# Pierpont-Fistula and Injury



## Pidgey

I got a badly hurt pigeon Friday evening. It must have gotten hit by a hawk or had some run-in with a very sharp object. It's had this wound for long enough that the crop had formed a fistula--a scarified tunnel to the outside that has its own "lips." If I had to guess, I'd say that it occurred almost two weeks ago. Somehow, the bird has managed to survive since then by way of eating and drinking several times the normal amount to compensate for the leakage.

I've sutured the fistula closed (it was about 3/8" in diameter) although that's not the final solution for that but it's not as important at the moment as stabilizing the other portion of the wound. It is the size of a silver dollar and affects mostly the left breast. When I found him, the exposed breast muscle was covered with mud, essentially from crop contents that had flowed down his chest from the fistula. I even found seeds packed between the skin and the breast below the lowest point of the wound.

How on earth this pigeon has lived this long with this damage I will never understand. You would have thought that the infection alone would have gotten him long before now. He's actually doing okay although I've never had to deal with a wound that was this old and had been so dirty.

Although his ceres are beginning to whiten, I can tell by the feathers that he's barely past being a squeaker. He's had a hard life to this point. If anyone has had experience with a chest wound like that and how to help heal it the fastest, I'd appreciate any suggestions. It began with a rotten meat smell that I've finally gotten rid of and I've got him on Baytril to boot but that wound is nasty.

In order to keep him from messing with the dressing, I finally taped his feet together and then taped them around his tail and wing feathers to keep him stable. He really doesn't like that, but he's a real problem pigeon. I have to say that when I brought him home, I sat with him in my hands and just watched him for an hour trying to figure out whether to put him to sleep or not. He was just so lively and normal acting that I couldn't do it. When you add to that how the case with Snyder was going, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. If he had the heart to make it this far, I just have to try.

By the way--I named him "Pierpont" after the store that he was in front of. And here are the pictures. These are not for the faint of heart, by the way. In the first exam picture, you can also see the caked mud on the raw breast muscles--you just can't tell that those are breast muscles:

First Exam:



And initial treatment:



Pidgey


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## pigeonmama

Oh, Pidgey,
You sure have more courage than I have ! How's about flushing area with a diluted antibiotic solution, something picked up from hardware/feed store, and really diluted, then let area dry well. As to keeping the bird from undoing all of your hard work, tape his wings to avoid stretching and pulling your sutures and the bird's skin, and maybe fashion a little Elizabethan collar for him, like the vet would do for dog/cat.
This poor bird,  , I can't imagine what it must have been like for the poor thing, til Uncle Pidgey found him and made life a little easier. If you can think of any supplies I can help you with, let me know.
The Carpetbagger


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## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey,

There's just no rest for those intending to be wicked. What a horrible wound. I'm sending you a link from a recent thread where Cynthia posted alot of valuable information on antibiotics and wounds.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11087&highlight=puncture+wound

Here's the link inside the link that she provided:

http://www.worldwidewounds.org/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html#

Sorry you didn't get your R&R, but this bird needs you badly  

Thank god for you Pidgey,

fp


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## Feefo

This is how Helen (Nooti) treated Josefina. Josefina is still with me today.




> The injury was to her crop which had been torn open and the vet team had stitched it up.
> 
> It looked to be a good job at first glance but a few days later as Laura, (my vet) and I were examining her, the stitched wound just fell apart and the most awful rotting smell filled our nostrils.
> 
> It seemed that the original vet team had stitiched up the outer skin - but not the crop lining, so as she had been eating seed it had slipped through the hole in the crop lining and lodged between the lining and the outer epidermis. (skin)
> 
> The resulting mess was horrifying as tissue became infected and died. Laura pulled a stinking, necrotic plug out of the wound which measured an inch across and tapered to 2 inches long. You could see right through into both chambers of the crop. She had never seen anything so bad before and her first thought was to put Josephine to sleep.
> 
> However I asked if there was any way we could try to heal this and Laura's thinking cap came up with the idea that we would put her on nil by mouth and inject fluids IP twice a day to maintain the major organs. Also inject antibiotics daily as close to the wound as possible, and flush the crop twice daily with saline and Metronidazole. An assessment for surgery to finally close the wound would be made in 4 days time.
> 
> This method was so successful that by the time the day came for surgery the wound had healed so well that three quarters of it had closed by itself. So we put surgery on hold - in fact it never went ahead and a week after we nearly euthanased her she was well enough to start taking food and drink by mouth again.
> Now she is a fine healthy pidge - only her crop capacity is slightly compromised, that's all.


As far as I remember the antibiotic injected was Synulox (Clavamox). 

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Oye...

Gosh Pidgey, you are an inspiration...



Phil
las vegas


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## Pidgey

Thanks, all, for your info! This is a complicated enough injury that I'm going to try to get an appointment with the vet today and get those dressings and whatever else is suggested. 

After reading the link about the hydrocolloid dressing, it seems the keel wound is the worst for the moment. It looks as though that type of bandage will probably be very helpful here. That, and I think that I probably need to design a special swingset that will hold him up without pressure on the keel or wound. 

Actually, he can stand just fine but I think we need a lot more restraint. I might end up going with a collar to keep him from picking and something like a swing but low enough for him to either stand or sag as the mood strikes. Right now, he's laying in a pillow-formed towel and I lay him on first one side and then the other.

He grunts at me everytime I walk by and so I give him a drink and the food's always in front of him. He's got a good appetite and almost always goes for a little water so nutrition and hydration are not a problem, at least.

There also seems to be a knot around the left shoulder that's covered by perfectly good skin. I'm hoping that that doesn't turn into the kind of thing that happened to Josefina, but we'll just have to see.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

This is Boddy and Ridewood's injury harness, could be the basis for an adapted design?


http://www.everythingforpets.com/injury_harness.pet/use.id.5.item_id.1267.dept.162/ 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Cynthia,

That's a pretty nifty looking device there and that pigeon has the funniest expression--"Would you PLEASE just snap the %#[email protected] picture and get me the &*%$ OUT OF HERE!"

I got an appointment with the vet in an hour (10:30 AM) so we'll see what all we can get done. He'll probably want to do a more complete closure of the crop and I sure hate to see the little fellow get that added on but this vet does know what he's doing so I'll acquiesce. Of course, it probably won't bother the bird if he's under a general. I would have at the house IF that had been the only injury but this is too much.

Pigeonmama,

Well, if'n ya' gonna' be'a carpitbaggin' dohn' heah' an'at carpitbag's a' filt ta' thuh' brim' with'n vetnary fixin's, then thuh' carpitbag's welcohm' but ah' reckon' yo' carpitbag's plum filt wid' yo' nothuhn' butt-butts! Beware Yankees bearin' giffs, mah' granpappy oleways tole' me! 

But, in 'cordance with Suthuhn' gentilitillitee (sumpin' lahk' that), ah' appreeshiates' thuh' offah'!

Suthuhn' Pidgey (to the last!)


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## TAWhatley

OMG! That poor pigeon! It never ceases to amaze me the horrific injuries our beloved pigeons can withstand. I hope the vet visit is a huge success.

Terry


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## pigeonmama

Pidgey,
Would you like some suture material? Self absorbable or silk?
Daryl
P.S. Had a hard time understanding your southern accent.


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## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey,

Think that same sling is available @ Jedd's online (wholesale) and in catalogue
both retail and wholesale. So you'd have to give a call, might havta tok northern on phone.....

