# "beeped" Off!!



## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I was in my last exam today and guess who showed up at my house!! THE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURSES!!! Some of my neighbors logged a formal conplain against MY birds!!! They talked to my sister and dad (like I said I was at my exam) and they said the comlainers said they were noisy, messy, and smelly! My dad and sister said it wasn't true and showed them my birds and avairy to prove that wasn't true. I just got a call from them not that long ago saying that the complate was actually about the size of my feral flock but when they noticed I had "wildlife in captivity" the situation changed!! The lady said I had to "dispose" of my birds, I told her if I released them they would all die (no ifs, and, or buts). She told me stop feeding my feral flock. And yakdeeda. 
I just go off the phone with the Ranger again. THEY WONT GIVE ME MY LIECENCE!!!!! They said that because I only take in pigeons that I'm more than likely wont be accepted!! Then she went on to do the old "wildlife in captivity" again. How in the world am I suppose to keep them if they wont give me my liecince!? I asked her that and she said that pigeons are under the pest list, so I said then they're not wildlife so I can keep them. "NO, they're still wildlife but pestes." she said. SHE"S DOUBLE TALKING ME!!!
I asked who the complatents were and she said that they went though the city police and they didn't give the name. I HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW!! I've had these birds around for *4* years now and they only start complaining now. I have a very good idea who it is but I'm not going to act on it till I know 100%.
The funny thing is too I just picked up a pigeon from across town, so piss on them! 
Hilary Dawn


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

What a sorry state this world is in!!!!!!!!! I can just imagine (not I guess I can't) how you feel.........Raise HELL with em' girl. It does sound like double talk to me too.....wish there was something we could do.............people are starving, can't pay bills, can't get a job, on and on and on.......and they want to worry about a few pigeons.........I can see why you BLEEPED off. I would be infuriated.........


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Hilary,

I'm so sorry this has happened. It never ceases to amaze me how petty people can be and have no remorse for the trouble they cause for people who have and love birds and animals.

Try to make sure you are well versed in all the relevant, laws, codes, and ordinances regarding birds and animals for the area in which you live. This will help assure that nobody gets away with bending the rules a bit too far.

Please let us know how this all ends up, and again, I'm so sorry you are having to go through this.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hilary, I am truly sorry. You've been through so much lately with the birds being sick and exams and now this. The only advice I can give you is to do as Terry advised about learning all the laws and regulations. Get all your facts together before you talk to them again. When you do meet with them again stay calm, and talk politely. You don't want to make them so angry with you that they won't listen to reason no matter if they're wrong. Then present your facts and let them know where they're wrong.

I just don't get how they say you can't get your license because of this.

I know it makes you mad; it does me too, but, sometimes we have to kiss up to get what we want and you want to keep as low profile as possible with these folks.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I agree with Maggie.

I was thinking, do pigeon fanciers need a licence in Canada to keep their birds? You might want to consider calling your ferals rescues "fancy" pigeons, like homers.


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*I am sorry you have to deal with this*

I know someone in the next city had a complaint on his kept pigeons in his back yard. He was told he had to get rid of all of them but 4. He had 10 pigeons. Good luck.

Andi


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

I'm having a hard time getting onto my city's bylaws but I did find THIS!!:
http://www.gnb.ca/0078/fw/nw/animalpests.asp
They lied to me and I was RIGHT!! Pigeons are considered PESTS! The lady was suppose to call me back but she didn't. *tisk**tisk* These people are driving crazy when we had Keys for no more than A DAY we went into the DNR and asked it was okay to have pigeons and they said "YES." Frigen backstabbers! When they came here they probrably thought they were dealing with a teenager that knew nothing about what she was doing, well I'm going to give them a run for their money!!
I'll keep you all up to date with this crap, they should be calling back on Monday (and no school)!
Hilary Dawn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Might be worth a trip to city hall or the equivalent for you. Just civil service behind the counter, no one taking names of who is asking for copies of what law. They will give print outs of ordinances on request--least here anyway. Sometimes even though considered 'wildlife' they may also fall into a category along w/chickens or the like where they have to be housed so many feet from any dwelling where humans live. Think this is the kind of thing you want to know. There may also be a limit on how many can be housed in certain zones. I don't think that they can just block you from getting a license, but they may be thinking that if they cite you with a violation that goes into a formal record that you then wouldn't be able to get one w/something of this kind on your record. I don't know how many all together you have, but if only a few, might be worth just bringing them indoors until you get your facts together, I don't think they can get you for having indoor pets. Then once you see what it is that they are talking about in terms of ordinances that they are probably thinking of citing you for, you can hopefully correct it to be in compliance and get them off your back.

