# Eye worm or overdrug use?



## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Do you remember my two recent cases with pigeons having eye problems.

One of them, the small brown pigeon, lost his eye. This morning was still apparently ok but then I gave a dewormer and in the evening I noticed his eye filled with liquid and when I checked, the cornea was gone, the eye was flatened with nothing between iris and atmosphere.

The other pigeon keeps the eye shut and the eyelids are swolledn. CBL sent a photo to a vet she knows and he said is eye worm. The symptoms corespond, from what I've read on some chicken forums.

Have anyone meet this problem?




I also remember from an older thread that Jay said metronidazole overdose causes blindness. The two pigeons were overdosed with metro and I remember a case (pigeon died) few months ago with a pigeon also overdosed that developed some similar eye problem (a sort of film on eye surface or other kind of thing making the eye look a little whiter). For this reason, I was tempted to think that may be what Jay said. Is somehow possible the drug to accumulate in eye? I'm saying this because as I said, the pigeon appeared ok in the morning, was seeing with the eye and after giving a flubendazole drug, everything turned bad.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

AndreiS hard to say, could it be eye worm that is spreading thru the population or coincidentally a result of WAY too many meds or overdose you tend to mix too many drugs, jump around to many without doing a full duration of any one of them. Short of having one of them examined by a vet to see the eye and tell if it is in fact a worm or overdose, u may never know. You could also buy the aviworm or whatever Jerry said and see if that helps. The problem with guessing all the time is the amount of drugs you end up having to use. I had my birds fecal tested for both parasites and bacteria. Came back clean for parasites but low ecoli bacteria. Non pathogenic.

Why do you give so much metro anyway and not stick to proper dosage for proper duration? 
Just wondering whats behind your thinking.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your bird losing his cornea. I had a guinea pig that developed an abscess behind his eye that started with a tooth problem and the cornea just fell off. Hope you can narrow down what is happening to the poor birdie. Can you culture any liquid from the eye? Agree with CBL that a vet visit may be indicated. Hope he is ok.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Feeling so bad about birds... Meds are toxic and to be administered cautiously. Now if overdosed who has to suffer life long? 
Should go to a vet and get examined as CBL said.

Really hope it is not a case of overdosing.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

So sorry for the bad news Andreis. Considering the eye problems existed before you used medicine, and its more than one bird, you'd think its more likely to be the eye worm, like you and CBL have suspected. The timing makes sense too.

Mainly for now, I would want to get a topical antibiotic treatment for the eye. If the globe is punctured and leaking, its best to treat quickly, and stay on top of it. 

I have a dove here whose eye was punctured and collapsed by a canker mass as it was pushed out of the front sinus cavity. The resulting infection can be pretty bad and ongoing, so I'd urge you to get help fast.

Here's a link to a thread about some meds that worked for a pigeon with its eye pecked out. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/punctured-eye-23995.html

the vet prescribed oral antibiotics (Cefa) Opthalmic drops (Gentocin) and a painkiller (Torbegesic)


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Im wondering if you should get the meds and treat all your birds cuz if this is the second bird, maybe it has spread. See what you can do.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Good advice CBL; I checked out some of those chicken eye worm threads that Adreis mentioned too, and if the eye collapses from eye worms dying, its usually when there's an advanced infestation. The eyes should recover if the infestation is treated during early stages.

I noticed the chook people use something called VetRx for eye worm, which isn't an antibiotic or worm med. Its kind of like tiger balm, that you put inside the mouth, on roof the of the mouth where the sinus drains. I'm not recommending it, just noticed that that seems to be the remedy chook owners use.

And what an awful thing ! I'd be in tears to see this in my flock.


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## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Bella_F said:


> Good advice CBL; I checked out some of those chicken eye worm threads that Adreis mentioned too, and if the eye collapses from eye worms dying, its usually when there's an advanced infestation. The eyes should recover if the infestation is treated during early stages.
> 
> I noticed the chook people use something called VetRx for eye worm, which isn't an antibiotic or worm med. Its kind of like tiger balm, that you put inside the mouth, on roof the of the mouth where the sinus drains. I'm not recommending it, just noticed that that seems to be the remedy chook owners use.
> 
> And what an awful thing ! I'd be in tears to see this in my flock.


