# corroding beak



## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I finally figured out how to post a "new thread". I am so technologically stunted so I apologize if I've posted in places that did not belong.
Anyways, So far, Craow Dum has been living with me for 3 months. Straight away when I first found him I've been taking him to an avian vet for different issues. 
First and foremost, his beak is deformed. The vet suspects it was damaged from trauma. His lower beak is fine but the top beak is not only very small but it keeps splintering off. I am guessing like if you would to stub your toe and the naill had been severely damaged eventually the nail splinters off. This is what seems to be happening. I fear he will lose the entire top beak. I don't think a prosthetic beak would work since there will be nothing for it to adhere to. 
Thankfully, he can still eat on his own so long as I fill the cup all the way to the top. He will tilt his head to the side and scoop the seeds/pellets one at a time.
thoughts?
*This photo I took 3 weeks ago. Ihis beak has gotten worse. I will submit that ASAP


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak updated pics*

Hooray! downloaded the most recent pic so you see the beak!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Usually, this is due to an infection like canker. Canker is the common name for Trichomoniasis, a protozoal infection/infestation by a parasite called "Trichomonads". More than likely, the damage was done some time ago and the affected part of the beak is simply crumbling as you see. That said, we'd normally run the bird through a course of antibiotics (Nitroimidazoles like Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Carnidazole, Secnidazole, Dimetridazole or a couple of others that I can't remember; those all usually go by trade names--those were the more formal drug names) for the Trichomonads, and another antibiotic to catch whatever concurrent bacterial infection that might or might not be present. That second antibiotic might be Baytril (trade name for Enrofloxacin) or Bactrim (one of many trade names for a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination) or Amoxycillin (actually a Penicillin)... often whatever is available.

Hopefully, the crumbling will stop at the ceres (nostrils), but it could go further, obviously.

Pidgey


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak*

He was on baytril, an antifungal and antiprotozoan meds (metronizonole)
He had mutiple tests including blood tests and swabs. No canker no respiratory infection either. He did have giardia and feather lice. The antibacterial meds given were given as a preventative. He had no adverse reaction to any of the meds. Yes, his beak is splintering and I HOPE is doesn't continue.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It will likely stop where you see an underlying pink color signaling blood flow to the region.

Pidgey


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh...
As you can see from the photo it's kind of blacken and crusty...
It reminds me of a badly injured toenail.
Is it possible that the beak could regenerate somewhat?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Nope. Only the very tip (which is gone here) grows on pigeons. The rest is hard structure with underlying bone and flesh that don't grow.

Pidgey


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak*

hmmmm... Ifrom what you say pidgy I am thinking that the remaining part of the beak that is apparent may not be beak at all but the underlying bone structure....I am hoping things just stay stable.....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I think Craow Dum is going to lose that last quarter-inch or so, back down to the dark color line to the right of the pinkish area in the last picture above. That would be my guess, based on past experience. He (or she) will still be able to eat from a deep dish but will never be releasable.

Pidgey


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak*

Yes, you may be right. that peice could fall off.
My vet did say that craow Dum would never be able to live in the wild because of his deformity. He seems to be happy with the rest of my flock.
I just wonder at what extent that beak is damaged. So long as he is healthy and can eat.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Here is the latest pic of Craow Dum. he loves to take a bath. I have to groom him daily by washing his feet and cleaning his nares of debris.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

If you look at the photos of this pigeon mummy skull, you will see the keratin tip of the upper and lower beak (which is analogous to a fingernail on a human) 

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100953580439453378691/albums/5709874144348970657

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak*

Thank you for the link> It helps me to see clearly what a "normal" beak is suppose to be and what my pigeon's beak, is not.
He is missing the entire top keratin covering. And as I view older photos of him I see that his remaining beak is fracturing off bit by bit. My vet suspects an injury as a baby .
He is still eating and thriving but I can not understand why his beak is still corroding (necrotic).


