# Getting Worse - Need Advice asap!



## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

My "found" pigeon is getting worse. 

I have him on cipro and metronidazole. Yesterday I noticed his crop was full despite having not fed him (and he is not eating on his own). He had a couple whole seeds (small) in his feces. 

I voided about half the crop contents, and gave him a small dose of acv water directly.

This morning he still has food in the crop, his crop has gas (I'm "burping" him as well, now) and he is holding his head/neck dramatically to one side. 

His balance is "off" (as in, stumbles to walk, and uses his tail as a kickstand.

He is making almost constant swallowing motions. And I can't tell if its his swallowing or breathing, but there is a "clicking" sound coming from him.

Yet his eyes are at times bright.

His poops are not particularly great right now, but yesterday they were looking much better, despite the crop being slow to move (stopped completely?)

Does this sound like PMV? Paratyphoid? Can I continue to give oral medications if the crop isn't moving?

I'm hoping to get him in to the vet today, but could really use some advice while I wait for them to open..... I haven't fed or medicated him yet and am unsure if I should do so at this point, until we see the vet.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

You need to get him to a vet ASAP. The vet or someone experienced in doing so needs to flush out the rotting debris in his crop. Do not feed him anymore if the crop isn't passing, or give too much liquids. It ismuch easier for a bird to aspirate when their crop is blocked up. When the crop blocks up the bird can dehydrate, and rapidly deteriorate. 

Please list the duration, Frequency and dosage of metronidazole and cipro for this bird - how long has he been on both
You said you were able to void some of the crop contents. What does this mean? If you are expereinced at doing so, if you are able to void the rest safely that would be good. 

Trial small amounts of electrolytes post ( pedilyte, not sure of the spelling, available at your pharmacy). Only give a few mls, give it time (an hour or so) to see whether it is absorbed. Do NOT give more if it isn't. If your bird isn't absorbing liquids orally, only sub q fluids from a vet will help (keep going no matter what with the nilstat)

Get this bird ASAP like yesterday onto a medication called nilstat, nystatin, or medistatin. Make this your TOP priority. Give your other normal meds as you normally would. You can get it from a chemist, you need the liquid version for oral thrush, not the cream. Give one ml of nilstat directly into the crop. 

Crop contents that are not moving are likely to develop a yeast infection, or sour crop. The nilstat or meditation will treat the yeast infection. Do not give any pro biotics at the moment . 

Hopefully someone else can give more advice. 

Best of luck, 


Kamz


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Symptoms don't sound like PMV or Paratyphoid.

If the crop is static, we've been prescribed Metroclopramide (sp?) aka Reglan. If it IS canker, then it is likely to have formed a nodule in the crop, preventing emptying.

If there is a yeast infection then I agree, Nystatin is what we'd use, too. But getting the crop moving is the priority.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

John have checked the spelling and it appears to be metronidazole that Dexter. Has been using. Metoclopramide would be great if Dexter had it. 

Either way, crop stasis with gas is suggestive of sour crop and candida. 

I thought I would insert this excellent quote from pdpbison (Phil) who explains it all better than I ever could. 

Hi upcd,


Yes...a trip-to-the-Vet for a Crop Swab and fecal analysis is always a good idea to help us know what we are confronting.

Likely, there are more then one agent or syndrome which can make for a Gassy Crop or Crop stasis either as primary cause of problems, or as consequence of on-going problems.

I myself have never had any Crop problems with any (of the I suppose quite a few hundreds by now, of logistically orphanned, often hurt or contused, ill and so on of ) Babys I have raised.

Those Babys I have had, who had Crop problems when I got them, had been cared for by others who tube fed them K-T, or, who let the Babys get chilled also...or, were Wild/Feral Babys who had fome foreign object ( like a two inch long French-Fry in one example) in their Crop...( he threw it up on his own thank gooness! Then got well fast on the ACV-Water...)

Otherwise, while I have seen many Trichomoniasis Babys who were feral/wild, had a very few with Trichomoniasis and abcesses of the Crop ( no Candida though with them) but I have never seen a feral-wild Baby with Sour Crop or Crop Stasis or Candida.

I have seen some late juveniles, neophyte fliers, or adult Birds with sour Crop or Crop stasis or Candida, who had sustained injuries from collisions to their Crops/fronts of their bodys...

So, all of this led me to suppose that contusion may be implicated in some initial stasis of the Crop's muscles and functions, which can allow the food in it to stay in it too long...where, it can sour or begig to ferment.

Chill for youngsters or Babys, likewise...can slow their general body processes so that the contents of the Crop stay in there too long and sour or begin to ferment. The toxins which accrue from tis then effect the local functions of the Crop and it's passage to the Stomach...so a viscious circle of stasis is begun.

Hence, I let any suspected Crop Stasis Birds 'fast' for several days. Or, allow them some thin nutritious 'Soups' once the raw ACV-Water had had a couple days to be helping matters.

