# Is it worth it?



## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

Say hypothetically that my wonderful wife were to allow me to spend a little money on a bird or pair of birds ($150-$400 range I guess) as a birthday gift..... How much of a pain is it to get birds shipped into the U.S. from Europe? Is there any sort of customs issues that should be anticipated or issues with the condition of the birds upon arrival? I really need to stay off of pigeonparadise, or I'm gonna be broke


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

The one to talk to on this would be Warren. I know that he has imported birds from Europe before. I know that there is a quarantine period before the birds are released to the owner but I don't know the specifics. Hopefully he will chime in on this one.

Dan


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I read that importing birds into the US from certain places had been temporarily banned, because of bird flu, it might be OK now, I'm not sure.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

It also could be tramatic for the poor birds. Just something to think about.


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## LuisO (Nov 14, 2005)

just a quick thought. Maybe someone else is importing them and you could probably save a buck or two shipping together??? I would look for good candidates. Might work out. I've done it before, but not with Pigeons.

Luis


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## LuisO (Nov 14, 2005)

I'd also look for that guys birds that are beating you every week here at home unless you are the top of the raace sheet. I can't wait to afford to go around and get local birds. Thats how I want to build my family. Birds that do good here now should do good here in the future...(I hope?)

Luis


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Hi ROXTAR,Why go to Europe to get birds there are plenty of good birds in this country after all we have been buying their birds for years and have their blood here.So find a good flyer here that you can get birds from,I do agree with LUIS O get birds from the best flyer in your area and build a family from the best of those.There is no such thing as instance success in pigeon racing it takes a lot of hard work and years. Most new people to pigeon racing that I have met are in a big hurry and that is their downfall.Learn all you can about racing and the race birds,make a 4 or 5 year plan and build a family that you can be proud of. GOOD LUCK .GEORGE


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

george simon said:


> Hi ROXTAR,Why go to Europe to get birds there are plenty of good birds in this country after all we have been buying their birds for years and have their blood here.So find a good flyer here that you can get birds from,I do agree with LUIS O get birds from the best flyer in your area and build a family from the best of those.There is no such thing as instance success in pigeon racing it takes a lot of hard work and years. Most new people to pigeon racing that I have met are in a big hurry and that is their downfall.Learn all you can about racing and the race birds,make a 4 or 5 year plan and build a family that you can be proud of. GOOD LUCK .GEORGE


O.K. let me play devil's advocate here a minute.

Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) have to re-invent the genetic wheel so to speak. I don't understand the argument that a flyer has to "pay their dues" to be successful. There is no reason that a new flyer can't, (if he is very smart, knows exactly what he wants and is a quick study), go out and get exactly what it is he or she is looking for and immediately be producing better birds than the majority of guys out there. It can and has been done. The problem as I see it is three fold.

First, very few people that are starting out really know exactly what it is they want in a colony of pigeons. Sure, they know they want winners, but _*exactly *_what kind of winners. They don't know where to find them or even where to start looking. Because the vast majority of the local fanciers don't really know what they have in their own loft, acquiring local winning pigeons might just be getting the best of the mediocre. Of course there are exceptions but I don't think I am too far off here. Besides, here in the states unless you live in Spring Hill, Fl. the most pigeons we will compete against is *maybe* 800-1000 and that is if you are lucky. In Europe those birds are competing against 8-20 thousand birds every week. Can you really compare apples to apples here? I don't think so. 

The second issue in all of this is that very few of us really understand what to do with our birds once we have them. We are a society of "what's in it for me now". We want the quick easy answers. The bottom line is that to really understand what we are doing as breeders takes a tremendous amout of research, investigation and time. Three things the vast majority of American fanciers are unwilling to invest in. 

Thirdly, there is another huge factor that weighs into this equation and that is the aspect of loft management in the early success of a flyer. I think anybody willing to learn what is neccessary can breed as good or better birds than anyone out there. However, the art of flying pigeons is not something that is learned over night and as we all know, mediocre pigeons that are managed well will win every time over the finest bird in the world that is handled ineptly.

