# Help! Antibiotics stopped working!



## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

One of my diamond doves (SweetPea) was breathing with his beak open last week so I took him to the vet. At this point he's at day 10 of his antibiotics, which is how long the vet said he should be on them. After about 5 days on the meds, he started cooing again, but yesterday he stopped. His breathing has improved immensely but now he's not eating or drinking and seems to be constantly swallowing something (like humans where they're swallowing their drool). His poops are TINY and dark green.

He's on 2 antibiotics (vibramycin, baytril) and 1 antifungal (nystatin). I'm wondering if that has maybe knocked out everything and left room for worms or protozoa to thrive? He is not on any medications for those things.


Another bird (New York) is doing the same thing with her mouth except her poops are very watery and bright green and her appetite is pretty strong now that she's in quarantine but before that she was puffed up and tired looking and rarely moved away from the heat lamp to get food for the last couple of days. She also vomited today but it seemed like a one off thing... she's been kind of crazy about getting out of her cage and eating weird stuff... like small rocks and dust she finds near the baseboards... calcium deficient? She laid 3 eggs last week but she's not been sitting on them, though her mate and 2 six-week old babies have been occasionally but not often and one of the eggs broke.

I have completely exhausted my vet fund (and borrowed past it) for basically the entire year in just the last month. I will do what it takes to get medicines but unfortunately I can't afford to waltz back into the vet office and order up a million tests. I do own a microscope but don't really have much of a biology background. I'm gonna try to do a fecal smear tomorrow evening with the help of google and youtube; a friend is bringing me some blank slides and NaCl sln. 


Does it make sense to treat for canker or worms if he is not better on the antibiotics? Should I treat the other bird too?

Does anyone know where I can get medications quickly? I live in Chicago, if anyone knows of a local place.

Please help! 


I uploaded some pictures of the poop here: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=2659


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Don't worm a sick bird unless you have strong reason to believe that is what is wrong. Worm medication is toxic, and the birds are already weak. I would treat for canker. It doesn't look as though they are really eating, so you need to get food into them.

What is the vet treating them for?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You should be able to get Flagyl from the vet without him/her charging you, since they have already seen the birds.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

rorita said:


> One of my diamond doves (SweetPea) was breathing with his beak open last week so I took him to the vet. At this point he's at day 10 of his antibiotics, which is how long the vet said he should be on them. After about 5 days on the meds, he started cooing again, but yesterday he stopped. His breathing has improved immensely but now he's not eating or drinking and seems to be constantly swallowing something (like humans where they're swallowing their drool). His poops are TINY and dark green.


A bird can be affected by only one disease or by two or more at the same time. The respiratory symptoms may been caused by a bacteria while the lose of appetite by another pathogen that was present before or appeared after the treament.

His small but otherwise normal droppings may be caused by a stress factor (like being beaten by another pigeon) or a dificulty in eating, caused by a canker nodule or something else.

Swallowing is the classic symptom of canker. Try to feel by touching if he has some nodules along the neck or / and in crop.


> Another bird (New York) is doing the same thing with her mouth except her poops are very watery and bright green and her appetite is pretty strong now that she's in quarantine but before that she was puffed up and tired looking and rarely moved away from the heat lamp to get food for the last couple of days.


I have a pigeon that I suspect of ornithosis (one eye covered by purulent discharge) and yesterday had droppings of that bright green-yellow color but now the droppings look normal.



> She also vomited today but it seemed like a one off thing... she's been kind of crazy about getting out of her cage and eating weird stuff... like small rocks and dust she finds near the baseboards... calcium deficient? She laid 3 eggs last week but she's not been sitting on them, though her mate and 2 six-week old babies have been occasionally but not often and one of the eggs broke.


That is rather a symptom of blocked gissard. She feels something is stuck in her gissard and try to eat hard stuff to make that thing go away but that only worsens the situation, by adding to the blocking object(s). Read this:
http://beautyofbirds.com/blockedgizzard.html



> I do own a microscope but don't really have much of a biology background.


