# Hand reared Woody developed fits



## harryf200

During the Summer, my son found a Woodpigeon chick under a tree. No nest was in sight so he brought it home. I fed it a mix of my own "pigeon milk" that I have used successfully with feral pigeons and Collared Doves in the past. He thrived and is now a large Juvenile (male) starting to show some adult plumage. However, something has gone wrong!

He has recently started to have ad hoc fits, when he seems to lose coordination, his neck twists and he ends up as a flapping bundle of feathers on the floor. When I say, ad hoc, he had two of them in the evening about 4 days ago, a mile one yesterday (he just propped himself up against the side of the open door pet carrier he is roosting in inside the house.) And this evening, we had another bad fit on the scale of the first two. 

He then responds well to gentle handling - soothing noises and stroking around the neck, when the neck twisting eventually stops. He is then more than willing to take to the hand and snuggle up, burying his head as best he can like a chick with its mother. It takes a good 30-60 minutes before he starts to feel okay, when after he begins to preen, take some food and generally behave as if nothing had happened. However, in addition to these fits, he also seems to keep coming over as if he has a temperature, fluffing up the feathers as sick pigeons do.

Any ideas how I should treat this?

Direct communications very welcome - [email protected] - but please share them here anyway.


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## Skyeking

Hi Harry,

Please read the link, it is possible your wood pigeon suffers from PMV. 
The link is written by one of our experts in this disease. It cannot treated with medicine, but with good supportive care. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html


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## John_D

Hi

As he is hand reared and in a safe environment, I guess it would be difficult for him to have picked up a viral or bacterial infection - unless he has recently been in close proximity to any other woodies (or ferals) who could be sick, or in some 'accommodation' previously occupied by a sick bird. Otherwise my first thought would have been PMV or Salmonellosis.

What food do you provide for him? It is possible for neurological symptoms to be triggered by toxicity, which can come through a bad batch of feed from wherever you source it. Another possibility is a vitamin deficiency, depending on what he is eating. Toxic reactions can also come from something in the environment - common household products, nibbling on the wrong houseplant ...

What are his droppings like? They can sometimes help to identify possible illnesses, in conjunction with other symptoms.

Really, getting a vet to analyse a sample of poop is probably going to be the first recourse for an unknown condition. Do you have a bird-friendly vet you can consult?


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## pdpbison

Salmonella?


Can you post some good close up images of the poops?


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## Feefo

Can you try calcium? Indoor birds would not have the exposure to viruses or bacteria that wildies have, so infection is not so likely, but they can suffer from calcium and vitamin D3 deficiency. Even in the wild, young woodies are susceptible to this

With this in mind I did a search for bird+fits+ calcium and found this on the *Birdcare Company *website: 

_We often get calls and e-mails from people whose birds are showing a number of different symptoms of poor nerve and/or muscle function. *The most common are fits*, twitching, neck twisting (stargazing), poor flying, inability to perch properly and twirling. Twirling is when the bird gets onto its back and turns around in an attempt to get back upright.

Although there are a number of nasty possible causes of this sort of behaviour (infections, epilepsy etc) by far the most common cause is a simple shortage of calcium in the nerves and muscles. So it is easily fixed by feeding Calcivet (CalciBoost) directly into the beak. This can be repeated every two hours or so until the bird recovers. We then recommend that you give your bird Calcivet (CalciBoost) five days a week for about a month to ensure that the bones are well topped up with calcium. _

Worth trying!


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## harryf200

John_D said:


> Hi
> 
> As he is hand reared and in a safe environment, I guess it would be difficult for him to have picked up a viral or bacterial infection - unless he has recently been in close proximity to any other woodies (or ferals) who could be sick, or in some 'accommodation' previously occupied by a sick bird. Otherwise my first thought would have been PMV or Salmonellosis.
> 
> What food do you provide for him? It is possible for neurological symptoms to be triggered by toxicity, which can come through a bad batch of feed from wherever you source it. Another possibility is a vitamin deficiency, depending on what he is eating. Toxic reactions can also come from something in the environment - common household products, nibbling on the wrong houseplant ...
> 
> What are his droppings like? They can sometimes help to identify possible illnesses, in conjunction with other symptoms.
> 
> Really, getting a vet to analyse a sample of poop is probably going to be the first recourse for an unknown condition. Do you have a bird-friendly vet you can consult?


