# Photos/Info of Perfect Breed Standard White Homing Pigeons



## kschaef65 (Jul 4, 2011)

I have white homers that have come from 3 different sources - no particular champion bloodlines. I am curious where the best pictures (assuming on the web) are that show what the perfect posture and what is the perfect weight in stature for white homing pigeons. Where are some good photos of what we should be trying to achieve with selective breeding?

Furthermore, I noticed on a website that sells "white homing pigeons for white dove release business" that there are actually a couple different specific breeds of white homers. The quoted information below is what they have on their website. How can I figure out what specific breed my birds might be or most resemble?

THANKS VERY MUCH IN ADVANCE FOR THE ADVICE.

Kevin

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The shopping cart prices are based on the DELBAR lines only. 
Our website correctly reflects the updated pricing on both Janssen Lines and Trenton Lines.

White Delbars- $35.00 (These are an Excellent long distance bird for the money) SOLD OUT FOR 2012

White Mordvedts- $55.00 (Good for all around releasing needs out to 300 + miles) NOT AVAILABLE FOR 2012 

White Trentons- $65.00 (These are a much older line of Birds here in the country, long distance haulers) 

White Bandits- $95.00 (These are mainly a "Sprinter Bird") Good for the short-middle distance releases

White Janssens $65.00 (We have flown these birds for 5 years and they are excellent flyers!!)


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

kschaef65 said:


> I have white homers that have come from 3 different sources - no particular champion bloodlines. I am curious where the best pictures (assuming on the web) are that show what the perfect posture and what is the perfect weight in stature for white homing pigeons. Where are some good photos of what we should be trying to achieve with selective breeding?
> 
> Furthermore, I noticed on a website that sells "white homing pigeons for white dove release business" that there are actually a couple different specific breeds of white homers. The quoted information below is what they have on their website. How can I figure out what specific breed my birds might be or most resemble?
> 
> ...


 I don't really know what the "Perfect" racing pigeon should look like, as it is still a work in progress. But, what I would do, is look for a few examples of the most perfect looking racers you can find regardless of the color. Rather then looking for the least imperfect pigeon which happens to be white. You can always have the pigeon photo air brushed white or something. 

So I will share a picture for you, you will simply have to color a few feathers white, and use your imagination. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=410742&postcount=16


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

It is strains, by the way not breeds. There is no perfect handling pigeon, I have diploma winners whose tails spread like fantails, and ones whose tail goes straight down which many believe to be a sign of a bad back.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

As stated. The above are "strains", not breeds. Breed actually means "pigeons". Not "Delbars" or whatever.

Also, what on earth would you want white pigeons for, in relation to carrying a heavy "payload", as in your other thread?

Just curious.

By the way. As stated also above. There is no such thing as "perfect", when talking about a pigeons structure, stance or anything else. A good all white pigeon used for a white dove release, would be one that does not land on the ground or in a tree, or on a roof, when let out, and comes home in decent time. A good all white pigeon used for racing, would be one that comes home quicker than all the other pigeons in a race. What would anyone care about it being "perfect" in stance, if it performs its functions well?

Again, just curious.


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## sunshineracinglofts (Sep 1, 2011)

a shot in the dark regarding the original posters question. 

Maybe he is reffering to the confirmation of a homing pigeon as it relates to "showing" the bird. As a dog has confirmation when showing in the show ring. Im not familiar with pigeon shows, but im sure there is a "homing pigeon/racing pigeon class", where a judge, judges the bird based on a set of standards the way they judge fancy pigeons. 

Not sure if this if this exists but i assume this is what the poster is asking.


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## sunshineracinglofts (Sep 1, 2011)

i think if you wanted some information on a show based racing homer check these guys out, they selectively breed for shows 

http://www.showracinghomers.com/


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

kschaef65 said:


> ......* I am curious where the best pictures (assuming on the web) are that show what the perfect posture and what is the perfect weight in stature for white homing pigeons. Where are some good photos of what we should be trying to achieve with selective breeding?*......


 Simple, straight forward question, but everyone seems to find it challenging to give you a straight answer...going off the reservation by way of talking about handling, and no such thing, and talking about another breed "Show Racers" and etc, etc. I guess you just went and confused them all. 

All you asked for was some good pictures of what a white well balanced racing pigeon would look like if it had ideal posture and stature. Any serious breeder should have an idea, even if only in his mind, of what the ideal specimen would look like. From some of the answers you have gotten, I am not sure they understand your question. 

