# Homing pigeon (Pearl) With white dots in her mouth..?



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Today I was watching Pearl white she was on the nest and I put my 
hand in she started opening her mouth wide trying to feed my finger 
as if it is her baby, Then I took her out and as usual (I'm always 
checking my pigeons' mouths) I decided to check it out so I looked in 
and noticed these TINY white dots on the roof of her mouth (VERY tiny)
They are located right behind the upper beak with the slit.

I checked out the chevita website and posted it below.
Has anyone seen this in their pigeon??


She is perfectly healthy so 
I'm not worrying.. They were not there before but also after reading 
this website I notice alot of saliva in her mouth and also she is 
producing crop milk because of her eggs.

Mary

p.s I checked Dotty and he does not have this, Also I tried to screpe one off but it's so tiny and stuck.

------------------------------


"Salivary stones found in the beaks of pigeons


Occasionally, when examing pigeons small hard white spots are 
discovered in the area of the crevice in the roof of the mouth and 
particularly in the rear part.

By almost 1 % of pigeons these fine millet sized nodules are found 
singly and sometimes 10 or more. It was always assummed that they 
were small areas of trichomoniasis (canker) but by today's 
understanding that is not the case.

Cause:
It is commonly known that there are numerous small salivary glands in 
the mucus membrane of the pigeon's mouth which secrete saliva so that 
the feed is slightly moistened to allow it to be more easily 
swallowed. To date it is not known what causes these little white 
spots which are hard and are known as salivary stones. By examing 
tissues and the chemicals of these spots or stones it has been proven 
in Holland that they consists of a mixture of mucus and fine small 
grains of parts of the cells from the salivary glands. These in turn 
are rolled into small hard balls and block up the openings of the 
ducts of the salivary glands. At first they appear to be grey but 
later they become white in colour.

Treatment:
Experience have shown that no treatment has been successful. Surgical 
removal only leads to bleeding and damage to the mucus membrane. 
However, the health and performance of the pigeon is not affected.

Prevention:
Further research has shown that careful and regular treatment with 
chevi-col+ together with good hygienic conditions helps to prevent 
the re-occurance of these spots.
In addition, at the first appearance of any colds which increase the 
heavy accumulation of mucus and inflammatory changes in the pharynx 
and along the throat, treatment against catarrh should be continuous 
until cleared of all symptoms."

------------------------------------

I'm not sure what they mean by "millet sized" .. Pearl's are so tiny like this (.)


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Mary,
The white dots I have not a clue.
Many fliers have commented on this but opinions are like arm pits, everybody has one. 
One thing they all agree on though, they are harmless. Of coarse if they are the same ones I am thinking of. Watch them closely though. They will usually get about twice that size and then one day disapear. Then as mosterious as they left, they'll be back again. Wierd.
I have found that with my own birds it seem like an over-dose (or to much of)of vitimans is when they start to appear.
Pigeons go through changes when they're on eggs or raising young,you have probably seen this. The loose droppings,sudden craving for different seeds,can't get enough grit at times and so on.The birds go through a certain amount of stress when feeding young and this is due to having to provide milk or extra feed for there young. They can them selves get under nurished because of having to provide for them. They may not look stressed out but they are.
It's always a good idea to give them a break after the second consecutive round so they can get their health back. If their in good condition after the first round do a second that is. Use dummy eggs to fool them with, it's for their own good.
Also watch her throat. I she has bubbles mixed in with the milk and saliva,she could have a respratory problem.
Put her craw up to your ear and listen carefully. I you hear a gergiling sound or what seems to be labored breathing, then that could very well be the problem. If not remember it could be stress related and there is nothing you can do, I don't think,to fix it. It's in the make-up of the bird. Hope this helps.
Good luck.........
Steve


[This message has been edited by pigeonpal (edited February 25, 2003).]


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Steve!

Actually I just gave her 1 spartrix pill for a prevention incase this is a first sign of canker, Fred said he found a pigeon like this and it turned out to be canker later on, after the pill it was gone in 24 hours.
Also I have a baby squeaker in the apt now who seems to have internal canker..

I'm getting abit worried because I did see bubbles when she tried to feed me, I saw bubbly saliva and crop milk comping up from her crop.
She is always ok on the nest and out but when I pick her up she starts breathing abit strange and I can hear it, I'm thinking maybe she is just abit scared? Because otherwise when she is with her husband she is just find.

Also she starts breathing hard when she sees my cat.

I did boil her eggs and let her sit back on them, it's about the 20th day now.


Any other information would be much appreciated!