Hi John
You have given me a lot to consider!
All the food is from a local pet shop although in addition to some sunflower seeds from there, he's also had a few from Tesco! (Sunflower seeds are his favourite, and he refuses wheat altogether. ) Otherwise, I'm giving a variety of foods from split corn, wild bird mixture and corn free seed mix.

I suppose there is a risk the cage is contaminated, so I'll deal with that. Otherwise he's not had any contact with other pigeons since before he was passed to me some months ago.

The droppings ... they recently have turned into a green colour, sometimes purely liquid, sometimes a little more solid but not solid in the normal way, which I recognise from the past when I have had sick birds.

I did wonder about the environmental impact. He is in a back room where I also work on this laptop. Surface pace is limited and he has always been sited on top of an old boiler - nice and warm. (I have only introduced him to the cage to restrict flight during some parts of the day but, as is my usual practice, I did not "cage" him as a chick or fledgling, and even now, I generally leave the cage door wide open when I am in the room. I did wonder if carbon monoxide might be a problem but I have a detector above the cage by the ceiling and it shows no sign of the gas being present. (The room is well ventilated anyway.) Besides, I'd not have associated the symptoms I have seen with carbon monoxide poisoning, and it would be affecting me also, I think. (I've been poisoned with it once in the distance past and remember what it felt like - tired, headache and a feeling of being detached from the World, which I nearly was - permanently!)


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Salmonella?
> 
> 
> Can you post some good close up images of the poops?


Here's one shot. I can't get any closer with this camera. I'll try to get a better shot with my other one, which isn't close to hand. The clour balance ain't great - the green is a little brighter (compare white paper, which isn't that grey!)


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## harryf200

Feefo said:


> Can you try calcium? Indoor birds would not have the exposure to viruses or bacteria that wildies have, so infection is not so likely, but they can suffer from calcium and vitamin D3 deficiency. Even in the wild, young woodies are susceptible to this
> 
> With this in mind I did a search for bird+fits+ calcium and found this on the *Birdcare Company *website:
> 
> _We often get calls and e-mails from people whose birds are showing a number of different symptoms of poor nerve and/or muscle function. *The most common are fits*, twitching, neck twisting (stargazing), poor flying, inability to perch properly and twirling. Twirling is when the bird gets onto its back and turns around in an attempt to get back upright.
> 
> Although there are a number of nasty possible causes of this sort of behaviour (infections, epilepsy etc) by far the most common cause is a simple shortage of calcium in the nerves and muscles. So it is easily fixed by feeding Calcivet (CalciBoost) directly into the beak. This can be repeated every two hours or so until the bird recovers. We then recommend that you give your bird Calcivet (CalciBoost) five days a week for about a month to ensure that the bones are well topped up with calcium. _
> 
> Worth trying!


Thanks - I'll try that (and bare it in mind for the future, too.)


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## Feefo

The worry with wood pigeons is that they seem to lack the resistance of feral pigeons to disease and need to be treated fairly quickly if they become ill. Do you have any antibiotics?


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## harryf200

Feefo said:


> The worry with wood pigeons is that they seem to lack the resistance of feral pigeons to disease and need to be treated fairly quickly if they become ill. Do you have any antibiotics?


Unfortunately no antibiotics, but then, I suppose if it _were_ PMV, they'd not make much difference anyway, PMV being a viral infection.


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## Feefo

> if it were PMV, they'd not make much difference anyway, PMV being a viral infection


Yes, I know. I was thinking of the poops and possible bacterial infection. We have had a lot of deaths among our resident woodies, post mortems showed no connection between the deaths but the last three we have treated promptly with Baytril and Flagyl and they have survived. But none of them had fits.


