# new first pigeon



## kathleen

hello. I rescued a pigeon about 3 days ago. She (I think) was sitting by the side of the street for 2 days. I noticed her when I was walking my dogs. I know nothing about birds whatsoever. I bought a cage and got her into it pretty easily. She seemed unafraid of being in the cage and I think she either was someone's pet or is young although she's quite large - pure white with pink feet and a pink bill. Her eyes are a dark color with a bit of deep blue to them. She's very alert, listens to me whenever I speak.

My first question is when I was cleaning her cage today she seemed less frightened of me than previously but made a loud peeping, almost a screech type of peep when my hand came near her. I assume she was frightened but when she saw me just a couple of minutes ago, she peeped/screeched again and cocked her head to look at me. She's quite beautiful and I've fallen in love with her. Unfortunately I have cats and can't keep her and I'm trying to find someone to adopt her. In the meantime, she'll be here with me. Any advice would be most welcome. Thank you.


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## Pidgey

Any pigeon that squeaks is a squeaker! That means, too young to be on their own. Has she eaten anything or learned to drink?

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds

Can you tell us where you are? There may be someone close by that would take the bird......Does the bird have a band?


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## kathleen

*"Squeaker"*

Since I posted, I've done some reading. Yes, she must be a young bird although she looks adult. Now, everytime I go near her she peeps and squeaks. I put my hand in the cage and put some seeds on her towel for her and she ate them...tried to. She couldn't seem to get the larger pieces down but did eat and she has been drinking water. I also gave her a bit of organic cereal (flax & soy) which she seemed to really like.

Does she think I'm her mother now? She fans her wings when I open the cage sometimes also but not like shes trying to hurt me. I talk to her frequently and she seems to really be listening to me.

I'm in Los Angeles in the Hollywood Hills if anyone knows of someone who wants this adorable pure white baby. I've named her Lullaby and I've been singing to her which she seems to like ... please give me any and all suggestions as to how to care for her until I can find her a good home. My cats are not willing to promise not to eat her.

Thanks


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## Lovebirds

kathleen said:


> Since I posted, I've done some reading. Yes, she must be a young bird although she looks adult. Now, everytime I go near her she peeps and squeaks. I put my hand in the cage and put some seeds on her towel for her and she ate them...tried to. She couldn't seem to get the larger pieces down but did eat and she has been drinking water. I also gave her a bit of organic cereal (flax & soy) which she seemed to really like.
> 
> Does she think I'm her mother now? She fans her wings when I open the cage sometimes also but not like shes trying to hurt me. I talk to her frequently and she seems to really be listening to me.
> 
> I'm in Los Angeles in the Hollywood Hills if anyone knows of someone who wants this adorable pure white baby. I've named her Lullaby and I've been singing to her which she seems to like ... please give me any and all suggestions as to how to care for her until I can find her a good home. My cats are not willing to promise not to eat her.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



Kathleen, we do have a member that is in Lake Forest, CA. That appears to be about an hour from you. Don't know if you would be willing to take the bird to her? I'm sure she'll be on in a while. Her name is Terry.
In the meantime, it sounds like this baby is very close to eating on its own. If you will sprinkle some seeds around and sort of peck with you fingers and try to get her to eat, that would be a good first step. The fact that she's drinking is great. Baby pigeons flap thier wings when Mom and Dad feed them or when they are begging to be fed, so I suspect this is what you are seeing. For now, as long as she's eating and drinking she'll be fine. Can you tell us what her poops look like. that's a good indication of whether she's eating enough or not. She sounds adorable. We'd love to see a picture if you can do that.
PS:..it appears that Terry is with us now.............LOL


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for rescuing Lullaby, Kathleen! S/he sounds like a most beautiful youngster. If you can't find anyone closer, I will give Lullaby a home. I'm down in Lake Forest in South Orange County.

Terry


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## kathleen

Hi Renee,

My husband just got home and is going to take a picture of her. Yes, it seems that she thinks I'm a parent after only being with me for 3 days. She is so sweet and cute that my husband is also in love with her. I'm not sure where Lake Forest is but will google it.

If it isn't more than a couple of hours we'd be happy to take her although it will break my heart. I'm so in love with her. We've discussed all sorts of things to try to keep her but we live in an apartment with cats and 2 dogs...oh, if only I had a farm.


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## Lovebirds

Well, I know how you must feel........to bad you can't keep her. They are such adorable and sweet birds. We may have a contact closer to you in Hawthorne.........we're checking it out now. He's a rehabber for pigeons. One of us will get back with you.


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## kathleen

Hi Terry, thanks so much for getting back. We have asked a couple of people in our area if they're interested and we'll see what happens. We will keep her until we know we have a home for her. If it looks like we can't find someone to love her, we will take you up on your offer gladly. Obviously, you love these sweet birds and I just want her to have a loving home. I've never known anything about them but I can't believe how responsive she is. She actually listens when I talk more than my cats do!


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## kathleen

*additional info*

Hi Terry and Renee,

regarding her poops, they've been watery and kind of whitish with green smears. Sounds gross I know but they don't seem to smell but I've been cleaning her cage regularly.

Can someone tell me how to post a picture here? I'm not sure how to go about it.

thanks again,
Kathleen and Lullaby


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## Lovebirds

I copied these for you.......couldn't figure out how to post the link its self......LOL


Upload the picture right below your post....

Follow these instructions:

YOUR pictures must be JPEG images and no larger then 400 X 400 pixels

1.After posting your reply, but before submitting it, scroll down to MANAGE ATTACHMENTS: click on it.

2. A new window will appear/open, and you then click:BROWSE

3.Go to your picture file and click on the picture you want to upload, then click OPEN.

4. Then click on UPLOAD, once the pic is uploaded you can close the window. You know the pic is uploaded as the ATT number will be listed on the window. If it didn't upload it will let you know. Your picture must be smaller then 100 KB's to load.

5. SUBMIT REPLY, and your attachment will show up with your post.


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## Pidgey

You have to choose the "Go Advanced" reply option in order to be given the option to post pictures.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*Baby Lullaby*

Here's our young rescue who needs a home in the Los Angeles area. Hope this works.


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## Lovebirds

It worked!! What a cutie. I can't tell by looking if it's a youngster or not. But from the sounds you describe it must be. A young pigeon can appear fully grown at about 35 to 40 days old. I sent you a private message by the way. If you have any questions you can ask. The name is just if you can't find someone who's looking for a pet pigeon. Good luck.


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## Pidgey

If Lullaby is drinking water then we don't need to worry about dehydration, at least. To give you an idea, though, a pigeon like that should be eating about a tablespoon per day of various seeds. Usually, when they're starving, they'll pretty well go to town on seeds once they really get the hang of it but they also want Mama or Daddy to feed them like normal. So, it behooves you at this point to keep the finger pecking up rather incessantly to keep reinforcing the concept of self feeding if they're not getting enough down.

Pretty bird, though.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

She just ate out of my hand! She flaps her wings when my hand is in there and touches my hand with her wings. She is an angel. I'm almost ready to give my cats away to keep her...but I can't.


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## sabina

Kathleen,
We have 2 cats in a very small apartment, and we've had pigeons living with us for months at a time. (We had adopted one but he escaped.) It's not necessarily a problem, lots of people have cats and dogs along with their pigeons. Our cats never bothered or touched the pigeons, and the pigeons were free-flying all day. We've even had pigeons that didn't fly and only stayed on the ground, and the cats didn't bother them either. Just looked at them kind of curiously. Certainly to be cautious, it's best to keep the birds in a cage if you're not home. But supervised, it might be fine.
Just something to consider!
Sabina


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## TAWhatley

That's a lovely youngster, Kathleen! I'm probably about 55 miles south of you. I'm right where the 5 and 405 come together going south from where you are .. it's about an hour or a bit more on a good day .. hours on a bad day  I worked in downtown LA for many years, then Culver City, then Glendale and commuted from way down here, so I know that traffic can be a beast. Still, I had someone bring me a pigeon from Fullerton this evening leaving there at 5:30 PM, coming down I-5, and still got here in about 40 minutes .. amazing!

Terry


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## Hillybean

Thank you so very much for saving the beautiful pigeon!

I have a pet pigeon, a cat and lots of other animal companions. He's in his cage, when I'm not home to watch him. When I am home though, he is out for hours. My cat has never tried to bother him, but she is use to different animals and is blind (can see shadows in one eye). Other members have cats and pigeons as well.

You may want to see how things go, before you decide to find Lullaby a new home. Unless, the cats are giving the pigeon TOO much attention.

If I didn't think shipping would be too much on Lullaby (with just be founf and all), I'd offer it a pet pigeon home. Shipping would have to be a must though . 

Terry,
has lots of experiance with pigeons and can offer a fantastic home .

-hilly


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## pigeonmama

Hey, I have 2 cats, a dog (sighthound), 3 pigeons and a dove living in this mad house together. Every one gets along just fine. Birds are only allowed out when we are in the living room with them. Just a matter of training.
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, I wanted to thank you for rescuing this beautiful baby Lullaby. It is so nice to have someone who has never taken care of pigeons realize how wonderful these birds are.

Her poop description, to me, means that she needs more nourishment so I would definitely work with her a lot to get her eating on her own. Since you have cats, you can soak some of their pelleted food until it softens, but is not mushy, and pop a few of those down her throat from time to time during the day.


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## Skyeking

Hi Kathleen,

Thank you for taking care of this youngster and posting with answers to questions. You can put some human grade probiotics in its water and the poops may just solidify.


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## kathleen

Hillybean said:


> Thank you so very much for saving the beautiful pigeon!
> 
> I have a pet pigeon, a cat and lots of other animal companions. He's in his cage, when I'm not home to watch him. When I am home though, he is out for hours. My cat has never tried to bother him, but she is use to different animals and is blind (can see shadows in one eye). Other members have cats and pigeons as well.
> 
> You may want to see how things go, before you decide to find Lullaby a new home. Unless, the cats are giving the pigeon TOO much attention.
> 
> If I didn't think shipping would be too much on Lullaby (with just be founf and all), I'd offer it a pet pigeon home. Shipping would have to be a must though .
> 
> Terry,
> has lots of experiance with pigeons and can offer a fantastic home .
> 
> -hilly


Hi Hilly,
I had to get back to you first because I see you're in Indiana. I grew up on my grandparents' farm in Brooklyn, near Martinsville. I grew up with animals so I am no stranger to them. She now lets me stroke her and I feed her out of my hand. I tried to convince her to take a bath but she jumped out of the water but at least got her feet clean, I dried her with a towel. I don't know how I can part with her. I'm going to wait and see how things go. 2 of my cats were feral and lived on birds so I don't know that they can ever get along together. Thanks for the encouragement and if I can't find her a local home, I'll definitely consider shipping her back to my home state.
best, Kathleen


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## kathleen

pigeonmama said:


> Hey, I have 2 cats, a dog (sighthound), 3 pigeons and a dove living in this mad house together. Every one gets along just fine. Birds are only allowed out when we are in the living room with them. Just a matter of training.
> Daryl


hi Daryl, how did you introduce the pigeon to the other animals? If I do keep her (in my tiny apartment) which I'd love to do, I'm not sure how to introduce her without her becoming terrified since 2 of my cats were wild and ate birds to survive before I rescued them. Advice would be much appreciated.
Kathleen


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## kathleen

Lady Tarheel said:


> Kathleen, I wanted to thank you for rescuing this beautiful baby Lullaby. It is so nice to have someone who has never taken care of pigeons realize how wonderful these birds are.
> 
> Her poop description, to me, means that she needs more nourishment so I would definitely work with her a lot to get her eating on her own. Since you have cats, you can soak some of their pelleted food until it softens, but is not mushy, and pop a few of those down her throat from time to time during the day.


Her poops are more solid today. She's eating much better. Thanks for the tip about the soy - I won't give her anymore of the cereal. Should I offer her other seeds other than the bird feed? Sunflower? peanuts? How about lettuce. Would she like greens?
Thanks for your help.
Kathleen


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## mr squeaks

Hi Kathleen...

I've been following your posts. I, too, have 1 pigeon in a 660 sq. ft. 1 bdrm apt. He cannot fly and lives with me and THREE feral cats!

Rather than going into a long discussion, I will refer you to our STORY section and the story I posted there about living with Fur and Feathers Part I & II (under Mr. Squeaks). I told how I found him, and how he adjusted to living w/3 cats (there were actually 4 at that time, but....well, you'll see..I no longer have Bubba).

Lullaby can fly, which means he/she can get away from the cats. However, your apartment would have to be bird proofed, especially if the cats decide they want to try and fly too! Hopefully, you don't have a lot of knick knacks and other breakables around!

Hope my story will help! Time, patience and lots of love make a world of difference...   

Shi
Mate & Mama to Mr. Squeaks


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## maryjane

Hi Kathleen and welcome. You asked about treats; lettuce is okay to give (the kind with nutrients in it, such as romaine), as well as unsalted raw peanuts as a treat, or unsalted, unbuttered popcorn once in awhile (the kettle kind). I also lived for many years with my pigeons and seven cats in the house. Most of the cats were bottle fed ferals, but Gary was a feral we trapped and brought in at three months, and he never had a problem adjusting to the "No Eating The Birds" rule.  The most important tool in this is the Squirt Bottle! (caps intended!) A few squirt bottles laying around the house in easy reach work wonders. Make a noise when you spray them, and soon you won't even need to have the bottle in your hand; the noise will do the job. My cats are now mostly outdoor (by choice, they have their own little colony set up out in the back with my newer feral lol, but can come in anytime) and even years later I can make the squirt bottle sound and they stop whatever it is they're doing.  Feral cats are shy by nature and I have found them actually easier to teach about pet animals, than tame cats who are a bit cocky and not always inclined to listen.  Good luck with your Angel and I hope you decide to keep her, it's so nice to have new people falling in love with pijies.


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## Victor

kathleen said:


> Should I offer her other seeds other than the bird feed? Sunflower? peanuts?
> Kathleen



Try and stay away from sunflower, unless they are the shelled unsalted raw variety. The black sunflower seeds, well, I have read too many sad stories of pigeons rupturing their crops...it is rare but happens. Peanuts, ok if they are RAW unsalted, abd perhaps broken up so it can be consumed. I have 6 pet pigeons, and they ignor them to the point I quit buying them. The peanuts end up in my wild bird jar.


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## kathleen

*Thank you from Lullaby*

To all of you,

I have never experienced so much goodwill, helpfulness and kindness as on this website. All of you have been so very helpful. I'm going to see if it's at all possible to keep my foundling. She is obviously bonding to me, she makes these small little wingflaps when she sees me and I can now pet her softly and she almost snuggles against my hand. I'm dying to let her free in our little living room (with all cats and dogs locked out) and see how she does. I only want what's best for her.

It's clear from the kindness and concern I've found here that you are all fantastic animal lovers...if only the rest of the world would be half as kind...
Thanks again and keep any other advice coming.
very best, Kathleen


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## Maggie-NC

kathleen said:


> Her poops are more solid today. She's eating much better. Thanks for the tip about the soy - I won't give her anymore of the cereal. Should I offer her other seeds other than the bird feed? Sunflower? peanuts? How about lettuce. Would she like greens?
> Thanks for your help.
> Kathleen


Kathleen, I'm really glad to hear the poops are improving and that she is eating more. We give our pigeons chopped kale at least once a week. It is very good for them. Lettuce is mostly water and has no nutritional benefit.

If you have a good, all purpose seed mixture, she should be fine with that plus a little ACV in her water at least once a week and a good quality probiotic at least once a week. Our pigeons love safflour seed. They're white and a little smaller than sunflower seed. We also give them popcorn, lentils and split peas that you can get at the grocery store. Ours also love Hartz seed (for small birds) and Zupreem Avian Maintenance (ususally for cockatiels but ours devour it) fruitblend pellets.


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## mr squeaks

Squeaks gets Safflower and Hemp seeds for treats. His "snack" in the afternoon, when the cats get their evening meal, is a little Kaytee Song Bird Mix...


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## Hillybean

kathleen said:


> Hi Hilly,
> I had to get back to you first because I see you're in Indiana. I grew up on my grandparents' farm in Brooklyn, near Martinsville. I grew up with animals so I am no stranger to them. She now lets me stroke her and I feed her out of my hand. I tried to convince her to take a bath but she jumped out of the water but at least got her feet clean, I dried her with a towel. I don't know how I can part with her. I'm going to wait and see how things go. 2 of my cats were feral and lived on birds so I don't know that they can ever get along together. Thanks for the encouragement and if I can't find her a local home, I'll definitely consider shipping her back to my home state.
> best, Kathleen



Kathleen,
yep I'm located in Indiana. I actually know where both Brooklyn and Martinsville are located . They're about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs drive from me. I'm so glad to read that Lullaby has improved (poos all looking good, is eating and drinking). 
You may want to wait a few days and try the bath again. She might just have to get use to the location or what your using to bath her in. It took my MP, a while before he REALLY took a bath and he was use to baths. Now, he absolutely loves them!
Yep, they kinda surprise ya with their personalities. Now that I have my MP, I don't know why I didn't get a pet pigeon sooner.
Please keep us (the members and myself) posted.

Best of luck,
hilly


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, we have a little one that we're keeping in the house for the winter. We could tell he wanted to bathe because he kept sitting in his water bowl. We filled a dishpan with about 4" of water, set it in the sink and stuck him in there. Out he flew, flinging water everywhere. We put him back in and same thing happened. Finally, we put him back in the water, put the top to his cage over him so he couldn't get out and within 2 minutes he was happily splashing away. He must have stayed in there 20 or more minutes. They just have to get used to it. Sometimes, they scare easily when anything new is introduced.


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## kathleen

Thanks Maggie, I'll do it in the sink next time with more room for her to splash around. She seems very happy (if it is a she but doesnt' matter to me one bit) I actually had someone offer to take her today because she looked like a little snowball in her cage butg I said, let's wait and see. She's got me hooked I'm afraid. I'm still a bit worried about her eating. She does eat from her dish (but seems she flings most seeds all over rather than in her) and wants to eat from my hand but doesnt' seem to get much from it. Mostly she picks at my fingers. Is this normal?


