# Tail Feathers



## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hello. I found a pigeon in the park. Her tail feathers were completely plucked and she can't fly. I took her to the vet and the vet was optimistic that she was going to recover. 

How long does it take for the tail feathers to grow back? Is there anything I can do to make her more comfortable? She looks like she's in pain. She is eating a lot though, so I am optimistic.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk!

The feathers should grow back in about 6 weeks. Thank you for rescuing this pigeon!

What makes you think the bird might be in pain? If we know a bit more, we can probably offer some helpful advice. Any chance of you posting a picture or two of the bird?

Terry


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Pigeon with Missing Tail Feathers in Brooklyn*

Hi, Terry.

Thank you for answering my post so quickly! I posted a picture below. It's hard to tell from the angle that all of her tail feathers are gone. 

I'm just guessing that the pigeon is in pain. She is having so much trouble walking and moving and she cannot fly. She stands on one leg most of the time. When she does walk, she frequently topples over. She is able to pick herself back up, but it takes a little while. It really breaks my heart to watch her struggle to move.

Someone had a theory that she got hit by a vehicle. 

Twice today, she was sitting in her bird seed dish. What do you make of that? She also burried her head in some shreaded paper that I added to the laundry basket cage. I thought she might be trying to suffocate herself, so I removed most of the paper.

I took her to a wildlife vet the night I found her. The vet said that she did not have any bleeding, had diarrhea, was starving, and could not perch. The vet said that she did not have trich. The vet thought she would live if we tried to take care of her. 

She has been eating voraciously and she seems to be improving a very little bit since I found her on Saturday, August 4. However, she puffs up a lot and I'm not sure if she's puffing because she is scared or if that's a symptom of an illness. I brought her into my backyard today and she flexed her wings and flapped them a little. 

She is terrified of me. I guess that's a sign that she's ok. I try not to handle her very much, but there are times when she falls when I cannot resist helping her get up. 

She's a little dirty (as you can see from the picture). I tried bathing her in 1/2 inch of water, but she did not like it and I stopped within one minute! My friend thinks he saw a pigeon louse on her. I haven't seen any yet. Any advice on how to bathe her? Should I just hold off for a while until she has more strength and is used to me? 

Thank you very much for her help. I've never cared for a pigeon before. I feed them in the park almost everyday, but I'm clueless in this situation. I've only had her in my care for three days and I'm already attached to her. I just hope she survives.

Best, Enid


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Enid,



If you could post some images showing her face more closely, and from the side and front...probably this is a sub adult or very young adult.


Also, please let us know what the poops look like...color, consistance, size, number over so many hours...if you keep her on a white Towell, it will be easy to do this.


Likely this Pigeon was in some compromise to have been caught by a Dog or Cat to have lost those Tail Feathers.

A Healthy Bird, if someone grabs for them and only gets the Tail, a healthy Pigeon will let go of their Tail Feathers and fly off, and soon be flying just as well as if their Tail were still there.


A sick Pigeon, or one who has for whatever reason been starving, will also let go of their Tail Feathers of course, but in their case, they either have been a grounded Bird, who was not flying already, when caught and escapeing, or, at any rate, this Pigeon needs to be looked at more closely than your Vet had done.

see if you can find any little scabs or punctures of signs of tiny Bits on her skin where her Tail used to be, as well as on both sides of her Wings and on her sides and so on...these can be hard to find...so look closely, moving the Feathers to be able to see the skin in these areas.


Let us know also if she seems to have a 'sharp' Keel - being her lower front area, or, if it feels full muscled there...likely it is 'sharp' showing emaciation.


Glad she is eating well...that is very good...


...and for now, if you could, for her drinking water, go ahead and add a pinch os regular Table Salt, and one of Sugar to her Water Bowl and stirr so it dissolves, and do that again a few times over the next day or two...


Keep her out of any air conditioning or cool drafts...



Best wishes!


She looks very sweet...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Hi Enid and welcome to Pigeon-Talk. 
That is a little sad bird  right now, but hopefully she'll pick up. Have you gone to the resources page and found the posts on how to save a pigeon's life. She'll need heat (unless you think she's had head trauma) and quiet. As she was starving, it will take some time to get her back and going again. Slow and steady. She's probably not in pain as much as she just doesn't have enough energy to function well right now. You might want to offer her a quiet corner where she can sleep. 
I'm sure others will be on soon to help.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Enid, thanks for dining and otherwise looking out for your urban ferals, they 
need all the support they can get! Do you happen to notice any pungent odors to the droppings of this rescue? Could you also post some pictures of this bird's droppings??? Are the feathers there but simply shorter than what you see in the average adult? Sometimes a dehydrated bird can have balance issues so best to make sure this bird gets the IRS-International Rehydrating Solution-to ensure that there had
not been a period of depravation before you picked him up as a rescue. You 
are keeping him inside?? I may have missed that.

Here's a link to the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

And a link to Saving the life of a dove or pigeon:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8822

And also a link to providing heat to an orphaned bird:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13601

I think that you are correct that the bird does not seem to feel well.
Let's see if we can figure out what that discomfort is and fix it. By any 
chance is the wildlife vet that you took this feral to a professional at Animal
General?? Regardless, if we can zero in on the issues here, no doubt this
bird will get what it needs to feel better.

fp


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy*

Hi, everyone.

Thank you so much for your kindness! Since I last wrote, Daisy took a turn for the worse and I thought he was going to die. Within a few hours of taking the photo that I posted, Daisy could no longer stand up. He was falling forward and getting himself into scary, contorted positions. 

So I brought him to a Rita at the Wild Bird Fund/Animal General. (He had seen a vet at the University of Pennsylvania the first night that I found him.) Rita spent two hours diagnosing him and teaching me how to care for him. I felt so lucky to find her and so happy that she was willing to spend so much time with us.

Rita thinks that Daisy was hit by something. He has a hairline fracture in his leg and is in a cast. She took an x-ray and everything except the fracture looked fine. Rita tested his droppings and he was fine. 

Rita is concerned because Daisy has poor beak-eye coordination. She thought it could be a symptom of PMV. But that was the only sympton she noticed. She told me to keep an eye out for stargazing and other things.

Since I brought him to the Wild Bird Fund three days ago, there have been a few developments. Daisy holds his head a little bit sideways when he pecks for seeds. (I'll try to get a picture of this tomorrow.) He is also so sleepy and listless, except when he is eating. He still has a terrific appetite. He's not afraid of me anymore and he's fallen asleep in my arms after eating a few times. He is putting pressure on his good leg, though not fully standing yet. 

What do you think about the beak-eye problem? And the tendency to hold his head a little sideways? (He doesn't hold it straight backwards, just a little sideways.) Do you think that will take care of itself on its own?

I'll take more pictures tomorrow. Thank you for your help.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, Enid, and for taking such good care of Daisy! If the coordination problem is due to trauma, it may or may not self resolve with time .. kind of the same story if Daisy has PMV. I have permanent pets that have neuro type problems. Some I know were caused by PMV, others by trauma, and others .. just don't have a clue. The good news is that most can and do learn how to eat and drink on their own just fine. These types of birds do need a little extra watching and a little extra care (deep bowls and such), but mine seem to be happy and otherwise healthy birds.

Please keep us posted. I'll look forward to the new pictures.

Terry


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy George Vivian Pictures!*

Hi, everyone.

Here are some pictures of Daisy that I took today:





































xo, enid


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,



Looks like you are doing a wonderful job there for him...


What do the poops look like?

And, how many in 24 hours?




And, does he drink on his own nicely?


If they are for whatever reason dehydrated, it can throw everything off, co-ordination included.

some Birds for w3hatever reason will not in fact be drinking enough and can become or remain dehydrated to serious degrees which will effect their equilibrium and co-ordinations.

Getting 'hit' can bruise all sorts of things, effect nerves, and take time to heal...months sometimes...


I see you have him propped up there, which is nice...

How sweet..!


Good luck...!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

She is a lovely little bird and you are taking great care of her.
I hope she will recover soon.

Reti


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy Update -- Questions About Leaning*

Hi, everyone.

I posted some photos of Daisy.

As you may have noticed in the second photo from the top, Daisy's head tends to tilt to the right. When he eats, he can't peck straight. What do you think is causing him to do that? His beak-eye coordination remains poor. He sleeps a lot and seems fairly listless. (He isn't stargazing and his droppings are normal -- two PMV symptoms my vet told me to look out for.)

I think that he is making some progress though. He can't stand on his own, but he will put pressure on his legs when I support him with my hands or with a towel. (If I don't support him, he will tip forward.) His appetite is still very good. Once in a while, he will flap his wings like a squeaker. 

He's so adorable. I hope that he pulls through. He seems more comfortable in his cat carrier now that I've switched from a paper towel liner to real cotton towels. The paper towels used to slip when he moved around. 

I had such a scare today though. I was giving him his medicine (to prevent a yeast infection -- he doesn't have a yeast infection yet) through a dropper. I thought that I may have pulled the dropper out too fast and dripped medicine down his windpipe. I was so scared that he would drown. Afterwards, he was opening and closing his mouth in a funny way that I haven't seen him do before. But, it's now three or four hours later and when I checked on him, he was asleep. He woke up and wasn't doing anything funny with his mouth. Whew! Maybe I poked him in his esophagus or something or maybe he tasted that yucky stuff. Anyway, I can't wait to be done with the dropper -- it always scares me. 

As always, thank you so much for your insight and help.

xo, enid


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,



I did not quite get the Leg issue earlier...

This can result from injury to their lower Back, or from Kidney inflamation or swelling.

Illness or contusion effecting the Kidneys can efect the Sciatic Nerves making the Legs weak or inoperable or 'stiff' or any combination of the above.


Please let us know a careful description of the poops - their consistancy, color, size and so on.


Contusion from accident or collision or predation can effect their Nerves and co-ordinations also, making for off-center positions, head angles and so on.

These can take days, weeks or months to heal.

Are his vent Feathers showing any staining or poops sticking to them?


Are the Thumbs in their normal attitude or curled 
under'?



Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy*

Hi, everyone.

Daisy had a voracious appetite this afternoon and was flapping his wings and kicking at me a little. He still can't stand on his own, but I'm hoping that his new rebelous attitude is a sign that he is getting stronger. 

His droppings are usually moist and green with a little white if he's been eating bird seed. They aren't runny. If I've been feeding him a lot of puppy chow, then his droppings are the color of puppy chow. I'm not sure how many a day -- it seems like it could be twenty or more. (He had green diarrhea when I found him, but that went away in 36 hours.) His vet says that his droppings are perfect. 

He doesn't eat or drink on his own. I have to hold him up over his seed or feed him Puppy Chow with my fingers. He drinks a little bit of water when he's eating the seed. (When I first found him and he was able to stand up, he was eating on his own.)

