# "horses for courses"



## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Anyone put any stock into this theory "horses for courses". I wanted to buy some birds. I told a guy that sells birds where I was flying and he suggested I don't buy from him but try to buy top one loft and futurity birds that did well at races that fly around my area. I guess what I am asking: is a pigeon a geed racer anywhere it races or are there birds better suited for certain race courses. I don't mean weather variations more terrain.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I would have to agree with Sky on this one. I think an ace bird can do well anywhere. It's the influences around the bird that makes the difference. That's why one loft races are the way to go if you want to know what you have in your loft.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Consider about all lines of the birds/ strains Have been bought and flown world wide. The birds just have to adapt to your program. Now different types Some are slower but steady Works well in the harder races. Some have been bred for long races and others shorter races. Speed birds also raise birds that can do the longer races Just have to notice how the birds do over a few years to select from them what you need. The janssen brothers used to just like to race up to about 2500 miles. BUT there birds could win the 500 mile races they proved it just so people would rethink the story there birds were short distance. Its all how they are traine and flown. And Yes getting bettere birds to start with gets you a better way to build from. Thats a fact in all breeds of pigeons. And the idea is 3 pair of rather good birds is better then 10 pair of ok birds Chances of raising better with less.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*good or bad*



sky tx said:


> A loaded Question--we all have different Idea's about this. Me -I don't think it makes any difference.You either have good birds or not have good birds.


 Lets take this thought into a human situation, You have a couple that both carry a very hi IQ., they marry and have 7 children. What do you think the odds are of all those 7 children having the same IQ and making it home when the parents want them too? This is not to mention doing everything else the way the parents want them to do properly. I believe it is all in the raising and training in any aspect of the game. I have to say that one out of seven could be the good one. >Kevin


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> When I hear "horses for courses", I'm thinking the Mercedes Classic Course (flat terrain usually tail winds) vs. the Vegas Classic Course (rugged terrain, over mountains, snow to desert like conditions with headwinds).


I agree here. When I hear horses for the courses, I think of pigeons that are used to flying to a certain type of geographical landforms. Some birds don't like to go up and over mountains flying over 5000 feet and it takes a couple generations if not more to get birds that will get used to it. Then there are birds that fly well against head wind and what not.

Over normal terrain, if there is such lol, a good bird is a good bird. Now if you're going over mountains, you better get the right bird and not just a good bird.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

sky tx said:


> Maybe post an example of the cost to enter 1-2 of the races you mention? Cost of shiping to the race?-perch fee? Can we enter just 1 bird? or it has to be MORE than 1?
> And consider some of us are retired-and "Obama" is helping us older folks???--no longer working a 40 hour week.



I am kind of butting in here but I can tell you this there are futurities all over the country that you may enter birds in for less than $20 a bird, also this year I sent birds to a one loft race that total fees were $50 a bird. They are not all super expensive.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Guess I should have stayed out of this subject..Just a bad day for this 74 y/o.
Sorry I even mention anything.
Maybe I should Delete all my posts.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O K I think I have deleted them


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

ohiogsp said:


> I am kind of butting in here but I can tell you this there are futurities all over the country that you may enter birds in for less than $20 a bird, also this year I sent birds to a one loft race that total fees were $50 a bird. They are not all super expensive.


There's so many options out there for a breeder to get birds into races all over the country with very small entry fees. My club alone has 2 good races. We have the Great South Bay Classic which is 5 birds for 250 and first prize is 10,000 with 500 birds entered. But we also have our LBR Auction race where all you need to do is ask me for you 5 free LBRA bands next spring and I'll send them your way. And all you have to do is ship the birds here for one of the auction dates. This year for the LBRA first prize is going to be 9,000 split 50/50 but hey 4,500 for just paying for shipping a pretty nice prize. Plus the prizes are gonna go all the way down to 35th place so there's plenty of chances to win your shipping money back. Plus you'd get to see how your birds do in this part of the country.