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## harryf200

Feefo said:


> Yes, I know. I was thinking of the poops and possible bacterial infection. We have had a lot of deaths among our resident woodies, post mortems showed no connection between the deaths but the last three we have treated promptly with Baytril and Flagyl and they have survived. But none of them had fits.


Sorry to hear that about your Woodies. Never more disheartening than when birds you nurse back to health die in care of something else.

I'll be seeing the vet a.s.a.p. on Monday. (I hope the treatment doesn't cost much ... I have nothing like the funds I did 15 years ago when I had my refuge for the disabled birds.) The bird had another fit this evening.


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## Feefo

Don't let them put him down. Even avian vets don't know very much about woodies (mine is an avian vet). Try antibiotics and calcium but if you give Baytril give the calcium well between the Baytril doses as calcium can bind Baytril. I give Baytril only once a day, but John's avian vet prefers twice.


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## harryf200

Feefo said:


> Don't let them put him down. Even avian vets don't know very much about woodies (mine is an avian vet). Try antibiotics and calcium but if you give Baytril give the calcium well between the Baytril doses as calcium can bind Baytril. I give Baytril only once a day, but John's avian vet prefers twice.


No worries - we've invested too much in this bird to give up on it! (Yeah, I know it's not good to become emotionally attached to rescued birds because a lot of them die anyway, but some of them just get under the skin and we can bond with them just as they do us!)

I am assuming the Baytril can only be obtained via a vet (in the UK.)


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## pdpbison

Hi Harry, 



I think you would do well to regard his affliction as a Bacterial infection effecting his Liver and maybe effecting parts of his Nervous system via Toxins produced Bacterially or Anaerobically.


Baytril ( or Enroflaxyn, or Cipro ) would be a good one to try.

Maybe also add Metronidazole just for good measure.


They can get germs from people, kids especially, if their Beaks are touched or if their Foods are touched...this might be an e-coli or a Salmonella or who knows.


Keep him warm, and, maybe have the famous 'ACV-Water for his drinking Water also.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## harryf200

Thanks for the advice, Phil. I will, indeed, seek antibiotics from a bird-friendly vet just as soon as I can reach her on Monday.


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## pdpbison

Hi Harry, 



How 'bout some nice images of Mr. Woody himself?




Phil
Las Vegas


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> 
> 
> How 'bout some nice images of Mr. Woody himself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


One of his looking pretty miserable was taken today. The picture of him on the laptop keyboard was yesterday, and the other, just a few days after I got him. (He can be quite ferocious when people he doesn't like the look of try to touch him, so my absent wife calls him Eagle. I usually try not to a fix names to the birds I have rescued - it helps me a little to keep emotionally unattached and that makes it easier for me if they don't survive, but I'm failing to stay unattached in this case!)


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## pdpbison

He's adorable...


Well, keep posting some poop images each day, and, any other details you can note.


How is his appetite?


And, what is he eating?



Phil
Lv


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## harryf200

Latest news. Two more fits today and the top of the bill has become pink, which I understand indicates it has a temperature. But he still preens (the feathers are a little scruffy but not greasy, but I suspect that's more to do with a gentle moult), he quietly grunts at me when I'm near and still displays the gentle beak snapping. (I'm not used to the grunts and beak snapping with the feral birds I've handled in the past - I presume these are communications peculiar to Woodies, although I did wonder if the beak snapping was copying my mouth opening and closing when I speak. Anyone else witness this behaviour with a _wild _Woody?)


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## John_D

harryf200 said:


> Latest news. Two more fits today and the top of the bill has become pink, which I understand indicates it has a temperature. But he still preens (the feathers are a little scruffy but not greasy, but I suspect that's more to do with a gentle moult), he quietly grunts at me when I'm near and still displays the gentle beak snapping. (I'm not used to the grunts and beak snapping with the feral birds I've handled in the past - I presume these are communications peculiar to Woodies, although I did wonder if the beak snapping was copying my mouth opening and closing when I speak. Anyone else witness this behaviour with a _wild _Woody?)


