# Beginner



## merlin6758 (Jan 28, 2012)

Hi I am new to this hobby and I am thinking of keeping between 4-6 pigeons, but I was wondering how much do you have to feed them and how often.


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

They do not require a great deal of food, but do need to be taken care of with fresh food and water every day.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

And veterinary care once in a while as well. (just thinking of costs you're going to need to think about.)


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi Marlin , Welcome to PT , beside building a loft and the basic suppy and other items like bowl and grids and some medicine , Pigeon cost is only the food mostly Sorry Libis i dont know to many pigeon keepers taking there birds to a vets , in fact i dont know anyone who ever took there birds to a vet , there knowledge about pigeons is not that great to begin with , more pigeon keeper have more knowledge in treating there birds then a vet ,the only time i would recommend a vet is for broken bones and deep cuts i will recommend a vet . in the computer age we in now you could find basically every thing you need to know about pigeon health on the net and how to treat them starting with PT , we do have some great knowledgeable people here , so don't get scare that keeping pigeons going to cost you a arm and a leg , unless you have a bunch of them then the cost will go up


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Rafael/PR said:


> Hi Marlin , Welcome to PT , beside building a loft and the basic suppy and other items like bowl and grids and some medicine , Pigeon cost is only the food mostly Sorry Libis i dont know to many pigeon keepers taking there birds to a vets , in fact i dont know anyone who ever took there birds to a vet , there knowledge about pigeons is not that great to begin with , more pigeon keeper have more knowledge in treating there birds then a vet ,the only time i would recommend a vet is for broken bones and deep cuts i will recommend a vet . in the computer age we in now you could find basically every thing you need to know about pigeon health on the net and how to treat them starting with PT , we do have some great knowledgeable people here , so don't get scare that keeping pigeons going to cost you a arm and a leg , unless you have a bunch of them then the cost will go up


Regardless one will still eventually need to purchase medicines/supplies for veterinary care--however they decide to provide it. And there are places that will do a good job with pigeons/birds. You just have to know where to look. I've seen too many cases on this website that might have lived had there been a proper avian vet involved.  

I'm not saying that they are hugely expensive birds to keep, but when budgeting one must budget for the worst. Also, when taking on animals, one must be ready for any expense that might occur. This is responsible. 

I do understand that there are many ailments that can be treated at home. I've also seen many people waste money on a lot of different treatments when a simple test of the poo at a vet's would have told them exactly what med to use.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

establishing a relationship with a vet is a good idea, does not mean you willl use them at every turn, but as libis said the fecal sample you can take and have tested could save lives just from knowing what medication to purchase from pigeon supply.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have to agree with both Libis and spiritwings. A responsible owner does look for a vet, even if you only need them for checking droppings. Good to know what to treat for when an illness strikes. Many have wasted lots of time by trying different things and guessing what may be wrong. A responsible person knows when they might need the help of a vet.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Well said jay


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Have to agree with both Libis and spiritwings. A responsible owner does look for a vet, even if you only need them for checking droppings. Good to know what to treat for when an illness strikes. Many have wasted lots of time by trying different things and guessing what may be wrong. A responsible person knows when they might need the help of a vet.


And trying too many wrong treatments weakens the body. When there is illness and extra wrong medications there is higher risk to the animal's life.


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## Rafael/PR (Sep 8, 2008)

your guys are making it sound like giving a poo or pigeon dropping to a vet is going to tell you what wrong with your birds every time,that only good if he has some type of parasitic in his intestines like worms yes he could tell you what he has but other then that poo will be useless . let me ask all of you who think poo will tell you all. How many times have you or your family gone to the Dr or hosp for a illness and the Dr ask for some poo (stool)??? , they want to take blood out of you to find what wrong with you first, the only time they will even think of checking your stool is if you have a stomach problem or you had blood on your stool when you went to the bathroom. A !BIG PLEASE! when someone that's new come to our site dont scare them that getting into the pigeon hobby is going to cost them a lot of money to maintain. that not what we all about in PT , but to encourage them and show them how without costing a arm and a leg , remember this our pigeon hobby is dieing in the U.S.A, but not over sea we need more people on keeping them here, sorry guys not trying to be a jerk or anything like that but i use to repair machines for vets and when i go there i see very few bird there or not at all just dogs and cats , they really don't want to be brother with birds , there is only a few vet that know anything about pigeons , again very few


