# Too many pigeons



## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi Everyone, I think I have too many pigeons. I currently have 26 American Giant homers, 23 West of England Tumblers and 14 Birmingham Rollers. I think if I had only a few pairs of each, I would enjoy them more. Does anyone else feel this way of have felt this way?

Thanks


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

If it feels like a job ,than it's time to give it up


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah it seems like that can be a lot of work!

I have kept myself to strict restrictions now. I've only kept what I'm going to be breeding from next year and got rid of a lot of birds. 

Next year after racing season, I will select what young birds I want to keep for breeding (if any are good enough) and will put them into the breeding program and eliminate breeders whose ybs didn't perform well enough. 

I'll get rid of everything else that doesn't meet my breeding requirements. Each year I'm going to do some very strict breeding selections and only keep the best. It'll keep my numbers down, and improve the quality of my birds over time.


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## epul (Oct 11, 2011)

I could never have to many right now 10 breeds and counting


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Gubrir: I hate the words you're using, it's not the first time: GET RID. Sounds so careless: "get rid", especially that they are your pigeons. Sorry but i can't stand it; just because they do not perform well...let's get rid of them, who cares who takes them or if they die.

Ups, this is not the rescue post, but the racing one.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I guess the terminology "get rid" of is not the best to describe an elimination process I use. 

I basically decide who fits the breeding selection and who doesn't and the rest are taken to a local livestock auction. These are not all bad birds. They are simply not what I want my future young to resemble. People come from many communities to this auction so there are always people willing to buy them.

I simply do not want to keep every pigeon just because it was bred by me. It may not be able to help me, but it can help someone else. The more birds I keep the more the city would look into me keeping the birds and the more trouble I'd get into. So I keep the very best and breed from them. Eventually the number of birds I need to take out of the loft will begin to decrease as the quality of my breeders will increase so evidently, there would be less birds I would need to give away.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Well the livestock auctions aren't such a good thing either. It's a bad thing to happen to a good bird.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I think its the only solution a person has that starts out new with racing pigeons.

I don't have it in me to break their necks like people do. A good question would be, to ask everyone on this forum what they do with their birds that don't fit their standards?

Unless you sell them to a true pigeon fancier lying and saying "they're great quality birds from this bloodline or that bloodline" anything you do is going to look negative. And to be honest, I don't want to lie to a fancier either saying they're good birds when they haven't performed for me. They might do them some good, but I don't want to lie initially and give them the wrong idea.

Another idea I've heard of is people getting their birds completely race healthy and send everything they want to give away on a training toss that is ridiculously long distance, I'm talking 450+ miles. In their mind, any pigeon that makes it back is worth keeping and any that isn't will get lost and thats the last you'll see of them.

So in my mind, the safest thing to do is sell them at the auction. After that, it is the person buying them who has a decision to make. Some people buy pigeons from there who simply want pets or have a barn they fill up with pigeons, while the intentions of some may not be good.

I guess eliminating the birds is the same as racing. When you send a bird to a race there is a possibility of it getting lost, so why can't the same risk be taken when you know the quality of the birds when it comes to flying is not the same as your standards?

All of me doesn't agree with selling them at the auction, but a part of me thinks its a lot more humane than the other options I mentioned in this post and what people generally do.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

GIVE THEM TO ELEMENTARY STUDENTS, kids love pets, and not many are big enough to walk the dogs yet so they start out with small pets.

they love to have a pigeon as a indoor cage bird. Being a single bird and having their parents paying for food, each and everyone of those birds will live a luxury life.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Its pretty hard to get kids interested into pigeons.

But my plan is to use pigeons as therapy animals. In about 2-3 years I'll just use any extra birds I have as the birds the therapy program participants can use.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Gurbir Brar B.C. said:


> Its pretty hard to get kids interested into pigeons.
> 
> But my plan is to use pigeons as therapy animals. In about 2-3 years I'll just use any extra birds I have as the birds the therapy program participants can use.


LOL not really, i sold 30 pigeons,"Arch angels" for 15 dollars each to Elementary Kids, have them give me their parents signature or get their parents to pick it up at my house.

Personally Arch angels is a much more dazzeling bird then the Budgie i owned when i was in Elementary school. Also that money i got was donated back to the school, as the school have a rule of no trades allowed on school grounds unless its a fund raiser.

I didn't want to give away those birds but because of local bylaw im only allow to keep so many.

So yes, Schools are a good way to give your pigeons a good home, specially nowadays where everyone wants pigeon owners gone. Bylaws are causing so many people to shut down their lofts. If you want to save your birds but not scared to lose profit then you can talk to the principle about a FUND RAISER, and use the money you get from the birds to help the school buy books.

By the way a Budgie Cost 30$ where I'm From, so im selling a better looking pet to these kids for half the price.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

This is a universal problem i think, what to do with these extra birds 

I have tried giving it to a novice whom i think can take good care, or sell it to the local market where there are hundreds of buyers or gift it to a friend

seriously i dont like to sale my birds but the problem is that i cant keep too many birds due to the limited space, time and expense


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## Possum Fat (Mar 18, 2010)

This might sound nutty, but when I start to think I'm getting too many pigeons....I stop letting them breed. I separate the cocks and hens or I pull eggs when they're laid. We owe it to our birds to not allow them to be overcrowded.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

What ever you do, in anyway you breed some day you will feel that i cant handle that many birds

specially if you are breeding for having some good young racing pigeons


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

You can certainly give your birds dummy eggs to keep them from having more babies. 

But the question remains, what to do with the extra pigeons once you have too many. Because a certain number might be fine to manage today, but in a year it might be too much to handle and you will have to give some away.

The answer to this dilemma is: What do most people find is appropriate to "get rid" of pigeons?

1. Give the birds to a beginner when you know they are not good birds (as far as flying goes). There are some moral issues at stake here.

2. Release the birds so far away that only the best will make it home, and the bad ones will get lost on the way.

3. Sell the lower quality birds at livestock auctions.

4. Give the birds to someone that just wants to keep them as pets (hard to find people like these). 

5. Kill the pigeons (frowned upon by many, including myself)

I would consider doing options 3 and 4 before any of the other options.


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## Country84 (Nov 12, 2012)

Option 5 probably just lit a 5 you wont be able to put out. Im sure if you offered them on here there would be someone that would take them, i would but i dont need anymore prisoners. Perhaps better terminology would be "relocate to another loving him" lol


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

you can use what ever words you want cull or get rid of .it all means the same thing . whenever some one has pigeons whether it's homer or brunners or what ever breed you have unless you put dummy eggs under each one every time you are going to have birds that you will want to give away or sell .I'm going to be breading for shows. if i get birds that are not up to my standards i will cull them off .weather i sell them or send them to auction .but i will need to cull some of them .


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

I have all the space I need to breed plenty of pigeons and have a lot of them but I just feel I'm not spending enough time out there. I do not show them, it's just for a hobby. I really do not think I could get rid of any even though I feel I have too many, lol


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

FACT is If a person raise the birds for SHOW, RACE, OR any performance base. The birds must be selected. that means you can not EVER keep all birds you raise. As this part of pigeon keeping is and has been the main thing that keeps the hobby going.. If a person say raises 100 young birds And keep say 20 That means 80 had to go. That is part of the hoby. AND often there is a place to get rid of them EVEN the peddlers Have a part they take those unwant birds and sell them at meets shows ect. So People need to understand The hobby is more then SOME PET pigeon it is the love of the birds and competing trying to make the birds better for there use show, race ect. As just a pet Youi do not need to raise ANY or just a few. But to compete you have to raise several to fing the better birds.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Summary is extra birds have to go


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I wonder if keeping an open loft for the spare birds might help with some breeds? It would reduce work considerably, and be sort of like soft releasing them in to the wild, but you would still provide food, water and medical care. You would expect they would eventually shelter elsewhere because of the need to find nest spots etc?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

That would seem like a good idea but its not for people that keep performing breeds or racing pigeons. The open loft would attract hawks, and since the birds would be out so much, there is a good chance they would get caught. This in return would make the hawk want to stay in the area because it gets fed all the time.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> I wonder if keeping an open loft for the spare birds might help with some breeds? It would reduce work considerably, and be sort of like soft releasing them in to the wild, but you would still provide food, water and medical care. You would expect they would eventually shelter elsewhere because of the need to find nest spots etc?


This is a good idea, but there are a few problems like when you train your flying birds or toss them for a few miles these extra birds will trap with the returning birds

I have tried that open loft idea but in my case no one left 

After a few days these birds with plenty of food and water will become a bunch of untamed birds with their crops full and not ready to follow any of your instructions, may be some day they will leave. IMHO this is the possibilty for those who are not flying their birds


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah you're right, its probably not a practical idea. And they'd breed and next you know you have 200 wild birds to feed. Maybe if we all were rich and lived in castles with dovecoats and staff to tend to them, lol.

Its kind of sad, the situation with rehoming pets. I can't think of any easy answers. I guess we all just do our best. Even looking after one pigeon is better than none.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the other pigeons owners cull them...

This Hobby it's inhumane and selfish. Not too far from the hobby of shooting them.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Too many pigeons?????? How about starting a mentoring program and get some young blood into the mix. If you like breeding pigeons then how about giving the ones you dont want away. Keep the hobby going by getting new blood into the mix and giving some young kids a chance to enjoy the hobby like us. Just my opinon.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

tjc1 said:


> Too many pigeons?????? How about starting a mentoring program and get some young blood into the mix. If you like breeding pigeons then how about giving the ones you dont want away. Keep the hobby going by getting new blood into the mix and giving some young kids a chance to enjoy the hobby like us. Just my opinon.


No one does this, and are too scared to do it, because people are scared what others will think of them knowing that they own pigeons.

It was so easy getting children in the ages of 7 to 12 started in the hobby with only 1 pet pigeon. They can't breed while only having one pet and if they choose to get into the hobby later, it's their own choice to do so.

some birds are easier to give away then others like fancy pigeons. The reason why the game Pokemon became so popular was because children have a infinity for animal and wild life.

I never really believe its hard to get children started, it's hard to get teenagers to start because their judgement is clouded by hormones, but for kids, they take any pet they can get.

I already gave 5 birds away to family members where the kids begged me for one.

