# PIGEONS LOVERS BEWARE of DOG TRAINERS



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Recently, I closed a thread in the "Pigeons Wanted / For Sale" section of this forum. And I have been doing a little research, in to the care, concern and safety of pigeons used in this "training". What I found was pretty horrifying.

The reason why I think it is important to share this information, is these people have been visiting this forum, seeking free or "cheap" birds. I was not aware of what this meant, and I assumed that many of you do not either.

DO NOT ASSUME that a person who may have a loft and pigeons, is a pigeon or bird lover. These people kill birds for "fun", and they have found a cheap way to provide birds for their "training". These dog trainers even have a loft design on their site.

http://www.uplandbirddog.com/training/loft.html

Now if you want to research, how the pigeons are used, check this link:

http://www.uplandbirddog.com/training/index.htm

Here are a few excerpts, with the names and email addresses removed, to protect the guilty:

_Message:
Thanks Sam and Blake............the trainer said that I should plant pigeons in short grass 12' or less with some flight feathers pulled and let her chase them. He said it's ok if she kills the bird

(Give her time out to have fun. Get some pigeons, then take your pup out and tie her to a stake or something, pull the flight feathers out of the bird so it can't fly, hold it by the feet and let them flap it's wings while you make exciting noises, like it is really fun. Then toss it over on the ground and chase it, still leaving the dog tied. Do this for a few days, then toss the bird and let her fetch it, with a check cord on her so you can pull her back to you if she decides to not bring it back to you. DO NOT YANK while the bird is in her mouth. Let her hold the bird in mouth a bit while you yourself are acting real excited amd praising her, take hold of the bird while patting her, etc., until she releases it. Then put the dog back on the lead tied up, toss it and chase it and fetch it yourself again, then PUT THE DOG AND BIRD UP. One retrieve only. She must be wanting more. Do not correct the dog for anything, evan if she kills the bird while mouthing it, the only thing you are after is to make her like birds and really want them.) 

Message:
Sounds like you are doing ewxactly the right things. I wouldn't worry about the pup at all catching a trash bird.

Message:
A method I use with whoa for making the dog staunch is placing a pigeon on the ground made incapable of flight, whether by removing flight feathers (best) or locking the wings and making it walk and move around, tossing it a bit at times with my foot etc

I let a couple of kids take her into the field to play for a while when she returned after she napped in the kennel she was introduced to birds, a few pigeons which I teased her with, she came for them as I held one by the legs and let it flap it's wings. After a bit I locked the wings and tossed it, she fetched it back. I let her carry it for a while and unlocked it's wings so it could fly when she set it down. Loved the look on her face when it took flight. She chased a bit and returned to me. I did the same with the second pigeon and then put her up. _ 

I urge everyone, who loves pigeons, to be very careful, when giving or selling birds. These people are wolves, wearing sheeps clothing.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for this post Warren. What a bunch of sadistic slimebuckets.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Disgusting, absolutely disgusting! I don't know how these people can live with themselves. They mustn't even really care for these dogs either because if they can use pigeons as "toys" for their dogs to maul, then what does that say about them. I suspect that these "bird dog" owners are only interested in competition, prizes and money in some fashion. A "True" dog lover would not treat a pigeon like this or think that it is right. Most people who care about their pets whether they be dogs, cats or birds, would never condone the use of a living creature for these purposes.


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

In Some States This illegal activity


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

What is sad but true Its been going on for decades. Now I had a uncle that did this back in the 50s. But they put the bird asleep set it in grass and it was not harmed that way. You tuck the head under the wing stroke the neck some and pooth they sleep. He showed me this in about mid 60s. It surprised me that it could be done. Then when you want to pick the bird up pull the head out from under the wing And it wakes up. But I think alot do not know this method anymore. Met a person. that used to use a rod and reel on the birds to train his dogs. If the bird flew he reeled it back in. This was about 1962. What would be good is if a person made a training decoy to replace live bird training. Then the problem would resolve. I have seen adds in the paper befor looking for birds to train dogs. As long as us the pigeon breeders do not sell give or what. to dog trainers then we help reduce there axcess to them at least.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Owners Beware*

As if our feather friends do not have enough too worry about, there are still people coming onto this site to acquire birds for dog training. There was recently a couple of more sites closed for this reason.