If one does not have this mental road map in one's mind, then I suspect that they are at a major disadvantage. Of course, when the only performance requirement is to find home from a wedding or burial which might be 20 or 30 miles away, I suppose the bar has not been set very high, and there may be very few "champs" in the wedding release business.

Again, with white homing pigeons, the bar has not been set very high, which is why I offered the picture of the closest thing to perfect. Breed yourself some white ones that look as good as the picture I offered, and you might be the best breeder of white pigeons that ever was. 

Here is another fine looking pigeon, son of the previous bird I posted, if all his feathers were white, he just might be the best looking white homer that ever was.


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## kschaef65 (Jul 4, 2011)

After keeping pigeons for a year it seems like we have noticed that our midsized and small-midsized birds are the most athletic and best flyers. We have a heavyweight pigeon that doesn't fly very well at all but is great at making babies. So we have stopped letting him reproduce because I doubt if his offspring will become good flyers.

My reason for asking the question about the breed perfect standard is because with chickens they have books that very clearly defined the breed standard – ideal coloring, weight, posture, etc. for a certain breed. A breed is clearly defined like Rhode Island Red or Buff Orpington. So I thought maybe such a definition existed for white homing pigeons but I just hadn't heard about it yet.

I have also read about using "eye signs" to help determine if a pigeon will become a good homer/racer. They say the iris part should be wider and the pupil should be smaller. This is hard to tell on our white pigeons as the iris is not very wide and has little contrast in color compared to the pupil of the eye. Anyone ever have any luck using this to determine good flying ability?

We noticed a few birds in our flock of about 18 seem to stand out when it comes to flying with ease. The usually come home reliably when released several miles away and they seem to enjoy flying when they are let out locally to fly around the house. Those are the ones we are going to allow to breed the next generation.

I have been surprised in what incremental steps you have to take in training them to home. I thought it would be more of a instinct that would take over and the training was more to get them in good physical condition. We have lost a few along the way. Sometimes it puzzles me because a bird will make it home three or four times from a distance of 8 miles away from the Northwest and then on the fifth trip from 6 miles away to the north I'll have 2 out of 8 not come home. I think it may be because of windy conditions. I'll be more careful about that in the future. 

I didn't understand that all of those designations above were "strains". I thought Janssen and Trenton were officially different than a strain.

And to explain the payload question - I was intrigued by an article on Wikipedia about "Pigeon Photography". I was inspired to use my hacked Canon digital point-and-shoot that can take interval pictures with the pigeons. A friend and I are going to create a little harness like the one pictured on Wikipedia. Thanks to the guy who answered that .5 pounds should not be too much for a strong male. We're not going to ask them to fly very far with it. Probably a mile or two from our house and have it snap a picture every 2 seconds. I also have a helmet video camera that I'm going to do the same thing with and capture video.

Thanks for the comments and I hope some of you better understand why I asked the questions.


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## kschaef65 (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't often get to meet other pigeon people because there don't seem to be any in our rural central Illinois area. That's why I asked about pictures or the Champion racing pigeon look.

Thank you SmithFamilyLofts for understanding and addressing my question with a picture. A picture is worth 1000 words, right.

We seem to have a few of our white pigeons that have a nice posture like the one pictured and others that the tail points more downward and others that seem a little large in size. That's the reason I asked the question.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

kschaef65 said:


> I don't often get to meet other pigeon people because there don't seem to be any in our rural central Illinois area. That's why I asked about pictures or the Champion racing pigeon look.
> 
> Thank you SmithFamilyLofts for understanding and addressing my question with a picture. A picture is worth 1000 words, right.
> 
> We seem to have a few of our white pigeons that have a nice posture like the one pictured and others that the tail points more downward and others that seem a little large in size. That's the reason I asked the question.


 You are welcome. 

The "standards" which you were seeking, do exist in the show pigeon world, where they have breed standards much like the chickens you spoke of in earlier post. 

The racing homer is in a category all it's own, where the "standard" is, what the breeders say or thinks it is. If in the breeders mind, a "one piece tail" is important (don't worry if you don't know what it is) then for that breeder, he tries to produce birds with that trait. For some, perhaps like yourself, color is important, for others it might be some thought on what their eye balls look like (don't get me started or a fight might break out  ) or what their wing, throat, feathers, or vent looks or feels like. That and maybe dozens of other things. 

