# PMV question



## Cortez (Jan 9, 2011)

I recently had two birds that were never vaccinated for pmv develop the virus. None of my other birds were affected as they had been previously vaccinated. Now, I was given six youngsters as a gift from a very good flyer in my area. Under any other circumstances i would have rejected the birds but this was a once in a lifetime opportinity. I keep these birds far away from the loft and have been taking every precaution even feeding them different feed to avoid trasmitting the virus. I also vaccinated them about two weeks ago. 

HERES MY QUESTION: When can they be with the other birds? Are the birds that have been vaccinated still a threat? 
thanks any info would be greatly appreciated


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## Cortez (Jan 9, 2011)

.....anybody?


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

All I've read about PMV is that once a pigeon survived it will always be a carrier, and can be triggered by stress. Routine vaccination will definitely protect your flock but can never guarantee that it will cure the carriers. Hope this help.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would seperate them for 21 days and they should be ok. With PMV you should vaccinate once a year.
Dave


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Well, now you have me curious~ if he vaccinates the birds that got PMV, will they still be carriers of the disease in the future?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes for the rest of thier life and stress can make it come back.
Dave


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## NayNay (Mar 16, 2011)

Dang- that is gnarly. I guess as long as all the other birds are vaccinated, then they are safe to be kept with the rest of the flock, right? But any new birds, or baby birds too young to be vaccinated would be susceptible if the carriers have a relapse? I am new, and have 14 YB's birds at the moment. None were vaccinated prior to shipment, So I have been trying to get my hands on less than a 100 dose shipment. I am hoping that some of my local flyers will have some that I can buy from them- or want to split the cost of a 100 doses. It's less about the price than it is about worrying about the shelf life, as even though I intend to raise some young, I plan on keeping my flock on the small side.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

soymi69 said:


> All I've read about PMV is that once a pigeon survived it will always be a carrier, and can be triggered by stress. Routine vaccination will definitely protect your flock but can never guarantee that it will cure the carriers. Hope this help.


Wherever did you read that? 

*Understanding Pigeon Paramyxovirosis - H.Vindervogel & J.P.Duchatel*



> In the infected pigeon, the virus persists for not more than 4 weeks in the respiratory organs, 3 weeks in the intestines and 5 weeks in the brain. After they have been ill for 6 weeks, the pigeons are no longer carriers of the virus and thus no longer transmit the infection.


What is true is that pigeons can have a recurrence of some nervous system symptoms a period of weeks, months or years after they were first sick. They are, however, not infectious. A similar relapse has occurred in human illnesses with a couple of kinds of viral encephalitis.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

John_D said:


> Wherever did you read that?
> 
> *Understanding Pigeon Paramyxovirosis - H.Vindervogel & J.P.Duchatel*
> 
> ...


I'm glad you cleared that up. I've had birds with it as YB's who have recovered and went on to be good race birds then I have the few that had it but they still have what you called "nervous system symptoms" that they'll never recover from. I keep them in their own lil coop. Most ppl tell me I'm crazy I'm gonna get my other birds sick from them but I've never had a problem with them getting my other birds sick.


