# Not cankerpij, but still in need! Please help!



## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

*Rescue Fledgling*

So I'm with my friends at this park, and were watching pigeons (they're my only friends who appreciate pijes!) and then this hurt one comes stumbling in front of us! we tried to catch her, but she ran under this huge truckthing and it took us an hour and a half to get her out!
Not soon enough we were striding home proudly with a beautiful fledgling in our arms. 
Anyway, She looks very dehydrated and hungry. Nothing in crop, and sunken eyes. Keel bone sticking faaarrr out! No name yet, but It'll come to me soon.  Shes about as old as November was when I found him, 21-25 days. And exactly the same problem! A big cut on the left wing! (exactly what he was like!! so strange!) She looks a little worse than he did though... What do I do about the cut!?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

eating and drinking out of bowls already! Awh, they grow up so fast!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ok.. No one is ganna tell me what to do, so Im going with my instincts!
I warmed her up, and then gave her a trail of seeds leading to her water bowl, she drNk, but still (obviously) looks dehydrated. I examined her further, andnthe results are thet she has two minor looking cuts on her wing, but bad enough so that she cant fly.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. I am sorry nobody replied. This Forum can be very odd like that sometimes and I have never figured it out. People will reply all day long to someone's post where the Pigeon is in stable condition but gloss over threads where the Pigeon is critical (?!)

OK, you have done an *awesome* job so far. 3 things are of utmost importance now:

*1) WARMTH:* keep her in a place where the ambient air temperature is at least 75 degrees F (that'd be 24 degrees C...yes...pretty warm). If you canot provide a well-heated room, use an electric pad set on low under a layer of towel, box or carrier half-covered.
Your buddy has ZERO insulation right now...they can get cold easily and die of pneumonia. keep her warm and check the temperature of her feet and body for clamminess.

*2) FOOD* ~ Your bud is emaciated...a trail of seed and a dish of seed isn't enough. She needs to gain weight FAST. Tell your mom or dad or whoever to get some frozen peas from the store ASAP....as in, immediately. Then you will need to handfeed her at least 4x/day.

BUT..she needs to be nice and warm BEFORE you feed her. Which is why I said do 1) above first.

You may know how, but if not...it's simple: Take some peas, defrost them under hot running water (or I take a bowl of hot, hot tap water and dunk a dozen peas into the bowl and let them sit there a minute). Take a bite of one (OK, maybe you don't love peas...but this is for your Pigeon friend !) and make sure it isn't frozen or very cold in the middle . Let the outsides cool just a bit so they aren't cold, but are just a little bit warm (lukewarm or tepid is what folks call it).

Hold you buddy in one arm, probably gently wrapped in a towel so her head is sticking out, and with the hand of that arm, gently pry her beak open. 

With your free hand, take the pea and 'pop' it into the middle of her mouth (not the tip, not the back) ...then close the beak. She should swallow. You can also massage under her beak for a few seconds...this often helps them gulp and swallow.

I for some reason she starts to shake her head once the pea is in the mouth for a few seconds...open the beak and pull out the pea (gently) because she was choking. This RARELY happens....usually the pea is nice and slick and it just glides down the throat. She might wiggle and struggle a bit, which is why you have her wrapped in the towel.

First feeding try to get 7-10 peas into her. Then wait a couple of hours and see if she has pooped any. Then second feeding, try to get 12-15 into her. Again, wait 2 hours and see if she pooped 'em. Third feeding, try for 15-20. Wait 2-3 hours.

By the fourth feeding of the day, you can try to up it to 20-30 pieces of pea.

No need to worry about water because the peas have a lotta water in 'em...so they will both put weight on fast and provide hydration.

*3) MEDS* ~ do you have any there ? Antibiotic (not talking aspirin or pain relievers, talking antibiotics specifically). Ask your folks. Penicillin, Amoxycillin, Cephalexin, Baytril (also called Cipro or Ciproflax), Ceclor, anything like that. It can be human or pet grade.

If not...are there any *pet stores or farm feed stores* in Toronto ? Call (or have your parents call) and ask them if they have pet grade general antibiotics. 

Or, I believe you can find a place online which sells them. 

If online, have them ship it overnight.

You could try calling here, this place is in Ontario....although definitely *call* to ask because I do not see antibiotics on their website:

http://pigeonplus.ca If they don't carry a general antibiotic, ask them who does.

This other place has Trimeth Sulpha, which is a good antibiotic...but they are in Alberta. But they can likely ship overnight to you if you call:

http://www.northstardoves.com/Northstar_Doves_2011/Pigeons.html

Hope this helps. Good save, keep it up !!!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thanks! here is a pic of her wound I just realized how bad that is! its like, a hole right through! (ok maybe not that far, but its still big!)



