# What is a fast pigeon?



## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

I have noticed that unless you send your bird to a one loft race and it competes against other birds returning to the same loft then it really isn't a very good competition because the birds could be flying varying distances and returning to different areas. So my question is how do you determine if you have a good pigeon or a great pigeon when you are doing your own trials? Where do you have the selection cutoff for who you keep and breed to and who gets to be cut from the program? As a side note what happens to everyone's culls, how do you get rid of them?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You ask age old questions, that are what pigeon racing is all about. Sure they are not fair, because obviously everyones pigeon return to a different location and from a different distance. But that is the sport and unless all we had were one loft races, then it can be no other way.

As to how do you know when you have a good one. Well, the race results or to a lesser extent, the training results, will tell you.

And as to how does one cull, there are a whole lot of methods. What happens to culls depends on how they were culled. Giving away birds is one way of culling. Another is to sell them Still another is to keep sending them to longer and longer races until one race day, they do not come home. Yet another is to leave them out (open loft) all day and eventually the predators will get them.

Mos of your questioning amounts to how each individual decides he or she wans to do this "pigeon racing thing". There is no one right and correct way. You make your choices and decisions and see if your decisions win out over the other guys choices and decisions.

That way we all don't tie every race day.


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## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

How do you measure your pigeons performance?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Against competition is the best way. A one loft race (as you suggested) is good. But flying against other club members is good also.

You can not measure the performance of your pigeons by eyesign, wing structure, color nor general looks. Although several of those factors can be used in making breeding decisions (many believe).

Personally, I believe that racing with a club is the best way, because in pigeon racing, IMO, it is not just about the pigeons. It is also about the owner of the pigeons and his care taking, breeding decisions, training, feeding, etc, etc.

In my humble opinion, pigeon racing is a partnership of the handler and the pigeon. It is not just all about the pigeon/s. Those that win consistently do not have better pigeons than those they are beating. They just "do it better". They have found what works for them, with theirs. If it was just the pigeons, then a rich guy could buy his way to the top. Been tried and sometimes works but sometimes doesn't.

Start with the best you can obtain on your budget, You do not have to spend big money to get good pigeons. You can if you want and there is nothing wrong with that. After all, it is your money. Read up and ask questions constantly. Then formulate a simple plan. Then actually do what you have planned, without too much "dropping of the ball". Join a club and race. You will do okay and have the time of your life. You will win some and you will lose some. But to me, it ain't about the winning and losing. It is about the pursuit. The challenge. The "chase".

At this time of year, we are all breeding some new little boogers, that we hope will someday be famous and carry us to the promised land of fame and fortune.

But right now they are just little balls of feathers and hopes. Little flying prayers that we hope will turn into little flying miracles. It is a blast. I really can not understand that more people do not participate in it. They just don't know what they are missing.


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

This will be my second year racing. It was a real learning experience last year. When I started I thought it was all about the pigeon, but know a lot better now. There are some really wonderful "pigeon people" who devote themselves to the care and handling of the birds. The condition of some of the birds going to races is spectacular. 

Hugh


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## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

I am still wondering how you measure your pigeons performance, How do you know if you personally are making any progress in the speed of your pigeons, either through genetics or through changing feed or exercise routines? Do you calculate a speed in mph or feet per minute or do you have a set spot you always drop them off at and time them back, where is your consistency in measureing performance? So far everyone just tells me how fun it is, but if you are going to try and make improvements in speed either genetically or environmentally then you have to be able to measure performance, or do you all just hope to get lucky and have a wonder pigeon pop out and win all the races?


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## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

Again to try and clarify, in horse racing everyone knows that if your horse can't run a mile in x amount of time then it probably won't win the race and therefore won't enter. Tracks have records and everyone tries to beat those records. In pigeon racing is there records, are there measurement criteria like my pigeon can fly 70 mph or how do you measure what your pigeon can do and does?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well some strain lines of birds average a slower but steady speed. More of a distance bird. While others fly faster and more of a speed birds. This being done on secltion of breeding. NOW you measure yrads per minute for racing. And you can check your birds even with your training tosses. On how they get home. NOW far as speed A base line speed of 45 miles per hour Is a good TRUE speed base then factered in is tail wind which increases the speed Head wind that decrease the base speed then cross wind which not only decreases speed But increase the race distance by off set distance as it increase the arc in which the bird flys.. Now some people Think they have faster birds PERHAPS but it may be that these birds are not faster BUT smarter birds. That can fly in a more correct flight from point A to point B. there by flying the short course home. And then you have to hve a bird that holds its condition and holds its flight ability Over the race course. The more a bird sits down to drink rest ect The longer it takes to get home. Then you have the leadr follower syndrome Some birds The smarter birds head for home others follow the leaders. Many things way into the birds speed. But when it hits the loft Its home win or loose


