# Elder Pigeon Issues



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I have a pet quality American Fantail that is at least eight years old. She may be much older because I do not know how old she was when I got her.

She has been under the care of my vet for several years. Aside from chronic sinus problems she is an otherwise healthy bird. She's undergone several corrective surgeries for her sinus problems. But something new has developed.

Frances is acting more like a show pigeon. She stands in place, is reluctant to walk, hardly flies, and actually has trouble keeping steady balance. She is not in any distress. She eats heartily. Coos and twitches at her mate. She hasn't laid eggs for two years but that doesn't get in the way of her love life, even now.

If you did not know her you would not suspect anything might be wrong, except maybe for her lack of willingness to fly. As a Fantail she does not display any unusual behavior. But I've known her almost eight years and this is totally not right.

BTW, I don't think this is PMV as she does not have any twisted neck symptoms and I have only seven birds. They are never outside or near any other pigeons. Her feather condition is near-perfect. Her overall appearance is stunningly beautiful. She is not underweight. She has not been near any chemicals, pesticides or any kind of poison. She does not seem to have any vision problems, as she can see me very well when it's dinner time  I just can't figure this out.

Any feedback or insights you can offer will be appreciated 

Daniel


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Scuiry said:


> I have a pet quality American Fantail that is at least eight years old. She may be much older because I do not know how old she was when I got her.
> 
> She has been under the care of my vet for several years. Aside from chronic sinus problems she is an otherwise healthy bird. She's undergone several corrective surgeries for her sinus problems. But something new has developed.
> 
> ...


Have you discussed Frances' _new_ behavior with the vet who has been caring for her?

Cindy


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Yes, I have discussed it with my vet by phone and he was not alarmed or concerned. I plan on taking her to see him anyway for a complete work-up but it dawned on me that maybe she has some form avian arthritis. I doubt very much she has salmonella as there are no other birds or pests around to transmit it. Do pigeons get arthritis?

Many thanks,

Daniel


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

Virtually ALL animals "age" to varying degrees and in different ways. Over what time period has your hen "slowed down"? Anything at all sudden would not be age related. Also keep in mind that ALL animals can injure themselves in silly ways, twist their neck funny or land too hard etc...and then will favor the injury until it heals without treatment from us. This would appear suddenly, not over time.

So the first question is over what time period did you notice this?


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

kippermom said:


> Virtually ALL animals "age" to varying degrees and in different ways. Over what time period has your hen "slowed down"? Anything at all sudden would not be age related. Also keep in mind that ALL animals can injure themselves in silly ways, twist their neck funny or land too hard etc...and then will favor the injury until it heals without treatment from us. This would appear suddenly, not over time.
> 
> So the first question is over what time period did you notice this?


I'm glad your asking this because it's making me think harder about the progression of this behavior.

I first noticed this in-late July after my trip to LA (I was gone four days). I'm not sure how long the onset of this has been. I only noticed it after my trip. Both she and her mate pretty much stay close to their roost. They are allowed to free fly in my living and dinning room. Frances has always been content to stay close to her roost. 

She does not appear injured or in any kind of pain. She's basically clumbsy, is not steady on her feet and doesn't fly except for three or four feet. She lands very clumbsy too and has trouble staying on her feet. She does not seem clumbsy when walking but walks tentatively across the floor. She acts as if she wants to fly by raising or twitching her wings up slightly and then changes her mind. She coos and twitches with her mate many times a day. When I put her back in her roost she coos and bobs her head in her usual routine way. She has stunningly beautiful plummage. But she exhibits more Fantail-like behavior now like holding her head back farther, turning her head cock-eyed sideways to look at things the way Fantails do. She wobbles her head a lot more like a real Fantail. She holds her chest up higher and her head back farther. It's the darndest thing because this is the way Fantail is supposed to behave - except she's never acted this way before.

If this is related to the time I was away from July 18-21 I'm not sure what could have happened. A friend of mine came to change the water and feed once every evening. The only things different in her routine is how she changed the water. She used a stove-top boiling pan to dump and re-fill the water dishes. In effect, they all shared the same drinking source because all the dishes were dumped in this pan, the water dumped and refilled into the same pan, then the dishes were refilled from that pan. (BTW, I've never understood why she does it this way as my bathroom sink is just a few feet from cage area. It takes her longer to set up this routine than to just refill one dish at time from the bathroom sink.)

If Frances had accidentally hurt herself while I was away on that trip I'm not sure I would have discovered it even if I had not gone away. But I only started noticing her behavior after I got back from the trip. I'm clueless as to what could have happened.

Daniel


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How has his weight been lately. Is he loosing any weight? 

Reti


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

There isn't a lot of information on older pigeons, so I do a lot of reading about other species and try to correlate the information.

You mention that she stopped laying eggs. Mammals and birds produce both male and female hormones. The largest amount comes from the expected source (testes/ovaries), but small amounts are also produced by other parts of the body (adrenal gland, fat cells, etc). The proportion between the male and female hormones determines the behavior which is displayed. Older hens experience atrophy of their one active ovary. (The other ovary atorphied before the bird hatched from their egg.) This shifts the hormonal balance toward the male side, which can result in a hen being more aggressive or doing more "I'm so handsome" displaying.

