# Coughing ?



## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

At first I noticed 3 birds had one eyed colds , they were treated successfully ; then noticed a coughing noise in 4 birds , 3 of the 4 had the one eye cold . Put amoxicillin 10mg tabs in them and treated the water with powdered form . One died , one is no longer coughing and two still are , one with a runny noise . Skipped a day and used pro -bios and got some Tylosine and Avio Dox on board for 3 days now , still coughing or making a grunting noise . What does one do now ? One is not eating , and it says not to force feed but I did anyway , bird is on heating pad set on low .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Runny nose .....it's late


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Birds,

Personally I think those are good choices for respiratory infections, assuming the Avio Dox is doxycycline. The fact that one bird is better suggests you could be giving the right treatment, however there is a possibility that some of the other birds are not getting enough antibiotic in the water. They need around 60mg of the amoxicillin each per day, which is hard to control in water.

Just as a side note that you probably know already, with amoxicillin its a good idea to use an antifungal like nystatin, since antibiotics, especially the stronger ones like Amoxicillin, can cause a fungal outbreak. The really sick bird could have a bit of thrush of the crop, but I'm just guessing based on personal experiences.

I really hope it works out for you. Hopefully someone with more experience than me will come along shortly and offer suggestions.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Treatment :
Doxycycline 30 mg once daily for 10 days


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks all ........ Dr.Boney -- have spent a small fortune on the Tylosine and Avi-Dox so I am going to keep giving that and hope for the best . I will use a syringe to get enough water in them so I know they are getting the medicine . I will be sure to get the Dox 30 mg when I can afford it . Amox , was all I had on hand when this occurred , maybe not the best , but at the time anything was better than nothing or so I thought , maybe I am wrong .As for the Amox , I thought it was a medicine that was used for a wide spectrum of infections . The loft has been cleaned from top to bottom and has been dis-infected . As you already know those meds I am giving was for a flock treatment . Flock vs single bird medications , I straddle the fence on which is best .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> .As for the Amox , I thought it was a medicine that was used for a wide spectrum of infections . The loft has been cleaned from top to bottom and has been dis-infected . As you already know those meds I am giving was for a flock treatment . Flock vs single bird medications , I straddle the fence on which is best .


Just wondering, how long did you give the amoxicillin to the birds, and at what dosage in the water?

Also, can you conform what avi-dox is exactly? Is it doxycycline?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Birds were getting well with the Doxy capsule , two relapsed , one sneezes water and mucous everywhere when it drinks , all birds are good but the two that relapsed . I am hand feeding the sickest bird Kay-Tee formula , its appetite is way down , plus if it vomited it back up , I would treat for canker as well, because that would tell me that the bird has a watery crop , switched to terramycin for the respiratory also . Any suggestions ? Birds are isolated from each other and are on heating pads . Thank you


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

You might try treating for canker.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

You might try treating for canker.
__________________
Charis

*********************************
Will do , 1 of the actual 4 that feel ill to respiratory problems presented classic canker symptoms and we treated as such and that bird is well . Even though it had respiratory symptoms at the onset . Thanks


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, you have to pay attention to how the birds are presenting and what that is telling you. You have, if I am right, had 7 birds sick with what you call one eye cold and also coughing. Some treated successfully and some have relapsed, but the key is they all responded to antibiotic treatment. However, for two, the antibiotics failed to clear the infection and they have gone back down hill, although according to you, they did improve, before regressing.

You have chosen to change from Doxycycline to Terramycin (Oxytetracycline) to see if that would help. Usually when you have a case where a patient has responded to antibiotic, then regressed, it''s indicative that it is a bacterial infection, just the particular antibiotic was intermediate against the infection in an individual case. Meaning that the weaker bacteria in the strain were sensitive to the antibiotic, this presents as the patient initially responding, then the patient relapses as the more resistant bacteria in the strain start to multiply. When this happen you generally want to change the class of antibiotic completely, but you have switched from one tetracycline to another, meaning you are using a drug in the same family as one that has shown it will not clear this infection, in these two particular birds. By the way, as tetracyclines go, Doxycycline has much better tissue penetration and a broader spectrum of coverage than Oxytetracycline.

I would suggest that you try the birds on Baytril and if this is not possible perhaps Trimethoprim/Sulfa, and if the is not possible to find a feed/farmer supply that sells Sulmet or Albon, and add that in with the Oxytetracycline, as they work complementary together to broaden the range of coverage and to add a new class of antibiotics, a Sulfonamide to their treatment regimen (the Trimethoprim/Sulfa is also regarded as a Sulfonamide), but see if you can find some Baytril/Cipro as a first choice.

Good luck with them,

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I have Sulmet on hand , the bird is eating and drinking on its own , so I suppose that is a good sign . Do a 1:1 one ratio on mixing the two ? Does that make sense what I am asking ? How many days would you offer it also ? Thank you all . It is by no means listless . Very active and wants out of the generous quarantine hospital cage that I have .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds said:


> I have Sulmet on hand , the bird is eating and drinking on its own , so I suppose that is a good sign . Do a 1:1 one ratio on mixing the two ? Does that make sense what I am asking ? How many days would you offer it also ? Thank you all . It is by no means listless . Very active and wants out of the generous quarantine hospital cage that I have .


Birds, most Sulmet is 12.5%, meaning there is 125mg of active medicine (Sulfamethazine) in each 1mL measure of the Sulmet. Because you mention the birds have relapsed, I would dose them orally 0.10cc (this is 2 drops, and will equal 12.5mg of Sulfamethazine) right away. Then go to water dosing for 7 days (but leave plain water with them until 12 hours after giving 2 drops orally), 1 tablespoon of Sulmet to 1 gallon of water, if they are drinking well, if they are iffy on the drinking, continue with the oral dosing, q12h (this dosing will be OK for a bird in the 300-400g area). I understand what you mean by 1:1, but dosing at 1 tablespoon a gallon should work with a broad range of dosing amounts for the Terramycin you are giving.

