# Baby with hard crop



## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

My 20 day old baby pigeon has got a hard crop. its parents are refusing to feed it now. I am trying to tube feed it some water but it tends to throw it up.

Please help me help her


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear this.

Have you tried a drop or two of olive oil to get it moving, that will help move it thru.

Have you looked down the throat to see if there might be canker, have your birds had it at all?

Have you put any ACV in the water, just a drop? That may improve motility.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> My 20 day old baby pigeon has got a hard crop. its parents are refusing to feed it now. I am trying to tube feed it some water but it tends to throw it up.
> 
> Please help me help her


Warriec, what are you currently feeding the baby? Is it possible to mix it (if in 
a powdered formula consistancy w/an acv mix of water? If so, I'd mix two 
tablespoons of water to the gallon of water and mix the instant formula w/that.
Otherwise, I'd tube this mixture to the baby for now.

Can you tell us about any other symptoms that you are noticing? How about
any abnormal feathering or lack there of in the lower mandible/crop area?
Any abnormal odors associated w/the baby's droppings?
Are you able to reverse gavage the baby w/tube and syringe?

Also, what meds do you have on hand or readily accessible in your
living vacinity??

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

the baby was fine on monday. on tuesday morning i noticed that it had suddenly lost lots of weight and was on its side. I noticed that the crop was smaller and harder. I gave some water thru a tube. It got much better but then I noticed that it was passing water thru the body quiet fast but the crop still remained hard.

I know that I might lose this baby because its extreamely hot and humid in Sri Lanka and dehydration sets in very fast.

I would like to know the cause of this. I don't think its any disease like canker as there is no other symtom than the hard crop.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

All I can think of is to keep on giving him water.
Is it possible he swallowed something too big to digest?

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

warriec said:


> the baby was fine on monday. on tuesday morning i noticed that it had suddenly lost lots of weight and was on its side. I noticed that the crop was smaller and harder. I gave some water thru a tube. It got much better but then I noticed that it was passing water thru the body quiet fast but the crop still remained hard.
> 
> I know that I might lose this baby because its extreamely hot and humid in Sri Lanka and dehydration sets in very fast.
> 
> I would like to know the cause of this. I don't think its any disease like canker as there is no other symtom than the hard crop.



I think it's either bacterial or canker Warriec and if this bird is in crisis, you
may lose it if you don't act decisively. Sometimes you can't see canker
and may not have "other" symptoms. Yet on necropsy, the body is
riddled with it. Mucous can also become quite hardened as I'm treating
a baby right now who had an incredibly hard and swollen area under the
lower mandible from a combination of bacterial infection and canker. Remember, that if the baby is weakened from something else, canker is
an opportunistic disease which will take advantage of a situation.
What do you have on hand for meds?

fp


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hard crop*

One pigeon rescue I had last fall, who died, had eaten a couple of French fries ("chips" in England, or potatoes cut in long thick slabs or strips -- don't know if they have this in India, and don't recall your travel background right now). Some of the fries were pointed at one end, and had stuck in the crop, pointed end down. They had been fried in grease or oil, thus they had not had time to soak up water in the crop and soften and pass into the proventriculus, and were lodged pointed end down in the skin of the crop. Pigeon felt like it had a hard pad in its crop.

I don't know if this was the primary cause of the bird's problems. It was starving, and the hard potato French fries may have happened late during the early or the late stages of the pigeon's problems. They may or may not have been blocking the lower opening of the crop. But they hadn't passed through. I still have a piece of one of the French fries.

Does your pigeon have access to large things it may consider food, or large insects or whatever? Anything indigestible, or slow to digest, which would or could create an obstruction?

Wild idea: could it have swallowed a feather which went in and didn't come out, while it was preening? 

