# Karel Wegge Pigeons



## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

How can a fancier in good faith advertise that he has the Wegge strain when according to Jules Gallez “ the death of this great fancier (Karel Wegge), the whole strain was spread to the four points of the compass, in 1897”?

Can someone give an explination how this is possible?


----------



## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Key word... "Good Faith". This debate seems to occur more often than not. Most fanciers in America "NEED" a so called strain for each bird they own/sell and a famous name is always "better", in terms of marketing. I am glad you mentioned the Wegge strain, I was unaware of the year this strain was dispersed. Quite amazing...


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well if they happened to get a hold of a good group and kept them "pure", then they are wegges.


----------



## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Well if they happened to get a hold of a good group and kept them "pure", then they are wegges.


115 years after the fancier died how exactly can you keep them "pure"?


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> 115 years after the fancier died how exactly can you keep them "pure"?


You can't really. Not if you want good birds. Strains are made up of other "strains" in the first place. The only "pure" anything is a really inbred bird.


----------



## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> How can a fancier in good faith advertise that he has the Wegge strain when according to Jules Gallez “ the death of this great fancier (Karel Wegge), the whole strain was spread to the four points of the compass, in 1897”?
> 
> Can someone give an explination how this is possible?


i dont think its possible .... i think once those last birds left mr. wegge ,and entered new lofts , they were no longer wegges , they were bred by ,and selected by ,the new owners and not mr wegge . and therefore should take your name, with the great mans name wegge in the background of the birds . 

so in my opion , no pure wegges , to be found on this earth .


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

*family tree of racing pigeons*

This is a poor copy but one person attempt to explain the family tree of the modern racing pigeon


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

if you look at the chart you will find three cities in Belgium whereby unlike pigeon took foothold in the infant sport. Antwerp,Liege and Vervier. Two fanciers Ulens and Delathouer. Later came WEGGE, Hansenne and Groters. 
Jules Janssen played a big role via Wegge's talents. His famous pair a red check Wegge cock mated to a VanSchingen hen(Delathouwer) were both Wegge breedings. This is the 18th century best pairing. These birds blood is still found in many hunderds of todays winners. So is there any pure pigeons today not very likely but you can have close families of (pure) blood or some will say a "strain" . I feel the name on the pedigree you have tells you more what type of bird you have based on it back ground. I have Janssen, Wegge, Fabry , Sion blood in my loft too and years from now maybe I will call my pigeons "Eric Strain " but I don't think I could ever take credit for what these men have done.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think the pure strains die with the makers of them.


----------



## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

ERIC K said:


> but I don't think I could ever take credit for what these men have done.


i dont think its about taking credit for what other people have done, there name may be in the background of your birds, but what you have bred ,conditioned, trained , and raced ect.. you should take responsibility for ,call them what you like, but they are no longer wegges ect..

its not to take anything away from these great men , as they have helped you along .i would agree, pure wegges died, when mr.wegge died .


----------



## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

Well they are going to be called Wegges, Staf Van Reet, etc, etc because calling them Johnsons (lets say your name is Johnson) will not get them sold. Unless your big time and won some huge races to the point where you are recognized among the pigeon community. 
I think if your birds are Janssen based then call them Janssens, etc. etc. No one is going to recognize Johnson.


----------



## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

First To Hatch said:


> Well they are going to be called Wegges, Staf Van Reet, etc, etc because calling them Johnsons (lets say your name is Johnson) will not get them sold. Unless your big time and won some huge races to the point where you are recognized among the pigeon community.
> I think if your birds are Janssen based then call them Janssens, etc. etc. No one is going to recognize Johnson.


maybe stick van in ... and it might sound better to some people , van johnsons , van this, van that, its comical to watch and listen to people who run around after names ,ive seen it ,some of these people are my friends, but wont listen, its a world wide epidemic ,and has been going on a long time, let them pave their own way i say .

different strokes , for different folks .


----------



## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> How can a fancier in good faith advertise that he has the Wegge strain when according to Jules Gallez “ the death of this great fancier (Karel Wegge), the whole strain was spread to the four points of the compass, in 1897”?
> 
> Can someone give an explination how this is possible?


 At one time it was thought to be mainly an American phenomenon, in that Americans were thought to be obsessed with the ancestry of the pigeons they owned. It was said, that Europeans were more focused on what a fancier's birds did in the races and often didn't even maintain pedigrees. I think the truth is many fanciers from around the world, like to point to a distant fancier, who gained fame in the sport, and say he owns birds descended from this great fancier. 

