# Anxiety, Lethargy or Nothing at all?



## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

I brought home one 4 week old white homing pigeon as a pet. Excluding all other details for the moment...

Q: Why does it fall asleep when I look at it? 

50% of the time I look at it, it's eyes close and falls asleep. It does not seem to matter the lighting or where the bird is in the room. It will also sometimes peck the ground once, open its mouth once, and then preen.

My sparrow did the exact same thing - and he was mega-hyper but this pigeon is the most chilled out being in existence, yet both close their eyes and nod off when I look at it for more than a few seconds. 

My sparrow and this pigeon both will also preen when I look at it and prepare for flight. So... Is it trying to run or falling asleep? On my end I am wearing the same clothes, acting the same way... Weird. 

Pigeon is healthy, alert, beautiful, clean, preens, eats (very little) but it does eat. It does not drink and I am not sure it even knows how... So we have to work on that. I imagine the stress of being pulled from a coop, a 2 hour car ride, and a new home are going to give pigeon some stress problems and limit its appetite. I'll keep an eye on that.

My only guess? I leave two computers on since this is my music studio and both exude white noise that is very alluring. Couple that with the fact I have 3 walls almost covered in sound-deadening foam and the overall noise in the room can get down to 27 decibels when cars are not going by. That's unbelievably quiet (but true). So, the white noise is magnified.

If my only guess is wrong, then what is wrong with this bird? 

Image 1: pigeon (unnamed) in car before we secured it and left. 

Image 2: after I looked at it for about 30 seconds


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Without knowing any other symptoms, I would guess...(since it is a young bird )

It could be stress or adjusting to a new home, or just not feeling well.

Is the bird eating well?... as some birds at 4 weeks of age are not fully weaned, and not eating enough can cause them to be lethargic and/or sick.

Youngsters of this age barely have enough good gut bacteria and it easily depleted upon stress-and then the bad bacteria can take over. I have received a few youngsters myself that needed to be weaned and I gave them some good yogurt (plain, organic, 0% fat).

Also, keep the bird away from artificial air conditioning and out of drafts of air. Daily sunshine and fresh outdoor and another pigeon will do it good.

The proof is in the poop... how much is the bird pooping and what does it look like? *


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Thank you for the response. Pigeon was pooping prodigiously on day 1 at home but they have decreased in size, frequency and now are appearing a slight tinge of green. 

Since it isn't eating or drinking I imagine that would be the case.

Today I scattered some seed on the ground and it hopped down and pecked, eating only a few grains.

The larger seed the guy provided is way too big and pigeon beaks it then drops it. All of it. Only the smaller cracked corn and wild bird seed can it eat. 

It avoids almost everything else including little bits of lettuce. 

It has been whimpering a little.

When I bought pigeon it's crop was full of seed. The only explanation I can think of is that somehow the guy forced the seed into the pigeon and based on how he interacted with his pigeons (one time even kind of "chopping" at one that was hiding. Like fold your hand into a karate chop but hit the bird on the side with the tips of fingers...)

He has been raising these birds his whole life but I assume he was "rough" with them. Not abusive they seemed healthy and happy. But... Rough. 

Pigeon is sweet and extremely docile. Will climb on my arm if I urge it too. I have not touched it yet.

It does not drink even with water next to it.

Not sure where to go next.

Hand-raising a nestling sparrow was infinitely easier than this. It was time-consuming and laborious but I do better with things I understand. 

Creating a bond with pigeon while its hungry should be easy, but it shies away when I have food in my hand. When my hand is empty it does not shy away as much. 

It's as if pigeon is afraid of the seed and if it was forced on the bird I am not surprised. 

Any suggestions? I want to go to the store to buy some pellets or something but he doesn't like anything. 



USA


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Actually the poop is a little more yellow than green - it all says dehydration to me. It was slippery on day 1 and normal but now is drier.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Also I may get the sibling pigeon but I bought this bird to create a bond with me... It's not a rescue. 

Sibling was frantic and crazy when I went there. I do not want that bird in my house... Not yet. Not unless all options are off the table and I am not even sure I can afford it - not with the $ I am spending on pigeon 1.

So, I believe the following are true 
- owner was a little rough with pigeons in the loft
- pigeon needs time to adjust at home
- pigeon doesn't know how to drink or eat yet or not well... At 3-4 weeks I'm not surprised.
- can't grab pigeon or force anything on him or I will never get his trust. 
- seems dehydrated 
- limited funds


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He is young and scared. I agree with what Skyking has said. 
He is probably not fully weaned, and his parents were probably still feeding him some. This is very stressful for a young bird. Taken away from parents and a familiar environment, and then caged alone. Alone isn't even natural for a pigeon. Try to put yourself in his place. How would it feel? If he doesn't eat enough, he will get weak and get sick. He must drink, especially if he is eating seed at all. Take his beak gently and lower it into a dish of water, but not over the nostrils. You will need to do this several times daily until he learns to drink. It doesn't take long for a bird to dehydrate. Being lethargic and falling asleep can be signs of dehydration. Also do as Sky has suggested and put some yogurt in his beak, near the front and let him swallow it. This will help to give him good gut bacteria which he needs. 
The pigeon mix he has given you isn't really too big for him, but some youngsters do start with the small seeds first, although I had one to went right for the large peas right away. I couldn't believe it. He still prefers large seeds. He will get used to all different sizes. If he still isn't eating or drinking enough, you may have to hand feed frozen peas which have been defrosted and warmed under warm running water. They would also get moisture into him Here is how you would do that.