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I dont have any of these meds, but I'll try to get a hold of them  I do have metronidazole and triple sulfa (thanks Scourge  ) but I'm not sure if they'll help.
I think I might even have some peas, and as for biting them, I'll let my mom do that  
I also can hand-feed her, its really quite easy to open her mouth, she is quite strong, but mostly when I touch her on her wing. (She bites me! Just like November! SHES LEARNING!!!!!)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Take a picture further back--I'm having a small problem figuring that one out.

It could be because many of us don't log in that often and don't refresh the page very much. These days, the volume of other posts (non-sick & injured) are way above what they used to be. "Once upon a time... " ...the sick & injured volume was more than 50% of the whole--now, not so much.

Pidgey


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

right now shes sleeping, but I'll take another pic soon, also,



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The pic is self explanatory...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Might be an idea to start this little one on the Triple-Sulfa. Do you still have instructions on how to mix and give it?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

sure do


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Can you also post a full body shot of the bird and is this bird from the same flock as your canker bird? What do the droppings look like?

Karyn


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The droppings are good looking, except for the fact that they are solid green, they are a good shade of green, and are not very liquid, I'll post pics soon. 



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hah lol, btw, that in the corner is my hand bent in a wierd way after recoiling from a wing slap 



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She isnt from the same flock as Cankerpij, or November and Scourge. November and Scourge from my school, and Cankerpij (not her name) is from on top of the curch where my mom works. This little one is from the Wychwood barns, an old streetcar barn(s). this flock isn't _very_ well fed, but they live fine.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, at least it doesn't look like a truly bad injury in a bad place. Most of the time, those heal up without incident. You don't generally even splint them. Might as well let time, good food, clean water and safety do their job.

(I didn't mean that you're safe, just the bird--you might suffer many more wingslappings!)

Pidgey


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

haha loll! She does really like to wingslap!
I know its late (at least, here it is!), but I'm medicating her right now, right after I'm done this post. I have the peas, and will start feeding tomorrow.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sounds good !!!...the injury might have been a puncture wound from an attempted grab...sorta hawkish-looking. Could also have been some sob with a slingshot or bb gun. Take a look and see if there's any exit hole on the opposite side.

Pssst...trimeth and triple sulpha are basically the same thing  Great stuff to have on hand. It seems like the word is out in Feral Pigeon land that you are one of their best allies...so always try to keep some meds on hand. Just a tip...they know good humans when they see one.

I agree with Pidgey...looks like she/he can recover from this one. But with wing injuries, always a question about regaining full flight ability. But we are jumping ahead. Get those meds started and get her fattened up....and again keep her warm and comfy.

Good work (BTW...always eat your veggies !)


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Hmm...if she keeps this new habit up, I'm not sure her wing will be getting any better! I've stopped her several times, she begins by grooming, and then moves on to attacking her wound! Any way I can stop this? Also, I just wanted to add that her wing is always droopy O__O
Checking for an exit hole....OMG there is! Poor baby might have been BB'd!
It turned out that I didn't get to medicate her yesterday -_- because my mom kept asking me to do stuff, but this time, I got home from school, and medicated her at 4:23, the same time Scourge was medicated every day (no I didn't do that on purpose, completely subconscious!)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Phil would probably be the expert on splinting a bb wound....I will PM him and hopefully he can provide directions.

BTW...the best of ALL possible things one can do in the event of this sort of injury is get the Pigeon to a vet for an exam and some tests. Just wanna point that out. Everything else is just a home-remedy and it would never substitute for a professional vet treatment. I dunno if your family would be willing to do that or not...but I just wanted to mention it. Again, a situation where a vet visit may mean the difference between your pal being releasable again or never being releasable again. This isn't to freak you out or anything...just had to mention it, if it's a possible alternative there.

OK, now that you have started meds...remember NOT to miss a dosage. Very important that you keep him/her on it, proper dosage, for at least a week. Even if things get really busy..y'know ?

Also wanted to mention...your 2 comments on the other threads, one regarding the falconer ...and the other regarding the idiot who didn't do what he could have done to help....those were very astute comments ~ you are a much wiser soul than your years !


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Oops...hehe... Phil's on an 'insisted vacation', apparently....

If anyone with good experience splinting wants to chime in, feel free....I found this:

http://www.starlingtalk.com/fractures.htm#wingfracture

If you wanna protect the area yourself, you more just wanna make sure the injury is covered so he/she cannot peck it. I'd go with some gauze and use the sort of wrap/bandage which sticks to itself (not the adhesive bandaging, the stuff which sticks to itself but is removable...I think it's called Tender Tape, sometimes.