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Larry, I read somewhere that the potato was poisonous to birds, I couldn't
help but think of all the ferals I've seen flipping them up in the air in fast food
parking lots and inner city sidewalks. I think this twenty day old baby though,
is one of Warriecs and hoping that it has had no such inclination or opportunity.

fp


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

fp and warriec,

This s a link from PT, earlier: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/archive/index.php/t-9444.html


> Pigeons suffer from a variety of ailments peculiar to themselves, the most common being the Paramyxo virus and throat canker. The virus causes birds to appear fluffed up, unbalanced or dizzy. They may walk in circles, throw seeds in the air when eating, hang their heads upside down (star gazing) or have fits. No veterinary treatment is available as far as we know but the pigeon can recover after a lengthy period of rest and care. However, he or she must be kept separate from other birds for at least 6 weeks. *Canker or Trichomoniasis seems most common in young pigeons aged between 2 and 5 weeks. It is detected by a swollen throat containing yellow/white button-like cheesy growths, wet or bad smelling discharge from the beak and unwillingness to fly. Depending on the severity, it may be very difficult for the bird to eat or breath. This disease in young birds is fatal but can be treated with drugs such as flagyl (metronidazole) or spartrix (carnidazole).* Crop-feeding may be necessary while healing is underway. Please do not attempt to scrape away these growths unless they are severely restricting breathing, as this may damage the lining of the throat. Keep the patient away from other birds. As with dealing with any animal, please observe common-sense hygiene. Wash hands throughly before and after handling any wild pigeons.
> 
> ...
> *
> ...


Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

warriec said:


> the baby was fine on monday. on tuesday morning i noticed that it had suddenly lost lots of weight and was on its side. I noticed that the crop was smaller and harder. I gave some water thru a tube. It got much better but then I noticed that it was passing water thru the body quiet fast but the crop still remained hard.
> 
> I know that I might lose this baby because its extreamely hot and humid in Sri Lanka and dehydration sets in very fast.
> 
> I would like to know the cause of this. I don't think its any disease like canker as there is no other symtom than the hard crop.



Hi warriec,



You can carefully massage and palpate the Crop both to help loosen the mass, and also to investigate it.

Also check the skin there covering the Crop and look for any yellowish areas or discolorations.


As others have mentione already, ACV-Water would definitely be a good idea for him...


Abcesses can make it seem like there is a firm lump and these can be of various bacteria kinds and are serious.

...or, it can be as simple as inadequately hydrated food kinds, which have sort of hardened there and are not passing.

What has his diet been?


If his parents have been feeding him, what do you provide for the parents to eat?


What were the last poops like, color wise, consistancy wise?


Good luck..!


Phil
LAs Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, I've seen this written description Larry, and had many other actual
presentations w/hands on rescues in babies and adults. It also can come
w/more than one other ailment as well. I have a rescue right now I'm calling
CAM (short for Clinical Avian Medicine), as it presented w/so many classic
symptoms/ailments, but it is still alive and battling, knock on wood.

It would still be helpful to know what meds that Warriec keeps on hand
to be able to help this baby with suggestions. If there is something that
would be helpful that he doesn't have or doesn't have a likely substitute
for, we can deal w/that as well.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

from the description its canker or mucus dired up, right now I have nothing in hand. its 4 am in the morning and shops are closed. any suggestions would be great. I'll buy them soon as shops open.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, here we go with the medication differences that go w/being from different
countries, Warriec. The vet I have and I believe Reti's vet as well, doesn't 
believe that it's a problem to give baby pigeons Baytril. If you can get some
Baytril and Metronidazole (also called Flagyl or sometimes Fishzole), I would
use this combination while still using the ACV water mixture for Candiasis.
I would try and get some Nystatin, though and this would cover a whole
lot of bases for crop illnesses. Please let us know how you fare and best
of luck to you w/your baby.

PS--mucous from a bacterial infection can amass and become quite hard.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I will try and keep you guys posted. Why does this happen when the other young are all healthy.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Spartrix or carnidozole available in India?*

fp, warriec,

I was looking (and have looked at other times prior to this, on internet), to see what one can get hold of in India.

Still haven't found the right keywords or search terms yet: pharmacy, veterinarian whatever. 

If I were in India and wanted to check prices or sources or availability, on-line, how would I go about searching (in English language?). 

Anyway, the reason I quoted Brad in my prior post was to point out that it seems Spartrix or carnidozole is available in India, since the source of the article was the *Animal Welfare Board of India*. 

Warriec, how many pigeons do you have? 

I could consider getting you some meds mailed from Germany, for future needs.

I had a pack of 20 doses of Spartrix for pigeons (one tab a day for five days, per pigeon, I think, for sick birds, and one tablet per pigeon as a preventive, but double-check on dosage requirements first) for 10-11 Euro (about $15). If you can't get it there. Maybe you get it much cheaper, though.

I might foot the cost for a small amount. Payment might be too complicated. 

