# Pigeon with very bad injury at the beak



## Vulturescu

I have a sick pigeon trichomoniasis who have been cured after treatment with antibiotics. has affected the left side of the beak tip to eye. everything was ok and the bird eat alone again until crust that has formed there around the beak fell . crust instead of a hole and stuck a piece missing from bottom of the beak. can not eat one now and I have to hand feed. someone has happened to a case like mine? the absence of beak will grow beak? I do not know what to do with my bird because i don't want to make her suffer if is not any chance of cure.
thank you!


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## Skyeking

Hello and Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

We do have several members that have birds with either upper or lower beak missing. Their birds have adapted and have learned to eat with the handicap. 

Hopefully they will respond soon, but it is not hopeless.


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## Dobato

Vulturescu, thanks for posting the photo.

What you are describing that has happened and now how the bird looks if what sometimes happens after a trichomoniasis infection. Actually, things with the mouth, beak and eye area do not look too bad really and I can assure you many times look much worse, after a bad trich infection is cured and the bird starts to heal.

Over the next weeks his injury should start to heal in a way that will return a more normal look to the area, but it will never look as it did before the infection happened. Although I can not tell from the angle the photo was taken if this has started, but there is a good chance his beak may start to scissor as a result of damage to the mandible. This is where the upper and lower beak start to cross one another instead of being in-line, so be prepared for this.

Over time he will learn to compensate for whatever injury his beak has suffered and should be able to self maintain just fine. For now provide his food in a deeper dish, 1"-2" deep dish, and filled right up to the top, same with water for him and see how he does with this. If you feel during his learn process he is not getting enough food and you want to supplement him, please do this late at night only, you can give him a good amount of food then, so he gets up with an empty crop. This way through the day he will have hunger present which will help him learn faster. If you feed him in the morning or through the day, this will diminish his hunger and cause him to be less interested in him trying to get some food into himself on his own, sometimes we have to gently nudge them to do things that are in their best interest.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

*Thank you!!!!*

Thank you so much for answers!!!!
I will add another photo where you can see better that it is impossible to eat. I already tried to starve him and eat the deep dish but it is imopsibil. For me is not a problem to feed him by hand but te bird I think is in pain and many people told me that the beak will not heal . What I want to know is that injury will start to heal and the pigeon can eat again alone. I really want to save this bird.


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## Skyeking

The beak does look like it is scissoring.

Perhaps it is painfull for him to try to eat on his own right now, but time will heal and continue to encourage him to eat, and meanwhile feed him by hand. Please re-read Karyn's excellent advice.


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## Feefo

We have a couple of pigeons with pretty bad beak problems. It takes them a good while to learn how to eat by themselves, mine like to stand in a bucket of food when they eat.

I will try to catch a photo later, but as you will see from *this link* , nearly 4 years ago the options open to Toffee were euthanasia, a beak repair or gavage feeding for the rest of his life: adapting to his disability was the option that he ended up choosing!


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## Dobato

Vulturescu, OK so the beak has already scissored as I thought it might and to a pretty good degree, this is a result of part of the mandible being destroyed on one side.

This bird can be helped, but it will take time and patience. We will have to do the best we can to "train" his beak back into a little better alignment, but you must know up front it will never be normal again and always be scissored. I think a key point for me is that you said he could eat on his own until the "crust" fell off, meaning his jaw does have range of motion to eat, but some support was lost, as this necrotized area was acting as a crutch, which has been lost, so there is still range present, but he has to learn to compensate for the support lost on the one side, plus the scissoring now makes things much harder for him.

What I want you to do for the next two days is this get some pure Vitamin E, you can buy a bottle of capsules at any health food store and pick up a tube of very highly moisturizing hand cream. Three to four times a day I want you to do this, coat the damaged side of the beak and mouth only with the vitamin E and massage it in, do this a few times and massage the area for a few minutes as well, you can be a little firm with the massage as we are trying to soften up the scar tissue, make sure head/beak area is well supported when doing this. Then wait 10 minutes then go over this area with the moisturizing cream. That's it for two days, during this time you can feed him when you like, not just at night as I suggested before.

Vulturescu, what has happened to the damaged area is that scar tissue has formed when healing. One of the things scar tissue likes to do is contract, pull in and make things tight, and we have to try and undo some of this if we can. So now on the third day we are going to start to train his beak. The first thing is to apply the vitamin E and cream as you have been doing and wait an hour. After an hour I want you to wrap him in a towel so only his head is showing and do this. Apply a light coating of cream again to the damaged area, then gently hold/control his head with one hand, with your other hand I want you to place your thumb firmly on one side of his damaged beak, equally covering both upper and lower beak area on the good side with your thumb, and slide your forefinger over the damaged area of the lower beak only and we want to slide this finger along and start to very gently pull/stretch his beak back into alignment. You should very quickly get a feel for this in what we are trying to do. 

Some important points, first, when you stretch/pull on his lower beak make sure your thumb is firmly against the good side of his beak/mouth area for support, this is important so we don't strain or damage his good side. Second start very, very gently with this to you get a "feel" how everything has set up in the area, do not be aggressive at all, in any way, with this. Third, do not try and straighten his beak right out, as you will hurt or further damage him if you do, you want to do this in degrees over a longer period of time. Fourth, as you stretch/pull his lower beak toward proper alignment, I want you to hold his lower beak to the point you are stretching to for first 5, then 10, then 15, then 20, then 30 seconds at a time, then release the tension. This will be over a period of many weeks, so the first week 5 seconds hold then release -then repeat, the second week 10 and so on. You will basically be doing massage, stretch and hold to his lower beak. You want to do 3-4 of these sessions for 5-10 minutes a day with him.

With his food, he has a learning curve he has to go though and we have to help him with this. Right now because of the amount of scissoring present he cannot pick up food, especially hard food like a pigeon mix. I want you to try this, get 1 cup of corn meal, two eggs, 1/4 cup of oil and water to form a thick batter, mix and bake this in a 300 degree oven until it sets up in a bread pan. When cooked cut this up into 1/4 squares and try this with him, this will be highly nutritious and soft, yet firm enough to grip, for him to try and eat.

This is not going to be quick, it is going to take months, you will be doing this for weeks and you may not feel you see any real changes happening, so do not get frustrated , stop or give up, the changes are so subtle and small it will take many weeks and perhaps even comparing before and after photos to see the changes. However, if we could get a 50% correction in the degree of scissoring present, I think we will have done good and with less scissoring present there is not reason he will not eventually learn to self feed once more.

So with him you are going to massage, stretch hold then release -repeat, corn meal squares in a deep dish, regular food in a deep dish, full to the top, beside the corn meal squares dish and of course water. Feed at night as you feel is needed and be patient this is going to take quite a bit of time.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

*many, many thanks!!!*

O.k. I will try to do everyting you write me but it will be very hard and difficult for the pigeon because it is a half-wild pigeon. This pigeon like many other pigeons use to eat at my window and I know her (because it is a female)a few years. When I saw she was sick I went to the Veterinary and I treat her and everything was ok until the crust around the beak fall down. Absolutely I will do my best for her, but I do not want to make her suffer because is not free to fly.
Thank you for everything and I will tell you how it is going.
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am so happy that you are able to help this bird, and are willing to spend the time, and money to do so. 

Dana, now that you have described her situation better, there is one more important thing. This sweet bird will almost certainly not be able to be released back to the wild again. I say almost, because you describe the bird as "half wild" if by half wild you mean you know this bird for sometime and she comes every day to feed from you, so she could be assured of food everyday from you doing this to live on, once she is self feeding again, there could be a chance for her since she would not have to worry about food, but that decision if far off. 

Also, keep an eye on her upper beak, as sometimes when they get this kind of damage to their beak area the upper beak has a tendency to want to overgrow and "hook" down and if this happens the beak will need to be filed back. Please let us know if this happens.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

*Dear Karyn,*

Yes I know this bird for four years. She and her mate. Every day this pigeons come to my window to eat and even eat from my hand. In this way I could get her. For me it is important to know that are chances to be able to eat again. 
Right now I am done with what you said to do with vitamin E and light cream massage and is ok.
Thank you so much for your help!
I am sorry if my english is not very good!
Talk tomorrow because now it is 10 pm to me and have to shut down the computer.
Thank you again!
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, your English is perfectly fine. Glad to hear you got things started for her right away. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask them.

Again, good luck with her,

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi Vulturescu,



Your Pigeon may be able to eat, or to quite soon adapt their style to eat, with small whole Seeds put into a low Coffee Cup, so it is wide and deep and full of Seeds.

You may need to guide and patiently work with them to make the transition.


This allows them to get their Beak deeply into the Seeds, and, to eat in a manner which is not 'pecking', but, more like 'gobbling'.

In frustration, they may tend to do wide fast sweeping Pecking motions, merely scattering Seeds, and getting nothing...so, you may need to literelly guide their Head for their Beak to be 'in' the Seeds, and work with them for them to realize the new manner of eating they need to adopt.



As Babys, all Pigeons used to 'gobble' their Food from their parent's Throats.

Some, as adults, will remember this, and, use the method again, if having had a Beak injury or loss.

Others, require that one work with them and guide and steady them in ways which will promote the discovery to happen for them.


I think the exercises mentioned by Dobato are very good.


If the lower Beak is 'rubbery' now, and easily bent, it will get hard and rigid over time, and, ideally, you would want to have been working with it gently and often, in order for it to harden and become rigid again in the correct alignment and position instead of ending up as it is now.

The eroded Bone inside of the lower Mandible which is occasioning the pulling to one side like that, the Bone will likely fill in over time...I am pretty confident that it will...so, bear this in mind.


Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


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## Vulturescu

Hello, thank you to everyone for support.
I try to do everything I have advised and I hope to be ok.For the moment I will do what Karyn told me for 2 days I will massage the beak with vitamin E and after I start to make exercises. Keep in touch if I need more tips. And I like what you told me and you think, Phil, aboute the bone will likely fill in over time....I hope it will be ok.
Thank you again!

Dana


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## pdpbison

One of mine...their 'Rubber' Beak took almost two years to get rigid...I did not appreciate well enough, the exercises I should have been doing for him.

Various Vets I had consulted, all said the Beak would never become rigid, the Bone would never fill in...so, I was complaiscent, time passed, even though I originally thought to do as I have now suggested you do - manage or move the Beak often to be aligned, so that over time, just doing it now and then, as it does regain rigidity, it may do so in a practical alignment, rather than as a 'Scissor'.


My lesson has been learned painfully, for not following my instinct, and instead, listening to 'experts'.


This is always good to bear in mind - listen to Experts, and then respect your own intuitions or instinsts also, especially if both may be done with no danger or harm to the Bird.


Here are some images which I imagine will be familiar to you, showing of one of my own 'Twizzler Beak' ones early in his recovery -


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/july-3rd-2007---can/



Ohhh, I never did follow up with his Album, but, all went well, he Lived, recovered, and is well and happy.


I will make an image of him as he is now, and post it.


He is a very sweet and happy Bird, and likes what we call "BIG HUGS"...

Otherwise, unless it is for 'BIG HUGS' he insists not to be held...Lol...


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## Vulturescu

Phil, it is help me so much that we met a person who has just happened with the pigeon. Gives me hope that in time will improve. Here where I am are not very skilled surgeons in birds. 
I am in Bucharest, Romania, and I contacted various pigeon veterinarians in the world via e-mail. Everyone told me it will not grow anything in that place and would cicatrize so.They told me that the better way for bird to not suffer is euthanasia, but I do not like this ideea. First I have to fight for this sweet bird and give her another change for life. 
I saw your pictures( and I want to thank you ) and see that your pigeon is covered by tissue site near the beak. If you do a recent photo is very good for me. I really hope so good and I think I managed to help this bird.

Thank you so much for your help Phil!


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## pdpbison

Will do...I will make some present time images and add them to his Album.



I have had quite a few Pigeons with terrible Mouth and Throat and Esophagul 'Canker' inflammations and necrosis...weeping holes in their Necks...aweful...

I worked out various procedures for rehydrating them safely with thin soft Silicone Catheter 'Tubes' wriggled down through and past or through the debris, for getting Liquids/electrolytes into their Crop, since usually they are terribly dehydrated and have not been able to eat or drink in many days....everything stopped up, blocked.

Soon followed by Medicines and thin Liquid Foods.



Anyway...they take work!


Most I have been able to save...and of those, only a very few ended up with a Beak issue which was a handicap. Most ended up so fine you would never know they had once had terrible infections of the Mouth and Throat. Some lost merely some slight aspects of the Beak edges only.


One lost their entire Beak, top and Bottom...it was falling off when I first saw them, and got them rounded up...but Oye, but once all was healed, they learned to eat by themselves by pressing their Mouth against the Seeds, and getting one Seed at a time pressed in to their more or less 'mouth', where, they were able to grip it with their Tongue-Barbs, and pull it in.


A Pigeon with no Beak at all, can be oddly beautiful, and she was...somehow it was so tidy and neat, and perfect, she looked beautiful in her way...a lovely face...


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## Vulturescu

I am sorry to hear that there may be problems really serious! It is so sad!
Today I went to the veterinary to see the pigeon and gave me vitamins like Vit.B, D3 and Calcium vit.C. He told me to give him every day maby that can help. Do you think the pigeon suffering because for a long period of time is so trapped? He can not fly in my house because hit the glass window and made his other wounds. I wold like to keep him for the rest of her life in the house with me but I do not want to make him suffer because he can not fly free.
He is not familiar with the people and often struggle to escape into my hand. I hate to know that suffering. 
Birds that you talk that you've treated were wild?

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, many people people who first come here are usually in a situation like yours, they have a wild bird that needs help, they want to help and they need information and instructions how to give these birds the help they need to get them well once more.

Often these birds get well enough again to be released back to the wild where they came from. Then sometimes, although they get well again, some of these birds have suffered injuries to their wings, legs, mouth or eyes, so although we heal the injury itself, their body is left in less than whole condition and this makes returning them to the wild not possible, as they would surely die if this was done. So many of these people end up keeping these birds as their pets, as pigeons are very adaptable and make wonderful company as a pet for these people and their families. She will not suffer if she has to live with you.

With your bird, she is well on her way its seems to healing and there is no reason she could not live a happy and contented life with you, if she where not able to go to the wild again. You have the advantage, as you mention, that you have known her for a long time, she even comes and feeds from your hand, so this will makes things much easier for you, if she needed to stay with you.

There are many people here with what were once wild birds who are now cherished pets, perhaps some of them will share some of their stories, or a link to their story with you.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

*Hi*

It would be great if the pigeon would adapt and like to live with me. Now it is very stressful and scary when he see me and I need to keep in a box. 
At the same time he was under treatment I found a baby pigeon who has wing hurt pretty bad. He fell from the nest and was bitten by a cat. He is at my house right now since two weeks ago. So I have two pigeon right now !The wounds became infected and I went with him to the Veterinary and after treatment with antibiotics everything is ok now.Two days ago he learned to eat alone and I do flying lessons with him. 
I think he definitely will come back to me because she is very fond of me. When are baby the pigeons attached are much faster by people and they do not suffer as an adult bird.
I will post a picture with him or her and I will take tomorrow a new pictures because now is change, is much bigger and beautiful. I don't know if it is a female or a mascul. Did you know?
This is me, a big heart!!!

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu, it's very hard to tell the sex of a pigeon until much later in life, even then experts get it wrong sometimes, unless they do certain things, like lay an egg or through mating behavior, so don't worry about that now.

With this baby, it's very important that you socialize him with other pigeons before, (I will call this bird a he for now) he learns to fly. With pigeons there is a short period of time, once they start eating on their own, exercising their wings learning to fly, and then really being able to fly. During this short period of time it would be very, very good for this bird, if you could put some seeds down in front of you home, for the adult pigeons to come and feed and then put this little guy in with them, while they are feeding, but supervise him, don't leave him at anytime, he looks ready to start right now. This way he will learn flock behavior and feel comfortable being among other pigeons and feeding when his time comes to leave. If you could do this twice a day, always test him each day inside to make sure he can't fly yet, and stop putting him in with the other birds when he can fly, it would be good, test him the first time and everytime. Also good would be if you could make a sudden noise a few times to scatter the flock, so he sees how they react together to danger.

With your other bird. Vulturescu, since she is going to be with you quite some time, at least until a final decision can be made for her, it would be really good if you could find her something better to stay in, like a larger cage, so she gets light and can see whats going on around her through the day. Until you get the cage, cut some 1" strips out of the box you have her in at her eye level so she can look out and watch things and let more light into her box.

That's it for now, and yes, you have a big heart,

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Vulturescu said:


> I am sorry to hear that there may be problems really serious! It is so sad!





Just so I can feel sure you understood me -


I help wild Birds...and, with them, by the time I may catch them find them, or their presenting themselves to me, sometimes their illness of injury is quite advanced.


Pigeons or Doves can have many forms of Canker, or Trichomonal infections, as I assume yours had, and, which mine, in the images had.


These can cause terrible damage to their Beaks, Mouths, Throats, Necks, and down and inside from there also, where we can not see.




> Today I went to the veterinary to see the pigeon and gave me vitamins like Vit.B, D3 and Calcium vit.C. He told me to give him every day maby that can help.




Those sound good...


Good Seeds, good Nutrition, good Water...


Do you have raw Apple Cider Vinegar where you live?





> Do you think the pigeon suffering because for a long period of time is so trapped? He can not fly in my house because hit the glass window and made his other wounds. I wold like to keep him for the rest of her life in the house with me but I do not want to make him suffer because he can not fly free.
> He is not familiar with the people and often struggle to escape into my hand. I hate to know that suffering.




There may be a problem then.


If you are the Head of the House, you can make the 'rules', and then problems can be solved.


If not...then not...


Your Pigeon is not release-able, of course.


But, he will need room to fly indoors, safely...Rice Paper glued to Window Glass, or Lattice placed over it, freedoms of movement, direct Sunshine now and then in a cage outside on a Table, and, ideally, the companship of other Pigeons.

He also needs to be trusting to the person who is for now or always, going to be taking care of him, feeding him, and so on, so there is not so much struggle or evasion from him.



> Birds that you talk that you've treated were wild?
> 
> Dana



Yes...


Wild Birds...and, for them to be co-operative, for Wild Pigeons to feel understood, respected, safe with a person...the person has to do things in terms the of the Pigeon's world, Language, sensitivities, paralinguistics, talking with them literally eye to eye, them at one's eye level....for the Pigeon to be a willing and co-operative agent in the attentions his recovery needs.


This is probably not easy to learn quickly, if it is ever learned at all.


Do things slowly...keep hands "low" and do not move arms when around him...always do everything slowly, walk slow...everything slow. Talk with him, have his attention, and explain yourself in detail...talk slow, intentional, but you must have his attention...if he is not looking you in the eye, you do not have his attention, and he is not listening, not interested, is anxuous or wishing to escape and waiting his chance.


This is what I do.

I have to set broken bones, inspect evaluate wounds, clean wounds, on and on...I need them to co-operate and be still so I can do things.


I have to have their attention, and then we talk...I explain myself, my reason, my motives, my intentions, I show them the tools or insturments, on and on.


They are very intelligent, sensitve, emotionally sensitive, highly attuned to small things...they are Birds, their survival depends on all this.

We have to appeal to these qualities for their co-operation, their tolerance of our interfering with them, to save or care for them.


How are you feeding him?


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## Vulturescu

*Hello everyone!*

First thank you so much Karyn for your good advices with the baby pigeon...I will try to do the my best for the baby. 

Phil, now I feed him by my hand because he can not eat alone. Yes here I have Apple Cider Vinegar.
Inside the house I can not leave him free because I have a house with many places that could fall and I could not catch him. The only safe but may be surrounded by glass is the balcony but pigeon would try to escape by windows. And then it would hurt by the the windows. When he hear other birds and pigeons making more noise and bustle gets very nervous and just wants to escape. Just I feed him and I would have to accommodate with me because I try to send him all my love and kiss him on the head always easy. But I do not know how much he can understand and will adjust to these conditions. Yet I do not like to see how is suffering and see that just wants to escape. The only place to stay calm and not agitated is a box that should cover it because if he see the light start to struggle and can hurt. It is very difficult for him and it breaks my heart this situation!
Maybe if I let him go if he were hungry would turn to me to feed it would be the best solution. But I am not sure if he let me catch him again. Maybe he should be hungry and let me feed him. I do not know who may be the best solution for him. Or try searching one person who grows and loves pigeons and pigeon are furnished accommodations. I really do not know what to do! The big problem is that I will go over one month in Italy for four weeks and I still be looking for someone to help me with the pigeon.
I will post a picture with the place where I use to feed the pigeon and you can see in the middle of the birds it is my hurt pigeon....it is a pictures I make 2 years ago at my window. Do you think that if I will let him be free the pigeon will came back to me and will let me feed him?


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## pdpbison

Hi Vulturescue,


I had not seen your other image post earlier.


Lovely Youngster.


As Dobato wisely reminds, you should bring the Youngster before they can fly, for them to peck and socialize with Wild Adults...set Seeds on the Ground for the Wild Pigeons, set your 'Baby' there for her to learn to be with her kind...watch over her feom say three Metres distance, she will know you arew there and be comforted if she is nervious...she needs their insibile modes of awareness to learn...she can not get this from a person. You need to do this five or six times, fifteen Minutes or more each time.

Once she is starting to fly, cease this exercise...wait a Month, six weeks, during which time she must be allowed to fly indoors, the bigger the Rooms the better...she will need to build strong Muscle...no Cages or Boxes...then you may release her by repeating the sojurn, set her among the Wild Adults you are feeding on the ground like before...she will eat with them, and later, follow their single younger members to their Night Roost, she will know what to do then, and continue to learn from them...they will accept her, she will accpept them, your Job is then 'done'...she has her Life then to follow.




Your Beak injury Pigeon - No, he must not be released, he would not return...he would go back to his old places, and, starve to death trying desperately to peck and eat.


He must be cared for by a loving person, who understands his condition and will work with him...provide for him...he needs room to fly indoors...to be healthy.



Here is the link to the Album of the Pigeon I have I had referenced earlier...I added two images this evening.


He would not hold still for an image to be made!



He is a happy Bird, full of Life and VERY active.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/july-3rd-2007---can/


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## pdpbison

Like this -


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/socialize-your-peeper-to-their-wild-kin-44984.html


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## Vulturescu

I see that your pigeon is not at all the bottom of the beak. Manages to eat alone? Little poor is even worse than my pigeon. Your pigeon lives with you in your home or is free to flying outside and returning to you?
I will have to think witch is the best I can do for the pigeon can de happy.
Thank you for the pictures, really help me! 
And thank you for all good tips! Are some wonderful people!

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu, as Phil has said, no you can not realease this to the wild and hope she comes back each day for you to catch her and feed her, she will certainly die if you did this.

To help her inside, do you think you can get a piece of widow screen 14"x14", this could be cut out from an old screen or you can buy a small piece from a hardware store. With the box you keep her in make sure it is a larger box, say 24"x20"x16", if you have to find her a new one that is larger, do so. At the front of the box, 1" up from the bottom, cut a square hole 12"x12" and now tape the piece of screen you have over this opening, so she has a "window" to look out of. If you could place this box on a table beside a window so she could look out and watch everything that is going on in the spaces she knows, I think she will help settle her down, it may take a few days, but with her being able to "watch" things it will make her much happier. If you could put a regular building brick in front of the window inside the box, as a perch for her to sit on, I think she would like this, a little further back, along the side, have her two feed dishes and water dish set out for her. As I mentioned before, pigeons are very adaptable, doing this will help her adapt, they like to watch, to be able to see things, being able to do this I think will help her.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Vulturescu said:


> I see that your pigeon is not at all the bottom of the beak. Manages to eat alone?




No...this one does not eat alone...I wish they did! I have to feed them every day.

Some learn to eat alone, ( most learn to eat alone ) some may be guided to learn and may take time to learn, others do not learn.


Thankfully, some of the others I have, who have old damaged Beaks, did learn, so they feed themselves.




> Little poor is even worse than my pigeon. Your pigeon lives with you in your home or is free to flying outside and returning to you?



Lives with me and other Pigeons in most of my home, which I have turned over to them, for them to have room and a place to live.


I would never let this one ( or any other able to fly well non-release-able ) outside.

There have been times this one got out by accident, and, immediately he went to be with the Wild Pigeons, trying to eat with them, but, he can not eat with the Beak he has.

I was able to get him back, but with difficulty.

If he had flown off, where I could not find him or woo him back, he would have starved to death.

Even if they love us, and have known us for years, their deeper interest and inspiration, if able to be exercised, will be to fly away and join other Wild Pigeons.


Pigeons with these kinds of Beak problems, must not be let outside.



They will tend to go immediately to join other Wild Pigeons, and, one might not get them back.