Foreign objects likewise...getting 'plugged' with a Seed or other large food item AFTER initial Candida phases have begun, can make things worse...as, the passage to the Stomach with Candida or Yeast or other fermenting/souring conditions, the mmuscles or delicate functions of the Crop and passage to the Stomach will become inactive and not wish to expand to let a large Seed or peanut or the likes, pass...

Before I found Pigeon Talk, I had no idea what was going on when I did occasionally get in an adult with a low, sodden non-emptying Crop with or without Gas...

But, I merely let them fast for three or four days or more even, and it tended to all pass. Maybe I and them were lucky, too.

The only Candida case I have lost in many years, had some nasty sharp brittle sections of Mimosa pods in his Crop and had also some abcess there ( from them I presumed) and I wanted to get them removed Surgically but could not get the right Vet in time. Otherwise I am sure he would have made it just fine.

I have used only the ACV-Water, once I found out about it's efficacy, and I have had no disappointments with it.

'Nystatin' ( or it's kin) is likely excellent in every way, but if one does not have it, and it is a usual Friday night or whatever, then instead of awiting, the ACV-Water can be easier to get the RAW Vinegar for, or to even make initially with regular Apple Cider Vinegar which any store will have untill one CAN get the "Raw" kind...and to make pronto...

K-T seems to make for a lot of Candida Babys, especially when tube fed, and I have never used it just "as is" even though almost every one is fed up with me saying so and insists it is FINE to use 'as is', or "BETTER"to use 'as-is' with no augmentation, and with feeding them nothing else "period".

I believe K-T's only appearent advantage is psychological for the caregiver, who "believes" that anything from a corporation MUST be good, and must in fact be BETTER than anything one can make themselves...and, that it saves them a little time in preperation, and saves them from having to think or to make a little effort or deference TO the Bird or Baby.

To me, overall, this is really sad.

I had better results, or just as good as the ideal results of K-T, all along, long before I ever heard of K-T, just useing fresh ground Seeds, plain 'Malto Meal', 'Nutrical', Graham Crackers made into powder, and odds and ends of other things I would add...and I never once had a Candida Baby or any Crop problems of any kind. And all the Babys grew splendidly and florished.

Look at it this way, if it was your Baby, would you just use some powder-in-a-can to feed them until they are 18 or something?

Or would you give them something with a little more real "food" in it?



Otherwise, review these several following key points, or at least what I feel are key points - 

- Babys must be kept "warm" untill they make their own heat adequately. Have these Candida Babys in fact been kept warm enough?

- Crop getting to empty before next feed : With tiny whole Seeds or Seed 'meal' or fresh ground Seeds and dried Berries ground with them, this is less of an issue I think, BUT, with "goo" slugs made from powder, with a shelf life of decades or something, it IS probably an important issue - have these Birds been fed again before their Crops have emptied from the last feeding?

- Adequate hydration: The powder foods can tend to make a 'glob' or slippery slug in the crop which gives off it's moisture, then, repells moisture. This can cause it to stay IN their Crop too long. Water must be offered ( tepid Water ideally) between meals, and, if one suspects a 'glob' or 'slug' in there, one massages their little Crop after giving them Water and trys to work the Water into the glob so it can become a little more dissolved, and then begin to pass better.

- Water: Babys should have, if possible, good, clean, "purified" Water, not 'tap' Water, and absolutely NOT "hot" tap water, which generally will be full of bacteria and anaerobes from one's hot water heater and pipes...

Stores which make purified Water on site, are a good recourse. Regular or fancy 'bottled' water is usually also full of bacterias or other organisms which a frail or compromised immune system should not have introduced into it.

Food with texture, natural whole foods...foods or formula made to have some variety of ingredients in it...in my opinion, will be far better for the Bird generally, than paste and mealy globs or slimey water repellent "slugs' laying in their Crops, of the same 'goo' day in day out.

But upcd, that's the deal as I understand it, and as I know of it, and as I deferentially elect for those Birds for whom I will be careing.

I have never once had any problems which others so often do have, from 'K-T' and it's also, usual, practice of being fed via a 'tube'.

( end quote ) - kudos phil


Hope this is of use to you Dexterpidge. Definitely no food for a few days! 

Cheers Susie


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks so much!!! Vet opens in 9 minutes (I'm watching the clock countdown!) and will be calling to get an appointment asap. Will see what he has to say. 

Thanks so much. And yes, no food.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Let us know dexter! I hope your buddy is ok.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Dexter has a 1030 with an avian vet that I adore. He saved my own duck's life once with a very risky surgery after she ate two coins (a penny and a dime) and they couldn't be extracted endoscopically. Thanks to him, she is still with me (attitude and all) today.