If you need to feed peas to a pigeon, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. This gives you more control. Reach from behind his head with one hand and grasp his beak on either side. Now use your free hand to open the beak, and put a pea in, then push it to the back of his throat and over his tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. Then do another. It gets easier with practice, and the bird also gets more used to it, and won't fight as much. If you can't handle the bird, then use the sleeve cut off a t-shirt, slip it over his head and onto his body, with his head sticking out. This will stop him from being able to fight you so much. Just don't make it tight around his crop area. It helps if you have him facing your right side if you are right handed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NorthShore said:


> Also I may get the sibling pigeon but I bought this bird to create a bond with me... It's not a rescue.
> 
> Sibling was frantic and crazy when I went there. I do not want that bird in my house... Not yet. Not unless all options are off the table and I am not even sure I can afford it - not with the $ I am spending on pigeon 1.
> 
> ...


Dehydration will kill him. Starving isn't helpful either. You may very well have to pick him up and make him eat the peas. No choice. I have rescues, and although you would think that this would get in the way of his learning to trust you, it won't. He won't like it at first, but will eventually get used to it. Besides, it won't take long before he is eating on his own.
You also mentioned his droppings looking yellow? That can be a sign of canker, which would be normal for a young pigeon in this situation. When pigeons get stressed or sick, they can often come down with canker. If that be the case, then they must be treated. Can you post a picture of his droppings?


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Thank you guys. 

I will try to help pigeon eat but I have so far been standoffish, since if I ruin this birds trust it will ruin our bond. 

However I will try my best. I tend to move slower than a turtle.

As far as caged... Pigeon is free to roam my room he has no cage. Also I've been with him 16 hours a day, letting him be at night, but slept in the same room as him on first night. 

He is neither caged nor alone. However I may invest in a cage for him in the future. I'm not there yet I want to work with pigeon first.


Here is a video of pigeon trying to eat. I experiments with 3 foods - large seed, broken seeds and a paste I made for my baby sparrow which did well, like a baby bird starter. 

https://youtu.be/DkB6XRnlhe0

I've been stand off ish but maybe my reluctance is hurting the situation?


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

No pictures of poop yet but I will send one once I get it. I've cleaned up everything already... So will take a little while


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You are going to have to hand feed. I wouldn't be feeding seed unless the bird is drinking. They will just pack in her crop and you will have more problems. The peas contain some moisture so can help.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

I tried the pea method and with soft corn, but he would rather not swallow the food. I managed to get him to eat one piece of corn but now he just whimpers when I get near him.

I would say that ruined our trust but I don't think we had any to start with..

So it failed and I was as gentle as I could be considering I had to force this birds mouth open with one hand while it desperately noodled around. 

I'm willing to put in as much time as possible but if this bird starts to hate me because of this then it will be going back to the loft where it can be with other birds and feed. 

What else can be done in this impossible situation


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Unfortunately, you are going to have to force feed him until he learns to eat. Here is a link: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/peasandcorn.htm This is the least stressful method and will hydrate him at the same time.

Those poops are definitely not good.

Also, leave a small spill proof bowl of small pigeon seed mix with him 24/7 so he can practice. You definitely need to get his good gut bacteria in balance, yogurt or probiotics. He will weaken much quicker then an adult bird, if not fed, because he still has such a fragile amount of good gut flora/bacteria.*


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Here he is finally drinking and despite his experience just now with me... He won't leave my side. He's now sitting next to me as if I'm the greatest thing in the world...

Pigeons seem to work differently than other birds I've worked with. I never assumed I had to dunk the birds beak in water to show it how to drink?

It was thirsty, not hungry. And it hates peas... It was the smell or the texture or I don't know but when I put peas near it, it whimpers and runs. 

Just peas.

Ok no peas. 

Here he is on my lap drinking...

https://youtu.be/fjFtewygwng


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

I'm going to the store to pick up some probiotic yogurt.

Any recommendations before I leave? I'll assume it has to be plain and with no frills Etc


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You really need to hold the water lower for him to drink. Just put it down in front of him. In a loft, you wouldn't have to dunk the birds beak in water, as they learn from watching others. Just if he hadn't yet learned.

He is thirty, and he is hungry. Because he won't eat doesn't mean that he is not. He isn't going to eat the peas, any more than the seed. The idea is to feed them to him. That video Sky posted about giving peas, isn't going to work. (sorry Sky, but I think that bird is on drugs or something.) Very few pigeons will sit there like that and take the pea. You need to reread my instructions on getting them into him. He doesn't even know they are food, so isn't going to pick them up either. You need to put them in his mouth and push them to the back of the throat. He will learn. But putting something new down in front of him isn't going to work.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

I will also pick up some lettuce which has water maybe I can tear it to little bits 

Are any of these things dangerous?
- banana 
- bell pepper
- raspberries 

I will hand feed this little guy until he can eat on his own... As you said the process should get easier? I'll assume so.

When I do finally get him eating on his own I have plenty of pigeon seed mix that the owner used and maybe I can pick up some rock grit as well as calcium grit - but I did add bird vitamins to the water, 2 drops, it gave it a yellow tinge to the water. Until I get him outside and in the sun.

If it turns out that whimpering is not solved by this new food then I'll report back and see if a vet can look at him.

Until then, I'll feed him 3x a day until he is ready to fully wean.

Thank you for all your help. I wouldn't have been able to do this with the internet searches


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

As promised here is a picture of the latest poop.

I tried again with banana, probiotic yogurt, bluberries

Again, opposite of that video. It is -IMPOSSIBLE- to get anything in this birds throat without breaking its neck.

This bird does not want to eat period.

I would try again later... A third time might be too much right now.

So... Not back to square 1 but still unclear what's going on. 

All I can do is try again and see if it eats first, then move to the force method and not sure what else


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's actually very easy to get the peas in. Just takes practice. Did you read the way to do it? Not hard if you hold him on your lap and against your body. That gives you control. Then open the beak.

It is pretty clear what is going on. He's not quite weaned, he's scared, and therefore not eating. But still need to get food into him whether he is in agreement or not.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> It's actually very easy to get the peas in. Just takes practice. Did you read the way to do it? Not hard if you hold him on your lap and against your body. That gives you control. Then open the beak.