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I once saw a photo showing fine veins in a bone.

I'm not a doctor or vet, but it seems that if there is no circulation, if the circulation has been disrupted, then bone cannot be kept alive. 

This (disease) may not apply in your specific case, but I found this under "bone necrosis" in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avascular_necrosis



> Avascular necrosis (also osteonecrosis, bone infarction,[1] aseptic necrosis, ischemic bone necrosis,[2] and AVN) is a disease where there is cellular death (necrosis) of bone components due to interruption of the blood supply.[3] Without blood, the bone tissue dies and the bone collapses.





> While it can affect any bone, and half of cases show multiple sites of damage, avascular necrosis primarily affects the joints at the shoulder, knee, and hip. The classical sites are: head of femur, neck of talus and waist of scaphoid.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*beak fell off today*

Poor Craow Dum's top beak (finally) just fell off to day. 
Yes, I do believe his beak was necrotic for what ever reason.
He looks awful (as you can see from the photo)
I filled his food dish to the top as well as his water bowl and thankfully he could still eat.
Regardless, I am planning on taking him to his vet for a check up to see what she thinks about his long term prognosis. Hopefully, so long as he can eat we will just carry on.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

I hope he can cope with the missing upper beak.

I fed a feral pigeon (*Splitbeak*) for several months, with half of her upper beak dangling to one side. (I wrote about her in PT). As long as she could eat out of a deep dish (I had to avoid attracting attention, since feeding pigeons was a no-no), but she did so well that she started to re-join the local flock in their evasive flying maneuvers when the hawks maintained by the city atop the Dom (the main, Gothic cathedral in Cologne) would make their forays. Shortly after this, she disappeared. I last saw her on a December Sunday in 2007. 

It seems to me that if she can keep her tongue from drying out, and the necrosis kept at bay, she should be okay. 

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks Larry for your encouragement.
So far, he seems to be eating and drinking. I run a humidifier next to his pen during the day since it is so dry here. I just made an appointment with my avian vet to check him out.
Yes, I worry about the necrosis. I am hoping the vet can provide more answers for me and hopefully, halt this necrosis. He looks awful


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I took Craow Dum to the vet today to take a look at him.
The vet was amazed at how healthy he looked overall but suggested a histology test to be evaluated since the bone is exposed. I'll find out the results in about 3 weeks.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

pirab buk said:


> He was on baytril, an antifungal and antiprotozoan meds (metronizonole)
> He had mutiple tests including blood tests and swabs. No canker no respiratory infection either. He did have giardia and feather lice. The antibacterial meds given were given as a preventative. He had no adverse reaction to any of the meds. Yes, his beak is splintering and I HOPE is doesn't continue.


*Hi Pirab buk, This bird had PIGEON POX VIRUS. The bird can be infected mosquitoes, or by drinking from water that has been contaminated by a bird that has the virus. The pox will be with the bird for 3 to 4 weeks, when it is in the mouth it looks very much like canker and is confused by many people.* .GEORGE


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I believe this bird had pigeon pox as well because when I found him he had a scab on his beak (at 3 weeks old, I think). The vet didn't think so because he did not have scabs anywhere else but the histology evaluation should show something (I hope, conclusively)
he is now six months old. Other than the missing top beak he is healthy.
Any other thoughts or suggestions? Thanks


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*test results from histology report*

I just got a call from my vet in regards to Craow Dum's histology test results of his beak. It appears that is was NOT pox but a bone eating bacteria.
He will be starting on a two punch regimen of antibiotics : clindamycin and enrofloxacin 3 times a day for a MONTH!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

pirab buk said:


> I just got a call from my vet in regards to Craow Dum's histology test results of his beak. It appears that is was NOT pox but a bone eating bacteria.
> He will be starting on a two punch regimen of antibiotics : clindamycin and enrofloxacin 3 times a day for a MONTH!


