# Hen with flecking, het Rec red?



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Got a few racing homers today, I got an ash red hen and this is her tail, Is she het for rec red? Or is this the red flecking I hear Becky talk off on her youtube vid? If so its some pretty major flecking, Check out the tail bar on one of the flecks, And also it doesn't show that well in the photo but one of the flecks is dark grey - And again, yes it is a hen.

The flecks look redder in real life.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, that's the flecking I'm talking about and your bird should be a cockbird. If it lays eggs, it's a mosaic hen. The actual red spots are normal, especially for t-patterns. But I see blue/bar tail feathers indicating a cockbird.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It lays eggs


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well then you have a mosaic bird


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I'ts hard to tell but the bar you see is the same colour as red but slightly duller, It just looks blue in the pic. I will try get some under better lighting. Yeah the red spots on the rump are normal but not the tail bar and grey fleck.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Can she pass red or blue to her offspring?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

From what I've seen, het RR birds show it in the whole tail rather than random spots. But I don't know. What color were the parents? I remember reading how the mosaics pass on color but I can't remember what it said. I think both colors are up for passing along.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

So you saw it lay eggs or got the bird from a real trusted source? Well the simplest conclusion isn't always the right one. I have 5 pairs right now in my breeding loft that all young will be het RR but one case where it's 50/50. So I'm interested to see what they will look like.


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

In mosaics it depends on what the ovaries are if it is a hen. You can think of the mosaic as bits or sections of both types. If the ovaries are in the part of the bird that is red that will be passed on, if the part that is blue (or whatever) that is what will be inherited by the offspring.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Woodnative said:


> In mosaics it depends on what the ovaries are if it is a hen. You can think of the mosaic as bits or sections of both types. If the ovaries are in the part of the bird that is red that will be passed on, if the part that is blue (or whatever) that is what will be inherited by the offspring.


 Thanks Chris
Will mate it to a brown cock and see if I get red cocks carrying brown or blue cocks carrying brown, I am still doubtful that it is blue flecking though, I have seen a lot of blue flecking in cockbirds and I have never seen it look this red, Unless Its a mosaic for Brown which is unlikely as the guy does not have brown homers



Print Tippler said:


> So you saw it lay eggs or got the bird from a real trusted source? Well the simplest conclusion isn't always the right one. I have 5 pairs right now in my breeding loft that all young will be het RR but one case where it's 50/50. So I'm interested to see what they will look like.


Real trusted source, He has raced the bird as a hen for the last four years, Its mother to a nice big red cock in his loft, Yeah let me know how you get on with your offspring. There is no possibility its a cockbird.



MaryOfExeter said:


> From what I've seen, het RR birds show it in the whole tail rather than random spots. But I don't know. What color were the parents? I remember reading how the mosaics pass on color but I can't remember what it said. I think both colors are up for passing along.


He was unsure of the parentage without getting his records out. I agree wiith regards to the het RR birds showing it in their whole feathers, Not as spots like this one. Either way if I mate it to a brown cock I will know more, If i breed a blue its a mosaic.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

my friend have a pair of pigeon that keep producing mosaic black pied mosaic. some of there offspring have black shield and the other side is white


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

APF_LOFT said:


> my friend have a pair of pigeon that keep producing mosaic black pied mosaic. some of there offspring have black shield and the other side is white


Halfsiders (colored shield on one side, white on the other) are not *true mosaics*. Just a kind of pied.

Mosaics are the *most* misunderstood of the genetic terminologies that Doc Hollander et al. has brought into the study of pigeons genetics. All evidence suggests that mosaicism is genetic anomaly and *extremely* rare. *True mosaicism* cannot be inherited.

Wikipedia says: "In genetics, a mosaic or mosaicism denotes the presence of two or more populations of cells with different genotypes in one individual who has developed from a single fertilized egg." That is: If you cannot prove that two totally separate genotypes exist in a bird, you cannot prove it to be a mosaic.
From this definition it is clear that halfsiders do not have to be mosaics, since pied genetics can describe them equally well, and without the need to assume that an extremely rare genetic defect occurred. 

The bird in question on this thread _might_ be a true mosaic, but your friend's half-siders probably are not.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I dont think its a mosaic, Its wierd for an ash red hen to have coloured feathers in the tail like that aye? 

this is my mosaic


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

rudolph.est
yes maybe my friends pigeons is not true mosaic but it look only a mosaic. what the right word for this kind of pied it is half sider?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yup, I call them Pied halfsiders.

