# Urgent help with the Paramixo virus



## ercprc (Jul 27, 2008)

Good day. Last week my young racers got infected by paramixo virus this morning i had to kill 10 of them. Last year i had the same problem about 40 died with in a month. I really need help with any tips or suggesting medications or treatment thanks alot


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How do you know that's what it is? Salmonella can have similar symptoms. Please don't be so quick to kill them.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi ercprc,

There are much better ways to deal with infectious disease than killing; after all when humans have an outbreak of contagious illness we don't deal with it by killing the infected. We here at this forum assume that you truly care for your pigeons and want the best for them, that they are not a kind of "livestock" to you.

First of all segregate your birds as quickly as you can. If you can get them all into individual boxes so much the better, otherwise separate them into the largest number of groups ( with the smallest number in each group) you can handle. Infection time for virus is very short, on the order of a few days of exposure, but exposure requires person to person contact. (Remember to wash hands when handling birds, between birds). Bacteria requires more time, on the order of a couple of weeks, but the means of transmission is far easier. The ones you seperate may well be the ones that survive.

Second if you can, try to get a vet to give you a postmortem diagnosis. That can run anywhere from $100- $300 dollars, but it tells you exactly what you are dealing with. At the present time, you are losing birds and you are very much in the blind as to what the problem is.

Third many pigeons can and do survive viral infections, if that is what it is, with supportive care. Hand feeding, heating pads or heat lights, antibiotic to ward off secondary infections. Takes a lot of work, but you get to keep your birds. If you kill them, you end up with zero.

Fourth, if you can give us a accurate description of the signs and symptoms you see in the birds and the time between symptom appearance and death, the members here can try to help with a diagnosis and some possible remedies. As Charis pointed out, diagnosis is always difficult and it is a terrible waste of time and resources to assume one type of disease when it is really another.

Best,


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi Grimaldy,

I'm curious about something. You mention that infection time for viruses is a few days. Does "infection time" mean the time from exposure to showing of symptoms?

I had a juvenile at the end of last year who I picked up because she looked weak and had her feet tied up in hair/thread. She had polyuria from the beginning, but I had no other reason to suspect PMV. After she was with me for at least a month, she suddenly started stargazing. At the time, I had had no other PMV birds for at least a couple of months, and even so, those birds are always kept in a separate area (behind a closed door).

Have you or has anyone else experienced a pigeon incubating PMV for such a long period? I've heard one other rehabber say she had a juvenile who showed no signs of PMV (and was exposed to no others) who suddenly developed symptoms after being inside for a month.

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

The only thing I can add to the excellent advice given is that, once you have separated the obviously sick birds from the apparently healthy birds, keep a close check on the healthy birds and, if there are no symptoms shown among them in say 4 - 6 weeks, then vaccinate them against PMV and Pox (and Paratyphoid if possible).

John


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## ercprc (Jul 27, 2008)

We have around 500-600 races. Last year we won the big races ranging from 600km too 1080km so its obvious that its not just about killing. The pigeons get the best medication daily but still they get paramixo and some get a wet pox in the mouth,
thanx


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi jenfer,

It has to do with the make-up of a virus; basically a strip of DNA in a capsule of protein, often but not always with an envelope of lipids. Once shed from the host, they can not exist outside the host for more than hours before they deteriorate. Since virus has no means to propel itself to a new host it must rely on being carried along by wind, air or unwitting hosts and carriers. (So becareful about sneezing on your loved ones when you have a cold). Bacteria on the other hand can hang around for days and months until they run out of food. They can also go into spore form which extends their reproductive life for years.

As virus particles are much smaller than bacteria, there is really no way to know when a prospective host becomes exposed and infected by them. Moreover there seems to be no way to know when a prospective host is exposed to either bacteria or virus and the time symptoms appear. Some people carry certain kinds of virus around for years without ever knowing they were infected. Other kinds move with lethal speed. But knowing something about how virus is transmitted allows one to break the link by rapid quarantine when they do show up.

Anyway I hope this helps.
Best,


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

ercprc said:


> ..... but still they get paramixo and some get a wet pox in the mouth,
> thanx


How do you know this?


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi again jenfer.

Charis I believe has spent a lot of time and effort on this subject and should be along soon. Basically the "stargazing" is a symptom of a neurological or nerve system injury. There are several bacteria that attack the meninges or tissue layer around the brain and nerves and can and do produce similar signs, not to mention pre-existent trauma.

If you are going to run with a conclusion of PMV, that certainty requires definitive testing. This virus has no envelope so hemagutination is out. DNA is the gold standard but expensive.