If your looking for profit from your birds then of course your not going to get rid of your poorer quality birds.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Possum Fat said:


> This might sound nutty, but when I start to think I'm getting too many pigeons....*I stop letting them breed. * I separate the cocks and hens or I pull eggs when they're laid. We owe it to our birds to not allow them to be overcrowded.


*You* are the smartest one of all!
Do replace the eggs with fake ones though and let them go through the process of laying.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I plan to do a large production of young birds in the future and I already have a plan for what to do with extra birds or birds that perform well but if I have too many of the same type to breed from. I'm working on therapy programs/general programs and my intended participants will be kids in school, youth in general, youth at risk, substance abuse users, individuals suffering from anti-social personality disorder/mood disorders, violent crime victims, individuals with a violent history, etc. Basically, the birds could be used with anyone.

My plan is to build 2 or 3 similar lofts that will have 2 sections. 1 for breeding and 1 for flying young birds. 
Intended size is 8 X 8 (to make building easier). 

Breeding section - 8-10 pairs of racing pigeon breeders
YB section - A team of 20-30 YBS

The lofts will be built in a way it is possible to EASILY take them apart, move in a standard size pick up truck, and assemble - all within a couple of hours. 

This is because each group of individuals I work with, I'll give them a 1 year period. If the program/work has some success, I'll extend the offer. Otherwise, I'll take the loft apart and move to another organization/group of people. 

Any extra birds will be given to these lofts. They'll essentially be my birds, being raised, trained, and flown by others. I get the results from more birds than I could handle by myself and they get something positive in their lives. 

This idea of mine will essentially give a bird 2 or 3 chances to prove itself.

1st chance - Flying as a young bird at my house
2nd chance - If it didn't fly exceptionally well it will be given to the programs to breed from
3rd chance - The birds young must fly good in order for it to remain in the "system"

Obviously, extremely bad quality birds will need to be sold at the auction cause bad birds will just produce more bad birds, thus assisting in population growth of "bad birds". 

The birds remaining at my home will be what I would call AAA Grade Pigeons the pigeons used for breeding in the programs will essentially be AA Grade Pigeons. I can have 2 or 3 primary programs, and then multiple programs running underneath those programs. So the birds that don't perform well at the AA level, can be sent to the A Grade Level lofts where they can be bred.

Essentially it would be a "pyramid scheme" breeding system. The best being in my personal possession at home, 2 or 3 primary breeding lofts, and multiple testing grounds for untested birds or birds who haven't performed up to their potential. 

In this way I could have a system where a couple hundred pigeons could be successfully flown/housed/tested but at the same time the quality of the birds at each level would be increasing every year. 

If a project at one location is moved to another due to unsuccessful results (I'm talking the therapy of the individuals is not successful to any extent), then the breeding birds belonging to that loft will remain with that loft and move onto the next loft. Basically, each loft will have a roster, like a team, and the team will stay in tact but birds can be traded among the different "teams" to help/assist the quality to increase.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dima said:


> You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the other pigeons owners cull them...
> 
> This Hobby it's inhumane and selfish. Not too far from the hobby of shooting them.


Hey Dima! You're a purist like me I can't stand suffering in pigeons and will do anything I can to help them.

I'm aware, though, without the pigeon breeders and pigeon racers in my country, there probably wouldnt be any pigeon vaccines or pigeon food I could buy. Even the one Vet who stocks PMV vaccine in my state won't sell it in small quantities any more, because there's not enough demand. So if people racing & breeding pigeons are what keeps my pigeons alive in the long run, because I can still get vaccines for them, then i am grateful. Even if its not my reason for keeping pigeons, I guess at least they are keeping some alive.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Dima said:


> You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the other pigeons owners cull them...
> 
> This Hobby it's inhumane and selfish. Not too far from the hobby of shooting them.


Do you believe what you said ,If so You should learn more about pigeons in the hobby And how they Are well taken care of. Your words hurt more then ever help


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

re lee said:


> Do you believe what you said ,If so You should learn more about pigeons in the hobby And how they Are well taken care of. Your words hurt more then ever help


http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Local+Shows/Ontario/Ottawa+Morning/ID/2306787870/?sort=MostPopular

This woman Imported pigeon seeds all the way from Belgium, European dollars is worth double that of Canadian dollars ,and you add delivery fee. That's alot of money spent on her birds.

My parents wouldn't even spent that much money on me and im human  Imagine importing food from Belgium monthly for your birds?? that's insane.

Some of the older hobbist treat their pigeons like thieir children, when their kids leave home for work and marriage. Their lonely ,and have no one else to be with specially at the age where your partner most likely will pass away before you do.

It's sad that local Bylaws are taking their pets, they treat them as if it's their own children. I don't believe a retired granny would have much money to spend on importing seeds, she must be putting alot of her retirement fund into those birds.

to truely understand someone, people should actually try to get to know them first before assumptions.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

re lee said:


> Do you believe what you said ,If so You should learn more about pigeons in the hobby And how they Are well taken care of. Your words hurt more then ever help


I am talking about the Hobby of racing them and any other pigeon Hobby, that for the sake of the Hobby people have to " get rid of them". I have my hobby with my pigeons, 20 pigeons, they are all my pets (let's say) because they all live in a huge basement apartment. I also have rescues, one cannot fly. I think i have too many, but i wouldn't get rid of any of them. I will accommodate them according to the circumstances. A owner that races pigeons, if the pigeon is not good..he get rid of them..Should i have culled the one that has a broken wing and not spend more than 200 dollars for the vet? It's just a feral, who would give a damn on it? Only me?

My hobby it's selfish in one way, but that doesn't make it inhumane.
It's not for the money or for the fun of it. Pigeons are feeding my soul, therefore i do not consider it a hobby.

You said that my words hurt than ever would help...Sometimes people need to hear the truth that hurts in order for their conscience to be awaken.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Keeping pets and racing has to be considered two different things, in racing you breed from a few of your best pairs and get like 20 ybs in a year, but you need 10 for your flying kits

Now in any *smart or smartest way *you breed you will have extra birds that you don't actually need for your flying kit or whatever you call it, there are many ways to handle these extra birds like people have discussed it here, we can suggest people what to do but there is no need to accuse anyone for mishandling their birds

We are here to make things better not for any blame game


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Pigeonfriends said:


> http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Local+Shows/Ontario/Ottawa+Morning/ID/2306787870/?sort=MostPopular
> .


Pigeonfriends, upon you PM i posted an new thread in order to start a on line petition. It's still under approval by administrators on this site.

Where i live in Malton, Mississauga, the whole community is a pigeon lover. We have more than 250 ferals that are fed daily, especially by SouthAsian community. We just love them. I hope the ban won't go farther than Cornwall; because i will still rescue and feed them, even if i have to go to jail. As far for my pets, my pigeons are not to be released, if anyone try to get rid of them, yes, i will fight to death for them. That's how much price i put on them.

And as for the guy that parked his car in a place where it got covered in poops; that guy must be stupid or purposely did that. It's basics hygiene that people should be taught, if they have or not have pigeons.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Dima said:


> I am talking about the Hobby of racing them and any other pigeon Hobby, that for the sake of the Hobby people have to " get rid of them". I have my hobby with my pigeons, 20 pigeons, they are all my pets (let's say) because they all live in a huge basement apartment. I also have rescues, one cannot fly. I think i have too many, but i wouldn't get rid of any of them. I will accommodate them according to the circumstances. A owner that races pigeons, if the pigeon is not good..he get rid of them..Should i have culled the one that has a broken wing and not spend more than 200 dollars for the vet? It's just a feral, who would give a damn on it? Only me?
> 
> My hobby it's selfish in one way, but that doesn't make it inhumane.
> It's not for the money or for the fun of it. Pigeons are feeding my soul, therefore i do not consider it a hobby.
> ...


I think you need to cool down. There is far more to pigeon keeping YOU need to SEE before you set judgement.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

It's called pigeon forum. Its not all about saving pigeons or racing pigeons it's all about pigeons. Anything about pigeons saving them to racing them. Controlling them so we dont get bad raps to saving them when they are hurt.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

re lee said:


> I think you need to cool down. There is far more to pigeon keeping YOU need to SEE before you set judgement.


Re Lee, i set no judgement on anyone! If i said something that hurts...well, then why would it hurt, if i am wrong...Everything i said, it's just my opinion. 

And i have "friends" that races pigeons, some have wonderful lofts while the others pigeons live in awful conditions, and most of them cull them (you don't need to think i talk in general) and when i asked them about my problem with my rescues they felt sorry for me having to spend money on vets so they just said: There's an easier way! Showed me the sign of breaking their neck. When i had the problem with my own pigeons with splayed leg ( i was irresponsible and did not have the knowledge i have now) , they said there's no way he will get his good legs back; i found this forum and despite the fact my pigeon was too old to ever think he will ever be able to walk normally, with help from members, he is does now.

As Tjc1 said it's about being responsible and not look for "that" easy way. And that's what this forum is for (i hope so). TJC1: IT'S FOR THE PIGEONS.

I am happy i read here on this thread that people that race are coming with ideas. Good ideas. It's about being responsible for their lives; from the moment they hatch, they get sick, until they are given away with or without money to a responsible owner.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Dima said:


> Pigeonfriends, upon you PM i posted an new thread in order to start a on line petition. It's still under approval by administrators on this site.
> 
> Where i live in Malton, Mississauga, the whole community is a pigeon lover. We have more than 250 ferals that are fed daily, especially by SouthAsian community. We just love them. I hope the ban won't go farther than Cornwall; because i will still rescue and feed them, even if i have to go to jail. As far for my pets, my pigeons are not to be released, if anyone try to get rid of them, yes, i will fight to death for them. That's how much price i put on them.
> 
> And as for the guy that parked his car in a place where it got covered in poops; that guy must be stupid or purposely did that. It's basics hygiene that people should be taught, if they have or not have pigeons.


Good, i felt bad for that old lady as she probably invested a lot in those birds. Importing feed from such a distance she went beyond her means to keep her birds healthy. If she lost to that bylaw then all her birds would be killed and homeless, it'd be tragic.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

As I mentioned before, racing pigeons are only hard to get rid of in the first few years when you start racing. This is because you don't really have a general idea of what your breeding and what your flying and who your tops pairs are and which ones aren't meeting your requirements. During these years pigeons may sometimes need to be given away. But after a few years, some birds can also be held back for becoming foster parents. You can just simply use them as pumpers for your quality stock. Put the eggs of better quality birds under them and get more quality birds in return.

