# --> Young&Awkward pigeon found, need help!



## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I appologize for being blunt and clumbsy with this post, I'm tired but this birdy needs help. I found... him(some purple-y colouring on his neck) huddled against the front door of a restaurant on my way home from work. He attempted to fly but the middle tail feathers are gone, which may be the reason he couldn't fly well/straight. He ended up in traffic a few times and its a miracle he didn't get flattened right then and there. Because of all these reasons, I decided it would be best to take him in and see that he gets help.


I've estimated its age at nearly 1mo because there's no baby down, and the feathers around its beak are just coming in, a lot of it is still in casings.

It seems to have a head tilt, favouring the right eye(the other one looks fine)

I've spent the past few hours researching and the bird is lying down on towels in a makeshift box-cage, I made a rice heating pad and looped it on either side of him. He's alive and has pooped a bit, but is currently in shock, which worries me tremendously. When I was first holding him while figuring out what to do, his heartbeat seemed to calm down and he was looking around, half closing his eyes at times,.. but now his eyes are just glazed, again, probably stunned,.. I'm just concerned.

I just really want to see this guy survive the night and eventually be released/brought to a more savvy caretaker where he'll have lots of other pigeons to socialize with.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBisquit,



What do the so-far 'poops' look like?

Are they 'solid' like what you could pick up in finger tips?

Liquid? In-between? Colors?


His may have escaped a Dog or Cat attack ( missing Tail Feathers )...


Where are you located?


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

the poop is half dark, half white with a thick cream-like consistency.

I have the towel fluffed in a semi-circle and he's just laying on his right side, one leg pushed out and eyes still wide open.

Should I keep re-heating the rice heat bag, or will the constant fussing make him more stressed? I'm concerned that he'll kill himself from the stress...

I'm located in downtown Toronto, so a predator could be a possibility.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just be slow and gentle in whatever you do with him...they manage 'stress' quite well.


Offer him some body-temperature Water in a low Cup...just gently guide his Beak into it with your finger tips on his Beak...with the surface of the Water being about mid high to his Body front area.

He will recognise this as a friendly gesture, as well as he might be thirsty.


Can you post an image of him?


How many poops in how many hours, so far?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

guiding his beak to the water proved difficult. He's still leaning quite a bit to the side and isn't too interested in the dish, however, I did dab drops of water on his beak with my finger and he opened and closed his beak in what could have been an attempt to drink it? I moved the water dish in front of him, more accessible. He really is keeping his head leaned to one side though.

I'll venture and guess approx a poop an hour, though to be honest I wasn't keeping track. 

I took a couple of pictures, and will post them asap, I just didn't want to slow the dialogue...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okeydoke...well, at least we may suppose he has not been starving.


Is his little Butt area clean, no poops stuck or smeared in the Feathers there?


He may have gotten hurt.

He mau have had his Legs sprained or strained or in pain to where laying down is a way of trying to be comfortable ( since usually they prefer to stand )...and or he is maybe plum tired, also.


At his age ( if indeed post-fledgling, pre-youg adult ) and being injured or ill or both, he may refuse Water unless it is close to Body Temperature.


Pigeons are Granivores...they eat small whole Seeds.


Can you round up some small whole Seeds sometime soon, maybe tomorrow?


Canary or Finch Seed mix should be fine.


Birds who have escaped a predation attempt may be injured, sore, strained, and so on...may also have Cat or Dog eye-Tooth bites and punctures.


Bites from either, and Cat's Claws also, typically contain bacteria, where, even if no injuries are detected, the Claw tips in punctering the Bird's skin, introduce Bacteria to the Bloodstream which can cause a systemic infection in the Bird. If the Bird gets the infection, there will be no signs, other thaan on or by day three, the Bird starts to look a little wilty, and, on or by day four, dies.

Day three is often too late for the meds to save them.

For this reason, one usually put any predation-escape suspect Birds on an antibiotic regimen, a.s.a.p.

Are there any Pet stores near you where you might be able to get both some Seeds, and, some Medicines?

Or, do you have a friendly Vet?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Here you can see a bit of his poop, he's leaning against the towels, and his one leg is pushing against the other side. Earlier both legs were spread out, but he tucked one in when I touched it.

There's poop on his tail feathers because he's been lying down, but nothing stuck in his bum area.

Earlier he was gripping my fingers when quazi-pearching on it,..who knows

I have pet rats and have an untouched seed bell that I can crumble up until I go to the pet store tomorrow, so seeds won't be a problem, but I'm not sure about antibiotics, could you give me more information?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Image does not appear to be happening.


Cipro/Baytril/Enroflaxyn...( these are practically the same ).

Maybe Clavamox or it's other names.


These would be what are usually used.


I am not in the front of the class on what else might be good, or with what degree of efficacy, I will ask someone.


I just have been using the Enfoflaxyn for so long now for these, I forgot the other candidates.


Anyway, the standing you describe, is typical of an injured Leg, and wanting to 'lean'.


What does 'spread out' mean? ( Legs )


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Seed Bell'...only if no rats have touched it...they usually carry various Salmonella strains, which, while harmless to them, can do in a Bird.


Many things Birds can get from Rodents...virtually nothing a Rodent can get from a Bird...just so you know.


I myself had a Rat who wandered in here one night...( White and Black colors ) sweetest Creature anyone could ever want to meet...very intelligent, clean, gentle, sociable. I had him set up on a table with a large well furnished Cage for years. Cage door was always open, he never left the Table Top.

He made wonderful Tunnels and arranges in his cage, and, would regard the Table as his front and back Yards.

I shared whatever foods I was having with him ( but for some I knew one should not, like Chocolate or Avacado or Candys ) and he was healthy as a Horse.

Some people I knew who supposedly knew about Rats, said he was old when I first got him...and, five years later, one day out of the blue, he passed away with no sign of any thing having been amiss.

I sure liked him, and have missed him. He was always a pleasure. Always a real gentlemen in his way.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

darn, I thought linking from my email would work. 
Would the medications have dosing instructions on them, or is there a site I can reference?

wrong wording, I just meant that he has his legs stretched out in front of him, pushing against the towel 'nest' and leaning his body against the other 'wall'. 

