# Pigeon regurgitating feed!!!



## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

So my new loves, well just the cock arched his neck and regurgitated raw pop corn and other grains, it is late and it is dark in here but I can see them, I looks bedded down, laying or resting on his stomach with his head rested in his neck feathers, he has been acting normal, they have fresh water and there is a grit bowl by their feed.

What could this mean! I swear I read everything but can find nothing on pigeons regurgitating their feed, he has a vet appointment tomorrow for some very sore blood feathers on his muffs but now this is concerning me greatly and I need some advice now!!!

Thank you!!


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Maybe this isn't an issue afterall?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It's good he has a vet appointment tomorrow. Be sure and tell the vet what happened.


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Okay went to vet appointment and he pulled 3 blood feathers on his feet that were really very painful, he gave him a shot in the breast of Depo Medrol for pain and inflammation but we were unable to figure put the regurgitation as he us other wise very healthy so I come to you all, I went to bed and my husband stayed up a while last night and said he regurgitated I bit more!!

Is there anything else I can do for him? He seems really sad right now which I think might just be a side effect of the shot he had making him sleepy!

Please someone help!!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Does the vet typically treat birds? You can't tell by looking at a bird if the bird is healthy. Birds mask illness as a natural defense from predators because in the wild, an off looking bird is an easy target.
Did the vet suggest doing a throat culture and a fecal float? Two common causes of vomiting include a yeast infection or worms.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, just out of curiosity is your vet an avian vet, did he do swab or take any samples from from, the crop, did he do a fecal exam, if not did he say why he did not? I would remove any food items from his feed larger than safflower seeds for now, so take out the corn, peas, and so on. A few common causes that can cause regurgitation as you describe in pigeons can be a crop inflammation caused by yeast, bacteria and canker, that's why crop sampling is important to rules these things out, also, a worm infection can cause a bird to regurgitate as well, from impaction of the GI with worms. Another less common problem, is something called "hardware disease", where a bird will inadvertently consume a small piece of metal as grit and it impacts on the functioning of the GI, usually in the ventriculus (gizzard). They can also consume other non metal items than can impact the proper functioning of the digestive tract as well, such as plastic and wood. 

I guess, myself, I would start will a crop/fecal samples, pull the large food, see what the labs results are and base any further diagnostic procedures based on what you bird id displaying. You could also just monitor him and see if the issue resolves, but most times I find it best to be proactive with these guys.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Seems that Dobato is in full agreement with what Charis has already mentioned, in that he should have done a swab or check on the throat and crop, and a fecal exam. If he did not do these things, then he should have. You probably need to find an avian vet if this one is not.


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

He is an avian vet!! I've taken my birds there since I was a little girl! I don't k ow why he didn't do one!! I can't take him back I used up all my money for the vet. What else can I do? Cab I treat him for any of these things without doing a throat and fecal swab??

Now I'm really concerned, I just lost my job so money is tight but I love my pigeon so I need to get him treated!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he can be treated, but you would have to treat for different things, with different meds, and you don't know what you are treating for. Could be treating him for things he doesn't have. I would call the vet and ask him why he didn't do those things. I would ask him to do them without another office visit charge, as they should have been done before. He should have known that. That is why you pay to see a vet.


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Jay, that is exactly what I said when I called, he hasn't called me back yet but then he does I will let you all know what he says, I will pay for the care but not another office visit. I'll let y'all know what he explains!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, if you have been going to this vet for years, and even if you hadn't, you should just be charged for the tests, not a re-visit/exam. The tests should all be able to be preformed right at the vets', through a microscopic exam and gram staining, so you should be able to get a very quick answer if there are any budding yeast, flagellates (canker), worm eggs, or a high gram negative bacteria count and the tests should not be super expensive. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Karyn, thank you. I will ask for a no office fee visit as we have been very loyal customers for 13 years.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good luck ! Let us know how it all goes.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

just in case, I would call the pre-owner to see if he was given any meds before sending them to you..like dewormer or antibiotics.. just to see if he has had meds not long ago. The vet may want to know. you may also want to limit his feed for now.. just give a small amount, see if he keeps it down.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I just wanted to wish you the best of luck Samantha!. I had this happen to one of lovely young hens this week and it was extremely upsetting. I tried to treat her myself but it didn't work out for me unfortunately. 