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

I was reading this thread and started thinking, Just of some of the things that people do with their Pigeons throughout a life time, So I’m Asking, why would anyone knowingly Keep or House a bird that has had PMV and that as so called cured it!!! I find that even the slightest risk if any chance of it reoccurring or manifesting it self in any Way or form would send chills up anyone’s spine if they knew that a Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition flyer would allow such a thing to happen, even in any sort of vicinity, Coop’s, Cage’s or Land…!… Anywhere near their Healthy Stock Birds… I could maybe see Folk’s or People that may have a few birds as Beloved Pets & caring of such, But a Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition flyer??? WHAT do you do with such a bird or bird(s) Breed them??? Please tell me… And again I’m not talking about Pets…!!! Because I just don’t see it!!! And I Know its most likely because of my lack of knowledge on PMV and because I don’t deal with birds that may even show the slightest chance of having PMV… Because with over 40+ years with my dealings with Pigeons and I’ve been on the Natural System all my life and have never given Any, I mean “ANY” of my birds PMV shots ever and also never had one of MY birds ever come down with PMV… Now I have Purchased birds from folks “Which I always Isolate” which have given their birds PMV shots and every other injection in the Book! and Swear by them!!! But have come down with the Signs or Symptoms of PMV,,, Go Figure! I wonder Why??? Is it because I grab 3-4 handfuls of my Pigeon Crap or Poop from my loft and place it in where the new birds are caged and pour water out from my water cans where my birds have drank from & place it in another water can where the new birds are located, I do this for 2-3 weeks before any new birds are allowed in my loft. This is how I find if these new birds will make it in my Loft or not! Most of the time I start to notice any sign of sickness in the first 7-10 days of doing this… And so the Sick birds are of no use to me!!! And I’ll leave it at that!!! All I ask is Please if anyone has had or has birds that are currently Housed in your loft or anywhere in the vicinity of your Fancy Stock Breed or Competition flyer birds that at one time or another have been exposed or treated for PMV please have the decency to tell others when you are selling or giving away birds… On my Website and on this Forum, I’m proud to say and will always say I’m on the Natural System and have never injected or given shots to my birds for PMV or anything else when talking on this forum & anyone can read my Website or before selling my birds, I let folks know this before any moneys exchange hands if interested in my Birds…! I believe Pigeons don’t need them!!! If cared for Responsibly & Ethically, but I have Seen, Read & Noticed others that don’t hold all the same or live by the same set of Morales & Standards, But are the first to Rant & Rage what others are doing is wrong or how they do it… So if you have birds that have been cured, treated or housed in the vicinity or with your Fancy Stock Breeder loft or Competition flying birds loft, Please raise your Hand and state your case so as too let me Know, Because I & maybe others would want to know this before buying or receiving any birds from your loft…!… Again Please understand that these comments are not! & is not geared towards any pigeon pet owner or other folks that strictly care for sick birds… I would like to hear from Fancy Stock Breeders or Competition flying bird owners and why they would do this and how they Justify it or explain it to other Club members that are transporting their birds with yours to a Homer race or caging your birds next to others in a Show Competition!!! Or and do the other club members have any Knowledge at All...???

Louie


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

It was my understanding from a club member that once a bird got PMV not all symptoms would go away, and that it could be passed on even years later. Have you a link I would like to read more on it. 
Dave


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Pigeonmumbler said:


> I was reading this thread and started thinking, Just of some of the things that people do with their Pigeons throughout a life time, So I’m Asking, why would anyone knowingly Keep or House a bird that has had PMV and that as so called cured it!!! I find that even the slightest risk if any chance of it reoccurring or manifesting it self in any Way or form would send chills up anyone’s spine if they knew that a Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition flyer would allow such a thing to happen, even in any sort of vicinity, Coop’s, Cage’s or Land…!… Anywhere near their Healthy Stock Birds… I could maybe see Folk’s or People that may have a few birds as Beloved Pets & caring of such, But a Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition flyer??? WHAT do you do with such a bird or bird(s) Breed them??? Please tell me… And again I’m not talking about Pets…!!! Because I just don’t see it!!! And I Know its most likely because of my lack of knowledge on PMV and because I don’t deal with birds that may even show the slightest chance of having PMV… Because with over 40+ years with my dealings with Pigeons and I’ve been on the Natural System all my life and have never given Any, I mean “ANY” of my birds PMV shots ever and also never had one of MY birds ever come down with PMV… Now I have Purchased birds from folks “Which I always Isolate” which have given their birds PMV shots and every other injection in the Book! and Swear by them!!! But have come down with the Signs or Symptoms of PMV,,, Go Figure! I wonder Why??? Is it because I grab 3-4 handfuls of my Pigeon Crap or Poop from my loft and place it in where the new birds are caged and pour water out from my water cans where my birds have drank from & place it in another water can where the new birds are located, I do this for 2-3 weeks before any new birds are allowed in my loft. This is how I find if these new birds will make it in my Loft or not! Most of the time I start to notice any sign of sickness in the first 7-10 days of doing this… And so the Sick birds are of no use to me!!! And I’ll leave it at that!!! All I ask is Please if anyone has had or has birds that are currently Housed in your loft or anywhere in the vicinity of your Fancy Stock Breed or Competition flyer birds that at one time or another have been exposed or treated for PMV please have the decency to tell others when you are selling or giving away birds… On my Website and on this Forum, I’m proud to say and will always say I’m on the Natural System and have never injected or given shots to my birds for PMV or anything else when talking on this forum & anyone can read my Website or before selling my birds, I let folks know this before any moneys exchange hands if interested in my Birds…! I believe Pigeons don’t need them!!! If cared for Responsibly & Ethically, but I have Seen, Read & Noticed others that don’t hold all the same or live by the same set of Morales & Standards, But are the first to Rant & Rage what others are doing is wrong or how they do it… So if you have birds that have been cured, treated or housed in the vicinity or with your Fancy Stock Breeder loft or Competition flying birds loft, Please raise your Hand and state your case so as too let me Know, Because I & maybe others would want to know this before buying or receiving any birds from your loft…!… Again Please understand that these comments are not! & is not geared towards any pigeon pet owner or other folks that strictly care for sick birds… I would like to hear from Fancy Stock Breeders or Competition flying bird owners and why they would do this and how they Justify it or explain it to other Club members that are transporting their birds with yours to a Homer race or caging your birds next to others in a Show Competition!!! Or and do the other club members have any Knowledge at All...???
> 
> Louie


Could not have stated the obvious any better Louie!


