# Light check, dark check, T pattern



## mncanary

I have been gaining information (slowly, sometimes painfully) on pigeon genetics. One of the big hurdles for me is the use of many terms to mean the same thing.

I'm wondering if 'check' and 'T pattern' are the same thing, genetically. I see light checks, medium checks, dark checks---is T pattern just a very dark check or is there more to it?

And, if T pattern is separate, how to you tell that from a dark check?

Thanks!

Dave


----------



## MaryOfExeter

No, t-pattern (also called velvet, dark check, black-winged blues or blue tailed blacks) is separate. It is the most dominant. Next in line is heavy check, medium (normal) check, light check, bar, and barless. Some t-patterns are not very dark and may look like heavy checks. So it can be confusing sometimes.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Becky, A question that has come to mind after reading your post - How do I put this....

Light check, Medium check and dark check - Are they actually seperate alleles or is it because Check varies in expression that the 3 types of check have been given Phenotype names.

For example If you had a pair of birds, Both **** for check and the check was what we be considered Dark check, Could these birds produce a light check?


----------



## MaryOfExeter

I am not sure if it's just a variation of one allele or if they are separate alleles. I have heard that they are separate, in which heavy check is most dominant, then medium, and light. Light is not to be confused with sooty bars.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

light check is different to sooty your right. I always understood that they were all one allele with different variations - hence my question, This is just what I understood and is not neccesarily correct, Might do some research.


----------



## Print Tippler

Well isn't there really more than 3 expressions of checks? Can you post pictures of each? I feel there is more.


----------



## Henk69

They are all separate alleles
C^t velvet, T-pattern
C^d dark check
C normal check
C^l light check
C+ bar
c barless

dark check and light check can be neglected though, to simplify things.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Henk69 said:


> They are all separate alleles
> C^t velvet, T-pattern
> C^d dark check
> C normal check
> C^l light check
> C+ bar
> c barless
> 
> dark check and light check can be neglected though, to simplify things.


Thanks Henk, I tend to leave them out as you say, I always thought the 3 checks were one allele with different expressions, Learn something every day. 



Print Tippler said:


> Well isn't there really more than 3 expressions of checks? Can you post pictures of each? I feel there is more.


Check varys a lot yes, I guess if you named every different expression of pigeon colours and patterns there would be no end to it. 

6 Base patterns is enough for my wee brain.


----------



## mncanary

So---does the T pattern have some other feather expression or pattern, elsewhere on the pigeon, that would indicate this is actually T pattern? Is there some other way to determine the difference between dark check and T pattern besides looking at the wing shield and taking a good guess?

Thanks to all for the answers,

Dave


----------



## Henk69

The darker the check or wing pattern, the darker the body color of the pigeon.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Each allele can vary. No two checks are exactly the same and I guess with three different check alleles, that leaves space for a ton of variation. T-patterns can vary also, from a pure black shield to large "T"s. The addition of darkening modifiers and such can really change how the birds look.

Keep in mind t-pattern and heavy checks can both be called dark check. I call them DC's on the race sheet to make it easier (moreso when they are also pied, which takes up more of the allowed characters). But in my personal records I may say velvet. So that can be confusing. But the phenotype is usually pretty similar. A lot of black, little blue. That is why I choose to call the darker checks, "heavy checks", to make it a little more clear.

Here's some t-patterns
http://www.speedpigeon.com/0812_baby_racing_pigeon_3month_large.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/pigeon_bluetpattern.jpg
http://regisland.canalblog.com/images/Racing_Pigeon_Dark_Check.jpg
http://www.articles.racing-pigeon-post.org/images/Ronald-06-1089936-500.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/Grizzland/colors/05tbpsq.jpg

Dark/heavy checks
http://0.tqn.com/d/healing/1/7/j/O/gtotem_pigeon.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/Grizzland/colors/03dcsq.jpg


To me, this would be a medium check
http://r18.imgfast.net/users/1813/19/34/16/album/nuremb10.jpg
That has other things going on, but just pay attention to the amount of checks.
http://www.westerncapepigeonracing.co.za/images/ewald/4.jpg
That one is more towards light check than heavy check.
http://www.ricksstrangeworld.com/blue_check.jpg

And this would be a light check
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/Grizzland/colors/02bcsq.jpg


This is a sooty blue bar. Makes false checks on barred birds. But genetically it is bar.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/Grizzland/colors/04sltsq.jpg


----------



## MaryOfExeter

But in the end, I either call them checks or dark checks or velvets/t-patterns. I may call a bird a light check if it only has a few checks and doesn't look like your typical sooty. I don't really bother with trying to name all the variations.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

mncanary said:


> So---does the T pattern have some other feather expression or pattern, elsewhere on the pigeon, that would indicate this is actually T pattern? Is there some other way to determine the difference between dark check and T pattern besides looking at the wing shield and taking a good guess?
> 
> Thanks to all for the answers,
> 
> Dave


Short answer - No

With check it comes down to guessing or breeding tests, And even then its hard to be sure what you are dealing with

The third photo in dark heavy checks could be T pattern which illustrates how hard it is to tell them apart, Just my opinion.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

That was my fault for accidentally pasting it in the wrong spot. Too many links at once, haha. I will move it. It is most definitely a t-pattern as the shield is almost black.


