# Pigeons can't sit on egg



## FTGDT (Jun 18, 2014)

Hello all,

Pardon me if this has already been talked about, I didn't find it. Also pardon me if this is not the proper spot to post it and feel free to move it.

Here is my issue. I have a loft with 5 pigeons in it, I used to have 6 but I lost one when it flew away...those damn things fly. They were 3 pairs that I bought from a breeder. One pair had already bred before I bought them because I found an egg on the ground, the nest box had been flipped to the ground with the egg, it broke. I have been impatiently waiting everyday to see if I'd have another egg in a nest box (I finally screwed them to the shelves so they don't get flipped again). Today, I found another egg in the loft. Given that the first one was 5-6 days ago, I suspect that this one is 3-4 days old. This egg is on a 2x3 piece of lumber. The spot where it's at, I can't see a pigeon being able to sit on it, There wasn't any pigeon on it when I found it.



















The first picture is my loft, the egg is on the top right side of the door, on the side where the roof is the lowest. The second picture shows the egg on the top of the 2x3. There doesn't seem to have enough headroom to sit on an egg.

I wonder if maybe the pigeon I lost could have been the cock from that pair and the hen abandoned the egg maybe? I'm new to this so I'm not sure what it is. If they don't cover the egg, could it die? My fear is that it will die and if it doesn't, that the chick will fall down and die when it hatches.

Thanks in advance for the help!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hello and welcome to PT.
Nice sweet small coop you got there.

Since the pigeons are new to your coop they will take some time to settle down.
Breeding boxes are best for breeding. I know few guys who would use baskets for breeding though but most keepers,to avoid such problems typically use breeding boxes. Your hens may lay here and there if you don't give the pairs nesting boxes. The pairs since new would need to be given nesting box which would be their private room and it will be a safe spot to raise family. You need to lock your pairs up in their respective boxes for few days with a mesh wire so that they may relate to their nest box and see its location in the loft. Then you can give nesting bowl (that don't flip over) in their pen so that they lay within the bowl.

For now,throw the single egg away. Eggs will hold good for 3-5 days if incubation has not started,after that they're no good. High up there ,there's no place to raise a young.

Thanks for sharing pics.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my advice is: IMO you already have enough pigeons in that small loft. I think what you are trying to do is get some young from them so you can have birds to fly and not lose them. ? but in the mean time you still have prisoners you can't fly taking up room in that small loft and chancing to get out and fly off and get lost. (you can sell them when done with breeding though) IF you find a buyer, so your "stuck" with them till then.

what you need to do is, for one, have enough room for all the pigeons you want to have in the end. 2ft per bird is a loose rule of thumb. Also, the loft you have now is just waiting for more of them to do a flyer out that big door on the side when you go in to tend to them. 

if you only can have that type and size of setup then if I were you, I would sell the breeders and then buy young just weaned homers and settle them to the loft and only have those and use fake eggs for hatch control .

also , Im not sure how much sun you get at that location but pigeons need full sun on them so they can metabolize vitman D. ----" Vitamin D metabolism, Vitamin D is the only vitamin that normally requires a specific type of light - ultraviolet light, which comes from the sun - to convert it into its active form."


also for the landing board into the trap door to the coop/loft, you really need to have a solid board. they won't like to land on wire to go in.


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## FTGDT (Jun 18, 2014)

I just got a call and someone found my pigeon so I will pick it up tomorrow. For the egg, I will throw it out and try to make up a better setup in my loft. I have a landing done for the trap door, i just haven't got to it yet. I will also change the chicken wire for 1/4 inch welded mesh instead to prevent predators from going in. Thanks for all the help, it is much appreciated.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

to calculate space to keep your pigeons healthy and low stress you want 2 ft per bird.

here is how. say a loft is 5ft x 4ft.. 5x4=20 divide 2ft with 20 = 10, no more than 10 birds in a 5x4 coop loft. this is an example. 

you already have 6 to house in your loft so be carefull not to overcrowd, it only leads to stress which can make the birds sick and life not so good in there. and have more poop too.


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## FTGDT (Jun 18, 2014)

My goal is definitely not to overcrowd the coop. I want to have young ones and then, I will either give the old birds back to the breeder or to someone else. I simply want about 7-8 birds to keep that i can release and fly. My loft is 4x4 so I read it should hold 8 birds, doing the math, that's what it comes to.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Just wanted to let ya know FTGDT,the formula of 2 feet is 2 sqare feet of FLOOR space per pigeon. But this is practically impossible(but not for commercial fanciers) for one who keeps many birds


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## FTGDT (Jun 18, 2014)

Jass SamOplay,

Do you mean that my loft could hold more? I still only will be keeping 7-8 birds but I'm just wondering. The 2 sq. ft. Rule brings me to 8 anyway.

