# New King



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I just received another big white banded King Pigeon.
He is in very poor condition. He is emaciated and covered in lice, with black dirt spots on him, limping with a black tip of a toe, but all that doesn't worry me as the fact he didn't eat or drink at the finder's and so far (in the past two hours) has had no droppings. After giving him 10cc's of water, still no droppings so I decided to give him some normal saline sq, hope I did it right as this was the first time I did this in a bird, anyways, I checked him out more and I found his mouth is lined with some black substance which smells of dried blood. He all smells bloody. 
I also found a hole in the back of his neck, seem quite older, but still deep. As he started struggling I quit the examination and let him rest for now. I cleaned the wound with sterile water and covered it with neosporin.
If he makes it through the night, I need some ideas as of what to do next. 

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> I just received another big white banded King Pigeon.
> He is in very poor condition. He is emaciated and covered in lice, with black dirt spots on him, limping with a black tip of a toe, but all that doesn't worry me as the fact he didn't eat or drink at the finder's and so far (in the past two hours) has had no droppings. After giving him 10cc's of water, still no droppings so I decided to give him some normal saline sq, hope I did it right as this was the first time I did this in a bird, anyways, I checked him out more and I found his mouth is lined with some black substance which smells of dried blood. He all smells bloody.
> I also found a hole in the back of his neck, seem quite older, but still deep. As he started struggling I quit the examination and let him rest for now. I cleaned the wound with sterile water and covered it with neosporin.
> If he makes it through the night, I need some ideas as of what to do next.
> ...




Hi Reti,


I would consider to 'tube' in a good amount of body-temperature rehydration electolytes...say 30cc every two hours or so if he's a Big-Boy...

If he is willing to drink, so much the better, but do not gove 'Water'...make it rehydration-eletrolytes...

...and do that till late morning tomorrow, a regular sixe feral can drink a full Tea Cup worth in half a day, or drink more than that, so...however much bigger he is than a feral of 300 grams, tube in or get him to drink at least that much over the next 12 hours...and then move on to tube feeding some thin formula for a day or two, and see if he is interested to peck small whole Seeds after two days of 'formula' feeds...


If you have any general antibiotics, might be good to get him going on those...


See if there is anything in his Crop, which should be 'empty', but if it is not empty, see what you can tell about what is in it...and, make the electrolytes an ACV sort if his Crop has old stuff in it which needs to move on...


Keep him definitely 'warm" of course...

You want to see plenty of nice 'white' we may hope, Urates comeing through before asking him to be digesting anything...might get some old stale poos gomring through too...


You could mix a little concentrated Fruit Juice, 'Cherry' or 'Berry' anyway, with the eletrolytes...give him a few easy calories and a little nourishment for now...but if he's badly dehydrated, getting him re-hydrated of course is crucial before much else can be done...

Potasium Salts if you have any, like for people who use 'Salt Substitute'...good pinch of that, if not then use Table Salt, and, a good pinch of Sugar...dissolved in Water, warmed and tubed in or have him drink it if he will...


Or go to the Grocery Store or Drug Store, and get the stuff they sell for people-babys, comes in a quart...


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Phil.
I gave him Cipro last night, I forgot to mention. His crop is empty and yes, he is a big boy, over 300gr even though skinny.
No real poops over night, just one tiny white output. Guess I will withold any feedings for now until I have a good amount of at least urine. He doesn't stand up and sits puffed up on the heating pad. Honestly I didn't think he was going to make the night. 
The crop seems empty. Will get some fruit juice to have ready for later.
My question is, do I hydrate him by mouth or should I continue the subcutaneous hydration?

Thanks again

Reti


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Reti,

I hope you can pull this guy through. Poor fellow, sounds like he has been through h***. Keep us posted on how he is doing. I was so glad to read he made it through the night.

Margaret


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Both. It's pretty worrisome if the kidneys aren't putting much of anything through although they sometimes get the water-reclamation thing going so strongly that you don't see much until they're just about over-rehydrated again. Of course, he may have internal injuries but there's nothing for it but to try.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I too would do both But particularly the SQ. To me, that is the very best way to get the fluids in a pigeon as sick as this one seems to be.

