# Dilute Ash Red...Sex Link or Simple Recessive?



## Dragonboy (Mar 18, 2013)

I have a pair of Danish Suabians. Cock bird is a red, and the hen is a black.
They produced what has been identified as a Dilute Ash Red. The breeder of the parent pair identified this color for me. I simply called it silver cause the bird is all silver *minimal red*. 
I was told that it had to be a female since both parents are visually not dilutes. 
So when I did the DNA tests I did not DNA this bird. It is in a cage with it's clutch mate that was shown through DNA to be a normal red hen, albeit with muffs. The other occupants in the cage are a 2012 Capuchin Hen and 2 frill back hens I just do not have males for at the moment. Anyway today cleaning cages I caught this dilute breeding the cap hen. It has been strutting around acting like a male but everyone told me it has to be female. I am going to DNA it on my next batch of tests get sent it to be sure but this bird has me totally baffled now.
Any thoughts for those more experienced here?


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## 12Ka-6 (Sep 4, 2012)

Hi Dragonboy, Are you able to post photo's of both parents and and both young. 

How did you do the DNA tests on the clutch mate?

regards
Gordon
.....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If both parents are non dilute and you have a dilute young it is a hen, So the pairing would be what I refer to as partially sex linked. You will get all non dilute cocks, Half the hens would be dilute and half would be non dilute. A dilute ash red would appear yellow in colour. 

In saying this, The bird you describe sounds ash red spread, NOT DILUTE. Which would make sense if the hen is in fact black (blue - spread)

I would not DNA it, I would fairly assume from the above that you have an ash red spread cock

Does it have any dark or black flecking. If it is a cock it will have some somewhere although you may need to look hard in the flights and tail feathers


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## Dragonboy (Mar 18, 2013)

Here are the pics that were requested...
The parent pair with the nest bowl.
the babies...the normal red and the dilute in the front. 
The DNA sexing was done via blood from a clipped nail by Health Gene Labs in Toronto. 

While I kind of understand what NZ said about spread that honestly adds another dimension to it that being a greenhorn at both pigeons and genetics I am even more confused about.

You can see other pictures of the pair and their first baby in this thread here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/danish-suabian-question-69524.html

Thanks for all the help even if I am getting confused.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

DNA testing for gender?
Are you rich and impatient or something... ?


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## Dragonboy (Mar 18, 2013)

I realize that to some DNA testing for sex determination seems expensive and foolish but with my limited amount of space (only have 8 cages total) I needed to know who to keep and who to sell. Unlike many on this list I do not have the luxury of living in an area where I can keep the birds outside so I am making due with using a couple of spare bedrooms in my house. 
Health Gene labs is only $10-12.00 (US) per test so it is worth it. I have spoken to numerous breeders here in the US who recommended it.


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## jafacanyan (Jul 17, 2013)

Great looking birds


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, they look great. Forgot to say that...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Did it have short down as a baby? Doesn't look dilute to me. Dilute is sex-linked, yes. As are the 3 "base" colors - ash-red, blue, and brown.


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## Dragonboy (Mar 18, 2013)

looked normal as a baby...He is a definite he...we got an egg from another female in the cage and it looks to be fertile. He would be the only possible male in a cage of proven or DNA sexed hens.
Never would have guessed at 4-5 months of age he would be fertile.
So much to learn.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

I wonder if someone here (Becky, Rudolph, others??) know which modifiers make up the Suabian and the different expressions. I think that is where the confusion lies in figuring out which colors those birds really are. very pretty!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Sadly, not a lot of work has been done on Suabien genetics. I was told that they are definitely frill stencil and toy stencil, velvet t-pattern and probably dirty as well.

The two colors, red and black are probably blue spread and recessive red, but that is just conjecture on my part. I haven't been able to find a long term breeder with Suabiens to look at bloodlines and crosses to figure out what happens in red x black matings...

The birds red in question here are probably the same genetically, but are different due to some variability in the stencilling gene expressions. Which is why Suabiens are notoriously had to breed to standard.


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## Dragonboy (Mar 18, 2013)

This is part of why this breed has me so fascinated along with their sweet personalities. The parent pair are a black hen and red cock. The original owner told me it was the only way to produce the "silvers" as he called them.
So I am leaning more and more toward breeding mother and son and seeing what I get. Since the daughter is a normal red like the cock bird I suspect all I will see from that mating are reds but again I could be proved wrong.

Thanks to everyone for the input. I really do appreciate it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

These lighter color ash-reds are probably spread and that is why he told you that was the mating that works to produce them. Normal reds appear to be ash-red t-patterns with some extra bronze. The spread ash-red would explain why it is so light in most of its body rather than the deeper more consistant red of the dad. Or perhaps it is genetically barred instead of t-pattern and/or lacks the additional bronze. The mom looks like she may not be spread but it is possible to have blacks with poor spread coverage where you can see the pattern/tail bar through it. Just throwing those options out there.
For future reference, dilute babies have shorter/more sparse down.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I know nothing about this breed but I like the fact that the Op'ers description led me to think they may be lavender (ash red spread). No credit to me, credit to good descriptions on the thread makers part.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Dragonboy said:


> This is part of why this breed has me so fascinated along with their sweet personalities. The parent pair are a black hen and red cock. The original owner told me it was the only way to produce the "silvers" as he called them.
> So I am leaning more and more toward breeding mother and son and seeing what I get. Since the daughter is a normal red like the cock bird I suspect all I will see from that mating are reds but again I could be proved wrong.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the input. I really do appreciate it.


Yip, if the original breeder told you to breed these 'silvers' from black and red, you can be completely certain that the 'silver' is in fact ash-red spread (sometimes called lavender, though that name is also used in other breeds to mean milky blue).


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