The vent feathers have a tiny bit of droppings on the tips of them. I tried to get them off today when I was cleaning off his cast, but he was protesting so much that I gave up. I will try again tomorrow. 

His feet are sometimes curled and sometimes not. 

Well, you've made me optimistic that maybe his head leaning and problems with his legs will get better over time! 

There is a new problem, maybe. When I feed him, I gently hold him up from his chest, so that he can sort of stand up and get used to using his legs again. (If I let go, he'd fall.) Sometimes I prop him up on a towel, but that doesn't usually work as well. At times when I'm holding him, he takes his beak and it sems like he is rubbing his crop. Do you think that it's a sign that there is something irritating his crop? Or do you think it's a sign that he doesn't like me holding him? Or do you think he's doing that because he wants me to finger feed him the Puppy Chow? 

Thank you again for all of your insight and help! 


Enid
Brooklyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,



I have two similar ones presently, at least in so far as they had or have Leg issues.


Now, you mention a 'cast'? I do not understand...has he a Broken Leg which has a splint on it? Or...?



Puppy chow is not good, at least as far as my research is concerned, though others feel differently.

However, if you can get actual 'Pigeon Mix' ( and if Brooklyn is in east Coast U.S., there should be many sources near you since there are many PIgeon Fanciers and Racers in your area whom suppliers will cater to) ...


The Pigeon Mix will have a variety of dried whole Peas, some White Safflower, and other smaller Seeds.


If it was me, I would also get a package of 'Goji Berrys' at any Health Food store, and these when cut into halves or thirds with scissors, along with the whole dried Peas, can be 'Seed Popped' into his Beak...for which you will do best to hold him in a certain way.


This being the 'Burrito Bird' wrap...where, one takes a small hand towell or similar soft Cloth, and gently wraps the Pigeon, so the top of the gentle wrap is about at their neck loosely, but over their shoulders definitely, and so that much of the cloth is extending past their Tail, just wrapping it around them in a spiral sort of...and one spigots them that way between one's thighs as one sits...so the Bird is more or less vertical...and they are being held then by the Cloth which is at their Tail and lower, so there is no actual pressure against them.


This then leaves your hands free.

Gently opening his Beak, you can put into his far inside Mouth, a whole Pea, or, a half a Goji Berry, or even four or five whole smaller Seeds, and let his Beak go, and he will swallow.

Not all these at once of course, but one or the other of these options per each Beak opening time.


After a few rounds of this, over a few days, if he HAD been resisting with keeping his Beak clamped shut, he will almost certainly ease up with that so he will let you open it without resisting so much.


Anyway, in merely a few minutes, one can 'pop' twenty five or thirty Seeds in to them in so many opening-inserting, letting him close, opening, inserting...and so on, and it is a good way to get real 'solid' and apprpriate food into them for them to digest and feel good about.


Are there any hints of predation on his back or sides or under Wings? Any little scabe or scrapes or scratches or anyting?


Missing Tails usually are something which has occurred from a Cat or Dog catching them, and the Pigeon loosing and letting go the Tail Feathers to get away...


Anyway, such a situation might have bruised his Spine and Back and even his Kidneys, or, in addition, he may have some infection which is effecting his Kidneys...

Or, he may simply have sprained his Legs in the altercation, and does not have any Kidney involvement or Sciatic Nerve troubles.


Those are some thoughts anyway...


Actually, I think this is most likely a youngish Hen...so, a 'she' as it were...





Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy*

Hi, Phil and other pigeon folk.

Thank you again for your help! 

Daisy has a hairline fracture in one of his legs, so the vet put him in a splint/cast. He's started putting a little pressure on the leg, so I think that it's healing. 

I bought him some pigeon mix and he's really taken to it. He doesn't have physical trouble eating, but he doesn't seem to eat unless I'm there with him. 

He seems so sleepy and sad. He has such poor beak eye coordination and things seem to be getting worse. When I gave him some water to drink, he turned his head upside down and got his whole face and top of head wet. His reaction time was slow. He just puffed himself up while I wiped him off. Is there a risk that he could accidentally drown himself? I'm afraid to put water in his cage pulled himself into the shallow lid of water that I left. 

He slept on my belly for a few hours today. He's so sweet. 

The vet says he's a male. When I named him "Daisy" I thought that he was a little hen. The name stuck.

He doesn't have any bleeding or marks that would indicate that he lost his tail feathers in an attack.

I've got an appointment with the vet on Saturday.

Thank you again for all of your help. This is the first time that I've rescued a pigeon and I don't know what I'd do without insight from more experienced rescuers. 

Enid


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



Well...whatever the trauama was ( or is, if there is a disease process, ) there do seem to be some Neurological compromises going on.

Or, possibly, the head and neck issues are not Neurological, but instead have to do with strained muscles.

The Legs might be 'merely' strained also ( serious enough ) as well as the one Leg having the green fracture...so...the Leg issue might not be from any Nerve involvement in any other sense than that they are weak and painful from a strain or over-strain.

Or could be both Strains and Nerve impairments...


Missing Tails do not usually happen by themselves, so, she may have been caught by a larger Dog, stepped on however much, bruised and squished and so on, and a mouth full of Tail was left behind as she somehow wriggled out and flew off full of adrenalin, to have failing Legs and sore Neck and possibly lower Back injury and whatever else soon setting in.


When you let her drink, keep your finger tips on her Beak so she is steady'd and can not over dunk her face and head.

She will soon get used to you doing this, and she will not mind.

Making their Water 'tepid' is sometimes welcome for the convelesent Pigeon to drink...especially if they are 'thin'.

You can in fact guide her Beak into the Water that way, and also steady it as she drinks, so she does not dip in too far.

They can aspirate Water ( get Water into their Trachia and Lungs, which can be fatal, especially for a frail Pigeon ) when impaired co-ordination issues are effecting them...so yes, do be careful with that.


Strained muscles can take a week or two weeks to clear most of the way, maybe sooner...pulled tendons, longer...maybe three weeks...

Green fractures, ten days or twelve...if JUST that...but often there is sprain or strain also when a Bone is cracked or broken.


So all on all, I would expect a few weeks anyway...for her gradual improvements in these matters...and then on from there.


Pigeons are very 'social', and some are more social than others.


If she feels trusting and accepting of you, and clearly she does...she would prefer you 'eat' with her, and for one thing then, she feels safer that way since four Eyes are better than 'two' when it comes to the vulnerability or distraction of eating, in case who knows what preditor might show up...as well as just that she would like your company anyway for the occasions.


You can 'peck' the seeds with her, useing your crook'd index finger...and narrate all you like about whatever you like...and of course offer her lots of compliments of all sorts, on how nicely she is doing, and how pleased you are with her company, and her progress and so on.

It is not lost on them...when one does so.


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Thanks!*

Hi, Phil et al. 

Thank you for your suggestion to guide Daisy's beak into the water and to peck the seeds with my fingers. Both tips worked! Horaay! 

Daisy's appetite was ravenous again today. He was slowly twisting his neck around and looking down and up. Is neck twisting a symptom for anything other than PMV? He doesn't have the diarrhea that seems to accompany PMV. He always has a healthy appetite (though it takes hours to feed him because he seems to lose attention or sometimes he forgets to open his beak to let in seeds). 

Thanks again for your help. 

enid
brooklyn


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Neck twisting could indicate (aside from PMV) paratyphoid, meningitis, encephalitis, head trauma, calcium deficiency. That's all I can think off at this hour.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 


As Reti mentioned, and far as know too...they can get twisty-heads from quite a few things.

PPMV can make for many differing presentations, and some of the suspected PPMV Pigeons I have gotten in at times, ate splendidly on their own form the get-go, and made perfect firm poops and never showed any diahrea or Watery Urates...but had the Head twisting and Star-Gazing and other posture things going on.

Injury from blunt or other physical trauma, also...can do it's versions.

Possibly there are at least several Viruses which can effect their Kidneys and Liver...as well as effecting various of their Neurological functions...as can various Bacteria or other micro-organisms...and it is very hard to determine what is doing it to them sometimes.


Good supportive care, the best nutrition we can provide, comfort, satefy, gentleness, and time, are the best we can do for them...whether or not we have a fairly probable diagnosis and or are providing medicines additionally.


Adult Birds who are compromised form illness are also likely to get caught by a Dog or Cat, so anytime I get one in showing signs of predation, I can usually expect them to have also been ill some time already before they were injured in a predation situation.


Sleep beconds, insistantly..!


Nighty night...


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Matted feathers*

Hi, everyone.

Thanks again for your help. I have another question. Daisy can't stand up. So he's been laying on his belly most of the time. Consequently, his feathers are getting matted down. Right now they're not too bad, but I'm worried they'll get worse over time. Do you have any thoughts about how to keep them from getting matted down?

Best, 

Enid
Brooklyn


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Baytril*

Hi, everyone. 

Daisy took a turn for the worse last night and I took him back to the Wild Bird Fund today. His bird specialist said that he is doing very poorly. (Though he's gained .04 kilograms and his fractured leg healed!) She took a blood sample and tested his droppings. He has an infection, Coccidiosis, and a virus (possibly PMV, though not sure). No yeast (I've been giving him Nystatin). He's listless and barely moves. And even though he was ravenous last night, his digestion seemed to stop and his crop is still full even though he hasn't eaten today.

Anyway, she's not sure if he'll make it for more than a few days -- she thinks he'll probably die before the end of the week. Nevertheless, we're continuing to try and I'm going to do my best. She gave me Baytril and Carbo Vegtalis. I'm injecting .15 ml. of the Baytil twice a day. I'm giving him the Carbo Vegetalis every 30 minutes. And I've got Daisy on a heating pad.

Anyway, please cross your fingers for Daisy. And if you have any inspirational stories of near-death pigeons that you rescued, I would love to hear them.

Enid
Brooklyn


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Enid
I hope and pray for the best for Daisy.
PMV is a nasty virus, but not always lethal.
My pet pigeon Toto, now 15 years old, recovered from it.
As many others did in my pigeon rescue center (I had a PMV outbreak in 1998)
I gave them high doses of vitamins to have strenght to fight the virus.
Myriam


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear the bird took a turn for the worse.
My Louis seemed to have no chance when found. He was all twisted and sleeping for two weeks, my vet recommended to put him down. I am glad I didn't follow his advise. I was tubing him three times a day, kept him in a box with a heating pad set on low and gave Baytril. When he came out of his coma he was able to stand straight for a few seconds. About two months later he was completely recovered.
I received three other birds from the same flock, both had a slow crop, vomiting and lethargy. I gave them injectable antibiotic (Fortaz) and Reglan, fluids and small feedings and water every few hours around the clock. Two of them made it.
Don't give up on your little sweety. Keep him warm, quiet and well hydrated and pray for the best.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Enid

I will certainly keep Daisy in my thoughts and prayers. I wish I could pinpoint some of the birds we have rehabbed that were near death and recovered but, to tell the truth, there have been many. Also, we have had many that didn't make it but you learn to take one day at a time and do the best you can with all of them.

