# Nesting???



## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Okay... one of my birds... the Red Check, which I think is a hen, has taken to sitting in one of the nest boxes I have on the only nest bowl I currently have. I really have no idea how old these birds are and I haven't seen any "pigeon porn" going on...  ... but should I put out nesting materials??

What ya think??


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Yes, put out some nesting material. Even if they don't lay eggs right away, they will "play" house and build a nest and it gives them something to do. We keep nesting material in our YB loft as soon as I see them "noticing" the opposite sex. Some lay eggs but most the pretend.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Well... I haven't really noticed them "noticing" the opposite sex...  ... geeze, how do pigeons mate anyways?  

Um, I guress I'll put some nesting materials out... I have some tabacco stems... and see if / what they do with it.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

... okay, no sooner to I post that, then I look out into the loft and TWO of the one that I think are cocks are preening and billing with the Red Check, that I think is a hen...  

Maybe I should put on a Barry White CD for them and leave them alone??


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

No, it's much more fun to watch!! LOL  You asked how they mate.......well, you'll know it when you see it. Seriously though, it is really neat to just sit and watch them. If you sit still long enough, they will begin to either ignore you or they will come to investigate this "thing" in their loft. Most of my birds are not tame by any stretch, but if I go sit in the loft with out moving or making noise, most of them will come over to me and sit on my shoulder or play with my shoestrings or just peck around on my legs........it's pretty cool.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Went back and looked at your pictures. I would say the birds are say 3 to 3/12 months old. The one you are calling a red check Is more a mealy bar in color. I would not let them nest at this age. And if its a hen probably would lay this young yet.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I think zigs and my birds are the same age. Now I have not seen any porn in my loft yet, but I do have 24 nest boxes and they rest in them some times. Now as far as my high flyers go. Well it is a blast to watch.  I have watched alfalfa do his .... "I think I am in LOVE with YOU baby dance to Darla a few times, well I guess and a bit more  . It is funny and cool and neat to listen to. OK I am sick. I not sick the pigeons are the most exciting things in my life.  How can you tell how old they are by looking at pics? And how old are they when they mate? I dont know how old my high flyers are, I just know they are fertile and know what to do.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

re lee said:


> Went back and looked at your pictures. I would say the birds are say 3 to 3/12 months old. The one you are calling a red check Is more a mealy bar in color. I would not let them nest at this age. And if its a hen probably would lay this young yet.



re lee,

So you think they're about 3 to 3 1/2 months old? Ditto to what ZK said... what are you seeing in the pics that makes you think that? Okay, so at 3 to 3.5 months, they're not old enough to mate... that's more like at 6 to 8, right? But why would letting them nest at this age be bad?

Also, I think it was you who said these birds are probably too old to break to my loft and ever let fly... but other's have said keep them in for 3 months and then fly them or let them raise a round of young first and then no matter how old they are or how strong of wing, they'll come home.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

I did mention about keeping these birds in once before. At 3 to 3-1/2 months, they are very wing strong... and will take off into the wind, perhaps never to be seen again.

Yes, SOMETIMES trying to 'break' birds to a loft is a little more successful if they have a mate and babies.

HOWEVER..... if they still have youngsters in the nest when you let them out, and they don't return... what would you do?

If you lost one of a pair.... you now have a bird without a mate.

It's up to you to decide what to do... but you do have to be prepared for the concequences.

We tried to 'break' a bird to our loft. We got him at about 8 months of age. We kept him as a breeder for two years... then tried letting him out. He promptly returned to his 'old' home.... even with a mate and nest in our loft.

Fortunately, the 'old' home wasn't far from us. The guy who used to own the bird didn't have birds any more... the loft was now a garden shed. He came outside to find the bird sitting on the ground outside the door, looking at him as if to say "well? Are you going to open this up for me or what?". 

He opened the door -- the bird walked right in, like he'd been living there for the past two years, not at our place.

Needless to say -- we don't let him out anymore! LOL

We've had birds come back home 9-10 months after being 'lost' (obviously, someone had tried to keep them). We know someone who had a bird return after seven YEARS. We've also heard stories of birds who've never been out of their loft being sold as 2-3 month old babies -- and finding their way back to the 'birth' loft -- over a hundred miles away.