Try this link for catalogue info:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=89&SubCategoryID=1020&ProductID=4178

For splints:

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=89&SubCategoryID=1020&ProductID=4176

fp


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## Pidgey

All,

Yes, the vet visit went well. I haven't had to suture anything like that before because most of the cuts I've seen weren't in a place that had the propensity for tension that a keel seems to have. When a cut goes longitudinally down the keel (and you'd think you'd see a lot more of those as it's a vulnerability in any kind of head-on scrape or belly-flop crash), the skin wants to separate outward from the center in the worst way.

The edges of the skin didn't seem to have the elasticity to handle the tension of being pulled together Saturday when I checked it out. What the doc did that I hadn't thought to do, was to push in with the scissors CLOSED all the way around the wound and then open them up to break the fascia. Fascia is the membranous, elastic webbing that forms as connective tissue in the body. So, the trick to sewing up the wound was to break enough of that webbing to free-up the natural elasticity of the skin. After doing that, a monkey could have sewn it up, but I didn't know to do it so having sutures wouldn't have helped me at all, or, more to the point, little Pierpont.

Anyhow, the vet basically said that the dehydration factor of the breast muscles was the worst and that's why it needed sewing up. Now, I expect that the hydrocolloid bandage would have worked in the long run but ultimately the skin that would have been generated would have been featherless scar tissue so this was undoubtably better.

Also, they didn't put little Pierpont under for this. He was one mad pigeon when they were through but he'll get over it--living with pain is better than dying under narcotic dreams any day of the year when you're young! I'm fully expecting a week of wing-flipping after that little episode. The doc said, by the way, that they really don't mind much when you're sewing up their crops but they get a little testy when you're sewing up the skin--it's apparently more sensitive. 

Oh, and by the way, for a pricing comparison this only cost $45 so it was very informative and cheap at the same time. Every time I go, I always go back to watch or help when possible and ask all the questions that I can think of, so I see this cost as an educational investment. Whenever I see a nuance of technique that I feel is worth sharing, I'll always bring it here for ya'll. Isn't it funny, the difference between how I had originally planned to manage the healing processs in this case and how the vet did it? Shortcuts and tricks. It's all know-how.

Pigeonmama,

The vet actually gave me a bunch of non-absorbable sutures that he figures a hospital dumped on them and they'll never use. What have you got--an inexhaustable supply of the stuff? Are you in the medical field and have easy access to such materials? I do thank you for the offer and now I might have a better idea what to actually do with them (sutures) but in all fairness, if I'd had them before this, I'm sure I would have botched the job.

Pidgey


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## Reti

Well done, Pidgey.
And great news the pijie will be fine.

Reti


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## pigeonmama

Pidgey,
I'm a nurse, work obstetrics and endoscopy, so can always get a suture or two for a good friend.
I had a pigeon about 30 yrs ago, a little helmeted cock, who had free range outside during the day, and flew right in to the house and in to his cage when it started to get dark. Well, Henry never left the area, but, one day went up missing. I found him under the stairs, inside the garage one day. He'd been bitten in the breast, right in to the crop. I took him to the vet, and held him diring the repair, cried through the whole thing, and almost passed out, but held him myself. I also hold my animals for euth. If any one has a pet to be put down, and they won't stay with their pet for this, I will go to the vet's for them. Just can't stand the thought of someone saying " It's O.K. to go and I love you" These animals even end up buried at my house if their owners don't arrange for something rather than disposal by the vet's office
Well, back to Henry, he did fine, lived to be an old fellow, always remained friendly. He died one night , in his cage, not even a sign of struggle.
I know this bird will do fine now. Keep us all updated, pictures and messages, and give him a big kiss for me.
Daryl


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## Pidgey

Pigeonmama,

The kiss is gonna' wait until we've cleaned up a bit, but here's the Post-(photo)-Op showing the sewn up chest:



Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Wow, Pidgey, what a difference. He looks great and hopefully will be fine in a short while. Can't believe the price difference. Forty-five bucks, unreal. Maybe we should start shipping to you....just kidding


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, you're "da man". I'm pulling for Pierpoint. Just got back from the vet myself - took Mr. Humphries (with the two broken legs and claw foot). This morning when we were feeding him we noticed blood on the counter. His knee joint (where the bandaged foot was) had what looked like a piece of skin torn almost off. The vet said it was a pressure sore, much like a bedsore, because he has been so confined for the past 4 weeks. Said he needed a "fluffy" bed to reduce the pressure when he is laying down. Said tear up a lot of newspaper and put that in his bed. I did that and tore up a lot of tissues too and the little rascal jumped right in there. She did take his foot bandage off and his foot looks straight. But, she also said he could be released next week! The poor little guy still can't stand up straight and is being one stubborn little thing in learning how to eat. Anyhow, we're going to keep him a few months longer to make sure he's ok. 

I had never heard of the newspaper bit for pressure sores so thought I'd share that info. 

Take care.


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## Pidgey

Lady Tarheel,

I usually put them on a towel when they're too busted up to stand although I got one in with a shattered wing yesterday and had to "southern engineer" another way around it.

I tried that broken wing wrap that is shown on one of the links in here but I couldn't get it to thrust the wing forward enough to give the bird a chance to gain wing function back. I seriously doubt that he'll ever fly again because the radius and ulna are both involved but I've got him stabilized now in such a way that if it can heal--it'll heal in the right position, I think.

If you looked over the top, you'd see that the broken side didn't project as far forward (with wings folded) by a long shot so it's important to get them where they will. Otherwise, the fragments won't have a chance to knit separately so articulation of the distal joint (wrist) is compromised.

I know if I took him to the vet, they'd X-Ray and faint. The muscle is very bruised and that's got to go down as well. He may end up like Mr. Squeaks but I sure hope not. He's a banded homer with a Jedds band so they'll tell me who the owner is in a day or so.

Anyhow, because I couldn't get him walking properly without the bandage getting messed up, I made him an impromptu sling. I'll upload a picture here in a little bit and edit this post to include the link. I tried to make it extremely comfortable with no pressure points, certainly none on the feet (haha!).





Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Pidgey,

In regard to Pierpoint: As usual, great job! I love the education I'm getting from your posts.

The post-op picture of him: Ouch, that does look like it hurt, but it looks so much better then before.

Does Pierpoint have a chance at being released back to he wild when he has healed?


Treesa


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## Pidgey

Treesa,

You betcha'! That little scamp COMPLAINS about EVERYTHING. You don't even get in the same room with him that you don't hear: "GRUNT! GRUNT! GRUNT!"

If you "freeze" and don't move, he'll shut up. Bat an eyelid, though, and "GRUNT! GRUNT! GRUNT!"

I swear, he'd complain if'n he were hung with a new rope! Realistically, if I keep him too long, I'll have to "soft-release" him when the time finally comes. His feathers are going to have to grow back and his other feathers are messed up so I really ought to keep him until they're molted out--that shouldn't be but about... two months?

But I think he'll probably be a fully functional bird in awhile. I guess we'll have to see how well that breast muscle performs. It was seriously degraded but he's also a very small pigeon anyway so they've usually got a heckuva' thrust-to-weight ratio and, therefore, have plenty to spare. He's certainly got the "inner fortitude" to survive on his own.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

Did you consider the lady's hose/sock idea put forward a few days ago? That works gently to keep everything in place.

My vet bandaged up a pigeon with a broken wing so tight it just lay in a miserable heap . The person that brought it to me considered asking for it to be euthanased rather than have it in such an unhappy situation for any length of time. The elaborate bandaging was done, apparently, because the pigeon (Suki) got the bandage off. When I received Suki I replaced all the bandages with a single band of micropore to immobilise the wing, that worked very well and when John took her back to the vet for an examination the vet agreed it did the job. If it had needed additional support then I would have done the pantyhose thing.

