# I Let My Birds Eat Off The Ground



## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

I let my birds out to eat off the ground ( grain ) and in the garden ( greens ) . I did this when I flew also. I guess thats why the hawks hang around. A while back I saw a bird along the road ( lost racing pigeon ). Its crop had stones in it ! It felt like hard stones anyway. SO, I figured if I let my birds forage they will be better prepared to fend for themselves if they get off course, lost, injured, etc. I feel birds that do not get that training are in a position to die of starvation. Right or wrong, I don't know but I will keep doing it as long as I have birds. OH, this is not "free loft "", its feeding for survival !


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Do you mean that you throw grain on the ground for them to forage? How does this help them? They aren't going to find grain lying around on the ground if they get lost. Not sure I am understanding what you mean.


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

Yes and no, My wife feeds her horses in pans on the ground and the pigeons pick up the left overs ( oats and sometimes corn ). I also throw any left over grain in the garden. No only do the birds go in there but the crows and some little birds ( sparrows and others ). My birds get lettuce in the pen so they are used to it too and they peck away at the greens in the garden. In late summer and fall they eat the seeds off the plantain stalks. They really like them. Sometimes I see them trying to get sweetcorn off the cob but I don't think they get much unless I throw cobs down that are in the milk stage. I guess they eat some bugs ?? don't know.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Just make sure you worm them regularly. You will have more problem with that when the birds eat of the ground. Bugs are worm carriers!


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

If you race pigeons....This grain on the ground will never get you to the winners circle...If you just have pigeons for fun, I guess it`s ok...But like it was posted above,you have to worm them ,or eventually,the worms will kill them....Alamo


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## Whytpigeon (Sep 14, 2015)

"Feeding for survival " if I was being fed I guess I would survive too...lol. It does not matter on what ground or floor or feeder they eat from, they just eat. 

Foraging is totally different , my birds are fed in the loft from a feeder, but they will naturally forage at certain times of the year, esp grass seeds, it comes naturally. I hope mine do not need to reley on it because that would mean i would not be able to feed my birds.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

My birds are disabled and "in loft and fly pen", not free flying but I tell you --No way would I let them forge around the ground for that is the start of something major like worms and who wants to worm the birds all the time if you don't have to and you can supplement with green things you get from the store like lettuces and chard and lots of other things as well as fruit and treats and more treats and more treats...lol...


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

c.hert said:


> My birds are disabled and "in loft and fly pen", not free flying but I tell you --No way would I let them forge around the ground for that is the start of something major like worms and who wants to worm the birds all the time if you don't have to and you can supplement with green things you get from the store like lettuces and chard and lots of other things as well as fruit and treats and more treats and more treats...lol...


A lot of people on this forum say they love their pigeons, But the actions of some betray them as otherwise. As an advocacy site, there are some members who need be shamed for their treatment of their birds. Advocating "Pigeon pie" should not be the sole reason for sanctions.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I would be worming my birds on regular basis, but I would also be concerned about them foraging on toxic soil or in a garden where there may be chemical fertilizers/pesticides and such, hopefully your land/garden is clean.*


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> Advocating "Pigeon pie" should not be the sole reason for sanctions.


*Not sure what you are trying to say, but please review the forum rules. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f124/forum-rules-of-conduct-67555.html#post44598

If you know of any thread/post of anyone that breaks forum rules, then you need to bring that to the attention of the moderators. *


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## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

When you race. birds on the ground is a No No! too each his own but like many mentioned its a health risk for worms....


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

What do you mean Rpalmer? Why did you bring "my words" on what you wrote?...What is Pigeon Pie and why use that on my words?..Just curious and dumbfounded here..


