# A theory about how pigeons get hurt feet



## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

I'm noticing more pigeons that are like my Brokenfoot. Their foot is held up and they can't seem to lower it down because it hurts too much or something is broken. I'm beginning to think that these birds are being attacked by predators and that they somehow escape but with hurt feet. I've noticed that since I've seen gulls grab the pigeons here and they escape that I see more pigeons with hurt feet. Maybe when the predators grab them in their beaks, it crushes their feet and does some major damage to them.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Garye,


Well, I see the occasional ( at any given time, at least one in every fifty Pigeons or so ) this also here, and there is not much for preditors as such but for the domestic Cats and Dogs in people's yards.

My own guess is these held-up-leg Pigeons when otherwise feral and healthy looking, had been scared by something at night, took off in the darkness, and miscalculated their landing in some way and strained their hip, thigh or leg in some way.

Sometimes gunshots or a car wreck or a news or hospital helicopter can scare roosting groups who are on some high roof or signboard or whevever, so large numbers of the Pigeons are circleing in the almost darkness, and sooner or later, they will land as they may.

It is rarely the feet as such which are the reason for a leg held 'up'. Usually it is something in the hip or thigh area, as far as I know, or, something sometimes effecting the nerves.

Even the worst 'string feet' still do their best to hobble, and do not tend to hold the foot 'up'.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Garye,

Don't know about that, but I think it might be difficult for the gulls to get so many of them by the feet/beak method. I did find out over the past year about a product that is like a glue that people put on their roofs to prevent rousting.
It will cause the foot to adhere and when the pigeons try to break free they will lose one or more toes. Also, as string injuries around toes remain and tighten, the toe will eventually drop off. Most of the gull attacks I've heard of from different people, involve the gull actually killing and eating the pij. And I don't think this is as common w/the gull as let's say a hawk.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Garye, FP.

Fp, that is a good point about the glue. I believe its called "goop" and its put out at a lot of shopping centers to try to keep pigeons from nesting. Most of the time a pigeon can pull loose but I guess they can lose toes because it is strong stuff. 

I'm attaching 2 pictures to show what this "goop" can do to a small finch. It is really bad, bad stuff for the smaller birds. Fortunately, this little guy survived, as did its sibling, both caught up in this when babies.

Maggie


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Shucks, I had to delete some of my pictures before I could do both so here goes the other one. But, at least I did learn how to get rid of some of them.

Maggie


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Trying again. Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Maggie,

The first is a little blurry but the second one is a crisp revealing pic. Poor baby. It looks like there is something going on around the neck area, is that from Goop also?? 

I have never witnessed a pigeon trapped this way, but a fellow I worked w/who seemed pretty neutral towards them, told me about it. Said he'd seen it. Then, my neighbor who feeds the neighborhood's animals, had her sister visiting who hates pigeons and regularly has the stuff put on her roof so that they won't roust. The sis also claimed that the pigeons will get caught in it and loose their toes trying to get free. I didn't know the shopping centers used it,
but then I imagine there are alot of instances like this that we don't know 'cause the users of these products know it would be controversial.

Maggie, did you nurse these two finches back to health in your "hospital"??

fp


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

Well you guys may be right about the glue stuff. Only that I see more pigeons around the shopping center now so if there's glue up there, they must be glutons for punishment. But anything's possible.

I say predators because I was able to get two pigeons to free themselves from gulls and the gulls had clamped their beaks around their bodies. It could also do damage to their legs and hips. But who knows? It was only a theory of mine.

Saw another cute pigeon yesterday - young - with its leg up. 

Maybe they need hip replacement surgeries like humans.


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## dnrslucky1 (Oct 13, 2005)

Maggie,

That is the most horrible thing to do to a poor bird! The worst part is, it is humans the so called higher species doing this kind of thing! That just shows me how lazy and inhumane some can be! I always believed we were to take care of and protect the animals, birds and fish. Then we could kill only for food as needed.

If I ever see that glue used on anyones roof believe me I will be pi$$ed off and will not hold my tongue!

Sorry, but that is just so very wrong!