They take a couple of hours to adjust their balance to being bandaged.

The sock also works well as a harness, as the Braveheart story (and photo) shows. http://www.redroselofts.com/braveheart.htm 

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

Cynthia, 

Yeah, I tried that but I couldn't get the symmetry to work out properly. One of my vets told me with my last bird that had a broken wing was that the prognosis is pretty good if they only break one bone in that section (either the radius or ulna) but not when they break both. That's pretty bad.

What happens is that all of the muscles around the two bones tend to spasm/contract and slowly draw the bone fragments together, I guess. When that happens, it's tough for them (the two bones) to remain separate from each other in the healing process. If they join, then the distal joint (wrist) will not be able to swing outward. My vet showed me that the (post-healing) test was if you can pull the wing outward and the tip feathers extend to a reasonable amount of their normal extension.

When I tried the various ways of stabilizing this bird's wing in the folded position, you could see from above that the forward curvature that they were not symmetrical by a significant amount. This was due to the "collapse" of the section with the broken radius and ulna. So, I ended up with a version that has a tape loop from around the entire broken wing to the forward edge of the good wing to provide a slight forward traction. Also, I taped around both wings and tail with a 3/4" wide piece of masking tape to help thrust the wrist forward. By these two points of "traction," I'm hoping to keep the fragments in line enough to heal separately.

Will it all work? Hell if I know, but we'll see how bad it is in two weeks. I'm pretty sure that it's not too tight but it is extremely immobilized, mostly by way of tape rigidity. The thing that I'm mostly worried about is the blood supply to the wingtip tissues but there's very little to be done about that but wait and see.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Pidgey said:


> But I think he'll probably be a fully functional bird in awhile. I guess we'll have to see how well that breast muscle performs. It was seriously degraded but he's also a very small pigeon anyway so they've usually got a helluva' thrust-to-weight ratio and, therefore, have plenty to spare. He's certainly got the "inner fortitude" to survive on his own.
> Pidgey


I'm glad to hear that the bird is grunting away, great sign! He definitely is fighting to live, especially since you mentioned that he is barely grown up.

Now, I'm going to explain the growth, not to be a smart ***, but just for your information: 

If the injury has been going on for more then two weeks, then the reason he is a small pigeon may be because an injury of this magnatude compromised his growth. He may still have been in the growth spurt when injured. It took everything he had to try to rebuild and heal cells, when at the same time he may have been trying to lay down new growth cells. Pierpoint couldn't do both, at the same time, he only had enough energy to try to attempt healing, so his maximum growth wasn't achieved. Given his condition and maybe substandard food, it makes sense.

Now that he is in your capable hands he will do well! If you had gotten him a few weeks ago, and was able to provide him with healing help, and good food, he would have reached his full size. I know that is neither here nor there....just an explanation, I'm just glad he found you when he did!

Treesa


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## Pidgey

Yeah, I've wondered about that. There's no way of knowing how old he is except that those feathers on top of his head have those funny colored edges that I've never seen in an adult pigeon. The vet didn't think that the injury was much more than a week old, which surprised me because the fistula looked like it had been there forever.

I also found this morning (his first fecal) that he's got a slight case of roundworms as well as some coccidia so the poor fellow has REALLY had a bad month! He's definitely had to channel a lot of resources towards survival instead of growing.

I also see now that he's been so used to drinking more than the normal amount of water to get enough down that now he's got a drinking problem! I'm going to have to start rationing it to him to get him normalized. It's got Baytril in it so he really needs to moderate it. I guess I'm going to have to get him to AA.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Poor baby, he does have a lot of issues, and that is the norm when a bird is stressed.

If he is still a "drinking fool" then he is still dehydrated and trying like all get-out to replenish the loss of fluids in his tissues and organs. 

There are several homeopathic products for severe dehydration. I don't know if it is too late to try this, but the product Cinchona helps get the moisture back in tissues and fluids back in system. Just a thought....and of course probiotics..but not if he is on antibiotics, but he's probably in need of some gut bacteria.

Treesa


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## Pidgey

Is that (Cinchona) something that I can get at a normal health food store? His poop was looking pretty good until he started keeping the water in and now I see a lot more urine. It's only been a day and a half since full closure so I don't think that's unexpected. 

I should probably take the Baytril out of the water and dose it directly with a metering syringe so that he can drink all he wants without overdoing it until he gets over that. That deal didn't show up until lunchtime today.

If I shift to straight dosing at intervals, I can give probiotics off-shift, right?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Yep, you can get that at most health food stores, like Wild Oats, or Mothers Market.

Baytril kills good bacteria as well as bad, so probiotics will be needed off shift, but won't that render the Baytril useless? I've never done that..why don't you meter the Baytril first and see if that helps. I wouldn't start the probiotics until he is off the Baytril, or someone knows if it can be used on off shift.

How long will he be on the Baytril?

Treesa


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## Pidgey

Doc only said for a week so that's not too bad, anyway. Yeah, I vaguely remember some discussion on here about antibiotics and gut bacteria. I know they can and will wipe out good bacteria but I didn't think that providing an ongoing replacement of gut bacteria affected the efficacy of the drug in the body, as such...

Hmm... something to research I guess.

But you sure don't want to let them have grit with Baytril, I think. I think there's some confusion about antibiotics and grit. Some antibiotics are not affected or bind to calcium and some are and do. In the formulary (I think), it tells that kind of stuff. And I don't think all antibiotics are hard on gut bacteria, either, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> Doc only said for a week so that's not too bad, anyway. Yeah, I vaguely remember some discussion on here about antibiotics and gut bacteria. I know they can and will wipe out good bacteria but I didn't think that providing an ongoing replacement of gut bacteria affected the efficacy of the drug in the body, as such...
> 
> Hmm... something to research I guess.
> 
> But you sure don't want to let them have grit with Baytril, I think. I think there's some confusion about antibiotics and grit. Some antibiotics are not affected or bind to calcium and some are and do. In the formulary (I think), it tells that kind of stuff. And I don't think all antibiotics are hard on gut bacteria, either, but I could certainly be wrong about that.
> 
> Pidgey


I think there are different schools of thought on that. For myself, ( a human you know ), my doctors have advocated using probiotics during usage of antibiotics....I've seen in Ray'nJudy's post the same that they advocate giving concurrently. That way, you don't get as wiped out by the anti-biotic.

On the grit, I was under impression that if it was real gravel, it was fine to give w/anti-biotic...ie, the small granite type...hope so
 

fp


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## Feefo

> But you sure don't want to let them have grit with Baytril, I think. I think there's some confusion about antibiotics and grit. Some antibiotics are not affected or bind to calcium and some are and do


Thanks Pidgie, I wasn't aware that Baytril was one of the drugs affected by calcium!

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon

So, I read here that the granite gravel was alright to use with anti-biotics, as opposed to the "soft" grits, does anyone no for sure that this would be true?

fp


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## Pidgey

I've no idea what's in granite! Bird's stomach acid is pretty powerful stuff and if there's any calcium in there, they could certainly break it down unless it was vitrified with some other glassine component like silica. Granite is an igneous formation so will have to look into that. But, it's probably more complicated than that due to not knowing if the grit manufacturer "doctored" the mix with any limestone for the sake of adding calcium.

I think it's probably just best to remove grit when in doubt. It's also best not to use Baytril-treated water to mix with Kaytee because there's enough calcium in the Kaytee to bind the Baytril.

