# Baby Dove/Pigeon Found...



## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I found this little guy yesterday. (Hope the attachment works!) Not sure if it's a dove or a pigeon. I've got him on a Snugglesafe in a hamster cage and I'm feeding him Ready Brek every few hours. 

I've been through a few of the threads on here about what to do, but I've got a couple of questions.

Should I keep him covered up and in the dark between feeds? Is there anything else I should be doing for him? Is he a dove or a pigeon?

Thanks in advance!

H


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi CH, 


Looks like a delightful little Wood Pigeon..!


Make sure he is being kept warm enough...as in just a little warmer than the underside of your Wrist is.

Once endothermic, he will be a little 'furnace' all by himself, and you will not need to provide supplimental warmth then.


Good luck!



Phil
Lv


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for the quick reply!

Here's the little guy today enjoying his Ready Brek...

Do you think he'll be OK if I leave him to go to work tomorrow? How long can they go without eating? I guess I could take him to work with me, (not sure what the boss would think of that!) or could transporting him be more stressful?

H


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi CH,



Guide his little ( well, HUGE ) Beak with soft, slightly moist finger tip pads, into a small Tea Cup of "tepid" water after feeding, and again mid way between meals.

water ( or formula ) needs to be close to Body Temperature.

Formula can be warmed in-a-Cup, in a Saucepan of hot Water.

Never 'microwave' it.

Formula should be fairly 'soupy'...about like melted Ice Cream on a Hot Day.



Babys need plenty of hydration for their systems to be working right.

If you can keep him 'warm' while at work, it would allow a sensible feeding schedule to be observed.

Small meals, every hour or so, would be the usual recourse for one this age.


I would expect more Wing flapping at chow time.


If he is a little subdued, it could be mild dehydration.


Can you post some good close up images of his poops/urates?



Phil
lv


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

I let him stick his beak in some warm water and he loved it! I thought he'd be getting enough water in his porridge but he looked really thirsty. 

Here's a pic of his droppings...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi CH,


Do you have one of those little counter-top or rather hand held electric high speed Coffee Grinders? They are like tiny 'Blenders', having revolveing knives and a little clear Cap?


If so, get some White Safflower seeds, and, some Goji Berries ( any Health Food Store or most Asian Markets), and put in equal amounts, and grind into a sort of powder...the powder will be moist and cling to itself like a big lump, but, it will suspend easily and dissolve when mixed with Water, or added to his regular Formula.


He will like the flavor, and these will greatly aid in adding valuable nutrition and antioxidants supporting his system in general.


Keep posting daily poop images and portraint images.


He sure is cute!


Anyway, Babys pretty well always need to drink between meals, and for their little Crops to be 'slushy' that way.


If his Crop seems on the firm or soft puddy-like side of contents, then, definitely, it is time-for-a-drink.


Phil
Lv


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

He looks as if his eyes are only just opening, about the 4-5 day old mark. Too young to start experimenting with Goji berries and other exotic berries that would not be part of the wood pigeon's diet. What I would do is get some chick crumbs, soak them in hot (not boiling) water for half an hour, liquidise them. The mixture can be kept in the fridge for a couple of days, a portion heated up for each meal. Chick crumbs are excellent for hand raising woodies.

*This page *on wood pigeons might be of interest to you.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi feefo,




Well, 'Ready Brek' is not something Wood Pigeons in Nature would feed their Babys, either, for that matter..!


Lol...


We have to devise formulas or foods which will answer the nutritional needs of the Baby, according to their age and condition or other deferences.


If a formula may be nutritious and easily digested for a Baby, what difference does it make if the ingredients might be other than locally mundane?



Hence, my suggestion to augment with the latter, ground easily in any little electric Coffee Grinder having the clear Cap and whirling 'Blades' inside.


I would have thought more like 7 days old, by the size of him relative to her Hand.


It really would not matter what Species of delictable 'Berry' one feeds ( or makes into powder with appropriate Seed kinds, and mixes with formula ) for a Columbiform Baby old enough for ( what would have been ) the Crop Milk phase to be ending or drawning to a close, so long as the Berry type is non toxic, pleasant and edible, recognised as safe, and is nutritious and benificient.

Ditto with any species of Wholesome raw, unprocessed Grains/Seeds.


Fresh 'meals' made from these will have greatly more and better and wider Nutrition than any cooked by a factory, extruded, heavily processed, extruded from paste, deracinated, Cereal product.


