser some time to automatically scroll to the right post after it goes to the correct thread)

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

[img=http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5725/dsc02909nm4.jpg]



[img=http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5483/dsc02910in0.jpg]


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

For the moment, form the blanket into a nest bowl so that he stays mostly upright, keeps his head propped up a little better and his feet closer together.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Is that the position the baby is in all the time...laying on his side?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Reti said:


> It sounds like he aspirated or he has a ruptured crop. Gasping for air while feeding means something is irritating his air sacs, most likely food. You could massage his crop and maybe the air comes out, but this way you could also bring food back up.
> 
> Reti


Exactly, Reti. There certainly is risk especially for someone that has never done so before.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

ok..my husband is massaging him and he burbed it out, it looks bether now..but still he opens his beak constantly..every time he opens the beak theres a small "pop" sound coming out..could this be wather in his lungs?

Simon


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Yes he usualy lies like that. if you check the pictures from a day or 2 before you can see him there. 

He flops around and moves on his own. so we thought that would be the best so that he has space so he can make him self comfortable in any way he wants.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Btw on the pictures he is lying on his tummy. and only the head is to the side. 
And he is always on his tummy his head goes diferent directions.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hold his back up to your ear and listen for crackling sounds. Tell us what you hear.
You need to make a nest for him in the shape of a circle to support him and make him feel safe. I make one out of an old towel, rolling it up and then I tape the ends together so it won't fall apart. Make it so he fits in it without room to move around.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> *It sounds like he aspirated *or he has a ruptured crop. Gasping for air while feeding means something is irritating his air sacs, most likely food. You could massage his crop and maybe the air comes out, but this way you could also bring food back up.
> 
> Reti


That's was my first thought.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

will check for sounds.. tell me how to feed him? now we are giving him exa. 2ml in 10-15 insertions.. is that the problem ? should we just open his beak and start pumping it continuesly into him ? in one go ? omg i feel so helpless....


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know you feel helpless. You're doing the best you can and I know that too. I feel helpless because I'm so far away and can't just rush over to help you. I think everyone else following this thread must feel that way too. 

"now we are giving him exa. 2ml in 10-15 insertions.. is that the problem ?"
I don't understand what you mean by the above statement.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

No, don't pump it in continuously or he'll aspirate (breathe in food) for sure. They usually feed in short bursts.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

The inhection is 2 ml big. we use it to put food into his beak /throat . The dosage that we give im is 1ml-2ml depending on how much he resists feeding. so with the injectio we pump it into his beak in 10 rounds. each round is aprox 2/10 of 1 ml.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you mean you are feeding 2ml over a 15 minute time period?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

no. 2 ml over 1 minute period but we give him 10 times a litle bit of the food.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I understand. I think some one posted on this thread some links to feeding babies. I'm going to look back through and find the post number for you.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

i have seen the methods.. and have read them but in this case as he is gulping down air with the food.. should we push more food down ? 

This is the new nest


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ihttp://picasaweb.google.com/awrats3333/BabyFeedingt's

from post number 60 and posted by Maryjane.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> i have seen the methods.. and have read them but in this case as he is gulping down air with the food.. should we push more food down ?
> 
> This is the new nest


Yes. I think you may be feeding too slowly which allows the baby to gulp in air.
Is the baby weaker than the other night when you first posted? Also, what did you hear when you listened to the babies lbreathing?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Oh, the nest is good...could be a bit smaller. Are you able to keep him warm ?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

apsolutly nothing except the litle pop which i hear when he opens his beak.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

yes the fur is giving enough warmth to keep and i have heeted the whole room to the 40 celsius.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ok...so how is he doing right now?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

40 deg C? That's a bit on the warm side. I don't even run the incubator that warm. You could run it down to 30 deg C and be fine.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. he has calmed down again. he is still openinhg his beak but much less.. i think the problem is that he is hungry ?? He is turning around in the nest. should we make the nest deeper and smaller ?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Other comments...suggestions from other members?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

I have read and evrywhere they say 80-100 degrees farenheit and thats around 28- 40 celsius.

will turn it down then.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> Ok. he has calmed down again. he is still openinhg his beak but much less.. i think the problem is that he is hungry ?? He is turning around in the nest. should we make the nest deeper and smaller ?


Yes you could make it smaller. Make it cozy. Can you tell that he has grown since you've had him? Is his crop emptying?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

40 deg C = 104 deg F.

It just seems to me that they do better more towards the 90 deg F. If you've also got him wrapped up and a light on him, he might be warmer than the room temperature. I've seen them get sick under those circumstances.