In the end it is completely up to the individual. I, for one have no problem with someone going to Europe to buy birds as long as they understand what they are looking at. There are bad birds over there just like there are great ones here. I just think that the competative edge and the intensity of selective pressure has to go to the Europeans in general. Can you find great birds here...of course. I just am not willing to condemn a guy that wants, and can justify, purchasing birds from over seas.

Not trying to ruffle feathers here...just an opinion.

Dan


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

learning said:


> O.K. let me play devil's advocate here a minute.
> 
> Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) have to re-invent the genetic wheel so to speak. I don't understand the argument that a flyer has to "pay their dues" to be successful. There is no reason that a new flyer can't, (if he is very smart, knows exactly what he wants and is a quick study), go out and get exactly what it is he or she is looking for and immediately be producing better birds than the majority of guys out there. It can and has been done. The problem as I see it is three fold.
> 
> ...


 While it is true that Europe bird compet at a larger level. Birds have been imported for many many years. And it would seem that the American flyers would by now have an idea on breeding top birds. IT is not that hard IT JUST TAKES TIME. That is where many a flyer fails they want to win now. That is the key it is taking the time to build the birds. Yes I have nothing wrong witrh getting birds out of crountry. BUT you know the over all cost of importing top birds. Race birds are a gamble unless you buy winers that have bred winners. Then you have a faster start. Perhaps one day the race people other then the few that do will learn not to be in a hurry


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

Whoah guys, I was just inquiring about the process..... 

I think that the availability of good birds here in the U.S. has probably eliminated the need to import birds from Europe for the purposes that I'd want them for right now. I don't think that i could ever warrant spending that kind of dough on a bird while just flying with a club/combine and no intention of selling offspring in order to recoup my investent. 
I might think about it one day if I ever get to the point where I'm flying in futurities or one loft races but right now I think it would kind of be trying to run before I can crawl. I am looking to buy a pair of breeders some time before Christmas but importing birds I think would be out of the question save for some very unlikely circumstances. 

J


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Roxstar

In a sense it is true that you can get birds in the US equal to those in Europe. I do agree that our numbers are not the same. What you might do is look at breeders here in the US and obtain youngbirds off of imports that they have brought to the US. My stock is from Grandchildren of Great imported racers and also Grandchildren off of strong racers in the US. This to me is the only way I can obtain quality birds and not break the bank. I would do much research on pigeonparadise and find exactly what you are looking for. My pedigrees are full of imports and quality birds. The bloodlines are here in the US. Vandenebelle has racers in his arsenal that have identical pedigrees to birds in the US. I have a birds with similar pedigrees to Jos Thones present winners. I have a granddaughter down from four original Janssens. I have a grandson of Engel's Den Dikki. Birds down from Verbart 46, DeKlaks best bird ever. I have birds down from Piet Valk. All I aquired from birds in the US of A. I have Ganus blood, OHF blood, CBS Blood etc. Full brothers and sisters to futurity money winners. 

My point is that you do not have to go to Europe to get quality birds. I would take your $400 that would buy only a medicore import and buy a few good youngbirds kits or pairs off of good sound stock. I founded my loft from 12 birds. I have friends that spend big money on birds. I spend little money on birds off of these birds. The names are still in the pedigrees, but the money is still in my wallet. 

Find a winner. Ask him or her which pair is their best and then buy a pair of youngbirds from them. I think if you do this with say Warren, Capt Chuck, the Beards, Crazy Al, and even me that those dozen birds could allow you to compete with anyone. 

