# Feral pigeon brought in, injured, but may be sick



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I was brought a feral pigeon who looked to have been very mildly attacked by a cat; it looked like she had been clawed on her chest just a little bit, and there was blood on her beak but not within, and it was old blood.

Her poops, however, are not good and getting worse. She is lethargic, not eating, and seems to have some difficulty breathing; at least, her tail bobs. Her poop went from nearly all urates with a spot of fecal matter to this yellowish mucous, with dark feces, that is so mucousy that it is actually still hanging from her vent at the moment.

I have antibiotics, antifungals and antiparasitics within reach, but does anyone have any clue what this might be? What should I do? Her mouth, by the way, looks clean.

Update: I just crop fed her for the second time. I use a very thin, very gentle latex tube that's used to feed infants through their nostrils. And I saw blood on the tube. It wasn't much, but it was there, and it smelled quite bad. It looked old. I wonder if it is from her crop, and now I fear that she might have been hit by a car. I'm not sure but there may be blood around her eyes, and of course there was that blood around her nostrils...

Yikes, I just have no idea what to do. The only bird vet I know isn't seeing pigeons anymore.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, how long ago was this bird attacked and what antibiotics/meds do you have on hand? How much did you feed her? I would hold off on any more food for a while. 

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds very typical of Canker, whether the lesions are visible in the Mouth or Throat or not...probably Lesions are present in her Esophagus, hence the 'Blood' on the feeding Tube.


Metronidazole...Carnidazole...Ronidazole, any of those.


Better get on it fast, you have very little time left for ammending this.


Use ACV-Water for her drinking...( 3 or 4 Tablespoons of 'BRAGGS' Organic, raw, Apple Cider Vinegar - get at any Health Food Store - to a Gallon of regular Drinking Water )



Dissolve the Meds in the ACV-Water for putting them into the Crop via the Tube...

Lube the Tube well with Oilve Oil ( always ) 


Also, if you have a good broad spectrum antibiotic, get her on that now also.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

You know, yeah, the blood was sort of "chunky" looking and smelled awful.

My problem is that I don't think she is digesting anything in her crop. It is full. So, I might have to flush that with the tube, and that can be tedious and I'm not sure it will work entirely. Unless I can get the crop moving with ACV or anything else. Does anyone have any other suggestions to get the crop moving?

I have Ronidazole on hand, and I've been feeding her Amoxicillin + Tylan but I'm not sure she's actually digested any of it.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Dobato said:


> Vasp, how long ago was this bird attacked and what antibiotics/meds do you have on hand? How much did you feed her? I would hold off on any more food for a while.
> 
> Karyn


I thought I'd answer that as well.
I'm not sure how long ago it was. She definitely has some trauma but I think there is an underlying illness based on her poops and the bad smell in her mouth. Also, her crop is emptying slowly. She was brought to me about 24 hours ago. I have Ronidazole, and a broad spectrum antibiotic that contains Amoxicillin and Tylan, and also Nystatin. I fed her about 10cc of food, I'm not sure how her crop functions are but I feel a few seeds when palpating so it's possible she has eaten and drank.

Also about her behavior.
Her breathing doesn't seem too bad, but she holds one wing lower than the other. She fights back when I try to grab her. She seems alert. There is a very bad smell to her beak and mouth, however, same as that from her throat/crop.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Depending on the kind it is, the lavage Catheter has a hole in the end...make that hole a 'Julianne Cut', cut a new end at an acute angle, and, lightly take the sharpness off by holding it over a flame for a split second.


Then, take a Razor Blade, Single Edge type, and make a small notch about 1/4 inch up from the end, so there is a tidy same size hole ther also.


If 'suctioning' out foul fluids, this then prevents ( still, be sensitive and do not be suctioning if any resistence is encountered, push a little fluid back, turn the Catheter a little, and try again ) this 'second hole' prevents the end from getting suction-stuck against Tissue.

Be careful...go slow, be patient...spigot the Pigeon as a 'Burrito' behind your knees as you sit, so you have both hands free.


Cease feeding for the next few days....with-hold Water also.


Use Medistatin ( or Nystatin) , and ACV-Water and Metronidazole ( or Ronidazole if that is all you have )


This will almost certainly need all three things.

If you have any injectibe Reglan or it's equivelent, consider using it also to lessen some of the swelling and inflamation which is presently contributing to the blockage issues.

Never 'grab' a Bird under your care...always bring your hands in very slowly, and softly lift them from in front, or from behind and below.

They are likely stresed enough as it is!

Lol...

You want their co-operation, not their resentment to insult and bullying.

Be gentle...slow...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you for your help. Is there anywhere I could see a picture of one of these devices? It's a little difficult for me to visualize.

I try not to grab any bird, but she still fights back against my hands coming towards her. I suppose that is more what I meant. She did that when I first brought her in as well. She looks to be a very young pigeon.

If I'm feeding those medications, should I tube feed them to her if she won't take them herself in water? Also, I have Nystatin, but only a bit. What sort of dosage are we looking at for a pigeon? I could probably weigh her, if necessary.

I really want to suction that stuff out of her crop soon, but I really can't picture what I need to do to my tube to make it suitable for that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, our tendency is to want to feed things when they are not well, but sometimes this can be a mistake. I always think that for myself the last thing I want is a lot of food in my stomach when I am not feeling well, and many times, I believe, animals feel the same way. Sometimes it's best to hold off on food for a few reasons, one if things are not moving through the GI track, it only will exacerbate trying to get things going by flushing them with hydration fluids, even hand-feeding formula can be a problem, especially if not much is moving and you want to try and get some meds in them and what ends up happening is the food and meds just sit in the crop.

For the future, once you hear possible cat or dog attach and you have Amoxicillin around it should be started, as a matter of course, as a precaution against them getting a pasturella infection.

Phil, I just read your post, prior to posting this, thanks for posting that information. I was debating whether to post something similar, as sometimes we do not know the skill sets others have, but thoughts align with yours. I would want to get as much of the current crop contents out as I could and start with some hydrating fluid and meds.

I think this image is what Phil means:



Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I wasn't entirely sure of her condition when she came to me. I made a mistake by feeding her, and I regret it. I can see what you mean by that tube, but what does the other side look like? Was there a cut made from the tip of the tube? It's quite difficult to see.

I did give her Amoxicillin first thing, however.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The other end is just attached to a 30cc silicone "O" ring type syringe to draw out the contents of the crop. You can't quite see it because of the angle, but the side of the rounded bottom also has a "V" notch in it to help it from sticking the the crop wall when suctioning. You have to make sure the neck is well extended and slightly tilted in a back direction.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

No, I don't mean the other end. I mean the other side of the tube, perpendicular to the hole cut with the razor blade. That hole makes sense, as I've seen them in urological catheters. However, it doesn't look like the tip of the tube is circular... as it was originally. I saw that pdpbison said to cut on an acute angle, but that is what confuses me the most. ... Sorry, I'm not very good at this sort of thing.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, here is a shot of the back:


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay good. Thank you very much. That makes sense. I assume holding it over a flame like that will make the edges smooth. I'll go do this to my tube now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Just so there is some sort of hol in the end...and, another same sized hole a little ways up...this allows a safer more practical 'suction' to occur, without a single hole inadvertently being suctioned against delicate tissue and thus clogging and not drawing an fluids up.


I believe your Bird has a fairly typical syndrome of Canker causing inflammation and debris, which has blocked the passage from Crop to Stomach.


if you can then, 'spigot' the Pigeon as described avove, have a good bright Light so you can see well into her Throat as you do it, and carefully suction out any liquids in the Crop.

Once done, you can massge the base of the Crop from the outside with your finger tips.


Then, tube 'in' the Medications, mixed in ACV-Water.

No food or water access for her for a few days.


Her hydration will begin once the Crop is passing.


I do not know Nystatin doses.


But, in my opinion, you need the Nystatin, the Metronidazole ( ideally, or, other zole if that is all you have ) and the ACV...these together.


Soon, if and when the Crop is passing, feel free to add an antibiotic if you like...but no point in doing so now.

Consider the 'Reglan' also, or, a trip to a friendly Vet and have him or her do a Reglan injection into some Muscle.


I always cut the ends of the Catheter to an acute angle, and flame melt it a tiny bit so it is less sharp...whether for feeding or whatever.

A true Peciatric Urethral Catheter will already have the double holes, but as-s, is way too long, and the hole on the side tends to be too small for these purposes.

I cut those to be about 6 inches long, and re-do the end...fitting the 'funnel' end to a plain nose Syringe.

Lube the Catheter with Olive Oil...and twirl lightly as you let Grvity do the work, rather than in any way 'pushing' it in.

Make sense?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Be careful with the flame, I ruined a few before I got what I wanted.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato's image of the Catheter end is 'Outstanding'...


And be very sensitive in drawing the fluids, elect a Syringe which slides very easily...since even with the two diametric holes, it is still possible to have both holes up against or in a fold, of sensitive Tissues...or one hole clogged with a Seed, the other hole against Tissue, so bear in mind constantly, that this is all a pretty delicate thing.

If feeling even a tiny resistence in drawing, push some fluid back, turn the whole unit a little, raise a little and lower again, and resume...

Be looking into her Throat as you do this...go slow, go easy...be methodical...

When 'spigoted' in the 'Burrito', the Bird is held between one's legs, so they are straight up...left hand's fingers from behind their Head, lift the Head from below the Jaw...pulling their Neck into a vertical line, so the Catheter slides down easily...one's own Legs hold them at their tummy and tail region with the extra Cloth occuring there, with their Legs straight 'back' against their Tail...and making sure no pressure of any kind as brought upon their Crop, byt the Towel or Cloth or anything else.




Dump drawn fluids into a Coffee Cup set to a convenient place for reaching it...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil has given you great instructions, two things I will add: one, if it "sticks" while suctioning, push forward very gently on the plunger to release the suction pressure, then I don't draw the tube out any, but rotate the tube/syringe a bit to see if it will start to draw again. Two, don't start the suctioning with the plunger right at the bottom of the syringe leave a 1/4" gap or so, this way if it "sticks" from first draw you have an area to push forward into to release the suction pressure.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

My tube is very small and I'm not sure whether I can get a proper cut in it. I definitely can't do the triangular cut that you did, Dobato. What do I do? 

I'm tempted to call the wildlife rehabilitation people, but honestly I've heard they euthanize pigeons more than anything else and I don't like the sound of that.

Argh, I am trying to cut the hole and it is near impossible. This thing is really difficult to poke a hole through, as it's tiny and seems thick. It is literally the only tubing I could find at our only veterinary supply store. I've used it in the past and even for crop suction, but not perfectly and only with small birds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Try the "V" cut alone. make it just a touch bigger and a touch longer, not too much or the end will collapse on itself.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I doubt the wildlife people would be able to do this.

Any home medical supply place will have all sorts of Catheters.

For this sort of thing, a No. 8 or No. 10 French is good...too small is not so good.

Pediatric Urinary Catheters are best, the 'clear' or transparant kind ideally, lets you see what is being drawn up as you draw, even though the Syringe lets you see also...and get the ones with the 'socket' end so it fits onto any plain nose Syringe.

Get the SOFTEST 'silicone' type possible...and even hold it under moderately Hot 'Hand Washing' sort of hot, Water for a minute to make it really soft, then use it right then and there.

20 mL Syringe is good for this, but a 10 is fine also...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Do you know of any home medical supply stores that specifically have larger tubes? Everything is closed around this time of day, that is the problem. I should have acted earlier. However, even then, I'm not sure which places would have anything like this.

I managed to make a small hole and a somewhat angular cut at the tip, so I'll just have to see how that does...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Guys... I'm freaked out.

So I started to suction some stuff out, it surprisingly worked, but immediately I started to see what looks like blood, but is very evidently not _just_ blood. I have no idea what this is. It started to suction out pretty fast so I took the tube out. This stuff is weird... Let me get pictures...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, it's hard to just "cut" this stuff, I used a pair of cuticle cutters for nails, the kind that look like a small pair of angled wire cutters, you know the kind. Vasp try and get as much as you can out, stay calm.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Go glowly with it...

She may have some gooey Blood blobs or clots in her Crop from prior Tube-end-abrasions against infected Canker Lesion sites...the Lesions can be pretty delicate that way sometimes, and will bleed easilyif disturbed.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It looks like tomato sauce, really meaty and there appear to be "clumps". I'm just afraid that I'm hurting her.

I got some pictures.



















It also smells very bad. Should I just continue?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She went and lay down after that. I imagine this is taking too much of a toll on her.

I really can't know what happened to her. She could have bad internal injuries, or a bad case of canker. She is quite skinny, her keel bone is sharp. Sigh... I don't think we have much of a chance with this one.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, I don't think you are hurting her. Her body does not want what is down there going through it so I would give her a bit of a rest, carefully get the rest out, then give her 10cc of re-hydrating fluid with the metronidazole and Amoxicillin and Nystatin and then leave her for the night.

If in the morning things have moved, I would give her 6cc of 1:1 honey and water for energy and 10cc more of hydration fluids an hour later and we can reevaluate.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I got out quite a lot but all of her crop contents are bloody. All of it. There are also chunks of stuff; I think this is canker lesions that have unfortunately scraped off. There is still some stuff in her crop but I think the formula I fed her indeed did pass, and what remains is a lot of this canker and blood. I'm not seeing much formula.

Should I stop doing this and feed her medication? My fear is that I am causing more bleeding by doing this, every time. This is significant bleeding. I imagine it was on her beak because she vomited it at some point or another. It may have been caused by trauma. For instance, if she was hit by something or if an animal got her, they could have hit her crop and throat and caused this bleeding, as it must have been there before I got her as this blood stuff was all over her beak with no wound apparent.

