# How do I Feed my Baby Pigeon Right?



## Birdn00b (Jul 20, 2006)

I just found an abandoned baby pigeon or dove (im not sure) that is a little over a week old. Iv been feeding it Kaytee Exact. And Iv been using the end part of a big eye dropper thing; just the part that you squeeze it by and not the rest. I fill it up with the baby bird formula and it sticks its whole beak in and sucks it all out. This is a very messy process and by the time it is done its whole beak is covered in the baby bird formula, Including its nose holes. I am very new to raising baby birds and I wanted to know if this is dangerous. The food often gets in its nose. So far it seems to be healthy exept I can hear a clicking noise when it breaths sometimes and it also shakes its head allot after feeding. I read somewhere that it is normal for the baby pigeon to stick its beak in its parents mouth for food and not the other way around, but I sure dont want to hurt the little critter. Does anyone have any advice?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is the most natural method of feeding although it can be very messy! How wide is the entrance hole? Perhaps if you made it narrow enough to get his beak in and gape (they gape inside the parent's mouth and have food pumped in gently) but not so wide that his nostrils get inside? 

.I use a syringe and bandage whcih is similar. As you will see from the photo the pigeon managed to get formula all over his head:

http://community.webshots.com/album/165797594SYYRWL

It is important to let him uo for air regularly and wipe his face. Also to ensure that he gets enough food per feed, the crop should feel nice and squishy.

Cynthia


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## Birdn00b (Jul 20, 2006)

Thankyou for the advice. The hole was a bit to big it allowed for the whole beak to go inside of it. I think that too much food got stuck in its nose because. It just passed away a few hours after I posted that last message. At first I could tell something was wrong because it kept on shaking its head allot since I started feeding it that way. I tried clearing the nostrils a bit but I guess it was too late. It kept breathing through its mouth and then it died.

Also I havn't yet tried your ballon syringe method but I have a idea that may help. Im not sure but I think that If you used a bit smaller syringe, attached a tube around the outside and cut it to sort of simulate a beak while still keeping the ballon or cloth at the part where the syringe is cut off . And trying to make it the same diameter and length as the beak of a adult bird. Just in general trying to make it as much like the mouth of the adult as possible. I hope this will help.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi birdn00b,

I'm so sorry to hear about the babt dying. 

It may or may not be due to the nasal passages being clogged up. The baby may have been sick already.

Please do follow the method that Cynthia has shown, and that way you won't have to worry about the bird getting food in the nostrils anymore.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdnoob,



Your eye Dropper end is on the right track, but likely it is not as wide as it needs to be, for them to be able to open their Beak far enough to really 'gobble'.

I myself would never, EVER feed straight KT, and the endless tales of woe and disappointment one hears from so many who have, should be enough to give one some pause for thought.

If I was going to use KT, and I have, I always mix other things in with it, and I have never had any of the kinds of fatalities or other problems others report routinely.

Too, a conventional, soft, people-baby-bottle Nipple, JUST the 'Nipple' and not the 'bottle'...when one cuts of the collar or flange of it, is a very nice 'cup' for young or Baby Beaks to eat from, and this is how I have always done it, and I have never had any reason to feel disappointment.

How one does it, the finesse with which one does it, how one communicates with the Baby or youngster, and what one makes FOR their formula, is all very important also, for how well things will go.

Probably any method where the Baby or youngster inserts his or her Beak into something to feed, will get food covering their Nostrils temporarily...and your problem there might have been from the all too adhesive consistancy of the 'plain' KT itself, and not from the method of feeding per se.


Your Baby may also have had Canker or some other problem effecting their Throat or it's immediate areas...especially the 'head shaking', is typical of this.

Too, they will refuse the food or shake their heads when it is too hot, or too cool, or when they do not like it for whatever reason.

Anyway, if you wanted to do so, you could see some additional reference to feeding in the thread "Chow time for Dove Baby"...and to also follow the link provided for the images about it.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16432

This shows a Baby Dove eating, and also some of the variations of modified 'Nipples' I use to feed them with.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I must have missed all these tales of woe and disappointment because I use Kaytee with very good results and I know a lot of others do too. However, it is very expensive to start with in the UK and there is a lot of waste as any surplus mix after a feed has to be disposed of, so I use chick starter crumbs as an effective and economic alternative.