If she pulled a muscle due to a misstep or awkward landing, it should gradually improve. King pigeons are another heavy, less than agile breed and we have made several adjustments to Walter's living quarters to reduce the chance of injury, including a ramp (to get to and from the flight pen perches) and a step stool (to reduce the flight distance up to the coop).


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I took Frances to my vet yesterday. Upon examination she was found to be blind in her left eye. She can see light but cannot see objects. The vet took a long swab and waved it around her eyes. She responded on the right but he could actually touch her left cornea.

The vet thinks it may have been the result of a head trauma, since I noticed the change in her behavior so suddenly (since it happened in July there was no visible bruise on her head). It's possible that something else caused it such as high blood pressure or some other condition but he said head trauma is the most likely cause. He could not see anything in her eye with his scope but he referred to me to an avian opthamologist (Can you believe that?) if she does not improve in a couple of months.

Worst case scenario is that injury could be permanent or the result of something else that may kill her. I have to decide now whether I should wait or have the opthamolgist examine her soon. The vet said the exam could cost $300.

Frances has never had an accident or injury in the eight years she has lived with me. Assuming this was a head trauma, this is now the third incident of an injury in my flock. Early this year one of my other Fantails had a fractured clavicle (wish bone) probably from a fall. I also lost a pigeon this year because of a neck trauma - she tangled herself between some cages that were placed close to each other (they're separated now). I don't want to bury my head in the sand or become alarmist but this really concerns me. All three of these incidents happened this year. I've had the same space/cage configuration for eight years. I cannot figure why these things are happening now after all this time.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

P.S. I may have misspoken on one point. The business card for my referral says, "Eye Care for Animals" with "Ophthalmology" below the title. So, she's a veterinarian who specializes in Ophthalmology.

Daniel


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

So sorry you are having such a bad run! It seems so frustrating, since it had worked well for so long. Hopefully this vision issue will resolve on it's own!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Daniel...Just curious...what kind of feeding/water dishes do you use in her cage...plastic, glass, metal and what about bath bowl? How old are they?
You've had a terrible time this year with your pigeons. We try to create a environment that will keep them safe and as hard as we try,there are so many variables beyond our control.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Charis said:


> Daniel...Just curious...what kind of feeding/water dishes do you use in her cage...plastic, glass, metal and what about bath bowl? How old are they?
> You've had a terrible time this year with your pigeons. We try to create a environment that will keep them safe and as hard as we try,there are so many variables beyond our control.


Hi,

They are clear plastic. I also use (green) plastic pans made for large potted plants. They are used only for the pigeon baths.

I've had Frances and her mate eight years. I do not how old she was when I got her but she was an adult at the time. My other pigeons vary from three to seven years old.

The latest news is that my vet thinks she had head trauma. It's possible. The funny thing, though, is that I've had three incidents this year alone. One was fatal, the others serious. I had none the prior seven years. Nothing in my house is any different now than it was eight years ago. Go figure.

Right now, Frances is content to just stay in her cage/roost all day. She eats, drinks, "goes potty", coos and twitches at her mate. I have to physically bring her out to flap her wings and walk around twice a day. She hardly walks any distance and gets right back up on my hand to go up to her roost. She really doesn't want to do anything anymore.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Reti said:


> How has his weight been lately. Is he loosing any weight?
> 
> Reti


Hi Reti,

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Her weight hasn't changed. Her overall health seems excellent. The most likely cause according to my vet is head trauma. There is a slight chance some underlying condition brought on the blindness. It's not obvious when looking at her she is blind in one eye. She only acts tentative and clumbsy on her feet - like a show pigeon.

She stopped flying in the past week or so. Well, she tried once the other morning and didn't get where she wanted. But she's kind of settled into a sedentary lifestyle. I'm not sure if this is good or bad but she doesn't seem distressed or bothered by anything.

Daniel


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Scuiry said:


> Hi,
> 
> They are clear plastic. I also use (green) plastic pans made for large potted plants. They are used only for the pigeon baths.
> 
> ...


Daniel, The reason I asked is because a similar thing happened to my Starling. I had been giving her bath water in an antique bowl that was big enough for her to splash around in. Naturally she drank some of the water too. The bowl had been painted with paint containing lead. Her condition worsened over time...her eye became cloudy, she started twitching and had a difficult time walking. At first we thought she had a stroke. My vet friend came over to look at her and immediately figured it out when she saw that bowl. The bowl was removed and she was given a different bath bowl and she improved to her old self again. The scary thing was that bowl was 150 year old children's bowl.
Is there any possibility she could have lead paint poisioning...cage, chipping woodwork, etc?


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Charis said:


> Daniel, The reason I asked is because a similar thing happened to my Starling. I had been giving her bath water in an antique bowl that was big enough for her to splash around in. Naturally she drank some of the water too. The bowl had been painted with paint containing lead. Her condition worsened over time...her eye became cloudy, she started twitching and had a difficult time walking. At first we thought she had a stroke. My vet friend came over to look at her and immediately figured it out when she saw that bowl. The bowl was removed and she was given a different bath bowl and she improved to her old self again. The scary thing was that bowl was 150 year old children's bowl.
> Is there any possibility she could have lead paint poisioning...cage, chipping woodwork, etc?


