# Are pigeons a public health hazard



## timm (Apr 1, 2009)

I raise this question only because I would like to know the answer. I regularly feed my downtown flock in the neighorhood park. I spread seed every day and they gobble it up. During the winter they tend to stay out of sight and get to it when they get to it. In the summer though they hang out in the park and seem to wait for me.
They must be very smart because it became clear they recognized me as feeder. I walked by the park one afternoon but didn't go in with the seed because there were too many people hanging around, and you never know which busy body is going to take it upon themselves to launch into the old, don't feed the birds lecture.
Anyway the birds saw me and got all rattled and a couple lighted on the rail right beside me. Others were following along behind me on foot. It was quite comical. I felt like Dr Dolittle. I did double back and discreetly spread the seed.

Anyway one of our city councillors displayed the following message in big bold letter in her winter flyer.
DON'T FEED THE BIRDS- IT'S NOT GOOD FOR YOU OR THE BIRDS! DID YOU KNOW THAT FEEDING THE BIRDS LEADS TO MORE BIRD POOP WHICH IS A HEALTH HAZARD TO HUMANS AND CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

Is there any merit to what she is squawking about or is she just kissing up to property owners who don't like cleaing up pigeon poop.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

As with everything, there is a tiny possibility, but the odds of your catching a disease from that particular City Councillor must be hundreds, if not thousands, of times higher.

These are some relevant quotes, lifted from an old post by Msfreebird:



> The real experts in the field all agree that there is no tangible health risk to human beings from contact with pigeons:
> 
> Mike Everett, spokesman for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds said, in The Big Issue Magazine, February 2001: "The whole 'rats with wings' thing is just emotive nonsense. There is no evidence to show that they (pigeons) spread disease.”
> 
> ...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

timm said:


> I raise this question only because I would like to know the answer. I regularly feed my downtown flock in the neighorhood park. I spread seed every day and they gobble it up. During the winter they tend to stay out of sight and get to it when they get to it. In the summer though they hang out in the park and seem to wait for me.
> They must be very smart because it became clear they recognized me as feeder. I walked by the park one afternoon but didn't go in with the seed because there were too many people hanging around, and you never know which busy body is going to take it upon themselves to launch into the old, don't feed the birds lecture.
> Anyway the birds saw me and got all rattled and a couple lighted on the rail right beside me. Others were following along behind me on foot. It was quite comical. I felt like Dr Dolittle. I did double back and discreetly spread the seed.
> 
> ...


No, there is NO merit. And Yes, she is kissing up (or down in my eyes - if you get my drift)  That is "hipe" created by exterminating companies to make $$$.
Pigeons are extremely smart, and they DO recognize you.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

How about...as many of us that can create free websites exonerating pigeons from their "rats with wings" and "disease carrying birds" tags? My local newspaper can never write anything about pigeons without referring to them as "the disease carrying birds"! That is the sort of mud that sticks.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Feefo said:


> How about...as many of us that can create free websites exonerating pigeons from their "rats with wings" and "disease carrying birds" tags? My local newspaper can never write anything about pigeons without referring to them as "the disease carrying birds"! That is the sort of mud that sticks.


That's a GREAT idea! Simple websites with positive information about pigeons.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

OK, this took less than half an hour...please excuse the bolds and reds, I am aiming this at a different audience!

http://healthypigeons.yolasite.com/


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

#1 2nd January 2010, 12:05 PM 
M Kurps 
Pigeon Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 103 


Interesting article I found

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an interesting article that I found online posted by the New York City Department of Health. Notice the copy right date (2010). http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi/epi-pigeon.shtml 
Kurps


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

timm said:


> Is there any merit to what she is squawking about or is she just kissing up to property owners who don't like cleaing up pigeon poop.


Pigeons are no more carriers of disease than any other species of birds.

The REAL HAZARD is those who overfeed the birds, which leads to major increase in population and the REAL HAZARD of them then becoming noticeable to the uneducated of mankind who then want to irradicate them in usually in the most cruel way.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Interesting article I found


Thank you, that is a good one. Before reading it I expected it to be full of exaggerations about the danger pigeons pose and was pleasantly surprised .  The source of the article gives it credibility and impact, which is great.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'm glad timm asked that question, as it has brought out some excellent material. The old post by Msfreebird has supplied some names to quotes which gives them solidity. I for one will be using some of that information for our managing agents who attempt to run the apartment complex. In fact, I shall point my contact there to the web page Feefo set up!

