# Found Pigeon



## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I own a retail grooming salon and some business owners down the street informed me that there was a pigeon hanging around their shop for the last few days. It seems to have some sort of injury to the one eye doesn't look very healthy some of his feathers are stuck together. I brought him over to my salon in a dog crate gave him some fresh water and some pigeon and dove bird seed and put him in a warm dark place with a night light but not much air flow. Please i don't know what else to do for this poor little bird any suggestions would be very appriechiated. How do i tell what happened to his eye is this a infection/injury/parasite? I called all the people i know to help me such as spca and a owl rescue avariy but have had no response to me calls.

Cindy


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello, and thank you for caring !

1) Where are you located ? We may have members nearby.

2) can you check him/her for other injuries such as scratches or missing feathers or cuts or scrapes and such.

3) Is the eye swollen, or bleeding at all. if the latter, can you rinse it out with room temperature water....rinse/flush out any cuts or scrapes with water.

4) 'air flow' ....if you mean in a room with no ventilation, that's OK. if you mean in a closet sorta place, that's not so OK. Also...dark need not be pitch black....just dim (probably better than pitch black).

5) can you post a photo ?


BTW...don't worry about handling a pigeon. They do NOT pass anything onto humans. Just take the usual steps of washing your hands and such after handling. 

Sounds like he will likely need some meds and some sort of treatment. Keep an eye on whether he/she ate anything. Could be she will need to be handfed as well.

When we get your location we can maybe find another forum member or hopefully suggest to you a veterinary or wildlife facility which treats pigeons.

And thanks again for saving the guy/girl !!!!


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Hello Jaye 

1. Im in Kelowna, BC, Canada
2. I was too worried about his mental state about being "captured" i didn't think to look for other injuries. There was no obvious signs of injury and no blood.
3. no blood at all but yes seems to be swollen, the people down the street think that maybe the eye is even gone.
4. I put him in the washroom with the light off with a night light
(He is two minutes away at the store....I can't have pets where i live)
5. i will work on a photo 

He has ate the handfull of seeds i put on the bottom of the carrier and has had about five bowl movements all appear normal black formed with a little white. Sorry i have no experience with birds you will have to forgive my ignorance.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cindy...he may not be able to eat on his own and so you will need to hand feed him.
Here are some pre-written instructions. They were written for feeding baby pigeons but they work for adults too.
Also...keep in mind that pigeons don't see well in the dark and so he may not be able to see the food and water you have put out for him.

You can hand feed defrosted corn and peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the piece of corn and peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat. 
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own. 
This is a wonderful method for teaching babies to eat because they feel the whole food in their mouth and it’s soft and easy to pick up and hang on to. The next step… seeds. 
The crop is located right below the throat and with food it fills up like a little balloon. The peas and corn make it lumpy and squishy.

In the morning, look in your phone book for veterinarians that treat birds or exotic animals and you may be able to find someone that will check this bird out.


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> Cindy...he may not be able to eat on his own and so you will need to hand feed him.
> Here are some pre-written instructions. They were written for feeding baby pigeons but they work for adults too.
> Also...keep in mind that pigeons don't see well in the dark and so he may not be able to see the food and water you have put out for him.
> 
> ...



She just said that the bird ate the handfull of seed she feed in on the bottom of the crate.... Read before you post....


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank you for the correction...yopigeonguy. I'll remember your advise.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Help please*

Well i managed to attach some photos,(kinda blury...best i can do from a phone cam) can anyone tell me what seems to be wrong with him? I went up and checked on him and did what you advised to run some room temperture water over his eye and he seems to be in very good spirits, i gently dripped some water over his closed eye and tried to free some brownish build up from off the eye lid. I will check it again in the morning and get my groomer to help me repeat the process. I don't know of any vet that will do free work on a pigeon, is there somthing i can do that won't cost me an arm and a leg to help him out. I can't afford to buy treatments/medicine for this bird and the only people i thought might help never bothered to return my calls so im kinda in the dark and in a tight spot in what i can do for him/her. Any help/comments/suggestions greatly appriechiated.

Cindy


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Bless your heart-and his! He is such a pretty bird except for that painful looking eye. Do you have any "people" eye ointment with antibiotics in it? Ask around. definitely keep up the rinsing and if you can't find opthalmic ointment, put a little bacitracin or neosporin around it. A heating pad set on low, covered with a towel may make him feel more comfortable. He prob needs antibiotics but I will let someone more knowledgable cover that. Good job for saving him!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Cindy,

Thanks for helping this little guy out, the photos are helpful.

Looks to be some kind of trauma injury, could have been clipped by a car or run into something he didn't see. Eye is swollen shut, but underneath, I am hoping, his eye will be OK. Bath the eye area 2-3 times a day with a warm saline solution, easy to make 1 teaspoon salt to 1 quart of warm water. Very lightly coat the eye with some antibiotic ointment (not cream type) after bathing the eye. The rest sounds OK for now, eating and drinking on his own is good and his droppings sound like they are as they should be. May just need a little care until his eye is back in gear, we can reassess as we go along. Looks to be an abrasion on his wing, you could put a light coating of ointment on this as well. Is he standing and walking OK?

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Thank You*

Thanks to everyone who replyed to my post. Very good information, I will continue to help this bird till recovery. Will do everything you told me too and i do have some ointment at the store in my first aid kit i will put on this morning after his eye bath. He is eating well, and standing and walking fine on his own, i just worrie about him getting enough water....i tryed last night after his eye bath to dip his beak in the water to let him know where it was as someone suggested but he would have nothing to do with that so i just let him be. i will have to watch more carefuly today to make sure he is actually getting water. Will keep you posted on his recovery im sure i will have more questions as time goes on.

Cindy


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

NFZ Puffer would be great on this wound.
Kurps


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Update on day three recovery*

Eye seems to be doing better, but is weeping alot of pus, wing isn't looking to much better, but guess it takes time.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, I believe it's time to get this little one started on a course of antibiotics to be on the safe side. Any word from the Owl rescue place, I would tend to lean toward them, instead of the SPCA, for many times organizations like that don't have the time or resources to treat and rehab a pigeon, the just euthanize them, perhaps the Owl rescue could offer you some guidance for a local rehabber. Is there a possibility of getting him into a vet? 

If these are not possibilities, or not working out, there are two antibiotics that will work found at many pets stores links are below. Also, you could ask your family or a friends if the have any antibiotics around for themselves or their pets, we most likely need just one pill or tablet. Some common ones would be; Amoxicillin, Augmentin/aka/Clavamox/aka/Amoxicillin/Clavulanate Acid, Baytril/aka/Enrofloxacin, Trimethoprim-Sulfa/aka/Sulfatrim, Septra or Bactrim, Ciprofloxacin/aka/Cipro, Azithromycin/aka/Zithromax, Doxycycline/aka/Vibramycin, and Cephalexin/aka/Keflex, there are other please let us know what you come up with.

Antibiotics at the pet store:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=6094
http://www.pet-discount-supply.com/birds/marvel_aid_antibiotic-eid304.htm

With the second one, get the large bottle, as this med is really meant for small cage birds and a pigeon is going to use up and need quite a bit more, as with this med you don't just give the bird a little, but use it to entirely replace a bird's drinking water.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Looks to be some kind of trauma injury, could have been clipped by a car or run into something he didn't see. Eye is swollen shut, but underneath, I am hoping, his eye will be OK.


Yes agreed often the swelling of tissue around the eye will actually sorta 'sink' it into a pigeon's head so it appears it's gone - hopefully that's the case here. Also agree w\Dobato - *antibiotcs* are now a MUST ! BTW - _don't use Neosporin_ especially around the eye - it's an oil-based topical and that's not very good for bird injuries really. Flushing w\saline is good - but you really need to get some sort of *anti-inflammatory *! FORUM - does anyone now of anybody around BC ? Maybe they'd be willing to send some Medacam ? Barring that - CINDY - can you go get some Children's Motrin or Children's Advil (liquid suspension - 100mg\5ml). Then get a 1cc plastc syringe from a pet store or the like. Give your pal .05cc of the Advil\Motrn (that's 1\2 of .1cc so it's a tiny amount really) 2x\day (dosages 9 hours apart). This will help both w\pain and inflammation - so maybe that can bring the soft tissue of the eye area back down a bit. LASTLY -if not drinking - scroll back above and read Charis' post on handfeeding veggies- peas and corn are great for hydrating as well as nutrition !
Cindy - PM me your address and can send you some Cipro via Express Mail with instructions - but from SF to BC will still take a couple of days so better that you can come up w\some locally


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I have medacam...what kind of dose does he need?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow - really ? That's great ! is it liquid ? if so - the typical suspension\dilution for birds is *1.5mg\ml * With that dilution give *.1cc, 2x daily* (9 hrs apart) for 4-5 days. If the strength is not 1.5mg\ml tell us what it is. (Now all you need is an antibiotic)

((Just as a note...this dosage is based upon the labels of two prescriptions from my Avian vet (2 different avian vets working out of the same hospital, actually) for 2 different ill adult pigeons....prescriptions issued 6 months apart.
I have rec'd a PM from a member suggesting that the dosage is too high. 
I do _not_ concur, as they were both issued by hecka excellent Avian Vets. but if one was so inclined, I do suppose you can trim it back to .08cc. 
But the .1cc dosage has never had an ill effect on any adult pigeon I have ever used it on....and there have been a good half-dozen other prescriptions beyond these last two as well......)
In an instance where one would just be trying to take the edge off of an injury, perhaps a lower dosage would do...but this pigeon has serious soft-tissue damage and inflammation going on....so the .1cc is pretty appropriate and certainly not approaching dangerous).


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh k sorry i thought that was dosage for the motrin or Advil.

Medacam ? Barring that - CINDY - can you go get some Children's Motrin or Children's Advil (liquid suspension - 100mg\5ml). Then get a 1cc plastc syringe from a pet store or the like. Give your pal .05cc of the Advil\Motrn (that's 1\2 of .1cc so it's a tiny amount really) 2x\day (dosages 9 hours apart).


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Metacam oral suspension 10ml but then is says meloxicam 1.5 mg/ml


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

lol sorry im trying to keep up


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Well i have some Nitrofurantoin Macrobid 100mg on hand will that work? how much of the capsule do i use and how?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, what it means is there is 10mL of medicine in the bottle you have of Metacam (trade name Metacam, drug name meloxicam, same thing) and there is 1.5mg of pure medicine (Metacam/Meloxicam) for each 1 (one)mL. Give her to the first line on a 1mL/cc syringe, .10cc. Curious, why do you have Metacam around?

What about the antibiotics????? Need to get going on this part.

Rehabber/Rescue?

Karyn

The Nitrofurantoin you have is not recommended for use in pigeons, how about any of the others on the list I gave you, we need to get started ASAP. Pet store meds?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I have a cat and i accidently steped on his paw and thought i might have hurt him so i brought him to the vet and they gave me a bottle of metacam. Didn't use much and he started walking around fine so i had the bottle handy. Good thing for Pigeon i guess.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, good for pain relief in many types of animals.

Other antibiotics?

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Rehabber/Rescue this is a small town don't exatly have many options here, there is a owl aviator about an hour drive from me who doesn't answer his phone....and an spca who would most likely put him down. Believe me this isn't somthing i planned on doing for the next two weeks to a month....i will try and phone again tomorrow but i have got to say i think im his only chance.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, almost any pet store, even small ones, usually have the two antibiotics I mentioned to see if they have, this may be your best bet. Please do also ask around, family, friends, (get them to ask their family and friends) human or animal ones, somewhere there someone has a single pill they could let you have, push a little I know you can come up with something, be creative. Do you or a friend know a druggist that could be asked for a single pill from the list (preferably Cipro)? If you have a relationship with a regular drug store, they may give you a single pill, it doesn't hurt to ask.

The vet you took the cat to, sympathetic enough to help out with a little antibiotics, or to see the bird?

Do you have a health food store in town you could pick up a bottle of colloidal silver from, preferably brand name, Sovereign Silver?

And you're right, you are this little guy's best chance,

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pigeon day 4*

I did check the pet store near my work today but they were out of stock, I will go tomorrow morning and pick up the two antibiotics at the pet store or try a pharmacist. Here is anouther picture and will let you know tomorrow around five on how i made out.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

he flew accross the room after i gave him his last bath tonight so his wing must be healing, i noticed the scab came off today was sitting on the bottom of his pen.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I have some collidol silver at the store for grooming incase of minor scraches or burns I will bring it home. Would i just spray some on his wing or for the eye as well?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

i know this must be very time consuming for you, i appologize for you having to take me by the hand with all this but hopfuly once i get the antibiotics tomorrow i won't have so many questions.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dahlilla said:


> I have some collidol silver at the store for grooming incase of minor scraches or burns I will bring it home. Would i just spray some on his wing or for the eye as well?


