# 8 1/2 yrs old



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Hi, my oldest pigeon in the coup, Spot (she's white with brown and black spots and a black tail), who is about 8.5 years old stopped being able to fly up to the coup about a week ago. She looked sick with crust around her eyes and could barely open one, so I treated her with Dacoxine 4 in 1 tablets for 5 days. Her eys are now normal and she acts fine except she is still unable to fly and occasionally 'trips' when she's walking. 

I have her in a smaller cage as some of the younger birds wouldn't leave her alone in the coup. She appears to have a healthy appetite and is pooping normally. She has lost some weight and chest muscle. I did notice that she stopped nesting earlier this year, perhaps even late last year.

I've been trying to let her get a little exercise for her wings a few times a day (She flaps them just fine). 

My pigeons fly free during the day and we do on occasion get feral pigeons hanging out in the coup.

Is this just a product of old age or should I try treating her with another medication?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, the problem with 4-In-1s', is that while better than nothing, if you have a sick bird, they try and do too many things at once and in doing so, IMO, sometimes may come up short as a treatment for certain infections. A healthy 8 1/2 year old bird should be having no problems flying, so whatever is going on with her, it is not old age, but something else.

What sometimes can happen with antibiotics is that the bacteria causing the infection may have an intermediate response to the drug being used, meaning that the antibiotic had some effect but either was not the right antibiotic or was not able to safely achieve high enough levels in the blood to clear the infection, which may be the case with Spot.

If this bird were under my care I would try another medication, I would suggest Trimethoprim/Sulfa, as this antibiotic will treat for a few infections that can cause a bird to be grounded, the dose would be 50mg/kg, q12h. I would also like to see if you could have a vet do a fecal exam of Spot's droppings for parasites, as she may have a few issues going on at once.

It might be good if you could post up a photo of her, and her fresh droppings, for us to have a look at.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I don't have any Sulfa on hand at the moment, but I will go check the farm supply store when it opens in the morning. I just cleaned out the cage (I had a towel on the bottom) before I read your post and that's already in the wash. I'll post a picture of her droppings in the morning.

Here are some pictures of her I just took (She protested my waking her up to take these):


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, if it's a feed and farm supply store, you will be most likely not be able to find Trimethoprim/Sulfa there, but there is a good chance you will be able to find a few Sulfa based meds, one called Sulmet and the other Albon, both similar, either would be OK. You could start Spot on this medicine and then order in some Trimethoprim/Sulfa from on-line and switch meds when they arrive. Thanks for the photos and when you get a chance, do post up a photo of her fresh droppings as well.

Any chance on the fecal exam?... and you may want to pick up a med at the supply store called Wazine (Piperazine). This medicine is a de-wormer and if she has never been de-wormed and has access to bare soil/earth or areas other birds, include wild ones in this, have access to, it might be something to consider doing. The fecal float while helpful, but they are not always 100% conclusive in diagnosing parasites, meaning that the fecal float could come back negative, but a bird could still have a worm infection, so there are times when symptoms warrant it, that de-worming is done and we wait and see if a bird expels any worms.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

She made a mess with her seeds last this morning, but I tried to clear them away from the droppings. Here's the picture of her droppings:


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, her droppings, while not ideal, look a good deal better than I thought they were going to, which is good. How did you make out with the meds and a vet for a fecal exam?

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I've got the wazine and they didn't have those three, but they had Sulfadimethoxine soluble powder. Will that work until I can get the Sulfa?

What ratio of Wazine should I put?

Here are the other medicines I have in my cupboard:
- Dacoxine 4 in 1
- Ornacyn Plus
- Spartrix
- Furaltadone (I treated my water supply for my coup with this recently)


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I treated her water with the Sulfadimethoxine at 2.14 grams per 1 gallon (or 107 grams per 50 gallons).

The wazine does have a warning against giving to underweight/weak birds . . . should I wait to see if the other medication helps? 

I want to treat the rest of my coup with the Wazine as well. I do have three babies still in the nest at the moment (They still have some yellow fuzz), should I wait till they are older?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, Sulfadimethoxine you picked up is a correct med, it's a close relative of the Sulmet I mentioned (Sulfamethazine) and is actually the active drug in the second sulfa med I mention Albon, so essentially what you are treating with is the same thing as Albon.

