# Orphaned babies - one won't eat



## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hi folks,

We had a pigeon family lay eggs on our balcony for the second time this year. The previous time was in the summer, the hatchlings grew up just fine and flew away.

This time it's getting cold (close to freezing at night), the mother was always sitting on the hatchlings and never moving to keep them warm. We unintentionally severely frightened her last night and she abandoned the nest - the babies were left out in ~5C for several hours.

We took the babies inside, hoping the mother would return in the morning, but she hasn't. So it looks like we need to take care of them.

One of them is ~10-11 days old and looks lively. The other is older and way bigger, maybe 14 days, but is quiet - although he can move around just fine.

We tried to syringe feed them with Kaytee's - the younger one lapped the food up with eagerness and kept asking for more.

The older one refuses to eat. He just sits around and if I poke his beak into the syringe, he takes it out and shakes the food off.

Any ideas for what to do with the older guy?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Sad to know the mother got scared and dint return but I think she may return for babies. Pls keep an eye on the nest and put them back quietly as soon as she comes back without scaring her away. 

For feeding the older one, if he is 14 days old, you can feed him defrosted frozen peas thawed under hot water to get them to normal temperature around 30 peas three time a day but let the crop empty in between for the next feeding. Pls keep them warm always and the feed should also be warm(not hot or cold) else they won't be able to digest it. You can put them on a heat pad set to low and put a blanket or towel over it and then the babies so they get warmth all the time. 


If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed. Start with about 30 defrosted and warmed peas. Warm, not hot. Do that maybe 3 times a day, but let the crop empty between times.
Remember frozen defrosted peas should be thawed under hot water to make them warm/normal from in and outside both. Never give hot/cold stuff to any bird. 

This video link will help you further to understand the process on how to do it(tho this is not in lap but you can get an idea, how to open his beak. If you put him in lap, it will be more easy(if he flaps much you can wrap him in towel to feed)). In start you will see small seeds being fed and in later part, the pigeon is being fed on peanuts. Pea/corns will be fed in the very same way as peanuts. 

https://youtu.be/9ZqI8idx-SQ


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Well...at least they are not newly hatched. Please follow instructions on feeding babies very carefully, Make sure the babies are ALWAYS warm, especially before feeding, make sure formula is warm, and never feed unless crop is empty: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/caringforababypigeon.htm 

The bigger baby may be sick/starving, but keep trying to feed him and make sure he is warm too, he needs to be fed. Try hydrating him first, by dribbling a little warm water down the inside side of beak, with a dropper. Are there any other noticeable symptoms? What does the poop look like? *


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Ok, so a few updates:

1) I overestimated their age due to looking at a different type of pigeon. Found pictures of a similar pigeon, it looks like they're closer to 7 and 10 days. I don't think they can do solid food yet, but I do have Kaytee's and it's working well with the youngin.

2) The mom came back (almost 24 hours later!) - I think she heard them from inside the apartment. But here's the problem: I can't bring them to her when she's on the balcony, the door spooks her right away and she flies off. I can't leave them on the balcony to wait until she comes back because it's cold out and God knows when she'll decide to appear next.

My only hope is that she'll come back to the nest at night. Then I can sneak up on her and slot the babies back into the nest before she can take off.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Skyeking said:


> *The bigger baby may be sick/starving, but keep trying to feed him and make sure he is warm too, he needs to be fed. Try hydrating him first, by dribbling a little warm water down the inside side of beak, with a dropper. Are there any other noticeable symptoms? What does the poop look like? *


He didn't eat even when warm... but he MAY have had some water when I gave it to him through the syringe.

He still doesn't want to eat though - just shakes off the food.

His poop was black and a bit liquidy (solid, but with liquid coming out too), but it has now gone solid - still black.

Just recently, his mouth is staying open and he's shaking his tail and throat a bit. Should I try feeding him peas or something solid?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

She is actually looking for the babies and she would be nearby. When she isn't there, keep the babies in nest and have a close eye on them. I think she will take them. 

If the baby is breathing with open mouth and bobbing his tail, may have some breathing problems. Do you notice difficult breathing? 
Pls post a pic of poop here. Also a small video on YouTube with a link here would help about his breathing problem.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Forgot to mention, no you don't feed peas at this young age. Pls post a pic of babies as well so we can estimate on their ages and guide you better. 

If the baby has difficult breathing, he needs to see a vet as in emergency but many vets just euthanize feral pigeons, so you have to tell them it is your pet and give him a name and read my signature for further information.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

kiddy said:


> She is actually looking for the babies and she would be nearby. When she isn't there, keep the babies in nest and have a close eye on them. I think she will take them.
> 
> If the baby is breathing with open mouth and bobbing his tail, may have some breathing problems. Do you notice difficult breathing?
> Pls post a pic of poop here. Also a small video on YouTube with a link here would help about his breathing problem.


Here's the poop from the older guy. The younger guy's poop is similar, but without the water.

And the link to YT vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbIld3uvGdc


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

kiddy said:


> She is actually looking for the babies and she would be nearby. When she isn't there, keep the babies in nest and have a close eye on them. I think she will take them.


Oh, forgot to say: the problem with leaving them in the nest for the mom is that it's cold. We've tried, once for a whole 3 hours when it warmed up, but she didn't show up until after we took them out.

It's kind of between them getting really cold waiting for her or being raised by us


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

His breathing isn't normal. He seems alert but seems like respiratory issue. Hasn't he eaten or drank anything from you? Is their any chances of him aspirating anything you gave? Any avian vets nearby you can see? tho I know they are really expensive.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

kiddy said:


> His breathing isn't normal. He seems alert but seems like respiratory issue. Hasn't he eaten or drank anything from you? Is their any chances of him aspirating anything you gave? Any avian vets nearby you can see? tho I know they are really expensive.


I think he was too warm. Our apartment got really warm and they had a heating pad. I removed it, they seem back to normal now.

In terms of food/drink: he did drink a bit of water (w/ glucose and salt) with weak interest. He really doesn't go for food, but we've kinda force-fed him three times now by opening his beak and using a syringe. He doesn't seem to mind - but he doesn't ask for it either.

The younger guy is the opposite: I feed him until he starts getting those crop bubbles on his shoulders, but he's still constantly asking for food. Is that normal?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh that I couldn't think of. Yes they shouldn't feel hot or cold. Should be just warmed. Thank God he is back to normal. When I heard it is too cold outside, I couldn't think they can get too hot inside, tho he seemed like a thirsty bird. Is he drinking on his own? If not, just dribble water at sides of his beak and let him suck in. Don't put water in their beaks as they aspirate easily.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

kiddy said:


> Oh that I couldn't think of. Yes they shouldn't feel hot or cold. Should be just warmed. Thank God he is back to normal. When I heard it is too cold outside, I couldn't think they can get too hot inside, tho he seemed like a thirsty bird. Is he drinking on his own? If not, just dribble water at sides of his beak and let him suck in. Don't put water in their beaks as they aspirate easily.


Thanks, will do.

Any idea why the little one keeps asking for food all the time? It's not only when I'm around their "nest": he's constantly squeaking for food, but I fed him and his crop is full.

Also, were my age estimates accurate, based on the video?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Please be very careful not to overfeed and make sure there is no air in the syringe, they should only be fed until their crop looks like a bean bag, not too full or tight. Make sure crop is completely empty before feeding again.*


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Skyeking said:


> *Please be very careful not to overfeed and make sure there is no air in the syringe, they should only be fed until their crop looks like a bean bag, not too full or tight. Make sure crop is completely empty before feeding again.*


Will do. But why is he incessantly screaming for food even when he is full?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Skyeking said:


> *Please be very careful not to overfeed and make sure there is no air in the syringe, they should only be fed until their crop looks like a bean bag, not too full or tight. Make sure crop is completely empty before feeding again.*



Also, how can I tell the crop is totally empty?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

karabas said:


> Will do. But why is he incessantly screaming for food even when he is full?


*If the young one is pooping every hour and it is solid he is getting enough, however, if his crop is not emptying he may not be digesting well. You can gently feel the crop to see if it is empty. If it is not emptying fast enough, add a drop of applesauce to the formula or a drop of organic apple cider vinegar to next feeding.

If he is screaming you can feed him again, but the crop has to be completely empty.*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Think the mom would have come back for them if you had waited long enough. So much better for them to be raised by the parents. Now they will be pets and will never have a free life. Sad.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Think the mom would have come back for them if you had waited long enough. So much better for them to be raised by the parents. Now they will be pets and will never have a free life. Sad.


We tried leaving them out in the nest the next day and several days after. On a warm day, we left them out from sunrise to sunset. A pigeon or two did show up (we have a flock living on our building), but they just looked and left. Before that, when it was colder, we tried leaving them out for a few hours at a time. Nothing.

At that point it was between risking them dying from the cold or taking them in. Trust me, we're not interested in having pets.

But, having taken them on, we would appreciate some help, such as answers to the questions in the following threads:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=78159
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=78161


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

I could still use help re: topics I posted, but I had one more question come up:

I started the older guy (looks around 16 days old now) on thawed peas and corn today. Gave him 30 total pieces, 3 times a day.

At my last feeding he poo'ed on me and his poo was green (not very runny). When I wiped it off, it looked like mashed peas pretty much.

Should I worry, or is that normal with this diet? Previously his poop has been brown - but Kaytee's is brown too.