I think doing this, adding in the Sulmet is a good idea since you have it on hand, but as I mentioned, my first choice would be to get them on either Baytril or Cipro, so I would still try and do this, if possible. Just one 500mg Ciprofloxacin tablet would be enough for treatment for them both, perhaps, family, friends or neighbors might have some around.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Got the Sulmet on board @12:49 A.M. central time , now are you suggesting 1 gallon of each and giving equal parts for drinking ? If not , how much Terramycin would you give orally , all I have of it is the powder form . They are drinking the water with the Terramycin in it quite readily . At the moment there are no snotty noses and the one bird that was sneezing after drinking is dry tonite . Yesterday it sneezed water so much that its breast feathers were soaking wet and stained from the Terramycin . Again , both are not listless , they have vigor about them and are eating. I don't like having sick birds , who does , but it gives those of us a chance to use medicines properly , conservatively and a good learning experience . I never had a clue about Terramycin and Doxycycline being in the same family of anti-biotics . Is there a particular book that you recommend for
us novices to learn more about medicines et. al. ? I lost one bird from this so far and don't expect to lose another to this , but have to chalk it up
to learning . Like the one bird that had the respiratory problem then exhibited classic canker symptoms , due to already working with canker I was
prepared and got on top of it asap . That bird recovered from both and quite well I might add . There was and is satisfaction when one thinks
they helped save a bird with proper medications . I work hard at loft maintenance also . Cleaning , disinfecting , etc .... but I know there is a lot
yet to be learned , and I want to learn as much as possible . Forgive my rambling . Thank you .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, here are a few links to get you started with medication info, the first fairly basic, the second two more in depth:

http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html
http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/17.pdf
http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/18.pdf

You can add both meds to the same gallon of water, might be an idea to post what dosing you are using for the Terramycin and whether it's at 100% or mixed with excipient (filler), if mixed, what percentage is the active at? Also, with tetracyclines, you need to pull grit, as calcium can bind up tetracyclines making them less effective.

Don't worry about rambling, sometimes needs to be done when free flowing thoughts.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Okay , what we have is Durvet(r) Duramycin-10 Terrracycline Hydrochloride Soluble powder 

Each lb contains 25 g of tetracycline hydrochloride 
10 g of tetracycline hydroclohride 
********************************************************
I made a mistake in saying I had terrramycin , got that for their eyes , cream form . 
How badly have I messed up or am I still on the right track ? They are still alert and moving about in their hospital cage . Should I pull the tetracycline and just orally dose with the Sulmet or just leave the Tetracycline , or still use both ? Doesn't say on the package about any fillers or what all the active ingredients are .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

We have Duramycin-10
Tetracycline Hydrochloride 
25 g per lb 
10 g activity
The weight of the package is 6.4 oz . 

I had the terramycin cream for the eyes , 
This is what I switched over to , I goofed on what I was telling you , used this at very tiny amount to 1 gallon of water . Not even a teaspoon to a gallon . Maybe half .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds said:


> Okay , what we have is Durvet(r) Duramycin-10 Terrracycline Hydrochloride Soluble powder
> 
> Each lb contains 25 g of tetracycline hydrochloride
> 10 g of tetracycline hydroclohride
> ...


You are on the right track, but instead of Oxytetracycline, you have used Tetracycline, not that big a difference. How much of the Duramycin-10 have you been adding to a gallon?

OK, I see you just posted how much, give me a minute while I figure out dosing for this product.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

About a half a teaspoon per gallon ...... 6.4 oz makes 100 gallons ........ and I am horrible at math .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I got this off the Global pigeon supply web site for Duramycin-10:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/product_info.php?products_id=695&osCsid=oslo2rcvtka2bgidu5jkpru294

So you want to use the lower dose, 1 teaspoon, to one gallon, since you are combining it with the 1 tablespoon of Sulmet, so 1 teaspoon Duramycin + 1 tablespoon of Sulmet.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thank you, and I will file all this information away in a folder I have started about respiratory problems and the past few days issues . 3 days and remove the grit is the course of action at this time . Thanks for being kind enough to help ! Will update and let you know the outcome . Will start studying anti-biotics as well , so I can be specific with them and not overlap .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Been reading about anti-biotics , noticing most work against gram+ and gram- . During this time of illness , we got amoxicillian on board , because we had that in pill and powder form , but as we got deeper into this , suggestions were made to use different medications . We had Sulmet on hand but got it because we thought it worked best on cocci ? Have learned that Metrondiazulum is good for canker , a question arises here , Do we piggy back another medicine along with the Metrondiazulum (sp) ? Is Amoxycillian not a first drug of choice in any case , like I said we used it until we could get the ones that were being advised to use . Used the applesauce on a bird that was vomiting peas back up and that fixed that rather quickly . I know everyone has their own methods , but what are some front line anti-biotics to use straight away should one notice a symptom or symptoms ? Then what about a secondary illness , like I was told what we were using was helping but the relapse indicated a stronger medicine . I have a lot of questions and will throw them out on the floor from time to time . If I am going to raise pigeons then it is my responsibility to know how to take care of them properly , whether that be proper loft maintenance , doing some preventative measures , being able to recognize an illness and treat it effectively and offer proper after care . I saw sick birds respond to treatment and get better and that was a good feeling . Of course we had some good tutoring along the way . Going to keep studying the ant-biotics for now , there is so much to learn .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

What would be the first antibiotic given before a bird id accurately dosed , that wold have low side effects ? In the first hours ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds said:


> What would be the first antibiotic given before a bird id accurately dosed , that wold have low side effects ? In the first hours ?


Birds, not sure what you are getting at, can you rephrase your question?

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Yeah , sorry , didn't sleep last nite and had several test run on my back today .

What would be the best antibiotic to get on board before the bird could be properly diagnosed , that had the lowest side effects , like in the " Golden Hour " referred to in an Emergency Room and would amoxyclilian be one of those medicines ? Hopefully we can figure it out in the "Golden Hour " , but if not , what would be the best to start treating with ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, one antibiotic I think is a good choice in many situations is one called Trimethoprim/Sulfa. It's active against a large range of infections our birds get, everything from Salmonella, to E. Coli, to Coccidiosis. So if a bird is ill, a vet is not an option and you want to cover as many possibilities as you can, this medicine makes sense. Also, it is a drug of choice for squabs under 3 weeks of age, unlike say Baytril, so there that as a consideration as well. There are a number of companies that make this medicine, myself, I use Bird Sulfa from Thomas Labs, as it is a full strength version and the strength is precisely known. Here's a link:

http://www.petsupplies4less.com/Bird-Sulfa-60-Tablets--pr--001TLBSULF60

I should also mention, not to give drugs in the penicillin family (like Amoxicillin) and the tetracycline family together, as generally they are antagonistic and actually cause each other to work more poorly. One last mention, the Sulmet you are using is a Sulfonamide, kind of like the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, but it's kinda' the Sulfa part without the Trimethoprim to potentiate and make it a more effective drug. Sulmet is mentioned a lot for coccidiosis, but it still an effective medicine for a range of other infections as well.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Karyn,

May I ask you, with the `bird sulfa', which is 80mg Trimethoprim & 400mg Sulfamethoxazole, could you tell me what is the dosage in mg/kg bird? I have the same product with me here , but its called trimeseptol (80mg Trimethoprim & 400mg Sulfamethoxazole) and I want to mix some up for my latest two rescues. They are on Amoxicillin right now, but I want to use the sulfa/trim to cover coccidia as well.

