# Pigeon has 'air lump' on front neck and worms



## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi there,

I have 2 adult hens, who have stayed with me for about 2 years since I rescued them. Recently they've had some health problems and I hope people here can give me some advice on, because in my city there is no vet for pet birds.

1) For about half a year now, one of them has had a strange symptom: when it breaths, sometimes, there is something like a small ball that inflates/deflates in the front of its neck, right below the head and slightly to its right. I posted some clips of it below. 

https://youtu.be/HKofgZV8UfI
https://youtu.be/EhxeDP7j_f4
https://youtu.be/acutgZp78Aw

Other than that it's still quite active, playful, has good appetite and lays eggs regularly. This one, since the time it arrived at my house, sometimes also exhibits these 2 symptoms: slightly shivers for some minutes and when it lies down on its tummy, its back moves up and down noticably, as if it is breathing heavily.
Could you please let me know if it's a sign of some kind of disease or bad condition? 

2) 2 weeks ago I spotted worms in the dropping, I am not sure which hen it belongs to. The first time there were 3-4 worms, then it was 1 every few days, and I haven't seen any more worms for almost a week now. 2 years ago, also around this time of the year, the one with the breathing problem I mentioned above also had worms in its dropping 2-3 times in the course of a week. But then the worms stopped appearing so I did not give it any medicine. I called a vet center which mostly specialized on cats and dogs only, and they advised me to give them selamectin. Do you think selamectin can be used on birds, or if my pigeons really need medicine?

Thank you in advance for your help.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

The breathing thing could be a ruptured air sack, but those usual don't deflate so easily. There's not much you can do if that is the case, they either heal or they don't. If it's not bothering her, it's not really a problem.

Worms are very rarely visible. They probably have a bad infestation if what you saw was actually worms. They should be wormed either way, but I do not have any advice for the off-label use of selamectin. I would see what you can find at farm or pet supply store.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you see worms in the droppings, then the bird must be full of worms. If they get bad enough the birds can die. Why would you know they have worms, and do nothing?
Also, would you please post where you are located? That info should be put in your profile so that it comes up when you post.

Worms will just keep on hatching eggs, and they will get more and more worms. If they get enough worms, then even worming them can be dangerous. They can cause a bad blockage and kill them. Also, if one has them, then they will all have them. They all need to be wormed. People should not keep animals unless they learn about them and their needs.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Please worm them asap as they must be very uncomfortable with the amount of worms they are infested with. If you post the area where you live people can advise you where you can get a good, safe wormer for them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The breathing thing that your bird is doing may be caused by worms that have gotten into the crop. Especially where they have had them for so long. But you need to get a de-wormer made for birds. If youjust go the easy route and use what is easy to get, you may kill them.
Birds that fly outside or get to be on the ground need to be wormed once or twice a year with a safe wormer.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you all for your advice. I have added location to my profile. I live in Hanoi, Vietnam. 
I would really appreciate it if you could suggest some kinds of wormer that you think are safe for birds and has little side effect.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Some safe drugs would be
Moxidectin
Ivermectin
Pyrantel Pamoate
Not really sure what is available where you are.
You can come back on here for a dosage if you can find any of these.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3,

Thanks a lot for your prompt reply. You noted that if the bird has severe infestation, worming can cause blockade when a large amount of worms is expelled. I've been searching on this subject, and some people on a chicken forum said that in these cases it's best to worm with Piperazine first and follow up with stronger wormer, like the ones you recommended. But piperazine seems to be prescribed for chickens, do you know if it can be used on pigeons, or if there is an equivalent for pigeons?

