# naval canker or "butt canker" - mods: consider making this a sticky?



## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

So, this little guys name is "hey Bert".... U gotta say it like Ernie from sesame street tho lol. Anyway, he had naval canker and I thought I'd share his recovery with u guys in case anyone runs across it. 
He is an accident bird. We thought the egg was replaced with a dummy but obviously it wasn't. The dad is my most aggressive, testosterone fueled bird. He will chew on my finger and never flies away. He always stands his ground, especially when I'm near "his" perch  he had never been a dad before, so he wasn't sure what to do with his new little family. He ended up killing the sibling the first day. This little guy made it about 2 weeks when he decided he was gonna beat him up. He chewed 2 holes in his back and caused damage to the naval. That is what invited the canker to take hold.

Still trying to upload pix it says low memory for some reason, I'll keep trying...... The pics are his naval canker, or "butt canker" as I've heard it referred to. FYI, if anyone ever runs into naval canker, its terrible. He was passing blood clots bigger than anything ive ever seen from even a human nose bleed and the canker ball grew to the size of a rubber bouncy ball.

Treatment - baytril to cure any infection from the initial injury.
Almost 3 weeks of metronidizol (at the advice of my neighbor vet who is also a pigeon guy). The canker ball eventually fell out and left a huge hole in his abdomen. I was deathly afraid his insides would fall out, but they didnt. The hole eventually shrunk and closed back up. Because of the gaping wound, it requires a super clean cage, I lined it with puppy pads, SUPER helpful when caring for sick or injured pigeons. Make mental note of thst.... Theyre a god sent. Clean up takes just seconds to change the pads and spray down with disinfectant.

He is now a very happy little guy, he will follow the dogs and even loves riding around on my roomba lol. He is aggressive like his dad and will chew on my finger any chance he gets. And he's a total little red seed junkie. He will only eat the little red seeds in the mix. He tosses everything else out and squeaks as if he is starving. Not quite sure what I'm going to do about that one... Wait him out or let it happen for now until he goes back in with his friends. He's a total spoiled brat! But I love him.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/abdominal-umbilical-hernia-74254.html
You can see the pix here. Too bad I can't post pix right now or I'd post one of him looking healthy. Also BTW, their face feathers don't grow in properly at first with naval canker. He is just now getting rid of his pin feathers and he is almost 2 months old.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

the puppy pad idea is great, I have used to also. Im glad the treatment regime worked out. the parent birds are carriers the canker.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

What does carring mean? I did treat my flock just in case any of the other birds had canker. I checked the mouths and felt the crops on all my birds and didn't see anything, so the treatment was precautionary.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Carriers.. They are giving it through their crop milk which can get on/ into soft membrane areas . Personally I would not breed birds that have passed it on, but that's hard to know unless it shows up clinically.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, he was an accident. We had so many eggs that we just missed these 2 when we were replacing with fake eggs :/

Anyway, I'm back with a little issue. Or a big issue I really don't know. His naval canker wound was looking really good, all healed up. He had loads of energy and was flying all over the place when I'd give him some out of the cage time. So I thought he seemed healthy enough to go back in the loft.

The only thing I noticed while in the house is that he seemed to favor the little seeds, one kind in particular. He literally emptied the bowl while sorting through them and picked out every single one of his favorites. I hand fed him a few times because I wanted him to get the feeling of the bigger seeds on his tongue so maybe he would know what the bigger ones felt like or that they were in fact food. I didn't think too much about it though. He seemed just slightly light, which I attributed to him being picky and running out of his favorite.

Anyway, so I put him in with the others wednesday or Thursday. He hasn't really been eating that I've noticed. So today I took him out to hand feed him a little in case he just hasn't really meshed with the flock yet and is just shy. We are all he knows, and indoors at that. So I chalked it up to stress. About an hour or 2 later, I fed everyone else. He didn't join in. He sat on a perch, squinted his eyes a little bit, smacked his beak a few times (like people smack their lips) and then shook his head violently and threw up seed from his crop. 

I took him back in and set the cage back up, gave him food and water and he totally snarfed down the water. Like he drank ALOT. He is also eager to eat from my hand (only the little seed though).

Could it be that he's just not adjusting well? I've had him inside for like 20 minutes and he has drunk water and eaten. But why the throwing up and losing weight?