As for "horses for courses" I belive in that certin birds do better in different enviroments. Like a bird that wins the Flamingo race in Florida over flat terraine might not do good where your flying where your birds have to fly over mountins. I think your one loft race kinda proves that some birds aren't cut out to fly in the mountins. I just looked at the invatory of your loft and just look how many more out of town birds have gotten lost on tosses then your own birds. I think it isn't becasue those birds weren't good it's just they aren't made to fly in the mountins like the bird your have have been bred for.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I do know people that fly well in the Vegas Classic, actually have won the whole race, and that kick butt in their combine flying a southerly course across the texas and oklahoma panhandles into kansas. Thats about as flat as you can get, and most of the time there are tail winds in the races. Not uncommon to get a 2000 ypm race there, and you definitely won't get that in the Vegas Classic. The same person has placed 3rd in a PA futurity race as well. I would say that there is SOME legitimacy to horses for courses, but I would also say that a superb family of pigeons will win anywhere they are taken as long as the handler is up to snuff.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> Your Dallas Combine being the central location and going north, south, west, east is not exactly flying different "courses", more so different directions.
> 
> When I hear "horses for courses", I'm thinking the Mercedes Classic Course (flat terrain usually tail winds) vs. the Vegas Classic Course (rugged terrain, over mountains, snow to desert like conditions with headwinds).


Your idea for horses for the courses I think is wrong As the same blood of of birds can be flown any where in the world. Say you have janssen based birds They can fly any where. Now endurance based birds Are horses for the courses. We have head wind races tail wind cross wind Higher altitude ect. A rougher race often those birds that may fly a little slower wins Yes Birds do have to adapt to regions of races. Thats in breeding and selection. If you put say a spped bird in a race a distance bird and what you call your rough weather bird in the same race And weather makes the diference you have covered the conditions that may be met in that race you have a better chance to place. Many cross a distance bird with a speed bird and send them out to 1 loft races. Now that cross may be 1/4 distance over the speed bird. and remember training the birds is part of the math in performance.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Hey sky tx I like reading your posts. You make sum people mad and make sum people think keep up the good work.
Dave


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Hello Pigeon 0446
As I no longer have any birds-I started collecting Racing pigeon Bands.
It would be great if you send me 2-3 LBR Bands-or any other bands you no longer need or want for my collection. I have about 5100 different bands/rings from 88-89 different countries.
Thanks


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm almost out of bands from this year and I need to keep a few around for my late hatches and stuff. But if you remind me in the spring when I have next years bands I'll send you a few.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> I agree, no need to delete your posts, just good discussion.


I agree! Everyone can always learn something from these types of discussions.

Although, I still believe a great performing strain of birds can do well in any course given the proper care and environment.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes Crazy Pete--I upset some members with my posts--But I just tell it like it is. The truth hurts sometimes.
When I raced -I'd give a bird whatever I thought would help it WIN. "PROPER CARE"?
Some flyers called them "DRUGS". But when my birds were 1-2-3 on a 500 mile race- Call it whatever you want.--I had my birds "READY" for 500 miles.
If you "know" your Vet or Dentist or Doctor you can get a prescription for whatever you need. And your insurance just might pay for it. Some for them was 40 cents a pill.
But then again--thats just the way I did things. I don't think My way would help a FERAL pigeon. You need good birds to start with.
I though Winning was the name of the game.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> Yes Crazy Pete--I upset some members with my posts--But I just tell it like it is. The truth hurts sometimes.
> When I raced -I'd give a bird whatever I thought would help it WIN.
> Some flyers called them "DRUGS". But when my birds were 1-2-3 on a 500 mile race- Call it whatever you want.--I had my birds "READY" for 500 miles.
> If you "know" your Vet or Dentist or Doctor you can get a prescription for whatever you need. And your insurance just might pay for it. Some for them was 40 cents a pill.
> ...


I'm just curious what your referring too when you say "prescription for whatever you need". What did you give your pigeons that required knowing a doctor or a dentist to get?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

jAxTech--How many years you been flying Pigeons?--38 is kinda young.
And I raced them for 31 years


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

ProPigeon Loft said:


> I'm glad you agree!
> 
> It that what you believe or have you had first hand experience with this?


Not first hand, but I know enough people who have and I have some of their birds in my loft. Right now, I'm still building up my Super Strain that will rule the world!


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

sky tx said:


> jAxTech--How many years you been flying Pigeons?--38 is kinda young.
> And I raced them for 31 years


Not to offend but some people fly for over 50 years and get handled by a newcomer his/her first year out with the big boys! 

That wasn't the case with me but you know what I'm getting at...


