# Mr. Al"s visit to the surgeon



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well last week I took Mr. Al. to one of my three Vets for a quick exam because he had a growth under his wing that I did not catch too early-good size. She the vet is real close to my home and is at times more convenient then the other two because of having to drive long distances (I don't drive too much especially on the interstate--too crazy with cars). Mr. Al. is a special needs pigeon who hit some wires 5 or 6 years and I found him next to green dumpster trash can next a gas station laying on his side with both eyes bleeding,swollen and shut so I bring him home and start feeding him and supporting him all around--his whole side was in bad shape.He stayed in my house for 10 or 11 months recuperating and the end result was he could see real good out of the left eye but the right one was blinded. His orginal name was Alice but he became Mr. AL and king of loft and takes no crap off of any other pigeon---he is a large one--weigh watchers plan ...So today I took him to my main vet the surgeon who works on all the birds of prey and I know you racers are thrilled about that as I left him overnight I asked the vet if he had any eagles or hawks around because my Al would hear them and get scared he assured me he didnt have any at this time-just some guinee pigs and rabbitts and a cuckatoo so I left him overnight for the morning surgery. 
Al is about 7 years old and has a large tumor under the left wing that is hard and necrotic (I hope I got the word right) He said it was compact and loose and not too bounded up in the tissues and he aspirated to get a sample twice. He will do surgery in the morning and if it is cancerous my directions are to put the bird down and they will call me tomorrow and I felt bad leaving Mr. Al. with his one eye looking right at me so we will know tomorrow so we all say our birdie prayers the big old thing does okay.....I will keep all my newly acquired birdie friends posted....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

continued....The tumor is under is right wing not left..His left eye is blind.....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert,


If it does biopsy to be Cancer, don't have him put down.

He's healthy as it is?


He may well shrug it off and the Tumor diminish and eventually be gone on it's own.


Diet, special 'Teas' ( which they like, ) can also aid.


Happy to relay recipes if you wished.


I've seen huge ( 'Walnut Sized' ) totally involved Tumors shrivel and go away where the Vet had said "Eeeesh...Hopeless...best euthenize.."


So...

It's open ended...we never know if a Bird's system can resolve it on their on, and or with some halp from us with diet...and, time alone can say.



Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> If it does biopsy to be Cancer, don't have him put down.


I agree, I hope (and expect) that it is a benign tumour, but even if it isn't, as long as he has quality of life let him enjoy it.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Ohhh, I agree. If he was otherwise healthy and active before surgery, I would wait it out. He sounds like a tough bird and a survivor.
Hope everything works out OK.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for the imput sure appreciate and will let you all know how it turns out and I have seened how cancer works when it's malignant and it would not be good for me or the bird--Al must be about 7 or 8 years old the he had a second chance in life and it would be easier to put him down when he is asleep then to go through this process again and there are so many birds out there that could move into his spot---I have a wild one right now thats making a mess of my kitchen floor with scattering seeds all over and now its sitting on the table looking at a dish of lettuce and apple pieces and I"m saying "No" because it wants to fly to another area other than the cage" "Let me have my morning coffee bird"" Got you---..I have total trust in this Vet and for me this is the right way and if it is Beign--which it could be---we have some healing ahead and he will do just fine--depends on the extent of tissue removed---Thanks for the imput and I"m waiting it out and I am just hoping for him to fly again cause he loves it so much but if not I will have him be a bottom dweller (nest box) and have a little door made for him to go outside in the sun and take a bath with the rest and he likes the bottom anyway--food and water he can guard and keep the others from getting too fat...So we will see...


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I hope that Mr. Al is doing well, and that his tumor is not cancerous - please keep us posted.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Update: 11am : cytology is biene and they are doing surgery at 11:30 and I should know something about 12: or 12:30pm---they will call me and I will let you all know what I know at that time----It's 11:10 a.m. right now here....c.hert


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear the tumor is benign, thank you for letting us know.

Hope to hear soon how he is doing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad to hear...


Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Update: Mr. Al is doing wonderful and the doctor removed a very large intact tumor that was encapsulated and they had to take some of his muscle but he has most of his muscle and I need to call them at 3pm to make arrangements for his pick up today after I call and make sure he is still stable as he is now and this I will do and get him home tonight and thank God because tomorrow snow is coming and I don't drive in the snow so I hope he remains stable----the people think he is a problem bird because they went to get him out of the cage thinking he would back up but Al went forward and hit the young assistant in the lip as he tried to fly out and he us a very strong bird and even the vet made a comment on that so I hope he continues to be strong...c.hert


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Sounds to me like you have taken excellent care of him, that he is so strong.

I'm glad the surgery went well, I hope he perks up quickly and enjoys his ride home.

Please do update again when he is settled in.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I just laughed my hiney off!

SIC 'EM!!!

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

C.hert, sounds like you have got a tough pigeon there. Good to read that he is doing well after the op

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is wonderful news!


