# Will I get most homing ability back?



## sev3ns0uls

Before anyone start bashing me, i want to clarify my purpose first. 
I love the hybrid between a german owl(santinette) cross a racing homer. Their off spring are the most beautiful birds I ever seen. Short beak with a perfect wattle and cute round eyes with a gorgeous body built. Even their color appearances are pretty neat. It just a beauty! Yes, I know that cross breeding will lead to losing homing ability but i dont plan to race my homer yet. all i want is to have beautiful bird at my loft. 

So let say if i cross breed a German owl with a racing homer and then breed the cross offspring to another pure racing homer or inbreed to the racing homer parent, will i get a pure homer offspring back from it?

Or if if i breed a cross breed with the another same cross breed, will i get a pure homer or pure german owl from it?

your knowledge will be much appreciated!

This is a beauty!


----------



## Crazy Pete

You have taken the racing out of the homer, and the German out of the owl. So what you have is "the most beautiful birds I ever seen" so if your happy then so be it. If you ever want to train your birds you will have to get a homer hen. Have any pics of these pretty birds? We like pics.
Dave


----------



## sev3ns0uls

lolz Dave, but what happen if i breed it to another racing homer? will the offspring get 75% homing ability? Since the cross offspring has 50% homing and 50% owl, breeding it to an 100% racing homer, will that give me a 75% or pure homer offspring?

Yes, i know i destroy the homing ability when i cross them but it is possible to recreate it by breeding the offspring it to a pure homer so i can get back the full homing potential?


----------



## Crazy Pete

Nope in 10 generations you may get a lot of it back, but to get it back to it's full ability, not going to happen. You are right though it is a very pretty bird.
Dave


----------



## NZ Pigeon

You will improve the homing ability each time you backcross to a racing homer but it will take a while, It also depends on selecting the best offspring from the crosses to try and pick up the best of the racing homers genes. Remember all pigeons are select bred so almost anything is possible with careful selection and heavy culling.

Dave is right that to get back to quality birds you would be looking at around 10 crosses and by then you would be lucky if they kept the german owls traits, maybe one or two signs of it but they will look like racers again - unless you want to spend 50 years and carefully select the best homers with the look of the german owl and then you may get there


----------



## sev3ns0uls

wow so much hard work. It a good thing that there are many experts out there like you guys that can help and fill up some of our beginner curiosity holes.
Im very appreciate for the teaching.


----------



## APF_LOFT

the best thing to get the color santinette from crossbreed is to mate the crossbreed together. some genes are recessive they will only show up if they both are present. so if you breed the crossbreed to a pure racer you will not get the color santinette. 

about the homing ability of cross breed of owl pigeon and racer. they are good homer one of my friend have this cross and they homed for about 150km, pretty fast to cause they arrive same time with the racer


----------



## Crazy Pete

APF_LOFT said:


> the best thing to get the color santinette from crossbreed is to mate the crossbreed together. some genes are recessive they will only show up if they both are present. so if you breed the crossbreed to a pure racer you will not get the color santinette.
> 
> about the homing ability of cross breed of owl pigeon and racer. they are good homer one of my friend have this cross and they homed for about 150km, pretty fast to cause they arrive same time with the racer


He got lucky, any bird can follow.
Dave


----------



## APF_LOFT

Crazy Pete said:


> He got lucky, any bird can follow.
> Dave


he also single toss those crossbreeds and still they make it home.


----------



## boneyrajan.k

Don't underestimate any pigeon....and Also any pigeon fancier 
Sev3ns0uls,I Would like to Encourage you will your project......If you are dedicated,you can make a bird which looks like your bird with excellent homing ability.Most so called pigeon experts believe,they know everything about pigeons......But the truth is even the most experienced breeder(legends in the hobby) just knows only the tip of the ice-berg......So stay positive and carry on with your project.I am sure after 100 years,the racing homers will look entirely different from the present ones....bcoz,This hobby and as well as the look of the birds are not constant....both are evolving with time


----------



## spirit wings

I don't know why anyone would "bash" you.. I for one would love to have that cross loft flying around my home.. but I only have birds I fly for my own enjoyment around the loft so the homer purebreed is not as important. not sure what the point is of taking out pure homer and then trying to put it back... but the cross is a pretty bird.


----------



## Skyeking

I don't see the point in mixing the breeds, although the bird is lovely and as long as you are not misstreating your birds, there is no need to bash you.


----------



## sev3ns0uls

Because many breeders and racers are strongly against a rookie like myself for crossbreeding pigeon. They feel that doing it will hurt or destroy the specie and some think that its not a good idea. 

like i said before that by cross breeding, I know it will break down some of the traits but Im not a genetic expert. This hybrid is too beautiful to pass down and I just want those experience breeders to assure me that if i do crossbreed my birds, I will not lose everything. And that i can rebuilt its lost traits back up in time. And i do believe that there is no such thing as a "pure racer". The homer we have today may have been crossbreed overtime long ago.


