# How Does Your Club Figure Out Ace/Champion Bird Points?



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

My club never had anything like that but a few years ago I made a motion in my club to have an Ace Bird but nobody did anything to do it. But now that I'm the president of the club and I have a bird that won 2 races this season I'm gonna try to get the Ace Bird award going. My question is what formula does your club use to figure out the winner of either an Ace/Champion Bird in your club?


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well we did it very simple, winner of the race gets 40 points, minus one point each lower position until either 40 birds are clocked or the race is over. At the end of the season the bird with the most points is the champion birds, also the same way we figured out Champion loft.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> My club never had anything like that but a few years ago I made a motion in my club to have an Ace Bird but nobody did anything to do it. But now that I'm the president of the club and I have a bird that won 2 races this season I'm gonna try to get the Ace Bird award going. My question is what formula does your club use to figure out the winner of either an Ace/Champion Bird in your club?


 If your club is using Win Speed, then that system automatically calculates the points earned on every race. 1st place earns 100 pts. 2nd place 99 pts. 3rd place 98 pts. etc. etc. At the end of the season, bird with the most points, is the "Champion Bird".


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If your club is using Win Speed, then that system automatically calculates the points earned on every race. 1st place earns 100 pts. 2nd place 99 pts. 3rd place 98 pts. etc. etc. At the end of the season, bird with the most points, is the "Champion Bird".


We do use win speed and I seen the point system. But that really doesn't seam like a fair system. A bird can fly 3 races and win all 3 and get 300 points. Then another bird can fly 6 races and come in 50th 5 times and 49th the other and have 301 points. The bird who's best finish was 49th would be and ace or champion mean while you have a bird who won 3 races.


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

How can you say that a bird that flew only 3 races be better than a bird that flew 6 races?


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

sky tx said:


> How can you say that a bird that flew only 3 races be better than a bird that flew 6 races?


How can you say a bird who flew 6 races never coming in better then 49th is better then a bird who flew 3 races and won all three?


----------



## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

You need to change your system????? The bird with the most points is the Champion.
How do you figure Champion LOFT?


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> We do use win speed and I seen the point system. But that really doesn't seam like a fair system. A bird can fly 3 races and win all 3 and get 300 points. Then another bird can fly 6 races and come in 50th 5 times and 49th the other and have 301 points. The bird who's best finish was 49th would be and ace or champion mean while you have a bird who won 3 races.


Well....you are going to have to sit awhile and think about this.....*we are not *talking average speed, or anything else except "Champion Bird"...and that would be all the points earned in all the races flown. 

If like our club, you have 9 races for the YB year, then the max total number of points possible is 900 points. "Champion Bird" would be the bird that earned the most number of points. "Champion Loft" would be the loft that earned the most points. 

If your club has nine or ten YB races, then how would you devise a point system which would determine the Champion Bird over the entire season of races ? 

The whole point of the system is to measure the performance over many different races. So if your racer "Gets in the Clock" and scores high enough on the race sheet to earn points, then you can see the value if you covet say the "Champion Loft" award. 

(If you are starting @ 100 in your club or combine, it works better if there thousands of birds entered into a race- if not, adjust the pts. to start @ say 10pts. I discovered this mathmatical oddity you might be referring to, if you start @100 and have a very small club, whereas it becomes a shipping champion as long as the bird clocks)


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

sky tx said:


> You need to change your system????? The bird with the most points is the Champion.
> How do you figure Champion LOFT?


If thats how they do I'm not gonna think so much of a bird when sombody says it's thier club ace or champion. I looked on win speed in the club computer at last years young bird points for champion bird. One of my birds would have been 3rd if we used those points only 3 points from the top spot. But I wouldn't consider her a bird that should even be close to being called a champion. She just flew all 10 of the races in young birds and racked up a bunch of points.

As for champion loft we don't use that we use average speed. Which I think is a more fair system then the point system. Becasue the same can happen there if you used the 100 point system like stated earlier in the thread you can win 10 out of 10 races and get 1000 points and you can get another guy who comes in 49th and 50th in all the races and he'll have more points. Who should be the champion the loft which never did better then 49th or the loft that won every race?


