# Ace's Orphans



## ace in the hole

Just thought I would open up a thread for updates from those who have what was to be my race team this year. Here is where you can leave word of their accomplishments and failures. I have high hopes for these little champions of the skies and miss them in many ways.

Without these little feathered freinds in my life there is a void I just can't fill. A few days ago I went fishing under a bridge spanning one of the rivers that feeds the great lake Okeechobee. I didn't catch many fish. I think that was because instead of watching my bobber I was watching the resident pigeons living under the bridge. Don't leave me with this aching in my heart, throw the old boy a bone and keep him posted here.

Are the birds settled? Are they all well? Do you have your favorite???

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Hey Ace

The three pair you sent me are doing great. The younger pair is still not interested in laying. The two older pairs will be hatching next week. They will be flying in ABQ. I might send one with my group I am sending to Grand Junction. I will give the young ones another week and then start trying new things. They look great, just the change I think. Let me know if they raised a round or were sitting. They may just be confused with the cycle. I have another young hen, just now showing interest. May be because I did not have lights and now their internal clock is driving them. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

The six you sent here are doing just fine. I've been trap training them and just this morning, I put the first and second round together, so now the 45 birds I have, have access to the whole front of the loft. 80 perches and 32 nest boxes. They're loving life. 
I'm a little behind on getting the birds out of the loft. Between training OB's (we have our first race this coming week end) and spending time down in NC, I just can't get it all done. I try to go visit my grandmother at least once a week and she's so slow getting in and out of cars, stores, etc........instead of being here when we have nice weather, I'm down there and when it rains......I stay at home...........sort of backwards from the way it should work, but what can ya do? 
Anyway, that's about it for now. I'll be sure to keep ya updated.


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## ace in the hole

Thank you both for the updates.

Randy, 

Yes, the young pair did raise a round and had just layed before I shipped them to you. The two young are combine auction birds up in Michigan. They will be flying a 345 mile auction race for a good flyer named Lee Scholtz (he won the N section auction race last year). 

Renee,

Don't fret non!!
It'll all come together just in time for the season. I have faith in both you and the birds.

Ace


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## Ed

Hi Mark
I have 4 of the 5 you sent me 
When I let all my young birds out for thier first time this weekend one got hit by a car
unfortunately it was one of the ones you sent me 
the rest are doing great though
healthy... eating good.... and loving the sun that finally has come out for a few days in a row here


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## g0ldenb0y55

Ed - I'm sorry to hear that one got hit by a car....


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> Hi Mark
> I have 4 of the 5 you sent me
> When I let all my young birds out for thier first time this weekend one got hit by a car
> unfortunately it was one of the ones you sent me
> the rest are doing great though
> healthy... eating good.... and loving the sun that finally has come out for a few days in a row here


Sorry to hear that! I even hate to ask but I have to....what is the band # of the bird that got hit?

Ace


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## Ed

7708
when all the birds trapped after it happened I went RIGHT in with my two training crates and started gathering birds and writing down numbers that way I knew who it was
I knew it was one of yours before I even did that cause I RAN over to where he got hit and could see the yellow band


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## ace in the hole

Ed,

I do not have my records down here with me but am I right in saying 7708 was the dark check? That was out of long distance stock from Top Gun Loft. Southwing has a DCSPLWF who is the nest mate to that bird.

We all know how it feels to loose birds. Usually it's not to a car but anything can and will happen when you let them out to fly. This was just one of many losses in what we hope is many years of flying for you.

Mark


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## Big T

StoN3d and Ace, I'm sorry for the loss, I know it comes with having birds but it still suxs!!! 

Ace, get settled and the loft biult, you know you need birds in your life.


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## Ed

hmmm
I coulda sworn it was 7708
Ill recheck my records when I get home from work today
Im on my way there now


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## hillfamilyloft

We got babies. Four babies hatched out today the 2nd. They are earmarked to fly with Steve Guzman in Albuquerque with a team of my birds. they will most likely be bonded to fly in the Futurity at the 300 mile station. Steve is a fierce competitor who loves flying young birds. Plans are for these four to go the distance. I will keep you all posted with band numbers and such. The next round will most likely stay with me to test with a small team I will be flying. 

As for the third pair they have not laid yet. The cock is going through a tail molt. My thoughts are the change in Latitude put him in a weird place. He still looks good and is healthy, just not interested in the hen. I am going to be gone this weekend, but when I get back I will try separating them again. I am also going to build a box and put in the top corner where he is perching. Maybe this will get him going. If this does not work, I might put him on a new hen and her on a new cock and see what happens. I may also separate them for a week or so and see if this works. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Hey Randy,

I really hope you can get some young out of that third pair. This is a pairing I am expecting big things from. 

The cock is "Super Schellins" A-28046. He is a cross between an imported Schellins and a H.V.R.. If I had not missed clocking out one week last year this bird would have made Ace pigeon.

The hen KONA-254 is a cross between Warren's hen, York 836 a Janssen going back to the President and the Producer. Her sire is from Ken Munson's phenomenal Houben family. She was in the top 10 % three times last year including 4th place at 325 miles.

That would put these young at:

1/4 Schellins
1/4 H.V.R.
1/4 Janssen
1/4 Houben

Of corse we know no strain is pure, but this is what we have to go by.

I did produce one pair of young from them before shipping them to Randy. Those two are Combine auction birds back in Michigan and will be flying that race at 345 miles. The man fying them won that race last year! 

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Mark 

Shoot me the ped for the Janssen hen. I also have Charlotte my full Janssen who is also off the Producer. Want to see if it is the same producer. I have had great luck with the young birds off of her. 

I would also like to get some young out of the pair. That is my objective when I get back Sunday. 

Randy


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## Guest

just wanted to add that I have two 1/2 ace 1/2 tourniers babys that have been hatched out today  I dont race but cant wait to see what these babys can do  the male of the pair is a male of got from ace and is a kona banded bird


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## Lovebirds

Mark..........I FINALLY got the birds out of the loft today.......man, what an awful year it's been. I'm usually later than I should be getting my YB's out the first time, but I've NEVER been this late......I was SCARED to death.........however, all in all, it went pretty good. Something, I don't know what, spooked the birds and they scattered. I've got 4 missing right now, but none of them are any you sent me. Thank goodness.........got a few sitting in a tree.......but all of yours are inside the loft.........so, all in all, it wasn't a bad day.......they'll stay in tomorrow....its supposed to rain. Hopefully I can get them out again Tuesday.


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## hillfamilyloft

Lovebirds said:


> Randy..........I FINALLY got the birds out of the loft today.......man, what an awful year it's been. I'm usually later than I should be getting my YB's out the first time, but I've NEVER been this late......I was SCARED to death.........however, all in all, it went pretty good. Something, I don't know what, spooked the birds and they scattered. I've got 4 missing right now, but none of them are any you sent me. Thank goodness.........got a few sitting in a tree.......but all of yours are inside the loft.........so, all in all, it wasn't a bad day.......they'll stay in tomorrow....its supposed to rain. Hopefully I can get them out again Tuesday.


Hey Renee

Mark was the one who sent you the birds. Some of them do have my bloodline though. Hope they do well for you. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> Hey Renee
> 
> Mark was the one who sent you the birds. Some of them do have my bloodline though. Hope they do well for you.
> 
> Randy


OH CRAP!! Sorry bout that......I KNEW that of course.......LOL.......senior moment?? Can I use that as my excuse??  I call them "Mark's birds" all the time.........


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## Southwing

Hello, Mark all of the Ybs are doing great. I have been letting them fly around the loft. I try to only let a few out at a time. I did open the door on Saturday and let them all out they were having a blast. They are getting stronger, few more week them may be hitting the sky. 

Later


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## Ed

Hi Mark
sorry I missed you call last night
I didnt see that you called until this morning
Ill try to call you when I get a chance to go outside and get cell phone service lol
I FINALLY got to let the young birds out yesterday
they all steered clear of the cars this time 
wont be able to let them out again today because its supposed to be VERY windy this afternoon 
this weather is just horrible this year


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## Lovebirds

StoN3d said:


> Hi Mark
> sorry I missed you call last night
> I didnt see that you called until this morning
> Ill try to call you when I get a chance to go outside and get cell phone service lol
> I FINALLY got to let the young birds out yesterday
> they all steered clear of the cars this time
> wont be able to let them out again today because its supposed to be VERY windy this afternoon
> this weather is just horrible this year


Funny. Now he won't think I'M crazy!! LOL
I talked to him last night and told him the same thing. It's been VERY hard to get the YB's out this year. I too got all of mine out yesterday for the first time. Had 5 sitting in a tree ALL DAY. Finally one came down and trapped. The other 4 stayed in a tree until it got dark and then took off. Two have come back this morning a couple of times, but then leave again. I told Mark last night that none of the birds acting crazy were his, but one is his. When I counted birds last night, I think one moved while I was counting and I counted it twice. 
I didn't see any hawks yesterday, but there's one out there this morning. Haven't seen it, but I can hear it............


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## whitesnmore

Ace, We have our first YB's hatched today off of the 600 mile Canadian Cock (He's paired with a Visser). What a find!!! I'll keep you updated on how his young do this year. We will be shipping a 700 next OB season and his young are going to be candidates for that race.


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## Lovebirds

Mark

Just wanted to let you know that one of your birds has figured out how to get out of the loft through the drop trap. LOL
I had the settling cage up but didn't have the trap closed. We went to eat breakfast and when we got home, the bird was out in the settling cage.....


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## Ed

now aint that something
you have yourself a harry houdini there 
what can be done to fix that Renee?


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## Lovebirds

StoN3d said:


> now aint that something
> you have yourself a harry houdini there
> what can be done to fix that Renee?


I'm not sure. Probably have to take the screen off of that door and put dowel rods. I'm pretty sure he just climbed up the screen........with dowels, they wouldn't be able to get hold of anything to climb up and out.


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## Ed

good idead


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## hillfamilyloft

Well the nesting platform that I build for the third pair seem to be working. I will let you know when the nest and the eggs come about. Funny how the little things make a difference. I have one pair that is on its third pair, each nest in a different location. 

The band numbers for the four that will be racing follow. They are looking strong and healthy. 

AU FM 09 7731
AU FM 09 7732
AU FM 09 7733
AU FM 09 7734

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Nest is constructed and he is driving her. The other two should be on the next set of eggs soon. The babies are looking great. I think the three pairs should lay within days. The babies should also be old enough to race with the ABQ club. I will let you know. They do not start until end of september. I am also going to contact the Grand Junction club. I will try and find a place to test them. My thoughts are to let them raise this round and foster the next eggs out and then give them a rest. They are looking great. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

We have eggs. All three pair are now on eggs. Your pair that usually has a silver and a check or bar ended up with a silver and a slate with wf. When they get a little bit bigger, I will send you some pics. Interesting colors. The slate is very dark. I am interested to see what he turns out like. 

I think I may be able to race this round with the Albuquerque club also. That would give you 10 birds in their young bird series. Would be a good test for them. 

I also had a pair of mine with two very very light bb with wf. Almost powder looking. When they get older I will take pics for the post. My second round threw a lot of color this year. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Hi all,

Great to hear the feed back on how the birds are doing. I have just arrived back in Florida from two weeks in Georgia with no computer. 

Renee & Ed, 
I know it is importent to have good weather the first several times the birds are out. I have complete faith in both of you and I know you will do everything you need to in order to get these birds ready for this years racing season.

Southwing,
Glad to hear all of the birds are doing good! Keep them going. Can't wait for the races to start!!!! Even though I will not be racing this year it is good to know my birds will.

TipplerBeni,
Hoping to hear from you soon!

Ken & Randy,
It is great to have friends like you in this pigeon racing world!! I would like to thank you both for all you have done for me and my birds. I will be giving you both calls soon to catch up on the latest bird poop.

Ace/ It's Mark, Renee


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## TipplerBeni

Hey hey

Sorry been a while 
Been working like mad.
I got 6 youngsters an I think this is going to be the last round I have way more birds than what i thought i would have by this time . 

I got 6 that are around the same age an they are just alittle past the pin feather stage. couple more weeks an they will be in the loft. cant wait!!!

I got 4 blue bars, 1 bb splash an a red grizzle/saddle back....


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## hillfamilyloft

Well the eggs are laid, but the birds did not understand my system. The Yearlings laid both eggs and are sitting. I put another nest bowl in the box and moved the babies out to a bed of pine needles. When I moved the babies out and put nest bowls in other boxes also the birds still liked the needles and laid the eggs in the middle of the babies. I pulled the eggs and tried to work them back into the bowls. No go. So needless to say both sets of eggs are fostered out. I put a fake egg in the middle of the babies and they just lay on the whole lot. I did not want to take a chance of the babies busing the eggs. I will pull them in about 10 days when it is safe for them to lay when the babies are out of the nest. I will then let them sit the last pair. I still do not want them raising more than two sets of babies. 

As for color of the young birds. Pair one had a bar and a check. Pair two had a silver and a dark check or slate check. I will take a pic before I send them to ABQ.

I will keep you posted. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

TipplerBeni said:


> a red grizzle/saddle back....


I would like to see a pic of this one. Who are the parents to this bird.

I hope to get up your way to visit you and the birds before I head back to Michigan next month.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Well the eggs are laid, but the birds did not understand my system. The Yearlings laid both eggs and are sitting. I put another nest bowl in the box and moved the babies out to a bed of pine needles. When I moved the babies out and put nest bowls in other boxes also the birds still liked the needles and laid the eggs in the middle of the babies. I pulled the eggs and tried to work them back into the bowls. No go. So needless to say both sets of eggs are fostered out. I put a fake egg in the middle of the babies and they just lay on the whole lot. I did not want to take a chance of the babies busing the eggs. I will pull them in about 10 days when it is safe for them to lay when the babies are out of the nest. I will then let them sit the last pair. I still do not want them raising more than two sets of babies.
> 
> I will keep you posted.
> 
> Randy



What! You're telling me you've had them all of this time and still have not got them trained to do whatever you want them to do?   LOL

Ace


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## Ed

Mark I let the YB do a bit of loft flying yesterday
they are all doing GREAT 
they dont fly around much and mostly sit on the roof of the loft but thats ok
I'm in no rush
as long as they are sitting ON the roof of the loft and not lost somewhere Im happy for now


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## hillfamilyloft

ace in the hole said:


> What! You're telling me you've had them all of this time and still have not got them trained to do whatever you want them to do?   LOL
> 
> Ace


They are still working on training me. If they would just choose nest boxes like I planned and laid the eggs in the bowls like I planed all would be well. But no they have other things in mind. I just think they want other pairs raising the babies. I do not want to push them too hard. I will give them a rest and then let them raise another round. My goal is to race 10 and hold 6 back for stock. I may even farm out the next round and separate them so they have a good six months rest, so they will be ready for you next year. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Your birds are special and want special treatment. My thoughts are that they had more room in their boxes than I have in mine. Two of the pair, I had to makeshift platforms for them because they did not like my boxes. They wanted top corners with views. All I can say is that they better win something. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Now for a new dilema. I went to check on your eggs that are being fostered under my imported hen that I thought was too old to lay, and she is now sitting on three eggs. Your two and hers. So now I must foster the fostered eggs. I hope these birds are worth it. Now I need to cross my fingers on the imports egg. She is a daughter of a National Bourges winner against 13K birds. I would like to get a breeder or two off of her. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Now for a new dilema. I went to check on your eggs that are being fostered under my imported hen that I thought was too old to lay, and she is now sitting on three eggs. Your two and hers. So now I must foster the fostered eggs. *I hope these birds are worth it.* Now I need to cross my fingers on the imports egg. She is a daughter of a National Bourges winner against 13K birds. I would like to get a breeder or two off of her.
> 
> Randy


Here in lies the real problem! We don't know for sure if any of them are worth it until they have been trained and raced. I would say, do what you have to do to raise the young from your imported hen. We can get more young from mine later. Do not put my birds before your breeding program!!!

Ace


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## Lovebirds

Mark, since you're on line.........had the birds out this morning. Most trapped but I had a few (9 I think) that didn't want to trap. There's been a hawk after them this morning. I know at least TWO were iyours.........haven't done a head count in a couple of hours, but one just trapped in.
I can see two birds sitting in a tree and one is on the loft, but over on the breeders side of the loft. When I chase it off, it flys to the roof and as soon as I walk away.....right back down to the breeders side it goes. 
Guess if a hawk doesn't get them and they get hungry enough, they'll trap eventually..........


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## ace in the hole

With any luck they will all make it back in safely! I know there are some days when starting the young birds that they could make you pull your hair out, and those hawks sure don't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ace


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## Ed

I had a chance yesterday to let the young birds out.
Im up to 38 young birds atm.
a lot of them are actually flying around quite a bit when I let them out now but I still have a handfull that will only sit on the roof of the loft lol
so far all is going very very well with your young birds you sent me Mark.
Ill get some pics of them so you can see how they have grown up


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> I still have a handfull that will only sit on the roof of the loft


If these birds sitting on the loft are old enough and been out enough to be flying with the rest of them. I would crate them "all" take them accross the yard in the crates. Set the crates release door facing the loft and release them all together. With any luck at all you should see the rest of the birds pull them up with them.

Ace


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## Ed

thanx Mark
I will try that this afternoon when I let them out
do I just crate up the "lazy" ones or crate all of them up and release them all at the same time
or should I release the ones that I know loft fly and release the "lazy" ones from the crate after the rest are up in the air flying


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> thanx Mark
> I will try that this afternoon when I let them out
> do I just crate up the "lazy" ones or crate all of them up and release them all at the same time
> or should I release the ones that I know loft fly and release the "lazy" ones from the crate after the rest are up in the air flying


By releasing them away from the loft it forces them to at least go into the air. Not just from the trap to the roof! By releasing them "ALL" away from the loft ( 40 or 50 feet ) The other birds will help pull the lazy ones up into the sky above the loft instead of just to the roof of the loft.

