# New tails coming in all messed up



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Folks, 

Hmmm...got a weird thing happening over here with my young ones, Lucy & Ricky. They are still going through their moult although it's nearly done. Just a few flights left on each bird and the tails on both are in various stages of completion.

The tail feathers coming in on both birds are ratty looking, tattered and frayed. The flight feathers don't look like this and are smooth and well formed, all the barbs sticking together nicely. The tail feathers look moth eaten and the barbs are not smoothly fitting together. I don't understand this because both birds are eating pretty well, they get all the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, ACV, garlic etc so they shouldn't be having a problem.

Let me backtrack a bit here as well. When I first got the youngsters from Mary's house when they were around 3 months old, the feathers were great on both of them. Not long after I brought them home they went into their first moult to change into their adult plumage. These feathers grew in nicely and were fine as well. This is their 2nd moult of their lives and about a year since their first moult. Eggbert, my older male (their father) has always had a messed up tail, it's frayed, tattered, barbs don't stick together etc. No matter how many moults he's gone through, they never improve and I've never really understood this either. I figured it was due to poor nutrition and improper care from his previous owner. Could it be that the babies inherited this genetic flaw from Eggbert if that is what this is? But if so, why would it only be surfacing so long afterwards when they've already grown healthy looking feathers before? I can't see how it's diet related or environmental because then Henny would have a problem with her feathers as well but she doesn't. Henny is totally fine in this regard and all her feathers always come in beautifully. 

Any suggestions, ideas or thoughts?

Thanks,


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I have no idea, Brad.
I would also be interested to find out why this happens as my fantail has the same problem as you describe.
When I found him his tail feathers were trimmed by his previous onwers, now after his molt they grew back just awful. My guess is, the previous owner trimmed them just for that reason.

Reti


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

How much protien are the birds getting to much protien can make for problems. Also do the birds get a bath reguler. It will help the feathers to open better. On the fantail. As they moult in the new you should go through the tail faethers sorting them out. To keep them from bunch. As the more they bunch some feathers will twist.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti and Robert, 

Thanks for your replies. As for how much protein they are consuming, I have no idea. I've never really inquired for this information from my feed supply store and the bags don't have that information on them either. I had been feeding the birds a racing pigeon mix, called "summer mix" for the longest time. It has most of the regular grains and seeds in it except for corn which I added popcorn to myself. I've recently switched over to something called "tippler mix". That's how the different pigeon mixes are named here. This mix has the popcorn already added to it and a few other seeds that my other one didn't have. 

As for bathing, the birds get a bath once or twice a week. But with both these possibilities, the protein content and the bathing, wouldn't Henny be having a problem too then with her feathers?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

How cool is the weather late moult and cool temps slows the progrees in the moult also


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Robert, 

It's actually been unseasonally warm here considering it's mid October. However, my birds are housed indoors. It's just hard to understand why only the youngsters and their tails would be affected  

Thanks for your reply again


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Brad,

I'm sorry to hear about your youngsters tails. 

Just a thought: Perhaps a garlic capsule everyday might help for the time being. I know the smell may be an issue, but it is worth a try.

I've seen the caps really improve the bloom and quality of feathers in my birds when using it daily for a month. I've used it for various lengths of times, especially when rehabbing. Those birds have the most beautiful feathering of all my pigeons.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Treesa, 

Thanks for the information...is it safe to give them a garlic capsule every day for a month? I don't know how effective it will be, or rather if I will see any improvement because the feathers are nearly already out. I might have to wait until next year to try this to see results.

It's just a very odd thing because again, it's really only the tail feathers that have been affected by whatever this is.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Treesa,
> Thanks for the information...is it safe to give them a garlic capsule every day for a month? I don't know how effective it will be, or rather if I will see any improvement because the feathers are nearly already out.



Actually, I have given garlic more then a month in some instances, it is safe as it is a natural product with no side effects, except for the aroma. 

