# Found a young bird, need help



## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi everyone,

We found another sickly pigeon (we last took care of Petra, which ended very sadly.) I was walking home from work and saw a scruffy pigeon walking around kind of meekly, not moving out of the way when people came close by, and then walking in the middle of the street. He was pretty easy to catch, though there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with his feet or wings (nothing obvious anyway). He seems young--we heard 1 little chirp, and his feet still have a gray-ish tint (though mostly reddish). His feathers are dark grey. His eyes seem kind of grey-green. We're guessing older teenager? What age does that equal?

So anyway, we put him on a heated-up rice sock for 20 minutes, then I started giving him rehydration solution (warm water with pinch of salt and sugar) with a syringe. I did that periodically for the last 2 hours, and he drinks the drops off his beak, but doesn't seem to be drinking on his own. And I don't think he's touched the pigeon feed (seeds) that we put in the aquarium for him. He's able to balance on the edge of his water dish, so he's not in that bad of shape I don't think. And he did become more alert after drinking some water, more curious, looking around. But we're wondering what to do about feeding him. We have the seeds (Aias goes to the park to feed the pigeons regularly, so we're well-stocked with that). No puppy chow. We have dry cat food. What should we do?

His first poops seemed pretty well-formed, 1 was tan and 1 was white with green. And just now there was a really watery green one. Really just water/clear green slime. He's in a puffed-out sleeping position now (head tucked), but he's awake (it's after 10pm, I found him at 7pm). Next step?? Aias thinks since it's nighttime, he doesn't really need to eat right now. But I'm worried about letting him go till morning.

We're still thinking of a name. 

Hope someone can get back to us quickly! Thanks so much,
Sabina 

P.S. Aias is holding him in his lap now with the seed bowl, and just got him to take a couple seeds.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi sabina,

Thank you for helping this bird.

Have you looked down the throat to see if you can see any kind of cheezy yellow stuff, or small white spots, or anything blocking passage way?

Is the breast bone sharp to the touch?

He may be young and just lacking enough food, but I would definitely get an expert rehabber or avian vet to see the bird, as it is posssibly much more then just hunger. A good diagnosis and treatment will definitely increase the chances of survival. You can worry about names later.

Have you tried to see if he will drink out of a bowl by himself?

Also, you can soak small seeds (for 10 minutes) and drain them and put them on the back of the tongue. Make sure to soak and drain only one feeding at a time.
It is a bit messy at first, but best food for older youngsters, and gets easier to do.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

His breastbone does feel sharp. We don't see anything cheesy or anything blocking his throat, but maybe a few white spots further down the throat? Not sure. We can definitely take him to the vet tomorrow. Should we let him go to sleep now, or try to feed some soaked seeds first? He does have a water bowl, but I haven't seen him come close to drinking from it on his own. (I did give a lot of drops earlier.)


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh 1 other thing. Aias thinks he's missing feathers around his beak, given his beak looks very long. There are no feathers around the ceres (??I think I'm saying it right). Does that mean anything?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina,


If you like, I can send you some info about how I feed them, and also for working out with them so they are actively interested in you feeding them...

Just e-mail me off forum and I will send in regular e-mail...


Sounds like a Juvenile who has not yet eaten on his own, and is used to his parents feeding him...

If he is thin and 'light' you may do well to find some way to keep him 'warm' and out of any drafts...

Best if in a box on it's side with a next-cloth rumpled in it and a cloth draped over the front...with a electric Heating Pad inside under the rumpled cloth...

He may be ill, also, so if you have any recourse to an Avian Vet, consider to get a poop-analysis done a.s.a.p.

If you follow the info I can send you, you should have no troubles having him let you feed him, then also for him to eat and drink actively on his own, in no time...

But I am concerned also he may have Coccidiosis, for which a fecal exam/analysis would be valuable to determine, so he can be treated and start getting better so he is even more interested in eating and does not loose his appetite...so...


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Phil, 
I emailed you as well but just wanted to post back...he is thin and light, but the apt is over 75 degrees (no air conditioning!) and we don't have any heating pads, so I'm hoping he's warm enough in the glass aquarium which we placed high on top of a bureau (away from cats), which is even warmer since it's higher up. 
We will definitely take him to the vet tomorrow.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina, 


Well, "75" F is mabye not near Warm enough for one who may be ill or who has suffered privations...so...stop at a Drug Store ( or Thrift Store) tomorrow, and get an Electric Heating Pad...

Too, see if you can elect a room where no Cats may go...and have him 'there', on a Dresser top or Table top...

Arrange the Heating Pad with a light color or white Towell on it. Trying the medium setting, adding another layer of Towll if need be, so that if you press the underside of your wrist into if from where the Bird will be, it "just" feels 'warm'...a little warmer than your Wrist...