As a responsible pet owner, take some time to research who you may send your birds to. Beware of wolves wearing sheep's clothing !


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the warning Warren, even though I could not read your post to the end (too disturbing), it is important to know that those things happen, unfortunately.
But how on earth can we possibly know if someone is a real animal lover or not? I guess it is impossible through the internet. Or does anyone have any "tips"?

Reti


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

that is sick raising pigeons or birds as food for us is one thing but this sounds more like torture! i personally have a large strong dog but i was planning on using him as a "guard" to protect my pigeons! he is amazing at keeping other animals off our land. (other then OUR cat he knows hes NOT ALLOWED to TOUCH HIM!)


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

shouldnt this be illegal? i mean its NOT LEGAL to torture dogs and cats! why should this be allowed???? and how on earth can the people do such a thing??? id love to go to this forum and talk to them all!! hearing things like this is so painfull and the fact that people like this exist makes ME SICK no matter what animal it is weather its a snake lizard pigeon RAT (YES RAT) CHICKEn dog or cat NOTHING deserves this sort of treatment i JUST wish there was something i could do about it  the thing is people are like OH WHO CARES ITS ONLY A STUPID PIGEON but if someone was doing this to a PUPPY OR A CAT THEY WOULD FLIP THEIR LIDS! I THINK discriminating agaisnt animal sspecies based on how smart they are is totally wrong! if that were the case then EVERYONE SHOULD be HORRIFIED that we eat pigs because they are smarter then BOTH DOGS AND CATS!


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## PigeonSitter10 (Feb 18, 2005)

this could hurt them bad.i mean i wish i could call godzilla to get a dog get the guy pull off his leg and let his dog bite and snarl at him


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Reti said:


> Thanks for the warning Warren, even though I could not read your post to the end (too disturbing), it is important to know that those things happen, unfortunately.
> But how on earth can we possibly know if someone is a real animal lover or not? I guess it is impossible through the internet. Or does anyone have any "tips"?
> 
> Reti


 Yes Reti,

This topic, and people who disregard life, makes me angry. It makes me so sick, I must log off for the day. I want to go hug my grandson, kiss my wife,  and go to my loft. Tell them all how special they are, and how much I love them. This is starting to make me cry.


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## Norwich-guy (Mar 6, 2005)

I had a dog trainer phone me about 10 years ago asking about my "culls". I asked him what he wanted to do with the birds. He had no problem going into detail what would happen to the birds. I was shocked that someone could be that cruel, and had a few choice words for him.These people have to be watched, the way this guy got my phone # shocked me. I used to be the person that the S.P.C.A contacted with any bird that they had rescued. So these people had my phone #.Now don't get me wrong i know the S.P.C.A didn't no what this dog trainer was up to, but it shows how far they will go to get pigeons.At our next pigeon meeting i made everyone aware what these clowns were up too.To this day i don't know anyone who has let any of their birds go to a dog trainer.


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## dogsdirtbike24 (Apr 14, 2005)

cateyes said:


> that is sick raising pigeons or birds as food for us is one thing but this sounds more like torture! i personally have a large strong dog but i was planning on using him as a "guard" to protect my pigeons! he is amazing at keeping other animals off our land. (other then OUR cat he knows hes NOT ALLOWED to TOUCH HIM!)



I hope this doesnt affect the help or advice I would otherwise get from this forum concerning my racers and I am sure I will be flamed grandly for this but I will risk it. 

I hunt with my dog. I also train using pigeons. I do not abuse my dog. I have a young pup that we are training to do upland hunting. I plant racers in a field my dog finds them, they fly home. Pigeons are not "toys" for my dog. If she ever mishandled a bird or killed it while retrieving, we would stop using birds until the problem was corrected. I do not aim to tourture my pigeons. 
I have tried to give them the best life possible and when I am done training with them I will keep them in my loft because they are fun to have around. 
I spent $300 building a new loft for my birds, I just spent $60 taking one of them to the vet bc it was attacked by a hawk on a training flight. The goal is not to tourture pigeons, the goal is to train my dog. Some dog trainers are mean to birds, but this does not mean everyone is tourturing their birds. Do some research before condeming all dog trainers, a dog is not supposed to tear the bird apart, this makes any bird retrived while hunting unfit for human consumption. I dont view this as any different than raising pigeons for food. They are raised for a purpose. 

