# Soontjen racing pigeons Australia



## cutter

BBP Soontjen Hen She won 1st club by 39 min 1st section 4th overall 300mile smash


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## cutter

*Soontjen Cock*

This cock won 1st club 3rd section 11th overall


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Are you from down under ? 

Are these your bird's pictures ?

The name of these pigeons rings a bell, but I will be honest, I don't know anything about them. Were they imported into Australia or were they developed in country ?

Thanks for sharing and posting the pictures.


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## cutter

A soontjen stock cock 1/2brother 1st club 1st section 17 overall fed Alll Age Derby 400 miles


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## cutter

Yes I race in Sydney.
The pigeons are mine I probably have the best of the Soontjens imported in Australia 
They are a Belgium pigeon and are the base of the Staff Van Reets they are regarded as the fastest pigeons in the world. I was lucky enough to get my stock from the importer I will post some more pictures


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## cutter

My race and stock lofts


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## SmithFamilyLoft

cutter said:


> Yes I race in Sydney.
> The pigeons are mine I probably have the best of the Soontjens imported in Australia
> They are a Belgium pigeon and are the base of the Staff Van Reets they are regarded as the fastest pigeons in the world. I was lucky enough to get my stock from the importer I will post some more pictures


WOW ! Fastest pigeons in the World ! 

At what distance are these the Fastest in the World ?


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## [MN]eXist^_^

The sootjens, mike ganus's bird the president is sootjens. Very good birds indeed.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> The sootjens, mike ganus's bird the president is sootjens. Very good birds indeed.


Gee...here I have been calling my birds Joep Koch based birds, and now you are telling me Sootjens ?  Since Joep Koch is the breeder of the bird, that Mike Ganus renamed "President"...where or how does the name Sootjens come in ?

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference to me, but I own direct children and numerous grandchildren and great children from President : http://ganusfamilyloft.com/president2.htm as well of course from others who I think can tear the wings off of these fine birds, but that is another story.


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## bloodlines_365

cutter said:


> Yes I race in Sydney.
> The pigeons are mine I probably have the best of the Soontjens imported in Australia
> They are a Belgium pigeon and are the base of the Staff Van Reets they are regarded as the fastest pigeons in the world. I was lucky enough to get my stock from the importer I will post some more pictures


fastest....... you think if this birds are base on staff van reets their not fast enough... maybe ten years ago....... or it depends on what condition and distance they are specialized to....( wal zoontjens) and (soontjeens) are deff... rigth


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## [MN]eXist^_^

I dont know if its an s or a z for soontjens but the sire and dam of the president are from him.Sire:Wal zoontjen's dam:half zoontjen's/joep. The s or z could probably be a big difference though


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## cutter

The Soontjens were bred by Jos Soontjen and no they are not (zootjens) in the years that he flew he was seldom beaten some of the best flyers in Belguim went to Jos Soontjen to put them across there own. Here in Australia ther were only 6 pair of the Soontjens imported back in 1998 now they are the most sort after pigeon in any sale bringing top dollar every time. They have won for me from 60 mile to 600 mile fast 2000meters per min down to as low as 400meters per min and un like all other imports to Australia they like the wind in there faces. Our north coast route is by far out toughest route with the birds flying over mountains for the first 300miles into head winds week after week the Jannseens turn there toes up by 200mile along with all the other imports the Soontjens just get better. Every flyer I have breed them for and gifted them to have won races and are the stand outs


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## [MN]eXist^_^

Thanks for the clarifacation always thought they were the same. Seems like the kind of birds everyone needs.


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## cutter

Jos Soontjen won 81 firsts in just 5 years of racing his birds were based on 3 main pigeons BELG 75 6353162 BBC Blaue De Wolf (a hen ) and BELG 81 6688022 BBH 

Some of the flyers that had them were
Pros Roosen
In 1992 Pros Roosen had a pigeon selected to represent Belgium in the Olympiade in Las Palmas in the sport middle distance class. This pigeon, ring number 90.5328321 whose name became 'Olympiade', ws bred from a daughter of 'Supercrack 327' when paired to 'Hond', wich was also the father of 'Magic star' the 1st ace middle distance pigeon of Belgium KBDB in 1994, bred by Pros Roosen and raced by Jaak Koninx.

'HOND'

Father of 'den Olympiade' Cat Sports Middle-distance Gran Canaria 1993, 'Magic Star' 1st Ace Pigeon Middle-distance KBDB 1994, Koninx Jaak, Zonhoven.




Sire of 'Hond' was 'Computer II' winnner of thirteen 1st prizes and 80 other prizes. He was also 1st ace pigeon in the Province, short distance, KBDB 1989; 2nd ace pigeon in the Province, short distance KBDB 1988; 5th ace pigeon of Belgium short distance KBDB 1988; 5th ace pigeon of Belgium short distance KBDB 1989 and 6th ace pigeon Provincial KBDB 1990. Dam of 'Hond' was a daughter of 'Computer I' wich was an ace pigeon of Belgium KBDB and was also ace pigeon BDS.
Both 'Computer I' and 'Computer II' have the same sire which was the famous 'Tom' of Jos Soontjens of Wommelgem from whom Pros Roosens purchased the best lines. Roosens purchased the best lines. 

Another outstanding pigeon for Pros Roosen was 'De Asduif' which in 1991 was the 1st Ace Middle Distance pigeon of the Province of Limburg and also 1st Ace pigeon middle distance of the LDS 2,000.
This crack pigeon also finds his origin in the Soontjens x 'Supercrack 327' bloodlines. His sire was 'De Raket' Which was an offspring of 'Computer I' and dam of 'De Asduif', was a daughter of 'Supercrack 327'.

