# String pigeon: very infected!



## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Walked home from work,
Saw a pigeon with seriously infected/swollen feet(pics to come)
When I was trying to bait him, other pigeons would bully and he would breathe from his mouth and just didn't look good at all.
I caught him, he's now in a dark box with water and seeds, isn't kicking up too much of a fuss, just walking around a bit.

I called the wildlife center and will hopefully be able to go drop him off after tomorrow. I really don't think there's anything I can personally do without risking a bleed out(which I don't feel capable of handling)

Is there anything I can do in the meantime awaiting professional help?

I'm in downtown Toronto, Canada


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Pics. They're blurry but its the best I can do holding him with one hand, camera in the other: He's quite the fighter and doesn't stand up so pictures in his cage wouldn't happen. Already you can see the extensive damage: one toe is stringed and has a bit of bone sticking out. The other foot is wraped and infected like heck.... I don't plan on touching the strings...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBiscuit,


The images are too out of focus.


Make sure, if you are going to drop him off, that they will not euthenize again.

Most of those places give the glad hand to the person dropping off, and then wring the Bird's Neck as you walk out the Door.

They do not have 'time' or personell for dealing with anything which takes time or attention or care or finesse, or which requires intelligence or experience or both.

What are they going to do with it even if they did? Find a home for it?



I have done many 'String Feet', and if you want to hang on to this Bird and manage his recovery, I would be glad to help from here.


Again, as ever, any New Bird, no food untill seeing how the actual poops and urates are looking, seeing how other things are, and, this, by having them in an observaiton Cage or 'Box' with look-out-holes in the sides, with White Towelling or Paper Towels on the bottom so you can see the poops and urates.

Can you check inside his Mouth and Throat?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

-Forgive me but my camera is difficult at night with the fluorescents. No pics of poop, but they're a good colour, holds its noodly shape but not firm in a ball, a little liquid, but not soupy liquid.

-Here are the feet pictures. 

-I have no experience with feet this badly injured. There are dead pieces, lots of swelling, some scabs and probably some abcesses....

-I don't have any fancy pigeon meds, just human stuff right now.




























His right foot is the most damaged and has some yellow, foul-smelling skin(dying?), scabs over missing toes and severe swelling.

His left foot is swollen up to his knee, missing most toes. The thread was more loose than I thought, so I was able to remove it(and the dead toe) without any trouble or damage.

Please help walk me through this, this guy is very much alive and alert despite his injuries,...

what's next?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBiscuit,



Get some very fine slender pointy ( needle-pointy) Tweezers...( and Drug Store or Home Medical Supply place will have them for a couple of bucks).

Get some good Magnifying Glasses to wear unless you have exceptional close Vision for super fine detail...

Sit under good Light, a Bright Desk Lamp...have someone help if need be, so you can have both hands free.

Have the Pigeon at an incline, head highest, but on his Back...a thin light cloth over his Head.

Cradled thus on a Towel-hollow as the Towel is draped over your legs as you sit, with your Feet elevated to make a good incline. Use a SHoe Box or something to get your Feet a foot or so up off the floor.


The fibres will be wrapped deeply in both directions usually...and the super fine slender Tweezers are necessary to carefully come in parallel to the Fibre's wrap, and, lift them up to then work the 'loop' or end aspect, around. The fibres are often covered in this dry scar tissue, or, held captive by such.

Any remaining Fibres must be carefully un-wound and removed...patience...

Once satisfied there is absolutely no fibres remaining....use a soft Tooth Brush and gently 'Brush' his Feet with Soap in rinsing with tepid Water...then, once dry, get a tube of regular 'Neosporin' and slather his Feet throroughly, massaging it in well...then, repeat the 'Neosporin' every day.


Have his Drinking Water be ACV-Water of say 2-1/2 Tablespoons to a Gallon ( "Braggs" is the Brand-of-Choice for this, any Health Food Store will have it.)

A systemic Antibiotic would be nice...maybe we have members near you who could send you some, or, you could order some from a Pigeon Supply place via the Internet.

Enroflaxyn would be fine...

Given you have entered that phase of Life's hitherto unexpected adventures of aiding these Birds, where, you will be finding injured or ill Pigeons now, you may as well send off for some Meds to have on hand I think.


Soft light color Towelling for his Cage Bottom.

Do you have a Cage for him?

iI not, 'free cycle' is a good way to go.



An old Album of a 'String Foot' - 


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/548827625dbNzVH

Click to enlarge 1st Image, then you can read the Captions.


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Ok, I have good tweezers and small embroidery scissors. Was able to get all the strings(and two dead toes) off. Slathered the feet in polysporin. Lots of bits of dead skin/blood/dirt/etc came off as I massaged it in. Overall the feet look much better. The little trouper is now sitting in a nest of towels. I'm glad to report that there was no bleeding.

-Is there anything I can maybe give him for the pain? swelling?
-The makeshift cage is a largeish crate turned over, with a sheet over it. I'm looking for a cage right now...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

-Ok, cage issue resolved.
-I looked into his mouth, I didn't notice anything off, will check again with better light later/tomorrow after he's rested a bit


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just dropping in to say, WELL DONE, DanceBiscuit!!