Larry


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I had a whole lot now about 25 pairs breeding and about 30 squeakers at hand. Most consist of German Beauties & Kings. I have a another loft in my neighbors land where I keep fantails to foster eggs to. 

I used to have a huge collection. over 20 breeds but things got messy and out of control. Too many requirements.

I reduced a lot when I had a pox outbreak few months back and could not control it. Luckily pox is under control now thanks to controlling the pigeon fly with ivermectin and new device which electronically keeps mosquitoes away.

ordering medicine is not a problem but our postal service is messy, sometime parcel post are open and damaged. By the way I am in Sri Lanka, close by to India.

If a generic name & a dosage can be given it would be easier to find. Most drugs are very cheap here and can be bought without a prescription


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Warriec and Larry,

I thought it was interesting today at a particular site I went to that they
said that India is home to a huge generic medicine industry. This particular
website was discussing the fact that they did business from an Island that
was nearby Australia and enabled them to avoid certain laws.

Anyway, Warriec, I too would be willing to ship you some meds. When
are you leaving your birds, or have you already and now returned? Sorry, I loose track sometimes.

Anyway, coccidiosis and trichomoniasis are host-equilibrium conditions 
prevalent in most pigeon communities/populations. For whatever reason,
your baby has not acquired the immunity from the disease state that it
needs to slough off the disease state while the parents have or at least,
they seem to have. Canker can pretty much invade areas of the body and
appear from outward observations to be asymptomatic while actually having
acquired the disease state internally. You may need to do some flock 
treatments for your birds, Warriec. Trimethoprim Sulpha is another med 
which you could use in combination w/Metronidazole and would also 
treat for coccidiosis in your loft while Baytril will not. It is also considered
effective and gentle for babies.

It would be great to have a link in the resource section for members living
in India that they would be able to readily purchase medications from and
in dosing amounts that are readily/easily usable w/their birds. Hopefully in
time this will be possible.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I meant to give you this single post link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=193292&postcount=23

Bookmark the two links in it and you can become a member at IVIS and
then have access to the formulary that is published in Clinical Avian Medicine.
Just use the site search engine and look for Therapeutic Agents.

Regarding the generic form of a medication, if you "Google" a medication's
brand name and right next to the brand name, type in: "+generic name"
you should get links to the information that you need.

fp


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Warriec, 

A suggestion: in your search field, type in "Google.com" to get results in English, and "Google.uk" for British Google pages in English. If I type in "Google.de" I get results in German, and "Google.be" for Belgium gives me a Google page which I must select pages in French or Flemish (Dutch) language.

British English spellings sometimes differ from American English spellings, as you probably know, and you can compare different specs and spellings to use when you look for local products.

Spartrix is a brand name, but available internationally.

_Baytril _and _Ciprobay_ are brands from Bayer Chemical in Leverkusen, Germany (about 20 kilometers from where I live in Cologne). Originally _Aspirin_ (acetylsalicylic acid) was a trade name coined by Bayer in Germany, and then it became a generic name. 

You (probably) have a dial-up (modem) connection in Sri Lanka, and maybe on-line research is tedious. Don' know. Sometimes it is quicker for me to research on my own, even when I was using dial-up, than to ask others. By looking at the same info presented in different ways, in different words, on different web-sites, eventually I get the gist of what they are saying and understand the info more thoroughly.

Info below quoted from a web-site which retails Spartrix:
http://www.petlifeonline.co.uk/Store/Pigeons/Harkers-Products/Spartrix



> Spartrix is a single dose treatment for canker in racing pigeons. Spartrix is presented in a handy tablet form allowing birds to be treated individually and thus ensuring all birds receive the required dose. To ensure the full benefit of Spartrix, all pigeons should be treated at the same time, whenever canker is seen. Young birds should be treated at weaning or before flying out. Pigeons should be treated before pairing or during the first half of each brood period to prevent canker being passed to the newly hatched young. Spartrix contains 10mg Carnidazole. Each pack of Spartrix contains 50 tablets, sufficient for 50 adult doses or 100 young bird doses (half tablet).


