# Squab's toes curled



## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Hi all. This site is a wonderful resource and I have found lots of helpful info here in the past without even needing to register. However, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any info anywhere on this issue - please forgive me if I have overlooked it, I'm not sure what the proper description should be. 

I'm an aussie wildlife rehabber, I get native pigeons from time to time and have managed to raise a few without any trouble. I have a pair of nestlings (almost all pin feathers are out now) of unknown species at this stage. We have 22 native species here, but I'm not convinced these guys are native, and have had trouble with ID so far - but I'm raising them regardless. 

I think there may have been a gap in hatching times, as one is quite significantly larger and more developed than the other. I'm crop feeding with a proper squab formula, both are feeding and pooping voraciously, crops emptying well etc. Initially they both had toes that were flimsy and curled over, but as the days went by, they started to strengthen and straighten. The bigger one's feet starightened up before the little guy, but I figured this was probably just a developmental delay initially. 

Then the little guy became quiet and listless. Wasn't interested in fighting for a feed like usual, and his crop was quite slow for a day or two. I did some research, got the impression he may have been slightly dehydrated and definitely lacked vitamin D, as I hadn't had them exposed to sunlight. So I gave electrolytes and warmth and direct exposure to sunlight, and the result was almost immediate - back to himself within a day. 

Everything else seems fine now, except his feet still have not straightened. It's been a week now, so I don't think it's just a matter of being behind his brother. I can straighten the toes without any apparent discomfort to him, and he moves about ok, but on bent/curled toes. I'm assuming it's a deficiency of some kind, but what could it be? The formula I'm feeding is designed for parrots/pigeons etc and supposedly nutritionally complete, and the other squab is thriving on the same formula, same consistency etc. 

Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Sorry it's so long, just trying to include all details, as I don't have a camera here at this point to show you photos. 

Kind regards, 
Jess


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jess,



Can you post some images of the two youngsters?


And, some images of their respective fresh poops?


Indeed, Columbiform Babys typically need between meal watering sessions...they are glad to drink Volentarily if their Beak is softly held at the sides, and guided to tepid Water.


They might be needing a little more Calcium/Magnesium in their diet, which the Vitamin D would aid in their assimilating, for their rapidly growin Nerves and Muscles and Bones and so on.


Might be a Salmonella condition which happens to be manifesting more in the smaller slower-to-develop one...whuic could be effecting his Toes/Feet...



Best wishes,


Phil
L v


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

My avian vet has had some success with actually putting on what she calls a 'snowshoe'. Basically, a flat piece of plastic or cardboard cut into the shape of a footprint, which is cushioned w/ gauze or moleskin.

This is attached to the foot by straightening the toes and wrapping a bandage around the toe and the bottom of the shoe, on all toes.

This has had a pretty good success rate in getting Pigeons to use the foot properly. Might be worth a try. I would also consider what Phil says..may be a sign of illness. But you can medicate and use the shoe simultaneously. You wanna get that youngster walking correctly, because a Pigeon walking on her/his knuckles isn't particularly releasable. Many problems can develop over a short time if in the Feral world like that.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks a lot Phil - I was not at all aware that they should be drinking between meals, I was given the impression that the right consistency of formula would meet their hydration needs. 

The little one has picked up, appetite is back, the toes do seem slightly better (the middle toes are a little more outstretched), but still not normal. Just since this morning, the larger one has become quiet and disinterested in feeding - the same way the little one had been previously, except his toes are fine. So I went ahead and crop fed some electrolytes and since he wasn't interested in the feed, I let it go that time as I was more concerned about making sure he was hydrated first. Very shortly after, he was passing very watery poop and his crop is still emptying, so I assume there is no slow/blocked crop issues? I took a couple photos of fresh ones, the larger bird's was still very watery at that stage (as you see in the picture), but bear in mind that was after skipping a meal and having nothing but fluids. I did crop feed him just now despite his disinterest (not as much as usual though) and not long after, he passed some brown fibrous solids as well, although it's still a tad watery. But looking much closer to how it usually does. 

