# Pigeons at work, a cause for my concern.



## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

Hello. I work at an afterschool care facility. I work with children ages 6-12. We have noticed two pigeons roosting in our patio area. I assume they're making a family up there, as one is always sitting on the nest. I am quite fond of them, but the other staff, and the children are not. I have shoo-ed away children multiple times because they throw basket balls at the nest, and generally act hatefull to the birds. (Screaming at them and the like) I -really- want to rescue the eggs and raise them, because I fear for their welfare. I also wouldn't mind a nice pet.  I wanted some adivce on the eaisest and most ethical way to go about this. In the mean time, I will contiue to watch that corner of the building and keep the kids away.


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Judifur,

Thanks for the concern for this nest. 

Can you advise which country/state you are in?

Tania x


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Funny you should ask.*

I'm on a US military instalation in Germany. I'm technically on US property, and all that jazz. What's up?
-Judi


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## kittypaws (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi Judi,

Reason I ask is that if you were in the UK it is actually illegal to remove a nest and eggs of any wild birds and ferals do get classed as a "wild bird" in this case ( when it suits eh??)

I have no experience of raising squabs from eggs but I think it is very, very difficult with an incubator required.

Do you know how long ago the eggs were laid?

Tania x


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi Judi, These are my thoughts. Why should these birds be disturbed because these children are behaving in a hateful and threatening manner.

I think what I would do is try to talk to these children and explain in a gentle manner that their behavior is wrong. A child between the ages of 6-12 have a good idea of what is right and wrong. Explain simply that it is cruel to hurt or disturb these birds.Children need to be taught to respect all forms of life. Maybe you could educate them about pigeons and birds in general , so their interest in the birds is a positive one and not destructive as at present.

You say the rest of the staff are also hostile towards these birds, which is a poor example for the children. I understand your concern and why you are so worried.

In the meantime please try to keep these birds safe from harm. Someone with more knowledge than myself will respond soon.Though the problem seems to be in educating these children to respect nature. The birds are not causing any nuisance where they are and should be allowed to live their life.

Thank you so much for caring. Please keep us informed there are people who will help you if necessary .You will get all the advice you need. Everyone is friendly and helpful. My very best wishes. Jayne


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Welcome Judifur,

Thanks for trying to help these pigeons.

I agree with what Canary Jayne has had to say.

I work with children too, and it is a mystery to me as how some children are thrilled and facinated to see nature in action and love learning about it, while other children's first inclination at seeing nature in action is to throw a rock at it.....very frustrating!

Anyway, if I were in your situation, I would do what Jayne suggested but to go further, I would also try to turn it into a type of "science project" with the children. Maybe you could print a fact sheet or information and pictures about pigeons taken from our site or off Google to help spark their interest You could all observe the nest everyday and try to identify who is the mother bird, who is the father bird....try to "catch" them taking turns sitting on the nest. And then once the babies hatch, perhaps you could observe the birds feeding them and take notice of the sounds the babies make and keep track of how fast they grow, etc. I believe the whole process from egg laying to the babies flying and leaving the nest takes about six weeks or so......Then, when it's all over, if you feel that it would still be a problem having the birds roost there, the nest can be cleared away and perhaps the birds will choose another spot for the next round.

If you can trick the kids into taking an interest in the birds and the nest, perhaps they would be more protective of it.....I would also try my best to get the most popular and influential kids in the group over to "my side," because then most of the others should follow.

Good luck, thanks for caring, and I'm sure others will be along to offer you advice as well.

Linda


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Another wonderful afternoon.*

It does sound like a good idea to make a project out of this situation, teaching them about nature, the life cycle of birds etc. I did tell the main group of children bothering these birds that they are attempting to raise a family up there, and they don't appriciate having things thrown at them. Asking "would you like it if someone was throwing things into your house when you're having supper with your family?" got alot of "so what?" and "who cares?" It was frustrating to say the least. Today, an older child informed me while no one was watching, a child threw a ball at the mother (I assume) and hit her in the face, and she flew away. Also, in mom's absence, I watched from a distance as another girl, not knowing I was watching, told her friend "look, the mom bird is gone" and threw a basket ball right at the nest (which fortunatly is shielded by some wood beams). I sent her back inside. 
After everyone was picked up, i set some bird seed outside. I was relieved to see that who I think is dad, came back. But my supervisor wasn't too thrilled about the fact I was feeding them. She said she wanted those dirty rats with wings gone, and feeding them would keep them close. She doens't like the bird poop, and beleives they are desieased. She put a work order in to have those spikey things installed to keep them away, i don't know when that is going to happen. Anyway..fun day. The birds have been up there for quite a while (2-3 weeks?) , I cannot see into the nest, so i don't know how long there have been eggs, heck there could possibly not be any in that nest!
I have to go though, thank you so much folks!
-Judi


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*sigh, I'm sorry.*

sounds like you have a gem of a supervisor  With that kind of support those poor birds don't stand much of a chance. Can you possibly ask her to wait until you think there are no chicks in the nest to feed? In the meantime, I'd continue to try and get the children a bit more positively active in taking good care of the birds. Since you are on a military installation, maybe it's an opportunity to teach the children about the military history of the pigeon and how pigeons were valuable members of many countries' signal corps for years. It can be very hard to reach children, especially when the day care leader sounds as if she'd actively encourage the children to destroy the nest. There's a lot of resources available out on the web that might help you to educate the grown-ups and the kids as well. 
I've learned so much about pigeons just being in the forum (plus, I love to research things I don't know about, I know too weird  ). I'm trying to teach my little group of cubscouts some of what I've learned (the boys think just like your supervisor -- the rats with wings thing, even the one boy that seems to love nature) so that as they grow, they might have a better appreciation for all living things and not be so prejudiced against pigeons. It's amazing the number of grown-ups that turn up their noses at pigeons so we have a lot way to go. Oh, well, don't give up. If you teach just one person to respect these birds, that's one more in our corner.