In time, you will develop your own likes and dislikes and thoughts on the subject, and it is possible that over time, your likes and dislikes will affect your selection process, and thus what traits your birds have. If the traits you desire become set into your family of birds, then a whole new strain could develop, and perhaps some day your birds known by your name, might be listed on the cover of Racing Pigeon Digest or some other publication.

The breeder of the birds I shared with you I don't think was focused on any particular "look" like a fancier competing in a pigeon show might, he was breeding for pigeons which when released from some distance, would quickly fly home and go into the loft. In your case, if you only keep and breed from pigeons that have the "look" you like, in time and some number of generations, you should produce more of what you like, and fewer that you dislike. To some degree, I think your task just might be a bit easier then attempting to produce racing champions, as I suspect that some number of traits which one can not see with the eye, is at work...but I digress. 

Good luck and if I come across a good looking white homing pigeon specimen, I will share it with you.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

most of these pics of these "famous" homers ARE photoshoped.. look how smooth the lines are.. and his back is so swooped to thin him out.. but I suppose it is something to go by even if it never can be achived. not sure how important the looks of a pigeon is unless you are showing it and breeding from them.

not sure if you have found pictures of white homers being shown, but If you did IMO they would look something like this one in the link...but it is in the eye of the beholder ..or judge if at a show I would suppose.

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Pigeons/Homers/WhiteHomer.JPEG


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well I can't say what might be done to make these birds looks so good. I guess for the average fancier, myself included, who typically have never seen such quality pigeons "in the hand", would assume the picture must be doctored to make a bird look so darn good. 

All I can say is that I was pretty amazed myself when the Zus Maxx arrived here from Ludo and those who have seen her, think she is everything in her picture and more. Looks aside, she has produced 1st Place Winners in such events as the Winners Cup, so the stuff needed to produce race winners is there. 

Check out the previous post where I shared her photo. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=598657&postcount=14 And I can produce witnesses, as unbelievable as it may seem, she is even more fabulous in the hand as she is in this picture. I think that championship quality often does often have a certain look.

If she was snow white, I am sure she would be just as gorgeous. And so if one wants a picture to compare to what they are producing, the Zus Maxx would also be a good model to go by. And the thing is, not only can quality like this fly, they are pretty as well !


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Show me what would be the "perfect" structure and body build of a man who could win a slam dunk contest in the NBA.

Then look at the smaller guy in this photo below, of Manute Bol and Spud Webb together.

Spud Webb won an NBA slam dunk contest in 1986, at 5'7" tall. He beat out the likes of Dominique Wilkins. One of the greatest dunkers ever in the NBA. Manute Bol is 7'7" tall. He never participated in a slam dunk contest. Despite being in a sport which is based mostly on height.

There is no "perfect" body structure for a racing pigeon. The basket is what determines how good or great a racing pigeon is. The "looks" are just that. Looks. I like a good looking pigeon. I also like a good looking eye in a racing pigeon. But, I'll take an ugly winner everytime, over a pretty boy average racing pigeon. Every time.

I have several racing pigeons that look (in my eyes) like a million bucks. But they race average or less than average. Might as well say that the bird with the best looking eyes is a great racing pigeon. Hogwash, IMO. But some believe it.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Pigeon talk should come up with a "Like" button similar to the one on facebook. If there was a like button, I'd like your post conditionfreak cause I completely agree


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Show me what would be the "perfect" structure and body build of a man who could win a slam dunk contest in the NBA.
> 
> Then look at the smaller guy in this photo below, of Manute Bol and Spud Webb together.
> 
> ...


Well....I can't really disagree with what you are saying, as on any given day, most pigeons in a given race could win, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Depends on loft location and the direction of the wind on any given day. Of course someone who is over 7' feet tall would certainly have a better body structure for basketball then say someone who is under 5' tall. Is the average player in the NBA under 5' tall or is it over 6' ?? And are we talking about the game of basketball or slam dunks ? I think most would agree that NBA players are on average, taller then the average man. So then, physical traits are a factor....hmmm..... 

Please share a picture or two of your #1 and #2 pigeons with the best race records of multiple wins and chances are, they are going to look like winners. Birds which are out of balance might win a race or two, but I don't think that would be the norm. Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary, but it simply has not been my experience. 

Now, having said that, does that mean that every "pretty" bird is gonna be a winner ? Nope, cause you can't look inside their head, can't see the size of their hearts, can't see a lot of stuff that goes into making a winning racer. 

