# ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) "doses"



## Pigeonpal2002

There seems to be a lot of variations on exactly how much ACV should be added to the water for our pigeons. The amount I hear the most is 1 tbsp to 1 (US) gallon of water. This is outdated, and in many instances, not enough.

I had a discussion with my vet recently about this and she feels that 10 ml to 1 litre of water is the "right" amount and I agree with her. There are 3.78 litres in 1 US gallon. Therefore, this works out to be 37.8 ml to a US gallon of water or just about 2.5 tablespoons of ACV to a US gallon of water.

This is a case of where more is actually better, and as long as the birds can't detect the the acidity/taste in the treated water, this is more beneficial.

Here is one link that suggests the same, there are others but I can't find them now. If one of our "internet" wizards decides to research this, they will find that the ratio that has been suggested, is more in tune with what is correct and appropriate for the uses in our pigeons. This article talks about megabacteria specifically, but the theory is the same nevertheless and I feel this is a better percentage. 

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Megabacteria.html


----------



## Feather

Thank You Brad,

I will try this!

Feather


----------



## Victor

Hi Brad, I use the ACV with "mother" in it. I use a half gallon milk jug, fill 1/2 way up with water, add a teaspoon and 1/2 of ACV, add the rest water to equal 1/2 gal. I give it to my pigeons once a week. I choose Tuesday, as it is my day off, and I can remember. I use it as a preventative measure.

Of course, shake the ACV well, as settleing does occurs, and always shake the ACV~water mixture well before dispensing it .


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Brad,

The dose we have is 1 to 2 tablespoons of ACV to a gallon twice a week, but I can barely get them to drink it. Therefore, if they don't drink of it readily it is not doing them any good either. I'm using less, but I'm going to get them a different waterer also, as the plastic may have something to do with the taste. I think if it is over 2.5 tablespoons of ACV it might pickle them and is too much. EEK!

I also am putting a probiotic in the water now, with various different strains of gut bacteria and they don't mind that. 

Thanks for the link I'm going to read it.


----------



## Victor

Treesa, I am glad that you brought up the container part. I have wondered about the plastic milk container, thinking that glass may be best. Afterall, the ACV, whether regular or the mother stuff, comes in glass. I may just go shopping for a glass 1/2 gal container. Though, all of them don't seem to have an issue with the water. Rosco, Chiwa drink it fine. Barbie just loves it! And Beaksley even tries to bathe in it...Geeze! Paris is on de-wormer right now, so the ACV and probiotics are on hold for her now.


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Treesa, 

I've been offering my pigeons the amounts I mentioned long before my vet recommended these "doses"...they all drink the water fine and dandy Didn't help with the megabacteria, but I do believe it's a better ratio


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Victor,

Well, I will have to do my shopping at the pigeon supply house for my 50 birds  and see if I can get a stainless steel waterer where the ACV won't smell up the container as it may do so in the plastic. 

Wild Oats has the organic "mother load" ACV and it was a bit cheaper then the Braggs. 


Hi Brad,

Yeah, I think the ratio probably is better at 2 tablespoons, but remember the ratio is more for our smaller pigeons then your BIG pigeons.


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Brad,

The one tablespoon per gallon comes from (guru  ) Chalmers, for one, and is more of a maintenance dose rate. The article on Megabacteria I believe to be more of a medicinal dosing w/the intent to specifically keep the AGY in check as well as the usage of citric acid. I know that in regards to topical yeast infections, I've been told by doctors that it's more the acidic content than the amount of vinegar itself added to the water. Essentially, that is the same thing that Chalmers said in his article. Now, I don't know if Chalmers has ever gone back and revued the concentration in light of the emergence of AGY, or if he's even done any articles on the topic itself....might be interesting to check the site he contributes to and do a search.

I too, have a problem getting them to drink when it's a heavier concentration.
I have tried, although not w/a glass container.....just can't help but wonder if the whole issue of fungus/yeast is a continuation of indescriminate antibiotic usage. I've read that some of them are passed out still much in the same state as when they were ingested....into the environment in some cases.