Umm . . . Just a thought. Since the rock dove (aka pigeon or white dove) is native to Europe, might there be some German law that forbids bothering birds? Worth a chance.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Mistreatment of animals*

Hello Judi,

One person can make a difference. Don't give up.

Each of us can make a difference. Look at the influence Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed have had. Look at the influence Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and such have had. Some are examples of what to do, some are examples of what not to do.

Point that out to your kids. If I had children, I would tell them this. Good people have an effect, affect others. Bad people also affect us. Which do they choose to be? What type of person do they want to grow up to be? What type of persons do they want to grow up with, do they want to have around them?

Hitler helped effect the deaths of many. I've read he also liked dogs. There were some things about Hitler that those who knew him liked. 

When you are confused, sometimes you will do things that have good results. Other times you will do things that have bad results. When you are confused, you are confused. You are not clear about what you do, and what you should be doing. 

When you do not know where your home is, the place where you are safe and can rest, you are lost. If you do not know how to find your way home, you are lost. If you are a million miles away from home and do not know how to get back, you are lost. If you are just arond the corner from your home, but do not where home is, how to get home, you are lost. Either way, you are lost. 

If you are a million miles away from home, but know where it is and how to get there, you are not lost. If you are close to home, and know where it is and how to access it, you are not lost. Knowing how to get home, to a place of safety, to a destination, to a goal, is very valuable. Knowing what to do and what not to do is very important, and very valuable. It is okay to travel. It is very important to not become lost.

When people talk about what they think of as God, the being they perceive as being perfect, they have many, sometimes conflicting, ideas. 
Usually they think of him as being omniscient, knowing everything. And omnipresent, being everywhere at once; (you have to be omnipresent in order to be omniscient, unless your interpretation involves a telescope of sorts). Being omniscient means being very, very clear. Very clear about what is perfect, thus desirable, thus worthy and good; and means being very clear about what is not perfect, thus undesirable. 

If you think it is okay to hurt animals, things that are helpless, and grow up thinking that, you will find it very easy later (as you grow up) to accept that it is okay to hurt not only animals but also people, because you will be confused, and will often see people as mere animals. 

People, humans, are also animals as defined by the biological sciences. As we learn the differences and the similarities between us and other animals and other things of creation or existence, we start treating all of them, and thus also ourselves, the same. Contempt and abuse of other creatures starts with and ends with contempt and abuse of ourselves. 

Knowledge and appreciation and love of ourselves entails knowledge and appreciation and love of all others, all things existing, hence gratitude, hence happiness. We may perceive the process as starting with ourselves and ending with others, or starting with others (as when a person who dislkes himself is given a pet to care for as therapy) and ending with ourselves, but the threads of the process are intertwined and circular. Confusion per se, confusion in itself, does not exist. It is merely an absence of knowledge, a lack of awareness. Schooling attempts to impart an awareness of things useful and necessary. Knowing what you are and who, the person, you want to become is very important. 

A child is carefully and with much effort taught to hate. He was not born that way. But that child has an escape route from that hatred. It is called hope. Hope can never be taken from someone, but a person himself can bury hope so deep that it is hard to find. 

You can, and will, have more influence on yourself than anyone else or anything else can or ever will. Good habits, bad habits are carefully developed patterns which begin with many small, repetitious choices of action. You choose the person you are and will be. 

So, if you grow up hurting and abusing animals, and surround yourself with others who think the same way, you will grow up to find that others are willing and able to hurt and abuse you. You will expect rocks, bullets, bombs to come your way. And you will have to accept them, because you will be no different from those who cast them. 

If you do not hurt and abuse animals or others, you may expect that there will be those who want to and who can hurt you, but you will not accept it from others, because you do not accept it in yourself. And you will try to ostracize, marginalize those who do abuse, and try to effect a change in their behavior. If there is no reason for others to hate you, then why should they? And if they do hate you, why is it? If they like or love you, there must be a reason. 

Larry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Excellent post, Larry and I agree with your statements.