We noticed with a couple of our woodies that they would make a short, quiet 'hmm' at us. We would have 'hmm' back and forth conversations with them. I guess they knew what it meant, anyway.


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## pdpbison

How 'bout some good, well lit, in focus, close up, poop images?


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## harryf200

John_D said:


> We noticed with a couple of our woodies that they would make a short, quiet 'hmm' at us. We would have 'hmm' back and forth conversations with them. I guess they knew what it meant, anyway.


Yes, that's the one. But the beak snapping is the curious one. I find if I copy it with my mouth or fingers, or even initiate it, the bird will sometimes become "intimate" and try to "preen" my fingers or lips (if it could reach them!) But for the most part, it's like that gentle grunt - 'You snap your lips at me and I'll snap my beak back, or t'other way about.'


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> He's adorable...
> 
> 
> Well, keep posting some poop images each day, and, any other details you can note.
> 
> 
> How is his appetite?
> 
> 
> And, what is he eating?
> 
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Sorry, I forgot to reply fully. 

Appetite isn't great but he is eating. He's going for small seeds or his favourite Sunflower seeds.


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## pdpbison

Young Pigeons or Doves will sometimes try and imitate human speech.


Their Larynx does not permit a mechanical condition with which to do so, but, they will try, and, sometimes, they will open and close their Beak to the exact same number of syllables, of whatever one has just said.


After a while, they accept that they can not do it, and, they give up.


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## pdpbison

Without a Video of what you are trying to describe, I do not quite get what is going on.


They do resopnd to various facial and mouth or hand cues, as far as what they interpret you to be 'saying' in those ways.

You would have to interpret his reponse, in order to guess what he has interpreted your cues to be in his responding.


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## Feefo

I haven't seen the beak snapping in woodies that old, just in nestlings as a warning

I think it is good that you moved him to somewhere cooler, healthy woodies have a lower tolerance of heat than feral pigeons and prefer to have fresh air. In the hot weather when they become overheated they do the "gular flutter" which involves opening their beaks , fluttering the throat and becoming restless and anxious.


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Young Pigeons or Doves will sometimes try and imitate human speech.
> 
> 
> Their Larynx does not permit a mechanical condition with which to do so, but, they will try, and, sometimes, they will open and close their Beak to the exact same number of syllables, of whatever one has just said.
> 
> 
> After a while, they accept that they can not do it, and, they give up.


That's very interesting. The fact that they replicate the number of syllables means they can count, I suppose. (I wonder up to how much.)

I recall seeing an "intelligence" test for wild birds that was set up on the top of a building and filmed for TV. The idea was to find out which type of the wild birds that visited the area was the brightest, so the test would become increasing complex/difficult after each one. As I recall, most of the feral pigeons dropped out fairly early on in the experiment, but one of them lasted the course and beat all the other birds. (Note, there were no members of the Crow family competing.) Thus, the feral pigeons, as a breed, proved to be one of the least and most intelligent for the purpose of that experiment. It seems to fit with my observations of the feral and ex-racing birds that I used to keep - most were not very bright but a handful seemed very sharp. For example, two of the earliest birds I had learnt how to attract my attention from within the aviary, and I was in the house by a window overlooking the upper part of the aviary, when they wanted their feeding bowl topping up . They taught the same technique to their two off-spring. (They were disabled birds - bad wing breaks - and I allowed them to raise a pair of chicks to see if having youngsters might stimulate some recovery. It did with one of them but the other proved too damaged for the "psychotherapeutic " environment created by the youngsters to make much of an impact.) However, none of the other birds with them picked up the technique - they simply clucked about like hens when I came outside the house, anticipating feeding rather than actively asking for it - ior so it seemed to me. It was a long white after they had gone to "Pigeon Heaven" (!) that I acquired another bird who used a similar technique, and he was a murderous, big bruiser ex-racing pigeon.


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Without a Video of what you are trying to describe, I do not quite get what is going on.
> 
> 
> They do resopnd to various facial and mouth or hand cues, as far as what they interpret you to be 'saying' in those ways.
> 
> You would have to interpret his reponse, in order to guess what he has interpreted your cues to be in his responding.


