# weak birds?



## chayi (May 1, 2010)

what do you do with weak birds, birds that looks like they dont have a future?
say you have two baby birds same age one with weak legs or if you compare with birds of the same age the feathering of others is more completed. so you still keep them do you band them do you train them or do you get rid of them?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

give them a chance to mature and see what happens, and try to find out why they are "weak"... consult a vet or look at symptoms to see what they may need... more calcium? vitamins? better feed for the parents..how is the parents health? do some reading about pigeon health and husbandtry and see if you can improve the youngster..stop breeding that pair if you keep getting young ones from them that are not up to par...fill in the gaps, humans can do alot to improve their health, they(pigeons) do not hold the keys to the cupboard.


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

I personally perservere with them.Ive lost count on the times ive looked at a young bird and thought hes not going to be any good and twelve months down the line hes come on and turned out to be a good pigeon.
Sometimes its hard to judge when they are so young.Remember it was you who paired them so dont they deserve a shot.
Sometimes its not the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog.These birds can surprise you its not always the birds good on the eye that end up winners.


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## soymi69 (Nov 12, 2007)

The problem on this is the owner. Let me explain when your pair lay their first egg most likely the pair will start to incubate right away so the first egg is already developing so by the time the second egg is hatch the first egg is couple of days into development. So the eggs will hatch in order they were layed, so the first born will get all the nutrients from both parents and by the time the second egg hatch the first born is already over a day old. That is why you have totally two different size babies. This is what I do to eliminate this problem as soon as the first egg is layed I remove the egg and replace it with fake eggs once the second egg is layed I put the first egg back and once the egg start to hatch its almost the same time and the babies will grow the same and healthy. You can also have the other baby foster by other pair with a baby with the same size. You can also give the young if it is big enough to swallow an ideall pills everyday, most important is to make sure that the young are getting enough food from the parents.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

chayi said:


> what do you do with weak birds, birds that looks like they dont have a future?
> say you have two baby birds same age one with weak legs or if you compare with birds of the same age the feathering of others is more completed. so you still keep them do you band them do you train them or do you get rid of them?


Some people remove them. some watch them and see how they develop. It the persons idea of how they select there breeding program and desire to maintain a rigid program. Weak birds are often stunted or a little slower to develop You know as you watch. but you should make sure breeders are healthy and ready for breeding Then young birds are better raised. and birds that feed 1 bird better then let them raise just 1 each round But that happens just every so often.


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## realtalk72 (Nov 7, 2009)

Take Them Out 100 Miles .....if They Make It Good....if Not .......


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

realtalk72 said:


> Take Them Out 100 Miles .....if They Make It Good....if Not .......


Sure glad I'm not one of your birds


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## pisces_eyes (Nov 11, 2008)

*egg safekeeping*



soymi69 said:


> The problem on this is the owner. Let me explain when your pair lay their first egg most likely the pair will start to incubate right away so the first egg is already developing so by the time the second egg is hatch the first egg is couple of days into development. So the eggs will hatch in order they were layed, so the first born will get all the nutrients from both parents and by the time the second egg hatch the first born is already over a day old. That is why you have totally two different size babies. This is what I do to eliminate this problem as soon as the first egg is layed *I remove the egg and replace it with fake eggs once the second egg is layed I put the first egg back and once the egg start to hatch its almost the same time and the babies will grow the same and healthy.* You can also have the other baby foster by other pair with a baby with the same size. You can also give the young if it is big enough to swallow an ideall pills everyday, most important is to make sure that the young are getting enough food from the parents.


hi! how long could the real egg removed and safely bring back without spoiling?

and where is the best place to keep it? i.e. container types.. etc.. thanks


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

realtalk72 said:


> Take Them Out 100 Miles .....if They Make It Good....if Not .......


This is why pigeon racing gets a bad name 
I'm glad I'm not one of your birds either


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

realtalk72 said:


> Take Them Out 100 Miles .....if They Make It Good....if Not .......


I bet your birds wish they could do the same with you


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pisces_eyes said:


> hi! how long could the real egg removed and safely bring back without spoiling?
> 
> and where is the best place to keep it? i.e. container types.. etc.. thanks


you can keep the egg in a cool place small end up and turn it twice a day one clockwise and then counter clockwise, up to five days.. I would even try one if it was a week old, nothing to lose but to see and check fertility in about 5 days after being warmed and brooded by the parent or foster birds.


in a case where the hen will sit the first egg, you can remove the real egg and put a fake under her untill she lays the second average 48 hours later..some lay sooner some bit later..