Strange... that it is only tail, I do hope you get to the "bottom" of this.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Treesa, 

I think I'll start the birds on the garlic capsules now for a course of 3-5 consecutive days for now. I guess what I was most wondering about was long term use of concentrated garlic, whether it would give them diarrhea or just make them feel sick. Even with natural products you have to be careful at times depending on what it is. I think I'm too late though to correct the feathers this year if it's a problem that garlic would improve on.

The only garlic I give them currently is my garlic juice with vitamins in their water 2 times per week. Speaking of which I do have a question about this. These are a supplement that I purchased at Foy's about 2 years ago and it seems odd but they've told me they don't expire I've called them twice on the phone in regards to this to make sure and each time they've assured me that they are still fine. I don't keep the garlic juice in the fridge but it is kept cool and dark. The birds haven't seem to had any ill effects either but it just seems odd.

Now in regards to the garlic capsules, mine are pretty small and human grade gel caps with the oil inside. I suppose it doesn't really matter on the UI's of the caplets with the birds? In the past when giving the birds these supplements, I've always used them sparingly, ie: once or twice a week or more in times of stress. I use human grade probiotics and these are in a nice small caplets as well. I also use halibut oil rather than cod liver and these are VERY small, round capsules/caplets. So, it doesn't matter then what the UI's or size of the pill is for dosing?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Then could they be rubbing the new tail aginst something. Also brewwers yeast tablets work good. you can break them in half and give one a day. The tabs help also to keep them healthy.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> I think I'll start the birds on the garlic capsules now for a course of 3-5 consecutive days for now. I guess what I was most wondering about was long term use of concentrated garlic, whether it would give them diarrhea or just make them feel sick. Even with natural products you have to be careful at times depending on what it is. I think I'm too late though to correct the feathers this year if it's a problem that garlic would improve on.
> 
> The only garlic I give them currently is my garlic juice with vitamins in their water 2 times per week. Speaking of which I do have a question about this. These are a supplement that I purchased at Foy's about 2 years ago and it seems odd but they've told me they don't expire I've called them twice on the phone in regards to this to make sure and each time they've assured me that they are still fine. I don't keep the garlic juice in the fridge but it is kept cool and dark. The birds haven't seem to had any ill effects either but it just seems odd.
> 
> Now in regards to the garlic capsules, mine are pretty small and human grade gel caps with the oil inside. I suppose it doesn't really matter on the UI's of the caplets with the birds? In the past when giving the birds these supplements, I've always used them sparingly, ie: once or twice a week or more in times of stress. I use human grade probiotics and these are in a nice small caplets as well. I also use halibut oil rather than cod liver and these are VERY small, round capsules/caplets. So, it doesn't matter then what the UI's or size of the pill is for dosing?


The garlic capsules I use are 1500 mg., my rehabber uses the 2500 mg. I have not seen any reactions with my birds poops, however do not use on a bird with an upset stomach or otherwise sensitive. 

I have used the probiotics capsules, down the throat. They do have great results when given that way. I've only had to use them for a few days.

I don't think with the probiotics it matters as far as dosage, and I haven't had problems with the 1500 mg. garlic. Once or twice a week is fine. However, with halibut capsules, I would only give that once a month. Vitamin A can be overdosed if given too much. I usally stop using the garlic capsules every day once a bird shows great improvement in rehab. I gave it to Bear for over a month when he was mending from a broken leg, he molted during that time, and he got the most beautiful feathering, sleak and clean looking.

I would not keep the garlic juice either after a year, you are right about not using it. It probably has lost its potency.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

I have one bird... Speedy... who's tail feathers are more "messed up" then the rest of the birds. I think it is because he'll "coo" and "bow" and "strut" and "tail drag" for ANY and ALL the hens in the loft, not just his mate. I mean, this bird has to be the h*rniest pigeon EVER. Anyway, I think that is why his tail is always a wreck, because he's always dragging it... P-pal2002, that couldn't be part of it with your bird, could it? Is he dragging his tail a lot as compared to your other cock-bird, trying to attract a mate??