I also have another dilemma. I lost the scoop to my ronidazole. Does anyone know the dosage in tsp?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh yeah...the static Crop fluids are toxic, and will smell bad, and should be gently removed.


If feeling confident, you can sluice things out with Saline or with light ACV Water, and then suction that out also, get it all fairly clean in there.


Who knows what she had eaten, or drank, which may have been fermenting and spoiling in there for some days now.


Might not be Blood, might be, hard to tell from here.


She may have eaten dry Cat food or something which would melt and dissolve into a reddish tan sort of color...who knows.

Sluice things out...add Meds-solution as Dobato mentions...

Supply warmth so she can be on or off a heating pad with a Towel over it...


Cross Fingers...


Have her on a clean fresh Towel...

See what the Morning brings.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It is definitely blood from what I have seen.  It sometimes separates from these chunks, whatever they are, and it looks very red.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I lost the scoop to my ronidazole. Does anyone know the dosage in tsp?


Vasp, you can do this 1tsp=5000mg, divide the one teaspoon into 5 even piles, which would be 1000mg each. Take this 1000mg add it to 40mL of water, you now have a 2.5% Ronidazole solution (25mg per 1cc). The dose for pigeons is 12.5mg/kg once a day. So if she weighed say 280gm, you would give her 0.14cc from a 1cc syringe once a day. If you need and have an exact weight for her, I can calculate the exact dose if you would like.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...do what you can to get her Crop clean...add the Med Cocktail and ACV Water ( and not much at that, say, whole Coctail of combined meds in ACV Water, being like 3 or 4 CCs...hope it can trickle through and be doing somehting...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I couldn't completely empty her crop, but it's mostly there.

I think it emptied a bit over today. Definitely. So it's moving, and she is pooping but very little.

Anyway, the dose on the back says 1 scoop (which is 4g) per 1 gallon of water, which is sort of insane. I don't have the scoop and they don't say how many ml a scoop is.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, if you get a cooking teaspoon and follow the instructions I gave you, you will be very close with correct dosing. Make sure it is a level teaspoon, not compressed, leveled off with a knife or a business card. Also make sure you shake the mixture like heck, to ensure the med is completely dissolved into the water. Doing it this way will allow you more precise and better control of her dosing. You did good getting as much as you could out, let's get her meds into her, hydrated and off to bed.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I am on it. Thank you so much for your help with this.

I also got a picture of one of her poops. It looks black, which I hear means there is bleeding in the digestive tract somewhere. However, if she has bleeding into her crop and is digesting this, and has been for a while (from the looks of it), could that also make the poop black like this?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Looks like an 'old' stalled 'poop-snake' that the rehydration coaxed along to be deposited...may have a little old Blood in it also.

Urates look typical of Trichomoniasis infection, with a little extra water being dumped probably by the Intestines.


Use 'warm' Water for mixing the Meds...they will dissolve better that way.

ACV-Water in fact...they will not only dissolve better yet, but, will be aided in their workings...( 3 or 4 Tablespoons of 'Braggs" Apple Cider Vinegar to the Gallon of Water, or 1, to a Quart )

If there is fine white or grey white 'netting' on the poop, this may be taken as suggesting a Candida issue...but you are to be using the Nystatin for that anyway...so...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I've heard that white netting on the poop can be indictative on Candida or more frequently anaerobic bacterial infections, which Ronidazole will fix anyway... That is why I got it, for a baby bird that had an anaerobic bacterial infection. Anyway, she didn't start pooping fecal matter until after I fed her, so it must have moved along somewhat. 

I just wanted to say, my Ronidazole is called Ronivet by Vetafarm and it's 60mg/g of it. Is this okay? I think it may alter the dosage... As they need 12.5mg/kg?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, I take that anything is moving through him as a positive sign. Let's hope that the morning brings a bit of improvement in him. I may not be around in the morning, so 6cc 1:1 water/honey, an hour later meds in 10cc of hydration fluid, when his crop drains, 1:1 honey and water again, an hour later fluids, if it's about 12 hours later, meds again, if not just fluids until the 12 hour point, then meds, even if you have to mix it in the 1:1 honey and water mix.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I've heard that white netting on the poop can be indictative on Candida or more frequently anaerobic bacterial infections, which Ronidazole will fix anyway... That is why I got it, for a baby bird that had an anaerobic bacterial infection. Anyway, she didn't start pooping fecal matter until after I fed her, so it must have moved along somewhat.
> 
> I just wanted to say, my Ronidazole is called Ronivet by Vetafarm and it's 60mg/g of it. Is this okay? I think it may alter the dosage... As they need 12.5mg/kg?


The meds she is on will cover both issues you mention. 

Vasp thanks for clarifying the concentration, so it's 60mg of pure med, Ronidazole per gram Ronivet? If this is correct I need to recalculate your mixing instructions.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, it is 60mg of Ronidazole/g.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK new instructions.

One level cooking teaspoon into 10mL of water, shake like heck. You now have a 3% Ronidazole solution (30mg Ronidazole per 1cc). You will give her 0.10cc of this solution (3.3mg) once a day.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Wow, that is a lot of Ronivet for that much! It stains the water pink and it will be very, very pink. The instructions say 4g/4l of drinking water, so it is very confusing. But if she is only getting 0.1cc, then that is very little indeed. The tiniest syringes I have are like 1cc syringes.

Actually, how many grams are in a teaspoon of this stuff? It doesn't say. Maybe I will weigh a bunch and see. I think it's just... very confusing for me.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, 0.10cc, this is to the first line on a 1cc syringe (1/10th of 1cc). The color will not matter, my calculation is good. Vasp we are basicly dealing with known weights and concentrations. For just about any powdered med, 1 level teaspoon = 5grams, plus or minus a small bit. If we know there are 60mg med to 1gram then; 5 grams (one level teaspoon) will = 300mg of pure med. If we take this 300mg of pure med (1 level teaspoon of Ronivet) and add it to 10ml of fluid, in our case water, we end up with a concentration of 30mg/cc of med (300mg divided by 10mL water = 30mg of med per 1cc).

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right. I just wanted to let you know that 1/4tsp is about 1g on my gram scale, so if I were to follow the directions on the package, I would have to be putting 1 tsp into 4 litres of water. That said, that is a MASSIVE amount and not based on what an individual pigeon needs per day, so I will mix up what you said and give it to her now. I never really like the instructions on meds like this because we have no idea how much water those pigeons are going to be drinking as it is given to them as their only source of drinking water.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I never really like the instructions on meds like this because we have no idea how much water those pigeons are going to be drinking as it is given to them as their only source of drinking water.


Exactly the point.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right, I just gave her the first dose. We will see what happens.

Should I store the rest of the mixture in the fridge overnight?

Oh, and for clarification: I feed 0.1cc of this every 12 hours?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Leaving all these dosage details to you and Karyn...but, just wishing to remind, the medicines being used now, should be continued for five days...maybe even seven for some of them.

Bird should have no access to any food or water on their own for the time being...no formula untill Crop seems to be passing well, then thin formula tubed in for the next several days...no seeds for a business week from now, at soonest...and only small amounts of Liquids or formula, however often, once the Crop is passing things better, via Mr. Tube, or, supervised ACV-Water drinking.

She can coast and fast a few days...and if concerned, then allow her unsweetened acid Fruit Juices, Black Cherry for example, or Elderberry, or 'Nutrical' in Water, tubed in for some calories and a little nutriment.


Any solid foods too soon, or even formula too soon, and it could wreck everything in piling up against inflamitory debris blockages, and making a 'Dam', where liquids as such, could have passed.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh, good, thank you very much. I was wondering about how long I'd have to dose her (given that she actually starts to improve and continues to fight). I think I might hydrate her again before I sleep, because I'm thinking that might help the crop to empty completely. ACV water, I think I would use. She actually pooped again, so that's good. Maybe things are moving more.

When I start feeding formula, how much should I feed her and how often? Is there any sort of estimate? I only have 10ml syringes but I can pick up bigger ones at the vet's office. I'm going to go search for urological tubing that is bigger and even suitable for crop emptying, tomorrow.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> All right, I just gave her the first dose. We will see what happens.
> 
> Should I store the rest of the mixture in the fridge overnight?
> 
> Oh, and for clarification: I feed 0.1cc of this every 12 hours?


OK , good. Yes, in the fridge.

No, 0.10cc once a day.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I think I might hydrate her again before I sleep, because I'm thinking that might help the crop to empty completely.


Vasp, careful with this, make sure that the crop has at least 3/4 emptied, as I know it's only hydration fluid, but sometimes just the weight of too much fluid in the crop seems to slow things down. If in doubt, leave her until the morning. Then start with some energy, the 1:1 honey + water.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Dobato said:


> OK , good. Yes, in the fridge.
> 
> No, 0.10cc once a day.
> 
> Karyn


Oh, I see. I think I was confused by your outline of what to feed tomorrow and must have confused the medication with honey water. I will feed her that tomorrow, if all is well with the crop. If not I'll go out and find a proper tube.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Oh, good, thank you very much. I was wondering about how long I'd have to dose her (given that she actually starts to improve and continues to fight). I think I might hydrate her again before I sleep, because I'm thinking that might help the crop to empty completely. ACV water, I think I would use. She actually pooped again, so that's good. Maybe things are moving more.



For now, for the time being...good fequent Hydration and her Med-Cocktails, as her Crop permits.

She was probably De-Hydrated up till now...also.


Good hydration here on, so long as her Crop allows it...will be good for the meds to work best, good for her all round.





> When I start feeding formula, how much should I feed her and how often? Is there any sort of estimate? I only have 10ml syringes but I can pick up bigger ones at the vet's office. I'm going to go search for urological tubing that is bigger and even suitable for crop emptying, tomorrow.



We can worry about that on Saturday...


If Crop is passing Liquids well...get some 'Nutrical' ( any Petsmart, comes in a tube, may be called something a little different, it is a brown 'goo' for puppies or kittens), and some Black Cherry Juice ( Health Food Store or whoever else as sells a plain kind, nothing added, no sugar...) or one of those Super Greens Drinks ( all natural, juices of green vegetables only ) filter it if need be through clean tee shirt cloth, and tube those in, cut with light ACV-Water...and that will be PLENTY of calories and nourishment also for her to go on till 'formula' may begin.

If Water will pass...those will pass...


Lol...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Honey-ACV-Water even...would be good...


But yeah...as Karyn rightly reminds, 'small' amounts at a time for hydration things and or meds and hydration things on one...


If this means seven times a day, or eight, or six, then that's the deal...feel the Crop, see how things are going...Crop is in bad shape right now, the passages to the Stomach are in bad shape...too much liquid and the basal duct area can sort of fold or collapse in or who knows, so keep it light...and often...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you! Those are great suggestions. I've been all about natural supplements for birds lately, I have a cupboard full of supplements because of this, so I like the idea of giving her black cherry juice and Nutri-cal, as it is called (I did a google search). I'm not sure if our PetSmart will have it, but I'll take a look. It doesn't have Benebac, for instance, so you never know.

I will keep an eye on her crop first and foremost, however.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh yeah...one can come up with really good 'Liquids' with no 'Solids' in them, which are great for them when fighting an illness or when into recovery phases.

The original 'Nutrical' anymore is hard to find, but like-same things are there on the shelf in the puppy-kitten isle, with similar names...Nutri-this, or Nutri that, Brown 'goo' in a plastic Tube.


Right now though, for her condition, any ( even fine ) 'solids' could be a disaster...so...gotta stick to liquid things, and, may as well have them be nutritious, too!

No need to over do, but, easy going good and intentional 'Liquid' Nutrition now, is a nice thing to do, you bet.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, good news to start the morning off with. Her crop seems to have emptied over night and she did poop a few more times. It looks quite bad but at least things are moving. I'll get some pictures later.

Edit: I just fed her honey water, everything went well, I didn't see any blood on the tubing this time. I am met with quite a bit of resistance in just one part of her esophagus so I wonder if there are significant lesions there?

Here is a picture of the poops I found this morning. Do they look typical of trichomoniasis?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Just going to keep updating for the rest of the day, mostly to keep track and let you guys know what's going on...

I've given her 1/1 honey/water, and also a mixture of rice water (boiled rice strained, the water saved, it's very good for dehydration and so easy on the crop--I've used it in baby cockatiels who are incredibly susceptible to crop problems) and antibiotics, and she's pooped more. She seems a little more alert today, her crop is certainly emptying, and I haven't seen blood on the tube... yet. I hope to keep them from having another bleed.

Here's what I think happened. Unknowingly, I gave her seeds on her first night here. I know she drank some water upon looking at the dish, and there are a couple seeds in it. I suspect that she ate some seeds, and on the way down they irritated the lesions in her esophagus. There was no bleeding in her throat the first time I crop fed her, and I always use olive oil and am very careful so I'm not sure I caused it. I probably would have seen the blood the first time if I had. In any case, there was blood the second time, after the night she'd had with her seeds, so I imagine that is what happened. Plus, I could palpate seeds in her crop, so I'm pretty sure they got in there.

I'm going to keep hydrating and medicating her throughout the day. Making a trip to PetSmart later to pick up some new formula (I feed something called Nutri-Start, it's rice-based and better for sick birds) for feeding in a couple days when she's ready for it, as well as looking for that Nutrical. I will also look around for some juice, and having better tubing on hand would be a good idea, although I am hesitant to use a larger tube to feed her because I already am met with resistance in her esophagus where I imagine there may be lesions.