One of the first things I considered was poisoning. The only chemical she has been exposed to is pyrethrins mite spray. All the birds were sprayed several times this year for mites. Her mate still has some mites but I haven't sprayed them in months now. All the paint in the house is water-based, new. There is nothing she can pick at that would have any paint chips. She is in a standard rectangular breeding cage made in the last few years. The vacant one below her is an older, larger aviary style square shaped cage. I painted it myself eight years ago with a non-toxic spray paint. I've been over the whole list of possibilties.

I don't want to blame my friend but I first noticed the change after my trip to LA around July 21. She probably had the head trauma while I was gone. The one thing that was different when I got back - and it was not connected with Frances' environment - was that my friend who changed the water apparently forgot to re-fill the plastic water dishes on the dinning room table, and just re-filled the ones in the cages. That means my Josette who has the full run of my house like a dog or cat, had stale water for a couple of days before I got back. One dish was completely empty and full of seeds. She was okay but stopped sitting on her nest until I got back. 

Daniel


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lead toxicity crossed my mind too. You can easily test for that.
Head trauma sounds like another possibility. Maybe she got spooked by your friend and flew into something. My King Krames once flew against the wall and he was acting like he was "drunk" for days.
Also, could he have had a mild stroke? 
A brain tumor?

Reti


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Reti said:


> Lead toxicity crossed my mind too. You can easily test for that.
> Head trauma sounds like another possibility. Maybe she got spooked by your friend and flew into something. My King Krames once flew against the wall and he was acting like he was "drunk" for days.
> Also, could he have had a mild stroke?
> A brain tumor?
> ...


Hi Reti,

I asked about a stroke but he was pretty confident it was head trauma. The only suggestion the vet offered was an opthalmology exam to rule out an underlying cause. The exam could be $300 +/-

Bottomline: If her vision doesn't improve in a few months it's probably permanent.

I'm actually less concerned about her vision than her sedentary behavior. She just wants to stay in her roost all day/night. She's bright and alert but doesn't want to come out. When I bring her out she mostly stands in place. She gets up promptly on my hand when I offer it, probably knowing I'll put her back inside - she's a pampered bird and she knows it!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't mind spending any amount necessary to save a bird/animal or at least make it's life comfortable but I don't know what good an ophthalmologic exam would do.
It would probably only show if the partial blindness is from a local (eye) cause or underlying condition. 
If it is an underlying cause you will need further testing to see what it is.
I would leave the eye exam out for now if the vet thinks it is a general condition that causes this. So, did he say how you can determine if it is head trauma? I guess a CT scan of the head would show if there is any bleeding and/or edema in the brain. Or if it an is an ischemic stroke where a blood vessel is obstructed.
I don't even know if they do CT scans of bird's brains, I know they don't do it here. And if it is an old issue even a CT scan wouldn't be conclusive.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Daniel, I'm very sorry you and your pigeon are having this problem. We have never had a blind pigeon but I was just thinking that the reason she is so sedentary right now is because she is unsure of herself with the blindness in the one eye. What I'm hoping is that after she adjusts to being able to see out of only one eye that she will start getting out and do more things with you like she used to do. It may simply be that she needs more time.


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## kippermom (Jan 11, 2006)

We had a horse start to seem skittish, just a changed personality seemingly, and turned his head funny and seemed clumsy...the vet had a specialist look at him and it was all caused by partial blindness in one eye from head trauma. (no other symptoms and we have no way of knowing how he got hurt!) He was given meds that caused the blood clots that were interfering with his vision to disintegrate so the vision was restored...and so was his personality etc. Dunno if similar meds are available for pijis?


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Daniel, I'm very sorry you and your pigeon are having this problem. We have never had a blind pigeon but I was just thinking that the reason she is so sedentary right now is because she is unsure of herself with the blindness in the one eye. What I'm hoping is that after she adjusts to being able to see out of only one eye that she will start getting out and do more things with you like she used to do. It may simply be that she needs more time.


I hope you are right. Even though the vet told me he thought it was head trauma, I'm worried on the outside chance it was a stroke. You could be right about her feeling unsure right now. Yesterday she tried flying up to her cage from the floor and made it half-way to the entrance of her previous quarters (now empty). She used to be able to just perch on the entrance even though it has no perch space. She can't balance herself enough to keep from falling off. The day before she made it up to the table and then fell backwards down to the floor. She can walk straight but she is very unsteady on her feet. When I hold her in my hand she seems to tilt backwards - again like a show pigeon. It's sad. I just hope it is not a stroke or something worse.

The bright side is that I see her twitching and cooing at her mate almost every day. They cuddle together. He preens her. She perks up when it's feeding time and eats heartily. She doesn't look uncomfortable. She actually seems to be enjoying herself despite her new challenges.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

kippermom said:


> We had a horse start to seem skittish, just a changed personality seemingly, and turned his head funny and seemed clumsy...the vet had a specialist look at him and it was all caused by partial blindness in one eye from head trauma. (no other symptoms and we have no way of knowing how he got hurt!) He was given meds that caused the blood clots that were interfering with his vision to disintegrate so the vision was restored...and so was his personality etc. Dunno if similar meds are available for pijis?


There may be treatments available for her. I'll have to take her to the eye specialists to be sure.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*More Thoughts On Balance Problems*

It occurred to me that maybe the balance and eye issues are separate. I only discovered her partial blindness after she began having balance problems. Now, the vet surmised that this was all due to a head trauma. But I wonder, could she have become blind in one eye some time ago, and later developed the balance problems for some other reason?