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## mtripOH (Jan 4, 2010)

c.hert, I am so glad you found Mr Al when you did! He sounds like a real trooper. I am happy to hear that the surgery went well and that the tumor was benign. I know you must be relieved, to say the least. I will be hoping for a speedy recovery for Mr Al!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I got him home and he looks handsome and his left wing looks normal once again--not jutting out-I have not looked on the underside but he does seem very happy to be at home especially with the Diamond Doves making noises in the birdroom where he is and soft music playing---this is what they are used to and he really looks good... The doctor suspects Necrolizing Lipoma and he needs to rest for 7 days-no flying or flapping and the sutures are absorbable and no medicine for him. The Vet already gave him pain medicine and I asked the vet to give some for me but he refused--just for the bird.. His fecal test was normal and I asked him about the color of it steel grey and it might come from the grey high calcuim grit that I have been giving him and I guess he has been eating a lot of it..???? It was called a large Mass removal...I don"t believe this bird--he is in his cage eating like he never ate before and I told him just to relax and hang out.
Cold air is coming and snow so my family is all snuggled in waiting for the storm. Thank you everyone for your support and good wishes on this day..c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

C.hert, I have been following your thread, and it's one less little ache on my mind that it all turned out well for Al, I am so happy.

Wishing you both continued happiness together,

Karyn


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm also so glad to hear Mr. Al came through the surgery so well. He sounds like a tough guy and a very special pigeon.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm so happy all turned out good! That's one tough little birdie


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

So glad the Mr. Al is doing good and it wasn't cancer. I think everyone on here is happy to hear that as I'm sure you were also. Since Mr. Al is the king of the roost does he have a mate? I love seeing my mated pigeons, and think I wish I could find someone to sit on my eggs for hours a day. There love for one another is like NO other. min


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes Mr. Al. has a mate her name is Allie and he has two children too alisha and alexcia and they all look just like him a large grey checker wild pigeon--his wife -I got her after a storm and she was seed eating but very weak--just a baby--too weak to fly and you should see her now--too big to fly....But Al loves her. For most of the time I keep my birds separated: males on one side and females on the other side and then I don't get into having any more birds--last babies I had was about 2 or 3 years ago, The birds find other ways to be happy and they communicate between the fencing with each other.
They seem to be a lot healthier this way because the females instead of being forced back to the nest are now sitting on a swing swinging in the sun and taking nice long baths in the warmer weather and eating their fill and not herded away back to their nests..--they seem healthy and the males do too--for now anyway--as I get older they get older so I am sure it will naturally thin out in time if I don't increase too much in population--for they all have names and they are all pets...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

update on Mr. Al.. Wing is wonderful flying excellent but he does not walk very good and I really check out his feet really good and to my surprise his one foot is really swollen and I will take him to the vet tomorrow and I have a feeling it is bumblefoot and this really scares me since he has come out of my loft a few week back is not that contagious (if he has it) ??? I will keep you posted---anybody know anything about bumblefoot in real life experience?? c.hert


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## wayne f (Oct 25, 2009)

chert
Bumble foot is not contagious.. He may have gotten a small nick and caused an infection. I have never seen bumblefoot in a pigeon, but I have seen it with hawks and falcons when I did rehab. Surgery can cure it but most times not


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks so much wayne f and I will keep you posted on what the vet says tomorrow and just that information you gave makes me feel better and I sure hope it is just a knick because you would think the vet would have picked up on this when Mr. Al had his tumor removed from his wing and I thought he was not walking because of the large tumor--maybe he thought that too--I missed it too until today---thanks for the response and I will keep you posted on Mr. Al.....Just a worry wort I am....c.hert


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Better get him on an antibiotic. I'd probably start out with Doxycycline.

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Pidgey nice to know which one is best and I will see the vet tomorrow to verify this swollen foot and what it might be--if it is bumblefoot---which I do think it is but there are diverse opinions on this---and I just wonder if it is contageous and this upsets me some considering I took Mr. Al out of the main loft about 2 weeks ago and I hope this doesn't turn into something more than just one bird --but I will ask the vet about this but its nice to know the antibiotic in case I have to give it now and in the future--scarey stuff this is--hope it is just a sore--but I doubt this--wishful thinking.. I"ll keep you posted on this affair---his wing is wonderful by the way...c.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I had a young hen with bumblefoot a few years back. I took her to the vet and it cleared up with antibiotics. No one else had a problem. We think she probably nicked her foot which allowed bacteria to get in and cause infection.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

update everyone: Mr. Al. does not have Bumblefoot and this is affecting both his feet which are swollen and it is gout and once it gets into his foot their is no way they can clear it out--now sometimes--they do do surgery and have to cut pretty extensively to get the creamy stuff out which is uric acid (I could be spelling this wrong for I need to look it up )this is a build up that won't go away and it is also affecting his kidneys but we can put a stop to the buildup with the medicine (allopuurinol 10mg) and I give him 0.25 cc twice a day as well as pain medicine at the same time 2 times a day and that is Metacam 1.5mg and this seems to be working very good so far. The doctor and I talk about his quality of life and maybe just ending it right now for he is very old but the doctor thinks that his quality if very good right now for he is flying and walking (just can't perch because of feet being swollen) and his attitude is real good and he has a real drive to stay alive and his eye is alert and his weight is good and he enjoys eating and as long as we can control the pain he will do just fine--living in the house --with me--and sleeping on my pillow and flying around aggravating me all he can--so we decided to just do the medicine especially the pain Metacam and as long as his quality of life is up we will continue this for awhile then when it no longer is keeping him out of pain and quality of life then it will be time for him and I look at this now as well as the doctor as a hospice for pigeon. So Mr. AL is home and pain free and being a pain in the --- which is normal for him and right now he is sitting on top of my radio (larger one) and of course I now have to get his pillow for him and his swollen feet...Thanks everyone for your very valuable imput....c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

C.hert, I am sorry to hear about Al's trouble with his feet. Out of curiosity, how were his feet before surgery, did the onset of his feet issues happen after his operation?