Dexter is the result of a humane call I was sent on to a local gas station where the workers found him, and called the HS. I am on the board of directors, and the board bird lady, so naturally he came here. Unfortunately, the Humane Society, upon finding out this wasn't a simple case of a "lost bird" and he needed vet care, has washed his hands of him. So I am paying for this bird out of pocket. Am hoping it is not terribly expensive as I have my own animals to care for, but I won't deny him treatment because he's "just a pigeon" and not a dog or cat.

I will, however, officially be resigning from my position with the HS once I have time to sit and write out my formal resignation letter. Our HS is limited intake, no kill, and claim to not deny medical care to the animals we take in. I guess that only applies to fur and whiskers, and this has been a huge eye opener for me.

But for now, I'm working up all my prayers, good vibes, mojo, thoughts and whatever else I can muster that he can do something for Dex.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

kamz said:


> John have checked the spelling and it appears to be metronidazole that Dexter. Has been using. Metoclopramide would be great if Dexter had it.
> 
> Either way, crop stasis with gas is suggestive of sour crop and candida.
> 
> I thought I would insert this excellent quote from pdpbison (Phil) who explains it all better than I ever could.


Yes, indeed, I was probably unclear. I'm aware that Metronidazole is being used for the (presumed) canker. The Metoclopramide (I did get the sp wrong  ) I mention as it was administered by the avian vet to my house pigeon last year and cleared her stuffed crop.

I think the first sentence of the quoted post is the most relevant. Vet should hopefully be able to confirm canker with analysis from a crop swab or poop sample (if the bird obliges). Don't know how they confirm yeast infections (any idea?), but I'd think that Nystatin would be the thing to use as you suggest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

John_D said:


> Yes, indeed, I was probably unclear. I'm aware that Metronidazole is being used for the (presumed) canker. The Metoclopramide (I did get the sp wrong  ) I mention as it was administered by the avian vet to my house pigeon last year and cleared her stuffed crop.
> 
> I think the first sentence of the quoted post is the most relevant. Vet should hopefully be able to confirm canker with analysis from a crop swab or poop sample (if the bird obliges). *Don't know how they confirm yeast infections (any idea?), *but I'd think that Nystatin would be the thing to use as you suggest.


They can get that from the crop contents as well.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> They can get that from the crop contents as well.


Ah! Excellent.

(Actually, I should've said throat swab, silly me!)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Crop had been passing fine untill this?

This would likely be Candida/Yeast infection.

'Nystatin' or 'Medistatin' would be called for.


Anti-Inflammitories can also help, if given along with Medistatin/Nystatin, but they would do nothing to cure the Candida/Yeast infection itself.

Is he passing Liquids alright?


Imgages of his freshest poops?



Phil
L v


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

he had been pooping (and passing a few solid seeds which prompted me to check his crop). I believe it had been slowing (unnoticed by me, which I feel just awful about) for the duration, but I hadn't noticed until he stopped eating on his own.

He is currently at the vet. They want to stabilize him, and flush his crop. That first, treatment after.

I have no fresh poop pictures....as he had no fresh poop. Last poop, best I can tell, happened sometime between maybe midnight (when I went to bed) and 3 am, as there were no new ones as of 6 am, and none by the time I got him into the vet at 1030.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with Phil. Sounds like it could be yeast.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Dex made it through the crop flushing. They got out a bunch of old seed, and one whole pea (which means he had digested at least *some* of the peas I fed him, but the rest went bad in his crop).

He is given antibiotic and a shot of (sorry, drawing a blank here) to support the digestive tract.

He is home and I have been instructed nothing til tomorrow morning, and at that time, electrolytes, and by tomorrow evening if he is keeping it down and passing it, to introduce liquid diet only.

And, he pooped BIG TIME at the vet. It was all over the towel I took him in, and the lady said there was at least that much again in the hospital cage. So....don't know where he was storing it, but he got it all out at once. 

Vet says next day or two are critical, and it's all about getting that crop moving again. 

Fingers crossed.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Reglan. He got reglan for digestive support.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DexterPidge,



Sounds like you found a Vet who knew what they were doing.


Yes - let him fast for a couple days...no solid foods.


Did the Vet give you Medistatin to give him twice-a-day for the next five or six days?

I hope so, and they should have, and, your Bird should have that.


Images of his freshest poops?


Probably he had/has the affliction not only in the Crop but father down as well...hence the partial digestive stasis which the Reglan helped him to expel.


Really, the Reglan should also be continued for several days...did the Vet provide some for you to do that with?



Phil
L v


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Glad to hear the little one sounds like he is on the mend. You did a brilliant job getting the bird to a vet as soon as you could. 

I have seen a bird die of crop stasis, not really understanding what it was at the time, and early veterinarian intervention (or very prompt identification and gut pro kinetics) are key. 

Phil, hope you dont mind me referencing your post - found it very informative

Kamz


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Reglan IS Metoclopramide. It's a drug that stimulates GI tract motility. It's kinda' like instant diarrhea, shoving stuff through regardless. It can cause convulsions. We've seen mixed results with it here on Pigeon Talk.