It is not as if one is trying to teach the Baby to recognise and forrage for that specific kind of Berry, visually, in this context.


Fresh or dried Goji Berries, Elderberries, Dark Cherries, Lingonberryies, or any other palitable small Fruiting Body or Berry which people traditionally enjoy, is fine for any of them, and for that matter, can be very benificial to many diverse species of Bird Babys for their Calcium absorption, and all round Immune System Health and energy.


Phil
Lv


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think we should as far as possible just keep it simple at the initial stage. Substitute foods like readybrek, kaytee exact, chick crumbs, and other 'formulas' are what's generally recommended on PT and though in themselves they may not perfectly reproduce what a bird would get 'in nature', they do work. 

We need to consider that different species develop at different rates, so the age at which crop milk would be mixed with whatever constituents the adults can find will vary.

Different rescuers may have different levels of experience, and we are often not aware of what people do or don't already know, so I'd think better to err on the side of caution and keep it straightforward to start with.

Of course, at the stage where we start to encourage a bird to feed itself, from suitable grains and seeds, but we supplement their efforts with hand feedings, a variety of items could be considered according to the species we are dealing with.

JMO.



John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Well, 'Ready Brek' is not something Wood Pigeons in Nature would feed their Babys, either, for that matter..!


I appreciate the support that you give new rescuers Phil, and I know that you have a lot of experience of handraising baby ferals and mourning doves, but you have not had the opportunity of hand raising a woodie or becoming familiar with their dietary habits and their dietary problems. They are not scavengers like feral pigeons and as babies being hand raised they can be delicate and inclined to develop crop stasis. 

This is why the first few days of life are not a time to risk experimenting with different foods: The foods that I recommend are those that are readily available in the UK and which have been used successfully to raise many woodies by experienced wood pigeon rehabbers, including our moderator Nooti. The last thing the rescuer needs is to have the baby develop crop stasis and then have to try to resolve it. Let's keep to what we know and that way the chances of encountering problems are consideralbly reduced.



> I would have thought more like 7 days old, by the size of him relative to her Hand.


Because woodies are larger than feral pigeons and develop faster (they leave the nest at 21 - 25 days) this is an unreliable method of determining the age of a squab unless you have experience of hand raising them. 

CaptainHelen, would it be possible to weigh him daily and let us know how he is progressing.

If you run into trouble, here are three rescue centres in North Yorkshire than might help:

Selby Animal Sanctuary,
Scalm Lane,
Hambleton, 
Selby. O8 9HZ
Tele: (01757) 228216

Yorkshire Swan & Wildlife Rescue Hospital
Registered Charity 1113771
Stearsby Farm
Brandsby
Near York
North Yorkshire
YO61 4SH

Tel: 07763424892

Euthanase unreleasable birds.

Wildlife Haven
Thirsk
North Yorkshire
01845 526567

Euthanse unreleasable animals


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for all your help. I've never hand reared a bird before so I know very little!

This morning he weighed 93g. I've brought him to work with me so I can keep feeding him during the day. He's hidden in a store room!

I contacted the Wildlife Haven in Thirsk when I first found him. They advised me to feed him Ready Brek. They also suggested Kaytee, but I can only find it in large quantities, does anyone know where I can buy a small bag?

I guessed he was around 8 days old from the photos I've seen on the internet. I don't know how long I can get away with hiding him at work! Someone's going to notice soon!

H


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Believe me, chick starter crumbs are better than Kaytee, although they take longer to prepare.

*Here *are instructions for caring for a baby pigeon. The quantities indicated are for feral pigeons, so for a woodie I would feed when the crop is flat and empty...that shouldn't be anywhere near as often as once an hour! 

I contacted *Wing and a Prayer on Facebook *and Dianne, who always has heaps of baby woodies at this time of year and has far more hands-on experience than I have, says:

*"I would say about 10 days. 12-15 mls per feed, every 3-4 hours. crop needs checking to see how quickly it is digesting to fine tune the amount and timing "* 

Ali Blackbird, another rehabber (Bird Rescue, Totnes) added: *"I'd agree with that, although he might be able to take 20mls  I've got a Collared Dove who is about 10 days old and he's taking 15 mls each time and even then his crop doesn't feel full, am leaving 5 hours between feeds."*


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks Feefo, that makes sense. I last fed him 3 hours ago and his crop still feels full. I would guess he's been eating around 15-20mls each time, but it's hard to tell exactly. A lot of it ends up down his front and on my hands! 