John


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f23/the-misconceptions-about-pigeons-and-disease-25811.html


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Lots of good, positive, truthful info here  We're all smart enough than to fall for the myths created about pigeons. They aren't anymore harmful to us than other things around us! How often do you actually hear of people getting sick from something other than ourselves? Or the food we make?
How about the exhaust from cars and factories, and insecticides and other poisons added to crops and everything else to kill pests? Or the new variations of OUR diseases that WE create by not going through proper treatment? How about that global warming? Or the landfills filling up?


News flash! WE are hurting ourselves (and everything around us). We definitely do more damage than pigeons. Their droppings do the same thing as that of any other animal. They can all transfer disease if you somehow ingest it, and they can all be corrosive (its just depending on certain levels of things, they may mess up statues more quickly  ). Pigeons don't intentionally harm us, or any other animals. They just go along eating seeds and doing what they need to survive.

Soooo I think we have bigger things to worry about than harmless little birds! If they were that dangerous, I'd be dead! As would most of our members here.


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## Elizabethy (Sep 25, 2007)

*Sticky*

Hello-

Lots of great info here. I think this would be a great Sticky.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

YES PIGEONS ARE A GREAT HEALTH PROBLEM. FIRST THEY START BY MAKING INTERESTED IN THEM. THEN WANTING THEM, THEN BUILDING A LOFT FOR THEM, THEN THEY GET YOU HOOKED ON KEEPING THEM, THEN COMES WANTING MORE, GOING TO SHOWS RACING THEM WATCHING THEM, THEN YOU FIND YOURSELF THINKING ABOUT THEM AT WORK AT SCHOOL AT HOME, THEN YEARS GO BY AND YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE THEM. SO I GUESS YES THEY ARE A HEALTH THREAT TO EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER KEPT THEM. BECAUSE THEY ONCE GET YOU HOOKED YOUR HEALTH SEEMS BETTER BECAUSE THEY MAKE YOU HAPPY ABOUT SOMTHING> 




































thinking about them


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Lol! Yes, re_lee is right, they are a health hazard! <3.
One day... I'll get pigeon pets, I swear xD. These are the sweetest birds in earth.


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## PoppyFieldVet (Apr 9, 2009)

It exasperates me when I hear and see people treating them the way they do. 
On holiday I noticed some pigeons nesting and coming to drink from the pool, along with the other wildlife. Back home we saw that complaints about the "vast number of dangerous pigeons and pigeon poo" should be reduced. I explained they carried no health risk and that we should learn to live with the other animals we share our planet with. She replied with a essay, which funnily enough was copied and pasted from a pest control company website. 


I replied:

Unfortunately it seems you have been ill-informed. The website you have copied and pasted that information from, is a company which makes money from controlling pigeon populations (http://www.handr.co.uk/literature/feral_pigeons.htm). It is in the interest of pest control companies and those associated with pest control to make pigeons seem as dangerous and unpleasant as possible. These companies pay for research into the hazards pigeons pose to our health. Their statements are always exaggerated. 
Health officials, doctors and veterinary surgeons as well as scientists have ridiculed the accusations that pigeons are harmful to our health. 
For example, Dr. Michael McNeil the Centres for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta stated "...diseases associated with [pigeons] present little risk to people..."
Dr. Manuel Vargas, New York City Department of Health stated "The New York City Department of Health has no documented cases of communicable disease transmitted from pigeons to humans."
Dr. Joel McCullough, the Medical Director of Environmental Health, Chicago Department of Public Health stated "Pigeons are not a public health hazard. Nobody in public health is losing any sleep over pigeons."
Dr. Marshall Lyon, National Centre for Infectious Diseases, Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta. “We do have some concern about the indiscriminate killing of pigeons.” “[For example, histoplasmosis disease rates are] misleading and irrelevant, because histo’s so ubiquitous. It’s in the soil, regardless of whether pigeons are around or not...” 
The list goes on. If you would like to see more please visit: http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/zoonoses/ExprtsRePijZoonos.html
In fact, it has been proven that pigeons pose such little health hazard that you are more likely to be struck by lightning. Pigeons pose such a minute risk to human health, pest control companies have resorted to scaring the public into believing that they are something to be worried about. The disturbing exposure that these birds may be carrying 40-70 diseases is ludicrous. 
Pigeons do carry some zoonotic diseases, (zoonotic meaning diseases transferable between animal and human) however, the chances of you catching any one of them is infinitesimally small. If you are planning on eating pigeon poo, the pigeons or their eggs you certainly will be at risk of getting Salmonella poisoning, but there is no other way of getting Salmonellosis from pigeons. 
There have been countless discussions on pigeons primarily in areas where their numbers have reached the thousands. One particular area was famous for its pigeon population, Trafalgar Square. The exact number of birds living and visiting the square was unknown, but it was estimated as anything between 3500 to 40,000 birds. If we are talking about mass “infestations”, this is certainly a case which would qualify as comparable. A lot of people visited Trafalgar Square to feed those birds, one man in particular, Bernard Rayler, had been feeding the birds regularly for many years as his family had been selling tubs of bird seed on the square for over half a century. To my knowledge, London’s hospitals were not inundated with people suffering from pigeon-related diseases and neither did Mr Rayler ever suffer from any either. In fact, before the Government decided to stop people feeding the pigeons, the Chief Veterinary Officer told the House of Lords that the large number of pigeons did not represent a health risk to human beings. 
Sadly, a lot of those pigeons have suddenly found themselves without a food source. 
There are three ‘zoonotic’ diseases pigeons carry. Please see quotes from specialists below

