# bacterial infection and neck twisting



## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I found a pigeon which has some sort of bacterial infection.
I say this because she is quite thin and because of the smell in the poops.

I have had six cases in the past where the poops smelt exactly like this. In those cases I gave synulox/clavamox and they all survived.

The difference this time is that the pigeon likes to rest against the wall using the neck as prop so the neck twists. Then when she leaves the wall the neck may stay in this position, as if permanently looking to the left.

I have had over 30 PMV patients over the years but I have not seen this type of twisting.

The pigeon does not display the other common signs of PMV such as stargazing, resting head on the floor (with head turned upside down), turning in circles, flying backwards or sideways...


I am giving her synulox (clavamox), have her next to a heat source. I have also given a tablet for canker.

She drinks water but does not eat.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

May be its a variant of PMV, did you have time to run lab tests ?


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## jameswaller (Nov 4, 2008)

*head twisting thing*



pigifan said:


> I found a pigeon which has some sort of bacterial infection.
> I say this because she is quite thin and because of the smell in the poops.
> 
> I have had six cases in the past where the poops smelt exactly like this. In those cases I gave synulox/clavamox and they all survived.
> ...


antibiotic/clavamox,,is a must for this infection,-good job,,ahead of the curve.//my pigeon,walter had this-weird head thing(scared the hell out of me)- and i believe i may have given him-50-to- 100mg daily--about 10-14 day infection,,,what kind of tablet for canker.??-clavamox works on canker too,,donot double dose him,.-cannot find my data-right now-for the actual name of the disease //,anyway,so this is out of memory..sincerely james waller


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi pigifan, I don't know if you know that I changed my user name. 

The smelly pops combined with "different" neck twisting could be salmonellosis (I know that having seen the PMV version you can see the difference but it is very hard to describe! Any chance of a video?). The amoxycillin/clavunate combination can be used, but Baytril is more effective.

Are you still in Greece? Can you get something or can I send you some?

Cynthia


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Thanks everybody for the quick replies.

The medication for canker was spartrix. When I first examoned her I opened the beak and although I didn't see anything wrong there was a bad smell, that's why I gave canker medication. However the smell could be due to starvation. In humans during starvation muscle breaks down and a byproduct of protein (muscle) metabolism are ketones that make breath smell bad.

Now you mentioned it Cynthia I remember reading about salmonelosis and neck twisting. It didn't cross my mind.

I do have Baytril. Do you think I should combine it with Synulox or give it on it's own. It's not a pigeon page but it mentions they two can be given simultaneously here : http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/clavamox_amoxicillinclavulanate.php


Thanks for the offer for Baytril. 
I have plenty as you can buy medicines without vet's/ doctor's prescription here in Greece ( It's illegal but everyone buys medicines this way, the law is never enforced).

I know it's difficult buying Baytril in many countries, so if anyone can't afford the vet's fees and wants Baytril I can send them any quantity they want.

Either liquid (concentration: 5 mg per ml) or 50 mg tablets which you have to cut in smaller pieces as the dose is 5 mg


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pigifan,

You can give them together, my vet often prescribes them this way but only if one alone hasn't been effective. What little research I have done on the internet refers to one being used after the other.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, Baytril preferably or Cipro for Salmonella, and Clavamox will not work on Canker. For Canker, you will need one of the Nitroimidazol family such as Metronidazole, Secnidazole, Ronidazole, etc. If Baytril starts to show some signs of success, I would leave it at that and
add Metronidazole instead as Canker is an opportunistic disease that most pigeons carry in host equilibrium.

If Baytril doesn't seem to be helping w/the bacterial infection, I'd add Synulox and a good systemic antifungal.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Long story short...if smelling 'Keytones' in a non-starving Pigeon, consider to use Medistatin for say 10 days...may have to repeat again if odor returns...so keep an eye on it...can take a few rounds...or, the Bird may be Diabetic or have other Metabolic-Endocrine troubles.


Starving Pigeon, once being nourished appropriately for a few days, if smell persists, see above...


Chlamydia can also occasion varities of Torticolis, as can Salmonella, Canker, and Lord knows what all else as may effect Nerves or cause pressure in or against the Brain, in addition to PPMV/Newcastle.


Starvation and dehydration can cause co-ordination problems, as can the endemic Toxins of Candida or Keytone related issues, but, not 'twisting' or 'Star Gazing' far as I have seen...


Glad to see Clavamox mentiones...ran out and need to get some and had forgotten...


Best wishes!


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The pigeon is becoming more and more paralyzed. She is unable to stand most of the time. The transformation has all happened within a day. When I found her she could fly and looked normal. The only reason I decided to intervene was that she was trying to hide behind a crate and was not following her flockmates.

She is still interested in drinking and her eyes look lively.


