# Pet Pigeon Not Eating (No Parasites or Infection Detected)



## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi,

I’ve had my pigeon, NuNu, for about 3 years now, and just recently her eating has slowed down and she’s been losing weight. 

NuNu, her mate, and my other birds all live with me indoors (they are all non-releasable, formerly feral birds who were found with broken wings that left them flightless) and were wormed when I got them. We suspect that NuNu is probably only about 3 years old or a bit older (as she seemed young when I found her), although we can’t be certain. 

When I took NuNu to the vet, the vet could feel an air-bubble in her crop, and saw some material at the back of her throat (one of her kidneys also seemed a bit larger than the other, but absent other symptoms the vet didn’t think that was too remarkable). The vet looked at the material and some of NuNu’s droppings under a microscope and couldn’t see any parasites. We also did bloodwork, which came back unremarkable (no elevated white count), although her calcium was a bit low (which could have to do with the fact that she was just starting to lay a clutch, which she has now finished laying).

NuNu is taking Metronidazole (50mg/ml solution; dose of 0.17 mls 2x per day) and I’m syringe feeding her wet cat food mixed with a tiny bit of ground up Tums to supplement her calcium (in addition to the oyster shell that she always has available to her). I’m currently using Hill’s Anorexia Diet cat / dog food, and I had been giving her about 4 mls 3x per day (for a total of 12 mls per day), but as her weight hasn’t been coming up and she seems willing to eat more, I’ve been increasing the amount I’ve been feeding her. 

While I would be most grateful for any advice about treatment and diagnosis, I think my main questions at this point concern the syringe feeding. I was wondering if (i) the high-fat, high-protein cat / dog food is the best thing to feed a pigeon who is struggling to put on weight, and (ii) how much can I safely feed her (how frequently and how much per feeding). I think that NuNu’s normal weight was in the range of 390 or so grams, but she’s down now to 330 grams. I’ve been increasing how much I feed her by about a 1/2 ml at a time to see if she tolerates it, and, as she’s been tolerating the increases, we’re up now to about 7.5 mls per feeding. I was wondering if anyone had a sense of how much more I can give her per feeding, and how frequently she can be fed (I was thinking of going at least from 3 feedings per day to 4).

Thank you so much!
Howard


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Air bubble in crop means fermenting matter on the bottom of the crop, which means crop blockage. This most often is caused by candida, but can also be caused by a foreign object she ingested, or, according to what I've read (but never met) canker nodule on proventriculus.

Does the droppings look tinnier than usual, or with less feces (dark matter compared with the white matter)?

Treatment for candida is Nystatin, half a tablet, 1-3 times a day for several days (until problem disappears). Feralpigeon (an experienced user here) says Nystatin should be given together with (1 - 2 mg / day) Fluconazole, but take notice that this drug is quite hepatotoxic (if you gonna give, acompaniate with hepatoprotective supplement and B vitamin). "Washing" the crop between meals by filling it with water (and letting the water to be absorbed into organism) also help, as well as gentle massage of the crop (especially the bottom) after feeding. And as usual, give probiotics to the bird, as the apparition of candida was caused inclusively by the reduction of the crop bacterial flora.

Also, giving meat - based food to a pigeon doesn't seem a good idea for me. Meat is nocive even for meat - eaters (is the cause of most diseases in humans)


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi AndreiS,

Thanks so much for this. I'm e-mailing it to my vet and I'm going to get right on getting the Nystatin, and I'll be sure to be careful if we use Fluconazole. 

In the mean time I just wanted to ask you if you had a suggestion for what to feed NuNu other than the meat-based cat / dog food? (I was only using it because it had worked well with cats and corvids and I didn't know what else to use).

Thanks again!
Howard


P.S. When I've seen her droppings recently there has been very little white matter - it looks like mostly some dark matter with some clear fluid around it.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Does her breast bone feel sharp? Our 8 year old formerly feral pet pigeon weighs only about 290 and the avian vet said that is ok. Agree with AndreiS that cat food may not be ideal for a pigeon although all the wild birds outside just adore it. Do they make a Critical Care powder for birds like they do for herbivores such as guinea pigs?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Howard Nye said:


> Hi AndreiS,
> 
> Thanks so much for this. I'm e-mailing it to my vet and I'm going to get right on getting the Nystatin, and I'll be sure to be careful if we use Fluconazole.
> 
> In the mean time I just wanted to ask you if you had a suggestion for what to feed NuNu other than the meat-based cat / dog food? (I was only using it because it had worked well with cats and corvids and I didn't know what else to use).


Corvid are omnivores, they have pretty different metabolism to columbidae.

You have to feed Kaytee baby bird formula:
http://www.kaytee.com/products/exact-hand-feeding-baby-bird.php


If not available locally, you can order online. 
Here in Bucharest I can't find it and ordering online is too expensive, so I make my own by grinding some pigeon seed mix but its a time consumming process if you don't have a good device to grind.





> P.S. When I've seen her droppings recently there has been very little white matter - it looks like mostly some dark matter with some clear fluid around it.


A photo would be very helpful. Btw, the bird can suffer of infestation with bacteria, worm and other diseases and yet nothing appear at lab tests ans this happens in a large percentage of cases.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi cwebster and AndreiS,

Thank you so much for your replies!

cwebster - I'm not sure that her breastbone feels exactly sharp, but I do seem to be able to feel and notice it more on her now than I used to (and more than on my other birds). And given that her weight is down from what it has been for the last three years with me I think there is cause for concern. (I guess your pigeon is just smaller - it's the same with my non-releasable formerly feral magpie, who is just small for a magpie!).

