# READ ME: Box Of Pigeons left in the trash NH MA



## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Thought some of you might like to know that a cardboard box full of banded roller pigeons was left to die on the side of the road. They were thrown out with all the trash that is dumped there on a quiet road. The location was Poplar Hill Road in Pelham NH That location borders Dracut MA, Methuen MA and Salem NH. The police called me because we are known here in town as the "pigeon" people. We have racers and rollers and they always call us if they find banded birds. I have to say that it made me sick when I arrived at the scene. There was 20 birds, 2 were dead and the rest are complete skin and bones. I have no idea how long ago they were dumped. It was pouring rain out so we were able to catch them. Most were too weak to run anyway. Even in their condition, they are nice looking birds. Various colors-solid black, black white flight, grizzel, reds, etc. I guess they were unwanted by their owner but I just can't see leaving them for a slow death in a box. Why would someone do that? HOW could someone do that??? I have them here at my loft in a pen I have for sick or found birds. Not the ideal setup for 20 birds but it is better than where they were. I put some straw for them to lay down on and of course gave them food and water. They probably think I'm a nut in there talking to them LOL They seemed to understand they were being rescued. I have had no luck in my search for their previous owner. Maybe some of you here can help me. I have no idea what I am going to do if I even find out who did it???? I just feel like this person should be exposed...it was an awful thing to do. Maybe the roller club they belong to should know about what happenes to unwanted birds?? I know you people here are pigeon lovers and you will probable feel as I do about those poor pigeons. I wanted to cry when I saw them. They looked so pathetic! All wet, confused, starving and scared...it sickened me. 

18 were banded, 2 not banded and 2 dead (I did not write down their band numbers-should have). 

Here are the band numbers of the live ones:
FLRC 2005 530
FLRC 2005 525
FLRC 2005 501
FLRC 2005 532
FLRC 2005 531
FLRC 2004 369
FLRC 2004 329
FLRC 2004 408 BAND #2 JOHN 585 335 8515 
FLRC 2004 404 BAND #2 JOHN 585 335 8515
FLRC 2003 0209
FLRC 2003 0276
NBRC 2002 U0964
NBRC 2002 U0966
NBRC 2002 U0950
BPNPA 96 917 OLD METAL BAND
DHS ROLLERS 2005 520 585 7421 1115

I wasn't sure where to post this...hope this was the right place??? Should it have went in found pigeons???

Thank you in advance for your help.
Patti


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

A similar thing happened here last winter...Fantails were dumped in Mt Hood National Forest. Luckily for them a Forest Ranger found them....they were huddled together on the ground and in the snow...totally bewildered. Of the 36, 18 survived.
It makes me so mad, I feel like the top of my head could explode.
Bless you for taking them in. I hope the person that did this is found.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I obviously can't be of any help from over here, I wish I could, but I just wanted to say thank goodness you have them now and at least they stand a chance.

Last year I found 12 banded birds, all with their necks wrung thrown over the fence into our local park. It is unbelievable that anyone who at some time wanted these birds couldn't care enough about them to at least give them to a rescue place or vets so they could be found a safe place. Their circumstances could have altered drastically that they had to let them go , but this...... so sad,

Good luck with them.

Janet


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

OOOHHH the things this makes me wish I could do to the person who did this!!!!

Deep breath.

I have to remind myself that other powers that be will take care of him/her in due time. . .and that what goes around, comes around.

I'm so sorry for these pigeons. Thank God you have them and are able to give them the life they deserve. I will hope and pray for their speedy recovery, physical and emotional!


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

ohhh, patti - thank god the birdlings found their way to you. it made me so angry to read that, and a little misty , too. having a house pigeon, the idea of leaving a bird in a box to be thrown out like so much garbage just crushes me. 

trooper and i will be sending good thoughts your way for the little sweeties. and very foul bad thoughts to the you-know-what that did this to them. so sick, i can only hope they get 'theirs' someday soon. 

and i think if the bands are traceable, you should follow up. i would - with a vengeance. maybe call a local news show, and have an investigator run with the story? i would definitely make it public knowledge. 

do keep us posted on the goings on. wish i was closer....


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

*Thanks for your support!*

Thanks to all of you! I am trying to trace the bands. I have tried "google" for FLRC and DHS Rollers with no hits at all. I think Finger Lakes Roller Club is one but can't find any info at all about the club. I called and left a voice mail for the 2 bands that have phone numbers. Both numbers are NY area codes. I don't think either of them drove from NY to dump the birds here in NH but they might know who they gave the birds to. I have yet to contact the NBRC but I'm in the process of doing that.

Patti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

How unbelievably cruel, please do update us in regards to how the survivors are doing, and be sure to follow this link first:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11265


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## Lilito54 (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi Patti, I share the feelings of other people here. I am so glad the birds were found before they died of starvation and that somebody caring, like you, has them now. It also makes me very angry to think that a human being can be so cruel to let helpless pigeons slowly suffer, and getting away with this. As somebody else said, this atrocity should be made public, hopefully with pictures of the birds. Somebody may recognize the birds and expose the criminal.