Anyway, that's that.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Correct...no formula yet...wait a few days...only liquids now as have no meaningful suspended 'solids' in them.


Petsmart will have 'Nutrical', if the name is slightly changed now, it is on the puppy-kitten supply isle, where the vitamins and other suppliment supplies are.


Lesions can have frail surfaces sometimes...lube the Catheter well with Olive Oil, use no pressure in letting it slide in to her Crop, twirl it gebtly as you seek a path of least resistence...Warm the Catheter in Hot Water for a few seconds before use if need be, to make it even softer...hold her ( 'spigoted' and so she is vertical ) so her Neck, and hence, Esophagus, is making a straight line to the Crop...head tilted back so all the pathway is all in a straight line.

Palpate entire Neck prior to these ministerings to see if any lumps are present, and, if so, always be especially careful negotiating them with the Catheter.

Any Health Food Store will have good, plain Juices and or concentrates...Black Cherry, Elderberry...both are good.


Poops seem to show old previously stalled fecal matter coming through...she was probably seriously dehydrated previously.

Urates suggest recovery phase from the Trichomoniasis infection is proceeding constructively.

Now you know...is seeing 'yellow' Urate conditions associated with Canker/Trichomoniasis, or, seeing suggestions of anaerobic or Candida issues, do not feed Seeds unless certain that the Crop and deeper features of their digestive system, is able to pass and process them.

Any home medical supply store will have a variety of Syringes and Catheters.

A No. 8 Fr Pediatric Urinary Catheter with the plain 'socket' end, the clear kind, soft SILICONE I think, will be found best...cut to the length needed, make the end cut at an angle, gently flame blunt the cut end for a split-second to blunt it's profile slightly. Socket end fits perfectly onto a plain end Syringe snout.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

When I got her, she was pooping white urates only. No fecal matter. I then fed her 10cc of formula, tucked her in with seeds and water available to her, and she ate some seeds overnight. It was difficult to know what could be wrong without seeing any real poops, and until she was fed she did not pass any fecal matter. So all in all, that formula must have helped somewhat. But now I do indeed know not to offer seeds or other solids at all until I'm sure the crop function is okay and that the problem is not canker. There are always lessons to be learned.

It is a little difficult to hold her vertically as you say, because she's a spunky little thing and will resist and kick her little feet against the towel. I burrito her and hold her between my knees and try to keep her as vertical as possible, however. The tube slides very easily because it's thoroughly coated with olive oil, until a certain point, but I try to guide it gently and slowly. When I feed her the medication, I use a 1cc syringe and just deposit it high in the esophagus, not to the crop, the tube is so long that it won't actually work. This has worked fine for other pigeons for me, and she takes it well... Is this okay? I suppose, whatever works for her. It is not as stressful either.

I will try to get her black cherry or elderberry juice and Nutrical or something similar today. I will let you know. Thank you very much for your direction and guidance. It helps.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Feet and Legs need to be straight back against her tummy-Tail area...they can not 'kick' then.


If need be, Tape them there first, with some sort of forgiving Tape...untape them once done with the procedure.

Lay the small Towel across your knees-thighs as you sit...the 'hollow' part in the center, is where you gently 'press' the Bird/Pigeon whose Legs are being held straight 'back'...press them gently to keep them put, wrap the left side of the cloth over, then the right, snug enough to be snug, but not 'tight' of course.

Extra cloth left at the Tail area...Crop area about a couple inches back from where the front edge of the Cloth ends, spigot them then arranged as that, there will be no kicking or Leg action.

If they wriggle out of it, pause and re-do.



She probably needed to be rehydrated first...before any food or formula...in the initial phases when you got her.

Whte Urates which are like Watercolor 'paint' may be supposed as deriving from early Canker-related illness not yet 'yellow'.

Always make sure a Pigeon or other Bird is well re-hydrated before any food or formula, if not seeing moist poops from the get-go...found Birds are usually 'downed' Birds, are usually dehydrated Birds.


Like that...


I usually draw up amy meds, or dissolve Tablets or Pills in the Syringe with a little ACV Water...then drawing up whatever other Liquid for them, and administer that way.


I never try administering minute amounts of meds with a minute syringe....even though one can, of course.


I just prefer to make any procedure as worthwhile as possible, so, Meds and Liquids at the same time is what I do.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

That's a good idea and I'll probably do that from now on - giving the meds and other supplements at once. Also, thank you for the description for how to hold them when feeding. That makes it clearer.

She is now passing bile, mostly, I think. Which I suppose would make sense, as I am not feeding her any solids. Does that make sense? Is that what I should expect to see?

First she pooped this one:










And then this one, right after another "meal":










I hope her passing only bile is okay, given that she is getting no solids.

Her crop is emptying better each time. And faster. I think I am combatting her dehydration and that is improving things. She is quite alert, much more than yesterday.

Sorry for all the poop pictures.  I want to keep track.

Also, prior to me feeding her, that watercolor white description for the urates is spot-on. That is what they were like, and that is all they were: just urates.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, I just wanted to say I think you were brave yesterday in suctioning this poor birds crop. I know you may have never done it before and doing something like that can always leave one in doubt if they are doing the right thing.

I am very happy that while still quite ill, she is brighter and her crop has started to move things in a better way.

Everything looks and sounds fine to me, Phil is giving you good guidance. In the last two photos, yes mostly bile, and you are right, this is to be expected when you remove the solids from her diet. As long as you keep her well hydrated, which you are doing, and give her the 1:1 honey 3-4 times a day for energy, she should be fine going a few days without "real" food. I will let Phil guide you when, and how, to progress her back to real food.

You are doing a great job with her.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I've actually suctioned food out of crops before, but not blood. I had to suction yeast and bad food out of a baby bird's crop not a long time ago. It's a good thing I'm not easily disgusted in the least. It was scary, though, because I was always wondering... Am I causing bleeding? Is this bleeding active? It was less worrying when I realized it wasn't, but the fact that my tube isn't good makes it more difficult and worrisome...

I am glad to hear that her poops are fine. I will keep up the intensive care.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I went out and bought not Nutrical but something similar. Called "Puppy booster" or something. It doesn't have any meat in it, although it has some sort of fish oil in it. It has mostly soy oil, corn syrup, molasses... It has high calories and high protein, and it's sort of a brown gel. I mixed a little bit into her last meal.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> I went out and bought not Nutrical but something similar. Called "Puppy booster" or something. It doesn't have any meat in it, although it has some sort of fish oil in it. It has mostly soy oil, corn syrup, molasses... It has high calories and high protein, and it's sort of a brown gel. I mixed a little bit into her last meal.



That should be fine...


Glad the how-to for this or that has been useful!


Oye, there IS a lot to all this...


So...yeah...for now, as you are doing, I'd sya keep her well ed...adding nutritous Liquids or Liquid Foods....keep an Eye on the Crop, keep those Urates coming...



We never know what there is going for inflamitory debris in their digestive tracts with these things...once all other symptoms of the Trichomoniasis infection(s) appear to be gone, there can still be debris artefacts not released from their lesion sites...

How long to wait for these to let go, and, be passed on through the digestive system, I don't know...but, erring on prudence, is probably best...since they might not let go till several days after all other symptoms have abated...and or one needs to keep the Bird on the meds for a while longer, even once the Urates are white and Tooth-Paste again.

Since these inflamitory debris artefacts when not released from their lesion sites can cause a 'Dam' to occur if any solids or even formula is fed, it is an iffy situation...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

So the question is, when is it safe to feed solids? She is so thin, under her crop her keel bone is like a dagger. She obviously needs real food, at some point or another, but giving it too soon can be very bad. How will we be able to tell when it's time to start feeding formula?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If she had never been 'clogged', it would be easier, and not a danger for Formula or even small whole Seeds soon after.

Since she had been clogged, or, at least had things going on which suggested she might have been clogged...it is all a kind of a matter of educated guess as for when she will have managed to get unclogged-enough, and or for all inflamitory debris presumed to be in areas of her digestive system to have let go from the lesion sites, and, for the debris to be passed along and out.

Debris above the Gizzard, would be masticated into slush and digested.

Debris below the Gizzard, would basically have to be pooped out more or less as is.

I was kinda thinking 'Saturday' or maybe Sunday, if things look favorable...

Usually I wait till I have a few days on a row of 'White' Urates...just as a way to bide time.


And, with Nutritious Liquids till then, she will be no worse for wear...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, that is good to hear. How much of the nutrical would you put in the food? I put a very small amount into the small amount I keep in a mug in the fridge for her to reheat later. I just am not sure if she's going to be getting enough, and I want to be sure she is.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Uhhhh...see if there is a Calorie per Ml figure on the label.


I usually just take a little Tea Cup, put in a good three inch 'squig' of the 'Nutrical', add a slug of Black Cherry Juice, a few drops of ACV, Tablespoon of Water, stirr till all is dissolved...and, if it is an adult Pigeon who is lately 'thin', and presently frail, figure maybe 5 cc per Meal of that little 'Soup'...meals every three or four Hours...or, if the Bird will handle it, 7 cc worth, per meal.

Fresh Carrot Juice would be good also, but it may cause the poops or urates to be yellowish! Lol...


Fresh Carrot and Celery Juice combo, and Nutrical, would be 'devine'...


Do you have a Juicer?


( Not counting meds being added of course...)


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, we have a great juicer. I haven't entirely gotten a hang of all the bells and whistles... But it's a great one. I could probably make all sorts of interesting stuff with it.

I will have to see how many calories are in however much of it.

Also, upon palpating her crop I think there are still some seeds left behind. The rest is emptying, all the liquids that is, but the seeds. There aren't many, but I can feel them now. Should I finally go get a bigger tube (didn't have time for that today) and suck them out tomorrow IF they will fit, which is not definite, or should I just continue hydrating her and hoping they will pass when she is more hydrated? In my experience dehydrated birds will pass fluids but not solids, so that's a possibility but I don't like the idea that those seeds have been sitting there for a while. Surely not as bad as formula, but...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Big seeds ( on an otherwise empty Crop ) can be gently 'massaged' up and out their Mouth...one at a time.

Small Seeds would be pretty difficult to do that though.

I do not know how one would get small Seeds out of a Crop...if a Catheter has only one Hole, to grip a Seed, one would not be able to tell if they were suctioning against a Seed, or, Tissue.

A Tube big enough to pull a Seed in, having the 'safety' Hole, might work...but it would be pretty hard to be lucky enough for the Tip to locate a Seed or Seeds...but, who knows, might work...just make sure the end has the hole on the end, and, a second hole up a little bit, so no Tissue can get suctioned against the inlet.


The ACV-Water will prevent the Seeds from fermenting or spoiling anyway...


You are right, dehydration will tend to stop the digestive and intestinal passings, while still allowing a little urates.

That these Seeds are still in the Crop, and remain there after she has been rehydrated well, does suggest there is an inflamitory issue remaining between the Crop and Stomach...so, in a way, these Seeds which have been in there, will be a sort of Baromoter I guess, if left be, for when her Crop is passing better again, once they dis-appear down to the Stomach.

I would think, may as well leave them.

See when they pass...

Watch for poops which seem t be from those Seeds, vis a vie her 'Liquid' diet.


Juices of Celery, and or other Leafy Greens should be fine...Carrot Juice is fine, if maybe one would water it down a little...

I misplaced my Juicer somehow, and wish I could figure out where I put it!


For them and me..!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, with the seeds, I agree with Phil to leave them. It's not unusual for a few stray seeds to get caught in pockets in the crop. These are usually pulled along when "real" food is added back. They should not pose a problem "fermenting" wise, as the meds she is on will take care of that. Vasp, can we get a "real" weight on her. do you have a scale? This would allow for a better calculation on just how much room we have between balancing immediate healing and maintaining body mass.

Also, I think we could be more safely aggressive with the Ronidazole. Medpet makes a Ronidazole based med called Ronsec that has 25mg of Ronidazole per tablet, their instructions are 1 pill, wait a day, then a second pill, so 50mg of Ronidazole over three days. With our dosing we would have only given 10mg over the same period. I think it would be safe to give her the Ronidazole twice a day, so 0.10cc (3.3mg) every 12 hours, for the next 2-3 days to be more aggressive in treating the canker.

http://www.medpet.co.za/pigeon/Ronsec.htm

Karyn


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I saw mention of blood in the crop and just wanted to pop in and suggest using Carafate/sucralfate. You'll probably have to get this from a vet (although maybe a pharmacy would be willing to sell it to you if you explained what it was for). It's really good for helping tissue erosions heal, and I've used it with very good results. If you are giving meds, you would need to give the Carafate at least 1 hr apart from them.

Jennifer


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

About the seeds, I imagined they could just stay there until she was ready to digest them. I'm very hesitant to massage the big ones up out of her crop due to any canker lesions that may be harmed. If they caused bleeding going down, I imagine they'd cause it going back up. Were it something like formula, obviously I would be taking it out right away. Her crop, however, appears to empty entirely aside from these seeds, so they don't pose a massive threat right now. I think a few seeds are just starting to pass now. I have been gently massaging her crop and I think it has helped a ton with regards to how fast her crop emptying is, and also has helped empty out some of the seeds.

I agree that we should be more aggressive with the Ronidazole; when you compare it to that dosage, it does seem like very little in the bigger scheme of things. I've finally figured out a pretty reasonable dosage on the Nystatin, as well. I'll give her 0.1cc of the Ronidazole twice daily.