Too, just for good measure, get some 'Raw' Apple Cider Vinegar ( any Health Food store) and mix Two or Three Tablespoons of it to a Gallon of Water, and use 'this' for his Drinking water AND for his formula mixing Water...use it for the next ten days or so...

Let us know how the feed and the rest of it is going?


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

From your description of the beak it sounds like a juvenile. If the cere, the fleshy area over the beak is dark and not powdery white this is most likely a baby that hasn't learned to eat on its own yet. But a vet check is definitely in order, as youngsters are most vulnerable to disease. I'm glad you have a vet to take him to. Let us know how it goes.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*update*

Simao, our pigeon youngster, seems to be doing well. 

We tried to follow some of your advice Phil (thanks for the emails, truly appreciated!). We bought a heating pad and put it in his aquarium, which is turned on its side on top of the bureau with a towel as a curtain over it. I blended some seeds and soaked them to make a formula, we tried the sounds and stroking his beak. 

But in the end, what worked best was feeding him regular seeds next to the adult pigeons who Aias feeds on the window ledge (with a screen separating them). He finally started eating and drinking on his own! Though he makes a big mess doing it! Seeds flying everywhere. But I did see him swallowing plenty this morning before I left for work. And he's drinking his water, to which we add a few squirts of Nutrimin.

Aias (used to be my boyfriend, now my husband) reports that Simao is very active walking around the apt during the day (I'm at work during all his waking hours). He has an appt with the vet tomorrow. His poops are plentiful and pretty well-formed, khaki/greenish-brown. But judging by past posts, it seems certain he has some parasites--will give the update after the vet visit tomorrow.

I'm wondering though...how did this youngster get separated from his parents? Did I do the right thing bringing him home? He's seems like a relatively healthy bird. Though then again, he was very scruffy-looking when I first saw him. And he seemed so forlorn, wandering in the street. But what happens next? Will he learn to fly on his own?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina,


It sounds as if he was certainly in a compromised and vulnerable situation when you found him, and I am confident you saved his Life by your intervention and care. He might not have lasted the rest of the day, or much past that if some Car or Cat or Dog were to have got him...let alone, that he was likely starving.

So yes, you did the right thing there...definitely.


They do get seperated from their Parents sometimes for who knows why...and if they are weak neophyte fliers, unable to locate food to forrage, or to follow other Pigeons to be shown where food sources are, they soon can become weaker and seriously famished, starving to death even, dehydrated, and possibly becomeing ill from a diminushed immune system and general starvation and dehydration...

Some of them in these situations have never before ate or drank on their own, and some were just starting to do so but may forget from stress that they were starting to do so.

Letting them see and be near older Birds, letting them see the older Birds peck and drink, is always a good thing, and in your's case, seems to have inspired him to realize he could emulate their actions.


Getting a fecal exam to check for evidense of Worms or Coccidiosis or as may be, would be a nice gesture to make for his well being...

Glad to hear all is looking so good!

He will need some weeks or a month maybe, before he should be released.


If you can cultivate the acquaintance of some feral flock, and start feeding them often, and bringing yours, in a cage if need be, so yours can peck and eat in his cage, as the others do likewise on the ground...for him to 'be' with them often, this will be a good thing for him for when you let him go to join them...one way or another...so he is used to them and can absorb in advance, their modes of experience and communication and belonging...


Good going..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, sounds like you and Aias are doing everything right for this little fellow. And as Phil said, you were absolutely right in scooping him up. Sometimes they just tumble out of the nest and wander around, not knowing how to fly or feed themselves and needed a caring person like yourself to pick him up.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*news from vet*

Thanks to all for your encouragement and support!! It made me feel a lot better. 

Today, the vet visit provided more confirmation that we did the right thing. Per Aias, the vet said the pidgie was starving. He weighs only 1.3 lbs! (That sounds very little, though I have no idea how much a pigeon usually weighs.) She also said he would've died that day if we hadn't brought him home. And he has coccidiosis. So he's now taking Clavamox and Albon twice a day, plus 1-2ml of yoghurt a day. The vet says he has a small chance of making it. 

We were a bit shocked by the gloomy prognosis, since he's a very alert, perky, active little bird, who runs around the apt pecking at things. What can we do to increase his chances, I wonder? Try to feed him around the clock? The pigeons in the neighborhood will be very well-fed, since we have to feed them on the ledge to get Simao excited about eating! In any case, we'll do our very best to give him the best chance possible.

Aias will upload the pictures he's taken so far later tonight. He also took a couple of little movies after he gave Simao a bath yesterday--he'll put those up when he has more time. 