I sure hope the big guy makes it. His weight is worrisome but if he can survive this initial injury you can worry about putting more weight on him later. Our Crystal weighed around 300 when we got her in, I think August, and now weighs a whopping 560+.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for your input. 
Big Guy had three poops, neon-green with tons of urates. I have been hydrating him sq and po with water/salt/sugar every two hours so it seems to be working. I don't dare to feed him yet, maybe tonight. 
I didn't notice any other external injuries.
Unfortunately I have to go out this afternoon, I hate to do that when I have such sick birds.

Reti


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Poor baby  Sure hope he makes it. Sounds like you must be doing okay for him as at least he's hanging in there. Good luck.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Are the urates nice and white? If the neon green is only a blob of bile then go ahead and give him about 10 cc of thin Kaytee and let's see if it goes through.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The urates are white and the green is just a bit. I guess he is starving. I will give him then a dilute Harrison's (don't have kaytee, but Harrison's is much better I think).
I hate to let him starve till I will be back tonight.

Poor thing must have fallen face down into his poop as he has a big green stain on his forehead.

Thanks for the help.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm so sorry to hear the condition of your latest patient, I hope he does survive. I'm sure he is happy to get some real care and comfort now, please update when you can.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I heard the metion of antibiotics...and personally, I'm not so sure if that would be too good right now. Wouldn't that just stress his system even more?


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

The poor guy is lucky to have landed in your caring arms, Reti! It does sound like he's had a pretty rough time.  I hope he continues to do better and recovers soon.


----------



## PixieTJ (Dec 4, 2007)

Goodness Reti,

Sending healing thoughts to you both. Poor guy. I know he will receive excellent care with you.


----------



## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Hope the little guy is fairing better this evening Reti -- sending positive thoughts & {{{{hugs}}}}.

Dez


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I heard the metion of antibiotics...and personally, I'm not so sure if that would be too good right now. Wouldn't that just stress his system even more?



Hey Becky

You're absolutely right that antibiotics do stress the system but any time a bird has an open wound such as Reti described, an antibiotic would be in order.


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hey Becky
> 
> You're absolutely right that antibiotics do stress the system but any time a bird has an open wound such as Reti described, an antibiotic would be in order.




Yahhhhh...and for old nasty wounds which are still open...I'd say some carefully elected antibiotic regimen would be best..in addition of course to whatever topical debriding and sluicing and whatever else the injury seems to call for.

I have never seen any reason to feel that an antibiotic regimen stresses them, unless they are truely already leaning way over the yawning grave...and definitely, when they are fighting a systemic infection, when you are lucky enough to select the right antibiotic, you can see them perk up like a droopy Plant that finally got watered...

It's kind of a toss up maybe, sometimes, as to whether one should wait a day or two, or three even, with 'old' injurys...to get the Bird definitely rehydrated, and onto a day or two of thin chow first, get the poops happenning, get his system back 'on line' so to speak...and then start the Antibiotics...and, as for me, if I think we can get away with it, that is my usual choice.

So, as for general over-views, I'd say, when confronting old injurys which may ( or may not ) have caused a low grade systemic infection, my feeling is get the Bird rehydrated definitely and thoroughly first, and then progressively fed thin nutritious formulas and see how they manage, and by day three or so, if one is still concerned about a systemic infection, then get hopping on the Anti-biotics.


If we think a systemic infection IS life threatening already, and that the Bird is going 'down' from that ( rather than being down from starvation and dehydraiton incidental to injury ) then consider to start the Antibiotics after 12 hours of rehydration with electolytes...and move on a.s.a.p to the thin chow feeds and get those poops happening.

This would be my own general over-view of these sorts of matters.


And too, electing the 'right' Antibiotic or other Medicine for whatever sort of bacterial or other troubles the Bird has, is of course not always an easy matter, and I have seen sheer blind luck work very well, and hours of pacing and heavy brooding and rational review, result in me making a non-meritorious choice...so...


Grab that 'tube' ! Keep getting those eletrolytes into him...and on to the thin chow, regardless of what else..! and if all seems well enough, then sure, by tonight late, once you see some poops getting made which are from the 'new' foods/formula, start the antibiotics if you like...