Keep up the good work!

THANKS for helping, Phil! 

Sure hope all goes well for this one. He sounds like a survivor!!

Will look forward to positive updates!!

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Thanks Squeaks  I'm feeling very accomplished.

And yes, he is quite the trouper, very alert, which is encouraging.

I'm concerned about releasing him. I'm not sure whether he'll be able to: Like I said, when I was trying to catch him, he got bullied by quite a few birds who would step on and peck at him. I don't know how pigeons 'work' as a flock,... would he be able to re-integrate?


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Maybe just take one day at a time. Wait for him to get his "big bird" voice.

And, see how he gets around with missing toes. I imagine he will do just fine.

However, others may have some comments about release....like, Phil...

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> Ok, I have good tweezers and small embroidery scissors. Was able to get all the strings(and two dead toes) off. Slathered the feet in polysporin. Lots of bits of dead skin/blood/dirt/etc came off as I massaged it in. Overall the feet look much better. The little trouper is now sitting in a nest of towels. I'm glad to report that there was no bleeding.
> 
> -Is there anything I can maybe give him for the pain? swelling?
> -The makeshift cage is a largeish crate turned over, with a sheet over it. I'm looking for a cage right now...


Hi DanceBiscuit,


Glad to hear!

Well done..

I imagine he feels a great deal better just as it is.


Post some more images tomorrow of the Feet, so I cen see the 'after'.


I do not know of any thing safe and easy to use for their Pain, but, I am confident he is feeling vastly better for your attentions so far...so, I would ot worry about it.

Massaging each Toe, and the pad area, and so on, gently betwen your Finger Tips will aid in encouraging circulation, as will warm Foot Baths.

You can do the massage things as often as you like, and, do the warm Foot Bath combined with it even, as often as you like, and or prior to each days 'Neosporin'.

These will help.



Best wishes!

Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How 'bout some images of the Bird himself also?


Once his system has healed things up, he will not be in the kind of pain he was...so, walking and standing and so on, will be much easier for him, even if missing a few digits.


He will then find less attention from Bullies.


Another old Album showing something of how I hold them.

They are usually very co-operative, and, I explain everything I am going to do, holding them to my own Eye level, first.

Sometimes they are easier if their Head is lightly covered, and, even with that, usually once things are begun, and they understand better what one is doing with their Feet, they are able to watch and participate with no covering, it all depends.


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/468669808EgjJHs


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Alright, some pictures. I tried to take updates of the feet(since he tried to fly off) but he chooses to hug them very close to his body. The feet are still swollen(and probably will be for a while.. anything I can put on it?) but the pink is probably a good sign that there's blood flowing.

I hope the shock wears off by tomorrow...

A few spots on his right foot have black patches. Will take more pics tomorrow...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think this is a Hen.


She looks quite accepting and appreciative...a good looking Hen she is, too. Still in her prime.


Just keep on with the finger-tip-pad Neosporin 'Massages', working it into all the inflamed and injured areas, and massaging them between finger pads...and occasional Warm Water Feet-Baths-Soaks...and understand it will take a while for things to heal up from here...shedding dead tissues, regaining good circulation, eliminating the inflammation/infection/swelling...and as those things progress, he will feel vastly better about standing and walking again.


I am sure she was in some terrible pain the way things were...and is feeling greatly relieved and better now.

I always see a palpable and unambigious "look" and mood of relief and better-feeling globally, once having got the initial phases dealt with, as you have here on him.


Imagine what for us, is the potentially excrutiating pain of a merely mildly infected ingrown Toe Nail edge...the slightest bump, even in Shoes, and we see 'Stars' and get weak knee'd and breathless ( I have anyway! with that) .


When I get these 'String Feet' Pigeons, there are of course degrees of severity.

Some I can release the same day, others, I may have for a week or so...others, I may have for several or even many Weeks, fitting a series of Orthopaedic or Diorthotic and even elevated 'Shoes' to correct and bring back their 'Thumb', till I am satisfied things are good-enough for them to manage alright back in the Wild.

You could let her have a small size Scotch & Water, cool or room temp ( no Ice ) made to about the same strength as one would for a regular person, or a little lighter...but made to her scale/size/weight.

When I do this, I either let them have access to a normal sized Drink for a short period ( half a Shot of Scotch to say a six ounce Cup of Water), or, I make a smaller one which has an Alcohol content which would not bother them if they drank a lot of it, or all of it, for their size.

Their tolerance of mL/K Ethyl Alcohol, is about the same as an average person or older child, but, of course, their size is a lot smaller!


So, a 'whole' Drink for them, needs to be of their scale/size/weight...maybe a Shot Glass of Water, and a few 'drops' of Scotch...so if they drink it all, they will not get crocked or get the 'spins'.

This can ease pain, promote Circulation, and relax them to boot, and so on, same as it would for a person.

Most Pigeons and Doves I have known seem to like Scotch & Water...also liking any good Dark Beer, like Guiness, Newcastle, Old Peculiar, Samuel Smiths Oatmeal Stout, and others of that ballywick.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Scotch, eh? I'll pick up a small bottle today along with more polysporin and whatnot.