Tough on gun wounds because you hope the bb just passed through without permanently shattering anything important (the wound is awfully close to some important joints). 

Certainly wrapping it to protect against pecking and giving her food and antibiotics will likely heal her up, make her strong again, prevent infection, and allow the wing to med in some form. But, again, only way to tell for sure if the wing needs to be set properly, is a vet.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I fed her 10 peas in her last feeding. I used my index finger to open the top beak, and the thumb on the same hand for the lower. That's the only way I could open it, she's getting tougher! She's been wingslapping me loads! Also, I know I will regret the dumb name, but I like it. Her name is Tundra (as in, the arctic, ya know?) 
Now she is sleeping, but tomorrow I will protect it.
Also, thanks  I had to look up "astute"


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

SHE IS NOT OK!
Bleeding, bleeding, bleeding! Her bone appears broken, and where the break rests, there is another cut. I think it is because the bone sticks out and rubs against her side. Its really bad! I feel so bad. She is also loaded with pigeon mites! LOADED! you just have to move her feathers over and they come crawling out. Seas of them. I need to take her to the vet! My mom doesn't wanna. GUH! Poor little tundra. Her wing twists this way and that. Completely broken. This is so terrible!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

HER BONE STICKS OUT OF HER WING, It's totally broken.How could someone do that to a baby like that?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi Elisabeth...don't panic. Can you get her to a vet ? Ask your parents to bring you to a vet. Even though this happened ....it can still be OK. You just need to make sure the vet understands that she is your Pigeon so they will treat her and give her back to you.

Do all you can to convince your parents.

In the meantime, I am hoping you have compressed the area where the bleeding is to try to make it stop. You can also (with help) maybe try to put some bandage around the wing and her body to keep it from hanging and flopping around.
I will try to find other people in Toronto, but do try to convince your parents to take her to the vet.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

If you absolutely can't get to a vet, you can try splinting the wing... there are some good tutorials on this site (but I never had any luck with it myself.) I totally agree that the wound needs pressure to stop the bleeding, and that a temporary bandage to keep her from moving it is a good idea. 

That wing definitely needs to be in a splint -- and it sounds like a compound fracture, so a vet really is your best option by far .. if the wing is going to heal, the bone will probably need to be set. That is beyond what most rehabbers can do -- but maybe there is a very experienced one who will be able to help you. 

I have a hen who had a bb wound, and she is healed up completely now -- but she did have veterinary care. Glad you have her on antibiotics -- that should keep infection from setting in.

As for the mites -- can you get Scalex anywhere near you? They sell it at pet stores here. It is a mite spray for birds... and it is pretty safe to use, but cover her face when you spray her. You can hand rub the Scalex up around her neck, but don't spray her there. 

Another good thing for mites is diotomaceous earth.... I get the food grade kind, because it is safe for the pigeons to eat. It is good for all parasites. 

Let us know how it goes -- I hope you can get her to a good vet, and soon.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Elisabeth, as the others have mentioned, don't panic, her wing can be helped. If a vet is not possible you will need to set this wing yourself, Jaye has posted a link on how to do a figure 8 wrap and this is what needs to be done. You will need the help of someone to hold her, as you will need both hands to gently try and realign the wing into alignment, place any protruding bone under the skin, and cover the wound with a good amount of Neosporin. You then need to sprint the wing with something to immobilize it so it stays in place. You can use an Emery board for filing finger nails to do this, as they are easy to cut and shape down to the right size and shape with a small pair of scissors. Place a small of gauze on top of the open break, place the cut down splint on top of this, wrap a layer of gauze over this and secure this with three small pieces of tape along the splinted section, thay go right around the wing and back on top of each other. Now cut down the gauze roll to 1" rolls and and wrap this section to secure it all in place, about 3-4 times around should do this, you want to wrap it with a bit of tension so everything is held well and will not move, but too tight as to cut off circulation, then on top of this gauze you will now wrap this with regular adhesive tape to secure the whole wrap/splinted section. Once the section is splinted then do the figure 8 wrap around the wing to immobile it. You must use some Micropore tape, this is a breathable surgical tape or Coban/Vet wrap over the gauze figure 8 wrap or the bird will soon have the gauze loosened. I would first try and do the wrap that just wraps the wing and does not go right around the body/breast, as they seem to balance better if this will work, make sure she stays on the antibiotics. Here are a few more links on wing wraps.