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Phil.

I'm sorry to come down on you again but I wish you would stop belittling the Kaytee powdered formula. Results always vary with any manufactured baby bird food but you did infer that there were many fatalites associated with this product. This is not a good impression to give to others and not necessarily founded on factual information.

Many of us here, myself included, have successfully hand reared young pigeon squabs on this powdered diet and it alone....Terry is another person whom will recommend this formula to others, do you feel she is in error? Pidgey also will recommend this particular powdered formula. Nothing is absolute, perfect, impure but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily poision either.

You have to realize at some point, and even though, you have some *EXCELLENT* ideas about the care and feeding of young pigeons, that your perspective isn't gospel 

Please, try to open your mind a little, be broader and incorporate ideas with us, instead of wanting to dictate them as the "only way" to others

Thank you Phil


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Birdnoob,
> 
> *I myself would never, EVER feed straight KT, and the endless tales of woe and disappointment one hears from so many who have, should be enough to give one some pause for thought.*
> 
> ...


Phil,
It's fine to post that you would never, ever use KT 'straight'.
It's another thing to post unfounded & damaging statements about a product.

Please refrain from making such statements unless you have documented evidence to support them. 

Thank you.

Cindy








Cindy


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## Birdn00b (Jul 20, 2006)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Birdnoob,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The eyedropper end thing I used was pretty big but it may not have been big enough, the hole itself was about 1/4 inch. Is it harmful if the hole is not big enough?

What are these "endless tales of woe and dissapointment", do you know of stuff like this that has occured? And what is it that you feed your babies and mix into the KT formula?

I do think that it may have been due to the "adhesive consistancy" of plain KT because I did notice that it was all dried up in its nostrils and also had some dried into the feathers where I missed wiping it off. The stuff in the feathers seemed very hard after it had dried. Could it have been the ratio of water to formula that it was mixed?

Also what is a "Canker"? Because I did notice lots of head shaking when it wasnt being fed. And just before it died it was twisting its head around.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Canker is a parasite many birds contract and it can be deadly if not treated immediately. It can cause white cheese, smelly growths anywhere along the digestive tract that keep on growing and destroying the tissues. It can surround the trachea opening and deprive the bird of oxygen and as it grows it causes total obstruction.
Other times it destroys the healthy tissues like esophagus, crop. As it forms lumps it can also obstruct the crop, esophagus or mouth. 
It is a deadly disease if not treated.

From the symptoms you describe he might have had this and if it is located further down you can't notice it. The head shaking is one of the possible symptoms as the bird tries to dislocate the lump and ease his breathing or swalling or both.

Birds are very tough creatures and they might not show any symptoms until it is too late.

Keep it in mind when you find birds in the future as canker is a pretty common illness.

Reti


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## Birdn00b (Jul 20, 2006)

how do you treat a canker?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Metronidazole (Flagyl), ronidazole, carnidazole all drugs that end in "zole"

reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Reti said:


> Metronidazole (Flagyl), ronidazole, *carnidazole* all drugs that end in "zole"
> 
> reti


Birdn00b,
Spartrix is another name for Carnidazole.  

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> I myself would never, EVER feed straight KT, and the endless tales of woe and disappointment one hears from so many who have, should be enough to give one some pause for thought.
> 
> If I was going to use KT, and I have, I always mix other things in with it, and I have never had any of the kinds of fatalities or other problems others report routinely.




Hi all, 


Please forgive me for having spoken carelessly there, and for making some understandable disappointments and confusions.


Love, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Birdn00b said:


> The eyedropper end thing I used was pretty big but it may not have been big enough, the hole itself was about 1/4 inch. Is it harmful if the hole is not big enough?



Hi Birdn00b,


Sorry for the delay...it has been really hot here lately, and I have had a lot of out door work to do, and it has been hard to think, and hard to compose written words.