Rudolph, Have you had any experience with Het Rec red birds showing flecking like this one?

As I say the flecking is definetly red in real life. I wondered if maybe it was het rec red and also had picked up the gene I have heard mention off on here known as " super Flecking"


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## 2y4life (Apr 5, 2010)

Reminds me of a story about a homer guy who had a cock that he purchased from GFL as a YB. Looked like a cock, acted like a cock and he paired it up for two years with a hen...no luck. So he just let it free loft one day, he saw it pair up with another cock...sure enough eggs were laid.

Like they say, sometimes you don't know if it is a hen until you see it with your own eyes. With flecking, it's almost ALWAYS a cock.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

It has laid an egg in my presence. Its in a pairing cage with an old cockbird of mine so no chance he laid it. I get your point but the guy i got it off raised young race birds from it, he kept good records of band numbers so I had no doubt to what sex it was. Now I can with 100% certainty sat its a hen and damper all doubt. 

P.S. I expected a lot more comments saying its likely to be a cockbird.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Something I just learned is that the red flecking indicates bronze.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Something I just learned is that the red flecking indicates bronze.


Interesting, even when their is a distinct tail bar?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yup, I call them Pied halfsiders.
> 
> Rudolph, Have you had any experience with Het Rec red birds showing flecking like this one?
> 
> As I say the flecking is definetly red in real life. I wondered if maybe it was het rec red and also had picked up the gene I have heard mention off on here known as " super Flecking"


I am not sure what exactly the bird in question is. I have never seen flecking on an ash-red hen before, and have also never seen any flecking on recessive reds. My het rec reds always displayed some bronzing in the nest, but that always moulted away. I have never heard or read of any old hand geneticist claiming that split rec red can be identified in any way.

I am not keeping any rec reds now [they are a little boring in my opinion - red / not red does not make for a very interesting loft ;-) ]. But I also repeat my statement that not all genetics and combinations of alleles have been explained. As such, if one finds that one has a strange bird in one's loft that doesn't fit what we do know. Do some breeding tests, and figure it out!

Mating the 'hen' to a blue bar, would be a good start. This would allow the segregation of the ash-red from whatever else is going on. It is usually much simpler to define the trait, when that trait alone is acting on a basic wild-type. Adding ash-red and recessive red and who knows what else to the mix, just makes the tests too complicated.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Good advice, I do not have any spare blue bar cocks at the moment, She is paired to a **** red that carries dilute, I am trying to lock in the red and lock in the T pattern to my dilute project. The eggs to him are fertile so maybe a few more rounds and then I will find her a blue bar cock to go with for testing. Or if I breed a blue from the current pairing I know she is a mosaic carrying blue.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Interesting, even when their is a distinct tail bar?


On ash-red hens and cockbirds the red flecking indicates the presence of bronze. You can get enough red in a tail feather to give it a tail bar/spot tail. Bronze is what makes ribbontails after all. But if you're talking about blue flecks, even the ones large enough to make a blue tail feather with the bar and everything, that isn't normal for a hen. Red tints in the feathers can indicate birds being split for RR as well, but that doesn't have anything to do with the blue/brown.

The tail bar on your hens feathers is not ash-red based. It looks like brown or blue, even if it is reddish in color. An ash-red's tail bar or a bronze tail bar would be white or more creamy.


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## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Got a few racing homers today, I got an ash red hen and this is her tail, Is she het for rec red? Or is this the red flecking I hear Becky talk off on her youtube vid? If so its some pretty major flecking, Check out the tail bar on one of the flecks, And also it doesn't show that well in the photo but one of the flecks is dark grey - And again, yes it is a hen.
> 
> The flecks look redder in real life.



I think that is normal because some of my ash red hen have also flecking like that.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Got a few racing homers today, I got an ash red hen and this is her tail, Is she het for rec red? Or is this the red flecking I hear Becky talk off on her youtube vid? If so its some pretty major flecking, Check out the tail bar on one of the flecks, And also it doesn't show that well in the photo but one of the flecks is dark grey - And again, yes it is a hen.
> 
> The flecks look redder in real life.


*Hi Evan,First we must remember that Recessive Red is a modifier that masks the true color and pattern of the bird.We also must remember that recessive red does a poor job of masking the basic color, and your bird is proof of this.Your hen is a blue based bird and recessive red is doing a poor hiding the blue. There is no Mosaics its just a poor job of hiding the true color of the bird by recessive red. * GEORGE


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

george simon said:


> *Hi Evan,First we must remember that Recessive Red is a modifier that masks the true color and pattern of the bird.We also must remember that recessive red does a poor job of masking the basic color, and your bird is proof of this.Your hen is a blue based bird and recessive red is doing a poor hiding the blue. There is no Mosaics its just a poor job of hiding the true color of the bird by recessive red. * GEORGE


I disagree. There is nothing that makes me believe that any recessive red is involved here at all, much less homozygous recessive red. I don't know what the bird in question is, but I know it isn't rec. red.

