# Eggbound - emergency !!!



## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Hello
On Monday evening I picked up a paralysed pigeon and then I realised she is eggbound (the shape of an egg in the vent area is conspicuous). She did drink and eat enthusiastically on Monday, then was quite lively (preening eatind) on Tuesday. I also gave her liquid Calcium (with vitamin D) that day. On Wednesday she seemed more depressed and ate very few seeds. This morning she seemed very subdued, howevr she still drinks water. I have given her 3 warm baths (not today, I didn't want to stress her more), applied olive oil generously to the vent (the surrounding area, not inside). I have her in a very warm (and humid) place. Yesterday I called the avian vet in my area -York, UK- and he said that euthanasia is the only option since even if they removed the egg the oviducts and the nerves would be so damaged that it would happen again (another vet didn't treat pigeons).

I am very sad since I've grown attached to this pigeon (she does make eye contact begging for help) and I feel she may only have 1 or 2 days of life left  . 
I am really desperate for any advice to save her life other than what I've already tried: a)vet b)warm bath c)lubricant d)calcium 

Thank you


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pijifan, 

Please try to administer some type of oil orally...it can be olive, corn or sunflower. Giver her about 1 ml of oil down the throat. This is the only other thing I can think of


Try that and let us know!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Brad's idea could work, it depends really wether the egg is caught in the oviduct or the cloaca. But I would use liquid parafin rather than oil...and try to find another vet quickly! Yes it could happen again but it is not inevitable. There might be a solution to that problem.

I think that a vet can aspirate the contents of the egg so that it collapses and can be removed without breaking and causing egg peritonitis.

Give her some more liquid calcium and try sitting her on a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel so that her underside is warm, that might help relieve any pain that she is in.

And thank you for taking such good care of her! You have done everything right so far.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about the distress this pigeon is in, and I thank you for everything you are doing to try and save this pigeon. You are doing a great job!

You can administer about a half an inch of olive oil in a dropper, down the throat. At this point a half dropper may or may not do the trick, depending on how long the egg has been there. I have saved several birds doing this. If the egg is in the vent area, it is possible she still can get a grip of it and get it out. Is she pooping?

Also, you can sit her on a heating pad, set on low, a towel between her and the pad.

Oops, I almost forgot, a few drops of colloidal silver down the throat is also very beneficial should there be any infection going on. I usually use this in combination for any egg issues.


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## Symbro (Oct 28, 2005)

pigifan said:


> Hello
> I picked up a paralysed pigeon


how paralysed? this itself could be part of the problem


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Thank you very much every body for the quick reply.
I did not have any liquid paraffin (shops closed) and I gave her olive oil - I didn't want to force it down her throat, I offered it to her, she probably mistook it for water and drank. However I think she drank less than 1 ml, probably 0.3 ml. 



Trees Gray said:


> Is she pooping?


On Tuesday morning I found a well formed (quite big!) dropping next to her. However since then she has beem "dribbling" a chalky white liquid which sticks to her underside (which I clean). Maybe this is the Calcium I give her. There is no dark green part, so maybe this liquid does not come from the duct for the faeces.




Symbro said:


> how paralysed? this itself could be part of the problem


Her legs just hang when I lift her, they are tucked behind her when she sits - once I saw her trying to grip with her toes, but very weakly.
Do you mean that the paralysis has probably affected the muscles that help the egg out ? There is no chance of her removing the egg then, I guess.

Do you think I should try to force feed her ? I have put some mashed peas and corn in her water, but it is still too watery to be considered food.
How long do pigeons survive without ( or with minuscule amounts of) food ?

For the UK members- do you think Boots sells liquid paraffin and colloidal silver ?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Yes, please force feed her, without food she will become progressively weaker. If you can start by mixing glucose, or failing that sugar, in warm water with a pinch of salt and getting her to drink that.

The paralysis is usually caused by the egg pressing on the sciatic nerve.

I am not certain whether Boots sell liquid paraffin now, it is not really considered suitable for human use, but try them. I got mine from the vet but have seen it in a corner shop. The good thing about liquid paraffin is that it isn't absorbed during digestion, so it is an excellent lubricant.