I am not the resident expert here on colloidal silver, but from what I have read here, that would be helpful .. both the eye and the wing. Our moderator, Treesa, has a lot of experience and knowledge regarding colloidal silver .. I'm sure she will be along tomorrow to comment.

Terry


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, when people come here to Pigeon-Talk, we don't have expectations for them to know a lot about these birds, if anything at all. Them trying to help a sick or injured bird says enough in itself, and we are happy to try the best we can to work with them to help the bird get well gain, so ask as many questions as you need to, it's not a problem.

Although the photo you've posted isn't nearly as clear as the others, I was actually a little more pleased when I saw it, to me it appears better than the last one posted. With the colloidal silver, it's easy to use, just a few drops directly into the eye, then dip a Q-Tip in some, so that it is very wet, and gently wipe around the eye, that's it, do this a few times a day.

Please keep us updated on the meds.

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Don't 'spray' the silver into the eye - spray it onto something and dab it around the infected area - being sure to keep it out of the socket itself - is that the eye appearing now ? Did you get the antibiotics today ? You are dong a very good job and yes - sounds as if *you* are this pigeon's best hope so keep up the medacam and quite seriously - some sort of antibiotic needs to start today.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, up until now, I have been a little focused on the injuries. I think it may be wise to back up a bit and make sure there are no underlying health issues that could have caused him to become injured in the first place. There are occasions when birds become injured, like the little guy you are trying to help is, that there was illness before injury that caused their physical evasion reactions to be a little slow causing the injury.

So there are two things to start you could do, first, gently open his mouth and have a good look inside and down his throat as far as you can, use a flashlight if needed, is his mouth nice and pink to dark pink in color or are there any cheesy looking growths there? Second, if you could post a few photos of his droppings, make them as close-up, well lit, and clear as you can. Doing these two things, for now, will help us to make some initial determinations on a few things.

Also, a good, clear, close-up photo of the injured eye area, would be helpful.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't know what to tell you without either a better picture of the orb itself or a very good description of what's under the lids (the orb). 

If an infection goes inward, it can cause bilateral blindness, though. You'd usually see cloudiness within the bad eye first. If a flashlight shined into that eye looks just like the other side, you're probably okay, but if it's clouding up or there's a gaping hole, it's obviously not so good. Frankly, if there WERE an infection inside and yet the pupil was burst, it could easily be better because it wouldn't hold pressure and cause the infection to push back into the optic nerves (too short on birds for safety's sake) and cause the bilateral blindness or worse. 

Pidgey


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Update*

Started Pigeon on Ornacyn-Plus today (erythromycin broad spectrum antibiotic) two packets per one cup water. Some more pictures here don't know if there any better but getting digital camera tomorrow and will attach some pictures tomorrow night. Will look in the mouth for pink or cheese formations in the morning when i give him his metacam.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, somebody probably needs to get you some Doxycycline with Tylosin for that. "Conjunctivitis" is the medical term for the swelling of the tissue in question, namely that of the eyelids. There was an old term "one-eyed cold" that pigeon fanciers often gave to that one and they'd sometimes shoot some Nitrofurazone powder (NFZ Puffer--it's yellow) into the eye a few times. Conjunctivitis can have a few different causes, naturally, and we'd want the Doxycycline for the worst of the possibilities. The Tylosin helps against mycoplasmatales that do not themselves cause primary disease but often work in tandem with other diseases to make one sicker'n than normal.

Fortunately, the eye itself looks good.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla, I agree with Pidgey, the eye itself looks good, which is very good news.

I know you are doing the best you can, in terms of finding meds for your little one. The medicine you picked up Ornacyn-Plus (erythromycin), would not be a first choice drug for treating an eye infection of the type your bird may have. When we talk about bacteria, we talk about them in terms of whether they are sensitive (can be killed or growth stopped) by a given antibiotic, or not. The bacteria that may be causing this type of eye infection, most are not sensitive (they are resistant) to erythromycin, but a few still are, so we will keep him on the Ornacyn-Plus just in case. Do you think you could check back at the pet store you picked the med up from and see if they have Ornacycline (from the same company), I posted a link earlier in the thread for you: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=6094

This has tetracycline in it, and although not as effective as the Doxycycline Pidgey has suggested, would be better for our needs than the erythromycin, if they do not have it, see if they can do a RUSH order to get it in for you within a day.

Please keep up the colloidal silver in/around the eye for now and don't forget photos of his droppings.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I will have to check a different pet store today as they didn't have ornacyline only two pet stores left in town to check i will cross my fingers because the first two struck out.
I will keep up on the collidol silver, the dropping pictures will be avalible tonight. No cheese formations in his throught, nice and pink as far as i could tell/see. I shone a flashlight in his eye last night to take the first picture and didn't seem cloudy at all to me. Better pictures of the eye will be online tonight as well.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, the other link I posted earlier in the thread, http://www.pet-discount-supply.com/birds/marvel_aid_antibiotic-eid304.htm ,
would also be a better choice than the erythromycin, see if they have that as an alternative, if they have neither, see how quick they could get them in.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, I have located some tetracycline in your area:

Purple Seahorse Pet Supplies
590 Highway 33 W, Unit #3 Kelowna , BC
(250) 763-7300 

Speak to Mike, they have 2 packs of 500mg Tetracycline in stock (just need 1), they are open until 6:00PM, your time. When you get them I will help you make it into a suspension med to give your little guy. Pick up a couple of 1cc syringes from the drug store, the kind without a needle, or that has a removable needle, we'll need one, plus pick up bottle of distilled water, and a small jar of corn syrup (if you don't have any at home), if you can.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*reply*

ok well mike is the business owner, i talked to the girl yesterday and she said they were out of stock. I knew i should have went right to mike and ask ok thanks, will go out now and pick up the supplies. I have a sringe for the metacam but i will pick up anouther. Is it bird tetracyline or is it for fish cause i asked at total pet and he didn't have any but he had stuff for fish, I couldn't find anything anywhere they all said they are having a tough time with the supplier and getting the meds accross the border.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dahlilla, 


You can order just about any thing you need from Pigeon Supply places on the Internet, and have right Meds to your door in a day, or, two days.


This might be easier.


Phil
Lv


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Credit card would be essential for that kind of purchase, anyway i have all the supplies you requested Karyn. 25 dollars later lol i hope he gets better soon lol


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

btw he only had two boxes of 10 powder packets equaling 500 mg per packet i had to buy the whole box so guess im good for long time or expiry


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

whats the difference between distilled and sterile cause i got the sterile water does it matter?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, my fault a bit, because you were in a kind of remote location, it didn't occur to me to mention fish meds might be OK, as long as they were made up of the pure med. Anyway, sterile/distilled water, either is fine. I have to run out for a short while, but won't be too long, Will work out fine for his dosing, as they will be 12 hours apart, so we'll get him dosed for sure tonight. Good going.

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, first let's make up an antibiotic suspension using the Tetracycline you picked up to administer orally. First, take two of the packs of Tetracycline and dissolve it into 5cc of warm sterile/distilled water, which is equal to 1 teaspoon. It is important that we be exact with this measurement, so either draw up 5cc by syringe, use the 1cc syringe to draw up 1cc of water 5 times or use a cooking measuring spoon, which is exactly equal to 5cc/mL (do not use a common house flatware spoon for measuring, it won't be accurate). Stir or shake this in a small bottle until the Tetracycline completely dissolved into solution. 

Now measure out 5mL of the corn syrup, if you do not have cooking measuring spoons and are using the 1cc syringe do this. In a shot glass, or other suitable small glass, measure out 5cc of water (1cc x 5 = 5mL) using the syringe, make a mark on the side of the shot glass and now throw the water out and fill to this line with the corn syrup, we do this because the corn syrup is too thick to draw up into a 1cc syringe. Add the two together and shake well. This solution is now a 10% tetracycline suspension and we can use this to dose your little one at a recommended pigeon dose of 50mg/kg twice a day for tetracycline. 

If we go with an average of 330 grams for him, this means on a 1cc syringe you will shake the bottle well and draw up to the 0.17 line on the syringe and give this to him orally. Please be careful to not just shoot it into his mouth, this amount is equal to about 3 drops, so give it to him a drop at a time and let him tongue it down, until he is dosed. You will do this every 12 hours for the next 10 days, then we will reassess things. Shake well each time you use it and keep it in the refrigerator.

Cindy, I would also like to make up some anti-bacterial eye-drops for him, so you have a measuring cup around the house?

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

ok antibiotic susspension made and given. im ready to recieve directions on the eye drops. also this amount that i just made up is this suppose to last him the whole ten days then?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pigeon pics with digital camera*

better pictures of eye and droppings


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla said:


> ok antibiotic susspension made and given. im ready to recieve directions on the eye drops. also this amount that i just made up is this suppose to last him the whole ten days then?


Very nicely done, you may have a future in this LOL. The amount you made will, in a perfect world, with no waste, be enough for 28 days, so you have lots.

OK Cindy, lets make up a 0.50% Tetracycline solution to put directly around and into his eye. First get one more of the packs of Tetracycline and pour it out onto a new magazine cover, divide this equally in half and put one half back into the foil pack, set aside the other half for a short while. Into a small pot, stainless steel preferably, boil up a few cups of tap water, exactness is not important yet. After it is boiling take your measuring cup and into this pour a good amount of the boiling water, swish it around and then throw it out. Now pour into the cup exactly 500mL of distilled/sterile water and into this add the 1/2 pack of Tetracycline you had set aside, just before and stir into the water until completely dissolved. This is now a .050% Tetracycline solution you can use as an antibacterial eye drop. We need to place this solution in to a clean glass container for storage. To make this find a suitable container, clean it very well, when you are disinfecting the measuring cup, with the boiling water do the same to this jar as well. Now, pour the solution into this glass jar. 

Store this in the refrigerator. A few things when using this, do not dip into this jar, you'll have lots, so just pour a bit out into a clean shot glass and put the rest right away. Get a new syringe and draw up a few lines into the syringe, place a few drops of this into his eye, now get a Q-Tip and dip it into the shot glass, wet it well, and wipe this all around the eye area. Clean and rinse the syringe, when using it again, "burn" a little of the solution before using to rinse out the syringe. To do this draw a few lines into the syringe, shoot this out into the sink or garbage, then draw up some more fresh solution to now put into his eye, then wipe with the wet Q-Tip as described before. Do this as well twice a day.

You may discontinue the erythromycin and for now I guess the last bit of business is to post a few photos of his droppings, also if you have a kitchen scale around a weight on him would be nice to get. I am hoping this will now get him on the way to recovery and if you have any questions, please let us know. You really are doing a great job with this little guy.

His dropping looks quite good, by the way, which although not a perfect indicator of general health, is enough to show me, for now, some of the other things that were on my mind can fade a bit, we just need to get his eye fixed up right now.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Droppings*

Another one of his droppings i think the other one was a bit blury


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

oh thanks lol have to admit i had some help from my boyfriend Ron, he read out the directions and i followed lol. He has also let me keep the pigeon at his house so we can keep a better eye on him and it sure helps to give his meds with two people.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, it's always nice to have a helping hand, sounds like you have a very understanding boyfriend. Cindy, here's the deal, we currently have this little guy on "B" team antibiotics, which means that while not the very first choice in meds, I am hoping the bacteria he is infected with are sensitive to the Tetracycline and it will do the job we need it to do for him. Please keep a close eye on things for the next few days to make sure things continue to improve, any changes please be in touch.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok sounds good.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Day one on antibiotics*

Good guess on the 330 grams he is 300 grams we weighed him today on the kitchen scale.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, OK, thanks. Sometimes a 30gm change in weight might call for a slight change in the amount of meds being given. Because Tetracycline has a very large safe range, and I want to be make sure we have a good level of med in his blood stream, we won't make any adjustments to his meds.

Also, at 300 grams, this would be consider borderline malnourished and he was probably even lighter than that before you got him because in one of the photos you posted it showed him sitting in a decent amount of good looking food and I am sure he has already put on some weight in your care.