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Metacam is very hard on the liver, should be given once a day for avian patients, as per the manufacturer and no longer than 3 days.

Meloxicam (Metacam) - nonsteroidal antiinflammatory: can-0.2 mg/kg SQ, IV or PO on first day, then 0.1 mg/kg once daily, rats- 1.0 mg/kg SQ or PO SID, avian- 0.5 mg/kg PO or SQ SID 

From the Veterinary Formulary.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

My vet and I discussed the very thing that you are mentioning and you must keep in mind that Mr. Al is in a bird Hospice and will not ever get any better and what we are doing is to keep the pain non existent so he can have a quality of life for his last dance.
Metacam is a pain medicine and he will be on it every day 2 times a day and right now Mr. Al looks very comfortable for the first time in weeks and he has eaten wonderful as well as fly---he's doing as well as expected for now---when the time comes we will gently put him down...might be one month...might be two...etc...I wish I had some of that pain stuff...Why he is looking at me with his one good eye saying --this stuff is good in pigeon talk....thanks for the imput....c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

If Al is going to be on long term hospice pain meds, you may want to speak to your vet about prescribing butorphanol for Al, (this is an opiate based med, not an NSAID as Metacam is), the dosage would be 3mg/kg twice a day. Your vet may tell you that it is an injectable med, but Dr. Speer makes an oral suspension using the injectable for avians and this is one way he uses it. For high pain management my understanding is that it is much more effective than Metacam, and you don't have the liver issues with it to worry about.

Did you see the question I asked in my post #20?

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for the imput and I will question my doctor about the medicine that you recommanded and I can't seem to find post #20 and its not in this thread-I checked- so where is it Dobato? In time I'll let you all Know what the answers are to the questons and I will check on that butorphanol for Al but these medicines are made up in the Vets office and maybe thats the difference or answer and I am keeping an eye on the pain aspect---Al also has kidney problems as well with the urates--passing fine no pain there but problems--thats why the bullet silver white droppings but the vet also checked another way to make sure...He is comfortable and sound asleep now in his cage that he flew back to and thanks for the replies..c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sorry, I made a typo, should have typed #30.

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I never saw that post and When Al had his surgery on his wing we were all paying attention to that and thought that was why he was not flying or walking well and I never noticed his feet being swollen because he basically has very large feet and I even washed them in epson salts to clean him up for the surgery and he is old and his nails I trimmed as well--cruddy looking feet--old cruddy looking wrinkles crooked nails--the whole bit and I never noticed them being swollen--and the vet he never noticed either for I asked him why he did not pick up on this at surgery time--I guess he never examined them so to answer to your question --maybe this started after surgery but we just were not paying attention to the feet--so I really don't know---but I did make a comment about the silver grey white droppings that were very dry looking and the vet did not seem concerned with that said in the test nothing detectable on the fecal..I believe he had this gout at his surgery but we just did not pick up on it thinking he was hobbling because of his very very large wing dragging with the encapsulated tumor. Now that he is flying we can now see his feet better and the color was different very swollen and sore looking on one---but in actually it is both....Sorry I missed that question...I am going to print some of these messages on this thread and bring them to the Vet on the 27th for Al"s next check up and I will let you know some of the answers. My printer right now is messed up and I am waiting for the computer person to get here but they have not arrived yet and I am very computer stupid--lucky I can type some....c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do mice, by chance get into your loft?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Not in my loft--my loft is tight--and I just won't have mice or rats--for I hate to say it but I will put down poison--and I check for this very often---and I also have those electrical thingy's that make sound to keep small animals like mice away but I have not had to use it yet and I wonder if it would work if I need it. My problems some times are skunks (in the city) but I have guards on all windows and doors--they can't get at my birdies but sometimes I smell them and I already lived trapped one and took it far far away and released (50 miles away)--As long as I get some skunk smell I really notice that no rats or mice are around....No bugs either...I dipped my pigeons twice a year or more...My problem is wild pigeons hanging around and I have stopped feeding them awhile back but I chase them with my broom (as much as I hate to) and in very very cold weather I might get weak and feed them---but in the warm months---No---I have saved a lot of them because when they get sick they come to my back door and sit there waiting for me to clean the loft every morning---I am a real chump...c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

C.hert, I was wondering, and perhaps Charis is too by the nature of her question, whether there is a chance that Al has a paratyphoid (salmonella) infection and not gout, or perhaps paratyphoid and gout, and the paratyphoid is not being picked up on. Coincidences always make me a little uneasy and with Al's recent wing "tumor" and now swollen feet, my mind is itching a bit. So nobody noticed swollen feet before the operation, how was he walking and if he a limping a bit for how long, and is it worse now? What tests did the vet do to diagnose gout and did he consider and complete rule out paratyphoid?