AndreiS - Thank you so much for letting me know about the Kaytee formula! I'm going to buy some as soon as the stores open. You wouldn't know, by the way, how much of the Kaytee formula adults are supposed to get per unit weight, would you? Because all I saw on the online directions were instructions for chicks, who it says to feed around 10-12% of body weight per feeding, which would seem absurdly high for an adult.

Yes, please find a picture of a picture I just took of her dropping at:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgw5djbs95y25kn/NuNu's Dropping.JPG?dl=0

(I couldn't just attach it here because the file was too large).

Please ignore the small bits of older, dry droppings on the top and on the right towards the top (as well as the bits of red grit under the dropping to the bottom left and the seed under the dropping towards the bottom right). This one looks healthier to me than some of the droppings she'd had earlier. 

Thanks again so much!
Howard


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

About Kaytee: I know that the average pigeon eats 30 gr of dried matter / day, and given that 300 gr is the average weight of a pigeon (at least here in Romania), that makes around a tenths of bird's weight. And for a sick bird like yours, is vital to feed consistent amount of food, in order to help the bird support the effects of the pathogenic invasion (if present) and the toxicity of medicines.




Howard Nye said:


> Yes, please find a picture of a picture I just took of her dropping at:



I'm not an expert, but I'm sure this is the dropping of a very sick bird. The feces (the dark part) look like they consist of much blood and yellow matter. The dried droppings are intense dark green. This variation from dark green to ochre yellow and then to blood is similar to the symptoms of an outbreak at my birds during this time, about whose pathogenic cause I'm not sure, but I suspect coccidiosis or worms. Maybe I will find the time to go to vet to have a lab test.

The difference is that at the droppings of your bird, the blood is not homogenously mingled with the rest of feces matter, but is mingled with some translucid matter, like gelatine.

Possibly that my birds suffer from hairworms and your bird may have a taenia. Did she ever passed some incolor gelatinous matter as droppings? I had once a bird with a taenia and she used to periodically (every few days) pass such gelatinous matter, which was in fact the eggs. I went with a sample of that gelatinous incolor matter at vet, he looked at microscope and saw the characteristic taenia capsules with several eggs. If your bird has a taenia and you went to lab test with a sample that was not collected during egg emission, nothing must appeared at test. 





Can you post some photos, or, better, a little movie (posted on youtube) with the bird? If she looks relatively in stable condition, you can try a dewormer for taenia or for both taenia and other kind of worms.

Deworming substances fall in three categories: those for round and hair worms, like Pyrantel, those for taenias, like Praziquantel and those for both categories, like Albendazole and Flubendazole. The last two are considered toxic for pigeons. I treated that bird with Flubendazole and a part of taenia died and was vomited or excreted by bird (I found segments from it) but the head, which is attached to intestine's wall, remained, the worm rebuilt itself and unfortunately the bird died from some other complications.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi AndreiS,

Thanks again so much for your extremely helpful advice!

Regarding the Kaytee & Nystatin: I got both the Kaytee and the Nystatin today and started her on them. She seems to be enjoying the Kaytee much more than what we were using before. I’m giving her the Kaytee formula in an amount of about 10-12% of her body weight in per day – i.e. spread out over the 4 feedings. That amount is pretty close to what we were doing before. The instructions for growing chicks said to feed 10-12% of the chick’s body weight PER FEEDING, which, given your experience (and what NuNu seems to be happy getting) sounds like it would be excessive in the case of an adult like NuNu.

Regarding NuNu’s droppings & appearance: That’s very good to know about the possibilities of worms and coccidiosis, and I’m e-mailing my vet about this. But are you sure that what looks like blood isn’t the result of her being fed the meat-based cat / dog food? Her droppings turned brownish like that after she started on the cat / dog food and have ceased looking that way now that she’s on the Kaytee. Here are links to two pictures of her droppings from today, which I think look pretty different from the one I showed you from yesterday:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dj7xd25oq02drdn/NuNu's Dropping 5-17-15 4 PM.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/36e4nirx07qpccy/NuNu's Dropping 5-17-15 8PM.JPG?dl=0


Here also is a video of NuNu from today (in which I think she’s a little nervous of the phone / camera, as she hadn’t had one put in her face in that situation before):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m8d6ws8f9n93rnw/NuNu Video 5-17-15 4 PM.mp4?dl=0


(If you notice NuNu's drooping wing and lack of flying ability, those are permanent conditions with her: she was found 3 years ago with the wing-break that left her flightless and thus non-releasable). Throughout today NuNu has seemed pretty perky and active, in a way that is unlike what I’ve seen of birds who are feeling pretty sick. Her weight was also up a bit today, from 331 grams to 336 grams. I know that’s not a ton, but I think it’s the first time I’ve measured her gaining weight since I first noticed her seeming lethargic a few weeks back. 

Thanks again!
Howard


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Howard Nye said:


> The instructions for growing chicks said to feed 10-12% of the chick’s body weight PER FEEDING, which, given your experience (and what NuNu seems to be happy getting) sounds like it would be excessive in the case of an adult like NuNu.


Not sure if they refer to the entire weight of the food, that is, Kaytee + water, or only to the powder weight. I was refering to the powder weight. 100 gr of powder / day is impossible to be digested even by the biggest pigeon. 



