# Sick Dove - what meds?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...

"Godzilla" - should be 'Dove-Zilla' I sppose...a resident Morning Dove who decided he wanted to live 'here' instead of the Wild surronds...

Anyway, last night, I realize he has not been flying and goofing around, and in fact is sitting puffed-out and sleeping all day...clearly, he is n ot feeling well.

His night roost shows a succession of poops which were liquidy, crdled white urates, and bright dark Green fecal matter.

This morning, he was throwing up Seeds which were either stained bright darkish Green, or trowing up mysterious dark Green material which looks like plant matter, but no one here has HAD any 'Greens' recently...

His overnight poops amont to at most, a 'flat' splat or series of 'splats' which would hardly be a 1/4 teaspoon...

He was eating last night on the desk here, but did not eat much, and this I imagine is what he was throwing up this morning.

Anyway, I have no idea what I am looking at here with this...

I have him set up now in a 'Warm Cage', and I will arrange some ACV-Water...

Any ideas on what is going on here with him?


The stained Seeds he just threw up, the staining does not rub off even though there is some bright dark Green liquid associated with them.


Thanks all...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Phil,

What does the inside of the mouth look like? No solids in the poops or vomit?

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sounds bad, Phil. The green stuff coming back up the other way probably means that bile is washing up all the way from the deeper end of the GI. This is more than likely true vomiting instead of simple regurgitation. I'd hit the bird with Baytril, an anti-canker, an anti-coccidial and a wormer although I'd want to run some tests only the dove might not have the time. I'd use the gentlest wormer that I had and I'd prefer Levamisole but I wouldn't waste time trying to get it if I didn't have it.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

But, you jangled a memory--I think little Debbie did that when she had the worms that time. That is, I'm pretty sure that the vomitus had the green tint. I actually stumbled along for a few days feeding her thinned formula and that would go through but it all stopped when she got to eat the seeds. In short, you could keep her alive on the formula but nothing solid could go through. That's when I hit her with the Levamisole and the worms started coming out within 24 hours. They were still alive (Levamisole only knocks them silly and they let go of the sides and slide <eeewww!> out) when they woke up outside the bird in the piles of poop. I kept them in a sealed vial and there were quite a lot of them--enough to make an almost impenetrable plug.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Worms and canker come to mind as a couple of the more common reasons the bird could be vomiting. For that reason I'd do a wormer right away, then start
in w/canker med. This is barring the unusual.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> What does the inside of the mouth look like? No solids in the poops or vomit?
> 
> fp



Hi fp, 


Thank you...

I was running late earlier, and had to leave...but before doing so I did pop a 1/5th spartix down his gullet, but I did not check the inside of his Mouth and Throat, even though I should have...I was dopey from sleep and harried somewhat. I will check those in a few minutes, now that In am home again.

His throwing up was just regular Seeds, Milo, Millet...some looking normal, some stainged Green, and some green sludge or goo along with them. He did not throw up much, but then, he likely has not eaten much the last 24 hours.



Okay, I just checked his Throat, and it looks normal to me...no sihn of any off color, no sign of Canker, not inflamed...

He'd thrown up this morning's Spartex segment, so I gave him a new one just now when examing his mouth and so on.

I think the rest in the Warm-Cage has benifited him...

But, I see that in five hours or so, he has only made three small mostly urate poops...so...

Anyway, I forgot in my haste earlier to actually make his ACV-Water and had only set a Bowl of Berimax-Water, which now I have added the ACV to...looks like he had drank little to nothing so far anyway, so I will see about getting him to drink here in a little while...

There was a couple small throw-up spots of about three seeds each, one of which contained the Spartix segment.

He seems to be feeling better than he did this morning anyway...but for sure, not out-of-the-woods yet...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Wow...Oye, Eeeeeeeesh, Oooooooo...golly...

"Worms"...

Does not seem like Canker to me, so yea...let me see what I have Worm-med wise...be right back...

Okay, I have "Moxidectin" - Contains Moxidectin 2mg per ml...and, has added Praziquantel 18.8 mg per ml. This is a Liquid which one mixes with Water to the tune of 5 ml to one Litre of Water...for the patient's drinking Water.


And, I have "Vetafarm Wormout", small Tablets...sez:"Give one Tablet per Pigeon by Mouth"....each Tablet contains - Praziquantel 10 mg & 10 mg Oxfendazole.

He weighs 100 Grams, so, I will figure to give him the 'Vetafarm Wormout' to the tune of one-third-tablet, seeing as 300 Grams is likely average enough for a Pigeon the label anticipated in the Tablet-dosage scale...

Far as I recall, he was active flying as usual a-plenty, eating and doing his "I am a male Dove!" Calls till sometime yesterday...so, I recon he could coast a little bit on the chow for now, or at least till I see if he will hold down the 1/3 tablet...with maybe some thin formula tubed in later tonight...


Wish us luck..!


Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Allrighty...gave him his ( s-l-i-g-h-t-l-y generous ) "1/3rd" of a "Vetafarm Wormout" Tablet...and I will check often to see that is staying 'down'...

Double checked the Cage this time with a Flashlight ( dim in there after te Sun sets, ) and see there had been seven dabs of White with little dark green centers since I had set him up around Noon...


Man, these Doves are so delicate compard to Pigeons, opening his Beak to pop in the 1/3 Tablet and so on, examining his Throat, such a delicate little Bird...

"Mothra" ( his pardner in Dove shennanagins and overall fun and flying antics and so on here, ) seems his usual self, but maybe I should treat him also sometime soon, just to be prudent...