----------



## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

We are new to pigeons, but the "champion" thing is pretty common. The idea is that there is more to being a champion than winning. It is the consistency of "being near the top" that separates a true champion from the one time winner. So it is better that a bird that is consistently in the top X beats all the birds that only show in the top X a few times. 

Look at it this way: If I race my fast bird only on the 200's and I take tops slot, is that bird better than a bird that makes the top 10 for all the races?

They key is that you need to have enough entered birds to make it hard to get high points. In the tennis world (where I have more experience) placing #1 gets 250, #2 gets 100, #3 gets 50. If you simply win a single match in a tournament you get 10. Using this method allows the kid who wins but never places to be seen as a consistent performer. 

As to champion loft, I think that should be a separate point scale. Since I can pick my "best bird for the distance" I not only need to place well, but I need as many birds to place well as I race. This would make it a high point count game. one point for every bird entered counted in inverse order. If 100 birds are shipped then the max points for the race is 100. The first bird gets 100, the last bird gets 1. Loft with the most wins as the handler "picked the right birds". 

the problem I have with this is that if I am racing for bird, but you are racing for loft, I need to beat you a couple of times. I would think that entering specific categories would be desired to give the new comer a chance. I could enter my bird Joe for champion bird in all the races and my other 10 picked birds for loft series. 1 race, 3 competitions (race, bird, loft). 

Being new, I am not sure how this would all work in the real world though. I am sure my club will straighten me out soon.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Champion bird is the bird that is the most consistant. So your bird won 2 races you better make sure your bird flies all the races and does good or the bird is not a champ and you just have to deal with it.
Dave


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> If thats how they do I'm not gonna think so much of a bird when sombody says it's thier club ace or champion. I looked on win speed in the club computer at last years young bird points for champion bird. One of my birds would have been 3rd if we used those points only 3 points from the top spot. But I wouldn't consider her a bird that should even be close to being called a champion. She just flew all 10 of the races in young birds and racked up a bunch of points.
> 
> As for champion loft we don't use that we use average speed. Which I think is a more fair system then the point system. Becasue the same can happen there if you used the 100 point system like stated earlier in the thread you *can win 10 out of 10 races and get 1000 points and you can get another guy who comes in 49th and 50th in all the races and he'll have more points. Who should be the champion the loft which never did better then 49th or the loft that won every race?*




I think you are confused about the Champion Loft part, because you have to add up the sum of all points earned, by all birds flown by a particular loft. So in theory, a fancier could enter a race in a Combine somewhere and win the first 100 positions in all 10 races. Except that, like our Combine, there is always some outfit which has already thought of that. So the most points anyone could win in any particular race is 297 points or 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, ( 3 bird clocking limit and 20 bird shipping limit) with sometimes thousands of birds competing. We use Champion Loft and Average Speed. Then again, you can't just cherry pick three races you did well in, if there are 10 races, you will have to be in the clock on all ten races. 

The difference is, IMHO, with average speed the outcome of one race, can determine who wins average speed, if you get one of those slow smash races that runs multiple days.

But then, that is why we look at every measurement that the sport and Win Speed offers, and then we issue diplomas on everyone of them. Last year our small club even awarded trophies for Average Speed, Champion Loft, and Champion Bird, in addition to the trophies and diplomas awarded for indiviual races.

There are in addition to these local awards, awards are also calculated on a National level, here is a link to some of the guidelines which the AU has put out. http://www.pigeon.org/awardguidelines.htm

So rather then debate the pro's and con's of one calculation over another on club or combine level races, you can have your results compared to clubs and combines all over the country. Unless you are collecting hundreds of $$$'s from every bird, then the best of something againest mere hundreds of competitiors should always carry a question mark anyhow IMHO. Not like in Europe where you can own the bird that was the fastest out of say 10,000+ pigeons...or 20,000 + in a single race. So, we are left with trying to measure the performance over a series of races.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Champion bird is the bird that is the most consistant. So your bird won 2 races you better make sure your bird flies all the races and does good or the bird is not a champ and you just have to deal with it.
> Dave


I know my bird isn't gonna be the champion bird because we don't have one in my club right now plus there's another guy in my club with a 2 time winner this year aswell. My 2 time winner is actually 4th on the champion bird point list on win speed I have another bird who flew 3 more races then her who is 3rd and the best she came in a race was 4th. I still think my 2 time winner is more deserving of the 3rd place spot then my bird that is there now. But your saying champion bird is the bird who is most consistant coming in first 3 times out of 3 races isn't consistent? But coming in 50th 5 times and 49th once is? Who would you rather have the bird with 3 wins or the one with five 50th places and a 49th? 

