# Catch Bird or Not?



## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi everyone,

I'm new to these forums and to pigeons in general and would like some advice on a situation my inexperience has got me into!

I have always been fascinated by dovecotes and recieved one as a xmas present in 2004. Once in place, i took myself down to the local auctions and purchased a pair of 'Garden Fantail' doves. After homing these 'doves' for a month i released them, expecting them to hang round the dovecote looking pretty, never straying far. The 'doves' look remarkably like white pigeons and dissappear all day, only returning before last light to roost on a neighbours roof! The 'doves' fly as far as the eye can see and seems to cover many miles on their travels which i believe is not the behaviour of normal fantails. This leads me to believe i am the proud owner of 2 pigeons!

Once resigned to this fact, i became more and more interested in keeping pigeons and fell in love with the personalities of my pair. After much patience i had both eating out of my hand but still have no idea what they get upto on their travels. 

Recently one of my babies fell victim to some sort of predator and did not survive. This left me with a dilema of what to do with the mate, should i catch him and keep him safe or should he fly free as originally intended? I was worried he would be vulnerable on his own, also worried he would find a flock and we would never see him again. 

This week he has returned with what look like a feral pigeon mate and they seem very happy together. He no longer roosts on the roof and i have no idea where he goes. Both birds are getting very dirty and the once white pigeon is jet black in places now. They only come back to feed twice a day.

I have a reasonable size shed that i have converted into a loft and would like some advice on whether it would be fair to catch the pair or not. Also if i do catch them, do you think i would ever be in a position where i could let them fly free from the loft and expect them to return??

Any help would be greatly apprecieted!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and welcome to pigeons.com

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of one of your birds & your dilemna. First of all, where do you live?

Sounds like you have homing pigeons, and probably not fantails, or maybe a mix.

The remaining homing pigeon has adjusted well to life outdoors, but with that also comes predators. You can try to catch him next time they come to eat, here is a site for trap:

http://www.racingbirds.com/ptrap.html

If you want your birds trained to return, you should keep them in a loft with a bob trap type door, where they come in but can't leave. You should not allow them to come and go. Your bird has aclamaited to outdoor living and may not return if you let him out again, especially if he has a feral mate. Also, they may have babies if they only come to eat and are gone all day. You should not catch them if they do.

We release our birds only on empty stomachs and to the sound of a seed can shaking or whistle. They have been trained that this sound means food. After hearing it they return to the coop, after 1/2 hour to an hour flight (daily), and stay in after that.


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Treesa,

Thanks for the advice...

I live in north west England. 

I had been concerned that if they didn't have babies now then they soon would. I wondered, if they had young, would they both leave the nest to feed or would one usually stay on the nest?

Also there is still my moral dilemma of should i catch these birds or let nature take its course? Do you think it would be unfair to the birds to raise them in a loft now after flying free for so long? and sort of 'train' them to return to feed etc.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

When the chicks are very young, one or the other will stay on the nest. As they get older they may both leave and you may see both. You should see them eating huge quantites of seed thru-out the day.

If they have eggs they will take turn eating at least twice a day. You will see only one at a time to eat.

It would be unfair to capture a wild feral pigeon in a loft, but not your own bird. This is a very difficult situation and a hard decision, I'm sure. Even if your bird was caught, he would leave if given the opportunity, since he has a mate and perhaps babies.

If you let them remain outside, can you keep an eye on them and feed and water them for the rest of their lives?


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

I haven't seen either bird individually, only together and haven't noticed a change in the amount of seed they eat. I am concerned about the state of the birds, they must be roosting in a chimney or something like that because my white one is blacker by the day. 
I keep convincing myself that they would both be better in my loft.They could raise young in safety and eventually be allowed out for exercise. But then i wouldn't want to make them unhappy if this is the wrong decision and only looking out for my best interests, not theirs.
I am aware that time is against me as i'm sure family planning has been discussed and once eggs are layed the matter is really took out of my hands. 
Before the mate arrived i had toyed with the idea of putting my white one (sylvester!) into the loft and buying a mate for him. Choosing his own partner has complicated matters!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm sorry this is such cause for worry, but it means you care about the lives of the birds involved.