Maybe, treat everyone, really...me included if I have enough Tablets..! Lets see, 145 pounds, is so many Grams, and...hmmm, out of the 100 Tablets in the little Bottle, there might just be enough..!

( just kidding, uhhhhhh, probably...! ) 

Lol...


Thanks so much!

Till next!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Worms and canker come to mind as a couple of the more common reasons the bird could be vomiting. For that reason I'd do a wormer right away, then start
> in w/canker med. This is barring the unusual.
> fp


A lack of good gut bacteria can also cause them to up-chuck.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

Sorry to hear this little Dove is not feeling well. Hopefully the meds will start to work soon and s/he will start to feel better before too long.

The one suggestion I would add right now, and you are probably already doing it, is to make sure s/he is well hydrated. This is pretty important to do when they have been vomiting. If you feel s/he is not drinking well, I would tube some additional fluids, re-hydrating solution, say 2cc a couple of times a day. 

Good luck with this little guy,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> A lack of good gut bacteria can also cause them to up-chuck.


Hi Treesa, 

Was just prioritizing them from experience and some of the books and rule out charts that I have. Canker being first, worms being second, a crop infection being third.

In the sense that a crop infection would be an improper balance or ratio of good to bad bacteria, this would be a good consideration.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

_He'd thrown up this morning's Spartex segment, so I gave him a new one just now when examing his mouth and so on._


Phil, mine will throw up Spartrix on GP, unless I pull the water and feed. I get best results w/canker meds in general when I grind them up and add a little water and syringe. My thinking on that is that chances are they will hold down some of that and be unable to upchuck it all in one sitting. 

_And, I have "Vetafarm Wormout", small Tablets...sez:"Give one Tablet per Pigeon by Mouth"....each Tablet contains - Praziquantel 10 mg & 10 mg Oxfendazole.

He weighs 100 Grams, so, I will figure to give him the 'Vetafarm Wormout' to the tune of one-third-tablet, seeing as 300 Grams is likely average enough for a Pigeon the label anticipated in the Tablet-dosage scale...

Far as I recall, he was active flying as usual a-plenty, eating and doing his "I am a male Dove!" Calls till sometime yesterday...so, I recon he could coast a little bit on the chow for now, or at least till I see if he will hold down the 1/3 tablet...with maybe some thin formula tubed in later tonight..._

Phil, I have pretty much the same product except w/twice as strong a dose.
So, the product I have is Praziquantel 20mg's & 20 mg's Oxfendazole. The bottle I have says one pill per 2 kilograms of body weight. You can do the math from there  

_Man, these Doves are so delicate compard to Pigeons, opening his Beak to pop in the 1/3 Tablet and so on, examining his Throat, such a delicate little Bird..._

That's why I figured take it out mechanically. The one time worm dose first, then move to the canker meds. As small as you are describing in weight, the dove seems pretty fragile. I don't know if you have Flagyl or not or which
anti biotics, but if you don't have a compatible duo, then I'd do canker meds
w/probiotics in between and as Ron mentioned make sure to augment the fluids--maybe even one of your famous nutritional soups.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Phil, sorry your baby is not feeling well. Somehow, when I work with doves I think of yeast infections, I guess because I've seen that in them more than worms. Matter of fact, I don't think I have ever had a dove with worms. The other thing is canker which, as you well know, can hit a dove sometimes much worse than a pigeon. 

The weight is not bad. Most of them we get in are in the 90-120 gram range. I would keep a close eye on the weight, give it an antifungal and probiotics as well as the spartrix and wormer.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> ...........
> The weight is not bad. Most of them we get in are in the 90-120 gram range. I would keep a close eye on the weight, give it an antifungal and probiotics as well as the spartrix and wormer.


Maggie, do you think Phil needs something stronger than a medicinal dosing
w/acv?

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> In the sense that a crop infection would be an improper balance or ratio of good to bad bacteria, this would be a good consideration.
> fp



Hi fp,

I would use probiotics/kefir (especially kefir) in addition to the others, it seems to clean up whatever may be going on in the crop, as well as multiply the good bacteria in the gut.

How is your little pateint, Diesel Doll doing?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> I would use probiotics/kefir (especially kefir) in addition to the others, it seems to clean up whatever may be going on in the crop, as well as multiply the good bacteria in the gut.
> 
> How is your little pateint, Diesel Doll doing?


Phil's description makes h/her seem so fragile, hope things work out for his new friend.

Diesel is doing very well, I've been out w/the flu, you'll be happy to know that
I'm doing probiotics.  

I'll do an update w/some more pics in just a bit....

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Thanks so much!

I will tube feed some thin nutritious 'Soup' augmented with pro-biotics...

He kept the Wom-Pill down nicely...or at least I do not see it anywhere in his clean-towell.

I did an initial 'Spartix' then set him up with 'Berimax' Water yesterday morning, then later remembered to add the ACV to that, so...the 'Berimax' will nicely carry out any desired anti-Trichomonal measures with the least taxing of his system.

This did seem to manifest suddenly....earlier in the day he had been his same-old-self, evening time a little subdued, morning, was throwing up and obviously not passing anything but the Urates and Bile over-night...so...


The Candida or Yeast infections of Crops I have seen that were in Pigeons, they truely looked miserable, and or also had gassy or sodden or inflated Crops...and or additionally, were 'sleepy' and withdrawn when the condition was serious enough to show or be obvious something was amiss. These had no interest in eating, where Dove-Zilla is interested but his interest falls off after a few dozen pecks..and besides, if things are 'blocked' I should not be letting him have any Seeds anyway yet.