Of course, it is considered a stress related problem, and I still don't see
any real efforts being made to open up memberships for them at the health spas, wine tasting tours and the like around here  --what's up with that??

And as for Beaksley.... , you gotta just love that little guy.

fp


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

feralpigeon said:


> I too, have a problem getting them to drink when it's a heavier concentration.


Hi FP, 

I'm still going with the 2.5 to even 3 tablespoons per gallon Next time you mix up a batch and try the suggested amounts, stir well and taste. I can't taste anything at all in the water...the percentage is still so very low and minimal. If us humans can't taste it with our approx 10,000 taste buds, I can't see how a pigeon would with it's approx. 43 taste buds


----------



## feralpigeon

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> I'm still going with the 2.5 to even 3 tablespoons per gallon Next time you mix up a batch and try the suggested amounts, stir well and taste. I can't taste anything at all in the water...the percentage is still so very low and minimal. If us humans can't taste it with our approx 10,000 taste buds, I can't see how a pigeon would with it's approx. 43 taste buds


Not a problem, Brad....but you're barking up the wrong family gene tree, here.....I can smell it in the water at even less than that concentration  ......and don't ask about my ears, lol. 

fp


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Brad, 



I am glad to hear this...

Good going...good mentions.


I was advocating the "Two Tablespoons to the Gallon" for treatments, and the "One and a Half" for just good measure when no treatment is being intended...

But I arrived at this rather intuitively with some impirical notice when I was treating Candida and the "Two" to the Gallon did the trick every time...

Glad to hear 2-1/2 is allright, and I like knowing there is a margain of safety there then, where, I imagined I might be close to the upper limit at "2"...

I was also concerned or hesitant with respect to the variations of recipe I had encountered, and the lack of applicible details for when to use it and for what, aside from routine regimen at the lower dosage...so, my "Two" was where I ended up, fearing to do more out of concern for making their lttle systems too acidic.


The discussion I did have on this matter with my 'Good-Guy-Vet-No 1', was very posititive. While he had not previously heard of useing the ACV-Water either in general or for treating Candida, he thought about it pensively for a few moments, and came back with a very positive elaboration on why he thought it sounded very very good, and he was also reviewing the various Organisms which he felt it would address...

I never have used the Nystatin he gave me, and I have had no disappointments with the ACV-Water for Candida or for when I do not know what IS 'wrong' and figure, I may as well put them on the ACV-Water just for good measure...!


Rambly, 

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Yahhhhhh...

I myself can taste or smell the difference of one verses two Tablespoons to the Gallon, but I recall no instances where at "2", anyone had objected to it.

I have likely mixed it up where it was more like a little over Two, but I have never intentionally made it to be 2-1/2 or 3...because I did not know it would be allright to do so.

I long since had the habit, if not all the time, but often, of putting a good slug of Raw ACV ina glass of Water for my own drinking anyway, so I always liked it, or I pour a slug onto a sandwhich...or over some meal on a plate for myself...

Yummmmm!


I myself do not understand the special circumstances or aetiologies and details in which a Pigeon's Natural fauna and flora would become vulnerable to excessesive or inimical populations of particular members/colonizations to where an illness is attributed to that exhuberant population expansion and it's mischiefs, whether this is Candida, some Yeats or as may be.

I have drawn some association in having see Candida illness, or Yeast illness, with either chilled seperated-from-parents by accident Babys, injured from falls Babys, Babys fed K-T by practioners who had not much practice and or who did not add other ingredients...or in cases of adult or youngster Pigeons who had injested some foreign object into their Crop which was n ot passing and could not pass and was in there making troubles.


Of course, some Poisons, Toxins, eating spoiled or 'musty' or damp Seeds, Vitamine deficiencies, or the prolongued use of antibiotics, are also understood to throw off their natural flora/fauna balences...leading potentially to yeast or Candida illness, or Aspirgillis illness sometimes, beginning in their Crop and digestive system when musty or sub-standard Peanuts are the culprit, so...