If you see them together at the feeder, then there are no eggs, as long as they both linger. I have some hens who will hop off the nest, inhale some seed and water and fly back quickly.

It is up to you to trap your bird, or not, but do it quickly.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi bt3401,

My own understanding, is that a true and rightly formed/desiged DoveCote, whether in fact for Pigeons or less likely, for some other amenible orders of Doves, is a structure which invites them TO build their nests in it, roost in it or find comfort and safety in it for their liesures and sleeps.

If the one you posess is not inviting to them, maybe review the design and review old or ancient forms to determine what is lacking.

Otherwise, I see no point in trying to capture a seemingly conteted feral pair...in order to oblige them to accomidate conditions they do not find attractive in their own judgement.

If you do perfect the design, and feed them for their grazeings nearbye every day, they will nest and roost and raise their young in the Dovecote and you, and they, may be happy while staying right with their Nature.

Here, in my crappy old commercial building I rent, one area of the soffet, at the corner of the building, fell out. This is about 12 feet up. This has been the continuous nest and night roost of a feral pair for several years now. They used to be, and somewhat still are, members of a mutable feral flock whom I feed every day right there under that eve. They have raised continuously, in all Seasons, many pairs of babys!

Now, in effect, I could make this outer periphery of the building a de-facto Dovecote by removeing the rest of the continuous soffet, and provideing divisions at suitable distances, and thus provide sufficiently high, safe, friendly divided places for them to build their nests and roost and raise their young, and for them to know that immediate happy grazeing, drinking Water and batheing opportunity, as well as my visiting with them or crouching to graze 'with' them, is avialable only some few yards away.


So, study the right design of how the form and particulars of a prospective dovecote will serve the interests of the Birds in their judgement of the matter, and you will have the best of both worlds, where, to one degree or another, you may enjoy them in their feral or wild presence, and, to some degree, if you like, to gain their acceptance as someone they will welcome, abide, tolerate, or include as a member of their community.

These accomidations of course must in their view and judgment, as well as practically in function, preclude the opportuning of preditors of various kinds...Cats, Rats, Snakes, Marmots, children, whatever...

I am glad you introduced the subject of Dovecotes!

They seem so forgotten now-a-days, in favor of trapping-lofts and cages and so on, which, at best, are only someways 'there' as for ideal...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi bt3401,
Welcome to PigeonTalk 
What a predicament it seems you have with your pet Pigeon/s.
To catch or not to catch, that is the question 
I am thinking that Sylvester seems happy to have chosen his 'wild girl', if he seems happy with her, perhaps it would be best to keep them together (and not catch him and get a new partner).
If you do keep them as a pair, your babies would be crossbreeds, however for the purpose of keeping 'pet' pigeons these are just as beautiful as any other (I have a crossbreed Fantail/Nun pigeon called Penny, who quacks like a Duck!).
You could try to train them to return to your Dovecote, by using food as an incentive.
Leaving the entry open and placing the food inside would start to get them familiarised with the dovecote, and in time you could train them to return (like with the whistle or shaking can of food) to the loft.
If you do this it would probably be best if after they are trained to the loft you still released them to fly (as the hen is a wildtype, and is used to flying), if so you would release them on an empty stomach, then shake the can to return them to feed.
One concern I have is that your Sylvester is white, this makes him very susceptible to being caught by predators (like hawks), as he stands out, this may have been why you lost your other white pigeon. So infact the black on him may be helping keep him safe at the moment.

As for the breedof Sylvester, do you have any photos of him? We may be able to help you with identifying his breed. You can upload any pics of him to my site at www.pixalbums.net if you have some, then we can see them.