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Rafael/PR said:


> your guys are making it sound like giving a poo or pigeon dropping to a vet is going to tell you what wrong with your birds every time,that only good if he has some type of parasitic in his intestines like worms yes he could tell you what he has but other then that poo will be useless . let me ask all of you who think poo will tell you all. How many times have you or your family gone to the Dr or hosp for a illness and the Dr ask for some poo (stool)??? , they want to take blood out of you to find what wrong with you first, the only time they will even think of checking your stool is if you have a stomach problem or you had blood on your stool when you went to the bathroom. A !BIG PLEASE! when someone that's new come to our site dont scare them that getting into the pigeon hobby is going to cost them a lot of money to maintain. that not what we all about in PT , but to encourage them and show them how without costing a arm and a leg , remember this our pigeon hobby is dieing in the U.S.A, but not over sea we need more people on keeping them here, sorry guys not trying to be a jerk or anything like that but i use to repair machines for vets and when i go there i see very few bird there or not at all just dogs and cats , they really don't want to be brother with birds , there is only a few vet that know anything about pigeons , again very few


we send the fecals out to a lab and they check bacteria, what type and provide the best medication againts that strain. a keeper can go in his loft in the morning and scoop up samples from differing areas and take them to the vet to get them checked for worm infestation and bacteria for the whole flock.. This is just another tool to use if you have bad droppings going on or even if you just have one pet pigeon. It really helps with the guessing game that goes on allot with folks who want to help their bird but are confused on what meds they may need to use. I have been totally wrong with my guesses and did find the right med for the problem.. and even found that I did not even need to use a medication on some occasions which is great. I think if more in the pigeon hobby would use it they may save themselves some birds and even some medications that they did not even need to use. overuse of antibiotic can be a problem in causing resistant strains by just using it nilly willy or guessing. a simple fecal sample for a bird if it is sick will not break the bank.. people need to know they have that option if they do so want to use it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, things become resistant to different drugs when used too often. That's why it's good to have a couple of different meds for the same thing. Good to change them out after a couple of times.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

I will put it to the beginner this way, the cost of you getting your pigeons and loft will be cheaper than owning a pedigreed dog in most cases. I raised dalmations years ago. I had real vet bills since at one time I had 128 puppies within 4 weeks time. Your pigeons will raise young and keep you in the hobby for years for nothing more than feed and wormer. I know there are illnesses they can get and the meds are not that costly. You need to get the basic meds and keep them on hand as getting meds for birds in alot of places in the US takes time as it is usually by mail. I have had pigeons for 3 years. I have more than I started with of both types(fantails and homers). My biggest expense was the housing. The housing though with being properly maintained last years. and with pigeons and other hobbies think over sized when it comes to housing. A full 4x8ft loft will hold 20 pigeons but it is big enough for you to get into and work. I keep fantails in something more like rabbit hutches that were made to hold puppies originally 3 ft deep(front to back) 3feet tall in front 2 1/2 feet tall in back and 8ft long, wire bottom, wire front all other sides closed. for none flying breeds I think this works good. I have to get rid of some fantails or make another pen soon but I was wanting to build them a large loft like I did for homers. with me doing remodeling I get alot of scrap lumber so my last loft cost me $300 to build a 6X8 and I wish I made it 6X12.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

128 puppies in 4 weeks
Kept puppies in rabbit hutches on wire bottoms
What's wrong with this picture?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> 128 puppies in 4 weeks
> Kept puppies in rabbit hutches on wire bottoms
> What's wrong with this picture?



Sounds like a puppy farm, doesn't it?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Got my attention!😱


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

almondman said:


> 128 puppies in 4 weeks
> Kept puppies in rabbit hutches on wire bottoms
> What's wrong with this picture?


