# Thin young bird stretching its neck to ?breathe, trachea or oesaphagus moves to left



## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

On Sunday evening we saw a young bird that didn’t look good. It is actually one of Ladylove and Buddies last chicks – now about 4-5 months. Buddy chased them off their box soon after Ladylove was released about 3 weeks ago and it has roosted on the Bougainvillea with about 5 other birds.

We saw it with its neck stretched up and it vomited seed. We caught it and it has been indoors in a cage. On Monday we tried to first get an idea of its condition and its poop. 
•	Its thin – so hasn’t eaten properly for a while
•	Yesterday the poop had some undigested seed in and it also vomited some seed
•	Its poop is mostly white and has some has a small green faecal part , and not a lot of poop
•	Often it does something I have never seen before – its neck is stretched up and something prominent in its throat/neck area – we presume it’s “oesophagus”/the crop/part of the digestive system or the trachea but we aren’t sure – moves to the birds left and back again, repeatedly . It seems that it’s on inhalation.
•	Its poop smells a bit fermented/sour
•	Its beak also smells a bit sour too
•	Last night its crop was empty
•	Its empty now too – so it probably hasn’t eaten today?

As it had some similar symptoms to Ladylove – vomited and undigested seed- we started it on the anifungal that we had left over from treating her, as well as Baytril last night. We also gave it some Heptonic. It has ACV, vitamins and probiotic in its water and is under a lamp.

It didn’t look like it vomited this afternoon, and the poop didn’t have seed in it, but it may not even have eaten

Does anyone know what is happening in its neck area and why?

I am not sure what else to treat it with.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would treat him for canker. Metronidazole 50 mg once daily for 10 days, and hand feed. Either get the baby bird formula, or you can try frozen peas which have been defrosted and warmed under warm running water. Metro can also make them vomit on an empty crop, so feed first, then medicate. If he still vomits, try giving a few drops of Pepto Bismol about 30 min before feeding and medicating. Is he drinking a lot? If he is over drinking, which they often do with canker, then remove the water dish and offer it several times a day, but just don't let him fill up on it. Otherwise, it will often just come up again and can aspirate the bird. I would get the med in tablet form, as the stuff you add to the drinking water is not what you want. You need something you can give the bird in his beak, not in the drinking water. That way you are sure that he got the right dose. If you don't have Metronidazole, you can often find Fish zole in pet stores that sell tropical fish supplies. You would want the one that has just Metronidazole in it. Nothing else.

Edit: Just noticed where you are located. Maybe where you are you can get the medicine in a pharmacy. I'll PM Marina as she should know where you can get what you need.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You can get the meds from Diamond pigeon stud. They are in Kimberley but can speed post to you. Their telno 053 831 2619. They also have a website www.diamondpigeonstud.co.za

Get the meditrich tablets, it's a product from Medpet. Costs R75 for a 100 tablets and it works well. I always make sure I have those meds in stock.

Otherwise, if you live in Cape Town maybe a large petshop will also stock these medicines. You can try Panorama petshop, unfortunately I don't have their no.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks. I do have Metro and we do get our meds from Panorama Pet shop.

I don't think he has eaten or drunk water over the past day- and I am wondering if her can? His neck area seems to almost be going into spasms with the trachea or oesophagus contracting to his left, then right, then back to left as he breathes.

I think we may asphyxiate him if we try and feed him?

I just offered him runny handrearing food and all he did was put his beak in and not even try and sip

Could this be some form of PMV?


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

These "neck/trachea/oesophagus spasms?" are almost constant.

He basically rocks back and forward when he breathes with his neck held high, with these contractions/movement happening within his neck/upper chest area all the time.

He had a sip or two of the runny hand-rear food

I have no idea as to what is causing this!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Poor bird! Are you treating for canker? That prominent thing in the throat is probably the trachea that you're seeing. Seems like it gets very prominent when the crop is empty and the bird is losing weight.

