# Judging



## Luca (Nov 26, 2006)

New here, and to exhibiting, but not to pigeons.

Can anyone explain to me the concept behind judging pigeons?
I was somewhat shocked at two recent shows to hear them looking around, asking for people to judge. I've never been involved with any type of animal exhibition that did not have a formal judges licensing system. There must be good reasons for why one has not been implimented with pigeons, as it has worked for so long, but I'm at a loss to think what they may be. At first thought, it seems to me to be wrought with problems to just pull someone out of the aisle who has, or thinks he has, some knowledge of a breed and ask him to judge. What advantages are there to the informal system that I am not getting?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I am certainly no expert when it comes to pigeon shows and judging, but I think the casual selection of judges is not the norm. The judges at all the shows I have been to are either "professional" judges or well respected and experienced master breeders. We do have members who show their pigeons, so hopefully they will be along to clue us in.

Welcome to Pigeon-Talk, by the way!

Terry


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Judgeing most often is done by people that have a good rep on pigeons. Some being certion breeds others being a allbreed judge. 100 points are set for the standards on your breeds of birds. Perhaps the show you was at. Asked for help in judgeing to move the show along. And the people that were asked was a knowledgeble person. Some shows do use sanctioned judges that test for there judge certifaction. But most are breeders that have done well not only showing tere birds but have become known as a good judge. The better the judge at some shows the more people come to that show.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI LUCA, First I would like to welcome you to pigeon talk. To answer your question, for some of the rarer breeds of pigeon there not many judges, and therefore there are times that a judge for that breed is not available,thus the looking for a judge of a similar breed who may have some knowedgeof that breed. For the most part they do a fairly good job.  GEOGRE


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## Luca (Nov 26, 2006)

Thanks for the responses guys, and the welcome.
So it seems as that's the way it's been done and most exhibitors are satisfied with that. I don't mean to be overly critical, but looking in from the outside, rather objectively I think, it seems to be a somewhat archaic system. I've been involved with exhibiting dogs, poultry and rabbits, and all systyems have their weaknesses, but they all have some stringent training and testing requirements in place which at least give the judges some credentials and give their opinions some sort of meaning. Two examples in the past year will illustrate my point.
At one show, a very well respected breeder and judge, in his breed, was asked to judge Indian Fans. During the judging he made the comment that one bird was very nice, but he excused it because it was too large. After the judging, one exhibitor tactfully explained that the standard for Indians says "When all else is equal, the advantage should go to the larger bird." Indeed, the trend in Indians has been for larger and larger birds. The judge remarked that he'll just have to brush up on that standard.
Another show was looking for a steward. As I was interested in the breed, I offered. There were quite a few varieties, a dozen or more. Two varieties came up, and the judge, supposedly well experienced with this breed, asked me if they were even listed in the standard! One I was sure I had seen listed, the other I could not remember. The bird was passed over, simply because the judge did not know if it was a recognized variety or not. Upon returning home I looked it up, and of course it was there.
On both occasions, I thought how unfair to those exhibitors to have someome so unfamilar with their breed to pass judgement on them. They paid their entry fees and traveled a long distance, just to get an incompetent account of their birds.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Luca,
What shows did you attend? I showed in Sanford, Maine recently, showing Valencian figuritas. The scheduled judges just didn't want to judge this breed mainly because none of them knew the standard or was comfortable in judging this breed . As it was, I got beat in my breed, by one of my own birds  that I had given to a friend last year.
Daryl


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Judgeing all in all is ok on pigeons. Every so often one might have a problem. BUT the dog shows horse shows ect will to. It is hard to find a good all breed judge. Now breed clubs put on meets at many shows and those judges are judgeing 1 breed. Often the show is great. Now Off breed that are small in number You depend on an all breed judge most often The person does try to do as good as they can. Meeting new friends meeting old friends comparing the birds to see if you are going forward with your breeding. Also is a part of shows that make them good. I would recomomend you learn as much as you can try your hand judging the birds. you will find it a challenge and You learn even though you do your best someone will allways think they were cheated. Good sports go home and try harder to breed the better bird for next year. Thats what its about.


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## Geareduplyn (Aug 25, 2006)

*judging*

I've shown everything from Dairy Cattle to Dogs. For the most part handlers who are well known to the judges with decent animals win. Not necessarily the best animals. Poultry and pigeon shows are more fair because the judge is not susposed to know to whom the animals belong? remember the placing of your animals is just one persons opinion at the time.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The idea of showing is to be able to compare your Birds dogs ect to the other birds dogs ect in a given show. This lets you know how you are doing breed preparing and selecting. In showing aginst some of the top breeders you can now judge what level you are at and how to better plan for improved quality. Not a win is great. To loose you should understand the standard of your breed. Look at how you can do better the next year. Breeding and showing anything in a away is a art. You can have the better bird but you may not have prepared it to show how good it was. Some breeds need little work others more. Also Most often the exhibiters in that breed notice what the better birds have that theres lacked. And often know the right bird won. Now as for a judge. The better known the judge is and that that judge has done well not only in breeding top birds but has done well on placing the birds judged at a fare and proper manner. It takes time to truely understand your given breed of pigeons. And rating them in show is the best way to compare how you have bred your birds In the loft your bird may look so good but then at the show you see others that stand out above what you have And then you see some thing that you think you need to help yours and get it home and well you had tht just over looked it or prepared it less. Records setting down proper breeding pairs moving slow and not trying to hurry brings you better luck in the show coop. Judging to takes time to improve your ability.