Did the vet say that YOU needed to take any precautions, such as wearing gloves, maybe a face mask? In other words, could it transfer from bird to human. Not likely, but you should maybe ask. What is the prognosis for the bird?
Thank you for your continued care of this bird. You are sure going the extra mile for it.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*diseased beak*

I asked my vet if it was contagious to me or my other birds and she said "no".
The prognosis for survival is very good . Craow Dum is still without an upper beak. I will get more info when I pick up the meds tomorrow (they had to be specialty ordered)


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Glad to hear that it's not contagious, and that you have a good prognosis. Thanks for keeping us informed on its progress.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*meds*

It is quite a production to give craow Dum his meds. It took me close to 30 minutes to slowly drop one drop at a time for him to drink it up.
As a result an hour later he pooped liquid.
this morning after slowly administering the two meds, an hour later, I found a puddle but mixed with seed. I do not know if he vomited it up or pooped the seeds out whole because in the mix looked like poop too. I have to keep an eye on it.It is a arduous ordeal since he has no upper beak. he licked up the baytril since it is fruity flovored and a small amount but the clinodmycin three times a day is a huge amount.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

hmm, you could try using a small "bread ball" soaked in the med -
or is that maybe too difficult to do with the damaged beak ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> hmm, you could try using a small "bread ball" soaked in the med -
> or is that maybe too difficult to do with the damaged beak ?



Was wondering the same thing.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

hmmmm...I wonder...
He doesn't mind the baytril too much because it is a small amount (1.2 ml)and flavored. the clindamycin is a vast amount and taste awful. ( 6.ml)
I might try the bread ball trick with the baytril first.
The biggest problem is that he is amouth breather so I have to be super patient and sloooooow!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*"mouth breather"*

Hello pirab buk,

First of all, let me state that anyone more knowledgeable on this subject can feel free to correct me, since I have not made a study of this, only made observations.

Drying out: A major problem I see with a pigeon missing an upper beak is that the mucus membranes may tend to dry out faster, perhaps similar to the way it happens in humans who are "mouth breathers." The tongue of the pigeon, either the upper part or else part of the under side, is more exposed to the air. I think it would be harder for the pigeon to keep the tongue and mouth from freezing in very cold weather.

Picking up food and maneuvering it for swallowing, pecking, preening feathers: these are other major problems. I think a caretaker would have to take over some of the preening and feather removing the pigeon would otherwise be able to do for itself. Small feathers near the vent would need to be periodically removed so that feces do not clot and accumulate near the vent. 

When I cleaned the female feral pigeon *Splitbeak* in the shower, it took me a good half hour to remove a golfball-sized rock-candy-hard mass of poop stuck to the feathers around the vent and lower keel. Feathers, and a small bit of skin came away with the "fossilized"-feeling poop.

I have used a toothbrush, twiddling an electric-toothbrush brush attachment (_Braun Oral-B_ rotary oscillating head toothbrush) between my fingers, to groom the small neck and head feathers and other fine feathers, of various rescue pigeons. They usually come to enjoy it. First they have to develop some trust in you.

I think that all of the inhaled air enters through the trachea (windpipe), which is a flexible and semi-rigid tube leading from an opening at there base of the tongue. I removed one from a pigeon I rescued that died the next day, when I did a postmortem. The cross section is shaped like a common medicine tablet, with two longer parallel sides, and two short curves at opposing ends. Think of the shape of a racetrack. I think the odds are against the possibility of an object exactly the right shape and size lodging in the upper tracheal opening and blocking the flow of air.

The trachea was reinforced to prevent it from collapsing like a limp rubber tube or balloon, which would let the sides stick together and be hard to separate. If you have ever tried to blow up a rubber balloon that had the mouth and neck of the balloon stuck together (from dried saliva or whatever), you will know how important it is to keep the trachea from collapsing. The trachea was kept open by a number of rigid rings (made from cartilage?), held together by a thin transparent skin or fascia. The section of trachea I snipped off from the base of the skull to the top of the thorax (which would be the length of the throat) was an inch or a bit more in length, when retracted. It would probably stretch to five or six inches in length, when the pigeon stretched his neck to clean or preen its tail and wings. 