If I use this option (if I were to do it) I would only select the best birds (breeding or flying records - the best record birds). 

These foster parents in a sense could be used in the future for breeding purposes if you see something in a bird you particularly like. 

The issue once again remains, how many pumpers could one possibily keep? Space available and by law restrictions may restrict an individual from keeping so many extra birds. 

I guess it really needs to be accepted, that with racing pigeons essentially, you do produce a lot of extra birds if you want to be successful at it. No amount of money can make you winner. You have to constantly eliminate birds from the breeding system or the racing team if they are not performing well. Taking out these birds from the system will improve the quality of the loft in a sense.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Dima. The HURT that was said It hurts the hobby Not the person. When people Say as you did The hobby is inhumane/ Cruel to pigeons NOT much different then a pigeon SHOOT. That speaks bad about pigeon keeping. I guesss you missed what you said. We can go on and on And it would not help. ANd there are more then race birds. Show birds. performance birds. Birds MUST be selected. Even the best pigeon in the world one day has to be removed from a program as it has helped all it can.. If a person goes to a loft to buy birds The owner sell Birds that can help but those birds the owner can do with out. That is also Culling. Each year most lofts looks over the birds and looks at birds that do not fit the program. Or are no longer needed. It is selection.Other wise just keeping each and every bird Soon a person would have THOUSANDS of birds they do not need. And The hobby would not go any where. You like your pigeons as pets. Well others like theres to compete. Is that so wrong.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

re lee said:


> You like your pigeons as pets. Well others like theres to compete. Is that so wrong.


I started with 2 racing pigeons, which were a gift for my BF. I thought it would be fun. It was not fun for us, because we realized all that pigeons want is to be HOME. 
I do not condemn anyone who races pigeons As someone said on this thread, without pigeon clubs, there would be no food supply for the feral pigeons, which are fed daily in my town my people. So we coexist and have to accept the way it goes.

_"You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the *other pigeons owners cull* them...

*This Hobby it's inhumane *and selfish. Not too far from the hobby of shooting them."_

I didn't say that racing (competing) it's inhumane. The hobby of racing brings this sad part where at one point the pigeons have to be culled. It takes cold blood to cull them, so this hobby has the inhumane side of story. ( to cull (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Agriculture) to reduce the size of (a herd or flock) by killing a proportion of its members). One thing is to compete the pigeons and another thing is to " get rid of them".


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Culling does not mean simply twisting the neck of the bird but to remove the bird from the program (that is what is suppose and believe)

Now if we look at the bright side, there are many young fanciers who take benefit from it and start with there own birds and most importantly if no one give there birds how others will get "GOOD BLOODLINE" birds, with this sharing many get benefit


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dima said:


> I started with 2 racing pigeons, which were a gift for my BF. I thought it would be fun. It was not fun for us, because we realized all that pigeons want is to be HOME.
> I do not condemn anyone who races pigeons As someone said on this thread, without pigeon clubs, there would be no food supply for the feral pigeons, which are fed daily in my town my people. So we coexist and have to accept the way it goes.
> 
> _"You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the *other pigeons owners cull* them...
> ...



I agree with you, Dima.
One member even said that taking the unwanted pigeons far away...so far they couldn't find their way home is another way to *get rid of them*. 
Personally, I have been dealing with someone that did something similar...releasing nearly 400 pigeons into an environment with not even enough food for the ferals and little hope of survival.
I was thinking about this thread, when I woke up in the middle of the night, and as I lay awake thinking about some of the things keepers do to rid themselves of too many pigeons, it did occur to me that these actions are exactly why animal rights groups take issue with the sport.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Charis said:


> I agree with you, Dima.
> One member even said that taking the unwanted pigeons far away...so far they couldn't find their way home is another way to *get rid of them*.
> Personally, I have been dealing with someone that did something similar...releasing nearly 400 pigeons into an environment with not even enough food for the ferals and little hope of survival.
> I was thinking about this thread, when I woke up in the middle of the night, and as I lay awake thinking about some of the things keepers do to rid themselves of too many pigeons, it did occur to me that these actions are exactly why animal rights groups take issue with the sport.


I wouldn't go that far, At least releasing the birds there are a chance of survival. I never seen the Animal rights group do anything about the pest control industry. Pigeons being killed in a cruel inhuman way, the birds are left to die a slow painful death. To me it seems like majority of the animal rights group make money from donations rather then doing it as volunteer work. Pigeons being known as rats with wings get little to no attention. <--- the reason why they don't get no attention? because they will get a lot of hate helping out pigeons from majority of the people who live in the city, they rather get attention from cute animals like cats and dogs where it can get peoples emotional support and their $$$.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jha0xd3xOGg

I don't care if they kill the birds, but it annoys me that they would do it in such a fashion. I should know, someone shot one of my birds in the CROP, they don't die right away. They die a slow painful death. Some will survive for 3 days and slowly wilt away in the wild.

your labeling one person towards the hobby itself. Pigeon lovers owe it to pigeon racing, that people have an understanding for these birds. If it weren't for people who race pigeons, everyone will start rallying up to killing feral pigeons in the city. That's why i find nothing wrong with people having extra birds and getting more young children started in the sport, it saves the feral pigeons in the future. It's people who don't try to help the hobby get started that i think it's wrong that later these same people complain that they have their rights taken away by bylaws.

Why do you think majority of Europe made it Illegal to kill pigeons? while places like American and Canada makes it legal for anyone to kill pigeon as long as you get a license from City Council?

By the way I don't race pigeons, all of my birds are Fancy birds that can't fly for more then 5 seconds, my American show racer is 2lbs.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Charis said:


> I agree with you, Dima.
> One member even said that taking the unwanted pigeons far away...so far they couldn't find their way home is another way to *get rid of them*.


I was the one that mentioned this but its not something I support or have done myself. It is just something that I have heard of people doing to get rid of them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I agree with Dima as well, in the sense that breeding and discarding pigeons on the grounds of how much they are worth financially or how they look objectifies them . 

I'm sure many pigeon keepers who do this think they love their birds. But Love is not only a sentiment, it also an action. If you `feel' that you love your birds, but your actions put them in harms way, its not really love.

But speaking more broadly, I personally believe that all industries that derive money from animals , including welfare groups for that matter, run into these problems where the dollar is first, and animal welfare is second.

But maybe, like Pigeon friends said, we all need each other. I respect pigeon breeders and racers for their knowledge, and for keeping the country stocked with pigeon medicine and food. And I'm sure pigeon racers respect me too, for the way I steal their strays when they come to my yard hurt and broken,and give them a good life lol. Or something like that, lol.

Also, quite a few of the people I really like on this forum are racers and breeders, and I really like talking to them and learning from each other. I've learned a huge amount about pigeon husbandry from pigeon keepers, that has been beneficial to my birds..I'm very grateful for that.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

There is no question that if anyone wants to be successful at pigeon racing, they must do a lot of selective breeding.

Keep in mind that pigeon racing is expensive. You can be spending $1000 on average/below average birds or $1000 on exceptional birds. 99.9% of pigeon fanciers that want to be competitive will choose the latter. 

Due to the costs of pigeon racing, it is essentially a given that a lot of birds need to be taken out of the racing teams and breeding lofts in order to stay competitive or improve. There simply just isn't enough room, time, or money to look after each and every bird you produce in the breeding loft. 

There will be certain steps individuals take to eliminate the "bad quality birds". Some of these will be better than others, but it has to happen. Sure you can breed from say 6 of your best pairs instead of 20, but even those top 6 pairs of yours will produce birds which are not of high quality. The same could even be said about 1 pair. Not every single bird has what it takes to be on a race team or be used for breeding no matter how low the breeding pair numbers are kept. 

The only plausible solution I see, which can truly be considered "OK" in the minds of the majority, would be to give the birds to a new person. Don't charge them money for the birds, because they really aren't worth it and you know it. Give the birds to someone new, and hopefully they can find something good in them. 

But what happens when this new fancier gains more experience and starts breeding their own birds that are of higher quality? The cycle continues...

But what is the likelihood of this happening? Extremely low - since new people are just not interested in getting into the sport. Too much money required, time, responsibility, etc.

What we need to do is promote the sport. It's not done enough or at all in most parts of the world. I've said it before, but say we have a week selected in the year and call this day international pigeon promotion week or whatever. 

The goal would be to tell as many people about the sport as possible. Spread the word with in person demonstrations at public places/events, flyers, brochures, newspapers, radio, etc. Rough estimations:

Say 100 people from this website talked to/handed out information to 1000 people in that 1 week. Out of the 1000 people that were given some form of knowledge about the sport, it can be generally accepted that at least 50 people would be interested in learning more. Of the 50 at least 20 may look into it seriously. Out of the 20, 5 people may take up the sport.

So if you multiply 5 people by the 100 people on this site doing the promoting, that is 500 new pigeon fanciers. Seriously, there is something about raising and racing pigeons that make US do it. So whats to say, if people heard about it, there aren't more pigeon fanciers in hiding that don't really know about it, but may really like it? If people don't hear about it, we may never see any growth. How did most of us get into the sport? By hearing or seeing something about it from others.

Realistically, the solution is to find like minded people with a passion for something like pigeon racing, and I'm sure there are others out there. 

If I, being a Canadian born Indo-Canadian at the young age of 19 can be interested in pigeons, whats to say other people can't be interested in it? It can be argued that pigeon racing is a predominantly Caucasian sport to some extent. But like the world, pigeon racing is also getting very diverse. If we can get the word out to the diverse community, the numbers can increase. 

Even if a single racing club recruited 2 or 3 new people every year, the members of the racing club would truly be increased in a matter of years and the competition would be a lot healthier. 