Two, things you could do to help him right now, one for weight and one for his general health. The first is you could pick up some raw, shelled sunflower seeds from the health food store and add a teaspoon a day of these into the feed you are giving him, these have a hight fat content and will help him get some weight back on him sooner. Second, while you are at the health food store, if you could pick up a small bottle of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar and into a liter of water I want you to put 1 teaspoon of the Bragg's and use this as his source of drinking water. This will help with a few things, the biggest being, when these guys are on antibiotics they can sometimes have their natural gut flora balance thrown off and yeast may start to exert a presence, the Bragg's will change the pH in his GI tract to an acidic state and this will reduce the chance of this happening to him, as we don't want to get him well of one thing only to have to deal with a yeast infection at the end of his treatment.

Additionally, so you know, at the end of his antibiotic treatment we are going to be giving him some probiotics to help build back up the good bacteria in his GI tract.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

ok Karyn i will pick up those things today. What form of probiotics are we talking about? pill, powder, liquid and can i get that at the health food store too or at a pet store? I have an appointment to see the doctor today to check out my wrist i think its just sprained but anyhow i will ask him to write me a perscription for one pill of cipro if he can. I had no luck at the pharmacy wanting to part with one stupid pill they all said you need a perscription so wish me luck on getting the Type A anitibiotics today or is it too late?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, no not too late for the Cipro at all and it would be given at the same time as the Tetracycline to act synergistically in combination, that would be great if you could wrangle a pill, sometimes doctors have samples, you could tell him any fluoroquinolone will do (Cipro if a member of this drug class).

With the probiotics, get a good quality human grade one, one that you would like to use yourself, as we will need very, very little and after you could use the rest of the bottle up. Just make sure they are capsules for easy dispensing when we need them.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*one pill 250 mg Ciprofloxacin*

He was nice enough to write me a perscription for one pill, so i have it here. Its the Cipro - 250 mg I forgot to take the list of other antibiotics for samples so i just filled the perscription for the one pill. Just going out right now to the natures fare to pick up the other supplies, it was really busy at the store today so i didn't have time to sneak away. There open till 8 so i will be back shortly after that.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, that was very kind of your doctor to do this for you.

The mixing instructions for the Cipro will be very similar to mixing up the first med, the Tetracycline, for your little guy.

I want you to evenly break the pill into two, wrap up one half in foil and and put it with the spare Tetracycline you have. With the other half, get the shot glass again and place the 1/2 Cipro pill into it. We need to crush this pill up into as fine a powder as we can, and I find a shot glass works well to do this in. Once the pill is in the shot glass, get something hard with a rounded end to crush the pill (Mortar and Pestle style), I use a small whisk I have that has a nice rounded end on it, look around the kitchen, I am sure you have something that will work well. When finished just make sure to check the end of what you are using to crush the pill, as sometimes some crushed, compressed pill powder wants to stick to the end, so make sure it is all scraped back into the shot glass.

Once the pill is crushed up very fine, we want to add 2cc of very warm water to it. Cipro will mix into water quite well, so when you are done you will have a milky looking solution. The next part you can do two ways, you can measure 3cc of water into another shot glass, make a mark on the outside at this 3cc level, throw out the water and fill to this 3cc line with the corn syrup you have. Or, you can use a cooking measuring teaspoon and put 3cc of water into it, make a little mark inside, throw the water out, now add the corn syrup to this 3cc mark. You just now need to add this syrup to the 2cc of milky Cipro solution and shake/stir well to form the final suspension.

You will give your little one 0.20cc (second line on a 1cc syringe) of this twice a day (every 12 hours, this is about four drops), it can be given at the same time as the Tetracycline med if you like, but use a different syringe. I think you know the deal by now, refrigerate the med between use and shake very well before drawing a dose.

With these two meds together we will be covering quite a good range of the bacteria that could possibly be infecting your little guy. Keep doing everything else you are doing we are just adding in the Cipro.


Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Day 5 of Tetracyline and Day 2 of Cipro*

Maybe its just me but it doesn't seem to be getting much better yet.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Is there somthing else i can give him to put on some weight cause he doesn't seem to be too interested in those sunflower seeds.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, there are few other things you could try with him, the first is peanuts, They have to be raw, human grade and do not give them to him whole, but but chop a whole one into 6 pieces or a half into three. You many need to go to a pet store for the other and that is safflower seeds, they are a medium sized whitish looking seed that they really seem to like. Don't know the availability in your area, but they like hemp seeds as well.

Do you think you could do me a favor, since you removed them do you think you could post up one of the earlier, clear, close-up photos of his eye to see how swollen it was and if you could take another current shot of his eye, same close-up detail, but it needs to be real clear, this would be good. Swelling looks much better, you can stop the eye drops and swabbing the eye with the Q-Tip, but keep up the oral antibiotics for now.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pictures*

I deleted some of the pictures i had on him cause there were so many, so these are the onese i have left.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*pictures*

more pictures


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pictures*

more pictures


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

That could be a possible canker lesion on the left upper eye. I have seen that before on another bird. Thought it was an injury turned out to be canker.

Ask Dobato if it could be a possibility.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

lwerden said:


> That could be a possible canker lesion on the left upper eye. I have seen that before on another bird. Thought it was an injury turned out to be canker.
> 
> Ask Dobato if it could be a possibility.



That's what it looks like to me too.


Here's a photo journal of a bird with sever canker involving the eye, beak and sinus area.

http://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/...g-recovery-from-severe-canker-t1798.htm#24434


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Looks like that eyelid is now split up there and you're seeing the color of the iris through. Birds' eyes aren't shaped as spherically as ours are, by the way. Anyhow, there'd need to be some more healing done and then the eyelid could be repaired although it looks a bit on the "fun" side. You'd normally do work like that under a general anaesthesia.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks guys for your responses and Cindy for the photos. I first took notice of it in the last photo Cindy posted and thought it may be an infection blister. Now that he has continued to responded to treatment, the swelling has further retreated and infection has abated, I received a PM from Phil to have a look at it as he thought the eyelid now can be seen to have been torn in the injury. I PMed Pidgey as well, and he concurs that the eyelid has been cut.

Phil said said that a few fine sutures would fix this and should be done soon before this sets up, Pidgey thought stitches as well. Cindy, your little guy needs about three stitches to fix this cut eyelid for it to function right in the future. What is the vet situation like where you are, doesn't really need to know about birds, just have steady hands and Pidgey would be able to help him with key points for general anesthesia for a bird, as the requirements for anesthesia are specialized and can be quite dangerous for them if not adhered to. Any avian vets in you area?

Cindy, I'm sorry for this news, as he really seems to be responding very well to treatment and now this treatment has reveled an unforeseen issue. Do you think you could try the Owl Rescue again, not so much for rehab help, as I think he is on the way to healing, but explain what has happened and his eye and if they can offer any assistance with regards to a few fine stitches or a sympathetic vet that may be of assistance?

Cindy, I just remembered I put up this list a few weeks ago for another person in your general area, it may be of some help, start with the women, ask if they have steady hands for very fine, delicate stitches:

http://www.parrotplace.ca/avian_vet.htm



Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good luck with this!


I am confident he will feel a lot better with that Lid being taken care of...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great idea taking the bird to a vet. It would be a great idea to have the vet check for
Trichomoniasis. Looks to me like the bird has canker up in the sinus area, pushing on the eye.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

lwerden said:


> *That could be a possible canker lesion on the left upper eye.*
> 
> I have seen that before on another bird. Thought it was an injury turned out to be canker.


I agree. It sure does look like a nasty case of canker.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Charis said:


> Great idea taking the bird to a vet. It would be a great idea to have the vet check for
> Trichomoniasis. Looks to me like the bird has canker up in the sinus area, pushing on the eye.


A trip to the Vet is in order for this bird. A professional approach and opinion would be the best route to go.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Guess it's time for an anatomy lesson...










As you can see, the portion of the avian eye that you normally see is much smaller in relationship to the actual orb than it is with us. It's not completely spherical, either. What you're seeing through the torn eyelid is the stepped portion of the orb.

Pidgey


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

The eye lid isn't torn just the scab on top of the eye is orange so it appears to be the iris but its not i really wish i could post a better picture.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that would be a heckuva' relief... You sure can't see a tear in the older photos. Oh, well, you don't have a "macro" setting on your camera? You'd see a flower symbol if you did. Those settings allow for pictures to be taken up close.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Dahlilla said:


> *The eye lid isn't torn* just the scab on top of the eye is orange so it appears to be the iris but its not i really wish i could post a better picture.


It sure didn't look torn to me.
Not sure why the suggestion of sutures was given.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, a few more good, clear closeup shots of the eye would be helpful. Take a bunch, this will increase the odds of a few being good.

Karyn


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Well, if the custodian of the bird doesn't see a tear, clearer pictures are indeed in order.

If it is definately not a tear and in view that it is stated that it is an orange scab, it is propably one of two things.

It is either remaining puss/abscess from the origial infection or it is a canker lesion.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

As I've alluded to many times before, flash pictures can be VERY deceptive. I blew that clearest one up several times and still can't tell for sure. Yes, as a picture, it can be interpreted either way. Yes, a tear like that can occur. If it's a scab, it will eventually fall off on its own and no harm done as long as the underlying infection is finally taken care of.

Pidgey


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*pictures.*

Here is a couple more pictures, back to the phone cam thou, had to give the digital camera back.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*More Pictures*

more pictures of orange scab on very top of eye lid. I assume where the orgin of the injury occured, seems pretty deep.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, I want you to start back the eye drops for him, but instead of swabbing the area with the Q-Tip after the drops, soak the Q-Tip and very lightly pat the area around the eye. Thanks for trying with the new photos, but the cell phone shots really just are not sharp enough to tell much, could you borrow the camera you had or perhaps even one with a macro setting for good, close-up shots?

Karyn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*So What Is It REALLY?*

People, please .. we have so many possibilities going on here that I have no idea how Dahlilla is keeping her sanity and still caring for the bird.

We've had:

1) It's a tear in the area (flesh) surrounding the eye
2) It's canker
3) It's a scab ..

heck let's add 

4) It's a pox lesion

Guess that about covers the gamut, and there is still no clear determination of what the problem is thus no clear determination of what should be done to help the situation.

Yes, really clear close up pictures would be helpful, but I don't think those are going to be had, so we need to quit jerking the caretaker and the bird around and _come to some conclusion of what is the best course of action here._

Yes, a trip to a qualified vet would be a top choice of action. I don't know if that's possible or not. If not then:

1) If it's a tear, then yes, it needs to be stitched by either a vet capable of putting in a stitch or two or a trained rehabber.

2) If it's canker, then canker meds need to be given ASAP. So everybody that posted that it is or could be canker, you should also be advising what drugs, how much, and where to get them.

3) If it's a scab then yes, it's gonna fall off and hopefully all will have healed well underneath the scab.

4) I just threw in pox to be a PITA. If it's pox then it will self resolve with good supportive care and gentle dabbing with a drying agent. (NO, I don't think it's pox .. just want to state that so we don't start another thing here).

The POINT here, folks, is that we have got another of our "going in circles" things happening here and it's not helping the caretaker or the bird. 

My personal take on it is this:

It's a scab and let it self resolve. The antibiotics and eye drops are fine as a treatment. Add a canker treatment just in case. 

All are welcome to comment on my recommendation. I am not all knowing and all seeing. Let's just QUIT with all the running in circles and agree on a treatment plan for this bird.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

AZWhitefeather said:


> It sure didn't look torn to me.
> Not sure why the suggestion of sutures was given.


Because it appeared in a couple of the pictures that the area above the eye was torn. If that were the case, then a stitch or two would be needed to correct the problem. Nobody is or was suggesting that the caretaker do the stitching.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

AZWhitefeather said:


> It sure didn't look torn to me.
> *Not sure why the suggestion of sutures was given.*





TAWhatley said:


> * Because it appeared in a couple of the pictures that the area above the eye was torn. If that were the case, then a stitch or two would be needed to correct the problem.*
> 
> Terry


The pictures I saw, I didn't notice a tear. 
Since *I* didn't see any tear I _was_ confused with the mention of sutures.




TAWhatley said:


> * Nobody is or was suggesting that the caretaker do the stitching.*
> 
> Terry


I didn't notice any reference made that _someone_ suggested Dahilla do any stitching. 
But then I could have missed that as well. 




TAWhatley said:


> People, please .. *we have so many possibilities going on here that I have no idea how Dahlilla is keeping her sanity and still caring for the bird.*
> Terry


In general, it certainly can be very confusing to the caregiver when a barrage of 'possibilities' are presented. 
However that's pretty much a given when:
1) The situation at hand is not an absolute given (e.g. A severe case of canker).
2) There are many 'advisors'. None of which actually have the bird in hand.
Being this is an open board there _is_ going to be a variety of 'possibilities' suggested, as things are seen differently from all perspectives. 
3) Suggestions/advise given to the caregiver is unnecessarily complex.