Pidgey


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> 40 deg C = 104 deg F.
> 
> It just seems to me that they do better more towards the 90 deg F. If you've also got him wrapped up and a light on him, he might be warmer than the room temperature. I've seen them get sick under those circumstances.
> 
> Pidgey


Initally, the temperature was a concern that he was too hot. This is a good point, Pidgey and one worth re-visiting.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've seen them seem to gasp for breath in the incubator when I ran it too warm. That's why I finally opted for a lesser temperature.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

ok, we make it smaller..yes he has grown for about 2 cm, he has bigger wing's now and longer legs, and more fether on wings, the claw's are black now, they were pink when we first found him, the break is also blacker every da..he is somehow stronger then he used to be few days ago, he is traying to "escape" from the nest when he does that he really looks bigger..


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. i will post now 2 pictures of what i have made and please stay. i will also have a few questions to it. so stick around


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they do seem to thrash a lot at that age and it's always a little nerve-wracking until you get used to them being that way.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. i have used tape to stick a small kardboard piramid to the tip of the syringe. If i understand corectly this is somewhat what it should look when the baby is eating from his mother ? Can this be used in that way ? I know there are other things i can use but this is the only thing i have at home as its easter and all the stores are closed. 

Is it ok that the tip of the syringe sticks out inside the pyramid or should i cut the tip off off the syringe and then glue this pyramid to it? 



Also as this will probably be a lot messy. can i wash him in mild water ?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Looks like it would work just fine. If he continues to want to eat, then he's probably okay.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

How to wash him afterwards?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You sure are creative. Try it the first way and see how it works. Let us know.What ever works best for this baby and you.
You can wipe him off gently, with a warm damp cloth.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ok. i have to steel me nerves 1. and then do it. if he starts to convulse atleast now i know what to do.. 

Sigh.. I cant wait for Myrs baby food to come.. 

Write to you soon.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> Ok. i have to steel me nerves 1. and then do it. if he starts to convulse atleast now i know what to do..
> 
> Sigh.. I cant wait for Myrs baby food to come..
> 
> Write to you soon.


It is important to stay calm so you can think. He can feel it too.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

The new method didnt work. We used the normal one. 
I belive we found out what is the poping sound. it can be that some of the food entered his lungs. because when he opens his beak to inhale/exhale a small baloon comes out of his throat and it pops.. So this leeds to my conclusion that he has some food in his lungs which will explain the problems in breathing and overall exaustion. We have fed him and theres food in his crop but no air. But theres another thing which im concerned about. His crop looks strange. i cant describe it but in some places there is very litle food and then in another place there is a distint larger amount. We have decided to keep the bird warm. and let it be for now. as it is. we can not do anything else as we dont now what to do. I will keep you posted..


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

So he has air in the crop. 

Does the crop hang down...look streched out?
Do you have access to a vet that will give you antibotics?


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I looked at the pictures.........I think that you DO need to cut off the end of the syringe. The part that is sticking inside the piece of cardboard. The baby put IT"S beak inside the PARENTS beak............the way your syringe is, the part sticking out would have to go IN the babies beak, as the hole is to small for him to put his beak in. Does that make sense? 
If you cut the syringe off so that the babies beak can fit inside the hole, that might work.
I will tell you.......I've tried most of the various methods, except for sticking a tube down the throat, and for me personally, the easiest (and slowest  ) way to feed a baby is a few drop at a time inside the mouth and let them swallow. Slower and makes a bigger mess for sure, but it has always worked for me. 
Here is a video of me feeding two babies that I had to raise last year. Of course, these two are much older than your baby, but I fed them the same way from day one. I don't know how you are feeding, but I never even put the food at the back of the throat. I simply squirt a bit on their tongue and let them swallow. Maybe this will help or maybe this is what you are already doing. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJe6y8EYQRg


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

@Charis yes i have access to a vet. and we will do that. if nothing else perhaps they will take him.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

@Lovebirds yes that is exactly what i am doing only this guy is 5cm long. and thats about it. We will take him to the vet tomorow.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

I just paied a bit more attention. he is breathing trough his mouth and not his nose. 
that is probably the reason for the air in thew crop in the 1. place. 

can we in some way clear his nose. i have checked but on the outside its all ok. I dont know about inside.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, I just think it's simply amazing that you've gotten this baby this far and I believe he is going to be just fine. 
You would think after 6 years of being on this forum with all these lovely, caring people, I would have gotten used to what goes on here........but, it STILL amazes me that so much help can be given from people, to people, all over the world and that it saves lives. 
So, wishing you GOOD LUCK..........this is another lucky little baby.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sasha19_81 said:


> @Charis yes i have access to a vet. and we will do that. if nothing else perhaps they will take him.