> But are you sure that what looks like blood isn’t the result of her being fed the meat-based cat / dog food? Her droppings turned brownish like that after she started on the cat / dog food and have ceased looking that way now that she’s on the Kaytee.
> Here are links to two pictures of her droppings from today, which I think look pretty different from the one I showed you from yesterday:


Possible that the meat, the high proteic content has affected the liver. The droppings look now much better. 

Yet, the aqueous aspect, together with the fact she can't eat solid food, points out to an enteritis, infection of the bowel which most likely is caused by a bacteria, e.coli. I would say to give 50 mg amoxicillin / day for 3 days and see if droppings turn solid and dark kaki. If they turn, that means this was the cause. She nevertheless may not start to eat grains immediately, as even if the pathogen was killed, the damage it produced to the bowel remains and it will takes more time for the bowel to be rebuilt. And don't forget to give probiotics and vitamins during and after the treatment. Hepatoprotective supplement (methionine) also is a good idea. If amoxicillin shows no effect in three days (usually it shows effect from the first day), then there is other pathogen affecting the bowel, like coccidia or canker.

In my case, it seems that that condition of yellowish droppings was bacterially - caused, as I administered Lincospectin - an antibiotic injection - to a pigeon who turned really bad and droppings changed from corn-yellow to darker green (not perfect but greatly better) in less than two hours.




> Throughout today NuNu has seemed pretty perky and active, in a way that is unlike what I’ve seen of birds who are feeling pretty sick.


This is my impression as well.

Best regards!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AndreiS said:


> Treatment for candida is Nystatin, half a tablet, 1-3 times a day for several days (until problem disappears). Feralpigeon (an experienced user here) says Nystatin should be given together with (1 - 2 mg / day) Fluconazole, but take notice that this drug is quite hepatotoxic (if you gonna give, acompaniate with hepatoprotective supplement and B vitamin). "Washing"
> 
> Treatment for candida is Nystatin, half a tablet, 1-3 times a day for several days (until problem disappears). Feralpigeon (an experienced user here) says Nystatin should be given together with (1 - 2 mg / day) Fluconazole, but take notice that this drug is quite hepatotoxic (if you gonna give, acompaniate with hepatoprotective supplement and B vitamin). rop (especially the bottom) after feeding.



Actually, Andrei, this is not my practice and in a PM conversation that you initiated it was you who stated emphatically that Fluconazole should be used for treating yeast. I said that in my experience with avian vets treating for yeast the medicine of choice is Itraconazole when treating systemically. That Nystatin is also used for yeast but in order to treat yeast, Nystatin needs to come in contact with the yeast and is normally given in a solution format. A pill would be largely ineffective.

I did note that there are those who use Nystatin as a vehicle for Fluconazole
and furnished you with the recipe since you had stated that you used Fluconazole for treating yeast.

I will speak for myself when stating that I have only used Itraconazole and Nystatin for yeast infections or prophylactic treatments used concurrently with long term antibiotic treatments.

I have rehabbed pigeons for Wildlife groups in my area for ten some odd years and never had an avian or wildlife exotics vet recommend Fluconazole nor have I used it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hermann, both yeast and bacteria can cause gas/air in crop and since both can create havoc in the crop, both are due consideration. Trichomonads should also be considered when rounding up the 'usual suspects' as the tissue damage that this protozoa causes can in turn cause bacterial infections, it is also a very common dove and pigeon disease. Canker can also form a very large growth which can cause a crop occlusion and obstruct the crop from emptying. Because you treated with Metronidazole which treats anaerobic infections in addition to Trichomoniasis you have treated for protozoal infection and anaerobic infections that are sensitive to Metronidazole. 

There are many common digestive tract bacterial infections in pigeonos and if resistant Ecoli, a culture and sensitivity test is a wise step to take.


It is important that the crop empties between feedings and if it isn't, you can tube vinegar water to help the crop clear. Two tablespoons of raw apple cider vinegar to a gallon of water which can be 'halved-down' to get a more manageable amount. This is a good 'pre-biotic' for all of your pets, regardless.

I wonder if you tip the bird's head toward the sky if you can see the bubble?
Did the vet rule out a ruptured air sac? Also, if you lift the injured wing, do you see a cyst on the underside of the wing in a location which corresponds to a wing joint?

There are many experienced rehabbers posting here over the years who worked alongside avian and wildlife/exotic vets who have walked folks through the feeding of a newly acquired rescue by substituting soaked puppy kibble in a pinch without issue. This should not have caused your pet any health risk. 

I prefer Kaytee exact as it is bird specific and less work. I usually add vitamins and honey to the formula for added benefits. I would continue though, to leave pigeon mix out for the bird so that it can self feed as desired. It is better to leave supplemental feedings as just that, though I confess to using 'souped-up' formula on chronically ill birds to ensure they get the nutrition they need until out of crisis. This can result in a happy pigeon with less symptoms. A reminder, Kaytee will set up initially to a thick consistency after which reconstituting is necessary.

Do you happen to know if your bird is a cock bird or hen?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi feralpigeon,

Thanks so much for your reply; I've forwarded it to my vet. 

NuNu is a hen (she's got a mate, they have eggs, I replace them with plastic ones, etc. She just had a clutch about a week ago).

When I lifted her head to the sky I couldn't see an air bubble. I think my vet ruled out a ruptured air sac, but I'll double check.

I don't think I can see a cyst under NuNu's wing, but I'll check again.

We've been using the Kaytee exact formula, supplemented with Bene Bac Plus probiotics for a few days now. I think she's doing pretty well with it. She also has access to her usual pigeon mix (to which I add vitamin mineral & calcium / vitamin D powder). 