I saw a youngster pigeon hideously infected with pox in the park once. One of its eyes was completely covered over with lesions. But amazingly, the bird flew effortlessly around the park as if nothing was wrong.

Pigeons in complete darkness can stand erect and perch without any trouble or balance problems.

So, I wonder if Frances has two separate, unrelated issues. If so, what could be causing the balance problems - other than head trauma? Do pigeons develop inner ear infections? What else could possibly affect her equilibrium?

Many thanks,

Daniel


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Daniel, they call that "vestibular disease" if you want to do a search. Problems can be anywhere from the inner ear to the brain.

Pidgey


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pidgey, you are a treasured resource!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that was part of the problem with my bird, YoYo, so I'm a little familiar with it.

Pidgey


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm sorry Frances if feeling off. When I read your first posts, I immediately thought of an injury or eyesight issue. With loss of sight in one eye, that would definitely cause her to be less sure of herself and less wanting to fly. It also sounds like (from her "lifting her wings" but not flying every time) that she could have pulled a muscle or injured a wing that is recovering now. I've noticed this with my injured rehabs, that they are about to fly and then seem to "remember" they're injured and change their mind. Or, starting to flap the wings causes pain and so they stop the movement. This is especially true of larger/heavier birds such as kings or fantails. 

I have three pigeons who are blind in one eye and a few others who have less-than-100% eyesight. All of them are more cautious about flying, and I believe a large part is due to fear/apprehension of the actual _landing_, as it's hard to land where they want. Just like us trying to drive with one eye, the depth perception makes it very hard. 

Other than that, being blind in one eye shouldn't hinder her at all. Mine do just fine with the other birds as far as eating, drinking, bathing, nesting, etc. Just the flying can be a problem at times, it seems.

Do you have any way to put them out in the sunshine a few hours a day (in a cage of course)? With a lot of indoor-only birds, we can see a decline in health due to lack of real sunlight. The important vitamins actual sunshine provides are vital to the well-being of indoor birds especially. So maybe when she's feeling better you can think about doing some outside time.  I hope she is feeling normal again very soon.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I remember something about some Pasteurella infections causing some vestibular disease. Clavamox.

Pidgey


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Avian Vestibular Disease*

I hope your suspicion of vestibular disease is correct - maybe I'm hopeful. I'm not sure what would be good news.

I can find no info. on this syndrome in birds. Lots of articles on canine vestibular disease. The only avian references appear to be in scientific journals. Before asking my vet about this I feel I need to know a little more. Maybe he didn't consider this because it is extremely rare/unlikely in birds? Of course I've seen so many exotic problems with my birds it wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened.

Many thanks again,

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Feeling Off*



maryjane said:


> I'm sorry Frances if feeling off. When I read your first posts, I immediately thought of an injury or eyesight issue. With loss of sight in one eye, that would definitely cause her to be less sure of herself and less wanting to fly. It also sounds like (from her "lifting her wings" but not flying every time) that she could have pulled a muscle or injured a wing that is recovering now. I've noticed this with my injured rehabs, that they are about to fly and then seem to "remember" they're injured and change their mind. Or, starting to flap the wings causes pain and so they stop the movement. This is especially true of larger/heavier birds such as kings or fantails.
> 
> I have three pigeons who are blind in one eye and a few others who have less-than-100% eyesight. All of them are more cautious about flying, and I believe a large part is due to fear/apprehension of the actual _landing_, as it's hard to land where they want. Just like us trying to drive with one eye, the depth perception makes it very hard.
> 
> ...


She has no other injuries to explain her loss of balance. Birds can preen and stand in place firmly in total darkness. Eyesight should not affect her ability to get her beak back to her little behind and clean herself.

Let me try and summarize this as best as I can:

She has trouble standing in one place and tends to roll backwards and splay little. She works hard at positioning herself to feed or drink. She has difficulty preening and does not scratch herself with her foot or pick all of her feathers. When I encourage her to fly (holding her up and gently letting her downward) she almost rolls out of my hand to the side or backwards. When I pick her up she has trouble standing in my hand. When I put her down on a flat surface she rolls backwards slightly, splays a little, then tries to get her footing. She walks gingerly at first and then has a normal gait. She no longer perches or flies. Now, when she tries to fly, she holds up her wings slightly, moving them up and down a little as if she can't remember how.

Should I pursue the opthalmology exam or take her to another avian vet for a second opinion?

Many thanks,

Daniel


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

From your description, it seems like the issue is more than her vision.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Scuiry said:


> She has no other injuries to explain her loss of balance. Birds can preen and stand in place firmly in total darkness. Eyesight should not affect her ability to get her beak back to her little behind and clean herself.
> 
> Let me try and summarize this as best as I can:
> 
> ...



This may sound silly, but can pigeons get inner ear problems that can throw off their balance like it does in humans. If they can, and they can also have allergies, couldn't she have an allergy that is causing an inner ear problem? Especially at this time of year, when many people are getting the same thing.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Bad News*

Not trusting the original diagnosis but my own instincts, I took Frances back to my vet for a re-check. She can see in both eyes now, but seeing her this way he was instantly convinced it was not neurological. He stethoscoped her and heard a heart murmur, something she's always had. In fact, I reminded him the very first time he saw her (years ago) that she had one but that he didn't hear it at the time. Well, now hearing and judging from her symptoms (all the ones I've reported here) he suspected a heart problem. The Xray showed an enlarged heart and vessels. She has congenital heart disease.

