# :(



## surfingpigeon (Apr 28, 2005)

Last week when I opened the cage to my feral pigeon, Beaver, he escaped.  Ever since then I've felt really sad beyond belief. I just wanted to help the little guy, and now I can't find him. 

If anyone here on this website is a breeder, or has pigeons for sale, I'd like to buy a friendly guy.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi surfingpigeon,


I may be speaking in haste here, but I do not think it sounds like you yet posess the emotional maturity to have any kind of Bird.

Please wait another decade or two.

Birds are not 'things' for you to make captives of to feed your emotional needyness and loveless home-life or boredom at their expense.

Please do not be trying to 'do' to captive Animals what your parents did to you.

I will venture that the Bird who escaped did the healthiest thing possible for them to do, and, I am glad they did.




Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Surfing Pigeon,

I'm sorry to hear about the pigeon that you tried to help out a few weeks back.
I don't know what your living situation is but if you brought in another bird, 
would the conditions that the first one "escaped" through be resolved? That 
might be a consideration for you before acquiring a second. 

I think the friendliness that is experienced between you and a pet bird has 
as much to do with time nurturing that relationship as it does the temperment
of the bird. It just takes time and patience and something is bound to unfold.
One possibility for you would be to adopt a bird who really needs a loving
home from an animal shelter.....if you are unaware of the ones in your area,
I'm sure you could "google it".
Here's one link you could try:

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=1&pet.Breed=Pigeon&pet.Animal=Bird&preview=1

Also, you might check w/our own adoption forum. There was a bird posted
recently in need of a home. If you keep an eye on that section, and you don't mind shipping, I'm sure something will come up that will be a win-win situation, a pet for you and a home for a deserving pigeon.


----------



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Phil, please don't take it personally but I think that you came down a little too hard in this case. Positive intrest in pigeons should be encouraged and you are acting to discourage somebody.


Sufingpigeon, I'm sorry to hear that your pigeon took off. You were very lucky that your bird is familiar with living in the wild and healthy so there was no harm done in this case. It would be good to be more careful with the cages in the future when you have another pigeon. Pigeons rasied in captivity are not usually able to make it outside, so getting out of the cage can be a death sentence.


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Hey Surfingpigeon,
Your heart is in the right place. Helping animals is always the right thing to do and sometimes the best way to help them is to leave them in their environment. I struggle with that myself sometimes. If you've followed any of the post I've left you'll know I have a feral pigeon in my life right now. I rescued the bird at a very young age from drowning and hand reared her until she decided for herself it was time to go. She still chooses to visit me every day arriving in the morning and then leaving in the late afternoon. I'd be lying if I told you the thought never crossed my mind not to open the window when she asks to go. She's become a big part of my life and I do honestly love her with all my heart.

I know Phil wants what's best for the bird and in this case it sounds like it was a healthy bird and really should live free, however his personal opinions about you are outrageous. I can't speak for anyone else here but I apologize for what he said, it was way out of line.

Pets do fill voids WE ALL have in our lives. If you read any of the post here, people speak of their birds with great affection and consider them members of their families. A good pet though probably isn't a healthy wild bird though only because you're robbing them of the chance to fly free and raise a family. 

I don't know you or your living situation, you may be getting ready to graduate HS and go off to college or join the military, and if that's the case, getting a pet now may not be the best thing. BUT, if you aren't going anywhere and you really like birds, get a hand raised canary or maybe someone else here can recommend a good fit for you. Don't wait 20 years like was suggested.

In the meantime, don't stop feeding the wild pigeons. Anytime you're outside interacting positively with an animal is a good thing. Get active in the animal rights community in your area. Like I said, your heart's in the right place.

Kevin


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi JGreg,


I was seeing bad saturday night live skits of 'Lenny' wanting to pet-the-puppy.

Maybe I have seen too much of this form clueless insensate tee-vee and fast food 'raised' people who know nothing and feel nothing but their own use for others.

If I sound 'hard', what is that compared to the actual reality one so often sees whic their 'pets' enedure or die in?

In a five year old, maybe it is sort of 'understandable'...in a 17 year old, something is way missing here.

When the entire premis is wrong, how does one 'encourage'?

Not by patronizeing, I do not think...

Nothing said of this persons wishing to learn or to understand better, but, only that their needyness is disappointed at a captive Creature's 'escape'...why did they have this Bird in the first place? To benifit the Bird somehow? If so, then "how"?

One can 'read'...and sometimes much is said even in a short sentence or two.

To me, this is quiet horror...

This person is far from the self awareness for any kind of other-awareness to have any reality.

I do not approve of cruelty to Animals to patronize ner-do-wells home-boredoms and clueless emprisonment of smal creatures.

what do you feel there is to 'work with' with this person?

Their deference to Birds and their sincere interest in them?

Or, their facile thing-making needyness, seeking easy small victims?

Do tell...

To me, it smelled of everything I would not want to see happen...


Not all people posess the character developement for 'having' anyone or anything dependant on them, or, they seek dependance and not the benifit of the other.

Bad either way...

I do not think it is a good thing to patronize it when we see it.

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Kevin, 


Ohhhhh..have you not seen this sort of thing in real life often enough?

It has it's own smell, it's own scent, it's own mood.

Bet me a hundred bucks I am 'wrong', and if there was some real way to check, I think you'd loose your C-Note...

I am a pretty good call...

And being forthright, I think, is allright now and then.

I wonder how many other small animals or Birds have allready 'passed' one way or another through this persons cages?

Smells bad to me, and I was not shy to say so.

Bad is bad, and you can spend all day trying to teach them something, and in the end, they will know only their own needyness and it's indifferent use of others at the other's expense.

Maybe you should selll them one of your favorite Birds then.

See how long it lasts...

Maybe it too will 'escape', literally or figuratively...