It was a timing issue not a puppy mill like you are thinking. And yes 1/4 plastic coated hardware wire for bottoms. They had a bedding area that is now where nest boxes are. If you really know anything about dogs you would know it is a healthier way to keep puppies. Other option is concrete floors which are also hard on their feet and pull body heat causing illness that way but it can be sterilized. When you are dealing with a larger breed of dog that has 10-18 puppies per litter they add up fast. I had leased a high quality male for only 3 months and bred him to every quality female I had. I selected 3 for showing and sold the rest. No female was allowed to have more than one litter a year except when i got the deal of this stud. It is not like they stayed in these pens long term. It was from weaning at 6 weeks til 10 weeks max. and yes me and the kids commonly got them out and let them run around the yard. I got parvo on the next set of litters(think it was 48 total on farm then) even though they had been vacinated and lost alot of puppies. after going through that I reduced my numbers to just 4 dogs. Job got in the way of showing and other life changes and I quit breeding them at all. Never take a one line comment and think you know the whole picture. Did I make money from my dogs no because showing gets expensive. I cared about the dogs and the breed standard, puppy mills care about neither. Go in a vet clinic and see how they cage small dogs/puppies. The wire was so it could be sterilized and it did make clean up easier even though the poop stayed on top of the wire most of the time.

My point is if you really take care of a single dog it is expensive to have a dog. Regular vet checks and vacines then high quality food. But pigeons are cheap to keep compared to the dogs.


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## NewHopePoultry (Feb 7, 2010)

honeyrobber said:


> It was a timing issue not a puppy mill like you are thinking.[ /QUOTE]
> 
> All Im going to say on the subject is, it sounds like a breeding issue, not a timing issue...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

honeyrobber said:


> It was a timing issue not a puppy mill like you are thinking. And yes 1/4 plastic coated hardware wire for bottoms. They had a bedding area that is now where nest boxes are. If you really know anything about dogs you would know it is a healthier way to keep puppies. Other option is concrete floors which are also hard on their feet and pull body heat causing illness that way but it can be sterilized. When you are dealing with a larger breed of dog that has 10-18 puppies per litter they add up fast. I had leased a high quality male for only 3 months and bred him to every quality female I had. I selected 3 for showing and sold the rest. *No female was allowed to have more than one litter a year except when i got the deal of this stud.* It is not like they stayed in these pens long term. It was from weaning at 6 weeks til 10 weeks max. and yes me and the kids commonly got them out and let them run around the yard. I got parvo on the next set of litters(think it was 48 total on farm then) even though they had been vacinated and lost alot of puppies. after going through that I reduced my numbers to just 4 dogs. Job got in the way of showing and other life changes and I quit breeding them at all. Never take a one line comment and think you know the whole picture. Did I make money from my dogs no because showing gets expensive. I cared about the dogs and the breed standard, puppy mills care about neither.* Go in a vet clinic and see how they cage small dogs/puppies. *The wire was so it could be sterilized and it did make clean up easier even though the poop stayed on top of the wire most of the time.
> 
> My point is if you really take care of a single dog it is expensive to have a dog. Regular vet checks and vacines then high quality food. But pigeons are cheap to keep compared to the dogs.




Females shouldn't be bred more than once a year, regardless of any deal you get on a stud. Especially when you say you cared about the dogs.

And a vet/clinic is a different deal entirely. They are in there for treatment. Not for growing to be sold.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Females shouldn't be bred more than once a year, regardless of any deal you get on a stud. Especially when you say you cared about the dogs.
> 
> And a vet/clinic is a different deal entirely. They are in there for treatment. Not for growing to be sold.


Actually, none of the vet clinics I've volunteered at kept puppies or kittens or anything on wire, either. They just used sealed concrete that was easy enough to clean and sanitize. The zoo where I've volunteered does sealed concrete in their vet's office too for everything including quarantine. This type of concrete is fine so long as you give the animals a washable bed and untippable bowls and take the time to clean every day. Often more than once a day with young animals. Also, the breeders I've known/respected didn't keep puppies on wire or breed that many dogs at once. Ever.

On pigeons, it is better to find out exactly what bacteria is in the poop and use the right antibiotic than it is to try all kinds of meds, stress out the bird, and kill it. Or, even worse, to make the bacteria resistant because of over-use of antibiotics when they are not necessary. This overuse is how we got MRSA in humans, which is resistant to many antibiotics (like penicillin.)


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You have got to be kidding me.
Wire bottoms are wire bottoms, especially when you admit "poop stayed on top of the wire most of the time. Over time, plastic coating can wear off and expose the animal to sharp corners, broken edges, etc.

Concrete has been used in vet clinics for larger dogs forever with either a rug or pad to lie on. smaller dogs go into solid plastic cages with metal doors, again with a towel or pad to lay on.