But, which antibiotic would it be?


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all so much for your advice, kind words and well wishes. 
I was dreading to come home to a dead bird, but Big Guy actually seems a little better. The formula is going through, plenty of poops and he looks much more alert. He also tried to eat seeds, as I found a lot scattered, I don't know if he actually ate any, but that he showed interest is a good thing.
He is on Cipro and neosporin on the wound. The fact that the wound has a lot of dried blood puts him at risk for infection as blood is a good environment for bacteria to grow, that is why I had to start him on antibiotic. 
Did I mention that he also has a broken leg?
Anyways, I hope he makes it through another night.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd say he's got a good shot. Sounds like he's more hurt and low on reserves than sick per se. However, when they get like that, the opportunistic infections tend to take over.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> I'd say he's got a good shot. Sounds like he's more hurt and low on reserves than sick per se. However, when they get like that, the opportunistic infections tend to take over.
> 
> Pidgey


What do you suggest I do about it? 
I will continue the Cipro it's full course, anything else?
I guess he was starved and severely dehydrated when I got him and like you said, it is mostly due to his injuries that he is in such bad shape.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, I'd just keep on doing what you're doing. If you slowly increase the formula and keep getting more poop and more alertness, then you're on the right road. I'd continue the Baytril, too. Pictures?

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thank you all so much for your advice, kind words and well wishes.
> I was dreading to come home to a dead bird, but Big Guy actually seems a little better. The formula is going through, plenty of poops and he looks much more alert. He also tried to eat seeds, as I found a lot scattered, I don't know if he actually ate any, but that he showed interest is a good thing.
> He is on Cipro and neosporin on the wound. The fact that the wound has a lot of dried blood puts him at risk for infection as blood is a good environment for bacteria to grow, that is why I had to start him on antibiotic.
> Did I mention that he also has a broken leg?
> ...



Hi Reti, 


Glad to hear is is perking up..!


Maybe tomorrow evening, if he is not pecking small whole Seeds on his own with encouragements...you could 'Seed-Pop' using small whole Seeds.


It is very easy, and a 'pinch' worth tumble down the chute nicely...and they are instantly ready for the next 'pinch' worth of them.


So long as he is not suffering a Respiratory infection where his Trachea is immodestly dialated and unable to close, this is a nice way to get some real Seeds into them, and the small size Seeds will be fine for a newly re-activated Digestive System to countenance, and, welcome.


Do you have any 'Nutrical'..?


I like it a lot for adding heavily to any formula intended for the frail or just coming 'back'...as well as in general...


He is a strong fellow to have made it this far, and, for all we know, he likely has dealt with whatever infections there were, pretty well just on his own.

Does anything 'look' infected at the injury/wound site?

Any bas smells from there?

If not, likely he's fine on that score...while systemically is of course a different matter, harder to say about, especially if mild or of a low order.


Far as I know, Blood, or Scabs, or dried Blood are 'antibacterial' so long as they are on their owner, and are fine to leave be...and I myself recall no infections of of even dirty wounds which seemed in any way associated with the Blood accrued around them, on me or on Birds...

Bacteria introduced when the injury happenned, are another thing ( bites and so on, punctures by contaminated objects and so on...and in my experience, 'Neosporin' as you are using, or, a dash of 'Nitrofurizone' powder tidys up those things very easily and fast, when they are infected. )


Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He is definately better, working on his feathers right now.
He desperately needs a dawn bath but will wait another day or two until I am sure he can deal with the stress.

Phil, circulating own blood is sort of antibacterial because of the active antibodies it has, but dried old blood not so. It is actually used in some cultures cause germs grow so well on it.

Here is a pic of Big Guy.

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Forgot to mention, poops are nice today and formed as you can see in the pic.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I'm SO glad  to hear the update, been thinking of him. 

I'm sure your'e giving "BigGuy" lots of probiotics, ACV, to re-establish the good bacteria he so desperately needs. I would get him on the garlic caps-as soon as he is stable-to purify the blood. I would clean his liver too, once he is stable, turmeric, barley and milk thistle.