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing.html
http://www.parrotchronicles.com/features/firstaid/firstaid.htm

You can pick up a caged Mite & Lice spray from any bigger pet store, you want the kind based on the active ingredient Pyrethrins. Cover her face area and spray her all over and under the wings.

http://www.petco.com/product/102342/8-in-1-Ultra-Care-Mite-And-Lice-Bird-Spray.aspx

Karyn


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Good morning, how's the pidge doing? Any luck splinting the wing?

I live downtown Toronto, let me know if you need an extra hand.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I keep asking her for the vet. But were not exactly good on money, so she always says no  Always the same answer! I stopped the bleeding, and tried to splint it (with no sucsess). I'll try again today. Karyn, for Scourgey, you gave me a link to a bird spray and the location, so I guess I'll go there. She eats organic peas, and drinks good a amout of water after seeds, and her poop actually looks even healthier than Novembers! I have absolutely no worries about her diet. I built her a warm nest of wool shirts, but she ignores it and prefers to just puff up for warmth.
Tundra really looks forward to her cage, and when she escapes from me, she always goes back to her cage. She enjoys looking out the window at the squirells and November through the screen, and sitting on my finger.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Thanks everyone for you help, by the way


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Good the bleeding has stopped. The wing will need splinted, so you will have to try again. Wrap her in a small towel and arrange it so she is all wrapped up, except the wing you are working on, she will be much calmer if you do this when splinting, when it comes time to figure 8 wrap the wing, you may need more room, so then arrange the towel so that her head is still covered, to help her remain calm, to allow you to do the best you can for her.

You may even want to get your mother more involved with this, as she may be good with her hands, where you hold the bird and she sets the wing, have her go through the instructions a few times.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

It will be helpful if you can set up a quiet, dark cage for it to remain calm...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Thank you, the "two D's" (Dance and Dobato) for helping a fellow Torontoan (sp ?)

Elisabeth...Dance has offered to actually meet and help out..so if your parents are cool with that, I think it's a good idea to have two Pigeon People instead of just one. Always makes things go better. As Dobato says, very hard to splint/wrap any sort of bird by yourself.

Just a quick caution....look carefully at the wound where the bleeding stopped...._sometimes it will scab over OUTSIDE but still be bleeding INSIDE. Some signs of this are:_

~ fluid buildup under the skin

~ laboured breathing

~ lethargy, squinty eyes, seeming sick

Be alert on the lookout for these things...check her often. 

Tundra is lucky to have found you....keep it up.... and you have good, experienced folks nearby to help you.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

guh -_- I typed a nice long paragraph and then accidentally erased it  
It contained how healthy she looked, other than the facts she doesn't move around too much and that she is still skinny. And that she doesn't have any of the symptoms listed above!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Elisabeth...Dance has offered to actually meet and help out..so if your parents are cool with that, I think it's a good idea to have two Pigeon People instead of just one. Always makes things go better. As Dobato says, very hard to splint/wrap any sort of bird by yourself.


I agree--I think it might be best if you got a bit of help with this.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think it is great that someone has offered to help you! I have found splinting to be rather difficult -- definitely would be a lot easier with two people. Someone who is experienced at it will be able to set the wing so that it will heal. 

You are doing so much for these poor birds... they are so lucky to have you to help them!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I pm'd them a while ago


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'm with her right now!  We've splinted her wing, and shes looking good! Thanks so much DanceBiscuit!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I'm with her right now!  We've splinted her wing, and shes looking good! Thanks so much DanceBiscuit!




So glad to hear that it worked out!


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

You're welcome NS! I really hope she relaxes and lets herself heal, its tricky when the break isn't set asap after injury.

Keep us posted and well wishes for all of you!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I wake up, feeling good. So I go to Tundras cage, and guess what I find? A splint. Carelessly strewn everywhere.
Oh Tundra!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Tried to splint it again. Came back 15 mins later, missing splint -_-


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Tundraaaa!!! At this point I'm tempted to say just let her be. She's probably just making it worse by picking at the bandages. Seems she stays pretty calm/still on her own though, right? Just make sure she's warm and fed...

Others can correct me on this, but she's a stubborn little bird...


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I doubt her wing will heal properly like this....guh >_< If only she was a calm bird!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hmmm...I have had Pigeons that did that. There are two other alternatives:

1) do a wing splint with a full-body wrap. This sometimes will actually discourage the Pigeon from wanting to walk and move around; because it's such a total wrap.

2) splint again and keep her sedated for a few days. This requires prescriptive meds and patience.