Oh, all the other birds have been treated for canker just in case and they are eating and drinking normal.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He will pick up the bigger seeds, but he just drops them. He doesn't throw them behind him, just drops them as if saying "I thought I was gonna try something different but no". Once in a while he will drop his favorite seed, but its rare.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

All pigeons carry trich and any kind of stress, even raising young can cause the trich to multiply, and bring on an outbreak of canker. That is why many breeders treat for canker before breeding. Pigeons aren't actually carriers of canker. Most carry trich and therefore do have the potential to pass it on to their babies. As long as they have been treated, they should be fine.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He seems to not be doing well now  I really thought we treated him. His poop is dark hunter green when spread out on a white paper. That confirms for me that he hasn't been eating. I have watched him eat the little seeds though, like in the last 5 minutes. So he IS eating, just not nearly enough. I've gone back to hand feeding, but he's passed a few whole seeds. This tells me he's got a digestive problem of some sort. I've never dealt with digestion problems, but I've put him back on probiotics and I'm considering switching to baby bird formula. Maybe it will be easier to digest?

He is much less active today. He just lays in an awkward position with his wings to his side but asymmetrically.

About 2 months ago when I first began treating him, he was passing HUGE blood clots. Like bigger than anything I've seen come from a human nose bleed. He got better and was super happy and active and I'm not sure what happened since I put him back in with my healthy birds. Everyone else is thriving but as soon as he went back with his friends, he took a turn for the worse.

Any thoughts? Am I right to give probiotics and switch to baby formula? Possibly in addition to a little seed?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Maybe worms? I have a pigeon with a taenia (diagnosed by lab test) and she sometimes passes blood in droppings. I medicated her several times but the taenia survived, nevertheless, it might have died today as the aspect of droppings is changing toward normal.

Is true almost every baby has tricho, but blood in droppings is not caused by this. Often, maybe most of the times, the pigeons doesn't suffer of a single disease.


Coccidia too (according to some sites) may cause bloody diarrhea, but not sure if clots.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Squeaker said:


> Well, he was an accident. We had so many eggs that we just missed these 2 when we were replacing with fake eggs :/
> 
> Anyway, I'm back with a little issue. Or a big issue I really don't know. His naval canker wound was looking really good, all healed up. He had loads of energy and was flying all over the place when I'd give him some out of the cage time. So I thought he seemed healthy enough to go back in the loft.
> 
> ...



I would treat for canker again. Eating very little and drinking a lot of water is normal for canker. Also vomiting is another symptom of canker. You will have to hand feed. I would use the formula for now.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Eating very little and drinking a lot of water is normal for canker. Also vomiting is another symptom of canker. You will have to hand feed. I would use the formula for now.


Same symptoms appear in so many other diseases, many of them non-pathogen. Vomiting is most characteristic for young bird disease, e.g.

On the bottom of this page is a case with a budgerigar that was vomiting and finally was established he had an adenocarcinoma of the proventriculus, a cancerous tumor:

http://www.birdclinic.net/avian2.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it may happen with other things as well, but it is very common with canker. Also the not eating much but drinking a lot.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He only seemed to drink like that as soon as I put him back inside. Perhaps he was being chased away from the water by other birds and was drlehydrated? It has since gone back to normal. Also he didn't ha e crop canker or oral canker. It was localized to the naval area.

I'm leery to put him on another round of canker med because i had to do a very aggressive treatment to get the canker ball to shrink. I know it can cause organ damage. Could that be what's causing his issues? Is that even repairable? I treated for about 2.5 weeks at the advice of my vet because it was either treat for a long time or he would die. The bleeding came before treatment though.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Hmmmm, I think I may have figured it out. I think it could be candidiasis as a result of his weakened and underdeveloped immune system. I think I may start nystatin tomorrow morning. He mimics these symptoms pretty closely http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=3090


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

There are lot of things that can cause those symptoms.

Candidiasis is manifesting through slow or blocked crop. Sometimes, white growth appear on tongue and throat, which may be mistaken for canker. Also there is a form of Candidiasis located in respiratory system, when bird is manifesting by sneezing and then coughing.

If is only in crop, Nystatin is enough. If is that white growth or respiratory Candidiasis, 1-3 mg of Fluconazole are necessary. I saw the white growth falling down after the first Fluconazole administration in two pigeons.

Candida usually appears as a secondary phenomenon, accompanying a more serious illness. Remember that very often the bird doesn't suffer of a single disease.

Also, every infectious disease has multiple strains, each one acting as a different disease. For example, I have a pigeon suffering of two types of pox.

Jumping to the conclusion he has Candidiasis without seeing a clear, unmistakable sign, is pretty much wrong. Candidiasis doesn't make the bird stop eating, except if it blockes the crop.

Continue to feed him all the neccessary of food, as for disease, if you can't do lab tests for him, try to rule out each disease one by one.

I would start by giving one or two lincospectin injections (one / day). If is a bacterial problem (which often causes loss of appetite), the bird will start eating after the second or even after the first injection.