One of our members, Misty (a.k.a. Cathy) has these words in her postings. I hope she won't mind if I post them here. These words really touched and impressed me: 

*"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"*

Shi


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Judi

If the parents have been around for 3 weeks, there might be babies in their nest.
Do you speak some German? 
There is a forum in Germany where you can ask for help, I suppose you could even post in English (I already did):

http://www.stadttaubenhilfe.org/

There is a section in this forum called "Hilfegesuche", you might get some help with the problem.
I wish you the best,

Myriam, Belgium


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Thank you for the inspiration*

Larry's post was quite deep. Monday is the day I will chat with the children about this, again. Do you folks think it's ok to get a ladder and peek into the nest (not touch it or anything) and see how many eggs there are (or baby's perhaps by now) and snap a picture. The children can't really see what's going on in the rafters. Some of them probably don't really think there's anything up there, like an egg, because they cannot -see- it. A visual reference might prove useful. Someone also posted about the pigeon's history with the military. That's a -really- good approach. I will continue to try getting through to these children. I have two young camp counselors working at the center, and they are pretty environmentally aware too. Hopefully i can get them on my side about this, i haven't talked too much about this at work. I don't think they know just how worried I am for these pigeons.
I have found that military children are especially hard to get through to. There is so much talk of violence at home, with the war and all, some children's parents are actually in the middle east. They see their parents fix their problems through force, they keep their lower ranking officers in line through yelling, and putting them down, so they come to the center, and do those same things to other people when they don't get what they want. Then getting the parent's support when issues arise is not always easy.
But...I will continue. Sorry for the venting. I have been continuously frustrated by the behavior at the center (and the lack of things we are allowed to do for it due to policy) and the pigeon issue just is exsaperating it. 
Thank you folks again. I will keep you posted.
-Judi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Judi,

I think it would be fine to take a peek in the nest and get photos if there are eggs or babies in there. Good luck in getting through to the children you are working with .. it's important that they learn kindness, compassion, and respect for other living beings.

Terry


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Hey Judi,
Being a 14 year old from California being raised here and always having over 200+ pigeons in the family it is hard to hear about something like that. I have noticed with my friends and even me that the only thing that can get our undivide attention if the television. So go to this link of a great DVD about pigeons everything from the military aspect to the domestic pigeons to my family's hobby. I recommend going to my video on google and downloading it from there and put it on a DVD and showing the kids. It is a great DVD that you might even want to watch. And Concerning the taking a picture of the nest it sounds like a great idea. One more idea would be to have a local pigeon racer come in with a few birds and show the kids some racers and also show how much people like us racers care about our birds and how much we love them. So think about that. But here is the link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5460866787914300967&q=world+of+pigeons&hl=en

My best wishes,
Matt D. the pigeon dude


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*So, they gone and done it....*

I was afraid this would happen. The other day one of the children at the center threw a ball at and hit one of the pigeons while I wasn't looking. *heavy sigh* This particular pigeon did not move around too much the rest of the afternoon. By the end of the day, it still hadn't flown, and I was able to collect it and board it up at home. I've been observing her (I think it's a girl) and she started to seem ok...eating, drinking, alert. but she's making a faint sneezeing noises, and her droppings are becomming watery with a green and/or yellow tint to it which i haven't seen before.. I paniced and ordered some suggested anti-biotics which i read about on other threads. The meds wont arrive for at least a week, or more. is there anything i can do for her in the meantime? seeing as i'm stuck in germany, i honestly have -no clue- where i could go to buy anything for a pigeon! I don't even know where to start...which is sorta frustrating to me as germany is supposedly a popular place to own pigeons.
does anyone have any suggestions? am i overeacting? *tugs on hair*

alrighty then.... thanks.
-Judifur.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You might want to PM Larry. He might know of places where you could get some meds.
As for now keep the pigeon warm and comfortable. Make sure he drinks and eats. He might have some illness to begin with and that is why it was easy to hit him with the ball.
Is it a young bird or an adult?

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*meds for German pigeon rehab*

Thanks Reti,

Just now saw it. I'm going to eMail her my contact info, phone, etc. I can mail some stuff. Inside country no problem, although it is a weekend (Friday afernoon here). 

If any of you are in touch with her and advise her in the meantime (some of which is beyond my capacity), this is the basic heavy stuff I have to work with:

*cipro*

*cotrim*

Antiworm Röhnfried

Spartrix (from feed supplier)

*Moxydectin Plus* (against all internal and external bloodsucking parasites, mites, tapeworm, etc.) from Siegel's in USA

A partially used packet of Gambacoccid (against coccidiosis).

My great vet (good on pigeons, it seems) charges 13 Euro -- about $15 -- basic fee for visit, plus meds, which usually brings total to around 20 Euro. Visit with x=ray for Osk-gurr total bill was 44 Euro. Bills with previous vet (retired, or on pesonal family matter sick leave) were about the same 11 or 13 Euro for baqsic consultation. 

(items in bold prescription or vet only items)

Pigdge may have worms or cocci, maybe? 

Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Please visit:
www.stadttaubenhilfe.com
It is a forum, if you register and ask for help, some of the members may be located near to you and bring/send you meds.
Myriam


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re German city pigeon web-site*

Hello Myrpalom and Judifur and all, 

She'll have to register (in German, I think). She can get asistance if necessary. 

I'm sure posting in English won't be the greatest problem.

I tried registering a couple of times, unsuccessfully. But now that I think of it, I think it was a year or so ago, when I was at the community center senior citizen twice-a-week internet cafe. Maybe it was because passwords weren't saved, or some such thing, or because I then had a (free) Yahoo account.

At any rate, I gave up, and visited the forums only occasionally. For info and speed, I prefer working in English. 

Locally available meds would be the quickest. 

