# Inbreeding Question



## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

I have a cock bird that is from a proven bro/ sis mating. I also have a hen that is from a bro /sis mating. Both lines are totally separate famous families. Both have been proven to breed winners. Can anyone comment on attempting an outcross between 2 highly inbred birds.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

From what I have read, and this is only my opinion, crossing two inbred birds can result in what they call "hybrid vigor". And it is like getting an extra shot of performance.


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

This is from Ed Minvielle of Seigels...
We like to do a majority of our pairings linebred, but when we have a very inbred bird, in other words where we’ve made a combination of father-daughter or mother-son and produced a very inbred progeny, we like to cross that progeny to a completely different family. We do the father-daughter, mother-son pairings because we have found that when we take a very successful racer out of a super breeder and pair that successful racer back to its parent, we often get above average and sometimes even great breeders. If it’s a successful cock, we like to pair it back to its mother. If it’s a successful hen, we like to pair it back to its father. We try to race their young ones, and we don’t ask those young ones to be as successful in the races as we would expect an outcross to be, because those babies don’t have the advantage of having hybrid vigor.


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## Kenneth Flippen (Sep 5, 2009)

*i seond this*



bbcdon said:


> From what I have read, and this is only my opinion, crossing two inbred birds can result in what they call "hybrid vigor". And it is like getting an extra shot of performance.


Give it a shot the gamefowl guys have proven inbreeding then out crossing works if you get some free time there's a lot of good articles on breeding by some of the older gamefowl men I think alot of it could be applied to pigeons the draw back is its easy to raise a lot of chicks to select from we're limited on pigeons they only hatch 2 at a time

Kenneth


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Definately do the breeding.It will (should )produce Hybrid Vigor.That's what you want in Racers.Inbreed for Breeders outcross for Flyers.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Supposedly this is the best kind of mating for hybrid vigor in your racing team. Take two unrelated inbred birds and put them together. "Inbreed for breeders, cross for racers". People do this kind of breeding method for all animals they selectively breed.


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

My one concern was producing small sized birds that may not come into condition as well.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't see why they would. You're not inbreeding anymore  Which really inbreeding doesn't cause as many problems as people think. Especially if the birds have been selected enough to weed out the "Bad" stuff.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

redleg23 said:


> I have a cock bird that is from a proven bro/ sis mating. I also have a hen that is from a bro /sis mating. Both lines are totally separate famous families. Both have been proven to breed winners. Can anyone comment on attempting an outcross between 2 highly inbred birds.


 The families you say are "proven", but you make no mention of the racing abilites of the individual birds you plan to pair together. If they are typical pigeons, then the odds are they in turn will also produce typical pigeons. It is also questionable if they are indeed "highly" inbred, simply because they came from a bro/sis pairing. Now, if you go several generations of bro/sis pairings from the resulting offspring, then yes you will develope a highly inbred line.


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## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Warren, I was not looking at inbreeding on the same level as yourself. I will reconsider the descriptive term, "highly inbred". Your right both birds were bred for breeding stock, possibly producing typical racers, as always a chance. But, with the methods of inbreeding, is it not intended to produce breeders then racers? I'm unsure I follow what you are suggesting? Is it not possible to create exceptional race birds with 2 inbred birds that have never been in a race? I'm asking not in an offensive way. I would value your thought on this form of breeding. Do you personally breed only race birds that have proven their racing abilities? Thanks


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## tjad25 (Feb 6, 2012)

My bird inbreed all the time. They seem healthy lol


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

redleg23 said:


> Warren, I was not looking at inbreeding on the same level as yourself. I will reconsider the descriptive term, "highly inbred". Your right both birds were bred for breeding stock, possibly producing typical racers, as always a chance. But, with the methods of inbreeding, is it not intended to produce breeders then racers? I'm unsure I follow what you are suggesting? Is it not possible to create exceptional race birds with 2 inbred birds that have never been in a race? I'm asking not in an offensive way. I would value your thought on this form of breeding. Do you personally breed only race birds that have proven their racing abilities? Thanks


 A long held view has been that you pair two birds together from two different family lines, so in that regard you are correct in your line of thinking. 
Also, in general, the more inbred a line becomes, the more potent they can be as breeders.

I was simply trying to suggest, that even birds from so called inbred lines, can be very good racers. And that the crossing of two different lines does not always work out for some reason. Some lines just don't cross well, while others work very well. Just stating the obvious, as you most likely already know this, but sometimes I think I just like to hear myself talk.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

Well Warren if you hadn't said it I was about to and would have. Some lines cross well and some do not, as the same with individual birds no matter the line or lines.


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## Jimhalekw (Jan 1, 2010)

I should add that giving those two a try as a pair is what I think you should do, as I am sure most would. Not trying to be negative, and I wish you luck, just not in my races.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Ok, Here we go if you look at the AU site and see the number one bird in the national results, a bird that is band AU 11 JED 2026 "Miss Always First" is the name they give her.
I won't to let yall in on this story being we are talking about "inbreeding" this guy my mentor has had these birds for 6 years now three bloodlines, "Morning Star" "Golden Matten" "Topo" The Morning Star hen is 9 are 10 years old as is the topo and golden matten are about the same age, My mentor has taking each bird best Druthers are Sons and crossed back to them two times to get 7/8 blood to restock his loft, these three bloodlines have produce him many winners, and breeders. in my opeion he will be flying these birds for a long time if he keeps his stock up in this way. I have to say also you have to have good birds to do this if not, you are wasting your time, And yes the birds he has is GFL birds except the Morning Star she is Gaby Vandenbeele blood.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I would insert a picture of her but don't know how.


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