We are trying some medication for her heart. The good news is that she should respond well to it in a few days. The bad news is that she may live only a few more months. There is an experimental drug my vet wants to try after he consults with a cardiologist as it has never been used on birds. If it does help I have no idea what her prognosis will be. Thankfully, she is comfortable for the moment. Her mate stands guard and tends to her preening and twitching. She still bows and coos with him 

Exactly one month from yesterday I will have had her eight years. I didn't know how old she was at the time. All I know is she was an adult when I got her. We fought sinus infections for years until I found a vet who could help her. After several very risky surgeries she came through with her sinus problems cured. It felt like a miracle. I felt like I had made a difference in her life, more than anyone else ever could. Had she gone to a loft with dozens of other birds the chances are the repeated infections would have killed long ago or the owner would have put her down. I thought we had many more happy years together.

I could tell you so many things about Frances. You all know the myth that pigeons are peaceful. I've never known a peaceful pigeon except for Frances. I never knew how sweet she was until months after she came to live with me. She was so afraid of me at first, but when she settled and got used to me she became completely tame and sweet. I can count on one hand the number of times she's pecked at me. Of course Frances is ditzy too. She lost her first brood, let another baby die in the cold, and abandoned another that I had to hand-raise myself. So many of her eggs never hatched because she just couldn't quite get the nest and brood thing down. I wish her kids were as sweet as she is. The only one like her lived a very short life. The rest are like their dad, mean, feisty and full of attitude  She has been such an important part of my life now for so long. I feel in some mystical, magical way, I was meant to be her protector and caregiver. Who knows why? All I know is that she has brought me so much cheer, so many smiles, so many hours of seeing her do all those things that make her feel cozy, happy and safe. Being a part of her life was pure joy. She has given me so much. Anyone who says I've spent too much money can never even begin to understand how richly rewarding she has been to me.

Daniel


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

You have given Frances many years of quality life. Seems like she has benefitted from the relationship as much as you have. Sure hope the meds are able to support her for quite a while longer!


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Post Script*

I don't know if there is a lesson to be learned here but some things come to mind.

I love my vet and he is truly an expert in pigeon care on top of being an avian specialist. But from where I stand, he jumped to conclusions about her conditions, sent me off for some expensive tests that would have revealed nothing useful. If he (or I) had been more diligent, more insistent, maybe this could have been caught and treated before getting to such an advanced stage. I don't know if this would have made a difference in her prognosis. All I can say at the moment is that sometimes, even the best of vets, can be dead wrong.

Right now I'm trying to learn all I can about avian cardiology. According to the two studies I have found, it's in its "infancy". Not much is known about treating heart problems in birds. I can find nothing on surgical interventions. There are some drugs that help certain conditions but I don't know what the long-term outlook is for birds with cardiac problems.

Judging from Frances' appearance and mobility, I think it will be a miracle if she shows significant improvement even for a while. She is so unsteady she just barely able to feed and drink on her own. I don't know what I will do if she declines to the point where she can no longer feed herself...

I want to thank all of you for trying to help me trouble-shoot this very mysterious problem. If anything new develops I will keep you all informed.

Many thanks,

Daniel

(P.S. For those of you who have a spiritual or religious interest, tomorrow is the feast of St. Francis of Assisi, patron of the poor, the environment, pets and all animals. Strange coincidence for me.)


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*New Developments?*

I thought this thread was closed but there are some new developments with Frances.

First of all, she is on two heart medicines which are helping. The court is still out on how successful this will be but we should know in about two to four weeks.

The second part of this is highly speculative and you can all call me paranoid/delusional if any of this sounds flakey.

I asked my vet and he confirmed that her neurologic symptoms could be the result of poisoning.

There is some history with the property owners of my apartment that I won't indundate you with here - it is long and complicated. But I do have good reason to believe someone illegally entered my home three years several times, someone who had key access, and did it when he knew I was away, at the time my landlord ordered me to remove the pigeons. I had one mysterious "accidental death" this year which my vet now tells me could have been done to her by someone. Piecing all the parts of this three-year long story together (much of which, for brevity, I have not included here), I've begun to wonder if someone is messing with my birds.

I won't ask you to comment on my colorful imagination, but only about the effects of pesticides and other kinds of poison on birds. What kinds of pesticides/poisons are commonly used on pigeons? If you worked for a pharmaceutical company and worked closely with plumbing, painting and other contractors, if you had special knowledge of the kinds of substances that can kill birds, what would be your "drugs of choice"?

I know amitrole is one pesticide used on birds. It comes in a small pellet form and is left as bait. What might be the short or long term effects if a bird survives from this kind of poisoning?

I am testing for heavy metals but I doubt I will find anything significant after three months.

All, in all, this is probably the old-fashioned "Wild Goose Chase". I can tell you that as of next month, I'm probably installing a security system on my apartment - if only to put my wild imagination at rest.

