# S.O.S. - Beak lesions on feral



## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Just caught this one.
Suggestions please.
Let me know if the link doesn't work.[URL="[/URL]

Thanks

Julianne


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Looks like avian pox and perhaps canker too. What does the inside of the lower beak look like? Assuming this is pox, there is no treatment other than good supportive care and topically treating the lesions with a drying agent such as diluted Betadine or tea tree oil. I think I would treat for canker also, just to be sure.

Terry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks for responding so quickly, it's appreciated. I take it I should keep him well away from my other sick/injured pigeons? I'm going to put him in the washroom. 
Sorry for my ignorance here - but it doesn't spread to cats, does it? Just double checking. Not that they'll be near the pigeon. But I'll be up close with all. Thanks.

Inside of the lower beak has lesions. It's pretty swollen in there. He's able to eat "small seeds". I'm pretty amazed considering the state of his mouth.

I have Spartex for canker but don't think I'll be successful in getting a whole pill in him. Will probably have to break it in quarters and administer one quarter at a time.

I have tea tree oil but never had a case like this. How do I treat with it?

Your thoughts on the prognosis?

Thanks,

Julianne


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Not seen one as bad as that. Terry has it figured, as I would always consider canker as well, since it'll strike when the bird is already ill pretty often.

I'd suggest Metronidazole (Flagyl) in liquid form from a vet, after one or two days of Spartrix (can also be given concurrently). Could also be dribbled on any suspected canker lesions, though of course won't affect pox.

Looks like possible permanent beak or jaw damage could be left, unfortunately.

John


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Jules,

It will be fine to give the Spartrix in quarters or halves .. just be sure you get an entire tablet in each day for at least three days.

You just dab the tea tree oil on the pox lesions (bumps) a couple of times per day to help dry them up so they drop off. While this is highly contagious to other birds, you nor your non-feathered pets are at risk. You do want to be very careful with your hygiene to protect your other birds.

Usually it is recommended to dilute the tea tree oil, but this case is so severe that I would use it full strength for at least a few applications.

Good luck with this bird .. this is a very nasty case, but our beloved pigeons are tough and can and do survive avian pox.

As John noted, there may already be some fairly extensive damage to the structure of the beak. Once the lesions and possible canker start clearing up, it will be easier to tell if that's the case or not.

Terry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Terry, regarding the Spartrix dosage, I have Spartrix 10 mg. The dosage says that a single dose is usually sufficient. You are saying because of the severe case that I should extend the treatment for a minimum of three days?

Just checking. Thank you, I so appreciate your assistance.

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Julianne,
I give the Spartrix three days or even more when I have a bad case like canker. If it is the only treatment I give I extend it to seven days.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I always go three days with Spartrix and often will give Spartrix and Metronidazole together for three days and then continue the Metronidazole for an additional seven to ten days.

Terry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Update: Even with the Spartrix quartered, so far he's unable to swallow it. I can actually see the pill part way down his throat. 
He keeps picking up corn; unable to swallow that as well. The inside of his mouth is pretty swollen. I am keeping my fingers crossed that he'll get it down.

Although my Vet is for cats, I do have a "running file" and have been able to order non-cat medications in the past. I'm going to see if I can pickup the Metronidazole (Flagyl - liquid form). Would need help from you guys in dosage/directions.

I also read that Thuja occidentalis helps. I going to call my homeopathic store and see if I can pick some up (wanted to get the liquid form if available), but unsure of how to use for this guy.

Suggestions on that or any other recommendations are greatly appreciated.

I'm digging up another heating pad (three I have are in use) for him... I presume the heat will help him??

Julianne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You're not going to want to hear this, but if the bird can't eat and can't even get a pill down, you might want to consider punching a hole in the crop and tube-feeding and medicating him through there. As bad as that sounds (the psychological barriers for this are huge which is as it should be except as a last resort), it's a lot easier than you might imagine. In this bird's case, it would be best if the hole actually sealed into a fistula so that you can feed and water him until such time as the lesions in the mouth and throat go down.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

You are so right Pidgey, I do not want to hear that.

Even if I was confident with pigeons' physical structure, the psychological barriers would prevail.

I know we do things and attempt new proceedures to try and make the pigeon better. Sometimes we're successful and sometimes we're not. The last time I attempted something I had never done before the pigeon died. A direct result of what I did. That is something that haunts me.

So... having babbled on... what you suggested... that is WAY WAY out of my league! I am just too much of a WUSS.

Too bad we didn't have live cams to help in these "learning situations".

Julianne


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Julianne,
On the occasions that I have had a pigeon who was unable to get even a small piece of Spartrix down, I would dissolve a tablet using an eyedropper full of rehydrating solution (to a cup of water add a pinch each of sugar & salt).
Once the tablet was dissolved I would refill the eyedropper & *slowly* (a couple drops at a time) disperse the medicated solution along side the beak.

It's possible there's enough of an opening that the liquid can get through where a piece of the tablet can't. If so, the little fella is getting *some* medication as well as rehydrating solution. 
They can get along without food for a bit, but must be kept hydrated.

I think the heat is a good idea, at this point. Initially, have the setting on low & placed so your little patient is able to move off of it if he so desires.

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Julianne,

Do you think your little guy could be crop fed/medicated? 

Ron


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I just checked and the pill has disappeared from his throat. I thoroughly checked around the cage & area to be sure that it hadn't dropped out of his mouth. So... I am pleased.
I think that I will disolve the future pills in the rehydrating solution that way I know he is getting the meds and fluids. (Thanks Cindy)

I'm not the best at crop feeding even in the best of times. The mouth is so swollen that I am reluctant to try.

How often should I apply the tea tree oil?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Feeding through incision into crop*

Pidgey,

Just as a theoretical discussion for some possible future occcurence. 

How would you describe to someone how to locate and penetrate the crop? 

I have read, years past, how to do a tracheotomy and intubation on a choking human, recommended to be done only by a qualified medical person. If I came across someone dying, such as from asthma, I might attempt it, as a do-or-die prospect. Make a vertical slit at a particular place in the larynx (I can't describe it properly in precise words just now). Before I read it how to do it, I thought the correct place for the incision would be at any place other than where it turned out it should be. I imagined (in theory) of how I would to do it on myself. 

I did a postmortem dissection on pigeon *Carter* last week in an attempt to find out why he was making unusual (to me) motions with his head and neck, moving his head from right to left, while a small mass or bulge in his crop the size of an olive went from right to left. (Imagine trying to move your Adam's apple/larynx to the side of your neck). At the time I first saw him do it, I felt -- perhaps timidly, or not thoroughly enough -- but detected nothing unusual. His breast/crop area felt firm. He had food, or some obstruction such as hard french fries, volume equivalent to a walnut, in his crop (and proventricula).

I hadn't detected this mass. After removing the skin of his neck, I saw the windpipe/trachea, attached loosely along the vertebral column so that it could shift from one side of the neck to the other, out of the way of anything such as another pigeon's grasping beak, so that it -- I assume -- would not easily be forcefully pinched and crushed between the vertebral column and the grasping jaws or beak. 

The crop resembled a small limp balloon which had shifted to the other side of the vertebral column, almost behind the column. As the pigeon lay on its back, the trachea was a small tube, easy to identify, on the right side of the vertebrae, and the crop was a small sagging thing on the left, and almost disappearing behind the neck vertebral column. Three things: neck vertebral column a half inch in diameter, trachea/windpipe a half centimeter in diameter, both easy to identify and locate, and the saggy, baggy crop, a bit more elusive.

I would have trouble locating the crop unless it were full, or unless I stuck a rubber tube or a theoretical pencil down the throat (which tube supposedly couldn't go down the throat, hence the need for the pending incision) and calculated an incision should be through the skin held pressed against the tube (or "pencil"). 

How would I know that I wasn't bypassing a limp saggy crop, and putting foreign material into the area under the skin but outside the crop? If I were a vet student who had watched and/or performed such a procedure I might have an answer, but I am at a loss right now if I try to imagine such a scenario.

I would find it helpful if such a procedure were described in several repetitious versions so that it were clear to me what to expect. 

Not that I'm asking you to do it (the description). Perhaps you have a reference. If I have to guess, I would say that I feel somewhat sure you would know how to proceed. I would prefer to never be in a situation of being called upon to do such a thing (unless as an assistant to someone more knowledgeable). But if such a situation were to happen, I would like to have had a few weeks before to ponder and reflect on it. I guess I am a slow learner in some things.

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Larry, it's always easy for a hawk to find the crop without even looking. Anyhow, the dimensions depend in part on the actual size of the bird but you'd start from the top of the keel and go up about 3/4" and then to the left about a 1/2". It's best to either wet the feathers there with soapy water till you can see the skin or take some feathers off to bare a patch. You work in that area (or the other side) until you find a spot that doesn't have a visible vein going through it.

In penetrating it, there is some consideration for what's in the crop and what you're intending. If it's a full crop that you're trying to empty, it's pitifully easy to dump it out. If it's an empty crop that you're needing to medicate and feed, then it's a bit more difficult but going straight in beside a pinch of skin pulled outward will usually do just fine.

In this bird's case, you're looking at the possibility of actually feeding it that way for quite awhile owing to the possibility of it being Pox. In such a case, you'd almost rather the hole healed into a fistula (which they will readily do if you manage the healing right) that you could insert a tube into. It'd even be wonderful to have a grommet installed that you could pull the plug on, put in the formula and then re-install the plug rather than leaving a tube in.