We're lucky Aias works at home, so has plenty of time to look after him. Tomorrow, we have to leave the house for about 8-9 hours (we were supposed to leave tonight but we cut the trip short because of the pidgie), but at least he started his medicines and can eat on his own. We just have to make sure he's well-protected from the cats (our apt is essentially 1 room).

Thanks again for everything. We'll keep updating.
Sabina


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Are you sure it was 1.3 _pounds_? That would be the size of a large homer. Vets usually weigh them in grams. Well anyway, I wouldn't necessarily believe the vet's gloomy diagnosis. Vets, even avian specialists, frequently have limited experience with pigeons and pigeons are much tougher than other birds. Just keep taking care of the little guy. If he's alert and eating on his own I'm willing to bet he'll make it. If you can, get a good quality pigeon mix for him. Safflower seed is a favorite of pigeons and helps put on weight. Small, raw peanuts are good treats, too.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Coccidiosis is actually pretty common. It is a protozoal infection that most pigeons are actually infected with. When it turns into a clinical disease, it can easily be controlled with quite a few different medications but you can never actually completely rid them of it. They can go their entire lives without ever even getting the disease form again. Sometimes, they get over the worst of it all on their own. With the behavior that you described, I wouldn't even be worried, actually.

1.3 pounds doesn't sound right--that's actually a pretty heavy pigeon at 590 grams, which is almost as big as my biggest, fattest homer (he's a rescue that broke a wing and now has an eating disorder--every piece of food he sees goes down his gullet).

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hmm. I wasn't at the vet, so I don't know what she said exactly. Aias swears she said 1.3 something (and that 1.2 was considered starvation). What could that be?

I've tried looking online for sites on pigeon growth and development (so I could get a sense of weights and what pigeons look like at different ages), but I haven't found anything helpful, and instead have come across awful sites about squab farms/breeding pigeons for food and some bizarre experiment about food deprivation and weight loss in pigeons. !! Anyone know of any helpful links?

Anyway, will post a link to pictures soon and that should help to solve these mysteries...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know unless it was "130 grams". You don't have a kitchen scale for weighing spices and other ingredients do you? Otherwise, you can try comparing the bird to the weight of water in a styrofoam or paper cup. You just keep adjusting the amount of water until you think you've got a match and then you measure how much water it is.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Ok have found some links in the Resources page. Seems like around 24 days old to me. Weight-wise, we'll have to try that water trick.

I'm glad to hear alternative views on the prognosis, it's definitely reassuring. Should we be giving formula along with the seeds to try to make him gain weight more quickly? We're giving Hagen's Pigeon and Dove seeds, original blend (ingredients read: white millet, red milo, red millet, whole wheat, canary grass seed, feed oats, cracked corn, oat groats, green split peas, safflower seeds plus some vit/minerals). 

Another question--given he's so young, should we try to limit our petting and preening? Aias loves to hold him and pet him--will his being used to people in that way be a problem in getting him to adapt to a feral flock later?

Sabina

p.s. a link to pictures!! the swaddling pictures are after his bath. a few pics show him eating next to the grown-ups. 

http://designsubversive.net/simao/

to navigate thru the pics, you have to use the arrow keys on your computer (up, down, etc)--i got stuck after looking at the first row, and aias had to show me to use the down arrow to get to the second row, but perhaps you all are more computer savvy than me and didn't need that explanation!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, if you've got a sick bird with a shaky prognosis, if they like petting and preening then it's better if you give them all of it they want. That feeds the spirit and that is the best medicine, simply put.

As to how that will affect his release, that's not really a problem. The problem is going to be how _you_ will deal with releasing him.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Ok Pidgey I tried your water trick, and I decided he seemed about 5oz which converts to about 140g. So 130g must be right!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then, that is very light and we need to be careful that he doesn't get too much food at a time. He's about half the size of a healthy pigeon chick of that age.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*weight*

Well we at least solved the mystery. Apparently the vet said 132. Which Aias interpreted as 1.32lbs, when it was really 132 grams. Has anyone looked at the pictures? And maybe then could give a better estimate of Simao's age?