Also, I heard people add some kind of calcium supplement to the peas and corn. Is that needed?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you for helping them! Don't know about babies so hopefully others with more experience will answer soon. Am glad you kept them from cold and starvation. If they get really tame maybe someone can pigeon sit while you are away in December. Depends on how they are doing by then.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

cwebster said:


> Thank you for helping them! Don't know about babies so hopefully others with more experience will answer soon. Am glad you kept them from cold and starvation. If they get really tame maybe someone can pigeon sit while you are away in December. Depends on how they are doing by then.


Thanks! Hopefully some folks will reply soon 

Here's another question: what are some guidelines for a proper cage for them?

Right now I'm using a box, turned on its side, with one of the flaps as the "doorstep". I have some paper bedding and a paper towel on top. It's ok for now, especially since the smaller guy (~10 days?) still needs the warmth, but the big guy's wingspan is getting close to the width of the box.

I'd prefer not to have to buy stuff from the store, but I have two 24x12x12 boxes that I was thinking of turning into a 24x24x12 box. Would that work? What are some tips for making their habitat homey?

Also: I currently keep the box open during the day, but at night I lower the flap (there's still a huge gap for air of course), and I drape a shirt over to block out the light, because my wife and I stay up late. They seem to be OK with that and quiet down when I do it. Is that OK to do with them?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They will be flying soon. How are you going to keep them in a box? You can't just close it up, as they would be in the dark. They need light and they need sunshine or they cannot process calcium. Some use a dog crate with the metal bars.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

It's quite normal for the droppings to be green when they are being fed peas, so nothing to worry about. The peas move quickly thru their digestive system, so still resembles the shape of a pea on the other side.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> It's quite normal for the droppings to be green when they are being fed peas, so nothing to worry about. The peas move quickly thru their digestive system, so still resembles the shape of a pea on the other side.


Thanks Marina! I heard people add something to the peas/corn for nutrients. Should I be doing that?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Here's an update with pictures.

I'm a bit worried about the little guy - we picked him up looking like he was 6-days old, and now a week later he looks like he's maybe 10 days? The big guy is growing really fast, I have no worries on his end.

In the picture, the little guy was fed 30 minutes ago. Does his crop look full? The bubbles on his shoulders show up really quickly (maybe 5-7 CCs), but he's always crying for food. His older brother is not as eager after he's fed.

I'm also attaching a picture of the box they're in right now. I'm thinking of making something similar, but quite a bit bigger.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

I'm really starting to be concerned about whether the little guy is having enough food.

I try to go by the "shoulder bubbles" that show up when you feed them, but this guy's bubbles appear almost right away, at maybe 5-7 CCs (feeding four times a day).

But when feeding him today, I realized I could easily see his spine - his skin is like hanging off of it! Are they supposed to get this skinny?

The other thing is that this guy attacks food like a rabid dog - he knows what the feeding syringe looks like and he runs after it without stopping, even after I feed him. The older guy gets excited about food too - but not nearly this much.

Are the shoulder bubbles a false sign in his case? Please see the picture I posted earlier today - that was after being fed. Not sure if his crop is full enough.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In that last pic, his crop is not full. It should be filled 2/3 full. The other has a full crop. Don't go by bubbles. Go by the fullness of the crop. You aren't probably giving him enough food, so he's hungry all the time.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> In that last pic, his crop is not full. It should be filled 2/3 full. The other has a full crop. Don't go by bubbles. Go by the fullness of the crop. You aren't probably giving him enough food, so he's hungry all the time.


Thanks! I started feeding him more and he seems to be happier 

For the older guy: I've been feeding him peas and corn (and water, if he wants it) for the last 48 hours. Should I still be giving him Kaytee's once in a while? Do I need to add anything else to the peas and corn for now?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

calcium could be sprinkled over the peas and corn. You need to gently dip his beak into a crock of water, but not over the nostrils. Eventually he will learn to drink. Also leave some seed in with him to let him practice picking it up.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> calcium could be sprinkled over the peas and corn. You need to gently dip his beak into a crock of water, but not over the nostrils. Eventually he will learn to drink. Also leave some seed in with him to let him practice picking it up.


Thanks! Is this ok for calcium supplement? http://www.petsmart.ca/bird/health-...-supplement-zid36-5162730/cat-36-catid-400008

I have a new problem: our landlord lowered the heat significantly. It's a bit chilly in our place now. I put the pigeons on a heating pad, but I had it on low overnight.

They still had semi-full crops in the morning (11 hours after eating). I fed them, cranked up the heating pad, but 6 hours later they still have semi-full crops.

Should I wait for them to empty while keeping them warm? Do I give them water in the meantime?

It doesn't look like sour crop yet - they're not throwing up and they're really eager for food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't give them that. Something with just calcium. Like ground oyster shell powder. 
The heating pad should be on low. How cold is it in your apartment?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> I wouldn't give them that. Something with just calcium. Like ground oyster shell powder.
> The heating pad should be on low. How cold is it in your apartment?


Can't seem to find ground oyster shell in the nearby pet stores 

We dont have a thermostat so I'm not certain on the temperature. Our apartment used to be hot to the point that I would sweat a bit even in a T-shirt. Right now just a T-shirt is a bit chilly. They also had a cage facing the window and there was a draft coming from the balcony door...

The heating pad is kinda weak-sauce. They seem to be OK with the temperature setting though.

I *think* it might be helping - little guy's crop seems smaller over the last hour. Let's see.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

karabas said:


> I *think* it might be helping - little guy's crop seems smaller over the last hour. Let's see.


Looks like the extra heat helped  Both birds emptied their crops, so I fed them again and now are contently sleeping off their last meal with the extra warmth from the heating pad.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you buy cuttlebone for pet birds and grind it up to a powder to sprinkle on the food?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Can you buy cuttlebone for pet birds and grind it up to a powder to sprinkle on the food?


I don't think I can grind it into a powder... don't have a food processor that could go that fine.

It's ok - I'll order the oyster shell online. There are some stores further away that sell it.

Unrelated questions:

1) What's the best cage lining? Right now I have them on paper towels, but once I start giving seeds, won't that risk their swallowing some paper with the seed?

Would kitchen towels work?

2) What's the best seed type/seed mix to get them? I can buy the individual components and mix them myself if necessary.

3) When I offer them water, they often drink a little bit and then dunk their whole beak into the water and shake it off. What's up with that?

4) At what age do they start doing water baths? Is it ok to wash them prior to that?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You probably can with a hammer. Oyster shell online would have to be powder form as you would not be able to break it up that small. Paper towels are good. The seed shouldn't be on the floor anyway, but in a dish that they can't tip over. 
Don't bathe them. They don't need a bath until they are ready to bathe.
Pick up some dove mix.
Don't offer them water to drink. Leave it with them in something they cannot tip over.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> You probably can with a hammer. Oyster shell online would have to be powder form as you would not be able to break it up that small. Paper towels are good. The seed shouldn't be on the floor anyway, but in a dish that they can't tip over.
> Don't bathe them. They don't need a bath until they are ready to bathe.
> Pick up some dove mix.
> Don't offer them water to drink. Leave it with them in something they cannot tip over.


Thanks for the answers!

At what age do they become ready to bathe?

Also, will they need grit once I start offering seeds? If so, what do I use and how do I give it to them?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Buy pigeon grit and keep a small dish of it in with them. They will take it when they need it. If you can't find it around at seed and grain places or whatever, then you can get it online. Some places that sell supplies for chickens may have it, or can get it. Wait till they are flying some, then offer them something with a couple of inches of warm water in it that they can splash around in. Cat litter pans or something like that work well.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Buy pigeon grit and keep a small dish of it in with them. They will take it when they need it. If you can't find it around at seed and grain places or whatever, then you can get it online. Some places that sell supplies for chickens may have it, or can get it. Wait till they are flying some, then offer them something with a couple of inches of warm water in it that they can splash around in. Cat litter pans or something like that work well.


Ok, this is urgent: I'm pretty sure the little one is down with sour crop this time. He's been a bit lethargic (although he does ask for food), his crop is full after 7 hours, and he threw up.

Our apartment heating has been poor and the heating pad is not very effective, so I think that's the problem.

What do I do? They've gone to sleep for now. I'll try to keep him extra warm. In the morning, should I try water with baking soda? Or formula with apple cider vinegar (I don't have applesauce)?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

karabas said:


> Ok, this is urgent: I'm pretty sure the little one is down with sour crop this time. He's been a bit lethargic (although he does ask for food), his crop is full after 7 hours, and he threw up.
> 
> Our apartment heating has been poor and the heating pad is not very effective, so I think that's the problem.
> 
> What do I do? They've gone to sleep for now. I'll try to keep him extra warm. In the morning, should I try water with baking soda? Or formula with apple cider vinegar (I don't have applesauce)?


This is kinda sudden, but unfortunately the little guy died overnight 

I think he may have been sick from the beginning when we picked him up - he was way smaller than his brother and did not grow well at all up until now.

Let's hope we can take better care of his brother. He's growing well, seems in good health, etc.

Thanks for your help guys. Sorry to let you down


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Very sorry to hear about the little guy. Thank you for comforting him and for trying your best. Sadly not all make it, and he must have been weaker for some reason. Hope the other bird grows big and strong!