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## nancthiery (Jun 24, 2008)

That is a horrible thing for some one to do, bless you loving heart.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

whitefeathers4u said:


> Thought some of you might like to know that a cardboard box full of banded roller pigeons was left to die on the side of the road. They were thrown out with all the trash that is dumped there on a quiet road. The location was Poplar Hill Road in Pelham NH That location borders Dracut MA, Methuen MA and Salem NH. The police called me because we are known here in town as the "pigeon" people. We have racers and rollers and they always call us if they find banded birds. I have to say that it made me sick when I arrived at the scene. There was 20 birds, 2 were dead and the rest are complete skin and bones. I have no idea how long ago they were dumped. It was pouring rain out so we were able to catch them. Most were too weak to run anyway. Even in their condition, they are nice looking birds. Various colors-solid black, black white flight, grizzel, reds, etc. I guess they were unwanted by their owner but I just can't see leaving them for a slow death in a box. Why would someone do that? HOW could someone do that??? I have them here at my loft in a pen I have for sick or found birds. Not the ideal setup for 20 birds but it is better than where they were. I put some straw for them to lay down on and of course gave them food and water. They probably think I'm a nut in there talking to them LOL They seemed to understand they were being rescued. I have had no luck in my search for their previous owner. Maybe some of you here can help me. I have no idea what I am going to do if I even find out who did it???? I just feel like this person should be exposed...it was an awful thing to do. Maybe the roller club they belong to should know about what happenes to unwanted birds?? I know you people here are pigeon lovers and you will probable feel as I do about those poor pigeons. I wanted to cry when I saw them. They looked so pathetic! All wet, confused, starving and scared...it sickened me.
> 
> 18 were banded, 2 not banded and 2 dead (I did not write down their band numbers-should have).
> 
> ...


 YOU HAVE THE PHONE NUMBER John, 585-3358515 and 585-7421115 That will get you to the owners Seeems charges could be filed on dumping these birds alive.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

re lee said:


> YOU HAVE THE PHONE NUMBER John, 585-3358515 and 585-7421115 That will get you to the owners Seeems charges could be filed on dumping these birds alive.


RE LEE, you know it's not that simple. ESPECIALLY given the years on the bands. Those birds might have been banded by "John", but there's certainly no way to prove that HE dumped the birds and IF HE DID, he would never admit it and he'll just say he gave them away last year, or two years ago.......etc.
If it were as simple as, "he banded them, he's responsible" *I* would give him a call AND a piece of my mind. 
With todays technology, the detectives and what not, could probably figure out where the box came from, where the birds came from and who dumped them, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to put in the man-power/man-hours trying to figure it out.
Believe me, if I could think of a way to find the person who did this and make them pay, I would, but sadly, at the end of the day, we'll probably never know who did this horrible thing.
People shove birds in shipping boxes one on top of another to die and it's KNOWN who did it and something COULD be done about it, but, again, sadly, no one wanted to "cause waves" with the PO.
This is a much harder case to figure out.
I agree on calling the newspapers, TV stations, make a big stink, but at the end of the day, everyone will say how sad it is that this happened and then go on about their business. 
IMO, the WHOLE pigeon fancier/sport needs some policing.......but THAT will never happen either.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

I did call and leave messages on both of the numbers. They are NY numbers. I doubt that someone would drive from NY to NH to dump birds. Why make the drive to NH when they could dump them in NY? They probably sold or gave them to someone here in NH or MA. I talked to the police there at the scene and they said you have to have proof of who did it. They could just say someone stole them and dumped them. If I get a name I will call the police and give them the information. You can count on that. The birds seem fine, they are resting and all did eat.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitefeathers4u said:


> I did call and leave messages on both of the numbers. They are NY numbers. I doubt that someone would drive from NY to NH to dump birds. Why make the drive to NH when they could dump them in NY? They probably sold or gave them to someone here in NH or MA. I talked to the police there at the scene and they said you have to have proof of who did it. They could just say someone stole them and dumped them. If I get a name I will call the police and give them the information. You can count on that. The birds seem fine, they are resting and all did eat.


I'm glad you are persuing this and I DO wish that we could even think that it might be possible to hold someone accountable, but I'm afraid that will never happen.
Right now, the outcome for the birds, despite the ass that owned them before, it most important. 
Whoever did this WILL pay one day. We'll probably never know when or how, but I believe that you reap what you sow.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

I agree with you Renee...if it was a box of puppies or kittens it would be a lot different. I did talk to the NBRC and the owner of 3 of the ones banded NBRC is the same as one of the phone numbers on the bands. I left a message but he never called me back...I am sure these are all breeders because of their age...especially the 1996 one!!!


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

"Whoever did this WILL pay one day. We'll probably never know when or how, but I believe that you reap what you sow"

I do agree with you on that!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitefeathers4u said:


> I agree with you Renee...if it was a box of puppies or kittens it would be a lot different. I did talk to the NBRC and the owner of 3 of the ones banded NBRC is the same as one of the phone numbers on the bands. I left a message but he never called me back...I am sure these are all breeders because of their age...especially the 1996 one!!!