As for how to tell if someone is using birds for training, you could always ask them. As for being wolves in sheeps clothing, if that is how you view dog trainers, then I am proud to be a wolf in wolves clothing.

Delete my account, do whatever will make you feel better. I hang out on this fourm because I want information to better train my birds and take care of them. 

Wait a sec....ok now I am ready. Turn up the heat.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Boy did you just screw up LOL , you are in the lions den here son , Some here value animals over human life even , I sence a lynching coming on LOL
I understand about dogs and dog training, it is all about the dogs and there is a lot to be said for a well trained hunting dog. A good dog is soft with a bird.

But on the same hand I won't let my culls go to dog trainers.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

I plant racers in a field my dog finds them, they fly home


OK im kind of confused what you mean here... YOu say that you plant them in a field what do you mean by that? you clip their wings hide them in a field and let your dog find them? and then u say "they fly home" how do they fly home if your dog has them in its mouth "retriving them" also how can they FLy home if their wings are clippped? ANd if their wings are not clipped how do you "plant them" in the field then for your dog to find?? wouldnt they be up in trees? please be more clear! I am not agaisnt using animals as food as im sure MOST of us do eat meat! but to subject an animal to WING Clipping then having it return home in a "dogs mouth" just seems like pure torture to me for the bird being so helpless and terrified i just dont understand how someone could do such a thing?? it just seems so cruel and heartless? and im nOT just saying that cause its birds being used even if it was a RAT you did it with id still think its cruel no matter what! u cant compare this to raising animals for food animals raised for food (IF Done the hUMANE WAY!!!) are not "tortured" before they die their death is usually QUICk and they dont usually know what hits them. (from what ive seen)


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dogsdirtbike24,

If you take a look @ the "About Pigeon Talk" section and look under Policies and 
Terms of Use you will understand why some people get upset at posts like these.
It clearly states that participation in P-T Forums implies agreement with its'
rules of conduct. Please take a look @ #2. It doesn't help in the face of this
implied agreement to have a "bring it on" attitude. 

fp


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## dogsdirtbike24 (Apr 14, 2005)

To make a broad statement that all dog trainers are tourturers is one of those things that helps promote bias and bigotry. As the post following mine states there are people on this forum who have no idea how a pigeon is used but with the attitude burn them all! Feed them to thier own dogs! What is that promoting? Ignorance of how a dog is trained is no excuse for condemning dog trainers. My point with the post is that you cannot group people together. Dog trainers as a group do not tourture birds, everyone is different. Everyone on this board holds thier own bias and predjudices. You dont have to agree with someone, but dont let ignorance be an excuse. If you are going to hang all dog trainers, then educate yourself about how these dogs are trained. Hiding behind rules does not change the fact that you are clumping a "group". Everyone is different. I wont apologise for what I have said. I am sorry that there are rules to protect against a 2 way information exchangge. I think both sides need to be seen before we are all hung and condemned to die. This is no different then taking a certain race, or illness and saying they all...fill in whatever here.... Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion.

All I ask is that someone out there looks beyond what they "think" or "suspect". Perception is a very dangeous thing when it is all we rely on. I know you all love your birds, but dont condemn others for thier views. If I must hide what I am then I would not think it unreasonable for you to keep predjudiced views to yourself either. You dont have to agree but you dont have to condemn. It is God's place to judge.

I am sorry for being long winded and preachy.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dogsdirtbike24, 

You're absolutely right and that people shouldn't judge or group people together as all the same. There are bad and good folks in every group of people. The subject discussed is a controversial one on this board after all it's a PIGEON GROUP, not a dog training group. The subject matter is a little off topic here to say the least. I myself will not pass a judgement on others until I've walked a mile in their shoes or have all the facts. I think you seem reasonable in what you've said but this is not the place to discuss pigeons to be used for training dogs. You will not find many or any here that are open to this idea or welcome it with open arms. I think it's best you just leave it alone now and realize that you could be on the wrong forum. 


Thank you,


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Dogsdirtbike24,
> 
> You're absolutely right and that people shouldn't judge or group people together as all the same. There are bad and good folks in every group of people. The subject discussed is a controversial one on this board after all it's a PIGEON GROUP, not a dog training group. The subject matter is a little off topic here to say the least. I myself will not pass a judgement on others until I've walked a mile in their shoes or have all the facts. I think you seem reasonable in what you've said but this is not the place to discuss pigeons to be used for training dogs. You will not find many or any here that are open to this idea or welcome it with open arms. I think it's best you just leave it alone now and realize that you could be on the wrong forum.
> 
> ...