I am just glad the raw ACV is "there" and easy to get, for us to use when we need it for them...as well as that I like it anyway...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## george simon

*My Italian Cocktail:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::*

Years ago an old timer gave me this recipe for the ITALIAN COCKTAIL. 2TBS ACV BRAGGS,1TBS AMINO ACID also BRAGGS, 1 TBS GARLIC JUICE, and 1PEARL ONION squeezed through a garlic press. to 1 gallon of water. 2days a week. When I first started to use the cocktail the birds were reluctant that was 7 or 8 years ago the birds have gotten use to it in time.I do give it to them in a plastic water container,but glass or stainless steel may be much better, but DO NOT USE A ZINC COATED WATER CONTAINER, as the acid in the acv reacts with the zinc coating this could make the birds ill. GEORGE


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Phil,

Megabacteria, was originally termed such because it was thought to be a bacteria. Antibacterial treatments were not particularly successful, while
antifungal ones were. Some contend that is is a fungus. Others say that it lacks the structure that would classify it as one. I haven't actually tracked the different links to see the dates when the individual papers were published, and this could make a difference in weighing the information about the disease. Basically, we're not the only ones on a learning curve w/it, so are the scientists and leading spokespersons. It's something that is still in the works so to speak. Here are some links, the first one has many articles on the left side that are very informative.

http://www.shadypines.com/megabact.htm

http://www.vet.uga.edu/IVCVM/1998/gestier/gestier.htm

http://wbo.bestofbreeds.net/article4.htm

http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/diseases/mega.html


And just a general one on mycosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...k]+AND+149924[uid]&rid=mmed.section.4006#4013


Birds that are critical get meds immediately, but others fall into less critical
categories and there has been success in preventing relapse for treated birds or full blown symptoms in more chronic birds w/acidifiction at certain levels higher than what we might use for maintenance, with I believe more frequency.

I have read here, a thread on ACV that seemed to indicate that there were some considerations regarding too high an acidity level, one of the concerns is probably something that many members might not be bothered by....infertility. Unless someone were concerned w/breeding, this probably won't bother anyone, and some, might think--ah hah! But there was a post in the same thread from a member that got necropsy results stating there was too high an acid level in the gut. Now I'm not saying that the dosing levels being discussed will cause this. Just that even tho we may think of our 
'friend', raw acv, as being on the benign side, it apparently has its' limits.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=2933

But frequently, with health issues, the weighing of issues and choosing between greater and lesser 'evils' is what needs to be considered in the decision making process.

fp


----------



## TerriB

*Duration of Treatment?*

Phil, so when you have a bird experiencing the situations you mention, do you automatically put them on the higher concentration of ACV (2 1/2 Tbsp/gal) to prevent yeast or fungus? How long would you keep them at that level? I'm thinking this might be useful support for Mieke's chronic egg canal infection, since she gets 10 days of Clavamox at egg laying.


----------



## pdpbison

george simon said:


> Years ago an old timer gave me this recipe for the ITALIAN COCKTAIL. 2TBS ACV BRAGGS,1TBS AMINO ACID also BRAGGS, 1 TBS GARLIC JUICE, and 1PEARL ONION squeezed through a garlic press. to 1 gallon of water. 2days a week. When I first started to use the cocktail the birds were reluctant that was 7 or 8 years ago the birds have gotten use to it in time.I do give it to them in a plastic water container,but glass or stainless steel may be much better, but DO NOT USE A ZINC COATED WATER CONTAINER, as the acid in the acv reacts with the zinc coating this could make the birds ill. GEORGE



Hmmmmmm...!

This sounds pretty nice George...

I have often thought about useing the 'Braggs Liquid Aminos' for the Birds, but I never have gotten around to it...

The 'Italian Cocktail' sounds like a good blend...


In fact, it is making ME hungry just thinking about it...!