So true Bella.. Same feeling here. Can't see birds suffering so badly even when of Andrei, still they are whom we love. Really pray they recover.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I was wrong, the eye is still functional but there is a sort of slightly opaque (white) film over the globe which is punctured in one place and in that place the eye tissue is protruding outside like a small blister:















At the other pigeon, the eyelids are seriously swollen:











I've been treating both of them in last 5-6 days by applying a tetracycline ointment directly on the eyeball and to date I can't say there is any improvement.

From what I've read, the eye worm needs an intermediary host to reproduce:

_Worm eggs deposited in the eye pass into the tear duct, are swallowed by the chicken and expelled in droppings, and are eaten the Surinam ****roach

When a chicken eats an infective ****roach, worm larvae migrate up the esophageus to the mouth, through the tear duct, and into the eye _


Also, they are specific to warm zones, not exactly the casde of Romania.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Pls ask a vet to look at them. So many meds can't be good for the birds. If it is some kind of infection or eye worm a good avian vet should be able to tell. Am so sorry this us happening. Please be cautious with meds. Everything has risks as well as benefits.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The vet recommended the ointment but is a generalist doctor, not avian. There are no avian vets here.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Did the vet SEE the bird or just talk to you over the phone, I say go get it looked at and or cultured to get a definitive diagnosis asap. Also wondering if a worm is a worm is a worm or parasite, try the ivermectin orally, see if that helps.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes, he saw him. His clinic is 100 m from where I stay, I can see it on the window. 
But I tend to think the cause is metro overdose because I kept other pigeons in that place and who were equally immunodepressed but I not overdosed them and they didn't get the problem.

Nevertheless, the imflammation is probably of bacterial origin and in both cases antibiotic treatment is necessary. I don't know if some oral amoxicillin would be a good idea.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You do know that Flubendazole belongs to the same drug family as fenbendazole, and can be toxic to pigeons, right? That along with all the other drugs you give them can cause problems. Don't think an overdose of any one drug here is a problem. Just an overdose of the many drugs you put into them.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> You do know that Flubendazole belongs to the same drug family as fenbendazole, and can be toxic to pigeons, right?


No other dewormer dosed for birds here.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Andres, 

The Ivermec that you used before on the pigeon is a wormer. One of its side effects if overdosed is blindness, though not likely- but its possible if you used too much and didn't check concentration. 

Be careful with wormers in general, they are the riskiest drugs you have used, with very little margin for error. Jay is right about the risks of fenbendazole wormers.

Just regarding the possibility of overdose of metro, what dose did you give? I remember you saying it was thrown back up due to blockage in the throat.
Metro can be dosed up to 200mg (once off) according some of the old Harrison formularies, so its safety margin must be pretty large. 

Finally, what is the ointment you've been putting on the eye for a week? Is it human grade or animal grade? I would be considering discontinuing its use in case the ulcer burned into the cornea is a side effect.

When did you take the pigeon to the vet and was eye worm ruled out?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> Andres,
> 
> The Ivermec that you used before on the pigeon is a wormer. One of its side effects if overdosed is blindness, though not likely- but its possible if you used too much and didn't check concentration.


I have used Invermectin only against mites, puting a drop or two on the back of the neck. I don't remember to have used it at the pigeons in question.




> Just regarding the possibility of overdose of metro, what dose did you give? I remember you saying it was thrown back up due to blockage in the throat.
> Metro can be dosed up to 200mg (once off) according some of the old Harrison formularies, so its safety margin must be pretty large.


I mat have given around 100 mg. 



> Finally, what is the ointment you've been putting on the eye for a week? Is it human grade or animal grade? I would be considering discontinuing its use in case the ulcer burned into the cornea is a side effect.


It is a veterinary drug, containing tetracycline. You think it is this drug that caused the ulceration? Is very possible so I will stop using it. It is necessary to use any other drug?




> When did you take the pigeon to the vet and was eye worm ruled out?


I took both of them, the second on Friday, the first few days before. At that time, none of the tqo pigeons have been wormed already. This happened on Saturday.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

AndreiS said:


> No other dewormer dosed for birds here.


Probably not worms. Could be an eye cold. Try to get one eye cold med FOR cattle. As it will get rid of a eye cold. Then you might have another desease. Can not remeber the name now. Seems it starts with a S.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for helping me to properly understand the situation Andreas, thanks!.

My thoughts are you didn't overdose metro. 100mg was a big dose, not really an overdose unless given for many days in a row. Was it given by injection only?

Regarding the ointment in the eye, I don't know if you should discontinue. The eye looks like it needs an ointment. Can you get any different ointment to try in case it was an allergic reaction? 