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh that's really sad. I am so sorry to hear about the little guy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is why they are better off being raised by the parents. Should have left it alone. It is very unlikely that the parents would have abandoned their babies, even if it looks to you as if they have. We interfere way to much with nature, and often when we think we are helping, we are just making things worse. "
Something that looks easy, like raising babies, can actually be very complicated. And without the right conditions, which you were not able to achieve, is to their detriment. Just not fair to put the animal through all that, unless absolutely no other way. In this case, I don't think that was the case.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> This is why they are better off being raised by the parents. Should have left it alone. It is very unlikely that the parents would have abandoned their babies, even if it looks to you as if they have. We interfere way to much with nature, and often when we think we are helping, we are just making things worse. "
> Something that looks easy, like raising babies, can actually be very complicated. And without the right conditions, which you were not able to achieve, is to their detriment. Just not fair to put the animal through all that, unless absolutely no other way. In this case, I don't think that was the case.


If a 6-day-old baby could survive 4-5 degree Celcius temperature for 9-12 hours or so, then we should've left him alone. But I wasn't sure if he could, and I had to make a decision right then and there.

However, I think that having second thoughts about it afterwards just made it worse. So many people were telling me to put them back - so we tried, several times. I'm pretty sure the repeated exposure to cold weather took its toll on the little guy's health.

I do appreciate all the advice and help with raising them. The other guy is doing really well - hopefully he'll continue on that way.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You've done what you thought was right under the circumstances, don't feel guilty about it.

Lets hope the other one does well, keep us updated.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> You've done what you thought was right under the circumstances, don't feel guilty about it.
> 
> Lets hope the other one does well, keep us updated.


Thanks. I'm posting a bunch of pictures of the older guy to make sure he's doing well. I would appreciate your input and advice!

The one on my hand is in the morning after he woke up.
The one on the pink hand-towel is after feeding him 40 pieces of corn/peas.
There's also a picture of his poo: on the pink towel is recent, the others are older.
And there's his cage: we bought him that little furry canopy/cave thing and he loved it immediately! He slept in there last night and goes there pretty much all the time. We put the heating pad right underneath so that he's cozy. It's a bit cold and drafty in our apartment right now.

*Some concerns:*

1) I can feel his sternum (i.e. that bone on his bottom) really easily. Is that supposed to happen?

2) I feed him 3 times a day (~9am, ~3pm, and ~9pm) 40-50 pieces of thawed corn and peas. Is that enough? His crop seems to be emptying every morning, but it's hard to tell with his feathers.

3) He gets excited about peas and corn and hand feeds willingly, but he will NOT do the whole shot glass with seeds thing. Just tries to get away.

4) He does peck at seeds on the ground, but he seems to fail at most of them: they just fly out of his beak. Is that normal? He's only been doing it for a few days.

5) Anything else that you can see from the photos? We picked him up around day 7, he's been with us for just about 2 weeks, so I think he looks to be growing "per schedule".


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Didn't realize there was a 4-file limit. Here's the cage and his canopy thing.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He looks fine to me and is getting enough food and that dropping on the pink towel looks perfect.

Has he started pecking the peas from your fingers yet? If he does that, you can leave a small bowl of peas with him and he will start eating those. And then once he's able to eat peas on his own, start mixing some small seeds in with the peas and eventually he will start eating those as well. Has he started drinking water on his own yet? 

You can cover half of the cage with a towel so that he feels safe, and also put his perch in the covered up part. They feel safe when they can sleep high off from the ground. I would put his cage every night in the same spot on a cupboard or something high. Once he starts flying, that's the spot where he will return to at night to sleep.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Cute little guy, looks good, thank you for helping him.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> He looks fine to me and is getting enough food and that dropping on the pink towel looks perfect.
> 
> Has he started pecking the peas from your fingers yet? If he does that, you can leave a small bowl of peas with him and he will start eating those. And then once he's able to eat peas on his own, start mixing some small seeds in with the peas and eventually he will start eating those as well. Has he started drinking water on his own yet?
> 
> You can cover half of the cage with a towel so that he feels safe, and also put his perch in the covered up part. They feel safe when they can sleep high off from the ground. I would put his cage every night in the same spot on a cupboard or something high. Once he starts flying, that's the spot where he will return to at night to sleep.


Thanks for the replies Marina.

He never pecked peas/corn from my fingers and I've been leaving them in his cage, but he doesn't go for them. But over the last 3 days or so he's been pecking at anything small that he sees around him on the ground - seeds, his own dander, etc. I think he even tried his poo once, but clearly wasn't happy about that lol. First time I noticed this pecking was when I unsuccessfully tried to feed him seeds and spilled them on my shirt. He started pecking at them.

The problem is he's not having much success at actually eating the seeds. He usually grabs them with the tip of his beak and then shakes them off or drops them. Is that normal at the beginning?

If his home is in the cage, will he not go to sleep in the cage at night in general? Or do they stop using the cage and just sleep around the apartment?

Also, he is starting to practice flying - jumping from my hand to the ground, jumping up from my lap to the armrest, etc. Should I be giving him more practice, like by picking him up and then letting him go so that he flies to the ground?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> He looks fine to me and is getting enough food and that dropping on the pink towel looks perfect.
> 
> Has he started pecking the peas from your fingers yet? If he does that, you can leave a small bowl of peas with him and he will start eating those. And then once he's able to eat peas on his own, start mixing some small seeds in with the peas and eventually he will start eating those as well. Has he started drinking water on his own yet?
> 
> You can cover half of the cage with a towel so that he feels safe, and also put his perch in the covered up part. They feel safe when they can sleep high off from the ground. I would put his cage every night in the same spot on a cupboard or something high. Once he starts flying, that's the spot where he will return to at night to sleep.


Oh and re: water - no, he hasn't. I don't think he needs it that much, because the peas and corn are quite moist and I warm them up with hot water, so they're wet as well.

He does drink on occasion if I bring it to the tip of his beak, but it's usually brief.

So far he hasn't used anything I placed in the cage: seeds, peas/corn, water, or grit.

He also prefers to sit in that little canopy most of the time. Is that normal? He did go "exploring" a bit yesterday, but today he's just been sitting there.

I actually have been moving his cage to the floor of our bedroom at night-time, because it's by the baseboards and it's warmer there. Is that a bad idea? I usually take him out of the cage, move the cage, then put him back and cover the cage with a dark cloth.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

karabas said:


> Thanks for the replies Marina.
> 
> He never pecked peas/corn from my fingers and I've been leaving them in his cage, but he doesn't go for them. But over the last 3 days or so he's been pecking at anything small that he sees around him on the ground - seeds, his own dander, etc. I think he even tried his poo once, but clearly wasn't happy about that lol. First time I noticed this pecking was when I unsuccessfully tried to feed him seeds and spilled them on my shirt. He started pecking at them.
> 
> ...


Takes a while for them to learn to pick up seed. He will probably have to be put back into the cage at night. Some will just go in, but many won't as they want to stay out longer. You can't let him just roost around the apartment for the night. They are messy, but are also safer in the cage at night or when left without supervision.
He will learn to fly when he is ready, on his own. Please don't pick him up and drop him to try and get him to fly. He could be injured, and it really isn't necessary. They fly when ready.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with Jay3. Please don't drop him...he'll learn to fly when he's ready. Same with picking up food. Thank you for taking good care of him like keeping him warm at night...how cute!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He will eventually learn how to eat, just takes time and practice. Start feeding him a bit less and use your fingers to "play" with the peas and seeds. He will be interested and start pecking. Leave a small bowl of water for him and put in a pea and some seeds in there. He might, out of curiosity, put his beak in and start drinking.

I think he hides in the canopy because he feel safe in there. I would leave a towel permanent on half of the cage. Once he starts flying, he will naturally seek out the high spots at night, that's why I suggested to put the cage high from the ground.

You'll have to get a throw for that white couch, might not be so white a month from now, lol.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

A mirror in his cage will also help him feeling less lonely.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> He will eventually learn how to eat, just takes time and practice. Start feeding him a bit less and use your fingers to "play" with the peas and seeds. He will be interested and start pecking. Leave a small bowl of water for him and put in a pea and some seeds in there. He might, out of curiosity, put his beak in and start drinking.
> 
> I think he hides in the canopy because he feel safe in there. I would leave a towel permanent on half of the cage. Once he starts flying, he will naturally seek out the high spots at night, that's why I suggested to put the cage high from the ground.
> 
> You'll have to get a throw for that white couch, might not be so white a month from now, lol.





Marina B said:


> A mirror in his cage will also help him feeling less lonely.


I heard mirrors could be a double-edged sword, no?

So he was hiding in the canopy because he was cold. The management cranked up the heat today and as soon as it got warm in the apartment, he climbed out and started exploring the cage! He tried out the seeds and the grit, and stood in the water for a bit - so things are looking up.

I lowered the perch a bit and he even sat on it for a while, but for now he's staying in the "nest" at night. I need to figure out a high place... not much in terms of possibilities at the moment. Might need to mount a shelf on the wall.

Surprisingly, the couch doesn't stain! Just wipes right off... for now. heh.

One more question: what do I do with his nails? They are so sharp! I have cuts all over my arms from handling him.



cwebster said:


> Agree with Jay3. Please don't drop him...he'll learn to fly when he's ready. Same with picking up food. Thank you for taking good care of him like keeping him warm at night...how cute!





Jay3 said:


> Takes a while for them to learn to pick up seed. He will probably have to be put back into the cage at night. Some will just go in, but many won't as they want to stay out longer. You can't let him just roost around the apartment for the night. They are messy, but are also safer in the cage at night or when left without supervision.
> He will learn to fly when he is ready, on his own. Please don't pick him up and drop him to try and get him to fly. He could be injured, and it really isn't necessary. They fly when ready.


