# Ludo Cock



## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

There is an 03 Ludo Grizzle Cock on www.pigeonauctions.com up for auction from Dewberry Freedom Loft from OK. Starting bid is $175. Just thought I would pass it on.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2009)

yeah its a beauty isnt it 







not sure how well it represents the Ludo name thou


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> There is an 03 Ludo Grizzle Cock on www.pigeonauctions.com up for auction from Dewberry Freedom Loft from OK. Starting bid is $175. Just thought I would pass it on.


Thanks for sharing this !

It appears that what we are looking at here is at best, a 2nd generation bird, and the orginals as in the case of the Grand Sire on the Sire's side, was a complete outcross, and the Grand Dam on the Sire's side was the result of a crossing. So, IMHO the use of the word "Ludo" may be more marketing then reality. There is at least one key Ludo Hen in the background, "Vaal Olympia" which was a full sister to the famous Late Rode 430. 

Learning on this site, has much closer bloodlines to these famous birds, as he owns a son, from the Champion Vos 77 when he was mated to "Vaal Olympia". Some of the other birds listed in the pedigree, best I can tell, (hard to read) never made it into Ludo's published family tree, so may be the 2nd and 3rd teir birds. 

Forgetting what the paper may or may not say, in my opinion, the bird does not appear to be particularly attractive, nor does it have a well balanced look. Not the kind of bird which appeals to me.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Thanks for sharing this !
> 
> It appears that what we are looking at here is at best, a 2nd generation bird, and the orginals as in the case of the Grand Sire on the Sire's side, was a complete outcross, and the Grand Dam on the Sire's side was the result of a crossing. So, IMHO the use of the word "Ludo" may be more marketing then reality. There is at least one key Ludo Hen in the background, "Vaal Olympia" which was a full sister to the famous Late Rode 430.
> 
> Learning on this site, has much closer bloodlines to these famous birds, as he owns a son, from the Champion Vos 77 when he was mated to "Vaal Olympia". Some of the other birds listed in the pedigree, best I can tell, (hard to read) never made it into Ludo's published family tree, so may be the 2nd and 3rd teir birds. Forgetting what the paper may or may not say, in my opinion, the bird does not appear to be particularly attractive, nor does it have a well balanced look. Not the kind of bird which appeals to me.


And I would also frown on two generations of "bred for stock", neither this bird, nor it's parents were raced, or if they were, did not rate high enough to be listed on the pedigree.


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

*Thank u nice clock*


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2009)

so Warren whats your opinion on this supposed Luda Hen on this auction site here other then the crazy toenails ?
http://www.pigeons4sale.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=SaleOut&item=1249886248


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> so Warren whats your opinion on this supposed Luda Hen on this auction site here other then the crazy toenails ?
> http://www.pigeons4sale.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=SaleOut&item=1249886248


Sure would like to see the pedigree on this pigeon. I could not see one, which seems strange. I'm either blind, or someone is selling a bird without a pedigree. I do find her much more attractive, although she has not been cared for very well. So, the character of the seller, the validity of the paperwork, will affect her value. I definitely think I see far more of Ludo's influence in this bird, then the previous bird. 

Just to give you something to compare to these two birds. Take a look at this bird here. Mr. Dewberry. It has the following band number DFL 185 - 04. This bird is the product of a pairing of two direct Ludo's. I took a small gamble, and purchased this bird on Ipigeon several years ago. He produced some key club and combine winners, and perhaps more importantly, so has his grand children including two "Bird of the Year" winners. Both of his parents were Direct Ludo's. This bird qualifies as a "Ludo Claessen". Children from this Mr. Dewberry are not, IMHO, Ludo Claessens. They are Ludo Claessen based birds. They are second generation from the Master. 

