# Open loft vs. Individual pens



## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

Whats the pros and cons of each. To be real competitive do you really need individual pens?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Parentage is one advantage of individual pens. It is more work to feed, and clean though. If you want to make sure who are the real parents, stick with individual pens.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

You leave more to chance that the birds will pair up properly to body types, wing types, and eye colors if you dont use individual pens. Not everyone will breed on these things and dont have the extra time or initiative to put into individual pens. Also, you want your best to the best and they may not pick each other that way. Ask any mother-in-law they think their child could of picked better. You get to play the mother-in-law


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

This is a great topic...I'm currently deciding what type of loft I should build for my birds. A sectioned walk-in loft or individual pens for pairs. I have five birds total of which 2 are paired. I'm currently housing them in a converted 6x10 dog kennel that act as an all in one where the birds fly freely around with a couple of perches and 4 nest boxes. 

What's everyone's take???


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Instead of individual pens, I think I would have three breeding sections. Section A and B would be used to breed and concentrate genes of certain families; i.e., Hekkenklak and Van Loons. Then section C would be used to cross birds from sections A and B.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

People are succesfull both ways. I like to let them pair themselves but I also pair some in cages. Last year the pairs that paired on their own blew away the pairs I did. I know some people like Elton Dinga, Ad Schaerlaeckens, and Tony Rossi like to free mate their birds. I think either way you do it you have to find the pairs that work together and stick with them. If a pair free mates and don't work together you almost have to use individual cages or change to anouther loft to break the pair.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I have three other birds that i'm allowing to free mate. 1 I'm sure is a cock and the other 2 I think are hens, but they don't seem to be interested at all with one another. My red check cock who is paired up with a blue bar hen sometimes leaves the blue bar and mates with one of the 2 other hens. Could it be that the other cock is to intimidated by the red check that he doesn't even try to take a hen for himself? And what will happen if the other hen lays eggs when the blue bar lays eggs?...Will my red check father both sets of eggs from each hen?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I have three other birds that i'm allowing to free mate. 1 I'm sure is a cock and the other 2 I think are hens, but they don't seem to be interested at all with one another. My red check cock who is paired up with a blue bar hen sometimes leaves the blue bar and mates with one of the 2 other hens. *Could it be that the other cock is to intimidated by the red check that he doesn't even try to take a hen for himself?* *And what will happen if the other hen lays eggs when the blue bar lays eggs?...Will my red check father both sets of eggs from each hen?*


*It's possible I guess. Hard to know though, if you don't know exactly how many cocks or hens you have. *

*I wouldn't let two hens in separate bowls raise babies depending on one cock to help both. That would put a lot of stress on the cock bird. When they lay eggs and raise babies, the hen spends the majority of the time on the nest. These times aren't set in stone, but they're pretty close. The hen usually stays on the nest from about 4:00ish in the afternoon, through the night and until about 10:00ish in the morning. Around 10, the cock takes over the nest sitting duties until about 4:00. They will do this round the clock for about 19 days and after the babies hatch, will continue to do this until the babies are around 8 to 10 days old. So you can see where ONE of the nests would not be taken care of properly. The lone hen would hang in there for a few days, but she's not going to sit on those eggs 24/7 for 19 days. You would either loose the eggs, or eventually loose the babies, because someone just wouldn't get the attention they need. *


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## pattersonk2002 (Jun 1, 2008)

*breeding*

I do not breed for kits (as of yet) I do however breed to be selective, I have four differant breeds and know for sure that they will breed with anbody, at least two of the cock birds will. Because of this I have eight pens for breeding and an area where I can let them fly to get there wing stretches, there pens are big enough for them to streach but I like to let them fly about once a week if they are not sitting. All the pens are 3'x3'x3' or bigger so I can put a pan for bathing in them. Like Rod said though, it is a lot more time for me to feed, water and clean clean clean. I was wondering though if I let Serbian highflyers and Arabian trumpeters mate if I could hear where they at at up there>Kevin


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> *It's possible I guess. Hard to know though, if you don't know exactly how many cocks or hens you have. *
> 
> *I wouldn't let two hens in separate bowls raise babies depending on one cock to help both. That would put a lot of stress on the cock bird. When they lay eggs and raise babies, the hen spends the majority of the time on the nest. These times aren't set in stone, but they're pretty close. The hen usually stays on the nest from about 4:00ish in the afternoon, through the night and until about 10:00ish in the morning. Around 10, the cock takes over the nest sitting duties until about 4:00. They will do this round the clock for about 19 days and after the babies hatch, will continue to do this until the babies are around 8 to 10 days old. So you can see where ONE of the nests would not be taken care of properly. The lone hen would hang in there for a few days, but she's not going to sit on those eggs 24/7 for 19 days. You would either loose the eggs, or eventually loose the babies, because someone just wouldn't get the attention they need. *


Gotcha...So it's not a good idea. I'll just have to get rid of the other set of eggs if the other hen does decide to lay some. 