> I will have to think witch is the best I can do for the pigeon can de happy.
> Thank you for the pictures, really help me!
> And thank you for all good tips! Are some wonderful people!
> 
> Dana



These kinds of Beaks can change over time, and get worse.


Even if a Beak injury Pigeon learns to eat by themselves, this is no guarentee their Beak will permit it, as years go by.

Release could condemn them to a sad end over time.


Such Pigeons should live with People who will Love them and care for them and provide a Home for them with pleasing amenities if possible.



Done correctly, the Pigeon will be happy, have Pigeon friends among other non-release-ables one has, and be healthy and able to fly indoores all they like...the larger the Rooms for them, the better.


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## Vulturescu

Thanks a lot guys!!! 
I understand that is no chance to release her and she is not coming back to me anymore. 
I thought the pigeon understood that I can give him food and will come back to me. Not in any case I will not release her because are not coming back and I don't want to die. I will try to do what you say Karyn with box and window and I'll think how I can adapt my house for the pigeon.
It is very complicated but I love so much this birds that I have to do the best for them.
Thank you again for everything!


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## Pigeonlove

*Just an idea*

I too have a pigeon with no bottom beak, only a bottom mouth. His tongue used to hang out the side of his mouth. Eventually the end of his tongue dried up and fell off. BUT, he eats from a deep dish and drinks on his own. He has raised 3 babies with his mate, and is doing just fine!! One concern I have, though...and would maybe like some input from others...since you feed and water the flock, maybe it would be a good idea to treat the whole flock for canker. Since you have them at your window, it would be easy to treat all of them at the same time through flock treatment.I really hope your little girl does well, good luck.


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## pdpbison

It is not practical to try and treat a Wild or Feral Flock for Illnesses.


They would drink in other places also, and, would have no way to be getting the proper dose, and, too light a dose, could even cause Healthy Birds who merely have a normal background Flora or Fauna, to then have the balance disturbed by low doses of Medicines, to where they would become ill from the medicines only killing off the weaker Organisms, thus 'breeding' a stronger or resistent strain, and inviting a pathological condition.


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## Pigeonlove

Sorry--it was just a thought. Trying to help.


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## Jay3

You can treat the seed. They will eat it. Not like putting it in the water. I know people have done that.


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## pdpbison

Jay3 said:


> You can treat the seed. They will eat it. Not like putting it in the water. I know people have done that.



I do not think this would help.

Sick Pigeons who would need the medication would not eat the 'treated' Seeds at all, or, if still able to eat, would not eat very many...

Healthy Pigeons who do not need the medcation, would eat the 'treated' Seeds


Mildly sick Pigeons would eat the 'treated' Seeds, and get entirely unpredictable doses, where, underdoses may well only permit the stronger Organisms of the Illness to proliferate in their Bodys, where they would then reflux into water all of them drink out of in various locations, causing healthy others then to get sick with it, and for a 'Super Strain' to be bred, and, to spread, sicking others who would not have otherwise got ill...


Trying to treat a feral Flock for Canker, especially if only some few even have it at all, would more likely make things much worse.


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## rfboyer

In an earlier post, Dana mentioned that this pigeon has a mate. Is it possible that she's anxious on account of being separated from her mate? Would it make the transition to indoor life easier if the mate could be brought inside too?


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## Vulturescu

*Hello!*

Today I had a busy day and I left a little time alone my little bird. Everything is fine with the pigeon. I am working with sick pigeon the exercises proposed by Karyn and I hope soon to begin to eat alone. Pigeonlove says it has a pigeon with the same tipe of problem and it is ok now. That really gives me hope that my pigeon will eat agin alone. I will post some new pictures with my two beautiful birds.
I wish you a good day to all!


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## Vulturescu

Yes Robin is likely to be agitated because of this mate is not with her. The name oh his mate is Vulturescu. Vulturescu always sit at my window because I think he understands that his lovely girl is in my house. I guess she feels the same that her love mate is there at my window. Yesterday she was very agitated. I could not feed well because of that one.
And if I thought is better catch him Vulturescu and put it beside her. But Idon't know if it is a good idea. Maybe he should suffer like her. I do not want to bother two souls. I will post a picture with Vulturescu (her mate) witch is waiting on my window everyday. It is very beautiful pigeon!
Thank you all for help!

Dana


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## spirit wings

he looks like a domestic pigeon... pretty bird! love his wattle.


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## Dobato

Dana, he certainly is a very handsome fellow. Remember, very, very slow and easy with the beak, we don't wan't to make things worse. When stretching, we want the pulling force to be centered mainly at the scar tissue at the corner mouth area (on the bad side) and a little back and a little up from this area, not anywhere along the thinner part of the beak itself at all.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Can you open the Window? And, with your Beak injury Bird in a Cage, on a Table Top...allow him to visit her that way?


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## Vulturescu

*Hi*

Ok Karyn I understand....I will make the exercises just what you tell me. 
Immediately after I finish the exercises the beak looks very good but after a while returns to the same form before. In any case I think these exercises help a lot. When the pigeon can eat alone? I should starve her for forced to eat?

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok Karyn I understand....I will make the exercises just what you tell me.
> Immediately after I finish the exercises the beak looks very good but after a while returns to the same form before. In any case I think these exercises help a lot. When the pigeon can eat alone? I should starve her for forced to eat?Dana


Dana, as you do these exercises a few times a day, over time, (remember I told you to be patient, this will take many weeks to slowly move the beak back into a better alignment) the changes you see will become permanent, slow and easy, don't rush at all. We are slowly stretching out the contracting scar tissue and allowing new support to form, this will take time.

No, do not starve the bird right now, do as I said earlier, feed her a good amount each night and make sure she has her full food dishes and water available to her all day long. If you have a kitchen scale I would like to monitor her weight for a while if possible, take her weight first thing in the morning and let us know what it is.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok I understand. I am sorry but I don't have a kitchen scale. I use to feed her one time in the morning and one time in the evening.
And the baby pigeon I can tell you that is starting to be very aggressive with the adult pigeon and I think is jealous because of her. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, OK, see if anyone you know has a scale you could borrow.

Feed them together in the morning, like in the photos, but with Robin, don't feed her yourself (if you do break down and feed her a bit, make sure it's just a little)make a dish available for her, but her food dish will need to be much deeper than the white on in the photo, twice as deep (4-6mm) and full to the brim to help her be able to even try and eat right now. At night feed them again together, but you can now feed Robin lots at this time. It's good for the baby to feed with Robin, it will teach him about being a pigeon and how to be assertive, these things he needs to know for the wild. Also, Dana, the larger and white stripped sunflower seeds should be taken out of the food you feed them, these are not good to feed pigeons.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, but the black sunflower seed are good? The vet give me this seeds that you say are not good for the pigeon. I did not know that are not good for the pigeon.
If I feed the pigeons together they start to fight, the baby pigeon start the fight and then became both nervous. In any case I will try.... 

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I understand, but the black sunflower seed are good? The vet give me this seeds that you say are not good for the pigeon. I did not know that are not good for the pigeon.
> If I feed the pigeons together they start to fight, the baby pigeon start the fight and then became both nervous. In any case I will try....
> 
> Dana


Dana, perhaps because you are in Romania, the black sunflower seeds there just happen to be bigger, just take out the largest ones and the white striped ones. Feed them a little further apart, so they each feel they have their own area/food and do not have to defend it, but are still "together" try this and see what happens.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, thank you al lot and I try to do everything that you telling me.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi! I have sad news about my birds. Until now I could not talk about my wounded pigeon. I still cry for her. Morning when I woke up four days ago I found her dead. I was devastated. The vet said it may have had liver or other organs affected by the trichomoniasis.Feeding her becoming more difficult because she refuse food. I thought it was stressful and sad because it is trapped and she want to be free.Now she may be happy and be free in heaven.
My baby pigeon flew two days ago and never returned. I put him on the jamb of the window and he saw the pigeons that I feed flying and suddenly went after them. Far cry after him because I did not expect to leave and not come back. I care a month and was quite fond of me. I do not know if it will ever come back. I put at my window the litter box where he slept maby he can fell the smell and came back. I don't know what to do, I am devastated right now!
It was my first experience with a squab and I was happy if he stayed near my house.....but...
What do you think? It is possible to return? Is been two days since he left. There are chances to came back home?

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am so very sorry to hear this sad news about this sweet little bird. Each day lately I was thinking about her and wondering how she was doing, so this was not the news I was expecting to hear and it's heartbreaking. You did all you could for her and whatever chance she did have of recovering from her illness, you gave it to her, it was just not meant to be for her.

With the young one, my hope is that since he took off with flock he is still with them and they show him the ways of feral life and how to survive in the wild. You also gave him a second chance, so we will pray all is well with him. Bless you for all you have done and will do for these birds.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, thank you so much for all your help!
That was to be with my beautiful bird. It was my first experience with an injured pigeon and I am glad that at least I learned many new things.Now I know better how to help birds. I am sorry that I was not a happy ending. Maybe in the future when I will need help with any injured bird will talk.
Thank you again Karin!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi!
This is a beautiful and happy day for me because my baby pigeon Piu is home again. After 3 days outside finaly is caming back to me.
He is very weak and I do not think it feels good. However he eat many seeds and he drink a lot water. I took a picture after he eat and I will post the picture. However was very happy to come home. He pecking at my hand constantly. I do not like he look, he lies shriveled and closed his eyes all the time. Can something be wrong with him? Now I am worry for that.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, this is wonderful news indeed. I am so glad to hear Piu has come home. Please make sure he is not able to go outside until he is really ready, which may a few weeks yet, plus there are things to do before hand to make sure he is ready, and we'll make sure things are right for him, before you let him try again. He may just be a bit starved and de-hydrated (no food, did not have water to drink for days), give him a day and see how he feels tomorrow.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand. Maby tomorrow Piu will fell better. Yes I was thinking like you to take him home another few weeks more. I inform you tomorrow how he feels.

Thank you Karyn.


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn! 
Piu feels much better today. Still eats a lot and drink plenty of water. Seems very happy to be home again. And I think that Piu it is a boy because start to spins and swell their feathers as males do and sometimes became agressiv with my husband hand. I keep you informed if something happens and before I will try to release him out again I will ask for your opinion.
I can't describe you how happy I am that Piu it is home safe!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I thought he would feel better today, he will feel even a little tomorrow again. One of the things you need to do for him is to provide a shallow pan of tepid water (a little warm) for him to bathe in, 4-6cm deep. Doing this will allow him to keep his feathers clean and aid him in "waterproofing" his feathers so they can better repel the rain when he is released, this is very important to his survival, as feathers that are easily wet, really reduce flying ability and make keeping warm much harder on them to do.

Place him next to the pan of water and put your hand into the water and splash a bit in it to help stimulate him to bathe. If after a while he does not quite get it, you can gently place him in the pan to see if he will start to bathe. Don't place him in more than once, if he leaves the pan, as we don't want him to have any negative associations with bathing, just continue to splash with your hand in the water. If he won't bathe, try this same routine each day until he starts to want to bathe, then allow him to bath each day after, if he wants to, you can change the tepid water to room temperature water, once he is used to bathing.

I am happy he is home safe with you as well.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I understand and I do exactly as you told me. But after a bath I leave it alone to dry or dry with hair dryer it. I think it will be cold after bathing.
You know one day he wanted to wash one that puts its head in drinking water and when I see that I put some water in a plastic container and by his one was plugged in and began to wash. Then he shaking very hard and I dry him with hair dryer but I do not know if I did well. I did't knew that I could leave him to bathe her every day but I see that is imoprtant for him to survive. It is ok I will do that.
Thank you so much Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, using a hairdryer is OK, but do not use the high setting, either for heat or blower force, use medium to low only. Test the blow-dryer to the back of your hand so you can gage from what distance the heat and force feel warm, not hot for Piu, keep the blow-dryer moving back and forth always, so not to concentrate any force of heat in one spot. Dry him to only about 75%, let him finish the rest by himself, sounds like things went well before with his bath. As he becomes more "waterproof" you will not need to help dry him at all. If you put his "bathing pan" out each day, he then can decide if he chooses, or does not choose to bath that day, the more often he baths though, the sooner his feathers will get into condition.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I understand. Well starting tomorrow I'll do to Piu every day bathroom and I will do what you tell me. Keep you informed how goes it.
thank you again!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn!
Everything was perfect with Piu's bath . He came alone in the water and washing in the water as a duck. After the bath I dry him with hairdryer on low speed just a little because in my hose was warm.
Karyn, I got a problem that still bothers me. I will be leaving on July 20 in Italy and I'm coming back home over 3-4 weeks ( I do not know the exact day when I leave and when I get back). I don't know when to try again to release Piu outeside because I'm not sure how good it will do outside. If after a week or maby two I will try again to release Piu outside, do you think that he will adapt and will do one without me until I return home? I worry for him because he would not know where to find food and water outside and if the first time he returned home a I think he will return home for food. And he will not find me at home.I do not know what to do with Piu to be safe and for me to have a quiet vacation.
I think maby is bettre to make for Piu a shelter near my window so he will know where to sleep at night.Do you think it is good as I think or is it better to leave him to handle?I think I'm too protective of him but I love him too much.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am glad everything went well with Piu bathing, sounds like he enjoyed himself. Dana, you are not leaving for over three weeks so we don't have to rush any decisions, let's just get him into the best condition we can and see how he is doing each week. I would like him, if he could, to spend time each day looking out the window where you usually feed "your" birds so he can start to "imprint" that area/"photo" in his mind to associate it with safety and food, keep up the baths and make sure he has plenty of chances and time to exercise and fly, as best you can, while he is inside with you for now.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, tomorrow I will make a pictures to see the place where Piu spends all days. He can see very good the place where my other pigeons eat. He fly very very well and every day I make exercise with him. He feel better every day.

Thank you Karyn!
Dana


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## Vulturescu

*Hi Karyn!*

This is where Piu spend all day long. Anywhere he can see the place where birds feed.When he sees the other birds flying became very agitated and he wants to go after them.He wants to fly and catch with claws the insect guard.
On that day when he left after other birds I have not put the insect protection in the window. I let him to see what he will do and suddenly took off. I was not expecting to go so fast.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Here is a picture wher are fighting for food. And the second pictures is in the day when he flew after other pigeons.


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## Dobato

Dana, thanks for the photos, I have a more clear idea in mind of the situation. Where Piu sits beside the screen is very good, he should do this every day. Dana, could you post some pictures of Piu's fresh droppings, they should be clear, well lit, and close-up if you can. Dropping can tell a lot about a pigeon's health and I would Like to examine Piu's droppings to see how he is feeling inside. Yes, I can see in the last photo now, how he got away.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I'll take pictures and I will post them.If I understood well droppings means excrement?

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karin,this are the best pictures I can do for now, if are not so good I will try to take others foto.Let me know if there are sufficient.

Thank you!
Dana


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## Vulturescu

I forgot to mention that first picture is made immediately after drinking water.After drinking water, two to three times droppings are liquid.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, the first dropping looks like a excitement dropping, which they do sometimes when they are excited, or sometimes when frightened. The second one, although not ideal, looks much better. If you could post a photo Piu's droppings once a week, it would be good, as I would like to monitor them for the next little while. If at anytime they stop looking like the second one with frequency, please let us know.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

May have been excited because he see others pigeons outside.Today Piu was very agitated and gave wings constantly, especially when he sees other birds.Today he do not want any bathroom but the rest is well.
O.K. I will post once a week Piu's droppings and of course I will tell you if the droppings stop looking like now.

Thank you very much Karyn!
Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hello Karyn, I have to tell you that Piu does not want to stay in the house at all. Is very excited and desperately wants to fly. He just sit watching the window and sees any move to break out my insect guard. I released yesterday and today he came back, he ate and everything is fine. Now is in my house again. I don't know what is the best I can do for him because in my house is not happy at all.You think it is better to hold it in the house? I'm afraid that if I keep Piu too much in the house and he does not want to stay he can not be right back to me.
I made a small shelter near the window( see the foto) and I would like to use for Piu to sleep at night there.Do you think that is possibile Piu can learn to sleep in this place? Or is it better to let him sleep where he finds.Other birds sleep under the roof blocks but he knows how to shelter there. 
Thank you!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, it's been just over a week since Piu made his way back to you after being out on his own, where he did not do well. I think we need to make sure we get some more weight on him and make sure he is very good condition to be be let go out on his own again. I know it's frustrating for both of you, but I would rather err on the side of caution and keep him in a while longer to make sure he matures a bit more.

It is natural for him to want to be with the other birds, this is a good thing, it sure would be good to get a weight on Piu, is there any way this is possible, as it would help a lot knowing what his body mass is, as the more weight he has on him, the more room he has in terms of body reserves to get used to being on his own.

I know it will be a bit mess, but it would be good if you could spread out some loose seeds for him to learn to peck at, as there will not be dishes of seed in the wild for him. Also, if you could provide some of the kinds of food he may see out there, cooked rice, broken up bread, muffins and so on (you may know better what your local people feed the wild pigeons), so he regards these things as food as well. I had it in my mind we were working to getting him ready for release just before you left for Italy in a few weeks, I still think this is best for him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

O.K. Karyn, I'll still keep it in house if you say it's good for him. Will be increasingly hard for us because he does not want to stay indoors and most of the time is very nervous and excited. I was thinking that if he were accustomed to come to my window would be good for him. I wanted to teach him to do that until I go to Italy because I spoke with a friend and I will leave my house keys and she can come bring it to Piu food every two days.
After I get back into the country everything will be okay. I want just for him to be safe until I am return home.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

I already learned to eat bread and he really like. People usually give them rice, bread and wheat in pigeons.The problem is that he has no courage to descend down the street looking for food.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> O.K. Karyn, I'll still keep it in house if you say it's good for him. Will be increasingly hard for us because he does not want to stay indoors and most of the time is very nervous and excited. I was thinking that if he were accustomed to come to my window would be good for him. I wanted to teach him to do that until I go to Italy because I spoke with a friend and I will leave my house keys and she can come bring it to Piu food every two days.
> After I get back into the country everything will be okay. I want just for him to be safe until I am return home.
> 
> Dana


Dana, yes, has been on my mind all along to train him to come to your window, that's why I asked you to let him spend time each day looking out of it. I wanted to wait a bit more until we give him the chance again to try and come and go, as if he does not make it "home", we know he has more age and weight on him to help him survive better, until he figures out how to make it back again. When we do this it is a form of "soft release" where they can come "home" for food and shelter, but go free during the day, he is not ready for this next step just yet, perhaps in the 7-10 days. This will give you about 2 weeks after this to look after him being "semi-free" and to ensure the best possible transition as we can for him. Very glad to hear someone will be coming by to feed "your" birds, this is welcomed news. Try your best to get a weight for him. Courage will come with age, experience and being part of the flock.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I promise that I will do my best for him. 
Keep in touch!
And thank you so much for everything!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

*Hi*

Hi Karyn, this are new pictures( were made today) with Piu's droppings and with him to see how it looks now. I'm sorry but better than these pictures with droppings I can not do because I have a bad photo-camera. Piu is home, I did not tried to release him, for this time I listening to your advice. Is very anxious to go and sit all the time hanging on the insect guard.....but everything is OK.
Thank you!

Dana


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## Dobato

Hi Dana,

Piu looks like he has put on some weight, which is very good, and the droppings don't look too bad. As I said, I know it's hard for the both of you, but you are doing the right thing for him, by keeping him inside to mature a while longer, as even a week's extra time to mature under care, can make all the difference in the world for them making it on their own when they are released. I know I have mentioned it before, but it would be really good if you could weigh Piu, as body weight will really help us determine better when he can be let out again, ask your friends and family if the have a small scale you could borrow for a day. He is coming along very well, keep up the good work.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes he put some weight, eat well and he make almost every day bath. Karyn, there is not much use kitchen scales and there are few people you have at home. I will trying to find someone who has it.Sure I could buy one but I do not use in the kitchen the scale because I am accustomed to gradual cup ( most of the people use gradual cup ).
Now I do know that I leave on July 23 in Italy and I get turned on August 28. My friend will come and put Piu food but it is very important for Piu to learn that the food he finds inside the shelter from the window. Piu must learn to find food inside the shelter because there will not get there any other bird. If I leave him food out they will eat other pigeons away. The little shelter is the only place that I can let food and the food is just for him.I hope everything will be OK with Piu while I miss home!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, do you think that tomorrow would be better to try to release Piu? I will stay two weeks so I can teach Piu where to eat and where to shelter at night.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Piu has been on my mind. Is there anyway we can get a weight for Piu even if you have to put him in a small box and take him somewhere, where they could do you the favor of weighing him. You could weigh him in the box and then take him out and the weigh the box empty, simple math will then be able to tell us what he weighs. We need him to be around a certain weight and I would really like to know he is at a good weight.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I will try to do this thing right now. It was so simple but I never thought about it. I have to go to market and ask a clerk to help me. I do right now because the store is right next to my block.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, Piu weighs 294 grams. He stood alone on the scale and very quiet, is a sweet little pigeon. I hope his weight is good.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, thank you very much for getting his weigh, this was very important. His weight, 294 grams, is not enough weight on him so if things were to go not perfect with his soft release he would have enough "body weight" to increase his chances of survival. I would like to see him over 325 grams, if at all possible, before we chance letting him have his freedom again. Let's see in 4-5 days if you can really fatten him up, feed him everything he likes, lots. At night I would like you to make the corn bread I gave you the recipe for earlier; http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=477984&postcount=7 , for Robin, and cut this into small pieces and feed Piu about 15-20 pieces later at night, allow him time after to have a good drink of water after. This is how to "pop" the little pieces of corn bread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow 

Dana if we have to take a few more days to get some more weight on him, even if this leaves a little less time for you to help feed him when he is released, this is a good trade off, as the more he weighs, the better his chances are.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I will try to do my best for him. Yes I know very well the recip you give me for Robin because I prepared a few times. I understand, if you say so we will do as you say.
Thank you Karyn!

Dana


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## pdpbison

Hi Dana,



Can you simply allow the Window to be open, so Piu can fly, and, return, and, find his own pace of a graduated release?

I think he has not really had any introduction by a mentor, for being socialized to the Wild others.

Nomally, their Dad over sees this, flys with the fledgling, feed him and watches over him, where the Wild Birds graze and forrage.

Where, over however many days and occasions of the supervision, the youngster begins forraging and grazing with the Wild Others also, and, finds his confidence to be among them, to be assertive, and to enter the fray for getting seeds or other food...and acquires the Wild Modes of being, of awareness, and of response, attunement.


I usually do this with them when they are about 2 weeks old, setting them among the Wild Bird's grazings, where I hang back a little and supervise, and the youngster knows I am there...and, we do this however many times, for them to find the confidence and self assertion and to be relaxed and easy with it.

Later then, when they self-release with my permission, they know what to do, they know how to be with the Wild Birds, and they are not 'nervous' about it.


I tried making a Thread a while ago, called 'Socialize your 'Peeper' to their Wild Kin', or something like that, but the Thread got insulted and attacked by people who only wished to find fault, and who remained oblivious to the entire point I was wishing to share.

Once a young Pigeon is flying, unless one can in fact call them and have them come, it is too difficult to try and bring them to a Wild grazing situation, to supervise them and give moral support, for them to acquire the confidence, and for them to acquire the Wild Modes of awareness, and response and so on, which they need to learn from being with the Wild Birds.


No 'release' of a hand raised Bird should ever be a sudden or one time thing.


The 'release' needs to be a graduated series of events, culminating in the Bird's authentic acquisition of modes of being and confidence, for being easy, self assured, independent and ready for the Wild Life.

If getting a late start, they can usually manage to pgoress in increments, if allowed to come and go on their own...especially if they show signs of wanting to do so.


A lot depends on the area, and it's dangers though...as far as how safe for the youngster this self-supervised late learning phase would be.




Phil
Lv


----------



## Dobato

pdpbison said:


> Hi Dana,
> 
> Can you simply allow the Window to be open, so Piu can fly, and, return, and, find his own pace of a graduated release?
> Phil
> Lv


Phil, I think that is the plan, Dana will leave the window open and have Piu come and go to the little "home" she has made for him just inside the window as he pleases, and then feed the others (and him if he's with them) just outside the window, as one of the photos show. We are just trying to get a bit more weight on him in case he wanders a bit and takes a little while to get his bearings, to ensure he has enough body reserves.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

As long as he is in fact able to fly "up" to the Window to come back in...from the Ground...this may work well.

Long as he knows he can come back in, he has the option as a transitional phase toward his acquiring confidence and independence.


But, he needs to be flying off far enough to be grazing and forraging with the Wild Birds, of course...


----------



## Dobato

pdpbison said:


> As long as he is in fact able to fly "up" to the Window to come back in...from the Ground...this may work well.
> 
> Long as he knows he can come back in, he has the option as a transitional phase toward his acquiring confidence and independence.
> 
> 
> But, he needs to be flying off far enough to be grazing and foraging with the Wild Birds, of course...