The Baytril will certainly help with the infection but she also needs medication for the coccidiosis. Coccidiosis can make a bird feel very bad but usually when treated get well quickly. We use a product called Sulmet that is put in the drinking water. While you are at it I would also get a wormer, something like Pyrantel, because 9 out of 10 birds that are sick have worms.

Wishing you the very best.


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, everyone.

Thank you so much for your advice and stories. 

Reti, your Louis's former condition sounds so much like Daisy. It is as though he's in a coma -- he's so sleepy. I'm crossing my fingers that he comes around just like your Louis did. Something seems to be working; I'm not sure if it's the Carbo Veg or the Baytril. I fed Daisy a few moments ago (his appetite is still good) and he flapped his wings a little bit for the first time since Thursday. He also seems a little more alert even though he spends most of his time with his eyes closed. 

Myriam, it's terrific to hear about Toto!! How wonderful that he is still alive after PMV fifteen years later. 

Lady Tarheel, Daisy does have worms. I think that his care giver at the Wild Bird Fund wanted to wait a few days before treating him for that because he is still such a young bird and she thinks the Baytril is very strong for him and didn't want him to be on too much medication at once. What do you think? 

Below are a few pictures I took today. I've been experimenting with placing him different positions because he can't move himself and I'm not sure how comfortable he is. I tried putting him in a donut shaped towel, but it seemed like it bothered his weak legs. So now he is sleeping prostrate with his chest very slightly elevated from the rest of his body. He seems to like being held with his legs hanging down the best (the position I hold him in when he's eating) but my hands get tired! 

xo, enid


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He looks so sweet, all tucked in.
I hope and pray he'll pull through.
Dewormers can be hard on babies, so I guess it is a good idea to defer them as long as the worms aren't the cause of his poor condition.
Keep on doing what you're doing as it sems to be helping.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for taking such good care of this bird.

If the youngster is fragile an extra dose of probiotics/kefir will help balance out to populate the good intestinal flora, allow the bird to better assimilate his food and help with any coccidiosis issues also. A drop of colloidal silver down the throat will also help with any bad bacteria and infection. You get an improved immune state without negative effects.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Enid

Granted, right now Daisy doesn't look real good but often when they feel bad they close their eyes and just rest. We recently had one that looked just like that and it took several days for it to come around. I'm glad she is on Baytril.

You can give her a few more days without giving her a wormer. Did the wildlife folks say how badly infested she was? They can tell a lot from the stool specimen. If she had a lot, it might be worth it to give her a mild wormer anyhow.


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Worms*

Hi, everyone.

I think that Daisy isn't too badly infested with worms because the vet didn't give me anything for them the first time I brought him in (when he was stronger). 

I brought Daisy to work today and settled him into a box in my office on a heating pad and towels. It's nice to work in an environment where I can do this and people are interested and supportive.

I can't tell you how much all of your input means to me. What a kind, lovely community! This weekend, my boyfriend and I were half jokingly discussing the lessons we're learning from this sometimes emotionally draining experience. In all seriousness though, I really am learning how many caring people there are in the world. No matter what happens to Daisy, it's so nice to know that you're out there caring for little birds like him. 

xo, enid


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hi Enid,

While I cannot advise on medical issues with any degree of exertise, I know our knowledgeable members are doing their best.

We are all keeping a watch and hoping for the best with Daisy! 

He(she?) is a real cutie! 

Squeaks and I are sending healing thoughts, love, hugs and scritches for a full recovery!

Thank you for keeping us updated!

Shi & Squeaks


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

enid said:


> Hi, everyone.
> 
> I think that Daisy isn't too badly infested with worms because the vet didn't give me anything for them the first time I brought him in (when he was stronger).
> 
> ...


Enid, thanks for the info about the worms. If you get a chance, you could ask the vet about this just to be on the safe side. I have a real "thing" about worms and thoroughly detest the little devils because they can make pigeons very sick.

Sure is nice that you work where you can take Daisy with you. 

I hope she is feeling heaps stronger soon. Also, you fit in that "caring" category too!


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Daisy*

Hi, everyone.

Daisy is a boy with a girl's name! We thought he was a female when we found him. When our second vet told us differently, it was too late. The name stuck. He really is like a little flower.


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, join other members who have/had male pijies with girls names: Gertrude (member: Alvin) and ELLE (member: Alaska) are two that come to quick mind!

Besides, is the Vet ABSOLUTELY sure? Sometimes they fool ya!  

Nevertheless, Daisy is very fortunate to have such a caring human!  

Shi & Squeaks

P.S. Just so that when he gets older, he doesn't decide to be a Snap Dragon at times!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Enid, 

I'm sorry to hear that Daisy took a turn for the worse, but this bird is in some
very caring peoples' care and has a good chance at getting over the 'hump'
w/this. They do remarkably well and seem to know that folks are doing their
best to help them. If things are very touch and go, it makes sense that the
vet may not want to treat immediately w/yet another medication. Did the
vet mention what kind of worm Daisy is infected with? I would think that if
you are able to get a hold of some natural products, you could treat for the
worms in this way as it won't stress the bird in terms of medicine overload.
Might even make the bird feel better. Here's a link to a post on the 
topic of worming birds w/Chapparel tea from Treesa Gray:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=181619&postcount=53

I'd keep a close eye on the worm situation especially w/other issues taxing
the birds as well. The eggs will not always show up in fecal floats rendering
the lab work non-conclusive for worm infestations. So, even after Daisy has
recuperated from his current crisis, it is recommended by many to treat
at regular intervals w/follow ups to get the complete life cycle of the worm.

From this link:

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/bu...html#Parasitic

Authored by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.,:

*"I recommend that birds be periodically dewormed, at least once or twice, during routine first examination, with pyrantel pamoate, even if fecal parasite examinations are negative. This is because the gastrointestinal tract transit time is so fast in birds that worm eggs do not concentrate in the fecals (as they do in dogs and cats), and it is not only possible, but likely, to miss ascarids on a fecal exam.I have performed countless second opinions on small birds with GI problems that have had negative tests for worms, yet, when I dewormed them, they passed roundworms! A very interesting paper was published a few years ago about this very problem, out of the University of Georgia. If a bird passes roundworms, it should be periodically dewormed for the rest of its life, as pathologists have found that larvae may encyst in the tissues and be released during times of stress, resulting in additional worms infesting the intestines."*

Dosages:

Pyrantel pamoate: 4.5 mg/kg PO q7-10 days


Praziquantel: 9 mg/kg IM (for cestodes)

Note: fenbendazole can cause fatal hepatopathies, especially in cockatiels, and should not be used in pet birds routinely, also causes feather abnormalities resembling PBFD if administered when bird is molting."

Colin Walker recommends treating for worms three times a year with or with out diagnostics.

And James Gratz, DVM from the International Modena Club site offers the following:

"It is a good practice to deworm 2-3 weeks apart to maximize the % of worms killed. It is now recommended in horses to deworm 4 times per year. Not every 3 months, but 3 times, 3 weeks apart in the spring and once in the late fall. This destroys the life cycle rather than limiting it. A mild infection is not a serious problem but a severe infection can result in starvation and death. Young birds just out of the nest are most susceptible. Deworm them regularly. Roundworms in most species of animal do not cause clinical disease in adults. Some of the birds will be carriers and shed eggs, but no sickness will result. Deworm your old birds twice before breeding to decrease the transmission to the young. A nutritional problem or stress from other disease can trigger worm problems. Also a worm infection can bring a bird down just enough that it will get sick from something else."

Anyway, back to Daisy, and my sincere hopes that he will be well
and be part of your home for many years to come.

fp


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,


Well hmmmmmm....

Worms, in combination with Coccidiosis, and a possible Virus, could certainly shut down their digestive system, it seems to me.


If you hve a way to Tube Feed...I would consider to mix up some ACV-Water, if your Vet did not provide you with any 'Nystatin' or it's kin, to address possible developing Yeats and fermentation in the Crop...or, Baking Soda will also Work, but others here will have to instruct on it's use.


The ( ideally 'raw' kind of ) Apple Cider Vinegar ( get at any Health Food Store )...would be mixed at say Two and a half or Three Tablespoons to a Gallon of Water, and this ACV-Water then could be his drinking Water for a while...and if he is not drinking, you could 'tube-feed' some in now and then which will also aid in keeping him hydrated.


The more hydrated he is, the better his presently margainal or compromised digestive system will manage.

A couple/few days fasting will likely not hurt, and if the Crop is not emptying, there is no point in trying to feed more anyway.


So...yes, do provide warmth for him so he does not chill...


And...



Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Happy Day*

Today Daisy showed some improvement! I brought him to the park after work for about 30 minutes and he seemed alert and stayed awake most of the time. He noticed the shadows of some pigeons flying overhead. He also "stood" on both legs -- I held him so he wouldn't topple forward, but he was putting a little pressure on both of them. (I was careful not to let him touch anything except a towel on my lap and careful not to drop his seeds to keep from spreading PMV.)

Later, when we got home, he flapped his wings and tried to propel himself forward off of the towel donut I set up for him on my bed!! I was so excited. 

He also tried to beak bite me a few times! 

His droppings started to get on the yellow side, and looked like small noodles. So I was worried his digestive system was failing. But I gave him three carbo vegetablis throughout the day and, since then, his droppings turned green and globby. 

This is the first day I really felt like he might have a better chance of surviving than dying. I know it will probably take a long time before he recovers, but it's nice that he might be starting. He's been in my care for 20 days now. 

But . . . coincidentally, last Thursday, he was flapping his wings and seemed to be on the upswing and then he took a turn for the worse on Friday and was nearly comatose on Saturday. I just hope he doesn't do that again.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thank you for the good news update, Enid. I'm very glad that little Daisy is showing some improvement. Though it takes them a long, long time to recover from PMV, it sure it worth all the effort when they finally do  

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



I am very glad to hear of things looking hopeful now..!


Certainly, yes indeedy, support and encourage his increased and gentle use of his Legs, even to holding his rear in your fingers somehow to let him gently flap and 'walk' along on safe surfaces such as a Bed or Lawn...or so long as he seems to like you TO do so anyway.


Keep him well Hydrated, even with mild electrolytes in lieu of plain Water...and or consider to have him on the famous "ACV-Water"...


Pecking wise...if his head seems too wangley or unstable, you can cup your hand just over and gently around it to limit it's movement to only a little down and up again...and with a Seed Bowl tilted toward him, it may aid in his self feeding by Pecking.

At least this has worked very well with some of my wangley-Head PMV Pigeons presently, who otherwise have a very hard time pecking.

