# PETA making up things again....



## Pigeonrh (Oct 3, 2001)

check this out and if it doesn't piss you right off your not a real pigeon lover! lol

http://www.peta.org/features/pigeon-racing-investigation-photos.aspx


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They are a bunch of idiots.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oh boy don't even get me started...lol.. They really could care less about if they look stupid or not..it is all good press to them..even us rolling our eyes at them in this thread makes them happy..


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

It amazes me how they can turn something around and make it sound soooo bad. Racers are probably some of the healthiest birds on God' green earth. Between their diet, training, breeding, and loft accommodations they live a pretty good life. Maybe they should "infiltrate" some of the racing lofts to see how the birds are treated.


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## Hareloft (Jun 26, 2011)

If our birds are being treated so bad then why do they choose to come home.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Aha! Great response!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Like I said on facebook, it's sad they have the power to brainwash people into believing their BS. They act like every pigeon racer and every club and every race is the same. It's not. But then again, a lot of pigeon rescuers seem to believe we are all the same too.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

It's WWII all over again.  Btween us and them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Unfortunately, there is a very small percentage of people that will abuse animals/birds, and provide PETA with the fodder for their outrageous stories. Dog and cock fighting, dog trainers using pigeons and other birds, research animal horror stories, etc. all tear at the hearts of people that never hear about the other side of the coin. It is these single cases that give rise to the hundreds of made up or crossly exaggerated stories that keeps PETA alive.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Same thing happened when the exterminators fooled everyone into believing pigeons are some dangerous biohazardous ball of feathers. As if everything else in the world doesn't pose an equally or greater danger to us.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hareloft said:


> If our birds are being treated so bad then why do they choose to come home.


Not saying you treat your birds badly...but I think they come home from instinct, which is why if relocated they must be kept as prisoners.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It is from instinct, but there is nothing forcing them to come home. If that was the case, there wouldn't be so many in feral flocks. They'd keep trying instead. I know someone who has so many hawks hanging around the loft that they are always on edge. Lets them out and they just leave and don't come back. Birds without mates, if drawn into a feral flock, may stick around too once they bond with one. In the end, the birds love to fly and leave their home and come back naturally. That's how we discovered their amazing ability. Even when you let them out to fly around your home they will go out of sight sometimes for hours before coming back over the house and go in another direction. I don't see how it is so bad. Yes, there are dangers, but that is the case regardless of being trained/raced or just letting them out for exercise. We could keep them caged up forever but PETA wouldn't like that either. They are the ones who want us to let all the animals go.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pigeons who love their loft come home to it.. because keepers make it that way.


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## salenahaas (Apr 9, 2012)

Pigeonrh said:


> check this out and if it doesn't piss you right off your not a real pigeon lover! lol
> 
> http://www.peta.org/features/pigeon-racing-investigation-photos.aspx


I went to this site. Did you notice the last picture says they "rescued" the culling (killing) of pigeons and sent tem to a sanctuary. What PETA is GOOD at is STEALING people's pets without their knowledge. They are erratic, crazy people. I do know they will take people's pets, or show animals and say it was bc of a rescue.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I only wish that there was some way to have PETA members, and their followers, come to forums such as ours to read the threads from people caring for these birds, sometimes at a very high personal cost to the care givers. Or read about the care given to sick and injured birds, and the number of people who have spent so much time and energy learning about treatments because good vet care is not always available. If they want to be outraged, why don't they talk about the people who can't get care for animals because vets either don't have the experience, or simply don't seem to care about pigeons and doves. And on and on and on!!!!!!! And yet we are still the bad ones. We take in so many injured/sick birds, and go thru the pits of Hell to save them. PETA lets animals free that have never known anything but cage life, and will die horrible deaths. But we are the bad guys. Yup! It all makes sense to me.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Personally...I think there is truth to both sides. Not to divert, but I know for a fact we have some members that sell birds for dog training.
PETA is not just all wrong and members here are not just all wrong. Good people exist in PETA and there are good people at Pigeon Talk. 

IMO...some keepers really care about their pigeons while others view them as disposable chattel. The difference creates an on going conflict. I can tell the difference between the two and it's not fair to lump all together,r but there are both elements.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

PETA does not turn loose unwanted pets they kill them. or at least thats the way I read this.
Dave

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...saWRDw&usg=AFQjCNFZf7KxGoyyALJkeakDl0jhnF0jiQ


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> Personally...I think there is truth to both sides. Not to divert, but I know for a fact we have some members that sell birds for dog training.
> PETA is not just all wrong and members here are not just all wrong. Good people exist in PETA and there are good people at Pigeon Talk.
> 
> IMO...some keepers really care about their pigeons while others view them as disposable chattel. The difference creates an on going conflict. I can tell the difference between the two and it's not fair to lump all together,r but there are both elements.


Charis - I stand corrected. Of course you're right. However, some of Peta's programs/ideas do lead to as much suffering as others that have helped. 

Crazy Pete - my reference is the thousands of lab animals, not pets, that they have turned loose in the name of freedom. Pets are another major problem. Rats, mice, rabbits, ferrets, dogs, cats, even primates, have been let loose around the world. Without growing up in their natural environment, most die of starvation, predation, poisoning, or other horrible ways. I don't want to start an argument about lab animals, but the release can and is, as bad as what they might be facing in labs.

Again, in a better world....


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

PETA is quite selective about the 'causes' it makes the most noise about, to get public support (and, of course, donations!). If, for example, PETA stated very prominently that they were opposed to guide dogs for the blind I expect a lot of folks would be outraged. Truth is, however, that PETA and all the other AR organizations are opposed to _anything_ which even hints of animal 'exploitation'. That is quite evident from their views on 'pets' which, if ever actually put into practise, would - over time - see a total end to 'pets' (or 'companion animals' if you prefer).


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## salenahaas (Apr 9, 2012)

Yep. I agree 100%. They don't think at all. They just ACT.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2012)

People should take the advice PETA gave and write to attorney general Eric Holder... just not in the favor of PETA. Who knows it might actually be a step in the right direction to put a stop to those tree huggers. Lets all hear it for PETA... Pigeons Excreting on Those Arseholes


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## sarogopal (Jan 24, 2011)

SAD.If its true i pray God gives humans sense to be humane.


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

THEY MAKE ME ANGRY!!!!!! they want to make pet ownership illegal also, as a responsible dog owner/breeder/exhibitor they put me in the same category as a puppy mill, when i have spent thousands on my dogs with proper nutrition, vet care and health testing, plus my whole life revolves around them and of course my birds, if they spent money actually helping animals in need it would be different, the HSUS is another front for PETA, never give them money, if people want to help animals donate to the ASPCA, they actually help animals in need and educate people about proper animal husbandry and care. that's my rant of the day


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## salenahaas (Apr 9, 2012)

Charis said:


> Personally...I think there is truth to both sides. Not to divert, but I know for a fact we have some members that sell birds for dog training.
> PETA is not just all wrong and members here are not just all wrong. Good people exist in PETA and there are good people at Pigeon Talk.
> 
> IMO...some keepers really care about their pigeons while others view them as disposable chattel. The difference creates an on going conflict. I can tell the difference between the two and it's not fair to lump all together,r but there are both elements.


I agree. some of their members are radical, some are joining for the true cause. I for one will not sell to dog trainers. It's a shame, though, that PETA has gotten a bad rap, and that is BECAUSE of the members that are radical. I personally have known a few radicals from that group. I worked with one years ago, and got the up front and close answers to the way they behave- I did not like it one bit. Just saying.......... Its hard to pick the good ones from the bad ones with that group, so for me, I have and will stay clear of them.


