# Abnormally high singles



## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Anyone else having issues with abnormally high rates of single eggs being produced this year. We had 6 out of 15 breeders only produce one egg our first round and they sat it immediately. None of these birds were Old or first year breeders so age was not a factor. I have a theory on this but am curious to find out what everyone else thinks and their experiences on this.
Ken


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi KEN, How old are the hens, and how long have you bred these hens? Old hens and hens that have been heavy bred will lay single eggs before they dry up and stop laying. Young hens often will lay only one egg the first time,if this is the case then see how they do on a second time around.*GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I have had a few this year, and that's a lot because I've never had a hen that just laid one egg before. One is a 2002 hen. I've bred from her for about 5 years. Her first round, she only laid one egg and it was no good and she and her mate are in their own individual pen. The second time however she laid two and they are both good and should hatch Sunday. I've got another 2003 hen, who I've bred from for about 5 years and she always laid two eggs, but her second round was only one egg. I know of at least two fanciers who have had the same problem. So..........what's your theory? I'm curious


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Renee, I was just talking to one member in our club the other day and he had the same problem, from ten pairs he is breeding from only one egg hatch from each pair.
they were not young birds. I have not had that problem out of 11 pairs I breed from
young and old I only had one bird that hatch one egg. I could not answer his question
are did not know the reason, sorry I could not help. hope someone can come up with something.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Ken* this is not an abnormal fact, it happens...The only advantage about this is the parents can feed that young well compare to two babies...Sometimes the egg is not fertile and since there's only one egg you don't have anymore option but to wait for the next clutch...Like the one from Lovebirds (707) layed only one egg...*RK* remember that 707 had only one egg and 092 hatched it and now she is on the next clutch of 2 eggs so that's the good news about it but that's another story...SO just so you know this thing happens not only your breeders...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Wow.....it's very strange to me that this is happening to a lot of different fanciers in different parts of the US. I also had a few clear eggs which again, is something that I don't normally see. And if I remember correctly, 2 of those clear eggs were in individual pens, so there's really not reason that I can think of. None of my birds are that old. I've got 2 cocks, one is a 98 and one is a 99, but neither of those two had clear eggs. Strange............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pegasus said:


> *Ken* this is not an abnormal fact, it happens...The only advantage about this is the parents can feed that young well compare to two babies...Sometimes the egg is not fertile and since there's only one egg you don't have anymore option but to wait for the next clutch...Like the one from Lovebirds (707) layed only one egg...*RK* remember that 707 had only one egg and 092 hatched it and now she is on the next clutch of 2 eggs so that's the good news about it but that's another story...SO just so you know this thing happens not only your breeders...


I aware that it happens, but it seems to be happening MORE this year to LOTS of fanciers that it normally doesn't happen to. The only clear eggs that I've ever gotten were in my breeder loft, where there was probably too many birds and the cock couldn't finish what he started. I can understand that, but I can't understand how you can get a clear egg from a pair that have always been mated (not a new pair) and are in a pen by themselves with no one to bother them.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

maybe something about the feeds? how about doing a survey on this forum about the feed brand each fancier is using. nowadays it's hard to trust these processing plants. remember the peanut company and that contaminated pet foods recently on the news.


kalapati
San Diego
http://bluebarloft.from-ca.com:81/Jview.htm


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

I've had this happen to me too!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

* I have not had any of these problems here in Southern California.The weather here is much more milder then in Chicago or Virgina and this year your weather has been realy tuff this may be the cause of your problem back there.Just think about this the normal breeding season is in fact later in the year spring and summer. But we breed in the winter because of our race and showing seasons are at the time that are when birds normaly breed.Think about it.* GEORGE


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> but I can't understand how you can get a clear egg from a pair that have always been mated (not a new pair) and are in a pen by themselves with no one to bother them.


This is totally some strange phenomenon...*Gerald* I don't think it's about the feed...I don't think its about the age of the birds, because I have a male that is I believe he is about 10 years old and still produce some good fertile eggs, clutch after clutch...I was thinking maybe the egg processing in hens body weakens for some kind of reason? I don't really know  what to say about this....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Pegasus said:


> This is totally some strange phenomenon...*Gerald* I don't think it's about the feed...I don't think its about the age of the birds, because I have a male that is I believe he is about 10 years old and still produce some good fertile eggs, clutch after clutch...I was thinking maybe the egg processing in hens body weakens for some kind of reason? I don't really know  what to say about this....