I expect they just gave you the name of the person who purchased the bands. Here in the states, no one keeps up with a pigeon once it's sold or given to someone other than the original owner. They're sold at auctions and what not all the time and most don't have a clue who got the bird. 
Just last week a got a call from a young girl in Kentucky who had a bird that I sold at an auction down in NC last year. I knew who got the bird, but I have no idea how it wound up in Kentucky. 
She's got the bird now and I sent her a hen for a mate for it. Now a year later, I've changed MY records to reflect who actually has the bird. If it got loose and someone found it, I would get the call and it would be up to me to figure out who actually owns the bird. Not many fanciers will go to the trouble of keeping up with all of thier birds where abouts. I try, but it's pretty much impossible to do sometimes.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

*update!*

One of the numbers I called from the bands "John" returned my call. It was his wife and John died in 2006. She has no idea how the bird got to NH. After her husband died she gave the birds to various people in NY...none of which she can recall their last names and doesn't even have their phone numbers anyway. So...that turned out to be a dead end. No pun intended...she was a very nice lady.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitefeathers4u said:


> One of the numbers I called from the bands "John" returned my call. It was his wife and John died in 2006. She has no idea how the bird got to NH. After her husband died she gave the birds to various people in NY...none of which she can recall their last names and doesn't even have their phone numbers anyway. So...that turned out to be a dead end. No pun intended...she was a very nice lady.


Well, it was nice of her to call you back anyway. Any chance of getting pictures of these sweet birds? What's going to happen to them once they're well and on their feet (wings) again?


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Yes, it was nice of her to call me.

I will try and take some pictures tomorrow or the next day. Not much sun here expected here for the next few days but I will try and take some pictures.

I guess I will keep them. We are in the process of building a third loft so we will have more room soon. I do have rollers myself, although I didn't let them out this year. We have way too many hawks and I can't stand to see them get attacked. It has nothing to do with the rollers "rolling" the hawks hang on the outside of the aviary just waiting for their tasty meal. They didn't get any meals this year from me...


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Lovebirds said:


> RE LEE, you know it's not that simple. ESPECIALLY given the years on the bands. Those birds might have been banded by "John", but there's certainly no way to prove that HE dumped the birds and IF HE DID, he would never admit it and he'll just say he gave them away last year, or two years ago.......etc.
> If it were as simple as, "he banded them, he's responsible" *I* would give him a call AND a piece of my mind.
> With todays technology, the detectives and what not, could probably figure out where the box came from, where the birds came from and who dumped them, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to put in the man-power/man-hours trying to figure it out.
> Believe me, if I could think of a way to find the person who did this and make them pay, I would, but sadly, at the end of the day, we'll probably never know who did this horrible thing.
> ...


 You know i was taking notice that there was a phone number that could be called So i posted it. AS in the past people have posted number and never new it was a phone number. Then far as the shipped birds. YES I still feel why blamew it on the post office. That is a whole different matter. ANd then far as the whole pigeon keeping group of people. You know its not just people who keep pigeons that some need looked at. BUT another thing is most do do right AND to many do gooders ruin things for everyone Even the ones that are good in the sport. The public looks at the whole not the one. AND pigeons are not liked by most people It is a hobby with little public like. I would never cause waves that weakens this sport. bUT yes this case is wrong It would have been better for those birds to have been destroyed rather then been left in a box on a side of a road to just die.So there are cases where one can pusue and others where it has to be handled in the right manner.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

*Update on owner of these birds*

In case any of you want to know the outcome...
I posted on a roller board as well last night and I copied the response posts here. 

"Whitewings, It's me ML in Dracut again. The guy you and your husband brought the lost roller to a few months ago!
First off, I am disgusted to my core and will name the dirty, sick, bastard that did this at the end of this string.

I rode with this creep from Mass/NH to Upstate NY to pick up over 75 birds that belonged to a farmer in upstate that had recently passed away due to a farm accident(John Weathersbee). These birds were to be split between this jerk and myself....they are Dave Szabatura and Ron Kumro birds given to us directly from Dave. When we got back he only wanted to let me have one yearling kit and no breeders. I helped him settle, train and win our region with the holdovers that we picked up. He still wouldn't share the breeders with me as I refused to help him after that. He left our club and disappeared after that. I am disgusted and pissed! Lesson learned! It's ok to help a newbie, but take a long look at their character before you share birds with them! His name is RXXX and he lives in Pelham, NH. 
please call me, (978 337-XXX)or(978 957-XXXX)I will take them off your hands and see if I can revive some of them. They are parents, brothers and sisters to my birds! This sick jerk would do something like, this based on me stopping him from releasing birds he didn't want into the wild before! Dave will be here next weekend to Judge our region! Thanks and I'm sorry people like this exist. Otis"

And the next post from Dave:

