# Seeds falling out of the crop, please help!



## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

My husband and I found a pigeon this afternoon in the parking lot, it seen to be ok, just cold (a lot of snow here in OH) so we put him in the tub with a towel, some bird food and water, turn off the lights and left. When we got back home after about 6 or 7 hours I checked on him, he was alert, shinny eyes, droppings bright green (some white in it) and a little runny, then I noticed a bad smell and when I checked found a wound near the right wing and the chest and saw some seeds in it, after some searching on the web I try to clean the wound with some saline solution and WHAT A BIG SURPRISE TO ME more and more seeds came out, so I stop and did some more browsing and that is how I found this website. Can any one give me some advise  I have very limited financial resources and I don't know where to take him. 

Thanks!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

If you have any emergency vets in your area get on the telephone and find out where to bring this pigeon..Sounds like a open gash into its crop---but I don;t know. In the GENERAL DISCUSSIONS category find a sticky called : Saving a pigeon or Dove -something like that and read it--this is important- (I don't know how to do the link thing so you will have to find it) They call these important things stickeys...There will in time I hope be other people joining in this thread to help you. Keep it warm and feed it and offer it water in a dish by gently dipping its beak in water and if it can it will suck it up--if it can--but it is complicated here because of the crop tear I guess???See if you have any emergency type of vet and call and see if you can get help with this situation. Read that stickly ...c.hert


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

It sounds like this bird has a crop fistula. I would be very careful about bringing him to a rehab place or to a vet, because many people will euthanize. Thanks to Pidgey, I've learned that crop fistulas heal themselves over time. Another route would be to see an avian vet who will suture the crop and then the overlying skin. I employed the latter method with the first crop fistula bird I had and the former with the last. In both cases, the crop healed fine.

Is any food staying in the crop? Can you post a picture?

Jennifer


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Thank you for saving this poor bird Karicostas. I have never encountered a pigeon with a torn crop. Our veteran member and rehabber Pidgey is one of the experts that can advise on matters such as this one. I sent him a private message so he visit your thread. A picture of the woud would help. I have heard that superglue is also effective. Once the wound is closed, the healing begins. Keep the pigeon warm.


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Thank you very much for all of your responses, I posted a couple of pictures of the wound... I hope this help. I don't know anything about pigeons, is this situation beyond any help? is the pigeon suffering? Thanks again!


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kari,

I think the fistula will heal over time. The most recent bird I had with a fistula had one that looked similar, and it healed in a couple of weeks. Pidgey can give you better advice once he comes along.

Is the bird producing droppings? Can you use saline to wash away the dried blood on the surrounding skin?

Jennifer


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I think you better try to get ahold of a vet because it looks like some kind of a gun shot wound to me that torn the crop apart---See if you have any vet emergencies where you are and take it to them or find out where you can take it and say it is your pet so they won't send the bird elsewhere and you never know what happens to it. So say it is a pet bird and you want to help get it well because its crop is torn or a crop fistula like 
Jenfer says...c.hert


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

jenfer said:


> It sounds like this bird has a crop fistula. I would be very careful about bringing him to a rehab place or to a vet, because many people will euthanize. Thanks to Pidgey, I've learned that crop fistulas heal themselves over time. Another route would be to see an avian vet who will suture the crop and then the overlying skin. I employed the latter method with the first crop fistula bird I had and the former with the last. In both cases, the crop healed fine.
> 
> Is any food staying in the crop? Can you post a picture?
> 
> Jennifer


this the best advice IMO......


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Well I just got back home the pigeon still looks alert, it has been eating ant the droppings are more dark green with some white and firm. I also got the saline solution and I want to clean his wound, but I have no idea how to do this, any suggestions?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you can wrap him in a towel, like a burrito, fold down the part where the wound is and clean it, an extra person would be helpful. I would not rub too hard though IF as said before may heal on it's own...


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

I would love to take him to a vet, but after making some phone calls I found it to be way out of my budget (just for the office visit) I am willing to do anything within my reach to help this pigeon... I wish I could do more. Thanks for the reply...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

karicositas said:


> I would love to take him to a vet, but after making some phone calls I found it to be way out of my budget (just for the office visit) I am willing to do anything within my reach to help this pigeon... I wish I could do more. Thanks for the reply...


good luck, hope it does heal, some feed has to get into him though for him to survive of course, so hope all his feed is not being spilled from the crop tear. do the best you can is all you can do... you have already done more than alot would for a feral/lost pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Someone is missing a homing pigeon and wondering where it is. Thank you for helping him.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Karicositas: Take the bird to a avian vet tomorrow and I am assuming you live in Ohio..and when you get a receipt from the vet I will mail you the needed funds to pay for 1/2 the visit and it should not be over 100 dollars and if you do this the bird might have a chance of surviving--a chance--thats more than it has right now if it was shot at with a bb gun or pellet or something--the vet will let you know and clean it out and sew it up and by the way--your bird food looks real yummy---If you are okay with this go into my profile and give me your name or e-mail or address so that I will have somewhere to mail the money after you get the vet receipt..c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have a referral for a *wonderfu*l rehabber in Ohio. I don't know haw far apart you are., but at least you can give her a call and see if she knows of someone close to you that can help.

God's Little Critters,Inc 
Wildlife Rehabilitation & Learning Center

Maribeth Taylor, Director 

Willard, OH 44890 
419-935-1782 
State & Federal Permits


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kari,

If he's passing droppings, then obviously food is getting through.

You can put the saline in a syringe and squirt it at the area you want to clean. You can use gauze to gently pat it dry. Can you also look to see if you see any other wounds besides the hole?

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Those always look awful, and usually aren't functionally quite as bad as they look. Check out Pierpont:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

You can clean that stuff out of the hole and then stuff will just leak out faster... Pierpont's was quite a mess as you can see in that thread. While the vet literally trimmed around the edges to have fresh flesh to heal back together, it didn't actually hold. As such, it seems to me to be better to simply "manage" the healing process in wounds like that which have been that way for long enough that the body has already begun its own healing strategy. If something is mechanically holding the fistula open, it cannot "tractor" itself closed properly, of course, so it behooves us to clean the garbage out and do something to kinda' pull it somewhat more closed and hold it that way. Stitches actually work the best but we always tend to expect them to not leak and in a case like this, they very well might.

Hard to tell due to the picture (closeups can be deceiving) but is most of that wound kinda' under wing on one side? These days, I'd probably tend on a wound like that to be less concerned with removing all the scab and just keep the bird on an antibiotic. The scab tends to keep the stuff underneath from drying out and it can be slowly picked at around the edges over a period of days or weeks to help it eventually close. That is, the actual hole in the outer skin. The crop will probably have sealed with the outer skin in a ring (regardless of the actual shape, it's still a ring) that will also close in time by way of the "tractoring" mentioned above. As long as food and water can make it through the bird in sufficient quantities, that is.

By the way, if you can post some pictures of the droppings by something to give a size reference (like a dime or other coin), then we can get a better idea how well food is going through. As to pain, I've no doubt it was painful getting the wound but they surprisingly don't seem to give crop wounds that much attention as though they were dying of pain.

Pidgey


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Thank you for the advice it was really helpful!


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Hello everybody, thank you very much for the good wishes and the VERY helpful advice on how to care for this little guy, I strongly believe he is a fighter! As an update he is still alert, eating and drinking 

I have a few questions about his ongoing treatment, how can I get antibiotics for him and what would be the appropriate dose? About the food, what is the recommended diet on this case? does he need grits? 

I am posting some pictures on regards to his droppings and the wound after I cleaned a little bit with the saline solution (I covered the hole with a little piece of non stick pad while I was cleaning the surroundings, is this ok?)

Once again thank you for everything!!!


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Karicositas, the injury on this bird is due to a hawk attack some how she got caught and were about to be eaten and got away. I have an experience on this matter due to I do raise racing pigeon and one of my birds came home with the same injuries. The problem is how old is the wound? Looking at the pictures it tells me that it has been over 2 days that is the reason why it is smelly and the darkening around the flesh. I don't think it will heal up in time and if it does the bird will be dead by then due to not being able to eat or drink properly. Anyway what I did with my bird is a have a medical kit and put all the crop together then cover the wound with a superglue or liquid band aid so that no water or food will get it wet, then I stitch the outer skin together and aldo cover it with liquid band aid the birds recover and now back in my racing team and name him scar face. You really need the clean the wound up properly with betadine, pull the feather out around it, and kinda putting a puzzle back once you start stitching the crop and the outer skin. Let the liquid band aid or superglue dry and the birds should be able to eat and keep the food in its crop. you can also get a Kaytee hand feeding formula and a syringe to feed him if not give him pellets a rabbit pellets will work since it is reach in protein and a lot softer, and absorb water properly, after couple of days she should be back eating by itself. It will also benefit if you can use a dissolving thread. Let me know if this help.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kari,

You can feed him a pigeon mix (which it looks like you already are?) and also offer grit. 