Ok, I'll let him do his thing then. He's already doing a bit of falling/flying on his own.

Thanks for all the help folks!


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

So he went full steam ahead in development today 

He pecked peas and corn from my hand in the morning and started eating from the container I left in his cage. He also drank from the water, and pecked (still unsuccessfully) at the seeds.

However, my question is: does he know when to stop eating? I left him a lot of peas and corn and he was going at them with fervor until I took the dish away. This was only 2 hours after I fed him.

Should I only leave small amounts, or do they know by now when to stop eating?

And does this mean I don't need to hand-feed him anymore?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

That's great. When they start eating peas on their own, I stop all handfeeding. Make sure there's always peas available for him, he might stuff himself the first time or so, but after a while will only start eating the necessary amount. It's really amazing how much peas they can eat. You can now start adding small seeds to the peas and mix together.

Don't know about the nails, I suppose it will wear off a bit when he starts walking more.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> That's great. When they start eating peas on their own, I stop all handfeeding. Make sure there's always peas available for him, he might stuff himself the first time or so, but after a while will only start eating the necessary amount. It's really amazing how much peas they can eat. You can now start adding small seeds to the peas and mix together.
> 
> Don't know about the nails, I suppose it will wear off a bit when he starts walking more.


Yea it's definitely amazing how much - and how fast! - they can swallow down those peas. He clearly has a preference for them over corn, too. He picked out all the peas and left the corn sitting there, although he does eat it once in a while as well. He totally stuffed himself today, I don't think I've ever seen his crop look that big lol.

Is it ok that he stays in his cage pretty much all the time? Before he used to come out if he saw me around and wanted to be fed, but now that he can eat on his own he just eats and sits back into his "nest". Do they start "exploring" more once they're better at flying?

Also, are there any toys that I can give him to have more fun?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> That's great. When they start eating peas on their own, I stop all handfeeding. Make sure there's always peas available for him, he might stuff himself the first time or so, but after a while will only start eating the necessary amount. It's really amazing how much peas they can eat. You can now start adding small seeds to the peas and mix together.
> 
> Don't know about the nails, I suppose it will wear off a bit when he starts walking more.


So just now his poop got a little watery (pictures attached). Is that OK? Effect of over-eating a bit?


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Peas have lots of water and if he's drinking water as well, that might be the cause of the watery poop.

In nature he would still be in the nest, so if he's happy in the cage let him stay there. He will start exploring as he gets bigger.

A mirror will keep him company. Get one in a frame and tie it to the side of the cage where he sleeps with string.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> Peas have lots of water and if he's drinking water as well, that might be the cause of the watery poop.
> 
> In nature he would still be in the nest, so if he's happy in the cage let him stay there. He will start exploring as he gets bigger.
> 
> A mirror will keep him company. Get one in a frame and tie it to the side of the cage where he sleeps with string.


So he definitely switched over to the seeds today! He barely touched the peas and corn and is devouring the feed I gave him.

He's still stuffing himself though. This morning I checked his crop (11 h since he last ate) and it still had some food in it!

In these cases, I should still be letting his crop empty, right? Cuz he's walking around like he swallowed a bean bag.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Just let him be. He might be a bit uncomfortable from eating too much, but that's how they learn. If you start restricting his food, he will always try to eat as much as possible (I guess). You can add a bit of apple cider vinegar to his drinking water (0.5 ml to 200 ml of water) to help with digestion.

Have you decided what you're going to do with him once he is older?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> Just let him be. He might be a bit uncomfortable from eating too much, but that's how they learn. If you start restricting his food, he will always try to eat as much as possible (I guess). You can add a bit of apple cider vinegar to his drinking water (0.5 ml to 200 ml of water) to help with digestion.
> 
> Have you decided what you're going to do with him once he is older?


Ok, I guess I'll let him be. To be honest he spills so many seeds into his cage when he eats that he has a plentiful supply even if I take away the cup  So his crop was once again not empty a good 12 hours since I put him to bed. I did add the vinegar, so let's see.

I'm attaching a picture of his poop now that he's primarily eating seeds (just a few peas and corn here and there). Please let me know how it looks.

And I'm attaching a picture of the guy himself 

In terms of what to do when he gets older: we're not quite sure. 

We're considering to keep him in as a pet, but the poop would be a problem (we have a carpet and books all around the house). Are those pigeon pants a feasible thing?

The other option would be to give him away to someone. But will he be OK with that, since he grew up with us?

In terms of release... given that pigeons already live on our building's balconies, would it be feasible to make him a coop on our balcony so that he would fly out and return here? This way if he's not getting enough food/water, we can help him out. Or if he's released, he'll just do his own thing?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he is eating on his own then just leave the feed dish with him. Maybe he ate this morning from what he threw out of the dish. But you can leave the feed and water with him.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

The coop on the balcony seems like a good idea, if you can't get someone with a large aviary to take him in. If you build one, leave him in there for a month or so to get use to the area. Sounds like you're very high up, so there won't be predators around. Don't know if you have hawks over there.

He must be human imprinted, once he starts flying he will follow you around where ever you go.

Droppings look perfect.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> The coop on the balcony seems like a good idea, if you can't get someone with a large aviary to take him in. If you build one, leave him in there for a month or so to get use to the area. Sounds like you're very high up, so there won't be predators around. Don't know if you have hawks over there.
> 
> He must be human imprinted, once he starts flying he will follow you around where ever you go.
> 
> Droppings look perfect.


Do you think the coop on the balcony is better than keeping him indoors? Will he continue to return, or will he blend in with the flock eventually?

We do have some kind of predator birds - at least I think. They're big and they sit really high up on the antenna of the building across from us, and they just glide around in the air instead of flapping their wings. I haven't seen them attack the flock - but what else could they be?

Since he's been on an almost seed-only diet, his poop is now round and black. I think this is what the wild pigeons' poop looks like, but I just wanted to double check.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

He looks great and his poop looks great. You did a wonderful job raising him. He likely will imprint on you so you will have a friend for life. Please keep him safe from predators.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He's looking very cute in his cage. I would also rather keep him indoors as a pet.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We have indoor pet pigeons who are happy and safe from the red tailed and red shouldered Hawks who live outside. You can get a nice indoor flight cage. Maybe eventually another pigeon friend too if you wish.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you give him a flat perch to roost on? They prefer that rather than a round one where they have to hang on constantly. More natural for a pigeon.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Can you give him a flat perch to roost on? They prefer that rather than a round one where they have to hang on constantly. More natural for a pigeon.


Hm, I'll try. Not sure where I can find a flat piece for him to sit on... would need a wood plank or something. Thanks for the tip.



cwebster said:


> We have indoor pet pigeons who are happy and safe from the red tailed and red shouldered Hawks who live outside. You can get a nice indoor flight cage. Maybe eventually another pigeon friend too if you wish.


Do you have a picture of that flight cage, by any chance?



Marina B said:


> He's looking very cute in his cage. I would also rather keep him indoors as a pet.


Ok, we're really torn between keeping him and giving him away. How possible is it to find him an aviary in the Toronto area? Would he be ok with, since we raised him?

If we do keep him, do we need to get him a mate? If we don't get him one, how much time would we need to spend with him?

My wife and I both work really long hours - but from home. So overall we're almost always around, but the problem is that if he's walking around on my desk asking for food, it'll be distracting.

We've gotten really attached to the bird, but at the same time if we can't raise him properly, I'd rather hand him over to people who would.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not hard to make a perch. Buy a small board 4 to 6 inches wide and cut a piece to fit across the end of the cage that his perch is now. Run 2 perches or dowels across to sit on the horizontal bars of the cage to sit the shelf on. Wire it in place and you have a perch. It's really very easy, and more natural for him. They don't like to have to hang on constantly, and they even like to lay down on their perch or shelf. 
In the long run he would probably be happier in a loft with other pigeons, and a mate to spend his time with. Unless you are really into having a pet pigeon, then it will be hard to spend the time he needs, and cleaning up after him. And it would be sad for him to just spend his life in a cage. They are messy in the house also, as they throw seeds and they do molt. And unless it is really something that you want, and enjoy taking care of, than both you and he would be better off finding him a loft situation or something.
They are a commitment for a long time.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> In the long run he would probably be happier in a loft with other pigeons, and a mate to spend his time with. Unless you are really into having a pet pigeon, then it will be hard to spend the time he needs, and cleaning up after him. And it would be sad for him to just spend his life in a cage. They are messy in the house also, as they throw seeds and they do molt. And unless it is really something that you want, and enjoy taking care of, than both you and he would be better off finding him a loft situation or something.
> They are a commitment for a long time.


Well here's the thing: my wife's had a lot of pets in the past, so the commitment itself isn't a problem. Cleaning up after them isn't - we've been doing it and it's not too much of a hassle.

But, like I said, I'm not sure if we can give him the time. We can definitely spend a few hours in the morning with him - and maybe an hour in the evening, and we can keep his cage in the same room as us.

Is that enough? What if we got a friend for him to be his mate?

Either way, how do we go about finding him a loft? Do you guys know people in the Toronto area that I could ask?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We have purchased two large flight cages online. I think from BirdCages4Less. Sample is linked here. 

