# pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)



## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

I would like some advice for a pigeon with symptoms that I haven’t come across in our flock before.

It’s a pure white female, called Ladylove. She had chicks about 2 months ago. She lives with her mate Buddy in a nestbox on our house- and the 2 chicks still live there too, though Buddy is beginning to try and “chase them “ off so perhaps he has more eggs in mind!. He has been bringing sticks up to the box over the past week and we thought she might be about to lay. There is another pair who keep trying to take over that box as a nest. They are all part of a free flock who live at our house and that we feed and take care of. 

4 days ago we noticed a clear green splodge on the paving below the box with undigested seed in it – and were not sure which bird it was from. The next day I saw her standing on the path near the box when most of the other birds were “up”. She didn’t move away and looked like she was closing her eyes – and looked “not normal”. We presumed then that the poop was hers.

We caught her and brought her inside and put her in a cage. Gave tonic and probiotic in her water and waited to see what her poop looked like. She wasn’t pooping much. When she did, there was undigested seed in it.

I Googled this and we weren’t sure exactly what it was, so chose to start her on some Enrovet (Baytril) in the meantime in case it was a bacterial infection. Proventricular Dilatation Disease was one thing mentioned re vomiting and undigested seed. 


On Wed I put her outside a bit in the cage when the flock was fed and she did eat – and yesterday she seemed to eat well. We warmed her cage with an infrared light for the last 2 nights. Her poop still had undigested seed in on Thursday morning. She ate quite a bit yesterday (Thurs) afternoon while she was inside, but in the sun. Some of her poop looked more normal yesterday afternoon and didn’t seem to have seed in it, so we thought that she was improving. 

Yesterday afternoon we gave her a second dose of Enrovet (0.05ml – based on a previous dose given by an Avian vet for one of our pigeons) .I checked her poop earlier in the evening, and again there was mostly undigested seed in a bit of clear green fluid “poop”, and then a bit later it looked like she had vomited (we presume) quite a bit of mostly undigested seed. 

I spoke to the owner of a large local petshop who supply pigeon fanciers with meds and feed – and he suggested that I give her a med for Canker (Meditrich) as it might be a crop canker. We have looked at her throat and don’t see signs of it there – but he said it might be lining the crop which he said prevents the enzymes getting to the seed to start digestion.

We will give her it this morning (Friday) as I am not sure if it needs to be given when she has food in her crop.

Later note:
I tried to login last night (Thurs) to get some advice for this morning, but wasn’t successful so am trying again this morning.

It seems she vomited again last night (Thurs) , as there is a patch in front of her. Her poop this morning is a mix of white and green quite runny ( more than some was yesterday) and doesn’t have undigested seed in it. She slept near the light and looks puffed this morning

Buddy is a very handsome white pigeon and special bird for us. His previous “wife” was taken by a falcon 3 years ago when they had 2 weeks old chics – which he then raised solo with a lot of seed “on tap”. So we would really like to see Ladylove restored to health and back with him again .

I don’t know if it is disease or anything to do with an egg? I don’t know if the vomiting was re the disease or re the Enrovet? 

Please, any advice from anyone who has had similar symptoms – as to how we should treat her? I tried to get an appointment with an Avian vet but she is full today - and only back on Monday.

Thanks in advance.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I would definitely treat for canker, meditrich is a good choice of med to use. 50 mg once a day for 7 to 10 days, sometimes it needs to be given up to 2 weeks. Best to give the meds on a full crop, as they sometimes can vomit when the crop is empty. You can also add apple cider vinegar and probiotics to her drinking water. Acv 5 ml to 1 l of drinking water every day.

You will have to forcefeed her if she's not eating. Green and creamy poop is starvation droppings and the reason there's no more seeds in the droppings indicate that she has no food in her crop. Best food to forcefeed are defrosted peas (warmed up in lukewarm water). Put her on your lap facing to the right (if you are righthanded). Reach over her body with your lefthand and open the beak with your fingers. Put the pea with the righthand into her beak over the tongue and let her swallow. If she spits it out, you're not putting the pea in deep enough. Try to get 30 into her for a start, and tomorrow try 50 peas 3 times daily.