He now has food and water within easy reach, I hope I can find the meds tomorrow so he can feel comfortable enough to move,...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)




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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Post images on any free site, 'fotki', 'webshots', like that...then elect a hot link code to put here in your post.

Legs pushing forward is same ballpark, he's been hurt.


Some borad spectrum Antibiotic anyway...would be the idea, if ( and missing Tails usually suggest ) a predation escape had occurred.


I just don't know what they would carry, but, maybe ask a Manager for whatever is their best broad spectrum one for say 'Cat Bites' on a Bird.


Let us know what you get, and someone here can work out the dose and administration with you.


If he is sort of pushing himself 'back' with his Legs, he might not be able to eat or drink unless the food and water are elevated and in front of him literally inches from his Beak.


That posture, if I am understanding you right, is something one sees with Birds who have hit Windows.

In urban areas, a Bird who hits a Window can also then be mauled by a Cat, of course...and, sometimes this is what happens, too.


You can maybe place some rumpled cloths at his sides, with him having his Tail in a corner, so the cloths sort of help him maintain the possture well enough, for him to eat or drink if he wants to.

This is what it is like sometimes...one has to fuss with things for particular conditions.

A disused Shoe Box or similar, set with it's open side to him, might be able to support the food and water bowls...shallow Bowls like Custard Cups would be fine, long as the Water Bowl is an Inch and no less deep.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ooopse! Your image appeared while I was composing.


I am fading here, been a long day.


So...see what you can do to adjust the cloths and so on, for him to be comfortable, and, once lights are out, he can sleep all he likes till morning.


I will check back in the morning also.

Is his left Wing missing any long Feathers? ( I can not tell in the image)


How much of the Tail Feathers are missing?


Maybe some poop image close ups?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

update: can all these new feathers be hurting him? a lot of his chest feathers still have casings closer to the skin. My nails are really short right now and i'm not sure how i could preen him,...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

update: having trouble seeing his tail situation. it looks like he has a few starting to grow, still in casings...... tons everywhere making me think he's a runt?

........he also had a super healthy dump on my lap....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...another image, showing his Face, forehead area?

...and, image of the 'dump', or other recent poops?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...I gotta hit the hay.

See you tomorrow.

We will need to continue to go through various things to try and get a sense of what is going on with this lovely Pigeon...so far so good.

If Tail Feathers that are missing, are old 'missing' ones already growing back, this would suggest some event in weeks past, and, not an immediately past, possible predation escape...so...we'll see...he survived somehting apparently some time ago...so still figure to obtain a good broad spectrum Antibiotic...could be whatever he survived, left him with a lingering issue which had finally slowed him down.

Although actually, I think this is a Hen, and not a 'he'...




Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

heres the top of the head, i'm going to have a few hours sleep before the pet store opens.

theres lots of feathers with significant chunks of casing on them,,,


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

good night and thank you for your help!


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

update:
He's still crumpled up,'shoulders' raised tense, lying on his side, one leg out. I helped him take a few gulps of water that i disolved a bit of sugar in. He also had one or two more poops.

I'm heading out the door for broad-spectrum antibiotics, I'm concerned about the lack of food/water, also for pain management.

Like i said, lots of pin feathers, a few large feathers just starting to push through on the tail, which may be why he's fussy if touched near it.

Will continue to update, help and comments *greatly* appreciated, this is my first rescue..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Given the details so far, all those Feathers comining in...seems like their health had been good oe good enough to be growing quite a few new Feathers anyway, but, something has laid them low.

Image of the recent poops?


Also, if you would, lay a towel on your Lap, and, set the Pigeon there, and very carefully examine them visually, and, also by feel, using the pads of your finger tips. You will be looking for any clues of injury including ones which might be hiding under their Feathers, and, for any sort of small bumps, little scabs, anything. These can be hard to find, and can be small.

What we are calling 'poop' is actually fecal matter, being usually greenish-brown...and urates, which would be the white paste.

Is there any 'yellow' to the white paste component? ( Might need to be looked at in natural Light).


Anyway, this appears to be a younger adult, who would know how to eat and drink on their own.


Since they have been pooping, they have been eating till shortly before you found them.


They are probably feeling scared and nervious.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

no antibiotics at the pet store, was given the number for a nearby animal hospital, will call.

more fecals'n'urates:









as s/he is on my lap right now:









proceeding to check for injuries...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Are the 'stringy' light colored urate parts seen with the fecal matter...are they 'yellow'-ish in color?

I am kind of suspecting a Liver and or Kidney infection.

Rescue Centers, rehab centers, Vets, Wild Life rehab places, and so on, would usually euthenize any Bird left with them who looks like it may require anything meaningful for care or recovery, or, any whom they suspect would require long term care, even if easy.

If you consult anyone, make sure to state this is "your" rescue, and, you intend to take care of them and are only asking their opinions and or for their input and expertise ( and not trying to drop it in their lap).


Be advised on that.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

no, the urates are quite white in color...

the more I check, the more I find that even the fully grown feathers still have at least 1/3 if not more of their casing still on, is this something I should address?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

ok, i havent found any injuries, the wings seem fine and pretty full plumage, but s/he keeps pulling them close to the body.

s/he gets a little alarmed when I try to examine the tail/back end, I think it might be because of the significant amount of new feathers coming in.

is there any way I can feed her? I'm worried about not having enough food for strength....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

No...no address of any Feather shafts is needed...you can leave those alone.


However, they do raise the question of how come the Bird had not been preening more.


Urates kind of hint at a possible Liver or Kidney infection anyway...their manner of accompanying the fecal material ( since both are deposited or expelled at once ) is not 'right' or not a usual appearance.

But, lots of things can do that which are routine changes in their systems, Hormones, change of diet, on and on...so...


How about this - once done with your 'exam', set them onto the floor, and see how they stand. Just set them there and back off a ways and observe them. Doi they just stand there? Do they trot away? Do they turn and look around much? Etc.


If they appear to stand normally, crouch down low behind them, and, gently grasp their tail, letting it go if they wish to pull away...and let us know if they pull away, and, if they seem strong in the pulling, and balanced...and if they flap their Wings in doing so.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> ok, i havent found any injuries, the wings seem fine and pretty full plumage, but s/he keeps pulling them close to the body.
> 
> s/he gets a little alarmed when I try to examine the tail/back end, I think it might be because of the significant amount of new feathers coming in.
> 
> is there any way I can feed her? I'm worried about not having enough food for strength....