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

I been watching this bird for about 3 months it looks weak and puffed but it always eats and drinks very well i have it with all the other birds and it keeps to it self lays in the sun and sleeps. Today i deworm everyone in the water to see if it was worms. Last month i gave them tetracycline fot 7 days in the water every one is doing very good exept this one and i like this bird i want to see this bird grow strong its like a challenge just keep on trying to see what happens


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## Action (Oct 18, 2009)

*Seperate it?*

Maybe seperate it for a while? sometimes that does wonders.
Jack


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## Caden's Aviary (Jul 14, 2010)

pisces_eyes said:


> hi! how long could the real egg removed and safely bring back without spoiling?
> 
> and where is the best place to keep it? i.e. container types.. etc.. thanks


I have more experience with chickens then pigeons, but with chicken eggs they are not "activated" until the hen starts setting. If you get the egg early it can be kept for at least a few weeks. I have gotten chicken eggs for hatching through the mail a number of times with good results. But, once the hen sets and they get warm they have to stay that way or you will lose the chick.

Brian


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## bbcdon (Oct 16, 2007)

realtalk72, is your name Buck?


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

realtalk72 said:


> Take Them Out 100 Miles .....if They Make It Good....if Not .......


I was expecting this answer by someone and also was expecting the responses he got afterwards as well


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Weak birds cull themselves. And there is such thing as a "weak" bird whether they be health related (not disease, but more like genetic weakness such as having weak immunity) or performance wise (like they can't out fly a hawk or can't navigate). Nature practices natural selection which improves the breed.


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## pisces_eyes (Nov 11, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> you can keep the egg in a cool place small end up and turn it twice a day one clockwise and then counter clockwise, up to five days.. I would even try one if it was a week old, nothing to lose but to see and check fertility in about 5 days after being warmed and brooded by the parent or foster birds.
> 
> 
> in a case where the hen will sit the first egg, you can remove the real egg and put a fake under her untill she lays the second average 48 hours later..some lay sooner some bit later..


Thanks.


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## pisces_eyes (Nov 11, 2008)

Caden's Aviary said:


> I have more experience with chickens then pigeons, but with chicken eggs they are not "activated" until the hen starts setting. If you get the egg early it can be kept for at least a few weeks. I have gotten chicken eggs for hatching through the mail a number of times with good results. But, once the hen sets and they get warm they have to stay that way or you will lose the chick.
> 
> Brian


Thanks.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

RodSD said:


> Weak birds cull themselves. And there is such thing as a "weak" bird whether they be health related (not disease, but more like genetic weakness such as having weak immunity) or performance wise (like they can't out fly a hawk or can't navigate). Nature practices natural selection which improves the breed.


That's all fine and I understand that, and that's Mother Nature doing her work.
BUT, when we breed these birds in captivity, they are in OUR care and depend on us to take care of them. So if the bird is not up to parr, I don't think it's right to just throw him out 
But I guess the reality of this is - this is the difference between people that race, and people that just have pigeons as pets (like me).


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Msfreebird,

I totally understand your point of view. We breed dogs for instance that may not able to survive in the wild, but will still breed it anyhow because they have certain charm or characteristics that we like. And ,yes, we become the responsible individual when we domesticate animals. Because I release my birds, I want my birds to have at least the ability to survive in the wild so nature acts on them as well. They become part of nature's natural selection. I did try to help some of my weaker birds to survive whether by having selective care, for example, but in the end nature took them. To be honest with you, I sometimes hate natural selection. It takes my most favorite birds.


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

Sad. In the end after trying out all posible solutions took him to the vet and told me he could not do anything for the bird two days later bird was dead in the loft. At least im glad he died on his own. But its sad that vets really cant do anything for birds well at least here. What do vets do state side for birds?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Did the vet say what was wrong with him?


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

I wish we could discuss natural selection and genetics but this board is closed to those opinions, a case in point is my beloved lab "purebred yellow lab" I had for 15 years that had to be put down because his hips got very bad and finally couldn't walk any more, not the dogs fault he got dealt a crappy load of bad genes, I'm sure everything was done right by this dog x-rays and all that still in the end the bad genes took their toll and it was necessary to stop the dogs pain, hardest thing I've ever had to do with my faithful friend! I won't mention the c word but it is absolutely necessary to improve any breed of animal IMHO!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> I wish we could discuss natural selection and genetics but this board is closed to those opinions, a case in point is my beloved lab "purebred yellow lab" I had for 15 years that had to be put down because his hips got very bad and finally couldn't walk any more, not the dogs fault he got dealt a crappy load of bad genes, I'm sure everything was done right by this dog x-rays and all that still in the end the bad genes took their toll and it was necessary to stop the dogs pain, hardest thing I've ever had to do with my faithful friend! I won't mention the c word but it is absolutely necessary to improve any breed of animal IMHO!