Now, as far as I can say, the "1/4 inch" inside diameter rubber 'Cup' from the Eye Dropper, would not be large enough for the Baby Pigeon's Beak to open and close for their 'gobbleing' to occur, even if they could likely manage to drink somewhat from it...but it would of course be rather shallow even for that...and rather many successive feedings would have to be provided for them to get much of a meal or much for hydration...since they likely could not drink more than the top third or so from such a small rubber "Cup".

But the idea, of useing that, I think was entirely on the right track...it just needs to be a little larger...and ideally transparent so one can see the volume being eaten each time.


Did you look into the link I posted about 'Chow Time for Dove Baby"?



The very small Beaks of the newly born or infant Pigeons, or of Baby Doves, I think would do better if fed initally, from the bottom 3/4 inch of a suitable soft rubber People-Baby-Bottle-Nipple, whose inside diameter is more like 3/8ths of an Inch, as well as that it may be gently squeezed to be wider along one axis to allow easier 'gobbleing', while they are eating/drinking.

One may simply cut off the bottom 'Cup' asepct of the Nipple, for them to eat out of untill they are able to eat from a larger version.

Usually, they can eat just fine out of the larger deeper version fairly soon anyway, within a day or less, once they are used to the abbreviated 'small' one to graduate from...once they feel easy and enthused with the process.



> What are these "endless tales of woe and dissapointment", do you know of stuff like this that has occured?




I apologise, I was hot, tired, frustrated and was indulging hyperbole. Thgis was an error both of taste and of judgement and I am sorry.


My concern has not been with the 'K-T' itself...which is a fine product and is of course very handy for many occasions.


My concern has been with a mentality, or with the inadvertant suggestion the product itself it taken to make...that all one needs TO do, to feed and raise a logistically orphanned or other Baby Bird, is to somehow get the product into them.

The "Tales of Woe" have nothing to do with the "K-T" or kindred products themseves...which I use and have many times recommended...but have everything to do with naive, confused, improper, dangerous, poorly understood, or poorly executed, or otherwise confused and dangerous or brutal practices of force feeding, or feeding of some kind or other as one may elect to try in desperation, in which Babys are injured, sickened, given aspiration pneumonias, or killed, needlessly.



There have been punctured Crops, punctured
Esophaguses...abraded, bruised or lacerated Crops,
lacerated Throats, torn Esophaguses...bleeding and
infections, abcesses, from injurys of force feeds
done badly...abcesses resulting from bad force
feeds with carelessly used proper insturments and from carelessly used improper insturments...too HOT of
formula...force feeding 'chilled' Babys...on and
on...

Force feeds accidentally forced into the Bird's breathing hole or Trachia...

Mouth-force-feeds where liquid similarly is forced into their proed-open-Beaks or mouths where the liquid or fomula is given faster than the Bird can swallow, and it chokes them and or gets into their Trachia and drowns them or causes serious problems getting into their lungs.


Sour Crops, Crop stasis, sodden festering
fermenting Crops, Candida, clogged digestive
systems, hardened globs of formula stuck in their
little Crops or clogging them so they
die...dehydration, bottoms of Crop clogged with globs of thick
goo so water passes too slowly and food not at all... from
poor use or practices of 'powder-mix' without
benifit of knowledge about HOW to use them...how
to prepare them, how to feed them, how to gydrate the Baby between times, what else to
do in addition...and yes, I know
"the instructions are on the package and one must
NOT EVER DEVIATE IN ANY WAY"..."Use this much Water and power for this age Bird" and so on...but climates vary, hydration needs vary, lots of things vary...

Okay...

So, we also get people writing in with, or Vets who lament of, what turn
out to be Babys or other Pigeons or Doves with
scalded and burned Mouths, scalded Throats, scalded 
Esophaguses and Crops, from poor practices of
'warming' the formula...not testing it FOR how
'warm' it really is...useing a 'microwave' instead of a pan of hot water to warm it, on and on...not letting the Baby ( or other Bird) even reject it when it IT scalding, spoiled, too thick, badly mixed...forceing it down their throats by one method or another.

