# New to Pigeon Genetics?



## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

If you are new to pigeon genetics and want to learn about pigeon genetics, do NOT get confused by pigeons having so-called 3 base colors. Pigeons are able to produce at least 3 pigments (red, black, and brown) in their feathers but that does not mean they have 3 base colors. Base means standard and there can only be one standard in genetics for every species. We simply pick a standard phenotype and test the rest of the mutations to that phenotype and that phenotype is the blue bar in pigeon genetics. Just because Ash-red and Brown are sex-linked genes and assumed to be alleles based on breeding results, does NOT mean they are the base colors. That’s because we cannot have 3 standards to test the rest of the mutants. Ash-red and brown are mutations. Therefore, they cannot be considered as base or standard. 

Don’t believe to the statement that says “pigeons must be either blue, brown, and ash-red”. Because we can say the same thing about any other locus. At the indigo locus for instance, there is no known alleles. So I can say: every pigeon can either be blue or indigo. There are two alleles at the recessive red locus: Recessive red, and ember. So, I can say: every pigeon must either be blue, recessive red, or ember. Does that mean indigo and recessive red are also base colors? NO…

If we say there are 3 base colors, with that logic we can also say pigeons have 4 BASE patterns only because our standard “bar” is allelic to rest of the patterns. Each pigeon must have either barless, bar, check or T-check pattern even if epistatic genes like spread, recessive red, recessive white, and albino conceals the pattern when they are present in the genotype. BUT, that does not mean there are 4 BASE PATTERNS in pigeons. The only base is the bar. Rest of them are alleles of the bar pattern, but they are not BASE patterns. There can only be one base for us to compare the rest of the mutants. Therefore, any pattern other than the bar is considered to be mutations.

The other confusion is about the “blue gene”. There is no such thing as the blue gene. Blue is the phenotype produced by not only one gene located at the b-locus where ash-red and brown are assumed to be located. Every wild-type gene at every locus is represented by a + sign. Otherwise, we will have to call the wild-type gene at indigo locus also the “blue gene”, or called the wild-type gene at the recessive red locus also the “blue gene”. Well, how many so-called blue genes are there? Think of all the mutations that effect the color and the pattern like indigo, recessive red, spread, ash-red, brown, recessive white, dominant opal, grizzle, almond series, dilute, reduced, and the list goes on… at the location of these genes ALL of them must have wild-type genes (no mutants) for us to be able to see that blue bar phenotype. What that means is, in order to get a blue phenotype, there are about 25 genes needed, NOT JUST ONE. Therefore, the wild-type gene at the b-locus is not solely responsible to make that bird a blue bird….just remember every wild-type gene is represented with a + sign, and we are not allowed to give genotypic names to our wild-type genes. Therefore, there is no blue gene in pigeon genetics. There is a blue phenotype, but that phenotype is produced by about 25 genes working together. This number will go up as we get new mutations….


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Please provide us with your reference material where you got your information.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*My references*

http://mumtazticloft.com/Bibliography.pdf


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you!


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I see that Franc Mosca's website is the only you have on your bibliography ( I don't have access to any of the older hard-copy materials in pigeon genetics, only Axel Sell german book, "Vererbung bei Tauben".)

I would like to cite Huntley's website as a reference that says the exactly what Frank Mosca says, but he uses the terminology the 3 base colors and not the three base pigments. As I stated before, this is a purely intellectual distinction. They say exactly the same thing (pigments are seen as colors). I believe Huntley was an avid corresponder with Dr Hollander, and as credible a source as Frank Mosca (who is a close contact of mine as well).

I concede (as before) that it is more correct to call them pigments, but saying that there are 3 base pigments in pigeons is the same as it is to say 3 base colors.



amumtaz said:


> If you are new to pigeon genetics and want to learn about pigeon genetics, do NOT get confused by pigeons having so-called 3 base colors. Pigeons are able to produce at least 3 pigments (red, black, and brown) in their feathers but that does not mean they have 3 base colors. Base means standard and there can only be one standard in genetics for every species.