Anyhow, the manner of penetration is dependent on the tools at hand. Whether you have an otoscope or just a good magnifier and a flashlight will make a small difference when you're doing it to an empty crop. The fun is actually due to the crop not being completely connected to the skin by way of fascia. Some places are easier and better than others but it's a bit hard to know what you're going to find going in so it's best to go carefully and slowly. It may require a large enough incision on the outside to draw a bit of the crop out and incise it outside the bird. Then, in a case like this, you'd want to sew the edge of the crop incision to the skin all the way around to form the fistula.

Lovebirds had to sew one up a few months back that had gotten hit by a hawk. She actually had her husband turn into a surgeon while she provided moral support from the throes of nausea. The bird did fine, though, and didn't much notice their efforts. I'll link that story here in a minute.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14869

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Response to Pidgey's instructions for crop incision for feeding*

Thanks, Pidgey. Gotta digest that some.

So you're saying it helps to have a hawk as an assistant? Hmmm. 

By the way, I read somewhere that hawks or falcons try to grab the nether end or the tail of the pigeon. 

I supposed the author was talking about a pigeon being pursued on the level, as opposed to a pigeon being hit hard from above by a diving raptor.

After seeing local pigeons take off quickly and noticing that their wings slapped together both above and below their bodies, I supposed that the raptor went for the nether regions because

(1) the raptor would not have his head slapped by the wings, and

(2) the talons penetrating the lower abdominal air sacs of the pigeon would interfere with the ability of the pigeon to breathe.

Any comments, anyone? 

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I don't think you can suppose that a raptor targets its prey quite that specifically--it's just trying to grab the bird, hang on, get the bird to the ground and then work its talons in to puncture enough stuff to render the bird acquiescent to being torn apart and eaten. It's actually the single back talon that they're trying to drive in.

Anyhow, they often end up slashing instead of puncturing by way of a desperately moving bird trying to get away. In such cases, the crop often gets an actual slash. That's probably what happened to Lovebirds' bird and it got away.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

there's no way to tube feed this bird???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Depends on whether Julianna has tube-feeding equipment like you've got now.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

But, I see that earlier in the thread, Jules said that she's not the best at crop feeding and is reluctant to in this case. That's a toughie. She will have to tell us what kind of stuff she's got and whether she's willing to try it.

Pidgey


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

Julianna, do you mind if i ask what happened to the last bird that you feel you directly affected his death?? you dont have to answer if you dont want to...
would you be up to tube feeding??? i just wanted to say, i had a bird a month ago, that ended up dying, but that was my first time on this site, and just a few days ago i caught another one, that NEEDED tube feeding, and if you see my thread you would see how scared i was, terrified actually, i thought i was gonna kill him, really, and that was just yesterday. well, i did it, and after reading about it and watching the video's it helped so much, and you know what, it is pretty easy now, AFTER ONE DAY!!!
can you get the stuff to tube feed??? really, i knew NOTHING of birds until a month ago, and really JUST YESTERDAY learned about tube feeding, we can ALL walk you through it....
it's a lot easier than cutting a hole in his chest, right??? and by NOT doing it he could starve to death....
please think on it and let us know?? we'll tell you what to get and all that, and either me or someone else can call you and walk you through it while you do it???


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

oh, sorry, just saw your reply pidgey///


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

have you done tube feeding Julianna?? is he eating at all??


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## xxmoxiexx (Oct 2, 2006)

ok, i just re-read your thread, sorry jules...
thanks for taking him in, and i shouldnt even be saying anything because i see you've got some other pidgey's there, so you probably know a lot more of whats going on......
keep up the good work....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In a case like that, a bird often can't swallow any food. The worst part is that we don't know if it's a pox lesion or canker or both. If it's a pox lesion, it's not going away quickly--they can take weeks to months. It could be bad to try and force feed the bird consistently for a long period because pox lesions are easy to disturb, especially when they're the "wet" or "diphtheritic" form. I'll go get a link to another thread that you can read about that on and edit it into this particular post.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13812

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> that is WAY WAY out of my league! I am just too much of a WUSS.


I am right there with you, Julianna! I think that members that carry out basic necropsies on dead pigeons would be more confident in carrying out these operations than those of us who don't...or can't. I wish I was more daring but I know my limitations.

Is the tragic case that you are referring to the "salt" one? I found the thread that recommended the use of salt as an emetic and would have asked John to delete it, but it was archived and therefore, I suspect undeletable. 

Cynthia


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Yes Cynthia, that was the one.

I was pleased to see him perky this morning. With his current state I wasn't sure he'd make it through the night.

I bought the liquid Thuja Occidentalis. For Adults (humans) it calls for 10 drops 2-3 times a day. I don't know what dosage to give him... so right now I am giving him 2 drops 3 times a day. If anyone knows the correct dosage, I would appreciate this information. 

At the same time I am treating the outside lesions with the tea tree oil (again - I don't know how often I should be doing this). Also giving him the crushed Spartrix in rehydrating fluid.

Tube feeding this bird is not something I am going to do. That decision is based on the swelling of his mouth and throat. If a kernel of corn is difficult for him to swallow then I'd have to have an extremely narrow tube to comfortably go down his throat. He doesn't need that added stress.


Hawks by the way, attack their prey depending on the type of hawk it is. Sharp shinned, for example usually attack in the air and eat their prey on the ground. Red-tailed usually attack on the ground at eat in trees. Most initial damage from rescued pigeons is the back talon driving into the back of the pigeon. Most hawks kill their prey immediately using the hook at the end of their beak to break the prey's neck. They then "prepare it". They remove all chest feathers and wings before commencing to eat. The prepared prey looks like a turkey breast you would purchase at the meat market; professional, no rips or tears. It's usually the juvenile hawks that will begin eating their prey while it is still alive.

I do wildlife gardening and it attracks a lot of predators. Winter months I have a minimum of five hawks here every day at any time. I've had four different species of hawks with different prey within thirty feet of each other. "That"... I found amazing.

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The Thuja should be the right dose you're giving. I usually give the pills, two-three three times a day.
I am so glad this baby is hanging in there. Have you seen any improvement?

Reti


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*Update*

Update: Positive. He is eating. He is picking up and able to swallow corn and peas. Yes! So I am separating the mixed feed so I can give him what he will eat. He ate sufficiently that I am no longer concerned (at this point) about him getting necessary food.

Update: Not so positive. His breathing was a little laboured. This occured after I administered the crushed Spartrix in the rehydrating fluid. One/two drops at a time through an unused 1 ml insulin syringe (former cat had diabetes). I stopped. It was after all treatment that he ate a full meal.

Update: Suggestions needed, please. The lesions are growing. The one near his eye that was not a concern... has now become a concern. I am not putting the tea tree oil on that one as I feel it is too near the eye. I will try to get photos tonight and post them.

Thank you all for your continued support and assistance, it is truly appreciated.

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

If the lesions continue to grow after the Spartrix, my guess is it is pox, w/ or w/out canker. Pox won't be affected by the meds, so it will continue to grow. But with all the pox babies I had, and I had a lot, even severe cases affecting eyes, beak, nostrils, they all recovered unless they had associated illness to which they succumbed.
Tiny wasn't able to open or close his eyes or beak from the pox, he recovered without any disabilities.
Canker is what concerns me, this will destroy the healthy tissues.

Sounds like your guy is doing ok, especially since he can eat.

Reti


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

The latest upate: He's wrapped in heated towels between my arms as I type this post... and he's sleeping. Apologizing in advance for any typos as it's a tad difficult to type (I don't want to wake him).

The lesions are continuing to grow; on the sides of his beak, his eyes and inside his mouth. Although he was attempting to eat before, it seems he is having more difficulty swallowing them. He still could be... when I'm not right there. 

His breathing seems a little laboured... and his feathers are "puffed out". He also seemed to be shivering a bit. I do have him on a heating pad. The last two nights I slept with him in the washroom (where I keep him). Bundled him in towels and he fell asleep almost immediately. Quite a sight if anyone saw... me lying on this tiny washroom floor cuddling this bundle of towels with the pigeon's head just poking out. I think both of us got a good rest.

I've been soaking dog biscuits and blending them into a very watery solution, adding the crushed Spartrix and one drop at a time, administering through the side of his beak. After these "feedings", I was happy to see that he actually started to groom himself for a bit.

I am worried about how much the lesions will continue to grow in his mouth and throat.

I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to get new photos yet. I will try tomorrow.

Julianne


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Julianne,

Poor little soul sounds like he is having a tough time ( as are you but doing a wonderful job)

Fingers crossed that he pulls through - maybe the medicine needs a little more time to work.

Try and keep positive - hard I know - but if he's a fighter - he may just surprise you. 

Take care

Tania xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

JUlianna, there are liquid products that are available in the UK that are designed to keep pigeons that can't or won't eat alive. One is called Poly Aid and another (for short term use) is called Critical Care Formula. There may similar products in Canada.

Otherwise a bit of honey disssolved in water should help maintain its energy.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Julianne,

A thought that comes to mind is to try some colloidal silver on the lesions, applying with a Q-Tip and soaking them well 3-4 times a day.

I do have some colloidal silver if you need some, I also have an equivalent to the Poly-Aid Cynthia mentions called Thrive http://www.morningbirdproducts.com/product_thrive.html , I would be happy to give you some. Lastly, I have a number of broad spectrum anti-biotics, in case he is getting a secondary bacterial infection.

Good luck with this little guy,

Ron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

"The last two nights I slept with him in the washroom (where I keep him). Bundled him in towels and he fell asleep almost immediately. Quite a sight if anyone saw... me lying on this tiny washroom floor cuddling this bundle of towels with the pigeon's head just poking out. I think both of us got a good rest."