When you read the list of prizes won by 'Supercrack 327' you will agree that he has earned the name 'Supercrack 327'. As with his and all the other birds listed these are single performaces without any duplication. I am of the opinion that 'Supercrack 327' is the best racing pigeon that has ever lived. I do not know of a pigeon with a better racing record than he has!

'Supercrack 327' also won, 1979 - 3rd Ace Pigeon Yearlings De Belgische Duivensport after loft mate 78.5174310; 1980 - 4th Ace Pigeon Mid-distance De Belgische Duivensport; 1982 - 1st Ace Pigeon Mid-distance De Reisduif, 2nd Ace Pigeon Mid-distance De Belgische Duivensport; 1983 - 2nd Ace Pigeon Mid-distance De Belgische Duivensport, 2nd Ace Pigeon Mid-distance Vlaams - Waals Fondclub, 3rd Ace Pigeon Mid-distance De Reisduif. He was co-winner of 1981 Golden Pigeon of Belgium, Superstar Middle-distance of Belgium - De Reisduif, Best Loft of Belguim, De Reisduif.

Jan Grondelaers 
1st National Argenton 93 
was a Soontjen x 

Some of the Soontjen pigeons 
Computer 2 13 x 1st
BELG 92 5040100 14 races 14 prizes 
Geshifte 22x1st 
Rambo 12 x 1st 
Flashy Jan produced over 20 winners 
Blue Jan 16 x 1st


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## Pegasus

cutter said:


> BBP Soontjen Hen She won 1st club by 39 min 1st section 4th overall 300mile smash


39 Minutes from 300 miles wow thats impressive...


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## [MN]eXist^_^

Think he meant 39 min ahead.


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## Alamo

I like the looks of the BCC in the 2nd picture.....I had a pigeon fancier from SALE,Australia(Victoria)... come to visit me last year...Been trying to find out what Association he flys with,so I could see how he is doing racing...Maybe you can help me out...Would you know what Club or Combine he is flying with ?? He flys under Padula Loft I think...I Forgot his first name...thanks...Alamo


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## LUCKYT

THAT is a HOT looking pair of racers! They have body and muscle, and the condition is GREAT! They give me goose bumps!, for real. Dave Plus he wrote 39 min. ahead.


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## LUCKYT

Cutter! those are about he best "typed" racers i have see in a long time. 
Please i know i will not be unimpressed how many birds competing? Dave


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## whitesnmore

I am curious as to how one can tell "Conditioning" by the look of a bird. I am aware of how to tell by handling.
Ken


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## hillfamilyloft

I have a bird down from a Ganus bird "Lady Luck" that is half Soontjens down from "Late Tom". She is also from a good Grondelars birds "Musketeer IV". My bird only has 1/8 Soontjens blood, so I cannot give you much imput here. He does breed winners though. 

Randy


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## g0ldenb0y55

whitesnmore said:


> I am curious as to how one can tell "Conditioning" by the look of a bird. I am aware of how to tell by handling.
> Ken


I am also curious....please give us some insight as to how you can tell the conditioning of a bird just by look alone....Thanks!


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## RodSD

cutter,

Welcome to the forum! It is nice to hear from someone down under. I really like your birds and your loft. The birds look nice and they perform as well. Your loft is lovely and I noticed that in Australia, many (if not most) loft have the front part open with screen. I suppose it has something to do with the weather?

rod


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## RodSD

If the bird looks fat usually it is not on top condition--just a guess. I know of no fat pigeons that are in top condition.


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## whitesnmore

I agree a fat pigeon cannot be in condition. The pictured pigeons are very nice looking birds. Thanks for the pictures!!


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## Crazy Pete

I'd like to see how they compete with David Clousing's birds, have any been sent to So Africa?


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## cutter

Thanks for the coments re my birds. To answer the questions that have been asked Re the flyer in Sale (Victoria) there are 3 main federations in the Victoria I will do some checking with a friend of mine from down there and let you know. I race in a diffrent state Sydney ( NSW ) we have 1 federation covering the hole of Sydney our boundry is 80km East to West X 100km North to South there are between 350 to 400 flyers flying every weekend May till October. We are permitted to send 20 birds per week on the truck on average there are between 4000 to 8000 birds liberated depending on the race. On the weekend the BBP hen won there were 4400 birds sent from 357 flyers . Because of the size of the federation we fly club ( ours is 11 flyers ), Section (average 70 per section ) then overall. I fly in the western section and am short marker every route. We can only take a prize with the first bird timed no other times are read unless its a pool bird or in a special race eg Raffle Ring Breeders Plate ect 
The birds have to race over the Great Dividing Range which runs from Victoria to the Queensland border approximatly 1500km up to 2000m in parts and 50km wide full of preditors I will post some pics to give you an idea what the birds do over here 

Most lofts in Sydney are open at the front and face North to get the winter sun. It gets hot during summer with high humidity. Last week we had 4 straight days of 40+ deg. 

Late Tom BELG 80 6786080 BB is one of the main cocks in the Soontjen lines along with his brother Geshifte BELG 78 6767881 22x1st they were by BELG 75 6353162 x BLAUE DE WOLF. I can go into more detail re how this family was formed if anyone is interested.
Re sending bird to South Africa no pigeons have been imported or exported from Australia over the last couple of years due to bird flu. few Australian pigeons are sent there due to the time of year we breed.