Thanks again!
Howard


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your welcome Howard. I think the Metronidazole treatment is a most reasonable approach, especially considering she just laid eggs and has been under stress.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*NuNu's Droppings & Weight*

Hi all,

At the end of May the vet analyzed material from NuNu's crop, and determined that it was a bacterial infection sensitive to Baytril. After treatment on Baytril, her crop bubbles disappeared, she seemed to be back to eating a significant amount on her own (although I was still syringe feeding her), and her activity level was way up.

But just in the last few weeks, around the time we finished with the Baytril, NuNu had a clutch of eggs. When she did, her activity level and weight went down significantly, and it didn't seem to be coming back up on its own. So I increased the frequency with which I was syringe feeding NuNu (back from 2-3 times per day to 4 times per day). This has seemed to enable help her gain weight and become more active. But NuNu's droppings have started to look pretty watery. For a picture, see:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/df05e3yimk5q1ar/NuNu's Dropping 6-18.JPG?dl=0


I don't know for how long it's usual to syringe feed birds after having crop issues like NuNu's. I had been trying to ween her off of the syringe feedings, but, as I said, she lost weight so rapidly after having the clutch, and I was so concerned that it didn't seem to be coming back up, that I felt I had to go back to doing it more frequently.

Also, does anyone have any idea what might have initially caused the bacterial crop infection, and whether NuNu will be particularly vulnerable to these in the future?

Thanks!
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Actually very often, it is canker that causes crop blockage. The bacteria or yeast can happen from the crop not working properly.An adult pigeon would get 50 mg Metronidazole daily. 
Encourage her to eat herself as much as possible. Don't think you were feeding enough either.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

So this is the pic with NuNu's droppings:














To me looks very much like the* e. coli* problems I had and still have with my pigeons. It passes easily if treated, is enough to give one or two days amoxicillin and droppings turn to normal and the bird is able to east solid food (grains) on her own. Baytril is also efficient but is a more toxic drug and causes candida. I always avioid using it.




It make no reason to give a longer treatment for e. coli because the bacteria is killed at first or second drug administration, but be prepared for bird getting reinfested, if the environment is contaminated (as is at me). In case the environment is contaminated, there may be several further infestations but finally the bird will get immune to the disease.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

Thanks very much for that. We had had her on Metronidazole, but maybe she needs to go back on it. I'll pass this along to my vet.

Could you clarify what you meant by "Encourage her to eat herself as much as possible. Don't think you were feeding enough either."? Is there a way of encouraging her to eat on her own apart from cutting back on the syringe feedings? 

Also, how much should a bird NuNu's size be syringe fed? Her healthy weight is close to 390 grams, and she's currently around 350 grams. I've been feeding her about 10-15 mls of mixed Kaytee exact formula (i.e. about 2 teaspoons dry formula mixed with sufficient water to get it to a creamy texture). When I cut back on feedings she was getting 10-15 mls 2-3 times per day. Now we're back to 10-15 mls 4 times per day. This diet of 40 - 60 mls per day was (and appears currently) to be sufficient to enable her to gain weight. Also, my understanding was (a) it takes about 4 hours for the crop to empty, and (b) when I once tried to give her more than 10-15 mls at a single feeding she threw up. As such, I thought that I was now feeding her about as much as she can be fed. Is that right, and it's just that going down to 2-3 feedings of 10-15 mls was too little? Or should I be trying to find a way to feed her even more than 4 feedings of 10-15 mls?

Thanks again!
Howard


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi AndreiS,

Thanks very much for that - I'm passing it along to my vet.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

> Also, how much should a bird NuNu's size be syringe fed? Her healthy weight is close to 390 grams, and she's currently around 350 grams. I've been feeding her about 10-15 mls of mixed Kaytee exact formula (i.e. about 2 teaspoons dry formula mixed with sufficient water to get it to a creamy texture).


You must think separate for the dried substance (the Kaytee powder) and the water. Ther amount oif dried Kaytee is the one indicated on the package of product (I don't know because I never had one). Must be something function of bird's weight. The amount of water must respond to the level of viscosity the bird can assimilate. If a healthy bird with lot of physical activity, he / she may get the food in more viscous condition (and as such assimilate more dried substance), as their criop is able to absord it and pass it through the proventriculus. If a sick bird, the consistency must be more aqueous in order to prevent the settling of the resulted cream on the bottom of the crop.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Howard, She should be getting 60 ml daily, not 40 to 60, if you want her to regain her weight. doesn't matter how many feedings you do it in. I know you had her on Metronidazole before, but not enough. Should be 50 mg daily, not 34, and 1 dose is better. 30 mg daily would be for a youngster.
If you want her to eat better on her own, then don't feed her in the morning. Wait a while and see if she will eat because she is hungry. Skipping that first feeding encourages them to eat because they are hungry. If you start feeding early, then she has no reason to eat, as she never gets hungry.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, hope NuNu starts eating by herself soon. Tried feeding Phoebe with a syringe...it was hard. Went and bought various birdie treats and she started eating various parakeet seed treats. We call them "birdie crack." Is there anything NuNu might find irresistible?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Just a thought...are you giving her calcium supplement with vitamin d3?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi all,

Thanks AndreiS and Jay3 for the advice as to feeding amount. I've increased the amount she's being fed, and she seems to be feeling better. In fact, her droppings looked more normal today (still, we've got an appointment at the vet on Monday, and we're going to run all the diagnostics).