We've lost youngsters raised in our loft, because we didn't let them out until they were 7-8 weeks old (due to bad weather). If you really want to keep these birds, you have to think long and hard about how badly you want to let them out.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Okay, so at 3 to 3.5 months, they're not old enough to mate... that's more like at 6 to 8, right? But why would letting them nest at this age be bad?



For one thing.... they are still growing themselves. To go through the process of laying (for the hen), then raising babies, they are using energy that is better for them to use to finish growing up. 

Even if you don't let them hatch the eggs... the hen would just lay right away again, depleting the calcium she needs to grow strong herself.

And.... at 6-8 months of age, pigeons can and will mate and lay eggs... but, like teenagers (which they still are then), they don't always make good parents. They often abandon the nest before the eggs hatch... or worse, right after. Or, they'll feed the babies for a week or two, THEN abandon them.

This has happened to us often enough that we rarely ever let our birds raise youngsters until their second year, or we will try and mate an older bird with a younger one.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

WWCa,

Thanks for the words of advise, but I have to admit, they sound rather depressing.

What I'm hearing from you is... 1) These birds shoud remian prisoner?... 2) Don't let them breed until they are at least over a year old?!?

I really don't have the space to split the loft between cocks and hens... heck!... I don't even know which are which at this point... I've got a guess, but even you'all experts can't *really* tell for sure until the eggs start coming!

I suppose that I'll let them fly someday... it will at least be a month, maybe more like 2 to 3. If it doesn't work out, it won't be the first bad decission I ever made and it probably won't ever be the last... 

Anyway... WWCa, you say you lost birds that you let out at 7 to 8 weeks of age... everything being perfect, how old are your birds when you first let them out then?


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

My birds were around 8 weeks or maybe older when I got them. They were cooing not squeaking and looked rather good size. I would guess they were between 2 and 3 months old. I trapped them almost daily on the settling board with the Avery over them for 3 weeks. When I knew they knew the sound of the noise can when it was feeding time and trapped in well, I mentally prepared myself that the next day would be the day to remove the Avery off the settling board knowing they were strong winged and may fly away. I started with 21 birds and after 3 weeks of letting them fly I still have 20 birds. They had seen their surroundings for a month and I just went for it. I have not had a problem with the strong wing thing. They dont even land on the neighbors roofs. They did the first two days, now they land on my roof then fly down to the settling board and trap in. I think for those who are getting into pigeon keeping for the first time it is difficult to find babies that are only 28 days old to start training. I looked for 3 months and gave up. I finally bought these birds which were older than 2 months and I followed my mentor step by step and it has worked out. Just my experience. Not trying to step on anyone else's advice here.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Looking at the Pictures. I looked at the wattle. the eye. The feet. THe head The body size And the feathering. Not seeing the exact eye color. But near. The color of the wattle. This is how I came up to think the birds were around 3 to 3 1/2 months old. Eye colr is starting to come in. Wattle is turning white. But not full at this time. And the blue check pied looks as it may be a cock bird. The mealy bar. That color will be easy to guess. A red check or mealy bar if they are a cock most allways will develop black flakes thru the wing flights and tail feathers. Hens do not. You will notice all the birds coo some. But cocks as they mature will spred the tail feathers and strut. Most often lagere head and body. But best at least on homers. Feel the vent area vent bbone. cocks most allway vent bone almost touches. Hens slight gap. And a little more flex. I suggested not letting them all out at one time. Settle one or to Then step it up. But train them to trap all at one time. And should be done soon. When you have settled a couple turn out more. with them. Young birds When they are younger sit the loft Look at the sky build wing strengh. And start making short loops. Wing strong birds take to the sky. some times fly out to far set down and do not remember how to get back. But can be settled. What you might do Befor you settle them Skip one day on feeding. Set them on the board. Have the feed bucket or whilstle handy. If they jump up. Try to call them back with it. Young birds 6 months old will pair and breed. You could probaly breed from them ok. Say starting march 05. By then You will know which is what. I would figure just from what I see now. You have 1 maybe 2 cocks. . But another month You will be sure. After you raise some young. The best age to start training them is at about 35 to 40 days old. The do not take much training at this age to get them trapping and resonding. They do not have to be feed trained before you let them sit the loft I allways think the younger they are the less you will lose. They will train to feed easy. But will not train to coming home if they are trained to late as easy. Any way they are your birds. You will be the one who makes the desisions. Good luck . At least you botherd to get intersted in pigeons. Welcome to the sport and hobby.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> WWCa,
> 
> Thanks for the words of advise, but I have to admit, they sound rather depressing.
> 
> ...