Yes, please hold off on any de-worming for a bit, to see how she respond in the next few days to being on the sulfa med. Keep a close eye for any changes, either way, and please keep us updated and if you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask.

What is the strength of the Wazine? It might be good to treat the rest of your birds, as if there are any worms produced, it might be indicative to what part of Spot's problems may be.

Good luck,

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

It is Wazine 17. I believe it is the same one as: http://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog/Chicken-Health/Wazine-17-8-oz-p528.aspx

Is it a good idea to use while I have young still in the nest? If not I can catch a couple birds and treat them separatly with it.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The dosing for Wazine 17 is 2 tablespoon to a gallon of water, using this water as the only source of water for 2 days and repeat in 12-14 days.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/579.html .

The individual dosing suggested for Piperazine (Wazine) in pigeons is 35mg/kg PO q24h x 2days, r12-14d. So this means for example, that a pigeon weighing 350g will get 12.25mg of Piperazine, once daily (at about the same time of day) for 2 straight days and then the same repeated in 12-14 days. We know the Wazine 17 you have has 170mg/mL, so the example pigeon mentioned before would get 0.77cc (12.24mg) of the Wazine 17, straight from the bottle. 

To help make things a bit easier for you, you might want to do this, and you will need a 1cc/mL syringe to do this (the kind without a needle attached). I would shake the Wazine 17 bottle well and draw out 1cc of the Wazine 17 and dispense this into a small container, like a shot glass, rinse the syringe well and draw in 1cc of plain water and this to the Wazine 17 in the shot glass, and do this twice (so 2mL), so you will now have a total of 3mL. Mix this well and the Wazine you have now will be 1/3 as strong as before making it easier for you to measure out the small doses needed for an individual bird (56.7mg/mL).

So going back to the example pigeon above, that weighed 350g, of this diluted Wazine 17 this bird would get about 0.22cc (12.32mg), for reference this is a hair above 4 drops worth.

Water dosing becomes more problematic if you have birds that are tending to squabs, it might just be best, if you don't have a tremendous amount of birds, and you know your birds well, to individual dose in groups of 6-8 over the next few days, starting with ones without obligation to any babies. You could dose the first group wait 2 days and see if you see any worms in the droppings and dose the next set, and so on. For the birds with squabs that may need dosed, if the parents are dosed at 10-11pm at night (lights on dose them, lights out) this will greatly reduce the chance of any babies getting some of the med, as it will be well into their system by the morning.

If you have any questions, as the numbers and math above can be a little hard if you are not used to dealing with numbers everyday, just ask and I'll explain things better if needed, I'll also help you with dosing or confirm yours for you if needed.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Thank you! I'll let you know if I have any questions about the measurements. Some of my birds will let me do this, while others probably won't. I have around 30 adult birds that were born here/were brought home as mates from a feral flock about a quarter to half mile away. 25 I know by name and the rest I know by pairing or sight. Several more are feral "interloppers" who came into the coup and my father clipped their wings and uses them and several homers (as missed flyers) for training his labradors. We also get ferals, mourning doves, and Eurasian Collared-Doves (some of which come daily/live a few houses down) who use the outdoor bird baths I set up or in the case of the pigeons pilfer seed.

I can probably dose at least 12-15 of the birds individually, including the parents and the clipped ferals. The rest are more wary of humans. I'll start with a few that are most used to me and see what the results are with the droppings.

If I do dose some individually, would it be all right to dose the rest of the birds through the water supply once the babies have started to move around the coup? Or should I just wait to dose them all at the same time?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

If it were me, I would dose a few groups, see if they passed any worms and make decisions based on this, of how urgent the need was to get everyone done. That being said, with the way you have described things, the number of birds and with them intermixing with ferals to some extent, you might want think about putting together a schedule, at least for worming, that will treat your birds a few times of the year, while keeping an eye out for individuals who may need de-worming, based on symptoms. The Wazine you picked up is not a bad anthelmintic (de-wormer), but it really is only good for round worms, although they are most common worms pigeons do get. 