The smaller bird's poop is a kind of toffee brown colour, and this seems to have been the standard for both when they are well, eating and otherwise healthy. I did notice that when he pooped it seems very sticky (?) in the way it stretches and a long line stays stuck to his vent for a moment as he walks away. Almost Jellyish? I don't know if that is normal or not.

I managed to get the bigger bird to drink a little on his own before I fed him, so I'll keep encouraging that. The little one still hasn't figured out that I'm not trying to drown him, but working on it (hehe). 

Pics to follow, thanks in advance for your thoughts!


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Jaye, I was actually meaning to ask whether I should be splinting the foot in some manner - thanks for the input. I wasn't sure whether splinting was used in cases where it may be illness or deficiency, or only for injuries. If it won't hurt to splint them while I'm trying to get his health under control, then I'll certainly give it a go. I just wasn't sure whether it would depend entirely on what's causing the issue. But I can see what you mean, I certainly wouldn't be willing to release the bird in the state it's in if the feet did not improve. It would just be too much of an easy target, and really isn't very mobile.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

First pic belongs to larger bird. Second belongs to smaller. As mentioned, the larger bird has since passed more solid poop after having a feed (same kind of coulour as what the other bird is passing) but still isn't as lively as usual. Had to be "forced" to feed, as he had no interest in taking the crop needle. Sorry, have just discovered my camera takes crappy close up shots!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jess, 


What are you feeding them, and, how are you preparing the food?


There is no reason Doves of this age would not be enthusiastically pecking Seeds and self feeding by now, if guided to do so.


If they are not really active and trotting around, and doing Wing Exercises and squeaking a lot showing assertive interest in chow times, and so on, there is definitely somehting 'wrong'...wrong with the food, or wrong with them.


So...lets see if we can stay on it and figure it out!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Ugh... Ok... Well. I will try to give them some seed. The feathers only came right through on the big guy a day or two before xmas, and the little one is still missing some, but nearly there. I guess with all the issues we've had over this past week, I hadn't even thought to try them on seed at this stage, I've just been more concerned with getting them stable and healthy, so that one slipped by me! But duly noted. 

Initially both were very active at feed times - flapping, fighting, reaching for the feeder and swallowing it on their own. Then the little one went off it, lost interest, became quiet, while the big one remained active. Now the little guy has come good and the big one is off his food and quiet. 

The food is called "Vetafarm Neocare", and says that it should be used as the sole source of food until weaning. It's what our rehab organisation recommends. I mix it as stated on packaging - with hot water to a consistency that would just fall through the prongs of a fork. I check the temp, then crop feed immediately so it stays warm. Then I try to keep the birds warm so they digest well, and don't feed again until the crop empties. The avian petshop guy (who I bought the food from) said to fill the crop comfortably about 3 times a day. 

Now just this morning, I've noticed the big bird seems to have a slow crop. Food still hasn't digested, even though his sibling's crop is empty. This also happened on one occasion with the smaller bird while he was unwell, and I simply gave him fluids and kept him warm until it emptied, after a much longer period than normal. I attempted to feed the big one without realising he still had food in there this morning, so now I'm scared I'll give him crop stasis. I usually check their crop first, but for some reason I forgot on this occasion. It wasn't much food by the time I realised, but all the same... Any suggestions? I was already worried about his health, I really hope I haven't made it worse.

***Ok - just an update - It's been about an hour and a half since I fed him, and his crop had definitely shrunk a little since then, so I guess it is still moving, albeit slower than usual.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My first guess would be that the bird has Salmonellosis or some other infection in a rather more chronic state. Yes, that can happen; no, it's not easy to solve if that's what it is. Most avian vet books will mention just how "refractory" those can be and debate the merits of even trying. They will often use the words "host-adapted" to describe such cases, if memory serves. In any case, I'd probably try putting the chick through a course of Trimethoprim/Sulfa (like Bactrim, Cotrim, Divet and about a thousand other possible names) because that's one of the easiest antibiotics on growing chicks. If he were older, I'd tend to go with Baytril.