I'll see if I can find something today more definitive about all that and we really need a formulary in our resources section anyway so maybe we can make an all-inclusive thread there with respect to that.

Pierpoint, by the way, is getting more explorative on the table so he's doing fine for the moment. I don't see any evidence of spreading infection (that's one jagged cut!) and he's starting to fly the two feet back to the table from my hand. I've got the homing pigeon with the broken wing hanging on the same table and I've caught Pierpont down there standing by him for company or curiosity, I don't know. 

He's probably talking to him, "what the &@%# are THEY doing to you? Look at what THEY did to me! Can you believe these people--what did we ever do to them?"

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey, 

This isn't the link that I was referring to however, I think it works here. A post from Amber:

In my experience, the grit is what the birds use to help 'hull' there food to make it digestable for them, the cuttlebone has the calcium. It is similar in consistency with oyster shell which is high in calcium. You can buy "Red grit" which is grit that has calcium added to it, but if it is just plain granite grit then there is no calcium in it, and you must fortify there diet with it. Some people dont, but especially if you have a female bird, it is very important to provide calcium. Hope this helps.

Amber 

There are no additives in F.Thijssen C.V.'s Sharp Stomach Gravel for Carrier Pigeons. "....is ground, washed, burned, clean, pure and without additions. Consequently no charcoal or ruddle." It remains in gizzard for many weeks as opposed to round gravel and does not affect the intestinal canal unfavorably.

I don't think they 'process' this grit, it simply helps grind seeds for digestion.
Think that is why the other post I read said it was OK w/anti-biotics.

fp


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## Pidgey

Well, shoot!

I'm reading everything and there is some conflicting info "out there" on Baytril and grit. As I've looked deeper into Baytril, it's Enrofloxacin and is considered one of the "big guns" of antibiotics. For human use, it's actually Ciprofloxacin so Baytril and Cipro are just about identical, I guess. Cipro is used to treat anthrax. Some of the racing pigeon stuff that I read said that the widespread use of Baytril in loft management as a precautionary is REALLY a bad practice. I only use it for specific birds and NEVER treat the entire loft "for the h*** of it" SO I'M INNOCENT!!!

Anyhow, I may have spoken out of turn about the Baytril because I've read too much racing pigeon stuff and sales blurbs. Looks like an in-depth research of the REAL information is in order, but I'd guess at this point that you're probably quite right, Feralpigeon.

Pidgey


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## pigeonmama

Pidgey,
Baytril is a wonderful drug if used correctly. Last I heard, the industrial poultry farms are planning on banning use of Baytril in chickens, those raised for food, and those for egg supply. Just something I heard recently.
Daryl


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## Reti

pigeonmama said:


> Pidgey,
> Baytril is a wonderful drug if used correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is. And it is very important to be used only if really needed. If used for every little thing the bacteria will develop resistance to it and then we will have some superbugs and no treatment for them.
> This goes for all antibiotics.
> 
> Reti


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## Pidgey

Thanks, Reti,

That's what I was getting at. As I work through the formulary, it's obvious that many of the lesser antibiotics often require specific labwork to assure successful results. That is, you need to type the bacteria of a suspected infection by gram-staining, microscopy and other esoteric labwork in order to get specific with an antibiotic that has "just enough" power to take on an infection. 

This approach assumes that you are able to identify a particular location on or in a pigeon that is the "ground zero" of an infection, never mind when a bird's gotten a crapload of pure dirt or filth in a wound and you've no idea what all various pathogens are included. With the vagaries of all that, it's no wonder that Baytril gets called into play all too often--it's a very big gun and that's why it works so well and everyone uses it too much. 

And most folks have no earthly idea whatsoever what else could be used with a given set of symptoms. A lot of the info that's "out there" on the internet is confusing and inexact. I keep finding misconceptions that I myself am harboring because of having read too much from folks that really didn't know what they were talking about. I'm getting to the point where I can't believe it unless I can't read it. Yeah, you read that right--there's no typo! I meant that if it's not written in pure medicalese, it's probably not reputable. 

On the practical side though, people won't stop using Baytril or even use it with restraint unless they have good, reliable information as to the alternatives in various cases. And that must include how to acquire those alternatives. It's easy to go to Chevita.com and go down the list of symptoms, diagnose and then medicate by the numbers. But I never dreamed it could be as complex as it really is until I acquired that vet book and started really getting into it. 

As comprehensive as the chevita diagnostic page seems to be, it falls horrifically short of the reality of how diseases present and how they are clinically diagnosed (lab). It's "shoot from the hip" at best and a sales job at the worst. Well, that's my basic impression at this point anyway.

And for the limited amount of rehabbers who regularly visit this forum (this means us), the use of Baytril is not a very big sin because we do use it bird by bird (I don't think I've gone through 4 ounces in as many years). Now, some of those large-loft racer folk who go through the stuff by the gallon, that's certainly not a good thing and there's a LOT more of them than us.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Excellent work Pidgey...!

Phil
las vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Update on Pierpont,

Over the weekend his sutures started coming unravelled and it was just about every one of them. I've never seen that happen before but they sure did. I had to re-stitch almost the entire bird back up. Now, it was probably a good thing they did because it revealed some necrotic tissue that was starting to stink and turn into something resembling partially dried boogers (descriptive, eh?). I cleaned out all that junk that I could find and bathed him in NeoSporin again.

I called the vet today to ask about that as well as that the flaps of skin had developed edges that were already completely sealed when I took him in one week ago. I told him that they had not changed nor had they tried to grow together from the first stitching. The vet said that they would eventually. I countered with it sure seemed to me like there's a lot of scar tissue on the edges. The vet went on to say that this bird didn't have a lot of skin left and that we couldn't trim much off to encourage a union for that very reason. 

I also asked if we should change from the Baytril to the Keflex (Cephalexin, a cephalosporin) and he thought that might be good to ADD in order to arrest the further advancement of necrotizing bugs. I think he sees it that way now because the poor bird was in such pitiful shape to start with and doesn't have excess flesh to allow losing much more.

Otherwise, Pierpont is just as feisty a pigeon as he's been so he's at least on a plateau and not going downhill although I got a good wing-flipping this morning! It's hard to tell, but I think his breast muscles are beginning to feel less hollow as well. He's certainly got plenty of appetite.

But I naively thought a week ago that his convalescence would just about be over by now. At this rate, it's going to be two or three weeks more before those actual wounds heal and I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to scrape between the stitches with a scalpel to debride enough of the scar tissue to allow for a union to form. Anybody have any experience with something like that?

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

[I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to scrape between the stitches with a scalpel to debride enough of the scar tissue to allow for a union to form. Anybody have any experience with something like that?

Pidgey[/QUOTE]



I would do that. Scar tissue does not heal and if it does (if enough healthy tissue is left in between) it will nor heal properly, there always will be a "weak point" left with a chace to reopen.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

For Cynthia,

Well, I guess it's okay to use Baytril however you want (with or without grit) because the text doesn't mention anywhere that there's an interaction. About all that I can find is that tetracyclines chelate with calcium and magnesium. Also, there is some mention that iron decreases the absorption of doxycycline substantially (doxycycline is one of the tetracyclines). Zinc interferes somehow as well. Other than that, I haven't found any other conflicts between antibiotics and minerals so far.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Well, Pierpont is continuing to recover. It's like watching kids grow up-if they're yours, you'd swear they're NEVER going to grow up but if you're an occasional visitor it always seems like difference is remarkable.