In good humor, or tough-love maybe, 

Yours, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Phil,

I don't know what it was about Surfingpigeon's post that struck a such a nerve with you, but it's obvious that it did. I know you seem to have strong feelings about this, but I have to jump on the bandwagon and agree that your reply was a little too harsh and a little too personally insulting. 

There is nothing wrong with being forthright...some people do need to be spoken to firmly at times to fully absorb information, but your reply could have been toned down a bit. I know you have the bird's best interest at heart, so please don't take offense at what I have said.

This is the original thread concerning this bird started by Surfingpigeon:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10133

If you read it, I think you will see that this person, while inexperienced, seemed to mean well.

Linda


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Linda,


...quite so, it 'struck a nerve'...

Thank you for being a kind Diplomat..!

I have refered to the earlier 'thread'...

Still, I find this - 

A young Pigeon (from a feral flock which is subject to mistreatment from people, ) is caaptured, was in no particular peril or danger or deprivation, and, is given (forced to accept for no reason than someone's interference with it, ) a 'good home' with fresh scratch and seed and water and attempts to make it like the captor and to love the captor or something.

The person wants the Bird to like him/her, and, has zero interest or appreciation that the Bird has anything like it's own healthy interests or sense, or, it's own anything, or, it's own eventual probable, increasing sense of authentic and natural self posession or desires for eventual automomy to grow up. There is nothing said about intending to re-assimilate the little Bird once it is old enoough or something, back into the feral Flock.

The bird grows up enough to finally make a break for it, and, flys away ( we hope) and, then, there is all this sense of "loss" and grief because the healthy, right, and engenuously sane thing, happenned - the Bird went free as it was meant by Nature, decency, rightfullness or respect, and my it's own will, to do.

The Bird evaded being reduced into being merely someone's needyness feeding off of it thing...and a new victim now is being sought.

There is no more wishing to "help" seemingly disadvantaged 'ferals', but, to now graduate to something with less or probably less self will or automony, so it can not evade the captive exploitation and degredation it's captor wishes to impose.

Okay, so, tell me now, truely, which nuance, in the out of context initial post atop here, did I miss, in replying as I did, for now reviewing it's preceeding one? and finding, to my own sense of it, that I had in fact missed nothing?

I think, I called it right.

There is no interest here in "helping' Birds, nor any interest expresed but for feined cover story of "having" one as something to use in some way at it's expense in the thinly veiled guise of somehow 'helping them' when they do not need any help. There is no hint of interest in the Bird itself, as itself, in any way whatever at any phase of t his little saga so far...nor in it's healthy right to claim it's own freedom if it is able and disposed to do so...the interest is in pretending to help them to make things out of them for this persons emotional needyness, and, again, at every turn and in every way, at the expense of the Bird itself, or of even having any interest or common sense to care about the Bird as anything BUT a captive dependant to exploit to try and make it love them 'back' when there is no :love" being given TO the Bird in any real way aside from needyness seeking a victim, which, if I need to remind, is not Love.

This dear Linda and others who may feel I was 'harsh'...is a scenario of a common pathology and is not by any definition or charity, 'Healthy'.

Find a (well, non nutty themselves if you can find one, of, perceptive and practical ) practiceing psychiatrist or psychiatric social worker and let them 'read' the two posts, then, please, see what they say.

These scenarios are virtually 'classic'...

I apologiuse for dominating this otherwise quietly horrific and naively apprehended thread.

Look at it this way, would you like to have this person "take care" of you? On their terms? To see if ny their making you dependant, maybe they can make you 'love' them for it?

Well?

...are we 'seeing' it yet?

Hello???



"What Rhinosaurous???"




Lol...

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Phil,
I'll respond to your post and then we can call it a day. This isn't the place for this debate...

I have to ask, do you know this person? To say the things you said regarding this young persons character are so far beyond beyond the bounds of good taste I'm at a loss to even know what your thought process was. I can't imagine a more hurtful way to express what is after all, only your opinion. I'm offended by what you said and it wasn't even directed at me. 

Telling someone you don't even know that they have a "loveless homelife" and that they're "emotionally needy" and implying they were abused as a child is OUTRAGEOUS by any standard of decency. You speak of this 17 year old as having no "emotional maturity". I'll be frank with you and suggest you might want to examine your own. I can't for the life of me understand why a 51 year old man would say something like that to a teenager taking the first steps of responsibility and adulthood. What effect do you think your words have had? This person came here to an open forum for support and advice. Was your plan to make him feel so bad about himself he'd never again consider having a pet of any kind? 

You mention "tough love" and "humor" as reasons for your post. I just see it as poor judgment. Just my opinion, and my last word on it.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi photokev,


This is not a 'teenager taking the sirst steps to responsibility and adulthood'...

This is pathology.

A 'teenager' or anyone assumeing 'steps' of responsibility or 'adulthood' would not capture a perfectly allright wild Bird, and force it into a cage and lament on it's somehow getting 'out' with no, zero, nada mention of in any way being concerned about the well being of the Bird, or ever intending that it SHOULD resume it's own life on it's own terms, while expressing only the hunger and depravity of their own loss thta it DID assume a healthy self interest and 'escaped' to own it's own life.

They were actually looking 'for' a victim who was compromised whom they may assume controll over to exploit.

This, if you need to be told bluntly, is really a very, very fundimental thing...a very fundimental distinction - 

Is our deference 'to' the other? For their sakes? Are we interested in their well being, and in their terms, responsibly? As say, with a Bird?

I am not interested in 'this' persons' "well being". I see them as an incipient sociopath and testing their progression as a preditor and victim sniffer and manipulator. I have seen many such people and I am happy to call them 'as' I see them.

Or, as for having in some way, a captive Bird ( or anyone, ) does our use of, or interest in an other merely serve our indifference 'to' them? At their expense? - with or without fatuous cover stories about 'helping' them, especially when they did not in their own or any terms, need our 'help'?