That's a cool thing. I'm sure you can find a lot of microscopic photos online with the pathogens that affect pigeons: trichomonas (canker), coccidia, worm eggs etc. I was shown such things by a bacteriologist vet, is not hard to recognize these things if you have some reference.


> Does it make sense to treat for canker or worms if he is not better on the antibiotics? Should I treat the other bird too?


If are worms, the effect of medication is seen immediately, bird recovering and possibly dead worms appearing in droppings. If is canker, the improvement will appear after 3 days.

I would say canker is the highest possibility, followed by fungi. Coccidia causes rather extra-voluminous droppings from my observations.


> Does anyone know where I can get medications quickly?


For canker, you can buy Metronidazole from any human drugstore and gave 30-50 mg / day.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Jay, The vet is treating him for a "systemic infection" as shown by a blood test. Vague, I know. Because the exam, stay, and drugs were already $400+, I unfortunately had to decline the fecal analysis and xray, as they added about $300 more to the bill.

I'll call them when they open and see if they'll give me the flagyl. is canker more specific to softbills? They don't see a lot of doves, i don't think. They have 2 avian vets on staff but they seem very parrot-focused.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Andres, thank you so much for all that. Good info. I would think if it was a fungus, it would be taken care of by the nystatin but I suppose some things could be resistant.

I hear a rattling in his breathing and I'm worried I might have gotten medicine in his lungs at some point. The vet told me to just shoot the medicine into his beak, like it's that easy lol. Sometimes I wish I had gotten bigger birds! so much easier to medicate... I feel like I should have done it with a crop needle instead for sweetpea.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

If the vet cannot help for some reason, I can go to this store: http://www.belmontfeedandseed.com/pigeon-10.html?p=1

They have more than one canker treatment, does anyone know the difference?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

rorita said:


> I would think if it was a fungus, it would be taken care of by the nystatin but I suppose some things could be resistant.


For Candida, I trust only Fluconazole. Nystatin is not of much use.



> I hear a rattling in his breathing and I'm worried I might have gotten medicine in his lungs at some point. The vet told me to just shoot the medicine into his beak, like it's that easy lol. Sometimes I wish I had gotten bigger birds! so much easier to medicate... I feel like I should have done it with a crop needle instead for sweetpea.


Water and other things that can enter respiratory tract must be pushed down into the throat. The respiratory vent is in the mouth and is easy to make something enter there and that either kills the bird or make her rattle (probably something painful) for hours or days.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

rorita said:


> Andres, thank you so much for all that. Good info. I would think if it was a fungus, it would be taken care of by the nystatin but I suppose some things could be resistant.
> 
> I hear a rattling in his breathing and I'm worried I might have gotten medicine in his lungs at some point. The vet told me to just shoot the medicine into his beak, like it's that easy lol. Sometimes I wish I had gotten bigger birds! so much easier to medicate... I feel like I should have done it with a crop needle instead for sweetpea.


You can't do that with doves, you need to put the fluid down passed their trachea or it will go in their lungs.

However when I accidentily got medicine in one of my pigeons lungs the vet told me not to worry about it as the body will reabsorb it - food is the biggest danger when it enters the lung because it rots

However when you call your vet to ask about flagly tell him you suspect you got some fluid/medicine in the lung and get his opinion.

If she did not have the rattling before I would guess it is from aspirating the meds and not a new symptom of illness.

You need to force feed if they are not eating. Otherwise their body will start shutting down adn won't have the energy to fight the illness or the side effects of the meds. Small tight poops are probably from not getting any food in.

Swallowing is usually ascociated with canker. Have you checked their throats? Look for nodules, bad smell, or redness and irritation.

Do this before you call your vet and tell him what you see.

If you can try do a fecal yourself, brillinat, as it will tell you a lot.

Do NOT worm a sick and ill worm.

After the meds or with the food you can give them a pic me up of electrolytes and probiotcs to help them gain some strength.