Pidgey


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Sounds good so far.

Actually, I'm not sure that the Metoclopramide (i.e., Reglan) does need to be continued if it has done the job. When my Chickpea had an unmoving crop, the avian vet I go to gave her one shot to clear it. After that, I just had to withhold solids for a day, after which she was fine and has been ever since.

If the vet didn't give a view on canker or on yeast infection, I'd think that continuing the course of metronidazole (since canker can cause obstruction) and giving ACV in the water could be the way to go.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

So.... it turns out there was a roundworm in Dex's poop. I don't blame the vet for not noticing, he didn't give a good poop while he was there, only after as I was picking him up, and I didn't notice it til I got home.

I called and he is going to call in to one of my local vets to have some wormer ready for me tomorrow.

Looks like he has more issues than we realize! At least roundworm is a fairly easy "fix"....


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Sorry, I didn't answer any questions....

The reglan was a one time shot, and he sent me home with no other medications.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Interesting to hear about people's experiences with Metoclopramide pidgey. 

Umm, I would still get some nilstat and give it to the bird. It won't do any harm, but may do much good. Did the vet say whether their was yeast in the crop?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Generally, a candida bloom in the crop is secondary, not the original cause of the GI stasis. Of course, you see a lot of people assume that the bird has the fungal overgrowth without actually doing any lab to prove it. The beauty of the Nystatin (with several tradenames) is that it's not a medication that gets absorbed systemically in the bird--it only works on the fungi in the GI, so it's not a problem to give it in any case.

Most of the time in birds with a slow crop or out-and-out stasis, it was a bacterial or protozoal infection that started it. Or... the squeaker didn't know what to eat, ate the wrong stuff and then suffered the inevitable result. I usually swab them and then take a look under the microscope to see what's going on. Very often, it's just a huge bacterial overburden for which I give antibiotics, or trichomonads (canker).

If a bird's REALLY emaciated and just about completely out of energy and resources, metoclopramide can often kill. It can be a real tough call sometimes.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DexterPidge said:


> So.... it turns out there was a roundworm in Dex's poop. I don't blame the vet for not noticing, he didn't give a good poop while he was there, only after as I was picking him up, and I didn't notice it til I got home.
> 
> I called and he is going to call in to one of my local vets to have some wormer ready for me tomorrow.
> 
> Looks like he has more issues than we realize! At least roundworm is a fairly easy "fix"....



Many Vets use Wormers which are very bad for Pigeons.

Do not permit them to use the 'wrong' kind of Wormer.

Moxidectin would be the good choice...Moxidectin Plus, also takes care of any Tape Worms.


This Bird should have Medistatin for a week, and, keep an eye peeled for any signs of Canker/Trichomoniasis in general, also, and be prepared to treat for that.


Liquid Diet ( more info on that if you like ) till things have cleared well...


Phil
L v


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I believe he's already on Metronidazole. 

Wormers are indeed very debatable. I once queried a prescription for a solution of Fenbendazole (Panacur) as we normally used Moxidectin. The vet told me that any of several wormers could be dangerous if the dose and duration was not calculated accurately. Made sense to me - we stopped using the tablet form of Panacur a long time back because it was questionable what the dose should be.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

So...


Good hydration

Appropriate Wormer

Medistatin for a Business Week

Continue with the Metronidazole

Liquid Diet for four or five days as things clear out...then allow pecking of small whole Seeds, such as Finch or Canary Seed for a few days till satisfied his system is managing well with that

Small to medium size Seeds then for a week

Re-Worm in two weeks...


Can you 'Tube Feed'?


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Dexter's neck has contorted to unnatural position. He has a large amount of clear, but thick-like mucus in his beak that is slimy. 

Today he is rigid and unbalanced, and seems to have only limited control.

What is going on with him? Any ideas? I don't know what to do at this point? The vet seems to think our issue is getting his crop moving again, but I'm thinking this goes beyond that. 

He told me to stop the metradonizale (sorry, spelling is probably off on that) but is this advisable?


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

The mucus in the mouth sounds (along with other symptoms) a lot like Infectious Catarrh, upon some googling. 

What do you all think? And is this a med I will need from a vet? Is it survivable/correctable at this point?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Not so sure that stopping the metronidazole at this point would be good. Depends how long he's been having it.

Does the neck problem look as if he is having difficulty in swallowing? I can't quite envisage what kind of un-natural position you mean. Birds who have an obstruction, like canker in the throat, will often be seen in a 'penguin' posture, very upright and kind of leaning back, with the neck extended. If that were the problem, then the metronidazole would be correct. I don't think that canker has actually been confirmed, though correct me if I'm wrong there.

Sliminess at the back of the mouth/throat can certainly be a sign of a bad canker invasion, or yeast infection, but also a respiratory problem (such as, as you suggest, infectious catarrh, or a chlamydia infection and no doubt others). A throat swab may provide an answer if the vet has the facilities to process it. If it is bacterial, then a course of antibiotics would be called for.

