# Injured Wood Pigeon - EMERGENCY PLS HELP!



## morphix

Hi all,

Yesterday evening I rescued a wood pigeon which I found wandering around on the bus lane..it was injured, confused and bleeding from its wings and unable to fly.. I think it looks like it may have been attacked by a cat or bird of prey, it had bloody wounds on both sides on its wings, and one of them is possibly broken as the bird tried repeatedly to fly but was unable to use that wing properly.

The wound on the one side looks maybe superficial and the wing is fine, but the other side with the bad wing looks quite deep, like claws have pierced the flesh. There was lots of blood and feathers broken. 

I managed to corner the bird reasonably quick..it soon gave up running. I was utterly helpless not being able to fly and just looked at me helplessly. Poor thing  I couldn't just leave it there so I popped it in my rucksack and rode back home on my bike as carefully as I could.

When I got the bird back, I examined it quickly. It felt dehydrated (could feel its chest bones)..one of the wings is definitely damaged and can't be opened fully, the other looks fine. No obvious outward signs of any illness of disease. I put the pigeon in a large box with some tissue paper to keep it warm, water and bird seed. I put a cover over it to calm it down but left a small gap.

After an hour or so I cleaned up the wounds as best I can with an anti-bacterial and saline warm water solution. The pigeon actually perched onto the edge of the box and remained perfectly still while I bathed its wounds..ahh it was almost like it wanted to be helped. It remained perched and its eyes were closing and I'm not sure if it was just very tired from its ordeal or going into shock.

I decided to gently return it to the box and put it into a quiet place with the cover partially over again and I left it alone..I assume that was the best thing to do to let it get over the shock. I didn't expect it to the last the night, but I'm surprised to see its alive and looking bright and stable today...The wounds have dried up now and no fresh blood is coming. The injuries may not be as bad as they appear, but I'm worried about infection and a possible broken wing or other injuries.

OK few questions for you..

The bird doesn't seem to be drinking any water, I've held the bowl up to its beak and even dipped its beak in to encourage it, but it won't drink.. 

*Should I try and give it water by dropper, or is that likely to distress the it more?*

*I was planning on taking it to the vet this evening after work for some treatment.. Do you think I should wait a bit longer, or take it today?*

I'm a bit nervous about taking it to a regular vet, as I know they often just put injured pigeons to sleep. If there is any chance the bird could make a recovery I'd like to either rehabilitate it myself or find someone more specialised in this locally who can. 

*Am I likely to be charged by the Vet for treatment? I read somewhere that vet's are not allowed by law to charge for treating wild animals, but not sure if that is true or not..I don't mind paying, but just wanted to check whether I need to?*

*Assuming there's little chance the bird could recover or fly again, do you think the best thing would be to have it put to sleep then? Or should I try and get it housed by a local sanctuary?* 

I know there is at least one that will home birds that can't fly, but I'm just worried it might not be a good quality of life for a wild bird.. phew. This is a hard position to be in as I love animals.

Anyway thanks everyone for reading and sharing your thoughts..

Paul 


Attached is a photo of the pigeon showing the injury before I cleaned it.










UPDATE. The bird has just started eating a bit of bird seed which is a positive sign. It's standing but not moving around, doesn't seem to be in any obvious pain and is looking all around.


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## Feefo

Hi Paul,

Best not to try to force it to drink. Leave the water with it, it will drink when it feels comfortable.

I have just answered your e-mail, just wanted to add that I received two adult woodies that were unable to fly some years ago: one from the vet and one from a sanctuary. They became mates, built a nest, had eggs...they were definitely happy and doing all the things that woodies would normally do apart from flying and getting shot.

There is no law that requires vets to treat wild birds for free. Some will give their time free or at a reduced rate and only charge for treatment but that is up to the individual vet.



Cynthia


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## Dobato

Paul, thanks for helping this little one out. I see Cynthia has replied, you are in very good hands, this little one will need some antibiotics ASAP. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## morphix

Hi Cynthia and Karyn, thanks very much. 

The pigeon is now on it's way to see the vet..I couldn't go so my mother has taken it. It was very upsetting to see it go..although it's only been here 24 hours I've grown attached to it and feel responsible for its care. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it just needs antibiotics and can be returned for rehabilitation. But I guess I have prepared myself for the worse.. 

People may say I'm being silly over a pigeon but for me each animal is an individual living creature. I feed squirrels and birds on my balcony and I feel to get to know them. 

Will keep you updated...


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## morphix

*UPDATE Back from the Vet*

Good news! The vet checked the pigeon over and said the wounds
are superficial and there's no serious injuries. Both wings are fine. She said
said he has lost a lot of feathers on one wing but it shouldn't prevent
him flying once he's healed. She gave him antibiotics and told me
the same as Cynthia, to feed him corn and water. She things he will be well
enough to fly in 2-3 days time. So soon! Anyway she said he's strong
and feisty and has plenty of life in him!  

When they say corn, do they mean maize/sweetcorn? There is some dried
in the All Seasons bird seed mix I'm feeding him..but I also have some fresh
frozen sweetcorn which might be better for him (thawed and brought to room temperature)?

Here's a picture i just took of him in his box..his wound looks much better since I cleaned
it up eh.


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## pdpbison

Do some 'googles' and find out what Wood Pigeons actually eat.


Then do your best then, to provide such of that as you can, and or to augment it sensibly with alternatives which are nutritionally similar.

There are no conditions in which a 'opne Seed' diet will be good for any Granivorous or Omnivorous Bird.

Obtain some good topical Antibiotic Oinment or Salve, and apply it to the injured areas inside and out, on the Wings. This will help keep things soft, and, prevent further injury in flexing and allow more comfort. Do not let the injuries dry and and harden as they are starting to do now.

Allow this Bird no less than three weeks for recovery and then find a way to evaluate how well they are able to Fly, to gain altitude swiftly, fly straight 'up', and so on, possibly by appealing to someone who has a large Aviary or other condition where this may be tested, and, the Bird released if all is well, or, gathered up if not up to parr.

No way would this Bird be ready for release in three days.

Ideally, one would wait a Month or even two, to see how the injury has resolved, and or whether the Joints are becoming 'frozen' or have lost or are loosing or gaining flexibility and correct function.


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Do some 'googles' and find out what Wood Pigeons actually eat.
> 
> Obtain some good topical Antibiotic Oinment or Salve, and apply it to the injured areas inside and out, on the Wings.
> 
> Allow this Bird no less than three weeks for recovery and then find a way to evaluate how well they are able to Fly, to gain altitude and so on, possibly by appealing to someone who has a large Aviary or other condition where this may be tested.
> 
> No way would this Bird be ready for release in three days.
> 
> Ideally, one would wait a Month or even two, to see how the injury has resolved, and or whether the Joints are becoming 'frozen' or have lost or are loosing or gaining flexibility and correct function.
> 
> No one-Seed diet would ever be good for any Bird.
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Thanks Phil for the info..I must say I'm very sceptical myself he will be ready to fly in just 3 days. But the vet just seems to think he's mostly in shock and has superficial cuts which will heal quickly. If he is staying longer than a few days maybe I should get him settled in the loft where he will be further away from me. I know the best policy with wild animals is to have as little contact as possible while they're recovering. 

It's going to be difficult to see if he can fly properly safely in the area where I live. It's not very suitable, loads of cats everywhere.. but I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it... there is a quiet hill I could take him to in a travel carrier.


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## pdpbison

I have had Wing Bite Pigeons who in six Months were still no where near being ready for release...and, some never will be, and some heal perfectly and may be released once ready.

There is nothing so Heart dropping, as releasing a Bird, only to see them fly poorly, and land 30 feet away, take off again and fly badly some little ways on, where then usually, it is no easy matter chasing them to get them rounded up again! Or in chasing them, they fly over Fences with Dogs or whatever in a Yard, and...Oye...

So, one really does well, and does best to make sure the Bird IS up to parr, before releasing.

Those little Teeth Bites in a Joint of the Wing can go lots of ways as far as how it heals.

Sometimes a Joint will over-ossify and become 'frozen', sometimes there is damage to the Joint which will heal well but takes some weeks or more.

On and on...

You just have to deal with each one as a unique individual, and see.


I would not permit the Bird to try flying for at least a couple weeks, myself.

If they are in a ample enough Cage for full Wing extentions, you will be able to see when they are sort of flapping for exercise or doing other things, which alert you then to how as far as they are concerned, they do feel ready to try using the Wings again...so one waits for things like this, letting the Bird be one's guide.

Otherwise, they can try and fly before the injury is really healed enough, and, damage things that way, especially if they are nervous or deciging ao take off because they feel Wild and a person is standing there...so, some of this is sublte, as for how we have to manage things and protect them from hurting themselves.

Just because a Bird CAN fly soon after an injury, does not mean it should be permitted to Fly 'yet'.


Post good close up fresh poops images every day or to...the stress of injury can occasion illness, as well as, that many Birds who do escape predation events, were already under par with some illness or other, which is why the Cat or Dog got ehm, in the first place.

So, posting Poop images can help us for seeing signs which can suggest the presence or advent of various illnesses.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

Did the vet send you home with some antibiotics to continue treatment at home? If yes, what kind and at what dose?

Karyn


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## John_D

Hi Paul,

A wound inflicted by a predator calls for an antibiotic to prevent spread of infection. Certainly for a cat-caught pigeon we would give Synulox (aka Noroclav) at two tablets a day for at least seven days.

Woodpigeons would feed on grains and seeds, certain nuts and berries and green leaf. It is difficult to provide all of this in captivity, but our woodies and those who come to the garden feeder will all eat mixed corn (grain and maize), small raw peanuts in moderation, and seed mix which we get for our rescue pigeons (grass and various 'weed' seeds, hemp seed, sunflower hearts, safflower among other things). Our woodies enjoy crisp lettuce, too. Another thing they seem to relish is chopped up leaf of spinach, wild rocket and watercress - probably similar to the greens they would eat in the wild. 

If this one needs help with feeding, then you can certainly give him thawed out frozen peas and sweetcorn if you can hand feed him.


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## PigeonQueen

Phil is right, no way will this pigeon be ready to fly away in a few days. Three weeks at least to get over the shock. Also fighting infection with antibiotics the pigeon needs to rest.Good luck and thanks for caring.


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## pdpbison

Mmmmmmmm...Watercress...I am about to go to the store anyway, I think I will get some for myself!


Anyway, may we have some nice poop images, and, some more images of the lovely Woodie himself?


I am concerned he may have been ill when mauled, so...


Anyway, do please tell us what Antibiotic the Vet provided, and, how it is being dosed so the dose can be verified by those here who are good at crunching those sorts of numbers.


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## morphix

*UPDATE Day 3*

This morning I looked in on the woodie and there were a fair few fresh droppings overnight (see photo below)..

I had a proper debriefing last night with my mother who kindly took the pigeon to the vet yesterday (despite her fear of birds!) while I was working... apparently, and to my surprise, the vet never gave the pigeon any antibiotics. She thought the wounds were superficial and as the woodie was healthy and strong it didn't need antibiotics.. I would of thought based on what you guys have said, with cats having bacteria etc, it would be been more prudent to air on the side of caution. 

Anyway she said to keep cleaning the wound daily with saline solution, so I did it again this morning and just a few drops of an anti-bacterial solution. He actually jumped and perched on the top of the box again and was as good as gold. Kept very still and even turning around several times to let me do the other side for him.

The wounds look to be healing nicely, but I am worried about possibility of infection still as it might be difficult to spot in a bird to someone like myself who isn't experienced?

I agree with you guys that he is likely to need weeks rather than days to recover and be able to fly again. So on that basis, I decided to move the woodie to the loft as I thought it more practical than him being in the bath tub, also less stressful for him. I have flooring down up there and it's quite warm but airy. You can hear the sounds of birds outside so it might be more like a natural environment for him while he is recovering. Although it is quite dark up there as there are no windows..don't know if that is a problem for the pigeon with feeding etc, so I've left the lights on for now..they are not too bright though and I've put a bed sheet three quarters of the way over his box anyway to stop him flying out as it might be difficult to catch him up there. I have cleaned the box out, lined with cardboard and fresh tissue paper bedding and everything he needs food/water is inside the box at one end.

I hope I'm doing everything right, if anyone has any tips or advice on how to do things differently I'd be grateful.

I'm still feeding the woodie "Supreme Wild All Seasons Bird Mix", which contains White Millet, Red Millet, Red Dari, Kibbled Maize, rape, naked oats and other seeds.. I also have given him some fresh sweetcorn from the freezer..I think he likes the fresh corn as he's eaten 5g of it overnight. The water has gone down 2g also so it looks like he's drinking a bit finally.

Sorry I didn't get chance to take any photo of the woodie today he was getting a bit stressed while his box was being cleaned out and tried to fly, he flew a short distance under the sink.. I thought it best not to prolong it and just get him back in the box quickly as possible as he was looking quite agitated and distressed. He's still quite fragile and falls over easily. Poor thing. 

As I type this it's 8:30am and there are lots of pigeons and sparrows coming to my balcony for their morning feed..the pigeons tend to fight each other and "wing slap" as I put it to chase other pigeons away. Even though I have two feeding trays.


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## morphix

John_D said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> A wound inflicted by a predator calls for an antibiotic to prevent spread of infection. Certainly for a cat-caught pigeon we would give Synulox (aka Noroclav) at two tablets a day for at least seven days.
> 
> Woodpigeons would feed on grains and seeds, certain nuts and berries and green leaf. It is difficult to provide all of this in captivity, but our woodies and those who come to the garden feeder will all eat mixed corn (grain and maize), small raw peanuts in moderation, and seed mix which we get for our rescue pigeons (grass and various 'weed' seeds, hemp seed, sunflower hearts, safflower among other things). Our woodies enjoy crisp lettuce, too. Another thing they seem to relish is chopped up leaf of spinach, wild rocket and watercress - probably similar to the greens they would eat in the wild.
> 
> If this one needs help with feeding, then you can certainly give him thawed out frozen peas and sweetcorn if you can hand feed him.


Thanks John I appreciate all the info, I will try to supplement his diet with some of the things you suggest.. 

As for the antibiotics I'm not sure what to do about that really.. I would feel happier him having them, but I'm not sure where to get them from.


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## morphix

*Loft or Balcony Window?*

It just occurred to me that another place for the pigeon might be behind the curtains in the living room. I live in a flat with big windows down to the floor so he would get plenty of warm and sunlight there and be able to see the sky and birds.. the only problem is I work from home and spend most of my time in the living room, so he might get stressed more by the noises and my presence near him.

What do you guys think? Loft or behind living room curtains?


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## morphix

Dobato said:


> Did the vet send you home with some antibiotics to continue treatment at home? If yes, what kind and at what dose?
> 
> Karyn


No antibiotics  She said he didn't need them.


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## pdpbison

Hi Morphix,


A Cat bite upon the Wing or Wrist should require that the Bird be kept in a smallish yet comfortable Cage for a while ( a week or ten days anyway ) so he does not attempt to Fly, where-in he could well injure himself worse, for stressing a healing injury pre-maturely.

I always keep such Birds in a smallish Cage for some while, to prevent them stressing the injured Wing while it is healing.

The systemic infections which Birds can get from having been caught by a Cat or Dog or hit by a Raptor...tend to show no symptoms for about three days, then, one sees a sudden wilting, and, after some hours, a languid and wilted death.

By the time one sees the wilting, it is usually to late to have any benifit from the Antibiotics, hence, the intelligent regimen of employing appropriate Antibiotice as soon as possible, when careing for a Bird who has escaped or survived a predation event of any kind.

The Vet is an imbescile, or a skinflint, or both, as is so often the case in these matters.


For the price of a Coca Cola, as for what the Vet pays for the Meds, they could have provided you with a week's Worth of appropriate Antibiotics for this Bird, and, if they had any real care or interest or experience, or quality of judgement, they would have.


As it is - Some Birds can and do survive predation events without meds, in the Wild, on their own, and their own immune system manages to fend off and or eliminate the systemic infection...and, others do not so manage on their own, to do so.

So, it is a sort of gamble, and, not one which I myself would take.

I would say, see about obtaining appropriate Antibiotics for this Bird, and, do so as soon as possible!


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Hi Morphix,
> 
> 
> A Cat bite upon the Wing or Wrist should require that the Bird be kept in a smallish yet comfortable Cage for a while ( a week or ten days anyway ) so he does not attempt to Fly, where-in he could well injure himself worse, for stressing a healing injury pre-maturely.
> 
> I always keep such Birds in a smallish Cage for some while, to prevent them stressing the injured Wing while it is healing.
> 
> The systemic infections which Birds can get from having been caught by a Cat or Dog or hit by a Raptor...tend to show no symptoms for about three days, then, one sees a sudden wilting, and, after some hours, a languid and wilted death.
> 
> By the time one sees the wilting, it is usually to late to have any benifit from the Antibiotics, hence, the intelligent regimen of employing appropriate Antibiotice as soon as possible, when careing for a Bird who has escaped or survived a predation event of any kind.
> 
> The Vet is an imbescile, or a skinflint, or both, as is so often the case in these matters.
> 
> 
> For the price of a Coca Cola, as for what the Vet pays for the Meds, they could have provided you with a week's Worth of appropriate Antibiotics for this Bird, and, if they had any real care or interest or experience, or quality of judgement, they would have.
> 
> 
> As it is - Some Birds can and do survive predation events without meds, in the Wild, on their own, and their own immune system manages to fend off and or eliminate the systemic infection...and, others do not so manage on their own, to do so.
> 
> So, it is a sort of gamble, and, not one which I myself would take.
> 
> I would say, see about obtaining appropriate Antibiotics for this Bird, and, do so as soon as possible!
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Thanks Phil, I will see what I can do and hopefully will be able to get some antibiotics this evening or first thing tomorrow.

I note what you say about smaller enclosure being better so I will keep using similar sized boxes and covering partially. 