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I don't think that you are over reacting, pigeons can go down quite fast when they are taken ill. However, it could have a virus, cocci, canker or worms none of which can be treated with antibiotics.

Can you look inside her mouth to check that it is clean and pink? If it isn't then please tell us what you see.

For the time being place her on a heat pad (or hot water bottle) wrapped in a towel to lie on and keep an eye on what she is eating and drinking.

Have you registered with the forum that Myrpalom recommended? There might be a member near you who has medication that they can share.

Cynthia


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*still hanging in here*

I have contact with Larry. I'm checking if he knows the names of any pets stores which sells medicine locally, then I can attempt to do a search, see if these is a store nearby. Plus, i think it's super awesome he's offering to help. 

I'm looking at the german forum and wishing I knew more German. Plus, my computer keeps telling me i am unable to open the registration page. I'll try that again later.

To the best of my knowledge, the pigeon is an adult, to answer Reti's question.

And her mouth looks nice and pink to answer Cryo's question. if that changes, i'll let you'all know

I know you guys probably get this question alot, but can i catch anything from this pigeon? I read people can catch clamydia. =\ what on earth are people doing to catch clamydia from a pigeon?! and how do i prevent it? that's a conversation i don't want to have with my husband. "honey, i caught clamydia from the pigeon..." >.<

i'm washing my hands, and cleaning the cage once a day, and the surrounding area, but it's not like i'm changing my cloths and taking a shower everytime i clean out her cage.

alright, thanks again.
-Judi


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Except if you have a lung allergy for pigeon dust, you cannot catch anything from pigeons.
I deal with my 600 pigeons every day, since 1992, and I handle the sick ones, I did not ever caught anything from them.Never.
Pigeon bacteries and viruses are pigeon related, they do not jump on a human body. Unless you eat their eggs raw, while they have salmonella!
That is just bulls.... that municipalities use to justifie they "have to" cull pigeons. And you will catch chlamydia easier from parrots and parrakiets (how do I spell this word????) than from pigeons.
Myriam, Belgium


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*yeah, figured as much*

I kinda figured it was alot of hype about catching illness from the birds. I think someone with poor hygine skills would possible suffer more, but i'm nurotic over washing my hands after working with children so often.

it's been suggested to me that i take some pictures of the poopies, for further study. fortunatly i have white newsprint down in her cage, so it should be easy to see. I will muck around with that in the A.M. when it's light.

pigeon seems alert, been eating, and i believe drinking. She's been tromping around alot in her cage, and doens't seem the least bit fightened of me anymore when i walk into the room. she just stares at me.

I've been calling her Inara. but still the runny poop and the sneezing =\ i'll keep her warm. g'night
-Judi


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*German website "city-pigeon-help" (translation)*

Hello Myriam and Judith and all,



myrpalom said:


> Please visit:
> www.stadttaubenhilfe.com
> It is a forum, if you register and ask for help, some of the members may be located near to you and bring/send you meds.
> Myriam


Hello Myriam and Judith and all, 

Thought I would try again to register with site in link. Domain is being ofered for sale, has links to everything but pigeons. Mostly sales links.


Will look further afield. 

Larry 

Tacked on to post: 

Okay, found this: 

http://www.stadttauben-online.de/ 
(Note for Judy: Need to use Mozilla Firefox for Mac; Mac Safari web browser doesn't find page on server).

http://www.wildvogelhilfe.org/sonderbeitraege/stadttauben/taubenspecial.html 



Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Larry

Sorry, I made a mistake, it is:

http://www.stadttaubenhilfe.org/

Myriam

Is your German good? 

I always post in English there, my German is quite poor .

Myriam


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*German website "city-pigeon-help" (translation)stadttaubenhilfe.org*

Hello Myriam, Judy, and all,

*NO-NO*: The website stadttaubenhilfe.*com* is a website up for sale, and has many links foe selling anything and everything but no references to pigeons that I can see. 

*YES*: stadttaubenhilfe.*org* 

is a website for people interested in city pigeons. 

However, only 238 registered users. No registered users on-line. No guests on line (not even me?). 

Nice site, but perhaps a bit more limited than pigeon-life.net. 
unless you speak only German.

Ned to use *Mozilla Firefox browser for Mac*, if you use Mac SX. Doesn't support safari. Probably some things not web-standards-compliant.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon people near Wiesbaden*

Hello Judy,

These people might be willin to help, or provide info. It is a site for pigeons for wedding (_Hochzeit_) release. You never know. They won't want a feral pigeon to mix with theirs because of possible infections, but they may know about med resources, etc. Maybe they speak English, maybe not.

http://www.hochzeitstauben-wiesbaden.de/

Telefon
0611-22426
FAX
0611-22294
Postadresse
Gasthaus "Zum Taunusblick"
Veilchenweg 1
65199 Wiesbaden 

Found it by Googling "tauben wiesbaden"

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*thank you*

I guess I will try to contact that wedding release person. I will also try searching for people near mainz, or oppenheim. Thank you for the german word for 'pigeon'
I hope they have an email adress listed. I don't fancy calling them and the first thing out of my mouth is "do you speak english?" email seems a little more impersonal than a phonecall. in this case, impersonal is a good thing. i feel like such a shmuck not knowing much of the language.