Finally have you noticed it scratching around the eyes much? Those ulcers can be caused by a simple thing like an accidental scratch.

Really sorry you're going through this. The birds are so sick anyway, its been hard for you to work out whats going on.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Re Lee, previously, I treated for like 5 days for one eye cold with Doxyclicine, to no effect.

Bella, I'm pretty sure is metro. It happened to another pigeon that I picked two days ago and died yesterday of a very bad, unstopable candida. I gave a lot of metro (because crop was blocked with food and I hoped larger amount would mea some drug may reach the proventriculus) and noticed again the eye becoming witish.

The two bird in discussion were not scratching their eyes. One of them yawns somwetimes, as he tries to get rid of some discomforting condition in his mouth or throat.


Btw, now I have another rescue, a pigeon with severe coccidiosis and wet canker, as well as strong candida infection (white formations in mouth). The droppings yesterday were still solid, now are water of chalky-light green shade. I know from other cases that this is advanced wet canker. I gave him Fluconazole around 5 PM yesterday and Amprolium in the evening, as well as Coccistop (Sulfaquinoxaline) because there was a very strong smell of coccidiosis, that now is mostly gone. How many hours do you think I should leave before starting the canker treatment and what dosage I should use? Her situation worsens and I have to act quickly. She weights 170 gr.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> R
> 
> 
> Btw, now I have another rescue, a pigeon with severe coccidiosis and wet canker, as well as strong candida infection (white formations in mouth). The droppings yesterday were still solid, now are water of chalky-light green shade. I know from other cases that this is advanced wet canker. I gave him Fluconazole around 5 PM yesterday and Amprolium in the evening, as well as Coccistop (Sulfaquinoxaline) because there was a very strong smell of coccidiosis, that now is mostly gone. How many hours do you think I should leave before starting the canker treatment and what dosage I should use? Her situation worsens and I have to act quickly. She weights 170 gr.


Its hard on you with all these sick birds. Good on you for still trying.

I've never had problems giving canker meds with antibiotics right away when a bird is so sick , but not at the same time as amprolium. I find they will vomit if the amprolium is given with the other drugs, so maybe just a few hours wait is ok. I usually wait 8 hours, but could be ok to give other medicine sooner.

Regarding dosage of metro, it depends on what concentration is in the medicine. A tablet, powder or liquid is not 100% ,metro, if you see what I mean. They differ in concentrations.

You would aim for about 10mg of pure metro per kilogram of bodyweight, per day. So 20mg for your 200 gram bird per day is a low dose. 

Jay says that she recommends the high doses because the canker where she lives is resistant. I live in AUstralia and lower doses are ok for my wild pigeons, we don't have much canker anyway, and it clears easily with low doses.

195 grams is light, this one is really sick. I wish you luck!


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Do you not have metro and Intructions on how to use it on the package. Google Pigeon Formulary and they will have dosage. If I can find it in my ipad I will post for you.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Ok AndreiS read all of this and do whatever dosage of meds YOU have that matches any of these instructions for the duration it says.....

ANTIPROTOZOALS

Name: Carnidazole (Commercial name: Spartrix) 

Description: Carnidazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
Usage: trichomoniasis (canker).
Adverse reactions: None reported with proper dosage.
Dosage: One 10 mg tablet per pigeon on an empty crop,
Comments: Convenient one day dosage, but recurrence is quicker than with water treatments. Only drug labelled for use in pigeons in the United States.
Name: Dimetridazole (Commercial name: Emtryl - 40% water-soluble powder available in Canada) 

Description: Dimetridazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
Usage: trichomoniasis (canker).
Adverse reactions: Central nervous signs with overdosage. Fatalities can occur.
Dosage: 1 teaspoon per gallon for 5-7 days for the Canadian gallon (4.55 litres), 3/4 teaspoon per US gallon (4 liters) for 5-7 days (See: "Canker" in text for info on use of Emtryl in very hot weather).
Comments: Very good for flock treatment, legal in Canada but illegal in the USA. Overdosage and underdosage are common problems among fanciers. Under dosing, for example, has already resulted in the development of highly resistant strains of the canker organism in Europe.
Name: Metronidazole (Commercial name: Flagyl) 

Description: Metronidazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
Usage: trichomoniasis. Poorly soluble in water, so not good in flock treatment.
Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death.
Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily for 4 - 6 days.
Note: poor solubility in water.
Name: Ronidazol (Commercial name: Ridzol)


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

AndreiS can you copy and paste that info for future use, you seem to get a lot of rescues thanks.
CBL


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, instructions vary because it comes in different concentrations. 