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Treesa, 

Thanks for your reply about the garlic, that is good to know then. And yes, you're right about the vitamin A in the halibut oil being toxic to the pigeons if given too much. I only do give it to them once a month or less 

When I go shopping for human supplements for the birds, I buy the smallest capsules I can find to go down their throats easy. I'll take a picture of them sometime next to a pea from my pigeon mix so everyone can see how small they are

Hi Robert and Tim, 

I really don't believe that they tails are being destroyed from dragging them or from brushing up against anything. This just doesn't make sense because my birds room is all smooth surfaces. There is no wire in the room, the floor is vinyl, the walls are plastered and painted. As well, it's mostly the female who struts and drags her tail and the male's tail is messed up too 

It really is an odd one, but Eggbert's tail is the worst...but again, his has always been messed up and I've had him for nearly 4 years now. The youngsters tails are not nearly as bad as his but they are coming in much more tattered and frayed then they used to be.

Thanks again to everyone for offering their advice and suggestions


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Then is there achance they have mites. When the birds get mites they pick and pull the feathers messing them up. Might dust them or dipp which ever.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Robert, 

I thought of this too, the mites. But does it make sense to you that only 3 birds would be affected? My ole Hen doesn't have a problem and certainly if there were mites on Eggbert, they would have been transferred to Henny as well.

And on top of that, the birds are given ivomec 2 times per year as prevention. I don't mean to shoot down all your suggestions but I've thought of all these angles and nothing really seems to fit because of the fact Henny is fine.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...mites. But does it make sense to you that only 3 birds would be affected?...


It could be that Henny's body chemistry is not as appealing to mites and/or she isn't as reactive (doesn't feel as irritated so doesn't damaging the feathers). Our dogs reacted very differently to fleas. One would never scratch, the second would drop coat and turn pink at the first flea, while we never found a flea on the third dog.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

Thank you for your input, that is a very good perspective and one that I would tend to ponder but I'm still having a hard time thinking it's mites. I do treat the birds with ivermectin twice a year. As well, they get sprayed every few months and I've got sevin dust sprinkled into the corners of the room in the cracks now.

I did have an occurance of some type of bug during the summer months but they were not mites, they were on the floor all the time and near food and water dishes. 

I also thought mites damaged the feathers themselves, depending on the kind, if they were quill mites for example. I've also examined the birds and I can see no evidence of mites on them nor anywhere in the room.

My birds are just strange, I've come to realize this because they just seem to be oddities in many regards. I've got two other strange things going on with my birds at the moment but I can't see the point in posting the issues here because I don't think we'll figure them out

Thanks again,


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Brad, do Runts mature later than generic pigeons? Is this their first molt since they became breeding age? Since it's only the tail feathers of the three related birds, a genetic problem is possible. Is there a Runt pigeon group you could contact? I wonder if this is a known issue with certain bloodlines.

Just thought of something which would also be genetic, but in a different way. Do Ricky and Lucy stand and move more like Eggbert than like Henny? In the normal course of everyday activities, do their tail feathers sustain more physical damage from contact with things?

Do they seem bothered by the frazzled tail feathers?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Terri, 

Thanks for the inquiries about the runts, unfortunately I don't know the answers to many of your questions. Yes, this is their first moult since becoming mature, but second moult overall. 

It would appear that the runts take a little longer in general to mature than other pigeon types, but I'm only basing this on my hand reared youngsters. There could have been some consequences of them developing a little slower because of this however, not sure. Other than that, both Henny and Eggbert were adults when I got them but I have noticed that Eggbert has grown some in size over the years. 

No, there are no runt groups that I've been able to find that have been helpful or have many members even. And about the bloodlines, I have NO idea about that or what my birds bloodlines are. I'm not even sure they keep track of such things with less than show quality runts. 

Whether or not the youngsters behave or act more like one or the other parent, very difficult to answer as well because they are hand raised and tame. The are very different in behaviour and the way they move than either parent. At times though, they do seem to have some similarities to Henny in sounds and nervousness. They will both kind of rattle their voices when they become excited or nervous and this is just like Henny.

