# Please Help, Wheezing



## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

Hello,

Please, please read and advise, desperate.

In June, my pigeon (english short faced tumbler) was sick with what we thought was Salmonella/Ecoli/Coccidiosis. After 10 days on Sulfa AVS, he improved.

Last weekend (6 days ago), he began showing similar symptoms to what he used to have.
Not as loud, nor energetic, slightly lighter, and making larger wetter green khaki droppings, decreased appetite, breathing a tiny bit faster. We heard 6 wheezes from him then.

---- So, we put him on Sulfa AVS as of this Monday night (4 days ago).
Vet poop analysis showed weak-positive Salmonella, possible ecoli evidence on Wednesday. Vet recommended Sulfa for 7 days.


TUESDAY TO THURSDAY EVENING. Breathing/wheezing stopped, poops got nutty brown and perfect, energy returned etc. He also RESTARTED MOULTING which he's been taking his time to do. First lost 20 or so feathers overnight on Tuesday.

We thought he was on the mend, so we spent yesterday (Thursday) cleaning him and the cage.

First we gave him a spray with Aristocrat's Birds Lice & Mites Spray, because he's been very irritated over the last few days with heaps of feather lice. He didn't like that much.

And then my sister used Jacaranda Disinfectant to wash the cage. We've used this before with no problems. It has the ingredient: 25gms per ltr Quaternary Ammonium Compound (Quat 50) w/v, and a floral scent.

We let the cage air out as much as possible before night, then put him in it with his mate. We put them in around 6:30 in the evening.

---- 5 hours later, 11:30pm Thursday night

We went to check on him and noticed he was wheezing with a tiny rasp-like sound and popping. Slight bob, otherwise rate of breathing fine.

TODAY, Friday morning.
Still wheezy-raspy, and popping. Not when he gurgles or moves, but when he either rests or is calling his mate. Breathing rate 40 perr minute.

He's not as vocal today.
Still itching, moulting, nervous, appetites still only semi-alright.

Now we don't know what is going on.

- Could the fumes from the disinfectant hurt him for those five hours between 6:30 and 11:30????

- Could it be he's irritated by the lice spray on him????

- Could it be Aspergillosis????
I'm petrified of this. I don't understand why his health keeps waning like this.
How is this disease symptomised exactly? And how can it be treated naturally? Garlic?

Please let know your opinions, thankyou so much.












We don't know what's happening, please can somebody advise


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

What does the inside of his mouth look like?
Color,any deposits,slime,growth???


Have you ever get ur bird tested for yeast infection? Long use of antibiotics can get ur bird candida.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Also, a popping or clicking can indicate air sac mite, I believe.


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## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

Hello, thanks for your thoughts!
My pigeon's mood has picked up, his appetite as well, but when he scratches or gets all nervy/excited, he off croak-wheezing liike a rocket...or even occasionally post-excitement. He's moulting his back feathers at the moment, and we've noticed he takes this moulting business really hard. Everytime he is in a moulting frenzy, there is always a breathing issue.

Brocky Bieber, there doesn't appear to be any discharge, slimy stuff, no. His poops did indicate presence of yeast, according to the vet. But in very small proportion. Tomorrow is his last antibiotic day. We will be putting him on Probac Solution probiotics after.

What can yeast do?

John D, yeah air sacs mites has crossed my mind, but isn't this a spreadable mite? His mate appears to breathe great. She gets winded after flapping and grunts, but aside from that all her noises are good.

Could it be possible he just can't handle moulting and goes nuts???? :/


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Alicjanpip said:


> What can yeast do?