Wonder what happened to him.....if he could only talk....

Thanks for all your wonderful care, I'm sure that is why he is responding so quickly.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Treesa, he gets yogurt with the formula. No ACV for now as I add digestive enzymes from Foy's to the water which he is not drinking anyways.

Phil, I have no nutrical, neve found it in the pet stores. But my vet recommends Harrison's formula for sick birds as it has everything needed in it. I also give him enzymes and a bit of yogurt for probiotics.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Have you splinted the broken leg?

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Have you splinted the broken leg?
> 
> Pidgey



No, I haven't. The leg was the least of my/his worries so somehow I just didn't think of doing anything about it.
Now it might be too late, but considering he is in a smallish cage with lots of towels and he is not moving around I might just leave it alone.

Reti


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, don't know if you have a Petsmart in Miami but you could try there for the Nutrical. It is probably in the dog supply area. Comes in a box about the size of toothpaste box. We have used it many years and it really helps get some added calories in them.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a pitiful looking pigeon. I'm so glad he is feeling some better, Reti. Poor bird!

Terry


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Oh Terry, he looks much better in the pic than when I got him. When he got here he couldn't even keep his eyes open, much less stand on his feet.

Maggie, I haven't been to Petsmart in a while but will try to make an exception. Petsupermarket doesn't have it.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Reti, don't know if you have a Petsmart in Miami but you could try there for the Nutrical. It is probably in the dog supply area. Comes in a box about the size of toothpaste box. We have used it many years and it really helps get some added calories in them.



Yes, comes in a 'Tube'...is found in the puppy-kitten Isle or section.


Dissolves readily in formla...


Any 'Petsmart' or the likes carries it, or, easy to order on-line with a simple 'google' or two.


Well worth having ( keep refrigerated of course, once opened! ) to add to the formula of any critical, frail, or very young Birds/Pigeons...


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Good going Reti..!


So glad to hear things are improving so fast..!


The Leg...


Do see what you can determine as for what sort of break it is, and where...and if it is not aligned as it is and reasonably stable on it's own, then do consider to make a little padded splint and tape it on so it will mend decently and not end up crooked or not-mending...

Happy to discuss this once you find where the break is and what kind it is.

Looks like you got him nicely over the most critical hurdles!...and now can address the remaining issue(s).


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The break seems to be in the femur, in the middle portion. I felt some crepitation but seems aligned and today he tried to put the foot down but must be still painful. 
I will address this issue when Lee gets home as I need someone to hold the bird. He is big and not exactly cooperative.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Oh good then...

Yes, he is a BIG BOY alright, and now that he is feeling better, I bet he can be a handfull...!


Good luck with the Leg..!


Put a Sock over his Head, for the handling part and so on...that helps them decide to be less struggling.


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Put a Sock over his Head, for the handling part and so on...that helps them decide to be less struggling.
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v


HUh. Never thought of that. 
Do you have a pic of a sling or something? 
When I tried to wrap Troy's leg, the bandage kept on coming off.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Make sure to use a clean sock as a dirty one might be toxic. 

Well, if you really mean the femur and not the tibiotarsus, then there's not a lot of way of splinting it. Those are usually kinda' bad (true femur breaks) and if the bird doesn't rest the thing on its own then you're usually looking at external fixation including pins and wires.

Pidgey


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 



Have-a-look at...


http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Skeleton.html



broken Femurs proper, are rather hard to manage, since most of their length is in fact beneathj the bird;s skin there on their side, and hence impossible to Splint... but being they have more muscle or tissue around them, they can get by very well with no external splint, so long as the Leg can be rested, so yeahhhh, if it is the Femur, then a Sling might be a good way to go, or a Towell do-Nut or "U" if he will stay put for two weeks or so...or even tape the Leg 'up' possibly so he can not put any weight on it...and that will keep him 'put'...!


If it is ths Tibiotarsus, depending on where the break is, one can make a very good Splint from a plastic spoon or Fork handle...so, let us know which Bone it is, and we'll see what shakes from there...


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I will look for a clean sock, Pidgey.