When the dosage states 50-100mg per bird (not a very good way to state it), that's for an adult racing type pigeon around 400-500 grams. Its not for every weight, and not suitable for chicks at that dose.

You can give half or less for very light sick pigeons . This one is 200 grams , so I suggest that if you give 20mg a day, it will be a low dose that is safe. Increase if you think the canker strain is very resistant , or change to ronidazole.

But like CBL said earlier, it has a decent safety margin .


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Bella I agree they state guidelines but are probably for adult meaty birds so it is a good idea too use discretion regarding weight and adjust accordingly


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The poor bird died. I went to sleep around 4.30 AM when she looked discomforted and dizzy and now at 8 AM I found her dead. I think it was salmonella, not canker and I should have done a Lincospectin as usual with very sick bird.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> The poor bird died. I went to sleep around 4.30 AM when she looked discomforted and dizzy and now at 8 AM I found her dead. I think it was salmonella, not canker and I should have done a Lincospectin as usual with very sick bird.


Sorry to hear that Andreas. When they are that emaciated, its often several diseases and parasites at once that have overpowered them, that have been acting on them for some time. Sometimes cocci is the right thing to treat first, sometimes treating bacterial illness is more urgent. Often there's worms and canker as well and one of those is the worst illness they have.

You will have times when you successfully treat some pigeons , and you then you feel confident, but suddenly that doesn't work with a new bird. Its usual, please don't feel you did something wrong. What you did could have worked, you don't have a test lab to help. 

What do you think is going on with the flock, is it possible that these illnesses you see are the results of young birds dying off due to starvation and not enough food in the area to feed all the new babies?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> Sorry to hear that Andreas. When they are that emaciated, its often several diseases and parasites at once that have overpowered them, that have been acting on them for some time. Sometimes cocci is the right thing to treat first, sometimes treating bacterial illness is more urgent. Often there's worms and canker as well and one of those is the worst illness they have.


But usually, salmonella is the main threat because of its fast advancement. Or at least in my case, where the environment is contaminated with a "cocktail" of several diseases and an immunodepressed bird that I host, rapidly aquires more diseases, including salmonella. I usually give a Lincospectin shot which rules out the danger of sepsis (recently I saved another three higly emaciated birds, including the two with eye problems). In this case I was reluctant because of high infestation with candida and because at the previous sick pigeon (that died yesterday) the Lincospectin seemed to cause candida to explode.




> What do you think is going on with the flock, is it possible that these illnesses you see are the results of young birds dying off due to starvation and not enough food in the area to feed all the new babies?


You mean the flock from outside? My almost thirty birds that stay in my house (mostly free to fly outside and return) are stable and have good immunity. 

The sick birds that I got I either pick from street or I got from some persons that know I'm taking care of pigeons. In Bucharest, depending of zone, some have better or worse life conditions, in respect of crowdness of pigeons and hygiene. Food is usually not a problem, many people feeding them or food being thrown here and there by people (like pieces of bread). Because of much food available for them, there are very many pigeons everywhere, maybe as numerous as the humans (2 millions). Myself, I buy daily 10 or more kg of corn and wheat for the outside pigeons. But many flocks are used to search the food in some areas were is not a good hygiene, like garbage disposal areas or vegetable markets. Water also is a problem, not available in many places. Also, because the pigeons stay together over night in big number, those places become infested with the large amounts of droppings they pass. 

The number of sick pigeons seems not to be unusually high during this period, is just I get many because I'm looking for them wherever I go. And the ones I find are often / usually emaciated because of the diseases affecting them, usually bowel infestation, that makes them unable to eat hard food. Or because the disease weakens them and they can't compete with other pigeons over the food sources. Most often, are young adults (around one month of age) smaller in size than normal, sign that suffered of salmonella, coccidiosis or canker from early days of their life.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I usually give a Lincospectin shot which rules out the danger of sepsis and stabilise the bird (recently I saved another three higly emaciated birds, including the two with eye problems). In this case I was reluctant because of high infestation with candida and because at the previous sick pigeon (that died yesterday) the Lincospectin seemed to cause candida to explode.


That sounds like good policy, with addressing potential sepsis quickly. That often works for me too, though occasionally I get batches of very sick birds who won't respond until the cocci treatment. And the enteritis kind of looks the same, so I have become humbled by that.