From what I've found on the internet so far, ivermertin is sold in my country as an ingredient in drugs for dogs, cats and larger animal only - I need to wait until working hour tomorrow morning to ask if they have drugs made for birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That would be a good idea actually. There is Wazine 17% or 20%, which is Piperazine. 
http://www.jedds.com/shop/wazine-20/
It treats round worms. Not all worms. But might be good to do it that way. If they have something else, then later you would want to use something like Moxidectin Plus which treats all worms. Did the things in the droppings actually look like worms, or could it have been tapeworm, which looks like pieces of rice. You don't usually see roundworms in the droppings unless they are loaded with worms.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you can't find something for pigeons, then Piperazine at 16mg per bird once daily for 2 days is what I find for dosage. Follow up again in 2 weeks. Then find a good wormer as Marina suggested.
In the drinking water it would be 300 mg/gallon for 2 days. Not sure how many birds you have.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I woke up early this morning and its condition has got worse. It is standing sleepily on the balcony and is much less aggressive and protective of its cage when I was cleaning it than usual, and ate very little. I've been calling some pet centers but so far they all told me they don't treat birds. If I cannot find a bird vet within some next hours, is there any thing I can do for it?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You didn't take care of things earlier on, so now that he is really bad, it's a little late. Why is he outside if not feeling well? He should have been brought in and treated sooner.
Have you asked the places you called if they know where they do treat birds?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hope he improves. Is he eating and drinking?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you all for helping me and asking about my bird's progress.

Fortunately this morning I found a vet for her. He prescribed a wormer (mebendazol) and glucose. In the afternoon she drank and ate a little but is still looking tired. The vet said he would follow with antibiotics injection after 1-2 days if she does not get better.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad you were able to get her to a vet. Hope she is well soon. Lovely bird!


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Good to know she is being treated for worms now and fingers crossed she’s strong enough to get well.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mebendazol is toxic to pigeons. That shouldn't be given to a pigeon. Some have died from it. Your vet is not an avian vet. I gave you a list of safe drugs. Mebendazole is not one of them. Even lots of avian vets don't know enough about pigeons.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thankfully my pigeon has made big improvement. Apart from bad worm infestation as many of you suggested, my vet also diagnosed her with crop fungal infection. She was treated with antibiotics for a week, and now she is eating and being playful as usual, even though she's still a bit thin. I hope she will fully recover after a period of eating well and being treated with anti-fungi meds, which will probably arrive within a month. 
My vet does not know the cause of the air lump, only that it's not a swelling of the crop.

Really thank you all for your kind words and help ^_^

@Jay3: I don't know if my vet is a specialized avian vet, but he was the only one from a vet clinic with not so bad reviews in my city that would take my pigeon's case, so he was my only hope. I asked him about ivermectin, but he said it is strong and would require injection, which should be avoided if there are alternatives.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

She enjoyed some days of good health and behaved as if she would lay eggs very soon. But today she seemed slightly less active than usual, and most of her droppings were very dark green with lots of water. The diet was not changed except for some drops of ACV in her drinking water. She's eating and drinking.

Pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ulqntbex7vv303a/AADaxdjtlLnTR6k5tXnje2uwa?dl=0

What do you think this might imply? My vet is nowhere to be reached now, poop analysis cannot be done in my place. If an exact diagnosis is impossible, are there any medicines that can cover most cases?

I don't know if these are relevant:
1) I found 3 blood feathers in the last few days. One of them (in the middle) very likely belongs to her cause I noticed she lost a tail feather looking similar. 2 other I am not sure.
Pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sm2b8pt7hin6mfq/IMG_3811.JPG?dl=0

2) Since the time she got sick 3 weeks ago, it seems to me that when she stretches her right leg and wing, they don't become fully straight. But I am not sure about this as I has seen her done this only few times and not from a good angle. She can still fly.

PS: the antibiotics my vet used for her are Baytril and Unasyn (both by injections for a week)

Many thanks in advance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You say she is eating, but the dark green droppings suggest that she is not. Looks like she is drinking more but not eating much. I would hand feed her and treat for canker. I would treat for canker. Metronidazole works well. 50 mg once daily for an adult, for 10 days.
You said she was given Baytril for a week by injection, but studies have shown that muscle necrosis happens frequently with intramuscular injections. Therefore other routes of administration should be considered when available. You can give liquid or pills by mouth, one time daily.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> You say she is eating, but the dark green droppings suggest that she is not. Looks like she is drinking more but not eating much. I would hand feed her and treat for canker. I would treat for canker. Metronidazole works well. 50 mg once daily for an adult, for 10 days.
> You said she was given Baytril for a week by injection, but studies have shown that muscle necrosis happens frequently with intramuscular injections. Therefore other routes of administration should be considered when available. You can give liquid or pills by mouth, one time daily.