Sounds like a major drag, and also seems like these folks have no intention of 
playing 'ball' w/you, so you'll have to be smarter and faster than they are. Could be w/the scare of bird flu looming in the distance, they are just taking a hardball stance on general principle.

Sorry you are having to go through all of this, Hillary.

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

This week end I'm going to be writing up all my birds' stories and paying my friend the mayor a visit. 
fp~the lady did mention the "so many feet away" thing only because I trapped her in just about everyway possible.lol 
The bird flu scare is high right now here. So I think this has almost everything to do with it. As for bring them indoors I can't, I have now room anywhere for them. But this summer my sister and I were talking about getting seperate room; but it could be too late by then. 
This is one big kerfufal and I'm not about to play "ball" with them either. I'm on my best behaivor but I mean business. I know that I'm going to be actually going down to DNR on Monday cause I hate talking on the phone (I profer looking some one face to face, eye to eye ).
Well 12am it's time for bed, talk to you all later.
Hilary Dawn


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just make sure to get the 'printed' terms of the ordinance as spelled out by the overseeing government. This way, no one can 'blow smoke' up the proverbial regarding what is and is not 'law'. Think of it this way, if you have to do some cages for now and correct later, it is better than giving them the upper hand in the situation. Negotiate w/your sister....maybe that extra room could be used temporarily until you fix the 'footage' problem. Just make sure that is the only thing they are 'hanging' their 'hat' on.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you have to go through this, Hilary.
I am so fed up with the human stupidity and not only that, but they have nothing better to do but complain about everything and everybody.

Reti


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Ok yesterday I talked to my boss and she said that they couldn't take my birds with out a warrent, AND they have to get an avain vet up here (nearest good one it Monteal~6-7hr drive away) to prove neglect. HA! So they would have the do this neglect procedure though the SPCA, where I work, so HA HA to them! She said that I should still go to City Hall to get a specialized permit tho. Everyone at work said they were going to help me keep my birds. I've also got a quick hide-away barn if they do come to get them. My boss also said that she knew a lady that raised pigeons for meat that actually lived in town who didn't have a permit and she didn't get busted. 
Well everyone said that this is outragous and they wont stand for it. This DNR chose the worng person, who has a lot of contecting in high places, to piss off.  
Hilary Dawn

PS~If this does go down bad I'll get their email address and we can flood them with mail.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hilary, I'd still get the printed ordinances, you mentioned that the lady
did raise the issue of how many feet away. If that's what they are going on,
they don't seem to be basing their 'threats' on neglect, but rather code violation  ......Anyway, I just hope that you or your birds don't get into harms way.

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

She was saying that last year inside city limits that there was some one breeding some type of deer and the neighbors got upset and called DNR. This person didn't have a lience for them and DNR still couldn't do anything about it cause the animals were found to be fit and healthy (cause a large animal vet was flone in). So my boss said that they would still have to do the same thing for my case. 
As for the "too close to the house" thing I told her I'm building a new loft fruther away. We have about 3-4acers in behind our house that we're buying this summer and I'm building it there. 
Just about everything DNR throws at me I have a solution so basicly what are they going to go on now.........that I'm a teenager?! The DNR worker always think their king s*** and don't care about anyone else. These people need to get a life.
Well can anyone think of something I should know and to build up my case??
Thanks everyone
Hilary Dawn