If the meditrich is a 100mg tablet, you can just split in half and also put deep down into her throat. Sometimes they show an improvement after 3 days, sometimes it takes longer. Let us know how she's doing.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

*pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)*

Thanks for your reply

I did get her to the vet on Friday afternoon. She did a crop smear and found some Megabacteruim on the slide. She said that does cause the symptoms of undigested seed. Unfortunately they did not have the meds usually used to treat it (Amphotericin) and so she gave my another one (Ketoconazole) for the weekend and to see how Ladylove is doing. And to continue with the Enrovet(Baytril) for possible secondary infections. I have probiotics and ACV in her water but she doesn't drink much. We have kept a light on in her cage all the time for warmth.

We went away for the weekend and took Ladylove and all her meds etc. with us, but after still being perky and alert on Friday afternoon she seems to be deteriorating. After eating quite a bit on Friday morning, she has just pecked at bits of things in her cage but eaten very little since then. We did try the peas on Saturday but she brought them up during the evening. That was the first time since Thursday evening that she had vomited again. 

I will check in at the vet tomorrow morning and ask if they can order the correct meds for this and hope that it comes "in time" and helps. Obviously with not digesting much and eating less she is losing weight and getting weaker. 

It seems that often when their immune systems are down, then they get multiple conditions and it gets complex - so the vet suggested we treat "what we know" to start.

Thanks


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

I hope she will be ok. Maybe try feeding her less peas more often. Maybe the vet can show you how to tube-feed her formula while she's recovering.

Keep us updated plse.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Take Marina's advice as she gives good advice. I would give about 30 peas 3 times a day, and when she keeps it all down, then you can increase it slowly. If she gets 50 peas, I would do it 2 times a day. You need to wait for the crop to empty before feeding again. If you cannot tell by the crop, then you can tell be how much she is passing in droppings. If she isn't passing enough droppings, then food isn't digesting. You don't want to feed more at that point. If that happens try giving some warmed baby applesauce with a bit of warm water. That will usually help the crop to move things along. Wait till crop is emptying and try feeding again with fewer peas.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Amphotericin and ketoconazole I believe are antifungals. Is nystatin available, another antifungal? Am not familiar with megabacterium...?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Did the vet check for worms? The Last wild pigeon I treated for canker and bacterial infection didn't come good until I wormed her (2 weeks after i started her on metronodazole and antibiotics). She had ropes and ropes of tape worms in her gizzard, which interfere with digestion and cause undigested seeds to be in the poop.

With sick wild pigeons, you can usually count on more than one problem being present at the same time.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Nystatin is easily available at any pharmacy without prescription.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

*pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)*

Thanks everyone.

Update:
The Amphotericin that the vet ordered on Monday still hasn't arrived - so she is still on the Ketoconazole (in am - now day 6). I decided to stop the Enrovet for one night to see whether or not it affected her vomiting and gave her 50mg Meditrich that night (Tuesday) as well as last night. I had given her a 100mg Meditrich tablet on Friday pm. I get concerned with birds having too many meds at one time and then ending up with Candida.

On Tuesday morning her activity level had improved and she was trying to eat more often. She has a big variety of send in her cage so she can choose. - and she ate mostly smaller seed like canola and linseed. She was eating more yesterday morning and the fecal matter in her poop, though still green and loose, had bulked up and she was pooping far more often - so it looked like things were improving.

Yesterday she didn't vomit (usually in the evenings) for the first time since Saturday. And her poop looks a little better.

So I am not sure if its the Ketoconazole that is slowly helping, or the doses of Meditrich. Also not sure whether to start the Enrovet (Baytril) again? The other meds (Ampho) may arrive today.