Ace


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## Ed

got ya
Ill be crating them up as soon as I get home and take them across the street and release them that way
thanx for the tip Mark


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> got ya
> Ill be crating them up as soon as I get home and take them *across the street and release them *that way
> thanx for the tip Mark


Just want to make sure if you are releasing across or near the street that there are not any overhead wires. Overhead wires are no more your pigeons freind than the hawk is.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Just want to make sure if you are releasing across or near the street that there are not any overhead wires. Overhead wires are no more your pigeons freind than the hawk is.
> 
> Ace


What if they've never been in a crate before? I don't know if they have or not.........just asking.............I always put mine in a crate for an hour or so and then release them back inside the loft.......just so that they don't get freaked out and realize that being confined in a crate isn't a "bad" thing..........


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## Ed

ace in the hole said:


> Just want to make sure if you are releasing across or near the street that there are not any overhead wires. Overhead wires are no more your pigeons freind than the hawk is.
> 
> Ace


I plan on releasing them from my neighbors yard
hes been wanting to see my birds for awhile now
he doesnt have any power lines in his front yard


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> What if they've never been in a crate before? I don't know if they have or not.........just asking.............I always put mine in a crate for an hour or so and then release them back inside the loft.......just so that they don't get freaked out and realize that being confined in a crate isn't a "bad" thing..........



Hi Renee,

I have never done that and have never had a problem. When they come out of the crate they will see they are still in thier own yard. As we all know even though we are all looking for the same end resault there are many, many ways to get there.

Ace


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> I plan on releasing them from my neighbors yard
> hes been wanting to see my birds for awhile now
> he doesnt have any power lines in his front yard


Let us all know how it works out. I would predict 1/2 to 3/4 of the lazy birds will hit the sky with the other birds for at least a short time anyway.

Ace


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## Ed

Man that worked out perfectly!!!!
Instead of the usual 12 that hang around on the loft I only had 5 that didnt want to fly today.
I will do it again tomorrow if the weather is nice
here are some updated pics of the young birds you sent me Mark.


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## ace in the hole

Look for the first and last birds pictured to come in for you this year. The two cousins pictured in the center are long distance birds and will come in better for you in a year or two. Although the dark checks mother did have a top 10% and a few top 20%s last year as a young bird. For this year....... I would put my money on the bird in the first pic! 

As for releasing your birds from the crate. Yes, I would release them all from the same spot today and then start moving back 20 to 40 feet at a time until they are all in the air. If in a week you do not have them all up and flying give me a call and I will go over a few options with you.


Ace


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## Ed

thanx a million mark!!
your the best


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> With any luck they will all make it back in safely! I know there are some days when starting the young birds that they could make you pull your hair out, and those hawks sure don't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ace


When I did a head a final head count last night.......had 2 birds missing and one was one of yours. It came in sometime today however while I was gone. So, they're all here.


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> When I did a head a final head count last night.......had 2 birds missing and one was one of yours. It came in sometime today however while I was gone. So, they're all here.


That is all six sent to you are all still there?


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> That is all six sent to you are all still there?


That's a big 10-4!! LOL

It was actually funny........I had taken 4 birds (OB's) down to NC with me this morning. I released them at 10:00 from about 40 miles........Everett said about 10:30 this bird comes zooming over the top of the house, and he thought.......WOW, THAT was FAST!!!......but it was the youngster.......not the ones I took with me..........


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## hillfamilyloft

The babies will be going south Saturday to their new home. They will be 30 days old. The one pair had a silver and a slate bar Wf. Interesting mix. They have found the floor of the loft and are pecking around at grains. 

The status:
Kona Pair on Eggs

Silver Pair Just laid again and are on eggs. Also have a pair of eggs fostered out. They would not sit on wooden eggs. The first eggs were in the midst of the babies and I was afraid the would be distroyed so I fostered them out. 

Other pair soon to lay, also have a set of eggs fostered out. They also would not lay in a bowl and would not sit wooden eggs. They have taken to a nest bowl in another box though and are building a nest. 

I do not know what it is with those Yankey birds, but they will not sit on wooden eggs. 

We should be able to fly the fostered birds and the Kona birds in ABQ. I may try and find a few different lofts to fly the birds. With the understanding the birds will come back. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> The babies will be going south Saturday to their new home. They will be 30 days old. The one pair had a silver and a slate bar Wf. Interesting mix. They have found the floor of the loft and are pecking around at grains.
> 
> The status:
> Kona Pair on Eggs
> 
> Silver Pair Just laid again and are on eggs. Also have a pair of eggs fostered out. They would not sit on wooden eggs. The first eggs were in the midst of the babies and I was afraid the would be distroyed so I fostered them out.
> 
> Other pair soon to lay, also have a set of eggs fostered out. They also would not lay in a bowl and would not sit wooden eggs. They have taken to a nest bowl in another box though and are building a nest.
> 
> I do not know what it is with those Yankey birds, but they will not sit on wooden eggs.
> 
> We should be able to fly the fostered birds and the Kona birds in ABQ. I may try and find a few different lofts to fly the birds. With the understanding the birds will come back.
> 
> Randy


Hi Randy,

If you can I would like to see them all in the same loft flying against each other. I like what you put in that email to me that this team will consist of like 10 of his best, 10 of your best, 15 of Vern's best and 10 of my best. This will be a great test for them and would be looked at by me as a one loft race. I will learn more about them this way than if they were in several lofts.

It sounds like they are getting you trained. lol Could you post a pic of that slate bar. It has always been one silver bar and one blue bar from that pair. The silvers should be the cocks.

Ace


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## Ed

hillfamilyloft said:


> The babies will be going south Saturday to their new home. They will be 30 days old. The one pair had a silver and a slate bar Wf. Interesting mix. They have found the floor of the loft and are pecking around at grains.
> 
> The status:
> Kona Pair on Eggs
> 
> Silver Pair Just laid again and are on eggs. Also have a pair of eggs fostered out. They would not sit on wooden eggs. The first eggs were in the midst of the babies and I was afraid the would be distroyed so I fostered them out.
> 
> Other pair soon to lay, also have a set of eggs fostered out. They also would not lay in a bowl and would not sit wooden eggs. They have taken to a nest bowl in another box though and are building a nest.
> 
> I do not know what it is with those Yankey birds, but they will not sit on wooden eggs.
> We should be able to fly the fostered birds and the Kona birds in ABQ. I may try and find a few different lofts to fly the birds. With the understanding the birds will come back.
> 
> Randy


ROFL!!!!!!


----------



## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> ROFL!!!!!!



*YOU SAID WHAT!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Ed

ROFL = Rolling on the floor laughing 
the Yankey birds comment is FUNNY!!!!!


----------



## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> ROFL = Rolling on the floor laughing
> the Yankey birds comment is FUNNY!!!!!


OK, I never knew that one. I just LMAO!!!!!


----------



## hillfamilyloft

My only thought is that if I split them up they will get more flying time. Their bird limits are pretty low. I know a good flier that needs birds to fly. The fancier Steve that is flying our birds will start with about 40. With a 20 bird limit them may not get in every race. The other flyer would fly them every week. Just my thinking on the matter. I will not put them anywhere that they will not have good birds to fly against other than the club birds. It is more a bird limit way of thinking than any other. They are thinking about a B race sprint series or some special races. I will try and do what is best to get them all flown. 

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> My only thought is that if I split them up they will get more flying time. Their bird limits are pretty low. I know a good flier that needs birds to fly. The fancier Steve that is flying our birds will start with about 40. With a 20 bird limit them may not get in every race. The other flyer would fly them every week. Just my thinking on the matter. I will not put them anywhere that they will not have good birds to fly against other than the club birds. It is more a bird limit way of thinking than any other. They are thinking about a B race sprint series or some special races. I will try and do what is best to get them all flown.
> 
> Randy



Randy,

I'll try calling you tomorrow night.

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Some Pics of the ACE babies. They will be heading out Saturday to fly with Steve Guzman of ABQ.


----------



## bbcdon

Very nice looking birds!


----------



## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Some Pics of the ACE babies. They will be heading out Saturday to fly with Steve Guzman of ABQ.


*Can you say Fire In The Hole!!! *I love what I see! The dark blue bar with the white flecks behind her eyes looks like her sister FM 5424. Last year she flew four races in a row in the top 5% of the club and three of those she was on the drop with the winner!!!!!!!

Hey Ken, The two on the bottom are from 801 Houben & YORK 836!

Ace


----------



## whitesnmore

Nice lookin birds!! You can definately see the attitude in them...BETTER NOT TOUCH ME MAN. Cant wait to see how they do. Please keep us updated.
Ken


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Those two on the right kick my but everytime I get even near to them. I am anxious to see what perch they try and grab. 

Randy


----------



## hillfamilyloft

New chapter in the Yankee bird conspiracy. These Birds of Aces are something. 

Chapter 1
The story. He loaned me a few pair of birds to breed for him some babies. One pair in particular is trying to take over the loft. After the first round of babies when they were about 12 days in the nest they decided to lay the second round of eggs. Nothing out of the ordinary. They laid the eggs in the middle of the babies so I fostered the eggs out and put wooden eggs under her. The wooden eggs were kicked out of the nest, I put them back, kicked out, back, kicked out. I gave up.

Chapter 2
So needless to say 10 days later more eggs. The first was laid a day before the babies were out of the nest. I put the babies on the floor so they would not kick the eggs out of the nest. She laid the second and was fine. Now she had two babies, two eggs fostered and sitting on two eggs. 

Chapter 3
Thinking that I did not want to burn the hen out, these two eggs were going to be her last. But she has other ideas. Yesterday I went to check on her. Eight days after the clutch of eggs, low and behold, she is sitting on three eggs. She is daring me to foster more eggs out. Thus her conspiracy to over run my loft with her bloodline. Oh those Yankee birds. 

P.S. Must be the rocky mountain water.


----------



## whitesnmore

Randy, Its not so much the birds as it is Ace. He is determined to take over all the lofts in the U S one loft at a time and you have started his diabolical plan


----------



## hillfamilyloft

He must have fed them oysters before he sent them my way. 

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

whitesnmore said:


> Randy, Its not so much the birds as it is Ace. He is determined to take over all the lofts in the U S one loft at a time and you have started his diabolical plan


 
This may foil my plans! I didn't think anyone would ever figure it out!!!

But you just wait untill Ken's Hawk/Pigeon crosses start eating the competition!!! 

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

Randy,

Foster the second set if you'd like. I told you I wanted young from these three pair to cross with each other but what ever your doing please stop! I would like for those hens to have a few eggs left in them *WHEN I GET EM BACK!!!!!* And, Hey.... I don't think the drugs you're giving them have even been approved yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

I am going to candle the first set today and see if they are fertile. I do have a pair that just laid that I can foster the eggs under. I do not know what that hen is thinking. I am not treating her any different than my own birds. I will keep you posted. 

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> I am going to candle the first set today and see if they are fertile. I do have a pair that just laid that I can foster the eggs under. I do not know what that hen is thinking. I am not treating her any different than my own birds. I will keep you posted.
> 
> Randy



I know your not, just saw my chance to give ya a hard time!


Ace


----------



## Big T

Ace,
You sound like a daddy who's kids are off to college. You need to build your loft and fly. You know you miss it!!!

Tony


----------



## ace in the hole

Big T said:


> Ace,
> You sound like a daddy who's kids are off to college. You need to build your loft and fly. You know you miss it!!!
> 
> Tony


Hi Tony,

We all know you are right! I will be heading back to Michigan this month for the summer and then back to Florida this fall (FOR GOOD). My racing loft is a 30 ft. camper trailer (IT WAS BUILT WITH THIS TRIP IN MIND). I will be filling it with all of the pigeon stuff and some of mine when I head back down. The birds that are on loan in Michigan will come with me and the others across the country will be shipped here after the loft is set up and ready for next years breeding season. You bet I miss it and I also have a plan!!!

Ace


----------



## Big T

Good for you!!! It is nice to see you have friends that care here also.

Tony


----------



## ace in the hole

Big T said:


> Good for you!!! It is nice to see you have friends that care here also.
> 
> Tony


Thank you Tony, 

I hope you will check back (ON THIS THREAD) as the young bird racing season gets under way to see how my kids I sent off to college are doing. 

Mark/Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

these birds are typical of college students. All they are doing is fornicating.


----------



## Big T

I will be yours and Warren's wife's biggest fan.
(But I am losing weight)

Tony


----------



## hillfamilyloft

ace in the hole said:


> Thank you Tony,
> 
> I hope you will check back (ON THIS THREAD) as the young bird racing season gets under way to see how my kids I sent off to college are doing.
> 
> Mark/Ace


I sent the kids off Monday. They are in their new dorm in ABQ. School will be hard, so we will see how they do.

Randy


----------



## g0ldenb0y55

hillfamilyloft said:


> these birds are typical of college students. All they are doing is fornicating.


....ROFL!!!


----------



## hillfamilyloft

We have babies. The young pair has two newbees. I also noticed some piping out also. One set of eggs I am a little concearned about wheather or when they will hatch, but I held them in the house for a few days. We will see if they hatch in a day or two. They all look good sitting on eggs and babies. 

Randy


----------



## whitesnmore

Mark, Got the first two squeekers out of the Canadian Cock. Nice looking Yb's and we banded one with a futurity band. Will let you know if we have another "miracle out of the sky"


----------



## hillfamilyloft

The fostered babies out of the Silver hen hatched today. That makes fore ACE birds in the nest. 

Randy


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Well I do not think the two fostered birds for the Producer pair are going to hatch. They are a few days overdue. I messed around with the eggs too much trying to get the parents to sit on them. There next set is scheduled to hatch soon. The four babies look good and I will get them on the Albuquerque team. All is well.

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

Thanks for the updates guys.

Ken, I can't wait to see what these kid will do. I just hope they don't end up in Canada!! LOL

Randy, It sounds like you have done and are doing everything posable to get young out of these pairs for me, Thank You.

As for the Houben/Janssen (Producer) cross, we can't save every egg! Back in Michigan I have the Combine race sec. flying three young out of them in the north section and a top flyer in the south section flying two that are banded for the combine auction race. With the two you just sent out that makes seven of their young flying this year. That should tell me what I need to know. The good thing for me is they were all placed with the understanding that I can get back any of them I want at the end of the season. With any luck at all this should give me the birds I need for the cross I have in mind!!!!!

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Here is where we stand at present. 

Silver pair have two fostered:
Band Numbers:7793, 7794
Silver pair hatched today two babies. Also sitting on third egg it laid 7 days after. I will foster that baby if it hatches. Yes she laid three eggs. This is the conspiracy that I am talking about. 
Should be finished. I may foster out the next eggs and separate them or put them on wooden eggs. I am sure she will lay before these babies are out of the nest. 

Young pair two in nest:
Band Numbers:7791, 7792
I will let them lay again and raise or foster the babies.

Producer pairs babies are piping out and should hatch tonight or Monday. I will let then lay again and foster out the eggs then seperate them. 

That should make 16 or so birds. I may be able to race those that hatched out yesterday and today. That would put them ready to send out June 15th. I am working on someone to fly them. Albuquerque's season does not start until late September. Otherwise I will keep them here and fly them out to about 150miles. 

I will let you know the colors of the babies when I find out. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Not much to report here.....except the RAIN........AHHH!!!......we did have two days last week that were pretty, so the birds were out those two days. That was Tues. & Wed.....THURS through today is has rained and rained.....suppose to be pretty the next 3 or 4 days, so will try to get the birds out some this week. All six of your are still here...........got to try to get the band number and a picture of your giant bird.......I was watching it this morning while they were eating and he's huge...........


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Funny that my two largest birds Charlie and Big Bertha both got loose and went awol. But Every young bird off of them that I have bred has produced winners. They bring the big birds to my loft. The Silver hen that I am babysitting for ACE is now the largest hen in my loft. My thoughts are that big bird has lineage form these birds. Peanut flying for Fastpitch is off a son of Charlie and a granddaughter of Big Bertha appropriately named "Great Big Bertha"

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Finally got off my lazy duff and took some pictures. The birds don't look real good right now. I turned my lights off about 2 weeks ago and they are molting pretty good now. 

This is the big bird (9197) and another one that you sent, (9194)










9197 Again









And I don't know what numbers these other pictures are of.


----------



## Lovebirds

I don't know if I got pictures of all 6. They were moving around and I was trying to find them. 5 got purple snap bands and one got a pink snap band, so it's hard to distinguish between the 5, except for the big one of course.


----------



## Ed

they look great Renee 
I'll try to get some pics of the ones he sent me tonight when I go out to the loft.
They have been loft flying twice a day now for a couple of days.
Its been working out great.
They loft fly for about 30 minutes in the AM and for about an hour in the PM.
only have three lasy ones out of all the young birds lol.
When I let them all out those three fly around for about 5 minutes then go land on the roof of an Apt. complex that is across the road from me.
Lazy pigeons LOL.
They will be in for a big surprise when they go on their first road toss heh.


----------



## Ed

oh yeah I alsmot forgot.
Speaking of giant birds... Mark sent me one too LOL
7712
he's HUGE compaired to my other birds


----------



## Lovebirds

StoN3d said:


> oh yeah I alsmot forgot.
> Speaking of giant birds... Mark sent me one too LOL
> 7712
> he's HUGE compaired to my other birds


My big one is so much bigger than the others he sent me. I've got a couple of big young birds, but this big one really stands out. Probably because my other bigger birds are colored or BC's.......
I've had my birds out the last three days. I may go to letting them out twice a day soon.......now that the lights are out, it's not a big deal.
I want to give the big bird a name, but I'm scared too.........something will happen to it if I do that........LOL


----------



## Ed

yeah I know exactly what you mean LOL
I havent named a pigeon since I lost Squabzilla


----------



## Ed

here are some updated pics of the young birds


----------



## ace in the hole

Hi all,

Thanks for the updates. I am back in Michigan now and back on my computer.  As far as I know only one of the 17 birds I sent out to P.T. members has been lost. Keep up the good work!!


Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Just an update. The silver pairs last clutch I think has two silver birds. The next to last had a silver and a BB. The young pair had a check and a dark check. I will check the racing schedule and maybe get the last four in the races next year. Steve has a full house so I might see if Joey will fly them for you. He is on the short end but does pretty good with them. He is also flying much of my blood. The President pair is getting ready to lay, so I may foster those eggs out and put them on wood. The silver pair is about a week out I may do the same to them. I may run out of fosters or the timing may be off. They will then be done for the year. The young pair will be hatching in about a week and their present babies are about weened. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Here's some pics of your latest "orphans"....LOL


----------



## ace in the hole

Thanks for the pics Renee. Do you just have these four left now? Have they been down the road much yet? If so how far have you had them out?

I think I know who two of them are from by thier looks and build. The one in the third pic down looks in real good health!! I would say "he" is at least 50% Hillfamilyloft's stock. 

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

Hmm, I wonder how the other orphens are doing?????

Anything to report guys.

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

What is going on at Hillfamilyloft is all good. I just sent 8 babies off to fly in Albuquerque. I sent the later four also. I will post the band number for all of them. Steve lost a few in training and I do not know which birds they were. I might just wait until race season starts and get an inventory. I am sure we will loose a few. The team is about forty birds. I will get you details as they come in. 

The only negative that I had is that I lost both eggs from the Kona pair from the babies knocking them out of the nest to the floor. They are currently on another set and the babies have been shipped off. I will let them hatch out. That will then leave a pair from each with me to fly and keep back. 

I will be separating the birds as soon as the babies are weaned. The Silver pair are on wooden eggs and the eggs farmed out. I will separate them as soon as the rest are done.


----------



## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> What is going on at Hillfamilyloft is all good. I just sent 8 babies off to fly in Albuquerque. I sent the later four also. I will post the band number for all of them. Steve lost a few in training and I do not know which birds they were. I might just wait until race season starts and get an inventory. I am sure we will loose a few. The team is about forty birds. I will get you details as they come in.
> 
> The only negative that I had is that I lost both eggs from the Kona pair from the babies knocking them out of the nest to the floor. They are currently on another set and the babies have been shipped off. I will let them hatch out. That will then leave a pair from each with me to fly and keep back.
> 
> I will be separating the birds as soon as the babies are weaned. The Silver pair are on wooden eggs and the eggs farmed out. I will separate them as soon as the rest are done.


Hey Randy,
Other than that pair of eggs it does all sound good. You call that pair the Kona pair but the cock is the Super Schellins that would have made ace pigeon as a young bird if I had not messed up with my clock and clocking out.
I am glad you are going to get another set of young from them to fly yourself.

Thanks for the update,

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

It makes me alter from plans a bit, but we need another set of youngsters off of them. Still will give them 3 or 4 months of rest. I call them the Kona pair because of that goofy band you put on. I am better with names than numbers. I got a dark and a blue check out of them last time. 

I am in the process of building the loft that they will fly out of right now. I have about another week before I need to start weaning the youngsters. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Thanks for the pics Renee. Do you just have these four left now? Have they been down the road much yet? If so how far have you had them out?
> 
> I think I know who two of them are from by thier looks and build. The one in the third pic down looks in real good health!! I would say "he" is at least 50% Hillfamilyloft's stock.
> 
> Ace


No, all six are here. That's just the only ones I got pics of. I couldn't tell which BB's the other were because they were sitting on perches and I couldn't see their legs. I haven't lost any. 
And no, they haven't been down the road yet.


----------



## Lovebirds

Had the birds out this morning. All flew for about 30 minutes....they've been locked up for about 4 days because of rain.....some fell out and landed on the roof. Still had about 20 flying and they stayed up for about 50 minutes and started dropping out one or two at a time. After an hour, all but one bird had landed. That one bird flew around here, dipping and diving and just having a blast all by its self for another 20 minutes. We could see it was a BB, but had no idea WHICH BB is was. When it FINALLY landed, it was 9194.


----------



## Ed

The young birds are doing great here.
So far I've been able to get them 15 miles down he road.
Tomorrow if the weather looks good we will do 20 miles.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Had the birds out this morning. All flew for about 30 minutes....they've been locked up for about 4 days because of rain.....some fell out and landed on the roof. Still had about 20 flying and they stayed up for about 50 minutes and started dropping out one or two at a time. After an hour, all but one bird had landed. That one bird flew around here, dipping and diving and just having a blast all by its self for another 20 minutes. We could see it was a BB, but had no idea WHICH BB is was. When it FINALLY landed, it was 9194.


Wow, This is the one I told you was a little older than the others and I was afraid you might loose her in trying to settle "her". She is the only young bird raised this year from a nest mate brother sister pairing. Her mother took a 2nd & a 3rd place last year and her father was stocked after four races, taking in those four races 1st, 3rd, 4th & 5th places. Her grand parents were not closly related at all. She is from some great speed stock and for this year you have the only one I have to judge this breeding by. No pressure Renee!!

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> The young birds are doing great here.
> So far I've been able to get them 15 miles down he road.
> Tomorrow if the weather looks good we will do 20 miles.


Glad to hear they are doing good. I'm looking forward to seeing how they do for you when the races start. As far as I know to date the only one lost of the young I shipped out is the one of your that had the run in with a car it's first time out. Keep them going and keep me informed.

Thanks,

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Had a baby hatch out today and the other piping out. The silver pair will be hatching out in a few days. I have them fostered out. I am down to 8 eggs left to hatch and I am going to call the breeding season good. The feed bill is getting to big. Time to put the birds on maintenance mix and the young birds on racing mix. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Had the birds out this morning. All flew for about 30 minutes....they've been locked up for about 4 days because of rain.....some fell out and landed on the roof. Still had about 20 flying and they stayed up for about 50 minutes and started dropping out one or two at a time. After an hour, all but one bird had landed. That one bird flew around here, dipping and diving and just having a blast all by its self for another 20 minutes. We could see it was a BB, but had no idea WHICH BB is was. When it FINALLY landed, it was 9194.



She did it again this morning. Wasn't too hot or humid so all the birds flew good. That last group of about 10 landed after an hour. We thought all the birds were in and then here comes a bird zipping across the sky. After 20 minutes of flying all alone around the house here, it landed. It was 9194 again. She LOVES to fly..........only thing is she landed in a tree and sat for another 20 minutes before she trapped. 
I'm hoping she'll grow out of that. When she trapped, I gave her a little bit of feed, but not much. Don't want to punish her for flying 1 hour and 20 minutes by not feeding her.  I picked her up when she came in and her little body is solid as a rock. She's about the drop her 8th flight, so she should be good to go by the time we ship our first race.


----------



## Ed

ace in the hole said:


> Glad to hear they are doing good. I'm looking forward to seeing how they do for you when the races start. As far as I know to date the only one lost of the young I shipped out is the one of your that had the run in with a car it's first time out. Keep them going and keep me informed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ace



They did a 20 mile road toss yesterday and beat me home 
Thats 20 air miles.
I had to actually drive 33 miles.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> She did it again this morning. Wasn't too hot or humid so all the birds flew good. That last group of about 10 landed after an hour. We thought all the birds were in and then here comes a bird zipping across the sky. After 20 minutes of flying all alone around the house here, it landed. It was 9194 again. She LOVES to fly..........only thing is she landed in a tree and sat for another 20 minutes before she trapped.
> I'm hoping she'll grow out of that. When she trapped, I gave her a little bit of feed, but not much. Don't want to punish her for flying 1 hour and 20 minutes by not feeding her.  I picked her up when she came in and her little body is solid as a rock. She's about the drop her 8th flight, so she should be good to go by the time we ship our first race.


Other than that tree thing it sounds like she is ready to go. Maybe i'll just have judge her by the time she lands in the tree instead of when she clocks. LOL

Ace


----------



## Ed

How are you liking the new living quarters Mark?


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Other than that tree thing it sounds like she is ready to go. Maybe i'll just have judge her by the time she lands in the tree instead of when she clocks. LOL
> 
> Ace


I'll be sure to note both.........LOL


----------



## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> How are you liking the new living quarters Mark?


I am in Michigan now. I'll be flying back to Florida tomorrow for a week to see my new home. I will be making the big move in September. In my back yard is the canal that runs along the north end of Lake Okeechobee. I can sit out back and watch the gators swim by. 

ACE


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> I am in Michigan now. I'll be flying back to Florida tomorrow for a week to see my new home. I will be making the big move in September. In my back yard is the canal that runs along the north end of Lake Okeechobee. I can sit out back and watch the gators swim by.
> 
> ACE


YIKES!


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> YIKES!


Na, most of them arn't man eaters. You just have to remember not to try and pet the the big ones!!


----------



## Lovebirds

*New pics...*

while the birds were out today. This is one of yours. Don't know which one. 










That's 9194 in the back there. I can only tell because of the pink snap band. The other 5 all got gray snap bands. If I'd been thinking, I could have put a different color on each bird so I'd know which was which.









A busy boy.......LOL


----------



## Ed

ace in the hole said:


> Na, most of them arn't man eaters. You just have to remember not to try and pet the the big ones!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
I wouldnt try to pet a single one LOL!!!


----------



## Lovebirds

*Watch close..........LOL*

9194 continues to loft fly all alone for a few minutes after everyone has landed AND trapped. This morning, two other birds were out and they got up and flew a few more minutes with her, but after they landed, she kept flying. You have to watch CLOSE, because I only caught her 3 times in the video. It's hard to keep track of one bird with a video camera and the trees.....LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdOg-r_LbT4


----------



## Ed

Young birds did a 25 mile road toss on Saturday and a 30 mile one on Sunday.
So far they are doing great!!!!


----------



## Lovebirds

StoN3d said:


> Young birds did a 25 mile road toss on Saturday and a 30 mile one on Sunday.
> So far they are doing great!!!!


That's GREAT!!


----------



## ace in the hole

Thanks for the video Renee. Let's hope all of her flying is straight home when it comes to the races. 

Ed, Keep up the good work. It sounds like you have them off to a good start.


Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Thanks for the video Renee. Let's hope all of her flying is straight home when it comes to the races.
> 
> Ed, Keep up the good work. It sounds like you have them off to a good start.
> 
> 
> Ace


Today was the first time that she came down with the last group. I think they were hungry today because they all trapped pretty quick. They acted like they weren't hungry yesterday, so they didn't get all their food. LOL

Here's 9194

















And 9196....pretty bird.


----------



## ace in the hole

*9196* looks like a cock to me. His father took a first place at 210 mi. last year. His mother is SFL stock and full sister to one of my best sprinters. This breeding is a cross with some Janssen showing up on both sides. You also have his nest mate *9195.* 

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> *9196* looks like a cock to me. His father took a first place at 210 mi. last year. His mother is SFL stock and full sister to one of my best sprinters. This breeding is a cross with some Janssen showing up on both sides. You also have his nest mate *9195.*
> 
> Ace


Off the top of my head.........I think I got 4 cocks and 2 hens. 9194 and 9199 are the hens. The others are cocks..........(I think)........LOL


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Off the top of my head.........I think I got 4 cocks and 2 hens. 9194 and 9199 are the hens. The others are cocks..........(I think)........LOL


Your *9199* and nest mate *9198* are from the top sprint hen I just mentioned. That makes them cusins to *9195* and *9196*. The father of *9199* & *9198* is *FM 5462 *from Hillfamilyloft stock and was the most consistant bird from Randy's stock. In the six races he was in he placed 2nd, 8th, 9th, 16th, 27th and 29th. If you get good fliers form both these pairs I would say you should breed them together and send me a pair of the young next year. 

That leaves only one bird I have not given info on here and I think Randy would like to know about that bird. *9197* is out of two stock birds sent to me by our own Randy Hill of Hillfamilyloft.

Randy, his parents are *1354 & 1364*. He was an only child and quite fat and sassy. By the way, *1364* is the mother to *FM 5462.*

Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

The last babies are feathering out and I think the silver pair had two silver birds for the second time in a row. Looks like two cocks then. Two of the babies are ready to move to the young bird loft, but It is still not ready. Baseball and yard work have hampered my progress. It should be up and ready for birds next week. One good think is that they are settling in to the back yard just not in the right loft. They are two BB and are very relaxed and tame. They should be ok. When I get them over, I will have a few 6 weeks old and will need to watch them pretty close. All the young birds will be from my loft so they should stick around. Just not getting the trap training in. I think I will go to the young bird meeting in ABQ on the 11th and will check on the team when I am down there. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

PS. I think I have some of those pink clip on bands for your birds also. I will try and keep up with Renee on keeping track of them. They will look nice on those silver birds.


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> The last babies are feathering out and *I think the silver pair had two silver birds for the second time in a row. Looks like two cocks then. *Two of the babies are ready to move to the young bird loft, but It is still not ready. Baseball and yard work have hampered my progress. It should be up and ready for birds next week. One good think is that they are settling in to the back yard just not in the right loft. They are two BB and are very relaxed and tame. They should be ok. When I get them over, I will have a few 6 weeks old and will need to watch them pretty close. All the young birds will be from my loft so they should stick around. Just not getting the trap training in. I think I will go to the young bird meeting in ABQ on the 11th and will check on the team when I am down there.
> 
> Randy


Hi Randy,

This works well with my plans. As you remember I need a good cock or two from this breeding and the Houben/Janssen cross you have. Both of these breedings produce winners. I will be crossing them together for next years racing season.


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> That leaves only one bird I have not given info on here and I think Randy would like to know about that bird. *9197* is out of two stock birds sent to me by our own Randy Hill of Hillfamilyloft.
> 
> 
> Ace



I plan on catching up the birds tonight after dark so we can do a inventory and dip them tomorrow. I know that I've got 4 less birds than I did back in March when they went out the first time, but with the exception of one, I don't know who they all are. 
I'll let you know.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

ace in the hole said:


> *9196* looks like a cock to me. His father took a first place at 210 mi. last year. *His mother is SFL stock and full sister to one of my best sprinters.* This breeding is a cross with some Janssen showing up on both sides. You also have his nest mate *9195.*
> 
> Ace


Hello Ace,

I saw this quite some time ago, and I sort of remember the hen. I think it was one of those situations where I had let some birds go early in my breeding program. Took a couple of seasons and a couple of generations to figure out that I had a couple of very special birds which were producing something special. Thank you for sharing this. If you have the band number I could share some more details with you. If I am not mistaken, she is a blue bar hen, correct ? And a 2004 bird ?


----------



## ace in the hole

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello Ace,
> 
> I saw this quite some time ago, and I sort of remember the hen. I think it was one of those situations where I had let some birds go early in my breeding program. Took a couple of seasons and a couple of generations to figure out that I had a couple of very special birds which were producing something special. Thank you for sharing this. If you have the band number I could share some more details with you. If I am not mistaken, she is a blue bar hen, correct ? And a 2004 bird ?


Hi Warren,

The grandmother to Renee's birds is a silverbar. Both her and her mate are 04 YORK birds from your loft. She is YORK 620, a grandaughter of Duke Of Earl. On her ped. it says, Deploma and cash winner of 336 mile "Race From Hell". She is paired to her Uncle, YORK 830 a son of Duke Of Earl. He is a bluebar. 

This pair is at Hillfamilyloft's right now. This is the pair producing the silvers Randy speaks of in his posts here. Their dirct young will be flying down there in ABQ and in Michigan this year. I'll see how they fly for others. 

There is a bird Randy would like more info on. She is 04 YORK 836, a bluebar hen. This hen is paired to one of Ken Munson's Houbens. My plan for next season is to cross the young from these two pairings. 

Ace


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Thank you Ace for the Update.

At this stage of my breeding program, it is becoming much harder to find a bird in my breeding program which does not have the Duke of Earl in the pedigree somewhere. Rarely do I let direct children get away from me anymore. In the early years I didn't know anybetter. 

Randy's cock bird 04 YORK 830 also has as his Dam, the "Blue Falcon." Decended from the "Vegas Cock" a 1st Place Triple Crown Winner. A race winning son of the "President" and reportedly one of the best daughters from a famous local cock "720" of Fred Smeltzer fame. It took many years and generations and combinations to produce "Blue Falcon". As you can see from the link below, Duke x Blue Falcon also produced some early success. This year 1/2 brothers and sisters from both parents will be in both the Winners Cup and the Flamingo this year. "Blue Falcon" was mated to her own brother, and Duke to his own daughter "Dutchess of York". Who knows, another win at the 350 Miles and this family line will build on their growing fame. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=242917&postcount=23

Wish you continued success with their offspring. 

PS. The silver color goes back to a red hen, who was a daughter of Ludo's famous Late Rode 430 (sire to Vos 77 & Silver Boy) x Dejuf full sister "The Dream" winner of 1st National Orleans.


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## hillfamilyloft

The president of our club, Anthony Tapia, has some Duke of Earl blood. He has also brought in some Ludo blood from New York that has been highly successful for him. I will study the peds and maybe we can combine the bloodlines. That silver hen has been quite prolific of a breeder. We are racing many of the offspring in Albuquerque this year. I will get my records together and get the band numbers on the post. They are trap training and flying around the coop. I will be checking on them this weekend. I will keep you posted.


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## hillfamilyloft

The following are offspring off of Ace's birds. Looks like 10 will be flying in ABQ. 

York 830 x York 620
Flying in ABQ
FM 7733 Slate Wf
FM 7734 Silver
FM 7793 One BB one Silver out of this pair
FM 7794 
FM 7795 Silver
FM 7796 SilverFlying with my team
FM 7762 Silver
FM 7763 Silver

York 836 x Houben
Flying ABQ
FM 7731 BC
FM 7732 BBFlying My Team
FM 7797 
LL 353
FM 7760
FM 7761

Kona Pair
Flying in ABQ
FM 7791
FM 7792
Flying my team
New hatches no bands yet


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## hillfamilyloft

when I added color it messed up things. Blue are in ABQ, purple with me. The 10 are flying with Steve Guzman in ABQ with the Los Lobos RPC. I will let you know then the races start. The other 10 will be trained out to around 150 and assessed for stock purposes. My goal is to ge ACE back the best of the best of the 20 birds for his breeding program. 