I don't think Boots sell colloidal silver, I have not found any yet, but a homeopathic/natural remedies shop might have some.

I think the white chalky liquid is the urates. As far as I understand everything (bowel content, urates, eggs) empty into the cloaca and then go out of the body through the vent. But I am very ignorant about pigoen biology so I could be wrong.

The calcium will strengthen the muscles...I give 2 drops a day for leg weakness.

Cynthia


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Pijifan,

I'm sure other members who have had experience with this problem will be along shortly to advise you, but in the meantime, here is a link to a previous thread which discusses eggbinding and several different methods that various members used to try to relieve the problem....hope it maybe will help give you some ideas...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9262

Good luck and thanks for trying to help this bird.

Linda


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

This happened to my baby reciently before I found this forum. I gave her more calcium and also gave her some Vitamin D oil to help her use the calcium, I find the easiest way to get mine to eat is to get some baby hand feeding formula and put it in a drinker cup and let them sip it. that way theres no added stress from force feeding if its not completely necessasary, the reasons I have found for this to happen is stress and low calcium, (mine was moulting at the time -stress- and my baby is an indoor bird and the weather was bad so lack of vit D to use the calcium) the paralisis can be the nerves being pinched by the egg or because the bird used its calcium for the egg and the bones are now weaker. either way my baby was looking much better after the vit D and calcium, with liquid food. Hope this helps your situation and good luck for your baby.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

pigifan,

It's very possible that this may be a different problem. Given the white discharge, it's likely that your bird has an infection already and you need to get it on a good antibiotic very quickly like Baytril (Enrofloxacin) or Keflex (Cephalexin). 

The shape that feels an egg may not be an egg at all. Please read the following thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Since you found the bird on Monday, it's been quite awhile for it to be the classic "egg-bound" because the egg in that case is usually in the cloaca and isn't passing out the vent. In such a presentation, fecal and urinary outputs are typically blocked. Unresolved, that usually causes death within a couple of days and it's a horrible way to go.

There are several different forms of the buildup of egg material and the caseous cheese-like material from the avian inflammatory process that can occur in the oviduct or abdominal cavity if the oviduct is ruptured. For yours and the bird's sake, I really hope that it's a simple egg-binding that can be resolved by the oil, warmth and dampness but it can certainly be like Winter in the referenced thread.

If you send me your email address, I can send you pages from a veterinary medical book (the real thing) for your avian vet to read about in order to perform the surgery for the removal of the oviduct if necessary. It's actually far easier than you might think and pigeons are far tougher than most birds. In any case, you can give the bird some time if you can get it on Baytril or Keflex immediately.

Pidgey


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Today there was an unexpected improvement 
The bird is very alert and ate 9 peanuts and 4 small seeds (possibly more when I was not observing her). Her crop is soft(ish) now, I could just feel bones yesterday. She moved the upper part of the leg a little for the first time (she had moved the toes before). However the breastbone is sticking out (it wasn't that bad on Monday, I first observed how prominent it was on Wednesday).

As I was watching her yesterday not eating and sleeping (?) (closed eyes, breathing slowly, deeply) for most of the day I thought this was her last day. 
Do you know how many calories pigeons need daily ? 
I read somewhere that 10 peanuts contain about 70 calories - do you think that's right ?
My guess for a daily intake for a pigeon would be ~200 calories (30 peanuts ?). I know peanuts should not be the main component in the diet of a pigeon but anything high calorie, high fat she eats now is a blessing - I don't want to take away the peanuts from her to force her to eat the other seeds.
Yesterday I made a soup of lentils, peas and corn and she drank a little from a container.

The bad news is she hasn't layed an egg yet 

Thank you Pidgey for the suggestion it maybe isn't an egg but some other disharge, growth. I guess in that case the situation is far worse if I can't find an avian vet to treat her. The instructions would be very useful and my email is [email protected]. 
Do you know somewhere (online) I can buy Baytril, Keflex if a vet doesn't give them to me (a UK shop would offer faster postage than a US) ?

From what I've read in the forum there are two types of eggbinding 1)occurring in the cloaca (quite low, near the exit) 2) occurring somewhere higher up the abdomen (oviduct?)