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Dobato and Charis : I know you two care a lot about Al and of course about me losing him some day but you can right now put your mind at ease because you might disagree with the Vets prescription of medicine over pain management vrs a lesser one that might affect his liver but I have full faith in this very special and talented Avian Vet who has treated birds for over 35 years as well as being a excellent surgeon sometimes it is good to go with a program if you have faith in your vet---I have faith---full faith---and also one needs to have faith in my judgements knowing a good one from a bad one and knowing what diagnosis this is with the effects that Al has been feeling. Mr. Al is very much better today with this medicine. I believe that the vet gave Al this medicine because of its inflamatory effects and trying to get his feet less swollen and it is working if that was the reason. We can't get the uric acid buildup out of the feet (only by surgery--awful affair---too old---its time for him...Kidneys failing...build up of uric acid).. and for now this is the best decision. Sometimes people can carry on something just too much because they really care and are concerned but it helps them adjust their mental pictures to the situation just by trying to share their experiences because they know it worked for them....Thank you for your whole hearted support---I will end this thread now and start a brand new one and I just might call it : Twinkle Toes and Tulip because thats what Mr. Feathers and Mr. Pretty has turned into and when I get the droppings back I will gladly put those two on the male side of the loft and have my house back except of course for our friend Mr. Al here sitting on the radio with a pillow under him looking very much more comfortable....Thanks once again....c.hert---This thread is ended for me........


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

C.hert,

I just now got onto this thread (don't get around to everything every day, or every post or every thread, sometimes hit and miss) and am glad I did. I usually follow your threads, but often am too tired to keep up.

Sounds like *AL* is one strong, opinionated pigeon. Perhaps he is just trying out different afflictions and diseases to round out his _Life Experiences_ list? LOL.

Keep him around if at all possible. Seems to me he will keep you and all who come into contact with him honest and toeing the line. LOL. We need more birds in our lives like Al. LOL. Puts some extra fun into the forums, amid the ups and downs of the pigeon stories. 

Larry


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well Larry Cologne I thought this thread was just going forward as a dead end of sickness and no one would be interested anyway in anything else but with your encouragement I have decided to continue on this thread and update on this very old bird---Snow or no Snow I put two birds pigeons (twinkle toes and tulip ) back into the loft (the male side--they are both male) and immediately Tulip went to his old nest box and threw a younger male out (owly) and now Twinkle Toes and Tulip are in there moaning and groaning--what a pair---as well as Speckles and Sandleback moaning and groaning the nesting box about Twinkle Toes and Tulips box---These four pigeons have
a different outlook on pigeon life...The main point of all this is I have brought Mrs Al into my home and her name is Allie--she's upset right now in the large cage to get used to things but in a day or two she will get over it and like it because she has her husband Mr. Al with her and he is outside her cage very interested and looking in trying to peck at the wire---his attention is now off of me----thank God----and the two can live in my extra bedroom (bird health room where I put sick bird that I find or pull out of the loft).
I don't believe in Flock treatment unless I really have to so I pull them singely out and get a diagnosis and get them well if I find sick ones which is very very rare--they are all getting some age on them and I have 60 or some pigeons separated on two sides for their own good because I decide this....They seem healthier this way especially the females but once in awhile I let them get together--when it is warmer---and I can tell you it turns into Valentines Day....Thanks for your very nice response and I guess this thread will just have to continue about Mr. Al...and Allie and Al have two children in the loft--a pretty very large checkered female and a handsome Dude that is also checkered: Allie and Al are both wild pigeons orginally and saved..Their childrens name are
Alvin and Alvina as I remember--I need to check my pigeon book for this--very healthy and large off spring and getting older now....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

And when I say extra bedroom this is untrue because I have a one bedroom house and I am now evacuated with all my bedroom things into the living room and it is very nice-for I sold my living room furniture and I have a very comfortable home and my friends just visit me in my living room bedroom now---the pigeons have encouraged this and they now have their own complete room with plenty of sunshine perches and cages and a bathtub that I put when I think it is time for a bath tub a shallow plastic round one that they love and of course I have to line the floor with plastic when they take a bath for I have hardwood floors that clean nicely enough and two venelation fans in the windows that I turn on every morning to aire out the room for the new day--this keeps me happy and I guess I'm a clean fanatic....c.hert


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Glad you're going on with the thread.

In your post (the post before my post) where you wrote you were closing the thread, I was thinking about all the comments on gout, and thus wasn't paying attention when you said you were closing the thread. (I was always a bit of a "dreamer" in school, involved with my own thoughts). In the late 1960s I edited a thin volume titled _Gout and the Gouty_ (I worked half-time at Naylor Publishing Company, San Antonio, Texas, while attending college). So, no disrespect intended towards your intentions. 