His Crop is 'flat' merely, and he looks only mildly out of sorts, and just wants to rest open-eyed and alert and a little bored looking, on his Heating Pad Towell in the 'Warm-Cage' where his pal 'Mothra' has been visiting right against the outside Cage side...

I actually gave him probably almost twice the dose of the Vetafarm "Wormout" than his weight should have had, since I keep forgetting that the 'average' Pigeon ( for whom one Pill was intended) weighs more like 500 Grams in Racing or Homeing circles, compared to 'Dove-Zilla's 100 grams, so, hope I did no harm with that goof up of giving him a slightly generous 1/3rd of a Pill...

Thanks for your help!

And for the remind on adequate Hydration...

He had not thrown up all that much far as I could see, but still, he is not drinking much either and so...I will go fix him some warm 'Soup' now with pro-biotics added and hope it feels good to him to have some put into his Crop...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

...I will go fix him some warm 'Soup' now with pro-biotics added and hope it feels good to him to have some put into his Crop...


Phil
Las Vegas

That's why they like having your place to hang at....

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Can't add any med advice, "Dr. D." but AM sending WARM HUGS AND HEALING THOUGHTS FOR THE LITTLE ONE!!

Do keep us updated!!!

Hi and Hugs to Buttercup!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi eveyone!


Thanks so much for your input...

'Dove-Zilla' and his pal 'Mothra' were Summer Babys, and last Summer I had a lot of Baby Doves brought to me, many of whom people saw fall from high Nests in Palm Trees from Birds of Prey tearing the Nests up and making off with the sibling. Or people took from their Cats or whatever else as tends to happen.

Various of these had ruptured air Sacs and general contusions, some had Canker, all turned out splendidly, did not loose a one, and all got way "WILD" as they reached that age of 'independance' and wanted nothing to do with me, which is how I like it of course, and all went outside in various self-regulated forays to come back in as they pleased...most at one point or another kept-a-going, and these two decided to stay here.

At some point, one day, out of the blue, each of them decided to become friendly, and have been cuddle-bugs ever since.

Anyway, thats the background on these two.

Otherwise, Dove-Zilla started some occasional 'paceing' in his Warm-Cage last night, and again this morning, indicating he is bored with the confinement and feeling a l-i-t-t-l-e better.

Several times I started to feed him via 'The Tube' and I felt like I was wearing Baseball Gloves trying to manage a Banshee made of stale Whipped Cream, and he HATES being held in that kind of way, so he was all wrestler's squirms and so on, Feathers comeing off and so on, as Doves can somehow do better than anyone it seems.

So, I gave in, let him be, and procrastinated some more.

He is like some Cats are as for being held. He likes being held for about two seconds, then HATES it.

Mothra, on the other hand, you can hold indefinitely and he just makes himself 'low' and sort of snuggles in.

I offered him some warm 'Soup' in a little cup-thing, and I pretended to drink some, and finally he was curious and he drank a little and stood there smacking his lips, well, such as they are anyway, looking like he liked it, but was puzzlked on how it was neither 'Water' nor obviously 'Seed' so he was definitely wondering why this new form of eating should show up now after all this time when he knew nothing about it previously.

So, we did that, I'd pretend to drink a little, he'd look all interested again, I'd hold it over for him, he'd take these successive little bite-sips and stand there smacking his lips and so on, take a few more, then my 'turn' again...so...we got 'some' chow into him that-a-way...

The only Doves I have ever Tube-Fed were too weak to protest much about it! Dove-Zilla is STRONG, and it is a whole different Ballgame trying to do the deed with him..! The 'Burrito-Bird' set up seems hopelsss with his wriggleing and head scrunchings and so on...

Anyway...

Eight or ten little pooplets on the towell this morning, and no more 'bile', so, I gave him a half Teaspoon of tiny Finch Seed Mix Seeds, and he was very enthused and ran over and started pecking instantly...eating all of them but a couple in no time.

So, letting him rest in the Warm-Cage still...pending whether we can get it together for a nice Tube-Feed, or, whether we shall make do as it is...

Now, any ideas on how soon I should Worm him again?

In the past, I think I waited ten days then did the second round...but, let me know please your suggestions..?

Thanks!

Phil
in chilly, WINDY, CHILLY, and really windy, and chilly, Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I think that the usual reason for double worming is that the bird may have ingested more worm eggs that haven't gone through the full cycle and ended up in the GI yet. With a lot of wormers, they don't have an effect on the worms until they're hanging around in the GI. If you've had a bird isolated from worm-egg ridden food or dirt for quite awhile, a one-time worming works pretty well. I only wormed Debbie once and she's been worm-free ever since. I never worm the rest of them (just new ones that test positive) and can't find any evidence, microscopic or otherwise, that they've got any.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Well, since he was most likely one of the 'Pecan-Sized' Babys, or little 'Quill-Bugs', I would think that if Worms are in fact the culprit with his situation, then he must have gottem them 'here' somehow.


And, as you likely recall, I have Field Mice here, which I safe-trapped all but some very few of not long ago, and I will safe-trap these few too, and release them in the Park...but...m-a-y-b-e the Mice carry some kind of Worms that the Birds could get when floor-grazing as they will.

Now, to me, this IS "dangerous" having Mice here, but there is no way to ever prevent the Mice form comeing in...all I can do is safe-trap them once they are in here, and some take longer to get into the trap than others.

