# Incoming squeaker



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Kim just brought over this darling little Blue Bar squeaker who appears to have a nasty case of canker.  

I was able to get a Spartrix down him without any problems even though I believe I saw a spot in his throat. 
Prior to bringing the little one over, Kim did a quick exam & noticed his tongue appeared to be black. This is confirmed by the second picture. He is able to move it somewhat & appears to have been eating some small seeds.

She will put him on heat & give him 1 Spartrix tomorrow & 1 on Wednesday.

Any other suggestions on what we might do for this little sweetie other than the normal procedure?

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cindy, curious here, what if anything do you attribute the black tongue to? Do you think it to be genetic?

fp

Wow, just looked at the pix, you have some work ahead of you. I had two birds almost simultaneously fall in my lap w/black tongues and asked here about it. One link pushed my way said a possibility of being genetic. But over time, it appeared to change coloring. One I suspected w/good reason of having a fungus problem. Think the other did as well, but not as dramatically.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Hi Cindy, curious here, what if anything do you attribute the black tongue to? Do you think it to be genetic?
> 
> fp


My first thought when Kim mentioned this on the phone was the possibility it was becoming necrotic. However, he is able to move it about, to a degree as the canker pretty much has it confined. Then I was thinking, perhaps he just has a black tongue. 
I told Kim I would mention it to you folks to see if there were any thoughts.

He was quite active as I was trying to check things out.  

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, don't know if you wanna give it a try or not, but I've had some very good results w/a couple of herbal remedies that are pharmaceutically manufactured.

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/sinornis/index.cfm

Phil has tried them as well and I believe he is enthusiastic. 

I've used the Citromed and Berimax. I'm thinking actually that the Berimax might have berberine in it, tried to find out, but their not telling. Anyway,
this of course in addition to the normal drill. He is such a little cutie, hope he improves rapidly.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhh...

Little Baby Daisy, who at about two weeks of age therebouts, and who had those odd 'grey' blotches and spots on her skin, also had Canker on both sides of her throat...

I tried her on the 'Berimax' for I think 7 days...after about three days the Canker lumps changed from yellow to off white, then got smaller, and in about five days or so it was cleared up.

The Ronidazole has been recommended for the very young, and I was hoping the 'Berimax' might be kind to the littlest ones also, or even kinder.

Spartix and Dimetridazole or Emtryl and so on can kinda mess them up at least temporarily, when they are quite young, so they walk like Fred Munster for a few days...if you dose them too lightly you get the weaker organisms, and maybe leave the stronger ones lurking, and doseing them heavy enough is easily a mite much for their system...

So, I was curious to try the 'Berimax' (you just mix it in their drinking Water) and I dosed her if anything a little on the heavy side (being Summer here and I did not reduce the concentration to account for them drinking more here than say they would in Norway or Sweden and so on) and she never seemed to mind it one bit, so far as I could tell.

Had a few other cases of it in incomeing Juvenile Birds, and did the same...in fact I just went ahead and put everyone on it for a week or so..just for good measure, and they all found it agreeable.

I drank a big glass full to see what it was like and I kinda liked it.

In fact, it could sell well as a 'Bitters' for mixed drinks.

Seems to work well for the Trichomona/Canker...

Your sitaution there is a mite more that the usual, with that mandible involvement like it is...

Good luck...!

Good thing you caught this when you did...

...is their appetite still good?



Anyway, read up on the link in the earlier posts here, for the 'Citromed' and the 'Berimax'...

Might be good to have them on hand...



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

"Fishzole" (Metronidazole = brand name, Flagyl) is supposed to be safe for babies and we've used it on very young pigeons with no ill effects. You can buy it from any pigeon supply. I like the tablets because they are easier to administer than liquid, though it also comes in a liquid form. You have to split the pills, though. 

Emtryl can be dangerous if you give them too much...causes neurological problems and even death if you accidentally overdose.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Don't I remember that they took Emtryl (Dimetridazole) off the market here in the States a few years ago? I still have some and I don't like to use it if I don't have to but it does work. I've got one pigeon who got the navel form of the disease and I dosed him with it a long time ago and he's definitely got neurological problems--he thinks he owns the entire loft. As he's a small pigeon, it's like a Napoleon syndrome. And he was such a sweetie when he was young and in the hospital, too! Here's a picture that shows what a wonderful fellow he used to be before he OD'ed on the Emtryl (he's the one getting preened by Charcoal, whom he preened incessantly just days before):

http://community.webshots.com/photo/418120185/418135925FRmtcP

Pidgey

P.S. No, I don't actually think it was the Emtryl which turned him into a jerk-the testosterone did it.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Emtryl might have been banned for awhile. I bought some awhile back because I knew I should rotate canker meds. Unfortunately I bought it before I had a chance to thoroughly research it and when I learned it has a narrow safety margin that made me afraid to use it. Instead I've been rotating between the stuff in Global's 3-in-1 (Ronidazole, as I recall), Spartrix (Carnidazole) and Flagyl/Fishzole (Metronidazole). Had a youngster last year with a really nasty case of Trich and my vet put him and my whole flock on Flagyl. It worked well.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

He is in a bad state, reminds me of Piglet when I found him. 

I like to use Spartrix first because it reduces the canker quickly and then Metronidazole for 10 days. I use liquid Metronidazole which can be drizzled over the nodules.

But I understand from more experienced rehabbers that the two can be used at the same time, stopping the Spartrix after 3 days.