Dahilla,
I wish both you and your little rescue the best.
Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

oh no worries i knew myself it wasn't a tear, i look at the eye in detail every morning and night when i give him the shots and the eye drops its just do to the very bad pictures ive been posting, i understand that people just want to help, and i apprechiate every bit of it. Not sure what a canker is though but thought i would give a little more detail on what appears to be a scab. its in the top right of his eye socket, not really the eye lid itself. I first discovered it a couple days ago when i was swabbing the eye area. The bottom of the scab was lifting so that i could see a little under it. it appears to be very deep. the left corner of the scab is lifting today but i am careful not to disturb it much as i want it to fall of on its own time incase its not just healed yet underneath. The eye swelling is going down nicely he has a lot more eye showing. Won't know anything definite untill the scab or what appears to be a scab falls off. Right now the poor bird has been thru so many different applications to metacam, to collidol silver, to saline solution, to ornacyn, to tetracycline, to cipro, introducing the apple cider vinigar water, to raw sunflower seeds to plump him up, to my shop, to the house, to different cages, to snaping a million pictures, he has really been thru alot and i don't mind at all but maybe we should just let things be for a bit and wait and see, unless you really think adding anouther medication for canker is nessisary i wouldn't just mind just giving it a few days, he really hates the taste of that tetracycline he coughs and spits and shakes his head lol not funny but its all i can do just to give him the meds im giving him now. Thanks, Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If the bird does have canker, it looks like it is a very severe case. Giving it a few days would give the canker time to get even worse. Given that most pigeons have the parasite in their system and stress can bring on a full episode of canker and given that being captive and ill is stressful....*personally*, I would treat for canker.
Are any of those vets, in the list Doabto posted, near by?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok, thanks Charis, I will phone Tri lake animal hospital this morning apparently Dr. Linda Kaplan is one of the best in exotic bird care around here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, you have been doing just great with this little guy.

Canker is a common term used in the birding world to describe an infection by a single cell flagellate protozoan parasite, Trichomonas gallinae. The correct medical term for this infection is trichomoniasis. It most times is found in the mouth and throat area of an infected bird, although it can occur in areas it can not be observed, it most times presents as nodules of yellowish/whitish, cheesy growths. If you remember, earlier in the thread, I asked you to check his mouth and throat area, using a flashlight if you had, to make sure it was pink and clear with no growths, you reported that it was pink and clear with no growths. This infection is easily treated, if caught early enough, with a common medication called Metronidazole (trade name Flagyl) or other members of the Nitroimidazole family of drugs .

The scab you describe had some of us taking this scab as a cut, while others were taking the yellowish appearance of the scab to raise the possibility that there could be a canker infection involved. Right now, I personally don't feel your guy has canker. Birds don't make puss like we do, their "puss" is seen as spent leucocytes, which has a firm, yellowinsh/chessy appearance, similar to canker in a way (as a result of them both being spent leucocyte inflamatorry debris), this yellowish debris is the result of infection not infection in itself. The scab's and area's yellow color set off some warning flags, that to be on the safe side, a visit to a vet will clear up and is worth while doing, for a number of reasons, sounds like you have a good one lined up and it would be good to have a vet involved. If you have the capability, it would be good to print the progression of the injury for the vet to see, as it's always good to give them as full a picture (pardon the pun) of things as possible.

At this point I think you can discontinue the Metacam, continue with the eye drops/patting and oral meds and ACV in the water, these should be simple and straight forward for you to do, and you're right not to disturb the scab, when it's ready, it will fall off on its own. Try him on some off the high calorie treats I suggested and let him rest up a bit.


Karyn


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> That's what it looks like to me too.
> 
> 
> Here's a photo journal of a bird with sever canker involving the eye, beak and sinus area.
> ...





Dahlilla said:


> oh no worries i knew myself it wasn't a tear, i look at the eye in detail every morning and night when i give him the shots and the eye drops its just do to the very bad pictures ive been posting, i understand that people just want to help, and i apprechiate every bit of it. *Not sure what a canker is* though but thought i would give a little more detail on what appears to be a scab. its in the top right of his eye socket, not really the eye lid itself. I first discovered it a couple days ago when i was swabbing the eye area. The bottom of the scab was lifting so that i could see a little under it. it appears to be very deep. the left corner of the scab is lifting today but i am careful not to disturb it much as i want it to fall of on its own time incase its not just healed yet underneath. The eye swelling is going down nicely he has a lot more eye showing. Won't know anything definite untill the scab or what appears to be a scab falls off.
> *Right now the poor bird has been thru so many different applications* to metacam, to collidol silver, to saline solution, to ornacyn, to tetracycline, to cipro, introducing the apple cider vinigar water, to raw sunflower seeds to plump him up, to my shop, to the house, to different cages, to snaping a million pictures, he has really been thru alot and i don't mind at all but maybe we should just let things be for a bit and wait and see, unless you really think adding anouther medication for canker is nessisary i wouldn't just mind just giving it a few days, he really hates the taste of that tetracycline he coughs and spits and shakes his head lol not funny but its all i can do just to give him the meds im giving him now. Thanks, Cindy


If you haven't had a chance to check out the link Charis has provided, please do so when time permits. The pictures show just how horrific canker can be and how well a pigeon responds when treated. 

Canker can invade all parts of the body. It can destroy beaks, tongues, nasal passages, eyes, etc., if not treated. I treat with *Spartrix*, giving 1 tablet daily for 3-5 days, depending on the severity of the canker. 

Yes indeed, your little rescue sure has been through a lot. Bless his heart.
Treating him for canker is certainly worth doing though. 
In the event canker isn't the problem, treating him won't harm him, rather it would work as a preventative. It's a win, win situation, IMO.

Cindy


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Dahlilla said:


> Ok, thanks Charis, I will phone Tri lake animal hospital this morning apparently Dr. Linda Kaplan is one of the best in exotic bird care around here.


Hello there, Dahlilla!

I just spotted your thread and thought I should chime in since I'm a fellow BC resident.  

I don't have much to offer as far as medical advice, unfortunately, but I just wanted to offer my moral support, for what it's worth!  The pigeon is lucky to have found you, because you've been really awesome providing for the little guy/gal's needs.

Were you able to speak with the vet today? Any progress with the sweet pigeon? I expect Dr. Kaplan will prescribe the correct meds, but just in case: if you happen to need Spartrix I can mail some to you.

Hope things are going well today.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I did indeed talk to Dr. Kaplan sure the medical care is free because its a wild bird, but they also can't give the bird back to me for future care because it is wild they have to call someone to pick up the bird....Ive put in so much to this bird and sure if its necissary to hand him over for the best care and proper medicine i will but i would really like to see the care of this bird to the end. Dobato doesn't think is canker though so I don't know if i should get you to mail me the meds or not. She has given me the most help through all of this so if she says to then yes.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dahlilla .. you are terrific! Thank you for the care you are giving this bird, and please forgive our continued going in circles here. There are several here who feel there is canker present, so please treat for that if you can. I see that the meds have been offered, so take them and give them. The canker meds won't hurt the bird, and if it does have canker, then they are necessary.

You've done extremely well with this bird thus far, and I wish you continued good success. 

Please do keep us posted on how you and the bird are doing, and thank you for understanding how "stuff" happens on forums such as ours. I know everyone here has the best interests of the bird in their minds and hearts, but it sometimes takes a real toll on both the caretaker and the bird. Hang in there!

Terry


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, I wanted to explain more clearly to you my reasons for not thinking this is canker around his eye. From my prospective to get canker in the eye area there would be a progression of events leading to canker in this area. The canker would start in the mouth/throat area, from there it would migrate up into the choanal slit (a slit in the roof of a bird's mouth that leads to their nasal area, once in the nasal area it would push its way up into the orbital area (the area around the eye). By the way, there is another small slit in the choanal slit area that leads to the ear area of birds, so this is how canker can migrate to the ear area as well. Since you reported the mouth area was clear and pink, it seemed doubtful to me that canker would just crop up in isolation in the area above the eye. Also, we know your little one had suffered trauma there, so inflammatory debris from the infection caused from this injury seemed much more likely to be the cause of what was being observed. Lastly, with the antibiotics he is on, one, the tetracycline, was covering for bacteria that are common in eye infections in birds, we added in the the eye drops because sometimes delicate tissue, like the eyelid, does not have a great amount of blood flowing to it to just rely on systemic antibiotics to treat an infection there, so we went topical as well. The other Cipro, would cover for other bacteria that may cause eye infection, as well as it is very good at clearing up soft tissue infections, so the eye, if you follow the progression of photos, seemed well on the way to healing, especially after the Cipro was added.

With all that being said, I agree, it would be wise, since an offer was made for help with medicine to treat canker, that we go ahead and do just that. The medicine, is safe, easy to administer and with a wild bird a prudent thing to do under the circumstances. Alienbaby, this was a very kind thing to offer to do, perhaps you can PM Cindy for her info and try and get the meds off for her today.

Cindy, I am here to support you in whatever you want to do, I do think he is well on the way to healing and if you want to see it through to the end, I am happy to help you with this. I think a reasonable plan for you would be, if it's in your heart to continue, to do so, knowing that you have made contact with a vet who will take this little guy over if there are unforeseen reasons this should become necessary at any point. However, I think I should be clear about what the real risk is when turning a wild bird over. When you turn a wild bird over and it is deemed that the bird in question is too flawed to ever be returned to the wild, the bird, in all likelihood, will be PTS (put-to-sleep/aka/humanly euthanized) for this reason. Now this/these flaws could sometimes be minor, where the same bird could lead a full life in someone's care, it could be something as simple as hampered flying ability or in your case the eye deemed not to have returned to full capacity to see out of it. I will put one other backup plan on your mind, if it should ever become necessary for a vet to be involved and you did not want to run the risk of your little guy being PTS, this may not now work with Dr. Kaplan (but you could ask). That is to say the bird is your pet and stick to that story, many vets, once you make this statement, will just accept it at face value (although they may think something different) and treat the bird as long as they are paid their regular fees.

You have some things to ponder, the eye drops can be stopped today, PM Alienbaby your mailing info so she can get the meds out. Two, last things I would like you to do, one, is get a small brush, a clean old make-up brush will do, and carefully "paint" a bit of Neosporin on the scab area twice a day, I want to make sure that this little area is kept moist for faster healing and I am hoping to reduce hard scaring as well. Lastly, when you get a chance some good, clear, close-up photos would be helpful to us all.

Karyn


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I haven't been able to check in until now, but Dahlilla PMed me and I'll get the meds mailed first thing in the morning. Hopefully the pigeon gets better!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's wonderful. Thank you.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks Alienbaby.


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Oh, no problem! I'm just happy to help and crossing my fingers for a full recovery. Thank you to Dahlilla for taking the time to care for the sweet pigeon!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Like chicken soup....treating for canker with Metronidazole or Ronidazol...certainly *can't hurt*...as long as the drug interactions are OK with any other meds being given.

I tend to lean towards it being a lesion, myself....so I think time and covering for canker is the way to go.

Dahilla...is she/he using the eye now (i.e. do you see it moving around and tracking things within its range ?)

Dobato stated it very well - when turning an injured pigeon over to a vet or rehabber who explicitly has stated you will NOT get it back...there is always the VERY REAL risk that that individual may deem the pigeon unreleasable and kill it. The issue is the definition of releasable/unreleasable...and typically, wildcare/rescue facilities/organizations tend to use an overly-stringent yardstick there.... which results in very viable birds being put down. So it should well give you pause....

If you can get the pigeon to continue to improve, I would suggest you keep being her/his caregiver yourself. Then when (and if) the time comes for re-release, you can take the necessary re-acclimatization steps for him/her to return to the feral world (if it is deemed that's a good course to take). And if ultimately determined that the extent of healing still leaves your pal in a compromised state...then one can take the necessary steps to find an alternative and safe home....