When breeding, dogs that are not up to par can be sold cheaply, or given away. They do not have to be culled, if by that word you mean killed. That is just ridiculous.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Lots of dogs may have genetic defects. We breed them for our purpose and not necessarily to their own survival in the wild. But they do fine because we take care of them. And there is less predator that might kill them like lion or something unlike our pigeons where they risk their lives against hawks and falcons every time they fly.

I still remember when I went to an animal shelter and I saw this woman crying in the parking lot holding a leash and a dog carrier. I knew what that meant. But they give them chemicals that lessens their pain, goes to sleep and not know that is the last time they will open their eyes. It will be a painless death.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> I wish we could discuss natural selection and genetics but this board is closed to those opinions, a case in point is my beloved lab "purebred yellow lab" I had for 15 years that had to be put down because his hips got very bad and finally couldn't walk any more, not the dogs fault he got dealt a crappy load of bad genes, I'm sure everything was done right by this dog x-rays and all that still in the end the bad genes took their toll and it was necessary to stop the dogs pain, hardest thing I've ever had to do with my faithful friend! I won't mention the c word but it is absolutely necessary to improve any breed of animal IMHO!


It's always painful when we loose our "best friends".
15 years is longer than the average Labs life expectancy! So IMHO he did remarkably well to live that long 
A dog either has Hip Dysplasia (mild to severe) or it doesn't. It doesn't "get worse" as they grow older. They can, however, get arthritis or spondylosis - and THAT can get progressively worse as they grow older.
The only way to improve a breed is to stop all this "back yard" breeding and leave it to experienced, ethical and knowledgeable breeders that KNOW the genetic makeup of their breeding stock - GENERATIONS BACK.
Destroying a "defective" animal is NOT how you improve the breed. Spaying or neutering IS! If a defect shows up in a puppy, an ETHICAL breeder will remove (retire) the sire or dam from the breeding program.
"Unethical" and "backyard" breeders will just destroy the defective offspring (hide the evidence) and keep on breeding the parents  WRONG! This does not improve the breed!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> It's always painful when we loose our "best friends".
> 15 years is longer than the average Labs life expectancy! So IMHO he did remarkably well to live that long
> A dog either has Hip Dysplasia (mild to severe) or it doesn't. It doesn't "get worse" as they grow older. They can, however, get arthritis or spondylosis - and THAT can get progressively worse as they grow older.
> The only way to improve a breed is to stop all this "back yard" breeding and leave it to experienced, ethical and knowledgeable breeders that KNOW the genetic makeup of their breeding stock - GENERATIONS BACK.
> ...



You're right. And I have to agree that 15 years is a good age for a lab. He probably had arthritis at that point, but wouldn't have lived a lot longer than 15 years anyway. You didn't loose him because he had bad genes. You lost him because he was old. I think he had good genes to live that long. Sorry you lost him. I know how hard that is, but knowing that it will someday happen is part of pet ownership. Doesn't make it any easier though.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> It's always painful when we loose our "best friends".
> 15 years is longer than the average Labs life expectancy! So IMHO he did remarkably well to live that long
> A dog either has Hip Dysplasia (mild to severe) or it doesn't. It doesn't "get worse" as they grow older. They can, however, get arthritis or spondylosis - and THAT can get progressively worse as they grow older.
> The only way to improve a breed is to stop all this "back yard" breeding and leave it to experienced, ethical and knowledgeable breeders that KNOW the genetic makeup of their breeding stock - GENERATIONS BACK.
> ...


I learned that some..not all boxer breeders will euth any puppies that are white or almost all white as some may be deaf... just can not agree with that.. I fosterd a white deaf boxer pup and she was a wonderful dog... even the so called good breeders put form and looks above health sometimes as they are just all about the show points.. any living thing should have a chance to be with someone who appreciates and loves it... we don't cull/kill humans so why should we do it with animals...as said some have a longer stay on this earth and some don't for reasons nature dictates, but to get rid of it on purpose after it is breathing and living, is just wrong unless it has no quality of life, and is sufferinng.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I learned that some..not all boxer breeders will euth any puppies that are white or almost all white as some may be deaf... just can not agree with that.. I fosterd a white deaf boxer pup and she was a wonderful dog... even the so called good breeders put form and looks above health sometimes as they are just all about the show points.. any living thing should have a chance to be with someone who appreciates and loves it... we don't cull/kill humans so why should we do it with animals...as said some have a longer stay on this earth and some don't for reasons nature dictates, but to get rid of it on purpose after it is breathing and living, is just wrong unless it has no quality of life, and is sufferinng.