----------



## Crazy Pete

I didn't think I was bashing any one, he asked for opinions and we gave it to him, and not even in a sky tex manor. As for as them coming home from 150km that's only around 90 miles, just a training toss. In the first post he asked about long distance, let us know how they do from 500 mi. and I do agree it is a very pretty bird. 

The only reason we race is to win and if some people say the only do it for fun, they are just kidding there self. It's human nature to compete, we all want to win.
Dave


----------



## re lee

People have crossed bred race birds for years How do you think all the different color lines were put in the race birds. Cross breeding for color. Not all but plenty. Then I remember back in the early 1970 some people back east thought that if they crossed new york flights into there race birds The race birds would fly higher and catch better winds doing better in the races. Most All rare colored homers have been crossed bred. Now We all know that you have to rebuild strenghs after you cross breed any breed type And that takes a few years . Yes people want to win races. But Winning should be looked at as losing is If you win good if you lost good learn from it And there are far more races lost then ever won. As ONE BIRD wins the race. But if the race had just 100 birds in it that means 99 lost


----------



## Crazy Pete

Well put re lee, but I'll stick with crossing my Fabry's with HVR's.
Dave


----------



## NZ Pigeon

spirit wings said:


> I don't know why anyone would "bash" you.. I for one would love to have that cross loft flying around my home.. but I only have birds I fly for my own enjoyment around the loft so the homer purebreed is not as important. *not sure what the point is of taking out pure homer and then trying to put it back... but the cross is a pretty bird*.


As they have said they want birds that look like German owls but have good homing ability


----------



## re lee

Crazy Pete said:


> Well put re lee, but I'll stick with crossing my Fabry's with HVR's.
> Dave


GOOD IDEA That way you just breed for the races And not for looks or color


----------



## sev3ns0uls

NZ Pigeon said:


> As they have said they want birds that look like German owls but have good homing ability


Yes, a beauty bird with homing trait also A eye catcher and a racer. but remember friends, im not trying to create or introduce a new breed, I just found that these hybrids are such beautiful birds. They will make my life happy seeing these beautiful bird at my loft.

Also I like to add something that i just found out about color homing pigeon recently. those color racing homer RR, RY, RW, khaki, these color racer must have gone through some kind of crossbreeding in the past to get what they are today. Its been mention that racing pigeon in the last 50-100 years is very distinctive from the present one. 

So i have to agree with boneyrajan.k saying that *"In 100 years,the racing homers will look entirely different from the present ones"*

who knows, maybe if these hybrid got popular enough, breeders will try new thing...and evolution will play its part. sorry a little off topic.


----------



## sev3ns0uls

Crazy Pete said:


> Well put re lee, but I'll stick with crossing my Fabry's with HVR's.
> Dave


whats a Fabry and HVR?


----------



## honeyrobber

I say make what crosses you wish and loft fly them any that get lost needed to be lost from this first generation. breed your different crosses together and train these being a bit gentle on distances. The ones that can come home make your breeders for the next generation. Pair the birds to try and get all the traits you want in the same bird. Each gen train them and select again. As far as making a racing homer that can win races doubtful. Having a pretty pigeon that homes very easily done in about 3-5 gens from what I have read as some people in the dove release use a hybed of a garden and homer for some of the close up hand held birds. Fewer of these birds make it home than the pure white homers and the numbers get worse as you go farther from home. Like someone else said alot of birds can follow real homers home. Just remember you are crossing a racing greyhound with a non working type dog like poms. You may like what they look like but it will take many years to get something that can win races and look like you want it if it was even possible. Form and function have to work together to be a working group bird or dog.


----------



## Crazy Pete

Fabry and HVR are just a strain of racing homer that are long distance birds.
Dave


----------



## jaelyn loft

you might be happy with some saddle homers


----------



## rudolph.est

I just need to point out that not all the 'rare' colored racing homers were cross bred to introduce the color. Recessive opal as well as cherry are almost exclusively found in homers, and lemon (or extreme dilute) was also first found in South African homer stock.

The original breeds from which homers were created include the Antwerp Smerle, French Cumulet, English Carrier, Dragoon, and the Horseman. These breed all contributed some of the rare color genes still found in homers today. Smerles contributed recessive red and dilute, as well as feathered legs and crests. English Carriers contributed homing ability, spread and dilute. Dragoon contributed grizzle and a compact body type and strong beak. The cumulet contributed recessive red as well as white and the traits for endurance.

Homers are not the only birds that have homing ability. Egyptian swifts compete rather well with homers in short distance races. As such I don't see why you couldn't breed a good 'homing' pigeon with whatever traits you like. The key is: selection, selection, selection! As long as you keep the best looking birds with good homing ability and endurance, anything is possible.