We need to see about various things first...then, we need to see if for being presented with Seed kinds a Pigeon would usually wish to eat, if she will eat on her own.

Please consider to obtain some Bird Seed, small whole Seeds or a Seed Mix for Birds. Canary or Finch Seed mix would be fine, Dove and Quail Mix would be fine...actual Pigeon Mix would be fine.

Seed Bell Seeds dislodges, not so good.



She is pooping, so, she has not starved or suffered privations...so no worries about needing to feed her for now.

Her underneath area at the rear...the part just forward of her Vent ( where the poops and urates are expelled) could be called her 'Tummy'.

Tummy should feel soft to one's finger tips.

Does it feel soft? Soft, meaning it pushes in easily with light finger tip pressure.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

when i found her she was walking and somewhat flying(not well because of the missing feathers), but now she doesn't stand, prefers lying down on her side. when i hold her upright to place on the ground, she seems to panic. she favours the right eye so she cranks her head completely to the side, flicks her tail, but won't put her feet on the ground... she seems weak? physically things seem in place...

gonna check the tummy now...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

called the vet hospital, they will prescribe antibiotics after a checkup. they're booked full today and monday would be the first chance to have her looked at

back to the tummy check...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

alright, tummy feels soft(area below rib cage)


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

i dont think she has head coordination to eat, if that makes sense,...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

If, I had to guess, with the fair amount of droppings produced, stiff body posture, paralysis and this bird being young and in no condition at all it seems to self feed, perhaps some kind of poisoning brought on by a parent feeding poisoned food. May be something completely different, but this was my first thought when I read the thread, may be predation wounds to deal with as well now. Drugs good for this are Amoxicillin, Keflex, Cipro, and Trimethoprim-Sulfa/aka/Sulfatrim, Septra or Bactrim. The last one, TMS, is a sulfonamide based med and you can pick up a an over-the-counter sulfonanide med like this: http://www.pet-discount-supply.com/birds/marvel_aid_antibiotic-eid304.htm , at most pet stores if you can't get a hold of the prescription kind.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Her Feathers are perfectly adequate for good flying.


If I had to guess...my guess is leaning to some sort of blunt global trama...maybe was hit by a Car windshield, hit a window of a Building.


Or...she might have a Virus, which she was managing along with till now, and, then had a mis-hap of flying into a window or something...or, merely that Virus was making more difficult challenges for her.


Originally, hearing of 'Missing Feathers' on the Tail, I lept to 'predation', but that was before you had further described things.

Do you have an electric Heating Pad?


Also...her Box - if it is a regular cardboard Box...cut holes large enough for her to see out, and have them at her eye level.

Have the Box on a Table top or on something no less than elbow height.


Allow the Box top to be open...drape with some sheer cloth so Light filters in.


If you have a Heating Pad, elect a Box with a large enough bottom, for the Pad to be laid into it, cord going out through a hole you can cut...so the Box Bottom is part Heating Pad, and, part not heating pad...cover all with a Towel...set heat control for a temp ( once warmed up for fifteen or twenty minutes ) for a temp which feels only slightly warm to your skin if you press the underside of your wrist against it firmly and hold it there for a few seconds.


This appears to be an Adult, who would have been on their won for some while, eating and drinking on their own.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I may have to be away from the Computer a while.


So in the mean time...get some regular small size whole Seeds Bird Seed.


Being very slow and gently with her...especially in how you pick her up or handle her...make sure any picking up or handling allows her to maintain a normal poise same as if she was standing.

Pick her up from below, slipping your fingers under her Body, and letting her Legs dangle.

No 'Legs in hand' picking up or she will struggle and wriggle or resent it.

Sit down, with a Towl draped over your thighs, set her there, in the furrow, facing you, and lay a smaller light towel over her, so it is open where her Head is, while extending past or over her Head a little. Rumple either towel as need be to provide support from her sides, if she seems to need it.


Set a small bowl of Seeds in front of her so she is in effect, in a Towel Cave, with the Seeds and her Head just barely in the open end. Seeds immediately under her Beak and a couple inches down.


If she tries pecking, see if her head is wobbley or ineffecient however so.

If it is, softly cup your hand over her Head, limiting it's possible motion, and or also elevate the Seed Bowl, so her Head only has to move a little to be pecking...experiment with this, steadying her head if need be against any excessive sideways motions...and, in various patient ways with this, see if she is interested to eat.


She is likely very scared...and too scared to think straight...so any picking up make sure you respect her poise and balance and keep her in the same poise as if she was standing, letting her legs dangle through your fingers...

Do everything very slowly, and talk soothingly.

Holding her with her Legs dangling between your fingers, do this from her front, palms up, slip your little fingers under her between her Legs...palms then around her sides gently...this is very secure then, and you can lift or carry her and she will not be so worried. Slow...everything slow.

List her to your own eye level and explain to her what is going on and why, then try the Pal Towel Cave thing with the Seeds.


If they are scared they can refuse to eat...if comforted, they will ease up some, and this would be best of course.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

i dont have a heating pad, hence the makeshift rice bag. would a water bottle be ok? I have a space heater, too, though that would make creating a cooler area difficult,...''i'm looking for places to find meds,.. the nearest petstore only has vitamins...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Use the water bottle, folded small towel on top, place you hand on top of where s/he'll be resting for a while before putting the bird on to gage the amount of heat s/he will be getting, you want nicely warm, not hot at all. Call around, the only problems is because it's over the counter, it's not concentrated at all and more meant for small caged birds, although it will work for for pigeons, as it's meant to be their source of drinking water you will need at least one large 16oz (or a few small ones) bottle to dose the bird over a number of days properly if s/he is self watering.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> i dont have a heating pad, hence the makeshift rice bag. would a water bottle be ok? I have a space heater, too, though that would make creating a cooler area difficult,



No good...no...

Electric Heating Pad is best...if no have, then no big deal...just warmth would be good if you did have one.

Here in Las Vegas anyway, any Drug Store, you can get one for like ten bucks...Thrift stores, used ones, three bucks.




> ...''i'm looking for places to find meds,.. the nearest petstore only has vitamins...



Okay...well...originally I thought this may be a probable predation-escape...but I do not think so now.