Which is the deadliest ? If the hen has type 1, should it have died now ? - it's been 4 days with me and when I found her she was paralysed so probably more than 4.
If it is type 2 would the swelling be observed in the vent area or higher up the abdomen ? Can the bird poop and pass urates in this case ? 
This bird seems to nearly CONTINUALLY pass very small amounts of this white semi-liquid substance which solidifies on her underside and her feathers. Most of the time when I move her to another position I can observe this substance within 1-2 minutes ! 
Could the vent be damaged and there is a leak ?
This white discharge smells quite strongly (not like other pigeon droppings which are virtually odourless). I would describe the smell as containing an ammonia based substance (similar to human urine yet you wouldn't mistake it for human urine), so I guess it is urate - but why is it so strong ? Maybe there is something else (bacteria) that makes the smell prominent. 


Thank you all for your wishes and the encouragement !


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pigifan,

We can't buy Baytril (or any antibiotics) online without a veterinary prescription. I have a small amount left over that I can send you, but it won't reach you until Monday.

Do you know anyone who has been prescribed antibiotics and has some left over (amoxycillin)...that can be used on pigeons and we can give you the dosage. Or contact any pigeon fanciers in your area, see if they have antibiotics that they can share.

You could also try to track down some colloidal silver by ringing around your area.

If you e-mail me your address I can send a course of Baytril. 

Cynthia


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The smell indicates there is an infection going on, she could have an oviduct infection with or without peritonitis.
Baytril will be helpful, if you can't find any or it takes too long to get Cynthia's Baytril you can try to opbtain some Cipro for humans, it is basically the same.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, small problem. I tried to send you the first set and I got a mail system delivery problem--it says your emailbox is full.

So, I created a Yahoo email account for you and am in the process of sending the pages to that one. You should be able to download them from that account with no problem. Yahoo seems to work very well.

That email account is [email protected] and I'll private message you a password in a minute. You can get to the private message when you log onto Pigeons.com by clicking where it says "Private Messages" in blue in the upper right corner of this webpage.

Pidgey


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

*Update*

Today I bought some colloidal silver and gave her some in her water.
Baytril (Cynthia kindly provided) will reach me on Monday.
I am very worried because she seems to deteriorate physically. Mentally she is very alert and interested in the world around her. 
However, now she is so thin - a bag of bones. I think her breastbone has ruptured her skin and now sticks out . I try to handle her as little as possible not to make the situation worse and therefore I don't clean her thoroughly.
It seems any form of nutrition that I feed her just comes out at the other end. 
I offer her lukewarm water (pinch of sugar,salt) and she drinks ALL THE TIME.
It's so awful to see her in such a state, she is a very sweet bird.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pigifan, 

I'm sorry to hear that your pigeon isn't improving at all All you can really do is your best for now. Keep her very warm, quiet and make sure she's drinking enough.

Is there anyway you can post a picture of her vent, so perhaps one of us can see the affected area?

Have you been able to get the advice of a new vet?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the update, I'm sorry the bird is not any better. 

You can give her a half a dropper of colloidal silver by mouth, that will ensure that she is getting enough for any infection that may be going on inside.

If you haven't already, add some probiotics to the formula (baby bird food) you are feeding her. That will helps slow the digestion and allow for the food to absorb.

Other then that, just keep her as comfy as possible, as Brad mentioned


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Liquid calcium is great for hardening the shell of the egg but offer her pleanty of oyster shell grit as this will help move the egg. Other than that you are doing the right things. I will keep my fingers crossed for you and your little bird. Good luck hope that helps a little anyways


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

naturegirl said:


> offer her pleanty of oyster shell grit as this will help move the egg.


GREAT INFO!