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Thats true, but usually when that happens, the 2nd year they fall flat on their face because they think they know it all and are now self proclaimed 'gurus'. They try all kinds of fancy handling strategies, 'magic pills and concoctions', when what they should have done is just kept it simple like they did when they were winning. Everyone has to learn.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

gOLDenboy55---I think that is "called beginners luck"
As you mention --they FIRST YEAR--what about future years? BUT HEY-they got a taste of winning and maybe stay with the sport


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> Thats true, but usually when that happens, the 2nd year they fall flat on their face because they think they know it all and are now self proclaimed 'gurus'. They try all kinds of fancy handling strategies, 'magic pills and concoctions', when what they should have done is just kept it simple like they did when they were winning. Everyone has to learn.


I agree with you Matt. If it ain't broke why fix it! I myself like to fly as natural as possible and still stay competitive. When you get into the "other" stuff it can get too complicated and might I add very costly.

Addition: Who wants Creatine in their daily diet?


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

sky tx said:


> gOLDenboy55---I think that is "called beginners luck"
> As you mention --they FIRST YEAR--what about future years? BUT HEY-they got a taste of winning and maybe stay with the sport


Well, if you have solid performing birds to begin with I wouldn't necessarily call it luck. I would call it maintaining the performance of that strain of birds and hopefully make it better for years to comes. My point is that a seasoned veteran can't discount someones birds because they just started with the sport and without knowing what ones birds can do.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Yes gOLDenboy55--I'm proud that they had/got quality birds to start with. I was lucky in that respect of getting Good birds to start with and advice/lessons from older flyers who enjoyed helping new/young flyers. They gave me very good birds-I did very good for a first year flyer-and that is what kept me in the Sport for 31 years. I wish 1-2 of them were still alive as they would pass on info to new/young flyers--"make" them enjoy flying pigeons. I'm not sure its any more like them around that really enjoy helping new/younger flyers just getting into the sport.
Truth is--NOT MANY younger people geting into pigeons-of anykind --PERIOD
It being a 24/7 hobby is not for them.---BUT if pigeons were Born with a KEYBOARD-WOW-we would run out of birds to give away.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I don't think its discounting a new comers birds, after all they can buy from anyone just as the veterans can. I think its discounting the new comers pigeon sense and handling ability, and I think that is plenty fair to do as I know I learned a ton of stuff through the years that sure would have benefitted me in my first season, but I hadn't put in the time yet to learn it at that point.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> Yes Crazy Pete--I upset some members with my posts--But I just tell it like it is. The truth hurts sometimes.
> When I raced -I'd give a bird whatever I thought would help it WIN. "PROPER CARE"?
> Some flyers called them "DRUGS". But when my birds were 1-2-3 on a 500 mile race- Call it whatever you want.--I had my birds "READY" for 500 miles.
> If you "know" your Vet or Dentist or Doctor you can get a prescription for whatever you need. And your insurance just might pay for it. Some for them was 40 cents a pill.
> ...


I think you got me all wrong..I wasn't asking because it is something I care to do..I just want to know what "DRUGS" you were giving your birds. I have seen some people just dominate races over veterans with 30+ years of experience..I want to know what they could possibly be doping the birds with. Of course they won't tell me their little secrets but you admitted you have done it..so what was it that you called "Proper Care" that requires a Doctors prescription that you used to get a edge?


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> jAxTech--How many years you been flying Pigeons?--38 is kinda young.
> And I raced them for 31 years


Before I take $1000 out of my family budget for a unikon clock I want to know what I am getting into..I could ask the same questions of members of my club but I feel like they are going to try and "sugar coat" the real deal. So I'll ask you or anyone else that wants to answer because were not competing against each other..should be no reason not to tell the truth.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

jAxTech--how many years you been flying Pigeons?
Unikon 's are very good---but--buy the same Brand clock other club members use.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

sky tx said:


> jAxTech--how many years you been flying Pigeons?
> Unikon 's are very good---but--buy the same Brand clock other club members use.


@ Sky Tx, 

He is not asking if he should buy a clock or not. He is asking did you dope your birds and if so with what drug. You alluded in an early post in this thread that you did. If you do or did dope up your birds he wants to know if that is common practice today.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> jAxTech--how many years you been flying Pigeons?
> Unikon 's are very good---but--buy the same Brand clock other club members use.