So...

Anyway...

I feel bad that a Bird could get sick or get Worms "here" where my intent of course is to offer them a safe and secure and wholesome place to either get well, or to grow up...!


So, I will figure to Worm him again I think, next week or ten-day sometime...or once he seems back-on-his-feet a lot more, just for good measure.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the update and background on this little guy. I am glad to hear he still is so strong and has a lot of fight in him, I think this bodes well for his prognosis. Also glad to hear the droppings are looking better.

Well, I guess if you had to, you could just do your share the "soup" routine with him if it's working, instead of stressing him right out with tubing, but I know you'll do what's best for him. Please let us know how he processed his recent meal of seeds.

All the best,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> .......
> 
> I feel bad that a Bird could get sick or get Worms "here" where my intent of course is to offer them a safe and secure and wholesome place to either get well, or to grow up...!
> 
> ...


I guess you answered it yourself Phil, this is what I would do if concerned
about continued exposure or auto-infest mode. Thanks for the update and hope he continues to do well.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Well, just did a casual checking up on him, and I see four completely 'normal', perfect, nice, little honest-to-goodness 'Raisen' sized poops on the towell...brown with white...perfectly formed of curled-ness...

Yippeeeeeeee! Yeah!

Gave him another half Tea Spoon worth of Finch Seed Mix and he went to town on that...

Mothra in attendance at the intimate Cage-side ( with his own little jar-lid 'Bowl' of the same ind of Seeds too so he won't feel like he is missing out...)


So, guarded optmism...still, but I sure am happy to see those poops happenning now...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, are you sure you didn't help him drink the soup mix? 

We reworm 14 days from the first worming.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Dr. D...I could have sworn I read some time ago that you had a microscope. 

If so, can't you take a stool sample and check for those pesky eggs??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi mr squeaks, 


Uhhhhhhhh...yes, I DO have a Microscope!

I forgot to even think about that...

I indeed could elect a poop-sample, make a saline 'float' I s'pose...and look for those Worm related items...

Thanks for reminding me!

Later tonight sometime, have to get some more Shop Work done now for a few hours...


Best wishes!

Thanks!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been nagging him about that for years now. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!" Incidentally, Phil, you just have to know that without proof, either from a float test or worms in the stools, you don't know whether there were really worms or if it was a just a temporary illness. You did treat the bird for canker, too, didn't you?

But a HAPPY ENDING is a HAPPY ENDING!

No pun intended.

Really.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yes Phil, good to hear those droppings are looking good.

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Might be a bit tough if in the auto-infest mode. In the meantime, glad you're
happy w/the appearance of the little raisinettes, Phil.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've been nagging him about that for years now. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!"
> 
> *Just shows to go ya that naggin' doesn't work...You gotta be NICE!*
> 
> ...



Like Dr. D. said, he's been quite busy and the microscope just "slipped" his mind...so there!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've been nagging him about that for years now. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!" Incidentally, Phil, you just have to know that without proof, either from a float test or worms in the stools, you don't know whether there were really worms or if it was a just a temporary illness. You did treat the bird for canker, too, didn't you?
> 
> But a HAPPY ENDING is a HAPPY ENDING!
> 
> ...



Hi Pidgey, 


I shall see if the flesh-is-willing later today/tonight sometime...

Uhhh, any fast remedial pointers on how to do it?

I mix some stiff Saline Solution, into a little medicine jar or shot glass, dissolve a poop into it...leave it sit, covered, for fifteen or twenty minutes, having if 'full' so the surface tension of the liquid is proud...

Then, carefully touch the Glass Slide to the surface, and let it dry? Or look at it 'wet'..?

And, I would be useing what power lower Lense to seek the Worm Eggs? They are 'large' I think, yes? So the lowest oif the three bottom Lenses should do?

Like that?


Canker-wise, * I do not think he had any Canker, but I wanted to treat anyway...) he's been on 'Berimax' continuously, although I did give him a partial tab of 'Spartrix' initially till I could find my Berimax to mix some up for him...the Berimax is more throrough than the Spartrix is...

Berimax-ACV-Water in fact, has been his only Water...and he seems to have been drinking about as much as someone of his weight would over this time...


I do need to get some 'Metronidazole' to have on hand...been out for a while, keep forgetting to order more...


Thanks Pidgey!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sorry, Phil, was gone this weekend and didn't know about this post until Sunday evening. I documented the float test in this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10561

And there's a link to a picture series in there that makes it clearer than the text, I think.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, 

I put these together for you for different kinds of microsope links.
Some are pictures of what you'll be looking for, some are descriptions of how
to prepare the slides and the ups and downs of each type of preparation.
There's also a link to purchasing Under the Microscope which is a useful little 
book. If anything there may be too many links here, but sometimes it's difficult to find an online picture of something.

fp



http://www.birdhealth.com.au/about/microscope.html

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/paraav/labs/eimeria.htm

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

http://medic.med.uth.tmc.edu/path/00001450.htm

http://www.isrvma.org/article/61_1_1.htm

http://www.birdsnways.com/articles/cultures.htm

http://www.avianpublications.com/items/vetmed/item144.htm

http://plpnemweb.ucdavis.edu/nemaplex/Methods/vetparasites.htm

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/courses_v...entrifugation.htm#Zinc Sulfate Centrifugation

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/techniques/comfecal.html


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Might be a bit tough if in the auto-infest mode. In the meantime, glad you're
> happy w/the appearance of the little raisinettes, Phil.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,

I do not think there is any auto-infest mode, but was just wondering hoe he would have come by them...