Take a look at a 100 National Winners or birds with numerous wins on that level and study them. Don't know if Mike has a 100, but look at his collection.
http://ganusfamilyloft.com/Breeding-catalog.htm

Now look at your typical rock dove or feral looking pigeon. Look at a fantail or a Tippler. See any differences between these and Mike's racing homers ?

Now look at the original question :

* "I am curious where the best pictures (assuming on the web) are that show what the perfect posture and what is the perfect weight in stature for white homing pigeons. Where are some good photos of what we should be trying to achieve with selective breeding?"*

Now, the "perfect" racing pigeon, of any color, one could argue has not yet been hatched, but certainly some of the racing pigeons on Mike's pages certainly are closer to the ideal, perhaps not "perfect" or not as good as a pigeon from Ludo rolleyes but certainly gives the novice asking the question an idea of what successful pigeons might look like. 

I certainly did not mean to suggest that one can tell a "good" racer based on looks, unless one is entering a racing pigeon into the racing homer category at the Grand National Pigeon Show.


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=598657&postcount=14 

Zus Maxx is a beautiful bird ,
But if that photo of her was tilted any more she would be looking at the sky , Look at her front toes , To me its a pity that champion birds are portrayed this way , as in not in a natural pose . 

just my thoughts ,

goodluck with the bird .


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

dublin boy said:


> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=598657&postcount=14
> 
> Zus Maxx is a beautiful bird ,
> But if that photo of her was tilted any more she would be looking at the sky , Look at her front toes , To me its a pity that champion birds are portrayed this way , as in not in a natural pose .
> ...


 I agree there are good photos and bad photos. Nothing is as good as in person, perhaps the next best thing is video, with the bird moving around. Which for those interested, you can see Zus Maxx on video see : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXwaxt54UE&list=FLItBDRxYNi8L3c6JR9TlS_g&index=4&feature=plcp

Then again, in this video her son, the BC Cock, does not look as good as he does today as I had just got him back from the Winners Cup and placed him in an aviary he was not familiar with, and so he acted a bit skittish. If I retook it today with his strutting and cockiness you would develop a whole different impression, I certainly did, so even video is not perfect.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren, I can not argue pigeons with you. You have more experience and more wins. But I can argue beauty with you. IMO, the beauty in a pigeon is its racing record. Not what it looks like.

To the original question in this thread. Any ole pigeon pic of a decent racing pigeon, would suffice, to answer the original posters original question. There was no need to even start this thread. A simple google seach of a winning racing pigeon would suffice. Especially if one is looking for a good pigeon picture representation for a white racing pigeon. After all. If one is concentrating on only white racing pigeons. Then one is automatically not looking for what is really good. But is instead, looking for color AND racing. That is not what a person intentioned on winning races, should be looking for.

I know there are races allowing only all white racing pigeons. But heck. Any pic on PIPA or on the Ganus Family Loft site, would show (as you pointed out), many good representative racing pigeons.

I guess that was my point in the first place. Find a winning pigeons picture on the internet (there may literally be millions of them on the net), and you have what you need for a white racing pigeon fan, to try and immulate.

That's all I meant really.

Any winning pigeons picture, is beautiful to me. When I get the time, I will post some pics of winners. Including a solid white one. Heck, there are pics on here of Vanilla Ice, the Blue Bomber, and others, that are as perfect AS A RACING PIGEON NEEDS TO BE IN APPEARANCE AND STRUCTURE, to win. No need to look further. Zus Maxx is about as pretty as they come. But so are several birds in my loft. Their records are what need to be examined. Not their structure or appearance.

Of course you don't want birds with one eye, three wings, or a body like a morning dove. But most actual racing pigeons, structurally, are just fine. Especially if their pics are air brushed, or are taken by someone who is good with picture taking.
ie: any old racing pigeon, structurally, is just fine for winning. There are tons of damn good looking pigeons in tons of lofts across the world. That are not winners. Tons.

Go for the records. Not the looks (except the obviously deformed). All I'm sayin'.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Stock Sense = Knowing a Good Bird when you see one.*



conditionfreak said:


> Warren, I can not argue pigeons with you. You have more experience and more wins. But I can argue beauty with you. *IMO, the beauty in a pigeon is its racing record. Not what it looks like.*
> 
> To the original question in this thread. Any ole pigeon pic of a decent racing pigeon, would suffice, to answer the original posters original question. *There was no need to even start this thread. A simple google seach of a winning racing pigeon would suffice. * Especially if one is looking for a good pigeon picture representation for a white racing pigeon. After all. If one is concentrating on only white racing pigeons. Then one is automatically not looking for what is really good. But is instead, looking for color AND racing. That is not what a person intentioned on winning races, should be looking for.
> 
> ...