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the urine is probably refluxing into the kidneys? Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the fecal material is not being properly voided and probably refluxing into the colon? Why doesn't anyone realize that the bird is rapidly dying from poisoning of the system from this inability to void properly? What in the world is an antibiotic or silver going to do about this? Absolutely nothing.
When a person posts and titles it as being an emergency, why aren't they told to get to a vet rather than come on and ask for advice while the bird is busy dying and only a vet can do anything to save the bird? What is an emergency situation if the bird is not taken to a vet yesterday? That is the advice that is necessary to give and nothing else. Surgery is needed to remove the egg from either the cloaca or the oviduct or both and now, it's probably too late to deal with it properly. Any advice given in a situation like this other than get to a vet, is the wrong advice to offer. Meanwhile, the bird is suffering terribly.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fred128 said:


> Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the urine is probably refluxing into the kidneys? Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the fecal material is not being properly voided and probably refluxing into the colon? Why doesn't anyone realize that the bird is rapidly dying from poisoning of the system from this inability to void properly? What in the world is an antibiotic or silver going to do about this? Absolutely nothing.
> When a person posts and titles it as being an emergency, why aren't they told to get to a vet rather than come on and ask for advice while the bird is busy dying and only a vet can do anything to save the bird? What is an emergency situation if the bird is not taken to a vet yesterday? That is the advice that is necessary to give and nothing else. Surgery is needed to remove the egg from either the cloaca or the oviduct or both and now, it's probably too late to deal with it properly. Any advice given in a situation like this other than get to a vet, is the wrong advice to offer. Meanwhile, the bird is suffering terribly.


Why don't you read the thread in its entirety?

We did tell her specifically that the bird should go to a vet immediately, especially since she did not know how long the bird was in this condition, the only vet she could locate said the bird would be euthanized. Meanwhile, she is looking for another vet, why not try the remedies that have worked for so many of us?

The reason for the colloidal silver is to ward off infection, as it helps, and YES there isn't any pooping going on then we know EVERYTHING BACKS UP!

BUT, some egg bound birds have soft shell eggs where they still can poop, and exhibit normal behavior. Egg bound birds don't all necesaairly have the same symptoms either.

I have had birds exibit egg bound symptoms, even though it is only infection or both, therefore I always add use the colloidal silver, as it does get RID of the infection, and the bird is back to normal, and the eggs are expelled.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

fred128 said:


> Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the urine is probably refluxing into the kidneys? Why doesn't anyone realize that when there is an eggbound situation, the fecal material is not being properly voided and probably refluxing into the colon? Why doesn't anyone realize that the bird is rapidly dying from poisoning of the system from this inability to void properly? What in the world is an antibiotic or silver going to do about this? Absolutely nothing.
> *When a person posts and titles it as being an emergency, why aren't they told to get to a vet rather than come on and ask for advice while the bird is busy dying and only a vet can do anything to save the bird?* What is an emergency situation if the bird is not taken to a vet yesterday? That is the advice that is necessary to give and nothing else. Surgery is needed to remove the egg from either the cloaca or the oviduct or both and now, it's probably too late to deal with it properly. Any advice given in a situation like this other than get to a vet, is the wrong advice to offer. Meanwhile, the bird is suffering terribly.


Fred,
Perhaps it would do you some good to *read* pigifan's complete thread before you go off the deep end with your unnecessary comments.  

Please note this excerpt from pigifan's original post. 
*"I am really desperate for any advice to save her life other than what I've already tried: a)vet* b)warm bath c)lubricant d)calcium" 

Please note this excerpt from Cynthia's first post, which was early on in the thread. 3rd post to be exact.
But I would use liquid parafin rather than oil...*and try to find another vet quickly*

Cindy


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

If I missed some of the posts, I apologize. The point is still that an eggbound situation is a very complex problem. There are times that once there is a binding, it can happen again in time and in the meantime, the pigeon seems to be ok. Only a vet can determine if there has been organic damage to the oviduct and when there has been it is often removed to prevent the situation from happening again. I know you have a lot of faith in silver. People also have a lot of faith in antibioitics but all I'm saying to you is that neither will do any good if toxification is allowed to continue. I don't think you would disagree with that. 
There are a few things that can be tried like putting the bird in a bathroom and turning on the hot water to humidify the air. You can put oil down orally and you can put oil in the vent but how many times is that successful? Even if this time is successful, how can anyone know if there has been permanent damage done to the oviduct? 
There is a vet in Ontario who would have treated this bird. Mary took one of hers to him. Why not contact Mary and ask for the name?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> There is a vet in Ontario who would have treated this bird. Mary took one of hers to him. Why not contact Mary and ask for the name?


Because the bird is in the UK?????


