# What Color? (D)



## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

What color is this pigeon?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Looks like a young brown T-pattern grizzle to me. (Could possibly be dilute instead of brown, the picture is a little dark to be certain)


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I would think dun, eye doesn't look false pearl but could be the pic. The bird is grizzle as mentioned above and certainly looks T pattern.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I would think dun, eye doesn't look false pearl but could be the pic. The bird is grizzle as mentioned above and certainly looks T pattern.


They eye wasn't clear enough to me to be able to tell whether it is pearl or false pearl. I think it might be brown due to the very light flights, much lighter than the darkest parts of the bird (and due other bird in the Op's recent questions also being a brown).

TwinTurbo, if you want to be sure, look at whether this bird's color fades a lot over time. The sun bleaches browns a LOT more than it bleaches dilute blue. Also, brown's tend to have softer feathers than dilute blues, which make them more prone to damage. Just before the moult, none of my browns have flight and tail feathers that are still in pristine quality.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

How can one tell the difference between a false pearl and recessive pearl? I have seen pearl eyes in numerous breeds and they all had different amounts of veins. What difference would it make it was pearl? We have brown pigeons with reccesive pearl eyes.

So how can one tell from looking at the eye alone if it is false pearl or recessive pearl?

FWIW This bird looks to me to be a dilute blue t-pattern het grizzle.
Pay attention to the down feathers next time. If the bird looks like this and has normal (long) down than it is a brown.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

In this particular picture, looks to be dilute blue (silver) rather than brown.

False pearl eyes have pink instead of red in the iris.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> In this particular picture, looks to be dilute blue (silver) rather than brown.
> 
> False pearl eyes have pink instead of red in the iris.


My browns have eyes pretty much as 'red' as the blues. In the nest, brown's eyes are pinkish, but they do not stay that way for long, and usually are indistinguishable by the time they leave the nest, until the eyes clear up and the false pearl is evident.

I have a pair of squabs just leaving the nest now, one indigo brown the other dilute indigo and their eyes are identical.

I'll defer to the majority here, and agree with dilute blue though.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)




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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> In this particular picture, looks to be dilute blue (silver) rather than brown.
> 
> *False pearl eyes have pink instead of red in the iris.*


Do you say this from personal experience or do you have a source for this infomation?



rudolph.est said:


> My browns have eyes pretty much as 'red' as the blues. In the nest, brown's eyes are pinkish, but they do not stay that way for long, and usually are indistinguishable by the time they leave the nest, until the eyes clear up and the false pearl is evident.
> 
> I have a pair of squabs just leaving the nest now, one indigo brown the other dilute indigo and their eyes are identical.
> 
> I'll defer to the majority here, and agree with dilute blue though.


I'm confused here. You seem to contradict Becky and yourself.
I'm Just trying to get to the bottom of this.
You say your browns have red like any other bird? But that they are pink in the nest and quickly change. and than they clear up and the false pearl is evident? By what way is it evident at this point?

We have brown in our flights. I've posted about them twice in genetics and my brother has talked about them once elsewhere. These birds along with all Flight have a very pearl eye, i.e no or _very_ faint vein lines. Which does not change at all once being flown.

As I spoke in another thread about this, my point is saying it is a brown based on eye color seems illogical as homer have a real pearl eye. If the bird is brown and has recessive pearl than we have no way of using the eye as a deciding factor.

I don't think anyone would diagree that the best way to decide brown vs dun is based on down feathers: which can be seen until around 30 days of age.
We have some in our loft which are very hard to tell apart.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

AZCorbin said:


> I'm confused here. You seem to contradict Becky and yourself.
> I'm Just trying to get to the bottom of this.
> You say your browns have red like any other bird? But that they are pink in the nest and quickly change. and than they clear up and the false pearl is evident? By what way is it evident at this point?


Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse. All I meant is that adult browns do not have pink eyes. The squabs do though but lose the pinkish sheen before they leave the nest. 



AZCorbin said:


> We have brown in our flights. I've posted about them twice in genetics and my brother has talked about them once elsewhere. These birds along with all Flight have a very pearl eye, i.e no or _very_ faint vein lines. Which does not change at all once being flown.


I have no experience with 'eye-sign' and vein lines. All I know is that in an adult bird you cannot tell a real pearl eye from false pearl with the naked eye. False pearls are not more pink in the adult.