Yet, holding them on a towell on my lap, and having my hand cupped over and gently around their head, with a deepish Seed Bowl tilted toward them against their chest even, they manage to peck well and will fill themselves nicely in no time like Pecking 'Jack Hammers' in fact...


Keep up the good work..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Neurological Problems*

Hi, everybody!

I took Daisy to see Dr. Linda Pesek at Westbury Animal Hospital yesterday. She is a pigeon angel! She was so nice.

She did not diagnose Daisy with PMV. She said that he had neurological problems, and she implied that they may be a result of being hit by a car. (I didn't bring up the issue of PMV -- I just wanted to hear what her thoughts were without the influence of someone else's diagnosis.)

She did think that it was possible that Daisy might never walk or stand up again -- be she also said that he might bounce back. She gave me some physical therapy exercises to do with him thoughout the day and told me to hang him in a sling to get him used to "standing" upright. Miraculously, when I brought him home that night, he came close to standing on his own. He was sort of crouching and pushing himself against a towel. But today I haven't been able to get him to do that again.

Daisy is not gaining weight -- he's only 19 grams now. Dr. Pesek treated him for worms and gave me medicine for his coccidiosis. 

She also said that Daisy's probably going to be with me forever. It's so funny how life can change so quickly! I never thought I'd be adopting a pigeon baby. Next year, I'll be able to move into my own apartment and hopefully be able to take in more rescues. 

Keep your fingers crossed for him!

xo, enid


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

enid said:


> Daisy is not gaining weight -- he's only 19 grams now. Dr. Pesek treated him for worms and gave me medicine for his coccidiosis.
> 
> xo, enid


Thanks for the update, Enid, and for getting Daisy to the vet. I'm hoping the weight you typed (19 grams) is a typo and the weight is actually something substantially more. 19 grams is about what a sparrow or other small songbird weighs.

I do hope that Daisy will improve with time and that you and Daisy are able to have a long and happy life together.

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sure wish Daisy ALL THE BEST, Enid!!

He is very lucky to have you helping him!!

Phil might be able to advise about a sling...

Safflower seeds can be good for possibly adding weight, so I've heard. I'm sure others will be along to offer their options too.

We will all be watching for more updates!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Touching*

Hi, everyone. 

Is there a special way that pigeons like to be touched? I understand that they do not care about being petted like a dog. But is there a good way to touch them to make them feel comfortable?


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Some pigeons don't like to be touched, others like back rubs (I have a couple of those). Some like to have preened their head and ear area and most like to have their legs held. I have one who like belly rubs. It all depends on the individual, you have to figure out what they like best.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

They do like to be preened/picked around their head and neck, where they can't get to.


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Albon*

Hi, all.

My vet gave me Albon (suspension) for Daisy's coccidia on Friday but she didn't have her dosage book with her. She never called me with the dosage and I can't reach her and she doesn't have office hours this week. 

Daisy is .19 kg. He's very lethargic and rarely opens his eyes. Does anyone know how much I should give?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Enid, Albon is used for coccidiosis. We have never used this (usually use Sulmet) but I did find a thread which may help you until someone comes on who is more familiar with this medicine.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13047


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Albon is sulfadimethoxine. Here is a quote from the Yale Veterinary Formulary (http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives3.htm):

Sulfadimethoxine

Bird 20 mg/kg BW PO bid (Burke, 1986)
50 mg/kg BW PO sid for 5 days, off for 3 days, repeat for 5 days (Ritchie and Harrison, 1997)
Ratites: 0.05% concentration in drinking water (Welsh et al., 1997) 

Terry


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Happy Update*

Hi, everyone.

Daisy finished his five-day course of Albon yesterday. He has improved! Here's a picture I took a few minutes ago:










He is more alert, although he continues to sleep most of the time. He is flapping his wings from time to time too. He isn't all puffed up anymore.

I'm taking him back to the vet (Dr. Pesek) on Friday. We saw her about a week and a half ago. She gave me some physical therapy exercises to do on his legs. He still isn't able to stand up. His legs aren't paralyzed though; he can kick. He doesn't have a good sense of balance and I think that one of his toes may be broken because he curls it under and winces if I try to straighten it out.

He's such a little delight! 

I took Phil's advice and I have been giving him goji berries cut up into tiny pieces. I also gave him a little bit of very clean spinach torn into little pieces. I'm still feeding him Puppy Chow -- but hoping to stop soon. He's been eating dove bird seed too. 

Do you have any suggestions about nutritious food to feed him? 

He was only 190 grams a week and a half ago and I'm trying to fatten him up a little. His belly bone protrudes and I'm worried he could crack it on a hard floor. 

He still has poor beak-eye coordination but he is able to eat seeds from a deep dish. He has seizures two or three times a day now. Usually, his seizures come when I am holding him, even though he seems to want to be held most of the time. The seizures seem to last only about a minute or two. I can tell when they're coming on because he starts beak biting himself. Sometimes I sing to him softly and it helps calm him down -- other times nothing helps. I gave him a quarter of a Tums yesterday and a quarter today, but that didn't seem to change much. (I have given him oyster shell grit a while ago and he didn't want to eat it.)

Do you have any suggestions about keeping him entertained throughout the day? I bring him to work with me during the day so that I can give him water and make sure he's eating, but I don't get to interact with him too often. I tried setting him up in front of a window twice, but both times he started shaking and flapped himself into a corner of his copy-paper box.

xo, enid


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

What a little cutie!

Is that a white feather I see among all the darker ones?

You might try some Safflower seeds. Squeaks really loves his Saffs!

Sending Hugs, Scritches and continuing healing thoughts to Daisy!!

Shi
& Squeaks


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

That is one very comfy looking set up for Daisy. Very cute little bird. Hope he continues to heal and feel better.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Enid,



Glad to hear things go well, and are improving..!


Kale, Collard Greens, Endives...would be excellent choices...and all he can stand of them or wishes of them would be fine.

Spinach contains some Acids which tho' I forget right now what...make it a less desirable election...bu small amounts are fine.


Otherwise, as Shi mentioned, the White Safflower Seeds would be nice to include...small whole unpopperd plain 'Pop Corn' also...


Get that Toe and foot into a little orthopaedic 'shoe' if need be for it to mend right...just make a flat simple 'shoe' out of some regular corrugated Cardboard, the size of his foot print, make small notches on the periphery for his various Toe Nails...fold a litle toilet tissue into a small flat pad between the cardboard and his foot...and tape it all on with ideally 'micropore' type Tape so it can come off easy in ten or twelve days...meanwhile then, he can stand or walk or put weight on it anyway, without it being curled under and hurting and ending up mending wrong.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Enid, that is one of the sweetest pictures I've seen. Daisy looks so good in her comfy little bed. I hope she continues to improve. 

Right now, I wouldn't worry about the grit at all. I know that feeding them Kaytee Exact formula for a while will help them not only gain weight but provide a lot of nutrients that they need. However, if you're not comfortable with hand feeding I would continue doing what you're doing but add safflour seed and, this may sound crazy, but Zupreem Avian Maintenance for cockatiels is very nutritious and should help her gain weight. These are flavored, colored pellets called (I think) the rainbow mix. We have found our pigeons absolutely love them and while the pellets make up just a small portion of their mix, they get it daily. Just a suggestion.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



I just realized in looking at the image...

Your Pigeon's upper Beak appears to be overgrowing slightly, and this can make it a little harder for them to get their Seeds.


You may wish to take a small fine File, or some fairly fine Sandpaper on a slender flat stick, and file the tip so the upper and lower Beak are the same length...file it from below, with his Beal closed normally...for which you should steady his Head and steady his Beak even...be gentle of course.

This happens when they are not pecking on the Ground to keep it worn down to the right length...their upper Beak can begin to get an overhanging tip which usually curved down somewhat...


Phil
l v


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I have to admit I haven't followed everything, so I don't know if calcium supplement has already been suggested? We use liquid calcium for young doves who have been unable to stand, and it has helped them to get better development and strength in the legs.

John


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Beak and Calcium*

Hi, all.

Thank you for your suggestion to sand down Daisy's beak! I did it and he is having a much easier time eating seeds now.

As far as calcium goes, I gave him half of a Tums over the course of two days but it didn't help. I was afraid of giving him too much. How much do you suggest? And where do I buy liquid calcium?


----------



## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Happy Update*

Hi, everyone. 

Another happy update -- I took Daisy to his vet yesterday and she thinks that he is really improving. She's not sure if he'll learn to stand up again because of his neurological problems, but she said that there is a 50-50 chance. She noticed that his legs are still strong and flexible and that he's gaining weight (and that his feathers have a nice shine). 

I also asked her directly if she thought he had PMV and she giggled and said, "No. I think he got hit by a car." She said Daisy didn't have the classic symptoms of a PMV bird. So I guess it pays to get a second opinion when it's possible -- his first rehabber thought that he had PMV.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Enid, 



Glad to hear of the good improves...!


I am very happy he is in such good hands for these patient eventuations to get to unfold, too.


I never did think this was a PMV situation, at least not that I recall.


The missing Tail Feathers and other tell-tales suggested more some physical trauma or predation scenario...although, of course, a PMV Pigeon could certainly find themselves being caught by a Dog or get hit by a Car too.


And too, the PMV can manifest in a very wide ranging gamut of possible signs or symptoms or effects, so, all in all, it can have many faces as it were.


I would guess that such gentle Physical Therapy, as holding him low over the Bed sheets, so he can flap or 'Helicopter' if he likes, would be fine to do...as would seeing if he may somewhat 'stand' while flapping ( as some of mine have done who had nerve-leg issues and who otherwise could not stand or walk, but would manage to stand while doing controlled flapping...and if he may sort of stand while flapping, you can hold his Tail - if there is enough of one to hold - and he can be steady'd by that and flap all the more while standing as he may...and I know this from one I had recently who would wait for me to hold his Tail, for him to get on to his flapping excercises....otherwise, he'd scoot forward, legs would be too weak, and he'd stop flapping and just lay down...but so long as i held his Tail, he could flap and stand in longer and longer times...)


Good to hear of the weight comeing back and the Feathers being nice and ******..!


Is he eating his fresh Greens?


too, if you can hold him with his Legs dangleing, hold him in one hand from below, snug somehow so he is comfortable and secure and not worried about balance or slipping or anything...and with the other hand, get him to be pressing with his Legs against your other free hand...doing that often...might be good.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

A bird can fly with no tail feathers, that has been proven by quit a few rehab birds I have had, they can fly believe me. Some can't always get the height they want but they can fly without tail feathers. 