I did everything verbatim. I had perfect control. 
Still can't get the food in, and bird will not swallow. 

May take more practice despite following instructions to a T perfectly.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Gently open beak, put pea on tongue, and allow bird to close beak and swallow, and repeat, repeat, etc. The peas should be frozen kind, that have been thawed, warmed and drained.*


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*You can hand feed the pigeon seed if he won't take the peas. Just make sure he gets at least a tablespoon per meal. If he is not drinking, you can wet the seed down for 10 minutes with drinking water and feed it that way, I have even used a baby spoon. DO not wet more seed then bird can eat, because if it sits longer then an hour it needs to be thrown out as it can cause mold can cause major issues for pigeons.

I have even gone so far as mixing the seed with my organic greek yogurt and fed it that way. A little messy but the results were awesome. *


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Skyeking said:


> *Gently open beak, put pea on tongue, and allow bird to close beak and swallow, and repeat, repeat, etc. The peas should be frozen kind, that have been thawed, warmed and drained.*


I appreciate the feedback. In an ideal situation perhaps that would work, but I tried that a while ago.

This bird does not accept anything in its mouth. No matter how well I open its beak. After struggling continuously (I managed to mash all that up In a syringe) I was able to force feed the bird some of it.

There is no "put a pea on the tongue"

It's try to open beak of bird that is viciously thrashing it's neck despite being held close to my body. It's try to gently push a pea into the birds mouth when it is pushing it back out or whipping it's beak to get it out.

I don't know what birds you guys are working with but I've never heard of a bird just sitting there accepting food. But I have little experience.

I'm using enough force to complete the job but not hurt the bird. Any more and the bird will be injured. That's not acceptable...

So, I did "succeed" but again as I feared, what I expect to be a damage to our potential relationships

So far I'm not feeling very good about my chances with this bird. But it is early still and I'll wait a week before I make any judgement calls.

For now I'm leaving it alone, as I usually do and have done outside of this force feeding, but am sitting near it.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Skyeking said:


> *You can hand feed the pigeon seed if he won't take the peas. Just make sure he gets at least a tablespoon per meal. If he is not drinking, you can wet the seed down for 10 minutes with drinking water and feed it that way, I have even used a baby spoon. DO not wet more seed then bird can eat, because if it sits longer then an hour it needs to be thrown out as it can cause mold can cause major issues for pigeons.
> 
> I have even gone so far as mixing the seed with my organic greek yogurt and fed it that way. A little messy but the results were awesome. *


Good call - about a half hour ago I managed to mash the pea, yogurt and some of the easier smaller seeds into a syringe and put that in the mouth and give it a little at a time. Almost the same as my baby sparrow. 

The bird is very stressed I can tell because it is excessively preening now... And stops when I come in and out, before it did not do that. 

Time will tell...


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

It's been about 20 minutes since the feeding and after some pretty intense preening it has melted back into marshmallow peep mode.

I'm going to guess when it turns into a marshmallow peep that it is somewhat content or sleepy. 

It did do a bit of flapping - or "pretty bad flying" as it is the equivalent of a fledgling now. Partly to avoid my towel and partly just for kicks. 

So that tires it right out. 

Can you confirm that peep mode is a good place to be?

I will try to feed it again in 5 hours. I will offer it food first, then leave some in front of it, but if all that fails and it does the sleepy eye routine again I will try to force feed it


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Confirmed.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NorthShore said:


> I appreciate the feedback. In an ideal situation perhaps that would work, but I tried that a while ago.
> 
> This bird does not accept anything in its mouth. No matter how well I open its beak. After struggling continuously (I managed to mash all that up In a syringe) I was able to force feed the bird some of it.
> 
> ...


Later on, you will entice him with treats. He will learn to love you.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Later on, you will entice him with treats. He will learn to love you.




Thank you very much. He just woke up, shook and whimpered a little... I'm not sure what the wimpering means from a young bird like this except "I'm hungry". The bird seems hungry... So I'll try again.

I just put water in front of it while it was a loaf and it did nothing. I raised the water to his beak and he slurped some... I think pigeon wants 4 star service. Just kidding.

So, I'm going to try and feed him again. Wish me luck... Thank you for the advice one and all.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

When I put food in front of him or on my finger he tries to fly away (as I suspected would happen)

But when I walk away, he's ok sits back down and whimpers.

I don't understand what's happening this is the most frustrating thing I've ever done in my life


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

And now he's pecking around and trying to eat whatever is around him but when I try again he shies away

So... Now whatever progress I made with him has been erased. It's not the food he doesn't like its my hand.

I lay the food down in front of him, he pecks at it and is now reluctantly eating it but stops he doesn't eat much.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help. 

As I'm writing this he's pecking at the food, ignoring it and whimpering. 

How do I search the internet for that?

I've succeeded in making him afraid of my hand... Not sure what else


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Weird 

He is eating now that I have left the room. Did not happen until then. When i came back in, he began pecking again (and whimpering)

Also I know he can't just eat peanuts this was just a test out of desperation. 

But when I put my hand near the dish, look at the fear we've managed to instill in him by force feeding him. 

Also he's whimpering and pecking but he drops almost everything. What on earth does he want.

