# 2 Babies (10days old?) Toronto High Park area



## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Hello:

My balcony is under construction and a couple of nice pigeons made a nest behind some of the construction refuse the workers left laying around for months. Now they've removed it and there's a nest there - with babies.

The parents stopped sitting on the nest yesterday and weren't around at all. They were back last night and the babies crops looked full... but they're not on the nest.

Here's what they look like as of 8pm last night:










Tonight or tomorrow the construction guys are going to lay cement where the babies are. They will have to move the nest to a spot about 6 or 8 feet to do their work. It's still on my balcony, but over a bit.

Will the parents still feed them? How long can they go without food before I should try to fed them? Can I leave them outside together? (I'm assuming that the parents aren't sitting on them anymore, so they're getting enough heat from each other.

As to food - I checked with several pet food stores today (one that specializes in small animal stuff), none of them carried a formula that I could use. I don't drive, so I'm not sure what else to do.

I found some pigeon and dove mix seed - I am hoping if I put that around the nest after it's moved, the parents will stick around and continue to care for the babies. 

I also got some Quicko Classic Egg Food supplement and Egg Granules for small birds - both of which look like they'd mush up well if I soak them. If the parents don't feed them, will I be safe soaking those in warm water and trying to feed them?

I'm not comfortable using a tube to feed them, so I got some large syringes (just in case) and gloves in hopes that they will try to feed from those... do you have any tips that will get them to try to feed out of the syringe? (saw someone doing that on YouTube quite successfully)

Any other tips, tricks etc.? Ideally, I'd like to do my best to ensure mom and dad keep feeding them, but I also want to be ready to help them if they don't.

Thanks so much! 

Oh if you want to follow their growth - I'll be documenting as much as I can via my Flickr site. The pigeon baby set is here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/highparkpics/sets/72157624004025791/

If someone lives close by and is interested in hand rearing them, I'd be more than happy to connect so you can come by.

Thank you!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would get ready with your handrearing formula, but first see if they still feed them, at this point the parent birds are off the nest and come back to feed a few time a day. If it is possible to hold off on construction for a few weeks they will be up and out without any help.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

I live in an apartment. I can't tell the construction workers not to do their job. They don't work for me. They work for the property management company... and I promise you they won't halt building construction for a couple pigeons.

I don't have a "handrearing" formula. That's part of my question. Can I make one out of the products I bought? I have been to 4 stores today... nobody carries a "handrearing" formula, in this area that I'm aware of. I went to an independent bird store, Global Pet foods, Pet Valu, and a veterinarian.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is a recipe if you can not find a store bought one used for hook billed birds usually, anyone who raises or breeds parrots or keets may know where to find it.. but here is a recipe for now and more info about it.



MacMilk: Crop Milk Replacer Recipe

1 jar (71 grams) strained chicken baby food
1 hard-boiled egg yolk (16.6 grams)
1 tablespoon low-fat yogurt (15.3 grams)
¼ teaspoon corn oil (1.13 grams)
247.6 mg calcium carbonate
2 drops cod-liver oil (from gel cap)
1 drop vitamin E (diluted 1:10 in corn oil; see notes)
1 small pinch vitamin B complex (see notes)
25 mg. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

For birds days 1 to 3, digestive enzymes (see notes)

Method: Mix all ingredients in a blender. Allow the digestive enzymes to work on the food for ½ hour before using at room temperature. Warm it to 'wrist' temperature before feeding.

Note: because the replacer offers more calories and is more bioavailable than other diets, you may require less than you are used to feeding. Weigh the bird, calculate its energy
requirements and feed accordingly.

MacMilk® Astrid MacLeod and Janine Perlman, 2001©

NOTES

Vitamins: Vitamin E, as purchased, is too 'strong' for the correction required in this diet. Mix one drop of vitamin E (from a 400 IU/ capsule) with 10 drops of corn oil. Shake or stir well. Then, use 1 drop of the diluted vitamin E in the recipe. The remainder can be kept in an airtight container and stored in a cool, dark place. It can be used over the next few days -. Because vitamin E degrades, it will have to be mixed fresh after a
few days, so don't make too much at once. The amount of B complex required is too small to weigh on a gram scale. The amount required for this recipe is a pinch the size of one sesame seed.