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

never right said:


> I am still wondering how you measure your pigeons performance, How do you know if you personally are making any progress in the speed of your pigeons, either through genetics or through changing feed or exercise routines? Do you calculate a speed in mph or feet per minute or do you have a set spot you always drop them off at and time them back, where is your consistency in measureing performance? So far everyone just tells me how fun it is, but if you are going to try and make improvements in speed either genetically or environmentally then you have to be able to measure performance, or do you all just hope to get lucky and have a wonder pigeon pop out and win all the races?


I think the best answer to your question is found during the racing season. When you look at a race result sheet, there is no doubt where they stand. The race sheets can be broken down in a number of ways, but you will see where your bird ranks against the other birds and you will see their speed based in yards per minute. The race sheets record the distance, weather conditions, visibility, wind speed and direction, number of birds, all which play a factor. Over the course of a season or seasons, you can then compare you and your birds' performances to see if you are progressing or regressing. 

It's a long time to wait between racing seasons, though. It's not like you can take your bird to the track and clock him at the quarter pole every week. However, training tosses CAN tell you a thing or two about your birds if you pay attention and keep records.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

You figure in yards per minute, any distance under 100 mi is just training. After that you can figure speed. Go to the AU web site, there you can find the link to see fastest birds.
Dave


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

never right said:


> Again to try and clarify, in horse racing everyone knows that if your horse can't run a mile in x amount of time then it probably won't win the race and therefore won't enter. Tracks have records and everyone tries to beat those records. In pigeon racing is there records, are there measurement criteria like my pigeon can fly 70 mph or how do you measure what your pigeon can do and does?


Both the IF and the AU have speed records my bird just missed out on the IF speed record in the 300 to 350 mile catagory. The record is 2141 yards per minute or 72.9mph my bird made a 2121ypm 72.35mph. But ppl really don't go by those records it's how the bird proforms in comparison to the other birds in the race. Because the speeds change according to the way the winds are blowing and what kind of weather you have. My bird won that 2121ypm race so in my eyes she was the best bird that day. To me I judge how good my bird are doing and which ones are on top form by taking them to the same spot and I know by the times they make (taking into consideration the weather factors) how they are doing compaired to past seasons and how they should fair in the races. That helps me pick out the birds I'm going to fly then how they fair in the races determines their future as either a breeder or a lifer on the flying team.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Crazy Pete said:


> You figure in yards per minute, any distance under 100 mi is just training. After that you can figure speed. Go to the AU web site, there you can find the link to see fastest birds.
> Dave


I'm pretty sure for the AU the distance has to be over 75 miles to be considered for national honors. Because we have one club in our combine that is in the AU the Staten Island club and some of their members are too short they are only 73 miles in the 100 mile race when I fly 122 miles but we are in the process of making a new station so that they would be over 75 miles so they can be eligable for AU honors.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

never right said:


> I am still wondering how you measure your pigeons performance, How do you know if you personally are making any progress in the speed of your pigeons, either through genetics or through changing feed or exercise routines? Do you calculate a speed in mph or feet per minute or do you have a set spot you always drop them off at and time them back, where is your consistency in measureing performance? So far everyone just tells me how fun it is, but if you are going to try and make improvements in speed either genetically or environmentally then you have to be able to measure performance, or do you all just hope to get lucky and have a wonder pigeon pop out and win all the races?


I measure success by the race results. A few things for me are how many birds I have in the top ten percent and how often. How many birds did I fly to get the amount in the top ten. It has nothing to do with speed at all. The longer the race the more important it is. Each bird is on a grading system and I can look through and find my best birds right away at the end of the year. Combine and concourse results are even higher graded. Because of flying against more birds.


If your bird does not fly 75 miles at is not a race. The results will get disqualified by the AU.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You can not compare horse racing and pigeon racing.