I doubt a Baby would have them, so that leaves having gotten them 'here', and no one else ever seemed to have them, other than some few ferals who I treated for them before their free-rove period of being out of their convelesent Cage...

So, I was wondering whether the Field Mice could have and transmit them, to floor-grazing Birds, but I do not know and I have not tried researching that yet...

Certainly all 'dirt' grazing animals and human children, and gardeners and so on are liable to various kinds of 'Worms', and Doves and Pigeons of course in their way seek their gravel/grit or Seeds on the ground or Earth or 'dirt' as may be.


Best wishes..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohmygoodness!

Lol...

Thanks Pidgey and fp..!

Wow...

Well, 'tomorrow'...

I am too tired and achy now to want to to much of anything but some sleep.

I did let Dove-Zilla out for some flying time this evening, and he flew around a little bit, ate Seeds, visited with Mothra, and then he settled in perching on the Computer Screen top, so, I put him back into his Warm Cage.

He is not 100 percent 'back' to his old self yet, but at least IS eating and pooping normally and is 'close' to being back...

I am not sure what else to do, other than, of course, 'tomorrow', to so the look-see with the Microscope, and possibly give him his second round or Worm Pill dose in a few days or so.

He is not puffed up or sleepy or appearing withdrawn, but he has not done any of his previously frequent 'Crowing', so, this in itself is a clue to his not feeling up parr yet. And he seems a little subdued...generally...


Thanks so much!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Tell you what, Phil, the thing you want to do most is get your microscope out and set it up somewhere relatively dust protected. If that means that you need to cover it with a plastic trash bag when you're not using it, then so be it. Anyhow, just get it out and start looking through it to get used to it. When that starts, your questions will start getting specific and then we'll take 'em on one at a time.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> .........
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,

Guess you answered your own question, lol.  

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oye...

Well, I did catch almost all of them! ( The Mice...) and got them to the Park some while back.

Got a few more of course who have come in since...

Endless...no way to not have them to some degree.

Anyway, 'Dove-Zilla' was really fluttering in his Warm Cage this evening, like-a-Moth, wanting to be out...so, seeing as he had not been out today, I let him out and he did quite a bit of flying and is eating now next to my elbow.

Earlier, he was doing his Dove 'Crowing' in the Cage, and that made me happy to hear...so, he is feeling better for sure.

I started him on some antibiotics last night, decideing to do a week's worth of that since he was not seeming quite back to his old self yet. So, we shall see if that helps.

Then, I after that, I will de-Worm again.

Thanks so much all for your encouragement to get out my Microscope, but so far, by the time I am done with work-things ( now, more or less, as it pushes midnight, ) I am just too pooped to feel in the right frame of mind and attention to do it...so, sometime soon I hope! But not yet...

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Dove-Zilla was definitely feeling better, even resumeing his 'Crowing'...then, has seemed to be feeling worse after a couple days, not Crowing, looking like he is not feeling well...and in this also, he seems to sort of go up and down with how he is feeling.

But, after the Worming he did show definite improvement.

He is eating fine, pooping fine...but has lost 10 Grams, weighing 90 Grams now, from his prior 100 Grams when I started this thread.

I started him on "DIVET" ( Sulfadiazynum Trimethoprinium ) yesterday with a regimen that would last 5 to 7 days if I were to continue it....but I somehow have a feeling that this is not a good medication for him, or not the right medicine for him, even though it is a good one for "Bacterial infections, Salmonella, E. coli, and respiratory infections".

Could he be mildly allergic to Sulfa Drugs?


Anyway, he had not thrown up for several days, at least not that I know of...then, sometime after I gave him his little wedge-of-Pill, not long after, he threw up, then threw up again later last night. I could not find the Pill or traces of it as such in his throw-up, but, who knows.

Anyway, I am thinking maybe this is not the right medicine, anyway.

I do have a bottle of "Doxtvet~P" ( Doxycycline Hydrochloride 15mg per Tablet)

And my feeling is that 'this' is what I should be useing.

Being as the instructions say "One Tablet per day, Orally, for 5 - to - 7 days" and it is for 'Racing Pigeons' who we must expect weigh 400 to 500 Grams, yes? And Dove-Zilla weighs "90" Grams now, I would give him a slight forth, or a fifth of a Tablet.

Just now, as I type, he looks like his old self...smooth Feathers, energetic poise and stance, enthusiastically eating, then flew up to my shoulder...

He seems to go up-and-down, looking allright, then looking not-so-allright.

Anyway, any ideas, advice, conjecture or other on this?

Think it would be okay to start him on the 'Doxyvet~P' later tonight, even though he had his (correct size portion of ) the other Pill this afternoon?

In the mid 20s tonight..so kind of chilly here. He seems fine on my shoulder for now, but I will put him back into his Warm-Cage for his nights sleep...


Thanks everyone!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

I am sorry to here this little guy is still having some troubles.

In the digestive system the way it was explained to me by my vet was, in the GI system you have the crop, the proventriculus then the ventriculus. To put it simply, when there are problems sometimes further down in the GI track it causes things to get backed up to the crop where the crop acts almost like a backed up sink in a house. Since it is easy to see the crop in stasis, since it's not moving, you sometimes think that there lies the problem, and it very might be just in the crop sometimes, however, sometimes the problem lies further down in the GI, in the proventriculus, ventriculus and intestinal track.

