# PMV, questions and maybe answers



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

I have seen many posts about PMV and I find it very disturbing that so many are being diagnosed with this virus when I believe that it is entirely possible that some of these birds merely have a vitamin B deficiency.

The symptoms are the same. The nervous system is affected and tremors, loss of control, inability to fly, flying backwards, turning the head upside down are all symptoms of a simple vitamin B shortage. I have stated before that I have treated a few birds for this in my life and they made absolutely remarkable recoveries in a matter of days. 

I would like to know how a person is to determine that a bird has this virus. If you are going by symptoms alone with no fecal or blood test, then you may very well be making the wrong diagnosis.

I do not know how pigeons get PMV or if certain areas of the world are more likely to have contact with it than others but surely there are some regional implications. I admit to being completely ignorant of this virus other than what I have read here.

I would say that if several birds in a flock showed these symptoms that it would be much more likely to be PMV than if there was only one or two birds showing the symptoms.

Out of 500 birds in my flock, I never had more than two that were afflicted with a vitamin B deficiency at any given time. These only showed up after or during winter when mice would move into my barn lofts.

I have read posts about treating these PMV birds with homeopathic treatments. It is possible that they work but it is also possible that they are merely recovering from a vitamin B deficiency, which is easiest treated with brewers yeast tablets and you can certainly touch these tablets with your fingers without fear.

If PMV is a virus, I would expect it to be cured by some form of antibiotic. If it is a virus that runs it's course and does not kill all that have it, it is possible that homeopathic (cures?) are keeping the birds strong enough to weather the storm. From what I've read, I would expect that simple brewers yeast would accomplish exactly the same thing. Since I have no actual experience, that I am aware of, with this virus, I cannot positively tell you that it would work but I'd sure as hell try it if I ever had the chance.

I have had Pneumonia 3 times in my life and without antibiotics, I would likely be dead. My chiropractor suggested mustard packs and while it may have helped, I decided to take the hospital's advice and stick to the antibiotics.

I welcome any and all comments to this post, in fact, I will appreciate all of them.

Bill


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, you can't treat viruses with antibiotics. Antibiotics can only help stave off opportunistic bacterial infections when the immune system is appreciably diminished. That's why doctors sometimes give them when we've got a virus.

Anyhow, for those who see a lot of PMV birds, maybe they'll try the brewer's yeast and see how it works.

Pidgey


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks Pidgey*



Pidgey said:


> Well, you can't treat viruses with antibiotics. Antibiotics can only help stave off opportunistic bacterial infections when the immune system is appreciably diminished. That's why doctors sometimes give them when we've got a virus.
> 
> Anyhow, for those who see a lot of PMV birds, maybe they'll try the brewer's yeast and see how it works.
> 
> Pidgey


I can never keep straight what kind of Pneumonia that I've had. I've heard of viral and something else and all I know is that I had the kind that kills people and I nearly died when I was two years old from it. I can actually remember taking some awful tasting purple medicine that was no doubt Penicillian or Amoxicillian. I may have misspelled that.

I really hope that someone will try the brewers yeast for a PMV bird and let us know how it goes. It seems to be exactly what they need.

What you are saying makes perfect sense though. So how is a virus cured? I know alot of stuff but I ain't no doctor.

Bill


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Most viruses have to be dealt with by the immune system. We have a very few antivirals that work against a small number of viruses.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I posted the other day in a duckling thread here and recommended giving Brewer's Yeast to the duckling based on the symptoms. The Brewer's Yeast does provide Vitamin B and Niacin which are often the "miracle" cures for tiny ducklings with problems.

Bill .. your comment about mice makes me think your birds may have had Paratyphoid which can cause the head and neck twisting like PMV does .. just kind of thinking and typing at the same time here.

Terry


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Vitamin B in the form of Brewers Yeast, or any other, won't cure a viral infection. Let no one think hey presto, here's a miracle cure for PMV. But, if a bird is given a good pigeon diet, then, even without Brewers Yeast it should show a good response fairly soon if the problem was just a vitamin deficiency. By all means give it Brewers Yeast whatever you may think the problem is. As Bill said somewhere, it may help and it won't harm. 

If anyone finds a bird which _appears_ to have the symptoms of PMV, isolate it for a good six weeks anyway. Fact is, some birds have mild symptoms, some severe. Whichever, if it does have PMV it will be shedding the virus. Even if the symptoms seem to abate in a short time, why take a chance with a bird's life or that of a bird it may come into contact with? 

I think, Bill, you said that the vitamin deficient birds you found, recovered in 3 - 4 days? If that happens with a bird suspected of PMV then it _may_ well actually be a simple vitamin B deficiency. Well, as I said elsewhere, we have not had a bird who has recovered from the neurological symptoms in that time span or anything like it. We have found birds who are obviously 'not well', and taken them in for observation, and had them display various symptoms of PMV as much as a week later. 

How do we diagnose PMV, you asked. If people have the funds and opportunity to get tests done with every bird they get, to check for PMV or a simple vitamin deficiency or both, good for them. To me, if it looks like PMV it probably is, simply because every suspected case we had has been proven out over time. 

Paratyphoid, as Terry said, is also sometimes taken for PMV- but PMV has symptoms not written up for paratyphoid. Both may show strange positions of the head like 'startgazing', but the spinning in circles, seed tossing, loss of focus for instance are typical PMV symptoms.