Thanks!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

2X2 square feet of floor space isn't impossible. You just need to make a large enough space for them. They need at least that much in order not to feel crowded. When to many birds in a small space there is more stress and fights and birds get sick.
You will be able to find a heavier gauge of hardware cloth in 1/2 inch than 1/4 inch. 
In the pic, the perches are right over the nest area. Not good because other birds will try to perch there also, and birds can poop in the nest. They do like a perch where they can see their nest, but doesn't have to be right over it. Can be across the room. You need to have more perches then you have birds, and enough boxes for every pair. So in a small loft, you really don't have a lot of room for many birds.
As was mentioned, it is better to have a box for each pair, but not necessarily a bowl. An enclosed box with a 2 inch board running across the front will keep the babies in. An enclosed box is easier for the parents to keep others out.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

FTGDT said:


> Jass SamOplay,
> 
> Do you mean that my loft could hold more? I still only will be keeping 7-8 birds but I'm just wondering. The 2 sq. ft. Rule brings me to 8 anyway.
> 
> Thanks!!



Your loft can hold more if you want to cram them in there. Then they will be stressed, and there will be fights for space. Babies will be scalped, and there will be a lot of sickness brought on by all the stress. For birds to be healthy, they need as much space as you can give them. In a very small space, there will also be more dust for them to breath in, which will make them sick.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

FTGDT said:


> Jass SamOplay,
> 
> Do you mean that my loft could hold more? I still only will be keeping 7-8 birds but I'm just wondering. The 2 sq. ft. Rule brings me to 8 anyway.
> 
> Thanks!!


I wanted to say that if we apply 2 square feet space rule then 10 pigeons would need 20 square feet floor space... If one has a whole lot space,materials and money then ofcourse but pigeons really/practically don't need it. They can use communal space. Please don't read me wrong, its always better to give more space if one can afford it.

Like you said you're gonna be letting go of your older birds then it gonna work for you to breed and keep the offsprings. Until young wean your loft can hold them. Then your can sell your old ones.
If you could provide more ventilation then you can house few more SINGLE youngs meant for flying purposes NOT breeding. I can easily keep 12- 15 single youngs for flying if loft's ventilated and aviary's got a little more room.
Different people,different opinions. Nesting bowls are very impoortant for breeding.
-eggs stay in centre for better incubation
-eggs don't accidently tumble away/crack
-prevents making big elaborate nests hence keeps insects/drafts away
-easy to clean than whole nest just pull it out,scrape a little ,turn it upside down and its good
-helps squabs to sit in correct posture hence preventing splay legs.
For me nesting bowls isn't a facility,a necessity instead.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> 2X2 square feet of floor space isn't impossible. You just need to make a large enough space for them. They need at least that much in order not to feel crowded. When to many birds in a small space there is more stress and fights and birds get sick.
> You will be able to find a heavier gauge of hardware cloth in 1/2 inch than 1/4 inch.
> In the pic, the perches are right over the nest area. Not good because other birds will try to perch there also, and birds can poop in the nest. They do like a perch where they can see their nest, but doesn't have to be right over it. Can be across the room. You need to have more perches then you have birds, and enough boxes for every pair. So in a small loft, you really don't have a lot of room for many birds.
> As was mentioned, it is better to have a box for each pair, but not necessarily a bowl. An enclosed box with a 2 inch board running across the front will keep the babies in. An enclosed box is easier for the parents to keep others out.


Good point by Jay3 which I had in mind but forgot to write it for you FTGDT.
When squabs find their feet they run to be fed first than sibling and can fall off out of box. They can get scalped,mercilessly beaten,can loose eyes,beaks and even die


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

People keep higher densities of birds when they have flying kits such as rollers etc because they say it helps them form a stronger bond.

But these are always (as far as I know) same sex single birds who are under strict and regimented training so spend a lot of time outside.

When I was young and had 3 homers as pets I had them in a 2x2ft cage. Opened it every morning before I went to college and closed it every evening when they had all settled in for the night. All they did was sleep there. They treated it as a nest and never even pooped in there, but held it.

Only prob was when it rained or was really windy and I couldn't let them out......then all hell would break loose, and being 2 hens and 1 cock it was even worse. They would fight to no end.

Now I have a 6x4 loft that is 6ft high and with 10 birds in it I have already decided it is enough.