My interest in York 836 is to see where the lineage leads back to. ACE mentioned there might be some "Producer" Janssen blood. I have a Janssen hen that has Producer blood. She has raised me some great birds. Looking at this bloodline to be a possible cross to mine. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> I plan on catching up the birds tonight after dark so we can do a inventory and dip them tomorrow. I know that I've got 4 less birds than I did back in March when they went out the first time, but with the exception of one, I don't know who they all are.
> I'll let you know.


Well, took me while to get back to you...........been just a tiny bit busy........
Anyway..........all 6 of your birds are still here. I was watching 9197 this morning. He was chasing his hen. I think that when I've been seeing him, I thought it was the other BIG bird that you sent. When he goes through the trap, he has to lift one wing a bit because he almost doesn't fit in the hole............LOL
9194 continues to do her solo flights every day AND continues to land and sit in the same tree, on the same branch, for about 10 minutes before she decides to trap.........not sure what, if anything I can do to break her from this. Just have to hope that after she's flown 120 miles, she doesn't WANT to sit in a tree.............
If she was just sitting in a tree and not flying, I'd know what to do to break her, but I just simply can't punish her for flying at least 15 minutes, and usually 20 minutes longer than any bird in the loft.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Checked on the birds today. All three silver birds are still there. One is driving him crazy because it will not trap. I told him to just fly it and it will pay him dividends in the end. I also recognized the slate bird. That is all the inventory that I could do without catching them all. The loft was clean and cozy. Steve has a window in his garage that looks into the young bird loft. The birds were extremely tame, so he is spending a lot of time with them. The first race is middle of September with 8 races and an optional 400 mile at the end. 

Randy


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> 9194 continues to do her solo flights every day AND continues to land and sit in the same tree, on the same branch, for about 10 minutes before she decides to trap.........*not sure what, if anything I can do to break her from this. *Just have to hope that after she's flown 120 miles, she doesn't WANT to sit in a tree.............
> If she was just sitting in a tree and not flying, I'd know what to do to break her, but I just simply can't punish her for flying at least 15 minutes, and usually 20 minutes longer than any bird in the loft.


The answer, no problem. Just cut down all of the trees around your house and loft. That should take care of that! 

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> The answer, no problem. Just cut down all of the trees around your house and loft. That should take care of that!
> 
> Ace


We would be tree cuttin' fools!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> We would be tree cuttin' fools!!!!!!!!!


I know. I saw all of those trees in the pics and videos you have posted. 

I may have a true answer for you if you can find it in yourself to fly your birds on a light feeding. You do call your birds to feed, right? Do you feed peanuts and/or other things for a treat? Use one call for feeding time and another for treats. I will bet you any money when she comes home from the races she will land in the same tree. When she does then (not before) on race day rotate calls. First food then treat and continue this until she comes in. This should bring her down within a minute or less.

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> I know. I saw all of those trees in the pics and videos you have posted.
> 
> I may have a true answer for you if you can find it in yourself to fly your birds on a light feeding. You do call your birds to feed, right? Do you feed peanuts and/or other things for a treat? Use one call for feeding time and another for treats. I will bet you any money when she comes home from the races she will land in the same tree. When she does then (not before) on race day rotate calls. First food then treat and continue this until she comes in. This should bring her down within a minute or less.
> 
> Ace


I guess I must have missed this post. It's been pretty hectic around here for about a month and I've not been around much.
I USED to feed peanuts, but I simply can't get them anymore here and so I just stopped feeding them. I do call the birds to feed, but 9194 is nothing close to tame nor do I think she would even come to me for something special. 
Now, having said that, the real reason I came here to post real quick.........

WHAT THE HECK KIND OF BIRD DID YOU SEND ME????? LOL

This morning, we turned the birds out. They flew for about 15 minutes I guess. I've got 10 hens on dummy eggs and they fly a few minutes and head straight back into the loft. Well, when they come down, half the flock follows them. After the hens got in the loft along with a few other birds, I got the flag out and sent the birds that were out, back up. Now, during all of this, 9194 is still flying with about 5 other birds. Eventually, the whole flock came down, except 9194. She's still flying. All of the sudden, as she came across the sky over the house, you could see her quickly pick up speed and she was gone. Right behind her, there was a hawk. I don't think the hawk was after her and after she went out of sight, the hawk continued to circle over the top of the house. Just sort of gliding along............all of the sudden, here comes 9194 again and I swear, she flew within 5 ft of that hawk. She did this about 3 times and then took off and was gone again. The hawk mosied on, headed south. It was another 1/2 hour before we saw 9194 again. She continued to fly for about 10 minutes, then landed in her favorite tree. However, she only sat there for about a minute, and then came down and trapped. She flew a total of almos 2 hours this morning. 
SO........I'm convinced, that once racing starts and she on the wing for 3 or 4 hours, there won't be a problem with her trapping when she gets home. That's all if she quits "playing" with the hawks..............LOL


----------



## Ed

hhahahahahahaha
when my young birds loft fly they go and bother the ravens that are flying around.
they fly right at them.. I think they are messing with them.
They do the same thing to circling voltures.
its a riot to watch.
are my birds the only ones that do that?


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## RodSD

Renee,

I used to have a bird like that tempts the hawks by going closer to it and darting back and forth. She even rescued my other young birds when they were being chased by a hawk by going in between the hawk and my young bird distracting the hawk. She was smart and tame bird. But in the end a hawk got her. She is the one in my avatar.


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## Lovebirds

*First training toss*

is tomorrow, weather permitting. They're calling for most sunny until the afternoon. We're taking them 5 miles (I think), so I'll let you know what happens.


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## Guest

good to see you here Renee how you doing these days ? hope all is good and getting better


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## Lovebirds

LokotaLoft said:


> good to see you here Renee how you doing these days ? hope all is good and getting better


I'm doing good. Been quite busy around here. Grandma in and out of hospital and Mom had surgery. Brother visiting from CA and another brother coming in from PA.............just a lot going on.

Well, the birds..........ummm............didn't go so very well this AM. Released 1/2 of the birds at 9:00. At 9:10, they're still flying in circles where they were released. The fact that there's about 100 (AT LEAST) ferals living where we released them, didn't help matter. Of course, about 20 or so got up to fly with my birds. At 9:15, we hadn't seen our first group for 5 minutes, so we released the second group. Yep...you guessed it. They "found" the first group and brought them back, so now ALL of my birds are flying back and forth and round and round.  We watched them for another 5 minutes and then left to go home. Nothing we could do anyway. When we got home, there were birds sitting on the loft and some were inside already. Maybe they were waiting for US to leave???? LOL
Anyway, it's now 3 hours later and I've got 37 birds out of 44 home. Of the 7 birds missing, 4 are mine and 3 are Ace's. 9194 and 9199 haven't gotten home yet. I don't know for sure which the other one is. I know that 9197 and 9198 are here along with one other. I haven't bothered to try to catch them and see. 
At first we started to not release them because of the ferals, but then we thought......those ferals have lived there forever, just 5 miles from us and we never even knew it. Surely our birds at some time along the way in the past 7 years have come across these birds, so what the heck?
I'm just hoping that the 7 that are missing or at least SOME of them will decide to come home before dark.


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## Yeasmin

Goodluck with them.


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## ace in the hole

Hey Renee,

Let's just hope they get it figured out and come home soon. Keep us informed.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Hey Renee,
> 
> Let's just hope they get it figured out and come home soon. Keep us informed.
> 
> Ace


Will do. No sign of any of them yet. It's really hot here so maybe when it cools down? We'll see.


----------



## Lovebirds

One just came in. Well, there was two, but one was a feral. I KNEW they were hanging out over on the wrong side of the tracks!! LOL


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## Lovebirds

Well, it's after 7:00 PM, dark and stormy and POURING down rain. No more birds will be showing up tonight I'm pretty sure.
I'll just hope they come in tomorrow morning. They should be hungry by then, unless of course, their "cousins" show them where to get food. 
6 birds missing now. I just hope they're dry where ever they are.


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace thought that I would drop a line about the birds, I still have all the birds. They have been loft flying for a long time I have been taking them out for very short toss about 3 miles.It has been very hot and i go to work very early so the only time I have is in the evenings. I have about 60 YBs but only 30 are able to go on the short tosses because they are molting and getting flight feathers in. I should be able to get them all going together soon. My first Race is Oct,3.


----------



## ace in the hole

Southwing said:


> Hello, Ace thought that I would drop a line about the birds, I still have all the birds. They have been loft flying for a long time I have been taking them out for very short toss about 3 miles.It has been very hot and i go to work very early so the only time I have is in the evenings. I have about 60 YBs but only 30 are able to go on the short tosses because they are molting and getting flight feathers in. I should be able to get them all going together soon. My first Race is Oct,3.


Hi there, 

It's good to hear from you and to hear you have all of the young yet. That may change as you get them out further. You still have plenty of time before your races start. Keep posting here to let us know how they are doing. Thanks

Ace


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## ace in the hole

Well Renee,

What time is feeding time this morning? I expect you will see two of those missing six about that time this morning. One of them will be 9194. That is my prodiction anyway.

Ace


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## Ed

Still have the young birds Mark 
Got them out to 60 miles last weekend.
Race season starts in a little over two weeks.


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## ace in the hole

StoN3d said:


> Still have the young birds Mark
> Got them out to 60 miles last weekend.
> Race season starts in a little over two weeks.


Good, I am really looking forward to the races. 

This weekend will be the third race for the young birds up here. I'll go to the club for clock out monday and see how my birds are doing for the club members who are flying my birds.

Ace


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## Lovebirds

9194 came in around 9:00 this morning. After she trapped, I put the birds out to fly and have just gotten them all in, so I'll do a head count when they settle down to see if any showed up while they were out.
I figured 9194 would show up too. She was true to form..........LOL
We were eating breakfast and saw a BB go across the back yard and up into THE tree.........LOL...we knew then that it was her. She sat there for about 5 minutes then came down and trapped.


----------



## Lovebirds

OK. Did a head count. Still missing 4 birds. Don't which of MY 2 are missing. 9196 and 9199 are your 2 that are missing. I'll keep ya posted.


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> OK. Did a head count. *Still missing 4 birds*. Don't which of MY 2 are missing. 9196 and 9199 are your 2 that are missing. I'll keep ya posted.


Well, it looks like my last prodiction was right on. So, i'll keep my next prodiction to myself. 

Ok, one hint. 

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Well, it looks like my last prodiction was right on. So, i'll keep my next prodiction to myself.
> 
> Ok, one hint.
> 
> Ace


LOL.........so what's the hint???


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> LOL.........so what's the hint???


You were looking at the hint.


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> You were looking at the hint.


What does that mean? Come on! Don't do that to me!!! LOL
Just had another bird show up at 3:00.
3 missing now.
Guess there's still hope. She was hungry too, so I guess the feral didn't feed her too good or she didn't like what they were eating. LOL


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> What does that mean? Come on! Don't do that to me!!! LOL
> Just had another bird show up at 3:00.
> 3 missing now.
> Guess there's still hope. She was hungry too, so I guess the feral didn't feed her too good or she didn't like what they were eating. LOL


Alright, if you must know! This bird may be the one I would have prodicted to come home over the next three days. I really hope I am wrong. Because that would leave one of yours and two of mine still out there with the ferals.

If I was to go one further, my final prodiction seeing that this bird was back by 3pm today would be that you will get one back yet in the next few days and one more in 1 1/2 to 2 weeks from now. Giving you a total loss of only one bird from yesterdays toss.

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Alright, if you must know! This bird may be the one I would have prodicted to come home over the next three days. I really hope I am wrong. Because that would leave one of yours and two of mine still out there with the ferals.
> 
> If I was to go one further, my final prodiction seeing that this bird was back by 3pm today would be that you will get one back yet in the next few days and one more in 1 1/2 to 2 weeks from now. Giving you a total loss of only one bird from yesterdays toss.
> 
> Ace


Well, since I don't which other one of mine is missing, I won't make any guesses about whether it will or will not come home. Out of the two of yours that are missing, I really would love to have 9199 come in. She's such a little thing and sweet. You should hear her give me hell when I pull her off the nest every morning and make her go out and fly. She just screams at me........
well, time will tell.


----------



## Lovebirds

Ok. Let me get this straight once and for all...........LOL
I told you that 9194, 96, 97 and 98 were here. That was wrong.
9195, 96 and 98 were the ones who came in the day of the toss (Tues, 4 Aug). 9194 came in yesterday and 9197 came in this morning. 9199 is still missing. 
So, I was out 2 birds this morning around 10:00. We left for about 3 hours and when I came home, one of my birds was in a section that I left open with food and water in case one showed up while I wasn't here. The bird, however, that was in there is known for coming in late sometimes, so I honestly don't know if he just came down out of a tree.. after we left or if he/she was actually my lost bird. Have to do a count in a little while to determine that. 
SOoooo, I'm missing just one of your birds now. That's IF she didn't come in with the birds when they went out to fly this morning. We did have a feral show up here and fly with our birds for a few minutes, so it's possible that ONE of the lost ones did show up and brought a feral with it. 
If she doesn't come in today, I don't much look for her. She was on eggs, so something may have happened to her. I don't know.
Are you confused yet? LOL


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Ok. Let me get this straight once and for all...........LOL
> I told you that 9194, 96, 97 and 98 were here. That was wrong.
> 9195, 96 and 98 were the ones who came in the day of the toss (Tues, 4 Aug). 9194 came in yesterday and 9197 came in this morning. 9199 is still missing.
> So, I was out 2 birds this morning around 10:00. We left for about 3 hours and when I came home, one of my birds was in a section that I left open with food and water in case one showed up while I wasn't here. The bird, however, that was in there is known for coming in late sometimes, so I honestly don't know if he just came down out of a tree.. after we left or if he/she was actually my lost bird. Have to do a count in a little while to determine that.
> SOoooo, I'm missing just one of your birds now. That's IF she didn't come in with the birds when they went out to fly this morning. We did have a feral show up here and fly with our birds for a few minutes, so it's possible that ONE of the lost ones did show up and brought a feral with it.
> If she doesn't come in today, I don't much look for her. She was on eggs, so something may have happened to her. I don't know.
> *Are you confused yet?* LOL


*Not at all*, *By George I Think I've Got It!*

I hope 9199 makes it back. All we can do is wait and see.

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

Took the birds again this morning to the same spot. Released half at 9:20. As soon as they left the basket, the feral flock got up and mixed with them and they ALL head north (the wrong way by the way) out of sight. 9:25 we released the second group. There were no ferals left. LOL
We arrived home at 9:40 and the second group was in the loft already along with 4 birds from the first group. 9194 was in those 4 birds. 
The second group of birds got home about 10:00, so they flew quite a while, but little did they know, they were no where near through flying..........just as they landed, ol' Mr. Hawk attacked. He hit one bird, but Everett yelled and the hawk went one way and the pigeon went the other way. That scared the whole group, so they flew for another 45 minutes, except for one bird that flew for 2 hours and 10 minutes. That poor bird was SO scared. I've never seen a bird trap so fast once it finally landed. 
As of right now, I"m missing one bird and I assume that it's which ever one the hawk got. 
I haven't checked to make sure, but from the feathers that fell on the ground, it appears to be a DC or splashed bird that got hit, so I"m fairly certain that all of your birds are in the loft. Well, except for 9199. She hasn't shown up yet.
It's been weeks since we saw a hawk, and now one has visited for two days in a row, so the birds will be locked down for a couple of days. The hawk went after them yesterday afternoon too.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Steve started road training in ABQ. He took the birds out 5 miles and tossed them in groups of 5. He said all birds were accounted for. He is going to do 3-4 road tosses a week and get them out to 70 miles or so. The first race is September 19th. The race schedule is on the Loslobosrpc.com webpage. I will keep you posted when I know something. He has not done an inventory so I do not know what is still in the loft. He is at 36 birds. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

The "powers that be" have decided to move our race schedule back 2 weeks, so now we're starting Sept. 26 instead of Sept. 12.  A bad week end or two and we'll be racing birds in December. That makes SO much sense to me.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Lovebirds said:


> The "powers that be" have decided to move our race schedule back 2 weeks, so now we're starting Sept. 26 instead of Sept. 12.  A bad week end or two and we'll be racing birds in December. That makes SO much sense to me.


We have dates and such pretty much written in stone within our Consitution and By Laws. And changes must occur many months before the events. If you or other fanciers were training and planning on Sept 12, that sort of does mess you up. Why are they changing this, weeks before the actual race ?


----------



## Pigeon lower

Alot of people are getting set back on the race's..


----------



## Pigeon lower

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We have dates and such pretty much written in stone within our Consitution and By Laws. And changes must occur many months before the events. If you or other fanciers were training and planning on Sept 12, that sort of does mess you up. Why are they changing this, weeks before the actual race ?


 How would it mess them up from the setback when it means more training time..?


----------



## Lovebirds

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> We have dates and such pretty much written in stone within our Consitution and By Laws. And changes must occur many months before the events. If you or other fanciers were training and planning on Sept 12, that sort of does mess you up. Why are they changing this, weeks before the actual race ?


Warren, don't even get me started. You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Or maybe you would. The bottom line is, the schedule has changed because that's what "they" want to do. Period. End of story. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the caboose.........time will tell, and if it does, it's the PIGEONS that will pay the price. Not the fanciers.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Warren, don't even get me started. You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Or maybe you would. The bottom line is, the schedule has changed because that's what "they" want to do. Period. End of story. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the caboose.........time will tell, and if it does, it's the PIGEONS that will pay the price. Not the fanciers.


I know your club is IF. I do not believe they could do that if they were with the AU. 

I hope it doesn't mess you up too bad...

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> I know your club is IF. I do not believe they could do that if they were with the AU.
> 
> I hope it doesn't mess you up too bad...
> 
> Ace


Sure they could. It's not the club, it's the combine. The AU rules state that you can't change a race schedule once the series is IN PROGRESS. We fly (supposedly) by the AU race rules.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

Lovebirds said:


> Sure they could. It's not the club, it's the combine. The AU rules state that you can't change a race schedule once the series is IN PROGRESS. We fly (supposedly) by the AU race rules.