Below is a picture of a liberation of our birds


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## fastpitch dad

You have some nice looking birds and those are some good pictures of the course and release.


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## LUCKYT

Condition is a relative term. There is breeding condition, racing condition.ect.
It is right to say you must handle a racer to tell its condition for racing, BUT... Overall health is the most vital part of conditioning. a racer can be sick, and with handling, still "feel" in condition such as when a bird is not well, and it is a new problem that has not effected its "form" yet.
I always judge condition in all forms visually first, I.E., is it alert?, how does it stand on the perch, visually does it have a bloom to it? Does its look like it is ready to ROCK and ROLL? Is the cere bright? are the feet clean and plenty of blood flow. I use this criteria, when i am picking a bird for any reason,breeding, racing or if i am going to by the bird, or even allow it in my lofts.
Again, "racing condition" follows health Which in my opinion can be first picked up on visually. I have messed up by shipping a racer that was in "form" but i missed a visual clue to declining health, and messed the bird up for the season.Or lost him for good, never knowing why. 
Remember "form" does not vanish the hour a bird is starting to become ill, it can take days to become affected, at least most of the time.
An example, an athelete that catches the flu does not lose the benefit of his training, just his ability to perform to the best of his ability, at that time.
You can not have "form" without condition, but you can have condition without form. Form being the way a bird handles, "feels", in your hand, and some fliers look for the little blood "spot, Ect. 
JMHO, Dave P.S. I you want a good example of "condition" study the photos of those "Aussie" birds!


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## hillfamilyloft

I am going to point out the obvious here. The birds are or were at one time in condition. Why, you ask? Because the won the frigin' race.

Randy


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## LUCKYT

The question was, how do you tell "condition" by looking at the bird.
Yes they won the race, but if he had showed a picture of some "out of condition" bird i would have asked him when was the photo taken? 
I will say it again, a bird can be in condition, and not be ready to fly a race. "Form" is when a bird is in "condition" And has the MUSCLE to fly a race.
"Form" follows "condition", which indicates health and vigor.
HEALTH= condition
CONDITION + EXERCISE = FORM. JMOVHO, Dave


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## hillfamilyloft

I do realize you need the bird in hand to tell condition, but that also seems unlikely because not many are experts in this regard either. It seems like this post is going the way of many where too many express their expertise on what usally remains theory. From time to time, I come across a picture that speakes for itself. Yes it is hard to tell a birds worth by a picture alone. Much like some say they can judge a bird by its eye. But a friend of mine possesses this bird. In my mind a specimine. Whether in form or condition or not a picture tells a story.


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## Guest

I agree some birds are beautiful in appearance and feel but it doesnt mean they will win a race lol


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## hillfamilyloft

That being said, If a bird looks good and wins the race then can we then deduce that it was in condition, if and only if we took the picture prior to putting the bird in the basket? Mind you without handling the bird. 


If anyone is interested in the owner of the bird, he is Ken Easley. His bird Monticello Queen won champion bird this year for our Los Lobos RPC. She won the 250 from Monticello and was 6th from Moab the 300. She also looks in good form and condition in the picture. My DRO 1410 was 2 minutes in front of her at 5th in the Moab race. A bird also in condition. 

His Page
http://nmracingpigeons.homestead.com/

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

A funny thing happened the other day. I went to a friends loft a few hours after he had another fancier come over and grade his reserve breeders. He was going to put a few more pairs together from the lot and get rid of the rest. He asked me to go into the loft and to tell him what I thought. He gave me a few to handle. I then looked over at a nice hen walking around the floor. I then without handling the bird, said that is your best hen in here. He caught her and handed her to me. She felt great. He offered her to me, because she was not chosen by the grader. I told him to breed from her and we will see how she does. My best looking hen this year bred ACE a North Sectional Combine winner. Funny how birds that look in good form, cary themselves well, have that sparkle in their eye, and catch your attention are usually the best breeders, racers and all around best birds. And also feel best in the hand. I will keep you posted on what the little hen produces for him. 

Randy


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## RodSD

"Funny how birds that look in good form, cary themselves well, have that sparkle in their eye, and catch your attention are usually the best breeders, racers and all around best birds."

Funny you mentioned that. I feel the same. I am beginning to call it "stock sense." Obviously I assume something first and test my own theory and learn as I go along. I am trying to "hone" my selection process through practice of guessing and testing. I say to myself that bird looks good and probably a good bird, then I test fly them. I am 60% accurate and 40% wrong which mean I still sucks! Or basically 50/50 of being right or wrong which from statistical standpoint I am useless. In other words it is a random guess that turned out right, but not valid enough to be taken seriously. Oh well.....