Anyhow, that's one possibility.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jesse,


Any of the powder formula mixes continue to absorb Water over many hours...thus, when typically made too thick to begin with, they then continue to thicken in the Crop, causing problems definitely, or potentially.


Consitency when served should be like melted Ice Cream on a Hot day out-doors, or even thinner, like simple 'Cream' say.


That, and, for the Babys/Youngsters to drink tepid Water a few times between Meals. They can be guided to do this, and, soon will do it merely for the Water being presented in a Cup.


I think the issues you are confronting could be as simple as chronic dehydration, and, formula having been too thick.


Work on getting them 'Nuzzling', and, softly guide their Nuzzling little Beak into a small low Cup of tepid Water, and, keep your finger tips softly on the sides opf their Beak as they drink.

They likely have some hydration to be catching up on.

You could even mix up some electrolyte Solution and have them drinkning that for the next few days.


Make a day's worth of formula, in a Tea Cup or similar, mix with fresh Cold Water...cover and let sit in the Refrigerator for a few hours, then freeze it.

Then, in a Sauce Pan, warm a couple inches of Water so it is hot but not boiling, remove from heat, and, set into it the Tea Cup of frozen Formula, Cover the Saucepan, and, let it warm up and thaw out...once it is liquid, stirr and decide if it needs to be thinner, and, or warmer, and if so, add more Cold Water...and...

Warm this then while stirring to the desired 'Body Temperature'.


This way of preparing it allows the formula to really be thoroughly hydrated, so it will not thicken in the Crop to become a resistive-to-passing, semi-impervious 'slug'.


When formula is too thick, it can invite various problems in the Crop which can then become serious issues in their own right.

Hot Tap Water is also not good to use, as it tends to contain Anaerobes which could be bad for Babys or Youngsters, so, use the Cold Water Tap, and, let it run a minute or two first.


Microwave should never be used for anything in associaiton with Food for these Birds.



Do the youngsters 'Nuzzle' your fingers, asking to be fed? ( Well, maybe less than they had been, if their experience with the formula has occasioned discomforts or disappointment, but ) ...get them Nuzzling, and, we can run through some ways of Feeding them Whole Small Seeds.

We want their Crops and digestive systems to be working well of course, before they can have Seeds, so...try the above described Formula mixing, and, see how that goes for a couple days or so.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Ok, cool. That makes a lot of sense, as it seems no matter how much I stir the formula and add more water, there are always patches that haven't absorbed it properly yet. I wondered if it came back to hydration, because each time the crop issue has arisen, giving them nothing but electrolyte solution until the issue resolves seems to work. Yes, when they are happy and feeding well, they nuzzle my hands like crazy. I put some seed in the crate with them before and used my fingers to "peck" at it, and they seemed interested in what I was doing, but weren't pecking as yet. 

Should I discontinue this until I can get their formula under control? Also while I'm picking your brain, is it ok to give them a gentle warm water bath? they have gotten a bit grubby and their feathers are sticky in place (particularly with the watery poop issues!) So long as I dry them off and make sure they are warm, will this be ok? 

Pidgey, when you talk about Salmonellosis, are you referring specifically to the bird with the foot issue? I have noticed the feet have again improved since yesterday, and it almost seems that as his health and appetite pick up, his feet are getting straighter. Plus a lot more sunlight I suppose. Should I see what happens first with the feeding, or start him on bactrim as a precaution anyway? 

Thanks so much for guiding me through this guys - really thought I was going to lose them, or at least one. This gives me a little more hope.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

One more thing - is two or three feeds a day the correct amount, as I was instructed by the pet shop? Also, I was told not to keep any leftover food as it spoils too quickly. When I am reheating the day's worth of food, am I reheating the whole lot and using what I need, then storing it in the fridge until next feed and reheating again? Just want to be sure I'm not going to spoil the food if I haven't understood correctly. Sorry for the minute details.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Jesse, 


Salmonella or Paratyphoid as it is sometimes called, can occasion stunted or slow growth development, and or twisted Limbs.