You can often get antibiotics from a fish store. I don't use those, so I'll let someone else comment. I'd probably use amoxicillin or Sulfatrim. Maybe Pidgey will have other ideas. 

The skin around the fistula--is that just dried blood, or is it scabbing? The crop fistula birds I've had had comparatively "clean" wounds.

Food is obviously getting through based on the droppings, so I don't see why this shouldn't be able to heal. 

Jennifer


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You are going to lose your bird---take it to the vet---and it might be too late now---I offered to pay you half and got no answer...c.hert


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Kari, the crop is where all birds tore their food, from here they will have to drink water to kinda soften whatever they ingested. The main problem is this bird is not able to do that, because of the wound, and if you keep it open for so long it will end up drying up some of the organs that is not suppose to be expose to the environment. You really need to close the wound up as soon as possible. The picture of the dropping is not normal because it is already turning green, meaning the bird is stress or already passing what food he got left in his body.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, you're already way deep into the "healing by second intention" category here--this wound's been this way for at least a week. Most of that area between the edges of feathered skin and the hole in the actual crop has already begun the epithelialization (it's harder to say out loud than read) process that will convert it to a scar-like membrane. If you try to close skin over it, it'll amass a bunch of material that the bird's body cannot break down or remove (this is because avian heterophils lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue) . "Dehiscent" would be a good word to describe what would happen... google it.

In time, it will form that membrane that will eventually pull all of the skin around it towards the center until, after a couple of months, you can't find anything to show that there was ever a problem in the first place. The healing of that outside hole will be slightly different (and take longer) than the closing up of the hole in the actual crop itself.

For most racers and well-conditioned ferals, this bird's poop doesn't look quite right. Racer poop usually looks almost black but if you smear a fresh load out on white paper, you realize that it's really just very, very dark green. Their bile is green, and the darker it is, the stronger it is. However, an awful lot of birds go their entire lives without pumping out the super dark green poops of healthy racers. As to how much food is getting through, the poops in the picture above would be typical for how long? A bird like that could make quite a few of those in a 24-hour period. 20? 30? If that's more in line with what he's actually doing, then food and water are getting through. Those poops don't look particularly unusual in terms of their solids content.

As to an antibiotic, Amoxicillin or Sulfatrim (Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination--more trade names than you can count) would be fine. Question is... which can you find? Where in Ohio? Sometimes we can scour the net and find a petstore that's got a good product for the money.

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Sounds good to me Pidgey and I hope it goes well like that and I will be keeping an eye on this thread to see how all of this works out...c.hert


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's generally a bad idea to suture up a badly infected wound or wound site. That's what's meant by the phrase "healing by second intention". In humans, we sometimes install a shunt to drain liquids produced in such a case but in birds it doesn't work because they literally can't liquify their own inflammatory and cellular debris--bird pus has more the general consistency of scrambled eggs or a soft cheese.

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats a very nice piece of information to know thank you---me if I ever saw something like that I would have a heart attack and would bring it to any emergencey vet help I could get even in the middle of the night so its good that no one here gives me any phone number because I would be calling you and screaming about this emergency. You know Collins book only goes so far and you need to have active experience on a lot of these things--which I have practical experience and no how with a good dose of common sense and can judge some things but others I need expert advice and thats Avian Vet time...I really appreciate the down to earth talk that I understand ---you are a true teacher....Pidgey Thanks ...c.hert


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

The questions is how will be the crop develop and how will the bird store food? The first problem is the actual crop is tore up. Again I have suture mine that have the same damage and by using liquid band aid I able to sealed off the stitches and the bird able to drink without any sign of leakage. The food need to pass the crop in order for the bird to be able to digest any food. The crop is like a baloon inside the breast of the bird in this case his breast muscle and the crop both got tore up, by letting it heal thru second intention there is a probability that the crop will not even develop and may or may not afect the bird but we don't know that for sure. My bird is fine now and able to road train again his scar all healed and the feathers are all back to normal.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

That is absolutely wonderful---you two are getting it together---and thats real good news Soymi69 so I won't worry about the pigeon anymore---Can Karicositas take care of all that? c.hert


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well, I'm no way claiming as an expert, but I been around birds my whole life, as far as me suttering my birds I did got help from my wife, my first concern was to keep the bird relax and not stress so I hold it and cover the head with a cloth while my wife suttered the crop first, then when we were done suttering the crop we pause and thought hard that the wound will not heal properly because it will keep getting wet as the bird drink, so we look at our medicine box and found a liquid bandaid, we both look at each other and said why not, so we apply the liquid band aid let it dry and then started to sutter the breast muscle, if was ugly because were both not expert in this medical procedure and we were busy pulling the feathers around the wound, he was very ugly when we got done but I think the bird know that he will going to survive because he was content when I put him on a separate cage to heal, he immediately flap his wings like telling us that he is okay. Now Scarface is back to looking good and one of my best bird and always first to come home, I have high hopes for him not so much to win but to complete a 300 mile old bird race this coming race season.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well you two have done more than what I am capable of and I hope it turns out well and I hope Karicositas is capable of doing what needs to be done without a vet for I would have taken the bird to an Avian Vet many days ago, but if you all think it is going to work your way---you sure know more about this than I do--then so be it. I sincerely have my doubts that the bird will make it and to me it would be a miracle for I am waiting for it to die and feeling bad about it for I can't contribute any other way besides paying for half the vet visit.....You all have the faith so we will see...its all beyond my capabilities.c.hert


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well we haven't heard from Kari since 16 February, so I hope that everything is okay.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The biggest worry is that the bird would get a systemic bacterial infection from whatever made the wound in the first place. Admittedly, I don't like the "browning" of the ceres that may be apparent in the lowest picture in Post #19. Usually when pigeons come down with Pasteurella multocida (a very common bacteria found in the mouths and on the claws of predators which can be very lethal to birds), they'll die in about four days without protective antibiotic therapy. That's always a real danger although pigeons are about the toughest bird out there with respect to that. That's why we like to get them on Clavamox (Amoxicillin plus Clavulanic Acid), straight Amoxicillin, Baytril or some other antibiotic that has significant activity against P. multocida.

Anyhow, with respect to that big, gaping hole... I know, I know... it seems like there's no way that they should be able to get food and water through. Frankly, it can depend a lot on exactly where the hole is and how the bird stands. Yep, a bunch can fall out. Let's say that 50% falls out, well, the bird just tends to eat 100% more. The same goes with water. It's different how much for every different presentation of that kind of wound.

Yes, a person can gather the edges of the actual crop wound up with stitches and pull it somewhat together and it will heal faster. If Karicositas showed up more, and especially if we were on at the same time for a "discussion", I might even consider talking them through more procedural stuff along those lines. We don't want to dress THAT wound with spray-on stuff or superglue at this point, though. Medical superglues aren't actually intended to glue the insides of wounds together, you know. We have some now that can be broken down, but I don't know if that applies to avian tissues, seeing as how they don't even break their own inflammatory debris down. Regular superglue is just going to leave a hunk of plastic in there pretty much forever.

If I were working the outer skin back together, I'd have to break the fascia around the wound and then pull it together over the whole mess. You wouldn't be suturing it up so much as "lacing up a vest", where you'd have to undo it every few days to clean out the crap that will build up. Personally, I would do that after getting the bird on antibiotic therapy, but that crop hole needs to be addressed as well before trying.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

C.Hert--

If you are eager to contribute financially to the care of feral pigeons, I'd happily accept any donations to help pay for the vet care my rehab patients get. I just had an x-ray done today that cost $136. I have another pigeon who is likely lead poisoned who I'd like to get an x-ray on. 

Just thought I'd put it out there.

