# To Kill Or Not To Kill



## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,515713,00.html


TO KILL OR NOT TO KILL
Cities Tackle Surge in Global Pigeon Population

By David Crossland

Gray and inconspicuous they may be, but pigeons are highly adaptable and their numbers are surging around the world, heightening the risk of disease. Cities have resorted to imaginative techniques to kill the birds over the years, but the only effective curb is to stop feeding them, says a Swiss scientist.

Venice has the highest pigeon density at three pigeons per citizen.
The pigeon is a heavenly symbol of peace, love and purity but it also produces 12 kilos of excrement a year and is widely decried as a flying rat that soils facades and spreads disease in cities all over the world.

Scientists, city officials and animal welfare activists met in the western German city of Essen on Tuesday for Germany's first Town Pigeon Conference to discuss how to deal with the growing pigeon population which is expected to rise by around 50 million to up to 400 million worldwide in the next 10 years as a result of growing urbanization.

The pigeon derives from the rock dove and was one of the first animals to be domesticated, some 10,000 years ago, in the Middle East. There are around 300 varieties of the bird. It was initially bred to be eaten, and its excrement, guano, was a prized fertilizer.

The inconspicuous gray bird with a fatty neck has adapted better to life in urban public areas than any other animal, and its presence is truly global.

There are around one million of them in New York, and Venice has the highest pigeon density with an estimated three birds per human inhabitant. In most big European towns, there is around one pigeon for every 20 citizens.


Throughout history, pigeons have found plentiful food close to where humans live, either by being fed directly or eating spilt horse feed, or by picking up rubbish that had gathered in the cracks of the cobblestones that were commonplace in medieval European towns, said Haag-Wackernagel.

From Poisoning to "Electric Chairs"

Their population exploded in the 20th century as food became ever cheaper in relation to personal income. The bird is supremely adaptable, finding breeding places in all kinds of unnatural locations ranging from air conditioning vents to warm satellite dishes. Their diet, originally grain-based, has also evolved and town pigeons now eat virtually everything from discarded beef burgers to human vomit.

Major cities have been trying to reduce their pigeon populations since the early 20th century and have resorted to a colourful variety of methods including straight poisoning, shooting, firing nets over flocks with rockets, blasting them with salt pellets and even by means of an "electric chair:" placing food on a high-voltage metal platform to fry the birds alive.

Contraception pills have also been attempted, but they can poison other animals. "Scaring" is another method - London has resorted to Harris hawks and loud megaphones to drive pigeons away from Trafalgar Square. But that technique just moves them to other parts of the city. London has also started fining people for feeding pigeons in the square.

"Killing makes no sense at all," says Haag-Wackernagel. "The birds have an enormous reproduction capacity and they'll just come back. There is a linear relationship between the bird population and the amount of food available." A pair of pigeons can produce up to 12 fledglings per year.

"The best way to reduce the population is not to feed them. People say it's cruel to deprive them of food but in the wild the sudden absence of food is a completely natural occurrence and animals adapt to it."

Less Food, Fewer Pigeons

Haag-Wackernagel developed a scheme for the city of Basel in the 1980s which resulted in a decline in the pigeon population by two thirds in four years. "We launched a campaign to persuade people not to feed the birds. We never put a ban on feeding because that always creates martyrs. We think you have to convince people."

The scheme included setting up nine pigeon lofts in the attics of churches and schools where breeding boxes were installed. "We didn't feed them there and we took some of their eggs away," said Haag-Wackernagel. Depriving pigeons of food also slows down their reproduction because it forces them to devote more time looking for food rather than breed, he said.

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The western German town of Moers has come up with a less rigorous scheme. For the past three years it has been recruiting unemployed people as "Pigeon Wardens" to construct and clean out public pigeon coops and feed the animals.

Pigeons still enjoy a considerably better reputation than rats, which suffered a lasting PR setback by spreading the Black Death.

But the birds can and do spread diseases, allergies and parasites to humans. Haag-Wackernagel says many everyday illnesses including allergies can be attributed to human proximity to the birds which carry salmonella, lung illnesses, fleas, ticks and a host of other ailments -- something to think about when surrounded by flapping pigeons in town squares or outdoor cafes.

Pregnant women, children, the elderly and people infected with HIV are particularly at risk from contact with pigeons, said Haag-Wackernagel.