While I scrambled around looking for a solution on the net, I learned there are a lot of different things that can cause regurgitation , from not so serious problems such as a reaction to medicine or bad feed, to very serious problems. 

I didn't have much time to narrow it down, as after the third regurgitation, she went downhill so fast and died. It would have helped a lot to have a crop swab and fecal done, to figure out if there was yeast, canker, or bacterial infections involved, or even a virus. I really had no clue. I treated for everything I could think of, but I may have just overloaded her little system.

So here's hoping the vet can find something for you in the fecal or crop swab. Please act on this quickly too; they can look fine one day and then stop eating the next, and then the decline is quick.


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Okay took forever but after a fecal exam it was very clear that my bird(s) are completely filled from crop to intestines with worms!! So he gave me ivermectin and panacur and enough to treat them both for five days at .1cc for the iv and .3GS of the pan.

He already acts much happier off his first dose!!  and no more regurgitation!!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

SamanthaBrooke said:


> Okay took forever but after a fecal exam it was very clear that my bird(s) are completely filled from crop to intestines with worms!! So he gave me ivermectin and panacur and enough to treat them both for five days at .1cc for the iv and .3GS of the pan.
> 
> He already acts much happier off his first dose!!  and no more regurgitation!!


Dear Samantha,

Thanks heaps for the update. 

I hope this message gets to you quickly- please don't use the Panacur. Its made of something called Fenbendazole and it can be toxic to pigeons. My own Avian Vet didn't know this and when he wormed a hen of mine last year it started bleeding internally and it died. I then read her on this forum that Panacur has killed a lot of people's pigeons here and studies show it can be toxic to pigeons.

The Ivermectin is safe, you can go ahead use it right away.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, glad you got to the bottom of what at the cause of the regurgitation. Can you provide a little more detail on the dosing for the Ivermectin, is the 0.10cc a one time dose with 5 days of Panacur? How much does your bird weight and did the vet identify the exact type of worm infection being treated? The information Bella has provided on Fenbendazole is correct, that we try and not use this anthelmintic in Pigeons, as studies show it, and other members of it's drug family, have toxic effects on Pigeons. If you have dosed you little guy with it don't panic, as many people have used this medicine with no observable effects on their birds. If it is just a round worm infection then you should be fine with just the Ivermectin. Please also let us know if you bird(s) have passed any worms in their droppings.

I would keep you bird on small food items for 7-10 days and also keep an eye out for any decline in general demeanor, as there are times worms can open the way for a secondary bacterial infection to set in in the GI.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Karyn, Isn't it terrible to think after everything I put my hen through, it could have been worms after all that? I really need to save up for a microscope.


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Hi it is .1 cc of ivermectrin and .3 cc of panacur, I cannot remember the name of the worms other then he said when dogs get them they are in the lungs but when pigeons get
Them it's in the crop, I haven't seen any worms passed thus far and the dosing is 1x a day of each for 5 days.

Panacur is toxic to birds? I gave them both a dose, will they be okay?? Should I change the dosage of ivermectin now that I won't be giving the panacur?? Glad I posted on here before I gave them anymore!! 

So continue the .1cc of ivermectin for the 5 days??


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Oh I forgot to add one bird is 10 oz and the other is 8 oz


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Samantha,
Is there any way you can get the specific name(or names) of the worms that were detected from the vet office over the phone? That will help Karyn give you better advice for worming your birds.