This morning, I found him sitting up in his cage, and right now I'm breathing a sigh of relief: i can hear the shuffly clicky noises that reassure me that he's eating. phew. awesome.

Victor is seeing the vet this morning, and I'll probably find out exactly what's going on with his wing.

More updates to come!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow! That was some amount of string on that foot, Phil! So glad you got it off!

Maybe Victor and "Strings" could be buds, DanceBiscuit?? IF both are kept, of course. 

Scotch? Darn...I prefer Bourbon myself....some for the pijies and sooooome for me!! 

Looking forward to more updates!

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A good Bourbon is fine also of course...


Thought this was a Hen, now it looks like a Male.

Lol...


Anyway, all of the various String Feet ones I have done, were released, once I was happy all was healed and good-to-go for the Wild Life again...so, none on hand, and, of who knows, maybe a hundred through the years, I only did those two little incomplete Albums.

Silk filliments, and fine human Hair, are probably the worst...they do not weaken with sunshine and wet over time, and are so thin they tend to cut deeply as they tighten.

Some synthetic filliments do this also.

People brush their Hair betwen times, and toss the Wair clump from the Brush...Birds find this, bring it to their Nest...and then it gets tangled and tightening around their feet.


Anyway, so far so good!


He might like some Fennel or Anise Seeds, rubbed between your Palms to crush them slightly and bring out their scent, and set onto his regular Seeds. It is a little mood brightener for them.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Dry foot pics, pre-polysporin rub. I think I've mastered the art of in-focus photography, hehe...
Right foot:


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Left foot:


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

mr squeaks said:


> Maybe Victor and "Strings" could be buds, DanceBiscuit?? IF both are kept, of course.


Aye, that is the question of the week. Tomorrow I'll be making two cages, but as-is, they'd have to be housed in my room, I'm an appartment dweller, no yard, no room/money for a proper coop. I still need to find what will be best for the birds.

EDIT: he's been eating quite a bit. no clue if he's drinking though(I added a teensy bit of scotch since he freezes when I'm too near and I can't monitor his intake. I'll buy some of that children's med tomorrow since there's still a lot of swelling....)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBiscuit,




Looking very good there...


Image 2 of the sequence above...looks there may still be a bit of filliment remaining...have-a-look, and if there is, of course, unwind it and remove so none remains anywhere under any scarring.

I can see dead tissue or scab material loosening...very nice, everything is looking very good...swelling has gone down a lot.


What 'childrens med' are you referencing?


How are his poops and urates looking? Describe?


You can have him on your lap, on a folded thick Towel, with his Seed Bowl, and pretend 'peck' with your finger tip, and, he will likely eat with you, and be less nervous about the food and water thing if you are near.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

He's eating fine, and looks like he drank a bit, which is good.
The poo-urates are round balls, a little lighter in shade than Victor's.

The children's meds I referred to was one of many suggestions given regarding antibiotics by a few members:

Jaye
Also...I would STRONGLY recommend an anti-inflammatory. 
Medacam is the best choice...and hopefully the vet can prescribe some for you. 
If not, a distant second would be Children's Advil or Children's Motrin (liquid).

Karyn/Dobato
pick up enough for 7 days
at least 10oz (evaporation and waste) if you could get the 16oz bottle 
MARVEL AID ANTIBIOTIC

Triple Sulfa by API This med is in a powdered form, so is concentrated, 
you will need to pick up a few 1cc syringes from the drug store, the kind 
without the needle as well, if you get this med.

His legs are still very red and it would be best to get something for it...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

AH...a fellow apartment dweller! I've been in my ONE bdrm apartment since 1975! I moved in when the complex was new and adults only. There was _nothing_ around me but a small community college across the street, a small restaurant on a corner down the street and a hospital to the west. I watched this whole area grow and grow and...we even had the first shopping mall! 'Course, since then, things have certainly changed, and, unfortunately, not for the better! *sigh* The economy and time have played havoc with my area and many stores have closed. There has been talk about "revitalizing" the area, but...so far...not anything done!

But, I digress...I have FIVE pijies in my bedroom. Luckily, I can close the door between the bedroom and living/dining/kitchen area so Gimie, Woe and Dom can get out to exercise in the mornings. I have small animal cages for them. Squeaks' home measures 30"L x 21"W x 23"H. Woe and Gimie's home came from the bird store and measures 30"L x 18"W x 171/2"H.

Dom's home sits on top of Squeaks and Rae Charles, due to being blind, has her own home which sits on top of Woe and Gimie.

Also, all homes sit OFF the floor on either a low table or a steamer trunk. Makes things easier to clean. I also use vinyl shelving pieces on parts of the their floor if they have a "grill" bottom rather than a tray. 

Luckily, I have an end apartment with a South facing window and glass doors leading to my balcony, which faces East. I have LOTS of light and only get the morning sun on my balcony. But by almost mid morning there is lots of shade, helped by a couple of huge shade trees next to my apartment.

My apartment is only 660 sq. ft., but I love it and have no plans to move. I am also on the second floor. 