Horses go in the same direction and do not have the hazards of having to deal with predatory birds, telephone lines, dove hunters shooting at them, etc, etc. But just like in horse racing where there are horses ha excell in longer distances and those the excell in shorter distance. And also horses the excell on hard surfaces and those that do better in mud. Pigeons also can excell in different distances. A bird that wins every 200 miles race it is entered in, may never wind a four hundred mile race. Some pigeons can win in really bad weather only, and some can only win in really nice weather.

As alluded to above, the fastest pigeon does not always win. The pigeon with the capability of actually flying faster than any other pigeon in the whole world, may not win a race against a pigeon that knows the way home better or is smarter about several factors, such as landmarks, not stopping for water, or how to lose a predator bird on his butt. The shortest distace between two locations is indeed a straight line. A bird that flys two hundred miles in a straight line at 40 miles and hour, will get home quicker that a bird that flys two hundred miles in a zig zag or "L" shaped homing path.

I have heard tell of pigeons so into flying home fast, that they fly right by their home loft and just keep going for a lot of miles, before they figure it out. Then they have to turn around. That can happen especially with birds taken on too short a training toss, and especially with young birds. Pigeons love to fly and sometimes they love it so much, they pass home. Humans can do the same thing also. Ever be driving and miss your exit because you were in "automaic mode"? Just cruising along without thinking? Happens to me a lot.

But then again, I ain't the brighest light bulb on the Christmas tree.


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## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

well, it seems like a bad idea IMO to base your progress or performance on something like the race where everyone else is always changing, granted weather and other uncontrollable factors can't be controlled but saying you are successful if you are in the top ten percent isn't really telling you if you have improved or not. It only tells you how you are doing compared to everyone else, you might be breeding slower and slower pigeons and not realize because maybe one of the best breeders has found a new passion in life or had a rough year and suddenly you are moving up compared to everyone else even though your pigeons are slowing down. So if you have selection criteria for selecting pigeons to breed from, what is the cut off for different distances in yards per minute (YPM)? For example, 100 mile, 200 mile, 300 mile and 400 mile?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Some people have speed birds short distance birds that don't go past 250, I like my Houbens good out to 500. I don't think they are slowing down, weather plays a big roll in how fast they fly, I have a lot of 500 and 600 mi day birds. I think most pigeon racers have a program on the PC that tells you how you did last yr this yr and in the race. We don't really leave that much to chance.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

You are not making much sense. I do understand the concept you are alluding to, but it is flawed IMO. In your concept, one should eventually go from pigeons that now fly a 100 miles at 1500 ypm, to pigeons that fly 100 miles at 44,000 ypm, given enough time for breeding the best to the best, over centuries.

That has already been done and pigeons are not going to get any faster. At least not a whole lot faster. No matter what you do.

For instance. If a human can jump 8 feet high in the Olympics, does that mean if we only allow winning high jumpers to wed and have babies with other winning high jumpers. Then in 2000 years, there will be humans that can jump one mile high, without anything other than just muscles and technique?

No.


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## never right (Feb 12, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> You are not making much sense. I do understand the concept you are alluding to, but it is flawed IMO. In your concept, one should eventually go from pigeons that now fly a 100 miles at 1500 ypm, to pigeons that fly 100 miles at 44,000 ypm, given enough time for breeding the best to the best, over centuries.
> 
> That has already been done and pigeons are not going to get any faster. At least not a whole lot faster. No matter what you do.
> 
> ...


I am sorry that this isn't making any sense to you, I am not trying to breed humans that can jump a mile or pigeons that can fly 44,000 ypm. I am only trying to establish a selection criteria for how fast a pigeon should be able to fly. I am not an expert on genetics, in fact the more I learn on the subject the dumber I feel, but I do know that as long as there is genetic variation in a species/population and you are selecting for one trait (ie. speed or stamina) then there is still progress to be made and a need for selection. If all the pigeons that are in a population, (the race world, your loft, my loft however you define your population) if all these pigeons flew at 2000 ypm and there was no variation and there hadn't been for several generations then I would agree with you that pigeons are not going to get any faster and we have maxed out there speed. But I don't believe that we have reached a threshold where pigeons can't go any faster and I don't think anyone else who is still breeding and selecting pigeons based on their performance believes that either. Or why would you be breeding them?


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Speed records are always being broken and as long as we think we can brake another, well we just have to try.
Dave


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Talking about pigeon speeds--you did not mention if flying into head wind--with tail wind--cross winds. One speed record helded by my friend is 85 MPH for a 500 mile race. Well I think it was really 453 miles. 2493 YPM


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

So are pigeons really getting faster and faster? Or just breaking records by chance as time goes on?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

cotdt said:


> So are pigeons really getting faster and faster? Or just breaking records by chance as time goes on?