You mention that you had larger breed puppies. How many to each rabbit hutch?
How big we're they at weaning to 10 weeks out. What breed?

Only one litter per year until you got the "deal of this stud". Then what?

You mentioned really knowing about dogs. I have over thirty years of experience in animal care including Vet clinics. I also worked in the military with over 250 german shepards that were housed in kennels with concrete floors. What you describe has PUPPY MILL written all over it.

Sorry Libis and Jay3. Was writing at the time you two posted.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

almondman said:


> You have got to be kidding me.
> Wire bottoms are wire bottoms, especially when you admit "poop stayed on top of the wire most of the time. Over time, plastic coating can wear off and expose the animal to sharp corners, broken edges, etc.
> 
> Concrete has been used in vet clinics for larger dogs forever with either a rug or pad to lie on. smaller dogs go into solid plastic cages with metal doors, again with a towel or pad to lay on.
> ...


He said they were dalmations 

Forgot to mention those awesome pads. They even use those with livestock/ungulates in some clinics/zoos.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Libis said:


> He said they were dalmations
> 
> Forgot to mention those awesome pads. They even use those with livestock/ungulates in some clinics/zoos.


Sorry - I missed the breed. Thanks!


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## Nomad_Lofts (Apr 12, 2011)

Why do some people start arguments back and forth over someone elses experience its not right and it gives the new visitors a bad taste in the mouth. may it be wrong or right it is that persons experience.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Nomad_Lofts said:


> Why do some people start arguments back and forth over someone elses experience its not right and it gives the new visitors a bad taste in the mouth. may it be wrong or right it is that persons experience.


Because wrong needs to be differentiated. And sometimes right needs explanation to show the logic behind it. For instance the bird vet and poo-testing disagreement just a bit ago.

Also, I'm not going to put up with allowing people to say any form of unsafe husbandry is ok.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

I will say this that i was told by my vet it is better to keep puppies off concrete as it sucks out there body heat. Adult dogs were kept in a shed with vinyl covered floor and large dog runs. Breeders can raise thousands of dogs in a life time and still be breeders. Puppy mills care only that the puppies bring money. Like our pigeons we raise alot of birds that will not be winners and will not even be good enough for breeders we use these as pumper or sell them off for people who just want to enjoy them. When you are breeding show stock of any animal you have culls. The cull puppies became pets. Instead of selling them as soon as they are weaned they had to mature to be able to pick out traits. I had only one regret from those 128 puppies at one time on the farm and that was not being able to keep more of them until they were older. My rabbit hutch cages were large 3x8 floor with a solid floor area for bedding. Health standards and breed standards were maintained. Anyone that know about breeding dogs knows 2 litters a year is not a good thing to do and only 2 dogs were bred twice in a year and then were given a year off. If you really have been around show dogs then you would understand leases of them. I have seen puppy mills and been part of the rescue effort. One of them built the pens over a small creek to use it as plumbing. You may disapprove of the puppies being on wire but you can not call a breeder a puppy mill. So the years I went without raising a pup in between at times because I was not needing more show stock were not even thought of by most of you. All you cared about was a single time large number of puppies and puppies being kept on wire and labeled me a puppy mill. I had a house dog a pom and she was never bred, we actually had her fixed. Like I said you take one line and blow it up in the direction you want it to go.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

honeyrobber said:


> *I will say this that i was told by my vet it is better to keep puppies off concrete as it sucks out there body heat.* Adult dogs were kept in a shed with vinyl covered floor and large dog runs. Breeders can raise thousands of dogs in a life time and still be breeders. Puppy mills care only that the puppies bring money. Like our pigeons we raise alot of birds that will not be winners and will not even be good enough for breeders we use these as pumper or sell them off for people who just want to enjoy them. When you are breeding show stock of any animal you have culls. The cull puppies became pets. Instead of selling them as soon as they are weaned they had to mature to be able to pick out traits. I had only one regret from those 128 puppies at one time on the farm and that was not being able to keep more of them until they were older. My rabbit hutch cages were large 3x8 floor with a solid floor area for bedding. Health standards and breed standards were maintained. Anyone that know about breeding dogs knows 2 litters a year is not a good thing to do and only 2 dogs were bred twice in a year and then were given a year off. If you really have been around show dogs then you would understand leases of them. I have seen puppy mills and been part of the rescue effort. One of them built the pens over a small creek to use it as plumbing. You may disapprove of the puppies being on wire but you can not call a breeder a puppy mill. So the years I went without raising a pup in between at times because I was not needing more show stock were not even thought of by most of you. All you cared about was a single time large number of puppies and puppies being kept on wire and labeled me a puppy mill. I had a house dog a pom and she was never bred, we actually had her fixed. Like I said you take one line and blow it up in the direction you want it to go.