What is the 'loss' here ?

That a healthy feral Creature had the opoortunity to assume it's own Life again? and escaped an exploitive confinement imposed upon it?

How is that a 'loss'?

If this person were emotionally 'Healthy' they would be glad the Bird COULD and DID assume it's own Life, which they in fact interupted being a meddler and user of it to make it a captive to try and make it like them...it wants someone to 'like' them, and now seeks a more tame Bird...okay...

This, to me is a scarey scenario...

Have you people seen so little of people-life as NOT to get the drift here with this thing? Or do you explicitly condone it, when you DO 'see' it, as you seem to be doing here?

Explain it to me please...


With all due respect and affection, none of you so far seem able to 'read' the simple disclosures of this person.


You are defending what seems to be a delusion or complaisent projection upon what-they-actually-said, which ignores what they actually "said".

Read what they actually said, please?

Read it c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y...

It is a "reading comprehension thing", kinda like when you were catpives, in 'school'...

Lol...

Or, too, lighten up, it is a "discussion"...not a manditory, automatic pandering and enableing what is sometimes clearly 'wrong' as far as the well being OF a Bird, of allways insisting everyone and all they do, no matter how blatantly in appropriate TO Birds, is "Thank you for rescueing this Pigeon" when they did not 'rescue' it at all. They kidnapped it from it's own autonomous Life to make it a captive which they hoped would 'like' them for it.

Pay attention...!

Read what is said...

Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil and everyone, 

I am sorry Phil, but I have to agree with the others here on this one. I feel you were a little harsh to this person regardless of the circumstances. You mention of reading between the lines, but unfortunately this person hasn't really given much information about anything in any great detail. Even going back on the past posts, they have been pretty vague. Yes, she said she caught a bird but maybe it was injured or sick, she never said anything about this. If it was captured relatively easily, it may have well been not up to par. 

I strongly feel that the debate is over, this person came here for a little moral support and possible advice, not to have her topic or herself be psycho analized by members here. That is not our job. Let's wait to her from the person HERSELF again and see what she says before everyone gets in an uproar.

Thanks,


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brad,


Okay...

But you must admit, this has been a interesting discussion of a side-light which bears some pause for thought...and for possible consideration in it's own thread sometime.

In some parts of my present livlihood, and in previous occupations, I was, and am obliged to make identifications in various matters or about various things, on often what are only quite small glimpses or abstractions. This often pisses people off who do not do this themselves, who are not used to it, or, unless they can double check how accurate any given 'call' was, which they will not likely want to do anyway, since their real interest is usually to be in some way forbidding someone else's abstract evidence occasions to identify something.

Often my or other people's survival depended on the calls ( identifications or judgements) I had to make, and, for what it is worth, I was wrong so seldom no one would ever bet me after the first couple times.

Pick some area you know, and say, look at one fragment...one abstraction, and, likely, you can tell something that can be 'taken to the bank' as they say.

Maybe you know muscle Cars ( I do not, but) say, and, while driveing on some neighborhood, you catch a glimpse of a part of a front fender in some weeds behind a house. The glimpse lasts one twentieth of a second or something, as you drive by, a peripheral glimpse, and, you say to your passenger, "Sixty-One Chrysler 300" or something...and maybe they want to bust your chops on "How the hell can YOU say???" ( sorry, I do not know my '60s era Mopars so I maybe am off on that designation)...

But...you were right...

Sometimes we can walk behind that house...

Sometimes not...

Like that...

I appreciate your concern...and thank you for what I know is it's spirit of good will.

Forgive me if I was upsetting please.

And, at your liesure, please consider carefully what the thread here has had actually had written in it, initially, and, after. The reactions and their structure, and, what explicitly was said. To critically 'read' is not at all what allmost all people do, and, it is hard to explain how to do it, or, even that it can be done.

When you can do it, it is no different than seeing that front fender of say ( a Car era I do know) and with a tiny glimpse, you can say, "'33, maybe '34 Mopar, likely "Plymouth"...or, "GM, smaller series, likely Pontiac, prolly not Olds, not Buick or Cad, not Chev, but, three-five, or, three-six..."

...and you will (almost) never lose a 'bet'...


Thanks Brad...

I will be happy to leave this particular thread be now...

I do think it is a worthy matter to consider in it's own thread sometime.

Meanwhile, not one of you have said, "Sure, I will sell them one of my favorite Birds!"

Have you...?

No...

So...

what say your 'gut' feelings, even if cognate critical analysis does not occur?

Do you trust this person's intentions for them to ( as you say,) 'learn' on one of your Birds?

Do you?

But it is "okay" for them to 'learn' on other, expendable ones?

Interesting...

Moreso, maybe, conflicts of pee-cee (denial?) training, and too little reality training.

Anyway...

Gets tricky sometimes...


Tell me this (oh well, that means maybe I will not leave this thread alone afterall?) 

How long did it take you to figure out "birdboy12"?

Or, did you finally get-the-drift there?

I almost called that one at the get-go and I elected to leave it be while occasionally reading the progressions of it. Maybe that was the 'polite' thing to do.

Now, if I had called it at the get-go, would you (plural) have been all over me on "How can you SAY that!!!! HOW dare you make these presumptions How rude of you!!!!" and so on?

Well, wouldja have?


Lol...

I think, you would have...!

But after a while, even you could finally 'see' that one...no?

Yes...

So...

I will not call any more of them at the get-go, or after.

I will let you get stroked along untill a preponderance of progressive accrueing 'clues' lets you wise up at your own pace, if a given thread OF such things lasts long enough for you to do so.

And, we can maybe take this aspect of it to it's own thread sometime, to look at it carefully with no 'real' people as examples, being needed.

 

&  

Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Ummm...Phil? A sociopath? I don't quite know where you are getting your ideas....