Reducing pigeon populations also gives the birds a better quality of life -- less stress and less cramped living conditions, says Haag-Wackernagel. But die-hard pigeon-fanciers remain unconvinced. "One man in Basel kept on feeding pigeons between 12 and 15 tons of pigeon food per year until he died aged 89."


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> Their diet, originally grain-based, has also evolved and town pigeons now eat virtually everything from discarded beef burgers to human vomit.


Sounds like something that would be pretty handy to have around New York City.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

I've give you 'soils facades' but why is it this 'spreads disease' myth gets tossed in everywhere pigeons are mentioned? Are people falling over dead somewhere from pigeon-spread diseases? What a crock...


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That should NOT EVEN be the question.



TO KILL OR NOT TO KILL
Cities Tackle Surge in Global Pigeon Population

By David Crossland

Gray and inconspicuous they may be, but pigeons are highly adaptable and their numbers are surging around the world, heightening the risk of disease. Cities have resorted to imaginative techniques to kill the birds over the years, but the only effective curb is to stop feeding them, says a Swiss scientist.

Venice has the highest pigeon density at three pigeons per citizen.
The pigeon is a heavenly symbol of peace, love and purity but it also produces 12 kilos of excrement a year and is widely decried as a flying rat that soils facades and spreads disease in cities all over the world.

Scientists, city officials and animal welfare activists met in the western German city of Essen on Tuesday for Germany's first Town Pigeon Conference to discuss how to deal with the growing pigeon population which is expected to rise by around 50 million to up to 400 million worldwide in the next 10 years as a result of growing urbanization.

The pigeon derives from the rock dove and was one of the first animals to be domesticated, some 10,000 years ago, in the Middle East. There are around 300 varieties of the bird. It was initially bred to be eaten, and its excrement, guano, was a prized fertilizer.

The inconspicuous gray bird with a fatty neck has adapted better to life in urban public areas than any other animal, and its presence is truly global.
*What fatty neck, the fact that the pigeon can blow up its neck to coo and has a shiny coat on the neck doesn't make it "fatty".*

There are around one million of them in New York, and Venice has the highest pigeon density with an estimated three birds per human inhabitant. In most big European towns, there is around one pigeon for every 20 citizens.
*Pigeons and their increasing population are a product of their environment, and the people who live in these environments are responsible for their situation.*

Throughout history, pigeons have found plentiful food close to where humans live, either by being fed directly or eating spilt horse feed, or by picking up rubbish that had gathered in the cracks of the cobblestones that were commonplace in medieval European towns, said Haag-Wackernagel.

From Poisoning to "Electric Chairs"

Their population exploded in the 20th century as food became ever cheaper in relation to personal income. The bird is supremely adaptable, finding breeding places in all kinds of unnatural locations ranging from air conditioning vents to warm satellite dishes. Their diet, originally grain-based, has also evolved and town pigeons now eat virtually everything from discarded beef burgers to human vomit.

Major cities have been trying to reduce their pigeon populations since the early 20th century and have resorted to a colourful variety of methods including straight poisoning, shooting, firing nets over flocks with rockets, blasting them with salt pellets and even by means of an "electric chair:" placing food on a high-voltage metal platform to fry the birds alive.

Contraception pills have also been attempted, but they can poison other animals. "Scaring" is another method - London has resorted to Harris hawks and loud megaphones to drive pigeons away from Trafalgar Square. But that technique just moves them to other parts of the city. London has also started fining people for feeding pigeons in the square.

"Killing makes no sense at all," says Haag-Wackernagel. "The birds have an enormous reproduction capacity and they'll just come back. There is a linear relationship between the bird population and the amount of food available." A pair of pigeons can produce up to 12 fledglings per year.
*Killing is inhumane and cruel, the population has only increased due to what humans have left behind and they have cleaned up on city streets and elsewhere.*

"The best way to reduce the population is not to feed them. People say it's cruel to deprive them of food but in the wild the sudden absence of food is a completely natural occurrence and animals adapt to it."

Less Food, Fewer Pigeons

*Denying them food is NOT the answer, reducing it is, they will adapt and breed less.*

Haag-Wackernagel developed a scheme for the city of Basel in the 1980s which resulted in a decline in the pigeon population by two thirds in four years. "We launched a campaign to persuade people not to feed the birds. We never put a ban on feeding because that always creates martyrs. We think you have to convince people."

The scheme included setting up nine pigeon lofts in the attics of churches and schools where breeding boxes were installed. "We didn't feed them there and we took some of their eggs away," said Haag-Wackernagel. Depriving pigeons of food also slows down their reproduction because it forces them to devote more time looking for food rather than breed, he said.