Not to go off on a totally different subject, but that issue, if true, would prevent our combine from all going AU. We have our race course set up on a 3year rule. Almost would require a consitutional convention and a super majority. Othewise we would be switching every year, depending on which clubs shifted votes. It's amazing how some clubs and combines run so differently.


----------



## Lovebirds

After a week of family visiting from out of town (everyone has gone back home now), we're getting the birds back on the road.
Took them 11 1/2 miles this AM. Planned on 10 but by the time we got to where 10 miles was and then found a good spot to release, it wound up being 11 1/2.....which is fine with me. 
First group (1/2 of the birds) circled for about 4 minutes after release. Waited 10 minutes and after not seeing them any more, we released the other 1/2. They took off like rockets and I have no idea where they went. They were just GONE........
I suspect that the 2nd group could still see the 1st group and flew to catch up with them, because 20 minutes after the second group was released, all the birds were home. Well, except for 3. 9194 came in 30 minutes after everyone else, and now, about 1 1/2 hours later, I'm missing 2 birds.
All 5 of yours are accounted for Mark.
They did so good from this spot, that we may jump them to 20 miles next time. We'll see.
This is why I don't get a big rush to start road training. We jumped them from 5 to 11 1/2 miles with no problem. Weather permitting, I could have them out to 40 miles easily but the 1st week of Sept. We've still got 5 weeks before the first race.


----------



## Lovebirds

One of the two missing birds just came in.


----------



## Lovebirds

Last missing bird came in while we were gone to dinner.


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## Guest

glad they are doing good and coming home well even if a little on the late side ...theres always gonna be some slow learners in every flock  I have a ton myself lol


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## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Last missing bird came in while we were gone to dinner.


After I posted this message, I counted the birds. Came up with 1 extra. Had Everett count them yesterday (I was out of town all day) and he came up with 43 too. So, apparently, another bird had come home while we were out to dinner. So this morning, I started looking and found one of the birds that we had lost on our first toss back on 4 Aug. She was gone for 13 days, but has good weight and looks good. 
So, I'm only missing one bird and that's 9199. I haven't given up on her yet. She STILL might show up any day. Just never know.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Ace

Steve has the ABQ birds out to 20 miles today. The first race is the 19th, so he is right on schedule. He bought a clock and will have the inventoried by next weekend. I will let you know if they are all still there. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

Took the birds 22 miles this AM.
First group........19 birds, 9196 and 9194 were in that group. Released at 9:40...when we got home at 10:25 16 of the 19 were already home and in the loft. 9196 was here. 9194 showed up, all alone at 11:30. Still missing 2 out of the first group.

Second group.....20 birds. Released at 9:50. 9195, 9197 and 9198 are in this group. It is almost 12:00 and we haven't seen a single bird from this group yet.......

Will update later


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Took the birds 22 miles this AM.
> First group........19 birds, 9196 and 9194 were in that group. Released at 9:40...when we got home at 10:25 16 of the 19 were already home and in the loft. 9196 was here. 9194 showed up, all alone at 11:30. Still missing 2 out of the first group.
> 
> Second group.....20 birds. Released at 9:50. 9195, 9197 and 9198 are in this group. It is almost 12:00 and we haven't seen a single bird from this group yet.......
> 
> Will update later


Ok. NOW I'm getting worried. Almost 1:00 PM and NO more birds have shown up..........


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Ok. NOW I'm getting worried. Almost 1:00 PM and NO more birds have shown up..........



Well, it's 7:45 and no more birds have shown up. I'll give them until tomorrow, but I've got a really bad feeling about this. If none or not many show up tomorrow, I won't be racing young birds this year. I have 17 birds right now and would still have training to do and won't commit to fly with so few birds and put up with the crap we have to put up with. Plus, it's not worth the time and money to train so few birds.


----------



## bbcdon

Renee, I have my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## Guest

I will ask my mom to pray for your birds return tomorrow , she got the power when it comes to talking to the big guy so hope they make it back safe an sound ,every last one of them


----------



## Lovebirds

9197 (I think) and 9198 came in at 9:00 this AM. I didn't catch them to read the bands, but know that it's two of your birds.
3 others have come in since then, so 5 have made it so far. Still got a long ways to go..........16 to be exact.........


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> 9197 (I think) and 9198 came in at 9:00 this AM. I didn't catch them to read the bands, but know that it's two of your birds.
> 3 others have come in since then, so 5 have made it so far. Still got a long ways to go..........16 to be exact.........


A total of 8 birds made it home today. Any that MIGHT come in tomorrow are going to be pretty much shot. The late ones today have flown God only knows how many miles. They were pretty thin and they certainly weren't thin when the left here yesterday morning. And they didn't get that way by sitting somewhere all day long. Poor babies.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Renee

My thoughts here would be to rest the birds for 4 or 5 days, just loft flying. I always think we in the US overtrain our birds. If you team becomes smaller, train them less. You may win it all with a 20 bird team that you only take to the 30 and 60 mile marks once each from here on out. I think some take their birds out every day and run them into the ground. You have quite a while until the first race. Also what have shown up are your smarter birds to find their way back. When I was a kid I had a 20 bird team that I only got out to 30 miles before the 80 mile first race. I loft flew twice daily and the birds were in great shape. I won the first two races out of young and old fliers. If its stressing you out, its stressing them out. Sounds like you both need some rest. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> Renee
> 
> My thoughts here would be to rest the birds for 4 or 5 days, just loft flying. I always think we in the US overtrain our birds. If you team becomes smaller, train them less. You may win it all with a 20 bird team that you only take to the 30 and 60 mile marks once each from here on out. I think some take their birds out every day and run them into the ground. You have quite a while until the first race. Also what have shown up are your smarter birds to find their way back. When I was a kid I had a 20 bird team that I only got out to 30 miles before the 80 mile first race. I loft flew twice daily and the birds were in great shape. I won the first two races out of young and old fliers. If its stressing you out, its stressing them out. Sounds like you both need some rest.
> 
> Randy


Thanks Randy. Rest is exactly what they're going to get. 
I'm certainly not overtraining them though. They've been to 5 miles twice, did "ok" the first one and excellent on the second one. Jumped them to 11 miles and they did good, so we jumped to 22 miles. 1/2 did excellent and 1/2 did not so good as you know. 
I'm a little surprised that Warren hasn't jumped in on this..........so, let me give him a reason to. 
I'm STILL convinced that this group of birds got tangled up with another group somewhere. 
Now, Warren might say that I'm making excuses............LOL
I don't think so. Doesn't make sense that 1/2 of my birds, that are trained and fed and cared for just like the other 1/2, would, when released 10 minutes after the 1st group, get completely and utterly SO lost that it takes them 24 hours or more to get home from 22 miles. If that's the case, how lucky am I? That I can split my birds up into to groups and put ALL of the SMART ones in one basket and ALL of the DUMB ones in another basket. 
Anyway.........I'll never know what really happened, so we'll go back to square one. 
I had one more come in this morning, so that gives me a race team of 29.......


----------



## Lovebirds

Was out taking pics of the baby and 9198 was sitting on his nest of dummy eggs. That birds FILLS up the nest bowl!! 
I had to move the water to the floor. He and his hen INSISTED that they use the water shelf to nest on. 32 nest boxes weren't good enough for him and his lady...........LOL


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Steve who is flying our team in ABQ, releases 5 birds at a time. You never know when one group will come across something. Smaller bunches are probably less likely to attract hawks also. Sounds like the team will be back soon. I think it was a good move to split the team at release. 

Randy


----------



## Guest

Lovebirds said:


> Thanks Randy. Rest is exactly what they're going to get.
> I'm certainly not overtraining them though. They've been to 5 miles twice, did "ok" the first one and excellent on the second one. Jumped them to 11 miles and they did good, so we jumped to 22 miles. 1/2 did excellent and 1/2 did not so good as you know.
> I'm a little surprised that Warren hasn't jumped in on this..........so, let me give him a reason to.
> I'm STILL convinced that this group of birds got tangled up with another group somewhere.
> Now, Warren might say that I'm making excuses............LOL
> I don't think so. Doesn't make sense that 1/2 of my birds, that are trained and fed and cared for just like the other 1/2, would, when released 10 minutes after the 1st group, get completely and utterly SO lost that it takes them 24 hours or more to get home from 22 miles. If that's the case, how lucky am I? That I can split my birds up into to groups and put ALL of the SMART ones in one basket and ALL of the DUMB ones in another basket.
> Anyway.........I'll never know what really happened, so we'll go back to square one.
> I had one more come in this morning, so that gives me a race team of 29.......



Im gonna agree with you on this as if there are as many birds flying and being released in your area for training as there are in my area there is no way for your birds to avoid hitting other birds in training as well and who knows how big those flocks really are .. that can really mess up your returns if you ask me ...I think it all depends on the line of flight people are training from.


----------



## Lovebirds

Just had another bird show up. That puts me up to 30 now..........11 still missing.
Poor guy was hungry, but he made it home after 3 days and that's what counts.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Was out taking pics of the baby and 9198 was sitting on his nest of dummy eggs. That birds FILLS up the nest bowl!!
> I had to move the water to the floor. He and his hen INSISTED that they use the water shelf to nest on. 32 nest boxes weren't good enough for him and his lady...........LOL


*My move to Florida is done and I am finaly back on line!!!*

Renee,

I just wanted to pass on to you that this bird has a pair of siblings flying in Michigan for Lee Scholtz. This nest mate pair FM 7768 & FM 7769 have done good for him in the first few races. In the first three weeks 7769 has been his first bird in twice and 7768 his first bird once. I will be looking forward to seeing what this bird dose for you.

Mark


----------



## Guest

ace in the hole said:


> *My move to Florida is done and I am finaly back on line!!!*
> 
> Renee,
> 
> I just wanted to pass on to you that this bird has a pair of siblings flying in Michigan for Lee Scholtz. This nest mate pair FM 7768 & FM 7769 have done good for him in the first few races. In the first three weeks 7769 has been his first bird in twice and 7768 his first bird once. I will be looking forward to seeing what this bird dose for you.
> 
> Mark


I personally hope that everyone posts on here how well the birds that ace gave them did this year .. Im all about seeing people making progress for the better and having great returns during the race season as well .. and am glad you are finally settled in there in florida too Mark , so how big is your loft gonna be now that you are in the homeland ?


----------



## ace in the hole

LokotaLoft said:


> I personally hope that everyone posts on here how well the birds that ace gave them did this year .. Im all about seeing people making progress for the better and having great returns during the race season as well .. and am glad you are finally settled in there in florida too Mark , so how big is your loft gonna be now that you are in the homeland ?


Yes, I to hope to hear from everyone on here who are flying my birds this year. It will help me greatly for my breeding program next year.

As for the new loft. This first loft is going to be a small one. Even with the few young birds that may make the cut this fall I will only have seven or eight pair of breeders. The loft will be about 8' X 6' with an 8' X 8' flight pen. I will list some pics here as it goes up. I will start building it tomorrow.

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Just had another bird show up. That puts me up to 30 now..........11 still missing.
> Poor guy was hungry, but he made it home after 3 days and that's what counts.


Well Renee, any more of them come home? How is the team looking?

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> *My move to Florida is done and I am finaly back on line!!!*
> 
> Renee,
> 
> I just wanted to pass on to you that this bird has a pair of siblings flying in Michigan for Lee Scholtz. This nest mate pair FM 7768 & FM 7769 have done good for him in the first few races. In the first three weeks 7769 has been his first bird in twice and 7768 his first bird once. I will be looking forward to seeing what this bird dose for you.
> 
> Mark


I'm going to be curious too!! 
9194 has FINALLY decided to take a mate, so she's not flying as much as before. I actually expect her to lay eggs pretty soon. 
Want to get your thoughts on something. I thought about a PM, but then thought maybe some others would have some input into what to do or NOT to do.
Our first two race stations are way off course compared to the other race stations. 
The first two are East/Northeast from me and all of the other flyers in MY club. There's one other club to the west of us. The other clubs birds will be flying to the SW. This means, that our birds will have to break coming out of the baskets on race day. Guessing here, there will be probably about 500 birds, give or take in the first race. Approximately 175 to 200 will have to go west to get home. The other 300 birds will have to go SW to get home. I'm going to be brutally honest here. IF any of our birds go to the SW before coming home, obviously, we've lost the race in a big way AND IF any of our birds wind up going to someone elses loft, I don't trust very many of the flyers to try to get the birds back to the owner. Sorry to say that, but that's how I feel. So,, my question is........do you think that I should ship light for the first two races or go for the gusto?


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> I'm going to be curious too!!
> 9194 has FINALLY decided to take a mate, so she's not flying as much as before. I actually expect her to lay eggs pretty soon.
> Want to get your thoughts on something. I thought about a PM, but then thought maybe some others would have some input into what to do or NOT to do.
> Our first two race stations are way off course compared to the other race stations.
> The first two are East/Northeast from me and all of the other flyers in MY club. There's one other club to the west of us. The other clubs birds will be flying to the SW. This means, that our birds will have to break coming out of the baskets on race day. Guessing here, there will be probably about 500 birds, give or take in the first race. Approximately 175 to 200 will have to go west to get home. The other 300 birds will have to go SW to get home. I'm going to be brutally honest here. IF any of our birds go to the SW before coming home, obviously, we've lost the race in a big way AND IF any of our birds wind up going to someone elses loft, I don't trust very many of the flyers to try to get the birds back to the owner. Sorry to say that, but that's how I feel. So,, my question is........do you think that I should ship light for the first two races or go for the gusto?


Renee,

How far is the third race? 

My thoughts now would be... Your team is already a small team and you will probably be looking at higher losses sending your birds to the first races the way they are set up. I would ship light or not at all to the first two races ( I know that's hard to do). Train your birds or the rest of the birds on line for the rest of the races.

Your birds, your call???????


Ace


----------



## hillfamilyloft

ace in the hole said:


> Renee,
> 
> How far is the third race?
> 
> My thoughts now would be... Your team is already a small team and you will probably be looking at higher losses sending your birds to the first races the way they are set up. I would ship light or not at all to the first two races ( I know that's hard to do). Train your birds or the rest of the birds on line for the rest of the races.
> 
> Your birds, your call???????
> 
> 
> Ace


One thought is to half the team sending the first half to the first race. If they perform well then they are your team for the second race. If not sit out until the third race. If they do fly both races sit them out for the third and send your other team. Combine the teams for the forth. This way you will still have chances for average speed, top loft, etc. If you do not send to the first race you will never know how they will do in the future. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

The races go like this:
1st....123 miles
2nd...131 miles
3rd... 144 miles
4th....206 miles
5th....117 miles
6th....144 miles
7th....206 miles
8th....228 miles

I'm not scared of the distances. My birds have flown that 7th race FIRST every year since 2002 and it just got longer from there. My concern is the way the birds will have to break from the pack rather than just fly/follow rolleyesfor a while and keep on coming. 
In other words, there's two different flight paths they can take. The wrong one and we're in trouble.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> The races go like this:
> 1st....123 miles
> 2nd...131 miles
> 3rd... 144 miles
> 4th....206 miles
> 5th....117 miles
> 6th....144 miles
> 7th....206 miles
> 8th....228 miles
> 
> I'm not scared of the distances. My birds have flown that 7th race FIRST every year since 2002 and it just got longer from there. My concern is the way the birds will have to break from the pack rather than just fly/follow rolleyesfor a while and keep on coming.
> In other words, there's two different flight paths they can take. The wrong one and we're in trouble.


144 is a good distance to start some of your birds at. I think Randy said it well when he said if you want to send part of the team on the first race and the ones that handle that race well send to the second and hold the rest until the third race. I would not go for the gusto and send them all to the first race. I know you care to much for your birds to gamble with them like that.

I would hope they will vote in one line of flight for next year.

Oh, by the way. I do like those distances for the birds I sent you.

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

Renee,

I see you have your 5th race at 117 on the line of flight. Why did they set up the first two races were they did?

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> Renee,
> 
> I see you have your 5th race at 117 on the line of flight. Why did they set up the first two races were they did?
> 
> Ace


The original North course that was *VOTED in*, then *UNVOTED* in the next day......, had the races in a line of flight and progressing as you normally would, however, the guys on the long end were going to have to send their birds 230 miles or so on the first race. WE did that for YEARS, but God forbid that THEY have to do that, so they moved the first two stations to the east and a bit south to shorten up the long guys. Make sense?


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> The original North course that was *VOTED in*, then *UNVOTED* in the next day......, had the races in a line of flight and progressing as you normally would, however, the guys on the long end were going to have to send their birds 230 miles or so on the first race. WE did that for YEARS, but God forbid that THEY have to do that, so they moved the first two stations to the east and a bit south to shorten up the long guys. Make sense?


The first two races are longer for the short enders than the 5th race, but they are shorter for the long enders than the 5th race.


----------



## Lovebirds

*New pictures.*

Took the birds back to 22 miles yesterday and they were all home when we got home. They were released in groups of 4 or 5.......going again tomorrow. Trying to lure a lost bird home that's hanging out at someone's house..........LOL

Here's some pictures I took today. You can see why 9194 doesn't fly like she used to. Got "luv" on the brain.........









*9194* See that little feather sticking out at the end of her tail?? Got better pics of it below. 









*9196*


----------



## Lovebirds

here's a better picture of 9194's "funny" tail feather. It's longer than the rest....wonder what caused that???


----------



## Pigeon lower

Lovebirds said:


>


With the bar in the way she kinda looks like a barless blue. ... Also that tailfeather is weird...


----------



## Ed

I have entered the birds I got from you Mark in two races so far.
All came home on the first race but didnt place.
Last race only 3 made it back.
The BC (I cant remember the number right now...) didnt make it back yet.
They are doing fine though and I think they will soon be coming home faster.
Its only been two races


----------



## Lovebirds

Just got home from taking the birds on another toss. Released in 2 groups, 10 minutes apart. 1st group all came in together. 2nd group was 11 minutes later, mostly together. 2 out of the group came in about 10 minutes after the big group and 9194 came in 42 minutes after the big group. 
One is missing from the 2nd group.