Ooops, it is the tibiotarsus, sorry about that.
I didn't do the splint as he doesn't look good at all tonight.
He is laying down all puffed and sleeping. All day he only had a few strings of tiny green poops (overnight he had had some great ones) I am hoping he will feel better in the morning.

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Well, he is still doing very poorly. He won't eat or move around. I guess the Cipro isn't working for what he has.
He is more alert, but that is pretty much it.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Add Metronidazole.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Add Metronidazole.
> 
> Pidgey



You think Pegosan would work? It contains Amprolium, Azanidazole and Ethacridinlactat.
I do have metronidazole too.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I was thinking of another possible side-effect of Metronidazole that might be helpful as well as the possibility of some internal canker. Seems like Kings don't have the robust immune system that most other pigeons do. Kinda' like Runts.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It sure couldn't hurt to treat for Coccidiosis as well, though.

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Pidgey, I gave him Flagyl. I don't think I have Sulfatrim for coccidia and since I started the Flagyl I won't give the Pegosan for now.
Will try to get to my vets for some Sulfa.

BTW, bad news, my vet is leaving for about a year. I am very upset and don't know what I will do when I will need labs and surgeries.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 



What antibiotics do you have all tolled, to choose from?


When he was run-down, he might have picked up something which is gaining on him, which the Baytril is not eliminating...so...maybe we-all can wonder on this, and if you tell us what all you have to choose from...something might stand out as a candidate...


I run into this too of course, when the Antibiotic I am using probably helped with one sort of illness, while somehting else starts gaining, or has been gaining...so...


Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sometimes I have had a sick one who was not responding to Baytril...and, once I would decide they were sinking instead of getting better I switch to Oxytetracycline, or Doxycycline, or a "4-in-1" combo...

Sometimes I start them on one of those instead of Baytril...


But either way, I figure if after two days or three, if I am not seeing a definite improvement, maybe I best try something else...and, if I hit on the 'right' one, usually there is no ambiguity as for them appearing to improve...it can show pretty fast...


How the heck to know what we are up against with these things..?

Even a good Vet might not guess or evaluate to any definite diagnosis much of the time...


The "4-in-1" combo is often a good one to have on hand...as are the others...


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have Ampicillin from Foy's, and Pegosan as mentioned. I also have antifungals and dewormers. 
I really don't know what to give him and he seems very sick. He is worse this morning sitting all puffed in a corner.
Last night I fed him pellets and his poops are nice (when feeding formula they are runny). 

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti,


Ohhhhhhhh so sorry this is happening

...here's my intuition...

Doxycyline 

Oxytetracycline

Erythromycin

These are good 'Guns' for something like this where we just do not know what the illness or infection-kind is. And there are many of course which Batryl is not effective against.

Farm and Feed Stores might be worth a try...


Or, can you get to a Vet? Any kind of Vet really would do. An initial injection would be best, followed up with the oral/water borne...and of course you could get the meds there from the Vet...

If I had to pick one of the three...I think I am leaning to Erythromycin...with Doxycycline as a close second, and Oxytetracycline as a close third...as for what to try.


Good luck..!


I think we both know there is not likely much time left, so, any 'halfway-good' guess at this point, as for what-to-do, is one more than none...and is well worth trying.

If the right Medicine is elected, there should be unambiguous improvement pretty fast...


Are there some other Pigeontalk members within reasonable driving distance to you? Who might have some Meds in case you can not find any Vet for a fast appointment? Or, find a Farm and Feed Store?



Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't know of any farm or feed stores but I can get any med for humans from my dr.
I do have tetracycline and doxy but no idea of how to mix the tetra and how much to give. I have 500mg tablets. I have doxy too I can mix that one, I have the instruction.
As for vets, trust me no one in Miami other than the clinic where I used to work know pigeons. I know it from all the clients who used to come in with their birds in very bad shape even after trying the other two vets. They have no clue to treat a bird. One of them refers pigeons to me.
The closest is in Ft. Lauderdale and she will charge me an arm and a leg to treat a bird.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> I don't know of any farm or feed stores but I can get any med for humans from my dr.
> I do have tetracycline and doxy but no idea of how to mix the tetra and how much to give. I have 500mg tablets. I have doxy too I can mix that one, I have the instruction.
> As for vets, trust me no one in Miami other than the clinic where I used to work know pigeons. I know it from all the clients who used to come in with their birds in very bad shape even after trying the other two vets. They have no clue to treat a bird. One of them refers pigeons to me.
> The closest is in Ft. Lauderdale and she will charge me an arm and a leg to treat a bird.
> ...




