# America's International Challenge - One Loft Race



## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

any members here planning on joining this new OLR event next year? any thoughts you can share for i am interested to participate. if you click on the 2011 entries they have big names on their reservations list. 

http://www.aicrace.com/









kalapati 
San Diego


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I don't know much about the race but it's gonna be run by the guy who used to run the "Espo's East Coast Challenge - One Loft Race" and from what I've seen he had pretty good races when he was doing this race up in New Jersey. Now they built or are building a huge loft in the corner of a good size field down in SC. I was thinking of entering a one loft race and I'm thinking if I was to enter any I would send them to this one since it has all the big names in there. I feel if I'm gonna send birds out to try to prove them I wanna go against all the big boys.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Plus I like that they have some of their payouts guaranteed.


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## fresnobirdman (Dec 27, 2008)

Man, looks like America's best has already signed up for 2011.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

The man than owns Sure Bet will have 10 birds, there will be 30 GFL birds there. And all the top guns are allready loaded. At $1000 a bird if every body pays they have 890 birds so far. WOW 
Dave


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

That is one big time race...$1000 per bird entry. To be competitive, you'd have to dish out $2000-3000 just to up your percentage. If you only pay for one bird, might as well donate the money instead. It's not for the poor man like myself.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Frank runs a good race. at 1k a pop even the big guys might have a hard time buying this race. Nice loft going up. See Frank is building a larger version of his loft.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm just a nobody in the pigeon game but there are so many big names entering this race. I'm also thinking like Pigeon0446 would like to test my birds against the big names so will also send a team of 5 in March. Wishing all the Seabiscit pigeons GOOD LUCK in this one!!


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Good luck. You planning to activate all 5?


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

The way the one lofts has been losing birds this past year. I'll be lucky to have one out of the five to activate at the first race. Will see how it goes.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Let's see how they do first year before you jump in. New loft, new course, new to the area - anything can happen. Remember TOC how it was touted and hyped up? When I see testimonials like the ones published on their site - I get very nervous. They are guaranteed 100K 1st place, but we need to see what number of entries they are basing the rest of the payout i.e. what percentage cut they are taking. New lofts like the quality they are building costs big money. We also need to see who wins the first year. Too many alliances in this sport posing conflicts of interest.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

I think they know this is their one shot to do things right but will see.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Right up front, I don't like the idea of having to buy my own birds back.The thing I didn't like about Frank's East Coast Challenge race, which I last participated in around 2006, was the fact that he had his son in law release the birds at some secret location, and then there was only a single day bird which won $32,000. Then that bird was quickly hidden away and no one was allowed to see the bird. When I voiced my concerns about lack of openness and transparency I was told.."If you don't like the way we conduct business then don't fly in this event"....I didn't think that having witnesses at the release site, or having some witnesses inspect the winning bird, was asking all that much. With that response, my partner didn't want to fly the East Coast Challenge again. I don't know if this event will have any more transparency or not. I will just wait and see if those 895 birds are shipped to the loft, or if those numbers are a bit of a stretch. Right now, all we really have is a slick web site, and a few endorsements from interested parties, who presumable will have birds there. I would want to see how this race develops over the next few years, before I would make any commitments.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe the secret location was rite next to the winning bird's loft, and the other's were driven several hundred miles away and then released. Just kidding, but you never know.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> The man than owns Sure Bet will have 10 birds, there will be 30 GFL birds there. And all the top guns are allready loaded. At $1000 a bird if every body pays they have 890 birds so far. WOW
> Dave


I'm sure these top guns have been personally invited to send birds for free for purpose of getting others to participate in this event. Good marketing on their part but that's a hefty fee to pay for a race. Good luck to anyone here that participates!


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Long story short...i know someone who has 10 entries and he told me today Danny Hutchins or Hutchinson (forget which one it is) called him today and asked what kind of birds he was flying and where they originated...if this is true I think its odd....i think as long as you pay and your birds show up its nobodys buisness what lines you are racing....if one wants to share what they have then so be it..but i think for example if someone knows I am racing SFL or ADL loft birds there would be a better chance of those birds getting nixed from the competition and becoming a breeder in someone elses loft.

Hopefully the race is conducted with the upmost integrity by all at all phases. But from what Warren has shared this person probably has some issues if its true.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Right up front, I don't like the idea of having to buy my own birds back.The thing I didn't like about Frank's East Coast Challenge race, which I last participated in around 2006, was the fact that he had his son in law release the birds at some secret location, and then there was only a single day bird which won $32,000. Then that bird was quickly hidden away and no one was allowed to see the bird. When I voiced my concerns about lack of openness and transparency I was told.."If you don't like the way we conduct business then don't fly in this event"....I didn't think that having witnesses at the release site, or having some witnesses inspect the winning bird, was asking all that much. With that response, my partner didn't want to fly the East Coast Challenge again. I don't know if this event will have any more transparency or not. I will just wait and see if those 895 birds are shipped to the loft, or if those numbers are a bit of a stretch. Right now, all we really have is a slick web site, and a few endorsements from interested parties, who presumable will have birds there. I would want to see how this race develops over the next few years, before I would make any commitments.


With that much money on the line, there needs to be witnesses at the release site. Interesting to know. Thanks for sharing. One day when I win the lottery, I will be looking to enter some races.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Just read all the rules and wouldnt consider entering it even if i could afford it. I wonder how much he thinks these birds are going to be selling for when all said and done...70/30 with the race keeping 30% to help pay for the BBQ for the first 50 U.S birds...out of country birds 50/50 ?? Good news is you get to keep 70% of what ever you pay to get your bird back if you buy it back lol. So I guess you could say you are paying twice...I will probably read it again and see i misunderstood the rules and am wrong in what i am saying,, but the money spent to activate your birds when racing starts i think would be enough..... Hopefully you have enough money to buy it back if you want it.... I wonder when and if they will be accepting job applications, I need to find something that pays well in the evenings. Perhaps if I went to work for one of these races I would see things more clearly and feel differently.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Let's face it, $1M is alot of money, and can make ordinary people do strange things!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

Airbaby said:


> Long story short...i know someone who has 10 entries and he told me today Danny Hutchins or Hutchinson (forget which one it is) called him today and asked what kind of birds he was flying and where they originated...if this is true I think its odd....i think as long as you pay and your birds show up its nobodys buisness what lines you are racing....if one wants to share what they have then so be it..but i think for example if someone knows I am racing SFL or ADL loft birds there would be a better chance of those birds getting nixed from the competition and becoming a breeder in someone elses loft.
> 
> Hopefully the race is conducted with the upmost integrity by all at all phases. But from what Warren has shared this person probably has some issues if its true.


As Danny Hutchins is one of the sponser's of this race, I think it is inappropriate of him to call one of the entry racer's and ask for information regarding his bird's.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bbcdon said:


> Maybe the secret location was rite next to the winning bird's loft, and the other's were driven several hundred miles away and then released. Just kidding, but you never know.


Let's put it this way...the original East Coast Challenge was held in New Jersey. When I attended this event, we were treated to your typical Italian specialities like sausage etc. Most of the folks there had first names like Pauley, Tony, etc. etc and there were a lot of gold chains. I just didn't feel comfortable that if we raised too much of a fuss, that we would make it back home. But, hey that is me. I am sure if the number one pigeon merchant in the USA says it is all on the up and up, and this event is as honest as the day is long, then hey....forget about it... skip a mortgage and car payment and send your birds to the race.