I am reminded of the various government forms we are asked to fill out from time to time, where for some reason the government is also interested in our pedigrees, and thus want you to check off a box to indicate what race (strain ?)you think you are. The odd part of this is I have noticed more choices are now offered, then say a few decades ago. And funny thing is, you are, whatever you say you are. 

I think the same thing has happened with pigeons, many pedigrees have a space to list what "strain" the bird is. Now, I suspect that fanciers want their pedigrees to look complete and authentic, so what does one do if a bird somewhere in the background did not have a strain listed on some old pedigree that a fancier now passed had provided to someone at some point. How hard would it be to simply help out by filling in the blanks ?

For all practical purposes, the term "strain" has been so abused and misused, that I can't see any benefit to it's use. Take a survey of the 18,000 some odd fanciers in the USA, and ask what "strain" has had the most genetic influence in their lofts, and I suspect the #1 answer would be "Janssen". 

So, at what point, do these pigeons start being called by some other name ? I think it has little to do with genetic honesty, it has to do with the success of the individual fancier flying the birds. The less successful the fancier, the more reliance on using the name of the last breeder who was successful. 

So for instance, if Lavender Hill Lofts purchases some of these "Karel Wegge" pigeons, and say you start winning and winning a lot. (most likely after you find some winners and cross them in) won't be long before the name "Wegge" is dropped, and the name of the Master breeder which is responsible for the success "Lavender Hill Loft" starts being used ! After the birds pass from your hands, the name Wegge" is dropped, and the LHL name is used. If you win BIG enough, then perhaps decades after your passing, someone will claim they are flying your birds. If at some point in the future, if someone takes your birds to a whole new level, then your name will be dropped, and the next great breeder will place his name on the pedigree as the "Strain". 

So, by my way of thinking, this person offering "Karel Wegge" pigeons, is communicating that no great winners have been produced in the last hundred or so years that these pigeons have been line bred. If theses pigeons would have made their way into strong hands, then the name of the next great Master would be on the pedigree. 

Well anyway, that is my explanation.


----------



## redleg23 (May 6, 2009)

Warren, your perception and detailed explanations are always a great joy to read.


----------



## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

id have to agree, nicely put, wise words and very true .


----------



## kcirtap18 (Mar 27, 2005)

i rarely read, but i read all of that..


----------



## italianbird101 (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm with Warren.


----------



## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> So, by my way of thinking, this person offering "Karel Wegge" pigeons, is communicating that no great winners have been produced in the last hundred or so years that these pigeons have been line bred. If theses pigeons would have made their way into strong hands, then the name of the next great Master would be on the pedigree.



EXACTLY!!!!!


----------



## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

Harry Shannon said that once his birds leave from his loft they are not Shannon's anymore because the person owning His birds wont be able to recreate the same condition that he has, even if He would write down what to do for them


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> EXACTLY!!!!!


My mentor gave me some pigeons with WEGGE in the pedigree back three and some four generations. He has been flying racing pigeons longer than I've been alive. He got his WEGGES from Arch McCauley and he flew for years too .Both men have great resultes .Where the McCauley Wegge came from I have no idea, maybe some one named Mayan. My guess is these pigeons have been passed down from person to person for years even hunderds of years.You can trace a dog pedigree to the first breeder so why do people find it hard to believe that pigeons can't be traced to the first person that put a name on the breed. If you looked at my post with the chart you can see where ALL racing pigeons came from this is not something pulled from the sky it is fact based on records kept for years. My mentor has 7 champion loft of the year awards, a life time achievement award from the AU. He has mentored many people and seeks nothing for him self and still calls some of his bird WEGGE blood I beleive the pedigrees that say these birds are breed down from the Wegge family of birds and carry many of the qualities that Wegge himself breed for in his time. Just as Mr Smith lays claim to LUDO blood in his pigeons , According to his own words he should call his pigeon Smith Family Pigeons and not refure to the name LUDO or Meulman. By useing those names He is telling us the qualitys of his birds that we all know with the words LUDO and MEULMAN sane as the person with the Wegge pigeons. For the sake of this rant we could say the Jules Janssen cashed in on Wegges work. Did he change the birds in any ways ... sure he did, but somewere out there is a person that kept the wegge blood by line breeding and inbreeding same as the Janssen Brothers did with their family of wegges. so the next time you look at a bird for sale you need to ask yourself , will you be better off with this pigeons blood in your loft or not just because the name and most important what are the resultes of this family of pigeons and did the person selling them win races.


----------