Double Timbertown Treehouse Flight Bird Cage
Product Code: PA5699
Size: 61''W x 18"D x 56''H

Price: $279.95
- See more at: 
http://birdcages4less.com/page/B/PROD/PA5699#sthash.ku4vSo7z.
There are many sizes and if you look for used ones at feed stores or on Craigslist you can get a good deal. You just ditch the perches and put in large flat ones instead. Ours has a flat middle perch between the halves that we covered with carpet. Lucy likes that.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

We try to spend a couple of hours each day with our pigeons. If you are worried that your bird is lonely you can rescue a second one for company.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

cwebster said:


> We try to spend a couple of hours each day with our pigeons. If you are worried that your bird is lonely you can rescue a second one for company.


Thanks for the tip. I don't know if he is lonely - but do you think he will be if we spend a few hours a day with him and he doesn't have a friend?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

If you spend a few hours per day with him he will be happy. Ours look out the window and have lots of toys too. We take them out and they like to socialize with us. They will sit on our shoulders and snuggle while we use the desktop computer. You become their flock.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

cwebster said:


> If you spend a few hours per day with him he will be happy. Ours look out the window and have lots of toys too. We take them out and they like to socialize with us. They will sit on our shoulders and snuggle while we use the desktop computer. You become their flock.


OK. Thanks.

I think we'll try to find him a foster loft/aviary, but if not we'll keep him. 

Any tips on how to find someone with a loft to take him in?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A few hours a day is good. That's the part that many can't commit to. You get busy, and don't bother after a while. But if you can do that, then a few hours a day would be good. I don't think any pigeon or actually any bird is really quite as happy as living with their own kind and having a mate, which is what they are programmed for. Having a mate and raising babies. But if that isn't possible, then I think being a pet would be the next choice.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Guys: the pigeon's got diarrhea. He pooped lots of liquid, but with some poop still in it.

He's been flying around, so yesterday morning (24 hours ago) he drank water from the sink (with dirty dishes) before we could shoo him - it may have been soapy, etc. But his poops have been totally fine up until now.

I heard it could be stress? I did have to pull apart his cage yesterday evening so that I could install a flat perch. But once again, his poops have been OK overnight. They just started to get runny.

He seems a bit less energetic today and he ate less than he does most mornings.

Any suggestions?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

karabas said:


> Guys: the pigeon's got diarrhea. He pooped lots of liquid, but with some poop still in it.
> 
> He's been flying around, so yesterday morning (24 hours ago) he drank water from the sink (with dirty dishes) before we could shoo him - it may have been soapy, etc. But his poops have been totally fine up until now.
> 
> ...


I think it was just because I gave him water before he had food in the morning. He seems OK now and is exploring again. His last poop was solid.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

One does get a bit paranoid when the droppings change. Remember the apple cider vinegar in the water twice a week, helps restore the good bacteria.

Don't worry too much about what to do with birdie, time will tell. If he's happy living with you, good. If not (you will notice later on) then you can always find someone with an aviary to take him in.

You can also introduce him to spinach, pigeons love it. And also raw chopped up peanuts.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can leave his food with him 24/7. That's what most do with a pet bird.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> You can leave his food with him 24/7. That's what most do with a pet bird.


I do leave the food with him, I just changed his water in the morning and gave it to him before he went to eat his seeds. I think that's why he had runny poop.



Marina B said:


> One does get a bit paranoid when the droppings change. Remember the apple cider vinegar in the water twice a week, helps restore the good bacteria.
> 
> Don't worry too much about what to do with birdie, time will tell. If he's happy living with you, good. If not (you will notice later on) then you can always find someone with an aviary to take him in.
> 
> You can also introduce him to spinach, pigeons love it. And also raw chopped up peanuts.


Thanks, I do give ACV every third day. I guess we're keeping him for now, unless we can find somebody in Toronto with an aviary who could take him. I have no idea of how to find a reliable person for that though.

I'm attaching a few pictures of him and his cage. Wanted to ask a few things:

1) He's eating primarily seeds from the bowls, but he's still unable to eat seeds from the floor. He holds them in his beak and then drops them. Will he learn eventually? He's been eating seeds for over a week now.

2) I made a flat perch for him (from an extra IKEA bookshelf back). Does the nest go up top or on the bottom? He doesn't seem to be sitting in it when he's on the perch.

3) I still have that canopy on top of a heating pad in case he gets cold (our heating is back and forth, we're wearing sweaters inside today). Does he still need it? I haven't seem him use it, so I'm guessing not? He's almost fully feathered, just a patch or two under his wings and his face isn't completely feathered yet.

By the way, he's flying around now  He's able to go across the room without a problem.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Also, I'm giving him a pigeon & dove mix, but he seems to prefer specific kinds of seeds. I'm not sure which (he eats too fast for me to see which seed he grabs) - but once he eats a lot of the mix, he then starts using his beak to throw seeds around (looks like he's trying to find a particular type) and basically stops eating until I re-fill the container.

The ingredients for the mix are:

While millet
Red milo
Red millet
Whole wheat
Canary grass seed
Feed oats
Cracked corn
Oat groats
Green split peas
Safflower seed

Is this a bad mix?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Mix sounds good. You can add dry lentils to it if you like.
He doesn't need a nest and probably won't use it. All they really need is the roost to perch and sleep on. If he were in a loft, he would perch somewhere where he can see the nestbox. Unless they are on eggs or babies, no need for a nest. Some females will stay in the nest at night regardless, but many do not. All he/she needs is the perch.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Darling little guy!


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

Karabas, my guys toss their food about looking for favorites as well. They are picky eaters. I added shelled sunflower seeds and lentils to their daily seed mix. He is a cute little guy.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

karabas said:


> Also, I'm giving him a pigeon & dove mix, but he seems to prefer specific kinds of seeds. I'm not sure which (he eats too fast for me to see which seed he grabs) - but once he eats a lot of the mix, he then starts using his beak to throw seeds around (looks like he's trying to find a particular type) and basically stops eating until I re-fill the container.
> 
> The ingredients for the mix are:
> 
> ...


Pigeons toss their food to find their favorites. So to discourage this you can use a hooded feeder they use for parrots or make a feeder by using a disposable leftover food storage container. Put the lid on, flip it over and cut a round hole about the size of a golf ball in the bottom. Put your mix in that and it should cut down on the mess. You can cut back on his picking and tossing by NOT over feeding him. Pigeons do not need much at all to be healthy, in fact just a few tablespoons a day is all that is required for a house dwelling pet pigeon. So feed him once a day and only give a few tablespoons in the container. If you just have a bit left in the bottom at the end of the day then your feeding him right and not over feeding. If they can't gorge on their favorites they tend to eat more variety for the simple fact that they are hungry enough to do so be cause they are not over fed. Spoiled pigeons will leave the non favorites in the beginning and expect a refill, but do not refill until most of it is gone, that forces them to eat more variety of the mix and not waste feed.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Whytpigeon said:


> Pigeons toss their food to find their favorites. So to discourage this you can use a hooded feeder they use for parrots or make a feeder by using a disposable leftover food storage container. Put the lid on, flip it over and cut a round hole about the size of a golf ball in the bottom. Put your mix in that and it should cut down on the mess. You can cut back on his picking and tossing by NOT over feeding him. Pigeons do not need much at all to be healthy, in fact just a few tablespoons a day is all that is required for a house dwelling pet pigeon. So feed him once a day and only give a few tablespoons in the container. If you just have a bit left in the bottom at the end of the day then your feeding him right and not over feeding. If they can't gorge on their favorites they tend to eat more variety for the simple fact that they are hungry enough to do so be cause they are not over fed. Spoiled pigeons will leave the non favorites in the beginning and expect a refill, but do not refill until most of it is gone, that forces them to eat more variety of the mix and not waste feed.


Thanks! I made the feeder from an old yogurt container and it definitely cut down on the mess.

I'm still trying to battle him to eat everything instead of just his pickings. I filled the feeder up yesterday afternoon, he's been tossing the food and not eating since last evening. Let's see how long he'll go for until he actually starts to eat the rest of the seed.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

So it's now been 24 hours since I haven't given him fresh feed - he's still pretty much just tossing the seeds around. 

It's just that now, those seeds are still there because of the covered feeder.

He barely eats anything and is clearly hungry, but still tosses the seeds around instead of eating most of them.

Should I keep going with this training?? Or is basically untrainable at this point?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Don't know. Our pigeons are really spoiled and pick out what they want. I just add another teaspoon of feed in the morning and night. Eventually they eat most of it. If it gets really old I put the old stuff outside for the wild birds. But we only have two pigeons, housed separately because I am still quarantining Lucy from Fiona. Both are adults.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

I found this thread: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/advise-pigeon-only-eat-one-type-of-seed-63639-2.html

So I think it takes time. He hasn't eaten that much for over a day, so I gave him some peas and corn (he didn't eat all of them either!) and then hand-fed him seeds from his mix. He didn't seem very happy about that, but oh well.

I'll probably give him fresh feed today, but will not be changing it as often as he's used to, and maybe hand-feeding him seeds he clearly doesn't eat otherwise.

Hopefully he'll start eating more things in a week or two.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

I could use your advice on this.

I'm this still trying to make this guy eat all - or most - or just a good amount of the seed mix. I still can't figure out which seed he prefers, but he clearly picks something out when I give him fresh mix and then stops eating everything else.

He's willing to go hungry - REALLY hungry - but he won't eat the rest of the seeds.

