# Need Advice About a Pigeon's Nest On My Window



## Friend John

Hi, everyone.

TL;DR

Two Rock Pigeons are growing a healthy squab on my window sill. I like the birds but the nest smells really bad and is dirty, as one would expect. The way the nest is set up, it is very possible for mites and all kind of unsanitary bacteria from the droppings or whatnot to enter my home. I will not interfere wit the nest, and let the pigeons raise their squab, but once it fledged, I don't know what to do with the nest. I'd like to have the pigeons back (or remain, in case they'll just stay) but that old nest has got to go. If I clear the nest (the whole area must be cleaned), will the pigeons come back and build another one? This will be fine by me, until I'll have to clean it up again, but since it doesn't begin to smell right away, I think I can live with the nesting, hatching and fledging cycle. I wouldn't mind even building the pigeons a new nest after I cleaned the old one, since it is only made out of small branches, but I doubt it will work - I read the pigeons have their on process of doing that. 

So I could really use some advice, what do to?


Long version:

A little more than a month ago, Two Rock Pigeons began nesting on my window sill. I immediately took a liking to them, not in the least due to the most excellent location they chose - it was hard not to appreciate their cleverness in choosing this spot (if we ignore the human element, which in this case is me, so it's all good). The setup is as follows:

There is the most outward layer which is composed of shutters, then there is the mesh net, and then the glass window. All three can are sectioned into two parts and each part can be moved horizontally. The pigeons used a gap between the shutters and the mesh net, and made their nest between the part of the shutters that are completely closed, and the glass window. This gives the effect of an ant farm, only with pigeons instead of ants, and I can watch all of their activities, which I found very fascinating and endearing.

Anyway, the pigeons made their nest, laid an egg (just one) and incubated it. Since then, the egg has hatched and there is a squab about 15 days old (I think) the pigeons are taking care of, and I get to see the whole thing, including feeding and whatnot. The squab looks healthy and is doing just fine. 

I really like this setup and would love to keep hosting the birds, but there is only one problem - the nest really stinks. As you could imagine, there is bird droppings everywhere and there is no direct wind at the nest since it is located behind a section of closed shutters that act as a wall. Again, from the pigeons' perspective, it is a really smart location. No access to anything that can threaten them. The only downside is that it is in a rather narrow groove, about 10cm wide, with an extra 7cm of room at most that can be used only if the pigeons elevate themselves from the small trench they are in, which means they can't spread or flap their wings when they are in the nest--they need to walk along the ensconced area until they get to the window sill. Not sure if it'll be good for an energetic squab once it fully grows, but for now it's fine. But I digress.

What makes the nest location so smart also makes it smell really bad and it invades my home, and mites, and bacteria from the droppings and the dirty nest could enter my home. I won't interfere with the nest until the squab is fully grown and fledges, but there is no way around cleaning it all up and discarding the nest. Questions:

1. I've read that pigeons might lay an egg at the same nest even before the squab fledges. That would be a problem because the old nest must go. If I clear the old nest, will the pigeons come back (I want them to).

2. If I remove the old nest, clean up the area, and make them another nest (which is just a bed of small branches), will they use it?

3. If they lay another egg and I clear the nest and clean the area, touch the new egg (there is no egg right now, just trying to think ahead) in order to clean, then make a new nest and place the egg in it, will they come back? Will they incubate the egg?

4. I've read that Rock Pigeons may build a new nest elsewhere while they are raising the squab (when it is close to fledging) and then they'll lay their eggs in the new nest. Is that true? Will they then come back later to the old nest to lay eggs in it again? If They leave for a few weeks and I clean the nest, will they come back and build a new one at the same place (or use the one I'll build them)?

5. What do I do if the pigeons don't leave the old nest and just lay more eggs in it? The old nest has to be cleaned, there is just no way around it.

Congrats for making it all the way thorough, and thanks for you help!


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## Marina B

Can you maybe post a photo of the nest? Best will be to wait until the babies have fledged and then clean the whole area. If new eggs get laid, you will just have to remove them until the area gets cleaned. If you build a new nest, they might go elsewhere. Why don't you leave the nest as it is and just give a good clean around it? Not all pigeons have mites and no bacteria will enter your home.


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## Friend John

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I will definitely wait until the babies have fledged. I just hope there will be a small reprieve after that so that I could clean the area.

I took the pictures while the parents were away. As you can see from the picture [I hope - the first picture comes up rotated the wrong way, sorry], we are talking about a very tight space and all the bird droppings just can't be healthy and it'll be very easy for mites or any tiny insect to enter my home because there are large enough gaps that were made as grooves to move the blinds, net and windows. Ever since they nested I also stopped using my treadmill so they won't scare and leave. Will they still scare if I put up some sort of draping in the room at the area the birds are, so they won't scare of the movement?


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## Marina B

Can't believe they found that spot to built a nest and raise the baby! The area really is not that dirty, I expected much worse. Just leave things the way it is for now and don't put up anything that might scare the parents. You don't want them to stop feeding the baby now. So what's on the other side of the shutters? Is there a balcony or at least something for the baby to walk on once he starts to follow the parents. He also needs room to excercise his wings once he gets bigger.


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## Friend John

Yes, this spot is so clever! There is absolutely nothing that can get to them. I'm on the 2nd floor so nothing can get there - no cats or anything else. On the other side of the shutters is a very narrow ledge of a few centimeters. The good thing is that under that ledge there is a small roof of sorts that extends from the apartment below, so even if the squab falls by accident [once he's grown and can get out], he'll probably still be fine.

There is definitely no room for spreading wings where the nest is, though. Once the squab is grown, he'd have to walk along the shutters like his parents do, and, if he'd face outward [face toward the direction of the shutters] he'd have the horizontal space to spread and exercise his wings, on a small ledge to walk on, though it is quite narrow, but extends all along the window. There are also some vertical steel bars [once used for hanging laundry] he could hop on, like his parents do, and on them he'll have all the space he'll need to exercise his wings too, but it all requires a bit of precision, which his parents seem to manage. Again, the good part is that if it'll fall he'll probably still be ok due to the platform beneath.

I would have liked to feed them but the whole setup is so constricted that unless I open the glass window from the baby's side [which I won't do], it is really a challenge to do anything without scaring the birds away by moving either of the shutters, nets and glass window. The picture may not show it but it is actually a very wide window which stretches more than 4 meters wide.

The area might not look that dirty, but it does smell. After the fledging, would it help if I cleaned the area, save some of the branches, and line the place with newspaper? Would they come back then? I really hope they won't lay an egg right away, before I can get rid of the smell.


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## Marina B

Yes, you can put down newspapers and make another nest on top of it. Cleaning will be so much easier in the future then. Hopefully they will continue to breed there. Well, if they don't come back, then at least you were able to watch this little one being raised. Not many people have that opportunity. Enjoy.


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## Friend John

A quick update:

The squab is growing nicely, and is quite big right now. I noticed him flapping his wings in the nest, probably just stretching his limbs and releasing some energy. Since his location is so confined, and since there is only a narrow ledge for him to walk on when he'll finally walk outside, I managed to fix a small platform for him and his parents right at the exit to the outside world from where they are. I took a flat piece of wood and secured it to the horizontal metal bars outside my window [his parents used to sometimes stand on them, but there are plenty of bars left], and now when the squab will go outside, he'll be able easily hop onto the platform where he'll have plenty of room to exercise his wings without worrying about falling, and all three of the squab and his parents will be able to stand on it. I'll also be able to put some food and water on it, which is another plus. I really hope it'll work.

Also, it rained a bit over the past few days. While the nest is expertly located to avoid any water, the small gap through which the pigeons enter and exit is still exposed to the elements, and some of the water could travel on the small channels and get to the nest and wet it [and did, but just barely, this time]. While it is not a big problem at the moment since it is summer and the pigeons got through these rain spurts just fine, I think that after the squab fledged, I'll have to lay the nest on something to slightly elevate it [even 1cm of elevation would do] so the water won't touch and dampen the nest, while I do some cleaning.

I have some uncooked oats [https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0889/8624/products/6150028_1024x1024.jpg?v=1434947117] - is that a safe thing to give the pigeons to eat uncooked, right out of the box? How about uncooked rice?


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## Marina B

If you want to feed them, rather put down a good seed mix for pigeons. However, putting out food will also attract other pigeons and if the baby is out there alone they might attack and can seriously hurt him. I think providing a safe spot for them to nest is more than what most people would do. The parents know where to find food, and once the baby start flying they will also teach him where to go for food.


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## Marina B

Your neighbours might also not feel the same way as you do about pigeons. So, if there's a real large gathering of pigeons fighting for food - this might become a future problem.


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## Friend John

Those are good points. There is small wooded area right outside, with trees and bushes and whatnot, so I'm sure the pigeons will find food quite easily and your point is well taken. Overall, there is no shortage of food for pigeons in cities. I do wonder about where the pigeons find clean water though, especially in the summer.

I noticed that since I installed the flat platform, the pigeons actively avoid it and move around it. They used to sit on the steel bars in the spot on which it is laid but now they'll just move to the side of the platform and sit close by. I took your advice and didn't put food on it, but I did put water (which I replace daily) but they don't seem to touch it or get close. I'll try to build a proper water feeder and see if they'll prefer it better than standing water in a receptacle. I didn't notice any other birds come near the platform either. 

This may be stupid, but since I don't know much about pigeons, I'm worried that when the squab will finally start trying to fly, he won't be able to get back up to the nest on the second floor of the building. Is that a legitimate concern, or will nature take its course and he'll be able to reach this height right away?


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## Marina B

They will eventually become used to the platform, as long as they keep on feeding the baby that's all good. You can add some apple cider vinegar (5ml to 1l drinking water) to the drinking water twice of 3 times a week. This helps to keep them healthy.

Sometimes the babies do leave the nest a bit too soon and will have trouble getting back up. It's easier to fly down than upwards again. Hopefully there aren't cats around that might get to him if that happens. If you do see the baby sitting on the ground, just pick him up and put him back in the nest. Touching him won't stop the parents to continue feeding him.


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## Friend John

Actually, there are quite a few cats around, and dogs, and even jackals and at least one family of wild boars (I know it sounds strange but it's true! Right in the city! I've seen them multiple times). 

Once the squab begins his flight tryouts, I'll keep an eye out, but I doubt if I'll be able to spot him if he touches ground because of the terrain he'll be flying into, which has a lot of bushes and the like. There are trees very close by, though, so he might\should be able to fly down from the nest area in a downward trajectory and still land on a tree, I hope. I'll go down looking for him if it looks like he's earthbound.

I think there's a bit more time for it though. While the squab is growing nicely, he looks like a 12 day old squab from pictures I've seen. I may have messed up counting the days. He's covered in feathers but they are still not fully grown. He's doing fine though.

I'll get some apple cider vinegar, and maybe put some crushed garlic in the water until then? Anyway, it's a relief to know that his parents will still take care of him even if I touch him (which I'll only do in a case of emergency, no need to interfere). 

I have to say I'm quite taken by these pigeons. I've really grown attached to them.

On a sidenote, I once went down to empty the trash at around 3am and it was all dark, and I wasn't all that observant, having not expecting anything out of the ordinary, when suddenly, right as I step out of the building entrance, a huge shadow just leaps out from 2m in front of me and into the big patch of wild bushes and trees in the main patch of land in front of the building. I actually felt the vibrations in the earth, it was so heavy. It had a vague shape of a big wild boar (it happened so fast) and then I finally put two and two together and realized for certain what those squealing sounds I hear at night every once in a while. Since then I had managed to get a good look from my window at around the same time, and could see a cute family of wild boars, with a grown male, a grown female (I'm guessing) and quite a few small and cute little piglets. At least they look cute from a distance, I wouldn't try to engage them when they are with their babies as they could get protective, even though they all scare easy at the sight of man movement.


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## Marina B

Crushed garlic in the drinking water will also do them good. Unfortunately pigeons are a foodsource to so many predators out there and they breed so often cause the survival rate of the babies are so slim once they fledge.

Let's hope yours will be one of the lucky ones, still another 2 weeks to go. At least he has got a human friend that will be on the lookout for him.


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## Friend John

*Update (Squab still growing, all is well)*

Just wanted to post a short update and reassure that both parents and squab are doing well. I still haven't seen the parents use the platform or the water but yesterday the entire receptacle was empty and some water was around it, so I guess at least someone used it, probably the parents. Still haven't purchased apple vinegar so for now I go with the crushed garlic soaked in the water for 30 minutes, then remove it and leave the water outside.

The parents are very dedicated and still check on the squab multiple times during the day, feed him several times a day, and his mother stays with him during the night. They are always close by, and sometimes they even cram themselves all together for a few short minutes at the same spot, or have one of the parents feed the squab while the other waits right outside the opening.

It is a shame the parents are still rather skittish whenever they see me but I suppose it's for the best, as it is imperative that feral pigeons remain afraid of people. The squab is a bit different though. It used to be, when his parents would leave him alone during the day and I would come very close to look at him, that he'd stand up, probably afraid or the creature on the other side of the glass. But now, he doesn't seem to mind and just sits there, totally nonchalant. Will he stay close by after fledging? Will he come back to this spot again once he's grown and takes flight? I'll miss all of them if\when they leave. I know I started this thread because of the smell and hygienic concerns but I don't care about the smell anymore. The reason for cleaning the droppings once they leave is now because I'd like to avoid the emergence of parasites harmful for the birds that can accumulate if the nest is re-used several times. All the birds seem fine though, they don't itch or scratch or anything. 


Anyway, here is a picture from today (18/06/2018).


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## Marina B

He's really gorgeous, and has grown quite a bit in a weeks time. By standing up when he sees you, he is trying to make himself look "bigger" to scare you off. Once he has fledged and independant of the parents, they might chase him away when they want to start a new nest in the same spot. 

One gets so attached to them when they are so small, you really are very fortunate to be able to watch him grow up. Glad the smell don't bother you any more, enjoy!


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## Friend John

Yes, I think he's (I'm just guessing his gender) so beautiful! Pigeons in general are beautiful birds, but I have a feeling that this one, once fully grown, might really stand out.

Thanks for explaining about him standing on his legs when I approach, I had a feeling it is something like that. He doesn't do that anymore and seems to be used to me and continues to sit, unbothered when I approach him now. I guess it stands to reason--the only world he has seen so far has been the inside of my apartment. He's into quite a shock once he gets to see the outside world.

I am very lucky to have experienced this, but even more lucky that it has gone so smoothly (up until now, knock on wood). It made me appreciate all of the members of this forum so much more for what you all do, as I'm not sure if I would have been equipped to handle things if something went wrong. I decided to be prepared, though, and have purchased some pigeon food, and I'll acquire some syringes and pigeon formula (for young squabs, for hand-feeding) as soon as I can, so I'll be prepared in the future, should anything goes wrong with future nestlings.