So, untill we can figure out more, we would not know what kinds of meds anyway...other than, a good broad spectrum Antibiotic would not hurt, so, if you can find one, consider to get it, since it could be good for any secondary bacterial issues bothering her, even if this is not primarily a bacterial illness situation.

Maybe we have menbers near you, or, you could do mail order.




So far, I think this is a either a Virus, or, Blunt Trauma, or both...for which there would be no meds to use anyway.

Sustained easy to manage Warmth would be good, so, consider to obtain an electric Heating Pad, and to make her 'Box' as described earlier.


I still need replies on my prior Post's questions...so, go back please and review them.




Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I am holding birdie 'upright', but she keeps her head cocked to the side, always right eye facing up.

should i be concerned about her not self feeding/drinking?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil may be right about the nature of the injuries, but if you could feel her crop area and see if you can feel anything like large kernals of corn in it, they will feel like like hard lumps. The crop is about 2 1/2 inches down from the base of the beak at the top of the chest area. Think of it as a defllated ballon, kind's soft and squishy, feel, gently massege that general area for any lumps that move around.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> I am holding birdie 'upright', but she keeps her head cocked to the side, always right eye facing up.
> 
> should i be concerned about her not self feeding/drinking?




Please go back and read my various posts one at a time.


I know this is a lot of info for you.

Take your time, read everything.

Patience...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

-I agree with you regarding head trauma, she was flying clumbsily into walls/doors when i first hound her.

-She doesnt mind being held upright, but she preffers lulling her head to the side, right eye up

-going to head out to the pharmacy to find a heating pad, and get bird seed, will try to get her to eat/drink

-setting up a good cozy box wont be a prob.

edit: i can't feel anything in the crop area, when massaging i sometimes hear small 'gurgle-clicks' like from a water balloon, but other than that, its quite empty


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBisquit,



My friendly wager then...is that she has what is called 'PPMV'.

This is a Virus which Pigeons can get, and, depending on their age and overall condition, it will effect them differently.

For a Pigeon of her age and overall condition, my friendly bet is toward a good prognosis and recovery, which will take time and gentle surrounds to accomplish.

Obviously she was self feeding untill yesterday or so, and, may well have simply got so beat up in flying into things, she was finally just wore out and too sore and stressed to muddle on well in the Wild.

This kind of suggests also that this may be the peak phase of her syndrome or of the Virus bothering her, so things may get a little worse, or, they may start getting better soon as her injury soreness and so on has time to ease up and ammend.

This is possibly why she was not keeping up with her preening of all those new Feathers, ( since the Virus can effect - detract from - some of their fine Motor skills ) as much as she would have liked to...and, would account for the rest of the details we are seeing, along with some blunt Trama from flying into things the Virus occasions in effecting their co-ordinations and reflexes.


It can effect their co-ordinations, and make flying very dangerous.


Warmth...'Lap Towel Cave' for cupped-hand-guided pecking...quiet...having her own 'Secret Pigeon Salon' made from the Box...these will be good and comforting.

Maybe for now, allow Water only during supervised 'Lap Towel Cave' and do not have it in their Box.


Usually with this, the Pigeon is pretty well terrified especially if a person has found them and brought them home...they know they are dis-advantaged for escaping dangers, bruised and sore from flying into things, plus whatever ughies they feel from the Virus itself...so, they benifit from very gentle and soothing conditions..and everything being done very very s-l-o-w-l-y.

The Virus is not contageous to anyone else, other than other Pigeons or some Bird kinds...so, no worries there.


Wash your hands well prior to touching her...wash them again after touching her, and you will have done all one can do for her safety and for general hygenic principles.


When picking her up as I had described...she needs to be like a Duck in Water - 'Horizontal'...'floating' in effect, in your cupped Palms, with your little fingers under her between her Legs, her Legs dangling relaxed...Hands brought in low, from her front....everything slow.


The more you can do things in ways which reduce her feelings of anxiety or worry, the easier it will be for her to function, peck, accept her new surrounds and it's amenities and oddness for her, and so on.

The illness tends to occasion neurological compromise which worstens with worry or other stress...so the less stress, the less co-ordination or other problems.


We can be certain she is sore and achey and bruised also, from flying into things...maybe has some slight concussion or neck strain, so, as that eases up over a week or so, she will be feeling a lot better on that score.


So, if you are into it, you can figure on having her a while...and, you can work on the gentle and slow ways of things, and the 'Lap Towel Cave' for her guided Pecking and so on, since these will be very important for you both.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Her Seeds should be in a low-sh, say 3 inch tall and no taller, flat bottom Coffee Cup...fill to about 7/8ths full.

This for the Lap Towel cave, and, if you like, for her 'Salon' also.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

back,
bought finch seed mix, couldn't find heating pad(the only ones available were the shake or microwave ones)

gonna read prev. post now..


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

success! she's eating!!!!!  good appetite, too!!!

back to post catch-up...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okeydokey...


I have to head out for a while...


Be back later...


"Thrift Stores"...Charity donation Stores, might have nice used Heating Pads.


And...they can be a good source for extra 'Towels' ( White or light color are best )...too...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

ya, i know there are a few thrift stores and other health stores around a subway ride away, i will keep looking.

for now i'm relieved that shes eating, will make her a very cozy box, i have a perfect small bowl that i will secure in the box.

in the meantime i will read up on PPMV and will update later tonight.

Phil, Karyn, thank you so much for your prompt help, I truly appreciate it!

will post tonight


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...

Glad to hear she is eating!


Flat Bottom lowish Coffee Cup tends to be less likely to get tipped over...Lol...

Water should be offered under supervision for now.


I am headed out now...


Later!


Phil
lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

later!

still reading up, and you're absolutely right, its PMV

http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/paramyxovirus__pmv_.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...we can say it is not inconsistent with PPMV as it sometimes is, anyway.


So...gentleness, comforts, good chow...maybe some light Bird Vitamin suppliments or other nice touches...and time.


Very nice that the Wings seem to be good, Legs probably good if sore...Eyes good...no bad injuries from flying into things anyway, far as we can tell...so that's good.


Looks like she had been a healthy vital little Hen...and just into her prime.