With the amount of birds you have you, need to give thought to putting together a medicine chest that has a few de-wormers in it with a broader spectrum of worms it will treat, I would suggest Moxidectin-Plus, I sometimes alternate de-wormers using Pyrantel Pamoate (broader than Wazine, but not as broad as the Moxidectin-Plus). I would also broaden your medicine cabinet with a few more meds that will take the place of having to rely on a 4-in-1 product, I would suggest Trimethoprim-Sulfa (Bird-Sulfa), Metronidazole (Fish-Zole) and Doxycycline (Bird-Biotic) and it doesn't hurt to have a penicillin based medicine around, so you could also add in Amoxicillin (Fish-Mox). All these meds, and more, including the Pyrantel Pamoate, are available at the link below (but not the Moxidectin-Plus, the second link carries it):

http://www.revivalanimal.com/Fish-and-Bird-Antibiotics.html
http://www.siegelpigeons.com

You should keep some Baytril on hand as well:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Thank you! I'm looking into getting them. Spot is doing a bit better, she's not falling over when she's walking around on the ground and actually flys a little rather than just flutter to the ground. I started a couple birds on the worming medication, what should I look for in their poop?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> Thank you! I'm looking into getting them. Spot is doing a bit better, she's not falling over when she's walking around on the ground and actually flys a little rather than just flutter to the ground. I started a couple birds on the worming medication, what should I look for in their poop?


Liz, here are a couple of examples below of what you are looking for in their droppings. There is an example of a single worm and of multiple (they all cam from the same bird). If you are not looking at the droppings when really fresh, the worms can desiccate pretty quickly, and then they can look more like dried thread, so best keep an eye on their fresh droppings, as this will make it easier for you in seeing something, if there is something to be seen.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483647&postcount=38
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=483826&postcount=60

Karyn


----------



## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

*Thats one beautiful bird you have there. Good Luck!*


LizG said:


> I don't have any Sulfa on hand at the moment, but I will go check the farm supply store when it opens in the morning. I just cleaned out the cage (I had a towel on the bottom) before I read your post and that's already in the wash. I'll post a picture of her droppings in the morning.
> 
> Here are some pictures of her I just took (She protested my waking her up to take these):


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

It looks like Spot does need to be dewormed. She still can't really fly (though she isn't flopping over at all when walking/running from me when I let her out to clean her cage). I'm worried that her problem might be due mostly to the worms . . . how would you suggest getting her back up to a good weight in order to deworm her as Wazine says not go give to weak birds? Or should I treat her with it now?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, has she held her small improvements and seems stable for the moment? What's her weight, can you post up a photo of her fresh droppings, how is she doing eating and drinking wise, is there a vet in your area that can do a fecal test, doesn't even have to do many birds, the same parasites are found in dogs and cats, so would readily identifiable if they are there. With fecals, a negative test does not mean negative with certainty, but a positive test, done by someone who knows their stuff, would be a certainty. I wouldn't mind seeing if we could diagnose a worm infection before an attempt was made to de-worm her in her current state to be cautious.

Also, have you given any consideration to ordering in some of the meds I suggested a few days back, as while the medicine she is on is good one, it would not be my first choice if were possible to chose from a few others. I always worry with grounded hens about reproductive issues and while this may not be necessarily what we are dealing with here, the use of Trimethoprim/Sulfa I suggested earlier, sometimes in combination with Metronidazole, helps in that they will cover for a number of infections and are drugs of choice for reproductive issues.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I ordered the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and it should be here any time. For the rest I need to wait for my paycheck to get here (which *should* be any time as well).

Spot is 8.2 oz or 232.466 grams

I believe she's eating (although she throws her seeds all over and has been being picky about the types she takes . . . usually the smaller seeds are what has disapeared) and drinking.

I'll get a picture of some fresh dropings and get back to you shortly. When I cleaned her cage this morning the droppings looked about the same, with a bit more white in them.

She isn't visually acting sick and still flaps her wings and tries to fly away from me.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, glad to hear the Trimethoprim/Sulfa should be there shortly. Now that you have posted a weight for her I have a concern about this weight, 232 grams. First, how accurate do you think your scale is, as I am feeling a bit more anxious now, knowing this weight. I know there are some smaller breeds that can weigh in less than what I consider pretty standard weights for a healthy pigeon, say 320-420g mostly, for the kinds many of us keep. How does she feel in your hands, not much mass to her?... keel bone feel sharp (not much in the breast area)? Not much good myself at identifying breeds, maybe someone can chime in on what they think her breed is and what a hen normally weighs in around.