Concerned really about the extra things going on - rigidity, lack of balance. If you can describe these further things in detail, it may (possibly) give a clue.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DexterPidge,


What has the Metronidazole dose been? ( and are you positive it is Metronidazole? And not Dimetridazole? )


Slime and mucous in the Mouth is typical of the effectes of the usual Meds as the Pigeon is recovering from Canker.

Weird postures or twisting, it not typical.


Images?

Of the Pigeon? ( Taken from the Bird's Eye level...)

And of the freshest poops?


Phil
L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DexterPidge,


Anyway, your Pigeon needed to be treated for the Candida, continuously since the Vet visit.

Candida can kill them, regardless of whether it is imagined to have been an initial/primary or secondary illness.


The whole Syndrome of Worms/Canker/Candida requires that all three be treated, as well as that the Bird's Crop have deferential attentions as needed, and, that once sure Liquids are able to pass alright, that the Bird be on a Liquid Diet ( to be Tube Fed 'in' ) until one is confident their System is again able to handle Seeds without clogging up anywhere along the line.


What have their been for poops the last couple days?


And, what has the Bird eaten or been fed the last couple days?



Phil
L v


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Ok, I'm not very good at describing what he's doing. So I took a couple videos and photos. These videos were taken about a half hour ago....

This video shows the frequent "swallowing" movement his throat makes.
http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/crazybirdlady7/?action=view&current=100_1739.mp4

This picture shows his neck position.....









Now, right after I took this picture, he had some sort of "fit" that I wish I had caught on camera. Unfortunately I only caught the tail end of it..... here:

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b92/crazybirdlady7/?action=view&current=100_1743.mp4

Now, back in his brooder and resting, he is standing upright (normal?) but his neck is still in the "on the side" position.


Yes, I'm sure it's metro. No, canker was never confirmed. No, a swab was not done. Yes, I'm mildly frustrated with the vet I saw yesterday. Yes, he has an appointment with another vet (different office, good experiences in the past) tomorrow.

Yes, I know he's filthy. He came that way.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

pdpbison....

The poops have literally been once a day, one major huge poop, since yesterday morning. Once at about 1:30 yesterday, and one waiting for me when I got up at 6 am this morning. None since.

Since his crop was flushed, he is on rehydration liquids only (tubed in) and yes, he will then be on liquid diet only after.

His visit tomorrow I am going to request he be treated for Candida, and of course anything else they think he needs (including the roundworm, which I did not do at the suggestion of Panacur by this vet)


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hmm... I'd probably go with an antibiotic like Trimethoprim/Sulfa (names like Cotrim, Bactrim, TMP-SMZ, etc.), or Amoxicillin plus Clavulanic Acid (names like Augmentin, Clavamox, Synulox) or even Baytril. Have to admit, I've never heard or seen that presentation before. It doesn't look like it's encephalitis or meningitis... more like something vestibular (all the equipment from the middle ear to the brain that gives us balance) ...possibly. Or he might just be having some odd muscles spasms due to something else weird, just don't know.

I'd tend to run a wet-mount slide from a crop swab to have a look, but that's not a guarantee that you're going to find anything--but it might signal a bacterial overburden.

Pidgey


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you. I'm going to print this stuff out and take it with me tomorrow. I don't know what else to do. I'm frustrated that he started off in "bad" shape, but instead of getting better in my care, he's gotten progressively worse. I have used vets that I have had good results with in the past, but this time around I guess I'm bothered that there wasn't more done when I was there the first time. When I called them to make a second appointment to have these things done, they turned me away.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear DexterPidge,

I had a really horrible experience with a Vet worming a sick pigeon & killing it, and since then I've wormed the really sick ones with Moxydectin, that John D mentioned above. I dose lower than recommended, for longer, & I haven't lost any more sick ones to worming. By day three the round worms start to come out usually.

PS. I would ask the baby pig to be checked for Clamydia, or just ask for a prescription for Doxycycline as well as the meds for candida.

PPS.
My last rescue was a baby and it had very bad throat canker, and something else that manifested after a few days. In its last day, it stood in exactly the same way as your pig. is standing above, with the neck twisted and balancing like that, and sitting kind of on its tail. There was a lot of mucus in the eyes and throat, and he wasn't pooping often enough.

I'm sorry, I don't know what it means. My bird became progressively weak and died. He was on metronidazole, antibiotics, and I finally got it on treatment for Clamydia, possibly it was too late. I suspect it had Clamydia and possibly a circovirus. You never can tell without a diagnosis though.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DexterPidge,

Candida can be very painful...accompanying Yeats can aldo be of various kinds, which produce toxic byproducts ( Methyl Alcohohol, Acetone, etx ) which poison the Bird's Nervous System and can cause Cramping and co-ordination problems.

This is what I would htink we are seeing there.