"This disgusts me beyond belief.
As M L reported above, a good friend of mine, John Wetherbee, died in a tragic farm truck accident. I was mentoring John for a couple years, as he wanted to work with my birds. After John's death, his wife asked me to come and pick up the birds and find a good home for them. These were all good quality birds out of my best pairs, and also birds that John had bred out of them. My good friend ML had asked me for some birds earlier in the year because he wanted to switch over to my birds in his loft. This RXXX also wanted some of my birds, and he lived very close to M. I told M and R that if they drove out to meet me half way, I would bring these birds to them to SHARE. Since M is a good friend of mine, I wanted him to have a couple particular birds from the lot that were special to me. When the 3 of us met, I made clear to R that these couple particular birds were for M, and the rest they could split up any way that they wish, as long as they shared the birds back and forth and worked the birds together. M tried working with this R, but he started showing his true colors, and when I found out that the couple birds that I wanted M to have, were being kept at R's house, I called R numerous times, described the birds and their bands, and he insisted that he did not have those particular birds. He then preceded to not allow M at his lofts. Then the surprise came when I showed up at R's house for one of their flys, when he did not know that I was coming. I noticed one of the birds in his loft that was suppose to go to M, that he swore he did not have. I then took R aside, informed him that the bird that he claimed he did not have, was sitting there on his perch, and that I wanted him to give that bird back to M. He said that bird is going no where, so I told him that he either would give that bird back to M, or I would be through with him from this point on. I can not stand bold face liars. He told me he would not, so we all left his house, never to return.

M would remember better than I, but I think this happened about a year and a half ago, and none of us have heard from him since.

Those bands numbers listed above are all birds that were in R's possesion. I can think of no reason that these birds would be left in a card board box by the side of the road, unless R put them there on purpose. R had bred many babies off of those birds, but none of those birds were in the box, only birds that he received from M and I, from the late John Wetherbee. 

This man R purports to be a religious man, yet he would do something like this? Never would I have ever believed that anyone that raised pigeons, could ever do such a thing. I hope the authorities fine him, and throw the book at him. I am furious, and deeply saddened that these birds would be treated in this manner."


So...I will be giving the birds to M this morning. I think that is the right thing to do??? I did not see any listing for the man "R" in Pelham NH. Although, I am going to give all the information to the police.

Patti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, well, well..............the plot thickens. I surely hope that now that someone has a name to go with, that this sick SOB will be punished for what he did to those birds. 
Just goes to show you, no matter how hopeless it may seem (meaning me here) that anything will ever be done about these guys that think they can treat their birds any way they want to, sometimes, persistence pays off. YOU my dear are to be commended for your efforts. 
Please keep us posted on anything else you may find out. And thank you again for saving these birds. It really brings me to tears when I think of what they were going through untill someone came along that cared. 
BRAVO!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Good work patti....


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## Dezirrae (Oct 6, 2007)

Bless you Patti!!! I was so angry and sick when I read your initial post -- SOOOOO grateful and thankful that you persisted in traking the bands. Thank goodness you were successful. Actually the chances of this happening are amazingly slim... which makes me doubly glad they found their way to you  I hope they all recover from their ordeal - and I hope you and Mark are able to stay in touch.


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

THIS IS JUST AWFUL!!!!!!!how the hell can anyone do this to any living crature,it just makes me so damned angry!


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

*Pictures of Box Pigeons!*

Thanks to all of your for your support. I am determined to follow this through to the end and see that the person who did this has to answer for his actions.

The birds are still here, M will be over later on to get them. In the mean time I did take some pictures and I even figured out how to make an album LOL I uploaded pictures before to my account or so I thought. It does show that I have pictures but where is my album??? LOL Sorry...I am new to all this. I will try to post the pictures in this thread if I can't figure it out, I do have the album. They were not to thrilled with me sticking the camera in the cage along with my head to take their picture. They all kind of bunched up together but here they are:
































The red one on the left in the last picture looks like he is packed with food!

Some of the ones in the back don't look that great...look a little puffy to me :-( Mark said he will take good care of them and put them on some "Pro something" stuff. 

I will post again with any newest updates. 

Patti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Very pretty birds. They look MUCH better than I imagined. I think they'll be just fine. Thanks again.


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

They really are beautiful birds. It sounds like Mark is the right person to give them a good permanent home. Thank Heaven someone cared enough to come to their aid & that they knew enough to contact you, Patti!! What a miracle it is for these little guys. That person who disposed of them sounds like a real 'class' act - & I don't mean high class.


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## tuxedobaby (Sep 9, 2008)

what beautiful birds! i am glad they are on the right track now,i am still upset as to how someone could have done this,i wish you all the best with them and god bless you for taking care of these little guys!


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2008)

thats terrible what that guy did to these birds and I hope he pays for it , he could of at least tried to find these birds homes as Im pretty sure it would have been easy to give away rollers of that caliber  some days it seems like the whole world is going to hell doesnt it poor birds


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

patti - 

if you need me to write letters or something to the police department to light the proverbial fire under them, i would be MORE than happy to. that sick [fill in your own most hateful word] deserves nothing less than to be publicly chastised and then fined. and that, in my opinion would be FAR too lenient. 

what the hell is wrong with some people???? anything you need, or anything mark might need, whatever, give me a yell. i'm half tempted to drive out there from ohio, find the jerk and punch him right in the mouth. grrrrrrr.....

keep on this. call the local news out there. i bet they'll give it some attention. 

snuggle the babies for me and my flock here. can't wait to see how this all turns out.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2008)

> i'm half tempted to drive out there from ohio, find the jerk and punch him right in the mouth. grrrrrrr.....


 Lizz I would pay to see that lol


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## lizz (May 3, 2008)

*oooo, don't tempt me!!! 
*
should i start taking up a collection for gas money? 

i'll find a teeny tiny little spiked collar for trooper and he can come too.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2008)

lol I will spot you $40 if you can promise me it will be on the news for all to see hehe


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

That is too funny Lizz and Thank you-I will keep you in mind if I need any letters written.