Let us know what you decide to do
Regards
Alaska


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for the advice Alaska 

My plan was not to put them back into the dovecote, as they have pretty much decided themselves that they don't want to! But to put them into the large shed that I have converted into a loft. If i do decide to do this i will also build an aviary onto the side of the loft.
The plan will always be to let them fly whenever possible and as for having crossbreed babies, this doesn't concern me in the slightest. I treat my adopted feral exactly the same as sylvester!
What i am considering at the moment is to catch the pair and keep in the loft for a few weeks then let them decide where they would like to stay by letting them out and seeing if they return to the loft. If they do not then i will carry on feeding as i am now, if they do then i will provide shelter and let them excercise daily.
Do you think this is reasonable or crazy?

Ps. I hadn't considered that Sylvester would be a lot safer if he wasn't white. Thanks for that thought.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello again,

I think it is the most reasonable thing to do given the circumstances, your bird is domestic & you should try to re-introduce him to a new loft, but the mate is a different story. She may or may not be willing, depends on how Sylvester handles it.

If Sylvester is the male, she will be more inclined to follow him as the male pigeons provides the home and the nest, and are the "boss". It may be difficult should Sylvester be the female.

Also, make sure there aren't any babies they are feeding in the outside.

Make sure the new converted loft provides plenty of ventilation, and that it is predator and weather proofed.


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi,

Thanks for all the valuable advice. I decided to catch the pair after much consideration. Both are happy and well in their new loft. 
I think we will soon be expecting little one's with all the bowing and cooing going on at the moment, but all the family have diferent opinions as to which one will lay the eggs!! Sylvester may not be the man we thought he was!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the update and sharing the picture.

Looks like one happy couple, I'm glad you caught them and they are happy in their new loft.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad you caught them. How wonderful they are happy and safe in their loft now.
They are both beautiful birds.
Thanks for the update.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

bt3401 said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for all the valuable advice. I decided to catch the pair after much consideration. Both are happy and well in their new loft.
> *I think we will soon be expecting little one's with all the bowing and cooing going on at the moment, but all the family have diferent opinions as to which one will lay the eggs!! * Sylvester may not be the man we thought he was!!


Your birds are beautiful & do appear to be very happy & content.  

As a general rule of thumb, the male will 'court' the female by cooing, extending his crop & turning in circles while fanning his tail. 
The female's job is to take in all the attention.  
The ultimate proof however is in who lays the eggs.

Just a suggestion, you might want to have a supply of artificial eggs on hand, in the event you wish not to have a flock of your own. 

I allowed Frank & Jessie to raise two babies & when it was time, Bonnie & Clyde were released to a familiar flock as they were common pijjies & seemed to have learned well from Mom & Dad.

I also allowed Mikko & Pijette to raise two babies, however they have remained as pets. They are both white & the thought of releasing them was never an option. 

It's artificial eggs for all now.  

Cindy


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi bt3401,
Thanks for the update on what is happening in your loft 
What a good idea to convert your shed into a loft for these guys, I am sure they will be very happy there.
Pigeons are more inclined to make a loft 'their own' if they raise babies in it, so if your pair are courting each other this is a good thing.
From the photo you have posted Slyvesters 'partner' does not look like a 'wild type pigeon', it looks to have some grizzle (the marks around it's face) and possibly also some reduced (which is why it looks paler in colour). It is definately a gorgeous looking pigeon, no wonder Sylvester couldn't resist 
You may be suprised at the beautiful babies these two could end up making for you!
Aswell as cooing and crop filling, the male also will 'drive' the female to nest (in other words get behind her and run at her towards the nest), the male will also sit in the nest and make a cooing noise and shudder his wings up and down slightly to attract the female. If they do lay eggs and you don't see them do it, the female sits on the eggs at night, and the male will take over mid morning till evening (however the female does sometime get in there for an hour or two in the day aswell).
Do you have an area made up as a nest for them?
All you need is a boxed area around 2ft square with some nesting material in it, here is a pic of one of my pigeons sitting in her nest for reference:
http://www.pixalbums.net/post.php?site=Pigeon&album=Alaska&pix=rubyonegg.jpg
Not sure if this has already been discussed, but do you have Pigeon Food and Pigeon Grit for them? The food is a specific mix for them the get the right amount of protein, and the Pigeon Grit (which is red in colour) is used by them to crush food in their crop and give them minerals to stay healthy. And ofcourse fresh water daily 
Here is a pic of pigeon food and pigeon grit for reference:
http://www.pixalbums.net/post.php?site=Pigeon&album=Alaska&pix=pfood.jpg
Goodluck in getting them settled, let us know how things go.
Regards
Alaska