The bird senses that things are not moving through and regurgitates or vomits back up food to take pressure off the GI system. Now the problem is trying to figure out where and what is causing the problem. The most likely causes being bacterial, protozoan (canker and coccidiosis), fungal and worms. This why Pidgey was trying to get you to dig out the microscope as it would help narrow things down. The problem being however, even if you did get it going it really is hard to determine sometimes what are "normal" levels of background pathogens such as trichomonads and cocci oocysts (unless there really is a bad infection going on with tons of pathogens showing up) and it is hard without some experience to tell the difference between cocci oocysts and worm eggs. I am able to say this because I recently began using a microscope to help with diagnosis and it sure is not easy to start separating all that is going on in a smear or float, but I guess only through use and experience will this become easier and accurate.

Phil, I know this is a Dove and I know how high strung and difficult they can be at times, but if you could stop the seeds for a while and get him on some Kaytee it will help take some pressure off the GI track and get his weight back up (share the soup;-)). I think this is a case where a few real tests might need to be done, a crop and fecal smear and fecal float, as well as a few blood tests to see what is going on with him.

Phil you have the math right I believe for the Doxy, but I do not know if it would be a drug of choice for GI problems, if you had Amoxicillin around this may be a better choice for now until tests are run, but you could try the Doxy and see. If you had some Nystatin around at this point I would be starting him on this as well (best would be holding off on any meds if you think this is possible until any tests are run as to not interfere with their accuracy).

I hope this is of some help to you, please keep us informed and good luck with this little guy,

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Thank you...

I have not noticed any Crop stasis, but then too, whie he has been eating, and eating with enthusiasm at times, he is not eating as much as 'usua', and his Crop has not been anywhere near full at any occasion of my checking it.

I did examine his Crop ast night, by pressing and ightly pinching it and so on, seeing if I could feel any hint of a foreign object that might be making probems.

Possiby, he has somej foreign object further down.

I do not have any viabe Bystatin far as I know, but I wil look. The stuff I did have was given to me by my Vet, and I believe was mixed with Fruit Juice and had a not very long shelf life even when refrigerated.

I wil check the days elapsed since I Wormed him, and see if it is nearing the time for the next round.

I have mosty been just so chiled lately, and harried with work-responsibilites, it has nt felt ike I had any 'room' in my head for the Microscope. I know this sounds silly, but I can just get overwhelmed and sort of shut-down when too many things are all going on at once.

Right now I need to seep a while, so...later to-day sometime, I will see if I can get into the MIcroscope and set it up and so on and make some floats.

Thanks!

Till next...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Some sticking keys, sorry for the typos there, was pretty tired earlier and did not notice them.

Yeah...some 'soup' would be a good idea for Dove-Zilla, so will do...

Although he is one very determined Wiggle-Worm if held in any other way than 'Hand Nest'...he truely hates me opening his Beak to give-a-pill portion, or to look at the inside of his mouth and throat, so...trying to tube feed THIS Dove fellow, is kinda not so 'easy' compared even to a much bigger 'Wiggle-Worm' Pigeon who at least has a relatively large esophagus and so on to get to!

I don't know what to make of his symptoms...

Did he eat some foreign non-digestable little item and it is clogging his Gizzard or low-Crop area and causing things to back-up as well as letting 'some' through?

Is he suffering an internal infection or illness of some kind?

No one else ( knock-on-wood ) of the ambient others are having anything going on...

Poops - once he got Wormed - appear normal and healthy, if smaller the last few days...but were normal size there for a while, after Worming.

Oh, yes, maybe I should do round "two" of the Wormer now?

Hmmmm...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Thanks for your help on this...

I will see about some 'Amoxicillin', and also feeding via 'the tube' some nutriotional 'Soups'.

Last few days I have not been at my best, just too much going on, not enough of me, too cold at night, and so on, and it is hard to think straight.

Can not see my Vet till Monday or Tuesday, but I will call them on Monday and see if they are open...maybe get a Blood Test done.

Dove-Zilla, weighing 90 grams or so presently, must be further down than I realized, as his pal 'Mothra', who is smaller, weighs 110 grams.

Mothra 'feels solid and dense, Dove-Zilla 'feels' hollow or too light and empty or does not feel' right when I hold him so far as his density or mass or solidity.

I feel so bad about this, he is such a wonderful Dove in every way, and a joy to have around.


I have probably wasted time pursueing incomplete regimins so far, being confused on just what TO do.

He has been anxious to be out of his Cage, but being as it has been so cold here I have not let him fly around this evening, and it is late now anyway and time for some ( more) sleep, so...

Till next, 

Thanks...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Phil, I know what you mean about so many things can be going on at once, it does seem overwhelming at times. 

Well, I was thinking, if possible, you may wan to see if your vet can also do the floats and smears for you, this will take a little pressure off you and the results will be more accurate.

I think also in the meantime some of your "soups" will keep him nourished and well hydrated until further determinations can be made for him. I know you probably have already done so, but some heat to help conserve energy might be good. Nourishment and heat will go a long way into buying some time until what's wrong with him is figured out and he can get back on the road to recovery.

Phil, I recently had one in that had some GI issues and the first thing that made me notice is she went off her feed. For some reason I had it in my mind as well that some small foreign object was ingested and stuck somewhere, but the vet said although this happens, from time to time, in these cases it is more likely the result of some infection or disease process, although I would not completely rule out an object until it has been investigated and eliminated as a possibility, as was done in my case, but it is further down the line as a causative for GI problems.