Enzymes: Hatchling doves do not have high enough levels of proteases and other enzymes to digest foods well. Although crop milk is high in protein, as described earlier in this section, some of the protein is in the form of 'free amino acids' - thus, already broken down. This is one of the reasons that raising hatchling doves has been very difficult in the past. We can break down the protein in the crop milk replacer by adding digestive enzymes.

Birds days one to three: digestive enzymes must be added to all hatchling diets, and can be discontinued after day three, when the bird's own digestive enzymes are at higher levels. Pancrezyme can be purchased from a veterinary clinic. Enzymes from the health food store probably will not be effective. Because enzymes are required for hatchling diets and in emaciation protocol, they are good to have on hand.

Method: You will require 1/8 teaspoon of enzymes for one recipe of MacMilk. Mix the enzymes with the food 30 minutes before feeding, to allow the enzymes to work on the food. Do not mix enzymes with the day's ration of food - only with what will be used in the next feeding. Otherwise, the diet will spoil. You will have to estimate how much of a recipe of MacMilk you require per feeding based on the number of hatchlings you have to feed. Then, add the enzymes as needed; for example, if you will be using 1/8th recipe of MacMilk,
use a small pinch of enzymes (1/8th the amount of what is required for the whole recipe). To do this, take the amount of food that you'll need for the next feeding and mix it with the enzymes. Let the food sit for 30 minutes before feeding, so that the enzymes can work on the food.

Columbids Day Four and Later: Discontinue the addition of enzymes to MacMilk. Some species begin to mix crop milk with regurgitated (partially digested) seeds or grains sooner than others. Generally, the rule of thumb might be to use crop milk replacer for at least the first week of life, and begin to gradually mix in other foods
over a period of two weeks. During the first days of new additions, the baby bird will not yet be digesting all the carbohydrates, and the high-protein food is still needed for growth and feathering, thus a gradual changeover is necessary. Good choices might be Exact® with gradual additions of foods like mixed-cereal pablum with an added tablespoon of strained baby food corn. 

Feeding technique: To feed older nestling doves, one method allows the baby to 'root'. Pull up formula in a large feeding syringe and then remove the plunger. Across the wide opening of the syringe (not the tip), stretch a piece of vet wrap or rubber dam (used by dentists) that has a hole to accommodate the bull. Secure well with a rubber band. The bird will thrust its bill into the opening and 'drink', much as it does from its parent. These methods can be
messy until you acquire a technique; wipe up any formula on the baby with a Q-tip dipped in warm water.

Some rehabbers prefer to feed nestling doves and pigeons with a tube and syringe. This does take practice; the tube must slide down the side of the throat without getting any fluid into the tracheal opening. Instructions for tube feeding can be found in the fluid therapy section of this manual. As a rehabilitator's tube-feeding skills develop, the amount of formula the doves take at various ages follows a pattern. Although a rehabilitator may attempt to feed quickly at the height of baby season, haste can have serious consequences. Always go slowly when emptying the contents of the syringe into the bird's crop, especially with newly presented birds. Every so often a dove will have a smaller crop capacity than normal and the excess formula can aspirate the bird.

When using a tube and syringe to feed or hydrate any bird, make sure the tubing is soft and flexible. Medical grade tubing is expensive but worth every penny to prevent harm to delicate tissue in the throat and crop.

To prevent impaction, It is very important that the crop be allowed to fully empty before it is filled again. The crop is very noticeable as a sort of pouch that overlays the breastbone. After feeding, the crop should not be hard to the touch. Feed only enough to fill the crop ¾ full -- this feels similar to a hot water bottle that is ¾ full. An impacted crop results when the crop becomes too full for the normal passage of food.

Since doves have larger crops than gaping birds, they do not have to be fed as often. The rule of thumb for doves in their first week of life would be 4 feedings per day, and as the bird moves towards weaning, going to 3 feedings per day and gradually weaning to 2.


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

At this age, the babies are probably not on crop milk. if you are comfertable with this, you could try to thaw some frozen corn a peas for HUMANS and once they have unthawed and are fairly warm ( place them in hot water, but not too hot) you open the beak, and plop them in at the back of the mouth. the babies should swallow them.

hope this helps, others will have better info!

Kevin


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## yopigeonguy (Oct 22, 2009)

BTW: I am in belleville ontario, and if you could drop them off, or if you know someone that goes to belleville, i could take them for you if the parent sdo not feed them, or if you do not have the time to care for them.

