# help! the baby keeps puffing and filling its crop with air



## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

I have a semi abandoned baby pigeon at my place. the parents took care of it for the first week and now they just randomly come and it has been 2 days since they have been back.

the pigeon is a bit less than 2 weeks old now. i have been feeding it baby cat food that has been mushed with water. i hand feed it as it refuses to eat using the balloon method. 

at first it seemed to like the food, but since today when i try to feed it it only eats a little, n then puffs up the crop with air. i massage the crop gently and it burps, but less than a minute later the crop is air filled again! and when it fills with air it refuses to eat. so i have barely been able to feed it 5ml per feeding today.

is something wrong? i m not using old food, i made a new batch today. unfortunately the pet store near my place does not offer any sort of bird food. please let me know what to do. i m very worried.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for your concern for this little one, can you post up a photo, here's how.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

first, it is normal for pigeons to not sit and be with their babies after a week to 13 days esp if there is something interupting them.. they come back to feed a few times a day untill it leaves the nest. the cat food is ok in a pinch but it is meat based and they should have the kaytee hand feeding formula as it has digestive enzymes in it. it sounds like you are getting air in his crop at feeding so try not to do that.. If I were you and since you have taken the baby, get some kaytee exact hand feeding formula and use that with the baby bottle method.. you cut the nipple at the end and let them put their beak in the hole and suck out the formula. also the baby should be warm before feeding and only feed when the crop emties. The kaytee can be bought online or at petsmart or petco.


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

*thanks for the prompt reply!*

yes, the pigeons did get interrupted. they have actually made a nest in our living room behind and unused tv set. unfortunately it is a place which is frequented by a lot of people. 
i m actually a student, living in an apartment with 4 other girls. 
i guess that is the reason why the baby pigeon got abandoned.
i have looked for kaytee extract at 2 different pet store, and i also called another petstore but non has it. i m currently living in malaysia.there is a pet store which carries parrot food, etc but nothing for baby birds. and that store is very far from my house and i do not have a car 
is there anything else that i can make at home and feed it? how about human baby food? like applesauce and oats or baby chicken food?


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

*pic*

picture of the bird, taken three days ago.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The baby is most likely not abandoned. Mom and dad will come back to feed him. The best you can do is feel at the bottom of his throat morning and evening to see if there is food in his crop. The crop feels kinds of lumpy if there is food in it and fills out like a little baloon. Also...the baby will be pooping.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

aubanty said:


> picture of the bird, taken three days ago.


Need a photo of what the bird looks like right now, three days ago is useful in identifying the age (about 12 days old), but not helpful in us trying to observe what you are concerned about. Try and make the shots as clear and well lit as you can. 

You can use children's baby cereal in a pinch, and to this you can add some baby apple sauce, baby peas, baby rice, to make up something that will work, but it mustn't be too thick, must easily flow (never use milk. always water to mix). Here is a link for information on raising up baby pigeons, pay special attention to the link by Msfreebird, on using a baby bottle with the nipple cut and covered with a latex glove, lot's of very postive comments in the past that this methods works very well. If you can also pick up some organic ACV (apple cider vinegar) a few drops can be added to the formula to help with crop issues.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/rescued-feral-help-please-48513.html#post522672

Good luck,

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

*picture of crop/chest*

here is a picture of the baby with the puffed up crop.

I had to hand feed it today morning as I did not have a bottle of syringe. it cries for food when it sees me but after eating about 1 teaspoon amount of food it stopped eating. during eating it pooped but the poop was watery and had bubbles in it  i know it is a bad sign.

it kept puffing up its chest. i dont know if air got in during feeding, but i feed it a bit. then it walks arround while the crop puffs up with air, i massage the crop a little, and the air gets out deflating the crop. and again 20 seconds later(no more feeding, baby just walking or standing), the baby intentionally puffs in air and inflates the crop again. it inflates so much its like a balloon. i again sit and massage it and it deflates. and the process repeats again and again. exactly this has been going on since yesterday morning. 