Here's a picture of the chest with the new sutures (nobody laugh, now!):



and here's the bird:



He's gotten heavily into the wing flipping now. I expect him to start flying over TO me to INITIATE the abuse any day now.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

It looks good, Pidgey.
Considering what he had and went through, it looks fabulous.
I am glad he is in good spirits too.
Well done.

Reti


----------



## pigeonmama

Pidgey,
Personally, I think you done good !! I can't imagine putting sutures in a critter I love as much as you do that little bird.
Daryl


----------



## Skyeking

Oh, Pierpont looks great! Any abuse he gives you now,look forward to it, it is a step in the right direction, whether it be verbal or physical.  

Thanks for sharing!

Treesa


----------



## TAWhatley

Well done, Pidgey! I think I see some blue ribbons for you in the embroidery or cross stitch competitions at your local fair .. maybe even needlepoint!

It truly is wonderful that Pierpont is doing so well!

Terry


----------



## snyder

Ive been wondering how Pierpont is doing now..I hope he is still making progress!


----------



## Pidgey

Snyder,

Oh, yes, he's been making progress, all right. It has been slower and different than I imagined, though. I guess that I'd have to say that the edges of the skin all the way around the big chest wound must have sealed off on the underneath side before I got him. Therefore, sewing him up across the chest ultimately just caused scabs underneath the outer skin that weren't able to get out until I re-opened the wound (not difficult as only the stitches were holding) and removed them. Underneath is a lot of sealed membrane that may shrink in time as long as I keep the two flaps sewn together and occasionally reopen to check the progress.

Another facet of the wound that I didn't find out until later was a hole going into the chest at the top of the left side. That hole is about 3/8" long by 1/8" wide and 3/4" deep. It also gets filled with debris that must be debrided occasionally or it'll get closed off in there and cause a constant source of infection. The only way to work on that is with forceps and an otoscope. It's tedious and I also use a huge 60 cc syringe repeatedly to flush about 2 cups of warm saline at a whack. We did it three full times (6 cups) this last Saturday.

The other hole in the crop is now down to about a 1/16" diameter. It occasionally gets a dewdrop on it when he drinks a full load of water and I'm pretty happy with that. Given the way that the other wounds have healed, I'd like to simply manage that particular aspect of the wound without actually surgically doing it right, yet, because all of the wounds so far have not been capable of healing "by first intention." This has become more of an ongoing "plastic surgery" deal where you actually need for something to take PLENTY of time to heal before going on to the next stage.

His attitude is still hilarious. I regularly get wing-flipped, bit and suffer what can only be the most profuse profanity known to pigeondom. The other birds always cover their beaks with their wings in incredulity when he gets going. He can fly fairly well now although he's a little low on stamina. His weight's slowly coming up--he's at 235 grams now (for his frame, I can't see him getting much over 300 at the most). He absolutely HATES being away from his friend, Jedd, a banded racer who shattered his wing near the proximal end of the radius and ulna. I did take him out into the loft for a look-see and he was a "kid in a candy store" so I really think that he just likes other pigeons in general.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Wow...

Good going there Pidgey...

Outstanding...!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Reti

Great job, pidgey.

He sounds like a funny guy, full of life. Bless his little heart.

Reti


----------



## snyder

That is awesome that he is doing so well. Its so amazing how dedicated you are to all the pigeons you have! Pierpont surely is one lucky bird and I hope that he makes a full recovery. Keep us updated about any new challenges you come across. Take care!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, his crop wound has completely sealed off now--there hasn't been the slightest dew-drop after drinking for a few days now. I finally de-stitched all the other wounds to let them do what they wanted. 

The last time that I stitched the chest flaps, there was a fine membrane of scar tissue over all the breast muscles and the keel. I was hoping that the juncture of the skin flaps and the membrane would move closer to the keel on both sides. When I de-stitched them, there was a growth of grayish debris that I guess was either the crap that builds up in the sides of big toenails (Eeewww!) or decomposing skin and scar tissue. As gross as that was, the junctures had, in fact, moved closer to the center. But I didn't feel that sewing it up again would do any real good because the flaps were getting just too pierced up and ready to fragment.

At this writing, they are "sucking in" to the chest and disappearing. At least the center section that's mostly scar tissue isn't appearing to stretch out. Actually, it may even be getting a tad smaller somehow. All in all, that area is about the area of a dime so I really should be very happy considering where we started from.

I'm using Hydrocolloid Gel (thanks, Cynthia, for bringing that to our attention) to pack the other hole up and that stuff's funny. After a long day, it starts looking like silicone caulking and you just pluck it out and replace it. Usually, he takes care of that himself but he's been so busy supervising my cleanup of the basement today that he's forgotten to mess with it. When I finally stop getting debris out of there, I'll sew it up unless it decides to close up on its own. That may yet happen, I just don't know.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey,


Wow...


Phil
lasvegas


----------



## Skyeking

I'm so glad to hear about Pierpont's increased healing going on with both his crop wound and his chest wound. That is positive.  Besides the topical treatment, is he still on antibiotics or are you allowing him to go solo?

His little body can now focus entirely on healing and laying down new skin and tissue cells of the chest....loads of nutrients are in order, of course.

....and I can just imagine what you're going to be in for once Pierpont can expend all his energy on you! LOL  

Glad to hear an update, Pidgey, thank you.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Pidgey the Poo,

So glad to hear that Pierpont is doing better and able to give you the much needed supervision and discipline that you truly require. Keep up the good work
Pierpont, it's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it  !

fp


----------



## Pidgey

All,

He hasn't been on antibiotics for a couple of weeks. Here's the latest picture:



His latest thing is RooKooing. He's just started doing that and is getting pretty doggone good at it although the pitch is unusually high because he's such a small bird.

Pidgey


----------



## Skyeking

Oh, this poor baby he has been thru so much. It does look a *whole lot better* then before, though.

I'm glad he is off the antibiotics, wow, he is going to direct all his attention to you now.

I'm sure he will really appreciate having other pigeons around, especially the hens, once he gets to join the flock! LOL


----------



## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, you just beat all! I look at those pics with those awful wounds and just can't imagine how you have saved him. Pierpont is one lucky little bird to have been found by you. You would make a terrific vet. maggie


----------



## pigeonmama

Pidgey,
I still say "you're my hero"  
Daryl


----------



## snyder

Wow, I still cant believe how well those holes closed up! That is very inspirational to see. Im glad the bird is healing so well! You really should be a vet! Keep up the good work!
Leena


----------



## Reti

Hi Leena,

nice to see you posting.

I agree, pidgey would make a great vet. Lucky pigeons that come his way.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

Reti said:


> Hi Leena,
> 
> nice to see you posting.
> 
> I agree, pidgey would make a great vet. Lucky pigeons that come his way.
> 
> Reti


 Yes, indeed...an AVIAN Vet...

WAY to GO, Pidgey! 

And I thought Mr. Squeaks had it bad! Well, he did but compared to Pierpont...! Can't wait to hear the latest updates on your recovering pijjies!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, thanks for the compliments but... uhh... it's been said before that the pigeons that come my way are generally very UNlucky to have gotten as sick or hurt as to require my help.

Pierpont is FINALLY beginning to grow feathers on his chest again. It is typical for the follicles to suspend their growing cycle when there's trauma or infection and I had expected them to kick in before now but they're going great guns now so I guess we're finally up to snuff. I haven't taken the last stitches out yet (they've been in a week now) but I will soon. I expect to find that some scab material has prevented complete closure but we're in the final stretch.