Also, I do have a scale. I'm not sure if she'll sit still on it, but I'll give it a go.

pdpbison - I love my juicer, drinking juices is so good for people and animals. Particularly birds. My birds have often benefitted from fresh juices, so I might just mix some up for the pigeon. I've only made very basic stuff - carrot and apple juices, mostly, with some greens. Still, they are delicious. For her, I think a juice of carrot/celery/leafy greens would be a good idea as well.

And thank you, Jennifer, for that suggestion. I had no idea that medication even existed, so there you go. I don't think there is any more bleeding in her crop but if the issue arises in the future, I will keep that in mind and see what I can find.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She's 269 grams. She is so skinny.

I've noticed she is pooping a lot more frequently. In two hours or so, she's had at least 4 or 5 whereas before she'd have probably none.

On the gram scale, she had this one:










It looks pretty nasty. There are also air bubbles. I know, I know, I am a poop nut, but I think it can give so many clues about what is going on in their system. So, pigeon folks, what does this say about her? The yellow color is quite obvious; sort of yolk-y. There are threads of white on the poop as well.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Sorry for my silly question, but after reading all the thread, it wasn't clear to me if you gave this bird routine antibiotics for bites. Did you give him Clavamox (or similar) or not?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good mention Pawbla...


Hi Vasp,

I thought we were? Uhhh, you were? Antibiotcs?


If not, it would be good to do.


Any recent Lesions which were bleeding internally, could have gotten Crop or upper GI Bacteria in her Bloodstream, so.


Double check your Nystatin and Ronidazole doses...seems like the results so far are slower than they should be.

If old doses appear to check out well for what they should be, I would say raise them, since they have not been working very well as they were.


Scale poop suggests to me, a continueing Trichomonal/anaerobe infection...continueing Candida infection...but, showing fecal matter which is not old and stale for having been stalled.


Apple Carrot Celery Juice would be fine...they can manage Apple of Apple Juice well and it is good for them.


Meds should be -


Anti-Trichomonal

Anti-Candida

General broad spectrum Antibiotic

ACV-Water used to no less than three tablespoons of ACV to a Gallon, wherein, is giving Juises or other Liquids, find a way to add enough ACV to them, for the proportion to be kept. Maybe make a small reserve of ACV Water which is "4X" as say, three or four Tablespoons of ACV to a Quart.


3 parts Juice or other Liquid...one part "4X" ACV-Water, viola...

Use the drinking mix ACV Water for mixing 'NUTRICAL' or other also.


This will help with her illnesses in it's way also.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I am giving her broad spectrum antibiotics, yes. It is the sort in which you just use it as the main water source, which is what I am doing. I've used it before many times and with great success. It is Amoxicillin with Tylan, marketed as "Amtyl". She should be getting a fair amount of it. She did not have a bite, though. She has an old, small scabbed injury on her chest area but I do not believe it is necessarily from a cat. It does not look infected and certainly is and has been taking care of itself. She was only assumed to be attacked by a cat because of the blood on her beak when she was found; the blood was actually from her crop, as she must have been regurgitating. Probably from the canker. There were no wounds on her beak. I could tell it was from her crop because of the foul odor, and that there were no wounds. So, if she was attacked by a cat, it was quite a long time ago and she is on antibiotics anyway. Thank you for your concern.

She is getting Nystatin for any fungal infections, Amoxicillin for any bacterial infections, and Ronidazole for Trichomoniasis. Remember, Karyn decided that the Ronidazole dose wasn't high enough so we are now doubling it. I hope that makes the improvement faster.

Also, the poop on the gram scale was far more yellow and bad looking than her recent ones. Many of them have the fecal matter, but otherwise are surrounded by clear fluid. So that is good.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, with the Ronidazole. The information I posted, 12.5mg/Kg, once a day for this med, was taken out of my desk reference book for animal formulary and crossed referenced with an on-line veterinary site that has a section on avian formulary. However, when I came across the Ronidazole formulated med, Ronsec by Medpet, a large respected company, I thought it may be prudent to increase your little one's dosage, but still be well below what is given in the Ronsec, as I want to make sure we are aggressive against any canker that is present. Sounds like the rest is about right, please keep us updated. At 269 grams, while light, I think allows us a touch of leeway, to do what we did to get her cleaned out and Phil, I am sure, will help you get her started on something more substantial, food wise, shortly, to start getting some weight packed back on her.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I trust your dosages, but it is true that sometimes there is enough leeway that some people give a lot more of the same drug than others, as such would be the case with Ronsec. Being more aggressive in this situation seems like a good thing to do.

She's very thin and it does worry me. What she's getting is very nutritious, but it's not all that it could be. I'll probably have to give her supplemental hand feedings for a long time because she came to me with such a poor condition. (You can definitely see and feel the keel bone enough to say she is very thin). However, I won't be hasty. Whenever it seems like the right time to get her on solids, I will do so.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I just wanted to say that I fed her our mixture of stuff, with some thin carrot/celery juice as well and ACV water & antibiotics, and I noticed there don't appear to be any seeds left in her crop. Maybe one or two.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good to hear, this is what I eventually expected to happen, that they would get pulled along.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I'll wait to see what Phil thinks about when we can start feeding her.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I thought it would be worthwhile to note that every last seed has emptied from the crop now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Hmmmmm...

Check that 'scab'...soak it in saline-wet Kleenex or whatever, get is softened.

Wish I had known, I'd have said slather 'Neosporin' on it from the get go, and it'd be soft soon enough...but...

I'd say, in some kind and gently way, a tiny bit at a time so no pain for the Pigeon, remove the 'scab'...and see what is there.


She may have been shot, and, may have a deep necrotic 'plug' under that seemingly innocuous 'scab', and this necrotic Plug could be giveing her troubles, as well as a possible wound channel being there, occupied however much, by the 'plug'.


See what you can do on that...go slow, take a half hour even, clean Tweezers, and get the scab off a little at a time...closely trim or pluck any Feathers which may be part of it or in the way.


Maybe... 'thin' Formula for Sunday Brunch...if you feel this is safe to try?

See how that goes.

But hey, she IS making decent fecals from the 'Liquid' diet, so it is not like she has been starving!


I worry!!!!


Seen this phase go wrong a few times, then kicking myself for 'rushing' formula when their system had not resolved remaining inflamitory debris artefacts in the digestive tract.


So, it is a calculated risk...


The longer you wait to try formula, the safer she is...


It would be Okay to wait till Monday say...just to hedge our/your/her Bets...

No need to feel rushed.

Keep up with the Nutritious Liquids...she will do fine on those.




phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> I thought it would be worthwhile to note that every last seed has emptied from the crop now.




Watch for THOSE poops!



And let us know when you see tham having been made...


That...is the 'Horse Race' we are in the Bleachers cheering over now.

"Come on Seabisquit!!!"


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm only a little concerned about picking away at the scab. If she is making improvements, I tend to think whatever it was, if anything, that was going on with the scab is resolving itself... It may or may not be on her crop, may be on her chest, but now that you mention it, it is worth considering that she may have been shot... However, the look of the wound does not seem like a "shot" wound, more like a puncture wound from a cat (our first assumption and hence the prompt antibiotics. I gave them right away, as soon as she came in). However, I could certainly wet it to take a look, try to ascertain whether it is a plug as you said, and take it from there, at least at first.

I suppose I have seen progress and my head is filled with nightmarish visions of the scab coming off and the wound reopening and if that leads into her crop... Lots of problems.

If you think it is the best course of action, however, I will do it.

I will continue the nutritious fluids and see how things go... Of course I feel nervous about her not having had real food for some time now, who knows how long, but I don't want to rush it, either.

She certainly has been pooping a lot more than she did when she came in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Maybe...post a good clear image of the scab?


One where we can see where it is, and, another as a close up.


I can not see it presently, of course....but...BUT...I know only too well, HOW 'well' older Pellet Gun Wound channels can 'hide' under a seemingly little 'scab'...even a scab which is smaller than what the Pellet was for diameter.


This might be what is there, of course...but...it's be nice to know.


Post some images of the scab, and let us see it.


Nutritious Liquid Foods ARE 'real' Foods!!!


Lol...


And a life saver in many of these situations...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

That's very true. If you think about the IVs they put people on when they cannot feed themselves... That's very similar to this. I suppose it is just "liquid food". Perhaps if I just feed it quite often, she will be getting enough to compensate for not getting solids.

I will grab the camera and try to get some clear pictures for you, Phil.



















It is hard to see here, but the scab appears connected to the feather follicle. At first I wondered whether it had been a broken blood feather but upon further inspection it definitely was a scab on the skin. It's hard to tell (and I've palpated the area thoroughly) whether it is on the crop or just below it. When I fill her crop up with fluids, the area around the scab (or under) does not balloon, so you'd think that would mean it isn't. It is pretty close, however, if not. It is also close to her wing.

Also, what do you figure that green spot on her beak is? I wondered since the moment I saw her.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okeydokey...


You know, I get in sick or inured Pigeons, and, maybe they have Canker and also some Bacterial thing, maybe injuries also, maybe predation injuries on top[ of sickness, and we do our rituals and so on, and all goes well, but, something is lingering which seems like something is 'wrong' and it vexes me.


I examine them well when they come in, and, I realize over time, that there is room for improvement, of course, in probably everything I do, and, in the initial exams also.


One aspect of this, is to find a little 'scab', maybe flat, hardly able to be felt, hiding under perfectly undisturbed Feathers.


I remove the scab...and there is a 'dimple', and in the center of the 'dimple', some little bit of old feathers sticking out...these then I pull out gently with a Tweezers...they are damp, maybe smelly, maybe just damp.

What this is, is an old Pellet Gun wound, which has healed over nearly all the way closed, with all the Feather debris and whatever necrotic matter deep inside.

Healed over before I got the Bird, and, too late for me to do anything for it.


Others, the wound channel is still open, and, accessible.

Everyone is different, or can be.


So, the moral of THIS sidebar or Story, is we can miss older Pellet Gun perforations very easily, where the Bird muddled on untill secondary infections or the drain in general saw them being grounded, these perforating injuries can hide under Feathers with no appreciable 'bump' or cue or clue.

And so a little 'scab' is sometimes well worth looking into.

Otherwise, for known and evaluated wounds, I like to see the scab left alone, I do not want me or anyone else fussing with them.

But, for un-known wounds, we do well to tenderly, gently, carefully, find out what is 'there'...since what is there may need our or our Vet's attention, or, if too late and healed closed, then at least we find one part of the Puzzle to be informed about...and can decide from there what should be done.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Although in light of the scab being possibly very dangerous, she is digesting her fluids much faster than before, so I've started giving her more... 10cc, and it goes down really fast. That is such an improvement.

Also: in the pictures, it almost appears as if there are two scabs. The one to the left is just matted feathers; the one to the right is the actual scab.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sharp, Narrow, Clean, 'Cuticle Scissors'...trim away Feathers one at a time which are in the way...trim them close to the skin, being careful of course not to kick the skin.

Remove the Scab entirely, along with any Feathers caught in it.

Feathers caught in it may also be 'plucked' bu slowly pulling the Feather till it releases, along with that part of the Scab...go in a circle that way, plucking any Feathers which are scab-caught.


You are not going to hurt anything...it is an old injury of some sort, and, you -dash- we need to see what is under it.


My Vet usually just grabs the Scab-Feather combo, and twists and pulls it off in like two seconds, along with whatever comes with it.

I prefer to be slow and meticuous and gentle and not to disturb the Bird's comfort.



Looks like Paint on her Beak...should come off by scraping with a Finger Nail...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right, Phil. I'll get on it. Should I take pictures when I do get the scab off? I imagine, as it's an old injury, it is not going to start spurting blood or any other overdramatic scenario I've planned out in my head, correct?

Also, what if it is on the crop? Will that mean her crop will start to leak?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

We shall see!!!


Lol...

I do not expect anything dramatic.


If there is a hole there, a wound channel or other, and it is seeping Crop liquids once free to do so with the scab removed, then at least you will know that there is and has been a serious problem all the while, which may require some deferential address to be corrected, so she can get well.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I believe it is on the crop.

I don't want to take it off if it is going to seep crop fluids.

She has _just_ started to digest well, I cannot retract all of that progress.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, either way, I am wetting it and trimming some feathers, will see what it looks like. It looks small and doesn't seem very deep. May be a superficial wound.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I do not think you are understanding this at all.


If there is an unresolved ( and they can not resolve well with debris in them ) pellet Gun wound channel there, it may well prevent the Bird from ever getting well, and will continue to cause complications because of the debris and localized infections from debris which was pushed in by the Pellet.

Granted, if this IS a Pellet Gun wound channel under the scab, it has probably already closed over, or, nearly so.

Got to an Avian Vet please...have them evaluate this.



I am done now.


Good Luck!


Best wishes...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm sorry, Phil. You must understand that I've just never done anything like this before. My apologies if I wasn't trustful and was worrisome.

I took off the scab. There was no leaking or bleeding, although the flesh under it was shiny and a bit reddish. There was some cheesy white stuff on one side; I thought perhaps it was plugging something up. I pulled it, nothing. Just more reddish flesh. Mind you, it is white now because I applied hydrogen peroxide.

Revealing the scab:









After pulling it off:









After pulling out the white stuff on the upper left corner of the wound:









I feel glad that I just sucked it up and did this. 

So what are your thoughts about this wound?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Looks like a not especially old unresolved Pellet Gun entry wound...maybe a week old? Ten days? Dunno, where, one will expect an internal wound channel of at least an inch and a half, maybe more, with Feathers having been pushed in, and, with Feather and Skin debris remaining deeply in the length and base of the Channel.