Thank you too and well said PigeonPal. I've been trying to figure a response to the dog trainers that seem to have landed here and defend their use of pigeons in training their dogs to hunt, but... *sigh*... my responses kept ending in offering to be surrogate pigeon, so I haven't posted...


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

It's the torture aspect that I find so revolting. I don't like the guys who cull their pigeons by breaking their necks, but this is far worse. What Warren found on those sites about disabling pigeons and then letting dogs tear them up...disgusting. Perhaps not every dog trainer does that, and that's good, but it's awfully disturbing that many apparently do. 

As to those looking to find homes for extra pigeons yes, it's hard to tell via the Internet. I think you can tell more over the phone by the person's attitude and the things they say. Engage potential buyers in conversation. Ask questions. Express your own love for your birds and see how they respond. Read between the lines--it's not just what they say, but what they don't say. I guess the other thing you can do is to not let your pigeons go cheap, even when you have too many. I doubt many dog trainers are going to pay a decent price for a pigeon just to let their dog maul it.


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

another thing is how else can we express how we feel or make others realize how horrible it is what they do? i think some people are in denial and dont actualy "think" of the terrible thing they are doing...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> As to those looking to find homes for extra pigeons yes, it's hard to tell via the Internet. I think you can tell more over the phone by the person's attitude and the things they say. Engage potential buyers in conversation. Ask questions. Express your own love for your birds and see how they respond. Read between the lines--it's not just what they say, but what they don't say. I guess the other thing you can do is to not let your pigeons go cheap, even when you have too many. I doubt many dog trainers are going to pay a decent price for a pigeon just to let their dog maul it.


There was a thread in the last couple of months about adoption practices. Reti's inquiry reminded me of that and I couldn't help but think how that might 
translate from the adoption world to the sales world. I think your points make a good base for conscientious sellers to proceed from. 

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*I Will Turn Up The Heat*

To "the wolf in wolves clothing " if I may add my thoughts to you. 
Pigeon-Talk is a pigeon advocate website. You must have certainly either ignored or missed completly The Forum Rules of Conduct.You need to read the policy and terms as earlier sugessted by one of our members who truly appreciates the pigeon. 

Agreement #2 states:*Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting,killing,eating torturing or any inhumane treatment of pigeons and/or any animal will not be tolorated on this website.

You stated earlier that "I hunt with my dog.I also train using pigeons." You also said the you plant racers in your field and you "do not aim to torture my pigeons." It doesn't take an animal genious to understand that even though you may take precautions in your training, something could go wrong in the training program whereby the dog catches your "training aid" if I may say, and injures or kills it.Gee, I wonder if I was a pigeon, would I find it fun to be chased by a barking dog showing his teeth at me as he was chasing after me? 

I have owned dogs and cats a lot longer than I have a pigeon, but INSTINCT is a sense that triggers in their brain that tells them, hey a bird, I need to get it and do something with it.

You said "I am sure that I will be flamed for this but I will risk it." What did you expect sir, a hug and welcome?

It is nice to know that your pigeons "are fun to have around" but where is the LOVE?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Posted: Bird Lovers Only*



dogsdirtbike24 said:


> I hope this doesnt affect the help or advice I would otherwise get from this forum concerning my racers and I am sure I will be flamed grandly for this but I will risk it.
> 
> I hunt with my dog. I also train using pigeons. I do not abuse my dog. I have a young pup that we are training to do upland hunting. I plant racers in a field my dog finds them, they fly home. Pigeons are not "toys" for my dog. If she ever mishandled a bird or killed it while retrieving, we would stop using birds until the problem was corrected. I do not aim to tourture my pigeons.
> I have tried to give them the best life possible and when I am done training with them I will keep them in my loft because they are fun to have around.
> ...


Dear DirtBike,

I see you use the term "Racers", I sincerely doubt, you have ever gone to the expense, time, trouble or effort to ever race your pigeons. 