Mary


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Mary,
I'm glad you responded so quickly.
I'd like to stay with this for a while with you if that's ok with you.
Fred was absolutely wright. Spartrix is very effective against canker when caught in time it knocks it now. Great advise. 
I'm fishing here so bare with me.
First of all about the little guy. I'm wondering how od you know that it has internal canker. And secondly get him away from others if he isn't already. If it has been eating or drinking out of the same containers as others you must disinfect everything at once. I use a strong salution of bleach water or lysol.Lysol can even kill HIV virus, but bleach works just as well. Most vets use bleach where I live, so it must be good. Clean where others come incounter with where he's been ok. Canker is highly contageous.
Please forgive my spelling.
Once you have done that I can let you know of some products that will cure this condition, if it's not to late, and where to get them if you want it.
Steve


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Steve,
Thats's pretty good advice. I'm still glad Mary gave a Spartrix just in case. At least it will eliminate one possibility.


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Fred and Steve,

I'm listening here and Appreciate all the advice









The baby was very skinny when I caught him on wednesday, he was very active though flying around outside, It was pretty hard catching him too.

Anyway, He looks scruffy, didn't want to eat much and had a swelling coming out from one side of his beak, and an injury on the bottom of the other side. 
I handfed him, I gave him 3 spartrix pills and he was just fine.. Today he was doing great, flew around abit, is eating on his own.. very active again.

The lump is not hard anymore but feels soft. The injury has healed on the other side but the thing is that he had never had any canker visible in his mouth at all, The lump was like the beak was pushed out into a bubble on one side of the beak -- The mouth appeared red though from the inside (Also a symptom of canker). 
He didn't want to eat at first so I handfed him and now he is just fine and I'm hoping the lump will shrink, he looked pretty poorly and I was thinking internal canker right away especially because he was young and his face feathers are not developed.
You won't believe how skiny he is, I can feel every single bone in his body.. He made a pretty good change in afew days.

Here are some photos. http://community.webshots.com/album/62780810CuEsts 

The 7th and 8th and 10th are of the baby with canker.

Mary

p.s I have 3 more squeakers in the living room away from the sick one, they were all found cold after it snowed and some had frostbitten feet.

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited February 25, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by maryco (edited February 25, 2003).]


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Hi Fred 
Nice to here from you. It's almost like I know most of you on pigeons.com. As I was telling Cindy a few days ago,I have been looking around your site for about a year and a half now,not participating just observing and there have been some interesting subjects for sure.
I think people,just like Mary, are lucky to have good pigeon people like yourself to help out when they have a problem. A pleasent and useful site indeed.
Spartrix won't hurt the bird at all and your right it is a process of elimination for sure.
I have spent many $ on vets around here and have learned alot. One of the most exspensive lessons I learned was when a vet( in a neighboring town) killed a good bird of mine because of his misdiagnosis. He didn't know much about Pigeons,treated him anyway. He was going light on me and didn't know why. Anyway he charged me $680.00 with blood work and all,then told me that us people that race pigeons probably know more than he does because we are up on all the latest drugs available. He's probably right ,but if you don't know what to treat for how can you cure the problem? Don't use vets anymore at all after that except for one in Chicago, great guy.
Steve


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

You are right on that, Steve.. Alot of avian vets don't know much about pigeons...

Even though I have a very nice avian vet now it still seems like they don't know about the latest things used by pigeon fanciers for pigeons..etc.
The vet told me himself that he is not used to dealing with pigeons, he was surprised to learn that it was so easy to put a pill down a pigeon's throat.. LOL he proabably learned something that day









Mary




[This message has been edited by maryco (edited February 26, 2003).]


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Mary,
Nice clear pictures of the youngster.
I have only experiance, seen and read of the standard cheesy type of canker.
A good friend that I fly with had a bird with internal canker once, the only bird I witnessed with this problem. 
Well, he was worried sick over this 'cause at the time he couldn't figure out what was wrong with this champion pigeon, and he's a very good back yard vet, but it just sat on his perch fluffed up,didn't want to take it to a vet around here because there really isn't one that knows birds. He and I worked on this bird for a week. Not getting any better he made a trip of about 300 miles to a vet he heard about through the grape vine. They opened this bird up and found it was loaded with internal canker, all organs were infected. They packed the bird with emtril and ridzol and stitcht him up. Left a drain tube in the bird. Two days latter he was gone, he pretty much knew this going in that the bird had less than a 30% chance.
But the point is, is that it was not visible to anyone. Even a fecies sample didn't show canker. They did know there was a large amount of infection but from what?
It almost looks like your faral got poked in that area by something, now it's infected. That would create the redness,I don't know , I'm just guessing. You said it was hard then soft. Could it have possibly been draining by itself? And then it got soft because it was emptying?