The vet might put him to sleep. So if the vet offers to take him, ask directly if the vet intends to euthanize him.
I think the bird may have aspiration pneumonia. Let us know in the morning how he's doing.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

yea i will.. read you all in the morning


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The airway comes up from the air sacs and lungs and opens out on the bottom side of the throat just behind the tongue. In order for them to breath through their nose, the air continues from that opening up through a passage under the top beak called the "choanal slit". Those passages go into the sinuses and out through the nostrils.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

When he swalows sometimes a bit of food comes out his nose. 
Can we clear that part somehow ?


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

I have washed him carefully. and i dont know what to think. 
He has strength. he wants to stand on his feet but he keeps falling doen. And evry 2 seconds he opens his beack and you hear a smal "pop" his mouth is dry. i cant see his tounge. on the inside botom part of the beak there is nothing looking like a tounge (is the tounge there and when its still looks like a whole with the beak ?) and on the uper inside of his beak i can see a small slitwhich goes from the center of his nose backwards into the throat. There is nothing that blocks his mouth. i cant see furder down. Im feeling awfull. Im a full grown man crying for a small bird which i cant help. Kan anyone please .. PLEASE.. tell me what that poping sound might be ??


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I expect the tongue is still in there but you may not be able to recognize it. As you look in its mouth it lays on the inside bottom of the beak, is rather slender and long and if you look further back in his throat you'll see another hole/slit. That is what I call the air hole and the area we try to avoid getting food or water in.

Personally, I would try Renee's method of just putting about 1/4 teaspoon at the front of his mouth and letting it swallow. It may take awhile because you need to let that go down before putting any more in his mouth. After he swallows each time you can try a bit more.

I'm not going to gloss over the fact that getting food/water down the airway is extremely serious, because it is. But, we had a squab in that clicked all the time and it took about 2 months and a course or two of an antibiotic to get it to stop.


I meant to add too that the falling over could simply be because it is so young.

Try not to get so upset. I know how bad it hurts to feel so helpless but, trust me, you are doing a fine job under the circumstances.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you lady. 
Tell me a few things if you can. If there is food in the crop is the baby still hungry? Or should i consider him ok? 
We are curently feeding him with nestles baby rice. as for lack of proper food which is coming by mail thanks to myr. This rice is kinda sticky. Can you please give a few alternatives to the food that i could use instead of thice rice. 
Can i perhaps give him a bit of honney in watered youghurt? 
Any sugestions are much appreciated as id like to drop this food as blame evrything on not having proper food for the chick. 
Thank you.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

MacMilk: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe



1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food

1 hard-boiled egg yolk (16.6 grams)

1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)

¼ teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)

247.6 mg calcium carbonate

2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)

1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)

1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)

25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)



For birds days 1 to 3, digestive enzymes (see notes)



Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Allow the digestive enzymes to work on the food for ½ hour before using at room temperature. Warm it to 'wrist' temperature before feeding.



Note: because the replacer offers more calories and is more bioavailable than other diets, you may require less than you are used to feeding. Weigh the bird, calculate its energy requirements and feed accordingly.



MacMilk® Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2001©


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sasha, I'm not sure what to tell you because I have never used the baby rice cereal. If he has survived on it thus far and if that is all you have then I would continue to use it. I would definitely add the yogurt to the cereal and please don't let the mixture be too thick. Are you familiar with pancake mix - if so, try to make it the consistency of a thin, but not too watery, pancake batter. I'm not sure about the honey.

If there is food in the crop don't feed the baby until he digests what is in there. I've found it can sometimes take a couple of hours.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

myrpalom said:


> MacMilk: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How long does the mixture keep?It should be kept in the refridgerator..right? If they have no way to weigh the baby, how much do you recommend feeding?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Sasha, I'm not sure what to tell you because I have never used the baby rice cereal. If he has survived on it thus far and if that is all you have then I would continue to use it. I would definitely add the yogurt to the cereal and please don't let the mixture be too thick. Are you familiar with pancake mix - if so, try to make it the consistency of a thin, but not too watery, pancake batter. I'm not sure about the honey.
> 
> If there is food in the crop don't feed the baby until he digests what is in there. I've found it can sometimes take a couple of hours.


Natural honey has some antibiotic components to it so a drop in the formula would be a good idea. I still think you need to get antibiotics from the vet.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Charis said:


> How long does the mixture keep?It should be kept in the refridgerator..right? If they have no way to weigh the baby, how much do you recommend feeding?


