# I've Asked Everywhere but Here



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I realized that I have asked every where except here! I was wondering if any of you fly the family of Spanjaard Janssens?


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/newsletter-archives/spanjaards.htm

for those who want to know what you are talking about.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My family is not Spanjards, but is strong in Janssen blood. My number 1 foundation hen's four grandparents are out of the Janssens loft via Ganus. She is paired with a Vic Miller bird mostly Janssen. My other foundation cock is Klak x Calia Janssen. They are my big 3 as far as foundation. 
Most of the Janssen blood has been diluted as has mine. I can still say I have one "pure" Janssen that has not been diluted. It is fun looking at her pedigree. I think at one time I went back about 12 generations. She or her offspring breed me a 200 - 250 mile winner every year.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> My family is not Spanjards, but is strong in Janssen blood. My number 1 foundation hen's four grandparents are out of the Janssens loft via Ganus. She is paired with a Vic Miller bird mostly Janssen. My other foundation cock is Klak x Calia Janssen. They are my big 3 as far as foundation.
> Most of the Janssen blood has been diluted as has mine. I can still say I have one "pure" Janssen that has not been diluted. It is fun looking at her pedigree. I think at one time I went back about 12 generations. She or her offspring breed me a 200 - 250 mile winner every year.


A buddy of mine who has quite a few pigeons, a lot of breeding pairs more than you and I put together I get very good pigeons from him every year and you can trace a lot of my good stuff back to two of his hens. He has like 6 or 7 spanjaards and out of all the pigeons he bred from, raised, and flew, those 6 or 7 spanjaards bred the most race winners for him and champion bird in old birds and young birds. I had a youngster from that stuff that flew like a champ till I lost him in a smash he was a cross, just looking to see who has some would like to get my hands on some myself.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

My bird Kahuna was from one of those imported Janssen families the Calia Janssens that made a mark like the Spanjards. You cannot beat those first families that were founded in North America. Kahuna moved to Florida this year to retire and make babies for Ace/Mark. You might send Silvio a pm. Not even sure if he is still around, but his webpage is still up. I think I would hit that buddy up again. 
Best place to get birds is from a guy that has an established family that wins. Think too many guys chase names and paper. It the guy is still winning with the same birds, they must be good.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

http://www.hillfamilyloft.com/resources/Doo+1401.jpg

here is the link to my old Janssen Hen. Have a few more wins in her lineage since I updated the pedigree.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I've contacted every known person with spanjaards cheapest opportunity has been $500 and that was after a price cut! Was hoping to find a little guy like me or you that's done well with the family and isn't into charging ridiculous amounts for unproven pigeons.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Funny thing is that the name is probably what you are paying for. Like any other line of birds, not everyone is successful with the line. You might be better off finding a guy with a good family of birds that win on a regular basis and getting a handful of late hatches. Or better yet young birds so you can test them out and see if they cut the mustard. $500 in my opinion is way too much to spend on a bird. The pedigree I showed you before was off two Ganus birds that were purchased for $2000 each. She was a gift from my mentor. In my opinion second generation birds are the ticket. I would not sell a bird for $500 on name alone. It would have to breed a winner or win a race to be of value.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I agree with Randy on this one. $500 is way too much for a pigeon . I think the real value of a bird is what you can sell it for if it's not a good breeder or racer and that is around $5.00 if your lucky. 

If you read the article written by Silvio, he said himself that out of all the spanjarrds he got he only kept one pair to breed from and I bet he paid big money for the birds and only one good breeding pair, not good odds if you ask me.

I would think the best way to start to grow your loft is if you could fine a good to great fancier who would sell you a round of eggs off his birds and raise they up yourself. This way your not buying paper and after you race these you can select on performance alone.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

First To Hatch said:


> *A buddy of mine* who has quite a few pigeons, a lot of breeding pairs more than you and I put together I get very good pigeons from him every year and you can trace a lot of my good stuff back to two of his hens. *He has like 6 or 7 spanjaards and out of all the pigeons he bred from, raised, and flew, those 6 or 7 spanjaards bred the most race winners for him and champion bird in old birds and young birds.* I had a youngster from that stuff that flew like a champ till I lost him in a smash he was a cross, just looking to see who has some would like to get my hands on some myself.


*Don't buy any birds for a name!* If you want these birds just keep working on this guy untill he will agree to getting you some young off from these birds.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

I'll be a bit of a contrarian here. I think $500 for a bird CAN be worth it. Sure, you could go the route you guys are suggesting and you might get lucky. And maybe that route is in fact necessary for many of us. But we could also spin our wheels and use up a lot of money and time doing that $50 at a time.

A man has spent decades selecting, refining, testing an inbred family. Is that worth nothing? 