Jennifer


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

No Jenifer that's not how this works...I offered to pay for (karicositas) 1/2 of vet bill if she would bring that birdie to a avian vet for help so it could be immediately taken care of and would help the pigeon eat and digest and feel alot better as well as put (Karicositas) mind at ease but no one wanted me in the loop at all until the very last three postings when they were all explaining what they were doing with the bird and it made sense to me and I posted that on the thread and still many days later Karicositas never came back for an update for us about the bird. The last thing I saw for an education was someone in a lab get up with gloves on taking pictures of a bandage that they put on the bird which was an update but where is the bird today and how is it doing and its been a long time ago I suggested they take this bird into a avian vet. I pick and choose who I want to give to and no solitictations are necessary at this point of the junction . Good luck on your donation getting for your birds and animals you take care of and I hope you get many donations for your work to continue...because I am sure it is meaningful work as well as good work....c.hert


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

I agree with C.Hert.

Also It was totally insensitive and inappropriate for you to ask C.Hert directly for a donation. C.Hert kindly offered to help with an life and possibly death situation by paying half a vet fee.

We are all waiting to hear from Karicositas about his poor pigeon and to have you post for a donation is in my opinion in totally out of order.

You are not the only pigeon rehabber in need of funds on this site. Every rehabber is in your postion, but there is a time and a place to ask for funds and that is not in the middle of a very sensitive thread.

Jayne UK pigeon rehabber


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

I agree this is not a place to ask for any donation. Our main concern is to what happen to the injured bird. It seems like we are the only one talking here and not the actual person that has a problem. I guess we just wish Kari the best of luck. Thank you everyone for trying to help this bird.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

PigeonQueen said:


> I agree with C.Hert.
> 
> Also It was totally insensitive and inappropriate for you to ask C.Hert directly for a donation. C.Hert kindly offered to help with an life and possibly death situation by paying half a vet fee.
> 
> ...



These are tough times for many. From what I can see Jennifer does more than her fair share. Sometimes we get to the point where we are forced to pick and choose and do our best. As an advocate, there is never an inappropriate or insensitive time to ask for help on behalf of those creatures in our care, often creatures everyone else would walk on past and not give a second thought. It's OK to ask and it's OK to say no.
Let's cut Jennifer some slack. As I see it, she was being a good advocate.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Charis's post made me rethink my original thoughts, as she makes some good points. I think where things went a little off course was that the request for any possible assistance was done in the thread itself. If the request would have been done through PM, any discussion between C.Hert and Jennifer would have remained private, as I think a matter like this should be. And for C.Hert, I have seen a few times now where you have very generously offered, bless you, to help out financially with some funds toward helping a sick bird get well. Just a suggestion, but in the future I think if you PM'd the person directly it may be a better idea for you both. If you have not used the PM feature of the site before, just mention it, and we'll help you with that.

Karyn


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

If you have read the thread Dobato from the beginning you would have seened how all of this played out and no in the future when I pick up on a emergency I really feel like helping for one reason or another ---I will not use---the PM system as you call it, because it is better to communicate in these situations in the now time---I suggest before you make a statement on things at least you owe person the good manner intention to know what you are talking about...and in this case in my opinion I just don't think you do...c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Charis's post made me rethink my original thoughts, as she makes some good points. I think where things went a little off course was that the request for any possible assistance was done in the thread itself. If the request would have been done through PM, any discussion between C.Hert and Jennifer would have remained private, as I think a matter like this should be. And for C.Hert, I have seen a few times now where you have very generously offered, bless you, to help out financially with some funds toward helping a sick bird get well. Just a suggestion, but in the future I think if you PM'd the person directly it may be a better idea for you both. If you have not used the PM feature of the site before, just mention it, and we'll help you with that.
> 
> Karyn


How often have I heard myself say...it never hurts to ask?...more than I can count. Jennifer asked. Jennifer is a good advocate. She saw an opening and she walked through the door. My style or your may be different form hers and that's OK too. Jennifer is a good advocate and I commend her for that.
Jennifer asked. Jennifer was told no. That's OK too.

We know Jennifer could use some help for her worthy endeavors and it's good to know. Had she asked for a contributtion via PM, no one would know that she will accept assistance. With a rehabber...a little can go a long way.
Most of you would be mind boggled if you knew how much rehabbers spend and for the most part, done of us says a word.


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

I agree that a rehabber do spend a lot of money and time. I guess the best possible way to help is to open another thread that will benefit all the rehabber in here. That way there is a room for them and not getting attack by others thoughts.


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## bluebirdsnfur (Jan 20, 2009)

I just want to know if that poor pijie is ok


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just wanted to mention that I have been very pleased with an antibiotic Ointment called 'Silver Sulfadiazine' ( typically it is a prescription item...)


On any larger wounds or areas of missing tissue, it seems to both reduce thickening, scarring, keep things 'moist' so they do not become itchy or dessicated, and, promotes healing generally.


Probably, for this Bird, presenting Seeds several times a day, in small quantities, would allow him to eat plenty overall, and, not fill his Crop at any given meal so much that the Seeds are falling out from his Crop being too full.


Hope all is going well!



As Pidgey mentiones a few Posts up, systemic Antibiotics would be a good idea.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well.................................ya know, don't want this to sound like siding with anyone, but I feel that just because someone offers somebody else help, for whatever reason, that's their business. But then for someone else to come in and ask that person directly for a donation, it puts that person in the position of having to say no. That could be awkward for that person. They for what ever reason, wanted to help in one situation. Doesn't mean that they are just looking to donate, or that they can even afford to. Now, as for the PMing an offer of help, don't know why that didn't go over well, as that would have made it more private, and maybe easier for the other person to accept the help. There's nothing wrong with using PMs as it makes it a private matter. But I guess that is up to the individual. I see nothing wrong with asking for help, if it is generalized and not putting anyone in an uncomfortable spot. People who rehab work very hard, and often have many expenses, and I think it's okay to ask for help, and many of us like the opportunity to help. It's our way of doing what we can. But no one should be made to feel awkward.


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Having performing rollers I have had this before. Hawk has torn open crop with talons. I know it's been awhile but if still there take feed out of crop .. Flush with warm water .... Using sewing thread & needle heat needle on open flame & sew up like a tear in your pants. Put iodine on stitches ... Keep in warm 80 plus till eating normal then take away heat slowly. Best of luck In the Fancy


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

For my part I will say that after Kari already posted that she could not see a vet, and after Kari already got fantastic information from Pidgey as to how to care for this bird's injuries, I saw C.Hert state again that the bird should see a vet and she would have been willing to contribute. C.Hert also expressed frustration that she had made this offer and that it wasn't taken advantage of. 

I simply offered C.Hert another outlet to provide help if she or he wanted to. Just because this particular pigeon is not getting vet care does not mean that she/he is going to die, despite what C.Hert might think. However, there are many others in need out there for whom financial contributions can mean the difference between life or death. If donations don't go to me (and again, *I* personally am not benefiting here--the BIRDS are), then by all means send them to other rehabbers who are struggling!

For the record, I *never* ask for donations for the birds I take in, and for the vast majority of them, I receive absolutely nothing. However, if I saw someone stating again and again that they wanted to contribute financially to a certain situation but were rebuffed, I see no problem in saying, Here's another place where you can help. It's regrettable that so many here are personally offended. However, as Charis said, one can always say no and there's no harm done. If the answer is yes, then more animals are potentially helped/saved. Isn't it worth it to take the chance for their sake?

Jennifer


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

No harm done Jenfer for we all love animals and are working together here and this thread has been a eye opener in more ways then one--under the circumstances--I think it just wasn't called for at that moment and we are all waiting to hear imput from Karicositas and see what happen to the birdie so far--everything is all good. c.hert


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

*Update... Update... Update...*

Well, hello everybody. I AM VERY SORRY for not keeping you updated everyday... but the pigeon is doing good (I think very good as it is only day 7 since I rescued him) he is eating, drinking and alert. Today he flew a short distance from the vanity to the tub and proceeded to get in his little upside down plastic igloo in my spare bathroom where I have been keeping him. On regards to the droppings I will try to count them to get a total for the next 24 hours. 
I live in Columbus, OH and will definitely get his antibiotics as I think they are vital for the treatment of this injury (just need to be pointed in the right direction, I asked for it on a couple of fish/pet stores and they said it would be very difficult to get them w/o prescription) THANK YOU for all the support that you give me to help this little guy! Here are some of the latest pictures, some times they speak louder than words...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Absolutely wonderful---good for you and everybody who contributed...c.hert


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, looking better! Okay, let's try calling around to the local feedstores--some of them carry antibiotics. Be sure and ask each one if they know of one that does if they don't carry those kinds of products themselves. Of course, sometimes they sell only in large quantities that can cost quite a bit themselves and since funding is a problem, we might not go that route. If somebody's close that can mail you some, that might also work.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

jenfer said:


> For my part I will say that after Kari already posted that she could not see a vet, and after Kari already got fantastic information from Pidgey as to how to care for this bird's injuries, I saw C.Hert state again that the bird should see a vet and she would have been willing to contribute. C.Hert also expressed frustration that she had made this offer and that it wasn't taken advantage of.
> 
> I simply offered C.Hert another outlet to provide help if she or he wanted to. Just because this particular pigeon is not getting vet care does not mean that she/he is going to die, despite what C.Hert might think. However, there are many others in need out there for whom financial contributions can mean the difference between life or death. If donations don't go to me (and again, *I* personally am not benefiting here--the BIRDS are), then by all means send them to other rehabbers who are struggling!
> 
> ...