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## cutter

A couple more Soontjen pictures 

BBP Hen 1st club, 8th section ,22nd overall 401 flyers 7693 birds 200miles 

BC Hen 3rd club 5th section 250miles ,1st club 6th section 350miles , 2nd club 8th section 400miles


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## Alamo

I guess I`m wrong about what I thought "Condition" and "Form" is when talking about racing pigeons...All my life,I was told this...By pigeon people,including my father.....
CONDITION >> This is the PHYSICAL part in getting a bird to win races.......
FORM >> This is the MENTAL part of getting a pigeon to win races......
They are two seperate but EQUAL evaluations to get a pigeon to the winners circle...
I have had birds in top physical condition for a 500 mile race...They did very well....I have had pigeons that were in top physical condition,and FORM,and they both WON 500 mile races...There is a difference...The mental aspect is as important as the physical...That`s why Widowhood is used,and Natural/Nest Condition is used when racing OLD BIRDS...You have to motivate the MIND of the pigeon...You can FEEL CONDITION with your hands..You can SEE FORM with your eyes....They cannot be switched by the owner....The BCC cock in the 2nd picture that I like,is a visual acceptance that it LOOKS LIKE A VG PIGEON....I cannot tell condition or form in this picture....I can put picture a VG pigeon of mine,on a post here,and I would guess 50% would think it`s a racer,and 50% would think it`s a stock bird...And the same would be about it`s condition etc...Alamo


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## LUCKYT

Well i guess it is local use of words, form by definition refers to shape, muscle tone, Ect.The way i was taught, and everyone gets info. from different sources, mind you. Condition is overall health and vigor, which can be judged greatly just by looking at the bird. Motivation is something you cannot touch, maybe i should have stated it another way:
Health leads to condition.
Condition + exercise = FORM
Form, plus good motivation = good race results. 
Remember, it is all just my opinion, and experience. Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft

OK,

I found some of these pigeons. See: http://www.myrtlelofts.com/day.htm

If you read through their web site, these Soontjens are excellent at sprints. 

"Gary is the first to admit the Soontjens are fantastic pigeons, but only at distances up to around 250 miles, they will achieve 350 to 400 miles on fast days with high velocities."


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## Alamo

LUCKYT....my thought is;
Health + Exersise = Condition...........
Mental awareness by setting up(on Eggs/or baby) the race bird if flying Natural OR Widowhood= Form......I never thought the word FORM was used in conjunction with body shape or weight or anything to do with the pigeon`s BODY....I allways thought it meant the Pigeon`s state of MIND !!!!........Maybe in New York,where I came from,that`s the way they interperted these two words,as far as racing pigeons were concerned......Alamo


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## cutter

The Soontjens may be sprinters in the Europe or on quick days over futher distances on quick days but I have found the opposte here in Australia they have taken to the way I train and I train hard and set pigeons for races and work on 1000mpm being the norm the Soontjens perform best at between 500mpm to 1200mpm and will back up week after week the BCC ( second picture page 1 ) was time 3 times from 3 races all from 300miles on consecutive weekends all races were at velicities of between 1000mpm and 1150mpm The BBP hen won at 1000mpm only 80 birds home on the day in the federation from 4400 sent that was her second race another hen I have now in stock was timed 4 x 4 races fatest vel 1950 mpm from 450miles two weeks later I sent only two birds to the 550 mile velocity 890mpm she won club only bird in race time 6th section from 63 flyers. The BCH above never had a velocity above 900mpm, The are of training pigeons to fly all day then back up the next has been sadly lost over the years as flyers want to win every race therefor train to sprint. I pick the races I want to win and set the birds for them.


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## LUCKYT

Alamo there a lot of local differences in terms used to get across what we are talking about.
Health= condition, meaning in my experience, is ready to breed, or show.
Condition, which only comes with health lets you take the bird to the next level, with exercise, I.E. training, loft flying, ect. It will come into racing "form"
Some birds, it comes easier too , some have to be really worked to achieve it. 
I wish i could find some websites, that show the breasts of birds that are in form, and those that is not. A bird, (in my opinion) that is in form can be told, by carefully moving the feathers to each side, so as to get a look at the skin on the breast bone. If the bird is "pumped' it will not have much dander on it, the color will look as tho it is infused with blood, indicating circulation. 
There are excepts tho.
condition, can be confused by feathering, you can bring a bird up to a state of condition, but it's feathering will not show it until it goes thru it's next Moult.
Dave.


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## bloodlines_365

okay... i have some for you..... wait ill look for it..


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## LUCKYT

Cutter, all i can say, THAT is a rough race course!!! LOL! Even sprint "strains" can do good at other distances. IT is also the single bird, and training, that makes the difference. I was known for doing good in long races, the harder the better, (HVR'S) I did, without trying have a few young that did real good on short races. Dave


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## LUCKYT

Bloodlines 365, YOU are good!


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## bloodlines_365

LUCKYT said:


> Alamo there a lot of local differences in terms used to get across what we are talking about.
> Health= condition, meaning in my experience, is ready to breed, or show.
> Condition, which only comes with health lets you take the bird to the next level, with exercise, I.E. training, loft flying, ect. It will come into racing "form"
> Some birds, it comes easier too , some have to be really worked to achieve it.
> I wish i could find some websites, that show the breasts of birds that are in form, and those that is not. A bird, (in my opinion) that is in form can be told, by carefully moving the feathers to each side, so as to get a look at the skin on the breast bone. If the bird is "pumped' it will not have much dander on it, the color will look as tho it is infused with blood, indicating circulation.
> There are excepts tho.
> condition, can be confused by feathering, you can bring a bird up to a state of condition, but it's feathering will not show it until it goes thru it's next Moult.
> Dave.


i dont know if you already read this.......hope this will help....http://www.tricityhoming.net/QUEJADO LOFT/condition_and_form_for_racing_pi.htm


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## LUCKYT

That is what i was talking about. The throat can tell you the same thing, BUT in my opinion it is is more stressful, to force a birds mouth open then look at the breast. Unless you are doing it on race day, the bird will get it's breast feathers "back" in place LONG before a race. Dave


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## RodSD

I have seen and read that link before. It is awesome as always. That is the advantage of being in a forum. We can help each another.