Thanks for helping out DB....I am a bit at a loss to suggest anything else....the problem is if Tundra is active, she can get the wing in a compromised position and do further damage, no ?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I already tried a full body wrap (with a sock  ) She jammed her feet into it twice, and then I had to cut it open to let her out  ughhhh -_-


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ok...uhmmm...well..do pigeons have "beak mites" or something...? in each of her nostrils, there was a small, round, orange bug with six legs. I killed one, but when I tried to grab the other, he crawled back down the nose!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> I already tried a full body wrap (with a sock  ) She jammed her feet into it twice, and then I had to cut it open to let her out  ughhhh -_-


Lol been there-done that, they can be little devils at times.
I had one like that recently.
If you splint & bandage the bird again, then
What I ended up doing was using a nylon sock that would stretch quite a bit.
cut just a small hole at the toe for its head to go through, then 2 smaller holes for the legs about 3cm nearer the head than you actually think they should be and only about 15mm apart.
The holes for the legs do need to be VERY small as when you stretch the sock over the bird, the holes will stretch also. If you make them too big, the bird will get its toenails up & get it off)
once made, roll the sock up to the neck hole, hold the bird with its legs straight back to the tail, & pop birds head through, then roll the sock back over the complete body, covering the splint & bandage. At this point if you cover the head with another cloth it should stop the bird trying to struggle & panic.
Now gently stretch the bottom of the sock so that you can move one of its legs back into normal position, curl its toes & gently manouever its foot through the hole.
Repeat for the other leg. 
Once both legs are through the holes gently straighten each leg and push the sock towards the birds body making sure both legs are as far through as possible right up to its "hips". (this means when the bird puts its legs in the normal position, it holds the sock like a pair of pants & even if it gets its toes up, it cant get them off)
Next, trim the sock at the bottom rear so any poops will not get stuck in it, but leave the top so it goes further down the back towards the tail as this will help hold the wings, splint & bandage in place.
The bird will not have very good balance to walk like this at first, so will need to rest in a donut with food & water in easy reach.
It took me about 3 tries to get the holes in the right place & small enough so hope you have plenty old socks lol


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

thanks  I guess the foot holes were too big...actually...it was just one big foothole!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Sorry...about the mites...have you used flea powder on her ? (gotta be really careful NOT to get it in the open wound. If not, use it. Cover the eyes and nostils/cere/beak).

Then also see if you can order some Ivermectin wormer from a Pigeon supply place. So you will have one external anti parasityical, and one internal. That should pack a wallop.

Can you remind us...is she on an antibiotic still ?

Quazar...do you happen to have a picture of any of your 'socked' patients ???


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Quazar...do you happen to have a picture of any of your 'socked' patients ???[/COLOR]


Ive only had the one so far (Charlie), was looking for a pic when I posted to show better what I was meaning, I should have one somewhere, but for the life of me cant find it or others from the around the same time  .


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

what does it mean i her cere is really soft? Is that just because she is young (although she no longer squeaks and looks close to adulthood)? calcium deficiency? if so, I have plenty of caltrate leftover from Scourge...
also...do I stop her meds now? its been a week!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

guh  tried to brace with a sock....made her bleed...a lot. I cleaned her up..but she bled more.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Mmmmf.....thing is, here...that break is never gonna heal and set if it isn't immobilized properly...and each time the wound re-opens, there's room for new infections to develop. also.

Really, November...you have done wonderfully...but she isn't an easy patient and it isn't an easy set of injuries she has.

Is there absolutely no possibility at all for a vet to treat her ???


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'd have to ask my (unhelpful as ever) dad...my mom is as stubborn as this pigeon!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

How much do you guys think vet bills would cost to set the wing? What about amputation? (I know that's not ideal--but it might keep him from suffering and be cheap enough for the parents?)

Would it be possible for the forum to raise money?

I don't know, I just wish we could find a way for November x Scourge to get more help. BTW November--you are doing an amazing job. I can't believe you're just the age of my little sister. You're doing fantastic.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you make and post a video of her moving about so that we can see this wing in action a little better?

Pidgey


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

sure! I have to go out get some special kidney-safe food for Tethys, but I'll probs be back in 30 mins....


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

ok...I'm back...I'll video now!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/Silverstream360?feature=mhee

Haha! My voice is so annoying -_-
anyway..It was kidna dark, and bad quality, but at least you can see that the wing droops. When I said she can fly, I meant that she can go a couple of feet.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Your voice only sounds annoying to you because a recording doesn't sound like what you hear--to us, there are no preconceptions, so it's just "you".