Thanks cwebster for the advice about the treats. NuNu had been eating pretty well on her own before she had the clutch, got less active, and started having the watery droppings. I think she's still eating a little on her own now. Luckily she's very good for the syringe feeding and seems to do very well with it. I haven't had a lot of luck offering things to NuNu and my other pigeons to eat on their own other than their usual seed mix. But I'll definitely ask our vet on Monday about treats and anything else we might try. 

Thanks Charis for raising the issue of D3. I add Rep-Cal calcium and D3 powder (in addition to Natural-Granen vitamin minderal powder) to her normal seed mix, but of course she hasn't been eating much of that lately. At my vet's recommendation I've actually been adding a tiny bit of ground up Tums to NuNu's Kaytee Exact formula for calcium. But I'll ask on Monday about adding the D3 powder instead or as well.

I really appreciate all the advice / help!
Howard


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Still Not Eating (Much) On Her Own*

It’s been over 2 months now since I noticed NuNu wasn't eating much and we started treating her. While she seems to be doing quite well now in terms of her activity level (and the crop bubbles have long since cleared up with the help of the Baytril), I’m still having trouble getting her to eat on her own. Over the last month she’s had a clutch (with 2 very well calcified eggs) and gone through a couple bouts of watery droppings (after which her droppings firmed up). We have had her droppings tested, had a swab of her crop tested, and done bloodwork – most recently about 2 weeks ago. The only thing the vet was able to find most recently was that the ratio of gram-positive to gram-negative bacteria was inverted relative to what it should be. 

I’ve seen NuNu show some interest in her regular seed mix (but none in fancy things I’ve tried to give her like apple slices, lettuce, dried fruit, etc.). But every time I’ve tried easing back on the syringe feeding, NuNu has dropped weight pretty quickly. E.g. when I've tried moving back to 2 feedings per day from 3 or 4 feedings per day, she’s gone from 360-370 grams to 330-340 grams in a day or two. It’s also been difficult to try cutting back on the feedings when she’s been in the middle of laying clutches and recovering from bouts of watery droppings (which are times when I definitely haven’t wanted to ease up on the syringe feedings).

So my vet and I are just wondering: does anyone have any thoughts about whether she might still have an underlying problem (and if so what it might be)? Or is there something else I should try doing to help try to ween her off the syringe feeding (including perhaps letting her go longer without syringe feeding or so much of it, even if she loses a bit more weight. I’ve been very worried about letting her lose too much, because her healthy weight was around 400 grams, and I’m worried that if she loses too much weight she’ll be vulnerable to other health problems).

Thanks so much,
Howard


P.S. 
Does everyone else syringe-feed adult pigeons by putting 0.5 – 0.1 ml in the bird’s mouth at a time and waiting for her to swallow it (before putting in another 0.5 – 0.1 ml, continuing like that about 10-20 times until you’ve gone through a 1 ml syringe, and then re-loading the syringe and doing this again until you’ve gone through however many mls you’re giving)? This seems like the best way to do it, and NuNu seems to do quite well when we do it this way. But it does take us awhile to go through 15 mls at each feeding like this.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can your vet not show you how to crop feed? If not then maybe you could make some of the feedings with defrosted and warmed frozen peas. That would go faster also.

If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Have you given probiotics? Was wondering because you said the bacterial balance was reversed. Hope NuNu is all better soon.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3 and cwebster,

Thanks very much for your responses.

I thought that I did know how to crop feed; I've been syringe feeding NuNu Kaytee Exact formula for months now. I was just trying to check in here about whether I was doing it right / the way everyone else did it. I do hold NuNu in much the way you describe; I was just wondering if my technique for actually syringing in the formula (i.e. 0.1-0.05 ml at a time) was the way everyone else did it, especially since it takes a bit of time for me to do it this way. But I can ask my vet that same question too (I've given my birds meds over the years by just opening their beaks and syringing the medicine in a bit at a time like this - I just assumed that crop feeding worked the same way).

Will feeding her peas instead of / in addition to help ween her from the hand feeding? 

As to probiotics - yes, she's getting 2 tsp of Bene-bac plus per day. 

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, feeding peas would help to get her over to her regular feed.
Crop feeding is when you run a crop needle (which isn't really a needle, but a stainless steel tubing), or a tube down into the crop, and then you slowly express the 15 ml syringe directly into the crop slowly but all at once. takes a couple of minutes. It isn't difficult once you learn, but you do need someone to show you how to do it first. You need to go past and over the tongue, and down into the crop. And be sure that it isn't going down the trach, or you will kill the bird. Years ago I fed my first 6 babies with an eye dropper, and it does take time, and I was doing 6 babies. I would give about 1/3 of a dropper at a time then. It was like an assembly line of birds. LOL. Those were the days.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here is a link to the video. You really need to be shown though, so you don't go down the wrong tube. Your bet could show you. It also helps to have another person hold the bird, as they aren't really as calm and cooperative as the bird in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

Thanks so much - at first I thought that 'crop feed' was just a synonym for 'syringe feed', but now I see how different this is from what I've been doing. I'm going to ask my vet about this. I have to confess - I'm scared to death of messing this up and killing my girl. It also doesn't look like it would be that comfortable for her (especially since, as you say, the bird in the film is unusually placid - although crop feeding seems to have the advantage for the bird of being finished relatively quickly). So, although I'm going to talk to my vet, I'm inclined to stick to something more like what I've been doing - especially since we'll likely be trying the peas anyway.