If I do attend this event at some point in the future, I just want to make sure I have people wiith me who are licensed to carry firearms....and that is all I am saying.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Let's put it this way...the original East Coast Challenge was held in New Jersey. When I attended this event, we were treated to your typical Italian specialities like sausage etc. Most of the folks there had first names like Pauley, Tony, etc. etc and there were a lot of gold chains. I just didn't feel comfortable that if we raised too much of a fuss, that we would make it back home. But, hey that is me. I am sure if the number one pigeon merchant in the USA says it is all on the up and up, and this event is as honest as the day is long, then hey....forget about it... skip a mortgage and car payment and send your birds to the race.
> 
> If I do attend this event at some point in the future, I just want to make sure I have people wiith me who are licensed to carry firearms....and that is all I am saying.


I know the kinda guys your talking about I hated for years that they'd get their birds back cheap at the auctions for the local auction races mean while they had some of the best birds in the auction. Nobody would bid on their birds then one auction I was done with it and bid them up high on all their birds. My dad got so pissed at me he's like your gonna get shot. LoL Now everybody's doing it so we build up the races off them it's easy to get 500 or more out of them so they can get their birds back for these races.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Let's put it this way...the original East Coast Challenge was held in New Jersey. When I attended this event, we were treated to your typical Italian specialities like sausage etc. Most of the folks there had first names like Pauley, Tony, etc. etc and there were a lot of gold chains. I just didn't feel comfortable that if we raised too much of a fuss, that we would make it back home. But, hey that is me. I am sure if the number one pigeon merchant in the USA says it is all on the up and up, and this event is as honest as the day is long, then hey....forget about it... skip a mortgage and car payment and send your birds to the race.
> 
> If I do attend this event at some point in the future, I just want to make sure I have people wiith me who are licensed to carry firearms....and that is all I am saying.


That made me laugh..it reminds of the parody of the movie The Goodfellows...
called the "Good feathers" about some New York city wise guy cartoon pigeons it spoofs the Guido stereotype of Italian mobsters. 

Anyway this made me think of the saying "Fools go where Angels fear to tread". I agree the smart play is wait and see.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Let's put it this way...the original East Coast Challenge was held in New Jersey. When I attended this event, we were treated to your typical Italian specialities like sausage etc. Most of the folks there had first names like Pauley, Tony, etc. etc and there were a lot of gold chains. I just didn't feel comfortable that if we raised too much of a fuss, that we would make it back home. But, hey that is me. I am sure if the number one pigeon merchant in the USA says it is all on the up and up, and this event is as honest as the day is long, then hey....forget about it... skip a mortgage and car payment and send your birds to the race.
> 
> If I do attend this event at some point in the future, I just want to make sure I have people wiith me who are licensed to carry firearms....and that is all I am saying.


Amen to that. The ride home could be a very long one!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jAxTecH said:


> That made me laugh..it reminds of the parody of the movie The Goodfellows...
> called the "Good feathers" about some New York city wise guy cartoon pigeons it spoofs the Guido stereotype of Italian mobsters.
> 
> Anyway this made me think of the saying "Fools go where Angels fear to tread". I agree the smart play is wait and see.



Except that....I was not really trying to be funny. We have all heard of stories where guys cheated just to win a trophy or a diploma. This is why your typical combine has all kinds of rules to make everything open, honest and transparent. Now, if you are having an event, where many tens of thousands....maybe even hundreds of thousands of greenbacks are involved.......your gonna need some oversight in my humble opinion.

Maybe I just have a devious mind, or maybe I just don't trust nobody. You have all heard of horse races that were "fixed". I could think of a whole lot of ways to "fix" a One Loft race. It's only a matter of time, before somebody suggests that regulation and oversight is needed. 

This *is NOT *to suggest that this particular event will not be honest, or is rigged, or anything of the sort. I am saying that the integrity of an event, must be above reproach. Extraordinary measures should be taken to make it open and transparent. Any system which relies 100% on an individual's personal honesty is doomed to fail. Because unfortunately, even an honest person can be tempted to cheat and steal. Many folks might be honest when there is say $100 involved.....some of those same folks might turn to the dark side when the amount is a $1000...and even more could be lured with $10,000.....talk about hundreds of birds @ $1000 a pop....and heck, maybe even that good church deacon, with four hungry kids, who is being sent to release the birds, might even agree to do something dishonest.

There is an old saying which goes something like, if your at a card game, and you don't know who the easy mark is, then you are the mark.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If I do attend this event at some point in the future, I just want to make sure I have people wiith me who are licensed to carry firearms....and that is all I am saying.


The way I see it if you feel you need to be packing heat to "enjoy" a pigeon race its best not to get involved.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

jAxTecH said:


> The way I see it if you feel you need to be packing heat to "enjoy" a pigeon race its best not to get involved.


To be honest and fair, I pack heat almost everywhere I go now days. If I'm not packing, then I have folks with me who are. It's a shame that even in a small city such as York, Pa. it's not even safe to go downtown at night and enjoy dinner with your wife. It didn't use to be that way, but I guess it is the sign of the times.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> To be honest and fair, I pack heat almost everywhere I go now days. If I'm not packing, then I have folks with me who are. It's a shame that even in a small city such as York, Pa. it's not even safe to go downtown at night and enjoy dinner with your wife. It didn't use to be that way, but I guess it is the sign of the times.


Well said Warren. Just like G Gordon Liddy of the Watergate scandal used to say about packing heat after he was released from prison, "I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6".


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I last participated in around 2006, was the fact that he had his son in law release the birds at some secret location, and then there was only a single day bird which won $32,000. Then that bird was quickly hidden away and no one was allowed to see the bird. When I voiced my concerns about lack of openness and transparency I was told.."If you don't like the way we conduct business then don't fly in this event"....I didn't think that having witnesses at the release site, or having some witnesses inspect the winning bird, was asking all that much. .


Kinda like the World Ace Challenge where some non-pigeon guy activated a German entry (that the Germans did not want) and won the guaranteed $300K.


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## The796 (Aug 1, 2010)

This discussion has been very helpful. After reading everyone's opinion I believe the smart thing would be to wait and see how this race is run for a few years before putting birds in. I didn't know there was so much to considered before entering a one loft race. Being a newbie I though there was nothing to this one loft thing. You just breed some birds send it in pay your entry and if you have the best bird take home all the cash. Thanks guys for opening my eyes and saving me some cash.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

anil_pigeon said:


> Kinda like the World Ace Challenge where some non-pigeon guy activated a German entry (that the Germans did not want) and won the guaranteed $300K.


Interestingly, the same guy Hutchins won the World Ace too, and his buddies are in this race too. I bet I could even name 5 of the "top" lofts that will be on the top of the race sheet that day!