How is the fluconazole going with addressing the candida? Were you out of it, or did you not want to stress the liver too much?



> Myself, I buy daily 10 or more kg of corn and wheat for the outside pigeons. but many pigeons are used to search the food in some areas were is not a good hygience, like garbage disposal areas or vegetable markets. Also, because the pigeons live in big flocks, they also stay together over night in places that become infested with the large amounts of droppings they pass. The number of sick pigeons seems not to be unusually high, is just I get many because I'm looking for them wherever I go somewhere.


Bucarest sounds like it has an amazing number of pigeons. Are they mainly feral grey type colours , or all different colors in the wild there? 

And you made me feel better, I used to feed the wild pigeons up to 50 kg of pigeon seed each week. They became very healthy from it though, I pretty much had no canker in them for the past 3 years, where it used to be a horrible problem, and I didn't get as many outbreaks of disease. But then of course I had the problems of them expanding as a flock, so its not easy to manage the wild ones...


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, am sad for the loss of your bird.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> How is the fluconazole going with addressing the candida? Were you out of it, or did you not want to stress the liver too much?


If candida is only on the bottom of the crop, blocking the proventriculus, nystatin, or even water with more acv (up to become sour when tasted) work perhaps better than fluconazole. The water with acv seems to wrok the best perhaps because it pnetrates easier the rests of food in crop, while Nystatin may be filtered by the food and have a delayed effect. I used Fluconazole especially when candida is visible in mouth or suspected to have entered the repisratory system, because in other parts of the body than the bottom of the crop, nystatin and acv have zero effect. And I noticed that if I give the recommended dosage, 1 mg, is usually inefficient, from at 2 or 3 mg, if the infestation is not strong, and if the crop is not blocked with food, usually the mouth plaques disappear in few hours.





> Bucarest sounds like it has an amazing number of pigeons. Are they mainly feral grey type colours , or all different colors in the wild there?


Mostly black, but also cream, spotted, white etc.




> And you made me feel better, I used to feed the wild pigeons up to 50 kg of pigeon seed each week. They became very healthy from it though, I pretty much had no canker in them for the past 3 years, where it used to be a horrible problem, and I didn't get as many outbreaks of disease.


I noticed too the pigeons in the area were I was giving the food to become healthier. 

What kind of canker were those outbreaks? Which symptoms? I presently have a problem with an unidentified disease, birds making some ochre yellow or yellow - green droppings, of solid constitution (not at all aqueous). I have given some treatments with metronidazole solution and immediately the droppings were turning to normal, dark color. But some pigeons seemed to not respond to the treatment, either they were drinking from other, outside sources, or they have a different disease with similar symptoms. The feral pigeons that come to my window, all seems to have this problem as I find only droppings of that yellow- green type.




cwebster said:


> AndreiS, am sad for the loss of your bird.


Thank you. I became sort of desensitivised after so many loses. But these events also changed me, moved my heart and expectations from life toward an existence beyond the material horizon.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> What kind of canker were those outbreaks? Which symptoms? I presently have a problem with an unidentified disease, birds making some ochre yellow or yellow - green droppings, of solid constitution (not at all aqueous). I have given some treatments with metronidazole solution and immediately the droppings were turning to normal, dark color. But some pigeons seemed to not respond to the treatment, either they were drinking from other, outside sources, or they have a different disease with similar symptoms. The feral pigeons that come to my window, all seems to have this problem as I find only droppings of that yellow- green type.


Thanks for the info about how you've been using the anti fungals/anti yeast treatments. I really appreciate your observations with how they work and don't work. Interesting about the higher concentration of ACV working so well too, that's good to know.

Regarding canker in my wild flock, well, I had mainly two types of outbreaks...the type that grew when the bird was sick with other diseases like pox and other viruses, and another where the bird was in the late stages of starvation, and had many problems including canker.

Pox is the only virus I could identity for sure because of the blisters. I think there's something else though. I'm trying out CBL's idea to increase probiotic use in my birds, which should help combat a hidden virus if there is one. You ever use probiotics? I mainly haven't because its so expensive, but I'm trying one I found at a pet shop that was priced ok.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> Pox is the only virus I could identity for sure because of the blisters. I think there's something else though. I'm trying out CBL's idea to increase probiotic use in my birds, which should help combat a hidden virus if there is one.


In order to heal faster the damages caused by virus, high proteic food is necessary. Spirulina given daily is also very helpful, as well as A vitamin and the usual B vitamins, probiotics, calcium.




