# You Can't Trust Them All!



## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

As some of you may know, about six weeks ago I sent *Lefty1991* a pair of young birds. He was asked only to pay $35.00 for the shipping of the birds. He has said he is sending it several times, but it never comes. I just wanted to make sure no one else is sending him birds and trusting him to pay them back for the shipping or for the birds. Until you hear from me that he has paid me for the shipping of these birds please do not send this person any of your birds!

Ace


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

wow , that is disturbing to hear, hopefully, he just misspelled your address or something to that nature.

I m sorry. Nell


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

corvid said:


> hopefully, he just misspelled your address or something to that nature.



I wish that was the case, but I have given him my address several times, plus it is on the bird box I sent him. We were PMing back and forth two weeks ago and he was saying he wanted more birds and would just send me $70.00. That never came and he has not responded to my recent PMs. 

This is just the kind of thing that hurts the other new fliers that are looking for help getting started. I will not send anyone birds without everything being paid for up front from now on. 

Ace


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I also PMed Lefty to ask him how he liked the birds and he never responded. I also was going to send him pedigrees as the birds were off of Hillfamily birds. I know he is just a kid, but if he would have explained his situation of not having money etc, we would still have most likely helped him out. So far my dealings with people have been pretty good. I like helping people out etc. Lefty needs to keep in mind that the "Ed" the grandsire of his birds is off a bird my mentor spent $1500 dollars for. It is hard to put a value on those free birds, but I know that what my mentor gave me, I was very gratious to receive. He has helped me greatly. In return, I pay his AU dues and buy his bands for him. Lefty needs to learn that favors are much sweeter when returned. Like they always say, "Fool me once" shame on you, "Fool me twice, shame on me". 

I do not think ACE is sending any more birds Lefty's way. A man with integrity is much more valuable as a friend than a con man. I would not feel very satisfied winning with a bird that I stole from someone. I guess some people were just not raised right. 

Randy


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

maaan, thats shocking....:,, i wonder i didnt hear any updates on the birds....will you shoudn't send birds to anybody without sending you shipping fees first or payments.... remember i did ask you with those birds....


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I am very sorry to hear that! Did someone takes advantage of your generosity? I hate when people do that. I supposed you learned a lesson here.

But please remember that there are still other nice people here. I hope this issue with that guy is resolve. Still be cautious obviously.

This lefty is making us look bad (internet forum guys).


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

That's pretty wrong. But you can't label anyone without knowing the full story. ACE is right in his case, 2-3 weeks is good enough time to send $35 i believe? When i look at it, it's not the $35 i would be worried about, its losing someones trust. ACE has his point, now let me just put in a bit about the other guy. (Planning on being a criminal defense lawyer or somewhere along that line, so this can be good practice lol). Being 15 myself, don't know how old the other guy/girl is but someone said young so i'm guessing around my age. There are a lot of factors about not having money....school, clothes...trust me if its a girl....haha...if its a guy...there might be a girl? Trust me about this too. And doing the same, a lot of young guys party hard...too hard sometimes if you ask me. So all those 3-4 points are all money eaters. Now if i were this guy, i would have set out the $35 before doing anything else. My dad says, never borrow money, but don't hesitate to give. Borrowing is ok, if you have the intentions of paying back. So i took both ACE's and the other persons side. Give both of their point of views. But i'm with ACE on this one, if you get pigeons from someone either make it clear you won't be paying, make it clear when you will and how much, and any issues you have. My mentor, Ernie Silveri, awesome roller breeder, and amazing guy gave me 20 top performing rollers. My first words to him "Hi Ernie, my name is Gurbir and i've been having troubles with my pigeons. I lost a whole lost last year and now i'm down to only 7 birds." His reply "Hi there  Come by and pick up some birds." Some birds equaled to 20 pedigree rollers. Awesome rollers. Like if you just ask the person politely you are sure to get something out of it. Now i have a pretty strong friendship with Ernie, and i go regularly to his lofts and help him out. ACE i'm with you one this one. Sorry for the long essay style post but this is what you get when you're tired from studying for a science test tomorrow and are dying to do something else


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Life is about choices and the thing that most young people don't understand is that the choices you make have long lasting and sometimes permenant ramifications. What Lefty needs to understand is that his choice in this may very well have cost him his reputation in this community for good. Tough lesson to learn but we were all there once.

