# Socialize your 'Peeper' to their Wild Kin



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any Baby or pre-fledgling Youngster one is hand raising, or, one which is being raised by non-release-able Parents...if it shall be released once grown and mature enough, or even if not, even Handicapped and never to be released, the 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' needs to be Socialized to their Out Door Wild Kin in order to grow up well and be more whole.

If to be released later, this will make all the difference in the world, for their being indeed 'Release-able' and able to thrive, and get along.


This needs to be done long before they are flying, or, with whatever time one has to do it, prior to their Flying.


They will then learn to Peck and Self Feed, with no 'weaning' problems.

And, they learn the Wild modes of alertness, communication, assertion, and other nuances and ways, of their Wild adult Kin.

They can not learn these things from a person.


Set Seeds on the Ground...set the 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' down among the Seeds and among the Wild Pigeons...stand back about ten feet, and keep your HGand and Arms STILL and 'down'...stay standing there quietly, watching your 'Baby', so the 'Peeper' or 'Squeaker' can see you are 'there'...


Find a place you like, and which the Wild Pigeons already Graze at normally...use the same place each time, and, later, this same place is where you will do your 'Release'.



Start as soon as 14 days old...and let them learn and have the experience, and in increments, for the experience to accrue and build.



Forays should be no less than fifteen minutes each, and a half hour is fine too...with as many forays as you can do, one a day is fine, over however long you have, before they start to Fly.


Then cease...


Fifteen or thirty forays is fine...the more the better!

If all you have time for, before they are Flying, is five or six such forays, then do what you can...even four, five, six such occasions, will be very very important to their present, and their future.



More in further Posts as the Thread continues.


To-day's Images of a lovely little 'Peeper' having her first Foray.


Captions are below each image -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/socializing-peepers/


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for sharing your "early-intervention" tecnique for socializing the youngsters with their future flock. 

That baby is so cute among its "kin"!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

The only problem is when you don't have a safe place to let it walk around :S.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pawbla said:


> The only problem is when you don't have a safe place to let it walk around :S.




I don't understand what you are saying...please explain?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well done, Phil!

My squeaker, *Jo*, brought to me yesterday, needs to visit the Vet before I let him out with the big boys & girls! Looks like a pox lesion by his beak. 

Have him on a heating pad in my cat carrier that has top and side openings. 

While he is very quiet, he's eating well and his poops look fantastic! He also has a possible leg problem and I don't like the way he's feathering unless time will fix. He also looks like he has some feathers growing on his toes...interesting.

I have been using your nipple feeding method but decided to see if I could jury-rig something a little more efficient for a "bigger" eater. Fitted a baby nipple at the falange end of a larger syringe, cut off the nub on the other end and reamed it large enough to fit the opening of a suction syringe so I can add food as he empties his "feeding" tube. So far, so good. Amazing what one can do when desparate!

Also thought of buying a small baby bottle but decided to try my idea first.

Since I have a flock I feed in the morning, he would have "friends." However, I just released VALentino, who was growing back some flight feathers and he was just fine. I had him on my balcony and he attracted a few friends...His friends _still_ visit my feeder, which is _supposed_ to be for the doves, sparrows and finches...*sigh* VAL roosts on one of my wooden balcony supports at night!

Oh well, when life throws me a "curve," I just put out seeds! 

Oh yes, and I am now the proud owner of the lovely Rae Charles who lived with Cindy (AZWhitefeather) for a number of years. Rae is such a love and doing just fine "talking" back and forth with my crew!

Love and Hugs
Shi and the gang


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Looks like a youngster getting the hang of what feeding is about real quick, Phil.

Is that your own visiting backyard feral flock?

When I had a pair, years back, who raised plenty of young on the balcony, the kids soon got into the art of pecking for their seed. They had some growing to do before they could handle small peanuts, though - for a while they just pushed them around with their beaks and ran after them 

John


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Very Nice, Phil.

The one caution I would add to your well-written opening post is this: there comes a time when the baby is capable of actually gaining flight but still far too young for a release. 

In other words...the baby will gain decent flying ability BEFORE they are ready to be out there on their own as part of a flock.

One should be aware of this...because it is possible to _inadvertently give the bird the opportunity to take off and land out of range of you _(the caregiver) to retrieve him/her.

Then that'd be a big pickle. Not good for the baby...nor for the person who has so dedicated themselves to helping the youngster.

Just wanted to add that important asterisk.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> I don't understand what you are saying...please explain?