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

Warren, those are some pretty heavy duty accusations. I was at that race along with about 80 others in Franks backyard. I really don't recall seeing you at the race. It was in 2005 and the day bird belonged to Joe Zack.There was no "secret" release point... He has released from the same spot in Ohio every year... Only 2 miles from the CJC release station... And just like every year he gets his EZ pass ticket for verification. The bird was not " hidden away" We all got to see her and Henk Kuylars photographed her. I understand it was a disappointing race with just one day bird.... But accusing the man of cheating is a bit strong. As for his response if you don't like the way i conduct business then don't fly it...... That is exactly what my response would be if someone was questioning my integrity. Whether this AIC race will be the next Million Dollar race... I don't know.... But without a doubt Frank and Danny's integrity need not be questioned.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TENTIL said:


> Warren, those are some pretty heavy duty accusations. I was at that race along with about 80 others in Franks backyard. I really don't recall seeing you at the race. It was in 2005 and the day bird belonged to Joe Zack.There was no "secret" release point... He has released from the same spot in Ohio every year... Only 2 miles from the CJC release station... And just like every year he gets his EZ pass ticket for verification. The bird was not " hidden away" We all got to see her and Henk Kuylars photographed her. I understand it was a disappointing race with just one day bird.... But accusing the man of cheating is a bit strong. As for his response if you don't like the way i conduct business then don't fly it...... That is exactly what my response would be if someone was questioning my integrity. Whether this AIC race will be the next Million Dollar race... I don't know.... But without a doubt Frank and Danny's integrity need not be questioned.




Well, I don't know who you are, so I don't know if you were there or not. With as you said, somewhere around 80 people there, and being that it was 2005, I can't really say that I could pick even 10 folks out of a line up of who was there. 

Since this is only your second post, and TENTIL is not your real name, I am somewhat at a disadvantage. I don't know if you are a client of Frank's, a close personal friend, relative, or even Frank himself. Apparently you know them on a close enough level to the extent that you can vouch for their personal honesty and integrity. Unfortunately, I do not really know the individuals Frank and Danny you mentioned. They may be very honest people with the utmost in integrity. 

I was there along with three other members of the UPC combine who were race participants, and they were the ones who raised their eyebrows and these issues with me in conversation. Frankly, at the time, much of what they were saying had gone over my head. It was only later, after thinking about these issues that I communicated these concerns to Frank and his son, as I am not sure who responded to my emails. I didn't make any accusations, I simply communicated these concerns which were raised. I asked if the 2006 release point could be made public so that witnesses could watch the release, and if some number of disinterested knowledgeable pigeon fanciers could inspect the winning bird for the 2006 event. Instead of taking my legitimate concerns as an opportunity to increase service, and provide additional transparency, they like you, got very defensive. 

Being a retired banker, my view is that whenever there are large sums of money involved, there should be procedures in place which does not simply rely on a person's reported honesty. There are all kinds of checks and balances on the club and combine levels in order to insure accurate and honest race results. I would think that operators of a One Loft Race event, in which tens of thousands of dollars are involved, would instead of becoming defensive, would do everything possible to insure transparency, and to attempt to the fullest extent possible, to alleviate these types of concerns of their race clients. 

Maybe everything was run on the straight up and up. I am assuming it was. I am hoping it was. But, having a son in law get an EZ pass to show his father in law he was on the turnpike, does not in my judgement, offer conclusive evidence that a proper release was provided. I also don't know who "We All" were who examined the bird. Perhaps there was some sort of committee or some insiders who got to examine the bird, but if that was the case, it certainly was not evident to the three of us. If there was an examination which was done, it was not communicated. 

If this all had taken place, then an explanation of this fact, and a "We will do better job next year in communicating" would have been a much better response,...then telling a paying customer, "If you don't like the way we do things here then don't fly this event". Call me old fashioned, maybe that is how they treat folks at their business, but it is not how I think a customer should be treated. 

And fortunately, this was the only event in which I was treated in this manner. My loft manager/partner and I have participated in a number of events including the Pigeon Talk Classic, Pa. Dutch Classic, the Flamingo International Challenge, and the Winners Cup, and this is the only event in which I took issue with. When I had questions or concerns, they all seemed willing and able to address them in a professional manner. 

I wish Frank the best of luck in his new venture.


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

Well warren you don't seem to trust anyone. Yes i was there. My name is Carey Tilson and i have been involved in One Loft racing since 2004. 

I would not call them personal friends but i know i would not question someones integrity based on as you say "raised eyebrows" but what sounds like to me people with sour grapes.

Your post accused him of cheating and lying. I think you should edit yourself a bit and not make those kind of accusations based on some buddies sitting at a table that raised their eyebrows.

If you can't say something positive... Why comment at all? Especially when you admit you just don't know what happened.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I like to hear both positive and negative comments. I also like to hear people's experiences with certain events. I have also encountered these comments in the past:"If you don't like the way we do things here then don't --- this event" variant. Usually I don't do business with that company anymore. They are bad at communicating, bad at listening and bad at treating you as a customer. They might as well just say "Just F--k off!"

In the past there might have been gentleman's agreement. Now it is "trust, but verify."


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

I have never raced any one loft races and may never race any, this is my third year and the race that, I really like was at the end of old bird season of 2009, on the last race of the season was the "SOUTH EAST OPEN" I think it tested the birds really well, I wish they had more of these kind of races were you are flying back to your own loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TENTIL said:


> Well warren you don't seem to trust anyone. Yes i was there. My name is Carey Tilson and i have been involved in One Loft racing since 2004.
> 
> I would not call them personal friends but i know i would not question someones integrity based on as you say "raised eyebrows" but what sounds like to me people with sour grapes.
> 
> ...


Hello Carey,

I do appreciate your input and your posts. You are a very well known One Loft participant, and if I were to start up my own One Loft event, I am sure I would seek out endorsements from fanciers of your stature. Thank you for your perspective and your support of One Loft Racing here in the USA. 

I very respectfully do take issue with the suggestion that I "don't trust anyone". Or that I accused anyone of "cheating and lying". Please reread all of my posts. 

In my local club and combine we employ such devices such as timing clocks and seals. We have rules such that a member can not help process his own birds on shipping night. The driver can not transport the birds and be competing in the race at the same time. There must be three members to process the birds on shipping night, and three members to take off the clocks. Now, is this because "I don't trust anyone " ?  Nope, it is simply to insure the integrity of a race, and I don't know of any club or combine in the country which does not have a set of various rules , policy's, and procedures to insure that the race results are legitimate and accurate. 

Now, when one conduct's a One Loft Race, where there is much more at stake then simple bragging rights and a paper diploma, why should there be any less stringent rules then one would have at a local club ? And if a member of a combine would come up with a suggestion that maybe seals should be put on all club crates when shipping birds, should that member be censored and basically told to "go pound sand" because his suggestion, in the minds of some, might suggest that someone in the combine might be a cheater ?!

Not to belabor the point, but I feel as if I was treated rather shabbily at the East Coast Challenge. I do not have a vast amount of One Loft experience as 2005 was my first One Loft race. And it was only after I shipped birds to this event again in 2006 and asked for additional details as to the location where the birds would be released from, as I thought that could or at least should be public and perhaps even have witnesses, that I ran into this "take your birds and go home" attitude. You see, I was willing to give these folks the benifit of the doubt. It was this lack of customer appreciation and concern for appearences that I really took issue with. 


As far as not knowing what went on that day, I confess I certainly do not have all the facts, and I don't know how any of the participants there that day could have known all the facts either. As One Loft Race participants and cheerleaders of these types of events, I would think that it would behoove all fanciers to insist on some minimum level of standards. My fear and concern is if we don't, then government intervention, control, regulation, etc. is right around the corner. And if these events are not run to the very highest standards, then the racing fanciers themselves will not participate and then that will be the end of them period. 

