# Urgent: Need Baytril equivalent.



## NumberNine

Ok, the situation is as follow: I rescued three birds during the last three weeks. I'm running low on Baytril and will run out by Saturday.

Is there a human equivalent to Baytril that I could use? So that I could go see my doctor and get a precription filled at the drugstore.

If so, could you provide me its name and what quantity is suitable compared to Baytril (.1cc per 66grams of bird weight).

I know you might think of many solutions to my problem, but unfortunately you do not have all the parameters and because I'm trying to remain discreet due to my activities, I cannot divulge any further information.

Thanks.

P.S. Brad (pigeonpal2002) told me that cipro is the human equivalent and I can see that when I do a search on the Net. But is it good enough? And what dosage do you recommend? Does anyone know?


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## TAWhatley

Yes, Cipro is the human equivalent to Baytril and my vet actually prefers Cipro for birds over Baytril. The dose is the same .. 15 mg/kg BID.

Terry


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## Pidgey

Well, according to the formulary there is a difference in the dosage. It depends on what you're doing with it. If you're going after the same things that you were with Enrofloxacin, then the dosage is 20 to 40 mg/kg BID (twice daily).

If you're going to use it in conjunction with aminoglycosides, then the dose falls to 15 to 20 mg/kg BID for 10 to 15 days.

Reference:

http://zcog.org/zcog frames/Avian Drugs/Avian Drugs.htm

NumberNine, the formulary that I sent you does show the basic dosages. If you go and talk a pharmacist out of some Cipro pills, they're probably going to be in the 250/500/750 mg steps but I don't know that for sure. Anyhow, you already know how to divide them up.

As to the pharmacology, it is reputed that there is no difference in the efficacy of the one vs. the other. I believe that statement is in the Antimicrobial Therapy chapter that I also sent you.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather

NumberNine said:


> Ok, the situation is as follow: I rescued three birds during the last three weeks. I'm running low on Baytril and will run out by Saturday.
> 
> *Is there a human equivalent to Baytril that I could use? So that I could go see my doctor and get a precription filled at the drugstore.*
> 
> 
> I know you might think of many solutions to my problem, but unfortunately you do not have all the parameters and because I'm trying to remain discreet due to my activities, I cannot divulge any further information.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> P.S. Brad (pigeonpal2002) told me that cipro is the human equivalent and I can see that when I do a search on the Net. But is it good enough? And what dosage do you recommend? Does anyone know?


NumberNine,
I can't imagine any 'reputable' medical doctor or pharmacist dispensing any amount of Cipro at will.  

Cindy  



Cindy


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## TAWhatley

And here's another link showing 5-20 mg/kg BID for pigeons (Cipro):

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/infectives2.htm

and this one showing 15 mg/kg (Baytril):

http://www.ahc.umn.edu/rar/umnuser/formulary.html#Enrofloxacin

Terry


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## Pidgey

Cindy,

What's really hard to believe is that they ever allowed Baytril to be used in such a widespread way in the veterinary world. Both drugs are flouroquinolones and some portion of the absorbed Enrofloxacin is metabolized into Ciprofloxacin in the liver. I'll send you a few pages describing some of the pharmacology. Anyhow, NumberNine has managed to sweet-talk his pharmacist out of 1 or 2 pills before so I guess it's worth a try.

Terry,

Quandary! Multiple Sources!  

I'll see if I can find something more official about it.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Hi Pidgey, all...


Should one then elect Cipro instead of the Baytril for our Birds?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Whitefeather

Pidgey said:


> Cindy,
> 
> What's really hard to believe is that they ever allowed Baytril to be used in such a widespread way in the veterinary world. Both drugs are flouroquinolones and some portion of the absorbed Enrofloxacin is metabolized into Ciprofloxacin in the liver. I'll send you a few pages describing some of the pharmacology. *Anyhow, NumberNine has managed to sweet-talk his pharmacist out of 1 or 2 pills before so I guess it's worth a try.*Pidgey


Pidgey,
Believe me, I'v been educated on Cipro.
After having a brain tumor removed, my son's father developed sepsis & went into septic shock not once, but twice, & was placed on Cipro each time. God Bless him, he recovered from each bout & lived 10 years, unfortunately suffering from one complication after another.