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## kathleen

Hillybean said:


> Kathleen,
> yep I'm located in Indiana. I actually know where both Brooklyn and Martinsville are located . They're about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs drive from me. I'm so glad to read that Lullaby has improved (poos all looking good, is eating and drinking).
> You may want to wait a few days and try the bath again. She might just have to get use to the location or what your using to bath her in. It took my MP, a while before he REALLY took a bath and he was use to baths. Now, he absolutely loves them!
> Yep, they kinda surprise ya with their personalities. Now that I have my MP, I don't know why I didn't get a pet pigeon sooner.
> Please keep us (the members and myself) posted.
> 
> Best of luck,
> hilly


Thanks Hilly. I'll take your advice. I live in LA now, I'm a writer but my husband and I have been toying with the idea of moving to Kentucky (where my folks originally were before Indiana in the early 1800's.) I miss it. Today she was outside with me in her cage, I was reading and she was beside me all day in the sunshine and seemed to love it. I really want to let her have some room as she's flapping her wings and want to know if it's okay to let her have the run of the living room (without cats and dogs). If so, should I just take her out of the cage and set her on the floor and let her do what she wants? Also, I know this sounds stupid, but if she poops on furniture or rugs, can you suggest the best thing to clean it with. I'm not ridiculous about it but it does seem to stain my towels so I just want to know if it gets on furniture. 
best, Kathleen


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## mr squeaks

Hi Kathleen, with the cats and Mr. Squeaks, I use a product called "*Nature's Miracle*" - I get the one for cats stain and ordor. It comes in a white bottle with *red* lettering. GREAT for erasing stains and eliminating odors!

I buy mine at Petco. PetsMart would probably have it too.


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## Hillybean

kathleen said:


> Thanks Hilly. I'll take your advice. I live in LA now, I'm a writer but my husband and I have been toying with the idea of moving to Kentucky (where my folks originally were before Indiana in the early 1800's.) I miss it. Today she was outside with me in her cage, I was reading and she was beside me all day in the sunshine and seemed to love it. I really want to let her have some room as she's flapping her wings and want to know if it's okay to let her have the run of the living room (without cats and dogs). If so, should I just take her out of the cage and set her on the floor and let her do what she wants? Also, I know this sounds stupid, but if she poops on furniture or rugs, can you suggest the best thing to clean it with. I'm not ridiculous about it but it does seem to stain my towels so I just want to know if it gets on furniture.
> best, Kathleen


Hey Kathleen,
Kentucky is beautiful. My MP will fly to me and sit in my lap or on my shoulder, while I'm reading or doing paper work. I'd try the living room and see how it goes. Make sure you have no fans on and doors/windows are shut (pigeon proof the room). 

I'd start off by putting her cage on the floor, maybe take her out and let her walk on top. She'll scope things out and will decide to fly where she wants. Most likely to you, the floor and/or furniture. You could also try to get her to perch on your hand or shoulder and walk slowly around the room. 
My Mp started off on top of his cage, the next step was he flew to me, and then he flew to me where ever I was. He now also explores  .

Mr. Squeaks (Shi),
gave a very good product to use. I normally use old sheets and cover the furniture. 
I've also used a product called Resolve, it only takes a little bit and works. I do recommand you crack a window a little bit if you use it, it can be a bit strong (depending on how much you use). You can get it at wal-mart.
For towels/your cloths, I recommend you use oxyclean and/or shout.

I hope this helps!
-hilly


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## kathleen

*Lullaby Update*

Well, it's been a week today. Lullaby right now is sitting in front of the stereo outside her cage listening to music. I'm serious. no matter where I put her in the room she waddles back in front of the stereo and seems to love it - it's some very mellow, peaceful instrumental music. She doesn't seem to know how to fly at all. She wasn't eating hardly at all as the seeds we were giving her seemed to be too big for her to handle although she was drinking a lot of water so today we started hand feeding her with a syringe and Exact baby bird formula and bought smaller seeds for her.

She definitely listens to my voice. She's wonderful and I'm keeping her now no matter what.

Also, I bought a basket and lined it with a towel and she nests in that in her cage.
best, Kathleen & Lullaby


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## TAWhatley

kathleen said:


> She definitely listens to my voice. She's wonderful and I'm keeping her now no matter what.
> 
> Also, I bought a basket and lined it with a towel and she nests in that in her cage.
> best, Kathleen & Lullaby


How wonderful, Kathleen! I'm so glad little Lullaby has stolen your heart .. pigeons have a way of doing that, you know.

It's good that you are giving her supplemental feedings to be sure she is getting enough nutrition. It won't be long before she's able to handle the eating all by herself.

Terry


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## TerriB

kathleen said:


> ...Lullaby right now is sitting in front of the stereo outside her cage listening to music...


I know that pigeons hear a wider range of sounds that humans do. It would be interesting to hear all the additional music she hears!


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## kathleen

*Spitting Up Water*

Hi, Lullaby has been spitting up what appears to be water or is watery. I've never seen a bird do this but my husband who had parrots growing up said this isn't uncommon. Should I be worried?
Thanks, Kathleen


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## Pidgey

Can you describe it in a little more detail? (head motions, behavior, quantity, frequency... )

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Is it clear or color of the Exact? Did you see her actually throw it up?

It could be worms, parasites, infection, crop issues.

Is she doing alot of healthy raisen like poops?


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## kathleen

*throwing up*

It looks clear like water but is a bit more gelatinous. She bobs her head and then it just comes out of her mouth. Her poops are more watery than they were a couple of days ago with a whitish/green pasty quality.


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## kathleen

she also seems to do it when she sees me.


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## Pidgey

Have you looked for an avian vet in your area? It'd be good to get some tests run--a throat swab for a wet-mount looking for trichomonads, a fecal float for parasites and a fecal smear. I'd get right on that. You can check for an avian vet through: www.aav.org/vet-lookup

Pidgey


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## kathleen

thank you, I just called an avian specialist for the earliest appointment I can get although he's booked through tomorrow, they said he'd try to squeeze me in. Now I'm worried.


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## Pidgey

Find clean vials or fresh, sterile plastic baggies and use a sterile Q-Tip or something like that to collect the freshest stool and vomitus samples for when you take Lullaby in. That might speed things up. If you've got plenty of time, you could take pictures and post them here. The urates of the stools (the white part) really should be very white. If you're feeding Exact, they can head towards an off-white but greenish isn't good.

When's the appointment?

Pidgey


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## kathleen

I'm waiting to hear back. He's the avian vet sort of in my area that I can find and he's still about 45 minutes away.


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## Pidgey

Look at the white urates and, at least in your mind, try to isolate the color and put a description to it alone. You may even need to use something to scrape clearer liquids off to the side. What is that color in the most common terms that you can muster?

Pidgey


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## kathleen

they are white and surrounded by a clearer gelantinous liquid, there were a few harder droppings mixed in but not many. Most of the more greenish ones were dried and were from last night after I cleaned her cage in the evening. I tried to feed her this morning but I can't open her beak and hold her at the same time so must wait for my husband to get home. The thing is, the first 4 or 5 days she was eating seeds or at least a few and throwing the rest around. Now she isn't even interested in them, no seeds thrown anywhere but she drinks a lot of water.


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## Pidgey

How much breast muscle does she have on either side of the "keel" (the blade-like bone that runs down the middle of the chest)? Can you pinch the keel between your fingers and it feels like a butter knife or is there enough muscle that you can't get a firm hold on it that way?

Pidgey


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## pigeonmama

Kathleen,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner about getting cats, dogs and birds to cooperate. I'll hold off on that issue until you figure out what's up with Lullaby. Sounds like a real lovely little bird. Hope you can get her in to a vet soon. Let us know.
Daryl


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## kathleen

I can feel the sharp front and edges but can't actually pinch it.


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## Pidgey

Well, that's good because it means the bird have some reserves to work with. I'll tell you that it always raises a warning flag when someone can pick up a pigeon anyhow. If it's a deal of a really young bird, you can kinda' see it and that's what I was hoping it was here from the beginning. BUT, often enough, it means that something's wrong. There are some things that go wrong and then right themselves just like when we get a mild flu, cold, 24-hour stomach bug and stuff like that. And then there are some other more insidious things that they can get that will require intervention. Pigeon-Talk has a thousand such cases.

One of the things that we're more worried about in the short term is a case of canker (not cancer) that's deep down in the GI and is beginning to form an obstruction. The clinical name for it is Trichomoniasis and it's caused by a flagellating protozoa called a trichomonad, usually a strain of Trichomona gallinae for pigeons.

That's not the only thing that it can be but that type of presentation is nothing to mess around with. The usual medication is a Nitroimidazole like Metronidazole (Flagyl), Carnidazole (Spartrix), Ronidazole, Secnidazole... shoot, there's a bunch of 'em. That first one is a medicine for people as well. It is a prescription drug and if you know a pharmacist REAL well you may be able to beg, borrow or steal one. It is also possible to find that stuff in other ways (vets will have them) but that's something that you can start trying to find if your other route falls through or takes too long (a vet's appointment). You might not want to tie up the phone, though, if you're waiting for the vet to get back with you.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

Kathleen, DO make sure you mention that your bird is your PET!

Unfunately, some Vet offices aren't quite as helpful if one just says, "I found a pigeon..."


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## kathleen

is it safe to medicate with one of the medications you described even if that's not the problem? would it make her sick if this isn't what's wrong with her? What would cause her to eat or try to eat ravenously when I first brought her home and then stop eating seeds for the past 2 days or so? When we gave her the baby bird food in the syringe last night she seemed very perky - she is very alert still


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## Skyeking

I am one that doesn't think it is good to medicate without a diagnosis, however, if canker is suspected, I would certainly try a round of the meds, as it is important to stop it as it can be so destructive, and nothing to fool with. 

I wouldn't hesitate at all to give this bird a garlic cap, in case of parasites, or for any type of infection, and a healthy dose of kefir or probiotics to help clear up any yeast or help with crop issue, and digestion. It's beneficial and may put your mind at ease until you get her to the vet.

How thick was the formula you mixed for her? How many poops has she done since last night?


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## Pidgey

Oh, that part's typical enough. Yes, it's safe to treat with those medications even if that's not the problem. At least, insomuch as it's not going to hurt anything although if you were wasting time treating that while something else was going wrong then you'd be in trouble not treating the other.

You might try prying her beak open and seeing if there's a foul odor (pigeons never really have bad breath unless something's wrong) or if you can see anything that looks like curds of cheddar cheese anywhere in the mouth as far down as you can see.

For the moment, though, I was suggesting finding one of those drugs so that you could fast-track it if necessary. Sometimes, the bird is lost just finding the drugs when it becomes obvious that's what's wrong.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

I wouldn't hesitate at all to give this bird a garlic cap, in case of parasites, or for any type of infection, and a healthy dose of kefir or probiotics to help clear up any yeast or help with crop issue, and digestion. It's beneficial and may put your mind at ease until you get her to the vet.

How thick was the formula you mixed for her? How many poops has she done since last night?[/QUOTE]


How do I administer the kefir and the garlic cap? I"m sorry I'm so ignorant about this. I've called and left another message for the vet and they said that he'll call sometime before 7 pm. as he's in surgery all day.

I mixed the formula as it indicated on the bag - 1 teaspoon to 3 teaspoon water. It was rather runny but I didn't want to mess around with any other measurement since I don't know what's best. She's done several runny poops. I still don't understand why she spits up this watery substance (looks like plain water actually), she'll bob her head like she's trying to get something up and then it just spills out of her beak. She's grooming herself right now and is still very attentive when I talk to her. I'm worried that she's starving though and I can't get her at all interested in seeds.


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## Pidgey

One of the things we do (when possible) is to start weighing the birds on a daily basis to monitor how they're doing. If they're slowing losing weight then it's only a matter of time. They will continue to preen until they get REALLY sick and then you know you've got a matter of hours to a very few days.

It'd be more correct to have the mix at 2 parts water to 1 part Exact for that age of bird. If they get too much water, it's going to come out the other end as wet droppings. One of the big differences between birds and us on that score is that water from the kidneys actually flows retrograde (backwards) into what passes for a colon for water reclamation--excess water is absorbed as a conservation issue. When there's just too much for the bird, it'll come out as water in the stool. Youngsters can be confusing because they sometimes just don't have it figured out and will drink and dump too much water in a cycle.

I neither like that she's vomiting up water, nor do I like the word "gelatinous" to describe it with.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Please don't feel inadequate, you are doing fine.

You can mix a little kefir in with the formula. I would just give her a little formula at a time for now. Make sure to allow time for digesting. 

Have you looked down her throat? do you see any kind of yellow or white lesions, anything on the edge of the inside of the beak?

The small gel garlic caps, I administer one down the throat, behind and over the tongue. Push it back as far as it will go gently...and allow the bird to close the beak and swallow.


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## Pidgey

There are other reasons for them to dump a lot of water, though. They can get the "polyuria/polydipsia" complex (PU/PD) due to many different diseases, though, but those typically are involving the kidneys (viral, bacterial, metal toxicity). For water to come out both ends is a bit goofy, though.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

i just got an appointment for noon tomorrow. I will put less water in her feed tonight plus add some kefir. Could this also be due to stress? I can't understand what would make her sick since she was eating fine at first.


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## Pidgey

There are countless times when we get a new rescue that's developing something. It could be nothing, you know, but we see an awful lot of this kind of thing. When they're young (the squeaker age) they're "immunonaive" and they're going to get some childhood illnesses just like we do. It's a rough time. A big difference between us and their world is that more like 80% of their kids die in a year. Think about it--if each pigeon pair has about 8 kids a year and yet the population stays roughly at the same number... A lot of that has to do with childhood illnesses.

While canker, for instance, is a disease pathogen, they usually live with it all their lives. What makes it so deadly sometimes is that the immune response to it might be so severe that it creates a problem. One of our members had a bird that was just energetic as all get out, asking for more and more food and then one day stuff started leaking out of its chest (actually the base of the neck), he took it to the vet, the crop had been destroyed by the canker and the little nestling died within hours after just a few in a lethargic, depressed state. Believe me, they can go downhill quite suddenly and severely and you may not have many clues up to that point.

Let's hope it's nothing, but plan for the commonest childhood killers.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

kathleen said:


> i just got an appointment for noon tomorrow. I will put less water in her feed tonight plus add some kefir. Could this also be due to stress? I can't understand what would make her sick since she was eating fine at first.



Use plain/no sugar kefir with lots of cultures in it. Stress can cause watery poops and digestive issues. Youngsters are stressed easy (stress depletes good gut bacteria), and youngsters have little good gut bacteria as it is, so it is always good to start with replensihing it too, as it can out crowd the bad bacteria.

Good luck at the avian vet, I hope it is nothing major, but half the battle is getting an early diagnosis.

Thank you for doing so much for this sweet bird.


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## Feather

Kathleen,

I have been following your thread, and have been on the emotional plight with you and Lullaby. Good luck today at the vets office. You are doing a wonderful job.

Feather


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## Hillybean

Kathleen,
I'm so glad you decided to keep Lullaby  . It seems she's adapting to pet pigeon life well. 

I'm sorry to read about her being sick. With help from a Vet, experianced PT members and you, she'll be good to go in no time.

Your doing a GREAT job caring for Lullaby!
-hilly


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## kathleen

*Lullaby after Vet*

Thanks so much all of you. Saw the vet and he gave her a dose of pigeon bacteria and a dose of flagyl and more liquid flagyl to give her for the rest of the week. He doesn't have a definite diagnosis but said to try this first, try to get her to eat some solid food - he suggested high quality bread dipped in egg and/or baby food and to put pedialyte or gatorade in her water.

He said she has her flight feathers so she isn't a baby although he said she probably hasn't learned to fly yet and is very young. He says she is malnourished but to keep trying to get her to eat and to keep feeding her the baby bird formula.

As I was leaving the office I met a woman out front who took one look at her and exclaimed, "I've raised pigeons all my life!" and we exchanged numbers. It's so weird that ever since I took Lullaby in I've met all these people (the lady at the pet store we bought her cage from) and you guys who love them. The vet said at first that she looked like a baby King pigeon (and then told me they're raised to be eaten which I really didn't want to hear) but after looking at her he thought she was too small to be that breed and said she's just a regular (whatever that means) pigeon. He also told me there are racing pigeons that sell for $100,000! I was astonished. But you probably all know about that. I'm just learning slowly.

If she doesn't improve, we'll lay out the money for bloodwork but let's hope it doesn't come to that. 
thanks for all the good wishes.
Kathleen and Lullaby


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## kathleen

Thank you Feather. All the good wishes are going to be worth it. I'm not going to give up on her and I think she knows it too.
kathleen


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## Skyeking

Hi Kathleen,

Did he do a fecal on her?

Any tests?

Did he mention anything in regards to her throwing up water?

Did he administer an avian probiotic, is that what you mean by bacteria?

Sorry about all the questions. Bread and egg are not really ideal for pigeons to eat, I would continue with the bird formula, and probiotics/kefir. It will help to get some weight on.


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## TAWhatley

Hi Kathleen,

I'm glad you were able to get Lullaby to the vet. I'm afraid I don't like the idea of bread dipped in egg either. I would definitely keep going with the formula and also try soaked high quality puppy or kitten kibble and some thawed frozen peas and corn.

I don't have a problem with the Flagyl aside from the fact we don't know for sure what we're trying to treat.

I hope Lullaby will respond favorably to the current treatment and be better in short order.

Terry


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## kathleen

yes, avian probiotic - he referred to it as healthy pigeon bacteria. I took q-tip swabs with her feces on it but he said it was too small a sample to test. He said to put wax paper on the floor of her cage so that it isn't absorbed by paper and to bring it in within 8 hours. 