Yes, Phil exactly, Dana has been working for weeks now with Piu building up his flying abilities and strength inside her apartment. When the time comes we will try and make things casual and matter of fact for him, to let him know he has a "home". Plus, for him to recognize that on the top of what looks to be an air-conditioning unit, there will always be food to be had at certain times of day and that the top of the unit can lead into "home" for him.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Okeydoky...sounds good.


I tried reviewing the Thread but there are a lot of distractions here today, and my reading comprehension is likely poor.


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Phil, Hi Karyn,

We decided to kept Piu home today and tomorrow I will leave the window open and see what he does. I do not know anymore how to keep it inside for another 4-5 days because he is very excited and I can not control. I argue with my husband every day because of it and I think that Piu will certainly come back to eat and it will be just fine. It's been almost two months since Piu is in my house.
Karyn, last night and tonight I will cram the food good and tomorrow should leave him free. It's just a pain for him and for us to keep him for a few days hanging stand guard isect only.

Dana


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## pdpbison

Hi Dana, 


In the future, if you are raising any Orphan Babys...consider to find a place where the Wild Pigeons graze in safety and serenity, and, to introduce your 'Peeper' to them by setting the Baby ( once 12 days of age or older, but 12 is fine ) among them.

Successive sessions of these sort, allows the Baby thence youngster, to acquire the modes of being, self confidence, self assetiveness, and attunement, which they will need to later be 'released' or to self release, and, to handle themselves confidently among their then peers.

This needs to be done well before they are flying...and you simply scatter Seed for the Wild Pigeons, set your Baby there among them, and step back a little, crouching low and staying very still.

The Baby can see you are looking after them, and if any adult birds bother them, you can clear your throat or scold them as you see fit. They all soon realize it is "your" Baby, and, the Baby realizes he or she is protected and being over seen.

The Baby will very soon emulate their pecking, wing Slap or lash out with a Pecking lunge, to ANY Adult feral or Wild Pigeon who DARES to go after 'his' or 'her' Seed, or who crouds or pushes or bothers them.

I have done and seen this many times...a barely two week old Baby, Wing Slapping or Beak lashing a 400 Gram Adult, and, every time, the Adult backs up, and, assumes an air of "Oh, alright, sorry...I will not crowd you again", and all is peaceful, and the Baby is pecking Shoulder to Shoulder with the Adults.

Without these introductory sessions, supervised by the care giver, a Pigeon raised by hand, and, released long later as a sub adult, the Bird will tend to have many problems with confidence, being 'nervous', being confused, intimidated about being close to Grazing Forraging Wild Pigeons, "not ready", and so on.


Plus, the various means I advocate, of allowing a quite young Pigeon to learn to peck and self feed under supervision, alleviates any issues later with 'weaning'...as well as making the growing up phase happier and easier for the Bird and for us.

If we integrate our methods of raising the Babys we get, and find means to socialize them before they are flying to their Wild or Feral kin, it is all so much easier, safer and more successful, for the Birds, and, for us...things can be 'complete'.

One thing you could do, is see if anyone near you has adult Pigeons in an Aviary or Loft or other, for your young one to spend time among. Possibly you could supervise even, if he is nervous...Mark him somehow if need be so you do not loose him among the others.

Once you see his has acquired confidence and self assertion, you will know he has learned some of the important things he will need, and, a self release as with the 'Window', then may be more comfortable for him, and, for you.




Phil
Lv


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## Vulturescu

Ók Phil,thank you and in the future I'll know what to do. Piu I hope will fit into the world of birds and everything will be good for him. I did everything I could to protect him and know he will be fine. I hope to learn to find the food at my window and there will always be home if he wants.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, let's try and do 3 days of extra feeding OK, last night, tonight, then one more tomorrow night and then the next day we will open the screen and let him try again with the others. Put out a little extra food today and tomorrow for the other birds to spend more time with Piu by the screen, for him to be close to them. I know it's hard, and by the picture I see he wants to go, but trust me a little extra weight may make all the difference for him. If his weight was good I would have told you, yes, he is ready, but it is his weight, not the time with you that needs just a wee bit more help and the few days will do this.

When the time comes in two days, take Piu into the washroom, then go back and take the screen out, open the window put extra food to keep the birds around longer, put some extra food inside the widow on the ledge where Piu liked to watch the birds before. When there is a good amount of birds there, go in the washroom and bring Piu back, place him a little ways away, where he can see the other birds feeding and let him go to them. He should then fly up and be with them and hopefully start to feed with them. After the food is done and they leave, see is Piu leaves with them, if he does, immediately put more food out to call them back and see if Piu comes back to feed with them again. Do this a lots of times through the day and leave the window open so he can come in if he wants to, you want to keep them around all day so Piu "locks" this area in his mind as food and "home" and not have them take Piu off somewhere, where he might find it difficult to find his way back if he became separated from the flock. Keep putting food out frequently until evening and see if Piu still comes and then wants to come in and spend the night at "home", leave the window open until dark, and if he does not return, open it early in the morning, wait a while to see if he will come "home" then place food for "your" birds to see if he is with them.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I will keep him home tonight and tomorrow night, I will feed him and after I will take the screen out and do what you say.I will let you know aboute this.

Thank you Karyn!

Dana


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## pdpbison

Hi Dana,


What is the situation or condition on the ground, below the Window?

Do Seeds fall to the ground there, and, the Wild PIgeons graze those Seeds also?


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

Phil, earlier in the thread Dana put up some photos of her situation;

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-very-bad-injury-at-the-beak-44957-5.html

From the looks of things, will need Dana to confirm though, seeds would fall and I would imagine birds would also feed below.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes Karyn, seeds often fall down and I throw down the seeds right in the garden . When the pigeons come to the window and are to many and have no place to eat then I throw the seeds down in the garden. I post you an old pictures with the pigeon in the garden, in this pictures are few pigeons, usually are 3 or 4 times more.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Four hours ago I let go of Piu. I put food on the window as you said Karyn and then I left open. The other birds were there but he was not interested. He was very curious and excited to go. 
After two minutes took off and flew on the roof of the building. I saw him for several minutes as they look on the roof and study area and then I do not know where he fly. Probably he come back tomorrow because now is too hectic and desperate to fly. I hope Piu integrate into the flock of pigeons and be all right for him.
Has food in his house from the window when he return.He knows that there finds food because for several days before to let him be free I put him in his house to eat.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, you have done everything you can for Piu. All we can do now is hope things go well for him, knowing that you are there to help in every way you can with this. Please keep us updated and keep putting lots of food out through the day.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

The Garden situation is a big plus, that the Wild Birds can graze there...

Your little one should be fine, I am sure he is having fun and enjoying his flying and socializing...he knows where the WIndow is, and is orienting himself.


Sounds like he is a good flier!


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, Hi Phil!
Piu returned an hour ago and came to his little house from the window. He knew he has food in his house and immediately went to eat and now is inside his little home and resting. It seems like everything is fine with him. Keep you informed what happens.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, this is the news I have been hoping to hear, this is just wonderful! I know how hard it must have been letting him go yesterday and then waiting to see him again. You have done such a super job for Piu and your hard work has been rewarded.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

So is Karyn, It was extremely hard to see him leaving and I cried all day. I very much attached to him and if he did not want to leave I would have kept Piu always. But he wanted so much to be free and I want to see him happy. Now I see Piu rest in his little house. Eat little, scratching their feathers and rest. When he want to leave is free to do as he wants now.I am happy because Piu learn that food found in the house from my window because when I will leave in Italy I know that Piu will always go eat there in his little house and my friend will come every 3 days to fills his bowl with seeds.
That is the greatest joy to know that Piu is safe.
Thank you Karyn for everything!!!

Dana


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## pdpbison

If Piu is male, he may wish to retain his access to the amenities, returning now and then, to where eventually, after a couple years, he may bring a Hen and if she approves of the condition/situation, they may elect to build a Nest and make Babys inside there, coming and going through the Window.

If Piu is a female, she may continue to visit the amentities, while eventually, electing a Mate who will bring her to his prospective places which he has to offer, for her approval, for building a Nest.


Time will tell.


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## Vulturescu

Phil, Piu is male and I am one hundred percent sure of that. He often nibble on my hand and begins to swell their feathers and spin, making the nuptial dance. Since yesterday he is here at my window. He stay in his little house and relax and sometimes goes out on my air conditioning. Now is not exited like he was before.
When he wants to leave is free to fly again.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Right now while I write you the message Piu flew. Phil, I will be very happy if will happening as you say if Piu is a male. And Piu is a male!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, glad to hear that Piu is more settled in things, and not so excited. I am also glad you will be there for while yet before you have to leave for Italy to help with this.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thank you Karyn!
I post some pictures I made today with my beautiful Piu.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Piu looks beautiful and relaxed and the dropping in the first photo looks very good as well.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, Hi Phil!
Piu is well, come and go more often now. First he leaving and returning home after a day but now Piu leave in the morning and in the evening going back and sleeping in his little house. The only problem is that he stands up on the block and he not want at all to get down in the garden or down the street, is very scared. 
I leave Friday and as I said there will come a friend of mine to fills his bowl with seeds and bring it him fresh water every 3 days. Before I go I will do a few pictures to see it.
Now all I want is to find him well when I get back.

Dana


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## Dobato

Hi Dana,

Piu has been in my thoughts the last few days, thanks for checking in. In time Piu's confidence will grow and he will go down to the garden, and venture to other places, as he feels more sure of things. It sounds like he is adjusting well and knows he has a safe place, food and water to return to each day. I am glad you have a friend that is going to help you while you are away and I am sure Piu will be just fine during the time you will be gone. Post the photos when you get a chance and have a safe and enjoyable trip to Italy.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, here are some new pictures of Piu. It seems to me that Piu has increased. Now Piu spend more time at my window and in his little house. 
It is very possessive of his place and when the other birds came at the window Piu starts to fight with them until they leave. Now I have to give the other birds to eat just down in the garden because Piu is master on my window. Karyn, when I get back from Italy I will tell you how I will found Piu.
Thank you very much Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, these are very nice pictures of Piu, he looks very good. It is natural for him to be territorial around his "home", so him wanting to drive the other birds away from an area he now considers his is not unusual and and him willing to be assertive about it, is good to hear, as it means his confidence is growing. You have done such a very good job with Piu, I am so very happy you can now leave and enjoy yourself in Italy, without having to worry too much about him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thank you Karyn, and I am so very happy as I can go quiet in Italy. I really did everything possible to postpone our departure and to stay as little as possible in Italy. We have family there in Italy and the other house because my husband is Italian. Typically three months each summer we spend in Italy but we have reduced this year as I could as possibile for the sake of Piu. I really did my best for him and I am really happy that all my sacrifice worth! All I want is to find him well when we get back....and I think it will be good!
Again thank you Karyn and I wish you a beautiful summer!!!

Dana


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## pdpbison

Hi Dana,



Looking good with your progress!



Piu is such a lovely young Pigeon too...


Have a good Trip!!


Phil
Lv


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## Vulturescu

Thank you very much Phil!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

*Hi Karyn, Hi Phil!!!*

Hi Karyn and Hi Phil! How are you? I am fine and I returned from my looong vacation and I am happy to be home again. I put some new pictures with Piu as it is now. I found good on Piu, a little wild but I got it and I kept with me two days and is better now,he remember me and remembers everything. My friend came to bring it to eat but the other birds came into his little house and he ate Piu's food and I think that the other pigeons beat him because he was afraid of getting into the house to eat again. For this reason I found him quite weak and when we got him first thing he did was to eat a lot from my hand. I kept him at home two days during which he ate well and this morning I released him because it was good and I would not have wanted him angry. Anyway I found a beautiful bird and I am glad that I am back home again and I can see everyday my beautiful Piu.

Dana


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## Dobato

Hi Dana, I am so very happy to hear that Piu was waiting for you and did OK while you were gone, I have been wondering how things were going for him, thanks for the photos. They are such smart little creatures, I know he remembers all that you did for him and I am sure he will be back in tip-top shape in short order now that you are back. Please keep us updated in the future on Piu and if you ever need help with him or any other bird, please let us know. You did great with him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

O.K. Karyn, of course that I will keep you updated on Piu and be sure that if I will ever need help with Piu or any other birds I will let you know! 
Thank you for everything you taught me and all the help that you gave me!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, I noticed that his feet Piu not look very good and I want to ask if it's ok. If you look at recent pictures at Piu's feet you can see how it looks. Then look at the old pictures and see what the difference is. He has some dry bumps that seem to fall now. That is what worries me now and I want your opinion Karyn. 
Piu comes every day to eat twice a day and is still a bit wild, does not let me pet him and touch him. But a two days ago I managed to make him to eat from my hand. It hurts to see him so scared and I do not understand why he became so scared. Do you think it will get used to me again or is likely to remain so wild? 
Thank you, Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, his feet have matured from when he was young, "toughened up", so they no longer look same. To me they look OK, a little dirty from walking through some droppings, but there is just a little something in the very first photo that I can't quite make out. If you want to wash his feet up a bit and take a few more photos you can do that, if there is no swelling, boils, cuts, limp or other issues, I would not worry too much.

Dana, with your prolonged absence in Italy he has become a little "wild" with you, this is common. I have pigeons in my coup that I have hand raised from babies, who are now adults, who don't like me to touch them at all any more and others who don't mind. So some of it will depend on a bird's own natural personality, but trust me, the birds I mentioned would not sit on my hand for a photo, so your relationship with Piu is still intact and in time he may get a little more like you knew him before, but if he does not, you will still have a special relationship with him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, If I could catch him I'll try to wash his feet as you tell me to see if it's just dirty. I will not want to catch him by force and not to became more scare aboute me. I'll try to get close to him as much as is possibile and perhaps may be again my gentle and loving pigeon.When he was little and sat on my hand I use to approached him next to my face and he began to peck kiss me all over the face. Now when I returned from Italy and I kept him two days Piu reminded me and kissed me like before. I can not describe you what I felt! I do not understand why he remembered all this things but now that is outside does not let me touch him. I want to understand what is in his little head. Important is that I managed to make him eat from my hand and in time can be comfortable with me.
Thank you so much Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, his feet are not an emergency, so you are right, take your time build up the trust again and when you can, take a few photos. As I said, one of the birds I talk about used to fall asleep on my chest and now she acts at times like she almost never has seen me before when I try and handle her, so they mature and change. Piu is growing up and with this he is bound to change a bit, so you will just have to love him and accept these changes as he grows. Plus, in the end, you don't want him too friendly with people as not all are kind hearts, like yourself, so a little wild is good for him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, you're right that not all people are good and it is better to be a little wild. It was hard for me when I returned from Italy because I expected to find him just as I left but now I know I need to peace with the thought that he has matured and changed. Anyway I am happy to see him everyday and feed him from my hand. Whatever I know it will always come to my window because there will always find food and he knows that there he went to his first flight.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

*Hi Karyn!!!*

Dear Karyn, here are some new pictures. Piu's okay, comes every day to eat and is becoming more savage and more scared. Before, Piu coming to eat twice a day but now comes only once. I hope he will not leave me. I noticed that was not integrated into the flock of pigeons in the area because Piu never sit in the area. When I see him go, he fly so far away and I am afraid that he will not comeback someday. However it is a healthy bird, beautiful and I know that he will do well even if it will not come to me. Whatever happens Piu will always be a big part of my heart!

Dana


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## Dobato

Hi Dana, thanks for checking in and updating us on Piu, you may not believe this, but for some reason I thought of you and Piu yesterday and was very happy to find this post from you today. He has grown up into a very beautiful, and healthy pigeon thanks to you. He may have chosen to associate himself with a different flock of birds in your area and leaves to join them each day. There is also the chance he may choose a mate and build a nest away from your area, so in the future with a new mate from a different flock, and the eventuality of children, there will be periods where you may not see him at all. He is now wise to the world he lives in, strong and healthy, Piu will be just fine wherever his life leads him. 

You did a wonderful job with him,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, perhaps you thinking yesterday at us because yesterday I took and downloaded the pictures from the camera and I thought I'd write to you but something intervened and I was able to write to you today. Thought to thought! 
I realize that Piu someday will go and belive me that is breaking my heart....but this is the life, I am happy because Piu it will have a beautiful bird life. I do not know if he already find a mate. If he would find the pair maby he can bring her to my window to show her were the food is. Whatever happens, I got to enjoy these days that he comes to eat because I do not know how long I'll see Piu. I keep you informed about what will happen and thank you Karyn!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Here is autumn now and winter starts in a month. Winters here are very cold and snowy with temperatures of minus 20 or 30 degrees Celsius. I say this because I do not think he can build their nests now when winter starts. Most likely this will happen in the spring. And I thinking that in the winter he will not find food so easily and he will come to me to eat. Anyway I'll keep you informed!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, these guys are so very bright, with high survival instincts, many times they get into a routine of different places to visit for food and safety and I am sure your place will always be very high on Piu's list. I know it must be hard letting him go a little bit at a time, but continue be happy for him as he has adopted well to his environment and with any luck will have many years ahead of him in the wild.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

*Hi Karyn!*

Hi Karyn, this morning when I left the house I found a badly injured pigeon. I took him straight to the vet. He has a broken wing, a broken leg and several small wounds on the body. The vet cleaned and put an bandage at the wing and leg and gave him antibiotics. The problem is the wing, because it is broken right at the wrist. The vet does not know if it will fuse the bones because are broken at the wrist. I don't know what else could I do to repair the bones. For now vet put a bandage because there is an open wound. Tomorrow I go back and would change the bandage. I wonder if we should put a splint, something to keep them right wing, to be able to fix bones. Tomorrow I will try to took him to anothet vet, I don't know what to do, I'm searching to internet maby I can find a vet specializing in broken bones. You think it will repair the bones if we put a splint?
I will immediately make pictures and post them in 10 minutes to see him.


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## Dobato

Hi Dana, thanks for trying to help this little guy out. Here are some links on repairing broken bones in a bird's wing and leg:

http://www.starlingtalk.com/fractures.htm
http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/brokenwing.html
http://www.phillipsmediaservices.com/anglewinghispd.wmv

If your vet has never set broken bones in a bird they will be helpful for him on proper wrapping and taping to try and get the best outcome. The wings are not generally splinted and with legs they are sometimes splinted, but also a number of layers of tape can be applied to work like a splint to immobilize the leg and not allow bending or movement while it heals.

I know you say the vet gave antibiotics, but because of the wounds and we don't know how this bird was injured, say by a cat, he should stay on antibiotics for a week, ask the vet to prescribe you Clavamox for him (Amoxicillin/Clavulanate). In case he does not know the dosing for this medicine for pigeons tell him it would be 125mg/kg q12h.

I will PM another member that is very good with broken bones to have a look at this thread as well.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I think it was hit by a car, not seem to be bitten by a cat because It has too many fractures. The vet gave him baytril for prevent infection. 
I wait for charging the fotocamera battery to post you pictures.
I will read this sites you give me.
Thank You Karyn!


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I think it was hit by a car, not seem to be bitten by a cat because It has too many fractures. The vet gave him baytril for prevent infection.
> I wait for charging the fotocamera battery to post you pictures.
> I will read this sites you give me.
> Thank You Karyn!


Dana, because of all the open wounds and broken bones, he should still stay on antibiotics for a week.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

ok here are some pictures...


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## Vulturescu

When I found him had some food in goiter. I tried to give him water but does not want, does not want to eat anything. I think it hurts all the wounds, and hope not to have internal injuries.


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## Dobato

Dana, a broken wing is not usually wrapped like in your photo, but I do not know enough about broken bones to say if it should be re-wrapped, the way I am used to seeing a broken wing set/wrapped (like in the links I gave you), or if the location of the break was the chief consideration for your vet wrapping it this way, leave it for now until we get a little more feedback on this, as the break looks to be immobilized, which is good. The leg looks to be good and he looks bright in his eye, which is important, is he passing any droppings at all?

Get him set up in a "donut towel" to make him comfortable, as in this link for now:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

Put a seed and water dish right at the edge of the towel so he does not have to move, just stretch his neck to eat and drink, put paper towels under the donut for easy cleaning of his droppings. It may take a little while for him to feel less stressed enough to start eating, give him a bit of time. If you could set him up in a cage/box off the floor (this is important, they do not like to be low down, especially when hurt) and cover the top with a light cloth so he feels "secure" in a "cave" this will help lower his stress.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

In this sites you gave me I see another way to bandage a wing. Maybe my vet did not placed correctly the bandage. For you, it seems better that way or should I go to change the bandage and to put it like see in this 
http://www.starlingtalk.com/fractures.htm

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, check my last post I mentioned this, leave it for now I will also email the other member to see if I can get him to look in quicker on this.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

The droppings look good, I will make some dropping pictures tomorrow because now I have some problems with photo camera. Yes I will make him comfortable and I already put him water and seeds.

Thanks karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> The droppings look good, I will make some dropping pictures tomorrow


This is a good sign, keep checking back for further information.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

And aboute Piu, is very well, he still came every day to eat. Now it is a wild pigeon, is more wild than other birds, it's look as if he was not raised by me. But I will always love him and will always be my little baby. Is very big, healthy and have very bright feathers. I have some new pictures from yesterday.
The other bird that you see in the picture it is a young pigeon that a month ago I saved him. He hammered a nail, a big nail near the mouth. I took him to the vet and he removed the nail. I kept him at home a week on antibiotics and recovered quickly. What surprised me is that Piu accept him and not beating him as it does with other birds ,now always eat together.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I was wondering about Piu, but wanted to concentrate on your new bird. Piu did grow up to be a very handsome bird, you did a great job with him. The other newer bird, with the mouth injury, to me, looks like it could be a hen (female) and this may be the reason Piu is accepting of this bird. You may have found Piu a new friend that may end up becoming more than a friend . He sure does look diffrent from this earlier photo: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=490077&postcount=111 , glad he still comes everyday for you to feed him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I will be very happy if they becaming more than friend, maby in this way Piu will not leave me.

Dana


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## Pidgey

I don't see anything wrong with that wrapping, given the nature of the break. We usually wrap wings in different ways but that's because we're trying to support the a break in either the humerus or the radius/ulna pair. Did they do an X-Ray and did you get to see or were told in any significant detail exactly which bones were broken?

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Dana, this is Pidgey, the member I spoke of that knows a great deal about these kind of injuries, please answer any questions he has.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thanks Karyn!
Pidgey, the wing is broken at the wrist, and it is an open bleed wound, can see broken bones. The wound wing can be move forward and back easy, because it is broken compared with the other wing which is strong and can bend. I do not know how I could explain exactly what is the place is fractured. Maybe we find a picture of a bird skeleton and I can show you.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Pidgey may be at work, so keep checking back. In the meantime here are some images of a pigeon's skeleton and wing to help with your communication with him. The good thing is we know to leave the wing alone and the wrap looks fine.

http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Skeleton.html

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/554images/Penguin_wing2.jpg

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/90/52990-004-A7D8FB4A.gif

Dont forget to put him on antibiotics for a week, the Clavamox if possible.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, the wing is broken right in the place where Carpus joins Radius & Ulna. The wing is broken in the place where bones are joined.
The leg is broken in the place where Tarsometatarsus joins (Toe Bones) Phalanges.
I use this image
http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/Skeleton.html
Thank you Karyn!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

I can not stay long at the computer, here is already night. Tomorrow morning l will check what it says Pidgey. Tomorrow afternoon I will go to the vet so we have time to talk.

Dana


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## Pidgey

Sorry, was at the company Christmas dinner...

Oh, there's not really much more to be done besides antibiotics and waiting. All you're going to try and do is keep the bird from moving it for about a week and a half and then see what's left (in terms of function). We'll probably want to do some physical therapy later if it's stiff but birds are pretty good about doing their own without being nagged.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Pidgey, thanks a lot for your help and input, might just have to get you a Superpidge costume for Christmas . 

Dana, I was thinking and instead of the Clavamox I asked you to get to give him for a week, I think it will be easier for you if you ask for Baytril instead. With the Clavamox you will have to give much more med at a time than the Baytril, with the Baytril, depending on the strength (ask for a 5% suspension) it will take just a few quick drops to medicate him, easier on him, easier on you.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

I guess that I might add to make sure that it's not so tight that it cuts off the blood supply to the wingtip.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Ok Pidgey, thank you, I was worried that if I did not do as quickly as I can to fix bones they will not weld properly . I want to save the pigeon wing and can fly again.
This morning is more aware, yesterday was shocked. Begin to understand where they are and becomes agitated, refuses to eat anything. I put him gently with his beak into the water and drank. About more than five hours will go to the vet,it is another vet specializing in bone fractures. We see what he will say.
Karyn, ok, will remain on Baytril because already gave him yesterday and now I have to give him again.
Thanks for help!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Dropping pictures....


