# Grizzle and bluebar babies?



## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

Just wondering, whats the outcome of the babies..?
Im pretty sure it'll be more grizzles..
but yeah what would you call that bluebar?
dilute bluebar?

Grizzle cock and dilute bluebar hen
Just trying to breed them two.. 










....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes the hen is a dilute blue - Some things you can count on - Half the young will be grizzle and you should get some checks or T patterns in their depending on what the grizzle carries. All the cockbirds will carry the dilute gene.

Possibilities, May get some blue bars, May get some bronze birds or kite bronze even, If the cock carries dilute then half of the offspring will be dilute in hens and cocks


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Let's do it with symbols: we will assume the grizzle cock is check split for bar.

Cock: C//c+ G//g+ D+//D+
Hen: c+//c+ g+//g+ d//-

Offspring:
All males will be D+//d and all females will be D+//-
50% G+//g 50% g+//g+
50% C//c+ 50% c+//c+

This give 4 phenotypes each with equal probability (25 %):
Blue bar grizzle
Blue check grizzle (like the father)
Blue bar
Blue check


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

if the cock is not carring dilute you WONT get any dilutes from just the hen. he has to carry it too, you will most likely get blue bars the most, i have a pair like this and i only got 1 grizzle so far, the other 3 were blue bar with a little white on head and a few white primaries.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> if the cock is not carring dilute you WONT get any dilutes from just the hen. he has to carry it too, you will most likely get blue bars the most, i have a pair like this and i only got 1 grizzle so far, the other 3 were blue bar with a little white on head and a few white primaries.


If the grizzle is check het for bar then it would be 50% bar, 50% checks produced from the pair, What do you base the idea that they will most likely get blue bars on?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's the opposite for me. I have a grizzle hen with a blue bar cock and compared to the amount of grizzles I have gotten from them, bars and checks have been rare. It's a 50/50 chance and mine just happens to almost always fall on the grizzle half.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

horseart4u said:


> if the cock is not carring dilute you WONT get any dilutes from just the hen. he has to carry it too, you will most likely get blue bars the most, i have a pair like this and i only got 1 grizzle so far, the other 3 were blue bar with a little white on head and a few white primaries.


It is not unusual to get 1 grizzle and 3 blue bars. Remember that the percentages that are predicted is an average, and you have to breed many birds to get close to that average. 4 just isn't enough.

Also, the white primaries and on the head is due to pied and has nothing to do with the mating. It has been rather commonplace to breed pied and grizzle birds together (white to white as it were), but actually pied markings are not always compatible with grizzle.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I agree, you could breed 100 birds and still not come to a 50/50 ratio even if that's whats expected by odds. For example. Out of a blue het grizzle blue het grizzle pairing you may get 40% storks 50% het grizzles and 10% non grizzles. Although odds say 25/50/25


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree, you could breed 100 birds and still not come to a 50/50 ratio even if that's whats expected by odds. For example. Out of a blue het grizzle blue het grizzle pairing you may get 40% storks 50% het grizzles and 10% non grizzles. Although odds say 25/50/25


It would be very unlikely for anyone to breed 4:5:1 ratio when breeding a hundred birds. But it may very well happen (statistically this would happen to about 4 in 10 million people who did the same experiment)

I've been lucky so far. My ratios usually tend to get fairly close to the expected ratios when I breed more than 10 birds from a pair (2:6:2 ~ 1:2:1). The more you breed, the closer the ratios should become.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

horseart4u said:


> if the cock is not carring dilute you WONT get any dilutes from just the hen. he has to carry it too, you will most likely get blue bars the most, i have a pair like this and i only got 1 grizzle so far, the other 3 were blue bar with a little white on head and a few white primaries.


*Hi Horseart4u,The hen in your mating will pass the dilute gene to the young cocks. They will carry the gene but will not show dilute. However when those young cocks are mated they will pass the dilute gene to some of their young hens. I currently have a pair of Red check Italians Owls, the cock carriy's blue as a second color. In this mating I get only dilue hens as the cock pass the color gene and the dilute gene to the hens and they (the hens)need only one copy * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah unfortunately the genes do not know they are supposed to be on a ratio schedule LOL. I've never really paid attention as there is nothing I can do about it. But I can assume that one pair of mine definitely is not comforming to probability


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> It would be very unlikely for anyone to breed 4:5:1 ratio when breeding a hundred birds. But it may very well happen (statistically this would happen to about 4 in 10 million people who did the same experiment)
> 
> I've been lucky so far. My ratios usually tend to get fairly close to the expected ratios when I breed more than 10 birds from a pair (2:6:2 ~ 1:2:1). The more you breed, the closer the ratios should become.


Unlikely yes - but possible.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

i was just saying my pair so far has given me 1 grizzle and the 3 blue bars, i don't know if i will get any checks from this pair because you can't get checks from bars from what i read, and you can't get dilutes from breeding a dilute hen to a non dilute male unless he carries dilute.
from book "pigeon genics" dilute section: non dilute cock mated to dilute hen =100% non dilute offspring. all cocks from this mating will carry dilute.
non dilute cock that carry dilute to dilute hen = 25% dilute sons, 25% non dilute that carry, 25% dilute daughters & 25% non dilute hen.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes what you say is correct but you stated earlier that from this pairing they will get mostly Blue bars, I was wondering what you based your statement on as the way I see it this pair can produce at the most 50% blue bars, Unless the check is a sooty bar but I do not think thats the case here.


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

right, i am not sure what this guys bird is, a check grizzle or blue bar grizzle, i don't know mine either just the fact that so far i got 3 blue bars and 1 grizzle


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Looking at it I think you can ascertain its a check, Maybe sooty bar but most likely a check


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