.he looked down her throat and swabbed it and said she has typical parasites for pigeons, that's what the flagyl is for and also in case of canker. The green poop could indicate a number of things, malnourishment for one and worse case, liver failure.

She fluffs up into a snowball which I thought was sweet but he said she does that because she's cold and that she's cold because she's malnourished. Is that your opinion also? He was an avian vet so I figured he knows what he's talking about - as far as the bread goes, I won't give her any then. I did put some pedialyte in her water since she has had diaharrea and has been vomiting. Any other ideas, please let me know.

Also, she definitely doesn't like being in her cage much. Since I've been feeding her, she is getting stronger and she marches right up to the cage door and peeps at me. I open it and she jumps out.


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, you are on such a roller coaster ride with this baby and I want you to know that I will remember her in my prayers. 

I honestly don't know about the bread either. I have never heard of it being used but with him being an avian vet he may know something I don't know. When we have a very young pigeon, whether it is sick or not, or, an adult that is sick and can't eat, we feed it Exact hand feeding formula with Benebac mixed in the formula. This is a probiotic. You can also use plain yogurt. Either put good bacteria back in their systems.

Heat is crucial for a sick bird. To me, providing a warm environment, free of draft, is of tremendous aid in helping them recover. We currently have one of our adult pigeons in our "sick bay" who has been on a heating pad for quite awhile as she recovers from a severe case of worms. Our vet told us to wrap her cage, top and three sides with plastic to help retain warmth. We use a heating pad on the bottom (with a folded towel between the heating pad and the cage) with the heat set on medium. You need to constantly monitor the bottom of the cage to make sure it doesn't get too hot. Most people put theirs on low but I have found that medium works best for us. She has a nest that is filled with shavings that she can sleep in but I have seen her when she was sicker laying directly on the floor of the cage.

You mentioned seeing seed in her poop. Our vet has told us that often means a bacterial infection.

Please keep us posted.


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## TAWhatley

I could see doing good quality bread dipped in water or electrolyte solution, but I'd definitely not use raw egg for the dipping. That doesn't mean I'm real keen on the bread, but can see that this might be OK sans the raw egg. Aside from the egg part, I can buy that the vet did a credible job of advising you how to help Lullaby. Those fresh poop samples might actually tell the whole story without having to go the blood panel route.

Terry


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## Skyeking

Hi Kathleen,

The probiotic will help her put on weight.

As for any bacterial infection, a garlic capsule/Reishi would be excellent for that and Resihi for immune and liver support.

Hopefully it isn't liver failure, as she is still very young without much history.


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## kathleen

*Lullaby New Update*

I just returned from picking Lullaby up at the vet. She was hospitalized for 2 nights after exhibiting neurological problems about 3 days ago. She twisted her neck around, spun and circles was obviously off balance and completely unable to even drink water.

The vet who treated her was not specifically an avian vet. There is only one in our area - about 45 minutes away in Santa Monica and was not in when we decided that she had to go to a vet immediately.

She put on weight at the vet - they fed her with a metal feeding tube but her behavior is the same - in fact, worse. They could not give us a feeding tube and after calling pet stores found they were only available to vets. We found that we could purchase something similar from a vet across town which we will pick up.

The medications prescribed are Ronidizol, .1cc every 24 hrs for 14 days and Baytril, .25 cc every 12 hours for 10 days. My reading indicates specifically the symptoms for salmonellosis; torsion of the neck, spinning, neruological problems. I also found a medication called Amoxicure on line since I returned home. Can anyone tell me if this sounds as though the virus is so far advanced that Lullaby will likely only worsen or if you have experience with this being turned around and the bird completely recovering.

I burst into tears when I saw her try to drink water - upside down. She can't figure out where the objects are that she is trying to aim for because of her balance problem. Also I'm just now noticing that her left eye seems to now be mostly remaining closed. 

I only want the most humane thing for her. We've spent over $600 at the vet and we're not well off, still, if you can tell me that she may definitely recover and lead a full and wonderful life, money is not an object.

If on the other hand, her quality of life will be permanently impaired it will seem the kindest thing for us to put her down. Please give me any and all information you may have on the symptoms I've descibed.

Thank you, Kathleen


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## Pidgey

She wouldn't want to be put down, if possible. As to the illness, it's difficult to say whether you've got a virus (sounds a lot like PMV) which only time can heal (and they usually do) or whether you've got a protozoal or bacterial infection that your medicines will heal. If you do a search on here, you'd find that several others have gone through the same stuff to resolve after a week, two weeks or even as many as six. We always try to give them the chance, though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

There are cheaper means of tube feeding though. This thread tells about techniques and also has links to pictures of some really inexpensive ways of making tube-feeding stuff:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16235

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

This thread will tell you more about Paramyxovirus (PMV), which it may be instead of an infection:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12248

If it's PMV, the medications won't really have any positive effect but you wouldn't know it for quite awhile since you're essentially shooting blind. The symptom of the eye closing may point more to something else, though, like what you've mentioned.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

I absolutely will give her every single chance. I just do not want her to suffer at all. She can't hold her head up and is sleeping now - on her head. I wish she could speak to tell me if it hurts. I do not under any circumstances want her to suffer. I hope to hear more ideas - any ideas are welcome. I'll continue her medication and tube feeding and keep praying it corrects itself.


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## kathleen

Thank you for all your replies -- all very helpful. The feeding information is VERY helpful as the vet assistant showed me how to tube feed very quickly but then had to leave for an emergency and I have been very nervous about not doing it correctly and hurting her. The one good thing about the metal tube they used is that it had a ball on the end so you could feel it in her crop and know you were in the right place. I'll figure it out though. Any other thoughts are still helpful and very encouraging. She absolutely recognized me when she heard my voice today. Started chirping and doing this little flutter with her wings she always does when I speak to her. 
I'll keep you posted.
Best, Kathleen & Lullaby


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, I can only encourage you to continue giving Lullaby supportive treatment. If it is PMV, there is an excellent chance she will greatly improve and possibly be symptom free - but, it will take time. You should also be aware that in some instances the condition can reoccur if the bird is under stress but the episodes are usually short-lived.

The drug combination that you stated is interesting in that several years ago, a vet was helping us with several PMV birds and he believed a combination of Metronidazole and Baytril would help birds with PMV. Metronidazole is similar to Ronidazole in that both treat trichomoniasis. Since then, any bird we get in that has neurological symptoms gets this drug combination and I believe it has helped.

I know you dearly love her and you will find that the little PMV birds are extra special. It will take a lot of work for you to get her past this initial crisis but each little step she makes in improving will seem momentous to you. We worked with a little girl for several months and the day she was able to fly from the kitchen floor to a table brought me to tears.


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## Victor

Oh Kathleen, I just got brought up to the current crisis with your sweet Lullaby. The love and support you give to this pigeon made my eyes well up. You are a remarkable lady for showing such love and care for this bird in distress.


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## kathleen

*Lullaby and the Healer*

Friends,

You may think I'm nuts and I very well may be but a friend of mine here in LA is a Healer. I called her a couple of hours ago and begged for an emergency house call. It's been 45 minutes and although I am a healthy skeptic with a touch of "you never know" I was astonished when my friend called me the room where she was working with Lullaby. She was sitting up normally, her head erect and chirping to beat the band as I know she's hungry.

One never knows. This may not be permanent, she's still with my friend but before this, she couldn't even hold her head erect at all.

Oh boy...whatever it takes, I'll try it.

I'll catch up with you all later tonight or tomorrow.
Kathleen


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## Maggie-NC

I don't think you're nuts. I have goosebumps!


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## TAWhatley

Bless you and your family, Kathleen, for doing so much to help Lullaby. I'd definitely keep up the treatments. If it is PMV, Lullaby has an excellent chance to recover and lead a normal life. 

Here's some places that sell the crop needles:

http://www.kentscientific.com/SearchResults.aspx

http://www.popperandsons.com/pdf/products/Needles-P9.pdf

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/cage_bird/index.html#Crop Needles

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=ELAA06VSB96U9K8X03F3275GF9J1BK58

http://www.birdsupplynh.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=98_100

Terry


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## Pidgey

kathleen said:


> I absolutely will give her every single chance. I just do not want her to suffer at all. She can't hold her head up and is sleeping now - on her head. I wish she could speak to tell me if it hurts. I do not under any circumstances want her to suffer. I hope to hear more ideas - any ideas are welcome. I'll continue her medication and tube feeding and keep praying it corrects itself.


I was never so miserable as when I lay almost dying of some kind of encephalitis in a hospital bed when I was six years old. I vividly remember when they were sticking the needle in my back to get a sample of the spinal fluid (spinal tap) to try and find out how to fight it. It got even worse when the pastor of our church came in with the longest face I'd ever seen on a human up to that point and that was quite an achievement considering that he was naturally round-faced. I was too young to have a label in my mind for "last rites" but somehow the concept came to me.

They later told my mother that this was as sick as a human can get and still survive. I did, but it was very close. Imagine what I would have felt if I'd heard a low muttering in the background... "might not make it... suffering terribly... it would be better if we just... you're doing the right thing... please sign here... " I would have tried to muster every ounce of energy that I had left to simply utter, "please let me try to live--give me a chance!"

When she heard your voice today and started doing her little fluttering, she's trying to tell you that very same thing. I know it in my heart.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Dear Pidgey,

Your story really brought it home. Don't worry, Lullaby is my little love and will have only my positive thoughts from here on in. My concern was her being in pain, which would be unforgiveable to me to let her suffer. Now I believe she will make it through. I had my beloved Ti for 14 years - an Australian Blue Heeler from the NYC pound. I adopted her at 8 weeks and she had distemper. They said she would undoubtedly die. 

That night I didn't sleep at all. I lay with her on a pillow with my hand on her every moment and just loved her. In the morning she woke up and ate. Two days later at the vet he was astonished and called her the miracle puppy. He said medicine couldn't cure her only love could at that point and this from a grumpy old vet that I'd never believe I'd hear those words from. So don't worry, I'll give her my all.
best, kathleen


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## Lin Hansen

Kathleen,

I'm very touched by all your efforts and determination to help Lullaby....she is so lucky to have you in her corner. 

Best wishes for a positive outcome.

Linda


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## kathleen

*Water*

Lullaby started cheeping loudly when I was in another room. I went in and found her head was wet because she had been trying to drink but her head is basically turned around backwards and she dunked the back of her head in the water. She was in distress. I calmed her down and she is now asleep.

Question. If I give her water with a syringe, how much can I give her at a time since she usually drinks by dunking her entire beak I'm not sure what is best. 

I'm dropping her at an avian vet's office tomorrow and he will look at her when he is able as he is a surgeon and only available usually at least a week in advance.

Also as I mentioned before if this is PMV, which it is seeming to be, her left eye is now almost always closed as though she is unable to keep it open. Is this a paralysis of this side of her body? She literally sleeps with her head twisted under her in what seems to be a horribly uncomfortable position.
any help appreciated tonight.
Kathleen


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## TAWhatley

Hi Kathleen,

You can gently "control" Lullaby's head and let her drink on her own with your help. It's fine to give water by syringe also .. probably 1-3 cc's each time.

There may be some paralysis or perhaps more likely inability to control the muscles/nerves on that side of her head. Could also be that this side has rested on the flooring and may be irritated and that is why the eye remains closed. You might want to wash out that eye with saline solution.

I know it is very distressing to watch a pigeon with full blown PMV or paratyphoid symptoms, but I honestly don't think they are in any pain. Obviously, the head and neck twisting makes things difficult for them, but they are very, very tough and resilient birds. Lullaby is probably not nearly as stressed about the situation as you are.

Like several members here, I have had a number of PMV birds that have recovered and have one right now that is in the throes of the symptoms. It is difficult to watch, but I know that my little PMV bird is really pretty happy and content. 

Try to just hang in there and do the best you can. Lullaby will do all the rest, and that will be quite a huge bit.

I'm not sure what you are hoping to find out from the vet visit tomorrow, but I do know that avian vets here in So Cal are hugely expensive. Hopefully you will get a definite diagnosis from this vet visit. 

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kathleen, 

I'm just getting caught up in your thread too. I'm sorry to hear that Lullaby has taken a turn for the worse now with the neurological systems associated with either PMV or maybe E.coli.

I'm wondering if this is a case of what is referred to as "young bird sickness". Lullaby has a lot of the symptoms associated with this disease. Here is a link to information in this topic written by Dr. Marx (DMV). 

http://www.albertaclassic.net/E.coli/sickness.php

I'm sorry you're having such a hard go of this, keep your spirits up and continue offering her good supportive care.


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## kathleen

hi Terry, thank you so much. I did try to control her head for her but she wasn't sucking water and just tried to shake her head after the water bowl. We gave her about 2cc's from the syringe. I was hoping the avian vet could give us a diagnosis but we have already spent over $600 in 2 days and don't have a definitive diagnosis. After reading what you've written here, I've decided to wait for the results of her stool sample. I guess the vet in Santa Monica that I was going to drop her off with will also require more testing but even he said when I described her symptoms, that it sounded like PMV. Rather than stress her further by a long car ride I will keep her home tomorrow. We (my husband Nick as well as myself) are really in love with her. We want to do everything we can. Tonight Nick did the gavage feeding - I was too afraid of hurting her but I'll get over it. Nick is very sure handed and it went fine. Thanks for all the help. Knowing that you have birds in similar circumstances is enormously encouraging.
Kathleen


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## kathleen

Thank you, Brad. I had also read about Young Bird Sickness and I pray that this is not what Lullaby is affected with. I will just continue to monitor and feed her, love and hope.

I know all of you have pigeons. But she is truly. and I'm not exagerating, the sweetest living thing I've ever encountered and I grew up on a farm among animals. Angel doesn't even do her justice.
Please keep sending good thoughts.
Thank you,
Kathleen


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## Feather

Hi Kathleen,

When the little birds, that were given to me, went through the worst of their condition, I braced their heads up with a spongey material and tape. I did this so they would not hit their heads on the floor, or have to sleep upside down. As Terry said you can help them when they are drinking water. 

They all pulled through this. One is flying with my flock, and I clip the wings of one because he would fly backwards and upside down. He has a mate that can fly, and he will run after her. It is so cute, if his mate flys from one place to another, you will always find him right under her ground bound. He does not let her out of his sight.

Phil and Maggie use another method other than crop feeding, that may be easier for you to feed Lullaby. I never learned how to post a link, but hopefully one of these computer savy folks will do that for you.

Good Luck,
Feather


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## TAWhatley

Kathleen,

I think it's very wise to wait for the results of the fecal .. could be that this is paratyphoid (salmonellosis) and not PMV .. if that is the case then a course of Baytril or similar (Cipro) will cure the problem.

I admire you for going to the lengths you have for Lullaby, but let's wait and see what the fecal results are before going to another vet.

There are some wonderful avian vets here in So Cal .. I don't know who you have had Lullaby to or who you were considering for the next vet visit. One of the very best is Dr. Rosskopf in Torrance, also Dr. Nemetz in Santa Ana, and Dr. Weldy here in my town, Lake Forest. There is also a well respected lady vet out in the San Fernando Valley, but her name escapes me right now.
Also Dr. Stoddard in Norco and Dr. Huber in Corona.

Terry


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## kathleen

Hi Feather, thank you for your story about your upside down pigeon. She's standing up this morning, head still tilted but not quite on the floor. I tried to prop her head up with a towel last night but then was worried she might smother in the night. I like your foam idea. 

I'd like to find out what that alternate feeding method is. Hopefully Maggie will read this and let me know. 
Thanks again,
kathleen


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## TerriB

kathleen said:


> ...She's standing up this morning, head still tilted but not quite on the floor...


Seems like she's a real fighter! Good for her!



kathleen said:


> ...I'd like to find out what that alternate feeding method is...
> kathleen


I've used Phil's method - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16432 shows a picture. I know it's mentioned a number of places in the forum if you want specific directions. It's intuitive for the birds, and easy for the people.


----------



## kathleen

TerriB said:


> Seems like she's a real fighter! Good for her!
> 
> 
> 
> I've used Phil's method - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16432 shows a picture. I know it's mentioned a number of places in the forum if you want specific directions. It's intuitive for the birds, and easy for the people.


Hi Terry, This was really informative and I'm going to try it with Lully this afternoon. 
I'll let you know how it goes.
kathleen


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Kathleen

We use a method that, I think, is different from most on the forum but it is how we were trained and has worked well for us for about 14 years.

We use a "Catac" nipple that we attach to a 10 cc. syringe. The nipple goes pretty far back into the bird's mouth but not as far as a gavage tube. We use the 10 cc syringe mainly because it gives us more control over how much we give the bird and allows the bird to rest between feeding/reloading the syringe. We normally feed an adult about 30 cc of formula, 3 x day.

These nipples can be ordered from UPCO and we use the one they show as item #391. One pack of 3 lasts quite awhile as they can be sterilized and reused a number of times before they're replaced. I didn't realize until I just checked the site that these nipples come in three sizes but I think the one we use must be the medium. It is about 1 1/2" in length.

This is the site: http://www.upco.com/cgi-bin/Upcol.storefront/45afbd1600391558ea6dc0a80aa506ec/Home
I tried to link the exact page showing the nipples but it doesn't come up so from their home page just type in "nipples" and "go" and you should see them.

My only concern in using the "cut-off" syringe method is whether Lullaby will have the control to drink from it. We have tried it with some babies and it works but we mainly use the method we familiar with. Kudos to your husband for being fearless with the gavage method. I have never worked up the nerve to do it!

I'm so happy you have had the opportunity to find out how wonderful pigeons are. They are simply the best!