*It doesn't necessarily slow down their reproduction due to spending time looking for food, it denies them the extra food to fuel reproduction.*

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The western German town of Moers has come up with a less rigorous scheme. For the past three years it has been recruiting unemployed people as "Pigeon Wardens" to construct and clean out public pigeon coops and feed the animals.

Pigeons still enjoy a considerably better reputation than rats, which suffered a lasting PR setback by spreading the Black Death.

But the birds can and do spread diseases, allergies and parasites to humans. Haag-Wackernagel says many everyday illnesses including allergies can be attributed to human proximity to the birds which carry salmonella, lung illnesses, fleas, ticks and a host of other ailments -- something to think about when surrounded by flapping pigeons in town squares or outdoor cafes.
*This statement just creates that same mentality of them being carriers of a host of diseases which is a myth. You can't get most of the diseases that pigeons MIGHT carry anyway, and lung illnesses cannot be gotten by simply being around pigeons outdoors in the open.*


Pregnant women, children, the elderly and people infected with HIV are particularly at risk from contact with pigeons, said Haag-Wackernagel.

*The above groups of people are particularly at risk to a whole host of diseases and toxins out in the big world, alot more worry there. *

Reducing pigeon populations also gives the birds a better quality of life -- less stress and less cramped living conditions, says Haag-Wackernagel. But die-hard pigeon-fanciers remain unconvinced. "One man in Basel kept on feeding pigeons between 12 and 15 tons of pigeon food per year until he died aged 89."[/QUOTE]

*....and there is your contradiction, this man was around pigeons and lived a long life, he might have died alot sooner if it wasn't for pigeons, and the pleasure they brought to his life. Yes, he might have been overfeeding them, but they didn;t shorten his life.*


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,515713,00.html
> 
> 
> TO KILL OR NOT TO KILL
> ...


 You're right,,,
It shouldn't be "To kill or Not to Kill",,
It should be,,, How can we save lives with the excess pigeons in out backyard"
Whats wrong with using whats available to feed the hungry mouths at the local mission in downtown NewYork??
Or in any part of the world,, lets get real here,, People are starving in many parts of this country,, and in other 3rd world countries...
Animal rights activist never seem to have or take this into consideration...or,,you flat out don't care about others that are starving and in need of the basic food stuffs.
I and a few others here in the states are doing our best to help those specifically in Mayanar,,, but we are having a difficult time helping them find local birds to get them set-up with breeding there own for food...
What better way to help than to figure out away to export what we have in excess to other countries in need..
Gary H.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

Gary,
your post is completely uncalled for. This is a site that is dedicated to saving the lives of these birds. You are in the wrong place if you buy into this cruelty and ignorance brought on by articles such as these. You don't wipe out cruelty by being cruel. Go to this site and try to watch the video there and then you will know what kind of fate awaits these birds if your ideas ever pan out. This planet is disappearing under our feet and if you want to try and save it, then figure out a way to reduce the human population that is doing it. You don't accelerate the demise of yet another species and call it a solution.

www.meat.org


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonperson said:


> Gary,
> your post is completely uncalled for. This is a site that is dedicated to saving the lives of these birds. You are in the wrong place if you buy into this cruelty and ignorance brought on by articles such as these. You don't wipe out cruelty by being cruel. Go to this site and try to watch the video there and then you will know what kind of fate awaits these birds if your ideas ever pan out. This planet is disappearing under our feet and if you want to try and save it, then figure out a way to reduce the human population that is doing it. You don't accelerate the deaths of animals and call it a solution.
> 
> www.meat.org


AGREED!!!!!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> > Originally Posted by pigeonperson View Post
> > Gary,
> > your post is completely uncalled for. This is a site that is dedicated to saving the lives of these birds. You are in the wrong place if you buy into this cruelty and ignorance brought on by articles such as these. You don't wipe out cruelty by being cruel. Go to this site and try to watch the video there and then you will know what kind of fate awaits these birds if your ideas ever pan out. This planet is disappearing under our feet and if you want to try and save it, then figure out a way to reduce the human population that is doing it. You don't accelerate the deaths of animals and call it a solution.
> >
> ...


AMEN!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Caution ..*

The video at this link www.meat.org will be quite disturbing to many members .. view at your own risk.

