# Phenotypical stigmas in breeding?



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

What are considered some undesired physcial features in breeding? For example: 

1.) "Too many white flights" should be avoided (more than two). 

2.) Bars on the tail are "too light." 

3.) Long swanny necks.

4.) Long stilty-looking legs.

5.) Deep keels.


----------



## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I never heard the first 2, haha. My best pigeon ever had all white flights. Also a lot of people like deep keeled birds especially for the longer races. Now 3 and 4 just tend to be ugly birds, but I wouldn't shy away from racing them...


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

None of those are bad to me. Although sometimes the tail bars can be made lighter because of stress/bugs/malnutrition, causing a poor moult. May not effect breeding, BUT you want to avoid it happening to your birds


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

It depends on what traits you are trying to keep and which ones you are trying to rid. If you do not like white flights select them out. Long necks, select them out. 
My thoughts are that I am selecting for the best racers. This in tern fixes the undesirable traits. If white flights are bad because they get weak or Hawks are attracted to them these birds will be lost or last on the sheet. Deep keels, stilt legs etc. The basket will fix all the rest If speed is your selection criteria. Sometimes I think some selection methods are for fanciers personal preference and don't have anything to do with racing. 
Another way to think about it is to look in the lofts of the best in the world. What traits do those birds have and why? You are right that you do not see many white flights, long necks, etc. My one of few with white flights bred me a 3rd in our local bond futurity race. Sometimes I think we over think selection.


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> What are considered some undesired physcial features in breeding? For example:
> 
> 1.) "Too many white flights" should be avoided (more than two).
> 
> ...


If your selecting for pairs or something. Then that person either chose the wrong birds to bring into the breeding loft or isn't realizing that maybe those physical traits are what helped the birds win? (now if we are saying physical traits even help the birds at all that is, from looking at some peoples birds I think they don't)


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

English Carriers were a big part of making racing pigeons, and they have long necks/legs. It's too bad people don't fly them anymore


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another way to think about things. If a bird has a white flight say the 9th or 10th flight. The absence of this flight is much worse than the bird having one that is white. A white flight is better than a missing flight. Do long legs have anything to do with the birds ability to fly. They do not use legs to fly. Do long legs weigh more? I know a few basketball players that have long legs. Maybe the length of the legs helps when stepping on the clock pad. The long legged bird will get their fractions of a second quicker. They can also use the legs to chase after hens. I would want hens with short legs so the cocks could catch them. 
It all comes down to, what are you selecting for? Most things people use has nothing to do with racing abilities.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I do think their are a few basic Phenotypic standards that we must follow. Sometimes you will walk into a loft, look at the birds and say to yourself this guy has no chance. Their is a general look, size, feel to good birds. This could be more stock sense than anything. I took some guys up to see my mentor. He has all colors of birds, from many sources. Grizzles, whites, bb, etc. Both of them when they came out of the loft were amazed. By looking they knew there were some good birds there. All in form all looked like pro athletes. Different in their own way, but the same. You will know when you are in a loft like this. The loft is no cleaner than the rest, not more organized etc. Its just the birds. On the other hand when I walk into some guys lofts, I instantly know, not quite there yet.


----------



## ezemaxima (Jan 12, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> English Carriers were a big part of making racing pigeons, and they have long necks/legs. It's too bad people don't fly them anymore


I have 6 English Carriers that i loft fly. They have a unique flying pattern and have seen fly pretty fast. I've never took them for a toss yet but i will later.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

MaryOfExeter said:


> English Carriers were a big part of making racing pigeons, and they have long necks/legs. It's too bad people don't fly them anymore


Yes on the english strains They were used. But not the belgium strains. Just as german beauty homers were at one time race birds Now just a show breed. Far as breeding birds It human choice on what they like in there birds. MANY a white flighted bird has done well all over the world. Feather quality is what keeps that feather in better shape. I do not care much for long leged birds. BUT man should know to off set faults Shorter leged bird over longer leged bird And so forth. Deep killed birds Some are from old line birds that did race ok And flew the distance But was a slower flyer. All pigeons raised by man carry the human desire of there breeders.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

English and Belgian strains were eventually mixed. 
Ezemaxima - you should try it!  My dad also loft flew his and said they looked like pencils with wings, LOL.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

A frill is a result of inbreeding too . Frill birds are said to make excelent breeders.

Long leg birds are often off balance. If the birds legs are too long when flying he will hook his toes further out towards the end of his tail. Short legs will hook near the base of the tail where the strongest muscles and feathers are. Hooking further out will cause extra effort to swing the tail , or restrict the bird from getting full motion or swing of his tail. This extra effort will fatigue the bird faster.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a frilled homer out of non-related birds  It's another trait that's been in homers forever.


----------



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

ezemaxima said:


> I have 6 English Carriers that i loft fly. They have a unique flying pattern and have seen fly pretty fast. I've never took them for a toss yet but i will later.


Is there a way you can take a video of them flying? I always wanted to see ones. (I also like to see how Dragoons fly and perhaps even Cumulet.)

I get sad when a flying bird ended up non-flying anymore. It is like a stranded airplane on a tarmac.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

ERIC K said:


> A frill is a result of inbreeding too . Frill birds are said to make excelent breeders.
> 
> Long leg birds are often off balance. If the birds legs are too long when flying he will hook his toes further out towards the end of his tail. Short legs will hook near the base of the tail where the strongest muscles and feathers are. Hooking further out will cause extra effort to swing the tail , or restrict the bird from getting full motion or swing of his tail. This extra effort will fatigue the bird faster.