EDIT: The one missing came in the next day.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

Just got an update from Steve in ABQ. He has had the birds out to 50 miles a few times. He will get them to about 80 before the first race in two weeks. He said he still has the three Silvers and about 30 birds in the loft. After his initial six he lost he is only down a couple of birds. A good number to manage. The are finishing up a body molt so hopefully them will be ready to go. I will keep you informed. 

Randy


----------



## Lovebirds

We won't be training this week end at all. The dreaded Dove Season opened here yesterday and the weather has been perfect, so I'm sure "they" are out there in high numbers. The weather is calling for rain starting tomorrow through about Thursday so MAYBE a toss Friday. Have to wait and see.


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> here's a better picture of 9194's "funny" tail feather. It's longer than the rest....wonder what caused that???



This may be because she is a product of a Brother / Sister breeding. 

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

Ed said:


> I have entered the birds I got from you Mark in two races so far.
> All came home on the first race but didnt place.
> Last race only 3 made it back.
> The BC (I cant remember the number right now...) didnt make it back yet.
> They are doing fine though and I think they will soon be coming home faster.
> Its only been two races


Hi Ed,

Thanks for the report. Remember, three of the birds I sent you were long distance birds. I would look for those birds to come in better for you about their third year. The BC was bred for middle distance and the BB is speed.

How has the BB come in compaired to your other birds? 

Ace


----------



## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just got an update from Steve in ABQ. He has had the birds out to 50 miles a few times. He will get them to about 80 before the first race in two weeks. He said he still has the three Silvers and about 30 birds in the loft. After his initial six he lost he is only down a couple of birds. A good number to manage. The are finishing up a body molt so hopefully them will be ready to go. I will keep you informed.
> 
> Randy


I am looking forward to seeing how these birds fly for him as well as how they fly in your area.

Ace


----------



## Ed

ace in the hole said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> Thanks for the report. Remember, three of the birds I sent you were long distance birds. I would look for those birds to come in better for you about their third year. The BC was bred for middle distance and the BB is speed.
> 
> How has the BB come in compaired to your other birds?
> 
> Ace


Out of 507 Birds
200 mile race


----------



## Southwing

Hello, Ace 

Can you tell me about the bird 7743 she has been coming home 10 min before the rest for the last 3 trainings. 

Thanks, Southwing


----------



## ace in the hole

Southwing said:


> Hello, Ace
> 
> Can you tell me about the bird 7743 she has been coming home 10 min before the rest for the last 3 trainings.
> 
> Thanks, Southwing


That birds father is of Janssen blood and has a full sister that was a combine winner in the chicago area. 7743's mother is from the Haverneth line. I do not know her background other than that. The BC Ed lost a week or two ago was the nest mate to this bird.

Please keep me informed here as the training and races go on. How many of my birds do you have left? What are thier band #s.

Ace


----------



## Southwing

Hello, Ace 

This is what I have

7711
7709
7713
7715
7743

I have been training 6 days a week for about 3 weeks. They are to the point were they love to go inside the create because they know that they will be racing home. I am only out about 50 miles but have time the first race is not until Oct 3. Some of the other members that live in the same line of flight have been training together. They have already made it out to 100 mile mark. So I've got my work cut out for me. I will keep you updated on training and the races.

Southwing


----------



## Lovebirds

Now that dove season is into it's second week, we took the birds this morning 35 miles. We've been training from the ENE, but we took them North this morning. 
2 groups. Released 10 minutes apart. Neither group circled a single time. They came out of the basket and headed out. The first group headed in the right direction and all but 1 of them was home we we got home. The missing one is 9194. It's been 1 1/2 hours now, and she hasn't shown up yet. I"ll keep ya posted.
The second group headed in the wrong direction and were about 10 minutes longer flying than they should have been, but all made it home except 3. One of those just came in about 5 minutes ago. Still waiting on the other two.


----------



## Lovebirds

9194 came in about 1:00 PM. That's 3 1/2 hours after liftoff............LOL.....you think she's flying just because??? I don't know what to think. I just know she's late on every training toss BUT she comes home alone. Things that make ya go UMMMM.........


----------



## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> 9194 came in about 1:00 PM. That's 3 1/2 hours after liftoff............LOL.....*you think she's flying just because??? *I don't know what to think. I just know she's late on every training toss BUT she comes home alone. Things that make ya go UMMMM.........


I think that is what is happening. If it were me I would single toss her at 75 miles or more to teach her to come home.

Ace


----------



## Southwing

Hello, 

Had birds come back scattered today from 60 miles. Had 3 in the loft when I got home. Then some singles and a group of ten about fifteen min after that. Then most came back within 2 hrs. But had 3 come back really late today. At the end of the day they all came home, will rest on Tues train on Wed. Their was 4 other racers out training today in the same direction. I also have been seeing a lot of hawks not at my loft, Knock on wood. Oct 3rd is getting closer, RACE DAY


----------



## Lovebirds

Had the birds out again this AM. They flew 40 miles in 54 minutes. Not bad. Missing three. 9194 (again), 9196 who has never been late and my bird that spent 10 days 20 miles from here before it came home. The lady where the bird was just called. Guess what? Yep, his dumb butt went right back over there. I told her don't feed him. Let's see if he'll come home in less than 10 days this time. 
I won't go back over there and try to get him to come home again. I know now that HE knows HOW to get home AND he went back to this house after we took the birds in a totally opposite direction this morning. If he can find HER house and can't find MY house, then I don't know.........


----------



## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> Had the birds out again this AM. They flew 40 miles in 54 minutes. Not bad. Missing three. 9194 (again), 9196 who has never been late and my bird that spent 10 days 20 miles from here before it came home. The lady where the bird was just called. Guess what? Yep, his dumb butt went right back over there. I told her don't feed him. Let's see if he'll come home in less than 10 days this time.
> I won't go back over there and try to get him to come home again. I know now that HE knows HOW to get home AND he went back to this house after we took the birds in a totally opposite direction this morning. If he can find HER house and can't find MY house, then I don't know.........


I said 9196 had never been late. I was wrong about that. He was in that group of 20 that got turned around a few weeks ago, but came in early the next morning. So, maybe he'll show up tomorrow. None of the three came home today though.


----------



## Lovebirds

9194 and 9196 came in together this morning about 8:30.


----------



## hillfamilyloft

First race is this weekend. I bonded 22 birds for the 300 for $2.50. If they are around at basketing I will pay the other $7.50 to enter them into the race. 8 of them are Ace Birds, 14 are mine. I will keep the post posted on the results. If you want to follow the races they are posted at loslobosrpc.com or on the AU web page. They have been trained out to 80 miles. They have been beating Steve back to the loft. They are still a bit in the molt, but are flying well. 

I should have about 20 other birds in the races this year. I will have my results on my webpage or at the fore mentioned sites. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

Just a quick report on some of my other young birds that are racing this year. Lee Scholtz of the Frankenmuth Racing Pigeon Club has a pair of siblings to Renee's 9198. FM 7769 has been his first bird home in the races three times now. A few weeks ago it was on the drop with another bird taking second place, trapping .02 behind his other bird. 7768 has also been his first bird home on one race so far.

Walt Trikle has had one of my birds (FM 7716) take a first place in his club.

Really looking forward to further reports from you all.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Ace

Just wanted to inform you that Steve only sent half the team to the first race, 15 birds. They have been having weather issues for the last few days and they encountered rain during the trainning toss today. He chose the best looking birds by form and molt to send. I will keep you informend on which ones were yours. They are releasing at 7:00 am. Last count was 330 birds, the race is from 100 miles. Not everyone sent to the first race and not everyone shipped their limit. I trust Steve knows what he is doing. My thoughts are that he is setting them up for the money race of 300. He mentioned that ours flet the best out of all that he helped basket today. I will keep you posted. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

The ABQ race was quite competitive with the long enders winning the thing. There were 334 birds from 100 miles. Steve's first bird was 64th 8 minutes out, FM 7792 out of your young Kona pair. His second bird was one of your Silver birds FM 7734 at 86th 11 minutes out. 

Other notables: Vern's bird LL 608 was 6th, and one of mine flown by John McCullough LL 696 was 10th 1:44 out. Both Vern and my bird were down from the same Engels stock that did well at the shorter races at the Spirit of Co. Race. Also off a brother of Freddy that bred well for you in Michigan. 

Steve will be sending a full 25 to the 125 Saturday weather permitting . I might go for the liberation. 

Randy


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## Southwing

Hello,

Training has been hit and mis with the storms. I will be training in the morning 65 miles. And I think that some of us are getting together this weekened to have a release together before the race next week. I have one more bird to add to the #s 7707 so I still have them all. 

Southwing


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## ace in the hole

Southwing said:


> Hello,
> 
> Training has been hit and mis with the storms. I will be training in the morning 65 miles. And I think that some of us are getting together this weekened to have a release together before the race next week. I have one more bird to add to the #s 7707 so *I still have them all. *Southwing


That is good news in itself, to have them out that far without loosing a bird. You must also be doing a good job with your training methods.

Keep up the good work,

Ace


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## Lovebirds

Not looking good this week end weather wise. Rain in the afternoon, so of course OUR birds would probably be fine since they aren't flying far, but the guys down in NC and SC might be in trouble. We'll see if the race is shipped. I "suspect" a Sat. ship for a Sun. release, but with this crew, who the heck knows WHAT they'll do???


----------



## Lovebirds

Tonight's shipping has been postponed. Possibly will ship tomorrow night, but won't know until tonight or early tomorrow.


----------



## Ed

Same here 
We might ship tomorrow night or Sunday night.
I hope its not Sunday.


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## hillfamilyloft

We flew the second race today from 125 miles. They are clocking in Sunday. The speeds are around 1500 ypm. Steve had 22 out of 25 home as of 2:00pm. All three silvers are in. His first bird was out of mine. I will keep you posted on how they did. I also handled all 45 of my young birds last night. The two Silvers are by far the largest birds. I did also notice one little hen out of your (Ace's) stock was by far the most boyant out of the bunch. She was solid as a rock and light as a feather. I am settling all of them to the new loft and getting them trap trained. They are a bit old and I want to make sure they like home. Getting a late start, but I have been really busy. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

Our whole week end has been postponed. 
ACE?? Everett said to ask you if these birds are "winter weather" birds??? If you don't miss any other week ends, our last race will be the week end before Thanksgiving. 
Rediculous...........
The average temp here in Oct is 60 to 70 during the day and 40 to 50 at night.
In Nov. it's 60 to 70 during the day and 30 to 40 at night. IMHO, 40 degrees is pretty darn cold to be traveling down the highway at 65 MPH all night.


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## hillfamilyloft

For those interested in the level of competition that ACE and I are flying against in ABQ, ABQ's own John Gutierrez won the 2008 Mega Classic in San Diego. He is always at the top of the race sheets. He had 17 on the drop in our first race all were in the top 10%. He was on the back of the RPD this month. He has some great birds. 

Randy


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## whitesnmore

Lovebirds said:


> Our whole week end has been postponed.
> ACE?? Everett said to ask you if these birds are "winter weather" birds??? If you don't miss any other week ends, our last race will be the week end before Thanksgiving.
> Rediculous...........
> The average temp here in Oct is 60 to 70 during the day and 40 to 50 at night.
> In Nov. it's 60 to 70 during the day and 30 to 40 at night. IMHO, 40 degrees is pretty darn cold to be traveling down the highway at 65 MPH all night.


Welcome to my world. We have had these cold temps all the time in YB and OB every year. It is really hard to keep the birds in form with those low temps. Just make sure the birds aren't molting when you send them and they should do fine.


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> Our whole week end has been postponed.
> ACE?? Everett said to ask you if these birds are "winter weather" birds??? If you don't miss any other week ends, our last race will be the week end before Thanksgiving.
> Rediculous...........
> The average temp here in Oct is 60 to 70 during the day and 40 to 50 at night.
> In Nov. it's 60 to 70 during the day and 30 to 40 at night. IMHO, 40 degrees is pretty darn cold to be traveling down the highway at 65 MPH all night.


These birds were flying in cool weather last year and did great. As Ken said just make sure they aren't to far in the moult to make the race.

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Steve is dealing with the molt right now with our ABQ birds. We have had a cold snap that has done crazy things with them. His loft also faces south and is up against a building. It stays quite warm. I am not sure, but I think he was using a bit of light in the AM. Hopefully by the money race they will be completely through it. You do not want porcupine heads when you ship to races, but that is what he has right now. I will get the results to see how individual birds are doing sometime today. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> These birds were flying in cool weather last year and did great. As Ken said just make sure they aren't to far in the moult to make the race.
> 
> Ace


Well, all of my birds are pretty much done molting. Maybe it's ME that I'm worried about, having to go ship at 11:00 PM until possibly 1:00 AM in the morning waiting for the trailer..........LOL...


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace 
I got the chip bands on birds this week. They went 60 miles today. This is what my top ten in the loft came in. Went up at 7:45 first bird clocked in at 9:04 :45 I was not home to see what went on at home I was at work. 79 min= 1336ypm
Top 10 birds 
9820
7715
9175
14957
9811
9185
7707
14954
7713
7743
Will be going 65 miles tomorrow over the lake in a different location.


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## hillfamilyloft

Well I do not know what to say. ACE's birds whooped me this weekend. The race was 125 miles with 352 birds. One positive is that my birds do not traditionally do well at the super sprints, the 100 and the 125. Next week will be from 150. ACE had four birds at the end of the top 10%. His birds were also the first to the loft. Not bad for a bunch of birds missing most of their feathers. I expect the loft to get stronger as they go. Adding the bloodline should help this weakness in my birds. Vern's 608 was 11th and 8th last. Keep in mind that the 36th bird was 5 minutes to win and that the 100th bird was 7:37 seconds from the win. 200 birds clocked within 20 minutes of the win. 8 lofts were in the top 10%. These are competitive races. 

27th FM 1132 1st to loft
29th FM 7791 3rd to loft
35th FM 7795 7th to loft
36th FM 7734 8th to loft

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Ok I am a not so smart behind. I was searching for the wrong band numbers thinking that my birds were inferior. Here is how both ACE and I did in the race. Makes me feel much better. Steve had 8 birds in the top 10%. Four were Ace's and Three were mine.

27th FM 7732 1452ypm
28th LL 348 1452ypm
29th FM 7791 1451ypm
30th LL 344 1448ypm
34th LL 337 1447ypm
35th FM 7795 1446ypm
36th FM 7734 1441ypm
57th LL 699 1432ypm
64th LL 338 1431ypm


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> Ok I am a not so smart behind. I was searching for the wrong band numbers thinking that my birds were inferior. Here is how both ACE and I did in the race. Makes me feel much better. Steve had 8 birds in the top 10%. Four were Ace's and Three were mine.
> 
> 27th FM 7732 1452ypm
> 28th LL 348 1452ypm
> 29th FM 7791 1451ypm
> 30th LL 344 1448ypm
> 34th LL 337 1447ypm
> 35th FM 7795 1446ypm
> 36th FM 7734 1441ypm
> 57th LL 699 1432ypm
> 64th LL 338 1431ypm


Hey, I'm very happy with that. As I said before, I look at each race from each of you that has my birds as a one loft race. 

Randy, seeing how I have told everyone on here that you have my three best pairs, it wouldn't say much for my birds or my breeding program if they weren't someware near his first bird in.

Thanks for the report,

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft

Your top birds were represented by all three pairs. Sometimes I think a guy or gal would be better off doing what Ludo did. Take your best pairs and only carry your loft on with them. Two of my top birds were off Buzz. Exactly what I expect in the races. After about three years you can have a loft that only reflects your best pairs. I have 15 pairs right now. I am looking to cut down to 10 and use offspring off the best to bring in a few new pairs. Keep the loft young is also a positive. 

Randy


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## SmithFamilyLoft

hillfamilyloft said:


> Your top birds were represented by all three pairs. Sometimes I think a guy or gal would be better off doing what Ludo did. Take your best pairs and only carry your loft on with them. Two of my top birds were off Buzz. Exactly what I expect in the races. After about three years you can have a loft that only reflects your best pairs. I have 15 pairs right now. I am looking to cut down to 10 and use offspring off the best to bring in a few new pairs. Keep the loft young is also a positive.
> 
> Randy


Hello Randy,

I think you are onto something. I suspect in a typical fanciers loft, of say 100 pigeons, there may only be 2 or 3 really great or "good" pigeons, and the rest fall in line ranked from #1 pigeon, #2 pigeon...#3....to #100. Most would likely benifit from selling or giving away all but their 3 very best pairs and starting over. Because over the years, too much space has been set aside, in the hope that some of them will finally prove the owner right, and produce something special. I don't know exactly where I picked up the 80/20 rule, it applies to much more then pigeons, but bear with me, if the readers have heard this 20 times before and are sick of hearing me saying it. About 20% or so of your breeders end up producing 80% of your winners. Depending on the maturity of your colony, and your level of progression. 80% of your breeders only produce 20% of your winners. I don't think it is rocket science.....sell or help a new person out with some of those in the 80% group, and replace them with promising offspring from the 20% group, or bring in some great outside bird and cross with one of your 20% group. 

I think Ludo provided a very keen insight into his success. He only kept about 60 birds over the winter. He did not produce birds for the "commerical market". He was simply in a great position to be able to sell his "culls" for many thousands of Euros. He only kept the very best of what he owned, and turned over his generations. Imagine at his level of the sport, how difficult that must have been. He would sometimes have to part with super crack champions and ace pigeons, to make room for pigeons which were hopefully even better. 

You are on the right track, both you and Ace. And IMHO, the only way you will produce better birds in the future, is if you retain or acquire better birds going forward. By that I mean, if you keep every breeder you now own, and add nothing.....why would Mother Nature 5,6,7..8 years from now, produce anything better then what you do right now ? She won't.....that is the plain simple truth. Some fanciers do the same thing, year in and year out, and wonder why nothing changes. Ludo understood, selective pressure on the colony, most fanciers are unwilling or unable to advance with each generation. And that is why most of us will turn out fairly average.


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## hillfamilyloft

Also just found out today that the second place bird in the race is one of Vern's. The band was written down as an ABQ instead of an LL band. Not bad having one in the top 10 last week and two this week. Keep in mind Vern only sent 10 birds down to fly.