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

This is sad, but it happened to me too way back in 2002 with another member here who's no longer a member. 
I had a bird that was mentally challenged, that's the only way I know to describe it..................I expect most fanciers would have just done away with the bird, but since we don't play that game, I found a home. Shipped the bird and still to this day have never gotten the money. I realize that my situation and yours is totally different. The birds you sent were probably worth a lot more than more as far as a $ value, but still...........
Then a couple of years ago, I rescued some birds, but needed to find homes for them. Another member here agreed to take them. Again, I sent them and this was a box of 6 birds, without getting the money first. Hubby was a little perturbed about the whole situation, but the member DID send me the money and had done so twice since then.
I've also sent birds to members here, only to find out later that the birds "escaped" or were just turned loose because that person either did something stupid or just changed their mind. Most of those birds, except the two that flew back to me, probably died a slow death by starvation.
My husband has built two lofts for two different people. I raised birds for them and gave them to the new flyers. Right now, neither of those flyers participate in racing their birds.
So the stories go..................just have to live and learn I guess. 
Sorry it happened to you too..........at least we've all been forewarned.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about this Ace. I guess that is why most people don't ship until they receive the cost of shipping from the buyer. I probably would have done the same thing as you did, as I always give people the benefit of the doubt. I certainly hope that Lefty1991 has a re-examination of conscience and that he sends the money that is owed for shipping.

Thank you for letting everyone know and God Bless you for your kindness and compassion and being trusting, hopefully in time Lefty1991 will also do what is right! I will say a prayer for that intention.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> As some of you may know, about six weeks ago I sent Lefty1991 a pair of young birds. He was asked only to pay $35.00 for the shipping of the birds. He has said he is sending it several times, but it never comes. I just wanted to make sure no one else is sending him birds and trusting him to pay them back for the shipping or for the birds. Until you hear from me that he has paid me for the shipping of these birds please do not send this person any of your birds!
> 
> Ace


well this does not take away the fact of your generosity and being a nice person...you did a nice thing no matter how the other half acted....Im Impressed. and I hope you are still happy with your choice to do a nice thing.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

Im sorry you are going through this.
I was told by my dad at a young age that if a man isnt a man of his word hes not a man at all.
I try to live my life by those words.
hopefully the kid smartens up and does the right thing.
I was also told by him that we all pay for the bad choices we make in life at one time or another.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I think it's dutiful to send the money as soon as possible. A friend of mine sent me some really nice birds from Hawaii and those birds are worth at least $1000 for no charge, so I sent out a check to him the day I received them.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

StoN3d said:


> Im sorry you are going through this.
> I was told by my dad at a young age that if a man isnt a man of his word hes not a man at all.
> I try to live my life by those words.
> hopefully the kid smartens up and does the right thing.
> I was also told by him that we all pay for the bad choices we make in life at one time or another.


sounds like you have a great Daddy!


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> sounds like you have a great Daddy!


yes 
the bestest in the whole world!


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

ace in the hole said:


> As some of you may know, about six weeks ago I sent *Lefty1991* a pair of young birds. He was asked only to pay $35.00 for the shipping of the birds. He has said he is sending it several times, but it never comes. I just wanted to make sure no one else is sending him birds and trusting him to pay them back for the shipping or for the birds. Until you hear from me that he has paid me for the shipping of these birds please do not send this person any of your birds!
> 
> Ace


So he (lefty1991) is a scam artist  huh...Well, I got his addy, fone#, if you want to send/call him or anything...He did asked me for Belgium Bobs which I was delayed sending it to him but I did it anyway...Then I've been asking him to show me the loft he said he have or even post it here but NEVER did...The postage didn't really cost that much but come on, I hope this KID stop being nice in the beginning and rip people off...All I can say is "hey if they want to communicate with you, let them provide their phone 1st, speak to them, get to know their motives then send them what they want"...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear this Ace. I hate it when things like this happen.
Yes Gurbir, he is young just like us. But young or old, you should be responsible enough to pay for the things you get. If you can't afford them, don't take them. Being young isn't a good enough excuse for what Ace said he's done. The least this boy could do is reply to his PM's explaining why he hasn't sent the money yet, if there's a reason. I don't understand why a person would want to take advantage of another like this, especially when getting the birds in the first place can be considered a priviledge.


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## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

This is just an idea but maybe there should be a category of scam artist? Just a suggestion but I guess you will be asked to provide proof? Just my two cents.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Pegasus said:


> So he (lefty1991) is a scam artist  huh...Well, I got his addy, fone#, if you want to send/call him or anything...He did asked me for Belgium Bobs which I was delayed sending it to him but I did it anyway...Then I've been asking him to show me the loft he said he have or even post it here but NEVER did...The postage didn't really cost that much but come on, I hope this KID stop being nice in the beginning and rip people off...All I can say is "hey if they want to communicate with you, let them provide their phone 1st, speak to them, get to know their motives then send them what they want"...



That is the reason I started this thread. I was afraid he may be doing the same to others on here and I did not want to wait any longer. I did let him know that I do come to Florida every winter and would be stopping in to see him. I do have his address and phone #. 