I also believe that previously unsuspected damage was done to something inside because I've begun to notice that he makes those grunting sounds even when he's flying. That must be why he talks so much--he can't help it! He'll fly away to keep from stepping on your hand and you'll hear a quacking sound like a flock of geese going over. I really don't think I should ever release him and I also think that as soon as he can either father or mother a clutch I should let him. I really want his/her DNA to stay in the gene pool as he's been such a tough trooper.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

*Wedding Bells for Pierpont*

Well, I've been putting Pierpont out in the loft every morning for the last couple of weeks and bringing him/her back in every evening. Usually, I just get him/her near the stairs and he/she flies up and in.

Today, I thought I might peek in and see what goes on when he/she gets up there. And I saw a tryst! As it happens, there's another pigeon that had had a broken wing (either the radius or ulna) that had come from the exact same area originally as Pierpont (they could be related although the one's really big and Pierpont is so small). Anyhow, there was tail-sweeping and then settling into a spot while Pierpont was preening the other one very tenderly.

I had to use my hanky! I guess this means that Pierpont (who's been two months healing now) has graduated to the loft at long last.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti

That is fantastic news, Pidgey.
You did an awsome job with this guy.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

I'm so glad to hear Pierpont has graduated to the loft and that he/she has found a mate. That bird has been thru so much.

All your wonderful and supportive care has made it possible for this bird to live out a happy life. Do you think Pierpont is a girl or a boy?


----------



## Pidgey

Treesa, 

I really don't have a clue except that Pierpont's neck is very slender and he/she grouses a lot. That usually means it's a hen but given his/her history I ain't bettin' the ranch until I see which one drops an egg.

As to the happy life, I've come to the conclusion that this bird isn't happy unless he/she's grousing. He/she's done more grousing now than all the other birds I've ever had have done together. Of course, he/she's had good reason!

Pidgey


----------



## NumberNine

Put the bird in front of a mirror. If it dances, then 50% chance it's a male. If it's quiet, then 50% chance it's a female.


----------



## pdpbison

So Pidgey,


Refresh our memories on what had been the course of meds with Pierpont and his-her injury?



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Phil,

Don't wanna' go back through the thread, huh? Oh, well, I first threw Pierpont on Baytril and then ended up going with a Baytril/Keflex combo. But you have to understand that Pierpont's chest smelled like rotting meat when we started. I had to do the meds above on the inside, immense amounts of NeoSporin on the outside as well as sickening amounts of debridement to stop the necrotizing rot. Maggots could have done a lot faster and better job, though, as nasty of a thought as that is. Every time that I sit and think of how far that bird's come, I'm still almost floored with amazement to how tough pigeons must be.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Ahhhh...okay...

I am not familiar with the "Keflex" but I recall it being mentioned recently.

Maggots, if one may cultivate sterile of them, or allow whatever of them to creep for a time on some clean cloth, have made a resounding come-back in people-medicine you know, after a long time of being negleted.

They are the best for some things. But they will 'jump' of course if frieightened and can sail clear across a room...Lol...


Great work there Pidgey ! 

And Pierpont!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Well, Pierpont's almost through moulting. Took these pictures this evening:





Brought him/her in from the loft today to get a weigh-in (320 grams) and to take the last stitch out that's been in there for a month. Pierpont was true to form and kept grousing almost the entire time. I've really missed that. Anyhow, you really can't tell that he/she ever had a wound.

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

*Terrific!*

Pierpont looks just wonderful! Hard to believe it's the same bird!! WAY TO GO PIDGEY!!!  

Still don't know if Pierpont is a HE or SHE???? Should be old enough by now???


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey,


Wow...!


What a great progress...!

(S)he looks wonderful!


How's the courtship going? Any nest making yet?

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Skyeking

Pierpont looks terrific, what a difference!

By that look in his/her eyes I can see he is temperamental, what a cutie! I love them when they are "feisty" like that, is that what you call grousing?

Keep us updated, and PLEASE DO let us know when the first egg drops, then we can stop all this he/she stuff.


----------



## dnrslucky1

OMG! Pidgy

I just read thru this whole thread! I don't know how you could have done all that! You are one amazing Pidgy lover! 

After seeing the first pictures, I was sure he wasn't gonna make it. I starting reading at the beginning, as this was the first time I had seen this thread! This is a very touching story, a true Miracle!

Then I seen the last pics of Pierpont and couldn't believe my eyes! He looks so proud and happy! I do hope Pierpont has a chance to parent some baby's,
he/she deserves it!

You are one very brave and determined person Pidgy!

Denise


----------



## Maggie-NC

Dear Doctor Pidgey

God bless you for what you have done for this little pigeon. Pierpont is truly beautiful. Even some vets would have given up. 

Maggie


----------



## TAWhatley

Great job Pidgey! Pierpont looks wonderful!

Terry


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I have REAL news now...

It seems that while I was away on this last trip to Oakland, CA, our little Pierpont had decided to lay eggs so Pierpont's a lady! A foul-mouthed one to be sure but a lady nonetheless. 

I still find it interesting that she paired up with a rescue from her same area (broken wing but can fly now). Come to think of it, they both have the same overall dark coloring... probably related... closely... OMG, she's not a 'lady' at all! Oh, the shame... ! What will the neighbors think?

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey,


Yup, it's a hell-of-a-note how hard it is TO tell sometimes, unless one does see them actually lay an Egg..!

Some you can guess right and take it to the bank...and many, well..they can fool ya!

Lol...

Should it now be 'Pierpointte'? Or 'Pierpointette'?

 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Skyeking

Thanks for the update on Pierpont, how nice you have a "feisty little female". 

Are you going to remove the eggs, just in case they are brother and sister?

Pigeons from the same clutch are naturally drawn to each other as they grow up.(male and female, that is)


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, there's no way of telling, really so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Actually, it would be more likely that he's the father, I think. If I recall, I got him (crap, I posted part of his story on some post on here somewhere) in early summer and initially kept him in a cage where he couldn't move the wing much. 

He'd only broken one bone of the two (radius and ulna) and so the prognosis for him flying again was actually pretty good. He was old enough at the time as to not be her particular generation and he's a heckuva' lot bigger. 

Of course, Treesa, you pointed out that Pierpont's probably so small (she's finally caught up quite a bit though--she's a hundred grams bigger'n Unie now) because of all the resources she had to use fighting injury and illness during her formative period. So, no knowing without DNA testing and I haven't acquired THAT lab equipment yet. Hmm... I'll check eBay this evening!

Anyway, I actually have a brother/sister pair of homers that have given me many wonderful birds--Unie's a direct descendant of theirs, by the way. So, I won't take away their eggs. I have wanted Pierpont to have a clutch early on because I still don't know how long she will live. One of the things that I could see in that deepest wound was a discoloration along the bone that may have been a colony of Aspergillus. If so, it could ultimately cause cancer and that's why I wanted Pierpont to know and enjoy the best that life had to offer as soon as possible. She fought so hard and she deserves it.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey, 


Can not Aspergillosis be cured even if infecting Bone?

Too, tell us more about your Endoscope? Make, Model, kind, cost, where got from...and so on...

I want to get one, and discussing it briefly will help me remember to do so!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pidgey

Well, Phil,

There's a difference between "Aspergillosis" and having a colony of Aspergillus in the body. Aspergillosis usually refers to a colony of Aspergillus that is on the surface tissue of the lungs, bronchi, that sort of thing, that usually causes severe respiratory problems. If you'll review in that big book, you'll read that there are many stages and presentations of that. When nodules form (and can be detected with radiography), they may need to be surgically removed. Sounds drastic, doesn't it?

