# Pox outbreak- Wild Bird feeder hygeine advice needed..



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I am wondering if anyone can offer me some advice regarding seeing some evidence of a pox outbreak amongst the birds that visit my backyard feeder? I live in AUstralia, so its the last fortnight of winter here. The climate is sub-tropical (winter temps of 25 degrees celcius). The spring and summer will be very hot and humid.

As far as I can tell, this hasn't spread yet, and I am very concerned about doing my best to stop it from infecting more birds via my own feeding activities. I'm just not sure what the best thing would be to do?

He is a picture of the diseased bird that I noticed this week:










I even have a name for him, since I've known him from the day he first left the nest in February. He's called `little face'. He is a the youngest of flock about 20 crows that visit here, and belongs to the dominant pair of crows (who own my yard), so he is here all the time basically. He's otherwise healthy and his feathers are very good for his age. 

Is there anything I can put int he water, or should put in the feed to help limit the spread of disease to the other birds? At the moment they get wild bird seed, soaked dog kibble (since I noticed the pox this week), and fresh water daily. I understand that pox in wild birds is incurable, and highly contagious. If it becomes internal, the death from it is slow and very painful 

I'd be grateful for any advice!


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

How awful! Those things on his feet look painful. Someone with more knowledge of crows should come along with a treatment plan. I hope he gets better and it doesn't spread to your birds.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Because he is wild, I cannot treat him; I can really only offer him & the other birds healthy food, safety, and water. Hopefully it will be enough to help him fight off infection, and prevent too much spread of disease. I sure wish I could dab those huge open wounds with iodine though! Poor little guy


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Unfortunately, the short-term answer is to remove the feeder. Pox will spread very quickly at feeders. Remove them, make sure they are soaked in a bleach solution before they are used again. 

Feeders are wonderful (I have a many) - but sometimes they can "kill with kindness."

I'm sorry for that little guy.  But crows are tough birds and he'll probably pull through just fine!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi, I don't feed mine in a `feeder' as such; I spread the food out in different areas of my back yard lawn so the birds don't fight and so the smaller species of birds can eat too. So unfortunately I cannot bleach the grass. Do you think this is a bad practice?


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Not in a normal situation. But since you've already seen the pox, I'd hold off for awhile. It's particulary contagious and birds in close contact are at risk. 

I know how you feel. I had to shut down my hummingbird feeder for a week when I spotted a bird with pox. But better that than lots of sick birds!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh Hummingbirds! That must be awesome having them come around. What type do you get where you live? We don't get them here in Australia & I've always longed to see one some day! 

Did closing down the feeder for a week seem to put an end to the pox outbreak?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Unfortunately, without supportive care, the birds that do get the pox could very well die. So you hate to stop feeding them, but in feeding them, the pox can more easily spread. I'm so sorry this has happened. Please let us know how things go with the birds. Good luck.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Jay,

Thanks a lot for your support! I hope everything has been going well for you this summer; I know you care a lot about birds and always do your best for them.

Any idea how far along these pox lesions might be? I read that the external version of pox will spontaneously begin to heal after 4 weeks....these look like they might be getting towards the end of their cycle?


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

I live in Southern California. We get all sorts of hummingbirds: Anna's, Allen's, black chinned and rufous!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Has he gotten any more lesions? After a month they should hopefully start to dry and fall off. Have you noticed any more birds with the disease? A mosquito, after feeding on a pox infected bird, can carry the disease and infect other birds for a month. I understand why you feed on the ground, and in different places, as it does spread them around the yard more. I use feeders, but still scatter feed on the ground for some of the ground feeders that prefer it that way. And I do have different feeding areas in the yard as you do. But if you could put out dishes or maybe trays in different areas, you could then bleach them to disinfect them every now and then. Also, any baths or water sources that they drink from should be bleached to kill the virus. But I'm sure you already know that. I hope his lesions will dry soon and begin to heal. Then to, the virus will live in the lesions that fall off for a long time. Please keep us updated as to his progress. And good luck. I know how upsetting this is for you.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

garacari said:


> I live in Southern California. We get all sorts of hummingbirds: Anna's, Allen's, black chinned and rufous!