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## LUCKYT

Does any one at all catch my point? Dave


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## Alamo

LUCKYT,I agree with alot of what you have said here...In the last YB race of 2008 for me,I made a fellow club member handle 2 pigeons of mine that I was shipping...He said the birds handled real well,and would not be surprised if they both won their races the next day...One bird was in our combine`s regular race,and the other was in a Auction Race...The Auction race was released 1/2 hr before the regular race...The fellow club member who handled the birds is one of the best in our combine,and flys OB`s and YB`s...The club member was 1st club 4th combine the next day...I was 2nd club,5th combine with the bird he handled.....In the Auction race,I took 2nd with my 1st bird,the one he handled...As you can see,he judged the birds by what he felt in hand...I knew the birds had pink throats,and flesh,and their keel was white...As for FORM,the way I see/use the term,I knew nothing...I fly YB`s natural,to the perch...I can only see the birds in the loft,mingling with their loft mates...I can tell they are healthy,and full of energy...They seem happy,and maybe that`s what I can call FORM I guess in the YB section...In OB`s,I can see how protective a bird can be in the nest box etc...How they 
act when outside the loft flying,and how they act towards me...One of my best cocks used to walk all over my back in the loft when I was cleaning up...When he did this,I knew he would have a good result that Sunday racing...To ME,that was a sure sign he was in FORM...I cannot explain it any better then what I have just written here in the last couple of sentences....I would think you and others have heard of Art Hees...He lives and flys down in the Tampa area of Florida...He had told a similar story about one of his great racing pigeons...That`s what he was trying to explain in an articule,as I have here,what to look for before you ship a bird,that you might want to put your hard earned $$$ on !!!What he was looking for is FORM !!!....Without Health + Exercise = Condition,you cannot achive FORM...In humans,I beleive it is reversed...With a strong will to do good,a Human Being will exercise,eat well,etc to get into condition to say Run a 10 mile race next month...Using our mental toughness (FORM),to get into shape,(Condition) to win the race...As for me,my mental toughness in LONG GONE !! hahahahaha !!!............Alamo


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## RodSD

You can be in condition, but not necessarily on form. But when you are on form, you are also conditioned. Make sense? All those, however, is not guarantee to win during a race. I think how we define stuff is the one that confuses us. That is why I love math---you can only have one definition.

I wonder if we can clear the confusion if we substitute the word "healthy" for condition and "shape" for form.


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## LUCKYT

Good point Rod, it would make it simpler for some.
I will state it one last time.
Health creates condition, (can be seen by eye)
Condition plus exercise = FORM, or shape what ever you want to call it.(must handle bird to really tell).
FORM plus the bird being motivated, I.E. mate, food what ever, = best chance for that bird to win the race.
BUT, if the bird has been flown to hard, the form might show for a day or two, but the condition lost, and you stand the chance of screwing up a good bird.
I know, I have done it. Dave P.S. Rod, sorry, i hate MATH!!!! LOL!


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## pigeon_racer

*Healty-shape-motivation*

Alamo,

Being Healthy and in shape only gets you part way there. When you were writing about your cock bird walking on your back while cleaning. This is handling at it's best. When you know your birds well enough to be able to recognize things that they do around the loft when they feel their best and act like they could fly through a brick wall without knocking a feather out of place. This is what Art Hees was talking about, the art of observation around the loft. When you notice a paticular behavior from a bird and it coincides with their better race performances you have found your key for that individual bird. The only thing that will stop that bird froming possibly winning for you will be the winds along the race course and your loft position in relation to the wind. Drag is not a factor because your bird will be in front, that's when lots of short (30 mile) tosses around the clock during road training make the difference. Once the bird recognizes its landmarks, it locks on and turns on the gas!! I think you are well on your way to being a great handler, good luck!

Ralph


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## Alamo

LUCKYT and PIGEON RACER...Good job explaining your thoughts here...I love to read the articules on Art Hees,and any other great pigeon handler,on how they get their birds ready to race...And,I truly beleive Art ,in his answers to questions on how he does it,is telling it 100% true to task...He is not afraid of helping US at all...He knows his business with the birds,and knows HIS birds very well...I was told many years ago to keep good records when flying the birds...In my flying log book,I can go back to ANY race I have flown,and tell you what the bird was set up for,as far as how old the eggs or babies were when shipped...If I was going to set up a pair for a 500 miler,I would go back in the book and see what the birds did racing,and make note of what nest condition was used...If you see, for an example a cock is really wound up when his eggs wers 3 days old,which I did have a cock as such,he was a terror when racing at 3 day old eggs..His hen like 10 to 12 day old eggs,so I had the cock on 3 day eggs one weekend,and the next weekend the Hen was ready to rock and roll...I only keep 10 to 12 pair of OB flyers,but I still have to rely on my book...Only the yearlings, that are on the race team,have to be watched closely,to see if I can get a bead on them in the first 5 races or so...Then I can maybe have a small chance I can get it right for them on the 500 to 600 mile races...Whether we call it Form to Condition,or Condition to Form,the Health/Exercise/Mental aspects are all interwound to getting the pigeon to the winners circle....I think alot of the newer flyers, on board here, learned a little from our posts here on this subject...It would be a great help also if they can find the 5 part articules on Art Hees,and read them OVER and OVER as I do...Another great articule was one from Bob Prisco out of the New York area...Both his and Art`s articules were in the Racing Pigeon Digest ....The Bob Prisco articule is in the December 15th,2007 book..The Art Hees Part V is in the same book...I beleive the 1st four of Arts were in the previous magazines,leading up to and ending in the Dec 15 book........Alamo