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## Dobato

Dana, I am not sure how long you have had this little guy, but the photos show an OK amount of solid fecal matter, meaning he is eating, he just may not be allowing you to see him do this. Just keep both his food and water dishes very close to him, where he just has to stretch his neck to eat, and in a covered "cave" type cage setting, up off the ground. They also like it when they are in a place where they can see everything going on, so if you can arrange a place where he can see you and your family doing their daily routines, he will like this, so he is not just hearing noises, but can see what/where the noises are coming from. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, I went to the vet, he put a new bandage and told me that the wing is pretty bad. Sure was bitten by a cat, even I see the spot where teeth stuck. Now time will heal. I will go back to the vet on Sunday, he would change the bandage and check how it feels. I'm so sorry for him that has to bear all the painful stuff....but sometimes life is so cruel.
Karyn, I found him yesterday morning, few hours before to write you. Today finally started eating easy, easy.

Dana


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## Pidgey

Always hard to say with an injury like that. Their bones are certainly capable of healing. Tendons that are torn can heal as long as they're not severed. What often happens that makes wings not function anymore (or lose a lot of it) is that they deposit so much calcium in the inflamed bones and tissues that they hard up to the point of restricting (often serverely or completely) movement. That's why the need for physical therapy (literally working the joint to free it up or extend a range-of-motion limitation). Of course, that doesn't always work due to the reason stated up above.

Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Dana, you are doing everything you can for him and he is a very lucky pigeon it was you who found him. Glad to hear that he has started to feel enough at ease to start to really eat. Also, since now we know this is cat injured bird the antibiotics you are giving him become even more important, as cats carry a bacteria in their mouth and many times birds that are bitten a cat do not die from the bite(s), but from being infected with this bacteria (Pasteurella multocida). I know you are giving Baytril, do you know the strength and how much/often are you giving it? Yes, life can be cruel, and sometimes all we can do is make it less so in the little ways we can.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, the syringe that you see in the picture, the vet told me to give him twice a day, at 12 hours give 5 units. I think that is good Baytril. Piu was bitten by a cat when we found him, and took wing infection, then the vet was treated him with Baytril and did well, but Piu's wound was much smaller.
Pidgey speak something aboute physical therapy, how to do this? Would be nice and much better for he or she if he would soon accommodate us, because it will take a long time until he could fly again.
I put in a place from which we see ourselves all the time in the house.
Karyn, can you figure out if is boy or girl? And I think we need to choose a name, can you give me an idea of a nice name for a dove.
Thank you Pidgey, Karyn!
Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, the syringe that you see in the picture, the vet told me to give him twice a day, at 12 hours give 5 units. I think that is good Baytril. Piu was bitten by a cat when we found him, and took wing infection, then the vet was treated him with Baytril and did well, but Piu's wound was much smaller.
> Pidgey speak something aboute physical therapy, how to do this? Would be nice and much better for he or she if he would soon accommodate us, because it will take a long time until he could fly again.
> I put in a place from which we see ourselves all the time in the house.
> Karyn, can you figure out if is boy or girl? And I think we need to choose a name, can you give me an idea of a nice name for a dove.
> Thank you Pidgey, Karyn!
> Dana


Dana, when you say five units, do you 0.05cc? The syringe I am looking at has about .20cc in it, which means there would be 4 doses in it of .05cc. Could you please describe where on your bird and how, in detail, the vet told you to inject him? Do you know why he is recommending injections instead of by mouth, by mouth is just as effective if a birds digestive system is working well and your bird's GI system seems to be fine. Injections can irritate and damage muscle tissue so usually when a bird is very ill, they might get an initial injection, then the rest of the antibiotic (Baytril) treatment by mouth.

I will let Pidgey help you with some suggestions for physical therapy for your bird, as he has much more experience than me with these things.

To me, this bird looks to be a male, so you may want to think of a male name. I think you did so well in naming Piu, I am sure you will think of a very good name for your new bird.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, in the syringe you see are 2 doses, I give him half in the morning and half in the night (at 12 hours). I give him the Baytril by mouth, no injection, the cover of syringe is together with a needle, therefore has put the needle. Neither the vet did not take the injection, she gave him Baytril by mouth. Tomorrow morning I have to go again with the pigeon to the vet.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, in the syringe you see are 2 doses, I give him half in the morning and half in the night (at 12 hours). I give him the Baytril by mouth, no injection, the cover of syringe is together with a needle, therefore has put the needle. Neither the vet did not take the injection, she gave him Baytril by mouth. Tomorrow morning I have to go again with the pigeon to the vet.
> 
> Dana


Thanks Dana for the information, this is a relief. A little while ago we had a member in your area of the world, Belgrade I think, take their bird to a vet who gave it an injection of Baytril, in the leg, and hurt the bird very badly, so as soon as I saw the needle I got worried. Dana, if it were just a cat bite and no break, I would say the bird should be on antibiotics about 5 days, because of the open break in the wing, I think he should remain on the Baytril for 10 days (or a bit longer if the wound remains open), but see what your vet thinks. He looks very comfortable in his nest, by the way, good job.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

It's probably easier to explain the basic principle of physical therapy using people as an example. Imagine a person who has broken an arm badly at the elbow. The doctors put it in an unmoving cast for a couple of months and when the cast is finally taken off, the arm doesn't want to straighten--it wants to stay in pretty much the same position as it was in the cast. Forcing the joint to bend just a tiny bit more than it wants to in either direction IS physical therapy. Yes, it hurts, but it has to be done in order to free the healing joint over time or else the joint might completely harden up and not move at all.

Usually with animals, we can expect them to do their own physical therapy, but some of them are like some people who would rather settle for the restricted function than take the pain of doing the physical therapy. For this bird, the likelihood will be that the joint might not want to extend as far outward from the body as possible and that would have a detrimental effect on its ability to fly.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

I come now to the vet, changed his bandages again and said that the foot looks good, heal well. The wing it looks good, there are no signs of infection, the wound was closed and we hope that healing goes well.
Karyn, I think I will call him Kimy. Kimy today is more lively, look much better. Maybe has luck to healed completely and I hope with all my heart.
II continued to give antibiotics, as you said, Karyn, we will give him 10 days antibiotic.
Pidgey, I understand what it is about this therapy, but we still have time to get there.

Thanks for everything!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, if all is pretty stable with the breaks your vet does not have to change the bandages too often, as it may disturb the healing if done too often. Kimy is a very nice name indeed, and I am glad to hear each day he shows improvement, yes, do keep him on the antibiotics for 10 days. You are doing very good, please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Now it will not change the bandage, just over a week to see what it looks the fracture. Today it was must change the bandage because the vet wanted to see what the wound looks like and if are sign of infections and bring it to healing powder. Now I will go only for the antibiotic and of course that I will keep you updated.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, OK...sounds good. The breaks should stay wrapped for about three weeks total, but perhaps Pidgey can confirm how long the breaks should be immobilized and wrapped for.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I want to ask for your advice, I saw that Kimy does not wants to eat wheat and corn at all. He wants to eat only bread and rice. I do not know if I can only give him only rice and bread all the time. Maby is not used to with wheat and corn, definitely is not a bird that came to my window. It is ok if I prepare the corn recipe that you give me for Robin? I do not know how to teach him to eat wheat and corn...
By the way, you're right, Kimy is male, today has ruffled to my hand and started to attack me and is feeling much better.


Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, you are right bread and rice alone is not a good diet, and to tell you the truth, just wheat and corn are not so good alone as well. I am not sure exactly what is available in Romania, but you can definitely add small lentils (brown, yellow and red ones), like in this link http://www.squidoo.com/lentils-nutritional-information to the mix you feed you him, you can also add dried split yellow peas and dried split green peas, mung beans, plus you can also add barley and seeds, like safflower, buckwheat and red or while milo seeds, if if you can find some there. Mix these all together and feed him this mix and see how it goes. This mix would also be good for Piu and friend. But it is also important that he eat so keep a good eye on him and make sure he is eating, you could also make up the corn bread for him as well as a treat.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok i understand, I even have lentils in the house, I will give him right now. I already tried sunflower seeds but does not want. I think he wants to eat only what is common on the street. Believe me I tried to give all types of seeds to Piu, he wants to eat only corn and peas, but peas he prefer only fresh in the sheath, not another form. Piu's friend I noticed that he/she only choose wheat grains and bread. Tomorrow I'll try to put them some lentils maby they like.
Kimy not eat too much, a little nibble on bread and rice. I'll cook corn bread tomorrow, maybe it likes.
Thanks Karyn!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I just want to tell you that Kimy is doing very well. I bought almost all the seeds you've mentioned but he still prefers rice and bread and do not want to eat something new. Sunday I will finish 10 days of the antibiotic and monday I will go to the vet to see him.
Karyn, thank you for everything, you're a wonderful person and I wish you a Merry Christmas!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, glad to hear Kimy is doing well. Please keep trying to offer him the other foods, as well as the bread and rice, as he just may start to try eating different seeds from the mix, you never know. Thanks for all you do for the sick and injured birds in your area of the world and you have a very Merry Christmas too.

Karyn

PS: Please keep us updated on your visit to the vet on Monday.


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, now we come to the vet.Kimy it's all right, wing heal well, there are no signs of infection and the leg too. I do not really like the way the vet put the bandage today. I find it pretty closely and I think it bothers him too. I do not know what to do, to try to loosen the bandage and to put it again? It should stay about two weeks until I'll go back to the vet.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Now it looks in this way. I put a little white plastic because I can see that Kimy pulls, wants to remove the bandage with beak.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Before the bandage was placed so you can see in the picture. He could sit comfortably and bend the wing. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, by looking at the new photo and looking at the old photo, you are right, it looks like he was more comfortable the way the wing was wrapped before. Check with the vet about doing a re-wrap of the wing, but there may be a reason he wrapped this way, perhaps not to lock the wing in one position, but now to extend it a bit, to help with later mobility, just ask. Also, trim any bandage threads that he picks loose right away with small scissors, as these can wrap around his beak/cere (nostrils) and cause damage. Glad to hear outside of this, that Kimy is healing well. Please report what the vet says.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

Cardboard boxes... the workhorse of the (pigeon) rehabber! Whatever would we do without cardboard boxes?

I concur with Karyn that extension of the wing can be a good idea at this point. How long has it been now?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Hmm... I see that all of this started on the 16th of December, or thereabouts. That said, it's been about 10 or 11 days now. They usually are fairly well on their way to healing broken bones by that time. When unwrapped, the bones aren't loose like they were, are they? If not, it's possible to keep the bird unwrapped in a low box that he or she can't flap in or (attempt to) fly out of. That way, he or she can start doing their little pijji stretches when he or she wants to start working that wing. If the wing isn't really floppy anymore, I'd consider doing that.

And the leg, by the way--I'd check it, too.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I went back to the vet again and changed his bandage. Now is look much better. I could not let him in that way because he pulled the bandage with the beak and he plucked flakes. I do not understand exactly what Pidgey says, it's better not to put him the bandage. The wound was closed completely and looks good, is not inflamed.
Or is it better to hold it a week or two wrapped and then to let the wing free?

Dana


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## Pidgey

I was just asking you if the wing feels loose and floppy when you have the bandages off (in order to rebandage them)? If the wing feels somewhat normal, then it's possible to give the bird some time with the bandages off in a box that is small enough to restrict movement so that the bird can do a little of his or her own physical therapy. If the bird can be allowed to do that, the wing can both heal faster and more correctly. The only concern is that the bird not be allowed to fly or flop around in fear and do more damage.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Pidgey, yes the wing feels floppy when I removed the bandage. And there's another issue, it is a bird very agitated, especially when I have to put my hand on it, he hit me with the wing. And I am afraid that if I would take off the bandage he will scratch the wound with the beak and do more damage. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, what I think what Pidgey has in mind is to keep the wing bandaged until the wing is stabilized, healed enough, and is no longer loose/floppy, and then confine Kimy to a smaller box where he will have enough room to do wing stretches, but not enough room to want to try and flap the wing(s), where this flapping may cause the healing to be come undone. Doing this may result in a better healing for him in allowing him to do his own therapy to the wing, by these stretches, the danger, as mentioned, is not giving him enough room to re-injure the wing through flapping. Since you say it is still floppy, we have a number of days to go yet before the bandage may be left off, please work with Pidgey on the timing and the best size box/cage for him to continue his healing.

I see at the bottom of the blue vet-wrap some gauze wrapping, Kimy will pick at this, so it's best not to have any gauze at all showing, as again as mentioned, they can pull this out enough to get their cere wrapped in it and it can cause their beak area damage, best to always trim any gauze showing with small scissors.

Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I see in the coming weeks as healing goes. When the wing is no longer a floppy/loose I will take off the bandage and I will put Kimy in a smaller box.
For now I am happy that the healing goes very well. When I found Kimy, the wound looks very bad, now is a miracle that healed so beautifully.
Keep you updated.

Thank you!
Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, I want to ask if it's good to give Kimy mineral, calcium. I have a box of minerals for parrots, which I gave to Piu. May affect fracture healing, that calcium is possibile to deposited in bones and joints more? I asked the vet but does not know for sure. I never gave up until now, but I think that maybe his body needs minerals.
And I have to tell you that last night I heard the dogs barking at a car which was parking near my building, I thought maybe under the car is a baby cat and dogs can kill her. I saw that the dogs did not stop to barking and I asked my husband to go down and see what is it under the car and he found another pigeon. I saw he had a large bump in the wing. I was lucky that the vet's office was still open, he gave him antibiotics and cleared of pus the wing. I gave him to eat and ate a lot,was very hungry.
I will make some foto to see how it looks the wing.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

The vet gave me iodine, told me to give it twice daily to the wound. What could cause this inflammation?
However, dogs have done a great job last night, saved the life of this bird.
Sure would have died overnight outside, or he would have caught by a cat or had died of cold. Last night was very cold outside -20 ºC /-4 ºF, and great snow.
Besides the wing injury, the bird seems healthy, eating and the droppings look well.

Dana


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## Pidgey

It's probably bacterial (septic arthritis)--there's likely some colony of bad bacteria in the actual joint somewhere. Sometimes we call those "paratyphoid boils" due to it being common for them to be caused by Salmonellosis, but they can be due to E. coli, some streptococcus and other such things. Sometimes Baytril works, sometimes Doxycycline, sometimes a Penicillin... you just never know which is going to do it so you try them one at a time.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

The vet give me Baytril for 7 days. Do you know if should heal quickly this type of infection and the bird can fly again? If I do not see any improvement in a few days you think it is better to change the antibiotic?
Thank you Pidgey!

Dana


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## Pidgey

Well, frankly, these things are tougher to heal than most. That is, it's easy enough to save the bird, much more difficult to get them back flying as though nothing was wrong. Judging by the way he's standing, I'd say he's also got things going on inside that are making him not feel very well, too. But, to answer your question, we'd often see keeping them on Baytril for nearly a month and then moving on to a different medication. If the actual bones in the wrist joint there (that's what that particular joint would be equivalent to in us) are getting enlarged, then you'd probably need to go with an antibiotic that works well for osteomyelitis (infections in bones). In the past, that has been Clindamycin but we've seen a few problems with that in some birds in some places. That said, let's go with the Baytril for the week and keep a close watch on how he gets on.

What's really interesting to me is that I've got a bird that I've had for several years that is almost identical in coloring to your bird that had virtually the exact same condition. I found him under an underpass as a squeaker with a burst boil on that very same joint. He's never been able to fly well and has spent most of his life on the floor of my loft.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Ok I understand, maybe it will go well with Baytril, will see...
Thank you!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I think the word is getting out that you are the person to find if a pigeon needs help in your area . Pidgey has covered the issues well and I don't have much to add. Keep her (I am guessing it may be a girl from her look) on the Baytril for at least 7 days and it could take a number of more weeks, as Pidgey mentions, on antibiotics to clear the infection. Please keep us updated. Good going.

Also, could you please post up a photo of your new bird's droppings, it might be good to have a look to see what's going on with them.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Well, Karyn, they are very lucky birds because arrive in my hand. The first time in my life happened to help a wounded bird was with Robin, and since then seems that never stops to find injured birds, but it's nice when you know that you saved the life of birds.
Both birds are fine, tomorrow I have to go to the vet with the new bird. I'll spend a special New Year with two birds home!
I wish you a happy new year to all!!!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, when you go to the vet tomorrow see if you ca get him to give/prescribe you some Metronidazole, if you have this med, and Baytril around, you will be able to treat very many common infections that wild pigeons become ill with. Also, there is a chance that your new bird may need treatment with this med, as well as the Baytril, so best to have some at your home. Happy New Year to you as well, and don't forget a photo of the new bird's droppings.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I have this medicine Metronidazole at home, in the form of pills, you see in the picture. II give metronidazole and baytril, both? If it is good this type of Metronidazole, just tell me in how many parts to break the pill. If this is not good I will ask the vet tomorrow, but I want to not bother him and upset me because I suggest this....I don't know.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, the Metronidazole you have is exactly right med I mentioned, and with a clearly stated dose on the packaging, which is good. Sometimes, a sick bird can have a few issues going on with them at the same time, which is the reason why I asked you to post a photo of your new bird's droppings, as many times, based on how they look, we can kind of determine a number of possible problems. Your new bird's droppings don't look too bad, so for now just give the Baytril as you are doing. Also, there are times that Metronidazole is given not only to treat canker, but to treat tissue infections where there are a type of bacteria called anaerobes involved, so it's good to know you do have this medicine on hand, just in case, as well.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand, glad to hear that the dropping don't look to bad, maby he have chances to get well. By the way, it is a male...I would have liked to be female, but I am lucky to find only males.
Piu's friend for five days did not come to eat, I fear that something bad has happened because until now he/she not missed any days. Piu comes every day to eat, but without her.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, with Piu's friend, sometimes they will do this, not come for a while and then just show up one day, but if she has been coming everyday with Piu, then suddenly stopped, I can see how this would be concerning. It would not hurt to have a look around your neighborhood to see if you see her, or watch where Piu goes after he eats, he may give you a clue. I do hope she shows up again before too long.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

After he eats Piu goes very very far away, many times I look after him and fly very far. Piu comes only once a day before it was dark outside , just for eat, during the day does not see him around. But Piu's friend came several times to eat, not only once and I saw her all the time in the area. That's why I think that Piu chose another flock, not the flock who live near my building.
I looked already in the area and not see her at all but I still hope to return.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, there is a small clue in what Piu does. If Piu's friend became Piu's mate she would follow him out of the area to his new flock. He might return for a short time late each day, out of routine/habit, and she may be choosing not to right now. Let's keep our fingers crossed that she is well and you will see her again.

Happy New Year.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I went to the vet today, everything is going well. He said that the inflamation on wing is lower. He prescribed an anti-inflammatory gel (Diclofenac), to grease him the wing. Let's hope he has luck and recover soon. 
Kimy, also feels good. Wednesday I go back to the vet with both birds. The vet said to give him an antibiotic just one week, I do not know what to do, we must say to give him more time than a week?

Thank you Karyn and I wish to you very Happy New Year!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> The vet said to give him an antibiotic just one week, I do not know what to do, we must say to give him more time than a week?
> 
> Dana


Dana, my recommendation would be to keep your new bird (you need to think of a name for him ) on the Baytril for a full two weeks and reassess his condition then. It sometimes can take a number of weeks on antibiotics to clear some types of infections and to give him his best chance at recovery, the infection really needs to be fully cleared. Glad to hear the inflammation has been reduced and Kimy feels good as well.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I think that I will call my new bird Big, that is very high/huge compared with Kimy, it is a very strong bird and is not like other feral pigeons, is very different.
Yes, wednesday I will tell the vet to give me antibiotics for another week.
I'll keep you informed.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I am so happy because Piu's friend finally came today. The biggest surprise was that they started to fight, and certainly now I know that Piu's friend is not a female. Maybe that was the reason why he did not come, maby can they communicate and Piu not want him here at all. I do not know how to interpret their behavior, because I do not know what rules they have and how they communicate . Finally I gave them to eat separately, first eat Piu and after Piu left, he came to eat. I'm thinking, why until now Piu accepted, is possibil because when he came firt time to eat with Piu, this bird, was young bird who just learning to fly and Piu accepted it. Then a week later, I saw that his beak does not close well and has something stuck near its mouth and after I treated him, always came to eat with Piu and never fight.
Today, Big flew out of the box on the floor and flew up on the table. Inflammation is reduced as more and more and I can see that Big each day feeling much, much better.
Tomorrow I'll take fresh pictures to show you what it looks now the inflamation of the wing.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am glad to hear that Piu's friend has started showing back up again, I was hoping this would be what would happen. Piu's friend may be a male, but also could still be a female, as sometimes males and females can have interactions that look like fights, but is just the male exerting his dominant status in the starting relationship, some more time will tell whether this is the case or not with them. Glad to hear Big is doing better, don't rush him and I will wait to see your new photos.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I do not rush him, I let him do what he wants, he stays in the open box and he can try to fly when he wants, yesterday came out of the box and inspected the house. Big it is a great pigeon, I have not seen until now a bird so smart, intelligent like him. Big It is a bird that impressed me so much!

You can see the difference between the first pictures with Big and this last pictures, the wing is almost the same as the other. Maybe he was bitten by a cat, and then made infection...I don't know what it was, but his wing heal quickly and well.
And some pictures of my two boys 

Dana


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## Vulturescu

See the difference between them, Big is a different bird, not like a feral pigeon.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, you are right the wing is looking much better, but please do keep him on the antibiotics for at least a full two weeks. I am glad you are letting him set the pace for what he wants to do and like Piu before, we want to really make sure he is truly ready, wing completely healed - flying very well - before returning him to the flock.

Sometimes different types of homer and racing pigeons become wild and mix in with feral pigeons and you get some interesting resulting mixes, don't know enough to say for sure, but this could be a reason Big does not look like many of the other ferals you are used to seeing in you flock. 

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I just got home, I went to the vet with both birds. Kimy is good, the leg looking good and he left without bandage. Tomorrow I will make some new pictures with his leg. The wing is looking good too, he has put a lighter bandage, advises me not to leave him without wing patch because is very fragile the place where the fracture was, and can quickly break again. Kimy is very restless and is always trying to escape from the box or flapping the wing. I put him in a smaller box and is more nervous.

With Big things are very good, the inflammation has completely disappeared. I told to the vet to give me another week of antibiotics and said it was too much longer another week and if I insist I can give him another two days of antibiotics, to make ten days.
If you think that Big really need another week of antibiotics, I can search for a veterinary pharmacy and buy Baytril.
Anyway I think to keep him at home at least two weeks and I see how he feels and when he wants to leave. Yesterday he flew through the house, he fly pretty well. Big impresses me very much that he came out of its box, walking through the house and fly, and then get one in the box. Yesterday he took a bath, I went to the bathroom with him and I filled a basin with water. He took a bath like a duck and was very happy.... is an amazing bird and very lucky one!

And let you know that if you want to remember Piu, I put an album with him on my public profile.

Thank you Karyn!

Dana


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## Pidgey

Seeing as how the inflammation went down so quickly and doesn't appear to be "in" the joint, I'd probably go ahead and stop the medication at this point and keep him under observation for another couple of weeks to see how he gets on as well as paying very close attention to that joint throughout the period.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Thanks Pidgey. Dana, as Pidgey says, Big can now come off the antibiotics with the provision that you keep a close eye on the wing that it continues to do well and no swelling starts to return, glad he likes his bath. I also think it's a good idea to keep him for at least a few more weeks for him to gain strength and to monitor the wing for any return of infection. With Kimy, I think it's a good idea to follow the vets advice, as he is there and can see exactly what is happening with Kimy's wing, and continue for a while yet with a lighter wrap to support the broken wing while it continues to heal and strengthen, a smaller box is a good idea as well for now, just make sure he has enough room to stretch, but not flap his wings.