M did not come by to get the birds today. That made me a little concerned-I waited all day and he called a little while ago and said he got caught up visiting his grand children. He will be by in the morning to get them. He will be bringing all the information on the birds and all the info he has on the guy R (Still could not find any listing for him in Pelham) Then I am going to call the animal control officer here in town. I am going to give her all the information, including the posts that both Mark and David made about this guy. She knows me very well, she calls us whenever they find a bird. In fact she brought one to our house a couple of weeks ago. 

I will follow up on this and even talk to Mark and David about each writting a letter so that it is signed by them. In fact, I am going to ask Mark if he wants to drive to the guy's house tomorrow and confront him or should I let the police do that? I will think on that and discuss that with Mark tomorrow. I don't know if the guy is some kind of nut...well actually I know he is.

The birds are doing great! They look 100% better in just 24 hours. They looked so bad when we got them because they were soaking wet from the heavy rain. They are thin though, much thinner than our birds are. Their breast bones are sticking out although you wouldn't know it from the pictures! They are eating TONS of food. I hope that is a good thing? 

We did take a second drive today down that road to make sure there wasn't any missed birds or additional boxes. We went the entire lenght of the road and looked on both sides. It was pouring rain again but we did it anyway. We saw a lot of trash (That is another thing I just HATE) but no evidence of any other birds or boxes. The box that they were left in did not have much poop in it so I am thinking they were not in that box long at all. I think luck was on their side that they were found when they were. The 2 unlucky ones that were dead I think just got crushed from the other birds. It was a small box with a lot of birds in it. What a way to go huh? :-( 

I wanted to mention that I found this board in September 2007 when I had the blind baby pigeon. I looked here for advise on feeding her, which I did find-Thank you. I am still doing the "dunking" method where she gobbles her food. Nope...she never learned to eat on her own. She does drink on her own though. I started writting her story a few weeks ago but have not completed it. I wanted to post it here along with some pictures. I will try to finish it soon. She is a sweet bird...I don't want to ruin the story but...she has even been to Wal-Mart shopping with me LOL

Have a good night everyone!
Patti


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I for one look forward to hearing how this turns out with the guy and the birds. I hope to goodness that someone, somewhere, will hold him accountable. 
Also, look forward to hearing about the blind baby. I actually posted in that thread yesterday, but you probably missed it. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=321073&postcount=28


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I'm so sorry these beautiful birds had such a traumatic experience. Patti, they are VERY lucky you were there to intervene on their behalf!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wonderful save, Patti! Sorry to be late in chiming in here, but I have also been following the posts on the "other" board where I am also a member.

Bless you for making a happy ending for these birds! Also wanted to add that you must have the "magic touch" with the roller pigeon community .. I have NEVER seen any of them open up like they did with you. Well done!

Terry


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Wonderful save, Patti! Sorry to be late in chiming in here, but I have also been following the posts on the "other" board where I am also a member.
> 
> Bless you for making a happy ending for these birds! Also wanted to add that you must have the "magic touch" with the roller pigeon community .. I have NEVER seen any of them open up like they did with you. Well done!
> 
> Terry


Hi Terry,

So you are a member there as well! Then you probably noticed that my original post was a little different from the post here. I know it is pretty much a "man's" board and I didn't think there would be too many "bleeding hearts" or members that talk to their birds and kiss them when they are babies like I do LOL. I am surprised too that so many replied in concern for the birds. It was a good surprise. I see that the name of the man was edited out. Sould I do that here as well? 

I did post at the NBRC site as well and there was not 1 reply although I think the post was read 30 times.

Patti


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

whitefeathers4u said:


> I see that the name of the man was edited out. Sould I do that here as well?
> 
> Patti


That would be the politically correct thing to do. Thanks for asking.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Patti, I sure hope everything continues to work out for these beautiful little pigeons and many thanks to you for your loving heart and concern.

I know I try to believe that people are not this cruel though I know they are - we see it too often on this forum and other places - but do you suppose there is any chance this guy had them in a box to take to someone, maybe in the bed of a pickup, and somehow they slid out of the truck and he didn't know where they landed. I sincerely hope it was something like this and not a deliberate act of cruelty.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Hi Maggie,

You know I would like to think that they fell out of his truck but no I don't think that happened. The location was on a isolated part of a road where everyone dumps their trash. There is a big pile of trash off the road and into the woods a couple of feet. Why people dump their trash there when there is a town dump? I have no idea...perhaps it is closer for them to dump it there or they see all the other trash and say "why not". The box was right there with all the trash. Most importantly, the box was small...and I mean small...they would have been on top of one another...that is why those 2 were dead at the scene. I saw them, they were crushed...sorry if the details bother some people but it is the truth. No kind hearted person would have put them in a box that small. The only comforting thought is I don't believe they were in that box long. There was not much poop in it-I mean there wasn't a lot like they had been there for a week. Or...would they not be pooping if they weren't eating? It makes sense but I'm not sure on that....all my birds eat on a regular basis. 