Happy Shopping

Randy


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

There war an article here about a pakistan person importing 20 birds from pakistan. HE spent about USD 7000 for them asper the article


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

roxtar said:


> Say hypothetically that my wonderful wife were to allow me to spend a little money on a bird or pair of birds ($150-$400 range I guess) as a birthday gift..... How much of a pain is it to get birds shipped into the U.S. from Europe? Is there any sort of customs issues that should be anticipated or issues with the condition of the birds upon arrival? I really need to stay off of pigeonparadise, or I'm gonna be broke


The money your wife might allow you to "Invest" would cover the importation expense.........so that alone would eat up your entire birthday gift budget.

For that relatively small amount, you might just be better off visiting a couple of your area's top fanciers, and maybe they will like you and be willing to let a decent pair go for what you are able to pay. Most commercial breeders of any reputation do not really want their names associated with such inexpensive pigeons. A good fancier who is a real sportsman in your area, may take you under his wing, and share with you some older breeders or some leftovers from his YB team, which *may *give you better odds then trying to shop with most pigeon sellers with $150-$400.

I don't know or remember what your current breeding stock situation is, but you might consider focusing your dollars on a single cock bird and pair him to your two best hens. Or form a sort of partnership with another club member who may lend/exchange you a better hen then you currently own, to breed to your new purchase. I worked a few such deals out myself, with local guys who in turn are working it off with loft cleaning duties and the like. In the one situation, the gentlemen made a very large "Investment" into a single cock bird, but he broke the bank in the process while at PIPA....and needed a worthy hen. 

It will take some thinking on your part, and a willingness to think outside the box. Good Luck.


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

This might not be related to pigeons but let me tell you story about winners in Sri Lanka.

I am also active in showing dogs. It takes a minimum of 3 years to make a dog champion because we have 2 to 3 shows a year in Sri Lanka. Most dogs do not become champions because they get too old but we do have some wonderful dogs from abroad who have won. If I was in India or Europe or USA i could make a very good dog a champion in a month (4 shows maximum).

What I am trying to say is that there are so many races in europe that lots of birds have titles.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

warriec said:


> This might not be related to pigeons but let me tell you story about winners in Sri Lanka.
> 
> I am also active in showing dogs. It takes a minimum of 3 years to make a dog champion because we have 2 to 3 shows a year in Sri Lanka. Most dogs do not become champions because they get too old but we do have some wonderful dogs from abroad who have won. If I was in India or Europe or USA i could make a very good dog a champion in a month (4 shows maximum).
> 
> What I am trying to say is that there are so many races in europe that lots of birds have titles.


Warriec,

This is very true. In the US in 2007, I suspect however, that there are many fanciers who were unable to even make it to the races in the first place due to heavey losses. Then when the races began, there are a good number of "No Reports". So it would seem, that in the USA, even getting the bird into the clock, has been for many, a challenge, let alone winning the Diploma or winning the race.

For this reason, many fanciers seek out the offspring of pigeons which may have won the title. In my humble opinion, if we are talking about a single race, the better bird just might be the one which shows up week after week, race after race, but just never made it to "Star" status....which in some cases, has been by mere minutes or even seconds. In my Combine there is a three bird clocking limit, so if four or five birds show up "On the Drop" the 4th or 5th place bird was really equal to the bird which just happened to register in the clock 1st.....but the bird get's no recognition at all !  The owner may know after two or three times, that this is really the better consistant bird, but the sales demand may just be for that bird which just happened to clock once in the season.

The reallity is that bird which in theory could have been the forth bird home or clocked, week after week after week...just may be the real champion but may bring a mere pittance on the auction block, but the bird which just happened to have the right wind and clocked 1st in a single race, *if the right *race, will bring the big bucks....so go figure......


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> there are many fanciers who were unable to even make it to the races in the first place due to heavey losses.


That's the boat I'm trying to get out of next year doggonit...... 