The feathers don't really brush up against anything as their room has very smooth surfaces and lots of space for them. The tail feathers don't appear to bother them in any way either..phew....lots of questions and answers, lol.

Thanks very much for your efforts to get to the bottom of this. It's not a serious problem really because I know they are healthy otherwise. It's just one of those odd things that inquiring minds want to know and figure out


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

Even though this issue hasn't been resolved or that we really figured out what is going on for sure with my pigeons' tails, but I thought I'd post a couple of pictures anyway. One of Eggbert and one of Lucy is enclosed.

Perhaps seeing will give more of a clue....or maybe not I tried to hold Eggbert myself and spread his tail while I took a picture, but I didn't have enough hands


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Mmmmm*

wonder if the problem could be something dietary? 

Mr. Squeaks gets ratty looking feathers too, like Eggbert, at times. Otherwise, he seems quite healthy and was recently checked out by his doctor.

I just feed him pigeon seed mix I get from Mesa Feed Barn + grit + some seeds/fruit/veggie combo from an organic source + his "treat" of Canary Seeds & Hemp seeds with a smidge of grit added. Once in awhile a few pieces of lettuce.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, this is a mystery, particularly with Henny's feathers being ok. I would lean toward diet or need for sunlight but that's just a guess. I hope the other problems you mention are not serious. 

Best, maggie


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Two things I noticed looking at the pictures. First both birds have a good black color in the tail not sooty. small quilled softer feathered Which will fray easyer then larger quilled harder featherd birds. Now the floor is fine BUT I think the smooth floor makes the birds walk a little more cautioned. maybe drag the tail some. I would put some floor cover down they will thak you for it. Now some disagree BUT I use pine shaveing at 2 inches deep. works great for me. Also soft tails. wet the tail with a spray bottle. take the feather 1 at a time work it back up . it will help pull it back together. And with a small number of birds. You can work the feathers every few days. When a bird just rubs its tail just a little and it has soft feathering. It frays some. THATS common. And I still think now that I have had a chance to see something. thats what we are looking at. You would have to breed towards hader feather. BUT as a rule good black color is softer. So I would breed towards a thicker quill. which strenghens the feather. BUt mostly I see no health issues just feather quality. That needs to be worked from time to time. AND I would add a base on the floor for walking. Young birds can get a little spradel leged some times on to smooth of walking surface. Just a thought.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks for the replies folks,

Mr. Squeaks & Maggie, I don't think it's diet related because the birds have access to a wide variety of grains, seeds, vitamins, supplements etc. They also have full spectrum lighting in their room for the added UV they don't get from the sun. 

Robert, thanks for this tip about the softer feathered birds, this could be possible and perhaps the youngsers did inherit this from their father. I'll try what you suggested, wetting and working the tail feathers on the birds and see how that goes...thanks!

About the floor though, the birds have no problem at all walking on it and only slip occasionally. You have to remember as well that my birds are housed indoors in a room in the basement, pine shavings would be a nightmare in there As well, I'm not breeding my birds so there will be no more future offspring to develop sprayed legs on my slippery floor

Thanks Everybody


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## Doves1111 (Mar 5, 2005)

*Help*

Brad,
I have the same thing happening to my Fantails...and now I'm noticing it my Ringneck doves too. I sprayed them and the loft with Permectrin and also dusted them with Poultry Dust...but I still see damage being done in their tails. In some, it's happening in their flights too. 

What is it? What could it be? Is it quill mites? Will Ivermectin take care of quill mites?

I have a show next month (my first one), and I don't think I'll be showing because of this. 