This was just some food for your minds. We talk about the sport being on the decline, but we do nothing about it. With limited promotion, there is a chance things could get turned around and extra birds would be needed to help the new people out.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, its hard to say why pigeon racing is declining. But I most definitely won't be promoting it, as I find the sport cruel and irresponsible, at least in my country (Australia). Perhaps others feel the same way, in this day and age of animal welfare consciousness. Here, losses are very high, and the pigeon racing community is spreading the deadly PMV virus nationwide, out of selfish money grabbing, when they could have easily put a stop to it and saved millions of pigeon lives. I have about zero respect for the pigeon racing community in Australia because of this; they showed their true selfish colours.

But its a good point you raise, about the number of birds you care for, and the need to raise funds to justify their care. I can see how many pigeon racers couldn't afford to keep their birds just for the love of birds, unless there was money in it. So the benefit of the sport is many pigeons are given life, for some amount of time, that that would not have otherwise lived at all.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Bella_F said:


> Yes, its hard to say why pigeon racing is declining. But I most definitely won't be promoting it, as I find the sport cruel and irresponsible, at least in my country (Australia). Perhaps others feel the same way, in this day and age of animal welfare consciousness. Here, losses are very high, and the pigeon racing community is spreading the deadly PMV virus nationwide, out of selfish money grabbing, when they could have easily put a stop to it and saved millions of pigeon lives. I have about zero respect for the pigeon racing community in Australia because of this; they showed their true selfish colours.
> 
> But its a good point you raise, about the number of birds you care for, and the need to raise funds to justify their care. I can see how many pigeon racers couldn't afford to keep their birds just for the love of birds, unless there was money in it. So the benefit of the sport is many pigeons are given life, for some amount of time, that that would not have otherwise lived at all.


Here in the USA most every person who raises pigeon. From race birds, show birds Ect vaccinates There pigeons for PMV. And the PMV vaccine has been around since what about 1980 or 1981. Now people who do not vaccinate are more prone to getting pmv in there birds. If exposed. I am sure the race people in your country care enough for there birds to vaccinate. And most people who race, show ect. really do not make money from there pigeons. Sure some can make enough to BUY FEED. It is a hobby first. I would look more at the people who keep there birds say as pets and never vaccinate them. You would be surprised as to how some birds are kept and called pets. Where most lofts are kept rather well. Just as to how some people keep there dogs ect in bad conditions. Seems like several who have posted here HATE pigeon racing. And showing ECT. I would suggest some learn more about the hobbies in pigeons. And why we have what about 250 different breeds of pigeons . It is because people raised selected and help create those seperate breeds Through many years of breeding. Without the hobby There would even be less ferals. As the pigeon is not native to MOST countries


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

re lee...this thread is about too many pigeons, not how other pets are kept.

Personally, every thing I know about the sport...*I LEARNED HERE and it's horriflying*
Some do a great job and I'm not talking about those keepers when I say...most are clueless and keep their pigeons in horrible conditions...filthy lofts, not enough food or water, no vaccinations and not even basic medicines on hand. It is bad and I do *HATE* *the way those pigeons are kept.*
For the record..*.if there were indeed fewer ferals....that would be a blessing because they are persecuted daily and in horrible ways all over the word.*


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## Possum Fat (Mar 18, 2010)

Charis said:


> *You* are the smartest one of all!
> Do replace the eggs with fake ones though and let them go through the process of laying.


Thank you! I been called a lot of things, but smart wasn't any of them.

I sometimes replace with fake eggs, but most the time I just pull the eggs the day they are laid.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Using dogs as an example of how people keep their pets, its just an example. Kind of a good one because people go nuts when a dog is kept in horrible conditions. Maybe we put pigeons on the same common ground as all pets should be. Why jump on him about it. Kind of discouraging. To tell you the truth I had no idea what meds I needed for pigeons until I came onto this site. I had no meds on hand either. I had food, shelter, water and grit. Know I have a full medicine cabinet on hand. I learned by LISTENING , QUESTIONING and LEARNING.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Possum Fat said:


> Thank you! I been called a lot of things, but smart wasn't any of them.
> 
> *I sometimes replace with fake eggs, but most the time I just pull the eggs the day they are laid.*


I'll say you are brilliant if you replace the eggs with dummy ones. If you don't, the hens will be stressed and they need their body needs the rest and time to replace the calcium.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

tjc1 said:


> Using dogs as an example of how people keep their pets, its just an example. Kind of a good one because people go nuts when a dog is kept in horrible conditions. *Maybe we put pigeons on the same common ground as all pets should be.*
> 
> Good idea. I think we should.
> 
> ...


I really don't understand why one would acquire any animal without leaning about it first.It's not logical to me.
I'm glad you have a medicine kit. I hope you don't have need for it but if you do, you may not suffer the loss of any pigeons.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Charis said:


> I really don't understand why one would acquire any animal without leaning about it first.It's not logical to me.


I couldnt agree more. 
Its logical and I can understand when one finds an injured animal that one may know absolutely nothing about it but It never ceases to amaze me how many people arrive on this site as "newbies" to the so called "sport", who have had birds for a while and know absolutely nothing about their health/upkeep/breeding/safety etc. (or worse, maybe they do know but are not willing to entertain some things because of cost or time it takes up)
To be honest, the state of some of the lofts posted are in such a state that birds living feraly are probably safer, healthier and cleaner.
Lots of things are common sense, but that seems to go out the window if it involves too much effort or cash.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Yes, its hard to say why pigeon racing is declining. But I most definitely won't be promoting it, as I find the sport cruel and irresponsible, at least in my country (Australia). Perhaps others feel the same way, in this day and age of animal welfare consciousness. Here, losses are very high, and the pigeon racing community is spreading the deadly PMV virus nationwide, out of selfish money grabbing, when they could have easily put a stop to it and saved millions of pigeon lives. I have about zero respect for the pigeon racing community in Australia because of this; they showed their true selfish colours.
> 
> But its a good point you raise, about the number of birds you care for, and the need to raise funds to justify their care. I can see how many pigeon racers couldn't afford to keep their birds just for the love of birds, unless there was money in it. So the benefit of the sport is many pigeons are given life, for some amount of time, that that would not have otherwise lived at all.


To be fair, mathematically it doesn`t make sense that racing pigeons are used to earn money. I did research on how much money they spend on entry fee and the fact that only 1 person can win, lets say 200 people enter a race, 199 of the other people will be losing anywhere from 500$ to 2000$. I`m sure these people must have some brains to earn that kind of money to enter these races and know the risk is greater then the reward.

But when it comes to selling pigeons, I myself would never give a pigeon away for free due to dog trainers. Children maybe but i would never give an adult free birds unless im forced to.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I said I would suggest people learn more about the hobby i did not say anybodys NAME. Now with that aside. If a person keeps and breeds any of the breeds of pigeons They must get rid of some. Say a person breeds from 10 pair. times three rounds They should raise 50 to 60 young birds A season. If they Show there birds They keep and show the better show type. They also keep and breed from the better birds for breeding STOCK birds. Where often those birds may not be show birds But have what is needed to produce show birds. Then they sell Of give away The USEABLE BIRDS that means those birds can and WILL help others. Then they have the ones that can not. THE old pigeon peddler is a good outlet there. That person gets them for FREE. Sells and gives them to people At swap meets. And such. Performance birds Like rollers. Are done near the same. Race birds That is some different They are selected from the sky. Meaning you train them Then if you manage them right you select what you see as the better birds for racing. Some just send out every bird to the races. TODAYS time with so many BOPs they cause many a bird to never get home. As they are protected from a gone by time. Meaning there is less natural prey for them in todays world. But they must survive. The hobby itself is not cruel JUST the few that see less would think that. Best practice is breaking all pairs up seperating them So both cocks and hens can rest. Keeping them together year around a person Has to use dummy eggs. And often they will notice more health problems in the birds. Hens laying depleats the calcium. Stresses there body from laying and being driven by the cock bird. giving birds a nest to lay eggs but not wanting any young Is not a good idea. The ferals that roam often are less a problem to some if they are not fed by humans. As they learn to group at locations And with extra food they will breed more. Here in my area I would say there a few thousand ferals. But I have never really noticed them being fed. They have plenty of feed at the railroad tracks grain elevators ect. There used to be more but the BOPs have reduced them. And by not being fed they live in many different flocks. Which 1 keeps them healthyer. 2 gives less exposer to the place people complain as much about. So all around from lofts to the wild breeding can be regulated to a point. the hobby takes years to learn. And a life time to keep learning. Close your doors to one side and you learn only what you think you know. So many great people out there to learn from.


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## aulrich (Aug 14, 2012)

I'll catch heat for this, and you can blame my raised on a war time farm parents, but for myself, an animal does something for you, it's food or you leave it alone. If you going to do lots of breeding I personally think the most respectful thing is to utilize the bird, and yes I mean eat it.


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Charis I have learned a lot from listening to your words of wisdom about sick birds. You are very knowledgeable. But sometimes your replies can be very hurtful


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pigeonfriends said:


> To be fair, mathematically it doesn`t make sense that racing pigeons are used to earn money. I did research on how much money they spend on entry fee and the fact that only 1 person can win, lets say 200 people enter a race, 199 of the other people will be losing anywhere from 500$ to 2000$. I`m sure these people must have some brains to earn that kind of money to enter these races and know the risk is greater then the reward.


I agree that you wouldn't see a lot of money in it in most cases. Which makes it all the sadder that the priority with pigeon racing is not to give these birds a good life, but rather to train them to win races, knowing most will be lost and die in races, and never win much money. The rest will mostly be culled when they fail to perform, or cannot breed performers. All for money that never really comes. 

These are my personal feelings about pigeon racing, that's not to say I don't like you guys , or can't appreciate the birds you produce, or the knowledge you have to share. And I also appreciate that you love being around pigeons, like me. I just wouldn't get into the sport or promote the sport myself.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Hi Bella!

What I feel here is that we are accusing others and that will no help anyone, may be the animal rights activists will dig something out from it but nothing else

I guess there are many bad factors present in every sort of game not only pigeon racing and we all know it very well there is nothing hidden but my point is that the thread was about “too many pigeons”, now if the experienced people have discussed it positively here without accusing anyone it would be much of a help which I don’t feel it right now, in my experience every single post on this forum is read by 10 people, this thread has around 60 posts which means it is already read by 600 people or even more, what image these 600 people have got about the pigeon keepers or the sport or the people present on this forum till now, I think it would not be nice but horrible, hope its not intentional 

Now IMHO if we educate people we get better results rather than blaming someone and thats what sensible people do, Oh BTW I just had breakfast and I ate chicken …..Hope you people don’t mind because it’s a pigeon forum not chicken .....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Pijlover! 