 I agree I have a 13 year old cock that is still breeding for me and he currently has two fat little young in the nest.I also would point out that there are feeds that are treated with chemicals to cause infertily you never can tell it could happen that some of this could get into the supply of regular feed but that would be a local matter and not on a national level. .GEORGE


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

george simon said:


> *Hi KEN, How old are the hens, and how long have you bred these hens? Old hens and hens that have been heavy bred will lay single eggs before they dry up and stop laying. Young hens often will lay only one egg the first time,if this is the case then see how they do on a second time around.*GEORGE


George, They are no more than 5 years old and I have bred from them with no singles before. They are in individual pens so they are able to complete the deed. The problem is one of them is my foundation cock and he is a 2005 bird that has always filled his eggs. The 1998 birds have not given me any problems as they laid 4 eggs total and all hatched out fine.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Renee, I am wondering if maybe it is that the birds are overweight or the other theory is that there is going to be some kind of natural shortage of feed or bad weather this year. I watch the cycles of other animals and they seem to have a 6th sense as they will produce more young when the weather is great and the feed is abundant. The predator population increases when the rabbits produce more offspring, however if it is to be a bad winter I noticed the rabbit population in my area always seems to be smaller. Just wondering if our pigeons have this same 6th sense?????
Ken


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have had the same thing happening here this year. On this one round this year I have had three hens lay only one egg! I have also talked to others who have said they have had more single eggs this year than ever before. 


Ace


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

whitesnmore said:


> Renee, I am wondering if maybe it is that the birds are overweight or the other theory is that there is going to be some kind of natural shortage of feed or bad weather this year. I watch the cycles of other animals and they seem to have a 6th sense as they will produce more young when the weather is great and the feed is abundant. The predator population increases when the rabbits produce more offspring, however if it is to be a bad winter I noticed the rabbit population in my area always seems to be smaller. Just wondering if our pigeons have this same 6th sense?????
> Ken


Well, I've been told before that my pigeons are fat........LOL.........but they're not any "fatter" this year than they were any other year........
Maybe there is a 6th sense........I don't know, but it is VERY odd that this is happening to so many people. This is very interesting and more and more are posting saying it has happened to them.......UMMMM.......


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

me and my friend was talking about it too..... last sunday cause some of his hens just lay one egg and some fertility problem..... this birds are two to three year old......


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

Ive had two things happen that seem out of the norm. I have 2 pairs that have laid 2 sets of infertile eggs. They are now laying their 3rd set. All four of these birds are only two yrs old. 


All my other pairs didnt lay their 2nd round until the first round were 30 days old.


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## Bluecheckard (Jun 23, 2008)

maybe the cold weather this year is the one causing this.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm having basically the same thing happen here too. They'd lay two eggs, but for 5 pairs, only one hatched. Three of those pairs involved 08 birds, and one involved an 8 year old hen. All of those are understandable. Another pair of my breeders had both infertile eggs, but the hen was an 08 too.


I don't believe my breeders are too fat, I think they're around a good weight. My Old Birds have all had successful hatches, but of course they're the most fit birds in the whole flock. It's crazy how so many people are having problems this year. I've never had so many birds with problems breeding at once before.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Bluecheckard said:


> maybe the cold weather this year is the one causing this.


We've actually had more out-of-the-norm warm days this winter. Usually its cold all the way through, but we've had some random spring-like weeks.


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## ohiogsp (Feb 24, 2006)

Bluecheckard said:


> maybe the cold weather this year is the one causing this.


It has been the coldest winter here and I have had lots of problems in my out side lofts also.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

It is most likely the birds for what ever reason are not in condition. That is why, at least for flying breeds, i do not care for individual pens. (no real exercise.) There is no natural phenomenon that would cause this, in a loft that stays DRY. If you must cage breed make sure the breeders are getting a TON of flying before going into the pens.
Temperature has nothing to do with breeding EXCEPT real high temps.
This has been our coldest and snowiest winter in years, and my birds are going to nest. ( i have not even set them up for breeding yet.)
ALL are newly paired except for one, and they have a squeek about 12 days old, in a dry, but very open loft. Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

It is most likely the birds for what ever reason are not in condition. That is why, at least for flying breeds, i do not care for individual pens. (no real exercise.) There is no natural phenomenon that would cause this, in a loft that stays DRY. If you must cage breed make sure the breeders are getting a TON of flying before going into the pens.
Temperature has nothing to do with breeding EXCEPT real high temps.
This has been our coldest and snowiest winter in years, and my birds are going to nest. ( i have not even set them up for breeding yet.)
ALL are newly paired except for one, and they have a squeek about 12 days old, in a dry, but very open loft.(he is old and has never produced two fertile eggs per nest) Dave


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Dave, Do you fly in the Chicagoland area in a club or combine?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi. As stated in other posts, i no longer fly, to much time away from family, going to a bad neighborhood ect.
I flew with the West side club, Chicago combine. I also flew in a small club in Zion, Ill. years earlier, called the dependable pigeon club.
I flew partners with a guy that had a lot of the black eagle strain. 
BUT i have been involved with breeding pigeons and most other birds my whole life. My flock has changed but last year i had some homers (very few) birm. rollers, budapests, and oriental rollers.
The Westside club had some great people, and GREAT fliers! 
I have been a breeder of livestock of one kind or the other my whole life.
Health and condition i know, but I SUCK at color genetics! LOL! Dave.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

GEE! It just accorded to me i might know you! Send me a note. Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I had my first single egg this year. She was a 2004 hen with a new mate. First round. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lets get some perspective on this:

*Whitesnmore*.......6 out of 15 breeders only produce one egg our first round 

*Lovebirds*.....2002 hen laid one egg, 2004 hen laid one egg

*Lovelace*...friend who has one egg hatch from 10 different pairs

*Pegasus*....hen (from Lovebirds) that laid one egg

*Kal-El*.......I've had this happen to me too!