anyway

her poop seems a bit more solid today. -?-

when i clean her cage out, i will take the soiled paper and attempted to photo it with the imbeded camrea in my laptop.

she seems restless, i can understand. i have her in a large rabbit/guinea pig cage i'm borrowing, and i have a plate of seed, a small stool in there for her to hide under and jump on, and a water container. i can hear her thumping around in there. does that mean she's feling ok? or that she's mad as heck i have her in a cage, and she's feeling under the weather?

is it appropriate to let her out of the cage for exersize? or is that a -bad- idea? probably i will have a sick pigeon way on top of my fridge, and i wont be able to get her to medicate her....

i just wanna make her comfortable and happy while she's in my care.

i have a few errends to run then i will try to contact some of these local pigeon folk.

thanks again
-judi


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Judy

I emailed and spoke on the phone with a few members of Stadttaubenhilfe.org, and they were going to find out if anybody near you (Wiesbaden?) could help you for the meds.
I am expecting an email with info where or how to purchase meds, but it is obvious that you first have to find out what is wrong with your pigeon.
Anyway, BAYTRIL never hurted any pigeon and works well with whatever an infection would be present in the birds body.
If she sneezes a lot I would think about ornithosis, and I would prefer doxycycline, but I don't know the brandname in Germany. Maybe I will find out in the expected email.
I'll let you know as soon as there is any helpfull news.
If you ever are concerned with adoption for your pigeon, I am sure we will find help for transport, I could adopt him/her. I am sure about transport from Cologne to me, in Belgium, and we could look for help for the section Wiesbaden-Cologne.
I have a large pigeon shelter on the quiet countryside in the center of Belgium. Many German city pigeons and unwanted homers liver here happily.
Myriam


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re Wiesbaden pigeon needing help*

Hello Judy and Myrpalom and all

My stadttaubenhilfe.org account activated today, so I can now view threads and post. 
Account user ID is LarryC. 

The Wiesbaden people who do pigeon releases for weddings are most probably busy today, a Saturday afternoon. May try to contact them later by phone, since I and my wife Hilde can speak German, she better than I. 

Very busy here today with Wieteke and recent non-flying female rescue Osk-gurr. Much happening. 

Hilde knows someone in Wiesbaden who could receive a package at their address, as opposed to using Judy's on-base military address. Dealing with these people can be complicated at times, she says. 

Maybe someone else reading this post could advise as to whether a package mailed from inside Germany to an American base in Germany, using a U.S. military mailing address, would first be routed to the US and then back to Germany (taking too long), or would the handling all take place within Germany. 

Judy, _Taube_, German for pigeon, is pronounced Tow-beh (as in "ouch!" or "how," and beh, softly, as in "heh," not an "e" as in "see" or "bee." 

The pigeon sounds restless. Will wait to hear from Judy, here or by phone or by e-mail. 

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Thank you*

I appriciate the help.

Is it appropriate to treat the bird for several conditions? it seems to me, from the bit of research i've done, it could be a parasite, bacterial, or protazoan. is there harm in treating her for differnt ailments?

-Judi


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

For the protozoaan (I suppose you mean Trichmonas or canker) you first give her Spartrix and after that Baytril or Synulox for the bacteriel infection. I could mail you those meds, I suppose it will take 3 or 4 days befor you get them by mail.
You can also call Sabine Brunelli in Köln if you have more questions, she speaks English, here is what she wrote me:

*"My telephone-numbers: 02247-923067 or 0172-2684849 (cell-phone / mobil / handy). She can leave a message at my mail-box, I will call back. She can reach me today after 17.00 h."*
Myriam


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re meds for Wiesbaden pigeon*

From PM, so others are up-to-date:

Judy, 
It would be a package (Päckchen, little package); would have to be mailed Monday A.M. probably. I will see if Hilde can get their phone number from her friend Maria (sometimes "problematic" or "make things complicated" sister-in-law of Maria. Maria may not encourage it, Will have to see). 

Spartrix can get from pet shops, for canker, I'll mail you some of that too. I will try wedding release people now. Will need you phone number for when meds arrive. Maybe package in post sooner if I can calculate weights postage size etc. 

Did you photo poops? Angle your laptop lid towards keyboard, use PhotoBooth, or iPhoto, (I have MacBookPro 2.16gH hard drive from last August). Don't have iChat set up or .Mac account. Have DSL. 

Bird under stress can have funny out of the ordinary poops, without severe illness (don't even we humans have that?). 

Did you check with someone on base about postal address? 

Til later.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Help in Wiesbaden!!*

Hello Judy and Myrpalom and others,

I just now got off the phone (7:15 P.M. Saturday evening, or 19:15) with the Vorsitzender (the one who sits in front, or chief representative) der (of the) (Wiesbaden?) Tauben-Verein (the pigeon club). 
Hr. Kluter.

He speaks little or no English, same with the his wife or the lady who first aswered the phone. 

My impression is that they run or own a ""Gasthaus" (guest house, like a hotel).

He said bring the pigeon by and he'll take a look at it. I sked if he could help out with meds, that Judy could pay for them, and he said sure, he was the Vorsitzender....

