# Note to bluecheck and George



## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

We had a discussion about the odds of same sex nest mates which inspired me to do some reading. It seems that the experts say exactly what bluecheck said about the percentages and that the "always one of each" is nothing more than myth. 

After raising so many pigeons and doves, you'd think that I would have been aware of this. Maybe I raised so many that I just lost track as I thought that maybe I had a few same sex nestmates over the years. It still is hard for me to believe that I could have overlooked this for so long and not noticed how it actually works.

As I said, I am going to pay particular attention this year as I have plenty of time to figure out what is going on.

My very first round of babies appears to be two male Roller pigeons. I was trying to figure out why there were two long downed babies (no dilute) in the nest from a yellow (ash yellow, I think) male and a black female and was ready to accuse the hen of fooling around. One of the babies is black and the other ash red. Upon checking the Quinn book, it seems that they should be both ash reds. I'm even more confused than before.

I went to some genetic sites and found some interesting stuff and found that I have alot more to learn than I thought. Not that I felt that I knew it all but I thought I had pigeon genetics fairly well in hand. There are many new things and new colors have been produced since I last paid attention. That's a good thing and I know that I have plenty to learn which is also good. Makes it interesting again.

Also found pictures of brown which I was never certain what it looked like and didn't think I ever had any. I may have some brown rollers in my flock that I was calling silver and dun. I'll post some pics and you guys can tell me what you think. 

Hope the genetic forum takes place as I feel that we could really use one.

Bill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

+++++++++++++++Moved and bumping up******************


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Morning Bill, 

You say: "My very first round of babies appears to be two male Roller pigeons. I was trying to figure out why there were two long downed babies (no dilute) in the nest from a yellow (ash yellow, I think) male and a black female and was ready to accuse the hen of fooling around. One of the babies is black and the other ash red. Upon checking the Quinn book, it seems that they should be both ash reds. I'm even more confused than before."

If you have the results you have in the nest from the ash-yellow (ash-red dilute) cock X black (Spread) of the black and ash-red baby, then yes, MUST have two cocks in the nest. This is not a sex linked mating on the ash side, but it IS sex-linked with the dilution. Also, the cock bird MUST be heterozygous for wild-type (blue/black). If he were homozygous for ash-red, you would have all ash youngsters. 

Any short down young will be hens; any long down young will be cocks. As for color; you can have ash-red cocks and hens and blue/black cocks and hens (and all the hens will be dilutes of these colors.)


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Correct*

I'm just surprised to find 2 males in my first babies.

I'm now certain that this cock bird is ash yellow, not recessive which I wasn't certain of before as he has white flights and tail and has some mottling or grizzle as well. It also seems that he is split for blue (silver in his case), I just never noticed flecking, again because of white flights and tail.

I've also seen before that some believed that first hatch babies were always the male and I actually wondered about it myself. I have another nest of babies with a dilute baby that hatched first over the intense in a recessive red OC X black OH. The dilute baby has to be a hen, of course we don't know on the other but time will tell. Just another observation. Now, watch them both be hens.

Bill


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

jbangelfish said:


> I'm just surprised to find 2 males in my first babies.
> I've also seen before that some believed that first hatch babies were always the male and I actually wondered about it myself.
> 
> Bill


When I began breeding my birds, they were all hen/cock babies. Only one pair of my first time breeders had a pair of males. As a result one of them is named Rosie. as I thought they always were mixed pairs. He was nearly grown by the time I realized he was not a she. I've learned a lot since then.

Margaret


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Funny huh?*

We're never too old to learn. It still seems to me that the vast majority of my birds were one of each sex in the nest but as I've said before, I must have just not paid enough attention to them. I had too many birds and too many jobs to keep track of everything. I kept great records but only to know which babies came from what pair. Hard to believe that I could raise so many birds and not ever notice the sex ratios of nestmates.

Bill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

jbangelfish said:


> We're never too old to learn. It still seems to me that the vast majority of my birds were one of each sex in the nest but as I've said before, I must have just not paid enough attention to them. I had too many birds and too many jobs to keep track of everything. I kept great records but only to know which babies came from what pair. Hard to believe that I could raise so many birds and not ever notice the sex ratios of nestmates.
> 
> Bill


I don't think that's something that most folks would keep up with. I know I don't. I just know that I do get a few nests every year with same sex babies in them. Got two YB hens both sitting on eggs right now. They are nest mates. My first two babies that I banded this year were both red cocks out of a sex linked mating. I haven't figured out the sexes of all my young birds this year, but I plan on going back through the records later in the year and see just how many same sex nests I get.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I never did*

But I am now as well. I could have figured them out by checking band numbers and sex as they matured but just never took the time. As I said, I had too many birds and too many jobs to worry about it and pretty much just assumed that they were always one of each (or nearly so).

Bill


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