There's nothing to splint there. The question is whether or not the wing tip can be pulled to its fullest extension by the "ropes and pulleys" that are the various tendons and ligaments. The power stroke of flight comes from the rotation of the humerus where it joins the shoulder and there's nothing wrong there. When we splint, we're usually doing it for a broken humerus (upper arm) or the radius-ulna pairing (forearm). The part that's been messed up on this bird is what amounts to the hand itself--the carpometacarpus area. It should heal up and solidify in time. Blood in feathers makes a pretty solid concrete-like stuff that's often just better left on, especially in a case like this.

So... probably better to just let time do its job.

Pidgey


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ok...do I stop the sulfa?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Woa, poor stubborn Tundra, she's not making it easy on you, is she, NS? Keep up the good work!
edit: is she picking at the wound, or does it start to bleed from attempts at flight?

also, I wouldn't worry about the aesthetics of a drooped wing, just its function. My pidge Viktor has a droopy wing from an old break(though not in the same location) and she flies quite well. 

Have you attempted to just tape the primary flight feathers together in order to stabilize the wing, or will she rip it off? (I know we attempted that when I came over, but I can't remember whether she picked it off herself or we just scrapped what we had done and took another direction...)


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

she picked it off -_- and no, she doesnt pick at the wound anymore


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

P.S. 
Thanks everyone who said I'm doing great! Of course, I wouldn't be able do very much without your help and encouragement!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She's getting fatter....!


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

That's encouraging! Now if she'll only calm down a bit...


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Fatter is good! I wish my little Hazmat would do the same....


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ive been readibg about Hazmat... You did
Awesome! I hope he gets even bettee... And fat!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

He's remarkably better today, and is finally starting to put on some weight --- thanks for your support with him  He is turning into a little cuddle-monster -- loves to be scratched on the back of the neck, and loves preening my hand too.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

awwww! If only my rescues turned out like that...instead of evil, biting creatures! but I love them anyway! My only rescue that was actually turning out to be a non-biter, was Scourge, who is no longer with us... -_- although I know that November's are purely playful....


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Also, Tundra is gaining pretty fast now! I mixed some hand-chopped peanuts into her seeds, and she is already fatter! Before, she was like, just a keel bone! The bone stuck out, and all the skin around was sunken. She's filled out, and although she still has this bone visible, its more like, uhh, full around? lol


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

She can already fly!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Congrats! I'm so glad to hear she feels that much better.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I am so glad to hear that Tundra is doing so much better. It's scary when they are that thin.

I know what you mean about the pecking -- I have a male that goes for blood every single time -- he literally flew in my window as an injured peeping juvenile, bonded with me, and that was that. He moved in and stayed... he's got a big cushy hutch all to himself now -- doesn't care much for the other birds but he is crazy about people. 

He loves me to pieces, and would follow me around all day gnawing on me if I would let him...lol. He gets very jealous whenever I pay attention to any of the others. 

I'm convinced that he secretly sharpens his beak with some kind of high-tech tools every night.....


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Ermm...Tundra is a male! O____O I was going to grab her to examine her wing, and when I cornered her....she did the male sound at me!


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## Pigeon lower (Oct 23, 2007)

November, you gonna reply to my message or what?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well...females do the "male sound" too, you know.

Amazing that she/he is capable of flying at all...that wing injury sounded bad. Over the next few weeks, really DO try to ascertain how GOOD his/her flying ability is...because you wouldn't wanna do a release and then discover once she/he is out there that, indeed, the flying ability is poor.

But all in all, great news !!!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Awww -- flying and roo-coo-cooing... these are fabulous things!

Jaye's advice is spot-on -- there's flying, and then there is flying well... I have a couple of rescues that can fly, but never gained enough solid, sustained flight to release. I just didn't feel they would be safe on their own.

So glad Tundra is doing so well -- it's pretty amazing how well a bullet injury can heal up, isn't it?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Tundra flies short distance...she/he can hold up for abOut 3/4ths of a hallways length
And then makes an ungraceful landing on the nearest item possible. She/he feircly defends herself, and will puff up, coo, and wingslap any curious cat or pestering human. I cut her nails today...WAYYYY too long (no blood or quick cutting!!!). She can't hold her wing properly, and always has it drooping, and she always wingslaps with the other.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctCdbyZFAek

her/him displaying his awesomness!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Awesome ! Also that other vid....that thing on her/his head is hilarious !!!

Good work...still sorta sounds iffy on the flying ability, but I am glad she/he has recovered so strongly otherwise !


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

heheheh  The thing on his head is some birch bark I found, and that's November when he was still living in that same crate! 