Anise Seeds...they like some Anise Seeds bruised betwen the palms, and set on top of their regular Seeds...it's a mood brightener for them if they are feeling a little low or worse for wear.


Get one of those 1 Gallon Jugs of Drinking Water, and, if you can, also get some 'Braggs' raw, Organic, Unfiltered, Apple Cider Vinegar ( any Health Food Store) .

Add three Tablespoons of the Vinegar to the Gallon of Water.


Let this be her drinking Water then for a week...wait a weel, then use again for a week.


Keep in touch with us, and, continue to post images of her poops/urates.


Pigeon Grit would be good to provide for her also. Usually this come in fifty pound Bags, but, maybe someone here could send you a pound or so.


This would allow a natural form of Calcium suppliment, which can benifit them when having the PPMV, as well as that she is a Hen and a Pigeon, and Grit is important to them normally anyway.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

-bird vitamin supplement: do I look for something suitable for finch/parakeets if not specific to pigeons?

-luckily there are a few health food shops around, i'll buy those items you mentionned tomorrow 

-when i hold her the way you mentionned, she holds her legs straight out superman-style. is this a cause for concern?

-should i try to make her a bathing tub so she can wash up, or is it best to wait until she has recovered more?

-is it possible for her to over eat? should i be monitoring her intake?

some of these were questions, others just remarks. overall she seems to have a bit more energy, but she isnt too keen on standing. i will take a few pictures of her, her legs and stools after posting...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

new pictures:


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

most recent poop/urate, nowhere near as watery as the past few. (the lighting in my room is terrible at best)


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

she's in her box, still leaning/lying on her left side, pushing legs out in front of her. I put a bit of the blanket on top of her, and she seems to be nodding off, feathers puffed out slightly...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

i woke up to find her having a bit of a fit. she's resting calmly on my hand now.

question: is it possible for her to run a feever? she feels a little warm on my hand but i really have no basis for this other than concern.

back to her nest she goes, and back to bed go i.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> -bird vitamin supplement: do I look for something suitable for finch/parakeets if not specific to pigeons?



Uhhhh, probably "Nekton" Bird Vitamins, or, "Red Cell" ( for Horses, any Farm or Feed Store or Mail Order ) would be about the best...or any good Bird Vitamin Powder suppliment.

Let us know what you get...

Upping their B Vitamins I think is helpful when they have PPMV.

Old fashioned powdered 'Brewers Yeast' ( any Health Food Store ) is one way to do this...


Add a tiny bit of fresh Olive Oil to a Bowl of Seeds...just a teeeny bit, so that once the Seeds are thoroughly stirred, they just 'glisten' a little.


Powdered suppliments, such as Brewer's Yeast, then, sprinkled on, will adhere to the Seeds, and be eaten then along with them.




> -luckily there are a few health food shops around, i'll buy those items you mentionned tomorrow



Okay



> -when i hold her the way you mentionned, she holds her legs straight out superman-style. is this a cause for concern?



Do you mean, palms up, little fingers slid under her, between her Legs, palms then fold lightly against her sides...and, lift slowly..?


If so, it does not matter then how her Legs are, as long as they are dangling.


Birds have super-acute sense of Balance, and, reflex.

All of which is being disturbed by having PPMV, so, they can over-react, over-steer, one might say.


If holding her to comfort her, in one hand say, try and let the Legs dangle between your fingers also.

They are much more stable that way, and less inclined to wriggle or fuss or struggle, than if their legs are under them supporting them as you hold them.

They are more willng to 'float'...Like a Duck, sort of...if things are that way.



> -should i try to make her a bathing tub so she can wash up, or is it best to wait until she has recovered more?



No Baths for her for a while.

she would hate it if you tried to bathe her...and, she is too unstable to be allowed to bathe herself for now.


You can use a warm damp Paper Towel if needing to blot or tidy up any little schmutzes.




> -is it possible for her to over eat? should i be monitoring her intake?



Not likely an Adult would over eat...and sometimes PPMV Pigeons wish to eat more than a regular Pigeon, out of nerves, or consolation, or boredom, or nutritional cravings, or who knows.




> some of these were questions, others just remarks. overall she seems to have a bit more energy, but she isnt too keen on standing. i will take a few pictures of her, her legs and stools after posting...


Okay...


Bear in mind, she probably got pretty beat up and sore and strained in those flying attempts and crashes and so on, before you got her rounded up.


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I can not tell anything about her Legs as far as the images.

I will guess they are sore though from over-straining them in some of her flying-crash-landing escapades preceding your intervention.


Poops...I have seen Leg Paralasys in assocation with poops like those...or, that poop urate combination.

I do not know any more than that, or, that possibly poops like that may occur in conditions where their Kidneys are swollen and pressing their sciatic Nerves.

If this was my Bird, I might be thinking to try Doxycycline for a week or ten days...and see if anything meaningful happens.


The poops/urate combination does not seem to me to appear to be usual or typical for a PPMV Pigeon, but, the PPMV can do all sorts of odd things.

Watery poops prior, might have simply been that she drank more water than she needed, and or was nervous, and either, or both together, can make for watery poops.

I dunno...

Lets see how things go over the next few days...


If poops are still looking like this, then maybe some meds might be worth trying.


Are the poops/urates kind of looking like 'Spinach Dip'? Dark Green and like how Spinach Dip looks for having been stirred?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would say she does not look so scared now...far as her expression in the first and recentmost images...so that's good...of course.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> i woke up to find her having a bit of a fit. she's resting calmly on my hand now.




PPMV Pigeons can get excited, or frustrated, or agitated sometimes...




> question: is it possible for her to run a feever? she feels a little warm on my hand but i really have no basis for this other than concern.
> 
> back to her nest she goes, and back to bed go i.



Their normal Body temperature is a lot higher than ours...so they will tend to feel 'warm' in one's palm.


Could be that PPMV Pigeons run a little warmer than usual...too.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

good morning. im trying to get a clear picture, but it seems she injured her left wing. she flinches it a lot and she's a bit spooked,...(still catching up on posts)


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

the best shot i could get of the wing. she flinches it and is getting more fit-y than usual, trying to fly,..


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

i tried to examine the wing and i'm no expert, but nothing 'stood out' other than her flinching. shes been flapping both wings more, and i'm concerned about leaving her in the box while i go out in case she further injures herself,..