Keep up the good work.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Day 10 of tetracycline today yeah, i hope he doesn't need anymore doses of that stuff. Day 7 of Cipro and only have one more dose to give him tonight, should i make up some more Cipro Karyn? Noticed a injury to the back of the head a few days ago its a big scab about the size of a dime, didn't notice it before because his feathers were covering it, but now it shows as i was giving him a cotton ball bath so ive been putting some neosporin on it as well.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2010)

wow that is a remarkable canker recovery ,i had a bird that had canker once and it kind of left her head looking a little off but she is perfect in every other reguard so if this is still festering in any way I would still use some sort of canker treatment to resolve what ever is residing on top of what ever
other antibiotic you are treatingt it with right now


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, here's the thing with your little guy, because we have no lab work to rely on, and even then, sometimes when lab work is done it does not necessarily lead to a firm diagnosis, we have to make some informed suppositions. The first thing is I was never happy with the weight you first reported your guy was at, 300 grams, now perhaps he had been hurt for a few days and was suffering privations and lost weight as a result, or perhaps he was sick first, which lead to him being hurt from being in poor condition, but as I mentioned this did raise an eyebrow for me.

So, in these circumstances I think it would be wise to err on the side of caution and presume he may have been sick first and to treat for a few things that could have caused his sickness, which actually we have been doing while treating his eye injury/infection. The Cipro he is on is not only very good at treating soft tissue infections, it's a drug of choice for treating/clearing an infection that some pigeons get caused by salmonella bacteria. The recommended treatment course for this infection is 10-14 days, although we are not even sure he has this, if we treat him for 5 more days on the Cipro we can then feel we have completed the full course of treatment for this, so I think we should go ahead and do this, treat him for 5 more days with the Cipro.

Next, with the tetracycline, we can reduce the dose to once a day now, the two bacteria that were on my mind that might have been infecting his eye where chlamydia or mycoplasma. These are a little less likely in my mind, but we should continue treatment with the tetracycline for now, the treatment course though is considerably longer, 4-6 weeks. 

Finally, with the canker that has been mentioned, as I said before, I don't think it is canker he has at the eye area, but with a feral pigeon, there is always a chance canker could be present further down were it could be unseen, so although you reported the mouth area was pink and clear, we can cross this off out list when you get the meds Alienbaby sent you, the course of treatment is quite short for this.

The two other considerations that come to mind are helminths (intestinal worm infection) and coccidiosis (a parasite that also infects the intestinal tract). These two infections are easily diagnosed through a test called a fecal float. This is where a vet takes droppings from the bird in question, does a separation procedure to the droppings and then examines the results under a microscope. Sounds complicated, it's not really, and costs about $30.00. The vet that you mentioned earlier in the thread, that you took the cat to, could do this for you, as the methods and infections are the same in cats and dogs as well, so it's not necessary to have to go to an avian specialist to have the test done. They may tell you they need to have the patient come in, this is not true, all they need is some fresh droppings, but if an infection was diagnosed, they would need to see the patient before being able to prescribe any meds, somebody should be able to do a fecal for you by you just bringing them some new droppings.

Sounds like he got banged up pretty good about the head, the Neosporin is the right thing to apply to the head wound. The scab will soften, then fall off, and he should re-feather in the hurt area, in time, with no problem.

How's his weight doing? The clear, close-up shots of the eye area would be good when you get a chance, as they really have to act as our "eyes" on the ground, so we do need to see the area, from time to time, as we go along, plus a few new shots of his droppings would be good as well.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Im not sure if hlminths or coccidiosis is a round, flat, pin worm but i seen here in anouther post about worming that Strongid t was used, I can get that here at a pet store and deworm myself anyway.(strongid) (using 50mg/ml strength) is .13 ml per bird.
Ive had past experince working with a dog breeder in using strongid t and worming puppies. I really don't have the 30 dollars to find out if he does or doesn't have worms and i certainly don't have the money to treat him at the vet if he did require that. Perhaps his care is getting a little to extensive for my tiny budget. Why does there have to be underlying issues involved like worms or canker can't it just be as simple as he flew into somthing and just got banged around. Anyways i will weigh him tomorrow and see if he is putting on any weight, that should determin if he has worms too right?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Dahlilla said:


> Im not sure if hlminths or coccidiosis is a round, flat, pin worm but i seen here in anouther post about worming that Strongid t was used, I can get that here at a pet store and deworm myself anyway.(strongid) (using 50mg/ml strength) is .13 ml per bird.
> Ive had past experince working with a dog breeder in using strongid t and worming puppies. I really don't have the 30 dollars to find out if he does or doesn't have worms and i certainly don't have the money to treat him at the vet if he did require that. Perhaps his care is getting a little to extensive for my tiny budget.
> 
> *Why does there have to be underlying issues involved like worms or canker can't it just be as simple as he flew into somthing and just got banged around.*
> ...


As a general rule, pigeons are great flyer's. For one to be crashing into things indicates something is amiss. And it's usually due to some kind of underlying illness that caused the bird to become weak, disorientated, etc., thereby not being able to navigate properly.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla said:


> Why does there have to be underlying issues involved like worms or canker can't it just be as simple as he flew into something and just got banged around. Anyways i will weigh him tomorrow and see if he is putting on any weight, that should determine if he has worms too right?


Cindy, you get to part of the point I was making in my last post. It could be just as simple as that, he just flew into something and got banged around. A cut got infected, we treat the infection, he recovers, is released, end of story. However, because we don't know this to be the case, with certainty, and because of his initially having a weight that I would consider to be in a range outside of "normal", we are just being cautious. There are a few fairly common ills that can get in the wild, that can cause sickness, hence loss of condition. So, we are simply acknowledging what these ills are, and because treatment for them if safe and effective, doing some treatments to err on the side of caution I was talking about, to eliminate them as possibilities, so he is not just released "healed", but is also not still potentially "sick".

The active drug in the The Strongid you mention is pyrantel pamoate, this is actually the wormer I have been favoring lately, both for its effectiveness and safety. The dose you stated is a correct dose (very good!), you will give him one dose, and then in 10-14 days a second dose.

When a vet is not really an option, and this could be for any number of reasons, it just means we have to be a little broader sometimes in our treatment, so we don't miss anything, I know it's a bit of a pain, but it does greatly increase our chances of potentially "curing" him of what may be wrong. I say potentially, because we have come full circle, he may very well not have any other issue than with the eye injury, but since we truly don't know, we are just being as safe as we can for him.

Karyn


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2010)

any bird that has some kind of growth around the head especially the sinus areas to me would indicate this bird was suffering from canker or some form of it and should be treated for it ..looking at the pictures and seeing that growth above the eyes surely doesnt suggest worms to me or cocci... canker comes in many shapes and forms and you would be foolish not to treat for it with an anti fungal to cover your bases but thats just my 4 cents on the subject .


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> any bird that has some kind of growth around the head especially the sinus areas to me would indicate this bird was suffering from canker or some form of it and should be treated for it ..looking at the pictures and seeing that growth above the eyes surely doesnt suggest worms to me or cocci... canker comes in many shapes and forms and you would be foolish not to treat for it with an anti fungal to cover your bases but thats just my 4 cents on the subject .


I'm a bit confused by what you wrote because Dahlilla mentioned that she will be treating the bird for canker as soon as the Spartrix arrives in the mail on Monday or Tuesday... 

Or were you suggesting the bird needs an additional remedy besides the Spartrix?


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2010)

alienbaby said:


> I'm a bit confused by what you wrote because Dahlilla mentioned that she will be treating the bird for canker as soon as the Spartrix arrives in the mail on Monday or Tuesday...
> 
> Or were you suggesting the bird needs an additional remedy besides the Spartrix?


because some are trying to say that this might be an eye injury and not canker


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

LokotaLoft said:


> because some are trying to say that this might be an eye injury and not canker


oh, okay! Thanks for clearing that up.  

Well, I guess we'll have to have to wait and see how the pigeon responds after treatment with the canker meds. 

*crossing fingers for a speedy recovery*


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Update*

Waiting for Sparnix (monday - tuesday)
Tetracycline day 12 and down to once a day now
made new Cipro (day 9) twice a day
neosporin on injury to back of head
neosporin painted on eye 2-3 times daily
Strongid t given yesterday repeat in 10-14 days
Vitamin/Vinegar water
Treats to gain weight, sunflower raw, peanuts broken raw, hemp seeds
Weight still at 300
Will upload pictures later today

Cindy


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pictures*

Pictures of eye and droppings


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pictures*

Pictures of eye and droppings.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, can we get past the idea of it being canker now?

Yep, that's going to require some kind of repair.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pidgey said:


> *Okay, can we get past the idea of it being canker now?*
> 
> Yep, that's going to require some kind of repair.
> 
> Pidgey


Still looks like canker to me. 
I don't understand why you are so adamant about the possibility of canker not being an issue.

Let's at least give Cindy a chance to administer the Spartrix before canker is ruled out.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*More Pictures*

pictures of eye and scab on back of head.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate the updated photos, Cindy. 

I certainly don't disupte there may be injuries. 
With that said, I also feel it's premature to rule out, or having it suggested that canker be rule out, as at least one issue. Especially since you haven't even been able to administer the Spartrix yet.

Another thought is that none of us has any idea of what might be going on internally with this bird. 

You are doing an awesome job. 
Please keep us posted.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, the photos were quite helpful, thanks so much.

I think you can stop the tetracycline altogether now, the clearer photos have made it now possible to see that that the bacteria I thought may be effecting the eye are are most likely not involved. You did well getting the Cipro, as I think it has been very effective at resolving any infection issues with the eye and general area.

Thanks as well for the photos of the scalp injury, these injuries are usually worse looking than they actually are and happen with some frequency with pigeons. This kind of "scalping", as it's commonly termed in the pigeon world, most times is inflicted by another pigeon, where it will corner a smaller, weaker bird and peck at its head. They almost always heal very well and will fill in with feathers so you will not be able to see that this happened in the future.

The dropping looks decent, good white urates and not badly formed, I have a few small issues with it, but they could be attributable to the drugs he is on, so we will get updated dropping photos as we go along. Please report if you see any worms come out in his droppings, they will look like small, opaque pieces of string mixed in with them.

Keep doing the rest right now and let us know when the Spartrix arrives. As I said before, I don't think canker is an issue with his eye, but treating him as a precaution for anything that can't be observed would be prudent.

So we have to start to figure out a plan to get his eye back in proper shape. Earlier, I explained to you if the dangers of PTS in turning him over. I am going to have to put you to work trying to source some help where PTS is really not an option for a non-life threating or non-incapacitating injury. Please start with the Owl Rescue, be persistent, if they can't help they may know of someone who can, let them know you do not need rehab help, as you're good with care and support, as much as a recommendation for a vet who may help injured birds at little, or no cost, who you do not have to turn the bird over to. I am going to print the photo and show it to a few people, including my vet, to get some more opinions. Nothing needs done immediately, so we have a bit of time, let's see what we can come up with.

Karyn


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks for the update & photos, Cindy. I think you're doing an awesome job with him! Poor little guy. Those injuries look painful in the close-up. But he (or she) really seems like a fighter which is good news. 



Dobato said:


> <snip>
> So we have to start to figure out a plan to get his eye back in proper shape. Earlier, I explained to you if the dangers of PTS in turning him over. I am going to have to put you to work trying to source some help where PTS is really not an option for a none life threating or incapacitating injury. Please start with the Owl Rescue, be persistent, if they can't help they may know of someone who can, let them know you do not need rehab help, as you're good with care and support, as much as a recommendation for a vet who may help injured birds at little, or no, cost, who you do not have to turn the bird over to.
> Karyn


If the Owl Rescue contact doesn't work out, I think there's another avian vet on the Parrot Place link that you posted, Karyn. _"Westbank Animal Care Hospital. Dr. Darcy Rae"_ Perhaps this vet will be able to offer assistance if Cindy needs it?

Otherwise, it's great that you might be able to show photos to your own vet to get an opinion. Wish there were more pigeon-friendly vets like that one!


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Well I sent an email off to the owl rescue place in Oliver, no reply yet. Phoned a few vets that take birds (when i called anouther vet he refered me to tri lake, theres not many vets around here that deal with birds)tri lake and the westbank vet both will return bird to wildlife if not p.t.s. $64 dollars just for initial exam on bird at westbank and $59 at tri lake for inital exam (if i tell them that its my pet) Im really hoping owl rescue can help or knows of someone who can help. Spartrix arrived today so guess once i get the instructions on how to give them i can start that tonight. There is a racing pigeon club here in kelowna, i can call the president of the club today he is just down the road from my shop, perhaps he might have an idea of what to do. I just can't afford the $59-$64 dollars....just to get him looked at. Did you have any luck Karyn with what your vet thinks he might have? Well i will be online tonight around 6 BC time.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it might be possible to "Vetbond" the eyelid together such that it would heal. That would essentially require that all that gooey stuff be cleaned off and the skin allowed to dry out. Some feathers might need to come off of the area directly above the eyelid. You wouldn't put the Vetbond on the soft, wet tissues that are exposed--just the outer actual skin on both sides of the wound and then you'd press them together. The actual cut would sort of pucker inward a little bit. Vetbond is a type of superglue, but it's made to use on skin. It probably wouldn't take but a few days of being draw together for the edges to heal back--they can do that on pigeons unbelievably fast. It's not difficult work--just delicate and a bit tedious. We'd have to get you some Vetbond, though. Real Superglue was originally tested to be used in the battlefield to seal up basic cuts and smaller wounds, but the formula kinda' irritated the skin. Later medical superglues were created that didn't do that so much. I have actually used non-medical superglue on what would have been a 5 to 7 suture on my own forearm back in the early '90s and it worked fine although it itched a bit (it was summer).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

However, there might be another way out of this: simply doing nothing.