In terms of making sure he doesn't get too much food at one time--he eats on his own. He has seeds in his aquarium, which we move to the window ledge when the outside pigeons come to eat. But he does also eat on his own in the aquarium. I can't imagine that he's overeating though.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It could help him to get some formula if you're amenable to that idea. That's a bit of a mess until you get it figured out but it's one way to help him catch up. That's something like Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula but there are other versions made by other makers including the company that makes the mix that you're using, I think.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I did look at the pictures and he does look a bit on the rough side--certainly not well. It is going to be a close call but the next four days are probably going to tell the tale, one way or the other. If he starts picking up and getting better, it should be real obvious because he'll probably pick up speed doing it. Slowly at first and then faster all the time. Just keep in mind what I said about the petting and love--the medicines are great and will take care of a lot, but love and attention right now will give him a reason to live and that's what he needs most.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks Pidgey. Aias does give him a lot of love, and we're glad to hear that's a good thing. We'll do our best for him--all suggestions for how to help him along are welcome.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina,

If you did wish to consider the care and feeding info I sent you, it would likely be a nice additional moralle booster for him, as well as getting him much better nutrition than plains Seeds will at this point, and is completely compatible with his pecking and self feeding on Seeds anyway.

I do not have time at this moment to go through the thread
s past entrees, but can you remind where things are at in terms of him possibly being ill?

Has he been examined by any practiced hand? Had a fecal analysis done?

Is he getting ACV-Water for his drinking Water?

How are the poops looking as for color and shape and soon?


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, Phil, the vet diagnosed coccidiosis. Oddly enough, though, the bird is on Albon AND Clavamox (Amoxicillin + Clavulanic Acid) so you might suspect that the vet suspected a bacterial infection as well or perhaps just wanted an insurance policy.

She didn't mention ACV in the water at this point. You can scroll up on this page and see a picture but if you're running dialup, it's going to take awhile to load.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey...

I would think the ACV-Water would be especially good to do then...good no matter, but especially good in this case...

If their poops are happenning to match their food intake, and in a timely way...there should be no problem with making sure they are eating enough to make 30 - 35 poops in 24 hrs...even if they are a little light, in which case the poops would tend to be smaller anyway...and or, what I mean is, to feel free to see to it they are getting as much chow as they can handle anyway.

Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

We'll look for the Kaytee formula and start adding the ACV to his water tomorrow. Phil, we have incorporated some of your suggestions, and they've been very helpful!

Here is a link to pics which is quicker if you have a dial-up connection:
http://designsubversive.net/simao_bourgeois/


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, because of his weight and overall condition, I would definitely recommend feeding him Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula. When we get one in that small we start out with about 10 cc formula with Benebac mixed in (that is a type of probiotic) about every 2-3 hours. We mix it thinner than they recommend - probably the consistency of pancake mix. You can also mix in about 1/2 tsp plain yogurt. Right now, I wouldn't even be concerned whether he eats seed or not but always have them available. As his condition improves you will be able to increase the volume of Exact with each feeding but for the next few days I would go with at least 10 - 15 cc each feeding.

Love on him all you want to. Like Pidgey said, right now you want to get him well and worry about the bonding part later.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Sabina,

I love the pictures - he is cute baby and going to one of those really dark grey pigeons isn't he?

I love the way the pigeons outside on your window ledge are looking in lovingly at the seed that the baby has.....

Tania x


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Simao flew! He tried to fly from Aias' hand back up to his aquarium and he made it about half-way up then fluttered down and landed on the couch. We were very impressed. He is flapping a lot more too. So that seems like a good sign. Aias also thinks his feathers are looking a lot better, cleaner and softer. 

We didn't get a chance to get the Kaytee today, but Aias is going to go for supplies tomorrow--Kaytee, safflower seeds, nipple...I think that's all. Oh one question--what's the most he can get at a time? ie the vet recommended 1-2ml of yoghurt once or twice a day. If we give it with the syringe the way we give the medicine, how much can we give at one time?

Another question--how long does it take for a pigeon to become fully-grown?

Thanks for all the info 
Sabina


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

We didn't get a chance to get the Kaytee today, but Aias is going to go for supplies tomorrow--Kaytee, safflower seeds, nipple...I think that's all. Oh one question--what's the most he can get at a time? ie the vet recommended 1-2ml of yoghurt once or twice a day. If we give it with the syringe the way we give the medicine, how much can we give at one time?

* 1/4 of a teaspoon of good quality plain yogurt or kefir sould do it, or you can add some probiotic powder to the formula-from the health food store-refrigerator section.*

Another question--how long does it take for a pigeon to become fully-grown?

*A healthy youngster is almost full grown at 6 weeks of age, but they actually don't mature until they are six months old. *


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The normal timeline can get a little off when you've got a deal like this to contend with. I'd throw the calendar out and just take it day by day.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, you can mix the yogurt in with the Kaytee formula or even give it straight but it may be a little thick in a syringe just by itself.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Sabina,

I just want to add that I have tried the kefir in the syringe, and yep it got stuck, it is just as Maggie says. It will mix easier with formula, as I have whipped it up with a protein drink and it mixes just fine.