Hi Reti,



Are any of your Antibiotics an injectible kind? And, are you familiar with giving an injection?


No Erythomycin?


If not then...the Doxycycline you do have...what form is it in?



Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The doxy is powder. I have Baytril injectable.
Now, I just fed him and he was starved, he picked the pellets from my hand, when I put the dish of food in front of him he won't eat, but when I put it in his beak he willopen wide, grab it and swllow, he ate so much, I had to stop as he ate way too much. He won't drink on his own either.
I put him on the floor and he just sat down. His leg is ok, now it seems like both are weak. He is not blind as he reacts when I get close to him.
When he is sitting he pecks the towel rapidly like he is trying to eat. Weird behavior, never had something like this before.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 



Well, a good meal is a good thing for him I'd say..!


he wants to eat, but whatever illness he has is messing with him...


If the Baytril was not seeing him improve, or, if the Baytril was seeing him decline...then, I think the "Doxy" is probably a good choice to try.


If it was me, I would mix up a Quart then, double strangth, and mark the container so that is clearly seen "DOXY-2 X" or something...that way you can add it 50-50 to any other liquid and come out with some convenient mixes.


Mix up some Eletrolytes...

Add 50-50 Electolytes and Doxycycline solution in a Tea Cup or something, even make it 60 Doxy, 40 electolytes for the first and second rounds...warm it so it is body temp...and tube in a good amount, and again in a couple or three hours...especially if he has not been interested to drink on his own, this would be good way to go, both for his hydration, and, for getting the Meds in there in a nice comfortable way.


Since about all we have to go on is that he is going 'down', and the Baytril was not effecting any appearent resolution, this then would seem to me to be a reasonable course of action.

If the Doxy is helping you should see some improvment my late tonight I would think, or, by the morrow anyway...and sometimes they can resond in just a few hours even...so...


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I go and get the doxy ready for him. I will stop the Baytril and continue with doxy and Flagyl.
He never stopped pecking the towel, this behavior is new, and I don't know what's up with this.
But after this good meal he seems much better and lively, he also moved away from the heat lamp.

Thanks Phil.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi reti, 


He's a big Boy, and if he was not drinking enough there for a few days, it is important that you make sure to get him gradually rehydrated, and, with electrolytes if possible, being generous in tubing in, with sessions spaced every few hours, so long as his system seems to be processing the formula and or liquids well...


If you are going to go with the 'Doxy', please consider to mix it as I had described, so he is getting it AND his electolytes at the same time, and with no compromise on medicine dose for so much every 24 hours as per his weight.

Whether you mix a Pint or Quart of Medicine-in-Water, review the dose as for what it should be in 24 hours, for his weight, and make the batch accoringly so what he will get in him of the liquid all tolled, will have the right amount of meds in it for him, for a given time frame.


Some of what you have been seeing may have been due to dehydration, which can have odd effects on their co-ordination and poise and ability to keep warm and to peck and everything...so...bear that in mind with him...


If he is processing his formula or other food well, and if he remains intersetd in food, then I'd say keep feeding him...small meals often is fine, Seeds, Formula...both would be great...but he needs the calories and nutrients, and he is interested so far, so...I'd say go for the gusto there in the chow department...


Wishing you two a fast and happy success in his getting over this..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Phil,
I mixed the doxy with pedialyte and I am giving him 5cc's every couple of hours.
When I got him I gave him 15cc's and in an hours another 15.
Then he was on formula 30 cc's 3 times a day.
Now, I see he tolerates and likes the pellets (bird pellets) so I give him about 30 soaked in water and another 5cc's water by syringe three times a day and in between another 5cc's as I mentioned. The pellets have vitamins and everything else a bird would need. I give him Harrison's Hi-Potency pellets and Pretty bird pellets. So, nitrition wise he should be fine.
If he is so hungry I don't know why he wouldn't eat on his own. He has seeds right in front of him.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Sounds pretty good to me...even got ME hungry now..! 