*George Simon*.........no problems

*ace-in-the-hole*.....On this one round this year I have had three hens lay only one egg! I have also talked to others who have said they have had more single eggs this year than ever before. 

*bloodlines..365*....me and my friend was talking about it too..... last sunday cause some of his hens just lay one egg and some fertility problem..... this birds are two to three year old

*maykuhn loft*........I have 2 pairs that have laid 2 sets of infertile eggs. hens two years old

*MaryOfExeter*..........I'm having basically the same thing happen here too. They'd lay two eggs, but for 5 pairs, only one hatched

*ohiosp*.........It has been the coldest winter here and I have had lots of problems in my out side lofts also.

*hillfamilyloft*.....I had my first single egg this year. She was a 2004 hen with a new mate. First round.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> Lets get some perspective on this:
> 
> *Whitesnmore*.......6 out of 15 breeders only produce one egg our first round
> 
> ...





LUCKYT said:


> It is most likely the birds for what ever reason are not in condition. That is why, at least for flying breeds, i do not care for individual pens. (no real exercise.) There is no natural phenomenon that would cause this, in a loft that stays DRY. If you must cage breed make sure the breeders are getting a TON of flying before going into the pens.
> Temperature has nothing to do with breeding EXCEPT real high temps.
> This has been our coldest and snowiest winter in years, and my birds are going to nest. ( i have not even set them up for breeding yet.)
> ALL are newly paired except for one, and they have a squeek about 12 days old, in a dry, but very open loft.(he is old and has never produced two fertile eggs per nest) Dave


Dave, with all due respect, I seriously doubt that all those fanciers listed above ALL have birds that are not in condition AND lofts that aren't dry......I surely can't explain why this seems to be happening to, apparently, QUITE a few fanciers.......but I don't believe that it's the reasons you gave. 
And, I've been breeding in individual pens for 7 years, and my pens are not cages.......they're 2 x 4 x 6 pens with attached aviaries on every single one. Prisoners don't get "flying time"..........and my birds get just as much exercise in the pens as they do in the breeding loft.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

My breeders are in cages, but I've never had a problem with them before. It is dry in both lofts though. We've got a light that helps dry out the place.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well you are not cage breeding then, you have your birds in individual lofts. BUT there is no nation wide reason for this.
Maybe someone put a hex on your loft. Maybe there is a supernatural reason for it! Maybe it is magic! 
Forty years of breeding tells me you are all missing, most likely all different reasons for it.
In one case it could be genetics, in one diet. ( oh yea, NOBODIES birds are FAT) LOL!(from what i hear about loft flying here MOST are! ) in an other parasites, in an other too much messing with the birds.
NEW pairs is another. 
I am not a popular person, because i tell the truth.
Breeding is not a real science, i think it is a mixture of art and observation, what do they need? why are they doing that and reacting to it. 
Gee! maybe you are all feeding a bad mineral mix(i doubt it)
A true breeder looks deep. out of respect for his breeders, and should not compare his or her loft to another(unless it is 1/2 mile away.)
DID your birds pick up something in the race basket? 
There are no global, or national problem going on with pigeon breeding.
Another is over medication, giving PREVENTATIVE meds. has NO place except during race season. even parasite meds. are all, to my knowledge TOXiC. Do you know how much toxin it takes to constantly worm your birds?
If you want to believe some weird thing is going on, fine, but it is just excuses. 
Dave


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Becky, THERE is a reason,. What is different this year? did you use the light last year? are your breeders getting older? (cage breeding effects old birds more than younger ones, diet change? THINK!


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

By the way, how many posters are there on this sight? So that makes the percentage what? 15 out of how many? Dave


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

LUCKYT said:


> Well you are not cage breeding then, you have your birds in individual lofts. BUT there is no nation wide reason for this.
> Maybe someone put a hex on your loft. Maybe there is a supernatural reason for it! Maybe it is magic!
> Forty years of breeding tells me you are all missing, most likely all different reasons for it.
> In one case it could be genetics, in one diet. ( oh yea, NOBODIES birds are FAT) LOL!(from what i hear about loft flying here MOST are! ) in an other parasites, in an other too much messing with the birds.
> ...


yea, you're right. We're all idiots that can't think. We just assume that there MUST be something "in the air"........how COULD we be SO stupid?? 
Whatever............I too say exactly what I think and tell the truth, so I can see that this conversation (with you anyway) will go no where fast.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I have the same problem, too, with my 2 years old breeders. She lays only 1 egg and if she lays 2 eggs, usually one of them is not fertile. I attribute this to her and her mate only because my other breeders are doing fine. I only have 3 breeding pairs. In fact, right now she just layed 1 egg couple of days ago. My other 2 breeders have layed 2 eggs. They are housed at the same place, eat the same food, drink the same water so I am assuming it is genetics.