Thanks again so much for the really, really helpful information!
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I understand how you feel, but if you let your vet show you how it's done, I think you will be surprised at how easy it actually is. 
Google some videos of it on you tube just to show you how it goes.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Howard Nye said:


> Hi Jay3,
> 
> Thanks so much - at first I thought that 'crop feed' was just a synonym for 'syringe feed', but now I see how different this is from what I've been doing. I'm going to ask my vet about this. I have to confess - I'm scared to death of messing this up and killing my girl. It also doesn't look like it would be that comfortable for her (especially since, as you say, the bird in the film is unusually placid - although crop feeding seems to have the advantage for the bird of being finished relatively quickly). So, although I'm going to talk to my vet, I'm inclined to stick to something more like what I've been doing - especially since we'll likely be trying the peas anyway.
> 
> ...



I would NOT crop feed the bird, even in experienced hands she can die. I reserve that for critically ill birds that WILL die if u dont try. That said, try giving her peanuts about 3 to 5 a day as they are a bit higher in fat and packed full of protien and other nutrients and oils she needs. IF she sees you as her mate, then she EXPECTS you to feed her, while she is on eggs, so you have a few options, DISCOURAGE egg laying by not allowing her in a confined space to lay eggs, NO nest, NO behaviour like petting or rubbing head or back or anything that she deems mating behaviour, and give her a rest from egg laying. If she is on eggs for now, then you feed her up to 3 times a day.

Also if u can youtube my vids of POURING mouthfuls of seeds into her mouth, this has been quite safe and fast and easy to do. Can get her fed fast within 4 or 5 mouthfuls. 

Found the link for you...
Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhpJMCzbFQ
Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqI8idx-SQ

IF you continue to want to feed her via syringe with the kaytee, then buy a 15 or 20 ml syring and fill it up and feed as usual that way, it stays wamer, u dont have to reload 15 or 20 times and it also will be quicker. I have not read the entire thread, but for what your questions are, I hope this helps along with the option to feed peas and corn EVEN the dry pigeon ones that comes in the seed mixes as she will drink when she wants. So it will be very easy to maintain her weight with min effort. Hope this helps
CBL


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Crop feeding is easy, and no way you can kill a bird with it, if you no what you are doing. You just have to go down the correct tube, which is very easy once shown. Some make it sound so difficult. Have no idea why someone who has done it would find it difficult, unless they just need more practice. You go down the correct tube, which is easy if you look where you are putting it, and you depress the syringe slowly so it doesn't come back up. It really is a simple procedure, and very safe if done correctly.
Tossing a handful of seeds down a pigeons throat seems more dangerous to me, as you could get them down the trach, especially if it were a bird with a respiratory issue, whose trach is wide open.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> Here is a link to the video. You really need to be shown though, so you don't go down the wrong tube. Your bet could show you. It also helps to have another person hold the bird, as they aren't really as calm and cooperative as the bird in the video.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU



Jay I looked at that clip and wasnt happy with the instuction. She has the tube in way too long, it is a thick tube which Im sure closes off the breathing hole while she took her sweet time plunging the plunger and the bird started to fight a bit because it probably needed to breath. But with her holding the beak in place, it could not until she removed tube and released beak. When I use crop needle, it is way quicker and I take into consideration the time I have it it for the bird to breath. Not to mention overfilling and possible regurg into the mouth just as the bird needs to breath.

Im with the poster that it should be left for critical care only. If ONE single drop goes into the wrong pipe the bird is dead before you release the beak. 

One other thing that can kill them, if the bird is ill, they have excess mucous in crop (usually) and if not taken into consideration, when filling crop with food and not allowing for that mucous, u can miscalculate the ml dose and the mucous gets displaced and backs up into mouth just as they try to breath, killing bird. Seen all of the above at one time or another. 

Just my opinion and have tons of experience with crop feeding.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Mouthful of seeds works like a charm  always has always will


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

CBL said:


> Jay I looked at that clip and wasnt happy with the instuction. She has the tube in way too long, it is a thick tube which Im sure closes off the breathing hole while she took her sweet time plunging the plunger and the bird started to fight a bit because it probably needed to breath. But with her holding the beak in place, it could not until she removed tube and released beak. When I use crop needle, it is way quicker and I take into consideration the time I have it it for the bird to breath. Not to mention overfilling and possible regurg into the mouth just as the bird needs to breath.
> 
> Im with the poster that it should be left for critical care only. If ONE single drop goes into the wrong pipe the bird is dead before you release the beak.
> 
> ...



I told him to have his vet show him. I told him to look at the video to see how simple it is, not to learn from, which I know he wouldn't anyway. The person doing the feeding is experienced and the bird could breath just fine. The tube goes down the other tube, not the trach, so doesn't impede his breathing at all. It also takes just a minute. Most birds don't appreciate the tube is all. And you wouldn't be filling the crop to FULL, no matter how you were feeding, so mucous really wouldn't present a problem. And it is a safe procedure if done correctly. If you had tons of experience, then you should know that.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Without knowing how to crop feed, my life would be hell. I receive between 200-300 pigeons a year.
As a rehab, the birds I receive are often babies that aren't weaned or adults too ill to eat on their own. Often, sick adults cannot tolerate seeds and formula is the only option. *It's only dangerous if you don't know how to do it.* Years ago, I had a vet teach me. I can honestly tell you I am experienced. I can honestly tell you I have never killed a bird via crop feeding.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Having Trouble Keeping Down Peas*

Hi Jay 3, CBL, and Charis,

Thanks very much for this. I've been trying to feed NuNu some peas in addition to the Kaytee Exact. At first she seemed to do very well with the peas. But lately she's been having trouble keeping them down. She doesn't seem to have this problem when I give her Kaytee Exact only (at least when it's mixed with enough water - I think she has regurgitated the Kaytee Exact when it's been to thick). I've been trying to be careful not to give her too many peas, but she really does seem to regurgitate them when I give her even smallish amounts. 