What I've been doing is letting him go hungry until mid-afternoon, then hand feeding him seeds from the mix, then giving him peas and corn. Then towards the evening, I finally freshen up his mix. Repeat the next day.

It's been about 2.5 days of this. So far there doesn't seem to be much progress.

I'm afraid of stifling his growth, but at the same time I can't be throwing out 95% of the seed mix! It's crazy, I'm more than half-way through a 6lb bag in under two weeks.

Should I just abandon this and try again later? Do they grow out of this kind of thing?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just put the seed down and let him eat it. If he leaves a lot, then don't give him more till he eats it. You don't let him get REALLY hungry, as you think you do. He can't get REALLY hungry, even in one day. 
He isn't going to let himself starve. Let's get serious here. He knows he will eventually get what he wants, and he isn't all THAT hungry, so he waits. 
People all over the place have lofts with many babies learning to eat seed. They don't starve to death. Feral birds all over the place eat what they get. They don't let themselves starve in order to eat just their favorite things. If they are that picky, then they are that spoiled. So you either stop spoiling him, or keep spoiling him, as you wish, and nothing will change.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Just put the seed down and let him eat it. If he leaves a lot, then don't give him more till he eats it. You don't let him get REALLY hungry, as you think you do. He can't get REALLY hungry, even in one day.
> He isn't going to let himself starve. Let's get serious here. He knows he will eventually get what he wants, and he isn't all THAT hungry, so he waits.
> People all over the place have lofts with many babies learning to eat seed. They don't starve to death. Feral birds all over the place eat what they get. They don't let themselves starve in order to eat just their favorite things. If they are that picky, then they are that spoiled. So you either stop spoiling him, or keep spoiling him, as you wish, and nothing will change.


Thanks Jay3. So how long can they go without food? I did let him go for about 24 hours with no food at the beginning and he didn't budge.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He is being stubborn. A healthy bird is not going to let himself starve. They can go several days before they starve. Water they need.
Many on here have had the same problem. They finally got tired of it and made the birds eat what they gave them. It does work eventually. It isn't good for them to just pick out a couple of seeds that they like. They need the different seeds.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> He is being stubborn. A healthy bird is not going to let himself starve. They can go several days before they starve. Water they need.
> Many on here have had the same problem. They finally got tired of it and made the birds eat what they gave them. It does work eventually. It isn't good for them to just pick out a couple of seeds that they like. They need the different seeds.


Ok, thanks. I'll just be more patient.

The other problem I'm running into with him is that he's taken to eating our carpet and the random bits of lint/dirt/etc on it. He used to fly around the house and explore, but now if I let him out, all he does it walk around and poke at the carpet. Any idea why he does that and any tips on how to stop it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you give him other minerals? Maybe he is looking for something. You do give him grit, right? Maybe just looking for something better to eat.


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## wiggles and puddles (Sep 3, 2015)

karabas said:


> Ok, thanks. I'll just be more patient.
> 
> The other problem I'm running into with him is that he's taken to eating our carpet and the random bits of lint/dirt/etc on it. He used to fly around the house and explore, but now if I let him out, all he does it walk around and poke at the carpet. Any idea why he does that and any tips on how to stop it?


Pigeons are foragers, so he might be acting on instinct, looking for food like wild pigeons would. I would be carful about force feeding him, you don't want to over stress him, and there is always a risk involved in doing that. Not something to do unless you have to. I have 2 indoor birds that were hand raised like you. Both of them pick out their favorites in their dishes, and make a mess about what I have taken to calling their "seed rejects". I give them fresh seed every day, but I don't fill the bowl up completely. They always have seed available, but not enough to make a huge mess. (The bowl is a little less then half full). They have a pad on the bottom of their cage that I change twice a day and spot clean. When I change it I put a bit of seed on the pad, and that is when they will come down and eat what they normally reject in their bowls, and it fulfills their foraging instincts. You might try that, maybe then he would eat all his food and stop pecking at your carpet. It worked for my two anyway. I had tried everything with them because they are very picky. They still are, and they still reject a few kinds of seed, so they get a a vitamin in their water my vet recommended.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

wiggles and puddles said:


> Pigeons are foragers, so he might be acting on instinct, looking for food like wild pigeons would. I would be carful about force feeding him, you don't want to over stress him, and there is always a risk involved in doing that. Not something to do unless you have to. I have 2 indoor birds that were hand raised like you. Both of them pick out their favorites in their dishes, and make a mess about what I have taken to calling their "seed rejects". I give them fresh seed every day, but I don't fill the bowl up completely. They always have seed available, but not enough to make a huge mess. (The bowl is a little less then half full). They have a pad on the bottom of their cage that I change twice a day and spot clean. When I change it I put a bit of seed on the pad, and that is when they will come down and eat what they normally reject in their bowls, and it fulfills their foraging instincts. You might try that, maybe then he would eat all his food and stop pecking at your carpet. It worked for my two anyway. I had tried everything with them because they are very picky. They still are, and they still reject a few kinds of seed, so they get a a vitamin in their water my vet recommended.



You know, that's a good idea about putting the seed down for them to forage. They do like that. Maybe you could put down a good sized towel on the rug and sprinkle some seed on it. I bet he would like to go there and forage for the seed. Maybe he would even pick up and eat seeds that he doesn't eat in the cage. Maybe you could use the seeds that he leaves to put on the towel. It may get him to eat them. Then he would get used to eating those seeds.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

wiggles and puddles said:


> Pigeons are foragers, so he might be acting on instinct, looking for food like wild pigeons would. I would be carful about force feeding him, you don't want to over stress him, and there is always a risk involved in doing that. Not something to do unless you have to. I have 2 indoor birds that were hand raised like you. Both of them pick out their favorites in their dishes, and make a mess about what I have taken to calling their "seed rejects". I give them fresh seed every day, but I don't fill the bowl up completely. They always have seed available, but not enough to make a huge mess. (The bowl is a little less then half full). They have a pad on the bottom of their cage that I change twice a day and spot clean. When I change it I put a bit of seed on the pad, and that is when they will come down and eat what they normally reject in their bowls, and it fulfills their foraging instincts. You might try that, maybe then he would eat all his food and stop pecking at your carpet. It worked for my two anyway. I had tried everything with them because they are very picky. They still are, and they still reject a few kinds of seed, so they get a a vitamin in their water my vet recommended.





Jay3 said:


> You know, that's a good idea about putting the seed down for them to forage. They do like that. Maybe you could put down a good sized towel on the rug and sprinkle some seed on it. I bet he would like to go there and forage for the seed. Maybe he would even pick up and eat seeds that he doesn't eat in the cage. Maybe you could use the seeds that he leaves to put on the towel. It may get him to eat them. Then he would get used to eating those seeds.


Thanks for the help guys. It took 24 hours of no food at all (no force-feeding, no peas/corn, etc) and he started eating the other seeds 

He's still avoiding the bigger seeds (some of the cracked corn pieces are huge), but I think he just has trouble with them.

You're also right about foraging - but I did have seeds on the carpet already by accident and I left them there. He did pick at them, but he also pecked at the carpet and the random tiny pieces of lint, etc on it despite seeds being available nearby.

Also today when he started eating other seeds, he only did it when I placed the feeder on the ground. He didn't want to eat them inside the cage.

In terms of grit, this is what I give him: https://petvalu.com/product/51320/e...r-parakeets-cockatiels-and-parrots-ecotrition

Is that OK? Should I get him something else? The gravel and oyster shells are not powdered. He does eat them once in a while.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your gravel is not large enough for a pigeon. Pigeon grit has other things like minerals and calcium. Buy a Hi Calcium Pigeon grit.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Your gravel is not large enough for a pigeon. Pigeon grit has other things like minerals and calcium. Buy a Hi Calcium Pigeon grit.


Are these any good:

http://www.amazon.ca/Hagen-B2460-Oy...8&qid=1448846138&sr=8-1&keywords=oyster+shell

http://www.amazon.ca/Manna-Pro-Anim...8&qid=1448846138&sr=8-2&keywords=oyster+shell

It's hard to find this stuff in Canada and what's available is quite pricy.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he will take oyster shell that small, then he will be getting calcium, he still needs vitamin D3 to be able to utilize the calcium, and he still needs pigeon grit to be able to grind the seeds he eats. Oyster shell is too soft for that and wears down quickly. Also, it needs to be larger in size for it to do him any good in helping to grind his food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This is what I use for grit
Kaytee Bay-Mor Hi-Calcium Pigeon Grit 
Ingredients:
Calcium Carbonate, Granite Grit, Oyster Shell, Salt, Charcoal, Anise Oil, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Oxide, Iron Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> If he will take oyster shell that small, then he will be getting calcium, he still needs vitamin D3 to be able to utilize the calcium, and he still needs pigeon grit to be able to grind the seeds he eats. Oyster shell is too soft for that and wears down quickly. Also, it needs to be larger in size for it to do him any good in helping to grind his food.


I'm giving him ecotricion vitamins for birds that has vitamin d3. It's also really sunny in our apartment (but of course it's not the outside).

I'll try to find some grit. Kaytee's doesn't seem to be available in Canada, I'd need to ship it from the US and the shipping + import taxes are quite a lot.

Is there a difference between red/gray kaytee's grit?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Any pigeon grit wound help to grind his food. Some are better than others and have more in them, but supplements and mineral blocks that you can get from pigeon supplies will add to the minerals. 