Thanks so much Karyn.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> Dear Karyn,
> 
> May I ask you, with the `bird sulfa', which is 80mg Trimethoprim & 400mg Sulfamethoxazole, could you tell me what is the dosage in mg/kg bird? I have the same product with me here , but its called trimeseptol (80mg Trimethoprim & 400mg Sulfamethoxazole) and I want to mix some up for my latest two rescues. They are on Amoxicillin right now, but I want to use the sulfa/trim to cover coccidia as well.
> 
> Thanks so much Karyn.


The dose would be 50mg/kg, twice a day. Crush a pill up very fine, add 10mL of honey, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir very well again and you will have a 4.8% TMS suspension (48/mg/mL). Keep in the refrigerator, stir very well before each use.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you Karyn!


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Arrrgggghhhh ,

Got two more today that have started coughing . Twice , I have cleaned and dis-infected that loft . These two are isolated in the hospital and are offered the Sulmet and Duramycin mix . In fact I just gave the entire flock that mixture for flock treatment , hoping to eradicate it . These two have no snotty noses or eye problems . Just that hacky cough . Ordered the medicines that Dobato recommended , but can't get until Monday . Dobato , hopefully you read this , and concur with the treatment or offer another . I did give them .10 cc's Sulmet when I removed them ; two drops . I have read that respiratory illnesses are sometimes tough to treat . The other two that were in isolatation are doing fine and were released back into the flock , but since I am flock treating again will this hurt those two with another round of medicines ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, yeah, you are going to have to give the place a good going over again with the cleaning/disinfecting, just in case. Sounds like you got them started pretty quick on the meds you have at hand, which is good. The Trimethoprim/Sulfa I mentioned is a good all round first choice med for a good number of infections, including respiratory ones. However, most times if it's a respiratory infection I am concerned with I have had good results with the Baytril I mentioned much earlier in your thread and I have at times combined this with Doxycycline for some tough cases. Also Doxy-T (Doxycycline + Tylosin) is another pretty good choice for respiratory issues.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I have the general antibiotic coming , can't find Baytril , want it in capsule form , as for the Cipro , I haven't been able to find that either . Instead of the Avi-Doc and Tylosine , which I got at first , when this all began happening , I am going to stay with the Sulmet + Duramycin that you had me use , should I stay on that regime or switch back to Avi-Doc and Tylosine . Would you suggest a 7 day flock treatment ?i have been using Oxine to dis-infect , wondering if I should switch over to Nolvasan ? Thanks again Dobato . Seems like kindergarten out there and they are passing it back and forth . Siegals offers a mix of Dox+Tylosine+Spiramycin . All in one .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, with meds, my general preference is that you buy full strength individual medications and then either use them alone or in combination, if a situation warrants it, this way you are in more control, than with the combos, in terms of active strength, than meds you can purchase as a combo product.

I would continue with the Sulfa and Tetracycline for the moment, and see if it helps to finally clear the infection from the two birds you have been working on.

Here is where you can get some Baytril:

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

Personally, I would go with the Nolvasan, as it has a number of studies, in the literature, that it is effective against a wide variety of bacteria, fungi and viruses.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks again , and I concur with what you say about individual treatments with the strongest or full strength medicines . Will continue current regime and use the Novalsan I have on hand . Thanks again for all the help and advice . If I may , one doesn't feel so helpless when we have people like you helping us neophytes out .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Dobato ,
Will have the Bird Sulpha , Baytil and Primilac coming 10/24 . Cipro , I need a vet to prescribe . Right now I am doing a flock treatment again plus have 4 isolated for individual treatments . I have two squeakers and don't know if they should be drinking the Sulmet / Duramycine combo ? Should I isolate those squeakers and give the Primilac to ? When I get these medicines should I just stay on course for now , stop at the appropriate time and put all on Primilac for a couple of days to restore the good gut bacteria ? Should this ever happen again , do you suggest the Trimethoprim/Sulfa as the drug of choice for immediate intervention with a cold and our a back up with , a good , canker , or cocci medicine ? When would Baytril be your first medicine of choice and how would you administer it , by cc's ? I feel like once I have some Cipro in the medicine chest , it will be rather complete . Although my Amox is not strong at all , I think it's 20mg . Someone mentioned when using Amox one needs to have nystatin on hand for ( thrush). Birds are no longer coughing , appetite and water consumption is good . Over all appearance is good and they are in no means listless nor showing any canker symptoms . Not going light . Poops are okay .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

(Just read this about Baytril .) FDA pulled it for poultry use . Enrofloxacin is a fluoroquinolone antibiotic sold by the Bayer Corporation under the trade name Baytril. Enrofloxacin is currently FDA-approved for treatment of individual pets and domestic animals in the United States. In September 2005, the FDA withdrew approval of Baytril for use in water to treat flocks of poultry, as this practice was noted to promote the evolution of fluoroquinolone-resistant strains of the bacterium Campylobacter, a human pathogen.[3] Fluoroquinolones such as ciprofloxacin are widely used in the treatment of human disease.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, it sounds like your birds are have come along quite well, glad to hear they are no longer coughing and the droppings are looking good. You always want to finish a complete course of antibiotics once you start, as doing short treatments can sometimes lead to the promotion of resistant bacteria. I would finish the course of treatment and give them the Primalac for a couple of days, then just keep an close eye on them for the next little while.

If you are getting in Baytril, I would not worry too much about Cipro as they both are fluoroquinolones and the short answer is they are fairly similar enough to each other not to need both. Personally, I tend to use the Trimethoprim/Sulfa when I suspect infection that has a GI component to it (or suspect a reproductive infection in a hen), as not only will it treat bacterial infections, such as E. Coli and salmonella, that can cause enteritis, but coccidiosis as well, that can also cause GI ills. If the infection is respiratory in nature, I tend to try Baytril first and if then I am not satisfied, in 24-48h, there is a good response, I tend to add Doxycycline along with the Baytril. If you have chosen the right medication for a bird, for most infections, it usually is pretty apparent, within 24-48h, and you will start to see an improvement in condition in them.

Amoxicillin is quite good for soft tissue infection and also there will be times that a bird is not responding to something like Baytril and the nice thing is with Amoxicillin is you can be pretty aggressive with dose amounts (probably the safest of the antibiotics we commonly use) and it can sometimes clear things some of the newer meds don't seem to be hitting.