But, sometimes you can find reasonably priced birds that work out. You may have to buy and sort through a dozen of them to find a really good one, but I have also had the same experience investing tens of thousands with Mike Ganus, so you could take a chance on a single $2500 bird, or you could try picking up ten clunkers that could. Sometimes it's a roll of the dice. This year I am rolling the dice with one of his offspring in the Flamingo, and he's still there.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Warren, that is a magnificent looking bird!!!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

truely a well balanced bird and prettyto boot ..I especally like the reach of the wings towards the tail, long and lean and built to fly . I do have to agree about the first Ludo picture in this thread, its built like a duck , a handsome duck but a duck non the less lol


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

heres a site that seems to have many Ludo Claessens based birds for sale for a price if anyone is interested in looking thru them.. just curious on anyones take on how good these birds appear to be? http://racingpigeon.webs.com/ludoclaessens.htm


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

LokotaLoft said:


> heres a site that seems to have many Ludo Claessens based birds for sale for a price if anyone is interested in looking thru them.. just curious on anyones take on how good these birds appear to be? http://racingpigeon.webs.com/ludoclaessens.htm


I find this site to be quite interesting. It seems like these type of sites try to overwhelm potential customers with the big names in their bird's pedigrees. This site even goes so far as to put those big names in bright colors so you don't miss them. Your eyes are drawn to the big names that are two, three or four generations back. You are impressed with what their grandsire or great grandsire did, but....what did this bird actually do or produce?

One tactic I noticed on this site was that he has gone so far as to use the same names for his offspring as Ludo did in the past. An example of this is his "Rode Katoog". His '08 model is not, I can assure you, the same model as the original "Rode Katoog" of Ludo's in '98. Ludo's original was a red check not a blue grizzle.

These are all tactics that feather merchants will use to pump the value of their product in the eyes of the potential customer. Just remember, Ludo never ran an add. Ludo never plastered his bird's accomplishments over the glossy pages of every pigeon magazine in the world. He just flew his birds and the world beat a path to his door. To me, all these others are just sad immitators trying to make a buck off of the legend's fine name.

Personally, even though I am priviledged to have some of what I consider to be very fine second generation blood from Ludo Claessens, I would never advertise my birds as Ludos. They have not earned that right, and unfortunately never will as they were not raised and raced under the master's hand. They are just 9 Points Loft birds that happen to have some very famous relatives. In reality they are more Smith Family Loft birds than anything else. To put credit anywhere else would simply not be right. 

As always, just my two cents.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Debated if I should even share this, as I don't want to high-jack the thread, but it does relate to what might consitute a Ludo pigeon. Here are the names/band numbers of the 14 names, which make up a 3 generation pedigree for Mr. Dewberry, as I can't duplicate an image. I have 373 of his ancestors in my data base. One of the most complete data bases on Ludo Claessen pigeons in the World. I share this, so you will know which birds were some of the very key racers and breeders for Ludo in case you see a "Ludo Pedigree". This "Old" pre-1995 family line of Ludo's were a bit on the larger size, and very strong. Ludo referred to them as his best back then, and referred to them as his "Vos" line. 

There are very few offspring from direct Ludo birds in North America. They are some of the rarest of strains. Thus, even a bird which is only 1/4 "Ludo" will sell at a higher price, with the "Ludo" name. Sometimes, it's a little like those guys at an airport selling $15,000 "Rolex" brand watches for $50 or $75+ depending on how good of a "mark" you are. At other times, you may have some very good fanciers, who have fallen on hard times, and must sell birds, they might otherwise not sell. Depends if you are talking about a serious private breeder, or a re-seller, or mass merchant type. Important in all such transactions, to know the seller. 

The guy who won the $160,000 Jack Pot in 2007 at the International Challenge, with a 1/2 Ludo is most likely happy with his Ludo bird. I doubt his Ludo bird would make it onto an auction site with a $100 or $200 starting bid. So if you can buy a *good *1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 of whatever you can get your hands on, then you should buy it. But, I personally would attempt to purchase a bird with some sort of proven race history. Does not have to be a Combine or National Champion, but at least some participation in the races, so you know the bird still has homing ability. A proven breeder can be excused from a racing career, but the problem is, "Proven Breeder" is often a bit difficult to prove to someone, once you get right down to it, because it requires trust. Too many "Bred for Stock" in a pedigree, without evidence of successful breeding or racing, should be a red flag. 

Sorry, didn't mean to high jack this thread. There is a reason, why Ludo has called me a "Claessen Fanatic". 

You can trace and find the names of some of these birds and key racers on the pre-1995 Ludo Family Tree on my web site at :

http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoFamilyTree1.htm


Pedigree Of "MISTER DEWBERRY" DFL-185-04 RED VELVET Purchased at auction, from top Ludo Bloodlines. Great body and looks. Has produced TOP UPC Combine Diploma winner. 