Worms can cause pain and discomfort and Tosins also, so between the two, there can be an aweful lot of Toxins and dicomforts and their effects variously.

Print out solme of the previous missives and bring them to the new Vet and make sure they read it.

Or, take notes highlighting the salient most aspects - 


Clavinox or similar as Pidgey recommends...

Personaly I would add Baytril to this also.

Those two are Antibiotics...you need a ( 7 day ) week's worth.

Medistatin or Nystatin to treat the Candida for a ( 7 day ) week.

Ivermectin of Ivermectin 'Plus' for the Worm issue...for an initial treatment, and a treatment again in 12 to 14 days.


Some sort of antiinflammitory would also be nice - an injection at their Office, then Oral adminstration meds for four or five days for you to do at home.


Since you still have not posted any poop images no matter how often I ask, I can not make any guesses as to whether this Bird has signs one would/could associate with Canker, showing IN the Poops/Urates...please post those images?


We can deduce however, that this Pigeon is having Intestinal Inflammation issues, compromising the Bowel toward infrequent eliminations, and this also aloows many Toxins to occur in addition to all the others.


Get some Goji Berry Juice at a Health Food Store, and get a small Bottle of fresh Carrot Juice also ( If you have a Juicer, consider to make fresh Carrot and Celery combo )...and get a tube of 'Nutrical' or it's equivilent at any Petsmart or the likes, and, these you will use ( details later ) in their Liquid Diet.


Best wishes,


Phil
L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DexterPidge said:


> Thank you. I'm going to print this stuff out and take it with me tomorrow. I don't know what else to do. I'm frustrated that he started off in "bad" shape, but instead of getting better in my care, he's gotten progressively worse. I have used vets that I have had good results with in the past, but this time around I guess I'm bothered that there wasn't more done when I was there the first time. When I called them to make a second appointment to have these things done, they turned me away.



Hi DexterPidge,

Most Vets are not up to speed on this sort of stuff, they have no training or exzperience and they operate by bluff and bedside manner jive...even though I was impressed that your Vet at least knew what a Crop was, and, recognised the value in cleaning it out...but yes, it soon became apparent that they flubbed the rest, and, worse yet, as you report, they now turn a cold shoulder, having taken your money and flubbed the thing, they are 'done' now as far as they are concerned...and they are on to the next fourty or fifty poor pilgrims who stumble in with one thing or another to fleese them, in turn.

Horrid...


But, Vets generally have nbo real overview of these or other syndromes, and, are just not experienced in recognising or being oriented to the necessary regimens and continued care issues.

So yes, print out highlights of this Thread to bring with, or someone, me maybe can do some final synopsis for keeps, of the 'Model' of what this presentation means, and, what ought to be done, and you can print THAT out to bring with.


Phil
L v


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm so sorry, I'm not intentionally ignoring your request for poo pics. every time I read here I think I have to try to remember to answer all questions and get a good poop picture. I did so this morning, but I forgot to post it. This is the only poop he's had today, and it was HUGE. Unfortunately it was also somewhat dry when I found it, as he did it during the night sometime.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> 
> If the test comes out Positive, then they have to report this to their State or Federal Government, and, they also have to confiscate the Bird, and, report the name and address and so on of the person bringing it in.
> ...


 Seriously!? So..... Clamydia..... any chance that's whats goin' on with Dexter? Cuz I have a duck and parakeet I'd prefer not be killed by feds in moon suits.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Dexterpidge,

The reason I started to suspect Clamydia in my own Pig. was mostly because of it eyes becoming swollen, jammed shut with mucus, and blind, which are symptoms your pigeon doesn't display.

Mine wasn't responding to good antibiotics and metronidazole at all, just going downhill very fast, and it had tons of sticky mucous in the mouth, cere and eyes, causing the eyelids to become jammed shut. The swollen, sticky eyes and blindness are a notable symptoms of Clamydia, but not of anything else that I know of personally. It makes sense that virus could cause this though.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

Bella.... Oh I see.... I felt a little panicky there for a minute. 

I just gave Dex his fluids, and first, I cleaned the goo out of his beak. This was in it. I smooshed it around to see if it was just a string of slime, or if it was a solid object (worm?) and honestly, I couldn't tell. Seemed to hold together pretty well.....










330 appointment tomorrow. New vet. Over an hour drive away. Can't come fast enough.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

DexterPidge said:


> Bella.... Oh I see.... I felt a little panicky there for a minute.
> 
> I just gave Dex his fluids, and first, I cleaned the goo out of his beak. This was in it. I smooshed it around to see if it was just a string of slime, or if it was a solid object (worm?) and honestly, I couldn't tell. Seemed to hold together pretty well.....
> 
> 330 appointment tomorrow. New vet. Over an hour drive away. Can't come fast enough.


Dear Dexterpidge,

I am sorry for giving you a scare. The only thing our two baby birds have/had in common is that very distinctive posture in your photo. Mine did that exactly, bhut then the posture changed to standing upright, wings and head fully drooped. Also, mine wouldn't respond to antibiotics or canker meds.