Something interesting happened last evening: After tending to the squab, the parents sat next to each other outside, watching the sunset as they do from time to time. Then, they both flew together and didn't come back the entire night. The father came back to feed the squab this morning and checks in on him, staying close by, and I'm sure the mother will come back in the evening as usual. I wonder why did they fly and spent the entire night away. Could it be it was their version of date night? 

Also, I saw the male scouting the opposite side of the window, which is quite long - imagine the same nest location only 3 meters away, to the right. Is it possible for two nests of two different couples (I'm thinking grown squab with a nest at the right and parents with the current nest on the left. We can dream!) to be about 2-3 meters apart, or is that too close?


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## Friend John

*New egg...*

Well, maybe the parents did have a date night recently, because after the female came back the following evening, she stayed almost the entire day with the squab too. I thought it weird she's pulling a double-duty (the male also came and spent a lot of time with both), until I saw she laid another egg. So... what do I do with that? Wouldn't a dirty nest be harmful to the new baby? I hoped I'd have the time to clean up a bit  I hope there isn't another egg coming within the next few hours\days since taking care of two squabs in that space might get a bit crowded and a bit of a challenge for the parents. Is there a risk of the squab pecking the egg and breaking it? Anything I can do to help the situation?


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## Marina B

She will probably lay the next egg tomorrow and then starts incubating it. So for the next 2 1/2 weeks the eggs will be incubated. During that time the baby will have fledged and start to follow the one parent around while the other one keeps the new babies warm. 

I would just leave things the way they are. You can remove the eggs, but then they might find another spot elsewhere to built a nest. All those droppings will eventually form a nice rounded "nest" and won't be harmful to you or the new babies.

This is all quite interesting. I never thought they lay eggs so soon again, thought they waited until the first lot of babies fledge, and then start laying again.


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## Friend John

What's even more interesting is that when the mother left for a little while (she came back), the squab incubated the egg in her absence! Pigeons are so cool and clever.

I'll refrain from interfering, but I worry the mother will lose too much calcium. I also worry because summer will enter its peak pretty soon and it might get too hot and humid in there, even though the only time there is a direct sun on the nest\shutters location is in the afternoon when it is not as hot. I hope they'll all be ok.


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## Marina B

She will have enough calcium, their bodies are designed to lay eggs and breed. Putting out water close by like you are doing, will help during the hot days.


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## Friend John

*2nd egg*

As predicted, the female laid another egg. I'm concerned, however, since the first egg hasn't been cared for like the one that hatched the squab, and neither is the second one, it seems. The male has been absent and the mother doesn't incubate the eggs during the day. She still comes to the vicinity of the nest during the day every once in a while, but often just stands outside. I worry something happened to the male. 

Is there something I can do to help? It will be very hard on the female if the male doesn't return. Do the eggs even have a chance of hatching under these circumstances? Should I make thing easier by leaving her food close by? Is there a way for me to help incubating the eggs somehow, and will the female be able to take care of the squabs if they hatch? Will she even tend to them if I interfere?


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## Marina B

I don't think she will continue to incubate the eggs if something happened to the male. Just leave the eggs for now, maybe the male will return soon. It's really very hard to rear a baby pigeon from day 1, so many things can go wrong. So don't even try to have the eggs incubated.

As long as she keep on feeding the baby for now. If the male does not return, then you can start putting down food for her so that it will be easier for her to rear the baby herself.


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## Friend John

Thank for the quick advice. I'll wait until tomorrow and if the male doesn't return I'll start putting out food close by. BTW, do you think the squab is ready for regular pigeon food and not only pigeon milk? I won't do anything for the time being but I want to be prepared to step in right away if I feel he's being neglected or starving.


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## Friend John

OK, that's strange. I just saw the male - he's in there right now with the female and squab. So why aren't the eggs being incubated regularly? Could it be they were laid too quickly, meaning before the squab fledged, and that is why they are not tended to?


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## Marina B

Can't answer all your questions. The parents know what to do. You will only need to intefere when the babies either get sick, or not getting fed. For now, just keep your distance and enjoy watching them grow.


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## Friend John

*Update*

Since the last post, the parents have started to incubate the eggs in the usual regiment, with the female being relieved during the day by the male, so it looks like the eggs are being cared for, and will probably hatch.

The squab is almost grown, and is very beautiful and cute. The thing is, he's very reluctant to leave the nest area. The only time he ever gets outside is when his father comes during the day to replace the mother and feed the squab. At that point, the squab will wait at the entrance but won't venture outside and the father will essentially use the feeding to grab him by the beak and pull him outside - which is the only time he is entirely outside. But as soon as the feeding ends, the squab just runs quickly back to the nest area. He just seems scared of the outside and won't leave any other time. He does stand around near the entrance during the day every now and then, but never ventures out. 

I cleared as much space outside as possible, so there is no fear of falling, and there is also the platform which gives extra space, but he just runs back to the nest, as if scared of the sun and the outside world. At this rate, he'll still be in the nest when the eggs hatch. Is there any way to help the family? The little guy is getting restless.

Also, the male does use the water receptacle (finally! though the female still avoids the platform and the water and the squab is still in the nest, so he's yet to drink pure water since he was hatched), which now contains apple cider vinegar (I don't know if it is organic, bought the only one they had, by Rauch). The receptacle itself is 25cm long, 15cm wide and 7cm deep. It will fit a pigeon if it chooses to take a bath. I wonder if there is any way to make them use it as a bath? I can't create ripples in it to attract them at the moment and creating shading is also a bit tricky.


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## Marina B

Maybe he is scared to leave. He does not have the advantage that other babies have: growing up in a nest outside and able to watch the world around them as they grow up. But he will eventually leave when ready. Nothing you can do regarding the bathing, they will if they feel the need to.


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## Jay3

It's actually quite normal for them to lay more eggs while their first baby is so young. Often they will go off to start a new nest when their first babies are only a couple of weeks old, sometimes even younger. The male then comes back to feed. In this case where they have laid again in the same place, they may start to push the first baby out when the eggs get ready to hatch. 
I would dust the inside of the window with Sevin Dust or a Permethrin dust, just to make sure no mites come into the house. Most wild birds have mites or lice. You can just dust around the edges and tracks of the window. Very interesting...……….and you are right. It is like an ant farm, only with pigeons. LOL.


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## Friend John

I've grown very attached to this family, so I was thinking:

Perhaps I could get a cage (and put it on a something so it will be at the same height as the window) with two doors--one door will always be open and will connect to the edge of the glass window, which I will move to the side a little bit so the pigeons could go in and out of it from where they are into the cage whenever they want, and keep the other side of the window as it is now, so they could go to the outside world whenever they want too. The other door will be for me so I could tend to the inside of the cage.

Essentially, they could come and go outside as they please, just as they do now, only at the left side they could also enter a more roomy cage, where they will have more space, food and water, and a better place to stay at winter. The rain always comes at an angle and hits the windows, and the tracks of the window will create a channel which will cause water to to move towards the nest and wet it. I thought about elevating the nest by putting something in the channel so it will be slightly elevated (even 1cm will do) so the water won't get to them, but since they're always there, I didn't get the chance yet. 

I know they are feral birds and my intent isn't to domesticate them, which is a bad idea with grown ferals, but rather to help them and keep them safe, healthy, warm and fed, while they could still do whatever they want and fly where they please whenever they want, as I think it should be. Is this a bad idea? I mean, they're already nesting in my house (just about), so they might as well get better conditions. And I'll get to watch them and manage the smell and hygiene.


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## Jay3

If you disturb the nest and move it at all, they will most likely abandon it. They will find another place to nest. Eventually they will probably leave and go elsewhere anyway.


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## Friend John

Yeah, I figured if I moved the nest they'll probably leave. My thinking was letting things play out with the current clutch and not touch or interfere with anything, but after the two eggs hatch and the squabs are fully grown and fledge, then I'll setup the cage without touching the nest, and see if they use it instead. If they do, then I'll remove the nest. When\if there will be a moment where there are no eggs, squabs or birds at the current nest, I'll want to at least clean the area a little bit, and maybe put something under the nest to prevent water from reaching it in the winter. By the time the current eggs hatch and the new squabs will fledge, it will already be fall (or just about), so hopefully the pigeons will slow their breeding a little bit so there'll be time to do it.

If you look at the picture with the squab standing and his mother's head on the right, the squab is standing near the edge of the wall--there is a small white line that shows the wall itself. Imagine that the window is open to about where the mother's head is, and a cage connects there at the same height. So we're really talking about extending their existing living area, and perhaps moving the whole thing maybe 20-30 cm, though ideally they'll move in on their own when they notice there is more space to operate in. Will it help if I wore latex gloves while doing it, to avoid attaching my smell to the area?


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## Jay3

Adding your scent won't matter. But they may like things just as they are, and may not like any changes also. Hard to know how they think.


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## Friend John

*Update (He Flies!)*

Since the last update, the squab has gathered his nerves and stepped outside. He now spends a lot of time outside, exploring the immediate surroundings by hopping and walking on thin metal bars. He could use to improve his balance a bit but he's doing just fine. And.. he flies! Not far away and not many times, and just to the roof of the building, but he's done so a few times. I suspect that the local flock resides there at least in part due to the cooing of other pigeons nearby and their flying very close by. So far he went flying alone, but today I saw him land together with his father.

In one of his returns, he landed together with another pigeon of a similar size (he's smaller and more slender than his parents so far) but probably a little bit older, and they sat side by side until his father landed near by, and then slowly walked across the metal bar, and then lunged and flew right at the companion pigeon, scaring her away. In general, the father is acting like an enforcer, and whenever another pigeons lands close by, he'd even come out of the nest completely, coo at it, and then fly at it, which seems to work. But it does look like the squab will make friends. And of course he will, he's so very pretty.

Anyway, the squab and the father make good use of the platform, and I started putting out pigeon food for the family so they'll be in good shape for taking care of the two soon-to-hatch squabs. While the father and squab both eat and drink with no hesitation, the mother still avoids it completely. When she lands, she goes straight to the nest and when she leaves she goes around it. She is very afraid of people, myself included, even though I try not to get too close and move slowly when I'm near. I would have hoped that by now she'd at least get used to me just a little bit. Oh, well. I tried to leave food at the route she takes when she enters and leaves but the squab always eats it...

Speaking of food, the pigeons tend to not touch the pellets in the food mix. Since I've read it's very good for them, is there a way to make them eat it? I think you can even see in the pictures that the pellets are untouched. I also tried to mix the food with a bit of olive oil and cinnamon but they didn't go for it at all. Today I've chopped fresh carrots to corn kernel size but they don't seem to like it either.

Also, I've noticed that unfortunately there are some insects on the squab. I don't think they're mites though. They look like flies, only a bit smaller, flatter and more translucent, light-brown color. They can fly, so when the squab preens, they'd fly and land on him again. I managed to count 3 of them on him at one time, and have seen them go under his feathers. I'm assuming that if he has them, his parents do too, and when the next squabs hatch, they'll get it too. Since the birds are feral, is there anything I can do to help? I can't get too close or they'll run away (mostly the mother, the squab doesn't mind getting close).

Last question: will the squab grow any more, or will he stay at the current dimensions? I ask because his parents are bigger, particularly the father. He'll be beautiful either way, this slender look makes him look very gentle and graceful.


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## Jay3

Glad they are all doing well. No there is no way you can make them eat what they don't want to, and sounds like pigeon flies, but nothing you can do about that either if you cannot go near them. They would need to be sprayed well or dusted with a Permethrin powder. Nice bird. Yes he will grow more. He's still a baby.


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## Marina B

These pigeons have really found the best spot to built a nest and raise their babies with you caring so much for them. Thanks for helping them.


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## Friend John

*Squab Missing (?)*

I left home yesterday at around 17:00. The squab was with one of his parents, as usual. Sundown is at about 19:30. When I came home at around 21:00, when it is completely dark, he wasn't there (and didn't come all night, not that I expected him to). I assumed he left with his father when it came time for the shift change, and that he spent the night where the father usually does. I also assumed he'll return during daytime, since he's never left for so long, and the spot near the nest is a reliable food source if nothing else. 

I spotted the father at 6:30 in the morning, checking in and eating the food I leave for the birds. The squab wasn't with him. It is now 13:30 and the father came to replace his mate incubating the eggs. He's now incubating, and still the squab hasn't shown up, and I'm getting worried. There are no predatory birds around here so that's not a concern. And he can fly, so I don't think any animals got him either. If he came by, I'd see him. How long until I really need to start worrying? Don't fledged pigeons still stay with the same flock? If he's alright, should I expect to see him back, for feeding if for nothing else?


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## Friend John

Well, one of the eggs just hatched, and there is a live, tiny egg-sized yellow squab. Hopefully the other egg will hatch soon. Maybe that is the reason for the grown Squab's absence?


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## Marina B

The one that fledged does not need his parents anymore. He can fly and eat by himself and will eventually find a mate and settle down to raise his own family. I'm sure you will still see him from time to time.

Congrats with the newborn, the cycle continues. Hopefully the new ones will also do well, just like the older one.


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## Friend John

Thank you for the reassuring words. I have to say the past few days really weighed heavy on me and I was very worried and sad. I just wasn't prepared for it to happen without warning\sign and I miss the squab very much.

Yesterday I saw 3 different grown pigeons (the fourth was the cute and small laughing dove he hanged with last week) land and eat from the food I leave to the couple that nest in my window. I feared other pigeons are encroaching.

But today I woke early and saw the squab land at the window along with the same 3 birds (EDIT- and also now in the afternoon too with a "new" pigeon and another one he landed with this morning - a mighty beefy neck on that one. Looks quite big for a rock pigeon). While the other three kept their distance, as if forming a personal guard for the squab, the squab himself approached without worry and ate like he always did. It really made me happy to see that he's OK and that he was accepted into the flock, and among friends. Life is hard for pigeons out there, but now I know he'll be as fine as a pigeon can be in the urban environment. So while I'm still sad to part with him, I'm happy that nature worked as it should, now that I know he's well and with other birds, and with the skills he needs to survive out there; that he'll be well equipped to find food and find a mate and start his own family, like you said. Who knows, maybe he'll choose my window again.

I hope I'll still see him. He'll always have food and water waiting for him outside my window. I read that pigeons do not migrate; I assume parents and fledged squabs are part of the same flock? 

I hope it'll be easier to part ways with the current clutch (the second egg has now also hatched), if hopefully it will be reared with no problems. Anyway, I'm happy he's well and that he'll be well. But I'm still sad to part ways with him and will always miss him dearly.


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## Jay3

I'm glad he's been back. That's great. Yes, they become part of the parents flock. Maybe you will get to see him come back with a mate some day. That would be nice. Thanks for the update.