A while ago I rescued a young ringneck dove. He made very weird movements with his neck and crop, going in a circular way like he was adjusting the seeds in his crop. Did this especially after eating, followed by open mouth breathing.

I treated him with Meditrich and Nystatin and after 3 days the movements stopped and he started eating by himself again. He made a full recovery.

Does not sound like PMV to me. If he's not eating and you don't want to feed peas, try putting some formula into the front of his mouth with an eyedropper.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

He tried to eat a few seeds this afternoon when I held a small container up to his beak, but these uncoordinated, involuntary neck movements just take his head into all different positions and so he can't get his head down to peck properly. When he manages to get his head to the bowl, he eats one out of every few that he manages to pick up - the others get dropped when his neck goes crazy again. He can't control his neck.

He drank some electrolyte solution and had a little bit more of the runny handrear food. I'll try with a dropper to see if we can feed him some more.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Are you going to get the canker meds?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Can you post a photo? Or a video maybe of the neck movements?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I've seen that before. Almost like he is uncomfortable and trying to fix it. I think the bird did have canker.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

I have taken 2 short videos on my camera but am unable to attach those as this site only recognises 5 types of attachments e.g jpeg and mine is .mov.

Any ideas re this techno hitch?

I have Meditrich tablets


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some people use You Tube and just give us the link.

I would start him on Meditrich for 10 days.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

A friend very kindly took a video on his camera and has posted it on youtube.
See link: 

https://youtu.be/jGwcrXR7ZrY

thanks


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

I have given him half a Meditrich as he is so light and thin. 

He tried to eat a bit today but not much at all. We are still trying to give him some handrear food and rehydrate but he is not getting much in and so is really thin. He must have been sick for a while before we noticed it. Always hard when they are free flying.

When his head is tucked in one doesn't see the movements as much compared to when his neck is more upright. The 3 short clips that were joined together show a mix of the neck involuntary movements as well as how he "rocks" back and forward.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would have started with the whole tablet, then gone to 50 mg (1/2 tablet) a day, for 10 days and see how it goes. If you wanted to cover more bases, you could add Enrofloxacyn (Baytril) also.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

I was just concerned to give a full tablet which Medpet often says on their bottles are for 450 - 500g birds. He is SO light - easily weights only half of that.

He has been on 0.05ml of Baytril since Monday evening together with the anti- fungal that we treated his mother Ladylove with about 3-4 weeks ago.

Late last night when we took him out the cage to give him the those meds, he actually ate a whole lot of small seed by himself. That was about 3 hours after giving him the half Meditrich.

This morning his neck is still doing the same thing and he is perched in sleep mode and not interested in food yet, just had a few sips of rehydrate with probiotics in


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

This little guy isn't showing improvement and is getting thinner and less stable on his feet. 

Has anyone else seen or had a bird with this kind of condition of involuntary movement or spasms in is neck or digestive tract? - as seen in the short video.
https://youtu.be/jGwcrXR7ZrY

We have tried to feed him and he just gets little bits in.

We put him outside in the cage in the sun this afternoon when the other birds were feeding and he tried to eat some seed but he must have vomited it up shortly thereafter. He had also vomited a bit this morning - which he hadn't done for a few days.

Today will be his 6th dose of Baytril and Ketoconizole the antifungal, and 3rd dose of Meditrich ...... and it doesn't seem to be showing any positive effect.
With little food in his crop , most of these meds are going into an "empty crop".


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

If he keeps on vomiting, the meds don't stay in the crop either so they don't get a chance to start working.

I would remove all the seeds and only concentrate on getting formula into him, easier to digest and this hopefully won't make him vomit. If you can only keep him alive until the meds start working. Tube feeding directly into the crop would have helped a lot, but then you need someone to show you exactly how to do it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Totally agree with Marina. Formula may be easier and may stay down. Here we give a few drops of Pepto Bismol 30 min before feeding or medicating, and that does help to stop the vomiting. 