----------



## mncanary

It is reassuring to know that T-pattern and Check are confusing even to experienced pigoneers. I'll calm down about trying to determine exactly what is what with these patterns! Thanks to everyone for their work and the good answers,
Dave


----------



## Print Tippler

Is this a heavy or just a medium, its smokey and dirty so the smokey kinda makes it look darker


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Taking smoky into account I would say Dark/Heavy check. But with patterns there is some guessing involved so I could easily be wrong. I have a serbian here that is similar and I am still unsure exactly what it is. Tending towards T pattern, Might put a pic on later for reference.


----------



## Print Tippler

o well i know it is a check, just was wondering if was a heavy or medium. Is it really that hard to distinguish a t pattern? Seems pretty easy to me... Mine T's are a dark T i guess, very easy to tell









heres a dark T pattern, its also a dirty(i believe)


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Here is the serbian high flyer I believe is a T check that is not fully covered with black, Im not sure if you know but T Pattern comes from the fact that T pattern birds have little light grey t's on each feather on the shield, I think they must have been select bred to be dark like velvet.

The photo shows what I believe is a traditional T check as i Can see T's on the shield

It appears to have dirty also and COULD be a heavy check but wanted to use as an example of the T's on the shield as per the name " T Pattern"


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Print Tippler said:


> o well i know it is a check, just was wondering if was a heavy or medium. Is it really that hard to distinguish a t pattern? Seems pretty easy to me... Mine T's are a dark T i guess, very easy to tell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> heres a dark T pattern, its also a dirty(i believe)


With birds like the one in the pic it is wasy to distinguish but its not always that simple with patterns, As Becky pointed out T's can be mistaken for heavy, Lights can be mistaken for sooty. A birds genotype can not always be identified by its phenotype


----------



## Print Tippler

it looks like a t to me.


----------



## MaryOfExeter

Looks like a T-pattern to me. Logan, I'd say yours was heavy check.


----------



## loftkeeper

On T Patterns Is The Feathers Lighter Colored On The Edges Of The Feather


----------



## NZ Pigeon

loftkeeper said:


> On T Patterns Is The Feathers Lighter Colored On The Edges Of The Feather


A true T pattern should be lighter down the centre of the feather and then slightly on the tips as you have mentioned, this causes the T's on the wing shield.

These days a lot of T patterns, Wild and domestic are completely Black on the shield but are still the same allele as the traditionally T patterns.


----------



## rudolph.est

I usually also stick to four alleles, T-pattern, Check, Bar and barless.

I try to split up the expression as follows:
T-Pattern - Every feather has a thin T of light color on the outer edge and sometimes the vein to velvet (solid pattern wing - no light T). These birds often have very dark heads and show checking on the back and thighs.
Check - Every feather has one or two distinct dark spots on either side of the vein. These birds rarely have very dark heads, and never show check on the thighs.
Bar - Two bars (as wild type) can be modified to make the bars wider / thinner, the proximal bar is sometimes incomplete, a [partial] third bar is sometimes present.
Barless - no spread areas on the wing shield.

Just to add to the confusion, check birds split for bar also look different from pure check birds. 

Sometimes what is called light check, is nothing but check split for blue. Axel Sell states this in his book on pigeon genetics, and breeding tests in my loft confirm. He does not state that more than the 4 alleles exist.

Also T-pattern split for check (dark check), looks different from homozygous T-pattern (velvet).

There is much variation in the expression of the checks and T-patterns though. So they are difficult to discern.