Phil, I hate to offer advice in an area that I am not confident in my expeience and the area of worming is one of them, so perhaps others can advise on whether you should do round two of worming or wait another day or so until the vet sees him.

All the best,

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Ron, 


I will wait on the second round of Worming till some time after we see the Vet to-morrow ( if possible ) and get some tests done and maybe get a better feel for what is going on.

I do not have Amoxicillin...I will order some later today Mail Order so I will have it on hand soon.

I do have a packet of 'Vita King 5 in 1' which I am surprised I forgot about, since I usualy used this when ambiguous or indistinct or who-the-heck-knows presentations showed up.

Yahhh, he has been in a nice 'Warm Cage'...at the moment, 'pacing' and wanting to come out and goof around and so on, so maybe I will let him out a little while so he can fly around with Mothra.

"Soups"...I konked out last night, had cross town matters this morning, here it is after 4:00 in the afternoon already, and I just got home...so I will get on to making him some warm-chow in a few minutes.

Had lunch with a pal, he was saying how lately his mind is shot...attention quality is poor, concentration poor, memory poor, feeling spacey and dopey and chilled all the time...we were laughing, but it is the same with me.

I started this thread 11 days ago, yet it only seems like a few days have passed.


Thanks so much..!

Till next, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

PHIL! Please take care of yourself so you can take care of your all your birds! If you get sick, who takes cares of the birds??

If YOU get sick, who takes care of you? Your birds only have limited powers!

Hope all goes well at the Vet. Since tomorrow is a holiday in some areas, will he be open??

ALL THE BEST!

COMFORTING AND HEALTHY HUGS TO ALL!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks mr squeaks...!


Well, long story short, got a set-up made for tube-feeding a Dove. My usual set-ups for Pigeons, the tubes are too large, and the small size one I cherished, I gave to someone a while back, so, had to make a new one, glad I had the stuff to do it.

Tube-fed 'Dove-Zilla' some famous 'Soup', and it went well...he did not hold it against me, and seemed actually to have enjoyed it, or at least enjoyed it once it was over...Lol...

So, got a nice meal into him anyway.

Before and after that he was looking normal all tolled, up in a Seed Bowl in free-rove, with his pal Mothra, and I was watching him graze, and though he was pecking, he was not getting the Seeds, so...

I have seen this before, when they are ill or have something 'wrong' you see them pecking and assume they are "eating"...and, sometimes they are not eating anything but 'just' pecking and not getting seeds at all or hardly at all, so always good to look closely at how they are doing in this way.

He's snoozing on my shoulder right now, and I will set him back into his Warm-Cage in a little while for the night...Mothra is snoozing on the Computer screen top...


Thanks everyone!

Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Had lunch with a pal, he was saying how lately his mind is shot...attention quality is poor, concentration poor, memory poor, feeling spacey and dopey and chilled all the time...we were laughing, but it is the same with me.
> 
> I started this thread 11 days ago, yet it only seems like a few days have passed.
> 
> ...


Why, Phil, here I was thinking that was normal behavior (for me)!  

It is called getting older but you're still too young to be called an old geezer just yet.


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Well Phil, this must definitely be something that's going around, because it sounds like me as well  .

Take care of yourself, and please keep us updated.

All the best,

Ron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, stay warm and don't run yourself down...the flu's a drag this year. Take 
care of yourself,

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Got an appointment for tomorrow afternoon with my Goog-Guy-Vet-No.1...

Dove-Zilla is looking quite chipper today, about eight nice almost normal looking poops, and no throw-up. So, looks like thr formula 'Soup' went through just fine.

He got all interested in pecking at small Seeds when I visited with him in his Warm Cage just now, so I can tell he has ben rather bored, missing social activities, even though Mothra spends a lot of time hanging out next to him with just the cage wire inbetween.

Recon I will tube-feed him again then shortly...and again tonight.


Thanks everyone!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Sounds good Phil, please keep us updated.

All the best,

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

All is well, Dove-Zilla seems his old self BUT for being so darned "light"...and only doing some few 'Crowings in the course of a day.

Headed to the Vet tomorrow late afternnoon, could not make tha app't I had yesterday, and he was not in today.

I will bring some fresh poops of course.

Appetite is good, but he is not getting the Seeds very much...I have seen this before with Pigeons, and it is kind of mysterious...

Anyway, 

Thats the update for now...!

Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lol...

I could not find any way to get Dove-Zilla TO the Vets today...no matter what I tried, Carrying the Cage, Draped Cage, putting him in a largish Bag with eye-holes, in-a-box, no matter what, he'd flip out, "EXPLODE" Dove-Fashion, and he hated it...none of these let me even get anywhere, not even a few feet, or not even to where I had the thing 'closed' for that matter.

He loves his Warm Cage, 'Night Cage' or what you will which he had never been in before being ill, but Lord help you if you try and carry it with him IN it, even for a few inches...so...

Since I could not solve the logistical necessity of bringing him to the Vets, I just called and talked with the Vet instead.

Long and short of it, it seems to us both that Dove-Zilla is back to his old self now, with some weight to gain back...and D-Z is working on 'that' with a good deal of successful pecking and keeping his Crop full. He made at least a dozen good poops over night, after my not tube feeding him yesterday, so, all that was on his own eating, and he is eating better today than yesterday.

So, who knows...maybe he ate something "bad" there a couple weeks ago, and it messed him up for a little while, and took a while to et 'through', or, whatever it was anyway, it seems to be no longer making problems.

I think I should Worm him again in a few days, just on principle, and, of course, to keep my fingers crossed in general.