This "sucking the heat out" thing makes no sense if they're given proper bedding and housed with at least two to a pen.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

Try laying on an air bed on a concrete floor. It will chill your body. Kind of like sleeping on a water bed without a heater.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

True show breeders breed for quality, not quantity. Your arguments fall apart when you have 128 puppies and expect us to believe they were all bred for show. You acknowledge that breeding more than once a year is bad, then admit you bred two dogs twice a year. Tell us you didn't profit from the puppies. How many did you expect to raise for show?You still haven't answered how many puppies per rabbit hutch. Maybe post some pictures. And when did you have these animals? Was it after the movie 101 Dalmatians came out and this breed was the next big thing? There were way too many stories like yours after that movie came out. Please note, these are my opinions based on what you have told this thread!

Nomad__Lofts - Its ok to have 128 pups, housed in rabbit hutches, on wire flooring that keeps the poop on the floor. This is not about starting arguments, it's about expressing disdain for something that just isn't right. As far as newbies to the forum - I would rather they would see this thread than to have them think we condone this type of operation by not saying anything. And by the reponses of the other posters I think the newbies will get it straight. I give a crap about his "experiences" when they might have jeopardized even one of the puppies. Where are your priorities?

As another member of this forum says in their signature "DO NO HARM"


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

honeyrobber said:


> Try laying on an air bed on a concrete floor. It will chill your body. Kind of like sleeping on a water bed without a heater.


Thus proper beds/bedding/pads (as used by vets and zoos) and keeping at least two pups together.

And I've slept on concrete with just a sleeping bag with no trouble except I could have used more cushioning like a vinyl pad or another sleeping bag.


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

honeyrobber said:


> Try laying on an air bed on a concrete floor. It will chill your body. Kind of like sleeping on a water bed without a heater.


I sleep in a water bed with no heat before and it sucks your body heat right out of you.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> I sleep in a water bed with no heat before and it sucks your body heat right out of you.


How does a water bed = concrete with a washable plush dog bed at all? :/


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

merlin6758 said:


> Hi I am new to this hobby and I am thinking of keeping between 4-6 pigeons, but I was wondering how much do you have to feed them and how often.


Well merlin6758, you certainly got your two cents worth here when you posted this thread.

You should maybe feed once or twice a day, depending on exercise levels. You will need to try a hit and miss amount of feed until you find out how much they will finish eating at each feeding. You do not want to over feed as this can cause fat piggies and any left overs can attract vermin. 
You should have fresh water at least daily, more often if it freezes, along with grit, and/or oyster shell. There is a debate on whether red grit or oyster shell is better, so if you can afford it, give both. 
other supplements/treats as needed/warranted. 
Keep all dry and in vermin prove containers. 
Clean all bowls at least weekly, or as needed. Make sure all are dry before putting feed, grit, etc back into bowls.
Clean perches, nest boxes, nest bowls, loft floor/walls,etc as needed. Some say daily, but at least weekly.
As already stated, finding a bird friendly Vet will be very helpful. Along with knowing that there are many experienced people on this forum to answer any and all questions you may have. Including loft size.