I went and bought some baby apple and oats today, a baby bottle and a syringe. I thinned out the mixture with water, added two drops of ACV, and put it in the bottles after making a opening in the nipple to fit it's beak in it. again, when i went to it, it started chirping and asking for food, but when i put it's beak inside the bottle it again refused to eat. the poop this time was bright green which means its starving! then why is it refusing to eat? i even tried opening the beak a little and squeezing a tiny drop on food inside the beak using the syringe, but even then it just shakes its head and gets rid of half the food. when i put the beak inside the nipple, even if its just the tip not even the nostril, it just tries to get away. if i hold the head firmly, then it refuses to swallow. just lets the food dribble. 

i dont know what to do!  please help! i dont want the baby to die.

and the parents are a mystery to me. they are always arround in the balcony but refuses to come and feed the baby. sometimes if i feed it during the day, they stare at me. the apartment is empty during the day as we are all in class, and i keep hoping they would come and feed the baby, but for the last 3 days i have been coming back to an empty crop.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Aubanty, this link was included inside the link I posted earlier, it will help you with trying to get this little one to drink on its own. Some take to it right away, but some don't do it may not be an immediate thing for this little guy to start drinking on his own, but keep at it. In the mean time if he does still refuse to drink you can use an eye dropper to get water into him, to do this wrap him in a small towel, kind of like a burrito where he is the filling, with his head poking out on end. Have him in the crease of your lap, head facing forward, and tilted downward. It's important the head be tilted down so any water you give, he does not drink, runs out and not uncontrolled down his throat, where it could go down his windpipe. To the side of his beak you can give him a few drops at a time of water, let him swallow and repeat. There are about 20 drops in 1mL and he will need to get about 15-20mL (300-400 drops) of water a day, you can do 5-6mL at a time 3-4 times a day, and if it's warm, a little more would be fine, so the quicker he learns to drink on his own, the better.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11

With food, is the oats you picked up baby food? What temperature are you feeding at? Can you pick up some corn meal. Can you freely buy medicines at the drug store or do you need a prescription?.

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

well i bought baby apple and oats from heinz. its comes in a little container. i tried the balloon method with a syringe as well as the baby bottle method. but it refuses to eat. i tried the water method. i put a few drops on his beak, but he doesnt drink after 1-2 drop, just shakes its head to get rid of the water. all the food i gave him was slightly above room temperature. depending on the medication i can buy some from the drugstore. do u think the baby bird is sick?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

aubanty said:


> well i bought baby apple and oats from heinz. its comes in a little container. i tried the balloon method with a syringe as well as the baby bottle method. but it refuses to eat. i tried the water method. i put a few drops on his beak, but he doesnt drink after 1-2 drop, just shakes its head to get rid of the water. all the food i gave him was slightly above room temperature. depending on the medication i can buy some from the drugstore. do u think the baby bird is sick?


You need to be a little more clear in your answers. When you say you tried the "water method", do you mean you have tried gently guiding his beak into a small dish of tepid (slightly warm) water and he would not drink (as per the link I posted by pdpbison)?...is the apple sauce in a jar and are the "oats" a dry baby cereal in a box that water is added to (like the link below)? can you be more precise in what you mean by "slightly above room temperature", as to me this means 85-90 degrees and this temperature will be too cool, it needs to be in the 102-104 degree range.

You did not answer my question about meds, as he may be ill, can you get/buy any meds that may be needed without a prescription?

http://grodeli.com/shop/product.php?id_product=2370

It's pretty important we get moving on this. Unlike other kinds forums where if you post, you may not get an answer very soon, because we are dealing many times with ill birds, where time is of the essence, we try and get back to a caregiver without long delays. It's early in the AM here now, I will be checking your thread first thing in the morning, so say 6-7h, in the meantime, try again with the eyedropper, head tilted down, water has to warm!, a few drops at a time to the side of the beak, they almost always will drink with some patience and coaxing.