Tonight is schlecht, or bad (I think they are busy serving meals, because I heard the woman in the background say she had no time, before he picked up the phone).

Bring the pigeon to him tomorrow around 5 or 6 PM and he will take a look at it.

(I would also recommend taking poop samples on paper).

I once put some fresh poop in a sandwch bag so it wold stay "fresh" and not dry out, and the vet found lots of cocci -- coccidiosis -- in a microscopic exam. 

Hr. Kluter
Gasthaus Zum Taunusblick (with a scenic view of the Taunus Mountains)

Telefon
0611-22426
FAX
0611-22294
Postadresse
Gasthaus "Zum Taunusblick"
Veilchenweg 1
65199 Wiesbaden

http://www.hochzeitstauben-wiesbaden.de/


Maybe I will be available by phone around that time for translation between you two, if necessary.

Can you meet him then, Judy? 

(Apple Mac OSX Tip: type his address into Address Book in Mac OSX, double-click on the address designation which sas "home," "work," and so on. At the bottom of the menu you will see "change address format." Choose that, select Germany. Postal code is listed before city or town in Germany postal address formats. Then double-click on the address, and MapQuest will show you the location, and the route to travel. You can also go to ADAC.de (German auto club corresponding to AAA) for ther same thing, but results may be in German. Maybe you can also select language at adac.de. ADAC has current traffic and construction planniing and detour routes accessible on-line.

19:40. I see on their website that they are about *50 kilometers from Wiesbaden*. But probably well worth the trip for expert advice, and maybe have a nice meal there also. They can be reached by phone Sundays between 14:00 and 22:00 (from website home page). 

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*I suppose I can meet with him.*

Did you speak much engligh to him?

I will mapquest the address for directions. Maye it's 50 Km in my direction, lol, wouldn't that be nice?

Do I need to RSVP with this man? should I? or just show up...

Thank you muchly.

-Judi


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Judy, 

Didn't even try any English with him. I find one out of three Germans speaks enough English to get by on. I can try to be home at theat time (need to do some stuff with my pigeos, somewhere else).

So, if you had a cell phone, or if he called me (and I called him back) I could interpret back and forth, perhaps with my wife helping out (our phone has intercom function, so several can listen and talk simultaneously at our end).

Don't worry about the English. It will work out. Someone in te restaurant will be able to help, I'm sure. There's alwas someone around - in public -- who knows some English. 

Be prepared to write down, or have him write down, terms you don't understand. I can always call him back aldso to clarify.

I just sent you an e-mail re meds i have. Ask your husband should I send (re-used) 2 ml syringe (without needle), type used for allergy shots (1 teaspoon = 15 ml). He probably has access to used ones. I wash mine. Used it also for filling ink cartridges -- long time ago. Doesn't need to be too sterile (my opinion only). Our stomachs and mouths are pretty dirty. 


P.S. Found Gambakokzid package, against coccidiosis).

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*poop photos*

oh the joys of my life..

The photo came out a bit brown, imagine this a bit more on the green side.

the little seeds are from her useing the plate i put in there with food as a trampaleen. they stuck to the poop. she didn't pass those through undigested.

no yellow though today.

a few seem formed a bit better, others not so much..

opinions?
-Judi


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Judy,

Verified address (Das Telefonbuch, dastelefonbuch.de): 
Hr. Manfred Klüter (Klueter)

Gasthaus Zum Taunusblick

Veilchenweg 1

65201 Wiesbaden

(not 65199 as listed at website. Maybe postal code changes, and website left unchanged). 

Phone for both the business (Gasthaus) and private individual (Manfred Klüter -- pronounced as in I haven't a clue) -- and the wedding/celebration pigeon release business match for all three.

I said your name, and mine, but don't think it mattered to him. You show up, fine. You don't fine. or should it matter too much. Nice looking restaurant or dining room in website photo.

Address seems a couple of miles fom Wiesbaden city center. Very close to you. 

His website shows a view of his backyard lofts. Nice. 

He might even get some business from Americans. Who knows?

Poops look fine to me. Others may disagree. I see all kinds from "healthy" ferals. Size seems okay for a feral pigeon, maybe smallish. Some posters set coin or ruler in photo for size reference, maybe hard to do with holding paper at slant. White is urates, salts, which is good. 

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*so...then?*

You seem to think that the poo look ok? Small, but ok? Should I bother this guy at all?
-Judi


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re poops*

Hello Judy

The "white-ness" of the paper seems to have a magenta or purplish cast. Putting the photo into a photo program and deducting some red and blue might then give a proper white backgrounsd to te paper, but might also affect the color of thepoops. Havenn't done much photo color temp adjusting, not enough experience at that, so don't trust my reading the results.

Is the paper under the poops re-cycled paper (more grayish)? 

Anyway, if the poops hsow dark (boiled) spinach green color, almost blackish, then those are "bile strings" (?) and not the best poops.

I was hopng someone else would comment on the poop pictures. I see all kinds of poops from the ferals, but can't match them to individual birds and thus establish cause and effect. 

I have paying attention to poops for 3 years, fom a few birds, while others here have many more years' experience and have handled many more pigeons, and I quickly shut my mouth and put my hand down when the experts speak, and only try to state what I have seen or think I have seen.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Judy, 


> Should I bother this guy at all?