Metro is known to make them vomit on an empty crop, so feeding first helps. If you can get something like the Pepto to give first, that would be helpful too. Also, give the meds at spaced intervals. Not all together.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

I didn't know that vomiting was a side effect of Metro - and he has started vomiting again since I started that.

We have been giving the Metro a few hours apart from the Baytril and Keto

The problem with feeding him or giving him something to drink, and even when they are at room temperature or warmed, is that it all seems to send his ?crop? into more spasm. Also when he feeds.

I have called a 24 hours vet centre this morning to try and find out if its possible to give the bird a Buscopan injection or part of a Hyospasmol tablet to see if this calms the spasms but they don't have info on the effect or use of this in birds.

Does anyone know if these meds are safe to use in birds and if so, what dose?

We have 10mg Hyospasmol tablets that we recently got for our one dogs who had Irritable bowel disorder and was given a Buscopan jab and then Flagyl tablets, and they gave us Hyospasmol tablet to take home if it recurs.

I am going to email the vet I have previously taken the last 2 pigeons to, but being Sunday she might only see this tomorrow sometime.

Despite bring on Keto an antifungal for 6 days now, his poop (which are very runny and now more green) still smells sour.

Pepto Bismal isn't available from pharmacies here. It seems the only equivalent is Gaviscon. Marina do you know if it is appropriate to use in birds? I have emailed Diamond Stud but no reply yet. I didn't see a place to order from on their website or a list of their products .

We gave him a tiny dose of Petcam last night (after feeding) which is for pain relief and inflammation as we don't know how much discomfort he is in due to these spasms. On a previous occasion an avian vet had prescribed this for a small concussed dove so we had an idea of dosage.

He hasn't vomited or pooped since late last night but even now when tucked in and sleeping, his ?crop?/digestive tract or trachea is still moving around.

We still don't know what is causing these spasms/involuntary movements. Cramping??


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Don't know if you can use the Gaviscon for pigeons. Have just been on their website: www.diamondpigeonstud.co.za If you click on "catalogue" you will be able to view the 2017 catalogue, it's actually a page through catalogue with lists of all the meds etc. I always just send them an e-mail, and then they mail me an invoice back. Rather phone them tomorrow, ask to speak to Derrick the owner. Maybe you can mail him the link to the video you've made.

Stress must aggravate the movements he makes. Is the metro you're using a Medpet product?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Isn't it strange, it almost looks like air in the crop. How about activated charcoal powder added to the food? Not at the same time as meds though as it can absorb them.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

Yes Marina, the Metro is the Medpets Meditrich product. 

I did see the Catalogue section on the diamond stud website but it looked like it was pigeons and I didn't realise the products were in there as well . I can send them the link and maybe they have seen this before. I have sent it to the vet as well.

He hasn't vomited today and we have fed him twice and will feed again just now before the other meds. He looked quite weak this morning but has improved during the day.

We had him outside in the sun for a few hours amongst his flock which also perked him up a bit - but the "neck" movements continue.

FredaH , I don't know anything about activated charcoal powder. What is it used for?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Going through notes on a rescued bird years ago, a feral was doing something like that, and turned out he had a blockage and pain as he had swallowed glass, probably thinking it was grit. I had forgotten what his symptoms were. But he was doing this adjusting of his crop.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Activated charcoal absorbs chemicals (as in poisoning) and air and is used for internal discomfort caused by wind. It's used for overdoses regularly in our emergency department but is also good for absorbing air. I used it when hand rearing my last chick because she had air in her crop that I couldn't get out by 'popping' I added a sprinkle to her formula a few times to help. 
You can buy it online, pharmacies or health food stores but it needs to be the activated kind as that works the best.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

We fed Budboy (cos he is Buddys male chic) a bit again after I posted and gave him the Baytril and Keto. He looked uncomfortable after the feed – with the spams/movements increased again, as if it was painful. Then he settled more again.