Another ingredient I have thought of at times, is 'Vegemite'...or 'Marmite'...being the Vegetable Yeast extracts, high in "B" Vitamines...I now-and-then make a little Sandwhich for myself useing Vegemite on Bread merely...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

TerriB said:


> Phil, so when you have a bird experiencing the situations you mention, do you automatically put them on the higher concentration of ACV (2 1/2 Tbsp/gal) to prevent yeast or fungus? How long would you keep them at that level? I'm thinking this might be useful support for Mieke's chronic egg canal infection, since she gets 10 days of Clavamox at egg laying.



Hi TerryB,


My only experience with the ACV-Water at concentrations of "2"ish or a little more Tablespoons to the Gallon of good, purified Water...

Has been to treat definite, conspicuous symptoms of Candida, or of Gassy-Crop, or Sour Crop, or Crop Stasis ( which the previous three tend have to them of course) ...and I have been very happy with the results.

I just let them fast for three or four days, and the ACV-Water is their drinking Water during this time, and is continued with for say seven or eight days anyway. If they are not drinking on their own, I tube it into their Crop.

Then, after three or four days of no food, I introduce either some direct tube feeds into their Croip if thin nutricous 'Soups' kinda like my Baby formula would be, but strained to eliminate the larger solids for the tube to pass it...or, they wish to start pecking and I lat them peck some small Seeds in moderation. No large Seeds should be allowed, as the duct or passage from Crop to Stomach might still be constricted by infection or infestation...

And, in a day or two after that then, they are pecking and eating and pooping and preening and feeling allright again.




The only Bird I have lost ( knock on wood ) who had a Sour Crop, had some Mimosa Seed Pod sections in his Crop, ( and initialy a lot of other gunk and yucky whatever festering in there) which he threw up some of, but the remaining pod sections had been making some nasty problems, and an abcess had formed on the front of his Crop area, likely, the sharp 'veins' along the edge of the angular ended pod sections, likely this vein had pierced his Crop long before I got him, ( he had the Abcess there when I got him, ) and, anyway, I wanted to get an operation done to clean out those remaining pod pieces, but the Good Guy Vet was not in and I ended up loosing him a few days after because it was a weekend, and or because I did not get to the good guy Vet in time anyway. 

I had him on some Baytril also if memory serve, and likely some Metronidazole...but he had a bad Candida according to a test, and an inflated sodden soggy sour Crop full of yuck when I first got him, which, overall cleared up with the ACV-Water...and his system cleared and pooped all tat yucky stuff out...and he was a pecking and preening Bird toward the end...then he had a downturn from the complications of these damned pods in there.


But anyway, I have also used it at that concentration when I have had Pigeons where I did not know what was wrong with them, and I feel it has helped. Sometimes I have used it in conjunction with other medications also of course...as I did with that one.



I expect it will help for about any infection or malady...

But, as for an Egg Duct infection, especially a chronic one, I would have to guess, that overall diet, fresh Greens, direct outdoor Sunshine, good periods of flying excercise would be the way to go, no matter what else, while also weighing more or additional learned opinions on what drugs to use for the infection's particular kind of organism...if a culture might be taken to determine what kind of organism it is.

Metronidazole m-i-g-h-t be something to ask your Vet about in this regard as a complimentary and concurrent regimen for her to have while also treating with an appropriate antibiotic for treating whatever the organism is.

Basic nutrition and direct Sunshine and plenty of good excercise must never be forgotten as the most important primary basis for their health...

All kinds of odd problems and pesky infections can eventuate if these three are not in good shape...

Her own immune system of course is her first, and best, line of defence and regulation...

Getting them back to that, is the challange of course, when something has gone awry...!

Good luck with her...

But far as I know, the ACV-Water should help....but get a definitive test or culture to find out what the infection organism is if you can...

Maybe there are methods for specifically dealing with this kind of infection which are to additionally introduce meds up into the duct itself for all I know...might take some research to find out...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## TerriB

I appreciate all of your suggestions, Phil. Good diet, greens, and flying are available but not forced on her. Since we don't get regular sun outside of summer, I'm belatedly adding additional vitamins to pick up the slack. The vet has done several cultures (which didn't provide much help) and we've tried several antibiotics, with only Clavamox being consistently effective. We discussed introducing meds directly into the egg canal, but he didn't feel this would be effective since it would quickly be pooped out. At this point, I'm just trying to get her immune system into top shape and head off any additional opportunist infection. Sorry Mieke's problem pulled this thread a bit off topic. I was mainly wondering whether the higher concentration was only used if a problem is suspected or also as a preventative. Thank you for all the information!