@Jay3: Could there be other reasons for the green droppings? I work at home and can observe her very often and I did see her eating many times yesterday and today. 
About the medicine, could you please let me know if I can use human ones? Good medicines for birds can be take a long time to find in my place. 

May I also ask what particular symptom leads you to think of canker? This will help me better identify it if I encounter it next time.

Thanks for your warning on injections. I did not know about muscle necrosis high risk associating with injections, though in general I also prefer oral method.


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## bootface (Jun 29, 2017)

Check her crop and body condition. She may just be throwing seed or eating a small amount.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bootface is right in that she could just be picking through the seed and throwing or dropping it. She may not be eating as much as you think. 

When a bird gets droppings like that, it is often canker, or something else that has them not eating. When they are sick with other things, they will often come down with canker because of the stress of the other illness. Stress brings on canker, so it's common to go hand in hand with other illnesses. Your bird has been treated with Baytril, so I would try treating for canker.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

@Jay3: thank you for explaining the symptom for me. 

Thank you Bootface. Admittedly, I've never done crop checking. Some sources say that I should feel the grains in the crop with my finger, I tried this both before and after I saw the bird eating, but did not feel anything. 

Today she indeed ate very little grain, mainly ate millet, quinoa, almond pieces and grit. When I gave her glucose solution with syringe, I could feel that her breath smelled bad, does that mean her infection is coming back? Is there any medicines that can help me

I have found Flagyl (human medicine) for her.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Apart from bad breath, her voice is also getting lower and having up and down movement of the tail when she breathes again like before she was treated. Do you think they are just other symptoms of canker or are signs that her infection is getting bad again?

My vet never did any lab analysis of her crop or droppings to find out which fungus she is infected with, but he told me to look for medicines containing Amphotericin B only and would not try using Nystatin even though it will take a long time to get Amphotericin B. Do you know if there's some symptoms that suggest the fungus are not the type that can be treated with Nystatin? Should I try giving her Nystatin?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Tailbobbing is a sign that the bird is having trouble breathing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The breath smelling bad is a sign of canker. I would go ahead and treat her for that.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you cwebster and Jay3. Do you think I can, or should, treat canker and fungi at the same time?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you have both meds then you can.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

@Jay3: thank you very much once again, and sorry for my late response. I was still trying my best to find a vet to do at least a physical check for her. I found one who actually is more used to do necropsy, and another who works in poultry business. Both suspect that my pigeon has Newcastle. She's been given Newcastle antibody and Florfenicol, and now I can only hope that she's strong enough to get over this. Today her droppings are lighter green rather than almost black as before and she's eating more. I still have not ruled out the possibility that she has canker or yeast, though.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

In a pigeon that would be PMV. Your vets are guessing and know nothing about pigeons. They can only come to that conclusion from doing the right tests, which they haven't done. Your bird isn't showing PMV symptoms. Please treat her for canker.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here are some links on PMV

Pigeon PMV
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C485ACB301237BC1720EC485AC&FORM=VDQVAP&ajf=70

PIGEON AID UK
https://www.facebook.com/PigeonAidUk/videos/vb.138209976294214/142981359150409/?type=2&theater


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3. Thank you for trying your best to help my pigeon. I am really grateful for your and other members' kindness.

Being an inexperienced person when it comes to pigeon diseases, I am in very difficult situation right now as you, who is very experienced, and most of all people I ever talked to about my bird in my country are telling me 2 very different things  I wonder if it might be because ND disease is more common in my country and thus it's considered more likely by those people? In any cases, as the disease can be very dangerous and so many people with background in agriculture have told me she might have it, I can't just ignore it.

Right now as she's being given medicines for ND, and she's still drinking and eating (after reading your comment, when watching her I make sure that I see she swallows the food not just picking it) I guess it would be better to finish the ND medication, which will take 5 days, before continue with treating canker. Your explanation about her having canker makes sense to me, I take the problem seriously and I am still watching my birds closely for signs. 

Btw, for canker treatment, I found these on Jeds:
Dimetridazole (Medpet) http://www.jedds.com/shop/cankerex-plus/
Metrinidazole http://www.jedds.com/shop/metronidazolum/
Ronidazole (Medpet) http://www.jedds.com/shop/medizole/ and (Vetafarm) http://www.jedds.com/shop/ronivet-s-vetafarm/

You recommended me Metrinidazole, I am wondering if the others are as good?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Your vets are guessing and know nothing about pigeons. They can only come to that conclusion from doing the right tests, which they haven't done.