You don't want your birds to have to sit all day on one perch because if they move they'll upset a neighbour - stress

You don't want your birds to hit perches, or each other when moving around the loft. Flying isn't magic, to get to the place they want to go, they need to approach from a certain direction. Some breeds are really agile but when over crowded birds can find they've aimed for a perch but can't get there and have no where to land - injuries + stress

Pigeons are bossy - my loft of males is hillarious to watch because cocks at their happy, free prime can spend all the time in the world strutting their stuff. If they don't have enough space they will get in each others faces and the weak ones will get pushed around - depression + injuries + stress


I'm sure hundreds of people around the world keep pigeons with less than 2sq feet per bird. 
Doesn't mean I would do it.

Also Jass, your argument that it is not feasible unless you are a commercial breeder is a little ridicolous.
You have the amount of birds you can afford to have. Full stop. You don't squeeze the amount of birds you want in the space you have available.

If you keep them at higher densities because of training or other reasons that is your choice.

But to keep them at higher than recommended densities because you don't have space for more room is not a reason, it is an excuse to suit yourself rather than suit your birds.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Not the pigeons!but its us who fixed the standards. Many will make their own to see what fits best for pigeons according to the space,materials and availablity. 
All I wanna say is that pigeons are good at sharing communal spaces and that can work in their favour


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It may be us who fixed the standards, but it is also us who confines the birds in a space of our choosing. If we are going to force them to live in a space we give them, then that space should be large enough for them not to feel crowded, where it is unhealthy. We owe it to them to give them the best that we can. 

It's a known fact that if you pack too many into a small crowded space, that they become stressed and that causes illness, and fights. They do not share a small space well. Pigeons need room and their own territory.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jass SamOplay said:


> Not the pigeons!but its us who fixed the standards. Many will make their own to see what fits best for pigeons according to the space,materials and availablity.
> All I wanna say is that pigeons are good at sharing communal spaces and that can work in their favour


I understand what you mean. I am the first to take the 'rules' and turn the upside down but only when I see a better way to do it for my birds.

2ft sq came from somewhere. Its not a rule someone decided off the top of their head. It came from experience of several people over several generations.

And from personal exp in my own loft (not trained competing birds but pets who fly a few hours) I cannot imagine my birds being happy with an extra 4,5 or 6 birds in their space that is 'meant' for 12, for the simple reason that they would not be able to do the things they do now. Hens maybe would do better than cocks in tight spaces, because they don;t parade.

Pigeons do great in communal spaces and after a bath mine are all right beside each other crammed as they can be in the sunniest patch.

But thats when it is their choice not when it is forced upon them.

To me a happy pigeon is a confident, proud bird, boss of their own space. And overcrowding does not allow the weaker and more timid birds to ever feel that way imo

And a happy pigeon is a healthy pigeon


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ThePigeonGene said:


> I understand what you mean. I am the first to take the 'rules' and turn the upside down but only when I see a better way to do it for my birds.
> 
> 2ft sq came from somewhere. Its not a rule someone decided off the top of their head. It came from experience of several people over several generations.
> 
> ...




I think in my next life, that I want to be one of your pigeons. LOL


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> I think in my next life, that I want to be one of your pigeons. LOL


Hahaha you're more than welcome lol just make sure you behave!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ThePigeonGene said:


> Hahaha you're more than welcome lol just make sure you behave!


Just to be able to live in Malta, and be in your loft, I could try to be good.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

FTGDT said:


> My goal is definitely not to overcrowd the coop. I want to have young ones and then, I will either give the old birds back to the breeder or to someone else. I simply want about 7-8 birds to keep that i can release and fly. My loft is 4x4 so I read it should hold 8 birds, doing the math, that's what it comes to.



That is good, I think instead of formulas and who says this or that and who is right, it comes down to common sense and using your eyeballs. you have 6 and you will have 7 more so that is 13 birds total in a 4x4 that is a bit crowded esp with uneven sexes..which can be a problem in close quarters..more cocks than hens means fighting and stress. selling some will work..but it may take weeks to do that or months..who knows.. IMO I think you need to think larger , not allot but at least were they can nest more privatley(use fake eggs). keeping animals should be the same standards as housing humans.. you don't want a concentration camp of pigeons. but it sounds like you have the right idea... selling prisoner breeders that can't be flown, you may hit a snag.. esp if the breeder has enough and does not want them back.. if this is a loan of birds and you are giving them back then I missed that in your first post.


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## FTGDT (Jun 18, 2014)

SW,
I will have 7-8 total, that's my goal...likely 8 so I have an even number. I will get rid of some older ones as I get young ones that will fly and home.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

FTGDT said:


> SW,
> I will have 7-8 total, that's my goal...likely 8 so I have an even number. I will get rid of some older ones as I get young ones that will fly and home.


I know, I get that part. I was just warning you that it is not always easy to "get rid of" homers that a hobbiest has to keep prisoner.


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