# blue check x blue check = black?



## K.Sweeney (May 27, 2009)

If I'm understanding "spread" correctly, two medium blue checks (in a loft that had only blue bars and blue checks, NO blacks) should not be able to produce blacks. So the question is … can spread be masked (the blue checks) or mimicked (the black babies) by some other factor?

Thanks in advance.
Kevin


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## birds+me=happy (May 21, 2009)

Try this awsome website for all your genetic questions = http://www.national-federation.co.uk/Pigeon_Calculator_Advanced.htm


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

If a bird is carrying spread, it shows. It's a dominate factor.
What you could be seeing, is what some often refer to as "blue-tailed blacks". In genetic terms, the bird is actually t-pattern check, or 'velvet' as some call it. Although the wings may look black, the tail on a velvet is still your typical blue bar type tail. Whereas on a black bird, the tail is completely black.

Another thing you could see is a dirty bird. Sometimes birds ****. for dirty look VERY dark, and may appear black. But you'll still *sometimes faintly* be able to see the wing and tail bars. These birds also have dark feet and beak.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If a bird is carrying spread, it shows. It's a dominate factor.
> What you could be seeing, is what some often refer to as "blue-tailed blacks". In genetic terms, the bird is actually t-pattern check, or 'velvet' as some call it. Although the wings may look black, the tail on a velvet is still your typical blue bar type tail. Whereas on a black bird, the tail is completely black.
> 
> Another thing you could see is a dirty bird. Sometimes birds ****. for dirty look VERY dark, and may appear black. But you'll still *sometimes faintly* be able to see the wing and tail bars. These birds also have dark feet and beak.


I knew you'd come along and answer his question. I wasn't even THINKING about attempting it........


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## Homer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

The Genetic Website is interested, never tried it before. Well, I have a All White Cock paired to a Black (little white tip on the legs) Hen and they gave me a Light Gray Cream Bar and a White w/ a light gray patch on the back. How did i get a Cream bar????


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Homer87 said:


> The Genetic Website is interested, never tried it before. Well, I have a All White Cock paired to a Black (little white tip on the legs) Hen and they gave me a Light Gray Cream Bar and a White w/ a light gray patch on the back. How did i get a Cream bar????


*How about posting a picture of these two birds and their young. Do you breed in a open loft? * GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Kevin*



K.Sweeney said:


> If I'm understanding "spread" correctly, two medium blue checks (in a loft that had only blue bars and blue checks, NO blacks) should not be able to produce blacks. So the question is … can spread be masked (the blue checks) or mimicked (the black babies) by some other factor?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Kevin


Well, you can't really get a true black from two blue checks so something else must be going on here. Photos would certainly help.

Spread blue, whether bar, check, t pattern or barless will appear as a black pigeon. Spread masks all patterns and is dominant. Even a heterozygous spread blue appears as black. You cannot get t patterns from checks either as t pattern is dominant to check, bar and barless. In other words, blue checks or bars cannot carry t pattern.

First of all, are you certain that all of your birds are blue bars and checks? Spread ash reds are bluish in color but of course would not have black bars or checks. 

Dirty makes most colors darker but even t patterns that have dirty should be able to be distinguished from a true black (spread blue).

Got any pictures that you can post?

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Easy*



Homer87 said:


> The Genetic Website is interested, never tried it before. Well, I have a All White Cock paired to a Black (little white tip on the legs) Hen and they gave me a Light Gray Cream Bar and a White w/ a light gray patch on the back. How did i get a Cream bar????


The white cock is actually an ash red dilute or an ash red that is split for dilute. The cream will be a hen. All whites are either ash red, blue or brown, just like all other pigeons. The white is probably a recessive white, which can be any of the three base colors. Does it have dark eyes?

Bill


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## K.Sweeney (May 27, 2009)

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for your replies. Unfortunately the parents and babies are long gone. No pictures. I've got a lot more reading to do and I'll keep the camera handy.

Later.
Kevin


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## Homer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

Sorry K. Sweeney, don' t mean to steal your thread.