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## bloodlines_365

Alamo said:


> LUCKYT and PIGEON RACER...Good job explaining your thoughts here...I love to read the articules on Art Hees,and any other great pigeon handler,on how they get their birds ready to race...And,I truly beleive Art ,in his answers to questions on how he does it,is telling it 100% true to task...He is not afraid of helping US at all...He knows his business with the birds,and knows HIS birds very well...I was told many years ago to keep good records when flying the birds...In my flying log book,I can go back to ANY race I have flown,and tell you what the bird was set up for,as far as how old the eggs or babies were when shipped...If I was going to set up a pair for a 500 miler,I would go back in the book and see what the birds did racing,and make note of what nest condition was used...If you see, for an example a cock is really wound up when his eggs wers 3 days old,which I did have a cock as such,he was a terror when racing at 3 day old eggs..His hen like 10 to 12 day old eggs,so I had the cock on 3 day eggs one weekend,and the next weekend the Hen was ready to rock and roll...I only keep 10 to 12 pair of OB flyers,but I still have to rely on my book...Only the yearlings, that are on the race team,have to be watched closely,to see if I can get a bead on them in the first 5 races or so...Then I can maybe have a small chance I can get it right for them on the 500 to 600 mile races...Whether we call it Form to Condition,or Condition to Form,the Health/Exercise/Mental aspects are all interwound to getting the pigeon to the winners circle....I think alot of the newer flyers, on board here, learned a little from our posts here on this subject...It would be a great help also if they can find the 5 part articules on Art Hees,and read them OVER and OVER as I do...Another great articule was one from Bob Prisco out of the New York area...Both his and Art`s articules were in the Racing Pigeon Digest ....The Bob Prisco articule is in the December 15th,2007 book..The Art Hees Part V is in the same book...I beleive the 1st four of Arts were in the previous magazines,leading up to and ending in the Dec 15 book........Alamo


in addition to those names...... pete de weerd is the one im looking for...... i know he has some good writing article for health and racing.....


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## g0ldenb0y55

A lot of good reading on this thread guys! Thanks!


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## Kal-El

I think "form" is a micocausem of "condition". An older flyer once told me that birds may look and feel great, but they won't necessarily always perform to their maximum potential because they are not in form. Form is like peak condition. Condition can last for a couple of months, but form will only last a few weeks. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I was told.


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## RodSD

Kal-El,
I feel that I noticed that too on my birds. They seemed to have attend peak condition (form?). Surprisingly not all my birds come into that stage at the same time. But when you know it, they look really ready--as if they can conquer anything. But I notice that it only last only 1 week for me, not weeks. So form is the highest peak of condition. In bodybuilding it is pretty obvious because once you past it, you don't look good anymore, but flat.


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## whitesnmore

bloodlines_365 said:


> i dont know if you already read this.......hope this will help....http://www.tricityhoming.net/QUEJADO LOFT/condition_and_form_for_racing_pi.htm


This is exactly what I am talking about by handling. A pigeon picture such as we have at the beginning of this thread will not show the signs of this. This is only achieved by handling. Anyone who can look at a pigeon PICTURE and tell at what stage a birds "condition" (or health) is, is in the wrong business as they would become instant millionaires overnite with the likes of ganus and other big money racers. I do have Jack Barkel's Eye sign video and all of these things are discussed. For someone to dispute I would challenge them to produce their results up against his. Your eye is only going to tell you the obvious---Wow that bird looks good, it has muscle, it stands ready, and it is not in the molt and looks to have had a bath and decent care. Condition can be seen but not without handling the pigeon and observing certain details that a PICTURE will not reveal. Convince yourself of anything else and you are kidding yourself. I dare say I could send you pictures of 3 of my birds and no one would pick out the Hall of Fame bird just by the picture!! 
Ken


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## bloodlines_365

whitesnmore; I could send you pictures of 3 of my birds and no one would pick out the Hall of Fame bird just by the picture!!
Ken[/QUOTE said:


> okay...... post it..... then i would tell you which one is it????? you be surprise..


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## Alamo

WHITESNMORE,...A champion pigeon stands out from the group,even if the group as a whole are very good++ pigeons...I would not be surprised if the experienced pigeon flyers here can pick out the champ !!! I have confidence they can...My dad,when he and my mom moved to West Virginia,after a few days,we went out to my lofts,and he picked out my 2 best breeding pairs,and my best 2 cocks on my flying team...He also picked out the children from the 2 best breeding pairs...He did make one observation which surprised me...He picked out the best breeding cock right away,but said it was not HIS type of pigeon,that he likes...Now that is what I call being a true pigeon man....Even though HE DID NOT LIKE the bird,he knew it was a #1 breeder..The bird produced a daughter that won a 500 mile combine race,and a grandson won a 200 mile combine race with 2022 birds as a YB,and the next year won the 500 Mile combine race....I don`t know if I could pick out the best pigeon,if I don`t like the looks/type of pigeon that it is...I guess I am not as astute as my dad was, in finding the best one in the group,if the group is NOT the type of pigeon that I like....But if I like them all,I think I can pick out the best 1 or 2 birds......Alamo


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## whitesnmore

OK just for fun let me know which is the good pigeons.
Ken


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## whitesnmore

Couldnt get the last ones on so here it is.


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## LUCKYT

LOl! from one picture? one picture is hard to tell, but i like guessing can i send you a P.M. I want to PLAY!! Dave,


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## fastpitch dad

I'm going with #3....for me it's a guess forsure,still trying to figure all this out.
What kind of fish is that in the background.


