# Thanks to PT



## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi there all,

I just want to say thanks to PT and it's members, there is an absolute wealth of information here, anyone even considering racing pigeons should stop off here first. I have read many interesting articles which have opened my eyes and even had me change some of my aspects of training, feeding and medicating.

We have just finished up with our young bird races, the first 2 weeks were not too brilliant, I got some places but not many, the championship race held on Saturday last week was excellent http://www.pswu.co.za/racenews/yb2011.html my son and I took 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.

I think alot can be put down to tips that I got here at PT.

Thanks once again.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

1-5 that's excellent! Thanks for sharing.

Here's to your continued success!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

vandergill said:


> Hi there all,
> 
> I just want to say thanks to PT and it's members, there is an absolute wealth of information here, anyone even considering racing pigeons should stop off here first. I have read many interesting articles which have opened my eyes and even had me change some of my aspects of training, feeding and medicating.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing !!


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

Terrific Results! Nice going.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

vandergill said:


> Hi there all,
> 
> I just want to say thanks to PT and it's members, there is an absolute wealth of information here, anyone even considering racing pigeons should stop off here first. I have read many interesting articles which have opened my eyes and even had me change some of my aspects of training, feeding and medicating.
> 
> ...


You should share some of the advice you received that help you win that race. The things that you did to be successful. Might help others in here win a few.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> You should share some of the advice you received that help you win that race. The things that you did to be successful. Might help others in here win a few.


Agree. I love the idea. (Surely you are a master because master never stops learning and will still even ask for tips. We can't possibly know everything!)

Vandergill,
Your performance rocks!


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## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> You should share some of the advice you received that help you win that race. The things that you did to be successful. Might help others in here win a few.


Hi there guys,

We basically changed our feeding methods according to the articles I found on PT.

The articles I have read up on were mainly regarding the storage of fats, our pigeons convert fats to energy for them to fly, contrary to many peoples views that these fats are stored in the muscles of the bird, this is true, however, this fat lasts for very little time and then the bird needs to start drawing on muscle (protein) to sustain the energy.

If we feed correctly throughout the week leading up to the race, you can in fact cause fat to be stored in the liver, which is exactly what you want, this allows for the fats stored here to be converted to energy.

Basically what we want to do is start the week on a high protein diet to allow muscle to recover and build, the further the week progresses the less protein and more carbs should be fed. 

*Three rules:*

1. Hi protein diets _*do not*_ allow for fat storage to the liver

2. Hi fat diets *do not *allow for fat storage to the liver

3. Hi carbohydrate diets *do*allow for fat storage to the liver

Whether it is a training toss or a race, high carbs is the answer to your pigeons energy reserves.

In my opinion this is where the trick lies, the smooth transition from proteins to carbs.

I also have a great belief in what we call speed tosses, we take the bird out about 60km and release them about 45 mins before sunset, this forces them to get home as quickly as possible or risk sleeping the night out. We find that they do this toss in about 30 mins. Remember that before you start your speed tosses that your birds should be race ready.

These are just a couple of the things I have fiddled with.

Cheers


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks for the info, makes a lot of sense. When I used to body build we would use protein and carbs the same way. Protein to build the muscle and carbs before the work-out for energy. Like the speed toss idea also. many feed depurative when the birds get home form the race. Never made much sense to me since the bird is deprived of amino acids and in need of protein to build muscle. Protein after the race makes sense. What percentage do you use when the birds return.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Also does your fat level stay constant? Or do you also increase it for the longer races in the form of safflower or peanuts?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.pipa.be/en/community/forum/feeding-4

Like to investigate. Here is some good post reading on the subject.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

vandergill said:


> Hi there guys,
> 
> We basically changed our feeding methods according to the articles I found on PT.
> 
> ...


The rules you mentioned are probably from Dr. Chalmer's articles. All those conclusions of yours are from scientific articles.

Increasing the fat content and lessening the protein concentration is what people calls carb loading. Basically you are stacking up fat deposits so that the liver and muscles will have reserve energy.

Some of your points, however, are incorrect. For sudden energy it is carbohydrates that are immediately used up. Protein doesn't get used up right away, but rather it is the fat that is used to sustain energy. That should make sense because fat has three times the value caloric-wise. When the bird runs out of energy from fat, then the protein will get converted to useful energy. That is why on long distance races you will see that the bird will lose some weight (it gets skinny).

Excess carbohydrates gets converted to fat and get stored in the liver. Obviously adding fats give more fats except perhaps adding too much fat might prevent fat storage in the liver.

The reference articles:
1.) http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/fuel.cfm
2.) http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/breastmusclespart1.cfm
3.) http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/dietarypart1.cfm


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

RodSD said:


> Agree. I love the idea. (Surely you are a master because master never stops learning and will still even ask for tips. We can't possibly know everything!)
> 
> Vandergill,
> Your performance rocks!