I bought spray for mites and lice and I have a vet appointment for a wormer too! little Tundra will be so...errr...thrilled? *cough cough* 
Will I have to spray everything in her/his cage as well as himself?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

No...just the Pigie. Make sure you cover his/her eyes and cere (nostrils).


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Thanks! Also, Is pancure good for worms?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

heeyyy ppl! so, Ive treated his fleas, and now, I need advice! Should I release him with his funny flying? should I put him with November?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> heeyyy ppl! so, Ive treated his fleas, and now, I need advice! Should I release him with his funny flying? should I put him with November?


how funny is "funny?' I would think if he doesn't fly too well, release would not be an option as he'd be easier for predators to catch.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

he wobbles in flight (kinda) and cant fly long distances, in his case, a hallway.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> he wobbles in flight (kinda) and cant fly long distances, in his case, a hallway.


If he can't even fly down a hallway, I don't feel like he could escape predators, or keep up with a flock to forage properly. Doesn't seem super releasable.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

hmmm... I'll post a video so you can see how he goes. Poor little one -_-


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

You have done *very* well and it is a small miracle, based upon how she/he started out and the state he was in...that he/she has regained some flight ability. It is somewhat amazing.

But from your description, release absolutely *isn't* in the cards. A Pigeon with such compromised flying ability cannot make it back in the Feral world. He wouldn't last long and the struggles while he did would be huge.

I think November has a new pal....


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Thanks! Also, Is pancure good for worms?


BTW...never use *Panacur* on a Pigeon (unless there is absolutely no other alternative and the worms are really, really bad)...it is toxic to Columbids. Use *ivermectin or prazquanitel*....or a combo of both.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

November would be thrilled! I have the video, but right now I can't post it from my iPhone. I would have to treat the worms before lettIng them meet though, right? Are they contagious?


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> November would be thrilled! I have the video, but right now I can't post it from my iPhone. I would have to treat the worms before lettIng them meet though, right? Are they contagious?


Yes, worms are contagious--usually through the feces. Keep him separated till he's completely clean of them. This takes at least two wormings (a week apart--to kill the parents and their eggs.)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Be aware, also...November may not initially be _quite_ so thrilled as you think. 

He (she?) has had the run of the place for some time... and likely considers it his/her territory...now all of a sudden here's this other Pij. There will be an adjustment period, oftentimes. Sometimes not...sometimes they start out getting along almost immediately. 
But it may not go that way....half-expect November to bully Tundra around a bit, and you probably will need to do some regulatin' if that happens


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Excuse my messy hallway -_-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSaw4oXUlsU


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Hmm, I'm not sure if he has worms at all, his poop is clear of them, and nice and firm. The bugs in his beak have stopped too


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Another problem with Tundra is that instead of flying when he feels threatened, he attacks. And although his bites hurt, they're definitely not enough to drive away a dog


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

so alone 

anyway, I dont think Tundra will ever grow the feathers that once were there back.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Give it time. Sometimes it takes quite a while to see if feathers will come back. 

I don't think she'll ever be releasable, based on your videos of her flight pattern, though.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I hope they come


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

I'll post some pictures of his droppings, and then maybe we can determine if he really has worms. To me his poop looks faily healthy, but then again, I have never dealt with worms.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Generally if she is not losing weight and is either gaining or maintaining weight, there's likely no worms present...although it's easy to worm, really. Just get the right drugs....usually Ivermectin is the first go-to med.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Just sending a quick note of encouragement 

I'm happy to hear s/he's gained a bit of flying ability, Hope Tundra puts his ego asside and welcomes the new company.
(Perhaps give them a few face-to-face meets on "neutral" ground before putting him in the loft?)


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Good idea! I can lock the cats up and let them meet for a few mins! Soon soon...  a lady at the barns (where Tripp lives) saw that I was trying to catch pigeons and asked why, after I filled her in, she said that a month or two ago she saw a pigeon with a broken wing. Her description of him fit Tundra perfectly! I told her that I had already tended to that one  on another note, Tundra has molted away all his head/neck feathers, the new ones coming are very pretty and colorful! One last thing, Dota (the one who's tail was eaten) has grown the tail back and is once more good. The only problem is that she's too comfortable with people, she's the last one to fly, and eats rigt from on your feet!