I know... it looks bad. Some wounds on birds have an almost amazing power to eventually heal themselves without filling in with scar tissue. Scar tissue essentially forms around the perimeter of the wound and then slowly "tractors" closed. While this is kind of a tough spot, it might eventually happen due to the fact that there's no actual underlying connective fascia to prevent the tractoring process.

For those of you who look at the bird and always see "IT'S IN PAIN!!!", just let it go--you're probably in a lot more pain looking at the bird that it actually is. What the bird's probably having more trouble with at the moment is the functioning of the nictating membrane on that side and the eyelid. Well... that's probably more of a slight irritation than it is a true problem at this point. 

Dahlilla, why don't you just go ahead and try to measure the length of the wound every day and write it down (a tracking record) to see if he's gaining. It might be one of those deals where "a watched pot never boils".

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, the vet that I really want to look at the photo is away until Thursday, I did have another vet look at it though. It was first stipulated without seeing the bird in person it's hard to be exact, but the opinion given was just about matched what Pidgey has said so far, it was that he will most likely need a few stitches to close it up. It will not be just as simple as stitching it up right now in its current state, but a bit of surgical clean up would need to be done so that the stitches would "take". It was also stated there is a chance it just might start to close on its own, and there would be no harm in giving it a week to 10 days to see if this happens, as time is not a real factor right now in the sense that what needs to be done by a vet, if required, will not change much from today and a week from now. I will get a more input I hope on Thursday, so let's do as Pidgey says and keep a good eye on it and "track it" to see if there is any discernible coming together of the tear.

With the Spartrix, (thanks again Alienbaby), you will "pop" one pill today, this is how you will "pop" the pill, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow, (thanks Feefo) it's a pea in the video being popped, but you will do the same for the pill (how many pills do you have?). People, I am familiar with Spartrix as a med, but have not used it myself. How many days would it be appropriate to give this med for, since we are using it as a precautionary treatment and not for an active canker infection that is noticeable?

Cindy, I was asked by another person, and this was also mentioned by the vet, if it would be possible to get a few more photos, just like the prior close-up, but dry, without any dressing on it (as the dressing hides detail) and a shot from an above angle as well. Do you think you could use some warm water and Kleenex to gently clean up the eye area, please be very, very careful not to rub or pull on the tear in any way, but to gently kinda' pat/lift, pat/lift a bit, then reapply the Neosporin after you take the new shots.

As I said before, the bird is in no immediate danger, so if takes a bit of time to get things together for him, he will be alright.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

well thats a lot of information, i will do what ever you think, wish i had the money to spend on him for the vet...i know there is a big chance if we do leave it and hope for the best that his eye might stay the same and he won't be able to be released which really weighs heavy on my heart i wan't to give him the best....but im not a wealthy person just struggling to make ends meet i know i keep bringing this up but i want you to know that i am the biggest animal lover out there and if it wasn't for my money troubles i would so totaly spend what ever it takes just for him to be able to be strong, happy and free again. I have 11 pills of spartrix. I have looked at the video thanks for that i would have had no idea of how to do that. I usually apply his eye stuff at 7:45am and 7:45 pm same time everyday, and do his cage clean up and water change so i have about an hour before im going to give him his first dose. Will get some pictures at that time too, no sure how im going to measure the gash....perhaps i will make a trip to the dollar store and pick up a soft sewing measuring tape unless someone has a better idea.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

P.S I have started a piggey journal for him since the day i got him, so it won't be any problem keeping track of the measurments.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Pictures of eye June 22


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Cindy,
If one of the vets that you contacted is willing to see this bird as your 'pet' I was thinking it would be a nice gesture to start a fund to help you with the medical costs. 

This has been done in the past for other members and we would like to help you as well. 

For those who are able to make a small donation, Charis has offered her pay pal account. [email protected]. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dahlilla, 


Your Thread has been handled so well I hate to intrude in any way at all.


But...to indulge my interest -

Would you post some images also, showing the possibly injured area just to the rear of the Eye? And, of the Back of the Head? Ones with no 'goop' going on...

You could just leave off on applying any goop for a couple days. Since probably more images will be asked for. It will be fine.

It looks as if there is maybe a continuous wound from above the Eye, going on back...

You can take some Cuticle Scissors and trim away feathers one at a time if need be...just trim them close to the skin so as not to nick the skin...this would allow a better view of the other injured areas.

Now that we can see this with the 'goop' not distorting things so much, this looks like an old, previously infected, slowly resolving, deep wound which retains old inflamitory debris, which may in fact not involve the Eye Lid as such at all, but, appears to be above the Eye Lid proper...

Being able to see more and better images of the area to the rear of the Eye, and, the area on the back of the Head, would be good for those interested here in helping you with this...

She is such a sweet little Pigeon...and I know you both will be happy to see this saga evolve onto a happy conclusion..for which, more no goop images!!!


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, this was a very kind offer other members have made to start a fund for your little one if needed, my thanks to them.

Cindy, you did just great with the photos, to me, and I will wait for Pidgey and Phil to weigh in more on this, but the eyelid looks to be intact, not torn. To me Phil is right, it looks like a deep cut above the eye filled with inflammatory debris, in the 2nd photo it looks like this debris is what is putting pressure on the area just above the eye and stopping the eyelid from fully opening. These photos really helped a LOT, please try and get up the other photos Phil asked for, and hold off on the Neosporin for a bit until things are reassessed.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you so much to everyone for caring so much for my rescue pigeon. It is extremely 
generous of you to want to set up a pay pal account Cheris, thanks to AZ white feather for thinking of a way to help my special guy out. We apprechiate it very much and thank you from the bottom of our hearts. I tryed the best i could to clear some of his feathers away from his eye, and take off the gunk, will make sure to lay off it till karyn and others have come up with there plan of attack. I will take some more of the back of his head in the morning and some of the right of his eye...not sure what you mean here but i will figure it out.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*last pic tonight will try some more in the morning*

eye picture with some hair and gunk removed


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...to the right of her Eye...meaning, in the images shown above, there appears to be further wound condition...close to the Eye, but, between the Eye and the back of their Head.

If you can, get some fine, thin short Blade, Cuticle Scissors, and, carefully trim away obscuring Feathers which prevent being able to see whatever old wounds are present on the side of, and on the rear of their Head. Trim them close to the skin, one at a time, so whatever wound conditions are there, can be seen well.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, what it will tend to do is like any small cut or scrape that any of us get: it'll fill with inflammatory debris and scab over. You wouldn't really need to pick at it because he will. And in time it'll all fill back in more than likely. I'd say go ahead and stop putting any ointment on it and let it just go for awhile. Look at it this way... he already has the use of the eye back, which he didn't have just a few days ago. AND... he wouldn't have survived the healing process in the wild as some predator would no doubt have gotten him.

Pidgey


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Just wondering about the spartrix still, how many doses per day and for how long? I did read a little about it anouther thread i think he is only getting it once a day. But there is a issue with his weight only 300, Alienbaby could you tell me what strength of spartrix this is? and thanks again for sending me the meds, it was very kind of you (not sure if there are different stengths) Since most people don't think he has canker or atleast can't see it then would i only give it to him for 3-5 days?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Many people do think that canker could be an underlying issue.* The spartrix pills are 10mg carnidazolum. They can be given 1 time a day for 3-5 days...water should be with held for 2 hours after.


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Dahlilla said:


> Just wondering about the spartrix still, how many doses per day and for how long? Alienbaby could you tell me what strength of spartrix this is?





Charis said:


> *Many people do think that canker could be an underlying issue.* The spartrix pills are 10mg carnidazolum. They can be given 1 time a day for 3-5 days...water should be withheld for 2 hours after.


Hi Dahlilla! What Charis said.  The box says each pill is 10 mg carnidazole. (The instructions are not in English.) Charis knows about meds and dosages so definitely go with the above advice.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Spartix dosage is 20 mG/kG


This then would mean one Tablet of 10 mG would be the dose for 1000 Gram Pigeon.

For a 300 Gram Pigeon, the dose would be about 1/3rd of a Tablet.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

My formulary says that for a pigeon the dose is 12.5 - 25mg/bird orally once, but I believe that the instructions on the box are 1 tablet per adult bird once. Colin Walker says 1 tablet per adult bird (this would be about 400 gms), proportionally less for a squab, but recommends up to 4 doses.

The safety margin for spartrix is very wide, doses of up to X 32 have had no ill effect...not that I would try that!

Not that I think the infection is canker, but dosing it prophilactically will do no harm (IMO) at that age.

BTW, Phil, if it is 20mg per kg, then 10mg is for 500gms...so maybe they reckon an adult bird (racer) is 500 gms?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh! "Duh!" Lol...

I HATE the Metric system!!!


2.2 Pounds is 1 Kilogramme.

Then my poor Pea Brain transposes some of that to be where one Kilogramme is 2,000 Grams.

Horrid!


Thanks for catching that Feefo, good Eye...it never ends!


But if one translate, say, the German part of the folded up little paper instruction thing that comes in the Box, if I remember right, Dosage is stated as 20 mG/kG anyway.


Your Formulary is more revealing of a guide though, in so far as dosages will be found to work fine even if widely varying.

Duration of regimen can definitely matter.

I have never seen any instance of Canker where 'one pill one time' did anything at all.

Usually it is five to twelve days worth.


I originally used a whole 10 mG Tablet for a regular 300-odd Gram Pigeon, and even at that, it would be no less than five days, and often more like nine or ten, depending.


And my understanding also is that it is very forgiving.



So, manufacturer;s recommended dosage, would be 10 mG for 500 Grammes worth of Pigeon.

Or proportions there-of...according to weight.


I will go bang my head against the wall now...Lol...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

No Phil...one kilo gramme =1000 grams

Cindy...I can tell you this...in *1990,* my veterinarian friend and I ordered spartrix for pigeons with canker. The directions, taped on the box in English,said...1 pill, 1 time. That dosage didn't make much of a difference at all and we euthanized far too many pigeons because we thought the canker was resistant and there was nothing we could do. It hurts me very much to think about it now...one of my ghosts that some times wakes me in the middle of the night.
Once we started dosing with spartrix 5 days in a row , the canker cleared and we didn't need to euthanize any more pigeons. Here in Portland, the past few years I have had better luck with metronidazole.
Does your bird have canker...none of us can say he does for sure although I am suspicious.Canker outbreaks can be caused by stress and certainly the bird is in a stressful situation. Personally, I think the bird must be in a lot of pain. I know how much it can hurt when I get something in my eye.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Oh! "Duh!" Lol...
> 
> I HATE the Metric system!!!


 LOL, I grew up on it...but give me pints, pounds and ounces and I am totally lost...


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

ok well i am very confused now lol too much for my pea brain too it would seem so can someone tell me exactly what percentage of the pill for how long and for his weight then? Karyn are you around....perhaps i need somone to speak in my tounge.(which is only 20 days experince with a bird) i just can't keep up with everyones interpretations im very new to forum talking, and not much of a online chatter what so ever.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, "pop" one pill into your little guy for the next two nights (this includes tonight as one of those nights), this will be three in total, and we should be good with this.