Terry


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

pigeonperson said:


> Gary,
> your post is completely uncalled for. This is a site that is dedicated to saving the lives of these birds. You are in the wrong place if you buy into this cruelty and ignorance brought on by articles such as these. You don't wipe out cruelty by being cruel. Go to this site and try to watch the video there and then you will know what kind of fate awaits these birds if your ideas ever pan out. This planet is disappearing under our feet and if you want to try and save it, then figure out a way to reduce the human population that is doing it. You don't accelerate the demise of yet another species and call it a solution.
> 
> www.meat.org


 I'm more than aware of what this forum stands for,, I have no problem with it whatsoever.. But,, I choose to not stick my head in the sand and ignore what the alternatives can be.. I didn't start this article,, I just gave an alternative to what is the obvious,, an over population of pigeons that can be used for the good of mankind..
Unless of course,, you are more interested in saving the life of an animal over the life of a human being...
Take your stand,,, you may be in the food line someday..
Gary H.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Royaltypigeon said:


> I'm more than aware of what this forum stands for,, I have no problem with it whatsoever.. But,, I choose to not stick my head in the sand and ignore what the alternatives can be.. I didn't start this article,, I just gave an alternative to what is the obvious,, an over population of pigeons that can be used for the good of mankind..
> Unless of course,, you are more interested in saving the life of an animal over the life of a human being...
> Take your stand,,, you may be in the food line someday..
> Gary H.



WHY in the world do you INSIST on causing controversy????? You KNOW how your post would be taken by the members here. Do you think we don't KNOW that there are hungry people in the world? Do you think we don't CARE?? Catching all the "extra" pigeons and shipping them somewhere so people can kill them and eat them is NOT going to solve the world's hunger problem.........why can't you just THINK about what you are about to post and decide NOT to post it? Or maybe you DO think about it and are bored and need something to do so you decide to get "those pigeon folks" riled up.! I think you do this on purpose and so far, you've been allowed to do so........


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

It's precisely meat eating that has contributed in large part to world hunger and starvation as grain that would have gone to humans went to feed animals bred to feed the wealthier human populations of the world.

What would probably help the most would be to export education regarding 
birth control to areas of overpopulation in addition to products that aid in the 
same. And for the populations of the world who are wealthy enough to stand by and watch others starve while the grain that could save them is fed to an animal that they would like to fatten for slaughter.....how do you teach compassion and restraint? 

I can't say that I don't eat meat, but I recognize this as being part of the problem. I don't remember the exact wording of the bumper sticker, but something to this effect; 'Live simply so that others can simply live'.

fp


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> WHY in the world do you INSIST on causing controversy????? You KNOW how your post would be taken by the members here. Do you think we don't KNOW that there are hungry people in the world? Do you think we don't CARE?? Catching all the "extra" pigeons and shipping them somewhere so people can kill them and eat them is NOT going to solve the world's hunger problem.........why can't you just THINK about what you are about to post and decide NOT to post it? Or maybe you DO think about it and are bored and need something to do so you decide to get "those pigeon folks" riled up.! I think you do this on purpose and so far, you've been allowed to do so........


 No Renee,, I don't,, 
I have very strong feelings for my birds,, and first and foremost for those who are hungry,,,
I don't bring contraversy,, but I am slammed because of differing opinions,,,but,, everyone else here is allowed to have an opinion,, I am also allowed..
This particular post wasn't for just anyone,, those who choose to read,, can,, those who don't want to see whats happening in the real world can ignore it and go on...
I have yet to see one post on here about what can be done for the betterment of the pigeon,,,, NOT ONE,,,,,,,,,,,
If you don't like my opinion,, I can deal with that and we can have a civilixed conversation,,,
But so far,, there isn't any civilized conversation with one person on here,, just slamming,,, you want to slam?,, you have a real battle on your hands and I will be the one with a shotgun in hand....first,, to save my family,, next to save my pigeons,,, next,, to save those who don't have what I have,, and that is food on the table...
Do your research,, It was stated above,, pigeons were first bred for what? 
Now get off my case and think for an hour or two...
I love this forum,, I believe I was here long before alot of you all were here,,and I have enjoyed and learned a great deal thanks to Teresa and others,, I love the idea of those who can take what seems to others as just a wild bird and bring it to their home and have a companion,, I love al those stories,, its awesome...I may be one of those people sometime,, how can I ever think less of them for needing a companion that also happens to be a pigeon.. You have me all wrong,, pure and simple...
Gary H.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Well, let's say you removed the word "pigeon" from your controversial post logistically your plan doesn't seem very feasible.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2007)

Gary,
The ferals are our birds. If you feel so strongly about the plight in Mayanar, then why don't you send your own pigeons over there to be food? That should help ease your pain.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*Discussion Is OK, But ..*

Let's not let this thread get out of hand with lots of ugly posts aimed at individual members.