We really need to pay attention now to just how much food she is getting into her a day, a big part of this will be watching what comes out the back end, I have had a sick bird go down to this kind of weight and they lost the ability to really fly with the loss of muscle mass. We may have to consider supplementing her with some hand feeding. You really need to get up some photos ASAP of her droppings, any current ones, and then again in the morning to see what see has produced overnight.

Also, if you are near a large city many tropical fish stores carry brand of Metronidazole by Seachem called Metroplex, it will work, and it's pretty cheap.

http://www.shopping.com/Seachem-Laboratories-Seachem-Metronidazole-5-Gram/info?sb=1

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

She doesn't have much mass to her at all around the keel. I'll go clear out her cage of seeds and take a fixed measurement of how much I put in.

I called the local petco and the local fish/pet store, but neither has Metronidazole in it's pure form. The Petco said they have Jungle Parasite Clear that the cashier believed has it in it. 

I did call a specialty store a little over an hour away and they said they carry it, but they don't have any in at the moment and aren't sure when they'll be getting it in again.

I can order it off of Amazon a gift card I have, though.

I am loading a recent poop picture and will post it in a few minutes.


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Edit: I've ordered the Metronidazole. When it gets here what dosing should I use?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, the dropping has a mucusy look to it that is sometimes indicative of GI issues, so I think changing to the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, as we are going to do will be the thing to do, on a positive note they urate part looks quite white, which is good, because when they become tinted, it be indicative of a few types of infections. When the Metronidazole comes I will help you mix and prepare it, the same with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, as they both will have to be made into a suspension to dose, you will also need a 1cc syringe (the kind without an attached needle). I want you to remove, for now, any of the largest food items in her mix like corn and whole peas, as when the have GI issues this part of what I think is best to do.

What you can do is increase the things she likes in her mix, so if she likes safflower seeds add more of those and if she likes raw, sunflower hearts, add those as well. Some birds like peanuts as well, so you can give her some raw Spanish peanuts, chopped up for easy digestion. All of these will help put some weight on her. Also, I wouldn't mind you selecting a time in the morning and weighing her each day at that time to monitor her weight for the next few weeks. As when like this, we need to now on a daily basis what their weight is, and where they are heading with it.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I've got a pitcher of pigeon feed in front of me, picking out the smaller seeds (including the ones I've seen her pick all of to eat first). I did hand feed her about 15 seeds this afternoon as her crop felt rather empty. She wasn't too happy with the process, but I thought i'd start getting her used to it and didn't think it'd hurt.

Other than making sure she has small and chopped up seeds and such, is there anything else I can do to make it more digestable for her? Soak it in water or something? I've never had to hand feed an adult (I have supplemented feedings for baby pigeons and hand fed baby mourning doves, but they decided themselves rather suddenly when they were only going to eat seed).

I'll weigh her in the mornings when I open the main coup, around seven pst.

I do have a syringe I can use.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can feed her frozen peas that have been defrosted and warmed in warm water. Don't use a microwave, as you will get hot spots in the middle of the peas. This can burn her crop. Hold her on your lap, and against your body. Open her beak and pop in a pea, then push it to the back of her throat and release her beak so she can swallow. Do this until her crop feels squishy and maybe 2/3 full. If she were not eating other foods, it would take about 50 peas for a meal. You would do this a couple of times a day, but only after her crop empties.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, until we get a better idea of what her issues are I would be careful about give too much food at once that is large, she is holding her own and we don't want to do anything that will impact on this. Do you have any hand-feeding formula around like Kaytee?

Karyn


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well I thought that defrosted peas were better than seed, and they aren't large. They are very soft. They squish up and digest pretty easily.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Depending on the brand, peas are not always that squishy, when you get into adding 50 of these down into a bird who we know is ill, we don't know why, who has a dropping that shows to me there may be GI issues present, I tend to err on the side of caution, because we don't know with certainty what the result will be of feeding a fair amount of large food will be. We know she is managing to process seeds, and adding the peas very well may not be an issue, but because she is at 232 grams there is not a lot of reserves for her to fall back on for any kind of GI slow down, so that's why I am suggesting caution.

Karyn


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I can understand that. Just think defrosted peas are easier to digest than seed. That's all I was saying.