 I can't say I disagree with anything you have said on this post. I also find the beauty in the performance. I was simply sharing some pictures of some pigeons which had beautiful performances. And that there are, or at least may be, some consistencies with these beautiful performances and the physical characteristics of the racing pigeons which preform such deeds. 

Take a look at pigeons which have had great beautiful race performances and I think you will find them so similar, that even a novice will be able to pick them out at the Grand National Pigeon Show. No one will confuse "Super Crack 69" from any Fantail, Runt, Tippler or Nun. Something sets him apart from all the other pigeons at a show. Now, what exactly is it ?

Now, if we confined ourselves to only racing pigeons, any picture would show what a Homer is, but that really wasn't the question. As he already owns white homers, so he knows what a Homer looks like. I think when he used the term "perfect", he may have been better to ask what the "Ideal" might look like. I don't really think "beauty" and "Ideal" are the same thing. As one fancier might think a Nun or Fantail is more beautiful, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

As one examines a fresh crop of YB's in which to send to special One Loft events, certainly there are differing opinions as to how one might or should do this. Here might be a few. 

#1 Select based on pedigree, in other words this pair produced good before, so I feel lucky.

#2 Base on some outward appearance criteria, you know, stuff you can see. Depending on skill of fancier, perhaps only eliminating deformed or crippled, or otherwise defective. 

#3 Have your wife pick the bird based on how pretty it is, or whatever it is that might catch her eye. 

#4 Random, just draw a band number from a hat. 

#5 Random pick of #1 through #4 above

#6 Any other method not mentioned above 

I'm not saying I have the answer. Or that I would provide it if I did. Just suggesting it might not be by accident, that beautiful performance results, and the birds that cause them, might have similar physical characteristics they may share in common, that can be seen by the eye. 

We very well may have taken the original question a lot more deeper then many may have expected. And you are correct in that judging a book by it's cover, can sometimes be a futile exercise Then again, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, preforms like a duck, then it might just be a duck. 

I typically would employ methods #1 & #2 above to select candidates for special One Loft races, and that is not to say that the cover or looks of a racing pigeon will insure success 100% of the time, but I am suggesting that comparing these physical outward traits of your beautiful race performance winners, to those candidates available to send to such events, might just not be a bad idea. And for the breeder trying to figure out what a balanced well structured pigeon looks like, then study the winners for clues.

That's all I am suggesting and saying, but of course to each his own, the results will tell the story sooner or later. But, I would like to suggest something that may appear radical to some. My wife has gotten much better, in telling the difference between different kinds of birds. It may seem incredible, but once upon a time, when my wife would "look" at a pigeon, she would simply see a "bird". Not a whole lot of difference to her among "birds" as she once tried to "help me out" by attempting to shoo a young Cooper's Hawk into the loft, because she thought it was one of my "birds". Over time, she was able to tell the difference between different bird species and a homing pigeon, but she still has difficulty distinguishing a common feral from a racing homer. She is however able to pick "pretty" ones out of a bunch. 

Of course "beauty" is within the eye of the beholder. And I suggest that just perhaps, many fanciers "see" pigeons they would describe as "damn good looking pigeons", but just as my wife can't tell a Homer from a Feral, there are those who can't see the difference between a champion and just another "good looking" racing homer. They simply have not yet learned to discern the difference. Where as the Master breeder sees the differences almost immediately. 

Rest assured, if I have, or someday do, ascertain those "markers", I sure as all heck am not going to share them with anyone, as such knowledge would of necessity, place one light years ahead of the competition. Which is why such topics as "eye sign" holds out so much allure. Imagine being able to spot those Champs, before they are even champs. Imagine being able to "see" the degree of quality in one's hand. 

Such knowledge would allow a fancier to ID the quality of every bird and could rank his birds starting at #1, #2, #3 etc. No need to keep any below the first few dozen. And as soon as you could find one better then any that are better then that which is already owned, regardless if it came off a barn, you would acquire it and remove some lower number from one's loft. 

I don't know if any of this was of any value to anyone, or if I am simply viewed as some crack pot, rambling on about how great pigeons in addition to great records and beautiful race results, may have some very distinctive things about them. 

Perhaps, someday even the average fancier may be able to genetically test for, what the majority of fanciers can't see today, even if the bird is sitting in the hands.


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