H


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The advantage of the way that you are feeding is that he takes as much as he needs rather than being forced to accept a fixed amount. But wait for the crop to empty, that way if there are any problems you will be able to identify them early .


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Today he's 99g. Feeding about 15-20ml every 5 hours seems to work for him. I've bought a baby bottle to feed him, much easier than the syringe. Here he is last night. He's just starting to grow feathers around his bottom...


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## Woodywood (Jul 29, 2010)

Ready brek has been fine for my little one - I did order some Kaytee but it took 2 bloody weeks for it to arrive - really bad service from some shop - ignored emails etc. I know now that if I ever get my African Grey I wont use them for anything.

99g - thats massive compared to my C Dove lol  We've just hit the 72g mark at 3 weeks + 3 days estimate when we found him.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Some of us have found that adults that can't feed themselves will vomit up Kaytee but keep the Ready Brek down. If you read the ingredients on the Ready Brek packet they include wholegrain rolled oats, wholegrain oatflower, calcium and riboflavin as well as other vitamins. The other advantages of courseare that it is readily available from corner shops as well as 24 hour supermarkets, easy to prepare and inexpensive.


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi Woodywood! I've been following your thread with interest, it's been very helpful to know what to expect! Love the name Woody, I've no idea what I should call my little guy.

He does seem enormous for such a young baby. 

It was handy being able to get Ready Brek from the corner shop at 9pm on a Saturday! I think I'll stick with it for a while, it's easy to prepare without other people in the office noticing!

Should I still be keeping him in a quiet dark place between meals? 

H


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Should I still be keeping him in a quiet dark place between meals?


That isn't necessary, but he would benefit from some natural sunlight.

We called our first woodie Edwood Woodwood, then began calling them names that ended in wood like Littlewood, Dagwood and Norwood, but we have settled on Forest for the latest rescue.


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## Woodywood (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes Woody for a Collared Dove - he's gonna have a complex lol.
Dont want to rename him as will get attached even more for the big day when he leaves - though was wondering whether to keep him in our chicken coup - is that cruel?
Just want him to have a nice easy life after the bad start he had!


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Here's a pic from day 4 and one from day 5. His feathers are really starting to grow! 

Would it be OK to put him in the same room as my aviary? I've got two budgies and a cockatiel in there. The room is nice and bright and I thought it might be good for him to hear others birds chirping. Would there be any risk to any of the birds just being in the same room?

H


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi H, 



In Nature, the Babys/Youngsters sleep, enthusiastically get fed and watered, poop, and sleep, preen, sleep...poop...get fed and watered...and, remain in the Nest or close to it, until first venturing to fly.


Other than the transient interactions with the parent or stand-in-parent, they do not need any particular stimulations from the environment...they are sort in their own World, as it were, during these stages, developing, growing, day-dreaming.


The images do not seem to show any action or vigor or assertive dynamic of Wings Flapping and Standing tall, pushing for all he's worth.

Is he wan or lethargic?


I would expect a lot more dynamic/energetic paralinguistics of enthusiasm for chow-times.



Phil
Lv


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

OK, that makes sense. I just worry he'll get bored.

He's very energetic and enthusiastic about his food. For each of the pictures I've posted there were another 50 I deleted! He's almost impossible to photo as he never stays still! He's always flapping his wings and he's got a good grip in his feet.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lol...


Oh good...


Just as it should be then!


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Little Woodbine (as he's been named) had a bad day yesterday. He developed diarrhea and wasn't his usual chirpy self. He was hunched in a corner and didn't want me to touch him. On the advice of the Wildlife Haven I've given him Baytril, as they assume it's some kind of infection. 

I haven't brought him to work with me today as I think the cat carrier was stressing him out. He seems a lot happier in his cage at home where he can get some daylight and move around. 

Should I keep the Baytril up for 10 days? Is there anything else I can do for him? He's a lot more chirpy today but still has the diarrhea.

As he's around two weeks old now should I start thinking about introducing seeds into his diet?

H


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You can start him on seed now, you could try defrosted peas as well.

I love the name Woodbine! It is perfect.


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for replying so quickly! 

Should I add the seeds to his Ready Brek for now? Would budgie seed and sunflower seed be OK? Does he need grit if he's having seeds?