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Perhaps look at some videos on YouTube.

I had a PMV (or PPMV) pigeon named *Jimmy-Z*. Put this in the You Tube search box, or PMV pigeon, and you will come up with a lot of videos. Some more informative than others, and show the various symptoms.

Look at some videos of young pigeons or squeakers. Is the pigeon "flinching" or "twitching"? Young pigeons twitch their wings and flap them when they want food or are being fed. Wing twitching means the pigeon is excited for some reason or other (prospective mate, attractive bird of opposite sex, whatever).

When he/she is healthy enough, expect some wing slaps. (Some members, like Phil/pdpbison are "pigeon whisperers" -- for want of a better term. Some, like me, are totally insensitive and incompetent "bad neighbors" who better keep their distance from a rescued pigeon. LOL. How would _you_ like an _extremely clumsy_ hundred-foot high bird or reptile trying to "force-feed" you stuff from the garbage container of a human habitation, because it must be what you like and need? Slow starvation much easier and desirable, thank you very much). 

Larry


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

when held shes prefering to hook a few toes on my fingers. shes also holding her tail lower than usual,...


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Perhaps look at some videos on YouTube.

I had a PMV (or PPMV) pigeon named *Jimmy-Z*. Put this in the You Tube search box, or PMV pigeon, and you will come up with a lot of videos. Some more informative than others, and show the various symptoms.

Look at some videos of young pigeons or squeakers. Is the pigeon "flinching" or "twitching"? Young pigeons twitch their wings and flap them when they want food or are being fed. Wing twitching means the pigeon is excited for some reason or other (prospective mate, attractive bird of opposite sex, whatever).

When he/she is healthy enough, expect some wing slaps. (Some members, like Phil/pdpbison are "pigeon whisperers" -- for want of a better term. Some, like me, are totally insensitive and incompetent "bad neighbors" who better keep their distance from a rescued pigeon. LOL. How would _you_ like an _extremely clumsy_ hundred-foot high bird or reptile trying to "force-feed" you stuff from the garbage container of a human habitation, because it must be what you like and need? Slow starvation much easier and desirable, thank you very much). 

Sensing how "hot" a bird is rather tricky. I had a rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised male pigeon *Pidgiepoo* open up or spread the soft feathers on his underside as though he were going to keep eggs warm. I was very surprised how warm he felt, without the intervening feathers! 

An overheated bird will gape or pant, and the skin below the beak will vibrate. They can't sweat like humans. The veins and arteries of the legs are so close together that body heat is transferred from the arteries to the veins without much heat loss. (My father was stationed in Thule, Greenland in the early 1970s, and he sent me a photo of an arctic fox, with the attached remark that their furry feet have a high density of small blood vessels which keeps their legs and paws functional. Ever since then, if not before then, I have been interested in collecting different facts on biological processes and comparative anatomy). There are many threads and posts about PMV on this site.

If he continues to have problem standing, keep us posted. I used to keep a daily log with entries concerning weight and feedings and anyting I remarked or found different or interesting about the rescue. Otherwise some details thought to be perhaps relevant later on were lost in the confusion of my gray matter, which I suspect is a pile of chalk dust left over from a long history of errata. 

Larry


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Perhaps look at some videos on YouTube.
> Look at some videos of young pigeons or squeakers. Is the pigeon "flinching" or "twitching"?
> Larry


she flinches her left wing. It was determined a bit earlier that she's older than I first guessed. I will go back and watch more videos. the biggest difference is that this girl doesnt want to stand.

Ok, no panting, i guess i'm just not used to holding birds

I'll start a log to keep dates and facts in one place for reference.

She has her head tilted to one side and continues to lean on her left, still no standing.

she's calmed down a bit, i'm going to run out and pick up the cider vinnegar and other mentionned items


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pdpbison said:


> 'Seed Bell'...only if no rats have touched it...they usually carry various Salmonella strains, which, while harmless to them, can do in a Bird.
> 
> 
> Many things Birds can get from Rodents...virtually nothing a Rodent can get from a Bird...just so you know.
> ...




That's amazing, Phil. My sister had rats for years and loved them dearly. The hardest part was that they never lived longer than 3 years and so she was always very sad about losing a dear friend. One she took everywhere with her...kept her in her pocket and the little rat became quite the local celebrity.
I wonder if your rat comapanion was a different variety of rats? Interesting.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

DanceBiscuit...do you have a vet near you that can do a gram stain to look for bad bacteria? 
Clostrilium and samonella to name two, can cause a bird to loose funtion of the legs. A course of an appopriate antibiotic can resolve the probelm in a few days.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

we have more poops! very solid:









just got home, going to prepare the water and food...

going to call around regarding the vet...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's a good looking poop.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

i forgot its sunday, so far all clinics are closed, will call tomorrow...

The legs work, she just seems incredibly off balance and wont stand


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

guess who is standing on her own two feet?

Her head is still cocked to one side, but nowhere near as badly. I got a dish for water and placed it in her cage with the anise/brewers yeasty seeds.

No pictures right now, I'm cleaning ..


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's wonderful.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBisquit,



When holding her, Legs need to be dangling so she is supported only by your single palm, or palms...if in one palm, have her face away from your wrist, legs dangling off to the side where palm meets wrist opposite your Thumb. 

She needs to feel it is a secure and trustworthy condotion so she does not worry about fallinf or being dropped on short notice.


This is the most stable...if her legs get in on it, she will be trying to struggle or be poised to struggle or launch out or be trying to balance herself to some degree.

If she accepts her legs are out of the picture, she will accept your hold...just keep it so she is like a Duck in water would be...like that, not tilted.


They can hurt themselves flailing...they can break Wings flailing or thrashing.

Lots of soft Padding in her Box....look-out Holes in the sides of her Box ar her Eye level...

I don't think she hurt herself seriously.


Just a little Brewer's Yeast per meal...like a decent 'pinch' worth.


The more you can gain her trust, or put her at ease, the less she is likely to be anxious or to indulge in thrashing or flailing...though some will do that regardless, in the throes of thier PPMV experience. This phase will pass after a while, anyway.


If you can spend time with her, may as well do so, having her in your palm up against your upper stomach or chest as you read, eat supper, watch TV or whatever.