Kevin


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Thanks Kevin - if I find that I can't manage it, I will definitely touch base with you. I live alone (well I have 2 cats) and no kids, so feeding them 4 or 5 times a day will be a challenge, but assuming I can get them to eat, I should be able to deal with it for a few weeks. 

Does anyone know at what point they can eat regular Pigeon & Dove mix seed?


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Oh and thanks Spirit Wings - I saw that elsewhere, but thought it wouldn't be right for them, given that their age.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Laurie, thanks for your concern for these little guys.

Well, right now they look healthy and well fed. Is there anyway you could get a large piece of cardboard, about the same depth as the nest, but 4" longer on each side. Make a score on the "down" side, with a sharp blade, but don't cut through, this will allow you to bend an "L" handle up. Now see if you can get the whole nest on this piece or cardboard to move it a little further along where it won't interfere with the work being done, this way even moved the nest will look the same. You may need to use a dust pan or something similar to loosen the edges, the "L" handle will give you a griping handle to sort of wiggle it under. My husband says the cement should set up overnight and you should be able to move them back to their old spot in the morning.

Put out some extra food for the parents help with things, if they can be moved over for part of the day and moved back the next morning, it may not phase the parents too much.

Good luck with them

Karyn


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Thanks Karyn... I was just routing through some old boxes... thinking the same thing.

I just peeped out the window and both the parents have stopped in for the evening feed. And I noticed the parents here today earlier too. They're doing a good job and they don't run off when they see me. 

My only problem is that I don't know when they'll do the work. He said today or tomorrow. It wasn't today, so it could be tomorrow - but if it's not done tomorrow, then it'll be Monday. 

I don't want to move them too early and then have to move them back and forth repeatedly. I've been working from home all week to make sure I'm here when they get to my balcony (i don't fully trust the construction guys not to just throw them over the balcony).

I'm going to keep playing it by ear and hoping for more time for them to grow and be fed properly by their parents... and if I'm lucky, we can slide them over and back without too much upset on the parents.

Thanks so much! 

(oh and I took new pics an hour ago... need to download them, but I'll another in here)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Laurie, sounds like you are very on top of things. I guess you will just have to play it by ear, as you say. If the same guys are working around the entire building, and they know your concern for these little guys (or even if they don't), perhaps you could give them your cell number and ask them to give you a heads-up that they will be showing up in "X" amount of hours to do the work on your balcony. Just a thought.

Please keep us updated,

Karyn


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

I definitely will, thanks Karyn!

Today they got all puffed up when I went near the nest. It was pretty funny. The big guy kept puffing up and rising on his legs to look scary. 

Here's today's photo.


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## The_Dirteeone (Apr 18, 2010)

I have been told that Kaytee hand feeding formula is ok for pigeons,you can get it at petsmart,or most above avarage pet store.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Thanks - I don't live near a PetSmart - they seem to be only out in the burbs. I live downtown and I asked specifically for that and nobody had it. I'll try making some phone calls tomorrow to see if I can find it.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Update - no construction on my balcony today. Didn't have to move the chicks, so they are safe'n sound. 

The chicks are looking amazing. The beginnings of feathers are much more noticeable today.


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## Guest (May 29, 2010)

LaurieP said:


> Update - no construction on my balcony today. Didn't have to move the chicks, so they are safe'n sound.
> 
> The chicks are looking amazing. The beginnings of feathers are much more noticeable today.


if they can just live out a normal pigeon life for two more weeks they would be good to go.. they look great for now hope you can get them thru this whole ordeal with out having to interveine as their parents are their best bet of getting then off to a great start in live on the wing


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

They don't have 2 more weeks. It's days. They'll definitely be pouring cement next week... at least that's what the construction guys tell me. However, you never know - there could be some unexpected delay that holds it off. 

The parents are great. I am feeding them pigeon and dove mix and they aren't "friendly" but they are growing quite comfortable with me being on the balcony and within a foot of them. 

Here's a photo of the parents that I took today after feeding them:









I'd love to see them grow without any interference from people... I am actually hoping the parents make another nest here after these two. I enjoy having them here


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## piegonsrock (Aug 14, 2009)

the parents are beautiful birds


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Laurie, thanks for helping the parents out. I'm sure, even though they can't tell you so themselves, they do appreciate the easy to source extra food, nice looking birds.