I use a shower curtain over my bedspread to catch poops and a towel on my dresser to cover stuff I don't want them pooping on. 

Oh yes, and then there is the home on my balcony that VAL used and is currently occupied by JoJoe!

Amazing what one can do with a little imagination!

Hope this helps!

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Those poor little feet - good job!


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Shi: wow,t hat sounds like an elaborate setup, is it possible to see a few pictures? I'm cleaning right now, but plan on getting some chicken wire of sorts to build a cage for Victor...

Cyreen: Thank you, he's calmed down quite a bit and the rest will do wonders


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*sigh* unfortunately, I don't own a digital camera so don't take pics and post. All the pictures that have been posted about my guys and my stories, have been done by Cindy (AZWhitefeather), who is my "picture/post guru!"

I know that I'm going to have to break down and buy a digital camera...one of these days...*sigh*...but so many things keep getting in my way!

The homes are all lined up on only one wall. I can lay on my side in bed and watch them if I so choose. 

Squeaks only spends the night in his home when he is in mate mode. He tends to chase Twiggy out of the bathroom so she can't use the litterbox...can't have that! Also, in mate mode, he goes "home" when I have to go out for more than a few hours...same reason. 

I think that is why she deliberately provokes him, at times, to chase her into the bedroom where she jumps up on the bed and he can't go. She looks down with a smirk, saying, "Na, na, na, can't get me here!" He looks up at her, roo cooing up a storm, until she jumps down and the chase is on back to the living room! *sigh* Fur and feathers...never a dull moment!

I really like small animal cages that the pet stores carry. Sometimes you can get them on sale. The ones sold in the pet stores tend to have wires too close together and it can mess up their feathers! With Squeaks' home, I was given a little piece of refrig shelving which sits on two dowel rods threw the two sides and sits off the bottom. That way, I can pull out the tray...works great! Of course, some cages have trays under the grate...

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

wait wait.. so you litter trained them? that sounds fantastic!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, in Nature, it seldom matters to a Bird where they poop.


Of course, when in or attending a Nest, they poop away or outside of the Nest.


They do understand very well, the option of pooping in an intentional spot or place, but, they generally have no reason in their mind to elect or exercise the option.

Some of my Caged convelescents only poop in one small corner of their cage, while others poop at random in their Cage, including dropping poops into their Water Cups.


Some of the free flying Pigeons in here through the years, as individuals, (only one at present who does this ) decided it would be amusing to poop on my head whenever opportunity permits.


They will send one sailing five feet away from a perch to do this, if necessary, and, their aim is quite good.

They then turn, only slightly, to see the result, and, my reaction, which amuses them.

I in turn, grab a Broom, and chase them for their transgression, in a mock affort of swatting them...which, of course, only adds to their amusement.

In fact, actually, all I have to say is "I'm gunna get the Broom!!!" and they take off like a Bat outta Hell...

So I actually never end up bothering with getting the Broom at all.

These are the Wild Pigeons who hang out in my Workshop...where, if the big Roll Up Door is open, and I say "I'm gunna get the Broom!" however many there are in the Shop, they all leave instantly. Lol...

Otherwise, they do not care what I say.



'Hawiian Shirts' work well for me.


Lol...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

LOL, what mischievious little guys!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes...

Don't let those demur, sheepish little Poker Faces fool you..!

They are very smart, they have a sense of humor, and, they can be calculating.

Do they have 'freecycle' in your area?

If so, look into it...it is a good source for Cages.

Thrift Stores 'as is' Yards also.

Cages are best for convelescents who are ill, or, injured, to keep them put, and to permit one to observe them and their poops and so on.

Once done with getting well, cages are no good, unless, for leaving an Open Cage, the Bird electes it on their own Volition...they will not tend to do this however, unless they do so as a Nest location with a Mate...so...


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

we're both perfectly fine with him just having a full run of my room, the only problem is the poop issue. 

I have three rats as well, and after work I usually let them have free reign of my room to run around a bit and play with them, so I'm blocking off their access to the top of my bookcase and dresser where Viktor likes to chill at times so he'll have a safe spot..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Healthy 'moist Raisin' poops are very easy to pick up and deal with.

Always seemed easy to me when my Aviary was my appartment living quarters.

One learns little habits, for their sake and one's own.

Putting up a high Shelf or other Roost amenity is good, allowing the Bird to have a place he or she likes to go at Night, safe from any interference or tresspass from others. Below this then, the Night poops fall, so then 1/3rd of all poops or more, are already easily segregated unto a specific 'Newspaper' layed spot.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Hey, look who I found standing on one leg this evening?








That HAS to be a sign of improvement 
(This was before cleaning his cage and giving his daily foot rub)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Indeed!


Someone is feeling better..!


Nice little Temoku Bowl there...


Do you collect Pottery?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I love that bowl, but no, I'm not a collector, it was just a lucky thrift store find. Its always nice to find objects that are both pretty and useful 

He's still drinking water with a smiiidge of scotch. The pet store I went to today didn't have the antibiotics I was looking for, so I will try again tomorrow at another store. If I have no luck there, I will get the children's motrin.