I do not have an ax to grind with this particular event. I do not know the owners, or the promoters, or who all may have a financial interest. Readers will have to make up their own minds if they want to dismiss my negative experience, and the concerns of the other fanciers with me that day that participated. Were they legitimate, or nothing more then just a bunch of sour grapes ? I suspect that breeders have reframed from sharing negative experiences in the past with different One Loft events around the country, for reasons similar to why some people are reluctant to complain about their food in restaurants. In the case of a restaurant, they don't want the cook to do something to their food, and in the case of a One Loft event, they don't want to be in a position where their birds may be mishandled, or perhaps they won't get their standard V.I.P. treatment. My motivation is to protect this relatively new industry, and to assist in making it even better in the future. 

In conclusion, I do wish Frank and company, and the various investors and interested parties the best of luck in this new venture. I do hope that they will consider the concerns of the little guys in the future, and will do more to insure the integrity of the races under their managements. It is in the best interests of all of us.


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

Warren, whatever man! You are saying you are uncomfortable because of all the gold the people in the yard are wearing. That next time you go you will be "packing" ... I don't get you man. I was there in 2006 and had 3 on the drop in the 350... Won a pile of money.... Guess i paid Frank off based on your paranoia....The race was as fair in 2006 as in 2005. We got people like you in our combine.... If they don't win then somebody must have cheated. RETIRE!


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

TENTIL said:


> Well warren you don't seem to trust anyone. Yes i was there. My name is Carey Tilson and i have been involved in One Loft racing since 2004.


If your Carey Tilson then I'm Santa Clause. 

What right do you have to badger Warren for expressing his concerns about this event?

If he doesn't like the way it was run then why are you hostile about it? 

Like everyone else here we like to know how these races are conducted and what a person's experience was. 

If you don't like the race being criticized tell the ones running the races to listen to the people that support them. 

That dog ain't gonna hunt with that attitude of "If you don't like it then leave".

The races reputation is based on the experience of the participants..If its important to the race sponsors to have good things said about the way they run the races, then they will take the time and listen to the ones that refuse to participate because of bad attitudes or lack of transparency.


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## Wingsonfire (Dec 22, 2009)

jAxTecH said:


> If your Carey Tilson then I'm Santa Clause.
> 
> What right do you have to badger Warren for expressing his concerns about this event?
> 
> ...


Why would you question who he is? If he says he is Carey Tilson I will take him for his word?


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Wingsonfire said:


> Why would you question who he is? If he says he is Carey Tilson I will take him for his word?


Because I listened to an interview with Carey Tilson on Pigeon Radio and his tone doesn't come across like that. In his interview he sounds very thoughtful and courteous. His persona in the interview is that of a Gentleman. This guy ended his rant telling Warren to retire..does'nt mesh with me.


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

IF you don't like the race don't get in it. To sit there and accuse a man of cheating... To degrarde the people that are at the race and suggest you need a gun to be at the race.... Without ANY facts is ridiculous. 

I am hostile about anyone who calls a man a liar with no facts. In my book that is a heavy duty charge.

I think all the races should be scrutinized and evaluated. Thats why i have done well... i scrutinize and pick the ones that work for me.....But DUDE!!!! YOU BETTER BE DAMN CERTAIN BEFORE YOU POST ON A FORUM THAT SOMEONE IS CHEATING. That is EXactly what Warren has suggested.

And if an asshole tells you if u dont like it then leave.... Then leave... Post that.... Not some BS about a secret release point or the bird was whisked away secretly... I was there and that was BS. I stood 3 feet from the bird when Frank took it out of the loft and Henk Photographed it..... Joe Zack was not at the race and the bird was put back in the loft.... Never was it as Warren puts it " whisked away " 

And i did not feel i needed a gun to be present. Made a couple great friends even though none of us got a bird.... And like Warren said... The "Italian style food" was great!

So if this is a forum... You guys are entilted to your opinions and i to mine. Sorry we disagree. But Frank runs a good race and has for the past 5 years. He and Danny are very honest, respectable people.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

TENTIL said:


> Warren, whatever man! You are saying you are uncomfortable because of all the gold the people in the yard are wearing. That next time you go you will be "packing" ... I don't get you man. I was there in 2006 and had 3 on the drop in the 350... Won a pile of money.... Guess i paid Frank off based on your paranoia....The race was as fair in 2006 as in 2005. We got people like you in our combine.... If they don't win then somebody must have cheated. RETIRE!


That is some impressive results. Congrats mr Tilson on your one loft racing. Can you answer me one question though? Did you get back your birds from Mr Espo? If so, was there any kind of bedding in the boxes? I have heard multiple complaints about condition of birds returned from this race, in particular no bedding in the shipping boxes.

Also, was your endorsement solicited? 

Thank you.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TENTIL said:


> IF you don't like the race don't get in it. To sit there and accuse a man of cheating... To degrarde the people that are at the race and suggest you need a gun to be at the race.... Without ANY facts is ridiculous.
> 
> I am hostile about anyone who calls a man a liar with no facts. In my book that is a heavy duty charge.
> 
> ...


Mr. Carey Tilson,

I am sorry that my perceptions and poor experiences at this particular race has made you so angry. You keep saying that I called the man a liar and said he was cheating, I did not. You are making unfounded charges, as anyone can go back and read my posts. 

You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem to be taking this way too personal. I am sorry we did not see or experience what you say you did. 

I am not so sure that your hostile response, is all that different, then what we may have faced that day if we had raised some of these issues at that time. And part of the reason why I had not voiced my negative experiece with this event in public forums before. 

With such a hostile response, and large sums of money involved, taking one's personal security into consideration does not seem all that extreme. At the very least, does not feel like the kind of enviroment I would now want to take my wife to. Yeah, sort of reminds me of some of our Combine meetings as well. 

Carey, your posts on this thread does provide additional perspective and insight, into the published endorsement you provided for this event. I do want to thank you for shedding some light on this subject for our readers here at pigeon talk. I feel as if I know you a whole lot better then I did before.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TENTIL said:


> Warren, whatever man! You are saying you are uncomfortable because of all the gold the people in the yard are wearing. That next time you go you will be "packing" ... I don't get you man. I was there in 2006 and had 3 on the drop in the 350... Won a pile of money.... *Guess i paid Frank off based on your paranoia....*The race was as fair in 2006 as in 2005. We got people like you in our combine.... If they don't win then somebody must have cheated. RETIRE!


Sorry I somehow missed this post. Not trying to belabor the point, but I think we need more openess and transparency and not less.


I am happy that you won money at this event. I never claimed anyone cheated. I did bring up concerns about a single day bird shortly after the son in law returned from the release and getting the $32,000. When I asked for the location of the release site the following year so we could have witnesses there, and an independent committe to examine the bird, that is when they got hostile, much like you have been on this thread. 

You refer to wanting some openness and transparency as "paranoia", I call it insuring the integrity of the race. Would have made no difference to me if I had won some money at this race event or not, it is in the best interest of everyone that we have races which are open and transparent. One can attempt to brow beat me, and accuse me of all kinds of things which are untrue, but I will still insist that we should have all kinds of rules and polices which insure the integrity of these events. 

You seem to take issue with this, which then does raise more questions. Is it possible that some of the breeders have too much of a cozy relationship with some of the operators of these events ? It's not exactly like we have a State Gaming Commission, or some government body much like what regulates horse racing, which is available to look out for the interests of all of the participants.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> you should stay out of big boy conversations and tend to your ferals. Seriously, go write some rap songs or something....