I had the trachea and a few other organs (including the very hard gizzard) of the pigeon in the freezer, and thought of stacking some coins onto the side of the trachea while the tubelike structure lay flat on a table, to see how much pressure the trachea could withstand before collapsing, but my wife threw away my samples before I could get around to deciding how to best go about it.

Conclusion: the trachea is quite durable, resistant to lateral pressure, and keeps the passage of air possible while the pigeon moves and stretches and twists its head and neck this way and that. The trachea in my specimen was attached by thin fasciae to the left side of the spine. The rest of the throat and the crop was a balloon-like structure, another tube, open at the top, and emptying into the rest of the digestive system in another opening lower down. 

The pigeon can close the upper opening of the trachea at the base of the tongue. Think of two eyelids meeting across an eyeball, with each rim of eyelid (where the eyelashes would be) reinforced by a rod of cartilage. These two "eyelid-shaped" structures are curved and domed in shape. So, given the shape of these two structures, and given the cross-section shape and size of the trachea, I think it is rather difficult for the trachea to be blocked by a foreign object. Although, I did personally witness a baby duck choke to death within less than a minute on a small object it picked up at the edge of a pond in the botanical garden, the Flora, in Cologne, Germany, while its mother watched helplessly a few feet away. She had pecked at him before it happened, the first time he went to the silt at the bottom of the pond's edge, but he ignored her and went back to the silt. The second time had fatal results for him. I do not know what he picked up. I did not know how to do a Heimlich maneuver, or such, for baby ducks. Last year or so there was a news video on a woman who rescued a choking chicken by sucking the windpipe free.

When you feed your pigeon, he will close the tracheal opening. Just like a human, if he is caught unawares, or is in the wrong position to avoid inhaling crop contents (or stomach contents in the case of a human), choking can occur.

I do not think the missing upper beak changes the way he inhales through the trachea in any significant way. I think a normal, closed beak would protect his tongue from the cold. A normal, closed beak would have the air pass though the two openings of the nares towards the base of the tongue. I have a pigeon skull in front of me, and do not see much in the way of sinuses for warming and humidifying cold air. With the skull held upside-down, I can see in a straight line from where the spine connects, from the outside of the floor of the cranium all the way through the two openings of the nares. 

I think your main function, other than giving him love and food and refuge, is to be *his "upper beak"*.

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*upper beak*

Thanks Larry for your thoughts!
Eating has not been a problem for Craow Dum so long as I fill his bowl to the top.
I spend an enormous amount of time grooming him. I clean his nares and mouth at least twice a day of debris (feather bits and mucus) It's kind of gross plus I clean his feet. He is good about bathing in a shallow bowl.I will dry him off and pinch off feather sheaths (loose keratin) I haven't had any problems so far with poop sticking to his bottom.
It is slow going giving him his meds. Patience is the key. I drop one or two drops at a time and wait for him to move his tongue to suck it up.It wouldn't be so bad if it was a small amount or if it was a short duration, but unfortunately, it is neither. He is a good sport about it even though he gets impatient!
I do worry about the choking so I can not rush.
sigh...
He is a such a dear little soul.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

pirab buk,

Check out this link on Facebook:


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150609228745450&set=o.176239232007&type=3&theater

Barbara Fernandez Andujar has a pigeon also with upper beak missing.