It is true that homozygous recessive red has a hard time covering the darker colours, like blue, but we have an ash-red bird here, and the light tail would have been sufficiently covered by homozygous rec. red if it were in the mix.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

How would such a badly covered blue based recessive red look?
Never heard of that effect.


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

Henk69 said:


> How would such a badly covered blue based recessive red look?
> Never heard of that effect.


Like this;










Not a very good example, but you can see the blue round the legs and on the tail.

Lloyd


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

She is not rec red as Rudolph has said. I have bred some youngsters of her, All ash red so far, one ash yellow, they too have the same flecks. the ash yellows flecks are obviously yelllow and being a hen she has obviously picked up the same gene or gene combination as her mother. The ash red could be a **** ash red or a hen, a bit young to tell with that one. I will try get some pics but I am starting to wonder myself if it is some sort of gene similar to the super flecking gene we have talked off. My only question is why are ash red hens showing what appears to be ash red/ash yelow flecking. I also found that the guy had rec red meulemens in his loft so its possible she has picked up the gene. I will be putting one of her young back to her next season and If I get rec reds I will assume she is het rec red with the super flecking gene. Time will tell.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm wondering if this is an almond secretly. That would explain the flecking on the hen offspring.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

If this hen is Almond her hens would not pick the almond gene up from her. They would only get the cockbirds genes so im confused what you mean. Also she is not Almond, we do not have Almond racing homers in NZ.

Also the young is a very smooth yellow T pattern with absolutely no breaking - definetly not an Almond.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

One thing I can tell you all for certain is the bird is Ash red. I have seen her parents and traced her pedigree, There is a possibility she has picked up rec red but if she has it stayed hidden in a het form for 3 generations. Now I am guessing due to some other gene it is showing on this bird even though its only in a het state. remember that the flecking appears blue/brown in the photos but I can tell you without any doubt that it is the colouring of a poor recessive red bird. Looking at the pedigrees which are from a reliable racer I am still holding my money on her being het rec red. I am looking forward to putting her offspring together to see what comes out of it. I just wish I could capture the true colour of the tail flecks on the camera, I agree they look very blue in this pic but they are not.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Whoops, forgot about that. I doubt you'd have more than one crossover from the pair  So yes she isn't almond.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

ljb107 said:


> Like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No way that is a recessive red


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Henk69 said:


> No way that is a recessive red


Looks like one to me, Just a poor one on blue.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Looks like one to me, Just a poor one on blue.


I agree. Though I have never seen a recessive red quite that poor. I am sure it is likely, since all the other genes that might cause 'red' (such as indigo and opal) would have washed out the tail bar aswell.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

There is no reason at all why ash-red hens can’t have blue or brown flecks. This has been reported in many breeds before. Hens over 2 years of age will show flecking.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> There is no reason at all why ash-red hens can’t have blue or brown flecks. This has been reported in many breeds before. Hens over 2 years of age will show flecking.


One reason I can think of is that hens only carry one base colour, Therefore unless a hen is mosaic she can only be either Ash red, Blue/black or Brown.

Base colour flecking- generally found in cockbirds is caused by a second base colour gene so I cannot see how hens which only have one base colour in their genotype can have flecking which has been caused by a second base colour.

These reports you talk off, Firstly I can't understand why a hen would need to be over two for the flecking to show - secondly I would be interested in hearing whether the people reporting this conducted any experiments to find out what was causing the blue/brown flecking in hens and also what caused the effects to only be visible in the phenotype after the bird matured past 2 years..

I am Intruiged


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*3 base colors*

Evan,

First of all thinking pigeons have 3 base colors is wrong way of understanding the pigment production. Pigeons are able to produce 3 pigments which are black, brown and red, but that doesn’t mean they are 3 so-called base colors. 