Ace


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> So he (lefty1991) is a scam artist  huh...Well, I got his addy, fone#, if you want to send/call him or anything...He did asked me for Belgium Bobs which I was delayed sending it to him but I did it anyway...*Then I've been asking him to show me the loft he said he have or even post it here but NEVER did*...The postage didn't really cost that much but come on, I hope this KID stop being nice in the beginning and rip people off...All I can say is "hey if they want to communicate with you, let them provide their phone 1st, speak to them, get to know their motives then send them what they want"...


I'm going to play devils advocate here for a minute........this kid was only 16 years old. Did ANY of you ever talk to his parents? Ask them if it's ok to send the birds? Did his parents know he's giving out his address and phone number to strangers he met on the internet? Something to think about. I've given birds to a few kids over the years, but I always got thier parents approval......actually talked to them either by phone or in person. What he did was wrong. No denying that, but as adults, dealing with children, WE have to be somewhat responsible too. Just my two cents worth. And, if he's not sending the money for what he's supposed to.......I'd be calling the parents and informing them of what he did. Either they will make him pay up, or they'll tell you to get lost and stop bothering their kid, which will tell you why he did what he did in the first place. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=308093&postcount=7

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=309345&postcount=10

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=309349&postcount=12

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=314802&postcount=35


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have called several times. His mother only speeks Spanish. I do Not. If there is someone here that speeks Spanish and would like to make that call for me please PM me and we will set it up for you to talk to her on a land line wile I am on a cell with you.

Ace


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

We learn sometimes the hard way. This kid did not have the money for shipping BUT still wanted the birds Or he thought he could get the money. May never know But Ace has learned a lesson we all learn in life. Perhap I hope the kid feels bad And can not face what has been done. I have and many others have let people get birds on faith of paying and not get payed. I got mad But later just forgave. Might be time to be glad it was not alot of money. And take it as a lesson. BUt do not stop trusting those others that will come along . Life is short And perhaps when he does find away to pay the shipping he will send the money. Maybe I see different things in people But Many youth do not have money but want things And Its good to have helped even though you ended up paying out of pocket.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

re lee said:


> We learn sometimes the hard way. "This kid". "Perhap I hope the kid feels bad" . "But Many youth do not have money but want things".


At this point this thread is not all about the few dollars I lost. It is more to make sure he was not doing the same to others on here. 

The other point I would like to bring up here is that everyone seams to think that because *Lefty1991 *says he is 16 years old, he is!!! Remember, you can be who ever you want to be on the internet. Sex afenders are cought every day by someone saying they are 14, 15 or 16 years old.

Ace


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

True. If i was him i would have just informed you from the start, that i can't pay you now but i will later. I never gamble when selling pigeons. None of my pigeons leave my loft until the money is in my hand. Unless i'm giving them away for free. ACE the best you can hope for is that this guy mans up and talks to you, by phone, PM, email what ever. If he can't do this to you might wanna arange someone, my age maybe? to talk to him since he'll feel more comfortable. Like if he has msn or something. Ummm other than that I'd hate to be him. Sooner or later he's gonna need help with his pigeons. He's gonna have to come back here unless he just drops the pigeon hobby or finds someone else to get help from. I heard this pigeon was a really good one? Grand daughter of some really good pigeon? Sorry if i'm not correct, to tired to go back and check  Anyways i hope everything works out.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

wonder what lefty was thinking when he/she got the bird you send? hope she get in touch with you Ace or post here so we know why he/she did not send you the shipping expenses. I am also a beginner on this sports and feel bad of what lefty have done to you Ace. things like this make old timers on this sport think twice before helping a beginners. to be honest i like to have that birds you sent lefty. but the thing is I did not have the budget to pay for the shipping that time that's why I did not said anything to you. if ever i will make a transaction with someone here i will make sure to send them the shipping expenses first before i ask them to ship the birds to me. well hope lefty has been reading the post here and hope she/he speak out.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Why don't you contact the club he is joining or has joined and let them know the situation. Would that be a good idea of maybe getting a hold of him?

http://www.schepigeonclub.com/


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Grim said:


> Why don't you contact the club he is joining or has joined and let them know the situation.
> http://www.schepigeonclub.com/


I was just looking at the thread *Whitesnmore *has on the birds he is giving to beginners. He says he is just waiting for verification from the persons club race sec.. This is a good idea! From now on any beginner I help with birds I will talk to thier club race sec. to make sure they are who they say they are and that they are a beginner in this sport. 

Thank you all for responding to this thread. I am just glad more of you were not taken by this person. Again, If or when he does pay the shipping for these birds I will post it here to let you know. 