Edit: Tested again and he stops eating when I'm in the room. Looks like we have some damage to undo? How to approach now? Keep force feeding? Internet searches are useless 

Video: https://youtu.be/xHSviTfudio


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Okay, first you need to understand that they do not like hands. They normally don't. They may like you and still not like your hands. They will fly to your head, your shoulder, beside you at your desk. But when you go to pick them up or bring your hands into it, they run away. Many of us do believe that they don't see there is a connection between you and your hands. You are friend...........................the hands are foe. This will however, get better when he learns to be more comfortable around you.
You need to understand the bird. To him------------------hands are not good. Hands are the things that grab him to put him in a cage or box. Hands are what grab him to band him. Hands are the things that confine him to make him eat. You are good.........hands are bad. They are mostly all that way, unless you had raised him from tiny babyhood, where he learned early on that hands are what provide the food and treats and all. Older birds that have either not been handled before, or maybe handled badly by the keepers, have to relearn all over again that the hands can be trusted. Sometimes we do need to handle them in a way they do not like, maybe to feed as you are, or maybe to medicate, or whatever. But they will learn to like and trust you, and then they get over it quickly. They don't hold a grudge. Seems like they don't even think about it. I have only had one bird that did not get over it, and always hated my hands, and I think me, whenever I would go near her, like to put feed in her nest box, or clean, she would attack and bite me. She was not like that before. She broke a wing and I had to tape it, and retape when she got out of it. And keep her bound like that for a period of time. Had to bring her in and keep her in a cage, away from her mate, who would try to help her to escape the bandages. Anyway, I'm sure it was painful, and she didn't understand why I was doing all that to her. It made me very sad that she hated me later on, but the wing healed, and she did fly again, and was able to join her mate in the nest box, 3rd row up. So it was worth it, as that is what mattered more. But that is the only one who held a grudge in many years of rescuing, and having to feed and medicate and many other things. So just do what you need to do to help the bird, and don't worry about the bird holding a grudge. He won't. 

Your bird is crying because it is hungry. It doesn't want to feed itself. It misses Mom and Dad, and wants to be fed by them. When we hand raise babies, they do the same thing. We are trying to wean them onto seed, and to feed themselves. But they will go hungry and cry to to fed, because they want us (who they see as Momma or Daddy) to feed them. Sometimes, it can take a while and a bit of patience to get them to feed themselves. This poor thing is Missing his parents feeding him, and he is missing that important bond he shared with them, so if you can just remember how difficult all this is on him, it will help you to stay patient, not give up, and to understand him.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Okay, first you need to understand that they do not like hands. They normally don't. They may like you and still not like your hands. They will fly to your head, your shoulder, beside you at your desk. But when you go to pick them up or bring your hands into it, they run away.


Ari: so far my experience with all birds. Ok... I had a suspicion the birds saw the hands different than the head with my sparrow. Like you said they both fly to my head, back, shoulders but get those hands in there and they run. Then I should maybe wear socks or experiment with that until they calm down.




> Many of us do believe that they don't see there is a connection between you and your hands. You are friend...........................the hands are foe. This will however, get better when he learns to be more comfortable around you.
> You need to understand the bird. To him------------------hands are not good. Hands are the things that grab him to put him in a cage or box. Hands are what grab him to band him. Hands are the things that confine him to make him eat. You are good.........hands are bad. They are mostly all that way, unless you had raised him from tiny babyhood, where he learned early on that hands are what provide the food and treats and all.


Ari: that was my original intention but finding a pigeon breeder was hard. He had no pigeons under 3 weeks except hatchlings that we decided was too soon and the ride home might have been too hard. The entire reason I got this pigeon so young was so I could hand feed it and gain it's trust early on so hands would not be a problem. Looks like I failed at the one thing I tried to do. So now it's just going to take weeks and it may never get better. I can't believe 3 to 4 weeks isn't young enough. I suspect the breeder was too rough with these birds. Despite the genetic bias against hands. Too late now just ruminating 



> Older birds that have either not been handled before, or maybe handled badly by the keepers, have to relearn all over again that the hands can be trusted. Sometimes we do need to handle them in a way they do not like, maybe to feed as you are, or maybe to medicate, or whatever. But they will learn to like and trust you, and then they get over it quickly. They don't hold a grudge. Seems like they don't even think about it. I have only had one bird that did not get over it, and always hated my hands, and I think me, whenever I would go near her, like to put feed in her nest box, or clean, she would attack and bite me. She was not like that before. She broke a wing and I had to tape it, and retape when she got out of it. And keep her bound like that for a period of time. Had to bring her in and keep her in a cage, away from her mate, who would try to help her to escape the bandages. Anyway, I'm sure it was painful, and she didn't understand why I was doing all that to her. It made me very sad that she hated me later on, but the wing healed, and she did fly again, and was able to join her mate in the nest box, 3rd row up. So it was worth it, as that is what mattered more. But that is the only one who held a grudge in many years of rescuing, and having to feed and medicate and many other things. So just do what you need to do to help the bird, and don't worry about the bird holding a grudge. He won't.
> 
> Your bird is crying because it is hungry. It doesn't want to feed itself. It misses Mom and Dad, and wants to be fed by them. When we hand raise babies, they do the same thing. We are trying to wean them onto seed, and to feed themselves. But they will go hungry and cry to to fed, because they want us (who they see as Momma or Daddy) to feed them. Sometimes, it can take a while and a bit of patience to get them to feed themselves. This poor thing is Missing his parents feeding him, and he is missing that important bond he shared with them, so if you can just remember how difficult all this is on him, it will help you to stay patient, not give up, and to understand him.


I went from bird to bird so I've been doing this for weeks... I didn't take a break in between. The sparrow was a rescue that was released. Anyway, I feel for the pigeon and I feel bad force feeding it... But don't mind doing it if that's what he needs. Unlike the sparrow, who was a nestling and the schedule was simple as was the diet. It was about sticking to a schedule. With pigeon, it's all unknown. I have the food I think I need now, and think 3x a day is ok. But I don't know when the weaning process is over Etc... My sparrow weaned almost instantly. He was pecking at food after 14 days. He was a wild bird and the differences are night and day. Why was a wild bird so much easier than a pigeon? I see people hand feeding pigeons they don't even know but i can't get my hands within 5 inches of one that I own... So weird. 

Anyway, your help is immeasurable but the frustration is building. These moments are so critical for our relationship later that every second passes must be done right or it will be a little harder later. After a time, days will go by without incident but these first few days here are so critical. 