I'm trying to get some set of rules together for young bird season but there should be some kind of system that is more fair then this system. There either has to be points for only a small percentage of the birds. I like the point system the Digest uses for their ace bird awards. Where only 5% of the birds get points.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Did you only fly your bird in 2 races, how did it do the rest of the year?
Dave


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think you are confused about the Champion Loft part, because you have to add up the sum of all points earned, by all birds flown by a particular loft. So in theory, a fancier could enter a race in a Combine somewhere and win the first 100 positions in all 10 races. Except that, like our Combine, there is always some outfit which has already thought of that. So the most points anyone could win in any particular race is 297 points or 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, ( 3 bird clocking limit and 20 bird shipping limit) with sometimes thousands of birds competing. We use Champion Loft and Average Speed. Then again, you can't just cherry pick three races you did well in, if there are 10 races, you will have to be in the clock on all ten races.
> 
> ...


I wasn't confused if one loft wins ten out of ten races and only clocks the one bird and another loft only comes in 49th and 50th in every race the guy who came in 49th and 50th would be the champion loft but should that loft really beat the guy who won all ten races? I know that wouldn't happen but it could I'm just throwing out an outlandish event that could possiblly happen. 

I know what your saying about average speed we had the one bad race this year. Where there were only a handful of day birds and they were all spread apart because of the rain they hit on the way home. I ended up an hour behind the winner in that race and he's the one who won average speed. If I was only a half hour closer in that race I would been right there with my lil team. 

But I like your 3 bird clocking limit. If they limited each loft to only the points from their top 3 birds for champion loft purposes then that would give the guys with lil teams of 14 birds a chance against the guys who are putting 30 birds in a a race each week. 

And thats what I like about the AU they have the national database. I wish the IF had somthing like that.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> Did you only fly your bird in 2 races, how did it do the rest of the year?
> Dave


I was using the 3 wins in 3 races getting beat by a bird who only came in 49th one time and 50th five times as somthing that could happen. Where a 3 time winner isn't the champ but a bird who just flew a bunch of races never really doing anything special would ba a champ. Idk how nobody sees my side. Too me the 3 time winner is way more consistant and more competitive then the loser who never topped 49th place. 

As for my bird she flew 5 out of the 8 races I flew she was.
[email protected] 2nd bird to my loft 
[email protected] 1st bird to my loft
[email protected] 1st bird to my loft
[email protected] 1st bird to my loft
[email protected] 1st bird to my loft

My birds really weren't ready for the start of the season so she didn't do so hot in the first 2 races.


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Basically you have to make it to where the point system fits the number of birds entered in the race. If your club typically ships 1000 birds make it a 50 point system, thats the top 5% of the birds in the race. If your club only ships 100 birds maybe make it only a 5 point system. Then you will see the most consistent birds. For me if there are 10 races and a bird places top 50 in each race with over 1000 birds competing then yes I will take that bird over a bird that wins 2 or 3 races of the ten, and then clocks in 800+ places in a couple others and then doesn't even show up on the last race. Basically that tells me the 2 or 3 wins were flukes, that the loft had an advantage due to wind/location/weather and that the bird was a good trapper but not a good racer. Where as the Champion bird clocked top 5% each race no matter the conditions even though it never quite won a race. Just how I see it.


----------



## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

Winspeed takes care of tabulating Champion Bird/Champion Loft.

The club/secretary can decide the starting base points for 1,2,3,...
and what percentage of birds in the race get points.

Example 1, 10% of the birds entered in a race will be awarded points.
For a 100 mile race, award 100 pts to 1st bird, 200mile - 150pts, 300mile - 200pts, etc...