I like the way you answer a question with a question if your not comfortable explaining your earlier comment thats fine. I make no secret I am new to the racing pigeon sport and if hadn't been for a fancier not lethally culling his birds I would of never even known people race pigeons.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't know IF it was "ever" a comon practice.
He should use Google to look for pigeon Drugs-Medicine-Etc. maybe even pull up Dr. David E. Marx.
Maybe read between the lines.
Just my opinion--Respiratory is the largest problem with pigeon Racing -or any Sport.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> I don't know IF it was "ever" a common practice.
> He should use Goggle to look for pigeon Drugs-Medicine-Etc. maybe even pull up Dr. David E. Marx.
> Maybe read between the lines.
> Just my opinion--Respiratory is the largest problem with pigeon Racing -or any Sport.


Why would a person need to "know" a dentist or a doctor for a respiratory medicine that could be bought over the counter? I am reading between the lines and I think their is something there that is probably frowned upon.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

You-Me and Everone else has to be careful on Public forums--Are you a member of PETA?
They look for anything to make Pigeon flyers and other groups look BAD.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

jAxTech --maybe I have been using the WRONG stuff for Respitory.
I have been wrong lots of times.
Hope some old timers set me [and you ] straight on what to use.
What do you use? Lemon Juice?


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> You-Me and Everone else has to be careful on Public forums--Are you a member of PETA?
> They look for anything to make Pigeon flyers and other groups look BAD.


I hate Peta..I saw a news story where they seized this mans chickens..aka roosters because it was inhumane for him to keep them. He was'nt fighting them he was breeding them for their colors. So they concluded it best for the birds to be destroyed. Thats Peta..they don't want you or anyone else to own a animal. They want to kill your animals and tell you its the "right" thing to do.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> jAxTech --maybe I have been using the WRONG stuff for Respiratory.
> I have been wrong lots of times.
> Hope some old timers set me [and you ] straight on what to use.
> What do you use? Lemon Juice?


I've been using Apple Cider Vinegar 4 days a week and Garlic Juice with Brewers yeast 2 days a week and just started with Red Cell one day a week. I also use Diatomacous Earth sprinkled on the feed and I have been using Fish oil on the feed with ground Flax Seed sprinkled / Mixed in. I use a red pigeon grit with charcoal in it and I use oyster shell mixed in as well. So far I have been lucky I haven't detected any disease..but I know the birds won't show it until its too late. So I'm planning on trying the Foys 5 in 1 in August.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Well, I will try to address what you were asking jax. In Europe drugging pigeons has become a very bad occurrence, pretty close to what was seen in baseball a few years back with steroids. It has come to the point that birds can and will be drug tested for these performance enhancing drugs just like our professional athletes here in the states. Now, with that said, I have only heard of a few cases here in the states where it was suspected. Also, all it takes is for a flyer to dominate his club/combine/federation/ etc and people start throwing accusations that he is drugging his birds, why else would he be unbeatable? Couldn't be that he has better birds, couldn't be he stumbled upon a new system to fly pigeons that suits his lifestyle, it HAS to be drugs. After all there was a time and place when nobody knew about widowhood, can you imagine how hard it would have been to beat the inventor of widowhood when you are flying natural system? Same can be said about the light and dark systems for young birds etc etc. I do think you misunderstood what sky was saying though. He said if you know the right doctors you can get meds/prescriptions for just about anything, meaning people. Doesn't necessarily mean its bad or wrong. What I took it as saying is the better connections you have/make the better opportunities that are out there. For instance, I am in line to test some new products on birds when I get them into my new loft. Could be good, or it could end up being poison and killing them lol, hopefully not, but I think you get what I am talking about.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

WOW-jAxTech--you use the flax seed to water proof them?--so they can fly in Rain longer than the other members birds? Just wondering why you give them Flax seed?


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> I don't think its discounting a new comers birds, after all they can buy from anyone just as the veterans can. I think its discounting the new comers pigeon sense and handling ability, and I think that is plenty fair to do as I know I learned a ton of stuff through the years that sure would have benefitted me in my first season, but I hadn't put in the time yet to learn it at that point.


I don't think it's fair at all...that's the type of crap most older flyers do to newbies and then they wonder why the heck this sport/hobby is taking a nose dive to "nowhereville!" If we all as flyers have more of a helping attitude the sport/hobby would be better off IMHO.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Flapdoodle said:


> @ Sky Tx,
> 
> He is not asking if he should buy a clock or not. He is asking did you dope your birds and if so with what drug. You alluded in an early post in this thread that you did. If you do or did dope up your birds he wants to know if that is common practice today.