An interesting aside to her story is that after 2 days of her not being in her box, it seems her mate Buddy has presumed her "gone/dead" and started wooing up a young little female on Friday. When we got back on Sunday evening after being away the weekend - the new female was already sleeping in the box, and he was building a nest. So I have been trying to chase her out as we haven't given up on Ladylove and hope to see her restored back home! This morning we managed to catch Bud and now have him loose in our tiled sunroom to stop his romantic antics, and also to show him that Ladylove is alive.. and hopefully getting well. 3 years ago when his first wife Grace got Paramyxo, he stood by her for weeks till she recovered - it was awesome to watch their story. We put a plank in the window so he could come and go freely. We have put some balls of newspaper in the box to stop other birds from taking it over as Bud isn't there to defend it and plenty others "eye" it in the hope of moving in. 


On another aside - I wondered if she didn't catch anything from our one budgie who died 2 months ago. We only had him for about 7 months and he seemed to be not such a healthy little guy. I bought him from a petshop to keep a little female company who had flown into our garden. He shredded his feathers often and one morning though I had seen him eating just prior , I found him dead in the cage. Some budgie fundi nearby said he "had gone light". The flock of pigeons is always trying to eat any budgie seed that falls from the cage or when I blow seed off their food container or clean the cage tray. Ladylove had been rearing chics so maybe her immune system was low and she may have caught something from him??

In the past 3 days I have noticed that the 2 budgies poop has gone greener and is more moist.... so maybe they have this "bug" too.?? I have never treated a budgie before. Any ideas with that?

thanks


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You shouldn't have stopped the enrovet. She may need that to kill bacteria. By stopping it you could be giving the bacteria a chance to build an immunity to the drug.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Ketoconazole is a anti-fungal med used for yeast infections, so that will help with her not getting candida. How long must you treat with the Enrovet? One has to do the full course, even if they start improving.

Same with the meditrich. It's no use giving meds randomly, meditrich is an antibiotic and needs to be given 7 to 10 days. Why don't you leave the meditrich for now and concentrate on what the vet subscribed. Continue with the Ketoconazole (this was probably subscribed cause she was put on Enrovet) and do the full course of Enrovet.

Buddy is a busy boy! How did they react when they met again? Can't give advice regarding your budgies. I'm sure there must be a forum like this for budgies as well.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope she continues to improve.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Enrovet is Enrofloxacin. Need to take it for 10 days anyway. Some things take longer.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

*pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)*

I carried on with the Enrovet last night. I was told last week 5-7 days by the guy who sells avian meds as it was a harsh medicine ( we had given for 6 days) , the vet says they even give it for up to 3 weeks. I see the second bottle she gave did say for 10 days.


Ladylove hasn’t vomited over the past 48 hours so that aspect seems to have stabilized.
She has tried flapping her wings inside the cage and is generally more alert, looks more normal and not puffed up

BUT her poop isn’t normal yet. It has still been more green colour and soft.

3-4 days ago there was more bulk and more poop, now the bulk has decreased.

She seems to be drinking a LOT over the last 2 days and her poop changes during the day or overnight from initially ones with bulk and urates in - to very clear, mostly watery ones with just a little streaks of fecal matter in by the afternoon or by the early hours of the morning. Last night she probably drank nearly 100mls.

Any idea why that is happening and what that indicates? I hope it isn’t liver damage from the antibio’s and antifungal??

And if there is anything to do to help this?

If it’s her liver – then I am really concerned re the other meds which arrived today

It is called Fungizone (amphotericin B) – and it was dispensed in a bottle with directions to give 1ml into her mouth twice a day. It is written on the sticker : Funizone inj 50mg vial. Seems it been made into a 5mg/ml solution at the vets.My husband picked it up and didn’t see the vet to ask questions.