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

*i got kaytee exact at last!*

i found a shop selling kaytee exact and begged a friend to drive me to the shop! but my god it was so expensive! 
i m sorry about being unclear in my answer, when i said water method, i meant using a dropper to put a few drops of water on the birds beak, waiting for the bird to drink/suck the water arround the beak. but instead of sucking (which it used to) it simply shook its head to get rid of the water. i tried bringing its beak to a small container of slightly warm water but again it refused.
about the temperature, i m not really good at estimating the temperature, i usually make the food/water just a little warm to touch as i m afraid of burning the birds throat. 
i tried to feed the bird kaytee exact today. i made it according to the direction, with 1 part kaytee exact and 6 parts water (i wanted it runny so its easier to swallow). i used the syringe/balloon method.it seemed to enjoy it for about the first 5ml but then stopped wanting to eat. so afterwards (this will seem harsh) i wrapped him in a soft tee shirt with only the head out, n opened the beak, and using a small syringe, put a little bit of food inside its beak and waited for him to swallow. n then repeated the process. it would only swallow a small part of it, the rest it would shake its head and get rid of. i tried to feed him about 20ml, but even after that the crop seemed very empty  i wondered if it even ate any of it.
i think i know why its not eating, while trying to open its beak, i saw a white-ish thing on the top of its mouth. i m guessing it is a canker! this would explain why it has not been wanting to eat. how to i fix this? i asked arround and there is no vet nearby. is there any human medicine i can give it to cure?
i reply every night because that is the only time i m home. i wake up in the morning(arround 11am), feed/try to feed the bird, go to uni and come home at about 6-7pm. after which i try to feed him again. and at night i come here to check my emails. 
please dont be offended by the lateness of my replies, i do very much want the pigeon to get better! i m trying my best here to take care of it.
oh about the medication, no i do not have access to drugs that may require prescription, but i do have a number of left over medicines which requires prescription. i have been reading that flagyl can be used to treat canker in birds. i do have flagyl tablets for humans. the tablet packet says metronidazole 400mg. if u could advise me on the dosage i ll start the baby bird on it right away!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation on your schedule. The growth you saw in the mouth area may indeed be canker, this is part of the reason I have been asking you if you can freely but human meds at a drug store. The Metronidazole is exactly what would be need, do you think you could get a few other meds, would just need small amounts?, as sometimes they can have a few issues at once and to be safe, it is sometimes best to treat few a few different infections at once. 

I want you to crush the 400mg Flagyl pill you have into as very fine a powder as you can, to this powder add 5mL of honey (5mL id 1 teaspoon, but use a cooking teaspoon), stir well, let sit 20 minutes stir well again and you will have a 8% Metronidazole suspension to dose with (80mg/mL). I want you to give this little guy 4 drops of this suspension, this will be about 16mg, then in 12 hours give him 4 more drops, then from the time of the second dose give him 4 drops once every 24 hours.

It may just be best at this point, since you have Kaytee to teach you how to tube feed, this is a method of depositing the formulas directly in the crop using a thin tube attached to a syringe. Do you think you can pick up a 20-30cc syringe and some tubing? Here are a few links below to give you a general idea of what is needed and the procedure. For tubing you can use the shrink tubes pictured or pick up some thin silicone tubing 6-7" long, if you could pick up a catheter (the kind used to help people empty their bladders) a No. 10 French (medical supply stores sell them, some well supplied drug stores as well) a number of us here use these. Also, pick up a 1cc (the middle syringe in the first link below, no needle attached kind to dose the meds with, better than an eyedropper).

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2230231940073664377yNkprq
http://community.webshots.com/album/551797824oCuErL

With the water, you have to gently hold his beak on each side and guide his beak into the water so he realizes just what it is, please keep trying this, but you will need to keep at the eye drop method if he still does not drink on his own, as we can not let him become dehydrated or it will make things much harder.

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

thank u so much for the prompt reply! i ll get away at making the medicine. i have been looking for a thin pipe as i wanted to crop feed him the kaytee (as he is fighting so much). but oddly enough the drugstores do not carry it. but i ll see if i can maybe buy it from the clinic after explaining my situation. 
please let me know which other medicines i should give him at the moment, i ll try my best to get hold of them. hopefully they ll already be in my arsenal of medications. is feeding him at 11am and then at 6-6:30pm enough? or should i feed him again at about 9pm? 
i ll keep trying the water method (bringing his beak to the water bowl). i do have a small shallow plate/bowl kind of thing which i have been using to get him to the water. 
Again, thank u so much


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

With the water bowl, you have to dip his beak right into the water and hold it a second there, not just bring his beak to the water. If this little guy were in my care, along with the Metronidazole, I would also start him on a broad spectrum antibiotic which would be a drug of choice in very young bird, that would be; first, Trimethoprim/Sulfa (aka Bactrim, Septra, Cotrimoxazole) or second choice, Clavamox (aka Augmentin, Synulox, Amoxicillin/Clavulanic Acid) and because of the bubbles you mentioned in his droppings a contact anti-fungal called Nystatin (does not get absorbed by the body) that is a liquid suspension given orally, as bubbles in the droppings is sometimes indicative of a yeast issue. You will need just a few pills and about 10mL of the Nystatin.