I'm starting to think that I should perhaps just experiment with what I've got in my stock loft by switching up my pairings and perhaps taking the one cock that's actually got a good racing record (that I know of) and pairing him with a couple different hens.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Roxstar
What club or combine do you fly with? Why I am asking is that, I like Warren, like to test my birds out with clubs and combines accross the country. I do not have the reputation as does Warren, but feel that my birds are of high quality. I do not have a club to fly with, but fly about 40 birds in futurities and with clubs in the area. The fliers fly my birds for me, yb and old birds. This way I can test the bids and the fliers can get a round or so off of the better fliers. I then either take young birds off of them or the birds back after they have been tested. This is a win win for both of us. The clubs I raced with last year won races with my birds and were eager to fly some more. I have won races with five pair of breeders. I also have 31 ybs that I am testing locally and saving back for stock if their siblings do well. I always have quality birds for sale at the end of the season. 
A wise man told me that his "culls" were better than most peoples birds. I aquired 12 young birds from him after looking at his stock and studying his race record and have raised winners out of 10 of them. My point is that there are people like my mentor, Warren, and myself that can help you get quality birds that can breed you very competitive birds and not break your bank. 
Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Another way to get some great quality birds is through the World of Wings gold breeder program. I have two hens down from a Bob Kenny bloodline from the world of wings. They have both bred me winners. The hen bred 9th place Vegas Crap Shoot. Vern where I aquired the birds has a yb off of her flying very well in the Colorado Gold Rush, DRO 1024. It was first in the 100mile trainning race. My bird that is First right now in the Western States Futurity is her grandson. He has aquired Millinium grandchildren, Ganus birds etc. from the breeding program. 25 bands for $250 and you get a young bird off the breeders. He usually gets a bird a year from them. You also help out the WOW. 
http://www.pigeoncenter.org/

You may also look at Oak Haven Farms. They are selling out.

Lastly You may try and find local or futurities in the are that auction off the winners. Smaller futurities auction off their birds for reasonable prices. You may take your $400 and get some top 10 futurity birds.

Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Randy, here's a link to our race results. Club and Combine. Roxtar flies with us.


http://www.drpclub.homestead.com/DRPRACERESULTS.html

You can see by the results that we've had two VERY bad week ends. Roxtar or myself either one can make heads nor tails of our breeders when we have races like these. No one is going to tell me that only 3 or 4 of the flyers in our combine have "good" birds and the rest of our birds are inferior. I personally would put my birds up against any of the birds in our combine. We've had high losses and _part_ of it is due to birds that just don't have _*"it"*_ ......but most of the losses are due to stupid humans. Period. 
The birds were put up last week in Fog..........how utterly stupid is that???? I'm still mad as hell about it. This week, two out of the 9 clubs in our combine didn't even ship, our club was one of them. How do you put young birds up to fly 300 miles in head winds of 10 to 15 MPH, with 20 MPH gusts??? It's bordering on animal cruelty as far as I'm concerned. No awards or recognition is worth that.
Roxtar has some birds out of my loft as breeders. They are the same birds that I fly/flew last year. 
With what has happened in the first two weeks of flying has absolutely nothing to do with his breeders. 
There's going to be some changes made around here next year or this ol' gal is outta here. 
These people fly young birds like they do old birds. Sure, there's a few that somehow muddle through........there always will be, but when you loose 75% of your birds due to stupidity, it's time to do something different. 
Roxtar just needs to hang in there and race what he's got left when he feels he can and get to next year. He'll see a difference, cause our club is going in a different direction.........if not, I'm going in the direction of "out the door".....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Now, we just got an email that the truck is broke down and the birds are sitting on the side of the road......... 
They'll have a GOOD headwind when they finally get them up, and they WILL go up, you can bet on that.  Or hold them until tomorrow, but I'd also bet there's no food on the trailer for the birds..........


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Sounds like some changes in "style" need to be made. Lovebirds leads the charge!!  
Hope things work out for these young 'uns. I hate reading about all these birds that are lost due to poor human management on race day.