See below a bit I found on Beauty of Birds website regarding Medications Used in Avian and Exotic Medicine & Pharmaceutical Terms. It says nothing about giving it by mouth, and it sound like a potentially dangerous one?: 

Amphotericin-B (Fungizone): a newer, antifungal antibiotic used to treat fungal infections that do not respond to other antifungal drugs, esp. Aspergillus; Lotion, cream, ointment, intravenously, injected directly into trachea, or delivered to the respiratory tract via nebulization; may cause bone marrow and kidney toxicity; the most commonly used drug in veterinary medicine for systemic fungal infections. In avian medicine, Aspergillus infections are commonly diagnosed and amphotericin B is widely used to treat such cases; typically administered to birds intravenously or intratracheally (IT) or via nebulization; despite its potential for toxic effects, continues to be one of the first drugs selected in both human and veterinary medicine to treat systemic fungal infections

Now I don’t know what to do!!

The vet hasn't seen her since last Friday as we have been waiting for the meds so hasn't seen her poop changes through the week and the current watery poop.

We let Bud last night out again to go and defend his nestbox as his 2 rivals were trying to take it over. He did recognise Ladylove inside and did some pronking around and she was twitching her wing in the cage ... but the little female was around this morning.... Stud Bud .....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's hard for us to tell you what to do, as we don't even know what the bird has. The vet should know, and should have told you what the bacteria were. That is information we don't have. You should see a vet you trust. One that knows birds, and hopefully pigeons. We cannot tell you what to do, as we don't know what the vet knows. Do you know what the bird actually has for bacteria?

Drinking a lot of water but not eating much can be canker or coccidia. Coccidia can also cause droppings with seed in them.

Here is a post from PT about the same problem.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/undigested-seeds-in-the-droppings-70271.html

Also I wouldn't let Bud out, unless you want him to go with the other female. Can you somehow cover or close off the nest box so no one takes it over?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Is this the same vet that couldn't save the other sick pigeon you had? If you know of pigeonclubs nearby, why don't you contact them regarding a vet they use for their sick pigeons?

Don't give the meds if you're unsure about it. The vet should be more specific, you're the one that's the paying customer at the end of the day. So she did show improvement? Could be because of the meditrich you gave her, but not enough to get rid of the canker.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

*pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)*

This vet works/runs at the Exotic section (Avian and other) of a large vet and surgery practise/emergency hospital - and is the same one I went to for our other pigeon.

The vet had said she found Megabactria - now called Avian Gastric Yeast - from a crop wash. 

She gave the initial anti-fungal as she didn't have Ampho B previous Friday. She then ordered it on the Monday and it took 4 days to come. They had to check the insert for the dosage - and I didn't pick up the meds so didn't get to ask her anything on Friday. Her vet nurse had said she would email me something - but our wifi is down as our telephone went dead on Saturday so cant check!!

My concern is that the other bits of info I saw re Ampho B and pigeons on the web - they mention giving Ampho B via crop need or other means (intravenous/nebulise) - and not via syringe into the mouth. There is a good article by Dr Colin Walker on Megabacteria Infection in Birds

I haven't given the meds yet as I am waiting to ask her if that is 100% safe and correct way to give it - and will have to wait till Monday. I just wondered if any one else has any knowledge about how to administer it - and if it was safe by mouth. I have kept on with the initial anti -fungal.

It seems to be the right med for AGY - presuming that is what she has - and there may be other secondary things, but she has had Enrovet which deals with cocci and other bacterial things , and canker meds.

Her watery poop improved some (not so watery as those 2 days) and she isn't drinking so much now but it does still change consistency and is soft and sometimes more runny - and a grey-green.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A vet that just sees birds, and not other exotics is usually much more knowledgeable in birds. Giving any liquid by mouth is a possibility to aspirate the bird. You have to be very careful to be sure it doesn't go down the wrong tube. It is easier and quicker to just crop needle it into the crop, which is why it is done that way. If you cannot crop feed, then giving it by mouth, it still ends up in the same place.
Maybe would be a good idea to have them teach you how to crop feed. That would make things a lot easier on you.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

How is Ladylove doing?