"big boy conversations" Seriously..now your a tough guy jumping on the bash Warren bandwagon also? 

So now if anyone has a negative thing about their experience and they share it for others to read they get attacked on a personal level?

Those commies had more heart then you could understand. I lost them to my resident Coopers. You need to shut your pie hole about things you don't understand.

You can boast all you want about your record..I hope you break your arm patting yourself on the back cheese boy.

I think I will write a rap about little punks like you..good idea.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

My two cent are this;

Warren - seems kinda funny to me that you post around this site like you are the master, or better yet an arogant dictator or should we say administrator. Someone like Tilson comes on here and you turn into a ass kissing puppy with his tail between his legs.

Jax - It seems funny to me that by a radio interview you can translate it to a assumption of some one typing on this forum. I think you have not a word to say on this topic. You and I are in the same boat on this one, meaning we have NO one loft race experience! So all I can comment on is the absolute ridiculosness of these two posters!!!! C'mon wake up!!


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> My two cent are this;
> 
> Jax - It seems funny to me that by a radio interview you can translate it to a assumption of some one typing on this forum. I think you have not a word to say on this topic. You and I are in the same boat on this one, meaning we have NO one loft race experience! So all I can comment on is the absolute ridiculosness of these two posters!!!! C'mon wake up!!


Look I agree I do not have a "dog" in this fight and I am not sucking up to Warren. But on a public forum everyone should feel free to share their experience either good or bad. I would defend a person with only one post as equally as a moderator that can defend himself. I think bashing an individual for sharing their story is wrong. I think Tentils said his peace he sounds like he was there. I haven't attended any one loft races so I like hearing stories like these so I know what pitfalls to avoid. Now if its inaccurate we should be able to discuss the subject without attacking the individual. Sounds fair doesn't?


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

anil_pigeon said:


> That is some impressive results. Congrats mr Tilson on your one loft racing. Can you answer me one question though? Did you get back your birds from Mr Espo? If so, was there any kind of bedding in the boxes? I have heard multiple complaints about condition of birds returned from this race, in particular no bedding in the shipping boxes.
> 
> Also, was your endorsement solicited?
> 
> Thank you.


The birds were returned in very good shape and yes there was straw in the box. My only complaint with Franks race would have to be the West course is a tough course and he trains very very hard compared to most One Loft organizers. So until i figured out which birds could handle his training i struggled to get them to the main event. Look at this years race... 20mph North winds.... It is a tough race!


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## TENTIL (Dec 8, 2010)

Jax.... You are right i did jump on Warren a hard.... But i encourage you to go back and read his posts.... No need for obvious slanderess commentary about Frank, Italian Americans etc etc.... I did get overly upset but felt i was defending a friend who was not here to defend himself....Going to let it go now.... Move on to a happier thread. Sorry if you were offended.... Not sorry to have offended Warren. He is not helping the sport.... He is hurting it.... Again start from the beginning as i did and read ALL his posts.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

TENTIL said:


> Jax.... You are right i did jump on Warren a hard.... But i encourage you to go back and read his posts.... No need for obvious slanderess commentary about Frank, Italian Americans etc etc.... I did get overly upset but felt i was defending a friend who was not here to defend himself....Going to let it go now.... Move on to a happier thread. Sorry if you were offended.... Not sorry to have offended Warren. He is not helping the sport.... He is hurting it.... Again start from the beginning as i did and read ALL his posts.


Its all good. I will apologize for questioning your identity. Anyone could say anything online and if it wasn't you and was an impostor I'm sure you would appreciate the skepticism. Good Luck with your races in 2011.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Alright, I'm getting sick of all this fighting in the forum this is like the third topic this week. I bet everyone wonders why the sport is dying, it must be fighting like this straying away possible future fanciers. As a youth member if I hadn't already invested so much in the sport I would be quitting right now, quite honestly of all the people online and in the club I've meet about two people that are nice generous and people that want to help others. So how about next time someone wants to do something like this we use cleaner words and don't call each other names, as I am embarrassed right that I'm probably the youngest one posting here, telling you all you should conduct yourselves better.

Thanks,
Big Sho


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

*Agreed*



First To Hatch said:


> Alright, I'm getting sick of all this fighting in the forum this is like the third topic this week. I bet everyone wonders why the sport is dying, it must be fighting like this straying away possible future fanciers. As a youth member if I hadn't already invested so much in the sport I would be quitting right now, quite honestly of all the people online and in the club I've meet about two people that are nice generous and people that want to help others. So how about next time someone wants to do something like this we use cleaner words and don't call each other names, as I am embarrassed right that I'm probably the youngest one posting here, telling you all you should conduct yourselves better.
> 
> Thanks,
> Big Sho




I agree..I had a more then a few post get out of hand lately. I will try and keep my online postings "toned down". One thing you will realize if you haven't already is that Pigeon Racers are competitive and fiercely loyal to their friends..and yet one could say they do not "Play well with others". Hence all the bickering you will see. I wouldn't quit because of it..just seems the way the sport has evolved. Like I said I will try to tone my post down in the future.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> *We should just call you "sour grape warren".*
> 
> Even after the thousands you've spent on your ludo birds, you've continued to under perform at the one loft races you've entered. I can't even find your clubs results on the AU database. Name one top prize in the last 3 years??? Everyone on this forum pretty much praises you as some racing pigeon god...*I think you're highly over rated*.
> 
> ...




I look forward to the competition. And I think I would have to agree with you, I am pretty much overrated, I am pretty sure my wife could provide you a list of examples.  

If one takes some the time to read some of my 3,000 + posts, you will find plenty of examples where I have stated that I don't even know, what I don't know. *For all I know, you may have forgotten more about pigeon racing then I even remember*. I don't even know all of the questions, let alone all of the answers. 

As far as suggesting foul play, I don't think I did any such thing. But, then if my local club or combine did not use seals on their clocks, or did not follow various AU or IF rules and/or guidelines I would take issue with that as well. And if I did, it would not to suggest foul play or any other such thing. 

I never dreamed that suggesting that a money race should have at least the same standards or practices as what a local club race would have, is to suggest that foul play is involved. But, it would appear, that at least at some of these events, if one suggests that things are not being handled correctly, it is pretty obvious now, that one can expect to be subjected to a variety of negative comments. Apparently, if one does not enter dozens of these events and has not won numerous awards and championships, then one is to simply pay their money and shut up ?  

For the record ProPigeon Loft, you should provide your name, so that I can find what events you will be entering in 2011, besides this this new venture American Int. Challenge, so I can send a few of my scrubs to see just how bad you end up beating me. As I would suspect you would, as I am not a professional, I am simply a hobbyist who enjoys having a few pigeons. And unlike Mr. Tilson and presumably yourself, I am unable to afford the big $1000 per bird types of events.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

First To Hatch said:


> Alright, I'm getting sick of all this fighting in the forum this is like the third topic this week. I bet everyone wonders why the sport is dying, *it must be fighting like this straying away possible future fanciers. As a youth member if I hadn't already invested so much in the sport I would be quitting right now*, quite honestly of all the people online and in the club I've meet about two people that are nice generous and people that want to help others. So how about next time someone wants to do something like this *we use cleaner words and don't call each other names*, as I am embarrassed right that I'm probably the youngest one posting here, telling you all you should conduct yourselves better.
> 
> Thanks,
> Big Sho


Big Sho,

I have to agree with you. I tried to express my perspective, while being respectful of those who came on here and disagreed with me. If I had to do it all over again, perhaps I would have simply followed the advice and suggestions of others, and simply kept my mouth shut, and only expressed my concerns in private conversations, and just not participate in certain events. 