Breaking the records I think is more of a thing of chance. Because most ppl aren't breeding for the fast races because the real fast races are few and far between. I have a few pairs that I know their babies will clock good in those real fast races the few races in my club that have had speeds of over 70mph since I've been racing I've won. But I do think that birds now do fly faster then a bird say in the 70's would with the same weather conditions. My dad has been winning races since the 70's and I've looked through all his diploma's and it seams that over time the speeds in normal races have gotten higher. But thats just what I see from his diplomas I'm not sure if it's the same for all.


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## Kenneth Flippen (Sep 5, 2009)

*maybe this will help*

as far as judging your pigeons on which to keep and which to cull keep what does good for you only keep birds you enjoy/like it makes the sport much more fun you have to enjoy the birds when I first started a club member told every time you race your birds there are 3 races:

1. race to your loft the most important
2. club results
3. combine results

the race to your loft is a one loft race all birds are facing the same conditions on the course

club results most of the time conditions very close except for a few miles

combine anything could happen change in wheather can vary greatly big differences in distance

how fast should a pigeon fly? depends on the conditions the only way to get an idea is to look at the winning bird every week

I've been told speed fly with all they got they got till they get home or fall out trying

distance birds pace themselves and will come to the top on long races

if you've already got birds keep what does best for you first birds to your loft if not try to get birds from the top guy in your club or neighboring combine. once you've figured out your best try some one loft races see how they do.

this ain't the only way just my way of thinking


Kenneth Flippen


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## Freebird loft (Jul 17, 2009)

Kenneth Flippen said:


> as far as judging your pigeons on which to keep and which to cull keep what does good for you only keep birds you enjoy/like it makes the sport much more fun you have to enjoy the birds when I first started a club member told every time you race your birds there are 3 races:
> 
> 1. race to your loft the most important
> 2. club results
> ...


This is probably the best answer of all. One of my mentors only selects youngbirds by how they come to his loft, this tells him his best birds of the young bird season. The club/combine results tell him how he did as the handler for the year.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I really do not think race birds have increased over all speed very much over the past fifty years. Base line speed was at 45 miles per hour Now some may go up to fifty miles per hour THEN the rest is tail wins and how the bird flys the coarse. Workman set a record back in the 70s I believe 103 miles per hour It had to be tail wind. Family lines of birds have changed Birds size have changed as wieght goes The idea of lighter bones in the birds was used back in the 80s I did handle some very good/great birds That had very little wieght but looked the same size as most Because of bone structure And was told they could average 60 mile per hour in most races I just feel slight speeds have increased but not much. A loft breeds and raises the type of birds they need for the rces they race. We in the U SA race different around the clock and such where european countries keep pretty much the same stations year after year making it easyer to breed the needed bird types PLUS The best speed birds were developed by breeding for the shorter races THOSE birds need to be the smarter bird as they have less time to figure where the loft is. So they must fly a more direct path unlike a distance where time can still be on there side. Steven vanbreeman bred bred for 2 years to redevelop his birds Based off old line birds so old line birds could still handle todays races The good birds Allways excell. Thats just a hand full No matter 1955 or 2010


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Never Right I think I understand what your asking for. If you want to measure your birds performance for breeding or culling then you will have to have set up a system to accurately gage their progress. I think you will need to make sure you have a electronic clock set up and do your training tosses out to 50 miles in all 4 directions (over a week period so birds are fresh and in top form) under similar weather conditions...This should give you a good "baseline" from which you can compare your birds results at the beginning of your training. Then repeat this process whenever you want to "evaluate" your teams progress. Of coarse this leans in favor of the sprint birds (short toss)that may not have the stamina to keep up with a "steady" long distance bird. So you will have to race with your club to measure your over all progress.


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## kevin b (May 14, 2010)

Not sure if birds are faster than before, I do think they are better managed now than ever before with nutrition and health (though we have gone overboard on this) being much more to the fore.
"Never right" I dont think you can judge your birds within themselves, every time they fly to your loft from whatever distance they will encounter a different set of circumstances.
Its like a game of snooker or pool no game will ever be the same, compititon is the only way to tell if your birds are getting better and I do take your point about top men having a bad season ect, but as some of the posts above say its the best yardstick we have.

Kevin


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