This makes me suspect that there's something wrong with her crop. Does anyone have any idea what could cause a bird - who otherwise seems pretty healthy - to be unable to keep down solid food like peas?

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Were they the frozen and defrosted peas?
How many did you feed her at one time?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay 3,

Yes, they were initially frozen and then defrosted. They were the petite peas, so much smaller than the ordinary peas.

I put the peas in her beak, one at a time, over her tongue, and she seemed to eat each of them without any problem. In total I gave her about 2 heaping teaspoons full of peas (maybe that would work out to about 20? 30? I'm not sure). I also gave her Kaytee Exact formula - about 1 ml before the peas, a little between sets of about 5 or so peas, and then 4-5 mls after the peas.

I'd weighed out the peas and it seemed like overall she was getting less total food mass between the peas and the 8 or so mls of Kaytee exact than she's been getting when I give her the Kaytee Exact only (in such cases I give her about 15-18 mls). When she gets the Kaytee Exact only in this way she doesn't seem to have any trouble keeping it down as long as I don't make it too thick.

Thanks,
Howard


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Crop needling is dead easy if you know how to do it, I was self taught by a video I purchased from australia, never killed a bird yet either been doing if for over 10 years, but would not reccommend to someone as a first time effort. 

Ok so that said, I would keep the feeds separate, one time the kaytee, next time peas but dont mix them in the same feeding. See how u make out, and did u post a pic of the bird, what age, we can better tell what to feed and how often.

Also the amount of benebac seems VERY excessive? My benebac calls for very minute amount, maybe re read the instrustions? or post them so we may interpret. Too much can certainly make them vomit.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

So not sure if yours in the exact same product but it says when hand feeding formula, NOT every day but every OTHER day and only 1/2 teaspoon. Are you feeding 4 feedings per day? If so and he falls within those weight guidelines and u do it every OTHER day then u should be safe.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I too would either give the peas or the formular at one feeding. I think both is just too much for her.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Peas and corn aren't hard or scary. How is her weight lately? Hope she keeps doing better and better. Am glad you rescued nonreleasable ferals, my favorite! Thank you.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi CBL, Jay3, and cbwebster,

Thanks very much. 

I will definitely try alternating the formula and the peas and report back.

I'm afraid that I previously misreported how much bene-bac she's getting because I mistakenly thought that the little scoop that comes with the bene-bac is a 1 teaspoon scoop. It isn't - it's only a 1/4 teaspoon. It's two of those little scoops that she's been getting today, for a total of 1/2 teaspoon per day, which is right what the feeding guidelines recommend for birds between 250-450 grams (her ideal weight is 400 g and since needing hand feeding she's been between 330 g and 370 g).

Below are links to six recent photos and one recent video of NuNu. The video is the same one as is posted much earlier in the thread. In the picture of both her and her mate, Philly, she's' the red bar on the left, while Philly is the blue check on the right. One important thing to bear in mind - NuNu was found with a wing fracture that left her flightless, so she might not move or hold her wings like a typical pigeon (the same is also true of Philly).

Folder link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vuc5cy30ay3uvg6/AAANbZ7AKPakrstE4PQRUygPa?dl=0

File links:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uxz6v7e4fv7ij4k/NuNu 2015.1.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2oozte9vphdmgn/NuNu 2015.2.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb5yo1uxf7i8am7/NuNu 2015.3.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8thyt71paw5g9r3/NuNu 2015.4.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4mxdmg6t7nf8ip/NuNu 2015.5.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmcqv2fccs5ad7g/NuNu & Philly 2015.1.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmf25h9j19175q2/NuNu Video 5-17-15 4 PM.mp4?dl=0

As to feeding amount and frequency, Kaytee does not seem to include instructions for feeding anorexic adults, but only babies. Those instructions certainly do NOT instruct feeding every other day; what Kaytee does say about babies is (from their website): "Hatchlings must be fed about every two hours; The number of feedings decrease and the amount of food increases as the baby grows. Baby birds require 10-12 percent of their body weight per feeding." What I've pieced together, from both what those on this forum have told me and from my experience with NuNu, is that she needs at least 10-12% of her ideal body weight of mixed formula per day so as not to lose weight (which, since her ideal weight is 400 g. is about 45 g or about 45 mls), and that for her to gain weight she needs at least 60 mls of mixed formula per day. I've definitely observed that if she gets less than 45 g per day, her weight will drop. The 2 tsp (and yes, those are real tsps, not bene-bac scoops!) of formula figure is the result of discovering that if I mix much more than that with water in order to obtain 15 mls of mixed formula, the mix is so thick that she's at risk of regurgitating it if I feed her all 15 mls

So far her weight has been holding steady between 355 g and 365 g. I'd like to see her get back at least into the 370s before trying again to ween her off of hand feeding. But the weening has been proving difficult - I've tried several times over the last two months to cut back to 2 feedings / 30 mls of formula per day, and each time she's lost weight precipitously. As such, I'm seriously worried that it isn't just that she's used to the hand feeding, but that there's still an underlying health issue.