Sex Cock 

Inbreeding 12.5% 


Parents Grandparents Great Grandparents 

"VOS 82" NL 9467882-94 Sire to FAVORITE who was 1/3919 birds

NL 1693306-97 "VOSKE WITPEN 306" 

*"LATE DONKER 375"* NL 93-1125375 DC *Sire 1st Nat. Orleans1995, 2002, Gr Sire 1st Nat. Orleans 2001, 2006* Key Breeder for Claessen.

NL 9014195-90 "DONKER 95" 

*"DIK LICHT 56"* NL 2299256-87 BC Grand Dam *1st Nat.Orleans (R) 1991, 1993, 1995 1st Nat. (NPO) 2002 Great Grand Dam on Sire's and Dam's side to 1st Nat. Orleans (R) 2001 *

*"DE JUF"* NL 9467866-94 Red. Full sister to "THE DREAM", winner of *1st National Orleans*, dam to "RED ARROW II", DE JUF as of 2002 was *responsible for 25 1st place winners*, According to Mike Ganus, the #1 breeding hen for Ludo 

*"VOS 54"* NL 9014054-90 Red Velvet. Foundation sire to generations of what Ludo called his best line, the "Vos Line", *Sire to 1st National Orleans, and four Prov. winners*. also 1ST/391b, 4TH/3502b, 17TH/ 2952b

*"DONKER WITPEN 72"* NL 9014072-90 DKCWft 8/2840 Compiegne also *Dam of two National Winners*

NL 1693306-97 "VOSKE WITPEN 306"

NL 9692811-96 "BONTE VOS 11"

CH *"VOS 77"* NL 9410377-94 Red Velvet *Top 15 Golden Crack Champion 96' -97'-98'*, 1/2069, 2/1883, 2/1981, 6/2404, 12/7164, 46/7514, 43/2553, 65/2958, 67/1908, 74/2796, 97/3919, also sire to more then *20 1st place winners as of 2002*.

NL 9545111-95 "BONTJE 111" WON FOUR TOP PRIZES IN 1996, SHE IS A DAUGHTER OF SUPER CRACK 69 
NL 9692837-96 

NL 9207628-92 *"KATOOG'* 4TH NATIONAL ACE VS. 35,000 AS A YB, 4TH NATIONAL ORLEANS VS. 8106 3RD VS 2955 & 3579 *6 X'S 1ST & FASTEST OF 25,000 *OB *LUDO SAID OF HIM "HE IS A VERY SPECIAL BIRD" *

*"DONKER 03"* NL 8722903-87 BC Nest sister* 1st National Orleans vs 9119 birds as a YB*


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

I for one appreciate all the posts on here for the Ludos as they truely help one decipher the good from the bad and if one is to spend all that money on a bird they sure as heck should have a pedigree of provenly raced birds with their accomplishments attached as was said ...without that how is there a worth attached to the birds in question  Thankyou Warren for that family tree as it does show one what to look for in their quest for the original bloodlines to these spectacular birds ..I was going by this link but yours has more branches I see


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> heres a site that seems to have many Ludo Claessens based birds for sale for a price if anyone is interested in looking thru them.. just curious on anyones take on how good these birds appear to be? http://racingpigeon.webs.com/ludoclaessens.htm


 I would be a little irate, if it wouldn't be so funny. I especially got a chuckle from this great line. 

*"You won't find Better Pure Ludo Claessens Anywhere in the USA!" *

That is a pretty outlandish claim. Especially when you consider, from what I have seen, he does not own a single pigeon direct from the Master himself. He can only offer 2nd generation from "stock" birds. And you can't always go by a picture, but from what I see, he got his hands on some of the poorer examples of birds bred by Carl Dewberry. And some are complete crosses, but with the Ludo side highlighted. 

But, as Learning suggested, what have the birds he produced done ? A race winner from one of these birds my be worth a look, but I didn't see any listed. What is he offering except some famous relatives in the pedigree some generations back. Just about everyone out there reading this post, has a famous bird or two somewhere in the background of their pigeon family tree. Frankly, he is asking more for the offspring from these birds, then he would have paid himself for most of the parents.