I've scraped the Internet down to a raw nub and the only good data about pigeons is on this forum. There is one other more about racing pigeons but I prefer this one

So - I'll syringe feed him again tonight... I hope he realizes what is happening and struggles a little less. Maybe we can bond over this. I spend time calming him down and stroking his feathers when I force feed him. It works sometimes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you don't want to force him, then give it another day or so. As long as he is eating some, if you can mix some seed in with some chopped unsalted peanuts, which you said he likes, and hold it in your hand near him until he gets used to you being so near. If hungry enough, he may eventually eat from your hand. It will take time, but even with other birds like parakeets. You spend time near the cage, put your hand on the cage then in the cage and talk softly to him. Eventually you try the seed in your hand. He will get used to your hands being there. If he is eating some,he may be okay without the forcing him. Just make note of how much he is eating. You may have to feed the peas again if he isn't taking in enough food. Drinking is very important, and he does know how to do that, so that's good. Remember, he is wondering why his parents aren't appearing in front of him and feeding him. It has got to be so scary and confusing for him. He has been kidnapped away from all that he knows.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> If you don't want to force him, then give it another day or so. As long as he is eating some, if you can mix some seed in with some chopped unsalted peanuts, which you said he likes, and hold it in your hand near him until he gets used to you being so near. If hungry enough, he may eventually eat from your hand. It will take time, but even with other birds like parakeets. You spend time near the cage, put your hand on the cage then in the cage and talk softly to him. Eventually you try the seed in your hand. He will get used to your hands being there. If he is eating some,he may be okay without the forcing him. Just make note of how much he is eating. You may have to feed the peas again if he isn't taking in enough food. Drinking is very important, and he does know how to do that, so that's good. Remember, he is wondering why his parents aren't appearing in front of him and feeding him. It has got to be so scary and confusing for him. He has been kidnapped away from all that he knows.


That is one way of putting it yes. He was essentially taken away from his home. Weird how pets work... 

I wanted to give him a Mirror or perhaps play pigeons cooing, but I'm not sure if he would appreciate that since it wouldn't be his parents (or hers whatever it is).

I want it to feel calm and serene. Anyway...

I syringe fed him again, it went 10% better. twice I was not able to hold him and let him go on his own, gently. The third try he calmed down but his beak is so small I can barely get anything in, his head is like a noodle I don't know what I'm doing wrong. In all that fuss I got half a syringe of yumminess in... And he tasted it, seems to enjoy it and end sipped some water. Good bird! And then I released the towel and allowed him to go on his own. It took a few seconds but yes he flew out. 

(Tomorrow is another day. I'm curious if we have to start this all over again) 

Ultimately he landed back on what I'm calling his favorite perch. He feels comfortable there and has been there all day. So I pushed it more against the wall so his back was not exposed. 

Finally the tray has what was inside the syringe and he pecked at it again, seemed to eat a little and then turned into a marshmallow. For now I am letting it be. 

5 mins ago: (almost no whimpering) https://youtu.be/7ycaDKA_q9g


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> If you don't want to force him, then give it another day or so. As long as he is eating some, if you can mix some seed in with some chopped unsalted peanuts, which you said he likes, and hold it in your hand near him until he gets used to you being so near. If hungry enough, he may eventually eat from your hand. It will take time, but even with other birds like parakeets. You spend time near the cage, put your hand on the cage then in the cage and talk softly to him. Eventually you try the seed in your hand. He will get used to your hands being there. If he is eating some,he may be okay without the forcing him. Just make note of how much he is eating. You may have to feed the peas again if he isn't taking in enough food. Drinking is very important, and he does know how to do that, so that's good. Remember, he is wondering why his parents aren't appearing in front of him and feeding him. It has got to be so scary and confusing for him. He has been kidnapped away from all that he knows.


One more thing. I have not named him yet... But you've been so helpful I thought maybe you'd like to name him. Or her... Unclear what sex it is. 

It was bought on July 4 Independence Day so there may be a name there. Also it looks like a marshmallow peep.

I've held off on naming it until a name speaks to me. So far none has.

By all means, feel free to name it. I'm fairly open about names, you never know.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Will definitely try to think of some names, but I'm fairly sure that when you aren't even trying, one will just pop into your head that suits him. Make it a name that is not gender specific, so it can go either way. That way you won't have to change it later, or end up with a female named George, or a male named daisy. I hate that. Makes no sense at all. Easier to change the name if need be. 

That's funny about the marshmallow peeps. I absolutely love those! I love the pic you posted of the peeps. You could always call him/her Peep. LOL.
I know something will come to you when you get to know him better.

A large make up mirror would actually be okay. They usually like that. Some will sit next to it. When a little bit older, that is often a way to find out the gender, and it usually works. A male will often either attack the bird in the mirror, or bow and dance to show off. A female will usually ignore it, or just sit contentedly next to it.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Will definitely try to think of some names, but I'm fairly sure that when you aren't even trying, one will just pop into your head that suits him. Make it a name that is not gender specific, so it can go either way. That way you won't have to change it later, or end up with a female named George, or a male named daisy. I hate that. Makes no sense at all. Easier to change the name if need be.
> 
> That's funny about the marshmallow peeps. I absolutely love those! I love the pic you posted of the peeps. You could always call him/her Peep. LOL.
> I know something will come to you when you get to know him better.
> ...


Pigeons exciting reaction... Fall asleep. It's been in this position for about 10 minutes straight. I think maybe it's still to afraid of everything. Either that or someone slipped some Xanax in the birds feed. This is the floofiest pile of goo I've ever owned. I get excited when it moves an inch. Very typical I think of certain birds unlike chicken chicks which never stop moving ever. 

Anyhow here she is sleepy-eyed again which is what prompted this post. It's almost "bedtime" which is about 10pm (est) so this feels more natural. 