After the feed I decided to book an appointment with the vet for the next morning and got a 10:00am – just thought we need to try and get him help to find out what this is.

I also went on the web again and found an article by Dr Colin Walker from Melbourne vet. In it there was a section that seemed to refer to a "penguin posture" that sounded the same as the “chest pushed forward, head back” posture that Budsboy adopted after feeding. Also about canker nodules and sour crop. I was going to take the 2 extracts to show the vet. We had been doing most of what he recommend for the sour crop: electrolytes, baytril, flagyl, separated the bird. Just not emptied the crop but his crop had been empty from not eating.

This morning we woke up to find that Budsboy hadn’t made it through the night.

It’s always such a heartsore thing to lose a bird that you have been trying to help. I hope our last feed didn’t aggravate his condition that seemed to have improved over the day on Sunday

He had only pooped twice during the day and they were very watery and green and the sad thing is that his one poop overnight looked more normal with white and more sold green bit, as if some part of his condition was healing. A lot of fluid had come from his beak onto the paper. He was hardly drinking out of the bowl during the past week so it wasn’t excessive drinking. I wonder if the handrear food “separates” in the crop? We use a local Monati product

I have included the 2 extracts from the article and the video link again as it may help someone else in the future if they have similar symptoms in a bird – maybe his short life won’t in vain if it helps save some other birds.

Thanks for the responses over the past week – always appreciated.

A sad sunbirdy.


https://youtu.be/jGwcrXR7ZrY - Budsboys posture and movements

*From Common Piggeon Diseases by Dr Colin Walker*
Control during the race season

If canker was a problem during the breeding season, this tells us that the birds have the potential to have trichomonad flare-ups in response to stress and that canker is likely to be a problem during racing. However, through good management and the correct use of medication, it is hoped, however, that most birds have developed a reasonably strong natural immunity by the start of the race season. The stress of racing will put any immunity that the birds have formed to the test. Depending on what stresses the birds are under, trichomonad levels will rise and fall. When high, they have a typical parasitic effect, weakening the bird, in the process creating a vulnerability to secondary infection (particularly respiratory infection) and compromising race performance. They also produce a toxin that makes the birds feel unwell. Birds with elevated trichomonad levels are said to have 'wet canker'. Signs of infection can be subtle and quite varied. Typical signs that would alert the fancier to its possible presence include:

1. 'Penguin' posture - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly after eating and drinking.

2. 'Dry feather' - Due to lack of down feather drop and bloom production.

3. 'Leady' feel - Affected birds will not come into condition and feel heavy in the hand.

4. Wet dropping - Inflammation in the digestive tract creates a thirst, leading to elevated water intake and urine production. This produces a clear watery rim around the dropping.

5. Green droppings - Due to digestive tract irritation and in some birds decreased food intake.

6. Inflammation in the throat - Tonsillitis and increased clear to grey bubbly mucus.

7. Interference with crop function - Delayed crop emptying and sometimes vomiting.

8. Increased food consumption by team as a whole

9. Dry yellow canker - In birds of any age, this tells you that many other birds have elevated trichomonad levels, which have not yet passed the threshold for yellow material to form.

10. Indirect signs - Poor loft flying, poor tossing, respiratory problems that respond poorly to medication or quickly relapse, a dramatic improvement in the birds' general vigour in response to anticanker medication are all suggestive.


