# Male or Female?



## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi everyone, 

I have a breeding pair of fantails. As I was observing them, I saw them billing and then one tried to mount the other. Of course, I presumed the one "on top" is the male and the other female. So I put a pink ring on the one I thought was the female, just so I can identify them. 

However, "the male" seems to be very shy and nervous around me, whereas "the female" is used to me now, and responds to my clicking. (It's been nearly two weeks I had them). 'The female' is however bigger, and frequently has her tail fanned out whereas the male hardly does this. 

I'm concerned about the size. I kept reading that the male is supposed to be bigger? When I feed them, the female goes straight for the food, whereas the male is scared and when it comes to eat, is very concious of every sound and movement, but he never comes to eat unless the female comes first. 

Lastly, it's the male that keeps sitting on the nest (during the day that is) and makes the cooing sound. I was thinking it's the female that most sits on the nest? 

This brings me to my question: Was I right in thinking that the one on top is automatically the male? If so, how do I understand these 'discrepancies'?

Any help is well appreciated!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The cock bird does sit on the nest with eggs usually midday, if the hen lays two eggs and they/one is are fertile then you know you have a pair.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> The cock bird does sit on the nest usually midday, if the hen lays two eggs and they/one is are fertile then you know you have a pair.


They did lay eggs while I was transporting them. The problem is I wasn't able to see which one laid eggs. Of course, one of them could have mated with another bird (which wasn't the other which I bought) from the bird sellers loft as there were other birds, but I saw them engaging in mutual preening and billing. Wouldn't this be an indication they are male and female?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is some extra infromation on fertility. 

"Fertile male / fertile female = two fertile eggs except when the sperm is blocked from reaching the egg 
Fertile male / infertile female = zero eggs 
Infertile male / fertile female = two infertile eggs 
Infertile male / infertile female = zero eggs 
Fertile female / fertile female = four infertile eggs 
Fertile female / infertile female = two infertile eggs 
Male any / male any = zero eggs"


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> They did lay eggs while I was transporting them. The problem is I wasn't able to see which one laid eggs. Of course, one of them could have mated with another bird from the bird sellers loft as there were other birds, but I saw them engaging in mutual preening and billing. Wouldn't this be an indication they are male and female?


no, but it is a good idication they are a pair.


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## ETphonehome (Jan 3, 2012)

The one that laid the egg is obviously the female. don't you know which of the two laid the eeg?.

One or two days before laying the egg is very easy to see which one is the female in most cases you can literally see the eeg on the back side of the pigeon because this become protruded, the vent of the female is also one or two days before laying a little red and a little swollen.

Posting a picture of the two will help people give you better suggestions.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> no, but it is a good idication they are a pair.


Anyway, when I moved them in the my loft, they didn't incubate the eggs, and kept moving the eggs away from the nest. I put the eggs back in the nest the next day, but again found after a few hours they had removed the eggs again. 

Is this because of the change of environment/houses or because they were infertile? 

Sorry if I ask dumb questions


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

ETphonehome said:


> The one that laid the egg is obviously the female. don't you know which of the two laid the eeg?.
> 
> One or two days before laying the egg is very easy to see which one is the female in most cases you can literally see the eeg on the back side of the pigeon because this become protruded, the vent of the female is also one or two days before laying a little red and a little swollen.
> 
> Posting a picture of the two will help people give you better suggestions.


Sure I'll post pictures soon. 

The thing is I bought them at night (didn't plan to, but I had to drive a few hours to the sellers place, got lost, and then eventually went there and it became dark) so I missed the details you mentioned. 

also in all honesty, I was too excited to pay attention to details and was just soo happy about buying the birdies


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Anyway, when I moved them in the my loft, they didn't incubate the eggs, and kept moving the eggs away from the nest. I put the eggs back in the nest the next day, but again found after a few hours they had removed the eggs again.
> 
> Is this because of the change of environment/houses or because they were infertile?
> 
> Sorry if I ask dumb questions


They do not recognize the eggs as theirs because of the move and the stress, so take them up and they should mate and she should lay more, at least you know you have a hen in there somewhere..lol.. time will tell if you have a cock bird too.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> They do not recognize the eggs as theirs because of the move and the stress, so take them up and they should mate and she should lay more, at least you know you have a hen in there somewhere..lol.. time will tell if you have a cock bird too.