Also, thanks again for watching over these little guys,

Karyn


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

It's my pleasure. The little ones are making noises now.. at least noises I can hear. And the feathers are really growing now. I don't know if he'll darken up as he gets older, but the larger one, seems to have a lot more white on him, than either of his parents.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Today's Pics... 

close up of the bigger fella:









And the little one..


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Wow, I see feral pigeons in Toronto actually have two feet. They are beautiful birds.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

I moved the nest tonight.... Good news - they're still feeding them!

The superintendent told me they'd be on my balcony tomorrow morning, and I knew the construction guys wouldn't move the nest carefully. I've been watching the parents and knew they feed around 6:30 or 7pm each night. 

So I took a box and cut it down in size and put it on its side. Using a long spatula, I slid the nest (which wasn't well built because the construction guys wrecked the original one they built when they removed some of the refuse that attracted the pigeons to begin with).

I slide it on to a piece of cardboard and then slid that on the box which was on its side. Unfortunately, the chicks ran off the nest... I was wearing oven mits, in case they pecked at me, so as carefully as I could I picked them up briefly to set them back on the nest inside the box and moved the box to a safe spot on the balcony.

I got bird seed and made a trail leading to the box and sat. Mom and Dad came up and looked around and carefully ate and watched me and the box (sitting on it's side so the chicks weren't in the box as much as on it) with their kids. They'd walk right up to it, but weren't going in it. I noticed the male (or the one I'm assuming is a male) kept looking at the top of it and realized that their old nest was in the corner and protected on 2 sides, but not on top and not on the right.

So I cut away the top part and most of the right side and went inside at 6pm... keeping my fingers crossed that they'd feed them.

At 6:40pm I heard the familiar loud, hungry chirping of the chicks and snuck over to peer out the window and door and they were being fed by both the parents. 

They're feeding regurgitated food now - which I'd not seen before. I didn't want to disrupt them further tonight, so I have a picture, but I literally just stuck my camera through the window and snapped it... so it's a bit blurry, but you can get a sense of how the new nest is situated now. 

I'll keep feeding the parents regularly, so I can be sure they're getting the same level of care, but I'm hoping that the fact that they fed them immediately after the move is good news and now I can just leave them where they are and be comfortable that the construction guys and the pigeon family will all coexist happily.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

The babies are big! They should be on their own soon. And LOL, you don't need mittens to handle baby pigeons they can't hurt you.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

They're 13 and 14 days old... They looked like this, just 6 days ago.

I wasn't all that worried that I'd get hurt, but I also didn't want to jump if they snapped at me (and they do that when I get too close to them for a photo), so the oven mitts were more for my piece of mind than any protection.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Oh and keep in mind, I'm using a zoom lens and getting up very close to them. So they probably look a lot bigger to you than they are in real life.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Here's a pic of the Mom that I took the other day. I've had some lovely comments on it from people elsewhere, so I thought you folks might like it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds good, I was going to warn you when you moved them on the cardboard to cut away as much of it that was showing as possible, so it would not look too strange to them and be off putting. Glad they are used to things around your place and seems like they have accepted their babies new circumstances. Well done, and they are growing little weeds.

Karyn


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

Thanks Karyn - I'm astounded every day by the changes I see in them. I'm glad I've spent more and more time out there with the parents. I can't say for sure, but I think the fact that they've gotten used to me moving about (albeit slowly and carefully), may have made this a bit easier.

I wouldn't say they trust me - because they watch me VERY closely when I'm out there, but they seem to accept me sharing the space and I think they realize that when I'm around, food is around.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

Nice pics! Yeah my baby pigeons are 5 days old, a little younger than in that photo. The parents let me grab the babies to play with, and get right back to sitting on them when I put them back.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

You, sir, take amazing photographs. Or lady, IDK.

And the babies are adorable . I'm happy they are still feeding them!


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

LOL - Lady... My name's Laurie. Thanks very much 



Pawbla said:


> You, sir, take amazing photographs. Or lady, IDK.
> 
> And the babies are adorable . I'm happy they are still feeding them!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Right, I didn't look at the username because they usually don't give out a lot of information xD. Sorry.


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## LaurieP (May 27, 2010)

No worries - there are guys named Laurie too... not many, but they do exist


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