When I rubbed his feet, I was able to clip significant chunks of loose scab off his feet. They stay hooked on because of the bumpy swollen skin, so I would imagine a bit more swelling going down now...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...keep on with the warm Foot Baths, and, the Foot and Toe and Leg massages.

Any dead tissue or scab material will resolve on their own...with no need or benifit to hurry them by fussing with it...just takes a while, for new Tissue to fill in from below, and for old issues to repair themselves and re-adjust.

He looks good there in the image!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> we're both perfectly fine with him just having a full run of my room, *the only problem is the poop issue. *
> 
> I have three rats as well, and after work I usually let them have free reign of my room to run around a bit and play with them, so I'm blocking off their access to the top of my bookcase and dresser where Viktor likes to chill at times so he'll have a safe spot..


*Sounds like a cue for Boni's PGWear!*  

So glad Viktor is feeling better!

Sending healing thoughts with Love and Hugs

Shi


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Alright. This afternoon I gave Trooper his first dose of triple sulfa suspension(with pancake syrup). He wasn't the most cooperative and kicked up a fuss(which I take as a good sign: strength regaining) but eventually swallowed it all. I will give the second dose in the morning and then continue every 12 hours.

I gave his wierd one-toe foot a thorough lookover and couldn't find anything. A lot of the cut has already healed over with skin, and the deeper layers that are still raw are pretty much impossible to access


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

DanceBiscuit said:


> Alright. This afternoon I gave Trooper his first dose of triple sulfa suspension(with pancake syrup). He wasn't the most cooperative and kicked up a fuss(which I take as a good sign: strength regaining) but eventually swallowed it all.


Just wanted to say that you want to be very careful that the medicine (particularly because of the pancake syrup component) doesn't go down the airway because that can cause aspiration pneumonia later. Are you using 1cc syringes? You can medicate down the throat with those.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I used Dobato's suggestion to put drops in the tip of his beak and allow him to swallow it down. I wouldnt feel comfortable to medicate him down the throat.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

You might also be able to make tiny 'Bread Balls' about the size of say, a 'BB'.

Medicine is saturated into a tiny bit of Bread...the Bread then compressed into a little Ball...and 'popped' into their Beak far enough for them to swallow.

This assures a definite dose is successfully given, and, avoids dangers of accidentally having any Liquids entering their Trachea.

If you allow him some sorts of Seeds he likes, 'White Safflower' say, and for him to eat these from your Hand in an easy friendly way...he will more likely forgive you, if you pause, and say, "Oh! Lets not forget the special pain-in-the-caboose for you and me both BREAD BALL Seed ritual!", and, you can hold him, open his Beak, and 'pop' that down his gullet, and, return blythely to the Hand Palm Seed sharing/pecking, as if nothing had happened...offering praise for what a good Bird he is.

Ham up how 'special' the Bread Ball 'Seed' is in advance, and how it is a good thing and so on...pretending to eat one yourself, with lots of positive lip-smackin'-good reactions.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi DanceBiscuit, the bread balls that Phil mentioned, I myself have suggested to use this method before with other birds, just need 1/4" x 1/2 piece of fresh bread, two drops of meds on this, ball/compress it up, and pop it like this (you will need to do three balls, 2 drops per ball = 3 balls or 0.30mL of med):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Also, if you wrap him up in a small towel like a "burrito" where he is the filling and you have his head sticking out one end, you will have much better control over him for either method, try the balls and decide which is easier for you.

Karyn


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Thank you for the idea! I will keep it in mind 

I forgot to mention: When giving his odd foot a lookover, I must have accidentally disrupted some scabbing, because his foot began to bleed. I put pressure on it and it stopped easily enough...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> Thank you for the idea! I will keep it in mind
> 
> I forgot to mention: When giving his odd foot a lookover, I must have accidentally disrupted some scabbing, because his foot began to bleed. I put pressure on it and it stopped easily enough...



Ahhhh, well, that can happen...


Burrito wise - 


Lay a small Hand Towel on your lap as you sit legs together.


Have the Pigeon's Legs brought back to be parallel to his body, Feets by his Tail.

Press him as that, into the shallow trough of Cloth between your thighs, so his Feets are just outside the edge of the cloth...orientation should be him facing you.


Wrap one side of the cloth around, so it is snuggish about his lower body, and loosish about his upper body...

Wrap the other side over.


'Spigot' him then vertically, between your Thighs, grasping him there so his lower Body is what is being grasped.

This then allows you to have both Hands free, and for him to be stable, and vertical...and with the Feets outside the Cloth edge, he can not grab the Cloth with his Toes and be pushing for all he is worth, which they will do, otherwise.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Ah, wonderful, thank you for the 'Pigeon burrito' instructions, they'll come in handy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I bet it would work well for small people-kids also.


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Well done, DanceBiscuit, those feet are looking so much better! 

When it comes to pain control, I always use Metacam (1 drop inside the tip of the pigeon's beak, 20 minutes before starting the treatment), as it is an anti-inflammatory as well as pain reliever. NB Mustn't overdose, it would be dangerous.