Anyway, he has been flying around normally ( meaning, flying around a lot, goofing with Mothra in how they like to do things together, like fast dramatic entrances into the room at full tilt, then stopping on a Dime at the feed bowl, and other flying stunt things, and he has not seemed 'sleepy' the last couple days, or at least no more than anyone else around here Cat-Nap wise, so...)

Whew..!

I sure hope thats all there is/was to "this"...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

I'm glad to hear that Dove-Zilla is improving and even though you couldn't get her to the vet's. Sounds like quite the flighty and high strung little thing for sure!


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Phil,

Glad to hear Dove-Zilla is feeling better. Well, I guess I would monitor his weight for the next little while and if you are not happy with his progress, and if he will let you without too much problem, you could supplement him to help get some weight back on him. As well, if he shows any signs of still being a little off over the next few days, you could always collect some fresh droppings to take down for a float and smear to be run on.

Phil, I don't know if you remember, but last spring I had my first Dove in with what turned out to be either Coccidiosis and/or Canker, I treated for both. Although I probably have anywhere from 20-40 Mourning Doves visit our backyard feeder daily for years, this was the first one that ever needed some help. I could easily picked him up to treat and feed him, his weight was down so I was supplementing. 

At the time you told me it would be a good idea if I could drape the inside of his cage, about 20x20x20, with toweling or foam as a precaution. 



> If you have a regular kind of cage, line the inside top of it with soft 'egg crate' or other foam rubber or several layers of soft cloths...since, if he recovers, he will at some point launch straight up and hit the inside top of the cage and either break his neck, or knock himself cold....so good padding 'there' is a must


Seemed a little odd to me, but I did it because I knew you had a great deal of experience with Doves and if you thought this was a wise thing to do, I should do it. Well, 4-5 days later I went to give this docile, calm little bird, (he had be having little moments of feistyness, but was still very easy to handle), his meds and feed him and he just EXPLODED. He bounced off every corner in that cage for to me what seemed like minutes, but I am sure was only 10-15 seconds, and if I did not have the toweling up inside his cage I am sure he would have surely broken something.

I was in a bit of shock after this episode and did not disturb him be for a few hours. I went back, closed the drapes and turned off the lights, I then covered his cage with a heavy blanket to block out any light at all and used a flashlight, covered with a towel to just let out a bare minimum of light to see, and was able to reach in so he could not see my hand coming and catch him. I only did this because he had a few days left in his course of meds, but stopped the feedings. To tell you the the truth, I was so relieved to be able to let him go home when he finshed his meds, as everyday he was there since he became "himself" again I was truly nervous I would hurt him or he would hurt himself. So a little late Phil, but thanks for the warning.

Sounds like a really wonderful little guy, please keep us updated.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Is there any possibility that Dove-Zilla was just play-acting through it all to get the luxuries that he now enjoys?

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Ron, what you said about padding the cage is so true with doves. The babies are ok but if anyone ever gets in adult dove it is an essential part of the recovery process to pad the cage because they will go "bonkers".

Phil, I'm really happy your little one is improving.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ron, 


Lol, "Yes", they DO "EXPLODE!" as you now know! ( or learned 'then'...)

And it is hell to witness it! Painful for us since we ars toitally helpless to stop them.


Dove-Zilla of course is all the rest of the time a completely tranquil, gentle Creature who shows no flightyness, and neighther does Mothra.

But, try putting him into a Cardboard Box, or into anything, and instantly, he "explodes"...


With the new to me Wild Dove adults, when I get them, usually I set their cages off to the side so I will not pass close to it...and when changing Water or Seed Bowls, I do it with the lights "out" and in the very dim ambient light, just as you described, and I do it s-l-o-w-l-y too, silently...and even then they know something is up, but they seem to stay put and just pace a little or stand dead 'still' as they wait for whatever it is to pass.

In fact, when taking Wild Adult new-to-me Doves to the Vet, I never had any of them "EXPLODE" like Dove-Zilla was, and in fact, I can not recall every having them even be especially hard to handle, ironically...!

It is far more likely to be a problem when one is approaching them and they are confined, than once one has them settled down in ones hands and is doing the exam or proceedure, where they might squirm somewhat off and on, but overall have been very co-operative in my recollections.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Phil,
> 
> Is there any possibility that Dove-Zilla was just play-acting through it all to get the luxuries that he now enjoys?
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 

This is possible...

At some point when I was not looking, he may well have sent off to a Corespondant's School, for a Home Study Course on 'Method Acting', and, then, made his debut on the figurative Stage.

The throwing up Seeds with bile was especially compelling, if I do say so myself...!

I'd say he's ready for his Guild Card...!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Ron, what you said about padding the cage is so true with doves. The babies are ok but if anyone ever gets in adult dove it is an essential part of the recovery process to pad the cage because they will go "bonkers".
> 
> Phil, I'm really happy your little one is improving.



Thanks Maggie!


And yahhhh, the soft egg-crate foam rubber for the inside Cage top...really pays off when one has one do that.

I learned this the hard way of course, and it is burned into my memory. The Dove SEEMED fine one minute, then 'BAM!' launched himself straight up with tremenduous force for his size, and fell nose-down like one of those Drug smullger Planes crashed in the Brazillian Forests, his Tail sticking almost straiught 'up'. lodged in some cloth and whatever else on the cage bottom, knocked out cold as a Mackeral.

He seemed fine after some time to come to, but it scared the heck out of me, and right then I decided to get some soft foam rubber...

Yeeeeeeesh!

Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


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