You are right about this, even those vets told me that they can only be sure of of a bird having ND by doing a surgery and they are just thinking it's highly likely that she has ND


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Over here we can do tests for it. Not surgery. If it were PMV, which is what a pigeon would get, then there is no medicine for it. Nothing will help. There are vaccines to prevent it, but once a bird has it, there is no med for it. It is a virus, not a bacteria. Therefore, antibiotics have no effect. Your vet should know that. It needs to run it's course. Nothing you can do. But it isn't PMV anyway. You are trying very hard, but are wasting your time going to those vets who know nothing.
If he isn't eating enough, then you need to hand feed him.

As far as those meds are concerned, I would get a tablet, not something you put in the water. Something in the water, you cannot control how much he drinks, so you don't know that he is getting the correct dose. Buy this, and don't go by the directions. Start with 1 tablet, which is 100 mg of Metronidazole. For 9 more days, cut the tablet in half and give him the 1/2 tablet once daily for 9 days (50 mg). That would be 10 days altogether. Better to feed him first, then give the tablet. Metronidazole can make them vomit on an empty crop. But this tablet comes coated, so it does help to control that.
Here is the med:
http://www.jedds.com/shop/meditrich-100-tablets-medpet/


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I ordered it yesterday. Thank you Jay3 for the detailed instruction.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Great! I hope your bird is better soon.
You should keep a good antibiotic also. Baytril would be the one I would choose. Amoxy after that.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Great! I hope your bird is better soon.
> You should keep a good antibiotic also. Baytril would be the one I would choose. Amoxy after that.


Thank you for your suggestion. As it happens I am also thinking about buying some good medicines for common diseases so that I can act quickly if she gets sick next time.

Could you please help me with another question: when I hand feed her, do I need to put the solid food as deep as when I drop liquids to make sure that she does not choke? Also, you said in another thread that the food should be frozen peas. I wonder why is that? I think green peas are too big for my pigeon, can I use other food, for example boiled lentils, mung beans or rice?


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

I have used defrosted frozen peas because they are soft and go down easily. Hope your bird is all better soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know they look big, but they aren't too big. I mean, pigeons eat the large peas that come in pigeon mixes all the time. The frozen peas, defrosted and warmed have a lot of moisture in them, which the other things don't. Also, because of their size, they are less likely to go down the wrong pipe. You put them in her beak, then push them way to the back of the throat and over the tongue. Then close the beak so she can swallow. Then do another. They are safer then feeding other things.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Here is a link about ND. 
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poult...virus-infections/newcastle-disease-in-poultry
Hope your bird is better soon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pigeons rarely get ND. They get PMV, which is a related disease, and I'm sorry,
yesterday I meant to leave you this link and forgot. 
PMV
http://www.pigeon-aid.org.uk/pa/html/paramyxovirus__pmv_.php


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Jay3, excellent link. Thank you for posting it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

cwebster said:


> Jay3, excellent link. Thank you for posting it.


The more info the better. Thanks for yours also.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi cwebster and Jay3,

Thank you very much for all the info. Your explanation of the advantages of green peas makes perfect sense. 

In the last few days it seems to me that the droppings are becoming less dark and less watery, some of them had olive color (I have not hand fed her yet). I attached some images taken today in the link below, could you please give it a look and let me know if you still think that they are signs of canker?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7or0s1zkb0dqygc/AAD7fLlR7aLRX_M-3NDJENvta?dl=0

There are 2 other symptoms that I have suspected since my bird started getting sick but can only be sure of now: 1) she shred feathers with dry blood at the quill a couple of times and 2) her right leg cannot be straitened fully even though it seems she can still fly and walk normally. I checked her knee but did not detect swelling. I asked one of the vets and he told me to give her vitamin B1.


About ND, it's true that my bird does not show most of the symptoms listed in the 2 links you shared, except for watery greenish diarrhea and sneezing. Anyway I am still waiting for the medication of canker and the course of ND medication ends tomorrow.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3. I have been given the canker med for both of my pigeons for 3 days. Their droppings improved in the first 2 days, but today they are watery again.