I am guessing Pawbla means that some folks don't have a safe, somewhat enclosed or finite area where...should the baby start to wander... they could be easily retrieved.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> I don't understand what you are saying...please explain?


For doing that, you need to have either a backyard with a lot of pigeons (limited by a wall, not chicken wire or similar), or a more or less safe zone on the street. If there isn't any, you can't do this.

Imagine you were doing this on a sidewalk and the little guy, for some reason, decides the sidewalk is not so interesting and runs towards the street. They can run pretty fast... and get ran over by a car.

Or you were doing this on a park and a brave hawk decides it's a nice meal even though you're standing next to it. Or a feral cat.

Or if you were in your backyard and your neighbor has a cat, and the only limit between your yard and his is chicken wire and some plants.

If you don't have this problems it's a very good idea. Actually, I know a person who does this (the lady that released my rescues). It's definitely more natural and safer!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> Very Nice, Phil.
> 
> The one caution I would add to your well-written opening post is this: there comes a time when the baby is capable of actually gaining flight but still far too young for a release.
> 
> ...




Yes...


This will vary with the fledgling, and, the person raising them.

Though in any event, one does not wish to invite a condition where a young Pigeon, too young yet for release, would fly off if the Flock is startled, or whatever, and then pose a problem for getting them back.



Normally of course, a Fledgling Pigeon learns to Peck and to Drink and to acquire the Wild modes of response and awareness and socialization, to acquire self assertion and circumspect, after however many successive Flying forays with their Dad-Pigeon, for increasingly further flights or explores and learning, under his supervision.


Since we can not do this in that way, we have to do it's equivelent, when the Youngster is much younger...and not flying yet.


I have had 100 percent excellent results with doing this, every time, every Baby or youngster I am raising, or, which is being raised by non-releaseable Parents who can fly somewhat.


Non-release-able parents who can not fly, who have Babys, they and their Babys may be brought out to some nice Setting of course, so they and their Babys may enjoy some Out of Doors time together, and, to socialize with a Feral/Wild Flock...where, of course, their caregiver-person supervises them.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pawbla said:


> For doing that, you need to have either a backyard with a lot of pigeons (limited by a wall, not chicken wire or similar), or a more or less safe zone on the street. If there isn't any, you can't do this.



Any Park, Vacant Lot, Yard, Rail Road Track ajascency, Field, Meadow, whatever...yes, of course, have some common sense about it, it is important...and, elect a place where Wild Pigeons already Graze in safety and comfort...and, in this, one is also electing the setting and place where the youngster, later, will be released.


This is meant to be intentional, and, integrated for many things at the same time, which contribute to the youngster's education, independence, and future.


Elect a place with that in mind.






> Imagine you were doing this on a sidewalk and the little guy, for some reason, decides the sidewalk is not so interesting and runs towards the street. They can run pretty fast... and get ran over by a car.



See above...




> Or you were doing this on a park and a brave hawk decides it's a nice meal even though you're standing next to it. Or a feral cat.



Don't forget Lightening, Meteorties, tardy Space Shuttle debris, Terrorists, Earthquake, Typhoons, Stampedes, Atomic Bombs...Hail...Wildebeests...Flesh eating Bacteria, or those giant 'Worms' one saw in the film 'Dune'.




> Or if you were in your backyard and your neighbor has a cat, and the only limit between your yard and his is chicken wire and some plants.



The point of the care giver "supervising" the outing, includes that they would "Supervise" the outing...which also includes electing a place and setting which is appropriate for the outing to occur, and for the setting to be continually used untill the Pigeon is released there at that Setting, with THOSE WIld PIgeons who Graze and Forrage there...


A Setting where Wild Pigeons alread routinely Graze and Forrage in comfort and safety.


That is the idea.


Possibly, some care-givers will need for someone to "Supervise" them..!




> If you don't have this problems it's a very good idea. Actually, I know a person who does this (the lady that released my rescues). It's definitely more natural and safer!




Yes, the location should be elected intentionally, and have the amenities for the youngster now and for his future, since it will be to THAT setting, that he is released to, once old enough.

One must think 'ahead'...


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

pdpbison said:


> Any Park, Vacant Lot, Yard, Rail Road Track ajascency, Field, Meadow, whatever...yes, of course, have some common sense about it, it is important...and, elect a place where Wild Pigeons already Graze in safety and comfort...and, in this, one is also electing the setting and place where the youngster, later, will be released.