The guy *is* an expert (from what he has told me). One look, one lift of the pigeon, and he could tell you loads about the bird. Other than that, you would need a microscopic exam of poops, or blood tests, to tell much more about the bird than he could. A short visit might save you hours of grief and worry, and a good feling about a quick release. 

Unless it really inconveniences you (like a two hour auto trip or something similar), I would do it. 

He might even know someone who could come to your school to show some pigeons to the kids, and change their viewpoint. from my own experience, many people see pigeons differently when they get up lcose to one, and the pigeon doesn't attack them or such. Many people talked to me on the street when i walked around with Pidgiepoo sitting on my shoulder, and expressed admiration. There were a few looks of disapproval, perhaps, but nothing extreme. 

You're not going to get all this arranged with him speaking only German and you only English, but I can perhaps call him after your visit to clarify, follow up on whatever statements he told you, thank him for his help. maybe a few white pigeon wedding or celebration releases from the base (if permitted) or from somewhere nearby off base, might help change opinons.

I know pilots don't encourage birds to hang around airfields and light paths. (I had a brother-in-law who was a USAF bomber pilot, flying out of England to the Red Curtain and getting microwaved by their radars as a thank-you, on a daily basis in the 1980s. He now flies for Fed-Ex (and my sister, his first wife, is deceased). 

It seems the trend is developing that almost every wedding have its obligatory white pigeon release. Almost as obligatory as the white wedding dress for the bride.

Stupid joke, hope I'm not banned from the website by the female powers-that-be, but it made even my wife laugh, so here goes:

Why does a bride wear white? So she matches the appliances. -- (source unknown).

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I can't see anything specifically wrong with the poops. My first thought had been that it might be a little blood ring that had bled out in the paper around them but given that the color is off, it can't be certain. If it were, you'd more likely suspect some internal injury but hopefully not mortal. Otherwise, at least it is poop coming out. Poops sometimes look different due to diet factors. Just can't tell, here.

Pidgey


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Something came up*

and i was unable to go see that gentleman. i feel kinda bad. been gone all afternoon, just got back here at 10:00 pm =\

the ring is not blood, i promise. but it does seem dark greenish. it changes color. one will be nuty brown, one will be greenish, one firm, one watery, one large, one small.

so, yeah. i donno, she seems healthy. been thinking about just releasing her, i donno...

-Judi


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Ready to fly?*

Judy,

No problem. Was in bed early, stiff neck, headache. Got up at midnight to check something. 

Pidgey looked at poop photos (see post); inconclusive. Does your Apple MacBook, which you said has the built-in camera, have the screen which turns totally white and performs a flash function when taking a snapshot in PhotoBooth? Holding the laptop upside down, with the lid parallel to the (level table) surface, and the camera lens facing the surface also, and the paper with poop specimens laying flat on the table, should provide you with a flat, even, neutral lighting (all the red blue and green LEDs go on at once over the whole area of the screen for a moment). 

The paper in the photos looked kinda grayish rather thsan white, with a magenta hue or tint, whatever the proper term is.

In the past, when I took photos of my wife's art, I would use the first film frame to shoot a color chart (red, blue, yellow, green, white, black, magenta, cyan) for comparison. Every printer, CRT screen, LED screen, digital camera software, will have its own peculiar idiosycratic color interpretation and representation peculiarities or properties. Usually not so important to pay attention to in normal situations, but if a lady orders a dress with a cetain color, for example, the interpretation of the colors in the catalog, camera, printer, dress factory, dye suppliers, fabric suppliers, camera flashes, better give useful results.

So, I played with one of the photos in Mac OSX PhotoShop, looked at the color histogram which gives a spectrographic analysis of the photo's color properties, fiddled with the slide adjustments for hue, saturaton, contrast, and such, got the paper under the poops in the photo to look whitish, decided I didn't know what I was doing, and gave up. Didn't see any red durng all of this to indicate blood, although the histogram would of course show the presence of red to some degree. The green ranged from olive green to almost black. 

So, enough of poops. Stress can affect poops. If I turn a corner and run into a ten-foot-tall Kodiak bear, I'll crap in my pants, and the defense mechanism will be quite normal for that circumstance. If I do the same when I notice in a shop window that you get ten percent off if you buy two dozen donuts, then something is off a bit. A pigeon facing solitary confinement for her near future, after being thumped with a baskeball, with a lusty mate waiting only a while for her, things totally out of her control, should exhibit unusual (different from the routine) digestive activity.

Of course, you know all this. I like to see if I can be somewhat coherent in my thought processes, when I re-read what i have written. I often edit and revise. 

My memory's not what it used to be. Also, my memory's not what it used to be.

(Sent to me by my sister yesterday. Source unknown).

I don't have a real good (sensitive) feel or appreciation of what the pigeon's status is. 

You are the person on the scene. Go by your instincts, intuition. You might be right, or you might be proved wrong.

If you could observe the pigeon without her knowing it, you might lok for this:

If the pigeon feels danger looms, feels threatened, or feels she is being watched by something which may feel threatening to her, she may have her feathers held close to her body, look sleek, speedy, ready to make a dash for it. 