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

It appears that the "Natural System" doesn't account for the natural pathology of diseases such as PMV. When asked why a bird would be kept after it had contracted PMV, the main thing that comes to mind is that these are living creatures, and many of us do not consider them to be disposable because they don't meet some racing or show standard.

I had a roller that appears to have been infected with PMV. It showed all of the symptoms such as twisted neck, stargazing, throwing food, balance problems. I isolated the bird in a shed about 100 feet away from my loft. For the eight weeks I had her quarantined, I made sure that she was the last bird cared for each day. That way, I was not going from the quarantine location into the loft, and carrying any pathogens in with me. After eight weeks of isolation, the bird was no longer showing any signs or symptoms of PMV. I waited an additional four weeks, and then reintroduced the bird to the loft. It has been back in the loft for over eight months now, and I haven't experienced any problems. The bird has been flying with my roller kit this spring, and shows no problems. It flies well, and rolls along with the others. I'm glad I didn't consider the bird disposable and cull it as some may have suggested.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Crazy Pete said:


> It was my understanding from a club member that once a bird got PMV not all symptoms would go away, and that it could be passed on even years later. Have you a link I would like to read more on it.
> Dave


Hi Dave

The quote I posted is from a booklet which as far as I know isn't in online form, though there may be other articles by the authors on the web (will post link if I see any relevant). 

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-health.html

It was published some 20+ years ago (possibly when PMV was not widely known in N.America?) but there's been no basic change in what's known about pigeon PMV since then. 

Some symptoms (usually loss of flight, twisted neck) could return or may never go away, but the bird is no longer shedding the virus. This may be due to permanent damage in the brain or dormant virus in the nervous system. Either way, like some human viruses, it only affects the afflicted pigeon at that stage.

Like Pigeon0446, we have recovered PMV pigeons. In fact, we have 35 - 40 PMV rescues, and no outbreaks of PMV amongst the others in our care. 

If someone thinks that new pigeons have had their shots, etc. and then show PMV signs, I'd suggest

* if they _did_ have the shots, it was too long ago
* whoever vaccinated them used the live vaccine, which can on occasion cause a bird to develop PMV (after all, it's giving them a weakened form of the virus)
* the bird may actually be suffering from Paratyphoid if the main thing seen is twisted neck (and birds who recover spontaneously _can_ act as carriers afterwards!)


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## Pigeonmumbler (Jun 6, 2010)

First and foremost I don’t want folks to think that My Methods’ that I have adopted for over 4 decades on my “Natural System” or my dealings with Pigeons is a Cure-all or Prevention in any way shape or form for my birds or any bird contracting this lethal PMV Virus. But in “ONLY” my opinion, I really don’t think that the PMV or Paratyphoid ETC Shots or other Injections preventative measures conducted by others is a Cure-all for Pigeons contracting PMV or other Viruses Either. The mere fact that the Shots have to be given year after year as a prevention says it all!!! And with that said, I really don’t condone folks that may or may not give their birds the PMV shots or even condone the means or ways on how they Care, House their Birds with others that may have Contracted or Cured Birds with PMV or such… I really applaud such people(s) that have such Fortitude & Humanitarian ethics when it comes to the care of their Birds or Flock and I wish & Hope that others would be as just as Honest to other Fanciers in the Sport of Fancy Stock Breeders or Competition flyers & tell all, As I am with my Methods… Because then I would at least have a choice as too whether I want to Buy, Receive or Expose my birds near such Person(s) birds…!!! And My Choice would be “NO” if I was privy to such Information… I Thank you!!! The folks that speak Out & State on how they care & why they do what they do with their Birds that May or May not have been Exposed, Treated, Cured or that may be housed with such birds in their possession with PMV, Paratyphoid ETC Viruses, Diseases or Disorders…… 

Louie


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Vaccinations have a purpose--it is a prevention of future diseases. Many lives have been saved because of vaccinations and I am referring to humans.

PMV vaccination uses a dead virus although La Sota(?) may be a weakened live virus.