For protozoal infections (canker) you are going to need to have some Metronidazole on hand, also, Metronidazole combines very well with both Trimethoprim/Sulfa and with Baytril, these are two drugs of choice for reproductive infections in hens, as it also a drug of choice against anaerobic bacteria, so you would combine it with either Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Baytril in these cases to broaden the spectrum of coverage.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Have this Metronidazole on hand . I have Doxy 50mg capsules the the Avi-dox , would have to check and see how much of the Doxy is actually in this powder form . With the Baytril Liquid coming in such a small dose how would you mix it with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa , since that is a 500 mg capsule for treatments ? I knew I needed something other than the Metronidazole to treat for canker or other G.I. infections . Would you orally give the Baytril via syringe , along with the Trimethoprim/Sulfa 500mg capsule , if so , what dose of Baytril would one give and with these more powerful multiple doses , treatment time would be shortened , is that a correct assumption ? Should stored Primilac , et.al. be refrigerated ? My Pro Bios has to be out of date , from what I gather that product is only beneficial for several months where as Primilac has a longer life span . Thank you Dobato . It makes one feel better when they know they have the right tools to work with , in this case , medicines and tutoring .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Meant to say , should Primilac , Pro-Bios et.al. be refrigerated ?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, perhaps I should have been more clear, in my last post, but you would not use Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Baytril together, you would use either alone or at times in combination with Metronidazole. When you get the Thomas Lab's Trimethoprim/Sulfa, it will say on the bottle to use one 400/80mg tablets in 8oz of water, this will be too strong a dosing, you will use one tablet in 1 liter of water. Also, you will crush the pill up into a powder before adding it to the water, to help it dissolve better, as well as faster, this would be how you would do flock dosing. For individual doing you would make up a suspension from one of the pills, here is a link below on how to do this from another thread I gave instructions in. You will dose at the rate of 50mg/kg q12h, meaning that for each 100g of a bird's body weight, you will give 5mg (this will be roughly to the first line on a 1cc syringe, 0.10cc, 4.8mg), so a 350g bird would get about 0.36cc (17.3mg), for example every 12 hours (this is about 7 drops).

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=606860&postcount=47

With the Baytril, if you ordered the product from Allbirds, it is a 10% solution, meaning that each 1mL contains 100mg of Enrofloxacin (Baytril). You can dose this two ways, for flock treatment, you would dose 2mL per liter of water (it may come with instructions to use 1mL per liter, but use 2mL) and also on an individual basis where you would dose at 20mg/kg q24h. Meaning you would dose 2mg for every 100g of a bird's body weight, once every 24 hours. Again, as an example, a bird weighing 350g would receive 7mg, once every 24 hours, this would be 0.07cc (a bit over 1 drop, a few ticks below the 0.10cc line of a 1cc syringe). Because the Baytril is quite concentrated, it may be easier dilute it 50:50 with pure water and dose, so 1mL of Baytril to 1mL of water, this will give you a 5% solution and you would dose 0.14cc (I would just round it to 0.15cc, 3 drops) for the exampled 350g bird.

Now days, there are probiotics in both the refrigerated section and also right on the self, un-refrigerated . You would store whatever probiotics you are using, in the manner they were stored when you purchased them, so store refrigerated ones in the fridge and the non, in a cool, dark cupboard.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Dobato ,
Yes, I should have those items that you suggested , and I ordered them from the respective websites you suggested . Late yesterday evening one of my squeakers
wasn't fairing so well , it was not running around like a wild banshee trying to get fed
;although it had food in its crop . I brought it in and put it in my intensive care cage , that has a heating pad and some comfortable materials to lay on . I gave it several cc's
of chick starter I keep on hand ( similar to pedialyte ) it perked up and I fed it some Kay-tee powdered form fed by syringe before I turned in . The squeaker looks fine this morning , but looks can be deceiving . It was lethargic acting when I first observed yesterday and it appeared a little unsteady on its feet . When I fed it , it had spunk . I will check its crop before I feed again , also its poop looked fine . Any ideas ? Spent the afternoon with a breeder friend and he has some German Beauty Homers that are in isolation because he just got them in recently . He told me what all he was using and I suggested
he use the mix that you have recommended for mine that were having respiratory problems and suggested putting them on a heating pad , because they did look feverish . Hope his method works , and I hope he will switch over if he has seen no improvement this morning . Thanks for giving further instructions , what about the squeaker ? Thank you .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How old is the squeaker, was it one of the ones feeling off before, did it ever receive any prior treatment, if older is he self-feeding /drinking at all, can you post up a photo of its droppings? Keep an eye on the crop and make sure it continues to empty OK, and don't overfeed.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

The squeaker and its mate are old enough to be off the nest and scurrying about to be fed , a month ? Its mate is still after Mom to be fed , so they are not self feeding . It was getting water though , and it was the medicated water that had the Sulmet/Duramycin in it . I will try to get my wife to get a photo of the droppingd and post it . The droppings are firm with that little dollop of white on top and they are brown . I am going to feed it again shortly , crop emptying is not a problem . Dad died at the very onset of the ills that started in the loft . They were about a week old , at the time all I had was Amoxy and I gave him an oral dose , I knew he was ill because he was rattling when he breathed , no cough . I was a bit concerned about them getting the medicated
water and it being toxic . Today is the last day of flock treatment and tomorrow , the Primalac will be added to their water . I am a little antsy , hoping the respiratory problems got knocked out . No one is coughing or rattling . The birds all eat and drink , if I have to start over , I don't know how much longer any of them can go with a gut depleted with the bacteria they need ------sigh------ Thanks Dobato .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Photo on 2011-10-25 at 18.14_2.jpg


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Disregard that


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

*droppings*







Hope that this right. this is a image of droppings from baby.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

well , the droppings showed up a couple of times , but can't find the picture now


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, I don't blame you for being concerned, especially in light that he is a squab of a bird that dies from this infection. Droppings look OK, so if he is behaving generally well and showing no signs illness, I would just continue as you are doing finish up all treatments and start them all on the probiotics for a few days and see how things are. Because of this little episode with this little one, I would also just keep a little closer eye on him for the next little while as well.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Dobato ,
So far so good and the one in intensive care is eating and drinking on its own , with no change in droppings . That bird will be isolated for a spell . Its protective when I feed and water ; so I suppose that is a good sign . Flock was put on Primilac today , and will keep the on for (2x) more days . I have some Duravet vitamins and electrolytes that I would like to use . Got it at Tractor Supply .It can be used for most critters and it says chickens , but nothing specifically about pigeons . Dosing is 4 powdered oz's to 55 gal which is 24 tsp's , or about 2.23 tsps a gallon . I think my math is right . Does this product sound okay to use . Picked it up when I got the Duramycin , saved a couple of bucks and a small fortune on shipping . What say you ?? Also do you know anyone that raises LaHores ; had them as a teen , very lovely and gentle bird , would like to find at least two pair in the black ,and the other the reddish color . Thanks Dobato . P.S. My buddy put his German Beauty Homers on the same treatment you had my birds on and they are doing better . Respiratory symptoms , and we are hitting down deeper , droppings look good .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, on one of the poultry web sites, a member said he called the manufacturer of the Durvet and was told 3/4 teaspoon a gallon for his chicks, with another suggestion of 1 teaspoon for grown birds, so I would go with these doses as a guide and use 3/4-1 teaspoon a gallon. Good to hear things are stable and your friend's birds are doing better. Can't help you with the Lahores, but I see you posted over in the Birds Wanted section, hopefully you'll get some responses from there.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Tonight after I closed windows and made sure every one was alright , I stood motionless , and much to my chagrin I heard that grumbling noise coming from 2 birds , but it was not quite like what I heard before when the respiratory illness broke out . One was a hen sitting ,and she could see me well enough to puff up and their was one right in front of me but not puffed up like the defense posture . Maybe I am imaging things , but I sure don't want any relapses . I have a lot of medicines , was wondering
if I could give these two a one two punch with something I have medicinally . Thank you should you reply .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds,