Dave,
"I am not a popular person, because i tell the truth." LOL! Maybe it has nothing to do with truth, but rather the assumptions that it seems you are the only one that knows the truth and we don't!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

RodSD said:


> I have the same problem, too, with my 2 years old breeders. She lays only 1 egg and if she lays 2 eggs, usually one of them is not fertile. I attribute this to her and her mate only because my other breeders are doing fine. I only have 3 breeding pairs. In fact, right now she just layed 1 egg couple of days ago. My other 2 breeders have layed 2 eggs. They are housed at the same place, eat the same food, drink the same water so I am assuming it is genetics.
> 
> Dave,
> "I am not a popular person, because i tell the truth." LOL! Maybe it has nothing to do with truth, but rather the assumptions that it seems you are the only one that knows the truth and we don't!


LOL........then all of our birds must be related somehow.....that's it!! LOL
Just kidding you of course.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Well you are not cage breeding then, you have your birds in individual lofts. BUT there is no nation wide reason for this.
> Maybe someone put a hex on your loft. Maybe there is a supernatural reason for it! Maybe it is magic!
> Forty years of breeding tells me you are all missing, most likely all different reasons for it.
> In one case it could be genetics, in one diet. ( oh yea, NOBODIES birds are FAT) LOL!(from what i hear about loft flying here MOST are! ) in an other parasites, in an other too much messing with the birds.
> ...




Alright there! Rather than giving us the textbook from your "perfect loft" maybe offer some words of ecouragement! You know, for us beginners out there! Thanks, Matt


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Did you even read my posts? 15 out of HOW many? No loft is perfect, not even mine. In fact i am more casual than most breeders, BECAUSE i pay attention. If you had a sick child would you let your ego get in the way of healing it? I think not. You have not replied to my question on to as what percentage of breeders are having this problem. 
Words of encouragement? Want me to say it will go away the world is fine? 
When you are BREEDING there is a reason for everything! 
I, in the past, was famous for pushing it to the limit, learning the hard way. 
BUT i did learn it. If you want encouragement, do not settle on some great mystery, but go over everything.
I am NOT trying to be a know it all, BUT i know ALL problems come from management. MY birds are fine. If i was some arrogant dummy, why would i care about your birds? 
By trade i am a manager. There are NO great weird pigeon weather things going on. Lets see, there is no way to train around hawks, most here accept it, loft flying seems to be hard for a lot of you(I am not saying it does not take practice!) These are things that some people have excepted things because people told them so. NOT me!
The secret to caring for any living thing is you NEVER know it all, and if you think you do, GET OUT OF IT. Because you are not observing any more.
When i am asking questions, and i still do, i do not look for false encouragement, is this about your feelings, or the birds well being? Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You can't use statistical samples here from this forum because it is not a good representative sample of the pigeon world. Obviously if 15 out of thousands, then it is a random fluke that people have single eggs. Now if there is a pattern, then it is totally early to see if a particular problem is occurring. I think with young bird disease back in Europe it only started in some few lofts until people started noticing it and told other fanciers. Who really knows? At my loft I just consider it genetic because only that breeding pair is doing it.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

What pattern do YOU see?


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Lets see, 1 in ill., 1 in va., 1 in pen., 1 in NC., 1 in Mich., 1 in Ohio. Also 1 in mich., i believe? how about the others? oh yah, 1 in cal. That's eight, even if all the others were near each other,(which i doubt) there is no pattern Dave (did all of these people get birds from the same source?)


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

No pattern yet because there is not much data to work on. Obviously we can't deny that they got single egg as I did.

I think for Pegasus, he got the hen from Lovebirds. I think Ace got birds from Randy. I got my birds from a friend.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RodSD, the only pigeon world you need to deal with as far a weird things going on is were did you get your birds, and what birds have they come in contact with, oh yea, and who's loft have you visited in the past. Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave, I agree with you on those.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Wow did this get out of control fast. I dont get the angry attitude. A simple question with a bit of humor and panties are all in a bunch. I just left my club and had a discussion with our members. Guess what-----3 other members are having singles at a higher rate than normal. I personally have not done anything different with meds, exercise, feed, or lights that I have been doing all the other years Yet the first round is not doubles. I cannot explain it or I would change it. Sorry I started this thread.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

RodSD, you would not believe the friends and fanciers i talked to 20 years ago had the same problem, and after they looked at it they solved it. NO PATTERN no excuse. So if you really believe this, are you going to except it and NOT look at the real problems? it does no long term damage to your breeders to have a bad start to a breeding season, or a bad one. BUT there is a reason. 
This is not info. i am pulling out of my hat, i guess i should have mentioned i have given many seminars, in the long past on bird nutrition, and conditioning. 
I give up, if you think it is something out of your control, fine, let your breeding success stay as it is. At least 8 out of 15 from different states not likely any illness or condition from the outside of management.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Can not people have a lively discussion without people thinking it is out of control? God, the great debate is dead! LOL!
O.K. If something is going on, why do we not take a website wide poll and be proactive, instead of saying this is happening all over the place, and not doing any thing about it? I am open, PLEASE prove my strange theories wrong. 
Just for conversation, and i open my mind here,
1) we have to rule out weather, to many different locals.
2) i would think a bug is out because of the distance, and most likely all theses birds have most likely had no contact for infection.
3) Bad feed? again to many different locals.
4) Solar flares? i have found no info. on unusual flares.
5) lunar phase? I have not read about any abnormalities.
6) End of times? (sorry, just kidding on that one)
7) Pollution? I think the air have gotten better in the last several years not worse.(with out help from the last admin.)
8) I got nothing, how about you? WE have 1300 members at least!
At this point it is only 18 lofts all spread out, except near Chicago, i will try to contact some past flying buddies and ask them.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Me Too*