Cindy


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

The beak and eye trouble could be some neurlogic problems if he got hit by a car, (brain swelling) it takes time for this to go down, Now I am no expert but this is what I would do, 

1. Do exactly what your vet tells you.
2. I would hand feed baby bird formula till the bird gains some weight but still leave the bird seed in her encloser. 
3.Ask your vet to give something for parasites.
4 monitor closely for changes in the birds behaviour

The people on here know so much more than I do but I was just letting you know what I would do. Hopefull she/he comes to a full recovery. Good Luck

Cindy


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, everyone.

Thank you again for all of your insight.

Daisy is continuing to recover. He is so alert and now he is doing things that make me think that he is happy. For example, when I speak to him softly, he wiggles his wing up and down. And he looks around at other birds. He often flaps when we go on walks or in the middle of the night when we're supposed to be asleep.

However, I am so concerned about his lack of ability to stand up. I don't think that he is making any progress in that regard, even though he is much livelier these days. And I am partly to blame! I take him to work with me every day so that I can keep him company, give him water and bird seed (he's not too good at eating on his own), and shift his position throughout the day. But I can't get away with taking breaks to exercise his legs, except at lunchtime. (Side note: I am working late tonight and he is sitting on a pile of statutes and legal cases. It's so cute.) I am afraid that his legs might be getting weaker and weaker. In fact, they feel weaker and he doesn't press back much when I do the exercises Phil and my vet suggested. Sometimes I lightly rub my fingers over his legs. I hope that feels nice to him. 

I don't know what to do! I am so scared about the future. I am committed to keeping him even if he never walks again. I am so attached to him and I miss him when we're apart! But I don't think that I can bring him to work with me forever. Maybe for the next few months, but not the next few years. 

Does anybody have a magic wand they can wave over him to help him stand up again?!

Oh, I should clarify. His vet thinks that the reason that he can't stand up is because he has neurological problems as a result of a car accident. He isn't paralyzed. He kicks when he's dreaming and other times. He just can't seem to remember how to stand. She thinks there's a 50-50 chance that he could stand again. 

I feel so bad for him because he wants to fly. He's tried so many times to take off when we go on our daily walks. Sometimes, I put him on a soft blanket on the floor and he tries to pull himself around with his wing and a beak. But he only makes it about 12 inches before tiring himself out and he usually quits in an awkward position. It's heartbreaking. 

I have taken the suggestion to give him calcium. And I gave him a little arnica montana too. 

Really, I am holding my breath for next September when I will move out of the apartment I share with two pigeon-hating roommates and into an apartment by myself where I can rescue another pigeon so at least Daisy will have company if I leave him at home while I'm at work. 

Sigh. Does anyone have miracle stories about a pigeon they thought would never walk again and then, boom, one day he or she does? 

xo, enid


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,



Well, if this little Pigeopn has not won these room-mates over, nothing would..! Fooey on them indeed.


Have you done the excercises with him where, on the bed, you hold him in your palm, low, and also hold his Tail ( does he have enough of a Tail to hold yet ?) and let him Wing Flap?

Which leads, to just holding his tail, and having him mock standing, with or without a palm under him, so the flapping elevates him enough to use his Legs maybe...as long as he keeps flapping to take most of the weight off?


This lets them get good Wing excercise, and, to work or use weak Legs.

One of mine awhile back could not stand at all, but after we hd been doing these wing Flap excercises where he could sort-of-use his legs while flapping, he soon learned to do it on his own, and would be see flapping-walking cross the floor to where-ever he wanted to be. Once he would stop flapping, he'd lay there till the next occasion.



Glad to hear he is putting on some weight...and of course, the irony, is that his weak Legs have not caught up to it...but, they might, I would not give up...and this can take months sometimes before things are right for it to happen...or start to happen enough to be worth mentioning.


I think trying some 'Prednisone' might be worthwhile, ask your Vet about it...you never know, it might help.


All the general excercise he or you can stand, too...will be good.


A suppliment having all the "B" Vitamines, ( or just powdered Brewer's Yeast - any Health Food Store ), added to his Seeds with a glistening of Olive Oil) in portions suited of course to his weight, would be good...



I have one presently who was a bad Car wack, and it is six weeks or seven since I got him in here and he is just this week starting to stand somewhat in short periods...some take longer of course.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

enid said:


> Sigh. Does anyone have miracle stories about a pigeon they thought would never walk again and then, boom, one day he or she does?
> 
> xo, enid


I have one that came from my rehabber friend. It was definitely hit by a car. It took about 4 weeks for it to be able to start standing and walking. I got it around the middle of the month, and it was not standing at that point. My rehabber friend had already had the bird for about two weeks before I got it. About a week after coming here, it started standing and slowly improved. It seems to be back to 100% now.

Hopefully your Daisy will make a good recovery too.

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

enid said:


> Hi, all.
> 
> Thank you for your suggestion to sand down Daisy's beak! I did it and he is having a much easier time eating seeds now.
> 
> As far as calcium goes, I gave him half of a Tums over the course of two days but it didn't help. I was afraid of giving him too much. How much do you suggest? And where do I buy liquid calcium?


Hi Enid,

Seeing as your friend will most likely be an indoor bird, Cal Sure would be a good
choice for you. It has D3 which indoor birds require for nutritional synthesis and has magnesiun as well for better calcium absorption. I believe that Jedd's carries this product. Here's a link to the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

And specifically a link to the Pigeon Supply Houses therein:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Hope this helps...

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,


"Winsmore" has recieved vrious fevorable mentions in our threads...I hve been mening to send off for some myself - 


http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-vitamins.html


( Three Quarters of the way down the page ) 


It is not expensive, and a packet would last most of us long time I am sure...



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,


I forgot to ask...


What are the poops looking like? color, size, number in 24 hours, consistancy?

Does he manage alright being able to poop and not get himself soiled?


Phil
l v


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Enid, how long was your rescue on Baytril and have you ever treated the
bird for Trichomonas?

Maggie, regarding Albon, it it thought to stay in the bloodstream longer than
the other sulpha meds and therefore considered to be a good choice especially
w/bad infestations of coccidia.

fp


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## fallenweeble (Sep 2, 2007)

*sling?*

forgive me if this was already brought up but i think firstimer mentioned to me once something about a strand where a bird with splay leg was rigged up in a sling sort of mechanism to try to encourage the bird to stand in the correct position. i'm wondering if this sort of arrangement might benefit this little guy? (a sling where the legs are allowed to dangle/touch the ground in order to encourage use but so that the bird's weight is supported by the sling. 
does anyone remember a post like this and would it be something to consider in this bird's situation?
okay, i'm probably just NUTS! tee hee.
AND what a wonderful rescuer!!! - it sounds like the universe sent this bird to the right person for sure 
awesome!
-weeble


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi weeble, 



Yes indeed...

Slings are good for instances of both Legs being broken and splinted, so they can dangle...

slings are good for when both Legs are badly strained or sprained, so they can dangle and have no weight on them, letting the Bird eat, drink and poop with the Sling arranged so it does not interfere with these activities.

Sometimes Slings are good for a single, seriously injured/broken Leg, similarly, so it can dangle.


Paralized Legs or any other occasion...some Birds, and some Slings, seem to get along alright, but still take frequent inspection and checking and sometimes the Bird gets wiggley or bored and works themselves of it...or, the more comfortable the Sling can be made to be as far as the Bird is experiencing it, the more likely the Bird will oblige it.

This is not always easy to manage.


So, in answer to your question then, you bet, Slings are a very good thing sometimes, or, whenever one wishes to ensure the Bird's Legs are going to be allowed to rest merely, and to have no weight or pressures on them, nor be obliged to be tucked in or bent or anything but to dangle.


Whether this is best for those Legs, depends on the opinion or evaluation as for whether or when those Legs would be better excercised and constructively stressed in some kind of use or in being available for use...and or at what phase of a convelesence or recovery excercise should begin.


I have had Sling Birds who I took out of the Sling a few times-a-day, for them to Wing Flap as I held them in one way or another, andfor them to get some excercise of their Wings, and, excercise of their Legs too sometimes, depending...sometimes playing 'Airplane' with them, where I held them and carried them around at arm's length as we pretended to fly with me making Airplane sound effects, turning thewm and banking and so on ( gently of course, ) and them getting their Wings into it as they pleased, and they liked that, so we did it that way.


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, everyone.

Thank you again for all of your help! I can't tell you how much it means to me. I'd be lost without you.

I made a sling for him upon my vet's recommendation about four weeks ago. The vet recommended that I put him in the sling some of the time and take him out some of the time. Luckily, I can bring him to work and so I'm able to move him to a new position when he gets wiggly. 

He's never been treated for trich. Would that show up in the fecal sample? two weeks after he was treated for worms and coccidia, his vet did a fecal test and she said that it was fine. 

He was on Baytril for seven days.

His droppings look normal. Green or brown depending on whether he's been eating puppy chow or seeds. There's some white and they're moist and not runny (they had been runny several weeks ago). Sometimes, they are odorless and sometimes they have a bad smell. I know that's a bad sign, but I gave the vet one of his smelly ones to test and nothing showed up in the fecal test. (His vet is Dr. Pesek, and she's good with pigeons.) I always forget to count how many in a day, but it seems like every other hour or hour and a half, and they usually come two at a time. So that's a little over 20. 

He occasionally soils himself. Because he's at work with me, I frequently clean out his box, but I can't always catch it right away and sometimes he'll get droppings in his feathers. I rinse his legs and vent feathers every night. 

Phil, thank you for the advice about the helicopter flying lessons. Sometimes, he would just start flapping spontanoeously when I took him on his daily walk, but last night we made a concerted effort to "work out." I held him about a foot over a blanket on the floor and he flapped and rested and flapped and rested. It was so adorable! He was shaking his head in a funny way -- I'm not sure what it meant, but maybe he was just concentrating so hard. He has no tail feathers yet, so I can't do it exactly the way you've described, but we're working on it.

(Twice last week, he flapped so hard spontaneously that I lost my grip and he fell about three and a half feet. The first time, I was terrified that he'd hurt himself. But he was ecstatic and he seemed to want to do it again! Two days later, he did it on one of our walks and flipped over onto the grass.)

Thanks, everyone, for your other recommendations! I'll give them a whirl. 

xo, enid


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*seizures*

Hi, all.

Daisy started having frequent seizures today -- about one every twenty to ninety minutes. Every time he wakes up, poops or eats seeds. 

Before today, his seizures came about two - five times a day.

His vet isn't available until Friday. 

I've been sprinkling calcium powder on his Puppy Chow for the past week. He's in the sun at least an hour a day and sits near the window for vitamin D.

I can go to the pigeon supply store on Tuesday to buy things. Any suggestions?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Sorry to hear he is having seizures so frecvently.
I would try to hold of the daily calcium as hypercalcemia can also cause seizures. Give it only three times a week. Keep him calm, avoid any stress and keep him well hydrated.
What medications is he on now?