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## Pigeon observer (Apr 28, 2012)

Thats what PETA does... make things up


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

OK, now let's get off the subject of dog training with birds. It isn't a discussion that's particularly welcome on PT, and it really isn't anything to do with this PETA business.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> OK, now let's get off the subject of dog training with birds. It isn't a discussion that's particularly welcome on PT, and it really isn't anything to do with this PETA business.


Then why are their posts allowed. Not too smart to mention dog training, other than to agitate. Ask for birds and be done with it. No need to antagonize!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Anyone want to take a guess who the "Handsome" liberator is in the picture of the birds coming out of the truck ?? The guy is wearing a light grey pull over,and has a West Virginia hat on his head....Alamo

PETA stands for "Idiots" for the well being of animals,that they know "Nothing" about...I take better care of my birds then any dog or cat owner that I know here where I live....

Also:*Most people can care less about pigeons*...Peta will not get $$ from ordinary folks,because we have racing pigeons,and gamble on them....Just like many people here that know me....They like me,but, they can care less about my birds...I tried to get a couple interested in flying birds,but there`s no interest....They think the hobby sounds interesting,buy nobody will take the hobby up for themselves....


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Charis said:


> Personally...I think there is truth to both sides. Not to divert, but I know for a fact we have some members that sell birds for dog training.
> PETA is not just all wrong and members here are not just all wrong. Good people exist in PETA and there are good people at Pigeon Talk.
> 
> IMO...some keepers really care about their pigeons while others view them as disposable chattel. The difference creates an on going conflict. I can tell the difference between the two and it's not fair to lump all together,r but there are both elements.


That's about the size of it, actually; and the most measured comment I have read yet on this thread. It is one thing to bring these things to the attention to the public and another thing to fabricate.

Unfortunately, a lot of you folks believe that PETA fabricates.

They do not; they have quite an extended legal dept., actually. And although it would be fair to say that their positions can be extreme, if you bother looking at it in the larger context, it is the organizations MO to be 'in your face' and a bit unconventional for the precise reason that the 'softer' more 'socially acceptable' campaigns against animal abuse over the past 3+ generations have been such miserable failures. They force people to think about things...often, uncomfortable things. If some of the positions they stake are extreme...it is not without a purpose which is oftentimes quite laudable.

But maybe that is too much to ask...hoping that someone might actually consider the entire context under which an animal rights organization operates; the context of the issue at hand; the context of how our society chooses to treat (or ignore) the beings we share our existence with. That's a hecka lot to have to think about !!! As opposed to just feeling personally attacked.... and therefore insisting that they are a bunch of liars....and posting comments which really do not leave particularly good impressions, either....

...the latter is so much easier to do...and provides such a nice visceral charge, eh ?

So although a kneejerk reaction of one who keeps and races Homers might be to say "it's all a complete lie"...I have yet to see anyone in this thread actually do much to back up that claim that there is no basis . While PETA actually can argue, document, and back up most of what they do say. Albeit in some instances they may be extreme cases and perhaps (arguably) not 'common' by the standards of the members who hang out here or even the majority of the racing society...that in and of itself does not automatically discount the subject. You can choose to generalize if you like, but in many (I would say most) cases the issues and abuses they raise are quite common, and just generally not talked about or on society's radar.

Indeed, most folks here are quite caring about their Homers....and some are not. Just like in the larger world.

But that doesn't mean one can just go ahead and bash an organization that has brought this to the public's attention. Or rather...I should point out that 
it is just as hard to take anyone (of you) seriously in your venting, angry, ridiculous retorts either....

One certainly _can_ vent all they like....and probably y'all treat your birds pretty darn well, too. But that doesn't discount much of what PETA brings up....and quite honestly....the tastlessness and ugliness and digressiveness of some of these comments here really become nothing more than the typical angry political polemics which our society seems to crave so much these days....

...pretty ugly, pretty boring, and certainly difficult to take seriously at all....if the purpose of this thread was to be taken seriously in the first place.....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye, I have to say that your comment was amazingly right on! And put very well. Thank you.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Where is PETA when they have the pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

almondman said:


> Charis - I stand corrected. Of course you're right. However, some of Peta's programs/ideas do lead to as much suffering as others that have helped.
> 
> Crazy Pete - my reference is the thousands of lab animals, not pets, that they have turned loose in the name of freedom. Pets are another major problem. Rats, mice, rabbits, ferrets, dogs, cats, even primates, have been let loose around the world. Without growing up in their natural environment, most die of starvation, predation, poisoning, or other horrible ways. I don't want to start an argument about lab animals, but the release can and is, as bad as what they might be facing in labs.
> 
> Again, in a better world....


You are correct I just get carried away when I find people crazier than me.
Dave


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

grifter said:


> Where is PETA when they have the pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania?


They do fight against the pigeon shoots in Pa. and have stopped some.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

These are obviously ethical issues being brought up. Arguing what is or is not moral is based on how you view the world. People at PETA hold to a philosophy and people outside of people hold to a different philosophy. Why waste your time challenging people when they will only change if you challenge there philosophical foundation.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Alamo said:


> Anyone want to take a guess who the "Handsome" liberator is in the picture of the birds coming out of the truck ?? The guy is wearing a light grey pull over,and has a West Virginia hat on his head...Alamo....


Congratulations on your big movie part. . I wonder if the ARPU Lawyers are big enough to battle PETA. There may be parts of that video which could be considered defamation, libel, or some other big legal word.


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## sunshineracinglofts (Sep 1, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> These are obviously ethical issues being brought up. Arguing what is or is not moral is based on how you view the world. People at PETA hold to a philosophy and people outside of people hold to a different philosophy. Why waste your time challenging people when they will only change if you challenge there philosophical foundation.



the best thing said here THANKS FOR SHARING, morality is a subjective period.


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## Guest (May 1, 2012)

Jaye said:


> That's about the size of it, actually; and the most measured comment I have read yet on this thread. It is one thing to bring these things to the attention to the public and another thing to fabricate.
> 
> Unfortunately, a lot of you folks believe that PETA fabricates.
> 
> ...


When PETA stops generalizing about everyone I might think about not generalizing about them


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

May I ask what in that video is untrue? 

What exactly has y'all so fired up: The message or the messenger?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

sunshineracinglofts said:


> the best thing said here THANKS FOR SHARING, morality is a subjective period.


Well morality is actually absolute, but what people claim is subjective. I'll leave it at that for me here. Future explanation on the matter would ultimately not be accepted on the forum. Just stating the approach both sides take is poor.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I didn't even watch the video. I was going on the article page where they try to make you think EVERY club bets, EVERY racer kills late birds, EVERY race has more loses than returns, then they go as far as to say the sport is illegal. We get about 96 percent of our birds home as a combine. We don't bet on birds and we are certainly not in it for the money. We get a piece of paper that says our bird placed  There are a LOT of races that do not bring in money and a lot of clubs that don't even pool money or award any money at all for winning. Hell, a lot of clubs don't even give out trophies, like mine for example. We do it because we enjoy it. Are there people who treat their birds badly? Yes. Are there people who are in it for the wrong reasons? Yes. But it is totally unfair to attack all pigeon racers going off of ONE CLUB. It's like the "studies" on commericals that show "4 out of 5 dentists recommend this toothpaste" well maybe if you'd consult more than 5 dentists you'd find that brand of toothpaste actually sucks. They purposely twist things to make it sound in their favor. Like the picture of the guy holding the birds neck extended. He isn't hurting the bird but they make sure you think he is. There's more I could point out that's simply screwed up with the whole thing but I won't bother. Now I know someone is going to call me a hypocrit for grouping all of PETAs members when I'm against them grouping all of us. But please, direct me to a AU or IF webpage that promotes cruel and abusive acts. Are there good people in PETA? Of course! There are some really #$#[email protected]$ up people there too. Including the ones who are obviously in charge or their website would not be the way it is. It would be more truthful and in depth rather than skewing everything for their own personal gain. The extremists do not help their case either. Like the people who were caught here in NC "adopting" animals from shelters promising they would find homes for them, feeding them their last meal in a van, then killing them and dumping the bodies in the dumpsters of fast food restaurants.