Well they have been really touchy and getting things on lol, I shall keep you updated


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Well they have been really touchy and getting things on lol, I shall keep you updated


great, that shows they like your place. Im sure they will be nesting soon as you provided a nice place to do that.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> great, that shows they like your place. Im sure they will be nesting soon as you provided a nice place to do that.


Yep I've given them two nesting bows with tim' hay. I'll show you pictures of them when it stops raining here  


Is it after she's laid eggs I should leave food out for them all day?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Yep I've given them two nesting bows with tim' hay. I'll show you pictures of them when it stops raining here
> 
> 
> Is it after she's laid eggs I should leave food out for them all day?


yes, that way they can eat all they want when they want..esp the hen she will only get a few times to eat each day.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I have seen times when mating that the male will squat and the female will mount so if you only seen them mate only once you may very well have the cock and hen mixed up.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

beatlemike said:


> I have seen times when mating that the male will squat and the female will mount so if you only seen them mate only once you may very well have the cock and hen mixed up.


I just saw them do it again today, and the one I identified as the female was again on the bottom and the other mounted.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> I just saw them do it again today, and the one I identified as the female was again on the bottom and the other mounted.


you may see eggs in about 10 days. ,, that is in around 10 days. no exactness timing here.... then if you only have two eggs.. you can candle them at about 7 days from laying to see if they are fertile. so the waiting game begins. good luck


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> you may see eggs in about 10 days. ,, that is in around 10 days. no exactness timing here.... then if you only have two eggs.. you can candle them at about 7 days from laying to see if they are fertile. so the waiting game begins. good luck


She laid an egg today!  (21/04/12) I put some loose hay in the loft and it was a pleasure seeing the male take the straws over to the nest. What a hard-working pigi lol And then when he was satisfied, he came out in the aviary and flapped his wings for like 10 seconds. Was that the flying they do after an egg is laid? 

So the fact that I saw him on top of the female yday, does that mean there'll be another egg very soon? 

Anyway this confirms they're a pair. 

Now I've placed food and water in there so they can help themselves whenever they want. 

Is there anything else I need to be aware of at this stage? 

I've read that after the young are born and are about 6 weeks old, I should separate them from the parents. Is this really necessary since I only have a pair at the moment? Do the parents ever 'attack' their children at any stage like they do foreign birds? 

And the male btw is guarding his loft now. I've never seen him so active. 

Why was the male sitting on the nest yday then? is there any reason for that? 

A lot of questions, sorry and thanks in advance !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If your loft is large enough for 4 birds then there is no reason to separate them. In fact, you don't want to do that. They will recognize them as their babies even after they grow up. If you separate them, they won't. What are the measurements of your loft?
They will have another egg, as they have 2.

As far as the male sitting in the nest, they take turns. He sits during the day, and she at night.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> If your loft is large enough for 4 birds then there is no reason to separate them. In fact, you don't want to do that. They will recognize them as their babies even after they grow up. If you separate them, they won't. What are the measurements of your loft?
> They will have another egg, as they have 2.
> 
> As far as the male sitting in the nest, they take turns. He sits during the day, and she at night.


I know they take turns, but I thought that's after the egg has been laid. Why does the male sit on the nest when there aren't any eggs? Is he just chilling there? 

The loft is 3ftx2ftx5ft exc. the aviary. Of course, if this pair of eggs hatch, they'll be the first and the last. After that, it's plastic eggs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You just said she laid an egg yesterday.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

he was sitting in the nest before the egg was laid.. he must of been trying it out...lol..

there will be another egg hopefully about 45 or so hours after the first one was laid.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> he was sitting in the nest before the egg was laid.. he must of been trying it out...lol..
> 
> there will be another egg hopefully about 45 or so hours after the first one was laid.