Do you think the loft set-up I mentioned is more suitable than the living room window, with the constant exposure to noise even though there would be plenty of natural daylight compared to artificial light of the loft?


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## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Do some 'googles' and find out what Wood Pigeons actually eat.
> 
> 
> Then do your best then, to provide such of that as you can, and or to augment it sensibly with alternatives which are nutritionally similar.
> 
> There are no conditions in which a 'opne Seed' diet will be good for any Granivorous or Omnivorous Bird.
> 
> Obtain some good topical Antibiotic Oinment or Salve, and apply it to the injured areas inside and out, on the Wings. This will help keep things soft, and, prevent further injury in flexing and allow more comfort. Do not let the injuries dry and and harden as they are starting to do now.
> 
> Allow this Bird no less than three weeks for recovery and then find a way to evaluate how well they are able to Fly, to gain altitude swiftly, fly straight 'up', and so on, possibly by appealing to someone who has a large Aviary or other condition where this may be tested, and, the Bird released if all is well, or, gathered up if not up to parr.
> 
> No way would this Bird be ready for release in three days.
> 
> Ideally, one would wait a Month or even two, to see how the injury has resolved, and or whether the Joints are becoming 'frozen' or have lost or are loosing or gaining flexibility and correct function.
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas



I have just discovered in my medicine cabinet a tube of topical antibiotic ointment cream (brand name Okamycin) containing the antibiotic Erythromycin 3%w/w and Zinc Sulphate 2.5%w/w. This is obviously intended for treating humans skin infections, but i'm wondering if it might be suitable for the pigeons wounds...might be better than nothing?

I just a bit of research on Google and it seems Erythromycin is a wide-spectrum antibiotic similar to Penicillin and is commonly used with animals..topical treatment is used for pets such as cats and dogs, and a powdered form is available for birds under the name Ornacyn.

I also found this:

*"Superficial Lacerations (Cuts) — Superficial cuts are usually caused by sharp objects or from bites and scratches. Superficial means that the skin is not completely cut through. There is no exposed muscle or fat tissue. Unless they are longer than 1 – 2 inches, superficial lacerations usually do not need to be sutured close. Cleaning and flushing the cut with sterile saline and then applying a good topical antibiotic such as Triple Antibiotic Ointment until the area has healed will usually take care of a small superficial laceration." Source: http://www.acatdog.com/dogcatwoundcare.aspx*

Maybe this type of treatment would be ok for the pigeon but I thought I should double check before going ahead.


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## morphix

*UPDATE & PigeonCam*

The pigeon seems much more settled in the loft so I think I will leave him where he is, he's eating from the seed bowl now regularly. I setup a little wireless camera up there so I can keep an eye on him from my computer.

Here's a couple of shots..



















He's starting removing some of the broken and hanging small feathers from around his wounds..and generally is preening himself under the wings..all the feathers he's pulled off he placed in a corner of the box and he keeps picking them up and pecking at them..don't know if he's trying to eat them!?
He has also been lifting his wings up and down a few times and resting with his eyelids closing.. 

There's a little sparrow nest in the eaves of my loft so you can hear them all chirping away and lots of other sounds of birds outside other including wood pigeons...he seems quite stimulated by the sounds of others birds and looks around.


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## Feefo

The antibiotic that you need is any that has an amoxcycillin/clavunate combination. These are: Synulox (expensive) at c50p per tablet, Noroclav, Clavaseptrim. Try to get 50 mg capsules. Dose is 1/4 tablet per 100 gms of pigeon twice a day for at least 7 days.

I don't know if you read my *wood pigeon page*, I have tried to record all relevant information there, temperament is an important paragraph to read.

Check the inside of his mouth just in case he has canker...they are particularly susceptible to that.

The camera is an excellent idea, you can watch without disturbing him. I am going to have to try that!

Cynthia


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## morphix

Feefo said:


> The antibiotic that you need is any that has an amoxcycillin/clavunate combination. These are: Synulox (expensive) at c50p per tablet, Noroclav, Clavaseptrim. Try to get 50 mg capsules. Dose is 1/4 tablet per 100 gms of pigeon twice a day for at least 7 days.
> 
> I don't know if you read my *wood pigeon page*, I have tried to record all relevant information there, temperament is an important paragraph to read.
> 
> Check the inside of his mouth just in case he has canker...they are particularly susceptible to that.
> 
> The camera is an excellent idea, you can watch without disturbing him. I am going to have to try that!
> 
> Cynthia


Thanks Cynthia, I did read that page earlier and found it very helpful info it's great the amount of work and dedication you have put into the website.

The vet checked inside the woodies mouth and she noticed he had seeds in his crop so I guess she has already checked for canker. 

I'm not sure what to do about getting antibiotics, its now approaching 48 hours since I rescued him.. I'd feel cheeky going back to the vet and asking for antibiotics, its like going against her advice especially when she saw us for free :-/ I wish my mother had pressed the point, but I guess she didn't like to with the vet being the expert etc.

Without wanting to appear cheeky, if yourself Cynthia or anyone else has any antibiotics they can spare and are able to post today, I can private message my address and PayPal some money or post a cheque if you prefer..


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## Feefo

You are not being cheeky, I would normally offer but I have just run out!

Can you ring the wildlife sanctuaries near you and see if they have any? They understand the importance of antibiotics if a cat or dog is suspected of causing the injuries. However, death from pasteurella septicemia usually takes place within 24 hours...that why they used to think that the birds were dying from shock rather than infection.

Cynthia


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## morphix

Feefo said:


> You are not being cheeky, I would normally offer but I have just run out!
> 
> Can you ring the wildlife sanctuaries near you and see if they have any? They understand the importance of antibiotics if a cat or dog is suspected of causing the injuries. However, death from pasteurella septicemia usually takes place within 24 hours...that why they used to think that the birds were dying from shock rather than infection.
> 
> Cynthia


I will try and ring a couple local to me and see.


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## Dobato

Paul, this bird will need antibiotics like RIGHT NOW, predator attacked birds can get a systemic infection from a bacteria called Pasteurella Multocida. The bacteria is carried in the mouths and claws/talons of predators and it just takes a scratch or a small puncture to infect the attacked bird. The attacked bird, if it gets away, can look like it has just minor wounds, like yous, but go on to suddenly decline a few days later from the systemic infection. The thing is late treatment with antibiotic will not save its life meaning, if you start to see a decline starting treatment then will be too late as the antibiotic will not be able to clear the infection. You need Synulox, Amoxicillin, Cephalexin or Baytril ASAP, the window is 48 hours to start treatment. You can use a bit of the ointment for topically as an antiseptic to prevent a local infection, but you need oral antibiotics, plus Erythromycin is not a drug of choice for Pasteurella, most strains are not sensitive to it (will not work on Pasteurella).

Karyn


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## morphix

Dobato said:


> Paul, this bird will need antibiotics like RIGHT NOW, predator attacked birds can get a systemic infection from a bacteria called Pasteurella Multocida. The bacteria is carried in the mouths and claws/talons of predators and it just takes a scratch or a small puncture to infect the attacked bird. The attacked bird, if it gets away, can look like it has just minor wounds, like yous, but go on to suddenly decline a few days later from the systemic infection. The thing is late treatment with antibiotic will not save its life meaning, if you start to see a decline starting treatment then will be too late as the antibiotic will not be able to clear the infection. You need Synulox, Amoxicillin, Cephalexin or Baytril ASAP, the window is 48 hours to start treatment. You can use a bit of the ointment for topically as an antiseptic to prevent a local infection, but you need oral antibiotics, plus Erythromycin is not a drug of choice for Pasteurella, most strains are not sensitive to it (will not work on Pasteurella).
> 
> Karyn


I hear what you're saying Karyn and wish the vet had just prescribed them, I just don't understand why they didn't its not like it would cost a lot and we offered to pay. I've raised the issue of visiting the vet again, or another one, with my mother, and to be honest she doesn't seem very keen.

I have contacted two reasonably close sanctuaries and one flatly refused to give any, and the other one has some and offered to take the pigeon for treatment, but the woman in charge is out at the moment and will get back to me. Unless she agrees to post them today, I doubt i can persuade my mother to drive over there with the pigeon, not to mention the stress on the him, its quite a long trip along some terrible bumpy country lane roads. Might do more harm than good eh.

It looks like we might have to just go with the vets decision on this one and keep our fingers crossed for the little fella. At least he has a much better chance than if he was left to fend for himself in the wild, even if no predators could get to him. He is getting the best possible care, plenty of good food and rest, plus I'm treating his wounds every day. 

He's in the lap of the gods now and nature might just have to take its course. We're at the 48 hour mark now and he's looking really strong and well, moving around, eating loads and preening himself regularly. I will watch him closely on the camera for the next 24 hours and if he should take a turn for the worse I will get him back to the vet quickly and hopefully in time for antibiotics. I certainly won't let him suffer if he gets very ill, so don't worry.

That's all I can do really now at this stage.

UPDATE: Been in contact with the vet again and explained concerns about no antibiotics and she said, she doesn't think the wounds were inflicted by a cat or predator attack..she thinks they are just scrapes from a collision/fall and that it will heal ok by itself with just salt water bathing.


----------



## Dobato

Do you, your family or friends have any antibiotics around for themselves, their children or even their pets, as a good many antibiotics would do the job, ask around, ask them to ask their friends.

EDIT: The key word is think, she is not sure, a course of antibiotics is safe and prudent insurance for this little one's health.

Karyn


----------



## morphix

Dobato said:


> Do you, your family or friends have any antibiotics around for themselves, their children or even their pets, as a good many antibiotics would do the job, ask around, ask them to ask their friends.
> 
> Karyn


Ok good idea I will ask around. I know a place that actually sells them cheap online I could of bought some had I known, but they take about a week to get here. I will certainly get some to keep in future just incase I spot any more injuries on that bus lane which are getting more frequent..damn bus drivers, I wish they would take more care. I've seen two squashed pigeons on the road in the last month.


----------



## Dobato

morphix said:


> Ok good idea I will ask around. I know a place that actually sells them cheap online I could of bought some had I known, but they take about a week to get here.


Yes, please do try this route, for many antibiotics you will only need one pill and for some perhaps two. I will help you with how to mix and dose, you will also need a 1cc syringe the kind without an attached needle, but this needs done ASAP.

Karyn


----------



## morphix

*Few questions..*

I'm going out later to do some shopping and wanted any suggestions on what I could get for the pigeon..Phil made some good suggestions earlier which I will try to get.

Is "popping corn" (dried corn in a bag) any good or would just regular frozen sweetcorn be better? 

I've seen peas mentioned..just regular frozen garden peas ok?

Finally, I thought it might be an idea to get some dried grass for the bottom of his box, more natural than toilet paper. Or perhaps that is not a good idea due to risk of infection while his wounds still healing..

I'm not feeling too clever myself this afternoon, had a bad stomach and the runs earlier..hope its nothing to do with the pigeon..I've been extra careful tho and worn disposable gloves to handle him and washed hands carefully.


----------



## Dobato

I will get Cynthia (Feefo) to better advise on proper food for a Woodie, but for now I think you would be better with regular frozen gardens peas, than the corn, thawed and warmed and "pop" about 15-20 at a time, wait until you can't feel them in the crop and feed again. No grass, just use terry cloth toweling for the cage bottom, you can place a brick in with a paper towel under it, for this little one to perch on, to make clean up quicker.

Karyn


----------



## Libis

morphix said:


> I'm not feeling too clever myself this afternoon, had a bad stomach and the runs earlier..hope its nothing to do with the pigeon..I've been extra careful tho and worn disposable gloves to handle him and washed hands carefully.


It's pretty unlikely that he would give you any diseases, actually. Don't worry. So long as you wash your hands before and after, I don't see how he could give you anything. Outside a vet's office, I've never known anyone to need to handle birds with rubber gloves on anyway. (Unless there is an extreme allergy present--but then I would think you'd already know because you would have had a reaction.)


----------



## morphix

Libis said:


> It's pretty unlikely that he would give you any diseases, actually. Don't worry. So long as you wash your hands before and after, I don't see how he could give you anything. Outside a vet's office, I've never known anyone to need to handle birds with rubber gloves on anyway. (Unless there is an extreme allergy present--but then I would think you'd already know because you would have had a reaction.)


Think you're right, I suspect it was a dodgy milk-shake I had earlier..powder might of been past its use-by.


----------



## Libis

morphix said:


> Think you're right, I suspect it was a dodgy milk-shake I had earlier..powder might of been past its use-by.


That sounds like something I would do. The sweets seem so worth it until later.


----------



## morphix

Just been into the loft to check on woodie wanted to be sure he has enough water and food to last through the night as it's quite warm up there..in fact a bit too stuffy perhaps. I'm thinking of putting a fan on low over other side might cool things down a bit. Will see how warm the weather is tomorrow.

Anyway woodie is doing fine, looks alert but nice and chilled, just resting. I avoided getting too close and looking him in the eyes to avoid unsettling him..just glanced over briefly. He's removed quite a lot of feathers, all part of the healing process I guess to make new way for new ones.. He's eaten well today nearly finished his 159g sweetcorn and the seed and grain mix is down by maybe nearly half way on a 230g bowl. Nothing wrong with his appetite is there!


----------



## Feefo

I am glad he is eating well, hand feeding them can be stressful. The food that you are giving them sounds fine to me.


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> I am glad he is eating well, hand feeding them can be stressful. The food that you are giving them sounds fine to me.


Thanks Cynthia, I wouldn't want to stress him and he seems to be coping ok on his own for eating so I will leave him to it. 

I was just reading about wood pigeons diet and was surprised to see they are primarily vegetarian and they like green vegetables like cabbage, spinach, broccoli and kale..and also sprouting plants and shoots, they must be super-healthy eating all that! 

I'm going to buy some mung beans for sprouting, baby spinach leaf and rocket just to supplement the sweetcorn and grains with some greens for him.. I also have some peas and rolled oats, I guess varying his diet and including some each food will ensure he gets the best nutrition to help him recover, plus it will give him some variety and extra stimulus.


----------



## morphix

*UPDATE End of Day 3*

Well the transfer to the loft went ok and woodie settled in very quickly to his new surroundings and seems much more relaxed up there.. probably less noise and movements has put him at ease.

He spent most of the day in the uncovered half of the box, and started grooming himself and preening all over but especially around the wounds which he kept returning to throughout the day...I thought he might be obsessing over it a bit and might make it worse, but I guess he knows what he's doing.

By evening (7-8.30pm) he started becoming very active indeed..his head moving constantly and he was looking very restless, opening and closing his wings constantly, turning around etc. I thought at one point he was going to try and fly out of the box! That would of been a nightmare. I did wonder if the box is too cramped for him and he might need more space. heaven knows how he will spend weeks in that box if he needs more time to grow his feathers back. This is when an aviary cage really is a benefit I guess, and he would be able to exercise a bit.. maybe I should take him to a sanctuary when he is well enough. 

As it got dark he quickly settled down and retreated under the covered half of the box out of the light..he looks like hes sleeping or resting. He is keeping in the same position very still..just his head moving slightly occasionally. Its almost like he has a body clock like us humans and wants to bed down for the night!

Tomorrow he is in for a treat with all these new foods. I will try and get him something to perch on and find a slightly bigger box too.


----------



## Feefo

It's surprising how many people believe that pigeons eat worms!

When you buy the mung beans add a few of the dried ones to his seed mix, they like those. They also like safflower seeds, sunflower seeds and peanuts.


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> It's surprising how many people believe that pigeons eat worms!
> 
> When you buy the mung beans add a few of the dried ones to his seed mix, they like those. They also like safflower seeds, sunflower seeds and peanuts.


Ooo thanks for the tips. I will get some sunflower seeds and peanuts too they're only cheap. I'm doing my shopping online for delivery tomorrow


----------



## pdpbison

morphix said:


> I have just discovered in my medicine cabinet a tube of topical antibiotic ointment cream (brand name Okamycin) containing the antibiotic Erythromycin 3%w/w and Zinc Sulphate 2.5%w/w. This is obviously intended for treating humans skin infections, but i'm wondering if it might be suitable for the pigeons wounds...might be better than nothing?
> 
> I just a bit of research on Google and it seems Erythromycin is a wide-spectrum antibiotic similar to Penicillin and is commonly used with animals..topical treatment is used for pets such as cats and dogs, and a powdered form is available for birds under the name Ornacyn.
> 
> I also found this:
> 
> *"Superficial Lacerations (Cuts) — Superficial cuts are usually caused by sharp objects or from bites and scratches. Superficial means that the skin is not completely cut through. There is no exposed muscle or fat tissue. Unless they are longer than 1 – 2 inches, superficial lacerations usually do not need to be sutured close. Cleaning and flushing the cut with sterile saline and then applying a good topical antibiotic such as Triple Antibiotic Ointment until the area has healed will usually take care of a small superficial laceration." Source: http://www.acatdog.com/dogcatwoundcare.aspx*
> 
> Maybe this type of treatment would be ok for the pigeon but I thought I should double check before going ahead.



Any decent regular over-the-counter human-use type Topical Antibiotic Ointment or Savle would be fine for the surface of the actual Wing injury itself.

The Bird as a whole will still require a systemic Antibiotic, like Cipro/Baytril/Enroflaxyn...or, Clavamox...


----------



## pdpbison

morphix said:


> Thanks Phil, I will see what I can do and hopefully will be able to get some antibiotics this evening or first thing tomorrow.
> 
> I note what you say about smaller enclosure being better so I will keep using similar sized boxes and covering partially.
> 
> Do you think the loft set-up I mentioned is more suitable than the living room window, with the constant exposure to noise even though there would be plenty of natural daylight compared to artificial light of the loft?



Smaller Cage should be set up so the Bird is no less than own own elbow for height.

As for where to have it set up - just elect a place where they are safe, as little commotion or people as possible, and, where they can feel comfortable about it.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi morphix,


You are now passing the end of the 'window' for the Antibiotics - were you to have obtained them - to be able to work.