He snaps the beak open and shut. He usually initiates this silent exchange but will also respond if I start first.


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## pdpbison

Gosh, I have not seen any 'Beak Snapping' myself other than in 'Peepers' or 'Squeakers' who are in the Nest, trying to act FIERCE to rebuff a tresspasser ( me of course ) who is getting too close.


So...no idea on that one.



Something I have seen two times here...one, with a non-releaseable Pigeon, the other, with a pre-release release-able one I hardly knew at all, other than he'd been ill, we did some meds, he got well, and, was in the free fly, pending release.

The non releaseable one was three years earlier, and, he escaped on accident ( he flew well, but could not eat on his own) and I presume, perished...so the two likely never met, and, definitely never saw eachother here.


Anyway, what both of them did in seperate occasions, was this - 


I'd be working at my Desk, and, the Pigeopn would be a few feet away, on a Book Case top or whatever, and, 'mooing'.

I would feel that the 'mooing' was to me, so, looking at them, I would say "Are you 'mooing' to me?"


They'd pause, look vividly at me, and, resume 'mooing'.


I'd say "Well, ummmm, what is it you want?"


Again a brief pause and a vidid look.


I'd ask, "Well, do you need Seeds, are you hungry?"


The Pigeon would pause, stand up tallish, look right at me, and, look merely 'blank' for a moment.


I'd say, "Uhhhh, well, do you need Water? Are the Waterers become dry?"


And, he'd pause, look at me vividly, and, slowly, Theatriclly even, bend over and pretend to drink as if there were a Puddle he was standing at.


Then standing up again, he'd look at me vividly.


He wanted Water...and the Waterers had run dry.


The one non-releaseable who would do this, I knew him, and he knew many words in English.

If he wanted me to feed him, and, had looked merely 'blank; when asked if he'd wanted Water...when asked if he wished to be fed, he'd pause, look at me vivdly, and, do what I called "The Happy Dance", where, he would spin around Beak pointing up, Wings flapping, and just do this wild sort of Dance thing in-place, for like five seconds, then look vivdly at me again, whereupon I understood I was to round up some Seeds, and, we'd do our Seed-Pop time.


The other, was a wild Feral Pigeon, who I did not know, and, with whom I had not had much dealings, other than I had overseen whatever his recovery and medical regimens had been, and I had not gotten to know hom nor had any special closeness or interactions.



Interesting, huh?


The impemnding fledglings I have had who were trying to imitate human speech, or, who, at any rate, would open and close their Beaks to the same cadance and syllable count as whatever I had just said.


They would do this perfectly even if my sentence had been at least as long as this one is...which is to say, well into twenty odd syllables anyway.

The times I had seen this, they were really trying, pensive, focused, had flown over to be with me a foot or so away, and, it would go on for maybe fifteen or twenty minutes or so.

Usually I had to break it off to go do something else, but, they would resume again later, and, then, that would be it.


They would not do it again after that, far as I had seen.





Phil
Lv


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## harryf200

ll yesterday without having a fit, the faeces looked normal and - best sign of all? - he began to be a little Bolshi, as he had been before all this started. All looking promising. However, 14.20 this afternoon, he had another fit. I gently restrained him and as the worst of it ended he did the usual "cuddling up". But he soon after came around sufficiently to take a walk (across this keyboard), then cam back to sit on my forearm. he was there for not much more than 2 minutes when he started to lean into my upper arm and his head started to turn very gently - obviously the forerunner to the main fit, which followed quickly afterwards. It seemed a bad one and, for a moment, I thought he was about to expire. (I suspect if it had been a wild bird it may well have done, with a heart attack, what with the shock of the fit and being held at the same time.) However, he recovered very quickly this time and, while now quiet, is sitting back in the padded pet carrier (with the flap shut, lest he fits again and falls out), perched on a feeding bowl.

He is now getting Baytril anti-biotic, calcium and Flagyl syrup. So, here is hoping we see an improvement within a few days.


