# Cat kibbles for birds



## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Noticed that the pijies finished the kibbles left for the feral cats. 

Know that taurine is essential for cats but not for birds. So will birds be harmed if they consume cat kibbles?

Suzanna


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I wouldn't worry about it. The problem is when the bacteria from the cat's saliva enters the bird's blood stream (like through a bite). The GI (gastrointestinal tract) is considered "outside the body" as the interor is covered with a type of epithelium.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good quality dry cat food is the basis for almost all the well respected and widely used bird "formulas". I've been thinking about rounding up all the diet info and posting it here for information and thought. I can also assure you that there has been many a baby sparrow and starling raised here that was raised on a diet largely based on dry cat food. I can also assure you that soaked dry dog food is the staple part of the diet my rehabber uses for crows.

I'd have to agree that the problem with cat saliva is when it gets into the bloodstream via a puncture wound as opposed into the digestive tract by a bird "scavenging" dry or even wet cat or dog food .. JMO .. 

Terry


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

That's a relief!

The feral birds here - pigeons, doves, sparrows, mynahs, crows, etc. feed on dry cat food regularly.  

I've tried reading up on the diet for the different species of birds but somehow got lost in the massive information. It will be great if there's some discussion on this issue in this forum to clarify some doubts.

Suzanna


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

This question isn't so much about the kitty kibble itself, but bacteria. I wondered why some folks here and at other sites are adamant about 
the transfer of bacteria through saliva to birds being dangerous for instance,
with humans? Many sites seem compelled to remind caretakers of the dangers
of human saliva to birds. Does this mean that cat saliva is less dangerous
if the route is through the mouth? Does it mean that cats and birds don't have
enough in common to catch illness from one another in the same way that 
birds and humans do? What specifically makes it OK for a bird to ingest 
something that cat saliva might be on but not human saliva?


fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Cat and dog dry food are good for pigeons. They do very well on it. I supplement my birds with Eukanuba premium dog food that I buy for my dogs


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> Cat and dog dry food are good for pigeons. They do very well on it. I supplement my birds with Eukanuba premium dog food that I buy for my dogs



Yes, I agree and use it for rescues without qualms. I just am curious in a situation that birds will be eating from kibble potentially that has fallen from
a cats mouth, about the saliva impact. Also, if there is none, then what
is the hullabaloo about human saliva and what is the difference between the two types of exposure in an ingestion scenario??

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

i persolly dont think that there is a prblem


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> i persolly dont think that there is a prblem


Are you basing this opinion on something you have read?

I respect TAW, JGregg and your opinions, I just can't grasp what the hullabaloo
about human saliva is if cat saliva is ok when introduced via ingestion into
the intestines.

Does anyone have citations/links?

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

feralpigeon said:


> Are you basing this opinion on something you have read?
> 
> I respect TAW, JGregg and your opinions, I just can't grasp what the hullabaloo
> about human saliva is if cat saliva is ok when introduced via ingestion into
> ...


Here's a link with some further links regarding cat and human saliva and birds. Apparently even ingested saliva can be harmful and even deadly. I stand corrected.

http://www.cleos-corner.com/ParrotGeneralInformation.html

And a couple more: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1638&S=1&SourceID=28

http://www.petsmart.com/global/arti...723696503927&bmUID=1185192404835&No=120&N=228

Terry


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

This is my observation.

My cat eats her own food and if my dogs are around they chase her and eat the balance. sometimes if there are left over the crows eat it because the cat i fed outdoors. 
Also i notice that cats are clean eaters and hardly drools saliva like a dog thus I believe that the food is reasonably clean.
This is my opinion from my observations. I could be wrong but so far nothing has happened to any of them


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

My cats don't salavitate over food, but especially one of them will break the
kibble in her mouth and part of the kibble falls back into the bowl. That is
why I am concerned about the issue. I know that Mr. Squeaks shares a bowl
(or so he thinks) w/a cat or three, so that is a situation that would be observed
and known if there were problems. I just don't know about a situation w/ferals though, in that there is no way of knowing if something has gone wrong.
It sounds as though the potential is there, and for one reason or other not
realized in some instances. Though perhaps it could be in another.