Yes, it does sound depressing... but I just wanted to be clear to you what COULD happen if you let these guys out. It's depressing to think they won't ever fly free (I hate having "prisoners" myself).... but even more depressing to think of them never returning.....  

We "wean" our birds at 4 weeks. Within a day or two of being moved into their own 'room', the youngsters are put out into the aviary to start trap training. After about 3-4 days of trap training, the door are opened for them to the great blue yonder. LOL So --- our birds first go out at about 5 weeks of age.

Of course, at that age, they can't fly far -- just hop from the landing board to the roof, and maybe a crazy wild 1/2 circle around the yard. That is the point -- they are too young to fly far -- so with each day, as they grow stronger and more confident, they see more and more of the yard and surrounding areas, before they fly out of sight.

You're right -- it's often hard to tell cocks from hens in youngsters. For the past two years, we haven't even 'split' our young birds over their first winter.....we just watch for any serious 'nesting' (doesn't happen often, really), and break up nests if they start building. If a young cock bird is adamant about 'driving' his hen.... he will get moved to the cock loft.

Re Lee has given some good advice, if you choose to try and fly these birds. Make sure they are REALLY WELL trap trained. Make sure they are REALLY hungry when you first let them out.... and only let out one or two at a time. (one would be my choice). Let it out just before meal time, if you have a regular time of day that they get fed.

Some folks suggest letting them out on a cloudy day -- they fly less far on those days then one bright clear ones.

And be aware of migratory hawks at this time of year too.... I don't recall for sure where you live (?) -- but where we are, we don't let the birds out --- trained or untrained --- from now, pretty much until March, due to hawk problems.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Tape the last 5 flights of one wing and put them in a cage where they can get used to their outside surroundings during the day. also get them used to something such as shaking the feed can at feeding time. after a week open the door so that they can start working thier way in and out. Then remove the tape. But like the last guy said the air sharks are on the move and these killers can and will kill and or maim a pigeon quick. I wouldn't worry about breeing until Spring. Toss any eggs that are laid