You had about 48 hours originally, and, there is definitely not much left now.


Please go BACK to the supposed 'Vet' who did the useless nothing of an exam and the useless nothing of an evaluation, and, demand the appropriate Medicines from them - they will have those Meds on hand.


As for 'Canker', the Vet is not qualified or experienced enough to say if this Bird has it or not, nor is a fast look in to the Mouth going to be conclusive, since they can have Canker in their system without any signs in the Mouth.

Generally they know close to nothing about it, other than to look in the Mouth.


So - in review - 


You are p[ossibly out of time now, or, at best, you are almost out of time for the Meds to help.

I outlined this for you on page 1, and Karyn has re-iterated this on the 2nd page.


I do not know why this failed to make an impression.

Since you already met this Vet, and, they have seen the Bird, please do another visit NOW and get the Meds which should have been provided the first time.


Post images every other day or so, of the Bird's freshest poops.

I had asked you in the beginning for good close up daily images of the fresh poops, because Birds in this one's condition can either have Canker prior TO being in a predation event, or, can come down with it in the days following.

As well as that they can have or come down with other illnesses or stress-related illnesses/syndromes also, while being cared for after a predation escape event.

The pupose OF the 'Small Cage" or in your case, "Box", if to implicitly restrain the injured Wing Bird from flapping or other exuberence, expecially if startled, where they could make the injury worse by flexing it - especially in situations such as this, where no ointment or salve has been used to keep the surface of the injury soft, and, there is inflammation/swelling, which, if the Bird DOES try and flap, could cause additional damage and even a bad outcome for what otherwise could have been a good outcome of the injury/Wing.

It is either that, or stabalize the Wing and have it taped to their Body.




Best wishes!

Phil
Lv


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Hi morphix,
> 
> 
> You are now passing the end of the 'window' for the Antibiotics - were you to have obtained them - to be able to work.
> 
> You had about 48 hours originally, and, there is definitely not much left now.
> 
> 
> Please go BACK to the supposed 'Vet' who did the useless nothing of an exam and the useless nothing of an evaluation, and, demand the appropriate Medicines from them - they will have those Meds on hand.
> 
> 
> As for 'Canker', the Vet is not qualified or experienced enough to say if this Bird has it or not, nor is a fast look in to the Mouth going to be conclusive, since they can have Canker in their system without any signs in the Mouth.
> 
> Generally they know close to nothing about it, other than to look in the Mouth.
> 
> 
> So - in review -
> 
> 
> You are p[ossibly out of time now, or, at best, you are almost out of time for the Meds to help.
> 
> I outlined this for you on page 1, and Karyn has re-iterated this on the 2nd page.
> 
> 
> I do not know why this failed to make an impression.
> 
> Since you already met this Vet, and, they have seen the Bird, please do another visit NOW and get the Meds which should have been provided the first time.
> 
> 
> Post images every other day or so, of the Bird's freshest poops.
> 
> I had asked you in the beginning for good close up daily images of the fresh poops, because Birds in this one's condition can either have Canker prior TO being in a predation event, or, can come down with it in the days following.
> 
> As well as that they can have or come down with other illnesses or stress-related illnesses/syndromes also, while being cared for after a predation escape event.
> 
> The pupose OF the 'Small Cage" or in your case, "Box", if to implicitly restrain the injured Wing Bird from flapping or other exuberence, expecially if startled, where they could make the injury worse by flexing it - especially in situations such as this, where no ointment or salve has been used to keep the surface of the injury soft, and, there is inflammation/swelling, which, if the Bird DOES try and flap, could cause additional damage and even a bad outcome for what otherwise could have been a good outcome of the injury/Wing.
> 
> It is either that, or stabalize the Wing and have it taped to their Body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Hi Phil, I know you have the pigeons best interests at heart, and forgive me for saying so, but your message is coming across as slightly aggressive and condescending. I have done everything within my power to help the pigeon and probably considerably more than most people would of done who probably would have just left it to fend for itself and face certain death on the road. But please understand I'm only an ordinary member of the public trying to do what I can, I'm not a bird rescuer or bird enthusiast. 

We have already spoken to the vet again and stressed the point over antibiotics and possible infection from a cat bite, and in her professional opinion the injuries are not from a cat bite, and are scrapes and abrasion injuries. Having being able to examine the bird more closely today now some of the feathers have been removed from the wound (by the pigeon itself) I would tend to agree with the vet. I'm not going to start causing a fuss down the vets and calling her years of experience into question by demanding she give antibiotics when she was kind enough in the first place to see us and examine the pigeon. Free of charge and without any notice. She clearly is a very experienced vet and told us she sees many injured pigeons which are brought in by the public. Many vets just put them to sleep but she was kind enough to trust us to look after it and told us I am doing the right thing. 

Despite what the vet said, and on the advice of people here, I did try to make a number of attempts to get antibiotics as you saw from my messages. But with only a matter of a few hours to do this I was unable to get any at such short notice. Please bear in mind, I do not drive myself, and I also have a disability and work full-time as well as studying for an OU degree. My mother is in full-time work too and can't just get time off to ferry a pigeon around places. The 48 hours has now passed and we're at 57 hours since I rescued the pigeon. I am however applying the topical antibiotic cream to the wounds, as from today and continuing to bath daily with saline water, as the vet originally advised.

I'm not going to attempt to examine the bird for canker as 1) I'm not confident or experienced enough to handle the bird to do that 2) attempting it is likely to put additional unnecessary stress on the bird. It's a wild bird and yes, it may have some disease or illness that caused it to end up the way it has..but personally I don't think that is the case, and more importantly, neither does the vet. To me it looks perfectly healthy and remarkably strong and resilient considering what it must of been through. It's eating well, grooming regularly, breathing normally and fully alert. I'm monitoring it very closely on a live camera.

I did post a photo of the pigeons droppings on the morning after the rescue which were from overnight (see above posting). I have today transferred the pigeon to a cleaner and larger box this morning and will take another photo of the droppings from yesterday shortly.


----------



## morphix

*Update Day 4*

Ok just a quick update as I really should be focused on my university course assessment paper which absolutely must be in by today..

I got up early to check on the pigeon about 6am, and he was perfectly fine. Fully awake and alert. 

As the box is getting quite damp and messy and to minimise the risk of infection I decided to transfer him to a new box. There were quite a few fresh droppings which is not surprising the amount he ate yesterday. They look perfectly fine to me and much like the ones posted already but I will take another photo and post it shortly.

While transferring him to a new box I decided to join two boxes together and make a little opening between the two boxes to give him a bit more room (not height-wise, just length-wise, so he can open his wings and groom easier and also move about a bit more.. I found some caging wire which I put over the top of the boxes to prevent him flying out.

He's been bathed with saline water and given some topical antibiotic cream. This proved quite difficult this time as he was much more alert and nervous than the last time I did it. Nevertheless I was able to give the wounds a good cleaning without overly stressing him and he soon calmed down again.

*Food intake yesterday (from weighing bowls):

3g of fresh sweet corn
73g of water - AT LAST, good to see him getting water!
Seed Mix - unknown (bowl tipped) probably a fair bit tho looking at it.*


I've given him fresh bird seed mix, clean water and fresh sweetcorn, peas, sugar snap peas and some clover shoots from my balcony. I washed and disinfected all his feeding bowls first. 

I also put into the box near the feeding area, a big lump of sandstone I had on my balcony..I thought it might serve as a little perch for him.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi morphix,


You had said this was a Cat bite.

If it is a contusion/abrasion, then, that is a very different matter.


Well, glad to hear it is not what we had been told, and, thus, is not the peril it had been portrayed to be.



Best wishes,



Phil
Lv


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Hi morphix,
> 
> 
> You had said this was a Cat bite.
> 
> If it is a contusion/abrasion, then, that is a very different matter.
> 
> 
> Well, glad to hear it is not what we had been told, and, thus, is not the peril it had seemed.
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Hi Phil,

Yes I initially just assumed it was a cat bite or hawk attack so that is what I posted... but after having a proper debriefing, as it were, with my mother about her visit to see the vet , she told me the vet said it didn't look like a cat or hawk attack, but more like the pigeon had an accident of some kind.. the place where I found him is a notorious bus route lane (no cars, just buses moving along every 10 minutes) and the pigeons are constantly flying out infront of buses.. I've seen myself a few pigeons fly into the side and back of buses and get stunned/lose a lot of feathers..as I ride along this bus route lane on my electric bicycle every day to deliver my business mail and packages to the postal sorting office in town..

So what probably happened is the pigeon got stunned by flying into a bus and then fell down onto the road.. I don't think it had been there very long when I found it because there were a lot of small soft feathers blowing along the bus lane where it was standing and the blood on it was fresh and bright red. I think I may have got there just in time, as there are plenty of houses with cats that flank the bus lane in that particular spot.

So fingers crossed I'm hoping that is all it is and the pigeon can pull through with just the topical cream.. I do totally hear what you're saying that about airing on the side of caution and if I could of given the pigeon oral AB I definitely would have. 

I'm going to order some online later to keep for future emergencies and will be happy to supply them to anyone who needs them, free of charge.

P.S. Sorry if my last message sounded like I was going off on one at you, just a bit highly emotionally strung at moment..and under pressure to get my exam paper finished


----------



## Feefo

> I've seen myself a few pigeons fly into the side and back of buses and get stunned/lose a lot of feathers.


I think wood pigeons are far more likely to be hit by traffic than feral pigeons are, they always seem to fly low, even then their take-off is above traffic they will dip. You would think that after 100 years or so they would have evolved an understanding that traffic is deadlier than hawks!

Cynthia


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> I think wood pigeons are far more likely to be hit by traffic than feral pigeons are, they always seem to fly low, even then their take-off is above traffic they will dip. You would think that after 100 years or so they would have evolved an understanding that traffic is deadlier than hawks!
> 
> Cynthia


Indeed. In the last few days I've been paying more attention to the woodies on my daily trek up that bus lane and I must say they do fly really low when crossing from trees on one side to the other side.. I saw several yesterday do it with nowhere enough height to clear a bus..it really does make me cringe. Some just walk about on the road around blind spot bends and its possible as you say, they can't get enough lift to escape a fast moving bus coming around the corner. I think there has been a huge increase in wood pigeon population around my town which is semi-rural with plenty of trees and nesting sites.. I read somewhere the population of woodies doubled between 2008 and 2009. I fear it won't be long before there is a national cull or something 

I'm going to write a letter to my local newspaper to raise the issue of the danger to pigeons and other wildlife on the bus lane and ask bus drivers to take a bit more care especially around the corners.. I've seen a few squashed pigeons and it's really sad thing to see, breaks my heart.


----------



## John_D

Hi Paul

It's my view that you have put yourself out considerably, as a 'non-birdie' person, to help this woodie which has a chance of life that it would not have had without your intervention. Many (most?) people would not have bothered with getting the bird to a vet in the first place, and I think you were very fortunate to find this vet. Definitely not worth alienating a source of potential future help.

I think we do all need to be aware that all pigeons are not alike when it comes to handling. Woodpigeons, being true wild birds, are much less amenable to examination than feral pigeons and can get pretty stressed more readily. For me, wrapping a towel round a woodie if I have to, for instance, hand feed or check in the mouth for canker is easier on me and the bird 

BTW, I doubt you'll have any luck trying to get antibacterials online (from UK sources, anyway) as animal antibiotics of the kind we would use on pigeons are available on prescription only.


----------



## morphix

John_D said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> It's my view that you have put yourself out considerably, as a 'non-birdie' person, to help this woodie which has a chance of life that it would not have had without your intervention. Many (most?) people would not have bothered with getting the bird to a vet in the first place, and I think you were very fortunate to find this vet. Definitely not worth alienating a source of potential future help.
> 
> I think we do all need to be aware that all pigeons are not alike when it comes to handling. Woodpigeons, being true wild birds, are much less amenable to examination than feral pigeons and can get pretty stressed more readily. For me, wrapping a towel round a woodie if I have to, for instance, hand feed or check in the mouth for canker is easier on me and the bird
> 
> BTW, I doubt you'll have any luck trying to get antibacterials online (from UK sources, anyway) as animal antibiotics of the kind we would use on pigeons are available on prescription only.


Thanks John, I appreciate your kind words..and what you say about the vet makes total sense. 

There is an farm animal sanctuary (appropriately named "The Farm Animal Sanctuary" at Tardigge near Bromsgrove) which is about 6 miles from where I am that did offer to take the pigeon. They work with a sympathetic vet based at a wildlife centre which is much further away (The Vale Wildlife Centre) who is known to take pigeons, even if they can't fly and they never put them to sleep. The Farm Sanctuary are not experts in rescuing and caring for wildlife, but they can provide antibiotics and basic care and see that the pigeon goes to the vet if it needs treatment. Maybe Cynthia can add them to her network list? These people are absolute angels and need the support of the public as the running costs of these places is unbelievable and they rely entirely on donations.

I had to make quick decision on whether to go to the sanctuary or to the closer vet in town, and decided the vet might be better and less stressful for the pigeon. 

Great tip about using a towel, it's something I hadn't considered and might make treating the wounds a bit easier and less stressful on the pigeon I will try it tomorrow.

Re the antibiotics...I know a reliable off-shore pharmacy I have used in past that will dispenses a wide range of prescription medicines without prescription to the UK (which is completely legal in the UK for personal use up to 3 months supply)..they do have some antibiotics (for humans though obviously)..not sure if these will be suitable for pigeons but I will look into it more and post back what they have tomorrow so perhaps yourself/others can advise..


----------



## pdpbison

With very rare exception, the Medicines are all the same regardless of species of Animal.

Some Species may tend to receive one version of a Medicine which has several versions, but all of the versions of all of the Medicines pretty well work about the same on any Species of Animal, human included.

Different Species may or generally do, receive differing ratios of mG/k ( Milligrammes per Kilo ).

The reason for asking to be able to see daily or every other day poop images, is to gauge aspects of the Bird's system and health while in the care of the person, for the injury or illness which occasioned the person to be caring for the Bird to begin with.

People writing in often ignore this or become testy if reminded, insisting that one image on day one, is supposed to somehow be the same thing I had asked for...or merely making some terse reply of how to them, the poops look 'normal' ( so why am I bothering to annoy them by asking for successive images? ) Only, of course, the person has no idea what 'normal' would be, nor do they differentiate details or aspects of what to them, is 'normal', so, kind of an impasse there sometimes.


Vets are not care givers, and, they typically have no experience with nor informed anticipations of, the realities which follow their brief evaluations in passing, of a presentation.

Few Vets have ever managed a recovery of any sort to have lerned anything about what follows the presentation's cursory pronouncements.

Vets do not usually get return visits of dead ex patients being carried in.

Probably, they should.

Many people on the forum wish to insist that the term 'Canker' can only apply to inflamitory debris artefacts seen in the mouth.

If I use instead, the more correct term, or Trichimoniasis, then they start insisting I say 'Canker' instead...saying it is the same thing.

Whichever we may elect to call it, it can and does potentially infect the Bird in any of many areas of their system, few of which would be visible, and, while a Vet or anyone else can say that they have checked the mouth, this is only one of many possible places the illness can manifest, and, a Mouth-check is not a basis upon which one can positively say that the Bird does not have it. 

Nor is a cursory Mouth-check a basis upon which to assert, that the Bird shall not begin showing signs of it, in the immediate days to come, especially whan the Bird IS stressed for abiding and countinancing not only his or her recent injury, removal from accustomed surrounds, removal from Mate or Family, and, presence of whatever may be of the then strange and unsettling surrounds and conditions and creatures and constraints, which are present as the ambiance in which they find themselves.

Many Birds written in about on this forum, while having enjoyed some perfunctory pronouncment from a Vet, soon die or end up having very serious troubles, which tyically are beyond the acumen of the Vet to rectify or diagnose when successive appeals are made, which troubles arise from the secondary or already present illnesses or injuries the Vet did not detect or anticipate as possible conditions or probable eventuations of the presentation they did see.



Anyway...a wrist injury from a flying mis-hap, is no less potentially threatening to the Bird's flying future, than a Cat Bite would be, though of course an abrasion or contusion injury is not likely to have become an entry point for Bacteria that can reliably occasion a fatal systemic infection, as a Bite from a Cat would be expected to do.


Time will tell...and, meanwhile, it is best if the Wing and Wrist may rest.


Best wishes,


Phil
L v


----------



## morphix

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the info on the antibiotics, and I can totally understand the need to see regular daily pictures of the droppings.. I don't have a problem providing the pictures, all I was making about a point about is that I have provided what I have so far and will keep on providing them, but due to time commitments they might be regular/same time each day, although I will try after today. I'm no expert, so when I say they look normal I'm merely giving my opinion based on the many wood pigeon droppings I see (and clear up) every day on my feeder tables on balcony. The droppings from the woodie in care look much the same to me in terms of colour and consistency so far.

Here are the latest pictures anyway from yesterdays droppings:


----------



## morphix

*Bit worried..*

Ok I'm a bit worried about woodie, he has hardly moved all day in his new box and hasn't touched his food or water all day as far as I can see...he is staying under the covered area of the box and is just motionless. His eyes are open, pupils are big and he looks fairly alert and normal. Feathers are not puffed up or anything. No fresh droppings as far as I can see.. 

I think changing the box and/or cleaning his wounds (which proved difficult with him trying to get away) may have been a bit of a shock for him.. I'm hoping that's all it is and he just needs to settle down. I was in the loft quite a bit this morning though setting up his new box and also started work on a temporary aviary enclosure using some bits and pieces I had leftover from a mini-garden green-house. I did try to keep out of his sight, minimise any noise and kept his box nearly covered over to minimise any stress.

Maybe it was all a bit too much for him and he's gone into shock or is just frightened. I have covered over his box for a bit to see if that helps...it's a nice sunny day and plenty warm up there in the loft for him so I don't think he needs any extra heating in his box.