With some antibiotics you need to remove grit as it gets in the way of proper absorption of the meds. You vet should have indicated if this is the case, but if he is not used to pigeons he may not know about it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

treat for canker, and see if he improves. don't complicate it trying to guess what this is.. he already had the antibiotics... time to try the flagyl. ASAP


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

treat all the birds that had contact with the sick bird


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

ThePigeonGene said:


> You can't do that with doves, you need to put the fluid down passed their trachea or it will go in their lungs.
> 
> However when I accidentily got medicine in one of my pigeons lungs the vet told me not to worry about it as the body will reabsorb it - food is the biggest danger when it enters the lung because it rots
> 
> ...



I definitely want to do the fecal myself but the vet won't prescribe flagyl without seeing him again and testing his poop herself, so he has an appointment tomorrow, but I actually made him an appointment with my normal vet who is much closer (5 min drive, as opposed to 45 min) and cheaper... she was on vacation when he originally got sick- of course! 

He is starting to eat a little here and there. The vet (the one who recently saw him) said she didn't recommend I tube feed him until he was not eating AT ALL. On the plus side, she said he's done with his antibiotics (yay! less stress for a day) and since the rattling has gone away as of this morning, nothing to worry about. 

There are a lot of yelp reviews of the vet I took him to saying that they overcharge a lot and insist people get a lot of tests - even for just a checkup. I wish they would have just prescribed the flagyl without the whole ordeal of going in again. Of course my regular vet, who hasn't seen him yet, isn't going to prescribe him anything- that I understand. It just sucks because I know I'm running out of time!


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

spirit wings said:


> treat for canker, and see if he improves. don't complicate it trying to guess what this is.. he already had the antibiotics... time to try the flagyl. ASAP


I agree... I don't want to stress him out by taking him to the vet AT ALL but they insist they won't prescribe it without seeing him.

There is a feedstore that has some kind of canker meds but it's about a 45 minute drive that I don't think I can make today since my human son is sick with a fever as well.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

loftkeeper said:


> treat all the birds that had contact with the sick bird


There are 2 fledglings and 2 adult birds that may have had contact with him in the last month or so. Should I treat them all with syrup orally or have their water medicated?


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

when it rains it pours as they say 

you don't have to tube feed necessarily - I don;t like tube feeding, I find it tricky. You can give them frozen peas, defrosted and warmed. Just pop a pea in the back of their mouth, let them swallow and repeat. Make sure they are passing through and being digested before giving more. If he isn't eating sufficiently and you don't keep his energy up he will have a hard time.

I generally use pigeon grade metronidazole (i think?? flagly is the same ingredient?? - not sure though) and for that you do not need a prescription.

Its annoying having a vet who charges a lot, but from my exp with vets that don't even tell you about tests but just give you meds, life can be very frustrating.


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

treat there water no other water but treated water


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

in the mean time the bird could still have canker. waiting around with diamond doves is not wise because they are so small, one day they are eating some then next they are too sick to cure..


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Im in Chicago and I have a bit of Fluconazole and metronidazole left from my babies.
Seems they might have fungal infection


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Use Fluconazole only if they have Candida in respiratory system (which is quite more seldom than in digestive system), where Nystatin or apple vinegar doesn't reach.

Nystatin is a topic medicine, it only affects the mucosa of digestive tract, it doesn't enter into system, like Fluconazole and other triazoles (Itraconazole, Voriconazole). Fluconazole is effective only on Candida, it doesn't affect Aspergillus.

Traizoles are very toxic medicines, I renounced giving Voriconazole and Itraconazole after birds have the liver seriously affected (very ugly yellow droppings).

Fluconazole is less toxic but in case of digestive Candida, is better to use apple vinegar. In fact, digestive Candida disappear without medication if the bird is feeded properly (variated, good quality and pleasantful food) and lives a healthy life (exercise, stays in sun, moderate air temperature and is not stressed by other factors).


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

rorita said:


> There are 2 fledglings and 2 adult birds that may have had contact with him in the last month or so. Should I treat them all with syrup orally or have their water medicated?





goga82 said:


> Im in Chicago and I have a bit of Fluconazole and metronidazole left from my babies.
> Seems they might have fungal infection



I got some metronidazole from the vet but just for SweetPea... Not sure if I should do another on this poor guy! The vet also gave me tetracycline for the water for everyone. I'm not too sure what my next move is. Did you treat all the babies via syringe?