If doesn't respond to antibitiotics, next day I would deworm him, if is not too weak. Deworming needs only one or two medicine administrations and you see the results soon: either bird regain appetite and vigour, either not, which means were not the worms the cause. If is canker that caused the problem, it might have disturbed / destroyed the intestine's mucosa and even if you kill the trichomonas, the damage of the intestine remain and will take some time to heal and function normally. durng this period is advisable to give only liquid food, like Kaytee or grinded seeds mixed with water.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

OK, so, to update this thread after speaking with another PT member......

This bird was born around july 3rd. I do have nystatin to treat him for candidiasis, but it was reccomended to not use it because he is young and just use acv and probiotics on alternating days.

He was successfully treated for naval canker as well as passing HUGE blood clots prior to treatment. Now the candidiasis is his main hurdle.

Opinions?


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

AndrieS, I appreciate the recommendations and info, although I'm not sure I wanna just start giving him bacterial injections and worming meds just because. He is young and i dont want to completely overload his system this early on. I may start with probiotics and acv for a few days and see if anything improves.

I believe its candidia because he was doing fine, seemed completely healthy until I put him in with the flock. I believe the stress of being somewhere new and possibly some birds picking on him for being new could have triggered it. His health began to decline only after putting him back in the loft. All my other birds are happy and healthy, so he didn't catch anything from them. Other than the few days he spent with the flock, he's otherwise lived isolated from the other birds.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

His crop was empty a couple hours ago and now it had a little seed in it! That's improvement.  not out of the woods by any means, but the fact that he ate on his own is encouraging.

I had given some nystatin just before another member reccomended just giving acv and probiotics. So I think I may continue with the nystatin & see how it goes


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Squeaker said:


> I wanna just start giving him bacterial injections and worming meds just because. He is young and i dont want to completely overload his system this early on. I may start with probiotics and acv for a few days and see if anything improves.


Yes, that's true. Probiotics should be given permanently, as well as vitamins.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Squeaker said:


> OK, so, to update this thread after speaking with another PT member......
> 
> This bird was born around july 3rd. I do have nystatin to treat him for candidiasis, but it was reccomended to not use it because he is young and just use acv and probiotics on alternating days.
> 
> ...


Nystatin is not very toxic as is not entering the blood system, it's only treating the mucosa of the digestive system. For the same reason, is not fit for treating systemic Candida infections.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

AndreiS said:


> Nystatin is not very toxic as is not entering the blood system, it's only treating the mucosa of the digestive system. For the same reason, is not fit for treating systemic Candida infections.


Hrmmm.... Well I do suspect he has some in his crop. His crop seems thick & I really gotta feel around for seed. This does seem to be working. He's eaten more this morning. I'm hoping whatever the nystatin doesn't catch, the acv and probiotics will. He is getting more energy by the minute too. He's pissed that I'm keeping him in the cage (for safety reasons) he keeps flying onto the kitchen stove burners. For some reason he finds them interesting 

I've got an odd question... He seems to be spending ALOT of time on one leg. I know its normal for them to stand on one leg when relaxed, but literally all day seems a bit odd. He never used to do this, just in the last few days.. Could it be that he's finally starting to feel better? Could it ever be a bad thing or a sign of something else if they spend all day on one foot? I feel like its a silly question, but its out of character for him


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*He is cold, he is not feeling well and seeking warmth.

If the bird is fluffed and on one leg, he is sleepy, and you need to keep the bird warm, on a heating pad, and keep up the hand feeding when crop is empty.



*


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Keep him away from kitchen, there are some things there that can kill him, like heated non-stick frying pans (the gas they release).


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

He's not actually in the kitchen, he just enjoys flying into the kitchen. I was giving him out of the cage time when he wasn't flying so much. Now he's cage bound because he is getting more active.

My house is 75, is that cold? My regular birds stay outside in the winter (granted, its California winter, but still winter none the less). He's not fluffed up or sleeping when he does it. Feathers lay flat and he looks around normally. Seems strange, but I'll throw the heating pad in just in case.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Actually, scratch that. My house is currently 80 degrees. Forgot to turn the ac on this morning


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Squeaker said:


> My house is 75, is that cold? My regular birds stay outside in the winter (granted, its California winter, but still winter none the less). He's not fluffed up or sleeping when he does it. Feathers lay flat and he looks around normally. Seems strange, but I'll throw the heating pad in just in case.


No matter how warm your house is, he needs a heat source next to him and to be in a box or something that would him away of air drafts. This is the most important thing in saving his life.


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Ahh I see. I'll put a bed sheet on 3 sides too then to reduce draft but still let light in


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## Squeaker (Aug 9, 2012)

Update time:
This little guy is back with a vengeance! His appetite is back, instead of only eating the tiny red colored seeds, he is now eating many more kinds in the mix. Still doesn't like the corn or pea seeds, but in time I suppose. The nystatin thinned his crop wall and his poo is getting less and less watery every day. He has so much activity that I had to put a little rubber band on a couple flight feathers to discourage him from flying into a window. I didn't want to clip his wings because he will eventually go back into the loft.