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## LUCKYT

What! MORE pics, LOL! i had made my choice! Dave


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## LUCKYT

#1 looks hot, but i like the length on the body on #2 #4 has attitude. 
FROM ONE PIC. no way to tell anything from one pic BUT my guess is 1, 3, and the last one, I would guess #1 Dave.


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## LUCKYT

YOU cheated LOL! you said three!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

I vote for any of them that have some red in them !!!.......


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## LUCKYT

HEY! It is clear yo like reds! LOL!


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## LUCKYT

Well i like guessing LOL! 1 is cock 2 is hen, 3 is hen, 4 is cock, 5 is cock. You cannot "FEEL" condition, only "form" final stage in preparing a racer. Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55

I'm no expert by any means but I'm going with #2 (t-pattern). How much do you want for the white saddle looking one!j/k....... He is awesome looking!


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## SmithFamilyLoft

LUCKYT said:


> HEY! It is clear yo like reds! LOL!


I do, but it is also an inside joke.....


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## g0ldenb0y55

We need to have more games like this one!


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## LUCKYT

Warren, it is it is not nice keeping secrets, SO is it the hen in the nest bowl? Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55

you're not alone Warren.....I'm partial to reds too! I only have 5 birds and 2 of them are red!


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## whitesnmore

You guys are great sports. Glad to make you all laugh. Warren, No reds in these remember I said only one of my good ones. i would have had to take half the lofts pics if I took pics of your reds.
It is all in fun. I know what everyone is saying about picking out the nice looking birds and yes I cheated. The Grizzle is a breeder out of Ganus and the verdict is not out on him yet. This year will hopefully tell. He has 2 little ones in the nest now. 1 has never flown. Another breeder. That leaves the other 3 and they are all three ACE pigeons with no. 3 being the HOF bird. 
That is a 6 and 1/2 pound Walleye I caught in my backyard last summer.


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## whitesnmore

Ok now my turn to play. Someone else post pictures.


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## whitesnmore

Dave, The one one the nest is out of Warrens stock it is one of the first birds I got and she breeds winners every year.!!!


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## LUCKYT

AHH! I knew there was something about the red comment. LOL! DAVE
O.K. enough small talk, what about the sexes? Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55

LOL....okay now it makes sense....that hen was Warrens bird. 

Ken, I have my eye on that Ganus bird of yours! Stud oozzzes out of him like no ones business. If you ever get tired of him drop me a line!


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## whitesnmore

Dave, You got 100% correct. I hope someone else post pics so I get a chance to guess. It wasnt too fair the way I set everyone up with the statements "Pick the good one" "No one can pick a good bird by pictures"  But it shows everyone is a good sport.


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## whitesnmore

Henry, You should see the hen he is breeding with. A beautiful mostly white with red flecking. She is a Recessive Red Mueleman. I will let you know if I decide to let him go.
Ken


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## bloodlines_365

ohhh man...... they already played the guessing game...... for my point i would say the one pair and the first picture female....  danny


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## LUCKYT

Sorry, i still like #1 LOL! Dave


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## fastpitch dad

They are all great looking birds ....but I'm staying with #3


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## LUCKYT

I guess you do not need a voodoo pendulmy thing to sex dem pidgies!
Dave


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## RodSD

I like #1 and #2. I doubt #3 flew like in that condtion to win. I like this game. Maybe we should have a guessing game post every week. We probably can include eye-sign, too. LOL!


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## LUCKYT

Well, i think she is in condition. not "racing condition" but breeding condition.(He had better be breeding out of her!) I think after what that bird has achieved,our friend would be NUTS, to let her out to fly. Hens seem, to me at least, harder to get a pic. were they show their best, unless posed. Dave


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## Alamo

OK..Here goes my 2cents worth of opinions..............
Pic #1...BCH.....Wide back & short secondaries means long distance pigeon...Looks very smart...Good expression......
Pic #2 DC...bad photo,like to see the bird standing up,like #1 bird.....
Pic #3...Dilute Splash....Never cared for dilute color birds..Usally they don`t fly well,BUT could breed winners....
Pic #4 BB splash C...Like the looks of him..Have one here looks like his brother...Flew well as a YB for me last year....
Pic #5...Splash Cock...I would say this is a Long Distance bad weather pigeon...Looks tuff and determined in his expression...

If I was buying one of these 5 birds,I would go with #1...Because I value a good HEN over a good COCK...My 2nd pick is #5.........I wonder How I did ???.........Alamo


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## LUCKYT

#1 is a cock. #5 is a white flight, white feathers fray to easy for long distance JMHO. Dave


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## Alamo

The last time I was in on a contest,that by the EYES only,you had to pick out the winners,I didn`t do so good picking the short distance pigeons...There were I think 25 or more eyes to choose from...So there were alot of good looking eyes with outstanding eyesign...In picking out the eyes from combine winners at long distance,with 50 or more guys in the contest,I picked out the best 3 birds in order of finish in the 500 mile race....
I like the #1 bird in WHITESNMORE picture alot...If it`s a cock,I have to lower my opinion,because I don`t like henny looking cocks...If it`s a hen,I love her !!!.......Alamo


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## LUCKYT

LOOKS like a hen? Sorry met a lot of eye sign guys even won some bets, it mi works Maybe for breeding(spreading out the gene pool, not convinced at all on flying.


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## bloodlines_365

no#1 is a hen....... looks like one of those zoontjens janssen,,, meduim to small but build for distance...