Larry


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well I am so glad I have put these two together because Allie was trying to break out of the cage and Mr. Al was cleaning himself and trying to break into the cage so I got disqusted and just opened up the cage and Mr. Al went into the cage and did a complete spin about 6 or 7 times on the nest pad and Allie just looked at him--now they are together sitting on the nest pad close to one another and grooming some as well. Allie seems to like having her husband around but she is just not sure yet because of her drastic change of environment but Al sure is sure and he by the way is much improved and he is actually standing up right on his feet proper now cause the leg swollen is gone and he seems very much out of pain ---his feet of course still are swollen--but he doesn't seem to care at this point for he is up right and not tending to lay down--I look at this and smile...c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

c.hert said:


> Dobato and Charis : I know you two care a lot about Al and of course about me losing him some day but you can right now put your mind at ease because you might disagree with the Vets prescription of medicine over pain management vrs a lesser one that might affect his liver but I have full faith in this very special and talented Avian Vet who has treated birds for over 35 years as well as being a excellent surgeon sometimes it is good to go with a program if you have faith in your vet---I have faith---full faith---and also one needs to have faith in my judgements knowing a good one from a bad one and knowing what diagnosis this is with the effects that Al has been feeling. Mr. Al is very much better today with this medicine. I believe that the vet gave Al this medicine because of its inflamatory effects and trying to get his feet less swollen and it is working if that was the reason. We can't get the uric acid buildup out of the feet (only by surgery--awful affair---too old---its time for him...Kidneys failing...build up of uric acid).. and for now this is the best decision. Sometimes people can carry on something just too much because they really care and are concerned but it helps them adjust their mental pictures to the situation just by trying to share their experiences because they know it worked for them....Thank you for your whole hearted support---I will end this thread now and start a brand new one and I just might call it : Twinkle Toes and Tulip because thats what Mr. Feathers and Mr. Pretty has turned into and when I get the droppings back I will gladly put those two on the male side of the loft and have my house back except of course for our friend Mr. Al here sitting on the radio with a pillow under him looking very much more comfortable....Thanks once again....c.hert---This thread is ended for me........


Well c.hert...even vets are mistaken sometimes. It would be a shame to put poor Al in hospice prematurely if he does indeed have something curable.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

It was a right diagnosis and the hospice is my home and right now Mr. Al is with his wife Allie and they are both very comfortable indeed. The Metacam is being given to try to get the iinflammation down as much as possible so that he can be comfortable and with the other medicine to stop the uric acid from building up in his system we are trying to control it where it is and this will give Al a quality of life and who knows for how long could be one day to many years--we are working on it--as a team---and right now Al is doing just wonderful on the medicine he is actually standing upright and only one leg is the bad one the other has receded so we will take day by day... You people have very much experience with birds and I acknowledge this but then again----I do too from another angle -----Thanks for caring-----c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dobato said:


> If Al is going to be on long term hospice pain meds, you may want to speak to your vet about prescribing butorphanol for Al, (this is an opiate based med, not an NSAID as Metacam is), the dosage would be 3mg/kg twice a day. Your vet may tell you that it is an injectable med, but Dr. Speer makes an oral suspension using the injectable for avians and this is one way he uses it. For high pain management my understanding is that it is much more effective than Metacam, and you don't have the liver issues with it to worry about.
> 
> Did you see the question I asked in my post #20?
> 
> Karyn


Oh Wow...I thought feralpigeon was the only member that went to Dr. Speer.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Who is Dr. Speer Charis??? c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Here's a link to his clinic, which is located in Oakley California.

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Looks like a qualified Avian Vet but what does that have to do with Mr. Al because I live in Colorado...c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dobato mentioned him...that's all. Another member, feralpigeon that doesn't post often any more, thinks very highly of Dr. Speer.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Charis, Dr. Speer is not my regular vet, but was brought in to consult on a bird that was puzzling my regular vet, a board certified avian vet, who, to his credit, recognizes his lack of in-depth knowledge on pigeons. He is not only thought of highly by feralpigeon, but apparently by other avian vets as well, as my vet recommended him and has attended a number of his lectures at avian vet conferences.



> Looks like a qualified Avian Vet but what does that have to do with Mr. Al because I live in Colorado...c.hert


C hert, like your bird Al, my bird was also on Metacam for pain management, Dr Speer recommended the switch to butorphanol. My vet was unfamiliar with the fact that the injectable could be made into a solution for oral use and be effective, Dr. Speer gave dosing amounts and instructions for him on this. When I mentioned the use of butorphanol to you, I also took into consideration that your vet may or may not be familiar with using the injectable to make an oral solution for use at home and I mentioned Dr. Brian Speer by name, so that if your vet isn't, he will know that dosage and use came from a highly regarded avian vet that he may even know.

I also wanted to say that any vet, and I am sure your vet will acknowledge this, is capable of missing something with a sick bird, especially if, and I can attest to this, a vet, even an avian one, does not see pigeons on a regular basis and has not become familiar with all the ins' ans outs' of illnesses that they can routinely come down with. You should have faith, but it does not hurt to ask a few questions once in a while, to make sure nothing has been left out of the equation. One of the great things about this board is cumulatively, we literally have hundreds of years of hands on experience of knowledgeable pigeon people and while not all the time, there are times that these eyes may pick up on something that may have been overlooked by even an experience avian vet.