Incidentally, I believe the area being mentioned in some of the posts is Myanmar and not Mayanar. If this is correct, it concerns me a bit that some members are willing to get all fired up about a part of the world that as posted doesn't even exist. If I'm wrong, then I do apologize, but if I'm right, I have to ASSume that posts are being made without much real factual information at hand.

I do understand that a simple typo may have been made, but it seems to keep getting perpetuated.

Also, please keep in mind that posts about eating pigeons are not acceptable here on Pigeon-Talk.

Terry


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> Let's not let this thread get out of hand with lots of ugly posts aimed at individual members.
> 
> Incidentally, I believe the area being mentioned in some of the posts is Myanmar and not Mayanar. If this is correct, it concerns me a bit that some members are willing to get all fired up about a part of the world that as posted doesn't even exist. If I'm wrong, then I do apologize, but if I'm right, I have to ASSume that posts are being made without much real factual information at hand.
> 
> ...


 Terry,,
A simple typo doesn't exclude the plight of the children in need of food in this country,, others and myself,,,, are very serious about helping these people become able to raise their own food.. 
What pigeonperson stated was a fact,,, and it still holds true,, if it was a fact years ago in this country,, its no less a fact for what could be a viable source in other countries..
Someone stated,, these ferals are all yours,, no,, they are not....
neither you nor anyone else can say we don't have an over abundance.. If it were not true,, then why all the problems with the cities involved in all parts of the world?

Myanmar is a real country,, with real people with real needs,, and we have more than we need... You all want to be selfish,, thats your decision,,,, Like I said,, I didn't start this thread,, I never brought up the fact that pigeons were first domesticated for the purpose of food...
Actually I wasn't even aware of that simple fact,, even tho I did know some breeds were bred for that purpose,, and some breeds are bred for the sole purpose to bring home other pigeons for the dinner table,, hence,, the "thief Pouters",, ,, its amazing what history we have in our beloved pigeons huh?
Gary H.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Royaltypigeon said:


> Terry,,
> A simple typo doesn't exclude the plight of the children in need of food in this country,, others and myself,,,, are very serious about helping these people become able to raise their own food..
> What pigeonperson stated was a fact,,, and it still holds true,, if it was a fact years ago in this country,, its no less a fact for what could be a viable source in other countries..
> Someone stated,, these ferals are all yours,, no,, they are not....
> ...


Gary,

My points were that eating pigeons is not a topic to be discussed here on Pigeon-Talk. You and everyone else here agreed to this when you joined. Please see this link: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7006 and this text from the link: _2. This is a pigeon advocate website. Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any cruel treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website._ 

Personally, I am glad you are aware of and caring about the plight of others in the world. Still, neither you nor any other member has the right to make hurtful and inflammatory comments here.

I'm no expert on Thief Pouters, but I thought their "purpose" was more for basically gambling and fun as opposed to "stealing" pigeons to become table food.

Terry


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## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

I Think The Main Point Here Is This Is A Site For Pigeon Lovers We Don't Want to Hear About Something Bad Happing To The Pigeon. I Know i don't And I'll Sign Anything To Stop The Hurting Of These Animals. 

People In the US Don't Eat Horse Meat But Did You Know There Was companys From Out Of The US that Came In And Killed Horses(about 500,000 a year) For There Meat Just To Ship It Over sea's These Company Made Billions Off It. Thank God This Companys Are Now Banned In The US Which Was Banned Just this Year.

And If People Where To Start What You Are Talking About Shipping Pigeon Oversea Guess What Companys Still Get Rich And The People Will Still starve. 

There Are Alot Of Ways To Help Without Hurting The US Animals. we Have Superstars Making $55 Million Every Year A Goverment That Gets A Raise When They Want It. Really How Much Money Does Someone really Need, They Could Be Helping. Most People Live In High Price Homes And drive a New Car Ever few Years And Want To Out Do There Friend On Things They Have. All That Money they Have Spent On The Extra Things they Didn't Need Could Have Put Food In Someones Mouth Here In The US or Over Sea. So It Shouldn't Be About What animal We Can Ship Them So They Can Eat But How Much Money Is Wasted Every year On The Big Sceen TV, Car/s , Vactions, Big Homes or more then one home, That Extra Pair Of Shoes You Really Didn't Need. I've Even Seen Something About A $23,000 Tolit And Yes I Said A Tolit. Now That Is Some thing That Can Help " Money ", Pay And Send People Over To Help Them Learn To Grow there Own Food. Cut Out All The Things Poeple Didn't Really Need And Cut Superstar And Goverment Peoples Pay To A Reasonable Amount And Take All The Lift Over and You Would Have Billions To Help. 