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

You guys are concerned about worms ? And you feed GMO grains, vegetables from a store that have been sprayed with pesticides and who knows what else. I think the worm thing is overblown ( I worm 2X's a year ) heck, even grain has bugs in it, just let it sit in the sun and watch them come out. Alamo, you know me, I used to fly in the same combine you are in, and I did well ( still a member ).
My garden has pepper spray on the plants to ward off deer, etc so, good to eat. I think there is nothing worse than any bird, animal, human that cannot forage in time of need. I will continue to do it my way and you guys can do it the way you are used to. But I appreciate you trying to help me.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You have a unique way of thinking about getting racing pigeons ready for survival if they need too and everybody has a different way of doing things for their birdies and their trains of thought. I do not say it is wrong but it is something that I would not do but pigeon caring for and racing does not have just one way of thinking---thank you for sharing.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Most ppl say the birds shouldn't go on the ground or they'll get worms or this and that. Up until it's time to train the birds I always let my birds bum around and do what ever they want so be it pecking on the ground or sitting up in the trees and like wildcat I feed them on the ground as well. But to each their own I do things different then most ppl in a lot of things I do with my birds but it works for me since I win more then my share of races.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I do let my old birds do what they want outside...But they get fed in the loft...Feeding outside could be a problem when it rains,and any leftover grains on the ground could be a big problem when eaten after a couple of days in the wet dirt/grass....I do not let the YB`s on the ground for they are still growing,and I don`t want any setbacks health wize,at this early stage of their lives....I have had YB`s return after 10 days missing from a race....They didn`t look like anybody was feeding them...They had to be finding food/water on their own...So this feeding outside to help them learn how to live on their own don`t hold water,in my estimation....Alamo


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## pmasonsmith (May 21, 2015)

I guess worms are a risk but I'm doing an animal behaviour degree and enrichment is very important for animals in allowing them to express their natural behaviour. I have pigeons and they have food in bowls but they always ground forage, picking up dropped seeds which I haven't swept up yet or ones I've put out for the birds. I think pigeons forage on the ground naturally so they should be allowed to if possible, maybe getting a large tray and throwing seeds loose on that of throwing them down on concrete before sweeping the waste up would help train them with a lowered risk of worms.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

Skyeking said:


> *Not sure what you are trying to say, but please review the forum rules. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f124/forum-rules-of-conduct-67555.html#post44598
> 
> If you know of any thread/post of anyone that breaks forum rules, then you need to bring that to the attention of the moderators. *


Re read rules at the link. I don't see or perceive any violations.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

No I do not think any violations but what did you mean by this posting regarding my posting unless of course you were just teasing or having fun but I see no laugh laugh with it so I took it serious..But what did you mean?


c.hert c.hert is invisible
Matriarch/Patriarch
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,534
What do you mean Rpalmer? Why did you bring "my words" on what you wrote?...What is Pigeon Pie and why use that on my words?..Just curious and dumbfounded here..

It is Posting #8 on this thread...


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

c.hert said:


> No I do not think any violations but what did you mean by this posting regarding my posting unless of course you were just teasing or having fun but I see no laugh laugh with it so I took it serious..But what did you mean?
> 
> 
> c.hert c.hert is invisible
> ...


I regret not being able to convey to you that I agreed with your position. I apologize to you for that. 



pmasonsmith said:


> I guess worms are a risk but I'm doing an animal behaviour degree and enrichment is very important for animals in allowing them to express their natural behaviour. I have pigeons and they have food in bowls but they always ground forage, picking up dropped seeds which I haven't swept up yet or ones I've put out for the birds. I think pigeons forage on the ground naturally so they should be allowed to if possible, maybe getting a large tray and throwing seeds loose on that of throwing them down on concrete before sweeping the waste up would help train them with a lowered risk of worms.


You are starting your studies in animal husbandry with a good teacher. Something you are missing is that domesticated animals are kept better with people that when left in the wild. No one would keep a champion race horse as a wild horse lives. No would they keep their grade horse as wild ones live. This list is as long as the animals we keep.

To put clean fresh pigeon feed on the ground where is collects dirt, bacteria, moisture and exposes your pigeons to vermin and additional predators is not in the best interest or best care of your birds. If you want to recreate a natural feeding for your pigeons make sure they have feed all day long. Pigeons are natural pickers and naturally pick at their feed all day. 

There are many systems for raising pigeons and all but the natural way is contrary to their nature. That does not mean it is ok to put their food on the ground. It is not ok to never or very seldom give your pigeons clean fresh water so that they get use to the taste of vinegar and don't balk at a foul tasting medication. This list is also regrettably long.

These birds that have been revered through history DESERVE the best care possible. You are in charge of them it is up to you to do these things. If you don't you hurt our sport. You give others a powerful weapon to use against us. 

Take care. Enjoy your birds. And care for them as if God were watching you.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Beautiful posting and beautiful replies. Thanks..