I will continue to keep an eye on him and see how is tomorrow. I'm going to try and keep my distance more and keep contact to an absolute minimum..using a towel should help with the bathing... It's hard to remember sometimes you're dealing with a wild animal who is totally not familiar with close human contact and unusual surroundings, it must be terrifying for him..poor thing.


----------



## Dobato

Paul, I went and had another look at the photo you posted, in your very first post of this thread of the wing, it may be an accidental wound, but IMO it looks much more like an attack wound, as accident wounds most times happen along the leading edge of the wing, not where this wound is. Again, IMO, this bird should have had a short course of antibiotics to guard against a systemic infection, I am still puzzled as to why, for the sake of safety, this was not done, as Amoxicillin is dirt cheap, and one of the safest meds we can use on a bird. A good many times birds get attacked by hawks and other animals and survive without prophylactic treatment, but for the cost and trouble of administering the meds well worth it.

Karyn


----------



## morphix

Dobato said:


> Paul, I went and had another look at the photo you posted, in your very first post of this thread of the wing, it may be an accidental wound, but IMO it looks much more like an attack wound, as accident wounds most times happen along the leading edge of the wing, not where this wound is. Again, IMO, this bird should have had a short course of antibiotics to guard against a systemic infection, I am still puzzled as to why, for the sake of safety, this was not done, as Amoxicillin is dirt cheap, and one of the safest meds we can use on a bird. A good many times birds get attacked by hawks and other animals and survive without prophylactic treatment, but for the cost and trouble of administering the meds well worth it.
> 
> Karyn


I agree, you can't be certain either way really can you, and as you say for the small cost, if it can help increase the chances of the little pigeon then why not.. perhaps the vet is one of those who is worried about antibacterial resistance and only gives them once there's sign an infection is taking hold or there is a conclusive evidence of a predator attack..just a thought.

Nature can be cruel and some animals don't make it, I guess it's just a fact of life we have to accept. I'm keeping positive for the pigeon though and will do everything I can to ensure he has the best chance of survival.


----------



## John_D

I think Paul has covered the antibiotic issue, having told us that the vet did not consider this to be a predator injury _and_ that he subsequently contacted the vet again following from what was said here about medication. The problem we have in the UK is that we cannot just go to a vet and purchase whatever we want, since vets will only prescribe for the specific patient as they consider appropriate. We also do not have the option of purchasing antibiotics from pigeon supply stores, due to the requirement for a prescription. Recently, even Appertex for Cocci has been withdrawn as an over the counter item, which shows how strictly controlled meds are here. It's frustrating, but it's the way it is, unfortunately.


----------



## Feefo

Thanks for the information on the Farm Animal Sanctuary. I will add it to my list.

I like Vale Wildlife too, when we were trying to have 20 unwanted racing pigeons transported to Tewkesbury by courier they agreed to receive them and hold them until they could be collected by their new owners...but i the end we decided it would be better for John to drive them down.

I have been watching our two healthy woodies in the aviary, they tend to stay in one place during the day then come down for food and water late in the day when the ferals are heading for bed. Hopefully evening will prompt your woodie to eat and drink...But ours may be trying to avoid the attention of the ferals, specially the males who can't ignore any other pigeon, they have to pay them some sort of attention!

On the subject of vets, a friend of mine that does a lot of rescues has been unable to persuade her vet to prescribe antibiotics for a woodie when I consider it necessary...I think that the vet thinks of woodies as food that will end up on the table with resistant bacteria in them 

Cynthia


----------



## morphix

*Update: 18:30- 20:30*

I'm feeling more relaxed now and so is woodie by the looks of it! He is now starting to move around (seems to be more lively around evenings) and is perching on the lump of sandstone in his box and preening himself. What a difference a perch makes, he hasn't been off it in the last 2 hours

He is also frequently lifting and closing his wings again as he did yesterday. I don't know enough about rehabilitating birds but I'd say this behaviour is part of the healing process and natural instinct? Preening stimulates oil on his wings and helps with regrowth perhaps. Opening and closing his wings surely must help keep him in good shape a bit like exercising muscles?

I don't think he has drank or eaten much at all today but we'll know for sure tomorrow when I do the weighing. Perhaps his crop is full from yesterday?


----------



## morphix

*Few questions...*

OK first question: How long do you think I should continue the saline bathing and topical antibiotic treatment? Bearing in mind he's been bathed daily for the last 4 days. The antibiotic cream says to apply twice daily, but that is for a human. I think once a day is sufficient for woodie? 

Second question: Best way to bathe him?..John made the good suggestion of using a towel and I would like to try that but I'm worried him getting away from me if I lift him out of the box..if that happened in the loft it might be next to impossible to get him back if he goes off into the eaves. So any advice here would be appreciated. I really want to try and make it as quick and least stressful as I can for the little chap, and would certainly want to avoid a repeat of today where he was going a bit frantic to hide away. My technique at the moment is just to lean into the box slowly with a bit of wet toilet paper, and talk to him in a quiet voice. I don't try to hold him down or touch him.


----------



## John_D

A gentle mist spray is quite good, as it helps them to maintain their waterproofing.

Our pigeons (and woodies) like to wash their 'wingpits'


----------



## pdpbison

morphix said:


> OK first question: How long do you think I should continue the saline bathing and topical antibiotic treatment? Bearing in mind he's been bathed daily for the last 4 days. The antibiotic cream says to apply twice daily, but that is for a human. I think once a day is sufficient for woodie?



I deal with lots of flying mis-adventure and predator injuries/wounds.

Unless there are deep punctures I never wash anything repeatedly, but, if I wash anything at all it is only to clean off dried blood and dirt and whatever else so I can see and evaluate and identify the injury to decide how to treat it.

I may clean an injury or wound initially, and, inspect it to decide what it's provenance is ( Animal bite, Pellet Gun perforation, or flying mishap ), but, I would never keep washing it daily or at all, once it is initially clean enough to inspect and evaluate, unless it is a deep puncture which has to be debrided in successive procedures, and, sluiced from within repeatedly to clear out debris.

There is no reason to repeatedly wash a simple injury or wound, and, it upsets the Bird immensely to be fussed with in an effort to wash or bathe it or it's afflicted area of injury.


Washing also dessicates and is liable to cause scarring or poor healing and lots more discomfort...where the Ointments promote a mich better quality of resolution and comfort.


Leaving aside the use of systemic Medicines...and regarding for the moment only the topical address -
I simply apply a good Topical Ointment daily, or, every other day, and, usually I do this during Lap Towel time ( which is where we begin and do the initial exam and whatever else anyway), when I am 'pecking
with the Bird ( if this is safe to do, and, if not, then we do other things to make friends and put them at ease ), and, they feel secure, easy, social, and, I just sort of have the Bird pause for the application procedure, or we do that as they are pecking, since this manner of doing it is not stressful, and, the Bird really does not feel bothered by it.

Sometimes I have to lay the Bird on their Back or on their Back and extend the Wing or something to access the injured area, and, similarly, by then, 'pecking' together and so on, Lap Towel, gentleness, explaining things to them, they let me do it, even if it is odd or a little discomforting for them, and, then we go back to some sociable 'pecking' together, and positive-affirmation tones and gestures, so they know that the thing we just did was no big deal, and, was nothing to feel bothered about since there is an implicit context of positive and affirming continuity which can tolerate some odd ways of being handled briefly in order for necessary procedures to be done, and, done with the Bird's co-operation and even wllingness.

If no such context is present, the Bird may well be terrified and very upset about being fussed with for anything, let alone, someone trying to bathe or wash them.

Washing or Bathing generally accomplishes nothing after the first occasion for initial evaluation, and is virtually never tolerated well by the Bird compared to other 'fussing' or bother or procedure things.

I can debride deep Pellet gun wounds, and, sluice/irrigate them twice-a-day, with virtually no stress or protest from the Bird. In most cases I do not even have to restrain them since they get the drift pretty fast, that this REALLY feels a lot better when I do it, and, everything had been getting better, so, they figure these things out, and, it can all be so much easier if we work with this in this way.


While, no matter how nice, patient, affirming, soothing tones, and gentle I may be, I have never once had a Bird who would not vigorously resent and protest being bathed or washed...and or that the effort to impose this on them damages what trust or ease we may otherwise have come to enjoy, wrecking then the basis for their co-operations in other things or procedures.


I think Karyn has made a very good observation about the injury - it does not look like what a flying mishap would do, but, rather, shows the appearance one would associate with a Bite or predator damage.


Even though you saw the flying mis-adventure occur, or deduced it having just occurred, and, were on scene to gather this Bird up and so on, this still does not tell us that the Bird was not at that moment, freshly escaped from some sort of predation event, when clipped by the Bus.


So, at this point, I guess we shall see how things go as they are.




> Second question: Best way to bathe him?..John made the good suggestion of using a towel and I would like to try that but I'm worried him getting away from me if I lift him out of the box..if that happened in the loft it might be next to impossible to get him back if he goes off into the eaves. So any advice here would be appreciated. I really want to try and make it as quick and least stressful as I can for the little chap, and would certainly want to avoid a repeat of today where he was going a bit frantic to hide away. My technique at the moment is just to lean into the box slowly with a bit of wet toilet paper, and talk to him in a quiet voice. I don't try to hold him down or touch him.




Don't bathe him...it accomplishes nothing worth doing Medically or hygenically, and, the Antibiotic Ointment will do what needs to be done as far as all worthwhile topical concerns.


Do not permit him to be in any position to fly untill another couple weeks have passed, and, then, elect a condition where you can evaluate how well he does fly and reclaim him if need be.


Continue the topical Antibiotic Ointment for it to have been used for one week, and, we can see then if it is fine to discontinue or to continue a little longer.



I expect I will be chastised for appearing to neglect how everyone always says Woodies are never to be dealt with by using kindness, patience, trust, gentleness, or seeking their co-operation for necessary procedures, for fear of them becoming people-tolerant or complaiscent.


Oh well...

Lol...



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Quazar

pdpbison said:


> I deal with lots of flying mis-adventure and predator injuries/wounds.
> 
> Unless there are deep punctures I never wash anything repeatedly, but, if I wash anything at all it is only to clean off dried blood and dirt and whatever else so I can see and evaluate and identify the injury to decide how to treat it.
> 
> I may clean an injury or wound initially, and, inspect it to decide what it's provenance is ( Animal bite, Pellet Gun perforation, or flying mishap ), but, I would never keep washing it daily or at all, once it is initially clean enough to inspect and evaluate, unless it is a deep puncture which has to be debrided in successive procedures, and, sluiced from within repeatedly to clear out debris.
> 
> There is no reason to repeatedly wash a simple injury or wound, and, it upsets the Bird immensely to be fussed with in an effort to wash or bathe it or it's afflicted area of injury.
> 
> 
> Washing also dessicates and is liable to cause scarring or poor healing and lots more discomfort...where the Ointments promote a mich better quality of resolution and comfort.
> 
> 
> Leaving aside the use of systemic Medicines...and regarding for the moment only the topical address -
> I simply apply a good Topical Ointment daily, or, every other day, and, usually I do this during Lap Towel time ( which is where we begin and do the initial exam and whatever else anyway), when I am 'pecking
> with the Bird ( if this is safe to do, and, if not, then we do other things to make friends and put them at ease ), and, they feel secure, easy, social, and, I just sort of have the Bird pause for the application procedure, or we do that as they are pecking, since this manner of doing it is not stressful, and, the Bird really does not feel bothered by it.
> 
> Sometimes I have to lay the Bird on their Back or on their Back and extend the Wing or something to access the injured area, and, similarly, by then, 'pecking' together and so on, Lap Towel, gentleness, explaining things to them, they let me do it, even if it is odd or a little discomforting for them, and, then we go back to some sociable 'pecking' together, and positive-affirmation tones and gestures, so they know that the thing we just did was no big deal, and, was nothing to feel bothered about since there is an implicit context of positive and affirming continuity which can tolerate some odd ways of being handled briefly in order for necessary procedures to be done, and, done with the Bird's co-operation and even wllingness.
> 
> If no such context is present, the Bird may well be terrified and very upset about being fussed with for anything, let alone, someone trying to bathe or wash them.
> 
> Washing or Bathing generally accomplishes nothing after the first occasion for initial evaluation, and is virtually never tolerated well by the Bird compared to other 'fussing' or bother or procedure things.
> 
> I can debride deep Pellet gun wounds, and, sluice/irrigate them twice-a-day, with virtually no stress or protest from the Bird. In most cases I do not even have to restrain them since they get the drift pretty fast, that this REALLY feels a lot better when I do it, and, everything had been getting better, so, they figure these things out, and, it can all be so much easier if we work with this in this way.
> 
> 
> While, no matter how nice, patient, affirming, soothing tones, and gentle I may be, I have never once had a Bird who would not vigorously resent and protest being bathed or washed...and or that the effort to impose this on them damages what trust or ease we may otherwise have come to enjoy, wrecking then the basis for their co-operations in other things or procedures.
> 
> 
> I think Karyn has made a very good observation about the injury - it does not look like what a flying mishap would do, but, rather, shows the appearance one would associate with a Bite or predator damage.
> 
> 
> Even though you saw the flying mis-adventure occur, or deduced it having just occurred, and, were on scene to gather this Bird up and so on, this still does not tell us that the Bird was not at that moment, freshly escaped from some sort of predation event, when clipped by the Bus.
> 
> 
> So, at this point, I guess we shall see how things go as they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bathe him...it accomplishes nothing worth doing Medically or hygenically, and, the Antibiotic Ointment will do what needs to be done as far as all worthwhile topical concerns.
> 
> 
> Do not permit him to be in any position to fly untill another couple weeks have passed, and, then, elect a condition where you can evaluate how well he does fly and reclaim him if need be.
> 
> 
> Continue the topical Antibiotic Ointment for it to have been used for one week, and, we can see then if it is fine to discontinue or to continue a little longer.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect I will be chastised for appearing to neglect how everyone always says Woodies are never to be dealt with by using kindness, patience, trust, gentleness, or seeking their co-operation for necessary procedures, for fear of them becoming people-tolerant or complaiscent.
> 
> 
> Oh well...
> 
> Lol...
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


I agree with Phil about the continual washing & also about putting the bird at ease.....the only problem with putting it at ease is it is a WOODIE, and they are far more (to use other members sayings) "Skittish"
Although they appear more laid back and relaxed in the wild, They are more highly strung, more defensive & very easilly frightened and stressed when out of their usual enviroment.
Even when trying to be gentle & talk to them they cower away and tremble as they are generally not like your common feral that lives among humans and is used to humans being and moving around them.
I have seen re-habbed woodies that are "people tolerant", but only in so much as they tolerate people closer than one would normally get.
They still get stressed & fearful when humans get too close.


----------



## Feefo

You know your woodies Quazar! I have found that even making accidental eye contact with a woodie from outside the aviary will stress them.


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## John_D

pdpbison said:


> ....
> 
> I expect I will be chastised for appearing to neglect how everyone always says Woodies are never to be dealt with by using kindness, patience, trust, gentleness, or seeking their co-operation for necessary procedures, for fear of them becoming people-tolerant or complaiscent.
> 
> ....


Woodpigeons are wild birds, and rescued adult woodpigeons will rarely if ever get to become 'people-friendly'. However, if rescued as squabs they may, like any other pigeons, develop a degree of acceptance and lack of fear of humans and be at a disadvantage if or when released. Know your subject.


----------



## morphix

Quazar said:


> I agree with Phil about the continual washing & also about putting the bird at ease.....the only problem with putting it at ease is it is a WOODIE, and they are far more (to use other members sayings) "Skittish"
> Although they appear more laid back and relaxed in the wild, They are more highly strung, more defensive & very easilly frightened and stressed when out of their usual enviroment.
> Even when trying to be gentle & talk to them they cower away and tremble as they are generally not like your common feral that lives among humans and is used to humans being and moving around them.
> I have seen re-habbed woodies that are "people tolerant", but only in so much as they tolerate people closer than one would normally get.
> They still get stressed & fearful when humans get too close.


Thanks Quazar, that's really helpful..I think it explains why the woodie reacted like he did today..maybe this is a good sign really as it shows he is getting back to his normal self... in contrast to how he was on the first 2 days where he would perch on the top of the box in front of me and stay very still while I bathed him.. I sort of got used to that, with not being used to how pigeons react in confinement and thought he would continue like that.

I guess now is the time to back off then with the bathing and let him deal with it himself from here. At least the wounds should be beginning to heal now and the risk of infection much reduced. I'm not sure whether to continue with the topical cream by itself I have been applying, or whether it will do more harm than good based on what you have said... its a zinc and antibiotic cream.


----------



## Feefo

> I expect I will be chastised for appearing to neglect how everyone always says Woodies are never to be dealt with by using kindness, patience, trust, gentleness, or seeking their co-operation for necessary procedures, for fear of them becoming people-tolerant or complaiscent.


LOL, Phil, if you had ever had anything to do with a woodie you would realise just how far off the mark you are. We are not afraid of their becoming "people tolerant or complacent"...the danger is that they will be so frightened by what humans regard as "kindness" that they will have an adrenalin rush and die of a heart attack...it happens!


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> LOL, Phil, if you had ever had anything to do with a woodie you would realise just how far off the mark you are. We are not afraid of their becoming "people tolerant or complacent"...the danger is that they will be so frightened by what humans regard as "kindness" that they will have an adrenalin rush and die of a heart attack...it happens!


Aww they are such timid little creatures  I wish I hadn't tried to bathe him now this morning when he was clearly very scared but I was only doing it because I wanted to help him not get infected and help his chances..it's a difficult call isn't it knowing when to step back. Cynthia in your experience do you think I should stop the saline bathing and continue the topical cream, or stop the cream too? I really don't want to stress the little fella out again.