*IF you have access to any of those places freely.* Sorry, but here pigeons don't graze in vacant lots with grass that is fifty cms tall. And not everybody has a meadow or a field nearby. I don't.



pdpbison said:


> Don't forget Lightening, Meteorties, tardy Space Shuttle debris, Terrorists, Earthquake, Typhoons, Stampedes, Atomic Bombs...Hail...Wildebeests...Flesh eating Bacteria, or those giant 'Worms' one saw in the film 'Dune'.


The sarcasm helps it a lot.
Again, sorry, I don't know where you live, but I've seen cats taking down birds two meters away from me, and I don't think they'd be scared if I was nearer them. One was in MY park, scaring MY rescues, *less than one meter away from me.* The only problem they'd have if I was nearer is that I'd scare birds away. And I'd scare the wild birds too if I was too close to them.
Oh, and, same goes for dogs with no leash. Actually, a person I know got her bird killed today because a dog randomly popped in her room and in just one second he killed the dove.



pdpbison said:


> The point of the care giver "supervising" the outing, includes that they would "Supervise" the outing...which also includes electing a place and setting which is appropriate for the outing to occur, and for the setting to be continually used untill the Pigeon is released there at that Setting, with THOSE WIld PIgeons who Graze and Forrage there...


Well, *the point I was making with the previous post is that maybe, just maybe, in a parallel world called maybe fifty kilometers away from you,* such safe places *are not available*, at least not within a reasonable traveling distance (20-30 mins let's say) from your home. And spending one hour traveling plus the time that we have to stay with the bird, every day for 20 days is something that not many of us can afford.

All the examples I wrote above were *examples of "how something could go wrong" if you tried to do this when you have no safe places available.*


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pawbla said:


> *IF you have access to any of those places freely.* Sorry, but here pigeons don't graze in vacant lots with grass that is fifty cms tall. And not everybody has a meadow or a field nearby. I don't.




Okay...


I understand.



The Method I had outlined the first installment of, is not for you.


I am sorry, I would have hoped it could be for anyone interested.


The method does not suit your situation, or, does not suit you, or both.


I admit this.





> The sarcasm helps it a lot.



It was meant to be playful...sorry.



You have seemed very confusing to me, and, you have seemed unfriendly.


I have been uncomfortable trying to find a way to appease you.




> Again, sorry, I don't know where you live, but I've seen cats taking down birds two meters away from me, and I don't think they'd be scared if I was nearer them. One was in MY park, scaring MY rescues, *less than one meter away from me.* The only problem they'd have if I was nearer is that I'd scare birds away. And I'd scare the wild birds too if I was too close to them.
> Oh, and, same goes for dogs with no leash. Actually, a person I know got her bird killed today because a dog randomly popped in her room and in just one second he killed the dove.




Find a setting which will have the attributes and amenities appropriate for the well being of the Bird.


The well being of the Bird in the present, and, for their future, is the premis of the reason and method I had outlined.


The care-giver, the person raising a Baby Pigeon...is the one to elect the site and setting, according to it's qualities and attributes, according to judgement and forsight...a setting, ideally, where Wild Pigeons graze and forrage safely and in comfort and happiness, so the Baby or youngster may be with them and learn from them, as the care-giver watch and supervise, ready to intervene if necessary.


If you do not believe you can do so safely, then don't do it.


If no such place is available to you, and or if you can not find such a setting easily, or have no patience for it, I am sorry, I have done all I can...and, that is not my problem to solve, so please stop harassing me about it.





> Well, *the point I was making with the previous post is that maybe, just maybe, in a parallel world called maybe fifty kilometers away from you,* such safe places *are not available*, at least not within a reasonable traveling distance (20-30 mins let's say) from your home. And spending one hour traveling plus the time that we have to stay with the bird, every day for 20 days is something that not many of us can afford.




I am not responsible for solving your financial situation, logistical situation, or living situation.


Please stop trying to make them my problem.





> All the examples I wrote above were *examples of "how something could go wrong" if you tried to do this when you have no safe places available.*




Yes, "things can go wrong".


I admit the method as I had outlined, is not for you.


Please, no more of this.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Phil, please stop. Pawbla made some points .. Phil, while you had/have terrific information for people, you sometimes make it very difficult for them to implement. I think this is one of those times, so let's just stop. Please ..

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How can I possibly make it easier for 'them' ( 'Pawbla' ) to 'impliment' Terry?


I am sorry if their circumstance does not offer the option of locating a setting with appropriate amenity for a Pigeon youngster to enjoy opportunity to be wirh adult Wild Pigeons in a safe setting the care-giver can supervise.


The method is MEANT for people who CAN do it...it is premised on, and intended for, and MEANT FOR people who CAN locate an appropriate setting for it to be done.


