# post-canker mucus?



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

I have a guest who had bad canker when she came to stay. After 3 weeks of Ronsec/Spartrix, the canker is pretty much gone, but there's a lot of mucus in her mouth. She had been wheezing for days and days until I finally figured out to swab her throat last Wednesday, after which the wheezing stopped. I've been swabbing her out whenever I feed her, but I'm wondering if this continued mucus is normal? A couple of people have suggested maybe yeast in the mouth or a respiratory infection. She had a 6-7 day course of doxy and has been getting Nystatin in her tube feeds. 

I'm wondering if the mucus is related to after-effects of the canker? If so, when can I expect it to dissolve? She's looking good otherwise and wants to peck seeds, but I'm nervous to offer her any. I did give her some millet a few days ago, and the mucus was very apparent in her attempts to eat, but she must have managed to swallow quite a few because there was only one stuck when I looked in her beak. 

Would it be safe to offer her bigger seeds, or should I wait until the mucus is gone? She's quite underweight (200 grams), so I'd like for her to start eating seeds as soon as she can.

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

After three weeks of treatment there should not be any more mucus. Is there any smell to it? Could be fungus or some other infection. My Yodi still had a fungal infection after two weeks of ketoconazole, it resolved oly after switching to Diflucan. 
Best would be if a vet could do a swab and see what is going on.
You could offer him some seeds but watch him to make sure they are not getting stuck in throat.

Reti


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Reti, I haven't noticed any smell, but I'll have to take a closer look--er, smell--tonight.

I do see some pinpoint yellow dots in the back of the throat. I wonder if the canker isn't 100% gone. 

I've started swabbing her mouth with Nystatin, but I noticed that immediately after feeding, the mucus is back. Strange???

Does the throat swab have to be fresh? I'm wondering if I can take a swab from home and drop it off at the vet to be analyzed (it's times like this that I wish I had a microscope).

Haven't offered her any more seeds. When I open her beak and see the phlegm, it just seems like a fly trap for seeds.

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you've got some probiotics, try painting the inside of the beak with a solution of them.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> Hi all,
> I have a guest who had bad canker when she came to stay.
> 
> *After 3 weeks of Ronsec/Spartrix, the canker is pretty much gone, but there's a lot of mucus in her mouth*.
> ...


Hi Jennifer,
If you are still seeing ' pinpoint yellow dots' in the back of the throat, I suspect the canker is not gone.

From my experience, mucus is a sign of advanced canker, rather than an after effect.
Your little patient very well may have internal canker that you are unable to detect visibly.

Cindy


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> From my experience, mucus is a sign of advanced canker, rather than an after effect.
> Your little patient very well may have internal canker that you are unable to detect visibly.


Hi Cindy,

I'm keeping up with the Spartrix. I'm assuming it's pretty safe to keep them on it for such a long time?

I think she's had the mucus all along--I guess I'm wondering if it makes sense that nearly all of the canker is gone, but not the mucus itself? Someone else suggested maybe the canker is still in the crop. Poor girl is such a slight thing, but she does look tons better than she used to. And she must be feeling much better too. She seems to be under the impression that she's well enough to go home--she got away from me this AM and flew toward the window but was so out of breath after. 

Pidgey,

Have some probiotics and will swab with those starting tonight. 

Thanks all,
Jennifer


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> * *I'm keeping up with the Spartrix. I'm assuming it's pretty safe to keep them on it for such a long time?*
> 
> ...


* The longest I've ever kept a bird on Spartrix was 5 days. Even in the most severe cases. 
Opinions may differ, but that's the course I take.

** I would tend to agree with that.

*** That's a very good sign. 

**** You might want to keep her confined to her cage as stress can, & usually does, intensify the canker.
I would suggest placing her in a quite area of your home, away from family & animal traffic.

Cindy


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I tend to agree that the bird has a fungal infection. Rather than swabing her throat with nystatin, she needs to swallow it because she probably has it in her crop too.
I agree with Cindy that 3 weeks is a long time to treat for canker and what you may be seeing is yeast instead of canker.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

She's been giving the bird Nystatin and working on getting it from the beak on down, too. I suggested she add the probiotics because they actually secrete some low-level hydrogen peroxide on mucus membranes that inhibits fungal growth as well. In an email, I'd also touched on the subject that the bird might benefit from a systemic antifungal but that it'd kinda' have to be up to the vet on that one. The bird's been on strong anti-cankers for weeks now so you kinda' have to wonder what could still be sticking around seeing as how anti-canker drugs go systemic and permeate necrotic tissue fairly well (the nitroimidazoles). It's one of those times where a swab might show up something else significant that's been missed so far or, hopefully, answer some other questions about the source of the mucus.

It is a fact that some individuals have bad immune systems and so we could be seeing something like that, including an allergy.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi all,

Yes, the bird has been getting Nystatin in her tube feedings for at least a week now (probably longer--would have to check my notes to be sure), and I've been doing separate Nystatin syringes too. The rehab place near me, I'm nearly 100% certain, will not dispense systemic antifungals other than Nystatin, so I'd have to see an avian vet for Diflucan, etc., and the closest avian vets are quite a distance away (which is difficult with no car--I don't have $100s to spend on cabs, which is literally what it costs, and I don't want to drag the poor bird on several trains to get there).

