# Blood in poops



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Blackie, the sweet pigeon in my hand feeding video, is unwell.

I noticed that she was fluffed up and sleeping on her perch yesterday so I brought her in and put her under a heat lamp. I also wormed her as she has had roundworm in the past.

Her poops are scanty, formed but blood stained, at one point the stain had gone through the towel.

I checked Chevita, but they only refer to bloody diarrhea and I have noticed that they only provide diagnostics for conditions that match the remedy that they produce. If they don't have a remedy the condition is not listed.

I have given Blackie appertex this morning and am considering a course of Baytril in case she has salmonellosis (mice are a perpetual problem).

I gave her a pot of seed which has been scattered around the cage, so she has an appetite. Her throat is clear.

Blackie is 6 and a half years old and barren. She was one of my first PMV rescues. She doesn't have a mate now. She doesn't fly free and there has only been one new addition to the aviary (the injured racer that John found which has been quarantined and joined the aviary on Sunday)

I don't want to start a long course of medication until I have considered all possibilities, so suggestions on the cause will be welcome.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, from what I've learned recently from Dr.April barren hens havea high incidence of developing tumors of the reproductive tract.
My friend's hen who was diagnosed with leiomyosarcoma is seven and has never laid an egg.

Is the blood bright red or does it look like it comes from higher up (intestines), darker in color, maybe partially digested?

You can check out her cloaca, introduce a q-tib, gently and see if it stains with blood.
Also check if you feel any swellings, masses, etc.

I am not saying this it, but since it seems to be not that uncommon it's good to rule the presence of any masses out first before you start any lengthly courses of antibiotics.

Reti


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Cynthia,

I am sorry very sorry to hear Blackie is not feeling well, she seems like such a lovely bird in your hand feeding video.

The most common causes as you probably know are, worms, Coccidiosis and infection. You have treated her for worms and the Appertex will treat for possible Coccidiosis. The ideal thing would be to have her droppings tested to see if a diagnosis could be made this way. In the mean time however, I would consider possibly starting her on Baytril in case it is an infection before it progresses too far.

I hope this helps a little and I hope she recovers soon,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Is it "frank blood" or "occult blood"? That is, is it in bright little separate red spots like regular blood would look or is it through & through either the feces or the urates? If you can figure out whether it's coming from the kidneys, the oviduct or the intestines, it'd be a big help. It's tough, I know, but that's your basic path. You and John have the scope and you can try separating the poop solids and studying just them. A blood cell has a particular look about it--a slightly clear oval with an oval nucleus.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you Reti and Pidgie.

The blood is reddish (not brigt red) and mixed with the poops.

I felt around for lumps as soon as I brought her in, there was nothing alarming there. I will test with q tips and discipline myself into tackling the microscope!

The incidence of tumours is a big worry, two of my hens are barren. 

Strangely they are the two that had roundworms a year or so ago,

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Cynthia, I am really sad that Blackie is not doing well.

Of the birds we have had that bled it was caused by either passing an egg (or, not passing one immediately), coccidiosis, or worms.

We have had two die from carcinoma. One, Gracie, did not pass any blood but her stomach became enlarged to the extent that when the vet tried to draw the fluid out to make her more comfortable, discovered that it was blood building up. Although a necropsy was not done, our vet said that in all the cases she has seen where blood built up like that it indicated cancer. She had seemed fine up to about a week before she died but then started being lethargic, had some problems with open beak breathing and sometimes appeared to not know where she was.

Our other bird was Frosty who just recently died. We had no indications of illness until the day before she passed away. A full necropsy showed adenocarcinoma. There was no bleeding or swelling.

Gracie, to our knowlege, never laid an egg during the time we had her (about 4 years) and Frosty became barren about 5 years ago. She had laid eggs for the first 2-3 years and raised two babies but none after that. Her daughter, ****** (who is the one I've mentioned with worms) laid a few eggs the first year or two but has since gone barren even tho she has had mates all this time. We are really concerned that ****** may either have cancer or may be precancerous and keep a close eye on her. ****** has never bled even when her worms were so prevalent.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Winter passed a tinge of blood when she was having her oviduct problems. It gave a pinkish stain to the mucus that accompanied the droppings. It wasn't in the solids. When I saw it, I went right to the scope for confirmation and it didn't take but a glance to see it.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

So sorry to hear about Blackie Cynthia.  
I hope you are able to find out what's going soon.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I had sort of hoped that Blackie's barrenness would protect her from dangerous situations like egg binding and egg peritonitis. It seems that either way the hens are at risk. 

Her poops have been so scanty there was not enough to prepare for the microscope, but one was white urates surrounded by pinkish fluid. I will have to take her to the vet for a proper examination.

She is a healthy weight for a small bird (317 gms) and is still feisty, but I have had to tube feed.

Although I wormed her she hasn't passed any dead worms. 