Your outlay of a total of $360, would not cover the expense I occur to maintain my racers for a single month. Most of my breeders were acquired for $2500 to $3500 each. Would you seriously use such a pigeon for training a dog ? Would any fancier of racing pigeons, allow one of their top race winners to be used in such a fashion ?

Many of our members have a pigeon or two inside their homes. They are considered a member of the family, are very much loved and adored. For even a second, do you think they would ever dream, of allowing their pet to be used for dog training ?

If you are honest with yourself, you maintain a loft of homers, for the primary purpose of using them to train your dog. Perhaps, it is cheaper that way, because you can use them over and over again. Your purpose in visiting our site, is to gleem information that you can use to maintain your little coop, and your $360 investment. 

Your "passion" is not with your pigeons, it is with your dog. Your $360 investment, was not to keep a healthy flock of beloved pigeons, but an "investment" in training the dog you love. 

Your anger, and invitation to "turn up the heat", at the suggestion that your actions are not in the best interests of the pigeons, but with your dog and his training. Indicates to me, and other reasonable members of this forum, that your love and passion, is with your dog and hunting.

Let's face it, your real passion, is taking your dog out on a crisp fall day, and shooting and killing birds. That is your "sport", and what you do for fun. Pigeons for you, are a "tool" to achieve your end result.

Now this is a forum for members, who advocate the love, protection, and preservation of birds, particularly pigeons. So what did you expect ? That we would welcome you and your ideals with open arms ? You wondered into our site, our forum, in a belligerent manner. Frankly, your attitude is what gives your "sport" a bad name. Just like some of your fellow "sportsmen" who hunt on posted land, damage fences and other property, and run their dogs on private property without asking permission. Then they act indignant, when asked to leave.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

rosey_love said:


> I think that they should be able to do what they want. People do not realize what they do wrong but if they dont realize it than they dont realize it I guess. Its their choice and I do not think we can do anything about it. It happens in the wild all the time but its just life.
> I also have a concern about how everyone here thinks its wrong to eat pigeons. People eat chickens all the time but it just seems normal so what makes pigeons so different?
> I am not trying to start a fight here but I just felt that this was the right time to do it. I though you might want to here "my" opinion.


Dear Rosey Love,

As a matter of fact, we are not interested in your opinion, as to your right to eat pigeons. If that is your desire, or opinion, then please keep it to yourself. You agreed to abide by the rules set forth on this forum. In case you may have forgotten, then I will list them here again for you.

Forum Rules of Conduct 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Participation in the Pigeon-Talk forums implies aggreement with the following:

1. Pigeon Talk forums offer support, empowerment, education and entertainment to pigeon enthusiasts in every aspect of this fancy. Since each user is responsible for their own posts, please use discretion when weighing the value of information found in these forums.

2. While we encourage an exchange of opinions in these forums, please note that we have specific 'off limit' topics that you should become familiar with:

* This is a pigeon advocate website.
* We advocate protection and humane treatment of 'all pigeons on this planet'.
* Topics relating to the advocacy of hunting, killing, eating, torturing or any inhumane treatment of pigeons and/or any animal, will not be tolerated on this website. If you hold an opinion about your 'right' to 'lethal culling' of unwanted pigeons and/or any animal, please keep it to yourself.
* We advocate only 'responsible culling' of unwanted pigeons or doves. 'Responsible culling' is defined as: Taking the responsibility for finding proper homes for your unwanted pigeons. Please do not try to give us your 'justifications' for 'lethal culling', we have heard it all. Please just go away.
* This website advocates topics relating to the humane treatment of all feral pigeons.
* Our discussions encourage 'humane habitat modifications'. We reject all discussions about 'lethal' means of control.

3. We require civil and ethical conduct on all forums. Personal attacks on other members, or Pigeons.com itself, will not be tolerated. If asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and administrators.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Carl Gulledge (bigbird)
__________________


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

*Turn up the heat?*

What are you, George W. Bush? It seems like everyone now invites war with their opinions. However, I must agree with most on this site. The thought of a pigeon being used for dog training purposes no matter how well the dog handles the bird, does not seem caring to me. If I was a pigeon in the mouth of a dog, no matter how gentle it was, I'd be scared out of my mind. And to have to go through that over and over again, is like living a nightmare over and over again for the rest of your life. I think pigeons have feelings enough to know fear.