Bill, I'd like to see where there is something written up about these symptoms of Vit B deficiency. This is the first time I have seen anything about it causing the same symptoms (outward ones, anyway) as PMV. Maybe I've just missed it in the pigeon health books. Can you point us to a good reference?

Just found passing reference in "Fit to Win" by Wim Peters - effects of vitamin depletion ... tremors and 'nervous symptons' 
John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Bill,

A few years ago I found the description of symptoms of vitamin B deficiency on the internet and I got very excited about the implications of this and my PMV rescues.

When you refer to your "flock of 500" do you mean feral pigeons or your own homers?

I have never seen PMV in a homer, nor have I seen a homer on this forum "diagnosed" as having PMV. Pigeon fanciers in the UK are required to innoculate their birds annually, so even if the birds drop out and mix with a feral flock they are protected from the disease.

PMV is endemic among the UK ferals. I have a long history of rescuing them and nursing them back to health (although a few retain the nervous symtoms).

Among the recommendations on our website for nursing pigeons with PMV there is "vitamin supplements". The supplements that we give include vitamins B1, B2, B6 and B12. However, giving these supplements has never speeded up recovery, the disease just takes its course and the nervous symptoms continue for 12 or more weeks.

I must give a word of warning about the use of Brewers Yeast on pigeons that are even suspected of having PMV. PMV makes the pigeons vulnerable to aspergillosis. We had a member with little experience of PMV who decided to treat his PMV rescues with Brewers Yeast and with Baytril (the Baytril in case there was an opportunistic infection lurking somwhere). The combination of Brewers Yeast and antibiotics is a recipe for aspergillosis and giving this to birds that are already vulnerable to aspergillosis can seal their fate. Needless to say a number of these rescues were tested positive for aspergillosis and, as far as I know, had to be euthanased.

In the 9 years that I have been treating pigeons with PMV I have only had one die. She developed Mycoplasmosis and died despite veterinary treatment).



> I would like to know how a person is to determine that a bird has this virus. If you are going by symptoms alone with no fecal or blood test, then you may very well be making the wrong diagnosis.


The alternative, at least in the UK, would mean certain death for the pigeon. PMV is a notifiable disease. If a firm diagnosis is made then vets and sanctuaries are required to destroy pigeons with PMV.



Cynthia


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## BirdDust (Feb 8, 2008)

I have also seen these same symptoms in birds with niacin and/or magnesium deficiencies. It also has the same symptoms in birds with botulism. However, if the deficiency is addressed, the bird recovers fast and is not left with neurological deficits as with PMV. On the other hand, birds with conditions like severe canker that are nutritionally compromised to the point of death have never shown the physical symptoms of a vitamin/mineral deficiency such as head twisting, tremors, tumbling backwards etc. Possibly the only way you would be able to prove your theory is draw blood samples from birds at the beginning of symptoms, and do the tests to see if there is are any abnormalities to rule out that a bird does or does not have PMV verses a vitamin/mineral deficiency. I wish there was a simple answer.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thank you Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> I posted the other day in a duckling thread here and recommended giving Brewer's Yeast to the duckling based on the symptoms. The Brewer's Yeast does provide Vitamin B and Niacin which are often the "miracle" cures for tiny ducklings with problems.
> 
> Bill .. your comment about mice makes me think your birds may have had Paratyphoid which can cause the head and neck twisting like PMV does .. just kind of thinking and typing at the same time here.
> 
> Terry


I appreciate your input. If my birds had Paratyphoid, I'm sure that they would not have recovered just by taking vitamin B. In addition, I always treated at least once a year to avoid Paratyphoid as I have seen and know what it can do. 2 birds out of 500 having Paratyphoid would be highly unusual.

My birds have never been Homers but mostly show breeds and flying breeds and most were never out to fly loose.

As to the little ducklings, I have seen these symptoms in ducklings that were caused by feeding medicated feed or chick starter. Ducklings cannot take the medication that is given to chickens and game birds and it will actually exhibit these symptoms and they are likely to die.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hello John*



John_D said:


> Vitamin B in the form of Brewers Yeast, or any other, won't cure a viral infection. Let no one think hey presto, here's a miracle cure for PMV. But, if a bird is given a good pigeon diet, then, even without Brewers Yeast it should show a good response fairly soon if the problem was just a vitamin deficiency. By all means give it Brewers Yeast whatever you may think the problem is. As Bill said somewhere, it may help and it won't harm.
> 
> If anyone finds a bird which _appears_ to have the symptoms of PMV, isolate it for a good six weeks anyway. Fact is, some birds have mild symptoms, some severe. Whichever, if it does have PMV it will be shedding the virus. Even if the symptoms seem to abate in a short time, why take a chance with a bird's life or that of a bird it may come into contact with?
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your input. I appreciate it very much.
For any of you here to listen to me is rewarding.

I have not claimed that brewers yeast is a miracle cure or panacea for anything. Merely that it does show remarkable recoveries in pigeons that exhibited the classic signs of PMV. Apparently, if the bird truly had PMV, it may show signs of improvement but would still need a cure for PMV or at least live long enough for the virus to run it's course.
If it was merely suffering from a vitamin B deficiency, it would actually be cured, as I have witnessed a few times.

I said the same thing about a bird with these symptoms and I would certainly isolate it, both for it's own protection, as it is defenseless, and for the protection of other birds should it have something more serious or contagious.