Hi Alicjanpip...
Like u said you've already treated for respiratory infections but symptoms are back. U must treat with another drug,I suggest.
I had a friend who had yeast infected pigeons. They were showing symptoms of a respiratory infection. White growths,head scratching,heavy wheezy-raspy sound,open breathing,white slime in throat etc. I smelled the throat and the word that came out of my mouth was yuck. But it was not respiratory problem,it was candidiasis actually. 
This is a yeast which is already there in pigeons. Poor/dirty feed n water,unhygenic conditions,long use of antibiotics can trigger yeast overgrowth. Problems occur when yeast take pathogenic form.
A Candida-infected bird shows cheese-like lesions caused by a greyish-white layer on the inside of the crop. This membrane often becomes inflamed resulting in a puffy-looking crop.
Chicks with a cop infection display swollen or bloated crops, delayed crop emptying (slow crop) and possible crop impaction; they may suffer from anorexia and clear slimy liquid may come out of their mouth. They may regurgitate their foods.
If the mouth and beak are affected, one might note bad breath and raised areas with thick clear or white material inside the mouth; and in the upper and lower beak (most often where they meet).
If the digestive tract is impacted, birds may suffer from loss of appetite, weight loss, vomiting and diarrhea.
If the respiratory tract is infected, nasal discharge, a change in the voice, difficulty breathing and rapid breathing is noted.
That's why I asked for candida. If ur pigeons tested positive for yeast then u should treat it. Cuz it will continue to grow because ur birds have compromised immune systems at the moment.
What I know of my personal experiences is that Diflucan is best choice to treat candida. Candida has many subspecies and Diflucan treat most of them as Diflucan contains Diflucan+Nystatin.Flconazole can be used as its cheapest and easily available. But it should be vet med not meant for human use. VitaminA is most needed and no supplemnet that contain sugar or artificial sweetner in it should be used.


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## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Hi Alicjanpip...
> Like u said you've already treated for respiratory infections but symptoms are back. U must treat with another drug,I suggest.
> I had a friend who had yeast infected pigeons. They were showing symptoms of a respiratory infection. White growths,head scratching,heavy wheezy-raspy sound,open breathing,white slime in throat etc. I smelled the throat and the word that came out of my mouth was yuck. But it was not respiratory problem,it was candidiasis actually.
> This is a yeast which is already there in pigeons. Poor/dirty feed n water,unhygenic conditions,long use of antibiotics can trigger yeast overgrowth. Problems occur when yeast take pathogenic form.
> ...


Hello! Thank you so much for your help here 
Well, my pigeon is off the Sulfa as of today. I want to start him on Probac Solution, this probiotic which Dr Colin Walker recommends...Have you heard of this? We've never used it before, nor any other probiotics, but we've heard it can help yeast trouble. Is this true?

Are there natural ways to treat yeast and salmonella?

I'm hesitant to give him more drugs...Nystatin actually finished our chicken off a couple of years ago. On taking it to treat a fungal problem, she got a stroke and that was the end of her. Our vet warned us this might happen on this medication. 

Also, what do you think of 'wet canker' being a possibility?

My pigeon is currently doing great behaviourly...he's courting his mate and, alas, my hand at every moment. Poops are tight mounds, white capped, khaki green/brown. Appetite is on the mend. However, this funny snorty/wheezy/grunty/rasp can still be heard. Especially when excited, and when he's resting, it seems the faint sound happens on an exhale every so often.
Overnight he lost 3 tail feathers and a handful of little feathers. Hehe, he's too cute.

Thank you again for your thoughts!


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## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

AlicjanPip said:


> Hello! Thank you so much for your help here
> Well, my pigeon is off the Sulfa as of today. I want to start him on Probac Solution, this probiotic which Dr Colin Walker recommends...Have you heard of this? We've never used it before, nor any other probiotics, but we've heard it can help yeast trouble. Is this true?
> 
> Are there natural ways to treat yeast and salmonella?
> ...



P.S. Sorry, I forgot to write that there's no smell from his mouth...he used to have a 'herby' sort of smell in June when he first got majorly sick, but this passed.

Crop seems to empty well, poops regularly.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Natural ways would not be able to completely control a pathogenic bacteria like salmonella. And they have cyst that can help them survive in environment for over an year. So there is a risk of reinfection always.
I don't think correct administration of nystatin can kill a bird. Are u sure ur chicken died because of nystatin. Fluconazole(vet) can also used to cure candida. Dosage is only 5-8mg in morning on empty crop. Overgrowth of candida can kill a young bird in a week.