Another retailer:
http://www.westernsporting.com/Merc...reen=PROD&Store_Code=1111&Product_Code=PM1030



> Spartrix: Trichomoniasis
> 50 x 10 mg Tablets $28.95 USDollars
> 
> 
> The active ingrediant in Spartrix is carnidazole which is a trichomonacidal drug and a single dose is fully effective against the disease. Dose: 1 tablet per pigeon. 50 tablets per package. Preferably, all the pigeons in the loft should be treated at the same time, before feeding. Water containers should be removed from the loft during treatment and returned, thoroughly cleaned, two hours later. The treatment can be repeated every time there is a risk of re-infestation, i.e. at the start of the breeding season, during the first half of the nesting period, etc. No known contraindications.


Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Too...


Squeakers, once learning to self feed, can reliably stuff themselves to such excess, that their Crops become like a 'Tennis Ball' and hard, even before the Seeds hydrate and expand then even more.

Hence, one does well to supervise their interest in new-found-pecking-abilitys, and to monitor the amount of Seeds they may have available to them.

Not every Squeaker will do this, but those who do...do.


So...this might not be a result of any disease process, but merely of ths youngster/Squeaker havng got to enough Seeds to have over-stuffed himself.

If this is the case, it can take some days to pass, and they can indeed be in some discomforts.

If it is a dry Crop contents, one could in theory 'milk' out some of the excess Seeds with less dangers of aspirations from liquids...


Hope all is well...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Link to Ivis*

Thanks, fp,

and thanks, Terry 

for the links to Ivis website for medical info, and avianmedicine link.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Hard, full crop*

Well Phil,

I guess you could call it "tennis ball syndrome" when young pigeon eats so much that it has a hard, full crop, ha-ha. 

What a picture that would make! "Pigeon swallows tennis ball!"

I've never seen such a thing. Although saw a couple of baby pigeons (our chicks Vanilla/Pidgiepoo and Chocolate) with mighty full crops. 

Best regards, 

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Your welcome, Larry....you may have to fudge a bit but I'm sure you'll figure it
out. Another site which had free medical software for Palm Pilots and Pocket PCs':

http://www.epocrates.com/products/rx/

They do not apparently deny membership if info is not verifiable  

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

I'm travelling weekly and I can access the web from where ever I am. 

Unfortunately the baby died today morning. 

India & Sri Lanka produces lots of medicine cheaply for human use. If i could get the generic name and dosage i could find it & cure.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh, Warriec, I’m so sorry to hear about your baby passing. Here is a starter list for you of medications and their generic counterpart as a starter of things that I would might consider keeping on hand in the event of sickness:

Brand Name, Generic, & Website

Flagyl/Metronidazole: http://www.hqpharmacy.org/flagyl.htm

Baytril/Enfrofloxin:http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pharmacy/PatientInfo/Baytril.htm

Ciprofloxin(human equivalent of Baytril):http://www.hqpharmacy.org/cipro.htm 

Bactrim/Cotrimoxazole: http://www.hqpharmacy.org/bactrim.htm
(Septra&Trimethoprim/Sulpha): " " "

Mycostatin/Nystatin: http://www.noprescriptiondrugs.com/pharm69.html

Keflex/Cephalexin: http://www.noprescriptiondrugs.com/pharm130.html#kef

Doxycycline/Vibramycin:http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei...cycline+generic&d=FU8JVOrnPA-N&icp=1&.intl=us

Clavamox/Amoxicillin & Clavulanate Potassium:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGklpi1...rinkle.com/ShoppingPages/clavamox-dog-cat.htm

Augmentin/human version of Clavamox:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/amoxclav.htm

Also, if you have used bookstores, or go on-line to Amazon.com or the 
Indian equivalent, you can get a used PDR or a used Plumb's to keep on 
hand and be able to look up the drug or medication that you are interested in
and see other names that it is manufactured under. Hope this helps.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

thanks fp, i am looking for these right now. Augmantine is a type of amoxillin which is dangerous for birds as said by a vet here.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

warriec said:


> thanks fp, i am looking for these right now. Augmantine is a type of amoxillin which is dangerous for birds as said by a vet here.


I don't know your vet's experience with Augmentins is, but here we use it routinely and many members on this forum use it especially for cat/dog/hawk wounds with no ill effects.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Warriec,

I'm sorry to hear the baby died. 




"It would be great to have a link in the resource section for members living
in India that they would be able to readily purchase medications from and
in dosing amounts that are readily/easily usable w/their birds. Hopefully in
time this will be possible."
fp


fp. I would be happy to sticky any info you can get together, when you have time.


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