----------



## kathleen

Hi Maggie, The nipple method was a bust with Lully. She didn't even open her beak and I ended up feeding her with the hand syringe but I know she doesn't get as much down this way. When you say "formula" are you referring to Exact, which is what we're still feeding her (mixed with a bit of Kefir, sterile water and some Pedialyte). We give her 15 cc's am and pm as that's what the dr. said will fill her crop. I try to get as much down her in the afternoon as possible before my husband gets home. Are we then underfeeding her? Or are you speaking of a different type of formula?
Thanks, Kathleen


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Kathleen

We use Exact also and to that I add, at least once a feeding, a probiotic called Benebac. It really helps their digestive system. I'm pretty sure it is available at pet stores and I am sold on its effectiveness.

As to the amount, it is hard to determine with my not being around Lullaby. You might try giving her 20 cc per feeding the next time you feed her. Her crop should be plump and feel like a cushion with no hardness. If you have a gram scale it would be very helpful to weigh her first thing each morning before you feed her to make sure she is maintaining a good weight. If her crop has gone down nicely after her morning feeding, give her about 15 cc mid-day and then another 20 cc around 7:00 pm.


----------



## kathleen

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hi Kathleen
> 
> We use a method that, I think, is different from most on the forum but it is how we were trained and has worked well for us for about 14 years.
> 
> We use a "Catac" nipple that we attach to a 10 cc. syringe. The nipple goes pretty far back into the bird's mouth but not as far as a gavage tube. We use the 10 cc syringe mainly because it gives us more control over how much we give the bird and allows the bird to rest between feeding/reloading the syringe. We normally feed an adult about 30 cc of formula, 3 x day.
> 
> These nipples can be ordered from UPCO and we use the one they show as item #391. One pack of 3 lasts quite awhile as they can be sterilized and reused a number of times before they're replaced. I didn't realize until I just checked the site that these nipples come in three sizes but I think the one we use must be the medium. It is about 1 1/2" in length.
> 
> This is the site: http://www.upco.com/cgi-bin/Upcol.storefront/45afbd1600391558ea6dc0a80aa506ec/Home
> I tried to link the exact page showing the nipples but it doesn't come up so from their home page just type in "nipples" and "go" and you should see them.
> 
> My only concern in using the "cut-off" syringe method is whether Lullaby will have the control to drink from it. We have tried it with some babies and it works but we mainly use the method we familiar with. Kudos to your husband for being fearless with the gavage method. I have never worked up the nerve to do it!
> 
> I'm so happy you have had the opportunity to find out how wonderful pigeons are. They are simply the best!


Hi Maggie, I will order the nipples but want to know how to feed with them. Is it the same idea as the gavage (which goes directly into the crop). How can I be sure I'm doing it correctly? This is what makes me so nervous with the tube. Please advise on the correct method and how to hold her when using this method. Thanks so much, 
kathleen


----------



## kathleen

P.S. Maggie,

The site you gave me also has the Bene-Bac so will order that also.


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, this is so funny trying to describe how we do it! Sometimes we just do it by rote unless it is a teeny one.

Well, I put the pigeon on a towel on the kitchen counter, move up close to it and slide the pigeon up against my tummy. I put my left hand around the pigeon to hold it in place, near its head, so I can use that hand to hold the beak open which I open with my right hand. I tilt the pigeon's head back a little and extend the neck just a bit, insert the nipple with my right hand, going from the bird's left with the nipple angled towards the bird's right side, making sure the nipple is past the air hole and push the plunger on the syringe causing about 3 cc of formula to go into the crop, depress plunger again with about 3 cc and then repeat with the rest. All this time, I'm holding the beak open with my left hand. You can have the bowl with the formula next to you so you can easily draw up more if necessary without letting the pigeon fall off the counter. I just don't like to inject the full 10 cc all at once.

Maybe I can get a short video of my husband feeding a dove we are caring for right now to show you. 

LOL It is really hard trying to describe something like this. Whatever method you get used to, will, in a short time, be a piece of cake. Whichever method you use, just take it slow and easy. I know the gavage method is by far the preferred method because you can put all the formula the bird needs in at one time but  I just can't do it.


----------



## kathleen

Thanks for that great description, Maggie. My only problem with Lullaby is that even in this state, she'll fight like a tiger. She HATES the tube feeding - or any type of forced feeding for that matter. She twists her head away as if to say "yech."

Looks like we're going to have to stay with the gravage for now and a lunch of me injecting formula with the syringe (most of which lands on me).

She drank by herself this morning and I was so proud of her. Her balance is very iffy though, had to move her to clean her towels in the cage and she tipped over and struggled to right herself. I'm just hoping she'll figure out how to eat on her own eventually.

Her poops are looking much more normal, still greenish but in a more solid white base - looks like the worst of the diarrea is gone and she no longer vomits at all.

I'm keeping her quiet, letting her sleep most of the time and it seems to be what she needs after being hustled to the vet, put in intensive care, have lots of different people handling her - think it put her over the top. In just the past day and 1/2 she seems much better, holds her head nearly upright.
I'll keep you posted. Thanks so much for all your wonderful thoughts and help.
best, kathleen


----------



## Pidgey

Gotta' admire a fighter--they often do better than most. However, fighting while being gavaged with a hard needle can cause real problems. As such, you may need to burrito the bird (towel) but not so firmly as to compress the ribcage as they can suffocate that way. So, the fun is to hold their necks firmly extended and immobile while having a really light touch with the gavage equipment so that no force will be applied in case they get loose and thrash. You might need three arms and four hands.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Thanks Pidgey. I have to wrap her in a towel - I use a light cotton dish towel. She would be impossible otherwise. I hold her head as steady as possible - because she tries to turn it away as she knows what's coming. My husband does the gavage. He could have been a vet, he's not squeamish and has a very sure hand. This morning for the 1st time he felt it was going right, she was really struggling, but then managed easily. I can't do it but he says you can feel when it's going the right way very easily because there's no resistance. She'll only tolerate about 20cc's before it's just impossible. We put her meds in with her formula. It's injected into the formula syringe with a hypodermic needle that the vet gave us. This is the only way we can manage to get both food and meds down her.

I put a dish of fresh seeds out today and for the 1st time left a bowl of water in her cage. I had been syringing water into her because she couldn't manage to drink out of her bowl (she'd try to drink but end up dunking the back of her head) and I was afraid she might drown.

I have to go out for a few hours today - haven't left her for more than one since she came home. All other animals are 86'd from the bedroom so she has it to herself. I really think the rest, food and quiet are making an enormous difference.


----------



## Pidgey

Whatever you do, don't leave her alone with a bowl of water at hand for the foreseeable future. We've had at least one drowning death from a PMV bird.

Pidgey


----------



## kathleen

ohmigod, thank you Pidgey. I had left her alone this afternoon but just ran in and took that bowl out of her cage. I won't do that again.
Thank you!
kathleen


----------



## kathleen

*Lullaby Better*

Hello to all,

Just thougth I'd drop a line to let everyone know she's doing better. She stands upright now, still staggers like a drunken sailor but holds her head up. She cheeps whenever she sees Nick or I and no longer fights as hard at her feedings. It's like she's gotten used to them.

I do worry about her body temperature. She always fluffs herself up and has been standing on one leg a lot which I was told means she's cold. She's very alert and sleeps less now. Can anyone get back about her body temperature? She's in a warm room and out of drafts. She ate a couple of seeds today when I held her dish up for her and drinks water when I offer it to her although she's awkward doing both of these things.

It seems she holds her head too far back now, almost as though the forward position has shifted to an anterior one, although noticible it's not terribly pronounced. Any thought on that will be appreciated also.
best, Kathleen


----------



## Pidgey

There are other things besides PMV that can cause those symptoms. Seems like PMV usually carries those symptoms for longer than you've been seeing but I'm no expert on that.

Sometimes when they're cold, you can position a heat lamp over them in such a way that they can get out from under it if they need to. That often helps. You need to make sure that you don't burn the house down when you do that, though.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

Does she have the option of being on a heating pad, Kathleen?


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## kathleen

Pidgey said:


> There are other things besides PMV that can cause those symptoms. Seems like PMV usually carries those symptoms for longer than you've been seeing but I'm no expert on that.
> 
> Sometimes when they're cold, you can position a heat lamp over them in such a way that they can get out from under it if they need to. That often helps. You need to make sure that you don't burn the house down when you do that, though.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,

I still haven't gotten the results from her test at the vet and will call them on monday. What other things do you think it might be? She's still very PMVish but has improved. Her head now instead of being twisted under her is almost arching backward. She just peeped and we went in and it seemed almost as if she were having a fit. I calmed her down and she tried to eat some seeds. She's been much more awake and has been cheeping every three hours or so for us to come and look at her or almost as if she's been freaked out by something...I hope she's not in pain. Any ideas?


----------



## kathleen

mr squeaks said:


> Does she have the option of being on a heating pad, Kathleen?


Yes, she has a heating pad. We don't have it on right now because it's quite warm in the bedroom plus her cage is covered unless she's peeping.

Could she also be sick of being shut up in that cage? it's been over a week and although she's still all twisted up, she seems much more alert.


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## Pidgey

Well, pigeons are pretty social. When they're squeakers, they prefer to be with someone all the time. Our first bird would try to sleep on the bed with us every night--she was as bad as a kid.

Anyhow, you might try keeping her near you as much as you can.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kathleen, 

I'm happy to read that Lullaby's condition has improved, even slightly I think you're doing a great job caring for her and hopefully she will continue to improve with good supportive care.

One of the other things that can cause these neurological symptoms are bacterial infections that have permeated the blood such as paratyphoid or an E.coli infection. I'm glad you'll be getting the results from the tests on Monday.

Just to let you know that standing on one foot is very normal for a pigeon, this is often how they sleep and roost. The fluffing out though does indicate them being chilled and when not feeling 100%.

Wishing you further baby steps on the road to healing for your dear pigeon.


----------



## kathleen

*A Lullaby Update*

I've been combing through the threads here for any and all information for Lullaby. The good news is that she's put on weight, she's not fluffing up all the time anymore, she no longer stargazes and she's very very alert.

She peeps like a maniac when she sees me, obviously associating me with food. She also peeps at my husband who handles the gavage feeding (while I hold her). Last evening when he got home she went insane, poking her beak through the bars of her cage and practically screaming to be fed. We fed her posthaste.

The past three nights we've been giving her some out of cage time, around 20 minutes the first night, 30 the second and 45 or so last night. The first time she was obviously freaked out and spent most of the time staring at the ceiling and walls. I guess she wondered what this weird skyless world was. She's been flapping her wings (which are incredibly beautiful) but not getting any lift. Last night she ran straight over to me and started poking me with her beak and cheeping like an air raid siren. She seemed much more comfortable out of the cage and marched around the living room as though inspecting it. She did not want to go back into her cage. 

Today's question is, when she drinks water, she throws her head back, way back as though she's having trouble swallowing. Is this a symptom of PMV or could the gavage tube be aggravating her throat?

And there's a second today question. She does not and will not eat any seeds. She pecks but it seems to be merely instinctual, misses the seeds and even if she does hit one, doesn't open her beak for it. Does this mean she doesn't understand how the seed eating process works?

We of course will continue feeding her, for life, if we have to, but could she be getting totally reliant on us feeding her rather than her feeding herself?

Thanks in advance for any help you may have.
best, Kathleen and Lullaby (aka Lullypop, Lullywiggle, Lullydoll)


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## Pidgey

Squeakers are that way. Not about the water--the seed eating. There are some who get it at an early age and there are others (often spoiled ones) who take quite awhile to learn how to eat seeds. It will happen someday, sooner or later, never fear. Sometimes they don't learn until they've gone hungry for a few days. They usually lose weight during weaning, seems like the typical number is 10%.

I've seen them put their head back after drinking but no knowing why, especially with a bird who has suffered neurological problems. It might not be PMV with symptoms of such short duration, by the way, but we're never going to know. Just be happy she's doing pretty good (and I know you are!).

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Hi Pidgey,

She is no doubt getting very spoiled but I can't help it. She's just adorable. I'm so glad she's doing better but in the back of my mind I'm always afraid that she'll have a relapse. She still spins in circles but it seems it's mostly when she's stressed. She'll walk backward or into things and other times she seems almost normal. I'd like to post some pics we took of her but if I do it here the resolution is so small that you can't really see. Can you or anyone recommend a good free hosting site? I tried a couple but got a lot of annoying popups. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. This is the first forum I've ever joined.
Thanks, Kathleen


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## Pidgey

Well, it's the best doggone forum on the planet, too!

You can actually post some pretty good photos on here--they just have to be 100 KB or less. I'll tell you that early on in this one, I thought we were going to end up with a disaster but you got right on it and it's turning out okay. The day ain't over yet, but I'm not suffering anxiety like in the beginning.

There are other stories on here that have been... gripping... like this one:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16607

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*lullaby now*

Wow, Pidgey, just read the story of Petunia. Amazing. Just mind-boggling. And here I'm scared to feed Lullaby with the tube. What a beautiful and inspiring story.

I'll post pictures of the Lully baby later tonight. I, too, must now feed the humans in the home. You are simply amazing. I never could have gotten her to this point without all your and everyone else here's help.

You're right, she's not out of the woods yet, but she's getting near the edge of the forest. I just feel it.
best, Kathleen


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## Pidgey

Whenever I'm feeling down, I can go lookin' for the picture of Petunia in the bubble bath and it always helps. As bad off as Petunia was, though, Lullaby actually scared us more. 

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> I'm so glad she's doing better but in the back of my mind I'm always afraid that she'll have a relapse. She still spins in circles but it seems it's mostly when she's stressed. She'll walk backward or into things and other times she seems almost normal. I'd like to post some pics we took of her but if I do it here the resolution is so small that you can't really see. *Can you or anyone recommend a good free hosting site? * I tried a couple but got a lot of annoying pop ups. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. This is the first forum I've ever joined.
> Thanks, Kathleen


Hi Kathleen, 

I'm glad to read that Lullaby is showing slow signs of improvement, I think you and your husband are doing wonderfully with caring for her and making her comfortable. 

You could try www.photobucket.com or www.photoshots.com. I prefer photobucket because it's easier to link the pictures here in the forum with their quick links. I think they probably have pop ups too, as most free hosting websites do but I have pop up blockers so I don't see them much.


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## kathleen

*Some Pictures*

Here she is including a picture with her weird backward head contortion that she does on and off.


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Here she is *including a picture with her weird backward head contortion that she does on and off*.


Hi Kathleen, 

She's beautiful, and such a lovely wing flex shot Which of the 3 pictures are you referring to, that she's doing the backward head thing?


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## kathleen

*Attitude*

Hello all,

Hope the pictures of Lullaby made it. Tonight on her out of the cage break, she was a total little monster. She ran up to me and pecked my feet, my husband's face and hands and acted like a complete dictator. If she is in fact a "she" we wondered if she might be an incarnation of Catherine of Russia or alternately if male, Napoleon. She HATED being put back in her cage and tried to stab me when I closed the door with her beak. Is this normal? Do they act like brats and go through an period of adolescent ingratitude?

Or, alternatively, might she be very stressed and just hate us?

But she is beautiful and definitely feeling better.
Kathleen


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## kathleen

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Kathleen,
> 
> She's beautiful, and such a lovely wing flex shot Which of the 3 pictures are you referring to, that she's doing the backward head thing?


Hi Brad, 

The second picture. She'll flex her head backward in what can't be a normal position. It's almost the opposite of the forward "stargazing" position.


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> The second picture. She'll flex her head backward in what can't be a normal position. It's almost the opposite of the forward "stargazing" position.


Hi Kathleen, 

I know it's only a still picture, but to me, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with her head in picture #2. This to me, is the normal position a pigeon takes when they are preening under their wings.


----------



## kathleen

Hi Brad again,

Yes, I know in this picture it does look like that. Here's another photo that I think shows more clearly what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kathleen, 

Yes, this last photo you posted shows the head in an un-natural position for sure. The other photo though, looks completely normal however. I just hope you're not confusing normal preening behind and under the wings with PMV related head seizures.


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## kathleen

No, this isn't a preening thing. She holds her head like this and walks backwards into things as though she can't hold her head properly, as though it's stuck like that. It usually doesn't last too long and it seems to occur mostly when she's stressed, moving in and out of her cage, for instance.

When she preens, her head is held normally. This odd head movement does seem to be a seizure. Has anyone else witnessed this backward position - as though her head has been forced backward and stays that way for minutes at a time.
thanks, Kathleen


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> No, this isn't a preening thing. She holds her head like this and walks backwards into things as though she can't hold her head properly, as though it's stuck like that.
> 
> *When she preens, her head is held normally.* This odd head movement does seem to be a seizure. Has anyone else witnessed this backward position - as though her head has been forced backward and stays that way for minutes at a time.
> thanks, Kathleen


Hi Kathleen, 

Yes and like I mentioned, I can only go by what I see in a still photograph. In photo#2 that you posted, this looks completely normal from my standpoint and like she is preening behind her wings. Pigeons do twist their heads right around and backwards when they preen this way but they don't get stuck like that.

I was just hoping and trying to suggest that perhaps when you saw this preening behaviour that you weren't thinking that these were even more seizures on top of what you were already seeing.

Can you take videos at all with your camera?


----------



## kathleen

My husband just suggested that it seems more like a nervous tic. But to me a tic implies movement. This is like having your head screwed on backwards for minutes at at time. We will try to take a video and post that. Other than this, she seems much better, has a great appetite and as I said in an earlier post, she's developing into a little hellion. Thanks again for all your help. We'll try to get a video next time she's out of the cage. 
Best, Kathleen


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Tonight on her out of the cage break, she was a total little monster. She ran up to me and pecked my feet, my husband's face and hands and acted like a complete dictator. She HATED being put back in her cage and tried to stab me when I closed the door with her beak. Is this normal? *Do they act like brats and go through an period of adolescent ingratitude?*





kathleen said:


> We will try to take a video and post that. Other than this, she seems much better, has a great appetite and as I said in an earlier post, she's developing into a little hellion. Kathleen



Kathleen, lol....yes, they do go through periods of being rather bossy and ornery!  They are also very protective of the areas/places that they consider their home and roost. The cage (for now) represents Lullaby's home and roost and she is protecting her turf.  She doesn't hate you at all.