The one that's the subject of this thread, for about 10 days now she's been acting like she usually does whenever she's about to lay eggs (stay in her nest a lot, thrust her head under her mate's body and coo, sometimes when she is standing the feathers around her cloaca slightly spread out), but usually it would take her less than a week to lay eggs. I checked her abdomen but did not feel any swelling, or maybe I am not experienced enough to detect it. She is still eating but less than usual. Last time when she got better for a couple of days after the Baytril treatment she also acted like this and later instead of laying eggs got ill again. However, her respiratory symptoms seem to be improving. 

Do you think her behavior implies some other illnesses?

Edit: sometimes (a few days before taking canker med) she also has droppings with yellow urate, both she and her mate:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g25bhygvlj59fop/IMG_3917.JPG?dl=0

Edit 2: do I need to give them probiotics along with canker med? They've been given probiotics continuously for 2-3 weeks, will it be too long to continue it for another week to accompany the canker med?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl said:


> Hi Jay3. I have been given the canker med for both of my pigeons for 3 days. Their droppings improved in the first 2 days, but today they are watery again.
> 
> The one that's the subject of this thread, for about 10 days now she's been acting like she usually does whenever she's about to lay eggs (stay in her nest a lot, thrust her head under her mate's body and coo, sometimes when she is standing the feathers around her cloaca slightly spread out), but usually it would take her less than a week to lay eggs. I checked her abdomen but did not feel any swelling, or maybe I am not experienced enough to detect it. She is still eating but less than usual. Last time when she got better for a couple of days after the Baytril treatment she also acted like this and later instead of laying eggs got ill again. However, her respiratory symptoms seem to be improving.
> 
> ...


Yellow urates can be a symptom of canker. I would just continue with the canker meds. After meds give probiotics for a few days. Don't need to give continually. Adding a few drops of ACV in their dish of drinking water may also be beneficial.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you Jay3. I will stop the probiotics for now and continue with canker treatment only. ACV is already put in drinking water.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

She's on her 7th day of Metronidazole now. I think the droppings are now less dark and have more feces, but many are still watery, sometimes quite watery. She is still eating but mainly small seeds and rice, not other bigger size grains.

Could you please show me how to check if her crop is full or not? I am a bit worried that she may get slow crop again like she did when started getting sick. I tried to feel the area right above her keel, going to either side and a bit higher up, but it feels the same to me before or right after I feed her about 5-7 peas for the medicine. What do you think I have done wrong, and how do I know if her crop is full of water? Here's some pictures of her today, I wonder if you can know if her crop is in trouble or not by looking at them?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1m8o0xizyk4806w/AABa-RQHXmtpb7I2e9G2wm8oa?dl=0

If her crop is really full of water, or if I suspect it, is there any medicine I can give her to make her throw up the content of her crop or make it move (ACV is alreay in use)? - I've read somewhere that one way is to not giving her any food for some days but considering that she's already weak I am afraid that would be even more dangerous.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You can tell how much she is eating by checking her droppings and measuring what you give her. Then measure again after she eats. If there is a lot of water in her crop and you push to hard, you can send it up into her throat and aspirate her. Canker does make them drink a lot so sometimes I remove the water dish so they can't fill up on water. Of course then I need to offer the water several times daily and make sure they don't over fill. If I think the bird isn't eating enough then I give supplemental formula.
Getting rid of the canker can even take 2 weeks in some cases, or if particularly resistant, may nee 2 different meds.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> You can tell how much she is eating by checking her droppings and measuring what you give her. Then measure again after she eats.


Thank you for responding so quickly, especially in new year's day. I really appreciate it.

I am giving her access to food all the time. But if most of the poops have normal amount of fecal matter, does it mean that she's not having slow crop? 