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

fred128 said:


> *If I missed some of the posts*, I apologize.
> *There is a vet in Ontario who would have treated this bird. Mary took one of hers to him. Why not contact Mary and ask for the name?*


Perhaps you aren't reading the posts in their entirety.
Another excerpt from pigifan's originial post.
*Yesterday I called the avian vet in my area -York, UK-*

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

fred128 said:


> There are times that once there is a binding, it can happen again in time and in the meantime, the pigeon seems to be ok.*Exactly, that is why the bird should go to a vet, either be put on medication to keep her from laying or seperate from the mate.*
> 
> I know you have a lot of faith in silver. People also have a lot of faith in antibioitics but all I'm saying to you is that neither will do any good if toxification is allowed to continue. I don't think you would disagree with that. *Nope, I recommend detox therapy for a while.*
> 
> ...


***********************************************************


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The bird passed away yesterday evening. I am heartbroken since I grew attached to her and she was very sweet. I am unhappy I didn't find an understanding vet to treat her. It is such a sad moment that will stay in my memory - she was looking at me in the eyes begging for help.

You 've all been very helpful with the interest you showed and your advice.

Once dead, I made an incision (to see where the egg was) starting from the vent to the breastbone and there was no egg. The area was absolutely full of fecal material, most of it outside the intestines. The only hard bit that could be blocking the vent was a crystallised lump of poop. I realised she died a horrible death from the toxicity. I should have acted a lot quicker to alleviate her suffering, if only I could have found a vet that suggested something like flushing the intestines rather than euthanasia. 
Maybe even euthanasia would have been a kinder option than spending the past week with me. (I've read that euthanasia involves two painful injections and sometimes the bird wakes up from the anaesthetic to witness the second injection).

Anyway, this is a wonderful forum, thank you again for your help..


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigifan said:


> *The bird passed away yesterday evening.*
> 
> I am heartbroken since I grew attached to her and she was very sweet. I am unhappy I didn't find an understanding vet to treat her. It is such a sad moment that will stay in my memory - she was looking at me in the eyes begging for help.
> 
> ...


Hello Pigifan,
I am so sorry the little one didn't make it. 

Don't feel guilty about anything you did or you feel you didn't do. Upon a physical exam you noticed what resembled an egg in the vent area & certainly an 'egg binding' situation comes to mind. 
The bottom line here is you did your best. 

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the little one didn't make it.
You did the best you could and you did great. There is no guaranty the poor bird would have made it even if a vet had seen it.
She died in loving hands and she knew it.

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Pigifan, 

My heart goes out to you and I'm sorry you were unable to save your pigeon You did your best under the circumstances and it's a real shame the vets were of no help to you either.

Take care,


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry.

Thank you for caring for her and also for sharing the outcome with us, painful though it must have been for you we can learn from what you discovered.

There are caring vets around. My own veterinary surgery suddenly refused to treat my pigeons , although I had been a customer for 32 years and had taken pigeons there regularly and had them treated as my pets not as wild birds.

Their refusal led me to find a much more compassionate vet who will treat them at cost only, even though I have never asked for a reduction and was willing to pay the full price . I hope that you will also find someone as compassionate for the next pidgie you find...because there will be more coming your way.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi pigifan

I'm so sorry the bird passed, and what a heartbreak you have endured.

Even though you couldn't find a compassionate vet ("real" ,honest to God, worthy of the title avian vet ) to treat her, please take comfort in the fact that you made her as comfortable as possible in her time of need, and she is now in total peace. I dread to think how bad it would have been if she had been left all alone...

I'm sending special thoughts and prayers your way.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry for the loss of your beloved pigeon. I really admire your courage to determine the cause of her death and am doubly sorry for what you found.

Terry


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## fred128 (May 21, 2001)

Here is a link that describes the seriousness of eggbinding and what is done to save a bird medically. 
http://www.lbah.com/avian/egg_binding.htm#trt


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

It is so sad this bird died after all your efforts. I'm very sorry for your loss. Your heart is in the right place. You followed up to determine what the problem was and this adds to the arsenal you have to help future birds. Be gentle with yourself - you are one of the good ones and the world needs your contributions.


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