*AMEN!.....*


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

I agree 100%, your quote below was about dogs the same exact thing applies to pigeons.



Msfreebird said:


> .....
> The only way to improve a breed is to stop all this "back yard" breeding and leave it to experienced, ethical and knowledgeable breeders that KNOW the genetic makeup of their breeding stock - GENERATIONS BACK.


Apply to our birds, it would be the fancier’s responsibility to improve the breed and not allow a pigeon that has displayed a weak immune system to reproduce. You could make a list of other defects or weaknesses that you would not want passed on. 

Every single variety of pigeon we have (and we love) was brought about by a fancier or fanciers through a very selective breeding process. What do you think they did if a pigeon did not meet up to their standard? I don’t know for sure but the "C" word comes to mind. 

What do you do with a pigeon that doesn’t measure up? Original Poster asked the question. There were only a couple of replies that answered it. Just curious what "experienced, ethical, and knowledgeable breeders" do, as it relates to pigeons.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Flapdoodle said:


> I agree 100%, your quote below was about dogs the same exact thing applies to pigeons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what "they" do and what the right thing to do is two different things.. I think it is common sense to take care of what you bring into the world wether it is perfect or nonperfect...instead of disposing of it.. but it is a free country so people will do as they see fit.. so in the end it is the choice of the breeder..and just a side note..Hitler tried to "get rid of" humans that he saw as inferior,wrong then and wrong now....even in this case if they are "just" pigeons..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> what "they" do and what the right thing to do is two different things.. I think it is common sense to take care of what you bring into the world wether it is perfect or nonperfect...instead of disposing of it.. but it is a free country so people will do as they see fit.. so in the end it is the choice of the breeder..and just a side note..*Hitler tried to "get rid of" humans that he saw as inferior,wrong then and wrong now....even in this case if they are "just" pigeons..*





Good Analogy.


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> what "they" do and what the right thing to do is two different things.. I think it is common sense to take care of what you bring into the world wether it is perfect or nonperfect...instead of disposing of it.. but it is a free country so people will do as they see fit.. so in the end it is the choice of the breeder..and just a side note..Hitler tried to "get rid of" humans that he saw as inferior,wrong then and wrong now....even in this case if they are "just" pigeons..


Very well said Spirt wing. My brother inlaw told me to give it too him so he can train his hunting dogs to fetch birds. And you said it just like it is its common sence to take care of what you bring into the world. It looked like it wouldnt make it but at least it died a natrual death not torchered to death. and that makes me feel good.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Human culling proposal (eugenics) was introduced long ago (the time of Darwin) and it was shutdown for obvious reason. Hitler was an idiot--a politician and not a geneticist so he was not qualified for it so the result was obvious. It is also complicated. I mean will you eliminate a blind kid/man? I happen to like Bocelli (singer, composer) and he is blind:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdxRmcgsKDQ

Now if you have your way, will you cull Hitler?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Flapdoodle said:


> I agree 100%, your quote below was about dogs the same exact thing applies to pigeons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like i have said before. Many people will go through there birds AND GIVE the culls to a peddler who in turn sells them at swap meets shows ect for a small price. And they give them to novices to get a start. That is better then lethal culling. As a person can go through a years worth of young birds and get rid of many 25 to over 100. Just the same witrh race birds. train them select the team and remove the rest as they would most would be lost on the races. Giving them away help you to have a better team. Just flying every bird not lost on training is not a team its left overs. A team is the best lets say 25 percent of your young birds Better trained better handled better results. then a weak bird if it stunted it can not perform as it should have So giving it a new home it lived or was not lost.


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Nature has a way, I had a pigeon named bubba and u could just look at him and know he was a little slower mentally than the others in the flock but that little guy loved my three year old daughter and eos come out and follow her around he was a great pidge but unfortunately he was out flying with his flock and a hawk swooped in and got him :'(


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I hate when that happens Pip. My tamest birds fell victims with hawks so now I don't try to tame my birds anymore. I want them not to be too trusting. Nature's way hurts! I don't know if you noticed ,but if there are 2 babies in the nest bowl and one is smaller, the parents will feed the bigger ones first and sometimes just ignore the smaller ones. They seem to know when the baby is not healthy and not put their resources on it unlike us humans. I suppose that what makes us human....