Why can't decoys be used instead? There are enough life-like ones out there anyways. And if you're not interested in hurting the pigeons in your training, why then are you training dogs to hunt pigeons? It must be that in the future you are going to use dogs to hunt real birds otherwise all of this training would be a complete waste.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Is there a reason for trying to disrespect our president here ? very tacky


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

dogsdirtbike24 said:


> To make a broad statement that all dog trainers are tourturers is one of those things that helps promote bias and bigotry. As the post following mine states there are people on this forum who have no idea how a pigeon is used but with the attitude burn them all! Feed them to thier own dogs! What is that promoting? Ignorance of how a dog is trained is no excuse for condemning dog trainers. My point with the post is that you cannot group people together. Dog trainers as a group do not tourture birds, everyone is different. Everyone on this board holds thier own bias and predjudices. You dont have to agree with someone, but dont let ignorance be an excuse. If you are going to hang all dog trainers, then educate yourself about how these dogs are trained. Hiding behind rules does not change the fact that you are clumping a "group". Everyone is different. I wont apologise for what I have said. I am sorry that there are rules to protect against a 2 way information exchangge. I think both sides need to be seen before we are all hung and condemned to die. This is no different then taking a certain race, or illness and saying they all...fill in whatever here.... Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion.
> 
> All I ask is that someone out there looks beyond what they "think" or "suspect". Perception is a very dangeous thing when it is all we rely on. I know you all love your birds, but dont condemn others for thier views. If I must hide what I am then I would not think it unreasonable for you to keep predjudiced views to yourself either. You dont have to agree but you dont have to condemn. It is God's place to judge.
> 
> I am sorry for being long winded and preachy.


Dogsdirtbike24,

If the topic being discussed was purely racial profiling or negative stereotypes against certain groups of people, then your statements above are right on. It is not fair to take a certain group of people and condemn every single one of them because of the actions of just some of them. I would agree with you one hundred per cent.

But.....that is not the topic. The topic is the use of pigeons for dog training.

I am glad to hear that you and Mike027 have said that you care for your birds and try to ensure that they are not harmed when they are used for training. But again, many other dog trainers DO let their training birds get mangled and/or killed during the training process. So, now -you- have to practice some understanding as to why many of the members here would be wary of providing their birds to ANY dog trainers. You also have to try to understand that this form of communication here, (the internet), allows people to "be" anyone they want to be and allows them to say anything they want to say.....You and Mike027 could be telling us the absolute truth about your birds and training methods and no doubt ARE being honest...but again, you have to understand why the members and moderators here would rather err on the side of caution, just in case.

Pigeons.com is a unique place, even among pigeon fanciers, I think. Just as there are many dog trainers who use their pigeons as "tools" for training, there are probably many racers or or show people who also view their pigeons as just "tools" for winning races and shows. They have no emotional attachment to their birds and I am not condemning that...that is just the way it is sometimes for people in that business. But, I'm sure the pigeon people who are like that, do not always feel comfortable here at Pigeons.com either....the majority of our membership seems to actually love our pigeons, whether they be loft pigeons, house pets or feral flocks that have been "adopted."

I think it all boils down to this....Yes, everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinions...no question. But....most people know when they come to a place like Pigeons.com that the membership here is NOT going to be receptive to practices that could be considered cruel or harmful to any pigeons, no matter how those practices are explained or justified. That's just the way it is.

Linda


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Warren your response to Rosey was nothing short of rude, but because she doesn't have the "right" opinion nothing will be said, I see nothing but narrow minded attacks here but as long as they have the "right" opinion it is ok.
As for dog trainers, I am neither for or against, their passion is the dogs and mine is my birds. 
How many birds a year do you or others loose in training ? what is their fate when they don't make it home ? When I loose some to an overfly their fate is the same as your losses,the fact is most die a bad death ,you live in a glass house Warren. 
This site has made me "think" about many things, and in some cases it has even changed my way of thinking to a degree, one is how I deal with my culls, I now find homes for them, the narrow mindedness used to run others off serves no purpose, maybe just giving people somthing to "think" about may be a better route. There is something to be learned here by all .


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

*This site has made me "think" about many things, and in some cases it has even changed my way of thinking to a degree, one is how I deal with my culls, I now find homes for them, the narrow mindedness used to run others off serves no purpose, maybe just giving people somthing to "think" about may be a better route. There is something to be learned here by all .*

Hi Scott,

I just wanted to say that I think it's great that the site has led you to "rethink" some of your ways of thinking to a degree....you are absolutely right that there is something to be learned here by all.