Well that must be wonderful.We're in New England, and only get the ruby throat. But they are pretty, and a lot of fun to watch. Such amazing little birds. We have a butterfly and hummingbird garden, and love to sit there at the end of the day and watch them chasing each other around. So cute.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i wouldn't stop feeding them either, he needs all the help he can get.
pox is somewhat species specific and could pass to other corvids.
i would try my best to trap the baby that way you can give him supportive care until the virus runs it's course and he will be out of the population while contagious.
if you did manage to capture him he may die from the stress of handling so it's a tough situation, but you may save all the others


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I had meant that maybe the dishes should be used to feed, rather than on the ground, as you can clean them. I meant later on when the feeding is resumed. Not so sure they should keep feeding now, until this is cleared up. Sorry I wasn't clear in what I meant. I realize that the sick bird needs supportive care, but bringing so many birds together may not be such a great idea right now. Catching him if possible and helping him to get through this may be the best option for now.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I have hummers and goldfinches, too. Love those little guys! The gold finches dart and play all day on the feeders.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

doveone52 said:


> I have hummers and goldfinches, too. Love those little guys! The gold finches dart and play all day on the feeders.


me 2!! i have thistle socks for the goldfinches they come year round. soo cute, i have rehabb the babies, they are sooo adorable


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

altgirl35 said:


> me 2!! i have thistle socks for the goldfinches they come year round. soo cute, i have rehabb the babies, they are sooo adorable


Oh, wow! I would be in heaven with goldfinch babies!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> me 2!! i have thistle socks for the goldfinches they come year round. soo cute, i have rehabb the babies, they are sooo adorable


Mine like the thistle, but will also go to the black oil sunflower feeders as well. They're so pretty. Babies are so tiny. Must be interesting to rehab them.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*POX IS A VIRUS and there is no antibiotic to cure it it will run its course about 2-3 weeks after which the bird will have a life time of immunetyTHE POX MARKS ON THIS BIRD ARE ON THE FEET AND THAT IS MUCH BETTER THEN AROUND THE EYES OR IN THE MOUTH.. yOUNG IN THE NEST HAVE A DIFFERCULT TIME AS THEY LACK THE FEATHERS AND THERE FOR GET THE POX ALL OVER THEIR BODY.* GEORGE


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Mine like the thistle, but will also go to the black oil sunflower feeders as well. They're so pretty. Babies are so tiny. Must be interesting to rehab them.


oh they are, they make that cute little beep beep beep noise you hear outside and sort of bob with each peep, i love birdie hungry dances
sorry to hijack!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

*Update*

Hi everyone, and thanks for your replies!

Well, I didn't have the heart to stop feeding him; I have been very close to this little one since he was born, so the sicker he became, the closer he stayed to me. He started to roost in our yard at night (instea dof flying off to the communal roosts a few miles away) and spend most of his time hiding or feeding on the ground or in the trees within 20 meters or so of my back door. He got to the point where he was camped outside my back door in the mornings, and he'd wiggle his wings and holler at me whenever he saw me (but then scurry away shyly when I came too close).

Because he was so dependent, I was able to mostly feed him separately to the flock several times a day. I changed his food from only dog kibble to a combination of kibble and lamb hearts. 

During the last two days, he started to look noticeable weaker in the mornings, and was having difficultly flying - he could only lift himself into a low branch if he was terrified, and he was stumbling a lot. But after a few meals of lamb hearts during the morning , he'd pick up and then fly around normally during the afternoons. I thought he might make it.

Unfortunately, he stopped eating yesterday afternoon around 3pm. I gave him a really nice meal of lamb hearts and minced beef, which he ate slowly, then he flew onto the bird bath and had a nice drink of water. When he thought I wasn't looking he flew into the tree where he was born, and didn't come down again. 

This morning the other crows have been really freaked out and keep flying up to the tree where he was, looking at the ground and yelling. There were about 50 of them today coming in and making a huge racket every few hours or so. I have only seen them do this when they see another dead crow from their group; I am pretty sure its the sick one and that he didn't make it the night.

I spent he day looking out for him, and leaving treats around where he'd normally come and eat them. But there's been no sign of him. I am pretty sure he passed away


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I am so sorry if that is what happened to him. Would have been better if you could have brought him in and cared for him through this illness. Really sorry.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I am so sorry if that is what happened to him. Would have been better if you could have brought him in and cared for him through this illness. Really sorry.


Hi Jay!

This one could still fly so capture wasn't an option.

But last year, there was a pox-infected juvenile crow here that I did take in when it could no longer fly. By morning he couldn't stand or eat by himself. I only manged to keep him alive for two days, and I sometimes think it would have been better to have just left him to die in peace, without all that stress of being chased & betrayed by someone he trusted, and then living in a state of terror for two days while I handled him. 

When wild birds are dying, they usually know it, and they will time their death to happen during their sleep. When humans intervene, we can sometimes prolong their pain and fear, and they die whilst fully aware because of the forced feeding. I hope that will never happen to me again- its horrible


