# Whats the outcome of breeding a white grizzle with a splash bluebar?



## RamenNoodle

*white grizzle with a splash bluebar offspring?*

Just wondering, is it 50 percent either way?
just wanted to know what color of their offspring... 

Cock.










Hen













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## ljb107

Depends what you class as a white grizzle and what you class as a splash blue bar?


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## RamenNoodle

ljb107 said:


> Depends what you class as a white grizzle and what you class as a splash blue bar?


Not sure.. bought it from a buddy of mine..
The parents to the hen white grizzle, her father is a white racing homer pigeon and the mother is a racing homer bluebar..
Im not sure about my cock splash background...


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## Print Tippler

well, your get heterozygous grizzles. Thats all that can really be determined. May get some piebald and white flights on top of that.


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## Hareloft

I am sure you will get squabs


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## RamenNoodle

Print Tippler said:


> well, your get heterozygous grizzles. Thats all that can really be determined. May get some piebald and white flights on top of that.


I see.. 
yeah, I was hoping for more splashes.. lol


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## RamenNoodle

Hareloft said:


> I am sure you will get squabs


......


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## Hareloft

The only real way is to wait for them to hatch and feather out. I have a grizzle mated to a red check and I get a surprise every nesting I've gotten dunn checks and dunn bars red grizzles and blue checks and blue bars but no splashes or white grizzles at all.


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## RamenNoodle

Hareloft said:


> The only real way is to wait for them to hatch and feather out. I have a grizzle mated to a red check and I get a surprise every nesting I've gotten dunn checks and dunn bars red grizzles and blue checks and blue bars but no splashes or white grizzles at all.


yup, thats true.
Wow interesting. Thats nice than.
but yeah Ill just have to wait and see..
Whatever comes out its amazingly exciting. xD


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## almondman

I have moved this thread to the proper forum. You should get more responses to your question here.


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## tmaas

It may be easier to explain what you won't get from that pair. No ash red.


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## Print Tippler

This really isnt that hard. Theres a lot in genetics that is understood. The cock base color is blue the pattern is barred. He is has sooty giving him the little "false checks" in the wing shield. He has piebald genes. Those can be either dominant or recessive.

The hen is base color is blue the pattern is being masked but if your seeing black elsewhere in the wing other than where the bars would lie you can determine its not barred unless the cock was dirty. He is homozygous grizzle which means he has two genes for it. 

when you breed the two you will get the hen passing a grizzle gene to all the offsping everytime. You will not get a non-grizzle bird you will get all heterzygous grizzle birds. heterzygous grizzle birds do not look like the hen but what most people refer to grizzle. Your get sooty in the birds sometimes if not alway. The piebald may or may not be present.


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> This really isnt that hard. Theres a lot in genetics that is understood. The cock base color is blue the pattern is barred. He is has sooty giving him the little "false checks" in the wing shield. He has piebald genes. Those can be either dominant or recessive.


I agree with these statements, completely, but do think it wise to add that there is also a degree of bronzing in the pattern area, probably a recessive trait (or at least it is in my homer stock).



Print Tippler said:


> The hen is base color is blue the pattern is being masked but if your seeing black elsewhere in the wing other than where the bars would lie you can determine its not barred unless the cock was dirty. He is homozygous grizzle which means he has two genes for it.


I disagree here. This bird is not homozygous grizzle, since it has been stated that the parents were a white and blue bar (unless I misunderstood that post), so it cannot be homozygous grizzle. Instead this is a heterozygous white grizzle (a seperate dominant mutation), but I also think this bird is piebald in it's own right (whether dominant or recessive cannot be gathered from the information).

Breeding these birds should give you half white-grizzles and half non-grizzles, possibly with some bronzing.

It is more difficult to predict what the pied genes will do, since we have no idea if the two birds carry the same or related pied genes or not. In my experience, pied birds usually have offspring (at least one of the piebald genes in my loft are dominant, with 2 or 3 recessive ones), but your mileage may vary.

I wouldn't worry though, in my exerience it is easy to breed splashes especially if you have them. It is more difficult to breed solid birds, and remove the recessive pied genes from the gene pool. I started with 8 birds, 3 years ago, only two of which had any visible white (they were white flighted, but no other pied markings), and now I have half of my young birds from last season coming out pied, spashed or even saddle marked. At least 6 of the 8 parent stock carried recessive or dominant pied genes, with only 2 being totally free of these genes. Just my luck, I don't like pied and splashed birds, since it interferes with my other genetics projects, though I do love white flights


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## Print Tippler

rudolph.est said:


> I disagree here. This bird is not homozygous grizzle, since it has been stated that the parents were a white and blue bar (unless I misunderstood that post), so it cannot be homozygous grizzle. Instead this is a heterozygous white grizzle (a seperate dominant mutation), but I also think this bird is piebald in it's own right (whether dominant or recessive cannot be gathered from the information).


Heterozygous white grizzle? Never heard of that. Do you have any information on that gene? Despite presumed parents (open breeding loft?) it sure looks like a stork to me. I don't see how piebald is involved either, then again I'm looking thinking homozygous grizzle and not a heterozygous.