“Psittacosis - Since 1996, fewer than 50 confirmed cases were reported in the United States annually. In New York City, psittacosis is VERY RARE with less than ONE human case identified each year. According to the CDC, about 70% of infected people had contact with infected pet birds – not pigeons.

Cryptococcosis - Approximately 0.4-1.3 cases per 100,000 people in the general population are reported. It is very unlikely that healthy people will become infected even at high levels of exposure.

Histoplasmosis – An incidence is not reported so it is assumed to be low. Once again immunocompromised individuals are at greater risk and those in third world countries”.
http://peopleforpigeons.blogspot.com/2007/11/understanding-zoonotic-diseases-of.html

Finally, the issue concerning building structure is also unfounded. The only cases where pigeons become a problem in terms of structural damage is when hundreds of birds roost daily within loft spaces or in abandoned houses for months, if not years at a time. 
The information you have copied came from a company which makes money from scaring the public. Its accusations are out of context and out of proportion and certainly do not apply to the marina, if anywhere. 
For pigeon populations to become a “nuisance” there has to be two main factors drawing them in. First and foremost is food, where pigeons have found a reliable food source, they will return. The second is roosting space-this is not nesting space but where the birds sleep in numbers for their own protection. 
The pigeons at the marina are currently present for two reasons, nesting space and water. As I previously mentioned, the nesting space can be removed in the winter. The pigeons will continue to visit for brief drinks, but as no food is available to them on the complex, they will not have any other reason to visit. As long as rubbish is not left out, and food is not given to the birds, they will not return for it. 
Finally the buildings are also not in danger of damage due to pigeon poo. As birds can fly and do land on rooftops you will find some on windowsills, the floor and possibly around the pool. Most of this will be removed by weather in the winter; the rest can be hosed or brushed off. In order for the poop by the pool to be harmful, you would probably have to drink half the water in the pool. In conclusion, the pool itself is a much greater health hazard than any number of pigeons, and this is because of the number of microbes we carry, nothing to do with pigeons or their poop. 

In summation, pigeons do not pose a threat to people in any context. The zoonosis they do carry are not dangerous and documented cases are rare. Any case of someone having a pigeon related illness is rare, and most of them happen to people who work with or own the pigeons. 

Pigeons create no risk to either property or health in the marina, and will not do so in the future. I know many people who have dedicated their lives to these birds, and are trying to raise awareness about their plight. If you have any questions/queries about pigeons, their diseases please don’t hesitate to ask. If I can’t answer a question, I’m sure I’ll be able to find someone who will. I also have the links to any sources I have used. Please note, it is very difficult to find negative information on pigeons from those other than pest control companies or those associated.

Charlotte 


However, she persisted on another forum. Thankfully, someone had been following the posts and copied and pasted my argument in response to hers! Sadly, she decided to find out about pest control and to my knowledge she appears to have bought spikes for her roof. 

Quite why people dislike them so much is beyond me, however as soon as you open your heart to them, people start to notice and think again.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

And an excellent response it was, Charlotte

John


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## timm (Apr 1, 2009)

Feefo said:


> OK, this took less than half an hour...please excuse the bolds and reds, I am aiming this at a different audience!
> 
> http://healthypigeons.yolasite.com/


Thanks,I'm going to send this link to the Toronto city councillor in question, Shelley Carroll. Short and sweet with a cute picture of an innocent pigeon having a bath.
Thanks to all the other responses as well!