My own suspicion in this instance, is that these two have been dehydrated, chronically, for quite a while, and, that their quality of health and of development and ability to assimilate nutrition, has been detracted from because of it.


They could have Paratyphoid...but, under the particulars of this situaiton, it is not the only thing which could account for their conditions.


It's up to you if you wish to be on the safe side, and consider a course of Medicines for possible Paratyphoid, but, you could also wait and see how things go, and, if all seems fine with no meds ( and possible with no paratyphoid having been responsibl;e for the growth differential or Foot Toes issue ) , then, review the matter here again.



For now, do a few days of correctly prepared formula, with them drinking electrolyte Water between meals...guide their Beak as explained in my previous Post, for them to drink.


Then, we can talk about Seeds.


You can bathe them...use cool water...just have them stand or sit in it, an inch or so of Water, njo immersions, and blot them dry as best you can afterward.


If you do not have any already, get some of the quite small Seed Mix kind, as for Canaries or small Finches, which is small whole Seeds.


Then in a couple days, we can go over how to feed them small whole Seeds.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

jessrabbit said:


> One more thing - is two or three feeds a day the correct amount, as I was instructed by the pet shop? Also, I was told not to keep any leftover food as it spoils too quickly. When I am reheating the day's worth of food, am I reheating the whole lot and using what I need, then storing it in the fridge until next feed and reheating again? Just want to be sure I'm not going to spoil the food if I haven't understood correctly. Sorry for the minute details.


Do not continually re-heat the same food, as the heating/cooling process creates a breeding ground for bacteria. (which is the last thing you want)
If you make a batch, Just heat what you need for each feed & discard any left over from that feed, that way each feed is only being re-heated once.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Quazar, that's exactly what I was concerned about. I will make a whole day's worth and then seperate it into per-feed batches before freezing. If anyone can fill me in on whether my instructed 2-3 feeds per day is aquequate I'd be most grateful. And finally, do they still need heat at this stage with all those feathers? It's getting quite hot over here... 40 celcius tomorrow, and even the nights are warm. Commonsense tells me they should be fine, but I know some animals require extra heat when they aren't well. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks again all. 



For now I will start on Phil's feeding method and continue encouraging them to drink between meals, and reassess in a few days.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Sorry to keep asking more questions, but now a new concerning issue. The big sickly bird (I assume) has either regurgitated or passed pure undigested food. There was a lump of it when I went to check on them, and it looks just like it did when I fed him, only drier and more solid. Still han't passed what's in his crop. It's smaller than it was originally, but feels very hard. The only thing I can do is give him more fluids for now, and I'm hoping somebody will know what this means. 

*** I did some research and have given some probiotics mixed in with the water and a drop of oil, and then very gentle massage. Noticed the sick bird doesn't seem as warm as his sibling, so I have given a small heated grain bag for warmth. At this stage I'm assuming this is still severe dehydration and being left with hard lumps of food in the crop, as Phil was explaining earlier. The mass is very low in the crop now, evenly distributed on either side, and smaller but still very hard. Any further input welcome.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

jessrabbit said:


> do they still need heat at this stage with all those feathers? It's getting quite hot over here... 40 celcius tomorrow, and even the nights are warm. Commonsense tells me they should be fine, but I know some animals require extra heat when they aren't well. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.


If you place their cage/box half over a heating pad, set on low, so they can choose where they want to sit. An ill bird uses energy to keep warm, by giving the heat, it can use that energy to combat the illness.

Btw, If youre freezing the formula in per feed portions, an ice cube tray is ideal


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Quazar, I will do that. Ice cube tray is a great idea! I think he's definitely passing the undigested food, as there was more this morning and it's so far down in the crop now I don't see how it could be regurgitated. Still has the lump of food. I'm concerned now that he hasn't had a feed since yesterday morning (it's now midday Friday) as I assume I can't put new food in on top. I'm worried about malnutrition. All he's getting is fluids. But I don't know what else I can do.