I won't get on my soap box, but any medical doctor or pharmacist that abuses any medication, by giving it at will, deserves to have their license revoked.  

Cindy


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## TAWhatley

pdpbison said:


> Hi Pidgey, all...
> 
> Should one then elect Cipro instead of the Baytril for our Birds?
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


Hi Phil,

No, not necessarily .. my vet just feels that Cipro is a bit easier on the birds .. he doesn't stock it in his office but gives me a script for it when needed (or when I haven't made the Tijuana "drug" run .. you can get Cipro in Mexico without a prescription but not Baytril .. for Baytril, you have to have to script in Mexico .. go figure ..).

Terry


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## feralpigeon

Hi NumberNine, 

Maybe not now, but in the future, you might find this link helpful:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11420&highlight=augmentin

fp


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## NumberNine

Interesting article re Baytril.

"Bayer's drug Baytril—a super-antibiotic virtually identical to Cipro that is fed to more than 128 million chickens each year—is so clearly responsible for hundreds of Cipro-resistant infections in humans that the Food and Drug Administration has begun the process of withdrawing its approval"

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0148,lerner,30287,1.html

P.S. Tomorrow I will pass in offensive mode and attempt to get it through various means. I'll keep you updated on my results.


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## Pidgey

Well, there you go, NumberNine,

And that's just the number for chickens. They also use it with hogs, cows and turkeys as far as feedlot animals go. And they use them both in other countries like they're going out of style. Besides Mexico, there's the Far East where you can go to the drugstore, buy them on your own recognizance and use them for a shortened period because you're starting to feel better. 

The scale of misuse is so incredibly huge that Cindy's correct sentiment, if rigidly and even fanatically adherred to here in the US, would still make no difference whatsoever in the big wide world. For that matter, even here the doctors (for humans) seem obliged to prescribe an antibiotic for prophylaxis when the lab indicates that you've just got a simple virus that's passing through. Even that practice should warrant some abatement methodology.

Anyhow, NumberNine, the flouroquinolones are considered to be some of the biggest guns we've got and you might think about using Keflex (Cephalexin; a cephalosporin) instead. You should discuss that one with your vet sometime and see if he or she will prescribe it instead. While it's not considered to be as big of a gun (I think), it often is a better one to use.

Pidgey


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## NumberNine

And here's the follow up...

http://www.cbgnetwork.org/1158.html

"Ending Battle With FDA, Bayer Withdraws Poultry Antibiotic"

All food is poison. It's just that some kill you faster than others. Where there is growth, there is decay. It's that simple.


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## NumberNine

Target acquired. Will update later.


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## Pidgey

I love it when you go ballistic.

Pidgey


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## upcd

*Augmentin ES-600*

How would we make doses for a pigeon? And is it any good on pigeons and what would it be used for?


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## NumberNine

I'm glad to report that human kindness isn't (totally) extinct. Yep, I got a rx for cipro. This is the third time I'm running out of drugs in 10 years. And if my vet wouldn't be on a 4 weeks vacation, I could have got my Baytril. 

I could have gone to another vet and get it there, but I find it insane to pay for a vet visit for the sake of obtaining Baytril. I try to keep my costs as low as possible, so when I have to spend $200+ for a specific bird, I never have to think twice about it. Moreover, I like efficiency and wasting money + my time + the time of the vet to obtain 66mg of Baytril doesn't make sense to me.

Regarding Baytril, apart from not using it on young birds, it should also not be used in combination with aluminium, magnesium and calcium (I don't remember if there are others, but I remember those 3 in particular). If you give vit/min supplement to the bird at the same time than Baytril, make sure those two are at least 6 hours apart. It seems that Baytril might cause infertility in some birds. To me that's a good thing, but if you are making money out of raising birds, then I guess it's not. I also heard that it can disrupt the molting process. 

Terry, thanks for the info and for the links. You definitely are a rare bird  

Pidgey, you ought to get the CPS (Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties). It has most information you care to know about (human) drugs. I have not yet printed the pages you sent me cause the laser printer needed a new cartridge. Will do it soon. Thanks for letting me know about Keflex, I'll look into it. 