Illness or dehydration can both throw them off in various ways where just being able to Peck normally is sometimes a problem...I do not know why, but I have seen it often enough, even with Pigeons who looked pretty allright in every way, but who were just a 'little' under-the-weather with something.



What is dangerous with this too, is we may casually see them pecking, and over a few days, or a week, take for granted they are eating, when their pecking is not really getting anything at all...and by then, they are running on empty.


So, lastly, just to make sure, since this is an easy one to not be clear on sometimes - 

I'd say double check that the amount of medicine he WILL get in 24 hours, matches well with what his dose should be for his weight...and, if you like, err slightly on him getting a little more even, in the first 12 hours or so, just to get things going with it.


Best wishes..!

Sure hope this clears things up for him..!



Phil
l v


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Reti, 


Lets run a fast review real quick - 


Are you sure his Baytril dose was right for his weight, as far as how much he was actually getting in him every 24 hours?

And...

How long was he on it?


He was run down, had old nasty injurys showing local and probably systemic infection, which had not been treated yet till you got him...and he was way underweight, and had not been eating or drinking anywhere near enough for himself, prior to your getting him, yes?


And you got him started on Baytril...and...


Phil
l v


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Reti, can't offer any advice. I just hope and pray your little big guy is doing better after a good feed and some sleep.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you FSZ. He seems a little better today, not puffed and more alert.
Phil, I guestimated his weight around 300gr. He wouldn't stand still on the scale but it showed about that weight.
I gave him Cipro 0.3cc's twice a day which should be correct as per vet. I started it on Monday night when I got him. Thursday I addet Flagyl. Yesterday stopped the Cipro and started doxycycline.
His leg is not swollen and both legs seem the same, but when he tries to stand he falls forward. He moves away from the heating lamp though when he seems to be getting too warm, so he can move around a bit when necessary.
His wound ddidn't seem really infected, just had dried blood on it, lots of blood and after washing it it showed a clean hole, going pretty deep. Seems to be closing now, but still can see some undelying tissue, which looks clean, no signs of infection. The scat got rid of the lice which he was covered with.
Poops are great when he is eating the pellets.
I am glad to see him grooming his feathers now, so he is better this morning.


Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Reti,

I'm glad he is doing a bit better. I hope he makes a full recovery soon.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks Treesa, I think he will eventually.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> Thank you FSZ. He seems a little better today, not puffed and more alert.
> Phil, I guestimated his weight around 300gr. He wouldn't stand still on the scale but it showed about that weight.
> I gave him Cipro 0.3cc's twice a day which should be correct as per vet. I started it on Monday night when I got him. Thursday I addet Flagyl. Yesterday stopped the Cipro and started doxycycline.
> His leg is not swollen and both legs seem the same, but when he tries to stand he falls forward. He moves away from the heating lamp though when he seems to be getting too warm, so he can move around a bit when necessary.
> ...




Hi Reti,



Oh! Very glad to hear he is preening now...


They can fall forward from weakness, whether occasioned from privation or illness or both...and of course the Leg is a factor too...

I did not know he was so 'light'..! I thought he was twice that heavy, at least!


Good luck!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Goodness, I underestimated his weight. He is 554gr so I underdosed him with the meds too. I corected it now but I wonder if the CIpro might have worked if the dose was right.

Reti


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Reti said:


> Goodness, I underestimated his weight. He is 554gr so I underdosed him with the meds too. I corected it now but I wonder if the CIpro might have worked if the dose was right.
> 
> Reti



Hi Reti, 


It's all part of the fun..!


Might have, you never know...


Cipro likely would have helped even if under-dosed...but, maybe, consider to run him through again on the right dose and regimen-duration, since under-dosing in theory would tend to breed Organisms who have learned to tolerate or shrug-off the 'light' dose, while killing off those who could not, and these 'survivors' would then be dealt with on the 'clean up run' of the right dose being given for a fresh course of whatever, five days or six I s'pose...


May as well run us through the dose you feel is right, so we can double check.