Today, for some reasons she just got quiet, no cooing or moaning like the days before. Even when I tried putting my hand in her cage, which rarely fails to make her coo in an angry voice, she pecked at my hand with usual aggression but was still silent. She looked tired even though was still eating as previous days. What do you think can be the problem? I don't know if it can be her full crop but just in case gave her some probiotics and water with garlic.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If she is having enough droppings for the amount she is eating, and most look okay, then the crop must be working. Metro can make her feel unwell also, which can make her eat less. Just having canker can do that too. If not eating enough then you need to supplement.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

What makes me worried most is that her condition changed quite suddenly, only 2 days ago her voice was still normal but at this moment I am almost sure that she has lost her voice, also the tiredness even though she had been given Metro for many days and was not tired earlier. Along with her behavior similar to when she is about to lay eggs, I am wondering if it may have to do with something going wrong with the egg and block her internally. Do you think it's possible considering that this behavior + loss/low voice also appeared right before she was treated for ND and then she recovered for awhile? She's never had soft egg or egg bound before. The only abnormal is that when she started getting sick almost 2 months ago she laid just 1 egg instead of 2 as usual.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How old is she? Could be reproductive problems also. 
However, Metro can make her feel sick, so that plus canker could make her low key. Only a vet could tell you though.
How many days has she been on Metro?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I don't know her age, she's a rescued one. Does laying eggs tend to make a hen rounder like with human ? - because she's very slender and I usually speculate that she's young.

Today is her 10th day, also the last day according to your initial plan, that she's on Metro. If the fecal parts of her droppings are almost as large as an almond, does it mean she's not blocked? She was active this morning even took a bath and had some good droppings, but then in the afternoon did not eat and did not have any droppings.
Also I check her tummy this morning to see if it's swollen or not. I think her muscle is a bit soft, but it's the same in the abdomen as up near the chest.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Very young birds are usually slimmer till they fill out.
If she is eating, and pooping enough for what she is eating then she isn't blocked. Why is she not eating in the afternoon? Is she isn't eating enough, then she needs supplemental feeding.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

For the last 2 days once again she has become pretty active and been eating more. However poops actually get smaller than previous days, usually have diameter of 0.5 - 1 cm, only that they are passed more often. They have water outer rings with urates, sometimes the urine+urates part is much larger than fecal part. Apart from total amount, do you think the tiny size of each poop can also indicate blocking or slow crop?

Also, after some days staying silent, today she cooed again when I teased her, her voice is slightly coarse but with usual loudness.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe she is eating less than you think.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3. Do you think it can has anything to do with worms, and if it's advisable that I worm her and her mate (also sick, I've been asking you about her at the other thread) at this point, when they are still not back to good form? The first vet told me from the beginning that this bird had bad infestation and would need to take dewormer again later, but now I cannot contact him anymore.

I have Pyrantel Pamoate by Medpet:
_Composition:
. Pyrantel Pamoate 20mg
. Praziquantel 5mg
Dose one Mediworm tablet per pigeon. _


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How many times did you deworm the bird? You worm once, then again in 2 weeks. Some will do in 3 weeks.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Only once, almost 2 months ago. As I said the vet told me he would inform me when the time comes for the second dose but he disappeared before that, and both birds got sick again so I kept postponing as I was worried it's not safe to worm them when they are weak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need to google things and read up on things yourself, so you aren't waiting for a vet to tell you what to do. That is a pretty safe wormer. And you don't worm once. You always worm twice. The first worming gets worms but not the eggs. The second will get the worms which have hatched from those eggs. I would worm again with that. Let us know if you get worms.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

*Sneezing*

Hi Jay3. For the last few days I heard her sneezing from time to time. Tonight there was a period of around half-1 hour that she sneezed 3-4 times then stopped. Before getting sick she also sneezed sometimes but then stopped after being treated with antibiotics. During the day I don't see watery discharge in her nostril, and when she perches on my shoulder I do not hear any strange sound.

Do I really need to give her more antibiotics at this point or just provide care for more couple of days to see if it stops? I usually spray iodine in the room where I put her cage, can it be that the tiny drops of liquid make her irritate? I am giving her water with crushed fresh garlic a time a day and ACV in drinking water, is there anything I can give her to help her recover better?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> You need to google things and read up on things yourself, so you aren't waiting for a vet to tell you what to do. That is a pretty safe wormer. And you don't worm once. You always worm twice. The first worming gets worms but not the eggs. The second will get the worms which have hatched from those eggs. I would worm again with that. Let us know if you get worms.


Thank you Jay3. The birds have been on lots of different meds and their health condition was complicated so I've been a bit worried about the safety and messing up with symptoms, and some wormer instructions also say that it can be given once or twice so I've been postponing. 