Many thanks,

Daniel


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

OMG, I would hate to think that someone would be cruel and horrible enough to do a thing like that. Still, you never know. I think the security system, or a hidden camera focused on the birds cage wouldn't be a bad idea. I hope you're wrong.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Omg*



Jay3 said:


> OMG, I would hate to think that someone would be cruel and horrible enough to do a thing like that. Still, you never know. I think the security system, or a hidden camera focused on the birds cage wouldn't be a bad idea. I hope you're wrong.


We may be down to a simple undiagnosed condition that has aggravated her longtime heart problem - or (God forbid) someone has gotten to them.

I'm fairly certain someone illegally entered my apartment three years ago. I just don't know about now. 

My vet wanted to run a serology on Frances. I may do that but there are few options if it's viral: PMV is comfort care only. PHEV (Pigeon Herpes Encephaltic Virus) can cause neurologic symptoms and there is an anti-viral drug for it. So far her neurologic symptoms are stable so I'm going to hold off on another blood screening for now. Yesterday's ordeal took it's toll on her. I don't want to put her through that again until she shows some improvement.

(Oh, my vet also mentioned Circo-Virus as another possibility. I've have to be cautious here. My vet is a primary researcher in this disease. I think cutting edge researchers want to see their research in almost everything around them ;-)

Daniel


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sorry the two of you are going through all this. I hope everything turns out alright. Please keep us updated.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Organophosphates*

There is a new wrinkle to this problem. The toxicology found organophosphates. There is a slightly elevated level of zinc. There is a higher than normal level of iron in her system but no immediate danger. The pesticide is the highest priority at the moment.

I'm taking Frances for her first treatment of atropine tomorrow. If she responds, then we've got our poison.

Of course this begs more and more questions: How did this happen? Orkin visits our complex about once a month but I've just learned they no longer use this pesticde. They don't even come inside my apartment. I can think of very few other possibilities. I don't use pesticides and I don't know anyone who does. Contaminated food? Could someone have tracked it in?

At first I regretted putting Frances through the ordeal of taking blood samples. She looked frightfully ill afterwards. But now I may have something to hope for.

Tonight she and her mate are playing with pine needles and feathers - they're trying to build a nest. I don't know why. She doesn't lay eggs anymore. She's still clumbsy and stumbles around, can't fly but apparently in a playful mood. She still manages to enjoy herself in spite of everything. There may be a lesson to learn in this. No matter what anyone tells you about sick pigeons, I think at some level they try to make the best of their situation and in some cases, still enjoy themselves. Maybe think twice next time you are about to put an animal down.

Daniel


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Daniel,

I wonder if her seed could be contaminated? Is there a way to have it tested? 

Jennifer


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Contaminated Seed?*



jenfer said:


> Daniel,
> 
> I wonder if her seed could be contaminated? Is there a way to have it tested?
> 
> Jennifer


I'm going to ask my vet about it but the onset of this was during a three-day period in July. I suspect the exposure happened once and she has been dealing with this now for a while. I don't have any seed left from July. None of the other pigeons have shown any symptoms.

Not sure how long this pesticide stays in a bird's system but my said vet it could last for weeks. Atropine should work if that is the cause of her neurologic symptoms. If she doesn't respond to this, I don't know what's left. She's definitely been exposed to a hazardous amount of this pesticide. But if the treatment doesn't work... Even if it doesn't work, she needs the treatment to get it out of her system.

Daniel


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If it was the seed, the others should have shown signs of this. I'm saying a prayer for her healing as I type this.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

The feed being contaminated seems to most likely source of pesticide toxicity if the birds are indoor only and no one is spraying inside your dwelling. I suppose someone could have tracked it in on shoes, but I wonder how likely she'd be to show such high levels of toxicity if that were the case.

If the seed was contaminated, I also don't know if all the birds would necessarily be symptomatic. First, all animals are individual--some are more sensitive to toxins and pathogens than others. Also, a study showed that given a variety of seeds to choose from, pigeons preferentially consume one kind of seed before moving on to others. So it could be that the bird in question happened to eat more of the seeds that were contaminated than the others in the household.

Hope she recovers! If the exposure was in July and the toxicology still shows high levels of organophosphates, does that mean they've been in her system all this time?

Jennifer


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Daniel, when I first read your thoughts about poison, the first thing that popped in my mind was antifreeze. 

Continued good wishes for her full recovery.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Scuiry said:


> ...Tonight she and her mate are playing with pine needles and feathers - they're trying to build a nest. I don't know why. She doesn't lay eggs anymore....Daniel


Pigeons seem to enjoy all the different phases of their cycle, including courtship and nest building, regardless of whether or not they lead to eggs. Perhaps these activities strengthen the pair bond. So glad she is continuing to improve!


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Contaminated Seed - How?*



jenfer said:


> The feed being contaminated seems to most likely source of pesticide toxicity if the birds are indoor only and no one is spraying inside your dwelling. I suppose someone could have tracked it in on shoes, but I wonder how likely she'd be to show such high levels of toxicity if that were the case.
> 
> If the seed was contaminated, I also don't know if all the birds would necessarily be symptomatic. First, all animals are individual--some are more sensitive to toxins and pathogens than others. Also, a study showed that given a variety of seeds to choose from, pigeons preferentially consume one kind of seed before moving on to others. So it could be that the bird in question happened to eat more of the seeds that were contaminated than the others in the household.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming they've been in her system all this time. The onset of her symtoms began over a three day period while I was away. It has been downhill ever since.