Nice to know about Medistatin and ketones. I have Nystatin which I use in sour crop cases and I think the active ingredient in Medistatin is Nystatin.
I won't be using it though as this is a starving pigeon.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pigifan, 



Are you rehydrating them with a tepid solution containing electrolytes?


Intending to tube feed thin nutritious formula in small batches, so as not to overwhelm their system?


Keeping them 'warm'?

Sounds like time may be short...and these best come first, before meds can be metabolized...


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The bird does drink water (containing electrolytes) on her own.

Once a day I give only 10 ml of Kaytee exact solution. I have been told by a vet that when they have a bacterial infection they are likely to throw up which is dangerous as the solution could get to the lungs. That's why I give so little when they are very sick. Once they get better I give more.

Also twice a day I feed 10-15 defrosted peas.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pigifan, 



What do the poops and urates look like? Colors, textures?


That's not much food...

I know what you mean about the throw ups...but...maybe, see about doing the 10 mL every eight hours...long as it passes...long as their Crop passes it, all's well with that then, even if they do throw up a little now and then for now.

Add a few drops of ACV to the 10 mL formula even.


Is their Throat 'clear'? No lesions or placque or inflamitory debris?


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

I will try to give the formula (with a little ACV) every 8 hours.

The throat is clear. I see nothing unusual when I open the beak.

The poops are very watery. Similar to these in the picture 
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-salmonellosis.php 
but with a lot more white.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Kalimera, Pigifan. Ti Kaneis ? Apo pou eisai ?

10cc of formua is not enough to sustain an adult pigeon of 200+ grams. They need about 25-30cc/day.

Also, you are right - it can get tricky giving water to a bird in this condition...chances of aspiration increase.

I have had a patient like you describe.....I started her on antibiotics and she became much WORSE initially...to the point where she would just be still all day with eyes rolled back in her head and neck twisted...then have seizures every few hours and often end up sitting on her head. Miraculously....I just kept feeding and medicating...and it took about 7 days but then she started to improve and act more normal again. By 10 days - she looked and acted like a healthy pigeon again.

I would suggest feeding your pigeon solid, cooked vegetables, cut up small, and use a toothpick to place the piece in the back of the throat (beyond the tongue and wind pipe/trachea opening. here we would use peas and corn....in Ellada....carrots and green beans (fasolakia...nostimo, nostimo!) and gigandes beans cut up small, at room temperature should work. And they have a lot of water in them so this will help with hydration. Begin with 5-7 pieces/feeding....4 times/day. If the pigeon is stressing on this, take it slowly so as not to stress her more. Work up to 15 pcs./feeding...4 times/day. When they feel the food in their throats, they usually automatically swallow it themselves.

Καλή τύχη


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It should be worked up to 45 or 50 pieces twice a day, when the crop empties. Wait til it empties before feeding again.
If you hold the bird on your lap and against your body, then come from behind the head with your left hand (if you are right handed), then open the beak with the thumb and index finger of both hands. Place the soft warm (not hot) vegetable toward the back of the mouth, and push it back. He will probably then swallow it. If you hold him in this way, they don't seem to get so stressed and can't move around a lot.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm thinking...do Baytril along with the Clavamox, if you can...and even Metronidazole as well...( I would, I'd dissolve these in a 10 mL Syring in a little Water and a few drops of ACV, then, adding a little more water or soupy Formula, once all is thoroughly dissolved by shaking, apply the short Catheter section to the Syringe, and, straight into the Crop.)


Tiny bites of Cooked Vegetables as Jay is suggesting, sound good to me. Cooked 'light' is plenty...


You can use tiny bits of raw Apple also, just as Jay describes, putting one tiny bite-sized bit into the Throat so the Pigeon swallows...this also helps the PH...


Birds in this sad of shape often get problems with Candida or Yeats, hence, the ACV is especially good...Nystatin or Medistatin of course, is good too...if not better...watch out for grey or white-ish thin slime on fresh poops, indicating Candida Yeast problems already far along...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hmmm - My avian vet never prescribes Clavamox and Cipro\Baytril simultaneously - it's always one or the other


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> Hmmm - My avian vet never prescribes Clavamox and Cipro\Baytril simultaneously - it's always one or the other


I agree with you.


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## leebingate (Mar 13, 2010)

Feefo said:


> Hi Pigifan,
> 
> You can give them together, my vet often prescribes them this way but only if one alone hasn't been effective. What little research I have done on the internet refers to one being used after the other.
> 
> Cynthia


Yes, Baytril preferably or Cipro for Salmonella, and Clavamox will not work on Canker. For Canker, you will need one of the Nitroimidazol family such as Metronidazole, Secnidazole, Ronidazole, etc. If Baytril starts to show some signs of success, I would leave it at that and
add Metronidazole instead as Canker is an opportunistic disease that most pigeons carry in host equilibrium.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree with this...Cipro/Baytril + Metronidazole or Ronidizole.... work well together....but I have been warned not to do the Cipro + Clavamox combo......

