# Will piebald effect beak?



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Can piebald in the face/head area take the pigments out of the beak making it flesh tone?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, Piebalds can have full flesh coloured beaks, Completely black beak or it can partly flesh with some Black aswell.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Thanks, yeah I've seen the half your talking about. That's what I thought just wanted make sure.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The beak pigment usually matches the pigment on the face leading up to the beak. 

I guess pied takes the pigment out of the beak in the same way it takes it from the feather...?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yeah pied stops pigmentation in certain areas which doesn't have to be feathers just like dirty. Bulleye are from lack of pigments going to the eye seems in many bald heads. I think it's hard to keep colored eyes in those. If I was to ever work with piebald in the head area i would really stay away from bulleyes


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*One can also get white beaks from the gene for SMOKY (sy) thus you can breed blacks and blue bars with white beaks* GEORGE


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah I knew that, I was seeing birds with baldhead over and over with flesh beaks or flesh top, black bottom


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> *One can also get white beaks from the gene for SMOKY (sy) thus you can breed blacks and blue bars with white beaks* GEORGE


out of smoky and dirty which is epistatic? So would a bird with smoky and dirty have a black beak, white beak or half way in between.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Had some birds that were smokey and dirty, one was completely black that other was more hornish but more on the black side


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Usually if they are both smokey and dirty, they have more dark than light from what I've seen.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

NZ Pigeon said:


> out of smoky and dirty which is epistatic? So would a bird with smoky and dirty have a black beak, white beak or half way in between.


*Hi EVAN,Sorry I can't answer your question. When talking about smoky and dirty one must include sooty all three of these genes are very confusing and I am new at this game. This web site may help us to understand these genes. www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ Check it out * GEORGE


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well, from my count there are 3 things he does not address.

smokey - het will express a half length albescent strip see here










Dirty- there are believed to be multiply dirty genes and not just one

Sooty- being het for sooty will express lines in the pattern, atleast on barred birds or sometimes a blur. Shown here

lines going down the bars









Long blurry line









Heres a page of someones birds, almost all of these express sooty, many different expressions 

http://dorelstipplers.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=8982013


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> *Hi EVAN,Sorry I can't answer your question. When talking about smoky and dirty one must include sooty all three of these genes are very confusing and I am new at this game. This web site may help us to understand these genes. www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ Check it out * GEORGE


Thanks Goerge, I have read that entire website probably 3 times over, Its great but does not really answer my question. Maybe not enough proof is out there on how they interact with each other


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

did you know pied birds can have different color feet too? i have one that has dark feet but on one foot he has a pint toe & white toe nail.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

yeah, a lot of my print grizzles are like that.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

horseart4u said:


> did you know pied birds can have different color feet too? i have one that has dark feet but on one foot he has a pint toe & white toe nail.


Yes this is very common.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

george simon said:


> *Hi EVAN,Sorry I can't answer your question. When talking about smoky and dirty one must include sooty all three of these genes are very confusing and I am new at this game. This web site may help us to understand these genes. www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/ Check it out * GEORGE


Just a side note, I did not bring sooty into this conversation as sooty does not have any effect on the beak colour so it is not really relevant here, The only thing the 3 have in common is that they are " darkening factors ".


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

I don't see how sooty is a darkener? Maybe i would need to see a side by side. I love the way my dirty sooty blue bar grizzle is. Like how much he holds a good blue color despite it being grizzle


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> I don't see how sooty is a darkener? Maybe i would need to see a side by side. I love the way my dirty sooty blue bar grizzle is. Like how much he holds a good blue color despite it being grizzle


It darkens the bird from its wild type form by adding false checks


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Well, i wouldnt really call adding false checks to the bird a darkening factor but that just me. It just fasle checks haha.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It is considered a darkening factor by the pro's

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/smokey.html

There are three *separate* genes that will darken a birds base color. They are all fairly common in homing pigeons. These darkening modifier genes are known as Smoky (sy), Sooty (So) and Dirty (Di) or (V) depending on who’s symbols you use.

"Sooty" (So) will show small dark flicking on the wing shields. It's what Racing Pigeon flyers here in the US often call Pencil on a blue bird and Strawberry on an Ash Red Mealy. In the UK this same mutation is often called dapple. Both dapple and pencil are local common names but the use of pencil in this case is being misapplied. Why? Well simply because there is another gene called Penciled (pc) but that gene has no resemblance to this factor correctly known as Sooty. True Pencil is rarely found in racing homers, Sooty; however, is very common within the breed. A single gene for the Sooty factor will usually smudge up the pattern. It causes barred birds to look like poor checkered ones. *Sooty can be used as a darkening factor to improve color.* I find it very attractive on dark check blue and ash red mealy bars 

I put "Seperate" in bold as I wanted to return back to Georges comment that one should include sooty when talking about smoky and dirty, In my eyes they are seperate and therefore do not need to be talked about in a group as a bird can be dirty without soooty or smoky and viceversa. 

I agree they are similar in the way they are darkening factors but do not think we need to make reference to them all if one is irellavant to the conversation at hand


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, well like i said in my experiences smokey + dirty = dark beaks. I actally have some more ive realized because some of my mottles are darked beaks with no albescent strip which i thought before was just because of spread but that is not the case. I can take pictures of beaks and bird if wanted.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Yeah, well like i said in my experiences smokey + dirty = dark beaks. I actally have some more ive realized because some of my mottles are darked beaks with no albescent strip which i thought before was just because of spread but that is not the case. I can take pictures of beaks and bird if wanted.


Its all good, It seems dirty may be epistatic to smoky with regards to the beak colour based on the responses, I am happy with that for now.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Its all good, It seems dirty may be epistatic to smoky with regards to the beak colour based on the responses, I am happy with that for now.


This is not true for all the dirty genes in combination with homozygous smoky.

For instance, archangels homozygous for both smoky and dirty, and they have light beaks with a dark tip. 

I think this depends on which dirty we are working with, since F1's with a smoky dirty blue bar homer so far all show dark beaks. While the F1's with a smoky dirty black barb all show light beaks with a darker tip.


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