You have said that all of your suspected cases have proven out to be in fact PMV. Would that also be true, here in the US. I don't know but I doubt it. I would like to see it proven in any possible case but I suppose that is impossible.

I have seen Paratyphoid in several birds and have only seen droopy wings, the inability to fly, lameness and green droppings as a result of it. I cannot say of course that other symptoms may or may not occur, I just haven't seen them.

I'm glad you found something written because I've never seen it. It seemed that I was the first to write of it until you found something as it appears that no one has ever heard of it. I heard of it from Clair Hetland, who owned Foys Pigeon Supply for many years and I bought supplies from him for over 40 years. I called him back in the 70's and described a bird with the symptoms when he immediately suggested that it had a vitamin B deficiency and could be cured with brewers yeast. He was absolutely correct and any bird I ever had like it was cured very quickly with brewers yeast. I don't think I've ever heard anyone else claim this but as I said earlier, in a large group of German Toys that I had purchased back in the early 80's, with all supplies, I found a bottle of brewers yeast and just assumed that he knew of this as well.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thanks cyro*



cyro51 said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> A few years ago I found the description of symptoms of vitamin B deficiency on the internet and I got very excited about the implications of this and my PMV rescues.
> 
> ...


I think I already goofed and answered your question in my reply to Terry. My flock of 500 pigeons was all show breeds that were mostly German Toys and performing fliers, such as tumblers, Orliks, Skycutters, highfliers, etc. Most of them were never allowed to fly loose as they were too expensive and rare for me to lose. This meant very little if any contact with wild birds.

It appears that there is a very big problem with PMV in the UK. I actually have no idea if it is even in the US. This is why I suggested that it likely has regional implications.

Baytril is strong medicine and is getting harder to buy in the US. I won't use it as Sulphas cure the same as far as I know and are much milder for the birds. Is this what is used to cure PMV? If so, of course I would use it and I would not treat with brewers yeast at the same time. I would try the brewers yeast first and if I saw no improvement in a few days, I would go to the Baytril. You may very well have a completely different situation in the UK than we have in the US. I would take into consideration the time of year and whether my birds were likely to have been in contact with rodents before I made a decision as they are the ones that cause the deficiency in the first place.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> As to the little ducklings, I have seen these symptoms in ducklings that were caused by feeding medicated feed or chick starter. Ducklings cannot take the medication that is given to chickens and game birds and it will actually exhibit these symptoms and they are likely to die.
> 
> Bill


You are correct in what you posted, Bill. I was noting that young ducks who have been "rescued" and fed white bread, water, milk, pizza, or nothing .. they have problems that Brewer's Yeast can help.

I totally agree that medicated chicken feeds are not the best choice for ducklings!

Terry


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi Bill,



jbangelfish said:


> It appears that there is a very big problem with PMV in the UK. I actually have no idea if it is even in the US. This is why I suggested that it likely has regional implications.



"Paramyxovirus was first recognized as a disease in pigeons in 1975. It spread through Europe by 1983 and by 1984, was present on the east coast and in Canada. It is now present in pigeon flocks throughout the US."

http://www.epah.net/birds/Paramyxovirus.html

"PMV in pigeons was first reported in the Sudan and subsequently moved towards Europe, reaching first Italy, Spain and Portugal then Holland, Belgium, Germany and France. In June 1983, racing pigeons were found to be affected in Cornwall, the first case in Great Britain. Since then hundreds of cases have been identified."

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/pigeons/index.htm

It isn't clear how it arrived in the USA or the UK, but I'd think it a possibility that it came with racing pigeons imported from Europe. Since ferals are very much homebodies, the spread would have to be through pigeons being transported, or by the virus being carried on or in something.



> Baytril is strong medicine and is getting harder to buy in the US. I won't use it as Sulphas cure the same as far as I know and are much milder for the birds. Is this what is used to cure PMV? If so, of course I would use it and I would not treat with brewers yeast at the same time.


The Baytril connection is only that some people may give it to a suspected PMV bird as a 'just in case' measure, to treat potential secondary infections it may have in it's weakened state. Personally I would not give it, unless there were definite symptoms of some concurrent problem. 



> I have seen Paratyphoid in several birds and have only seen droopy wings, the inability to fly, lameness and green droppings as a result of it. I cannot say of course that other symptoms may or may not occur, I just haven't seen them.


Just shows how different people's experiences are on the forum, Bill. I don't believe we have ever had a pigeon with Paratyphoid, even though one might expect to come across some ferals with it. 

John


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Stronger than that*



TAWhatley said:


> You are correct in what you posted, Bill. I was noting that young ducks who have been "rescued" and fed white bread, water, milk, pizza, or nothing .. they have problems that Brewer's Yeast can help.
> 
> I totally agree that medicated chicken feeds are not the best choice for ducklings!
> 
> Terry


Medicated feed will kill them, it is important for people to know that. They need to be fed non medicated grower.

Another time that I have seen similar symptoms in ducklings was when they had been without water for too long. I had purchased 25 mallard ducklings from a hatchery and they were delivered be the REA or Railway Express Agency. (This was a long time ago). Their shipment got delayed for some reason and they did not have any feed or water. The people at the REA office gave them water as some were already DOA. When I went to pick them up, they were spinning and had very poor muscle control and if I remember right, only about 5 or 6 of them survived. The people at the REA office felt terrible and I was heartbroken.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Very interesting John*



John_D said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of your help.