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## Friend John

*update*

Just wanted to update on the new clutch. 

The two new squabs are now about 8-10 days old. They are both doing well and grow nicely and rapidly. Both are at a very similar size, so I guess it means they are both well fed and that the parents don't feed one over the other. The father is feeding them right now. They also move around a bit when their parents don't sit on them (actually, they move even then, which makes the parent to lose balance a bit. It's funny). By now, the parents started to takes a few breaks during their shifts and the squabs are left alone for a bit, which is fine. Unfortunately, the mother is very set in her ways and still avoids the platform with the food and water altogether. The father makes good use of it though.

I started to notice the pigeon flies that infest the adults on the squabs too, and they don't even have feathers yet. So far, I've seen one fly on each. At this point, I do have the ability to spread some Sevin Dust or a Permethrin dust in the nest and on the squabs when the parents aren't around. The question is, should I? I don't want to cause the parents to leave their babies. Also, since I won't be able to dust the parents, even if I rid the squabs of flies now, they'll probably get them again form their parents or their flock once they fledge. So I'd appreciate any advice.

As for the first squab that had already fledged (I guess I should call him squab #1 or just The Squab), he comes around usually very early in the morning, along with 3-4 other pigeons. Today he landed with his usual 3 companions, plus his father. Unfortunately, he seems to have become more scared of me, or probably people in general. If he flies straight to the platform area and sees me standing close by, he just lands and takes right off again.  But I suppose fearing humans will serve him well. I just wish he'd at least be willing to land and eat when I'm around to watch. I do wonder if he ever lands with his mate there - how will I know it's his mate? Anyway, he seems to be doing ok, which makes me happy. He still sounds like a squeeze toy.

I don't know if the pigeons plan on staying at the nest for the winter. If they do, I'll have to find some way to put out food and water outside, which will be tricky with the wind and rain.

Here is a picture of the squabs from today:


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## Friend John

*Update*

Just a quick update:

The squabs are about 3 weeks old now, and are doing well. One of them is very loud and active (the whiter one) and the other is abnormally quiet (the darker one). I'll chalk it down to different personalities, unless somebody knows of a reason. But they are both growing nicely and look healthy. 

After months of avoiding the platform with food and water, the mother finally saw the father eating and decided to join, and is now, finally, using the amenities, so I can finally stop worrying that they won't have enough food to feed both squabs (though they managed very well anyway). I also reinforced the platform better with steel wires (coated in plastic) that are now holding it steady, and got rid of all the rope, so it is a much cleaner surface (added picture with both parents eating). I also noticed that they are finally eating the pellets too. They always eat everything but the pellets but once that is all that's left, they eat it too.

I try to give them other food other than pigeon mix but they aren't going for it. They don't go for chopped carrots, or for crushed pecan nuts (shell removed, of course). It's a problem leaving fruits and vegetables outside because while there isn't a direct sun shining on the area until the afternoon, it is still always in the sun and fruits and vegetables won't last long. I tried leaving some lettuce and it spoiled very quickly and didn't draw any interest.

I also changed their water receptacle to a smaller one, since they didn't use the bigger one for bathing, so there wasn't a need for it. I'd still welcome some advice on what kind of dish I could put outside that would make them want to take a bath in it.

Both parents chase away other birds from the immediate area and away from the food, including squab #1  Is it normal for parents to chase away their grown children after they had already fledged? Squab #1 has grown nicely, but is still smaller than his companions, and I'm also starting to think it's a female (he's\she's on the right, next to one of his companions).

Last night both parents took the night off and may have had another "date night." They both returned early in the morning to feed the squabs and resumed their regular routines, but with the squabs being probably around two weeks from fledging, I wouldn't be surprised if in two weeks or so I'll wake up one day to see another egg.

Anyway, I'm very lucky that both pigeons are excellent parents so outside of the persistent issue of pigeon flies, things have gone very well.


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## Marina B

Glad all your pigeons are doing well. Will be interesting to see if more eggs will get laid..... Then the whole cycle starts all over again.


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## Friend John

Those little guys sure grow quickly. Almost all the yellow fuzz is gone and they finally conquered their fear of taking the small jump from the window ledge to the platform,and were probably surprised at how easy it was. They learn quickly and after eating small seeds I left them at the entrance, they are now eating on the platform and drinking as well, which is good for me, since the squeaking has been significantly reduced when they are next to their parents (the only time they squeak). I bet they'll start flying within a week.

Their mother hasn't been spending the nights with them for the past week, and leaves them alone, spending the nights somewhere else. But both parents come early in the morning every day and spend a lot of time with them during the day, before they depart at sunset.

The male has been doing something strange in the past few days: his mate is right outside, along with the squabs, and for some reason he goes into the nest (which is empty), all the way to the end where it meets the wall, and coos, while he knows everyone is outside. After a while he stops and joins them outside again. Actually, he coos even when both squabs sit in the nest next to him. I wonder what it means.

Anyway, here's one photo of the entire family (minus squab #1). They might all be leaving soon, so I might as well post it while I still get to watch them.


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## Marina B

Now that's a really nice photo! Handsome family! The male is cooing for the female to attract her to the nest and to lay eggs. If you see them mating, then you know the whole cycle will soon starts again.


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## cwebster

Great photo! Thank you for sharing it.


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## Friend John

*Squab Missing*

The squabs, who do everything together, flew together today for the first time (that I know of). They flew at the same time next to each other, and without the parents. It happened a little before sunset. They came back after 30-45 minutes or so, and then flew together again, a bit before it got dark. One of them came back after no more than 10 minutes, and the other (the smaller one) hasn't come back at all. I don't think anything managed to get him in that 10-minute span (and I doubt he even landed on the ground, he most likely flew to another building or a nearby tree at worst), but I'm worried. I would have expected both of them to come back together. Now It's dark and only one squab is in the nest and he's never been apart from his brother, and their parents have stopped spending the night with them too (they still spend a lot of time together during the day, though). Nothing I can do for either of them now but wait and see what happens tomorrow morning and if the missing squab comes back. Is that common for squabs to fledge at the same time, and for only one of them to come back?


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## Friend John

Unfortunately, morning came and the squab did not return. Usually the morning is very busy with much activity and many birds coming to the window, and he was not one of them. I was hoping he had spent the night with his parents but they came back and he didn't. I went looking for him twice but couldn't find him and I'm really worried something had happened to him.


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## Marina B

Sorry to hear he did not return. Unfortunately, that's nature. Pigeons are a food source to many predators and the survival rate of the fledglings are very slim. That's why pigeons breed so much. Some will survive, some will not.


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## Friend John

The thing is that he flew very close to nightfall. We don't have predatory birds in this area, and they most likely wouldn't have been active at that time of day anyway (since it was so close to getting dark) unless we assume a nocturnal predatory bird, which I doubt we have here. We do have a few cats around and 2-4 crows in the area but I find it hard to believe they got him. The end result is the same though


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## Friend John

*Squab Is OK*

After being gone for almost the entire day (and all of last night), the missing squab had finally returned, and he's ok. I have no idea what he's been up to but I guess I underestimated his independent nature, as I was sure he'd stay close to his brother after flying and leaving the nest for the first time. I guess I worry too much, but I can't help it--these pigeons are too cute.


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## Friend John

*New Egg*

Last night was the first time since the pigeons made their nest that the nest was empty and unused during the night. Until now, either the parents or the squab\s (or both) would stay during the night. I seized the opportunity to clean the nest. All the small branches and twigs the pigeons had laid months ago were long buried under mountains of droppings. The entire "channel" where they would sit was full of droppings, which also produced a lot of dust in that area, which probably isn't good for them either. It got to a point where instead of sitting in the groove, the pigeons and squabs would sit elevated above it, since the droppings filled the entire thing from beginning to end and were stacked so high. And of course, there were all kind of insects in there as well. There really wasn't anything to salvage.

After I finished cleaning everything, I made them a new nest. I put down a layer of paper at the bottom, a layer of green pine needles in the middle, and a generous layer of dried pine needles on top. When the pigeons returned in the morning, the female was probably a bit confused at first, as I've seen her walking around inside the nest and looking around. But both have acclimated very quickly and seemed to have found the new nest comfortable. The female sent the male for one trip (only one) to get some twigs, which I took to be like a married couple moving to a new house and shop for a piece of furniture to tie the room together. They both spent some time together sitting inside, with the female spending more time sitting there. Which makes sense, because a few minutes ago I found a new egg! So I'm guessing another one is forthcoming within a day or so. That makes it 3 consecutive cycles of egg-laying and rearing at the same place, which I think (?) is rare for feral pigeons. 

I'm really glad they chose to continue to raise their young there, and now they'll have a clean environment again and a new nest to do it. I'm really happy the changing of the nest didn't cause them to abandon the place, and the timing of the whole thing was just perfect.


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## Friend John

*Don't know what to do*

After the pigeons laid their eggs, they incubated them as usual. But yesterday, they stopped, and spent the night out of the nest. I checked the eggs and one of them seem to have cracked at the bottom (could one of the parents sat on it too hard?) and is essentially hollow. The other one is still intact, but the pigeons have stopped incubating either. I noticed even before yesterday that sometimes either bird would sit next to the eggs and not on the eggs. The male still spends time in the nest during the day, but doesn't go all the way in, where the eggs are. He calls the female from where he is, and she's close by, sometimes on the platform, but doesn't enter the nest area.

I wonder what to do with the eggs. It is quite warm here and I worry that the remaining egg might hatch even if not incubated. In that case, will the parents take care of the squab? Or should I wait another day or two and then remove the eggs? I worry that there is a developed bird inside at this point, in case I'll have to destroy it, since the eggs were laid on the 12th and 13th. What should I do?


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## Marina B

I guess they have their reasons for stopping to incubate the eggs. Just remove them if the parents have lost interest.


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## Friend John

I'm just going to post it here in order to not clutter the board with more threads:

I was wondering if there is a way to prevent the pigeons I'm feeding from fighting over food? Apart of the pigeon couple that used the nest (and hopefully will again--the male still sits in it for a while during the day), once I started putting out food, it quickly became a food source for the entire flock. From feeding two pigeons + squabs it soon turned into feeding the the entire local flock, which is fine by me. The thing is, that unless the pigeons that are feeding are mates, at which case they'll allow each other to come near the food and eat together, most of the time the pigeons will fight and chase each other away, not letting others coming near the food. While it looks like a funny game of musical chairs, in which one pigeon chases away another, just for a third pigeon to come near the food while the first pigeon is chasing away the other, only to be chased away by yet another pigeon, and so on, I would have much preferred, if possible, to create a setup that will allow them all to eat without fighting. Due to the location and space, I worry they'll bang their wings too strongly on the window\shutters\iron bars and mesh when they are thrashing about during their fights, or just hurt each other from the fight itself.

The picture below shows the setup. I should note that I had to use these receptacles because the pigeons have easily knocked down other feeding dishes off the platform, and I can't take the risk it will fall on somebody below, so I can't use small and light food dishes. I had to glue a ceramic slate to the bottom of the red food dish, so it is harder for them to move now, for example (they used to knock it off the platform all the time). 

The red dish is for food, the small white plastic dish is for drinking water, and the large glass dish is meant for them to be their bath, though it has yet to be used even once. I did try to put food on the two opposite ends of the platform, but it just causes two fights in two different places.

On a different note, I noticed a pigeon with a strange color pattern, whose colors seem like they are in reverse, or like a negative image of a normal pigeon. I was wondering if anyone could shed light on this and say if it's normal (sorry for the quality, best I could do):


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## Marina B

Try to scatter the food over a larger area and not all in a small dish. You can only leave out 1 waterbowl. If they really become a problem (you were warned btw) try to put out food away from your place, maybe across the road as long as it is safe there. They also don't need unlimited food, that makes them all very dependant upon you. Only put out food in the afternoon and when that's finished don't refill. Their numbers will just increase every day, soon you will have neighbours complaining and some people can do really nasty things to pigeons.


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## Friend John

The pigeons aren't a problem, I like them and want them to be well, which is why I don't like to see them fighting if there is anything I can do. When the pigeon couple incubated eggs and took care of the squabs, they would command the area and there where no fights taking place. But now they are not using the nest regularly, the area next to it is more of a free-for-all territory.

If I put food away from my place, I won't get to watch them, which is part of the point. They also hardly land on the ground, but fly from one rooftop to another--I hardly ever see pigeons on the ground in this area. By now I've identified their hangouts, all on the rooftops of the surrounding buildings. I also see green, watery droppings around sometimes, which I learned from you is an indication that a pigeon is starving, so I try to do what I can, since I can't know to which pigeon it belongs to.

As for scattering the food over a larger area--I could extend the platform further. But winter is coming soon, and then the wind and rain will blow it all away. I do have a winter solution for the food dish, though.

As for the neighbors, I think the people in the building are pretty oblivious to the pigeons. They only congregate in large-ish numbers (7-8 at most) in the very early morning, but after that, they frequent the area sporadically during the day in small numbers, when people are out at work.


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## Jay3

If the flock is coming to eat, and it is in a small dish like that, then they are going to fight. It would need to be in a longer container where they could all fit in to eat together, or they will fight over it, as they are very hungry. They aren't just going to sit and wait their turn. But if you keep feeding them, you will get many coming and the original pigeons won't nest there anymore because it is too crowded with birds fighting over food. More and more will come until they are noticed by others. And they will hang around all day waiting to be fed. It really would be best to not feed them there if you don't want to attract attention. But as for the fighting, you need a long feeder that they can all fit at. You can put sides, maybe an inch or 2 high, and run them on both sides of the railing. Maybe 3 or 4 feet long, then sprinkle the seed on the railing.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> If the flock is coming to eat, and it is in a small dish like that, then they are going to fight. It would need to be in a longer container where they could all fit in to eat together, or they will fight over it, as they are very hungry. They aren't just going to sit and wait their turn. But if you keep feeding them, you will get many coming and the original pigeons won't nest there anymore because it is too crowded with birds fighting over food. More and more will come until they are noticed by others. And they will hang around all day waiting to be fed. It really would be best to not feed them there if you don't want to attract attention. But as for the fighting, you need a long feeder that they can all fit at. You can put sides, maybe an inch or 2 high, and run them on both sides of the railing. Maybe 3 or 4 feet long, then sprinkle the seed on the railing.


Thanks, Jay3, I like the idea of the railing, especially if I extend the platform further. The problem would be in the winter, but maybe I could build the sides as a kind of a trough with a small "roof" on top to block the rain. I could stop feeding them at that spot, but they only hang on rooftops and I wouldn't know where else to go to feed them, so they would just lose a food source altogether, which makes it a hard decision given that I see droppings that indicate some pigeons are starving. I could try to use the other side of the building, where there is a small yard of sorts, and a large pine tree, but the birds don't go there, and since it is on the ground and anyone who comes and goes walks right next to it, it will be more visible to other people and will actually draw more attention from the building's occupants. 