Julianne, I was very touched by your post. I so hope he will get better.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the best ways to monitor them at this point is to track the weight every day with a good scale.

Pidgey


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I've uploaded some photos. There are six pics I took a couple of hours ago. 

[URL="[/URL]

You can see from the shots that his beak is open. He can't close it anymore than it is.
He is eating, I could feel food in his crop. That's a good idea to weigh him Pidgey. I have a pretty good scale and will monitor.

I starting searching for the "Thrive" and a Feed & Pet place in Oakville said they "thought" they had some... but when I arrived, they didn't. I did pick up some "Peak Health Formula" with real egg and Pellet food "Natural Gold" for a healthy immune system.

I am applying Tea tree oil on the external lesions Jazaroo, should I switch to the colloidal silver? I do have some. Can the Thrive be ordered from the URL you gave? I checked out the site... but sorry, I can't remember if you can order direct from there (it's been a long day ).

I was able to better examine the inside of his mouth tonight and all the swelling on the lower beak looks like it's one big canker. I was able to get the full Spartrix pill ( well... two halves) in him tonight. Will continue to be a tad more assertive with him in regards to getting the Spartrix in him.

He is also drinking well on his own. Tonight he was fiesty. Usually I'd pick him up and wrap him in a warm towel and he'd semi nod off as I began "the routine". But not tonight... he was more interested in checking things out. I'm actually pleased that he gave me a tough time. 

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The lesions look so much bigger than in your first pic. It is definately pox and I would use the colloidal silver at this point, you can also give him a drop or two down his throat for a few days. 
It takes weeks for the pox to heal and hopefully this baby will recover nicely.
Treesa recommends also Thuja occidentalis, from the health food store, it shortens the recovery time. I used it a couple of times and it seems to work well.
You're doing a great job.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If this is Pox, I would definitely "run" to your nearest health food store and get the homeopathic remedy, Thuja Occidentalis. This will get rid of any pox internally within a few weeks, and kick the immune system in gear. 

Use 3 small pilutes per dose for a large pigeon, 2 for a small one, twice a day. 

You can use tea tree oil, or Thuja oil, on any topical lesions not near the eyes or beak.


Reti,

what dose did you use when you used it on your Pox babies?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Canker lesions*

Reti,

I see that you are on-line. 

I don't want to interfere with anyone who has had experience with canker or with pox, and maybe I should shut up, but I figure I can present my speculations and others are free to ignore them. 

It looks as though the swelling in and around the beak is getting worse, although I cannot be the final judge on that. 

I copied the photos and blew them up to full-screen. Some of the swelling is translucent. It does not appear to be solid, like cottage cheese. It looks like lymph in the swelling. Could some of the lymph be drained off, with a pin-prick? Then possibly re-sealed or cauterized with a red-hot sewing needle heated in a candle flame? Don't know how a doctor would handle this.

For Jules and others: basically, the lympf is the clear fluid you see in a wound. There are two circulatory systems in the body, the blood circulatory ststem, and the lymph system, which collects dead cells and debris and filters it from the body. 

=================

*From Wikipedia, on lymph:*

The lymphatic system is a complex network of lymphoid organs, lymph nodes, lymph ducts, and lymph vessels that produce and transport lymph fluid from tissues to the circulatory system. The lymphatic system is a major component of the immune system.

The lymphatic system has three interrelated functions: (1) removal of excess fluids from body tissues, (2) absorption of fatty acids and subsequent transport of fat, chyle, to the circulatory system and, (3) production of immune cells (such as lymphocytes, monocytes, and antibody producing cells called plasma cells).

Lymph originates as blood plasma that leaks from the capillaries of the circulatory system, becoming interstitial fluid, and filling the space between individual cells of tissue. Plasma is forced out of the capillaries by oncotic pressure gradients, and as it mixes with the interstitial fluid, the volume of fluid accumulates slowly. Most of the fluid is returned to the capillaries by hydrostatic pressure gradients. The proportion of interstitial fluid that is returned to the circulatory system by osmosis is about 90% of the former plasma, with about 10% accumulating as overfill. The excess interstitial fluid is collected by the lymphatic system by diffusion into lymph capillaries, and is processed by lymph nodes prior to being returned to the circulatory system. Once within the lymphatic system the fluid is called lymph, and has almost the same composition as the original interstitial fluid.

Lymphatic circulation

The lymphatic system acts as a secondary circulatory system, except that it collaborates with white blood cells in lymph nodes to protect the body from being infected by cancer cells, fungi, viruses or bacteria. Unlike the circulatory system, the lymphatic system is not closed and has no central pump; the lymph moves slowly and under low pressure due to peristalsis, the operation of semilunar valves in the lymph veins, and the milking action of skeletal muscles. Like veins, lymph vessels have one-way, semilunar valves and depend mainly on the movement of skeletal muscles to squeeze fluid through them. Rhythmic contraction of the vessel walls may also help draw fluid into the lymphatic capillaries. This fluid is then transported to progressively larger lymphatic vessels culminating in the right lymphatic duct (for lymph from the right upper body) and the thoracic duct (for the rest of the body); these ducts drain into the circulatory system at the right and left subclavian veins.

Lymphoid organs

The thymus, spleen, lymph nodes, peyer's patches, tonsils, vermiform appendix, and red bone marrow are accessory lymphoid tissues that comprise the lymphoid organs. 

et cetera ....
============

When there is a wound or bruise, as in a sprained ankle, the swelling is caused by lymph. Too much swelling can block blood circulation and impede breathing. 

I read of a person who was bit on the leg by a rattlesnake. Leg swelled up tremendously, and the skin was taut. Someone made slits in the skin of the leg, parallel to the length of the leg, to relieve the pressure. The inner meat of the leg bulged out of the slits, resembling sausages that have been heated too quickly and split open. No damage was done by this. Necrosis and gangerene were avoided by this measure. When the swelling went down, the slits later resembled mere fine white scars for a while. 

Also, I have assumed that the pus in boils is sometimes drained off so that the lymph system, with an immune system perhaps already overburdened, does not have to re-absorb and carry off the pus and excrete it in the normal way. 

Could hydrogen peroxide (3% solution) be applied with a Q-Tip or cotton swab tip to some of the more solid stuff? -- (but keeping the hydrogen peroxide well away from the eye, since it is an oxidizing agent, or a "slow fire" of sorts). It would remove and neutralize some of the solid crud.

These are just a few of the ideas that I have had. I have never discussed them with a doctor or qualified medical person, and have no experience in these matters. (I once used hydrogen peroxide to remove a quantity of blood from a carpet in an office where I worked, left there by a burglar who gashed his femoral artery on a broken window and made it to an emergency room after securing his loot safely). 

Thirty or so years ago my little brother Joe once hit his thumb with a hammer, and blood started to pool under the nail. If left alone, it would cause pain from the pressure for a day or so, and in some cases could cause the nail to come loose. He was trusting, and let me try out a technique I had read about (in "Hints from Helouise?). I heated a sewing needle in a candle flame (a half inch of the tip quickly became red-hot), touched it to the middle of the fingernail over the area of pooled blood. The keratin of the fingernail has no nerves. The needle went though the nail in a trice, melting open a small hole. The pressure of the accumulated blood squirted him in the face, and it was over. There was no more pain, the nail apeared normal except for a small dark red spot where the hole had been made, and he exclaimed to the effect of "that was great! Thanks a lot! I have to remember to do this if it happens again in the future!" The shape of the needle tip, a rounded-cone, kept it from going deeper into the hole, and the small mass of the needle tip ensured that it was a small heat sink, that is, the small volume of metal near the tip meant that it could not store a lot of heat, and the stored heat would dissipate rapidly if the needle were not quickly applied to the nail. The red-hot needle tip would stay red-hot or yellow/orange-hot for only a few seconds, and no longer. Thinking of applying a red-hot needle to the tip of the finger, and the possibly ensuing pain, was more a counter-productive work of the imagination than an actual fact. 

*If that swelling blocks off the tracheal opening (the windpipe) at the base of the tongue, that little pigdie will go fast. *

Larry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Julianne,

You can order the Thrive locally through http://www.stuff4birds.com/ . Yes, I would be applying the colloidal silver ASAP, it should help with the Pox and will certainly help treat/prevent a localized bacterial infection.

As for the peroxide that Larry mentions, I once treated a growth/lesion of some sort, four vets could not give me a definitive answer of just what it was (including a biopsy at our teaching university), on one of our Amazons parrot's tongue with a peroxide in glycerine mixture (please use food grade only peroxide for anything even remotely internal, this usually comes at a 35% strength, so you have to be REAL careful with the math/mixing). However, I did mix the volume (strength) down to .3 (about one third of one volume, about ten times less strong than commonly found drug store peroxide, which is usually 3 volume, and not intended for internal use) and it worked. A growth/lesion that was there for over 2 months slowly disappeared.

_An important note about peroxide is that volume does not equal percent. Meaning, that 3 Volume peroxide actually has less than 1% true peroxide added. So that the 35% food grade strength I mentioned above, would be over 115 volume._

Ron


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Cautionary warning about using hydrogn peroxide*

A post-script.

Several times when I have used hydrogen peroxde (available from a pharmacy or drugstore, cheap) it sizzled and spattered, like hot grease in a frying pan. 

Some of the spatters landed on the back of my hand, and on the outer porton of my wrists. The h2o2 left little white spots, demonstrating burns through the skin oils, and I felt a burning sensation. 

It can and will burn (alhough without a visible-to-the-naked-eye flame). 