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## drifter (Oct 7, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> They do fight against the pigeon shoots in Pa. and have stopped some.


They probably just pretend to fight against them so they can draw in more donations. As long as the pigeon shoots continue they have a real cash cow.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

Kastle Loft said:


> May I ask what in that video is untrue?


*30 seconds in... "hundreds of these birds did not make it back alive"*

Who's to say some of those birds aren't living the good life under and overpass, in and old barn, or in another fancier's loft?

*33 seconds in... "1300 birds originally registered for this race, did not even survive training"
*
See comment above.

*1:58 in.... "the birds who finish out of the money and those not kept for breeding, are usually killed by the pigeon racers after the season"*

Sure some of that happens, but USUALLY? Just trying to sound more horrific.

*2:40 in... "to Pigeon Racers, birds to don't win money are considered a waste of time, and disposed of like a losing lottery ticket"*

That statement includes all Pigeon Racers, once again trying to make it sound worse.


I guess they are partially right.... In our club, we have some big time wagering. The winner of the previous race has to bring a treat to share for the next race's basketing.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Has everyone had the opportunity to read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Pigeons-Fascinating-Worlds-Revered-Reviled/dp/0802143288?tag=vig-20


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Morality - is it when the mink farmer humanelymad puts down his animals to collect the hide, or when PETA raids the mink farm, let's the mink loose to starve to death, get run over by cars, or suffer other untimely deaths.

Morality - is it when researchers use lab animals to find a cure for both human and animal diseases, or when PETA lets loose animals that are sick with God knows what disease, to spread it among mankind, or other animals. 

These are extreme, but honest, cases of how some in PETA work. Those happened. No one can change these facts.

Does PETA have a place in the scheme of things, do we need our consciousness and awareness of animal abuse raised, and are there good, well meaning, people 
in PETA? The answer is YES! 
Do we need a few bad apples making up lies, sensationalizing stories, and in some cases, causing far worse abuse to animals than many of their protests are about. NO

The point that there are good and bad in both camps is well documented. But we all have a right to our beliefs and opinions. When any organization calls for the outright ban on eating meat, having pets, or using animals to find cures for diseases that can cause problems for both humans and animals, and literally think it is okay to destroy other people's lives, kill animals to protect them from abuse, and stretch the truth about as far as they can without being guilty of libel, I think this amounts to a form of terrorism and if PETA is really all that some of you say, they need to start policing their members a lot better.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Ashby Loft said:


> *30 seconds in... "hundreds of these birds did not make it back alive"*
> 
> Who's to say some of those birds aren't living the good life under and overpass, in and old barn, or in another fancier's loft?
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing these out.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

So what I'm reading from most of you is that none of what PETA says is true? All pigeon racing people are kind and caring, valuing each bird as an individual? Is that right?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis - please read posts 37 and 44. And there may be others. Some of what they say is true. Some of it gets sensationalized, and some of it has been proven untrue.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

I have news. A vet office is fighting to revoke PTEA's classification as an animal shelter.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I don't understand why folks can't fess up to the things that are true and work to correct them..or not correct them but just be honest about it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The majority of what I have seen them say is not necessarily wrong, but it isn't truthful. I don't think any of us claimed that all pigeon racers were kind and caring and value every bird. What we did say is that PETA is wrong in claiming that all pigeon races are basically cruel, abusive, and heartless killers.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

PETA also has a kill shelter with a high kill rate. Two PETA workers were convicted of dumping pet animals that they killed.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I think what they are saying is probably truthful in some situations and I also think they have a right to expose the not so nice side of racing. 100's of pigeons do die or get culled and hundreds get lost and starve but I agree with Becky that most racing people are good people and treat birds well. Also I agree with Almondman that racers are kept well - better than a lot of fancies I have seen but we all need to admit that for some of the birds their lifes aint good - short or long. So maybe Peta have a right to do what they are doing and if none of you guys are guilty of what they are saying- why so defensive?


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## jchaas76 (Apr 11, 2012)

grifter said:


> Where is PETA when they have the pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania?


I have been told that PETA has been to the Hegins pigeon shoot and the year that PETA was there the little town of Hegins made so much money from lodging, restaurants, etc. that they decided to once again hold the shoot publicly the following year just to bring in money. The following year they didn't get the turnout that they expected from PETA so now the shoots are held on private property.

Now like I said, This is what I've been told so it is heresay. Does anyone have the actual facts on this?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I think what they are saying is probably truthful in some situations and I also think they have a right to expose the not so nice side of racing. 100's of pigeons do die or get culled and hundreds get lost and starve but I agree with Becky that most racing people are good people and treat birds well. Also I agree with Almondman that racers are kept well - better than a lot of fancies I have seen but we all need to admit that for some of the birds their lifes aint good - short or long. So maybe Peta have a right to do what they are doing and if none of you guys are guilty of what they are saying- why so defensive?


I'm defensive because I race and I do care about my birds. I also care about the future of the sport and the overall reputation of us and other pigeon fanciers. What exactly are you implying by that last sentence?

Do they have a right to make things sound worse than they actually are? Applying false statistics? What they are doing is NOT the correct way to go about stopping illegal gambling and getting fanciers to treat their birds humanely if they don't already do so.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm defensive because I race and I do care about my birds. I also care about the future of the sport and the overall reputation of us and other pigeon fanciers. What exactly are you implying by that last sentence?
> 
> Do they have a right to make things sound worse than they actually are? Applying false statistics? What they are doing is NOT the correct way to go about stopping illegal gambling and getting fanciers to treat their birds humanely if they don't already do so.


I am Implying that some people that do not like PETA probably don't like them because they are guilty themselves of culling a late bird.

The thing is hundreds of birds do die and hundreds registered for the race don;t make it - Sure some are in the safety of a loft, some lost and living the hard life forraging for food and the others are put in the ground by their fanciers. I personally think they are not making it worse than it is, Just exposing some truths, 

I agree - Not everyone that racers treat birds as a money maker but lots do and I'm sure you know many people that love their birds but still cull them due to population control. There is no natural selection when we keep our birds in lofts so some fanciers keep the numbers down themselves.

What is false about the stats they have provided?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

There always is some grain of truth in all that they report. Pure and simple! But they usually go way beyond the facts, and end up making broad statements that either blurs the truth, or makes everyone look bad in whatever they are reporting. If they just stuck to the truth, and only reported real abuses. I would back them 100%. 

And they have a really bad record when it comes to "liberating" animals. The ongoing truth behind many of their so called releases, is the animals are much worse off, and die much more horribly, than if they had been left alone. This is fact. Not sensationalism! 

The good people in PETA need to kick out whoever is making the bad decisions that keeps the organization so controversial.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Actually there is naturally selection. Birds who don't make it home for whatever reason, cannot pass anything on to offspring.