----------



## morphix

John_D said:


> Woodpigeons are wild birds, and rescued adult woodpigeons will rarely if ever get to become 'people-friendly'. However, if rescued as squabs they may, like any other pigeons, develop a degree of acceptance and lack of fear of humans and be at a disadvantage if or when released. Know your subject.


It's the same for many wild creatures isn't John... I have loads of experience with grey squirrels coming to my balcony for food..they can appear tame and get used to your presence so the door can be open and you can pass them food from a utensil. But you should never make the mistake of thinking they are tame and friendly like pets and over stepping their comfort zone. They are still wild animals and can behave very unpredictably as I found out a few times, once when trying to hand a feed a squirrel (very silly thing to do) and second time when a very friendly balcony visiting squirrel got into my flat through the loft and went ape sh*t running around like a crazed thing and destroying everything in sight!


----------



## Quazar

Feefo said:


> You know your woodies Quazar! I have found that even making accidental eye contact with a woodie from outside the aviary will stress them.


Funny you should say that lol.
Last weekend I was visiting a friend who stays in a new small housing estate on the outskirts of a small village in Fife.
There are loads of woodies in and around the estate, and they regularly feed in the gardens and rest on the rooftops & lamposts.
Ive seen them feeding in the garden when the dog is there & they dont seem to bother about him, but if any human is in the garden, they will not come close.
Also, when walking the dog, the ones on the rooftops & lamposts seem to warn others of any human approach. you can walk under the lamposts & they'll sit there, but look up at them & theyre off immediately.
Another wierd thing is - i've been there several times and nearly everyone has bird tables & feeders in their gardens, loads of woodies, robins, finches, blackbirds, thrushes, crows - you name it,.... except normal feral pigeons. None, zilch. Theres also plenty of railway bridges & the like that pigeons would normally nest under, but not a single normal pigeon or even a hint of poop to suggest they they even exist.


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## Feefo

If the topical cream is easy to apply then I would probably continue with that to keep the wound moist and allow it to heal from the inside. I used F10 germicidal barrier cream on a scalped squab, no saline washes, just a quick smear of cream every time I fed him and it healed very well...but only you can judge the depth of the wound and whether the benefits of the cream outweigh any stress caused by its application. 

I held a very young hand reared squirrel a few days ago....it was one of those always to be remembered experiences!


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## morphix

*Had a little visitor today..*










It's a young juvenile woodie isn't it? It's the first time I seen one ever.

He came to my balcony today and stayed for AGES eating the seed and
just staring at me..I was able to get quite close and he wasn't phased at
all like the adult pigeons that would be off.

Here is a video of him..

http://youtu.be/Y6UqRwXzS9g


----------



## John_D

Quazar said:


> Also, when walking the dog, the ones on the rooftops & lamposts seem to warn others of any human approach. you can walk under the lamposts & they'll sit there, but look up at them & theyre off immediately.


Exactly what I find! Seems to be a regular pair courting on a flat-top lamp post near the apartment. I look up at them and they're gone. Pretend I don't see them, and they're fine.


----------



## Feefo

He is beautiful!


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## John_D

morphix said:


> It's a young juvenile woodie isn't it? It's the first time I seen one ever.
> 
> He came to my balcony today and stayed for AGES eating the seed and
> just staring at me..I was able to get quite close and he wasn't phased at
> all like the adult pigeons that would be off.


Great pic, Paul. He evidently hasn't yet learned to be afeared of the giants 

I had one woodie regularly come to my balcony to eat with the ferals, couple of years back. He would even step inside the door (got a pic somewhere) but if I moved a muscle he would be out and away.


----------



## Feefo

> except normal feral pigeons. None, zilch. Theres also plenty of railway bridges & the like that pigeons would normally nest under, but not a single normal pigeon or even a hint of poop to suggest they they even exist.


It is strange that they don't use the bridge, good nesting places are a strong draw.! I live about a mile away from the city centre where I used to feed several flocks of feral pigeons, but although I get plenty of woodies feeding here I have never seen a feral. I had hoped that the rescued adults that I released from my garden once they were better would remember that there was food here and come back if they were ever hungry!


----------



## morphix

John_D said:


> Great pic, Paul. He evidently hasn't yet learned to be afeared of the giants
> 
> I had one woodie regularly come to my balcony to eat with the ferals, couple of years back. He would even step inside the door (got a pic somewhere) but if I moved a muscle he would be out and away.


How old do you think that young woodie is?


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> It is strange that they don't use the bridge, good nesting places are a strong draw.! I live about a mile away from the city centre where I used to feed several flocks of feral pigeons, but although I get plenty of woodies feeding here I have never seen a feral. I had hoped that the rescued adults that I released from my garden once they were better would remember that there was food here and come back if they were ever hungry!


What is it about the feral's then not coming into towns areas? I guess they are smart in a way as whenever wildlife comes into contact with humans the wildlife come off worse. 

I sometimes wonder about feeding wild animals whether it's actually helping them or not.. some of them seem so dependent on us now and are becoming like semi-domesticated animals but with wild behaviour. It makes you wonder if they will lose their natural foraging abilities over time and be considered a nuisance by humans.. you hear about squirrels using lofts more and more as nesting places and there's a whole industry sprung up for squirrel deterrents!


----------



## Feefo

I would say by the shape of his head that he has only just left the nest but his whole tail isn't visible so I can't really tell.. If you scroll down *Hope's page* you can see what Hope was like at 20 days, which is very similar to yours...Hope flew for the first time when she was 21 days old, I tend to use Hope as a guideline to aging fledglings as I haven't observed one from Day 1.


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## morphix

Feefo said:


> I would say by the shape of his head that he has only just left the nest but his whole tail isn't visible so I can't really tell.. If you scroll down *Hope's page* you can see what Hope was like at 20 days, which is very similar to yours...Hope flew for the first time when she was 21 days old, I tend to use Hope as a guideline to aging fledglings as I haven't observed one from Day 1.


Amazing to think the pigeon can be so big, and developed, and yet still so new to the world 

I have a video of the baby I will put a link on the original post when it's finished uploading..


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> I would say by the shape of his head that he has only just left the nest but his whole tail isn't visible so I can't really tell.. If you scroll down *Hope's page* you can see what Hope was like at 20 days, which is very similar to yours...Hope flew for the first time when she was 21 days old, I tend to use Hope as a guideline to aging fledglings as I haven't observed one from Day 1.


What a lovely story!!! Great photos too!


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## morphix

*Update Day 5*

Dear oh dear. This is getting harder by the day.

I got everything organised today for one visit so I wouldn't need to keep going up and down to the loft, with the intention of minimising contact and stress on the woodie.

I thought if I got him into the other side of his enclosure and covered it over, I could clear out the feeding area side and change his water and food without any fuss. Woodie had other ideas! I closed off the opening to the two areas by resting some card against it and he did not like that at all. He knocked it down several times by pecking it with his beak and kept coming into the area I was cleaning and looking stressed. I continued as quietly as I could avoiding eye contact but he got VERY agitated and tried to bolt the box several times. I was worried he might injure himself so I quickly replaced the mesh lid and covered over the box, put the lights out in the loft and left him for a few minutes to calm down.

On returning, he was calmer, but in the calamity he had totally messed up the feeding area, knocked all the food bowls over, and the water which has soaked all the tissue paper covering and the entire base of the box! In hindsight would of been better to line the bottom of box with a plastic bag. Not an ideal condition to leave him in all damp, but I just can't risk clearing it all out again only to make him even more stressed again.










I'm beginning to think the vet may be right in that he might be about ready to be released now.. he seems very strong and eager. 

What do you guys think? I know it's been mentioned I should wait 2 weeks before trying to allow his wings time to heal.. if he is to stay that long I think I will have to alter the way I'm caring for him and really adopt an _occasional visit_ type of approach... if I leave him plenty of seed and water in there, he should only need visiting once a week and I have the camera so I can keep an eye on him anyway... sounds like a better approach?

Giving him fresh food daily whilst better for his recovery in terms of nutrition/health etc is clearly not helping him cope with being in captivity
and is probably counter-productive now. I have also totally given up trying to put the topical antibiotic healing cream on him, that is just impossible now.

*Here's what he ate yesterday:

Fresh Sweetcorn & Peas: 9g
Seed Mix: Doesn't appear to be touched
Water: 7g*

At least his appetite is stable..I hope he starts eating the seed mix more (which has maize corn in it) when I stop providing fresh foods. Alternatively I could provide fresh sweetcorn but leave it there for a few days, but is there a risk it could make him ill?

Today's menu for the woodie is: baby spinach leaf shredded up, dry mung beans and red skin bird peanuts and the Bird Seed mix. 










Latest droppings pictures below:


----------



## morphix

*Lights question*

In my loft I have two lights on all the time.. it's not overly bright as they are low energy bulbs, but I thought it might help simulate daylight for the pigeon as without the lights on it's pitch black. I can't see a thing. I don't know about pigeons though and perhaps they can see better in the dark than we can?

I'm just wondering if the lighting might be more stressful to the pigeon and better switched off?

Here is the first live video clip of the woodie taken earlier with my Vado HD pocket camcorder, it gives you some idea of the level of lighting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPnj-aZ-Lok


----------



## Feefo

He isn't eating enough...at a rough guess he should be eating 40-50 gms of food a day.

Pigeons have bad night vision. I use my loft as a bird hospital, I leave the lights on during the day and off at night.

Is there any way of checking whether he can fly well enough for release? If not, perhaps it is time for it to go a to a sanctuary where it can be prepared for release from an aviary. They will be able to assess its flying ability.


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> He isn't eating enough...at a rough guess he should be eating 40-50 gms of food a day.


I thought it looked low. I read somewhere as a rule of thumb they need to eat 10% of their body weight and the average adult weighs 500g, so that is right in line with your range there. Hmm..not sure what I can do really, I could try moving his food bowls further back under cover. 



Feefo said:


> Pigeons have bad night vision. I use my loft as a bird hospital, I leave the lights on during the day and off at night.


OK I will do the same and start turning them off at night.



Feefo said:


> Is there any way of checking whether he can fly well enough for release? If not, perhaps it is time for it to go a to a sanctuary where it can be prepared for release from an aviary. They will be able to assess its flying ability.


That is going to be tricky. I don't think it would be a good idea to try it in the loft because there's not enough height and he might injure himself and also he might go to the eaves and it would be very hard space to retrieve him.

I could bring him into the living room and try there..I have tall ceilings so he could try and fly..but it might be stressing for him being in a closed room? What do you think? is it worth risking it and would I be able to assess him in such a small area? You would have to tell me what to look for.

One other safe option, might be to transfer him to this makeshift cage I put together using bits from a garden mini-greenhouse kit I had laying around:










I've made sure there's no sharp edges inside and it's secured with cable ties, just needs a bit of cardboard
for the base and around the gaps at the top... the back is open but if it's kept against the wall he shouldn't get
out.. I have some more mesh for the front, like the one shown which can be lifted up. It's about 1.5 meters
tall. Not a huge space, but maybe with some timbers rested across as perches half way up, he might be 
able to try flying up and down? What do you think Cynthia, would you try it?

Note: picture/camera was lopsided not the cage ;-)

I would prefer to try testing his flight ability and releasing him rather than go to sanctuary, but I must do what's
best for the pigeon, if you think sanctuary is better option and can recommend one local I will try to arrange
it.


----------



## Feefo

Wood pigeons tend to copy other wood pigeons..they relax when those around them do, panic as a group and eat when they see other woodies eating (which is why decoys are used by hunters), so he if I was you I would take him to a sanctuary, although I understand why you might feel he is better with the personal attention you can give: that is a dilemma I often have when I bring a rescue home instead of taking it straight to a sanctuary...then the bird becomes *my* woodie and difficult to hand over to someone else.

The Farm Animal Sanctuary or Vale Wildlife would be fine...there is also Wyre Forest Animal Trust, Kidderminster but their stated aim is to return animals to the wild so I don't know what they would do if he is unreleasable.


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> Wood pigeons tend to copy other wood pigeons..they relax when those around them do, panic as a group and eat when they see other woodies eating (which is why decoys are used by hunters), so he if I was you I would take him to a sanctuary, although I understand why you might feel he is better with the personal attention you can give: that is a dilemma I often have when I bring a rescue home instead of taking it straight to a sanctuary...then the bird becomes *my* woodie and difficult to hand over to someone else.
> 
> The Farm Animal Sanctuary or Vale Wildlife would be fine...there is also Wyre Forest Animal Trust, Kidderminster but their stated aim is to return animals to the wild so I don't know what they would do if he is unreleasable.


I've reflected on what you said Cynthia and as he seems quite improved but is not eating enough, I've took the decision to transfer him to the cage for a bit to try and assess how well his wings are healed. Although the move will be a bit stressful on him, I think he will appreciate having more space and freedom to move around a bit more.. I have put two secure perching bars in, so he can try flying up and down. The next stage will be to let him have a fly around the flat I think sometime over the weekend or Monday. 

Depending on how that goes, I will either try to release him on Sunday/Monday or will make arrangements to transport him to a sanctuary on Monday if he is not able to fly. Clearly he is not coping well in captivity and if he continues to only eat a quarter of what he normally eats he will probably start to suffer if I keep him another week. Obviously a sanctuary would be a better environment for him. Keeping him in my flat was only ever going to be a very short term measure to get him past the critical stage.


----------



## morphix

*Update: 16:20*

Woodie has now been moved to the cage.  The transfer went fairly smoothly he was very anxious to get out of the box enclosure. Initially he tried to get out of the cage, looking for openings or gaps..but I kept a distance and watched out of sight so he didn't harm himself. He soon settled down and started preening and fanning out his wings. 

The only problem with the cage is, its much further back in the loft against the wall and there's not enough light to get a clear camera image so it's hard to keep an eye on him. So I think the cage is really going to be a very short term thing, 24-48 hours max...sort of a transition period before letting him have a fly around downstairs. I'm hoping when he's adjusted he will use the perches at some stage and I'll be able to see how well he can use that bad wing. I'm probably going to rely on you guys now.

He certainly looks ready to fly to me, he's very strong and well. It's just a question of whether that wing that prevented him flying is healed enough.


----------



## morphix

*Update: 19:00 - 21:00*

The pigeon is in my living room!!!!

The most remarkable thing happened..

Earlier not long after transferring him to the cage he started to get extremely agitated..pecking on the bars and trying to force his way through the holes.. I heard the commotion and went up to investigate. Nothing I could do would calm him so I just had to let him out.

I transferred him to a plastic lidded storage box and brought him down from the loft into the living room, with some trepidation but also excitement that he might be ready to fly.

I got him out, and wow..what a transformation..within minutes he was like a different animal altogether. Completely calm, walking around investigating everything, pecking up random seeds from the floor, drinking loads of water..and watching other pigeons by the window!

He fluttered his wings a few times at the beginning and fanned them out like he was going to attempt to fly..but he never did..he also spent a good 30 minutes preening himself all over especially his wings. He was extending his wings, one at a time, then both together and raising and lowering them. But no attempt to fly or perch. Maybe he is not yet ready and feels he is not.

Well he certainly looks a lot calmer and contented being out of the enclosures and having the freedom to roam around as he pleases..he doesn't seem that phased by me being near him in same room, as long as I respect his space and don't get too close.. 

I've put out more foods for him but he doesn't seem interested in any of it, only water.. he actually knocked over a tub of water and then sucked every last drop up off the wooden floor! He doesn't seem very clever as it took him an awful long time to work out how to drink from the water tub. It's translucent plastic and he was trying to get at the water from the outside for ages, then he finally put his head in.

He's just chilling at moment and resting by the window near the curtains.. I think he will be ok left out the enclosures now and I will wait and watch for him to show me he is ready to fly.


----------



## Quazar

morphix said:


> He doesn't seem very clever as it look him an awful long time to work out how to drink from the water tub, it's transparent and he was trying to get at the water from the outside for ages, then he finally put his head in..


Lol, one of my young feral rescues was like that, even though her beak was dipped in the dish, she still tried to get it from the side, was hilarious to watch.

If youre now letting him have free roam, keep a very close eye on him, and 
if he starts fluttering his wings, he may well start taking longer flutter hops.
have a good look around for any non-safe pigeon areas. Woodies unlike normal ferals are not as adept at landing on things in small spaces. They can be very clumsy landers as they are more used to more open space around them.
Even wooden floors dont have a lot of grip and he may just clatter into something & do more damage to himself.
Also beware of the window.... If he does get the notion to take flight, it will be more than likely his first direction... straight into the glass !!
If you can, cover it with a fine net curtain that he could still see through, but he would be aware he cant fly through.


----------



## morphix

Quazar said:


> Lol, one of my young feral rescues was like that, even though her beak was dipped in the dish, she still tried to get it from the side, was hilarious to watch.
> 
> If youre now letting him have free roam, keep a very close eye on him, and
> if he starts fluttering his wings, he may well start taking longer flutter hops.
> have a good look around for any non-safe pigeon areas. Woodies unlike normal ferals are not as adept at landing on things in small spaces. They can be very clumsy landers as they are more used to more open space around them.
> Even wooden floors dont have a lot of grip and he may just clatter into something & do more damage to himself.
> Also beware of the window.... If he does get the notion to take flight, it will be more than likely his first direction... straight into the glass !!
> If you can, cover it with a fine net curtain that he could still see through, but he would be aware he cant fly through.


Thanks Quazar! I was hoping someone would give me some pointers like that, as I was quite nervous about letting him have free roam and also not knowing the signs to look for that he might have a problem still with that bad wing. 

I will keep in mind what you said about the windows..I don't have any nets so I will keep the curtains drawn for now. 

I'm a bit nervous about leaving him in the living room on his own tonight in case he does what you said and has a bad landing or falls off something, but I'm reluctant to put him back in his box, maybe it's for the best though and I can bring the box downstairs and then let him out again tomorrow when I wake up.