I hope it was contaminated seed because the other alternatives are, frankly, frightening. My vet has not suggested having the others tested but I will ask him. Presuming they all ate the same seed at the same time they should all have been exposed to some of it. However, her symptoms included blindness in one eye.

What baffles me -- and this is all a learning curve now -- is that it has been three months since the onset of her symptoms. I did not think pesticides could stay that long and a bird live to tell about it. 

I've been conservative with the treatments so far. One injection per day since Saturday. The directions call for one injection every four to eight hours but I think that is for more extreme cases. I need to ask my vet because atropine is a drug used to bring up the heart rate of patients during surgery or when someone has a sudden drop in blood pressure. I don't know what implications that has for a cardiac patient - she already has an accelerated heart rate (and presumably high blood pressure).

I'm hoping some of you have read about or some knowledge of this issue. I would very much appreciate your help in thinking this through again....

I was getting racing mix from two different feed stores. I don't recall at the time which one, and I'm not trying to blame the feed store. The question is whether these places ever use pesticides around their storage areas and what are the chances of contamination. I suppose it could come from one single seed getting one drop of pesticide -- that might be purely accidental. But I really don't know business practices of these places to imagine how this could happen. Can you help?

Daniel


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Daniel,

What is the atropine supposed to accomplish? Is there any way to flush the pesticides from her body? (I know chelation therapy is for heavy metals and wonder if something similar would work for pesticides. I'm also sure there'd be holistic ways to address it.)



> The question is whether these places ever use pesticides around their storage areas and what are the chances of contamination.


What about the seed being sprayed directly when it was growing? I don't know much about pesticides, but I'll ask someone I know to see if she knows what the most common applications of organophosphates are.

Jennifer


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

jenfer said:


> Daniel,
> 
> What is the atropine supposed to accomplish? Is there any way to flush the pesticides from her body? (I know chelation therapy is for heavy metals and wonder if something similar would work for pesticides. I'm also sure there'd be holistic ways to address it.)
> 
> ...


Atropine is a drug widely used in medicine. I've taken it myself for asthma related problems. It is given to drowning victims and pneumonia patients with fluid in the lungs. It also used during surgeries to increase heart rate.

Organophosphates attach to and bind themselves to neurofibers. Atropine unbinds this chemical from the neurofibers and it is then flushed out of the system. It is a standard treatment for this kind of pesticide poisoning. It's pretty nifty. In some cases, the results are almost instantaneous 

Daniel


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Organophosphates attach to and bind themselves to neurofibers. Atropine unbinds this chemical from the neurofibers and it is then flushed out of the system. It is a standard treatment for this kind of pesticide poisoning. It's pretty nifty. In some cases, the results are almost instantaneous


Aha! I know it's often used in emergency/surgical situations (and I've used it in eye drops for pain relief), but I didn't know it could do this also. Very interesting.


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Cholinesterase Inhibiters - Some Important Lessons*

I've been doing a lot of fact-finding on pesticide poisoning.

Organophosphates fall in the class of what are called, "Cholinesterase Inhibiters" a nerve agent or "neurotransmitter" that inhibits or "binds" the breakdown of acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine turns on the synapses in the nervous system. Cholinesterase is an enzyme that breaks down the acetylcholine and shuts off them off. This switching on and off happens almost instaneously in our bodies. If there is not enough cholinesterase enzyme the acetylecholine will not break down and the synapses will not shut off.

A subject may experience tremors, convulsions, difficulty breathing, blurred vision, basically a whole litany of neurologic symptoms. Atropine blocks the organophosphate and restores the production of cholinesterase, allowing the normal breakdown of acetylcholine again.

See:

http://www.aristatek.com/Newsletter...PESTICIDES, AND CHOLINESTERASE INHIBITION.htm

In pigeons, atropine is the drug of choice. In humans, other antidotes may be added such as diazepam and protopam. From what I have read so far, protopam actually removes the OP from the body.

I once had a highly respected breeder tell me (over email) one of my birds had died from Trich. The necropsy revealed herpes complicated by a baytril-resistant bacteria. Does this sound like a familiar story to you?

As pigeon fanciers we usually look for the obvious. We usually associate neurologic dysfunction to a viral problem, most often PMV, sometimes head trauma, even less often PHEV (Pigeon Herpes). PMV is one of the three leading killers of pigeons. I have seen so many exotic illnesses over the last few years that don't fit the "cookie-cutter," "garden variety" type. It's so it's easy to settle for the obvious. Even my own vet in this case was stumped until I took it upon myself to look beyond the obvious. So I think the lessons here for me are:

Don't settle for the obvious. 
Be proactive - Sometimes your vet is wrong.
Don't give up too quickly.
Keep fact-finding until you are reasonably sure of what really happened.
You may want to insert a few of your own here < >.

Daniel


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*New Development - Fish Out of Water*

Frances has now been through treatments for pesticide and zinc toxicity. I regret they have had little, if any, effect. She seems to coo louder and can negotiate her drinking dish better. We have tried different heart medicines. She is now on an experimental drug used only for dogs.