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Well I'm not very hopeful. I don't know if what I'm doing is working, don't even know if maybe there's something else wrong with him? He can't seem to even keep fluids down. I give him some water and it starts dribbling back out his mouth. He has become tired, head down, eyes shut. Can only waddle when he tries to walk. I'm half expecting he won't make it through the day.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Im sure one of the more experianced members will be able to give you more advice on the feeding, Ive not really had any hands on experiance with sick birds (only strays or slightly injured), but i think a few drops of ACV (apple cider vinegar) in the water may help with the digestion and help to empty the crop. You are right in your assumption that you shouldnt feed till the crop is near empty.
Hopefully someone will be along soon with correct advice 

EDIT Jess, ive just PM'd Terry, she'll be along shortly with more info


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Thank you so much. I feel a bit helpless now, but all this great advice is really reassuring.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jess,

I'm coming in way late on this thread but have read through it. Thank you so much for all your efforts with these two little ones.

I thought I read somewhere in the thread that these might be doves, and based upon the pictures, that would be my guess .. they are doves and not pigeons. While the care and food is the same for either, there is a very significant difference in how much food/formula a dove can handle as compared to a pigeon.

Young pigeons from about 2 weeks on can easily handle 15 cc's per feeding all the way up to 30 cc's or a bit more by the time they are of weaning age (about 4-5 weeks old). Young doves, on the other hand can only handle about 1/3 to 1/2 those amounts due to their smaller size and smaller crops. 

So, an important first piece of information is to determine for sure whether the youngsters are doves or pigeons. That bit of info will give us the guideline for how much to feed at each feeding. Typically we would be feeding very, very young birds as often as 4-6 times per day. Given the appearance of your two, I would guess that 3-4 feedings per day are called for. They appear to be well on their way to being feathered and are probably about 3 weeks old. 

I think my first step would be to do what you have been doing by getting fluids in and massaging the crop to see if you can get it to empty. This process can sometimes be helped by putting a few drops of apple cider vinegar (ACV) in with the water or by syringing a baking soda solution (1 teaspoon of baking soda to a cup of water). Do NOT do both ACV and baking soda .. one or the other but not both. I would syringe in 3-5 cc's of either ACV or baking soda water, gently massage the crop, and see what happens in about 3 hours time. No more formula or food until we've got the crop moving again .. even if that takes as long as 8 hours or more. 

Once the crop is emptying properly, I would start with very, very thin formula and feed only about 5 cc at a time and wait for the crop to empty before feeding again. If this is going well, then the amount of formula can be slowly increased until you are at a normal amount per feeding .. normal is going to be probably 5-10 cc's if these are doves and 15-25 cc's if they are pigeons.

The clenched toes/foot may very well be due to nutritional and/or dehydration issues, and I would wait a bit to see if this self resolves. If it doesn't, then the bootie/shoe usually does the trick. You can also feed bits of Brewer's Yeast tablets to aid in such problems. I wouldn't "jump" on the Brewer's Yeast just yet as we don't need to be adding any additional potential problems to the crop situation.

If you have scales and could post weights for both birds, that would be helpful. Weighing them prior to feeding each morning and then posting the weights will allow us to see if we are making headway or losing ground.

This has gotten way long, so I'm going to go ahead and post but will be reviewing the thread again to see if I've missed something or have made an improper suggestion.

Best of luck to you with these little ones!

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jessrabbit said:


> Well I'm not very hopeful. I don't know if what I'm doing is working, don't even know if maybe there's something else wrong with him? He can't seem to even keep fluids down. I give him some water and it starts dribbling back out his mouth. He has become tired, head down, eyes shut. Can only waddle when he tries to walk. I'm half expecting he won't make it through the day.


Jess, how full is the crop? If it is quite fluid filled and not emptying, then we have a very large problem here. You do need to be keeping at least this youngster very warm even though it has a good amount of feathers.