The fact that this disease (PMV) has reached the US and Canada is troublesome. Something new for me to worry about. I'm sure that it came with birds shipped in from Europe as you say. These types of things have made for import/export bans of birds in much of the world.

Interesting that you've never seen Paratyphoid as it's fairly common here. I bought a few pigeons from some unsavory dealers over the years to get some rare and unusual breeds and this was usually where I would find it. The birds arrived with bright green feces smeared on their wing tips and tails. Sometimes they would show the droopy wing symptom as well. It is fairly easy to cure but they may never completely recover in that the wing will always appear as arthritic and droop lower than the other. If the disease is untreated for long enough, it can render them flightless forever.

This forum reaches around the world and makes for interesting comparisons and confusing ones at the same time. I try to be hesitant in my addressing of issues in foreign lands as I do not know what they may have encountered as I may very well have never seen it before.

Along with different problems, foreign cultures are quite different from our own and while we may think certain treatments of birds and animals as inappropriate, they are regarded as perfectly normal elsewhere. I do try to choose my words very carefully in these situations.

Thanks to all who have participated in this thread as I have found it to be very helpful for my understanding of this new problem. (new to me)

Bill


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## tms1950 (Aug 23, 2005)

Well this thread has been most interesting to me as a wild bird rehabilitator.A number of times I have gotten in pigeons,doves and even a cardinal that exhibited what I figured was a neurological injury with their body twisting up or their heads turning upside down and tails twisting to the side.My vet had told me that it was brain damage and they would die soon,which they did.Next time I will try the brewers yeast just to see if that will make a difference.I am not familiar with PMV at all,so anyone that can enlighten me on what to look for would be appreciated.I rarely can afford to do fecals & bloodwork since I take in 150-200 songbirds a year.I`d appreciate it if you could personally e-mail me at [email protected].
Teresa
For The Birds Wildlife Rehab


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

tms1950 said:


> *I am not familiar with PMV at all,so anyone that can enlighten me on what to look for would be appreciated.*
> 
> Teresa


Here's the link to Cynthia's (cyro51) wonderful piece on PMV, Teresa.
It's a great reference.
http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm

Cindy


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Songbirds are quite a challenge*



tms1950 said:


> Well this thread has been most interesting to me as a wild bird rehabilitator.A number of times I have gotten in pigeons,doves and even a cardinal that exhibited what I figured was a neurological injury with their body twisting up or their heads turning upside down and tails twisting to the side.My vet had told me that it was brain damage and they would die soon,which they did.Next time I will try the brewers yeast just to see if that will make a difference.I am not familiar with PMV at all,so anyone that can enlighten me on what to look for would be appreciated.I rarely can afford to do fecals & bloodwork since I take in 150-200 songbirds a year.I`d appreciate it if you could personally e-mail me at [email protected].
> Teresa
> For The Birds Wildlife Rehab


My success with rehabbing them has not been so great. Their food requirements are vastly different even from one species to another and they are always quite fearful of us. I have never had one with what I would describe as a vitamin B deficiency but you probably have, due to the number of wild birds that you have taken care of. I would certainly try vitamin B in some form in these cases. I have found weak birds to very often be infested with mites or lice. Whether it is because they are weak in the first place or because the infestations made them weak, I do not know. It has just been my observation of birds that were too weak to fly in many cases.

My experiences with pigeons are in a vast majority of cases with captive bred birds. This tends to limit what I am dealing with. For the most part, I know what to look for and how to take care of it.

Keep up your good work and thank you for doing what you do. I have rehabbed and released several wild birds and it is a very good feeling to give them their freedom once again.

Bill


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

jbangelfish said:


> Another time that I have seen similar symptoms in ducklings was when they had been without water for too long. I had purchased 25 mallard ducklings from a hatchery and they were delivered be the REA or Railway Express Agency. (This was a long time ago). Their shipment got delayed for some reason and they did not have any feed or water. The people at the REA office gave them water as some were already DOA. When I went to pick them up, they were spinning and had very poor muscle control and if I remember right, only about 5 or 6 of them survived. The people at the REA office felt terrible and I was heartbroken.
> 
> Bill


This is also quite true .. dehydration/water deprivation is a very effective way to kill a duckling. Sadly, once you provide "free range" water to such ducklings, they gorge on the water and can and do die from it.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

tms1950 said:


> Well this thread has been most interesting to me as a wild bird rehabilitator.A number of times I have gotten in pigeons,doves and even a cardinal that exhibited what I figured was a neurological injury with their body twisting up or their heads turning upside down and tails twisting to the side.My vet had told me that it was brain damage and they would die soon,which they did.Next time I will try the brewers yeast just to see if that will make a difference.I am not familiar with PMV at all,so anyone that can enlighten me on what to look for would be appreciated.I rarely can afford to do fecals & bloodwork since I take in 150-200 songbirds a year.I`d appreciate it if you could personally e-mail me at [email protected].
> Teresa
> For The Birds Wildlife Rehab


Well, you certainly must have a busy spring, summer and fall caring for so many songbirds. We did this for many years until, because of our age, we had to stop taking in songbirds and now just care for pigeons.

I think the most important thing in caring for a songbird with neuro problems is supportive care. Keeping them in a quiet area, away from harsh lights and noise is the first thing to do. Allow no water in their cage until you see an improvement in their movements. Many must be hand fed for a while and a daily check on their weight loss/gain is a must. You also have to be extremely patient when feeding them. They are very afraid but I've found that if you hold them loosely with a tissue wrapped around them that they will eventually take feed from you. Initially, I think most of those we got in would stab at the food like they were attacking it and then discover that it was something they liked. We use Science Diet Adult Small Bites, soaked but not soggy and that satisfies their water requirements without having to worry about them drowning. Supplement with bites of grape or apple. Feed them about every 2 hours.