The shrink wrap tubes you see in the link were purchased, I believe, from a home improvement store. Also, electronic/electric supply stores carry the same thing to protect electrical wires, so this may be an alternative for you.

Since you are not getting much into him, I would feed him as often as you can, at this age, when healthy, they can take a great deal of formula over day, as you will see once we get you tube feeding, 75-100mL, but if you can get 20-30mL of food broken into 3-4 feeding times over the day, plus some water, it will be enough to maintain him for the moment. Be very careful with the feeding, and water, as they can easily aspirate either and this can cause great harm to them, that's why it's best to use a feeding tube, much safer and you will not have to worry about giving any water (it's in the Kaytee).

Also, see if you can borrow a better quality camera and get a few shots up of the growth in his mouth, the air pocket and his fresh droppings, no matter what they look like.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

hello! i have been giving the baby the medicine. it absolutely hates it though. i open the beak and put a drop directly in the mouth. it kind of pushes it till it bubbles in the beak and then shakes its head to get rid of it. i dont know if it is even receiving any medicine this way. i do still sit and patiently give it 4 drops. 
i went to both a hardware, pet and household shop today. non carried any shrink wrap tubes, or any thin enough tube for that matter.i bought the thinnest tube, and its still 0.6cm in diameter. do u think i should try to feed the baby with this? it seems realy big though.
and the parents came to help me today! usually they just sit and stare, but today morning, when i was trying to feed it 1 of the parents came inside the room (the room has an attached balcony). so i let the baby go, and slowly backed out of the room. since then i see it popping in from time to try and feed it. unfortunately i dont think the baby has been eating much from the parents either. there are small seeds all over the floor. 
i m worried. i dont know what do to. i cant seem to find a tube anywhere! and the baby needs food so badly. its sooo thin now, with all the bones sticking out


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Please get some defrosted peas and or corn (ensure that's peas and corn are about hand temperature - you should be able to pop these inside it's beak. 

Please do not tube fed if you are not comfortable doing so. That bird looks like it could manage defrosted peas and corn and if it means you can get something into it, then this may be the difference between life and death. You should be able to feed about 20 in one sitting. Feed until the crop (sac under it's neck) is expanded, not squishy. 

You mentioned inyour last post about the medication bubbling - this is a bad, not a good thing possibly - the baby pigeons trachea is located at the front of the mouth, so it is probable it could be getting in there. 

Take this baby inside, and please please have it in a box with a hot water bottle double wrapped with towels, and witha space so the pigeon can move away from the heat. its parents aren't going to help by the sounds of it so it's up to you. 

So do all of the above in the following order. 
- bird inside, in nice warm box
- once bird is warm (check if it is cold) then attempt to give enourage birdie to drink rehydration formula (make up as per front page of pigeons.biz emergency care guide) if bird drinks, then wait one hour and give defrosted peas
- medications - just put in side of mouth - slowly- giving the bird time to swallow
Unless you have someone to show you how to crop feed I think it is dangerous
Unless u feel really confident, study a picture of a birds respiratory/digestive system and have the correct equipment on hand. 