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Hi Bella, I understand how you feel, but I don't agree that it would have been better for you to have left that other crow outside to die. Many of us have captured and treated wild birds, and later been able to release them to have another chance at life. Your trying to help him was the right thing to do. It's just that sometimes, it's just too late for them by the time we get them, and nothing we can do will save them. It was still better that he died inside, rather than out there where he would have been an easy target for predators.
And trying to give them a chance to recover and then be released back to their life when we can, is better than not trying at all. Sometimes we just can't change what is to be, but I feel that we still need to try. It hurts us when we lose them, but that isn't important. What is important is that we tried for them.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

oh bella i'm so sorry to hear this, the poor little guy, i hope you can find his body, i would keep looking, he may just be too weak to get up into the trees and is hiding under the brush somewhere.
juvenile crows are tough jay, i had one die from stress once last summer, i'm still sick to this day about it, i was just bringing him upstairs to the rehab room and he started panting and kicked onto his back and died, it was awful i did everything i could to revive him, balled my eyes out over it.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Hi Bella, I understand how you feel, but I don't agree that it would have been better for you to have left that other crow outside to die. Many of us have captured and treated wild birds, and later been able to release them to have another chance at life. Your trying to help him was the right thing to do. It's just that sometimes, it's just too late for them by the time we get them, and nothing we can do will save them. It was still better that he died inside, rather than out there where he would have been an easy target for predators.
> And trying to give them a chance to recover and then be released back to their life when we can, is better than not trying at all. Sometimes we just can't change what is to be, but I feel that we still need to try. It hurts us when we lose them, but that isn't important. What is important is that we tried for them.


Hi Jay,

Yes, I'm sorry for what I said and how I said it- I know you are totally right generally speaking, and its best to help when we can, even if it doesn't turn out well. Humans have our love, strong medicine, and we can keep them warm & safe from predators when they are sick. What carers do is totally worth it.

I have been hurting awful, and my head isn't clear right now. I loved him, and I miss his little face so much. I keep looking outside expectantly, hoping against hope he'll turn up, and I cry very time I do it. Its been two whole days now since I saw him last and I know he couldn't have made it now


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

altgirl35 said:


> oh bella i'm so sorry to hear this, the poor little guy, i hope you can find his body, i would keep looking, he may just be too weak to get up into the trees and is hiding under the brush somewhere.
> juvenile crows are tough jay, i had one die from stress once last summer, i'm still sick to this day about it, i was just bringing him upstairs to the rehab room and he started panting and kicked onto his back and died, it was awful i did everything i could to revive him, balled my eyes out over it.


Hugs Altgirl,

Thanks for your support, and I am so sorry that happened to you: ( Crows are very sensitive, and I do think its a big decision to capture a sick one, as the stress is extremely bad for them...more than pigeons I think.

I agree that juvenile crows are very hardy, and so smart! I just think this little one must have had the pox internally as well as on his feet, otherwise he might have made it (since I was feeding him well). It also didn't help that he was a late summer baby, so he only had about 2 months to grow before winter hit him. He was the youngest in the area, and I guess his immune system wasn't all there yet.

Thanks again!

X Bella


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. During this ordeal, while I was feeling worried about the pox spreading to other crows in the flock, I came across a newsletter from a local (Australian) wildlife carers magazine from 2002. 

In it was an article about a healthy looking young crow being brought into a carer's aviary, and then her otherwise 10 healthy crows getting very sick. She then realized that the baby crow had a tiny pox lesion on its toe, and that he was spreading pox in her aviary. So she removed the one wit the pox lesion, and treated the rest with a probiotic called protexin , and vitamin powder in the crows food. This resulted in all of the ten sick crows from recovering fully.

Anyway, I went out and bought a jar of protexin powder and I've been putting in the water.

Altgirl, you probably know all about probiotics from your experiences, but just in case you have heard this, apparently probiotics are very good for captured birds. You just give them a double dose of probiotic after capture, and its supposed to protect them from the effects of shock & stress.

Anyway, the idea of it gives me some feeling of hope that next time i have to take in a wild bird, then maybe I can do something to stop them from deteriorating so quickly because of stress. But I dunno! I haven't done this before.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

ah bella i'm so sorry your hurting
and oh yes i do the probiotics with everything including mammals and my own pet birds.
i've only had a couple of birds with pox and they were all juvie cardinals and pulled through with time.
all i did was give baytril the whole time they had lesions and dabbed diluted betadine on the lesions twice a day.
i have never lost a bird to stress except for that baby last year, piji's are usually pretty easy going even the wild ones


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks heaps altgirl! You must be a gifted carer to have saved all those cardinals from pox. Also, I appreciate the info you shared, about adding the Baytril to the probiotics (or vice versa).

Still no sign of him today  I wish I'd found his body just so I would snap out of this feeling of hope that I might see him again.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

actually if your going to give baytil you want give the probies in a single dose 12 hrs after the baytril 
give them the whole days dose in the morning then a dose of the other in the evening, the baytril can kill good bacteria too


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just as an update, Although I kept feeding the little sick one when he was ill with Pox, there have been no signs of pox *at all* in the flock ever since. I have been using a pro-biotic powder in the water every day since he got sick; not sure if it helped, but its good to see the flock looking healthy and well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Glad they are all well.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Jay! Its now Spring and very lush where I live, so the hardest part of the year is over for now.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad you are now coming into great weather. We're heading into winter soon. Enjoy your summer!


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