If she is fluffed up, as if she is trying to conserve body heat, looks tired, listless, lethargic, dull-eyed, non-caring, somewhat unresponsive, even though she has had time to rest in peace and recover and eat and drink sufficiently, then she may still be ill.

If she has an unusual posture for the circumstances, then probe further. 

If she is on a more or less flat surface (not having to support herself on a tree limb, gripping the limb, and keeping her tail tucked under her for balance and uneven weight distributuion compensation,
if,
she has her tail tucked under her, or looks like she would like to tuck it under her, has the posture of a lobster ready to propel itself rearward (which may be forwards, not backwards, for a lobster when it uses its tail -- I know I'm making it complicated, according to my wife -- but if it's tail and lower upper back appear roundish, then it may be showing a symptom of abdominal stress or pain. 

I've seen the lobster-tail posture when a bird is merely gripping a tree limb. 

I've seen the fluffed-up feather look at times when a pigeon was merely relaxing.

I guess you have to kind of put yourself inside the bird's feathers, think like a pigeon, feel how you would look if you had a tummy ache, a head-ache, were over-tired, and intuit if the pigoen is feeling good.

I suppose if the pigeon could readily fly and you were unable to catch it, that would be a good sign. If you could all-too-easily catch it (assuming you are not a praying mantis, and have not the reflexes and responses of one), that would be a good sign. 

If the pigeon looks fed up with you and disgusted with the whole business, that would be a good sign.

It seems to me that you feel the pigeon is ready to go. If you feel that maybe you've gone a bit overboard on the whole project, and are getting tired of the whole business, the pigeon's probably not that bad off. If you've bitten your nails, lost sleep, need antacids, can't sleep, still can't sleep, agonize some more, wonder if you're suffering more than the pigeon, then the pigeon's probably still in need of care. 

I am going to send you a package anyway, of some emergency stuff to have on hand. Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared. Cost is negligible. If I have a lifetime supply of something, with an expiration date attached, why hoard it? At least that is what a reasonable pigeon would probably say, if only we could understand them.

My pigeon Wieteke made unusual efforts to definitely communicate with me several times the past cople of days, and has taken some unusual steps to counter-act some of my usual behavior and treatment with him. He definitely got my attention and indicated his intended actons, so that I wouldn't do my usual, stupid, incomprehensible, maddeniing-to-him, totally illogical routine actions.

Sometimes getting an impromptu, off-the-cuff, gut reaction from someone not too involved, a "non-expert," can be very useful. (From your husband, kids if you have them, neighbor, whatever). "You think she looks sick?" "Nah." Or, "seems she holds herself a bit funny." "Really? I didn't see that. Thanks." Then you re-consider whether their opinion is worth a hoot. But sometmes something useful is discovered. 

I will probably call Herr Klüter (Klueter) to let him know that something came up, that you were unable to make it, and to thank him for his patience and understanding. (Monday's he's not open for business). Don't feel bad. The pigeon has done enough of that already. 

Best of luck,

Larry


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*just an update*

a couple of things. i got the meds in the mail which larry sent. Inara the pigeon -seems-...ok. I guess, i donno. I've let her out and about my kitchen quite a few times. (i pigeon proofed it first.) she seemed quite happy to fly around my kitchen and perch on the fridge.

Her droppings continued to be somewhat small, and dark green. it changes through the day though. could be dark green, could be brown. also, she doens't eat a -whole- lot. other than that i'm not seeing any other signs of illness.

after reading around, several times i found research that said green droppings and not eating much was a sign of cocci. so, i'm taking an educational guess, and giving her the appropriate dosage of co-trim. i don't want to put too many things in her system.

my first try was mixing it with food, but inara promptly tossed that up. mixed it with water today, and she kept it down

it may be too early to tell, but today i -thought- her droppings looked much better, and she seemed much perkier.

Also, i thought it was interesting to mention a parent of one the children i care for gave me a baby pigeon which she told me she found abandonded. she knew i liked pigeons, and brought it to me, not knowing what else to do with it. 

the baby is doing fine. the wealth of information on this site has made it easy to take care of the little bugger. had it for some time now. can't remember when i posted last.

so, i'm going to try this co-trim thing through it's course. i located a vet which sees birds, somewhat far away, but since inara is eating, drinking, and looking active and happy enough perched around my kitchen, i'm not going to take her. but if things go down hill from here, i will take her to see this vet.

not sure how anyone else feels about all this. i'm feeling somewhat more optimistic about the whole situation. we'll shall see what happens.

thank you for your time folks
-Judi


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Judi,
glad Inara seems to be doing ok and seems happy.
It is not uncommon for them to have coccidia, actually many ferals are carriers and at times of stress those parasites multiply. You should see improvement in her droppings within a day or two after treatment and if she starts eating all should be ok.

Glad the baby is doing good too.
Thank you for helping those two birds.

Reti


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*Inara has been released.*

Let her go not that long ago after finishing the treatment. I felt i had her for quite a while, and she seemed ready to go.
I saw her at the center. She's got herself a new boyfriend (as her old boyfriend got himself a new girl in the time i had inara)
So i'm happy for her.

back to feeding simon. ( the rescuse baby I got at the vet)

thank you for your help folks. i appriciated it

-judi


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for the update. You did great nursing her back to health.
Good luck with the little one.

Reti


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