Regarding the antibiotics you've been using, which I believe included Amoxicllin, doxycycline and trim/sulfa so far, these really should have taken care of just about any respiratory infection, I believe. You have chosen well there, with these medicines (with Karyn's great guidance, of course)

But since you're still getting the coughing/rumbling, then it may be time to consider other (less likely) causes of this cough such as worms, Aspergillosis (a fungal infection), & candida. The Aspergillosis & candida would need something like Nystatin, which should be easy to get.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella F , thanks for responding , Dobato was great help . Is Wazine an okay wormer ? It's what I have on hand . As for a Nystatin , don't know what that is and how to administer . If you would be kind enough to reply , I would greatly appreciate it . I wormed them about 6 months ago . Thank You !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, I believe given the recent history of illness in your loft, you have every right to be quite cautious. Hens do make low, grumbling sounds when they feel anxious, so it could be that, but do your best to ascertain whether it is something truly respiratory in nature, or just defensive sounds. If you feel that you can't be sure, and would like to try a further round of treatment on these two, I would advise using the Baytril you ordered in, following the instructions I gave earlier to you for individual treatment, then reaccess if you feel there was no positive response in 24-48 hours, then we can look at other possibilities such as Bella mentions. Nystatin is a contact anti-fungal medicine, meaning it has to come in contact with fungi in order to kill, Nystatin is not absorbed by the body to work throughout. The Aspergillosis, also mentioned, is a systemic fungal infection that would need a systemic anti-fungal medicine, such as Fluconozole or Itraconazole in order to treat, they are absorbed by the body to work throughout, these meds are only available by prescription from your vet.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-651/MEDISTATIN-100-g-(Medpet)/Detail.bok

The Wazine you have could be alternated with something like Moxidectin-Plus, found in the link below. The Moxidectin Plus has Praziquantel added for control of tape worms, if this is a concern for you. People de-worm their birds based on a whole list of criteria, such as access to bare soil/earth, mixing with birds outside one's loft, having less strict quarantine procedures when introducing new birds, whether wild-birds have access to areas a person's birds are keep and so on. So you kind of have to figure out your own bird's needs are, as they may differ others, you can also arrange with your vet for periodic group fecal floats. This is where you would collect random samples of droppings from a bunch of birds around your loft, you don't even really have to worry who did what droppings. Then if worm eggs turn up in the test you treat everyone.

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-worms.html


Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds & Karyn,

I hope you don't mind me adding some input? 

If these were my birds still coughing ( ...if they are still coughing & not making normal growls?), I'd honestly proceed exactly how Karyn described it..I'd have one last shot at using the antibiotics to clear a possible resistant bacterial infection, using Baytril this time. If there was still coughing, then I'd move onto an antifungal, though I'd personally be using Nystatin at this stage because of all the antibiotics that have been used , and therefore the possibility of thrush. Though I don't have any personal experience with Fluconozole, I understand that Karyn knows a lot about it and it is essential for systemic fungal infections like Aspergillosis. 

Regarding the possibility of worms causing the coughing, I should stress that this is very unlikely, but if worms ARE the problem,then what you are dealing with are either gape worms or lung worms. These are very uncommon in pigeons ,and worming for these types of worms can kill your birds. The least risky treatment for these worms would be Levamisole. Wazine would not treat these worms,nor would Moxidectin (but I do use Moxydectin personally and highly recommend it for regular worming.)


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella F , 
I don't mind at all . We gave a quick shot of .10 cc's orally of Sulmet and then the Sulmet and Duramycin as drinking water and that seemed to take care of it . Can I do the same with the Baytril on the suspect birds , and isolate them . Kinda wish I didn't have to pull one because she is on eggs . I am going to get the Moxydectin and found the Nystatin at Siegals , but they are out ! I have yet to go out tonite and just stand motionless and listen . Chickens get gapeworm . Have to call around tomorrow and find some Nystatin elsewhere . From what I understand about the gapeworm and the host ; the host exhibits odd neck contortions . Would the pigeon exhibit the same as a chicken with the neck contortions ? If I have to treat the whole flock with this possibly lethal wormer -----sigh---- this doesn't sound good . Am I looking at the possibility of losing an entire loft ????? I must say , I am a bit disheartened .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Okay , 
Maybe I can't differ between normal and abnormal sounds , but I don't like what I am hearing and tonite there was another so that is 3 birds making this normal or abnormal sound . Maybe I am just being over cautious and it is completely normal out there , but there is a distinct noise coming from 3 birds . There is no coughing or hacking though . It's a low pitched grumbling noise for lack of a better word . Again , can I get a quick dose in them before isolation with medicated water with Baytril ; like we did with the Sulmet . I don't understand , the loft and flight is very spacious , and clean , yet I have seen lofts or pens with them jammed up so tight that another would not fit with poo from 10 years ago and they are healthy . Soil floors, that are damp et.al. .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Or should I hit the whole bunch again with Baytril ? Or what ?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds,
I should have mentioned that it is pretty unlikely that your pigeons have gape worm, so considering the risks with worming, it may be best to explore the possibility of a fungal infection first, as its lot more common and the antibiotics would not have treated this.

I personally treat a lot of wild birds with gape worms , but I'm told they are rare worms in pigeons for some reason, and I have never seen a pigeon with gape worm (that i know of). The usual symptoms I see in other birds are coughing to begin with, then gasping for breath in advanced cases , and stunted babies. The worms get into the lungs and the crop,so young birds starve and suffocate to death. Adult birds can sometimes survive by coughing them out of their system,which is why coughing is a major symptoms of these worms.

Also,please note that Moxidectin and wazine won't treat gapeworms. Levamizole will though,and its a fairly safe wormer. Moxidectin is really great because it doesn't make the birds nauseous and my sick birds seem to handle it very well. If you put it in water, it treats external parasites as well as internal ones too. Its not going to be useful for treating a cough caused by worms though, just you know.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> Or should I hit the whole bunch again with Baytril ? Or what ?


Maybe wait until you can figure out if the grumble is a normal sound or not. Do you know the sounds of pigeons when they are nesting/calling their mates? They can make some strange sounds like growls and grunts, which are normal ...