I hope this covers it all. If I have missed something, or given any wrong information, others can add/correct me as needed.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Rafael/PR said:


> your guys are making it sound like giving a poo or pigeon dropping to a vet is going to tell you what wrong with your birds every time,that only good if he has some type of parasitic in his intestines like worms yes he could tell you what he has but other then that poo will be useless . let me ask all of you who think poo will tell you all. How many times have you or your family gone to the Dr or hosp for a illness and the Dr ask for some poo (stool)??? , they want to take blood out of you to find what wrong with you first, the only time they will even think of checking your stool is if you have a stomach problem or you had blood on your stool when you went to the bathroom. A !BIG PLEASE! when someone that's new come to our site dont scare them that getting into the pigeon hobby is going to cost them a lot of money to maintain. that not what we all about in PT , but to encourage them and show them how without costing a arm and a leg , remember this our pigeon hobby is dieing in the U.S.A, but not over sea we need more people on keeping them here, sorry guys not trying to be a jerk or anything like that but i use to repair machines for vets and when i go there i see very few bird there or not at all just dogs and cats , they really don't want to be brother with birds , there is only a few vet that know anything about pigeons , again very few


When do you worry about pigeon poo? When you notice something abnormal about it. When do you worry about human poo? When you notice something abnormal about it. When do you ask your doctor to check your poo? Same as with a pigeon, dog, cat, whatever. Why do vets ask for a stool sample at every health exam? There are several threads going right now with pictures of poo asking what could be wrong. Yes we have many experienced people that can answer health related questions, but it's not always so easy to correctly diagnose a problem. There are many parasites, worms and other creatures that can cause bad poo. But there are also intestinal, bowel, and stomach diseases that can cause bad poo. Having a Vet, or a Vet's lab, that can check things at a higher level is a great idea. You won't always need them, but just like with humans, it's a good idea to know where you can go when needed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Nomad_Lofts said:


> Why do some people start arguments back and forth over someone elses experience its not right and it gives the new visitors a bad taste in the mouth. may it be wrong or right it is that persons experience.



So by your way of looking at it, dog fighting and cock fighting is okay too. It's that persons business, and everyone should just keep quiet and look the other way.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> So by your way of looking at it, dog fighting and cock fighting is okay too. It's that persons business, and everyone should just keep quiet and look the other way.


But don't you know, it's that persons"experience"that matters. Maybe it's MY dementia, but I just don't get it!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> But don't you know, it's that persons"experience"that matters. Maybe it's MY dementia, but I just don't get it!!!


I guess we're both demented then. Thank God for all the demented people out there who speak up when something isn't right. Animals cannot speak for themselves, and someone has to care enough to defend them. People who don't care are the ones who chastise us for speaking up. Shame on them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Sometimes I feel like I nit-pick things to death. I'm sure my wife would agree. I know I get carried away with some of my posts and I am waiting for the moderators to ban me. But when a person admits to doing the wrong thing after admitting he knows what's right, I can't help myself. And then someone worries about that persons rights to talk about the"experience" of doing wrong. ???????? 

The only solace we can take is that so many other posts shared our views and anger.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> Sometimes I feel like I nit-pick things to death. I'm sure my wife would agree. I know I get carried away with some of my posts and I am waiting for the moderators to ban me. But when a person admits to doing the wrong thing after admitting he knows what's right, I can't help myself. *And then someone worries about that persons rights to talk about the"experience" of doing wrong. ????????
> *
> The only solace we can take is that so many other posts shared our views and anger.



Takes all kinds, doesn't it?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The show breeders I know keep their dogs in the house as part of the family and so the pups are socialized that way.. not out on wire on a farm like a pack of hunting dogs.... so it does sound like money is the name of the game..sorry. just my opinion.. have not seen this person's set up so do not want to judge harshley, just going by the info brought forth. I think it is a good thing to speak up when one detects something not right. but in the end I suppose it is a matter of personal opinion. I have always heard wire is hard on the feet.


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## mysstic (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm a beginner too. Finding a good vet is very hard, especially if you live in a small town. I live in Cairns, and I have to agree, vets (here) don't have a great deal of knowledge about pigeons. They are used to treat cats and dogs. I took my four pigeons to the vet in Dec last year, one had a bad infestation, so the vet treated her with ivomec. But when I asked for advice with worming, because I had a problem with end wormer plus, my pigeon through out the whole lot, - she just said to buy wormout gel. That's not a very big help and as I read it's not a good product at all. 
But just recently, I found another vet, who's willing to worm my pigeons for free, she'd even come to my place to do it, as we could stress them out otherwise she reckons. Unbelievable!!! 
So unusual here for anybody to do anything for free!!!!

I only feed mines once a day before roosting time, and take the food away when they finished. Occasionally they get some treats during daytime, but i try to limit this to the min. ;-)
Water & bath bowl they have all day, I'm changing the water a few times during the day, as it gets very hot up here.


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