Since the reaction of the hydrogen peroxide in a strong enough solution is exothermic (gives off heat) and thus causes the violent reaction and spattering, I would be very careful to protect the pigeon's eyes (wrapping them), and/or use a more dlute solution. 

================

*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hydrogen peroxide*



General

Systematic name	Dihydrogen dioxide
Other names	Hydrogen peroxide
hydrogen dioxide
Molecular formula	H2O2
Molar mass	34.0147 g/mol.
Appearance	Very pale blue color; colorless in solution.
CAS number	[7722-84-1] [1]
Properties
Density and phase	1.4 g/cm3, liquid
Solubility in water	Miscible.
Melting point	-11 °C (262.15 K)
Boiling point	150.2 °C (423.35 K)
Acidity (pKa)	11.65
Viscosity	1.245 cP at 20 °C
Structure
Molecular shape ?
Dipole moment	2.26 D
Hazards
MSDS	30% hydrogen peroxide msds
60% hydrogen peroxide msds
Main hazards	Oxidant, corrosive.

Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is a very pale blue liquid which appears clear in a dilute solution, slightly more viscous than water. It has strong oxidizing properties and is therefore a powerful bleaching agent that has found use as a disinfectant, as an oxidizer, and in rocketry (particularly in high concentrations as high-test peroxide (HTP) as a monopropellant), and in bipropellant systems. 

...

Domestic uses

Diluted H2O2 (around 5%) is used to bleach human hair, hence the phrases peroxide blonde and bottle blonde. It can absorb into skin upon contact and create a local skin capillary embolism which appears as a temporary whitening of the skin. It whitens skeletons that are to be put on display. 3% H2O2 is used medically for cleaning wounds, removing dead tissue, or as an oral debriding agent. Most over-the-counter peroxide solutions are not, however, suitable for ingestion.

....

Commercial peroxide, as bought at the drugstore in a 2.5%-3% solution, can be used to remove bloodstains from carpets and clothing. If a few tablespoons of peroxide are poured onto the stain, they will bubble up in the area of the blood. After a few minutes the excess liquid can be wiped up with a cloth or paper towel and the stain will be gone. Care should be taken, however, as hydrogen peroxide will bleach or discolor many fabrics.

....

Storage

Small quantities of many different concentrations and grades can be legally stored and used with few regulations.

Hydrogen peroxide should be stored in a container made from a material that doesn't react with the chemical. Numerous materials and processes are available, and these vary based on the concentration and grade (purity) of the hydrogen peroxide. In general, it is an oxidizer and should be stored away from fuel sources and sources of catalytic contamination. Because oxygen is formed during the natural decomposition of the peroxide, the resulting increase in pressure can cause a glass container to break. Therfore, H2O2 should be stored in vented plastic containers. .... 

------------

Therapeutic use

Hydrogen peroxide has been used as an antiseptic and anti-bacterial agent for many years. While its use has decreased in recent years due to the popularity of better-smelling and more readily-available over the counter products, it is still used by many hospitals, doctors and dentists in sterilising, cleaning and treating everything from floors to Root canal procedures. ....

=========

_*It can quickly damage an eye*._

Larry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*Great information. More questions.*

Good morning. I’m still waking up (late late night with the birdies) and I’m just trying to absorb this information.

Larry; I would love to be able to drain some of the lesions! If I use a needle to drain the translucent ones around his beak, can I just apply a Q-Tip with peroxide on it after draining? I do have Hibitane concentrate (from my Vet).

Reti & Treesa; I’ve been using the Thuja occidentalis (in liquid form) since Nov 7. 
I will switch the external treatment of the lesions from Tea Tree oil to colloidal silver. 
Should I also administer the colloidal silver internally as well as the Thuja occidentalis? If so, what dosage for the colloidal silver?

Should I also start giving him a broad spectrum antibiotic in his drinking water?


The little guy & I both thank you for such outpouring support.

Julianne


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Julianne,

I am going to jump in here. I don't see a problem with giving him .25cc of colloidal silver internally, as well as applying externally. If you do intend to apply peroxide as well I would do so well after, at least 2 hours, applying the colloidal silver as the peroxide is a very strong oxidator and will react with the silver in the colloidal silver suspension, making it much less effective.

Also, since you are working around the mouth, I would dilute the 3 Volume peroxide, as I assume you will be using drug store bought 3 Volume, down to .5 Volume, by mixing 5 parts of water to 1 part of the 3 Volume peroxide. This water should be distilled water if you are making up more than a little at once, and even if not, it should be at least filtered water and not tap or bottled water, unless it is an ultra filtered water like Dasani or Aquafina. Peroxide is a very powerful substance that will work at even very small concentrations, so sometimes less is better than more, in terms of irritating any surrounding skin/flesh.

As to the broad spectrum antibiotics, if he is developing any kind of respiratory distress or other signs of infection I would start them. I don't have any experience with pox to say whether they should be started as a prophylactic, perhaps others will help with this.

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jules said:


> Good morning.
> Reti & Treesa; I’ve been using the Thuja occidentalis (in liquid form) since Nov 7.
> I will switch the external treatment of the lesions from Tea Tree oil to colloidal silver.
> Should I also administer the colloidal silver internally as well as the Thuja occidentalis?
> Julianne


Hi Julianne,

This is a viral infection and highly contagious to other birds, and can last up to 3 or 4 weeks or longer, given the initial condition of the bird.

I would continue to use the Thuja, but make sure you are using the correct dose for a bird that size. I have only used it in pilute form, and twice a day, but it usually does the trick within two weeks. You can still use the topical treatment or colloidal silver, it won't hurt to give it internally as well as externally. I would recommend a drop down the throat-per day.

Here is some more info. on it.

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/behandlung-englisch/specificinfections_pox.htm


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*regarding drainage, hydrogen peroxide*

Hi Julianne,

Please *DO NOT proceed with using hydrogen peroxide or with drainage* unless (for example, Pidgey or pdpbison/Phil or Jazaroo or Reti or Trees Gray or cyro51/Cynthia) someone with experience in dealing with canker recommends that you do so. 

I have no experience in dealing either with canker or with pox. I have only read a bit about them. 

I am throwing out ideas, some things for the experts on these forums to chew on. They may consider these ideas outlandish and dismiss them out of hand, and I would not feel in the least bit slighted or offended. Sometimes proposing extreme options, things "outside the envelope" or not the norm, helps one define in other terms what is beneficial and what is harmful. These techniques are things I might consider doing if I had a pigeon showing difficulty in breathing. (Upon further reflection I might not try them. I am not trying to be wishy-washy; I like to speculate and think about these things when the situation is not urgent. When the situation becomes more serious, I spit out what I am thinking and let others see them). 

In previous threads concerning canker, others recommended not trying to cut away or pull on or remove the canker, growths resembling cheese, less bleeding result. 

Cauterizing a wound has been one technique used in the past for stopping bleeding and for partial disinfection. Burns add their own poisons which the body must deal with. Using hydrogen peroxide is a way of oxdizing tissue, a form of "slow burn." So, I am not sure at what point using peroxide or draining would be introducing a solution to a problem, or where it would be introducing an additional problem. One has to consider and argue both sides of an issue before coming up with an answer. 

And sometimes you take risks, make mistakes, live with your mistakes, and the pigeon dies from your mistakes. 

So, take care. Above all, I try to do no harm to a pigeon. If I can bring assistance to a pigeon so that he can enjoy his life more, or a bit longer, then I am thankful.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Julianne, 

Re-read your last post.

If you made a small puncture with a red-hot needle to drain fluid, I do not think hydrogen peroxde applied with a Q-Tip or cotton-tipped stick would seal the puncture. I don't think the hydrogen peroxide would cauterize a wound with a lot of fluid. 

I do not know how much fluid would be drained off. I do not know the consistency or viscosity or thickness of the fluid. I can only speculate and imagine that it must be "such and such," perhaps like maple syrup, maybe like honey, or like thick pus, or like the thin plasma one sees seeping around the edges of something blotted onto a a piece of gauze. 

How much fluid can a pigeon afford to lose before his system is compromised? Too much loss, and the fluid needs to be replaced. You are the one on the scene. 

Also, like Jazaroo points out, a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide is a safe way to go if you decide to use it. To get a feel for how powerful the stuff is, you "could" touch a small sensitive spot on your body to see what it feels like. I always get some at the edge of a fingernail, on the side where the nail meets the flesh, even though I am somewhat careful, and it is not pleasant: it BURNS. 

When I give a pigeon something warm to drink, I first do the baby bottle fomula test on my wrist to test the temperature. I try not to do something to the pigeon I couldn't tolerate myself. Okay, I do toss them out an upper-story window occasionally, but they can fly. I once gave my sick pigeon *Wieteke* a small dose of what I thought was diluted ACV apple cider vinegar. I used a small syringe filled from a one-ounce whiskey shot glass. Afterwards I downed the remainder of the vinegar and gagged: the vinegar was not diluted, and the pigeon did not appreciate what I had done. Thank goodness I did not get any into his lungs. For several days I was apprehensive any time I heard any breathing noises 
coming from him. 

Sometimes we are experts at doing things we are not aware of, and would never knowingly and willingly choose to be known for. 

Larry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I must admit Larry... I am leaning towards attempting to drain at least one of the lesions (on the lower beak). I was waiting to see what others on here had to say about it.

I do have "Quik Klot". It's a topical styptic powder... and it is from the vet to be used on cats, dogs & birds. It's like the styptic pencil my Dad used to use when he cut himself shaving. It can be used on the beak. I have used it on pigeons before and the stuff's impressive. I'd forgotten I had it.