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi bt3401, congratulations on having two beautiful birds. They both look so healthy.

And, Alaska, yours is very beautiful too.

maggie


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Alaska,

The behaviour you describe is EXACTLY what is going on at the moment. Sylvester's mate is constantly bowing, cooing, extending his tail feathers and charging at Sylvester!
The mate also sits in the nest very regularly making lots and lots of noise!
The loft is an ongoing project. They seem happy in there and have spent time building a nest in a ceramic bowl that i placed in there. I plan on extending the loft with a large outside aviary this weekend and as i would like to see this pair raise young of their own, i plan on building many nest boxes/perches etc.
As for food, i'm lucky to have a large pigeon supply warehouse less than a mile from where i live. I was originally feeding Sylvester a mix specifically for Garden Doves (apparently same as pigeon mix but without corn as doves are prone to putting on weight??). I have since changed the food to a regular breeding mix (Recommended at the shop for feeding during breeding). I also provide an oyster shell grit type mix but the birds do not seem to use a lot of this. Because of that I also provide a red grit pickstone block available as i was aware that the birds were not using the oyster shell, they seem to love this pickstone!

How long does the 'courtship' last normally? and would you recommend giving the birds some space during this time? i.e. not spending as much time with them during this period?


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*congratulations*

On thier mating. Babies should arrive shortly. Within 3-6mos. If you are around your birds they get use to you and go on about thier life.


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

alaska said:


> Hi bt3401,
> From the photo you have posted Slyvesters 'partner' does not look like a 'wild type pigeon', it looks to have some grizzle (the marks around it's face) and possibly also some reduced (which is why it looks paler in colour).


Hi Alaska,

Could you go into more detail on how to tell that Sylvester's mate is not a feral.

Thanks in advance!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

How long does the 'courtship' last normally? and would you recommend giving the birds some space during this time? i.e. not spending as much time with them during this period?


Courtship will go on until the eggs are layed, Sylvester should lay within ten days.

If they seem intimidated by you I would give them time, until they get used to you. My birds don't mind me hanging around them anymore, they just go about their business when I leave.

If you allow Sylvester and "Tweetie" (sorry, I can't resist) to have several rounds of babies, you have to remember that the babies will have to be seperated eventually so that they don't mate with each other. Sylvester is a beautiful hen no wonder "Tweetie" fell in love with her. 

Sylvester's mate does look like he is domestic, except he doesn't have a band. Most feral pigeons are grey and blue colored with either black checks or bars, so he must have stood out of the crowd. It is possible that he or his ancestors are domestic. I have several white's with the same grizzle pattern.


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for the info Treesa,

When would you think about seperating the babies and would they be seperated for life or until they found a mate of their own?

Also, i have no problems with having several birds in the loft or even a small flock, would you recommend introducing different birds into the loft to allow the babies to pair up without cross breeding?

I will still want to control the breeding with artificial eggs etc but i would like the birds to have partners, if the babies paired up with birds from different parents could they be re-introduced as a pair into the loft with the others? Are pigeons happy without partners?

What would be your course of action with one mated pair and two babies?

Thanks.

Ps. Sorry for all the questions!!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, the birds can mingle once they have mates from different pigeons.

They should be seperated, males from hens once they mature, that can be anywhere from 4 to 6 months of age. Pigeons do well apart as well  as well as together, during breeding season.

You will have inbred birds if sisters and brothers mate. 