We have had some success with this method and although recovery took a few days to a few weeks many were able to be released.

 Add a lot of love. Believe me, they know when you're trying to help them.


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## Popeye Pigeon (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm also a rehabber & I've just had an outbreak of PMV in my pigeon fledglings. There are two ways that PMV can present - 1) neurological - with the head twisting, sinus discharge, tremors, & wing/leg paralysis 2) kidneys - extreme thirst, regurgitation, severe diuresis (looks like somebody spilled a glass of water in the cage with very few discernible droppings), & going light. Fledglings usually succomb within 24 -72 hours.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bill, 



Good mention on the Vitamine "B" issue.


Indeed, there is a tendency for people having a little aquaintance with Pigeon illnesses, to be a little anxious to associate any neurological or co-ordination problems seen in a Pigeon, with the PPMV.


PPMV can and does have many 'faces', and these 'faces' in my experience anyway, seem to occur in fairly recognisable differences in different age groups, and, with at least several fairly recognisable syndromes per age group, once one has seen enough of them to begin noting patterns.


Probably, those Birds who are Vitamine deficient, if contracting the PPMV, would also fall into syndromes where their symptoms are being effected by the Vitamin issue...or by other un-assayed conditions in which individual Pigeons ay differ.


Possibly also, given that Paratyphoid can occasion symptoms which are within the range of 'faces' that can be associated with the PPMV - were one to treat for Paratyphoid and see a remission of symptoms, one could suppose that it had not been the PPMV effecting the Pigeon in question.



Brewer's Yeast is understood to be dangerous when given concurrently with various Antibiotics, oweing to how the antibiotics reduce or supress the normal background Flora and Fauna of the Bird's digestive system...where, the Active Yeast Organisms can enthuse into a Yeast infection then, if not also paving the way for additional opportunists such as Candida, or as John mentions, Aspirgillosis infections...or other ones also.


Possibly, were one wishing to give the Pigeon Brewer's Yeast concurrently with Antibiotics known to warrent caution in that situation, one could also concurrently give Raw Apple Cider Vinegar to effect the PH and inhibit immodest exuberance of Yeast or other Organisms.

'Medistatin' also might be worth considering.


Vitamine "B" Suppliments, containing the several kinds of "B" Vitamines, can also be given as such ( in the Pigeon's Water or Food ) , without recourse to Brewer's Yeast, and, then, without the potentiaql liabilities associated with Brewer's Yeast during antibiotic regimens.

This would seem simpler and safer to my thinking.


Good thread..!


Chock full of good mentions we all do well to brood on...


Best wishes!


Phil
L v


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Phil*

Yes, we've been warned of the dangers of yeast with antibiotics and that's all well and good. I never have administered more than one treatment at a time and always give a good span of time between any treatments. I also rarely dealt with ferals or sick wild birds and was mostly treating my own flocks of birds which have been fairly well protected.

I still consider the antibiotics to be more dangerous than the brewers yeast and don't understand why people do not try this remedy for PMV symptoms which seem to be mostly the symptoms of vitamin B deficiency in the first place. Furthermore, there is no antibiotic for PMV, only vaccines, which can only prevent, not treat the disease.

If I found a sick wild bird that exhibited the neurological symptoms of PMV, I'd look at the droppings. If I did not suspect Paratyphoid (I've never seen Paratyphoid present these symptoms but have read that it can), I'd give it brewers yeast and nothing else and note the progress. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I would do. If I saw no progress in a few days, I'd look to something else.

I'm still hoping someone will try this for the symptoms and I'd love to hear the results.



Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

jbangelfish said:


> Yes, we've been warned of the dangers of yeast with antibiotics and that's all well and good. I never have administered more than one treatment at a time and always give a good span of time between any treatments.



Hi Bill, 


In the above paragraph, there is an ambiguity - do you mean 'treatments' of Antibiotics? Or treatments of providing/feeding Brewer's 'Yeast'?





> I also rarely dealt with ferals or sick wild birds and was mostly treating my own flocks of birds which have been fairly well protected.



Dealing with ill, injured, ill-and-injured and or Logsitically Orphan Baby or youngster feral Pigeons whom one accepts one today, one tomorrow, two on Thursday, none on Friday, Two on Saturday...where one brings them in, cares for them variously...


And dealing with the illnesses or injurys of one's own Birds who live indoors...


Are in many ways a different sort of thing as forthe kinds of things one is going to be dealing withr-0.


In a week, one might get seven very different illnesses in seven different ferals...whether or not any are in a pre-syptomatic phase of PPMV.


Where, this would not tend to happen with the Pigeons one has in keeping Pigeons for racing or show or as may be.


[quote
I still consider the antibiotics to be more dangerous than the brewers yeast and don't understand why people do not try this remedy for PMV symptoms which seem to be mostly the symptoms of vitamin B deficiency in the first place. Furthermore, there is no antibiotic for PMV, only vaccines, which can only prevent, not treat the disease.[/quote]



What is it you think is 'dangerous' about Antibiotics?



Bear in mind please, that antibiotics are not used for treating PPMV.