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Fake wooden eggs! You can use those to replace the real eggs. They have them at Jedds. I have 2 egg laying females but I still use the wooden eggs sometimes.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I think I am feeling sorry for zig here, all these post make it sound like you cant teach 3 month old birds to be homers, but yet I have my birds that are the same age as zigzag's birds and it was done. When I was getting ready to teach mine, I was told to tape feathers, pull out flight feathers, cut flight feathers, put soap on feathers, put a pony tail holder around a wing, about every weird thing I could have ever imagine hearing. Then I ran across a lady who took the time to work with me and she did say they were strong winged at 3 months but just teach them to trap and I should be fine. I spent 3 weeks teaching them to trap well, I put them out in the Avery for hours a day so they could see the sky and their surroundings. The first day I let them out on the landing board with the Avery off they did not fly off, they were much to scared. They sat there and shook, then finally went to the roof and the neighbors roof, looked around and them came home. I only ended up losing one bird. I started with 21 and now have 20. I have been letting them fly since September 20. I think I said on an earlier post, as new flyers no one will sell you birds that are four weeks old. I spent all summer trying and you just cant get them. Everyone would say 4 week old birds are to young to make a shipping trip, but everyone did have birds 8 weeks or older that would be fine to ship. I was so depressed when people were saying I could not teach these birds after spending $400 on birds. It has all been fine. I also let all my birds out the first day. Every one of them. I figured I bought them to fly and I would have to take the chance. I figured I had a better chance of not losing them if I let them all out because maybe if one was lost it might see its buddies and follow them home. Mine are doing great. They are starting to range and they all come back every day they fly. I think that if experienced pigeon people want new people to love and care for pigeons then people either need to sell younger birds, work more with those of us who are just getting started, give words of encouragement, not just say you will lose them, and they need to be prisoners because they are 3 months old. Sorry again if I stepped on toes. I am just feeling bad for zig because I went though the same thing, all I was told was so depressing statements. I know how zigzag man feels, I was there all summer and then had to end up getting the same age birds as zigzag did. I think this is a note to zig so he knows it is possible with good results.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Someone wanted advice so I gave it. I breed and train 100 plus young birds a year and yes some are strong on the wing until I have that particular team built and at this stage they are easier to loose when strong on the wing. The main thing is that they know the sound of the feed can and are familular with their outside surroundings. Personally I never tape the wings of young birds as it is hard for them to loose sight of the loft here but at time's I am holding my breath when the strong one's are up for the first time. Never do you push them up , you let them do it on their own. If I settle any oldbirds their wing (one only) would get taped until they knew the outside of the loft and their way back in , and that is just how it is done. I raise Birmingham Rollers and settling old bird homers doesn't apply here but Y/Bs would be handled the same way. Now one other thing, and that is the winged killers of the sky. It is a bad time be training or settling pigeons as their chances of not getting sliced and diced is getting slimmer and slimmer as the days shorten. at the very least the last thing that you want is youngsters that are just learning what their wings are for spread all over the country side by an attack. Hope this helps


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

WWCa, Re Lee, MotherLoad,

Don't get me wrong, I apprecieate the input.

Okay... this is what I'm doing.

1) My birds get fed in the morning and in the evening... half their daily ration of 1oz per per bird per feeding. When I put the feed out, I whistle and shake the feeder and put it down for 20 - 30 minutes and then the feeder comes up and they don't get any more feed until next meal time.

2) During the day, I leave the trap "open" so they can go out onto the landing board; which is enclosed, but has another larger hinged door that I can open if / when I fly them.

3) My evening routine is to scrape and sweep the loft, R&R the water in their waterers. Then I close the trap to the landing boad. Then the fun starts, I catch them and put them out on the landing board / trap. I let them settle a bit, but they've figured how to come back through the trap and will trap in if I leave them alone long enough. I then go get their "dinner" and bring it out and whistle and shake the can for a minute or so and then I put it down and back quietly into one corner of the loft... they'll trap in and "chow down."

--------- If I were to fly them ------------

If I were to fly them come some day... in my mind, still another month to two off if it were to happen... 

4) I would probably give them half of what I normally do for breakfast on Day -1, no dinner on Day -1, the next morning (D-Day) I'd catch them and put them out onto the landing board... stay in the loft so they don't trap in... let them settle for a bit and then open the landing board... if any "flew off", I'd try to keep an eye on them and then start calling them back after maybe just 5 minutes or less... i.e. wistle and shake their feeder.

4a) ... I might even make sure they're MORE HUNGRY by no feed the at all the day before and only half a dinner two days before... and before I get to all that... I'm working on getting them to come down to eat when I just whitle and shake the can... so back up in 1, 2, 3... I'd like to get to the point where I can come out into the loft with the feeder, whistle, shake and have them come down, or trap in, and be at my feet saying "OKAY! Give us the food NOW!" before progressing to 4.