I am sorry, what else can I possible owe anyone with this?


If someone has no place to do it, why do I need to be getting so much grief over it?


I can not help them with that.


I do not have a solution for them.



Help me please -


You tell them whatever it is they need.


You solve it for them.


I do not know how.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> I am guessing Pawbla means that some folks don't have a safe, somewhat enclosed or finite area where...should the baby start to wander... they could be easily retrieved.



Maybe so.


I have never experienced that problem.


I have never used any 'enclosed' area.


I used to use Parks...


Then, I have used the Courtyard here, which is a 1/4 Acre Lot with a few small buildings on it...and a Feral Wold Flock who visits daily.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Thank you for sharing your "early-intervention" tecnique for socializing the youngsters with their future flock.
> 
> That baby is so cute among its "kin"!



Thanks Tressa!


We did another round to-day, and he seemed to enjoy it very much, once again...doing his ground-hugging way of stretching his Neack way out, and Pecking. He seems very comfortable.


This has always been a very happy and delicate and beautiful phase to me, of having these 'Peeper Social Hours' with the Wild Pigeons.


I actually have an older Fledgling who has been part of this along with the 'Peeper', but he is so grown-up looking already, he just blends in with the adults, unless one look close.


I would never risk this with a near fledgling new to me, who was not well comfortable with me, or, or who would not come when called, or pay attention to me.


But, whatever I had originally thought to write as a second installment, seems hard to think about now, so, I dunno...we'll see.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Pawbla made some points .. Phil, while you had/have terrific information for people, you sometimes make it very difficult for them to implement. I think this is one of those times ..
> 
> Terry


Mmmmmm - Have to agree as far as tone the thread was veering towards - sorry - but all Pawbla was doing was pointing out that people in more Urban situations cannot really implement such an acclimation plan in this way - too many dangers to the youngster (and every one she mentioned is quite real and not farfetched) Don't quite understand why that particular position should become highly debatable or worthy of 'tit for tat' - it's a good point and a lot of members here live in cities where it wouldn't be advisable to let the youngster wander freely (even if supervised by a human). In such cases one can just use a decent cage and allow the ferals to feed all around it (oftentimes the more curious ones actually hop on top - not sure if they are wondering what that young'un is doing in there or just eyeing the food inside !!!) Good thoughts noted by PD which just need to be tweaked given certain contexts


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Jaye said:


> all Pawbla was doing was pointing out that people in more Urban situations cannot really implement such an acclimation plan in this way


*That was the point of my post :/.* I was not asking you to solve this for me, I just wanted to point out that _this is a really good method_ but not _everybody_ can use it. They shouldn't, at least. I can't, for example, and I'm sure a person right in the middle of a more or less big city can't.
The good thing really big cities have, is that they usually have at least one park that is used for pigeon-feeding. There are many famous parks that have hundreds and hundreds of pigeons. They don't have a lot of feral cats in really big cities (too much traffic and stuff) so it is possible to do this. But for cities "in the middle" - where there are hawks and feral cats, plenty of stray dogs, etc., it's not something you can do. And pigeons are much wilder in these places, they do not allow you to be close to them (another problem we have, and a reason we can't watch the young pigeon closely, thus taking the risk of not being fast enough if a predator appears).
Then there are small towns, with plenty of free space, way less cars, and possibly a nice feeding location nearby. Less stray and feral animals because of smaller pet population.
It all depends where you live.

And sorry for taking your sarcasm in a wrong way, but you seemed to think that a feral cat couldn't possibly hunt right in front of your face.



pdpbison said:


> If someone has no place to do it, why do I need to be getting so much grief over it?


Because you asked me about it. Again, I didn't ask you to solve this for me, I just explained how somebody could not have a safe place. If I may quote:



pdpbison said:


> Pawbla said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem is when you don't have a safe place to let it walk around :S.
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pawbla,



What has gone wrong here, is that you keep insisting to try and destroy any value my Thread could have had, by challenging me with exigencies which are already ruled out by the very premis of the Missive to begin with.


The entire implicit and explicit PREMIS of the Missive began with the care giver electing and cultivating an intentional, safe, appropriate Setting and amenities for the present and the future of any Babys they will Socialize with or to it.


Yet you insist on interjecting examples of the antithesis of the premis, dramatizing them, and throwing them into my face.



If a person can not locate or provide an appropriate setting and amenity, they can just accept that silently, with no need to attack and insult me over it.