Yes, please do post some videos of her when you can and specifically of the seizures and behaviours related to her condition.

I think that she will continue to improve further in time and with the good care you're providing.


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## GimpieLover

i didn't read everything and im not sure exactly whats going on, but i just saw rescue and Los Angeles area. if any help is needed im close and willing to help


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## Pidgey

GimpieLover said:


> i didn't read everything and im not sure exactly whats going on, but i just saw rescue and Los Angeles area. if any help is needed im close and willing to help


Well, I guess you need to read the whole thread, Gimp. The short story is these poor folks rescued an ailing squeaker that didn't immediately show its problem, had to have expensive emergency medical treatment, is getting better, and now... the family needs rescuing from the little tyrant. 

Can you rescue the family?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Kathleen,

You are not alone. There are support groups for abused families (namely "us") and one of the nearest stories to how little "Lullaby" is turning out is the story of... The Dinkster:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13269

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Well, I think we should start a whole new thread in regards to:

Pigeons and their abused families...people....uh....pets.


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## mr squeaks

Squeaks is right up there with the best of 'em! He can beak the livin' daylights out of me when I put him home. I really need to remember to put his food dish in FIRST!

I tell him that he should not treat his mate like that! He replies with another beak strike, along with a growl! My reminder that the hand he's attacking ALSO feeds him, gets me a "laugh" (pigeons DO laugh!) and another beak strike with a wing-fu smack!

Ungrateful bird! *SIGH*


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## Feather

I can relate! I am beat and laughed at too.  

Feather


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## kathleen

*Tales of Terror*

Hi,

Just read the "Dinkster" thread that Pidgey sent - the whole thing. What a story! The more I read on this site the more I'm amazed. Now, I have 4 cats and 2 dogs staring at me because they still haven't had their breakfast (Lullaby the spoiled monster ate at 7:30 this morning and is currently sleeping contentedly with a full crop). These guys have been neglected since she came into our lives.

So, must feed the rest but will be back later this evening with a video of Lully. I'm beginning to think "she" is a "he." Although I know it isn't fair to insinuate that males are more obnoxious than females, however....

best, Kathleen


----------



## AZfiddler_1996

kathleen said:


> Here she is...


 Lully's a cutie and such a sweet looking bird.  

I'm so glad she's getting better and over her stargazing. It's so hard to watch them stargaze...


----------



## Aias

*another photo host option*



kathleen said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> .... Can you or anyone recommend a good free hosting site? I tried a couple but got a lot of annoying popups. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. This is the first forum I've ever joined.
> Thanks, Kathleen


hi kathleen, i use flickr and i think it is the best around, no ads, no pop-ups and it allows the user many options for the size and resolution of the photos:

http://www.flickr.com/


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## kathleen

Thank you! I'll try it.


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## kathleen

*Breathing*

This afternoon I noticed that Lully is breathing rather heavy. I hadn't noticed this before. There is no discharge around her beak, her eyes are clear but she throws her head back when she drinks water and also did the same today when I syringe fed her a bit at a time, as though its difficult for her to swallow. She's still on her meds (Flagyl and ronidizol). My husband thought perhaps the feeding tube might be irritating her throat but that wouldn't have anything to do with her breathing.

Any ideas? 

On a more upbeat note, today when I was feeding her she climbed up onto my lap for the first time and snuggled. Wow. That was amazing. Those trusting little eyes. I could feel her little wings barely fluttering next to me as I cooed to her.
K & L


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## Pidgey

What would she be doing on both Metronidazole and Ronidazole? Those are almost, but not quite, the same thing. You wouldn't be giving them together, though. Just out of curiosity, could you post all medications that she's taking with something about the formulation & dosing for each?

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Hi Pidgey,

These are what the vet prescribed (bear in mine we STILL don't have results of her fecal culture - I call every day and they say it's inconclusive but that nothing is growing so far). She gets Rondizol 1 cc every 24 hrs and Baytril (sorry, it's not Flagyl, I'm retarded, just read the label now, Nick doses her) .25 cc every 12 hours. The rondiziol is like Flagy isn't it? We've about given up on these vets (the ones we paid the fortune to). By the time they got around to giving us results it could be a post mortem. We're just trying to do everything we can ourselves with your help at this point.
thanks as usual,
Kathleen


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## Pidgey

Can you tell anything about the concentrations of those drugs from the bottles (whatever)? Drugs like Baytril come in quite a variety of formulations like the 2.27%, 5%, 10%, etc. We'd really like to know what you've got so that we can tell for sure. We've seen vets give the wrong amounts before so it never hurts to review. If you have to call them up to get the info, then go right ahead.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

There's no percentage on the bottles. I'm calling the vet right now.


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## Lovebirds

Kathleen...haven't posted any on this thread because I didn't really have any advice to give. Although I've got over 100 pigeons, I haven't ever had to deal with most of the sicknesses that are seen and reported here, so I pretty much stay out of the "need help, sick pigeon" threads. LOL
I just wanted to say that I HAVE been following it and am very proud of the care that you and your husband are showing this bird.
I got a little tickled at the post about Lully biting at your feet. That was cute.
Anyway, keep up the good work. There are lots of us following your story, even though we might not "say" very much.


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## kathleen

Baytril 2.5% and Rondizol 30 per ml - crushed 5 tabs mixed with distilled water was all she could tell me - this was a tech who was very helpful. Turns out they got the fecal results 3 days ago but no one bothered to tell us (even though I called yesterday). She pulled the chart and told me that there was no bacterial infections, including salmonella but the fungal culture is still pending. She said the breathing might be a result of fungus in the crop but that the ronidizol is an antifungal. Also said that the tube could be irritating her trachea. We just recently started coating it with olive oil, had only used water previously.


----------



## kathleen

Thank you, Renee. Hope you don't have to go through this but even if you do it just makes you love them even more. She is so much better but now the breathing thing has me worried. Going to wait to hear what Pidgey has to say about it.

She cuddled with me today!


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## Pidgey

The Baytril is working out to 6.25 milligrams per dose which should be right for the bird (do you know what Lullaby weighs?). But I can't make heads or tails out of that Ronidazole thing. I guess we ought to know what size the tabs are, huh? Can you call them and find that out?

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*dosage*

Pidgey,

Called but the nice tech is gone for the day and the vet is in surgery. Supppsed to call back but that might mean tomorrow...or never.

I'll type what's on the label if it does any good (still doesn't say what size tabs however):

Quantity: 5 - 30 mg. #5 in 5cc water

I'm going to pretend that you can somehow make sense of this even though it's impossible and hope they call back. If not I'll call back in the a.m.


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## kathleen

Pidgey,
Forgot to mention that we don't have a scale to weigh her but we know she's definitely put on weight. She looks almost fat and her breastbone isn't sharp as a kniife anymore, can feel muscle by it now. She's kind of butterbally compared to how she was 3 weeks ago.


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## Pidgey

Well, Kathleen, could you please describe in more detail what you mean by you think she's breathing harder? Do me a favor and time her to see how many breaths she's taking in a minute. Also, if you could say whether she's wheezing or breathing open-mouthed, or whatever makes you think she's breathing too hard...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Hmm... it looks like you're saying that it's a quantity of 5 tablets, each weighing in at 30 milligrams of medicine, crushed and dissolved in 5 milliliters of water, and dosed at 1 milliliter per day (a milliliter and a "cc" are the same thing). Shoot, you might just as well be giving the bird the tablets once a day doing that. I'll have to look Ronidazole up at home, but with Metronidazole, it's 10 to 30 milligrams per kilogram of bird by mouth twice a day (written: 10-30mg/kg, PO, BID) or 20 to 50 milligrams per kilogram of bird by mouth once daily (written: 20-50mg/kg, PO, BID).

So, it seems to me that you might be in slight overdose territory. That's why I need to get home and check the formulary. Can you compare the weight of your butterball bird with the weight of a styrofoam cup of water and try to get close (just try to find out how much water she's equal to in weight)?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Oh, you're still tube-feeding her, aren'tcha'? You know, they can get overfed, just like us--especially when they don't have a choice.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Well, if that's correct about the Ronidazole, then we are in overdose country. At this reading, don't give any more of it. What I see in the formulary is numbers ranging from 5 to 12.5 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day for pigeons. That would mean that if we assume that Lullaby is a 350 gram bird, the total dose per day would be only 1.75 to 4.375 milligrams of pure medicine.

Just out of curiosity, when did you start the Ronidazole treatment and how long did you continue it or are you still continuing it? The reason why I'm asking is that the side effects in overdose are neurological.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

All that based on this post:



kathleen said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> These are what the vet prescribed (bear in mine we STILL don't have results of her fecal culture - I call every day and they say it's inconclusive but that nothing is growing so far). She gets *Rondizol 1 cc every 24 hrs *and Baytril (sorry, it's not Flagyl, I'm retarded, just read the label now, Nick doses her) .25 cc every 12 hours. The rondiziol is like Flagy isn't it? We've about given up on these vets (the ones we paid the fortune to). By the time they got around to giving us results it could be a post mortem. We're just trying to do everything we can ourselves with your help at this point.
> thanks as usual,
> Kathleen


But earlier in the entire thread, I found this:



kathleen said:


> She put on weight at the vet - they fed her with a metal feeding tube but her behavior is the same - in fact, worse. They could not give us a feeding tube and after calling pet stores found they were only available to vets. We found that we could purchase something similar from a vet across town which we will pick up.
> 
> The medications prescribed are *Ronidizol, .1cc every 24 hrs *for 14 days and Baytril, .25 cc every 12 hours for 10 days. My reading indicates specifically the symptoms for salmonellosis; torsion of the neck, spinning, neruological problems. I also found a medication called Amoxicure on line since I returned home. Can anyone tell me if this sounds as though the virus is so far advanced that Lullaby will likely only worsen or if you have experience with this being turned around and the bird completely recovering.


Well, that's better! I was going through the whole thread to find stuff out and I see this. That makes a lot more sense. When you're dealing with drugs, be very careful how you spell things and note the dosages. By the way, Kathleen--you're giving her the 0.1 cc (1/10th of a milliliter or 3 milligrams per day for the bird) dose, right? I've been stewing all night over this...

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Hi Pidgey, I had to go out. Sorry. It is Ronizidol. She's been on it since 1/17 every 24 hours until last night. We didn't dose her with it tonight, just the Baytril. This was before I even read your post about possible problems.

She was out of the cage tonight, totally loved it, totally chased me around (food source). As to the breathing, she doesn't pant, no opened beak breathing, I just can hear her breathing sometimes and I never noticed it before. I wouldn't think it was normal for me to hear her breathing. Perhaps it is, but why didn't I hear it before then? 

I just peeked at her in her cage. She laying down on her towel, not standing. She looks very content but I've only seen her lay down a couple of times. Once again, is this normal? As to the medication, we're supposed to continue the ronidizol until 1/31 but now I'm leery. 

Let me have your thoughts when you have a chance.

always grateful, k and l


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## kathleen

Pidgey,once again I left something out that you asked. Yes, .1 cc every 24 hrs up until tonight when we stopped. Should we continue?


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## Pidgey

Well, are you giving her just 0.1 cc's per day? That's an okay amount. But 1 cc would be too much if I read all that aright.

As to hearing her breathing, is it a wheezing sound? Or is it just terribly quiet in your house sometimes?

Squeakers love to lay down, especially kinda' propped over on one wing. If you let them, they'll sleep on the bed with you.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Kathleen,

Baby pigeons can and do make kind of a "vibrating" sound when they are excited because you are near and/or feeding them. I think that is probably what Lully is doing .. but it's always good to pay real close attention and be sure there isn't a problem.

Please do confirm to Uncle Pidgey that you are only giving *0.1 cc* .. if you don't, he will be up all night and worrying  And, do continue with that dose.

I think all is well ..

Terry


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## kathleen

*awake in middle of night*

Dear Pidgey,

It's about 3:30 in the morning. I woke up as I sometimes do and heard her moving around (her cage is in our bedroom). Maybe she shuffles around in the middle of the night all the time but I heard her softly peep, so I got up to give her some water, which she drank. When she drinks, as I mentioned before, she throws her head way back. I call this the Headless Pidgeon Pose. If you had a frozen chicken from the store and stood it on its drumsticks she looks the same from the front when she's doing this (except she has her feet, of course). It seems she has trouble swallowing. Before she got sick she didn't do this.

i went back to bed, heard her moving around again and once again I can hear her breathing when I stand by her cage. It seems loud to me but it's not wheezing. It's just breathing.

As far as the medication, we only gave her the Baytril tonight of which her last dose is supposed to be today (started 1/17 for 10 days). The ronidizol
(.1 cc) is every 24 hrs for 14 days which we also began on 1/17). She's dosed with both medication by injecting them from a hypodermic needle (with the measurements in .s on it into her feeding syringe to make sure she gets them down. Nick always prepares her meds and he's very exact.

I'm going to try to go back to sleep now but will do the syrofoam cup weight measurement tomorrow.
night for now,
k


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## Pidgey

Well, let's try feeling down her neck starting from her head and see if you feel any lumps. Pigeons' necks should always feel a bit like the stems of flowers (insubstantial). It's quite deceiving because of the flowers. Personally, it sounds more like a neurological thing. You might try giving her some water once that's nearer to her body temperature (which is about 107) and see how that goes. It would seem like either the sensation of swallowing or the act of swallowing is putting her into some kind of small seizure.

But that's a different thing from respiratory deal. Usually, the only thing that makes breathing audible is a tight place in the airway. Wheezing would come from the bronchial pathways (you don't have a stethoscope, do you?) and the kind of sound you may be describing would be more likely to come from between the ceres (nostrils) and the choana (cleft inside the upper beak--it's all pretty similar to us, really). I suppose if her nose were blocked, she'd open her mouth and breath that way in necessary although pigeon lips don't make the seal that they do on us anyhow. You might be hearing sipping air that way.

As to "you've been peeping in your sleep", our Pidgey occasionally did that when she was in the house at that age.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Good morning Dr. Pidgey,

Felt her neck (what there is of it, she's kind of a no neck monster) and it feels fine to my fingers with the exception of some gummy left over formula on her feathers...she's filthy and I'd like to bathe her but am worried that might freak her out before she's entirely well.

As to the breathing which she just did when I was feeling her, it's coming from her nostrils (ceres) it seems to me and is exacerbated when she's chirping at me, which is constantly when she sees me. However, I do her it when she quiets down too but not all the time, sometimes I can't hear it at all.

If she's softly peeping just once in a while at night, do you think perhaps she's dreaming? If so, I'm sure it's of food. My brain is scarcely functional this a.m. and have guest coming over this afternoon but I'm going to clean her cage this morning and disinfect it in case she's developed some sort of allergy. I haven't washed it out since she came home, just replaced papers and towels for her because I didn't want her to be upset. Any further advise gladly welcomed by us both. Oh and no, don't have a stethoscope. We're not very medically prepared here and must rectify that soon.
k and l


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## Pidgey

Well, I missed that reply because I was in the middle of a long list of honey-do's. She brought the list in a roll, holding the top of the list and letting the roll drop for emphasis and... roll.

And roll.

And roll.

Fortunately, the door was open so that it could continue down the street. Even more fortunately, a street sweeper came by and sucked up the better part of a mile of the stuff and her memory's not the best.

Anyhow, Lullaby might just be talking to you and being generally vocal. Sometimes they do that, just like us. They're not quite as good as some dogs at sounding absolutely pitiful when there's not a doggone thing wrong with them but you get the occasional virtuoso. I'm not saying it's nothing--you'll want to keep an eye (and ear) on her--but it doesn't sound quite like the upper respiratory symptoms that we sometimes see which can be quite severe to the point of being fatal.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*Oh the Poor Little Thing*

They're not quite as good as some dogs at sounding absolutely pitiful when there's not a doggone thing wrong with them but you get the occasional virtuoso. I'm not saying it's nothing--you'll want to keep an eye (and ear) on her--but it doesn't sound quite like the upper respiratory symptoms that we sometimes see which can be quite severe to the point of being fatal.

Pidgey[/QUOTE]


Hi Pidgey,

Well, you've had your work cut and so have I...running away from this little monster. No, she's not sick and the breathing? I think it's just heavy breathing because she gets excited. Now she chases my husband around the living room - she recognizes him as the actual food source. Me, on the other hand, who saved her, raised her, kissed and put her to bed each night, me she basically will pay attention to ONLY if Nick is not available.

How ungrateful is that? 
best, Kathleen and the rotten little bird


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, your description is so cute. All I can say is just enjoy all of her activities. We have a fledgling/adult that we're wintering over (named Jimmy) who was hell on wheels for the first week or so that we got him but calmed down to be one of the best pigeons you could ask for. My husband fed him from a young squab but I am around him most of the time so he really has no favorite person. He comes to either of us. I think as Lullaby grows she'll do the same thing. What we are noticing lately is Jimmy prances and spreads his wings for my husband but not me. We're beginning to think we'll have to rename "her" Jimmee.


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## Pidgey

Well, Kathleen, you gotta' know that in their normal lives, the mother takes care of them the most up til about three weeks when it starts to shift to Daddy. For the last weeks to weaning, Daddy does almost if not all of the feeding. It's especially pitiful to see a spoiled-beyond-repair preenager screaming to other males in the loft until they feed it, too. They can be insistent to the point of driving a perfect stranger to the point of giving them a meal to shut them up. They'll even do that when they're already eating grain on their own. Shameless. Absolutely shameless.

Speaking on behalf of everyone here on Pigeon-Talk, I guess we're sorry that we didn't tell you about this possible behavior up front. You've been victimized. The only solution is to enjoy it and keep telling us about it so that we can both laugh at and with you.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*Lullaby congested*

Good morning and help please,

This morning when I woke Lullaby up it seemed she had trouble actually waking up - which she never does. I turn on the light for her morning feeding and she cheeps like a maniac. This morning after she opened her eyes I could hear that she was congested, just like a kid with a bad chest cold, she couldn't even peep, like she was hoarse. She finally did peep a little bit but it was labored. We fed her and I put her back in her cage to sleep,.