Also, you can actually use a baby spoon and spoon it to the back of the throat, it is messy at first but it works as an alternative.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*feeding*

I'm at work, and haven't spoken to Aias today but...

We were planning to try to feed the formula with probiotics and yoghurt through Phil's suggested nipple method. Will let you know how that works.

We've been giving water with ACV and Nutrimin: 1-2oz water with few drops of ACV and couple squirts of Nutrimin--does that sound ok?

Simao's stools were watery yesterday, I figured maybe a side effect of antibiotics (i know the people version of Clavanox causes diarrhea). But then his poops last night were well-formed, tan-green.

Regarding age/growth/development, I was just curious. Esp since this is only the second bird we've taken care of, and the first juvenile...But we're just taking it day by day.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*Feeding problems*

Ok this feeding thing is a little rough. I mixed the formula with water and yoghurt, warmed it a little bit, put the formula into the nipple the way Phil recommended and...Aias, the sofa, and I are wearing it now. The pidgie doesn't seem to recognize it as food at all, struggles to get his beak out of the nipple and then flings it everywhere. I read thru a couple pages on hand feeding (the bag, the syringe, the nipple) but I don't see how those will be any better/different. And I'm afraid of the spooning method, I don't want to cause aspiration pneumonia.

Aias is convinced that since he's eating seeds on his own, that's sufficient, and that he'll be resistant to being fed no matter what. Ie if we want to give him formula, we'd have to give it like medicine, in the syringe.

What to do?? I don't want to force feed him, that seems wrong/unnecessary. But I do want to make sure he gets the nutrients/calories he needs. Aias plans to buy a scale tomorrow so we can monitor his weight and get some objective basis to judge his intake. It's hard to figure out how much of the seeds he's eating since he makes such a mess doing it. 

Thoughts? Ideas? Help!

Oh by the way Aias couldn't find Kaytee so he bought Zupreem's Baby Bird Hand Feeding Formula. And so far, Simao's not taking to the safflower seeds, but maybe he'll get more used to them soon


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina,


Uhhhhhhhh...I dunno...

Lol...

There are a lot of factors so far as co-operating with a youngster Pigeon, for them to eat or be fed from the Nipple...

It is of course a matter of communication, in effect, and of doing something with them, which is in their terms, their modes of feeling and sensaation, their being the active agent, which is different than doing something to them.


There is an age at which they become less likely to be interested to eat this way too of course, or an age at which they simply have no interest to do so.

If the young Pigeon is NOT 'Nuzzleing', and will not be inspired to Nuzzle with one's various gestures to invite them to...then, it is highly unlikely they will be interested to eat from the Nipple.

If the Pigeon is Nuzzleing, if they respond to the invitations to be fed, then they will eat from the Nipple, or at least I never had one who would not do so.


I have had full, large, heavy adults with 'white' Wattles, who even did so for a few days, till they were feeling better and remembered they were 'adults'!...Lol...

These being 'Car wacked' ones, which can cause them to revert sometimes to earlier modes of being.


I have had some sub-adults who looked like Adults but for their wattles being not quite 'there', who decided they would be happy to eat from the Nipple, and believe me, these guys can PUSH too once they get into it...! These being wild/feral Pigeons who were hurt or ill and not eating on their own for whatever reason and so I tried this with them and they responded well. Most of that age would not respond with interest or follow through, but some will.


Now, with yours, did you do the warm-moist-finger-tip-Beak-massage, slowly, gently, from the front, ( while saying "ooooOOOOOoo! - ooooOOOoooo!' in a lowish, slowish back of the throat kind of voice? ) and did your Bird respond with any tentative Nuzzleings, Peepings, Squeakings, shoulder-Pumpings?

In other words, does your Bird ask you TO feed him, in his terms of asking?


If he does, likely some review of details will allow you two to get this worked out just fine...for him to chow-down in the Nipple...

If not, then I recon the Nipple is a no-go for this situation...!


Lemme know?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, any change you make takes awhile to get right. When I've got one to syringe feed, I stick on a tube made from electrical heat shrink tubing as shown here:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/548021569/2230231940073664377yNkprq

And use a method as shown here:

http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL

The technique that I use for force-feeding is to use the back of my left hand to hold them down in their nest (you can also wrap them in a towel if need be) while cradling their head between the middle and ring fingers. You need to extend the neck and head from the body (straighten it up) if you're going to tube feed all the way to the crop. You take the fingernails of the right hand and pry the beak open and then use the unused fingers (index and thumb) of the left hand (that's still upside down holding the bird's body down while cradling the head at extention) to hold the beak open while you either roll seeds down or insert the syringe.