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

*CHRIS PEEMAN passed away*



hillfamilyloft said:


> Another way to get some great quality birds is through the World of Wings gold breeder program. I have two hens down from a Bob Kenny bloodline from the world of wings. They have both bred me winners. The hen bred 9th place Vegas Crap Shoot. Vern where I aquired the birds has a yb off of her flying very well in the Colorado Gold Rush, DRO 1024. It was first in the 100mile trainning race. My bird that is First right now in the Western States Futurity is her grandson. He has aquired Millinium grandchildren, Ganus birds etc. from the breeding program. 25 bands for $250 and you get a young bird off the breeders. He usually gets a bird a year from them. You also help out the WOW.
> http://www.pigeoncenter.org/
> 
> You may also look at Oak Haven Farms. They are selling out.
> ...



nice info here Randy but when i visited OHF web : http://www.oak-haven.com/ i felt so sad about the news.


kalapati


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

kalapati said:


> nice info here Randy but when i visited OHF web : http://www.oak-haven.com/ i felt so sad about the news.
> 
> 
> kalapati


OMG........that's terrible. Wonder was he sick or was this totally unexpected? I knew there were health problems and he was selling out, but he DIED?
That's very sad.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Now, we just got an email that the truck is broke down and the birds are sitting on the side of the road.........
> They'll have a GOOD headwind when they finally get them up, and they WILL go up, you can bet on that.  Or hold them until tomorrow, but I'd also bet there's no food on the trailer for the birds..........


 I hope that they have water GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> OMG........that's terrible. Wonder was he sick or was this totally unexpected? I knew there were health problems and he was selling out, but he DIED?
> That's very sad.


 Renee he had the big C and it was so far along that there was not much that could be done. GEORGE


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

george simon said:


> Renee he had the big C and it was so far along that there was not much that could be done. GEORGE


OH, I didn't know. That's too bad...........


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee and Roxstar

I hope you did not think that I think your bird are inferior. I was just suggesting other ways that roxstar could aquire new blood and try them out. I am a firm believer in testing birds out before you stock them. I have a bird that one races both young and old birds for a friend of mine. He does not stock birds until they have three good seasons. I would love for a club and combine the size of yours to test out my birds. I always have a few extra if you guys want to try a team. 

Too bad the shipper did not hold those birds back. My birds in Colorado where held up this morning over until Sunday. Go figure the shipping truck has food and water for the birds. Releasing in fog is just plain stupid. We are looking at 15 mph head winds Sunday. My birds do well in head winds one winning from 250 two weeks ago in 20mph head wind.

Chris Peeman was a great pigeon guy who was sick with cancer. He will be missed in the sport. He established a good colony of birds. I am proud to say I have OHF in some of my pedigrees.

Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Renee and Roxstar
> 
> *I hope you did not think that I think your bird are inferior*. I was just suggesting other ways that roxstar could aquire new blood and try them out. I am a firm believer in testing birds out before you stock them. I have a bird that one races both young and old birds for a friend of mine. He does not stock birds until they have three good seasons. I would love for a club and combine the size of yours to test out my birds. I always have a few extra if you guys want to try a team.
> 
> ...


Absolutely not,,,,,,,,,not what I thought at all. I was just saying............
Yea, Chris was a good guy. I've got some of his stock in some of my peds too. (I think)......at least I used to. 
AND.........I would love to fly some of your birds. I'm always leary of taking someone else's bird to fly, since what happend about 3 years ago.
I may have told this story before...........we (our club) tried having a little futurity a few years ago. Got a call from a guy in TN. He wanted to enter birds, but didn't want to ship them. My husband and I agreed to meet him half way one Sunday and pick up his birds. He went on and on about these two birds, how much he paid for the parents, how good brothers/sisters had done, etc........trained the birds and finally took them on their first training toss. 1 mile away. We had about 40 yb's. 39 took to the air. One went to a tree. You guessed it, it was HIS bird. Since I was so close to the house, I jumped in the truck, flew home, got my can and went back to see if I could convince the bird to get up and go home. When I got back, the bird was no where to be seen. Never saw it again. Had to call the guy and tell him what happened. He was VERY upset, like I had done something wrong. To make things worse, a couple of weeks later, I went out early one morning and as I walked by the aviary, I see this bird sitting in the corner. As I got closer, I realized the bird was dead. You guessed it again........it was this guy's OTHER bird. So, I had to call him and tell him what happened. He literally let me have it and called me everything in the book. So much for his "expensive" breeders............