What could this? She seemed fine last night, full of energy and happy. This seems to have come on overnight.

She's done with her round of meds. The only new thing she's been given was Bene-bac in her syringe last night and 2 nights ago. Prior to that she only had kefir in her formula. She's back asleep and I can tell she doesn't feel well.

Any thoughts?
thank you, kahtleen


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Good morning and help please,
> 
> *This morning when I woke Lullaby up it seemed she had trouble actually waking up - which she never does.* I turn on the light for her morning feeding and she cheeps like a maniac. *This morning after she opened her eyes I could hear that she was congested, just like a kid with a bad chest cold, she couldn't even peep, like she was hoarse. She finally did peep a little bit but it was labored. *


Hi Kathleen, 

Although I'm not certain why or what it means that you had difficulty getting Lullaby to wake up, the sounds you are talking about in her voice might suggest she's getting her "cooing" voice. There is a transition period of when their "peeps" go to "coos" and other adults sounds. This is normal and some of the sounds during this time can be very odd sounding.


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## kathleen

Really Brad? I mean it sounds like she really has a chest cold, even my husband thought it sounded very strange. Would this change possibly make her tired? Weird? I just can't figure out how she could go from happy/healthy pigeon of last night to sick pigeon with a terrible cold overnight. I hope or I hope that's what it is. She's asleep now...maybe she's a he as I've been mentioning. I'll keep a serious eye on her all day.


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## Pidgey

Count the breaths per minute by the rise-and-fall of her back. Are there any rasping sounds when she's breathing? Cradle her in your hands and get her beak right up next to your ear and listen for crackling sounds and stuff like that. 

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Brad, I just went to look at her. She's fluffed up but I don't hear her breathing. I heard it only when I woke her up to feed her and she tried to peep.


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## Pidgey

When pigeons get upper respiratory things, it's not good. We often switch to a Tetracycline in cases like that, Doxycycline being one of the best. You're probably going to need a vet for that one.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Really Brad? I mean it sounds like she really has a chest cold, even my husband thought it sounded very strange. * Would this change possibly make her tired? *Weird? I just can't figure out how she could go from happy/healthy pigeon of last night to sick pigeon with a terrible cold overnight. I hope or I hope that's what it is. She's asleep now...maybe she's a he as I've been mentioning. I'll keep a serious eye on her all day.


I'm really not certain why you had a hard time getting her awake this morning. I don't think this is related to the possible voice change going on. But yes, when their voices change, they can sound like a goose honking or half squeak/half coo that sounds like asthma/bronchitis almost. The voice change sounds are normal though and it's nothing to worry about. The fact that you trouble waking her,* is* a little worrying and odd


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## Pidgey

Yeah, I don't like the sound of it, either. That's why I want her to count the breaths and listen real close. Respiratory problems are more insidious in birds, as you well know, Brad.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*breathing*

Pidgey and Brad,

I just went in and stood by her cage. She was sound asleep and I couldn't hear her breathing at all. I woke her up and she did her little wing thing that she does to say hello, feed me, and then tried to cheep but couldn't. It did sound like some sort of bronchitis when she tried cheeping.

But there is no sound of labored breathing when she is either asleep or doesn't know I'm around. Could the "heavy breathing" I talked about last week have been a precursor? I'm a complete worry wort with her but somehow I'm thinking Brad might be right. Her fecal panel indicated no bacterial infections, she's been on meds for over 14 days. She eats (by hand) like a pig. I can't imagine how she could have gotten sick again.


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## Lovebirds

I don't mean to butt in here........but it does sound like Lully is going through the voice change stage........I remember the first baby I heard making these noises........I was sure he was sick, but then I heard another one make the same noise and then another one..........it was our first year raising babies,...that's when I figured out what was happening...In a couple of days, they figure out that they can coo instead of squeak and honk.....LOL. I would certainly keep an eye on her, which I know you are doing anyway, but I believe she'll be all right. At least I HOPE so............


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## Pidgey

Oh, there's ways. Listen, this is a tough time, what with childhood diseases and how the body can be "immuno-naive". That just means that all kinds of things can happen when they're young. It's one of those things where you watch very closely for abnormal behavior because there are some things that can happen very quickly. So, worry worting is... necessary. Count the breaths (should be about 30 per minute when they're not exerting themselves) and listen extremely closely for unusual sounds.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

*breaths*

breathing appears fairly normal. I used my husband's watch with a second hand and it does appear to be around 30 or so and there is no sound. When she woke up as I was trying to time her a second time, she got out one hoarse peep, a scratchy squeak and then these horrible sounding things like the raspy hoarse breathing. I felt so bad for her/him.

Another question. In the past 2 nights when she's been out of her cage for "playtime" when she sees my husband she runs up to him and slaps his feet with her wing. She flutters her wings at me but slaps his feet and tries to bite his toes.


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## Pidgey

Well, they sometimes have a difficult time figuring out exactly what we are, you know. It's never been ascertained whether they understand that our hands and feet are actually parts of us. Just think about it--our outer feathers are always changing color and pattern, we're so much bigger...

If the rasping is a rattle like bronchitis, then we've got problems. If it's actually the changing of the voice then obviously not. If the bird's behaving like he or she always does, then there's obviously not quite as much to worry about but if he or she's acting sleepy all the time then it's really time to worry and get him or her to the vet.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

She/he has not been any more sleepy than usual. I got freaked out because usually when I turn the light on in the a.m. and take the sheet off the cage she wakes up immediately. She did wake up when I spoke to her however and she's been sleeping this morning but she always does after breakfast. She usually wakes up in the early afternoon and goes crazy every time she sees me so I'll wait to see how she does. There's no weird breathing when she's asleep - can't hear it at all. If she's not responsive this afternoon I'll take her back to the vet. I'll let you know what's going on. thank you as always


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## mr squeaks

I sure hope all is well with Lully!

Just to add my 2 cents...when I got Mr. Squeaks, he was a "squeaker," hence his name. I had no idea what a "squeaker" was until my pigeon advisor told me. Squeaks was only about 30 days old when I found him. 

As time passed, I noticed he didn't squeak any more, but had become, what I called, a "croaker!" He sounded so funny! As more time passed, these funny croaking sounds finally gave way to his "adult" voices. 

He has various sounds now depending on where he is, what he's doing and who is around. I ALWAYS know when there's a cat near him, because he has a special "cat voice!" When he's in mate mode, he will sit in the kitchern corner and just coo and coo. 

Now, in daddy mode, he will sit quietly in his basket, on his egg, for HOURS. He leaves only to eat, drink, poop and occasionally "yell" at the cats if they get in his "space!"

Life with fur and feathers is a never ending source of entertainment and education!

HUGS and SCRITCHES!


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## kathleen

*vet*

Well I'm taking Lully to the vet today at 11 a.m. Her eyes don't have their usual brightness (one in fact she holds closed a great deal of the time like she did when she had the severe PMV symptoms, although there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with it otherwise). She's fluffed up although her cage is quite warm. The weird watery sound she makes does sound as though it might develop into a coo, she hardly peeps at all, doesn't seem she can.

Last night she climbed up onto my shoulder and sat there pulling my hair. She was much quieter than usual though and seemed to want to be close to me. I'm worried about her but also worried about the vet (not just the money) but because they seem to know much less than everyone else here does about pigeons. They have a tendency to get a bit twisted out of shape if a mere mortal suggests something. Still, anything you might suggest, please tell me and I'll tell them if it seems they're just stumbling in the dark.

We also think perhaps the gavage tube may have irritated her throat and perhaps caused an infection. We'll let you know.

Also, my husband thinks Lully is a boy. He has no real basis other than "he looks like a boy to me," as he says. If in fact Lullaby is a boy, he is advocating for a new name. He doesn't think Lullaby is manish enough. He wants to name him Renfield (after the insect eating human slave to Dracula). We'll see. If anyone has any ideas prior to the vet, please let me know.
Thanks, Kathleen


----------



## Lovebirds

Just wanted to say we all wish you luck at the vet today. I hope they can determine what is wrong with Lully and get her fixed up. We're all pulling for her.....or him......


----------



## Pidgey

I've seen several pigeons come off of a course of Baytril and then get Coccidiosis. Coccidia are a protozoal infection that they've almost all got anyhow straight from their parents. It's one of those things that they can live with right up until they get too stressed or otherwise compromised. When it flares into Coccidiosis, it causes ulceratation in the intestinal tract. That can be mildly discomfiting to severe and life threatening. It is easily controlled, however, with sulfa drugs or anti-coccidial drugs. Such birds can appear to be in various states of depression running the gamut in severity. They can get over it themselves as long as they're not too bad off.

The time of life that Renfield/Lullaby is at is also one of moodiness. I think I remember going through the same worries that you are with my first although I didn't have an episode of the torticollis that might have been PMV or some other infection too near the brain. So, when you take him or her to the vet, it's one of those deals where you can tell the vet the symptoms and he or she will take a look, make do a fecal float and then if they can find something to treat they will but if not, they probably won't. You might ask the vet to look down the throat with an otoscope to see if there is any evidence of soreness but that won't be far enough to get it all as the gavage needles go down quite aways.

It's really tough looking at the outside of a bird to know what's going on. They can't tell you anything (even try hard not to--they try to hide the fact they're not feeling good) and they're covered with feathers. That said, it's almost always guesswork based on the history and whatever sleuthing you can do. With this bird's history, you could be looking at a fungal infection but that's probably more unlikely. You could also be looking at a lung or air sac problem due to having gotten some formula down the windpipe. That can cause a pneumonia. Unfortunately, if you can't catch the bird breathing hard (dyspnea) or too fast, or sounding congested, or it showing up as infiltrates on a chest X-ray, then it's kinda' tough to know.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002

Good Luck at the vet's, Kathleen. I know how frustrating it can be to even take them to one and having to wonder if they really know what they are doing/suggesting or talking about.

I hope you've got Lullaby on all the good supportive supplements you can right now such as ACV, probiotics, garlic, avian vitamins etc. Constant warmth and rehydration are paramount during these difficult times with her.


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## kathleen

*We're back from the vet*

Lully/Renfield (hereinafter I'll stick to Lullaby until I'm proved wrong) weighs 330 grams. She's too thin. The vet doesn't know what's wrong with her but does know that the bronchial sound isn't good. She's on Septra suspension .4cc's every 12 hours and Itraconazole .2 cc's every 12 hours plus one extra feeding in the evening before we go to bed.

Brad, she's been on bene-bac this week. The garlic caps - are those human garlic capsules? And if so, how do I get her to take them? As far a avian vitamins go, no. Can I get those at a pet store?

She's got her own heater by her cage but now I believe she's malnourished. The vet said this is a very aggressive treatment because they don't know what the problem is so it's an anti-fungal and an antibiotic.

She seemed so fine just 2 days ago. Now it seems like she's in some sort of decline. Help!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Lully/Renfield weighs 330 grams. She's too thin. The vet doesn't know what's wrong with her but does know that the bronchial sound isn't good. She's on Septra suspension .4cc's every 12 hours and *Itraconazole *.2 cc's every 12 hours plus one extra feeding in the evening before we go to bed.
> 
> Brad, she's been on bene-bac this week. The garlic caps - are those human garlic capsules? And if so, how do I get her to take them? As far a avian vitamins go, no. Can I get those at a pet store?
> 
> She's got her own heater by her cage but now I believe she's malnourished. The vet said this is a very aggressive treatment because they don't know what the problem is so it's an anti-fungal and an antibiotic.
> 
> She seemed so fine just 2 days ago. Now it seems like she's in some sort of decline. Help!!!!!!!!


Hi Kathleen, 

I kind of suspected your vet visit would go like this Sorry if I've forgotten, but WHO IS THIS VET, is he/she an actual AVIAN vet? Even if they are, there are lots of avian vets that (surprisingly) don't know very much about pigeons and I'm not insinuating that this person doesn't know their stuff.

However, her weight isn't too bad, and for a youngster. Don't know about the Septra, but the intraconazole is a powerful antifungal. My departed pigeon, Henny was on this drug and I do believe it weakened her to the point where she couldn't rebound. 

Bene-bac is good and works excellent, the garlic capsules can be given from human capsules. Try to find the smallest ones you can on the market and ones that have the allicin in tact still. Health food stores usually carry the GOOD stuff. OR, you can allow a small clove of real garlic to permeate Lully's drinking water for a few hours before offering it.

You need to find a good quality avian vitamin that contains high levels of vitamin D3 and calcium particularly. These are elements/minerals that are crucial for the benefits they might give.

Please, don't panic...continue as you have been, offer her the supplements as best you can and keep her warm, quiet and calm as possible. I still believe that the changes in her "voice" are associated with her becoming an adult...did the vet mention/ask or suggest this?


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## Pidgey

Well, I was afraid the vet might go that way, too. Did he mention "Aspergillosis"? That's just about what he's got to be thinking, or one of the possibilities, at least.

How much have you been feeding him per day of the formula--how much dry powder and how much liquid? As exact as you can get it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

You might want to get a cheap plastic kitchen scale from the grocery store ($10) and start weighing Lullaby every day at about the same time with respect to the feedings. They've got them that go up to about 500 grams or roughly one pound. They usually have both types of numbers on the scale so they're pretty useful.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Nick is picking up a scale on the way home from work. Brad and Treesa recommend garlic but I'm not sure how to go about giving it to her. I can't give her the capsule and don't know how many milligrams of garlic to give her.


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## kathleen

Pidgey, what do you think of the meds the vet prescribed? I think she has pneumonia, not sure why I do but I do. I'm afraid that we somehow got formula into her lungs. The horrible thing is we have to continue to feed her with the tube and do it even more frequently so she doesn't starve.


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## Pidgey

Honestly, I'd start trying to roll peas down her and things like that. I'm pretty sure that you didn't get an entire tubeful down because she'd have died pretty much within a minute or so. I've tube fed so much and I put the tube all the way down (about three inches past the beak) and never had a problem like that. How far are you going down?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

By the way, you need to reread some of the last posts and answer how much you've been giving her in terms of formula powder and water.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

the tube goes all the way into her crop. We have a surgical steel gavage tube we bought from a vet on the other side of town designed especially to feed birds and it's medical grade. It has a metal ball on the end so that you can feel it in the crop and know you're in the right place. since we've never fed her any other way, I don't even know how to roll anything down her throat.


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## kathleen

She's fed 1 part Exact to 1 1/3 or so spring water. She gets 30 cc's per feeding. The vet recommended also to give her a tiny bit of water in the tube after feeding to wash it all down which we didn't know about.


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## Pidgey

So the formula is actually fairly thick when you get it mixed up, huh? And that's what you've been feeding her all along? 90 cc's per day? I would think that you'd get a pretty fat bird out of that deal.

So, here's what the doctor's thinking: Aspergillosis. But, he's hedging his bet by adding the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo (Septra is one of those) to catch a plethora of possible bacterial infections. That's nowhere near as aggressive as it could be, though.

Aspergillosis is a very nasty customer. Aspergillosis is a term that more refers to a clinical disease infection in the lungs by Aspergillus (which is a ubiquitous fungi). It generally occurs to immuno-compromised individuals or when a very large exposure to the stuff occurs. Aspergillus is something that we're all fighting off every day and it's relatively easy. When it gets a strong hold, though, it can be very bad. In the lungs, it can proceed to an almost unstoppable wasting away, eventually ending in death. That's why you need to monitor the weight, to see if we're slipping inexorably downward. That's what your vet is thinking. It would probably be the diminished oxygen absorption capacity that would be the ultimate reason for the wasting away. If it comes to that, oxygen supplementation could prolong the fight, perhaps long enough to turn it around. If you by any accident had one of those oxygen enrichment machines (my grandmother did for the last few years of her life) that you could cover the cage at night and pump it in, I would. 

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Kathleen

I'm sorry Lullaby is still sick. 

I went back and looked at her picture and while she looks full grown she is probably a fledgling because she was still squeaking when you got her. She may well be a king pigeon and they can get very big. I honestly think that her weight sounds good for a young pigeon but you can try giving her a 4th meal just before you go to bed. Please watch her carefully to make sure she has emptied her crop each time before you feed her. Alternatively, you could try her on 40 cc each feeding, 3 x day; say, at 7 am, 2 pm and 9 pm. That way, there would be a few more hours in between each feeding to allow the crop to go down. The formula sounds a little thicker than I normally make but if she has been handling that consistency I'd stick with it.

Best wishes


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## kathleen

Hi Pidgey, she's fed 60 cc's per day. Nick is the only one who can do the tube and he does it morning and night. I give her a bit of gruel with a dropper in the afternoon although I know that's worthless. We're going to add another tube feeding at night before we go to sleep. So she'll get 30 cc's at 7 a.m. 30 at around 5 pm and another 30 at around 9:30 - 10 pm. plus her new meds, plus probiotic. I'm going to go to the pet store tomorrow for bird vitamins. I'm afraid since she's only been getting 60 cc's she hasn't been getting enough food. Also, she's been out of the cage and running around like a maniac in the evening, probably using up all her nutrients. 

If she does have aspergillosis, that would make sense because the vet said that if she starts to pant to bring her back and they would put her in a cage and pump oxygen. I just hope and pray she'll make it. Please everyone send good thoughts. She/he and I could care less which, deserves to make it. She's been a fighter and we love her.


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, I just read your last post about the 60 cc per day. Probably she should be getting at least 80 - 90. Is there any way you could soak some good quality dog food like Science Diet Adult Small Pellets and just pop a few down her throat (past the hole in the throat) in the interval between the times Nick can feed her? Don't make the pellets soggy, just nice and soft. You can even break them in half and pop them down that way.

She will definitely be in my prayers.