*Its what I call the Me Too Factor,Many But Not All will come to a thread and say they have this or that wrong with their birds. Just so that they can partake in what's going on in that thread. Once again I say THINK!!!* GEORGE


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

George, i may be wrong, and forgive me if i am, but i think you are agreeing with me. at least to a point. Dave


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

LUCKYT said:


> George, i may be wrong, and forgive me if i am, but i think you are agreeing with me. at least to a point. Dave


 HI Dave, Yes I am ....GEORGE


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

God, you made a life long friend! I thought i was the only voice of reason here, AND it scared me LOL! I would REALLY like to pick your mind on pigeons, what i would learn! Thanks. Would you please move to Ill. so i could talk to you in person? LOL! Dave


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hello All, Just to let ya know I haven't had any of my 7 pr. of breeders lay only one egg YET this yr. & haven't had any lay one egg for many yrs. & they were always Old Hens.. I like George am in So. Calif., but on the High Desert that is much colder than many places in So. Ca. as we are a 3,100 ft. altitude. Never heard of so many having this ONE EGG LAY in my 50 plus yrs. of Breeding, & Racing. Seems like most of ya are in the East, & a very cold yr. there. Only thing I can put together on this thread SO FAR is the Cold.... Happy


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,
I don't look for excuses. When I said it is genetics I mean that only on my loft. I mean if you house them the same place, feed them the same, give them the same drink, and yet they show different results, then only that breeders have something that others don't. In other words, all those birds are exposed to the same condition. Any difference will be then related to their genes. That pair I have been doing it since January 2008. My other breeders are doing fine. My friend who gave me that pair observed the same when he had them so when I related the story to him, he was not surprised. I still think there is no trend for single egg problem.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,
Here is one article I've read:
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...eon&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us&client=firefox-a

It says on one section:

"And then there are genetic problems. Some birds are just naturally poor
producers or even sterile. Some hens may persistently have single-egg clutches,
or double-yolked eggs. Some birds lay too soon, maybe in the same nest with the
squabs. Some embryos are genetically abnormal or even lethal, and may be unable
to hatch or to live long after hatching."

In our previous thread I mentioned why you always assume that I don't know what I am talking about. You know there are alternative answers, not just one.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

whitesnmore said:


> Wow did this get out of control fast. I dont get the angry attitude. A simple question with a bit of humor and panties are all in a bunch. I just left my club and had a discussion with our members. Guess what-----3 other members are having singles at a higher rate than normal. I personally have not done anything different with meds, exercise, feed, or lights that I have been doing all the other years Yet the first round is not doubles. I cannot explain it or I would change it. Sorry I started this thread.


Hello Ken,

Try not to become frustrated with the limitations of such a forum. There are any number of shortcomings in trying to find possible answers this way.

I myself had this exact same issue come up last year. I mentally came up with a very large list of things that could possibly explain why this was happening. It was fairly extensive, and as I went down the list, and checked them all off, I could not find one that seemed to fit. Had I not experienced it myself, and I was trying to help someone else, I may have simply dismissed it with a short off the cuff remark such as, 

1. You are over feeding
2. You are over medicating
3. Not giving enough minerals
4. Racing them too hard
5. They are becoming to inbred
6. They are overcrowded
7. Your neighbor got a color TV....
etc.
etc.
99. Cold weather

I never did arrive at a possible cause myself. The inbreeding idea I had to throw out, because everything went fine this 1st round. Many of the others did not seem to apply, because only certain pairs were affected. Perhaps if one could play 40 questions to those affected, and you could get straight, honest answers, perhaps a single thing would pop up...and we could say...Hey ! that is very odd, 57 people injected their birds with this particular batch of XYZ and all the hens only laid one egg !  But, I suspect, that this particular issue, will be more difficult to uncover. I did give a lot more minerals this year, for many more months before breeding this year....but I have no idea if that affected this year's different results.

My thinking is that nature does tell some animals to produce fewer offspring....perhaps through amount and/or quality of food, that times are hard. I didn't think was the case with pigeons...but perhaps on some level it does. Maybe it is also stress...which tells hen, things are a bit crowded...I mean how many dozens of things could it be ? If it is my neighbor's color TV, or sun spots...or the man in the moon, I can't control that. So, I did pay a lot more attention this year to my breeders, all through the summer, trying to get them into peak condition for fall. Don't have any idea if the additional plant things, or minerals, or the stuff I gave them, was the difference, or not.