Also...my avian vet just told me a few days ago that Cipro + Metronidizole casts a very wide net which covers _some_ of what Clavamox would cover....


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The pigeon is still paralyzed but the poops are getting more normal looking and not as smelly so the Baytril must be working.

I have increased the tube feedings to twice a day of 15 ml Kaytee. I also hand feed lightly cooked peas and corn.

Γεια σου Jaye. I am from outside Nafplio. I see you live in San Francisco - interesting city.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Pigifan,

I once found a link that suggested that the action of Baytril was enhanced when combined with amoxicillin/clavunate...but I haven't been able to find it although there are other references to Baytril being enhanced by administration with another drug ...however...in my searches I found this thread which sounds very similar to your current case. We don't know what the outcome of that was, so I will ask Janet for an update.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=25471&referrerid=560


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I have just read through this after Cynthia alerted me to the thread.

The update to that pigeon's story is that she made a very good recovery over a period of six weeks plus and in fact is still living with me paired up with another hen and laying eggs on a regular basis. 

She went through a period of being almost paralyzed and having to be hand fed and hydrated for a few weeks. The bout of smelly poops responded to Baytril. She had a 15day course of that and she was also on Synulox. I didn't have a definite diagnosis not having an avian vet to refer her to so can't say for sure what her illness was.
Once she started to improve she regained all of her faculties slowly but surely. She could fly well and for two years has shown no signs of any relapse.
Just lately when about to lay eggs she's been tilting her head just very slightly and stumbling a little but overall she's been living a very healthy life since her recovery.

I hope your pigeon comes through this as well, good luck,

Janet


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> but I have been warned not to do the Cipro + Clavamox combo......
> 
> Also...my avian vet just told me a few days ago that Cipro + Metronidizole casts a very wide net which covers some of what Clavamox would cover....


I agree about the metronidazole but who gave you that other warning ? Because on the Baytril/synulox (clavamox,augmentin,noroclav) combo I haven't found anything to suggest that there is any antagonism and on the advice of two vets at different surgeries I have used that combination effectively for years. 

What I found out is that there is a sygerny between fluoroquinolones (which Baytril is) and beta-lactam penicillins (which the main ingredient of synulox/clavamox/augmentin is). *This means that amoxicillin enhances the effect of Baytril *(but note that it Baytril and cloramphenicol don't mix)

_Synergistic effects have been noted between fluoroquinolones
and beta-lactam penicillins. The effects of penicillins on bacterial cell wall permeability may allow better penetration of fluoroquinolones.
Fluoroquinolones should not be given in conjunction with drugs that inhibit protein or RNA synthesis (e.g., chloramphenicol and rifampin); these agents may diminish the activity of the fluoroquinolone._

http://www.baytril.com/index.php/fuseaction/download/lrn_file/baytril-symposim.pdf

I haven't done much research on the interaction between clavunalate and baytril, but this site says that they can be used together on rats.

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/clavamox_amoxicillinclavulanate.php

One thing I found out, though, is that Baytril shouldn't be used together with NSAIDs (eg meloxicam/metacam, aspirin, ibuprofen) as this could cause an animal to go into shock.

Baytril should also be given 2 hours before or after food.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks for the update Janet (sorry I posted withut checking what had come up as I was composing!). 

The important thing as far as I am concerned is that despite the severity of the symptoms she recovered even though it took time and a lot of supportive care.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

pigifan said:


> The pigeon is still paralyzed but the poops are getting more normal looking and not as smelly so the Baytril must be working.
> 
> I have increased the tube feedings to twice a day of 15 ml Kaytee. I also hand feed lightly cooked peas and corn.
> 
> Γεια σου Jaye. I am from outside Nafplio. I see you live in San Francisco - interesting city.


Napflio !!!! Pelopponisos !!!....einai orea perioxi konda Napflio ! M'aresi afto to poli !

Τι χωριό κοντά Napflio ? 

How is the pigeon doing today ? You said that he/she is 'paralyzed'....? Not completely ? Are the eyes open...does he ever have seizures ?


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

Well the pigeon is doing a lot better today.
She can walk, although because of a stiff neck she walks funny like a duck.
She has been trying to eat seeds but the condition of the neck doesn't help. The poops are relatively normal and no longer smell 
Of course I continue to tube feed. I will carry on with the antibiotics for a total of 14 days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pigifan, 



Glad to hear...


Do your best to ensure she remains very well hydrated...

The stiffness may well be from a Toxemia, effecting muscles ( and comfort )...ACV in Water will aid this, as will keeping fully hydrated.