Example 2, all returning birds awarded points until the points are gone.
Use the first race to determine the base points for 1st place (e.g. 3000 birds entered in 100mile race, 300 pts to 1st bird in every subsequent race).

George Rankin also had a very good rating system...

In my opinion, whatever points system is used - Ace pigeon should have to fly every race to qualify for Ace pigeon as they do in Germany !!!


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Basically you have to make it to where the point system fits the number of birds entered in the race. If your club typically ships 1000 birds make it a 50 point system, thats the top 5% of the birds in the race. If your club only ships 100 birds maybe make it only a 5 point system. Then you will see the most consistent birds. For me if there are 10 races and a bird places top 50 in each race with over 1000 birds competing then yes I will take that bird over a bird that wins 2 or 3 races of the ten, and then clocks in 800+ places in a couple others and then doesn't even show up on the last race. Basically that tells me the 2 or 3 wins were flukes, that the loft had an advantage due to wind/location/weather and that the bird was a good trapper but not a good racer. Where as the Champion bird clocked top 5% each race no matter the conditions even though it never quite won a race. Just how I see it.


If you get one of these flukes that flys 10 races and wins three of them and comes in 800th in the rest send then my way. I'd be happy to breed out of it. How many birds even come close to winning 3 races? I hear all about these flukes when would a win not be cosidered a fluke? When you race do you fly to win or to come in the top 5%?


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well to be honest that depends on the goal of the fancier. I have had birds win 3 or 4 races and then the next year you lose them on the first race. Me personally, my goal is to win Champion Loft and Average Speed categories. You can do that without ever winning a race and just being consistent. To me a win thats not considered a fluke would be winning out of turn. When all the odds are against you it can't be a fluke. Winds are blowing towards a different Concourse or Federation section, no way you should win that race, but if and when you do it can't be a fluke, that bird had to orientate and be in tip top condition as well as motivated by the fancier. Something else I can think of, what if you happen to have a really good bird that for one reason or the other just isn't a good trapper. Maybe it comes in the top 20 by 2 or 3 minutes, but it was sitting on the loft for 10? That doesn't make it a bad bird, just may make it head strong which I happen to like, or maybe you as a fancier needs to improve on your training methods. Now would you rather breed out of that bird, or the bird that won 2 or 3 blow homes and was never seen on the front page of the race sheet again? I will take the bad trapper any day of the week, just my preference though.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> .......
> As for my bird she flew 5 out of the 8 races I flew she was.
> [email protected] 2nd bird to my loft
> [email protected] 1st bird to my loft
> ...


 If you were flying for best average speed, then this bird would not qualify, since it only flew in five races. A bird which completed all 8 races would score better. Takes a whole different kind of pigeon to complete say 8 different race events, and be in the clock in every race. Your bird did real well in three of the races, and then he either lost his steam or was AWOL, or was just not up for the three other races. Lack of condition, due to management or breeding, hard to say. Certainly a keeper, interesting to see how the bird does later in it's racing career.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Well to be honest that depends on the goal of the fancier. I have had birds win 3 or 4 races and then the next year you lose them on the first race. Me personally, my goal is to win Champion Loft and Average Speed categories. You can do that without ever winning a race and just being consistent. To me a win thats not considered a fluke would be winning out of turn. When all the odds are against you it can't be a fluke. Winds are blowing towards a different Concourse or Federation section, no way you should win that race, but if and when you do it can't be a fluke, that bird had to orientate and be in tip top condition as well as motivated by the fancier. Something else I can think of, what if you happen to have a really good bird that for one reason or the other just isn't a good trapper. Maybe it comes in the top 20 by 2 or 3 minutes, but it was sitting on the loft for 10? That doesn't make it a bad bird, just may make it head strong which I happen to like, or maybe you as a fancier needs to improve on your training methods. Now would you rather breed out of that bird, or the bird that won 2 or 3 blow homes and was never seen on the front page of the race sheet again? I will take the bad trapper any day of the week, just my preference though.