Do you have any antibiotics such as terramycin or baytril or aureomycin available to you? That may be all the poor bird needs. I noticed there was some watery dropping in his cage. Fairly tight but watery. These durgs can also cure that.
Just guessing here Mary, can't handle the bird from here. HA HA .
You say you caught him and he still was acctive and fling? Your a real pigeon lover Mary, that's great. I would have liked to have seen some pictures of that little rescue myself. Good for you.
Steve


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks Steve,

I'm sorry to hear about your friends bird








Today I've heard news of exactly the same thing from a friend.. They didn't know it was canker until after the poor youngster passed away









I have Baytril. I have also treated another pigeon with mouth canker before, it was a pretty bad case, the canker was filled puffy like pillows all the way to the tip of the bottom beak, in the throat and everywhere, even the tongue was burried in canker.
I treated this pigeon with baytril, spartrix and she did just fine, the bottom beak was so stretched that it ended up larger and wider that the top and could not fit but later after treatment it shrunk and went back to a normal beak size (Thank God)









I'm afraid to give this pigeon Baytril because it can cause growth problems in youngsters, This baby is pretty small.. If I had a milder antibiotic it would have probably been better, Fred also said to watch out since the mucous membrane is open to infection after the canker heals, I'm watching the baby and if I can get my hands on a miler antibiotic I will use it.

The droppings are really good now though.
The other 3 squeakers that I got had very poor dropping when I rescued them because they were mostly starved but in afew days after the system starts working the droppings were much better.

This "canker" baby (His name is Ernst BTW) is VERY active, The first few days he went nuts in the cage trying to get out, Now he trust me more and I allow him to fly around the living room in the day time while the others are out on the balcony in a basket.

The rescues are mostly the hardest with active or alert pigeons.. I have a trap that I use for those "hard to catch" pigeons but for the easier ones I either hang out the window after putting food under and just wait until I can slowly lower myself over the pigeon and catch him with my hands..
This technique worked great and I used it for most of my pigeons.. 
Another way is putting food on the ledge and after taking out the screen waiting for the pigeon to come inside on the window ledge to eat seed while I slide the window shut behind him, I did this and caught a pigeon yesterday with string around his toes.

Not to mention the ones I find downstairs just walking around unable to fly.. those are pretty easy to catch.
My youngest black squeaker was found when I was visiting relatives down in their building.. He joined my little "squeaker club"










Will keep you all posted on Pearl's condition and baby Ernst!

Mary


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Hi Mary,
Looks like you have all the right moves and technics for getting the job done. Catching the the birds that is.
Baytril is a powerful drug, and Fred is wright about the membrane or soar being open after the canker falls off, that's why it's very important to disinfect the drinkers and waterers in this stag. The chance of re-accurance is high.
When a youngster is under 60 days old, we try not to medicate at all as the medication could interfear with the pigeons natural ability to fight off deaseses on its own. But when it comes to either curing or loosing a very ill pigeon, there is no other alternative than to medicate some times. As a last resort that is, just food for thought.
As for a milder antibiotic like terramycin, our local feed stores here almost always carry it for about $7.00 for a 6 oz. bag. It lasts a long time and very good to keep handy.
Here is a web site that is also handy if you need pigeon stuff.www.ganusfamilyloft.com. You probably aready deal with some but here's another one for you. You can even call and talk to Mike or Debbie Ganus if there around and they are very helpful with free advise.
Good luck with Ernst, and Pearl.
Steve


----------



## fred2344 (Jan 9, 2002)

Steve,
That vet bill was very high! Do you know what was done for it or am I behind the times now and that is the current level of fees?


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Pearl's dots seem less today... Dotty her husband also got a pill just in case because they feed each other.

Also I check the 3 black squeakers that I'm caring for and 1 out of 3 had the same white spots, alittle flatter and a tiny bit more yellow that white.. They also were much more stuck to each other.

This is really probably canker, They all must have caught it from the sick baby.. At least I know that he DID have canker. 

I've also noticed some little holes in both Dotty and Pearl's feathers, Could this be mites? On Dotty the holes were in the flight feathers and Pearl they were on the tail mostly, I took a photo and if you check in awhile you might see it as the last photo in this album:
http://community.webshots.com/album/62780810CuEsts 

Could these mite thingys be from the pine needles I collected from my grandma's house? I've noticed some little tiny bugs when I picked a bunch a long time ago, they were in the bag with the needles.