When I read about ornithosis (Clamydia) I gave myself a huge scare because people can get it and its not nice.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

DexterPidge said:


> Bella.... Oh I see.... I felt a little panicky there for a minute.
> 
> I just gave Dex his fluids, and first, I cleaned the goo out of his beak. This was in it. I smooshed it around to see if it was just a string of slime, or if it was a solid object (worm?) and honestly, I couldn't tell. Seemed to hold together pretty well .....
> 
> 330 appointment tomorrow. New vet. Over an hour drive away. Can't come fast enough.


If it has any substance to it, it is possibly a part of the yellowish-white 'cheesy' substance which is caused by canker. Can't say definitively, but if there is canker down out of sight, it could certainly cause an obstruction. That is the only time I've seen anything resembling the strange posture (looks kinda like the penguin posture, though). That would seem to me to be a reasonable basis for continuing metronidazole now he's on it, but it does need to be confirmed.

Of course, poor little fella may have a hefty case of canker, and/or a yeast infection and/or anything else that's been mentioned - but nothing has actually been diagnosed. 

If he makes it through, the only thing that makes sense (to me, anyway) is to get poops and swabs analysed. Be aware that a vet may not have the in-house facilities/time for in-depth tests, and may need to send samples out for anything beyond the basic checks (worms, parasites), but a fresh poop (i.e., that morning) ought to show if canker is present.

Apart from this yellow 'gunge', the only fact we have is that he passed a worm, and that calls for treatment, but taking into consideration he must be pretty weakened.

Anything else at this stage is guesswork. 

As far as vets go, if a vet is not experienced with avians, then I would not expect much. Here in the south of England, and in eastern England where I spend half of my time, we have some good vets. A couple of them will deal with birds, but unhesitatingly say if something looks to be outside their experience and suggest an exotics & avian specialist. I can take my pigeons to a couple such specialists and feel comfortable with it, and not get charged the earth for doing so.

I have to say, though, that if I were a vet and somebody came in with a list of meds that somebody decided, over the internet, I should be giving a bird, they would not get an enthusiastic response. Being me, I'd feel like saying "Fine. You obviously don't need a vet then!"


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DexterPidge said:


> I'm so sorry, I'm not intentionally ignoring your request for poo pics. every time I read here I think I have to try to remember to answer all questions and get a good poop picture. I did so this morning, but I forgot to post it. This is the only poop he's had today, and it was HUGE. Unfortunately it was also somewhat dry when I found it, as he did it during the night sometime.


Wel done there DexterPidge!


Thank you...

How long has this Bird been receiving Treatment for Canker?

And, what has the daily dose been of the Metronidazole?

( I think treating for Canker is appropriate for this Pigeon...just want to know more details...)


Phil
L v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Oh Phil, That's really, really awful. I had no idea. And thanks for correcting my terrible advice!
> 
> I still feel a bit gutted that I couldn't save that last one. Seeing them go downhill like that feels like sand slipping through my fingers.




Happens to me too sometimes.

I understand.


They can have things pile up where it is more than we can ammend.

Once their Glandular system is in a cascading failure, additional illness or conditions can set in on top of whatever they already had.

I suspect, that if more Wild Pigeons had access to Natural sources of proper Iodine, we would see less illness all round, and, easier recoveries when we do confront it.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Dexterpidge,
> 
> I am sorry for giving you a scare. The only thing our two baby birds have/had in common is that very distinctive posture in your photo. Mine did that exactly, bhut then the posture changed to standing upright, wings and head fully drooped. Also, mine wouldn't respond to antibiotics or canker meds.
> 
> When I read about ornithosis (Clamydia) I gave myself a huge scare because people can get it and its not nice.




Hi Bella, 


Had you treated for Candida/Yeasts?

( Those alone could do it, leaving aside the Canker and or Worms and or opportuning systemic Bacterial infections, Tosemia, Toxic shock finally...)


I do not remember...



Phil
L v


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Phil,

No I didn't. I don't really know the symptoms for Candida. The only thing I have for it is a human tablet for thrush called fluconazole. Karyn tells me it is safe for birds, so I picked some up. But I don't yet know how to use it. I was thinking of using it on my last rescue, but I didn't feel comfortable throwing too many meds at it in its very weakened state.

From you describe Phil It could easily have been Candida. The canker infection in its mouth was so horrible that what i could have been seeing was thrush and canker together.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS.

Dexterpidge,

BTW, I meant to say, that is one stunning little pigeon!. I know we shouldn't care more for beautiful birds over the plainer ones though.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

I thought people might find this article interesting. If you read the whole article through, I think it is suggestive that circovirus could often be a primary disease which leads to secondary diseases that are refractory to treatment, an is perhaps often underdiagnosed. 

In dexters pigeons case, the yellow scum in his mouth rings alarm bells for me (and the pigeon you had Bella). 