----------



## Quazar

If there is more room in the cage, that may be better as he could see out, see whats happening around him and that may make him a bit calmer.
if hes in the box & cant see out and senses any noise or movement, that will prob stress him more.
Also leaving him out means cleanin poops when you dont know where hes been as he'll be awake long before you lol


----------



## morphix

Quazar said:


> If there is more room in the cage, that may be better as he could see out, see whats happening around him and that may make him a bit calmer.
> if hes in the box & cant see out and senses any noise or movement, that will prob stress him more.
> Also leaving him out means cleanin poops when you dont know where hes been as he'll be awake long before you lol


Good thinking. I could try him in the cage downstairs but I'm not sure it's a good idea for this fella....its strange but, I get the feeling this pigeon REALLY hates enclosures of any kind, and the cage more so than the box for some reason.. He really turned quite aggressive when he was in there, even tried to peck me through the bars and pecked all the bars themselves.. I think it was just his way of telling me, I really don't like being in here please let me out. 

He's sleeping now in the corner behind a box, I got the lights on low.

I love your photo btw, that's an unusual and handsome pigeon the white one.


----------



## Quazar

morphix said:


> I love your photo btw, that's an unusual and handsome pigeon the white one.


Thats Snowy, (& Sue-T) couple of ferals that have been frequenting the garden since December. Both are amazingly tame & come right up to the window (and sometimes inside) to feed. Theyve not been around much since the neighbour got a cat & lets it out.
Theres more pics of them both Here and here


----------



## Feefo

> I get the feeling this pigeon REALLY hates enclosures of any kind


As long as you are both comfortable with the arrangements I would let him be, just take precautions to stop him bashing into the window...but if by some unfortunate accident he did just that (my Littlewood managed to bash herself against the roof of the aviary and concuss herself, she was tame but I think something startled her) *this page* describes the symptoms and treatment for concussion, which can often be confused with a broken neck..


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> As long as you are both comfortable with the arrangements I would let him be, just take precautions to stop him bashing into the window...but if by some unfortunate accident he did just that (my Littlewood managed to bash herself against the roof of the aviary and concuss herself, she was tame but I think something startled her) *this page* describes the symptoms and treatment for concussion, which can often be confused with a broken neck..


Thanks  I will keep a very close eye on him. 

He hasn't made any attempt to fly still, but seems to be preparing himself by flapping his wings and raising them high occasionally. 

Last night I tried to put him in a box before I went to sleep to avoid him injuring himself, but he flew out. Not straight away and it wasn't a perfect landing, he fell. But it was only 30cm. I tried to put him back in the box a short while later and cover it with a towel but again he did not like it. He started pecking the sides of the box and trying to poke his head out. I thought he might harm himself or get distressed so I decided to risk it and leave him out... i lifted the towel and he actually walked onto my hand and i lowered him to the floor and he walked off and seemed content to settle down resting on a mat. I get the feeling he's not ready to fly because his wing is not right and they don't look symmetrical to me from the front. I have shot plenty of clear video so I will upload some today and hopefully yourself or one of the other experienced pigeon people will be able to tell if there is a problem with his wings or if he needs more feather growth..

This morning I came in and he was by the window (curtains still closed) and had made quite a few droppings for me! I left food bowls and water around, but I don't think he ate much. He seems to eat better if the seeds are scattered on the floor he goes around pecking them up excitedly like a hen, but he seems reluctant to eat off plates or from bowls.. I did get him eating some oats and seeds off a saucer though earlier.

I opened the back door for him early about 6.30am to see if he might be wanting to go, or at least perch on my balcony..but he didn't show any interest other than being very interested in all the sounds of the different birds... 3 noisy magpies came near the balcony and that really unsettled him. He looked frightened.


----------



## Feefo

He is a very strange bird, but sounds delightful! If I hadn't seen his photo I would think he was a juvenile. I wonder whether he has escaped from some sort of captive environment? The last "wild" woodie we got had been cared for by someone that thought he was a baby (he had lost his tail, so looked smaller than other woodies) for 6 weeks, even in the small aviary he was absolutely terrified of humans and would rush for shelter when he saw us. It took him some time in the big aviary to calm down

It is interesting about the foraging...it is their natural method of feeding but we humans are very hygiene/neatness orientated and expect animals to appreciate that. I am glad you are going with what he finds easiest.

If you get a good photo from the front our Pidgey should be able to give you an idea of what the actual damage to the wing is and how long it will take to heal.


----------



## Dobato

morphix said:


> I opened the back door for him early about 6.30am to see if he might be wanting to go, or at least perch on my balcony..but he didn't show any interest other than being very interested in all the sounds of the different birds... 3 noisy magpies came near the balcony and that really unsettled him. He looked frightened.


Paul, I am not sure this is the best thing to do just yet, allow him access to the wild before he is ready. His wing may be functioning enough to allow him enough flight capability to get up and away, but not well enough to make his survival an assured thing. Before you release him, please get the go ahead sign from Cynthia or Pidgey with your little guy.

You're doing a good job with him, let's make sure he is really ready when the time comes,

Karyn


----------



## morphix

Dobato said:


> Paul, I am not sure this is the best thing to do just yet, allow him access to the wild before he is ready. His wing may be functioning enough to allow him enough flight capability to get up and away, but not well enough to make his survival an assured thing. Before you release him, please get the go ahead sign from Cynthia or Pidgey with your little guy.
> 
> You're doing a good job with him, let's make sure he is really ready when the time comes,
> 
> Karyn


Ok Karyn, I will definitely wait until you guys say he is ready to be released.

If I can get him eating a little bit regularly it should help build his strength up.


----------



## morphix

*Today's droppings*


----------



## morphix

*Update: Day 6*

The pigeon has made his first little flight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeYcd5RtbDc

Only from the floor to the sofa, but it's a promising sign.

With him out of the enclosures I've been able to observe him a lot more closely, especially how he eats. I've noticed he seems to not be able to swallow anything bigger than very small seeds and grains..he tries to eat sunflower seeds, picks them up but seems unable to swallow and just drops them..other larger things like fresh sweetcorn he won't even attempt. And generally he won't eat unless encouraged to. If I bring him things he will eat them readily..earlier I was feeding him wheat and barley grains and he was taking them one after the other and eating without any problem. I brought him walnut cake pieces and he seemed to really like that and even ate bigger pieces. His appetite is very poor though and not what I expect from an adult pigeon..I know pigeons eat a lot more in a single sitting than this fella does, so either he is unwell, or just the strange environment is putting him off.

His droppings have become very watery today, but some are perfectly formed and solid, just very small. This might be normal, as he has been drinking quite a lot of water yesterday and this morning, and eating very little.

He seems withdrawn and happy to rest on the floor hardly moving..but then he has moments when he's quite active, walking around, preening and looking very alert. He is hardly phased at all by me going up to him and when he was sitting on the sofa a couple of times, I was able to sit to next to him and even stoke him and he hardly seemed bothered. Certainly not the behaviour you would expect to see from a wild bird, unless he has become familiarised with me now he has been here 6 days. It may also be like Cynthia suggested, that he's been handled already by someone.

Here are some photos of his injuries...

Left side (just slight abrasion to the skin)










Right side (much worse):










Front view










Notice how looking from the front, the left wing appears to stick out more and the dark feathers on the bottom of the wing appear to hang lower.


----------



## morphix

*Woodie eating breakfast...*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK4caZP3YBE

Only a very short clip...uploading files to YouTube very slow takes hours for anything more than a couple of minutes!


----------



## morphix

*Funny video...*

The Injured pigeon made a mess but helps to clean it up!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gN5w8ZarE

Isn't he a star!


----------



## morphix

*Flying progress..*

He made a third attempt at flying onto the sofa this afternoon, trying to perch on the arm again...but this time he didn't quite make it and fell down. Didn't attempt it again.

A bit later on, he tried to perch once more this time on a slightly slower target than the sofa, a large cushion resting against a box, and he made it! He's been on there a while now, preening and looking out the window. He looked like he wanted to try another flight from there to the sofa or table, but decided to stay put. I will upload a short video clip of the flight shortly.. at least he is getting to use his wings a bit. Easing back into it!

A strange situation happened just before that..he was sitting near the window and another woodie came to the balcony and saw him inside from the railing...the woodie outside was very curious/puzzled and came right up to the window glass to look at him..and for a moment, they were both gazing at each other.. I got the whole thing on camera so will upload when I get chance.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi morphix,


I myself would not feed any sort of Pea Nuts, if you had been...

Even the slightest trace of Aspergillum on the Nuts, could prove disasterous to a compromised or iffy immune system of a recovering Bird.


Some of the poop images, the Urates are either like flat white paint, or, are sort of stringy and mixed with the feces.

He may have a high Trichomona and also Yeast or Fungus or Candida count which is not pathological, but which is off and on nudging that way.


While not being a definitive sign, and does not seem to have been consistent, this Urate appearance is suggestive of some issues which we would prefer not to see.


Were you able to obtain any sort of fresh ripe small Berries, or dried Berries of this kinds or analagous to the kinds which Wood Pigeons Eat? ( Sorry, I could not remember if you had! ) 


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## amyable

morphix said:


> The Injured pigeon made a mess but helps to clean it up!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gN5w8ZarE
> 
> Isn't he a star!


That's quite amazing seeing. He certainly seemed desperate for water once he realised what it was. Has he ever drank from that tub? It was as if he didn't know what it was in there.

Love the captions by the way. 

Janet


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Hi morphix,
> 
> 
> I myself would not feed any sort of Pea Nuts, if you had been...
> 
> Even the slightest trace of Aspergillum on the Nuts, could prove disasterous to a compromised or iffy immune system of a recovering Bird.
> 
> 
> Some of the poop images, the Urates are either like flat white paint, or, are sort of stringy and mixed with the feces.
> 
> He may have a high Trichomona and also Yeast or Fungus or Candida count which is not pathological, but which is off and on nudging that way.
> 
> 
> While not being a definitive sign, and does not seem to have been consistent, this Urate appearance is suggestive of some issues which we would prefer not to see.
> 
> 
> Were you able to obtain any sort of fresh ripe small Berries, or dried Berries of this kinds or analagous to the kinds which Wood Pigeons Eat? ( Sorry, I could not remember if you had! )
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Hi Phil,

Thanks for the useful info and the warning about peanuts... I did offer him some ******* peanuts but he hasn't eaten them, he wasn't able to swallow them. I won't feed any more of them. 

I see what you mean about the poops..the fact they have been quite watery has worried me a bit, when viewed in conjunction with his placid demeanour and inactivity. He is quite happy to just sit on the arm of the sofa while I watch tv. You would be mistaken for thinking he is a pet or domestic animal if you saw him and how he just leaps up onto the arm and takes food from me. 

I didn't get any berries unfortunately I didn't think of that..but maybe I can do some research and pick some locally. I offered him some fruits today (banana and apple) and orange juice in the hope he might get some vitamin C, but he wouldn't take any except eating the stringy bits off a banana! He is a quite a fussy eater for a pigeon I must say, or just off his food. He ate some wholemeal bread with relish and some more of that walnut cake..although its not very nutritious food, as he's eating so little I thought it better than nothing to keep his energy level up. He does feel a bit cold for a pigeon..I've handled a few in past that got trapped on balcony and they felt much warmer.

I put a drop of organic hemp oil in his water earlier which I thought might be good for helping his feathers and skin heal as its a very good source of omega oils.


----------



## Feefo

> I myself would not feed any sort of Pea Nuts, if you had been...
> 
> Even the slightest trace of Aspergillum on the Nuts, could prove disasterous to a compromised or iffy immune system of a recovering Bird.


You could say the same about maize....perhaps about most of the foods that pigeons get, but although you have a big problem with aflatoxins in peanuts in the US, here in the UK we can, and do, buy aflatoxin free ones....


----------



## Quazar

loved that vid too lol, (janet i think it was speeded up a bit towards the end  )

Nearly all pigeons have a knack of standing on the edge of the dish to drink & feed - result - their weight and balance topples the dish & everything goes everywhere.
I used to use small ramakin type dishes, which are quite heavy, but even they topple over when the bird gets over zealous & flicks the seeds they dont want out.
I'm currently using a couple of old "pub" type ash trays, the ones that are shaped like dog or cat bowls (but not as large) that way its impossible for them to tip them. Doesnt stop them tossing the ones they dont like tho lol


----------



## morphix

amyable said:


> That's quite amazing seeing. He certainly seemed desperate for water once he realised what it was. Has he ever drank from that tub? It was as if he didn't know what it was in there.
> 
> Love the captions by the way.
> 
> Janet


Thanks Janet! 

He is a curious little pigeon I must say.

When I first showed him the water tub he tried to get water from the outside, going all the way along the bottom, and then he tried to suck water off the rim of it.. once he figured out the water was inside and at bottom he drank it no problem...but he won't go to the tub himself which is odd.. he frequently walks past it and never drinks from it. However if I take the tub to him when he's perched or sitting somewhere, he drinks from it every time and seems quite thirsty.


----------



## morphix

Quazar said:


> loved that vid too lol, (janet i think it was speeded up a bit towards the end  )
> 
> Nearly all pigeons have a knack of standing on the edge of the dish to drink & feed - result - their weight and balance topples the dish & everything goes everywhere.
> I used to use small ramakin type dishes, which are quite heavy, but even they topple over when the bird gets over zealous & flicks the seeds they dont want out.
> I'm currently using a couple of old "pub" type ash trays, the ones that are shaped like dog or cat bowls (but not as large) that way its impossible for them to tip them. Doesnt stop them tossing the ones they dont like tho lol


I have the very same problem on my balcony, whatever I try they manage to tip over..they will tip over a huge heavy porcelain bowl I use by standing on the rim. They also land in the water every day and knock it all out. They are rather clumsy birds as you said..prone to knocking things over and falling over themselves!


----------



## John_D

You could try berries, but our experience was that when we got various berries, and rose hips, which woodpigeons normally eat .... we ended up with a load of unused food. Our woodies and those that feed at our wild bird station just did not take much interest. Occurs to me that though they eat them off the bushes, they may just not recognize them served up loose.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi morphix,


Now...refresh my memory please - 


What Medicines was this Bird on? And, what Medicines is he on at the moment?

I am thinking it is 'none' and, 'none'...yes?



And, is there yes or no a dessicated, scabby largish wound on his back or side of his back?


I think this Bird may be showing all the classic if sublte signs of fighting a low grade systemic infection...and possibly some localized infection in whatever Wound sites as did not get debrided and also treated with topical Anbtibiotic Ointments or Salves.



I think a week or so on some broad spectrum Antibiotic might be a good idea at this poiint...but lets explore these details some more first before deciding.


And, posting every other day fresh poop images, of course, along with whatever else for observations, eating, etc.


We can see what others think who are experienced with the Woodies ( as I am not )...but, that is my read on this.



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


----------



## morphix

John_D said:


> You could try berries, but our experience was that when we got various berries, and rose hips, which woodpigeons normally eat .... we ended up with a load of unused food. Our woodies and those that feed at our wild bird station just did not take much interest. Occurs to me that though they eat them off the bushes, they may just not recognize them served up loose.


Thanks John I know where I can get my hands on some rose hips and black berries nearby, so I could try those..


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Hi morphix,
> 
> 
> Now...refresh my memory please -
> 
> 
> What Medicines was this Bird on? And, what Medicines is he on at the moment?
> 
> I am thinking it is 'none' and, 'none'...yes?
> 
> 
> 
> And, is there yes or no a dessicated, scabby largish wound on his back or side of his back?
> 
> 
> I think this Bird may be showing all the classic if sublte signs of fighting a low grade systemic infection...and possibly some localized infection in whatever Wound sites as did not get debrided and also treated with topical Anbtibiotic Ointments or Salves.
> 
> 
> 
> I think a week or so on some broad spectrum Antibiotic might be a good idea at this poiint...but lets explore these details some more first before deciding.
> 
> 
> And, posting every other day fresh poop images, of course, along with whatever else for observations, eating, etc.
> 
> 
> We can see what others think who are experienced with the Woodies ( as I am not )...but, that is my read on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes!
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Just to reiterate and summarise:

The pigeon is on no antibiotics or other medicines, which was the decision of the vet. 

Both the wounds were treated by myself with saline water daily for the first 4 days. And topical antibiotic cream (with zinc) was applied for 2 days. 

By the 5th day, as he became increasingly, and eventually extremely agitated having the cream applied, and there was no easy way to contain him, I decided it was best to leave it to heal by itself at that point
as it just seemed counter-productive and adding a load of stress each day on the pigeon.

I might try applying some more topical ointment cream today as he seems a lot more calmer now he's out of the enclosures, and generally lets me touch him albeit, briefly (any longer and he pecks me and tries to get away).

Looking at the wounds, it's my opinion that it's healed well on the abrasion side, but the other deeper wound on opposite side is still uncertain. 

It's been difficult to monitor food and water intake as accurately as I did in the loft as the pigeon has been drinking and feeding randomly from multiple sites and a much wider range of foods. However I've now returned to using 1 feeding bowl (to try and keep my flat/apartment clean and tidy!) which will make weighing easier. But just looking at what he eats, it's still way below what I expect an adult pigeon to be eating, maybe 25% or 30%.

UPDATE: After posting this I was able to apply the topical antibiotic and zinc ointment to the deep wound side.. the pigeon looked a bit alarmed but didn't panic or get agitated.


----------



## morphix

*DAY 6: Summary and new video*

Well yesterday was his second day downstairs roaming freely. 

He does seem a lot happier and more contented being out in the open and enjoys perching and using his wings to get up and down, which he has done more frequently today than yesterday. He's chosen one arm on the sofa with a view to the windows and keeps returning to that spot.

He's preening and stretching much more regularly...it seems every hour or so.

Still seems withdrawn, lacking lustre and happy to just sit quietly for the most part. Whether this is just down to him recovering from the ordeal and shock he's had, or whether it is sign of an existing underlying illness or infection, who knows.