Who decided that 'base' means standard? Base means the color of the pigment that the other mutations (at other loci) are still free to build upon and change or inhibit or intensify or dilute. 'Base' is just a name, a word we understand differently from how you understand it.



amumtaz said:


> That’s because we cannot have 3 standards to test the rest of the mutants. Ash-red and brown are mutations. Therefore, they cannot be considered as base or standard.


No one asked that they be considered a standard, I always try to make it clear that ash-red is not wild-type. Nor did I ever ask that other mutations are tested against the alleles at the color locus. Only mutations at the color locus can be tested against one another (and against wild-type - which is blue, when the color locus is being discussed)



amumtaz said:


> Don’t believe to the statement that says “pigeons must be either blue, brown, and ash-red”. Because we can say the same thing about any other locus.


Of course we can say the same thing about any other locus, no-one saud we cannot. Just as a bird is either ash,blue (WT) or brown, it is either indigo or not-indigo (WT).



amumtaz said:


> If we say there are 3 base colors, with that logic we can also say pigeons have 4 BASE patterns only because our standard “bar” is allelic to rest of the patterns. Each pigeon must have either barless, bar, check or T-check pattern even if epistatic genes like spread, recessive red, recessive white, and albino conceals the pattern when they are present in the genotype. BUT, that does not mean there are 4 BASE PATTERNS in pigeons.


We say that there are 4 pattern phenotypes, they are wild-type (bar), barless, check and T-pattern. Similarly we can say there are 3 colors (3 phenotypes caused by mutations at the color locus from wild-type) - wild-type (which we call blue - even though they are the same thing - when NO mutation is involved), ash-red and brown.



amumtaz said:


> The other confusion is about the “blue gene”. There is no such thing as the blue gene.


...


amumtaz said:


> Just remember every wild-type gene is represented with a + sign, and we are not allowed to give genotypic names to our wild-type genes.


Completely right, there is no blue gene, but there is a symbol used to denote the 'un-mutated' state of the DNA at the color locus. B^+ or just + if you like. (B^A / B^+ / b). We do not give genotypic names to all wild-type '+'es, only a select few like bar and blue (which everybody inderstands - is wild-type).



amumtaz said:


> Well, how many so-called blue genes are there? Think of all the mutations that effect the color and the pattern like indigo, recessive red, spread, ash-red, brown, recessive white, dominant opal, grizzle, almond series, dilute, reduced, and the list goes on… at the location of these genes ALL of them must have wild-type genes (no mutants) for us to be able to see that blue bar phenotype. What that means is, in order to get a blue phenotype, there are about 25 genes needed, NOT JUST ONE.


You say that the wild type phenotype needs about 25 genes? I am sure the pigeon genome has tens of thousands if not millions of loci, not just the 25 humans have named and have seen mutations at. Wild-type phenotype needs no-one-knows-how-many genes, not just one, _and not just 25_. 

In closing, we should rather talk about the alleles at he color locus and leave this discussion behind us. I will not be posting on this subject again, as I feel that it is pointless to repeat both sides endlessly without resolution, we should all 'talk' the way we want to talk, as long as we all get to the same answer when asked a question regarding breeding results and genetics.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Rudolph,

This is the second time you brought up names of people into a discussion, but you still refuse to contact them and ask their opinions. If you wont use them as references, why bring their names up in the first place? In addition, it would be nice to spell Frank's name with a "k" and with a "c". Copy and paste what I have posted to Frank, Ron, Dick, and see what they will say... Frank is biologist by training and he is too smart to claim pigeons have 3 so-called base colors. I haven't seen any place in Ron's website where he says anything about base colors either.

Here is a link for you from Frank Mosca's website where he explains the difference between the pigment and the color...While you are at this link, read the last paragraph (ADDENDUM) as well. http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/brown.html

Who decided base means standard? if you cant find any of the references I listed, pick up a high school biology book and read it. When you say there are 3 base colors you are insinuating that they are the standard. Why else would you use the word BASE? 