Larry


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

pirab buk said:


> Thanks Larry for your thoughts!
> Eating has not been a problem for Craow Dum so long as I fill his bowl to the top.
> I spend an enormous amount of time grooming him. I clean his nares and mouth at least twice a day of debris (feather bits and mucus) It's kind of gross plus I clean his feet. He is good about bathing in a shallow bowl.I will dry him off and pinch off feather sheaths (loose keratin) I haven't had any problems so far with poop sticking to his bottom.
> It is slow going giving him his meds. Patience is the key. I drop one or two drops at a time and wait for him to move his tongue to suck it up.It wouldn't be so bad if it was a small amount or if it was a short duration, but unfortunately, it is neither. He is a good sport about it even though he gets impatient!
> ...


Have you noticed any more of the upper"beak" deteriorating, or has it stopped?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*sad*

I feel bad for that poor bird posted on facebook. At least with my bird, I am giving him the best care possible.Unfortunately I am not a facebook subscriber so i can not offer her help. I do feel she needs to clean that bird up, fill his bowls up to top for food and water. And a vet visit is needed too.

* My vet called me this morning inquiring about my pigeon and how he is doing with his meds.I told her that I am having a tough time giving him meds. I tried yesterday using a tube and he struggled. I was seriously afraid of inflicting damage. I told vet about this. She thinks what I am doing is fine (even though is it extremely slow going-one drop at a time)The reason for her call was she felt I should be increasing the amount of meds.
My heart stopped.
I am having an extremely hard go at it as is-plus this morning he threw up.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pirab buk said:


> I feel bad for that poor bird posted on facebook. At least with my bird, I am giving him the best care possible.Unfortunately I am not a facebook subscriber so i can not offer her help. I do feel she needs to clean that bird up, fill his bowls up to top for food and water. And a vet visit is needed too.
> 
> * My vet called me this morning inquiring about my pigeon and how he is doing with his meds.I told her that I am having a tough time giving him meds. I tried yesterday using a tube and he struggled. I was seriously afraid of inflicting damage. I told vet about this. She thinks what I am doing is fine (even though is it extremely slow going-one drop at a time)The reason for her call was she felt I should be increasing the amount of meds.
> My heart stopped.
> *I am having an extremely hard go at it as is-plus this morning he threw up.*


*
*

If the meds are making him vomit, you can try giving a drop of pepto bismol before giving the meds.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

It is hard to say if his beak is still deteriorating but my guess is that it has stopped.
I think I got him up too early in the morning so that is why he vomited. I would probably vomit too if somebody first thing in the morning shoved yucky flavored meds in my mouth. he didn't vomit this morning but his poop is watery. sigh...
have anyone out there given their bird clindamycin? I am wondering if this is "normal".


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

These can be side effects in people.
Mild diarrhea; nausea; vomiting.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*meds*

So I am guessing this is a "normal" side effect. he just did a perfect healthy poop but I know after I give him the meds it will be mess.
I just pray this will do the trick for him.


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## tjad25 (Feb 6, 2012)

@pirab buk. any updates on Craow Dum?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*craow dum*

I think I got the medicine regiment right in order now (without any vomiting.)
Bottom line is I have to go painfully slow in administering it. I give him a few drops, let him digest and walk around and then again. During this time I spend time grooming and cleaning him. I peeled off some black debris off his beak. I am wondering if this old dirt or indeed sloughed off dead skin. 
He is looking better unless it is just wishful thinking. I am meticulous in grooming and cleaning him. His face looks better, I think! 
The meds, however, are still give him diarrhea an hour after I give it to him but a few hours later his poop is normal. His appetite is still good and he looks forward to his "routines" (cuddle time on the couch) Nineteen more days to go


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad it's going well. Good luck!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*week two of meds*

I am now on week two with the meds. sigh..
This will continue for another two weeks.During the process of painfully slowly giving him meds, I spend the time in between gulpfuls grooming and cleaning his face. 
I've peeled off black skin-like debris revealing more of a pinkish much cleaner cere underneath.The same goes for his lower beak by scraping off blackish gunk residing at the exposed tip.
I am optimistically hopeful that this is dead cell debris sloughing off and that the necrotic process has ceased