Force feeding spoiled formula kept too long or
kept at room temperature, where the Baby or other Bird is not
permitted TO reject it...

Aspiration pnuemonias....

Asphyxiations' paroxisms and deaths...

"Weaning problems"


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

All totally un-necessary...all easy to avoid...and all too possible when the information is lacking about how TO feed them correctly, and how to do a lot of things beside 'feed' them, as well...

How to keep them "warm" and how to know they are "warm" so one is not feeding a 'chilled' Baby...or force feeding a chilled Baby...this too can kill them, and reliably.






> And what is it that you feed your babies and mix into the KT formula?



This will depend on the Baby or older Bird in various ways...I make diferent formulas according to the individual Bird's condition and situation.

But generally, I make fresh Seed 'meal' in a Kitchen Blender, and I make about a Tea Cup full at a time. This I refridgerate covered, for use each day as a 'dry' ingredient.

I may also have made a 'meal' or coarse powder at the same time of various dried Berries by themselves or which I added to the Seeds when I had them in the Blender. Usually "Goji Berries"...sometimes dark sour dried Cherries...Elderberries...

I often add plain, old fashioned, "Malto Meal"...as another dry ingredient.

Powdered Sea Weeds I either make myself in the Blender or buy as powder.

Fresh, new Bottle Olive Oil or Flax Seed Oil...kept refriderated and used within a few months or tossed and replaced.

Fresh, made in the Blender, Corn Meal...

Digestive Enzymes...

Pro-Biotics...

Powdered Vitamines...

Trace Mineral concentration Syrups...

Goji Berry Syrup...

Dark Cherry Syrup...

Elderberry Syrup...

Small whole Seeds, such as Canary Seed or Finch Seeds...Flax seeds sometimes...


How much of what, which ingredients, will vary according to the Bird.


For an average, healthy, Baby Dove or Baby Pigeon, if more than a week old, my usual routine would be...

In a Tea Cup, to combine about 3 tablespoons 'Hagens' or 'K-T'...two tablespoons of plain non-flavored 'Malto Meal'...one tablespoon of fresh Corn Meal...some digestive enzymes and pro-biotics powders, a teaspoon or so of powdered Sea Weed, 1 or 2 tablespoons of high quality small whole Seeds...

Mix all well and keep dry and covered in the fridge.


Then, in a Tea Cup or other smaller sort of glass or china Cup...

Take however much of that 'dry mix' one needs for a day's worth of feedings...if for one young Baby merely then really a couple tablespoons of it should do.

Put the dry ingredients in the Cup, and pour over it enough good, clean hi quality Water, to cover it with about 3/8ths of an inch of clear Water on top.

Let it sit 20 minutes or more, covered, in the fridge.


Once it has sat, put an inch or so of Water in a small or medium Saucepan on the Stove, and bring the Water to a boil. Once boiling, remove from the flame and pour out about 1/4th of it, then add an inch of cold Water to it. Set the Cup of hydrated formula in the now roughly about to be 106 degree pan Water, and add a little more Water as need be to the formula, and stirr.

Stirring will now allow the formula to come up to temperature as well as mixing it thoroughly...any syrups or other liquid ingredients not added already could be added now.


Formula should be mixed somewhat 'thin' or like melted Ice Cream might be on a warm day.


With the stirr Spoon, place a little of the ( absolutely thoroughly mixed and continuously stirred and not let to sit unstirred) formula on the underside of your wrist...if it feels like no temperature, then it is 'right'...if it feels hot, it is TOO hot...if it feels cool, it is too cool.

One only needs to stirr it for a rather brief time, as the liesurely hydration of the mix seems to prevent any 'globs' from forming, but the stitting is important for all of it to be an even temperature...and it only takes a minute or two.

The formula should be about 98 - 100 degrees thereabouts, or about what one's own body temperature is.

If the Water in the saucepan is just a little warmer than the formula, all is perfect, and one bring the Saucepan and the cup of formula with small spoon in it, over to where one intends to feed the Baby, and one spoons the formula into the hollow side of the Nipple so it is about 3/4rs full, and lets them eat.