I also have started her on Baytril just in case it is e-coli or paratyphoid, if it is one of those then the sooner I can halt the damage the better.

One strange thing about Blackie when I found her as a fledgeling is that her throat was too narrow to swallow a pea. I raised her on tiny bits of wholemeal bread dipped in Complan (an invalid food that the RSPCA use to raise squabs) and it would take 3/4 of an hour to get enough into her.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Wow. Poor bird. She wouldn't have had any life at all without you. I get the sneaking suspicion from my vet that it's more frightening when they don't lay eggs than when they do.

It doesn't take much of the stuff to see what you're looking for. You don't want to do a fecal float for that--you just want to smear a tiny bit on a slide and cover it with a coverslip. If you don't have a coverslip, you can dry it down with a blowdryer (but avoid heating it--just dry it) and you can still see them if they're there (red blood cells). The coverslip's better and, come to think of it, you can use two slides since you're not running a 100x objective lens (that's the one for a 1000x mag when combined with a 10x eyepiece).

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Cynthia,

I'm sorry to hear about Blackie, I sure hope it is nothing serious and we will hope for the best. Please let us know the results of the exam asap.

Thank you for all your loving care you bestow on all needy pigeons.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Although I wormed her she hasn't passed any dead worms.
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia, 

I'm sorry to read about your beloved Blackie not being well. I know you must be besides yourself with worry.

Just a word on worms...thread worms or hair worms are very, very tiny; almost microscopic. You mightn't even see them expelled in the feces but these tiny buggers can do a lot more damage to the intestines than round worms do. What medication did you use to worm them? You might want to try a different medicine and one that tackles these types of worms as not all wormers kill this type.

I hope Blackie will be ok, and I certainly hope that it's not a problem related to her oviduct or cancer in some form.

Good luck with her!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Back from the vet*

The vet gave Blackie a thorough examination and couldn't feel any lumps or masses but is nevertheless concerned that it might be a tumour and wants to X-ray her under anaesthesia if she isn't better within a week. Euthanasia was mentioned.  

In the meantime he has put her on Metronidazole and has suggested that I also put her on Synulox if there is no improvement in 3 or 4 days.

The wormer that I used is Moxidectin Plus which treats capillaria.


Cynthia


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Cynthia, I'm so sorry to hear Blackie isn't well. The course of Baytril seems a good idea in case it is e-coli or paratyphoid. I hope it isn't something more serious, but in line with what Maggie and Reti said, I've had the experience of barren hens dying of cancer. We've had two that lost weight and developed abdominal swelling within months of ceasing to lay eggs. They both stopped laying relatively young. We didn't have necropsies done, but our vet strongly suspected cancer. But we also have a barren homer hen who is now five years old and seems to be fine. She has only laid two eggs in her entire life, in her first two years. Both eggs were small and misshapen. We believe she was born with some type of defect that prevents her from laying eggs. Has Blackie ever laid eggs, or did she stop? I have a friend with a little fantail that barely survived because her parents abandoned her, and she had to be hand-fed the rest of the way. She acts like a hen but has never laid an egg. Anyway, I hope the cause of Blackie's illness is something simple and treatable. 

We had an outbreak of something a month ago, perhaps e-coli? Several pigeons lost weight rapidly and became lethargic. Whatever it was, it responded to individual treatment with Baytril. The rest of the flock remained healthy.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Cathy,

Blackie is 6 and a half years old and has never laid an egg. My other barren hen used to lay then she passed some misshapen waxy lumps, which could have been misformed eggs or the contents of an abcess on the oviduct and never laid an egg again.

I weighed her last night and she is 317 gms, which is about average for a feral hen.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, how is Blackie getting on today with the Baytril and you feeding her, how are her droppings looking?

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Update*

I had put Blackie on Baytril but the vet suggested changing that to Metronidazole and adding Synulox if there was no improvement. I don't know why he suggested this but it reminded me that when my mother had an "ulcer" caused by helicobacter she was prescribed Amoxyclav, which is a human version of synulox, and Metronidazole.

I think that there has been an improvement. This morning I could feel seed in her crop and later on hear the "plink, plink, plink" of her eating.

I changed the lining in the carrier this morning and when I changed it this evening there was a single blood stain and a few green poops.

I am hoping that Brad was right and that the cause was capillaria. If they damaged the intestinal walls then the bleeding wouldn't stop immediately.

Another hopeful sign is that I got severely wing slapped when I was cleaning the carrier.

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

cyro51 said:


> Another hopeful sign is that I got severely wing slapped when I was cleaning the carrier.
> 
> Cynthia


Now that is a very good sign  
I love it when they do that, it means they're well.

Reti


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, thanks for the update, things sound like they are improving for Blackie. Please keep us informed.