You do touch on a topic which is material for another thread, and that is the fact that we have lost the ability in this sport, to have civil conversations and discussions. It reminds me of what we find distasteful when people have honest diferences in opinion. I am sorry for those parts of my communication which may have caused others discomfort.

As a Moderator, I may have become too personally involved with the topic of this thread, when I shared my personal experiences with one of the events run by one of the operators of this new venture. It requires a very delicate balance, and it is difficult if not impossible, when one attempts to be both a contributor and a moderator all at the same time. I tried not to respond to personal attacks in kind. I did attempt to communicate my perspective and my position on what appears IMHO, as a lack of objective over site with some of these One Loft type races. And as one can readily see, when one offers even constructive criticism, it sometimes is not accepted or appreciated by those who may have benefited in the past from the status quo.

I do appreciate your post, and thank you for reminding me that when we disagree, we should not become disagreeable, as our actions do impact this sport and others.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

I think the back and forth bickering has to do with the offseason. As pigeon people we have nothing to do for the most part. I know I go out to my loft a dozen times a day, trying to drum up something to do. We are just bored, and frustrated because we are not racing! At least that is how I feel!


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

Sometimes we write or say things that are not meant to be taken seriously, then before you know it, it goes in a direction it wasn't meant to. This is one of those.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

SouthTown Racers said:


> I think the back and forth bickering has to do with the offseason. As pigeon people we have nothing to do for the most part. I know I go out to my loft a dozen times a day, trying to drum up something to do. We are just bored, and frustrated because we are not racing! At least that is how I feel!


you need something to do? Come on out I have plenty!


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

Xueoo said:


> Sometimes we write or say things that are not meant to be taken seriously, then before you know it, it goes in a direction it wasn't meant to. This is one of those.


 after i read it from start to finish.. Ill have to agree with xueoo on this one.. 
And south town racer is right also.. some people dont have much to do in the off season.. maybe if u live in Wisconsin right now then u can go shovel 18 inches of snow that we are getting right now..


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

R-Tune said:


> after i read it from start to finish.. Ill have to agree with xueoo on this one..
> And south town racer is right also.. some people dont have much to do in the off season.. maybe if u live in Wisconsin right now then u can go shovel 18 inches of snow that we are getting right now..


Holy crap, 18" of snow!!!! It is 11:20 am here, and it is 64 degrees. I am not rubbing it in, but I do not know how you guys can handle those cold winter's.


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Holy crap, 18" of snow!!!! It is 11:20 am here, and it is 64 degrees. I am not rubbing it in, but I do not know how you guys can handle those cold winter's.


U get used to it and learn to find stuff to do in the winter time..I started ice fishing 3 years ago and now it makes my winter go by super fast..The more snow and colder it gets the better the fishing.. it is 20 degree here and its one of the warmer days this week..


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> *Joel Alvarez
> 
> I use the alias ProPigeon Racing Loft, come follow me to any race I enter.


nice video bud,,, you should put a link here...


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## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

bbcdon said:


> Holy crap, 18" of snow!!!! It is 11:20 am here, and it is 64 degrees. I am not rubbing it in, but I do not know how you guys can handle those cold winter's.


I'm on the coast a couple hrs west from you...it's 75+ here.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

TENTIL said:


> The birds were returned in very good shape and yes there was straw in the box. My only complaint with Franks race would have to be the West course is a tough course and he trains very very hard compared to most One Loft organizers. So until i figured out which birds could handle his training i struggled to get them to the main event. Look at this years race... 20mph North winds.... It is a tough race!


I've never flown a one loft race but my birds have done pretty good for me and I wouldn't say I'm the best handler. But if like you say he's a hard trainer this is the race I should try since most of these one loft races don't train hard enuff for the birds I have. I should've entered birds into his race when it was up in NJ since my birds fly the same course as he used for the race up in NJ.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

TENTIL said:


> The birds were returned in very good shape and yes there was straw in the box. My only complaint with Franks race would have to be the West course is a tough course and he trains very very hard compared to most One Loft organizers. So until i figured out which birds could handle his training i struggled to get them to the main event. Look at this years race... 20mph North winds.... It is a tough race!


So was your endorsement solicited?

Thanks


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> You need to get a life silent bob...I'm not sure whether to be flattered or disgusted.
> 
> I mean a grown man just spent hours writing a poem for me.
> 
> I have to say it made me chuckle...


Look Pedro you think its funny cooper hawk got my ferals..I'm glad you got my message


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

TENTIL said:


> Warren, those are some pretty heavy duty accusations. I was at that race along with about 80 others in Franks backyard. I really don't recall seeing you at the race. It was in 2005 and the day bird belonged to Joe Zack.There was no "secret" release point... He has released from the same spot in Ohio every year... Only 2 miles from the CJC release station... And just like every year he gets his EZ pass ticket for verification. The bird was not " hidden away" We all got to see her and Henk Kuylars photographed her. I understand it was a disappointing race with just one day bird.... But accusing the man of cheating is a bit strong. As for his response if you don't like the way i conduct business then don't fly it...... That is exactly what my response would be if someone was questioning my integrity. Whether this AIC race will be the next Million Dollar race... I don't know.... But without a doubt Frank and Danny's integrity need not be questioned.


I have reread Warren's posts and I didn't see any accusations. What I have read is a speculation on his parts. And since he was not treated well with perhaps a small suggestion for better transparency, then obviously he would become more suspicious of things done. You were lucky that you were there. The race event was then transparent to you. How about those that were not there? How can it be transparent for them? That was the question or topic raised by Warren. As I have read your posts it seems that you will do the same as your friend did who ran that one loft event.. You will not like your integrity to be questioned. Why? What is wrong with that? Even the running presidents of USA are questioned for their integrity. Even Supreme Court judges of this land are also questioned before they get their posts. How could you be different and with your friend? Perhaps if we know you and your friend, then we can have better trust. Until then blindly trusting someone is not my sense of integrity. In this day of age where we have identity thief and other stupid stuff we want more security and transparency. To say "just trust me" is rather too foolish to me now. Maybe in the past we can do that when the population is small and everyone seems to know everyone, but today we are more skeptical.


I hope this heated debate is just a result of miscommunication because it is getting too personal.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

This whole thread has given me a chuckle , its like telling someone what they should do or how they should feel ,ask for an opinion and everyone will have their own, thats all it comes down to in the end. When it comes to pigeon people it seems that no two think alike especially when it come down to the competition.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Competition can bring the worst or the best in us!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

RodSD said:


> Competition can bring the worst or the best in us!