Many simply call high levels of triches as Wet canker. But its stands for hexamitiasis also. This is also called by a flagellate like triches. It attacks intestinal track. White rice like,mucoid,malodorous,bloody diarrhea are its main symptoms. Both canker and hexamitiasis can be controlled with metronidazole.
About that probiotic,I've nvr used it. But if Dr.C Walker has recommend it then its definitely safe,good n effective. Don't know if it causes yeast but if it causes then don't use it or treat for yeast thereafter


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would look into the air sac mites and canker if he gets symptoms again. also the vet would need to send a culture out to see what strain of salmonella it is so one knows the medicine that is going to be effective.


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## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

brocky bieber said:


> Natural ways would not be able to completely control a pathogenic bacteria like salmonella. And they have cyst that can help them survive in environment for over an year. So there is a risk of reinfection always.
> I don't think correct administration of nystatin can kill a bird. Are u sure ur chicken died because of nystatin. Fluconazole(vet) can also used to cure candida. Dosage is only 5-8mg in morning on empty crop. Overgrowth of candida can kill a young bird in a week.
> 
> Many simply call high levels of triches as Wet canker. But its stands for hexamitiasis also. This is also called by a flagellate like triches. It attacks intestinal track. White rice like,mucoid,malodorous,bloody diarrhea are its main symptoms. Both canker and hexamitiasis can be controlled with metronidazole.
> About that probiotic,I've nvr used it. But if Dr.C Walker has recommend it then its definitely safe,good n effective. Don't know if it causes yeast but if it causes then don't use it or treat for yeast thereafter



Hi Brocky Bieber! Thankyou for replying  Yeah, the vet did say the same thing, that salmonella is hard/impossiible to get rid off particularly through natural means. Regarding the nystatin and our chicken...my sister says that's what the vet warned might happen. :/ I'm not sure if it was directly linked to the nystatin, but things went downhill fast from the moment she was put on it.

Ah, hexamitiasis...that sounds hideous in terms of symptoms.
Pip's dropping results showed a Negative to Hexamitia. Everything (eg fungi, hairworm, roundworm) was a Negative. The only things that were a Low or Weak Positive were Yeast, Salmonella and Bacteria (Ecoli primarily, not sure what other bacteria they meant).

The vet said to put him on probiotics for the yeast and ecoli.He told us to monitor for wet canker/respiratory infection...recommended I get Turbosole for just in case.

So far, things are pretty okay...we have a close eye on the little guy.
We'll see.


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## AlicjanPip (Jun 19, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> I would look into the air sac mites and canker if he gets symptoms again. also the vet would need to send a culture out to see what strain of salmonella it is so one knows the medicine that is going to be effective.


Hello Spirit Wings  Thanks for your advice...yes, I got something for air sac mites the other day...I was pondering the possibility of that myself, although his mate's breathing is fine...air sac mites wouldnt just stick to one host would they? They're such tiny creatures with such complex troubles


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Thnx AlicjanPip for caring for ur birds so much...
Sulfa AVS is actually good choice to fight E.coli and salmonella. But it should be used for enough number of days depending on severity. (Doxycycline is more adavanced drug to treat respiratory problems used together with bayril or cipro or sulfa AVS to treat e.coli and salmonella.) Doxycyline and Sulfa AVS is usually used for long period.
But antiboitics especially baytril not only kill gram negative but also good bacteria which keep in check yeast or fungi. So yeast take over which is important to treat after antibiotics.
To deal with salmonella, I would run bayril course for 7 to 14 days depending on severity. And after that I will try make bird healthy by giving probitics, a little liver tonic and vitamins. And I will *vaccinate* the bird against salmonella which proves to be effective.

Best bet is timely prevention because if one pathogen invades the body,the other like canker,cocci etc multiply as bird's health come down causing immunity insufficient to fight ailments.

Good to know your bird is well now


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