I'm just sick over it. 
Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Dawn, 

I'm sorry to hear you're having a problem as well with your fantails and doves I wish I could say for certain what your problem is, as I'm still basically in the dark with mine. If you read this thread from the start, Relee has offered some suggestions re: fantails and how to work the feathers so that they are smoother. If you see this spreading to your doves though and their tails weren't messed up before, it could be mites in your situation. Any type of mite that a pigeon would get is suseptable to Ivermectin so yes, you could treat all birds for mites to be safe. Twice a year is a good treatment/prevention plan, once in the fall and once in the spring with the ivomec.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

I find two things interesting about what is happening:

The first is that both of your 'babies' are having this happening at the same time, and it is during their first real moult after maturing.

Second is that their father has this, but their mother does not


Now, I can tell from all of your pics and videos you have posted as well as your post themselves that you take EXTREMELY GOOD CARE of them, I also assume that there have been no major changes in conditions, and your birds being inside almost eliminates the chances of catching lice etc from wild birds visiting.


My Diagnosis:

I think what you are seeing is genetic.


> Eggbert, my older male (their father) has always had a messed up tail, it's frayed, tattered, barbs don't stick together etc. No matter how many moults he's gone through, they never improve and I've never really understood this either.


I believe that your older male Eggbert carries a dominant gene called silky (L), being a dominant gene, all offspring that receive this gene will show it in their phenotype, in other words your 'babies' have just molted into their adult silky plumage.

This explains why your older male has 'always' had it, while your babies are 'getting it' and your older hen never has it.

The Silky Gene can have varying intensity and go from a few tails feathers to half of the bird.
As a reference here is a friend of mines bird that has the Silky Gene:
http://www.pixalbums.net/post.php?site=Pigeon&album=Laugher Lady Loft&pix=feral_pidge_003.jpg

Ofcourse I still recommend all of the above treatments to eliminate other potential causes, but this may be the reason behind your birds tailfeathers.

What were the other problems you were having, perhaps we may be able to attempt to solve them aswell.

Regards
Alaska


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Actually Dawn, I was just thinking and I don't know if Ivomec will kill quill mites. They live in the feather shaft and I don't think the ivomec would be effective for this particular mite. If you think your birds have quill mites, you should have them examined by your vet and they'd likely have the correct treatment for this type. 

Have you seen any evidence in discarded feathers, have you examined the shafts for any holes that have been bored into them? This would be a sign of quill mites. If you go to your vet, perhaps you could take some of the tail feathers for them to examine as well.

The other types of mites can be treating using ivomec however, the ones that feed off the blood and live on the skin of the bird.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 

Wow, thank you for your very well thought out post regarding my birds and the possible "silky" gene! Yes, I tend to agree with you that something genetic is going on here. I've thought about all the angles and factors and nothing else really fits where I can say, "that's what's going on here". And since Henny's feathers are fine, then to me, that rules out environmental (lack of sun, brushing the feathers against things), vitamin deficiencies or mites. 

I looked at your picture of your friends' feral bird with the silky gene and this does look similar indeed. One thing I noted was some of the wing coverts were affected as well by the gene. And now that I think of it, Eggbert, Lucy and Ricky have some frayed feathers in the exact same spot on their wings as well!!!!! I never really connected this or thought much about it because it's not very noticeable nor does it look funny really. In both the youngsters their colouring kind of hides these feathers from showing this fraying. But on the tails, you can't miss it. 

The one thing that I'm totally confused on and if this is a case of a silky gene present, is why the youngsters grew normal tail feathers for their first moult into their adult plumage at around 3 months. I can't really comprehend why after their first moult the youngsters didn't have this type of feather grow in at that time.

With all this said though, I'm beginning to feel at little more at ease and at least somewhat confident that we've ascertained a genetic connection here on some level. Thank you, I'll try to post some pictures of the affected wing coverets of the 3 birds soon if they will show up and you can see what I mean.

As for my other problems, these are weird ones as well, are you sure you want to try to tackle them? LOL If you are up for the challenge, I'll wait to hear back from you then I'll post what's going on

Thanks again Alaska and all for all the advice and suggestions. Talking these things through really helps to figure things out. That combined with all our collective experiences


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Yes, definately post some more pics of their wings so we can try to confirm if this is what is happening.
I have not had any personal experience in rearing a bird with silky, so I'm not sure when it comes into play on the birds appearance, I'll try and find out more about it.