Can you do some close ups of recent poops?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

poopers.....


















there were four in total. smaller and not very watery. white and dark green.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Uhhhhh...Lol...in Focus ones?


Have the poops changed since having her?


Prior ones looked like maybe a sort of amorphous glob of 'Spinich' Dip with white stirred into it.


The ones you are showing now, are well formed fecal matter and apprear normal and healthy.


It would be good for her to have true and proper 'Pigeon Grit'. Do you think there might be any Pigeon Raceing or Show or as may be people in your area you could get some from?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Charis said:


> DanceBiscuit...do you have a vet near you that can do a gram stain to look for bad bacteria?
> Clostrilium and samonella to name two, can cause a bird to loose funtion of the legs. A course of an appopriate antibiotic can resolve the probelm in a few days.


Lets keep this in mind...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

the poops went from large, watery poops to smaller, denser and more frequent droppings.

I'm searching for places in toronto, worse comes to worse there seems to be a pigeon racing club in oakville. its further but accessible.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> guess who is standing on her own two feet?
> 
> Her head is still cocked to one side, but nowhere near as badly. I got a dish for water and placed it in her cage with the anise/brewers yeasty seeds.
> 
> No pictures right now, I'm cleaning ..




Very glad to hear.


I do believe she was sore and strained and bruised and or pulled-muscles from her flying mis-haps and crashes and so on before you had got her rounded up...these can easily take days, or even a couple weeks to resolve.


I am not positive this is PPMV, but, it seems enough like it, to where it may be, and, untill we have something to suggest it is not, then no harm to supply supportive care, good nutrition, comfort, and, see what goes on from there.


Some PPMV PIgeons are fuss-budgets and thrashers and it taxes ones wits trying to find ways of consoling them. 

Others are very docile, and behave as if they were Statues of 'Birds', not moving at all hardly ever, merely standing poised and with perfect dignity for hours on end, days on end, electing to change their manner only for eating or preening.

Others can be disposed to turning in circles in place, or twisting themselves into falling over, or launching up like Parlor Tumblers, or various other things.


Having an injured or sore-weak Leg would add a difficulty to an already difficult-enough condition as far as seeking comfort or peace with the vicissitudes otherwise of the illness, and it's effects on Motor Co-ordination.

In her compromises prior to your having found her, she may even have eaten foods or drank liquids, she would normally have avoided, for being hungry and thirsty, and finding it difficult to forrage.


These in themselves could make her sick or have occasioned some 'food poisoning' if the food or liquids had Bacteria or anaerobes or whatever in them from sitting outside where someone tossed some left overs or scraps or who knows.


Long as things seem to be improving and clearing up, these conjectures become less important of course.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

good morning,

she can stand, I saw her preening her front a bit last night, and she's almost holding her head normally.

when I went to pick her up, she flopped to her left side, wether sore or otherwise, i think something is still bothering her legs.

her overnight poops and urates are small and well formed 

i think shes a bit nervous, shaking at times. 

pictures to come.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

alright, update time!









-I took this picture when I put her back into her cage. I think her right leg bothers her, because she often flops to her side and kicks her right leg out. She spun a bit like this, but now she's sitting straight and all puffed up(probably napping 'till I looked)

-She hasn't been holding her head crookedly 

-we spent quality time together this morning. She half slept in my hand, had a few flappy fits, got nervous when I went into the kitchen(shook a bit)...

-She's eating and drinking *thumbs up*

-I made a vet appt for wednesday at a vet that specializes in birds and exotics/parrots. I made it clear that she's my rescue and that I just need her checked up.

-Still trying to find a pigeon supply store. The best I could find at the time of writing is this one: http://pigeonplus.ca/Pages/mineralnutrition.htm I'm overwhelmed by the kinds of grit, what should I look for in particular? Any recomended brands?

Thank you all again for your help/expertise!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Are you in Canada?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is this one too.


http://www.northstardoves.com/NorthstarDoves/Bird_Medicines.html


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm in Toronto, Canada I just posted about it in the general discussion forum.

Behaviour update: She's attempting to sleep standing on one leg, her feathers are puffed right out, but she's having problems with balance, and waking every few seconds to keep herself from falling over.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dancebisquit,


The Grit I like is usually called 'Pigeon Grit' and it is a mixture of fine crushed Oyster Shell, Granite or Quarts and Charcoal, and is fortified with some extra Vitamins and Minerals...and is under the Brand Name 'Royal Pigeon', made by the 'Leach Grain and Milling Co' out of Downey California.


http://www.leachgrain.com/aboutus.html


My Birds like it too...


Sounds like she is definitely feeling better...standing on one Leg to sleep or day dream is what a Healthy strong adult Pigeon usually does.


Puffed out Feathers is usually something one sees if a Bird is not feeling well though.


Need some in focus close-ups of the Poops...just do this like every other day, do a "To-Day's Poops" image or two.

Start an album even, on a free site like 'fotki' or 'webshots'...store them there.


When she is pecking, what kind of Head and Body motion do you see happenning?

Does her Head simply move up and down an inch or two, vertically, with each 'peck'? Or..?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Anyway...


When seeing the Vet -


Consider to ask about the cost of his doing a fecal analysis with a view toward looking for signs of Worms or other intestinal parasites...and if it is reasonable, consider to do it.


Also ask the Vet if he or she thinks this could be a presentation of Salmonella ( or any other Bacterial issue), or, Salmonella/Bacterial along with PPMV.

Salmonella has many 'faces'.


So does PPMV.

So...Oye...

Among Avian Vets who do or will treat Pigeons, some will do the exam and consultation for free, when the person is sincerely and devotedly caring for a Wild/Feral Pigeon...with either yes or no charging for any Meds the Bird may need.


I hope the Vet you have elected to try is one of those who do not charge.

Bring some of the freshest poops along, wrapped gently in a little clear plastic wrap...in case a fecal analysis is to be done.

If the Vet is friendly and interested and 'reaonable' with fees, also consider to have a Crop Swab done to see if there is anything interesting to be seen Crop wise for unusual or undesireable Fauna or Flora there.

If any of these tests are going to be other than free or very reasonable, please do not feel pressured by my mentioning them, to have them done.