Thoughts?



Julianne


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you've got a blister that's translucent with clear fluid, you're not going to get much, if any, blood out of it. The ones out in the open would be easy to mess with but they're not the dangerous ones since the bird isn't going to choke on them or aspirate from them. If you're thinking about draining one in order to make the bird more comfortable, that's one thing. But be careful if you'd intended on trying it and then using the experience (if successful) to start working on lesions nearer to the danger zone. 

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Of course, you would have to worry that the exudate might create more lesions if it gets somewhere else on the bird.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Julianne,

Still chewing on this. *and Pidgey posted while I was "assembling" my post. Pidgey, you are so helpful. Glad you are watching over Julianne and her pigeon. *

Some stuff from Wikipedia:
=========

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Styptic pencil*

A styptic or hemostatic pencil is a short stick of medication, usually aluminum sulfate anhydrous, which is *used for stanching blood by causing blood vessels to contract at the site of the wound*.

Before safety razors were invented it was an essential part of a shaving kit and was used to seal cuts caused by improper shaving, although many people still continue to use safety razors and styptic pencils.

Styptic pencils are also useful for stopping the flow of blood when trimming a cat or dog's claws. While effective at stopping blood loss, the sting of the medication as it takes effect has been said to be worse than the pain of the cut itself.

A frequent source of confusion appears to be the difference between styptic and caustic pencils.

=======

*Caustic pencil*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A short stick of medication usually containing silver nitrate, used to cauterize skin, for instance for the treatment of nosebleeds, removal of warts, or pyogenic granuloma. They would not be used as a treatment for minor cuts.

A frequent source of confusion appears to be the difference between styptic and caustic pencils.

======

This is an interesting link I came across: 

EXCERPTS ....

*Avian Pox*

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html 

.....

Description

Avian pox is a mild to severe, slow developing disease of birds caused by an avipoxvirus and three common strains have been identified. The three strains are fowl pox virus, pigeon pox virus and canary pox virus. The strains vary in their virulence and have the ability to infect other avian species. However, many of the strains are group specific. Approximately sixty species of birds from 20 families have been diagnosed with avian pox. The strain seen in wild turkeys is the fowl pox virus.
Avian pox lesions (wart-like growths) occur on the unfeathered parts of the bird's body and, in some cases, the mouth, larynx, and/or trachea.

Distribution

Avian pox has been observed in a variety of avian hosts worldwide. The disease is most common in the temperate (warm and humid) parts of the world and is usually observed in relation to seasonal mosquito cycles. Avian pox has been diagnosed in upland game birds, songbirds (mourning doves and finches), marine birds, pet birds (canaries and parrots), chickens, turkeys, occasionally raptors and rarely in waterfowl. In Michigan, it has been diagnosed in the brown-headed cowbird, American goldfinch, ruffed grouse, mourning dove, broad-winged hawk, common raven, wild turkey, trumpeter swan, bald eagle, house sparrow, American robin, European starling, sandhill crane and American crow. Avian pox has been identified in birds since earliest history but it is still currently considered to be an emerging viral disease. All North American cases have been relatively recent.

Transmission

Transmission of the avian pox virus can occur in a number of ways. The disease can be spread via mechanical vectors, primarily by species of mosquitoes (at least 10). Transmission occurs when the mosquito feeds on an infected bird that has a viremia (pox virus circulating in the blood) present or on virus-laden secretions from a pox lesion and then feeds on an uninfected bird. Mosquitoes can harbor and transmit the virus for a month or longer after feeding on an infected bird. Experimentally, stable flies have shown the capability of being able to transmit the pox virus.
Avian pox can also be transmitted by direct contact between infected and susceptible birds. The virus is transmitted through abraded or broken skin or the conjunctiva (mucous membrane covering the anterior surface of the eyeball). Indirect transmission of the pox virus can also occur via ingestion when food and water sources, feeders, perches, cages, or clothing are contaminated with virus-containing scabs shed from the lesions of an infected bird. The pox virus is highly resistant to drying and may survive months to years in the dried scabs. Indirect transmission can also occur via inhalation of pox virus infected dander, feather debris and air-borne particles.
Mosquitoes are probably responsible for transmission within local areas, while wild birds are responsible for outbreaks over greater distances.

Clinical Signs

Clinical signs observed with avian pox are weakness, emaciation, difficulty in swallowing and breathing, vision problems, a reduction in egg production, soiled facial feathers, conjunctivitis, edema of the eyelids and the presence of the characteristic wart-like growths on the unfeathered portions of the skin and/or formation of a diphtheritic membrane on the upper portion of the digestive tract.

Pathology

Avian pox occurs in 2 forms, cutaneous (dry) and diphtheritic (wet). The cutaneous form is the most commonly observed and is a self-limiting infection with the lesions regressing and forming scars. Initially, this form of pox appears as a small white, pink or yellow vesicle (blister) on unfeathered parts of the skin (feet, legs, base of the beak, eye margins and head). The vesicle is a result of the separation of the surface layer of the skin with the formation of pockets of watery fluid rich in multiplying virus. The vesicles become nodules as they increase in size, coalesce and burst. Lymph from the cells congeals and scabs are formed. The surface of the nodules become rough and dry and the color changes to dark brown or black. The size and number of nodules present depends on the stage and severity of the infection. Bacteria may gain access causing secondary infection and resulting in a purulent discharge (pus) and necrosis. Eventually, the scab falls off and a scar forms at the site. It takes 2 to 4 weeks for complete healing of the affected areas on the skin providing the lesions aren't too extensive thereby preventing the bird from feeding.
The diphtheritic form involves the mouth, throat, trachea and lungs and consists of yellow or white, moderately raised, moist cheese-like necrotic areas. A diphtheritic membrane forms and may restrict air intake and result in labored breathing and possible suffocation.
Histologically, intracytoplasmic inclusion bodies (Bollinger bodies) are present in the infected skin and respiratory tract mucosa. In the diphtheritic form of the disease, nodular hyperplasia (increase in the number of cells) of the mucosa is observed.

Diagnosis

A presumptive diagnosis of avian pox can be made due to the gross lesions on the body. Confirmation of avian pox is accomplished by microscopic examination for the characteristic Bollinger bodies. Virus isolation by transmission of the organism via egg inoculation, serological results and polymerase chain reaction can also be a means of confirming the disease.

Treatment

There is no known treatment for avian pox in wild birds. In captive situations, there are a variety of treatments that have been used along with supportive care to treat the pox lesions and to prevent secondary infections in various avian species. These treatments consist of removing skin lesions and utilizing sodium bicarbonate or Lugol's solution of iodine washes, removing the diphtheritic membrane from the mouth and throat and swabbing the area with Lugol's solution of iodine, bathing the eyes with a 1-2% saline solution, and raising the environmental temperature. *In all cases, providing assistance for recovery may spread the infection to other parts of the skin *or to other birds.

Control

The best control for avian pox in captive (turkeys, pheasants, threatened and endangered species) and domestic (chickens and turkeys) birds is vaccination with a modified live vaccine. In wild birds, vaccination is not a feasible method of control.
Avian pox is a highly contagious disease and there are three primary control methods that can be used if infected birds are present. Eliminating standing water will control the primary vector, the mosquito. Infected birds should be isolated or culled to remove the source of the virus. Feeders, waterers, birdbaths and cages should be decontaminated with a 10% bleach solution.

Significance

There is no evidence that the avian pox virus can infect humans and therefore it is not a public health concern 

======

Check out the site, with photos. Sodium bicarbonate is baking soda (like Arm & Hammer, from Armand Hammer). 

Don't have much else useful to add at the moment, and need to go to bed soon. Anything else I say is speculation at this point. Good luck.

Larry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jules, this is JMO, but I wouldn't attempt to drain anything right now. Give the meds a chance to work.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*sigh*

Sometimes... no decision, is the best decision.

I will take the wait and see approach.

Um... I am going to "attempt" to take a shot of the inside of his mouth. It's going to take me a few minutes. And, honestly I don't know how successful I will be as: I am doing this alone - I have to hold his mouth open with one hand... well you can imagine. No need to go to the details.

I've got him on my desk (wrapped in warmed towels)... so I'm going to see what I can do. I have the worst vision... I hope I can get at least ONE focused shot. I think if you all could see the inside, you might... who knows. *shrug* 

Thanks

Julianne


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Not as up close or focused as I'd wanted.

[URL="[/URL]


Julianne


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Some more info re antiseptics*

Hello Julianne,

Here are *some excerpts* from the article

*Antiseptic*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiseptic

Antiseptics (Greek ????, against, and ????????, putrefactive) are antimicrobial substances that are applied to living tissue/skin to to reduce the possibility of infection, sepsis, or putrefaction. They should generally be distinguished from antibiotics that destroy microorganisms within the body, and from disinfectants, which destroy microorganisms found on non-living objects. Some antiseptics are true germicides, capable of destroying microbes (bacteriocidal), whilst others are bacteriostatic and only prevent or inhibit their growth. Antibacterials are antiseptics that only act against bacteria. 
=======

How it works

For the growth of bacteria there must be a certain food supply, moisture, in most cases oxygen, and a certain minimum temperature (see bacteriology). These conditions have been specially studied and applied in connection with the preserving of food and in the ancient practice of embalming the dead, which is the earliest illustration of the systematic use of antiseptics.