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 


Vitamine D wise...it has to be direct Sunshine, if it is filtered through Glass, it is no good in so far as being useful for Vitamine D production.


Would you describe the siezures? How so? How long they last?



Are these 'wangley-neck' movements when he gets stimulated/excited from something? Or, more global?



Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, all. 

OK, I will stop with the daily calcium.

Daisy isn't on any medications now. At various times during the last eight weeks, he had been on Albion, Baytril, Nystatin, and a dewormer that the vet administered in the office (so I don't know what it is). Six weeks ago he was on carbo vegetablis and last week I gave him a few arnica montana pellets, but not many because I was worried that they could make things worse. 

The character of the seizures changed over the last few hours. Yesterday and in the past, they were full body seizures where he would uncontrollably flap his wings and twist his neck and body. If he was on the blanket on the floor, his whole body would jerk around. I don't know how long they lasted -- maybe half a minute. If I picked him up, he would stop within a few seconds. If the seizure came while I was holding him, it wouldn't last as long, but it was still a full body seizure. Last night, at 3:00 am, I held him for a full hour while he seized over and over again. 

I don't know what set the seizures off -- sometimes being fed or waking up or defecating, but sometimes there doesn't seem to be any reason. 

For the last four hours, they have been very short seizures of the wrangley neck type. I just fed him and his neck twisted four or five times in just a few minutes of time. His body didn't twist much and he did not flap his wings. Luckily, he hasn't had any full body seizures all morning.

When you suggest keeping him well hydrated, do you think I should use the dropper to give him water? I offer tepid water to him every two hours in the day, but he doesn't always want it. Other times, he dunks his whole head in like he's dying of thirst.

How many hours of direct sunlight should I give him? He gets at least an hour a day now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid,



An hour-a-day of direct sunshine sounds really good to me...


If he drinks a few times a day on his own, with you steadying him and his Head and Beak as need be, he should be hydrated well enough...I would not do any Eye-Dropper things with Liquids for him, and, trying to can be very dangerous, especially in Pigeons who are a little off in their co-ordinations.


I did not know that these siezures had been going on.

I have several PMV-survivor Pigeons presently, and while they have constant wangley necks, it seems to be limited just to that, and there is nothing with these which I would regard as siezures...so, I myself do not have any experience with siezures as such.


One of myh PMV or PPMV Pigeons, the worst afflicted of them, is constantly in one or another pose of extreme neck twist, so his head is under his chest and upside down to boot...he only walks backwards, but he has learned where everything is, has his various favorite hang-outs or hiding places, and, if I have not fed him ( held his head and Beak in a normal pose in a little Seed Bowl on my lap ) he will seek me out and be sort of 'growling' to vocalize his interest. He is very vocal when feeding also.

Once fed and watered, he likes to settle into a nap on my lap, where he is quiet and restful for a while, then at some point he becomes a fuss-budget and I have to set him down, usually, to poop, but then he wants to wander off to one of his hang-outs anyway.


Too, if I can not figure out where he is, he will start growling and twirling if I call him and that helps me locate him, as well eventually he will come scooting out backwards and going this way and that, in his odd manner, and windingly find his way to me if we have not done any chow time in a while...so, he is very bright, and he manages really well for himself all things considered.

Sometimes I gather him up for a chow time, and his Crop has quite a few Seeds in it, which is a total mystery to me where he got them and how he ate them, but I guess sometimes he goes to the common Seed Bowls when no others are around, and patiently, somehow, eats by himself..! But I have never seen him do it.


Ohhhhh, golly...

The Homeopathic Medicines should be totally safe for your Pigeon, and may indeed help.

I do not know these medicines, but those who do maybe can step in here and reiterate about them for us both. I should try them also for the Pigeons I have.


If he is eating well, drinking as he feels is enough for him, pooping well, and gets some direct Sunshine now and then, and gets a little excercise each day...then he is doing very well I'd say as for good care and holding his own.

I would definitely not feed any kind of 'puppy chow' if it were me.

But just out of curiousity, what kind/brand have you been feeding him?

These almost always contain a lot of bad things, chemicals, pesticide residue, preservatives, toxins...and I feel you would do best to not feed any more of it to him, especially since he is frail in some ways, neurological ways at least..and for all we know, the puppy chow is contributing to these problems.

What little bad and heavily compromised nutrition is even present in these 'chows' at all, even still can not justify their use, compared to the entirely wholesome, elegant and good nutrition of Seeds, and small Berrys, and some occasional dark Greens.


I wish I knew more about siezures, and their address and prognosis, but I do not.


Have you been feeding him Goji Berrys? If not, they are very good and have a high amount of antioxidants which can not but be of benifit to him and his general immune health and healing.

Pidgey has experience with siezures in Pigeons, I will PM him...


Best wishes...


Post some more images...!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Let me ask a question about the seizures: can you describe in exact detail how they tend to go? It might help if I describe the ones that my YoYo had. He would seem to turn his head as though to glance over his shoulder, always the left one. He'd straighten back up and then do it again a few times, each worse than the next. Then, his head would twist around in a spasm down close to his back and his eyes would sort of shiver. He'd turn in circles but he had the full use of his legs. Eventually (30 seconds to a minute or so), he come out of it and look around as if wondering what had happened.

It's possible for birds to get epilepsy from various causes including trauma. That's possible for any of us. Epilepsy can proceed to spasms so bad that they don't let off (status epilepticus, usually referred to simply as "status") but not that often. 

Frankly, it's impossible to say. If it were me, I'd probably treat with Metronidazole for a week to ten days as well as keeping the bird on Baytril for at least a couple of weeks. That would help to rule out other possibilities. If that didn't work, then your vet might consider putting the bird on Anti-Epileptic Drugs (AEDs) like Phenobarbital although he could give you some injectible Diazepam (Valium) and teach you to use it for really bad seizures. The trouble with AEDs is that once you start using them, you need to be fairly consistent with the dosing. That's something to talk over with your vet.

Pidgey


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Photos*

New photos, as requested! Justin with Daisy at Coney Island today and Daisy's legs!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



What about details on the siezures?


And, have you been adding any Brewer's Yeast or other B-Vitamine medly suppliments to his chow? Lightly 'glistening' his Seeds with some fresh new-bottle Olive Oil so the powders stick..?


Antioxidants - 'Goji Berrys'...?


Leg wise...are they always like we see in the image? Held back, straight? Or...?


Best wishes!

Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, Phil.

Yes, I have been giving him goji berries. I haven't tried the Brewer's Yeast. I will get some this weekend.

His seizures nearly stopped today and he seemed so much better! He had a couple of very short seizures, but nothing like before. I'm not sure what happened. He also seemed very hungry, so maybe he is getting better.

His legs are weird. He had a fracture in one of his legs, which was in a splint for 10 or so days. Even after the removal of the splint, he wasn't using it. Now, he seems to prefer that leg and he tucks it under him and sticks the "good leg" out straight. Sometimes he kicks his legs and tries to push himself around with them -- but he never gets more than a foot away before gettting tired out. His feet seem to be losing strength. When we do the leg exercises, I try to position his feet on my finger like a perch, but he doesn't quite do it. I'm taking your advice and trying to be consistent with the exercises and patient. I wish I could do them during the day, but I usually have to wait until I get home to work with him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 




Ahhhhhhh...


Well, the Brewer's Yeast ( so long as he is not presently on any antibiotics) is a nice friendly source of a bunch of B-Vitamines and a few other good things too, and so may help for supporting the healing and function protem of Neurolical impairs which are still trying to heal...

Half a Teaspoon worth a Day give or take should be fine...just lightly 'glisten' his day's Seeds with some fresh Olive Oil ( must not be one which was opened weeks or months ago, needs to be a new Bottle, since once opened it does spoil in only a few weeks unless kept well refrigerated...) and that will allow powder things to adhere to the Seeds. As well as that fresh Olive Oil is very good for them, and aids in assimilating other Vitamines and Minerals.

This will start to spoil in a day, so only make up what he will eat that day, and make new the next day.


If you have some good Health Food Stores around there, you can get the Brewer's Yeast in the Bulk section for like .80 cents an ounce or something.


While you are there, get some powdered Purple Dulce too...and add that also...a heaping Teaspoon a day would be fine for his Day's Seeds...


And if you are in a mood too, mince up some raw fresh Garlic, and see if you can tempt him to peck/eat some...it is really good for them, and some take to it fast, some do not. But is would be good for him if he would eat it, and a little every other day or so would be great. 1/4 teaspoon worth or something.

Same with all he can stand of fresh fine minced Dark Greens, Collard, Beet-Tops, Mustard Greens or the likes, no Lettuces, no Spinach...most will eat it if minced fine ( I usually just cut it into tiny diamonds with Scissors) and from that, they decide to peck it from the whole Leaf...especially if one is holding the Leaf for them, where some of it is stickout out of one's Sandwhich, where, probably, it tastes better that way...

I myself find Garlic Breath Birds to be entirely charming.


So...working with Natural enhanced Nutrition in these ways, is safe and easy and will not tax him, is very forgiving, is fun, and can definitely help them out in any situations of their getting over some serious thing or other...is a good all round general boost and nourisher and immune system helper...

Really like your Tattoos by-the-way...very nice..!


Best wishes, 

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



Would still like a detailed describe of his 'siezures' if you could...
Just the head/neck? His whole Body? eyes? are these trembles, shakes, or global twisting and shuddering or???




Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Thank you, Phil!

I will get to the store this weekend and start him on a new diet that includes the things you recommend.

I'll let my friend know that you like his tattoos. They are unusual because he started tattooing himself when he was 15, so some are kind of awkward and sweet. 

Best, Enid


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Enid,

I just want to thank you and Justin for rescuing Daisy and taking such good care of her.

I don't know if this was mentioned, but you can add a little probiotics. either powder or part of a capsule to his meal. this will help Daisy to assimilate and digest her food better and will allow for some good gut bacteria to flourish, which youngsters really need. You can pick that up in the refrigerator section of a good health food store.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



Yes, Tressa's mention of 'Pro Biotics' is very good advice...

These are a little pricey usually, but Health Food Stores might have 'sample' packets to give away, so be sure to ask them about that.

Otherwise, the brand I use is 'Uno's Choice' in a small Brown Glass Bottle, which costs I think about 12 or 16 Dollars, and would last for many hundreds of Birds I am sure...

These are powders, so they will stick nicely to 'glistened' Seeds along with the other things.


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Seizures*

Hi, everyone.

Well, I should have known it was too good to be true: Daisy's seizures came back. 

He has four different kinds of seizures. The worst start with him biting the feathers on his crop. Then he turns his head way around to the back, always over the left side, and he bites the feathers behind his head. Then his wings and body convulse and he flaps his wings fast, wriggles his neck and closes his eyes. If I'm not holding him, his whole body will jump. These kinds of seizures probably last about 30 seconds or so. Sometimes, I can catch him when he starts biting his crop feathers and if I gently push his beak away and speak to him softly, he'll stop and the seizures won't start. But that doesn't always work. These seizures happen at least twice a day. I can't figure out what sets them off; they seem random. 