Ace


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*I Totally Agree With Every1...*

Just be aware my friends in Pigeon-Talk, for me I dont mind as long as its not going to cost me over $20, I can deal with it...I know regardless of the circumstances its not right to do things like this...




Lovebirds said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate here for a minute........this kid was only 16 years old. Did ANY of you ever talk to his parents? Ask them if it's ok to send the birds? Did his parents know he's giving out his address and phone number to strangers he met on the internet?


I'm pretty sure his parents don't want him to give out any personal info...here's something to make you guys smile a bit from my humour...
(get the pitch fork and sticks  grab some stones too) LOL Im kidding...I know this stressed everybody out...If he do come back and talk to us for me, he is forgiven... I feel great that I looked out for someone or some good guys in here who's in NEED or need something that I have...


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## lefty1991 (Jan 23, 2008)

*ace did what he had to do*

i apologize for the event that has happened with ace (mark raymond)and the two birds that he sent me.i already sent ap.m to ace and explained to him and even gave him my cell phone number.i have been going trough some hard times these couple of weeks.i am currently moving going to school and working almost everyday afterschool to help my mom and dad pay for our house which is going through foreclosure.i moved to a apartment which is still part of my house but had to renovate everything, i still live with my parents so i still have my pigeons.i know i have acted irresponsibly and ace had every right to do what he did and iwould have done the same.i already sent the payment today and will be sending the other 35 dollars later on this week.by the way i really am 16 turning 17 the 26th of this month and i attend miami coral park senior high school.another pegasus said he sent me some bobs and said i did not post any pics and i did post them.i hope everyone understands me and no i am no scam artist i was just going through some hard times.i will be able to log in everyday as i do not have online acess available at home anymore.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Guess who was right...ME  lol. I make a good lawyer if i do say so myself. Any who its good everything worked out fine. Some of the nicest people in the world are people that keep pigeons. Just happy that everything worked out well


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

lefty1991 said:


> i apologize for the event that has happened with ace (mark raymond)and the two birds that he sent me.i already sent ap.m to ace and explained to him and even gave him my cell phone number.i have been going trough some hard times these couple of weeks.i am currently moving going to school and working almost everyday afterschool to help my mom and dad pay for our house which is going through foreclosure.i moved to a apartment which is still part of my house but had to renovate everything, i still live with my parents so i still have my pigeons.i know i have acted irresponsibly and ace had every right to do what he did and iwould have done the same.i already sent the payment today and will be sending the other 35 dollars later on this week.by the way i really am 16 turning 17 the 26th of this month and i attend miami coral park senior high school.another pegasus said he sent me some bobs and said i did not post any pics and i did post them.i hope everyone understands me and no i am no scam artist i was just going through some hard times.i will be able to log in everyday as i do not have online acess available at home anymore.


Thanks for coming forward And explaining things NOT just to Ace But the whole group on this site. You may be 16 But you acted like a man doing this And i am glad you not only are sending Ace his money But am glad you explained. I hope you can get things straight at home With all that is going on in your life. and enjoy your birds.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

lefty1991 said:


> i apologize for the event that has happened with ace (mark raymond)and the two birds that he sent me.i already sent ap.m to ace and explained to him and even gave him my cell phone number.i have been going trough some hard times these couple of weeks.i am currently moving going to school and working almost everyday afterschool to help my mom and dad pay for our house which is going through foreclosure.i moved to a apartment which is still part of my house but had to renovate everything, i still live with my parents so i still have my pigeons.i know i have acted irresponsibly and ace had every right to do what he did and iwould have done the same.i already sent the payment today and will be sending the other 35 dollars later on this week.by the way i really am 16 turning 17 the 26th of this month and i attend miami coral park senior high school.another pegasus said he sent me some bobs and said i did not post any pics and i did post them.i hope everyone understands me and no i am no scam artist i was just going through some hard times.i will be able to log in everyday as i do not have online acess available at home anymore.


I was happy get Lefty's PM and read his post tonight. I think it is real nice to have this type of an ending to a thread like this. 

Thank you Lefty for being a man of your word,

Ace


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

So, I supposed the lesson here is to give someone a benefit of doubt and perhaps assume innocent until proven guilty.

Damn, sometimes I forget those things. It is just that real scammers made me not too trusting anymore about online especially if your identity got stolen before.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi all,

Well, on Lefty's post from Nov. 2nd. he said he had already sent the payment that day. Again this Tuesday he said he had just sent it out monday. I need to let you all know that this time he really did send it. I received a money order from him today.

I still plan on be a good guy and helping new fliers but everything will be paid for up front from now on.

Ace


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Alls well that ends well....this is a good development.....


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