I haven't raised the issue of drawing attention--I think that so far no one noticed or cared, so at least so far it hasn't been a concern. Due to how the building is constructed, I doubt anyone can even see the birds when they land next to my window, and only the apartment next door has all that steel apparatus outside the window that you can see in the pictures, where pigeons can land. It is important to note that the only time 7-8 pigeons land in the area at the same time is early in the morning, and after that it's periodical visits by 1-4 pigeons at once at most, throughout the day so they really aren't very noticeable.


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## Friend John

*Update*

So, I just wanted to post a quick update. 

I started to change the feeding patterns a bit. I found that leaving food spread out in mid-day works the best, as the area is frequented by smaller groups of birds (1-3) at those times, every now and then. This allows them to feed with relatively little fighting and more space to maneuver, if I spread the seeds over the length of both platforms. The problem is that when fighting does happen, it knocks and blows all the food over and then everyone loses. If I leave out food in the afternoon (a less active time of day), a lot of it will remain for the early morning which is the most active time when the most birds visit, which will cause fights, so I think I'll stick to mid-day\noon feeding, and clearing out the remains at the end of the day, at least as a fallback option.

Next, I tried building them a feeder, which looks like the picture below (I placed the water on top of it for now). While it has some advantages, it doesn't really help in curbing the fights (no fights yet, just instances of one pigeon chasing the other away, even when there is enough room and food for both). The advantages are that it keeps the food cool and out of the sun, which was an issue before, as there is direct sunlight over the food all day long and it even heated up the old feeder. This will allow me to give them food other than bird feed, like vegetables and such which I wasn't able to give them up until now because it would have spoiled almost instantly. The other advantage is that should protect the food from the rain, which comes at an angle from the west (my window faces west).

The disadvantages are that it doesn't stop the fighting. While there hasn't been a "real" fight yet, once a pigeon sees another eating even at the farthest point of the feeder, it will try to chase it away, even when there is enough room and food for both, and this happens even in smaller groups of 3-4, when only one pigeon is at the platform eating--another will come off from the bars and perches and chase the feeding bird away). Could it be that ferals are just more wild and aggressive even towards each other? When the birds aren't eating, they don't mind standing next to each other, but when a birds starts eating, another birds will try to chase it away instead of eating together even when there's enough food and room for both. The feeder is currently 2.4 feet long. I'll try to find more materials to extend the platforms and the feeder a bit more, and hopefully it will help. The other issue is that since it is blocking some part of the view of the feeding birds, they tend to scare a bit whenever they hear another pigeon's wings flap close by when one flies away, or sometimes when they appear.

So, I think I'll leave this on for a few days and see how they adjust, and try and find some materials to extend the thing a bit further. If that doesn't work I can take the feeder and\or the roof thing off and revert to mid-day feeding, though I think the roof will have to be used once it starts raining, otherwise the food will spoil. 

And thanks to Marina B and Jay3 for their advice and input.


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## Jay3

Ferals don't normally fight, as they are just too busy eating as much as they can and as quickly as they can and then get out. My ferals never fight. They may be fighting because there isn't enough room at the feeder. They don't fight when there is enough room for everyone to eat. 
Also, the time pigeons normally eat would be in the morning, and then again in later afternoon. Not midday. That feeding tray looks very small for pigeons to feed from. What are the measurements on it?


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## Friend John

The measurements are:
29 inches long, 1.9 inches wide, 1.5 inches deep. It might be a little too deep, but I can insert something to make it more shallow and put the food on it.

It's possible there isn't enough room, but the space is not something I can change, as I am limited by all that steel. I can only make the platform longer. 

The pigeons here will usually eat at 05:30-06:00 in the morning, but that is when they appear in their largest numbers, which will trigger fights, perhaps due to the lack of space. This is why leaving out the food a bit later in the day works better, because the pigeons visit in smaller numbers and have more room to operate. Right now two pigeons who aren't mates are eating together and it works fine. I'll give it a few more days and see how it goes, and try to get more materials to extend the platform and feeder some more. Though when it starts raining, I'll have to use this solution as it's the best I can come up with to keep the food dry.


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## Jay3

It is long enough, but not wide enough. You could widen it to 4 or 5 inches and that would give lots more room. The reason they are all out very early in the morning, is because they need food then, after going through the night. If you are doing this for them, then that is the time they need the food. Also at the end of the day to fill up before nightfall. That whole board could be a feeder if you just put up 1 or 2 inch sides on either side of it. That would give them much more room. They aren't used to feeding from such a narrow little space, and that is why they are fighting. I made a feeder about 24 inch by 24 inch. They gather all over it to eat and they don't fight. They have room to move around.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> It is long enough, but not wide enough. You could widen it to 4 or 5 inches and that would give lots more room. The reason they are all out very early in the morning, is because they need food then, after going through the night. If you are doing this for them, then that is the time they need the food. Also at the end of the day to fill up before nightfall. That whole board could be a feeder if you just put up 1 or 2 inch sides on either side of it. That would give them much more room. They aren't used to feeding from such a narrow little space, and that is why they are fighting. I made a feeder about 24 inch by 24 inch. They gather all over it to eat and they don't fight. They have room to move around.


The feeder is made from a piece of metal that I repurposed, so I'll have to find something else. I do have a similar, wider piece but it has jagged edges so I prefer not to use it. I'll keep looking.

I am doing it for them (and I guess for me), so I'll try to feed them at the times you specified. I actually did so today and it worked relatively well (some chasing off, but no outright fighting), since that roof apparatus makes them a bit skittish once they are under it and can't see through it, so they don't approach the feeder all at once. I should stress that they do have food out for them from mid-day to the afternoon, I just collect what is left after it gets dark. 

I suppose I could use the whole board as a feeder, but what will I do when it starts raining?

Before I installed this roof and feeder, I did try to spread the food over both boards (without the 1-2 inches on the sides, obviously), so it was essentially a big area, like you suggest. It didn't really work, because they'd still fight. 

It feels like the fighting and the chasing each other off is more territorial than food related, because they did have enough space to eat together then. Two examples:

1. Pigeon 1 eats at the left edge of the feeder. Pigeon 2 advances from the opposite side, towards the right edge of the feeder. Pigeon 1 stops eating, and chases pigeon 2 away, even though they have plenty of space between them and food as well.

2. 5 pigeons are perching on the steel squares and perches outside the mesh. One of the pigeons starts to move from outside the mesh, towards the platform (they hop with great precision). So another pigeon moves from its perch, hops on the platform as well, and chases the first pigeon away from the platform.

In general, it looks like they'd chase each other away even when there is enough room for them to eat together. They even chase each other off their perches outside the mesh sometimes. I think the next step would be to add another board to the platform to make it longer, and try again spreading food over all three platforms. But again, this won't work when it rains, unless the pigeons will eat the food wet?

I'm adding this youtube video I found, where it has what seems to be the exact same feeder as I do (same part of repurposed metal, anyway) with the same dimensions, and it works fine there. I guess ferals are just more wild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBPe3IoXD8


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## Jay3

That one looks a bit wider than yours, but it could be just the angle. Maybe there are a lot of males in your flock.
Well then, I guess they will adjust to yours as well.
Yes they will usually eat it even wet, but keeping it dry is much better. Wet food will mold if there long enough. Although I don't think you leave it there all that long. Do they fight more in the morning than in the afternoon? Just wondering.


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## Friend John

It might look wider because on my feeder I glued some isolation material on the front to keep the feeder from heating up if I choose to use it without the roof, as the place is always in the sun. The other reason is that I wanted to make the edges thicker should the pigeons choose to perch on it (if I use the feeder without the roof then they'll have the space for it) and not risk injury because the metal is rather thin (but now it's safe).

While I don't think the food will ever be out long enough to mold, I will never take that chance and will always give them fresh and quality food, and I wouldn't want the food to get wet. Feral city pigeons have it hard enough already. I'll continue to make adjustments to find the best solution for them, but at the very least, they'll have that one spot with guaranteed dry and fresh food.

They fight in the early morning more, but I suspect that it's just because there are more of them to fight with. Even at later hours, when only 2-3 pigeons would have the area to themselves, they'll sometimes fight and try to chase each other away whenever one of them tries to get close to the food even if there is enough space and food for both. But sometimes they'll eat right next to each other without issues. What can I say, pigeons be crazy. Generally speaking, when it comes to the pigeons feeding with the least interruptions, it works best when they come after the early morning, each in their own time, eat whenever and as much as they want, and then go about their day and continue to do pigeon things. 

For the early morning feeding today, I tried to spread some food in other locations, like right on the window sill at various locations, as well as on the two edges on top of the roof thing (with the water in the middle), and all over the platforms. There was still fighting, especially from one pigeon who chased everyone else off while he was eating on the platform even if they weren't near him. But at the successful times, I had 5 pigeons eating at the same time, though in various locations and not in a row at the feeder. So I'll definitely add some more boards and try to spread the food in more spots in a larger area. But once it starts raining, I suppose they'll have to use the feeder under the roof which will be the only place where the food will remain dry.


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## Jay3

Well, can't say you aren't trying. Good luck with it. You will probably just have to let them fight with each other. Probably a lot of young males. LOL.


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## Friend John

Just wanted to update:

After some trial and error, I managed to find a way to distribute the food in a way that keeps fighting to a minimum, and when I'll extend the platform further, it should hopefully resolve the problem completely, or as much as possible. There is one pigeon in particular who's a troublemaker, and as I type this, two other pigeons began fighting for some reason. Oh well.

The previously nesting couple has increased their presence in the immediate vicinity and their use of the nest. The cock has once again stepped up his courting efforts and the hen seems to be responding. They are displaying an increased level of public displays of affection and spend more time in the nest, so here's hoping they'll use it once more.

Also, I noticed an absolutely gorgeous pigeon, which really stands out from the rest, as none look like it. I've seen it a few months before, but it never came back (that I noticed) until today. I don't think it is part of the flock, but it did spend time with the usual flock birds and flew away with them now, so maybe he is? Or maybe it'll get accepted and I'll see it around more. 

It is not banded and acted like a feral as far as I could tell. Perhaps it's a descendant of a couple that escaped a breeder? I wonder what kind of a pigeon it is. Sorry about the quality, best I could do (had to apply auto lighting filters for it too):


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## Jay3

Pretty. Could be a lost pet, or one that is let out to fly. Or as you said, maybe a domestic bred with a feral.
You are never going to be able to cut the squabbles out entirely. They are just being pigeons. Think you will just have to get used to it. Glad it is getting better though.
If they do nest there again, the flock could possibly interfere with the babies as they grow and come out of the nest. I forgot where you are located.


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## Friend John

Yes, I'm going to have to move the feeding area away to the right. I just need to find some materials. Worst case, I could just slide the window a bit from where the nest is and put in a small dish with some seeds and then close it again, and no bird will be able to get to it or know about it other than those in the nest. When the squabs are at the age when they can eat seeds, they also tolerate me quite well and aren't as afraid as the rest of the birds, probably because they see me all the time.

But we'll see what happens. When they'll be grown enough to venture out, it'd be winter already, so the place might be less frequented by other birds at that time. 

As for the fighting, I know I won't be able to stop them completely, and that's ok as long as they won't hurt each other seriously.


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## Jay3

Your idea of putting the seed where others don't see it is a good one. But if you stop feeding the others, I would start to wean them off now before winter is here.That would give them time to look for other feeding sources. They actually need more food during winter and may come more, unless the hawks are worse there in winter, and keep them away as they do here. When the songbirds leave, the hawks will concentrate more on the pigeons and birds who are still here, and may start grabbing them as they come to feed. Then they may stay away.


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## Friend John

Hawks are not a problem at this particular area, so I'm not worried. I don't think I'll stop feeding the others, I'll just put the food out further away from the nest area. But they will have to settle for the feeder with the roof if they want their food dry.


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## Jay3

If you don't get hawks there you are very lucky. Although with pigeons coming to eat, they will notice and you may see that change. I hope not.


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## Friend John

I'm happy to report the nesting couple had laid an egg yesterday. We'll see if another will follow. What's a bit strange is that the hen sat on the egg all last night (and was relieved by the cock around noon) but so far no one is incubating the egg this evening. Hopefully it only means another egg is forthcoming and then they'll establish their usual regiment. I hope all goes well this time.


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## cwebster

Really beautiful birds! Love the brown and blue.


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## Friend John

Just to update, the birds had laid the second egg since my last post, and are incubating them both as they should. The thing is, they\one of them managed to move or roll one the eggs to some distance from the other. The moving of the egg had to be deliberate and no accident, as they were next to each other at first, and in a small crater-like depression they made for both. The distance between the two eggs means that a single pigeon cannot cover both when it incubates the eggs. Any thoughts on why they did it, and if I should do anything?


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## Jay3

You don't know that it was moved deliberately. You are assuming that. I would just put it back and see what they do. Another bird could even have come in and started a ruckus, and the egg could have been moved. Many things could have happened.


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## Friend John

It must have been done deliberately. I keep a close eye on the place, no way another bird got in there, as one of the nesting couple is always there and I would have seen if another bird entered the nest area. There is only one way in. But the pigeons seem to have since managed to sit on them both, so I may have overreacted.


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## Jay3

Eggs are knocked out of the nest all the time without the parents doing it deliberately. Things happen. An intruder could have come in and you missed it.


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## cwebster

Am glad the parents are sitting on both eggs.


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## Friend John

Just wanted to update that the first egg hatched two days ago, and the second egg hatched today. There is already a noticeable size difference between to two squabs, which is to be expected with a two days head start for the older one. 

On a sadder note, about two weeks ago, the pigeon known and Pajama Pants showed up with all of his tail feathers missing. I don't know the cause but there are a lot of cats and dogs around in the area. Alas, I can't catch him because all the birds fly away when I get near or slide the window open, and he doesn't stay outside my window after dark so I can't just throw a towel over him when when it's dark. Essentially, he only comes around to eat with the rest of the flock.

The good news is that he looks to be fully functional. I live on the second floor so he has to fly to and from it when he wants to eat or leave, and he manages that without a problem, so he's fully able to fly. He eats and drinks with no issue, and seems otherwise healthy and energetic, and has no problems with still dominating most pigeons and chase them away from his immediate area when they eat, and is still able to fully fend for himself, it seems. So here's hoping he'll be okay and that his feathers will grow back and that he won't need any treatment.


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## cwebster

Hope Pigeon Pants is all better soon.


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## Jay3

Hopefully whatever got him only got the tail, so he wasn't injured and doesn't need antibiotics. He won't fly as well til it grows back, but will hopefully be okay. I can't remember where you are located.