A sociopath would likely be setting birds on fire at the tender age of seven (I'm a therapist, I can speak to this professionally..) not trying to provide a bird with a good life, at the age of 17, even if the intention was somewhat misguided.

I agree that nabbing a healthy feral was not the best of plans -- but I think this young human would do well with a tame pigeon. If I had one to spare, I'd gladly do so --- I don't, as I am in love with the two ferals we saved from death at the hands of our building manager. (Hell -- I feel guilty for robbing them of their feral lives -- but they'd have been dead if they had been left alone. If they get antsy later, we'll find someone to do a soft release...)

How is this any different, really, from any other "selfish" human who wishes for animal company and procures a "pet"?? I hope this fellow finds the company of a tame and unreleasable bird, and they share much happy time together.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just an observation. Information by itself, is just that, information. When put
in a constructive format, it can be utilized and built on to everyone's learning advantage. When put in a damning format, it can isolate, and frustrate communication and growth. At which point, what would the point of the communication be? Perhaps starting a new thread simultaneously would have 
been a more constructive route.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi feralpigeon,


Well said...

I just reviewed the progression here, and my own immaturity has obliged me into the embarassment of trying to justify myself.


Now, maybe if I had 'positively' advocated what I believe to be the wholesome scenario or overview, I would not have aroused so much negative and confused emotional reactions.

As it is, sometimes I do in fact do so state things in entirely "positive' terms, and I will say most people can sort of handle it 'better', and, sometimes I do not. 


Yours, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Phil and everyone,
> I am sorry Phil, but I have to agree with the others here on this one. I feel you were a little harsh to this person regardless of the circumstances. You mention of reading between the lines, but *unfortunately this person hasn't really given much information about anything in any great detail*. *Even going back on the past posts, they have been pretty vague.* Yes, she said she caught a bird but maybe it was injured or sick, she never said anything about this. If it was captured relatively easily, it may have well been not up to par.
> 
> I strongly feel that the debate is over, this person came here for a little moral support and possible advice, not to have her topic or herself be psycho analized by members here. That is not our job. Let's wait to her from the person HERSELF again and see what she says before everyone gets in an uproar.
> ...


According to surfingpigeon's initial post (see below), the reason behind 'capturing' the squeaker appears quite clear (see highlighted area). 

_"Everyday almost, I go to the local park to feed the birds. I notice there are a lot of pigeons there eating bread crumbs and scrapes. *What I hate to see is when children throw rocks at them, and hit them resulting in injury. Angry, I decided to capture one of these pigeons to a nice home*. It seems to still be a juvenille, since it is just now getting in new feathers, and makes a "peeping" noise. Naturally, I wanted the pigeon to have a good home. So I bought a roomy cage, plenty of grains and pigeon scratch, and fresh water atleast 5-6 times a day. What I don't understand, is how much this bird distrusts me. I can't hold it, touch it, talking it or anything! From my understanding, pigeons are friendly people birds. What's going on? Will he warm up to me eventually"_

It's quite obvious surfingpigeon was thinking of the squeaker's welfare. I would venture to say the reason he was easily caught was because he was a baby.
All the responses, iincluding yours Phil, in that you agreed with the others, were suggestions on how to 'tame' this wild bird. 
It seems a tab bit unfair to now give surfingpigeon a tongue lashing because the pigeon decided to move on.  

Surfingpigeon:
You meant well  , however more times than not a healthy pigeon that has been captured, for whatever reason, seems to prefer life on the wild side, if you will. An ill or injured pigeon, on the other hand, is usually grateful (to a point) to be caught & treated. Once recovered, even they often prefer to be released back into the wild. 

You appeared to have taken heed of the initial advice given, unfortunately your new found freathered friend was one that preferred the wild side of life.

I have 8 pigeons that have become family pets. They are all rescued, non-releasables, ranging from common to fancy to show & even a blind pigeon. They each have a unique personality & are such a joy.
The rewards of offering a home to a non-releasable pigeon are great.  
Just something to think about.

Cindy


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you Cindy

Yes, when I went back to cross reference the first post from Surfingpigeon I saw that she had indeed mentioned the circumstances of how and why she was able to capture the pigeon. I have a bad habit of skimming through posts at times, especially when I'm at work or distracted  I tend to go by memory mostly in regards to past posts but as we all know, memories are faulty. Thanks for bringing this to all of our attention so that hopefully this whole question of sincerity and this person's judgement can be dropped. 

Let's just hope that Surfingpigeon will come back now and seek the help and advice she wanted. We're a support group for pigeons and people who care for them afterall


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

I sent her an email asking her to please come back but didn't get a response. This is a great forum, a model for any special interest group. I really hope she comes back but I guess the damage has been done.


----------



## auntisocial (Apr 25, 2005)

Hi Surfingpigeon,

My husband and I have recently become foster parents to two sets of pigeon babes. They are such a joy and we have become attached to them... their loving personalities. The first pair is now 7 going on 8 weeks old, spend more and more time outside and seem to have become part of a flock that lives nearby. This is fortunate for us as we believe we'll be able to see them from time-to-time. 

I still tear up when I think about the possibility of not seeing them, but I also know that they are meant to be out in the wild. Part of me swells with pride when I think of these two who were rescued when only days old by two people who knew NOTHING about keeping them alive let alone helping them grow and then being able to successfully release them back into their natural habitat -- from having NO life to a CHANCE at a normal life. 

Thank you for taking an interest in and helping this bird. I understand the pain at suddenly having this void... I NEVER expected to feel such a deep caring and attachment for our miracle babies. There have been good suggestions here -- from what I understand there are many pigeons that need homes because they are not able to make it in the outside world. Perhaps this type of scenario would be something to look into. I wish you all the best.