I'm Glad You See There Are People That Are starving Out There Just Word Things For The Forum Your On. I'm Not Going To say I Don't Eat Meat, I Do Eat Meat Like Alot Of people. But We can Still Love An Animal And Not Want To See It Hurt in Any Way.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, the homeless and hungry need to be helped, but they need realistic and long term solutions for their needs. They need good nutritious wholesome foods that they themselves should be helped to grow. That is not possible in some countries, and therefore people need to help donate monies to feed them meanwhile. As long as people live to try to dominate others in this world, and the ten commandments are ignored, the problem of hunger and other problems will continue.

The solution for our ferals.....There is a POSITIVE SOLUTION. There are some VERY successful feeding sights and nesting areas set up in certain countries around the globe. Pigeons are fed and taken care of, they have roosting boxes, where they lay eggs and the eggs are removed and replaced with dummy eggs daily and populations of pigeons has remained the same but not increased. yes, it costs more in the beginning but it definitely shows results in the long run. This is a solution acceptible, it is what God would want us to do. They are His creatures too.

If everyone did what God wanted them to do ...these problems would not exist, these problems are created by mankind, as long as they are not rectified things will not change for this planet. That is being REALISTIC.


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## italianbird101 (Sep 12, 2007)

Treesa,

AMEN


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## Pisciottano (Aug 20, 2005)

Gary has not replied to the question asked by pigeonperson "would he send his OWN pigeons to Mayanar? If he wouldn't, then his arguments are neither serious nor valid. Gladys


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

italianbird101 said:


> Treesa,
> 
> AMEN


I'll second that!


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Royaltypigeon said:


> No Renee,, I don't,,
> I have yet to see one post on here about what can be done for the betterment of the pigeon,,,, NOT ONE,,,,,,,,,,,
> Gary H.


Are you referring to this thread? Or to the forum itself?

I don't think turning Pigeons into someone's dinner is a solution to any problems. Dispelling ignorance is, and we can begin with countering it by responding to articles like this that continue to promote the idea that pigeons are somehow carriers of disease, ruin buildings with droppings etc.

Now as to world hunger. I'm sure there are many of us here who are very concerned about it. Unfortunately it isn't just a question of giving food to the starving. That is too simplistic. The problem is not that of a shortage of food, but a political one. Thousands, probably millions of tons of food have been sent by many countries worldwide to nations with starving people, only to have it diverted by those in power and sold rather than used to ease starvation. I could name countries, but you know this is what happens. A little trickles down, but the majority is used to line the pockets of whatever warlord or dictator is in control. They don't mind using guns on whoever tries to alter the status quo.
I'm glad you care about these issues and hope that you do what you can to alter them according to your own beliefs and ethics. As for myself, I adhere to the think globally, act locally edict and try to do my part in my lifestyle choices and community participation. I think the welfare of pigeons is what this site is about when it comes to the bottom line.

Margarret


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## ryannon (Jul 4, 2007)

Great idea! Send pigeons to the starving masses in Myanmar (the dictatorship formerly known as Burma) Next step: get these people to change religion. Buddhists are generally vegetarians, and as far as I know, pigeons are not vegetables.

Beyond this minor obstacle, the logistics - not to mention the financials - of capturing, transporting, killing, dressing and cooking pigeons to feed the world's hungry is totally absurd. There's probably more usable protein in grasshoppers anyway: now there's an idea! 

In many other parts of the world, pigeons are traditionally cherished as companions, with niches provided around inhabitants' homes. Now all we well-meaning people have to do is to convince these 'ignorant' populations to eat them! After convincing the Burmese that pigeons are actually vegetables, this should be a snap....

The poster's desire to alleviate human suffering is a noble one, but I'm afraid that the idea of using pigeons to this end is total nonsense when one looks at the hard facts.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

ryannon,
You Rock!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I think we've gone about as far with this thread as we should so am closing it. There was some interesting and heartfelt information posted.

Terry


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