 Very true Jonathan


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I am not a beleiver in one loft races...The reason,many years ago I have seen what happens when the one loft mgr is friends with one or more of the big money guys...I like it when the $$ races are handled by local lofts flying OOA birds...The IF and AU Convention races are super,and they are 110% honest....They don`t care if Ganus wins,or little old Alamo....
This is a senario which could happen in a one loft race,which could be said to be cheating...I personally beleive what I write below is not cheating,but it is FAVORTISM at it`s worst....
The one loft race loft has 10 sections.....100 birds to each section....In section #!,the birds of all the other BIG GUNS of this sport in the USA are in this #1 section...YOU name the NAMES...Put all their birds in this section..The other 9 sections get Alamo`s...Warrens....Pigeon0446 etc in them.....Section #1 gets the best feed,the best meds,the best training etc....They get trained and released in groups of 20 to 25 birds....The other sections don`t get anywhere near this attentive training etc,that the #1 section is getting....When the races start,who`s birds will be on the 1st drop ?? Not Alamo`s !! The reason they want the BIG GUNS to win allmost all the money ?? They will not enter any birds the next year,and the race will be a bust...They need the BIG GUNS money in the race,to bring in the little guys like me....
Now remember,I am not accusing anyone of anything...I`m only giving a seniro that could play into reality.....The above would not be CHEATING,but it definetly not HONEST !! You be the judge if the above COULD happen in any One Loft Race in the USA or the World !!! Alamo


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Alamo said:


> ...but it is FAVORTISM at it`s worst....
> The one loft race loft has 10 sections.....100 birds to each section....In section #!,the birds of all the other BIG GUNS of this sport in the USA are in this #1 section...YOU name the NAMES...Put all their birds in this section..The other 9 sections get Alamo`s...Warrens....Pigeon0446 etc in them.....Section #1 gets the best feed,the best meds,the best training etc....They get trained and released in groups of 20 to 25 birds....The other sections don`t get anywhere near this attentive training etc,that the #1 section is getting....When the races start,who`s birds will be on the 1st drop ?? Not Alamo`s !! The reason they want the BIG GUNS to win allmost all the money ?? They will not enter any birds the next year,and the race will be a bust...They need the BIG GUNS money in the race,to bring in the little guys like me....


I am sure that happens more often than we would like to think. 

Let's just use TENTIL as a case study - a phenomenal one loft race participant with outstanding results.

Case in point: TENTILs' birds were shipped back with straw bedding from Espos race. I know and just confirmed TWO others that did NOT have straw and dividers in the boxes...leading to filthy birds on return not to mention condition of the birds...

Case in point: Most if not all of the testimonials/endorsements on the site were solicited. TENTIL disappeared after the question was asked of him twice.

That seems unethical to me.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Very interesting.


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm still sending my 5 to the AIC. Why? Look at all these guys who are entering! Who's who of the pigeon sport in America. Yes different location ect but hey there flying to the same spot who's gonna be the favorite now? I believe hutch and espo just wants to see who "does" have the best pigeons in America! Come on 1st place $100,000 guarenteed payout! 

Yes the AU and IF are ok but then again you don't know who you are sending 2. Loft management and systems play to much of a big role in furturnities. 

I've heard the same when you mentioned special pigeons in special sections ect it happend to one of our guys in Minnesota when he went to the loft lol and the guy hosting it is in here 2 LOL "Flamingo" who knows!? Musta been a coincidence but you'll never know. 

The "Only Way" to beat these one loft winning guys is to purchase their pigeons! Or.....have ur own lol.

It's great to have conversations like this sometimes it keeps us motivated. Keep your heads up fellas see you on top of the race sheets!


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> I'm still sending my 5 to the AIC. Why? Look at all these guys who are entering! Who's who of the pigeon sport in America. Yes different location ect but hey there flying to the same spot who's gonna be the favorite now? I believe hutch and espo just wants to see who "does" have the best pigeons in America! Come on 1st place $100,000 guarenteed payout!
> 
> Yes the AU and IF are ok but then again you don't know who you are sending 2. Loft management and systems play to much of a big role in furturnities.
> 
> ...


The only guarantee is that you are not in the top 5 already slated to win this race. Sorry!


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

How would you know? People whom are scared like you shouldn't reply to people like me! Put your money where your mouth is or go about your business! I could careless who you are in this forum mister a person whom wants to test his best pigeons amongst other in the USA do what I do and enter there best and only hope for the best. I'm not gonna sit on the side line club racing and watch these races and be like you. If my birds are behind on the race sheets I work on it! Not slated to be top 5 psst better ask somebody!


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

[MN]eXist^_^ said:


> How would you know? People whom are scared like you shouldn't reply to people like me! Put your money where your mouth is or go about your business! I could careless who you are in this forum mister a person whom wants to test his best pigeons amongst other in the USA do what I do and enter there best and only hope for the best. I'm not gonna sit on the side line club racing and watch these races and be like you. If my birds are behind on the race sheets I work on it! Not slated to be top 5 psst better ask somebody!


LOL - I am not sure quite what to make of this incoherent gibberish.
You must be affiliated with the AIC.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

anil_pigeon said:


> LOL - I am not sure quite what to make of this incoherent gibberish.
> You must be affiliated with the AIC.


Are you sure your name isn't Buck?


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Nice try to detract from the AIC issues of their guaranteed payout
and solicited endorsements.

Sorry if the truth offends ya - 

Again, let me reiterate:
Guaranteed payouts to your friends and family (which includes people that
don't even have pigeons);

Too many major players with questionable issues surrounding one loft racing.

This race sounds like it wants to "right the wrongs" done in the World Ace Challenge but here's the problem - with all of the same players.

Too many endorsements that sound "too good to be true".

You are probably one of the fav five that has been slated to win this race.


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

How have you been Buck? Haven't seen on the forum for a while.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> How have you been Buck? Haven't seen on the forum for a while.


Sorry if you got rubbed the wrong way Bucko, Buck, BBc, or whatever your name is, usually the dog that gets hit is the one that yells the loudest.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I would love for Mojave Breeding Station to host a one loft race. I bet tons of people will show up there for many various reasons.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Kal-El said:


> I would love for Mojave Breeding Station to host a one loft race. I bet tons of people will show up there for many various reasons.


I'd love to be there on race day just to see that guy get his ass beat by all of the ppl he's screwd.


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## PigeonVilla (Dec 8, 2010)

lol now that would surely make a great video for youtube, Mojave Breeding Station one loft race manager gets the beat down film at 11 .


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

anil_pigeon said:


> Sorry if you got rubbed the wrong way Bucko, Buck, BBc, or whatever your name is, usually the dog that gets hit is the one that yells the loudest.


Buck, this is no way to treat people. Come clean and you will feel a lot better. I couldn't think of a better way for you to start the new year with.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

bbcdon said:


> Buck, this is no way to treat people. Come clean and you will feel a lot better. I couldn't think of a better way for you to start the new year with.


No Buck here bbcdon (Senior Bird) - I am fully aware of the Buck character you are referring to from Mojave. I don't appreciate the connection you are inferring.
Everything happens for a reason - my theory is that my comments rub you the wrong way for whatever reason(maybe you are affiliated with the AIC) - and so you try to change the direction of the thread.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> *I have reread Warren's posts and I didn't see any accusations. What I have read is a speculation on his parts. And since he was not treated well with perhaps a small suggestion for better transparency, then obviously he would become more suspicious of things done.* You were lucky that you were there. The race event was then transparent to you. How about those that were not there? How can it be transparent for them? That was the question or topic raised by Warren. As I have read your posts it seems that you will do the same as your friend did who ran that one loft event.. You will not like your integrity to be questioned. Why? What is wrong with that? Even the running presidents of USA are questioned for their integrity. Even Supreme Court judges of this land are also questioned before they get their posts. How could you be different and with your friend? Perhaps if we know you and your friend, then we can have better trust. Until then *blindly trusting someone is not my sense of integrity*. In this day of age where we have identity thief and other stupid stuff *we want more security and transparency*. To say "just trust me" is rather too foolish to me now. Maybe in the past we can do that when the population is small and everyone seems to know everyone, but today we are more skeptical.
> 
> 
> I hope this heated debate is just a result of miscommunication because it is getting too personal.