Often, the afflicted may not drink enough on their own, and, require Mr. Tube to visit for hydration to be optimum.

The meds also require hydration to be good+, and or her Liver would prefer it, also.

Shoot for twice the day's amount of Urates you see now...if she starts pooping Water, then back off a little.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Feefo said:


> One thing I found out, though, is that Baytril shouldn't be used together with NSAIDs (eg meloxicam/metacam, aspirin, ibuprofen) as this could cause an animal to go into shock.


My avian vets (2 different ones) prescribe this combo all the time - medicam\cipro - I have used it on a good 12-plus ferals as well as 6 of my parrots over a 12-year period - and it has never resulted in a problem


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> My avian vets (2 different ones) prescribe this combo all the time - medicam\cipro - I have used it on a good 12-plus ferals as well as 6 of my parrots over a 12-year period - and it has never resulted in a problem


Thank you for posting that!  I was feeling vey guilty for having given Baytril and Metacam concurrently to one of my woodies (no ill effects) but your comment prompted me to do a more in depth search and I found this on the Baytril site:

*Fluoroquinolones may interact with NSAIDs. Is that also valid for Baytril ?*

Convulsions have been reported among several human patients receiving both enoxacin (a quinolone for use in human medicine) and fenbufen (a non-steroidal antiinflammatory drug - NSAID). It could be shown that fluoroquinolones inhibit the binding of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) to its brain receptor (see also question about epilepsy). Fenbufen and its metabolite obviously enhances the effect of fluoroquinolones on inhibiting GABA receptor binding (1).

In toxicology studies on mice Baytril has been given concurrently with different NSAIDs used in veterinary medicine. Although very high doses of enrofloxacin (500 mg/kg b.w.) have been given, an increase of acute toxicity could only be observed with butylscopolamine (Buscopanâ). At therapeutic doses, however, no such side effects have been observed.

*As a result of these studies, restrictions of concurrent use of Baytril and NSAIDs has been withdrawn from the label. *

(1) Nix D in Hooper and Wolfson: Quinolone Antimicrobial Agents, Chapter 11: Drug-drug interactions with fluoroquinolone antimicrobial agents. 245 - 258, 1993. 

http://www.baytril.com/62/FAQs.htm#3


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I'll ask 'em about it next time


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

The pigeon is getting better every day and has started to fly. This is a dramatic change and I wasn't expecting her to improve so quickly.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

That is wonderful news, she certainly sounded in a very bad way! She was very lucky to be spotted so qucickly by one of the few people who could help her.

If there is a bacterial infection and you choose the right antibiotic there should always be a quick improvement. 

Cynthia


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

This is great news and it likely was a bacterial infection which was showing neurological symptoms. If it was PMV she wouldn't be turning around so quickly.

Keep on the antibiotic for a total of 14 days minimum, I'd say.

Is she eating on her own again ? How is her weight ?


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## pigifan (Nov 2, 2005)

She is eating on her own but I still tube feed once a day. She has some trouble picking up seeds properly. It just takes her longer to eat than a normal pigeon.
She is also gaining weight.


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

pigifan said:


> I found a pigeon which has some sort of bacterial infection.
> I say this because she is quite thin and because of the smell in the poops.
> 
> I have had six cases in the past where the poops smelt exactly like this. In those cases I gave synulox/clavamox and they all survived.
> ...


I have one that is in 2 for the same, i fed him by hand this morning, now he has a full crop just cause he got a taste of the good stuff, give him his favorite food, he may not want to move out after this, but it wont matter as long as he gets better, good luck
diseases mutates all the time, and not all birds hae the same symptoms, i believe in clav mox cause is not as destructive as baytril, baytril will kill all bacteria, good and bad, also sick birds wont digest food too well, honey is an excellent source of protein, i am being giving him honey, cause of the high calories, a syringe does wonders to force feed him


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jaye said:


> This is great news and it likely was a bacterial infection which was showing neurological symptoms. If it was PMV she wouldn't be turning around so quickly.
> 
> Keep on the antibiotic for a total of 14 days minimum, I'd say.
> 
> Is she eating on her own again ? How is her weight ?


14 days is excessive, 7 days at the most, if u overmedicatd, next time that bird get sick, it will have an inmune system that will be used to that drug also if u use lests say clavamox, next time people should use something else/

A WARM CAGE, CLAVAMOX EVERY 12 hours, for 5 to 7 days, plenty of water and feed, if he doesnt eat, force feed, and them some good probiotics after that round of meds, i also use a teaspoon of garlic juice per gallon of water, cause garlic is a natural antiobiotic


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## cubanlofts (Sep 3, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Hmmm - My avian vet never prescribes Clavamox and Cipro\Baytril simultaneously - it's always one or the other


amen to that, baytril is more effective but it kills all bacteria good and bad, i like clavamox better


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