P.S. Phil, I don't even know what to say to you.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

auntisocial said:


> Part of me swells with pride when I think of these two who were rescued when only days old by two people who knew NOTHING about keeping them alive let alone helping them grow and then being able to successfully release them back into their natural habitat -- from having NO life to a CHANCE at a normal life.


Hi Laura, 

Yes, you ARE to be acknowledged and patted on the back for your wonderful efforts and achievements. Not everyone can successfully raise two young pigeons as you have without having hands on experience and working from nil. You're a good person full of respect for nature. You do the board "proud" by your accomplishment and views, Great job here!


----------



## auntisocial (Apr 25, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Laura,
> 
> Yes, you ARE to be acknowledged and patted on the back for your wonderful efforts and achievements. Not everyone can successfully raise two young pigeons as you have without having hands on experience and working from nil. You're a good person full of respect for nature. You do the board "proud" by your accomplishment and views, Great job here!


Thank you for your kind words.  (It doesn't mean I don't worry about them when they're gone or get misty-eyed at the thought that there's certainly a chance I won't see them again. I guess I'm just a Mom. LOL)


----------



## surfingpigeon (Apr 28, 2005)

I just want to give a thank you to everyone who believes my intentions for animals. I love animals, and since I can remember I've always cared for one. 

To receive such hateful comments from anyone is a shock. I came here to seek personal advice about one of my favorite type of birds. Although I can't imagine why accusations such as "sociopath" were addressed to me, I completely understand to leave a perfectly healthy pigeon alone. 

Since I was around nine years old, I use to visit the ponds to feed the domestic ducks and geese grains. I knew at one time they were pets, and missed the vitamins they lacked from bread. I would often see broken legged ducks and geese, pigeons with fishing wire wrapped around their feet, and poor defenseless juvenilles being run over by unsupervised children. 

I would cut off all the fishing wire off the pigeons, and set them free. I would take the ducks and geese with an infection or broken leg to a veterniarian, although money is scarce in my family. The pond I went to since I was young, still had pigeons. I use to love pigeon, espescially when they flew on my arm to receive some seeds. So of course when I see two teenagers "pigeon fishing", I responded. 

Phil, I am very sorry if I offended you in any way. I assure EVERYONE on this forum and anyone else, that my intentions were to help the little pigeon. I wanted a better life for him, a one filled with love, food that he didn't have to fight for, and clean water instead of the stagnet pond water. Eventually, I wanted him to warm up to me as a nice little pet to take care of. What I'm trying to say is, my only intention was to present a nice, safe home for the bird.

Phil also writes that I have no expeirence with birds. I have to disagree Phil, because I've always been fond of birds. So fond, that I own chickens, ducks and my grandfather previously owned pigeons aswell.

Although I was very upset to the point of tears, I wish to continue to talk and have conversations with the good people on pigeons.com. I am pleased and grateful to have such good friends already. 

Thank you.

-James F.


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Glad your back SP!


----------



## auntisocial (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks for coming back.


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi James,

Thanks for staying the course and hanging in with us @ PT in spite of unkind
words and assumptions that were made.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi James, 

Glad that you decided to post again. Were you able to get any suggestions in between all the commotion? Hopefully someone has given you some ideas that would help you decide if you would or be able to adopt another bird, if that is what you want. Pigeons are often up for adoption here in Pigeon talk or you could try your local animal shelter. Ever thought about a pair of doves, these are usually easy to obtain as well and very friendly and lovable.


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

James I too am glad you came back!!! Do you still want a pet pigeon?


----------



## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Hey James,
What do you have for chickens and ducks? My 16 yr. old son has many chickens, a few turkeys, and I have the pigeons.
Daryl


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cindy,


You mention -

"It's quite obvious surfingpigeon was thinking of the squeaker's welfare. I would venture to say the reason he was easily caught was because he was a baby.
All the responses, iincluding yours Phil, in that you agreed with the others, were suggestions on how to 'tame' this wild bird. 
It seems a tab bit unfair to now give surfingpigeon a tongue lashing because the pigeon decided to move on. "


With kindness, I must say, that what is 'obvious' to me here, is that they elected the easiest prospective victim according to their means to find one amid the Pigeons, and likely, intentionally, a 'young' one who might be presumed to 'come around' better than an older more self posessed one.

And from their description, you presume that the ostensible, explicitly stated interest of surfingpeon to "give a good home' is their motive, or primary motive, rather, than, what I take to be the case here, also explicitly stated in their post, that they were imposeing a unilateral contract or forced bargain to hold the Bird laible for keeping with him/her, to wit, the Bird owes them a debt to 'like' them for catching them and putting them in a cage with Seeds Grit and Water, (with no deference in any (other) way to the Pigeon, no interest in it's feelings on the matter, no interests in it's other dimensions of engenuous needs, no interest in it's subsequent developement into an adolescent or adult and the shifting patterns of it's needs then, ) and no interests in allowing it to grow up, or to in any way 'have' it's own feelings about any of it at any phase. 

The pretext of 'giving it a good home' in "this" actual context, kind of says to me what sp holds as an internal 'model' of what a 'home' is, and, in my view, as conjecture, this is the model they learned from it being done to them in effect.

It is, in fact 'Loveless'.

It is, in fact, 'needy'...

Needy is not the same as 'needs'...or, it is distinguished by victim making, rather than in deference to the needs of others when those 'needs' are 'healthy'.

'Needy' does not discern as to what is Healthy...it only wishes to fill it's own void, and, often, is indifferent to the cost to others, or to even be aware of those 'costs'.

Needy likes to make others into debters, in guises of helping them or other pretexts.


So, other than satisfying a facile notion of 'value' given (unilaterally imposed on it AS an enforceable 'bargain') to it, the Pigeon is to be held in debt. A debt which the Pigeon in no real way, benifits from, other than it is in-a-cage with Seeds-grit-and-water...

(If someone one did this to your child, grabbed them off the street, would you feel they were owed 'gratitude'?)