I know that many of us can appear to be narrow-minded....I think it's mainly because when controversial topics like this come up, emotions can run high. I think you and anyone else who "knows" me here, knows that I like to see opposing opinions in posts discussed calmly and with respect because I believe that is the best way to promote and gain understanding and knowledge. Unfortunately, when emotions run high, that is not always possible and some threads just crumble into a "flame war."

The rules of conduct at the forum may appear to be narrow and restrictive, but we all agreed to them when we joined and I do believe that following them helps to promote peaceful exchanges on topics when they are folllowed. 

Linda


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## rena paloma (Jan 30, 2005)

*misanthropist*

this is the most disgusting news i have herd all year. maybe in the past couple years, i feed the ferals in the park and most dog owners make sure their pets dont chase birds. just imagine the little pigeons faceial expression as a big drooling monster racest towards him..."pull the wing flights out" that is abuse, and bad for the physical and mental health of the bird. responsible dog trainers dont use other animals inhumainely to train their dogs, i love dogs. it is the people that i get mad at. genarally, i think sometimes that people are scum. only people that think they are gods...

(in their next life, they will come back as animals used as targets..if there is a second chance for these scumbags)
queen pigeon


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## cateyes (Apr 16, 2005)

i hate the term wolf in sheeps clothing because in reality wolves are not really all that bad nor are they dangerous (unless you are a sheep) they have also suffered a lot ignorance and are really misunderstood animals!  they only eat to survive they dont "torture" helpless animals as a hobby! they only do what they HAVe to in order to live!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Garye,

I deleted your post, so that other moderators can review it's content, to determine if it is appropriate for this pigeon forum.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Dogsdirtbike24,
If you take a look at the general topic headings here, you will find that while 
much is devoted to pigeons, there is also room devoted to the topic of birds
in general. Whether or not you think what you do is respectful towards pigeons, the end goal is to use the pigeon to train your dog to aid you in killing
birds, period, the end. This is not a comfort for the majority of folks who come
to this site to express and share their love for pigeons specifically or birds in
general. It is hunting specifically that caused the extinction of the passenger 
pigeon. My monetary outlays are not nearly as great as Warrens, however,
the outlay that I currently have for 3 birds, makes your investment pale. Any-
one who thinks they can get away w/having a loft on the cheap the way you 
have couldn't possibly be investing in the nutritional aids, rotational meds, vets
bills etc. that by necessity are incurred. All this, w/out the building materials 
for the loft.....that would be additional. That you would like to maintain a cheap loft so that you can save money and not have to buy "cheap" pigeons
each season doesn't make me feel so much better about what you do.
It just sickens me more. Your birds are prisoners to a life without love or 
caring. Prisoners to a forced relationship w/you and your dog(s) that they
find no joy in whatsoever. Even tho you feed and water them, I doubt
they are happy to see you, 'cause they wonder what the visit will bring them
'this time'.

fp


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I dont know really how you kill a pigeon when you look straight into its eyes and it looks back, at that point who ever can go on for a stupid reason like that is cold hearted.

I'll never reconize these pigs as people. and i truley hat what they are doing but the loft plans are actually pretty good for beginners.

Elvis


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## dogsdirtbike24 (Apr 14, 2005)

There are those who think it is cruel to keep any animal caged, especially birds, no matter how they are treated. 

As for my "cheap" birds who live "cheap" lives, I live in the suburbs, a 4 x 4 x 4 loft with an aviary is the best I can do for the 6 birds who live there. $300 is what it cost me to build the loft. Sorry if I got some good deals on lumber and that makes you mad.

We will be racing this year. I have 2 birds I am very proud of and think will do well. I like my pigeons, I make a point not to let my dog mistreat them. 

Too many times people "think" something about others. Please realize you "know" nothing about me. 

I realize this is a pigeon advocasy forum, this does not give you the right to speak badly of others be they dog trainers or anything else.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

I will not continue my argument further but i have one thing to say.

If they are going to do that do it professionally and at least treat the birds with respect not as a joke.

r.i.p all birds ruthlessly teared apart.