Bella_F said:


> You ever use probiotics? I mainly haven't because its so expensive, but I'm trying one I found at a pet shop that was priced ok.


I have bough good probiotics but have not time to give to all birds. I refrain to sick ones. I always give probiotics when medicating. I think CBL's advice to give probiotics even together with antibiotics is smart, because the killing effect of the antibiotic take places few hours after ingestion and passing into blood and during this time some amount of good bacteria may be left to work. I noticed too the good aspect of droppings when following CBL's method.

I use human probiotics which are quite cheap, for a book I get a sacket with 8 billion, or even 24 billion bacteria.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I have bough good probiotics but have not time to give to all birds. I refrain to sick ones. I always give probiotics when medicating. I think CBL's advice to give probiotics even together with antibiotics is smart, because the killing effect of the antibiotic take places few hours after ingestion and passing into blood and during this time some amount of good bacteria may be left to work. I noticed too the good aspect of droppings when following CBL's method.
> 
> I use human probiotics which are quite cheap, for a book I get a sacket with 8 billion, or even 24 billion bacteria.


Thanks Andreis! I'm still thinking it over, regarding using antibiotics with probiotics together. My new probiotics state never to use with antibiotics, and I see the logic. But also can see what you mean about the antibiotics needing some time to work, which gives the probiotics time to give benefit to the bird. Mainly I would think if probiotics with medicine make a bird well, but the medicine alone doesn't, then to stop using the medicine because its the wrong one. Its hard when you treat blindly like we have to, you have to draw conclusions and hope they are the right ones. Sometimes they are not.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The antibiotics that are still in her system will kill the probiotics.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> The antibiotics that are still in her system will kill the probiotics.


Thanks Jay, that makes sense. One thought I had is that with water dosing like CBL did with the successful baytril/probiotic combo, perhaps the birds received an underdose of antibiotic due to drinking not enough? Then maybe the probiotics got a chance to sneak in and work? 

And what are your thoughts about probiotics retarding the effectiveness of antibiotics? Is that also a risk do you think?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe. Giving in the water you always stand a chance of under dosing. Don't see how probiotics can retard the effectiveness of antibiotics. Whether there are some bacteria or many bacteria, the antibiotic does what it was meant to do, and that is kill them. While on antibiotics, there is always some level in the birds system. And when you give probiotics to the bird, it just goes to work and kills them.
But not everyone sees it that way, so each to his own. Personally, I wait until after the antibiotics to give the probiotics. Just makes more sense to me.


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Edit......


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## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Jay3 said:


> Maybe. Giving in the water you always stand a chance of under dosing. Don't see how probiotics can retard the effectiveness of antibiotics. Whether there are some bacteria or many bacteria, the antibiotic does what it was meant to do, and that is kill them. While on antibiotics, there is always some level in the birds system. And when you give probiotics to the bird, it just goes to work and kills them.
> But not everyone sees it that way, so each to his own. Personally, I wait until after the antibiotics to give the probiotics. Just makes more sense to me.


Jay afterwards is good too. I tried that but birds weren't getting better. They kept relapsing. But for the direction of the vet, they would still not be well, but as u said, each of us treat our birds as we see fit. Im ok with that, just glad MY birds are healthy now and happy to share the success story. In regards to under dosing in the water, no way, thats why they dose for a certain amount of days, they take that into consideration. When nothing I did was working, I trusted the vet, and glad I did. Seeing is believing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I am just saying that when put into the drinking water, you can not be sure how much drug the bird is getting. That's all. When I have birds that need treatment, they get it individually. Then the flock would be treated in the water for prevention.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> My new probiotics state never to use with antibiotics, and I see the logic.


I used several human and one pigeon probiotic and only one was specifying when to give the supplement relative to antibiotic treatment, saying to be given *during* and after the treatment. Opinions on the subject (when to give, before or after antibiotics), are shared among vets and other specialists.



> Mainly I would think if probiotics with medicine make a bird well, but the medicine alone doesn't, then to stop using the medicine because its the wrong one.


Medicine alone makes the bird well, eliminating the pathogen. but the bird is weakened, both by pathogen and by antibiotic. The weakness consists exactly in the lack of good bacteria, as well as the lack of vitamins, minerals.

The only possible disadvantage of giving probiotics together or shortly after antibiotics is economical, that is, it may affect you financially, having to buy more probiotics. They harm in no way and there is no limit of their use, though in some rare cases, they may overmultiply and act harmfully to the organism.