If you pick a line of insertion that points the tip slightly towards the back of the throat as it's going past the opening to the trachea (airway), you won't have a problem with that. It's also a little better to insert the tube on the left side of the beak (the bird's left) and cross it a bit to the right side (the bird's right) as the esophagus goes down the right side of the bird's neck (the bird's right).

Most bird's will struggle, some ferociously. The authority with which you hold the bird is very important. If you let them struggle too much, you'll either chicken out and the bird won't get fed; it'll be a real sloppy job with food all through the mouth, crop and esophagus possibly resulting in the bird breathing in some food (aspiration) and getting very sick or dying (sometimes immediately); or you can hurt the bird's esophagus to the point of rupture in the extreme. You just don't let the bird struggle. If they're going to play rough, then you wrap 'em in a towel for restraint.

If you're in doubt as to getting it down the airway then first open the beak real wide so that you can see where the airway is and how it's situated. It's a longwise oval slit just behind the base of the tongue and the entry for it is actually perpendicular to the throat. That is, it opens in the bottom side of the throat and as long as you've got the tube pointed straight back in line with the bottom beak, it will skip over it without ever having touched it. If you're desperately afraid you're going to go into it, then make sure the tube is clean before you go in, insert it some ways and then hold the bird's beak open enough to look in and make sure you've got it going the right way before you start pumping stuff in. After you get used to the technique, it's pretty quick and easy.

Pidgey


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hello--
I really appreciate your responses Phil and Pidgey. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to try to implement anything. Mon-Thurs, I worked 12 hr days (added to long commute), so just helped give the pidgie medicine before I left and when I got back. Aias has been working out of the house as well, so he just feeds Simao with the other pigeons on the ledge a couple times a day. 

But Simao seems to be doing well. He's not at all ruffled or puffy looking anymore, he's sprouting all kinds of new feathers all over the place (a little feather goatee under his beak, funny feather pants on his legs, etc). He seems a lot heavier. He has a follow-up vet appointment tomorrow, which I'm actually going to be able to go to this time. So I'll give another update after that.

Maybe once we get feedback from the vet how he's doing, we'll decide if we should try the formula again or not.

Sabina

P.S. If anyone was wondering where the pidgie's name came from, he's named after the Portugese soccer player we THOUGHT was going to score for Portugal when they played France in the World Cup. Simao Sabrosa did not do any such thing, but we decided we still liked the name anyway!


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*back from the vet*

We went to the vet today. Simao weighs 140 g so not much of a weight gain. But she said teenager pigeons tend to hang out at about the same weight until they start flying, at which point they gain muscle mass. He doesn't have coccidiosis anymore (so no more Clavanox/Albon) but does have yeast, so he's starting Nystatin (and continuing the yoghurt). The vet also said there was a white spot in his mouth, mild canker/trichomoniasis, so gave him Spartrix 1/2 tab daily for 3-5 days. 

She wants us to feed him puppy chow which she showed us how to do. He took to it pretty well, so that's what we'll do. She said she doesn't recommend tube feeding, said she'd seen birds who were unable to swallow after having been tube-fed only. Since Simao knows how to eat on his own, I don't think that would have been an issue. But since the puppy chow is easier, I didn't argue! And then he has another follow-up visit in a week. 

That is the update! All seems relatively well 

Sabina


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That all sounds good, Sabina. Bless you for taking such good care of him.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*latest update*

Well we took Simao to the vet again today. He weighs 160g, so still very light. She said his good bacteria isn't totally replenished so she gave us Benebac. The yeast is almost all gone so we'll give a day or so more of Nystatin.

Feeding-wise, we didn't do as planned at all, I'm a little embarrassed to say. We've just been giving seeds, feeding him at the window ledge with the other street pigeons (separated by a screen). (Plus Nutrimin water and yoghurt.)

But today we're starting the puppy chow. We gave about 15 pieces now. How many pieces how many times a day?

We felt more inspired to finally start the puppy chow cause he's looking a little ruffled/puffed up today. Maybe it was the trauma of the long subway trip back and forth, the hour or so at the very air-conditioned vet's. But his poops are also very watery green today. Usually they're more solid green. 

Why are the poops still green if we got rid of the coccidiosis and he doesn't have any parasites? Does he maybe have a virus? Or maybe he's just underfed/undernourished?

Thanks for your help!
Sabina


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Poops aren't an exact science. A bird's poop can range a bit depending on a lot of things that aren't disease-based. A bird can drink too much water for psychological reasons and then start pooping with a lot of water, for instance. As far as green goes, some of that depends on what the bird's primarily eating. I've got a blind bird who prefers peas as a staple and she's always pooped green. I also think that she went a spell drinking more than she should have out of boredom during the day when we were at work and ended up producing more than the average amount of water.