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## Pidgey

No self-respecting vet is going to prescribe Itraconazole on a whim. That's a very big statement about what he thinks or is afraid of. Historically, though, the pigeons that end up with really bad Aspergillosis tend to have been fed a lot of moldy grain (badly kept). Peanuts can be bad that way, too.

Aspergillus is a fungi that can produce "aflatoxins" which are very mutagenic. What that means is that those toxins can affect cells in such a way as to proceed to cancer very easily. That's one of the biggest fears of getting full blown Aspergillosis. That's not usually the kind of thing that a bird would come down with in a short period of time like you've been seeing, though. But if a little bit of the formula did get down the trachea, you'd need to protect against it for an extended period while the body eventually worked the garbage out. We breathe in an awful lot of dust in a year (including Aspergillus spores) and the body has to work that crap back out through mechanical action. Otherwise, our lungs would just fill up with dirt. These meds are to both stop an infection that may be brewing and prevent one in case of food aspiration.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Hi Maggie, the vet said when I first took her in that she might be a King pigeon but then said he didn't think so because she's so small. She's about the size of a small dove and mostly feathers. I've read about King pigeons and I know they can get up to about 2 pounds. I don't know, she looks like their pictures (they're raised for food,right? and I just don't want to think about that so maybe I'm in denial. She also looks like pictures of "garden doves". I know she is a baby and still can't coo and she can't fly although she tries but doesn't manage to get off the ground. Right now she looks awful, hunched in her cage, eyes closed but when she hears me speak she flutters her wings and turns her head to me. It makes me cry. I'm waiting for Nick to get home so we can get a good meal into her. Thank you for all your thoughts. 

I know the vet's underlying message - although not really spoken - was that young pigeons are very iffy and that I had to let nature take it's course. ****[email protected]@ nature, excuse my french. I'm not giving up on her. All your thoughts from all of you (you guys are all known to my friends as "the Pigeon People" as in I have to get home and ask the Pigeon People. You've all been such help.
thank you, kathleen and sick Lully


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## sabina

Hi Kathleen,

I'm replying to you as a fellow fledgling pigeon person. (Btw my friends know PT as the pigeon people too!) My husband and I just started taking care of pigeons in the last year. But a few things from our experience...

Garlic capsules: we were told to buy the NOW brand capsules I think but we couldn't find them. I think as long as they're softgel caps, they're ok to give. We dip it into a little olive oil, so it goes down without getting stuck. We give one a day to pigeons who are ill/malnourished. The brand we have is Rite aid.

Feeding: In order to feed the softened puppy chow (or a capsule), we wrap the pigeon in a towel, my husband Aias holds the pigeon on his lap and holds the beak open, and then I pop the food/capsule into the back of the pigeon's throat, and then let the pij swallow. It's MUCH easier than tube feeding (which we never mastered--all we can manage is giving meds into the crop with a syringe).

Weight: I don't think any of the teenage pigeons we've taken care of have weighed 330g. They weighed significantly less, so that sounds like a lot to me. I mean, I don't know about the type of pigeon you have, but it doesn't seem to me like you should be freaking out about the weight. But others certainly know more about that than me.

I'm sorry Lully isn't doing well. I've been following your story, and have been so impressed with the care you've given and the bond between you and Lully. It's very touching. I hope she starts to get better soon. 

And I think she should stay Lully whether she's a she or he! We have a pigeon now who we think is a girl for no good reason really, and her name is Pinky Brown. If she turns out to be a boy...well he'll still be Pinky, not Blue!

Sabina


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## sabina

P.S. The Rite Aid garlic capsules we have, which are 3mg each, got rid of worms for a couple pigeons, so we know they work!


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## Pidgey

One of the things that we've discussed outside the thread is that there is a similar case where the bird was treated and still didn't make it. It was one of Brad's birds, Henny, and the ultimate diagnosis tended towards a streptococcal infection in the lungs causing a pneumonia. That was based on an autopsy. They decided that it would have been more likely that the bird would have responded to a Tetracycline than the road they took. I think that the Trimethoprim/Sulfa combo might do a little better than Baytril at something like that, though.

This is a long thread but it may be worth your review and your vet's consideration:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14465

Also, if Lullaby isn't feeling that well at the moment, you'd be better off not to feed large meals. It'd be better to monitor the poop and the crop closely and feed smaller meals more often. Too much food can put a sick bird into GI stasis and that might be a real nightmare at this point. I think you said something about supplemental heat and I'll tell you that the type they love most is a heat lamp. 

Another point is are you lubricating the gavage tube with KY or something like that?

And another point would be to see if Lullaby wants to drink any supplemental water. If there is a dehydration problem, that might help her to moderate it better.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Thanks so much Sabina for writing. Also good to know that you're in NYC - I went to school there before moving her to LA (before I was in Indiana - long story). I grew up with animals but never a bird let alone a pigeon and I never dreamed she/he would have such an impact on me and neither did my husband. We're newlyweds by the way, married in December so this is our first "child." I'll try the garlic caps to the back of the the throat. I've always been afraid of choking her if I stick an object in her throat since we've always tube fed her. Maybe she is big for a pigeon, maybe she is a King pigeon. Well, my last name is actually King so that would work out just fine. I feel like the poor thing (I call her affectionately, my little chicken) has been stuffed with so many meds in the past month that ... well, I don't know. I'd rather go a more homepathic route but I'm too scared to risk anything.

Let me know how your pidges are doing also. Lully (although I do like the name Renfield, it just doensn't ring right with this one) sends her thanks too.
best, Kathleen


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## kathleen

thank you Pidgey, I'll read the thread...although I dread it. After her feed tonight she was considerably perked up...not normal by any means but much more alert than she had been all day. Maybe her first dose of meds which she had at the vets at around noon was starting to work. However I'm also worried about overdosing her with all this stuff.

A few people have mentioned that her weight doesn't seem that low, however she has lost weight since her last (2nd visit) to the vet - about 30 grams, so she is losing.

She's sleeping again, all fluffed and the room is tropically warm now (and we have to sleep there later). 

Now I'm confused about feeding her - the vet wanted me to stuff her with 30 cc's 3 times a day. If I try to feed her in the afternoon by myself with actual food, I still don't really understand how to stuff food (peas, corn - I bought organic raw black eyed peas and lentils for her) down her throat without strangling her. would someone please explain it to me as in Feeding Pigeons Solid Food By Hand for Dummies, I'd really appreciate it.


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## Pidgey

Oh, it's simple but tedious. Of course, the idea is to get them to start thinking about eating solid food on their own--it's a lot easier when they're managing their own lives, or at least their own food and water intake.

Quite simply, you open their beaks and put a pea or corn kernel in and let them swallow it. You don't have to shove it all the way back, especially if they're willing to fumble it around and then... swallow it. Give it a try.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

A lot of feral pigeons are that size in their prime. A better test of their weight is to feel the breast and see if it fills in nicely beside the keel bone. If you've ever eaten fried chicken breasts, then you've actually had a pretty good anatomy primer.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Kathleen,

I've been following this thread and not posting much because you have had the situation well in control and still do and are probably going into information overload. You're getting great advice from the members here. I'm going to make a few comments for what they might be worth ..

1) Continue to do what you have been doing .. that is being extremely attentive and sensitive to how Lully looks, acts, and sounds .. 

2) Continue to use your instinct/gut feelings to know if/when Lully is in trouble .. and .. yes .. s/he seems to be in significant trouble right now

3) Spend another $20 over the grocery store scale and get a good scale from Walmart or a similar store that weighs in both grams and ounces, has a tare feature, and a digital read out .. you are probably going to need to know down to the gram of weight how Lully is doing. The one I have is a Salter and cost about $30.

4) As Pidgey suggested, feeling the breast and keel bone is going to tell you straight off if Lully is really thin or not .. since we do not know for sure what breed of pigeon Lully is, a weight of 330 grams might be great, might be OK, or might be terrible. Feel him/her up and let your gut tell you.

5) Even if the room feels "tropically warm", it might not be warm enough for Lully .. best to make you and your husband comfortable and provide Lully with a 40-60 watt light bulb to be under for warmth or a heating pad arranged such that s/he can get off if too warm.

6) About feeding .. I think small seeds would be OK if Lully will take them. I would not give large dried peas or lentils right now .. thawed frozen peas and corn kernels would be OK as would be soaked pieces of good quality dog/cat kibble. I would also continue feeding the Kaytee but much, much thinner and would be doing smaller feedings more frequently as opposed to large feedings. If Lully is feeling poorly, s/he will not be able to readily process a huge influx of food into the crop especially if it is hard to digest.

7) Since a respiratory problem is suspected, you could consider setting up a regular old human cold type "steamer" near Lully .. no strong Vicks or anything .. just warm, steam going into the air.

8) Yes, the vet is going with some big guns here medicine wise .. probably necessary and hopefully right on target.

9) Bless you and your husband for doing all you are for Lully. I know it is hard on you emotionally, time wise, and is seriously depleting your wallet.

I'm really pulling for you and Lully. 

Terry


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## Pigeonpal2002

kathleen said:


> Brad and Treesa recommend garlic but I'm not sure how to go about giving it to her. I can't give her the capsule and don't know how many milligrams of garlic to give her.


Hi Kathleen, 

With natural supplements there really isn't a "set" dosage per se and there isn't much of a risk in "overdosing" them with these things. Specific vitamins are an exception though and if improperly given such as Vit A that is contained in some of the fish oils and supplements. Avian multi-vitamins tend to be geared towards the specific needs of most birds, having higher concentrations of calcium, vitamin D3, K and E. Nekton vitamins for pigeons and doves are EXCELLENT ones and have the correct amounts of each vitamin and minerals for pigeons. 

The garlic capsules I use are very tiny gel caps. I can't recommend this particular brand because they are made in Canada and probably not sold in the USA. They are no larger than a popcorn kernel and are easily given to the pigeons by popping them down the throat. You can lubricate them with water or oil to help them go down easier.


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## AZfiddler_1996

kathleen said:


> Now I'm confused about feeding her - the vet wanted me to stuff her with 30 cc's 3 times a day. If I try to feed her in the afternoon by myself with actual food, I still don't really understand how to stuff food (peas, corn - I bought organic raw black eyed peas and lentils for her) down her throat without strangling her. would someone please explain it to me as in Feeding Pigeons Solid Food By Hand for Dummies, I'd really appreciate it.


 Kathleen, all you are doing is placing a seed in her beak on top of her bottom mandible so that she can swallow it herself. It won't strangle her.

This is what I do:
*
1)* With your left hand you can gently pinch her beak where her beak and her head meet with your pointer finger and thumb, 

*2)* the beak will barely open

*3)* with your right hand you pull the _bottom_ mandible down
*
4) *the little pads of the two fingers of your left hand that you are pinching the beak with- Stick the little pads of your fingertips a little into the beak. That holds the beak open and frees up your right hand to grab a seed.
*
5)* stick the seed toward the back or middle of the beak on top of the tongue and let her go so she can swallow it 

I am so sorry that little Lullaby is sick again. 

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996

kathleen said:


> Now I'm confused about feeding her - the vet wanted me to stuff her with 30 cc's 3 times a day. If I try to feed her in the afternoon by myself with actual food, I still don't really understand *how to stuff food *(peas, corn - I bought organic raw black eyed peas and lentils for her) *down her throat *without strangling her. would someone please explain it to me as in Feeding Pigeons Solid Food By Hand for Dummies, I'd really appreciate it.


 I think you are thinking of it in terms of tube feeding. You stick the tube down her throat to the crop, but with solid foods it is different-- all you are doing is placing the seed in her beak so that she can swallow it herself.
If you place it towards the back of the beak she will be more likely to swallow it. Later on you can place it at the tip and she'd still swallow it, but if you did that now she'd probably just spit it out because she doesn't know what to do with it since she's never eaten one in her whole life.

Alice


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## jazaroo

Hi Kathleen,

This video made by Cynthia (cyro51) may be of aid to you in helping you visualize just how hand feeding is done.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Good luck and I hope Lully starts to feel better very soon.

Ron


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## kathleen

*Saturday*

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the advice. I'm going out to get a steam humidifier, vitamins and garlic caps this a.m. Nick is picking up the scale at a friend's house. I'm putting the heating pad in her cage.

This morning Lully looked really listless although she still responds to me. I picked her up for her a.m. feed and she sneezed in my face. So now she's sneezing. She looks absolutely miserable.

Going with my gut instinct as Pidgey has suggested, I'm going to leave her alone this morning. She doesn't want to be handled, I can tell. As far as feeling her keel, it's sharper than it was just a week ago.

I'll try getting some baby seeds down her this afternoon. She doesn't seem to want to drink water today so I'll give her some in an eye dropper. Despite feeling so awful she still struggles like a monster when it's time for the feeding tube. She HATES it. but who wouldn't?

Please send good thoughts. I feel like if she can get through this weekend, she'll get well. That's my gut feeling.
kathleen and baby lully


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## kathleen

*Henny*

I just read the thread about Brad's Henny. It was awful. I'm so very very sorry, Brad.

Today Lully sneezed and there was also some mucus on her nostrils. I feel that my vet is doing his best but that they're really shooting blind at this point. I'm very concerned that the meds will make her worse not better but I have no choice but to continue since I have no idea (and neither do they) what's really wrong with her. We still don't have the results of the fungal side of her fecal and it could be days yet. But what is obvious is that she's sick. She has fluid in her lungs and it's not better than it was yesterday.

With humans it takes about 48 hours for an antibiotic to start to really be effective, so that's what i'm hoping for Lully. Even when she was bad 2 weeks ago she was nowhere as bad as this.


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## Pidgey

Let's get that bird on Doxycycline now. Call the vet up and make them give it to you. I'd rather that it was the injectible. They can give that for a week at a time.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Pidgey said:


> Let's get that bird on Doxycycline now. Call the vet up and make them give it to you. I'd rather that it was the injectible. They can give that for a week at a time.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey, just called the vet and left a message for the vet requesting Doxycycline and am waiting for a call back.


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## Pidgey

Write this down and take it with you:

75-100 mg/kg, IM-SC, q5d-QW

I'd go Intramuscular. Tell him that she's getting worse and it's probably a strep. If possible, I'd go with oxygen but I know that's going to cost.

Pidgey


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## kathleen

Pidgey said:


> Write this down and take it with you:
> 
> 75-100 mg/kg, IM-SC, q5d-QW
> 
> I'd go Intramuscular. Tell him that she's getting worse and it's probably a strep. If possible, I'd go with oxygen but I know that's going to cost.
> 
> Pidgey


Dear Pidgey, thank you for your help this evening. We called the vet's office and are taking her in for the injection rather than trying to force the liquid down her throat. We're hoping the trip (about 45 minutes each way) won't be too traumatic but feel we have to go for it at this point.

I'm taking your prescription with us.


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## Feather

Bless your hearts! We are all pulling and praying for Lully's recovery.

Feather


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## kathleen

*Lullaby*

She didn't make it. Lully our beloved passed away sometime between eleven p.m. and 1:30 this morning.

We are devastated. She was amazing and our hearts are broken. Thank all of you for all your help and support. 

Such a little bird and such a huge soul.

Kathleen and Nick


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## jazaroo

Kathleen and Nick,

This news is truly heart breaking, you both tried so very hard for Lully, she could not have asked for better people to have rescued her. I want to thank you for the love and comfort you provided her with while she fought so hard to get well again. 

Warm thoughts your way,

Ron


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## Lovebirds

Oh, Kathleen, what a terrible thing to hear first thing in the morning. I am SO VERY sorry.
No doubt, you did ALL and more than anyone could do. Between you and Pidgey and all the others help, you've got to know that we were all pulling for her. 
I, and I'm sure all the others, would love it if you would stay on our forum. Again, I'm very sorry. I know it's hard, but at least Lully knew she was loved and she passed in a nice warm loving home.
Bless you and your husband for taking in this little one and doing all you could possibly to do save her.


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## Skyeking

Kathleen,

I'm so terribly sorry to hear this.

I know how heartbroken you must be.

Sending my warmest thoughts and a BIG hug for comfort.


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## AZfiddler_1996

Oh, Kathleen, I am so sorry!!  Just remember that you gave Lullybird the best chance she could have had. She knew she was loved and she didn't have to leave out in the cold with no one there to show her love.
Maybe another little pigeon that isn't sick will come along your way and give you love and joy that you have found pigeons bring.

Alice


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## Lin Hansen

Kathleen,

I'm so, so sorry to hear this terrible news.

You did so much to try to help....went above and beyond what many people in your situation would have done. For that alone, you deserved a happy ending and I'm so sorry it didn't work out that way.

Little Lully got to experience receiving more love in such a short time than many animals ever get to experience, even if they are lucky enough to have long lives.

Thank you for trying so hard to help her....you did your absolute best.

Linda


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## Pidgey

I am so sorry for you and just feel sick about it. It's rare that anyone tries that hard. I keep thinking and thinking trying to figure out what went wrong but I know from experience that there will be no answer. In the short life that Lullaby had, at least she was loved a lifetime's worth. Bless you both for your big hearts, at least there's nothing whatsoever wrong there!

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Dear Kathleen and Nick

I recently told Pidgey in a PM that I didn't know when I had been as affected by a pigeon not our own as much as I have been by Lullaby. Both of you have shown tremendous love and compassion for a little being that all of us wanted to live. I was particularly touched when Kathleen wrote that you were newlyweds yet you were so willing to devote the time, effort and resources to care for her.

There is nothing I can say to make her death easier for you to bear, but you can, and should, take comfort in knowing that you did everything possible for her. 

Lullaby touched many lives in her short time on earth and we are all better for having known her or about her. I hope you will continue to check in on the forum and also consider adopting a pigeon as a member of your new family. 

May God bless you.


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## kathleen

*Thank you*

Dear Everyone,

Nick and I searched and searched our minds and hearts for any little thing we could have done to prolong her life. There is no answer. I know since all you have these little souls that if I say that she was special it will seem kind of silly, as all of yours are special too. But I want to share a few things about Lullaby that I haven't yet.