Cindy, I'm glad you are not my mother! LOL!


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## Whitefeather

NumberNine said:


> Cindy, I'm glad you are not my mother! LOL!


Amen to that!  

Cindy


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## TAWhatley

upcd said:


> How would we make doses for a pigeon? And is it any good on pigeons and what would it be used for?


As to dosage, we would first need to know what strength of the medicine is that you have. Augmentin is also known as Clavamox here in the US and by another name in the UK .. Synulox, I believe.

Usually one would dissolve tablets or the contents of capsules in sterile water and then calculate the dosage based on the strength of the solution. 

I'm happy to help with the calculations but need to know what we are starting with. 

If you search here on Pigeon-Talk you will find an excellent post from Nooti (Helen) about commonly used medications for pigeons and the usage and dosage. I think it is in the Pigeon Daily, Resources section.

Clavamox is an excellent drug for cat/dog/hawk wounds and is also often used in place of Baytril for young pigeons as it is believed to be easier on their delicate little systems and structures.

Terry


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## NumberNine

I was talking with a friend last night. When I told him that since I was giving Baytril to the bird, I had naturally removed the grit because of the calcium, he told me that I was most likely wrong. 

I verified in one of my medical books and here's a tiny portion of what it says regarding cipro (cipro ~= Baytril):

"Antacids containing aluminium or magnesium hydroxide have been shown to reduce the absorption of ciprofloxacin. Concurrent administration with these agents should be avoided"

"Administration of sucralfate prior to ciprofloxacin resulted in a 30% reduction in absorption of ciprofloxacin. Concurrent administration with ciprofloxacin should be avoided"

"Oral ferrous sulfate at therapeutic doses decreases the bio-availability of oral ciprofloxacin, therefore concomitant therapy is not advised"

"The use of calcium supplement reduces the absorption of ciprofloxacin; therefore, concomitant therapy is not advised"


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## Pidgey

NumberNine,

We'd had a similar discussion about this issue in the past where I'd said the same thing but it was based on what I'd heard and not thoroughly researched. The thing that got brought up in the thread about Pierpont...:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

...was that not all grits are created equal when it comes to minerals. Some, I guess, are only for grinding and don't contribute in the calcium/magnesium/zinc department. So, I guess that's what I was trying to say earlier in that email but didn't get filled out too well. I was a bit foggy on it at the time but that describes most of my waking hours anymore. Sorry. You done good, though! We promise not to calcify the Baytril Birds no more!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison

Makes sense...

The Grits made of crushed Granite would be fine, or generaly any seived to size small rocks, washed and bleached and rinsed well...'sand'...

The Crushed Oyster Shell, or ( one I got a big bag of recently) crushed Sea Shells and tiny whole Shells, of course being of Calcium Carbonate composition, would be ones to avoid while a Bird is on these drugs...

And maybe withold their 'Tums' also...for the time being...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon

I keep this on hand from Globals:

THYSSEN STOMACH GRAVEL

Sharp stomach gravel is only used as a grind stone and must be available to the pigeons. As birds do not have any teeth, their gizzard does the job of softening the food and slowly grinding the food by expanding and contracting movements. For that reason the irregular shaped stomach gravel should be given on a regular basis.
ORDER# DESCRIPTION PRICE 
1040-018 2 Lbs........................................................... $1.50


fp


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## NumberNine

Pidgey,

I searched my brain all afternoon trying to remember where I had read that Baytril and calcium wasn't a good mix. It's that avian vet I saw in 1996! The first time I saw her, she gave me Baytril and told me to make sure the bird was not getting calcium. She also mentionned others, but I could only guess aluminium and magnesium. 

Actually, it's worst than that, I just did a Google search and found this,

http://www.drugs.com/Cipro/

"Do not take antacids that contain calcium, magnesium, or aluminum (e.g., Tums or Rolaids); the ulcer medicine sucralfate (Carafate); or vitamin or mineral supplements that contain calcium, iron or zinc for a minimum of 6 hours before or 2 hours after a dose of ciprofloxacin. Taking antacids, sucralfate, or vitamin or mineral supplements too close to a dose of ciprofloxacin can greatly decrease the effects of the antibiotic."


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