# Broken beak - Montreal



## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

I found a pigeon tonight, with a broken beak and a broken wing.
I have him in my apartment, and have called the SPCA who will come pick him up, and than give him to a man who rehabilitates pigeons.

Do you think he will survive, missing the top part of his beak? I don't think he can drink or eat....

I'm really concerned about him,and I don't want him to be euthanized if it is possible to save him.

Thanks for any info you can give.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Hannahbelle,

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk and thank you so much for rescuing this badly injured pigeon. It's hard to say if the bird can be saved without seeing the bird or at least pictures of the bird.

If the entire upper beak is gone, then it is highly unlikely that the bird can be saved, but do know that you will have saved the bird from a prolonged and very miserable death by your intervention. The bird would have become weaker and weaker and would have eventually died of starvation or would have gotten picked off by a predator in the wild.

While I do hope the bird can be saved, if that is not possible, still know that you have done a very good and kind thing.

Terry


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

Thanks for the kind words Terry.

I feel so horrible for this bird. He has so much fight in him, it's incredible.

I've been dripping water onto his beak, and you can see his tongue moving, so he is drinking what he can, but I haven't fed him, as I just don't know how.

The SPCA will be picking him up tonight, and I think they will most likely choose to euthanize him, but I do feel it's better - at least he's not out and starving on the street, unable to fly.

I wonder what happened to the poor guy, what with the broken wing, and missing beak? Just horrible.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Here is a video on how to hand feed a pigeon with seeds or solid food such as soaked dog biscuits, it is very easy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

I hate to think of a pigeon with such a will to live being euthanased. Would it not be possible to try to find it a home? I am in the UK, otherwise I would take it in. I already have one with a broken beak in my care.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Whether or not the bird can live is more just a question of how much effort is spent. For now, feeding him would be very little problem with a bit of supplies (not expensive) and learning. Beyond that, it would then simply be a question of assessment of the injury and then taking the steps necessary to get the bird back to its own self-management.

Can you give us some idea of how far back the beak is broken? You can either simply measure from the tip of the lower beak back to the break (and it's gone, right?) with a ruler, or you can describe by way of where the break is with respect to the ceres (the nostrils, which are usually covered over by a whitish, cauliflower-like tissue).

It is possible to affix a prosthetic with dental supplies, that's actually been done on a lot of birds, especially parrots and zoo-kept birds. The wing doesn't have to be a major issue, especially if the bird will have a home.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> *It is possible to affix a prosthetic with dental supplies*, that's actually been done on a lot of birds, especially parrots and zoo-kept birds. The wing doesn't have to be a major issue, especially if the bird will have a home.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, 

I don't think such a prosthetic has ever been created for or designed for pigeons. What ever happened to Phil's plan to attach a prosthetic to "crow baby" so long ago now. I know that crow baby ended up escaping. However, I remember you were trying to help Phil with ideas and Phil had a few himself but I recal nothing ever panned out with that. That bird too also needed an upper mandible replaced. 

I think that because pigeons beak tissues are so delicate, soft and small, it makes it nearly impossible to create a prosthetic for them that would function as needed.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This may be a dumb question but here goes anyhow. The nostrils are on the top beak. If that is torn off how does it affect the bird's ability to breathe? I know they would be able to get air because the beak is gone but wonder if it would affect anything.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Maggie, it depends on whether the holes remain intact (if the ceres are gone). However, breathing can occur through the mouth anyway. Actually, it does anyhow, after a fashion. With the mouth closed, air goes into the nose, through the sinuses and down into the throat behind the palate. From there, it enters the trachea. Air can get to the entrance to the trachea either through the nose or the mouth. Basic illustration:

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/21468/router.asp

On the practical side for this bird, it may mean that the bird would breathe through its beak more and there may be some learning to do when it comes to eating, much like we have to do when we've got a completely stopped-up nose. That's the kind of thing that you learn pretty quickly though, because it's that or die.

Brad,

Phil never actually attached anything of the type that I'm referring to. To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever has on a pigeon. But this isn't because it can't be done--it's simply because no one has ever researched it in detail and tried. We've had so few birds in this condition that it just hasn't been practical to put the effort into. If you'll remember a past thread where I linked a story about a parrot that had suffered an injury such that the entire top beak was gone and they replaced it, you'll understand that it has been done before on birds that actually generate more crunching power with the beak than pigeons do. It can be done and if I ever get a bird with such an injury that cannot be healed conventionally, then I will do it.

I will say that for most of us, there is a very strong psychological barrier against performing invasive procedures. For some, it's so strong that tube-feeding or medicating is virtually out of the question. You've got your own experiences with Eggbert and Henny to remember to understand what I'm talking about. When I was younger, I never would have considered suturing myself up like I did last week. I've changed. I'm still reluctant to do a lot of things, but not so much as I used to be.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> Brad,
> 
> If you'll remember a past thread where I linked a story about a parrot that had suffered an injury such that the entire top beak was gone and they replaced it, you'll understand that it has been done before on birds that actually generate more crunching power with the beak than pigeons do. It can be done and if I ever get a bird with such an injury that cannot be healed conventionally, then I will do it.
> 
> ...