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I don't have any Kaytee at the moment, but there are a couple places in town I can get it from.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, pick Spot up a small bag and let me know when you have it and I'll give some instructions.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I picked a container of Kaytee up at Petco. I also hand fed her another 20 seeds and some water this morning as I wasn't sure if she drank anything from yesterday evening to today.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> I picked a container of Kaytee up at Petco. I also hand fed her another 20 seeds and some water this morning as I wasn't sure if she drank anything from yesterday evening to today.


Liz, you will need a set of measuring spoons for baking to help make this accurate. I want you get your measuring spoons measure out 2 tablespoons of the Kaytee (scoop in and then sweep across with a knife to level), add this to a small bowl. To this add 1 teaspoon of fresh Olive oil, you can really use a few oils, such as peanut, corn or safflower, but I prefer olive. Use a small spoon to stir this in well, to all the Kaytee is moist looking with the oil. Let rest a minute, and then to this add I tablespoon of hot water and bring this all together into a "dough" using the small spoon. You can now roll very small balls of this, about the size of a pea, and "pop" these down her like in the clip below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

It's important that you mix it as I laid out, oil before for the water, the reason is by adding the oil first the Kaytee absorbs this making less room in the plant cellular space to absorb water later, making the balls able to quickly break up easier in the crop, if done the other way, the Kaytee absorbs the water and then less oil making them harder to break up in the crop.

I want you to "pop" 5 balls 3 times over the course of the next day then go to 4 times the next day. It's important that she drink after popping the balls so see if you can guide her beak into water. If she does not drink don't worry as the balls will break down when she does feel to drink. Let see how she does with this over the next few days. If you get 20 of these balls a day into her, it will be a nice boost to her daily calorie intake and if things go well, we can take this up some.

You can divide the mix into 4 and keep one out(keeping in the refrigerator as you use it through the day) and use plastic wrap to freeze the other three. Take one out the night before to use the next day, you can give the mix a very quick zap with the micro to warm up a bit, slightly warm or room temp is fine. Now worries about hot spots as you hand roll the balls it will relive this worry.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I was in the same room with her this afternoon . . . and in a time period of about 6 hours she pecked at her seeds for the last fifteen minutes, just before I gave her the formula in pea sized balls as directed. I hadn't seen her drink so I also gave her some water afterwards to make sure she did.

About how long should I wait between giving her the formula again?


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> I was in the same room with her this afternoon . . . and in a time period of about 6 hours she pecked at her seeds for the last fifteen minutes, just before I gave her the formula in pea sized balls as directed. I hadn't seen her drink so I also gave her some water afterwards to make sure she did.
> 
> About how long should I wait between giving her the formula again?


We want to ease up on this with her, so 5 balls three times a day, would mean every 5-6 hours. So say tomorrow at 8am, 2pm and then 8pm. Then go to 4 times a day on Monday, 8am, 12pm, 4pm, and 8pm, these are just a guideline and you do have to hit the times right on the nose, just do the best you can, within your own schedule. Don't forget to weight her each day before doing anything in the morning and record. Glad to hear she is still interested in food, we are just gently supplementing her right now to try and slowly get some weight back on her, even if it takes a few months. We can make adjustments, if needed, depending on what the scale is saying.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Spot is just over 8.0 ounces this morning, almost the same as yesterday when I weighed her at the same time  but she hadn't had anything to eat yet when I weighed her this morning. I've since given her seed and fed her formula balls and made sure that she got some water after the formula as well.

She's still alert and she fought me about staying on the scale and about being hand fed this morning (I've been wrapping her in a towel to do that and she doesn't appreciate it). Her poops still look the same.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, the idea is to stabilize her for now, and not try and rush her. It may not seem like much, but by getting 20-25 of these balls a day into her they will slowly add the weight back on her (in a few days we will go to 6 balls, 4 times a day). I think once we get her on both the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Metronidazole we think we may see an improvement in her droppings, and I am hoping they will fix what is ailing her, I hope they come soon.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Spot was 8.25 ounces or 233.833 g this morning before I provided seed/fed her the formula balls. She did have water in her cage so I'm thinking she had gotten a drink before hand.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> Spot was 8.25 ounces or 233.833 g this morning before I provided seed/fed her the formula balls. She did have water in her cage so I'm thinking she had gotten a drink before hand.