What vet do you use? I took Pea to Animal House in Lincoln Square because my regular vet was on vacation when he first got sick. I took him to her yesterday instead of making the trek to Animal House and I can't believe how much cheaper her prices are! Didn't think there would be such a disparity!


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

rorita said:


> I got some metronidazole from the vet but just for SweetPea... Not sure if I should do another on this poor guy! The vet also gave me tetracycline for the water for everyone. I'm not too sure what my next move is. Did you treat all the babies via syringe?
> 
> What vet do you use? I took Pea to Animal House in Lincoln Square because my regular vet was on vacation when he first got sick. I took him to her yesterday instead of making the trek to Animal House and I can't believe how much cheaper her prices are! Didn't think there would be such a disparity!



I take my pigeons and exotic animal to http://www.midwestexotichospital.com/

when it comes to pigeons and other birds they are the best.
Animal House I would never go there again, even thou it is very close to my house, they don't seem to care much about pigeons. the two birds I did take there they suggested euthanizing. 
Anyway both birds lived but not thanks to the staff in Animal House.
Animal House thinks they are the best in Chicago, One of the veterinarians used to be a rehabber and to him even a broken toe calls for euthanasia. 
Anyway reason why they are so expensive is cause they are exotic veterinarians.
I don't know if u ever heard of CAREcredit . its designed for veterinary emergencies like u have right now.

Seems that animal house is not really up to date with their medicine when it comes to our avian friends.
Midwest Hospital is somebody I would recommend


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## goga82 (Aug 17, 2009)

Some of these vets that claim they know birds, they will just prescribe anything to u just so you would see them acutally do something. 
Animal house will give u antibiotics for fungal infection, or pain killers for yeast infection.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can buy Metronidazole in most shops that sell tropical fish. You also could have gotten it online in a pigeon supply place. But you have waited, so now I would buy it at the fish store. It's called Fish Zole, and you need to read it and make sure that there is no other drug in it. Just Metronidazole. Sometimes now, it comes with a wormer in it. You can't use that one. If you find it, come back and let us know so we can help you with the dosage. 
If a vet knows you have other birds, they will usually give you enough for all of them if you ask. And most vets that you have a relationship with won't make you bring the bird back in for tests to give flagyl.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

I thought about getting it from the fish store but then I'd have to put it in the drinking water, right? I'm afraid they might not get what they need. And at this point their water is already treated with tetracycline anyway.

I think I'm just about at the point now with my vet that we have that kind of rapport. I think especially since SweetPea is improving (I actually saw drink today! and he's eating quite a bit) she'll be willing to give me a little more to treat everyone else. I have enough to treat him and the hen but I'll need more to get everyone else done. It's only ten days, I don't mind getting a box of gloves (so I don't have to wash my hands 6 times) and needless syringes and just doing everyone twice a day with the syrup.

But for the future, I think I may order some online like you suggested. Perhaps I should look into getting a different canker med in case the canker becomes resistant to metronidazole?


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Scratch that... just measured what's in the bottle... seemed minuscule but there's plenty for everyone!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How many birds do you have? I doubt that there is enough for more than your sick bird. 
No. You don't put it in the water. You have to cut the pill up to the right dose and give it to them that way. Just like a pea. Down the throat. It's not hard. You would need to tell us how many mg per pill.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> How many birds do you have? I doubt that there is enough for more than your sick bird.
> No. You don't put it in the water. You have to cut the pill up to the right dose and give it to them that way. Just like a pea. Down the throat. It's not hard. You would need to tell us how many mg per pill.



I have 5 birds total. and you're right... just recalculated... there's enough for 2, and maybe a baby with a slightly smaller dose but not 5, so I'll call the vet and see if I can get more. I dunno if I can get a diamond dove to swallow a pill... I'm not even sure I could get them to swallow a pea!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The pill is very small when cut up to the right dose.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

oh good! You've got me convinced, Jay!  I'm gonna get some, for the future or if this vet is feeling ungiving. Can I send you a message for dosage help when I get it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Come back on and we can help you with the pills. If you get meds from the vet, she will give instructions.