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## PoppyFieldVet (Apr 9, 2009)

Absolutely!!! It is a gorgeous photo. 


XxX


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## timm (Apr 1, 2009)

Trees Gray said:


> Pigeons are no more carriers of disease than any other species of birds.
> 
> The REAL HAZARD is those who overfeed the birds, which leads to major increase in population and the REAL HAZARD of them then becoming noticeable to the uneducated of mankind who then want to irradicate them in usually in the most cruel way.


How do we address this HAZARD then? The city councillor was telling us not to feed the birds and she meant pigeons. Her concern was health.
However this post raises another issue. Should we be feeding the feral flocks in major urban centres.
I have my adopted flock of about 30 or 40. I feed them because they seem to be always foraging so I help them out by dumping seed in the same place in the same park every day. I drop about 3 "cups" measured cup, with overflow, about 30 oz volume per day. They could eat a heck of a lot more.
Am I contributing to a problem? I am aware of busybodies, that will tell you not to feed the pigeons, so I stealth feed them to avoid such exchanges.
I'm a pigeon lover. I really find them to be interesting creatures who are fun to watch so I try to help them out and I've rescued a couple to the Toronto Wildlife Centre in the last year or so. It was the rescue experience that caused me to take more notice of the rest of them. For most of my life I haven't paid much attention to them. Now I am a huge convert.
They make the urban experience that much more enjoyable.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Feefo said:


> OK, this took less than half an hour...please excuse the bolds and reds, I am aiming this at a different audience!
> 
> http://healthypigeons.yolasite.com/


That's a great page. Great idea!


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## timm (Apr 1, 2009)

Well it seems the Toronto Wildlife Centre although they are more than happy to rescue animals does not want us to feed them. If the city councillors staff are on the ball, they might refer me to this link below. Still I think the councillor overstates the health hazard concerns.

As big city pigeon lovers what do you think the appropriate repsonse is to city pigeon feeding and to those that tell us not to?
====
http://www.torontowildlifecentre.com/pages/faq/faq.html#q6

6. Is it a good idea to feed wildlife?

Toronto Wildlife Centre does not encourage feeding wild animals for several reasons: 

Feeding wild animals encourages them to view humans as a food source, when humans should be viewed as the potentially dangerous predators they are. It may be tempting to offer food to a cute Raccoon that has been coming to your backyard, but what happens when that same raccoon approaches another person who does not have such good intentions? That person may feel threatened and may harm the animal, not realizing the Raccoon has been trained to expect food from a human. Toronto Wildlife Centre receives many calls about conflicts with wildlife for this very reason 
Feeding wild animals discourages them from foraging for their natural food sources. This can lead to health problems, as fed wildlife may not get all of the necessary nutritional requirements from what is for them an unnatural, and very likely unbalanced, diet. For example, many people enjoy feeding bread to Canada geese. Unfortunately, bread is not a nutritious or natural food source for geese, and the result is that they produce much more feces than they would with a more nutritional diet. This is because there is less nutrients to absorb into the goose's system, so more is passed as waste. It is therefore best to allow the animals to find and eat their natural food items 
Feeding wildlife often encourages different species to congregate together when they would not naturally do so, leading to potentially fatal problems for some wildlife. Backyard birdfeeders (especially ones that are not cleaned out on a regular basis) often harbour bacteria and other organisms which can cause infections in some birds. For example, Toronto Wildlife Centre has admitted many birds in the finch family suffering from conjunctivitis, a condition that causes inflammation of the eye tissues. A bird with this condition will die without proper medical treatment at a wildlife centre 
Knowing all of this, it is easy to see that there are many more benefits to not feeding wildlife than there are to feeding them. If you would like to offer a food source to wild animals, consider planting native flowers, shrubs and trees in your yard that would offer a natural food source, while at the same time providing shelter and other habitat benefits.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

How is it any different to just throw some seeds in your backyard from planting a tree, shrub, or flowers that throw some seeds in your backyard? Isn't it better for their health to feed them an appropriate mix?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Unfortunately there is no "natural food source" for city pigeons, in one way or another they are dependent on humans. As for the other arguments presented a lot of them could apply equally as well to feeding humans in restaurants, cafes and fast food outlets.