Verses, saved them from some peril, helped them, and cared about their being nurtured to gorw up and assume automomy and self posession, and respected them for it IN their manner of 'helping' them? 

This is in fact, the typical, actual 'model' of the average american 'home'.
And, it is also, technically as well as in every other way, representative of pathology and sociopathy, no matter it's pandemic occurance and normative ubiquity or invisibility to nearly everyone who themselves is a vioctim of it being done to them.

Most people never 'leave' such 'homes', and their 'debts' haunt them to their graves no matter how old they manage to become.

Or, 'obvious' to me, is that you have neither read sp's posts carefully, nor, read mine carefully, and this, please know, kindly, I am mentioning, because it is the basis of the confusion here, and, of the projections of various susbsequent posters of emotions into what has not been critically 'read'.

The primary motive here, of sp, is not to help a Pigeon ( who did not need any 'help' so far as any of us can construe), but, to impose and enforce a unilateral and coersive debt, which is premised on exploiting the Bird under pretext of 'helping them' in order to demand gratitude or affection in return.

Now, does that justify me being blunt?

Whether it does or not depends on mere decision or whim or indulgence, but, it is a worthy matter to savor and think about, or, at least, I think it is.

Deference to the engenuous needs of a Bird, to me, is the only tolerable 'motive' for our interveneing or captureing them, or our accepting the vulnerable status of them when they are injured or sick Adults or Babys.

May we find happiness and satisfactions in helping them?

Of course!

Do they give, share, and reciprocate affections?

Yes!

When Babys or youngsters, do they grow up to assume new modes of self posession and self interest and desires to act on them in the feral Worlds amid their fellows? 

Yes!

If we allow them to do so, Yes!

Does this mean that they, and we, engenuously discover the previous noble bonds of their reliance or dependance on us when they were Babys, to loosen and to reform into something else, where no dependance exists?

Yes!

This is the right order of things...

People who never got the right order of things in themselves, will find it hard to imagine there is any right order of things.


Respect for the engenuous and reasonable needs of Birds, is clearly distinct from unilateral impositions of indebtedness upon them for extracting damands of 'affection' from them, for a gratitude they are supposed to feel, for something we have done ostensibly 'for' them.

Or to have a deep sense of loss which ignores completely the Birds engenuous needs, because they 'flew' away' from being one's victim-catpive-debtee...anbd one is hearbroken, but soon seeking a new victim to do it to.

The difference between Pathos and Eros, is whether Love, and in a sense, 'Health' in a positive way, characterize the actual substance and fabric and palpable mood of a gesture or interaction or stance.

Pathology, is what remains in the absense of Eros, or, the absense of Love. Or is what is occupied in consolations for the loss of Love in one's self.

Needyness, or it's pretexts and cover stories or strategies, is not 'Love', though it will often insist, at the expense of it's victims, or at the expense of the sanity or intelligence of it's audience, that it is. It often 'insists' by imposeing violence on doubters, when it can get away with it, just to prove it's point only too well.
One sees 'human parents' do this often...

it is what was 'dopne to; them when they were children, who were 'trained' to be and remain, variously, 'dependant'.

It works, pretty good, too...

While...
Love, among other things, is an order of Truth, an order of knowable Truth and livable Truth, and, can be the actuality of what embues behaviours WITH that Truth.

Pretenses for stratedy sake, false fronts, cover stories, or even self delusions or prior justifications which seek to qualify something, are, just that...

Know the difference, and understand it....and there will be less confusions about what-is-what.

About from which 'direction'...the Sun doth 'rise'...

About Orientation...

About reality...

Love, 


Best wishs, 

Thank you for the dialogue...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Cindy,
> 
> Thank you for the dialogue...
> 
> ...


No problem, your most welcome.  

Cindy


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi surfingpigeon,


Then learn to respect them.

Learn to respect that they grow up and may wish to own their own life.

You do not own them, and so far, you have not indicated anything about respecting them in terms of anything but, 'food and water and grit' as your prisoner for life.

You allways 'loved' animals..?

Then what happenned this time with "this" Pigeon?

I see nothing of "love" having had anything to do with it.

If you knew, or were emtionally able to know, the difference between Love and your own needyness, your post would have been about how does one best assimilate juveniles INTO a wild or other flock, and how glad you were that this little Bird whom you grabbed as a youngster, how well it had grown up and so on...how it's stages of maturity and independance were something you were proud of and so on.

To alienate a Baby Pigeon so that even IT does not 'like' you, prior to it's growing up...is a pretty interesting thing to have done.

I think you should best stay away from 'animals', especially baby ones or defenseless ones.



In fact, do me a favor...

Go to Yosemite, and try your game say on a Baby Bear...

Or try it with someone, some 'animal' who can assert itself wholesomely and effectively, or who has a parent who can intervene.

Try that...

Lol...

And with sadness also...


Yours, sincerely, 



Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Phil,
What is it you're trying to do? All of us here get what you're saying - over and over and over again. Do you get that you're making an assumption about someone you've never met? Give it a rest, please.


----------



## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

All I know is that I thought about taking some ferals and protecting them by raising them at home (which I can't do - because of eviction) but then I always thought, "Well maybe the ferals have family and friends they'd miss. Maybe they wouldn't be happy with me no matter what I could give them. I wouldn't be able to give them their freedom and if people have died for freedom, how much does it mean to a pigeon?" and that's what always kept me from taking one (not that I could ever catch one, they're too fast anyways.). I try not to interfere too much in their lives. I give them food but I have reduced it in the hope that they are able to live their lives naturally. But I love pigeons, as I believe that teenager does also, but it takes a lot of strength to love them enough to let them be free and natural.

Whether or not the teenager caught the bird when it was healthy or sick, I can understand the love he/she felt for it. There's no evil in that part. It just takes understanding and strength to realize that the best way to love something free is to let it stay free. But who knows what the true story is. I'm not ready to judge the teenager yet because I don't know the whole story and I feel I shouldn't make that decision until I do.