They were picked up this morning by Mark. He said they were in pretty bad shape. Some better than others. Sadly, one did die this morning before he got here. They were all alive at 8 am but by 10 am one did die. I was very upset because I wondered if I should have started them on some meds? They didn't look sick, just thin. I just gave them water, a lot of food and gave them some space to chill out.

The whole thing is very sad :-( I just hope something is done to whom ever is responsible. I did leave a voice mail with the animal control officer today. She never returned my call but she is off today. I will call again in the morning. I have all the information for her (contact, address, phone number, proof of ownership, etc)

Thank you to everyone for your support and concern!

Patti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Photos of stolen birds on site, for evidence*

Patti,

When I read the post about the pigeon RXXX had in his possession, which did not belong to him, it would be good or would have been good if there existed a photo of the bird on the premises of RXXX. This visual evidence could then be used to show he had stolen property, since he refused to release the bird, and would keep him from being able to dispose of the "evidence" of the actual living bird. 

If the owner: 

(1) had sold the pigeon (in absentia) for a large sum of money (and then in turn purchased a pigeon from the first buyer for a large sum of money, with written, dated, contracts of sale, thus establishing a high nominal value for the bird, without either party having to forego much money), 

(2) before going to RXXX's place to determine if he had the sold bird in his possession, then

(3) went to RXXX's place and photographed the pigeon which was held in wrongful possession, without legal ownership,

(4) and then was refused possession of the pigeon,

he could have RXXX arrested for theft and wrongful possession, and liable for any subsequent damage to the pigeon.

RXXX would have no grounds to claim libel or slander. His name could be spelled out clearly (although prudence would suggest that a person of limited means not do so, since even innocent people can incur court costs and legal defense expenses). But the threat of exposure to his fellow worshippers and community can be a heavy weapon, and might also save the lives of more pigeons and other animals. 

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Patti,

Saw your latest post.

Maybe make some photos of the box, and the dead birds, for a visual head count of the number of birds that were in the box.

Might be useful evidence later on.

By evidence, I don't necessarily recommend that this be taken to court and the whole nine yards. Life is too short to be able to correct every wrong. And it is not my job (nor that of others) to be a policeman and watchman and re-habber for each and every miscreant on the face of the earth. I do not wish to be the slave of someone who can make me angry any time he so chooses. But sometimes I do wish to remedy things.

Visual evidence can be very compelling when telling a story or relating the facts. Can also save a lot of words and effort.

Larry


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Well Larry I am not even sure how to reply to that other than I didn't list his name because although we all believe it was him that dumped the birds I guess there is a chance that he gave the birds to someone else awhile ago and THEY dumped the birds??? I have no idea but I am hoping that the police will question him and get the truth. 
Patti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Too many birds in the box?

Here in Cologne, a few years ago the city shut down the local small animal and pigeon Sunday morning market for a couple of years, because some of the pigeon sellers were putting too many birds in the cages. 

(This happened before I started going there for supplies, after rescuing Pidgiepoo in 2004). It took place every Sunday except the first Sunday of the month, and not on certain holidays or during the hot days of school vacation. How long it was shut down, I am not certain.

The person who told me about this was one of the sellers. He said they could put only 11 or so pigeons in a certain size cage. Theoretically the cage could provide standing room easily for double or triple the number, though without room to turn around in. One of the pigeons acted a bit aggressive towards another, with some head thrusts). He thought the restriction was a bit unreasonable, since he came in a small car which would hold only so many cages, and the birds were in the box for only from 8 A.M. to noon at most, plus the half hour or so it took him to drive there. And he did have an interest in maintaining his birds in top shape (I presume).

At the end of that morning's session, he opened the cage, and the pigeons flew directly in the correct direction of Hürth, about ten kilometers away. They didn't need to align themselves with any streets, but went diagonally across the row of apartment buildings in front of them. The direction he came from was south, on a street running north to south, and they flew southeast. They were out of sight in about three seconds.

It was a wonderful sight to behold, and the birds seemed in top shape. So, I had no opinion for or against the restrictions that were now in place. (Others sold some pigeons that day, some fancy and some show pigeons, and some racers, but not he).

Larry

Also, Patti, about not using the person's name:

I am for assuming the best in a person unless forced to do otherwise (_in theory,_ to be honest; not always _in practice_. I love my wife, but some days it doesn't seem to show). Unless you have personally and directly seen a person do something, you have trouble accusing them. And even in that case ... were you hallucinating? dreaming? having an illusion? seeing a mirage? seeing the twin double of the person supposedly identified? Life is full of twists and turns, and plays us for the fool if we allow it.

So, yes, I agree with you.

Wishing you and your rescues all the best. Hope they get over any misery they have experienced, soon. 

Larry


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

*Investigation under way!*

Thank you Larry!

I wanted to let all of you know that I did speak with the animal officer here in depth about the entire incident. She has all the contact information and will be making an investigation. She will question him in depth and will look in his lofts to see what is going on with any birds there. Yes-it was an act of animal cruelty and it will be followed through. They will be contacting me to give me updates.....


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for the update, I'm glad you are able to make progress. Keep up the good work.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Patti

I expect it will be almost impossible to prove it was this person, however, I hope this does get his attention and will make him think twice before he does it again.