Is he old enough for a bowl of water in his cage?

Sorry I've got so many questions! This is my first baby pigeon!

H


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Images of the poops?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Adding them to the Ready Brek will be fine. Sunflower hearts would be better than whole seed. Scatter some around him as well so that he starts pecking at them out of curiosity.

If you put water in a small dish, like the ones they use for hamsters that will be fine.

Having a lot of questions is good!


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

I'll get some pics of his poops tonight.

I added some budgie seeds to his Ready Brek but they've come out the other end undigested! I'll try some sunflower hearts tonight. Do the peas/sweetcorn have to be from frozen or would tinned be OK?

I've got some spare hamster bowls, so I've given him one with water and one with some extra Ready brek. I've not seen him use them yet though.

I guess he's about two and a half weeks old now, should he be eating by himself yet? He doesn't seem to be eating as much now as he used to. I'm a bit worried that he's only 147g. His crop doesn't get as full as it used to. Is that because he knows when to stop now or should I be worried?!

H


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Here's a recent pic of Woodbine showing off his new wings!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Frozen peas and corn are best as they don't have any additives.

I am worried. IMO he is underweight and he shouldn't be passing undigested seeds. (Edited...if he is 14 days old, probably not that much underweight...but he should be gaining). Would it be possible to get him to an avian vet who could examine him? Not all of them will treat wild birds, so check first. From *this site*:

_Matt Brash is the TV Vet 

Matt Brash 

The zoo vet.

Has a excellent reputation

Stamford Bridge

2, Buttercrambe Road

Stamford Bridge

York YO41 1AN Phone: 01759 371066

Email: Stamford Bridge

Pocklington

88, Kilnwick Road Pocklington

York YO42 2JZ Phone: 01759 307500

Email: Pocklington

Strensall

38, The Village Strensall

York YO32 5XR Phone: 01904 490055

Email: Strensall_


I would either hand feed him peas on top of his normal food, but start with one, see how that affects his digestion. It might help if you could find some chick rearing crumbs, soak them in hot, not boiling, water for half an hour and feed them from his bottle.

If he still has diarrhea, try to replace any lost fluids, make up some rehydration solution (1 pint warm water, 1/2 tablespoon honey, 1/2 teaspoon salt). Dip his beak in it to encourage him to drink, keep offering it warm.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

His Feathers appear to have a somewhat 'whispy' aspect.

This might signal some nutritional deficiency.


Infection in the lower Crop, or Proventriculous, can sometimes migrate to effect the Gizzard ( thus preventing effecient mastication of Seeds).


Images of the poops?


As nutritional suppliments, when earlier suggested, were assertively rejected to favor a diet of only 'Redi Brek', I hesitate to invite further rebuff by suggesting that a proper diet which represents a good well rounded nutritional array, from the beginning, is never a bad idea, especially if one wishes for the Baby/Youngster to devdelop properly and be healthy.


Redi Brek is roughly as good as 'Bread'...which is far short of what a Bird needs.


Frozen peas and Corn represent nothing more than a wan convenience for a care giver, and have very little nutritional value for the Bird.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

H, I apologise for Phil's post. You have 100% more experience of hand raising wood pigeons than he has and are doing an excellent job.

Phil, I try to be tolerant because I know that you rescue many birds in the US, but sometimes you go too far.

You really need to know *something* about a bird, its appearance, its diet, before accusing all the wildlife hospitals in the UK that have the knowledge and experience that you lack of being wrong. 

Apart from the fact that you have never seen, rescued or hand raised a baby wood pigeon you are making it quite clear that you haven't done any reading about them either. It wouldn't matter if the life of a bird was not at stake...but it is. 

Have a read *here* about the wood pigeon's diet. That will be a good start.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Most of its diet is vegetable, taken from open fields or gardens and lawns; young shoots and seedlings are favoured, and it will take grain, as well as certain fruits and berries.



From -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Wood_Pigeon


Your "Link" had nothing whatever for information about diet.



All I have ever suggested, is to feed a well rounded Diet, containing Natural wholesome ingredients, ideally, a diet which will include elements and or analogues of what their Natural Diet would have been.



It is not necessary for me to be raising Wood Pigeons, to appreciate that their diet should be wholesome, Natural, and deferential to them.



It is merely common sense.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Your "Link" had *nothing whatever *for information about diet.