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## pmasonsmith (May 21, 2015)

[/QUOTE]You are starting your studies in animal husbandry with a good teacher. Something you are missing is that domesticated animals are kept better with people that when left in the wild. No one would keep a champion race horse as a wild horse lives. No would they keep their grade horse as wild ones live. This list is as long as the animals we keep.

To put clean fresh pigeon feed on the ground where is collects dirt, bacteria, moisture and exposes your pigeons to vermin and additional predators is not in the best interest or best care of your birds. If you want to recreate a natural feeding for your pigeons make sure they have feed all day long. Pigeons are natural pickers and naturally pick at their feed all day. 

There are many systems for raising pigeons and all but the natural way is contrary to their nature. That does not mean it is ok to put their food on the ground. It is not ok to never or very seldom give your pigeons clean fresh water so that they get use to the taste of vinegar and don't balk at a foul tasting medication. This list is also regrettably long.

These birds that have been revered through history DESERVE the best care possible. You are in charge of them it is up to you to do these things. If you don't you hurt our sport. You give others a powerful weapon to use against us. 

Take care. Enjoy your birds. And care for them as if God were watching you.[/QUOTE]

I was only worried about effects on the birds, such as stereotypical behaviours like feather plucking, which tbh I haven't seen many examples of in pigeons. And don't even get me started on horse care, and the issues in stabling horses all the time, there are problems with the captivity of many animals and always will be. Seed on the ground is bad for pigeons, but I think they'll still peck about even if their well fed, like when they peck at specks on the wall, its inbuilt. My mum gets mine in by putting seeds loose on the top of their coop, I clean the poop off regularly though their pigeons so... they prefer it loose than in the dish we used to use.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Of course they will still peck around on the ground, as that is natural for them. But to feed them that way is encouraging them to do it more, and yes they do pick up things that way. It isn't going to help them anymore to survive if they should get lost.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's actually water and dampness that are the big problems and, that being said, different locations are different. In the desert Southwest, for example, worms and coccidia just aren't the problem that they would be in, say, Louisiana. And if there is no "reservoir" in the local area that's likely to leave worm eggs or coccidial oocysts to "ripen" on the ground where said pigeons are eating, then it's also not a biggie. Sterility is sterility.

Pidgey


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

what about the worm eggs that people birds have picked up from earthworms, by eating dirt?


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## GrizzleMan (Jan 17, 2013)

I agree when a loft is wet or straw is wet it's not good for the birds. As it goes for eating off the ground I try to avoid it doing that but sometimes the feed does get all over the ground..........


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

gbhman said:


> Worms this worms that... sheesh, it sounds like paid advertisements from the drug companies doesn't it?  My birds will feed and forage on the ground a lot and I have no problems with their health (and I do not use meds or worm them!). My aviary goes right to the ground... the grass and soil is the floor. According to many "experts" my birds should all be deathly sick and have worms crawling out of every orifice in their bodies! But yep, you guessed it they all shine with health...I would put their health up against anybodys birds who advises doing the opposite of what I do. Overuse of all those toxic drugs, and trying to keep such a sterile environment is the cause of so many health problems in birds today. They have no immune system left! Carry on doing what works for you



You are lucky. Not everyone is. There have been members on here who have had problems like that by keeping their birds as you do. Just because you have been, doesn't mean everyone will be.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't know why you seem so defensive about the way you keep your birds. That's fine if it works for you. But many have had problems doing that, so only fair to warn them of those problems. Each to his own. I do think that anyone who does keep them this way, and never worms is making a mistake. If you were to worm your birds you might be surprised.


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

gbhman, I like your reply. I think there are more "worm" problems in a loft that has grain kicked out onto the floor and mixed with the bird poop, etc than they would get outside. My grain ( store bought - I know what you guys are thinking ) has "bug eggs" in it - one time I left it set in the sun and bugs were crawling out of the bags weave ( weavels I think ). Grit, water, etc if not changed every day can carry parasites. Why give our birds something thats not natural for their systems, a chemical that was invented by a company to make money for them. I stopped vaccinating my birds 10 years ago, sorry to say the ones that had weak immune systems had to be put down. I'm not saying my birds will never get sick, they might, but I think a healthy bird will heal faster on their own. Same with parasites, give probiotics and let the good gut bacteria do its intended job. Birds, I feel have an ability that helps them pick from the earth the minerals, etc they need.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I never worm my loft, but it's VERY dry.

BUT...