I once copied this on fprc. Never used it myself, I always have foster parents available.
I think Cynthia will know, or maybe Reti?


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I want to add that formula should never be fed at "wrist temperature" because some people actually have more sensitivity or less sensitivity to heat. I know a story of a woman who had less sensitivity to heat and she burned the crop of her baby parrot, causing its death. The best way to check the temperature is with a digital thermometer meant for use with kids or food. You can probably get a good one from a drug store.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have never used this formula but I have used baby cereal and it worked fine.
I have heard the clicking/popping sound quite a few times and was always associated with respiratory disease. My opinion is the baby has aspirated and food in the lungs will develop into chemical pneumonitis and possibly infectious pneumonia. 

Reti


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Reti said:


> I have never used this formula but I have used baby cereal and it worked fine.
> I have heard the clicking/popping sound quite a few times and was always associated with respiratory disease. My opinion is the baby has aspirated and food in the lungs will develop into chemical pneumonitis and possibly infectious pneumonia.
> 
> Reti


I agree with you Reti. The baby needs antibotics.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

People i have some bad news.. 

The litle one is gulping air almost emediatly as I hold him in my hands. I belive he is hungry and that he knows that when i hold him he will get food. Posibly also as his airways on the beak are closed he is inhaling trough his mouth is causing him to gulp down the air into his crop. I have held him for maybe 30 seconds thrying to burp him and he has inhaled a verly large amount of air into his crop. I can not "burp" it out even after i thryed. As i masage his crop to burp him he inhales even more air. I can not do anything to stop this so i have decided not to hold him any more. If he survives the night without food I will take him to the vet emediatly in the morning. I can not put me self up to holding him as each time i do he gets worse. I feel awfull. I thank you all for the woderfull help and advice you have given me but i can not do this any more. I kinda feel that i have let down me self you and most important "Luka". 
This is the end for me . and i will read you tomorow with the results of his night or the results of the vets assistance.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Can you see food in his nostrils?


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

Hey..It's Simon sasha's wife..
there is no food in his nostrils, we don't see any..but his crop is bigger every time he gasps for air, it looks like a large skinned balon under his beak, and it's empty..
He is trying to move around..but gets out of energy very quick then he just stops and all he does is opening his beak and the 
"pop" sound is all we hear..


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are there air pockets on his back as well?


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

yes they are  
Not good isn't it?

Why is there nobody in Croatia like you people on this forum to help as in person..damn and we have so many birds in our country ..


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It's still fixable. Is the crop tight or is there slack to it...like a balloon that is loosing air?


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

It's not competley filled, theres still room for more.

What can we do, can we give him food or shuld we wait till morning

What can happen if we don't feed him till morning


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If you have applesauce or stewed apples, I would give him some of that if it is with out sugar.
If you have some first aid wrap, wrap it under his crop to support it and move it up just a little. To do this, you will put the first aid wrap under the crop to lift and under the wings and tie on the back. This needs to be loose so as to not constrict his breathing. The best kind of wrap is the one that sticks to itself but not the bird. If you don't have first aid wrap you may need to improvise with what ever you have. Remember...support the crop but not contrict the breathing.


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

Don't have anything but normal apple..anything else that we can give him, or we just wait till morning when we can go to a vet?

we try this wrap around.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

A little plain yogurt, not cold.


----------



## nikku-chan (Jan 18, 2008)

Maybe because his nose is blocked, he is swallowing air when he tries to inhale, instead of inhaling it into his lungs?

Goodluck. Make sure you tell your vet everything, and ask for antibiotics because you think he has pneumonia.

Some vets don't even consider doing everything they can because it is just a pigeon, so make sure you tell him you want him to do EVERYTHING he can for the baby.

You're doing really well. 
Good luck. x


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I haven't been able to follow this thread due to internet problems.....I am sure sorry he is having such a hard time, as well as both of you.  All you can do is try your best, and that is what you are doing. Something else may be wrong with him that we don't know about. 

I had seen babies go from looking very bad to looking great, almost overnight. Also the other way around; looking just fine and then bad the next day. It is such a delicate and difficult process of feeding a new baby. Even people who do it all the time have problems and difficulties, and lose babies. Please try not to feel bad or guilty; you have done so much for him and at least he is warm and safe right now. I know it is very scary dealing with this.

Hopefully he will be better in the morning. Please keep us updated and try to get some sleep.


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

Thank you all for helping..
We go to the vet in the morning we did everything we could, he has a first aid wrap, he is warm, in a dark quite place. I gave him some joghurt but it came on his nostrils so I stopped.

We keep you updated, good night, is't 1:30 AM, we have to get some sleep..