Today's poop images? Nice close up, in focus?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

morning poop:









the day's poop(ok, the background poops are clear. Its really tricky...):









lately she preffers to stand on my hand and fusses whenever I try to hold her w legs dangling. Could someone show me the 'proper' way of holding her with one hand? I thing I must be doing it wrong if she refuses,...

hehe, she's standing on my hand as I type this, attempting to ballance on one foot(failing, but trying) and occasionally preening! yay!

i will pay close attention next time she's eating to answer your pecking question


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Dance Bisquit,


Good to hear!


I see three quite different kinds of poop there.


Two quite different kinds in the image of poops-on-Oak...both looking somewhat 'off'...the left one might just be from nerves, or, dumping extra Water a loittl early if excited.


And, all about the same, but different from the prior two, in the images of poops-on-cloth...all looking to be normal healthy poops far as I can tell.

Odd...

Which ones are from what part of the day?

I will see if I can have someone make an image of me holding a pigeon in 'Floaty Bird'.


Sometimes this takes a few rounds of practice for the Bird to get it, sometimes not.

If you have to carry a Pigeon, it is the best, since they just go along with it and no struggle or force or anything is needed, and they are satisfied all is secure and nothing is required of them but to lay there relaxed and enjoying the ride.


But, good too for any convelesent who has Leg issues, or regardless, it is just a lot easier than them thinking they need to be adjusting their balence or squirming or whatever.

I always start off with the two handed version of this, holding them to my Eye level, for any new arrive Pigeon, and, holding them this way we have our initial conversation about what is up, why, and what my interest is, and so on.

And we repeat the hold any time I need to pick them up, also taking pause for some Eye to Eye conversation, for then going on to whatever we need to do exam wise or fussing wise or debriding wise or feeding wise or whatever.

I have ling time non-releaeables here who will never let me touch them or pick them up for any reason, who are totally 'WILD', but, who for long ago things we had worked out, if I say "Big Hugs", they will stand still, and let me pick them up in 'Floaty Bird', where we then do 'Big Hugs' in a way...and, then I set them back down and they fly off or stand there a minute or whatever.


If I did not announce that as being the intention, there is no way I could ever catch them or so much as touch a Feather.

Point being, they learn fast what various terms and phrases mean, and, they wish to know our reason or interest or intentions when we are approaching them, or intending to fuss with them or do things.

Whereupon, regardless, they decide for themselves if they wish to be touched or fussed with or interfered with according to what they understand of our intentions.


Since convelescents are a captive audience, of course we are at an advantage...but, regardless, it is good to explain things to them, and to state our reason or intention for fussing with them, even if it is just our interest for being sociabe or to hold or cuddle them.


They like to know what to expect.

Same as anyone...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

-The poops in the first picture were from the early morning, she got startled and started having a fit outside her cage and eventually pooped that out all at once. The poops-on-cloth are her droppings from the rest of the day. This morning's poop looks alright.

-I would appreciate 'floaty bird' pictures. She has such bad balance yet is determined to stand on her own, which is funny/sad when she unknowingly nearly falls flat on her beak. She manages well enough for now though...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh, okay...( Makes sense - poops occuring under differing conditions...)

I will see if I can have a friend take a few pictures of my holding a volenteer...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Long story short, I ended up at the wildlife center and when they checked her, they found bruising, blood feathers, and a puncture wound that I missed. They tested her flight and she tumbled, and what I took for nervousness and protective behaviour because of the sickness, they identified as fear of humans.
I was told the PPV had given her too much brain damage, and the improvement I saw in her was just due to her eating and re-gaining strength(she was probably starved/half dead when I found her)She's unable to survive in the wild, because of the PPV, shelters/rescues wouldn't accept her, and since she's fearful of humans and is wild, I was told she'll be too stressed/get crop disease/infection in my care. 
They put her down.

The center takes in a large number of pigeons(they showed me) and I grilled them to try to find another option, but they assured me that putting her down was the best option, and that it would have been cruel to keep her(by that time, I had already named her and grown attached)

Having found her caused me to learn a lot about pigeons as a whole and I've developed a strong admiration for them.

Today I spent some time in front of a shopping center where a lot of pigeons gather. I saw that many of them have string feet, a few are horribly swollen and I want to help them out if I can. I'm reading up on the string foot related threads.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry there weren't any good alternatives for this pigeon. Thank you, Dance Biscuit, for all the help you gave to the bird. I hope you will be able to assist some of the others that you have seen that are in need of help.

Though there may be some posts from members with strong feelings about this bird being euthanized, I'm giving the wildlife center the benefit of any doubt. I have had severely injured pigeons over the years that were terrified of me, and I often had to wonder if I was really doing the right thing for them by keeping them alive and captive. None of them could have survived in the wild due to their conditions, but I hate to think that they may have lived miserable lives with me. On the other hand, they had some number of years of life that they would not otherwise have had. These are always difficult decisions, and I respect the caring and well reasoned decision made for this bird.

Thanks again for helping this bird and for your kind interest in assisting future pigeons!

Terry


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I still feel uneasy about it, and ultimately I'll never know how she felt about her situation, and that upsets me greatly. I feel that quality of life is what matters, and I'm thankful that she didn't die half-starved at the hands of a predator or from the wheels of oncoming traffic.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBisquet,


Sorry to hear...

And, I understand.


I deal with these PPMV Birds all the time, often with complications of injury or privation preceding, and I am used to their peculiarities.

Yours may have been Shot, which would have possibly complicated things immensely...but, we will never know, unless the perforation/puncture injury had been closely investigated.

They can be a handfull, at best...and close to impossible, if not impossible and exhasperating to manage or console, at worst.

I know..!! Believe me..!


I really enjoyed your Thread and working with you, and your hood attitude through-out.


And I admire how well you gave it the good try there.


Phil
Lv


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## alienbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm really sorry to hear about the pigeon. That's too bad.  ... you did so much to try to help her & I could tell from your posts that you genuinely cared... thanks for taking time to provide food and shelter when the pigeon was suffering and for trying to help her get better! 

I think it's great that you want to help out the pigeons with possible string feet injuries... good luck in helping them and I'm sure if you have any questions there are many knowledgable people on PT who would be happy to answer. 

Because of your caring nature I believe more pigeons in need will find their way to you... trust me! Others will vouch for it: Pigeons just seem to "know" who to go to for help! 

Best wishes.


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