...as I'm a rehabber and have rescued and treated hundreds who were either sick & dying, or injured to the point of not being able to "make it", I've had an interesting bit of experience with worms here and there. I have my own lab and can do my own fecal floats, have done countless times, in fact. Have even had a few that when given wormers have passed into the dozens of worms. I remember one in particular (Debbie) that was losing weight and could NOT keep ANY food down, but would regurgitate EVERYthing (she ate ravenously at the time)...

I did the test. Worms. Massive infestation. Wormer saved her.

I usually do test for worms when I've got a new bird to go into the loft, but I'm not generally worried about the loft itself as it's so dry it doesn't matter--worm eggs will tend to dry out and never mature such that they could infest another bird. I only test the bird for the bird's sake and I don't treat unless I find actual worm eggs in the fecal float. Many wormers will actually stay in the lumen and not be absorbed systemically, by the way, if the pigeon in question isn't allowed to eat anything for a day beforehand, so no real poisoning done--just to the worms in the lumen.

Pidgey


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

What I want to know is,the folks who let their birds do what they want on the ground,and feed them outside the loft on the ground,ARE THEY racing pigeon flyers,or just folks that have birds for fun ??? If it was so good to feed outside on the ground,Mike Ganus and ALL the other great RACING pigeon guys would be doing it...BUT THEY DON`T !!!...Alamo


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

gbhman said:


> This is not about me, as I was trying to convey to wildcat hunter that I see no problem with his method. My first post was directed at wildcat hunter (as can clearly be seen by my quote), but for some reason you felt compelled to respond to my post, and rolling your eyes at me no less. I guess it must have struck a nerve when I bad mouthed the drugs?


All well and good if you just have homers. If you are a racer and plan to win races you do not let them forage on the ground. They call those flyers "someone who also flew".

I have told this story on here before and to make my point I'll tell it again. In the FM club the meetings were held at the Presidents house. On the way there for a meeting before the young bird season I saw a big flock of pigeons in a cut corn field a mile or more from there. A little while after arriving I heard Tony (the president) say " Look, there come my birds. They have been routing for two hours every day." I never told him where they were spending that time every day. He also didn't have a good young bird race season that year.

I want to know when my birds are routing out of sight that they are still in the air!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

gbhman said:


> This is not about me, as I was trying to convey to wildcat hunter that I see no problem with his method. My first post was directed at wildcat hunter (as can clearly be seen by my quote), but for some reason you felt compelled to respond to my post, and rolling your eyes at me no less. I guess it must have struck a nerve when I bad mouthed the drugs?


 No, you didn't strike a nerve when you bad mouthed drugs. We were giving someone advice, good advice. And you came in and pretty much said it was foolishness. Then you talked about how you encourage your birds to eat off the ground, and how crows and other wild birds go to the same tossed out seed to eat. You spoke of your aviary being on the ground. Then you say how you never worm your birds. God knows what they could be picking up from the soil or the wild birds. You think dewormers and drugs are foolish. All that, and you don't know why I rolled my eyes. You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but trying to make the rest of us who do care about our birds and doing the best we can for them, sound ridiculous, is absurd. You talk about drugs like they are a bad thing. Those drugs have saved many birds, and stopped many illnesses from wiping out lofts. They are a good thing. Using them correctly is also important. But going to far the other way isn't the answer either.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Alamo said:


> What I want to know is,the folks who let their birds do what they want on the ground,and feed them outside the loft on the ground,ARE THEY racing pigeon flyers,or just folks that have birds for fun ??? If it was so good to feed outside on the ground,Mike Ganus and ALL the other great RACING pigeon guys would be doing it...BUT THEY DON`T !!!...Alamo


I win races with birds that I let walk and eat on the ground the guy who has won average speed in my combine of over 100 lofts in both the yb's and ob's seasons last year lets his birds peck on the ground and like me will throw them feed on the ground when we have them out bumming on an off day or while we are settling them. My bird that was 8th in the LBRA last year was as good as a winner in the LBRA but I got beat by ppl 25 miles past me on a long enders day would come home from training and peck on the ground for 5 to 10 mins before she would go in I thought she was coming home late from tosses until I beat the birds home on some head wind tosses and saw what she was doing. I have birds to enjoy them and I enjoy having them come over to me in the yard while I give them a treat. If I don't win as many races as I can because of it oh well I win enough as is. That being said it is very rare they get to bum during race season once they are ready for the races they are in the crate, the air, or in the loft aside from the birds like my 8th place LBRA bird last year. 