-


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I will check back online in one hour in case you need further assistance


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I will check back online in one hour in case you need further assistance. Remember defrosted peas will provide the baby with moisture, and are easy to feed. Wrap baby gent in a towel if needed to assist with feeding


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

.6 of a cm is too large for a baby pigeon


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

hi! found a feeding tube  i went to a hospital nearby, and there was a kind nurse. so i explained my situation, and asked her to let me buy some feeding tube. and she was so sweet. she took out a few feeding tubes and asked me which size i preferred. so i picked a thin 1. i also bought a 60ml syringe.
but i made a mistake  
i sat with the bird, burritoed it in a soft tee with the head and neck sticking out. and then using the method in the pictures in the link you sent me (thank u) i put the tube down the birds throat and fed it 30ml of KT. i fed it a more diluted version though (1 part KT 6 parts water). here the mistake now, when i pulled out the tube. there was a TINY drop of blood on it. more like a tiny string of blood. about 2mm in length and as thin as stringe. i think i may have scratched the birds mouth/tummy/or something along the way while feeding it  
what now? it was very little, but i m so worried! will this harm the bird greatly? is there any medicine to give it? also i looked at the medicine u asked me to get. i have some augumentin already. should i give it to the bird along with flagyl?
on the bright side, the baby after 3 whole days, has a full crop atlast! hopefully the future feedings will go smoothly and the baby will survive.


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

oh, i dont think it can swallow peas. it can barely swallow liquid food, peas would be pushing it. the parents tried to feed it tiny tiny seeds, even that it wouldnt it. i had not seen your messages (kamz) untill i came home and had already tube fed the bird. i hope i m not caused much harm


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Well done. You can pretty much disregard mOst of the above posts of mine. U had me worried with your descriptions of it's tiny body with prominent bones! 

Now you are confident about feeding baby, give meds the same way too when needed. 

Do bring the baby inside if you think it is weak at all (might appear sleepy or puffed up all the time) and provide warmth as I suggested above.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Noo I must apologize aubanty. It sounds like with the e cellent resources provided to you by Karen and your hard work you have pulled through for this little one. 

Now that you are comfortable crop feeding, there would be no point pea feeding, the reason I was suggesting that, was that you didn't have seem to have the appropriate resources to do so. Crop feeding would be better for the reasons Karyn suggested.


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

no no! no need to apologize! i was completely lost about what to do. and i was quite terrified about crop feeding it! but thankfully it went quite smoothly. the baby bird currently lives in the bottom shelf of a small tv shelf.its not in my room but in the living area (my room has air con) . i lined it with newspaper which i change every 2 days. i did offer it heat (i put rice in a sock and heated it up) but it did not like it. 
but what about the tiny string of blood on the tube when i brought it up? will that cause much harm?


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

If it was only 2 mm, that should be fine. You will just want to avoid hitting the white patch where the supposed canker is when crop feeding. canker nodules can bleed a lot if bumped. 

The really important thing is to monitor the baby now - get comfortable gently feeling his crop, and remember how it feels so you can compare in 3 hours and see if it has gone down. You only want to feed when it is almost empty. Let people on here know if the crop is slow to empty. 

Again, well done. It's a scary thing crop feeding for the first time.


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

oh! another question. i am supposed to give the baby bird medicine tomorrow, it is 4 drops of the honey/flagyl mixture. should i mix it with the food and tube feed it? because it refuses to swallow the medicine. or is it necessary for the medicine to be in contact with the birds mouth?


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

it should be fine to tube feed the medication. Sometimes flagyl is painted on, but I believe only on difficult external lesions of the head. 

It is much safer for you to tube feeds the birds meds if it won't swallow. otherwise it will probably go into it's windpipe. That's why I was worried when you were talkig about bubbling in the birds mouth!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

aubanty said:


> oh! another question. i am supposed to give the baby bird medicine tomorrow, it is 4 drops of the honey/flagyl mixture. should i mix it with the food and tube feed it? because it refuses to swallow the medicine. or is it necessary for the medicine to be in contact with the birds mouth?


Well, I see you have had an exciting time during our night. Well done, making such an effort, being persistent, and finding what was needed to tube feed this little one. Once you got what you needed to tube feed, I was going to give you more detailed instructions on how to do it, but it seems you jumped in the deep end and got it done. One thing you can do is place one single drop of olive oil on the tube and use your thumb and index finger to coat evenly coat the tube with this drop of oil, it will help it slide down easier. Also, as you are sliding the tube down, you can give the syringe itself the littlest bit of a twist, back and forth, to ease insertion, clean and flush tube well, of course, after each use.

