# incubated egg gets cold



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Dear Pigeon folk,
I write on behalf of my dear friend, Pollywog. She is a very old Parlor Roller. She came to live in our loft after I saw her living in deplorable circumstances at another loft. When she first arrived (and after her quarantine) she ran around the loft trying to feed any pigeon that would open their beak for her. We thought maybe she needed her own children to feed and perhaps that would help her put her desire to feed all winged creatures in a new perspective. It did. Then Pollywog seemed to quit laying eggs. Years later she has caught the eye of a strapping cock by the name of Red(he's a Birmingham Roller).
They became incurable romantics and yes, after what seemed like a very very long time Pollywog laid a fertile egg.
Her chick was about to hatch. Then yesterday an awful thing happened. Red was setting on the egg. Some way it got away and got terribly cold. I can't bare to throw it out, but, honestly pigeon folks, could this baby have survived. Please help me to know. It makes me ill to think she lost her baby. I allowed her to set on it again. It's now nice and warm. Please tell me. Is Pollywog's baby dead?








With saddened heart,
Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 27, 2001).]


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Nancy,

So sorry to hear of the misadventure with the egg. I have no idea whether the baby is still alive but certainly hope so.

Terry Whatley


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Thank you Terry. You are very kindhearted. I hope it can somehow be alive too. I just don't know though.
Sincerely,
Nancy


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

My vet tells me that there are cases of eggs being put in a refrigerator then placed in an incubator to hatch.

Never give up hope. INCUBATE IT!

d.


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Were these eggs just fertilized or were they almost ready for hatch. Pollywog's egg was about to hatch. I hope you are right. i want you to be right. I'll let you know. thank you for your kindness.








Sincerely,
Nancy


----------



## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Scuiry,

Well that is a little different. I think what your vet is relating is that eggs are often stored before incubation; but - we are talking about fresh eggs. So long as incubation has not begun, an egg can store for 7 to 10 days in very cool temperatures.

In Nancy's case, I am afraid to say that if the egg has cooled, there is very little chance of hatching.

In the summers, abandoned eggs can often be left for up to 10 to 16 hours and still hatch simply because it is warm enough out to sustain the emryo without proper incubation.

The winter is alot different. Depending on your locale, most abandoned eggs will not last but 2 to 3 hours. (Often the embryo survives to attempt hatching, but is too weak (stunted) from being chilled at some point to continue hatching and becomes tagged as "Dead In Shell".

You really didn't say how old this egg really was as far as a day count. Keep in mind, the incubation period is to 17-18 days in Domestic Pigeons and often, alot of people do not keep records enough to successfully keep track of how old eggs really are. Consequently, ALOT of novices have eggs go well into 20 days, where upon the pair abandons the egg (that is normal), but which leads the owner to think that they are bad parents, etc. when abandoning the nest after the full 17/18 days is natural.

If you really want to know if the embryo is still alive, if the egg is really due to hatching (within 24 hours), hold the egg up to your ear and listen for pipping. If you listen, you can hear the bird chipping away at the shell.

But, I would say if this egg is 18 days old and you can't hear the bird inside, it's all over.

Something else to look for ...

So called "Dead Eggs" take on characteristics that seperate them from viable eggs.

99% of these dead eggs will take on a sickly palish blue color. This is caused by the stages of embryonic death. What you are really seeing is the ceasing of oxygen in the embryo's developing blood vessels. Remember, blood appears a bluish color until it is combined with oxygen to produce the red color. So what you are seeing in a pale blueish looking egg is the loss of oxygen and developing eggs are loaded with blood vessels, most of which whose walls absorb oxygen that is brought in through the porous shell.

Other things to look for is a blotchy appearence to the egg. Alot of dead eggs take on the bluish hue and exhibit lighter colored spots, which is not a good sign.

Also, if you candle the egg and the interior sloshes around, you know that one's a goner too.

One thing to keep in mind - its winter and most breeds will not have much success breeding this time of year and a large percentage of eggs are lost to chilling (which doesn't take long in cool temperatures). Consequently, you have to expect some losses of squabs and eggs in an outside loft situation.