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## Friend John

*Update*

Just wanted to update that the young squabs seem to be doing okay. One thing that concerns me is that the small squab (2 days younger than his brother\sister) tends to roll himself on his side, and once I found him completely on his back. I'm assuming he does it himself and that his parents and his older and bigger brother\sister aren't doing it. When he's on his side, he manages to roll back on his feet\stomach. But when I found him entirely on his back (his parents weren't around at the time) I opened the window and flipped him back. I wonder why this happens, as it never happened with the other squabs.

Also a small update on the pigeon known as Pajama Pants who appeared a few weeks ago with his entire tail feathers missing--he seems to be doing fine. He continues to eat and drink and fly and pick fights with other pigeons which he mostly wins, which is how he's always been. No lack of energy or signs of disease\infection. No bald spots on his rear - he's all feathery and his tail feathers are growing very fast. I suspect they'll be completely grown within a week or two.

Here's a picture of the squabs (sorry about the quality, there's the glare from the window and the window itself that makes the picture less sharp.


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## Jay3

Thanks for the update. I don't think he is rolling himself over. Sounds as though there is a balance issue for some reason. Where the other baby is so much larger, maybe he is getting less food. That happens a lot, as the larger one gets more because they can be more aggressive in begging for the food, and sometimes block the smaller one. Thanks for the pictures, that is very helpful in seeing how it is going, and the size of the babies.


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## Friend John

I know that usually one squab is bigger than the other and also often fed more, but the older one is 8 days old and the younger is 6 days old. The older squab has two days head start in growing and being fed, so I'm not surprised he's bigger. His parents get enough food from me, so there shouldn't be an issue of underfeeding. I'm happy to say that since I've started an orderly feeding regiment, it's been quite a while since I've seen green droppings by any pigeon. I don't know how the squab could manage rolling himself over, so you're probably right that it's not him that is doing it. But then it wouldn't be a balance issue, I think, because it is done to him, and he's just so young and small that he's easy to move. Maybe his older brother does it inadvertently when he moves - they both move quite a bit during the day in the length of the small channel they are in, and they even swap places. Maybe his parents flip him over by accident when they move around in the nest, when they want to change position and turn around 180 degrees. the channel itself is so narrow that it's hard to believe he manages to do it by himself. I'll keep a close eye on them to make sure.


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## Jay3

The parents getting enough food doesn't always equate with the both babies getting equal amounts of food. It happens all the time in lofts, where the parents are fed enough. Could be getting knocked over by sibling, but that doesn't usually happen. Maybe because their shared space is so narrow. Just watch for it and right him when he needs it.


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## Friend John

I'm happy to report that the surviving squab had fledged over the weekend. It was a very stressful experience to follow his progress because his parents stopped spending the night in the nest ever since his younger sibling passed away; the surviving squab was 10 days old at the time and his sibling was 7 days old.

But his parents did feed him during the days, and he made it through it, even though some nights were cold. He did have feathers at 10 days old, and the nest was protected from the elements well, which helped. He was a very well-mannered squab--he didn't even make that much noise and squeaking compared to other squabs. He was clever and picked up seed eating and drinking rather early, and though he no longer uses the nest at nights, he still comes to eat every day with his parents and the rest of the flock. He\she looks like their mother.

Picture 1: the squab.
Picture 2: squab and mother (the hen is on the left)
Picture 3+4: squab with both parents (squab in the middle, hen on the left, cock on the right)

The cock and hen are now in the courtship phase again and they both use the nest several times during the day. I think they will continue to use it and lay more eggs in there soon, so I think the relationship between us will be okay, after they became scared of me when I tried to save their squab, to no avail.

A question: Is is common for grown pigeons to feed each other? Because I saw the mated pair doing just that the other day. The cock fed the hen. Then he jumped on her back for a few seconds, trying to mate. Is that normal, or should I worry the hen isn't eating enough? There is enough food available and she has shown no problems with eating after I saw the cock feeding her--she is eating normally with all the other pigeons.


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## Friend John

I also owe a small update on the pigeon known as Pajama Pants: all of his tail feathers grew back and he seem to be doing just fine, with no sign of illness or infection, so I think he will be well. Most recent picture attached.


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## Jay3

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear that all is going well. Such a pretty little thing. Hope he/she has a wonderful life.


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## Colombina

Thanks for the update and for the photos, John.
The squab looks fine and healthy 😊, that's great! 
I'm also glad to know that Pajama Pants is doing well!

About what you saw, don't worry, it's absolutely normal. Paired pigeons do that, I always see my pigeons doing that. I think it's called billing, it's part of the courtship/mating ritual (I'm wondering if there could be also a connection with the feeding of the "future babies", maybe a sort of "training").

Anyway, do you remember Apple, my broken wing pigeon? She has a husband called Marshall, you should see them: they love each other so much, they spend all their time together, even if he is able to fly he usually never flies...they are like Romeo and Juliet 😍. 
It's really interesting observe paired pigeons, they are so lovely and sweet.


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## cwebster

Columbina, agree. Pigeons are loving birds and great parents.


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## Friend John

Colombina said:


> Thanks for the update and for the photos, John.
> The squab looks fine and healthy 😊, that's great!
> I'm also glad to know that Pajama Pants is doing well!
> 
> About what you saw, don't worry, it's absolutely normal. Paired pigeons do that, I always see my pigeons doing that. I think it's called billing, it's part of the courtship/mating ritual (I'm wondering if there could be also a connection with the feeding of the "future babies", maybe a sort of "training").
> 
> Anyway, do you remember Apple, my broken wing pigeon? She has a husband called Marshall, you should see them: they love each other so much, they spend all their time together, even if he is able to fly he usually never flies...they are like Romeo and Juliet 😍.
> It's really interesting observe paired pigeons, they are so lovely and sweet.


Thank you for letting me know about the billing, that is good to know. They are definitely in the courtship phase right now, so I expect to see new eggs in the next few weeks.

I took the opportunity of the nest being empty at nights at least for a few days to replace it with a new one yesterday, and the couple seem to approve when they saw it in the morning and have acclimated right away. So they will now have a clean nest for the next rearing. 

Two days ago there was a fierce fight between the cock and another pigeon who entered the nest. They fought for about 10 minutes straight mostly inside the nest, which is a very small space, and it was brutal. I couldn't do much because if I opened the window they would have ended up inside of my apartment and that would have caused more harm than good, with them being scared and bumping into things. The cock eventually won the fight, but not without suffering a wound (probably from a beak) a bit under his eye. He seems okay, though. The same pigeon still hangs around the nest and pokes his head in even while the two mates are sitting in it, and sometimes even enters a bit. Not sure what's that about, but I'm hoping the situation will resolve itself.


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## Jay3

When there is a problem like that, if you just knock on the window, it will usually break up the fight. Your pigeon could have lost an eye. 
Either that is one of the youngsters trying to come back in, or another male trying to take over the nest. You will need to be able to stop them if that happens again.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> When there is a problem like that, if you just knock on the window, it will usually break up the fight. Your pigeon could have lost an eye.
> Either that is one of the youngsters trying to come back in, or another male trying to take over the nest. You will need to be able to stop them if that happens again.


I did try to knock on the window several times but they were just too concentrated on the fight. I was hesitant to be too aggressive because I'm still trying to establish trust and didn't want to scare them again. As for the other pigeon, it's not one of their former squabs so it's probably another male trying to take over. The issue has subsided for the time being but I'll take your advice and be more aggressive next time.


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## Jay3

I can understand that you didn't want to scare the nice pair. We get the same things happening in the loft, but I know it's a lot harder when they are feral birds. The only reason the new aggressor even knows about the nest is because they are fed right there near the nest. Is there some way you could put up a barrier so that the nesting sight would not be as noticeable? I don't know if that is even possible, as I don't know what the whole thing looks like.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> I can understand that you didn't want to scare the nice pair. We get the same things happening in the loft, but I know it's a lot harder when they are feral birds. The only reason the new aggressor even knows about the nest is because they are fed right there near the nest. Is there some way you could put up a barrier so that the nesting sight would not be as noticeable? I don't know if that is even possible, as I don't know what the whole thing looks like.


That would be challenging. I did recognize this potential issue and have put the food as far away from the nest as possible, so there is a buffer zone of sorts between the nest and the food. The nest itself isn't visible from almost any angle - it is completely invisible from 3 out of 4 sides, with only a narrow entrance that you need to be right in front of in order to have a line of sight.

It looks like this:

Closed plastic blinds (essentially a wall)v 
------------------------------------
Wall -->| nest area entrance\exit <-->
------------------------------------
Glass window (the inside of my apartment)^

But other birds do see the pair enter and leave, and hear them coo, so after a while they take notice. I'll try to post some pictures later, but the only sure way to do what you're proposing is to slide all the blinds side by side in a way that forms a wall, with a small entrance to the nest. I do it only when it rains in order to prevent water accumulation in the channel where the nest is. It blocks the entire view to the outside so I don't do it unless I have to.


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## Jay3

I understand what you are saying. Maybe the other bird will just give up. I hope so. Pigeons I think, can be one of the most stubborn birds. They just don't like to give up. They get their minds set on something, and it's like tunnel vision.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> I understand what you are saying. Maybe the other bird will just give up. I hope so. Pigeons I think, can be one of the most stubborn birds. They just don't like to give up. They get their minds set on something, and it's like tunnel vision.


So far it there have been no other incidents, and that other pigeon have stopped poking his head in there, at least for the time being. I hope it lasts.


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## Jay3

I hope so too.


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## Friend John

In the past few days, the hen has been spending quite some time in the nest. At the behest of the lady of the house\nest, the couple did some interior decorating and bolstered the nest with small branches to their liking. It is evening now and the hen is staying in the nest overnight, so I'm guessing she is about to lay eggs if she hadn't already done so, and expect to see an egg in the morning.

Since it is now wintertime, I'm concerned. It is not the best time to lay eggs, even though winters here aren't that cold, and temperatures reaching 0 or below 0 (Celsius) is unlikely. It is still getting cold enough. I do have a heating pad at the ready (thanks again, Jay3), but I'm still concerned about the well-being of the squabs, especially after last time (I still can't stop thinking about the poor squab). Any advice?

EDIT: just to follow up, I checked the nest this morning and indeed the hen laid an egg, so I'm assuming another should follow within the next 36 hours or so. The cock had already started doing his shifts and is incubating the egg right now.


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## Jay3

They are feral birds and going to do whatever they do. By sitting on the egg now it will hatch sooner than the other egg so there will again be a size difference. 
I don't know how you can use a heating pad outside. It could get wet. Wish them luck.


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## Friend John

Well, they stopped sitting on it in the afternoon, so tonight the egg will not be incubated. I'm guessing that they'll start incubating again if\when they lay another egg. 

I can't use the heating pad outside, I just meant I'm on alert should I need to help one of the squabs again and take them inside the house. I've been using it myself these days, since it has become colder. It's really nice.


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## Friend John

Just to update, the hen laid a second egg this noon, so now hopefully they won't hatch too long apart and there won't be a big size difference with the squabs, as the first egg was not incubated for that long, and with almost a full day's pause in the incubation until the second egg was laid.


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## Jay3

Great! Let us know how they do. Hope all goes well.


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## cwebster

Hope the eggs hatch and that the youngsters do well. Ferals are my favorite.


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## Friend John

Just wanted to update that both eggs hatched today (or maybe during the night). Both squabs are of the same size, and hopefully they will both grow to be healthy and both will make it through this time.


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## cwebster

Congrats! Hope they do really well. Ferals are my favorite pigeons.


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## Jay3

That great. Thanks for the update. Let us know how it goes.


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## JennyM

I just want to say I love this thread! thank you for being so nice and kind to the feral pigeons! ♥


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## Friend John

Thank you JennyM. It is very easy to care about them once one gets the opportunity to watch them up close and see how they care for their squabs, and how much effort and time they put into building the nest and sitting on eggs. They are very intelligent and cute and it is my pleasure.

I just wanted to update and say that the squabs are doing well. They are about 18 days old and seem to be healthy. It is always interesting to see what kind of color\pattern the new squabs will have (I know nothing about genetics and breeding). This time, it looks like both squabs will have the "classic" rock pigeon look (gray with a black stripe), which is a first for these parents since they started to nest in my window. It will be harder to tell them apart from the rest of the pigeons once they fledge 

The cock has already started to sit around and do the mating call\cooing again, and I really hope both parents will keep it in their feathers long enough for the squabs to fledge before the hen lays another egg--I really need to clean the nest (which means basically cleaning the entire area, get rid of the old nest and make a new one) because there are a lot of droppings piling up. 

BTW, a general question: I usually put ACV in the water twice a week. Is it ok\safe to put ACV in the water every day, or more than two days a weak, as long as the dosage is the same (5ml to 1 liter)? Any other thing I can\should provide the flock?

Here are the squabs (pictures were taken 2-3 days ago):


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## Jay3

They are adorable. They really are. 
No need to put the ACV in the water every day. Maybe they would like to drink just plain water. They really don't need that much.


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## JennyM

omg look at them! so adorably cute!!! 
the "keep it in their feathers" part had me laughing LOL I really hope they do so they can care for these cuties until they leave the nest! - thanks for the update


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## Colombina

They are absolutely adorable 😍.


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## Friend John

So, the hen spent some time in the nest yesterday, and spent the night with her two squabs. Sure enough, this morning there is an egg in the nest. I saw the squabs peck at it and around it and move it around a bit, probably just being curious, but the egg seems fine. Still, not sure how it's going to work, having an egg and two squabs in this space. Tomorrow the hen will probably lay another egg. 

I think the squabs are still at least a week away from fledging. They have started to eat seeds on their own, not that it prevents them from asking food from their parents, spoiled little things. They currently possess the talent of doing that excited up and down wing movement, and squeaking while eating seeds at the same time. 

I really hoped I'd have a chance to clean and replace the nest before the hen lay more eggs, as it is filled with a month's worth of droppings of the two current squabs.

The first picture is the hen with the squabs from last night.

The second and third picture show what I do when it rains-- I slide other parts of the shutters to prevent the channel in which the nest is in from filling up with water (you can see some rain drops on the glass) and leave them a space to get in or out, and it also gives them space to eat without worrying about them fighting with other pigeons. All the family loves this corridor and they all spend a lot of time there during the day, sitting at their leasure.

The fourth picture is one of the squabs practicing their wings.


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## Jay3

Great shots. Thanks. Too bad you didn't get to clean before they laid more eggs. If nothing else, I would want to spray the area with a lice and mite spray, or sprinkle a Permethrin powder. Nice to be able to enjoy them up so close.


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## Howl

Your pictures make me smile. They look so cozy in the picture with the shutter closed.


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## Friend John

Howl said:


> Your pictures make me smile. They look so cozy in the picture with the shutter closed.


Thank you. The picture where they are all together is actually their nest.