Something for humans you may have around the house is Arnica gel. That's very good for reducing swelling for a sore limb or foot that is no longer infected.
Bathing in warm water with a few drops of Betadine or a spoonful of hydrogen peroxide is relaxing, disinfecting, and helps to loosen off scabs. Other members swear by Epsom salts.

I've also found that rubbing sterilized vaseline well into the foot and string, a few minutes before starting to remove the string, will losen it (and the callous that is often attached and stands in the way of new tissue re-growth) better than anything else I've tried.

You've been thrown in at the deep end, but you're doing a fantastic job!


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Burrito wise...


Is the pigeon lucid when you do this? Because I was trying to get a mental picture as I read this and, Ollie being my frame of reference, the end result of my little scenario wasn't so much "burrito" as BIG ANGRY PIGEON wing slapping me unconscious.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It takes some finesse...

This manner of securing the Pigeon permits vastly safer Tube Feedings and other oral or Crop related procedures....as well as allowing very thorough inspections of their Mouth and Throat.

It can be handy also for giving a 'Pill' to an otherwise resistive Pigeon, or if one has no practiced way otherwise.


It is comfortable for the Pigeon, and done correctly, permits great advantage and safety and compliance of the Bird, for the care giver to be able to do those various things.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I could be mistaken, Phil, but I think Cyreen was teasing you...knowing her sense of humor...could be mistaken tho... ROFL

Yep, Cyreen, Ollie would be perfect to "burrito," IF need be....Now, what Ollie would do to you AFTER being released....well....that's another story! 

Keep up the GREAT WORK, DanceBiscuit!! 

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh!


I can be oblivious sometimes...sorry...Lol...


Hot Weather though, one keeps the 'Burrito' time short...lest the Bird over-heat being wrapped like that...gotta watch that if it's hot temps.

Done right, the Pigeon does not mind, and usually I just set them on my thigh once done, and we talk and visit and kibits and so on, according to their condition or issues.

"Let me have the Beak please?" When Burrito'd for a 'pill' or other procedure...always, be polite, respectful, and ask and explain things.

Yeeeeesh, it is HOT here..!!!


Pouring sweat as I type...


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Oh! I can be oblivious sometimes...sorry...Lol...


S'alright, sometimes homour needs a straight-man to be funny. Besides, I was only half teasing - Ollie _really would_ wing slap me unconscious.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Cyreen said:


> S'alright, sometimes homour needs a straight-man to be funny. Besides, I was only half teasing - Ollie _really would_ wing slap me unconscious.


*Especially* in the dreaded *mornings*, I bet!! ROFLMAO 

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I just got a heck of a good Wing Slap from a 12 day old 'Peeper'.

I reached over to do a little friendly Preening...and, "WHAMMO!" Lol...plus he was huffing and Beak lashing with indignation.

This is one being raised by his own Pigeon parents...and I have not visited or said 'Hello!' very much.

So, I got put in my place alright, and fast, too..!

I guess we are lucky these are not the size of the old Phorusrhacid Species Birds.

We'd be in 'Traction' by now...or worse..!

Not to mention, needing a Snow Shovel...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Yeah, but in your case, Phil, a little more attention to the squirt, and he will be eating out of your hand..."pigeon whisperers" seem to have this ability!  

With many of us, tho, once in pigeon attack mode, always in pigeon attack mode! Human BEGONE! 

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, it's funny, I went back a little later, and he was all wiggles and bright and happy and asking me if I would feed him...'nuzzles' and wiggles...

I must have accidently surprised him before, and he did not know or remember what the heck I was.

Brave little 'Peeper'!!


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Someone filled him in on where the food comes from (psst... "Hey, Peeper!").

I just have the one pijie and she and I have our established routine of righteous indignation, followed by grudging capitulation ("Fine, if you must") - ruffles less feathers and she doesn't have to feel submissive. It works.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Cyreen said:


> Someone filled him in on where the food comes from (psst... "Hey, Peeper!").
> 
> *Gee, Phil, not why am I not surprised! Told ya so!*
> 
> I just have the one pijie and she and I have our established routine of righteous indignation, followed by grudging capitulation ("Fine, if you must") - ruffles less feathers and she doesn't have to feel submissive. It works.


ROFL  

'Course, Cyreen, you are *not* the "average" human and Ollie is *not* your "average" pigeon either!! You make a *fine* pair! AND, don't even get me started on Joule!! 

Still ROFL !!

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

So Trouper's still (reluctantly) taking his meds(tripple sulfa suspension). He's also spending more time on his feet and, when allowed free range of my room, does a decent job of pearching(though still teeters and absolutely can't just grip onto an uneven/more vertical surface because of feet)

Here is a pic of Trouper and Viktor a little closer together. Judging by Viktor's grumpy mood, it wasn't a welcome visit...









Off to clean Viktor's 'territory'. I made him that little nest bed yet he chooses to perch on my bed's 'footboard' at night. Go figure.

While I have your attentions: Can anyone suggest a book/link regarding pet pigeon behaviour/training? All I can find is stuff regarding keeping huge flocks for races or breeding, nothing more suited to my situation...

...I will check out the forum after my cleaning is done..