Wishing Al and Allie continued happiness together,

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Dobato: I surely appreciate that information and this medicine is so very nice to know about and I intend to inquire from my vet the next visit Mr. Al and I have with my Vet and at that time I am bringing my dog in as well for her annual check because I have a friend who is going to drive me to the vet in case the weather is bad--one never knows what the weather will be on the 27th and I might as well get Abby checked out at the same time to get it over with for the year. Abby is about three years old and a herding dog that a state trooper found on a interstate wandering around at the age of about 3 months she is blond in color and very hard at first to train because she is totally deaf and she goes by my hand signals and she is the best dog in the world at this time. She actually herds my pigeons for me sometimes but they want no part of her and fly up high and the wind they make scares Abby and she runs behind me..She is blond in color and has real light brown expressive eyes and I keep her close clip like a racing dog in reality her fur is like a chow doggy. Back to Mr. Al and Allie---she is going to be removed back to the loft today because this is causing too much of a problem for me because they are now fighting over the nesting cage that Al owns and I am actually missing him for not flying into the kitchen to have my morning coffee with as he sits on the radio and he is really being very mean to his wife Allie and I know he knows who she is because of his sweeping display of affection yesterday but today they have been fight all morning over who is going into the cage and sit on the soft cat rug especially on the rim of it--it is bigger enough for both of them but I guess he doesn't see it that way and Allie has a girlfriend in the loft who is missing her---so I guess its been too long apart for them so back she goes and I will have Al all to myself with only one pigeon in my house---thank goodness--I have 6 Diamond Doves that I never wanted in my house but they have become family so thats my bird room....and I am attached to the Doves at this time after many years of tending to them. What I really need is a separate Aviary outside with heat--real heat--boiler kind--extension of my piping maybe for that but as we know everything cost money and it is just not feaseable for me---but I can always dream about it and everybody seems happy and when I get Allie out I will be happier to heck with Al right now--its my sanity at stake as well---she will be happier with her girlfriend out in the female side of the loft....good riddance......I will keep you posted with Mr. Al's next vet visit and I will ask the doctor about the medicine and what he thinks---right now we are more concerned about Mr. Al's kidneys because of the Uric acid buildup with gout and the medicine has helped a whole lot and his droppings now look very normal and the metacam has taken his swollness down and he is actually walking upright for the first time since before his tumor surgery but he does have a limp on that one foot because it is so swollen---but we will handle these things as we figure out whats the best for him because I work with my vet as a team and I have full confidence in him and I actually think he is the best in the nation and I have access to the University if need be----Thank you for your caring and concerns....C.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

MR. AL'S VISIT TO THE UNIVERSITY
Well we are at it again and I made a phone call to Mr. Al's wonderful Vet and asked him to call me back so that we can discuss things and get him a visit at a world famous veterinary hospital for his gout in his foot and to see if the medicine he is on is up to date for this condition and I am waiting for the response today--then I will call up a friend to see if they will drive me a ways to get there and make appointment and get a special # just for Al..and we will be off in the future :"to the country" for a visit and to eat good food and just experience a new day and I told Al this this morning over my coffee....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Mr. Al. the pigeon is doing very well out of pain and standing upright as well as flying and he is limping with the one swollen foot bad not as bad as you would expect--the medicine has helped a whole lot.. I made an appointment at the Vet School for Feb 23 on Tuesday and we will see what the latest is on Gout as well as what they will perscribe or do for our Al..I will keep you posted. This is going to be neat for me too for I will get out of the city on a nice trip North to prettyness and my friend and I will have a real nice breakfast on the road....On The Road Again (that song)...c.hert


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sounds exciting!!

I know we will all be waiting to hear about your trip and diagnosis and treatment, etc.

Wishing all the BEST with Love and Hugs and SCRITCHES especially for Mr. Al!

Shi and the gang


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Love and hugs and scritches is really cute---I like that --Thanks----c.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That sounds great. I can tell you are doing all you can for Al.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

BirdMomForever: I love your name and I will keep the post updated about what the Vetinarian Hospital says and especially I am going to ask the doctor about some medicine that people have suggested in this forum because I am very curious. People come to this Vet Hospital from all over the world and I am so fortunate to be a few hours of driving away from it--my friend will drive me--after I bribed her--and also because she loves me and would not want me to cry....Mr. Al. of course is taking this all in and just knows something is coming up on tuesday and he is doing very well and is comfortable right now...Thanks for your nice comment....c.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Best of luck with the visit and do keep us posted on what the vet says. We all learn from this forum.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I will sure do that and let you all know--thanks c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

It's snowing here in my area today--not too much---and another storm is coming in and I have set up the Vet visit for Tuesday and my girlfriend doesn't drive towards the mountains when it is snowing but we volunteered a man friend with a four wheel drive truck and there just might be three of us taking the trip plus our Mr. Al. oh we had to bribe him too by paying for his breakfast on the way so now I have two breakfast buddies plus Al. It might be okay weatherwise and we will be fine but they say on the news that another storm is coming in and its 22 degrees right now and it will be very cold on Tuesday as well...Can't wait for Spring--tired of cold---. Mr. Al got his medicine the morning and doesn't like the taste but thats life and I told him I will ask the doctor for better tasting stuff if they have it and in the meanwhile he is on the radio watching me cook breakfast and the music this morning rocks--so I guess he's rocking too. c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I was going to put some vaseline on his feet and noticed that he did not eat today and he was sitting in his nest bowl--head held high ---and his good eye was shut----Mr. Al died this afternoon so sorry I had to report this sadness to you all..c.hert


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Oh, no!!!! I am so very sorry!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

We all knew that Al was really in hospice (at home) and the University was just a last chance effort to see if anything was possible but I will tell you this he was out of pain when he passed and thats all that counts and like I told him this very morning-Thats life..Thank you Feefo and everyone else who thinks of Mr. Al on this snowy day. c.hert


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

C.Hert, I am very sorry to hear this news, please accept my sincere condolences for your loss.

