# Just gotta ask ....



## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Anyone venture a guess at the color(s) we'll get from this pairing? Magellan (BlueBar Homer cock) x Skye (Blue Check [?] Homer hen)









Or from Calypso (white Homer cock) x Polaris (Red Pied [?] Roller hen on the right in the 2nd photo below ....btw, that's her daughter on the left)?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It depends*

The blue pair is likely to produce all blues. The blue bar appears to be normal, the other is also blue bar but is grizzled and possibly has sooty making the markings on the wing. Some of the young will be grizzles as well.

The white is a horse of a different color, could be anything. The bird looks to have dark eyes (bull) which is a sign of recessive white. This can hide any color that pigeons have. The hen is a pied ash red bar. The young will tell you what color dad is under the white. If he has colored eyes like orange, then he is probably an ash red grizzle that has moulted to white. In this case, all the young would be grizzled ash reds. 

The birds, especially the cocks, can carry other factors as well and is why you have to pay attention to their offspring to sort out what they are carrying.

Bill


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks, Bill. I understand Sheltie (dog) color genetics but there are relatively few color options involved there. This bird thing is a whole new world and much more complex (not to mention that the "same" color has several names). We, in fact, don't really care what color the babies are .... just thought it would be interesting to compare the "crystal ball" to reality. (I know .... some folks make a whole practice out of genetics and it's not really a "crystal ball", at all.)


jbangelfish said:


> The blue pair is likely to produce all blues. The blue bar appears to be normal, the other is also blue bar but is grizzled and possibly has sooty making the markings on the wing. Some of the young will be grizzles as well.


We are particularly fond of the blue bar w/grizzle (but we'd been told she is "Blue Check"...no?) Having never seen another one quite like her, we're hoping ....



jbangelfish said:


> The white is a horse of a different color, could be anything. The bird looks to have dark eyes (bull) which is a sign of recessive white. This can hide any color that pigeons have. The hen is a pied ash red bar. The young will tell you what color dad is under the white. If he has colored eyes like orange, then he is probably an ash red grizzle that has moulted to white. In this case, all the young would be grizzled ash reds.


 Yes, his eyes are dark ... hah - and here I'd been waiting for the orange to appear. They only have 1 egg .... is 1 enough to tell what Dad's primary color is?

The birds, especially the cocks, can carry other factors as well and is why you have to pay attention to their offspring to sort out what they are carrying.

Bill[/QUOTE]


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Pigeons have many genes*



wolfwood said:


> Thanks, Bill. I understand Sheltie (dog) color genetics but there are relatively few color options involved there. This bird thing is a whole new world and much more complex (not to mention that the "same" color has several names). We, in fact, don't really care what color the babies are .... just thought it would be interesting to compare the "crystal ball" to reality. (I know .... some folks make a whole practice out of genetics and it's not really a "crystal ball", at all.)
> We are particularly fond of the blue bar w/grizzle (but we'd been told she is "Blue Check"...no?) Having never seen another one quite like her, we're hoping ....
> 
> Yes, his eyes are dark ... hah - and here I'd been waiting for the orange to appear. They only have 1 egg .... is 1 enough to tell what Dad's primary color is?
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I would say the blue grizzle is not a check as it should have more black markings in the shield if it were. Grizzle can interfere with this and obscure it to a degree but I'm pretty sure it is not check. It may have what is called false checks from the sooty gene. The babies will tell you as if one of the parents is check, sooner or later you will have a check that is not grizzled and it will be obvious. I don't think you'll have any, just some sooty false checks, which are not as dark or prominent.

The one egg could result in an answer to your question. If you get anything other than ash red, this will be an indicator of what dad is under the white.

Bill


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I think the 1st pic is BB and a Grizzle...You might get a splash of white and maybe BBPied...


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Thank you!!! Skye's description has been officially updated to "Blue Bar Grizzle".

Now - the next question....can you tell at birth what their coloring will be? Or .... like so many other creatures .... do they get their 'real' color when they get their adult feathers?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Some things show early*

Naked or very nearly naked babies usually means they are dilute. Blues and blacks often are pretty dark colored when they hatch and will have normal down. Black feet mean dirty factor and this goes away when the birds are several months old. There are some other markers too but I find the feathers to be the best indicators.

Many birds go through big changes when they moult to adult feather. There are alot of these but are not actual color changes, except that more white feathers often show up. This is not an actual color change, genetically.

Almonds have a tendency to change over time, normally getting darker or having more black as they age.

Ember is one of the oddities, some are blue in the nest and turn red and others do the opposite. It is a gene that is undergoing alot of study.

Bill


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

OK - - - so I take pics as soon as I can and post them here ... 
But it sounds like color at birth may not be color as an adult.

"Dilute" means what?
Is the skin (except, maybe, the feet) always pink?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Dilute is a modifier*

Dilute makes colors lighter, like a half tone copy of the original, in a way. Dilute blue is silver, dilute ash red is ash yellow, dilute brown is khaki. Normal colors are called intense vs their dilute counterparts.

Bill


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

*Thanks*

...for Pij Genetics 101


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

Um...Professor Bill....before I let you go...

Since we're here with the 4 birds anyway ... can you tell me what the "red & White" coloring is called? She, btw, is a Spring '08 daughter of the Spring '07 Pied Ash Red Bar standing next to her ... although, I expect age has no bearing on this.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I'd call it pied*

Many would call it a splash, the color is ash red, so ash red splash or ash red pied. There isn't really a name for this particular marking, it's close to bellneck but has too much color to be a bellneck.

Bill


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## wolfwood (Jan 26, 2009)

jbangelfish said:


> Many would call it a splash, the color is ash red, so ash red splash or ash red pied. There isn't really a name for this particular marking, it's close to bellneck but has too much color to be a bellneck.
> 
> Bill


Thanks. I'll let you go on to your next class, now


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