Mary


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Hi Mary and Fred,
Mary, most likely thoughs are what are called feather lice. The birds probably brought them in with them and are very easy to get rid of.
I use paramectrin, in the bath water at the rate of 5cc per 3 gallons of water. If the birds cannot bath on there own or won't, mix up a luhe warm bath and dip them in a couple of times. If they seem to take to it let them have some fun for a while. It won't hurt them, used it for years on my flying team, they even drink it with know ill effects.Try to give them about 3 inches of water if there bathing on there own.
This solution will also keep them off for weeks and kill the eggs of the lice. Also rids of pigeon flys very well.
Paramectrin is used for ridding of misquitos and flys mostly and also kills spiders when used in a more poetant solution.
I spay my lofts with it after disinfectng inside and out with the stronger dose to control spiders. The commercial pest control people have much to potent chemicals to be around the birds.
Misquitos spread disease and can suck the energy out of a racing pigeon.
I don't think you can get lice from pine needles that you collect. They thrive on the pigeons warmth and protein they get out of feathers. Feather lice a longated in shape, rather flat, and are reddish tint in color.
Good news about Pearl's progress.
Fred, no your not behind the times any. It's that when they have to do surgery on a pigeon the go through many tests first. Plus office visit is tacked on, here anyways. And if your an avian specialist, double that, and if your in California, double that again. Sad deal. When you know you have to send a special bird to one of these people, you get this strange cramping aching pain in your back side right where you wallet is kept, wierd.
When I have to post a bird for a nagging problem I can't cure through normal channels; ie, fecies diagnosis, or throat cultures, I send the remains to a real nice vetrinarian in Chicago. For $29.00 plus your cost to ship, he'll autopsy the bird, no labe work and pin point your broblem accuratlly.
Keep them healthy pigeonpals,
Steve


[This message has been edited by pigeonpal (edited February 26, 2003).]


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks, Steve









Both Pearl and Dotty LOVE to bath I fill up a container and they dive right in.. I have a spray and will try that for now since I'm not sure I can get that stuff for the water.


Will keep you posted on Pearl, Kuzoo and Ernsts' canker conditions..

Mary


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Mary,
I went back and edited that last post. 
It should have read feather lice instead of mites.
This peramectrin II is used mostly by horse people for keeping the flies off there horses, in a more concentrated mix than we use with pigeons.
If you need some a feed store should carry it and it'll go long long way.
Steve


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

What you mean by feather lice are those long brown little things that look like splinters? If yes, I've seen those and know how they look, they are visible and I usually am able to get rid of them on the ferals I bring in but these are not what are on Pearl and Dotty. I looked very closely and I don't see anything at all. My pigeon is pure white and those lice would have shown especially under the wing..

What do you think?

Mary


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Mary,
Your right, thoughs long brown things are what I was refering to. All the homer pigeons I have seen, all have a white underside of the wing and make it very easy to spot the parasite once you get snooping around and also on the tail closer to the back is a good location for spoting these pests.
Sorry Mary, never looked at the picture you took of "Pearls", I believe this is, tail feathers. When you said holes this is indicative of lice. Never the less, when the flyer's out here have a feather attacking pest or a perasite problem, doesn't matter what caused it we give them a bath in peramectrinII and it'll eliminate anything smaller than a torantulla. And is bird freindly.
You know that kind of looks like damage done when my pigeons hang on my welded wire door fronts. Although you probably don't have those. Could it be from her sitting on her eggs with her tail feathers bunched up in some way? 
What do you think? Just a guess of coarse.
Steve


----------



## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm not sure about the damage, Ree Lee suggested soft feathering could cause these problems and the feathers can be distroyed easier, Ryan and Fred both said it could be poor health in her previous loft.

Pearl lives in my room with her husband Dotty (Who is a feral) , they can fly freely, they also walk around the hall and into my mom's room. My room has hardwood floor so I don't think that would do anything. 
Today I'm going to spray for mites. Also the next time she molts I will see how the new feathers come out.

Mary


----------



## turkey (May 19, 2002)

Steve,

Could you post the address and information of the veternarian in Chicago that performs autopsies for you? It might come in handy for some.

Julie


----------



## pigeonpal (Jan 30, 2003)

Hi Julie,
Yes I'll be happy to as soon as I locate numbers. 

Great guy and devoted vet. He'll even allow phone consultations once you've done buisiness with him. 

The same time I went through an ordeal with a vet in my home town, he sent some cultures along to UC Davis up north of me.

Charged me $150.00 for this service and I did'nt recieve anything back for 8 weeks. I called many times, as this was most important to me at the time. Right at the begining of our young bird race season. It was over before I heard any word from either the vet or UC Davis. I had the problem solved before I got the results back, but my season was toast.

This vet let me know in 3 days after the bird left my loft, I was impressed. That was just one occation when I used him. There have been others though.

Steve


----------