Terry


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Ok Terry, I will try that. Is ts there a point at which the crop stasis or impacted crop is too far gone to be resolved? I've just checked him again, and I'm really concerned. The mass is low down in the front, but I can feel it all the way at nape of his neck too. It seems so hard, it must be terribly painful, and he does seem to experience some discomfort when I massage it. It's been about 24hrs since he's been fed, and there still seems to be so much food in there. He will drink, but it seems difficult for him to swallow, and the last time I put fluids into him with the crop syringe, it started dribbling back out. 

I am assuming they are doves, they were given to me as 'pigeons', but they were only nestlings at the time. And yes, I was told to try around 30cc per feed initially, but they could only handle about 5 in the beginning before being really full.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jess, when you say the bird waddles .. is that because the crop is very, very full and heavy making it hard for the little one to hold it up and walk? I'm just trying to get a visual on what the birds look like right now so I can try to make some better suggestions to you.

Are you able to give sub-q fluids .. if so .. do you have Lactated Ringers or whatever your equivalent would be? I'm trying to figure a way to keep the bird hydrated without continuing to overload the crop.

Gotta go for just a few minutes to check on my latest incoming .. I'll be back shortly.

Terry


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jess...you are doing a phenomenal job so far; and have gotten great advice since I last visited this thread.

The one with the slow crop...is she/he still pooping ? Showing signs of lethargy/decline as far as activity level ???


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## jessrabbit (Dec 29, 2010)

Ok guys, unfortunately just lost the sick bird. I am now not entirely convinced it was JUST a slow crop. He seemed to have developed a seperate lump closer to the back of the neck that wasn't evident yesterday (or not obvious anyway). Yes, he was still pooping, but the issue seemed to be more that his breathing was laboured and i wonder if this mass was blocking the airways. There was still food in the crop, but I'm pretty sure now that the other lump was seperate to that. 

Thank you all so much for talking me through this. I only wish I could have worked things out sooner. I feel really terrible that it was likely my incorrect feed that made him sick. But on the other hand, I am so much better equipped to help the little one now than I would have been otherwise. I really had no idea how in depth the care of these guys could be. The other crested pigeons I have had in care were closer to fledging, and were fairly independant eaters when I got them. What a challenge! 

I will keep following the instructions for feeding the little guy (who seems a to be getting more lively each day, thankfully), and I'll try and get my hands on some scales as suggested. Thanks again, you guys are really wonderful.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry the one little one didn't make it, Jess. Bless you for trying so hard. 

The lump stuff is troublesome as it may be or have been canker (trichomoniasis) and not just a slow crop. Usually we can see the growths in the back of the mouth and upper throat, but sometimes it is too far inside to see. If this were my bird, I would do a necropsy or have one done just to know for sure what was going on.

Best of luck to you and the other little one. Please do keep us posted.

Terry


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jess....don't blame yourself. It was obviously more than what may or may not have been incorrect feeding; the baby had other things going on. I am also sad to hear this, but you tried your best and there's no doubt she knew you cared.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jessrabbit said:


> One more thing - is two or three feeds a day the correct amount, as I was instructed by the pet shop? Also, I was told not to keep any leftover food as it spoils too quickly. When I am reheating the day's worth of food, am I reheating the whole lot and using what I need, then storing it in the fridge until next feed and reheating again? Just want to be sure I'm not going to spoil the food if I haven't understood correctly. Sorry for the minute details.



Make a Tea Cup of formula.


Freeze it...

Thaw and warm to serving temp while stirring...( do not cook it, just warm it thoroughly ).

Serve the meal(s).

Freeze it till next meal time...


Nothing spoils this way.


Use ACV Water for mixing the formula...it's a good thing to do.