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## Pigeonlove

I'm so sorry this is happening to him. I hope the medicine helps him to feel better and recover. Joni


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## pdpbison

Hi harry, 


Start from the top if you would...and, describe in as much detail as possible, what you have observed of these 'fits'?


Phil
Lv


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Hi harry,
> 
> 
> Start from the top if you would...and, describe in as much detail as possible, what you have observed of these 'fits'?
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


After the first fit yesterday (ironically, about 20 minutes after I gave him some antibiotic) I calmed him down, and he decided to sit on my arm close to my torso. After a few minutes here the second fit began. It started is gently.. He began to lean over to the right side, supporting his body by leaning against me. The head/neck then starts to move in the same direction, back and forth, slowly and gentle. Then, there is a massive spasm, or rather a series of them, sending the neck twisting the head around, folding it under the body, pushing him into a ball He then flaps vigorously, tumbling around. When this stops, the wings are usually spread out, seemingly to support the body (the feet are not gripping the ground but still curled up) and they are rigid. After maybe half a minute (it might be less - the period probably seems longer!) he starts to relax and sits on the ground level for maybe a minute, after when it is not unusual for him to stand, walk a bit, and then ... preen! But the fit may reoccur quite soon after wards, as in maybe 5 minutes. It seems it has spates of the fits - one, two, maybe three and more unusually, four is a short space of time. And then, no more. However, yesterday was unusual. Yesterday he had four fits all in a space of about 15-20 minutes I guess, and a fifth about an hour or so later. After that one, once he'd calmed, he didn't want to walk or preen, but just sat down, and fluffed up, closing one eye (which I think he fit during a fit.) He later perched on the side of a feeding bowl, snoozing. 

He's a little more perky this morning, but generally fluffed up and snoozing, maybe because it's cold even in this heated room I've not seen him eat yet and it's already 09.30. 

I have not observed any fits since the last of them yesterday, but I suppose it's possible I may not have seen any others.


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## pdpbison

Hi harry,



Okay...


What meds has he had?


Phil
Lv


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## Feefo

It is comforting that he preens after a fit. 

I wish that we knew more about woodies. Although knowledge or racing pigeons and nursing ferals gives us an insight into what can be the problem and in many ways the two species are similar, there are marked differences in their temperament, susceptibility to different diseases and reaction to illness and this must be kept in mind.

The fits that you describe are very similar to what I observed in a woodie nestling that I had been called to the vet's to collect a few weeks ago. 

When I arrived the vet (not my own vet) told me that she had decided to euthanase as the baby had started having fits that she thought were neurological in origin. However, she had missed the fact that it had severe canker. I don't know to what extent the canker and the fits were connected but I wondered whether it was a reaction to pain or pressure?


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## pdpbison

Hi feefo,



I think there is a good possibility that quite a few kinds of infections could underlie these sorts of 'fits'.

PPMV being one, of course...Canker, another...Salmonella, Staff, toxins in the GI from Bacteria or Yeasts...


Sad and odd so few Avian Vets are aware of the possible symptoms of Canker, or what to look for, or, even to look at all, even when it is obvious to anyone familiar.


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## pdpbison

harry...

How about some good close up fresh poop images?


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## harryf200

pdpbison said:


> Hi harry,
> 
> 
> 
> Okay...
> 
> 
> What meds has he had?
> 
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Baytril
Flagyl Syrup
Gem Liquid Calcium

These courses started yesterday afternoon, so I would presume it would be 3-4 days before the Baytril and Flagyl would show some affect on a bacterial infection, and I imagine it will take a day or so longer for the Calcium.


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## Dobato

Hi Harry, sorry I am a little late to this thread, thanks for rescuing this little guy and your concern for him.

If it's not too much trouble, could you tell us what the weight for your little guy is, and how much of the Baytril and Flagyl and calcium (by the way, the calcium should be given a number of hours away from the Baytril) are you currently giving and what strength are they at? Although vets do get things right most times, sometimes it's good just to double check things, as if they are not seeing a lot of birds they can be off on the recommendations for dosing. Do try and keep him pretty warm, as when feeling like this we want to have them in an area that is around 90 degrees (32C).