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

So I finally got everything I needed to do a fecal smear... Looks like cocci!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You keep jumping around with what it is, and giving different meds. You are going to do more harm then good. The fecal that you didn't do actually would have been the cheapest test, and more than likely would have told you what was wrong. 
I still think it's canker, but the bird wasn't treated properly for it. I would retreat for that rather than jumping around so much.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

rorita said:


> So I finally got everything I needed to do a fecal smear... Looks like cocci!


if you gave antibiotic then that is scary. now do you know which medication that will work on that strain of cocci? canker can come out as well esp if the bird is down with intestinal parasites. time for the vet IMO


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> You keep jumping around with what it is, and giving different meds. You are going to do more harm then good. The fecal that you didn't do actually would have been the cheapest test, and more than likely would have told you what was wrong.
> I still think it's canker, but the bird wasn't treated properly for it. I would retreat for that rather than jumping around so much.


Agreed, I'm not making any changes to his care until he finishes what he's on now but I'm trying to be prepared because he's not doing much better and I'm running out of money. I do see areduced amount of flagellates in his fecal compared to the other birds so clearly the metronidazol is working. I know the fecal wasn't on its own that expensive but it was an additional $80+ on a bill that was already $400. It was vets first suggestion of something to skip to bring the bill down. I just spent another $65 for him to see the vet again last Friday. Im just a student so I don't have a lot of money. I noticed an improvement with the metronidazol but then he got kind of listless and slowed down his eating again. He's going back to.the vet tomorrow tho.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I would say to not resort to vets, except for lab tests. They don't know anything what you can't find on internet, not on forums though, but on some bird veterinary sites. In fact, many / most of them know about birds even less than many users on this forum, they don't even know basic things, like how to hydrate a bird.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

that may be how it is in Romania but here in the USA most vets that don't even treat birds can help, an avian vet is great with complicated chronic illnesses. I think the internet has it's place but don't believe everything you read, that would be dangerouse.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes, the situation in US may be a little better, nevertheless, one shouldn't trust a vet (or other "professional") even if he is a Harvard graduate, because all humans are prone to mistakes.
I know I myself am forgeting this rule often, unfortunately. 

I didn't say to believe any site, but that no vet can tell you more than things you can find on internet. And yes, not even vet sites must be blindly trusted, but reading several sources and from own practice you can build a sort of experience. I remember when I began posting on pigeons.biz and some people asked me to take their advices blindly and I explained then that this sort of atitude is not productive.

In conclusion, no vet or internet source must be blindly followed.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

rorita said:


> Andres, thank you so much for all that. Good info. I would think if it was a fungus, it would be taken care of by the nystatin but I suppose some things could be resistant.


Nystatin, as I said on another thread, is a topic medicine, is not absorbed into organism, it doesn't enter the blood but only threat topically the mucosa of the digestive tract. If Candida is in respiratory system, is useless, Fluconazole is the solution in that case. 

And in digestive system, apple vinegar may be better than Nystatin, inclusively because the medicine is very unpleasantful for bird.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> Yes, the situation in US may be a little better, nevertheless, one shouldn't trust a vet (or other "professional") even if he is a Harvard graduate, because all humans are prone to mistakes.
> I know I myself am forgeting this rule often, unfortunately.
> 
> I didn't say to believe any site, but that no vet can tell you more than things you can find on internet. And yes, not even vet sites must be blindly trusted, but reading several sources and from own practice you can build a sort of experience. I remember when I began posting on pigeons.biz and some people asked me to take their advices blindly and I explained then that this sort of atitude is not productive.
> ...



...............

Self diagnosis, diagnosis from comparing 'pictures' on the internet etc will KILL birds............

It is definitely possible in most parts of the world to find a good avian vet. And the medical advice of a GOOD avian vet SHOULD be followed to the letter and any doubts should be DISCUSSED with a VET. How many people have had recurring problems (human or pigeon) becuase they for example stopped the antibiotics too early?? Or only know of 5 possible things so eliminate possibilities and say well if it is not 1,2,3 or 4 it must be 5! Except that a good avian vet will know of another 5 things it might be so you will not even be close to diagnosing anything.