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Young_Bird_Disease.html


It really wouldn't change the treatment though, if it was occuring, as treating secondary diseases would be key.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Bella oral nilstat liquid solution is safer and gives the birds a bit of energy (glucose) you can get it over the counter at your pharmacy for about 10 dollars


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Susie,

Oh thank you so much for that- I've always wondered how to get my hands on nilstat. I can't thank you enough for helping with that. It opens up a lot of new possibilities for helping my rescues!

And thanks also for your mention of circovirus. I am familiar with Colin Walker's article about it, and I re-read it after you helped me with my last rescue & you mentioned the possibility of circo virus. 

If that was what My little fella had, I'm very afraid of it. I felt like there was nothing I could do for it, other than give it meds that did nothing, and then watch it weaken and die so quickly. It was such a helpless feeling, especially since I've had so much good fortune with my rescues this year.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

pdpbison said:


> Wel done there DexterPidge!
> 
> 
> Thank you...
> ...


I'm sorry, I have no idea what the "dosage" is for the metronidazole. I know it's .5 cc, but I don't know what the strength of the actual med is. I do know, though, that I was advised to stop giving it, so he was only actually on it for a day and a half (3 doses) before I stopped per vet advice. 



John_D said:


> If it has any substance to it, it is possibly a part of the yellowish-white 'cheesy' substance which is caused by canker. Can't say definitively, but if there is canker down out of sight, it could certainly cause an obstruction. That is the only time I've seen anything resembling the strange posture (looks kinda like the penguin posture, though). That would seem to me to be a reasonable basis for continuing metronidazole now he's on it, but it does need to be confirmed.
> 
> Of course, poor little fella may have a hefty case of canker, and/or a yeast infection and/or anything else that's been mentioned - but nothing has actually been diagnosed.
> 
> ...


I hear you, and I agree.... I typically avoid walking into a vet's office with my "internet knowledge" and tell them what I think they should do. The vet I took him to yesterday gave me great care in the past, and I am surprised by this last 24 hours.... I had an opportunity to take him to a different vet (the one he's going to tomorrow) and I opted not to, as the other could get me in sooner, and I thought time was of the essence. I wish I'd gone to the other place first, hindsight.

I do, however, at least this time have something to start with, tell them what he's been doing the last few days, what he's been put on/taken off of, and suggest that my "pigeon-savvy friend" suggested a,b,c,d...... and get his take on things.

If he can just hang on til tomorrow afternoon!!!!!!!!!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems strange the Vet told you to stop the metronidazole, since slow crop is often caused by canker, and metronidazole is an especially good antibiotic for other things too.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> ......
> May we please limit this Thread to DexterPigeon's actual BIRD?
> ......


Quite agree. The 'men in moon suits' should never have infiltrated this thread.

Have moved the tangential posts to a new thread, "Chlamydia", in case anybody wishes to further participate.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Dexterpidge .. hope that little fella will hang on to see the vet.


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## DexterPidge (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't mind that there was "side" information on the thread. 

Dex didn't make it long enough to get to the vet. 

I blame myself, as I chose the vet I did, and followed his advice, which caused Dex to fail quickly. 

I only had him 6 days.... But I miss the hell out of him. I hope someday, he will send one of his friends my way, and I can make up for my lack of judgement with him. 

Thanks so much to everyone who was patient with me and so very helpful.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry you lost him. Such a pretty little bird. Sorry.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'm really sorry 

Sometimes, the pigeons other people have kinda get to one - Dex was such a bird.

Don't take it on yourself. We don't know, and never will know, what was going on, and there's no guarantee that any vet could have found out or done enough in the time. We had one like that - did what seemed to be what right things we could, but the poor gal passed on before the results of droppings analysis had come back.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear that Dexterpidge  Its terrible to lose a little one like that, especially when you go to such lengths emotionally, mentally & financially for it. Please take good care of yourself . You did a very good thing for Dexter.

PS. I am really sorry if I derailed your thread in any way- I guess i just saw some similarites between our baby pig's, especially that strange posture they each shared on the day before they passed away. I haven't seen that before . And also, I guess I relate to that feeling of watching a little one slipping away when it shouldn't...its so awful.

I have a feeling that Phil instincts about Candida affecting both of our birds are very well worth exploring, perhaps as a secondary ailment to a virus or not?. I bought some Nilstat yesterday to keep on hand for the future.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Dear Dexterpidge, 

I am sorry to hear of your little ones loss. She/hewas a very beautiful pigeon indeed. It is so hard often to stand by and watch them suffer, hoping something will finally work to help them turn the corner. 

I'm sure your pigeon knew you were trying to help, and hopefully took some comfort in being provided a warm, comforting environment to pass away, rather than huddled outside a gas station. 

You did a great job. And everythin you have learnt with Dexter will carry on to help other pigeons and birds in the future.

Take care buddy, 

Susie


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