Erik do you know of any articles about long legs and their effects on flying birds. Your explanation sounds reasonable. Just wonder if their are any studies out there on leg length. I have heard that fanciers do not like them, but have not seen any scientific evidence to back it up. Personally I just chalk it up to another theory to use besides race results.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

The science teacher in me got to thinking. Is there a golden ration when it comes to pigeons, as far as leg length, wing span, tail to beak etc. Some say their is when it comes to beauty and face structure. Many things like airplanes need to be in specifications to fly. But there are many different shapes and sizes of airplanes. I also went to the jewels of the sky auction to look at birds. Some were long legged some short, even the foundation of what is for sale. No I am in search of a long legged champion.


----------



## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

hillfamilyloft said:


> It depends on what traits you are trying to keep and which ones you are trying to rid. If you do not like white flights select them out. Long necks, select them out.
> My thoughts are that I am selecting for the best racers. This in tern fixes the undesirable traits. If white flights are bad because they get weak or Hawks are attracted to them these birds will be lost or last on the sheet. Deep keels, stilt legs etc. The basket will fix all the rest If speed is your selection criteria. Sometimes I think some selection methods are for fanciers personal preference and don't have anything to do with racing.
> Another way to think about it is to look in the lofts of the best in the world. What traits do those birds have and why? You are right that you do not see many white flights, long necks, etc. My one of few with white flights bred me a 3rd in our local bond futurity race. Sometimes I think we over think selection.


Also, white flight may indicate recessive white genes and mating two of that type can result in whole white pigeons.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Hill Family Loft, I don't have any papers on the subject of leg lengh. I read the statement on long legs in pigeons in a book .It also talked about the balance of pigeons with the standard being : Pigeons come in three basic sizes large , medium and small with no prefect bird just that one can come as close to perfiction as possible when picking birds for breeding. With that said the book also gave this " Balance in our birds deals with length, breadth and height. When one learns to recognise balance with his naked eye, he will be on the right track to selecting good breeders. The height is equal to the lenght in a prefectly balanced pigeon. This means that the distance from front of the breastbone to the end of the wings must equal the distance from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head." "One must assume that a long legged bird is not in prefict balance. This also signifies that a long-necked bird is unsuitable."

From Rotondo on Racing Pigeons. Page46


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks
I think I will still go with the theory that if you use the basket alone for your selection then the negative traits will work themselves out of your colony. That is until you buy a piece of paper and cross it in with your birds. Then you start over.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> What are considered some undesired physcial features in breeding? For example:
> 
> 1.) "Too many white flights" should be avoided (more than two).
> 
> ...


http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticl...annoo-meigem-deinzebreeding-mother-thousands”
This bird could have done better if not for the white flights.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I bet he was glad he did not cull the bird for its white flights in the breeding loft.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes I think you are right in that the basket will ,to a point pick your best for you.

I have gathered many pigeons in the short time I've been involved in this sport, and lost many pigeons, so its important to try to learn as much as I can so not to waste time money and birds that should never have reproduced in the first place. My most reliable birds are the work of other fanciers and I would like to be able to keep a family of birds and my loft going for many generations by my skills.

So many people including myself once, thought that one could buy two pigeons , mate them , raise many young birds, race them and it would be easy. These last two years have been my toughest years in school!


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I think it all stems from finding the best birds you can in the first place. From there selection begins. Many guys start with others bottom of the bucket and expect to win. I was lucky a guy started me off with the cream of his crop. YB off his best pairs. Saved me years of grief. Not all were good, but most were. The babies started winning from the get go. 
I do think the best selection you can do is in your original purchase of birds.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

When I do select a new bird to bring in I select a bird off the best of a particular loft. An example would be my SLI bird I brought in he was a burrowed brother of a top 10 points bird in the club. Another hen was a sister of a YB race winner off two birds that were the best young birds for the flier the year before. One happened to be a bird I gave him. I burrowed some pairs from ACE In the Hole and bred youngsters. Our second best young bird was off his 801. She was top 10% in four races. I am stocking siblings off her. Performance based selection.


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamily makes the best point, and that is to start off with the right stock.


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

This does not have to cost you thousands either. Looking at Ipigeon acution you can see inexpensive birds off good bloodlines. The stock section has two 2010 birds off the best of Clausings Houbens, one for $60 one for $100. There has been two auctions for race winning birds. Two of which were George Rankin birds for cheap. Look to the best in the club for some late breeds off their best pairs. PT has a bunch of good fliers right here. Mentors and Friends. Just takes patience and hard work.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes and Yes again. If I only had my mentor the first year I started with pigeons how much more enjoyment I would have had! I was ready to quit when I tryed to race old birds my second year . It was bad from the start and when He got me going in the right direction by getting my birds healthy, well that made all the difference. Three weeks later I had my first win. With the birds I already had, just needed some help. Hope anyone that has raced one time signs up for the HAB program.

The Au's HAB program might be the best thing for this great sport


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

The 'Help a Beginner' program is wonderful way for young new fanciers to get their feet wet with good quality birds. My brother applied in our second year and we received two pairs of breeders. Of one those bred our best bird, 632.


----------



## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> English Carriers were a big part of making racing pigeons, and they have long necks/legs. It's too bad people don't fly them anymore


Why don't they fly them anymore and can they?


----------



## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Kal-El said:


> The 'Help a Beginner' program is wonderful way for young new fanciers to get their feet wet with good quality birds. My brother applied in our second year and we received two pairs of breeders. Of one those bred our best bird, 632.


Who was his sponsor?


----------



## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

hillfamily, he received birds from Errol Ecker.


----------