Rod, I am far from an expert on this subject. There are a bunch of theories out there on how to feed during race week. Many of the toppers are finding that one race mix, lower in protein and high in variety and carbs is all they use. The birds will eat what they want. Many are even feeding more then they will eat. When they stop, they take the left overs and feed to the late hatches etc. Let the birds choose. One constant I see is a lower protein mixture. Some add a few fats later in the week on longer races. What is new to me is the extra protein soon after the races. I do not fly from my loft, but am interested in helping my partner get the feeding a bit better for next year.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Rod, I am far from an expert on this subject. There are a bunch of theories out there on how to feed during race week. Many of the toppers are finding that one race mix, lower in protein and high in variety and carbs is all they use. The birds will eat what they want. Many are even feeding more then they will eat. When they stop, they take the left overs and feed to the late hatches etc. Let the birds choose. One constant I see is a lower protein mixture. Some add a few fats later in the week on longer races. *What is new to me is the extra protein soon after the races*. I do not fly from my loft, but am interested in helping my partner get the feeding a bit better for next year.


That should have been common sense if you have done bodybuilding or some fitness stuff. (I did bodybuilding from high school to early college, but quit now so I am skinny.) Basically you are trying to repair the broken muscle tissue/cells. Because protein is the structural component so you need those. When birds are raced and their chest muscles look blue, then you know some of their muscles need to get repaired so you have to give the birds more protein. Then as week goes by you can lessen the protein and fatten the birds up (carb/fat loading). Basically you are trying to help the bird recovers faster and help restore and store energy reserves. I thought everyone knew this!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

RodSD said:


> That should have been common sense if you have done bodybuilding or some fitness stuff. (I did bodybuilding from high school to early college, but quit now so I am skinny.) Basically you are trying to repair the broken muscle tissue/cells. Because protein is the structural component so you need those. When birds are raced and their chest muscles look blue, then you know some of their muscles need to get repaired so you have to give the birds more protein. Then as week goes by you can lessen the protein and fatten the birds up (carb/fat loading). Basically you are trying to help the bird recovers faster and help restore and store energy reserves. I thought everyone knew this!


Knew this as for humans, but as far as birds go you hear a lot of guys putting the birds on depurative when they get back from a race. Some feed straight barley for a few days to clean them out etc. One could even put some protein powder on the feed the day they come back with a bit of oil. Good protein with amino acids etc. Sometimes what you read goes against common sense. Would love to hear your feeding week during racing. One thing about getting a wealth of info on a subject is that you can be more educated to make your own decisions. I sent a bunch of birds out that have flown with many different feeding styles. They have done pretty well under all of them. But you want to win every race. Have a bit of input now fuels my need for more ideas.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

The problem with feeding is that we are dealing with different birds' health/vitality. Some recover faster. Some slower. And if your flock have similar in performances then that is why you don't see much difference with different feeding styles. They probably have the same or similar vitality/health. The way I see it is that if they do well with your types of feeding, stick with it! If we gonna go high tech we can go crazy because we will be calculating calories, energy used by pigeon, terrain distance, elevation, temperature/humidity, etc. (Not that I do!) Basically it is logistic.

My tip is to start carb/fat loading on Wednesday if race is on Saturday. Earlier than than the bird might end up fat and heavy because they will store fat in their liver and in their muscles. In human muscle recovery takes about 48-72 hours. The human strength increases 2-3 times along those times, too. I forgot how long pigeon recovers depending on a race distance.


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## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

RodSD said:


> The rules you mentioned are probably from Dr. Chalmer's articles. All those conclusions of yours are from scientific articles.
> 
> Increasing the fat content and lessening the protein concentration is what people calls carb loading. Basically you are stacking up fat deposits so that the liver and muscles will have reserve energy.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct, they are from those articles, regarding the carbs, that is what I was trying to say, the fats that are stored in muscle are used quickly as opposed to those that are stored in the liver. If your proteins or fats are too high, then you will have the fat stored in the muscle.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You are correct. Fat in the muscles get used up right away. That is why they are there (in the muscle)--to be used right away. For quick burst of energy, they will use carb first. The reason is that it is easier/faster to convert carbohydrates to energy than fats. They have different energy pathway conversion.

What is your starting high protein concentration if you wish to share? (You don't have to answer if it is one of those secret tips.)


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My thoughts are a guy might just use the breeding mix day of return, then back to a light mix until Wednesday and then load up with a few fats for longer races. Interested also in the protein and what types of protein/grains are used.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Also do you guys use barley to cut the food down the first of the week? A few opinions on this subject also.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> My thoughts are a guy might just use the breeding mix day of return, then back to a light mix until Wednesday and then load up with a few fats for longer races. Interested also in the protein and what types of protein/grains are used.