Since I know that I have another hen and cock for sure, I will try to force pair them. Will this affect the red check in anyway, like cause him to fight the other cock for his mistress? Or will he leave her alone when he sees that she is no longer single? 

Man...this is like a soap opera .... drama, drama, drama....LOL


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

This thread is not showing up for me? It only shows replies when I click to reply. This is so weird. Anyone else having a problem?


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

It's all good on my end....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ohiogsp said:


> This thread is not showing up for me? It only shows replies when I click to reply. This is so weird. Anyone else having a problem?


I'm not having any problems.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> Gotcha...So it's not a good idea. I'll just have to get rid of the other set of eggs if the other hen does decide to lay some.
> 
> Since I know that I have another hen and cock for sure, I will try to force pair them. Will this affect the red check in anyway, like cause him to fight the other cock for his mistress? Or will he leave her alone when he sees that she is no longer single?
> 
> Man...this is like a soap opera .... drama, drama, drama....LOL


Do you have a way to separate the two pairs? I think if you can get the other two to pair up, then he'll leave the mistress alone. If his TRUE LOVE lays eggs, then that should slow him down some too. At least PART of the day, he'll be on egg duty. LOL
You know, it might be a good idea to take the one hen out for a day or so. You don't want to take either pair out, or you'll have trouble putting them back. 
Soap Opera......that's funny......we say that quite a bit 'round here. LOL


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## Avion (May 28, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> I'm not having any problems.


I just posted a reply and it did not appear in the thread. 

George


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## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

is a 30x18x18 breeder cage efficient enough to hold a pair of birds as a individual breeder pen? They are on eBay for 100 for 4 cages thinking about getting 4 sets of these pens. Also How many pairs you need mated for a good amount of offspring for race season? Say 50 birds for beginning tosses?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TipplerBeni said:


> is a 30x18x18 breeder cage efficient enough to hold a pair of birds as a individual breeder pen? They are on eBay for 100 for 4 cages thinking about getting 4 sets of these pens. Also How many pairs you need mated for a good amount of offspring for race season? Say 50 birds for beginning tosses?


Personally, I don't think so. I know that many here use small cages or cage like boxes to breed in. I don't like the idea of pigeons being couped up in a small cage for 2 or 3 months. No excercise and barely enough room to even flap their wings. And that's when it's just the two parent birds. Then, eventually you've got two babies, so now there's 4 birds in there and THEN you've got to provide another nest bowl for the next set of eggs. So now, you've got 4 birds and two nest bowls in one small cage. 
To me, that's like locking yourself, your wife and your two kids in an 8 x 8 room for 2 or 3 months with no way out. 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
Do you have a loft already?


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## TipplerBeni (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah my breeding loft is 16x8x7 the main said is 8x8x7 that has right now all the birds about 30 homers. It has several dozen nest boxes now but are small (had it for tipplers) the nest boxes are 9x9. After this breeding season is over I'm going to knock the bunks down an make several nest boxes about 2x2x2 and a couple bigger pens for individual breeders. The smaller side is 8x4 has about 14 nest boxes that are 12x12x12. My whites and racers are together for this season. My racing loft I'm building at my house. Breeder loft is at my parents yard. But once this season is over I'm leaving the whites in the bigger loft an just having a selected pair of racers put in the 8x4 to breed and a couple in the individual boxes. Don't want the whites crossing with the colored birds. So I'm trying to get an early idea of how I want to construct the bunks. So Ideas are welcome.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

TipplerBeni said:


> is a 30x18x18 breeder cage efficient enough to hold a pair of birds as a individual breeder pen? They are on eBay for 100 for 4 cages thinking about getting 4 sets of these pens. Also How many pairs you need mated for a good amount of offspring for race season? Say 50 birds for beginning tosses?


This is the size pen I am using and paid 40.00 for the set of 4. They work great. My breeders are used to it and I have no problems with the space.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

TipplerBeni said:


> Also How many pairs you need mated for a good amount of offspring for race season? Say 50 birds for beginning tosses?


About 10 pair if you can do 3 rounds, if you are only doing 2 rounds then you should have more like 15 pair.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

TipplerBeni said:


> Whats the pros and cons of each. To be real competitive do you really need individual pens?


 If time, money, space etc. was of no issue. Then I would have 20 sections of 8 x 8 sections for each pair. I don't think you would have any complaints from the parents that they have too much space. 

Every new year, as I look back, I can see that it has been only a very few pairs which have really made a difference. I have no idea at this point the exact number of pairs I own...there are three buildings.....15 sections....but I can tell you, that in the last several years, it has been six pairs or fewer which have made a season. 

So, if I could wave a magic wand, it would be walk in, seperate breeding sections.


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