> I do think that it may have been due to the "adhesive consistancy" of plain KT because I did notice that it was all dried up in its nostrils and also had some dried into the feathers where I missed wiping it off. The stuff in the feathers seemed very hard after it had dried. Could it have been the ratio of water to formula that it was mixed?



Any formula for them which we might make, which incorporates any of the powdered products like "K-T" or "Hagens" and so on, will be liable to adhere to their faces or Feathers or throats if it is slopped on them there and allowed to dry. 

Overall, there is almost no way to avoid some small slops like this, and it can be somewhat cleaned off gently once done feeding, otherwise one just lives with it, and later on when they are older, "baths" become of interest to them and these may be massaged into dissolving off then.


Formulas made with out these powders, useing other dry ingredients such as home made 'meals', some Malto Meal, Sea Weed powder and small whole Seeds, will not tend to make these kinds of little problems, and or will clean up more easily and are not likely to stick well to their little Feathers.

Otherwise, one accepts that a little messyness and a little dried formula on the Baby, is somehting which is hard to avoid. When it is fresh and just on them, it is nearlly invisible, even as one gently cleans the Baby after feeding.

Then, later, as it dries, it becomes much more appearent, and by then it is hard to get off.

Too, most people just mix and serve, and then the formula continues to thicken in the Bird's Crop.

This is some of "why" I add Water TO my formula mix, and let it sit for half an hour or something first, then I warm it and stirr and add more Water as needed as I do so to get the consistancy I wish. It wil not continue to thicken then, in the little Tea Cup....

But still will continue in effect to thicken in the Bird or Baby's Crop, as the moisture in it is drawn off prior to the food being passed to the Stomach...so one must always offer Water ( in fact , for the very young it must always be "tepid" Water) off and on between meals, so their Crop remains nice and squishy loose...


Best wishes...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I found this to be very useful information, as I'm expecting two squabs probably before the end of the month. (Incubating and hand feeding as last resort). I'm going to be using the "MacMilk", as I found the recipe on this site. Do you have any suggestions? I think I'm going to use your nipple method, however, I have heard of babies aspirating formula when they fed out of a device such as that. Should there not be enough food for their nostrils to be in the food? I don't want to hurt these babies. I would resort to tube feeding, however, I have heard of many unfortunate events due to force feeding... And it's not good for the squabs at all.

Any support you can give me would be welcomed.

Thank you.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


The 'MacMilk' seems quite carefully thought out and developed, and it would seem to make sense if one were having to feed Pigeon or Dove Babys who had only just hatched or pipped.


The nutritional needs of the true infant are peculiar...and if they may not be fed by their parents, to obtain the Pigeon Milk, then something, certainly, which will contain the enzymes, the flaura and fauna necessary for their digestive processes and assimilations, needs to be devised and provided.

I myself feel that with some thought and research, something else than strained 'Chicken' could be found to satifsy the protean needs, and likely vegetative proteans could be assayed to evaluate candidates.

"Misu" also is sometimes used in young Pigeons and Doves formula...


I do not see the 'MacMilk' as being appropriate for, or making any sense for, Babys who had been able to spend say the first four or five days of their life being fed by Pigeon-parents...but whom we may be called on to raise from there.

Or, additionally, I do not know that because the Crop Milk being in effect largely made up of a special kind of Cells which sluff off from their growing in the Crop lineing, which sluff off to be fed to the Baby...if this in itself is per-se a sufficient rationalle for an election of actual animal 'flesh', 'strained' or otherwise, as a desireable source of protean for the true infant or neonate...



If you are expecting Pigeon Babys who are over a week old, or more, they can be fed, or they can eat, much much simpler Foods than the 'MacMilk' entails, with no need for any animal based protean sources, and also, they should be respected in this way, for their Vegan traditions I think.

'My' Babys are usually pecking Seeds for themselves at two weeks, which I guide them to do, and let them do in moderation, even though I will feed them another four weeks more, with them eating in the Baby-Way, or till they are fledged and full size Birds pretty much...by which time they leave off the Baby feeds on their own.