If you lack the means of providing an appropriate setting, all you had to do was recognise that, silently, and not try and make it my fault by degrading and assulting or trying to invalidate me in ways which belie and deny and contradict the very premis which the Missive and the gesture of my sharing it are based on.


Please just accept the Missive as being something I wanted to share, which may not be convenient or possible for everyone to emulate...and stop using it as a whipping boy for destructive criticisms which insist to deny I ever had or stated any premis or conditions for it, at all.

If you had bothered even reading it, to grasp the Premis, you would have found no need for any of those examples which contradict the premis.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Jaye said:


> Mmmmmm - Have to agree as far as tone the thread was veering towards - sorry - but all Pawbla was doing was pointing out that people in more Urban situations cannot really implement such an acclimation plan in this way - too many dangers to the youngster (and every one she mentioned is quite real and not farfetched) Don't quite understand why that particular position should become highly debatable or worthy of 'tit for tat' - it's a good point and a lot of members here live in cities where it wouldn't be advisable to let the youngster wander freely (even if supervised by a human). In such cases one can just use a decent cage and allow the ferals to feed all around it (oftentimes the more curious ones actually hop on top - not sure if they are wondering what that young'un is doing in there or just eyeing the food inside !!!) Good thoughts noted by PD which just need to be tweaked given certain contexts



Hi Jaye, 


Once again -


The premis as it had been elaborated originally, excludes those conditions which contradict it...and preclude any one needing to be assailing it or me, with examples that DO contradict it.



A Cage will prevent the Baby or Youngster from acquiring, testing or learning assertiveness, necessary to overcome shyness and to compete for Seeds, defend themselves, peck Shoulder-to-Shoulder with the Wild Adults, etc.


The older Baby or Pigeon youngster needs to be LITERALLY interacting with the Wild Adults to learn to assert themselves, and be accepted and accepting as a 'peer' and 'member'.

The purpose of the Socialization and learning opportunities these forays provide for the Baby or youngster Jaye, is for them to be "with" and interacting with, the Wild Adults...under one's supervision ( of course ).

Not in a Cage set near or among Wild Adults where at best only some partial elements of the intention may be realized.


A Baby such as the one in the images I posted a Link to, who was about two weeks old, every 'Peeper' is different, and, this one had no shyness or demur, and was fine to be shoulder to shoulder, and so on...and all the Adults accepted him graciously and no one crowded or pushed him aside.


Other 'Peepers' of his age, ones much smaller in size even, I have seen getting pushed aside by the Wild Adults, where, the 'Peeper' then lashed out with his Beak, and or Wing Slapped the Adult, and, the Adult moved aside for the 'Peeper' to resume pecking 'his' ( claimed ) Seeds and or 'space'...the Adult or Adults plural, accepting the rebuke...and accepting the 'Peeper' as having the personal Authority to give it...and not crowding him any more, assuming instead, a 'shoulder to shoulder' mode of sharing the Grazing opportunity with him.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

*premise

Bleh, I'll drop it, because you clearly can't understand what I'm saying, while apparently everybody did. Sorry, no need to victimize yourself saying I insulted you and such, because I never did.
_You asked me to explain myself_, I did, and you told me I was trying to make you solve my problems (?) while _I was just explaining_ why there are situations where you can't use this method. 
I did not invalidate anything, *I clearly stated more than once that this was something useful*. My first post was something like "booh, I can't" and nothing else.
Clearly I understand what a premise ("premis") is, which are the premises in the post, and I did read the post (Ps. your "premis" in the middle, not the beginning of the post), so I gave my opinion.
If you don't like receiving opinions or if you are too sensible, don't post in a public forum. You WILL get opinions. And you may not like them. Not everybody thinks like you, or me, or anyone, we all have different opinions on different subjects.
Why do I have to "accept it silently"? Can't I say, "this is useful but I sadly can't do this"? What, is there any restriction about it on the forum? I don't think so.
So please, stop, because if everybody understands what I'm saying except for you, it's because, for once, I'm not the one having trouble communicating.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I just do not know what else to say.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Okay. We'll better not say anything else about this little discussion again, let's forget it . I'll take it was just a misunderstanding with no bad intentions from either side.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...I believe a mis-understanding is what has made our communication difficult for us both.


Possibly no one undestood the actual peramiters and discipline I intended, of what I had begun to present.


I am sorry that happened, and I apologise that I did not know how to successfully correct it.


Maybe just allow me to add some additional installments in this Thread, and to fill in more of the details and sidelights, which will clearify what it is I had in mind to present and discuss, and why...and then see what you think.



There is no way to say or describe all of it in one short missive...it has to accrue.




Phil
Lv


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