Find a good Avian Vet, and appeal to them for what can be done at this point for this, which will be debriding, sluicing, flushing, removing 'debris' which is deep in the wound channel...cleaning out things, evaluating the various layers which have been perforated, and, then overseeing a regimen for this injury to heal properly for having been dealt with properly, now that you know it is there.


Possibly the Vet wll wish to do a series of X-Rays for locating the Pellet, and, with a view toward removing it.

Keep meals 'small' so Crop can not fill to where it may leak into the front interstices.


I am glad you were willing to investigate this and see.


This considion would never resolve well on it's own, and, you are lucky there is still a nice 'hole' there for your Vet to be able to see to the necessary debriding procedures.


This may have been contributing to the Blood you were finding in the Crop earlier.


Keep up the medley of Meds...and find a trustworthy experienced Avian Vet for the procedure.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hillary... it's pus. Bird pus is not like ours, it has more the consistancy of cottage cheese.

Phil...good call on finding a vet.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I just want it out there that I am _not_ rich. I want to help this pigeon as much as possible but there is only so much I can afford! The only avian vet in the city charges about $60+ for just an appointment. I have no idea how much it will cost for the procedure for cleaning the wound. The pellet is probably in her digestive system by now. The gizzard. I have heard it is possible to flush such things from the gizzard using certain supplements. I will talk to the vet about that. Sadly, I simply cannot afford surgery for this. That would be many hundreds of dollars, and not doable in our city, either.

I will call my vet and set up an appointment for an evaluation and cleaning. Will see what she has to say.

And who knows if my avian vet here can do much about it at all? What if she has no experience? I can't know. The only CERTIFIED avian vet is in another city. That, again... Would be too much to afford.

How do I take care of the wound for now?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I figured it was pus. Some of it had been packed down, however.



Charis said:


> Hillary... it's pus. Bird pus is not like ours, it has more the consistancy of cottage cheese.
> 
> Phil...good call on finding a vet.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Could be Candida...inflamitory debris, who knows.


Well...hmmmmmmmm...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Phil, seeing as the pellet entered through her crop, wouldn't that mean the internal wound channel, as it were, would have a very short depth? The crop skin is very thin. I can't see it being more than a centimeter thick, which in a sense means there is less to clean here... If I understand this right. Could it really be an inch and a half thick in the crop? I guess I don't understand the dynamics of this wound. I recall palpating things in her crop and feeling a large, slightly odd-shaped object, that I assumed was one of my big, odd-shaped seeds. Which it well could have been. Still, it occurs to me now that it may have been the lead pellet, sitting in her crop as she had not been digesting anything for some time. I am hitting myself for not trying to get it out, and rather letting it sit there and letting it pass through her digestive system!

Given some time in the air, it looks like the wound has taken on a bit of a "protective shield". Looks less raw, moist and pink. Should I continually apply antibiotics to it? I want to get an appointment with the vet tomorrow, but Monday at the latest.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

See if you can feel anything in her Crop which could be a larger Seed, or, possibly spent Pellet, even though anything similar may well have passed already.

Feel and see if anything can be noted in the area opposite the hole, back of her neck, shoulders and so on.


Usually these Wound channels describe a Bullet/Pellet Path originating from below, at whatever angle...Bird sitting on Roof edge looking out, person on the ground fifteen or tweny feet back, shooting somewhat 'up' to hit the Bird in the front or Crop area.

Bird sitting on a Telephone Wire, person shooting 'up' from any angle, but making wound channels which are upward in nature.


Some are from people standing, shooting at Grazing Birds, and will then be of a downward angle.

It is very hard to gues the direction, when the entry wound is in the Crop area, since there is no solid Muscle depth there for devining a wound channel proper.


Depth of wound whether or not any channel as such is present, would be dependent on the Velocity of the Pellet, and, the resistence that Velocity encounters in striking Tissues or Bone.


These wounds usually occur from quite short distances, where Velocity tends to be pretty high...but some occur from greater distences where Velocity and penetration are then low.


So, palpate, pinch, feel, etc, in a friendly Bird easy way, and see if you can find the Pellet.


...realizing, the Pellet could be just about anywhere for having arrived at who knows what angle.



Take a little piece of 3/4 inch by 3/4 inch Paper Towel, smear it well with 'Silva Sulfadiazine' Ointment, and stick it onto ( onto, not into) the 'hole', as a hole cover...best if it is not pulling in Air for the time being.


If you do not have that one, use 'Neosporin'.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This is where an Ontoscope would be nice.

I do not have one, but, I will get one soon.


The Vet needs to see in there, see what is on the far side, and evaluate things.


Vasp, call around, see if you can find a friendly Vet who has some Bird Savvy...explain your situation, Wild Bird, you the care giver, you have only so much time-and-resourses to expend, you have some experience, let them know you are no hack, and you are a good person, and committed to this Bird's recovery.


You need some help with this to evaluate it in detail, and, for decisions to be made about it...and I would hope you may find that help in the form of a good, practical no nonsense no BS Vet who is willing to be easy on you for the Bill.


Generally, among practical and experienced Veterinarians, if with trusted customers, X-Rays are not bothered with...and, the Pellet is not gone after, and is left to rest where-ever it happens to be, which usually no one knows where it ended up anyway.

If a person wishes to spend several hundred more, than, m-a-y-b-e the Pellet can be gone after, but, maybe not...it all depends on where it ended up, and, if the trauma and insult to the Bird, of getting it out is felt to be worth it.


Generally, Crop perforations in one or both sides, will u-s-u-a-l-l-y mend in time on their own ( if the Bird does not die of incidental infections resulting from it in the mean time) , or, will mend nicely with cleaning and a few sutures, and, then the low grade systemic or secondary infections may subside, and the overall recovery proceed.

If Pellet ended up in the Gizzard, that is a problem.

If Pellet ended up sliding down in the interstitial regions, generally ( 'Generally' ) no one cares, it is left be, and Life goes on, and the wound itself is dealt with according to what Lights and skill the Vet has to bring to it.



Generally...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you for that. I think my vet will be very understanding. She has treated many of my birds and I _think_ she may have said they treat wild birds with no cost to you; or a low cost. I'll explain our situation carefully, and if it doesn't work... I will pay. I can pay a couple hundred for her, but not past $250 or so. I'm sure we will discuss in length what the best course of action is, from here on out. From my experience she is very savvy and "no nonsense", but friendly... She knows me pretty well.

The wound has seemed to "shrink" since I opened up the scab. It is tiny now. I'm thinking it may have to be cleaned fully and then sutured, as you said, but we'll see what she thinks based on its condition...

Fed her a good amount and no leaking whatsoever, it is very good. I palpated the wound and in depth, it is less than a centimeter. I can feel the stiffness of it, so I can tell a bit of how large it is.

Anyway, more information later... I hope to get an appt. tomorrow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


Sounds good.


I hate to see the hole start closing up, which it may wish to do, and fast...or what I mean, is I would like it to stay wide open long enough, for your Vet to be able to make use of it, as need be.

So, yeahhh, if your Vet can see about this to-morrow, that would be good.


Gotta make Hay while the Sun shines with some of these things.


There may be non-passing Feather debris in her Crop, which if so, will cause unending problems.


Have your Vet consider this and look for it with her Endoscope.


No feed now till then...and or no Liquids past right now...you want an empty Crop for the exam...a nice, 100 percent, empty Crop...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What is difficult about a through-wound but blind end Pellet Wound in and through one or both sides of the Crop, is locating or accessing debris which was pulled in, and, possibly left in the Crop, or, left behind the far side or other side of the Crop/Esophagus wall, if both sides were perforated.

Front of Crop usually seems to be one-with the outer Skin, hence, making it hard to look around or outside of it, behind it, beneath it, etc, using an entry wound hole, and, if wishing to locate or remove Feather debris presumed to have been carried in.

Make sure your Vet is hip to this...any debris in there, should be removed.


X-Rays, two of them, can locate the position of the Pellet ( if there is one, ) in the two necessary axis.


Things go from there...


Good luck tomorrow!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If a pellet got into the lumen (the passageway) itself... well, that's about the worst thing that can happen, the reason being that intestinal acids and salts will start carrying dissolved lead into the bloodstream. That would end up having the bird drinking tons of water (polydipsia) and pooping out tons of water (polyuria) and true lead poisoning. If that's not going on then it's unlikely that a pellet is in the GI. 

That wound or abscess will seal itself, no need for any suturing, unless there was an underlying problem. The interesting thing about most underlying problems that cause abscesses is that they don't usually heal if the problem is ongoing. I'd give it a couple more days and just watch it.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't know if you have read this thread, the "victim" wasn't one of my own rescues but I posted in order to file the information where it could be found if necessary :

*Lead Shot in Gizzard*

As far as I remember peanut butter was fed to the pigeon, that coats the led and helps it move through the digestive system.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I read it, Feefo, when I was searching through the site for articles about lead poisoning.

I thought that peanut butter was an excellent idea, for weight gain and to take care of any lead in her system. But how would it be fed via a crop tube? I suppose it would have to be thinned out if that were the case, but then one has to wonder whether it would be as effective.

It's funny - the food I'm feeding right now is incredibly oily. You can see on the surface of it that it shines like oil does. That must be the Puppy booster stuff. In any case, your thread was touching and gave me some hope for this little pigeon.

Also, the wound looks even more closed/tiny now... doing lots of stuff on its own. I'm not really sure what to do.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> But how would it be fed via a crop tube?


I don't know what size your tube is or how chunky your peanut butter is, but if I have to tube feed I pass the food through a very fine sieve, blending the mixture first if necessary. If the mixture needs thinning you could do that with a drop of vegetable oil or mineral oil.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I will buy smooth peanut butter for her. May thin it out with more oil, as you suggested. At this point, I am conflicted. I'd want her seen by a vet if her wound needed cleaning, but since I opened the scab, it has closed off considerably. The lucky/interesting thing is that, at least, part of the other side of the wound, albeit not the middle, can be treated on contact just by feeding antibiotics.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, since you working so closely in conjunction Phil with this guy on getting his GI back on track, might be best to let him weigh in on the peanut butter before giving, I just want to make sure it is not going to set back the progress with the crop in any way.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I thought the same, Karyn. I will see what Phil has to say about it before I do anything. She is digesting great now. I really want to make sure, just in case this pellet is in her system, that we get it out before it starts to leak into her system and give her lead poisoning. That would be far too much for her to handle right now, but of course we need to make sure she is also digesting properly first.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp, to add to the comments Pidgey made about lead poisoning, you may also be seeing some neurological ones like ataxia, lameness and presenting with lethargy with this kind of poisoning, so while this is being looked into, it's good that you are not mentioning these other symptoms, so far.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I will keep a close eye on her to see what happens.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



A determination needs to be made about whether there is a 
'hole' also in the back side of the Crop...and, it's condition or disposition, if there is.


If your Vet is willing to be nice, and reasonable, just a fast look with an Ontoscope to look in there with, then that should be the next move. That is all you need an opinion/evaluation on from your Vet, one simple thing...and, for the Vet to look briefly also, to see if there is any Feather debris in the Crop ( and if there is, to remove it. )


A) If there is a hole or wound in the back side of the Crop...it should be debrided so it also can then heal.

B) If there is a second hole, it would strongly suggest a Pellet had perforated both front and rear of the Crop, and, can be presumed then to have settled somewhere not in the Crop itself, alleviating any Pellet in the GI worries.

C) Things then may proceed from there, having got those aspects settled.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Do you mean the pellet may have exited her crop on the other side and into other organs or something like that? I imagine that would mean surgery to remove the pellet might be necessary. Which, again...

I don't know about there... But an endoscopy of any sort is not only not done here, but costs upwards of $400. I know because I had it done on a pet goose, who consequentially died of undiagnosed heart disease after the procedure. It also requires anesthesia. I don't know what an ontoscope is, but it would be good if she did indeed have these resources. I guess all we can do is see.

Was not able to make an appointment today. Hopefully tomorrow.

Still no food for her? She's digesting so well.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Do you mean the pellet may have exited her crop on the other side and into other organs or something like that?




If it was an Air Rifle Pellet which caused the front 'hole', then, my expectation would be, that the Pellet would have likely gone through the rear side of the Crop or Esophagus also, to end up either in an involved ( lodged in Tissues ) or uninvolved ( free to slide down and settle however conditions allow) position.


If there is no 'second' hole in the rear or sides of the Crop/Esophagus, and if we think it a reasonable possibility that the front hole was from an Air Rifle Pellet, then we may then assume the Pellet had been of a low velocity, and, had merely rebounded off the rear of the Crop/Esophagus Tissues, bruising them maybe, but not perforating them...

...where, for having rebounded, and, for want of anywhere else to go, we pretty well have to guess that the Pellet would have had to fall INSIDE the Crop, and to have gone down into the Crop base area, settled in a fold, lingered there a while, or as may be, and unless it is sitting in the Crop bottom still, we would have to suppose it had then gone into ( and thus likely through ) the Proventriculus, and, into and for all we know lodged in, or, passed through the Gizzard.


Now that I think about it, I see sick Pigeons who poop out whole Seeds sometimes.

I think it is possible for a Pigeon to also pass and poop out a Pellet or BeeBee, but being sick in just the right way as for whole Seed pooping, would probably help.


I believe the next step here with this, is to determing if there is a second hole in the rear or side or where-ever, of the Crop/Esophagus.


An Otoscope... is like what a Doctor uses to look into your Ear.

A Vet or anyone else, may use one to look into a 'hole' such as your Pigeon has, in order in this case, to literally see into the Crop, see the Bottom of the Crop, see the back side, etc., to look for foreign objects, feather debris, or, second 'holes' such as what an Air Rifle Pellet would be expected to have done.