Thanks again!
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, I hate to seem dense, but does NuNu seem healthy and is she eating anything on her own now? How large a bird is she? Phoebe weighed less than NuNu for most of her life, usually around 300 gm, and Dr Speer who is a great avian vet described her as "sleek and sexy" which for her medical condition was preferable. How large a bird is she? Is it possible her weight and health are ok now? Just love her photos. She is a beautiful bird and my favorite type. Is her weight stable or is it still dropping when she isn't hand fed? I just worry about harming her through overkill. I tend to be obsessive in my care and don't want others to fall into that trap. If she needs it by all means I would keep up the hand feeding. But is it possible she's ok now? Sometimes a bird might stabilize at a different weight as they age just like us I would imagine. Philly is beautiful too. NuNu is really pretty and I really hope she is ok now. You are a wonderful caring bird parent.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard Nye said:


> Hi CBL, Jay3, and cbwebster,
> 
> Thanks very much.
> 
> ...


Remember that those instructions are for birds that are not eating on their own. If she is looking good and acting healthy, maybe you need to let her eat on her own for a while and see how it goes. Give her time to gain some weight back. Being a little lighter is actually a good thing because she doesn't fly. In time, because of that, she will be gaining weight anyway. Maybe at 400 grams she was a bit heavier than need be? 
If she is looking and acting well, I would just back off the feedings and see how she does on her own. If she starts acting sick or gets way light, then I would be concerned. But getting her back to the weight she was before isn't really necessary. 
And cwebster, that wasn't a bad idea, and you certainly didn't seem dense. It was a good thought and made sense.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Pigeon Crumble?*

Hi all,

NuNu has been doing well with the alternation between Kaytee Exact Formula and peas. Thanks again so much for the advice on that. My vet advised that, even though NuNu is only around 360 grams (down from a previous weight of 400 grams), I could try cutting back on the feedings, initially to twice a day. While we've only gone 1.5 days like this, NuNu's weight is holding steady, and her and Philly's food bowls have been eaten down pretty well, so I think she's eating some on her own too.

My vet did recommend that I might try to move NuNu onto a pigeon crumble, instead of the seeds mix she's currently getting, in order to improve the motility of her digestive tract. (NuNu's current seed mix is Tippler by Baden, and consists of peas, corn, millet, milo, wheat, barley, and some kind of round, brown thing that I can't quite identify - maybe it's another kind of pea?). She recommended the following brands:

HBD
Roudy
Lafebers
Zupreem

I have not, however, been able to find a food made by any of these firms that is labelled a crumble for pigeons / doves. Has anyone here tried any of these brands of food for pigeons? Would anyone know how to find a "pigeon crumble" made by them?

Many thanks!
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They make pigeon mixes which are seed, not crumbles. The Tippler one you mentioned is what is usually in a pigeon mix. The brown thing may be Austrian pea, and they usually like that one.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, Phoebe used to love Zupreem cockatiel pellets after being changed over from seeds. Our new bird likes Layer pellets and crumbles but they are chicken food. I think Roudybush has one similar to crumbles. But would make really sure she is stable in terms of weight before changing her diet so you don't set her back. You might want to try various pellets for cockatiels and see if NuNu likes them. Some manufacturers will send free or low cost samples.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Something (Safe) to Give a Pigeon to Help with Car Sickness*

Hi all,

Thanks very much for all of your advice on things to offer NuNu to eat. Unfortunately she hasn't shown much interest in anything but her regular bird-seed, and she still hasn't been eating enough of that to maintain her weight on her own. I have thus been continuing to feed her 2-3 times per day (with defrosted peas in the morning and Kaytee Exact in the afternoon / evening).

Apart from not eating enough on her own, NuNu has continued to seem to be doing very well and to be pretty energetic (including getting up on her furniture, doing all her normal courting and mating behaviours with her husband / mate, and laying clutches of two well-calcified eggs each at her normal interval of about a month apart). But because of the continued difficulty eating on her own my vet and I have scheduled an appointment for her at a veterinary college in a neighbouring province (I live in Alberta, Canada, and our appointment is at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatchewan, Canada). The only thing issue is that it's a 5 hour trip each way to the veterinary college, and NuNu has gotten pretty car sick even on her brief (20 minute each way) trips to the vet. 

So my main question now is: do you know of anything safe to give - or do for - pigeons to help with car sickness? Obviously, I don't want to give her anything that could be harmful in any way. I've tried keeping her carrier more level in the car, and that does seem to help somewhat, but she still seems to get a bit car sick despite that. That said, I think that most of the car sickness has been on the way to the vet - I don't think she's shown too much on the return trip. So it may primarily be stress, as opposed to just the car motion, that causes her to vomit. But, of course, a 5 hour trip to and than another 5 hour trip back from the college might be pretty stressful. So any ideas about how to reduce stress might also be most helpful.

I'd be grateful for any and all suggestions; I just really don't want my little girl to be miserable for 5-10 hours!

Thanks so much,
Howard


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I noticed they get invariably stressed in car, probably because of the balance. What I do (I do not drive but taking the taxi) is to keep them in my hands and keeping the arms relaxed so that the car balance to be amortized from arms' articulations (same principle with a steadycam). Also, I keep their beak between my fingers and try to comfort and psychologically reduce the stress as much as possible.

In fact, not only then but everytime I use to do something or go to their room, I'm imposing to think and act as I'm not handling but comforting them. This thought helps me move slowly (our sudden movements stress them) and not do other things that can stress them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As far as the car sickness, just don 't feed her. They don't like riding usually so an empty crop helps. She can miss a couple of meals.
Are you sure you have tried hard enough to get her to eat on her own? Seems at this point that she just wants to be fed, but if not hand fed would eat. Not like she doesn't know how. Some times tough love is needed.


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