So, if you are geting 'Squabs', really, you can just Baby-feed them with easy nutritious formula, and guide them to peck Seeds in addition, if they are about 2 weeks old or more...at which time their Diet should be mostly Seeds fed to them anyway...Seeds and other things mixed in the slurry-soup-formula...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank you. When you say "much much simpler", do you mean I could just feed them some Kaytee Exact instead of such a thought-out, complex diet? I want to get them started the best I can, and raise them to their full potential. It doesn't matter to me the expenses spent on this crop milk, nor how much work it takes to feed it to them. Like I said, I will go to any heights.
I think when being hand reared, the same things found in nature apply. Squabs are fed very high protein and digestable diets, even when they're older in age. At that point, they're simply fed other things that the parents are consuming as well, mixed in with the crop milk. Would it be wise to start adding this to this MacMilk, or would it be wiser to wean them off onto Kaytee Exact at a certain age and add things to that?

Also, I want to know if your "nipple technique" is the best way possible to feed these babies, even at such a young age. I worry that the formula will be in such a dilute form that it may be inhaled through the nostrils. I've seen this happen before, and I don't want to harm these babies.
I'll probably be keeping them together in the same brooder unless it is advisable not to do so. I'll likely be feeding with different equipment, just to rest assured that no potentially harmful diseases or bacteria are transmitted from one squab to the next. I'm using a sort of "water brooder", as well - being that I keep them in a small, plastic Critter Keeper that's inserted in a bowl of water. The water's temperature is controlled by an aquarium heater. There is a thermostat that turns this on and off, and by using my watchful eye, I usually get quite accurate temperatures.

Thank you once again for your amazing advice.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Vasp, 


Well...

To my mind, there is kind of a lot to all this which make generalizations difficult.

How old the Baby is, will make differences to me, in terms of what I add to their formula...but basically, what I am after formula-wise, are combinations of foods which will be similar to what their parents would have fed them, and which include small whole Seeds and some Greens and Fruit Syrups and enzymes and...some fine Grit maybe, pro-biotics, 'Misu'...fresh ground Seeds...

And with deference in various ways to the Babys situation...

Many of the Babys I have had were injured, ill, or had suffered privations...and some of course were rolly-polly, robust, rough and tumble Peepers full of vigor and excitements and rearing to go...

I did this for many years with no "KT" or it's likes, and once I found out about "KT" I have used it, used "Hagens" and 'Roundybush' and some others and have been pleased with them, but I myself never use any of them plain, I use "them" as an ingredient in the formula...never "as" the formula.

I have used the 'Nipple' endless times, pretty much exclusively, for many hundreds of Babys, and I have never had one show any sign of getting any in their nostrils, or minding it if they did.

I do not think getting some formula in their Nostrils should occasion any problem for that matter, unless it somehow accumulated FROM there to begin making some sort of mass on their Beak or something through successive feedings ( which I have never seen happen)...otherwise, if one simply lets them drink immediately after being fed, or at least guides their little Beak into some tepid Water to wash it, they will wash their Beak nicely enough and their Nostrils too...

Letting them 'come up for air' when they are eagerly eating, is likely the salient matter here for the very young, rather than that their Nostrils may get some formula on them or momentarily in them.

One should have some judgement too, I suppose, to fill the Nipple somewhat according to the Beak, and to leave some room for the formula to raise when the Beak is inserted...and to let them come up for air, especially when they are little.

Squabs can eat the contents of the Nipple in less than a second...and some Sqaubs can eat seven or eight or nine Nipples full in no time...

...while infants or the very tender and delicate, take maybe ten seconds or so, or more, to eat the contents of a 3/4rs full semi-cut-down Nipple...so infants, or the delicate or infirm of tiny or small Bays, one lets them eat for a second or two, then one withdraws the Nipple, makes sure the infant has caught his breath and is ready for another go, then let them eat some more, for a couple seconds, then withdraws the Nipple, and so on, like that...little rounds of chow...and four or five or however many such little rounds seem right for them and their Crop and so on.