Sun coming through a window doesn't help with the vitamin D3, as the needed rays are filtered out through window glass or screening. Vitamin D3 in the vitamins helps, as long as he gets enough from that.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Any pigeon grit wound help to grind his food. Some are better than others and have more in them, but supplements and mineral blocks that you can get from pigeon supplies will add to the minerals.
> 
> Sun coming through a window doesn't help with the vitamin D3, as the needed rays are filtered out through window glass or screening. Vitamin D3 in the vitamins helps, as long as he gets enough from that.


Ok, I ordered Kaytee's Bay Mor grit, but it'll take a week or two to get here (coming from the US).

I noticed that after he finally started eating, his poop now contains some undigested seeds (or maybe they're hulls? I'm not sure). I'm attaching a picture.

Is that normal, or is that a sign he's not getting enough grit?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

Wanted to follow up about the poop. It's still the same (gets light green when dried, there still seem to be pieces of seed in it - but not whole seeds anymore).

The grit is coming, but it's gonna be at least a week or two.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

He will be fine, don't stress. The first pigeon I raised did not get any grit for the first 3 months (I just didn't know about these things), and he was fine. The droppings still looks good.

Did you manage to find someone to look after him, you said previously you have to go away in December?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Marina B said:


> He will be fine, don't stress. The first pigeon I raised did not get any grit for the first 3 months (I just didn't know about these things), and he was fine. The droppings still looks good.
> 
> Did you manage to find someone to look after him, you said previously you have to go away in December?


Thanks  I get overly worried I guess.

I did notice that he's been plucking some feathers under his wings. He's been doing for as long as I can remember, and at first I just thought his feathers were still growing, but he's got these two naked patches at the top, just under his wings.

I don't think he's stressed (he seems happy, flies around, sits on my shoulder, etc), but maybe he is? Or is it a nutrient deficiency?

I'm thinking of leaving him with my in-laws. The problem is I don't know how he'll react to other people (he's only really seen my wife and I) and we'd be away at least a week, possibly more, so I'm worried he'll get sad. Or is that not an issue?

We'd also have to drop him off at their place, which means a new environment - although he'll have his cage still. He'll also probably be kept to one room.

I don't know if that's an issue or not.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Don't think you have to worry about that. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to other people. As long as he has his cage (that's where he feels safest), it will be ok.

I once had to leave my 3 month old pigeon for 2 weeks, and was so worried about him. But the woman that took care of him, told me he sat on her head etc and did not seemed concerned about me gone. Well, when I came back he immediately recognised me and it was as if I've never been gone.


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

When choosing a container to make a feeder out of pick one that is round and shallow, not too deep. I'm not sure what your yogurt container looks like but he may not be able to reach the bottom last few seeds without putting his whole head in there, which they prolly won't do. No more than three inches high IMO.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Thanks for the help guys.

Is it normal for them to not be able to eat larger-sized seeds at this age (~5 weeks)?

I've noticed that he now picks out all the small seeds (canary, millet, etc) from the mix, but leaves the big ones (oats, cracked corn, etc). He doesn't seem to be able to eat them - I've seen him try to and drop those seeds, repeatedly many times.

Today I decided to hand-feed him some of the larger seeds and he got really excited. Then he started going to the feeder, picking up a large seed, and dropping it. I would feed it to him, he'd get super happy, and go to pick up another large seed, etc.

So he clearly wants to eat them, but just is unable.

In terms of feeder: he does actually stick his head fully inside the yogurt container (I flipped it upside down and cut a hole in the side) and it took him less than a day to adjust to it. But he clearly prefers feeding off the ground if possible.

I'll try to make him a different feeder soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They all start with either the small seeds or the med sized or whatever. I had one that liked the large peas right off. Many will start with the safflower seeds which are med sized. But many do start with the small seeds. It's not that he can't eat them, but just that he isn't used to the feel of them in his beak. He will eventually try them on his own and get used to them.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> They all start with either the small seeds or the med sized or whatever. I had one that liked the large peas right off. Many will start with the safflower seeds which are med sized. But many do start with the small seeds. It's not that he can't eat them, but just that he isn't used to the feel of them in his beak. He will eventually try them on his own and get used to them.


Ok, thanks Jay3.

Last couple of days I've been having a bit of trouble with him. He's really into eating the carpet - he really digs his beak in and pushes off with his legs, repeatedly.

I don't think he's getting anything out of it, our carpet is pretty tough, but he's not eating much else at all. There are seeds on the carpet too, but he pokes at them lazily. I have a shallow dish on the floor with a lot of seeds on it, but he barely touches that either.

Even more surprisingly, I filled up his feeder with a LOT of new seed and he ignores it as well.

Otherwise he's acting healthy, flying around, his poop looks normal, etc.

Any ideas?

Grit is coming, still a while until it's here...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Could be looking for something to act as grit. Don't know.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Could be looking for something to act as grit. Don't know.


I've been able to (mostly) train him out of it by basically putting him in his cage (where his feeder is) each time I catch him eating the carpet and waiting for him to eat some seeds before I let him out. I make sure to not disturb him if he's just picking up seeds off the floor. He caught on to it pretty quickly.

He ate seeds properly on his own yesterday and he's been eating the carpet less.

I'll post a few pictures as an update - he's growing up fast!


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Here's a picture from today morning of him sitting on the back of my desk chair (his favorite spot).


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Very cute bird!


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys, wanted to consult you about his behavior:

It looks like he's molting. Two (big) feathers came out today. He's about 6 weeks old, so I think it's about the right time.

He runs away from us most of the time now - but he still wants to be around. If my wife and I take a nap, he'll fly into the bedroom and sleep at our feet (like a dog, lol). If only one of us is at home and they go into the washroom, he goes ballistic flying to the bathroom door and back.

He does sit on us on occasion, and enjoys being pet (and even falls asleep). But most of the time, he runs/flies away.

He also stopped going to his cage that much. He found a spot on top of the bookshelves and now goes there (and will bite if we reach out to him there).

From what I've read, this seems to be fairly normal behavior, but I wanted to double check.

His poop looks the same so far. I got the grit and he's been pecking at it regularly, although I've only seen him eat a few pieces.


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

You're baby is growing up! He's probably sleeping up there, cause it's higher up than his cage. Instinct "tells" them to seek the higher places to sleep, safer from predators. And then he's defending his spot, that's why he's pecking at your fingers. 

He tries to follow you, cause you're his "parent". In nature they do the same and that's how they start flying and start foraging for food by copying the parents. So that's all normal behaviour.

Don't worry about the grit, he will eat when he needs it. I've read somewhere that the seeds you buy are actually easy for them to digest. The seeds wild pigeons eat, are old and hard and then they need more grit to digest those.

Enjoy your teenager. If he's a male, he will become more aggressive, there's lots of threads on this forum regarding that behaviour in pigeons. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

Just wanted to post an update. Pigie is about 3 months old now, I'm attaching a picture of him from today - let me know if you notice anything of concern!

He seems to be doing well. 

We bough a shelf at IKEA and mounted it up high in our bedroom, and put the cage there. Prior to that he was avoiding the cage almost completely - but once we put it high up he took to it right away! He now flies there around 10pm, sits on top of the cage, and waits for us to turn off the light.

Now that he's free to go around (we don't lock him in the cage), he wakes up when it gets light out. If we're still asleep, he starts walking on us, biting our faces (lol), and in generally expressing his disapproval.

Another funny thing that he started doing is sitting on my/my wife's shoulder or head and then attacking us if we try to take him off from there. Not sure why he does that - does he think that our heads are not part of us? Sometimes - especially with my wife - he'll come sit next to her and will just start biting her without provocation!

Since we largely stopped needing to catch him (to put him to bed or to stop him from eating our rug), he's been a bit better in terms of handling. I can put my arm out and he'll step on it and once in a while he'll let me pet him.

I >think< his eating is getting better, he's definitely eating some of the larger seeds, especially once the smaller ones run out.

Poop's been about the same and he's flying around, etc, so it seems like he's in good health.

Oh, and he started cooing when he feels threatened (whenever we're close to his cage), and also doing this funny rumbling noise. Not really sure what the latter is about. It sounds kind of like a whispered coo.

Thanks for all your help so far guys! We definitely couldn't have taken care of him properly without this forum.

If you think something's concerning about what I wrote above, do let me know!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Really not a good idea to let him be free all the time. If you ever have to find another home for him, he won't be happy being in a cage for some of the time, and few people are going to let a pigeon fly free all over the place all the time. He is also much safer in a cage when you aren't around to supervise, and at night. Glad he has gotten stronger.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Really not a good idea to let him be free all the time. If you ever have to find another home for him, he won't be happy being in a cage for some of the time, and few people are going to let a pigeon fly free all over the place all the time. He is also much safer in a cage when you aren't around to supervise, and at night. Glad he has gotten stronger.


Hm, good point, thanks.

I dunno how well he'd take being locked up at this point, but we might need to re-habituate him to it.

I think he's OK at night though - he's in the same room as us and he just sits up high and sleeps.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Pidgie sounds like he's reaching adolescence, with the cooing and biting. Phoebe bit us until we started redirecting her by holding her beak gently so she started putting her beak between two fingers instead, which she loved. Your bird will likely stop biting soon. Phoebe also tried to sit on our heads. We redirected her to our shoulder and she loved this after a short while. Your bird is very cute and looks happy. Maybe you can get him used to a cage during the day and let him out at night to interact with you.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

Urgent: I just saw Pidgie throw up a bunch of undigested seeds. He kinda shuddered and shook himself a bunch of times (almost as if he was drying himself off, but without spreading out the wings) and seeds came out of his beak. It basically looked like a ball of large and small seeds with their outer shell half-digested.