Like Karyn said, panacur is known as an effective wormer and some people have no problems with it. It was probably prescribed to you because of the type of worms in your pigeon, but there are safer alternatives.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, I am in a bit of a quandary as to what to suggest for you to do, as the Internet has its limits and you have an avian vet directly involved. I can make some comments as I see things. You have two birds, one weighing 284g and the other weighing 227g and the dosing for the Ivermectin seems super aggressive, in fact, I can find not one instance of suggested dosing for Ivermectin in giving it 5 days straight. All dosing suggestions I have are for one dose and then repeated, in broad range of times from 7-21 days (but the most common interval, at least for pigeons, is 12-14 days). I can find a suggested dosing of both drugs together for microfilaria in Cockatoos, but again, it's with one dose of Ivermectin and 5 days of Panacur, I can find no suggested dosing for both in pigeons and I have never heard this combination suggested on this forum before now for use in pigeons.

I guess the bottom line for me is this seems like way too much medicine and with medicines that can be harmful to a bird, as de-wormers cause more toxic issues in our birds than any other medicine we use on them. Also, I consider your birds, from their weight, to be "small" birds, and the smaller the bird the more exact we have to be with getting things right.

I understand you are looking for some guidance, so I will do my best. It might be helpful if you could post the strength of both medicines and also find out the type of worm thought to be found. I know you have mentioned that like with a good many of people, things are tight financially, but if you could get a second opinion that may be the very best thing to do. You can also ask your vet what are his literature sources for the treatment protocol he has suggested and ask if he has ever prescribed this for a pigeon before and what were the results.

Since you have already dosed both medicines, especially the Ivermectin, I would hold off a bit on any further dosing until you get clarification on treatment. There may be information I am unaware of, but right now, I am quite uncomfortable with what has been suggested.

You might find this thread interesting: www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/help-our-pidgy-is-sick-54669.html 

Karyn


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

The worms are "Filaroides" should I be giving them anything other then the ivermectin?


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

I couldn't find the dosingof the medication and the office is closed today, he has treated pigeons before but most of his patients are chickens and parekeets, as for his literature he said it is avimed??

I called around for a second opinion but everybody wants $100.00 office fee that I cannot pay so I guess a second oppinion is out of the question ): 

I don't want to doubt my current vet as he has saved many of my animals but I also don't want to hurt any of my animals and I think y'all know more about pigeons then my vet...

These worms need to get gone now!!!

Also forgot to add that I called around for a second opinion but everybody wanted $100 to walk in the door so I couldn't do that and also the crop swab would have been $250 so that was out of the question too, if anyone can offer more help or was just one small dose of ivermectin okay? If you have any other medication suggestions from Foy's, I could place a small order or if my vet may carry it I can get it from them....Please someone let me know soon!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, Filaroides are a genus of nematodes more commonly referred to as lung worms, with 8 species belonging to the group the most common ones being Filaroides hirthi and Filaroides osleri (new name Oslerus osleri ). This is a worm most often found in dogs and cats, and there is little useful information on this infection in avians and its treatment. In the link below if you search "Ivermectin" you will find it listed as a treatment drug for Filaroides osleri, with suggested dosing and for "once" dosing. I have also read a few cases, where serial dosing is done with Ivermectin, once a week for 3-4 treatments.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470344552.app1/pdf

I feel kinda' like I felt with the case I linked before, that this is not a routine case of "worms" and an expert's advice would be very useful. In the other case, I provided some information on an expert who may be of help, Professor Craig, at Texas A&M. He willingly took the other CG's phone call and was very informative in helping with treatment. It can't hurt to also try and reach Professor Craig and let him know you read about his success with another bird on the forum and ask for his opinion and help with your birds.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=595259&postcount=15

Another concern for me is that although the is a difference of 25% in body weight for the birds there does not to be any adjustment for this in dose amount, both are to get the same dose.

I can understand you not wanting to doubt your vet's recommendation, I just wish I could find just one reference for the dosing regimen he has suggested, and myself, I can't find any, even in dogs, for 5 straight days of Ivermectin. So this is what is making me uncomfortable. I think by giving the one dose of Ivermectin, you have time to make sure you are completely comfortable with giving this treatment, as this is what is important.

Sorry for the delay, I have been doing a lot of reading this morning.