If you like to read about what I wrote about this topic, visit my website at: http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp

Hens with black or brown flecks exist and that is in fact one of the reasons we think brown and ash-red may not be alleles after all. The reason flecking is more visible in hens 2 years or older is the same reason why any male ash-red with flecks get darker every time he molts. Dr. Smith at Goshen College is sequencing the genome of a brown bird as we speak. Within couple of years we will have significant amount of data to prove or disprove ash-red and brown are not alleles. There are a lot of biochemical reasons that demands they are not alleles. We will know soon… BTW I have an ash-red hen with brown flecks.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> First of all thinking pigeons have 3 base colors is wrong way of understanding the pigment production. Pigeons are able to produce 3 pigments which are black, brown and red, but that doesn’t mean they are 3 so-called base colors.
> 
> ...


I am sorry but until prooved otherwise I will stick with what the consensus is that pigeons have three base colours, Ash red, Blue/black and Brown. The reason I call them base colours is because all pigeons will carry atleast one of them in their genotype. Just like base patterns, They will ALL carry two of these genes.

I can understand why you say pigeons have three base pigments but these pigments cause the colour we see so to call them base pigments or base colours is a minor technicality to me.

Upon checking Rons index page he makes reference to ash red being the most dominant of the* three true base colours *and he also makes reference to brown being the least dominant of the *three true base colours*
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

I am interested in their studies and agree that we may find what we understand is not quite right but at this stage I will stick with what is understood and published which is

Pigeons have three base colours

Cockbirds will carry two of these and hens one as they are on the sex chromosome. Therefore a hen will only carry one of either blue/black, Ash red or brown where as cockbirds will show one of these pigments and also carry the least dominant hidden in its genotype, Or in some cases not so hidden.

One last question, Your ash red hen carrying brown, Has she produced cockbirds that carry brown? or do you have a brown you could pair her too to see if you get any browns in the F1's - Do that and I will believe she is an ash red hen carrying brown but until then I need more proove

Also your link did not work so I am unable to read what has been written but I am very interested


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

*Published Papers*

Evan, 

Show me any professionally published paper that says there are “three true base colors”? While you are looking for this non existing paper, here are some you should read:

Haase E., Ito S., Sell A., and Wakamatsu K, Melanin (1992). Concentrations in Feathers from Wild and Domestic Pigeons. Journal of Heredity. pp. 67-67.

And 

http://mail.sumnercomm.net/~rmangile/Pigeons/Biosynthesis of Eumelanin and Pheomelanin.html

You said: “Therefore, a hen will only carry one of either blue/black, Ash-red or brown….” Now let me ask you a question. How many genes does it take to make a bird to have wild-type phenotype (blue bar)? I say about 25 including ash-red and brown mutants. If you are looking to use the word “base” then only time you can use it is about black pigment and bar pattern. Because those are the base standards which we test every other mutants. 


FYI - Ash-red is not a color. It is a phenotype, so you can’t refer to it as one of the colors.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> Show me any professionally published paper that says there are “three true base colors”? While you are looking for this non existing paper, here are some you should read:
> 
> ...


All I know is my main sources for study have refered to them as base colours

Also I have witnessed all the rules that have been applied to the inheritance of these base colours in my loft and they are consistent with what has been read

I'll do some reading for sure.

Also, Have you bought this up on genetics for pigeons yahoo group? I would like to see some others opinions and discussions on the theory


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> Evan,
> 
> *Show me any professionally published paper that says there are “three true base colors”? While you are looking for this non existing paper*, here are some you should read:
> 
> ...


Ha? You want me to show you someone that you seem aware is non existing.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

All I am asking you to do is show me any professionally published paper that says there are so-called “three true base colors”. Show me any pigeon genetics books that says ash-red is a color. Ash-red is a phenotype. There is no such thing as ash-red color or ash-red pigment. Color and pigment are two different things. Many pigeon breeders misuse the words “color” and “pigment” and they are convinced that pigeons have three basic or base colors. The truth is pigeons have three basic pigments. Pigmentation is how the light observes the pigment granules inside the cells. In other words, pigment is the physical things (melanin) in the feather that produces "color". We now know that there are at least three pigments found in pigeons: brown / black / red and these are all different chemical forms of melanin that are deposited in their feathers. Black and brown are both eumelanin pigments. Brown is the result of failure of the very last oxidation step before the small molecules are polymerized to make pigment. Red is phenomelanin pigment. Red results from a very slow oxidation in the third small molecule step due to low tyrosinase activity giving time for the amino acid cysteine to add to the molecule produced in the second small molecule step. Thus the fork in the path of pigment synthesis that leads to red pigment happens quite early and is due to poor tyrosinase activity while the fork that leads to brown pigment happens very late in the small molecule pathway and has nothing at all to do with tyrosinase activity.