Also, in my excitement last night, with the great photos you put up, I forgot to mentioned there has never been any doubt where your heart is with your rescue, you have done a great job for him, he would not be alive right now without you. As a result of the what the photos now show, it now seems less, than more likely, that he just may not need any surgical intervention. Pidgey seems to be saying once the inflammatory debris is out of that cut, there is a very good chance it will heal up on its own. Don't forget the few other photos Phil wanted of just behind the eye and you should still carefully be putting the Neosporin on scalp, being careful right now to get none around the eye, to heal it heal up well. A few photos of his most recent droppings would be good as well.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*More pictures*

Pictures of back of scalp and eye. Sorry will have to wait for more pictures of the droppings as i had no choice but to return the camera tonight, i will try my best to borrow it again soon.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*pictures*

and some more pictures,


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, I got some feedback today from the other vet I spoke of. Again, was told the same thing, which is trying to make recommendations off a few photos is a very tricky thing to to. However, it was volunteered that if the bird were here he would start with debriding the area (cleaning out the inflammatory debris with instruments) so it could better be determined if once things were cleaned up whether it would heal on its own with time, or might need a stitch or two. He also said to stop the Neosporin, as by now between it and the Cipro the infection has been addressed and he is not a big fan of ointments he much prefers cream based products.

Pidgey also PMed me recommending that we could stop the Neosporin everywhere for now and see how things go. Also, here's the thing, Pidgey has also recommended earlier we just let things be for a bit and see how the wounds progress, he indicated there is a chance that the debris just may come out in time, by the body healing and with some help from your little guy. Pidgey has a great deal of experience dealing with wounds and how they heal over time, were a vet would just "deal" with it now, so let's go with what Pidgey recommends and see how things go.

So let's do this, I think today may be the end of the 5 extra days we were going to do the Cipro for, if it is stop the Cipro, if not, give the few other required doses to complete the 12 days we talked about before. Store the little bit of remaining Cipro in the fridge.

If you could manage it, I would like you go to one of those Dollar Stores and pick up a small, cheap bottle of baby "no tears" shampoo. I would like you to give your little guy a bath using this shampoo, to give him a good clean up all over. You can us a small pan and warm water, plus a cup to pour water over him to rinse. I would like you to very, very carefully use some of the shampoo to help remove all the ointment from his head area. Since ointments are petrolatum based products, we will need a surfactant (surface active agent IE. detergent IE mild shampoo) to remove it all. Try using some Q-Tips, take your time to get all the ointment out, remember no rubbing or pulling on the wounds, pat/lift only. When finished use some Kleenex or paper towels to sop up most of the water from him and you can then use a blow-dryer, set on low, to dry him up some more. Keep the dryer moving and test distance for heat to the back of your hand to gage distance and heat. nicely warm, not hot at all.

Post photos of the eye and scalp every 3 days, so we can monitor progress and to access as we go along, also continue to post photos of his droppings and weight. If the are any concerns about anything at all, post right away. Let's give it a bit of time, see how the wounds progress and take it from there.

Karyn


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I haven't had the time to read every single word of the latest posts, BUT .. from what I've read, I would agree to stop the application of cream or ointment and let's see what happens with the "wounds". I'm pretty sure that there will be a dramatic improvement in a very short period of time.

I thank each and everyone who has been so diligent and helpful in this thread. I think we are going to have a very good outcome in the end. Good work P-T members and an absolutely fabulous job by Dahlilla.

Terry


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

ok sounds good thanks Karyn and Terry. I don't have much to post today other than ive noticed his droppings went from brown to green overnight. The only thing i did differently in the last couple days was to mix in a better quality of food, would that change the color, or is it the discontinue of the meds?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

or would the spartrix do that?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, could be either, well he has finished his Spartrix, has/or should be finishing his Cipro, give it a day or two, unless something real unusual is going on, then post a new photo of his fresh droppings, so we can see how he is doing. Outside of that, keep a good eye on the wounds, that they continue to look better not worse, any change in swelling, redness or size, please report right away. Keep him on the ACV water and in a few days, put out a shallow pan (1"-2" deep) of tepid water for to see if he would enjoy giving himself a bath, they really do quite enjoy bathing and I find it picks up their spirits when they want to bathe and can do so.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*New picture*

picture of eye June 28th


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, thanks very much for the latest photo. It looks like it slowly healing. Is there anyway we could have another go with the "no tears" baby shampoo and try and really get all of the ointment from his head, so it looks "dry" and not still so "oily" looking? 

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I just washed his feathers in that pic thats why it looks wet, it shouldn't be greasy anymore. i will get some better photos tomorrow.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh... OK, very good! Was thinking it may just be that. Cindy, I was told we need to be patient with this, it's not going to be a one week wonder kind of thing.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*More Pictures*

more pictures of the eye and head, thanks Karyn yes im begining to understand how long it will take to heal...seams to be going at a snails pace but thats probably because there were such dramatic results in the first week i had him from the eye being totaly swollen shut to it gradually opening up so that we could see that he had use of the eye, then the infection set in and almost took a few steps backwards but i guess didn't understand at first the severity of the damage to around the eye. I have lots of patience...i just hope pigeon understands that one day he will hopefully be free again. lol i hate the thought of a wild bird being caged up and the cage isn't that big to start with.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pictures*

Anouther picture after i gave him a bath so feathers are wet.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks to Allienbaby for the generous donation i recieved in the mail today, so very kind and thoughtfull i just can't say thank you enough. Well i have enought to go and get him checked out atleast im just affraid of what kind of test and medicine the Vet is going to make me get.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dahlilla,


Wow, you have sure hung in there wonderfully with this little one..!


If someone who has seen and dealt with a lot of Bird injuries, could have a look at the Head there, it would be good, just to make sure there are no issues going on ( on the back of the Head particularly, ) which would require any intervention.

Probably it is merely a large scab, albeit, from a quite serious and deep wound...and, that all it needs it to be kept moist, and, be allowed to heal on it's own, and probably likewise with the injury above the Eye Lid.


But, just to be on the safe side, if someone, an experienced Bird Rehabber or better Avian Vet, could have a look, that would be good, and would set some things to rest for you.

It is just so hard for us to get the same view in images, as one can get in real life.


How are the poops?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, Pidgey did PM me that things were fine and it was just going to take a fair amount of time for things to get where we want them to be.

Well with Alienbaby's generous help you now have the means to be on the safe side, to have someone with experience have eyes and hands on in person, to make sure nothing is being missed that can't be picked up through a photo.

Please keep us updated and remember, he's your pet (will need a name now) and stick to it.

Bless you Alienbaby,

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

the droppings are still turning from green to brown periodically, I will see if there is a fresh one so i can take a picture of it lol.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, when you go in, take a few fresh droppings, as they can do a few quick and inexpensive tests on them.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pigeon Poop*

Latest picture of his droppings.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok thanks phil and karyn for the latest information i will go into the vet but don't know when that might be i will see if there open this weekend and get him in if possible.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dropping does not look too bad, nice white urates, not badly formed, a bit wet, but there could be a number of reasons for this. This weekend should be fine.

Karyn


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Dahlilla said:


> ** Thanks to Allienbaby for the generous donation i recieved in the mail today*, so very kind and thoughtfull i just can't say thank you enough.
> 
> *** Well i have enought to go and get him checked out atleast *im just affraid of what kind of test and medicine the Vet is going to make me get.


* That's wonderful, Cindy.







Alienbaby.

** When searching for a vet, you don't need to look for an _avian_ vet, specifically, Cindy. 
From what I've read and heard, avian vets can be quite costly and usually aren't accustom to treating pigeons. 

To start out, I would focus on '_general_' vets with avian experience. Preferably one having knowledge of, and who feels comfortable treating, pigeons.
And as Charis suggested in her 'How to find a Rehabber or Veterinarian thread', don't hesitate to ask questions. 

Please keep us posted on how things go. 

Cindy


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Dahlilla said:


> Thanks to Allienbaby for the generous donation i recieved in the mail today, so very kind and thoughtfull i just can't say thank you enough. Well i have enought to go and get him checked out atleast im just affraid of what kind of test and medicine the Vet is going to make me get.


Hi there Dahlilla,

You're welcome! I'm just glad it made it to your mailbox okay. It's actually my way of thanking _*you*_. I think you've been so great with this pigeon and I appreciate the care you've given him.  I agree with Karyn: maybe a suitable name will come to you soon because he's "yours" now. 

Best wishes to you in finding a good vet. I hope you won't have any trouble locating one-- Sending positive thoughts your way that everything will work out. 

I'm away on holidays for the next week, but I'll check in when I get back and see how things are going. I'll be thinking of you guys!


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

*Pigeon update*

Well he has removed both of his scabs now the one on the eye and back of the head, head wound looks really good nice and pink skin, no open wounds, the eye on the other hand seems to have a small open wound still left open about a quarter of an inch long. I have attached some pictures from the phone camera, don't have the digital camera available. Made an appointment to see a vet here in town on tuesday and it is a little less expensive, only 38 dollars compared to the 58 dollars for the avain specialized vet. Will post anouther update on tuesday after the exam. Happy 4th of July!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, that head wound looks like it's coming along well well, as I said a while back, in time it will heal so you will not really know it was as bad as it was. Remember, the eye wound was really quite bad, and Pidgey reminded us just days ago, it was going to take a bit of time to come around. You are doing great, thanks for the continuing updates, I do think about your little guy, most everyday.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Karyn that is very sweet, you guys have helped me out so much i think about you often too and will miss talking on this forum when my little guy is all better. Went to the vets today...finaly. Vet said the wounds are healing up great but he would suggest putting him on antibiotics again just in case, so he prescribed me some baytril 0.05 Mls every 12 hours for 14 days so i guess i will start that tonight, and he also got me to get some antiseptic scrub im suppose to wash his sores every 12 hours with a drop of the antiseptic scrub with a moist kleenex or cotton ball. he suggested polysporin eye drops, he also said the more i can rinse his eye injury the better to prevent a scab forming over the little area over his eye thats not quite healed over yet guess if a scab forms then the injury can't get proper air circulation for the injury to heal. oh and he also weighed him and he only weighs 288 but the vet said it could be do to a little left over infection he might be fighting. I told the vet that my cat attacked him in order to keep to the story that he is my pet so he didn't think it was neccisary to analyze the droppings. So i still don't know if there might be other underlying issues with his weight loss ie worms. I forgot to give him his second dose of that de wormer im 7 days late can i give it to him now? What is going on with the braggs apple cider vinnegar should i just leave him on that since he is going on antibiotics again? I guess the probiotics will have to wait now too. Well thats all for now i will be back online tonight after work to check any correspondance. How long does it take for a bird to loose his wing muscles and make it hard for them to fly? I have no idea what im going to do to reablitate him its not like we have rehabbitors here, do i just call wildlife control and hope that he will be looked after that last step of recovery?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

I browse the internet briefly before i have to head off to work and found a site listing rehabbitors in bc, i will have to go thru the list when i get home from work and see if there is anyone near me, im taking a week off come this monday so i could drive him somewhere in the okanagan valley if there is anyone.

Here is a B.C. rehabbers list. Don't know if anyone is near Kelowna, but I would suggest trying them anyway as they may know of someone in Kelowna.