AZCorbin said:


> As I spoke in another thread about this, my point is saying it is a brown based on eye color seems illogical as homer have a real pearl eye. If the bird is brown and has recessive pearl than we have no way of using the eye as a deciding factor.


What you say is true, since a dun bird could have pearl eyes, distinguishing a brown from this dun by eyes alone would be impossible. The opposite is not true tough, if a bird does not have [false or real] pearl eyes, it definitely _cannot _be brown.



AZCorbin said:


> I don't think anyone would disagree that the best way to decide brown vs dun is based on down feathers: which can be seen until around 30 days of age.
> We have some in our loft which are very hard to tell apart.


I hope no-one would disagree with you there... But we do not have the luxury in this case, since there is no down left here. I also have both brown and dilute in my loft, and they are easy to tell apart, if you have them side by side. In a picture, it is sadly not so easy. The easiest way to tell brown from dun in an adult is to look at how much the feathers are bleached by the sun. Browns fade a *LOT* more in the sun than does dilute. I'll try to get a picture this weekend.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> What you say is true, since a dun bird could have pearl eyes, distinguishing a brown from this dun by eyes alone would be impossible. The opposite is not true tough, if a bird does not have [false or real] pearl eyes, it definitely _cannot _be brown.


Mumtaztic recites from Joe Quinn saying to the contrary. I can't copy and paste from his site but will type a little of it.


> ...most brown birds show false pearl eyes,...According to Joe Quinn, brown pigeons seldom have orange eyes. This so-called "false pearl" eye and it is a good identification clue for brown.


That's from the second half of the 3rd paragraph:
http://mumtazticloft.com/m_brown.asp

Like I said I don't know if that's true since our brown eyes are _really_ pearl.
Just passing it along.



rudolph.est said:


> I hope no-one would disagree with you there... But we do not have the luxury in this case, since there is no down left here. I also have both brown and dilute in my loft, and they are easy to tell apart, if you have them side by side. In a picture, it is sadly not so easy. The easiest way to tell brown from dun in an adult is to look at how much the feathers are bleached by the sun. Browns fade a *LOT* more in the sun than does dilute. I'll try to get a picture this weekend.


If scroll down a few post in here I made a thread/video called brown vs dun.
We have several shades of brown and some are very dark and very dun like. Others are simple to tell a part. But yes once they get some bleaching done it is rather easy.
[that video was mainly made for NY flight people who call browns duns. for tru duns they don't work...]


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

AZCorbin said:


> Mumtaztic recites from Joe Quinn saying to the contrary. I can't copy and paste from his site but will type a little of it.
> That's from the second half of the 3rd paragraph:
> 
> 
> ...


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> AZCorbin said:
> 
> 
> > Mumtaztic recites from Joe Quinn saying to the contrary. I can't copy and paste from his site but will type a little of it.
> ...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

AZCorbin said:


> rudolph.est said:
> 
> 
> > Untill you have bred and or witnessed every brown pigeon how can you thus speak in such an absolute way?
> ...


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

So this one is brown?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

TwinTurboPigeon said:


> So this one is brown?


Yip, brown check or T-pattern grizzle (also pied - notice the white flight).


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Ohh, okay then. Thanks for everyone's inputs! 

It has two white feathers on the other side of it's wing.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I can still see enough of the eye to think it has a red or orange eye and is therefore not brown, I would like to see a lighter pic of the eye to be certain

AZ - False pearl and Pearl eye IMLE are visually different as the pearl eye is a light "pearl colour" with the false being pearly in the centre of the iris darkening out to red".

I too understood all browns were false pearl, or of course pearl if they carry the gene in a homozygous state. I am yet to find an exception to the rule.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> AZCorbin said:
> 
> 
> > Because there is empirical evidence that supports this  I know that one should defer to masters like Quin. It is largely accepted that the brown mutation causes a false pearl eye.
> ...


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Sorry, I still say this bird looks like a dilute blue t-pattern grizzle (looks to be a young tiger grizzle).


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Your guy's and gal's guesses are better than mine, I call it "brown grizzle". I don't know genetics; I call it by how they look like, LOL.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I do not think its tiger grizzle from looking at it but could be. Wheres a pic of the eye, It may indeed settle the discussion around whether the bird is brown or Blue dilute.
I am still thinking Blue - Dilute - T pattern - het grizzle.