Jay3 said:


> I am just saying that when put into the drinking water, you can not be sure how much drug the bird is getting. That's all. When I have birds that need treatment, they get it individually. Then the flock would be treated in the water for prevention.


If your bird is free to fly where he / she wants, there is a big probability to drink from other sources, as most medicines causes an unpleasantful taste to the water. but if youir birds are confined, water soluble medicines are preferable, as they are absorbed better and faster than solid drugs, which, like solid food as well, travel slower through the digestive tract. for this reason, I prefer water soluble drugs. Yesterday I bought a high precision scale (accuracy + / - 10 mg) and now am able to extract the dose for a single pigeon and give it individually.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you put meds in the water, sometimes they don't drink enough, especially if they don't like the taste. Even different vitamins will cause them to not drink enough. If they don't drink enough, they don't get enough. Also, when sick, they could drink more, or less than what they need. When ill, some birds drink a lot of water, while others don't drink nearly enough. It's always better to medicate individually when possible.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> When you put meds in the water, sometimes they don't drink enough, especially if they don't like the taste. Even different vitamins will cause them to not drink enough. If they don't drink enough, they don't get enough. Also, when sick, they could drink more, or less than what they need. When ill, some birds drink a lot of water, while others don't drink nearly enough.


There are some diseases that cause thirst, like Coccidiosis and all the other affecting the bowel and diseases causing lesser water intake, like infectious catarrh (at least, according to Chevita symptoms table).

Maybe that the thirst a bird feels correspond to the amount of medicine she / he needs, I mean, a higher thirst correspond to a more advanced infestation with the pathogen and requires a higher medicine dosage.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

No, the dosage isn't figured that way. 
Dose any way you like, but I'm just saying that dosing a bird in the water is not as reliable as dosing individually. That just common sense. Dosing individually, you are sure of exactly what they got. In the water, you are hoping so.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> No, the dosage isn't figured that way.
> Dose any way you like, but I'm just saying that dosing a bird in the water is not as reliable as dosing individually. That just common sense. Dosing individually, you are sure of exactly what they got. In the water, you are hoping so.


 I give water soluble metro and fosfomycin (I have a new bird with arthritis) individually. I calculate the amount of drug containing the recommended dose, put it in a small amount of water (like 2-3 ml) and give ALL that water to the bird with the syringe + tube. This way the bird gets the right dose, no more, no less.

With the amprolium, as I give it mostly preventive (only one bird is chronically sick and few others regularly infested by her), I put it all in water. These are the birds that are not allowed to fly.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> I think CBL's advice to give probiotics even together with antibiotics is smart, because the killing effect of the antibiotic take places few hours after ingestion and passing into blood and during this time some amount of good bacteria may be left to work. I noticed too the good aspect of droppings when following CBL's method.
> 
> I use human probiotics which are quite cheap, for a book I get a sacket with 8 billion, or even 24 billion bacteria.


Hope you don't mind me asking a few more questions? I have flock water treatment coming up and I'm feeling bit anxious to do it right. So far they are doing ok on probiotic, but there some wet droppings around still.

Do you have any opinion about how probiotics affect the taste of antibiotics in water, specifically would it make the water taste less bitter and they drink more, or the opposite effect? I know it would take a lot of observation, but wondering if you'd noticed?

The other one is do you know much about adding yeast to the probiotic? Some probiotics do have a `good yeast' included to prevent candida, but I went through the ingredients on mine, and there isn't any. I like this idea, since ACV in high enough dose may make the birds not drink enough medicated water.

I did notice too, in my research, that there is a swing around to using antibiotics and probiotics together in Humans. I read some of the studies, and while there are variables such as the antibiotic used, and the strain of bacteria in the probiotic, overall it is recommended now.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Bella_F said:


> Do you have any opinion about how probiotics affect the taste of antibiotics in water, specifically would it make the water taste less bitter and they drink more, or the opposite effect? I know it would take a lot of observation, but wondering if you'd noticed?
> 
> The other one is do you know much about adding yeast to the probiotic? Some probiotics do have a `good yeast' included to prevent candida, but I went through the ingredients on mine, and there isn't any. I like this idea, since ACV in high enough dose may make the birds not drink enough medicated water.
> 
> I did notice too, in my research, that there is a swing around to using antibiotics and probiotics together in Humans. I read some of the studies, and while there are variables such as the antibiotic used, and the strain of bacteria in the probiotic, overall it is recommended now.