Okay... have at it "shoot holes" in that plan... seriously, I want to know what to do right and even more so, I want to know what NOT to do.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zig feeding once a day is plenty for all except when you first wean them. It sounds like you have a fly pen outside of your trap where they can see the suroundings, is this correct ? if this is so and they've been out there a week or so then it's time to open the door. don't push them out, let them feel their own way out. If a couple are slow after a couple of days set them on top of the loft. Don't feed the day before you release and if you are going to do it now is the time to get them up so that they can get some wing time before the killers move in. remember that anytime you cut youngsters out for the first time there is a chance of losses and the longer you wait the stronger they get, this is no big deal as their home is the loft and you will learn how to handle Y/B s in no time , just use common sence


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

No holes in your plan. If it works fine. They are your birds. And you make your plan . The birds learn or leave. Hopefuly they stay. GOOD luck keep with it.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

zoo keeper said:


> I think I am feeling sorry for zig here, all these post make it sound like you cant teach 3 month old birds to be homers, . . . . . ..... I think I said on an earlier post, as new flyers no one will sell you birds that are four weeks old. I spent all summer trying and you just cant get them. Everyone would say 4 week old birds are to young to make a shipping trip, but everyone did have birds 8 weeks or older that would be fine to ship......... I think this is a note to zig so he knows it is possible with good results.



I never said you CAN'T teach 3 month olds to train to a new loft. It's just not that easy, and the risk of loss is much higher than if you start with younger birds. If you have a bird you really really want to keep, you want to think long and hard before you let it out.

As to no one selling you 4 week old birds --- guess it just depends on who you contact, and where you live. Up here, if you're just starting out, you can fill your loft in about a week... just let people know you're interested!  

Of course, it *does* have to be during breeding season -- finding youngsters (homers) after June of any given year is much harder -- unless you contact a breeder and ask them to specifically raise a round for you (Good breeders *will * do that for you)

As to anyone saying that 4 week olds can be shipped... that's bunk. Unless it's over the very hot summer month, they ship just as well as any older bird. There are "money races" held all over North America every year -- and ALL the birds shipped to those races are 4-5 weeks old. They are shipped clear across the country, with little to no problems. I'd have to guess that thouands of 4-5 week old youngsters are shipped each and every year. 

If someone is telling you that 4 weeks is "too young"... it's because they have a bunch of older birds they're trying to unload, and figure that if you're desperate, you'll take them.... 

Buying youngsters (homers) is a really big "buyer beware" market. The number of 'feather merchants' out there is growing.... it's almost as bad as puppy mills, IMHO.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I guess it is good to know that people will ship 4 week old birds. I was extremely frustrated this spring and summer. I absolutely could not find anyone to ship me young birds. I ended up buying these birds that were 8-10-12 week old. Not really sure. I paid for 24, received 23, two died two days later. Left me with 21, one got lost the first week, left me with 20. As a new flyer, first off, I got dumped on in June. I was told I was buying 4 homers and I got high flyers. Then no one would ship young birds. I really had a bad experience getting started. I did not even know I had high flyers until I was trying to get ready to home them. I still have my four high flyers who are prisoners. It is really sad. They are very sweet and come to me and let me pick them up. Absolutely sweet birds, but they will never fly. They dont even have a loft because I cant mix them with my homers. I am preparing to make another loft which half will be dedicated to them. I know they will be happy to have more room. For now they live in one of those chain link dog kennels. So I am sorry if I stepped on toes, I surely did not mean to. I guess it is because I had such a hard time getting started and then being sold high flyers knowing those were not homers, then no one willing to help me get started, then having to be sold older birds, and most off then being told it could not be done. I am ever so thankful to the one lady who talked me though all this and made it a neat experience in the end. My mentor calls me every week, emails, will be traveling to teach me how to vaccinate my birds in two weeks, really a neat lady. Back to being sold High flyers. When I finally figured out I had high flyers, I called that man back and specifically asked him if the birds he sold me were homers or high flyers and he said high flyers. I then asked him whey he told me in June they were homers. His response was this......homers -- high flyers, they are pigeons. OK so I guess you can see why I started out so frustrated. There are a lot of people who take advantage or discourage new pigeon lovers.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