However, having been a compulsive pigeon feeder to the extent of suspecting that it was a case of OCD I have to say that I think it is best to avoid feeding them every day and at the same time. This causes an aggregation of pigeons in the same spot . I once started by feeding a single pigeon in a quiet street near my office and within a couple of weeks had 60 pigeons waiting for me every evening and an irate householder who threatened to shoot the pigeons and throw them in my garden. 

Once I no longer worked in the city centre I was able to control my pigeon feeding by gradually reducing it to a couple of times a week, which ensured that they would not starve.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

timm said:


> Well it seems the Toronto Wildlife Centre although they are more than happy to rescue animals does not want us to feed them. If the city councillors staff are on the ball, they might refer me to this link below. Still I think the councillor overstates the health hazard concerns.
> 
> As big city pigeon lovers what do you think the appropriate repsonse is to city pigeon feeding and to those that tell us not to?
> ====
> ...


Actually all of this does make sense. This is what happens. Most of our yard is planted with things that are food sources for the birds and critters that come around, but I do also provide seed in feeders, and fruit in the summer months. and I can get lax about cleaning them as often as I should during the colder months. I'll start doing that a lot more often.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

timm said:


> How do we address this HAZARD then? The city councillor was telling us not to feed the birds and she meant pigeons. Her concern was health.
> However this post raises another issue. Should we be feeding the feral flocks in major urban centres.
> I have my adopted flock of about 30 or 40. I feed them because they seem to be always foraging so I help them out by dumping seed in the same place in the same park every day. I drop about 3 "cups" measured cup, with overflow, about 30 oz volume per day. They could eat a heck of a lot more.
> Am I contributing to a problem? I am aware of busybodies, that will tell you not to feed the pigeons, so I stealth feed them to avoid such exchanges.
> ...


I don't think that leaving them a little seed is hurting anything. Maybe you should do it every other day so that they are not hanging around waiting for you. I don't know the answer. I feed them too. And on occasion, the seagulls.


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## timm (Apr 1, 2009)

Agreed Jay3 we have to be discreet.
As feefo says there doesn't appear to be a natural food source for city pigeons. All over the world, they congregate in the large public squares where the humans are. The Toronto equivalent to Trafalgar Square is Union Station. The pigeons long ago apparently decided that their food source is where humans congregrate in large number outdoors.
Personally I think it's a non issue as long are there are no human health issues which clearly there are not. People feed birds simply because they like the birds. Pigeons though unlike most of the city wildlife encourage the feeding. They flock to the humans.
Unfortunately pigeons are a nuisance to those that have to clean up their poop or are bothered by their flocking in large numbers. This won't change but I do think it is important for us big city pigeon lovers to be vigilant about countering any pigeon as health hazard, scaremongering.
By the same token we have to be smart about feeding them. Swaggering into a park with a bag of seed and suddenly attracting 60 pigeons out of nowhere is going to be off putting to many of our fellow humans, simply because of the commotion.
Toronto Wildlife is well intentioned. They discourage feeding to protect wildlife from getting comfortable with humans.
However wtih pigeons, the genie is long out of the bottle and its not going back in. City pigeons have developed their own system for balancing the danger/food source equation of interacting with humans. I am sure they appreciate the sentiments from City Wildlife but theyv'e got it under control, unlike other wildlife which aren't quite as smart.
I try to stealth feed my little flock. I ideally dump the seed when they are not around, such as evening when they have roosted for the night. That way they will grab it first thing in the morning and not attract as much attention. I made this adjustment when it became clear they were recognizing me and flocking in anticipation of my pending arrival.
I wouldn't care excecpt for the fact that I don't want to turn other people against the pigeons. And again I only feed them to help them out with the daily foraging routine. I may actually be doing the local mall owners a favour by feeding them early so they don't spend the day hanging around the mall looking for lunch scraps.
I think as city pigeon lovers though we need to respond to any poltical or media noise about not feeding the birds because they are a health hazard. The real reason is that property owners don't like cleaning up mess so they play the phony heatlh hazard card.
Property owners have to understand they can't have it both ways. If they intend to attract large flocks of humans, the pigeons come with them and a percentage of those humans will feed the brids, simply because they like the birds.
Large commercial property owners and city owned property managers need to understand that cleaning up mess is part of the job. The combination of humans, wildlife and nature will create daily mess.
Deal with it. Clean it up. Its a cost of doing business. Give the birds a break.


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