So by your standards my win this week must not have been a fluke we had 15 to 25 mph cross winds. The winds were coming from the south and I'm on the south side compaired to most of the lofts. Plus she followed my dropper into the tree and sat there for 2 to 3 mins and still won by 7 and a half mins. But just because the bird doesn't come home doesn't mean that the bird was a bad bird you never know what happend the the bird. He it coulda hit a wire got hit by a hawk or even banged wings with another bird on release and hurt himself bad enough he couldn't make it. I'd breed out of both because the won 2 or 3 races. And they other one would have been right up there if it went in the coop. I've had plenty of them guys that come home in good time and couldn't clock. Mostly b4 I had the electronic clock because I think I'd spook them pulling the counter marker off and they would become clock shy. Now with the ECS you don't have to grab them and they don't get clock shy. Idk what happend this week I lost 2 to 3 mins on my winner becasue she followed the dropper up in the tree. Then my second bird came home 6 mins after she clocked and took 11 mins to get in she went up in the tree as well and I threw a stick up there ans she flew around for a while b4 coming down with my 3rd bird and clocking. She would have been second.


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Yeah, I would take this last race performance over the 2200+ypm race she had earlier in the season, but thats just my preference like I said before I don't really like the blow home races. Why did the dropper go up in the tree? I have never used droppers myself so I don't know all the intricacies of managing them but man that sure would make me angry considering thats the only job it has to do.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If you were flying for best average speed, then this bird would not qualify, since it only flew in five races. A bird which completed all 8 races would score better. Takes a whole different kind of pigeon to complete say 8 different race events, and be in the clock in every race. Your bird did real well in three of the races, and then he either lost his steam or was AWOL, or was just not up for the three other races. Lack of condition, due to management or breeding, hard to say. Certainly a keeper, interesting to see how the bird does later in it's racing career.


She along with my other 13 birds on my team weren't ready for the start of the season I resettled the old birds in another coop only 3 weeks b4 the races started. So I was way behind in my training program. I was even debating on if I should actually fly this season because I was so far behind. 

Idk if she's gonna fly next season depends if I have a bunch of this years young bird left for a nice old bird team I'll retire her for breeding. Her mother was a good flyer for another flyer coming in 2nd once and the half brother of my winning hen same mother came in 3rd last year in young birds less then 10 seconds from winning. So her blood seams to do good for me. I'd rather have her babies flying for me then have somthing happen to her. 

The mother is a 2007 she's only been breeding 2 years and she's raised 2 good birds for me already with 2 dif cocks and her babies on this years young bird team look like champs I'll see what happens. But I think I have a good foundation now to raise me my champs of the future.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> Yeah, I would take this last race performance over the 2200+ypm race she had earlier in the season, but thats just my preference like I said before I don't really like the blow home races. Why did the dropper go up in the tree? I have never used droppers myself so I don't know all the intricacies of managing them but man that sure would make me angry considering thats the only job it has to do.


I called it a dropper but it really isn't a dropper. I put a cage on the board with a bird in it with stick with a string on it holding the door closed. I pull the string and the bird comes out and is suposed to come out to eat some feed from the lil pile I place in front of the bucks. But the bird I nomally use was out because my dad let the birds out in the morning and I couldn't get him in. So I used a bird from my race team that broke a few tips so I had to stop racing her. But my bird was diving in I pulled the string the dropper bird was walking to the feed and she got spooked by the race bird as she was about to land the dropper took off and went up in the tree and the race bird followed. I have some real droppers some baldies and german owls and satinetts but they live in the other coop with I'll have them trained for young bird season. So I don't have this happen again. My dad was yelling at me saying I lost the race. I was hoping that we were 10 mins late so that 2 or 3 mins didn't mean anything. But we were 10 mins ahead so that 2 or 3 mins still didn't mean anything. My dad likes to blame me for the bad stuff and loves to take credit for all the good stuff. It was his fault that I didn't have the right bird in the cage. I do everything with the birds now, but he tells everybody he does. He was a good flyer back in his day. He won 10 races in a few years in the late 70's. B4 I was born but he didn't win a race for 20 years until I got into it and won my first race and I did it good I topped the combine of over 2000 birds with 2 birds. 1st, 2nd, and 11th and I only had 9 birds that year.


