# Problem! Paratyphoid/Salmonella + Trichomonas Infections



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Ok..

I've noticed recently that one of my squabs developed some boil with dried pus on its elbows, the 
squab is very active though, no other symptoms except that it eats too much and its eyes looks 
colorless.. i should mention that its brother died after 2 days from hatching.

The parents had Trichomonas (canker) before and i've treated with 'Ronidazole'.. they look ok now
except they dont look lively. Other pigeons are a bit listless, the dropping looks watery and i'm not 
sure of the color but i think its olive-green, and their eggs don't hatch or die after 2 days of hatching.

So i believe my flock is infected with Paratyphoid, i started to give them 'N.C.O.-Mix wsp' its a mix of 
(Neomycin sulphate, Chloramphenicol and Oxytetracycline HCl).. this's the 3rd day with the medicine.

I don't have an access to veterinary. only me, my pigeons and the internet. 

My questions regarding 'Paratyphoid':

[1] after reading too much.. i've learned that i should cull severely affected pigeons! what's the
symptoms of a severely affected pigeon?

[2] what about the rest of the pigeons, i mean the whole flock (about 12 pigeons) can they be 
cured if they have it, what about the parents (say if they a carriers)?​


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Your pigeons can be cured, including the baby. No culling please.
We need a picture of the baby's boil you are talking about.


----------



## psychopomp (May 5, 2008)

paratyphoid can be cured! no culling I hope..would be pointless if all are exposed. !! as your whole flock may be infected you may need to find the right antibiotics.

good luck and keep posting


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Charis.. I don't want to resort to culling unless theres's no hope
(its a painful for the pigeons to live with the disease if it can't be 
cured). or if its a dangerous to the rest of the flock. i will post 
pictures tomorrow as its inapplicable right now.


psychopomp, i hope i don't cull anything (except maybe for the 
paratyphoid).. i don't know if my whole flock are infected or not.. 
as i said no access to veterinary, so i have to take all possibility.. 

Thank you All


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is no need to cull. It is treatable. All your birds need to be treated and you must keep rodents out of your loft.


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

First of all, you are throwing all of that antibiotic at your birds when you have no idea what has infected them, if anything. If you want to do something effective stop with all of the high powered antibiotic and get an analysis of some droppings so you have some idea what it is you are trying to cure. Foys offers a droppings analysis for $25.00, check their web page.

Second, whether you know it or not, combining antibiotics in the hope that somehow you improve their potency is worse than useless. Parathyphoid in particular comes from S. enterica, which has over 1000 strains, or variations. One great problem in treating humans is the fact that it develops resistance quickly and easily when you monkey around with antibiotic mixtures. First you find out what it is that is causing the problem, then select the antibiotic that works best for that particular type of bacteria, if it is bacteria at all. Then give the appropriate dose, a firehose approach will get you nothing.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> First of all, you are throwing all of that antibiotic at your birds when you have no idea what has infected them, if anything. If you want to do something effective stop with all of the high powered antibiotic and get an analysis of some droppings so you have some idea what it is you are trying to cure. Foys offers a droppings analysis for $25.00, check their web page.
> 
> Second, whether you know it or not, combining antibiotics in the hope that somehow you improve their potency is worse than useless. Parathyphoid in particular comes from S. enterica, which has over 1000 strains, or variations. One great problem in treating humans is the fact that it develops resistance quickly and easily when you monkey around with antibiotic mixtures. First you find out what it is that is causing the problem, then select the antibiotic that works best for that particular type of bacteria, if it is bacteria at all. Then give the appropriate dose, a firehose approach will get you nothing.


With all due respect to you Grimaldy...the poster has thrown no antibiotics at these birds yet. I would like it if he didn't just CULL that poor baby.
for no good reason.
We are just in the beginning and trying to figure out what the problem might be. Could be the little one has canker. We are waiting for a picture of the baby.
It would be wonderful if you would help be detective.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... go back and read his post again:



alhowiriny said:


> The parents had Trichomonas (canker) before and i've treated with 'Ronidazole'..
> 
> So i believe my flock is infected with Paratyphoid, i started to give them 'N.C.O.-Mix wsp' its a mix of
> (Neomycin sulphate, Chloramphenicol and Oxytetracycline HCl).. this's the 3rd day with the medicine.


Just out of curiosity, alhowiriny, where basically are you?


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Well... go back and read his post again:
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, alhowiriny, where basically are you?


Thank you Pidgey. I did read it again and I was wrong. He/she is throwing medications at them. 

Grimaldy...my apologizes to you.
Detective work still needed.


----------



## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

We can't have detective work when other considerations are at play. Agree?


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I am going to have to say that I no longer think that all "Paratyphoid Boils" are caused by Salmonellae. Some (boils and other joint swellings) haven't responded appreciably to a fluoroquinolone (like Baytril or Cipro) and have done much better with a Tetracycline or Clindamycin. In the case of the Clindamycin, it might have worked due to the pathogen being an L-form Salmonellae or imbedded in the bone as Osteomyelitis. However, when Doxycyline works, you'd tend to suspect something else. Impossible to say, actually.