This takes only a few seconds, a couple minutes maybe, is easy, is no big deal, and should involve no additional cost, since it is no more involved than looking into your or my or your Dog's or Cat's Nostril or Ear would be.


Your Pigeon MUST have an 'EMPTY'' Crop for this examination...since you nor the Vet will want liquids sloshing around or concealing details which need to be seen cleanly.
uation would be used to look in THROUGH the "hole" in the front of the Bird's Crop ( and not be used in trying to look down the Bird's Throat/Esophagus ).
The Otoscope in this sit


Again - if this was from an Air Rifle or Air Pistol or CO2 Pistol or .22 Short or .22 BB-Cap ( "et al" ) Pellet/Bullet, the Pellet/Bullet would likely have had, would usually have had, enough velocity to perforate BOTH sides of the Crop...or even more than that in many cases.

And hence, if you want this Bird to ever get well, the possibilty of a 'second' hole, needs to be determined...and examined as best it may using ordinary safe methods...and for the possible 'second' hole - if there is one - to be dealt with however it's details recommend.


As your Pigeon Pal, I advise you kindly to please stop jumping ahead of yourself and borrowing imaginary troubles which are messing up your head on this.


Do one step at a time...logically, in deference to the Pigeons actual observed injury details, as they are, at this point in time...with the intention of testing the 'hypothsis' of her having been Shot.





> I imagine that would mean surgery to remove the pellet might be necessary. Which, again...






One step at a time please...





> I don't know about there... But an endoscopy of any sort is not only not done here, but costs upwards of $400. I know because I had it done on a pet goose, who consequentially died of undiagnosed heart disease after the procedure. It also requires anesthesia. I don't know what an ontoscope is, but it would be good if she did indeed have these resources. I guess all we can do is see.
> 
> Was not able to make an appointment today. Hopefully tomorrow.
> 
> Still no food for her? She's digesting so well.



See above.


Liquid Foods...sceduled in deference to her having an "empty" Crop for when-ever the Exam is to be.


"OTOSCOPE"



http://www.drmomotoscope.com/dr_mom_otoscope_challenge.htm



Not 'Endoscope'...not a 'High Ritual' and high expense, not a trauma for the Bird or your Pocket Book...a simply device for looking into 'holes'.



Relax..!


Do one Step at-a-time.


Patience...


Methodical patience...



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, thank you, Phil, that cleared up a _lot_ for me.
Just in case my vet doesn't bring it up, I will tell her what I've read about it. I hate to appear condescending, especially when talking to vets, but sometimes I really do have information they don't have.

I do have a quick question, though.
There are a lot of kids around here who possess "BB guns", but not pellet guns. Pellet guns are expensive and have lead pellets; BB guns tend to have plastic ones, or in rarer aluminum or another sort of metal that is not lead. Pellet guns are far more specialized; I know, because my brother had one, and I threw a fit at him years ago when I noticed he was aiming for pigeons. I remember we were supposed to wash our hands after touching the pellets, they were so dangerous. They also stained your fingers.

They were, however, quite big. Bigger than I think the hole in her crop would accommodate but then again, you did say they seem to be sometimes half the size of the pellet. Would it be possible for a BB gun's "BB" to perforate the crop wall like this? I know there are some children in our neighborhood who shoot/try to shoot animals. (I try to find them and educate them when possible). In my experience, pellet guns are so powerful that there's no doubt in my mind it would exit through the back of the crop and cause quite severe trauma not only to the crop but to anything behind it. These are guns that can put a huge, gaping hole in metal.

I have _no idea_ why they are sold to people... Especially children.

In any case, I know I get ahead of myself. Bad habits die hard.
I'll keep up the frequent feedings of liquid food and stop them before the appointment, whenever it may be, so that she has a clean and empty crop for the exam.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I once inherited a BB pistol from my grandad that was very powerful--enough to do a lot of damage to a bird. It'd go pretty deep into a pine board. It used a CO2 cylinder and had three power settings.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

So it is possible that she was hit by a BB gun rather than a pellet gun? The question is, did that BB gun have plastic or metal BBs? Even if she was shot by a BB gun, in my experience they never have lead BBs. I have only seen aluminum, which you can imagine would do some fierce damage.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> Okay, thank you, Phil, that cleared up a _lot_ for me.
> Just in case my vet doesn't bring it up, I will tell her what I've read about it. I hate to appear condescending, especially when talking to vets, but sometimes I really do have information they don't have.



Make Notes...keep them simple -

Line Items...1, 2, 3, 4...


Start right off with saying to your Vet "Here are the things I want to discuss with you about this Pigeon"


And, go through the items.


I do this all the time...otherwise I might forget some of what I had intended to ask or discuss.


Your Vet will not mind, and, AND, when the questions are phrased right, you can provide info or insight or other info or details they might not have had or known about, this method allows you to do this in a very Diplomatic and appealing way, which does not cause them an embarassment or concern about their own status or face, since you are 'asking' them about 'Line Item One - Now, IF a Pellet went in 'here', could it also have punched through 'here'?" Etc.


Believe me, very very few Vets are used to these kinds of presentations, let alone, in this kind of detail...they do not see or deal with these kinds of presentations, nor with the complications of care giving.


You have to learn to make your List of "Line Item" questions, and, for the questions to be phrased right for the Vet to accept them with no loss of face to the Vet, should they be somewhat new to, or less than practiced with these matters at hand.





> I do have a quick question, though.
> There are a lot of kids around here who possess "BB guns", but not pellet guns. Pellet guns are expensive and have lead pellets; BB guns tend to have plastic ones, or in rarer aluminum or another sort of metal that is not lead. Pellet guns are far more specialized; I know, because my brother had one, and I threw a fit at him years ago when I noticed he was aiming for pigeons. I remember we were supposed to wash our hands after touching the pellets, they were so dangerous. They also stained your fingers.



Okay...I am with you...




> They were, however, quite big. Bigger than I think the hole in her crop would accommodate but then again, you did say they seem to be sometimes half the size of the pellet.



all of those would be roughly the same size...about .17 to .22 Hundreths of an Inch, or, Calibre.


Differing shapes of Bullet front, will make somewhat differing Holes, and, have somewhat differing abilities for carrying in debris, feathers...


"BB"s being round, and ( were always Copper Plated Steel when I was growing up ) not Lead...would tend to make a small puckered hole, and not carry in feathers, while the shape of the usual Air Rifle Pellets, cut a sort of 'Paper Punch' hole, and carry in lots of Feather material, usually...and are Lead.






> Would it be possible for a BB gun's "BB" to perforate the crop wall like this?



If shot from pretty close range, "Yes"...




> I know there are some children in our neighborhood who shoot/try to shoot animals. (I try to find them and educate them when possible). In my experience, pellet guns are so powerful that there's no doubt in my mind it would exit through the back of the crop and cause quite severe trauma not only to the crop but to anything behind it.



Depends on how many 'pumps' the shooter did, or on other things also, but, yes, generally these have enough power to penetrate a few inches into flesh.


"BB"s proper...I do not know, but I doubt generally more than say 1/8th of an inch into Flesh...IF needing to be fired quite close to do it.





> These are guns that can put a huge, gaping hole in metal.
> 
> I have _no idea_ why they are sold to people... Especially children.
> 
> ...



Could have been a 'BeeBee'...yes...but, looks more like what an air Pellet would do....and what it would look like once a week or two old.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Vasp said:


> So it is possible that she was hit by a BB gun rather than a pellet gun? The question is, did that BB gun have plastic or metal BBs? Even if she was shot by a BB gun, in my experience they never have lead BBs. I have only seen aluminum, which you can imagine would do some fierce damage.



Possible...yes...


BBs are driven by being struck by a Piston or Rod...and because of this they are made of a hard material so as not to deform when being struck.

Pellets or BBs fired from Gas or compressed Air, can be any material.

Light materials would tend to loose velocity more quickly than heavier ones, in these contexts, and would tend to be spurrned by enthusiasts unless maybe for close range indoor use in amuzement for whatever Targets.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Prepare your own list of the following, more or less as this, but corrected as you see fit in case I am getting any of it goofed up...for when you go to the Vet -


Patient History

Keep it short and sweet.

Found x days ago...grounded...static Crop, full of foul liquids...signs of Canker/Trichomona infections and probable Candida...only dabs of yellow urates being made, dehydrated...I suctioned out the Crop, began meds ( list the Meds ) and began oral eletrolytes/rehydration, soon old poops came through then bile...Crop cleared of course...Nutritious liquid diet since...so far, so good...

Pulled small scab from front of Crop x days ago...saw 'hole', suspected Pellet Gun...came here to see you.



Line Item List of questions for the Vet -


I want you to do an Otoscopic exam through 'hole' to see if there is -

A) Any Feather or other debris in the Crop.

B) Any sign of a second or 'exit' hole in the Crop.


Just so you know, I have fed a nutrituous Liquid Diet so far, in deference to the possibilities of -

A) Pellet or other foerign matter obturating in the lower Crop or Gizzard or other passageways, including possibly any remaining inflamitory debris artefacts from the Canker lesion issues, and or inflammation from the Candida, giving those time to clear, and wishing to resolve the Pellet and or second 'hole' question, before feeding 'Powder formula Mix' or graduatng to solid Food - Seeds.



Bing-Bang-Boom, your Vet has just about all they need to feel flattered and happy and no time wasted by one ( "1" ) totally Together Customer, and ready to get onto Business..!




Options once the exam is concluded -


If you wanted, one X-Ray from the side would tell if there is a Steel or Lead Pellet or BeeBee in the Pigeon.


If not, then not.

If so, then, a second X-Ray ( or second and third, ) would allow it to be fairly well located, and, an opinion formed about whether it's location is such as to invite an easy removal...and or how 'easy' easy would be.


Decide from there...



I have quite a few Pigeons here, who as released, recovered Wild Birds, and as members of the Feral Flock whom I see often, have managed well and are Healthy as Horses, carrying old Pellets in them for years now.


Just so you know...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It is possible she was sick, was vulnerable, and then was hit... By either weapon. She is very skinny, it seems like she's been struggling for some time. I've never seen a pigeon this thin, her keel bone is dangerously sharp. You'd think that would happen over a period of time. So, say, she is on the ground, feeling rotten... Some kids come up with their "toy guns", BB or pellet, doesn't matter, and like the idea of shooting the pigeon because it's an easy shot... Sounds pretty typical of the kids, I doubt they'd be capable of shooting from far range. It could have been an adult, though, hell-bent on getting "those nasty pigeons" off of their roof. Who knows?

But from your description, of the pucker vs. paper punch hole, it at least looks more like a wound inflicted by a pellet, rather than a BB. That means lead is probably still a worry. Ah, well, I was just being hopeful.

I will create a list. I tend to think it's better to phrase in questions than in statements with vets. She does know me to be a very informed bird owner. When I come to vets, usually I come to them with a diagnosis already made, and wanting their feedback and help, and I think in a way, that has only helped them. The greatest vets I've seen have finished my sentences before I say them, per se, and echo my thoughts exactly... Or broaden ideas I already had. With the internet, it's not hard to look up symptoms and find information on diagnoses made... Especially with forums like these.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Also, that is very helpful, to write it out like that. I imagine giving a patient history and information about how things have progressed will help immensely.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Short...sweet...effecient..."Bing-Bang-Boom"


Is the best...no 'Narrative' of how you found the Bird...no 'Story Telling'...no speculations of how the Bird came to be grounded. No one cares, does not matter.

Being 'effecient' ( instead of dramatic or pre-ambley ) puts it all onto a higher and more inviting 'level' for the Vet, and is appreciated.

Usually they have to listen to long pre-ambles and narratives and lead ins or other meaningless small talk and on and on, having to deal with the person rather than getting onto the Patient, wasting time, wasting their energy and focus/patience.

Hence, my own method, as outlined, is that of 'Bing-Bang-Boom'...Lol...good 'economy'.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I think you have the right idea. I don't usually go on with story telling because I am not very social. Can be long-winded on here, but not in person. I'll try to make it efficient and cut to the point before anything else, because speculation does not matter here. We have to actually figure out what's going on.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Facts first...

Then...


Let the Vet speculate... 'with' you...since you then, for providing so 'together' a presentation, will be tacitly invited to be working 'with' the Vet, rather than the Vet working for you.

Subtle, but very important for your Bird, and your and your Vet's well being and enjoyment of the occasion.


'Good Mojo'


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I've got an appointment with the vet in an hour, so I will see you after that.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, it was pretty unhelpful/uneventful. I gave her a short history, asked her about otoscopic exams... She looked at the wound and said it was far too small for an otoscope now. Granted, it is the size of a pinhead now. She said it's likely the pellet was regurgitated (as she had indeed regurgitated before I got her) or was unfortunately in the gizzard, and I guess I'll feed peanut butter for that. She said it's possible it's lodged in subcutaneous flesh or muscle but lead poisoning would not be a worry, then. She said the wound doesn't look infected or at all bad but again, it's too small to look into. She didn't seem concerned about the talk of debris at all, just said the antibiotics I'm giving would help. She said she looks disoriented - and when we put her on the ground, she didn't make an attempt to fly, although she did walk - so she thinks she's either weak from illness and injury and lack of food, or could have Newcastle disease although it is less likely.

She told me to offer food and also feed it. Solids. And formula. That getting weight on her and continuing the medications, at this point, is all we can do. She mentioned x-rays but also told us finding the location wouldn't help us much, because it'll either come out with peanut butter and it'll be okay (if it's in the GI tract), or it'll be in the GI tract and require invasive surgery that would be risky and expensive. Or it's gone altogether or it's not hurting her, in the flesh somewhere.