That baby's eye colour is well developed for a squeaker.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cindy,

Here's a link to Jedd's and some cellulose coated Metronidazole:

http://www.jedds.com/SearchResults.asp

Didn't have any vomiting probs w/that. You do need pill splitter.

Some liquid Secnidazole (I've used the powdered form added to water), this drug can be combined w/Flagyll/Metronidazole as well. Cynthia's suggestion about drizzling sounded trick  .

And this one kicked butt for me on a tough one in the same area as yours;

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=64&SubCategoryID=541&ProductID=4396

It's a combo of metronidazole and secnidazole.

Jedd's does currently carry the dimetridazole, but it was removed a while ago for reasons explained earlier.

And, the IMC's Doctor's Corner Formulary:

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The Doctors Corner/formulary.htm

fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Cynthia's suggestion about drizzling sounded trick


Ah..well,originally that came from Helen....  

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

cyro51 said:


> Ah..well,originally that came from Helen....
> 
> Cynthia


cool  

fp


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Wow.. this poor little one has canker pretty bad, I use the tablets to treat and usually can see a difference withing 24 hours, unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available on the pigeon sites but I did find tablets for individual treatment here http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html 

Now on the Black tongue I can tell you that in our homers a black tongue is telling us the bird is not in condition and possible dealing with a respiratory infection and lack of adequate oxygen supply and the tip of the tongue turns black like this shows, although in the case of this little one it could be that it is filled with canker and causing the oxygen levels to be lower, of course this has been only told to me and I never questioned it so I could be wrong.

Ellen


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

relofts said:


> Wow.. this poor little one has canker pretty bad, I use the tablets to treat and usually can see a difference withing 24 hours, unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available on the pigeon sites but I did find tablets for individual treatment here http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-canker.html
> 
> Now on the Black tongue I can tell you that in our homers a black tongue is telling us the bird is not in condition and possible dealing with a respiratory infection and lack of adequate oxygen supply and the tip of the tongue turns black like this shows, although in the case of this little one it could be that it is filled with canker and causing the oxygen levels to be lower, of course this has been only told to me and I never questioned it so I could be wrong.
> 
> Ellen


Thank you Ellen & those who offered their suggestions on how to deal with this most unfortunate situation. 

Kim has possession of the pij & for whatever reason she has been unable to log onto this site  , so I have forwarded the information to her.

I did speak with her last evening & she said administered the second Spartrix without incident & the pij seemed to be no worse for wear.  

Cindy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cindy, 

Is the whole tongue black or just the tip? Also, is it black or blue? A blue tipped tongue can be hereditary and nothing to worry about. A blue coated tongue, the entire thing can be a sign of Candida.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Cindy,
> Is the whole tongue black


Yes it is.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

*Squeaker update*

Kim called a little bit ago to let me know the baby was beginning to breath quite hard. As we were talking she looked over to check him & he had passed away.  

God Bless you little squeaker.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Cindy, thanks to both of you for trying to ease this poor little guys suffering.
I'm sorry you were unable to get him early enough to give him a second chance.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry.

Reti


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Cindy.  

The problem with canker is that we don't know what damage it has done, we can only hope that it has done no damage deeper down than we can see and that the meds will work.

Cindy, has Kim tried putting out water with a canker med in it as a prophylactic for the wild birds? Or giving them seed coated in a a canker preventative? I had to do that once for my park birds when there was one that was visibly badly affected, would not be caught and eventually disappeared. I don't know whether it worked, but it didn't do any harm.


Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Cindy, 

Sorry to hear about this latest casualty...he looked healthy for the most part going by the pictures

Canker is also harder on younger birds who haven't built up an immune response as well.

Take care,


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

cyro51 said:


> I am so sorry, Cindy.
> 
> The problem with canker is that we don't know what damage it has done, we can only hope that it has done no damage deeper down than we can see and that the meds will work.
> 
> ...


Thank you fp, Reti, Cynthia & Brad.

Yes, she does treat their water source. She is so conscientious & does whatever she can to aid in keeping her feral flock healthy & happy.  

We have had some pretty wild thunder, lightening & rain storms the past couple weeks. I'm sure this is a big time stress factor for our feral friends.  

Cindy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> She is so conscientious & does whatever she can to aid in keeping her feral flock healthy & happy.


Yes, she is. Pity all feral flock can't have an angel like her looking over them.

Cynthia


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*Cindy, has Kim tried putting out water with a canker med in it as a prophylactic for the wild birds? * 

They have medicated water right now. I try to do that when ever I have a 3 day weekend. It seems like the pijs show up with some sort of problem when we have a weather change and they all seem to be sqeakers.

This sign on process is confusing. I finally tried to figure this out. I could not sign on as Kippy so I went to reregister (new username and email). I went to sign on with my new info and it logged me on with Kippy (old info). I don't know what just happen.
I'm not signing off because I don't know if I can sign back on. If you see Kippy online for unlimited hours thats the reason.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Kim,

If you have cookies enabled you don't need to log off when you want to leave the site, you won't appear as being on line when you leave but you won't have to log in when you return.

What I have found is that if I have logged off for John to post and then log on again a password is entered automatically, but it isn't necessarily the right password for the user name, so I have to delete that and enter my own password.

Confused? You will be. 

Cynthia


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

*Confused? * 

Yes, I am.  

I'm use to being confused so I can handle it so I'm just gonna let it be. I'm not gonna try to figure it out because then I would just get frustrated. Confused and frustrated, I'll pass on that.


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