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Well....

I have been following this thread and one thought keeps popping in my head each time I read Phils' posts.

Does anyone remember ARTY that was once here? Remember how ARTY flipped out and started writing weird posts? Well Phil each of your posts makes me think of ARTY

Hope you are ok.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Photokev, 


Happy to...!

But sinse this is a discussion in which posts are also asking me to reply, or screwing up what I had actually said, what else should I do, ignore them?


Lol...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Zookeeper, 


I regret to have to see the fatuous sarcasm and condesention of your 'concern'.

Since I of course do not know who that person was nor know what sort of of posts they had written, I am sorry you see fit to take this sort of tactic.

This is interesting isn't it, how ugly so many of you can get, over what exactly?

That I chastised someone for not being deferential to the healthy needs of a Bird? for making no mention of these needs in any way as being of any interest or concern to thyem, but for their pretext of justifaction of trying to force one to 'like' them for interfereing with it. While they lament on how sad they were at the Bird doing what was healthy for it to do, in 'escapeing' from imposed meddleing from someone trying to nake the Bird "like" them?


What is going on here, do you think, Zookeeper?


Is this a little too much like 'you' maybe?


I tell you what Zookeeper, lets make a deal -

I will start a new thread which discusses the salient issues here...

And you show me, in their succcession, with clickable links to them, the references you have in mind for your accusation, of the progression of those threads of mine which you say have gotten "wierd"...


Okay ?


For a so called Moderator, you are a little too smarmy and snide and cowardly I think, to have the requisite impartiality or guidence for a constructively guiding a thread. Or for addressing an issue head on, or even sayiong what the issue 'is' as a premis for your attentions (hostillities and cheap shots).

Instead, you are more the 'problem' here than anything you could attribute to me, who am not a so called 'moderator'.

Anyway, please show me what you are refering to, of how I have "flipped out and gotten wierd", and as I said, I will move this 'issue' of people being needy and useing animals to the animal's detriment, to another thread of it's own.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Phil,

I dont think I need to explain anything. You just keep posting away here.  This seems to be your thread and pet peeve ... I will let you keep the floor on it.


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Phil, Nobody is mistaking what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong - In your opinion this 17 year old has a mental health issue and shouldn't be keeping birds. In your opinion, they captured the bird because they needed a "friend" and wanted to force this wild bird to like them because they were needy. Everyone gets what your opinion is. Nobody is asking you to reply. The folks here are politely asking you to stop. 

I'm the most hard-headed person I know, and will defend a position to the death, but when everyone I know ask me to consider I might be wrong it sends up a red flag for me. I realize I MIGHT just be wrong. You're hanging on to the illusion that this is a pigeon related issue with all of us and we've been trying to tell you it's a people issue. You can't make assumptions about people until you know all the facts. Would you like people making assumptions about you? I could assume you're 51, single and live with 30 pigeons because you can't cut it with a human relationship, but that would be wrong of me to do. If you're going to make an assumption about someone make it on the positive side until they prove otherwise. I assume you have a good heart and the way you express it is through your unquestioning devotion to your birds.

Please understand what we're saying. This has nothing to do with pigeons. You have gone past the line with what you can say to a stranger. That's why this post has drug out for as long as it has. People are trying to tell you to back off. This isn't funny nor is it flippant. I can't tell you what to do, nor would I ever, but I'm asking you to read the post that are in opposition to you and GET what people are saying. A red flag should be going up for you.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Zookeeper, 

You are a hit and run cheap-shot maker then, and if asked to back it up, or to agree to make this constructive, and in earnest, you retreat.

You have not earned my respect.

How sad...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Photokev, 


Thank you...

I understand.

Everyone got hung up on my incidental attribution, and continues to miss entirely the 'facts' as we know them to be, from sp's initial and previous ( referenced) posting.

Okay...this is not lost on me...


How about this?

Lets just try beginning at the beinning, and reading their initial post, as far as what it "actually" said, rather than all the projection into it, of everyone's emotional 'identifications' which might not be at all "about" the facts, but, are in the way of being able to simply, critically "read" what had been written.

If this is a dead-horse, who or what do you think, "killed" it?

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Norwich-guy (Mar 6, 2005)

Well i hope i don't get roasted in here but my first pigeons were wild birds. I caught them when i was 8 years old,and for the life of me i can't remember what my motive was to get pigeons. I come from a nonpigeon family,i started raising young birds and flew the parents which came back.I met pigeon people and got some rollers and still flew all the birds together.I am very much indebted to those first wild birds i caught as i still have birds today.


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Oh Phil,

We had a member who went off the deep end and freaked out. Your posts made me think of him. What more can I say? it does not seem like anything anyone says to you is doing any good. You are just digging a deeper weird hole and each of your posts reminds me of the man who lost it on here and was banned.

I think that explains enough, do I have your respect back now? Not that it bothered me if I did not have it to begin with. 

I think everyone is trying to tell you something and you are missing the point. 

So the floor seems to remain yours.

Tanya


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil, 

Zoo Keeper is not a moderator, but I am. You are out of line here, and your words to some of the members are insulting and belittling. I'm asking you nicely, PLEASE DROP THE SUBJECT. You've monopolized this entire thread and probably succeeded in scaring James away for a second time.


----------



## photokev (Apr 15, 2005)

Phil,
I'm talking to you man to man. Ignore every other post that's preceded this one. I HAVE read the original post by SP and YOU are reading something into it that you don't know for sure is there. YOU are making a big leap that everyone here is objecting to. It's not a bird issue, it's turned into a Phil issue. 