Yh lol. He has actually been sitting in the nest for the last few days when there wasn't any eggs.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Yh lol. He has actually been sitting in the nest for the last few days when there wasn't any eggs.


are you sure he is not the she...lol.. did you see him top the other one?


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> are you sure he is not the she...lol.. did you see him top the other one?


lol Well I saw the 'he' on top again yesterday like I mentioned, and I saw him on two other occasions being on top. Also, when I laid some nesting material for them, it was 'he' who was running with it to the nest whilst the 'she' was sitting down. I also noticed the she having a red swollen like bottom yday. The 'she' was also not sitting in the nest during the day, but now is in the night. So what do you think, is my sexing of the pair correct? 

But if that is true then the male is a real wimp lol


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> lol Well I saw the 'he' on top again yesterday like I mentioned, and I saw him on two other occasions being on top. Also, when I laid some nesting material for them, it was 'he' who was running with it to the nest whilst the 'she' was sitting down. I also noticed the she having a red swollen like bottom yday. The 'she' was also not sitting in the nest during the day, but now is in the night. So what do you think, is my sexing of the pair correct?
> 
> But if that is true then the male is a real wimp lol


ok that is good, sounds like you have a true pair there..which may be family in about the second week of may sometime..


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

But today they were both different as in they were really 'focused' and they're acting quite aggressive tbh. I wasn't able to clean the loft out today as I do daily because they both started attacking me lol. I was barely able to just top up the feed and water. 

How do you deal with this with your birds?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I ignore them and go about my business..lol.. maybe a soft "stop that shoo" in between.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What are the dimensions of your loft? My birds never become aggressive when I'm in there. Some only if I reach into their box. But that doesn't stop me. I'm a lot bigger than they are. LOL.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

spirit wings said:


> you may see eggs in about 10 days. ,, that is in around 10 days. no exactness timing here.... then if you only have two eggs.. you can candle them at about 7 days from laying to see if they are fertile. so the waiting game begins. good luck


Sorry if this is a daft question, but is it necessary to do the light/egg test to see if the eggs are fertile? I mean if they're infertile, the birds will abandon them anyway right? So I guess what I want to ask is, if there anything wrong in not doing this test? I just don't wanna upset them as they are quite stubborn in not wanting to get up from the nest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

newbie001 said:


> Sorry if this is a daft question, but is it necessary to do the light/egg test to see if the eggs are fertile? I mean if they're infertile, the birds will abandon them anyway right? So I guess what I want to ask is, if there anything wrong in not doing this test? I just don't wanna upset them as they are quite stubborn in not wanting to get up from the nest.


You don't have to candle the eggs. People who don't have the patience to wait and see if they hatch do that. Usually people who race. Because they are anxious to get as many hatched as possible for their team. These are your pets. It isn't all that important. If they hatch, great. If not, they'll try again. Usually they are fertile anyway. Wish that wasn't the case. They're probably fertile, but if you don't want to bother the pair, then there is no reason to. Just assume that they most likely will hatch in about 18 days.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Forgot to add................if you are nervous about taking the eggs to check them, and the birds wing slap you while taking them, you could easily have one knocked from your hand and break it. It has happened. Might as well just wait to find out.


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## newbie001 (Aug 22, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> You don't have to candle the eggs. People who don't have the patience to wait and see if they hatch do that. Usually people who race. Because they are anxious to get as many hatched as possible for their team. These are your pets. It isn't all that important. If they hatch, great. If not, they'll try again. Usually they are fertile anyway. Wish that wasn't the case. They're probably fertile, but if you don't want to bother the pair, then there is no reason to. Just assume that they most likely will hatch in about 18 days.


Makes complete sense  Thanks yet again!


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