----------



## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

54 th place, 47 place, an hr behind, blame it on the rain. Either the bird was not in shape or you didn't have enough faith in her to send her in all the races. This year she is not a champ, better luck next year. I have a champion hen she won 1 race and was in the top 10, not 10 % for all 11 weeks, that is a champion bird. I just hope she breeds as good as she flies.
Dave


----------



## Xueoo (Nov 20, 2009)

I think with this type of race there is no real truth to who is the top bird in a season without ALL birds racing the full season's races. The point system is set up for the bird who is consistant in all the races, not one who wins 5 races, then held back. 

Even if all birds raced the full season, what does determine the "best"? Most consistant? Most wins? Personally, I would say the bird who wins 5 times and places 60th the other 5 times is better than one who places 20th in all 10 races. I believe, on paper, the 20th finisher is the better bird. 

For simplicity sake, I think you have to make it so all birds race the full season and average it out, or, add up the points for "best". Otherwise, you get too many variables.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*In year 2000 the combine that my birds flew in used a system that gave points to only the top 5% of the birds in the race.This was done because we were shipping 1300-1500 birds per race, I had a bird that won champion bird in that combine with atotal of 643 points,in 5 races. The brakdown of these races is 1345 birds she was 55th,1525 birds-13th,1384-11th,1330-26th,1235 -25th. This hen scored more points then birds that won and did not score again in the top 5%, in the 12 old bird races that year. She was very consistant there was only one other bird that scored 5 times and there were 50 birds that were in the running for champion bird.The point here is winning in a club race with 200 or so birds is realy not the same as being consistant against 1300- 1500 birds. *GEORGE


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> 54 th place, 47 place, an hr behind, blame it on the rain. Either the bird was not in shape or you didn't have enough faith in her to send her in all the races. This year she is not a champ, better luck next year. I have a champion hen she won 1 race and was in the top 10, not 10 % for all 11 weeks, that is a champion bird. I just hope she breeds as good as she flies.
> Dave


What is it with you? You keep saying my bird isn't the champ I already said I know she isn't a champ my club had 2 birds that I would say are better and another bird of mine that the points say is better then her when she really isn't. I've also said my club doesn't have a champ bird but I'm trying to put it together for young birds but you keep going back trying to put my bird down for whatever reason. She didn't fly the race I was talking about where my first bird was an hour behind and came in 9th in the race and it was because the weather alot of birds never made it home from that race. And it was my fault she wasn't ready for the first 2 races of the season where she came in 47th and 54th. And I already wrote the reason in another post. I don't care what anybody says not to many birds ever win a race let alone 2 races it's whole life let alone in a season. Congrats on your Champion.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

george simon said:


> *In year 2000 the combine that my birds flew in used a system that gave points to only the top 5% of the birds in the race.This was done because we were shipping 1300-1500 birds per race, I had a bird that won champion bird in that combine with atotal of 643 points,in 5 races. The brakdown of these races is 1345 birds she was 55th,1525 birds-13th,1384-11th,1330-26th,1235 -25th. This hen scored more points then birds that won and did not score again in the top 5%, in the 12 old bird races that year. She was very consistant there was only one other bird that scored 5 times and there were 50 birds that were in the running for champion bird.The point here is winning in a club race with 200 or so birds is realy not the same as being consistant against 1300- 1500 birds. *GEORGE


Thats a good bird. I like the top 5% getting points. But how are the points setup are there more points for longer races then there are for short races?


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Xueoo said:


> I think with this type of race there is no real truth to who is the top bird in a season without ALL birds racing the full season's races. The point system is set up for the bird who is consistant in all the races, not one who wins 5 races, then held back.
> 
> Even if all birds raced the full season, what does determine the "best"? Most consistant? Most wins? Personally, I would say the bird who wins 5 times and places 60th the other 5 times is better than one who places 20th in all 10 races. I believe, on paper, the 20th finisher is the better bird.
> 
> For simplicity sake, I think you have to make it so all birds race the full season and average it out, or, add up the points for "best". Otherwise, you get too many variables.