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## ccccrnr (Jun 15, 2010)

Pigeon Mumber Louie,

your website is very interesting. definitely something to think hard on if it has served you well for 40+years. thanks for the read

for shipping racers, i've been told that the birds shipped are suppose to have had a vac. at some point. don't know if that is a club thing or a combine thing. maybe i'll ask sometime.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

What am I suposed to do with a bird who comes down with PMV? Nobody wants them. I know what most ppl would but it's is a topic which is off limits on this site. I don't do that I feel I bred the bird I have to take care of it as long as it lives. And as for you seperating Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition Flyer and sombody who loves and cares for their birds. I'm both a person who cares for my birds and a racer and a pretty good one at that winning way more then my share of races. If I thought at all that those birds were getting the rest of my birds sick they wouldn't be here. But with what I've seen in all my years with pigeons the birds who get over PMV don't spead it.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Pigeon0446 said:


> What am I suposed to do with a bird who comes down with PMV? Nobody wants them. I know what most ppl would but it's is a topic which is off limits on this site. I don't do that I feel I bred the bird I have to take care of it as long as it lives. And as for you seperating Fancy Stock Breeder or Competition Flyer and sombody who loves and cares for their birds. I'm both a person who cares for my birds and a racer and a pretty good one at that winning way more then my share of races. If I thought at all that those birds were getting the rest of my birds sick they wouldn't be here. But with what I've seen in all my years with pigeons the birds who get over PMV don't spead it.


*What am I suposed to do with a bird who comes down with PMV?* This is a question you will have to answer for yourself. I can tell you that I normally immunize all my birds for PMV-1 each year with the Maine Biological PMV vaccine. I used a different vaccine this year (water Based) instead of oil based and it was worthless. before it was done I lost my entie group of younsters from last year. Those that I did not lose on the races came home showing extreme signs of PMV infection. None are left!

Here is an interesting link for you to ponder PMV-1 in pigeons is a Twin or Cousin of exotic newcastle in Fowl (specifically chickens)

http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/avian/Pigeons_and_END.htm
www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/newcastle.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/exotic-newcastle-disease-e-n-d-50538.html a whole link / discussion that was previously posted


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

What the *US Gov*. does when an animal gets a deadly virus is they put it to sleep...Be it a cow,chicken,horse,pigeon etc.....By doing so,they are protecting ALL the healthy creatures of that species to survive and prosper....Alamo


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Alamo said:


> What the *US Gov*. does when an animal gets a deadly virus is they put it to sleep...Be it a cow,chicken,horse,pigeon etc.....By doing so,they are protecting ALL the healthy creatures of that species to survive and prosper....Alamo


Perfect answer.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks John D
Dave


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

lawman said:


> *What am I suposed to do with a bird who comes down with PMV?* This is a question you will have to answer for yourself. I can tell you that I normally immunize all my birds for PMV-1 each year with the Maine Biological PMV vaccine. I used a different vaccine this year (water Based) instead of oil based and it was worthless. before it was done I lost my entie group of younsters from last year. Those that I did not lose on the races came home showing extreme signs of PMV infection. None are left!
> 
> Here is an interesting link for you to ponder PMV-1 in pigeons is a Twin or Cousin of exotic newcastle in Fowl (specifically chickens)
> 
> ...



Im sorry, but Im confused. Was it the water or the oil based that you foung worthless, so I know what not to use.


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## rx9s (Oct 19, 2007)

Oh Yea What the US Gov. does when an animal gets a deadly virus is they put it to sleep...Be it a cow,chicken,horse,pigeon etc.....By doing so,they are protecting ALL the healthy creatures of that species to survive ...One less Pigeon but save the Flock I say..


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The oil based is probably a dead virus. The water based is probably a weakened live virus. I would use the oil based dead virus because the bird may not even able to fight the weakened live virus so they may get one! So they got sick because you introduced something that they will get sick from. Common sense?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Alamo said:


> What the *US Gov*. does when an animal gets a deadly virus is they put it to sleep...Be it a cow,chicken,horse,pigeon etc.....By doing so,they are protecting ALL the healthy creatures of that species to survive and prosper....Alamo


Yeah, the gov't does that because it is cheaper (in the long run) and less risky.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

SouthTown Racers said:


> Im sorry, but Im confused. Was it the water or the oil based that you foung worthless, so I know what not to use.


Get the oil Based Maine Biological PMV-1 vaccine!!!!!!

I have three and four year old birds on my old bird team that were given this and none of them ever got sick or even showed signs of being sick. 

The Cheaper cost water based vaccine was a dead virus as well (you can also purchase live virus, but don't recommend this) the water based vaccine gave little if any immunity to the birds and I should have known better as cheaper does not necessarily mean better.

So an entire yearling old bird team was lost as a result along with some youngsters from this year’s crop. 

I won't make this mistake again that much is for certain!


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## Cortez (Jan 9, 2011)

Thank you all for the replies!


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