I'll try again when pigeon is a little older. I get a feeling it's a female but I have nothing to base it on just a hunch. 

A side note. About an hour ago I got pigeon to get up on my arm and it sat there as I walked around. I put it on the ground and it flew back to its perch. The method I used to get pigeon on my arm is to put one arm around pigeon about 6 inches away. Then the other straight out in front, then slowly make my arms meet like a pair of scissors. When there is almost no room left, pigeon steps up onto my arm without complaint. Pigeon cannot see my hands too well since they are out of its vision. I think this will work if I need to move pigeon but I don't yet. 

Amazing... It's ok with forearm! As you said.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Very cute, but if not kept in a cage when you are not around, not good. They get used to it, and if permitted to have the whole area, they start to think of it as their territory. It sometimes does create problems. It's good to have a cage to return to at the end of the day. Then that becomes their territory.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Very cute, but if not kept in a cage when you are not around, not good. They get used to it, and if permitted to have the whole area, they start to think of it as their territory. It sometimes does create problems. It's good to have a cage to return to at the end of the day. Then that becomes their territory.


Yes I kind of botched the timing on that by running out of money and getting the bird before the cage. It's a long story. Anyway I have my eyes on this cage which will need some shelves installed. It's the only way to get a cage with the dimensions i need with what I can afford. I just needed a few days to get the money. 

https://www.chewy.com/midwest-icrat...st&utm_term=&gclid=CKe4kdjp4M0CFQJZhgodQuoHYQ

Oh I sure hope that puppy is included. ;|

Hey you know I am also in Massachusetts. I live in Woburn... Where are you?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The longer he is out of cage, the more he will not like being put in a cage. The shelves are easy to make. I use these cages all the time. You don't want the wire shelves. A solid board works great and is easy to fix. Much more comfortable for him too.
I had wondered if you lived near Boston, what with North Shore and all. I'm in Blackstone, near the Woonsocket line. We were in Woburn a few years back. There was a restaurant there we loved. Had a great breakfast. It was downtown somewhere. I actually grew up in Newton.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> The longer he is out of cage, the more he will not like being put in a cage. The shelves are easy to make. I use these cages all the time. You don't want the wire shelves. A solid board works great and is easy to fix. Much more comfortable for him too.
> I had wondered if you lived near Boston, what with North Shore and all. I'm in Blackstone, near the Woonsocket line. We were in Woburn a few years back. There was a restaurant there we loved. Had a great breakfast. It was downtown somewhere. I actually grew up in Newton.


I'm hoping at most a few more days wont be too much. I may put the cage where pigeon is now and give it the blanket it should be ok with that. Either way it will have to wait at most 3 more days. Hopefully that's not too long but this won't be weeks or anything.

It's a small world... Yeah I grew up in Framingham and had a friend in Bellingham I would visit all the time. I know the area a bit. World is getting smaller as I type

Also I was born in Newton. My family lived there until about 1980 or so when we moved to Framingham. I can't remember the street name... Walnut street I think


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> The longer he is out of cage, the more he will not like being put in a cage. The shelves are easy to make. I use these cages all the time. You don't want the wire shelves. A solid board works great and is easy to fix. Much more comfortable for him too.
> I had wondered if you lived near Boston, what with North Shore and all. I'm in Blackstone, near the Woonsocket line. We were in Woburn a few years back. There was a restaurant there we loved. Had a great breakfast. It was downtown somewhere. I actually grew up in Newton.



It was 1377 Walnut St in Newton.

Quick question does it look like pigeon is actually eating? It moves so fast I can't tell. https://youtu.be/n0faKyfRUII

Anyway it's been pecking for 15 minutes now so it's hungry and willing to keep trying but it doesn't like anything I give it. This morning I fed it half a syringe it was very sweet and docile. It griped but not as much. As you predicted.

It is whimpering still probably for the reasons you cited but what I can't figure out is how this bird is getting any nutrition from how little it pecks. My instinct is to let it try but if it whimpers I will syringe feed it again.

Looks to me like progress! 

It has learned a new skill: it has begun to peck down into the dish to crack items with its beak like a woodpecker... Looks like a smart bird using its beak as a tool. I am impressed. 

(Its feet are in the dish now).. Ok so maybe a few more days and when we get settled with the cage and feeding schedule I think I will be able to use peanut pieces as a treat and we can get the ball rolling. Right now it's eating the cracked pieces from a wild bird seed mix but the larger seeds will be eatable I expect in a few weeks. Or whenever it can eat them.

20 minutes now... Good bird!


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## Marina B (May 5, 2011)

Had a look at your video twice, and none of the seeds were swallowed. The bird picks them up, but just drops them again. Seems like he does not like the feel of the seeds in the mouth.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Definitely not weaned.*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sometimes after they get used to being fed peas, and realize that they are food, they learn faster to pick them up, then they do with seed. Probably because they are soft and squishy and easy to pick up. Until he is good at eating on his own, you will have to feed him. Try leaving some of the defrosted peas with him and see what he does.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Walnut Street ! Did you go to Newton North? I did, when it was 3 old buildings and underground tunnels. Now it's the most expensive school in the country. Too much!


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Walnut Street ! Did you go to Newton North? I did, when it was 3 old buildings and underground tunnels. Now it's the most expensive school in the country. Too much!


I was in Framingham by then but my father was an art teacher at the public school


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Sometimes after they get used to being fed peas, and realize that they are food, they learn faster to pick them up, then they do with seed. Probably because they are soft and squishy and easy to pick up. Until he is good at eating on his own, you will have to feed him. Try leaving some of the defrosted peas with him and see what he does.


No he does nothing 

Today I got huffed at... A warning perhaps. Too young to be so territorial.