The thing with a bird having to fly all the races really wouldn't work here. We have futurity races, which are held in different clubs, on the same weekend as club races for 6 out of the 10 weekends in young birds. So you have to put your birds in the money races. Plus in young birds the combine truck is to capacity so they are talking about making it a 15 bird limit. How are you suposed to have a bird fly every club/combine race when most ppl have 10 to 15 birds for each of the 6 futurity races. You have to change what birds you put in each week just to get them all in races so they'll be ready for the futurity race they are banded for.


----------



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Xueoo said:


> I think with this type of race there is no real truth to who is the top bird in a season without ALL birds racing the full season's races. The point system is set up for the bird who is consistant in all the races, not one who wins 5 races, then held back.
> 
> Even if all birds raced the full season, what does determine the "best"? Most consistant? Most wins? Personally, I would say the bird who wins 5 times and places 60th the other 5 times is better than one who places 20th in all 10 races. I believe, on paper, the 20th finisher is the better bird.
> 
> For simplicity sake, I think you have to make it so all birds race the full season and average it out, or, add up the points for "best". Otherwise, you get too many variables.


*First stop and think,flying birds in old birds where the combine and clubs in that combine fly 12 races.Do you have any idea how many miles the bird would be required to fly!!! Well in the combine that my birds flew if I was to fly a bird in every race that would equial 3771.806 miles there were lofts on the long end that would have birds that fly 4200 miles.In my book anyone that would send a bird to all the races is not a good pigeon man. Lets take the last two races in the combine that my birds flew in, the last two races were 500 and 550 miles.Now think, birds that you would ship to the next race would only have 3 to 3and a half days to get in condishion, because shipplng is thurday night now the bird spends a day and a half on the truck.That is why there are many birds lost they are tired and burned out. Racing short races is not the same as racing the long ones, it takes a different type of race bird and a different type of handling those birds for the long races. By the way the combine that I was in was the SAN DIEGO COUNTY COMBINE the years that I was with them there were 55-65 members *GEORGE


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

What George says is true in a lot of places. Luckily, the combine I flew in was pretty small, I would say a max of 25 members and we were all pretty flexible with schedules, we could ship early Friday afternoon in order to get a Saturday morning release even on our 600 mile races, thats just about unheard of. Also the way that our schedule was we would go 100, 135, 185, 200, 300, 400, 500, 100, 185, 600. Usually Memorial Day weekend would fall between the 500 and 2nd 100 mile race giving the birds a week off and it would be possible for the birds to fly each of the ten races. For me, a bird to fly each of those races would end up flying right at 2,718 miles. Certainly not an easy feat but it could be accomplished.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Matt Bell said:


> What George says is true in a lot of places. Luckily, the combine I flew in was pretty small, I would say a max of 25 members and we were all pretty flexible with schedules, we could ship early Friday afternoon in order to get a Saturday morning release even on our 600 mile races, thats just about unheard of. Also the way that our schedule was we would go 100, 135, 185, 200, 300, 400, 500, 100, 185, 600. Usually Memorial Day weekend would fall between the 500 and 2nd 100 mile race giving the birds a week off and it would be possible for the birds to fly each of the ten races. For me, a bird to fly each of those races would end up flying right at 2,718 miles. Certainly not an easy feat but it could be accomplished.


My combine has close to 100 flyers in old birds and around 150 in young birds. But I was thinking the same as George a guy who would ship a bird to every race in old birds is not a good pigeon person maybe in your combine it wouldn't be so bad your birds have a bunch of short races and a good gap between the 500 and 600 with those 2 short races in between. My combine aint like that we have it set up like this. 150, 150, 250, 250, 300, 300, 250, 400, 250, 500 for me the total distance for all the races is 2876 miles. Like it said it could be done by why beat a bird like that?


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Why don't you guys fly a 600?


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Idk as long as I've been going to club with my dad as a lil kid I don't ever remember them having a 600 mile club/combine race. The do have a 600 mile derby race though.