As for your other wierd problems, go ahead, theres no harm in trying to figure them out, I'll do my very best at it , and ofcourse there are so many knowledgable people here that may have just heard of something.
Thats the beauty of forums such as these, the collective knowledge of us all combined makes a very powerful source to tap off. 

PS. I am about to go away for the weekend, so I may not post for a few days, but I will check back when I get back here.
Regards
Alaska


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

looking at the feral. first Its a youngbird less then 3 months old. The feathers look more fride then silky. As it only shows frade in what I se at the wing and tail. Silky would bee much looser and . The runts. Show typecal soft feathere which details as a thinner quill finer feather condition. That comes about from improved coloring and not over balance on harder feathere breeding. Which at some is fault. But can be manipulated for looks. Birds need to be handled and worked with to keep the feather together. But as seen you notice this just at the end not the whole feather. Which is fraying due to softer feathers. I would be surprised if the feral as it matures and is not over handled moults out smooth. Any bird that brushes its tail and has soft feather will fray loose a little. . FANTAILs also will most often get loose at the enf of the tail feathers also. I use malithion to dip my birds works well and is fast work when you have several birds to do. I use a five gallon bucket about 3 gallons of water and 3 to 4 tablespooons of malithion. Mix it. I use warm water it seems to soak the feather all the way through if its warm water. Be carfull not to put the birds head under the dip. They look bad wet wet. when you dip them but dry clean and shiney.


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## Doves1111 (Mar 5, 2005)

*On Some...but not all*

The new feathers that are coming in on some my Fantails look like Silky feathers...very similar to the feathers on my Silky Ringneck Doves... here is a picture of one of my Silky Ringneck Doves... http://www.pixalbums.net/post.php?site=Dove&album=Dawn Wisniewski&pix=073_73.jpg

I took several birds (Fantails and Ringneck Doves) outside today into the full Sunlight to examine them...I did not see any lice or mites...I didn't see any holes drilled into the quills of the feathers. I have been treating them for the last couple of weeks with Permectrin. 

I did see definite evidence of chewing of the tail and flight feathers on some of the birds ...the shafts of the feathers were just split apart... and some of the feathers looked eaten. Like when an Earwig chews on a leaf of a plant.

The new feathers on some of the Fantails that are coming in look like silky feathers...and the new feathers on some of the Silky Ringneck Doves' look very, very thin and extra silky in appearance.

The only thing different that I did this season was...a couple of times a week I added Baking Soda to their water...a teaspoon per gallon of water. I was told on another forum that this was good for bacteria and it helped in preventing canker.

Dawn


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Doves1111, 

I'm sorry, I really don't know what to suggest that hasn't already been discussed in this thread If you see evidence of "chewed" feathers, then perhaps there could be parasites present that you're just not seeing. Can you take one of your birds who is affected the most to your vet for a check up and/or observation?

This thread seems to be a testiment to the fact that there are many factors that can contribute to poor feather quality and it's just a matter of pinpointing the reason for each of us that are having problems.

My problems are likely to be very different from yours by the sounds of things.

Good luck, keep us posted about this!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska,

Ok, I was waiting for you to come back from your weekend before following up on your kind offer to help me figure out the other strange things going on with my birds that I mentioned 

Please, fellow members, don't feel that I don't trust your opinions or I think that they are invaluable but Alaska was the person who offered and suggested that I'd mention the "other" things going on with my birds. I'm sorry if I've hurt anyones feelings in saying this This is certainly not my intention because I see you all as my equal peers in pigeons, truly! I welcome and love to hear any and all suggestions or input if anyone is interested 

Alaska, I think we're on similar wave lengths on various thoughts about several things in regards to our observations of pigeons. I'm thankful you wanted to know more and possibly help me figure out what's happening now with my pigeons.