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## hillfamilyloft

ace in the hole said:


> Hey, I'm very happy with that. As I said before, I look at each race from each of you that has my birds as a one loft race.
> 
> Randy, seeing how I have told everyone on here that you have my three best pairs, it wouldn't say much for my birds or my breeding program if they weren't someware near his first bird in.
> 
> Thanks for the report,
> 
> Ace


One other observation. All 8 birds went to the race and all 8 returned. Not bad having 50% of your birds in the top 10% of the race. Also still 8/10 original birds sent still flying after training and two races. Like they say. You can't win if the birds do not make it to the race. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Those Lovebirds gonna race this season?


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## Guest

what ever happened to tippler beni ,wasnt he gonna race some of aces birds too ???


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## Lovebirds

hillfamilyloft said:


> Those Lovebirds gonna race this season?


Yea, we're FINALLY going to ship our first race tonight.............I haven't even decided which birds I'm sending yet. 
I had thought I'd send 9194, but her cock is driving her hard and I'm afraid she's about to lay an egg, so that's out. 
I was just out in the loft watching the birds and I've already got 8 out of 14 hens sitting on dummy eggs and the cocks are chasing the heck out of the others, so I may just ship cocks tonight. 
Anyway.....we'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. The race is around 120 miles for me.


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace 

We had are first race today. it was a slow race no wind but a nice day.
We clock out tomorrow but I have to work so I will not know how my birds did until i get off work.

7743 was my first bird back for me about 11min before the next. it was only 108 mils for me but i am off the path of most of the fliers. 7743 flew about 1403 YPM

Southwing


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## Lovebirds

Southwing said:


> Hello, Ace
> 
> We had are first race today. it was a slow race no wind but a nice day.
> We clock out tomorrow but I have to work so I will not know how my birds did until i get off work.
> 
> 7743 was my first bird back for me about 11min before the next. it was only 108 mils for me but i am off the path of most of the fliers. 7743 flew about 1403 YPM
> 
> Southwing


sounds like a good speed to me! we don't see those kind of speeds around here very often. 1200's is about the norm for our combine.


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## Southwing

Hello, lovebirds

how close are you to Favonia VA that is the spot for are 300 mile race?

Southwing


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## hillfamilyloft

Third Race today was from Kirtland NM, 150 miles 364 birds. We had a good showing. 4 Birds in the top 10%, 7 more top 20%. Birds numbers and places are as follows.
Top 10%
3rd LL 330 1365 ypm
4th FM 7796 1361 ypm
5th LL 338 1330 ypm
28th FM 7732 1328 ypm
Top 20%
45th FM 7791 1305 ypm
46th LL 348 1304 ypm
47th FM 7734 1303 ypm
50th LL 341 1298 ypm
60th LL 351 1292 ypm
73rd LL 344 1277 ypm
74th FM 7731 1277 ypm

We were beat by Ken Easley who pulled the race. Ken is a great and honest guy who has some top notch birds. He has some Koopmans and Marcel Sangers imports. Steve did something right this week and the birds are getting more feathers and getting into better form. 330 and 7796 flew a great race. They should do well next weekend at 200.

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

The Hill birds and Ace birds have both had 6 top 10% finishes so far in three races. FM 7732 has had two out of three. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

LL 338 was 15th not 5th. For those who do not know the FM bands are ACE's birds the LL birds are Hill Family Birds. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds

Southwing said:


> Hello, lovebirds
> 
> how close are you to Favonia VA that is the spot for are 300 mile race?
> 
> Southwing


Man, that's in the mountains! It's about 100 miles west and a bit north of us.


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## Lovebirds

For once, I made a good decision. LOL
I only shipped 6 birds in yesterdays race and didn't send ANY of your birds. I only got 1 bird home all day. One is in a loft south of me and will be released to come home. It was a really BAD race for some and other did pretty darn good. I fall in the "BAD" catagory...........thankfully I was smart enough to not empty out my loft on what I figured to be a bad day.
Don't know what I'lll do next week...........stay tuned..........LOL


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## ace in the hole

Lovebirds said:


> For once, I made a good decision. LOL
> I only shipped 6 birds in yesterdays race and didn't send ANY of your birds. I only got 1 bird home all day. One is in a loft south of me and will be released to come home. It was a really BAD race for some and other did pretty darn good. I fall in the "BAD" catagory...........thankfully I was smart enough to not empty out my loft on what I figured to be a bad day.
> Don't know what I'lll do next week...........stay tuned..........LOL


I knew it would be hard on them having so much drag south on their first race. How many of them have made it back?

Ace


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## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> I knew it would be hard on them having so much drag south on their first race. How many of them have made it back?
> 
> Ace


Been gone all day and just saw your post.
I only got the one day bird, two came in the next morning and I haven't seen a feather since. I know where one bird is and it should be released tomorrow to come home. Assuming it makes it, I will have lost 2 out of 6 on this first race. 
Some combine members sent the max (24 birds) and didn't see a single bird and still haven't seen one. Others shipped the max and got every single bird back. 
Kinda weird............
We've had rain all week, so no training. We were supposed to take them tomorrow morning, but just got a call that my grandmother has been rushed to the hospital. I've been with her all day and had just pulled into the driveway at home when I got the call, so now it's all up in the air.........


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## MaryOfExeter

I shipped the max and only have two birds home, one of which Renee had to pass along to me. Another member in my club sent the max and hasn't seen a single bird at all. I'm thinking there's a good chance a lot of birds were lost because of the pull West, and if they kept flying west, the weather got worse and so did the terrain. But ya never know what happened, just that something DID happen.


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## Lovebirds

Took the birds this morning. All were home when we got here plus the one that was released down in NC.
Weather is looking REAL iffy for this week end. 
We don't NEED to miss another week end, but we also don't NEED to loose the rest of our birds and if they get shipped this week end and the weather does what "they" say it's going to do.........well, there goes some more birds. 
Long range forecast (I know, it COULD change) is, rain Sat, Sun and Mon. Sunny Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Fri. RAIN Sat. (that's NEXT week end).......it will be a small miracle if we finish this season with any birds and before the new year comes in........
Those two weeks that we could have flown on Sunday are looking better and better...........
PS: I wound up loosing 2 birds this past week end. That's 2 out of 6.


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## Lovebirds

Shipping our race has been postponed until at least tomorrow. We're all watching the weather for a Sunday race. It looks so so right now. Tomorrow probably isn't going to be a wash out by any means, but there is a system coming through and it most likely will hit the eastern states at the time the birds would be flying home and that's no good.
We'll see what happens tomorrow as far as shipping.


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## hillfamilyloft

The birds fell off a little bit this week in the Cortez Co 200 mile race. I did hit with my 200-250 mile family taking 3rd and 4th from birds off of brothers. This family loves this distance. There other brother bred last years 200 mile winner for Gary Miller. The race was hot for this time a year and some of the birds came in with mud on their feet. They stopped for water somewhere. Not much water in the desert. One of the Silver birds was Steve's Second bird in. 

Steve is going to keep a few birds back next week to hold a few over for the 300 mile futurity. My thought are to split the siblings up, keeping one back and flying the other. As of 7PM he was still a few birds short. I will keep you posted of the inventory that are not on the race sheets. The race is posted at: www.loslobosrpc.com

Randy


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## Lovebirds

We shipped our race last night.
9194 and 9196 are in the B race. Don't know release time or distance yet. Should be around 135 miles or so. 
Will update later.


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## Lovebirds

*Update*

Sent 10 birds. 4 in the A race. 6 in the B race.
As of now (5:00 PM) I have 2 B birds and 1 A bird. 9194 or 9196 haven't come home, as well as 5 other birds.
First bird home was a B bird and is the same bird that came in first last week except this week he bettered his YPM by about 300.........
Actually haven't had a bird come in since around 12:00 so I really don't expect to see any more tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Don't know how anybody else did so have nothing to compare my birds too. 

PS: The race was 132 miles this week. 6 miles longer than last week.


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## Lovebirds

It's o'dark30 here........LOL.........2 more birds showed up. 1 A and 1 B. 9194 and 9196 didn't make the day trip. We'll see what happens tomorrow.


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## Lovebirds

yesterday was a really bad day for birds to try to make it home. Rain over the state of NC and northern SC. IF the lost birds went south, they weren't coming home.
Today has been a pretty day. Foggy this AM but after the fog lifted, the sun came out.
I fully expected to see at least a couple of birds come in, but so far, nothing. 
This means I'm missng 4 out of 10 from the week end. 9194 and 9196 are 2 of the 4.


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## mr squeaks

I am really so sad to hear about your lost(?) birds, Renee!! 

I SO hope they make it home!! Sending wind under their wings and HOMING thoughts!! 

With Love and Hugs!

Also, how is your grandmother??

Shi


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace we did not ship last week because of weather. Took birds out Sunday 50 miles and 60 today maybe Thursday depending on weather. Rain all day tomorrow its been rain every other day.

Southwing


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## Lovebirds

ACE? I see that you were on line this AM. Finding it very curious that you haven't commented on anything in a week?


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## ace in the hole

I have just been keeping an eye on the thread hopping and waiting for a post saying they have returned. We knew most of the drag was going to be to the south and hard on birds for their first race. Just crossing my fingers and hopping for the best (their return).

Ace


----------



## Lovebirds

ace in the hole said:


> I have just been keeping an eye on the thread hopping and waiting for a post saying they have returned. We knew most of the drag was going to be to the south and hard on birds for their first race. Just crossing my fingers and hopping for the best (their return).
> 
> Ace


The first race was a toss up. Birds being drug to the south OR west. But on the second race, the drag wasn't as bad. That's why I decided to send them.
In fact, sent more birds than in the first race. I remember at some point a few months ago, getting a schedule for one of the clubs up north. Can't remember which club or where I got it. I seem to remember that their race stations and ours were going to clash at some point. Now that we started two weeks later than we were supposed to, I think that might be having a effect and will continue to do so. One of our members got 3 different stray birds in his loft this week end from up north. Some of our birds are winding up, up north and the weather stinks so bad that it's hard for the birds to make it home. It has poured rain here all day and is supposed to rain every day till Saturday.


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## hillfamilyloft

I think Steve will be sending a partial team this week to the 250 mile race. He is saving some of the birds for the 300 futurity. I think he wants to win this race. I will bond what is left over. After 4 races I have the second points bird and Vern has the first. The birds are from the same family. I am anxious to see how the ACE birds do at the 300 mile race. I will get an inventory from Steve this week. 

Randy


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## ace in the hole

hillfamilyloft said:


> I think Steve will be sending a partial team this week to the 250 mile race. He is saving some of the birds for the 300 futurity. I think he wants to win this race. I will bond what is left over. After 4 races I have the second points bird and Vern has the first. The birds are from the same family. I am anxious to see how the ACE birds do at the 300 mile race. *I will get an inventory from Steve this week. *Randy


Yes, I would like to know if they are all still there. I know they didn't all make it in the clock last week.

Hope your's and Vern's birds keep it up....

Ace


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## Lovebirds

This YB season is turning into one big disaster. 
First of all, we were SUPPOSED to start racing on 9/12. Some of the members then decided, after years of starting on the same weekend, that it would be wise to delay the start of racing for 2 weeks because of dove season. So, that put us starting on 9/26. Then the first week end was totally postponed because of weather. So, THEN, we finally got started on 10/4. First two weeks races had to be flown on Sunday because of weather. Now this week end, the forecast is for rain, snow and freezing temps at the release station. It's looking quite possible that this whole week end could be postponed. Barring any more delays, we won't finish our YB season until 11/28. 
One more bad week end and we're into December flying birds.


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## Ed

Yeah...
I dont think we will be flying this weekend either 
Bad weather all the way back for them.
We MIGHT ship Saturday night or Sunday night if the weather gets any better.
Might be Sunday night as its supposed to get nice on Monday.


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## Lovebirds

Ed said:


> Yeah...
> I dont think we will be flying this weekend either
> Bad weather all the way back for them.
> We MIGHT ship Saturday night or Sunday night if the weather gets any better.
> Might be Sunday night as its supposed to get nice on Monday.


Where are you flying from? I think a couple of you guys birds wound up down here last week end.


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## Southwing

We will racing on Saturday, the weather will be partly cloudy winds out of the north at 8-13 mph. I would like for the winds to be out of the NE so that that my birds would stay on the west side of the lake. 

I have lost 7743 he was my first bird back on the last race 11 min before any of my birds. He was lost last Thursday on a training toss at 60 miles. Same breaking point they have been at least 20 times before so I'm guessing he will not be coming home. Man that makes me mad.


----------



## Lovebirds

Our whole week end was postponed due to weather. 
Now, we'll be flying the week end of Thanksgiving. Fun Fun.........


----------



## spirit wings

Lovebirds said:


> Our whole week end was postponed due to weather.
> Now, we'll be flying the week end of Thanksgiving. Fun Fun.........


well, nothing like eating leftover stuffing and watching for birds to trap...


----------



## Southwing

Hello, 150 mile race was delayed until Sunday due to rain. Sunday was nice 50s sunny and 10-20 winds and of course out of the NW. I believe that I might not win race unless the winds are out of the NE, which they are all week until the weekend.

The bird that won from another loft was YPM 1642 
I was 8 min out with 1557 YPM

Try again this week


----------



## Lovebirds

Southwing said:


> Hello, 150 mile race was delayed until Sunday due to rain. Sunday was nice 50s sunny and 10-20 winds and of course out of the NW. I believe that I might not win race unless the winds are out of the NE, which they are all week until the weekend.
> 
> The bird that won from another loft was YPM 1642
> I was 8 min out with 1557 YPM
> 
> Try again this week


Where do you guys fly from? What direction?


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## Southwing

The club is the Charleston Racing Club we race YB up Interstate 26 past columbia,SC to Iterstate 77. We race out to 300 miles in VA. We race Old birds toward GA, and meet up with the combine.


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## Ed

Lovebirds said:


> Where are you flying from? I think a couple of you guys birds wound up down here last week end.


Bristol, TN


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## Southwing

Hello, Its mine turn to take birds out this week, so i will not be able to watch them come home. We are shipping on Saturday night and releasing on Sunday. I will be traveling to Troutman NC , 200 miles

Southwing


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## Lovebirds

We're shipping our race tonight. It's from Madison, VA. Should be around 145 to 150 for me. Every bird in my loft is going. 22 total. We'll see what happens. That includes the two I have left of your Ace. I won't be listing any bird band numbers from here on out.


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## Lovebirds

Lovebirds said:


> We're shipping our race tonight. It's from Madison, VA. Should be around 145 to 150 for me. Every bird in my loft is going. 22 total. We'll see what happens. That includes the two I have left of your Ace. I won't be listing any bird band numbers from here on out.


It's 1:00. I've got a few birds home. Your 2 haven't shown up yet. I'll let you know later after it gets dark what's what. Race was 144 miles. My first bird in each race flew in pretty good time. Doubt it's good enough to win, but I'm satisfied.


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## windyflat

Is that a make up race? Kinda late in the season. Of course you folks may start a bit later than us....
Tom


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## Lovebirds

windyflat said:


> Is that a make up race? Kinda late in the season. Of course you folks may start a bit later than us....
> Tom


No not a make up race and YES, you are correct. It is WAY LATE in the season. Long story. This is just our 3rd race. We've got 5 more to go.


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## Southwing

Well, I won my first YB race today it's a 200 mile race and i am setting at 187 miles winds were out of NE at about 5-8mph.
RACE 1
I took 1st with 1584ypm and the 2nd 1583ypm 9 sec in between. The next club bird was out 6 min.

RACE 2
I took 5th and 6th at 1459 ypm and out 2:53 min from first.

Thanks Southwing


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## windyflat

Congrats Southwing!!!
We don't see speeds much over 1350 here in upstate NY. cant imagine speeds that fast! great job!
Tom


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## Lovebirds

Ended the day with 14 out of 22 birds. Your two Ace, didn't come in. Hoping the rest show up tomorrow. Today was one of THE best race days weather wise that we've had in a while. Nice and cool, light tailwind, sun and clouds. Just don't get very many perfect days like this.


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## ace in the hole

Southwing said:


> Well, I won my first YB race today it's a 200 mile race and i am setting at 187 miles winds were out of NE at about 5-8mph.
> RACE 1
> I took 1st with 1584ypm and the 2nd 1583ypm 9 sec in between. The next club bird was out 6 min.
> 
> RACE 2
> I took 5th and 6th at 1459 ypm and out 2:53 min from first.
> 
> Thanks Southwing


Great job!

You're doing something right.

Ace


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Southwing said:


> Well, I won my first YB race today it's a 200 mile race and i am setting at 187 miles winds were out of NE at about 5-8mph.
> RACE 1
> I took 1st with 1584ypm and the 2nd 1583ypm 9 sec in between. The next club bird was out 6 min.
> 
> RACE 2
> I took 5th and 6th at 1459 ypm and out 2:53 min from first.
> 
> Thanks Southwing



*YaHoo !!! Congrats !!!*


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## hillfamilyloft

Well we had the 300 mile race this weekend in ABQ. Speeds were fast at 1600 ypm. First bird in was LL 330 at 19th. 10/13 were home on the day. Not as good as I had hoped. 

The good news is that LL 330 is after 5 races winning high points bird. He has had a 3rd, 4th and 19 place finish in five races. FM 7732 finished the race. I am not sure how many FM birds were sent and which ones returned. I will find out soon.

Like the majority of what I have heard, we are also having a difficult season. The 300 was an exception with little losses and fast speeds. 

Randy


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## Bluecheckard

Southwing said:


> Well, I won my first YB race today it's a 200 mile race and i am setting at 187 miles winds were out of NE at about 5-8mph.
> RACE 1
> I took 1st with 1584ypm and the 2nd 1583ypm 9 sec in between. The next club bird was out 6 min.
> 
> RACE 2
> I took 5th and 6th at 1459 ypm and out 2:53 min from first.
> 
> Thanks Southwing



Congrats for the job well done.... keep on winning those birds....