While the advancing infection causing the overall Aspergillosis may be arrested with Itraconazole, Flucytosine and anti-fungals, even they usually cannot penetrate nodules that have formed. And Aspergillosis is one of those that produce the Aflatoxins, some of the world's most mutagenic (read: carcinogenic) substances so even if you kill the infection, you may yet have to deal with the mutated cells that can turn cancerous. There is a difference between the pathogen and the disease process, sometimes eradicating the one does not arrest the other.

Sometimes, they can colonize other places of the body as a result of a nosocomial infection, that is, they may occur as a consequence of a surgical procedure (nosocomial usually means "hospital acquired" by the way). This usually happens when the patient is immunocompromised and sufficient exposure occurs to favor the invading organism. 

It's actually a little known fact that the use of many antibiotics sometimes depresses the immune system in such a way as to INCREASE the likelihood of nosocomial infections. If you'll remember the Snyder case (the lady in Hawaii with the bird that had the esophageal damage), one of the vets that advised her (the one from the zoo) warned her about this very thing.

Anyhow, I couldn't tell if it was Aspergillus and so I don't know but I've understood the risk all along. That is why I have wanted her to have "a full life" as quickly as possible.

As to the otoscope, I think I used the Dr. Mom (cute, eh?) one featured here:

http://www.pro-otoscope.com/

I actually got a new one on eBay for maybe $5 off. Frankly, I also had a plastic one from Walgreens that I guarantee you could get from Wal-Mart, Eckerd's or anyplace like that for $10+tax. Sure, they're not as neat, not as professional looking but they'll get THAT particular job done (for anyone else reading this, I think Phil's referring to another current thread where I found throat canker in a sick nestling only with an otoscope down the throat--there was no sign in the mouth. Actually, though, I did use that same scope several times to peer into the deepest wound on Pierpont in order to debride it so the question here isn't really out-of-place).

The reason that I got the $40 model (+tax +shipping +spare parts) is because I wanted the connection for an insufflation bulb. That's like a bulb used on an old blood pressure cuff. It's supposed to be used VERY lightly to demonstrate movement in the eardrum of a human but you can also use it in pigeons to inflate the urodeum within the cloaca to examine for egg-binding, oviduct problems, tumors and the like. Since I've had experience with that already, I kinda' wanted to be prepared for it should it arise again.

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

*Hi Pidgey*

I know that Ms. Pierpont has had a tough row to hoe, so to speak, but I am definitely thinking positive for a long happy life! Odds have been beaten before! We're goin' for the GUSTO!!!


----------



## Skyeking

Pidgey said:


> Anyway, I actually have a brother/sister pair of homers that have given me many wonderful birds--Unie's a direct descendant of theirs, by the way. So, I won't take away their eggs.
> 
> *My two pets are brother and sister and have mated out of an emotional connection, but I won't let them have babies because of the likelihood of inbreeding problems. When I was little I had two pigeons that turned out to be brother and sister, before knowing it, they had two blind babies.*
> 
> 
> I have wanted Pierpont to have a clutch early on because I still don't know how long she will live. One of the things that I could see in that deepest wound was a discoloration along the bone that may have been a colony of Aspergillus. If so, it could ultimately cause cancer and that's why I wanted Pierpont to know and enjoy the best that life had to offer as soon as possible. She fought so hard and she deserves it.


*Please let us know when the eggs hatch, you will have to start a new thread, as this one is almost maximum capacity.*


----------



## pdpbison

Thanks Pidgey!


...for the indepth details on these two topics...

I have been SO buisy with things here I forget I even HAVE the 'Big Book'...!

Lol...

I will search the e-bay for an insufflating ontoscope...


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## dnrslucky1

Pidgy, I agree Pierpont DESERVES IT! Go Pierpont! 

Denise


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Poo,

Ms. Pierpont looks beautiful, and I might add, I'd never noticed how pretty her legs were before  !

You see, visiting Oakland had a beneficial outcome afterall  

feisty


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, for those of you who wonder how the kids are doing, here they are:



They outweigh their mother (Ms. Pierpont) by 33% already and they're not finished growing by a ways. They're around 400 grams (fully tanked, of course) and it'll be a couple of weeks before they're flying. Their father, Big Fella, isn't up to competing with Ms. Pierpont's fame so he's hen-pecked!

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Poo,

They are both so adorable and chubby as in huggable   !! Are you gonna keep them w/mom and pop or will you do a soft release into your feral flock?

fp


----------



## TerriB

What sweet, healthy babies! Ms. Pierpont has made a wonderful contribution to the gene pool. Major congratulations to you, Pidgey, on a most amazing piece of rescue and rehab!


----------



## mr squeaks

*What a couple*

of cuties, Pidgey! CONGRATULATIONS TO PIERPONT AND BIG FELLA!!


----------



## Skyeking

Oh.....aren't they darling? So Cute!  

Congrats to Ms. Pierpont (you have come a long way baby...  ) & BigFella on the hatching of their darling twins!  


from Skye, Sonic, and the gang!


----------



## TAWhatley

Darling babies! Congrats to the parents and the human grandparents!

Terry


----------



## pdpbison

Lovely youngsters!


When did they Hatch then?


Congratulations..! ( to the parents, AND to you! ) 


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pigeonmama

Does this mean Pidgey is now a grandpa?
Daryl


----------



## Pidgey

No, Daryl.

Grandpigeon.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Feralpigeon,

I'm going to have to release them. Lin says we can't keep any more and some need to go. When the trapper gets the hawk and things are safe outside, I'll incorporate them into the local feral flock. They're only a half-mile from where Pierpont and Big Fella originally came from, though. I've got quite a few feral flocks around me and I've had over a hundred eating in the backyard at one time.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

Pidgey said:


> *When the trapper gets the hawk *and things are safe outside, I'll incorporate them into the local feral flock.


I just read this whole thread and it took some time. I can't believe the good work you have done especially considering the injury your bird had when first found. You are an incredible birder. I was a little humbled by post #84. Where do you get so much information on birds anyway? 

But the reason I am writing is about the hawks. I do love my pigeon but I also think all creatures have a right to life and their way of life even though we may not like it sometimes. There is a quote from one of the regular contributors about how all beings love themselves. Very sweet. Also to the point. I guess if we allow it to be acceptable to exterminate the creatures that prey on the weaker species then one day God will exterminate us too.

Cameron


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## mr squeaks

*Not to worry, Camrron,*

I think you missed a post because I asked Pidgey about the hawk. He said the trapper would take the hawk far, far away and release him. He wasn't going to be killed.

Just hope the hawk doesn't decide that he had a good thing going and finds his way back!


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## Camrron

Many thanks Mr Squeeks,

You are right I missed a post. ....But there were so many to read!!! I really am sorry if any feathers were ruffled. My mistake. My philosophy stands though. God bless all.

Cameron


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## Pidgey

Oh, no, I'm not going to kill the hawk at all, but I think I will tease it for a minute or two, "Cooper's Hawk is sit-tin' in a trap... hit the trigger and the top went "snap!"... " You get the idea.

Anyhow, Camrron, as to your question about where the info comes from--I've got a somewhat extensive avian medical library and love to read from it but I usually research problems when they arise in my own flocks or the ones folks post on here. It's a hobby.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, she done it to me again--she slipped an egg through to hatching and now I've got another one of Pierpont's children out there. That was actually about a month ago and I kept an eye out to see how the little fellow was doing from time to time but didn't interfere much. I got the living crap beat out of me every time that I tried to pick the chick up because Pierpont is without a doubt the most... "energetic" or "enthusiastic" bird in the loft. 