I think that T-pattern and check are always distinguishable, normal check never has the two spots on the feathers so large as to touch in the middle of the feather, while T-pattern always has that characteristic.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> I usually also stick to four alleles, T-pattern, Check, Bar and barless.
> 
> I try to split up the expression as follows:
> T-Pattern - Every feather has a thin T of light color on the outer edge and sometimes the vein to velvet (solid pattern wing - no light T). These birds often have very dark heads and show checking on the back and thighs.
> Check - Every feather has one or two distinct dark spots on either side of the vein. These birds rarely have very dark heads, and never show check on the thighs.
> Bar - Two bars (as wild type) can be modified to make the bars wider / thinner, the proximal bar is sometimes incomplete, a [partial] third bar is sometimes present.
> Barless - no spread areas on the wing shield.
> 
> Just to add to the confusion, check birds split for bar also look different from pure check birds.
> 
> Sometimes what is called light check, is nothing but check split for blue. Axel Sell states this in his book on pigeon genetics, and breeding tests in my loft confirm. He does not state that more than the 4 alleles exist.
> 
> Also T-pattern split for check (dark check), looks different from homozygous T-pattern (velvet).
> 
> There is much variation in the expression of the checks and T-patterns though. So they are difficult to discern.
> 
> I think that T-pattern and check are always distinguishable, normal check never has the two spots on the feathers so large as to touch in the middle of the feather, while T-pattern always has that characteristic.


Interesting, it appears there are most defenitly 7 alleles as per the symbols list

CT - T-pattern Check
CD - Dark Checker
C - Checker
CL - Light Checker
C+ - Normal Wild Type pattern or Barred
c - barless

So are you saying that a CL Split for C+ would appear different to a CL, Does that mean a C split for CL would be different to a pure CL? And a CT Split for CL does that appear the same as a CD? 

Thanks
Evan


----------



## jabadao

rudolph.est said:


> I usually also stick to four alleles, T-pattern, Check, Bar and barless.
> 
> I try to split up the expression as follows:
> T-Pattern - Every feather has a thin T of light color on the outer edge and sometimes the vein to velvet (solid pattern wing - no light T). These birds often have very dark heads and show checking on the back and thighs.
> Check - Every feather has one or two distinct dark spots on either side of the vein. These birds rarely have very dark heads, and never show check on the thighs.
> Bar - Two bars (as wild type) can be modified to make the bars wider / thinner, the proximal bar is sometimes incomplete, a [partial] third bar is sometimes present.
> Barless - no spread areas on the wing shield.
> 
> Just to add to the confusion, check birds split for bar also look different from pure check birds.
> 
> Sometimes what is called light check, is nothing but check split for blue. Axel Sell states this in his book on pigeon genetics, and breeding tests in my loft confirm. He does not state that more than the 4 alleles exist.
> 
> Also T-pattern split for check (dark check), looks different from homozygous T-pattern (velvet).
> 
> There is much variation in the expression of the checks and T-patterns though. So they are difficult to discern.
> 
> I think that T-pattern and check are always distinguishable, normal check never has the two spots on the feathers so large as to touch in the middle of the feather, while T-pattern always has that characteristic.



I agree with Rudolph,Black velvet is **** T-pattern,as this pigeon.










**** check is different as check split bar,check split bar is lighter.
To produce beautiful check,mated a check with a sooty bar.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

jabadao said:


> I agree with Rudolph,Black velvet is **** T-pattern,as this pigeon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **** check is different as check split bar,check split bar is lighter.
> To produce beautiful check,mated a check with a sooty bar.


I disagree that we can tell by a photo if a bird is **** or het for a particular pattern, I have seen birds a lot darker than this photo so this could be a het T pattern with dirty or smoky for all we know.

I understand what Rudolph is saying and it makes sense but identifying these differences is not as simple as looking at a photo, Also I still want someone to answer what would happen if a bird was check split for barless, Would it appear the same as a Bar or sooty bar?

Also is there any info in books or on the net supporting this theory?


----------



## jabadao

NZ Pigeon said:


> I disagree that we can tell by a photo if a bird is **** or het for a particular pattern, I have seen birds a lot darker than this photo so this could be a het T pattern with dirty or smoky for all we know.
> 
> I understand what Rudolph is saying and it makes sense but identifying these differences is not as simple as looking at a photo, Also I still want someone to answer what would happen if a bird was check split for barless, Would it appear the same as a Bar or sooty bar?
> 
> Also is there any info in books or on the net supporting this theory?


This bird is my bird. 
It's an **** T-Pattern,het smoky and no dirty.
Smoky T-Pattern is very different,here is a squab out my black velvet.(het T-Pattern,**** smoky,het dirty)


----------



## NZ Pigeon

jabadao said:


> This bird is my bird.
> It's an **** T-Pattern,het smoky and no dirty.
> Smoky T-Pattern is very different,here is a squab out my black velvet.(het T-Pattern,**** smoky,het dirty)


It a nice bird, Sorry I was not disagreeing with you, Just pointing out that pattern is very hard to distinguish from a picture.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

This bird is Het Ash red split blue,Het T pattern, Dirty. Also Split for dilute
Shows that a Het T pattern can be as " Dark " As a ****.

