# Gravel for Moody - possibilities?



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Hi. Moody needs larger gravel for grit, but as it's not landscaping season, it's hard to find. I was wondering offhand if it would be possible to use AQUARIUM rocks for her grit. The uncoated kind, I guess. But they might be painted. But it might, again, be possible to find unpainted ones, they have to be safe for fish, afterall. Anyway... I was wondering if that would be a possibility, as it would be a lot easier to find.

Thanks,
Vasp & Moody


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Have you tried to find some smallish pea gravel at a local home improvement store? I saw bags of it at the local Home Depot just a few days ago.

I don't know about the aquarium gravel/substrate, but there sure are a lot of different kinds available: http://www.aquariumguys.com/aquarium-gravel.html
I would think that a natural product with no additives would be OK.

Or perhaps their is a rock quarry in your area where you could get what you need ??

Terry


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## philodice (Sep 30, 2007)

How big is this bird? lol. Sounds huge...needs a whole quarry.
Super pigeon.
I think chicken grit would do it.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah, chicken grit would do it, but none of our feed stores sell chicken grit, just oyster shell. We have oyster shell, but apparently that's not what she needs.

Terry - we went to the Home Depot and there was none. Just sand. It's winter here, -30 below and with 3 feet of snow. I don't think home improvement, especially landscaping, is all the rage at this time of the year, unfortunately!

Tomorrow, I'm going to go to an aquarium store and look for some all-natural gravel. I've definitely seen it before. I know that some fish enthusiasts will only use all-natural gravel, just to be safe.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

What's the latest on her other problem?

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah, glad you asked! Well, we have kept treating her vent sore and it's getting a lot better. As she isn't ripping off the scab, there is no blood in the poop and no bleeding. The sore was the only cause for blood in her poop. I also realized that the Metronidazole helped a lot while she was on it. There was no smell and her diarrhea began to lessen dramatically. But, when she started to bleed again, I thought it wasn't doing its job and wasn't what she needed. But I realized that the blood came and went because some days, she'd rip off the entire scab and some days, just a bit of it. Some days, also, she wouldn't rip it off at all.

So I talked to my vet and we are putting her back on Metronidazole because her symptoms line up with Giardia, still, and it improved her a lot the last time she was on it. Apparently protozoa are difficult to kill off entirely and need quite a few re-doses.

BUT, I still don't know about the 250mg a day thing. She gave me 14 days of it, but somehow, I think a higher dose for a shorter amount of time would be better. I read somewhere (forget the exact source) that a higher dose for a length of 7-10 days, repeat in 10 days, is best. I was thinking that might be why we didn't have much success last time.

I'm going to call an avian specialist in the next big city over and ask her if she knows anything about the dosage of Metronidazole for Giardia for geese. She's really great and has worked with a lot of birds, she's also on the AAV look-up (http://aav.org/vet-lookup/). If you look up her name, also, you can see that she's worked with a lot of birds.

Anyway... I hope that yields some results. You wouldn't happen to know about the dosage in geese, would you?

We tried ordering from Foy's but our credit card was declined; it's a loadable one, so that may be the cause. Also... We think Metronidazole might be what she needs as it did so much good last time.

By the way, do you think it's possible for Giardia to be passed on to the baby through the egg shell? She is from a huge factory farm of over 4,000 ducks and geese and there was a bit of foul-smelling poop on her egg that we didn't wash off, we figured washing was a bad thing so we didn't. Is it possible that she got it from her egg? She has not been into anything THAT bad but has been sick since she was VERY young...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I didn't see a specific entry for geese (anseriformes). Pigeons get the highest per kilogram of bird. You'd be better to dose more often in that you don't have to give as much drug to maintain the plasma concentration above the MIC (Minimum Inhibitory Concentration). When you're getting into that large of an animal, drug costs start getting significant. Anyhow, there are several protocols listed anywhere from 10-30 to 25-50 mg/kg, PO, BID. If Metronidazole doesn't clear it then you might need to go to one of the other ones.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Should I just try the 250mg/day then? I'll call the vet and ask anyway, just to see if she has any information. I assume my vet would have consulted some avian vets before giving me this dose. She tends to ask them for back-up a lot, and has done so with Moody's situation. But, the vets can't say more than what you all have suggested here. If the Metronidazole doesn't work, we might either try Nystatin or Tetracycline first. Would a human probiotic with b. bifidum and acidophilus be good enough to use after using an antibiotic? The human dose is 2-3 pills a day, what dose would we give Moody? And how long after antibiotics? Just in case we have to resort to them.

So do you think she could have gotten whatever she has from her egg?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Not a protozoal infection, no. That'd have to come from infested water. I don't know much about geese and how they feed their young, though.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh, I hatched Moody myself. There's a possibility that she got it from water in the backyard. But I would have to say that she had diarrhea even before she was let outside. Way before she was fledged. It just got worse and worse, and so did the smell. Anyway... If the Metronidazole doesn't clear it up after the 14 days or whatever we do, I'll try the Tetracycline I think. So would the probiotic with b. bifidum and acidophilus be good enough for her? The human dosage is 2-3 pills per day, what would it be for her, you think?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, at 14 lbs, you're looking at 6.35 kilograms.