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Keys, I hope it works out for you where you get to keep your birds. I have fears that sometime someone in my neighborhood will complain about my birds and I'll have to get rid of them. One thing from your original post did catch my attention though... it had to do with you saying the original complaint was about the feral flock that frequents your house / you feed them. I don't think this is the first time someone has mentioned on Pigeons.com about troubles that have come up from attracting ferals to one's house and feeding them. For others, it might be wise to not attract ferals to your house and feed there, you can never tell how your neighbors will react to that.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Keys & Eyegone said:


> Just about everything DNR throws at me I have a solution *so basicly what are they going to go on now.........that I'm a teenager?*!
> 
> The DNR worker always think their king s*** and don't care about anyone else. These people need to get a life.
> Well can anyone think of something I should know and to build up my case??
> ...


Hi Hilary,
*If* they pursue this, they will probably go to your folks.

*"This week end I'm going to be writing up all my birds' stories and paying my friend the mayor a visit."*

Stories about your birds are great, however, I would suggest getting a copy of the laws *first*, before you visit anyone. Read them over very carefully. If there is anything you need to do in order to be in compliance with the laws, get it done. If the law requires you to have a license, then go fill out an application. *Then*, have *your* copy of the laws, any vaccination documentation you might have on your birds, photos of the birds living quarters & receipt for the license application in hand when you go visiting. 

As hard as it may be, I would definitely *stop* feeding the ferals. It seems this is what prompted the investigation in the first place. 

Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hilary,

Cindy is right on this....please listen and do exactly what she says.

You have passion and conviction and good intentions here, we all know this and applaud you for it. But, you won't have a leg to stand on if you don't have the proper paperwork to back you up.

I can tell by your posts that you feel very passionately about this situation, and I don't blame you....BUT, please, no matter how angry they make you, PLEASE keep your cool. If you start getting upset and raising your voice, any chance you have of them listening to you will fly right out the window.

I wish you the very best of luck in resolving this situation in your favor...

Linda


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thanks everyone,
It's been hard keeping my cool but I have, no need to worry my parents say it all the time.
I have read the ByLaws and the only thing it says about pigeons is that they're pests. I didn't go see the mayor today, getting Tommy to the vet was more important. For now I'm not going to do anything and see what will happen, they may not have a case and will drop it.
As for my feral flock I feed them very early in the morning and now they now they only get fed once and leave. I also feed them way back in the field behind my house. I'm getting photo copies of all my birds' records from the vet's office which I'm picking up tomorrow morning and making apointments for my other birds that haven't gone yet to have a file open for them too.
So far today it's been quite. They were suppose to call me back but they haven't. We'll just see, there's still 3hrs of work time left.
Hilary Dawn


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## Mistifire (May 27, 2004)

I hope this works out well for you, I went through this with my dogs because there was a vacant house on the right and one behind my house, the house to the right was being broken into and my dogs barking saved the peoples belingings and keep drugs out of it (according to the cops) the house behind was bought by someone who didnt like dogs and since it was vacant for at least a year my dogs didnt think they belonged there and would bark at them at first. They called the animal control who came out and was very ornery with me, asking me for my mother (i live on my own) and saying my dog was going to be taken if I dont get it operated on to prevent barking. The whole area is full of dogs who bark alot more than mine do.

I went to the main office and renewed licences and I asked about the laws, I was told by a very nice lady that they are not allowed to disclose who complained and they have to investigate and let you know a complaint was made for every call. She said the actual law is that if it bothers someone then it is a nucance so one bark a day could be breaking the law the way it was written. She told me to get letters from people that did not have a problem with the dogs in case it had to go to trial and said that the people who complained had to proove there was a problem before a time limit ended. They had to record or video tape my dogs barking. A few times I cought them teasing them to try to tape it but the lady at the office told me they will watch the videos and make sure it is not just a picky neighbor. 

It can be done but it is a hassle. I just made sure I was up to date on shots and licences and that they were not barking unreasonably. and I never heard anything else, aparently the complainer decided it was not worth the trouble.