This little creature taught Nick and I so much. When I saw her at 2 in the morning with her feet up I burst into tears, not just tears, sobs and felt my heart would break. I have had animals all my life and I have loved them all. I had to put down my beloved Blue Heeler, Ti, in 2002 and never thought I'd ever be able to love like I loved her. She was with me for 15 years.

Lullaby was with me for only 1 month. In that short time she so affected our lives and even the lives of our other animals. Our big Staffordshire Terrier would sit by her cage, not even curious about her but just knowing that she was sick. He would chase the cats away if they got too close to her cage. He protected her. This morning my dogs wouldn't eat their breakfast. They never do that. They know she is gone.

But here is the truly strange thing. Night before last at approximately 2 a.m. Nick and I both woke up at the same time. I got up and looked in her cage, hoping that she was still alive and she was. She was sleeping peacefully. We went back to bed. In the morning Nick said he wanted to tell me something that he said was weird. When we had gone back to bed and I had already fallen asleep Nick said that he saw a bright light coming from INSIDE the cage. The cage has a sheet on it. He said he saw a light like a small flashlight beam that pulsed from a small pinpoint to a radiant light that filled the inside of the cage. The light then faded, it didn't go out but faded out.

When I asked him why he didn't wake me up he said he felt terrible because he was being selfish and wanted to go back to sleep and besides he couldn't rationally explain it. He knew there was no rationale explanation. When he told me I was so happy, I said then she must be being protected. Nick is a very practical man. He doesn't believe in anything that he can't physically see but he did see this strange thing with his own eyes.

So yesterday I was buoyed with some hope as Lullaby got worse and worse. We took her for the injection around 5 p.m. and it seemed to just exaust her beyond words. We couldn't stand the thought of putting the tube down her throat after all she'd been through. We put her on the bed and for the first time I opened her beak and one by one put a few defrosted peas down her throat and with each one said "good Lolly!" Even in that devastated state she turned her head and looked up at me and her eye brightened. Lullaby ate the peas for me, not for herself. She did it to make me happy.

I felt most awful that I went to sleep and she died without me beside her. I know she held on as long as she could and she did it for me.

I don't know what the white light was. I do know that I read that Nicholas Tesla loved and fed the feral pigeons in New York and one, a white pigeon, died in his hands. When it died he said that a white light glowed from it and from that point on, Tesla who had never believed in a supreme being became a believer.

I've thought and thought about it. Do pigeons have some special physical characteristic that would enable them to somehow radiate? There must be some scientific explanation. But yet I know there isn't one.

We are going to have her cremated and we will scatter her ashes in a place with a big sky and lots of trees. She never got a chance to fly so we want to put her ashes in a place the wind will carry them high.

Lullaby was pure. She was pure love. She taught me more about love than anyone or anything I have ever known. She changed my life. I will be eternally grateful for her presence in my life. Thank you all. I will stay on the forum and if another pigeon come to me, then that is what should be.
Thanks again. Kathleen and Nick


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## sabina

Oh Kathleen I am so sorry about Lullaby. I had been thinking and hoping so much for you both. The bond that you experienced was so special, and you tried so very hard. I know you must be feeling terribly, but really, you went way above and beyond for this sweet bird. I truly feel for you and Nick, and all that you have gone through. You really are sweet and caring people.

I posted before I read your last post, and I just want to say I am really touched by the rare and profound connection that you experienced. It is truly amazing. I'm glad you're staying on the forum.

Sabina


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## Pete Jasinski

I'm so very sorry Lullaby left you Kathleen! 
You and Nick did all you could to heal her, you went above and beyond the call or duty. Her month with you impacted the three of you deeply and I know she loved you as much as you loved her. She's at peace now, no pain and she's flying wherever she desires. Her mission on earth is done now as short as it was, she's crossed over and has taken her place among all our beloved lost friends and waits for the day you will be rejoined. Always keep her memory alive and she will live forever in your hearts.


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## Feather

Kathleen and Nick,

This is truly a sad day for the forum. I was going to try to be SO strong for the two of you, but after reading Kathleen's post, I am a mess.

Since I have had my birds there has been many spiritual occurrences that have taken place here that I can't explain. I believe with all my heart that you did not accidentally find Lullaby. I believe that she was presented to you. I know that this sounds corny, but my pigeons have angels. Some of them are on this forum. 

Kathleen, I have many white pigeons and doves. I have not felt well enough lately to give them the care that they are use to receiving, and I will not give them up to just anyone. Lullaby's angel put her in a place that you could find her. I just want you to know when you are ready there is another place where you can find a beautiful white pigeon or dove that will benefit from your love.

Lullaby is with her angel now, and through them we have gained two very special friends on this forum. Thank you for sharing this love story with us.

With tremendous sorrow, I feel your loss,
Feather


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## TAWhatley

Kathleen and Nick,

I am so terribly sorry for the loss of little Lullaby. This is so heartbreaking for all of us and especially so for you and Nick. Bless you both for all you did to help Lully. I know s/he loved you and did her best to stay with you for as long as she could.

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Kathleen and Nick,

I'm deeply sorry to hear of Lullaby's passing and know that you both must be
heartbroken with the loss of this special little soul. You are both in my thoughts and prayers.

fp


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## mr squeaks

Dear Kathleen and Nick,

So many of us have checked in to see how Lully was doing. To be honest, I always "geared" myself mentally whenever I saw your thread. I know she had so much to overcome and that you and Nick did all you could and gave her unconditional love and support. 

I also know that those who helped did their very best too. Those of us who share our lives with our animal and bird friends have a special comraderie that the world would do more to emulate.

I am also a FIRM believer in things that most consider "unexplainable." To me, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE, ONLY UNKNOWN! 

When man learns to live in harmony with others, we will be able to share and experience and learn more about these "unexplained" phenomenom. I, personally believe that the light Nick saw was Lully letting him know that her "spirit" would survive but she was ready to "leave." I don't know if this will bring you comfort, but I most sincerely hope so! Our *spirits/soul/energy never dies...*

Those who have posted before me have echoed what I also feel!

I have a feeling that you WILL "find" another lovely bird one day - Lully will see to it!

Meanwhile....take care and may you be surrounded with LOVE and HUGS!

Shi


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## Flying_Pidgy

Thank you so much Kathleen and Nick.
You two are truely amazing people. Thank you for everything .


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## Pigeonpal2002

Dear Kathleen & Nick, 

I'm so sorry as well to read about Lully's passing today. I really didn't expect her to go this quickly after her turn for the worse so this is quite a shock for me too. Perhaps this was Lully's way to save you from the sorrow of her passing with you there. It's so incredibly troubling to have a beloved pigeon die in front of you or in your hands, I've had it happen to me twice now. Thank you as well for your condolences about my Henny in a previous post.

Pigeons are such strong birds compared to other birds. They seem to have extra reserves that usually allow them to pull through things that would have killed other birds much, much faster. So, it would seem that poor Lullaby was a very sick girl. The other thing that was against her was her age, she hadn't developed her immune system fully yet and this was probably a factor in her early passing.

Lully was special, they all are to each of us in their own ways and how they affect our lives. Pigeons are birds that have an extraordinary way of making us love them and once a pigeon has touched you in this way, they will always hold a special place in your heart.

Maybe one day when you're ready, you and Nick will want to help/adopt or offer another pigeon a good home with the two of you. One may find it's way to you guys anyway when you're least expecting it...it tends to work that way.

I'm so sorry again, you guys tried so hard and loved her so much.


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## kathleen

*The next day*

Good morning to all of you,

Thank you all from the bottom of our hearts. Nick read all the posts too and sat here with tears running down his face. Nick is a big 6'3" guy who works as a building contractor. Although I know he is very sensitive, you'd never know it to look at him and I've never seen him cry. He and I cried on and off all day yesterday. 

We took Lully to be cremated. We have a couple more pictures that we took of her when she was feeling so good last week which I'll post later today. I just can't bear to look at them right now without starting to cry.

She was magical. Her gift to us and to everyone was to remind us that there is no creature no matter how small that is insignificant and that does not possess a soul or the ability to love. 

Nick and I do want other pigeons but not right now. As I said when I started this thread, we live in a tiny apartment in hopes of saving to buy a house later this year with a bit of land. When we do we will have pigeons, you can be assured of that, as well as any other animal kin that come to us. However we will never turn our backs on one if it came to us now.

Well, the hard part today will be cleaning out her cage and putting it away. I know it will be used again someday though.

Much love from us to all of you and your babies, Kathleen


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## Flying_Pidgy

Kathleen, i would just like to say that before you start getting your own kit of pigeons , i suggest asking for tips from these very experienced people - as i do so you can ensure higher saftey precautions for all your pidgies both outside and inside. thank you for everything you have done and remember everyone here is on your side =) good luck!


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## andinla

*Dear Kathleen & Nick*

I have followed your thread from half way through it and was cheering and praying she would pull through it. I am sorry for your loss, but I know she must have wings now and is flying high. She was an angel on earth, called home. 

You both are special people. I would like to say thank you for helping the pigeon and doing everything possible to save her. Pigeons are amazing birds. 

Thank you again 

Take care 
Andi


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## kathleen

*My Favorite of Lullaby*

Here's one last photo of Lullaby, Lullybaby, Lollydoll. It's my favorite but that's maybe because I knew her. She's looking over her shoulder and you can see the little imp in her eye. This was when she was feeling good, feeling her oats so to speak.

I'll be back from time to time to check on all you guys. Please stay in touch with us too.

Kathleen and Nick


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, she was so beautiful and thank you for sharing that picture with us.


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## Skyeking

Hi Kathleen

Thank you for sharing such a lovely picture, I share your setiments. 

She probably has taken the position of PEACE dove, and/or the Holy spirit dove, she is in heaven...afterall...


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## Victor

Kathleen and Nick, I stopped in today to check on your situation with Lullaby and just read the sad news. I am so sorry to read that you lost your beautiful pigeon. My heart goes out to the both of you. We will all be waiting for you when you do return. God bless you both.


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## Pidgey

For what this is worth, working back to when you said the time that Lullaby passed away was, I awakened and worried and stayed awake and worried through that entire period. I didn't know why or what, but you might say that I was there, too.

Pidgey


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## Feather

You had a profound connection with Lullaby, Pidgey. I guess there would have to be (for lack of a better discription) some sort of marriage of the spirits. 

Many of us on the forum follow your passion to help people save their birds. We follow but many times do not have the knowledge to add anything beneficial. But we are always here and always rooting for you.


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## AZfiddler_1996

kathleen said:


> Here's one last photo of Lullaby, Lullybaby, Lollydoll. It's my favorite but that's maybe because I knew her. She's looking over her shoulder and you can see the little imp in her eye. This was when she was feeling good, feeling her oats so to speak.
> 
> I'll be back from time to time to check on all you guys. Please stay in touch with us too.
> 
> Kathleen and Nick


 That brought tears to my eyes... I'm so, so sorry, Kathleen! 

Lichita


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## kathleen

Thank you Brad, I know you understand after reading about your sweet Henny. So much of that thread was a help as I'm certain the same happened to Lully. The amazing thing about this forum is the help it gives to all of us. Please keep in touch and let me know how your babies are doing.
best, Kathleen


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## kathleen

I'm still thinking of your dove, Alice. I hope she stays with you. Isn't it amazing how these birds get to our hearts? There's something so very special about them that people who never have them just can't understand. Your words and thoughts through all of us have meant so much to me.
love, Kathleen


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## Skyeking

hi kathleen

I'm glad your posting, please continue to do so if you feel like it, you are one of us now.


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## kathleen

Dearest Pidgey, Dr. Pidgey,
Thank you, thank you, from the bottom of my heart for having to deal with my complete and utter ignorance with so much kindness and so much patience and so much concern for Lullaby's well being. I can't think of very many human beings who would take the time and make the effort that you have, certainly not my vet. I will always remember your help and kindness and will be back to ask you a million new questions in the future because pigeons will always be part of my life.
love from Kathleen and Nick and Lullaby


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## kathleen

Thank you, Treesa. It's an honor to be considered part of of the flock.


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## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> For what this is worth, working back to when you said the time that Lullaby passed away was, I awakened and worried and stayed awake and worried through that entire period. I didn't know why or what, but you might say that I was there, too.
> 
> Pidgey


I am sure you were, Pidgey. I firmly believe that we are not bound by time or space. We are only "bound" by our lack of understanding and/or knowledge...

Katheen and Nick, we will always be here...just a mouse click away...stay with us...

Wishing you both the very best...

Love and Hugs...

Shi
& 
Mr. Squeaks


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## Feather

True Kathleen....none of us are ready to let go of you. You made such an impact on all of us with your love and kindness. I found a poem for you that was posted on the forum some time back. I thought of you, because you displayed such determination to hang on to Lully's life force. 

What is it that my life is worth, 
How much will you pay. 
To what extent would you go, 
If I get ill today. 

I know I'm not an expensive bird, 
My cost is fairly cheap. 
But what is the price you put on life, 
For something that you keep. 

My wings still spread out the same, 
My heart still has a beat. 
So why is it that my cousins, 
Are the ones you hold so sweet. 

I cannot help that I was born, 
Without a golden egg. 
Will you still take care of me, 
Or make me plead and beg. 

I rely on you to help me, 
As I can't do it for myself. 
Will you take the steps needed, 
Or just put me on the shelf. 

So when you walk by me, 
Please look me in the eye. 
If it would come down to it, 
Would I live or die?

We need more people like you in this world!!!


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## Scuiry

*Lullaby and the Light*



kathleen said:


> Dear Everyone,
> 
> Nick and I searched and searched our minds and hearts for any little thing we could have done to prolong her life. There is no answer. I know since all you have these little souls that if I say that she was special it will seem kind of silly, as all of yours are special too. But I want to share a few things about Lullaby that I haven't yet.
> 
> This little creature taught Nick and I so much. When I saw her at 2 in the morning with her feet up I burst into tears, not just tears, sobs and felt my heart would break. I have had animals all my life and I have loved them all. I had to put down my beloved Blue Heeler, Ti, in 2002 and never thought I'd ever be able to love like I loved her. She was with me for 15 years.
> 
> Lullaby was with me for only 1 month. In that short time she so affected our lives and even the lives of our other animals. Our big Staffordshire Terrier would sit by her cage, not even curious about her but just knowing that she was sick. He would chase the cats away if they got too close to her cage. He protected her. This morning my dogs wouldn't eat their breakfast. They never do that. They know she is gone.
> 
> But here is the truly strange thing. Night before last at approximately 2 a.m. Nick and I both woke up at the same time. I got up and looked in her cage, hoping that she was still alive and she was. She was sleeping peacefully. We went back to bed. In the morning Nick said he wanted to tell me something that he said was weird. When we had gone back to bed and I had already fallen asleep Nick said that he saw a bright light coming from INSIDE the cage. The cage has a sheet on it. He said he saw a light like a small flashlight beam that pulsed from a small pinpoint to a radiant light that filled the inside of the cage. The light then faded, it didn't go out but faded out.
> 
> When I asked him why he didn't wake me up he said he felt terrible because he was being selfish and wanted to go back to sleep and besides he couldn't rationally explain it. He knew there was no rationale explanation. When he told me I was so happy, I said then she must be being protected. Nick is a very practical man. He doesn't believe in anything that he can't physically see but he did see this strange thing with his own eyes.
> 
> So yesterday I was buoyed with some hope as Lullaby got worse and worse. We took her for the injection around 5 p.m. and it seemed to just exaust her beyond words. We couldn't stand the thought of putting the tube down her throat after all she'd been through. We put her on the bed and for the first time I opened her beak and one by one put a few defrosted peas down her throat and with each one said "good Lolly!" Even in that devastated state she turned her head and looked up at me and her eye brightened. Lullaby ate the peas for me, not for herself. She did it to make me happy.
> 
> I felt most awful that I went to sleep and she died without me beside her. I know she held on as long as she could and she did it for me.
> 
> I don't know what the white light was. I do know that I read that Nicholas Tesla loved and fed the feral pigeons in New York and one, a white pigeon, died in his hands. When it died he said that a white light glowed from it and from that point on, Tesla who had never believed in a supreme being became a believer.
> 
> I've thought and thought about it. Do pigeons have some special physical characteristic that would enable them to somehow radiate? There must be some scientific explanation. But yet I know there isn't one.
> 
> We are going to have her cremated and we will scatter her ashes in a place with a big sky and lots of trees. She never got a chance to fly so we want to put her ashes in a place the wind will carry them high.
> 
> Lullaby was pure. She was pure love. She taught me more about love than anyone or anything I have ever known. She changed my life. I will be eternally grateful for her presence in my life. Thank you all. I will stay on the forum and if another pigeon come to me, then that is what should be.
> Thanks again. Kathleen and Nick



Kathleen,

Another member shared this thread with me after posting my story of Nikola Tesla and his pigeon. You asked a question above which I'd like to address but may not be appropriate for this forum. Feel free to contact me privately.

Daniel


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## kathleen

*Tesla - and question*



Scuiry said:


> Kathleen,
> 
> Another member shared this thread with me after posting my story of Nikola Tesla and his pigeon. You asked a question above which I'd like to address but may not be appropriate for this forum. Feel free to contact me privately.
> 
> Daniel


Hi Daniel, I haven't been on the forum since losing Lullaby - no new pigeons but I think about everyone here often. Nick and I were just mentioning the forum the other day. I'd be happy to hear whatever you might be able to share with us. I'm not sure how to contact you directly...perhaps I've forgotten but I don't see a private message from you in my inbox? Let me know how to proceed.
best regards,
Kathleen


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## Pidgey

Kathleen, 

If you position your cursor onto the name "Scuiry" above and to the left of the post, you'll see the pointer transform into a hand. Click on it, and it'll make a drop-down menu that has an email option. Click on that and it'll go to an email form.

It's so good to "see you again", by the way.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Kathleen, it is so very good to hear from you. I hope you and Nick are doing well.


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