His poop color has been OK (green/brown with the white dollop, normal consistency), last one looks very dark green (maybe black?) with the regular white dollop on top.

He's not displaying any other behavioral changes: he flies around, bites us once in a while, forages for food. He eats from his feeder in his cage as always. Right now he's resting on one leg.

He's been getting regular ACV ever 3 days, about 1% of volume (1ml in 100mL).

I checked his throat - no sign of any obstruction.

Should I be concerned? What do I do?


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

If just once, may be swallowed something which he regurgitated along with the feed. Sometimes they regurgitate if over eat/fed. If it happens again, I would be concerned and get his poop tested else I will just wait and monitor.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

kiddy said:


> If just once, may be swallowed something which he regurgitated along with the feed. Sometimes they regurgitate if over eat/fed. If it happens again, I would be concerned and get his poop tested else I will just wait and monitor.


Unfortunately, it happened at least twice overnight and soon after I let him out of the cage this morning.

It's really bizzare since the poop looks fine now (and was huge, as his morning poop usually is). He's acting completely normal, too.

I'll look for an avian vet. If anyone here has recommendations for a vet in the Mississauga/Western Toronto region, do let me know.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Vomiting can be caused by many things, worms, candida, canker.........
Hard to say what it is. When you have a bird vomiting, look for other symptoms.
Is he eating less, drinking more?
Could he have a blockage? Has he eaten anything he shouldn't?


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> Vomiting can be caused by many things, worms, candida, canker.........
> Hard to say what it is. When you have a bird vomiting, look for other symptoms.
> Is he eating less, drinking more?
> Could he have a blockage? Has he eaten anything he shouldn't?


No other symptoms at all. Poop, eating, behavior all completely normal.

I have a feeling he ate something he shouldn't have, but he's so picky with his food I'd be surprised that he did.

I scheduled an appointment with the vet... let's see what they can tell.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If not a bird vet they may not be able to tell. When I have a bird vomiting, it is usually canker.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> If not a bird vet they may not be able to tell. When I have a bird vomiting, it is usually canker.


It is a bird vet, so hopefully they'll be able to tell.

I did check his throat for canker and it looked fine, but I read that it doesn't always show so that's still a possibility.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No, it often doesn't show in their throat, but does cause vomiting, and can be caused by any stress.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> No, it often doesn't show in their throat, but does cause vomiting, and can be caused by any stress.


I don't think he's stressed, aside from finishing up his molt (I think). What would the symptoms.be?

Also, wouldn't canker usually cause apathy, fluffed up feathers, lack of flying, low appetite, etc? He's showing none of those symptoms...


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

We brought Pidgie to the vet just now. He happened to throw up in the box on the way there and so the vet got to look at it.

He said the puke was slimy, which means he has a crop infection. We got an antibiotic and I gave him his first dose just now.

Let's hope it works out.

I'm wondering how he got an infection in the first place though... it's not like we take him outside or anything.

EDIT: Actually it's nystatin, which is antifungal, not antibiotic.

EDIT2: Should we have him fast (aside from the bread which I use to administer the nystatin) for the first few days?

Also, should I be giving him ACV in the water daily? Should I up the dose? I currently use 1% by volume (~10mL in 1L). I saw somebody recommend 2 tbsp per quart for sick birds, which is about 3% (~30mL in 1L).


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

So your vet thinks it's fungal, like candida. Did he take a sample to look at it under the microscope? With canker it would also be that way.
One Tablespoon to a gallon of water is fine for ACV. Too much and they often won't drink it.
Birds get sick whether they go out or not. Some get sick because they don't go outside. They need vitamin D3 from the sunshine. They also need calcium.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> So your vet thinks it's fungal, like candida. Did he take a sample to look at it under the microscope? With canker it would also be that way.
> One Tablespoon to a gallon of water is fine for ACV. Too much and they often won't drink it.
> Birds get sick whether they go out or not. Some get sick because they don't go outside. They need vitamin D3 from the sunshine. They also need calcium.


He didn't take a sample - he seemed pretty confident about it. I suggested a test, but the cost of a vet is already really high and the test would've been even more so and our finances are kinda tight. =/

If there isn't an improvement in a couple of days, I'll probably go back and ask for the test.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Without a test you can't be sure that there isn't canker there. It isn't much just to have him look at a sample. My vet would always do that to be sure that nothing else was going on.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope your bird gets better soon.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

karabas said:


> Unfortunately, it happened at least twice overnight and soon after I let him out of the cage this morning.
> 
> It's really bizzare since the poop looks fine now (and was huge, as his morning poop usually is). He's acting completely normal, too.
> 
> I'll look for an avian vet. If anyone here has recommendations for a vet in the Mississauga/Western Toronto region, do let me know.



I asked a member from Toronto and she said to try links road animal hospital for an avian vet. I personally have no experience of how it is tho.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

Update: I thoroughly cleaned the cage yesterday, put Pidgie in the cage overnight, and woke up to find a plastic earring there.

So that was the culprit. I had a feeling it was something he swallowed, because he was acting completely normal otherwise.

Is there any point to continuing the nystatin?

Also: I'm afraid he has internal injuries from it (the earring is a plastic ball with a small metal stick). What can I do about that? He doesn't seem to be behaving differently, his poop is normal, and he's been eating.

This is a lesson for us to keep him in the cage when we aren't observing him though... got away easy this time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If it caused a blockage, and that caused yeast, which it can, then yes he needs the nystatin. Would give it for 10 days. If it scratched him inside, then it should eventually heal. Not much else you can do. If he did end up with an infection, (probably won't), then antibiotics would be needed.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> If it caused a blockage, and that caused yeast, which it can, then yes he needs the nystatin. Would give it for 10 days. If it scratched him inside, then it should eventually heal. Not much else you can do. If he did end up with an infection, (probably won't), then antibiotics would be needed.


Thanks, Jay3.

I don't think he ever had blockage or any infection. He's acting completely normal, his poop is normal, he eats fine, he doesn't drink more than normal, etc etc etc. Completely normal bird.

And even for the 2 days he had the earring, he was still pooping fine (just less because he was throwing up), so there was no blockage...


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hi guys,

So Pidgie's now 15 months old and started laying eggs about a month ago! We totally thought she was a guy before.

The issue is, she appears to be breaking her eggs. I read that it could be due to low calcium?

The thing is, she always has high-calcium grit in the cage with her and she eats it. Is there another way to supplement her calcium? Or is there another reason she's breaking her eggs?

Also, her current cage has a wooden shelf, but there isn't really a "nest" per se. I know people put nest bowls, but in the past my improvised nests weren't all that attractive to her. Any suggestions for how to get her so sit in a nest so she could lay her eggs there?

Thanks!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A good calcium/D3 supplement is Calcivet or CalciBoost. If she is an inside bird and doesn't have access to the direct rays of the sun, then she isn't getting the vitamin D3 that she needs to be able to use the calcium she gets. That supplement will give her the D3 she needs. Wild birds, or birds that spend enough time outside get the vit. D3 from the suns rays. Also, the high-cal grit often isn't enough.
If she is laying the eggs on the shelf, you can put a low board running across the front of the shelf. This will stop them from falling off. Maybe put a little bit of straw on one end of the shelf. Or maybe a box under the shelf.


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> A good calcium/D3 supplement is Calcivet or CalciBoost. If she is an inside bird and doesn't have access to the direct rays of the sun, then she isn't getting the vitamin D3 that she needs to be able to use the calcium she gets. That supplement will give her the D3 she needs. Wild birds, or birds that spend enough time outside get the vit. D3 from the suns rays. Also, the high-cal grit often isn't enough.
> If she is laying the eggs on the shelf, you can put a low board running across the front of the shelf. This will stop them from falling off. Maybe put a little bit of straw on one end of the shelf. Or maybe a box under the shelf.


Thanks, Jay3.

I think the eggs were actually cracked by falling, not by the pigeon. I do have a D3 supplement for her (although not the Calcivet) and she has the high-calcium grit. She seems to be doing well.

I bought a nest bowl from the pet store a few days ago, padded it with some old rags, and put her eggs there. She took to it right away!

I also got some rabbit hay and she right away started using it to build her nest.

The amazing thing is, she was very agitated before this (she'd fly around a lot, make aggressive sounds, bite, etc). Now she's just sitting contentedly on her eggs in her cage/nest (even with the door open) and only comes out to poop and pick up more straws for the nest!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear the good news, that little Pidgey is doing well 15 months later!


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## karabas (Nov 3, 2015)

Hey guys,

So it's been about a week since Pidgey's gone all hen-like on us and mostly sits on her eggs and flies out to poop and get more straw only.

However, the past 36 hours or so she's been a bit constipated. Her poops have been huge ever since she started egg-sitting, but before it didn't take her any time. Now, she might struggle for 5-20 seconds to poop.

Is this normal? What should I do?

She behaves totally fine otherwise.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's because she holds it so long when she is on the nest. Normal.


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## Kolkatapigeonloft (Feb 17, 2017)

You started in 2015 and still posting, I just joined few days aback. It took me 3 days to read all the post in this thread It's really great that you saved pigie. ?


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