In summary, my two problems are somewhat related. I'll keep this as brief as possible. Out of my 4 pigeons, 3 have become basically flightless. Henny, Eggbert and Ricky will no longer perch off the ground at night when they roost. All 3 birds are content to stay on the floor of the room at night. Now, at first I thought this was due to them moulting and becoming grounded and not by choice. Well, it's apparent now that after nearly 2 months, and with flights grown back in, this doesn't seem to be the case. All three birds aren't exhibiting anything that worries me in behaviour, eating habits, or otherwise. They simply have stopped roosting off the floor!

Now, in connection to this, sort of....my young hen, Lucy is the ONLY bird that will still seek a higher roost at night. Every night she finds her way up to one of the various higher perches in her room. This is odd in itself because she's been the slowest bird in completing her moult of the 4-some! She's got all her flights in nearly now and has no trouble getting to higher ground come sunset, so why can't/won't the others? 

Now, with all this said..these pigeons are heavy birds to begin with, mostly reluctant flyers due to their breed but they still can & have managed to reach higher perches for roosting in the past at bedtime. Weight changes in all 4 birds are minimal at best...nobody has become obese and they have ample room to exercise their wings so they also shouldn't be out of shape in that way whatsoever.

Getting back to Lucy, her unique problem seem to be her left wing. She will often hold it at very odd angles and sometimes will even rotate it, like an athlete attempting to work the muscles in their shoulder. At times, she drags it around like it's broken and hurting her a lot. She does this weird adjusting motion all the time with this wing and it's VERY odd. BUT, again, she's the only flighted bird in the group and has no problems flying nor is she reluctant to fly!

Well, I think I've covered all the pertenant details with these issues. If I haven't, I know someone will ask a question that will remind me of something I've forgotten.

Thanks again to all of my fellow pigeon people, I don't know what I'd do without this group, honestly!


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## Doves1111 (Mar 5, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Doves1111,
> 
> I'm sorry, I really don't know what to suggest that hasn't already been discussed in this thread If you see evidence of "chewed" feathers, then perhaps there could be parasites present that you're just not seeing. Can you take one of your birds who is affected the most to your vet for a check up and/or observation?
> 
> ...


My birds' new feathers coming in look exactly like this...
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1768&d=1130252771

The barbicles are not together but are split apart like in a silky... http://www.kidwings.com/bodyparts/feathers/parts/barbicels.htm

Dawn


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi,
I think this thread has been a really great one, with much information put together about causes of feather 'problems'. As has been demonstrated there are many possiblilities and causes and all should be looked at as methods of correcting or the source of any 'problems' found in our birds.

As for you post about the strange things happening with your birds Brad...

You have mentioned two 'things' that are happening, 

-Lucy is rotating and dragging her wing plus holding it in odd angles:
I assume this movement is not the 'come to my nest' type wing shaking fluttering movement that pigeons do to attract their mate, another possibility may be she has a broken flight feather that she is trying to remove.
However, I think that this may be a sign of her having sore wing joints, she is flying up high at night, and then feeling the joints are sore from using her wings.

-Your other three birds are not roosting high at night like they used to:
Now being a heavier breed, plus they feel safe in their home, they mightt just be deciding to sleep on the floor, however as this is a change from previous behaviour I would also take this as a symptom.
So, three birds don't want to fly up high at night to sleep... Three birds don't want to use their wings...why? 
Perhaps they are experiencing joint pain aswell.

So if you look at it together, you have birds that are showing signs of joint pain.I don't mean to scare you, but birds with Salmonella experience similar syptoms including swollen joints and they can make twisting movements.

I can't say for certain, but it is a possibility for perhaps a trip to the avian vet to check for this or treat them with something like Baytril or Amoxicillian.

By the way, it's possible to get an infection even if you are perfectly wonderful in your loft care. Sometimes, an infection can be transmitted by feed that may have been infected by mouse or other rodent droppings prior to you purchasing it.

You mentioned that there are no others signs (like droppings or eye or nose problems), so if it is Salmonella, they are probably in the beginning stages of it and your keen eye has picked up on it before it can really cause any major problems with your birds.