I'll email the link and see if there are any other insights that
might be offered through recources JGregg may have.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

Ferals eat so much junk that cat food must be super feed for them even if it fell back down from the mouth of a cat.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> My cats don't salavitate over food, but especially one of them will break the
> kibble in her mouth and part of the kibble falls back into the bowl. That is
> why I am concerned about the issue. *I know that Mr. Squeaks shares a bowl
> (or so he thinks) w/a cat or three, so that is a situation that would be observed
> ...


I remember my Avian Vet saying not to worry about my cats giving anything to Squeaks OR Squeaks giving anything to them. NOW, we did NOT discuss saliva contamination from a bite or anything from a claw strike. 

Yes, I HAVE observered that sometimes the cats will break up a pellet in their mouth and pieces drop back down into the dish. Whether said cat then EATS the dropped portion, I don't always know. 

Sometimes, Squeaks will wander out toward the kitchen before I have consolidated the pellets into one dish. He will make himself at home and start pecking at some pellets. Some he eats, some he doesn't. Obviously, he doesn't seem to be getting saliva "infected" pellets...so far. He's still going strong. Of course, he also doesn't eat cat pellets every day either.

Can't speak for others but Squeaks and the cats have a very close environment/relationship and so far...so good. 

In fact, I was shocked this morning when I put Squeaks down on the floor and just a second later heard him growl/grunt and saw Twiggy scooting out from under his table area! I didn't realize she was there! Squeaks chased her away before going for breakfast! Besides, she WAS near where his egg basket would be sitting!!  

Shi


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I have specifically talked about mammal saliva and birds ingesting it with several veternarians, and they've said not to worry about it. I'm sure that some time some bird got sick from ingesting mammal saliva, lots of things happen. And that said I wouldn't allow a sick bird to eat out of the cat's dish.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

The food itself _is superfood _, but not so much for the feral, or at least there is cause for concern. If you didn't take time to read the links supplied by Terry, here are the excerpts that apply:

From:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1638&S=1&SourceID=28

This Quote:

*" Direct contact with dog or cat saliva, regardless of whether or not the skin was broken, is also an urgent matter -- your bird will likely need to be started on antibiotics right away."*

From:

http://www.cleos-corner.com/ParrotGeneralInformation.html

These two topics of cat and human saliva:

Quote:

"Is cat saliva really toxic to birds?
Here are a few quotes from some web sites To read the full account click on the links:
*"Cat saliva contains a bacteria that is usually fatal to birds unless the appropriate antibiotic is administered."* 
(Maine Audubon: http://www.pvcaudubon.org/found.htm )
*"Having cat saliva on a birds feathers is enough to introduce an infection that could kill the bird."* (Parrot Passions UK: http://www.parrotpassionsuk.com/First parrot/otherpets.htm )
*"Even saliva from a cat transferred to a bird can cause them to become ill and die. If ever your bird has contact with a cat--even if this contact seems incidental--an immediate vet visit is in order."*(Parrot Parrot: Cats and Birds article: http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa011301.htm )
*"Cats commonly have Pasteurella bacteria as part of their natural flora. While this bacteria is ubiquitous in cats and does them no harm, it is DEADLY to birds. Even if your cat just bats your bird or gets saliva on your bird, you could end up with a dead bird."* (Parrot Parrot: Alerts page: http://www.parrotparrot.com/birdhealth/alerts.htm#cats )
*"Regardless, contact with a cat's saliva, which contains a bacteria deadly to birds called Pasteurella, could be fatal." *(Parrot Chronicles: Hazards page: http://www.parrotchronicles.com/departments/hazards.htm )."

This Quote:

"Can human saliva make my bird sick?"
"My vet is VERY adament about not allowing birds to come into contact with human saliva. So much so that he does not even want parrot owners to give a little kiss on the head. To back him up here are some quotes from the web:
From Parrot Chronicles, "Human saliva is not in itself toxic, of course. And your bird cannot catch a human cold from you. However, all mammalian saliva carries bacteria that could make your bird sick with infections of the sinuses, throat, lungs, air sacs, gastro-intestinal tract or internal organs.Therefore, never let your bird make contact with your mouth--even for a quick "peck"--and do not bite off food for your bird."
And from ExoticPet.Net: http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/budgietiel.html : "Our mouths contain many microbes that can cause disease in birds, and contact with the human mouth should be strictly prohibited." 