I really enjoyed looking at all the photos of Piu again, he has come such a long way and you did such a a good job with him, they are all lucky birds to have found you.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thanks Karyn and thanks Pidgey, well, then I will stop the antibiotics for Big and of course that I will keep a close eye on the wing. I am so happy that things went well for him.
Continue to keep you informed Karyn.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Some pictures with Kimy's leg, now he can step on it easily.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Kimy's leg looks like it has healed very well, let's hope we get such a good result with his wing.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I hope with all my heart the wing to heal well as his leg and may have chance to fly again. The vet told me that he want to see Kimy next week, next friday and if the wing it looks good, will take off the bandage.
Glad to hear that you like to see Piu's album! Still came to eat every day but not eat with his friend, I give them to eat separately. Still not sure if Piu's friend is a female or a male.....will see in time.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I have a friend who a few days ago he found a pigeon. He went to verterinar with him and the bird have paramixoviroza / PMV. The problem is that my friend can no longer take home this bird, because she has two cats and children and a husband who does not like birds. He fears that this disease can transmit it to children, to other animals....now she (my friend Corina) looking for someone to take this bird. 
I would like to help her with all my heart and take the bird in my home but the problem is that I have this two guys Big and Kimy. I do not know if this disease is transmitted very quickly between birds. Do you think there is any danger for my birds if I take home this bird with pmv. 
I do not know what to do, I desperately looking to find someone who could take this bird home but nobody wants. Everyone is afraid of this virus. I've been looking for information on PMV and I know that is not dangerous for humans. I want to know if it is dangerous for Big and Kimy? If there is no problem, tomorrow I will tell to Corina to bring me the pigeon. I'm afraid that she can not find anyone to take the bird, give him a way out.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I would not feel comfortable advising you to bring a pigeon with PPMV into your place where you caring for Kimy and Big right now, if another solution could be found. There are a few people on the forum with a good deal of experience with this infection and I will PM one for an opinion. I can tell you that this infection is pigeon specific, meaning that it is of no danger to humans, as we can not catch this infection, but depending on what variant it is of PMV, there is a chance that birds, other than pigeons, could be infected. If your friend could keep the bird for a 5-6 weeks, I would feel much better about you trying to help this bird with having other birds in your care, as my understanding is that after this period of time, they stop shedding the virus and do not pose the same risk of infecting other pigeons. There is also the possibility that it may not be PPMV, but the neurological form of paratyphoid, that has symptoms sometimes similar to PPMV, which is treatable with 2 weeks of treatment with Baytril, who diagnosed that this bird has PPMV.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I try to find a solution, maby I will find someone to keep him. No, my friend can not in any way to keep it. He took the bird to a veterinary clinic and there they put this diagnosis PMV.
Thanks Karyn!

Dana


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## Feefo

Hi Dana,

If you took the pigeon with PMV in, would it be possible to keep it in a separate room from the others?

PMV is usually is spread by direct contact between birds, from contact with the secretions and excretions of sick birds (poops and sneezes) , via humans (on hands, shoes, headgear, overalls) and contaminated objects such as travelling baskets. It can also be carried through the air in fecal dust.

We had to take in three pigeons with PPMV when we had other sick pigeons in the house, we kept them in a separate room and were very careful about not transferring poops or dusts from the pigeons in our "isolation room" (which happened to be the living room) to the "hospital" which happened to be the bedroom.  None of the other birds became infected.

A bathroom with a tiled or lino floor makes a good PMV isolation room as dust can't settle in the carpets.


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## Dobato

Dana, Feefo (Cynthia) is the member I mentioned I would PM who has a good deal of experience with PPMV. If no other options are available, it seems with isolation and good hygienic practices, the risk of making other birds ill can greatly reduced. Please keep us updated on what is going to happen with this bird and we can help with more suggestions for its care.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thank you so much Karyn and Cynthia but I finally found someone to take care of this poor bird. I struggled all day yesterday to find someone to keep the pigeons. It was difficult to find someone for this bird because must be fed by hand and it is difficult for a person who has not had to do with birds. I'll help her with other suggestions and advice and I will update you.
Cynthia, yesterday all day I thought about this option, to keep him in a room separate from other birds, but do not know for sure if this virus can be transmitted by air.

Thank you so much!
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am glad to hear you managed to find someone to help you out with this poor bird. If it's of any help, please mention to the person you found to help with this bird's care, if they can't manage, you should be able to take over the care in the near future, if needed, once the bird is no longer a risk for infecting other birds. PPMV birds sometimes need a good deal of support for a while and have special needs, so if you have any questions regarding help with looking after this bird, please let us know.

Karyn


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## Feefo

Thank you for finding someone to care for the bird. I understand how you feel, when you have a bird that is a pet then you take extra care.

Just to clarify, in a pigeon loft where PMV is allowed to progress unchecked ,30% to 70% of the birds will get infected (Vindevogel and Duchatel. 1985) and even in those conditions infection spreads slowly. So the risk of infection from an isolated bird is not as high as is often suggested. In my opinion the risk of carrying infection from a feral flock into your home on your shoes is a lot higher. However, in the same situation I would have chosen the same option as you have because I would be forever worrying about whether I had taken sufficient precautions between handling an infected bird and handling my pets.

The main danger of PMV is that a bird will shed the virus before showing any symptoms which is why it is so imporatant to isolate all new rescues for an adequate period. We have had 4 rescues begin to show PMV symptoms during a 2 week isolaton period, none after that period, but if we have to take in new rescues now, I will extend the isolation.


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## Vulturescu

Ok Cynthia, thanks for the good information, now I understand and I'm glad to know everything about this disease, never know when I'll find a bird with the disease. I also read your article about the PMV, is very useful and very important to know. 
Anyway for the moment the bird is in good hands.
I want to know how long take to heal PMV and when it becomes certain that bird is no longer a risk for infecting other birds?

Thank you!
Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I saw that Big begin to leave many flakes, shed, it feels warm in the house and probably why shed. I don't know if it's a good thing because it is winter and cold outside. I think about when I'll release him if will be fine. 
For the moment, Big,is doing very well in the house, the wing is very well and flying without problems. Kimy is also very good, friday I'll go to the vet to see him.

Thanks for everything!
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, them leaving flakes from grooming (preening) is pretty normal and because of the injury he may be spending a bit more time preening himself to get his feathers back in good shape. Glad to hear he is starting to fly very well again, please update after the vet visit.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## Feefo

Hi Dana,

Pigeons only shed the virus for 6 weeks but it can persist on the feathers for longer than that (it will get on the feathers when they preen and when feathers are contaminated with poop) . 

Although they can start shedding the virus before they show symptoms I start counting from the time that they first show symptoms of PMV and isolate for at least 8 weeks, giving them plenty of opportunity to bathe during that time. Then they go in the aviary with my other birds, I haven't vaccinated my pigeons as they are in a covered aviay and in 10 years none of the healthy ones have become infected by a survivor (or ny any other means)..and there are more that 30 PMV survivors in my aviary!

Cynthia


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## Vulturescu

Thanks for answer Cynthia, until now I knew nothing of this disease and I'm glad to hear everything.
I am a person who rescues feral pigeons, I don't have my pet, now I have two injury pigeons in my home, that why I was afraid to take this bird with PMV at home. However the bird is in good hands and I give all the help to the person who caring for him.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, yesterday I went to the vet with both birds. Everything goes well with Kimy, the wing is healing great and the vet does’t put the bandage again. He also told me that I can release Big because the wing heal well and is able to fly very very good. Is well to take advantage of good weather(for now the days are very sunny and warm) because in a week comes another wave of cold and snow.
I put some pictures of Kimy's wing.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

I also put on my public profile an album with Big because here is no place to put so many pictures.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am so glad you seem to have found a helpful and competent vet in your area, this is not always an easy thing to do. Big looks like he has healed up very well, his wings are in good position and between him healing well, flying very well and the vet saying he is ready, I see no reason not to return him, if the weather is good. When you do this, if haven't already, place some food on the ground in you garden area, so that some of the other pigeons will come and feed, and then release him in with them. Also good to hear Kimy is making steady progress, please keep us updated on how things continue to go with them.

Very good job,


Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, we released Big today, was a beautiful, warm and sunny day. After about two hours, I saw Big with the flock (and I was very very happy), on the other side of the block, in the car parking, exactly where I found him in that night. I threw seeds and bread and he eat together with all the birds, I watched until they have finished eating the food and he flew with all the flock together. My apartment has the south side, which you always see in the pictures and a north side, where is the car parking and where I have three bedrooms. So, in this side there are many more pigeons that I feed them all, every day, and he is definitely a bird that use to eat there before. However, he will certainly come in every day to eat and I will always see him. It was beautiful but sad to give him way ...was a very lucky bird!
And aboute my vet, yes it seems to be a very good vet and I was lucky to find him or my birds have been lucky to find this vet.

Thanks Karyn!
Dana


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## TAWhatley

What a happy ending, Dana! Bless you for all you did for Big!

Terry


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## Vulturescu

Thank you, Terry!


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## Dobato

Dana, I guess the feelings certainly can be bitter sweet when you are sending them back to the wild, you felt this once before with with Piu, so I know you know what I mean. I am glad you will be able to offer Big support with food and be able to keep an eye on him, since he is part of the back lot flock. You did a great job with Big, now we just need to hopefully get Kimy to the point he can be returned back as well.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, today I managed to make some pictures of the back lot flock and you can see Big among birds, it is easy to recognize him. 
Yes it is wonderful feeling when you sending back to the wild a bird you've saved his life.....no matter the money, no matter the time you spend for take care of a bird...for me the satisfaction that you saved a life it is a feeling that I can not describe in words and I really feel attached to each bird that I save.
I think that with Kimy we will have the same happy ending, I really think that!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I know sometimes when people start to feed pigeons around their apartment it can annoy the neighbors, this may not be an issue with you and you want to do your best to avoid it being one, as not all people feel so kindly to pigeons as we all do and we don't them to do anything out of frustration. 

I would recommend that you only feed them once a day in the morning, very early if you can, as if you feed them a few times through the day pigeons tend to hang around waiting for the next feeding, which can be annoying the neighbors and pigeons have a way of telling friends so you may start out feeding 5-10 birds and in a few months end up with dozens. When you feed them early in the morning and they know nothing else is coming, it helps to motivate them to go to other places to explore looking for food and just not congregate at your building.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thank you Karyn for this information, before Piu I used to feed them several times a day and it happened as you said, but now I only feed them once in the morning, because Piu comes before night to eat. The same thing with the back lot flock, I feed them only once in the morning when I leave my daughter at school.
Do you know how many years living a feral pigeon?
This morning I caught in the picture better Big, is doing very well and fly without problems, I saw where he sleeps in my building under the roof. 
Thank you, Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, thanks for the photos, Big looks like he is doing well. I want to be clear, that the suggestions I made on feeding were meant for your back lot flock and not for Pui, who comes to your window to feed late each day. You should continue on as regular with him, as your apartment is "home" for him, and I know he holds such a special place in your heart.

Generally speaking, the life expectancy of a "feral" pigeon is somewhere between 3-5 years. However, I would expect feral pigeons in "better" living situations, where they have safer surroundings, not a lot of predators around - both flying and on the ground -, and some local support, from kind souls like yourself, to perhaps exceed these estimates on a regular basis. Pigeons that live with us and are well cared for can live 2-3 times longer, with some even living 4-5 times as long as a feral.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, thank you so much for the information and don't worry, I understood perfectly what you have suggested.
Keep you updated with Kimy.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn,
I was at the vet today with Kimy. Everything is fine, Kimy began to fly around the house and fly pretty well. Anyway my vet suggested that is better to hold Kimy all month February, maybe we will release him in March when spring begins.... if things go well.
Big is doing well, I see him every day when it comes to eat. Since Big left, Kimy is very nervous and agitated all day and looking for a way to escape.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am pleased to hear that Kimy's wing has healed well enough that he can once more use it to fly, even if his flight is is not strong yet, this is very good news to hear about a wing that was broken. I think it also is a good idea to keep him until March to allow him time to fully develop his wing back into good flying condition, as it is very important that he be flying very well to be returned to the wild. It must make you feel good to see Big every day and know without your help he would most likely not be with us today, the flock is lucky to have you looking out for them. When you get a chance, please post up a photo of how Kimy's wing now looks.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I took some new pictures with Kimy’s wing and also you can see the leg.
Indeed, Karyn, I am filled with joy when I see every day Big happy and healthy. It was a very, very lucky bird, and always I think at that night we’ve found him. Dogs never stop barking at the car and made me understand that there is something under that car. (In our city there are many dogs and cats who living on the street. People do not allow the dog catcher to grab them and take them to shelters, because they love very much this animals and feed them; people start a big war if someone try to takes this animals near the blocks). That’s why I will never forget that miracle night, the dogs have saved Big’s life !

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, you and your vet have done such a good job for Kimy, he looks really good for all that he has been through. Really all that you can do now is allow him flying time for him to do his own physio and rehabilitation on the wing, and a good amount of extra time with you (which you are already doing) for him to gain strength and better use of the wing.

Very good work,

Karyn


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## Pidgey

Actually, to me he looks like he might have some real problems facing him--he looks kinda' like he's gotten a bit spoiled...

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Pidgey, why do you think he looks a little bit spoiled and what would be a problem if it is spoiled?

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Pidgey was just making a joke that might have gotten a little lost in translation , I think he is also saying Kimy is lucky to have you looking after him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

O....Ok I understand ....I thought that he might be a joke but he said it so seriously.
Today I am a little upset. I have a pair of turtledoves that I feed them at my window from seven years, one of them died this night, I think the male. In the morning I saw his body in the garden.
I do not know much about the turtledoves and I wonder if that the one who remain live without her mate. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am sorry to hear you lost one of the little ones you have been looking after for so many years. I don't have a lot of experience with Doves, so I PMed another member who said the remaining female may find another mate in time. She should still follow her routine and I imagine she will still come to be feed by you, the other member also mentioned that by living 7 years in in the wild, while his passing is sad, he did not do too bad at all.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thank you very much Karyn, the dove he came to eat as usual, comes with Piu before dark and he came one time in the morning with Piu's friend. Piu always left them with him to eat from the bowl, perhaps because when he was small Piu see them every day at the window eating and he increased along with them. This fall they had three beautiful children, I just feel so bad that he died. I think he lived for many years because they were very well fed, not missing any days from the food.
To tell you the truth, only now I really understood what he meant Pidgey about Kimy that is spoiled. My English has some good gaps!

I apologize for my mistake Pidgey and thank you for what you said. Of course that Kimy it spoils, it is very spoiled and I think well deserved, he had enough bad luck this little angel.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I do not know if Kimy it's from the flock near my building. I found him a few blocks away from my building. I wonder when the time comes to release him, Kimy will coming back to my window? Do you think we should do as we've done with Piu, that is good to keep him at the window more to memorize the place. I really would like him to return, knowing that he is well and more because we all very much attached to him.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I do not know if Kimy it's from the flock near my building. I found him a few blocks away from my building. I wonder when the time comes to release him, Kimy will coming back to my window? Do you think we should do as we've done with Piu, that is good to keep him at the window more to memorize the place. I really would like him to return, knowing that he is well and more because we all very much attached to him.
> 
> Dana


Yes, this would be a good idea, to start keep and feed him by the window to help familiarize him with your area, no harm in trying. There are no guarantees when released he will stay, as he should easily be able to return to his old place if it is just a few blocks away, if he wishes, but there is a chance he may stay, so you might as well try and see what happens later. Plus, he may associate your place with food and come each day, from a distance as Piu does, to eat then return to his flock.

Dana, I missed your other post. I am glad to hear that the mate came as usual today and it's nice to hear that they did have some beautiful children together. Your support of them, I believe, plays a big role in extending their lives in the wild. I mentioned this a little while ago, when you asked how long a feral pigeon lives in the wild, when I said with local support from kind souls like yourself, their lifespan should be greatly increased, as it has been shown with your little Doves. Dana your English is very good, much better, I am sure, than probably any of us here speaks Romanian. Sometimes, even with native speakers, small plays on words can be missed, and I am continually impressed by your level of understanding and just how well you do communicate in English.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

No need to worry about me, I knew you'd eventually understand--it was always a joke! I've spoiled... uhh... quite a few, actually. At least a dozen...

...or two...

Anyhow, best of luck to Kimy--you've done well!

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I’ll try to let him stay longer at the window. I don’t want him to sit at my window after being free, I just want to go there to eat and so to see him. I'm sure he’ll be back at his old place and also maybe he has a mate and miss her.
These days Kimy found his favorite place in the house so I moved the box and he sit there quietly all day. He wants to sit in front of the mirror and thinks there is another bird in the mirror. He begins to fight with him in the mirror and then he salt to the box and looked at him in the mirror. He really believes that there is another bird and is so sweet and funny.

In the years that I fed them I noticed that the doves don’t live like pigeons, are solitary. Only this pair sits in my block area. Every year they had children and I noticed that when the babys learn to fly they bring to my window to teach them to eat. When children are mature enough and can handle alone, then parents are beginning to displace them from the area and beat them away to get rid of them. And so they are always only this two doves in my area that’s why I asked if she would survive without her mate because they are always alone. None of the children who had not remained in the area where they are. I think this is their nature.

And thank you, Karyn, for compliments my english, you are very kind but I really wish to know more than that....but I'm very glad to hear that my english is good, however.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am glad you figured out a way to help Kimy settle down, now that he likes to see himself in the mirror and now has another "bird" to focus his attention on. Your observation on Doves are good ones and although Pigeons like to flock, they are the same with their children after they have raised them. Shortly after the young birds have been taught to eat, drink and fend for themselves, they become just another pigeon to their parents to compete with for food and the best perches and nesting areas and the parents no longer see them as their "children" any longer.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes, Kimy, is satisfied now because think has a "bird" next to him, only that he makes noise all day. Flies becoming better every day and it amazes me how well it can fly with a wing that was broken. Yesterday, he flew to the window and my husband went out on Kimy way, then Kimy stopped, stood in flight, thought about what to do and then returned to the place where it started. He did everything in flight, without having to sit on something.

Karyn, I must give you very good news, Piu decided not to go further and stay longer in my area. I noticed this for about a week, I watched him as usual and I saw that evening after eating he flies just above the place where they eat at my window up under the roof of the building and early in the morning is at my window to eat again. So, now Piu came two times to eat, I see him during the day that pass to my window many times and I don’t know what made him not to leave…..imagine how happy I am. 
Maybe something bad happened to the place that choose him until now and that determined him to return. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, it's very encouraging to hear about the solid progress that Kimy is making with regaining the use of his broken wing, the exercising will really help with this a great deal.

It's hard to say why Pui has decided to spend more time at your place, perhaps he just feels like letting you spoil him a little extra for a while , I know how special he is to you, so I am happy you are getting to see him a little more each day.

Karyn


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## Pidgey

Probably don't want to let Kimy go until that wing looks completely normal, regardless of how well he can fly. That means when you can't tell the difference between the feathers on the bad wing from the feathers on the good wing.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Do not worry Pidgey, when the time comes to release him I will consult with you and Karyn before to release into the wild.
I will not release Kimy until we are hundred percent sure that he is completely healed. 
My vet want seeing him at the end at february, so, we still have another month before we talk about release Kimy.

Thanks!
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, Pidgey,
first I have to tell you that Kimy is doing very, very well and fly perfectly. Now we expected the feathers be equal on both wings, then will be ready for another chance at life in the wild, maybe in one week or two.
Big is also very well, I see him every day when I give him food and is a very healthy and happy bird.

Now I have a problem with one of my bird, Karyn, I think you remember Robin's mate, his name is Vulturescu (in my language Vulturescu means Eagle), he found another mate and this fall they had together two very beautiful babys. Well, he comes from time to time to eat at my window and yesterday I noticed that there is something wrong with him. 
It's sad, shriveling, has a moist eye who it often closes. I've known Vulturescu for almost 5 years and I have not seen him before in this bad state. Usually he is a bird very energetic and active. I got him very easy, he ate well and now sits quietly in the box. I do not know what to do with him and what medication to give him, I looked into his mouth and seems irritated throat on the right side. 
My vet is out of the country and he returns over 10 days. I'll send you some pictures of him and droppings maby you can figure out what can be.

Thank you!
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

This is a picture of droppings overnight, first picture is with dropping by yesterday when I got him home.


----------



## Dobato

Dana, glad to hear Kimy is doing very well and is almost ready to return to the wild, and Big is continuing to do well, very good job. I am also glad to hear you were able to catch Vulturescu in order to help him. The first dropping is not the greatest, but they can do those kind of not so great looking droppings out of nervousness, once he settled down and got some food into him, the overnight ones look quite good. Do you still have any Baytril and Metronidazole on hand?

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I have only Metronidazole, 250 mg pills. Seems to me that would be the same signs I've seen on Robin, only that then with Robin I did not know it would be a disease signs. So now I understand quickly and I hurried to catch him.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I have only Metronidazole, 250 mg pills. Seems to me that would be the same signs I've seen on Robin, only that then with Robin I did not know it would be a disease signs. So now I understand quickly and I hurried to catch him.
> 
> Dana


Dana, with Robin's history with canker, I think it would be a good idea to start Vulturescu on the Metronidazole. What you need to do is to cut, with a razor, one of the 250mg pills into 4 pieces, this will be 62.5mg, and "pop" one of these pieces to the back of his mouth like in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow. Then I want you to cut the other 3 pieces in half again, 31.25mg, and "pop" one piece, once a day, for 6 more days. Also, because there are other kinds of infections that can affect the throat area, would it be possible for you to buy some Baytril or Trimethoprim/Sulfa antibiotic, or the human form, Ciprofloxacin or Bactrim/Septra, as I would prefer to give Vulturescu pretty broad coverage in treatment just in case it is bacterial and not canker, both meds can be given at the same time.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I already have at home ciprofloxacina, see in the picture what tipe is, and if it is ok just tell me what dose I must given him.
So, if I understand well first(just first day) I have to give him 62.5 mg metronidazole and after I must give 31.25 mg, once a day.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I already have at home ciprofloxacina, see in the picture what tipe is, and if it is ok just tell me what dose I must given him.
> So, if I understand well first(just first day) I have to give him 62.5 mg metronidazole and after I must give 31.25 mg, once a day.
> 
> Dana


Yes, you have the instructions exactly right for the Metronidazole. The ciprofloxacina is Cipro and is more or less the human equivalent of Baytril (Enrofloxacin), we just have to make it up into a form that you can give him. Do you still have any 1cc syringes on hand and pancake syrup, corn syrup or honey?

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes, I have honey of all the flowers and of acacia flowers.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

And the syringes, yes I kept some, I have a syringes.
If it is better Baytil, I can go to the vet clinic where my vet works, there are many other vets and I can buy some Baytril. But I can go later in evening because now I have a lot of work on the computer.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, the Cipro will be fine. Just take one of the 500mg pills and cut it in half. put 1/2 away, and crush the remaining 1/2 up into as fine a powder as you can, I use a shot-glass (for measuring alcohol) and the rounded end of one of my small kitchen knives to do this. When the 1/2 pill is ground up add 5mL of the honey to this and stir very well, you can use the 1cc syringe to the 1cc mark 5 times, or use a cooking teaspoon (this will be 5mL, do not use a common flatware teaspoon, must be a measuring teaspoon). When mixed let sit 20 minutes, stir very well again and take the 1cc syringe and draw a 0.10cc dose (5mg), this will be to the first line (about 2 drops) and give this to Vulturescu twice a day. Start treatment and let's see how he is doing in a week. 

Also, do you think you can catch his mate?..., the reason I ask is part of their courting and mating ritual is an act called "billing", this is where mated birds are into each others mouths and throats with their beaks and I think as a precaution we should treat her as well.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, thank you very much Karyn, so the syringe is that you see in the foto, and has a maximum of 1 ml. Is this ok?

With Vulturescu's mate, I don't know what to tell you....I will try to catch her, of course, but the problem is that she came to eat only together with him to my window, is not a bird who use to eat at my window before became Vulturescu's mate. I will try to catch her if I see her, today in the morning my husband saw her but quickly flew. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, thank you very much Karyn, so the syringe is that you see in the foto, and has a maximum of 1 ml. Is this ok?
> 
> With Vulturescu's mate, I don't know what to tell you....I will try to catch her, of course, but the problem is that she came to eat only together with him to my window, is not a bird who use to eat at my window before became Vulturescu's mate. I will try to catch her if I see her, today in the morning my husband saw her but quickly flew.
> 
> Dana


The syringe you show is fine, for your information 1cc = 1mL (equal measurement). Depending just how close she will come and how friendly she is, there may be another way to treat her without capturing her (best if you could capture, if possible) and that is to get a very small piece of very fresh bread (1/2"x1/2") and place a piece of the Metronidazole in it and roll it into a small ball. You would have other small non-medicated pieces of bread and start to toss/feed these to her, and when you feel she is eating the bread well and no other bird would get the medicated ball, you toss the ball to her to eat. She would get one medicated ball a day for the next week.

Good luck with her,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I prepared the medicine exactly as you said and just to be sure that I understood well, so, I must give him two times a day as much as I show you in the picture on the syringe, that mean 0.1.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I prepared the medicine exactly as you said and just to be sure that I understood well, so, I must give him two times a day as much as I show you in the picture on the syringe, that mean 0.1.
> 
> Dana


Yes, this is exactly right, as you show, every 12 hours.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, it is just perfect, thank you very, very much Karyn!
And aboute Vulturescu’s mate, it is a little bit wild because my window is not a familiar place for her. With Vulturescu it was easy to catch him because I catch him many times before, sometimes when my window is open Vulturescu enter inside the house ( he is the only pigeon that is not afraid to enter the house). He knows where to find seed bowl and when to leave the house sometimes he wrong way out. So I catch him and then I released him outside, that’s why yesterday it was very easy to catch him. Can you imagine that Piu, who was raised by me, raised in the house, would never get inside my home like Vulturescu.
I will try tomorrow to catch her, if i faild I will try with bread and a pice of metronidazole, just exactly as you said.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Can you imagine that Piu, who was raised by me, raised in the house, would never get inside my home like Vulturescu.
> I will try tomorrow to catch her, if i faild I will try with bread and a pice of metronidazole, just exactly as you said.
> 
> Dana


Yes, that's part of what makes them so interesting, they surprise you sometimes. 