So, don't be sorry for the thread. It is a good subject, that has affected some fanciers. Perhaps, even if by accident, some post just might spark a thought process, which might lead us down a road, to where that answer might be.


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## SouthTown Racers (Jan 14, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Did you even read my posts? 15 out of HOW many? No loft is perfect, not even mine. In fact i am more casual than most breeders, BECAUSE i pay attention. If you had a sick child would you let your ego get in the way of healing it? I think not. You have not replied to my question on to as what percentage of breeders are having this problem.
> Words of encouragement? Want me to say it will go away the world is fine?
> When you are BREEDING there is a reason for everything!
> I, in the past, was famous for pushing it to the limit, learning the hard way.
> ...



I understand what you are saying. Im just looking for a reason and possible solution to my problem. It is intresting though that people seem to be having more problems than normal.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> LOL........then all of our birds must be related somehow.....that's it!! LOL
> Just kidding you of course.


For this quote, I totally agree with you because I have what you had LOL ...

Wow! I miss those comments of Dave to Becky and Rod but the way I see it...I can only say what I noticed...Ask myself some questions and if possible I post it here...Like one of friend say what will be the world look like if we all get along, it will be a BORING place to live in...But that doesn't mean we shud attack and emotionally make that person shush because he/she state his/her opinions...

Once I put on my signature..."Everybody Is Entitled With Their Opinions But That Doesn't Mean You Are Right To Others"...

I think that make a lot of sense...State your opinion and it all depend to whomever to take your words...If the shoes fit wear it...


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Happy said:


> Seems like most of ya are in the East, & a very cold yr. there. Only thing I can put together on this thread SO FAR is the Cold.... Happy


If thats the case, maybe it is the cold weather that make our hen lay only one egg...Maybe another opinions will come out and speak about this thread...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LUCKYT said:


> Can not people have a lively discussion without people thinking it is out of control? God, the great debate is dead! LOL!
> O.K. If something is going on, why do we not take a website wide poll and be proactive, instead of saying this is happening all over the place, and not doing any thing about it? I am open, PLEASE prove my strange theories wrong.
> Just for conversation, and i open my mind here,
> 1) we have to rule out weather, to many different locals.
> ...


Hello LuckyT,

One thing you might consider, is that in the Homing and Racing pigeon threads, we are a very small community. Many of us here, have been here for years, and not weeks. I know myself, I sometimes sort of think outloud, on these threads and often I get a point of view I had not thought about. 

We use things like ...in order to better communicate, because there are a lot of limitations to the written word. Sometimes in our communications here, things can be taken much differently, then if it was a face to face communication. 

There have been times, when I threw my two cents into a discussion, and my choice of words casued a totally different meaning or thought process to be communicated. 

I don't think that most of us share our thoughts in a post, in order to prove someone else wrong, or to "prove" our views right. I know in my situation, I have learned much from these threads, if for no other reason, then it has forced me to articlate why I think the way I do. And even if I may disagree with another viewpoint, often it stirs up some additional thought process in my mind. 

I know that in my case, my thinking on a wide range of subjects, has changed since my first posts back in 2004. I thought I had a wealth of knowlege to share back then but looking back, at least in my case, I didn't really know all that much. And if the future is anything like the past, years from now I will look back at some of the posts I made this week....and I will think to myself, boy....my thought process on that subject certainly has changed. 

I suspect for instance, that your number 7) above, already communicates to me, that we are most likely at polar opposites in our views on many things. How that may affect our view in the pigeon world, only time will tell. But, I will take this opportunity, as I have others, to learn from the experiences of others. Hopefully, you will draw some of the same conclusions that I have. In that it may not be as important to know what you know...as it is to know what you don't know. 

From what I have read in all these posts within this thread, I think at least at this point, that no one knows what has caused some unknown number of fanciers birds to lay only a single egg. Perhaps it has been going on for decades, perhaps it has remained constant, perhaps it has been happening more then in the past. 

If we have it happening in more then one loft, then in my thinking, something has, or is "Going On"....it does not have to be widespread, or a National "problem"....if even a single fancier has had this experience, then there should be a cause and a possible solution. 

You listed what you think is Not the problem, what do you think is the problem. And I don't think a simple "Mangement Error" is going to do much to help solve the mystery.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Warren, you make a good point on the mineral supplement thing.
minerals should be fed long before breeding season comes. I feed red fortifiied grit straight oyster shell, and when i could find it, 8-1 mineral mix, on the feed which was made slightly sticky, with wheat germ oil or cod liver oil.
I also used to take a large aviary bird min. block and crush it up, or score it and have that for them.
Maybe in some of these cases, one egg was a "paper thin shell, and was smashed, and buried by the time the fancier noticed no second egg, rubber eggs are not very bulky when broken. JMVHO Dave


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2009)

