# Previously Dominant Pigeon Now Being Bullied



## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hello,

I have two male pigeons, Bird-Bird and Philly, who live with me. They both cannot fly (they were found with wing-fractures that, while long since healed, left them flightless). I found Bird-Bird 2.5 years ago, and I got Philly about 8 months after that. Both pigeons were found in the wild, so we can’t know their exact ages, but we suspected that they were both pretty young when they were found. For almost 2 years Bird-Bird has been dominant. Last summer we treated Philly for parasites, and over the last 7-9 months Philly has been feeling better and better and acting less and less intimated by Bird-Bird. 

Starting a few weeks ago Philly began to overtake Bird-Bird. He edged Bird-Bird out of his favorite territory (a plastic kennel with a nest box in which Bird-Bird had spent time recovering from the broken wing I found him with). Now Philly seems to have taken all of Bird-Bird’s territory except for a small area under a dresser. Philly seems to be keeping Bird-Bird completely restricted to the space under the dresser. Philly often seems to camp out right outside the dresser, and whenever Bird-Bird emerges Philly attacks him. 

Luckily Bird-Bird has always had a food and water dish under the dresser, so he does have access to sustenance. But I’m very worried about what’s happening. Bird-Bird looks basically healthy to me, but he does seem to have a patch of broken feathers, I assume from fighting with Philly. Moreover, I am concerned that Bird-Bird’s inability to hold his own may be evidence of an underlying health problem that might be weakening him. Whether or not this is so, I really don’t like Bird-Bird being restricted to a square feet of territory. Also Bird-Bird and I have always been very close (I actually nursed him through his broken wing; Philly was found with his wing already largely healed), and Philly is preventing Bird-Bird from coming out to interact with me. 

I have an appointment scheduled with our vet to see Bird-Bird on Friday, to look at his broken feathers and check for underlying health problems (she’s out of town until then). But I was wondering if anyone else has encountered a situation like this, or if anyone might have thoughts about what I could do to improve the situation. I’ve always thought that it’s best for Bird-Bird and Philly to have each other’s’ company, even if their relationship is contentious, but if things don’t improve maybe I should separate them by dividing their area? At least for a short period of time, to see if Bird-Bird might recover his ability to hold his own? I would be most grateful for any thoughts or suggestions you could give me.

Thank you so much,
Howard (Nye)


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Two males can be a challenge together. Usually better if they have mates. Calms them down some. But I don't think you really want to add to the number of birds you have now. You may have to separate them at some point, or maybe have them caged and take turns out of cage for a while. I can understand why your original bird being bullied would be upsetting.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Aww... it is really sweet that you have adopted them and taken such good care of them! Really blessed birds!

Hope Bird-Bird and Philly can mend their differences and become friends again. Do update us with Bird-Bird's health check. Good luck!

PS: Any pics of them? Would love to see it!


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3 and Miss-Sassypants,

Thank you so much for your responses. Actually it had crossed my mind to adopt some other birds. Our local Humane Society is looking to rehome some doves. Bird-Bird and Philly live in their own room separated by a safe interlock (my bathroom) from our cats. Their room is the biggest room in the town house, and especially if the doves were able to fly and exploit parts of the room that Bird-Bird and Philly can't access it might not be too crowded Do you know if the sorts of doves they sell in petstores (which are the kind the Humane Society are looking to place) can get along with rock doves (i.e. pigies)? 

I was told that it wasn't safe to spay or neuter birds, and that the only way to practice birth control is to replace the eggs they lay with false eggs. (I actually have false eggs from when I first got Philly, since we thought he might be a girl). Do you know if that's right? Also even if it is safe to, say, spay the girls, do you know how that would affect their ability to form mated pairs? 

I will definitely post an update after we meet with the vet. I'm attaching a picture of Bird-Bird and a picture of Philly. I tried to post more pictures of them but the website doesn't seem to let me upload more than two pictures.

Thanks!
Howard


P.S. 
Do you know if people are getting their pigeons vaccinated for Paramyxovirus (PMV)? While Bird-Bird and Philly live strictly indoors it is getting warmer here and I was hoping to be able to keep their window cracked, but I'm starting to worry about airborne transmission from feral pigeons. I was just wondering if I should ask my vet about this when she sees Bird-Bird. Thanks again!


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Pretty Pretty!!!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not many vets spay birds. Think it's rather a difficult procedure. They just use the fake eggs. But keeping doves and pigeons together isn't a good idea, as the dove could be injured. Would be better off finding female pigeons. 

Most people that keep their birds inside don't vaccinate for PMV. Not really necessary.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Head Injuries From Fighting?*

Hi all,

I’m afraid that the bullying has been getting worse; Philly has continued to keep Bird-Bird restricted to his refuge under the dresser, and the fights seem to have increased in frequency and intensity. (Review: I have two male house pigeons who were found permanently flightless on account of broken wings; the previously dominant Bird-Bird has recently been surpassed and is now being bullied by the previously submissive Philly.) The corners of Bird-Bird’s mouth have been looking inflamed, and I just noticed today that he seems to be missing feathers around his eyes. I’m attaching a picture from today (including one from earlier for comparison; although even the earlier one was taken after Philly started Bullying Bird-Bird.). Can anyone tell me if the missing feathers around the eyes and the inflamed corners of his mouth look like they’re from fighting with Philly?