I am used to not getting a straight answer..I have a 2 year old son and a ex-wife..so I know all about the "run around" game. I realized after I asked if he did give up his "secrets" he might be in jeopardy of loosing face with his club. But he made it clear that the subject is'nt for a open forum so I won't continue it. 
Matt Bell, I appreciate the time and thought you put in to answer my question..I am supposed to be getting 3 birds from this flyer to add to my breeding program. I am not making any accusations but when 1 individual takes like 25-30 diplomas and everyone else combined only get maybe 10 diplomas and all of those for 4th - 10th place...It made me suspect there is more then just good breeding / training at play here. I have not heard any of the club members question his results and everyone is happy and cheered him. So I'll be learning from him his techniques soon as he is clearly the "Man" to beat.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> WOW-jAxTech--you use the flax seed to water proof them?--so they can fly in Rain longer than the other members birds? Just wondering why you give them Flax seed?


Same reason I added Red Cell into my nutrition program...you suggested it.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2010)

jAxTecH said:


> I am used to not getting a straight answer..I have a 2 year old son and a ex-wife..so I know all about the "run around" game. I realized after I asked if he did give up his "secrets" he might be in jeopardy of loosing face with his club. But he made it clear that the subject is'nt for a open forum so I won't continue it.
> Matt Bell, I appreciate the time and thought you put in to answer my question..I am supposed to be getting 3 birds from this flyer to add to my breeding program. I am not making any accusations but when 1 individual takes like 25-30 diplomas and everyone else combined only get maybe 10 diplomas and all of those for 4th - 10th place...It made me suspect there is more then just good breeding / training at play here. I have not heard any of the club members question his results and everyone is happy and cheered him. So I'll be learning from him his techniques soon as he is clearly the "Man" to beat.


when people put it out there they could at least be straight on their follow up info instead of avoiding what they are trying to cover up after a statement like that so people can know what they are trying to say ... its crap when they drop a bomb like that and leave you hanging like that  why even bring it up is all I have to say


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

O-WELL-no run around-- Wish I could remember how many birds I have buryed trying different things.
Do like I did -experiment. "PAY THE PRICE".
And I'll tell you right now--the teacher will help you win Races--BUT he will not tell you100% of what he knows or maybe do for certain races.
Another "HINT"-go to lots of pigeon meeting/get togethers/Just vist -maybe listen -[ to the flyers sitting at a table close to you [ evedrop ]. Don't ask a lot of questions.]. Remember some of the words they said/used. Then do your homework. I wrote notes on my pack of cigarettes-get home and look them up - and with my spelling some words were difficult to look up .


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I might loose face here but I really don't care to "win" if its not on a level playing field. I'm not looking for any short cuts..I just want my birds healthy and in "Top Form". I will be passing on this hobby to my son and I want him to know his father raced "straight up".


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Every body wants to win all you new guys think you can go out and buy birds from Ganus or CBS, get a bag of race mix and win. NOT The old fliers will tell you some of their secrets and then you go out and put your own twist to it and then wonder why it didn't work. We "us old guys" have all payed our dues. We give a clue here and there but we learned the hard way, and so should you. We mix our own grain different for the short, the medium, and the long distance. I put stuff on the food for the 500 and 600 mi race, its legal you can buy it at Safway and I will not tell you just cause you want.
Go get the book from Rotondo, Cornel U did a study there are all kinds of web sites go read learn take notes and just maybe in a few years you can be the MAN to beat, just don't expect us to just give it up. JMO
Dave


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Every body wants to win all you new guys think you can go out and buy birds from Ganus or CBS, get a bag of race mix and win. NOT The old fliers will tell you some of their secrets and then you go out and put your own twist to it and then wonder why it didn't work. We "us old guys" have all payed our dues. We give a clue here and there but we learned the hard way, and so should you. We mix our own grain different for the short, the medium, and the long distance. I put stuff on the food for the 500 and 600 mi race, its legal you can buy it at Safway and I will not tell you just cause you want.
> Go get the book from Rotondo, Cornel U did a study there are all kinds of web sites go read learn take notes and just maybe in a few years you can be the MAN to beat, just don't expect us to just give it up. JMO
> Dave


I wouldn't have even commented on this thread if it was all about what you can buy at the grocery store..thier where "clues" implied in a earlier post about knowing doctors and dentist to get prescriptions which caught my interest. I'm glad you have your secrets more power to you..but that was'nt what I was asking about.