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

November and Tundra's meeting: Not so great.
They met in the washroom, where none of them was in command...I thought. November promptly attacked poor little Tundra right in the face! I stopped him and continued watching, November chased him around. In the end , I brought Tundra back to his cage, and he seemed more comfortable than ever with me! I cuddled with him and he sat on my shoulder. He is now sitting in a great spot he found for himself, loose in my room. Can't post the cute pic right now, but soon. 
On a darker note, yesterday I found Tundra with one of his toes stuck in a hole in his perch, flailing, hanging upside down. He got off before I could help him. Relieved, I went to sleep. In the morning, I stalked over to check on him, and to my horror, found that his entire nail had come off when he fell! First thing I did was disinfect it, just in case, and then spread a thing pretty close to polysporin on his toe. I feel so sorry


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> November and Tundra's meeting: Not so great.
> They met in the washroom, where none of them was in command...I thought. November promptly attacked poor little Tundra right in the face! I stopped him and continued watching, November chased him around. In the end , I brought Tundra back to his cage, and he seemed more comfortable than ever with me! I cuddled with him and he sat on my shoulder. He is now sitting in a great spot he found for himself, loose in my room. Can't post the cute pic right now, but soon.
> On a darker note, yesterday I found Tundra with one of his toes stuck in a hole in his perch, flailing, hanging upside down. He got off before I could help him. Relieved, I went to sleep. In the morning, I stalked over to check on him, and to my horror, found that his entire nail had come off when he fell! First thing I did was disinfect it, just in case, and then spread a thing pretty close to polysporin on his toe. I feel so sorry


Get rid of that perch and check for any others with crevices.

Their first few meetings could be rocky. Give it time and let them work it out. It's ok if you're on neutral ground (bathroom) and nobody is bleeding/loosing much for feathers. It also might be worth it to put the new bird loose in the loft with the old bird in a cage in the loft. Then switch every day with one or the other in the cage. Throughout this time, continue the bathroom meetings, but don't leave them alone together until they're starting to be nice to each other in the bathroom. Might be worth it to clip one wing if a specific bird is being most aggressive. I have to do this to Edmund every once in along while to keep him from plucking Lita.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The perch is long gone. 
Thanks for the cage idea! I'll do that tomorrow, imma keep them meeting every day 'till they get used! How do I clip a wing?? ( right now I feel completely and utterly stupid lolol)


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> The perch is long gone.
> Thanks for the cage idea! I'll do that tomorrow, imma keep them meeting every day 'till they get used! How do I clip a wing?? ( right now I feel completely and utterly stupid lolol)


Now I wish that we needed to do it again so we could take pictures. 

This is relatively useful, though there are things I disagree with her on (like clipping wings does not make it instantly ok to bring parrots outside...  ):






I usually leave the last flight feather on the end because it looks prettier. I also do not clip nearly this much off, because we're going for just a bit clumsy and humiliated, not taking away much flight capability. It only took a little bit of about 3 feathers on Edmund to make him shape up his attitude. I only clip one wing when it's for attitude adjustments. (to keep him from hurting his mate. He's the only bird I ever need to do this with--though I have considered clipping both Baby's wings since she has poor eyesight and flies into things...  )

Make sure you do this when the feathers are not blood feathers. Always have some flour nearby just in case something does bleed.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

This is really useful, showing good and bad ways of trimming and why:


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Thanks! Good vid! Today, I tried the cage thing, they attacked each other through the bars, but each only lost a few feathers each. It was sooooo funny to hear them both cooing at the same time! Like a little symphony! Tundras cooing is so high compared to nov's.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Thanks! Good vid! Today, I tried the cage thing, they attacked each other through the bars, but each only lost a few feathers each. It was sooooo funny to hear them both cooing at the same time! Like a little symphony! Tundras cooing is so high compared to nov's.


Yeah, so long as nobody gets hurt, this can help force them to get to know each other. It's the same way I've seen it done at the zoo.


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

Tripp
Is 
Mine


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> Tripp
> Is
> Mine


Yay! 

How is he doing? Where are you at with fixing those feet?


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## November-X-Scourge (May 12, 2011)

The strings are all gone. It was terrible! Bloody, and I'm pretty sure that toe is gonna fall off. I have pictures, and I'm posting them riiigghhhtttt noowww... On my comp (posting from iPhone) he was very very quiet, in fact, for a moment I thought he'd actually died! He was just in pain. Beautiful hunk of pigeon he is. More bout him in a sec!


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

November-X-Scourge said:


> The strings are all gone. It was terrible! Bloody, and I'm pretty sure that toe is gonna fall off. I have pictures, and I'm posting them riiigghhhtttt noowww... On my comp (posting from iPhone) he was very very quiet, in fact, for a moment I thought he'd actually died! He was just in pain. Beautiful hunk of pigeon he is. More bout him in a sec!


The way his toes looked in some of your other pics, I would probably put him on antibiotics just in case.

Poor baby!


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