I thought I was going to get babies that were black and white from this pair.

I didn't get the Cock since its sitting on eggs (All White, Bull Eye) 
This is the Black Hen:
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/Homer08j/P6031374.jpg

This is the young, I thinks its a cream bar, but I'm not sure. Its some kind of color bar:
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/Homer08j/P6031373.jpg

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Different Pair:
Then these, the mom is the Black and the dad is a silver bar sitting on eggs (not in the picture) and the youngs off of these are the silver or brown bar and the all silver next to the mom. Is Black not a dominant color??

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/Homer08j/P6031377.jpg


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Baby does not look dilute*



Homer87 said:


> Sorry K. Sweeney, don' t mean to steal your thread.
> 
> I thought I was going to get babies that were black and white from this pair.
> 
> ...


The youngster looks to be ash red with weak bars and not dilute. See what it looks like after the moult. This just means that the father is an ash red recessive white and all young will be ash reds unless the hen also carries recessive white. He must also be pied, which also does not show in a white bird. He could also carry other factors but only the young will tell you what they may be.

Black is just spread blue and blue is not dominant to ash red. If the black is homozygous for spread, then all young would be spread ash reds or lavenders. These vary alot in how they look from nice lavender to muddy messes. Ash red cocks can carry blue or brown but they will show flecks in wingtips and tail, indicating what they are split for. If they are split blue, they will have black flecks, if they are split for brown, they will have brown (grayish) flecks.

When you say silver, I think you are referring to ash red bars and this color is dominant to all others. Ash red cocks make for all ash red young unless they are split for something else such as blue, brown, dilute and many others.

Bill


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Also want to add that your 'all silver' bird is called Lavender, or spread ash-red. Mom is het. for spread.


Plus, Bill, doesn't that 'cream bar' bird look a little dark to you (the grey feathers)? Makes for an interesting looking pigeon when you have weak bars on that color base.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Maybe Milky ?*

*Hi ALL, Well the RED bar seems to have a milky look about him/her.Every time I look at the photo I seem to see milky,it may be that it is harder to see it on red bar. It is not a dilute that is for sure.* GEORGE


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## Homer87 (Nov 2, 2008)

Will the red bar get the red coloring on the neck when it gets older like other red bars??


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Becky*



MaryOfExeter said:


> Also want to add that your 'all silver' bird is called Lavender, or spread ash-red. Mom is het. for spread.
> 
> 
> Plus, Bill, doesn't that 'cream bar' bird look a little dark to you (the grey feathers)? Makes for an interesting looking pigeon when you have weak bars on that color base.



Yes, alittle bit dark. Smoky, dirty or sooty can all do this. Sooty usually makes false checks so that's probably not it. Smoky gets rid of albescent strips, which can be hard to find on ash red anyway. Dirty darkens feathers and makes black feet which fade to normal when they become adults, also usually makes dark beaks and toenails.

The bird does look alittle different but ash reds vary quite a bit.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*



george simon said:


> *Hi ALL, Well the RED bar seems to have a milky look about him/her.Every time I look at the photo I seem to see milky,it may be that it is harder to see it on red bar. It is not a dilute that is for sure.* GEORGE


It doesn't look milky to me, they are usually pretty light. There might be a slight possibility that the bird is even spread with faint bars showing through. I have some ash red figs that I would have never guessed were spread but mated to blue bars, they produced blacks. The dirty, sooty and smoky factors can make a shield that is not lavender at all on a spread ash red. Even without the dirties, spread ash reds that look like nice lavenders are somewhat hard to get, many messy muddy ones show up. 

I'll admit that the bird looks alittle different but in ash red pigeons, we could say that about many of them. Throw in some modifiers like above or bronze or het recessive red and they can take on many different looks.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Glad*

*Hi Bill, Glad you brought up the spread thing I have some Italian Owls that show a bit washed out will see if they might throw black The red cock that they come out of carrys blue/black,but I have never seen anything that would indercate spread,the last two young that he threw are very light reds all most pinkish.* GEORGE


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