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Crazy Pete is my kind of man--Tell it like it is--let them Pay Their Dues.
Even if we tell them-Some dummy will start a subject telling us - we are wrong-it will not work.
So we keep our mouths shut. 

And jAxTacH--explain Level Playing Field? Do you Know 100% what other flyers are doing/trying to win-buy a winner in a BOTTLE-but it is not working for them.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> Crazy Pete is my kind of man--Tell it like it is--let them Pay Their Dues.
> Even if we tell them-Some dummy will start a subject telling us - we are wrong-it will not work.
> So we keep our mouths shut.
> 
> And jAxTacH--explain Level Playing Field? Do you Know 100% what other flyers are doing/trying to win-buy a winner in a BOTTLE-but it is not working for them.


Fair enough...seeing as we hijacked this persons thread. I'll explain level playing field when you explain why a person would need to know a Doctor or Dentist for pills that cost around 40 cents to win races?


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

If I use a Prescription at the Drug Store-My insurance pays for it.
Hope your insurance is as good about paying for some Drugs your family needs.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2010)

jAxTecH said:


> I wouldn't have even commented on this thread if it was all about what you can buy at the grocery store..thier where "clues" implied in a earlier post about knowing doctors and dentist to get prescriptions which caught my interest. I'm glad you have your secrets more power to you..but that was'nt what I was asking about.


point was when people dont even race anymore why cant they share these secrets or what are they trying to get across, why be so secretive if I want to know what they are trying to get across at this point lol


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

sky tx said:


> If I use a Prescription at the Drug Store-My insurance pays for it.
> Hope your insurance is as good about paying for some Drugs your family needs.


Level playing field means to me anything that anyone can purchase legally.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I dont think he will tell what it was, but if you google steroids for pigeons you can find out. Stay straight up doping only hurts the sport and the birds. I dont understand people that have to do that. Who was it that said cheaters never win and winers never cheat.
Dave


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

I know what he was talking about I just wanted him to say it...kind of like a chess match. I have all kinds of respect for ol timers they have helped me alot..so hopefully no hard feelings.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I must learn this game of chess. ; )
Dave


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> I must learn this game of chess. ; )
> Dave


Maybe a bad analogy..but I can introduce you to my ex-wife if you love to argue.. she's perfect for that.


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*winners*

So, the bottom line is, regardless of what you give your birds like ourselves if they like it they are going to fly there little wings off to get back to it. I am thinking using anything a bird likes as in the primitive widowhood they are going to fly like H$%^ to get back to it. 

I am not going any deeper into to that but I have to ask one question. If I was to buy birds that where breed to fly in So. Cal. and raise there young then send there offspring to a flapdoodle race they would have a better chance of winning then say birds that where breed and raced in Michigan?
>Kevin


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Yes flaps race is in Cali and I'm glad we're back to the topic!

I felt like I was at a club meeting for a minute there....lol.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

I think it all boils down to generations of natural selection and survival of the fittest in the terrain you are flying over.


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

*email from a guy who makes a living in the business*

I wanted to get his permission before I posted, I figure rather then edit out the part that talks about "horses for courses" I would just post the complete email. This is what prompted my original post, before (like most posts and club meetings as Goldenboy stated) we got a little side tracked. I think he has some pretty good insight on getting birds.

Tom,

I am traveling the country right now as this is our convention season, so it is not always easy for me to reply to e-mails promptly as I am moving so much, and I often don't have the time to answer as fully as I would if we were having a phone conversation, but here goes.

You seem to live in California based on those race stations that you listed on your e-mail. That is a tough course and you will need good birds to negotiate it. I certainly cannot tell you what is the very best thing to do because there are so many variables involved, but I will try to give some sound advice. First, the guy who is offering the breeders. What are the circumstances? Is he no longer racing? Or did he buy too many birds and wants to get some money back. Keep in mind that any bird can be a breeder. All it has to do is raise a youngster to be called a breeder. If a guy bought birds (which many many do) and decided he had too many, he certainly did some selecting and then decided that some were dispensable. Now this still does not mean that the guy selected the right ones, unless he has bred from them and already knows, but has too much money invested to kill them. If they are still fairly young, and he has not bred from them, and you like their looks, and if they are from a family of birds that has done well in your area, then you might want to take a look, and try to bargain, beca use he is obviously in a bargaining position.