I have two pet pigeons raised since birth who are sister and brother. They did mate out of the need for bonding, and I didn't have the heart to seperate them since they had no mom and dad., but I pull their eggs and put dummy eggs down. 

You could just keep parents and a set of babies, if you wan't. If you have a hen and male out of one nest sometimes they do bond and will try to become mates if they aren't seperated.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Sounds to me like Sylvester is definately the hen and her new partner is the male from the description you gave of their behaviour 
Regarding nest boxes, if you have just the one pair (which you do...at the moment  ) it is best to setup two nest boxes.
Basically they will court and then lay eggs in the first nest, then when the new baby is about 15days old, they will start to court again and the hen will go to lay in the second nest, while the male continues to feed the new born in the first nest. They will continue like this as long as they are content and you let them, so seperation or artificial eggs will be something to think about down the track.


> Could you go into more detail on how to tell that Sylvester's mate is not a feral.


As Treesa has mentioned this guy (lol I was thinking 'Tweetie' aswell, but no pressure...it's up to you  ) looks to be possibly a domestic pigeon.
It's a little difficult to be certain from the angle he is in the photo and the lighting (it's quite common to get that dull look in a dark corner of a loft pic), but from what I can see you have a Blue Check Dilute Grizzle Pigeon.
A 'normal' wildtype pigeon is usually just a Blue Bar or Blue Check.

Let me explain what each one means:
-Blue is the pigment colour of his feathers (Well to be technically correct the pigment is actually black and is the same as wildtype)
-Check is the pattern on his wings (a checker pattern of lights and darks, the wildtype pigeon can have this or more commonly the bars that run down the wing like lines)
-Dilute is a colour modifier gene that makes the underlying colour (in this case blue/black) appear lighter in colour (as in watered down and diluted).
-Grizzle is a genetic factor that makes the pigeon have little spots and dots on them, like your male has around his face and chin area.

It is possible that a feral pigeon (wild) may have both grizzle and dilute, although this is very unlikely. It usually only takes around 4 generations for ANY pigeon's siblings to return back to the wildtype colour when breeding in the wild with other wildtypes.

Now normally you would expect that any domestic pigeon would have a leg band around one of it's legs that identifies it back to it's owner.
This being said, many people do breed pigeons and either choose not to band them, or do not have access to the bands, so it is not totally unheard of a domestic pigeon not to have a leg band.

So...What I think I most probable is that you new male pigeon may have been released to fly, or released himself from a loft somewhere and went for a fly, found a group of feral pigeons..liked their company...hung around a bit...then one day saw this really cute looking new white girl pigeon coming to visit,... and decided to get to know her better...you know the rest of the story 
Ofcourse, there are other possibilities, but I think this may be the most likely.

Regards
Alaska


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I really enjoyed your post Alsaka, hope you don't mind MY BUTTING in and answering some of the questions about "Sylvester & Tweetie" birds.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Lol, Don't mind at all Treesa, more knowledge in greater numbers I say 
There goes the reference to Sylvester and Tweetie again...lol no pressure!!!! Tweet Tweet 
Regards
Alaska


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

We've got an egg!!!!!


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Woohooo!! 
Thats great news, sounds like your pair have not only settled in with each other, but also with their new home and you..Wow that was quick 
Pigeons usually lay two eggs at a time, one day after the other, so expect to find another egg three tomorrow!
Now is the time you can sort out for sure which one is male and which is female.
The female (I think Sylvester is the female (hen)) will sit on the eggs at night time, while the male usually takes most of the day responsibilities (although the hen will sit on the eggs on and off throughout the day aswell.
Once both eggs are laid they should startto incubate, and then the one sitting on them nights is definately the girl 
Keep us posted on whats happening.
Goodluck!!
Alaska


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Great news!*


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## bt3401 (Sep 16, 2005)

Another egg this morning!! Both seem happy and sharing duties as predicted!!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Congratulations!*

And now comes the hard part - waiting and waiting and...


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