----------



## blongboy

rudolph.est said:


> I just need to point out that not all the 'rare' colored racing homers were cross bred to introduce the color. Recessive opal as well as cherry are almost exclusively found in homers, and lemon (or extreme dilute) was also first found in South African homer stock.
> 
> The original breeds from which homers were created include the Antwerp Smerle, French Cumulet, English Carrier, Dragoon, and the Horseman. These breed all contributed some of the rare color genes still found in homers today. Smerles contributed recessive red and dilute, as well as feathered legs and crests. English Carriers contributed homing ability, spread and dilute. Dragoon contributed grizzle and a compact body type and strong beak. The cumulet contributed recessive red as well as white and the traits for endurance.
> 
> Homers are not the only birds that have homing ability. Egyptian swifts compete rather well with homers in short distance races. As such I don't see why you couldn't breed a good 'homing' pigeon with whatever traits you like. The key is: selection, selection, selection! As long as you keep the best looking birds with good homing ability and endurance, anything is possible.


i agree 100% ... my thought on this, get a good homer hen ..to work with....maybe one day when i get back into pigeon ..i can buy some from u if u sell


----------



## sev3ns0uls

right now i have a 08 racing hen (Trenton base, according to Dennish K. she is from a long distance family) and an 08 old frill cock which i plan to pair up for this spring. Im excited to see what i will get. 

Yes Saddle are pretty but I dont favor their long beak. Although some have short beak too.


----------



## APF_LOFT

we all know that racing homer is not pure it is a combination of different breed of pigeons hehe


----------



## APF_LOFT

Crazy Pete said:


> He got lucky, any bird can follow.
> Dave


what about fantail can they follow? hehehe


----------



## NZ Pigeon

APF_LOFT said:


> we all know that racing homer is not pure it is a combination of different breed of pigeons hehe



Agreed - We could say that about almost any breed I guess.


----------



## rudolph.est

APF_LOFT said:


> what about fantail can they follow? hehehe


My garden fantails used to follow my homer youngsters on 5 - 10 km tosses without any problem. Since they aren't good fliers, I never took them further than that. 

The fantails never showed any ill effects from getting a little exercise.


----------



## rudolph.est

NZ Pigeon said:


> Agreed - We could say that about almost any breed I guess.


Correct, all breeds had to start somewhere right!

Some breeds are very old, and their origins are lost in a thousand years or more of history, but homers are probably the youngest 'breed' by far.

The performance of homers is not only linked to homing ability though. Performance comes from endurance and stamina, which are very complex traits and aren't just genetic, but influenced by condition and environment to a large extent.

I've often thought we do not give our show birds enough credit for homing ability. Many of the German color pigeons were originally kept as field pigeons, and would fly a hundred kilometers to find food, and return to their coop without a problem. Similarly, feral birds often have to travel some distance from their roosts to find food and water. Obviously, homing instinct is alive and well in these birds.

A last comment: my archangel x barb crosses have successfully returned from 30 km single tosses, no sweat. They may take a little longer to get home than the young homers, but they obviously have some homing ability to be able to do that.


----------



## KNEEGAH

sev3ns0uls said:


> Before anyone start bashing me, i want to clarify my purpose first.
> I love the hybrid between a german owl(santinette) cross a racing homer. Their off spring are the most beautiful birds I ever seen. Short beak with a perfect wattle and cute round eyes with a gorgeous body built. Even their color appearances are pretty neat. It just a beauty! Yes, I know that cross breeding will lead to losing homing ability but i dont plan to race my homer yet. all i want is to have beautiful bird at my loft.
> 
> So let say if i cross breed a German owl with a racing homer and then breed the cross offspring to another pure racing homer or inbreed to the racing homer parent, will i get a pure homer offspring back from it?
> 
> Or if if i breed a cross breed with the another same cross breed, will i get a pure homer or pure german owl from it?
> 
> your knowledge will be much appreciated!
> 
> This is a beauty!




HELLO CAN YOU TELL ME IF THE GERMAN OWL IS THE MOM OR DAD? WHICH ONE IS RACING THE HEN OR COCK?? WHICH ONE IS GERMAN OWL PLS ANSWER I HAVE THE SAME ISSUE BUT MINE IS STILL SITTING ON EGGS!


----------



## awf

Crazy Pete said:


> He got lucky, any bird can follow.
> Dave


I raised Damascene at one time. They would home from 75-80 miles regularly.......


----------



## beachwood45789

Hi, when i was 13 yo there was a racing tipplet club it was called the sunrise tipplet club it was in east newyork brooklyn where mike tyson was born they would race tipplets from 10 mile races to 100 mile races there were guys i knew that trained newyork flying flights out to 100 miles when i was 14 i worked for the owner of a pet shop that sold only pigeons he had a loft on bedford ave we had flights bald heads tipplets a little of everything i took care of them over a 150 birds there was maybe 60 lofts in my area none more than 2 miles away on saturday we would have races we did not race far the longest race was from coney island and it was 10 miles, we would write down 5 different place to race from like van cortland park the worlds fair site in queens prospect park put them in a hat and someone picks a paper and thats were we raced that day you could use any type of pigeon except a homer the 1st bird brought in the pet shop was the winner and also in 1971 when i got out of the army i built a loft on the highest roof around it was an apartment house with 24 apartments in the building, when i had a small stock flying the people in the building started coming up on the roof with there kids to watch the birds in about 3 weeks half the people in the building wanted me to buy some birds for them i brought birds for everyone and be for you know it we started to race against each other every saturday, so you see i was the 1st person to ever have a one loft race in the usa


----------