It absolutely is worth to take the chance and ask. I don't think you did anything wrong. All of us who rehab know what a financial burden their medical care can be. There were times I was absolutely desperate to save a bird and just couldn't come up with the money and I found help on PT. For one I know my Yodi was saved thanks to wonderful members/friends who helped me with donations. 
There is nothing wrong with asking, you don't know where help can come from.
You can pm me your address.

Reti


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I could mail you some Cipro Monday morning, you should get it the latest on Wednesday.
PM me your address.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that you posted, with such a positive update too! He is looking very well...well done!


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## Ross Howard (Nov 26, 2009)

Hawk attack has tore crop clean sanitize sew with thread & needle fresh feed & water. Make sure water dish at least twice as deep as beak is long. Good Luck


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Reti, I'm a little closer and can mail her some. Just tell me how many. I also have doxycycline, amoxicillin. some Cipro. Some of that Nistatin, isn't that for wounds? PM me you address and I will get it out tomorrow morning. We just got something from ebay from ohio and it only took one day. Reti, I know how your post offices are in FL. LOL One time it you didn't get what I sent you until 10 days after I sent it.

That Silver stuff that someone mentioned does work miracles. Can be found at a health food store. 

c. hert, I think its great that you offered.

Jennifer, I know you do a lot of work and I understand your position also. When it comes to animals, its alright to ask for help especially in this day and time, everyone is having trouble. I wish I could help everyone. I remember you when you helped all of those doves and built that aviary. Great Job. min


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Reti said:


> I could mail you some Cipro Monday morning, you should get it the latest on Wednesday.
> PM me your address.
> 
> Reti


Hello Reti, thank you so much for offering medicine for this little guy, I have already PM Mindy, I just don't know what would be the appropriate dose for this pigeon... any thoughts?


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Great to hear from you and piggie looks really bright. It is so good to hear your positive news. Please keep us updated.Thank you for caring. Jayne


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

karicositas said:


> Hello Reti, thank you so much for offering medicine for this little guy, I have already PM Mindy, I just don't know what would be the appropriate dose for this pigeon... any thoughts?


Mindy is closer to you so you should get it, hopefully the second day.
As for the dose, you need to weigh the bird.
You will receive a pill of 500mg, which you dissolve in 33cc water. If the bird is around 300gr you give O.3cc twice a day.

Mindy can you also send a syringe and if you have some Flagyl?


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I have not visited this thread in a couple of days but gladly see that a happy ending is near.Karicostas, you did an absolultely great job bringing this handsome pigeon back to near what he used to be. I JUST LOVE HAPPY ENDINGS! Are you planning on keeping him as a pet?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Mindy...I would send the nystain too.


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## Whitedove06 (Jul 7, 2009)

Kari- Thanks to you for saving this wonderful pigeon! The wound looks like it's healing; pigeons are tough birds, they're fighters. Keep him/her warm & calm. You're on the right track. Keep us posted. 
Pigji lover in Md.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Yes, I can send a couple of syringes and I have the metronidazole is that flagyl but another name? I'm getting the package ready now. and I just saw Charis's post and I will send the Nystain also.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes...metronidazole and flagyl are the same thing.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Thank you Charis. I thought it was but wanted to make sure, so many different names for all this stuff. also, she needs to send me her name, she just sent me her address unless you want me to put your user name as your name. But I want to make sure. min


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

*New development or negligence on my part?*

Hi again everybody, I was just cleaning Paloma's wound (that's how I have been calling him/her) as I do everyday and found something that just does not look right... I feel so bad for him and guilty for not seeing it before, I checked her all the way around a few days ago when Jen asked if she had any other wound and I DID NOT SEE IT, I just can not understand how because it is big, please take a good look at the picture and tell me what can I do


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Where in Ohio are you located? I may be able to find a resource for you. That doesn't look good at all.


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Charis said:


> Where in Ohio are you located? I may be able to find a resource for you. That doesn't look good at all.


Columbus, OH 43228 to be specific...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Don't know if you guys want to go this way, but there is a TSC that seems to be located close to karicositas, they list that they carry a Aureomycin + Sulmet Powder that's not too pricey;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=Columbus,+OH+43228+farm+supply&aq=f&aqi=&oq=

http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...fort-dodge-animal-health-antibacteria-2202454

This may allow her to get the bird started on some oral meds as early as the morning and switch meds once what you plan out send arrives.

Just a thought and good luck with this little one,

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

karicositas said:


> Columbus, OH 43228 to be specific...


Please, private message me your contact info and I will get on it in the morning.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kariscostis,


Given he has lived a week or more with these injuries...has been eating and pooping and muddling on...I would say, the prognosis is really very good.

It is not easy to provide a point-by-point instruction for evaluating and treating wounds.


Anyway...


Any areas which appear to have infection or liquid under the Skin, please let us know.

Otherwise, for now, continue to examine this Pigeon all over, lifting Feathers, 'feeling' with finger tips, and, see if there are any other injury sites.


A systemic Antibiotic will be good to do...as, also, deferential treatment of each injury-wound site...for which, more info soon, if you like.


Call around your area, and, see if you can find a friendly Vet who will allow you a fast visit and Bird exam for an easy price...and by then, we can advise you on what Meds to see about getting from the Vet for this Bird's regimen.

As Pidgey has suggested also, see if there are any Farm or Feed Stores near you, and, if they sell meds.


Can you post closer better focus images of the second wound site/injury?


Phil
Lv


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, Metronidazole (or another anti-canker) and another antibiotic given in combination looks pretty necessary at this point. Due to a business emergency, I'm basically "out-of-pocket" this week.

Try to give a good description of what we're seeing in that latest picture, though. Is the hole by your thumb the wound that we've been addressing all this time and the "bubbles" in the upper portion of the picture (below your index finger) essentially more wound that you hadn't noticed up to this point? I guess some important questions at this point are whether or not food continues to leak from the hole we've been worried about all this time; what poops are coming out the back end in terms of solids and urates; whether those new bubbles are full of seeds and water OR yellow, scrambled egg-like material (kinda' hard to tell, but you can kinda' illuminate them by pushing a small flashlight up against them); and whether the bird has been losing weight or is maintaining.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

karicositas said:


> Columbus, OH 43228 to be specific...


I just spoke to this clinic...

Dr Ram Mohan
7152 E. Main Street
Reynoldsburg, Ohio 43068
614-755-2273
614-755-2112…emergency

The clinic is about 12.5 miles from Columbus. Exam is $40., the receptionist thought that perhaps an additional $40. for medication could be expected. An evaluation in the least at this point would be the prudent thing to do. The rest you can take from there. They can't make you do anything you don't want to do.
C.hert has already offered to help with the vet bill. I suspect we can raise the rest here if those that can each contribute a little. It seems to make more sense at this point rather than continuing on as you have been. It makes more sense for the bird sake,to see if there is anything else or other injuries.


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Thank you Charis, I will contact them right now and make arrangements to take him there, I really appreciate any financial help for him. 
I will keep everybody posted as to how everything develops today, meanwhile here are the other pictures showing a better focus of the most recently found injury. As for the bird's weight I was not tracking it, but I am starting today (407 grams), no more food or water leaking since about 5 days ago and for the droppings I am also posting a picture. I tried to see what is in those bubbles with the flash ligth and I think that they are seeds (not sure) and the outer layer feels hard (like a scab)


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

*more pictures*

This are the other pictures, I found an appointment for today at 2:00 pm...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's really good.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes everybody take that bird to the vet and I will pay half of the vet bill just send me an address where to send the check to with Karicositas name and send me the vet receipt later....God speed....c.hert


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I mailed the nystain, the metrondazole, and the cipro. 2 tablets each at 500 mg. and I forget how much of the nystain. 