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if he's trying to eat every time you pick him up then that would explain why he's sucking down air--that can only happen if he's trying to swallow. I don't usually feed little pigeons all through the night. I feed them last at about 10:00 PM and then not again until 6:00 AM in the morning.

Pidgey


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Tonight somewhere around 5-7 Am "luka" has drawn his last breath. 
We belive he died peacefully as he looks relaxed(not in the way legs are limp more like he is comfortable) That isit for now. i will write again once i find more words which to write.


----------



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sasha19_81 said:


> Tonight somewhere around 5-7 Am "luka" has drawn his last breath.
> We belive he died peacefully as he looks relaxed(not in the way legs are limp more like he is comfortable) That isit for now. i will write again once i find more words which to write.


Oh, I'm so sorry. Everyone will be very sad when they are start logging on and find out. Please remember that you did everything you could have done. There was abviously something terribly wrong with little Luka and the best you could have done is what you did. Give him a warm place and lots of love until the end. He could have died a much more tragic and agonizing death. I'm sure I speak for all involved when I say thank you for trying and giving little Luka a shot at life. There are so many that would have just left him when they found him and that would have been the end.


----------



## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

I am sooooo sorry Sasha - I've followed this thread since the beginning; saying prayers and being hopeful for little Luka. You did everything that could be done. My heart goes out to you and your wife. I'm sure Luka will be with you in your hearts for a long time to come.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am very sorry to read the sad news.

Reti.


----------



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I am so sorry Luka passed away, Sasha. 
I know you and your wife loved him dearly and that you would have done wathever is in your power to save him. I could hear and feel your distress yesterday when we spoke. You did ALL you could.
Luka did not live for nothing, somebody loved him and cared for him.
Please don't leave the forum. You say there are many pigeons in Croatia.
In honour and remembrance of Luka, keep an eye on them in case you have to help another needy pigeon. One day, another Luka will need you, survive and be your pride and joy.
My heart goes to you and your wife.
Tell my godshild I cried over him before you bury him.
Myriam


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I am truly sorry. I admire you both so much so all you did...the loving care,finding this forum,the sleepless nights...
I agree with Myriam that you should stay with the forum and learn. After what we have been through together, you feel like family. Now I'm going to have my cry for little Luka.


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am so terribly sad to read little Luka passed away. Sasha, you and your wife did so much to help this baby survive. Please know that those of us on the forum appreciate so much what you did to try to help him survive. It is always so very hard to lose one, doesn't matter how old it is or how long you may have had it - it still hurts.


----------



## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sasha and Simon...

You gave him a chance, as well as love and comfort...and you came to the right place to try to give him a chance at life. You had the most difficult of situations....it is very hard to pull such a young baby through danger. My heart goes out to you both, I am so sorry and very sad to hear of his passing.

If it is any condolence to you, you can at least know that he is in a better place now, at peace....and no longer needs to struggle.

I also hope you will stick around the forum.


----------



## Sasha19_81 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you all for your kind words.. 
I will remain here.. atleast for some time. Im sorry but i still dont have any words .. I feel like there was always one more thing i coulda thryed but i didnt. I know i did all i could but... 

A hell, il write to you in a few days again. 

I love my animals a lot and my heart goes to them whole. i just hate beeing helpless.. Thats it.. read you in a few days.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm so sorry for you two. It's very difficult to raise a pigeon chick from when they're that young. When Lin and I first started rehabbing pigeons, we got a young one in that had fallen from the nest and something like this happened. No matter what we did, he just got worse and we felt horrible. When he finally passed away, we blamed ourselves as most folks do. Today, many years later with all the more stuff that we know, I still don't know if we could have saved him.

Pidgey


----------



## Simon_cro (Mar 23, 2008)

Thank you all for your kind words. We learned so much in this last days, things we didn't know about pigeons..we see them every day but don't have contact with them and then we found the little one, and I could not just leave him at the constuction site, the workers wouldn't pay attention on the little nest..so we tried and failed ..but when ever I find a bird I'll do everything to save it..

I'll stick around on the forum and keep learning, I never met such nice people like you, we are on different continents but share the same love for animals 

Love you all..


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm very sorry that little Luka did not make it. Thank God he had you both to care for and love him, and keep him safe and warm in his few days with us here on Earth. Please do stick around, even just to read what's going on with other pigeons, and drop us a hello now and then. Keep in mind the golden rule of pigeons.....Once one has found you, more will follow!!! Please have peace in knowing you did ALL that you possibly could for Luka. I agree with Renee that there was probably something wrong with him that you could not see. Now he is at peace and must wish the same for you.


----------