K.D. 
http://members.tripod.com/ultrarare/ 


------------------


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

I don't think so. In my case the egg had cooled and the vet recommended I have the hen start sitting on it again BECAUSE pigeon eggs have been known to survive even after being cooled to refrigerator temperature. He has been treating pigeons for thirty years, so I figure he knows what he's talking about.

Best,

d.

__________________
Scuiry,

Well that is a little different. I think what your vet is relating is that eggs are often stored before incubation; but - we are talking about fresh eggs. So long as incubation has not begun,
an egg can store for 7 to 10 days in very cool temperatures.


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

We'll see pigeon people. I did document the egg since the second egg was laid. It is now in it's 15th day. I candled the egg late last week. the interior of the shell was all but taken up. The earlier candling I did was very early on in incubation. At that time there were blood vessels and a larger spot pulsing.
Again,
I hope the baby is alive.
Right now, either way Pollywog is keeping it warm.








Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 27, 2001).]


----------



## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

d writes, in part: "My vet tells me that there are cases of eggs being put in a refrigerator then placed in an incubator to hatch."

d, there is a technique called "holding", whereby a fertile egg is stored, refrigerated, up to ten days prior to the onset of incubation. This is done for
"convenience" reasons by breeders and fanciers. I think this is what K.D. was referring to.

An interruption of the incubation cycle is another matter, entirely.

d also writes, in part: "In my case the egg had cooled and the vet recommended I have the hen start sitting on it again BECAUSE pigeon eggs have been known to survive even after being cooled to refrigerator temperature..."

d, I am honestly curious, was the incubation cycle fully started, interrupted, then restarted? How cold did the egg get and for how long--you live in a warm clime, yes? Did it hatch a healthy squabbie?

--Ray


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Dear Pigeon People,
I believe the egg (squab?) to be dead. But in case I'm wrong I have allowed Pollywog to continue to set on it for a while more. the other egg under her is a wooden egg.
Thank you for your help.








Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited December 28, 2001).]


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

Just be sure you let it sit for the full incubation period. I'd give it at least 21 days total. Either way, you're not hurting anything by letting the hen sit on it.

Good luck,

d.



> Originally posted by Nancy:
> *Dear Pigeon People,
> I believe the egg (squab?) to be dead. But in case I'm wrong I have allowed Pollywog to continue to set on it for a while more. the other egg under her is a wooden egg.
> Thank you for your help.
> ...


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

There was noticeable development on candling the egg. So it was an interruption in the cycle. The hen refused to sit on it anymore so I never had the chance to test my vet's advice. It could be he was confused but I doubt it. I'm not saying he's infallible but there may be a variety of experience out there that has not been documented yet.

d.



> Originally posted by Nancy:
> *Dear Pigeon People,
> I believe the egg (squab?) to be dead. But in case I'm wrong I have allowed Pollywog to continue to set on it for a while more. the other egg under her is a wooden egg.
> Thank you for your help.
> ...


----------



## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Scuiry,

I suppose it could be possible on a rare occassion, but it is certainly not normal.

Consistent successful "storage" of partially incubated eggs would be considered a major breakthrough to breeders and ornithologists alike. I would say that if your vet knew a way (and after over 10,000 pigeons and about 15,000 other birds, mainly Bantams, I personally can't buy it), at the very least, he would have the responsibility to document the method before a major journal.

It is true that alot of information out there has not been properly documented, but this largely historical information. What I can tell you is this - in my archive there are probaly only over 500 articles about egg storage, egg development, incubation, etc.
and ALL of them agree that 95% of chilled/cold eggs wind up as losses.

For that matter - even the USDA's official information states that even for normal storage (prior to incubation) that the temperature should not be below about 50 degrees, which is somewhat higher than a refrigerator. (For that matter, for best results, eggs should be stored at room temperature and I personally wouldn't EVER store in a refrigerator and that's coming from someone who once operated a small hatchery for a living and whose college minor was Poultry Science).

Personally, I think there is either a misunderstanding on someone's part, or that your vet hasn't learned much from his 30 years around pigeons. The truth is, the idea of cold storage of partially incubated eggs defies the logic of any experienced bird breeder and it just doesn't correspond with the facts.