With catching Vulturescu's mate, if you are not almost 100% sure you are going to catch her at anytime, please be patient and don't try until you are sure, try the bread method instead. If you miss her, and end up scaring her, she may not come close enough again to try the bread method on her.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

And by the way, I lost the other little dove who remained single. I think he died two weeks ago because she not appeared at all to eat. Unfortunately it was last year for my my beloved pair of doves.
Post you a new picture with Big, to see him how well is. I will make new pictures with Kimy, maby tomorrow, to see him.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> And by the way, I lost the other little dove who remained single. I think he died two weeks ago because she not appeared at all to eat. Unfortunately it was last year for my my beloved pair of doves.
> Post you a new picture with Big, to see him how well is. I will make new pictures with Kimy, maby tomorrow, to see him.
> 
> Dana


Dana, thanks for the pictures, Big looks very good. Without seeing a body it can not be said, with 100% certainty, that the female has died. If she did happen to find a new mate she would follow the male to areas he is familiar with, so this may be why you are not seeing her any longer.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Well, Karyn, I want it to be as you say that she find a new mate, but it is strange that he disappear suddenly and not see her at all in the area. All day used to sit in the tree in front of my block, there they always have the nest and always hear them "singing". Now there is no sign of my dove, I do not think she would have dropped food because she was crazy about corn and sunflower seeds. After all these years...... to leave so finally....maybe if still alive in one day will remember my window and the good food he likes so much.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, today Vulturescu's mate did not appear, today was a bad weather, very cold with blizzards, snow and maby for this did not appear. Only Piu with his friend (who is a male, I'm sure now), sometimes they come together to eat and sometimes they fight. I think Piu accepted this friend because he need someone to teach him, I notice that Piu always follows him.
I post you some new pictures with Kimy. Kimy is my crazy bird, make noise all day long, walks around the house, he learned that in the bathroom he has basin with water and go alone and take a bath when he wants. It's so cute when appears suddenly wet and salt above the radiator to dry. 
Is crazy about me, when he hear my voice begin to make noise. If I go out home is quiet but when I come back home and see me is start to be crazy. He follow me through the house and jumps on me all the time. Instead with my husband does not behave like that, flees when he sees my husband. 

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Kary, I find some old pictures with Vulturescu and I want to show you the difference between now and then when he was healthy bird. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Kimy looks really great !!! You have done just an outstanding job taking care of him. Seems like he has become use to being at your home now, plus it also seems he has taken a real liking to you. I know you are due to take him to the vet in the next little while for a final check-up/clearance, which I see no reason your vet will not give him. Once done, I myself would hold him just a bit longer to where there is a real break in the weather, so that you know spring is on the way. 

Those are very nice photos of Vulturescu, and based on the very nice droppings you showed he is doing and you catching him early in his illness, I see no reason, with treatment, that he should not once again return to his former self.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, until the weather improves, I do not think to release him in this cold. Honestly, It will be very difficult for me to let him go and I have tendency to delay this thing. When the weather is getting warm, then we'll release him.
When my vet returns I'll go to see him for the last time and before to release him I'll notice you.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, until the weather improves, I do not think to release him in this cold. Honestly, It will be very difficult for me to let him go and I have tendency to delay this thing. When the weather is getting warm, then we'll release him.
> Dana


Sounds good, this is what I would do as well .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, today Vulturescu feels much better, now when I want to catch him he struggles and reacts much better. When I got him, first 2 days he smelled very bad, today no longer feels that bad smell. Now it smells like a pigeon . However, it is a good change from the first day. The first two days he just sitting with eyes closed all day long and it was not interested in anything what is happening around. Today is aware of everything that happens in the house and has looked more alive.
With his mate, I don't have chances to catch her. Today she passed once, she drank water and flew fast, has not eaten anything. Behave differently without him, is very, very scared. I prepared a piece of Metronidazole in bread but I haven't had a chance to give her. I do not know how else I can do.
Anyway, she looks very good, no signs of illness. And if she will make the disease I'll see her and then it will be more easier to catch her, the disease makes her more vulnerable.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am very glad to hear that it sounds like Vulturescu is responding to treatment, just keep doing what you are doing. Maybe in one more day you can put Piu's bath dish out for him and see if he feels like he wants to bathe, you can also do the same for Kimy today, but do not let the two of them mix, as we are not sure what is wrong with Vulturescu and Kimy is healthy, except for his wing.

With Vulturescu's mate, all you can do is try your best, I am glad to hear she seems healthy. The reason I am suggesting treating her is on the chance she does have some of the organisms that cause canker, but her immune system is stronger and is just able to keep it under control. Where as if we get Vulturescu healthy again, my preference would be to eliminate the possibility, if we can, of him becoming reinfected from her. This may not be the case at all and she may be free of anything she could pass on to him, but the treatment is safe and effective and if she could be treated, since he is her mate and he is ill, I thought we should try.

I don't know if you can arrange it, but if there was a way she could see Vulturescu inside you home, maybe you could place him by the window she comes to, it may relax her a bit to see he is all right. Continue with the food and water for her and we'll see what happens, you may get your chance yet.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

I'll try tomorrow when she cames to show Vulturescu hert hrough the window. Will see how she will reacts. I'll do my best to catch her, especially that I am home all day tomorrow.

Thank you, Karyn!
Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I'll try tomorrow when she cames to show Vulturescu hert hrough the window. Will see how she will reacts. I'll do my best to catch her, especially that I am home all day tomorrow.
> 
> Thank you, Karyn!
> Dana


Remember, be real sure, as we don't want to frighten her, if you miss, and scare her away.

Good luck,

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I'm thinking if is better to put some Apple Cider Vinegar in the water. I read that Apple Cider Vinegar can help in canker disease and I'm thinking about this option because when she came to my window she always drink water. Do you think there is another option to put another medicine in water?

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I'm thinking if is better to put some Apple Cider Vinegar in the water. I read that Apple Cider Vinegar can help in canker disease and I'm thinking about this option because when she came to my window she always drink water. Do you think there is another option to put another medicine in water?
> 
> Dana


If you think she reliably comes to drink water then there is a liquid form of Metronidazole you can get to treat her water with. A few companies make it and the strength is usually between 200-250mg/5mL. I am not sure in your country, but in some European counties, you don't need a prescription for many meds. However, if you do need a prescription, perhaps your vet can help you or even provide you with some. We can not use the pills for this as they do not dissolve into water well at all.

The ACV you speak of is quite good helping to keep a bird healthy, but once they are infected, in my opinion, ACV will not clear an active infection, whether bacterial or protozoal (canker). I would not mind you picking some up though, as with Vulturescu, I think because you mention an odor from him, these smells sometimes come from their crop, and ACV will help in clearing this up. You would have to get an organic one with "live mother wort", as this is the kind we use with our pigeons.

If you do get the liquid Metronidazole, let me know and I will help you figure out how much to put into the water. The only thing is you would have to always be there when you place this water dish out to stop any other birds from drinking from it, only Vulturescu's mate. It is not good when a bird does not receive a full course of treatment, because doing this can just make a strain of canker more resistant, and this could happen by having other birds randomly drink the medicated water.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I will try to find this liquid Metronidazole. It's not a problem with the prescription because I have a friend who is pharmacist and she give me everything I need without prescription. Important is as you say, to find this med. The pharmacy where my friend works is closed tomorrow, monday morning I will go to see if I can find this.
Anyway, tomorrow I am home and I will try to catch her if you can.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

I'm searching on the Internet and I found it Metronidazole injectable solution and this is the compozition Compozitie:
Sol. perfuzabila 5 g/l 
Formula AFormula B 
Metronidazol0,500 g0,500 g 
Glucoza monohidrat5,47250 g- 
Clorura de sodiu 0,02587 g0,780 g 
Acid clorhidric 0,1 N0,2487 g 
Apa distilata pentru preparate injectabile pana la100,00 ml 100,00 ml 

If it is good then only remains me to see if I find it to my pharmacy.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, if I am reading this listing right there are 5 grams per liter of Metronidazole (perfuzabila 5 g/l) which will would work, as this 5mg/mL and it looks to be a ready to use bolus. She would only have to drink a small amount, 5mL to get a daily dose (25mg) and could drink as much as 10mL with no problems, we could even dilute it 50:50 with water, to make it more palatable, and still have it be therapeutic. Speak to your friend at the pharmacy, tell her what you want and what you need to do with it, as she may have another/better suggestion for you. Tell her what you need is a liquid Metronidazole that can be placed into water and not settle out.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, thanks Karyn, tomorrow morning I'll go to the pharmacy and I will explain to my friend what I need. The bad news is that today, Vulturescu's mate has not come at all and in an hour it gets dark outside, so, she will not come today.
Vulturescu is doing very well, every day is feeling much better and becomes more powerful, I'm very, very happy for him!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, thanks Karyn, tomorrow morning I'll go to the pharmacy and I will explain to my friend what I need. The bad news is that today, Vulturescu's mate has not come at all and in an hour it gets dark outside, so, she will not come today.
> Vulturescu is doing very well, every day is feeling much better and becomes more powerful, I'm very, very happy for him!
> 
> Dana


Dana, her not coming would not be strange, as I am sure since she has "lost" Vulturescu her normal daily patterns of behavior have been changed without him by her side, I am sure she is OK though.

Very glad to hear Vulturescu is doing better each day, we need to treat him for at least a week and could be as much as 10-14 days.

Good job,

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, today no sign of Vulturescu’s mate, I think that has her own list with places to eat and my window is no longer on her list without Vulturescu. I went to the pharmacy today, I have not found metronidazole solution. My friend told me that there is only for hospitals and is a solution for infusion / injection. Of course that can be possible to ordered for me, but it is very expensive and very large quantity. He said that another solution can be to dissolved in a water a pill of metronidazole. But anyway, if Vulturescu’s mate not coming……we can not do anything.
Vulturescu is getting better every day, I took some new pictures and I think that you can observe a difference between the first pictures on the first day when we got him and new foto. He has a different look and is more, more active.

Thank you so much for all your help!
Dana


----------



## Pidgey

He actually looks like a lost homing pigeon (domestic) or he's descended from one. They don't usually have that beak and cere shape unless they're that way.

Pidgey


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## Dobato

Dana, Vulturescu certainly looks so much better, we'll try and not keep him too much longer so he can try and find his mate once again. I agree, without Vulturescu she has gone back to her old routines. I don't think you should worry about buying the Metronidazole liquid meant for hospitals. However, perhaps you could ask you friend about Metronidazole suspension, here is a photo of one company's brand below. Also, a while ago I helped with a sick bird in Greece whose caregiver bought a similar product in Greece called syrup Flagyl 5ml/200 mg benzoato de metronidazol equivalent to 125 mg Metronidazole, they should not be too expensive.

http://amriyapharm.com/amrizole_suspension.html

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

You are right Pidgey, he looks like a homing pigeon but certainly he's descended from one, is not lost, I feed him for nearly five years, he's a very beautiful bird. I think if it was lost he will heve ring on the leg. 

Ok Karyn, I will ask my friend about Flagyl syrup. I'm thinking that if we release Vulturescu then I will have good chances to catch her when he comes with him. When do you think can be released?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I'm thinking that if we release Vulturescu then I will have good chances to catch her when he comes with him. When do you think can be released?
> 
> Dana


Yes, I agree, the chances of catching her will be much better if Vulturescu is with her. We started treatment on Feb/24th, so today makes 4 days and I think we should treat him, as mentioned before at least 7 days. So that makes this Thursday March/3rd. What may be best is to dose him twice on the Thursday as usual and then in the early morning Friday (when the rest of your birds come) dose him one last time and let him go with them.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, is perfect as you say, friday in the morning I'll release him and I'm sure that he will be back with his mate.
Thank you Karyn,You did a good job! I think we did better than the vet in this case. 
I think that Robin may not have died if I would have given this treatment. The vet treated her only with Baytril and now I have learned that only Metronidazole treat canker and maby for this reason finaly Robin died.
I think it's a good veterinarian, is good when a bird is injured but when the bird has a disease maby does not know the correct treatment.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, I am very saddened to hear you say that Robin did not receive the proper treatment required to clear her canker. I checked, to see if I remembered right, and in your very first post in this thread you said she did have trichomoniasis and was treated by a vet and was cured with antibiotics. Part of my sadness is that because she was seen by a veterinarian for treatment, and the treatment is simple, effective and well known, treatment with Metronidazole, I did not ask any questions to confirm what he used to treat her with. You had really come to the forum deal with a legacy of the canker infection, a beak that had scissored on her. 

You were doing the treatment outlined to help slowly correct her beak and it seemed like things were going well and then you disappeared for a while and when you came back reported Robin had died. At the time, because you were heartbroken by her death, I did not pursue trying to find out what may have happened with her. To hear now that she was only treated with Baytril by the vet for canker has made for a sad morning for me, as if she had received correct treatment she would very likely be with us today. 

Part of my own learning curve over the time I have spent on Pigeon-Talk trying to help out with sick and injured birds is the understanding that just because a vet is involved does not mean that everything is under control and they will always get the diagnosis and treatment right. If it was today you came with Robin, because I have come to realize a trust but verify policy is sometimes best, we would very likely know that only Baytril used.

Well, maybe Robin was looking out for Vulturescu and it seems the whole circumstances and timing on him now coming to you are working out for him.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

I remember perfectly the day when I went with Robin to the vet. The vet cleaning the beak, removed dead tissue and told me he has a nose infection and he give her 5 days of antibiotics, Baytril (not metronidazole!). This was all the treatment he give me for Robin and I was perfectly convinced that treatment was correct. At that time I did not know what disease it is, because it was my first experience with a sick bird. After a while when his beak scissoring I asked for help from a local site, a pigeon site for those who raise pigeons and some people told me that it is canker. Here is the link with my case http://www.porumbei.ro/cioc-strambat-si-imposibilitatea-de-a-se-hrani/ . Most of advice were very hard, they recommend me do no longer suffer the bird and kill her because this desease it will never heal. This hard advices made me to look for other external sites for birds and in this way I was lucky to arrived at Pigeon-Talk, but unfortunately for Robin was not to be. Pigeon-Talk is a great site and I'm very glad that I found it, here I found wonderful people who help these wonderful creatures, and to be honest, I have more confidence than in veterinary. That's why when I find a bird with problems, even I go to the vet, I prefer to speak with you because for me is very important your opinion and advice, more important than the opinion of the vet because you know best pigeons. Robin will always be in my heart and as you said, I think she sent quickly Vulturescu to me to save him.
To tell you the truth, in that morning when I found Kimy in street, I went straight to the vet and after the consultation his advise it was euthanasia. He told me that she will never fly again, because it was open wound on the wing and the bird is in pain. You realize that I did not want to hear something like that and I told him that I want to save this bird. Then he recommended me another vet, specialist in bone fractures and this new vet treat Kimy and now is a very a healthy bird and ready to return to the wild.
Well, I think these vets are very good in dogs and cats, but with birds not always know the right treatment.

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

The lab test for Trichomoniasis is VERY simple with a plain microscope: one just takes a cotton swab, wets it with water, insert it down the beak, give it a twist, bring it back out and dob it on a microscope slide, make sure that there's a small drop of water on the slide, put a coverslip over it and look through a good microscope with good resolution at 100x or greater. They're easy to see, wiggling around.

In theory, ANY vet would have such simple equipment.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Pidgey, I'm sure that any vet have this equipment for analysis, but at that time my vet, believed and was convinced that Robin had a wound to the beak, which then became infected wound. Then I had no experience with pigeon diseases, it was my first pigeon with problems that's why, sometimes, I feel so guilty because I catch her too late, when I saw that he can not eat and was very weak. I do not think of it could be something else if my veterinarian says he knows what it is. After I started to discuss in the sites for birds, I realized that my veterinarian does not know so much about bird diseases.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I asked my friend about Flagyl syrup and told me that there is not the form of syrup or suspension, Flagyl is only in the form of tablets or eggs. I searched on the internet if it was an online pharmacy who sell this syrup Flagyl, but is not. Anyway, Vulturescu's mate has not passed through my window these days, at least I have not seen her, I also had more work these days. Vulturescu is very, very well, it is my strong and beautiful bird that was before.
Tomorrow morning after I give him for the last time Cipro, we'll release him just as you said. I'm sure that the next day he will return with his mate and I will try to catch her. Do you think that she can infect Vulturescu again so fast?
Thank you so much Karyn!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am glad to hear Vulturescu is once more his strong former self, have you been giving him the Metronidazole these last days as well? Vulturescu's mate might not even be infected, but I thought it would be a prudent thing to do, to catch if possible and treat her as well, to reduce or eliminate the chance of him being reinfected by her. The good thing is if Vulturescu were to become sick again anytime in the future, for any reason, it seems like you will be able to catch him again in order to help him. Let's let him go tomorrow and see how things go with his mate.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I give him Metronidazole until yesterday, you told me to give him six days, but to be sure I give him seven days of Metronidazole. 
Yes, be sure that I will be able to catch him again very easy, he came in to my house to eat and all I have to do is to close the window.....so if I see any problem I will catch him very easy.

Dana


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## Dobato

OK, very good, just making sure. He will be ready to go home tomorrow .

Very good job with him,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, today in the morning we release Vulturescu and everything was just perfect. I was put him in place where he used to eat in my house, I left the window open and after ten minutes he left alone on the window. After three hours he returned with his pair and they eat together. You can see both in the pictures and she, Vulturescu's mate, seems very healthy. Please, if you can tell me what to do now with her, do you think need to treat her and I must hurry to catch her? or keep her under surveillance?

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am so glad everything went perfect for Vulturescu and I am also very happy to hear he soon found his mate and returned to feed a little while later. With Vulturescu's mate, I am not sure what would be best to do, to try and catch and treat her, since he was ill, or just to observe her for now, since she seems to be healthy. I will PM Pidgey for his feedback.

They do look happy together .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes, they look very happy together and Vulturescu was a gentleman because came with his mate for her to eat and he just picked some food. He waited until she got tired to eat and then they left together. Anyway, I think he understood everything that happened, and he know that I helped. I'm very, very happy for him that is ok now.
Thank you again for all your help Karyn!

Dana


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## Pidgey

Well, hard to say what to do... when it comes to Trichomoniasis, the very best defense in the wilds has been theorized to have an infection of a weak strain of Trichomonads. Weird, huh? Immunologically speaking, that makes sense but from a practical point of view, it's got to be tough to do. They're going to pick up the Trichomonads in the water that they drink "out there" anyhow, so curing them both completely is probably a waste of effort. It's possible that he was actually "down" due to something else and the Trichomonad strain that he had started taking advantage of his weakened condition--you're just not going to know. The only way that you can control that stuff completely is to put them in a loft for the rest of their lives and treat & quarantine every other bird that goes in there with them. 

If they're going to live out in the wild then you need to make such good friends of them that they return often enough so that you can keep your eyes on them and treat where necessary. Mind you, there's going to come a day sooner or later... and that's just life.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Ok, so, in conclusion.... I must be watching them. I pray that Piu to be healthy, if he get hurt or ill, I have no chance to catch him, is the most wild pigeon now. 
Kimy is doing very well, monday I will make last visit to the vet and when the weather warms we release him.

Thanks Pidgey!
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, yes, I think Pidgey is saying not to worry about catching her right now, as things are fine with her and if Vulturescu ever become sick again, to do what you did this time, have him come in your home and close the door/screen after him.

Is there a chance with Piu that you can start to train him to come into your home again by leaving some food where he usually eats and more a little inside, where he used to live, so you could close the screen on him if you ever needed to? The same with Vulturescu's mate, is there a chance you can train her a little by having Vulturescu lead her into your home to eat a bit, don't catch her now, but she will be used to coming in if later you have to catch her?

We can't protect them from everything all of the time, this is part of accepting that they live in a wild environment that we have no real control over, so you only can do your best and not worry yourself too much about things you can't control. They are lucky to have you watching over them.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, unfortunately, with Piu is not any chance to train him to came in my home again.....if you see how scary it is when he eat! If Piu see a little movement from the house when he eat, runs immediately and not return. I do not know why he became so wild and I really, really can not explain. Let's hope that Piu will be healthy in the future!With Vulturescu's mate will be easy to make her came in my home, because she follows him and is confident that it is not in danger.
Today in the morning, when they came together to eat, I gave them to eat from my hand. Vulturescu is customary to eat from my hand, is a gentle bird, he's used to me and when she saw him as eating from my hand, she came near him, and ate too. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, unfortunately, with Piu is not any chance to train him to came in my home again.....if you see how scary it is when he eat! If Piu see a little movement from the house when he eat, runs immediately and not return. I do not know why he became so wild and I really, really can not explain. Let's hope that Piu will be healthy in the future!With Vulturescu's mate will be easy to make her came in my home, because she follows him and is confident that it is not in danger.
> Today in the morning, when they came together to eat, I gave them to eat from my hand. Vulturescu is customary to eat from my hand, is a gentle bird, he's used to me and when she saw him as eating from my hand, she came near him, and ate too.
> 
> Dana


Dana, sounds like with Vulturescu and his mate you will be OK, I would do this everyday for a while, have her eat from your hand, so she gets to know you and have Vulturescu bring her inside as well, so in the future she will think nothing of coming in. With Piu, I would not give up on him as he was mostly raised inside your home and old memories may return, it can't hurt to try and it may be best that to get him to even think about coming in, that you are not close by or maybe someway not to be even easily seen.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, this morning a neighbor( who use to feed birds , like me) found a pigeon that does not fly, just behind the building, in the parking lot. I think that is from Big’s flock. She know that I care for birds and because of that she call me "mother of pigeons". She came a hour ago to ask me what is wrong with this pigeon, she said that all day he drink too much water, his droppings are very liquid and does not want to eat. 
Now the pigeon is to me because my neighbor have no experience with birds. I looked into his mouth and I see some yellow spots, seems to be canker. The bird does not look good, is very weak, sad and shriveled and not moving at all. I already gave him 62.5mg of Metronidazole and I want to ask you if need to give him also Cipro? Or he need a different treatment?
Karyn, I’m sorry to bother you constantly but there is something very strange, until now never happened to me! I finish to cured a pigeon and immediately comes another patient, is just incredible…… like someone sends pigeons in my hand! I hope to save the little guy, if it is not too late for him, you know better, have more experience.

Thank you!
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, yes, start him on the Cipro as well, give him instead of 0.10cc (5mg) give him 0.15cc (7.5mg), this will do what we call load his system, get more medicine at a higher level in to his system, then go back to 0.10cc (5mg), every 12 hours after that and of course the Metronidazole once every 24h as well. Also, when I see a bird with a larger water intake and wet droppings like this I would prefer them be on an antibiotic called Trimethoprim/Sulfa (many other names; Bactrim, Septra and so on), it not only will treat many of the same infections Baytril/Cipro will, but will also treat for an infection called coccidiosis and a frequent symptom of this infection is wet/loose droppings, where Baytril/Cipro will not. If you could get some of this medicine it may be a better bet for him.

I have always heard that once you start helping these guys, the sick ones in the neighborhood will find their way into your hands, it seems this is very true in your case. Provide him water and food, but with the seeds/food, take out all the larger corn, peas and so on, just smaller seeds, until we make sure he is digesting the smaller food well. Also, try and keep him in a warm area to help him conserve energy and when sick its best that they are kept a little warm. I know I don't have to remind you, but wash your hands well any time you handle him or change papers so nothing is passed to Kimy.

Good luck with him and I am always very happy to help you,


Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I will see how can I find these antibiotic called Trimethoprim/Sulfa and I send you another droppings photos, looks very, very bad! I will give him right now Cipro.
Thank you, Karyn!


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## Dobato

Dana, Trimethoprim/Sulfa can come in a liquid form (suspension) do not get the liquid, get tablets/pills and we will make our own suspension, like we did with the Cipro, if you do find some Trimethoprim/Sulfa.

Also, I know it is worrying to see bad droppings like this, but I would rather seem them passing very wet droppings like this, as it means fluids are moving freely through them, then when they get sick and nothing is moving through them well at all.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, the problems is that nou is too late and I don't know if I find an open pharmacy. I will try tommorow morning if I can't find now. Kepp you informed when I have in my hand this antibiotic.