Karyn


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

OH NO!! I was certainly _not_ expecting that news!!!

My most heartfelt condolences!! I am so sorry!!

I know AL will always live in your heart and memories...

Sending Conforting Thoughts with Love and Hugs

Shi/Mr. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's very sad news. I'm very sorry.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I did not expect it either Mr. Squeaks and I am still in shock today--expected it---but not so quick and was planning a trip to the University on this Tuesday so that we could see what the very latest was on the care of gout---but the birds kidneys were in bad shape from the uric acid that I guess overcame them but all the swollen went down and Mr. Al was flying with his tumor operated wing and walking up right--looking so so good and then I found him looking wonderful sitting in his nest but he went to birdie land. I feel really bad but your postings have always been cheerful and light and made people feel like they belong no matter how different they are==== I sure do appreciate that and appreciate your honest message of sadness. I will be taking a break for awhile from this pigeon-talk and for now I am going to say good bye...c.hert


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I hope you won't stay away too long c.hert...it will be the baby bird season soon and we will really need as many experienced members as possible to help advice first time rescuers!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm so sorry to hear this and offer my condolences. I have felt that Mr. Al met life without fear and lived it for all it was worth. Would that we all took such an approach!

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Pidgey: a little coaxing to stay on people-talk for awhile would have been nice like Freefo did but I do appreciate your condolence for our Mr. Al.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

c.hert said:


> I did not expect it either Mr. Squeaks and I am still in shock today--expected it---but not so quick and was planning a trip to the University on this Tuesday so that we could see what the very latest was on the care of gout---but the birds kidneys were in bad shape from the uric acid that I guess overcame them but all the swollen went down and Mr. Al was flying with his tumor operated wing and walking up right--looking so so good and then I found him looking wonderful sitting in his nest but he went to birdie land. I feel really bad but your postings have always been cheerful and light and made people feel like they belong no matter how different they are==== I sure do appreciate that and appreciate your honest message of sadness. I will be taking a break for awhile from this pigeon-talk and for *now I am going to say good bye*...c.hert


  I certainly hope this exit will be *temporary!!*

We need the "good ones" and you certainly fall into that category! We have already been rocked by the loss of Maggie and Linda (Feather)! 

SURE HOPE TO SEE YOUR RETURN...*SOON!*

The gang and I are wishing you all the best and please take care...

Love and Hugs
Shi/Mr. Squeaks/Dom/Gimie/WoeBeGone


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

So sorry to hear about Mr. Al. But equally sorry about you leaving PT for awhile. I agree with Feefo and Shi, the experience people on here really need to stick around for the sake of the birds needing help. Spring is coming, and your experience is vital. Come back soon. mindy


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

This is music to my ears and it sure does make me feel a lot better about things and I hope the nice thoughts continue to come than I will feel a lot lot even more better and who knows what I will decide ---I love you all---we are all in this together---and I did not know your Maggie but I have read some of her posts by going in her profile and Oh what a hell of a person she was....c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I know you are broken hearted and Al's passing this was a shock. We all process grief differently and if you need a break to heal, that is understandable. Take what you need to do that. Be good to yourself.
Consider yourself complimented, you do remind me very much of our Maggie and FeeFo combined.
Take care.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am very complimented Charis and thank you and I really did not expect that from you and thank you very much and I.m getting happier every time I get such nice responses from such very very nice people---gaining much needed strength by them..c.hert


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Very sorry to hear about Al's passing, C.hert.

My condolences.

Take care of yourself. 

I appreciate your posts and threads and opinions. The more experience a person has with pigeons in need, the more we need his or her input in times of crisis. Everyone needs a pause or break or vacation on occasion, to re-charge one's batteries and come back to old issues with fresh enthusiasm. 

Even differences of opinion and disagreements on treatment help, since they help one reflect on the many different aspects that may otherwise be overlooked. So, never think your input on this site is unappreciated by others, even though they may often not have time to post and say so.


Larry


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Mr. Larry : I have check out your website too and very interesting and different you are and a lot of people on this pigeon-talk are so very unique from the racing people to the pet owners to the loft pigeon people and the rehabilitation people to the good old plain Janes who just love birdies and what to make them well with practical no how that has work over the years and give their best efforts with this endeavor.Sometimes people who find birds want just a plain and simple no how techique and you can tell with how they respond and other times they what and are able to understand a higher technique to try and these are the varieties of people we need on pigeon-talk but if groups begin to ignore people or push people away and make them feel really stupid and out of the loop things then they get depressed and need a short vacation and the only medicine for them is good thoughts with sympathy about losing their wonderful one eyed pigeon.,and thats what I am doing now trying to get well and so far it is working and I am feeling better and better and your post makes me feel just better and better.c.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

C. hert, I'm so very sorry to hear of Al's passing. I can tell you did all you could for him and kept him as comfortable as possible and I'm sure he appreciated that. Even when we anticipate the loss, it really hurts.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Everybody on this forum has been so very nice and especially you Birdmom4ever with your wise words:"we all learn from this forum" somehow that sounded like something thats very true..Well with each little note of sympathy that comes into this thread to wish me a speedy recovery from my grief I seem to get better and better and better so that in the future I will contribute to this people-talk once again and I wish as well a few racers would come in and wish me a speedy recovery from the shock of my one eye pigeon dropping dead in his nest box and these very meaningful condolences would be very good for me and I would get well so much more quicker and join everyone once again in this forum...Thanks my friend Birdmom4ever....c.hert


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

c.hert said:


> Pidgey: a little coaxing to stay on people-talk for awhile would have been nice like Freefo did but I do appreciate your condolence for our Mr. Al.