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

*pigeon with undigested seed in poop (3 days) and vomiting (yesterday)*

Sorry for the delay in updating on Ladylove. - I have been meaning to post for the last few days.

I took her to the vet on Monday 24th to fill her in on the previous week of meds and progress and to chat about the Ampho B. She said this was an injectable form of Ampho and not a tablet in water so it would be ok to give by mouth.

She did another crop wash and fecal test and found some worms and some bacteria in the poop. Ladylove seemed to be on the general up regarding her activity and condition, with some fluctuations in her poop  and so we decided not to change to the Ampho B but to finish the course of the 2 weeks of the Keto. We thought to either finish the Enrovet course ( 2nd one really as I had stopped for 2 days) or give her Meditrich to see if that sorted out the poop fluctuations. Perhaps there was a bacteria that Enrovet wasn't covering.

I gave her a Mediworm on the Monday evening and actually decided then to rather finish the Enrovet. She had her last Keto dose yesterday morning and we will give a last Enrovet tomorrow morning. And then we will release her tomorrow. She has had probiotics and ACV daily.

We have let her loose in the sunroom for the past few days and Bud has visited during the day  and is cooing and wooing her again. 

We may check up one her during the week by catching her again and keeping her in overnight to do a "poop" check. I will add some probiotics to the dish by the box. Actually her poop now looks healthier than a lot of the rest of our flock of birds who perch overnight at our house and so I am thinking I need to put something in the waterbowls outside that they drink out of. They are generally looking a little lose and greenish. Perhaps some ACV?

She's been inside now for nearly 2.5 weeks and will have lost some of her flying fitness which they need to scatter when the goshawks and falcons come around. They seem to have been around more the past week and the birds have been scattering often during the days. We lost a bird to them during the week - his perch was empty perch on Wednesday evening and he never came back 

I have tried to find out if there are any Avian vets nearby - but have just been given the name of someone about 45 mins drive away that I went to before with a little concussed laughing dove who flew into our lounge window. I wasn't very impressed - I waited for 30+mins while he talked on the phone, then he charged me ZAR800 for an Xray and exam and meds.... and the little thing died the next day. I think he could have been honest and known that probably its condition didn't warrant that amount of "treatment" from his experience! 

I have previous tried to find contact numbers for pigeons clubs to ask advice and eventually found one guy who lives nearby with a loft at home . I may try and contact him to find out about vets they know of.

So hopefully Ladyloves' story has a happy ending.... and I hope the goshawks stay away to give her a chance to integrate safely back into the flock and build up some flying fitness.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions - they are all appreciated and its good to know that there are experienced and caring "pigeon people" out there to be able to ask help from


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh how lovely that she's well on the road to recovery. Thank you for being so kind and caring to this little girl.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She needs to be wormed again after 2 weeks from the first worming. The first time, you get the worms, but not the eggs as they are not affected. You worm again 2 weeks later to get the eggs which have since hatched. Many will even worm them again on the third week. But if you don't do that, then do the second worming at least, or she will just have worms again when the eggs hatch. Always worm twice like that.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Glad to hear she's doing well. Maybe you can start adding acv and probiotics to their drinking water twice or 3 times a week. That will be good for all the pigeons drinking there. I hope she and Buddy will raise plenty of babies in the future.


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## sunbirdy (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks for the advice re the deworming. Maybe Bud needs to be dewormed too? - I don't know if worms "spread"? Their last 2 chicks are still perching on the box too.

I will add some probiotics and ACV to 3 main drinking bowls. Guidelines I have seen are about 5 - 10ml per litre of ACV. I use Protexin probiotics and their guideline is 5-10g per litre. Just have to go easy on changing all the water daily as we have severe water restrictions due to a serious drought in our area and drastically low dams. About 23 pigeons roost at our house and feed and drink here .... but more, maybe another 20, come in to feed and drink as well as about 80+ doves daily. Hence the falcons and goshawks come prowling!! 

Thanks


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