The second kind of seizures are similar; however, there is no beak biting and they are over within ten seconds. 

A third kind of seizures are in his legs only. His legs start kicking and then they stiffen. Theses seizures can last 40 - 60 seconds. 

Finally, the fourth kind of seizures might not really be seizures but the after effects. He stretches his neck out to the left then to the right. He'll do this sort of thing repeatedly, usually the day after he's had a bad day of seizures. Maybe he has a stiff neck. 

On another subject, I bought some probiotics (acidophilous), brewer's yeast, and vitamin D. I also bought him so kale. He had all of this stuff yesterday. He really seemed to enjoy the kale. 

Thank you again, everyone, for your help!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



I am not sure these are siezures you are describing.

I think this sounds a lot like a neurologicaly impared Pigeon, merely preening, or trying to.

Or also his feeling the urge to excercise a little, do some Wing Excercise, wanting to fly, or trying to...


The Legs, I dunno...on that one.


I have one now in particular, who was severly effected by PMV...and he is very spazzy, only walk backwards, and when he does, he does so VERY fast...keeps his Head upside down under his chest/keel area...and skoots zig zaggy and wildly where-ever he is trying to get to, runs into things backwards and keeps trying to 'go' so he ends up with his Tail straight up against something, and his Body vertical and Legs pushing for all they are worth...then, he resolves it by deciding he may as well change his angle and go off again in some different direction...


He knows if I am talking to him, and if I do, he goes wacko...he goes wacko because he is excited about doing Chow-Time, or being helped to get a drink of Water.


Now, almost anyone would think he was having some sort of severe fit or siezures, twirling very rapidly in place, grunting, being very spazzy all tolled...but, it is just how his excitement or enthusisam translates, in his condition...he also grunts contantly when in these modes.

When he tryies to do "X", he gets other letters of the Alphabet which include only a little bit of the "X" he intended...

I know this is frustrating for him.

Once I have steadied him, steadied his Head into the Seed Bowl with one hand, while steadying his Body with my other hand, then steadied his head for a little drink or two...some more Seed gobbleings, another drink, then, he is serene, poitively palpably happy, and ready for a nap or some day dreaming on my lap.


He gets cold too, because the Feathers on his Back have been pecked-pulled out by other Pigeons he annoys by 'skooting' into their private mate cuddles or Nests or as may be, and pushing for all he is worth, backward, against them...and then gets agitated/frustrated with how his back is cold since it i bald now...


...and if I gather him up, and go 'Hahhhhhhhhh" on his back and neck with my warm breath, he immediately relaxes, stops grunting, and is serene...where I usually stick him in my shirt for a while for him to be warm there.

I decided to keep him in a Cage now, so he does not get into these inadvertant tresspasses with other floor Birds, who in merely trying to chastise him for his intruding, had been pecking him and pulling out the Feathers on his back.



Similarly, other Pigeons having less affliction, can appear disturbingly agitated or to be having some sort of odd fit, when they are really only preening their fronts or backs or as may be...if they have Mites or dry skin, this can seem even more sudden and agitated and wierd when we see them doing it.


I am thinking that most of what you are seeing, might just be his attempts at normal things, which are compromised because of his neurological condition, and or his attempts at normal Pigeon things, which get maybe a little spazzy or wacky by slight excitements or enthusiasms which his neurology does not handle well yet.



Can you make any little Videos of him doing these things?


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, Phil.

I hope you're right! I have a feeling that three of the four kinds of "seizures" that I described to you could be a sign that he is very excited. They do tend to happen when he's hungry or we're doing something fun -- and I realized that they're always worst on Sundays, which is after a day of outdoor fun and so maybe he's a little tired. 

I think the worst kind, where his whole body trembles, might possibly be real seizures; however, that kind doesn't occur as frequently as the others. (And I don't have any experience, so I could well be wrong about that.) Usually, he calms down if I hold him and talk or sing to him. 

Your spazzy pigeon sounds so sweet! I hope that he recovers! It sounds like he is in very good hands. How long do you think it will take his feathers to grow back? 

I will try to make a video, but it might take a little while before I can figure out how to upload it. 

Some very cute things happened this weekend. We took our usual long Saturday morning walk and came upon some dancing fountains in front of the Brooklyn Museum of Art. His little brown eyes were so wide! He was mesmerized! He always seems interested in the faucet at bath time, so seeing the fountains must have been incredible entertainment.

Today, we went to the Blessing of the Animals at a huge old church in Manhattan. He slept through most of the service but he woke up for the dancing and watched with wide eyes when they were waving big ribbons high in the air. Then we ran into singer Judy Collins and her husband near the blessing in the courtyard and her husband was asking all sorts of questions about Daisy. They both seemed so nice.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

enid said:


> Hi, Phil.
> 
> I hope you're right! I have a feeling that three of the four kinds of "seizures" that I described to you could be a sign that he is very excited. They do tend to happen when he's hungry or we're doing something fun -- and I realized that they're always worst on Sundays, which is after a day of outdoor fun and so maybe he's a little tired.



I find the PMV Birds anyway, some of them, when excited or enthused, can not really translate the Neural signals into the desired actions or movements, so it all comes out a little off, or somewhat spazzy, twisting, or twirling...or can anyway, when it does.

I never thought of these as being 'Siezures', but just accepted them as problems translating intentions, into harmonized or co-ordinated Neurologic-muscular process...forthright actions, getting neurologically frustrated.





> I think the worst kind, where his whole body trembles, might possibly be real seizures;




They can really tremble, even regular, never been sick Pigeons can, and do...they can just shudder all over, globally shudder/shake/tremble, when they are sort of excited about something, or nervous in a good way, or just full of energy...especially the younger ones...they can actually 'Humm' with it.


If they are on your shoulder, so they are near your Ear, you can hear it even, like a Moth's Wing's sound almost, a definite 'Humm' for a moment, when they 'shudder' or 'tremble'...and many do this if they know one is about to pet them or preen them or place a gentle hand over them, then it stops...or can start up again too while one has one's hand on them or is holding them.


My Doves do this all the time...and various Pigeons I have had, have too...it is normal, just an 'energy' thing they have...




> ...however, that kind doesn't occur as frequently as the others. (And I don't have any experience, so I could well be wrong about that.) Usually, he calms down if I hold him and talk or sing to him.



This sounds like normal youngish Pigeon 'energy' things, only a little wacked out maybe at times, because he has some Neurological conditions distorting his co-ordinations somewhat.





> Your spazzy pigeon sounds so sweet! I hope that he recovers!



Thank you!

...he is...he reminds me for some reason of the guy in that older film, "My Left Foot"...

He is REALLY strong, yet thin ( my fault, I should have been feeding him more. The whole food-thing was really rough for quite a while, he would not open his beak enough to 'gobble' small Seeds if I steady'd his head in the Seed cup, and, he had those "IRON JAWS" which made it IMPOSSIBLE for me to do Seed-Pops...he wa so twisty I feared he would aspirate formula, yeeeeeesh, finally, he got to where he WOULD finally open his Beak enough to eat, with his version of 'pecking' which is not pecking so much as a sort of sideways gobbleing...and me worried all the time about him choking...I used to have to massage the Seeds down his Neck after every little gobbleing bit, so they would go down into his Crop, otherwise his neck would fill up! and he would get stalled then as for eating any more till it was resolved...) , 

...and scruffy, and SO strong willed...yet somehow very sweet, and so happy when we do chow times and water drinking times, grunting all through, and then once satiated, he is all dreamy and lolling and silent and knows we will do some warm breath things on his back, where he just melts like a Salvidore Dali Watch...letting his semi-bald Head hang limp over the side of my hand...just all 'Lolly' then...

He was a PMV Squeaker...somehow he is left with all these troubles, and the other four Squeakers who lived, are mostly resolved now to be pretty much normal, if a little 'off' in their ways somewhat.

He got hundreds of angry Ants on him last week, biting him all over his semi-bald little Head, his Back, his Keep and undersides, Legs, Toes, Eyelids, and every where else they could too.

The Ants were angry because he had wandered over into a corner where they have a burrow, and was jamming himself in his way in their corner, stepping on them and so on, and I found him there, and it took me for ever to get them all off...they lock their Jaws in biting, and if you pull on them the Head remains with the Jaws locked in the skin...so I could only gently pick off the relaxed Ants, and there were hundreds on him. I got bit a lot too of course, getting them off and so on...Oye...

Poor little Bub, his Head swelled up and was all red, eyes swelled shut for a couple days, and I know he was miserable...after that, I decided to set him up in a cage for a while...that, and to let him have a rest from jamming himself into other floor Bird's places where they would chastise him with pecking and so on.





> It sounds like he is in very good hands. How long do you think it will take his feathers to grow back?


I should know...but I don't remember...it depends, but if nothing is irritating that area, a few weeks or four I s'pose. He also presses his back against things when in that sort of 'Vertical' and going backward mode, so his back does get a mild friction or irritation that way, which might keep them from growing back till he stops doing that.




> I will try to make a video, but it might take a little while before I can figure out how to upload it.



I do not know how either...






> Some very cute things happened this weekend. We took our usual long Saturday morning walk and came upon some dancing fountains in front of the Brooklyn Museum of Art. His little brown eyes were so wide! He was mesmerized! He always seems interested in the faucet at bath time, so seeing the fountains must have been incredible entertainment.



He may have been thirsty, too!

Some Pigeons just love seeing or hearing Water, and usually these also love their Baths, too...so, might be he is one of those, or, one of those, and, was thirsty too..!

...does he get Baths sometimes? You can support him in your hand or hands, in some shallow Pan or other...on the floor or outside. Cool water seems to be the universal taste for them...no matter the weather or Season...



> Today, we went to the Blessing of the Animals at a huge old church in Manhattan.



Ohhh...that sounds so nice...




> He slept through most of the service but he woke up for the dancing and watched with wide eyes when they were waving big ribbons high in the air. Then we ran into singer Judy Collins and her husband near the blessing in the courtyard and her husband was asking all sorts of questions about Daisy. They both seemed so nice.



Wow...such a sweet tale...


Far as I know, real 'Siezures' would not calm down with soothing gestures of holding or comforting...while normal Pigeon 'happy-nerves', excess energy, normal shudders/shivvers, will calm down instantly when soothed or held sweetly...even if they come back off and on for a moment, with some Birds while being held or soothed...especialy with a Bird who one knows and cares for and who know all is well to be touched or held, since it is about 'happy-nerves' in it's way...even if it may annoy them a little bit sometimes to be held, too.