I suppose because my opinions are from the carer/pigeon welfare POV, I didn't find anything written on this thread over the top. Its probably the case that people who use birds for food/sport/money or whatever will not see eye to eye with pigeon carers. But neither side should have to be quiet , I think. 

I guess for me, I can disagree with others and still feel respect and friendship.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

""Why do you think majority of Europe made it Illegal to kill pigeons? while places like American and Canada makes it legal for anyone to kill pigeon as long as you get a license from City Council?"

It was not due to the pigeon racing industry in Europe that the majority of Europe has now made it Illegal to kill feral pigeons. It was due to the tireless efforts of Pigeon Advocacy groups petitioning the highest courts in the land for the rights of protection of and right to life on behalf of the feral - that it should be considered a "national treasure," and deserves the right to our protection and care that made it illegal to now kill ferals, Also, the efforts of PiCAS, UK to educate cities in Europe such as Basil, Sweden and cities in Germany to the effectiveness of return of dove-coting and pigeon parks that has finally caused the tide of prejudice to change in favour of pigeon protection. Not the Pigeon Racing Industry. I am sorry to say, that here in Vancouver, Canada, when I tried to get some assistance from the Pigeon Racing clubs here for ferals, as was stated earlier by someone else, they refused any assistance for ferals. If in any other breeding/racing sport one were to kill the animal "hands on" simply because it did not meet "breeding standards", such as wring the neck of a dog that did not stack up or shoot in the head a race horse that lost a race, would that not be considered "inhumane?" The pigeon is a living being, and has a right to life. Who made this rule losers die, winners fly??


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Bella I respect your opinions and all the others writing on this forum

If you do something good it does not give you the right to accuse others who are unaware of it, that is my point

When I joined this forum I already had pigeons but I was unaware of the medications or you can say knew very little about my birds but being here and reading talking to people I have learnt a lot though there is still plenty more to grasp and that is all because of the positive attitude of the people present on this forum

What I feel is that when I am in a position to treat my birds better through the interaction of experienced people I don’t find myself obliged at all to call my neighbors a killer, inhumane and a sinner because he doesn’t treat his birds as well as I do or I care for, I think no but I have to be more responsible in telling those people that their birds have to be cared more which they need 

Now with most of these posts I am getting that all or most of the racing people are killers because they cull the unwanted, I feel myself in the list of those racing people because I cull my birds too (hate me or whatever you like to do) but I do that in a very positive way, I know where those of my birds are and how they are taken care of, I simply gift it to some of my friends or newbie who can take care of them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry I upset you Pijlover! 



Pijlover said:


> If you do something good it does not give you the right to accuse others who are unaware of it, that is my point


I think I agree with you, but I am not sure why you think I was having a go at inexperienced pigeon keepers? I am inexperienced myself, and I consider myself to have years of learning ahead of me. 



> When I joined this forum I already had pigeons but I was unaware of the medications or you can say knew very little about my birds but being here and reading talking to people I have learnt a lot though there is still plenty more to grasp and that is all because of the positive attitude of the people present on this forum


Are you referring to the comment that was made by someone else, about how only experienced and knowledgeable people should have pigeons? If so I don't necessarily agree with that comment, and I wasn't the person who wrote it. 



> What I feel is that when I am in a position to treat my birds better through the interaction of experienced people I don’t find myself obliged at all to call my neighbors a killer, inhumane and a sinner because he doesn’t treat his birds as well as I do or I care for, I think no but I have to be more responsible in telling those people that their birds have to be cared more which they need


 I feel that many pigeons racers and breeders care for their birds better than I do- their setups are very large and professional and they have some really nice lofts! I also have compassion for people who don't have these expensive setups. I don't think people need to be perfect, they only need to do their best and keep learning. 

Pijlover, Overall I believe you may be blending two different arguments that were made by different people into one- but I agree only with one argument, and one I don't. 

-The argument I agree with is that using pigeons for sport has some elements of cruelty towards pigeons. If you've ever nursed a starving & broken stray racing pigeon like I have several times, you'll understand what these birds go through isn't humane. I believe this is not an accusation, but a fact of the sport. I don't mean it to be accusatory, just factual. I would be more ok with it if the losses were not so bad, but as I understand it, people who race pigeons are prepared to lose most of their team and they will still do this over and over, knowing they will be lost. That's the part I call inhumane, not the actual loft conditions or the learning curve someone goes through trying to care for their birds.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

spiritflys said:


> ""Why do you think majority of Europe made it Illegal to kill pigeons? while places like American and Canada makes it legal for anyone to kill pigeon as long as you get a license from City Council?"
> 
> It was not due to the pigeon racing industry in Europe that the majority of Europe has now made it Illegal to kill feral pigeons. It was due to the tireless efforts of Pigeon Advocacy groups petitioning the highest courts in the land for the rights of protection of and right to life on behalf of the feral - that it should be considered a "national treasure," and deserves the right to our protection and care that made it illegal to now kill ferals, Also, the efforts of PiCAS, UK to educate cities in Europe such as Basil, Sweden and cities in Germany to the effectiveness of return of dove-coting and pigeon parks that has finally caused the tide of prejudice to change in favour of pigeon protection. Not the Pigeon Racing Industry. I am sorry to say, that here in Vancouver, Canada, when I tried to get some assistance from the Pigeon Racing clubs here for ferals, as was stated earlier by someone else, they refused any assistance for ferals. If in any other breeding/racing sport one were to kill the animal "hands on" simply because it did not meet "breeding standards", such as wring the neck of a dog that did not stack up or shoot in the head a race horse that lost a race, would that not be considered "inhumane?" The pigeon is a living being, and has a right to life. Who made this rule losers die, winners fly??


So why no such thing is done in Canada or America? but instead as long as it's an evasive species it's legal to kill. Is it because of the cultural difference that one country veiws it as rats with wings while Europeans don't think so because of the popularity of racing pigeons? I can assure you that rats get killed daily with mouse traps without a second thought, it's a cultural difference. If people here in Canada correlate pigeons with rats i can assure you that they will kill it without a second thought.

Also are you a member of Canadian racing assiocation? if you are it's not because they are feral that they won't help, they would only help areas where most of their members reside otherwise they feel that it's pointless. I joined both the Canadian racing and Fancy Assiocation because they offer Bylaw protection.

http://www.crpu.ca/about-us/constitution-rules/


Any member may be suspended from membership with the CRPU upon failure to pay his or her annual CRPU membership fees hereunder mentioned, promptly when due, upon resolution of the Membership Committee of the CRPU; or

Any member may be suspended from the membership of the CRPU, other than for the non payment of membership fees upon resolution of the Membership Committee for:

i. Falsifying, misrepresenting or omitting required information on an application to join the membership of the CRPU.

*ii. Causing any act to a racing pigeon which in the opinion of the Membership Committee could be deemed as an act of cruelty.*

iii. Disturbing the peace at a properly constituted CRPU meeting.

iv. Showing disrespect by action, word or deed that would bring the sport of racing pigeons in Canada into disrepute.

v. Cheating.

vi. For any other reason that may bring the CRPU or the sport of racing pigeons in Canada into disrepute.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

spiritflys said:


> ""Why do you think majority of Europe made it Illegal to kill pigeons? while places like American and Canada makes it legal for anyone to kill pigeon as long as you get a license from City Council?"
> 
> It was not due to the pigeon racing industry in Europe that the majority of Europe has now made it Illegal to kill feral pigeons. It was due to the tireless efforts of Pigeon Advocacy groups petitioning the highest courts in the land for the rights of protection of and right to life on behalf of the feral - that it should be considered a "national treasure," and deserves the right to our protection and care that made it illegal to now kill ferals, Also, the efforts of PiCAS, UK to educate cities in Europe such as Basil, Sweden and cities in Germany to the effectiveness of return of dove-coting and pigeon parks that has finally caused the tide of prejudice to change in favour of pigeon protection. Not the Pigeon Racing Industry. I am sorry to say, that here in Vancouver, Canada, when I tried to get some assistance from the Pigeon Racing clubs here for ferals, as was stated earlier by someone else, they refused any assistance for ferals. If in any other breeding/racing sport one were to kill the animal "hands on" simply because it did not meet "breeding standards", such as wring the neck of a dog that did not stack up or shoot in the head a race horse that lost a race, would that not be considered "inhumane?" The pigeon is a living being, and has a right to life. Who made this rule losers die, winners fly??



Also i don't think it's realistic what you just said about the Assiocations in Canada, I talked to the former president of the Canadian Fancier Assiocation and he's actively trying to change the publics idea of dieases being transfered to humans, a big misconception is Avian Flu. He's doing everything he can when he was president including hiring lawyers to deal with this problem. 

Even now that he's no longer president he still tries to convince the public and airports that Avian flu is just the flu virus adapting to a bird host. 

I have no idea where you get the idea that they won't help. just convincing the public that were two different species alone and the fact that they can't harm us ,does alot for the feral pigeons.

Of course you won't get any help from the local clubs, you do know your putting them on a roast? because if they stuck up for the feral pigeons, your putting their pets in danger of being taken away, no local club wants to be in the spot lights relating to the publics misconception of diease ridden creatures. If you want help, ask the big assiocations where people are annoymously protected, and let the president stand up for you instead.