At 400 grams, the bird is actually a pretty good weight still which is good news. min


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

c.hert said:


> Yes everybody take that bird to the vet and I will pay half of the vet bill just send me an address where to send the check to with Karicositas name and send me the vet receipt later....God speed....c.hert



The bird should be at the vet right now. Thank you c.hert.


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Hello Everyone, I just got out of the Vet's office and she said Paloma's prognosis is not good even with surgery. The Dr. writes "We could attempt to surgically remove all of the dead tissue and close the wounds with sutures, however the amount of tissue damage is extensive, and it is unlikely that there will be enough normal tissue remaining to close the wound or esophagus/ crop region. Human euthanasia is recommended." I am very sad about this prognosis, I do not want Paloma to die, but I really do not know what to do. Dr. says if I take her home the infection will continue to spread and it will eventually attack vital organs. Right now the smell is very strong...Any thoughts?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Fly her to birdie land....c.hert


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

karicositas said:


> Hello Everyone, I just got out of the Vet's office and she said Paloma's prognosis is not good even with surgery. The Dr. writes "We could attempt to surgically remove all of the dead tissue and close the wounds with sutures, however the amount of tissue damage is extensive, and it is unlikely that there will be enough normal tissue remaining to close the wound or esophagus/ crop region. Human euthanasia is recommended." I am very sad about this prognosis, I do not want Paloma to die, but I really do not know what to do. Dr. says if I take her home the infection will continue to spread and it will eventually attack vital organs. Right now the smell is very strong...Any thoughts?


You are there and you spoke to the vet in person. What is your gut level telling you?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

First thing I would do is pull out her food, although I have never had to deal with a crop issue like this, I am seeing seeds bulging from inside. As many of you know, or may not know, the crop has a separate membrane apart from the outer skin and I am wondering am I seeing this inner membrane pushing through torn skin. She is of sufficient weight that water only for the next little while won't be a problem for her. Second, she needs to get started on some aggressive antibiotic treatment ASAP. Third, she certainly looks bright eyed enough from her pictures and I would not make any final decisions on PTS (human euthanasia) before Pidgey weighed in on this.

Karyn


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I agree with Dobato, wait to see what Pidgey has to say and also Reti. Reti, I'm sure has had birds in this condition and see what she has to say also. I mean the bird hasn't lost that much weight in the week that you have had her. I have healthy birds that only weigh 340 grams. I sent the stuff to you, there are miracles everyday and the bird does look like it is alert and is still eating. I don't know, like Charis has said what is your gut feeling? Wait for the medicine, and wait a couple of days. So sorry about the outcome. Pigeons have survived much worse conditions and this one seems like she wants to live. Until she starts going down hill, I would keep trying. But thats me, I don't like to take anyones life even if they are suffering, but thats me being selfish, I guess. min


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Mindy, for sending the meds.

Judging from the pics, I have to agree with the vet that there is not enough healthy tissue to reconstruct the area. But I would not put the bird to sleep until all options are explored. I have never had a bird with such sort of injuries but I believe there is always something that can be done (well, almost always).
His spirits are good and he acts like a normal pigeon that wants to live. I think at this point he should be on injectable antibiotics and the vet should start cleaning out the wounds one by one. Maybe if he closes the crop and starts debriding the dead tissue then some healthy tissue will start growing back to cover the area.
His poops don't look great but definately some food is going through.
Would like to hear Pidgey's and Nooti's opinion.

Also, start him on a liquid diet cause he will need the nutrition. Pedialyte instead of water would also benefit him right now.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I agree with several here--if the hole has plugged up and the bird's holding more food in the crop, it WILL bulge and with the skin split on the outside, that's exactly what you're going to see, including the dried blood. I'd tend to get the bird on antibiotics, even if they had to be injected, and I'd limit his food intake so that his crop didn't get so stuffed. I'd give him Metronidazole orally AND injectable, if possible.

To be perfectly honest, most vets will give up on a bird like this fairly easily. Who knows, maybe it's because there's usually no money in treating them for the time it will take and so forth. But pigeons are incredibly tough, we've seen that around here often enough. With pigeons more than just about any other animal, where there's life, there's hope.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Second, she needs to get started on some aggressive antibiotic treatment ASAP. Third, she certainly looks bright eyed enough from her pictures and I would not make any final decisions on PTS (human euthanasia) before Pidgey weighed in on this.


Heartily agree with this. From Kari's description of the bird's behavior up till now, it's clear to me that he has a will to live. Kari, does it seem like the tissue is affected superficially, or does the crusting go into deeper layers? 

I think I might want to combine some antibiotics. If it were possible, I might do Baytril sub-q and add on another like Sulfatrim. Wondering if topical Silvadene might not be a bad idea either after trying to disinfect the site with something like chlorhexadene from the drug store.

Jennifer

Edit: Well, I see that Pidgey's here, so my response is redundant! Pidgey, why Flagyl? (I've used it with GI issues and know it's anti-canker, but am wondering where else it's indicated.)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That skin boundary around those bubbles just looks TOO good to feel that bad about it. What's the smell, by the way, can you describe it? Is he still at the vet?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, Flagyl (Metronidazole) does a few interesting things, including moderating the cell-mediated immune response:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

The reason why I was considering it is because it's possible that this bird drank some tainted water somewhere and could have contracted Trichomoniasis. It's just a monumentally bad time to get canker so I'd do it for prophylaxis. Also, Flagyl penetrates necrotic tissue very well.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pidgey, good to know about Flagyl and necrotic tissue!

So what do we think about the wounds that are away from the fistula? Were they somehow sustained during the initial injury, or are they a result of skin tearing when the crop got stretched after he gorged on seeds?

Jennifer


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I agree with Reti and Pidgey and all the others that what you to keep trying with the bird. Vets sometimes take the easy way out and just put to sleep, sadly because of money and also because its just a pigeon in there eyes. But this little pigeon has shown a will to live and with you helping it, it may make it. Give it a couple more days at least. Set a time, lets say 5 days and if it doesn't show any improvement then consider the other option. Please keep in contact here and let us know whats going on. I wish I would have seen the thread when you first posted and I could have sent you out the medicine a week ago. O'well, you'll hopefully get it tomorrow. Did the vet give you any medicine? min


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

karicositas said:


> Hello Everyone, I just got out of the Vet's office and she said Paloma's prognosis is not good even with surgery. The Dr. writes "We could attempt to surgically remove all of the dead tissue and close the wounds with sutures, however the amount of tissue damage is extensive, and it is unlikely that there will be enough normal tissue remaining to close the wound or esophagus/ crop region. Human euthanasia is recommended." I am very sad about this prognosis, I do not want Paloma to die, but I really do not know what to do. Dr. says if I take her home the infection will continue to spread and it will eventually attack vital organs. Right now the smell is very strong...Any thoughts?




Vets are usally wusses who give up fast if care and quality of care and involvement are called for, and, who have no experience dealing with recovery-care issues anyway, so to them, it looks like a hassle, and, they like fast-and-easy and get put off if something looks like a hassle.

I have dealt with worse injuries, and, there is no reason to condemn this Bird because of his injuries.

He can heal and get well and be fine again.

Obviously, he is a lovely Homer type, and, a very hardy individual to boot.


He can heal, and, the injuries can be cleaned and ministered to and the openings can slowly get smaller and close up.


Oye...wish you were closer, I'd gladly take him in and go from there.


Whats difficult here, is that this is a fairly complicated injury...though, if it is broken down into forthright steps, anyone with a willingness and interest to do so, could walk this Bird through from here to finished up healing.


As Pidgey mentions, Metronidazole, and, an Antibiotic regimen are appropriate.


Light meals, offered intentionally, let him eat for ten minutes, twice a day, then pull the Seeds, with no Seeds left in his cage between times.

Examine the injuries for 'bubbles' under the skin, and, see whatever is in the 'bubbles'.


Get a tube or two of "Silver Sulfadiazine" ( probably would have to be through the Vet )

Superficial dead tissue will dessicate, shrink, and fall off on it's own, as new and healing Tissue continues to progress. No need for Surgical excisions or being precipitous with that...in fact, allowing liesure and his own Body to deal with it, in my opinion, would be far better and safer and allow a better outcome.