Today there was some light rain (no wind, thankfully), and the squabs, along with some of the flock, had a really good time. You could really see they are enjoying themselves and it was the cutest thing I've seen in a while. Many of the birds just lay on their side and lifted their wing and it was so adorable.


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## Friend John

Last batch of pictures:


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## Jay3

Maybe you could have cleaned out the nest somewhat while they were all out showering. Then just tuck in some more straw or pine needles and place the egg on them. Or would that have scared them?
They are very cute out there in the rain. Good pics!


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## Friend John

The squabs were out in the rain but their father was still sitting on the eggs in the nest, and later was replaced by the mother. The problem with having 4 of them is that there is always someone in the nest.

I do clean what I can but that is outside the nest, where the squabs spend their time during the days. The young ones aren't wary of me the way their parents are (though they are currently tolerating me pretty well and aren't scared, just cautious) so I can clean when they stand right next to my hand, but the nest is always occupied by one of the parents due to the eggs.

The parents did bring in new branches and rejuvenated the old nest where the eggs are, so that part on which they incubate is clean. But it is dirty around it. I think I'll pick some pine needles tomorrow and when the coast is clear, even for a little while, I'll lay them where I can. I read somewhere that green pine needles repel some mites and such, due to the scent or some compound in them. Is that true?


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## Colombina

I know that some people put pine needles in nests against mites, other put lavender. I really don't know if these remedies work...I have never tried them.


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## Friend John

I've always used pine needles for the nest bedding because it's a natural solution that they might (and do) use themselves, and is also readily available, but since I don't handle the birds I never get close enough (meaning, holding them in my hands and checking) to look for mites. I can testify that the pine needles do not repel pigeon flies, though. I do wonder if there are certain plants that can help with that and can be used as nesting material.


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## Colombina

Is lavender available there? If so, you could try to put in the nest a few sprigs of lavender, as I said yesterday I know that some people use it (as well as essential oil of lavender in bath water) like natural remedy against parasites. 
I don't know if it really works but in any case it could maybe help to repel mosquitos (in add it has a good scent!). 

I really hate pigeon flies...I noticed that they are annoyed (just annoyed) by the spray containing permethrin + piperonyl butoxide + tetramethrin.


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## Friend John

Pigeon flies are hardy things. I tried to kill one by squashing it with my hand and they don't squash easily. The thing I hate most of all is seeing young squabs who just recently hatched and are a few days old already have pigeon flies on them, passed on by their parents.

I think I could get some lavender. Thanks for the advice, I'll give it try. I think that currently the pigeon flies are gone, perhaps due to the winter and the cold. Is that possible? I haven't seen any on the pigeons currently, while earlier in the year they all had them.


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## Colombina

You're welcome 😊. When you will try it, please let me know if it seems helpful (I know that you don't handle the birds so it's more complicated get an idea...). 

Yes, I know, they are really hard to find and to catch/kill because of their flat body 😠... Some years ago, while I was at the sea in Italy, there was a pigeon flies "invasion" in that area. .. They drove me crazy....honestly I hate them, they feed on blood (in the worst case they could also cause anaemia) and could carry diseases.
Yes, I think it's because of the cold.


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## Friend John

I saw the hen today, sitting in the nest and preening herself, like normal. She preened under her wing and came away with a small fluffy feather in her beak. Instead of dropping it, she decided to eat it and swallowed it. Is that normal? Should I be worried for her health? She did eat seeds not long before so she wasn't starving.


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## Colombina

Sometimes they do that when they are preening themselves. When I see one of my birds with a feather in the beak, I try to take it out but... he/she swallows it as fast as he/she can!
It happened the same thing with my cat Kira and her cat hair...


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## Friend John

I'm beginning to worry a bit about the current situation. Both squabs are capable of flying, but they haven't fledged yet. They both hatched on January 19 so they are a bit behind schedule. All their yellow fuzz is gone too. One of the squabs does leave in the mornings and comes back during the day, but the other one, though capable of flying, just spends all his time in the nest and the immediate area. Both sleep in the nest with the incubating hen at night.

The hen laid eggs on February 15+16, so they are almost ready to hatch. What is going to happen when they do? Is this one of the cases where nature will take its course and the parents will make the grown squabs leave? Any suggestions?


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## Friend John

Well, I have my answer--nature took care of it. Both eggs hatched yesterday. One squab fledged a day before. The other was chased violently from the nest by both parents, the poor thing. He came back today to eat with the rest of the flock and it was clear he was scared and has yet to find his place. He was also bullied by some of the other birds when trying to eat. I did make sure he got enough to eat so at least he won't starve.


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## Jay3

He will probably be fine once he establishes his place in the flock. I know it is hard on him now, poor thing. Just keep an eye out and make sure he gets enough food and water.


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## Friend John

*Update*

The most recent fledged squabs are doing fine. They are part of the flock and seem to have found their place. They come to eat every day and I make sure they get enough to eat. I can do that in part because the flock has started to eat from my hand a few weeks ago, to my delight. Even the nesting male finds the courage to eat from my hand from time to time. I don't think the hen ever will, but that's ok.

The current squabs are also doing well. They are very active and a bit more advanced than the last clutch when it comes to learning to eat seeds and venture out of the nest. They are now 21 days old, and like the last clutch, have the traditional rock pigeon look of gray with a black stripe.

The only "bad" thing is that this morning I found another egg, which means that tomorrow I'll probably find another one. In the past, the couple usually took a few days\weeks off after the squabs fledged before they laid eggs again. I still can't clean the nest, since the squabs are always in it, and now the parents will once again be there too. I really wish I could give them a clean nest, and it'd make my life a bit easier too.


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## Jay3

Do you think you could clean it when the parents go out? Would the babies be so scared they would fly off or something? If you just scare them a little and no harm comes of it, then not so bad. They'll get over it. Eventually, the lice and such will be enough to harm any newly hatched babies, and they could even venture into your house through cracks. I would try if possible.

Nice that they are now starting to eat from your hand. That's great.


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## Friend John

Because of the new eggs, I don't think both parents will go out at the same time, there is always one sitting on the eggs (still one egg as of right now). The squabs can't fly yet--if they could, it might have been a bit easier because I wouldn't have to worry about them, but I wouldn't want to just pick them up and put them somewhere--I think it will really scare them, and also moot since one of the parents is now always present in the nest. I'll have to wait awhile once more and figure some solution for the next time. Ideally, I'll need an hour to do a good job cleaning and setting up a new nest.


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## Jay3

Usually they always have one of them at the nest after the second egg is laid, so I thought they may both be gone at the same time with just one egg. They usually start sitting on them after the second one is laid. Of course, if they are always there, then you can't do it. But when you do get the chance, you don't need to spend an hour on it. Just change out the nest with new straw, And spray well before adding the new straw. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just needs to be done to protect the newly hatched from bugs and such.


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## Friend John

What would be a good spray or powder to use that is pigeon-friendly?


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## Jay3

Any bird spray from a shop that sells birds, or a spray or powder with Permethrin in it.


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## Friend John

Thanks, I'll look for one, though I haven't found any yet--most shops are focused on cat and dog products and there aren't many bird products. I don't suppose that a cat or dog spray could work even if it has Permethrin in it?

On another note, I put the food out in the afternoon as I always do, and the flock came to eat. When I came back about 45 minutes later, I found an egg there. No bird claims it, and it is highly unlikely it belongs to the nesting couple as they are already sitting on two eggs (which will make a third one very rare), the hen doesn't venture to that area (she has her own food closer and doesn't spend much time at the location where the egg was), and it will be next to impossible for the hen to lay a 3rd egg in the nest and somehow move one of the eggs from there to where the egg was found, so it has to belong to another bird. It is also very unlikely it fell from above and remained intact, so some pigeon must have lain it, which seems like a strange thing to happen in that specific place.

Any advice on what I should do? The egg wasn't in any sort of nest, it was just sitting there. I think I'll wait until night time and remove it. Is this thing common?


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## Jay3

Yes, sometimes eggs do get laid in odd placed. Probably a young hen. just toss it.


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## Jay3

Yes, sometimes eggs do get laid in odd placed. Probably a young hen. just toss it.
I wouldn't use something for dogs or cats.


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## Ladygrey

Friend John said:


> Thanks, I'll look for one, though I haven't found any yet--most shops are focused on cat and dog products and there aren't many bird products. I don't suppose that a cat or dog spray could work even if it has Permethrin in it?
> 
> On another note, I put the food out in the afternoon as I always do, and the flock came to eat. When I came back about 45 minutes later, I found an egg there. No bird claims it, and it is highly unlikely it belongs to the nesting couple as they are already sitting on two eggs (which will make a third one very rare), the hen doesn't venture to that area (she has her own food closer and doesn't spend much time at the location where the egg was), and it will be next to impossible for the hen to lay a 3rd egg in the nest and somehow move one of the eggs from there to where the egg was found, so it has to belong to another bird. It is also very unlikely it fell from above and remained intact, so some pigeon must have lain it, which seems like a strange thing to happen in that specific place.
> 
> Any advice on what I should do? The egg wasn't in any sort of nest, it was just sitting there. I think I'll wait until night time and remove it. Is this thing common?


If you feed away from the nest at the same time everyday, and not over feed they will come to you, leave the feed there. The pigeons should get off the nest for you to dust it or spray it when they go to eat.

Pigeons have poopy nests that is just the way they are, I’ve read that is how the young get their probiotics to build their immune system this way. 

If you want to stop the cycle, just take up newly laid eggs toss them , after the last ones fledge, and pick up the the nest and clean the area . They may build another new nest there or go elsewhere.


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## Friend John

I don't want to stop their egg laying cycle, I just want it to be like it used to, where after the squabs fledge, they'd take a few days\weeks off before laying eggs again, which gave me time to clean the nest properly and make them a new one. 

Anyway, went into a store and found this product:

UltraShield® EX Insecticide & Repellent

It is used on horses primarily, and it says:

"

As the most advanced formula Absorbine® offers, UltraShield® EX fly spray delivers proven fly control horse owners like you depend on for the comfort and protection of your horses. When you need to eliminate fly frustrations, reach for The Fly Spray in the Black Bottle™.

Kills and repels more than 70 species of biting and nuisance flies, mosquitoes, ticks, and gnats
Weatherproof for up to 17 days with UltraBond™ Technology
Ideal for the most challenging conditions
Advanced formula contains multiple sunscreens and coat conditioners, including aloe and lanolin
Can be used on horses, donkeys, mules, dogs, and as a premise spray
Ready to use, water-based formula

UltraShield® EX Insecticide & Repellent can also function as a premise spray—an important part of your overall fly control strategy. Premise sprays are commonly used to kill biting and nuisance flies, as well as crawling species such as deer ticks and carpenter ants on surfaces inside your barn."

This is the label: https://absorbine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ultrashield-ex-32oz-spray-label.pdf

Product: 
https://absorbine.com/products/fly-control/ultrashield-ex/

https://www.amazon.com/UltraShield-Brand-Residual-Insecticide-Repellent/dp/B0042KYW2Q

The ingredients are:

Permethrin: 0.50%
Pyrethrins: 0.10%
Piperonyl Butoxide: 1.00%
Other ingredients (inactive compounds): 98.40%

I know it's not for birds but like I said, it's hard to find things for birds around here. Is that okay to use, or should I keep looking?


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## Jay3

I would look for a spray or powder that is just Permethrin.


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## Ladygrey

I’ve never had to spray my pigeons nests. All has been fine I think because old nest were taken up and did not have time to harbor any parasites/bugs . I cleaned up the nests when the babies fledge, as the pigeons were sitting on fake eggs for two weeks. I’d take the eggs out and do what needed to be done. Sometimes it just makes sense. Fake eggs can be found at pigeon supply sites online.


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## Friend John

This may work with tame pet pigeons, but the pigeons I'm talking about are feral. I can't clean their nest when they sit on eggs, fake or not, because they are always sitting on them. They are also not in a cage, but in a gap between my glass window and the plastic blinds behind it, so the location makes it a bit more tricky. In the past, when they took some time off between their squabs fledging and laying the next set of eggs, I had no issues and was able to clean their nest the first time they'd leave the nest empty for the night, and make them a new one. But now they have laid eggs and sat on them before their squabs fledged, 3 times in a row, so there is always a bird in the nest sitting on eggs, along with their squabs, that have yet to fledge. I just can't clean the nest in these circumstances.


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## Friend John

I just found another egg outside the nest, right in front of the entrance. I also managed to get a glimpse at what the birds are incubating and there is only one egg in the nest now, so I'm assuming the one outside was somehow moved by the incubating couple from the nest, which is not easy to do. What would be the reason for doing that?

The eggs were laid on March 26th and 28th (or perhaps 27th) so they are due to hatch any day now. I'm quite nervous of finding out if the egg is intact and fertile (I'll get it when it gets dark), what should I do if it is? There'd be a bird in there, fully formed and ready to hatch by now.


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## Jay3

Just put it back in the nest. Who knows how it got knocked out. Sometimes happens if another pair is trying to take the nest. Or a predator stealing the egg.


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## Friend John

Given the location of the eggs, right at the corner, near the wall, I can't see any way it could have been moved that far by accident--not only is it a long distance, but it had to also have been pushed over the rails on which the windows slide and they create a hurdle because of the height difference of the protruding "rails". To place the egg where it ended up, right outside the entrance to the nest is a 90 degree turn right at the opening of the nest , which is very difficult to do by accident. 

I was around all day and didn't hear any fighting or struggling noises, which are very easy to hear. No predators can get to where the nest is, too. I really think it was done by the nesting birds on purpose. 

Anyway, it's all moot now, since the egg was pushed by one of the birds and landed on my neighbor's laundry roof, broken. I didn't see anything that looks like a bird, so I'm guessing it wasn't fertile.


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## Ladygrey

She could of dropped the egg, sometimes they don’t make it to the nest and she just laid it there. Or sometimes eggs get stuck in the “egg pocket”, (an indention under the breast where the eggs are covered for incubation) in this indention if feathers are a bit wet or moist eggs can cling or get suction in the pocket, only to fall when the bird moves off the nest to go eat etc.. leaving them in seemingly strange locations. 

If you are wanting to help these feral pigeon, just treat them as if you are their keeper. Husbandry goes with that. Examples:
Hatch control by using fake eggs(over population =more diseas)
Clean the nests up after fledging, sweep up the mess, scrub the area with soap, lay down diatomaceous earth, or poultry powder for parasites. There are drying agents sold by pigeon supply as well. 
Paper nest bowls make for easier clean up, I’d use the large ones. Just toss after they leave the fake eggs or after they been “incubated” them for three weeks. The nesting habits change with the seasons . They slow down as the day light gets shorter.