We should never feel shy to do so, since figuring doses is often liable to confusion or error...

I know it is for me.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

So I start him back on the Cipro 0.55cc's twice a day? Flagyl should be the same and I have to look up the doxycycline. The Cipro and Flagyl are mixed already.

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Ten days later and he is still not doing good. I think he might have PMV. He tried to fly a bit the other dy and he flew backwards and crashed. And now he can't walk at all. He can stand for a couple of seconds and that's it. His legs are not swollen they are just weak.

Reti


----------



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Reti,

I'm sorry to hear that he is not doing well. Sounds like this might be a long haul of giving him supportive treatment. Given his symptoms, PMV is a likely culprit with whatever else opportunistic bugs get going. I'm sending good and healing thoughts for him.

Margaret


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Deja Vu? Didn't you have another white king that started with similar symptoms, if not the wounds?

Pidgey


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Pidgey said:


> Deja Vu? Didn't you have another white king that started with similar symptoms, if not the wounds?
> 
> Pidgey



You mean Louis? Yeah, he was laying all bent from spasticity for two weeks, sleeping all the time and then it took him about three months to recover.
And King Krames had also symptoms but not sure if it was PMV ir because he flew into the wall.
This guy all he has is weakness in his legs and he won't eat, not even attempt to eat other than out of my hand.

Reti


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Margaret

Reti


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, have you treated him for coccidiosis? We use Sulmet which treats a bunch of things, including cocci. I know we have got some in that couldn't fly and found out they had cocci and after treatment they were good as new. I sure hope he gets better soon.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Reti, have you treated him for coccidiosis? We use Sulmet which treats a bunch of things, including cocci. I know we have got some in that couldn't fly and found out they had cocci and after treatment they were good as new. I sure hope he gets better soon.



Can coccidia present with normal poops?


Reti


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

it can infect your birds for a week or so before affecting their poops. Jedds site is down so go to http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-coccidiosis.html hurry they are going fast... buy tablets if you can. Coccidiosis can spread fast and can be very hard to cure. Get 2 or 3 day shipping if you can financially afford it!


----------



## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Poor guy  . I'm sorry he's not doing well right now, but at least he's still with you and making some attempts to be a "good" patient. Maybe he just loves all that attention so is very persnickity about eating.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reti said:


> Can coccidia present with normal poops?
> 
> 
> Reti


Coccidial oocysts can present in relatively high numbers in what otherwise looks to be normal poop, yes. I've seen them get over that shedding without seeming to be affected.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Reti, I can't remember what the poops liked for those we got in that couldn't fly; but, we had a pretty bad outbreak a few years back in the aviary and the poop ranged from normal to excessively watery. Most of the time though,, I believe, watery poops can suggest coccidia.

Pidgey, thanks for that information.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you all. I'll start him on Pegosan. That's all I have for now.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti,

I would continue to keep him on supportive products if you suspect coccidiosis, especially if his poop seems normal-since he is very sick still. I would not put him on any medication that would put more burden on him if you really havne't diagnosed the issues.

I have had pigeons with very watery poop that filled the bottom of the cage and I had to change the papers hourly. They had the classic symptoms of coccidiosis. I would give some doses of good human grade probiotics and a drop of colloidal silver a day , try that first among the other supportive measures, as well as ACV.


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> Reti,
> 
> I would continue to keep him on supportive products if you suspect coccidiosis, especially if his poop seems normal-since he is very sick still. I would not put him on any medication that would put more burden on him if you really havne't diagnosed the issues.
> 
> I have had pigeons with very watery poop that filled the bottom of the cage and I had to change the papers hourly. They had the classic symptoms of coccidiosis. I would give some doses of good human grade probiotics and a drop of colloidal silver a day , try that first among the other supportive measures, as well as ACV.



Thanks Treesa. Actually I was thinking to see if my vet is in to have a fecal done. (I know he was on vacation, will check if he is back). Maybe even have a full exam done.

Reti


----------



## horsesgot6 (May 30, 2007)

reti 
I Hope your Bird Gets better. He Is A pretty Bird. Good Luck with Him and Hope All Goes Well At The vets.


----------