Denise


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Garye, first off, I want to apologize to you for kinda getting off your thread to a certain extent. Sometimes, something triggers my memory and if I don't put it down I will probably forget it. I just try to put in things that I've experienced that may help someone else. I do know that pigeons have to pull very hard to get unstuck from this stuff.

I'll finish up with this little guy - Tillie. We got a call about 8 years ago from the owner of a jewelry store in a small shopping center. She said there was a baby bird on the pavement in front of her store that was greasy and could barely move. I took him to the rehabber (the best in NC!) who had trained us because I had never dealt with this before. She told me what to do but kept that one. She was able to release that one later in the summer. The next day the same lady called and said another baby was on the pavement, in worse shape than the other one. I picked him up and couldn't believe what I saw. His entire body, including his ears and eyes were covered in gobs of this stuff. I don't know how he managed to pull free. He couldn't see and was in shock. The second picture is how he looked.

I decided to try to care for him so first of all I put him on a heating pad and let him rest about an hour. Then I wiped as much of this crap off as I could.
I decided to wait until the next day to bathe him because he was so traumatized so I got as much fluid in him as I could and syringe fed him the LeFevbre Passserine Diet formula and just kept him warm. They are so wet with this that their body is cold to the touch. The next day I used Dawn dishwashing liquid in water as warm as possible without hurting him and bathed and rinsed him well. He was totally stressed out, as was I, and seemed semi-conscious. I put him back in his bed which I had warmed up more than usual, covered him up and knelt and said a prayer. I left him and went back about 20-30 minutes later and he was standing on the side of his bed chirping at me. I bathed him again the next day with less trauma for both of us and after he dried off rubbed him down with chinchilla dust. I only bathed him the two times but used the dust several times.

I took him to the vet because his breathing was not improving and she said the stuff had probably affected his lungs but otherwise he was doing well under the circumstances. The 1st picture shows him after a few days. He lost all the feathers on his head, neck, chest, legs, belly and some off his back. It took nearly five months for the feathers to come back normally. The odd thing is that house finches have the red markings but his feathers came back yellow. The vet said it was probably the kind of seed we fed him.

The real key to caring for birds that get caught in goop or even grease is to keep them warm. In the 2nd picture you can see how wet his feathers were.

He recovered nicely and was releasable after the next spring. 

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Garye and Maggie, et al,

I'm sorry too, Garye, didn't mean to hijack your thread w/the goop thing. Just a few comments to Maggie then back at ya on your ferals!

Maggie, I haven't heard of dusting w/chinchilla dust. What is that and what does it do? Where do you get it from? Anyway, thanks for telling us your story about the two rescues, and bless you and your rehabber for helping them back to good health. Funny how some humans think "nature's inhabitants" to be so dangerous, if only they could speak our language, the stories they would tell--on us that is.

Garye, I'm no expert when it comes to seagulls, and I know the pigeons are very intelligent but they are also instinctual beings as well. I've seen them return to unsafe places that they've been rousted from at least once to nest again. Anyway, I would say keep a close eye on your buddies and see if it really is the gulls. I've watched them live side by side on the rooftop terrain of the city with no real
problem, and then the out of the blue attacks. I have no idea what spurs the seagulls to do it. Is it only hunger? Just don't know. I'm interested in hearing though, your observations on the issue.

Best,

fp


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

To be frank, FP, even though you may all think I'm crazy but I'm beginning to believe the gulls are jealous when I feed the pigeons. They know I only bring food for pigeons because they don't eat what I give out. I have noticed that as long as I give gulls something to eat, no matter how small the amount is, they leave the pigeons alone as if to acknowledge that they have my attention too. I think they are jealous and I know that sounds crazy but they act like they are. 

They know later on in the day - every day - there are two little old ladies around here who bring plenty of food for all the birds - something they all like, yet if I bring only food for pigeons, they attack the pigeons. If I bring something also for gulls, no matter how little the amount is, they leave the pigeons alone.

If that doesn't sound like jealousy, I don't know what does. I guess all animals are like humans in a way. They want to be loved too. So if it's a small price to pay, I'll feed the gulls too and they can feel wanted too.