=======


Quaternary ammonium compounds

Also known as Quats or QAC's, include the chemicals benzalkonium chloride (BAC), cetyl trimethylammonium bromide (CTMB), cetylpyridinium chloride (Cetrim), cetylpyridinium chloride (CPC) and benzethonium chloride (BZT). Benzalkonium chloride is used in some pre-operative skin disinfectants (conc. 0.05 - 0.5%) and antiseptic towels. The antimicrobial activity of Quats is inactivated by anionic surfactants, such as soaps. Related disinfectants include chlorhexidine and octenidine. 

Octenidine dihydrochloride

A cationic surfactant and bis-(dihydropyridinyl)-decane derivative, used in concentrations of 0.1 - 2.0%. It is similar in its action to the Quats, but is of somewhat broader spectrum of activity. Octenidine is currently increasingly used in continental Europe as a QAC's and chlorhexidine (with respect to its slow action and concerns about the carcinogenic impurity 4-chloroaniline) substitute in water- or alcohol-based skin, mucosa and wound antiseptic. In aqueous formulations, it is often potentiated with addition of 2-phenoxyethanol.

Hydrogen peroxide

Used as a 6% (20Vols) solution to clean and deodorise wounds and ulcers. More common 1% or 2% solutions of hydrogen peroxide have been used in household first aid for scrapes, etc. However, even this less potent form is no longer recommended for typical wound care as the strong oxidization causes scar formation and increases healing time. Gentle washing with mild soap and water or rinsing a scrape with sterile saline is a better practice.

Iodine

Usually used in an alcoholic solution (called tincture of iodine) or as Lugol's iodine solution as a pre- and post-operative antiseptic. No longer recommended to disinfect minor wounds because it induces scar tissue formation and increases healing time. Gentle washing with mild soap and water or rinsing a scrape with sterile saline is a better practice. Novel iodine antiseptics, containing iodopovidone/PVP-I (an iodophor, complex of povidone, a water-soluble polymer, with triiodide anions I3-, containing about 10% of active iodine; commercial name Betadine) are far better tolerated, don't affect wound healing negativelly and are leaving a depot of active iodine, so-called remanent effect. The great advantage of iodine antiseptics is the widest scope of antimicrobial activity, killing all principial pathogenes and given enough time even spores, which are considered to be the most difficult form of microorganisms to be inactivated by disinfectants and antiseptics.


There are a number of other antiseptics mentioned, with interesting information.

Pretty good results with the camera, considering you had one hand for the pigeon and one for the camera. did you use a self-timer (shutter delay)? 

Seems like Pidgey and the others gave you good advice. "Wait and see" often works. After re-reading the articles on pox and antiseptics, it seems pox is nasty stuff and spreads easily.

When the lesions dry and change colors, usually getting darker just as blood darkens with drying, it may look worse but not necessarily be worse. 

Maybe you can get an inexpensive digital kitchen scale to monitor his weight on a day-to-day basis, and watch his poops for changes which would not show themselves quicker in other ways. I weighed one of my sick pigeons wrapped in a towel and set in the kitchen scale mixing bowl, then weighed the towel and bowl seperately afterwards (or you can tare the weights). I put a small stack of separated white kitchen towels under the pigeon, and circled with ballpoint pen and numbered the poops afterwards (this was during the first couple of days I had a pigeon who later died).

Best of luck,

Larry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

You gals/guys are just the best!

I think the pidgy and I are in this for the long haul. He seems to be up for it.  The colloidal silver is already making a difference in the drying of the lesions. There are new nodules coming up around his eyes... but that's to be expected. I've been applying Polysporin Opthalmic ointment on his eyes from the beginning to hopefully thwart off any permanent eye damage.

He's eating, drinking and pooping a lot (all on his own). His spirits (and mine) are lifted.  

So I am going to continue what I'm doing and we'll just "wait and see".

I'll keep you posted. Thank you all again.

Julianne

Oh... Larry... thank you for all your info... and those last shots I took... *hahaha* ... no... no timer. Those shots I posted were the best of about fifteen I took. Most of them ended up being a close-up of my finger.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is great news he is doing well ohterwise, considering his bad pox.
You're doing a great job with him. 

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sounds like things are on an upswing.

Thank you for the update, Julianne!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Glad to hear things are going better with him.

All the best,

Ron


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Loved reading your update Julianne, thank you. Looks like there's a lot of light at the end of the tunnel.  

You are doing a wonderful job. That sweet baby is *blessed* to have been placed in your hands, & believe me he *knows* it.  

Please do keep us posted.

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the good news update! I'm so glad things are looking better.

Terry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

*He's starting to wheeze.*

He'd been doing well, but he's just started to wheeze.

Don't know what to do.... I'm stressed about this.

Suggestions... please?


Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Can you see if something is obsructing his throat?
Keep him warm and well hydrated.
What meds is he on now?

Reti


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I keep him in my office in a small cage. I just turned the heating pad off this morning as I found he was either climbing on the food dish or staying on the latter half of the cage where the heating pad "wasn't".

Re: Meds: I'm applying the thuja occidentalis internally and the colloidal silver externally on the lesions. I'd been putting a little fresh garlic in his drinking water and sprinking some vitaminerals on his food. ALso putting polysporin (for eyes) on his eyes. Was on Spartrix. The lesions in his mouth have started drying... could he have swallowed some of it?

God... I'm hating to hear him like this.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, if he swallowed a fragment of the lesion it would be in the crop and won't harm him.
If he inhaled it that could be bad.
Another thought, I hope it is not the case, if he develops wet pox, this one affects the organs and is fatal most of the times.

Have you checked his inside of the mouth and throat? Could be an obstruction?

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jules said:


> Re: Meds: I'm applying the thuja occidentalis internally and the colloidal silver externally on the lesions. I'd been putting a little fresh garlic in his drinking water and sprinking some vitaminerals on his food. ALso putting polysporin (for eyes) on his eyes. Was on Spartrix. The lesions in his mouth have started drying... could he have swallowed some of it?


Julianne,

*PLEASE do not put any Thuja oil on the lesions that are internal. My rehabber just told me not to use it inside. Thuja oil is only for lesions on the outside.*

You can use tea tree oil mixed with water, and put it on a Q tip and put that on any internal lesions, also you can use the colloidal silver internally.

You can also use Neem oil on a Q tip and use that inside, but very sparingly.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

I cannot see any obstruction in his mouth, other than all the lesions. I have to be extremely carefull as his beak seems to be "soft".



> _Another thought, I hope it is not the case, if he develops wet pox, this one affects the organs and is fatal most of the times._



How can you tell the difference? I haven't put him on any antibiotics. Should I? I have a broad sprectrum that can go in his water and I have Baytril. Pilling him is difficult, but I'll manage if that's what best.


Julianne


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

A soft beak can be the result of a calcium and Vitamin D 3 deficiency.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Okay... now I am really confused.




> _If this is Pox, I would definitely "run" to your nearest health food store and get the homeopathic remedy, Thuja Occidentalis. This will get rid of any pox internally within a few weeks, and kick the immune system in gear. _



I've been giving him 2/3 drops three times a day. Not on the lesions, but down the throat.

It's from the homeopathic store and dosage for humans is 10 drops sublingual 3 times a day. 
Are you saying that that I shouldn't be giving him this?

I was using the Tea tree oil on the external lesions, but it was recommended that I switch to colloidal silver, which I did.

Julianne


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> If this is Pox, I would definitely "run" to your nearest health food store and get the homeopathic remedy, Thuja Occidentalis. This will get rid of any pox internally within a few weeks, and kick the immune system in gear.
> 
> *]Use 3 small pilutes per dose for a large pigeon, 2 for a small one, twice a day. *
> 
> You can use tea tree oil, or Thuja oil, on any topical lesions not near the eyes or beak.


This is a tablet, not the oil.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Pilling him has been difficult so instead of the thuja occidentalis pills I got the liquid form (from Thompson's Homeopathic). It does NOT say that it is oil. It says that it is Homeopathic medicine drops and dosage is as mentioned for people; 10 drops 3 times daily sublingual.

Julianne


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jules said:


> Pilling him has been difficult so instead of the thuja occidentalis pills I got the liquid form (from Thompson's Homeopathic). It does NOT say that it is oil. It says that it is Homeopathic medicine drops and dosage is as mentioned for people; 10 drops 3 times daily sublingual.
> 
> Julianne


Whew! okay then, as long as it states that it can be taken internally then that is fine.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re fresh garlic in oil*

Jules,

I don't want to interfere with the expert advice you seem to be getting, but is the litle pidgie actually drinking his water (with fresh garlic in it)? 

If he is thirsty enough, he will, but I have never had a pigeon of mine ever drink any water which had garlic in it. (They would rather do without). They weren't sick, however, and had access to outside sources of water. 

Larry


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Boy... nothing like thinking you're giving the wrong medication to get the heart pumping into overdrive!


Still don't know what to do about his wheezing. It's not a good sign.


Julianne


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Larry, I actually grow garlic for the purpose of putting it in all the outdoor bird baths that I have (seven so far).

The concentration is low... and I've never seen it to be an issue. The benefits of garlic for pigeons... well all birds is great.

In reference to your question, is this little guy drinking the water with the garlic in it.... yes.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How long has he been on the Baytril?

If it would be internal pox, there is nothing you can do about it. Antibiotics won't help.

Of course he could also have aquired a respiratory infection due to his weakened immune system.
If baytril is the only antibiotic you have you can start him on that.
When was the last dose you gave him?

Reti


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

He hasn't been on any antibiotics. I have the broad sprectrum antibiotics that I can give.

Julianne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Jules said:


> He hasn't been on any antibiotics. I have the broad sprectrum antibiotics that I can give.
> 
> Julianne



Which one?