I have another bird that had been terribly hurt in such a way as to form a fistula (a healed open wound on the crop) that leaked most of the water and some of the food that she ate. As a consequence, her body learned how to conserve water to an extraordinary degree and her poops were always desiccated little balls.

That's not saying that you have an unresolved disease process, but I'd be more likely to think that the round of antibiotics had some influence and you need to give the bird some time on the Benebac. At least the weight's coming up and he's headed the right direction. The puppy chow will change things again and you'll just have to wait and see.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabrina,



Yahhhhhh...

The antibiotics, and the elimination of the normal fauna and flora in his Crop and intestines, along with diet, will effect the quality and color of the poops...as will whether or not he is getting Grit, which of course, he should not have been while on the antibiotics...so...

Next time you go to the healthfood store, get some 'Digestive Enzymes' powder or powder in capsules...and...

Get some 'Pro-Biotics' in powder or powder in capsules...

Too, powdered Sea Weed and powdered 'Super Greens' are excellent to add to the 'glistened' Seeds...as is even a little powdered Garlic.

I myself would discontinue the dairy products, as Pigeons do not posess the enzymes necessary to digest it properly, and the Yoghurt's possible utility for containing certain Enzymes or Bacteria, can be satisfied with the non lactose non dairy containing 'powders' mentioned above, and with none of the digestive compromise or diarrhea or gas or other effects.




If you are feeding him small pellets of Dog food or the likes, you can simply moisten them in a little Olive Oil, and then sprinkle a little of these powders on them right before feeding them to him.

Although most dog food 'pellets' and similar is made from heavily processed dead and diseased animals from many sources, or from the diseased tumors and growths from slaughterhouses discards, with some overly processed overly cooked grains added, and Pigeons are Vegan creatures, needing wholesome 'Live' foods, who should not be fed cooked food and certainly not fed cooked dead processed meat products made from dead animals...

So, at the risk of interfereing too much with your accepted advices, I myself would never feed such things to a Pigeon or to any Bird, even if a carnivorous one...even though almost all Vets recommend it, they never seem to have bothered learning what is "in" it...and what it is made from. They are just thinking of cheap logistically 'easy' protean, and for that matter, whole dried Peas and certain dried or semi dried Berrys ( such as Goji Berries, soaked and cut into thirds or so) would be far better to pop in their Beaks.

And if a Pigeon I would simply feed them by hand into their Beak, with either whole Peas, Corn or other larger wholesome Seeds and Berrys, glistened lightly with fresh new Olive Oil, and 'powders' sprinkled on to them, or, if the Bird is eating on their own, I would let them do so with the same treatment for the Seeds.


And let them have some sort of nice Grit now that they are off the antibiotics...


Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

*very sad day*

Simao died last night. I had started to become worried about him yesterday evening, as he was remaining kind of ruffled, and he had those watery green poops, which I read in another thread as happening just before another pigeon died. But what happened? How did this happen? We had him for a little over 2 weeks, he had been getting steadily better. Just a few days ago, he started pecking and wingslapping us when we invaded his turf (his aquarium). And Friday he was hopping around, being curious. Yesterday was the real downhill day. And strangely, he was at the vet's yesterday. She just looked in his mouth to make sure the canker was gone, weighed him and did the fecal analysis. So maybe he had a virus? There were no medication mistakes this time, I'm sure of that. We fed him the medicine properly, into his crop. Could it be not disinfecting his syringes and that sort of thing? (I rinsed them in hot water.) Or maybe he was underfed? Viruses, you figure he'd have to catch from another pigeon, right? Could he have caught something from a pigeon across a wire screen? I don't know, it's very shocking and sad. I don't know what to think.

Sabina


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Sabina, I'm so very sorry you lost him. It really could have been any number of things, including certain viruses that you couldn't have done anything about. You did all you could by getting him vet care. Many people don't even go that far. I really doubt it was anything you did. It could have even been a bad case of internal canker the medication wasn't able to cure--it happens. But I'm so sorry, and I know how much it hurts to lose a little one when you've grown attached and done everything in your power to save it.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Thank you Birdmom, we were feeling like very unfit parents, and you helped us to feel better. I was really doubting our ability to take care of pigeons and thinking next time we should hand them over to a real rehabber, thinking while we really care and try, maybe we just don't know enough. I hope you're right and that it wasn't anything we did. Thank you again.

There's a pigeon that used to come visit Simao, even when there weren't any seeds to eat. He/she is very dark like Simao, and spent a lot of time peering in at Simao. I wondered it it was possibly Simao's parent (we did only find him 2 blocks away). Anyway, it's very sad, the pigeon keeps coming and looking for Simao today. The apt is very lonely without him (even though there are 2 cats and the two of us).