Dieing Skin over 'Bubbles' will dessicate and get like brittle clear Cellophane and start splitting or cracking...but, before then, what I would do, is to clean these out.


One needs a regular 10 Ml Syringe, and, a No.8 French Pediatric Urinary Catheter of the 'soft' kind...whose 'Socket' End will fit easily on the snout of the non-luer-lock Syringe. Snip the Catheter so it is only a few inches long.


Boil a Quart of Water in a Saucepan with a Lid....remove from heat...add four or five Tablesoons of common Salt...stirr, and, it should dissolve promptly.


Once cooled to about body temp or a little cooler, pour some into a smaller size clean Glass or Teacup, and, to this, add enough of whatever Antibiotic is handy for say, a week's worth of oral regimen, though this will be used topically, and not orally. Stirr...dissolve completely.


Open the dead skin 'Bubble' with anything safe to use with good control, some clean Cuticle Scizzors maybe, and, with the Syringe Catheter, draw up 10 Ml of the Saline, and, sluice out under the Bubble with the tepid Saline Water...repeat a couple more times, and, if possible, remove enough of the 'Bubble' to also clean out any loose debris, spoiled Seeds or other gunk...but only gently remove what is loose...if anything is sticking, leave it be for now.


After Saline sluicing, sluice then with the Antibiotic Saline Solution, and, leave it wet with that, covering the area with a light folded Gause square, Taped on with a Tape kind which allows easy-enough removal.


Wait a few hours, and, slather the area then with the 'Silver Sulfadiazine' Ointment, and, again, cover with a clean folded Gause square, taped on.


This will do well for the situatuation, and, gentle sluicing and debriding repeated again the next day, and or untill all the debris is gone. With the Silver Ointment applied liberally every other day, to keep the 'naked' Healing area moist and soothed and infection free.


The dead tissue will harden, shrink and fall off, once new Tissue displaces it, so leave it be, and be patient...it may be weeks before it falls off.


Thats the basic outline of the drill.


He's a beautiful Pigeon, and no doubt will be willing to put up with these fussings.

Of course, have someone else hold him gently, Legs 'back' under his Tail, held gently that way, and angled so you can positively get to his injury places ( but not upside down ) , to make your efforts easier....maybe do the ministerings/fussings in periods where he has not recently ate or drank.


Do these things...and, he should come through this fine.



Phil
Lv


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Mindy said:


> Set a time, lets say 5 days and if it doesn't show any improvement then consider the other option.


The problem with setting a time limit is that some injuries and illnesses can take longer than that to heal.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Quite 'so' jenfer...


This wound will take a while...weeks...five or six weeks...

Nothing wrong with that, it is a serious large wound or wounds, and, it takes what it takes time and care wise, to have it's healing process supported and promoted.


Bird is happy to be safe and cared for...the attentions for ministering to his recovery as I outlined, are forthright and not hard on the Bird's comfort, in fact, with these attentions, he'll be feeling a lot better inside and out very fast...especially as one gently clean, sluice, and eradicate his local, and mild systemic infection issues.

Takes time to grow back large areas of damaged-missing outer tissue...and, he will gladly do so if provided the care and attentions which promote the recovery process.

Crops and Crop outer Skin are famous for amazing re-generations once infection and debris are alleviated...and, with the "Silver Sulfadiazine", there could very well be no significant scarring as legacy at all.


So, do not be discouraged or put off by any Nay-Sayers.


Done halfway 'right', and, this Pigeon will respond very nicely by healing well and happily.


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello Reti I have phoned Nooti and asked her to look at this thread.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Hello Everyone, I just got out of the Vet's office and she said Paloma's prognosis is not good even with surgery. The Dr. writes "We could attempt to surgically remove all of the dead tissue and close the wounds with sutures, however the amount of tissue damage is extensive, and it is unlikely that there will be enough normal tissue remaining to close the wound or esophagus/ crop region. Human euthanasia is recommended." I am very sad about this prognosis, I do not want Paloma to die, but I really do not know what to do. Dr. says if I take her home the infection will continue to spread and it will eventually attack vital organs. Right now the smell is very strong...Any thoughts?


Time for the Nooti and Josefina story again! 

*The injury was to her crop which had been torn open and the vet team had stitched it up.

It looked to be a good job at first glance but a few days later as Laura, (my vet) and I were examining her, the stitched wound just fell apart and the most awful rotting smell filled our nostrils.

It seemed that the original vet team had stitiched up the outer skin - but not the crop lining, so as she had been eating seed it had slipped through the hole in the crop lining and lodged between the lining and the outer epidermis. (skin)

The resulting mess was horrifying as tissue became infected and died. Laura pulled a stinking, necrotic plug out of the wound which measured an inch across and tapered to 2 inches long. You could see right through into both chambers of the crop. She had never seen anything so bad before and her first thought was to put Josephine to sleep.

However I asked if there was any way we could try to heal this and Laura's thinking cap came up with the idea that we would put her on nil by mouth and inject fluids IP twice a day to maintain the major organs. Also inject antibiotics daily as close to the wound as possible, and flush the crop twice daily with saline and Metronidazole. An assessment for surgery to finally close the wound would be made in 4 days time.

This method was so successful that by the time the day came for surgery the wound had healed so well that three quarters of it had closed by itself. So we put surgery on hold - in fact it never went ahead and a week after we nearly euthanased her she was well enough to start taking food and drink by mouth again.
Now she is a fine healthy pidge - only her crop capacity is slightly compromised, that's all. *


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Folks, well everyone seems to be waiting for my reply......... Had a good look at this thread and the pictures, and have to agree with most of the advice given on here, and I certainly agree with Phil, this is not going to be a quick fix.
Only working on the pictures, without examining this bird, everything seems very muddled, but I took a step backwards and asked myself, what would I do if this bird was in my care? 
I have seen many hopeless cases, Josephina included and in most of those so called hopeless cases I have done nothing but give antibiotics and left everything else alone to heal as nature would like to if given the chance. Lumpy, aka Nameless, Anon, whatever, the last bird I treated, I did exactly that. He is now a fighting fit, fully recovered bird living with my own pigeons. Yet he looked a mess in the pictures posted on here. 
If you fight off infection with antibiotics, necrotic tissue should drop off on its own. 
If you fight off infection, new tissue will grow back. However it does need an open edge in order to do so, and I do see some 'finished edges' around the crop area which may or may not reproduce new granulating cell tissue.
If the bird was in my care I would give metronidazole for at least 2 weeks more if needed, and leave everything else to nature. Is the bird eating on its own? If so, then I see no need to to do anything but give Metro and occasional supportive care.... in my opinion. But I have not examined him and as such could have missed something vital.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I was just saying give it more time at least 5 more days to see if the bird is still has a spark in his eye and you can see that he still wants to fight to live. I realize the wounds are going to take weeks to heal. I REALLY think she should try as long as it takes. I also sent the syringes so she has some of that also. I hope she comes back on and says she is going to give him a chance to live. min


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Don't worry Mindy, I took your post as more of, let's not do anything rash here, let's give the bird some more time, get her started on some meds and let's see if we can get an inkling of what direction she is heading, than a fixed 5 day limit. You did good, you got the meds and syringes sent out which means a lot.

Karyn


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

*Update about Paloma*

Hi everybody, as you all know I took Paloma yesterday to the Capital Veterinary Emergency Center and the Veterinarian that looked at him told me one of two things can happen. They can perform surgery and start antibiotics with no guarantee of success, which would cost $700 to $800 or, what the vet suggested, humane euthanasia, but while I was there one of the vet tech suggested that I could take Paloma to the Ohio Wildlife Center (http://www.ohiowildlifecenter.org/) here in Columbus, so I did because I felt that at home and with no medicine Paloma was going to die regardless of all my attempts to care for him. The volunteer that was there appeared very optimistic and felt that with Paloma's general alertness and movement he is strong and had a good chance of making it, she assured me that they would do everything within their reach to care for him and then proceeded to take him upstairs to have their vet check him. Today a have called a few times to check on him and was not able to get an specific answer because as they explained to me being a non profit organization they have a few different volunteers working there and it was difficult for everybody there to keep track of every case and give information right away, so I called a few more times during the day, as a matter of fact I called just a few minutes ago (I was somewhat scalded for calling and possibly holding up one of their emergency lines) to check on Paloma and there was a new Vet tech volunteer that was able to give some solid information, she told me that his infection was pretty severe and they have him on a high dose of antibiotics. I forgot to ask what kind. They also removed most of the dead skin and sutured the wound up. The tech also said that they have to wait for the antibiotics to kick in and clear up the infection before they can go back in and suture up the crop area better.