Just remember they dont know all the laws, they are trying to act like they know and be in authority but if you have researched it yourself and can back up your side it should be fine.

Im glad to hear that you have a back up plan if something doesnt work out as planned. Good Luck!


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Hillary,

Again, good luck... but if its the feeding of the ferals that has brought this about, maybe you should consider not feeding them. I realize you may disagree with me, but they are wild animals and should fend for themselves; nature's way and all. If its the ferals being around that your neighbors really don't like, then if they were out of the picture or if they understood that you're no longer feeding / attracting ferals then they may not care nor even notice your loft birds... just a thought, It may be too late now for your loft birds now that the DNR is involved, but just my 2 cents.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Guess I'm back on my two cents, Hillary, which is that there may be local ordinances which lump chickens and pigeons together in the town or city's 'Animal Ordinance' or the like. This in addition to the a broader code which may deem them as 'nuisance' wildlife. Make sure that you know all applicalbe laws and ordinances for where you live.

fp


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

HAPPY DAY!!!
My boss and I found this:
http://www.gnb.ca/0062/regs/92-74.htm
It basically says that anyone can have pigeons with out a lience (I'm printing it out right now-all 45pages of it ). I also got a copy of my city's bylaws- all of them which now says nothing about birds at all now cause it was revised not that long ago(I found out I was reading the old one!). I still can't find anything about "wildlife" being some many feet from one's dwelling. DNR still hasn't called me back too, everyone at work said they must be embarased when they actually read their oun "Fish and Wildlife Act." But who knows, I don't really care as long as they stay away from my birds. I got all their vet records on hand too.
I want to have a party. I know I shouldn't get too coxy but I'm so happy were we found this!!
Well thanks all for your support and I'll let you all know how the next few days go!! 
Hilary Dawn


PS~I found out today I'm GRADUATING!!!!!!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Hilary,

Sounds like you & your oss turned up some good news, I hope everything goes in your favor!  

Congratulations on graduating, also! You should have lots to celebrate.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hilary, I don't think that you would find it in city or town ordinances regarding
wildlife, but rather regarding the housing of poultry or the like. It would be somewhere in the city animal ordinances. It looks as though you are getting things lined up, as long as there isn't anything that lumps pigeon housing within the city/town in with the ordinances dealing w/chicken or the like. If excluded from the Fish and Wildlife Act, and your medical records discount neglect, and there are no violations regarding the location of the housing, then it would seem
that you have all bases covered unless there is something else that your neighbors can base a complaint on....

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hilary, you should also check the deed to the property where you keep your pigeons to make sure there are no Covenants written into the deed that would prohibit your keeping livestock or poultry on the property. Subdivisions also have "associations" that have covenants written into their bylaws that may prohibit something like that too.

Congratulations on graduating!


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hilary,

I have some books on Abraham Lincoln, and I recall from years ago that he lost some of his early court cases because he was inadequately prepared. He learned to prepare by discovering everything the opposition could use against him and his client.

Put yourself in your neighbor's shoes. What is the worst they can possibly come up with? (We like to underplay what others have against us). 

For the sake of winning your argument, ASSUME that they are the sweetest, kindest, well-intentioned and reasonable people in the world. (The person who decides the fate of your birds may see eye-to-eye with them). Getting angry or emotional might work for you; it might work against you. Don't let it work against you unless you have a successful track record (you are an aggressive state attorney general, with many mobsters put away, for example). I don't do well if I get all fired up: I usually drain my batteries and don't have much left over. 