How much any individual youngster can have for one meal, and, how soon the next meal, depends on how large a volume their Crop comfortable holds, and, how fast their Crop empties.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jessrabbit said:


> Sorry to keep asking more questions, but now a new concerning issue. The big sickly bird (I assume) has either regurgitated or passed pure undigested food. There was a lump of it when I went to check on them, and it looks just like it did when I fed him, only drier and more solid. Still han't passed what's in his crop. It's smaller than it was originally, but feels very hard. The only thing I can do is give him more fluids for now, and I'm hoping somebody will know what this means.
> 
> *** I did some research and have given some probiotics mixed in with the water and a drop of oil, and then very gentle massage. Noticed the sick bird doesn't seem as warm as his sibling, so I have given a small heated grain bag for warmth. At this stage I'm assuming this is still severe dehydration and being left with hard lumps of food in the crop, as Phil was explaining earlier. The mass is very low in the crop now, evenly distributed on either side, and smaller but still very hard. Any further input welcome.



Provided the Crop does not have a lot of Liquid in it, you can gently 'massage' the 'slug' of old semi-impervious formula which appears to be in his lower Crop, and, by that means, see if you can help it to soften and dissolve.


Images of some of his fresh poops?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jessrabbit said:


> Thanks Quazar, I will do that. Ice cube tray is a great idea! I think he's definitely passing the undigested food, as there was more this morning and it's so far down in the crop now I don't see how it could be regurgitated. Still has the lump of food. I'm concerned now that he hasn't had a feed since yesterday morning (it's now midday Friday) as I assume I can't put new food in on top. I'm worried about malnutrition. All he's getting is fluids. But I don't know what else I can do.




Most freezers have dehumidifiers which will dessicate anything not sealed.

I meant to emphacise, if you have a usual modern Refrigerator, to cover the Tea Cup, or whatever you use to have the Formula in.


If a Pigeon youngster is making enough of his own Body Heat, you can hold him in your Palm and tell...it will be obvious, and he will be a 'Little Furnace'...

Iuf he is not a Little Furnace, supply warmth.


He can coast a few days with no food...that is fine...work on massaging the old wad or slug of formula, and see about getting it dissolved.


He can throw up anything from anywhere in his Crop, but, whether he will or not, is a different question.

These 'slugs' of formula which had been too thick, which get thicker once in the Crop, can become quite resistant to dissolving, and, also begin spoiling and fermenting, and, making toxins...his Body will wish to throw up all of it he can, if he can.


ACV Water ( say four Tablespoons of Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of Water _ can help arrest fermentation troubles in the Crop...so, make some and see if he will accept it for his drinking Water for the next several days.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jess, I'm so sorry to hear this 
Please, dont try to put any blame on yourself, you did what you could the best you could. 
No one knows everything at one time and everyone has to go through the learning process in stages. 
Its not always possible to spot multiple things at one time, and some things develop faster than one knows how to deal with it.
If everyone did know everything then there would be no need for forums like this.
It is very difficult to judge exactly what is wrong and what needs to be done in which particular order, which is why everyone here is here to help the best we can.
Some members can sometimes spot things that others cant, and there are times when things arent spotted till its too late, thats unfortunately the way things go. You just have to put it behind you and carry on. 
It will however remain in your memory for future issues, so the learning continues.
We have all been in a similar situation at one time or other, and know how you feel.
Keep a close eye on the other young one and concentrate on getting it fully fit and hopefully that will help you to.

Bob


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jessrabbit said:


> Well I'm not very hopeful. I don't know if what I'm doing is working, don't even know if maybe there's something else wrong with him? He can't seem to even keep fluids down. I give him some water and it starts dribbling back out his mouth. He has become tired, head down, eyes shut. Can only waddle when he tries to walk. I'm half expecting he won't make it through the day.




Hi Jess,



I missed this Post somehow.



What does 'Give him some Water' mean in this context?

Are you trying to put Water in his Beak or Mouth?

PLEASE do not do that, if you had been...no more of that...too easilyh "deadly"
...either he drinks volentarily, or one 'Tubes' it directly IN to the lower Crop.


I might not have asked - or I do not remember...how have you been feeding these youngsters?



Can you please Post some good, close up, in focus, images of whatever his fresh poops are?


If you open his Beak and sniff very close, is there any odor?


Can you open his Beak anbd look carefully, under a bright Light, to see if there is any tan or yellow or organe color material in his Mouth or Throat?



Phil
Las Vegas


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