Anyway, I do believe they are making it sound worse than it really is. If you raced you would realize that. They are going off everything one person experienced from one club. Like I said before, we get nearly 100% of our birds home. Whereas they make it sound like every club, every person loses over half of their birds each race. How is that not making it sound worse than it really is?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

almondman said:


> There always is some grain of truth in all that they report. Pure and simple! But they usually go way beyond the facts, and end up making broad statements that either blurs the truth, or makes everyone look bad in whatever they are reporting. If they just stuck to the truth, and only reported real abuses. I would back them 100%.
> 
> And they have a really bad record when it comes to "liberating" animals. The ongoing truth behind many of their so called releases, is the animals are much worse off, and die much more horribly, than if they had been left alone. This is fact. Not sensationalism!
> 
> The good people in PETA need to kick out whoever is making the bad decisions that keeps the organization so controversial.


I agree 100%.


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## Ashby Loft (Aug 31, 2007)

*Ethical*
_adjective_
1.
*pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.*
2.
being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.
3.
(of drugs) sold only upon medical prescription. 

PETA takes the worst examples they can find and paint ALL involved with a broad brush. Sure there are bad apples in any group, sport, hobby, profession and interest. What is "Ethical" is different for everybody. Depends on where you live, how you were raised, and what your own morals are. I enjoy a lot of things that PETA would like to take away, which are perfectly ethical in my world. Including eating at KFC if I feel like it.

I feel it is unethical to try and force views and opinions on others.

Charis.... there are some bad things in that video for sure. But nowhere do they say "some pigeon racers" they falsely include all pigeon racers and if they had their way, would ruin it for all.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Actually there is naturally selection. Birds who don't make it home for whatever reason, cannot pass anything on to offspring.
> 
> Anyway, I do believe they are making it sound worse than it really is. If you raced you would realize that. They are going off everything one person experienced from one club. Like I said before, we get nearly 100% of our birds home. Whereas they make it sound like every club, every person loses over half of their birds each race. How is that not making it sound worse than it really is?


I cannot find the video but I read the article and nothing is exaggerated or unfactual. They simply state the facts of racing - Maybe the article was written by one of the good people in PETA.

Also I may not race but I have been to many crating up meetings aswell as scoring nights and I have a good friend that races so I think its a bit rude of you to dismiss my opinion based on some idea you have that because I do not race I musn't know anything about it.

As much as you love your birds, you must be able to admit that some of them have not made it home and have either starved to death or been a nice meal for a predator, so even if they are exagerating the frequency of these occurences you cannot tell me they do not happen to everyones birds at some stage, I mean come on, How Naive would any racer be to say none of their birds have suffered at some stage.

I agree that MOST racing pigeons are well looked after - but we cannot control everything that happens on raceday and us choosing to send the birds into that situation can lead to birds suffering.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Ashby Loft said:


> *Ethical*
> _adjective_
> 1.
> *pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.*
> ...


Do they say " ALL pigeon racers" anywhere in the video, Or just Pigeon racers. Pigeon racers is a general term, It could be intepreted to include All pigeon racers but that is not actually what they are saying.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

They could have made it sound better by saying "some" and "may" to avoid misinterpretation.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> They could have made it sound better by saying "some" and "may" to avoid misinterpretation.


I agree they could have made a lot of things sound better, But that was not their Intent, I agree also that they showed the bad side of the sport, But I think good on them- Maybe if they expose the bad side then more people will do things right and treat the birds well, Exposure after all is the best way to fix something thats wrong.

I agree also that they made things sound worse than they were but I could not find anything untruthful in the whole article - Also I just saw the vid and I did not think that was to far from the truth either - Considering most of it was ann interview with a racing pigeon club - How can Peta be accused for ecxagerating when most of it was what the "Bronx racing club" were admitting too. 

My guess is they are not the best club out there but if they exist how many others are there like it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I cannot find the video but I read the article and nothing is exaggerated or unfactual. They simply state the facts of racing - Maybe the article was written by one of the good people in PETA.
> 
> Also I may not race but I have been to many crating up meetings aswell as scoring nights and I have a good friend that races so I think its a bit rude of you to dismiss my opinion based on some idea you have that because I do not race I musn't know anything about it.
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll just leave my birds locked up indefinitely as to not expose them to predators and other natural dangers. Have some of them starved? Possibly. But unlikely unless injured or sick and unable to fend for themselves. With all the farms around here and feral flocks it is hard for me to believe one of my birds just sat there and didn't eat when I have watched them forage around my yard. But yes, it is definitely possible they have starved to death. We have so many hawks, owls, and other predators here that I also find it unlikely they had to suffer long before being eaten. Which makes me feel better about it that they are supporting the wildlife instead of just slowly dying away.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Along with everything I have already said, I worry about the impression an article or video like those under discussion might have on anyone looking to get into birds. Racing, showing, or just keeping pets. If I read just the article, with it's broad, sweeping statements, I certainly would think twice about getting birds myself, wanting my kids to have them, or wanting the pigeons(or owners) living next door. 

Another problem is that there just isn't any rebuttal to their stories. The public only hears one side of the discussion. PETA has the money, the stars, the media contacts to brainwash an uneducated public into believing the broadest statements, whether 100% truthful or not. 

Theirs is not a public forum. If you try to speak out by sending any form of rebuttal, they just choose to ignore it. Or light you up as one of the abusers.
How is this fair, and rebuttable journalism. We have more access to everyone's opinions and thoughts here on PT.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree they could have made a lot of things sound better, But that was not their Intent, I agree also that they showed the bad side of the sport, But I think good on them- Maybe if they expose the bad side then more people will do things right and treat the birds well, Exposure after all is the best way to fix something thats wrong.
> 
> I agree also that they made things sound worse than they were but I could not find anything untruthful in the whole article - Also I just saw the vid and I did not think that was to far from the truth either - Considering most of it was ann interview with a racing pigeon club - How can Peta be accused for ecxagerating when most of it was what the "Bronx racing club" were admitting too.
> 
> My guess is they are not the best club out there but if they exist how many others are there like it.


I have just one question, what is the difference between untruthful and "not too far from the truth". If it was truthful, it wouldn't be far from it at all because it would BE the truth.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

almondman said:


> Along with everything I have already said, I worry about the impression an article or video like those under discussion might have on anyone looking to get into birds. Racing, showing, or just keeping pets. If I read just the article, with it's broad, sweeping statements, I certainly would think twice about getting birds myself, wanting my kids to have them, or wanting the pigeons(or owners) living next door.
> 
> Another problem is that there just isn't any rebuttal to their stories. The public only hears one side of the discussion. PETA has the money, the stars, the media contacts to brainwash an uneducated public into believing the broadest statements, whether 100% truthful or not.
> 
> ...


Once again, I agree with everything you have said. What they are after is getting pigeon racing make illegal, not to improve it.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Untruthful is not true- What they are saying is true but it does not apply to everyone in the sport.

Not far from the truth was a bad choice of words, I was meaning that what they say is true in some cases but not all.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

almondman said:


> There always is some grain of truth in all that they report. Pure and simple! But they usually go way beyond the facts, and end up making broad statements that either blurs the truth, or makes everyone look bad in whatever they are reporting. If they just stuck to the truth, and only reported real abuses. I would back them 100%.
> 
> *And they have a really bad record when it comes to "liberating" animals. The ongoing truth behind many of their so called releases, is the animals are much worse off, and die much more horribly, than if they had been left alone. This is fact. Not sensationalism! *
> 
> The good people in PETA need to kick out whoever is making the bad decisions that keeps the organization so controversial.


I could be mistaken, but I think that is the Animal Liberation Front that has done lab animal release.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Charis said:


> I could be mistaken, but I think that is the Animal Liberation Front that has done lab animal release.