No-one should do anything blindly. But trusting your vet is not the same as following them blindly. The internet sources should ONLY be used to get an understanding of possibilities to bring TO the vet. Or as a LAST chance when a vet really isn't available.

Nothing compares to actually seeing the animal in person.

I find it very strange for such a statement to come from you of all people. Over the passed few months, it is you above anyone else who posts here, whose posts are outright diagnosis, usually of E-coli, followed by the treatment they should be undertaking...........with no way of confirming what they have

I think it is very hypocritical to so easily post a firm (and dangerous) diagnosis like that each time, and then say 'people here told you to follow their advice, but this attitude is not productive'


The golden rule of owning any animal is first things first, find yourself a good and trusted vet. NOTHING will replace one. You are not only equally likely to make as many mistakes as the human vet, but even more so. What avian medical knowledge and experience do you have?
Last time you posted about a problem that I recall you had fed a baby pigeon bread and it got stuck in his crop......and before that i remember a post where you had mentioned giving one med after another but the bird died. If you want to experiment with the lives of your own birds, that is your choice. But I would NEVER EVER suggest that someone disregards the opinion of a professional, simply BECAUSE they are a professional and apparently in Romania only in it for the money, and choses instead to self medicate and experiment blindly until you hit the jack pot or poison the bird

We don;t have a lot of avian vets in Malta. Only 2 on the whole Island. But even my dog's vet knew enough to help with a resp infection when I had a sick bird. And I can name over 10 highly recommended vets (of all kinds) who are seriously dedicated to their work, and are most certainly NOT in it for the money - and this in a country that is famous for being 'behind' and 'ill-equipped'


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> Yes, the situation in US may be a little better, nevertheless, one shouldn't trust a vet (or other "professional") even if he is a Harvard graduate, because all humans are prone to mistakes.
> I know I myself am forgeting this rule often, unfortunately.
> 
> I didn't say to believe any site, but that no vet can tell you more than things you can find on internet. And yes, not even vet sites must be blindly trusted, but reading several sources and from own practice you can build a sort of experience. I remember when I began posting on pigeons.biz and some people asked me to take their advices blindly and I explained then that this sort of atitude is not productive.
> ...


no one is saying to blindly follow anyone.. including following your poor advice. . I think most normal people would know a vet is going to at least help in some way. most avian vets can be wonderful in big ways. Im not going to go into your prejudice here, but that is what it is , and I think it is irrisponsible to give that adivce and impression about that medical profession


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

For a vet to check the droppings shouldn't be so expensive, just to see what bacteria or whatever they are carrying. Cultures would cost more.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what is expensive? depends on who you ask. we charge 27.50 for an in house check that can be expensive for one person but not another. plus I don't own a business and would not debate what to charge unless I did.. some people forget that it is a busniess. everyone is free to call and shop around. sending off to the lab is 37.00.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> what is expensive? depends on who you ask. we charge 27.50 for an in house check that can be expensive for one person but not another. plus I don't own a business and would not debate what to charge unless I did.. some people forget that it is a busniess. everyone is free to call and shop around. sending off to the lab is 37.00.



They said it would have cost $80 +. Hard to imagine a vet charging that much.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> no one is saying to blindly follow anyone.. including following your poor advice. . I think most normal people would know a vet is going to at least help in some way. most avian vets can be wonderful in big ways. Im not going to go into your prejudice here, but that is what it is , and I think it is irrisponsible to give that adivce and impression about that medical profession


I think you contradict yourself. In the end, should or shouldn't someone take the vet's word without questioning / doubting?

My advice is reasonable, there are so many human doctors and vets who kill patients. I didn't say to systematically reject a vet's word, I'm sure many of them have very precious advices / info to give, as I received myself from some of them and I use them.



ThePigeonGene said:


> Self diagnosis, diagnosis from comparing 'pictures' on the internet etc will KILL birds............