Ron


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That all sounds encouraging. I would think the fact she's never laid an egg is better than a hen that did lay and stopped for unknown reasons. I've been wondering if the link between barren hens and cancer is that the cancer actually causes the barrenness?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I've been wondering if the link between barren hens and cancer is that the cancer actually causes the barrenness?


Actually even in humans who never have children the incidence of uterine, ovarian and breast cancer is much higher due to the constant hormone exposure (high estrogens) that favors the development of certain types of cancers of the reproductive tract.
During pregnancy although there are estrogens secreted there is also a higher lever of progesteron secretion and that is protective against those.
I would think the same happens in birds.
So, it is the barrreness that favours the cancer development.

Reti.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Cynthia,

I'm glad to hear te encouraging signs, please keep the updates coming.



That is very interesting Reti.

Thanks for sharing.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just winging in to add my support, hugs and healing thoughts for Blackie!

Your posts are sounding encouraging - especially about the wing slap! I wish all the best to Blackie and to you!!

I know you will keep us informed!

Love from
Shi & Mr. Squeaks


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Reti said:


> Actually even in humans who never have children the incidence of uterine, ovarian and breast cancer is much higher due to the constant hormone exposure (high estrogens) that favors the development of certain types of cancers of the reproductive tract.
> During pregnancy although there are estrogens secreted there is also a higher lever of progesteron secretion and that is protective against those.
> I would think the same happens in birds.
> So, it is the barrreness that favours the cancer development.
> ...


Thanks for clarifying, Reti.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi everyone,

Blackie has a clean lining to her cage three times a day so she started the night with a fresh white lining.

There was a single blood stained poop on the lining that we removed last thing at night, but her overnight poops have been clear. They were small and dark green but well formed.

She is still very aggressive towards me, but has lost some weight.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, I would continue doing as you are doing, but perhaps just increase her supplementation a bit to get her weight back up. Please continue to keep us informed.

Ron


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

THanks Ron, I have some Critical Care Formula which is for birds that cannot eat but can also be used as a supplement to normal food when they need to gain weight.

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Just another quick update. Blackie's overnight poops were blood free and as soon as I changed her papers this morning she left a nice, plump, healthy specimen for me!


Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sounding GREAT, Cynthia!

Hopefully, all the outpouring of love, caring and support from "this side" is helping!  

Continued love hugs scritches and healing thoughts for Blackie!

Shi


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, this is good news to hear.

Ron


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> Just another quick update.
> 
> *Blackie's overnight poops were blood free and as soon as I changed her papers this morning she left a nice, plump, healthy specimen for me!*
> 
> Cynthia


Way to go, Blackie!!  

Thanks for the wonderful update Cynthia.
Hope things continue to improve. 

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad she continues to improve.
Keep us updated, please.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Awesome, Cynthia!

Thank you for the wonderful, most excellent update.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That's great news Cynthia! My kids always laugh at me when I get excited about normal poops after a pigeon has been sick, but it's such a simple joy to see that as the bird recovers.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

pBlackie has requested that I tell you that she is aware of your good wishes and grateful for them.

She would also like some advice on what she can do to be released from her prison cell and return to the aviary!

Actually, only two of my pigeons have ever been sick, THis is Blackie's second or third period of hospitalisation and that isn't counting the period after I found her. That time she was so light that I couldn't even feel her weight on my hand. Her keel was razor sharp. But a woman passing by told me that I had picked up an Angel and I believe that to be true.

Cynthia


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Cynthia, to be on the safe side, I would keep her hospitalized for a few more days just to confirm things have corrected with Blackie and to get that little bit more weight on her.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Ron, I will keep her inside ay least until her course of antibiotics is finished, that way I can also keep an eye on her weight and her poops.

Poor Blackie doesn't have a mate to go back to, he was hijacked by another hen who also evicted Blackie from her nest/roost. Recently she has been sleeping in the flight area which has a roof but no sides to it. I tried to catch her and move her to the shelter but that disturbed the wood pigeons who started flying into things and risked breaking their necks.

Cynthia


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

So glad that Blackie seems to be improving! Nothing looks better than a healthy poop produced by a bird that has been sick! Sure hope she continues her recovery!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I seem to be going round in circles with Blackie. Her poops started to have blood in them again so I put her back on Metronidazole for a few days. Then the bleeding stopped but she went through a period of having very watery poops.

As watery poops and blood in poops can be a sign of e coli or salmonellosis I put her on Baytril. Now her poops are normal again and she is in the aviary during the day but she has lost weight and was down to 252 this morning.

Cynthia


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

What a frustrating mix of symptoms. Sure hope you can find something to help her soon!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

*Quick Update*

I brought Blackie in for the night after a couple of days in the aviary.

Her weight is back up 20 gms and her poops were good!

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Excellent update!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes, nice to hear this.

Thanks for the update Cynthia.

All the best,

Ron


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