Well... I didn't have much time when I wrote that because I had a plane to catch due to an emergency "out in the field". I'm over a thousand miles from home, now, and pretty much sleepless in the middle of the night (rarely sleep well away from home).

I'm not the world's best at expressing grief or helping others with theirs. I think I tend to try to convert such grief into trying harder the next time to help a different bird and I have a very difficult time revisiting a loss. It has helped me through some of them by helping others on here. Pigeon-Talk is good for the soul but we've had a few knock-down dragouts on here, too. We've each been right and we've each been wrong... and we're all human with everything that goes with it, the good and the bad. In this respect, we're kinda' like family here. My advice will always be: show up when you feel like it!

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I'm not the world's best at expressing grief or helping others with theirs. I think I tend to try to convert such grief into trying harder the next time to help a different bird and I have a very difficult time revisiting a loss. It has helped me through some of them by helping others on here.


Words are just words and people can use some really nice ones without meaning them...but when we _scream_ for you Pidgey (which happens a lot) you always respond, wherever you are. That counts for so much more .


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats very true Freefo about Pidgey and right now she is trying to get some imput from other people about a badly hurt pigeon...but this particular thread is not about Pidgey and its about me to see if I can possibly contribute my talents to this forum--different talents from different approach sometimes but nevertheless it would be my time and efforts and I wanted some imput on how the people felt about me before I even get into this because as we know its addicting and I just wanted imput. I could talk about people in this thread including you Feefo who saved a baby pigeon the other day by getting it and sharing a picture of it with us (a beautiful picture) but this is not the point of this thread---this thread is about me and my well being---and in a few days it will end and my decision will be made and shared and right now I am feeling better and better each day because of all the love and hugs that I have received..c.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm glad we could be here for you, c. hert. No one understands a loss like someone who has gone through it themselves and this forum has been a huge comfort to me when I've lost precious pet birds. The rest of the world tends not to understand how much they mean to us, but people here do. We _are_ rather like a family and not perfect, but it's a blessing for like-minded people to get together. I still believe the shared information and support outweigh the downside of people being mean and not getting along. Hang in there, take your time and contribute as you feel up to it. 

-Cathy


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You are a very wise woman Birdmom4ever and I totally agree with you. People become like family and grow and support and help and of course as you know we are not perfect.
This forum has a lot of love in it to offer to one like me and I have made my decision on how I am going to handle it and share with people. I am going to be a by stander for now getting knowledge out of the forum then when someone with love --someone I know has love and wellness of being then maybe I will join in their thread and communicate how I feel about things. I have watched the politics of things and the real hatred people have in side themselves--something they cannot help because we have all been there at one time in our life---these things I do not want in my life---so for now I will be a bystander and gain more knowledge and watch the interplay and really feel sorry for some of the people because in heart that must be very sad if they can't offer a small amount of sympathy to one at that given time needs it and is asking for it..Thank you beautiful people for all your beautiful words---I sure appreciate..C.hert


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

That sounds like a wise course of action. And you are welcome.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Latest update on the death of our Al. He most likely died of heart failure because the gout lined his liver.kidney and most of his heart--looked like scar tissue with the uric acid white and solid and even if I fixed his swollen foot it was really bad and it had reached all these other important organs--we knew it was bad but never thought it had reach his heart like it did by wrapping around it like white concrete and corroding it with the other two organs and it lined his tract as well...This is not canker but the results of gout and uric acid--unbelieveable what this stuff can do...Just thought I would update you so you would not be in the dark about why he died so unexpectly after having a real nice morning with him...c.hert
heart like it did as well as his liver and it was very corroding into these organs--especially his heart...c.hert


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## kbbigman (Jun 4, 2009)

C.Hert I'm sorry I've been away for a little while due to my shifts and have just caught up with your story about Mr Al, I'm so sorry, you had both battled so hard with his illnesses, reading about his passing was done thru very watery eyes if you get my meaning. 
Please keep writing on here, I think every member contributes in different ways, as we all come to the site from different area's, backgrounds, life experiences and birds. Hopefully by visiting and making your contributions you will gain from the site as much as we gain from you. Michelle.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

At this time that was much appreciated --Thank You....c.hert


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Thanks for your update, C.hert. Never knew gout could affect the heart like that. Thought it mostly made our joints stiff and swollen.

I should have suspected that gout could be fatal. The small book I edited in the 1960s, _Gout and the Gouty_, had a chapter listing a number of famous people who suffered from gout, among them Benjamin Franklin. There was also a mid-eastern Pasha or sultan with a large harem, who said one of the benefits of gout was that it prevented one from spending his last hours in the company of a woman. 

Again, my condolences on Al. It was nice that he had a peaceful time before his passing. Even if we cannot heal, we can at least show that we care. A little bit can mean a lot.

Larry


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