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah man I have noticed that. I'm not a racer so I don't mind a smaller weaker bird, nature usually takes care of it. I'm trying to get a small realease flock together for weddings and funerals.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> *I learned that some..not all boxer breeders will euth any puppies that are white* or almost all white as some may be deaf... just can not agree with that.. I fosterd a white deaf boxer pup and she was a wonderful dog... even the so called good breeders put form and looks above health sometimes as they are just all about the show points.. any living thing should have a chance to be with someone who appreciates and loves it... we don't cull/kill humans so why should we do it with animals...as said some have a longer stay on this earth and some don't for reasons nature dictates, but to get rid of it on purpose after it is breathing and living, is just wrong unless it has no quality of life, and is sufferinng.


I was going to mention that in my post for an example, but I didn't want to stir up too much trouble  White Boxer= disqualification in the show ring, Same with Chow Chow's "pink tongue" = Disqualification, must be all black (blue/black). They still make excellent "pet quality" dogs!
And if you want to get real technical - The "original" Pomeranian's weighed 30 pounds!!!! Breeders have managed to "downsize" them, BUT 30 lbs is STILL in their gene's "way back", and will pop up now and then. Still makes a great pet!
I agree with everything you said.....they are alive and healthy, they deserve a life and love............And same goes for pigeons
My philosophy is- "I don't play God, if he put it (whatever it is) in front of me, he meant for me to take care of it. If it doesn't make it, that was HIS decision"


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

When we set out to reproduce anything, whether children or animals, we commit to the care and well being of what we produce, warts and all! I like the native american philosophy that believes people and animals born with "flaws" were such valiant spirits in the spirit world that they need a greater challenge in the material world.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

doveone52 said:


> When we set out to reproduce anything, whether children or animals, we commit to the care and well being of what we produce, warts and all! * I like the native american philosophy that believes people and animals born with "flaws" were such valiant spirits in the spirit world that they need a greater challenge in the material world.*





That's nice. I really like that. Thanks.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

doveone52 said:


> When we set out to reproduce anything, whether children or animals, we commit to the care and well being of what we produce, warts and all!


If only everyone had that view then their wouldnt be a problem


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

chayi said:


> what do you do with weak birds, birds that looks like they dont have a future?
> say you have two baby birds same age one with weak legs or if you compare with birds of the same age the feathering of others is more completed. so you still keep them do you band them do you train them or do you get rid of them?


 I don't know how we start with a question such as this, move onto dog breeding, and then politics, but whenever we end up going down this road, the result is almost always the same, a closed thread. 

There are those who believe that every animal or bird which is produced, should be given a chance to live out their normal life expectancy. For such people, I suggest they don't become farmers or serious pigeon breeders.

To answer your question, when you attempt to settle these birds, which you suspect are "weak", in my area, the first tests come all too fast, by way of the Coopers Hawk. Next you have dozens of training tosses, and then after that maybe 9 races up to 300+ miles as a young bird. If the bird makes it through all those tests, then you were wrong, as most likely the bird was not weak after all.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I don't know how we start with a question such as this, move onto dog breeding, and then politics, but whenever we end up going down this road, the result is almost always the same, a closed thread.
> 
> * There are those who believe that every animal or bird which is produced, should be given a chance to live out their normal life expectancy. For such people, I suggest they don't become farmers or serious pigeon breeders.
> *
> To answer your question, when you attempt to settle these birds, which you suspect are "weak", in my area, the first tests come all too fast, by way of the Coopers Hawk. Next you have dozens of training tosses, and then after that maybe 9 races up to 300+ miles as a young bird. If the bird makes it through all those tests, then you were wrong, as most likely the bird was not weak after all.


Well that's what happens when you ask a question on a forum that has "racing people", "rehabbers" and "pigeon fanciers - just because they love them" All in the same place 
Dog breeding was mentioned as examples because it's something everybody can relate to. And I beg to differ with you.......I could be a farmer....a dairy farmer, goat milk and cheese farmer or egg farmer. I just couldn't kill anything I raised myself. In my job, I see terminal illness, accidents and death of pets everyday. It's very sad but it doesn't stop me from doing what I love to do....taking care of animals, the best I can while they are here.
I don't see this thread being closed down, because (so far) it's been very civil.
The fact is, what this topic on weak/defective animals and birds boils down to is "moral ethics". And you basically said the same thing...to give the bird a chance 
I'm not completely unreasonable. I understand mother nature has her way, and when racing or free flying your birds you take the chance of loosing them to hawks. That's just something "I" choose not to do. I have roughly 90 birds - homers, tumblers and fantails because I love them. I don't even sell any. They are my "family"
It's the "variety" of people that make the world go round, and that's good. I just think the majority here wish that people would be a little more caring when it comes to the "underdog".


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