Sorry for not answering, is only now that I noticed your post.

I didn't notice that the birds drink more when I put probiotics in water. I give them water in some small glasses which I wash several times a day and is hard to make an observation. They seem to drink more only when is hot outside.

About yeast: in Romania there is a product only for pigeons, that contains only yeast:
http://alexstroe.sunphoto.ro/DROJDIE_DE_BERE_PENTRU_PORUMBEI_1_KG_-_12_RON_SI_50_DE_BANI

The same company puts yeast in other product of them, which has as main component probiotic bacteria.

So I think yeast is beneficient. Probably there are similar products in your country (the Romanian company's products are all mirrors of foreign products).

About using probiotics together with antibiotics: maybe is better to delay at least few hours the administration of probiotics. I think in few hours the crop was cleared of antibiotic and the probiotics may have a good effect, even for only few hours, until the next administration of antibiotics.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

*Pigeon still keeps the eye closed*

More than a month later, the situation of the two pigeons with eye problem is this:

- the brown one completely recovered, apparently he / she has not any problem. Flies outside, eats well, both eyes are functional.

- the black pigeon on other side, keeps both eyes closed most of the time. He can open and see with both of them but it seems there is a factor which makes him prefer to keep them closed. The eyelids seem to not slide easily on the eyeball, either because the lacrimal gland are not functioning, either because the cornea has some diformity that make the internal eyelid not slide easily. After I administer some antibiotic ointment on the eyes, he keeps them open for few hours. It doesn't appear to be any liquid discharge in eye or nose. 

I supposed that the drug overdose lead to an accumulation of drug inside the eyeball. In the brown pigeon, there was a whitish spot on the cornea, which later became a hole and through that hole the internal liquid inside the eye came out, ans maybe the drug accumulation cleared this way and this is why he recovered. Maybe the black pigeon still has drug inside the eyeballs and they affect the lacrimal glands or don't let the internal eyelid slide well? Or maybe his eyes smarting?






Meanwhile, another rescued pigeon also keeps the eye closed. He / she had a bad case of sinus canker which now may have been cleared off. I treated him for like ten days but first days I made the mistake of giving him only 20 mg of metro / day (it was a water soluble powder product and I made a wrong calculation about the dose), then I switched to ronidazole (this was the reason I prolonged the treatment). He keeps the eyes shut because there is some pus-like discharge in eyes and nose. When I clean up this liquid from eyes, he keeps the eyes open. Until now I supposed the liquid is dead canker but it seems it doesn't stop. On other hand, it doesn't seem to get worse or to be any respiratory problem, it breaths normally. Can this be some bacterial issue associated to the canker?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

*Video*

I made a video with the three pigeons:

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjkJH_UFQV4*


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I noticed in his eyes some things that seems to be some eggs or maggots. They are very small, of elongated shape, 1 m long, white and have a regular appearance but don't move at all. I picked two or tree.

Any idea what can be?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

The new pigeon, which is sick with canker, seems to not respond to ronidazole. Maybe I'm underdosing? I was giving 8 mg / day for a small pigeon, like 220 grams. Is this dosage correct?


The canker passed from sinus to bowel and is manifesting by ochre yellow feces (no other modification of droppings aspect, which are firm and with urates). I know is canker from other cases, including one where the disease was identified by lab test.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

There is a thread on P.T. that gives this dosage for Ronidazole. By this post you are way over dosing.
How long have you been giving it to him?


Originally Posted by pdpbison View Post

*For Pigeons, Ronidazole is stated in the Pharmacopia I have, as being like 10 - 12.5 mG/k, orally, per day.

For a 200 Gramme Pigeon then, who is thereby right on to being about 1/5th of a "k", it'd be about 2 - 2.5 mG for a daily dose.*

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/has-anyone-used-this-ronidazole-tablet-48866.html


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you Jay. So, then, maybe the yellow color of droppings is from drug toxicity on liver.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

AndreiS, am so glad the brown pigeon recovered and that the black pigeon is doing better. All three are lovely birds! Hope this story is a reminder to all to be very careful and not over treat and overdose. I know you love your birds and I hope all three are healthy and happy very soon.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

cwebster said:


> AndreiS, am so glad the brown pigeon recovered and that the black pigeon is doing better. All three are lovely birds! Hope this story is a reminder to all to be very careful and not over treat and overdose. I know you love your birds and I hope all three are healthy and happy very soon.


Thank you!


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