Hi Pidgey, 

Yep, I remember the article about the parrot and I know this has been done for these species before. There was also a bald eagle that had a prosthetic beak replacement done, although I don't have the link handy. In the eagle's case, they had to do it a couple of times because the first one didn't work properly and was becoming loose/infected or something.

I don't really doubt it's impossible to put a prosthetic beak on a pigeon, I just think it would be very, very difficult. I think such a venture would require a lot of prototypes to be created to find just what will work, the right material, how to attach etc. The cost to research and create such a unique thing for a pigeon would surely be sky high! However, if anyone has the know-how, determination/inclination to make such a thing work, it's you


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Broken Or Bent Back*

Are you sure the beak is broken off? I have seen birds that have flown up against a hard surface that have had there beak bent back into their mouth this looks like the beak is broken off but that is not the case.Take a good look and if the beak has been bent back into the mouth all that is needed is to pop it back out.I have had is happen to a couple of my birds over the years. I suspect that this bird flew up against a hard surface as it has a broken wing and the beak just may be bent back.......GEORGE


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

One of our UK vets suggested making a prosthetic lower beak for a pigeon. He seemed to think it would be very worth trying, but sadly the pigeon died of an infection soon after the discussion so it was never attempted

From the Middleton's pigeon thread it sounds as if it is the state of the tongue that is important and in this case it is there and functioning.

I seem to remember that an Australian member had a pigeon with the upper beak broken off. It escaped but still survived because it returned to the balcony to eat, there food was provided in a deep dish which allowed it to scoop up seed with its lower beak.

Cynthia


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

Okay, I am very willing to look and see if the beak is bent back - I would LOVE it if that is the case.
Actually, my boyfriend and I figure that he did fly into a window, and that is most likely how he got the injuries.
From just looking at him, it appears that the beak is completely gone, right at the white part where the nostrils are.

I have been dripping water onto the lower half of the beak, and you can see his tongue move as he swallows it.

I feel so bad for it, but I just don't want him to be suffering in any way.

I can't even imagine how the bird will eat without that top beak...I'm going to try to get a picture for you all later.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If the beak is severed, then you would see a severed edge (use a magnifying glass) complete with a bloody edge. In opening the beak, you should be able to see the in-/under-side of the upper beak that resembles the roof of your mouth. That is, it should have a "cathedral ceiling" with something called the "choanal slit" with small protrusions running in tracks parallel to the middle groove. If the beak is actually bent like a hairpin towards the inside, then the roof of the mouth is going to resemble the bottom of a canoe made of fingernail-like material.

Suffering is usually transient and normally the actual pain goes away. It's one of the most wonderful aspects of life when a being doesn't give up trying or wanting to live. It sounds like the bird's got enough left (even if you don't find that the beak tip is turned inside) to continue living even it means modifications to its eating methods. We will help you through this if you wish to take the bird on.

Pidgey


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI HANNAHBELLE,Sorry to hear that its broken off I was hoping that it would just be bent back.I posted here so as not to clutter up your new thread.If anyone can help its PIDEY,he will give you good advice..............GEORGE


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

george simon said:


> HI HANNAHBELLE,Sorry to hear that its broken off I was hoping that it would just be bent back.I posted here so as not to clutter up your new thread.If anyone can help its PIDEY,he will give you good advice..............GEORGE



Thanks George. 

I was hoping it would just be bent back at well, but that is not the case.
So, onward to the next steps.

I'm feeling pretty confident that I can help this little guy, with everyones guidance and advice.


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

*George!!! You were right!!!!*

So, my boyfriend and I were cleaning off Mr. Pigeon's beak - it was all bloody and scabby...
So, I was holding onto his head, and felt something under his chin. It felt like a beak.
Couldn't get a good look....
Finally, after loosening the scabs, I was able to pry open his mouth, and the beak was there!!!!!!!!
It was bent down, and stabbed through his chin....
So, I pushed it out...felt a little weak in the knees, but I did it!
So, he was trying to eat seeds before the beak was out, so I'm hoping he tries again.
He seems a little shell shocked at the moment....
I'm hoping he doesn't die.

I think that the tongue may have been pierced though...

I hope he's okay and pulls though. 

Everyone, keep Mr. Pigeon in your thoughts, that he pulls through.

Thanks so much for the suggestion George - I would never have known otherwise.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that solves some future problems. Actually, a pigeon's beak has a skeletal structure underneath and so that will be broken. The outside is a keratin-based substance like our fingernails although only the actual tip grows outward like one. There's not going to be a lot of feeling here but you're going to have to keep an eye on it that it's not getting bent too much.