----------



## Skyeking

george simon said:


> Years ago an old timer gave me this recipe for the ITALIAN COCKTAIL. 2TBS ACV BRAGGS,1TBS AMINO ACID also BRAGGS, 1 TBS GARLIC JUICE, and 1PEARL ONION squeezed through a garlic press. to 1 gallon of water. 2days a week. When I first started to use the cocktail the birds were reluctant that was 7 or 8 years ago the birds have gotten use to it in time.I do give it to them in a plastic water container,but glass or stainless steel may be much better, but DO NOT USE A ZINC COATED WATER CONTAINER, as the acid in the acv reacts with the zinc coating this could make the birds ill. GEORGE



Thanks for that very interesting recipe of an Italian cocktail. Sounds like it would be very beneficial. I have a very good pigeon multi containing the amino acids and it is as beneficial for pigeons as it is for humans.

I think the plastic water containers are fine for water but they absorb the smell of the ACV and also garlic.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi TerriB,

I usually treat my hen with the oviduct issue/infection with Colloidal silver and Reishi and garlic as the antibiotic. The problem will never really resolve itself permanently without isolating her completely from the mate. I'm thinking of isolating her for a while and allowing her a vacation and rest from her mate.

My pigeons thrive in their sunny aviary and I'm also convinced that sunlight is absolutely conducive to healing and health itself.


----------



## TerriB

Trees Gray said:


> ...I'm also convinced that sunlight is absolutely conducive to healing and health itself.


I agree! Pigeons are such avid sun bathers and the free flying ones can camp out on a high perch to catch the best rays.

In your post on Reishi http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12627&highlight=Reishi, you mentioned that it "...is to be used only for rehab, at this time, not for prevention or long term use. It should be used until healing process is completed." Since Mieke's condition is chronic, how long would you suggest using Reishi? I have been giving her Clavamox 3 days before and 7 days afer egg laying.


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Megabacteria, was originally termed such because it was thought to be a bacteria. Antibacterial treatments were not particularly successful, while
> antifungal ones were. Some contend that is is a fungus. Others say that it lacks the structure that would classify it as one. I haven't actually tracked the different links to see the dates when the individual papers were published, and this could make a difference in weighing the information about the disease. Basically, we're not the only ones on a learning curve w/it, so are the scientists and leading spokespersons. It's something that is still in the works so to speak. Here are some links, the first one has many articles on the left side that are very informative.
> 
> http://www.shadypines.com/megabact.htm
> 
> http://www.vet.uga.edu/IVCVM/1998/gestier/gestier.htm
> 
> http://wbo.bestofbreeds.net/article4.htm
> 
> http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/diseases/mega.html
> 
> 
> And just a general one on mycosis:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...k]+AND+149924[uid]&rid=mmed.section.4006#4013
> 
> 
> Birds that are critical get meds immediately, but others fall into less critical
> categories and there has been success in preventing relapse for treated birds or full blown symptoms in more chronic birds w/acidifiction at certain levels higher than what we might use for maintenance, with I believe more frequency.
> 
> I have read here, a thread on ACV that seemed to indicate that there were some considerations regarding too high an acidity level, one of the concerns is probably something that many members might not be bothered by....infertility. Unless someone were concerned w/breeding, this probably won't bother anyone, and some, might think--ah hah! But there was a post in the same thread from a member that got necropsy results stating there was too high an acid level in the gut. Now I'm not saying that the dosing levels being discussed will cause this. Just that even tho we may think of our
> 'friend', raw acv, as being on the benign side, it apparently has its' limits.
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=2933
> 
> But frequently, with health issues, the weighing of issues and choosing between greater and lesser 'evils' is what needs to be considered in the decision making process.
> 
> fp




Like most posts of this type...you guys are so far over my head, that my eyes glaze over.....my current use of 1 ACV tablespoon per gallon....to as much as 2 ACV tablespoons per gallon.....what reproductive side affects have been documentred ?