I did some cursory internet search on UK DEFRA laws a while back. Pigeons are considered poultry, like chickens. People eat chickens. Nobody is going to be brought into court for eating a chicken. Thus, pigeons are exempted from wildlife (wildlife protection) acts. Pigeons are considered pests. They actually eat grain that farmers plant, and some feel that if you don't kill them they might actually lower your profit margin, and that would be an intolerable situation. Rats are considered pests, and no one is going to be too concerned about providing rats with an agonizing death by poison (which I recently witnessed, last September 12th). It's easier to poison rats than to pick up one's own litter. The rats I saw poisoned by the city (warning to not touch the dead rats poisoned by difenacoum, an anticoagulant rodenticide, posted near-by, invoked the authority and permission of the Cologne mayor's office: Burgermeister, Rathaus) tried to crawl out of the manhole covers near the recycling containers, to die in the hedge nearby. Four adults and a baby. They tried to escape from death. People were afraid of the rats; the rats were wary, careful and quick to avoid people, to no avail. (The day before, I had helped a Serbian woman from the refugee asylum building down the street pull a discarded vacuum cleaner from the bin and load it onto her young boy's baby carriage. She said she was afraid of the rats. I replied they were probably more afraid of us since we were larger). A couple of weeks later I watched four or five baby rats repeatedly venture partway from the hedge to the contaner, then turn back. Shortly thereafter they, too, disappeared. They have their place in this world, and we have ours, and the two don't have to overlap. If we invite them to live with us by being sloppy, we should cohabit peacefully.

Put yourself in your neighbor's shoes, and ASSUME for the sake of the argument that YOU YOURSELF are the worst imaginable sort of person: 
You thus have a neighbor who is definitely abusing animals, disturbing the peace, threatening your health, and acting anti-social to top it off. Let's say you are reasonable, you can manage to maintain your health, you'll put up with the occasional noise, and you can tolerate an anti-social neighbor. (This is probably how your neighbors see themselves). But: someone who abuses animals? someone who tries to make pets of naturally wild creatures? Someone who tries to alter their wild natures for his own amusement? What can you do about it? Wouldn't you like to have some public and official back-up, some legal recourse, without having to arrange vigilante actions? If the neighbor were actually torturing animals, wouldn't you like to simply have to place a simple phone call to the appropriate elected or appointed authority to have the matter taken care of? Sure you would. 

Those pesky neighbors with their pigeons! Why can't they own pedigreed poodles and pampered persian cats like the rest of us? 

Sometimes humor can be an effective weapon. I once considered raising cockroaches, but took the delicate sensibilities of my neighbors into account and abstained. I am a reasonable person. There should be more like me around. The world ... a better place. Actually, just having me should be sufficient. I have to think about that. 

Larry

Update: My ten-month-old rescued and handraised male Wieteke has completely recovered from a bout of PMV and coccidiosis a couple of weeks ago and is about to lead his two month-old chicks from the nest. His feral mate Mamieke is sitting on two more eggs inside our apartment. Neither of them is happy about sharing the space with a young scalped and starving PMV squeaker. "Mr. Fifty" (found on my wife's 50th birthday at the same recycling containers where the rats were poisoned) isn't flying backwards any more, is replacing tail feathers, has gone from 200 grams to 285 grams (ten ounces), and is eating seeds on his own. He still slings corn all over. If he had not already been given a name, I considered calling him "Popcorn" for the explosive sounds he makes throwing corn in his pet carrier retreat. He is a real sweetie. He looks like a punker with his head feathers going in all directions, and loves me brushing his neck feathers with a toothbrush. I used steam towels on his scalp wound -- I think there is no skin covering the top of the skull -- to moisten blood-matted and ingrowing feathers, and he lovess nuzzling into the towel. After the first steam towel treatment he made very rapid recovery in pecking at and picking up and getting down seeds. Damp topical heat might be a good PMV treatment.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Larry, I enjoyed reading your post very much.


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## Keys & Eyegone (May 9, 2004)

Thanks for the though Larry. I did try and think about it that way but not deeply enough, I admit. I tried talking to my neighbor (who I think called) and she wouldn't talk back. I should have turn it humous like you said but not cokroaches (I hate them), instead maybe.........large breed dogs, ie: Irish Wolfhound........I love them. 
I don't have time to go down tomorrow to City Hall to find out the feetage but I'll do it first thing Monday after work (Graduating tomorrow!!!  )
Keep the ideas coming. One day this thread could be a learning tool for some one else down the road. SO KEEP ON TALKING!!!
Hilary Dawn


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