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## Friend John

Ladygrey said:


> She could of dropped the egg, sometimes they don’t make it to the nest and she just laid it there. Or sometimes eggs get stuck in the “egg pocket”, (an indention under the breast where the eggs are covered for incubation) in this indention if feathers are a bit wet or moist eggs can cling or get suction in the pocket, only to fall when the bird moves off the nest to go eat etc.. leaving them in seemingly strange locations.
> 
> If you are wanting to help these feral pigeon, just treat them as if you are their keeper. Husbandry goes with that. Examples:
> Hatch control by using fake eggs(over population =more diseas)
> Clean the nests up after fledging, sweep up the mess, scrub the area with soap, lay down diatomaceous earth, or poultry powder for parasites. There are drying agents sold by pigeon supply as well.
> Paper nest bowls make for easier clean up, I’d use the large ones. Just toss after they leave the fake eggs or after they been “incubated” them for three weeks. The nesting habits change with the seasons . They slow down as the day light gets shorter.


It is unlikely the hen laid another egg. She was already incubating two eggs, and suddenly there is only one egg in the nest, and another egg is resting outside the nest. The explanation about the "egg pocket" might explain this, if it means that the hen incubated the eggs, got up and walked outside, and one egg stuck to the "egg pocket" and dropped after the hen walked some distance.

I care a lot about these birds, but you have to keep in mind that these are feral birds who are completely free and can come and go as they please. They don't live in a coop or an aviary, but in a small gap between my window and the blinds behind it. They are not tame and there is no room to place nesting bowls--this thread has a lot of pictures that show the space they chose for their nest, just for reference.

I can't use fake eggs without really scaring them, which I don't want to do. I don't want to cause them any stress and I don't want them to leave. And besides, I prefer to let them live their lives as nature intended and if they want to lay eggs and be parents, I don't want to interfere and take that away from them (they are very good parents). 

Over-population is not really an issue, as they don't live in a coop--the squabs they raise fledge and have the whole city to live in.

As I explained in previous posts, I try to clean the nest whenever I have a chance, but until now there have always been at least one parent sitting on eggs and two squabs in the nest, 3 hatching cycles in a row, without pause, so it wasn't possible to clean. Obviously, when the first opportunity presents itself, I'll clean the nest.


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## Ladygrey

Feral pigeons are from domestic stock. My pigeons are free to come and go as well. The only difference in your pigeons and mine is mine have a loft and clean nests . 

Feeding is interfering if you look at it that way. Feral pigeons and kept pigeons breed more babies when they have a regular food supply. I use fake eggs for their own good, and feral living pigeons can benefit from that as well. It is used in some large cities for population control which in turn lowers diseases. Win win. 

Domestically hatched pigeons can go feral and feral pigeons can benefit from domestic treatment . They are not exactly true wildlife , but considered invasive species from domestics. So I wouldn’t worry about “interfering” in this situation.


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## Friend John

Sometimes things end up taking care of themselves. Like in this case.

The first squab fledged yesterday. I found the egg outside the nest today, and found the nest with only one egg. The one that was moved outside perished. As for the second egg, the parents appear to have abandoned the egg--they did not sit on it during the day. When night came, the second squab did not return, so he has also fledged. And the hen decided to leave the nest and spend the night elsewhere, so at long last I had the time to clean everything, which is what I did. A lot of droppings to clean but surprisingly (or not), no insects at all.

So now everything is clean, I made them a new nest, and hopefully they'll return to use it once they feel like laying eggs again. I think they'll take a few weeks off though, just as they used to.

As for the egg itself, I tried to light it with my cell phone flashlight. There is a dark mass inside that takes about a third of the space inside, and some liquid. This egg is 17-19 days old and should be ready to hatch any day now, but am I correct in assuming that a healthy egg at that age should be much fuller with a fully formed bird by now? In other words, is it safe to dispose of it without fearing I'm killing a ready to hatch bird?


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## Ladygrey

You definitely want to discard it outdoors. A rotten egg is one of the worst smells in the world! Not joking..lol. And yes a ready to hatch embryo or pre hatchling fills up the whole egg mostly so it would candle as a dark mass in the whole egg. 

If it was fertile the embryo has already perished maybe days ago and is probably rotten. Handle it carefully as these bacteria eggs can explode on you.


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## Jay3

Glad you were able to finally clean up the nest. Good job. I understand why you don't want to interfere too much, or take a chance at scaring them away. I know you enjoy having them nest there. And I would feel the same. You want to help where you can, without interfering with how they live their lives. And you get to enjoy watching them as they raise their families. Maybe they will come back to nest again. Let us know if they do.


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> Glad you were able to finally clean up the nest. Good job. I understand why you don't want to interfere too much, or take a chance at scaring them away. I know you enjoy having them nest there. And I would feel the same. You want to help where you can, without interfering with how they live their lives. And you get to enjoy watching them as they raise their families. Maybe they will come back to nest again. Let us know if they do.


Not to jinx it, but they've been using the nest for a year now, and things have been going well in recent months, so I'm pretty confident they'll continue to use the nest again. The cock has already begun sitting in the nest and make mating coos. Will definitely let you all know, thanks for all your help.


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## Jay3

Good sign! He is calling her to the nest.


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## Friend John

I'm glad to report that the couple immediately got back to work on adding their improvements to the nest and by now there is a nice addition of their own twigs and branches that make up a more defined area for nesting. The hen has been sitting in the nest quite a bit over the past dew days and given the nest they've built I'm expecting new eggs pretty soon.


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## Jay3

I don't remember, are you putting out egg shell or something to help them with calcium?


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## Friend John

No. I bought this grit that contains oyster shells but you said it's too small for the birds and that they get grit in the wild anyway:
https://en.tiendanimal.es/kiki-supergrit-oyster-p-356.html

I can by a calcium cake\block but I don't know if any bird will show interest, or where to put it. I suppose I could buy some eggs and crush the shells into the food, though ever since the birds started to make their nest in my window I stopped eating eggs--I don't have the heart to do that anymore after seeing how much effort they put into the whole process.

Any other suggestions on how to give them calcium? Do free feral pigeons need help with that?


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## Colombina

John, I just want to say that I leave always available to my birds pigeons pickstones (I buy different kinds of blocks), they love them! Some of them directly peck at the blocks, others just eat the crumbled ones that I put in a separate bowl (lazy birds...). 

Of course, I don't know if your feathered friends will show interest for it and where you could safely put one on your window sill.


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## Ladygrey

The pick stones are a good idea, just not sure what your place is like and where these birds forage. If you have a feeding spot the calcium , shells or pick stones or other wise can be put in the middle of a feeding spot with the seeds, but it is true they usually find and forage it in gravel areas.


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## Jay3

I wash, boil or microwave, and crush chicken egg shells, then put them out in the feeder for the wild birds and they do take them. Normally they would be mixed into the grit that you give your birds, but as feral birds collect their grit in the wild, I usually just either mix it in with their seed, or put it beside the seed in the feeder. Crumbling up a pickstone near the feeder may encourage them to pick at it and take some.


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## Friend John

Thanks, I'll try to add some egg shells into their food. Don't know if a pick stone\blocks will work because they'd have to be out in the elements all the time and will probably degrade quite rapidly, especially in the rain, which still occurs.

Btw, as predicted, the hen laid an egg yesterday and both parents have started to sit on it again.


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## Jay3

Thanks for the update. They are a busy pair, aren't they?


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## Friend John

Jay3 said:


> Thanks for the update. They are a busy pair, aren't they?


They are regular breeding machines. But I guess it means they are comfortable in this setup, which is nice. Second egg was laid today (or last night maybe).


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## Ladygrey

Friend John said:


> Yes, this spot is so clever! There is absolutely nothing that can get to them. I'm on the 2nd floor so nothing can get there - no cats or anything else. On the other side of the shutters is a very narrow ledge of a few centimeters. The good thing is that under that ledge there is a small roof of sorts that extends from the apartment below, so even if the squab falls by accident [once he's grown and can get out], he'll probably still be fine.
> 
> There is definitely no room for spreading wings where the nest is, though. Once the squab is grown, he'd have to walk along the shutters like his parents do, and, if he'd face outward [face toward the direction of the shutters] he'd have the horizontal space to spread and exercise his wings, on a small ledge to walk on, though it is quite narrow, but extends all along the window. There are also some vertical steel bars [once used for hanging laundry] he could hop on, like his parents do, and on them he'll have all the space he'll need to exercise his wings too, but it all requires a bit of precision, which his parents seem to manage. Again, the good part is that if it'll fall he'll probably still be ok due to the platform beneath.
> 
> I would have liked to feed them but the whole setup is so constricted that unless I open the glass window from the baby's side [which I won't do], it is really a challenge to do anything without scaring the birds away by moving either of the shutters, nets and glass window. The picture may not show it but it is actually a very wide window which stretches more than 4 meters wide.
> 
> The area might not look that dirty, but it does smell. After the fledging, would it help if I cleaned the area, save some of the branches, and line the place with newspaper? Would they come back then? I really hope they won't lay an egg right away, before I can get rid of the smell.


 Oh wow, it’s like an ant farm but with pigeons..lol.. that is one skinny ledge. Very protected though. At some point later in the season they may slow the egg laying, so you could clean it then and maybe block them out if you choose to... or not. You could try putting some plain cat little with no fragrance sprinkled about to absorb moisture.. just an idea. Have no idea if it would stay in place.


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## Friend John

Ladygrey said:


> Oh wow, it’s like an ant farm but with pigeons..lol.. that is one skinny ledge. Very protected though. At some point later in the season they may slow the egg laying, so you could clean it then and maybe block them out if you choose to... or not. You could try putting some plain cat little with no fragrance sprinkled about to absorb moisture.. just an idea. Have no idea if it would stay in place.


I've since added some flat wooden boards outside so there is much more room outside to walk around and spread food and water. I also installed some small planks for them to perch outside. I'll try to post a picture of how it looks now. 

I've grown very attached to them, and every time they (one of them, anyway) don't spend the night in the nest and sleep there, the house just feels different somehow. I don't think I'll block them out, I could have done so long ago if I wanted.

The nest I made for them is resting on top of a 0.5cm water-resistant material that I cut and put in place so that no water will touch the nest (which is now a bit elevated)--it has proven to work well during the winter. As long as I get to clean the nest after the squabs fledge and make a new one this setup works fine for both sides, it seems.


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## Jay3

They are so lucky that you watch over them. I'm sure they don't know how much you do for them because you enjoy them so. I enjoy this thread.


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## Friend John

Thank you for saying that, and thank you and everyone else for their help, the pigeons and me are in your debt.

I'm attaching a picture with the current setup, hopefully it will make sense but there is a bit of a perspective issue that makes judging the distance tricky. The whole thing is about 4 meters long (about 13 feet) and the nest itself is around 1 meter long (3.2 feet) and is obviously on the other side of the blinds. The bricks are there to prevent the wooden planks from tilting and falling when the pigeons jump-land on them. This makes it all sturdy and not move.

On an unrelated note--is it safe to put dried mung beans (not sprouted) in the feed? I bought some because they looked like they are at a size the pigeons will like, which is smaller than popcorn and bigger than millet.


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## Jay3

Yes, my pigeons love mung beans. They can have them either sprouted or not.


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## Colombina

Even my birds (especially some of them) like mung beans. 

I always add to the pigeon/dove mix dry legumes (mung beans, small lentils, peas) because they are important for a balanced diet. You had a good idea buying them 😊!


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## Ladygrey

Friend John said:


> Thank you for saying that, and thank you and everyone else for their help, the pigeons and me are in your debt.
> 
> I'm attaching a picture with the current setup, hopefully it will make sense but there is a bit of a perspective issue that makes judging the distance tricky. The whole thing is about 4 meters long (about 13 feet) and the nest itself is around 1 meter long (3.2 feet) and is obviously on the other side of the blinds. The bricks are there to prevent the wooden planks from tilting and falling when the pigeons jump-land on them. This makes it all sturdy and not move.
> 
> On an unrelated note--is it safe to put dried mung beans (not sprouted) in the feed? I bought some because they looked like they are at a size the pigeons will like, which is smaller than popcorn and bigger than millet.


I have seen other members here feed mung beans. Pigeons do like their legumes.


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## Friend John

*Update*

Just to update, the (two) eggs hatched 10 and 11 days ago, and the squabs are doing well. One was bigger than the other at first, but the smaller one caught up and they are now roughly the same size, and appear to be in good health.

One thing of interest is that the hen actually laid 3 eggs. The parents sat on two of them and one of them was next to the nest they made. Since I couldn't see what they were sitting on, I assumed they removed one of the two eggs and were only sitting on one, but after a few days I managed to see they were actually sitting on two eggs, and the one next to their nest was a third egg, which I removed. All in all, out of 8 egg-laying cycles, the hen laid:

1 egg: 1 time
2 eggs: 6 times
3 eggs: 1 time

I do have a concern, though. I noticed the cock this morning, and he was looking his usual self, but later that day I spotted a yellow growth on his left cere, which was not there earlier that day. Could that be canker? What can I do if it is? Catching him will be difficult, but I'm also worried that he could pass it on to the squabs. He isn't showing any signs of weakness or distress and he eats and drinks normally. His droppings look fine too--green and white (split peas are in the food mix). I have Amoxycillin (as trihydrate) in 500mg capsules, if that helps. Any advice?

I'm attaching a picture, it's the best one I could take at the moment:


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## Ladygrey

From what I’ve read a wild pig will eat any critter that is around and helpless.. pigeons don’t move at night, so let’s hope when they fledge the pigs will be snoozing... what country do you live in? Sounds interesting!


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## Ladygrey

Canker needs a moist environment to live, so it can be seen in the digestive tract, usually in the throat. 

That could possible be a pox lesion, or from a food source that is just stuck there from feeding babies,which , that is what I think it is.


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## Friend John

Ladygrey said:


> Canker needs a moist environment to live, so it can be seen in the digestive tract, usually in the throat.
> 
> That could possible be a pox lesion, or from a food source that is just stuck there from feeding babies,which , that is what I think it is.


Thank you for your input. I did consider that it might be some food that stuck there from the feeding, as I did notice it after he fed the squabs. Hopefully that's what it is. I don't know if I'll be able to catch him so I could look down his throat. If that is a pox lesion, does that mean that he's about to develop full-fledged pox, with growths and everything? I really hope not.


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## Ladygrey

I wouldn’t worry about it, I really think it’s food debris, those pox legions don’t show up that quick.


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## Jay3

It's probably just from feeding the kids. But if it were pox, then not much you could do about it. Never know how many growths they will get, or how bad it will be. But I don't think it is that. Think it's nothing.