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## Geareduplyn (Aug 25, 2006)

What is a Moderator?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Geareduplyn said:


> What is a Moderator?


Just a person. But helps make suggestions, Helps the forum in running smooth as to bad threads and posts, Offers support On pigeon needs. And is glad to see new members come on board to post and offer the same.


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## Luca (Nov 26, 2006)

Geareduplyn said:


> I've shown everything from Dairy Cattle to Dogs. For the most part handlers who are well known to the judges with decent animals win. Not necessarily the best animals. Poultry and pigeon shows are more fair because the judge is not susposed to know to whom the animals belong? remember the placing of your animals is just one persons opinion at the time.



I agree in theory, but there are also other things to consider, on both sides of the argument. With dogs, yes, it's extremely political, and I've seen many cases where the best or a better dog did not win over a handler. Livestock, on the other hand, may be just as political, in some cases, but the other thing to consider is that very often the frequent winners are people who are out there, and have been exhibiting for a long time. They do often have good animals to begin with, and those reasons are also why they are known to the judge and do a lot of winning. There is one poultry exhibitor aquaintance of mine who does a lot of exhibiting. He does more than his share of winning, with often top placements including many BIS. Some people love to grumble about how frequently this happens, and he's a judge too, so there's often the claim that his friends are rewarding him. What is rarely said is that he breeds superior birds. Sometimes good birds win because they're good birds. It's also an easy way out for a lazy judge who knows that so and so breeds good birds consistently to go with his over someone else, especially if the judge is not all that familiar with the breed.

It would be nice if poultry and pigeon shows were as anonymous in practice as they are in theory. All it takes is a distinct band, or a well marked carrier placed strategically under the coops in poultry shows to tip off a dishonest judge. In pigeon shows, it's often the owner who brings his birds to the judging table, so anonymity is lost there too. Rabbits the same way. One of the consistently biggest poultry shows in the country, the Ohio National is often criticised because a favorite activity of the show officials and some judges who arrive the night before is to wander the aisles and discuss some of the birds that are already there. This has lead to frequent charges of dishonesty, saying that the winners are usually picked before the show even begins. They could be the most honest guys in the world, but they're so stubborn that they refuse to hear that even the appearance of impropriety is enough to sour their reputations, and they continue to do it time and again. I've seen them do it myself at other shows at which they're judging. When their friends' birds end up winning, it makes it tough to defend their honesty sometimes.

Interesting thread. I wish that there were a grammar moderator, as some of the points which people are trying to make are extremely difficult to understand.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Interesting thread. I wish that there were a grammar moderator, as some of the points which people are trying to make are extremely difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]

 Not everyone is an english major but their viewpoints are priceless nonetheless.


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## Luca (Nov 26, 2006)

Neither was I, but it takes a lot of time and effort sometimes to decipher what they're trying to say.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Luca said:


> Neither was I, but it takes a lot of time and effort sometimes to decipher what they're trying to say.


Probably refureing to me. But thats ok I do not work the computor right to type so well . AND hit the wrong buttons at times. Do you show at any meets with your birds Or mostly open shows. Meets by breed clubs sure bring in some good birds and good judges. We can find fault with anything, but as long as we learn and improve, thats the best we can do. And yes judging is never perfect but its better then nothing at all. Good birds wins shows. Good sports wins friends ,poor sports allways go home mad. Rather complain why they lost rather then admit they lost.


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## reduced (Oct 8, 2006)

one of the problems i have with shows is the type of birds i had. i like swing pouters no one else shows them no competition it takes the fun snd excitment out of showing them to a large degree but its still nice to have them there. most of the time they dont have anyone to judge them because they dont fit the standerd that pouters are noted for. armand


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## Norwich-guy (Mar 6, 2005)

I don't think that the judging of pigeons will always make all of the exhibitors happy. Your best bet for real good judging is if you are showing in a specialty meet class, cause they usually bring in their own judge that raises the breed in question, or has in the past. All breeds judges are only human and will make mistakes every once in a while. My experince with all breeds judges is if he or she does not have an npa book of standards with them i lose a little respect for them as a judge. As it is almost impossible to remember all the points assigned to all the breeds at a show,they do well with the breeds they no, but kinda do a shabby job with the others. Judging at the big shows usually have fairly good people doing it. Fair shows or small pigeon clubs that put on shows mostly can't afford to pay for a good judge. "flying them in hotel etc". Don't let it discourage you, just sit back and enjoy the show. Pigeon people are a great bunch to relax with. Well i guess i better say it, unless you run into the breeder that is way to serious at the show they have a tendency of being a bit of a downer.


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