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

roxtar said:


> Whoah guys, I was just inquiring about the process.....
> 
> I think that the availability of good birds here in the U.S. has probably eliminated the need to import birds from Europe for the purposes that I'd want them for right now. I don't think that i could ever warrant spending that kind of dough on a bird while just flying with a club/combine and no intention of selling offspring in order to recoup my investent.
> I might think about it one day if I ever get to the point where I'm flying in futurities or one loft races but right now I think it would kind of be trying to run before I can crawl. I am looking to buy a pair of breeders some time before Christmas but importing birds I think would be out of the question save for some very unlikely circumstances.
> ...



Some of my previous posts were written as a general guideline for anyone reading these posts. The reality is, you should be consulting with your mentor about such matters.

The grass may appear greener in some far off pasture, but my money would be on your mentor in terms of treating you right, and providing you with a level of birds which you may not be able to acquire for ten times your stated Birthday budget.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

Renee dont feel bad cuz I bought birds that were supposed to be all that and then some ,I mean I know they were white pigeons but the guy said they did soooo grreat from 100 miles out and more that I wouldnt be dissapointed ..well I was cuz I had 20 when I started training at the end of my street ,it took them 3 days to come back to my loft and I lost 8 in total they were loft flown for 3 months proir too and mind you the end of my street was within site of the loft soooo you really cant believe anything you hear even when they come with a great pedigree,its sad when people are all about the hype   lol I just wanted birds that could find their way home was all lol


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

It is a shame what a few select few do to spoil the trust of all the rest of us. I saw on Pigeonparadise where our friends the M.... Breeding station is claiming to have won big with some birds they aquired at the Pipa auction. Guys like these ruin it for the honest ones. 
Renee, before I would ever send you birds, I would have you talk to those who have flown my birds. I talk a lot of crap in here some times, but I have always learned if I can not back it up, I keep my mouth shut. I think we all get a bit carried away from time to time. Thats what makes pigeon flying interesting. I have had a good three year run getting back into pigeon flying. I still have Eight good birds that could win me futurity. I won my fare share of races last year. I had a great mentor that set me up with some stock birds that I could never afford on the open market. My mentor helped me out greatly and I know how valuable this can be. I have a good man Gary Miller in ABQ flying my birds with other club members, testing them out. This has saved me years in establishing quality stock. 
I think when you are helped you just want to help others. I see what you do for Roxstar and others and know Lovebirds folks are quality people. I have studied your birds on your web page. I have looked at your great lofts. I have also learned from you. 

thank you

Randy Hill


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Thank you Randy. I surely wasn't saying YOU would do what this guy did. I was just telling a story. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way.  
We'll have to talk about next year. This past year was the first time that I didn't bring in any new young birds. I raised and am flying my own birds only. We didn't go to any auctions or join any of the local band races. It's fun flying other peoples birds. Last year I only bought two young birds at a local auction. One was purchased on pedigree only and I knew the man who raised it. The other was purchased because it was white.  (I do that almost every year.......buy a bird cause it's pretty......LOL). Both of those birds are on my OB race team still. Both won us money in the auction race in YB's last year, (330 miles) and I've got one baby off of each of them that is doing good in YB's........if you can call anything in the past two races, GOOD..........


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

hillfamilyloft said:


> ....I talk a lot of crap in here some times,.... I can not back it up....I think we all get a bit carried away from time to time..... Randy Hill



Randy !!  

Please tell me this not true !!!! 










(Above quotes may be out of context)


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