Almost there! The idea is to shock the pigeon's system. By depriving them of necessary fat you end up giving them high protein to build their muscles. Then, for some mysterious reason, the pigeon when it realizes that carbs and fat are available ends up building the fat reserves in the liver which is greater than if it is given their usual carb/fats. I suppose it is like bird's emergency response to being deprived of necessary carbs/fats. It "overbuilds" the fat stored in the liver. Thus it has "extra" reserves and its muscles have been recovered.

Thus you can't feed the birds the same protein concentration the whole racing season week. It should start from high protein concentration tapering off during the basket day while increasing the carb/fat per week. Then the cycle repeats again.

You can't feed the light mix the whole week, too. Or for that matter feed breeder's mix after race day, then light mix the rests. The muscle needs more protein for recovery. It is not shocked enough because it has not feed enough protein(or conversely not deprived enough of carbs/fat).


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Also...not that I think many will need it or use it but some might.

Protein 4 calories/gram
Carbs 4 calories /gram
Fats 9 calories /gram


And for some people...

Alcohol 7 calories/gram

I too do a bit of bodybuilding...still do so I am not skinny lol.


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## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

RodSD said:


> You are correct. Fat in the muscles get used up right away. That is why they are there (in the muscle)--to be used right away. For quick burst of energy, they will use carb first. The reason is that it is easier/faster to convert carbohydrates to energy than fats. They have different energy pathway conversion.
> 
> What is your starting high protein concentration if you wish to share? (You don't have to answer if it is one of those secret tips.)


I don't mind sharing, in my opinion, this is one of the reasons that the sport is going backwards, people with closely guarded secrets that will not help a newby.

On Sunday Morning (day after race) I start them out by increasing their protein level to approx 18%, this I achieve by cutting the race mix and substituting with legumes and soy powder. For their evening meal, I give a brewers yeast mixture, I mix brewers yeast and lemon juice into a custard like consistency and pour this over their race mix, allow it to dry in the sun and then break it up and feed, this act as a purifier. 

Monday, I substitute to about 15% morning, 13 % evening, Tuesday morning back onto their race mix, Tuesday evening I start decreasing the protein by increasing with something that is high in carbs and low in proteins. By Thursday I will be up at approx 70% carbs and ready for Basketing.

This is my method, I don't know if it makes sense to you.

You will find a grain calculator here http://www.pswu.co.za/software/graincalc.xls fiddle around with it and see what you come up with.

Cheers

Andy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks! Yeah, it makes sense to me. Your cutoff point seems to be Tuesday. Some people don't want to share their secrets because it is one of those things that they want to have advantage during race season. Some people call this heavy to light feeding. Some call it carb loading. In tippler competition it would be called "feedup", but they up the fat content instead because they want their birds to fly 12+ hours. In roller competition it is called yo-yo dieting.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Seems pretty simple to me. Many use the breeding mix as a base, then cut it down with depurative or carbs. Soy powder and brewers I like. Then cut it down the rest of the week. May add some fats for the longer races then you are set. 
Wonder if you use a base mix of say 12% protein, add protein Sunday, a bit monday, then leave it be. Seems pretty simple.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Or 18%+ protein after the race tapering off to 12%+ on Tuesday or Wednesday while upping the carbs to 70%+ until basket time. So as the protein concentration goes down, carbs and fat goes up. Then repeat the cycle.

I think the secret here is repairing and building the muscles with high protein (earlier in the week) and then storing the extra fat for the birds for extra energy(later in the week).

I haven't figured out the maximum fat concentration though because feeding too much fat prevents fat storage in the liver which seems to defeat the purpose of this carb loading. It does, however, add fat to muscles, but as Vandergill mentioned, that thing get used up pretty quickly so it is better if the liver stores it.

Yeah, it is simple. Better than doing scientific calculations.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

RodSD said:


> Or 18%+ protein after the race tapering off to 12%+ on Tuesday or Wednesday while upping the carbs to 70%+ until basket time. So as the protein concentration goes down, carbs and fat goes up. Then repeat the cycle.
> 
> I think the secret here is repairing and building the muscles with high protein (earlier in the week) and then storing the extra fat for the birds for extra energy(later in the week).
> 
> ...