With regards to the guesses almost useless, In some cases, even with pics and also knowing the parentage we can make definitive responses as to what the bird is. Of course in most cases there are multiple options and we can guess which is more likely.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Looks like a young brown T-pattern grizzle to me. (Could possibly be dilute instead of brown, the picture is a little dark to be certain)





AZCorbin said:


> Well let me say I haven't read anything from Joe Quinn or anyone else who has a book. I have only read a few genetic sites which may or may not quote from some of these guys.
> Having said that is you empirical evidence all your own? My reason for saying is if I used my own empirical evidence than I would say there is no difference between brown pigeons eyes vs any other color. However I have read quite a bit to say there is so I trust that. Having said that since your claim is based on empirical evidence you must then assume Joe's statement was just arbitrary? Or is it possible that perhaps Joe said his based also on empirical evidence?
> 
> Just FYI you stated this bird was dilute blue in your first post. Didn't know if you were confusing it with the other thread or changing your mind.
> ...


I suggest you read Rudolphs first post again, I have quoted it in for your convenience. 

Can you find a brown bird without false or pearl eye? I certainly never have and I know a lot of breeders here which keep a large amount of brown in their loft. I am not sure who is claiming or even who has proved this but I have heard it for years and have not yet found an exception to the rule, If you can, then maybe this is worthy of more discussion, until then, I am happy to stick with what I have observed as well as what has been stated many times by many people in the past.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I suggest you read Rudolphs first post again, I have quoted it in for your convenience.
> 
> Can you find a brown bird without false or pearl eye? I certainly never have and I know a lot of breeders here which keep a large amount of brown in their loft. I am not sure who is claiming or even who has proved this but I have heard it for years and have not yet found an exception to the rule, If you can, then maybe this is worthy of more discussion, until then, I am happy to stick with what I have observed as well as what has been stated many times by many people in the past.


Thank you re posting that. I somehow over read that about it possibly being brown.

To answer your question no I have not seena brown with an orange eye, however I have never seen a brown without a vibrant pearl eye with no red whatsoever I quoted (second quote) myself on this so you can see that I already mentioned it. But I forgive you for reading past it as I am guilty of the same...
Now let me quote myself so you can re read something else I said
[bold emphasis added]



AZCorbin said:


> Mumtaztic recites from Joe Quinn saying to the contrary. I can't copy and paste from his site but will type a little of it.
> That's from the second half of the 3rd paragraph:
> http://mumtazticloft.com/m_brown.asp
> 
> ...





AZCorbin said:


> Well let me say I haven't read anything from Joe Quinn or anyone else who has a book. I have only read a few genetic sites which may or may not quote from some of these guys.
> Having said that is you empirical evidence all your own? My reason for saying is if I used my own empirical evidence than I would say there is no difference between brown pigeons eyes vs any other color. However I have read quite a bit to say there is so I trust that. *Having said that since your claim is based on empirical evidence you must then assume Joe's statement was just arbitrary? Or is it possible that perhaps Joe said his based also on empirical evidence? *
> 
> Just FYI you stated this bird was dilute blue in your first post. Didn't know if you were confusing it with the other thread or changing your mind.
> ...


I don't know if you all are aware of something called genetic crossover. This is when sometimes genes do not cross together and may be closly linked and usually get inherted together, but sometimes do not. 
Thus making it a very real possibility that you could get browns without "false pearl"

Here is a link to a video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pcpZiKHbM8

So Evan I will ask you the same two questions I ask Rudolph.

*Having said that since your claim is based on empirical evidence you must then assume Joe's statement was just arbitrary? Or is it possible that perhaps Joe said his based also on empirical evidence? *


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Its a dun grizzle carrying brown.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

thepigeonkey said:


> Its a dun grizzle carrying brown.


Did you breed this bird? Otherwise how could you have any idea whether it is carrying brown?


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Good point Rudolph. I didn't breed it. Just havin a guess. Have you ever noticed grizzle lets some recessive modifiers show through?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I have a grizzle blue split for brown and split for dilute (on the same chromosome) and I have never seen any hint of either expressing through the grizzle. Almond on the other hand, does allow for such expression of certain recessives ...


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

True. I see recessive red in my ash red grizzles and my ash red grizzles carrying dilute are always lighter red, it may be co-incidences.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

A bronzing caused by carrying recessive red has often been discussed in these forums. I see visible bronzing in the shield of most of my het. RR birds, even when grizzle is not in the mix.

As to your ash-red grizzles, it might be a coincidence, but it could be a valid point of study. I don't keep any ashes at the moment, and have never bred ash-yellows, so you could be on to something there...


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Here is it's eye....