I do not believe this is working out and am considering... Alternatives. It's not about my patience, it's this bird. Nobody seems to want to admit that each bird is different and some birds just never lose their fear. I am not ready for that kind of crappy relationship. It's not pigeons I don't like, it's this bird.

Edit: also he shakes now. His fear has evolved into shaking. How am I supposed to console a bird I can't touch. My soft words are meaningless. I don't use any other kind but that's not a solution. 

And I know why it's scared. I get it. All of that has been factored in.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

The breeder said I could bring the bird back tomorrow morning to be with its parents and see if the parents will accept it back and feed it.

It's been 31/2 days (July 4 - July 8 early) and the bird was about 3 weeks... Which means that the odds are not great the parents will accept it, but who knows. 

The bird is still closing its eye a lot but intermittently. I believe it is not getting the nourishment it needs so this is my only avenue.

I told him I don't need the money back. It would be nice but everything I'm doing is for the greater good of this bird. I am obviously too inexperienced to deal with such an impossible bird. 

If the parents don't take it back, then I don't know. I don't have the expedience to navigate this impossible task.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Calm down. You are losing patience. You are right in that they are all different, and some just won't tame up. But that is seldom the case. Honest! Breath deeply and regroup. Sometimes it does take a while. I think you are in too much of a hurry. I know it can be frustrating, but the harder you try, the more frustrating it can be. Don't try so hard. Relax. He will come around. And he probably will start eating on his own soon. I don't think he will let himself starve to death. He knows how to pick up the seed. Hand feeding the defrosted peas is easy with a little practice. Then you start leaving them with him. I am telling you that he will eventually pick them up himself. You haven't given yourself enough time to learn to work well together. Don't take his mood so personally. He will grow to like you if given a chance. Look, if you need someone to rant to, PM me your phone number and I will call you. Sometimes just talking it through helps. You should have been here when I came home with 6 baby rescues for the first time! 2 just a couple of days old, and I had no idea of what to do with baby pigeons. I had to figure it out myself. By the time I found Pigeon Talk, it was a good month later. Boy we had some fun times here for those first few weeks. And you think you've got it bad? Let me call you and we can talk.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Calm down. You are losing patience. You are right in that they are all different, and some just won't tame up. But that is seldom the case. Honest! Breath deeply and regroup. Sometimes it does take a while. I think you are in too much of a hurry. I know it can be frustrating, but the harder you try, the more frustrating it can be. Don't try so hard. Relax. He will come around. And he probably will start eating on his own soon. I don't think he will let himself starve to death. He knows how to pick up the seed. Hand feeding the defrosted peas is easy with a little practice. Then you start leaving them with him. I am telling you that he will eventually pick them up himself. You haven't given yourself enough time to learn to work well together. Don't take his mood so personally. He will grow to like you if given a chance. Look, if you need someone to rant to, PM me your phone number and I will call you. Sometimes just talking it through helps. You should have been here when I came home with 6 baby rescues for the first time! 2 just a couple of days old, and I had no idea of what to do with baby pigeons. I had to figure it out myself. By the time I found Pigeon Talk, it was a good month later. Boy we had some fun times here for those first few weeks. And you think you've got it bad? Let me call you and we can talk.



I appreciate the offer and I may take you up on that... I might be stuck with this bird anyway. 

If the parents don't "accept" the bird then we have a big problem. You would have to be the most convincing human ever to live in order to convince me to spend the next 15 years of my life with a bird I don't like and one that is mortally afraid of me. You should see this thing now... It now runs in mortal peril when I am barely 5 feet away... I'm sorry I did not sign up for this. Maybe I just suck... I don't care. I wanted to invest my time in a bonding experien with a bird I could bond with and care for. This is not that bird.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why are you blaming the bird? Not his fault. You are not being fair to him. He is a 3 week old baby. He doesn't even know people. To him, you are a predator. He knows other birds and his parents. You aren't giving him time, and you aren't giving him a chance. Did you actually think that they come friendly and used to people? Even parakeets are scared to death and run away when you first bring them home. You made it worse by not having a cage ready for him. Then he could not run away so much. He would get used to you. You are not being patient. Building relationships take time.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Why are you blaming the bird? Not his fault. You are not being fair to him. He is a 3 week old baby. He doesn't even know people. To him, you are a predator. He knows other birds and his parents. You aren't giving him time, and you aren't giving him a chance. Did you actually think that they come friendly and used to people? Even parakeets are scared to death and run away when you first bring them home. You made it worse by not having a cage ready for him. Then he could not run away so much. He would get used to you. You are not being patient. Building relationships take time.


I'm not blaming the bird. I'm blaming myself, this is not what I wanted and I went through it anyway and now a bird is caught in the middle. 

I refuse to devote myself to something I did not want. I made a mistake. It happens. Pets get returned. 3 days wont be that damaging. If it is, I'll cross that bridge.

What I believe I want is to rehabilitate animals. But I did not have his epiphany until just now. That is what I want to spend my time doing...

I rehabilitated a sparrow and thought I could somehow connect with another bird outside of the context of me being its rehabilitator. 

I saw the bird owner Hit this bird, rather hard, and stupidly out of pity brought this bird home thinking that wouldn't matter. People should not be selling birds on Craigslist that they have treated poorly. And I should not have been so impulsive to go get this bird.

Not having the sparrow left a void I wanted to fill. I wanted another infant. One to raise from day 1 this time as a pet. 

But I compromised, made a mistake. 3 days later - I have to pay for that mistake for 15 years? Ok. Steep penalty.

I screwed up. Now I have to deal with that fallout - and so does this bird. I feel bad enough now having as you said "kidnapped a baby bird from its parents" - I feel like crap for doing that. I had not seen it that way before and if I can reunite these birds in time we may all get what we want with minimal damage.

This is why I am in a rush.