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sounds good. Keep it up!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*day 23 of 28 days*

Well I am still tethered to the house giving Craow Dum his 3 times a day regiment of meds. I honestly can't say if I see that there is any real improvement with his beak. His face is clearer of debris because while I am giving him his meds I am meticulously cleaning dried crud, mucus and debris from his beak and cere. I will be doing a follow up visit with the vet for a revaluation. I think she will want to take a tissue sample which means cutting tissue/exposed bone. I get the chills just thinking about that. This poor bird has been through enough already.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree. You have both been through a lot. Thank goodness he has you. Poor little guy.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

It is really hard to say if he is getting better. I'll get glad once the meds are done. He seems happy and healthy other than the rotten beak.I have probiotics ready for when he is finished with his regiment.His poop are watery and gross right now and it is because of the meds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

poor little fella. your dedication is amazing.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*craow Dum*

I'm a sucker for this little guy
Despite of what I put him through by forcing medicine down his throat and constantly cleaning his face of sticky debris he has a friendly sweet disposition.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

The best medicine in the world would be useless without the love and care of someone to administer it to him. He is fortunate to have you. And, you are fortunate to have him. Sometimes these helpless creatures bring out the best in us.

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you Larry for the kind and encouraging words ;-)
He climbed up on the couch with me yesterday and fell asleep. He is as affectionate as a puppy. Tomorrow, he has his follow up vet appointment. Hopefully (after 27 days now) he will done with the meds. I hope the vet sees an improvement.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

BTW Larry, I just checked out your picasaweb. did you do that wonderful artwork?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*vet visit*

Craow Dum finished his 28 day regiment of meds and had his vet follow up visit today.
It is hard to say if anything changed good or worse. I am guessing his beak has stopped corroding. The vet was concerned with his snotty nose. However,he has been doing this since day one.he is a mouth breather since he has no top beak. If it was anything bacterial the baytril and clindamycin would've taken care of it. Regardless, we sent out a another cytology slide out as a follow up.
The vet thought he was in good health as a result of my meticulous care.
Nothing really new to report.


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## Vova (Mar 27, 2012)

Will the beak grow back???


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Vova said:


> Will the beak grow back???


I don't think, judging by how much is gone, that it will grow.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

No, the beak will definitely not grow back. Not only is the cartilage gone but the boney frame up to the nares. He was on a month long regiment of meds in hopes of curtailing some kind of bone eating bacteria due to an infection from the trauma. My guess is that a seagull ripped his upper beak off. He had an additional cytology smear sent out to the lab to see what is going on after his meds were complete. He eats good, has good energy and his poop look good. I keep him clean and well fed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I hope the vet sees an improvement also. You have tried so hard for him.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*test results*

Well the vet called me yesterday with the cytology report. Despite the month long regiment of baytril and clindamycin he has a massive bacterial infection!
Needless to say, I am a bit depressed. He has an appointment next week to do a culture and try to isolate the bacteria.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Don't get too discouraged.

After all, he's still alive.

I took a feral pigeon to an avian vet last fall, who did a fecal smear and microscopic exam. Said there were thousands of cocci eggs almost ready to hatch. Gave the bird an injection, and he was set to go.

Larry


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Goodness, poor little guy. You have been amazing in caring for him. WOW.

I truly hope things will get better. Did the vet say anything more about this massive bacteria infection? Your vet sounds caring too - with the follow up phonecall and all. Good luck with the war with bacteria.

Always, sending healing thoughts to Craow Dum... take care!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

pira buk,

Saw your query regarding the artwork posted on picasaweb just now when I was reading through previous posts. I did the bolder abstract oils (3 of them) and the cartoons. My wife did the kiddie pencils 
(illustrations for a kiddie booklet accompanying a Dutch dance CD series) and other paintings.