Canada, British Columbia..... 250-337-2021 

Mary Jane Birch (director), Wildlife Rehabilitators' Network of British Columbia 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: birds, raptors, mammals 
Comments: education, library, bursary, directory, networking, resources 
for BC wildlife professionals, workshops 
Canada, British Columbia..... 604-794-7383 or cell 604-701-2706 

Pam Briar, licensed home wildlife rehabilitator 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: opossums, raccoons, squirrels 
Canada, British Columbia (Burnaby)..... 604-526-7275 

The Wildlife Rescue Association of British Columbia 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: native and migratory birds, but treat all smaller urban wildlife, both birds and mammals 
Canada, British Columbia (Courtenay)..... 250-337-2021 

Mary Jane (maj) Birch (Rehabilitator), Mountainaire Avian Rescue Society 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: rescue of all wild birds, some mammals and marine mammals 
Comments: also do transport and networking 
Canada, British Columbia (Delta)..... 604-946-3171 

Bev Dav, (director) OWL (Orphaned Wildlife) Rehabilitation Society 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: Only, but ALL birds of prey. Eagles, hawks, falcons, and owls 
Specialties: 27 years Raptor experience 
Comments: We will accept referrals particularly for pre-release flight training for large birds 
Canada, British Columbia (Fort Nelson)..... 250-774-7669 

Kelly McMillan, Northern C.A.R.E.S. Wildlife Rehabilitation Society 
Wildlife Species: raptors 
Canada, British Columbia (Gibsons)..... 604-886-4989 

Clint and Irene Davy (operators), Gibsons Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: small mammals only, all kinds of birds 
Comments: experience in cleaning and rehabbing oilspill birds 
Canada, British Columbia (Halfmoon Bay)..... 604-885-5997 

Joanne Dickeson, Sunshine Coast Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre 
Canada, British Columbia (Langley)..... 604-530-2064 

Gail Martin (Founder/Executive Director), Critter Care Wildlife Society 
Wildlife Species: specialize in raccoons, but take all of urban native mammal (only) species 
SPECIALTIES and KNOWLEDGE: Raccoons, squirrels etc. 
Canada, British Columbia (New Westminster)..... 604-540-2272 

Roberta Sushnyk, management, HomeFinders Turtle Rescue Canada 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: turtles and small mammals 
Canada, British Columbia, North Central region (Prince George)..... 250-963-3373 

Rachel Morey (founder, owner, operator), Northern Wildlife Rescue 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: mammals and raptors only 
Canada, British Columbia, Northwest region (Prince Rupert)..... 250-624-4143 

Gunther and Nancy Golinia (owner/manager), Prince Rupert Wildlife Rehab Shelter 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: all 
Specialties/Knowledge: deer, eagles, songbirds, wildlife rescue 
Canada, British Columbia (Prince George)..... 250-962-0015 

Rachel Morey (treasurer, public relations, volunteer), Northern Raptor Preservation Society 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: small mammals and raptors 
Canada, British Columbia (Prince Rupert)..... 250-624-4143 

Nancy and Gunther Golinia Prince Rupert Wildlife Rehab Shelter 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: all species (Eagles, owls, deer, heron, ducks, songbirds, etc.) 
Specialty: raising deer fawns 
Canada, British Columbia, Southwest region, British Columbia County (Abbotsford)..... 
604-852-9173 

Elizabeth Melick (Executive director/Founder), Elizabeth's Wildlife Center Society 
Wildlife Species: all wild birds and small mammals e.g. cottontails, snowshoe hares, 
squirrels, opossums 
Canada, British Columbia, Southwest region, Sunshine Coast (Gibsons)..... 604-886-4989 

Clint and Irene Davy (owner/operators), Gibsons Wildlife Rehabilitation Centre 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: small mammals, all species of birds 
Limitations: no large mammals 
Specialty: oil spills 
Comments: have operated a wildlife rehabilitation centre for over 20 years 
Canada, British Columbia, Southwest region (Surrey)..... 604-882-0908 

Val Donovan (volunteer coordinator), Monika's Wildlife Shelter 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: all species of native wildlife 
Specialties/Knowledge: raptors, swans, and deer 
Comments: over 4,000 admissions anually 
Canada, British Columbia, Southwest region, Vancouver..... 604-258-7325 

Marine Mammal Rescue, Vancouver Aquarium Marine Science Centre 
Wildlife Species: marine mammals 
Canada, British Columbia, Southwest region, Victoria..... 250-478-9453 

BC SPCA Wild ARC - Wild Animal Rehabilitation Centre 
[email protected] 
Wildlife Species: All small and medium sized birds and mammals 
Canada, British Columbia, Tofino..... 250-725-3783 

Rory Paterson, Rory's Refuge Wild Bird Rehabilitation Centre 
Wildlife Species: seabirds


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, thanks for the update on you little one's visit to the vet.

As you already know, I have been on the issue of his weigh for quite sometime now and his weight at 288 grams is really quite concerning to me. For the amount of time you now had him and the amount of good quality food freely available to him, I really would have liked to see him around the 350 gram mark by now. It comes back to the issue raised before, what caused him to be in the circumstances he has found himself in and he has so far been treated, either directly or indirectly, for a number of things now with the drugs he has been on. I have a few ideas, but instead of speculating what I would really like to see done is a full fecal analysis run, which would be a fecal float and gram staining done, don't worry your vet will know what this means and what to do. 

I know your story was your cat, that's why no fecal tests were done, but right now I think it's a very important test to run. Just tell him the discussion boards told you that they can harbor a number of things that can flair when a bird is ill (this is true by the way) and you were really urged to have a full fecal done. Ask if you could just bring in some fresh droppings, as you don't need a full exam.

Hold off a bit on any meds, they can interfere with results, he can wait another day to start. Something I think is going on with that may need a bit of sleuthing to get to the bottom of. I would feel much better if all the things that could be ruled out be a fecal were ruled out and if something is there, that it is discovered now.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I have been thinking about his or her weight also, and I do not know.


I have full blown adult feral Hens who probably have never weighed more than 288 soaking wet...and others, who have nudged the 400 mark.

They come in different sizes and builds!

Some are like French Draft Horses, others, like Gazelles...Lol...


I would like to know more about how active or vital this one seems once off the meds a while.

So far, in the images, she does seem to have something of a subdued way about her, which could be taken to suggest a condition may be present which would be nice to ammend so she feels perky again, and, she probably would put on some weight then, if so.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok, I will phone tomorrow and make arrangements to drop off a dropping sample for the full fecal analysis run. Thanks Karyn, i will post when i know more.


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Well he/she has been off all meds for 12 days now, doesn't seem to be much different, i put a icecream bucket upsided down in his cage cause he likes to look out over the railing of the balcony he walks around on it jumps up and down to the bottom of the cage to eat/drink, streches his wings out at night mainly, and recently he just jumps down walks around the bucket then hops back up, really cleaning and preaning himself lately, occasionaly he jumps on the sides of the cage to get a higher perch. seems pretty active well....as active as he can be in a 16"x14"x2 Ft tall cage. When i clean his cage i put him in a square see thru plastic basket and he doesn't do anything but stand there, doesn't even try to fly out. that i find kinda unusual but it is about a 1 ft deep x1 ft x 1.5 long and not much room to spread out his wings and too high to jump so maybe that is why. he doesn't coo much unless i try and pick him up, gets mad at my boyfriend when he tries to pet him lol and we occasionaly play some pigeon cooing on the computer and he coos then. he doesn't like loud trucks or loud noises but other than that not too much bothers him. Oh we also have crows in the front tree and he doesn't like them much either.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, maybe I was bit optimistic with the 350 grams, but I sure would have liked to see an edging up in the weight than an edging down after all this time. You can collect all his/her overnight droppings into a small container (a few different ones from different times is better), don't worry if a few seeds get mixed in. You can refrigerate this if need be to help preserve freshness for a bit. Then you can start him/her on the Baytril and give the second dose of Pyrantel. We just really want to make sure by doing this we are not missing something obvious and easily treatable. What does the Baytril say in terms of strength on the label?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yeahhhh...I would expect her to show more interest in Flying, also.

So, we have a few reasons to wonder if something is 'there' which is keeping her from feeling better and more vital.

I see this phase with convelescents I deal with, where, once over the hump a ways, they are pacing and leaping and clinging to the Cage sides dieing to get "OUT" and so on, bored with being cooped up!

Where, while convelescing, they had been tranquil or accepting of the Cage...so...


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

no strength given on the bottle its just a perscription dark glass bottle with a self stick lable. 

Rutland Pet Hospital
595 Houghton Rd
Kelowna, BC, V1X 6E9
(250) 765-2916

7/6/2010 Dr Laverne De Yaegher, DVM
12802 Cindy ------- Piggey
Rx# 46113 Avian Pigeon
Directions. Please give 0.05 mls by mourh every
12 hours for 14 days.

Refills 0
Quantity 2 Baytril for oral use


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

well he does fight me when i go in and get him, then he can't wait to get loose from my hands but yeah seems like he just wants to get back in the cage as fast as he can. Was flying around the vet office today though had to grab him a couple times as he was trying to get away. he did get loose a few times in the early days and flew right into the patio doors he had more fight for flight in the begining for sure.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...do you have a Room or other ample space for them to be able to be in free fly?

Build up their Muscles and so on? 

where it would be safe for them to do so?

While continued care and regimens continue?


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

No, I wish i did, i live in a one bedroom condo, and i can't bring him to the store because of my cats.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, don't know how you would feel about this, but the times I have had a bird inside for extended hospital care. If I feel the bird is up to it, I take the bird up to our spare bedroom and let the bird fly around to exercise, might even gently chase it a bit to help in this matter. On the ones that I know will not just allow me to walk over and pick them up after, I do this at night so I can just turn off the light, then walk over in the dark/dim light and pick them up. If droppings are a concern, you could do this right after he does a dropping, as this reduces chances of another, many times, for 15 minutes, and if they do a dropping it will usually be small. Just a thought.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

oh ok well i will ask my boyfriend if its ok with him because its not my house, but yeah i don't think he would have a big problem with 15 minutes a night after a recent dropping. Thank you very much for that information, i will just have to remember to close the blinds on the patio door so he doesn't injure himself flying into it. Well i went in with the droppings to the vet today, cost me more to do the full fecal test than it did the exam/antibiotics and anticeptic soap yesterday, but they also charged me shipping(to vancouver i assume) and HST (tax) the fecal test itself only cost 39 dollars. They said they will let me know when the results come in. They sure were looking at me strange when i wanted to do the fecal test anyways but they don't know the whole story on my little guy so i can understand why they might be a little perplexed. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dahlilla,


Forgive me if this was already covered previously...but, had you very thoroughly checked for any small scabs under her Feathers, on her Body proper, in case there were any older Pellet Gun perforations?

These can hide and be very hard to find...and, they will typically have a barely palpable small scab which remains a long time for being un-debrided.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Dahlilla said:


> oh ok well i will ask my boyfriend if its ok with him because its not my house, but yeah i don't think he would have a big problem with 15 minutes a night after a recent dropping. Thank you very much for that information, i will just have to remember to close the blinds on the patio door so he doesn't injure himself flying into it. Well i went in with the droppings to the vet today, cost me more to do the full fecal test than it did the exam/antibiotics and anticeptic soap yesterday, but they also charged me shipping(to vancouver i assume) and HST (tax) the fecal test itself only cost 39 dollars. They said they will let me know when the results come in. They sure were looking at me strange when i wanted to do the fecal test anyways but they don't know the whole story on my little guy so i can understand why they might be a little perplexed.
> 
> Cindy


Sounds good, I am sure s/he will perhaps appreciate the chance to exercise the wings and get the blood going. Sometimes with this stuff, even with a vet involved, there are times when no firm or conclusive answers are to be had, so in those cases we try and eliminate as many of the things that are probable and then start to speculate on the more unusual possibilities. Phil, has made a good mention, to give your little guy a good going over looking for any old wounds about the body that could show he was possibly shot by someone with a pellet gun, take your time, as the feathers can be a little dense in some spots and we don't want to miss anything.

Glad things went well brining in the droppings for testing. Most vets do these tests on site, the fecal float and gram staining, perhaps there are few other things he ran that required him to use an outside lab, hence a higher cost. When the test results are back, make sure they are clear with you on all the tests that were run as well as the results.

Karyn


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Brought the bird out last night for some exersize, he sat ontop of the cage for awhile before i had to go over there and force him to get some exersize. between Ron and I we kept goin over to the cage and brought him to the far side of the room and he flew over to the cage again and again. Seems to be a little bit more restless today, flappin around in the cage this morning stretching his wings out alot. We will keep doing it every night thanks Karyn for the information on timed droppings it worked out really well. Phil we did also give him a thorough goin over and didn't find anything but yes the feathers are very thick in some areas was hard to do. Well just waiting for the fecal results now so will keep you posted when i know more.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dahlilla,


Okeydoke...

Sounds good...


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Cindy, sounds like s/he was grateful for a chance to exercise. I think over all it will help benefit in the recovery, glad you are going to give him a chance everyday if you can. While the timing of droppings is not perfect, it works most times and cuts down things ending up where you don't want them. Did you start the Baytril and give another dose of the Pyrantel?

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think being allowed to fly indoors safely, and to exercise and goof around, would be good...let her have all of that you can.


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Hi Cindy & everybody,

I'm back from holidays and just thought I'd check in. 

How's your little patient doing this week, Cindy? Have you heard back from the vet about the fecal test yet? 

I'm glad you're able to give the pidge some exercise-- sounds like he's feeling a bit better if he's wanting to stretch his wings. Hope all is well. You guys are never far from my thoughts!!


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## Dahlilla (Jun 4, 2010)

Hello Allienbaby, hope you had a great holiday. Back from my holidays too was very relaxing. My little guy is doing wonderfu, hisl eye and head has healed up nicely, still waiting for his eye lid to open up fully, as its only open 3/4 of the way. Can he still fly ok if his eye is partialy obstructed by the eyelid? I will put some new photos up tonight after work. No i haven't gotten the results back from the fecal tests yet i will have to call them today if there is no message at work. Thanks so much for caring.

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Can he still fly ok if his eye is partialy obstructed by the eyelid?


He should be OK...we have several one-eyed pigeons that manage fine...but I won't release any as I can blindside them too easily when they are perching so a predator could do the same.

Cynthia


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