Even the crows will act like the gulls and attack the pigeons but as soon as I give them something, no matter how small the amount is, they leave the pigeons alone. Again, I think in a way it's jealousy.

But no, I have not seen any evidences of glue on these birds. It may be what someone else also said, they may have been spooked suddenly and hurt themselves when taken off suddenly, or it may be what I said, they were hurt by gulls and also crows.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Garye,

No, I don't think you're crazy, and you're entitled to your opinion about you're own observations  . I would probably call it territorialism, but jealousy works just fine.

I don't know how they would injure themselves so consistently when taking off unless precariously perched on something dangerous to begin with, but again,
opinions differ.

Best,

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Garye, 

That is VERY nice and kind of you to feed the gulls & crows as well as the pigeons I'm sure all 3 species appreciate your hand outs tremendously. I'm glad it's solved your problem as well in helping the pigeons be left alone. I know how it embarrasses you too, the gulls calling and drawing attention to yourself but don't worry about what other people think

I'm a bit surprised that the crows will approach you so closely to get a handout. The crows around here will not come close to humans. When I've fed the gulls before, the crows will alight nearby and watch from atop a high light poll or something but they won't come down until I leave. Usually by then the gulls have cleaned up all the morsels


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

Oh those crows DO come down, trust me. They're right out there with the pigeons, they're so bold. For now my method works. Teritroralism or jealousy - whatever it is - they want something too. If it keeps them away from Garye and her friends, then that's all that matters.

I don't know why they have injured feet but I have noticed one thing: it's almost always their right foot that's injured. So I don't know what's going on but I haven't seen any glue on them. I'd say I've seen about 3 or 4 of them around here with an injured foot - all the right foot. My flock is generally 30 to 40 pigeons.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Garye, 

Here's my theory on what is happening with the gull/crow/pigeon dynamics and how they are reacting to the food.

When you were only giving seed to the pigeons, the gulls and/or crows would swoop in because they saw the pigeons eating and figured that there was a meal to be had. They likely figured that they would be able to bully their way in and take over. When they found out that it was only seed you were offering, they turned up their nose at that because it's not their kind of diet. However, they probably thought if they stayed around long enough, you'd dish out something they would like. In the meantime, they took the opportunity to get pushy and rough with the pigeons to eliminate the possible competition. 

NOW, when you started to feed the crows/gulls something they like as well as seed for the pigeons, the gulls were distracted, they knew that you had food that they like and eat. At this time there is no point in them chasing around the pigeons to get them to leave because their eyes are focussed on the next scrap you will throw out for them to eat

When I feed the gulls, their eyes never leave my hands, they anticipate the next scrap being thrown to them, where it will land and how fast each can get to it 

So, I think this is what is happening now in your birdie group. The gulls/crows are now so focussed on you and when the next tidbit is coming their way, that they can't be bothered chasing the pigeons

All around, it's great that it's working for you and ensuring Garye's safety to eat unbothered by the larger, bullying birds.


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

Well, Brad, I figured as much. As I said before, they didn't like pigeon food so they would take it out on the pigeons. And it's the only reason why I feed the crows and gulls, to keep them away from the pigeons.

What I do is feed the pigeons first. Then I quickly move to another spot and feed the crows and gulls keeping them separate from one another. They are not focusing on me throwing scraps one at a time because I don't give out scraps one at a time. I don't have enough time in the morning to do this. I just give each group their pile of food keeping them separate and then I have to leave for work. I stay around as long as I can to make sure the pigeons don't get attacked. For now, it's working.

But this of course, does not explain why the pigeons are getting their feet hurt - especially on the right side. I still think it's partially from the gulls and crows bullying them from time to time.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

*A little off the subject*

Maggie,

House finches do come in a "yellow" or "orange" color phase. It's genetic and has nothing to do with the bird's diet.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

JGregg, thanks for the info. I see only the red and didn't know they were yellow also. Maggie


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


My feral flock here has about 85 members these days, and I counted three holding up a leg.

I had been trying to work out a percentage guess, and I was thinking about one in thirty, then seeing this, seemed to affirm the rough guess of how many at any given moment, show a held-up leg.