I have to look at them again to see what's there. It's been a while.
Thanks,

Larry


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*hope!*

Thank you for your kind words!
I am hoping what ever it is we find it can knocked out with doxycycline because it is injectable! For now, I have to wait for my appointment and then see what the results are.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

The more I think about it I think it is mycoplasma. In a way I hope it is because it is something definite.
I can not leave him for extended periods of time (like going on a holiday) because even in a short period of time within a few hours I will find debris, feather bits and crud stuck in his mouth and nares. I am afraid he could suffocate if I did not take the time to carefully clean and debride him of this snotty mess. I do it at least twice a day.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Mycoplasma? I thought that's a human disease? (pardon my ignorance!)

I really hope the vet finds an answer soon so she can prescribe the proper meds to battle whatever illness the poor darling is going through 

Take care both human and pigeon!


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm so sorry that after everything you've done - and your dedication has been amazing - that Craow Dum's situation is still unresolved. I know how incredibly frustrating it can be to see no clear resolution after such a long course of medications. At least the injectable doxycycline, will give both of you a bit of a break, as it is a single injection per week, as far as I know. 

He does look very good in the pictures (other than the beak, obviously). All that meticulous grooming you've been doing for him is very evident. Please try to stay optimistic. Everyone is rooting for the two of you.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*mycoplasmosis*

Mycoplasmosis, from what I am reading in my pigeon books, is a fairly common respiratory disease in pigeons. The "flying vet" describes it as a 'primary erosive disease". Craow Dum has some kind of bacterial infection. What it is is unknown so we will see what happens on tuesday. I kind of hope that what it is so we can attack it. In the meantime, I have to constantly clean the poor bird's face of debris.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

I emailed my vet and she said it could be possible he has mycoplasmosis but it is hard to diagnose. Regardless, he has an appointment next week for a culture. Sadly, the bone that is left of his beak is still dusting off. I can still scrape bits off while I am cleaning his face of mucus. I would think he is a lost cause but he eats good, poops good, is active and affectionate. I really hope this vet visit shows something conclusive. 
I'd rather just know in order to deal with it.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you for your dedication. _Where there is life, there is always hope._ Don't give up on him.

I hope you will continue to love him. Again, thank you for doing your best, I am sure the little one is very grateful - if only he could express it, he will.

Good luck with the visit next week! Keep us updated!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*vet visit*

Craow Dum had his vet follow up visit today. He had a culture done inside his nose plus a doxcycline injection. He will also be on a nebulizer with vaporized meds.One day at a time. He was very grouchy after his injection today. I truly hope it helps him. He will have to get a second dose next week.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Poor baby - I hope this puts him on the road to recovery.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Hope all this helps him.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I hope it works too. All the very best! Craow Dum may be unlucky in health, but he is truly lucky to have met you. Good luck with the new treatment!


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Despite of everything he has been through he still has this lovely cuddly disposition.
I am anxious to hear from the results of his culture sample. He was still a boogery mess this morning. He wasn't too happy to have his nose cleaned


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*still snotty*

Despite of the professional help (so far) he still has a snotty nose-(nothing has really changed )
I am waiting for the nebulizer to arrive in the mail. He has another appointment again next week.
I can't understand why he is not improving. Everything I have researched and I have gone to the best professionals indicate he should be improving.
The nebulizer is his last shot and I am still waiting for his culture results.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*vet visit*

Craow Dum had his second injection of doxcycycline.
His culture results showed he has a klebsiella injection in his sinus's. So far, nothing is working.
I have an aquarium set up with a nebulizing machine to ventilate baytril in for about 30 minutes. Day two, nothing's changed. He is still a snotty mess.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Has anyone ever dealt with klebsiella?


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm sorry he's not improving, but at least you now know what you are dealing with. 



pirab buk said:


> Has anyone ever dealt with klebsiella?