They have an extremely refined and develped sence of Balance of course, and for many, it is a little disturbing to be held, or to be picked up...not because they do not like the one holding them, or because they do not trust you, but because it conflicts their tremendously developed sense of Balance, and, their reflexes are wishing to compensate, as if they were in flight...for the small movements being made for them, in being picked up or held...so for them it is a kind of conflicted compromise of instinct respecting an innate propensity for automonous Balance corrections...which we are asking them to over-ride.

Some, more than others, can have a hard time, or, can take a while, to learn to resolve this.



As far as I have seen, PMV or other Neuological troubles which make distortions of their movements to some degree, can also see them feel exhasperated, frustrated, tantrumy even, I am sure...or, they can appear to be having a sort of 'fit' of sorts, when really, they are just managing some preening as best they may, or are attending to a slight itch on their skin by preening it with seeming suddenness or serious or severe looking repetitive movement.


So glad you found him and have accepted him and care for him...and take him places..!


Time...slow time for ones like these...for things to come back...and sometimes they do, sometimes they sort of do, sometimes they only come back a little...and no way to know, till one long later, is looking back...or to notice little things, along the way, improving...


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, they do preen their necks and then backs like you describe. Sometimes, they'll ruffle all their feathers out and shake a bit, too. Then, everything'll go back down and they resume looking like a pigeon. They'll do more enthusiastic preening if there's something causing them to itch like parasitic bugs.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Enid,

It would be really helpful to see a video of Daisy, when he gets any "seizure" you describe,

How absolutely wonderful that you took Daisy to get the St. Francis Blessing, I would have loved to have taken my birds, but the timing of our blessing was at an odd hour and I missed it. God bless you for taking such wonderful care of Daisy!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



I was thinking this morning...there can be fine tremors or palsies effecting their Head which are associated with PMV Pigeons or PMV survivors, and possibly from other causes effecting their Motor Neurology, and this is sort of like Katheryn Hepburn when she was old, and is different than normal shakes, shudders or 'humms' they can do.

With this, their Neck and Head seem a little loose and wobbley and can look weak in how they move their Head and Neck, while actually not being weak at all as far as their actual muscle strength...but can show fine tremors of the Head, while the rest of their Body is still.

So...I don't know if you were seeing any of that occuring...but the Pigeons I have seen it in, had it any time they moved their head, and or just paused from moving their head...if when at reat their head could be entirely calm and still...the process of moving their Head would bring it on so it was happenning even if they held still for a momment or two, untill they relaxed.


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bump...


Hate to see it sink too far into oblivian..!


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, everyone.

Just a quick update: Daisy seems to be getting better every day, although he still isn't able to stand on his own. He has been flapping more and kicking his legs. I stopped feeding him Puppy Chow and now he eats seeds most of the time, with greens thrown in once in a while. He isn't having many "seizures" anymore -- today, he didn't have any!

I'm crossing my fingers that he'll stand soon.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Enid!

We will look forward to many more positive updates for Daisy!!  

Hugs and Scritches

Shi & Squeaks


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You've done such an amazing job with this bird. Thanks you for the wonderful update.

Reti


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Cooing*

Hi, everyone. 

I've kept meaning to ask about this -- Daisy hasn't made any squeaker noises or cooing since I've found him. Is that normal? He's probably about four months old now. 

I've played cooing sounds for him on the Internet and he's heard cooing at the park. He seems to be interested in listening to the sounds, but he never coos.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Some pigeons are not all that chaty. Especially females and most likely young ones.
I am sure s/he will eventually, especially if it's a boy, you will wish he'll kept quiet for a minute. 

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



Yahhhh...


Too, he is too old for 'squeaking' and too young for 'Cooing' and 'Mooing', or at least not in the mood for the latter ones.


No 'grunts'?


Many of 'mine' grunt quite...


Too, they are less likely to make vocalizations if no other Pigeons are near.


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Thanks, Reti!

I have another question: Sometimes when I talk or sing to Daisy, s/he wiggles his wing or wings up and down. I think it is a sign of happiness, like a dog wagging its tail. What do you think? Have you seen a pigeon do that?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi Enid --

You haven't met me yet, but I've just finished reading this whole thread. I've been around pigeontalk for about 2 years, but hadn't been on much recently.

The wing-wiggle you describe is definitely a happy thing... young birds do that when their parents come near, and older birds do that for their mates. A few very lucky humans can elicit a wing-wiggle, too 

So glad that Daisy is so much better! Sounds like he had quite a brush with death there at first. You've done an amazing job with him or her (you never really know until one lays an egg!) I love it that you are so involved with Daisy.

As for the cooing -- I wouldn't worry about it. Some pigeons coo a lot, some don't. The hens often don't coo much at all, unless a male is present. 

I loved your photos of Daisy and Justin (and he does have stunning tattoos) -- and checked out your website....you do amazing work!!! It does have a Cindy Sherman-ish feel to it, but I find yours more compelling than hers. I loved the disaster series in particular, as it resonates with my feelings about media coverage to a tee. Wish I were in NY to see the photos in person. I also loved, loved the Coney Island shot with Daisy -- just utterly visually stunning, and yet sweet and almost naive in the way you describe some of his early tattoos as being... 

I know what you mean about never thinking you'd adopt a baby pigeon... I never thought so, either, and then two little babies were born outside the window where I lived, and nearly killed by the management when they were cleaning out the gutters -- I snapped them up right out of the nest, before the gutter-cleaner could get to them.

That's how I found this wonderful site... I needed a crash course in hand-raising babies. The third pij came about a year later, when my ex and I found her walking around in SF with a lame wing. Thankfully, FeralPigeon lives nearby, and diagnosed paratyphoid.... we rehabbed her with antibiotics and antifungals, and she became our third avian resident -- her wing never recovered enough to release her, plus she fell in love with the male I had, who is far too tame to release. 

#4 came by way of a local vet hospital -- a nearly pure white hen with a gunshot wound and a broken wing. More rehab, another pigeon, also not releasable due to prior injuries. 

Three more have been born to the aforementioned four... and I'm at capacity for sure (my hutch is indoors, and needs expanding to accomodate my two new babies.....) 

Anyhow, I ramble. 

Nice to meet you!

Zoe


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

Hi, Zoe.

Do you have seven pigeons total? That's so exciting! How sweet that two of them fell in love. I wish that Daisy could have a pigeon friend. Hopefully, I will be able to adopt another one next year. 

Thank you for complimenting my pictures! I'm hoping to take some new pictures of people in NYC who have rescued pigeons and put together a new series.

I'm glad to know that Daisy's lack of cooing isn't cause for arlarm. He's sitting on my belly as I type now, wagging his wing and starting to fall asleep. 

Love, Enid


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*Grunts! and Update on Daisy*

Hi, everyone!

Thank you for your personal message to my email address, Phil! I am so sorry for not checking in for a while. I've been busy working with some pigeon folks in NYC to try to defeat a proposed local law to ban pigeon feeding and administrative policy recommendations designed to reduce the number of pigeons. If you're interested in reading a rebuttal to anti-pigeon local legislation, you can see what I wrote here: http://www.citywildlifealliance.org/Felderrebuttal112607pm.pdf


Daisy is hanging in there. He still can't stand up and I worry that his feet may be getting weaker. He kicks and stretches his legs more than ever. But when I help him try to stand during his daily physical therapy exercises, he curls his feet like they hurt. 

He started making almost inaudible grunts this week. He sounds like a little pig! He wing wags so often. I think he is a happy little guy, even though he can't move around on his own. Has anyone seen the Pets with Disabilities calendar? I'm thinking he belongs in it along with the dogs on wheelchairs. 

He has stopped seizing or whatever was happening. Last week, I picked gobs of dry skin off of him and he seems to be scratching himself less. 

Still no tail feathers! He's growing one strange spiny feather on his rump, and it looks like it might blossom soon.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi enid, 



I wrote you from the New York 'Pigeon People' Web-Site..! So I have read the information there and the petition...


I signed the Petition...of course..!

I sure wish all of you the best of good out-comes with this..!

Top area of the web site...I wrote Al also...anyway, some of the options are a little obscure for most casual lookings...the 'petition' button and 'pictures' button and so on...be better if they were more contrasted or bold so people would see them.


Are you 'glistening' Daisy's Seeds with a little fresh, New bottle, Olive Oil?


This is very good for their Skin, and also aids them in assimilating various Vitamines in the rest of their Foods.


Bald areas from injury can sometimes stay naked for a long time for some reason, then, will fill in with Feathers again more or less out of the blue.

You could lightly slather the naked area with 'Neosporin' and work it in somewhat, as if it were 'hand cream' for chapped knuckles...if there are any 'Follicle Mites' there, it will suffocate them...but regardless, somehow this seems to help sometimes when bare areas have been bare a while and are not growing back their Feathers.


Post some pics..! I would like to see the 'spiney feather' that is growing out back there...



Wow...really, a 'Pigeons with disabilitys' Calandar would be a cool thing...


I have a little Publishing experience, what about you?


Phil
l v


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## enid (Aug 6, 2007)

*mites are the source of Daisy's "seizures"*

Hi, everyone.

Sorry it's been so long since I've posted. 

I finally figured out what Daisy's seizures are. He's got mites. I think that when they bite him hard, he thrashes around trying to get them off. 

I also think that's why he hasn't been growing tail feathers or very many feathers. He's got some bald spots still. 

I sprayed him with bird mite killer twice months ago and I thought I got rid of the problem. But then recently, I started noticing them in a big way. I sprayed him last week and that seems to have helped. 

I'm worried about the eggs. They're all over his vent feathers, head, and shoulder area. Is there a good way to get rid of them?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hmmm, I think Scatt or even Ivomec injectable would help. Sounds like he has it bad, poor baby.
I would try Scatt first. Don't know where you can buy it though. I am sure we have a few members who would know.

Reti


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Enid,

To wipe out a bad infestation of mites, you need to treat a second time 14 days later to kill any eggs that have hatched (and maybe again after another 14 days to catch any that were missed). I've not been impressed with the sprays' penetration of their feathers. I've had very good results with Ivermectin that you add to their water, which treats both external and internal parasites systemically.

Make sure you clean and treat the bird's living quarters, too. I use a light dusting of pyrethrin powder (the product for cats) every month or so to discourage any vermin.

Hope Daisy is soon happy and itch free!


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hi Enid,

I don't have any experience with mites -- glad others posted  Just wanted to add my compliments on what a wonderful job you've done with Daisy. I just finished reading this whole thread and it is amazing what he/she has been through.

I also followed all the work you did for opposing the NY ban on feeding pigeons -- your rebuttel was an excellent piece of work! You must have been going just non-stop then (bet you still are  ).

Hope the problem with mites goes away completely and that Daisy is mite-free soon!!

Dez

P.S. Did you ever find and move to another apartment? I remember you looking....


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