Suppose you have $2,000 to spend on four birds from Silvio which presumably he would hand select for you as matched pairs. You can count on those birds being packed with the genetics you are expecting to get, not some random jar of mixed marbles. Odds are pretty good that one of those birds, maybe two, will be very very good and you could continue to line breed around that. Then - what - you've paid $2k for a great bird or two. Maybe that's still too steep for some of you/us. But good grief, give credit where credit is due - in this case credit can come in the form of $500.

I don't think, in this case, you are buying a name. You are buying a (more) predictable package of genetics in the form of a bird.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Funny thing is that the name is probably what you are paying for. Like any other line of birds, not everyone is successful with the line. You might be better off finding a guy with a good family of birds that win on a regular basis and getting a handful of late hatches. Or better yet young birds so you can test them out and see if they cut the mustard. *$500 in my opinion is way too much to spend on a bird.* The pedigree I showed you before was off two *Ganus birds that were purchased for $2000 each.* She was a gift from my mentor. In my opinion second generation birds are the ticket. I would not sell a bird for $500 on name alone. It would have to breed a winner or win a race to be of value.


Those are contradicting statements. Your mentor paid $4,000 for a pair of birds that produced something which you consider special. So $500 may be too much for YOU to spend on a bird, but in reality you don't think it's too much for someone else to spend.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Funny thing is that the name is probably what you are paying for. Like any other line of birds, not everyone is successful with the line. You might be better off finding a guy with a good family of birds that win on a regular basis and getting a handful of late hatches. Or better yet young birds so you can test them out and see if they cut the mustard. $500 in my opinion is way too much to spend on a bird. The pedigree I showed you before was off two Ganus birds that were purchased for $2000 each. She was a gift from my mentor. In my opinion second generation birds are the ticket. I would not sell a bird for $500 on name alone. It would have to breed a winner or win a race to be of value.


They are very very hard to find and I don't blame these guys for asking so much originally guys are charging $1,000 and I was given a 50% off deal but $500 is still too much for me, personally. I have had quite a lot of luck with a great grand daughter to those 4 imported Janssens from the brothers.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I believe that I have good pigeons, I believe everyone has good pigeons, a lot of people just aren't good handlers and when you give young birds to a good handler they fly great I've only been flying for three years but I've seen it happen time and time again.

I am looking for these pigeons based on *name alone* if all I wanted was good pigeons I don't need to go very far, however I feel that these birds have the potantial to be *great* if I got my hands on some then I know this guy will trade me with his spanjaards after I did. So you see this is all a master plan to get two separate lines of spanjaards and cross them. If I had the money like that to spend I'd buy directs, but like you Randy hoping to get grandchildren to race and test out before I stock them.


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

1st to hatch if u want to trade for his spanjaard and u already have a proven family of very good birds. show him how good his spanjaard crosses into ur family and what his spanjaard can do after its crossed into urs.. Then he will trade.. That is how i trade with other pigeon fancier as i am not made of money.. That is what i do when i am looking for new blood... It does take a little bit of cunning on you though unless he trust u and u trust him.. just a thought...


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kastle Loft said:


> Those are contradicting statements. Your mentor paid $4,000 for a pair of birds that produced something which you consider special. So $500 may be too much for YOU to spend on a bird, but in reality you don't think it's too much for someone else to spend.


I was very lucky to get a bird of value from my mentor. You are very right about contradicting myself. If not for his generosity, I would not have the bird or let alone the money to purchase her.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Kastle Loft said:


> I'll be a bit of a contrarian here. I think $500 for a bird CAN be worth it. Sure, you could go the route you guys are suggesting and you might get lucky. And maybe that route is in fact necessary for many of us. But we could also spin our wheels and use up a lot of money and time doing that $50 at a time.
> 
> A man has spent decades selecting, refining, testing an inbred family. Is that worth nothing?
> 
> ...


Your right that a person can start higher up on the road to success but just like Randy and First to Hatch most people can't spend that kind of money on a bird, so they need to find other ways to get quality for less. I got a Jones Boys HVR cross at auction for $70 and after talking to Ray Jones to find a mate I had to look else were because he wanted $750 for 1 hen. Even some inbred from him wouldn't guarantee me success. 

If you have the money that fine every hobby cost something and in 5 years of racing I would think I 've spent about $2000 in buying pigeons but it was a little at a time. If I would have gone the $500 route I would have got 2 pairs. Still better than the $2000 route, which I would have got 1 bird from Ganus . Then what ? You still need a different family to cross with your inbred birds or you will slowly destroy those and your stay at the top will be short lived. We all know someone like that don't we. Most great champions race winning birds from Europe and the US are crosses so our goal to raise champion birds we would need 2 families and cross them to each other and hope for the best. Still its all a process that takes time.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

http://www.thedogplace.org/GENETICS/Reading-Pedigrees_BJA-133.asp. Here's a link that V-John shared. Interesting thoughts .