Also as long as racing pigeons exist and are roaming the streets, feral pigeons are protected because the pest control industry have to think twice before shooting a bird since its illegal to kill someones pet, that can get you 12 years in jail.

http://www.editionap.ca/fr/node/526

Mike van der Jagt, pulled money out of his own pocket to fly to Ottawa to stand up for pigeon fanciers, he's also a past president of Canadian racing assiocation. If this is all just about money why should he care if someone loses their pets and have 3 months to get rid of 200 pigeons that they import food from Belgium to feed? less competition for him. Oh by the way, if you don't get rid of your birds in 3 months and obey the new Bylaw, your pigeons will be killed by the Animal Control Officer or RCMP if their local area don't specialize.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1290982--cornwall-s-pigeon-ban-angers-bird-lovers

“Domestic pigeons have a very low survival rate in the wild and do nothing to contribute to the populations of wild pigeons roosting on ledges in downtown cities,” said Mike van der Jagt, the past president of the Canadian Racing Pigeon Union, speaking on behalf of a lobby of pigeon owners and associations, in his deputation to council last week.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Local+Shows/Ontario/Ottawa+Morning/ID/2306787870/?sort=MostPopular

Even the news reporters say that people are taking advantage of the misconception to get rid of pigeons.Beggers can't be choosers, if they don't want feral pigeons nesting on their roofs then invest in spikes to stop them from roosting on your property.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pigeonfriends said:


> Of course you won't get any help from the local clubs, you do know your putting them on a roast? because if they stuck up for the feral pigeons, your putting their pets in danger of being taken away, no local club wants to be in the spot lights relating to the publics misconception of diease ridden creatures. If you want help, ask the big assiocations where people are annoymously protected, and let the president stand up for you instead.
> 
> .


Thanks for explaining that Pigeonfriends. I did wonder why Pigeon racing groups here sometimes say in the news that their pigeons aren't the same species as feral pigeons.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> Thanks for explaining that Pigeonfriends. I did wonder why Pigeon racing groups here sometimes say in the news that their pigeons aren't the same species as feral pigeons.


News reporters tend to reword things wrongly, It's called Yellow Journalism to spice things up. The pigeon owners obviously know it's the same species they probably told them it's a different breed.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/11/27/cornwall-spares-pigeon-keepers--for-now

Also can anyone tell me why no animal lover assiocation is standing up for these people? Because their birds are gunna be put down, if they can not find a home for them in time all 200 racing pigeons will die. the Animal Control Officer will put them down once they seize them, it's a do or die situation and only the pigeon assiocations seem to be standing up for them, why?

Oh did i mention how hard it would be to find home for those birds, if they lose to this bylaw, because everyone will think it's hopeless to keep these birds cause it will be taken away anyways or they must be diease ridden.In their mind they must be bad for your health if the City Council think so too. alot of followers out their trust authority mindlessly.

Coun. Gerald Samson was the only one who voted against the deferral; he said he’s heard enough complaints from residents to support immediate restrictions on the birds.

“It’s very dangerous,” he said.

^^^^ 

I believe this is Cultural Brain Washing. You can try to to get as many Assiocations to help stall the inevitable, but as long as the majority thinks pigeons are dangerous their isn't a single thing you can do, majority wins.

So i don't believe it's because of some animal rights group that made Europe different from Canada or America, i find it very hard to believe.

But what these Assiocations are doing right, is that they they are nipping the root of the problem at Ottawa the Capital of Canada. if news have it that they don't allow pigeons to be kept in Ottawa the rest of Canada will fallow like mindless sheep. Also this will make the stereotype of pigeons all the more apparent with the things said in these news reports, a lot of people only listen to *KEY* words.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Dima said:


> You know..the sad part is, that most of us rescue ferals and spend their time and money for vet, while the other pigeons owners cull them...
> 
> *This Hobby it's inhumane and selfish*. Not too far from the hobby of shooting them.


 Once upon a time, I would have defended the pigeon keeping hobby, be it for showing, racing, or just flying around the house. But, *at least on some level I have to agree with you.* 

If one looks at it from a certain perspective, the human is the #1 predator to ever walk the earth. And when you look at all of the animals that humans keep for one reason or another, there are far too many examples of inhumane and selfish treatment. 

How many of us have taken a visit to the local human society ? Our local SPCA in York, Pa. kills over 50 cats a week, and half as many dogs. It is sad, sickening, and I every time I leave, I sort of hate humans that would do the things they do. The crime of these poor animals ? They ended up in the care of dumb azz humans. And for everyone "humanly" killed at the local SPCA, how many endure nightmarish conditions ? And yet, we accept this, and no one calls for the end of keeping dogs and cats as "pets". 

Then many of us sat down to a thanksgiving dinner, and what did we eat ? What kind of life, did that poor turkey have before we ate them ? Yet, how many of us are willing to give up eating meat ? And those chicken eggs sitting in the refrigerator ? What kind of life, are the hens which laid those eggs, what is their "quality of life". And no doubt, the farmer who produced those eggs, is doing it, "just for the money". We could move on to how the hog has lived, that some of us will eat at Christmas dinner as well, or any farm animal for that matter.

No, one has to agree with you, on some level, that man is no friend of animals. Even those who cherry pick what animals they "like" and try to help, at same time, they contribute to animal's inhumane treatment by eating them, and wearing their parts as clothes, or shoes. And for women who wear makeup, how many poor rabbits had their eyes burned out, "testing" makeup products to insure safety for human eyes ?

Come up with any animal for the benefit or amusement of humans, and an example is there, where animals must endure treatment that if we think about it, it is hard to feel real good about it. 

So yes, on at least some level, I must agree with you. Which is why in recent months, I have taken the step of attempting to become a vegetarian. My motivation I confess, was not to benefit animals but myself. Since giving up animal protein in favor of plant protein, my blood pressure has come down so far that I no longer require medication. I am at this moment about 70 pounds lighter then just since July 1st, as I have attempted to avoid dairy, poultry, and various other animals as food. 

In the big scheme of things, I don't know what impact if any, it has made, other then I sleep better at night. I "blame" this move in part, because I made the mistake of watching one to many You Tube PETA type undercover videos. This is the contribution I make, as penitence for keeping pigeons for my own amusement. 

The paradox is if every pigeon fancier accepted your thoughts, and acted on them, is millions of pigeons would thus be homeless. And there would no longer be a market for the host of pigeon products you and I use to care for sick or injured birds. So the net result would be the disappearance of millions of pigeons from this planet. Hundreds of breeds would become extinct. 

From my perspective, just like some Zoos, I feel obligated to try to preserve this life form which has evolved as a result of man. Extinction is forever, and in my mind, allowing that to happen would be inhumane as well.

So, what is one with pigeons now in their back yards suppose to do ? I suggest that in a gentle way, we encourage more humane treatment by those who keep pigeons. This might be more effective, then simply labeling pigeon fanciers as "inhumane" generally speaking. To do so, places one in their minds, into the category of "animal rights wackos", or in other words, they won't hear a thing you are saying, and will treat you as an enemy of the hobby. Not the best way to influence people to your way of thinking. 

IMHO, the goal should not be to eliminate pigeon fanciers or pigeon racers, but a more humane environment. Just like outlawing the keeping of dogs and cats would be ineffective, in terms of insuring humane treatment for them. The more effective action, might just be education and awareness.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Once upon a time, I would have defended the pigeon keeping hobby, be it for showing, racing, or just flying around the house. But, *at least on some level I have to agree with you.*
> 
> If one looks at it from a certain perspective, the human is the #1 predator to ever walk the earth. And when you look at all of the animals that humans keep for one reason or another, there are far too many examples of inhumane and selfish treatment.
> 
> ...



In the end that doesn't even matter, nature is by far more cruel, and being Vegan doesn't mean your not killing animals.

That's why they say it's skeptical that Vegans and their theory of not killing any animals is just that, a theory. Research has shown unless you buy from Local Farmers Markets your actually killing way more animals then someone who eats meat. Reason being is that companies cultivate land which thousands of species live in, then use that land to grow plants. They mass produce Vegetables and sell it all across the world. So buying from grocery stores your entertaining the idea of animals having their habitat taken away from them, and Big companies smell money from this.

This means that your not even lowering your carbon foot print unless your buying from Local Farmer Markets because they don't ship in their produce.

So being Vegan means you kill way more animals then being a meat eater unless you eat from local farmers market.


This is why i don't try to be Self Righteous, however I don't believe in killing something that did no wrong. The birds are not a carrier of disease that are dangerous to humans, before i started raising pigeons, i would have agree to killing of pigeons.

Parasites,Bacteria,Viruses, Cock roach, rats, are killed on a daily basis and yet their living creatures. No one stands up for them because they cause us harm, and in this world survival is king, its me or them. As i said before pigeons do us no harm. This is why i can't be a soldier i can't kill something that never did me wrong.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Pigeonfriends - have to admit that your post gave me a lot to think about. I had never thought of the "harm" that's done just staying alive, whether as a Vegan, or meat eater. So there really is no good way to be entirely animal friendly. Thank you for this perspective, but I'm not sure my old man's mind can totally grasp this concept. 

I guess it's never to late to learn something new, even if it is mind boggling.

Dave


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As IT was said to me THIS THREAD IS ABOUT TO MANY PIGEONS. And it has gone nothing but down hill. Yes down hill. Some are using this thread to advance there cause. And others like myself to try and explain the hobby. and how pigeon have been raised by most. I do see It is time to either get back on track or close this thread. As No way the pros and cons have BALANCE here. So If you can not suggest ways to control your pigeon population. Then NO need to post the negitive thoughts.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

re lee said:


> As IT was said to me THIS THREAD IS ABOUT TO MANY PIGEONS. And it has gone nothing but down hill. Yes down hill. Some are using this thread to advance there cause. And others like myself to try and explain the hobby. and how pigeon have been raised by most. I do see It is time to either get back on track or close this thread. As No way the pros and cons have BALANCE here. So If you can not suggest ways to control your pigeon population. Then NO need to post the negitive thoughts.


The person who made this thread ask the opinion of others whether he would enjoy the hobby more if he were to only keep a few pairs instead of many.

but never did he say his population is out of control, he only wanted thought provoking ideas. For all we know he could have multiple lofts that can contain the number of birds he mentioned.

I didn't think anything on this thread were negative at all,everyone has their own moral stand on things, but there is a fine line to being worried and self righteous. 

We are human and are not perfect, the truth is when it comes to managing pets people are doing a pretty good job. There are around 50 million Americans without Health insurance and can't afford to take their kids to see a doctor or buy medicine.

But am i going to tell them that they don't deserve to have children because they are going through hard times? Maybe some of these people on this forum recently lost their jobs ,and still have their pets but only have enough money to feed them and not provide the ideal life.