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I called it a dropper but it really isn't a dropper. I put a cage on the board with a bird in it with stick with a string on it holding the door closed. I pull the string and the bird comes out and is suposed to come out to eat some feed from the lil pile I place in front of the bucks. But the bird I nomally use was out because my dad let the birds out in the morning and I couldn't get him in. So I used a bird from my race team that broke a few tips so I had to stop racing her. But my bird was diving in I pulled the string the dropper bird was walking to the feed and she got spooked by the race bird as she was about to land the dropper took off and went up in the tree and the race bird followed. I have some real droppers some baldies and german owls and satinetts but they live in the other coop with I'll have them trained for young bird season. So I don't have this happen again. My dad was yelling at me saying I lost the race. I was hoping that we were 10 mins late so that 2 or 3 mins didn't mean anything. But we were 10 mins ahead so that 2 or 3 mins still didn't mean anything. My dad likes to blame me for the bad stuff and loves to take credit for all the good stuff. It was his fault that I didn't have the right bird in the cage. I do everything with the birds now, but he tells everybody he does. He was a good flyer back in his day. He won 10 races in a few years in the late 70's. B4 I was born but he didn't win a race for 20 years until I got into it and won my first race and I did it good I topped the combine of over 2000 birds with 2 birds. 1st, 2nd, and 11th and I only had 9 birds that year.


Well the 2 to 3 mins didn't make a difference in the club but when I seen the combine sheet I was pissed. She ended up 20th in the combine out of 1500 birds less then 2 mins from topping the combine so that time up in the tree did make a difference. There's nothing worse then knowing you could have won if only the bird went in like she normally does. But there still was a good point looking at the combine sheet even in 20th place there wasn't a bird on the south side that beat her. With the cross winds blowing them up to the north there wasn't a bird who's loft is less then 5 miles north of me who beat her on the sheet even after losing all that time. I was pissed for a lil while but I got over it and looked at the bright side I know what the bird is capable of doing and that all that matters to me. But it still sucks thinking I coulda had my 4th combine winner first one in old birds.


----------



## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Pigeon0446 said:


> If thats how they do I'm not gonna think so much of a bird when sombody says it's thier club ace or champion. I looked on win speed in the club computer at last years young bird points for champion bird. One of my birds would have been 3rd if we used those points only 3 points from the top spot. But I wouldn't consider her a bird that should even be close to being called a champion. She just flew all 10 of the races in young birds and racked up a bunch of points.
> 
> As for champion loft we don't use that we use average speed. Which I think is a more fair system then the point system. Becasue the same can happen there if you used the 100 point system like stated earlier in the thread you can win 10 out of 10 races and get 1000 points and you can get another guy who comes in 49th and 50th in all the races and he'll have more points. Who should be the champion the loft which never did better then 49th or the loft that won every race?


If I were you I would take the wins and forget about the Ace Bird or Champion Bird awards...now I know that would be very nice to win and to have bestowed upon your birds but I myself have had a few birds getting up there in the points and when the birds should of probably been resting they were racing and the end results were not so good in my case....the only time we won Champion Bird is when we let it happen naturally only due to we were not paying any attention to the point standings...we just sent her when she was ready to race and it worked out naturally...she won the last race of the year to win by 7 points...to me your birds 1st place finishes are alot better than a Champion Bird with no wins...I think a Champion Bird thing for your club would be good but as a handler I have come to learn not to put to much emphasis on it...it could cost you a good bird if your not careful


----------



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Airbaby said:


> If I were you I would take the wins and forget about the Ace Bird or Champion Bird awards...now I know that would be very nice to win and to have bestowed upon your birds but I myself have had a few birds getting up there in the points and when the birds should of probably been resting they were racing and the end results were not so good in my case....the only time we won Champion Bird is when we let it happen naturally only due to we were not paying any attention to the point standings...we just sent her when she was ready to race and it worked out naturally...she won the last race of the year to win by 7 points...to me your birds 1st place finishes are alot better than a Champion Bird with no wins...I think a Champion Bird thing for your club would be good but as a handler I have come to learn not to put to much emphasis on it...it could cost you a good bird if your not careful


I wasn't paying any attention to it until she won her second race last weekend. But I didn't ship the 500 mile race this weekend I figured I'd save my lil team for next year. I never seam to do to good in the 500 and I always seam to lose the one bird I like but I like all 9 birds left of my team to much to take a chance of losing any of them. I see those long races as races to cull the birds you don't want and if they come home they deserve to be here. And I don't want to cull any of the old birds I have left. So they have 8 months or so off b4 it all starts again for those old birds.


----------