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

raftree3 said:


> http://www.thedogplace.org/GENETICS/Reading-Pedigrees_BJA-133.asp. Here's a link that V-John shared. Interesting thoughts .


That would work with dogs. I try to stay away from the ped that says, the sire is a direct son of ?? 14 times 1st, but has no info on the sire. Now if it says the sire is sibling to multiple diploma winners, and breeder of winners. but was raised for stock and you trust the breeder then maybe.
Dave

Now if you just like to get a nice looking ped I have a deal for you.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

That article was very interesting and while my knowledge in pigeons is limited, this is a pretty telling quote here. "Even if a dog and ***** are outstanding representatives, it matters not unless they are genetically compatible."

I'm of the thinking that even if you breed two winners (pigeons) you still may not get what you are looking for. I'm sure we all know of examples both ways, but that quote was interesting.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

V-John said:


> That article was very interesting and while my knowledge in pigeons is limited, this is a pretty telling quote here. "Even if a dog and ***** are outstanding representatives, it matters not unless they are genetically compatible."
> 
> I'm of the thinking that even if you breed two winners (pigeons) you still may not get what you are looking for. I'm sure we all know of examples both ways, but that quote was interesting.


That quote holds a lot of weight since many pigeons that are excellent racers go on to become poor or mediocre breeders. Its all about a pair clicking together and producing better birds. Essentially, the young birds you produce should be better than the breeders, if this isn't happening, you need to change something in your breeding program.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Revolution Lofts said:


> That quote holds a lot of weight since many pigeons that are excellent racers go on to become poor or mediocre breeders. Its all about a pair clicking together and producing better birds. Essentially, the young birds you produce should be better than the breeders, if this isn't happening, you need to change something in your breeding program.


I think most people will agree that no matter how good your breeders are or how many races a pigeon won the odds of producing all good birds is very low in most cases. I have a pair that produce really good blue check cock racers but when that pair has a BB baby I usually loose it. The mysteries of pigeon breeding. Ad S in his interview with Jim Jenner has a short saying about breeding pigeons and it goes something like this: get rid of the bad ones, sell the good ones, keep the supers.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I run statistics on my birds to see what percentage of birds win, top 10 and top 10%. I think it was Warren that threw out the 10% are good 90% bad. I use it as a tool to see if I am getting better every year or regressing when it comes to breeding. Need to compare this years with last.


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## dvtlegend (Oct 20, 2007)

I have 2 Spanjaard blooded birds in my loft. I used to have quite a bit but they got stolen. My spanjaards from the lines of 058 blood of Silvio loft which originally owned by jojos loft. I purchased my bird directly from Fred bruzese himself. The two I have left are out of Spanjaard crosses to Hofkens blood of the olde van de polle and vanhove. Yes, it does cost quite a bit for this blood in general as they aren't easily found and those that do have them do charge quite a bit. Hope you can see the image I have attached. The bird in general is very big and muscular. Takes two hands to hold him and his half sibling as he is very tall and sleek as well. About 4 weeks ago there was an inbred of spanjaard 34 on sale on ipigeon, it was a very nice bird. 












Heres the link for the bird offered. http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAPViewItem.asp?ID=110656

heres the picture of the bird









my birds are related to this one. there are similarities but mine has hofkens in them which makes them bigger.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I think it is normal for them to be larger because of the inbreeding we were discussing it at the club how some families like Janssens get bigger and Devriendts get smaller with more inbreeding. I wish you didn't show me that link with the grandson of 058 I have been kicking myself for not bidding. As I thought if find cheaper but that was a joke! Haha


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## dvtlegend (Oct 20, 2007)

LOL, that bird was cheap. I was so tempted to buy it but because I have been slowly letting all my birds go I held back. It is a very nice bird indeed and you don't come about them anymore. My pair that I acquired from Fred Bruzese @ the time was costly. But they have bred me very nice birds and do well with crossings to any blood.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

First To Hatch said:


> I think it is normal for them to be larger because of the inbreeding we were discussing it at the club how some families like Janssens get bigger and Devriendts get smaller with more inbreeding. I wish you didn't show me that link with the grandson of 058 I have been kicking myself for not bidding. As I thought if find cheaper but that was a joke! Haha


Well you can see how to reach him. Maybe he has others.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

gbhman said:


> You could try contacting Mike Bator from Buffalo NY... I'm not sure if he still has the Spanjaards, but you could call and find out. I can pm you a phone number if you are interested. Let me know.


I talked to Mile Bator before making this post, he wanted 400$ for his cheapest pairing and offered me birds for 200$ with no pedigree most I'll ever spend on an unpedigreed bird is $40


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