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## rudolph.est

Frank Mosca mentions it on his site, and says that in heterozygous state, white grizzle looks like stork mark due to homozygous grizzle. I think there is a picture too. The symbol - as far as I can tell - is G^W, as it is an allele of grizzle (unlike undergrizzle, which is at a different locus). As far as I know, there are homers out there in the US with the gene, though I am not sure whether that is the case elsewhere.

Becky has also talked about it on here once or twice, maybe she has some more info for you.

I am thinking pied, because there seems to be some parts (especially in the shield) that are just too white for even stork marked birds. The eye is also a little dark, though not quite bull... something I have seen in my pied grizzle homers. There seems to be at least some pure white flights, as well as a flight that is dark but has a white tip (a sure sign of at least a weak dominant pied in my birds). White tips on a dark flight is never part of the grizzle phenotypes.

Lastly, since the one parent was pure white, from experience I assume that there must be some pied there, I've never seen otherwise. (Though it is theoretically possible). People who bred white homers always mixed up pied white and grizzle and maybe some other stuff until they finally got a pure white bird. I have never seen a white homer that was simply recessive white, with no other pied genes, I haven't even seen an ash-red homozygous grizzle (effectively white) which didn't have some pied.


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## tmaas

Print Tippler said:


> Heterozygous white grizzle? Never heard of that. Do you have any information on that gene? Despite presumed parents (open breeding loft?) it sure looks like a stork to me. I don't see how piebald is involved either, then again I'm looking thinking homozygous grizzle and not a heterozygous.


Some years ago I purchased a white homer cock bird with four or five black feathers randomly located. Mated it to a black hen and produced about 75% black and 25% same as splash cock with a few additional black feathers. I continued mating splash offspring back to black and after six generations was able to finally achieve about thirty percent black feathers on the splashed offspring. Note: I always mated the splashes to unrelated black mates.


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## rudolph.est

tmaas said:


> Some years ago I purchased a white homer cock bird with four or five black feathers randomly located. Mated it to a black hen and produced about 75% black and 25% same as splash cock with a few additional black feathers. I continued mating splash offspring back to black and after six generations was able to finally achieve about thirty percent black feathers on the splashed offspring. Note: I always mated the splashes to unrelated black mates.


Sounds like you had a very strong dominant pied gene going there, though it sounds like it might have been 2 dominants that both have to be inherited, that would explain the 25/75 split. I have a similar phenomenon, but mine are pretty much inversed. My dominant pied always has at least 1 flight white as well as leggings and white toenails, sometimes also white spots on the head. From this bird I have 50% pied, %50 solid, but have only bred very few. Interesting thing is when this dominant of mine is combined with regular recessive splash, I end up getting birds that are saddle marked or whiter... Might be unrelated, I still have to do the required breeding tests to be sure.


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## tmaas

I seriously don't think it was a pied gene because almost no black feathers touched each other and were evenly spread throughout entire bird. Wish I would have mated one to a blue before selling them all !!!


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## rudolph.est

tmaas said:


> I seriously don't think it was a pied gene because almost no black feathers touched each other and were evenly spread throughout entire bird. Wish I would have mated one to a blue before selling them all !!!


We always run into this difficulty when talking about pied, the confusion of vernacular.

Pied is not a specific gene, which is why when I say 'pied gene', I mean a gene that causes white in a bird that is unrelated to grizzle (in the sense that it doesn't cause a grizzle effect). In other words, I called it a dominant pied gene, since the inheritance seems dominant, and the effect is pied (and not grizzle).

The person who does the research on the gene and it's inheritance is usually allowed to name the gene, and as such the gene you had in your loft could end up being called splatter, or painted or whatever else the researcher would want to call it.


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## RamenNoodle

Thank you all for the information.


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## MaryOfExeter

White grizzles in the heterozygous form are stork marked. Homozygous white grizzle are white with colored eyes.


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## Print Tippler

How did you get this information? Im looking for sources.


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## MaryOfExeter

Frank Mosca and his genetics friends


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## Print Tippler

So its never really been discussed publicly online (until now)? I appreciate the info but its kinda short.


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## rudolph.est

Print Tippler said:


> So its never really been discussed publicly online (until now)? I appreciate the info but its kinda short.


Many people in the know do know post on-line. 

If I need more info on specific genes, or even just be part of more in-depth discussions, I usually try the pigeon genetics group on yahoo. Most people on there are friendly and more than willing to share whatever knowledge they have. Otherwise send an e-mail directly to Franc Mosca, or Ron Huntley, and they will usually try to put you in touch with the right people.

As far as I know, white grizzle is only found in homers, and only in the US.


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## RamenNoodle

Yes they are finally on eggs!.. Ill let yall know the outcome..


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## RamenNoodle

The offspring looks like white grizzle but might be splash...
feathers havent comes out yet...just the needles.. 
Ill take a picture tomorrow..


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## RamenNoodle

Updated of pictures


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