Indeed. They (or one of their offshoots) were responsible for breaking into a Mink farm in the UK and 'liberating' a whole load of Mink into the English countryside. Many of the animals died, simply because they were unable to cope with a totally unfamiliar environment. Some were seen wandering aimlessly and trying to get back into the establishment. Others created havoc amongst native wildlife unequipped to deal with such predators.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*PETA and Eco-Terrorism*

As I read through all the posts by people supporting the ideas of PETA and those venting about the actions of PETA, I would question the truth in anything they say. I am am reminded of articles published on Yahoo "PETA: When Animal Rights Becomes Terrorism and Crime" as previously well meaning people use "animal rights" as an excuse to advocate the murder and maiming of human beings. As far as I am concerned, any credibility they may have once had, was gone once they linked arms with criminals and terrorists. 


James Jarboe, "Testimony of James F. Jarboe, Domestic Terrorism Section Chief, Counterterrorism Division, FBI, Before the House Resources Committee, Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health, February 12, 2002,"The Threat of Eco-Terrorism." FBI. URL:

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/the-threat-of-eco-terrorism


"7 Things You Didn't Know About PETA." The Center for Consumer Freedom. URL: 

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/2009/11/4032-exposing-the-animal-rights-agenda/

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/21-people-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals


John Hawkins, "Quotes from the Animal Rights Movement." Rightwingnews.com. URL: (http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/animal.php)


In closing, I share some of the words from the Eco-Terrorists themselves. 

*Murder And Mayhem*

In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors. -- Tim Daley, British Animal Liberation Front Leader (BBC interview, 1987).

Fire is a tool. Nothing does the amount of damage that fire can. Arson works. Make sure that all buildings or vehicles are free of creatures before lighting one single match. Arson should only be used when it can be guaranteed that the fire will not spread to the sheds the animals are in. -- (In the ALF publication "The Final Nail", under section entitled "Smashing the Furriers").

It would be really great if all these fast-food outlets, slaughter houses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow -- *Peta Spokesperson Bruce Friedrich.*

If the feed barn, and processing barns are away from the animals, and downwind, then they could be burned down. Otherwise mink releases are the only way to go. -- J.P. Goodwin while executive director of the Coalition Against the Fur Trade (As quoted on AR-Views, an animal rights Internet discussion group).

We are capable of dealing with anyone. No one has died yet but that time will come. -- Keith Mann of ALF, as quoted in the Evening Standard [London, Dec. 8, 1998). Mann was sentenced in 1994 to 14 years in prison for leading a gang which, in 1991, attacked almost 700 businesses in Manchester, UK.

Andrew Cunanan, because he got Versace to stop doing fur. -- PETA's David Mathews reply to Genre magazine's request for "Men We Love".

Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause. -- *Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA.*

I would be overjoyed when the first scientist is killed by a liberation activist. -- Vivien Smith of ALF (USA Today, September 3, 1991).


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I suspect a lot of people out there have the wrong idea about PETA and its aims. It is not an animal _welfare_ organization, it is an animal_ rights_ organization - and these are just not the same thing. 

Yes, PETA does put work into animal welfare - and that is obviously a positive - but how many of those who may support them on that basis look any deeper? It does not take much research, since their agenda is pretty obvious from their website and from quotes by their 'officers', but I do wonder if many people even look.

As far as pigeon racing is concerned, PETA's ultimate aim is to get it abolished, since this is their aim for any and all use (or 'exploitation') of animals by people. In a world in which PETA's agenda became a universal rule of law we would all be vegans, and 'domestic' and 'companion' animals of any kind would become extinct. OK, the chances of that actually happening are virtually zero, since people do not like to be told what they 'should' eat, whether or not they 'should' have pets, or much of anything else, but I'd prefer that they drop their bottom line agenda and just focus on welfare issues.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

No doubt that PETA over-dramatized some facets of racing (like "life-long loving mates being separated from each other and their babies). They also implied (but didn't state as fact), that the guy was harming a bird when he was in fact just pulling it's beak to check it's vigor. That's very obviously twisting the truth to get an emotional response. But the overall message remains, and you can't dispute their overall points: There is a lot of gambling (possibly illegal), a lot of birds are lost and their fate undetermined, and MANY (SOME? A FEW?) fanciers lethally cull.

Let's say for a moment that the language PETA used has the qualifiers "SOME pigeon fanciers" or "many birds were lost and POSSIBLY died during training."

Would those of you on this forum still be pissed at them? I think so. I think we're not happy having the mirror turned on us as a collective group. 

Yes, a few bad apples can stink up the whole room. But I still don't see anything blatantly untrue in their video. I'm not happy with sweeping generalizations either, but PETA sees a problem that needs exposing. And if we see it as a problem, too, why should we be angry? Shouldn't we, as humane lovers of pigeons, want to see our brothers and sisters in the Bronx or the AU Convention race clean up their acts? Obviously the AU isn't striving to do anything about it. 

If we love our birds so much, shouldn't we be applauding the effort to stop those who are breaking the law and abusing their birds?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> I could be mistaken, but I think that is the Animal Liberation Front that has done lab animal release.


ALF has also been responsible for many "liberations", but PETA has been involved in many similar actions in this country. Either by direct action, aiding and abetting the action, or condoning/publicizing such action, which in my book is just as bad.


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## Guest (May 1, 2012)

I don't even race pigeons so this latest action of theirs really has little to do with my disliking of PETA... I have many many issues with them. When I lost any hope of ever agreeing with anything to do with them came when they launched their ad campaign portraying a battered and bruised woman as a "joke".


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

My personal belief is that the worst thing that can happen to a homing pigeon is that it may not make it home from a race. The article implies that all these birds that are lost will die. To me this is complete nonsense. My gosh folks,they are birds and lets give them a little credit. They are smart enough to find water and food. I think the vast majority find a feral flock and fit right in.


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## Vova (Mar 27, 2012)

If you take any picture from a low angle and blur out faces you can make it look bad


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Vova said:


> If you take any picture from a low angle and* blur out faces you can make it look bad*


Agreed. It can be.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

beatlemike said:


> My personal belief is that the worst thing that can happen to a homing pigeon is that it may not make it home from a race. The article implies that all these birds that are lost will die. To me this is complete nonsense. My gosh folks,they are birds and lets give them a little credit. They are smart enough to find water and food. I think the vast majority find a feral flock and fit right in.


Many many of them _do_ die. Yes, they are birds. They are birds that have been raised in a loft for generations, and having their food and water brought to them daily. A strong homing ability and speed may have been bred into them. But knowing how to survive in the wild has been bred out. That would be like taking a rich kid, dropping him off on the streets of New York, and expecting that he would be street smart enough to get by. Maybe join a gang (_flock_), and fit right in, and be just fine. If this were the case, then with all the birds that are lost during training and racing, 3/4 of the feral flocks would be wearing bands, and this just isn't so. You may see some out there, but not nearly as many as are lost. I know it makes people who lose them feel better believing this, but they are fooling themselves. Some do make it, but most do not. And the ones that do get to deal with predation and living in a hostile environment, where they are being poisoned, huddled together in the snow during winter, and scrounging around for food. Many will freeze and starve in cold areas. Many will become sick with canker from the stress of such a life change, and will die of that.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kastle Loft said:


> No doubt that PETA over-dramatized some facets of racing (like "life-long loving mates being separated from each other and their babies). They also implied (but didn't state as fact), that the guy was harming a bird when he was in fact just pulling it's beak to check it's vigor. That's very obviously twisting the truth to get an emotional response. *But the overall message remains, and you can't dispute their overall points: There is a lot of gambling (possibly illegal), a lot of birds are lost and their fate undetermined, and MANY (SOME? A FEW?) fanciers lethally cull.*
> 
> Let's say for a moment that the language PETA used has the qualifiers "SOME pigeon fanciers" or "many birds were lost and POSSIBLY died during training."
> 
> ...