The main issue I'm having right now is behavioral. He has a nasty attitude (not surprising, his dad is ornery too) but this little guy is a major biter. I'm actually afraid to put him back into the loft. Despite alot of socialization when hewas a baby, now any time I put my hand into the cage, he goes into full blown psycho attack mode. He bites and latches on and thrashes his head side to side and pins my hand between his body and the cage wall. If he's hanging out outside the cage, he doesn't try to fly away when approached. He firmly stands his ground as if ready to fight.

It doesn't hurt me, that's not what I'm worried about. I'm just worried to put him back with the other birds because I do have a full time job and can't be watching 24/7. And I'm sure he would do it as soon as I'm not watching anyway. Not quite sure what to do here. I don't want him to be a lonely indoor bird, especially because he seems so angry. I want him to be happy but I don't want him fighting with all the other birds either. Especially with his dad. If I have 2 super dominant birds, I can't imagine it would end well. His dad owns my loft & puts everyone in their place, but he's even more aggressive toward me than his dad has ever been.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's perfectly normal for a pigeon to act that way when you reach into their cage or territory. It is normal instinct for them to defend their territory. You want them to do that in a loft. I have one that has given me more marks on my arms from reaching into their box when I have to, but he is not a trouble maker in the loft. He is a strong protector of his box though. But nothing wrong with that. That is what they are supposed to do. So you really can't tell how he will be with other birds in a loft situation until you put him in. Keeping him in a cage by himself isn't a life for a bird. Try it and see how things go. Make sure he has his own box, and lock him in it for a few days so that he gets to seeing it as his own space, then let him out of it. If he doesn't take it over as his, then put him back in it at night, and let him out again in the morning for a while. Eventually he will see it as his place. He may very well be fine with the others. Won't know till you try.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

If possible, let a web, cctv or other sort of camera recording what's happening in the loft when you're not present and then take a decision. 


I think pigeons that are agressive toward others are also less interested in socializing but keeping a pigeon in a room is quite depressing. Have you thought of releasing him? You may try to make him use your home as his home, flying outside and coming inside when he wants. I have several pigeons that do this (I keep the pigeons in the appartment I live). Anyway, even released, a violent pigeon will chase and beat other pigeons.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't know why everyone is just assuming that this bird is aggressive as far as other birds. Biting when you enter his cage or territory is normal, especially when you have been forcing medications or food on him for a while. He is defending himself. When I have a sick or injured bird, and he starts behaving this way, I am glad, as it means that he is starting to feel better and be more like a pigeon. This doesn't reflect on how he will be with other birds in a loft. And even if he does act up in there, there are usually ways to get him to calm down and behave better. Releasing a lone pigeon is never a good idea unless absolutely necessary, as a lone pigeon's chances of making it in the wild are very low, especially when he has been hand reared. Even loft birds who are used to being taken care of are at a distinct disadvantage if released. You can more than likely settle him down if he needs it in time, but whether he will even need that is yet to be seen.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Squeaker said:


> Despite alot of socialization when hewas a baby, now any time I put my hand into the cage, he goes into full blown psycho attack mode. He bites and latches on and thrashes his head side to side and pins my hand between his body and the cage wall. If he's hanging out outside the cage, he doesn't try to fly away when approached. He firmly stands his ground as if ready to fight.
> 
> It doesn't hurt me, that's not what I'm worried about. I'm just worried to put him back with the other birds because I do have a full time job and can't be watching 24/7.


*That is totally normal behavior, the bird is just adapting to his environment and being protective of its real estate, and it doesn't mean it is going to be aggressive as Jay3 has posted. . The bird is growing up and feeling much better! I always love when their personalities and instinctual behaviors come out.

As far as putting the bird in the loft, put him out there when your home so you can keep an eye out tentatively. Also, there are always going to be dominant males, but there are also situations you can control. What size is your loft, how many single birds you have, how many are male and female, and are you keeping the breeding couples separate. 
*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Skyeking said:


> *That is totally normal behavior, the bird is just adapting to his environment and being protective of its real estate, and it doesn't mean it is going to be aggressive as Jay3 has posted. . The bird is growing up and feeling much better! I always love when their personalities and instinctual behaviors come out.
> 
> As far as putting the bird in the loft, put him out there when your home so you can keep an eye out tentatively. Also, there are always going to be dominant males, but there are also situations you can control. What size is your loft, how many single birds you have, how many are male and female, and are you keeping the breeding couples separate.
> *



These are all very good questions, and have a lot of influence on how the birds interact in a loft environment. Can you answer them, and maybe we can help.


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