But, they may be used to treat, or to pre-emptively treat prospective Bacterial illnesses which can occur with Pigeons who have PPMV.


I agree definitely, that there are various things which one might assume are PPMV because of the symptoms, but which are actually something else...and we do well both to keep that in mind, and to also consider to use any bengign treatments which can cover these other things when confronting a possible PPMV Pigeon.




> If I found a sick wild bird that exhibited the neurological symptoms of PMV, I'd look at the droppings. If I did not suspect Paratyphoid (I've never seen Paratyphoid present these symptoms but have read that it can), I'd give it brewers yeast and nothing else and note the progress. Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I would do. If I saw no progress in a few days, I'd look to something else.




Well...I have had Pigeons who had crashed into Windows, or who had been hit by Cars, post fledglings who had been suffering privation, and who were then brought to me, where, proabably quite a few people would have said "Oh, that looks like PPMV"...

Now, of course, a PPMV Pigeon in early stages of neurological syptoms, still flying, flying poorly, can crash into all sorts of things, or get hit by a Car, end up grounded and starving, but...

One pretty well has to regard each in-coming Pigeon on a case-by-case basis and to decide what it is one thingks is going on, and, what one is going to treat.



Some injured or sick Pigeons have PPMV but are not syptomatic yet, even though ill or injured with something else.

As they get over the something else, the PPMV can proceed to a syptomatic phase, and then the Pigeon has that to deal with for a while...as does the care-giver.





> I'm still hoping someone will try this for the symptoms and I'd love to hear the results.



I think providing enhanced Nutrition, including Brewyer's Yeast, is good to do for any situation of Pigeon convelesence, unless one suspects or is treating a Yeast or Candida infection, or, when the Pigeon is on an antibiotic regimen, or has a foreign object in their Crop or has hints of having a Crop issue suggestive of a foreign object being lodged in there.


Probably, for a PPMV Pigeon who is not on an antibiotic regimen for bacterial infections or bacterial illness, if one does wish to see them get "B" Vitamines supplimentally, one can simply use a B Vitamine suppliment instead of the Brewer's Yeast, thus nicely avoiding any potential risks of a Yeast causing an additional infection.


Now, PPMV supposedly can cause weak Legs in youngsters, even when no other PPMV sorts of symptoms are present.


And, so can a Vitamine "B" deficiency.


I did not know this untell recently, when Terry W had reminded about Baby Ducks getting Leg weakness from B Vitamine deficiency.

I had three indoor 'squeakers' whose Legs got weak and I did not know what the heck was going on.


The "B" Vitamine suppliments I gave them soon corrected the issue.



So, definitely, we do well to consider treating for B Vitamine deficiency, if confronting weak Legs in youngsters, when there is no other cause to attribute it to.

Of course lots of things can cause appearently weak Legs, which are not because of a B Vitamine issue, so the context of each Pigeon's history is very important, to the extent we can determine it's history anyway.




> Bill


Good thread..!



Phil
l v


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2008)

There is no correlation between Brewers Yeast and aspergillosis. Unfortunately, I had some PMV birds that died of aspergillosis and I had mentioned that concurrently with the PMV, I was giving Brewers Yeast. Somebody here made the erroneous asssertion that it was the yeast that gave the birds the aspergillus and I temporarily fell for it.

In speaking with certified avian vets about the misfortune, I was told that Brewers Yeast had nothing to do with the aspergillosis and that it was best to look elsewhere for causes. For one thing, it takes many weeks for aspergillus to kill a bird and it was suggested by these vets that the birds came in with the disease.

Additionally, there is scientific evidence that certain yeast organisms can inhibit the growth of certain types of fungi and their aflatoxins:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub..._no_115=167562

Brewers Yeast is an excellent source of the B complex vitamins.
Reply With Quote


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Phil*



pdpbison said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> In the above paragraph, there is an ambiguity - do you mean 'treatments' of Antibiotics? Or treatments of providing/feeding Brewer's 'Yeast'?
> ...




What is it you think is 'dangerous' about Antibiotics?

{Strong meds like Baytril kill all bacteria, both good and bad. This concerns me and I don't use it. It seems to me that Sulpha drugs treat all of the same diseases and are less risky to an already sick bird. I use these with caution as well and only give them as a once a year prevention or to cure a problem that I am certain exists. }



Bear in mind please, that antibiotics are not used for treating PPMV.

{I know this and is all the more reason why I don't understand people not giving brewers yeast or at least some form of vitamin B to treat a bird that appears to be deficient in vitamin B. It seems to me that you said you have used it and you are probably the first that I have heard doing so.}

But, they may be used to treat, or to pre-emptively treat prospective Bacterial illnesses which can occur with Pigeons who have PPMV.


I agree definitely, that there are various things which one might assume are PPMV because of the symptoms, but which are actually something else...and we do well both to keep that in mind, and to also consider to use any bengign treatments which can cover these other things when confronting a possible PPMV Pigeon.






Well...I have had Pigeons who had crashed into Windows, or who had been hit by Cars, post fledglings who had been suffering privation, and who were then brought to me, where, proabably quite a few people would have said "Oh, that looks like PPMV"...

Now, of course, a PPMV Pigeon in early stages of neurological syptoms, still flying, flying poorly, can crash into all sorts of things, or get hit by a Car, end up grounded and starving, but...

One pretty well has to regard each in-coming Pigeon on a case-by-case basis and to decide what it is one thingks is going on, and, what one is going to treat.