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Update: read through the basic care posts. I think what I'm looking for is something more in depth that deals with behavior, signs of possible illness, etc. I just don't want to keep harassing the forum with every little thing(and I'm also extremely curious)


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

Do you have a library card? I wouldn't want you buy because it pertains mostly to parrots, but any of Bonnie Munro Doane's books are interesting in regard to basic bird psychology (i.e. flock behavior, dominance, territory, etc.) that I think is applicable to any species (without being to brain-numbingly dry).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

http://www.redbirdproducts.com/Poop-Off.jpg


I do not know of any links or Books or Articles about Pigeon behavior or training for our conditions.

It is up to you and them, or them and you, to work out, somehow.

High perches or Roosts, depending on depth, can limit the then locations of poops occuring from perching/roosting positions.

Having easily washable surfaces...Towels or Paper Towels on some surfaces...etc., also help.

Being very careful no one electes to land on a passage Door top where a Leg or Legs or Toes could get harmed if someone closes the Door without seeing them...

Removing items the Birds would tend to knock over...


Feed and Water occuring only in specific areas, such as in a tray, on the floor, where small spills will be caught in the Tray.


Avoid any sources of 'fumes' as tend to occur from cleaning products, teflon pans, and so on.

Fresh outdoor Air, occasional direct out doors Sunshine in Sun Cages or the like.


Some learn their names and will come when called...others, are not interested to do so.

If one makes it interesting to come when called, probably those who had not been interested might become interested.

What specific behavior things were you interested in?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm just not familiar with pet birds overall, and like to have a 'feel' for what to possibly expect/to be prepared. I'd esp. like 'warning signs' that things aren't well so I can tend to it ASAP...

I am a bit concerned about Viktor(the tame one). Sometimes he sounds like he's congested, makes a noise when he breathes that sounds like purring/growling. When I brought this up to the vet, he said that he's probably aggravating his respitory system by preening/moulting. I don't think he's going through a molt, but he does obsessively preen/clean his feathers. Any thoughts?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

He could just be vocalizing, actually. Does he appear to have laboured breathing at all when he is making such noises ? How long do they last ? And, when he does it, does he appear to be either agitated or pacing or making what could be described as a "don't mess with DaddyBird" sorta display ?

I know you want something written to relate to, but here's a drive-by version of red flags regarding pigeons:

1) Listlessness/sleepiness/eyes closing a lot...staying in one spot.

2) Fluffed up feathers

3) Head and neck 'turtling' very often, as opposed to the usual outstretched position.

4) Wings droopy/wingtips regularly held below the level of the tailfeathers.

5) Not eating or drinking. Noticeable loss of weight.

6) Breathing becoming fast or laboured; open-mouth breathing.

7) Signs of mucous or yellowish dots or growths inside the mouth (this is Canker).

8) Sudden change in poops (consistency, etc).

All of those are the more typical signs of illness....

Good job on the feet, BTW ~ it is really amazing how even the most horrific-looking string injuries can actually heal and recover pretty well with proper treatment.


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

You may find this useful... 

http://www.parrotscanada.com/

Specifically the heading *"For the New Bird Owner"* on the left menu bar. Keep in mind that regardless of how optimistic you may be, they aren't going to mimic speech or eat their perch (bonus). However, the household poisons such as Teflon and plants are pertinent and you can even switch them to pellets if you choose. There is also a section on "Signs of a Sick Bird" that is pretty species generic.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

DanceBiscuit said:


> I'm just not familiar with pet birds overall, and like to have a 'feel' for what to possibly expect/to be prepared. I'd esp. like 'warning signs' that things aren't well so I can tend to it ASAP...


Natural Air is generally vastly better for them, than central heating or cooling of closed rooms as it tends to be in stale indoor conditions.

Synthetic Carpets are bad...synthetic materials are bad, off-gassing formeldahyde flake board subfloors are bad, etc.

Bad for people, bad for Birds.

Tap Water is bad...for being chlorinated and floridated, as well as that it is bad anyway.





> I am a bit concerned about Viktor(the tame one). Sometimes he sounds like he's congested, makes a noise when he breathes that sounds like purring/growling. When I brought this up to the vet, he said that he's probably aggravating his respitory system by preening/moulting. I don't think he's going through a molt, but he does obsessively preen/clean his feathers. Any thoughts?



Spigot him, and look at his Treachea...look also at the roof of his Mouth.


See if any damp white film is edging his Trachea, or if anything other than vivid clean light 'pink' is going on anywhere on there, roof or elsewhere.

Their own Preening should not bother them...

Indoor air can bother them...if it is stale and recirculating as is uaually the case.

Open Windows...Fresh Breezes coming through, fresh Air, no matter the Season...are best.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the links/info. Will copy info into a word doc. for personal reference.

I'm pretty lucky that my room is pigeon-safe from the getgo. Recently I've been craving a simpler living space, so there's no superfluous tipsy breakables around. My floor is also smooth wood, which makes poop cleanup easy and dust is less of an issue because of all the cleaning I do. I leave my window open a crack and feed the birds distilled water(those huge health food store gallons) with ACV in it. Now its just a matter of getting proper feed, which is an outing I'm planning for my next day off.