Reti


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

It's just something I had picked up from the pet store, not from the vet. By Marvel Aid, contains sulfadimethoxine 15 mg. per fluid ounce.

Julianne


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules, while there may be illness related reasons for the wheezing, another thought would be that this little guy is having some swallowing impairment
regardless. Perhaps some of the liquid has gone down the wrong hole into the
air sacs/lungs. Even allowing him to do the swallowing himself in his predicament may get some fluids in there. If you are uncomfortable w/crop
medicating, perhaps using a dropper and just dropping all the way to the back of the throat while holding his beak pointed upwards would help. You can rub
his throat on the outside afterwards to encourage him to swallow on his own.
How long has the pij been off canker meds?

fp


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Garlic*

Jules, 

I was in a hurry on my last post about my pigeons not drinking water with garlic in it. They get their garlic; I use a good garlic oil (a Belgian or German brand for pigeons, actually!) on their food, and keep it in the fridge to preserve it, and add some freeze-dried probiotic powder to stick to the seeds when I do. 

To be more specific, I don't rely on them getting the amount of garlic I would like them to have (I myself might eat four or five cloves of fresh garlic on a home-made pizze, or in a salad -- maybe I overdo it, don't know). But sometimes my pigeons don't drink much.

My rescued and hand-raised male pigeon *Wieteke* now lives full-time outdoors (as opposed to spending only the days outside before that), and comes to the window flowerbox or seeds several times a day. Several weeks ago he drank 10-15 cc's of water in two or three gulps. Nothing since. I offer him water with vitamins, but, no apparent interest. Even on days when I think there is not much water available. Today he was on the box, resting, then he spent four or five minutes in place flapping his wings. Unusual behavior for him. It was drizzly; my wife sggested that he was drying his wingsd, but he flapped after I held him a bit and had him warm and dry (temperature in the low 40?s Fahrenheit, 3-4?Celsius last night). He did pass a big stool (olive-sized), plenty moist, which seemed to require some exertion. I dosed him with some vitamins from a syringe, and he slung most of it onto my shirt. Usually I would add a drop or two of garlic oil to the mix (but couldn't locate it in time today). Later, he seemed okay. 

I'm just saying that if put something in their water, they may or may not drink it, and garlic is one thing they seem to neglect. Garlic oil on the seeds they eat, because they are always hungry.

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules said:


> It's just something I had picked up from the pet store, not from the vet. By Marvel Aid, contains sulfadimethoxine 15 mg. per fluid ounce.
> 
> Julianne


This would be Albon, which can be used for respiratory infections and is also
used as a coccidiostat. The recommended dosage would be 25mg/kg q12hx5d.

That's if an antibiotic would help.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Jules, I'm very sorry that he has started wheezing. Does he do any open mouth breathing or seem in any distress when breathing other than the wheezing sound.

JMO, but I would not give him the Marvel. I would go ahead and start him on the Baytril so long as it doesn't interefere with any of the other products you are giving him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Jules said:


> It's just something I had picked up from the pet store, not from the vet. By Marvel Aid, contains sulfadimethoxine 15 mg. per fluid ounce.
> 
> Julianne


That sure seems dilute. In one formulary that I have (the newest), it shows Sufladimethoxine as being given at 25 milligrams per kilogram of bird, PO, BID. That's just one reference. There's also another at 250 milligrams per kilogram, IM, BID for Coccidiosis. Anyhow, at the concentration that you're showing, it sure would be a lot of fluid to give to the bird.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess this is the stuff:

http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=809

Is this stuff intended to be given as the only water that the bird gets to drink? That seems to me to be about the only way to use it...

What do the instructions say?

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, she won't have to worry about the 250mg per kilogram dosage given
by syringe, but fluids could likely be an issue w/swallowing problems. Although
it would deal w/two issues simutaneously.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I have used the Marvel aid on a warbler in the past. The warbler had some respiratory problems and that is all I had available at the time. It did just fine on it and it was administered as the sole source of its drinking water. However, I feel more comfortable using a product, like Baytril, that I know will do the job.


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Yes Pidgey. 

Administer full strength solution as the sole source of drinking water. Use fresh solution daily for 5 consecutive days.

Feralpigeon, I can open his beak for a moment or two at most. As mentioned, his beak is on the "soft" side, and I am careful not to cause any more stress. Also, the lesions have caused the lower beak to become quite deformed (hopefully this will only be temporary).

Lady Tarheel, with the lesions being where they are, he has been unable to close his beak at all. He has been "quieter" than normal today, the air passages on his beak have been clogged with mucus. I have been trying to swab them to keep them clear. He's just now, for the first time today showing any interest in eating.


Julianne


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

More advice/assistance needed (please).

A picture would be worth one thousand words. Unfortunately, with the softness of his beak, I am unable to take one.

Current status: The wheezing has "seemed" to subsided.

The lesion in the bottom of his beak is humungous as well it has split lengthwise. This has left him unable to pick up ANY seed.

I have never crop fed. I reviewed all the "crop feeding/medicating info on pigeons.biz and I think with some assistance I would attempt that.... BUT and it's a big BUT... his beak is soft. I almost feel with the combined softness of his beak and all the lesions, it would not take much to snap part of his beak off. Not something I want to happen. *sigh*

So.. I am feeding him one seed at a time. More issues. The bottom beak is so swollen there is a small opening where I can "push" in a small seed (rye size). I am very carefully opening his beak and popping in larger, high quality seed, but one at a time. Because of the size & length of the lesion in his lower beak he is unable to move the seed to the back of his throat where he would be able to swallow it. So I put in the seed, then take the insert part of an insulin needle (minus needle of course) and through the opening in his lower beak I "push" the seed back in his throat where he can then swallow it. *sigh*

I tried liquifying baby bird food mix and dropping it in the side of his beak (one drop at a time) but he would either not swallow it or it would clog the opening or he would cough. So I've gone back to the one seed at a time feeding. 

Bless his little heart... because I show him the seed first (to get his approval) and he has such limited vision (the lesions around his eyes are continuing to multiply AND grow). Sometimes he wavers his beak a tad or he closes his eyelid (I take that as a sign of approval) or he'll shake his head (okay...so he doesn't want that seed). Sure hope I'm getting the signs right 'cos he's getting a lot of dried peas! *smile*

He seems to be able to still take in water, but I give him some anyway.

Now for the questions. I am open to suggestions for feeding options.

Next, I have started him on the 1/4 tablet/day of Baytril... but can I also put liquid calcium in his water or will that affect the Baytril?

If it is okay... when should his beak start improving? When will the pox slow down this rampant growth... does anyone know? 

So far, I am not seeing any improvement using the Thuja Occidentalis internal medicine or the colloidal silver on the external lesions.

How much is this guy suffering? Is he in pain? Should I be giving him a drop of metacam daily for pain?

BTW - I caught another pox pigeon yesterday. *sigh* Not as bad (yet). Started him on Spartrix, etc. Hope I can have them both in the same room (my office) because I am running out of rooms with doors (four cats in the house).

Thanks,

Julianne


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Julianne,

I thought I would pipe in on the tube feeding.

With tube feeding the way you describe the situation with his beak, I would be using a "real" crop feeding needle like this one: http://www.stuff4birds.com/cropneed.htm . This is the same link as I posted before to get meds and supplies locally. I actually have the 8 gage pictured, but I also have a 16 gage used for birds like Budgies up to Cockatiel size. I did not get them from here, but they are from Vetafarm, like the one pictured. Most times I actually use a rubber one on the Pidges', but I have them around as soft tubes should not be used hook-bills (I have Parrots, Budgies and a Cockatiel) for obvious reasons.

The 16 gage is 1/16" across with a ball on the end as shown, except much smaller of course. I am thinking that with this sized needle the mouth would not have to be opened much at all to get some nourishment into him. The Kay-Tee mix would be quite a bit thinner than with a larger gage, but it would help with his hydration and meds could be added at the same time.

I am not sure if E&R carries the 16 gage, I see they have a 10, but I am not sure what the sizing on that would look like close up (larger number= smaller needles). Happy to let you borrow my 16 and show you how to use it if you like.

As I said, no experience with pox, so I will let others advise on that. However, with the Baytril, calcium will prevent proper absorption of the drug. 

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That'd be the best thing is if you two could physically hook up for this. Since you're both in the same city, that'd be ideal. Best of luck.

By the way, topical treatments can't get to the depths of where the mutated tissue is generating from. It would have to soak through tissue and topicals don't really do that unless it's some kind of a special drug with a carrier molecule like DMSO. An analogy to explain that would be like a lacquer-thinner solvent carrying a stain into wood. And even then, the drug would have to be an anti-viral that we haven't invented yet. The best that you're going to hope for in a case like that is for the topicals to dry the outside so that weepage doesn't spread the effect laterally but even that might be a theoretical concern rather than a reality.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That sounds like a really bad pox. I wonder if there is also something else going on.
I am thinking since pox is a virus from the herpes family and for humans we use Acyclovir for herpes zoster, varicella in adults and herpes simplex all caused by herpes virsus, if the use of Zovirax ( Acyclovir) would help a pigeon.
You need a prescription for this, but there is an OTC cream or ointment for cold sores, also caused by herpes virus. I wonder if it would work or at least help with the lesions in pox.
I talked about it once with my vet and he said acyclovir could be used for pox, it is essentially in the same family of herpes viruses.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti,

I don't remember why, but I'm pretty sure that Acyclovir is mentioned in the AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION book. Look it up and have a read! So very fortunate for me (and my local birds), I haven't had a pox problem here--never have even seen it.