I will give her the wormer tomorrow and let you know the results.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You need to understand the roundworm cycle. Dewormers kill the worms, not the eggs. Later on the eggs hatch and you have more worms. I don't care what the wormer says. You need to worm again after the eggs hatch, but before they start laying eggs. Or you will never clear them up. Some wormers will tell you to worm once a month. That is because they are out flying and eating off the ground and picking up more eggs. So they say to worm once a month to keep the worms numbers lower. To get the eggs that will hatch after you have wormed, you need to worm again.
It's true that you don't want to deworm an unwell bird, as it can be rough on their system. But when you know there are worms, then you do.


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## Sydneylofts1* (Dec 11, 2017)

Howl
I can say that you need to worm once then 21 days later worm again this is the cycle from worm to egg to worm however the young worm cannot produce eggs as it is to young.
Also try some silverbeet or spinach washed with a sprinkle of salt. Hope this helps


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you Sydneylofts1 and Jay3 for the info. I did not know kale and spinach can also help with worms.

I gave the birds wormer 12 hours ago, have not seen worms so far.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kale and spinach won't get rid of worms. I think you misunderstood. They are just good for them.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Kale and spinach won't get rid of worms. I think you misunderstood. They are just good for them.


Thanks for clarifying, I thought Sydneylofts1 meant that the veggies keep number of worms low like some people said about garlic and would read more about that later.

I gave the birds pyrantel pamoate not kale and spinach, though, and after a day have not seen worms.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you gave them the right dose, then if they had worms, you should have seen worms.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I followed the instruction in this thread and gave each of them around 2 mg pyrantel pamoate:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/wh...rantel-pamoate-for-an-adult-pigeon-77705.html


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

*Checking crop content by looking through skin*

Hi Jay3. I tried to check if her crop has some blockage using the instruction in this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=142727&postcount=13

What I saw right above the keel bone looks like fat, it has the yellow color of fat and covers the area of diameter around an inch. In the middle of it is something like a small hole/empty space below the skin (not that the skin has a hole). Pointing a flash light at that hole I did not see anything. The area is not bulging, the skin over the hole is flat. Does it mean the crop is empty?

The reason I am asking is that this afternoon she was gorging on food and at one point I saw something like a sagging bag when she was bowing down to peck, but the bag disappeared when later she straightened her neck. One of her eyelid was slightly red but become white again later. She pooped less than I expected afterwards and some hours later when I checked it seems to me her crop was hard, but flat not lumpy or bulging. Around 3-4 hours later I did the skin check above. 
Actually for the last 2 days her poops were improving, afternoon droppings were similar to when she was healthy, only in the morning they were a bit wet and slightly smaller. This afternoon was against the trend.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howl, you need to relax a bit. If she is having enough droppings, then the crop is emptying. You are not going to find a blockage that way. If you think the crop is a bit slow, feed her some warmed applesauce mixed with a bit of warm water. Applesauce will usually help things to pass through. How is the bird acting?


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Howl, you need to relax a bit. If she is having enough droppings, then the crop is emptying. You are not going to find a blockage that way. If you think the crop is a bit slow, feed her some warmed applesauce mixed with a bit of warm water. Applesauce will usually help things to pass through. How is the bird acting?


Early this morning (before your post) I checked her crop again and it was soft and there were some big droppings in the cage, so things did go through. But you are right, I think I've been too jumpy.

She was active this morning and droppings were normal. In the afternoon she slept more and ate less.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Give her time.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3, do you know if polyvisol (with iron) is good for pigeons, and at what dosage?
Also if I am to give vitamin C on its own, how much should I give each bird? Many thanks.

EDIT: please dont bother with my question on polyvisol, the amount of iron is toxic.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why do you want to give vitamin C on it's own? Can you not get a bird vitamin mix?
Human vitamins aren't good for them as they have different requirements. You can do more harm than good.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I have multivitamin that contains A, B and D vitamins but not C, and it's made for all kind of farm animals not only birds so at first I thought human vitamin is better. But on further reading it looks like human vitamins and supplementary food usually contain high level of iron, zinc, magnesium etc, so like you said it can do more harm than good. I will order vitamins made for birds from the US for them but at this moment I don't have them at hand.