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## Friend John

Just wanted to update on a few things:

1. That yellow growth thing was indeed some food debris and everything is fine with the cock.

2. The hen laid two eggs when the squabs were about 16 days old. I was worried that they eggs will hatch while the squabs are still not ready to fledge, since in the past it took some of the squabs more than 30-34 days to fledge. In the past, if eggs hatched while a squab was still using the nest, the parents would chase it away aggressively, which is hard to watch and made me feel very sorry for the poor thing/s. As the squabs grew, my impression was that squab A will be fine if he was forced by the parents to fledge, while squab B would struggle. When the one egg hatched (I removed one because it was rolled to the edge of the nest and was ignored by the parents), the parents indeed chased away squab A, and forced it to fledge. Interestingly, they allowed squab B to continue to stay in the nest and spend the night even though the egg they were incubating had already hatched. 

I just thought it was nice to see that pigeon parents use their discretion and not blindly chase their squabs away. Shows how smart they are. I guess that if I noticed that squab B would need more time than squab A, the parents surely would know even better. A day later, squab B fledged as well, without its parents kicking him\her out.


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## Jay3

Glad they both fledged okay. Thanks for letting us know. 
I would have just put the egg back in the nest, as those things do happen, and seldom are the parents kicking them out. Also it's better for a baby to grow up with a sibling if possible. Thanks for the update.


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## Friend John

Hello to everyone. I'm afraid I have some bad news.

Two days ago the cock left at dusk, as usual, and hadn't returned since. He is a very dedicated and loving mate and parent and it is unlikely he'd just stop showing up altogether, not even as a part of the flock, or for food. I'm afraid something happened to him.

To make matters worse, he and his hen mate are\were in the process of taking care of their squabs, who are 11-12 days old. Now only the hen is left. She does feed them and stays with them during the night. During the day she sits very close by. I make sure to give her plenty of food. Will she be able to take care of both of them? They are probably 10-12 days away from venturing out of the nest and trying to pick up food on their own. Is there something I can do?

This is really heartbreaking, he was such a good bird. Very smart and kind and with a great temperament. I hope he'll turn up but I can't say I'm optimistic.


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## Marina B

That's sad. As long as there's enough food and water close by, she will manage. Just keep things the way they are. At least she does not have to keep them warm. I hope he comes back, let us know if he does.


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## Colombina

Hi John, I'm really sorry to hear the sad news... I fear too that something bad happened to him... Unfortunately there are many dangers outside like predators, traffic, bad people and so on..

Keep monitoring the mum and the babies, if needed you can help them. At least they have a guardian angel.

Keep us updated.


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## Colombina

I want to add a thing... I would make a walk around the neighborhood looking for the husband. 
I would check all hidden places, all buildings (on the ledges, etc), behind illuminated signs and nameplates, etc... Once we looked for an injured pigeon around the neighborhood: we saw him on the outside of the hospital, etc. Long story short we caught him two or three days later and brought him to the vet. He was attacked by a predator, the vet operated him.

I don't hold out much hope but I would give it a try.


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## Friend John

*Update:*

Thank you all for your advice and sympathies. Here is an update on how things stand:

The cock did not return and I couldn't find him. I'm afraid it's a lost cause. The hen, however, managed to feed both squabs and they are now about 23 days old and in good health. They start to peck the ground and manage to eat small seeds, though they still mostly badger the hen for food. The are fully feathered and already flap their wings as training, and even go outside the nest a bit. Overall, the hen really did a great job and I'm confident that both squabs will fledge in about two weeks. 

Birds are fascinating creatures.

After the cock was gone, another bird--a male (yes I'm sure it's a male now) started to get into the nest. At first the hen chased him away and I helped. Every time I'd hear the squabs squeaking I'd run to the nest and that bird was in there, usually attacking them, in which case I'd chase him away. He'd always come back after a few minutes, though.

As time went on, the hen allowed him access to the nest. She'd sit on one side of the opening and watch him as he went in. After a while, he'd just spend time in the nest, and would stop attacking the squabs. Now they aren't scared of him anymore, and he and the hen sit close to one another, sometimes they even sit in the nest together next to the squabs. 

I didn't know what to make of it, until yesterday, when the squabs were no longer frightened when the new bird was in the nest, and the bird would begin to spend time in there without attacking them, and with the apparent permission of the hen. Today I went to the nest, and the new bird left when it saw me (I used to deliberately scare him when he attacked the squabs so he's being cautious when I approach). Then I saw him and the hen "kissing" or "billing" and then they mated, so I guess the hen found a new mate and it didn't take her long at all. I wonder if the new bird will show the squabs how to manage outside once they are able to fly.


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## Marina B

Thanks for the update. I'm glad she found a new mate. It must be so nice to have the time available to witness all of this. One day you can write a book about pigeon behaviour. So I guess there will soon be more eggs to incubate and then more babies.


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## Colombina

Thanks for the update, John.

I'm sorry for the husband (honestly I imagined it) but I'm really glad to hear that the babies are doing well! I'm also glad to hear that the mum found a new mate.


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## Friend John

Marina B said:


> Thanks for the update. I'm glad she found a new mate. It must be so nice to have the time available to witness all of this. One day you can write a book about pigeon behaviour. So I guess there will soon be more eggs to incubate and then more babies.


I think I'll take a break from new babies. I used fake eggs during the winter, not wanting to make rearing babies even more challenging for the couple, so I had a few months of quiet. Maybe I just forgot how much noise the babies make or maybe these two are exceptionally loud and persistent, but it was challenging this time around with all the noise they make, and I do have neighbors, who I don't doubt are able to hear all the squeaking.

I also need to keep the pigeon population down as much as I can, there are already too many of them gathering on my makeshift platform outside the window and making noise. I'm trying to gradually reduce the food I give them but it's really hard to do emotionally.


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## Jay3

I haven't been on here in a while and just saw your thread. I'm really sorry the Dad is gone, but glad all else is going along okay. No, he probably won't help the babies as they venture out. They will have to learn from watching the others. Wonder what happened to the male. Yes, cutting back on the feed would eventually stop them congregating there so much, but I also know how hard that is to do. They will be okay. Thanks for coming back and telling us what happened with them.


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## Friend John

TL;DR

I'm happy to say that both squabs have grown well and have fledged today (the younger one fledged yesterday). They were 45 and 46 days old--by far the longest it ever took for squabs to fledge. 

Long version:

It turned out that the new male mate did not intend to foster the squabs and soon after I posted here he began to attack them again. He was relentless and even kept attacking them after he'd chase them away from the nest and when they stood nowhere close. They were about 14 days old at the time. Once driven out, they'd be chased to where other pigeons stood which caused them to be attacked by several pigeons at once. I had no choice and every time I heard the squabs squeak, I knew it was because the new mate was in the nest attacking them and pushing them out, so I'd go and scare him away. This worked for about 3 minutes and then he was back at it again--it was a very difficult time because the squabs would obviously make so much noise all the time when that happened, starting at 05:30 in the morning.

The solution was to close all the blinds and "lock" the squabs and the hen in, which none of them seemed to mind--they were all very comfortable and content just sitting around. Once every few hours I'd open the blinds and let the hen out if she wanted, then I'd close the blinds again, giving her a few hours out with her new mate. This solution did help but it also meant the squabs were not getting any time outside. Once they got older and bigger and able to eat seeds by themselves I hoped they'll be able to do better but once again, every time they were driven outside they'd get attacked.

In the end, I had no choice but to act as their protector. Once they were old enough (and were actually behind the point squabs usually venture outside), I rearranged all the blinds (they slide) so there was just the nest area and nothing but open space once it ended. Then I'd just stand there and keep back any bird that started making a move at them, preparing to attack. I had to stand like that for hours at a time, and then close the squabs behind the blinds again, so I could get some other things done. But it did work, and they soon started to enjoy the outside and even learned on their first day out to take a bath. Still, when I was away from the window, other birds would try to attack them, and hearing the squeaks, I'd go to the window and open a crack, and the squabs would squeeze in and stay next to me on the inside of the house. In one of their forays outside, before either of them ever flew, the younger one was standing on the ledge and two birds pecked at him and he had no place to go, and it forced him to fly for the first time. It really scared my but he managed to fly a short distance and stand someplace else. I was worried about him because he was much smaller than his sibling but in the end he was feistier (maybe because the new mate was targeting him with his attacks), learned to fly first and fledged first.

Over time they'd feel comfortable hopping on my arm, until one day they decided to use their claws to climb on my shirt and rest on my shoulders. This was the first time for me that a bird would sit on my shoulder. The problem then was they didn't want to leave  Also, they'd leave "presents" and that is still going on so if anyone has a tip about how to make them not poop on me, that will be greatly appreciated.

As time went on, and they learned to fly, they'd leave the nest early in the morning and then the hardest part was over, and I was just waiting for them to officially fledge. The new mate had the nest to himself once again, but when it got dark, the squabs would come back and he wouldn't let them in, so I'd open the window for them, they'd climb on my shoulder and I'd just stand there until it got dark enough and the new mate would fly for the night, and then I'd let the squabs down and they'd go into the nest with the hen, who did not chase them away. This is what went on until yesterday. Jay3 was right and the squabs had to teach themselves everything; the hen remained in the nest, sitting on eggs, and they had no guide or someone to teach them what to do.

The way things are right now is that they fly around all day, come back once or twice during the day, I let them in, feed them, they climb on me, and after a while I let them down and they go about their day. I'm so glad they finally fledged, this was the most challenging rearing I experienced.

On the subject of the new mate, he may be a pigeon but he's a dog. There was a time I really disliked him. Not only did he attack the squabs relentlessly, he'd also go and try to mate with everyone when the hen was sitting on eggs (she laid two more when the squabs were about 30 days old, and I replaced them with fake eggs). I'd expect a new mate to be much more loyal—the old mate was completely devoted to the hen and never did anything like that. I'm given to understand that this is typical behavior for male pigeons, but it's like an abusive stepfather who beats up his stepchildren and cheats on his new wife. 

As for the hen—she did a great job taking care of the two squabs. I made sure she had plenty of food but it still couldn't have been easy. I didn't notice her being sad over her lost mate but I imagine it was mostly because she didn't have time for it and had to take care of two chicks and defend her nest. Still, I'm very surprised it took her so little time to find a new mate (only two weeks). Maybe she felt she had to do it so her nest will be safe? 

I'd like to thank everyone for their help and support, and I'm leaving a few pictures of the squabs.

P.S.

I found a tiny egg the other day where all the pigeons hang around. Is this an egg that was laid prematurely, or is this an egg of a different bird (maybe a Laughing dove? There are some around)?

For the sake to proportionality, I placed the egg (the small one) next to a fake egg I use for the pigeons, which is indeed at the same size as a regular pigeon egg.


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## Marina B

That is so sweet! Climbing up on your shoulder! Looks like you are their pigeon daddy now, the one they go to for protection and food. If it wasn't for you, the new pigeon would probably either have killed them, or chased them away and they would have starved. I'm just glad you have so much time available to look after them.

Yes, that egg looks like the egg of a laughing dove.


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## Marina B

Nothing you can do about the "presents" they leave. That's normal.


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## Colombina

Thanks for the update!

Excellent job! As I said, you are their guardian angel 😇! 

They are adorable! Even some of my pigeons love sitting on my shoulders, legs and even...on my head 😁 !

The tiny egg could be the egg of a dove but also a deformed pigeon egg (smaller size egg) caused by a lack of calcium. Honestly I can't tell it from a photo.


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## Friend John

After hearing some noises at night for two nights straight, I found that there is a mouse (I think it's a field mouse but I don't know anything about mice) that shows up at night and enters the nest where the hen sleeps. It scared her enough that she left the nest at 23:00 when it was entirely dark, and while she was sitting on (fake) eggs. She spent the night somewhere else and came back in the morning, but she doesn't go in the nest and has abandoned the eggs, though it was the time for her to do so right now anyway. The mouse is significantly smaller than the hen. (edit: she later spent some time in the nest but only with her mate).

The question is, what can I do? The mouse is on the outside already. Even if I caught it and released it, mice never forget their routes to food, or so I'm told. The thing is like a ninja--I live on the 2nd floor and to get to where the nest is from outside it has to climb on the outside wall of the building, which basically a 90 degree climb on a vertical wall. I've also seen it run away and disappear when it sees me, and it scurries away and somehow it is able to reach the edge of the platform and get away, again at a 90 degree angle straight down.

I've tried to block away whatever creases I could, so we'll see if it will have any effect, but is there a way to make it go away (without killing it)?


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## Marina B

Is it a mouse or a rat? If you can catch it and release it far away from your home, it won't come back. I've seen videos on youtube 'how to catch a mouse without killing it". I've had success with the bucket method where you put a wire through a plastic bottle (the plastic bottle is then hanged above the empty bucket). When the mouse tries to get to the peanut butter on the bottle, he will fall into the bucket.

Otherwise, there are natural products that will keep them away. Spray some lemon and vinegar, hopefully that will also help.


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## JennyM

I have no advise for the mouse problem, but I just want to say that I really enjoy reading your updates! Sorry that the hen's original mate never came back.


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## Friend John

Marina B said:


> Is it a mouse or a rat? If you can catch it and release it far away from your home, it won't come back. I've seen videos on youtube 'how to catch a mouse without killing it". I've had success with the bucket method where you put a wire through a plastic bottle (the plastic bottle is then hanged above the empty bucket). When the mouse tries to get to the peanut butter on the bottle, he will fall into the bucket.
> 
> Otherwise, there are natural products that will keep them away. Spray some lemon and vinegar, hopefully that will also help.


Thanks, I'll try that. It's not a rat, I don't think. Based on how it looks I'd say it's a field mouse and it would be kind of cute if it wasn't for the well being of the birds. It looks like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8115407147

How do I know it's there? I hear the clacking of the fake eggs in the next room so I turn on the light and there it is (on the outside of the window). I've since removed the fake eggs since they were abandoned.

It did come back again even after I filled the gaps as well as I could. I'll try to get a mouse trap (non lethal) and then release it somewhere somewhat far (for a mouse). In the meanwhile, I made sure to clean any remaining food every night, and I also close the shutters completely so it has no way to get into the nest. Hopefully it will just learn that there is no food there for it and move on by itself.

Right now the hen is between clutches and I expect her to lay more eggs soon but for now, she spends less time in the nest as a whole. But she seems to have regained some courage and she does spend time in there again.


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## Friend John

JennyM said:


> I have no advise for the mouse problem, but I just want to say that I really enjoy reading your updates! Sorry that the hen's original mate never came back.


Thank you JennyM. 

I try to only post when it matters, because I don't want to take up other people's time that could be spent on helping others, and I don't want to clog things up too much.

As for the old mate, I really miss him. I disliked the new one because of his behavior (trying to mate with other birds and attacking the squabs) but now that he has the nest all to himself his behavior is much better. He also doesn't try to mate with other pigeons anymore, so maybe he was only doing that when the relationship was new and he wasn't fully committed just yet. The hen is being courted by others all the time and she just slaps them away with her wing. Classy lady.


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