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace found one of your ex-pigeons for sale on pigeon4sale what can you tell us about it if anything. 

http://www.pigeons4sale.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=Prison&item=1256918425

Thanks


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## Guest

thats a very nice looking bird hope to hear more on it


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## hillfamilyloft

Good to see my birds can get $60. The bird is related to my bird that at current is hight points bird in our club with a 3rd, 4th and 19th in five races. The notables in the ped are Doo Drop 140. A true full Janssen bird off of four direct Janssen birds. The bird is strong Vic Miller blood also. Vic Miller's David's Perfection you see in the ped was first combine at both 400 and 500 against over 1000 birds. This bloodline has one numerous races for me in the 200-300 mile range. Tippy has bred consistent top 10% birds for me. This pair bred one of my best bird last year. For under $100 bucks the bird is a good buy. IHC 7090 was purchase from the Vegas Race Auction for $1500. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

Just a question, isn't this MBS sell page? Is the sale even legitimate? Chime in here and let me know. If so I will follow up with getting the bird off the page. I do feel honored if so that MBS would think my birds worthy of scamming someone with. Ha Ha.

Randy


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## Southwing

I think that it is pigeons4sale.com, MBS just has advertsing on the site but i i'm not sure.


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## ace in the hole

This bird was sold to Brian Lord ( Timberlofts ) with the complete understanding the only way I would sell him these birds was if he would breed me one pair of young in the spring of 2010. 

Ace


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## Timber

ace in the hole said:


> This bird was sold to Brian Lord ( Timberlofts ) with the complete understanding the only way I would sell him these birds was if he would breed me one pair of young in the spring of 2010. He is an A**. He is not to be trusted.
> 
> Ace


Mark,

Before you continue to slam me on here and through your "kind-hearted" voice mails at 745 am, let me clear things up for you. Yes, we had an agreement that if I purchased the pair, I would breed you a round of youngsters from them. After much debate, I desided that this particular cock is extra, especially seeing that I already have the blood closer up then himself and have proven themselves better on the race course then he did. I DID BREED them, and have a set of eggs under fosters which WILL HONOR our agreement! I purchased this pair, therefore I can deside who stays or goes but never did I have the intentions of not raising you a set of youngsters. Once they hatch out and are weaned, I will send them to you as agreed. If this is not exceptable to you, then Im sorry. 

Randy,

Yes, I do believe that MBS still has a hand in pigeons4sale.com but I have never had an issue with not recieving payments after the sale. I too have been scammed by him for direct purchases of birds, but never through the auction site. The bloodline of this bird is solid, but I already have enough WONDER cocks in the stock loft. 

To ALL,

I love the site and love the connections our pigeons provide us. But lets face the facts that some of "us" feel that our birds are superior. This is not to say that they are not but by who's standard? Through the race results or our emotions? If the bird does not give results either as a breeder or racer then its only and "average" pigeon. The pedigree does nothing for it other then to say this is my family. The bird has to prove itself, not the paperwork it comes with. Stop fooling yourself into thinking that your bird is worth $100 or more if it has only performed "average" work. In this sport as competitive fliers, each of us should be trying to improve our results each year. If we continue to breed from "average" pigeons, then we will only have "average" results. At some point we also have to choose who stays and who goes, its a choice only YOU can make. In closing, my comments are not directed at any one person and it was not my intended to be disrespectful to anyone. You have to choose a group to belong to, a hobbiest or competitive flier? I think some of "us" combine the two and our feelings get in the way of progress.


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## Skyeking

I'm sorry to hear about your disagreement/misunderstanding but you need to work this out among yourselves in private.

Thank you


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## ace in the hole

There was no misunderstanding. *The deal was for two 2010 early spring young from this pair.* He has still not called me, PMed, or emailed me!

Ace


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## Timber

ace in the hole said:


> There was no misunderstanding. *The deal was for two 2010 early spring young from this pair.* He has still not called me, PMed, or emailed me!
> 
> Ace


Why should I call you? Obviously you are angry about this still and frankly, Im not into listening to you badger me over the phone, not by your words but by your tone. Your messages on my phone was all I needed to hear. He no longer is owned by you and again I have chosen to sell him. You also stated that you could not fly competitively as there are no clubs in your area, and you wanted them for stock. Once they develope and are ready, they will be sent to you, to do what ever you wish with them. I think its crazy that you are pissed at someone to whome you sold birds to, if they choose to sell them or give them away if they no longer need them.


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## Big T

Trees Gray said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your disagreement/misunderstanding but you need to work this out among yourselves in private.
> 
> Thank you


Ace, I like you, always have. In Timber's defense, he and I have done some bird swapping in the past and like he said once the birds were his they are his to do as he wishes. But he has always honored his agreements with me, even if he did sell the birds I gave him right after getting them. Now, did you assume the young would be 2010,but did not state it? Because we all know late born 2009 young basicly cannot race until 2011 because they are too young for the old bird races and born too earily for the young bird races. So I understand both of your points of view, but like Trees said it should not be brought up here. Timber, with respect, regardless how upset Ace is, he does deserve a phone call.

God Bless,
Tony


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## spirit wings

I really do not think eggs mean 100% you will get young birds, sometimes things happen to eggs, I personally would of at least waited till there were young healthy weaned birds to give, BEFORE selling the cock bird off. JMO


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## Guest

spirit wings said:


> I really do not think eggs mean 100% you will get young birds, sometimes things happen to eggs, I personally would of at least waited till there were young healthy weaned birds to give, BEFORE selling the cock bird off. JMO


I was thinking the same thing but was staying out of it lol


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## Skyeking

I appreciate you all sharing your opinions but I am going to close this thread if the parties involved continue to publicly post this private matter. I hate to do that, since this thread is on-going and quite nice.


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## Big T

Trees Gray said:


> I appreciate you all sharing your opinions but I am going to close this thread if the parties involved continue to publicly post this private matter. I hate to do that, since this thread is on-going and quite nice.


While I usually agree when a thread is closed but not this one. Both parties are mature and will carry it somewhere else. But just incase, I for one, want to keep this thread open. I have enjoyed all the parties involved with Ace's birds and come to wait and worry along with the rest with every race. Please do not close this thread. 

Tony


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## hillfamilyloft

Trees Gray said:


> I appreciate you all sharing your opinions but I am going to close this thread if the parties involved continue to publicly post this private matter. I hate to do that, since this thread is on-going and quite nice.


I really do not think this is a private matter. I am also involved here are those who are interested in its outcome are also involved. I agree we are all adults. In not so direct words my bird here as been called inferior without being tested as a breeder. I also take that to heart. The bloodline has won numerous races for many different fliers. I also agree you cannot judge a bird by its pedigree. But this bird was judged in that exact way. I would breed a few offspring from him before you judge his worth. 

In peoples court the contract would be binding before the sale. I also know why ACE sold the bird and why he wanted offspring off of him. I also do believe that the understanding was the contract as stated. Why can't someone be angry in here? Some of the members in here lack a bit of integrity. In an open post people can judge for themselves. 

I also have had verbal contracts with members of the post who have not held up their end of the deal, avoided contact, and in my opinion tarnished their name. If they are not exposed, it will be just like MBS, we will all get taken over and over. Now this matter is a little less severe, but still should be discussed. Personally I have sent 20 birds out this year to be flown in young bird races. They have not been flown and the party will not return my calls or emails. The world needs to know not to trust people all the time. 

The right thing to do would be to contact the party you had the deal with and discuss what you are doing. If you are not honoring the contract, stand up and do the right thing. makes me want to buy my bird back and send it to ACE.

Randy


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## Lovebirds

I should stay out of the whole darn thing I guess, but............I think that Ace and Timber should delete the posts that are in THIS thread and take it somewhere else in the forum. If they want to "duke" it out in public, then let the mods decided what to do from there, so be it.
I too agree that this thread was started for a specific purpose and should not have to be shut down because two grown men want to air their laundry in public.
Take it some where else and if the posts stay on the forum, members can decide whether they want to know what's going on or not by reading or NOT reading a totally different thread.
JMO........


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## hillfamilyloft

I cannot find the item number or the bird on the auction site anymore. There is not a history of the item being sold or anything. Curious on what is going on. 

Randy


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## Guest

hillfamilyloft said:


> I cannot find the item number or the bird on the auction site anymore. There is not a history of the item being sold or anything. Curious on what is going on.
> 
> Randy


the auction is over and it went for $66 bucks 
http://www.pigeons4sale.com/cgi-bin...ispallclosed2&DISPCLOSED=Prison1256918425.dat


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## hillfamilyloft

Thanks for the info. Hopefully he will breed Casjos25 some good birds. Was looking at what the other birds did from the same pair. I raised 3 birds from the pair and all three were in the top 10% in at least one race. One of the Dam's siblings was 1st last year at 250 old birds and bred 1st 200 mile young birds. Sires Granddam 3rd Alaska Gold Rush, Uncle equal 1st Alaska futurity, Cousin 4th vs 600 birds Idaho, 28th Idaho Futurity and so on. The bloodline has done a lot in 4 years. 

AU DRO 1423 2008 - 20th 250 miles 278b
AU DRO 1424 2008 - 22nd 311 miles 274b
AU FM 5495 2008 -4th 77 miles, 7th 130 miles 186b, 21st 164 miles 135b

Randy


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## whitesnmore

I too have had bad experiences with members of PT and have chose not to air it YET. I was hoping the individuals would make right. I dont think we should close this thread and I also dont think the members should be censored from exposing other PT members who are dishonest or outright scoundrels. Think about it would you want to assume resposibility for more individuals being "burned" because this site wont allow someone to call a horse a horse?


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## Big T

Lovebirds has it right. Start a new thread and let's focus on what this thread was started for. So how are the birds doing? Let's do a roll call, everyone states how many birds of Ace's you got left and how they are doing. I had to go way back in the thread to remember who's who.

God Bless,
Tony


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## hillfamilyloft

Big T said:


> Lovebirds has it right. Start a new thread and let's focus on what this thread was started for. So how are the birds doing? Let's do a roll call, everyone states how many birds of Ace's you got left and how they are doing. I had to go way back in the thread to remember who's who.
> 
> God Bless,
> Tony


here here, We have 16 birds going on the second 150m in the AM. I will have an inventory on the birds Saturday. I know we still have one of the silvers and I am thinking one or two more. Being a shorter race, I am expecting to see the speed show up again. They did well in the first 150. 

Maybe we will start a thread to air out our laundry. I know I am still in debt to one fancier for some band money. Keep in mind we are among friends and friends do not always treat each other as well as they should. If you take too much advantage then things turn ugly. Ones word is very important to me. 

Randy


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## pigeonnewb

whitesnmore said:


> I too have had bad experiences with members of PT and have chose not to air it YET. I was hoping the individuals would make right. I dont think we should close this thread and I also dont think the members should be censored from exposing other PT members who are dishonest or outright scoundrels. Think about it would you want to assume resposibility for more individuals being "burned" because this site wont allow someone to call a horse a horse?


I agree with Ken. I also had some great but also bad run ins with members of PT. Shoot I've been waiting for a bird for a little over a year. From someone here on PT. So maybe one day I'll get it but as of now I'm still waiting for a bird.. But I just don't believe me venting on PT would do me any good. I do not believe it will solve my situation, so I'm with Ken still waiting for maybe one day to get it. Though its been a year already. LOL!


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## Lovebirds

Sadly, all 6 of the birds that Mark sent to me have gone MIA.
1 was lost on very first training toss of 5 miles. It was the only bird that went missing that day.
1 was lost on a bad toss that we had from 22 miles. I lost about 10 birds that day. 1/2 of the birds that were released first were home when we got home. The other 1/2 never showed up that day at all, but a few came in the next day. 

2 were sent to the second race. (132 miles) I lost 3 birds that week end. Marks 2 and one of mine never made it home.

2 were sent to the third race. (144 miles). I lost 7 birds that week end. Marks last 2 and 5 of my birds. 

One of the birds he sent me, I had high hopes for. She flew her little butt off around the loft every single day. Flew way longer than any of the other birds. Don't know what happened, but then, we don't usually. When I sent her to the race, she had been sitting on dummy eggs for about 2 weeks. Her mate made it home just fine.......in fact, he was my first bird home.
And so it goes................


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## Ed

I still have two of his left 
They will be on next years old bird team 
7710 
7714


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## Southwing

Hello,Ace 

Sorry Ace for whats going on, here are the birds that I have.

7713 All birds have gone to 100 miles 2x150 their 2nd 200 on Monday. I am happy 
7711 with what they have done since they are long distance birds and will not be 
7709 tested until old bird season all they have to do is make 1 more 200, 250, 
7707 3x300s. *Man I Love Pigeon Racing*

Thanks Southwing


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## hillfamilyloft

The results of the ABQ race are in and as follows:
150 miles 216 Birds. The bird numbers are going down as the races were tough this year. 

4th LL 330 1:57 out (Leading High Points Bird) 1569 ypm
7th FM 7732 2:19 out
12th LL 344 4:22 out
61st LL 686 8:19 out
70th LL 348 9:47 out
71st LL 338 10:20 out

FM 7796 was 14:38 back

I will see if any other FM birds are still around soon. 

151 birds were clocked within 19:09 seconds of the winner. A pretty competitive race this one.

Randy


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## ace in the hole

*Thank you all for the reports,

Renee, Sorry to hear the birds were all lost.

Ed, The two you have left are both long distance birds. They are related. Let me know how they do as old birds.

Mike, Don't forget to give me a final report at the end of the season. Keep up the good work and continue to have fun with this great sport.

Randy, I have to give that 7732 some credit. If it can come in 22 seconds behind your 330 it must have flown well. That 330 is really kicking A**!!!

Ace*


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## hillfamilyloft

Ace 
Check out my webpage. I have updated in the Hall of Fame section the results of the offspirng from Ed. The three siblings this year have all bred top 10% birds. 3rd,3rd,4th,4th,19th, and 28th. This is becoming an automatic family for me at the 150 to 300 range. 330 loves to fly. Let me know and I can hook you up with a sibling of 330 or a bird off of Ed when I ship your breeders back. You did not fly a bird off Ed last year. I think I am going to work about 4 of your birds into the breeding mix this year. I plan on having every pair with either Kahunna blood or Ed blood this year. I will cross them into both bloodlines. 

Your birds are the 100-200 niche I am looking for. I also think Steve wants to team up again next year. 

Randy


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace 
The race on Monday was slow, sent 25 birds and only got 10 back on day. Checked today I have 14, HOPEFULLY i will get a few more back. If not i race with what i have. I think that I lost of the ones i got from you. The race was very cloudy for at least a 150 miles back. But was clear and sunny at release spot. 

I did find out today that i placed 2nd and 3rd in the second race not very good in the first race. It is looking good all week should be good for Sat. Sat race is 250 miles Will not be sending late birds.

Southwing


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## Southwing

Hello, Ace 
Last weeks race was crazy lost 10 birds, only got 2 back from the first race and got 2nd and 3rd in the second race. Will only be sending 10 birds this week. And I still have 3 of your birds Ace I will get #s this weekend. WE are racing on Sunday

Thanks Southwing


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## Southwing

Hello, 
Clock-out is on Monday, But I sent 10 birds 2 of Aces birds 7711, 7707, they both made it home. I only had 7 out of 10 home today. I think I might have a good time in the first race with a bird that has given me two 2nd places and 1st. Talk later after results.

Southwing


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## Southwing

Hello, 

Did not get 1st but got 4th and 5th in the first race i missed 1st by .28 sec
Don't know if we will be racing this weekend do to IDA. Will have to wait and see, If so I am taking the birds 300 miles into VA.

Southwing


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## hillfamilyloft

Well our ABQ season came to an end this weekend after 8 successful races. We, ACE and I did not to too badly, but do have room for improvement. I still think our little club of 22 fliers is one of the most competitive in the country. Most of the members can win on any given day. Minutes usually separate the top 100 places. With a 20 bird limit most had a full team on the 8th race. Makes for a competitive race. 

Good Points:
LL 330 one of my birds was 2nd points bird loosing to first by 10 points with 4 top 10% finishes. 3rd, 3rd, 4th, and 19th

We had 18 top 10% finishes. 

ACES 7732 was the second best bird in the loft with 3 top 10% finishes.

5 of 8 of ACE's flown birds had top 10% finishes. 

Bad Points
Other guys had better results. We did have some losses at about 50 -60% of the team. The club lost more birds this year. 

We had numerous top 10 finishes, but no wins this year. 

Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

ACE and Hill Family results per race: Top 10% finishes unless noted. We had one bad race that cost me high points bird, but other than that the birds were in good. We started the first race with 23 birds 10 from ACE and 13 from me. 10 birds finished season. Birds were flown natural to the perch. Most were molting heavily throughout the races. 

100 miles 334 birds : 9th (1.44 to win)
125 miles 342 birds : 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 34th, 35th, 36th (4.05 to win)
150 miles 364 birds : 3rd, 4th, 15th, 28th (6.23 to win)
200 miles 294 birds : 3rd, 4th (2.26 to win)
250 miles 267 birds : 33rd (first bird tough race) (31.03 to win)
300 miles 208 birds : 19th (16.27 to win)
150 miles 216 birds : 4th, 7th, 12th (1.57 to win)
200 miles 241 birds : not good

1475 total miles

Randy


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## Southwing

Hello,
Will not be flying this weekend do to no one be able to exercise pigeons all week because of rain. Next weekend it will be on. 
Another cool thing this week Koopman stopped by are combine to answer questions from fliers. He will be having an online auction soon. He was a nice guy and down to earth.

Southwing


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## Southwing

Hello, 
Seems like it has been a long time, raced on 11/21/09 @ 300 miles sent 12 birds and got 9 back that day birds that made it home from you were 7711 and 7707. 7711 was 19.00 min out and 7707 was 2.5 hrs. still not bad i feel that are club races a hard YB season. We had planed on doing 3x300 but do to low # of pigeons we are taking out the last 300. I also lost one of my favorite YB's on the 300 mile race that bird had a 1st and many 2nds and top 5 percents. 

Southwing


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