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## ercprc (Jul 27, 2008)

Ive been breeding with pigeons for the last 43 years. Im a four time union champion and ended up last year 2nd this is the first year i get paramixo this bad


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> There are several bacteria that attack the meninges or tissue layer around the brain and nerves and can and do produce similar signs, not to mention pre-existent trauma.


My vet told me that clostridium can produce similar neuro symptoms to PMV. Do you know which the other bacteria are?



> If you are going to run with a conclusion of PMV, that certainty requires definitive testing. This virus has no envelope so hemagutination is out. DNA is the gold standard but expensive.


Expensive testing is out considering the number of pigeons I pick up. Even lead testing is relatively expensive ($75). The best I can do is try to rule out other possibilities (like the clostridium or whatever other bacteria), since that is inexpensive to do (esp. if I learn how to ID the bacteria myself under the microscope).

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Clostridium, Staphloccoci, certain members of Escherichia are the most common endotoxin producers that affect humans and animals. It is the toxin they produce that attacks the nervous system. So when giving antibiotic for any one of them the physician has to consider the release of endotoxin and also give antidote. Otherwise you kill the bacteria and the patient dies from the toxin release.

Identification of viral infection that is dependable and within the price range of the average person is not yet available. There are some cheap DNA kits that law enforcement uses, but these too are not available below $3,000 and up. Even fresh blood is difficult to obtain quickly for hemoglutin testing and you still need a centrifuge.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Well ercprc,

You just might be mistaken. You might want to take a little of that prize money, haul one of your freshly dead birds to a good vet and ask him for a post-mortem.

You might be surprised!


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Grimaldy,

Very interesting. So with clostridium, for example, you're saying the bird would need something additional to the Flagyl used to kill the bacteria to counter the associated toxin release? What would that something be?

Also, I asked the vet about DNA testing for PMV, and he said he hasn't heard of it. He does the HIA test ($50), but you're saying it's not accurate? Can you provide more info?

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi jenfer,

There is a pretty good general discussion of Endotoxin, which is the subject you and I are discussing, on Wikepedia which gives a general description of the problem. Needless to say, several bacteria that produce endotoxins, for which there are no antidotes and the reason is found in found the toxins which are produced. 

A fairly common one in pigeons is Streptococcus bovis, which the pigeon's immune system can often deal with but the release of the endotoxins result in the pigeon being unable to fly. In the one case that I had, I believed it was S. aurelius, a gram positive infection arising out a fishing line injury to the feet, which cleared up quickly with Amoxycillin, but the release of endotoxin incapacitated the bird's flight ability. It has been about a year now and the birds is able to only make short flights.

On the question of viral DNA, take a look at "Microbe" magazine, a publication of the American Microbiologist Society. The print copy, rather than the online copy, show advertisements for these instant array analyzer machines, which for only a few hundred thousand dollars, no lab should be without. It gives an almost instant readout of the complete chemical and biological molecular makeup of any, or just about any, microbe, virus, yeast, etc., including the DNA sequence. There are also DNA synthesizers that do the same thing at about the same price. Shows you where microchip technology has gone.

It is unlikely a veterinarian would want to make that sort of an investment in his or her clinic. I notice most do not have ultrasound scanners and x-ray machines have only become affordable within the past 10-15 years. However since cheap DNA technology is becoming a necessary item for law enforcement agencies, I suspect within a few more years they may be affordable as well.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> If you are going to run with a conclusion of PMV, that certainty requires definitive testing. This virus has no envelope so hemagutination is out. DNA is the gold standard but expensive.


I've read elsewhere (here, for example: http://www.buffalohookbill.org/avian_viruses_overview.pdf) that PMV *is* enveloped. 



> It is unlikely a veterinarian would want to make that sort of an investment in his or her clinic.


No, but wouldn't they just be sending the sample out to Antech (or whatever lab)? It's not like they are running the titers in house, either (and most vets send out bloods and urine too). 

Jennifer


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

You are right, paramyxoviridae are enveloped, orthoveridiae are pleomorphic. I must say that I do not see that reference in the website you point to. I guess I am thinking of the PBFD, no envelope.

Anyway I note that the good doctor recommends DNA "probes" for positive ID. It is not clear to me that "probes" for DNA are commercially available anywhere for PMV or any of the influenza virae. Assuming you could sequence the sample, and that would take a PCR sequencer, a probe that would pick up and illuminate viral DNA would sure do it.

But the problem is rather academic; after you make a positive ID on the viral infection, what follows from that? The number of antiviral mediciations are few and expensive and it is not clear at all that they will perform the same way in birds. I have tried Oseltamivir in a few cases of PBFD, but who can say that the outcome in a few cases had anything to do with the drug?


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