It's interesting that many of you mention Spartrix only needing a short course, because in the cases I've seen, it *never* goes down in a matter of 5 days (the rehabbers at the clinic have also said it takes much longer). It's one of the reasons they started using Ronsec instead of Spartrix (Ronsec being supposedly stronger). Another canker bird from a while back was treated for close to *6* weeks before he was well enough to be released. So maybe NYC canker cases are just worse than elsewhere?

Also, just a note that she *is* confined to a cage in a corner of the room (where she can see out the window). It wasn't my intention to let her fly across the room; she simply got out of her towel restraint (probably after growing weary of me sticking swabs down her throat).

Thanks all!
Jennifer


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> in the cases I've seen, it *never* goes down in a matter of 5 days (the rehabbers at the clinic have also said it takes much longer).


As far as I am aware Spartrix kills the trichomonads that cause canker within a few days, but it can take up to 10 days for the canker nodule to disappear.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To me, getting out of breath after relatively little exercise is pretty doggone worrisome.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

jenfer said:


> *It's interesting that many of you mention Spartrix only needing a short course, because in the cases I've seen, it *never* goes down in a matter of 5 days* *(the rehabbers at the clinic have also said it takes much longer). *
> 
> Thanks all!
> Jennifer


Perhaps I should have been more clear. I treat canker for a max of 5 days, however as your rehabbers, & Cynthia, mentioned, it can take longer than the 5 day dose of Spartrix for the canker to completely reslove itself.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. 



cyro51 said:


> *As far as I am aware Spartrix kills the trichomonads that cause canker within a few days, but it can take up to 10 days for the canker nodule to disappear.*
> 
> Cynthia


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pidgey,

Well, it was quite a lot of flying after 3 weeks of inactivity. She flew to one corner, then to the other, then back to the one, then into the closet, then back to the corner (I think this is when I saw the panting), then to the other corner, then back to the closet (and I may be forgetting a "then to the other corner" here). After I finally retrieved her, she wasn't panting anymore.

Cynthia,

The canker nodule(s) didn't go down completely after 10 days in this case--it took longer, probably closer to 15-16. One avian vet mentioned to me recently that it can take a looong time for canker to go down (but I didn't clarify with her what her definition of "looong" was).

Thanks!
Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, she inhaled some Nystatin just now. Couldn't have been more than .6 ml, but it came out her nostrils. Swabbed out her mouth some. Don't know what else to do (I'm letting her rest right now).

Jennifer


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Just keep on it....you are doing fine.

If the mucus persists or worsens, then the birdie really needs a vet.

Am curious if anyone had experience where Spartrix wasn't acting as strongly as expected ? Perhaps a switch to another antibiotic/med ?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Getting liquids in the sinuses above isn't as bad as getting them down the trachea. Have you ever snorted out some Coke (Coca-Cola, not the other stuff) when someone got to the punchline at exactly the wrong moment?

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, she's breathing fine now. She didn't look too good for a little bit. If I never see yellow, sticky liquid oozing from a bird's nares again, it will be too soon.

I do see some yellowy areas on the left side of her throat (where the huge canker lump was initially). So I'm wondering if these little remnants of canker are enough to produced the continued mucus.

I decided to let her have some seeds instead of her tube meal tonight, and she was able to swallow most of them (except three pieces of barley, but she might have even eventually swallowed those if I gave her enough time). The mucus is definitely getting in the way, though. Will check her later tonight to see how much she really ate and maybe tube a bit before bed.

Thanks all,
Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Just an update on Dot:

She wheezes a bit when I pick her up and still has mucus in her mouth/throat that takes a couple of swabs to clean out. Despite that, she's able to swallow seeds and only sometimes gets a few stuck, so I've reduced the tube feedings (she's only being tubed a tiny bit now; thought it might be better to gradually stop rather than quit altogether). Her poops look better, and she's even gained 20 grams!

I still have her on Spartrix in case there's canker in the crop; she does have a few very small spots in her mouth still.

Jennifer


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, Dot's been to the vet now. It turns out she has laryngeal paralysis! (Her glottis stays open partially and never contracts.) 

The vet said this was unlikely to be related to the past trich. He did say maybe she had had concurrent trich and pox (there is some scarification in the back of her throat), but I don't know if pox can cause such a paralysis. The mucus secretions he thought were coming up from her airway, and because of the paralysis, she was having trouble swallowing it. Lungs/air sacs clear.

He said the damage was likely permanent and that is was possible that she'd learn to self-limit her flying to compensate for the hyperventilation (she's eager to be released, but I don't feel good about releasing her in this condition). He's going to research possible causes of the paralysis.

Anyone encountered anything like this before?

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

First one I've heard of, but there's a lot bigger world out there than my little pond. I can imagine it easily enough. It might not be a bad idea to only let her have somewhat larger seeds and nothing small enough to fall into the glottis.

Pidgey


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Good idea on the seeds. The smallest seeds in the mixes I have here are milo. She hasn't seemed to have any trouble so far aside from a pea or grain of milo getting stuck in mucus every now and then. The mucus *is* less than before, so maybe she's learning to manage it by swallowing. 

Once in a while she makes weird breathing noises; sounds not really like a wheeze but kind of like a reverse sneeze. I've noticed her do it once after drinking, so it's likely she sometimes gets a bit of water down her trachea.


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