I'm terribly sorry to read another died. If the person who put them in the box cared so little for their precious lives then they didn't care how they were treated when they had them. They probably suffered from hunger many days.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I just caught up with this post - and I will never, ever, understand how a person could be so cruel. Unfortunately the laws against animal cruelty in NH are lax to say the least. Prosecution usually needs a little push from the public that has compassion. And sometimes that doesn't always work - like in the current case of the woman (I won't say her name, but I grew up with her as a child and know 1st hand how vicious she is) that beat the crap out of her Bernese Mountain Dog ( with witness's) and she still has the dog in her possession. This same person had 2 prior convictions for beating 2 horses and another dog! 
If I can be of any assistance in writing for show of support for these birds, let me know. Thank God they were found, but its horrible that it happened in the first place.
St. Francis will have his number!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I just caught up with this post - and I will never, ever, understand how a person could be so cruel. Unfortunately the laws against animal cruelty in NH are lax to say the least. Prosecution usually needs a little push from the public that has compassion. And sometimes that doesn't always work - like in the current case of the woman (I won't say her name, but I grew up with her as a child and know 1st hand how vicious she is) that beat the crap out of her Bernese Mountain Dog ( with witness's) and she still has the dog in her possession. This same person had 2 prior convictions for beating 2 horses and another dog!
> If I can be of any assistance in writing for show of support for these birds, let me know. Thank God they were found, but its horrible that it happened in the first place.
> St. Francis will have his number!


why won't you say her name?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Spirit Wings,

One reason for not saying in the PT forum is that nowadays when some people file (often frivolous) lawsuits for libel and slander, they name as defendants everyone they can think of, which might include the kitchen sink, the PT forums, the person listing the name on the site, her cats and dogs, whatever. It appears ridiculous at times. But all of those named might have to have legal representation.

A drunk could file a lawsuit, nobody take him seriously, nobody have legal representation, and nobody in court to refute the drunks' statements, and lose the case as a result. I am not picking on drunks necessarily, since many if not most of us have been in that condition one time or another; I am simply saying that one could not be necessarily rational and in their right mind, yet till win a case.

If someone took me to court here in Germany, I might not know half of what was going on (because of the technical terms or bureaucratise, or _Amtdeutch_). And I certainly couldn't afford an attorney.

If someone e-mails you or PMs you with the info, then they probably cannot be held to be publicly defaming the reputation of the person discussed. However, I am not offering legal advice or legal opinion, since I am not licensed to practice law. Just offering a private opinion.

We don't *know* who is telling the truth, because we were not there to observe what did or didn't happen. I can believe what people say in these forums, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I can personally prove everything I read, and pass it on to others with impunity. 

That is one of the nice things about the PT forums: you can state your opinions and ideas on pigeon subjects (within the restrictions set by the forum rules), be shown to be either correct or hideously wrong.

*The nicest thing* is that you meet very nice people here.

*The second nicest thing* is that you can have incorrect and false ideas and opinions corrected, and walk away with *having learned something*. 

I feel a lot of gratitude that this web-site exists.

Picked up a baby pigeon today, not near a nest site: healthy but seriously underweight: not being fed by parents (if they are still alive). Cannot yet fly.

Weighed 139 grams (a little over four ounces) at 11:00 A.M. Think it is a female. Small. Weighed an additional 70 grams (more than two ounces) this evening at 19:00 after feeding, a total of 209 grams.

When I rescued my male Wieteke in 2005, he had less feather development than this one, yet he weighed much more. 

So, much thanks to pigeon-life.net and all the good folks here!

Larry


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I didn't know if it was legal 
Here's the link -
http://www.pet-abuse.com/profiles/14175
It doesn't mention here that she still has the dog, but according to the Porstmouth Herald, she still has it and people have complained as to "WHY" she is allowed to keep it! I believe I read that the police stated that the dog was "personal property" 
And I don't recall reading anything about the NHSPCA getting involved!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> I didn't know if it was legal
> Here's the link -
> http://www.pet-abuse.com/profiles/14175
> It doesn't mention here that she still has the dog, but according to the Porstmouth Herald, she still has it and people have complained as to "WHY" she is allowed to keep it! I believe I read that the police stated that the dog was "personal property"
> And I don't recall reading anything about the NHSPCA getting involved!


I see.....I assume her name was public when she was convicted with the other animals...that would be public knowledge..thanks for the link....what a witch!


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Thanks Everybody! I am trying. I showed her all the paper work I had-the band list of the birds, the ones that died and I showed her the posts that were made on the other forum. I explained about the small box, etc. She was off on Friday when it happened and didn't realize what a horribale situation it was. She just though they were some lost birds someone found. So I am glad she came over. She was here for about an hour. I am anxious to find out what happened when she confronted him. I will post as soon as I find out anything. I too think that it will be a hard thing to prove but maybe it will make him think about what he did?

As far as that lady lady that abused her dog...I just hope she never had any kids! 