Very similar to secrets of champions feeding info. Take the breeding mix and cut it down. Gives you your 18% for earlier and carb loading for later in the week when you cut the feed down with depurative, corn, barley, and even a few safflower for added fat. A guy might get away with two mixes. At then end of the week you would still have a portion of your feed a breeding mix with a good variety of seeds and added a bunch of carbs.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Has anyone put the time it takes for muscle to rebuild as a function of time in the air? Seems like you could use a scale. A two hour race would not hit the muscle too hard and not need a bunch of protein on return, whereas an 8 hour on the wing race would need a bunch of rebuilding. Seems like a system could be developed pretty easily around the extremes of 100% breeder for tough races to 100% race mix and all the mixture of each depending on duration in the air and toughness of the race. 
From this theory it seems that putting birds on pure barely or pure depurative mix early in the week defeats the muscle rejuvenation needs. The use of more protein may not even need to be implemented unless the race is over a period of time. May help solve the issues of birds burning out early in the series. Just throwing ideas out.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I am not familiar with secrets of champions feeding info. I made mine with what I had. Breeding mix are usually in the 16-18% range so I start with those. I patterned mine based on what Dr. Chalmers mentioned with his findings as well as my experience with bodybuilding and nutrition in the past. That it coincides is good to know.

I've read in the past about muscle damage per time in the air. I don't remember the science paper now. I should start bookmarking scientific papers that I read. (In the past I have done muscle research in the laboratory down to the actin, myosin level or basically the components of muscles to see how they works. We even simulated muscle movement by affecting calcium concentration, etc. There are minor muscle damage when we work out(lift weights, for example)). The lactic acid destroys muscles.

I don't know if you can only give 100% breeder mix for tough races. The reason is that after the body repair the body must also have to recover the carb/fat storage. The breeding mix and the race mix wont trigger that extra fat storage. So the best compromise is that heavy to light feeding.

I agree that birds that burned out are the result of poor muscle recovery due to lack of feeding more proteins. It doesn't matter if you have lots of energy if your muscle is sore and you can't do anything.

It is also true that 2 hour flight would not hit the muscle too hard and don't need bunch of protein, but because they use carbs/fat energy those should be replenish. But just to replenish it would not be enough because then you are just back to liver and muscles having their usual fat concentration. You need an extra edge or extra stored energy by that liver who got "tricked" into thinking that it "needs" to store more energy reserves.

I would agree that 8 hour on the wing need a bunch of muscle rebuilding. I think it would take 3 weeks for the bird to recover its muscle strength and energy. But other pigeons seem to recover faster. I think the Jannsen's birds are like that. They can race every week.


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## vandergill (Jun 29, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Has anyone put the time it takes for muscle to rebuild as a function of time in the air? Seems like you could use a scale. A two hour race would not hit the muscle too hard and not need a bunch of protein on return, whereas an 8 hour on the wing race would need a bunch of rebuilding. Seems like a system could be developed pretty easily around the extremes of 100% breeder for tough races to 100% race mix and all the mixture of each depending on duration in the air and toughness of the race.
> From this theory it seems that putting birds on pure barely or pure depurative mix early in the week defeats the muscle rejuvenation needs. The use of more protein may not even need to be implemented unless the race is over a period of time. May help solve the issues of birds burning out early in the series. Just throwing ideas out.


Some interesting ideas coming up here, the way I see it is the following, if a bird is coming back from a race and the muscles seem "atrophied" withered then the bird has dug unto protein supply as a source of energy (muscle is predominantly protein), the only reason that this would happen it that the bird ran out of fat reserves from the liver.

I do agree that after a long race the birds arrive home sore and aching from extended flight, however they should not be too much thinner than when they were sent. What you do for your birds over the next 2 days will determine how they are feeling. On there arrival from the race there should be a good electrolyte solution in the water with bicarbonate of soda, the bicarb will help ease the pain by neutralizing the lactic acid buildup in the muscles (this is what makes then stiff and sore) on Sunday (the day after the race, the birds that flew should be taken for a short 10 mile or so toss so that they can loosen up and stretch (thats what we do when we are stiff and sore)

This is the experience I have found, the last race of 2010 was from Three Sisters 809 km (502 miles) from my loft, release time was 07H00, we were expecting an overnight as it is approx 13 hours on the wing. 1058 (the union winner) was safely back in her loft at 23H15. She was given the usual mix in the water, food was awaiting her. On Sunday morning, she was sitting against the loft bars waiting to be let out with the rest, that does not sound like a tired worn out pigeon to me. When I handled her on Sunday evening, she felt full bodied yet light in the hand (just the way I like them)


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I totally agree with what you said. In tippler competition where the birds can fly almost the whole day there is a loss of body mass so what they do is to raise the bird's weight by either fattening them up(carbing, fattening) before the flight. I don't remember whether it is 10% body weight loss after the flight.

Your feeding technique(system) definitely works on your birds. If the bird felt wasted, then definitely it taxed its muscle protein which should be avoided as much as possible.


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