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## pdpbison

I'd be tempted to include Metronidazole in his regimen...


I had one last year who was having intermittent and severe 'fits', and for some reason I did not think it was PPMV.


He was miserable, an Adult, Wild, and he would be fine for hours, then just thrash and flip over and so on, it was difficult trying to find ways of protecting him from harm with these fits.


Anyway, I did Metronidazole, and, Baytril, for a long stretch, three weeks or so I think, and, seemed like we got it cleared up alright...where, his fits began easing up fairly soon, and, tapered down to nothing then after a while.


We may have even done this twice, repeating it after a couple weeks of intermission, I am not sure now...but, regardless, he has been alright since.


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## Feefo

> I'd be tempted to include Metronidazole in his regimen...


The active ingredieent of Flagyl Syrup *is* metronidazole so she is already receiving that.



> I did Metronidazole, and, Baytril, for a long stretch, three weeks or so I think


If you give Metronidazole for more than 14 days there is some risk liver damage, so you have to weigh this risk against the benefit of extended treatment. Although liver damage is rare It is not a risk I would take unless I knew that the condition the pigeon was suffering from and knew it required metronidazole (as with canker). Personally I would never give extended treatment of metronidazole without knowing what organism I was dealing with, whether it was sensitive to Metronidazole and whether a 14 day course had failed to clear it up. 

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi feefo,


Oh, I missed the 'Flagyl' mention I guess...ooops.


Actually, I think I did a week on a week off, a week on, with the Metro on the one I was referencing.


Tired brain, sorry...


Phil
L v


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## Feefo

Thanks for clarifying, Phil. 

I have recently had sick woodies that get better with 10 days of Baytril and Flagyl, then two weeks later suddenly relapse and die and have wondered whether the Flagyl caused their death (doubtful) or whether it would have saved them had I given a second course afte a 7 day break. 

I am just about to send one off for a post mortem that I hope will answer some of my questions although so far PMs haven't given me the information I need.


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## harryf200

Hi Folks.
Sorry I've not responded to all posts hitherto. I've not been on line very much as Life got in the way, if you know what I mean. But I thought I'd update on on progress, or lack of.

Treatment began with Baytril - c. 0.2ml, Flagyl - c. 0.2 - 0.3, and Gem Calcium - 0.3 ml per day. He accepts it without a lot of protest - I'd generally consider that an unhealthy sign, but I'm not entirely surer since he got used to handling and a syringe when he was a chick.

He had a couple of fits the day after treatment began and then there was a run on three-four days when all was fine. Then there were three nasty ones in the space of about 1 hour. After than, yet another long run (i.e. about a week) - looking good, feeding, getting "cheeky" and generally starting to get back to normal. So, I thought we'd cracked it. But then he had three more bad fits and one mild one. This time it's really knocked him out. I'm not sure if there is some neurological damage or if it's just a muscle tear but, since the last one, he has his neck slightly on the turn most of the time, especially when sleeping, when he will sometimes rest his head against a bar or thje edge of a soft curtain I have put low across the front of the cage. (I generally keep the cage front open but keep it closed when I'm not around or if he's been fitting. I have lined the inside of the cage, fully on the back and sides, and about 1/2 to 3/4 up on the sides, with a soft blanket to minimise damage when the fits occur.) He spends a lot of time sleeping. He is still eating but has no great appetite, as evidenced by the lack of seeds scattered about the floor. He will, however, venture out of the cage maybe once a day. I usually encourage him to perch on a covered chair near where I am sitting now, which he will do "happily" for several hours at a time, but he will sometimes drop onto the table and walk across to me here, and sit on the keyboard of the laptop when I'm typing.

So, all in all, it's not looking good, but I'm not about to give up. I shall keep up the Calcium after the antibiotics finish - I've probably got another weeks worth of Baytril as a friendly vet gave me a small quantity of it - and she also got me a container of Nutrobal calcium powder to sprinkle over the food.