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## LUCKYT

Well then Whitesandmore did not tell me the truth..... Dave


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## fastpitch dad

I'm still staying with #3....I think he said they were all ACE pigeons and 3 was HOF bird.


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## whitesnmore

LUCKYT said:


> Well i like guessing LOL! 1 is cock 2 is hen, 3 is hen, 4 is cock, 5 is cock. You cannot "FEEL" condition, only "form" final stage in preparing a racer. Dave


Sorry I must have been overtired. i miss read your post. It is hen, cock, hen, cock, cock.


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## whitesnmore

RodSD said:


> I like #1 and #2. I doubt #3 flew like in that condtion to win. I like this game. Maybe we should have a guessing game post every week. We probably can include eye-sign, too. LOL!


Rod, #3 was released with the flock last week after being in for the winter and she was the only bird to fly 1 hr on her own with no flagging. She always looks this way and was the ugliest bird in the loft and I tried to lose her. It seems everytime I get one that is ugly they always do the best!!!!!! She was pulled after the 8th race as a YB last year and is being bred from right now. She is allowed out to loft fly. Crazy maybe but I dont like prisoners.


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## whitesnmore

Alamo said:


> OK..Here goes my 2cents worth of opinions..............
> Pic #1...BCH.....Wide back & short secondaries means long distance pigeon...Looks very smart...Good expression......
> Pic #2 DC...bad photo,like to see the bird standing up,like #1 bird.....
> Pic #3...Dilute Splash....Never cared for dilute color birds..Usally they don`t fly well,BUT could breed winners....
> Pic #4 BB splash C...Like the looks of him..Have one here looks like his brother...Flew well as a YB for me last year....
> Pic #5...Splash Cock...I would say this is a Long Distance bad weather pigeon...Looks tuff and determined in his expression...
> 
> If I was buying one of these 5 birds,I would go with #1...Because I value a good HEN over a good COCK...My 2nd pick is #5.........I wonder How I did ???.........Alamo


#5 is a sprint bird-- Janssen based from President lines. 
#1 is a houben bird-- Breeder of tough weather birds in the 900-1200 YPM range out to 350 miles
#2 Houben/Van Loon cross--Good distances from 200-350 ACE pigeon
#3 HOF bird and flew all distances excelled from 200-350 in tough weather races. Siblings also fly excellent. Houben/van loon
#4 ace Pigeon status from all distances 200-300 miles Houben/ van loon


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## Alamo

WHITESNMORE,The #1 pic BCH,she might be a Janssen,but I would put $$ on her that she could win at 500 miles....My main base in my pigeons are Janssens,and I crossed in one Stassart and one Sion to the Janssens,and if the weather is bad,I know I will get a few clocked in race time,if not win...You wrote that #1 is a tuff weather bird at 350 miles...I think she can do 500 miles with 900 to 1100 ypm speeds....That`s a VG pigeon,that I can only use my pigeon sence,and not by handling..Would love to have her in my hand right now,to see if my eyes are telling me the truth....Alamo


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## g0ldenb0y55

whitesnmore said:


> Henry, You should see the hen he is breeding with. A beautiful mostly white with red flecking. She is a Recessive Red Mueleman. I will let you know if I decide to let him go.
> Ken


Please Do!


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## whitesnmore

Alamo, You may very well be right about the 500 miles. i will be flying OB's for the first time this year and we have 2 races at 500 and some of her young from the last couple of years will be flying this OB season. i will let you know how we do. Come on up to Chicago (if you can handle our below 0wind chills today) and check her out in person. You're always welcome to come visit us up here.
Ken


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## Alamo

WHITESNMORE,if this wind doesn`t quit,I`ll be blown up to you in no time at all !! hahahaha!!! It`s not exactly summer here yet in WVa also...Good luck flying the hen...If she wins at 500 miles,or even comes close,I`ll be up to Chicago to bring her back to WVa !!! hahaha!!!! ............Alamo


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## Guest

whitesnmore said:


> Couldnt get the last ones on so here it is.











I like these two cocks of yours alot myself... cant wait to see your youngins off that ganus bird and his mate..


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## RodSD

Whitesnmore,
Thanks for the clarification. That #3 is a keeper then!

I also noticed in my loft that pretty birds are not necessarily good performing. They are pretty alright, but pretty under performing. My hawks love them, too--pretty to eat.


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## Guest

RodSD said:


> Whitesnmore,
> Thanks for the clarification. That #3 is a keeper then!
> 
> I also noticed in my loft that pretty birds are not necessarily good performing. They are pretty alright, but pretty under performing. My hawks love them, too--pretty to eat.



I have to agree with that , the hawks love to eat all my pretty birds too


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## ste1972

*sootjen fastest in world*

not nowadays in the sprints the de meyers win every time over the sootjens
still they come a close second in my pen i fly in westmids and these de meyers win every week

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/sdc13488.jpg/

pic of de meyer


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## eagle79

are soontjen pigeons jannson based pigeons


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## hillfamilyloft

eagle79 said:


> are soontjen pigeons jannson based pigeons


Tried to research for you. All I can find is everything goes back to the pairing: Late Tom x Chequered Verherstraeten. Find the lineage to those two birds and you will have your answer. Soontjens were sprint birds. Pros Roosen bred his famous Computer I and Computer II from the Soontjens. Other notables with Sootnjens birds are the Herbots.


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## Jose colon

Me gustaría saber si tienes algo de soontjen 
o leen boer


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