PS. Its not so great to give one-off doses of antibiotics, especially Baytril. You need to follow through with antibiotic treatments for their full courses as much as possible, or there is a risk of your flock developing resistant bacteria to all these antibiotics, which would be horrible for the long run. 

Can you tell us any more about the sounds you're hearing?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I definitely know the mating calls , it is more of exhaled growl , like I said last nite , one that was making it was a hen on eggs , and I thought it might be her warning me , but then there was a cock standing by his mate and he was making the same sound , I wasn't so close that I would think he was giving me a warning , I am hoping it's a territorial sound , but tonite the third came from the other side of the loft at least 6 feet away , my loft is 8x12x 7.5 tall with 3/4" ply floor , the flight is 10x10x6 , so as you can imagine it is very spacious and houses about 20 birds . I am a novice , had them as a teen , got out , now 30 years later I have had them for almost a 1 1/2 years now . Was curious about something else , can we use pine shavings as litter or play sand on the floor ? Thanks Bella F , I will be back out a little later to listen some more . Maybe I should give it another 24 hours , but don't want a relapse since a 3rd is making it tonite.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

of an exhaled sounding growl .............


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

by the way Bella F glad to have your input as well , there have been several that have been very gracious with their time and knowledge .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> of an exhaled sounding growl .............


Hi Birds,

It sounds like you know the normal sounds of your pigeons, so I believe your perceptions when you say their growls are fishy and unusual. 

I don't have any experience with Aspergillosis personally, but to me some of what you're describing points in that direction, since you've treated them for most bacterial infections already, and Aspergillosis has similar symptoms but its fungal, not bacterial in origin.. Its needs the medicine fluconozole that Karyn mentioned in an earlier post. Its the kind of fungal infection that can cause changes to the pigeon's voice, respiratory illness, coughing, and other symptoms. 

The thing about the antibiotics you have used already, is they can have an overall anti-inflammatory effect and combat secondary infections, so it would be usual to see some improvement in your birds, even if they weren't helping with the main problem exactly, like a fungal infection. 

Something to ask Karyn about, when she comes back, I think would be could you move your birds onto Baytril plus fluconozole. If it IS Aspergillosis, its needs to be treated sooner rather than later.

Karyn, what do you think? Or Pidgey, are you around?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Aspergillosis is not normally contagious unless your coop is somehow infested with the spores. That doesn't sound like your coop though? Do you feed them peanuts or have potentially contaminated grain? And you don't use any substrate that could be contaminated do you?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

No , no peanuts , my feed is bought as needed , no substrates , I buy a scratch from Tractor Supply that I like because it offers more grains , but it is a bit dustier than what I used in the past . They get oyster and red grit and Primalac once a week . Now I don't have this fluconozole , but maybe I have something i can substitute it with ?? What about floor litter , is pine shavings or play sand okay to put down on the loft floor ? Now this loft is new , and they were moved in mid -summer and I hung a window fan for air movement and to keep temps down in there , is there a possibility that the dry dusty air is the culprit ?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

They do not eat from the floor either , they get the 15 to 20 minutes feeding time and then it's pulled so there is not contaminated food scattered about .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds, Thanks a lot for explaining. I can only make a guess, but warm, dusty conditions can potentially cause an outbreak of Aspergillosis according to this publication:

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_13.pdf

Its does say that `` dust conditions associated with this weather pattern are thought to have interfered with respiratory clearance mechanisms by reducing the
amount of mucous and other body secretions that coat the
cellular lining of the throat and air passages to the lungs,
thereby increasing bird susceptibility to aspergillosis. A fall
outbreak in Steller’s jays in British Columbia was associated with a particularly dry and warm summer''

PS. Regarding using sand on the loft floor, I've personally heard that this is a good substrate for pigeon coops. The pine shavings I'm not sure about.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PPS.

Birds, One last idea I have is the possibility of airsac mites, which cause repiratory symptoms also. Airsac mites are very contagious , unlike Aspergillosis. These are treated with Moxidectin.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

This is my plan , Baytril first , getting the systemically working fluconozole prescription somehow , if the Nysatin that Jedds and others sell doesn't work systemically then to me that is a waste . The Fluconozole looks to me like one gets more bang for their buck , if it covers all these fungi and associated problems that we have been discussing . Doesn't that make sense ; to use the most effective one ????


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

That title under the moniker says , Senior Bird , lol , more like a squab still .


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, I suggested using the Baytril because of the recent history in your loft, that a number of birds presented with respiratory symptoms, that the majority of responded to antibiotic treatment and are well again. There are reasons that not all birds will respond to a given antibiotic, the first thing you want to look at, with flock/water dosing as you did, is did they get enough medicine to clear them of the infection along with the robustness of their own immune systems in helping the antibiotic clear the infection. With whatever it is that may be infecting your birds, you have shown, that from the beginning, they have responded to antibiotic treatment, but that it has taken a few changes to get most well again. It just may be for a last few, between the water dosing, their own body needs, and perhaps not quite the right medicine, that a few birds may need individually dosed with a drug noted for being quite good at respiratory issues.

I think most times, it's better to stick with the idea of what is causing illness is something more common, than rare. So while gape worms, air-sac mites and even Aspergillosis should not be ruled out, based on what has been going on at your loft and the response so far to treatment, I would lean more towards something bacterial, that for a few, may need further treatment, with a more effective medicine. Right now, I have a hen that picked up a respiratory infection, which I started her on Baytril for, she did respond to treatment, but three days later still sounded a bit "wet" in her breathing, last night I added in Doxycycline to her treatment and this morning she sounds quite clear. So sometimes it takes getting the med right or the right combo to get them by some infections that are proving somewhat resistant. As Bella mentions, it's important when starting a course of antibiotics treatment that a full course is given, which is usually 7-10 days and could be longer for a few harder to clear infections.

With loft floors, this is one of those questions that you will get a lot of different answers on, as most people have their own preferences as to what works for them. I can tell you my own preference, which would be plain concrete floors, then plywood, both without floor dressing. The reason being is that you want to be able to see you bird's droppings each day and dressing can hind this to various degrees and also, while not common, the re have been cases, with shavings, that birds have ingested some and have had their GI systems blocked up by this. Plain floors are easy to scrape and keep dry as well.

Bella, always glad to have you in a thread .

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Dobato 

Please don't misunderstand what I was asking yesterday , just trying to learn . So at this point it's best to use the Baytril , I am not sure of my birds weights or having anyway to weigh them . As for the anti-fungals it just seems more advantageous to get the fluconozole (sp) since it works systemically rather than one that has limited effects , do you agree ? I wasn't sure yesterday whether to do another flock treatment or do an individual treatment was all . I am most appreciative of yours and Bellas input . There is an old medical adage that goes like this , " when you hear hoof beats look for horses." Plus , I am in information overload to a degree and just trying to sort through all the valuable information that has been provided , so ; please overlook a rhetorical question or two . Thank you both very , very much !!!!!!!