Is it possible during the warmer months to take Viktor outside? If he has a harness?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Cyreen said:


> Keep in mind that regardless of how optimistic you may be, they aren't going to mimic speech or eat their perch (bonus).


Not a worry, I'm fond of pigeon "croo"ing and wouldn't trade it for all the speech/noise mimicking in the world


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Spigot him, and look at his Treachea...look also at the roof of his Mouth.
> 
> 
> See if any damp white film is edging his Trachea, or if anything other than vivid clean light 'pink' is going on anywhere on there, roof or elsewhere.
> .


Everything looks pink and clear except for the sides of his trachea(I can't find good pigeon throat refs...) seem to have a bit of white on either side? Nothing looks gooey though. I will check again when I return from work, and see if I can get good pics.

If there's something of concern, I'll demand the vet sees him again and THOROUGHLY this time.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

DanceBiscuit said:


> Thank you everyone for the links/info. Will copy info into a word doc. for personal reference.
> 
> I'm pretty lucky that my room is pigeon-safe from the getgo. Recently I've been craving a simpler living space, so there's no superfluous tipsy breakables around. My floor is also smooth wood, which makes poop cleanup easy and dust is less of an issue because of all the cleaning I do. I leave my window open a crack and feed the birds distilled water(those huge health food store gallons) with ACV in it. Now its just a matter of getting proper feed, which is an outing I'm planning for my next day off.
> 
> Is it possible during the warmer months to take Viktor outside? If he has a harness?


DanceBiscuit, although not a huge issue in the very short term, distilled water is "empty" water and as a result can leach essential trace elements from the body. Bottled water is good, but just plain, high quality, spring sourced, bottled water would be preferred.

You doing a great job, and I'm sue you will have a wealth of knowledge on these guys before too long.

Karyn


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

DanceBiscuit said:


> Is it possible during the warmer months to take Viktor outside? If he has a harness?


I don't see why not - a larger Aviator ought to work for a pigeon and are readily available in pet stores and sized according to weight.

I age water for the fish, so another jug reserved for the birds with some ACV is nothing. It takes 24 hours for chlorine to dissipate.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi DanceBiscuit,


If you have any 'Purified Water to Go' places, you can bring empty Gallon Gugs and get them filled with very good purified Water, and use that for them and you.

As Dobato mentions, Distilled is not so good...but, any good sort of Bottled Drinking Water would be fine.

As Cyreen relays, you can also allow Tap Water to sit open for a while, and the Chlorine will evaporate...though unfortunately, the Floride and other pollutants will not evaporate.

'White' film or edging or the like inside the opening of the Pigeon's Trachea suggests some sort of upper Respiratory condition, but I can not say specifically what it would be.


These can clear up on their own with good diet and cood conditions...or, if they do not, then one would maybe elect to try some intentional measures.

I would be very surprised if any Vet would even notice something like that or find it meaningful even if they did.

If sufficient care and delicacy were employed, I suppose a tiny enough Swab could be used to touch the area, and, then be used to make a Culture, to see if a determination could be made as for what sort of Organism it is.

Phil
Lv


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## Cyreen (Jun 6, 2010)

If it's bacterial, wouldn't the ACV in the water help?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Cyreen said:


> If it's bacterial, wouldn't the ACV in the water help?



Hi Cyreen, 


Not for upper Respiratory, no...AVC-Water would not help.


For undesireable Organisms in the Crop or Proventriculus, "yes", it will help.



Phil
Lv


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

Water issues noted.

Today Trouper is limping a bit, looks like his left foot(with the one toe missing) is hurting. The swelling hasn't gone down, and I feel sharp bits when I press the area. I'm in the process of cleaning right now, so I will update with pictures in a bit.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

'Sharp Bits'?

Can you explain further?


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

It feels like there's a hard chunk in the foot, like a larger knuckle. I guess 'sharp' was the wrong word, its more of hard rounded feel, like a knuckle.
Here are a few pics of how it looks tonight. The stretched skin concerns me, I'm not sure if there's anything I can do:


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ooooooooooo...well, ouch, that one amputated Toe 'stub' does indeed appear swollen and probably tender.

Has this swelling increased from where it had been?

There are some small odd shaped little Bones in the middle there, in the 'pad', where, in effect, Birds walk upon their Wrists...so, just as we have, there are Wrist Bones from which the Fingers radiate,

We have far longer Fingers than we usually imagine, with half the length of our Fingers being covered in added Muscle and Skin, from the Wrist to half their length worth...

Pretty similar anyway...

I would consider to be applying a topical solution of some broad spectrum Antibiotics, dissolved in a little ( such as a Teaspoon say, of ) Water, to which a few Drops of 'DSMSO' have been added...applied with a Q-Tip Swab.

Warm Foot Baths...continued...also, and or prior to topical applications of the solution.


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## DanceBiscuit (Jun 12, 2010)

The swelling has always been the same, the only difference is the extra little "flap" of skin on the stub slowly died and I clipped the little bit off. 


what's 'DSMSO'?


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