Sabina


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sabina, 


I am so sorry they did not make it.


I think most of the illnesses we see, are occasioned by immune system compromises.

Normally there are many kinds of germs, bacteria, organisms in any Animal, which are in a balance or symbiosis, and somehow these matters are regulated to no troubles ensue.

if the Bird's ( or anyone's) immune system is compromised from something, stress, dietary deficiencies, injury...then possibilities increase for illness which can arise endemically, with no need at all even for the Bird or other animal to have been 'exposed' to anything...

Or if they are exposed to something, their chances of 'getting' that something are greater.

This is my appreciation anyway...

Medicines sometimes interfere with these balances, while addressing some sector of their constituants, so that while the medicine helps one out of wack part of the picture, at the same time some other thing gets going from the imbalances.

So, in it's way, it is all kind of tricky...


Most of us have had ill Birds who we were treating and careing for, who got better and better, then after a couple weeks, nose-dived out of the blue, and die from we know not what.

I hope someday we can learn enough about these situations' potentials, to see it comeing better, or to prevent it entirely, and to have some good ideas on what to do, to make sure these kinds of things do not happen.

Till then, we know sorrow.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Phil, 
Thank you for all your abundant help. 

We took very seriously what you said about the puppy chow (both being vegetarians ourselves), and decided we wouldn't give that again in the future (and that perhaps we should look further into what our cats should be eating). 

I do think he would've had more of a fighting chance if we had fed him more aggressively. The poor thing was still so light when he died. We meant to supplement his feeding but with both being so busy with work (and both needing to be out of the house all day the last week or so, though Aias usually works at home), we didn't do it. I didn't know it had the potential to be so life-and-death, given he was able to eat on his own and seemed to be getting better. It didn't occur to me a new illness could come along. 

In terms of the medicines getting things out of whack, the vet did convey that his flora didn't look good yesterday. While there were no gram negative bacteria (ie coccidiosis), there weren't any (healthy) rods really.

In any case, we'll do our best to learn from any potential mistakes we may have made. 

Thanks again for all your help.
Sabina

P.S. What did you mean (in your previous posting) about grit?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Some kinds of Antibiotics have affinities for available Calcium, and their effectiveness will be diminished if there is available Calcium sources in the patient's diet.

So, Calcium based Grits or Calcium enhanced Grits, should be with-held during Antibiotic regimens, when the Antibiotic is of a kind known to to have a diminshed effectiveness in the presence of dietary Calium sources.

Granite based Grits should be fine anytime, so long as they are the 'plain' kind with no added Calcium...and so long as the Bird's digestive system is working well, and they are used to it as a routine thing to peck at as they like.


Anyway, the food thing is a very important one for us all to remember or be reminded about now and then.

Sick or Injured Birds can take quite a bit of time every day in lots of ways, and we have to remember always to be checking their Crops, and counting those poops...and lineing the Cage Bottom each morning with a fresh cloth so we can count them through-out the day, or do a final count next morning when we put a fresh cloth in for the next round.

Being sick or injured can throw off their appetite, or throw off their pecking ability too.

It is of course somewhat easier on them and us, when they can self feed, either by pecking, or byeating like a 'Baby' as we feed them, verses when we must tube feed them.

Tube feeding really can be quite easy and fast and comfortable for all concerned, once one has a little practice at it, where the time and trouble is no different really, than warming the chow for the 'Nipple' would be, so...

And I think too, for many occasions of convelesence, that tube feeding ( or Nipple Feeding for the young or amenible who will do it, ) is likely a good idea even when we observe them pecking, since we can get much better and broader and easily digested nutrition into them this way, to aid and nourish them in their recovery...

Too, we can always augment their Seeds, 'glisten' their Seeds, with fresh wholesome nutritious Oils ( such as a small, new, little Bottle of Oilve Oil just for 'them') , and with supplimental powders of various kinds that will stick to the Seeds then, for increased/enhanced nutrition, if they are in fact eating enough on their own.



It is easy to be fooled sometimes, unless we DO count the poops each day with a fresh Cage cloth for them to poop on. We can think they are eating enough on their own, only to find out one way or another, that they are not eating enough at all.

I have had some I assumed were eating enough by themselves, they were causually pecking off and on all day, every day. But no poops...and just pecking motions was all, or some very few Seeds getting eaten for all their appearances of otherwise...and when I would check, I'd find their Crop to be empty, so, at that point, it is either Mr. Nipple if they will do it, or Mr. Tube...!

So, checking their Crop, and counting those poops each day, are something we must do to tell if they are eating enough, or to decide if we need to feed them one way or another for a while untill they are eating enough again on their own.


Phil
Las Vegas


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