You didn't read it very thoroughly then then did you? It is only one page. This is the information about diet included on that particular page:

*Baby wood pigeons are fed with "crop milk" ( this is nothing like dairy milk, it is consists of high protein "milk" cells that develop on the crop wall and are shed into the crop when feeding is due ) for the first three days of their life.

After three days the main food of the nestling wood pigeon is whatever their parents eat with ripe cereal grain, fed from the parent's crop, being the most common and the most nutritious. 

Wood pigeons have a varied diet with their food choice varying according to seasonal availability. In captivity the enjoy sunflower hearts, lettuce, rocket , chard and water cress, peanuts, mixed corn and pigeon mixes.

In the wild their foods include tree buds, clover, weed leaves, cultivated mustard, peas at all stages of growth, ripe and partly ripe cereal grains, beechnuts, acorns, hawthorne and elderberries. In summer they will sometimes eat small snails and woodlice (these can be vectors for parasites so should not be fed to captive birds) .*

Information obtained from The Wood Pigeon by K Murton.



> All I have ever suggested, is to feed a well rounded Diet, containing Natural wholesome ingredients, ideally, a diet which will include elements and or analogues of what their Natural Diet would have been.


No Phil, for some reason you chose to sneer at the food stuffs, including corn and peas, that are recommended by wildlife hospitals and other people who have hands on experience of sucessfully raising wood pigeons .


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I have not sneered at anything.


I have advocated an intentionally elected diet, which defers to the Species, which would be composed of, or at least include raw, wholesome, Natural ingredients or analogues, found in the Diet of the Species when Wild.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> I have not sneered at anything
> ............................................





pdpbison said:


> Redi Brek is roughly as good as 'Bread'...which is far short of what a Bird needs.
> 
> Frozen peas and Corn represent nothing more than a wan convenience for a care giver, and have very little nutritional value for the Bird.


Just for info:

100g of wholemeal bread:

Calories 220.0kcal, Carbohydrate 38.0g, Protein 10.5g, Fat 2.9g, Fibre 6.3g

100g of Ready Brek

Calories 356, Carbohydrate 58.8g, Protein 11.6g, Fat 8.3g, Fibre 8.9g


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

I've got some chick rearing crumbs and some mixed corn. I'll give them a try tonight.

Would a vet do anything other than prescribe Baytril? He's been on 0.2ml a day since Monday.

I tried him on defrosted peas and corn last night. I know you said just to try one, but he seemed to like them, so I gave him quite a few. He'd only managed about 20ml of Ready Brek so I thought it was better that he ate something he liked. It did turn his poop slightly green though!

He was pecking at the peas like he wanted to eat by himself but couldn't work out how to get them into his mouth!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Peas have that effect on unweaned woodies, they react as if you are not feeding them fast enough.

Make certain that the chick crumbs are well soaked!

A vet could test the poops for parasites, but apart from that whenever I take a sick pigeon to an avian vet the first approach is to try Baytril for a week.


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Day 19 and Woodbine is now 216g. He seems to be putting on around 20g a day, up from about 10g a day. He loves his chick crumbs and peas! Last night he started eating peas by himself! He's not keen on sweetcorn though. 

I guess he's around 3 and a half weeks old now, does it sound like he's back on track? His poops seem much healthier now. He's had Baytril for 10 days, should I stop now? 

He looked like he wanted to fly this morning. Should he be flying yet by his age? 

H


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## Woodywood (Jul 29, 2010)

Helen he looks great! Woody used to do that with his wings when syringe fed - I miss that contact lol!


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi everyone!

Yesterday was day 45 and Woodbine's last day with me. He's flown the nest! He's gone to live at the Yorkshire Coast Wildlife Rescue where he'll be kept in an aviary for two weeks before being released into a beautiful and safe environment. 

Thanks for all your help everyone, I couldn't have done it without you! I'm very sad to see him go and miss him lots, but I couldn't have hoped for a happier ending. 

Here's a recent pic of him all grown up!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is wonderful news, thank you for updating us! You did a wonderful job with Woodbine! Do you know if YCWR take feral pigeons as well?

Cynthia


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## Ede-bird (Jul 7, 2010)

Well done!


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## Woodywood (Jul 29, 2010)

Fantastic outcome


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## CaptainHelen (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone!

They didn't mention feral pigeons, but from their enthusiasm when they met Woodbine I can't imagine them turning away any type of pigeon! 

H


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