Also, all the vets I talked to advised me not to use animal probiotics and use human ones instead, but they contain zinc and magnesium too. I am trying to calculate the safe amount I can give them. For example 1 water soluble portion of Pediakid Probiotics 10M contains 10 billion CFU of bacteria and 3mg Zinc, so if I give each bird 1% of the portion that would be 100 million CFU of bacteria and 0.03 mg of Zinc, lower than many supplementary doses of minerals for birds. Do you think it's safe, or I should stop giving them human probiotics altogether?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Human probiotic have been used in small doses, but can you get yogurt with probiotics and without the sugar? That works well by putting a small amount in the front of their beak and letting them swallow.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I have not yet found sugar-free yogurt that contain probiotics in my place. In the beginning I used Enterogermina, that's what my vets recommended, and its bacteria strain is resistant to many antibiotics. But then I noticed the ingredients also include magnesium stearate.


By the way, when I searched this forum for a recommended probiotics, I saw some people including you mentioned "Probios". Are you talking about this one:
https://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/medications/probiotics/670-pro-bios-1lb


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. That one would be fine.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you. Because there's another product also called Probios by Chr Hansen, I wanted to be sure I do not buy the wrong one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There are many different brands people use. Not just one is good.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

I am buying some common medicines and supplements for my birds. Do I need to pay attention to the brand or all products sold on Jedds, Foy, Siegel etc are good providing that medicines come as tablets?

In particular, for Doxycycline, I found 2 products:
1) DOXYBIRD by Medpet containing 7.5mg Doxycycline/tab 
2) Doxyvet-P by Vetafarm containing 25mg Doxycycline Hydrochloride/tab

Do you prefer one over the other or they are more or less the same? Should I also buy Doxy-T on Siegel Pigeon?

For Amoxicillin, there are 10 mg tablets sold on Siegel and Foy but none of them have info on the producers. Are they good, or do you buy amoxicillin from another place?

Many thanks in advance.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Take your time in buying antibiotics and things like that. Research them and find out what the dosage is for a pigeon. Then you have a better idea of what you are buying. 
Doxy for instance is usually from 10 to 50 mg once daily, depending on the birds weight. So the 25 mg would be easier. Tablets can also be split if you need a smaller dose. 
I don't like Siegels so I don't order from them. They are awful to deal with and don't always send good products.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Jay3 said:


> Take your time in buying antibiotics and things like that. Research them and find out what the dosage is for a pigeon. Then you have a better idea of what you are buying.
> Doxy for instance is usually from 10 to 50 mg once daily, depending on the birds weight. So the 25 mg would be easier. Tablets can also be split if you need a smaller dose.
> I don't like Siegels so I don't order from them. They are awful to deal with and don't always send good products.


Thank you Jay3. I have an idea about the dosage based on discussions on this forum, it's actually the producers that I haven't got much info, for example most members of this forum seem to like buying from Medpet while Vetafarm, the one with the better tab size, is rarely mentioned, so I was wondering if people are not satisfied with their med quality.

Thanks a lot for warning me about Siegel also.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

People buy from what they are familiar with, or what someone they know is familiar with. Either brand is fine.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Jay3. As I said in the other thread she laid eggs and had some days of runny droppings but seems to be getting a bit better, today most droppings are firm, color is more brownish than when she was healthy. 

However whenever she got angry with me and coo, her voice would sound normally at first but halfway through her voice stopped and then she made some weird sound like coughing or clearing her throat. Also sometimes I heard her sneezing. Do you think it's respiratory infection or can be something else like yeast etc.? Is it necessary to give her medicines now or I should give her some more time? 

She is spending lots of time in her nest with the eggs but goes out a couple of times a day flying a bit and when she is out, she does not look tired. When she stands on my shoulder I don't hear strange noise of her breathing, and she does not breath with open beak.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You cannot keep giving them meds unless really necessary. It will cause them more problems, which then need to be treated. She sounds as though she is doing better. Stop looking for things. Give her time to regain strength. Put a bit of ACV in the water, give vitamins a couple times a week and probiotics once a week.


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## Howl (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you for assuring me. It's said that respiratory infection in birds are usually much more serious than in mammals so I was worried she would not recover on her own.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't know that she has a respiratory infection. Watch her and if you see more symptoms then go from there.


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