I’ve gotten so concerned about Bird-Bird’s getting bullied that I’ve partitioned their room with a baby gate. I hope I’ll be able to reintegrate them eventually, but I’m seriously concerned for Bird-Bird’s physical safety, not to mention his mental health.

Any help you could give me on whether Bird-Bird’s condition looks like the result of fighting would be most helpful. He seemed 100% fine at his vet exam a few weeks ago. 

Thanks so much!
Howard


P.S.
I recently found a third bird with a broken wing, and my vet suspects that he / she will also be flightless for life and thus unreleasable. (He’s currently being rehabbed at my vet’s office – besides me there’s another rehabber who has unreleasable pigeons who might be able to adopt him). My vet said that even if this pigeon is also a male, my adopting him along with Bird-Bird and Philly might improve things – e.g. if the third pigeon is dominant he might make Philly feel less inclined to attack Bird-Bird. I was wondering if anyone might have any thoughts about this: do you think that introducing a third male to the two contending males improve things? Do you think it could make things worse? 

If adopting this third pigeon isn’t an option I’m thinking that maybe I should really look to see if there are any unreleasable females who need a home. Especially if Bird-Bird and Philly need to stay separated I think that they should really have the company of other conspecifics, and if females are the only way to go then I guess should look for females (despite the hassle with looking for & removing eggs). And maybe, along the lines of what Jay3 said, having mates could calm Philly & Bird-Bird down to the point where they can be reintegrated with each other?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how do you know they are cock birds? He may be driving the other to the "nest" like they do naturally. but this spot just happens to be under the dresser.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Can you post a video of this behavior?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi spirit wings,

My evidence that both Bird-Bird and Philly are boys consists in:

(1) Bird-Bird tries to mate with inainmate objects (paper towel tubes, rolls of socks, even pearches he has on the ground) by mounting them - so I can't see how HE's not male, 

(2) In the 2 years they've lived together, Bird-Bird has never tried to mount Philly (and Philly has never tried to mount Bird-Bird). Instead, they've always had a relatively antagonistic relationship, staking out territories and policing them from each other (for the first year and a half Bird-Bird was dominant, now Philly's dominant). My vet thinks that the fact that they haven't formed a close bond is itself excellent evidence that they're both male,

(3) They both do a lot of bowing & dancing (and cooing),

(4) Some guy at the vet who used to race pigeons said he could tell males on sight, he saw Philly, and he said confidently that Philly is male.


Hi Skyeking,

I take it you mean a video of them interacting / fighting? I will if / when I reintegrate them; in the mean time I have them separated by a baby-gate and I'm a little hesitant about letting them interact just yet.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Howard,

Dominance struggles between males go on all the time where the space is well "marked out" by the birds. The problem is that they can get bloody and you may see one of them lose an eye if you allow it to continue. Like it or not, best to separate them and keep them that way until them mate up with another.

By the way do not mix doves and pigeons unless you want to see bloodied doves. They usually take a lot of abuse from pigeons.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Grimaldy,

Thanks very much for the warning about how bad this can get. They're separated now and seem to be doing very much better. I take it from what you're saying that the dangers of serious injury will still be present if I try to reintegrate them with a third male?

Do you think that if I get Bird-Bird & Philly mates they will calm down to the point at which they can be safely reintegrated, or will there still be dangers of bloody fights & eye losses? 

Thanks again!
Howard


P.S.
Given the advice from you & Jay3 I've definitely decided not to try to adopt doves - thanks!


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Howard,

If you bring in another male the dominance fights will start all over again as they try to establish a new "pecking order". If they find mates, and bear in mind putting females in with them does not mean they will mate up, the thinking is they will be too busy with their mates to worry about the pecking order. But essentially the dominance fights are to determine who gets first choice at mating. I notice that if they are free to fly out and away the dominance fights only take place inside the loft or if another bird gets too close to the dominant male. Usually the other males can avoid the fight by flying away or just hopping away from the challenger. The fights always seem to be related to the amount of available space there is.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I would try for at least a week to do the following: when Philly bullies Bird- Bird, just simply put him in a cage. Repeat that every time you see him bulling. I had the same situation and it worked. Pigeon learn by this repetitive exercise that when they attack other they get caged, which they don't like. So they simply learn. 
Or as Miss Sassypants said they are going to settle their problems.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Usually if you can put the male and the female in separate cages beside each other, they will within a weeks time start showing interest in each other. And normally they will mate up. You wouldn't mate one up and let all three be together, as that would cause more problems. But if you can mate both of them up, then put them back together, they will usually calm down. Having mates does make a big difference. They will have occasional skirmishes, but that should subside.


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