There's a lot of things that are done by winning lofts that the average person would think were crazy. 

Here's a video from the AIC One Loft Race of all the birds bumming on the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ4h2jesfak


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

ace in the hole said:


> All well and good if you just have homers. If you are a racer and plan to win races you do not let them forage on the ground. They call those flyers "someone who also flew".
> 
> I have told this story on here before and to make my point I'll tell it again. In the FM club the meetings were held at the Presidents house. On the way there for a meeting before the young bird season I saw a big flock of pigeons in a cut corn field a mile or more from there. A little while after arriving I heard Tony (the president) say " Look, there come my birds. They have been routing for two hours every day." I never told him where they were spending that time every day. He also didn't have a good young bird race season that year.
> 
> I want to know when my birds are routing out of sight that they are still in the air!


I would think it wasn't the fact the birds were eating the ground that messed him up that season it was the fact the birds weren't flying and he thought the birds were flying more then the were so he didn't train them enough thinking they were flying too much already.

I used to see a guys birds land on the beach about a half mile from his house and peck for a while before going home. But he flew good since once the race season came around he didn't let them out to loft fly they were only tossed so they had to fly to get home.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Walter,I have seen the birds from AIC bumming on the ground....BUT...They are fed in the loft,NOT on the ground....And they are medicated and wormed....And you also stated that once the racing season starts,there is no more bumming outside....Either in the AIR,or in the LOFT.....My thoughts exactly !!.....Alamo
PS:Got my LBRA bands*...Love the blue color*...My favorite !!


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I would think it wasn't the fact the birds were eating the ground that messed him up that season it was the fact the birds weren't flying and he thought the birds were flying more then the were so he didn't train them enough thinking they were flying too much already.


If the birds weren't allowed to eat on the ground they would not have been in the field. It was what created the problem. You are right about him thinking his birds were in great condition. He even said it that day.

In 2008 I had one bird who was an auction bird that started landing in the field behind the loft after loft flying. Even though it was an auction bird I removed it from the team before the others started following it down to the field. My birds won 50% of the races they were in that young bird season.


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

gbhman said:


> That is absolutely true. You can give them every vitamin/mineral supplement on the market and they will still want to forage the ground because they still need something they aren't getting. I've been trying to tell this to people for years, but it just goes in one ear and out the other... I guess they have worms on the brain (or in it LOL).


My birds are healthy. Two eggs, two hatches, two racers. I give my birds vitamins and supplements and my birds NEVER go to the ground. There is a huge difference between sterile and clean. Common sense clean.

I have not purchased any medication in the last three years. I simply don't need it. For anyone to say that proper treatment and care of ones pigeons will lead to illnesses is wrong.

Simply put... if you do not give your birds proper care 1. DON'T brag about it. 2. Don't advocate it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

rpalmer said:


> My birds are healthy. Two eggs, two hatches, two racers. I give my birds vitamins and supplements and my birds NEVER go to the ground. There is a huge difference between sterile and clean. Common sense clean.
> 
> I have not purchased any medication in the last three years. I simply don't need it. For anyone to say that proper treatment and care of ones pigeons will lead to illnesses is wrong.
> 
> *Simply put... if you do not give your birds proper care 1. DON'T brag about it. 2. Don't advocate it.*


*

*
Good Post.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

rpalmer said:


> My birds are healthy. Two eggs, two hatches, two racers. I give my birds vitamins and supplements and my birds NEVER go to the ground. There is a huge difference between sterile and clean. Common sense clean.
> 
> I have not purchased any medication in the last three years. I simply don't need it. For anyone to say that proper treatment and care of ones pigeons will lead to illnesses is wrong.
> 
> Simply put... if you do not give your birds proper care 1. DON'T brag about it. 2. Don't advocate it.


Do you race your birds? If so you must have stocked up on medication 3 years since I can't believe if you race your birds that you could go 3 years without needing any medication. Even the best flyers birds will pick up stuff in the race crate drinking water out of communal water pans and stepping in other birds dropping from other lofts while in the race crates.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

rpalmer said:


> Simply put... if you do not give your birds proper care 1. DON'T brag about it. 2. Don't advocate it.


*I quite agree....*


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