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Addendum : If I needed to add doxycycline , how would one do that using a 500mg cap ? Just an if .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds, I apologise for the information overload yesterday. As usual, Karyn is the voice of sanity around here...she makes sense when she says that since some of your birds have recovered completely using antibiotics, that its most likely that you still have a bacterial issue in your loft. By the way, do you have any pictures of your birds or enclosure? The loft sounds really nice.

Regarding pigeon weights, are they a normal homing kind of pigeons? If it helps, the ferals that I treat usually weight around 250 grams or so when they are sick, maybe 350 grams when they are well.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella ,
Please there is no need to apologize , I appreciate your input , this whole ordeal has been a bit overwhelming is what I should of said . I welcome any input because we can always pick up little pearls of wisdom from every conversation . I learned early on the worst thing is feeling helpless without proper medicines and people such as you and others to guide us neophytes . Thank you for caring enough to share ! I have Modenas , Solid white Homers and Satinettes . It's the Modenas that I have had the most problem with with this illness . Mine vary in sizes . The 3 suspect birds are two Modenas , one is larger than the other and the Homer is not that big of a bird , or the kind I have , they are platznek (sp) . I still would like to know if getting the fluronzodole is a better buy than the Nysatin that has limited value . I am going to do individual treatments , Dobato mentioned adding Doxyclcline with Baytril at times , I have 50mg caps of Doxy and wonder how much of that she would add to the Baytril . I find this all very interesting , makes me wish I was an Avian Vet or a re-habber . I have hookbills also . They seem to be very hardy . My African is my boy , the breeder let me have him when he started eating and he and I bonded during the weaning process . He weaned himself . When I run the water in the sink he still gets excited because he thinks it's feeding time although he is 4 years old now . He is my sweetheart . Have a Conure and a Quaker , the Quaker is a blast , he is a little escape artist . Just always loved birds every since I was a youngster . Forgive my ramblings . Would love to be a Falconeer (sp) now that is cool . Always wanted a barn owl too .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

They were definitely breathing wet again , got the Baytril on board . After 48 hrs if the sounds haven't improved then what ? How much Doxy added to the Baytril ? If that doesn't clear it on to a Nystatin ............... ?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Birds,

Regarding the two antifungals, Nystatin and fluconazole, this is my own take on them. 

Nystatin, although not a systemic antifungal, is safer to use because its not absorbed by the bird's system. So its is useful for guarding against thrush when a bird is very ill and you're treating with antibiotics & other drugs that could otherwise cause the bird to vomit or regress from too much medication. 

What I'm finding personally as I gain more experience with very ill pigeons, is most of them can only really take two strong drugs at a time, and if I try adding a third to cover some additional potential ailment, which you'd think would help, it actually makes things worse. The usual result is vomiting, and sometimes regression & death. So I like Nilstat. It takes care of fungal problems that are caused by antibiotics (ie thrush in crop and Gastro-Intenstianl tract) without putting additional stress on the bird's system.

Fluconazole on the other hand is something I have on hand, but I hesitate to use it because I don't know a lot about it. As far as I know, only some rare-ish fungal infections are systemic, so normally you would not need it. Also, these types of fungal infections are very serious & difficult to treat, so I wouldn't be wanting to be giving fluconazole plus too many other drugs. Its better to take the approach Karyn is suggesting, where you try your best to totally rule out other problems, like a bacterial infection. That way if you move onto fluconazole, you might only need to use it alone or with one other drug instead of a bunch that could make the bird sicker or vomit up all the medication. I don't know for sure that would happen, but its something that concerns me personally..


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> They were definitely breathing wet again , got the Baytril on board . After 48 hrs if the sounds haven't improved then what ? How much Doxy added to the Baytril ? If that doesn't clear it on to a Nystatin ............... ?


Birds, It might be best to stick with the Baytril just for now to figure out if it helps. If it doesn't help after 48 hours at all, and you move onto individually dosing with doxycycline, normally you would use half a capsule ie 25mg per bird (or I would), but if the birds have developed some resistance to doxycycline already, because of the previous treatment with avi-dox in water, the dosage may need to be adjusted upwards. Karyn will be sure to advise you.


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella ,
Thanks for the info on that . I will order the Nystatin then , just to have on hand . Dobato had mentioned in an earlier post about how she had to mix some Doxy in with the Baytril for a bird that wasn't responding to her liking only using the Baytril , I think . Everything you stated helped put things in a better perspective for me anyway . I would be more than happy to get some pictures of my set-up , although I really haven't done a lot to the interior yet . I would like to split the loft in half with Modenas on one side and the Homers on the other , and make T-perches . I am not sure about going so far as to making the widowhood type compartments . I have seen to many birds paired up in mini -compartments and I don't like that . I want my birds to have as much freedom as possible. The Modenas aren't allowed to fly loose , the Homers are . I use milk crates that I cut part of one side down a bit and put the throw away nesting cups in the crate . It really bothers me to see birds all cramped up . I am going to add a skylight soon ; when my back gets better . It's nothing fancy , but it is spacious . I keep my Satinettes in a large 3 compartment coop we built and then we have the hospital and the Intensive care unit in the house . I have a very loving and tolerant wife . :=)


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds, if I do add in Doxycycline with Baytril I use a dose rate of 50mg/kg once a day. Since I use both drugs at once a day dosing, I will dose Baytril in the morning and the Doxycycline at night. You have given two strengths for the Doxycycline you have, mentioning both 500mg and 50mg, so I am unsure of what strength you have on hand. Basically, you will give 5mg for every 100mg of a bird's body weight, once a day, so for example, a 300g bird would receive 15mg of Doxycycline once a day.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> . Dobato had mentioned in an earlier post about how she had to mix some Doxy in with the Baytril for a bird that wasn't responding to her liking only using the Baytril , I think .


Yes, I understand. Baytril and doxycycline can treat quite separate types of problems , and using them together would be a powerful combination. Baytril is usually regarded as the `big gun' antibiotic that treats many of the worst kinds of infections, such as those caused by bad wounds and severe enteritis. I have the human-version of it on hand, but I use it very rarely because if my birds become resistant to Baytril, I've lost my biggest gun. For me, I see it as an antibiotic more for life and death situations, or when I can't get anything else to work.

But Doxycycline,(as well as other members of the tetracycine family of antibiotics, of which doxycycline is a member), will treat some things especially well that Baytril won't, such as Strepococcal, Chlamydia, and some types of ecoli. I've needed to use it when my other antibiotics don't work, and sometimes it works great.