Pidgey


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi.. and thank you all for all the infos.. i really appreciate it.

i should've mentioned that my pigeons used to be active and have no 
problems, until i introduced another pigeon that day which 'looked' healthy 
and didn't have any symptoms. after 2 months it died (maybe it had a 
diarrhea but i couldn't tell since the floor is covered with sand).. i've 
disinfected the floor just in case, and after about 3 months my pigeons 
started to slow down. first, they are a bit inactive then reluctance to fly.. 
diarrhoea and 2 of them started to develop swelling near the eye, i've 
searched the net for help most of the symptoms lead to canker, so i've 
checked one of the pigeons (with swelling) and i could see the yellow 
deposits on the throat.. i've assumed its trichomoniasis then gave them 
'Ronidazole' .. one of the pigeons (with swelling) healed completely and 
is very active, the other one (which is the father of the sick baby) didn't 
recover although the swelling did get a bit small than before (i've included
a pic) it started to form Droppings in puddles (i've included a pic) though 
it started to behave a bit active than before.. they laid eggs, one hatched
(with the sick baby) the other egg didn't make it (it looked dark).. actually
all my pigeons' eggs didn't hatch or if hatched will die the second day! 

the baby got weaned a week a go thats when i've noticed the boils.. i got 
worried (cause i remember reading that boils=Paratyphoid).. i've gave it the 
antibiotics Mix, you can read about it by downloading this pdf file :
http://www.kepro.nl/catalogus/pdf-76.html

it was available where i lived.. so i gave them and this's the 4th day.

*---------------------------------------------------------------------*

*Grimaldy*, thank you for your warning & suggestion. i know that mixing 
medicines isn't 'always' better and sometimes they form toxics, i didn't 
mix the antibiotics myself they came already mixed, and i think its about 
the only thing available to me right now. and as i said before there's no 
way to access a vet or send droppings overseas.. if i have/can i wouldn't
be here, so again its only me, the pigeons and the internet. 

*Charis*, I value your concern.. and will see what the next days will bring.

*Pidgey *, i'm in Saudi Arabia.


Today, i've noticed the baby starting to be even more active.. 
i've included a video/photos of it and to its parents and others.
i rencoded/resized the video/photos (if larger needed just ask). 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachments
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Video of the baby (right click and save as):*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0237.wmv

*Photo of the baby (full)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0226_1.jpg

*Photo of the baby's (eye)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0236_1.jpg

*Photos of the baby's (boils)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0234_1.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0233_1.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0235_1.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0232_1.jpg

*Photo of the baby's (dropping)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0240_1.jpg

*Photo of the mother (full)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0224_1.jpg

*Photo of the father (full)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0216_1.jpg

*Photo of the father's (swelling)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0222_1.jpg

*Photo of the father's (dropping)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0221_1.jpg

*Photo of the father + others (full)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0217_1.jpg

*Photo others' (dropping)*
http://sites.google.com/site/alhowiriny101/Home/DSCN0223_1.jpg​


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I had a hunch you might be somewhere other than the US when you mentioned that the drugs had Chloramphenicol in them. Where it works, it's actually a very powerful antibiotic. Since the drug mix that you've got is about the only one that you can get and since your options for veterinary care are very limited, there's not a lot we can do besides follow your updates. Best of luck!

Pidgey


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Good noticing Pidgey, yes .. i've read somewhere that 
Chloramphenicol isn't sold anymore in the US because
of some side effects.

And while its true that a veterinary ain't an option in my
case.. i do have access to medications, but not in this 
week (that's why i said, its the only thing available to me
right now). the pharmacy is far from where i live and i 
can't get to it this week.. that's why my main question in 
my 1st post regarding 'culling' as a preventive measure.. 
but 'maybe' the next week i can go, so if you have any 
alternatives.. i'm all ears!

i've said in my previous post that this's the 4th day.. and 
it was a mistake.. its the 5th, so i'v finished the treatment..

i've noticed one of my pigeons lieing down on its side
wing .. i've read some where that it might be some 
internal sore and the pigeon is trying to relief that pain?
any suggestions?


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for all the photos and the video. Are those "boils" hard and crusty or soft and filled with fluid? They look hard in some of the photos. I'm asking because the paratyphoid boils that I have seen are fluid filled. I really don't know about that growth in the eye area on that one bird. It doesn't look like pox to me, but I'm not sure what it is.

I'm sorry your birds are having all these problems and hope that you/we can come up with some solutions.

Terry


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry for the delay.. but here's the update.

Terry, the boils were soft at first when the pigeon was younger, but it 
became hard and crusty after that, and the bird with the 'swelling' has 
a canker (sinus canker maybe), i used to have another pigeon with the 
same symptoms, what i do in this situation is give it Ronidazole for 5 days 
then the 'swelling' becomes softer and i start to gently squeeze it towards
the tear duct and get the accumulation out like a toothpaste.. i did this 
for like 3-5 days while cleaning the eye of course, the swelling starts to 
reduce then disappears.

And since you mentioned pox i have 5 weeks old squab with pox around 
his eyes/beak/legs and end of wings.. i started to wipe it with a sterilizer 
(Glutaraldehyde), and it showing some progress.

Regarding paratyphoid, after i gave them the anti-mix for 5 days, i gave 
them electrolyte + multivitamins for 2 days then i followed it with another
5 days of the anti-mix.. and here's the outcome:

1- The baby pigeon regained its irises color, now they are more like 
yellow/gold and the boils disappeared completely and its condition in 
general is much better now.

2- Out of 8 eggs, 6 hatched (before it was like 1-2 eggs only).

3- The pigeons became more active and starting to fly more.

4- They gained more body weight.​
But there's one thing i've noticed.. one of the pigeons (i think) became 
sterile, because the eggs were not fertilized. but in general all under 
control for now.. still i went to the pharmacy and bought baytril 10% .. 
i didn't give them any, but just in case i need it. i'm not sure of the dosage
though i believe its 1ml/L ? correction is much appreciated.​


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Baytril dosage:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/he...ratyphoid-29254.html?highlight=baytril+dosage

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=325521&postcount=4


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

Thank you.​


----------