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## Feefo

You could test for PMV , Retford Poultry will do it dor £10. Libby Harris there will give you instructions on how to get a blood sample safely. 

I would also go for a general bacteriology test, that would have to wait until he has been off antibiotics for about 10 days. For £10 they will do cultures and sensitivity tests, send you a report including recommendations on antibiotics.

I have used them twice recently, two lame pigeons tested positive for (a high burden of) e-coli and streptococcus spp (but NOT salmonella) and a post mortem on a woodie showed that she had died of aspergillosis.

If you want to test for salmonella you have to send 5 days worth of poops, but if it was salmonella the Baytril would have dealt with it.

If you telephone them now they will send you a testing kit (you don't have to pay for that until you use it). They will send swabs, test tubes and instructions.

Retford Poultry Partnership

Unit 5 Stirling Rd
West Carr Ind Est
Retford
Nottinghamshire
DN22 7SN 

01777 703011


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## harryf200

I am afraid the pigeon has died. After another week free of fits, he had two one day and another two on the following one. He never recovered from the last, lapsing into unconsciousness a few minutes after it had stopped, panting and finally expiring. I presume his heart gave out. I enquired about having an autopsy but was advised it would cost around £300! My meagre pension is not much more than the minimum wage so such a cost is out of the question.

I have had many injured or sick rescued birds die (especially Woodpigeons, although most of the feral birds all survived) and I have mostly taken this in my stride, but this little guy was different and I miss him ...


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## amyable

Harry,

I am so sorry to hear this news. He put up such a brave fight.

It must have been very frustrating for you not to know how to help after having so much experience with rescues in the past. It's a blessing he had you around to see him safely through to the end.

Thanks for letting us know though as I had been following your story. I just wish it had been a happier outcome for you and your little friend.

Janet x


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## John_D

Retford Poultry will do autopsy for £70.50 

See earlier post by Feefo

Still, even that can be a bit steep for some of us

Such a shame after so much care


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## Feefo

I am so sorry....the ones that are the most damaged, the most dependent on us, are the hardest to lose. And he has such a brave baby!

Thank you for giving him the love and the care that he deserved.

I don't think an autopsy would help. The best outcome for me has been when they confirm that there was nothing that could be done, but that is cold comfort at a high price.

Cynthia


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## jonnybravo

Sorry to hear the outcome Harry. I know just how hard it is when they die, particularly when you've been caring for them for so long. I've been working with juvenilles at a wildlife hospital for a few months now and it's sad enough seeing them released because of how attached you become. Your case reminded me of one i had over christmas. One of the juvs was stargazing and when i went near the cage he'd have a fit and fly upwards into the roof of the cage. This was incredibly upsetting as he was doing himself a lot of damage and was bleeding. I was told by one of the senior volunteers that they'd seen this before and that the vet had told them it was Newcastle's disease? I have to admit i'm dubious about some of the diagnoses particularly as it is incredibly challenging. In the end we agreed that the bird was doing itself so much harm that the kindest thing would be to pts. I was in tears. Next time i will certainly persuade them to use calvicet just to see if it makes a difference and i'll try to consult people on here before letting the seniors pts.


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## Feefo

> I was told by one of the senior volunteers that they'd seen this before and that the vet had told them it was Newcastle's disease?


It sounds as if the little one had *Pigeon Paramyxovirus*. Given time and supportive care a lot of pigeons recover completely.

This is from the DEFRA website and explains how Pigeon Paramyxovirus relates to Newcastles Disease (this is called Exotic Newcastles Disease in the US) in poultry, which is the one that causes panic and mass culls.

_Paramyxovirus (PMV) of pigeons is a virus belonging to the Newcastle Disease (ND) group of bird-specific paramyxoviruses, known as Avian paramyxovirus type 1 (APMV-1). It causes very similar symptoms in pigeons to those caused by ND in domestic poultry. Infections are usually restricted to pigeons and occur quite frequently. Although, the pigeon-adapted strain does not usually spread to poultry, outbreaks have occurred linked to feed contaminated by the faeces of infected pigeons. _.


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