{I agree and wonder how so many are sure that a bird has it when it may very well be something else.}



Some injured or sick Pigeons have PPMV but are not syptomatic yet, even though ill or injured with something else.

As they get over the something else, the PPMV can proceed to a syptomatic phase, and then the Pigeon has that to deal with for a while...as does the care-giver.

{Yes, that's why it would be best to isolate any newcomer until they can be observed for a reasonable time and treated for whatever one finds.}






I think providing enhanced Nutrition, including Brewyer's Yeast, is good to do for any situation of Pigeon convelesence, unless one suspects or is treating a Yeast or Candida infection, or, when the Pigeon is on an antibiotic regimen, or has a foreign object in their Crop or has hints of having a Crop issue suggestive of a foreign object being lodged in there.


Probably, for a PPMV Pigeon who is not on an antibiotic regimen for bacterial infections or bacterial illness, if one does wish to see them get "B" Vitamines supplimentally, one can simply use a B Vitamine suppliment instead of the Brewer's Yeast, thus nicely avoiding any potential risks of a Yeast causing an additional infection.

{I agree with that as well, I just wouldn't know which B vitamins to give and brewers yeast worked very effectively for me with birds that I treated many years ago for this deficiency.}


Now, PPMV supposedly can cause weak Legs in youngsters, even when no other PPMV sorts of symptoms are present.


And, so can a Vitamine "B" deficiency.


I did not know this untell recently, when Terry W had reminded about Baby Ducks getting Leg weakness from B Vitamine deficiency.

I had three indoor 'squeakers' whose Legs got weak and I did not know what the heck was going on.


The "B" Vitamine suppliments I gave them soon corrected the issue.



So, definitely, we do well to consider treating for B Vitamine deficiency, if confronting weak Legs in youngsters, when there is no other cause to attribute it to.

Of course lots of things can cause appearently weak Legs, which are not because of a B Vitamine issue, so the context of each Pigeon's history is very important, to the extent we can determine it's history anyway.

{I am glad you posted this and I hope people are reading.}



Good thread..!



Phil
l v[/QUOTE]

Thanks for all,
Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*What is the dosage?*



pigeonperson said:


> There is no correlation between Brewers Yeast and aspergillosis. Unfortunately, I had some PMV birds that died of aspergillosis and I had mentioned that concurrently with the PMV, I was giving Brewers Yeast. Somebody here made the erroneous asssertion that it was the yeast that gave the birds the aspergillus and I temporarily fell for it.
> 
> In speaking with certified avian vets about the misfortune, I was told that Brewers Yeast had nothing to do with the aspergillosis and that it was best to look elsewhere for causes. For one thing, it takes many weeks for aspergillus to kill a bird and it was suggested by these vets that the birds came in with the disease.
> 
> ...


This is very encouraging to see. I didn't think it possible that I could be the last person on earth to use the stuff. It's been so long ago for me though that I have forgotten how much I used to give them. I thought whole tablets and mine were 750mg but I just don't remember for sure and suggested using half or thirds of that amount to be safe. 

Bill


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bill, all...





What I got into doing a long time ago, and shame on me for not doing it more often, for every Bird here...


Is to take however much Seed is right for everyone's next feed-time, of whatever one's Seed-mix is, in a clean container which is larger than the Seed volume, so there is room to stirr really thoroughly, and add just enough fresh Olive Oil as will give all the Seeds a very light 'glisten'.

It does not take much! And it is very easy to accidently add too much and everything then is really too Oily and messy, and the Birds will not like it.


This then allows any sort of powder to adhere to the Seeds, and, of course, for Pigeons and Doves eating the Seeds without shelling them as other Species do, they also get whatever the powders are.



Good 'powders' to use, are Brewer's Yeast...Purple Dulce ( or other tasty Sea Weed kinds, made into fine powder in one's Coffee Grinder if need be ) a little powdered Multi-Vitamines maybe ( such as 'Nexon T' or other )...a little Licorice or Anise powder just for fun now and then, and now and then, even add however much finely minced fresh raw Garlic they can stand.



And, once all is stirred really thoroughly, for these Seeds then to be eaten for that immediate feed time, so only mix as much as will be eaten that feed session, since the Olive Oil deteriorates on exposure to Air.


Scrub out the container with Soap and Water, dry, have ready for next time.


Good point you made Bill on Vitamines in Water going kind of 'iffy' with probable unwanted Bacteria, saliva reflux and whatever else contributing.


What I do when giving Vitamines in their Waterers, is easy, since they finish off the Gallon waterer reliably in about 14 hours or so, sooner in Summer, so it does not have time to get 'iffy'..and each Waterer gets scrubbed out well with Soap and Bleach before being re-filled.



Where, of course, powdered Vitamines or Suppliments on their Seeds ( as above described ) the Seeds get eaten that feed-time, and that's that...



I think any actual 'foods' and Natural Food suppliments they will eat ( when given to them sensibly of course ) is the best deal...and if for whatever reason one has not been up to par prividing these, then prudent/moderate Vitamine Suppliments of course would best the next best thing.

Fresh Sprouts, fresh Greens such as Kales, Mustard Greens, tender Collard Greens, Chards, Cilantro, Parsely, all these are very good for them, but many ( most? ) Pigeons do not know to eat them, and may need the example of an older or wiser Pigeons to show them.

Once they see another Pigeon eating them, they usually want to try it, and once they try it, they like it.