Sounds like she is holding her own, like I mentioned if you see a particular seed she is fond of provide a little more of them into the mix if you can. Let me know when the meds come in.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

She's maintained 8.25 ounces the last couple days, but she didn't seem to be pecking at seed. Today, however, she's been pecking in her seed dish on and off all day.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for the update, as long as she is not losing ground while we wait on the meds, I guess we can't complain, any word on them? Tomorrow, you can take it up to 6 balls 4 times a day.

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

The medicine just came in this afternoon , well the Sulfa, the other the shipping site says will be here tomorrow.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Liz, we should get Spot started on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa without wait for the Metronidazole. Was it the Bird-Sulfa by Thomas Labs? Need to know what brand, so I can give you some instructions for mixing and dosing it. Do you have a 1cc syringe?

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Yes it's the Bird Sulfa from Thomas Labratories. It's the 60 tablet container

Sulfamethoxazole . . . 400 mg
trimethoprim . . . 80 mg

The Metronidazole is 250 mg each, 100 tablet container from Thomas Labratories


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> Yes it's the Bird Sulfa from Thomas Labratories. It's the 60 tablet container
> 
> Sulfamethoxazole . . . 400 mg
> trimethoprim . . . 80 mg
> ...


Do you have the Metronidazole in hand, as well as the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and a 1cc syringe (with no attached needle)?

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

yes and yes and Spot is 8.25 ounces still.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I want you to crush up one of the Thomas Lab's Trimethoprim/Sulfa pills into as very fine a powder as you can, I use a shot-glass and the end of a kitchen knife the has a round end on it. After it is finely ground, I want you to add into the powder 10mL of either pancake syrup, honey, or light Karo syrup (10mL = 2 teaspoons, but you must use measuring spoon used for baking, scape spoon out well). Stir the powdered Trimethoprim/Sulfa and syrup together well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 4.8% TMS suspension to dose Spot with.

I want you to dose her 0.25cc (12mg), this is to the middle of the first and second lines on the 1cc syringe and for reference will be about 5 drops of medicine, you will do this every 12 hours.

For the Metronidazole I want you to do almost the same, except instead of 1 pill you will use 2 of the 250mg pills, grind, then add the powder to 10mL of syrup, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you have a 5% Metronidazole suspension to dose with.

I want you you to dose Spot 0.15cc (7.5mg, to the middle of the first and second line, this for reference will be about three drops, you will do this every 12 hours as well.

Make sure you stir the meds well each time you draw out a dose and keep them refrigerated between use.

With the increase in Kaytee balls and her hopefully responding to the meds, causing her to want to eat more, we may start to get some weight back on her.

Any questions, just ask,

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

I mixed the meds with honey and I don't seem to be having much issue with giving it to her. Although I think I'll try syrup in the future instead of honey. Spot has gained about half an ounce since the last time I posted her weight here. Her appetite is also very healthy now.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> I mixed the meds with honey and I don't seem to be having much issue with giving it to her. Although I think I'll try syrup in the future instead of honey. Spot has gained about half an ounce since the last time I posted her weight here. Her appetite is also very healthy now.


Liz, I have been wondering how your little one was doing. Glad to hear Spot's weight is starting to increase and her appetite has picked up as well, this is what we were hoping for, the syrup will be fine to use as well.

Thanks for the update, good job,

Karyn


----------



## LizG (Mar 10, 2006)

Spots weight is slowly growing (it hasn't decreased at all) and her poops are no longer the shiny mucousy color. Her appetite is also very, very good.


----------



## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

LizG said:


> Spots weight is slowly growing (it hasn't decreased at all) and her poops are no longer the shiny mucousy color. Her appetite is also very, very good.


Liz, thanks for stopping by with the positive update on Spot, I have been wondering how she was doing glad things are getting back to how they should be with her, the mucus has gone from her droppings and she is chowing down well . Today would make 12 days on the meds and she could go 2 more days, if you felt she needed a touch more time on them, or you could stop today. If you have never given it to her before, you can try her once or twice a week on ACV water (apple cider vinegar) get it from the health food store and a brand a lot of us here use is Bragg's. You can use 1 teaspoon into 1 quart of water to start, then take it up to 1 1/2 teaspoons after a few rounds. The ACV will acidify her GI tract promoting beneficial bacteria and making an unfriendly place for harmful bacteria and yeast to be.

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


----------