Karyn


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Karyn, thank you so much, I will leave a message for Professor Craig as it is worth a try, I don't know the reasoning for the 5 consecutive days of dosing and for the hen the dose was half of the .1cc he recommended for the cock.

To this point still they have not passed any worms, they are both eating and drinking normally but have had a very high volume of droppings since I gave them the medication yesterday, all the dropping have been dark brown and white as usual.

But they still remain puffed up in a sleepy mode half of the time(Maybe this is normal?), I am heartbroken...I feel like I'm fighting for something I have just obtained after waiting so long and worrying while waiting...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I forgot to mention now that you have identified the worm causing the infection as a "lungworm" you will most likely not see worms passed in the droppings, as you typically would with a round worm infection. The worms will be killed and broken down and absorbed by the body.

Since you are not mentioning they are in any respiratory distress, as this will be a common symptom of advanced lungworm infection, then this is good, did this "sleepy mode" start after giving the meds or was it present before? Yes, please do try and reach Professor Craig.

You can also spend sometime doing some research yourself, as I mentioned you need to be comfortable with the suggested treatment, if you were going to proceed with it, and the more information you can go through to help you do this, the better. Good to hear the dose was indeed adjusted for size.

Karyn


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Awesome, I did infect get in contact with Dr,Craig over the phone which was very exciting and he was more then willing to help.

He said not to give the ivermectin, he said with this specific worm and at a low dose over 7 days he wants me to give orally .2cc 2x a day of panacur for 7 days, he said in recent studies have shown that a low dose over a long period of time has sown no side effects that are negative and at such a small dose 2x a day for 7 days will starve the parasite to death and in the end they will be dead, he told me not to pull any foods from their diet as they need this to combat the worm.

I have fully put my trust in his opinion as the research backs him and as you have told me, his knowledge is endless. I will keep post of updates on their condition to see if it improves or deteriorates.

Cross your fingers for my pidgy's!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, you have made my morning, this news is quite relief for me, and I am most certainly sure it must be quite a weight off your mind to not only have an expert opinion, but one of "the" expert's opinions. I must pass blessings and thanks Professor Craig's way, what a generous and thoughtful man he must be.

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anybody know what the concentration is of the Panacur in this case?

Pidgey


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Great work Samantha and Karyn!


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

10 mg panacur suspension, POINT . 2 cc of it 2x a day, he wants 12 hours between doses he said it is very safe a this rate because its a low dose .4 cc broken up into these 2 doses.

They actually look and act really good, they are preening and grooming each other and the cock is quite keen on starting a nest, the Hen is a bit of a nervous nelly and growls if I go in to catch her...She'll be quite used to me by the end of these 5 days of treatment!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Samantha, thanks for the update that they are acting pretty well. I just wanted to mention to you although both Bella and I posted caution on the Panacur, I wanted to give you a bit more information on this medicine. I did have a discussion with same vet who originally referred me to Professor Craig on Fenbendazole (Panacur). He said, he was quite aware of the cautions in the literature, but that he does use and prescribe this de-wormer without hesitation in certain cases, as there are times this will be the drug of choice. He did say it would not be a good choice for a routine de-wormer, he mentioned, Pyrantel Pamoate, Levamisole and Ivermectin as better choices for this, but said Panacur, in his opinion, should be used when needed.

I also agree with Professor Craig on the larger food items being just fine, since what's going on is not a round worm infection of the GI tract.

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## SamanthaBrooke (Jun 24, 2011)

Karyn, I want to thank you for all of your advice and help, I really truly appreciate everything you have dine to help and for referring me to Dr. Craig.

I agree that in this case this wormer is best, Dr. craig did mention that the usual perscription is ivermectin but said this worm is rare in birds so needs to be treated differently.

I think they are doing good and WOW I thought they ate a lot before but now they have an unbelievable appetite!!
They look really good too, not so sleepy anymore, they are having fun trying to escape my catch to treat them!! Lol.

Again, thank you from the bottom of my heart!!

Samantha


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