 I do, and I can dispute their so called "points". 

You are of course entitled to your PETA supportive views, but your assuming that their statements are fact, when they are nothing more then pure fabrication. Far as I am concerned, there is nothing in the Bronx nor the AU Convention race that needs to be cleaned up. 

As an example the false accusation that there is gambling, there is not. No need for the AU or anyone else to strive to clean up something that does not exist. Just as you have no evidence that many, some, or even a few, do lethal culling. As far as birds becoming "lost", since PETA members themselves have illegally entered mink ranches and released them from their protective closures to die in the wild, I am thinking that a pigeon deciding not to return home, is not the same thing as a "lost" pigeon. I don't know how one presumes that a bird which chooses not to return home is in fact "lost" and facing some kind of terrible blight, again just simply untrue.

I don't know of any pigeon fancier which abuses his pigeons or breaks the law. So, why should I applaud eco-terrorists and criminals who make false accusations ? It's like saying well yes, al-Qaeda has broken the law, and they are criminals and terrorists, but they have made a couple valid points !! 
Let's overlook their terror and meditate on some of their points ????

They are liars and law breakers, and if one is going to suggest that we look in the mirror, I am thinking you must have a different reflection in your mirror. And if are suggesting that these Eco-terrorists have some valid points, then I would question if those fanciers in the Bronx and the AU are in fact your brothers and sisters.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Jay3 said:


> Many many of them _do_ die. Yes, they are birds. They are birds that have been raised in a loft for generations, and having their food and water brought to them daily. A strong homing ability and speed may have been bred into them.* But knowing how to survive in the wild has been bred out. T*hat would be like taking a rich kid, dropping him off on the streets of New York, and expecting that he would be street smart enough to get by. Maybe join a gang (_flock_), and fit right in, and be just fine. If this were the case, then with all the birds that are lost during training and racing, 3/4 of the feral flocks would be wearing bands, and this just isn't so. You may see some out there, but not nearly as many as are lost. I know it makes people who lose them feel better believing this, but they are fooling themselves. *Some do make it, but most do not. *And the ones that do get to deal with predation and living in a hostile environment, where they are being poisoned, huddled together in the snow during winter, and scrounging around for food. Many will freeze and starve in cold areas. *Many will become sick with canker from the stress of such a life change, and will die of that.*


 You have no research or any data which would suggest that any of this is true. You are speculating by way of an opinion. Now, you are entitled to any opinion you want, but you have no facts to back up your assertions. All feral pigeon colonies are descended from pigeons which were imported into North America in beginning in 1606. So to say that our homing pigeons are unable to live free with the millions of of other pigeons is really just a bit silly IMHO.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I do, and I can dispute their so called "points".
> 
> You are of course entitled to your PETA supportive views, but your assuming that their statements are fact, when they are nothing more then pure fabrication. Far as I am concerned, there is nothing in the Bronx nor the AU Convention race that needs to be cleaned up.
> 
> ...


Am I reading this correctly? There is no gambling in pigeon racing? No one lethally culls there birds? Whether or not that is illegal is another question, but I think I'm reading that you are saying it never happens - which I really think you know better.


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't think anyone cares for my opinion on this topic


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

It's kind of funny how we draw these lines. One group claims a moral direction that is exclusive of any other moral direction. When this is done in the context of religion, we call it extremism, in politics it is fascism, etc. The reality is that none of these positions really matter beyond one point: is the position held respectful of other peoples right to determine their own view? 

PETA crosses the line with the "no way but our way and everyone else is an idiot" stance. As conservative christian I say the same about the christian groups that call every muslim, hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, etc. useless because they don't agree with "our view" of Godliness.

The point here is that unless a group respects the right of everyone to form an opinion, then the group itself is as bad as the very thing it is fighting against. In this regard PETA is one of the worst _organizations_ around. The people may mean well, but the *organization* is a problem. 

If folks want to effect change then they should work with a local branch of a national organization the _*cooperates*_ with diverse groups to ensure the welfare of animals. 

Let me address two points as a racer who "culls". 
* I "culled" two pair of breeders. They are now pumpers. This is non-lethal right? but they are culled from my team.

* The local medical college asks various animal organizations for "cast offs" to train future doctors. Notice "various animal organizations". This is lethal. But a doctor who may work on you next time you are in the hospital is learning how to perform various surgical tasks. This would be lethal, but human and beneficial to society. This is a form a culling that anyone who has ever seen a doctor has participated in. Even the members of PETA.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Good points, Jaysen.

One of PETA's favorite expressions is "uncompromised", and that about sums up the organization. There is just no room in their all-or-nothing world for compromise. Everyone is guilty except those who agree with their agenda.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Kastle Loft said:


> Am I reading this correctly? *There is no gambling in pigeon racing?* No one lethally culls there birds? Whether or not that is illegal is another question, but I think I'm reading that you are saying it never happens - which I really think you know better.


 If there is a way to bet on a pigeon race in the United States then I would be curious as to how one would do it. One can easily find a football game or some other sporting event to bet on, there are a few billion made by way of Las Vegas or maybe $50 Billion by way of a million other places right here in the USA. But for the life of me, if I think Mike Ganus has good birds, and I want to place a bet that it will win, place or show in the next race, there is no legal or extra legal way that I know of, or how or where it could be done. The so called "proof" of some kind of gambling going on at the "under cover" photo's or video, was nothing more then points system to calculate the best preforming birds in any given pool of birds. I could not have walked in there and placed a bet on some guys birds. So no, gambling like one finds at the horse track, dog track, casino, or off track betting parlor, or even a back room bookey, just does not exist. 

Even the One Loft events are more like a big Dog show. The owners and breeders share the expense of housing, feeding, training of the YB's and they also contribute funds to provide for the various prizes which are often trophies and such, and perhaps if their birds place high enough within the pool of birds in that race, an opportunity to share in the monetary prizes. Just like professional dog breeders, they rarely make money from the proposition, as the costs associated with the hobby, be it feed, medicine, vet bills, transportation, training, entry fees, expenses, rarely make money. The only real "gambling" which is done, is betting that this new bird purchase, will produce enough quality offspring to make it worthwhile, and other such "gambles" in life. To gamble like they may do in Taiwan, where millions might exchange hands in a single race, just is not possible in the USA. 

As for the other matter, there are parents which murder their children. Does that mean all parents have the potential to murder their children ? There may be as many as 1,000,000 pigeon fanciers around the world. Do some of them simply kill a pigeon they no longer want or like, just like we do with cats and dogs ? How can one say anything, with any degree of certainty, about such a large and diverse group ? Maybe there is some where in the world, a person who murders someone, and it is found out that they own pigeons. Does that mean we are hiding murderers within our organizations ? The latter is really not relevant in that man has used animals for his purposes since before time. Just this morning, I consumed some chicken eggs for breakfast, and I am sure PETA would take exception to this for any variety of reasons, and I don't really care. But, do people practice euthanasia on their pets, sometimes not always for the best reasons ? To even own a Pet, is not allowed in the brave New World envisioned by PETA, so I guess my response is, so what ? 

Shame on any of you who are pigeon fanciers, and you buy into this propaganda that these Eco-terrorists are putting out there. They are no friends of pigeons, or any other animal. It is a political agenda, based on fear and intimidation. It is about control and power. Any crumbs or tidbits of "injustice" they pretend to want to end, is only to enslave the gullible followers, like sheep led to the slaughter. 