Really, their Parents keep them 'topped off' all day long...with many small feeds...and the Babys Crop never empties, but is always getting more added as there is room to do so.

So..things will vary according to the age/size of the Baby or youngster Pigeon or Dove, and also, their condition, their health, and so on...as for what one uses for the ingredients of their furmula, and to some degree, in the finesse with which one offers the Nipple and supervises their eating from it.


While 'KT', 'Hagens', 'Roudybush', 'LaFabers' and others are truely excellent products, having to them enough essential ingredients for one to manage with nothing else...

I prefer to use these as only 'some' of the ingredients for formula making, and also I recognise many situations where one may wish to tailor various things about the formula and the feeding finesse, to the individual Bird one is feeding.

Too, in general, I believe in 'Live' Foods or Fresh Foods, which wholesome Seeds in fact are...or fresh Seed 'meals' or coarse flower made from them which one can easily do for formula making...for just about any Baby or other whom I am going to feed in this way.

The only compromise I find sometimes is in situations where I must tube feed and of course then the formula must pass through a slender tube, and this limits the particle size it may have.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I don't want to get into any controversy about feeding methods so I'll just tell you how we do it. We've rehabbed 12+ years and fed probably 200+ squabs, fledglings, sick, injured pigeons in this time and have deviated from this method very little. We have had good results. This spring we had a massive intake of babies (see thread "Be Careful What You Wish For) and probably went through 4 bags of Exact during the process.

We have almost always used Kaytee Exact although a time or two used Harrison's formula. We use different sizes of syringes, depending on the size of the bird. If it is a newborn we use a 5 cc; squabs 10 cc and fledglings 20 cc. We attach a Catac nipple (about 1 1/2" in length and can be obtained from UPCO) with superglue to the end of the syringe. We have mixed so much formula that I don't even read directions anymore but for newborns it is more diluted than the instructions call for.

I wanted to add one further thought. When you are having to feed and care for as many birds as we sometimes get in it is impossible for us to do a "specialized" formula. The time is simply not there to do it. For us, Kaytee is a godsend in that we can feed many babies in a shorter period of time. For people who get in one or two I think it is fine to mix special things together and try feeding them in different ways so long as you have the time to do it.

My motto is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

We did change the feeding procedure for newborns this spring by adding plain yogurt each time to the formula to aid in digestion. This is something that we learned from Nooti (a moderator on the forum) and will now be standard procedure for us. We also, once a day, add Benebac to a feeding. For newborns, give it plain yogurt, about 1 cc for the first 2-3 feedings (about every 2 hours) then just put about 1/4 tsp in with the Exact from then on. We start increasing the amount of cc by about the end of the second day to about 1-2 cc per feeding. We put the nipple in the baby's beak, past the air hole and put in small amounts at the time, letting the baby rest for a second or two inbetween the sips. Keep a close eye on the crop. As the days progress we continue to increase the amount of cc's we feed. It is really hard to describe something that you do almost by "rote" but you soon get the hang of it.

Squabs and fledglings are handled about the same but of course they get more food with each feeding - ALWAYS watching the crop. We don't use the yogurt for fledglings but do use Benebac.

We also weigh all our pigeons regularly while they are being fed formula to make sure they are thriving. We use a gram scale and keep a record of their weight and how much we feed and how often.

We all have different methods and I can't say that our method is any better than what others may use but it is a method we're comfortable with and have had good results from. We did try both the nipple and the syringe method with the end covered and a slit cut in so the baby could nurse that way. So much food got all over the baby's face and in their nose that we stopped because we didn't want to hurt them.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah, that's something I worry about. Using a method like that, I lost a precious baby. If it works for others, I might consider using the nipple method, and I would try to use your method, too, but I have no idea where, In Canada and locally, I can find one of those nipples, or even begin to understand exactly how I go about doing that.

I have seen countless rehabilitators using syringes instead of tube feeding, and what they do is stick a syringe right down there, making sure it's down the esophagus and feed quickly like that. Is that a good or bad method?


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