I am using this to put dilute into my race birds. This is my F1, He loft flies well. I have an F2 aswell, Ash Yellow T pattern, Nice wee hen but still some work to do before they look like racers again, Let alone being back to racing level.


----------



## rudolph.est

NZ Pigeon said:


> I understand what Rudolph is saying and it makes sense but identifying these differences is not as simple as looking at a photo, Also I still want someone to answer what would happen if a bird was check split for barless, Would it appear the same as a Bar or sooty bar?
> 
> Also is there any info in books or on the net supporting this theory?


Axel Sell's book specifies the theory that a Check/Bar split bird looks different from a check/check bird, and breeding tests in my loft so far agrees. Similarly T-pattern/bar _sometimes (but not always)_ looks different from T-Pattern/Check and T-Pattern/T-pattern. I do not know if barless split causes the same effects as bar split, and since I have no barless birds, I cannot test it myself (yet)!

For instance, Archangels are definitely T-pattern velvet. Breeding an archangel to a blue bar homer gave me T-pattern birds, but not velvet, they still have a clearly visible lighter distal edge and central zone. I have not been able to breed F2 yet, but when I do, I hope to prove a 1:2:1 ratio can be discerned.

It is important to note that I have thus far not been able to distinguish T-pattern/Check from T-pattern/T-pattern on a visual basis.



NZ Pigeon said:


> This bird is Het Ash red split blue,Het T pattern, Dirty. Also Split for dilute
> Shows that a Het T pattern can be as " Dark " As a ****.
> 
> I am using this to put dilute into my race birds. This is my F1, He loft flies well. I have an F2 aswell, Ash Yellow T pattern, Nice wee hen but still some work to do before they look like racers again, Let alone being back to racing level.


Is this bird split for bar or for check? If it is split for bar would be surprised, as none of my breeding tests so far have given me similar results. The dirty and Ash-red also helps to make this bird as 'velvet' as it is. Maybe the effect on blue, and without dirty would be different?

Obviously more breeding tests need to be done with combinations, but on blue%2


----------



## NZ Pigeon

He is split for check, The mother was a very light check. I now have him paired to a Bar and they produced another T pattern exactly the same as this guy and also a light yellow check which confirms he is T Check carrying light check. I will get you a photo today, Also the yellow didn't appear to pick up the dirty, I think you are probably right with regards to the blue side of things, I will update you with a pic If I get a nice blue T check that looks as good as him off my current pairing as then it would be a Blue T Check split bar, Het diute and if I can I will try get a dirty and a non dirty for comparison. Thanks


----------



## NZ Pigeon

Heres the hen I bred from the boy above, She is Ash Yellow, Tcheck split Bar. Non dirty. Throws a spanner in the works from what you have found in your lofts rudolph est. I still wonder if she would be this "Velvet" if she was blue based. I will keep you updated.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

another one


----------



## rudolph.est

NZ Pigeon said:


> Heres the hen I bred from the boy above, She is Ash Yellow, Tcheck split Bar. Non dirty. Throws a spanner in the works from what you have found in your lofts rudolph est. I still wonder if she would be this "Velvet" if she was blue based. I will keep you updated.


It sure does throw a spanner in the works where T-pattern is concerned. But I still think that the expression on Ash-red might differ from the expression on blue. I will mate a T-pattern homer to a barred one and see what I get. Though I know for a fact that I don't have any homozygous t-patterns in my loft, all are split for check, and only one is velvet like yours (and he's indigo, not ideal for breeding tests).

If the difference in phenotype is not related to the other alleles on the same chromosome, I think I'll have to do breeding tests to find what causes some T-patterns to be solid (velvet) and other's to have the visible T.


----------



## NZ Pigeon

rudolph.est said:


> It sure does throw a spanner in the works where T-pattern is concerned. But I still think that the expression on Ash-red might differ from the expression on blue. I will mate a T-pattern homer to a barred one and see what I get. Though I know for a fact that I don't have any homozygous t-patterns in my loft, all are split for check, and only one is velvet like yours (and he's indigo, not ideal for breeding tests).
> 
> If the difference in phenotype is not related to the other alleles on the same chromosome, I think I'll have to do breeding tests to find what causes some T-patterns to be solid (velvet) and other's to have the visible T.


I am also tending to think that it may be different on blue. I wonder if select breeding of the pattern can cause the expression to differ. So it depends on the line of T Check you have and maybe select breeding using the velvet you have could in time mean that any bird you have, Het or **** T pattern shows the velvet look. Just a thought, No scientific basis behind it.


----------