I disagree with every so called point that PETA attempts to make. I can look at the mirror in the morning, and the guy I see looking back at me, owns a small colony of pigeons, and they fair far better then the feral colonies living in and around the near by fields. And I can honestly say that about every fancier that I know. They live longer, and can fly farther and faster, then any of their wild cousins. They live better then any King.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Horse Racing lives on,with NO Peta bothering the breeders etc...Why ?? To much money on the horse racing ownership etc...
Do horses get abused ?? Sure some do...Do they get Whipped in races?? Sure they do...Do the horses get culled if they are no good ?? Sure they do...Do people bet/wager big money on them to win ?? They sure do....Now,what`s the difference between horse racing,and pigeon racing ??? The answer is,way to much money behind the horses racing federation...PETA cannot fight against ALL THAT MONEY....Money always wins out in the long run....Alamo


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Where`s the video that was mentioned at the start of this thread ?? Am I in the video when they are releasing the birds ?? I am in one of the pictures at the start of this thread....Can I sue PETA for putting me on the world wide web,WITHOUT my CONSENT ?? Any lawyers here to help me hurt PETA`s bank book ??? Alamo


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

switchbackmat69 said:


> I don't think anyone cares for my opinion on this topic


Go ahead, you have as much right to your viewpoint as any of the rest of us.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> *You have no research or any data which would suggest that any of this is true. You are speculating by way of an opinion. Now, you are entitled to any opinion you want, but you have no facts to back up your assertions. *All feral pigeon colonies are descended from pigeons which were imported into North America in beginning in 1606. So to say that our homing pigeons are unable to live free with the millions of of other pigeons is really just a bit silly IMHO.



Is this not true of you also?


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Alamo said:


> Where`s the video that was mentioned at the start of this thread ?? Am I in the video when they are releasing the birds ?? I am in one of the pictures at the start of this thread....Can I sue PETA for putting me on the world wide web,WITHOUT my CONSENT ?? Any lawyers here to help me hurt PETA`s bank book ??? Alamo


You really couldn't sue PETA because they fuzzed out all the faces in the pictures/videos. You would really have no proof that that person is you. If you have proof then go for it. It really is your own desicion and I cannot change your mind. You do what you really are willing to do. If you think you have solid proof that that is you that give it a try. But in the photos and vids I can't tell a face from another.


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

anil_pigeon said:


> http://www.petakillsanimals.com/


I found that same site. It is a good one. It has proof of what they have said. Viginia vet department has a document that that site has and you can look at it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What has all this got to do with whether or not there is abuse in pigeon racing?


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## Jaysen (Jun 21, 2010)

Jay3,

I think it is the question of "credible source" (I forget the legal term). In essence once as source is shown to be unreliable, either through perjury, conflict of interest, or involved malfeasance, then the entirety of the testimony must be discarded. PETA clearly has a conflict if the site is accurate (I will not go so far as to say perjurous). 

The other view of this is the accountability standard. Basically you open yourself up to the same charge under which you prosecute others. Think Eliot Spitzer. By committing "lethal culls" at their centers either PETA needs to be held accountable or they must drop the accusation of others. 

As to your argument which is effectively "bad people do bad things", the same is true of PETA. You can extend it to driving a car. Or buying groceries. This argument is moot. The point is that a very broad and improper brush was used in a marketing campaign. 

Which is the real problem. Folks need to stop arguing at PETA's level. You want to change things then work with credible organizations to effect change. Set up a loft monitoring program with your club and the SPCA. Do that and you just derailed PETA. Out market them and we win. 

I go back to my earlier position that PETA is not a credible group based on their philosophy of "no other way but our way". This is a very dangerous position and has been ruled fairly unsupportable since the civil and woman's rights cases were ruled by the supreme court. 

Alamo, any public place has no basis for privacy. You would lose since you were neither named in the vid, nor identifiably accused (blurred face and not 'this guy kills birds'). This one was ruled by the US supreme court in 2010 I believe. 

And for the record I am not a lawyer. The law isn't that tough if you read a bit. So don't encourage your kids to read if you don't want them citing court cases at the dinner table. Parental unhappiness lurks there.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Too Bad for me...The guys who drive the birds down,and PAY ME for liberating the race,would be my proof...But,who needs all the agraviation,to say the least....PETA has no morals,when they think they are right....Alamo


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

We are ALL aware that there are bad people in the world of pigeons. And in all other animal related worlds. We can all agree that abuses do occur. We all know that there is a need for both animal rights and animal welfare groups to protect our animals from those abuses. 

What we don't need are people who preach one thing, and then allow or condone terrorism in the name of animal rights. If these groups would actually spend all the money they take in providing shelter, vet care, neutering services, and the other things needed to end the suffering, instead of financing protests, and threatening those that spend their life's working with animals, I think we would all be in agreement that these groups are wonderful.

It is their history of hit and run tactics that bother a lot of people. They write an exposé about pigeon racing, create a real furor, and then move on. Meanwhile, many people that truly care for their birds and are doing everything right, are left in their dust, having to explain themselves to family, neighbors, and to community leaders. Why do you think we have had so many threads about not being able to keep pigeons in many towns and city's, or have troubles with our neighbors. Look how they have divided this forum.

I just once would like to hear a story from PETA about the good in pigeon racing. About one of our members that is going to use pigeons to work with prisoners and at risk teens. A story about the members that give their time and energy to help injured or sick birds, people that share their knowledge to provide housing and aviary construction. Does PETA look into success storys like these, or does this great entity live by only doing negative stories that keeps PETA in the news. 

Yes there is a need to expose the negatives, but good, caring journalism needs to also show the positive. PETA has failed miserably in doing this. If you're going to expose the failures, you have to expose the winners. Any group that fails in this concept has not met the needs of all concerned. If PETA's attacks were not so one sided, we would not be having this discussion.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Very good point.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm going to start staying out of this thread, but I do have one question for Warren. I thought pooling was considered gambling? Putting down a dollar or two and whoever gets first place gets the money. Or doing "pick birds" where you try to guess which is your best bird and whoever's pick bird did the best, they get the money (which can either be donated from the club itself or gathered from the people who picked a bird).


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

(Maybe join a gang (flock), and fit right in, and be just fine. If this were the case, then with all the birds that are lost during training and racing, 3/4 of the feral flocks would be wearing bands, and this just isn't so.) posted by Jay3. 
THIS logic doesnt even make sense. Do you realize how many more tens of thousands of feral pigeons there are than homing pigeons. If all the homing pigeons would turn feral tommorrow there would still only be a small fraction of the feral population with bands on. That is why you dont see them,its not that they died because they cant make it it the wild.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> You have no research or any data which would suggest that any of this is true. You are speculating by way of an opinion. Now, you are entitled to any opinion you want, but you have no facts to back up your assertions. All feral pigeon colonies are descended from pigeons which were imported into North America in beginning in 1606. So to say that our homing pigeons are unable to live free with the millions of of other pigeons is really just a bit silly IMHO.


I agree none of what is said is factual but you can't tell me you honestly believe that out of all the birds liberated that none will die, Some will get lost at sea, some will not find a feral flock to "fit into". I agree the majority should do just fine but some will be lost in the process.