On the positive side, his condition remains stable, and hasn't deteriorated, in so far as he hasn't been eating any less than he normally does, and he remains active, alert and engaged with his surroundings.

Food intake:

*7-10g (approx) bird seed mix
walnut cake (few large pieces)
wholemeal bread (few large pieces)
2-3g (approx) rolled oats 
bits of spinach leaf

Water: drinking normally and regularly throughout the day.

Still has to be encouraged to eat and drink, won't go looking for them himself

*

Here is the last video clip from yesterday, a slightly longer one which shows another perching attempt on a cushion (his previous attempt to perch on the sofa arm failed, but he later tried again and managed it that time). This video should be helpful to you more knowledgeable people here who know the signs to look for concerning his readiness for release:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWd-NTGQro


----------



## morphix

*Day 7: Update*

This morning I went to check Edward (I've decided to give him a name) and he was still perched on the arm of the sofa where he was last night. No sign he had been off there either during the night.

He seems ok, has been preening and stretching his legs and wings a bit, and he's eaten a few seeds from his bowl which I took to him. 

I applied some antibiotic and zinc ointment to his bad wound side and he didn't seem to mind too much. So I will resume treating it, even though he's had a gap of 2 days without treatment.

It has been a lot harder (physically and emotionally draining and time consuming) caring for him while he has the freedom of the flat, but I'm coping. We have sort of settled down now and he's happy to perch in one place.

This pigeon is indeed strange! BREAKFAST: Offered him, bird seed mix...ate a few small seeds but quickly lost interest.. offered him linseed, showed interest initially, picked them up but dropped them and didn't eat any.. offered him oats, no interest. offered him sprouted mung beans, no interest. Brought some chunks of walnut cake...scoffed the lot! Lifting and throwing back big chunks down his throat without any problem! He actually looked excited when he saw the cake. Ate about 5g of cake in a few seconds. Junk food pigeon? 

Droppings from this morning:


----------



## pdpbison

Can you Post some close up images of the Wounds?


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Can you Post some close up images of the Wounds?


Yes I will take some with macro when he settles down a bit later, he's a bit active today!


----------



## morphix

*First proper flight through the air!!!*

Edward has just flown from the sofa arm across the room approx 6-7 ft to a box by the window!

It was a perfect flight and landing. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera close by to capture it. His wings looked to be working perfectly fine to me and he travelled in an even line. 

He is now perched on the box and crouched down on his belly looking out the window.


----------



## morphix

John_D said:


> You could try berries, but our experience was that when we got various berries, and rose hips, which woodpigeons normally eat .... we ended up with a load of unused food. Our woodies and those that feed at our wild bird station just did not take much interest. Occurs to me that though they eat them off the bushes, they may just not recognize them served up loose.


I had a look for some berries earlier on my morning jog but it's too early in the season isn't it for most berries.. the rose hips are not yet ripe, all I could find was hawthorn berries just starting to ripen.. I offered them and he looked interested and pecked but didn't eat any.

I just realised I have some blackberries frozen in the freezer and also blueberries and strawberries..I will try thaw them to room temperature and see if he will take any of those.


----------



## Feefo

If he is a city center woodie then he probably *is* a junk food junkie by necessity...or he could have been rescued and raised on junk food. You would be surprised at the number of people that find baby woodies and hand raise them.

He sounds as if he is making good progress.


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> Can you Post some close up images of the Wounds?












This was taken this morning after applying the topical ointment cream, so it probably looks worse than it is on the dark areas due to feathers being coated in ointment.

I haven't photographed the other side as there is nothing there to speak of, he had a slight skin graze, but he has since re-arranged his feathers and it can't be seen now.


----------



## morphix

*Update: Edward took a fall *

Earlier he tried to fly back from his new perching box by the window across to the sofa arm, about 6-7 feet. Unfortunately he didn't quite make it and he landed on the edge of the sofa and fell backwards onto the floor, landing on the seed bowl. After which he proceeded to limp off looking quite disheveled and went underneath a coffee table to rest. I don't think he actually hurt himself. Not sure whether the fall was just bad judgement on the landing or a sign he is really not up to flying still. 

Here is a video of the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi443xy6514


----------



## Quazar

Looks like he was trying to judge how far he gould go, but wasnt up to it.
He drags the wing a little afterwards so obviously still has problems with it.
With him being out, he'll always want to explore in this way.
I'm wondering if maybe the wing could be strapped to stop him flying till its healed a bit better, and this would still allow him to roam about on his feet.


----------



## morphix

Quazar said:


> Looks like he was trying to judge how far he gould go, but wasnt up to it.
> He drags the wing a little afterwards so obviously still has problems with it.
> With him being out, he'll always want to explore in this way.
> I'm wondering if maybe the wing could be strapped to stop him flying till its healed a bit better, and this would still allow him to roam about on his feet.


Phew, strapping it could be tricky he is a feisty fella and I wouldn't know how to do it, but I could try I suppose if I can find a video or guide on how to do it properly. 

I just realised it's the left wing he is dragging, and that is the side which although sticks out more than the right side, has the least amount of visible injuries on it (just minor skin abrasion).. so maybe he has hurt that wing or the muscles during his original accident more than I realised. Perhaps there is some swelling or infection we didn't realise which is why the wing is sticking out? When I get chance I will try and examine him more closely and lift some of the feathers back. 

Perhaps strapping it at this point isn't such a bad idea.. how long do you think it should be kept like that?


----------



## Quazar

Karyn or Cynthia would be the best ones to advise how long, and how to do it, as strapping a wing is something ive never really had to do.
Ive watched the vid again in slow motion and I think hes maybe just twisted the wing a bit on the seed bowl trying to right himself as his feet were sliding about, using that wing rather than the other one.
He's def not got the power to able to fly properly for any distance as he spent long enough calculating how far, but just couldnt get the lift to make it and was a good 6 inches short.
The sofa also being a smooth material meant he couldnt get a grip with his beak or feet to pull himself up as they would normally do in a situation like that.


----------



## Feefo

I have never strapped a wood pigeon, but Janet (amyable) has. I will ask her to have a look to see if she thinks it needs strapping.


----------



## amyable

Oops Edward !

Definitely not right for release yet. I have an ex racing pigeon that had a shattered radius and ulna bone when she arrived and has a piece of bone missing so she will never be able to be released.
In saying that, she can now manage to fly as far as Edward did there even though her wing is permanently damaged. So we do need to monitor Edward for a good while longer because he may have some damage that is still not obvious.

The trouble with Woodies as you know, is that they can't lift off very well and it could just have been that he needed enough space to get the momentum he needed, but the wing doesn't lie properly and so I suspect it's more likely due to the injury.

If you want to inspect it more closely without him flapping and getting flustered then the ideal way is the wrap him up in a towel making sure his head is covered. They do tend to stay still then. Have him lying on his side on your lap and just gently lift up the corner of the towel enough to reveal the wing part you're interested in, (keeping his head covered).
Also if you wish to be able to examine the skin then dampen the feathers with cotton wool so you can part them. You will be able to see the wound better that way.
It could be he has a scab that needs bathing to remove so you can see if there's any sign of a puncture wound.
If his skin is dark purply green, then it's badly bruised and this could be the cause of the droop you're seeing.

Let us know what, if anything you find if you do manage this.

Janet


----------



## amyable

Sorry had just posted when I had Cynthia's message.

They aren't easy to strap as they do flap more than ferals but I have managed it a couple of times. Be prepared to get very frustrated as you may have to do it more than once. 

You need cohesive bandage though that sticks to itself rather than the feathers. I get mine from Tescos but chemists would sell the same.

I strap them in a figure of eight, start across the back, take it over the injured wing to keep it close to the body in it's normal position.
Then wrap it under the other wing leaving this free, then take it across it's back doing the same for about three circuits.
You have to make sure you keep his vent clear so he can poop and also don't make it so tight across his keel that he can't breath.

They don't balance too well at first so it would be best to keep Edward confined again in his 'house' with food and water in easy reach in front of him.

I'd still be interested to see the injury better before strapping in case it needs some more attention before binding it up.

Janet


----------



## morphix

amyable said:


> Oops Edward !
> 
> Definitely not right for release yet. I have an ex racing pigeon that had a shattered radius and ulna bone when she arrived and has a piece of bone missing so she will never be able to be released.
> In saying that, she can now manage to fly as far as Edward did there even though her wing is permanently damaged. So we do need to monitor Edward for a good while longer because he may have some damage that is still not obvious.
> 
> The trouble with Woodies as you know, is that they can't lift off very well and it could just have been that he needed enough space to get the momentum he needed, but the wing doesn't lie properly and so I suspect it's more likely due to the injury.
> 
> If you want to inspect it more closely without him flapping and getting flustered then the ideal way is the wrap him up in a towel making sure his head is covered. They do tend to stay still then. Have him lying on his side on your lap and just gently lift up the corner of the towel enough to reveal the wing part you're interested in, (keeping his head covered).
> Also if you wish to be able to examine the skin then dampen the feathers with cotton wool so you can part them. You will be able to see the wound better that way.
> It could be he has a scab that needs bathing to remove so you can see if there's any sign of a puncture wound.
> If his skin is dark purply green, then it's badly bruised and this could be the cause of the droop you're seeing.
> 
> Let us know what, if anything you find if you do manage this.
> 
> Janet


Thanks for the info Janet. I decided to try the towel method earlier to get a closer look at that dodgy wing..what a disaster! I put the towel over him and initially he lay still, but then he started wriggling like mad and backing out..I tried to hold him and lift a bit of the towel to take a look but he got away from me and went frantic running all around the flat..

I managed to corner him in the bathroom and while I was there I decided to give him a wash as he was covered in poo, all over his wing and feet. Mucky Eddie! I put a bit of warm water in the bath and got a clean sponge and first bathed his wings.. the dodgy one is all encrusted with something, probably dried blood. The feathers are all matted together and the skin looks quite scabby. I tried to focus on that side and washed it well but he didn't like it and flew onto the sink and nearly fell off. I put my finger there and he walked onto it! He was able to regain his balance and step back onto the sink rim and remained there perfectly while I washed him properly and removed all the muck off him. He tried to attack the sponge but gave up the struggle and stayed there. I was able to put the antibiotic and zinc ointment on his wounds then.

I swear he was in a sulk afterwards for rest of the evening. Every time I offered him food he turned his head away. And when I sat next to him on sofa (usually he doesn't mind), he flew away onto a table where he is still now. I was a bit gutted as it seemed all the trust we have built up over the last 6 days just disappeared. 

But a bit later he did take some some stringy bits from the inside of a banana skin..I dangled them above his head like worms and he got all excited and took them one by one. He's a funny bird. He prefers walnut cake and wholemeal bread to anything natural or healthy and that is the main thing he's been eating today, apart from a few seeds.

I've had to clean all the flat again for the umpteen time. I'm getting through toilet paper at an alarming rate..I need some pigeon nappies!


----------



## Feefo

Our Tweetywood was rescued by someone on this forum and later adopted by us. When he was with his original rescuer he developed a taste for spaghetti and banana...not together.


----------



## amyable

I'm so sorry you had a bad time. It's quite hard to describe how to carry out things so I hope I haven't upset Eddie too much.
You do have to hold them quite firmly while wrapped so they feel they can't get away as any chance they get Woodies will make a dash for freedom, as he did!
It sounds as if you're doing a great job of bathing while he's standing on the sink so don't worry.

Anyway at least he had a good bathe. So do you think there might have been a solid scab on that wing from what you could see when the feathers were wet or was it just scratched.
Sadly puncture wounds don't always show as they're often small but deep, but if they have scabbed over there can be an infection going on underneath and if so the scab needs to come out for the hole to heal from inside.
That was my only reason for trying to see a bit closer but obviously we don't want to stress him too much.

I think it's funny that he likes cake so much. a bit like children, don't always want what's best for them. 

I'm sure he'll forgive you as it does seem as if you have quite a good relationship as far as wild Woodies go.

Perhaps it might not be such a good idea to try and strap his wing either as that will definitely upset him.

Janet


----------



## pdpbison

It would apear that Both Wings have been injured and do not presently posess either full orbits, or, are lacking strength in addition to not posessing full range of motion.


He should not be permitted to be trying to use these Wings for some weeks yet.


He may have made his not-yet-resolved injuries worse, in these flying efforts/attempts.

I suspect that the Wing which is held away from the Body somewhat had a cracked Bone, or a joint injury, or both, and, really ought to have been stabalized for a couple weeks or more before letting him try the Wing in flying attempts.

At this point, you could simply Tape the last inch or so of his Primary Feathers together, over the small of his Back, where, he would be free to trot around, and, be thus restrained from trying to elevate or extend his Wings.

To this, you could also add a light Tape Wrap going around his Body, around the main area of the Wings, also...which wuld prevent his trying to overcome the wrapped/taped Primary ends.

Elect a kind of Tape which will adhere just enough, but not so well as to present troubles later, when wishing to remove.

If nothing else is available, use Scotch Tape but contaminate the adhesive side by lighty dusting with Flour or by pressing your finger tips on to it enough so that it retains only enough adhesion to work.

Over here, a brand called 'Micropore' Tape is quite good for this, and is sold in Home Health Care, Home Medical Supply places, and, probably is also available over the internet.


Anyway, both Wings have problems, and, without a cogent exam, it is pretty hard from here to try and say quite what they are, other than likely having been something which had occurred just prior to, or in consequence of, the infered collision with the Bus.


Phil
Lv


----------



## morphix

amyable said:


> I'm so sorry you had a bad time. It's quite hard to describe how to carry out things so I hope I haven't upset Eddie too much.
> You do have to hold them quite firmly while wrapped so they feel they can't get away as any chance they get Woodies will make a dash for freedom, as he did!
> It sounds as if you're doing a great job of bathing while he's standing on the sink so don't worry.
> 
> Anyway at least he had a good bathe. So do you think there might have been a solid scab on that wing from what you could see when the feathers were wet or was it just scratched.
> Sadly puncture wounds don't always show as they're often small but deep, but if they have scabbed over there can be an infection going on underneath and if so the scab needs to come out for the hole to heal from inside.
> That was my only reason for trying to see a bit closer but obviously we don't want to stress him too much.
> 
> I think it's funny that he likes cake so much. a bit like children, don't always want what's best for them.
> 
> I'm sure he'll forgive you as it does seem as if you have quite a good relationship as far as wild Woodies go.
> 
> Perhaps it might not be such a good idea to try and strap his wing either as that will definitely upset him.
> 
> Janet


Thanks Janet! Don't worry we didn't know how he would react at least I gave it a try and I stopped once I saw it was distressing him too much. He is very feisty and it presents a challenge for someone like me who has no experience how to handle or hold a pigeon, it's probably why he could sense it. 

I had a look at the wound on that wing he drags as I could by parting the feathers a bit..it's hard to explain, doesn't look like a scab in the normal sense, like a red/dark coloured area, but perhaps birds are different. The only way I can describe it is like a skin/scalp disorder when the skin becomes very dry and flaky. It looks whitish/off-white and feels like it's all encrusted and matted with the feathers such that the feathers don't easily separate and in some areas not at all. You can actually tap it and it sounds and feels cardboard! I noticed when he preens he avoids that area or just rubs over it briefly. 

I will try to get a couple of clear photographs of it today. I'm not sure how I would go about removing that compacted encrusted stuff there. Warm water seems to have little effect. Perhaps I need to apply a bit more pressure and use the abrasive side of the sponge..I'm just worried I might do more harm than good and Eddie is not an easy patient!


----------



## morphix

Feefo said:


> Our Tweetywood was rescued by someone on this forum and later adopted by us. When he was with his original rescuer he developed a taste for spaghetti and banana...not together.


Funny, a pigeon eating spaghetti! I could try that with Eddie actually as he seems to favour starch foods. I meant to ask you Cynthia, would a younger adult eat much less than a more mature adult, and would his weight be any indicator of his maturity and/or required food intake going by the 10% of body weight rule of thumb?

Little things give me the impression he might be quite a young adult..just into adulthood perhaps. He seems naive at picking up large seeds and nuts etc, his feet are very thin compared to other adult pigeons I've seen, and the way he is not as scared and willing to sit near by me and be hand fed.. When I offer him food by hand he opens and closes his beak rapidly like a fledgling might do, and he's more inclined to take the food if its held above his head and dangled at him.


----------



## morphix

pdpbison said:


> It would apear that Both Wings have been injured and do not presently posess either full orbits, or, are lacking strength in addition to not posessing full range of motion.
> 
> 
> He should not be permitted to be trying to use these Wings for some weeks yet.
> 
> 
> He may have made his not-yet-resolved injuries worse, in these flying efforts/attempts.
> 
> I suspect that the Wing which is held away from the Body somewhat had a cracked Bone, or a joint injury, or both, and, really ought to have been stabalized for a couple weeks or more before letting him try the Wing in flying attempts.
> 
> At this point, you could simply Tape the last inch or so of his Primary Feathers together, over the small of his Back, where, he would be free to trot around, and, be thus restrained from trying to elevate or extend his Wings.
> 
> To this, you could also add a light Tape Wrap going around his Body, around the main area of the Wings, also...which wuld prevent his trying to overcome the wrapped/taped Primary ends.
> 
> Elect a kind of Tape which will adhere just enough, but not so well as to present troubles later, when wishing to remove.
> 
> If nothing else is available, use Scotch Tape but contaminate the adhesive side by lighty dusting with Flour or by pressing your finger tips on to it enough so that it retains only enough adhesion to work.
> 
> Over here, a brand called 'Micropore' Tape is quite good for this, and is sold in Home Health Care, Home Medical Supply places, and, probably is also available over the internet.
> 
> 
> Anyway, both Wings have problems, and, without a cogent exam, it is pretty hard from here to try and say quite what they are, other than likely having been something which had occurred just prior to, or in consequence of, the infered collision with the Bus.
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Thanks for the great info Phil.. I have considered it, but based on the way he reacts I think perhaps its best left and he will just have to take his chances. Being such a small flat and him being mostly under my supervision, I can just prevent him flying and lift him onto his perches I guess.