> I would be more than happy to get some pictures of my set-up , although I really haven't done a lot to the interior yet . I would like to split the loft in half with Modenas on one side and the Homers on the other , and make T-perches . I am not sure about going so far as to making the widowhood type compartments . I have seen to many birds paired up in mini -compartments and I don't like that . I want my birds to have as much freedom as possible. The Modenas aren't allowed to fly loose , the Homers are . I use milk crates that I cut part of one side down a bit and put the throw away nesting cups in the crate . It really bothers me to see birds all cramped up . I am going to add a skylight soon ; when my back gets better . It's nothing fancy , but it is spacious . I keep my Satinettes in a large 3 compartment coop we built and then we have the hospital and the Intensive care unit in the house . I have a very loving and tolerant wife . :=)


I feel the same way about giving them freedom; I have the next two upgrades already planned out, I'm just saving up the money for the tools and materials I need. I'd love to have Modena's, what beautiful pigeons they are, huh? Are you're brown and white?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Birds, if I do add in Doxycycline with Baytril I use a dose rate of 50mg/kg once a day. Since I use both drugs at once a day dosing, I will dose Baytril in the morning and the Doxycycline at night. You have given two strengths for the Doxycycline you have, mentioning both 500mg and 50mg, so I am unsure of what strength you have on hand. Basically, you will give 5mg for every 100mg of a bird's body weight, once a day, so for example, a 300g bird would receive 15mg of Doxycycline once a day.
> 
> Karyn


Dear Karyn,

I am wondering, is the dose of Doxycycline lowered when its mixed with baytril, or do you use both at the full recommended dose?

X bella


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

I mistyped the strength the first time ; it is a 50 mg cap . So , how could I measure that out , could I use a syringe and use a [(x) cc's ] to equal a dry dose of the Doxy ? I am going to give the Baytril a go at it first before adding the Doxy . Would you agree ? Does my equation make sense to measure 15mg per 300mg weight ? X for Doxy .


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

[(Doxy) = cc's ] dry .........


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

[(dox)=x (cc's)] dry or is there a better way to get 15 mg out of a 50mg cap.... lol and my math equation


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella ,
They come in an array of color combination's .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> [(dox)=x (cc's)] dry or is there a better way to get 15 mg out of a 50mg cap.... lol and my math equation


Birds, Do you have any syringes there for measuring liquid?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Bella, many of the tetracyclines, kind of like Metronidazole, have numerous suggested dosing times and amounts, with pigeons, many are in the 25-50mg/kg range, to be given once or twice a day. Myself, I most times use 50mg/kg once a day and I do not reduce the dose, as my birds are in good body condition. If a bird were to be be emaciated, and in poor general condition, IMO, you would want to adjust the dose down to the lower end of the range, if combining with another antibiotic.

Birds, what you would do is mix 5 of the 50mg capsules (250mg) into 5mL of pancake syrup, or honey, or Light Karo syrup, stir in well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again and you will have a 50mg/mL Doxycycline suspension (5% suspension). You would dose 0.30cc (third line on a 1cc syringe, the kind without an attached needle, and this is about 6 drops, this should be fine for a bird in the 300-400g area) once a day, 12 hours away from the dose of Baytril (Baytril is to be given at 20mg/kg, once a day, ie; 2mg for each 100g of body weight). Keep in the refrigerator and stir well before any use.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Bella ,
I have syringes . Uhm , I gave the birds there first dose of Baytril of .07cc's was that a correct dose ?


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

typo
their not there ...................


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds said:


> Bella ,
> I have syringes . Uhm , I gave the birds there first dose of Baytril of .07cc's was that a correct dose ?


Birds, the 0.07cc would equal 7mg of Baytril, if you used it full strength from the bottle (10% Baytril), this would be a correct dose for a bird that weighed 350g, or even a bit higher or lower.

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Dobato ,
Would you suggest just going with the Baytril for a day or two , and monitor them for improvement , before adding the Doxy in the regime ? 

Thank You !


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Birds said:


> Dobato ,
> Would you suggest just going with the Baytril for a day or two , and monitor them for improvement , before adding the Doxy in the regime ?
> 
> Thank You !


Birds, this is generally what I do, most times Baytril alone is enough to clear most respiratory infections. Although I self treat the majority of these kind of infections in my birds, if I don't see any improvement in 48h, I almost always get them into the vets for professional assessment. Doing this probably saved the life of one of my favorite hens a while back, as she presented one morning with open mouth, crackly breathing and I isolated her and started her on Baytril. The morning of the second day there was not even a slight improvement, so I took her straight to the vets. Upon close examination he caught the glimpse of something caught in her trachea, she was anesthetized, and he can back with a seed he extracted, although I did examine her throat area myself, I did not see this obstruction, so having good professional backup is a must. By the time we got home she was looking and sounding almost normal, and I mention this story because sometimes we need to get them into a vets when the things we are trying are not working, no amount of meds would have fixed her problem and we were lucky enough it could still be observed with an otoscope looking down her trachea.

Also, make sure you stay on the cleaning and disinfection. I thought I would give you a link to what I use for disinfection. The thing I like about this product is that there is almost zero fumes, so I don't have the concerns, like with bleach and some other products, about them inhaling off gases. The product cost a bit, but does last a long time. I still have more than half of the container I purchased 3 years ago.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-1033/VIRKON-S-10-lbs/Detail.bok

Karyn


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Thank you Dobato ! I guess it's off to the avian vet I go . Thank you for all the time , support and information ! You have gone above and beyond and I appreciate it !


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## Birds (Apr 11, 2011)

Was revisiting symptoms of canker because someone posted that they had a bird vomiting . Saw that an indirect symptom of canker is respiratory illness that responds poorly to respiratory medicines . WOW ! Much to be learned .


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Birds said:


> Was revisiting symptoms of canker because someone posted that they had a bird vomiting . Saw that an indirect symptom of canker is respiratory illness that responds poorly to respiratory medicines . WOW ! Much to be learned .


Hi Birds,

Canker is an especially common problem in Pigeons, but its caused by a type of protozoan parasite, that's why antibiotics won't cure it (Antibiotics cure bacterial problems). Most of us keep metronidazole, ronidazole, and/or spartrix for canker. 

My thoughts about your problems with your birds is that although respiratory illness symptoms can be associated with canker, its unlikely that coughing/respiratory problems would be the main symptom of canker in so many birds , without you having noticed other symptoms like extreme weight loss, huge lesions in their throats, sour crop, and very wet droppings. Canker tends to mostly be seen in a bird's throat as cheesy growths, but it can also hit just about any organ in a birds body. Therefore, if you had a canker outbreak in your loft, you'd more likely to see a range of symptoms & lots of fluffed up, thin birds that die slowly, rather than one uniform symptom like coughing. Just about every feral pigeon I take in has canker nowadays, and none of them cough. When i find them they are nearly dead from starvation and thinness, and the droppings are mostly water with some puddles of diarrhoea.


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