Far as I know, in the feral Pigeons, these held-up legs return to normal after some weeks, and, this was so also in the ones I have had inside here who got released.

My own appreciation of this is to attribute it to strain, sprain of muscles, or a possible fine or green fracture of the thigh or upper leg, occasioned by a hard landing.

When Pigeons are freightened from their outdoor night roosts, here, usually on building tops or other high places, if there is not much moonlight to see by, I would expect their landings can be hard for them to calculate as well as they might have otherwise.

This may also be the reason I sometimes see Wing injuries that suggest the Bird flew into something, a wire possibly, like a power line or something, hitting it with a Wing. and either breaking the wing or lacerating and spraining it.

I do not expect that their chances of not-seeing a wire in the daytime are anything like their not seeing one at night or on a night when there is little or no moonlight.

News Helicpters, Police Helicopters, Hospital emergency Helicopters, the occasional explosion of a large electrical transformer in an alley or wherever, car wreck, gunshots, fireworks displays and "Booms" or who knows what else, reliably freighten roosting Pigeons into taking off and circleing up and around for a little while, even in almost total darkness, to then dangerously attempt to land as they may, either in the same place they had been roosting, or someplace else, and, this...is my guess, as to why I see these kinds of injuries.

It is not as if I have seen these kinds of injurys predominate in only the later juvenile Birds, but I see them in what I take to be large, mature, full-bodied older ones also, so I do not think it is a matter of their experience in landing or flying per-se, but rather the circumstances of too little light to see by to land accurately according to the depth perception possible under those conditions...or the difficulty of seeing power lines or other high wires in too low of ambient light.

I (thank goodness) rarely see what I take to be broken legs, and these, if I can, I will catch for their recovery to have the advantage of indoor convelescence-ministerings and it's protections and amenities, here in my little home.

I do see occasional missing toes on otherwise appearently unscared, healthy looking feet, and I have no idea how a Toe or Toes may have been lost.

One of the feral Pigeons here has the middle Toe on each Foot missing with but a tiny nub the same tiny length remaining for each. All their other Toes are fine.

How could 'this' happen? I have no idea, unless perched on something where those center Toes reached around, and that something someow closed or pinched them.

I see quite a few 'string feet', likely to the tune of about three percent of the Pigeons, and this of course can threaten not only Toes, but the whole Foot, and or leave scars or swollen areas from infection damage.

I have (knock on Wood,) seen only one 'Bumblefoot' amid the ferals here, and I have not been able to catch him yet, but he is active and walks on it with no appearent discomfort or favor.


Best wishes...

Good luck with your Feet and Leg issue Birds...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jayme (May 25, 2005)

My latest flock addition is a real sweetie pie. He's the 2nd pigeon I've had with a leg held up at times. His foot is a knot and I just get the feeling it's painful and he doesn't want the pressure of walking on it. Mudface used to hold his foot up too. It had been tangled with string, which makes me wonder -- how do the string incidents happen?

Jayme


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

String, hair, twine, fishing line, thrown on the ground instead of being thrown
in garbage container. The bird may walk thru it innocently or be attracted to it
for nest building purposes. It tightens around foot over time and causes injury, sometimes loss of toes and other deformities. If you can catch the bird, there are some great links here that show how to help a bird w/string foot injury to prevent further damage. Or if there is an avian vet or rehabber in your area
willing to work on pigeons, you could bring them there for help.

Regarding the wing injuries, sometimes during a group feed, if the group takes 
off for fright reasons quickly in group, I've seen a member of the flock graze a 
traffic sign or the like w/wing. It's hard in a group to always navigate around the urban setting when taking off to avoid "danger".

fp


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## juanita (Jul 26, 2005)

One other cause to young pigeons injurys are the pigeon baffles that are put on buildings. I found a hurt youngster right under a building that had spikes on any surface a bird could perch. Strangly enough the adults have strenght and skill to manuver around them and roost. Young birds with no flight skills or strenght drop like a rock when they have to abort a landing.It amazes me how this wild flock insists on sunning themslves on this building. After reading other posts about gull attacks maybe since there are alot of gulls around they feel protected by the spikes. Just a thought.


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