It is a difficult thing to acquire really good stock, but not impossible. I think that I would suggest that you try to find birds that have some history on your course first and foremost, because there are definitely "horses for courses." You should also consider whether or not you will want to be really good in young bird racing or really good on long distance racing, because those are on two very different ends of the spectrum. If you know of a person or persons who do really well on your course, then I would suggest that you contact them, and ask if you can buy birds. I think you will have best success and pay the least amount of money buying late hatches from his breeders. If the guy won't sell you birds, find out if he races in any futurity races. Many futurities around the country have auctions after the futurity is over and sell the top 25 or top 50 birds depending on the entry rules and regulations. The futurity may give some of the sale money back to the breeder and keep some for themselves to help them make a profit, but the key point here is that many top lofts enter these money futurities and they put their very best birds into them. If a bird wins enough to be in the auction, it is a good bird. If it is from a loft that flies well in your area... well I think you know where I'm coming from.

You will probably pay a fairly good price, but you will be starting with the best, and it will already be proven as a very good racer. I know that some of the guys in your area are competing in the World Ace Challenge. That is probably the most difficult futurity in the United States. The birds must race 6 races from 150 to 400 miles, and for the first four races the birds have only four days rest between. Any bird that survives this meat grinder of a schedule and is at the top or even in the top 100 or 150 at the end is a really good bird. I'll give you an example. I have raced this futurity for three years. My first year, my best bird did not crack the top 130 birds, but I bought it back anyway. I sold it later to a guy who wanted a proven racer. The bird has already bred him the best bird in his loft and the best bird in a friend's loft. He crossed it with birds he already had. Two years ago I had two birds that finished in top 150 or so and I bought both of them back. One I sold and one I kept. Both have bred AU Ace pigeons already.

If you were to know, for instance, that a couple or three of the top lofts in the Northern California area had birds entered in the World Ace Futurity, and you waited until the end when they have the auction and you saw that they each had a bird or two or even more in the top 50 or 100 birds which were going to go up for auction, I would be working hard to get at least one if20not two of those birds. I also would not hesitate to tell you that any bird coming out of that futurity is going to be a good bird. The kind of bird that will do well on your course.

Keep that in the back of your hat. You might be able to steal a really good pigeon at a fair market price that could set you up for years to come.

Hope this helps,
Ed 
Siegels


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

thanks for posting this, very excellent point of view....ed midvel (seigel) himself has some excellent line of birds,


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

bloodlines_365 said:


> thanks for posting this, very excellent point of view....ed midvel (seigel) himself has some *excellent line of birds*,


I had gotten some of his/Seigel's Super Shellins from him. If I had not left a training in my clock on one race and missed clockout time on another in 2008 young bird season one of them would have been an Ace Pigeon as a young bird.

He is in the breeding loft now. As a matter of fact, the birds sent to the PT race for K2RMX.ROB are out of him. One of them is still there and five of its brothers and sisters are racing for two different flyers in the Treasure Coast Club, FL.

Ace


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

LokotaLoft said:


> point was when people dont even race anymore why cant they share these secrets or what are they trying to get across, why be so secretive if I want to know what they are trying to get across at this point lol


You got the point right, like someone said:"They won't believe us" even when we told. Lots of "MistraKnowItAlls" on this site too.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> I had gotten some of his/Seigel's Super Shellins from him. If I had not left a training in my clock on one race and missed clockout time on another in 2008 young bird season one of them would have been an Ace Pigeon as a young bird.
> 
> He is in the breeding loft now. As a matter of fact, the birds sent to the PT race for K2RMX.ROB are out of him. One of them is still there and five of its brothers and sisters are racing for two different flyers in the Treasure Coast Club, FL.
> 
> Ace


now i know where to get some excellent crosss..... thankss


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2010)

jpsnapdy said:


> You got the point right, like someone said:"They won't believe us" even when we told. Lots of "MistraKnowItAlls" on this site too.


all I know is, it sure would be nice to know about all the ins and outs of this crazy little flying feind we like to use to bring us a little glory in any racing situation ,because we all know that they are truely capable of amazing feats no matter what the situation they are put in and up against  the word pigeon should mean so much more then what comes across when one hears it in any language


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