This is a good example, IMHO, biased as it must be, of a watch salesman I spoke of in a previous post. The equivalent of this for dogs, would be a puppy mill, selling "Pure Bred" dogs.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I would be a little irate, if it wouldn't be so funny. I especially got a chuckle from this great line.
> 
> *"You won't find Better Pure Ludo Claessens Anywhere in the USA!" *
> 
> ...



I myself have always found it funny how people tend to sell or try to sell birds of such said quality and they havent even raced any themsleves


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> I for one appreciate all the posts on here for the Ludos as they truely help one decipher the good from the bad and if one is to spend all that money on a bird they sure as heck should have a pedigree of provenly raced birds with their accomplishments attached as was said ...without that how is there a worth attached to the birds in question  Thankyou Warren for that family tree as it does show one what to look for in their quest for the original bloodlines to these spectacular birds ..I was going by this link but yours has more branches I see


I used the pre-1995 link, only because the red bird I was referring two, comes from stock shown in more detail in the 95' family tree. The later trees skipped some birds to make the tree more manageable in size, and to highlight which birds were being sold in a PIPA auction. In the tree you posted, I purchased the full sister to Red Quinty, a 1st Place National Winner, flying againest 10,974 pigeons, her name is Zus Red Quinty and is a prize winner herself. 

Actually, if a reader wants to know what a *"Real" * Ludo looks like, you can still visit the PIPA site, and see the most recent auction, and see what some of Ludo's bird's actually look like, and compare them to the pictures on the link you provided, if you have not seen them already. It's like trying to compare night and day. 

http://www.pipa.be/toppigeons/toppigeon.php?id=843


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*$1000 Challenge - Who really has the best from Ludo ?*

Apparently the owner of the birds on the one link provided, whose breeders are primarily from Carl Dewberry, took exception to some of my comments. I didn't think I was suggesting in my previous posts, that Bourgoin Family Lofts did not have "real" Ludo based birds, but apparently they took it that way. In order to be fair, I will share Bourgoin Family Lofts comments with you. Perhaps he is correct, I will let the readers be the judge, if I am indeed trying to capitalize on Ludo's fame. Here is the complete email, in it's entirety. 


*Actually, if a reader wants to know what a "Real" Ludo looks like, you can still visit the PIPA site, and see the most recent auction, and see what some of Ludo's bird's actually look like, and compare them to the pictures on the link you provided, if you have not seen them already. It's like trying to compare night and day. 
It was just a matter of time before I saw you talking down on my birds!! Look at the three birds you own direct from Ludo Claessens one of them is off "Rode Katoog", I own over three off a brother of "Rode Katoog" known as "Desert Fox" owned by Carl Dewberry. They have all been excellent breeders. I also own a sister to "Rode Katoog" that was Carl Dewberry's best racing daughter and is now dam to two Champion Birds in '08. Now lets take a look at the other two you have they are products of Voske 54 - Donker Wipten 72 - Katoog - Vaal Olympia - Late Rode 430 and others there base is the same as I am breeding here without the out cross that Ludo did to keep his birds winning. I am very familar with PIPA and I saw all those birds forsale in his final auction I wasnt going to spend a outrageous price for a direct Ludo bird when I already have Ludo's here breeding Top racers. I am also not trying to capitolize on Ludo's fame as you are!

I hope you dont think that because you own three directs they are better in any way than what I have here! You may think you are a expert at pigeons but if you know anything you should know to keep your mouth shut when it comes to some elses birds.

Bourgoin Family Lofts
Jon & Dave Bourgoin
(651)483-0553
http://racingpigeon.webs.com/*

Then just to be really fair, I will share Ludo's thoughts on the birds he sent me below. Perhaps Ludo is familar with some of the birds from Carl Dewberry, and has shared his comments on them with Bourgoin Family Lofts. If that is the case, then perhaps they will share Ludo's comments with us. 

Also keep in mind, that I am not a pigeon merchant, and I do not advertise the best "pure" Ludo's available in the USA. I am simply a private breeder, and a fan and supporter of Ludo, who on occasion, will make some of my excess race birds available at the end of the season, which have proven themselves in racing events, or in One Loft events such as the Winners Cup or the Flamingo International Challenge. 