And Larry- I do agree with you on this "We don't know who is telling the truth, because we were not there to observe what did or didn't happen. I can believe what people say in these forums, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I can personally prove everything I read, and pass it on to others with impunity. " 
It's true, you don't really know people who post but I can assure you that everything I said was the truth  

Have a great night everyone!
Patti


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello whitefeathers4u,
I saw your post about this on the roller pigeon board and just noticed it was on here too. I'm very glad that the police knew to contact you in this situation, and that you were able to nurse the birds back to health. It made me so sick to read about the situation with the dump 

I just wanted to let you know - not that there is any question about it - that the man who ended up with the birds (Mark) will definitely provide a good home for them. I am in the NBRC and visited his loft during the World Cup competition this Spring. He takes excellent care of his birds, and is a very kind person. Be assured, you have done the right thing to give them to him.

Anyway - thank you for caring enough to take these birds in, nurse them back to health, and find them a wonderful home.


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Hi Karen,

Nice to meet you! Yes, I know they will have a good home. I actually met Mark before I found these rollers. One of his rollers came to our loft this past spring and we brought it to his house. I am thinking that I may have actually talked to you at that time! The band was a custom band and the NBRC didn't have the owner's contact name but gave me a few names of members that lived close by. I spoke with a woman in Lowell and she said she was new to the club...was that you? If so, what a small world! I actually found the owner (Mark) by posting on that other board. 

I know there is a competition at his house this weekend. Are you attending? I have rollers but I don't fly them. We have too many hawks. I do fly my racers but they are much faster and are able to outfly the hawks. I really just bought my rollers because I liked the way they looked, not to compete with them. Anyway, I tend to overfeed my birds LOL or so I am told. They are all "fat and happy". People have seen my birds and comment on how huge they are. Speaking of huge...I LOVE your Modena..they are my favorite breed! I went to a show in Des Moines a few years ago and there was a lot of Modenas being shown. I really enjoyed seeing them. I would love to have some but I don't have the room.

BTW-As far as any updates of the "Box Pigeons" I have yet to hear from the police. I left another message yesterday. Although they did drop off another bird Tuesday night. I wasn't home so they left it with a neighbor. It was another roller from that box. I don't know where it was found. Mark let me keep it and I am trying to nurse it back. It is really thin but is eating. I have a picture of it to post here but I have been having trouble posting pictures and even viewing other pictures that are posted. Not sure why. 

Patti


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

whitefeathers4u said:


> Hi Karen,
> 
> Nice to meet you! Yes, I know they will have a good home. I actually met Mark before I found these rollers. One of his rollers came to our loft this past spring and we brought it to his house. I am thinking that I may have actually talked to you at that time! The band was a custom band and the NBRC didn't have the owner's contact name but gave me a few names of members that lived close by. I spoke with a woman in Lowell and she said she was new to the club...was that you? If so, what a small world! I actually found the owner (Mark) by posting on that other board.
> 
> ...


Hi Patti,
Yes, I believe we did talk on the phone - small world indeed! Apologies for not being much help at that time - I couldn't find my NBRC member directory and by the time I got the new one I figured you had already taken care of it. 

I'm attending the Sunday portion of the Fall Fly, but Mark is flying his kits on Saturday so I can't make it to his place this time. (fly was supposed to be last weekend but got rained out) I only live about 3 miles from there though. 

I got my first rollers this summer, and I'm learning a lot about training them. The feed really is the key - if they eat too much they are impossible to control. My pet pigeons (like Petey the Modena, lol) are very much fat & happy so it took some getting used to managing the feed with the rollers. 

Do you ever go to the December show at Sturbridge, MA? There's always a big Modena section. And show rollers too - so many breeds represented, I'd highly recommend going if you have not been. 

Anyway - nice "meeting" you and please keep us posted on the box pigeons. So glad the majority of them ended up in a good place, thanks to you!


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## whitefeathers4u (Aug 28, 2007)

Hi Karen,

Well it IS a small world after all! And we are pretty much neighbors at that! I did get a reply pretty quick back then on the roller I found and Mark was glad I returned it to him. It just showed up at our loft one day with our racers.

I have been to the pigeon show in Sturbridge. I did enjoy it very much but I went a week after I went to the big show in Iowa. There were over 6000 birds at that show! A lot of nice Modena's and a lot of nice other birds as well. We actually went for 3 days! You have to like pigeons a lot to spend 3 days looking at them LOL If you ever want someone to go with you to the show in Sturbridge, just let me know. I am always up for a pigeon show.

We were thinking over going over tomorrow and watching Mark's rollers but we are in the middle of building another loft. It depends on how much we get done on that in the morning.

Still no word from the animal control...I am getting a little frustrated with that. I would have thought she would have gotten back to me by now. I have left enough messages. But as soon as I hear anything I will post.

Patti


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

LOL seems like you two know each other now, ummm if you want some legal advise i can ask my cousin who's a lawyer here. (Canada, but I'm sure most of the stuff would be the same lol) I've never been to a show, never been to a race. I have show pigeons, rollers, and homers, but i just release my homers from 30km, 60km, 100km, 140km and just like a hobby i just wait to see which ones come back, haven't lost many lol. And my rollers i just let them out to fly once in a while. And the show pigeons i only have because they look nice lol. Well someone mentioned something about a show so i thought i might just ask here, does a show usually have people with pigeons for sale? Like do they bring there pigeons there to the show that they are selling? Cause i have no intention of going anywhere to get pigeons since i'm pretty lazy after my football season started lol. Thanks


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