Here is the really sad part. The tech believes the wound was from a lit cigarette butt that he ate and not a hawk attack. So I feel even more horrible for him.

The new Vet tech, Lisa, who said she will be overseeing all of his treatment was optimistic. She said that as long as she knows he has a place to go (here, of course) that she will do all she possibly can. The material fees for what they will use in surgery, medicine, and whatnot will be around $150 (a lot better than the $700 or so at the vet's office)

They are going to call on Thursday to let me know how he is doing. But I think I'm going to stop by tomorrow and see what else I can find out. Until then, I do not have any new photos, just a scan of the Vet's prognosis....

Thanks for everyone who has commented and given me support and advice through all of this.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for the update. A lit cigarette, amazing. Glad she is getting the care that she needs. After they are done, you get the paloma back right? Can't wait to hear from you after you visit with them tomorrow. Please do keep us updated. Did you get the medicine today? You will definitely get it tomorrow if not. Even if you don't need it now, you always need to keep medicine on hand when you have pet pigeons. So keep it in a dry safe, cool place. And if you decide you don't need it, don't throw it away, you can always send it back to me. Thank you. min


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi karakositas,



Ohhhhhh golly...no way would a lit Cigarette be eaten, let alone, burn the interior of a Crop through the outer skin also, so as to produce the injuries seen.


Maybe, remotely possible, a starving fledgling m-i-g-h-t try pecking a Cigarette Butt then spit it out instantly when unlit, and, spit it out even faster if it was lit...but not an Adult, experienced Pigeon.


This assumes it would be very short non-filter Cigarette Butt, which by now, by 2010, would probably be not even be one in a million.

The length of a usual filtered Cigarette, to include the Butt of actual Cigarette-part, is astronomically improbable for any PIgeonj to have any interest to try and eat...even a Dumpster PIgeon who has never seen a Seed, would not do it.

I hate to say it, but, this Pigeon needed one ( "1" ) dedicated person to keep him logistically close and able to be attended to a couple times a day, to be involved enough to do the basic forthright things needed, and to oversee various details for his recovery to be supported.

The attentions he needs, for now, would be a couple fifteen minute sessions, followed by a ten minute session every other day.

Hardly enough to cut into one's day.


But...

Dropping off to a Wildlife Center, who is short on help, has incompetent help, and has almost certainly zero reason or interest to apportion the INTEREST, followed by the time, personel or attention to detail this Bird needs, when seeing that the injury looks like a hassle, is very likely just as good as euthenasia, only in this case, they give you some patronizing cover story, which is their usual PR for any 'drop off' to send naive walk-ins on their way.


Sorry to hear.


Which is what would happen with virtually every so called Wild Life Center or busy State or Federal Licenced Rehabber I have ever spoken with, once they were candid about 'reality', and dropping the jive used on naive well-intended walk ins.

They are just no into stuff like this unless it is a 'heavy' protected or endangered Species, where, if 'successful', they can then put into their portfolio or Newsletter, for future funding strategy.


Even if they have nothing else to do, they would rather be doing something else than dealing with this presentation.


Sad...


Phil
Lv


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ah Phil...that's lot to assume on your part. Wonder what the staff at the wild care would take issue with your comments especially since you have never personally met them or even been there.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, to tell you the truth, when I read about the lit cigarette butt statement (earlier in the day before Phil's post), I wondered to myself, what kind of wildlife place is this? I agree with Phil, there ain't no way in he** an adult bird, is going to eat a lit cigarette butt, and if in some twilight zone world it did, how on earth could someone make such a definitive statement weeks after the fact that this was the cause. What would the residual evidence be for a lit butt causing this large gash? I'm sorry, this is just beyond ridiculous. After such a statement and with his long and detailed posts on a course of treatment, I can certainly see why Phil would be frustrated.

Karicositas, you tried and you did your best with a difficult case, and without any prior experience or knowledge to rely on, when people who are supposed to be experts tell you things the tendency is to put faith in their statements and believe them. Let's do hope they do really try for him/her and and that one person's misstatement of a diagnosis of cause is not reflective of the whole organization.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> Ah Phil...that's lot to assume on your part. Wonder what the staff at the wild care would take issue with your comments especially since you have never personally met them or even been there.



No.


It is a lot to assume that it would be any better, or any different, than I described.


The seemy or distasteful 'reality' of a place, any place, regardless of what their mission statement or ostensible front room decor is, is not going to be described or admitted to an outsider by 'staff' or a receptionist or other Charis, anywhere, ever...unless somehow you become an 'insider' or are in a position for them to have candor.


Were you born yesterday?



Lol...


Anyway...


If they have not wrung the Pigeon's Neck yet, and, if kericositas were willing, interested, and were to get the Pigeon back...( "a.s.a.p." )

I would be glad to guide, hand-hold, advise, talk-on-the-telephone, and be available every day, from here on, to over see and give moral support and meds, for the treatment and regimen.

There is not that much to what this Bird needs...though I understand it may seem intimidating to someone if they are inexperienced.

Broken down into basic steps, any sensitive person over the age of say, 8, with basic motor skills, and a good attitude, could do what needs to be done.

I doubt the entire regimin fromm here to release would require more than a few cumulative hours, far as personal time involvement kind of "time" is concerned...most of which needs to be now and over the next few days, then, mostly coasting easy with little fussing needed for the remaining weeks.

It's just little time-blocks, fifteen minutes here, fifteen there, ten here, ten there...then coasting...no big deal.


Just needs to be done the way it needs to be done, and, trouble is, very very few people, regardless of the shingle on the door, will have had any constructive, successful experience with what this wound, this Pigeon, requires.




It's just that way...


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Thats one blessed pigeon atleast for the care he is getting now. Hope he will be soon recover and will be another hero amongst all our pigeons 

The lit cigarette is interesting, also how the conclusion was arrived in differentiating from the current wound stage whether it was due to a lit cigarette or hawk attack. If for sure the injury is due to a lit cigarette, then there was only one chance, a pigeon cruelity case where a human deliberately did the horrifying act.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Seems like a good point Sreeshs made there, if a 'dog end' was actually part of the problem at all, though it's unlikely that will ever be determined anyway.

John


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

I also agree with Sreesh, I think that would be the only way a pigeon would eat a lit cigarette. Lets wait to hear from Kari after she goes and see if the pigeon is actually still alive instead of jumping to conclusion that they just put it to sleep. I didn't like the last sentence of the report that she made a copy of and posted. It says being sent to the Wildlife center for euthanasia. I don't blame Kari for taking it to the center, they probably gave her some hope on the phone and being "new" with pigeons she was being hopefully that they could do a better job than herself. I really hope the pigeon is alive. If not, she learned a lesson the hardway like a lot us have learned. 
Kari if you can get the pigeon back, and if you follow what a lot of experienced pigeon owners have adviced you to do, I would do that. min


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Kari if you can get the pigeon back, and if you follow what a lot of experienced pigeon owners have adviced you to do, I would do that.


I agree that that is the best course of action.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I believe the report is from the first place the pigeon was taken, and Kari then took it to another place which held out a little more hope (?)

John


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The cuts in the original pictures look way the heck and gone too much like slashes to have been caused by rot from the inside. This is one of the rare occasions where we can all end up taking sides against each other over the vagaries of origin and the varieties of treatment with which to go forth. I'm just not in the mood for a knockdown, dragout fight today. Here's a real thread with a bird that likely suffered crop burns due to poor Kaytee-feeding techniques :

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/water-in-the-lungs-and-other-problems-11379.html

That's a hard story to remember but is good for reference here under the circumstances. It's one of those deals where you just know in your heart as a rehabber that you could have saved the bird if you'd had it in hand. And others will believe just as strongly that only a vet could have done it. Life's just a lot messier than that, however. It's the conflict of our personal beliefs that get us into some of the fights that we've had over these deals because of the strong emotions that occur. That we get so emotionally involved is testament to our love for pigeons on the good side and our egos on the bad side. Anyhow, at this point, it looks like for good or for ill, the bird is in the hands of another rehabbing facility that at least has access to antibiotics. Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

I will be visiting the Wildlife center today to make sure Paloma is receiving the care I feel is acceptable. They are far better equipped that I am.