Perhaps the best way to settle this issue, is for Bourgoin Family Lofts to send some YB's off their best Dewberry stock to the Winners Cup or the Flamingo, or any other premiere One Loft event in 2010, and I will again do the same, and then we can show the world who really secured the creme of the crop, and who might be making exaggerated claims.

http://smithfamilyloft.com/TestimonyLUDO.html

http://smithfamilyloft.com/LudoLetter.html

It was never my intention to "dis" Bourgoin Family Lofts birds. I did take some exception to their claim of *"You won't find Better Pure Ludo Claessens Anywhere in the USA!" *, perhaps their disagreement, is not with me, but with Ludo Claessen himself ? Since, I don't know how you can get any more "pure" then birds directly from the master himself. Yes, even if you do have to pay up for that privilege. A feather merchant must always focus on his bottom line, or profit. A private breeder, such as myself, is not concerned with pigeon sales or profit, and can simply focus on what is required to improve the colony. 

Perhaps as Bourgoin Family Lofts has suggested, I don't know anything. And that is always a possibility, but since this is still America, and people here are entitled to an opinion, and I think I have earned the right to my own opinion. 

I'm looking forward to the 2010 One Loft Events that Bourgoin Family Lofts will send birds to. If his Dewberry bred birds, happen to beat the YB's produced from the bird's I acquired directly from Ludo, then as an apology, *I will donate $1,000 to the AU Youth Fund. *If my Ludo's beat *"The purest Ludo's in the USA" from Bourgoin Family Lofts*, then perhaps they should remove their *"You won't find Better Pure Ludo Claessens Anywhere in the USA!" * claim from their web site. Does that sound fair ?

I never thought the "Best" was ever determined by pedigree anyway, call me old fashioned, I always thought it was determined on the race course, well, maybe we shall see. Right now, I would not take any bets, that Bourgoin Family Lofts will accept my public $1000 challenge. I suspect, they would simply prefer that I "Shut Up" and allow their claims to go unchallenged.


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

I know this breeder personally as I almost purchased birds from him about 3 years ago. What struck me as odd, is that they conduct business in the same fashon as Mojave Breeding Station, as by that time I had already been burnt by that S** O^ A B*****! 

Its always "Buyer Beware" when it comes to the purchase of birds these days. I agree that its all based on the trust you have with the seller. With the help of the internet and some fair investigation skills, anybody can find the historic birds along with band numbers and simply use that information in their own pedigree's. 

I have found a few of the birds, I myself purchased years back, to have false pedigree information by conducting internet research. Thank God I didnt spend to much money, but I was at a loss none-the-less.

So personally, from my experiences with both MBS and BFL, they are One-In-The-Same! They are both hustlers. I have never seen any bird from either place, score in ANY Top Futurity or One Loft Race, as I have seen SFL! If Im ever priveleged enough, I plan on trying to aquire some of SFL birds as mentioned, time will tell.

Theres my two cents.....we must have a few bucks by now....LOL


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Timber said:


> I know this breeder personally as I almost purchased birds from him about 3 years ago. What struck me as odd, is that they conduct business in the same fashon as Mojave Breeding Station, as by that time I had already been burnt by that S** O^ A B*****!
> 
> Its always "Buyer Beware" when it comes to the purchase of birds these days. I agree that its all based on the trust you have with the seller. With the help of the internet and some fair investigation skills, anybody can find the historic birds along with band numbers and simply use that information in their own pedigree's.
> 
> ...


Not to turn this thread into a Warren Smith lovefest, but I don't think you would go wrong with this strategy!

Dan


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## Timber (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I dont think it would hurt anything, thats for sure. Im just waiting to get my birds more performance proven in my area while at the same time keeping an eye on his results from the races he enters. Not to mention any posted comments about his birds from other flier posted here on this site. Im still in the research stage, you know? Not to mention, the cost Im sure it will take to make it all possible once Im ready.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

....... Now lets take a look at the other two you have they are products of Voske 54 - Donker Wipten 72 - Katoog - Vaal Olympia - Late Rode 430 and others *there base is the same as I am breeding here without the out cross that Ludo did to keep his birds winning. *I am very familar with PIPA and I saw all those birds forsale in his final auction I wasnt going to spend a outrageous price for a direct Ludo bird when I already have Ludo's here breeding Top racers. I am also not trying to capitolize on Ludo's fame as you are!