Everyone has an opinion at any given moment, the right thing to do is keep it to yourself until you know all the facts. Think about what I'm saying. The next post from you, if your the man I hope you are, will be an apology to SP and a commitment to hold your tongue until you know all the facts. If any member of this forum turns out to be mistreating a charge in their care I'll have your back on any harsh post you submit, but you're just flat out wrong in the way you've handled this.


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Zoo Keeper is not a moderator, but I am. You are out of line here, and your words to some of the members are insulting and belittling. I'm asking you nicely, PLEASE DROP THE SUBJECT. You've monopolized this entire thread and probably succeeded in scaring James away for a second time.


Gosh Brad, I hope that is not how it came out as me being a moderator, I know I am not. I was just trying to get Phil to see he is posting out of line. Thanks for talking to him. I really feel bad for James.

Good job as a moderator


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Norwhich guy,


Cool...

I take it then you did not insist they spend their life as forced dependants, to see if you could make them like you? - that your Birds were allowed to fly and to individually assume adulthood and to grow up and elect autonomy for themselves if that were their desire? And thayt you were fond of them, and them of you, and everything was decent and easy in those ways?

Seems fine to me...

I have had many recovered ferlals, who, for having been my (de facto ) 'prisoners' while ill, and, untill they were well, live, or lived here in cages. 

Once well, and fit, if they wished to leave, they left. Sometimes, some wished to stay.

Fine with me, sometimes they stayed.

Once 'well' for some week or two, my method always has been for their 'Cages' (sometimes in turn, sometimes all together, depending on the Birds themselves) to remain "open" and all through it, their Cages respectfully belonged to them, allways, and I amcareful to be respectful to their boundaries or comforts in various ways, when I need to change Water Bowls or Seeds Bowls or bandage then or give meds or whatever. I am careful in how I interact with them to do these things. Some are very comfortable, some take a while to be comfortable.

Once well enough, they nap, roost, or perch where or as they like, and tend to elect to ocupy their cage only to eat or drink, and, so far as I could tell, were universally happy and vivid and comfortable at these phases of recovery and impending release.

When I am satisfied they are ready and fit to resume feral occupations, they follow me out side and fly around or fly off, as they see fit. Sometimes they fly back in later, sometimes they go back, I imagine, to the lives and loved ones they had been away from during their convelescence with me.

Sometimes they would bring home a mate from their newly resumed flying adventures...then, with that mate, make-a-nest and hatch their Eggs and raise wonderful Babys, who, when they grew up, would either leave when old enough, according to their own independant interior decisions, or, sometimes one would elect to stay...

On and on...

I never catpured any Bird just because I could, to force it into some submission or dependance, or, to see if I could make it isolated enough to bend to my will or whim, while pretending to do so because I 'cared' about it.

Maybe you can see the difference here, while sadly, some of us can not.

Thanks for your mentions!

Best wishes...!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pigeonpal2002,


Forgive me, but if others are insulting me, are you willing to correct them?

You have not so far, nor have you mentioned it having even happenned.


If I am being referenced and replied to, I am guilty of "monopolizeing" a thread if I 
reply?


I have remained constructive or straight-shooting, even when others have not.


I made a proposal and asked for 'Zookeeper' to substantiate his smarmy attribution of a 'comparison', and veiled insults, with their provideing links to those thread of mine which he-she feels are 'flipped out and wierd".

He/she then says I 'remind' them of someone...okay, meanwhile, where or when have I fliupped out or become 'wierd'?

If I were to say how "THEY"...'remind' me of some unflattering comparison, would you then find fault with me while ignoreing their 'insult'?

He or she can make comparisons which they do not substantiate, which are subjective, and which are not made clear, and they did not constructively elaborate on them , or back the attribution, where, my initial mention I have already reiterated many times with clearifyinf digressions or elaborations.

I think you are in error here to find me at fault for anything. Moreso, to do so while others have done a great deal to confuse and muddy the issues here.

I have started a new thread on 'ethics' as I proposed, whether 'Zookeeper' has merely made their cheap shots and retreated, or not.

If you wish me to refrain from any further postings in this thread, please show me how how others who have escalated it should be allowed to continue? Or how I shouls not be allowed to reply when they do?


Thank you,


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Phil

Since you have now chosen to address me. Let me say a few words.

My original post to you was a comparison of your behavior and a former member. He was member, then not a member, then a member again, then banned. The first time he was a member, he started making post completely off base as you are doing now.

You are attacking someone from you own personal opinion and ZERO facts. Your posts continue to get worse and more strange. If I did not know better I would think you were intoxicated with the post you are placing here. You need to have proof or facts before you talk so stern to someone. You need something to back up your attacks and you dont have anything to back them up with other than your own personal opinion.

Brad has warned you to calm down. I hope you heed the warning. 

It is looking like you have run off a new member when you are only speculating on something you dont know to be fact. You do not know this child, have not talked to him, you dont know anything except what you have formulated up in YOUR head. 

I think you need a chill pill and need to apologize to James. That is if he ever comes back to see it.

I hope Brad continues to monitor your activity.

PS I am a lady ... not a he/she


----------



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I feel a little robbed here. Felt like the mood of the group had gone thru a hard 
time, Phil had agreed to deal w/the topic that he was upset about as a separate thread, apologized, we apologized to James, and James spoke up and 
expressed what it was like to "live" through the experience. We were in the 
process of licking wounds, when instead of addressing in a separate thread
so that James could respond to some of the posts, here we go again. Who will
start a new thread so that James may feel included again? Because that was
what was happening.


----------



## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

FP,

Good Post!!!! I think James is the seeing the bad side of this forum. I will gladly start a new thread for James.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Dear Members, 

It's come to that time in the thread, closing time. Unfortunately the arguments haven't solved one thing other than maybe detering a young person from returning to the forum. We are not here to judge, read into things about an individuals way of saying things or style of writing. Written words on forums online can often be misinterpretted and the benefit of the doubt should always be extended to that person.


----------