----------



## feralpigeon

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> .....my current use of 1 ACV tablespoon per gallon....to as much as 2 ACV tablespoons per gallon.....what reproductive side affects have been documentred ?



None that I've read of, Warren. They involved higer concentrations of acv in the water than the usual maintenance dosages we discuss here.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

TerriB said:


> I agree! Pigeons are such avid sun bathers and the free flying ones can camp out on a high perch to catch the best rays.
> 
> In your post on Reishi http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12627&highlight=Reishi, you mentioned that it "...is to be used only for rehab, at this time, not for prevention or long term use. It should be used until healing process is completed." Since Mieke's condition is chronic, how long would you suggest using Reishi? I have been giving her Clavamox 3 days before and 7 days afer egg laying.


 I have been giving doses of Reishi every other day for coccidiosis. Garlic & Colloidal silver and probiotics everyday, and Neem oil every few days. You obviously keep excellent records, so I would add the Reishi 3 days before and after. You can experiment and try using it every day, or every other day. See how she responds. 

It is funny you should mention Mieke, as my Mieke was just rehabbed for a severe case of coccidiosis (or so I think it was). She was throwing up, not eating, sleeping alot and huge watery puddles filled the cage and I was constantly changing papers. I put her on heat also. It took about three weeks getting her over it. I could not give her any garlic until she stopped throwing up, until that time I gave her probiotics and hand fed her seeds. Then I added garlic, probiotics everyday, and Reishi and Neem off and on. Colloidal silver everyday the first week also. Once she stopped throwing up and I was able to feed her she really responded and poops got less wet.

Now she is cooing, doing lot of raisen poops and eating on her own again.


----------



## TerriB

Treesa, I'm so glad your Mieke is doing better! It seems there really is an art to the science of health care. I'll stop at the store tomorrow for the Reishi and Neem oil. Thanks for the information!


----------



## Skyeking

TerriB said:


> Treesa, I'm so glad your Mieke is doing better! It seems there really is an art to the science of health care. I'll stop at the store tomorrow for the Reishi and Neem oil. Thanks for the information!



Hi TerriB,

Make sure to find out the products are "pigeon friendly".


fp,

I am really amazed at the power of garlic as an anti-fungul as well as antibacterial, as well as Reishi & Neem. You can use all these products and not have to worry, as to what will work, or if they will interact, especially when your dealing with a disease like Megabacteria were there are still so many unknowns. I almost wish I had a bird with this (not) so I could treat it with these natural products. I haven't been able to use any of my products except for with cocci, which my Mieke came down with, but have not seen any other kind of disease to try them on. 

Reti has been using the products on her rehabs, but she also has used some medications. She has had tremendous success with Lolita/Louis as well as her other birds!


----------



## TerriB

Trees Gray said:


> ...Make sure to find out the products are "pigeon friendly"...


Treesa, thanks for mentioning that point. Solaray is the brand they carried. Do you know if that is okay to use for pigeons?


----------



## Skyeking

TerriB said:


> Treesa, thanks for mentioning that point. Solaray is the brand they carried. Do you know if that is okay to use for pigeons?



I use the Solaray probiotics with excellent results. Just check the list of ingredients (if they have Reishi) and make sure that nothing is added. If you find any tinctures, (liquid) make sure they are alcohol free. My Neem oil is in a base of olive oil to keep it stable, but some liquids like my DHLA are in a tiny bit of alcohol, which isn't bad if it is completely organic, but I would rather get any without alcohol.


----------



## TerriB

Trees Gray said:


> ...Just check the list of ingredients (if they have Reishi) and make sure that nothing is added...


I just checked - the only thing in there besides the Reishi is the gelatine capsule.  Thanks!


----------