I hope you dont think that because you own three directs they are better in any way than what I have here! You may think you are a expert at pigeons but if you know anything you should know to keep your mouth shut when it comes to some elses birds.

Bourgoin Family Lofts
Jon & Dave Bourgoin
(651)483-0553
http://racingpigeon.webs.com/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I debated if I should invest any more time responding to someone who tells me to "Shut Up" because I ventured an opinion of some pictures on a web site. Since I admittedly am not an "expert" when it comes to pigeons, some would say I am not entitled to an opinion. In which case, if that were true, then 95% of the pigeon fancier population would not be entitled to an opinion either. The strange thing about this perspective, is it would only be applied when one's opinion runs contrary to the marketing of a pigeon merchant. If non-experts should happen to purchase some pigeons, and sing praises, why that opinion would be shared on web sites, advertising, etc. I guess if one were to purchase a pigeon and not like it when it arrived, well...the regular, "your no expert" perspective would kick in again, and perhaps you would be told to simply keep the bird and shut up ? Reminds me of years ago, when I was a new member, and the bully running the club told me at our club meeting to "You Shut Up, you are new here", I was told I had no opinion, and no vote. 

The other very fascinating perspective, as shared here in the letter from Bourgoin Family Lofts, is what appears to be a suggestion, that Jon & Dave Bourgoin have even more "Pure" Ludo's then Ludo himself had. And I am referring to the statement *"without the out cross that Ludo did to keep his birds winning". *
It's almost as if Jon & Dave Bourgoin are unaware as to how Ludo Claessen built this family over the last thirty some years. And that somehow those birds with the National Ace cross, somehow contaimented the "Pure lines"

I can tell you this, with authority, that Ludo himself, did not breed his birds with the idea of maintaining "Pure" lines. He was always on the look out for that very exceptional bird, that was better then what he already had. You see, Ludo did not pull out and study pedigrees, with an eye to breeding "Pure Ludo's". It is really incredible naive, as Jon & Dave Bourgoin suggest, that they own birds more "Pure Ludo" then bird's that Ludo himself bred. 

Ludo was not afraid to invest huge amounts when truly exceptional birds came along, and as Ludo said, that happened rarely because of the level his birds were at. But, he did acquire perhaps ten World Class pigeons over his career. But, I can promise you, he did not buy a bird because a pedigree said...so and so...was a great grandfather etc. He purchased great pigeons regardless of, or in spite of the pedigree. And in one case, he even used a stray which he found exceptional. Ludo was never satisfied with his bird's level of performance, he was driven to perfection. 

So if Bourgoin Family Lofts, purchased pigeons from Carl Dewberry because they were cheaper, and they didn't have that key Champion Ace cross in their background that Ludo acquired to move his colony forward to even greater performance, then they simply missed out on some really super pigeons. And one does not have to be an "expert" to understand that Ludo Claessen was a Grand Master on a World Level. All one has to do, is simply look at the birds he owned, forget the pieces of paper saying this birds grand parents were such and such. Simply look at and handle the birds. 
A piece of paper may say one thing, but look at the birds, and look at the records. 

I have owned Ludo's straight from the Master himself, and offspring from some of Ludo's racing and breeding champs, such as Silver Boy, Vos 77, De Juf, Late Rode 430, Vaal Olympia, and grand children where Vos 54 was on both sides of pedigree, etc. etc. and IMHO, the pictures I saw, of the birds being offered as the best breeders of Ludo Claessen, were not good representatives of the strain. Perhaps in person, they would appear better then some of the out of balance and duck looking birds I saw displayed. 

Go to the latest Siegel's catalog and look about the 3rd page in. Ed Minville, and his "Red Ludo" line appears much more like a classic Ludo pigeon. Forget the fact, that I happen to own some of Ludo's pigeons. As one "non-expert" to other "non-experts" who may read this post. Educate yourself, and don't rely on these "Experts" whose only interest is in getting your money.

Never buy a bird for breeding, simply because of pedigree. The bird should look and feel well balanced, and look like a racing machine. If the bird looks out of balance, and built more like a duck, well then, there is a good chance, that is what the bird is likely to produce.