He's probably feeling pretty starved and will get back to it fairly soon.

Pidgey


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

Honestly, after the beak was pulled out, it was like all three of us just went "PHEW" and calmed down...
So, we have left him alone - I'm not going to bother him with being fed tonight, let him rest, hopefully let the beak feel better, and we'll see what happens tomorrow.
I am so so happy though.

This is much better, I think, than having no beak at all.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Hannabelle...please ask a Moderator to add this THREAD to you ORIGINAL THREAD.

Otherwise, no one may know what you are talking about. Luckily, your original thead is still listed on New Posts...

Will make a lot more sense...


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

This is fantastic news.
I am so happy for the little pij and you.
Great job, this guy has a good chance now.

Reti


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HANNAHBELLE, That news made my day.He/she will be alittle sore for few days kindy like having all your teeth pulled lol GEORGE


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Glad to see a happy resolution on this beak dilemna.

Thank you for taking care of this bird and finding the underlying problem.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

GREAT NEWS!!

Hope all continues to go well!

Sending WARM HEALING THOUGHTS!!   

Please keep us updated!


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

He is doing SO WELL today! I don't think I've seen a bird eat so much at one time...
Still his feisty little self, which is fabulous. He yanked off the wing wrapping I'd done, so we'll have to try that one again.

I did notice he has a few little mites on him - they don't look like flies, that is I cannot see wings - I actually only saw one, it's very small, longish, and light brown.

Familiar to anyone?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure. You can get a Pyrethrin-based spray for birds that'll take care of those. Just cover his head when you spritz or dust him (Sevin).

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

So George was right!!!! That is so wonderful!  

Thank you, Hannabelle, for looking for solutions for him!

Cynthia


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

How wonderful! I'm so glad this turned out to be what George had suspected. I'll bet that is one very happy bird about now.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Hannabelle, 


So glad to read of your success with this..!

I have encountered similar Beak situations, where the upper Beak was sticking out through the center of the lower Beak...and of course the Pigeon could not correct or relieve this on their own.

Both of these were resolved by manipulating the upper Beak to bend and bring it out.

The first time, I was at a Vets, and the Bird died soon after, I was certain, becaus the Vet insisted on useing anaesthesia, and he was rough with the proceedure. This was long ago...

The second occasion, was a couple years ago, and I did it myself with a friend helping to steady the Bird, and of course no anaesthetic, lifting 'up' from under his mid area of his upper Beak, with a small softish wooden stick ( like a small Popsicle stick or stirr stick) while steadying his lower Beak to let the top Beak out...


...and all went well, went elegantly in fact, and the Pigeon showed immediate relief.

He was soon eating, and the hole in his lower jaw/Beak soon healed up fine. His lower Beak resumeing it's former and proper shape after being spread wider like that. 

In his case, I had trimmed the protrudeing 'tip' of his upper Beak where it was stickong out a little below, through the center of his lower beak, where it had become locked in there, hopeing this would allow it to come out easier for being a little bit shorter, but I trimmed it only a tiny bit for this.


It is hard to understand how this could happen to a Pigeon, but it does happen to them at times...and it is important we know how to remedy it, in case we get one who has this condition. 


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow, great to hear that the beak was just bent and you were able to fix it. Congratulations!!


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## Hannahbelle (Sep 8, 2006)

Just a little update on Rufus (or, Mr. Pigeon, as we call him more often!)

We strapped down his broken wing, not using the figure 8 method (we tried but had alot of difficulty) but basically just wrapped it against his body, using instructions found on the net.

He was a little unballanced at first, but seems to have adapted quite well.

He is still eating a ton, and being a feisty bird!

I put less water in his dish, because the instructions I found said that due to the unbalance to lessen the water incase he fell over in it and drowned. I haven't seen him drinking it, but I'm assuming he will? I'm just hoping it's not too low for him realize it's there.

Tomorrow, I'm going to go and buy some type of spray to get rid of his mites - I haven't seen any again, but better to get rid of them.

I read that we should keep his wing strapped for 2-4 weeks - does that sound about right to you guys?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hannahbelle said:


> Tomorrow, I'm going to go and buy some type of spray to get rid of his mites - I haven't seen any again, but better to get rid of them.
> 
> I read that we should keep his wing strapped for 2-4 weeks - does that sound about right to you guys?


If you can't find the bird insect spray, Sevin dust from the garden department will also work and is safe for the little one.

4 weeks is probably too long to leave the wing wrapped unless this is a really nasty break. 2 weeks is usually about the right length of time. You can unwrap at 2 weeks and check to see if the break has healed and re-wrap if needed for another week.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

You can use any bird mite & lice spray it works well on pigeons too. Here is one that I use.

http://www.southernagriculture.com/...EDLJAP&ad_id=bizrate&key_id=PAAAIACIGMEDLJAP&


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