I said wild-type phenotype needs about 25 genes just to make the feathers of the bird appear as the blue bar (our standard phenotype). I never claimed that's the entire genome...

In closing, this thread was not started for you, so there is no reason for you to defend yourself or advice me to leave the discussion. If you don't want to post again, it is your choice...


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## tipllers rule (Aug 2, 2010)

luv this


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Tipplers rule - It is good having debate I agree. Its a shame the rest of it got deleted by a moderator.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Rudolph,
> 
> This is the second time you brought up names of people into a discussion, but you still refuse to contact them and ask their opinions. If you wont use them as references, why bring their names up in the first place? In addition, it would be nice to spell Frank's name with a "k" and with a "c". Copy and paste what I have posted to Frank, Ron, Dick, and see what they will say... Frank is biologist by training and he is too smart to claim pigeons have 3 so-called base colors. I haven't seen any place in Ron's website where he says anything about base colors either.
> 
> ...


I disagree - I cannot speak for Rudolph but When using the word "Base" all I mean is that one of the three pigments will always be underneath whatever the bird is showing, Rec white or rec red will hide these base colours/pigments but they will still be there in the genotype. Saying the word base is different to saying they are all wildtype colours which I do not think you will hear anyone with any knowledge on genetics try and claim.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

Evan,

Let me try to explain how genes work together differently. In order to make a bird an ash-red phenotype, all that pigeon needs is one copy of the ash-red gene. In order to make a bird a brown bird, we need two copies of the brown gene for the cock birds and only one copy of the brown gene for the hens. I think you understand the concept up to this point.

I think your confusion comes from the thought that we only need one gene for a pigeon to show itself as a blue phenotype. That is not true at all. Because, all the genes affecting the color of the bird in every chromosome and in every locus must be WILD-TYPE for a bird to show the wild-type phenotype. If you break or change any of those wild-type genes you can no longer have a wild-type phenotype. In other words, with your thinking what you are saying is if the b-locus is not coding for ash-red or brown, it must be blue. Well, not really!!! The wild-type gene on the b-locus alone cannot make any bird a blue bird. What if the indigo locus is not wild-type and it is mutated? Then this bird will be indigo. What if the almond locus is mutated? Can we still have a blue bird? NO. So, we need about 25 genes to code for wild-type for us to be able to see that blue phenotype. 

Makes sense?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Tipplers rule - It is good having debate I agree. Its a shame the rest of it got deleted by a moderator.


The posts that were deleted had little to do with the subject of this thread. Please stop trying to agitate the situation.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> Let me try to explain how genes work together differently. In order to make a bird an ash-red phenotype, all that pigeon needs is one copy of the ash-red gene. In order to make a bird a brown bird, we need two copies of the brown gene for the cock birds and only one copy of the brown gene for the hens. I think you understand the concept up to this point.
> 
> ...


Sorry mate but you have misunderstood me again.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, a true wildtype bird has no mutations "switched on". As BLUE yes, there is B+. But blue is not the only thing that goes into the wildtype expression. That's where all the other symbols with +'s come in.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

We understand what you are saying, it's just a difference in terminology. When we say a bird is blue based or ash-red based or whatever we simply mean that's what they are regardless of the other color modifiers that may change the expression from being a typical blue or ash-red color.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> We understand what you are saying, it's just a difference in terminology. When we say a bird is blue based or ash-red based or whatever we simply mean that's what they are regardless of the other color modifiers that may change the expression from being a typical blue or ash-red color.


Hey Becky, I think its going to have to be a case of agree to disagree. But once again, Summed up well!!


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

The choices are red-black-brown
blue is black without spread (ignoring other "color modifiers").
Since black is the default you don't have to say "black based", and with the spread gene it would not make sense anyway.

So the choices are not 100% synonymous with the alleles on the b-locus.
That would be the problem to communicate to beginners of pigeon genetics, hence the spirit in the discussion.


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