Of course, if it would pan out for this bird, it sure would have been nice if we'd have thought of that earlier, huh?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Ok, I just looked it up, it can be used, but there has been no reasearch conclusive if it does really help.
They talk only about the oral, iv, and im form being used.

In this case I would use it, if you can't get the tablets, try the cream, it won't hurt him, just don't put it in the eye.

Reti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This is an Aussie site but has great pictures of crop needles aka gavage needles: http://www.kimani.com.au/crop_needles3.html

You have to look a bit for suppliers in North America, but these are readily available. I couldn't make it through baby bird season without them .. yes .. I have different sizes for different birds, but if you can only buy one, then get the #14 and curved (my personal preference).

I also often use mammal feeding tubes from my vet that I cut down to size as well as plain old aquarium tubing that is "fitted" for the task.

As stated many times here on Pigeon-Talk, I SWEAR by the #14 curved for pigeons.

IMPORTANT NOTE: You need Luer Lock syringes in order to use the stainless crop needles .. these syringes allow you to screw the feeding
attachment on.

Julianne .. best of luck to you with this bird, but you really do need to find a way to get sufficient nutrition and or meds in .. a tube feeding of some type is so easy and so sure to accomplish this.

JMO

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> Ok, I just looked it up, it can be used, but there has been no reasearch conclusive if it does really help.
> They talk only about the oral, iv, and im form being used.
> 
> In this case I would use it, if you can't get the tablets, try the cream, it won't hurt him, just don't put it in the eye.
> ...


I looked it up, too. I read from that not that it hasn't been tried--only that there haven't been results impressive enough to promote it to the status of a generally utilized protocol. Of course, that was from a 12 year old book. I went ahead and looked it up in the much-newer books from Harrison and only really found it in the formulary. It doesn't have a listed use for pigeons at all, and the other references typically mention it being used for Pacheco's disease, which is what the former book primarily discussed. That's a completely different thing and it seems that's the only thing that they really use it for in birds.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

What is Pacheco's Disease? Didn't have time to look that one up.
Anyways, I would give it try since it seems to work for all herpes viruses.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

A disease in psittacines, usually very bad (deadly) and very fast. They usually only use Acyclovir when it's suspected, probably more based on known exposure.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pacheco's disease is a viral hepatitis caused by a herpes virus according to
Linda Pesek DVM, so still in the right family so to speak. Plumb's does note a 
precaution/contraindication (assess risk-benefit) during dehydrated states.
So if possible to tube nutrition/fluids as mentioned to ensure hydration then perhaps a PO administration, and at least the OTC Acyclovir cream topically
as mentioned.

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

The little guy didn't make it.


Right now I am so torn apart.

Thank you all so much for all your assistance with this little guy. I really wanted him to pull through. When I was feeding him at 4 this morning, I saw he was becoming weak...but the lesions... they were drying and the ones in his mouth/beak were starting to break apart. I prayed that we were turning a corner. 

I was researching using L-Lysine, which I use if I ever "feel" a coldsore coming on. Haven't had one now for over ten years. Research indicated that there has been success using L-Lysine with chicken Pox.

Oh... I just get too emotional when this happens. Sorry Guys.

Julianne.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry the bird didn't make it, Julianne. I know exactly how you are feeling and am sending you some big hugs.

Terry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry, Julianne. This little baby had the best care and was so loved, I am sure he knew it.
It is possible he also had wet pox (internal) and this is usually fatal.
I am sorry, I was hoping also he would pull through.

Reti


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I AM SO SORRY!

SENDING COMFORTING HUGS AT THIS SAD TIME! 

I know you did the best you could!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I am so sorry to hear your little patient passed away Julianne.  
*Thank you*, & please be assured *he* was ever so grateful, for the love, care & support you gave him.

*"Bless you sweet baby. May you now fly free with all our pigeon angels."*

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Julieanne, I am so sorry. I had hoped he would pull through. Just know that many of us have gone through this and know exactly how you feel.

As a rehabber, I am so grateful for you taking in this precious little bird, giving him a chance and showing him love and comfort.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Julieanne, I'm so sorry to hear your pigeon didn't turn that corner all the way.
He had the best of care in your hands, and surely h/she knew that at all times
you were doing the best you could to ease suffering and give comfort. 

fp


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## Jules (Nov 28, 2003)

Thank you for your words of support. I still have a garage full of rehabs to care for and the new guy with Pox. But this little guy... geeze... I so wanted him to make it.

Why is it that I can have such a high success/survival ratio with pigeons with PMV yet the one I pore my heart and soul into succumbs?

What I am haunted by... is his suffering. Was I doing the humane thing, or should I have taken him to my cat Vet to have him put down to end his suffering? Who am I to think I could fix this guy? I'm not a Vet or an accredited wildlife rehabber.

How do you folks know when to make these decisions? At what point is it time to end the suffering?

Now I have this new Pox pigeon and I find myself hesitating and questioning what is the best course of action.

Don't mind me... I guess I am just thinking aloud... and feeling so distraught. 


Julianne


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jules, in terms of not being an accredited wildlife rehabber or vet, you're probably keeping similar company here in most instances. And that's not too
shabby a role to play in that it helps to keep the numbers more managable for
those in an official capacity, as well as giving a safe place for those cases
that might be borderline PTS candidates especially because of the 'nursing'
or supportive care that might not be available to them in a 'professional' environment. If this pigeon had turned the corner and kept on going with
you, the thanks you would have received from h/her would have answered
your questions in a nutshell. You did an outstanding job, it was an uphill
battle, and many of us simply don't have the resources or relationship
with a closeby vet to have the option of diagnostic tests and returning
home with our patient. 

So don't beat up on yourself, sounds like you're a very dedicated individual
who wants the best for your patients and does the very best to see that
they receive just that.

fp


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I am so sorry, Julianne. It is so hard on your heart when they don't make it, but you gave him a chance and he knew he was loved. 

My condolences,
Licha


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*The passing of your lttle pigeon with the beak lesions*

Juliannne,

I am so sorry the little one didn't make it. Hilde and I were so hoping that he would.

I have been having some breathing troubles myself (doc said infection, am on cipro) and doubly apreciate what some of these pigeons go through with breathing troubles. I was researching acyclovir (in Texas A&M 1996 article, http://www.cvm.tamu.edu/Schubot/) and in a holistic med site for parrots, http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn04/spring04/deadlyps.htm, which recommended cloves to counter bad side effects), found some cheap sources of supply, and found some sites on feeding syringe blunt needles, but didn't find much that I didn't think Pidgie and Jazaroo and the others weren't already up on. I took a sleeping break, only to come back on-line and find out that he passed away. 

I think his system was simply overwhelmed (perhaps this is stating the obvious, after it has happened) and at this stage there wasn't much you could do. 

Make sure you clean and disinfect everything well, so other pidgies are affected. The stuff can hang around for a long time. (Just so you don't overlook this in your grief).

Having had pneumonia a number of times, and difficulty breathing, it can really tire you out, and you are glad when you are healed and it is over. When you are exhausted you become unaware of most everything else around you. You don't concentrate, and you sometimes drift off. I dont think he was aware of the lesions when he was real tired. Yesterday went to the doctor, had trouble focusing on walking, had 23% lung function (stated as FEV1, forced expiratory volume per second or minute in liters) before inhaling antibiotic and 20% after inhaling. Gasping for breath just sititing still sometimes. Other times relaxed and at ease. It's not fun, and I think animal with smaller body mass go quicker than larger animals -- I suppose. Haven't takent that rip to its end, however, and I always wanted to hang on and recover.

I think the little pigeon knew you cared, and that made his end easier for him. Knowing someone is there can be very comforting, even when they can't do much for you. 

You talked about the softness of his beak. I have a pigeon skull. If you take four toothpicks (preferably the older-fashioned flat oar-shaped ones as opposed to the round, double-cone shaped ones), and made a tripod of the ends, you would approximate the part of the upper beak between the ceres and the tip. Four very thin cross-sections, about a millimeter thick and 2.5 millimeters wide for each piece. Pretty strong, but not much volume. Take four more toothpicks, and in two wedge-shaped cross-sections you have the supporting structure of the lower beak. ( guess I need to draw a picture of this sometime). The rest is flesh. Good for picking up seeds and twigs and pulling the neck feathers of your fellow rival pigeon, but not a tool for cracking walnuts or chewing nails. His beak could be quite strong, the bone possibly not affected by the lesions, and it might be hard for you to tell the difference. Now that he is dead, you might see if his beak does indeed bend sideways with very llttle lateral force applied by you. If it is, it might provide valuable information for us the next time PT encounters a pox situation. 

Give him a nice burial, and put a flower at the grave for me (and Hilde) (if it doesn't inconvenience you), or, I will wish him a nice flower. Thanks from me personally, for what it is worth, for helping him.

Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear your little bird didn't make it. I know how you feel, we have all been there at one point, and you feel so helpless.

Sending thoughts of comfort to you and a big hug.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Julianne, the reason we go on is because there is always hope that we can pull one through.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Julienne, 

Thought you might be interested in what this site has to say about 
treating Pox:

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/infectious-diseases.php#id12

"*Treatment:* There is no specific treatment for poxvirus disease (in captivity, supportive therapy may improve the chances of survival and reduce discomfort)."

Don't underestimate the impact of your supportive care in reducing discomfort.

fp


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## WildlifeVetToBe (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi, i was just researching pox because my little Roger has it, I am so sorry for your loss and completely understand how absolutely devastating it is to lose a bird youve been fighting for. 

Me and Roger send our love

XxX


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