So, for the middle (20) of the 10-30 mg/kg, PO, BID, you'd end up with 127 milligrams twice daily. Given the 250 milligram pill that you're using, you'd keep more in the bird by giving her half of the pill in the morning and the other half in the evening. 

If you were to go with one of the higher dosages, like 20-50 mg/kg, PO, BID, you'd be looking at the same thing as above on the lowest dose and more like a full 250 milligram pill in the morning and one in the evening on the higher end of that dosing range. If memory serves, Giardia is a tougher one to clear than Trichomoniasis (canker).

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Should I be giving her two pills a day, then? One in the morning and one at night? Before, I would give her one at night.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd tend towards avian probiotics for birds. Lady Tarheel swears by Benebac and I don't know the dosage for that stuff, especially for geese.

Now, understand that Tetracyclines and Nystatin do completely different things than a Nitroimidazole like Metronidazole. I hate shooting blind like that. That's what lab tests are for.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, I hate shooting in the dark, too. Not sure if we can get anything tested though. Don't know how to use a microscope, quite frankly, and they really don't have them around here. Tetracycline is a board-spectrum antibiotic and would probably destroy any bacterial infection in her system. Nystatin would target any fungal infections. I would bet that if she doesn't have Giardia, it's bacterial for sure. She could probably get that through her egg, could she not?

I don't know if we can get Benebac around here. I wanted to take a look at PetSmart, but they don't stock it here. I even asked them to have some Mazuri waterfowl diet shipped in, but no can do. It's really troublesome having an exotic-type pet around here with so little resources. I was going to buy a pigeon probiotic on Foy's Pigeon Supply, but I'd have to do a money order. Not sure if I like that idea.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Gotta' start up the other computer...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When I need to give a bird probiotics, I usually just give them a Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula meal. There's plenty in there.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I have been reading about a lot of cases where Giardiasis is complicated by vitamin malabsorption and some other stuff. It kinda' looks like it's pretty common for them to treat such birds with Selenium, Vitamin E and the anti-protozoal. There are a few of those that have been used including Metronidazole, Dimetridazole, Ipronidazole and I'm sure the newer ones as well. Sores like the one you're talking about are usually washed with a dilute chlorhexidine solution.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Uhhh... What exactly is chlorhexidine? Where can I get it?

As for the handfeeding thing... I really don't know how I'd go about giving that to Moody! Geese are not fed by their parents to begin with. She really hates her beak being handled. And unlike pigeons, she has a VERY strong jaw!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I can imagine.

Chlorhexidine is a common antiseptic. Novalsan is one trade name for it. You can probably get it at any drugstore.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Sounds good. I'll look for it tomorrow.

Also, I'm going to look for some garlic oil capsules. Heard those are great for birds when it comes to pretty much any problem including fungal infections, bacterial infections, even parasites, so I'm going to start giving her a pill a day. I can stuff it in a piece of apple and she'll eat it right away. She even ate a pill once, right from my hands. It was really strange.

Anyway, thanks. BUT should I give 2 pills of 250mg of metronidazole a day?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The first step to increasing the dosage is to split the pill in half and give it twice daily. I have no experience with geese. If you've got plenty of the medicine then you can probably go with the higher dosage. I'd rather that you got instructions from someone with experience with geese.

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I'll split the pill in half and give it twice daily, I think, until I get some sort of instruction from another person. I really don't know who I can talk to, but I think I have an idea. The waterfowl genetic expert/breeder, who my friend is probably getting one of his special mini geese from. I bet he'd know.

I'll consult him.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The reason for giving the pill that way is due to the nature of drugs as it pertains to the half-life in the system. The quantity of drug circulating in the system usually follows an exponential decrease, but it is a fractional exponential. In that, it's similar to radioactive decay. A half-life is generally a number like "3.3 hours" or something like that. It's different for different drugs in different species. The closest I've been able to find for Metronidazole would be that very number. Anyhow, given the exact same total dose for a 24 hour period, the more divisions there are end up with the maintenance of the highest plasma concentration. If a person wants easier dosing by throwing more down the gullet but only once per day, you have to have a higher dose in that 24 hour period. So, you can get the same effect with more convenience by the higher dose once per day, but be more economical with the drug going with the more frequent dosings.

Pigeons are so small that you're rarely dealing with a lot of drug. With a 14 pound goose or a 1,000 pound horse, you're sometimes getting into real money for a course of antibiotics. So, for a pigeon it's simpler to give the big whopping dose once a day for convenience' sake while with your goose it'd be better to go this other way.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ducks and geese get dosed at the higher end like most birds. If Moody needs a whole 250 mg tab twice daily, then that's what I would give. Haven't had a chance to do the math on the weight and dose, but there's no point in sort of half a**ing the dose. The whole problem with Moody is that we still aren't really sure what we're trying to treat. 

Edit: OK .. just saw the math .. so 1/2 tab of 250 mg morning and night would be right.

JMO ..

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I know. I don't know how much of the drug she's got. Here's more on half-lives and the governing principle:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=255761

Pidgey


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I've got 14 pills. It cost about 16 dollars. I can afford more if necessary, easily. It's pretty darn cheap, if you ask me, not pricey at all. The recommended course for Metronidazole for Giardia is 7-10 days. I could even do 2 pills a day, once morning and once night, if necessary for 7 days. If a repeat is necessary, I can easily afford it.


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