Dana


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## Dobato

OK, see what you can do. If you want, instead of plain water, you can give him hydration fluid instead. This will help his body absorb fluids better and help make up for the loss of fluids with such wet droppings. To make this fluid add 1 teaspoon of sugar to 8oz. of water (250mL) and then also add 1/8 teaspoon of salt.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I rushed my husband and found an open pharmacy, found this type of antibiotic. If it is ok just tell me how to prepare the suspension. We also give him Cipro or just this?

Dana


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## Vulturescu

The tablets/pills form, as you said.

Dana


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## Dobato

Boy Dana, you certainly did not waste any time, your birds have a real guardian angle in you. Yes, almost as before, crush the pill into a very fine powder, add 10mL of honey and stir, wait 20 minutes and stir again. You will now have a 4.8% suspension to dose your little one with (48mg/mL).

I want you to dose him 0.30cc twice a day (every 12 hours). If you have already given him the Cipro, that's OK, you can now stop the Cipro and start him on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa (plus the Metronidazole). As before, stir very well each time you draw out a dose and keep refrigerated between use.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yep, we did not waste any time. You know, is funny that at the beginning, when I had the first problems with pigeons, my husband did not agree with me. He insist that we must let nature do its job and we fight very bad about this problem. Now is more desperate than me to save the birds!!!
So, I crush one pill into a very fine powder, I add 10mL of honey just as you said ans I give him 0.30cc rigt now in the morning. I give him one dose of Cipro after we talked but it's OK, I will stop and continue with this Sumetrolim.
I put the bird in a warm place, in a bedroom, near the radiator and I give him hydration fluid instead, just as you told me. He drink plenty of fluids, in the morning he went to bowl with seeds and picked a few seeds(I left only the wheat, rice and rye in the bowl).
Well, I hope that will do well and will recover this poor little bird.

Thank you Karyn,
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, your husband sounds like he has a big heart as well, it was very nice of him to make the extra effort to get this little guy the Sulfatrim ASAP. For food, you can also prepare him some of the corn bread like for Piu and break this into small pieces, some cooked rice and small pieces of fresh bread (whole wheat if you have it). With the rice and bread you can coat them a little with just a bit of fresh olive oil to keep them drying out too much, the oil will add some extra calories as well.

Before he did not have a chance, now with you he does, hopefully you have him in time for the medicines and your care to bring him back.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I have already prepared today the corn bread and I gave him little to eat. I want to ask if it is better to let him drink water as much he wants, because drink continuously. Is better if we put some vitamins in water? My husband, today, bought these vitamins http://promedivet.ro/p-supl-pic-v-p-p-e.html .

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, when sick they will some times drink a lot of fluids to flush their system and as long as the fluids are freely moving through him and not building up in his crop, for now you can allow him pretty well free access to fluids, but I would not mind it if you took his fluids out for 2 hours each time you gave him his medicine. So if you are giving him medicine at 8am and 8pm, you would remove his fluids until 10am and 10pm, as I would like to make sure the meds a given a good chance to be fully absorbed. Did you make him up the hydration fluid (1 teaspoon of sugar, 1/8 teaspoon of salt into 250mL) instead of plain water, plus, if you have some around the house, you can also add a good pinch (more or less about 1/16 of a teaspoon) of bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) to the water as well to help with electrolytes. 

With vitamins, they look to be for birds and you can give him some following manufacturer's instructions on how much to add to so many ounces of fluid, but because he is drinking so much fluids, only add it once a day to one dish of fluids, as we may overdose him if it's in his fluids all day long.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes, I make him a hydration fluid and now that you told me I will add some bicarbonate of soda, I always have it at home. The vitamins are for exotic birds, in manufacturer's instructions write 100 ml water/30-40 drops and I've put 40 drops/200 ml water.
I fed him by hand today, because he eat very little, I give him some corn bread, cooked rice and fresh bread, I always cook bread in a house (I have bread making machine) with whole wheat, extravergin olive oil,sugar, salt, fresh yeast beer. Maybe tomorrow will feel a little better.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, sounds like you are doing everything you can. It may take a few days for him to start to respond to the medicine. Just keep doing what you are doing and let's see how he is feeling in a day or two.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I post you some pictures with overnight droppings, this morning looks very bad, perhaps because he had food in it.....I don't know. I show you this pictures because you know if there is anything worse.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, it is as you say, they look to you worse because they have a good amount of solids in them, meaning he is getting more food into him, either by you feeding him or on his own (or maybe both). This is good, as it shows not only fluids, but food as well, is moving through him OK. How does he feel in weight, does he feel to be a good weight or does he feel thin in his chest area and light feeling?

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, in weight does not take anything, is still the same. No is not a good weight, is very weak and easily.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, yes, in the cheast area he feel thin.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I understand, in weight does not take anything, is still the same. No is not a good weight, is very weak and easily.
> 
> Dana


OK Dana, understood. Again, just continue with everything the same for now and we will give him some time to start to hopefully improve. In the first photos he did not look well at all to me, and I thought there was a chance he may not survive the night, but he is hanging in there, so we will have to be patient and do the best we can for him.

Also, please continue to help with some feeding for him as you have been doing, don't stuff him, just make sure you feel he is getting a decent amount of food each day.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok karyn, I will continue to do my best for him and I'll tell you how he feels tomorrow.
Thank you, 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, when they are this ill there can be more than one infection going on at the same time. The medicine combination you are giving him is a very good one to treat almost all of ones he could have, if his illness is bacterial or protozoal in nature (or both), but it may take any number of days. Each day he hangs in, gets warmth, fluids, food and medicine improves his chances of making it. 

One more question, does he ever make any strange or twisting movements with his head?

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

No, I didn't see any strange or twisting movements with his head. Today began slowly to peck at his feathers, has a normal head movements, and it seems a little small improvement.
By the way, the bird with PMV, who cared for her a friend of mine, is well, she fully recovered and was released a week ago. A happy ending for her!

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> No, I didn't see any strange or twisting movements with his head. Today began slowly to peck at his feathers, has a normal head movements, and it seems a little small improvement.
> By the way, the bird with PMV, who cared for her a friend of mine, is well, she fully recovered and was released a week ago. A happy ending for her!
> 
> Dana


This is good to hear, we have to look at even small improvements, and behaviors, as a good sign. Although PPMV can't be entirely ruled out just yet, thanks for clarifying that he does not have any odd movements with his head.

Dana, to be able to say a little better is always preferable over having to say a little worse .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, this morning he/she (for me looks like a she/female; what do you say?)seems a little better. Overnight, drank less water, half what he used to drink before and can be seen in her eyes that he feels a little better.

I went to the vet yesterday with Kimy and everything is just perfect. I think that it will release him on Saturday, this weekend the weather warms and spring is coming. After three months with him in our lives, would be very hard to see him leaving......but we are happy for him that is a perfectly healthy bird and return to his home.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, she does look better today, good to hear her water consumption is decreasing. We usually know within a few days if they are going to respond to the treatment we chose for them, and if not, then things need to be reassessed and perhaps changes made in the treatment plan. Since she is improving, let's just stick with our current treatment plan and let's see how she is doing in 3-4 more days, she will most likely be with you for at least a few weeks.

Glad to hear Kimy is ready to go, I am sure Kimy will be happy to be back with friends and still have you looking out, very well done Dana .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes Karyn, you're right, looks like respond to treatment and is a good one. Now, when I have to catch her, she react and is scared of my hand. I think this is another good sign because until now she has no reaction.
I'm really glad that he will stay with me for several weeks, I got used to have pigeons in the house. Especially now, that Kimy will go, she is very, very welcome because my house would be too empty without birds.

Thank you,
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, sounds good that she is is now reacting to your hand and trying to avoid being handled. I have a feeling the way things are going with you, the sick and injured birds in your neighborhood finding their way into your hands, you will have birds around your house now and in the future (but hopefully not too injured and not too sick .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I just want to ask you, how much time we can give her hydration fluid?

Thank you, 
Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I just want to ask you, how much time we can give her hydration fluid?
> 
> Thank you,
> Dana


Dana, although her droppings are still fairly wet, I think she is now starting to react well and should be well hydrated, so if you still have a bit of hydration fluid mixed up you can finish it with her and then she will be fine with straight water from now on.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes, her droppings are still very wet, the water consumption is decreasing in half but she also drink lots of water. I prepared this morning hydration fluid, so will probably finish it tomorrow.
Karyn, today she feels a little better and I noticed that when raise her head to look at us, have some strange movements with his head, she not twisting his head but has a tremor/shaky. Looks like she is anemic, weak and when he wants to scratch with claws she loses balance. Anyway, is not something normal. I looked on several videos of birds with PPMV and certainly she not look like she have PPMV. Eating alone and the beak can catch the seeds. Today she spend more time in front of seeds bowl and chooses seeds that she likes.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, today she feels a little better and I noticed that when raise her head to look at us, have some strange movements with his head, she not twisting his head but has a tremor/shaky. Looks like she is anemic, weak and when he wants to scratch with claws she loses balance. Anyway, is not something normal. I looked on several videos of birds with PPMV and certainly she not look like she have PPMV. Eating alone and the beak can catch the seeds. Today she spend more time in front of seeds bowl and chooses seeds that she likes.
> 
> Dana


Dana, she is coming back from near death and is slowly making improvements each day. It is not unusual for an incoherent bird who is suddenly becoming aware of their surroundings, and they are very unfamiliar, to have a bit of nervous shaking. It's only been a few days and I am sure she is quite weak still, so her being a little unsteady at this point on her feet would not be unexpected as well.

That being said, at around 7-8 day mark if she is still displaying some of these symptoms we may make a change in medicine back to the Cipro, as this will be long enough to have treated for coccidiosis. The antibiotic she is on, Sulfatrim, will treat both coccidiosis and a salmonella infection (paratyphoid), and while Cipro will not treat coccidiosis it would be a better choice for paratyphoid infection, which there is a chance could be causing some of these neuro symptoms if they continue to persist (paratyphiod also, as well as coccidiosis, can cause wet droppings like she has).

Dana, I don't know if it is possible where you are at, but since it seems you will be helping more these little guys in the future. It might be a good idea to see if you could pick up a small hospital cage for them. Cardboard boxes are just fine, but they seem to feel more comfortable and relaxed when they can look out and see what's going on around them and an open cage helps with this, you do drape a small towel on the top for an extra secure feeling for them.

Here I use a small cage like this; http://www.rabbitcagesource.com/rab...es/prevuepetsmallanimaldeeptubcageonstand.cfm, as hospital cages for my guys when they are sick and I bring them in from my loft. New, they are not too expensive, but I picked up two mine from a buy & sell website called Craigslist for $20, don't if they have something like this in your country or garage sales, but second hand they are quite cheap.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, thanks a lot for informations aboute small cage; I start to searching on internet and I can not find the model you showed me, I found only this kind http://www.piata.ro/cusca-transport-pt-animale-mici_70181/ . I do not know if this is good but I will try this weekend maby it can be found at a pet store. 
Anyway, you're right, I need to find something better than a cardboard box, especially that in the future I will help more birds.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, this is what we call a pet carrier and they are OK if large enough, the one you show would offer better looking out of than a cardboard box, but not as good as a cage like I linked. The trouble with a small carrier is they don't really offer much room for a pigeon to stretch out, or flap its wings for a bit for exercise, and bigger ones are more expensive than a cage. The cage size I linked, 24L(61cm) x 14W(36cm) x 16H(41cm) inches, would be the minimum you would want to be able do this (I have this exact size), they can flap their wings a bit, perched on a brick I have for them to sit on inside. I use this size of cage when I want them to not have much activity, I have a larger similar cage when I want them inside, but want to give them more room to exercise, but are not ready to go back to the loft. In your case, you may do what you did with Big and Kimy, give them freedom in their own space in your home, when they are ready to come out of the cage. No rush, have a look around, pet stores would be a good bet to find one, but make sure you don't get smaller than the one I showed, a little bigger is OK, but not smaller.


Karyn


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## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I understand what size must have the cage if I find one to buy. However, when the bird is doing a little better and is ready to came out of the cage I leave her free in the house, is not a problem for me. Now because is ill, I think is feeling much better in a cardboard box because she has more heat inside, is sheltered. Now if the weather is getting warm, I have a large balcony, with windows closed, and I can use it for birds.

Thank you, 
Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn,I post some new pictures with Kimy, before being released. Maybe tomorrow we will release him because the weather has warmed and he is very anxious to leave.
My new bird, I will call her Coka, feels increasingly better each day. Tomorrow I'll make new pictures with her and droppings. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Kimy looks very well indeed and I am sure he if he could say so would be very thankful to you for saving his life. Glad to hear Coka is getting better with each passing day, I look forward to seeing her new photos.

Is that Vulturescu and his mate I see Kimy looking at through your window?.. they look good as well, if it is them. 

Nice going with them all.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes Karyn, through the window is Vulturescu and his mate, this morning when eating, and they do very well!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, these are some pictures with Coka, taken this morning. She feels better with each passing day, she eat well and drink less water, almost normal. The glass with water, that can be seen in the pictures, is placed last night and in the morning was still three quarters cup. Before I found the glass empty, with no water in the morning. Today he started to beat me, when he sees my hand that I want to touch her, started to beat me.
Kimy is a free and happy bird now, this morning, after two hours of thinking, finally took flight. These days I hope he will return for food......I hope, but anyway I know it will be just fine!
You can see an album with him on my public profile, are some pictures from this morning before he take flight.

Thank you,
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, Coka certainly does look bright and with us in these latest photos, a big change from her first photos. Getting "wing slapped" is one of the best possible signs that they are starting to really feel much better, this very good to hear. After 1 week you can stop the Metronidazole, but continue with the Sulfatrim, if her droppings are still loose a few days later, we may, as mentioned before switch her back to Cipro to finish out her antibiotic treatment, continue to give her the corn bread, cooked rice and whole wheat bread, as well as her seeds for food.

Very nice photos of Kimy, I am sure he is going to do very well back in the wild, whether or not he does come around looking for food by you. Like before with Big, a happy and sad time for you, I am sure you will miss him being around your home, but happy he is free again to live his life as intended.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok karyn, tomorrow is a week of Metronidazole, so will stop tomorrow. Sunday is one week of the Sulfatrim, so when we need to go on Cipro just let me know. Coka still seems a little dizzy, weak and has a easy head tremor.
With Kimy, I'm sure it's around and is likely to eat with Big's flock, the problem is that Kimy is very hard to recognize him because it has a common color, many pigeons are like him. He is not like Big who I recognize him from very far, because it is only dark brown pigeon.
Well, that's the hardest part, when they must leave, is like my child who grew up and must leave home....

Thank you,
Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, OK tomorrow, stop both the Metronidazole and the Sulfatrim and start Coka back on the Cipro, same dose as Vulturescu, 0.10cc (5mg) twice a day (every 12 hours). After another week we will see how she is doing to see if anything needs to be adjusted or changed.

Yes, I know, it's hard on you when they leave, good job with Kimy and maybe you will be able to pick him out in the flock.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, I will give her just tomorrow Metronidazole and the Sulfatrim and I will start from Sunday only with Cipro.

Thank you very much Karyn,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, today our princess Coka, came out of the box and began to work her wings. I think this is a good sign that she begin to be curious and feels the need to flap the wings.
Kimy, no sign of him....all day I looked after him and nothing. Kimy it might not be a bird from the flock near my building, because I found him a few streets away from my building. My only hope is to return to my window to eat, but probably has his old places where he eat. Still hear him walking around the house and we miss him so much!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, Coka looks better each day, and you're right, her feeling like she wants to start to exercise is another very good sign towards her recovery. With Kimy, if he did come from a flock a few blocks away, it is almost certain he returned to his flock and the area he knows as "his", so you may not see him again, at least not with your flock or around your home. I would not worry too much, as he looked in really super shape and I am sure he is making out just fine .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

He returned home! Yes Karyn, Kimy returned home this morning!!! He entered in the house and immediately went to his favorite places, first place was his mirror. I left the window open all day and he did not want to leave. He was very loving with us and I think he missed home these days, is quiet now, is in his cardboard box and rest. I am overjoyed that he came back and still I can not believe we have it again in the house. Now it is dark outside and overnight he stay with us. I don't know what plans he will have for tomorrow.
Now I wonder what to do with him, it's okay to let him do what he wants? I do not mind if Kimy want to remain always with us, but, I'm not sure if it is normal for him to have this life.
Coka is doing very well, tomorrow I will make some new pictures with her droppings. Today I had to isolate her from Kimy, I moved her in the bedroom again.
Yesterday he tried to fly around the house and when she landed, she hit the floor. She not have the power to keep good standing when he lands, more falls than lands. Seems to be dizzy. Do you think would be good to give him some calcium?

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, this is indeed very surprising to hear, that Kimy came back and stayed the night, like he was coming home. If he was young, and you raised him like Piu, this would not be unusual, but for an adult feral to do this, and be so friendly, is I think very special. It speaks to the care you gave him and the bond that formed with you while doing so, and his recognition of your kind heart and that you saved his life. Not to mention the all free food . There are people who do this, let them come and go and interact as they choose, I really see no harm in this, as this is his choice and he can spend time with his wild friends or with you, as it suits him.

With Coka, she still may be weak from the illness and it may take some time yet for her to slowly make her way back to health, I know you don't mind and she can take the all time she needs with you. Just as a check, if possible, I wouldn't mind getting a present weight for Coka so I have a more clear picture in my mind where she is at. You can do like with Piu, place her in a small box, weigh her and the box, then later weigh the empty box and then subtract. I would not chance her coming out onto the scale, like with Piu, if you have your friends at the corner store do the weighing.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Kimy not only that wish to spends the night here but he came this morning and stayed in the house all day and he did everything he was doing before. Same routine... and more, is more loving with me, may he felt that every night I dream him since he left. You're right that there is something exceptional for an adult bird, that was when we found him, to be so friendly. I would have liked that Piu be so friendly like Kimy.
I really thought these days to buy a kitchen scale, especially that I will always have "patients" in the house.
OK, I will try tomorrow to go to the store and I will ask do the weighing.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, remember Pidgey's post from a little while back where he joked Kimy was getting spoiled......




Pidgey said:


> Actually, to me he looks like he might have some real problems facing him--he looks kinda' like he's gotten a bit spoiled...
> 
> Pidgey


Well, it looks like Pidgey was way ahead of us on this . I don't know about there, but here, when on sale, you can get a decent digital scale for very cheap at some of the big discount stores. Keep an eye out, you may be able to pick up a deal on one. 

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Sure that I remember..... I can not ever forget the word "spoiled". Indeed, he was really quite right Pidgey!!!

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, Coka which seems to be a great Coko (is a male!), weighs 290 grams, I went to the store and I weighed. I discovered today that is a male, when he heard Kimy making noise, Coka began to do the same....so I'm lucky to save only males.
Kimy does not want to leave the house, he sit at the window and looked outside almost all day. He is so happy and quiet since he returned, but the only problem is that he beat the other birds and today he beat even Piu. He doesn't want to let any bird to closest to the window.
I post you some new pictures with Coko's droppings, now looks like almost normal dropping and a picture with my terrible Kimy today.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

.......and a beautiful picture with Vulturescu who took a bath today, is a very warm weather for this time period. Today was 23 degrees Celsius.... we went straight from winter to summer.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Hi Dana, Coko's droppings are very much improved over where they started, they were a real mess at the beginning, the Cipro seems to be working well and we are going to keep him on it for 14 days. You very well may be right, that Coka is now a Coko, but I thought I would mention females sometimes do make a "roo-coo-coo" noise, not as loud, long or aggressive as a male, but they can make this sound when excited.

At 290g, I would consider Coko underweight (most likely, even much less than this when you first rescued him over a week ago) so he has good bit of weight to gain yet and strength to regain as well. I would like to see him work his way up to 340-360g before you eventually release him.

SO it looks like Kimy has taken over your place , these guys do recognize a good thing when they find it. I guess you will have to figure out things with him and how to juggle window time, as we can't have him beating up Piu and Vulturescu and his mate can we , nice photo, by the way, of Vulturescu, wow. 23c (73F) that's quite a nice change in weather.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes, however,I belive is underweight with 290g, but when he arrive in my hands it was half of this weight, so is on the right way. I did't know that the females sometimes do make a "roo-coo-coo" noise like males, so do you think that Coko may still be female?

I think Vulturescu and his mate hatch eggs in the nest, because starting from yesterday, they do not come together to eat. Vulturescu came to eat in the morning and after, during the day, came his mate.

Now it looks like I have something to work with divider window for all the birds to eat!!!

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I did't know that the females sometimes do make a "roo-coo-coo" noise like males, so do you think that Coko may still be female?


Hard to say with certainty at this point, could be. When Coko is feeling much better and is getting around, place Coko in front of the large mirror Kimy likes and see how Coko reacts, if he acts like Kimy, could be a male, if he acts not so interested, could be a female. Yes, it does sound like Vulturescu and his mate have started to nest, in a few months let's see if they bring their little ones to feed by you .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Well, thank you Karyn, I'll keep you informed with activity of my birds. I have a lot of activity now with so many birds! 
They are very lucky because much of my work I can do at from home, by computer, and in this way I can have care for them all day.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, today Coko started to making some strange movements with his head, he always had a head tremor but this movements did not have before. I noticed that he can't catch the seeds well with his beak and I think that seems to be symptoms of PPMV. Are not twisting movements of the head as I seen in videos on youtube, but his head goes out of control sometimes. Yesterday had nothing, everything seemed fine and these symptoms started today. I think, because we treated him with Cipro, can not be paratyphoid because it would heal until now....so can be PPMV?

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, stop the Cipro for a few the time being, and let's see if this changes things. The reason for starting back the Cipro, for a longer treatment, was to address the possibility of Coko did have paratyphoid. The Trimethoprim/Sulfa we used will threat this infection, but there are only reports that a fluoroquinolone antibiotic (Baytril, Ciprofloxacin, Norfloxacin and a few others) will clear any latent/carrier infection that might be in place.

Let's give him a few days free from any meds and see how he responds.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, Karyn, I will stop Cipro and I'm watching him to see how it feels in these days.

Thank you, 
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, also we can not completely rule out PPMV just yet, as in a post I remember Feefo making (Cynthia) an infected bird may take up to 2 weeks to show symptoms and we have had Coko for under this time period (found the post below).

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=451678&postcount=3

Let's hope it is just a passing thing, as the symptoms you describe are not generally associated with the intake of Cipro (tremors), but the only sure way to know is to stop it, as we have done, and see if the tremors clear.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK, I understand, so it is not excluded PPMV......I hope it is not PPMV, my poor Coko. Next saturday are two weeks since we have on care Coko.
Coko ate very well yesterday and last night, before to sleep, was a full crop but today could not eat anything. He try all day to peck up the seeds and failed, he throw them all out of the bowl and when I check the crop, was empty. So, I feed him by hand today.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Today was a nightmare with Kimy! This morning came out of the house and spent all day on the air conditioning, where my birds use to eat. He ran and beat all the birds, he did not want to enter in the house and I had no way to catch him. Yesterday I closed the window and I kept him in the house when the others birds came to eat and I think he understand that, because today do not let me catch him and did not want to enter the house at all. 
I do not know what to do with him. I think he wants to take hold on my window and is extremely aggressive with my birds. It hurts me very, very much that he beating my Piu and today Piu could not eat anything. 
Karyn, I was so happy that Kimy come back to us, but now begin to be a problem.....maybe you have an idea how to do with him.

Thank you, 
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Yes, as my grandmother used to say, be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it . Dana, Kimy is doing what seems right to him, protecting what he now regards as "his" territory, as there is very good perching there and lots of food, so he wants to drive others away. I am running out right now, I'll think about it while I'm out and PM a few people for their thoughts and post a reply later. Perhaps you can put some for for Piu on the ground below your air conditioner for now.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Time for some "tough love"...

If it's any consolation, the mean ones usually live longer.

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

It certainly sounds like PPMV, very tiny tremors of the head and eyes and difficulty picking up seed were the first symptoms we saw in Mick. He first came to our attention when he was a squeaker, doing sweeoing motions with his beak. He actually made a full recovery and has never had a relapse.

*This* is a video of a PPMV survivor seed tossing.


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, Piu never goes down in the garden, he eats only at the window and is always very, very scared. That's why I fear that Piu can no longer come at all to eat if Kimy will beat him. Piu always comes to eat before was night outside and eat a lot of seeds. Maybe outside he doesn't found to much food. And is not not just Piu, are other birds that have their routine with the food from my window. You already know that Vulturescu and his mate eat at my window, but, besides that I have one pigeon with big foot problems, a thread has got both legs. Me and my husband tried to catch him since last year, but it is impossible, is too scared and wild. Now he has a leg which can use well because it was cut by the thread, he jump on one foot. He comes every day to eat at my window and I can not leave him without food!
Oh Karyn, how many problems!!!