Another question: What is the difference between "Red" and "Ash Red"?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

That eye is definitely not pearl or false pearl. This bird is dilute (not brown ... sorry I loose)!

As to the difference between red and ash-red:

Red is used to describe a color, usually a brick-red color, that is seen in pigeons and that can be caused by 2 genes.

The names of these genes are Ash-red (a sex-linked dominant mutation at the B locus) and the other is recessive red (a recessive autosomal mutation).

In other words there are two 'reds' in pigeons, but when people don't specify whether they are talking about ash-red or recessive red, you should be able to figure out from context which of the two they are referring to. To be perfectly honest, I prefer to always specify ash-red or recessive red in order to ensure clarity in discussions.


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## TwinTurboPigeon (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

LOL, No one lost Rudolph. Its a process of elimination, not a competition.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

AZ, I won't quote you as it will take up another page of the thread.

I read the article now, I was not too interested in all honesty as I am quite satisfied with what I have observed, as well as that, Until someone shows me a brown bird with an orange eye I am not too worried about investigating the claims.

I read your source, When was this published?, It states that Brown birds seldom have orange eye, It almost sounds as though the author believes all brown birds will have false pearl but does not have the solid evidence to publish this statement, Maybe this evidence is now available somewhere?


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

Looks like a pearl eye to me.



NZ Pigeon said:


> It states that Brown birds seldom have orange eye, It almost sounds as though the author believes all brown birds will have false pearl but does not have the solid evidence to publish this statement, Maybe this evidence is now available somewhere?


Like I said twice before. I am just passing this information along. I never stated one way or the other to what I believe. However I have no reason to doubt what I read.
Gene crossover is very simple explanition to justify his claim, though I have not studied brown pigeons.
I am not sure why he would say seldom just because he didn't have enough evidence to say otherwise. Saying seldom indicates that it does in fact happen, not often, but seldomly...

Would he not just say something like: It appears as if brown's always have a false pearl eye? If that is what he believed?

He doesn't even say it may be seldom, but says it is seldom, implying that he has seen it.
I doubt he was just 'blowing smoke' when he said that and had a good reason for stating such things.



> sel·dom (sldm)
> adv.
> Not often; infrequently or rarely. See Usage Note at rarely.
> adj. Archaic
> Infrequent; rare.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/seldom


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for the definition of seldom.
With regards to the subject at hand, let me know when you have some better evidence to support what you are saying/reading if you like.
As I say, I am not to concerned about this subject. All the browns I have, or have seen have false pearl. I use an orange or red eye as a way of ruling out a bird being brown, Until the birds, or someone provide me with some evidential data to the contrary, I will carry on thinking this way, I could be wrong for sure, but have not yet had that proved to me.

This birds eye to me does not look false pearl.


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## AZCorbin (Feb 28, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Thanks for the definition of seldom.
> With regards to the subject at hand, let me know when you have some better evidence to support what you are saying/reading if you like.
> As I say, I am not to concerned about this subject. All the browns I have, or have seen have false pearl. I use an orange or red eye as a way of ruling out a bird being brown, Until the birds, or someone provide me with some evidential data to the contrary, I will carry on thinking this way, I could be wrong for sure, but have not yet had that proved to me.
> 
> This birds eye to me does not look false pearl.


Well it's hard for me to pick up on emotions through typed words however It appears as if you are being sarcastic when you say thanks for the definition? Either way you are welcome. You clearly needed to see it since you tried changing the meaning of 'seldom' to align with 'never'.

There are plenty of things you speak about in which you take the words of others.
I suppose you have never heard of the late Joe Quinn before but was a well respected geneticist/biolgist.
[link provided]

I believe you are selling your self short here. You have presupposition about what a brown pigeon is; when you come across something contrary to that you say well than it is not a brown. How then could I ever prove a brown could have orange eyes? This is called the 'No true Scottsman fallacy' I suggest you watch the video I previously posted (in this thread) about genetic crossover.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I understand genetic crossover and I agree you could be right. 
Yes I have heard of Joe Quinn and no I did not try and state seldom meant never, I took the whole paragraph and from that took that there was no certainty on percentages or studies performed to figure out what the cause was. Maybe he used seldom as it covered the possibility that some birds may have orange eyes for various reasons that he was clearly unsure of, otherwise the facts would have been published. I am not thick as you seem to be trying to make out but I do prefer to take scientifically proven facts into account when working with my birds, as far as this subject goes, I need more from you than He wrote "********************" so it must be true.


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