Frances still enjoys her day. She has fun playing with her toys (feathers and long pine needles), cooing, bobbing and twitching at and grooming her mate (he always returns the favor). She even engages in mating rituals. Although she is a sick bird, she manages to have fun. I'm not sure she even feels pain or discomfort. It is hard to give her meds because she is so frightened to have anything put in her beak. I've done some creative things to take edge off such as giving her favorite treats right after medicine. I keep hoping the positive association will help make her less fearful.

There is one new development - or maybe it's been happening for a while and now it's becoming frequent. She spontaneously falls backward and flops around like a fish out of water for a few seconds, then stops, maybe turns her head slightly, then stands up as if nothing happened and continues wherever she left off (eating, drinking, picking up feathers, whatever). I don't think it's the new drug as this started long before the new medication. I've asked my vet about this and he said, "There are about twelve different things that could cause that..." It's like she's having a mini seizure except she doesn't lose consciousness. There doesn't seem to be any pattern. It just happens out of the blue.

I've wondered if the pesticide has done this to her. The atropine treatments had marginal results. My vet thought, "We are barking up the wrong tree," with the atropine. So I've stopped. There is another cholinesterase inhibitor you can get over the counter - Benadryl. One dose heavily sedated her so I haven't tried it again.

My biggest concern is what to do if she becomes immobile and cannot walk. I've heard some will care for a pigeon even under these conditions. I don't know if I can let her live unable to get around. The litmus test for me is whether she still enjoys herself - self-feeding, preening, her feathers aren't soiled, playing, quality time with her mate and she is free from any chronic pain. She seems to enjoy herself in spite of all the problems. I honestly can't tell if she is in any discomfort at all, except she gets tired often. But then she wakes up and eagerly does all the things she likes to do. It's the darndest thing I've ever seen.

There's one more thing. I've become a caretaker. I have not been able to get away from the house for more than a few hours or a work shift for at least two months. Her life is completely dependent on my being there. I don't mind this for now but if this goes on indefinitely, I don't know what I'm going to do. I live alone and there is no one who can give her meds. Her care is so specialized - everything is kept exactly the same so she has the least trouble negotiating her food and water. I don't know if she can be boarded for a weekend because wherever I'd take her the food and water dishes would be different. I don't know if she'd be able to eat and drink on her own.

There is a poem I wrote about Frances I'd like to share. Is there a place on this site where I can upload it?

Thanks,

Daniel


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Scuiry said:


> There is a poem I wrote about Frances I'd like to share. Is there a place on this site where I can upload it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Daniel



Hi Daniel,

You can place your poem in the Stories Forum http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f17/

Terry


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*It's Over*

I lost Frances Friday night around 10:30. My last memory of her that morning was seeing her eat her favorite treats with her mate. I had stopped all treatment Wednesday night after what seemed like a near-death experience - she collapsed again with that blank stare that animals have when they die. She revived after about twenty seconds. I couldn't bear to touch her anymore even though the meds were keeping her alive. She was too frail to be handled.

She was about the same for a day and a half - eating, drinking, cooing and playing with her "toys" but still having those "fish out of water" near-fainting spells. I found her Friday night lying flat, face-down in her roost, barely moving. Then, she suddenly seized or tensed up, banging the bottom of the cage once, then "went to sleep". My vet wants to do a necropsy; he thinks we can learn a lot. 

Although she was completely tame, Frances was never attached to me the way I was to her. Her sweet and gentle spirit made me fall in love with her. Someone reminded me yesterday that the measure of our love is how much we grieve. How true. It was such a joy watching her enjoy life to the very end. It gives me comfort knowing I helped make that possible for her.

Daniel


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry for the loss of Frances, Daniel. You and she fought the good fight to the very end. Bless you for loving her as you do.

Terry


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Sorry to hear this Daniel. She knew you loved her and she had a good life. You'll always have to good memories.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry Daniel.

Reti


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry Daniel. You gave her all that you could do. In the end, we will go when it is our time. You gave her a good life. I'm sure she will be missed a lot by her mate. Sorry.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

My condolences on your loss, Daniel. You gave Frances a wonderful life and provided excellent support during this difficult time. It sounds like you have many wonderful memories of this special bird. You were very lucky to have connected!


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## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

*Post Mortem*

I thought some closure to this sad mystery might be helpful. My vet performed a necrospy on Frances yesterday. She had heart disease but she had a widespread cancer that started in her ovaries and went to her brain. She ultimately died of a brain tumor.

An enormous weight has been lifted from my soul. I miss her so, but it is comforting to know nothing on earth could have saved her. I was blessed with a few more months of making her comfortable and happy. It completes the arc of a story that began eight years ago. I have been truly blessed to have been there for her in all her special needs until the very end.

I want to thank you for all your support and sympathies these last few months, especially now. You all care very much. It means a lot to me.

Peace,

Daniel


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Daniel, I am so very sorry. I didn't know Frances personally, but felt like I knew her through your eyes and the very real love you showed every time you wrote about her. She was so lovely and I'm grateful she had you there at the end.

You know, we have a forum "Hall of Love" that we use to post when one of our beloved pigeons dies (or any pet, for that matter) and you may want to honor her by posting there about her life with you. You could put your poem there also.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What a beautiful bird. She was blessed to have such a caring person who loved her so much.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

She certainly was a beauty! What a neat set up you have!


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