Just as a side note, this center is ran by Veterinarians. It is voluntary and in order to make any interaction with the animals or treat, you have to be properly trained. Although I do not agree with this individual's "diagnosis", it truly doesn't matter. Getting the help and care Paloma needs, is what counts.

I agree about the cigarette theory. Although, not out of the realm of possibility, I too believe it is a bit impossible. I was simply passing along comments and felt the need to keep everyone here informed, with such great interest in the thread.

I would like to keep everyone posted on this matter and I would like to respectfully ask that you keep your negative judgments and criticisms. 

I understand that everyone here has strong feelings towards Paloma's welfare, as do I, and it is so very appreciated. Thank you to everyone who has posted help and instructions on how to care, it has been invaluable.

On my way to the Wildlife center now. I will post this evening as to what I have found out.

Thank you to everyone


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> The cuts in the original pictures look way the heck and gone too much like slashes to have been caused by rot from the inside. This is one of the rare occasions where we can all end up taking sides against each other over the vagaries of origin and the varieties of treatment with which to go forth. I'm just not in the mood for a knockdown, dragout fight today. Here's a real thread with a bird that likely suffered crop burns due to poor Kaytee-feeding techniques :
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/water-in-the-lungs-and-other-problems-11379.html
> 
> ...



I believe that *you, Pidgey and a select few other members *could have done exactly that. It's far different situation when such a very injured bird is in the care of someone without your experience, confidence or the medications you have available.
In no way do I want this interpreted as a criticism of Kari's efforts, because it's not that at all and I commend her for all she did.
In a situation like this, antibiotic for the get go is critical. 
With all of the expert help form us...us, all over the world and not actually being able to see the bird, touch it, look it over...it's very difficult to give complete advise.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kari,

I think it's positive that, based on what the rehab facility told you, they are giving this bird every chance to recover and are willing to give her back to you should she turn out to be unreleaseable. Many rehab centers would not attempt treatment at all, so I do think it's commendable that they are making the effort. It's also positive (in my view) that the center is overseen by vets. Again, many rehab facilities aren't.

The obvious drawback to turning over a bird to someone else is that decisions about euthanasia are taken out of your hands. That's one reason to start to learn enough so that you can rehab on your own. 

Jennifer


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Kari, I don't think anyone meant to offend you and all of us appreciate what you have done for paloma. Its just that most of us have had bad experience's with people that just want to take the easy way out and just put to sleep rather than go to the trouble and helping "just a pigeon". Please let us know how the visit went and how paloma is doing. Also did you receive my package today? min


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

*Wildlife Center visit*

Well, I can positively say that they really care about Paloma and it is not just "another pigeon" to them... (after yesterday's posts I had my doubts). The one "bubble" have been taken care of and the wound that we initially discussed about looks much better, the vet is going to check the other "bubble" again tomorrow and make a decision on what route he's going to take treatment wise, of course Paloma is still on antibiotics and eating on her own. They let me take some photos with my cellphone (they may not be too clear) so please look at them and share your thoughts with all of us... 

Thank you so much for your time and dedication...

Mindy: I got the medicine today (thanks again) I am going to keep it for a couple of days in case I bring Paloma back home to continue the treatment, otherwise I would be more than happy to mail them back to you)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Karicositas, thanks for the positive update. As Mindy said, the thoughts expressed earlier where in no way meant to reflect on your care or concern for Paloma, just true concern for Paloma's well being at the place she was at.

With this update, I think that you will have eased the minds of many here and I will leave it up to people with more wound management experience to comment on the photos, but I know for me the feeling of trepidation I felt when opening your latest comment was quickly set aside with a feeling of happiness that Paloma was alive and being well looked after.

You are doing a great job advocating for her,

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great up date. I admire you so very much for going back and checking on Palona. I know you love him very much and your actions, all along, have shown nothing less.

You Rock!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When it comes right down to it, there are normally more complications in treating banded birds than you might think. They're actually not considered "wildlife" because they're actually legally considered to be something more akin to "poultry". Generally, the true owner is supposed to be contacted and only if they "allow" a rehabber (or whoever) to treat is it technically allowed. Probably more often than not, the owners don't want the birds back or they don't mind us treating them. I suppose if the bird was actually from some very expensive and famous line, that might be another story, though.

Anyhow, that big bubble will eventually want to detach. Usually, we'd take it out somewhere along the line and then just deal with what's underneath. The bird doesn't look to be overly concerned with it at this point. Somewhere, I've got a picture of a bird that had extremely bad burn to the forward portion of the crop (the portion with very little actual skin covering it) and it had to be worked quite a bit to reconstruct the crop as a whole. Anyhow, in that picture, you see what almost looks like a necropsy picture where the patient had literally been dissected, the only portion of the crop remaining would be the part in the back. Kinda' like cutting a basketball dead in half and looking at the inside. When I read the caption on the picture, I was flabbergasted that the bird was still alive and they were keeping it that way to help the tissues granulate until such time as they were able to bring the edges around and suture it together. It was wild. That was on a parrot or some other companion bird, but it doesn't matter because pigeons are every bit as tough.

Yeah, Charis, I'm basically saying let's all just let those folks do this and not either congratulate or berate each other for however it turns out this time. In these situations, we've often historically started the posturing and then sometimes let loose with both barrels on the occasions when things didn't turn out so well. And you and I are just as guilty as anyone else we might name. I don't know about you, but I'm getting too old for this... stuff!

Pidgey


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks for the good news


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Kari, If you are getting the bird back you will need to keep the medicine on hand. You never know if he might get a canker and will need the Flagyl for treatment. Thanks for the photo and the update you have eased everyone's mind and gave everyone a smile.

As far as the original owner of the bird, I believe if they really were concerned for there bird they would have posted on here, "missing banded bird XYZ number". I know I would have if it was my bird. But I'm sure others would say something different about that. In most cases with racing birds the owners are contacted and every case on here that I have I seen the birds would have been destroyed if returned to the owners. But unfortunately there is an ol' saying " No good deed goes unpunished". I have never liked that saying. min


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

That is a wonderful update. 

Reti


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Mindy said:


> As far as the original owner of the bird, I believe if they really were concerned for there bird they would have posted on here, "missing banded bird XYZ number". I know I would have if it was my bird. But I'm sure others would say something different about that. In most cases with racing birds the owners are contacted and every case on here that I have I seen the birds would have been destroyed if returned to the owners. But unfortunately there is an ol' saying " No good deed goes unpunished". I have never liked that saying. min


Mindy, I'm sure not ALL people who own homers even know about Pigeon Talk, so wouldn't have been able to post about a missing bird. And just to give these people some credit, there are people out there who have homers, who do care about their birds and would want them back. They are not all uncaring people who would destroy the bird. Every one is different.


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Whatever, that is my opinion. I know there are caring people, Mr. Kurps is one of them. He posted missing bird number XYZ and is asking for help. Generally speaking with my experience and from what I have been reading on here that is how I came up with my opinion.


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## Whitedove06 (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi all- I've been following this thread...glad to hear the positive news on Paloma's condition
wonderful to have such caring pigeon people around.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I am so glad to reasd of these good developments!


I had been afraid to even revisit the thread.


Very glad the Wildlife place was far above the usual.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Kari, can you give us an update, please, when you have some time?

Reti


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Hello everybody, I am very please to say that Paloma is still doing good. The vet decided to remove the rest of the necrotic tissue on Friday, after that the had her on an incubator, but when my husband and I visited on Saturday she was back on her cage, they did not wantend to stress her out so I only saw her from a distance... I will visit her again tomorrow and will post another update then.
Thank you for caring!


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## karicositas (Feb 14, 2010)

Hello everybody, I am very please to say that Paloma is still doing good. The vet decided to remove the rest of the necrotic tissue on Friday, after that the had her on an incubator, but when my husband and I visited on Saturday she was back on her cage, they did not wantend to stress her out so I only saw her from a distance... I will visit her again tomorrow and will post another update then.
Thank you for caring!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the update. Hope she is improving.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank you for the update. That really is wonderful news.


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## PigeonQueen (Aug 13, 2006)

Hello, yes it is good to hear your positive news. I am so happy to think the piggie will make a good recovery. Please keep us informed. Jayne


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## Mindy (Apr 2, 2009)

Kari, that is good news, and please do keep us posted on her well being. Thanks for caring about paloma. I grew up near a town named Paloma, IL. min


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