Sometimes, if with a Pigeon one knows fairly well, one can set the example one's self by hamming it up and getting their attention and indicating how good it is, and holding out a Leaf or thin torn off part of a Leaf for them to try.


Cutting the Leaves into really tiny pieces ( 1/8th inch Diamond shapes seem to work well, since the Pigeon or Dove can peck these easily, so cutting it up into tiny bits ) with Scissors, and setting the little pieces into a pile next to a little pile of Seeds, also is a good way to try and get them started, making sure they know or can see that these little pieces came from the Leaves in question.

Soon then, they will peck off bites from the whole Leaves.


In Nature, Pigeons and Doves seek out and eat many sorts of low bitter or sweet Weeds and Plant-leaves and tender shoots according to their judgement, decimating the plants someties to where only 'stems' remain...and seeking out and eating also many kinds of 'green' Seeds or small fruiting Bodys of Weeds and Plants.


Fresh Greens should be included in their diet, and various darker fresh Greens which are easy for us to get at the Grocry Store, are perfect


Spinach should be either avoided, or allowed in small amounts only occasionally, oweing to how it contains Acids not favorable to the Birds' systems.


I know all 'my' pre-release recovered ferals and other ones in here really loved their dried Sea Weed, and there was one Brand they prefered and I can not get it anymore

It was a thin ragged 'disc' about 10 inches across, 1/4 inch thick, and of fine, really fine Sea Weed Leaves.

I'd put one of those into the front room here, and everyone would peck and scatter it, and in an hour or less, they'd have cleaned it all up till NONE was remaining.


That Sea Weed was a nice way for their little Thyroids to get that little bit of Iodine they need...too...as well as soe Natural Vitamine "A".





Phil
l v


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> There is no correlation between Brewers Yeast and PMV.


No, there issn't. However, pigeons with PMV are susceptible to aspergillosis, and there is evidence that aspergillosis is caused by giving antibiotics concurrently with Brewers Yeast.



> Unfortunately, I had some PMV birds that died of aspergillosis and I had mentioned that concurrently with the PMV, I was giving Brewers Yeast. *Somebody here made the erroneous asssertion that it was the yeast that gave the birds the aspergillus and I temporarily fell for it*.


Aspergillus:
Symptoms of the Disease:
Two of the main causes are moldy maize or peanuts, which by definition are also two main ingredients of the pigeons diet. Maize should be checked regularly and peanuts purchased only if fit for human consumption and fed in small amounts only due to their limited storability. 
Another cause of fungus disorder may lie due to bad loft management i.e. damp hay or straw. *A further cause comes by the addition of Brewers Yeast to the feed whilst treating the bird with antibiotics, as the bird caretaker adds a mould to a mould and in many cases negates the medical treatment. Young pigeons in the nest are very susceptible to fungus disorders; there is a time to use Yeast and a time to withhold it. These are two of them.* 

http://dcppp.com/DenicaPDMiscProblems.htm

It would be a shame to risk a pigeon's life by giving antibiotics and brewer's yeast concurrently. 

Cynthia


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Bill, I was just leafing through Levi's "The Pigeon" when I came across this little snippet, which I thought was interesting:



> "Experiments on vitamin B deficiency have shown that that the body temperature falls several degrees, and near death it falls rapidly."


So that sounds like a good indicator.

He also gives a more comprehensive outline of the symptoms of polyneuritis caused by vitamin B deficiency, which he also calls "the blind staggers":



> "In polyneuritis, there is a loss of coordinating powers of the nerves and muscles. The bird is uncertain on its feet and walks unsteadily. Some cannot stand and brace themselves on their tail feathers.Others perform "cartwheels" backwards.Others twist their heads around until their beaks point upwards. Nearly all birds, regardless of the stage of the malady, show a definite nervous tremble or palsy. The feathers are somewhat ruffled and dry. There i a decided loss of appetite, and unless the trouble is correctly treated emaciation follows.


He also points out that wheat is high in vitamin B . He adds (in another section) that legumes, lentils and beans have a higer vitamin D content than cereals. The examples that he gives of a diet that leads to vitamin B deficency is a diet of polished rice or food that had been subjected to long periods of pressure cooking.

He also warns that pigeons that have a vitamin B deficiency are more susceptible to pox, diphtheria and ornithosis.

I have to say that all the "PPMV pigeons" that I have rescued, or that have been brought to me by others in th UK, have come from feral flocks that are fed on mixed corn, which has a high percentage of wheat. That is probably because the regular pigeon feeders, who feed corn as it is still the cheapest grain. are more likely to notice any odd behaviour in "their" flock.

I never give pigeons that I suspect of having PPMV antibiotics, as according to research by Vindevogel and Duchatel these can aggravate the lesions, so I will give them brewer's yeast and study the effect that this has on the recovery period.


Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just a quick remark about giving greens...especially for pet pigeons...

Squeaks loves greens! I didn't know that until one day, while making a salad, I dropped a piece of dark green lettuce. Squeaks went after it faster than I could bend down to pick it up. Soooo, I would pinch off a small piece and drop it. Even with more than one small piece, he would nail them faster than I could drop them! 

If you have a pet pij who is out and about, play the "greens game!" Drop some small pieces and see what happens! Fun for human and bird alike! 

Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Yes, our pigeons love their lettuce! But it is the woodies that are the lettuce experts, I could swear that they gobble a leaf in a few seconds, I can understand how devastating a flock could be when feeding on crops.

Cynthia


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