Elvis


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

dogsdirtbike24 said:


> As for my "cheap" birds who live "cheap" lives, I live in the suburbs, a 4 x 4 x 4 loft with an aviary is the best I can do for the 6 birds who live there. $300 is what it cost me to build the loft. Sorry if I got some good deals on lumber and that makes you mad.
> 
> **You have mistated my comments, and not understood the point. No, I'm
> not "mad" at the thought of cheap lumber. Read the post again and you will
> ...


**Once again, I think you need to read the post again. There was no slander
included in it. Comments on information that you provide are not tantamount
to character assasination and shouldn't be construed in such a manner. You
have pointedly (pun intended) evaded commenting on the purpose of why
you would use one species to train a dog for the purpose of killing another.
Just the facts.

fp


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

It is very easy to find reasons to justify a behavior, but that does not make the behavior right. They use fake birds in compatitions why can't you use them in training. To cause unnecessary fear to any thinking creature is wrong.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sad*

Sad to hear what people do to birds. I have the hardess time selling birds because you really don't know who you sell to. I can't give them away because the wrong people take them. I have to ask alot of questions and pray ot God to helping choose the right the people for my birds.


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## kola2002 (Dec 13, 2004)

ok did you or did you not ask for opinions on this??? rosey just gave you her opition like you asked for, her views and what she thinks on it, thats what you asked for is it not??? you didnt say what you wanted to hear or anything like that, you asked for opinions and thats what you got.... so stop makin her seem like the bad person here because shes not shes just sayin what she thinks.... i personally dont think there is anything wrong with someone saying how they feel and what they think about something.... i know rosey personally and you can even say we are flesh and blood related... dont be gettin mad about someones views thats stupid even if this is a site about pigeons and you guys asked and yeah so stop gettin mad at her... its stupid and its just an opinion... this is not kola2002 this is his daughter jsut so you all know


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I see this entire thread as going no where, I think it needs to be added to the closed file. There are just a lot of mean things being said here. Seems it has gotten off track as some other posts have.


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## kola2002 (Dec 13, 2004)

yes i agree with you, close it this is stupid and goin no where


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## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

_*"Too many times people "think" something about others. Please realize you "know" nothing about me. 

I realize this is a pigeon advocasy forum, this does not give you the right to speak badly of others be they dog trainers or anything else."*_

I don't think anyone here is "guessing" or "assuming" anything about you. You say you hunt birds and you say you use pigeons to train your birds, period. That's what people are expressing distaste for. You knew it would happen, why are you defensive? 

Also, you're right, this is a pigeon advocacy forum and that does give people here the right to speak poorly of people who in their eyes, act inhumanely to pigeons.

I don't want to lecture you or condemn you for the fact that you hunt, but I would ask you to maybe examine why you do it and consider stopping. I am a former hunter myself and was brought up by a father who started me squirrel hunting at age 8 with my own .410. I was brought up in Florida and most of my friends hunted, it was a cultural thing, I get that. I totally understand the whole "field and stream" romance of it, however, I had something happen when I was 14 that stripped everything down to reality. Long story short, I saw 2 doves on the ground and shot one. The other flew away but came back. He kept flying away a few feet and coming back to get the other, again and again and agian. I realized i had shot it's mate. In that one instance I realized that the end result, everytime I pulled the trigger was the taking of a life. I was killing for sport. I would ask you to ask yourself, next time you're looking down the barrel about to fire, "Will I starve if I don't pull the trigger?" If you answer no, then you're just killing something for fun, bottom line. If that bothers you even a little bit then you may want to consider not doing it.

As a species, we raise farm animals who's only destiny is to have the ultimate act of violence committed on them so we can consume their bodies and wear their skins. Do we really need to do it for fun too?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Dear Members and Fellow Moderators,

I feel the same as many here and this thread has come to it's end. We are not gaining from bickering back and forth about issues that really have no relevance to Pigeon Talk. The use of pigeons for dog training should never have been brought up here because most of us DO NOT agree with it's purpose. I also feel that members are getting their feelings hurt because of our vast differences of opinions about hunting, religion, polictics etc. etc therefore, it's not productive whatsoever. The subject has been brought to our attention and the issues have been discussed. The rules of conduct have been provided and the points have been made. The use of some harsh words and very passionate views here is detracting from the purpose of the group. Let's get back to pigeons and our love of them. This dog training crap doesn't belong here.


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