I just want to throw my 2cents into the mix here as to the many things that were said could be the problem ..first of all I want to say that I am not having any problems with single eggs or infertility this year that I know of .. I am not the best loft manager when it comes to protocall either .. I will say I dont over medicate,prolly under medicate if anything , my breeder birds are kinda fat and they arent getting flytime as they are prisoners .. I dont cage breed in pairs all are loft breed ,they all get just regular grit , half grain / half pellet mix for food ,I clean the loft 2times weekly and its a little more on the crowded side then I would like..one more thing its been a very cold winter here too ...
Im sure theres lots more things Im doing wrong here but just wanted to point out that poor loft management isnt always the reason for problems in the breeding loft such as with the 1 egg clutches or infertility as was mentioned before  Like here Its always best to gather up all the info you can when you can from around other lofts an such together like they have here to try and maybe find some common ground that may be happening in hopes to fix the problem or at least to go from there .The world is ever changing and as adaptive as our pigeons are sometimes it just gets the better of them too.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Again, RodSD, my whole point WAS it is not one thing all the lofts are having a problem with. Many different things, genetics could be one lofts problem, minerals, as warren suggested, old bird, fat bird, ect. Warrens list was numbered to 99 LOL! 
The cold is a question, but i have never really had a problem with any winter breeding. Maybe i should clarify my feeding theory, when flying, control feed, when it is cold, or they have just stared to breed FULL feed. 
I like pellets during breeding (but not using them this year) fed in a rabbit type gravity feeder, with some grain hand feed once or twice a day. I feel pellets are the "perfect" main diet, one month before, and during breeding.
A balanced amount of protein, vitamins, minerals, ect. in each beak full.
I wish we had message boards, ect when i was young i would not have had to learn the hard way! LOL! I do not mean to offend, if i thought you were stupid i would not communicate with you. Dave.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Warren, there are reasons why it is happening, as i said. But there is a reason, one that would have to do with MANAGEMENT, anyone of the reasons listed. would be management, Feed different, more minerals, ( this is one i am now leaning towards, in some cases) ect. ect. There is a reason. that is all i ever said,.
I never blew anyone off with out some grasp of hope. the only reason i pursued it is because some people were thinking it was some ONE wide ranging problem. NOT. There is no such thing as a REAL mystery when it comes to living things, there is always a reason, in this case MANY individual reasons. 
ALL of us of are guilty of bad management one time or the other, ME TOO! (more than i care to remember)
The only way to learn with living things is to do it. i wish i knew how to put a wink here! LOL! Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,

OK. I understand now. Yes, I agree that there are possible reasons. I may have misunderstood you when I got the impression that all problems we are encountering are handler problem.

I remember using message boards using phone with limited computer power because I was a techie/nerd back then. I even learn computer programming and only 2 or 3 books can be found on a library. That was in the eighties. LOL! I don't remember having internet back then, but we tried to communicate with others by phone. Now almost everything is high tech and easy access. I really love the internet. Too bad that we still can't fully access scientific articles though.

rod


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Rod, your replies tell me, you are, or will be, a much better breeder, or racer then i am, or will ever be. I have about 20 years experience on you. 
I learned by screwing up, when i started getting into pigeons, the levi book was all there was i could find. No fliers near were i lived, only commons to play with until high school. My first pair of homers i bought at "canton" trade days while visiting my grand parents in Tyler Texas. My grandfather warned me i could not let them go, did i listen? NOPE, one week later when i let them out, OOPS! gone. the Levi book, "the pigeon"as old as it is still has lots of info that is very helpful today. It was and still is my "bible on pigeons, that and Rotundos,
"Rotundo on racing pigeons" were all i had. Rotundo was one of those guys that ticked off his fellow fliers, because he won so much. (Him, NOT me LOL!)
I still consider these books the best out there.
You have shown that you want to learn, and your replies show me you are open minded, you will do well. It is YOUR flock make them do what you want them to do.By the way, check out the new post on the Australian flier.
THOSE have racing TYPE, ignore color if you want to race! Thanks for your replies to my posts, A lot of people shut me out, afraid to see things that do not agree with. I only post my opinion! But people i flew with, never teased my birds performance. Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Dave,

Thanks for the compliments! I am indeed open-minded, yet challenges ideas from time to time. I am a biologist by training although my interest is far and wide which include non-living things such as car mechanics, computer, math, physics, etc. I've met many different cultures and studied with them. Some cultures and attitudes are in conflict with each other. I like healthy discussions. I have challenged my teachers both in high school and college with respect to their experiments/data. We only "win" if we can provide facts in those challenges against scientists. I have claim some theory which my teachers thought stupid because I can't provide data. That was fine. In fact even I provide data, the experiments must still be scrutinized and the mathematics used studied. Believe me that is hard to convince scientists. They are the most skeptical I've ever met. 

I came to this forum to learn a lot about pigeons because I know several have years of experience (just like you). I am then gathering what you can call empirical evidence from the field. After that I try to compare it with what scientists found as well and make my decisions thereafter. I like healthy skepticism. Sometimes people think I am obsessed with facts and use logic/math/science too much. I do that because everyone has opinions, but we may only have one fact. So if a fancier says something in the field and scientist says it is true,then to me it is very convincing.


rod


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

This has been a good thread...great discussion.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

fastpitch dad said:


> This has been a good thread...great discussion.