Edit: unfortunately the bird being back with someone I feel may have been abusive is the lesser of two evils because it reunites with its flock before either of us bond. It is better off there then here even if I am a more compassionate owner. It may not see things as I do and I could always be wrong about the owner but I don't think I am


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I honestly think the bird would be fine if given a chance to know and trust you. Birds always take time to trust a person and then they can be friends. But if you don't really want him as a pet, then returning him is best. I think the parents will still know him. So that may work out.
Rehabilitating animals and birds does take patience, and trying to see things from their point of view. Not expecting them to be what you want them to be like. Especially birds. You except them on their terms. Once you can do that, they come around. Good luck with returning him, I hope it all goes well.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*I do hope it goes well, please do update us.

I remember my first time raising 2 day old babies, I was lucky we had a local bird rehabber who rehabbed pigeons-she helped me a lot, but I am just saying...we all have a first time.

I think the owner/breeder screwed up by not allowing the parents to finish raising and weaning the bird. I think that was probably the biggest mistake/error.*


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree with the others. I think if you give it a little more time you will have a friend for life. Pigeons sometimes huff and act that way at first...all ours have. But all six pigeons, regardless of or wildness, have gotten extremely loving and friendly but each at her own pace. Lucy took the longest...was from a breeder/racer, didn't trust people for five months and now she is totally friendly and loves being picked up and gently petted. She lives with Tracy who is her bonded friend...and she still likes people. A pigeon starting to huff at you is a very good sign...means they are starting to get more comfortable. Both Lucy and Chloe wouldn't eat for days...I had to hand feed Chloe but after four days she finally started eating. So I hope you won't give up and just return the bird. Let those who have offered to talk you through it help. You got the poor thing because the owner was hitting it. Poor bird probably has PTSD. We have an adult cat who was so abused she didn't come out from under the bed for five months...now she sleeps on me and eats out of my hand. Your bird just needs to see that you are different, you will not be abusive like the owner was and he/she will get very friendly. Pigeons have to be wary because they are defenseless prey animals. Best wishes and hope you keep the bird because you are obviously a caring person.


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## NorthShore (Jul 6, 2016)

I was able to bring the bird back to the loft and it brought me great joy to see it find its siblings and parents and it even followed them to the ground to peck and of course toss seeds but it's a start. It immediately stopped squeaking and looked to me to be much happier.

I was right about the things I needed to be right about and wrong about the things it was ok to be wrong about. 

Right
- I don't have what I need to care for this bird properly. I thought I could do it but I can't. I get too attached and too upset when things don't go well. My relationships with animals will be ideal with short term interactions. 
- the bird is better off with its kin even if the parents reject it. Although dad pigeon did come out to survey, and the siblings sat next to pigeon and it went well. 
- buying from pet stores is a mixed bag and I feel I am right about finding a breeder instead of a pet store. The animals are not well-taken care of, not given enough love and attention (stores may vary) and they are bred in mass quantities for profit. The experience with a breeder who loves his animals is infinitely better and the transition was smooth. 

Wrong 
- the bird is not sick. It was desperately sad and anxious however. 
- the breeder was not abusive. We talked for a half hour about what happened and my 3 days with the bird as well as how he takes care of the birds. What I thought I saw may not have been abuse. It may have been him losing his footing (which he did at the time, he slipped) and his attempt to grab the bird from a perch failed and it looked like he hit the bird. I'm not 100% convinced but at the very least I will consider it somewhat rough handling
- I am not someone who does good with pets, emotionally I am too sensitive when it comes to attachment and disappointment. This will be the last time I try to have a pet (unless I am with someone who wants to try).

- 

So, the breeder expects me to return to get this bird and possibly his brother. No, that will not happen. He can keep the money for his trouble. It means nothing to him he has 40 beautiful birds and it fit right back in.

the ultimate outcome of this is that I know I have a lot of love and patience to give these animals, but not the ability to be cool-headed, if it means the animals must be with me permanently, which is why rehabilitating a sparrow was much easier for me than owning a pigeon.

I am very happy that the bird is happy and that's all I wanted. I wanted me to be happy too... But I derive my happiness from the animals happiness. I don't think that is a healthy way to be, because anytime something goes wrong, I get upset, the animal gets upset and we have a vicious circle.

when the bird was released back into his flock, I felt again that seeing him fly away made me happy and Proud. I enjoy rehabilitating and raising animals - so long as there is no long-term commitment. I'm just being honest. Because of how I am wired, what should be a lifetime of happiness with an animal is a lifetime of stress and concern. 

As a result, I am either going to help rehabilitate animals like birds, owls, native or not - or - I am going to donate my time at the shelter in Salem. They need volunteers... Which is of course a commitment. But it's not a long term commitment. 

It will take me some time to settle down and figure out where to sign up.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well it sounds as though you have really thought about it and figured it out pretty well. We are all different, and good at different things, thank God! How boring it would be if we were all alike. It sounds as though you have really searched your feelings and taken a look inside to see what makes you happy, and what you really want. That is what you need to go with. What is good for one, is not so good for another. I will give you credit for your honesty, and for figuring this all out. I will add though, that if you don't give something enough time, then you won't really know how it would have gone. But you know yourself, and if keeping a pet makes you more anxious, and tense, but just helping them to get where they need to be, and sending them on their way to have a happy life, is better for you, then that is what you should be doing. Nothing is right for everyone. Good luck in finding that good fit for you. I think donating your time at the shelter in Salem would be a great idea. I think it would be rewarding for both you and those you helped. Which shelter are you referring to? 
I hope you will come back and let us know what you are doing and how it is going. We would love to hear from you.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Glad to hear things worked out and hope volunteering at the shelter will be rewarding. We go to the local shelter on weekends and take toys and treats to the cats and bunnies and enjoy this. Best wishes!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I think you made a wise decision and there are many other birdies out there to help in a volunteer set up for birdies and they sure do need help..Thanks for you love of animals and wise decision making..


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