So, I guess that's not exactly what we wanted/expected. She's seen all my birds, has been quite good. The only avian vet here who sees pigeons. But, she thinks the wound will heal on its own and that supportive care is the most important for now.

Well, that's what happened.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


Well...okay, you gave it the 'Good Try' there, and, that is what there was to work with.


It all sounds alright to me, even I would have prefered an Otoscopic exam to settle some questions.

If there is a second 'hole' and it has debris in it, it will take for ever to heal, and or be leaking and obliging low grade chronic infection, maybe abcess, or be a site for Canker/Candida to occupy constantly, opportuning on the condition locally it would provide.


Outer holes ( or inner ones ) can heal up and 'close' fast once debrided, as you have seen now.


Unfortunately, the outer hole healing so fast and closing, eliminated the possibility of the outer hole being used as a window for the Otoscope.


So...from this point onward...

If it was me, I would consider to try feeding formula for a few days, and, see how that goes...adding small amounts of Peanut Butter, small enough for no obturating or clumping in her Crop...then, allowing her to have very small whole Seeds, like Finch Mix or Canary Mix, tiny whole Seeds, nothing larger...tiny Grit of some kind along with it ( if the antibiotic is still being given? if it is compatable with the Grit type).


I'd try that for a week or so, see how that goes.


If all goes well with that, then regular Pigeon Seed mixes, and, on from there.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> She said she looks disoriented - and when we put her on the ground, she didn't make an attempt to fly, although she did walk - so she thinks she's either weak from illness and injury and lack of food, or could have Newcastle disease although it is less likely.


Vasp, those could be symptoms of lead poisoning, which can sometimes look like PMV (two avian vets I work with have said that heavy metal toxicity should be on the differential diagnosis list when birds present with neuro symptoms akin to what we see with PMV). Also, my vet has said that although it's more common for birds to get lead poisoning from ingesting lead, lead anywhere in the body (that would include subcutaneous tissue or muscle) can leach lead and cause lead poisoning. (This has been discussed here before, and you can probably pull up the posts by doing a search.)

Did the vet suggest doing a blood lead level? Otherwise, you could treat her prophylactically with Succimer/DMSA (which according to my vet carries little to no risk).

Jennifer


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I gave her some formula under the vet's suggestion. It is too bad I took off the scab; it closed up very fast, probably within hours of me taking it off. I probably should have brought her in and let the vet take it off herself, but you can never really know.

Although the vet mentioned Paramyxovirus, she has no symptoms aside from not wanting to fly, which in my opinion seems more like weakness... Let us hope it is not early stage PMV.

The vet did not suggest doing blood tests, as it was kind of assumed if it is there and leaking lead, it would either come out with peanut butter or it would require surgery she probably would not have survived.

The pigeon did not, obviously, fly when it was caught, either, and I imagine the wound was quite new when I brought her in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...PPMV can have many faces...some fairly subtle.


She might be one of those PPMV ones who are 'Standers', who just 'stand'...stand in one spot all day, all day all night, and not move an inch...you have to step over them if they are on the floor.


Have her on the floor Vasp, and, gently grasp her Tail from on low, not from above, but, from straight behind her...you crouching down.

Gently grasp her Tail...and tell us what she does.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She definitely does move, she walked across the room and looked up at the table like she wanted to fly at it, and she walked pretty normally. Didn't wobble or anything. I'll do what you described and let you know what happens.

Okay, when I grasped her tail she did pretty much nothing. Tried to take a few steps, and when I let go she tried to make a run for it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any tremors of the Head ? Any odd Head movements of any sort? any odd movements bodily of any sort?


After doing the 'Tail' thing a few times...try this -



Have her stand on your Palm, over the Bed, or over a Carpet...so your Palm if like two feet over the padded surface, her standing on your Palm...


Lower your palm then fairly fast...not real fast, just a little faster say than an average Elevator in a Hotel would do.


Does she flap her Wings as she is lowered?

Do they flap evenly?


Does she flap and also sort of tak off a little, landing? Landing well? then trotting? Landing well then standing? Or..?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

No, definitely no head tremors or odd movements. Just normal standing, a couple steps forward, or attempted steps...

I just did the elevator thing.

I suppose it's a bit odd.

She flaps one wing just slightly, not an actual flap like you'd do to get airborn, just opens it for balance. The other one doesn't really open. She then hopped off my hand and tried to run for it, again.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sounds like she had one non-operational Wing.


This might be "why" she was not Flying when found...or since.


You could gently examine the Wing, examine the underside closely, and feel along it's Bones, to see if there are any signs of swelling or discoloration or another Perforation Wound 'scab' or whatever.


Gently test it's ability to extend if finding no injury or inflamation.

If finding injury or inflamation of any sort, do not test it's extention.

Check her sides also, check her all over, carefully...for any more little 'scabs'.





Clearly, something happened to that Wing...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

That's what my thoughts are. The vet looked at her wings, spread them out and blew the feathers aside to look for more scabs, but didn't find any. It's possible she missed something, even if she was thorough. That one wing actually droops a little bit, as well, but only sometimes.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, there is definitely something wrong with the wing but there are no wounds.

There is a joint, or a bone, on the right wing that is bent or out of place that means that the wing, while it can extend all the way outwards, cannot fold upwards. It can be palpated and feels... like it sticks out. But there is resistance when you try to fold it upwards (as it would be held when they flap), and it looks sort of "curved" at that part of the wing. Hard to explain.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Vasp said:


> That one wing actually droops a little bit, as well, but only sometimes.


Vasp, this sounds just like a hen that had the only broken wing I have had to deal with so far. She just stopped flying one day and there was a slight droop to the wing, she would flap the wing to glide down, but not fly. My hands are used to feeling these guys and how they should feel, and I felt this wing a number of times and could feel no difference between it and the good wing. I decided to take her in to my vets and he felt the wing a number of times as well and said he did "fell a little something" and would like to do an x-ray, an x-ray was done and it revealed she had a broken radius bone, in-line and not displaced. It was taped up and healed perfectly, but the x-ray was key in this diagnosis, as he said even he was not 100% sure there was a break.

Karyn


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

That little bit right there, is the part that I can feel sticking out more than in the other wing. The bone upwards to it seems... oddly shaped, in that the wing has an odd curve to it and thus, resistance when I try to raise it upwards. I don't know if I am making any sense.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you get an X-Ray for this, it could also be done with a wide enough field, to show if there is "yes" or "no" any metal object/Pellet in her Body...


Looked at that way, it's a Two-fer..!


Since the Wing injury or Bone displacement or dislocation or break...is not fresh now, but a week or more old, I would see if your Vet is in a friendly mood to "continue" the last Visit for things she, your Vet "missed".


Phrase it nice, might get away with it.


She owes you one, now...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I have no idea whether or not she'll gouge me big-time; the appointment was $65 with nothing done, very basic exam that I've covered already, just from someone with a degree. She doesn't charge for follow-ups sometimes, so we will see. I think getting an x-ray now would be the best course of action. Yes, it's a two-in-one indeed. I'll see if I can make an appointment some time soon.

Thank you, Phil, for asking me to do those tests with her. Really were eye-opening. 

Just a question; does this mean there is less likelihood of her having neurological issues? It explains her lack of flying, at least. The idea of having PMV, contagious as it is, in my home is a scary thought.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think it is unlikely she has PPMV...or, there has been nothing in any of your descriptions so suggest she has it.


But...it can incubate for a while prior to any symptoms, or even have very light symptoms with no neurologocal component, so we always have to be careful with any new Birds, no matter how healthy they seem when we get them...since we may not see any symptoms for weeks, if indeed for having it, they have any symptoms at all. Some do, some don't.


I think we can now agree, that she has been enduring several issues of illness and injury and infection, and all that went with those, before and since you got her.,,and she has been through a lot, and probably is at least a little worn down from it, if now improving on some fronts.


Anyway, always we should observe basic precautions with any new to us Birds...wash Hands well before touching any other Birds, general hygene things to prevent contageon generally, and allowing a month six-week or so for any new Bird, before deciding to be letting them mingle with other Birds we may have.


I do not think she has 'PPMV'...but no one could be certain untll a few more weeks go by....simply because that is how it is.


I do think we do well to observe habits which will protect our other Birds from any pre-symptomaic but possibly 'shedding' PPMV ones we may get in and be caring for, for Broken Leg, injured Wing, Canker, or anything else.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Indeed, she has been through the mill although it's difficult to say specifically what she has/had.

I suppose, when bringing in any bird, we must possess a special sense of caution to protect our other birds. Even with quarantine, I wonder whether we can ever do enough.

I have heard PMV (and PPMV, of course) can shed for weeks after the birds technically recover from it, so there is one case in which we may see no symptoms, but have a disease on hand.

I'll continue feeding a light hand-feeding formula with some extra little tidbits thrown in, and feed her medications. Perhaps tomorrow I will be able to make another appointment for an x-ray.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Really grind on the Vet, Grind on them with a good firm pressing...nicely, good humor.


Your Vet is in my opinion pretty mediocre and greedy...and she blew the Wing thing, and probably would blow lots of other things.


See if you can find a better Vet.

Not easy to do!



Meanwhile, I think she knows or will realize, she owes you one, for the oversight and blah-zay whole buncha nothing of a Visit you paid for.




Get all you can in one last visit, then call around, call Parrot Rescue people, call call call, see if anyone who knows from Shine-Ola can recommend a good Vet general or a good Avian Vet, either one, you need a Vet who can be a pal, and be sincere and interested, not just another hack fleecing the next sap for a fast $65.00 bucks for nothing, or worse than nothing.

If they do not know much, but are sincere, they should at least be good sports and charge accordingly.


No one ever questions them, everyone is always cowed and into a me-nothing Vet-everything role...they get paid big dough for "nothing" all day every day, 4, 7 16 thousand dollars a week...what a scam, what con artists, with maybe some now and then thing that actually requires a little care intelligence or effort, which usually they screw up anyway, and no one knws the difference...horrid...not as bad and loathsoome as 'people doctors', but plenty bad enough.


Bad for Birds, bad for everyone...


Ohhhh!


Eeeeesh!


Best wishes...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

My vet really isn't all that bad, but nothing like she _could_ be. Believe me, this place... Doesn't have anyone. In all lists of avian vets I've seen, she's the only one listed for our city. There's a great vet up in Saskatoon. Only avian certified vet in Western Canada, or one of two or three, I think. I think, here in Canada, these things... Birds, veterinary care for them, are so rare and "specialty", very exotic and not commonplace at all, that everything normally costs more. I don't think it's fair, but I think my vet is pretty average, in that she just does what the norm is. Charges the norm.

There are also loads of bad human doctors, of course. I don't understand why good doctors and vets are so few and far between...

That said, she did make a mistake, did miss something, so here's hoping she understands that and is a little less demanding with price.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lets hope she feels a little more interested and or wishing to make up for it.



Anyway...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H-6fOc3HE


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Good one, Phil. Good song and very, very true...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I think little Sugar-Plum is prolly going to end up just fine, whatever her vicissitudes passed.


Good Chow, get the Wing maybe clear in your Head and if it needs some stabilizing or alignment help, this can be done with easy to get off later thin Paper Tape, left on for Ohhhh, two weeks I s'pose.


The kind I use is called 'Micropore' and is 99 Cents-a-Roll at any Home Med Supply Store.


See what you can figure out on the Wing.


And...Love...of course...it's good for them.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Joint inflammation due to bacterial infection. This bird was probably just very, very, VERY sick. Probably has worms, too.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Worm stew?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What antibiotics is it on?

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Amoxicillin. I don't have anything else, but it is full-spectrum, I suppose.

I probably can find a wormer, just at our feed store, but it won't necessarily be an ideal one and they'll have those whacky, haphazard doses for large quantities of birds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's something that we ought to think through. First off, I wouldn't dose the bird with a wormer until we hopefully get some weight back. Some wormers can be pretty hard on them. Levamisole would probably be my pick at this point as it also boosts the immune system.

By the way, there isn't a "full-spectrum" antibiotic, only wide-spectrum and narrow. Given the possibility of that joint, I'd rather go with a Clindamycin or even a Doxycycline. Some antibiotics do better for osteomyelitis (bone infection) or joint infections. You'd need to get the Clindamycin from a vet--it usually comes as a liquid suspension.

By the way, I got one once way back that's still in my loft that had and still has an enlarged joint like I imagine you're referring to. When I got him, he was a fledgling who couldn't fly and the joint had ruptured to the point of leaking synovial fluid and some blood. He's never been able to fly much and so mostly stays on the floor. At the time, I treated him with Baytril because that's about all that I had and knew what to do with. We always used to talk about Paratyphoid boils on their wing joints but it turns out that there are far more different infections there that they can get than that. The worst part for us is that there's no way to tell what it is and neither can vets--there's just no test short of completely cutting up the joint and looking everywhere for the cause. Destroying such a joint obviously isn't the best way to go about healing it, so hit-or-miss treatment is infinitely better. You just rotate antibiotics until you find the one that works. I've had birds with swollen joints (the actual bone ends are enlarged) that have responded to the therapy such that joint function was restored and remodeling reduced the size to near normal over a period of months. No one antibiotic is always the answer.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

When I do x-rays, which I sort of do want to do now in case this isn't join inflammation and something else, which is always possible, I can ask for Clindamycin. That is, if it turns out to be joint-related. I don't know too much about antibiotics, to be honest, it merely says "full-spectrum" on the box. I forgot to mention that Tylosin is also in the mix, it's called "Amtyl".