Were not recovered from the Recession at 2008 and were going to have another one in 2012, many people will lose jobs and no one is safe. How this world works isn't cut in stone.

i would never judge a homeless man on the streets without hearing their story. Through telling the truth maybe people will understand. Anyways i watched Smithsfamilylofts video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16HoxelCeNY

what i understand is this man right here lost his job and needs money to build his roof. I also know a friend who inherited his pigeons from his grandfathers death, and would never sell their pigeons, he works two jobs just to raise his family and his birds. He knows nothing about racing pigeons but because it's the only thing he got to remember his grandfather with, he isn't going to let it go.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

re lee - you are right, sorry.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeonfriends said:


> In the end that doesn't even matter, nature is by far more cruel, and *being Vegan doesn't mean your not killing animals*.
> 
> That's why they say it's skeptical that Vegans and their theory of not killing any animals is just that, a theory. Research has shown unless you buy from Local Farmers Markets your actually killing way more animals then someone who eats meat. Reason being is that companies cultivate land which thousands of species live in, then use that land to grow plants. They mass produce Vegetables and sell it all across the world. So buying from grocery stores your entertaining the idea of animals having their habitat taken away from them, and Big companies smell money from this.
> 
> ...


 I have to agree with you, in that it is impossible not to impact the animal world by our mere existence. I could walk down the street and step on an ant, and my body kills off millions of life forms I suspect every day. And if I buy from a local farmer, he might eat meat, so I am indirectly supporting the death of life forms by supporting a human. 

Follow this line of thinking to it's conclusion, and it means if someone is truly an animal lover, then the best thing they could do, would be to die, and thus limit their impact on the animal kingdom. Removing the human animal from the planet, would most likely be best for all the other life forms. 

The problem with that thinking however, is it means that the human specie must be "culled" from the planet. And I am not at that place yet, where I can put the welfare of animals above my fellow humans, even if they pose the most danger to our well being. 

It is somewhat of a paradox however, in that if one truly wants to save the various life forms, then they should destroy not only themselves, but all of man kind. This is of course, what some people believe. Far as I know, we are the only specie on the earth, which actually commits suicide. I know of no other life form on the earth that does that. 

Which sort of takes us way off topic, but this extreme view does exist out there. As well as people who are sanctimonious about not eating meat, or who want to deny others from using animals for a variety of purposes that conform to their sense of "justice". In the end, all life forms which ever walked, crawled, flew or swan, etc. met, or will meet, the same fate that Mother Nature has for all of us. For in her cruel and vindictive manner, she has condemned us all to certain death.

I myself, have become Vegan, not because I am "saving" animals, but because it is much more healthier. So my motivation has been a purely selfish one. And like a lot of people, I am sickened when I see an animal suffering of any type. I am also affected the same way with humans. And I guess, push comes to shove, I am going to side with people over animals almost without exception, every time. Not because I always prefer people over animals, as sometimes I agree that certain humans should be put to death. 

When placed into context, the idea of keeping and racing pigeons, although for human entertainment. Is hardly as inhumane as what your typical farm animal must endure. So with that, I guess I will still keep and race my pigeons. And, in the context of this thread, I will control the population of my pigeons. And take great care as to not produce more then I can love and care for. As Re Lee is correct, the topic is "too many pigeons".


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I think the ultimate question is what should you do to pigeons when they are extra's and no one is new enough to take them in?

That, in my opinion, is the key question that relates to the op.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Revolution Lofts said:


> I think the ultimate question is what should you do to pigeons when they are extra's and no one is new enough to take them in?
> 
> That, in my opinion, is the key question that relates to the op.


 And there is an answer to that question, but it is one that I am unable and unwilling to answer on this forum. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f9/forum-rules-of-conduct-7006.html

The "problem" is not unlike that facing dogs. There are professional breeders who breed for very specific purposes, to enhance and improve a breed. And then there are the puppy mills and every idiot out there breeding their dogs. The result is huge number of unwanted animals. Which begs the question, why were they produced in the first place ?

Same thing with pigeons. You have the "professional" breeders, and then you have those who get some pigeons "for fun", and what is the first thing they want to do ? Breed them. Not unlike people who in a thousand different cities, who breed their dogs "for fun", especially pit bulls. #1 resident at our local humane society. 

I personally don't have any such thing as "extra" or "spare" birds. Only the number needed are produced for the race teams, and those at the end of the racing season are highly sought after. If they here at end of racing season, they will have a home. Many on this site, are not in such a circumstance, which means they really should not be breeding pigeons unless they plan on providing for them for maybe the next 20 years. 

So in a paradoxical way, new folks find this site, and the first thing we do is dispense help on how to reproduce more. Then of course, at some point, after they have pigeons coming out their ears, and they ask a perfectly normal question like "what do I do with extras" and we have no intelligent answer. 

The only feeble answer that I can provide, is everyone who is actively breeding pigeons should produce fewer pigeons which fill your needs. And many others should avoid the process of breeding pigeons altogether, until they consider what they will do when they find themselves in situation of having more pigeons then healthy space to keep them.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

Point well taken warren, I think I still have a lot to learn in the hobby

Same thing was said earlier and it had opposite effect as I felt offended though everything was factual may be its the way things are said, I am not pointing at anyone and neither my previous posts were, I was talking in general as I am doing right now.

What I like on this forum is its diversity there are different people from different countries and of different thoughts, and it’s the best place to educate people on how to treat their birds

I have to admit that previously like 2 years back I was breeding carelessly but due to learning I have curtail it to 1/3rd only and I am going to plan better from now on (Hope I am not getting off track now)…


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Pigeonfriends said:


> That's why they say it's skeptical that Vegans and their theory of not killing any animals is just that, a theory. Research has shown unless you buy from Local Farmers Markets your actually killing way more animals then someone who eats meat.


Hi Pigeonfriends,

I eat both meat and plants and I am aware of the harm it causes. I don't expect people who know about the devastation to the environment due to crop production, or the cruelty in chicken farms, to be quiet about it. Why should they? They are entitled to have a hissy fit about it they want, and frankly their arguments have a lot of truth to them. Maybe all the noise they make will make slaughter houses less horrible and crop production less devastating. Maybe it pushes science ahead. 

Similarly, I don't see why a pigeon racer or breeder can't embrace the inhumane aspects of the sport? Why pretend it isnt there and get so angry at people who point it out? Its there. Some things about it are inhumane and cruel. And people will say so. 

Maybe awareness of these proiblems has a benefit, such as racing meet organiser choosing safer routes for the pigeons, so less of them die? Maybe if more people knew about racing strays, more would be collected and saved from starvation. etc.? And like someone mentioned earlier, maybe more people would be willing to rehome unwanted pigeons? (I know, it seems like a long shot , but who knows?)


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> And there is an answer to that question, but it is one that I am unable and unwilling to answer on this forum.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f9/forum-rules-of-conduct-7006.html
> 
> ...



Warren, the issue is that a majority, and I'm talking 99% of pigeon fanciers, for the first few years of pigeon racing or show birds, have no clue as to what the birds they have will produce for them as far as racing quality or show quality goes. As a result, you end up producing a lot of below average or borderline average birds.

Not everyone has the funds available to invest in high quality birds out of the blue/at the start of their racing careers. Most often, you are given "misfits" from an individual or numerous people that might have 1 or 2 "good" pigeons in the group of 20 that might be able to help you but you can ONLY find out if they are any good if you breed them and fly their young. Eye sign, wing sign, any other sign are just a whole lot of BS in my opinion. The basket is the only true test that can determine whether the pair produces good birds or bad birds.

So as a result, the first few years of a pigeon fanciers racing career, you end up producing a lot of "extra" young birds. After 2 or 3 years time however, the fancier should have a general idea of what they have in their breeders to determine which ones to keep and which ones to not keep. If you keep ONLY the best breeders, and then bring in a pair 1 at a time from outside, you can decrease the chances of breeding inferior quality birds.

Key word is DECREASE, not eliminate. No one can never say 100% of the birds they produce are superior quality birds. Even the legends of pigeon racing produced birds that weren't any good for racing or breeding. It's kind of a given, if you produce 30 ybs this year, not every single one of those birds will be racing or breeding quality.

So there is a little bit of irresponsibility on the part of the fanciers (not cutting down and selecting your best breeders in hope to produce more quality ybs) but evidently, you will produce ybs that aren't of high quality. 

The question still remains, what to do with these birds?

Use them as foster parents, give them to a new guy, or sell them off are the only humane options I can think of.


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## Doveman1 (Dec 10, 2012)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Once upon a time, I would have defended the pigeon keeping hobby, be it for showing, racing, or just flying around the house. But, *at least on some level I have to agree with you.*
> 
> If one looks at it from a certain perspective, the human is the #1 predator to ever walk the earth. And when you look at all of the animals that humans keep for one reason or another, there are far too many examples of inhumane and selfish treatment.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you. I myself and an animal lover, but I realize hunting has its place. It contributes far more funds to preserve wildlife through the fees then anyone who says saves the animals but thats all the do..is talk. Hunting is centered around the overpopulation of animals. so that they do not starve. Being a vegetarian doesn't necessarily end their suffering either as too many farms get rid of their habitats. This is why I am a happy omnivore. I myself have lost 75 lbs from a proper diet where I just balanced things out. I do not like PETA they are hypocrites. Look it up they kill 96% of the animals they get claiming that they are 
"only the ones no one wants" They don't even contribute to anything for reforestation, or preservation of animals habitats, just their stupid ads. but i respect your opinion and wanted to inform you of this so you don't get roped in and realize later how cruel PETA really is..


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pijlover said:


> Point well taken warren, I think I still have a lot to learn in the hobby
> 
> Same thing was said earlier and it had opposite effect as I felt offended though everything was factual may be its the way things are said, I am not pointing at anyone and neither my previous posts were, I was talking in general as I am doing right now.
> 
> ...


 Yes each country Has its followers in pigeons. So much history about pigeons and man. Raising pigeons Say to a standard has a goal. As raising pigeons for racing has a goal. Mating in first done in your minds EYE. when you use a plan. This can start months before birds are set down to be paired. Setting an idea on how many to raise In a given year. Which still it takes more birds being raised to fing the better ones each year. That is just a fact. And in some countries Some breeds are harder to find Where here in the USA most all breeds are to be found. And the types of feed and meds also become different. I used to set out to raise from 50 to 100 birds each year. And kept few some years just 1 or 2. Because I had in mind what I needed and what I did not. I could find homes for every bird. And gave many away. But not many people stay with pigeons Just the select few. I Have helped several get there start to only see in a short time they gave up. The hobby is dropping in all parts of the world Has been for many years. And more then not in 50 years much of the hobby will go away. There will be the few. And they will still practice breeding for select birds. As this is the only way to keep the hobby strong. As pigeons not selected revert backwards never forward. Because each breed is still a step away from its wild type NATURES design.