I personally have no issues with racing, I am setting up myself and have had two young birds not make it home from tosses. They had to cross a large body of water and I have been told this can lead them out to sea where they become tired and fall in.
I do think some clubs and areas do mistreat the though and maybe that needs to stop and they need to follow suit with the newer more compassionate method of pigeon racing.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> If there is a way to bet on a pigeon race in the United States then I would be curious as to how one would do it. One can easily find a football game or some other sporting event to bet on, there are a few billion made by way of Las Vegas or maybe $50 Billion by way of a million other places right here in the USA. But for the life of me, if I think Mike Ganus has good birds, and I want to place a bet that it will win, place or show in the next race, there is no legal or extra legal way that I know of, or how or where it could be done. The so called "proof" of some kind of gambling going on at the "under cover" photo's or video, was nothing more then points system to calculate the best preforming birds in any given pool of birds. I could not have walked in there and placed a bet on some guys birds. So no, gambling like one finds at the horse track, dog track, casino, or off track betting parlor, or even a back room bookey, just does not exist.
> 
> Even the One Loft events are more like a big Dog show. The owners and breeders share the expense of housing, feeding, training of the YB's and they also contribute funds to provide for the various prizes which are often trophies and such, and perhaps if their birds place high enough within the pool of birds in that race, an opportunity to share in the monetary prizes. Just like professional dog breeders, they rarely make money from the proposition, as the costs associated with the hobby, be it feed, medicine, vet bills, transportation, training, entry fees, expenses, rarely make money. The only real "gambling" which is done, is betting that this new bird purchase, will produce enough quality offspring to make it worthwhile, and other such "gambles" in life. To gamble like they may do in Taiwan, where millions might exchange hands in a single race, just is not possible in the USA.
> 
> ...


So just one more thing - You say that the ferals don't have as good of a life as your birds - What about the birds that are lost and end of living feral, Their quality of life drops due to a choice you made to release them and have them attempt to fly home. These birds live like kings sure, but for our benefit we release them from miles away and expose them to the possibility they may never find their Kingdom again.

How would the kings of the past felt if they got kicked out to live in the fields after a life of luxury.

The point I am making is regardless of what anyone says, crating birds up and making them fly miles home is not whats best for the birds. I again do not have a problem with it but to try and make out there is not some stress on the animal is just a little bit silly.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jaysen said:


> The other view of this is the accountability standard. Basically you open yourself up to the same charge under which you prosecute others. Think Eliot Spitzer. By committing "lethal culls" at their centers either PETA needs to be held accountable or they must drop the accusation of others.


Excellent point.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I agree none of what is said is factual but you can't tell me you honestly believe that out of all the birds liberated that none will die, Some will get lost at sea, some will not find a feral flock to "fit into". I agree the majority should do just fine but some will be lost in the process.
> 
> I personally have no issues with racing, I am setting up myself and have had two young birds not make it home from tosses. They had to cross a large body of water and I have been told this can lead them out to sea where they become tired and fall in.
> I do think some clubs and areas do mistreat the though and maybe that needs to stop and they need to follow suit with the newer more compassionate method of pigeon racing.


 The average life span of a feral pigeon is somewhere around four years. Roughly speaking, that is a mortality rate of around 25%. To me, what that means is that more pigeons will live every year which are housed in a loft and raced. Every single pigeon hatched this year will at some point die. That is a fact, so in order to save as many as possible, they should be housed in a loft and raced, as that has been shown to expand their life span. PETA's solution on the other hand, is to turn everyone of them loose into the wild, just as they have done with mink. So both PETA and some posters on here, for some reason are not in favor of expanding the life span of the pigeons they claim to be concerned about. Why ? Because some of them will return to the wild state and live out their lives as a normal feral would do. And some of these, like millions of ferals do every year, will die at some point. 

As far as your last statement that you think some clubs mistreat and need to follow more "compassionate" methods. I think the solution there is for you to come up with these methods, demonstrate that they work, and then publish the results and your methods. I think the methods already in practice are far more compassionate then what Mother Nature dishes out. With my methods, far fewer pigeons, certainly much less then 25% that Mother Nature kills off, will die from starvation and disease. Is the system perfect ? No, but then nothing is, those that sit back in the peanut gallery pointing out what they perceive as imperfect, yet they have no solutions, and are critical of a system which is far more compassionate then what nature itself is. What is it that will make these tree hugger PETA types happy ? No lofts, no pigeon fanciers, and all pigeons living under the strict rules of Mother Nature along with that high mortality 25% rate. Some pigeon lover's they turned out to be.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm going to start staying out of this thread, but I do have one question for Warren. I thought pooling was considered gambling? Putting down a dollar or two and whoever gets first place gets the money. Or doing "pick birds" where you try to guess which is your best bird and whoever's pick bird did the best, they get the money (which can either be donated from the club itself or gathered from the people who picked a bird).


 I might just try to do the same. As there are Pigeon Talk members who like PETA, do not feel that pigeons should be raced. I consider myself an animal and bird lover, but like anything else in life, there is extremism and zealots. I really am not comfortable with the extremes at either end, and I confess, I also consider myself a member of the vast majority of pigeon fanciers, who are racing enthusiasts. Much like Thoroughbred horse racing, the breed would not exist if it were not for racing. Can racing be dangerous for the horse and the rider ? Absolutely. However, without racing, there would exist no Thoroughbred. 

If I were to adopt the will of Eco-Terrorist types, there would be no racing. The modern day racing pigeon in a very short amount of time, would cease to exist as a breed. Eventually the type and form would also be lost, for certainly the Eco-Terrorism types, no longer want me to even house pigeons, as that is against their "rights". Soon, like the Passenger pigeon, it will be another breed gone extinct. Not as a result of being killed off by man with a gun, but from neglect and lack of homing skills. In time, all remaining 3000+ pigeon breeds will cease to exist, as the bird returns to the Rock dove form. 

I simply can not with good conscious, simply stand by and watch these Eco-Terrorist types, with all of their various fronts and animal friendly sounding names, as they attempt to exterminate this particular breed, by attacking the fanciers and his or her methods. When the intention is not the welfare of the animal but a political agenda for attacking pigeon fanciers, and other minority groups. 

In regard to your pooling question. If a breeder pays an entry fee to enter a particular dog show, and upon winning is awarded some prizes such as a trophy and some cash, is that "gambling" that your dog will win ? So are all dog fanciers who enter dog shows where they can win prizes, are they gamblers ? I don't think so. Neither is it with a pigeon event, be it a show or a race. Now if you went to the dog show, and I yelled I bet you $5 that the little white dog will win, and I want 2-1 odds, then yes, that would be gambling. But, the owner and breeder paying an entry fee to cover costs and provide some prizes for the owners, for the owners, then no it is not. Same with horses by the way. If owner enters his horse in a horse race, that is not gambling. If he goes up into the stands and makes a wager, then that is a whole different story. Playing church bingo is gambling, entering a bird into a pool race is not. There have been some charity events, where money was being raised for some good local cause, like a kid with cancer or something. And $5 chance tickets were sold with the bird's band number as there was only one ticket for each band number. Even though it was thought to be a very small game of chance, the proper legal documents were filled out and the fees to the government were collected. So, is this an example of a form of gambling, yes. But, it was all very legal and above board. Maybe even more fun then church bingo. 

What we have here with PETA, is a well funded multi-million dollar scheme to enrich a small few as "administrative" salaries, and then some is funneled into even more extremist groups. With less then 1% of the funds for any real animal welfare programs, the rest is geared towards fund raising and to bring in even more funds for the war for "animal rights". Attempting to smear the intended target, they attempt to garner popular support for their "cause". They may also be anarchists or Marxists, it's all so very hard to tell at times. They attempt to paint us as shady characters who gamble and pull heads off of birds who look at them wrong. The meaner, the badder, the worst possible perception they can manufacture the better. Tobacco chewing, cussing, drinking, mean spirited and vile. Oh, and we all still think the earth is flat. 

You who don't even race, but perhaps simply keep some pigeons for the sheer joy and fun of it. What you must understand is, if they are successful in destroying the sport of racing, then your right or ability to simply keep some pigeons will also be endangered. Most importantly, far more is at stake here then the hobby of pigeon keeping. The status of our **** sapiens species is at stake. 

I for one, will continue to have dominion over the birds of the air, as this is my destiny, as it is my God given right.


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