A few things, for now I would like to see you feed no more than 15cc of food at any one time, to make sure things are moving well through this little one. This is how I want you to make up the Kaytee, I want you to heat some water to very hot, add the Kaytee following instructions on the package, stir it in well cover and let sit 15 minutes, I then want you to slowly add water, a little at a time, until the Kaytee is about the thickness of a melted milkshake (then test of course for correct temperature, 102-104 degrees, before feeding). Kaytee can thicken up in their crops a bit, but if mixed this way, we can help prevent this, by letting it thicken up first and then fine tuning it before feeding.

I also want you to continue with the 4 drops of Metronidazole, if you picked up a 1cc syringe, this will be 0.20cc (the second line on a 1cc syringe). Now that you can use the tube, I want you to mix the 4 drops of Metronidazole with 5mL of warm water and tube this directly to the crop and also give 1 drop orally for this little guy to swallow to make direct contact with the mouth and throat tissue. When you are crop medicating, when loading the syringe with the warm water/Metronidazole, I want to first pull the plunger up about 1/4" before drawing up the liquid, this will put an air gap between the medicine and when giving, this bit of air will make sure all of the medicine is completely emptied from the syringe and the tube itself. If you have a clear silicone tune you will be able to watch all the liquid being delivered and this air pushing all the liquid through (but stop when all the liquid is in, try and not push in the bit of air).

Give the medicine away from the food, so say you are scheduled to feed at 9am, either give the medicine an hour earlier at 8am or 1 hour before the next feeding time, this is so the medicine can not only be taken up by the body unhampered by food, but so the medicine makes direct contact with any trichomonads (the protozoa that causes canker), at a more concentrated level (always stir the Metronidazole suspension very well before each use and keep in the refrigerator between use).

Susie (Kamz) thanks for helping out. One of the things I worry about with canker is just how much is unseen, so I myself, am quite reluctant to recommend the feeding of peas/corn to a squab/bird that seems to have a canker issue, as I always fear that these large food items are just going to block up what may already be a compromised GI. Always tough to know the best course of action in these situations .

Aubanty, any luck with the other meds?

Good job,

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

hello! thanks for the detailed instruction  
i do have some augmentin, but i m not sure whether it has expired. it can be upto 4 years old. i ll go to the pharmacy tomorrow and see if i can buy any of the medicine, the hospital i went to today does not allow purchase of medicine without seeing a doctor. 
i last fed the bird at 7:30pm. i wanted to give it a feeding again at about 1am because i wake up late and i didnt want the bird to be unfed for over 12 hours. but even at 1am, the crop had a little bit of food left and also i felt a few seeds in there. i guess the parent birds did manage to feed it a little. generally when the baby bird is hungry and it sees me it starts chirping, but tonight it didnt chirp, which i guess means its not hungry. but food staying for so long makes me think it may have a slow crop. 
so i ll feed it 15ml per feeding? is that a bit less? how many times a day should i feed it in that case? numerous feedings is not a problem for the next 2 days as tomorrow i ll be home and day after i only have a few evening classes.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I don't like how you are able to feel some old food in the crop, the seeds, and that he did not peep when he saw you. I want you to hold off a bit on feeding him any Kaytee for the moment and I would like to get the Augmentin you have mixed up and dose him with this, but I need to know the strength of the Augmentin to give you instructions on how to mix and dose it.

Also, going forward, I want you to feed him no more than 10mL at a time until things are moving well through him. Just for your information, with a healthy squab (baby pigeon) this age we would be feeding 25-35mL at each feeding, so we do have some issues to deal with to get this guy back on the right track.

Can you post up a photo of any of his fresh droppings he is doing?

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

oh, i know there was food left in the crop because i touched it with my finger and pressed gently. i could feel some seeds in it and it did not feel 100% empty. 
the augmentin i have is 625mg. again, i m concerned whether this has expired or not, as it might be upto 4 years old. unfortunately its only 3 pills so the part of the packet with the expiry date is not here. will it be toxic to the bird if expired?
the parents r trying to feed it again today, and again there is a lot of leftover seeds on the floor. 
i ll continue feeding it the flagyl mixture, and 10ml of food per feeding.