Perhaps it is that she, more than any of the rest of them, recognizes just how fragile life can be and, therefore, tends more towards the overprotective side. Maybe I didn't make it clear up front--when I picked her chick up, she flew up to my hands and started going ballistic. I could probably have tried to leave the loft altogether and wouldn't have fared as well as a crow getting too near a mockingbird's nest.

Did I mention the raw, unfettered profanity during these episodes? Oh, my, but that pigeon's got a beak on her that would make a sailor blush! She hasn't changed one bit from the days when she had to have the never-ending surgeries. The verbal onslaughts alone when I would try to pick her latest chick up were discouraging enough--nobody, and I mean NOBODY, talks to me like that and gets away with it except her!

Anyhow, the chick seemed to disappear at about three weeks of age and try as I might, I couldn't find it. I had feared the worst but I had to go out of town again and was horribly busy at work complete with late nights. Well, a couple of weeks later I saw what I thought was a youngster and last night searched until I did find the little guy. Quietest chick I've ever seen--never a squeak in all this time to alert anyone (that would be me and Lin, I'm sure) that it existed. It can fly now and has the thickest feathers for a youngster that I remember seeing. It's as black as the first two were and can avoid me pretty well. I had to turn the lights off to finally capture it for a closer inspection.

So, for those of you who know the story, Ms. Pierpont is alive and well and hasn't lost one iota of her attitude, cunning and street smarts. 

Or her vocabulary.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather

Pidgey said:


> Well, she done it to me again--she slipped an egg through to hatching and now I've got another one of Pierpont's children out there. That was actually about a month ago and I kept an eye out to see how the little fellow was doing from time to time but didn't interfere much.
> *I got the living crap beat out of me every time that I tried to pick the chick up*
> *Did I mention the raw, unfettered profanity during these episodes?*
> 
> Pidgey


 I get that abuse just *checking* for a possible new egg or two under Pij'ette. Her pretty little pink beak? Sharp as a razor.  
All the while she's giving me what for, my reminder that she's biting the hand that feeds her, only falls on deaf ears. She *knows* she'll get fed whether she's naughty or nice.  
Sadie & Sam aren't nearly as aggressive as their Mom.

I wonder if this behavior *does* have something to do with their past, as Pij'ette was brought to me in a terrible state, where as Sadie & Sam were born in a secure environment with no worries, no injuries or illnesses.

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC

Glad to hear Pierpont is doing so well. 

Congratulations, grandpa.


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## mr squeaks

Atta pij, Pierpont! Keep up the good work!

I see you know that Pidgey is a slow learner and you have to keep him in his place! He CAN be quite nice but I know how protective you are. Don't worry, you will always get seeds...  

Your baby sounds TERRIFIC!  

Love (I know hugs are out & Pidgey wouldn't begin to try!)
Shi


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## TerriB

Pidgey, you sure have some amazing birds there! Congratulations to both you and Pierpont!!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Pidgey, 

Yes, good to hear that Pierpoint is doing well and is trying her utmost to sneak some past you, LOL  

Sometime in the future, and if you have time, I'd like to see some new and current pictures of your loft, setup and as many of your individual birds as you can take pictues of

If you do this though, start a new thread so that the post doesn't get lost in the shuffle of some of these VERY long threads of yours


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## Pidgey

Tall order, Brad. And time definitely IS the issue. I think I've got a six-year backlog with Lin for stuff to do.

The other issue would be cleaning and we're both that way. If we woke up to the sound of fire trucks outside and our house burning down, Lin wouldn't let me let them in until we'd done at least an hour's cleaning, straightening up and fluffing the pillows (no unscheduled visitors, period).

Pidgey

P.S. Lichita is the one with the VERY long threads.


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## Whitefeather

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> *Hi Pidgey*,
> 
> *Sometime in the future, and if you have time, I'd like to see some new and current pictures of your loft, setup and as many of your individual birds as you can take pictues of*





Pidgey said:


> *Tall order, Brad. And time definitely IS the issue. I think I've got a six-year backlog with Lin for stuff to do.
> *.
> 
> Pidgey


Perhaps maybe just one or two pictures when you go out to the loft to feed, clean, etc.?  
That way you wouldn't be making a special trip or interrupt your 'honey do' list.  

Cindy


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## AZfiddler_1996

Pidgey said:


> Tall order, Brad. And time definitely IS the issue. I think I've got a six-year backlog with Lin for stuff to do.
> 
> The other issue would be cleaning and we're both that way. If we woke up to the sound of fire trucks outside and our house burning down, Lin wouldn't let me let them in until we'd done at least an hour's cleaning, straightening up and fluffing the pillows (no unscheduled visitors, period).
> 
> Pidgey
> 
> *P.S. Lichita is the one with the VERY long threads**.*


 hey! I'm eeknowcent.


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## Pidgey

For those of you who remember Pierpont, a small story from last night: I usually put a little feed in her and her hubby's nest box. Well, last night they were out in the common area while I was putting the stuff in (they're virtually always in their nest box when I do that). So... Pierpont must have been watching because she came from behind and not-so-gracefully landed on the top of my head, skied down my forehead and with a flurry of feathers in my face, jumped down in front of me to her nest box...

...grunting vehemently all the while as only she can.

I swear, you'd think she could show SOME gratitude afterall, instead of treating me like the lowest class of hired help.

Pidgey the Porter


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## mr squeaks

ROFL!!

Now Pierpont is what I call a PIJ AFTER MY OWN HEART!!

She always has been feisty! Keep up the good work, Pierpont!!

Uh, Pidgey, I hate to break the news to you...but, you ARE the porter!!

Still ROFL

Scritches to Pierpont!

Shi
& Squeaks, who heartily approves this message!!


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## TerriB

Pidgey said:


> ... treating me like the lowest class of hired help.
> Pidgey the Porter


You absolutely pegged their attitude!  It's really amazing how Pierpoint recovered from such an extensive injury!


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## Pidgey

TerriB said:


> It's really amazing how Pierpoint recovered from such an extensive injury!


Oh, I don't know... as tough as that bird is, if she'd had opposable thumbs, she'd a'sewed herself up... 

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Pidgey,

I'm SO glad to hear Pierpont is feeling so well. They do take us for granted and beat us up as we care for them. Just remember, she considers you an equal, and that is a compliment. Maybe a bit less then an equal...at times, but you got to love them.


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## Pidgey

Trees Gray said:


> Pidgey,
> 
> I'm SO glad to hear Pierpont is feeling so well. They do take us for granted and beat us up as we care for them. Just remember, she considers you an equal, and that is a compliment. Maybe a bit less then an equal...at times, but you got to love them.


Oh, yeah, she feels well alright and never better than when she's abusing the rest of us that she KNOWS aren't equal to her!

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, it is nice to get an update on Pierpont and know she is doing so well. I remember her well and how very sick she was when you got her.

You would think the little devils would show more gratitude towards us, but no, they gotta let you know who is the real boss. Course, I kinda like a feisty pigeon.


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## Pidgey

Hey, Maggers... didja' notice what MIZZZ Sqvawks said:



mr squeaks said:


> Now Pierpont is what I call a PIJ AFTER MY OWN HEART!!


Ya' see--she admires and applauds women who walk all over men!

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

*Ya' see--she admires and applauds women who walk all over men!

Pidgey*


Only those WHO deserve to be walked all over! Sure looks like Pierpont has your number.  PIGEONS ARE SMART BIRDS; Pierpont is Mensa material!  

Oh, one other thing: there is walking and there is - ah - "walking." 

Love and Hugs
Shi 
(who likes men...they are my favorite opposite sex!)


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