I remember one year during hatching season, I had set over 500 Bantam eggs one week in May of '91. About 13 days in, we had a tremendous storm that knocked local power out for 9 hours one night. Consequently, the incubators were off for 9 hours. At the time I hoped that there wasn't an adverse effect on the eggs, BUT - of those 500+ eggs, only about a dozen hatched. That is about 2%, where as my normal hatching rate was 96%. This is a disasterous drop off by anyone's standards and was caused simply by only a few hours of complete coolness to about 60 degrees (the incubators will hold heat for awhile). Normal incubation temperature is about 99.5 degrees for Poultry, so even 60 degrees is a tremendous shock on a developing egg. Imagine what refrigeration temperature would cause since its considerably cooler.

That is not to say that it couldn't be done. Fact is, there are always rare exceptions and maybe your vet cited one, but this just isn't normal and I'll issue a challenge to anyone who can get a successful hatch from a dozen eggs this way. That means, I want at least 9 pipped eggs. (And I'll even loan you the incubator and give you the Bantam eggs to do it!). Fact is, I think one pipped egg in the dozen would be nothing short of a minor miracle.

Any takers?

K.D. Spurling


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

In a sense your story supports exactly what I was saying. Some of your eggs did hatch. It was not a total loss.

I don't think my vet meant that this was possible in all case, but that it has been known to occur. Just because something is known to occur doesn't mean it happens normally or often. I think he was trying to give me a ray of hope in a situation that seemed hopeless.

I would like to know at what point incubation begins. How many days from laying do eggs begin to incubate?

d.
_____________________________
I remember one year during hatching season, I had set over 500 Bantam eggs one week in May of '91. About 13 days in, we had a tremendous storm that knocked local power out for 9 hours one night. Consequently, the incubators were off for 9 hours. At the time I hoped that there wasn't an adverse effect on the eggs, BUT - of those 500+ eggs, only about a dozen hatched. That is about 2%, where as my normal hatching rate was 96%. This is a disasterous drop off by anyone's standards and was caused simply by only a few hours of complete coolness to about 60 degrees (the incubators will hold heat for awhile). Normal incubation temperature is about 99.5 degrees for Poultry, so even 60 degrees is a tremendous shock on a developing egg. Imagine what refrigeration temperature would cause since its considerably cooler.


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Update on Pollywogs cold egg. Well, the egg was rewarmed and gradually before the incubation time was up turned such an ugly color I removed it from under Pollywog and gave her a wooden egg to finish her setting time on her eggs. I was afraid it would burst and cause her health problems from all the bacteria.


----------



## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Scuiry,

Incubation generally begins after the second egg is laid. Some pairs will actually begin incubating the first egg prior, hence some clutches have eggs that hatch 24 to 48 hours apart.

From what I've seen, actual embryonic development begins to show about 36 hours after the incubation begins. As a kid, I remember my great grandmother showing me stages of embryonic development by breaking incubated eggs open at varying stages and going over them with a magnifying lense.

Based on her experience (over 80 years around Poultry, Waterfowl, Pigeons and Gamebirds) eggs began to develop right at around 36 hours. At that stage, they develop a bloodspot about twice the size of a pinhead.

K.D.

------------------


----------



## Scuiry (Jul 11, 2001)

When you say "incubate" do you mean the time when the pair is actually sitting on the egg?

d.



> Originally posted by turmani:
> *Scuiry,
> 
> Incubation generally begins after the second egg is laid. Some pairs will actually begin incubating the first egg prior, hence some clutches have eggs that hatch 24 to 48 hours apart.
> ...


----------



## turmani (Aug 29, 2001)

Yep. That's what I meant. As soon as they begin actually sitting on them.


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

UPDATE!! UPDATE!!
Pollywog has actually been inspired to lay a new egg. Her and her mate have built a tremendous nest. I slipped a nest pad under it for warmth. It's quite cold here. They are sharing duties and, well, we'll see.















Thanks for your help.
Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited January 10, 2002).]


----------



## raynjudy (Aug 22, 2000)

So once again, we wait.

Best wishes,

Ray


----------



## Nancy (Nov 7, 2001)

Thank you Ray & Judy. If only Pollywog knew how many were pulling for her, an old granny with eggs ferlilized by a strapping young cock by the name of red she'd be pleased.
Thank you again for your kindness.








Sincerely,
Nancy

[This message has been edited by Nancy (edited January 10, 2002).]


----------