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

okay, i just went to feed it. but the parents had managed to feed it! the crop was all full (i touched and felt it). i ll wait for 2 hours and give it the medicine. can i leave the kaytee mixture in the fridge?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

aubanty said:


> oh, i know there was food left in the crop because i touched it with my finger and pressed gently. i could feel some seeds in it and it did not feel 100% empty.
> the augmentin i have is 625mg. again, i m concerned whether this has expired or not, as it might be upto 4 years old. unfortunately its only 3 pills so the part of the packet with the expiry date is not here. will it be toxic to the bird if expired?
> the parents r trying to feed it again today, and again there is a lot of leftover seeds on the floor.
> i ll continue feeding it the flagyl mixture, and 10ml of food per feeding.


The Augmentin will be fine, it will not be toxic to this little one. You will crush/grind one of the pills up into as fine a powder as you can, to this you will add 10mL of honey (2 cooking teaspoons), stir well, let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 6.25% Augmentin suspension to dose with (62.5mg/mL). If you have the 1cc syringe I want you to give this little one 0.30cc (6 drops, 18.75mg) twice a day, q12h, and it can be given at the same time as the Metronidazole and you will add it to 5mL of warm water/ACV and tube.

Please do not allow the parents to feed this little one anymore for two reasons, the first is if it is canker this baby has, it would have come from the parents and we can not clear an infection if we allow this little one to be re-infected on an ongoing basis from the source, and two, since the crop is not emptying well the seeds the parents are feeding it are not being processed well causing a slow crop.

Can you give a little more information on the parents, and how things are set up and what happened to its sibling, as pigeons almost always lay two eggs.

Don't forget photos of droppings.

Edit: Just saw your post, not much to be done except see how things go with the crop, but do get the meds in a little later.

Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

I want to load picture from my phone to the laptop, but something is wrong with the bluetooth. after i saw your post yesterday about not letting the parents feed the baby anymore, i closed the balcony window so as to keep the parent out. unfortunately one of my housemates must have opened it, because in the evening when i went to check on the baby, it was stuffed with seed! like completely stuffed! i didnt dare put even another 5ml of medicine in it.

i have moved the baby to my room now. it is in a shoe box lined with newspaper and tissue paper. and now its, 2:40 pm here and there are still quite a bit of seeds left in it's crop. i will wait for the crop to completely empty before feeding it again. i already have it a solution of both flagyl and augmentin mixed with 5ml of water. i will give it another dose after 24 hours? 

i ll try to figure out the bluetooth problem and send pics asap. the bird generally seems pretty okay. it fussed a little trying to get out of the box when i first brought it in, but now it seems comfortable, its sleeping. the poop, is solid, dark green-ish, with some sort of white chalky stuff on top. 

there were 2 parents in the begining. 1 grey and 1 black. after abandoning the baby only the grey 1 returned. i wondered what happened to the black 1. i went to the balcony today, and behind the a/c uni the black 1 lay dead. i guess it was the black 1 that had canker then? so the grey 1 should be fine?
also there was never 2 eggs. only 1. if there was another egg i never saw it. i saw the 2 broken halvs of this babys eggshell but thats all. 

i do feel bad about keeping it away from the parents. the parent bird even came today and was looking for the baby. i m afraid if it doesnt find the baby for a day or 2 it will stop returning. and i do not want the baby to be parentless.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, it's helpful to now know the fate of the second parent and that only one egg was hatched. Your instincts are right and it would be best for the parent to finish raising this little guy, so it can teach it how to be what it is, a feral pigeon. With one parent dead, IMO, it still has to be assumed the remaining parent is infected as well, as part of a pigeon's courtship and mating, is very intimate contact in the mouth area where a canker infection can easily be passed to one another.

The instructions I gave you (I won't re-type them here, but go back and check) was for twice a day dosing for each medicine, the Metronidazole and Augmentin, so you will be giving the meds to the baby every 12 hours, not every 24 hours.