I have to accept my limitations and inexperience I think. I may end up doing more harm than good if I try handling him again too much. The fact I'm giving him food and a safe place to recover should improve his chances and the rest is really up to him. I think he is a strong bird and a fighter so providing he doesn't come down with an infection he should heal. 

The "weeks" part makes me very nervous! I had only envisioned this process taking 2 weeks at most and it's really starting to drain me and become a full time job. I may have to hand over to a sanctuary if it's going to take that long. 

The fact he is not eating anything near what an adult pigeon eats is also a cause for concern..the longer that continues, the more his weight will drop and his overall health. Maybe the food is different to what he eats in the wild, or just the strange environment or stress he has been under, is affecting his appetite, not sure. The longer he goes not eating enough, the more his weight will suffer and his overall health I would think.

The other thing I'm worried about is that he might bond with me and become too familiarised.. Unavoidable to a degree, but I'm hoping not to a level that he won't want to return to the wild again..surely he would still fly when he feels fit again and ready? I'm trying to keep him engaged with the outside and other birds..I open the curtains and door a little so he can he see and hear them visiting my balcony.


----------



## morphix

*Edward's food list*

Dislikes:

Mung Beans (dry or sprouted)
Sunflower seeds
Peas
Lettuce
Rocket
Cucumber
Tomatoes
Peanuts
Fruit & berries
Nuts (any)
Porridge
Baked Beans

Likes:

Walnut cake
Wholemeal bread
Small seeds
Stringy bits off banana
Sweetcorn (occasional)
Oats (occasional)
Spinach (occasional)
Dead moth (nibbles)


----------



## morphix

Dobato said:


> You need Synulox, Amoxicillin, Cephalexin or Baytril


Last week I mentioned a pharmacy source I used in past for prescription medications that carry antibiotics and supply without prescription to UK, US, Canada and some countries in Europe.

They have a very wide range of antibiotics, but these seem to match Dobato's recommendation above:

*Augmentin (Amoxicillin/Clavulanate Potassium) - 500mg (20 Tablets) £4.26

Ceff (Cephalexin Monohydrate) - 250mg (10 Capsules) £4.40

Keflex (Cefalexin) - 250mg (20 Capsules) £7.40*



Also specifically for pets:

*Otibact Ear Drops (Enrofloxacin/Silver Sulfadiazine) - 5mg/10mg (15mL) £5.70

Clinvet Oral Solution (Clindamycin) – 25 mg (20 ml) £5.80*

Discounts are available for multiple quantities and most are available in higher strength.

Many of the medications are generics so cheaper than branded. Delivery costs £5 and takes about 7 days. If anyone wants to know the name of the source please private message me as I don't want to break forum rules on advertising. I'm merely posting for information purposes only in the hope it might be useful to someone who can't get to a vet or afford the treatment.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi morphix, all,




morphix said:


> >>>>>snip<<<<<
> 
> I had a look at the wound on that wing he drags as I could by parting the feathers a bit..it's hard to explain, doesn't look like a scab in the normal sense, like a red/dark coloured area, but perhaps birds are different. The only way I can describe it is like a skin/scalp disorder when the skin becomes very dry and flaky. It looks whitish/off-white and feels like it's all encrusted and matted with the feathers such that the feathers don't easily separate and in some areas not at all. You can actually tap it and it sounds and feels cardboard! I noticed when he preens he avoids that area or just rubs over it briefly.



Some of my concern with the second injury site, was that it looked - in what little glimpse there was of it - as if it c-o-u-l-d maybe be the top of a Necrotic 'plug' of localized infection, from an Eye Tooth Bite, Pellet Gun perforation or Puncture of some sort, and, hence, of possible on-going issue or damage or infection which has not resolved and may not resolve unless properly debrided and medicated.


Now, it may be merely a scab, from a superficial injury, which is not yet released, and, merely concealing new and healthy tissue repairs which are not quite concluded to release the scab, and, thus, would be of no special import.

But, unless it is investigated, we have no real way to tell which.


To me anyway, no seemingly 'simple' Scab is ever 'simple' when it can reliably be the exterior portion of a present and on-going and serious interior localized infection, Abcess, Pellet Gun wound, infected and sealed off Puncture or other deeper and non-resolving trouble.

I never fuss with Scabs once they form AFTER the intitial debriding and cleaning and investigation and so on of the wound or injury...but, any Scabs present when a Bird arrives, I do try and investigate what they may conceal, and, often enough, they conceal deeper troubles, which they have sealed off, so...thus my interest and concerns.


Just because a Bird is hit by a Car, flies in to a window, or, was caught and escaped from a Preditor, does not mean the Bird had not been injured, shot, infected from a puncture or cut or bad scrape, or ill, or combinations of these, prior to either of those events.


Phil
Lv


----------



## pdpbison

morphix said:


> Thanks for the great info Phil.. I have considered it, but based on the way he reacts I think perhaps its best left and he will just have to take his chances. Being such a small flat and him being mostly under my supervision, I can just prevent him flying and lift him onto his perches I guess.



Well, the decision, along with other decisions, ideally would form on a basis of more detailed examinations or diagnosis.

As it is, we really do not have much to go on, to say what is going on with him, and, his Wings.

My own suspicion though, is that he injured both Wings, and, is fighting some low grade systemic infection, as well as possibly a localized one.



> I have to accept my limitations and inexperience I think. I may end up doing more harm than good if I try handling him again too much. The fact I'm giving him food and a safe place to recover should improve his chances and the rest is really up to him. I think he is a strong bird and a fighter so providing he doesn't come down with an infection he should heal.



It does not really work that way.

Or I mean, what is best for his recovery, will depend on a correct evaluation or understanding of what his problems are, and, for those to be adressed deferentially, according to what they are, and how they need to be addressed.

If a Bird ( not yours, but...say, some Bird, for sake or arguement,) has an identifiable illness, and, has a broken Leg as well, the gesture of food and shelter, while kind, is not going to bode well for a viable or optimum recovery, compared to the Leg being correctly set, and appropriate meds, and, appropriate restraints during convelesence, and so on.




> The "weeks" part makes me very nervous! I had only envisioned this process taking 2 weeks at most and it's really starting to drain me and become a full time job. I may have to hand over to a sanctuary if it's going to take that long.



On any given day, I may easily have five about like this, and, another five or seven who are critical and have to be Tube Fed, and, a few infants or Babys, as well as that I work at my remunerative Occupation at least sixty hours a week...it not more.

I am no stranger to exhaustion.

Lol...




> The fact he is not eating anything near what an adult pigeon eats is also a cause for concern...



Yes...


This would be expected if there are localized infection sites which are contaminating him systemically...or, if he has some sort of low grade systemic infection, or, illness...


Or, if he does not like the food...

But you seem to be providing a nice medley, so...there ought to be enough for him to choose from I think.

But the fresh Greens though, you ned to cut them into tiny bits of say, 1/8th inch wide by 3/16ths of an inch or so long, otherwise he will not be able to, or, 
safe to, eat them.

Or, provide fresh Greens on the stem, so he can tear off tiny bites.

1/2 inch wide by 1/2 inch wide sized pieces are vastly too large, and, would likely not be eaten, or, can present a danger of eaten, so, no good...





> ...the longer that continues, the more his weight will drop and his overall health. Maybe the food is different to what he eats in the wild, or just the strange environment or stress he has been under, is affecting his appetite, not sure. The longer he goes not eating enough, the more his weight will suffer and his overall health I would think.



Yes...




> The other thing I'm worried about is that he might bond with me and become too familiarised.. Unavoidable to a degree, but I'm hoping not to a level that he won't want to return to the wild again..surely he would still fly when he feels fit again and ready? I'm trying to keep him engaged with the outside and other birds..I open the curtains and door a little so he can he see and hear them visiting my balcony.




Well, the way things are going, he is not appearing to be heading toward any eventual release, anyway, so...


I dunno...


I can not speak about Wood Pigeons and their dispositions.

The Birds I work with who I have to do a lot of things for during their illness/injury recovery, tend to become pretty friendly and accepting, trusting.


Once well, and, into the freee rove free fly pre-release with other pre-release WILD ones, they soon revert to being WILD and I can not get near them...and, they wish to have nothing to do with me.

Some exceptions, but, usually that is how it goes.

IN other words, they abide, and, accept the situation, and, are willing to trust me up to a point, they know I have to do things to help them, and, they are willing to go along with it.

Soon as they can have their autonomy back, and, are feeling good again, they see no need to rely on me or to put up with me, and, that is okay with me, too!

Lol...

Even the really friendly releaseable ones in most cases self release anyway, and, do not come back, though I may see them from time to time outdoors or down the street or whatever, and, once out in the Wild again, I know they know me, we know eachother...but they never land on me or get especially close or do anything the Always Wild ones do not do.


I never permit anyone to be a Shoulder Bird or Head Bird, and I am glad I adopted that discipline - where, the friendly ones then while here, never do it or see it done, and, they shall never do it or wish to do it once released, either.


But, those are not Wood Pigeons, so...




Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## amyable

Hi,

Having read your description of the scab area I understand what Phil is saying about there p-o-s-s-i-b-l-y being a reason to remove it to see what is going on under there.
It would require you to bathe it with warm saline water to help soften the edge of the scab. I gently tease it then with a cotton wool bud so the edge lifts and then gradually the scab will come away with the hardened feathers and sometimes it will bring away a necrotic plug if there is a puncture of some sort underneath.
I can understand the sound you describe when you tap it which tends to sound as if it's not just a surface scrape. It's very difficult to say for definite and obviously I don't want to encourage you to perform anything your not happy doing.

Where abouts are you located by the way. Not in the West Midlands by any chance? I'd like to help if you were near enough.

I can send you some Baytril anti-biotics if needed if you decide to carry on treating Eddie and maybe the scab will eventually come away on it's own at some point with you carrying on with the bathing technique Eddie is happy with.

You are doing a great job and have certainly helped Eddie no end to survive to date.

Just keep us posted and we'll help all we can.

Janet


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## morphix

*Update: Day 7 - Pigeon Has Gone*

At approximately 11:30am this morning Edward flew from my balcony and away off into the yonder. I know I will probably get slated for it, but please hear me out..

What happened was, I was trying to feed him again, but he would not take any food today. Not even his favourite walnut cake. He seemed quite perky today and hyper though. Very engaged with the window and watching other pigeons, moving his head back and forth a lot.

He also seemed restless and was frequently moving (from around 7am) from place to place, he flew onto the sofa, then onto the table, then onto the floor..

Around 11:30 I was putting some seeds out for the birds on the balcony feeder when suddenly Edward, from across the room, from the floor, flew right across and into the window. I checked him over and he looked ok. But he got very agitated and was flying against the window all along the floor.
I tried to remove him and settle him, but he was having none of it and flew right back over and again, was even more insistent flying against the glass..even taking steps back and running at it.

Phew. I didn't know what to do and had to make a split second decision. His little eyes told me he really wanted to go and was ready. Despite my better judgement and what you guys said about not releasing him, I decided to trust me instinct and let nature take over. In the back of my mind was the vets words that he would be ok to be released in a few days..and I figured, since he wasn't eating much he wouldn't last long anyway kept in this alien environment and that I had done all I could for him at this point. I figured if he couldn't fly and crash down somewhere I would be here for him as behind my flat is a big car park and i have a clear view.

So feeling very anxious, I opened the door, and let him go. He looked all excited and eager, he stepped out onto the balcony and made his way across to the railings...at this point I was on tender hooks, as it is a 30 foot drop into the garden below if he couldn't make it. 

He positioned himself on the edge of the balcony and squeezed his wings through and then without any hesitation, flew across to the tree next to my balcony and rested up on a branch in the wind. He was looking all around and getting his bearings...and then within less than a minute, he flew right across the car park and over some trees, at which point I lost sight of him. His flight looked pretty good, not perfect, but plenty of height and he was beating his wings fairly normally.

Fearing he might have a fall or get grounded over the back somewhere near a road, I went on foot and checked everywhere with my rucksack, but no sign. I came back and fetched my electric bike and made an extensive check of the wider area all around my flat checking everywhere, but no sign of him.

I'm quite choked up and miss the little fella.. the flat feels empty without him..but it had to happen sooner or later. At least I won't have to keep cleaning up poop every 3 hours!

I think I will keep checking for the next few hours in case he is stranded somewhere. But my instinct tells me he is going to be ok and will be able to fly to safety. I just hope he finds food and is able to take care of himself. 

God bless the little fella.


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## amyable

Hi,
Well good luck to Edward, he's back where wants to be and will do all he can to survive. The time he's spent with you has given him time to rest and re-charge at least.
The way to look at it in my mind is that if you hadn't picked him up that day, he probably wouldn't be alive now.
I know it's very hard to watch when they're agitated and wanting to go, they just can't understand what's stopping them and can very often do themselves a lot of damage when they bash against an aviary wire or a window etc.

You write an excellent account by the way, it's like a good story, I was holding my breath waiting to see what the outcome was! 

Don't beat yourself up about it, you did what you thought was best and it was great to hear he flew up to tree height and off.

Well done for all you did.

ps. I hope clearing up the poop doesn't put you off helping another bird in need again though should one come your way.

Take care.

Janet


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## morphix

amyable said:


> Hi,
> Well good luck to Edward, he's back where wants to be and will do all he can to survive. The time he's spent with you has given him time to rest and re-charge at least.
> The way to look at it in my mind is that if you hadn't picked him up that day, he probably wouldn't be alive now.
> I know it's very hard to watch when they're agitated and wanting to go, they just can't understand what's stopping them and can very often do themselves a lot of damage when they bash against an aviary wire or a window etc.
> 
> You write an excellent account by the way, it's like a good story, I was holding my breath waiting to see what the outcome was!
> 
> Don't beat yourself up about it, you did what you thought was best and it was great to hear he flew up to tree height and off.
> 
> Well done for all you did.
> 
> ps. I hope clearing up the poop doesn't put you off helping another bird in need again though should one come your way.
> 
> Take care.
> 
> Janet


Thanks very much Janet for your kind and soothing words  

I had 2 more rides around, one just a few minutes ago and there is no sign of Edward so he must be hanging out with his flock somewhere and probably eating cake ;-)

You know, I wouldn't say it was easy, but it was an amazing experience I will never forget..being so close to a beautiful wild animal with such a quirky personality!

If I had to do it all over again if I saw another bird or animal in need of help, I would not hesitate. And should the situation arise again, I will at least be better prepared.

Big thank you to yourself and everyone who gave me advice and support along the way, it was much appreciated. 

Paul

P.S. I think we may actually be quite close, as you mentioned you're in West Midlands, I'm in Redditch on the outskirts. Pity we didn't realise sooner.


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## Quazar

Thats the problem with glass, they just dont see it from a distance, and since its normally brighter outside, and they see their own kind flying, thats where they keep trying to go. They cant seem to comprehend that there is something solid to stop them & just pick themselves up & try again.
From the way you described his leaving, I think he definately made up his mind. Hopefully his wings will continue to get stronger and be able to keep him out of trouble.
If he finds other woodies around your area, hopefully he may return with them to feed, or if he gets into trouble, you never know, you may find him on yourt balcony waiting to get back in, although being a woodie thats doubtful lol.
You did what you could for him & I would probably have done the same with his determination.
Certainly, hes definately had another chance & will hopefully have learned to avoid buses.


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## Feefo

I had to do the same once and release a collared dove before I considered her ready, because she was harming herself so much in her anxiety to get out.

Maybe you could leave some cake in the area that Edward made for?


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## morphix

Feefo said:


> I had to do the same once and release a collared dove before I considered her ready, because she was harming herself so much in her anxiety to get out.
> 
> Maybe you could leave some cake in the area that Edward made for?


I put the last of the walnut bread on table for him  I can't be sure, but I think I just caught sight of him through my binoculars in the same tree he first flew to, preening. Another pigeon came and there was a stand-off and he flew away. I couldn't be sure, too many branches in way and I only see him from front, but it certainly looked like him as he has a dark spot on his head.


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## morphix

Quazar said:


> Thats the problem with glass, they just dont see it from a distance, and since its normally brighter outside, and they see their own kind flying, thats where they keep trying to go. They cant seem to comprehend that there is something solid to stop them & just pick themselves up & try again.
> From the way you described his leaving, I think he definately made up his mind. Hopefully his wings will continue to get stronger and be able to keep him out of trouble.
> If he finds other woodies around your area, hopefully he may return with them to feed, or if he gets into trouble, you never know, you may find him on yourt balcony waiting to get back in, although being a woodie thats doubtful lol.
> You did what you could for him & I would probably have done the same with his determination.
> Certainly, hes definately had another chance & will hopefully have learned to avoid buses.


I've had over half a dozen pigeons visit since he left and each time I keep looking hoping to see him! I wonder if he will return to his old stomping ground where I found him in the next estate, it was not far from some woods... or perhaps he will stay around here as there are plenty of trees and sheltered enclosed spots..


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## Quazar

chances are he will stay close, especially if the spot where he had his accident (or his "home territory" ) is some distance away.
Woodies dont really travel as far afield as ferals do in their search for food.
They tend to have "local haunts" and having a slightly different diet relying on garden & woodland vegitation they tend to roost or nest very close to their "supply"


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## amyable

morphix said:


> P.S. I think we may actually be quite close, as you mentioned you're in West Midlands, I'm in Redditch on the outskirts. Pity we didn't realise sooner.


Well how about that!! I'm in Sutton Coldfield to be exact.

Now don't forget where we are when your next patient calls and in the meantime, please pop by to post any interesting videos and pictures you may take when you have any Woodies visiting.
It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom on here. 

All the best for now,

Janet


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