I don't want to scare you, or say that it is definately Salmonella, but I think it is something you should check to be certain.

Regards
Alaska


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alaska, 

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I thought about the possibility of salmonella/paratyphoid, the fear is always in the back of my mind. I don't think it's a broken feather that is bothering Lucy though. It's really hard to describe what she does with this wing.

I'm going to try to get a video of Lucy doing this adjusting motion with her wing but she doesn't do it all the time. I may as well have some more droppings tested at the vets. I had the youngsters tested a few months back and everything was fine. No harm in having them tested again.

Thanks Alaska


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

As a runt can be over 3 pounds in weight. Its work to fly but a short low flight. Wings have to have strengh for flight. more ground time plus weight the birds fly little. I remember a person that raised many runts. He had about 50 to 75 at a time. Showed them often and did very well. His loft had a walk out in type aivery ramps. and in the loft low breeding holes. I never saw any of his birds gewt more then a foot or two off the ground. You could perhaps have a health issue. But the wing should be swollen have swollen bump or bumps. If you parathiopiod. And it takes a bird down fast when active. several birds become carryers. And have problems from time to time. Can be treated. But as said when active. it spreads. it takes a bird down fast. Pigeons will streach And exersise there wings. droopy wing if different then other wing can be a sore wing. Perhaps lower roosts not far from the floor could help. Any bang to a wing can bring a sore wing. Big birds do not gain altitude well They are like a large plane. Need more runway room.


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## alaska (Mar 17, 2005)

A video would be good to see how she is moving her wing.
Let us know how things go with the test, I agree, no harm in checking again, and hopefully this will rule out salmonella, or atleast diagnose it really early so you can get rid of it.
There may be other causes for this behaviour, so once we rule out salmonella we can think about it some more.
It may well be as simple as a slight increase in weight, as relee mentions, they are heavy birds and it take a bit more ooomfff for them to get flying.

Keep us updated
Regards
Alaska


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

re lee said:


> ...Big birds do not gain altitude well They are like a large plane. Need more runway room.


From what I've seen with Walter, descending is even harder than ascending. He uses every bit of 6' to go from his 30" high door to the floor of the flight pen. So different from the little birds that practically levitate.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Robert and thank you

Yep runts are definitely not fleet of wing feathers My birds aren't that heavy though, they all range around the 2lb mark, give or take a few ounces. 

It's just odd that they aren't flying now because they used to have no problem flying up to their perches about 3.5 feet off the ground and even higher too. Could be a combination of things as well. Henny is nesting as usual and her nest is ground level. Perhaps Eggbert just likes to be close by now, although he never chose to remain on the ground before when she was on eggs. Ricky seems to stick close to the mesh fence where Eggbert sits at night as well. Perhaps Ricky is following Eggbert's lead and thinks this is what he's supposed to do! LOL. 

I certainly hope it's not salmonella, and I tend to think this is not the case. I'm going to send in some fecals to my vet's this week and see what comes back. I'm going to also try to get a video of Lucy's strange wing movements for everyone to see. Although she hasn't been doing it much this week!

Terri, 

LOL @ your poor Walter needing all that landing space, hehehe Wow, my birds don't need the runway length that Water (the 747) needs...very odd

Our ultility birds ARE odd, Terri!


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Larger*

Breeds tend to weight more and stress thier joints.  I had a King called, Eagle, because this guy was oversized. Getting close to runt size. One leg started to bow.  Might consider roughing up the flooring or get some carpet pieces for them to walk on. Then when they get dirty,,you can throw them away. Might make for a softer landing for those that fly. And might encourage others to try flying. Land on a slippery surface could cause feather breakage and small injuries to legs, wings and tails. Try and think of it like an airplane. They might need a little landing strip. In my loft I use shaving or pine needle. Flight area is concert. It is rought up a bit. Being in the basement. You still could use those items. When cleaning them up just place them in a black trash bag and it is all done.


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