I think we should go ahead and try and treat the remaining parent with the Metronidazole you have, this has been done before in similar circumstances with success. I want you to take one of the 400mg Metronidazole pill you have cut it in 4 even pieces (100mg each) then cut each of these pieces in two (50mg each). I want you to get some soft, fresh bread, take a small piece (1/2"x1/2") place one of the 50mg pieces of Metronidazole into the center and roll it into a ball and feed it to the parent, one a day (50mg a day). You can have a few "blank" extra balls/small pieces of bread so it gets use to you throwing them for him to feed. If you can get 4-5 pieces (one a day) of this into the parent over the next 4-5 days, this should clear the parent of a possible canker infection
.
If the baby's crop is emptying OK with all that the parent has feed so far (as from you description the droppings do not sound too bad), then continue to give the parent full access to the baby so it does not abandon it and will go on to fully raise it. Timing in this is kind of important so after feeding the parent a "Metronidazole medicine ball" try and keep it away from the baby for a few hours so the medicine fully enters its system and it does not eat the ball and then just feed it to the baby. I kept the dose for the parent at 50mg in case he does feed some to the baby it will not be a problem (Metronidazole is a very forgiving medicine with a wide range of dosing in pigeons). 

It's kind of a juggling act you will have to be doing, but to give this guy a chance at being raised in the wild, it may be our best option.

Good luck,


Karyn


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

*pics!*

i have uploaded 3 picture, 1 of the baby in its temporary nest in my room(taken today). 1 of its poop today morning. and 1 of the living area. the tv in the picture, against the left wall is on a small cabinet. the baby generally lives either in the bottom shelf or behind the cabinet depending on its mood. 
i ll start working on the parent bird tomorrow. hopefully it will eat up the 'medicine balls' easily.

forgive the bad quality of the camera. i don't own a proper camera, these are all taken by cell phone. also given i live in a ahem, low rent apartment the furnishing is quite minimal. the living area is generally used only for drying clothes.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Droppings don't look too bad, no need to apologize for anything. It would be great if you could borrow a camera and get up a clear shot of the bare patch on the side of the baby's face/neck area. Do make sure the parent maintains contact/interaction with access to feed it and check that it is indeed being feed. Please do your best to get the meds into the parent as soon as you can, baby will need to be on meds 7-10 days, could even be up to 14 days.

Karyn


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## tough nut (Aug 12, 2011)

wonder what happened? I guess it must happen alot, people come frantically wishing to know what to do, then disappear. I hope Aubanty comes back to tell us the outcome, good or bad.
Aubanty and Dobato tried really hard. Well done to both of you


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## aubanty (Aug 3, 2011)

hi! sorry for going missing for so long, the bird was perfectly fine. now its almost grown, looks like a smaller version of a full grown pigeon. but i am a little worried, as it still does not eat on its own. 
for the last 5 days the parents have not been feeding it much. previously the parents would feed it till the crop would be completely full! now its barely half filled. i feed it kaytee at night as i don't want it to go hungry. i have to say, nowadays it does not like eating kaytee. i now tube feed it the kaytee again. i 
i bought some frozen peas. i was thinking maybe i should feed it some peas as well as the kaytee? also i did leave a little bowl of water, and i have tried wetting it's beak and then dipping the beak in the water to no avail. it simple fights me when i try to push the head towards the bowl. and even when the beak touches the water it does not drink. 
also is there any grain i can give it? rice? 
it seems healthy and all, but the diet is worrying me. also after how long will it start going out and flying?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Glad to hear he made it. Can you post a clear photo of him and his fresh droppings. You need to get some bird see d and work with him on weaning. You can get a Canary/Budgie mix or a Cockatiel mix as he has larger seeds. If you get the Cockatiel mix, depending who made it, I want you to remove the sunflower seeds and any other larger food it's, so it's just really large and small seeds. As they get old, as you now know they take the Kaytee with less enthusiasm, as they know they are supposed to be weaning. Here is some instructions on weaning:

These links describe how to get them nuzzling and eating seeds, also you will spread some seeds around for him, and then you can make like you are hunting and pecking with him by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds together. Also, start to keep a dish of seeds in his cage/space (no whole sunflower seeds, large items as mentioned along with a small water dish,) and also spread some seeds out in the cage for him to peck at there, you can also add some thawed peas to peck at as well. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with them. Once they are eating seeds, continue to supplement with formula, as best you can until he is eating on his own well.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2 feeding seeds


Good luck with him,

Karyn


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