You hit that right. racing homers alot of times is sold on peddigree. And that will not make them good. Eveery breed breeds culls. More then good ones. And alot of people sell paper. For a good price. The only way to be sure to get a decent flying racer . Is to by proven birds. Old birds. that have been raced and there race record Speaks for its. self. And then alot of time a high price is asked. But like I say A 2 dollar bird can do good. It takes awhile to build a family of birds. And that is where good ones are raised. But alot of people are willing to help new comers to the sport for free.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Lee good post and I would say that this holds true with all breeds and certainly holds true with Birmingham Rollers also.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Not all breeds. Flying birds ,they only show what they have when flying. the bird can look good, but not be able to produce or fly good. A show bird. well They can be seen for what they carry in points. Some show birds must perform also. That can be seen. So a person will know mostly what they are getting. And yes they to produce culls. that will not be show quality. Or useable stock birds. A good breeder will not sell them as such. perhaps just give them away as a hobby bird. As a rule just a small amount raised each year are good birds. And the others are birds. Hepling a new comer or an other breeder. Means selling a bird you would be willing to use your self. The hobby improves. Now fliying people sometimes will not sell birds to local flyers. And thats because you then have to compete with your own birds. As long as people buy birds that do not help them they will be out there for sell. But most good breeders will not do this.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Good point Lee. That is as long as who ever is trying to aquire a particular show breed knows what a "good" one is. I know where I would go if my loft burnt down. Most don't have a clue where to start when new. Just a thought. I only have one breed on the property and it's a flying breed.


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

zoo keeper said:


> I guess it is good to know that people will ship 4 week old birds. I was extremely frustrated this spring and summer. I absolutely could not find anyone to ship me young birds. I ended up buying these birds that were 8-10-12 week old. Not really sure. I paid for 24, received 23, two died two days later. Left me with 21, one got lost the first week, left me with 20. As a new flyer, first off, I got dumped on in June. I was told I was buying 4 homers and I got high flyers. Then no one would ship young birds. I really had a bad experience getting started.......... .................. OK so I guess you can see why I started out so frustrated. There are a lot of people who take advantage or discourage new pigeon lovers.



No toes stepped on here..... 

Your story is, unfortunately, a common one.  

It angers me to see someone taken advantage of, as you, and others, have been, when trying to get birds.

That you still have 20 of the birds left (16 homers, if I read right?) is pretty good, considering. I have heard stories of people losing many more than that when they try to let out 'older' Young Birds though... which is why I encourage anyone who is trying it to think long and hard about it first.

I don't know if the folks in my area are so different from other areas, or if we were just incredibly lucky when we first 'got into' birds. We had tons of help from several people, who did everything from finding us a loft for sale, helping move it onto our property, gave us YB's to race the first two years (and would have given us more, but we declined... ).

We've turned around and helped others in our area with their first birds too. Our club is competitive, yes, but no one gives someone new "culls" --- after all, we all know how the new guys do in the races, and where they got their birds.... it 'Proves' your stock, if someone else is flying them, and is doing well with them.  Our members exchange birds -- youngsters and breeding stock... regularly.

Our combine members contribute birds to a 4H program -- including helping build small beginner lofts, and mentoring young folk. The CU (Canadian Racing Pigeon Union) promotes the sport... and encourages the members to do so.

I'm pretty sure that at one time, the AU had some sort of promotion of the sport going on -- including a mentoring program? If they don't, it's too bad.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Well, I have two sets of birds. I have the high flyers that were supposed to be homing pigeons, but were not. That man took me for a ride. I still have them, there are four of them.

Next I bought the high flyers that were somewhere around 3 months old or so. Not completely sure. I paid for 24, received 23, 2 died two days later and I lost one the first day I flew them. That has left me with 20 birds. I was actually very impressed to have only lost one so far. I do have the injured bird now from the cat incident  . I am very sad over that. I dont know what its fate will be, as it has a large area with no skin, but it is real clean, just no skin. I would imagine it will live since it has been four days and it is not draining at all and is walking, eating and drinking. It just is a big wound for a bird.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Zoo Keep , these birds are super tough as long as they are healthy and you will be surprised as to how fast they will heal up from wounds, broken bones , you name it. As for new people buying birds my advise is allways the same, and that is to steer clear of those that advertise selling birds and educate yourself on what you want and who's out there with the goods. If you are just looking for pigeons well then that is a different story. And try to get your birds from one loft as birds from many lofts generally leave you with health problems until everything balances out and immunitys all get on the same page.
Scott


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