Sour crop

In pigeons with sour crop, at least 90% have an internal canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the glandular stomach (proventriculus). As the nodule increases in size, it squashes the windpipe making breathing difficult and blocking the crop outlet. This interferes with crop emptying, leading to bacterial infection of the crop and secondary starvation and dehydration due to the crop contents not being able to pass into the bird's system. Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell, the condition has passed the point where it will respond to treatment. Deaths often occur due to the nodule growing through the stomach wall, leading to stomach contents leaking into the chest. Alternatively, the nodule can damage the heart or large blood vessels within the chest, causing sudden and severe bleeding. Such birds are often found dead on the floor with blood coming from the mouth. It is always worth attempting to treat valuable birds and I suggest :
• Manually empty the crop
• Give electrolytes in water 
• Treat bird with 3 drops Baytril twice daily
• Treat bird with 1 tablet of Spartrix or a 1/4 Flagyl tablet or 0.5 ml Flagyl syrup once daily
• Separate unwell bird from loft mates


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

So sorry you lost him, its always heartbreaking. Think he was just too far gone by the time you found him.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry you lost him. I know how hard you tried to help. Sometimes we just can't. He is out of pain now.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Amvery sorry to hear Budsboy didnt make it.


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## vantazy (Jun 5, 2003)

it looks like he has an empty crop & there is a pronounced persistalsis which is the movement of the crop. i would put the bird on heat (85 degree F) with heat lamp & i would feed him solely applesauce to get the crop issue cleared up. in order that the bird not die from lack of nutrition i have actually fed my rescues scrambled egg--easy to slice & feed if cooked in a pan--i even combine applesace with the egg which they seem to do fine with. try to get the canker issue cleared but it could also be yeast so he would have to be treated for that. get a gram stain done on his poop at a local bird vet?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

vantazy said:


> it looks like he has an empty crop & there is a pronounced persistalsis which is the movement of the crop. i would put the bird on heat (85 degree F) with heat lamp & i would feed him solely applesauce to get the crop issue cleared up. in order that the bird not die from lack of nutrition i have actually fed my rescues scrambled egg--easy to slice & feed if cooked in a pan--i even combine applesace with the egg which they seem to do fine with. try to get the canker issue cleared but it could also be yeast so he would have to be treated for that. get a gram stain done on his poop at a local bird vet?


Hi vantazy, you really need to read all the posts, as she did let us know that he had not made it, unfortunately. Thanks for trying to help anyway.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks everyone .

Just out of interest I have added what the vet responded after seeing the short video clip. Budsboy died the night before I was going to take him to her.

_Involuntary neck spasms in pigeons are very often caused by paramyxovirus, or similar viral infections. This video is not typical of it, but I would not rule it out just on that basis. This is extremely contagious for other pigeons, so be careful with quarantine. There is no treatment, just supportive and antibiotics for secondary infection if present. Some will recover, others will not. 

Just be careful with self medicating birds without advice from a vet, some of these medications is contra-indicated in certain conditions, so giving the meds will actually do more harm than good in those situations.Good luck with him_


And the guy from Diamond Stud that I emailed re the meds. He hadn't seen the video and didn't comment after I sent it to him after this message.
_The pigeon has got Parathyphoid or paramyxo Virus...
Both are deadly deseases and the pigeon will die.
We do not recommend any treatment as it will be a waste of money.
Parathyphoid is treatable...medpet 4 in 1 tabs.(bacteria)
Paramyxo is not treatable and pigeon must be eliminated....(virus)._

I don't think it was Paramyxo - we had a bird (Buddys first wife) with PMV 3 years ago who recovered with support and Budsboy's symptoms didn't look the same. The following year she was taken by a falcon/goshawk while rearing chics

But this one will remain a mystery as to exactly what it was.

Thanks again .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The advice from the guy from Diamond Stud was ridiculous. Thanks for posting that.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

This comment was received from someone who looked at the video clip I sent - and I think it makes sense. 

_Most often, "pinguin posture" is not because pain but because the bird has blocked crop and when she drinks water, the water don'tn pass into gissard and if she doesn't stay vertically, the water comes into mouth amd from there enter the trachea and lungs, killing the vird _


When we found Budsboy lying dead , there was a lot of water/fluid on the paper in the cage that had come from his beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They do use the penguin posture when they have other diseases that would cause pain, but the crop is not blocked. Many times for different things, crops don't work and do fill with water. The bird doesn't usually stand like that.


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