I have emailed the Bourgoin Family Lofts, and have asked them to send some of their best "Pure" Ludo examples to a One Loft Event next year. Perhaps we can have a race within a race. Maybe Randy, Ace in the Hole, Whitesmore, Learning, and others would all like to enter a bird to see how we all do against Bourgoin Family Lofts and their crack breeders who are even more "Pure Ludo" then even Ludo himself had owned. I'm sure even Ludo would get a kick out of this !! 

Maybe I might even underwrite and sponser some birds from regular members of this site, I'm thinking a "Pigeon Talk" team made up of us "non-experts" could wipe out quite a few such so called "experts". If, I'm wrong, then perhaps they will share a few posts from time to time, as to how to breed great race winners. Just don't forget, not to ask any questions, otherwise you might just be told to "Shut Up".....


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2009)

lol I love this thread  Warren even if you arent considered a Ludo expert by others ,here on this forum you will always be not only our Ludo expert but also our goto guy when it comes to great birds with great results  I say more power to you and hope they take you up on your wager


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LokotaLoft said:


> lol I love this thread  Warren even if you arent considered a Ludo expert by others ,here on this forum you will always be not only our Ludo expert but also our goto guy when it comes to great birds with great results  I say more power to you and hope they take you up on your wager


 LokotaLoft,

Thank you for your kind words and support. 

I'm already starting to think better of my actions. I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. Now, I don't really know this person. But, today with an exchange of emails, I only realized today, that I had a previous very polite and cordial communication with these folks some months back in May, concerning other posts and threads on this site. 

He has taken my remarks very personally. And maybe I did back him into an unreasonable corner. I'm actually sorry if I embarrassed him. You start to slip down a very slippery slope. I am too biased at this point to be fair and objective. To be fair, and not risk turning into a bully moderator, I am putting myself on notice. 

Had the subject birds been from say Co & Piet Verbree, of which I own a very sucessful and fine specimin, and the same claims were made, most likely it would not have stuck the same cord with me. 

I excuse these folks from my "Challenge". It was a bit cocky on my part. And the only purpose, would be to hurt someone, and that is the wrong reason IMHO, to hold a sporting event, which is suppose to be fun and exciting. And it goes against my own core principals. 

I could tell that the last few flutter of emails that went back and forth, was not very productive. And I have very mixed emotions, if my contribution to this particular thread was productive. Except to determine that two professional pigeon sportsmen, don't like each other's bird's, and maybe they don't each other.

Could be a simple case of two old rooster cock birds in too close proximity to each other. We have different viewpoints. I agree to disagree, without becoming disagreeable myself. 

For me, life is too short.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2009)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> LokotaLoft,
> 
> Thank you for your kind words and support.
> 
> ...


 You are very welcome for any support I have for you and I always like to read what you have to say on all points of anything pigeon... Warren I have to say that the fact that he told you to shut up was kind of insulting and rude to say the least so I get where you might be coming from but being that you are not a beginner in the sport or with the actuality of the winners circle you have nothing to be second guessing on your points of veiw or your birds in question ... I say the proof is indeed in the pudding and your birds speak for themselves and if someone cant show or verify their own birds qualifacations within their own stock or offspring they cant really lay claim to what they are selling wether they carry the name or not ... in your own conquests you have always showed your acomplishments and the facts speak for themselves ..we have all seen the actual transactions of you buying birds from the best so you have nothing more to prove to me and I am sure many others of how well your birds are breed .. tobe honest I would have no problem buying what you consider your junk birds over someones birds that they have no racing records to speak ofs birds so dont give it a second thought wether he takes you up on your offer or not ...being part of this forum all these years for you speaks for itself on what you expect from your birds and what you have to offer to others when you chose to sell some so with me, I say there is nothing left you have to prove to the people that know you well enuf and anything you have to say is always welcome and your birds speak for themselves .. keep up the great work as for its people like you that keep this great hobby slash sport alive and very competative in all regaurds ..dont ever short change the person that you are , you will always be well respected in every regaurd to me and many others as far as pigeons go  I appreciate everything you have to say so keep it coming and never stop


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

From looking at their site, and hearing all the great things you have to say here on PT, I'd take your birds over theirs any day 

When I was browsing their site, a lot of names and band numbers popped out, but when I looked at the results page....I figured home of 'the world's greatest ludos' would do better than some club wins and just a few larger wins?  I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here?


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

Go Figure!


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