And the last link posted by Terry:

http://www.petsmart.com/global/arti...723696503927&bmUID=1185192404835&No=120&N=228

This Quote (which happens to be from Dr. Brian Speers that I go to):

"Why Mammal Saliva and Birds Don't Mix:"

*"Birds mouths are much cleaner than ours. And, ours are much cleaner than say a cat's. When it comes to birds, the most dangerous organism in any mammal's mouth is something called Pasteurella multocida. Once introduced onto or into a bird, Pasteurella multocida can become a "very infectious organism," says Speer, crossing membranes, entering the blood stream, and taking a bird from perfect health to death in as little as one hour.*

*That means a bird that is attacked by a cat, even if the injuries look minor, can be in serious trouble. The bird's instinct will be to clean the wounds by licking them. Doing so, the bird ingests this dangerous organism and may be starting a chain of events that leads to serious illness and even death.*

According to Speer, this same organism can be found to a lesser extent in dog and human saliva. "Unless it's a really wet kiss," chuckles Speer, "It's not a real danger to kiss them." However, he warns that safety precautions should be taken to prevent any cats or dogs (no matter how well-behaved) from "kissing" your pet bird -- even if it does look cute. Sharing food with your bird can also be a bad idea. For example, if you bite off a piece of apple before feeding it to your bird, your saliva is on that piece of food and can be introduced into your bird's system.

"In general, the rule of thumb is that you don't want saliva and pet birds to mix," says Speer. "From an academic sense, there is some risk [to kissing your bird], but I've never seen a sick bird from human saliva. I have seen it with dogs and cats."

To be safe, Speer recommends showing your pet birds affection by talking to them, handling them, and scratching them in a favorite spot."


These quotes, from many different professional sources, all point to ingestion
as well as bloodstream entry as problematic and life threatening.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Great post, fp...can't disagree...

Too bad that Squeaks, the cats and I are between the proverbial "rock and a hard place!" 

- I found badly injured pij...REFUSED to let him die if I had any options

- I have 3 cats (4 at the time) and was not about to give them up

- I live in a 1 bdrm apartment

*WHAT TO DO??*

- Pij - a.k.a. Mr. Squeaks - survived. Cats aware of Squeaks before he was allowed out and about among them. 

- Squeaks shows cats, by attitude, that "fear" is not part of his pij vocabulary. Cats listen and respect.

- Squeaks goes where he wants, when he wants and will sometimes "chase" cat(s) away from HIS territory (i.e. egg basket).

- MOST of the time, cats don't bother Squeaks and Squeaks doesn't antagonize cats.

*LESSONS & OBSERVATIONS LEARNED...*

- I am lucky

- Fur & Feathers _can_ co-exist in small area

- Do not mess with status quo

- BE ever vigilent

- ENJOY

- Share new adventures/observations/insights with PT members

Thanks for listening/reading     

SHI
The human watching over all


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Shi, the post was certainly hard work, but the links were provided by
Terry. I don't think it's all impossible, I have cats and birds also, but 
one needs to not become complacent. As for ferals and cat kibble,
seems to me it would be somewhat like feeding pellets. Maybe the answer
is to feed in a way that cats can't get to it....HA! A bird feeder w/cat kibble....now that makes perfect sense, to us anyway  .

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Thanks Shi, the post was certainly hard work, but the links were provided by
> Terry. I don't think it's all impossible, I have cats and birds also, but
> one needs to not become complacent. As for ferals and cat kibble,
> seems to me it would be somewhat like feeding pellets. Maybe the answer
> ...


or dog kibble! Actually, that DOES makes some sense...maybe mix with some seeds??

Mmm, then again, IF kibble just "happens" to land on the ground...and there are cats around...well...maybe not such a good idea after all...depending!  

Something to think about though, depending on whether there ARE any cats around...my bird feeder is on my balcony and my cats don't get there, nor do cats come "up" to my balcony!

Shi


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