 I agree that this is a great thread and if people tell us how their second and third clutch goes it would even be better


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

theirs to much yadayadayada........ yadayadayadayada...... go back to the topic please..... ill figure it out......HUMAN ERROR....... case closed


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

you have to put the time in to get the answers you want out of it ..


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Error, is not he word i would use, more like learning "curve".
I take the blame for any problems in my lofts. The subject of this thread became, "what outside problem" is effecting my breeding/ egg laying.
It has been my whole point to show that it is not an outside condition responsible for less egg production. Dave


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Sometimes the obvious is what we overlook. It must be our mood that is portrayed onto the birds. When we watch the news and hear of the hard economic times, then go and feed the birds they have that sixth sense. They feel our fear, frustrations, and anxiety. They then think if they produce less youngsters that they will help us with the feed bill, less money to futurities, less money for trailers and training baskets. Fewer lofts being built and so on. 

I am also experiencing clear eggs, one youngster nests and yes that one egg nest. I come to one and only one conclusion. This is my fifth year breeding. My first year my birds went together the end of February when I got them. I had one clear egg out of 25 or 24/25 success rate. Second year they went together Valentines day. 92% success rate. Third year First of February 86% success rate. Last year, I had a harder time. I put the together the first of February again and the first round was not good. Clear eggs the issue. This year I put them together the first of January. Same issues. 

My two conclusions are this. And yes, I am to blame as much as anything. Both last year and this have been quite cold. I am sure frozen eggs is the issue. I am bringing the first egg in, but still might not be good enough. We have 50 degree temperature swings taking it close to zero every night. My thoughts are water might also be an issue. The water freezes at night and daylight is shorter. I do not have lights, so water is available for less time. 

The last factor that I can come up with is the birds condition. Mine are overweight. Also putting them together sooner adds more stress to them. More pairs breeding the last two years also adds to stress. Much interruption during breeding with a full loft. 

Last year and I expect this years second round hatch percentage to get back up to normal. Attributed to warmer temps, water availability, longer days, and the cocks sitting on nests during the day when it is time to tread the hens.

I am a bit worried about that digital TV thing though. 

Randy


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well put Randy. I still don't think cold weather has much to do with it.(just my opinion mind you! LOL! )
A NORMAL pair, close sits the first egg laid, and really starts to incubate after the second egg. I am sure some pairs parenting is not as good as others,but i can not recall ever having this be an issue.
I imagine in your location you have as you said great extremes in temps.
I feel having the ability to keep all lights on at LEAST 12 to 14 hours a day is a breeders best tool. Thawed water is critical, but to be honest i have only used heaters for the founts only in the last two years. I did have one for awhile while when i was racing in one of the five sections. 
We get REAL cold here. The saying used to be, "when do you want to band your first bird" The answer was: As soon as i get my bands, and i don't care if i DO wake up the race secretary, to get them as soon as possible! It was sort of a joke, but they were right in their thinking. If you wait till the traditional Valentines start to breeding, you are at a disadvantage, at least for young bird flying, because some flyer, you are competing with,will have young that are one month older than yours. If you are worried about them going into a moult to soon, work with your lighting.
I really dislike warm weather breeding, unless you "make your loft toxic" you will have to clean nests at least once a day, to keep the flies down and keep your neighbors happy.Not to mention how THAT would screw up and stress almost any pair. Not to change the subject, BUT i love too! LOL!
I have used CAREFULLY monitored no pest strips in warm weather, (picked up pigeon flies from the race basket) But i backed away because anything that kills them, and an earwig dead in its tracks will for sure screw up my breeders! Dave P.S. I do not think early breeding stresses them, in fact in my opinion, the opposite, less bacteria, the loft air is less humid ect. And the squeeks seem much more robust.


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

OK here is the update for the breeders that had only one egg the first time. We tossed the eggs or put them in pairs under pumpers and ALL of them laid 2 eggs this second time. I have candled the eggs at 6 days old and all of them are fertile and show natural formation. The only thing I did different was add more oyster shells to the diet. Maybe the hens were short on calcium. Now I am even more confused than before. I wonder if maybe it was because they were moved to individual pens at the beginning and they were not used to it but now they are??? Who knows but as they say alls well that ends well. Ken


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

We need to take into consideration that we are messing with mother nature here. The birds most likely are reacting with instincts to protect their species. In nature and even with the ferals down town, they are doing nothing but sitting on wires waiting for that internal que to mate. What we do is separate them shove them together Thanksgiving, turn on artificail light, give them frozen water and expect them to have a 100% hatch percentage because some guy with a heated barn or some guy in Florida had a good %. 

All I know from my experiences is that winter breeding is not as sucessful. Another irony is that my sucesses in Albuquerque have been with second and third round youngsters bred in May and beyond. 

I am sure that as the weather heats up, the days get longer, and the water thaws, that the birds will get back to normal and breed some plump youngsters. 

Randy

Randy


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