I feel like I've been feeding it for a while, at least 6 days, so I might stop that antibiotic in lieu of perhaps starting Clindamycin.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't stop the one until you have the other in hand. Frankly, it might be a little difficult to get your vet to give you the Clindamycin. I've worked with mine long enough that I can literally just call it in and go pick up a bottle. That's because they trust me and also because they don't charge enough for a pigeon visit to pay their expenses for said visit. That is, they're usually losing money when I walk in with a bird. That's not because I'm cheap--it's because they won't charge enough to rehabbers in general. Most folks have no earthly idea how expensive it is to run such a practice.

Anyhow, the use of Clindamycin for a deal like that is right out of the Big Book (_Avian Medicine: Principles & Application_, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison) so there's plenty of precedent for using it but I STILL had to convince my vet to let me try it on this one particular bird. A vet might not be too keen on using it if they don't know of that particular use for the stuff and/or they don't have it in their dispensary. No way of knowing in your case until you ask, of course.

Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Can you dampen and part the Feathers in a way which would allow a few images, showing the area of the Wing Bone(s) or Joint?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I will do that some time, Phil. Perhaps in the morning.

I wasn't able to make an appointment, but I noticed a few things.

First, the pigeon's urates are white now. Her poops are becoming more normal as she eats formula. Also, her cere is turning white again. It was colorless when I got her. Dark, I suppose, but it is now getting white. Does this mean anything, I wonder?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, it generally means she was really sick and now she's a lot less sick. As dumb as that sounds, it's about all that it actually means.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Are the Urates a normal 'Paste' now? Or, a liquid which is 'white'?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Normal paste.

But now that I look at them, they are still yellow-ish. I think the lighting made them look whiter.

But not nearly as yellow as they were before.

They are, however, surrounded by a green liquid. Any thoughts as to why?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The green pigment in bile that's in the solids will leach out into the liquids in time. Try looking at a very fresh poop sample and see if it's the same way.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They look normal for Formula diet Poops, and Urates of a Pigeon nearly done with Canker, who is on multiple Meds...or, they look 'good' all things considered.



I would like to see you and Pidgey share the kind of details about the Wing, which might permit a determination for distinguishing between a Paratyphoid Swelling, and, a Bone or Joint which has been injured or broken in so to speak mechanical ways.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I would be glad to share details about the wing and such, so as to determine more about what's going on with it. Still trying to get an appointment; it's difficult, and I am busy, but I am determined to make one soon.

On another note, I gave the pigeon a few seeds as per directions given from my vet (and you), just little tiny millet seeds and other small seeds. She ate a lot. A lot more than I thought she would. She really is acting far more normally. I hope the seeds digest fine...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I bet she was happy to see those Seeds presented to her!


Can you examine her Wing from the underside? Where there are not so many heavy Feathers in the way?

One can see the Bones fairly well that way...maybe, hold a bright Flashlight against the upper side...illuminating the 'arm' itself somewhat...have someone help you sindce this would take more than two hands.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I will get to it as soon as I can get someone to help!

She digested the seeds very well, I'm still giving her formula to go along with it as she is _so skinny_, but she could probably self-feed at this point.

Stopped antibiotics because it's been 7 days. Any longer would likely cause problems. She's still on Ronidazole and Nystatin, though.

Here's a poop from today:










I'm pretty sure the green color is just leaked from the fecal matter over time.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


The 'Nystatin' also changes the poops a little I think.


Fine Grit should be alright now...sieving some regular Grit to obtain the smaller pieces even.


Very glad to hear and see her success with the Seeds..!


I know she is happy about this too.



Image of her?


I forgot what she looks like!


Phil
Lv


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

There she is. She seems a lot more energetic.

Her cere is taking on only a little color, but there was none when she first came in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think that may be a pretty young Pigeon there...pre-white Beak-Nubs age-range...


She looks like a sweetie...


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I know, I thought she looked young, too. Her cere is very small.

She sure has a sweet face.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

That dropping doesn't look too bad at all, yes a sweet looking bird.

Karyn


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

Dobato said:


> That dropping doesn't look too bad at all, yes a sweet looking bird.
> 
> Karyn


I was going to say the same thing... very cute bird too!!!


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm sorry I've been absent!

Everyone here was on vacation.

I am going to get someone to hold her for me as I look at the underside of her wing, ASAP. Just dinner time around here and I have been so busy, running around after various birds, and so on and so forth.

The pigeon has been doing well, but I've noticed something of concern: from what I know, she has stopped eating seeds -- she gorged herself the first day. Is it possible that she has stopped eating independently because I stopped giving antibiotics?

My fear is, that means the infection in her wound is causing, and will cause, greater problems. She was on the antibiotics for a week. Is that not enough?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


Dunno...

Feel her Crop...evaluate the day's poops...see if it appears that her Crop is passing and her digestion is functioning alright.

Maybe post an image of some freshest poops for us to see.


What meds is she still on, if any?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I'm sorry I've been absent!
> 
> Everyone here was on vacation.
> 
> ...


It depeneds on the type of the wound and bacteria.... if she/he does not eat, you will have to hand feed.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I finally got someone to help me take wing pictures, but to no avail.

It is impossible to portray what I feel and see through pictures. You really have to _feel_ it. The wing is difficult to move. It will not fold "upwards" like it is supposed to. Even that is difficult to explain.

She did eat today, and did digest, but it may be slow.

After I fed her Nystatin, it seemed to move along better, faster. And she seemed to eat more. I am wondering whether she may have a secondary yeast infection due to the antibiotics. If so, I've obviously got Nystatin. I just notice that often, when a bird is on a week's course of antibiotics, they often start having an overload of yeast in the crop. Not necessarily palpable or noticeable, but it can affect stuff like digestion.

Well, here's a picture of a bit of an odd poop I saw today. I am kind of concerned about what it may mean:










I tried wetting the wing; it was hard to do. You'd have to soak the whole thing to really get a good image of what's going on with the wing as it doesn't seem to be simply in one place. The whole wing feels a bit "bent". Again, difficult to explain. I doubt the pictures will show anything of use...

The good wing, the left wing, can be held upwards without difficulty, like this:










The bad wing gives a sort of resistance when you try to hold it like that. In fact, I very much doubt you could.

This is the bone I feel sticking out a bit more in the bad wing. It was more difficult to find this bone on the other wing, but I'm beginning to wonder whether the wing's position (in that it's awkwardly folded) makes it so, rather than that the bone itself is sticking out more. ...Again, I doubt that makes sense.










The perspective may not be very good, but the top of the wing here, folds. It bends. It is not flat, it is quite circular, but not in a normal way. It is here, I think, that gives resistance when you try to fold the wing upwards.










I'm not quite sure what sort of language one would use to describe any of this, so I'm at a bit of a loss.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, what you're seeing is the stiffness that occurs in an arthritic joint. I've seen a lot of that. I've even got a bird that was brought to me just two or three weeks ago that has started that in the true shoulder, which is just to the side of the base of the crop. You don't actually see the shoulder, of course, but it's there if you know what you're feeling for. 

I've gotten more than a few of those over the years--people find them because they cannot fly but they hold their wings a bit odd. Nothing is broken, it's just that their shoulder starts "setting up" like somebody with a torn rotator cuff that never does any physical therapy or surgery to fix it. As the weeks go by, the entire joint just keeps getting more and more stiff until you finally cannot rotate the wing upward at all. I'm going to try medications for this bird, although she appears absolutely perfectly healthy in every other way. I'm hoping that it's just like an infection in the elbow that can sometimes be healed and work its way back to function. It's a pretty small chance, though, from what I've seen.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

So, the greatest likelihood is that, if this pigeon is to survive, she will not be releasable? That is saddening to hear. I wish I could do something to help her; take even the small chance that it could heal. Perhaps I'll ask my vet about that antibiotic you mentioned, when she gets back. Does it cause her any pain?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

It's interesting to see how her cere is changing daily:


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 



Have you been using the ACV-Water for her drinking Water?


What Meds are still being used?

When was the Nystatin dis-continued?


Poop image from to-day looks normal to me, and, suggests she has been eating mostly 'Peas'.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wing Bones -

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/554images/Avian_wing_anatomy.jpg


Names of Bones including Wing Bones -

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/46/51946-004-D003BC49.gif


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

She is on ACV, yes. She is on Ronidazole and Nystatin - I figured I'd stop Ronidazole at 14 days in, as that was the longest course I've heard of, but of course... I would like to hear your opinion about that.

So no Nystatin has been discontinued. It's a long course of medication, up to 14 days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,


Okay...


I would expect that anything needing the Ronidazole would have been satisfied by now.


Probably likewise for the 'Nystatin' if it has been in use for more than a week say.


ACV-Water could yes or no be continued or stopped now...or merely be used for a few days every other week...let her system catch up.


Pro-Biotics might be nice to do, if you have any.

And, see what shakes.


Anyway, have a look at those Wing Bone illustrations, and see if you can then describe which Bones or Joints using the Bone names...and, determine maybe if a long Bone is 'bent' or is an old break now healed, a dislocated Joint-end, or, as may be.

I know this is hard to do! It is hard for me to do also.


Hellen Keller could probably do it, but, she is not likely to be around for helping us when we need really discerning 'feels' of small Wing Bones and their nuances.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm going to start with Doxycycline on the one that I've got, but an injectable penicillin could work, too. If those don't work, then I'll go on with Clindamycin. Incidentally, one would probably need to work the joint (literally physical therapy) every day and give the bird some kind of pain reliever/anti-inflammatory as well. This all only has a slight theoretical chance of working.

That bird's cere looks like it's a youngster that's still developing one.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

All right, Phil. I will discontinue the Ronidazole, but my worry is that the Nystatin (which, on the bottle I got, said to feed for 14 days - and at a very similar dosage, although for a different bird) may be needed for a few more days to assure that there was no secondary yeast infection after the antibiotics. I've been also giving her probiotics, so hopefully there is nothing too bad going on.

I've been feeling around her wing for a while but it hard to tell precisely _what_ is wrong with it, other than the general feel that the wing is bent. I'll give it another go.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp,



Well, no harm if you wanted to stay with the 'Nystatin' till a full 14 days are up.

Though, prolly not much point giving Pro-Biotics till done with the 'Nystatin' as it would sort of just wipe them out for the most part.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

We are just doing a quick fly by to wish your birds *all the best*, Vasp and Pidgey!

Sending Healing Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi with MR. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone/Rae Charles


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I know I haven't posted here in a _long_ time but to any who wanted to know, the pidgey is doing well. She is a very fiery little pigeon.

I did get her x-rayed, and her wing was not found to have any breaks. We also did not see a lead pellet anywhere whatsoever. Because it was apparently in her crop, and when I found her she had regurgitated fluids on her beak (including blood), we deduce it was very likely regurgitated at some point. It may not have even been lead. Her wing, however, is not okay. It appears that her joint is severely arthritic now. She can't move the wing, and it has only worsened. Her other wing is fine and she has been putting on weight. Her poops are also normal, now. I've still been giving her supplemental formula just to help with weight gain but she is making a lot of progress. She will probably stay with me, and I hope to find her a pigeon friend.

I have three other pigeons with me at the moment, as well. It feels like it has been a year of injured and sick pigeons.

The first pigeon, affectionately named Humphrey, was bitten on the wing by some sort of animal. Was on a course of antibiotics, and the wing obviously was cleaned and wrapped. He merely has a scab left and the flesh looks very nice and pink, and he is very energetic. I imagine he will be releasable very soon because he is already capable of mostly normal flight.

The next pigeon who I found quite recently is what appears to be a young male who was hit by a car -- perhaps he was between the wheels and was simply brushed by one. He was missing almost all the feathers on his wings and on his tail, and had some scraped off his shoulders. Also had an injured foot, and was hopping around on the road in the rain. The foot is completely good now, and most of his feathers are back in. He had a short flight yesterday, and is very adamant about staying away from me -- good signs. He'll be going soon as well.

The third I just was brought today. He appears emaciated and was not attempting to fly. His poops quite resemble those that the pigeon from this thread had when she first came to me, but he is passing fecal matter. The urate is quite stringy, and a little off-white, fecal matter being like green worms. His wings _appear_ quite normal but he doesn't seem to be using either of them... I am afraid that he may have arthritis coming on in his wings as well due to a prolonged infection... Either way, the important thing is that he's on a similar cocktail of meds as the pidgey from his thread was put on, and being given nutritious fluids as well. I do think he is self-feeding and his crop appears to be moving... Might make a thread for him if I have any complications or something.

Anyway in short, I have been very busy! There have been other pigeons and other birds as well. It is almost sad to release them because... Well, they didn't have an easy time of it so far, did they? I worry about them. Pigeons seem to be huge victims... It is them that I find more than any other animal.

I just wanted to let everyone know about this little girl. She's a lot more energetic than she was before. I did mention the medication that can help with arthritic joints but my vet says she didn't think it would help, and that she didn't have it anyway. It is very unfortunate that the poor girl does not have two normal, working wings...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Vasp,

Thanks for the update, although not exactly where you would like her to be, it sounds like she has made good progress, GI wise, back to a more normal state. Please keep us informed on the progress of the new emaciated one, I think it wise that you put him on the same program.

Karyn


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Vasp!!

So glad to hear about your healing pij and certainly wish *all the best* for your others!! 

You certainly have your hands full! Looks like pigeons know you will help them!

Sending _*HEALING THOUGHTS *_with Love and Hugs

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good to hear from you Vasp!


I know...Oye...


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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