Then, what is this forum for?








> It is definitely possible in most parts of the world to find a good avian vet.


Even if is good, he can make mistakes. And be aware of those many bad vets, for which is not shortage even in US, as a member from US related:


rorita said:


> The vet told me to just shoot the medicine into his beak, like it's that easy lol.










> And the medical advice of a GOOD avian vet SHOULD be followed to the letter and any doubts should be DISCUSSED with a VET.
> ...
> The internet sources should ONLY be used to get an understanding of possibilities to bring TO the vet. Or as a LAST chance when a vet really isn't available.


Sounds like some religious rules to me. Definitelly unproductive.



> No-one should do anything blindly. But trusting your vet is not the same as following them blindly.


Is not clear how you want things to work.

Long story short, here's how I thing we should proceed toward vets (and generally toward any claimed professional) and toward caring animals:

- be open to the posibility that the vet knows what is saying but also to the possibility that he doesn't know
-inform yourself from the primary sources, the very books the medicine students use in their formation or any other scientifical books. Knowledge has never hurt. Go the Medicine University, get a reader pass or buy some books. I did that. Also on Internet is a lot of info if you know where to search, there are integral online books etc.

Nothing compares to actually seeing the animal in person.



> Over the passed few months, it is you above anyone else who posts here, whose posts are outright diagnosis, usually of E-coli, followed by the treatment they should be undertaking...........with no way of confirming what they have


Come one, I donțt think the nature of my posts are so much different than others. Maybe only in respect of their frequency. Every body says what he think and while I said many wrong things, I also think I have said things that have been / are useful for others.




> We don;t have a lot of avian vets in Malta. Only 2 on the whole Island. But even my dog's vet knew enough to help with a resp infection when I had a sick bird. And I can name over 10 highly recommended vets (of all kinds) who are seriously dedicated to their work, and are most certainly NOT in it for the money - and this in a country that is famous for being 'behind' and 'ill-equipped'


Now you started to bash Romania as a third world country. Very probable you never visited it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> They said it would have cost $80 +. Hard to imagine a vet charging that much.


I don't live in Ill near a large city so I can't say, and it is hard to say what all was included in that.. people don't always understand their charges. If she names the vet I will call there myself and ask what they charge.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I think you contradict yourself. In the end, should or shouldn't someone take the vet's word without questioning / doubting?
> 
> My advice is reasonable, there are so many human doctors and vets who kill patients. I didn't say to systematically reject a vet's word, I'm sure many of them have very precious advices / info to give, as I received myself from some of them and I use them.
> 
> ...


what you think/believe, is bad advice. now move on in this thread. 

If you want to open a new thread about bashing veterniarian medicine in Romania and then chat about it, then please do so.


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## ThePigeonGene (May 30, 2014)

AndreiS said:


> I think you contradict yourself. In the end, should or shouldn't someone take the vet's word without questioning / doubting?
> 
> Hardly. I am saying exactly what you said later on in this post, Do your research and know your facts and then GO TO A VET and see what they say. If they contradict your research ask why, If they don't know their stuff, move on and find a GOOD vet.
> 
> ...


Firstly no I have not. You are the one taking a bash to your own country. I simply said that my country is very slow at keeping to speed with some things and yet still has good vets (if only 2 avian for 1/2 a million people). So I very much doubt that Romania has none. I think you have either not looked hard enough or far enough, or decided the vets available were too far away to bother. You are the one saying vets in Romania are no good


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## rorita (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry I haven't been on in a while. Life has gotten rather hectic between medicating tiny birds and 5 year old also getting sick. 

Sadly, SweetPea left us last night  He put up a really good fight but likely regardless of medication, the damage was already done. I didn't treat him for anything besides canker in the end. Not sure if it's what was ailing him. I did a couple of mouth swabs a week ago and didn't see any trichonomas but it wasn't a full crop wash so that's not really saying much. I'm fairly certain he didn't have cocci or worms, now that I'm more proficient at the 'scope. At the very least, the other birds seem well but of course I'll be keeping an eye on them. Thanks for everyone's help.


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