 
Hello RodSD,

Thank you for taking the time to actually read my posts, and not just jumping to conclusions. That very famous President Reagan quote of "Trust but Verify" would seem appropriate for the One Loft Industry. Some of the folks running these things and their close supporters have disagreed. So, we should agree that we disagree on this matter, and not make it personal, nor get into name calling.

I do believe in the free market principals of capitalism. If this "America's International Challenge" One Loft event, provides the kind of pigeon racing opportunity that fanciers want, then they will be successful. Like every other business in this country, they will have to provide a level of service or a product that people are willing and able to pay for. There are now plenty of One Loft race events in the country to choose from, and it seems more are entering the business every year. Competition should go a long way in making these businesses more competitive. If transparency and openness is something that the customers want and demand, then those who provide it will be rewarded with more business.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Just do it like the Chinese. They make the Americans look like cheap players with their large amounts of money and the right securities with regards to cheating.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

AIC--I'm not sure all the names on the list will enter the number of birds they have listed.
Ganus & wife --15 each? --- 30 X $1,000 plus prech fee's.
BUT I do wish the Folks putting on the Race--GOOD LUCK.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

sky tx said:


> AIC--I'm not sure all the names on the list will enter the number of birds they have listed.
> Ganus & wife --15 each? --- 30 X $1,000 plus prech fee's.
> BUT I do wish the Folks putting on the Race--GOOD LUCK.


There's no perch fee from what I remember since their site isn't working for me right now. It's already part of the entry. As for ganus they put around 50 in the IF convention this year. Then they have 17 birds in the SCMDPR which it also a $1,000 a bird. And they enter a decent amount of birds in a bunch of the one loft races. So I see no reason for them not to put that many birds into what is being made into the biggest one loft race in this country. Atleast for this year and maybe for years to come if they do things the right way.


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## hutch (Apr 25, 2011)

Dont want to start a war with anyone but some of these notes are just to funny to pass up,
no one I repete no one gets a free entry ( not even one bird , I dont care who you are ) this is not a so called big pigeon OWNERS race, as some have implyed, it"s just a pigeon race , may the best bird win. I dont care who you are, what family of birds you fly, and I have never ask anyone in out race what family of birds they fly. I could care less.
everyone is welcome in this race, and besides I think everyone has pigeons in their loft capable of winning. as far as the personal invite, we sent out several thousand post cards and many ads in the pigeon digest, Frank & I thought we were personally inviting everyone. and everyone is welcome.
thank you for your time,I pray I did not offend anyone as thats not my wish.
there is so many good races out there today, If you dont get in the AIC race thats OK but please get in 1 or 2 one loft races, you"ll have so much fun.
your friend in the sport
good flying to all
Thank you
Danny Hutchins


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

hutch said:


> and many ads in the pigeon digest, Thank you Danny Hutchins


Hows that working out for you?


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

hutch said:


> Dont want to start a war with anyone but some of these notes are just to funny to pass up,
> no one I repete no one gets a free entry ( not even one bird , I dont care who you are ) this is not a so called big pigeon OWNERS race, as some have implyed, it"s just a pigeon race , may the best bird win. I dont care who you are, what family of birds you fly, and I have never ask anyone in out race what family of birds they fly. I could care less.
> everyone is welcome in this race, and besides I think everyone has pigeons in their loft capable of winning. as far as the personal invite, we sent out several thousand post cards and many ads in the pigeon digest, Frank & I thought we were personally inviting everyone. and everyone is welcome.
> thank you for your time,I pray I did not offend anyone as thats not my wish.
> ...


Well said.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Hello AIC particants, we had a difficult toss Monday and tuesday from 30 miles we believe most birds will return due to the many tosses already on these birds including 10 tosses from 20 miles, Frank would pull his hair out if he had any. Frank will have a complete up to date inventory up by sunday evening. starting Monday 8/29/11 all tosses will be live for everyone to keep up with their birds. Danny and Frank feel everything is right on target at this time we are expecting a great race in November. Thanks For Your Support Good luck to all Danny & Frank


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

hi mr. hutch,

how are the birds doing so far? i went to your site and was a little bit surprised about the % of losses. 313 birds out of 831 birds entered.

http://www.wincompanion.com/one_unikon/birds/listLostBirds.php?skin=aicrace

was Irene a big factor that contributed to these losses. we would appreciate if you can share us some feedback on what's going on so far.

thanks,

kalapati
San Diego

http://blubarloft.dyndns.biz:81/jview.htm







hutch said:


> Dont want to start a war with anyone but some of these notes are just to funny to pass up,
> no one I repete no one gets a free entry ( not even one bird , I dont care who you are ) this is not a so called big pigeon OWNERS race, as some have implyed, it"s just a pigeon race , may the best bird win. I dont care who you are, what family of birds you fly, and I have never ask anyone in out race what family of birds they fly. I could care less.
> everyone is welcome in this race, and besides I think everyone has pigeons in their loft capable of winning. as far as the personal invite, we sent out several thousand post cards and many ads in the pigeon digest, Frank & I thought we were personally inviting everyone. and everyone is welcome.
> thank you for your time,I pray I did not offend anyone as thats not my wish.
> ...


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

Looks like they have to iron out a few issues (whether the clock malfunction or literally 438 birds are still left according to last 40 mile toss inventory). 

In the absence of any regular news updates on the website, one can only speculate:

New race, new loft, new location, new to the area (don't know how much experience Frank or Danny has with regard to the chosen race location), Irene, recent earthquake activity, numerous storms, health, stressed birds - who knows?

Whatever the reason, with approximately 52% (438/831) of the birds left after the last 40 mile toss should raise some red flags. We have to wait to see if there will be a News Update as to why the birds are experiencing difficulty.

With these kinds of losses (ASSUMING that the inventory is accurate), would it make sense to back off on the training and allow these birds to de-stress? However Frank has been advertised as a "tough" trainer and with schedules to meet, will we see anything different?






,


kalapati said:


> hi mr. hutch,
> 
> how are the birds doing so far? i went to your site and was a little bit surprised about the % of losses. 313 birds out of 831 birds entered.
> 
> ...


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## koukoukou (May 12, 2011)

Well from all the grinding and losses and some tough races I managed to get a good one She placed 9th at the 350 and 2nd overall avg. speed Against some of the toughest competitors in the Country and Germany. Being a rookie to the oneloft racing scene it's been a great year! Just glad that my birds could compete!


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

koukoukou said:


> Well from all the grinding and losses and some tough races I managed to get a good one She placed 9th at the 350 and 2nd overall avg. speed Against some of the toughest competitors in the Country and Germany. Being a rookie to the oneloft racing scene it's been a great year! Just glad that my birds could compete!


Congratulations to you!!!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Frank runs a good race. at 1k a pop even the big guys might have a hard time buying this race. Nice loft going up. See Frank is building a larger version of his loft.


I think at 30 birds Ganus is working on it.


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