Sorry, can't offer anything. Can't they do a drug sensitivity test on it? It could be resistant to the Doxy, or maybe it just takes a while to start working.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I hope he is comfortable and happy. I know for sure he is very well-loved. I am completely inspired and in total awe of your dedication for him. God bless and good luck!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Interesting info HERE, dont know if you could glean any meds from it that are safe for pigeons that you havent tried ?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*meds*

hmmm..that is interesting. he is on his last day of the nebulizer and he is still a snotty mess.
Tomorrow he is back to the vet for a third injection of doxycycline. He looks the same, really.Pieces of what looks like bone comes out his nose and his cere is still black. The poor thing has gone through the ringer.
Administering meds orally is such a problem and I am not sure he is eating it down his throat. I guess tomorrow I will see what the vet says.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*latest vet visit*

Craow Dum went in for his final doxycycline shot.Peices of bone, I think are still finding it's way out of his nares. Today the vet found that there was some bleeding from his sinus.The whole thing is puzzling.He should have responded to the meds especially since the lab results conclusively showed the offending bacteria. It is like something is blocking the area that needs the meds.I would not be surprised if there was deformed, broken bone blocking the sinus area. Even his nares are lopsided and malformed.
I think right now he is just on metacam to reduce inflammation and to make sure his nose is clean.
sigh.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Does the vet have any other suggestions if this last treatment has finished and he still has problems?
I'm sorry he's not responded as hoped. He's a real soldier the way he's coping with this.

Janet


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

She named other meds but they would have to be given orally and she didn't think it would really help because something is preventing the meds to reach the infected spot. 
Everything I've read that baytril and doxycycline are the meds of choice.
An oral/sinus flush was suggested however due to his deformity he could easily aspirate.
Right now we are just doing palliative treatment. A little metacam to reduce inflamation and I'm keeping his nares clean. The vet will email me if she can think of an alternative treatment.Meanwhile he eats good (weigh 329grams) and poops are perfect.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Have you or your vet considered using Fosbac? It contains a modified form of Fosfomycin, which I understand has a very small molecule, that can penetrate in many places where other antibiotics can't. 

I'm not sure how good it is, but I just read that it is supposedly effective against Klebsiella too.
The only drawback is that it's only sold in powder form, to be administered through the drinking water.

And by the way, has anybody used this?


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

I found this page that could be helpful, although I am sure you are doing the best you can.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-dept/avian-exotic-dept/avian-respiratory-problem-treatments.aspx



> Bacterial Infections
> Common bacterial respiratory infections seen in pet birds today include Klebsiella, Proteus, chlamydophila, and Pasteurella.
> 
> "Bacterial infections can be very severe and serious," said Gregory Burkett, DVM, Dipl. ABVP, in Durham, N.C.
> ...


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

He had the nebulizing treatment and injections directly in his blood stream.
Fosbac sounds interesting. It appears the infection is locked in a sinus/nasal cavity of abnormal structure.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi Pirab,
was just wondering how Craow Dum is getting on - any improvement?


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

*corroded beak*

Craow Dum eats good and poops normally.
He gets a drop of metacam in the morning to reduce inflammation. He still has a snotty nose.I clean his face, nose and mouth twice a day. Things aren't improving but they are not going down hill either. It's basically palliative, maintenance care at this point. My vet thinks he is doing well despite of what could've happened to him. He gets good care but his sinus cavity is deformed and boxed up making it impossible to get in an clean out all the offending bacteria. Surgery is too risky.


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## nycpigeonlady (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for the update. With all the great care you're giving him, it sounds like his immune system is strong enough to keep the bacteria in check, and him feeling good. I hope it's possible for him to kick this all on his own eventually. 

BTW, I was told that metacam causes kidney damage with prolonged use, but I guess you vet must think it's OK.


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## pirab buk (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh, I'm glad you told me that. He's been on almost 3 weeks.The vet actually told me to give it to him for only two weeks. The reason I kept him on for the third week is because it helped ease any discomfort when I clean his nose and mouth. Debris sticks to his mouth and nose like super glue.


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