The article I asked you to read (Concentrations in Feathers from Wild and Domestic Pigeons. Journal of Heredity) clearly proves that even homozygous ash-red cocks and hemizygous ash-red hens have limited amount of eumelanin pigments and all the blue series birds have limited amount of phenomelanin pigments. If you like to continue to believe and study what is known as the Classic Genetics also known as the Mendelian Genetics, by all means believe what you wish. Just be aware that we live in a time where genetic studies are done in laboratories dealing with biochemistry, not in breeding cages anymore. If you like to keep reading 60 year old genetic books and stay 60 years behind our current understanding of genetics, I have nothing else to say to you.

Most literature about pigeon genetics start teaching the so-called the b locus mutations first, where ash-red (red pigment) and brown (brown pigment) are assumed to be alleles, and the wild-type gene (black pigment) in that allele series codes for blue/black phenotypes. Unfortunately, this method of teaching leads readers to believe ash-red and brown are more important genes than the rest of the mutations and genes found in other chromosomes. The base, or wild-type, in pigeons or any other animal is a genetic concept. It is a phenotype we get when the most common genes found in the wild birds are all present. Therefore, there can only be one base color for pigeons; it is the black pigment with the appropriate modifiers to make a blue bar phenotype. Every single gene that makes the wild-type must be present and function properly for us to see all the characteristics of a wild-type phenotype. When one of them is not functioning correctly (because of mutation), and that gene happens to be effecting the phenotype of the bird, then we will no longer have a wild-type pigeon. Therefore, no genes are more special than others. There are genes on the sex chromosome that are part of the genes needed to make black pigment, but they are no more important than many other autosomal genes which also help making black pigments. We do not know how many actual locus points there are on a chromosome yet. But it is imperative to understand that all genes that somehow alter the color and pattern of the bird from our standard blue bar phenotype are as important as the ash-red and brown mutations. Therefore, anyone who thinks that the wild-type gene at brown is the gene that makes black pigment all by itself simply misunderstands how genes work together. 

BTW. If me being a member of the following yahoo groups will convince you about my current understanding of genetics, Yes I am a member of [email protected], [email protected], and [email protected].


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand what your saying and maybe the way I look at things is not the best way but it has not put me wrong yet - Don't get me wrong, What you say makes sense and I am going to read the articles over and over as I do everything to make sure it sticks, Then I will observe my loft and others to see if what is written on paper comes to life

BTW, I never doubted your understanding of genetics and don't need convincing on that, My question was have you bought these subjects up and what discussions have been had on these sites as I would be interested to read others input and opinions on that matter.


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## amumtaz (Jun 13, 2007)

I am trying to explain 2 things here:

1- There are ash-red hens with black and brown flecking. Just because you haven’t seen one yet, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. 
2- Pigeons are able to produce three pigments on their feathers which are red, black, and brown but that doesn’t mean they are the three so-called based colors. 

Bronze phenotypes closely resemble each other even though we know for fact that they are not even alleles. Consider how much some homozygous recessive opals and homozygous indigos look like ash-red for example. Well, we now know that on a chemical level the same chemical pathway produces the pigment in every single one of the bronze phenotypes. So, all the bronze phenotypes (ash-red, recessive red, kite, indigo) in reality are just the result of decreased eumelanin (black and brown) pigments deposited into the feathers. All blue and brown pigeons have the same amount of red pigment (phenomelanin) as in all bronzes that it is overwhelmed by the black or brown pigments. In other words, pigeons have one or more of the three pigments deposited in their feathers. Therefore, to think pigeons have so-called three base colors which are only produced on the feathers of ash-red, blue/black (wild-type), and brown birds is wrong and misleading.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

amumtaz said:


> I am trying to explain 2 things here:
> 
> 1- There are ash-red hens with black and brown flecking. Just because you haven’t seen one yet, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
> 2- Pigeons are able to produce three pigments on their feathers which are red, black, and brown but that doesn’t mean they are the three so-called based colors.
> ...


I understand - I was having the same conversation the other day trying to explain to my friend that an ash red T pattern Velvet is at a guess very similar in checmical make up to a recessive red. The only difference being the colour of the tail, Although different genes were involved to get to the end result.

Just one thing, You say althought I have not seen one does not mean they don't exist yet you are telling me I have one in my loft - I have seen one in that case, I just did not understand what was causing this effect in her tail.

I am not disagreeing with the science behind it but I do think for simplicitys sake for a newcomer to genetics it is easy to explain using the three base colours/pigments as a starting point.


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