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## likebirds (Oct 22, 2012)

Smith family lofts and Pigeonfriends, I just wanted to tell you both that I really enjoyed both of your input. I once heard it said that in order to rid the world of hate that we must first rid the world of all love.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

I always thought if we were to use the unwanted birds for food that it would be ok and even help feed the homeless but then it was pointed out to me that many breeders give their birds meds and that they wouldnt be safe to eat.


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## Pijlover (May 5, 2010)

re lee said:


> Yes each country Has its followers in pigeons. So much history about pigeons and man. Raising pigeons Say to a standard has a goal. As raising pigeons for racing has a goal. Mating in first done in your minds EYE. when you use a plan. This can start months before birds are set down to be paired. Setting an idea on how many to raise In a given year. Which still it takes more birds being raised to fing the better ones each year. That is just a fact. And in some countries Some breeds are harder to find Where here in the USA most all breeds are to be found. And the types of feed and meds also become different. I used to set out to raise from 50 to 100 birds each year. And kept few some years just 1 or 2. Because I had in mind what I needed and what I did not. I could find homes for every bird. And gave many away. But not many people stay with pigeons Just the select few. I Have helped several get there start to only see in a short time they gave up. The hobby is dropping in all parts of the world Has been for many years. And more then not in 50 years much of the hobby will go away. There will be the few. And they will still practice breeding for select birds. As this is the only way to keep the hobby strong. As pigeons not selected revert backwards never forward. Because each breed is still a step away from its wild type NATURES design.


Thanks Ree Lee

I think the first thing that needs to be adopted is a GOOD PLAN because with only that you have none or least extra birds, that you will think of “what to do with these birds”.

I have planned it already and the pairs are in my mind, It’s just that it will take some time to wake my minds EYE...


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## Doveman1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Yeah I've been into pigeons ever since the pigeon man episode of hey arnold as a little kid. Then I forgot about them. You don't see many wild pigeons here where i live. Then I got a pet cockatiel and let it fly in my room. I got sad that i knew she couldn't fly outside. So I got back into reading about homing pigeons. I want to prepare myself for the day i finally am able to have a loft. To me its not about medals or awards from racing. I love how ..you get to see them fly free and happily in the air, but they always come back. my plan is to get white homing pigeons and use them in a dove release. That way I will have money to pay for not only the food but the meds so my flock doesn't get sick. I think racing is cool, but I wouldn't care if my bird won or not. Maybe its one of those things i won't understand until i actually have them in a race and actually win them. Or maybe im turned off by the racing idea because of the documentaries I watched where the fanciers were over aggressive. I hope to keep the sport alive and one day even pass it on to my future children. Peace everybody.


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## DonsPigeons (Jul 27, 2012)

*Too Many Pigeons*

I had over 300+ one time. I only have 20 at the most now. Try selling some.
WWW.PigeonBreed.Com


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

All the responses here are very good and provide some fuel for thinking. However, I think page after page is way off topic from the original posters intent. Inquiring if anyone has to the point where they have too many birds to the point that they are no longer enjoying them or able to spend time just enjoying them........that it has become just work. For some folks and situations one or two pigeons could be pleasure and all they can keep after while still have time to interact and enjoy their pets but more than that a hassle. For another a loft of 80 birds may be manageable but when it reaches 100 overcrowded and too much effort to mantain. You should try not to keep more than YOU can reasonably handle with time, space, finances, tolerances etc.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Woodnative said:


> All the responses here are very good and provide some fuel for thinking. However, I think page after page is way off topic from the original posters intent. Inquiring if anyone has to the point where they have too many birds to the point that they are no longer enjoying them or able to spend time just enjoying them........that it has become just work. For some folks and situations one or two pigeons could be pleasure and all they can keep after while still have time to interact and enjoy their pets but more than that a hassle. For another a loft of 80 birds may be manageable but when it reaches 100 overcrowded and too much effort to mantain. You should try not to keep more than YOU can reasonably handle with time, space, finances, tolerances etc.


Many people will have a hundred birds And they are not over crowded or not well taken care of.. Loft size and set up makes a differenerce. I knew a person theat kept about 600 birds. And took good care of them.. And had plenty of room. He bought a 3 bedroom home next door to his. Turned it into a loft And also had 2 other 24 foot lofts.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Wow that is a lot of pigeons, I sold all of my Rollers yesterday so now I only have 25 American Giant Homers and 23 West of Englands. 

Have a blessed day


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I guess it depends on the breed too, whether you can rehome them easily. I doubt that I'd be able to rehome my rescued ferals so I have the attitude that the buck stops with me, no matter what. I just have to keep them from breeding.


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## Pigeonfriends (Jan 19, 2012)

Bella_F said:


> I guess it depends on the breed too, whether you can rehome them easily. I doubt that I'd be able to rehome my rescued ferals so I have the attitude that the buck stops with me, no matter what. I just have to keep them from breeding.


I rescued over 30 Feral pigeons from parking lots and alley way and given it away to all my male friends. Males tend to like pets that are of oddity, i stopped cause i ran out of friends but i don't think its hard, it's only hard because you can't explain the fact that it's a non dieased creature because it does not have a name to ride on. Of course it be easier to sell something that has so much history to it. So if you tried to give it away to a stranger, they will look at you like your crazy trying to give them a "rat with wings". I have only given one pigeon to each individual, even when they ask to have another as a companion for their feral. 

No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted-Aesop

And to the person who said that they wish there were less feral pigeons, The passenger pigeon died on the same idea that someone thought there were too many of them. Just food for thought.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm glad you were able to do that, well done. 

I live in Australia and rehoming pigeons is a huge problem. My friend who bred Kings and modenas took a whole year to rehome 20 birds, and he was very active about it. And sadly, when he finally found a home for his kings , the guy wouldn't feed them properly...he had been hoping to make quick money from them, and fed cheap wheat. overcrowded dirty conditions, no sun etc. My friend was so upset. They got sick and were euthanized (except for one that lives with me).

Another sad case was a champion race pigeon breeder who got alzheimers last year. He had many decades of racing experience, dating back to the world war in a concentration camp. Really interesting guy, lots of long term friends who were pigeon keepers, and he bred many champions. So when he became too sick to care for them, his kids didn't want them so they sent them to auction, which was very well publicized. 

Noone wanted them! The champions were given away , $10 each. The left overs `culled'.
I rehomed one of them, but the rest did not find homes.

So if champions can't find homes, I don't see much hope for the ferals, sorry.


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

That's so sad, Bella, to have champions not even valued at auction and going for $10. I am glad to hear all the comments of those who have managed to have a humane solution to what to do with too many birds, like SmithFamilyLoft and PigeonFriends and re lee. Shows it can be done. Good idea to plan out how many birds you will want, how "into" the sport do you want to go and think beforehand how many birds can you reasonably have? I also understood, you cannot know just how many ybs will be good ones. But I could never wring a bird's neck. I could not get into racing if that had to happen, but that is just me. It would kill something inside me.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I guess the main thing we all need to promote to everyone starting in the hobby is to START SMALL. 2 good pairs are better than 4 average pairs. More mouths to feed, more room needed, more problem with the neighbors, cleaning problems, etc.

If you stick to your best breeders every year, within 2-3 years you should be able to develop a decent breeding stock which will produce a lower amount of unsatisfactory birds as far as racing goes. 

That's what I'm hoping to do. I used to use the open loft breeding system with my tipplers and high fliers. If someone asked me if I was 100% sure I knew who the parents of the babies were, I'd be lying because there was no guarantee. 

I've switched over to individual breeding pens. Now I know for sure who the parents are and what kind of babies they produce. I have 18 individual breeding pens. After 2013, out of the 14 pairs of breeders I have now, I'll know which 10 I want to keep for further breeding purposes, and which ones will become foster parents


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

this is one of many small animal auctions that sells pigeons .. and this is just one row out of 5 now you know what the end results are ... most of them went to pigeon shots


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## Jason Heidlauf (Apr 2, 2012)

the reason I posted the pictures is most people have know idea what an animal auction looks like . ..now I'm not peta.............. I just so happen to live near an auction


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeonfriends said:


> I rescued over 30 Feral pigeons from parking lots and alley way and given it away to all my male friends. Males tend to like pets that are of oddity, i stopped cause i ran out of friends but i don't think its hard, it's only hard because you can't explain the fact that it's a non dieased creature because it does not have a name to ride on. Of course it be easier to sell something that has so much history to it. So if you tried to give it away to a stranger, they will look at you like your crazy trying to give them a "rat with wings". I have only given one pigeon to each individual, even when they ask to have another as a companion for their feral.
> 
> No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted-Aesop
> *
> And to the person who said that they wish there were less feral pigeons, The passenger pigeon died on the same idea that someone thought there were too many of them. Just food for thought.*




Actually,they died off because people hunted them for food and such, not to just get rid of them because there were too many.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jason Heidlauf said:


> this is one of many small animal auctions that sells pigeons .. and this is just one row out of 5 now you know what the end results are ... most of them went to pigeon shots



That's horrible! But let's face it, many people who use pigeons, and over breed, just to try and get the results they want, really don't care about where they end up, just as long as it isn't their problem. Any way you try to cut it, there is a lot of abuse and cruelty in pigeon racing and breeding. Any animal you bring into the world, you are responsible for. And when you just "cull" the extras, or just "get rid" of them, and not care where they go, then you are committing an act of cruelty. But that's okay right? Because all that matters is that you get what YOU want. re lee, you can defend it as much as you like, but it is just wrong. If you can't see the abuse and cruelty that goes on, for what it is, then you are blind. Or just not being very honest. There is a lot of cruelty that goes on, but people just choose not to see it.
Guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on. The breeders side............or the birds side.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Gee..................I don't know why PETA, and the other animal rights groups are against pigeon racing and breeding. Any thoughts on the subject?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Time To Close This Thread>


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