Thank you,


----------



## Dobato

Dana, this is a quite strange situation we find ourselves in, getting Kimy healed and doing well, so well, that he is beating everyone up . In the loft, Kimy would be what is called a bully bird and there are ways to effectively deal with this behavior, but because it involves taking away some their ability to get into a good fighting stance, by tying their legs together, this is called hobbling, so they can walk a bit, but no longer have good balance, as a result, to want to try and fight with other birds anymore. But because Kimy is a wild bird we can not, and should not do something like this, so there are not a lot of alternatives for us.

You have to decide what you want to do, to let them work it out, where maybe the others start to stand up to Kimy from hunger and not be scared away, or do you want to try and make Kimy give up controlling the top of the air-conditioner.

If you want to make him give up control of the top of the air-conditioner, you can get a water spray bottle, like you would use for spritzing house plants, set it to a stream setting and when he lands on the air-conditioner spritz him with the water bottle to move him along, telling him to GO! It will not take many times of doing this before he will not want to land on the air-conditioner. This will not hurt him physically in any way, but it may bruise his feelings. He may still want to come down to fight when others land, so you would have to be careful only to wet Kimy, and only use the spray bottle then, no loud order to GO, so you don't frighten one of your other birds.

I know this will be hard for you to do, since you worked so hard at getting him healed, and wanted him to be part of the birds that came to your window to feed in harmony with the others. Whatever you decide to do, Kimy I feel will do well, there is food that falls into the garden below for him and also the food you leave for your flock at the back of your building. I have thought about this all day and there may be other solutions, and while not ideal, these are the two that I came up with, let them work it out, or shoo him off the air-conditioner, so he no longer controls it.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato

As for Coko, Cynthia (Feefo) seems to feel that Coka may indeed have PPMV, so we will have to carefully monitor him and offer him support with feeding and water, as you have already done, while we wait for his symptoms pass. There is a chance it may be something else, but the seed tossing, along with the tremors, certainly does point to this being the case with him. In any event, he is in your good hands and in time should recover from this set back on his way back to health.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Well, thank you very much for advice, Karyn. I think that I'll try the version with sprail/bottle water. You're right that it will be very difficult to do that but I can not let my other birds without food and be tortured by him. 

I saw the video posted by Cynthia and Coko are some symptoms that look like what I see there, but he doesn't twist the head like that bird. Coko droppings start to look normal, right now I took this pictures and are overnight droppings.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Well, thank you very much for advice, Karyn. I think that I'll try the version with sprail/bottle water. You're right that it will be very difficult to do that but I can not let my other birds without food and be tortured by him.
> 
> I saw the video posted by Cynthia and Coko are some symptoms that look like what I see there, but he doesn't twist the head like that bird. Coko droppings start to look normal, right now I took this pictures and are overnight droppings.
> 
> Thank you,
> Dana


Dana, we rely on Cynthia quite a bit on the forum, especially when it comes to matters with PPMV, as she has so much experience with it and has researched it probably more thoroughly than any other member here. Different birds ill with this virus will have varying degrees of how bad their neurological symptoms are, so hopefully Coko will not experience the head twisting that some birds come down with. Also, his droppings don't look too bad, but in another recent thread Cynthia mentioned that a bird recovering from PPMV does not always have bad droppings, some can look not too bad at all, so it's good to see Coko's looking not too bad.

I know it will be hard with Kimy, you did just too good a job with him .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, with Cipro what we do? May we continue to give him Cipro or stop just for a few days and after we resume the treatment. Or give him a smaller dose of Cipro. I don't know, but I think aboute what you said, that paratyphoid is heal in two weeks with Cipro and we had two weeks this saturday since we treat Coko. I'm afraid that Coko is not completely healed and the disease can go back......but, in Chyntia post aboute PPMV- 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html - she says "•	Do not use antibiotics without consulting a vet. They can intensify the lesions and aggravate the course of the disease."

Dana 








http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, with Cipro what we do? May we continue to give him Cipro or stop just for a few days and after we resume the treatment. Or give him a smaller dose of Cipro. I don't know, but I think aboute what you said, that paratyphoid is heal in two weeks with Cipro and we had two weeks this saturday since we treat Coko. I'm afraid that Coko is not completely healed and the disease can go back......but, in Chyntia post aboute PPMV-
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html - she says "•	Do not use antibiotics without consulting a vet. They can intensify the lesions and aggravate the course of the disease."
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-paramyxovirus-aka-pmv-ppmv-pmv1-pigeon-12248.html


Dana, for now, because I am fairly satisfied we addressed any bacterial issues with 7 days of treatment with the Sulfatrim and 4 days of treatment with the Cipro, that we can stop the Cipro for the time being. Coko did respond well to antibiotic treatment and has made an enormous improvement from where he first started. 

I know Cynthia mentioned in past posts that giving antibiotics to a PPMV bird can be problematic, unless really required, as they can exacerbate symptoms (Cynthia, please correct me if I am remembering wrong). I think right now we have been aggressive in treatment for bacterial/protozoal (canker) issues and can stop for the time being. 

As mentioned before, these guys, when as ill as Coko was when you first got him, can have a numbers of co-infections all at once, bacterial, protozoal and sometimes viral, so I feel pretty good about what we did for the first two and it may help in his recovery to not be giving him any antibacterial treatment right now that may make his viral symptoms more pronounced.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

It's OK Karyn, now I understand perfectly, I'm watching him to see how it begins to feel today without antibiotic.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, today I noticed that Coko start to spins constantly. The symptoms are more severe and he can not pick up the seeds at all, but doesn't twist the head. Certainly it is PPMV.

Kimy chose to stay almost all day at home, it was very cold and rainy outside. Yesterday was 24 degrees Celsius and today was 4 degrees Celsius, bad change in the weather. So, my other birds they could eat in peace today. In the picture you see is another client of mine window, he had both legs tied with a thread. I was telling you in another post about this guy, he has one leg bad hurt and can not walk well, he salt on the other foot. This guy really depends on my food and I think that is very hard for him to find food. I can not let Kimy to beat him and chase him from my window, all day yesterday he beat this guy.
Today after Piu ate I opened the window to see if Kimy wants to go outside and he went out and left. I do not know where but he doesn't returned, may have gone to sleep at his old place. I'm sure that tomorrow morning we'll find it at the window.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, well, with this latest symptom, the spinning, I guess it's kind of confirmed now that Coko does have PPMV, I am glad he is with you to get him though this illness.

Also glad to hear Kimy did not beat anybody today, at least you got one day of peace, let's hope for the same tomorrow. With your guy with the thread on his foot, we call this "string foot", I wouldn't mind if you could make another go at catching him. At this point it looks like the thread has balled his foot together, but there doesn't, at least from the photo, seem to be a lot of swelling or discoloration in his foot/toes, if we can get the string off, and with a little therapy, there is the chance his foot may be able to return a good deal to normal.

Is there any way you could move the seed dish a little closer to you window sill each day, then inside with a little food leading up to it, so you could get him inside to close the screen on him, maybe even rig up something with some string so the closing could be done from a distance? Just a thought, don't haunt yourself with this, but see if you and your husband can figure a way of possibly catching him.

Here is a link to a few photos on how bad the string can sometimes hurt their feet; http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=545301&postcount=19

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, we struggled for a long, long time to catch this pigoen but it is very, very wild and scared. A year ago has picked this thread and since then we tried to catch him, does not want get close to the window. I think he feels that it is disabled and even if he sees other birds that eat near my window, he does not want to came near the window.
I really do not know what other solution would be to catch him, you realize that I really want to do that and I'm sorry to leave it that way because it is a beautiful and healthy bird.
This morning when we woke up I found Kimy at the window. Now it's in my home, he ate and went to his place at the mirror. It seems that today is a quiet day at my window.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, yes, I should know you would be thinking about, and doing whatever you could, up to now, to catch this little one to help him. Does he ever eat in the garden below, or with your flock in the back? Outside of the foot, he certainly looks in fine condition.

I am glad it seems you are going to have another quite day with Kimy, maybe there is a chance for peace and you will not have to spray him .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, this pigeon is not from the back flock, but yes, he eat in the garden below if I throw down seeds. Today, this poor guy was the only one who could not eat because of Kimy.
Kimy rested in the morning and after came out and made war with my birds. I have not had a chance to spray him because now he wants to take control to the whole area, not only the air conditioning. In front of my window are two big trees and usually there are many birds and Kimy running and beating them all. It's a crazy bird! Most pigeons that eat at my window are male (Piu, Vulturescu and this pigeon with leg problems is male) and not one of them happened to be so aggressive like Kimy. I never ever imagined that I would have such problems like these!!! 
Luck was that before Piu coming to eat, Kimy entered in the house and in this way ate Piu and Vulturescu.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, the reason I asked if the poor fellow will eat in the garden is the only way I see of catching him, as skittish as he is, is with a box trap, here is a link to making one (top of the page). If you do this, make the box and set it up for a few days without worrying to use it, this could be 2-4 days, with seeds under it and around it, so that it becomes "a normal" thing for the birds to now see everyday and be around and so they lose any fear of it. When you see this loss of fear, especially that the poor fellow is no longer scared of it, and will go under it to eat, then try and catch him. I don't know if this will be possible for you to do in the garden, but there are few other ways that I can see working. You perhaps could even set things up so you can pull the string right from your window to close the trap.

http://www.racingbirds.com/ptrap.html

Well, maybe the best you can do right now is take away the control of the air-conditioner from Kimy, and with it being spring, let's hope that he soon finds a mate and this brings about a change in his behavior. Yes, Kimy is now a hand full .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK karyn, it is a very good ideea to try catch him with a box trap. I prefer to do this right from my window because under my apartment, at ground floor, is a medical clinic and it's not so nice to see me everyone how I try to catch birds with trap.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, don't haunt yourself too much, just see what you can do, it may take a little time, but at least you have a small plan of action now. Also, make sure the box has a good weight on top, like in the photo, to make sure he can't push under the box if you get him.

Karyn


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## Dobato

Dana, one more thing. When you get ready to really try a catch him, if the opportunity arises, you will need to run the string from the stick along the ground for a distance and not straight to your window. As when you start to take up the slack to trip the trap, he most likely will see this and come out from under the trap and fly away. Here's what I mean (sorry for the poor drawing) you can use a piece of bent wire coat-hanger, pushed 8" into the ground, as the the "eye" to run the string up from.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, thank you so much for help Karyn, I'll do my best to catch him. Let's hope that this plan will work. I will wait a few days to settle things up with Kimy and I will try this option. Kimy, is still a hell outside....he beating even the sparrows who coming to my window to peck wheat seeds!!! 

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, all you can do is try, and we'll hope you are lucky and are able to catch him. I am sorry Kimy is such a terror, you certainly so have your hands full with him  , let's hope he finds a woman soon .

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, here you can see a video with Coko - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mKMu-olDB0 . Is not very a good quality movie because I recorded with my photo camera, but you can see something.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Yes Dana, looks to be PPMV, Coko does look bright, and so far, it does not look like he is suffering from severe head twisting (torticollis), but looks like some balance and spinning issues. Cynthia (Feefo) has mentioned that there have been reports that supplementing with some calcium can help with some of the neurological issues. Sometimes when I have wanted to give an immediate boost in calcium to a bird, here I have used a supplement called Caltrate (with Vitamin D), they are larger tablets that have 600mg and 200IU of Vitamin in them. You can give 1/6 tablet (100mg) to start and then 1/12 (50mg) every second day until it is finished. You "pop" it like you did the pieces of Metronidazole pills.

http://www.caltrate.ca/Content/Products/caltrateVitaminD.asp

If in your country they do not have Caltrate, most health food stores will carry calcium supplement pills and could buy these. Just make sure the ones you get have added Vitamin D, this helps the body absorb calcium. If they are of a different amount, this is no problem, just adjust to this. For example if the pills you get are 400mg, you would give 1/4 (100mg) to start and then 1/8 (50mg) every second day, and so on.

In any event, the extra calcium and vitamin D will do Coko good, and may help with his symptoms.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Looks kinda' like "ataxia". That would be a specific medical term for the symptom of unsteadiness. Another similar-looking condition could be "paresis". It does look more like a neurological symptom than a physical one, though, but you'd make that determination mostly by way of checking the bird's weight. If the muscles are of sufficient mass and strength then weakness due to muscular atrophy should not be what you are seeing there, thus it would be neurological in origin.

How does that help? It doesn't, exactly, although it might indicate (if it's not viral like PMV) a longer antibiotic therapy with a shift of antibiotics in an attempt to get through the Blood Brain Barrier. That is, sometimes the area affected by the likely pathogen (like bacteria) is inside the brain where the body keeps a rather more powerful filtering system that can even stop antibiotics from entering. In some infections, that filtering system stops working to a large extent and you can easily get antibiotics in. In other infections, it doesn't stop and so it's possible for the infection to be protected from most antibiotics by the body's own defenses.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I already have in my hands this type of calcium with Vitamin D (I use it for my daughter), http://farmacie.allshops.ro/produs/356203/Cipcal+Sirop+-+150ml.html .
Is syrup/suspension from clam shell and its composition Calciu = 250 mg and Vitamina D3 = 125 U.l.
If it is good this suspension, I only need to know the dose is given. If it is not good, there is no problem, I will go to the pharmacy and buy pills.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I already have in my hands this type of calcium with Vitamin D (I use it for my daughter), http://farmacie.allshops.ro/produs/356203/Cipcal+Sirop+-+150ml.html .
> Is syrup/suspension from clam shell and its composition Calciu = 250 mg and Vitamina D3 = 125 U.l.
> If it is good this suspension, I only need to know the dose is given. If it is not good, there is no problem, I will go to the pharmacy and buy pills.
> 
> Dana


Yes, this can work. Where you say "Calciu = 250 mg and Vitamina D3 = 125 U.l.", what is this in relation to, how many mL of syrup does it take or will contain 250mg/125IU?

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Pidgey, but why he not have these symptoms at first, when he was very sick and weak, and began to show symptoms after a week and a half?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey said:


> Looks kinda' like "ataxia". That would be a specific medical term for the symptom of unsteadiness. Another similar-looking condition could be "paresis". It does look more like a neurological symptom than a physical one, though, but you'd make that determination mostly by way of checking the bird's weight. If the muscles are of sufficient mass and strength then weakness due to muscular atrophy should not be what you are seeing there, thus it would be neurological in origin.
> 
> How does that help? It doesn't, exactly, although it might indicate (if it's not viral like PMV) a longer antibiotic therapy with a shift of antibiotics in an attempt to get through the Blood Brain Barrier. That is, sometimes the area affected by the likely pathogen (like bacteria) is inside the brain where the body keeps a rather more powerful filtering system that can even stop antibiotics from entering. In some infections, that filtering system stops working to a large extent and you can easily get antibiotics in. In other infections, it doesn't stop and so it's possible for the infection to be protected from most antibiotics by the body's own defenses.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, Chloramphenicol, Doxycycline and Minocycline all penetrate the blood brain barrier. I guess this is where it gets tricky, determining whether it is truly viral, or could still be bacterial in nature. I guess we could look at the way the symptoms came on, showing small tremors a while before real pronounced symptoms presented. Coko could feed and was perching as well, then seed tossing and spinning, wish I knew more about PPMV to say with certainty.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, for 5ml syrup is Calcium 250 mg(31,25%) and Vitamin D3 3,125 ug(62,5%)- this is written on the bottle. 

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Works for me--I was actually only describing the clinical terms for the symptoms and explaining that there was such a thing as a Blood Brain Barrier--it was merely an educational post, not a diagnostic one.

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, for 5ml syrup is Calcium 250 mg(31,25%) and Vitamin D3 3,125 ug(62,5%)- this is written on the bottle.
> 
> Dana


Dana, OK good..., now how much water do you think Coko now drinks in a day? If you are not really sure, today or tomorrow, not sure where you are at with the time difference, first thing in the morning measure out how much water you give him and then at night, before lights out, measure what is left in his water dish so we can get a rough idea how much still drinks. The reason I ask is that we can just add some of the syrup to his water, but I want to try and get his dosing fairly right by seeing what his water intake is in a day.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey said:


> Works for me--I was actually only describing the clinical terms for the symptoms and explaining that there was such a thing as a Blood Brain Barrier--it was merely an educational post, not a diagnostic one.
> 
> Pidgey


OK, gotcha', I like these posts, as the issues involved sometimes can be a little further reaching than what sometimes is being observed.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I will measure tomorrow how much water drink because now it is evening, is 5 o'clock in the afternoon, the time when Piu must come to the table.
Karyn, if you think it is better to give Coko other antibiotics like Doxycycline or Tetracycline, just tell me, because I already have these drugs in my little home pharmacy.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, Cynthia (Feefo) is leaning toward PPMV, and the presentation and progression of symptoms do seem to lean toward this. With that being said, without tests, we can just use our best judgment, that's why I said, hold off on the antibiotics for now, because there is a chance we may try another course of antimicrobial treatment later, but for now let's just monitor Coko, supplement him with some calcium and see how he progresses. Thanks also for letting me know you also have Doxycycline and Tetracycline on hand at home.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand, I will tell you tomorrow how much water drink Coko, anyway he drink very little water now but to tell you for sure I have to measure.

Thank you very much,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok Karyn, I understand, I will tell you tomorrow how much water drink Coko, anyway he drink very little water now but to tell you for sure I have to measure.
> 
> Thank you very much,
> Dana


Dana, just make sure that part of the reason he is not drinking much is not because of the PPMV symptoms, maybe he if fine for drinking, but if he is having any difficulty drinking you may have to help him with this, as well as with food, as you have been doing.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, thanks for telling me aboute this, I will watching to see how much water he drinks. Now I'll go to the pharmacy to buy some calcium tablets with vitamin D and I'll tell you what concentatie I found. I think it is better to begin soon to give him calcium, because otherwise we lose another day.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

OK, I'll look for your post.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I found this type of calcium with vitamin D3 http://www.efarma.ro/products.php?id=1098. So, one pill have 500mg Calcium and 200IU Vitamin D3.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Dobato said:


> they are larger tablets that have 600mg and 200IU of Vitamin in them. You can give 1/6 tablet (100mg) to start and then 1/12 (50mg) every second day until it is finished. You "pop" it like you did the pieces of Metronidazole pills.
> 
> If in your country they do not have Caltrate, most health food stores will carry calcium supplement pills and could buy these. Just make sure the ones you get have added Vitamin D, this helps the body absorb calcium. If they are of a different amount, this is no problem, just adjust to this. For example if the pills you get are 400mg, you would give 1/4 (100mg) to start and then 1/8 (50mg) every second day, and so on.
> 
> Karyn


They are larger tablets, so I have to cut a tablet in 5 pices and for the first day I will give him 100 mg, and after i will cut every pice of 100 mg in 2 small pices and I will give him 50 mg/day. It is ok?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, how many Mg is each tablet?

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

So, one tablet have 500mg Calcium and 200IU Vitamin D3.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, look at my first post, it is a link where you can see how it looks.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, since they are 500mg, and harder to make an even 5 pieces (100mg) I personally would do this. Cut 1 pill into 4 even pieces (125mg) then shave a little off of each until you have 4 pieces and a little pile of shavings that look to be about the same amount as the 4 pieces. Give one piece, 100mg, and the 1/2 a piece (50mg) every second day for the rest, this will be 6 pieces and be about 12 more days of treatment.

If you decide you want to help Coko drink, wrap him up in a towel, so just his head is almost poking out one end, like he is in a little cave, and then guide his beak into very slightly warm water, to drink. The towel will help you control him and making the water just a touch warm will make him accept/drink it easier.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand, I can handle now, thank you so much Karyn. And yes, for sure that I will help him with water.
Karyn, did you know if Cynthia(Feefo) saw the video with Coko? Her opinion would be very important because he has more experience with this PPMV.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I understand, I can handle now, thank you so much Karyn. And yes, for sure that I will help him with water.
> Karyn, did you know if Cynthia(Feefo) saw the video with Coko? Her opinion would be very important because he has more experience with this PPMV.
> 
> Dana


Dana, I will PM Cynthia and ask her to have a look at the video of Coko you made.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK, thank you again Karyn!!!

Dana


----------



## Feefo

Sorry, I hadn't seen the video. Yes, it looks like PMV to me. I don't have any pigeons here that are in the early stages of PMV, but quite a few that have residual nervous symptoms, so I will try to take some videos and upload them on to youtube tomorrow so you can compare. 

As far as the water intake goes, we only had one that drank great quantities of water, I thought that she was suffering from diabetes but the vet guessed PMV. This was before the nervous symptoms happened. Her first nervous symptom was the inability to pick up peanuts, she would try to but pecked to the left or right of the target. The next symptom was torticollis,

If you are worried that it might be bacterial or that there is a concurrent bacterial infection then perhaps you should have some poops analysed.

Cynthia


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Cynthia and thank's for your answer. Yesterday, all day I watched videos with PMV birds and if now we have your confirmation, it seems to be definitely PMV. His first nervous symptom was the inability to pick up seeds, he would try to but pecked to the left or right of the bowl seeds (exactly how you mentioned aboute your bird), and now seems that the next symptom is torticollis, especially in this morning I noticed that torticollis symptom is more pronounced than yesterday. He look at me and it has turned head down, I noticed that he loses balance only when I put my hands on it, maybe he is stressed and scared of my hand. If I don't reach him by hand is quiet and has no problems with balance.
Is very hard to see a bird who has these symptoms, especially as this is the first experience for us with a pigeon with PMV. I am sorry for him, mercy me because I do not know how good he feels.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, it is the stress that can make the symptoms worsen, so when you reach for him he feels stress and his symptoms become more pronounced. I don't think they feel any pain from the symptoms, but they may feel a bit odd as their body is not acting as it normally should. In time these symptoms should pass and he couldn't be in better hands to help support him and take care of him right now, just make sure you wash you hands very well whenever handling him or his dishes, cage paper and so on, to be safe for your other birds.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Do not worry Karyn, since we are dealing with pigeons, I bought all the antibacterial/antiseptic products Dettol, so I'm very careful with hygiene not only for the safe of my other birds but for us and our daughter safe.... you never know! 
Thanks for all the care and good advice Karyn.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, just so you know, humans can not contract PPMV, if this is even a little worry to you or your husband. From the time I have been here, I don't recall ever hearing of a care giver becoming ill from helping a rescued bird, best always to practice good hygiene, but the risks are very small, as extremely few diseases are easily passed from pigeons to humans.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I understand and thanks for confirmation, I read more about pigeon diseases and we are not worry aboute this. For this reason I always let the birds free in the house, even in the kitchen because I know they are not dangerous for us. But you know how it is when you have a child, it's always better to be careful, especially that the child learns that you must always have a good hygiene no matter what...

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I want to introduce you my new invention. Today I searched all day through the city to find a cage as you show me, for birds. I have not found anything big enough for a pigeon, so I thought I'd must do it alone one big cage. So I bought the biggest box of fruit, four poles, a mesh fence and I started working. I made this cage that you see in the picture, has a length of 59 cm, width 40 cm and height 68 cm. I think it is very good for him and very comfortable. Now can work his wings and can see us very well .

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, you did an excellent job, I am sure Coko will be happy with his new home, lots of room to stretch and flap his wings. I have two suggestions for you, the first is what I, and others, do for birds in hospital cages, like this, is provide them with a brick/paver to perch on. I pick up pavers from a local building store for a few dollars each, they look like this http://www.belgard.biz/shapes-cambridge-tumbled.htm, or you could use just a plain brick, or two, that they use to build buildings with. 

They like these as perches and it also allows you put put a few folded paper towels under the brick, where a good deal of their droppings will collect to save time and mess cleaning up their cage. The other suggestion is if you have a small table to put his new home up on, or even an empty box, this would be good, as they much prefer to be off the ground, and up higher, even if it's just a little higher on a table.

Nice job, Coko looks good,

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, today I went at a store near my house who selling building materials and I didn’t found a brick or a rock as I you show me. Maby next week I'll have more time to go in the town to look after one. 
For the moment I put in a cage this green box that you see in the picture, is quite good and I saw that Coko like to perch on it. Is not an empty box, is heavy and has around 700 grams because is filled with cream bags.
I put the cage on an empty box, now Coko is like a little king.
Thanks for all the advices!

Kimy worries me because he sits all day long at my window, not even for one second does want to leave. In the evening, when their bed time, he go to sleep at his place outside but in the morning when we wake up, we find him to the window. Kimy is like a dog that keeps my house and I'm affraid that in this way he will not ever find a mate, he does not care at all what do the other birds, he does not want to fly with all the flock and he only stay to guard my window.
I do not know what chance we have to catch the pigeon which is tied with the thread his leg. Since yesterday, the poor bird not coming at all to eat because is terrorized by Kimy and he can not fight with Kimy.
I tried to spray him, but in vain, he runs on the neighbor's front air conditioning and when a bird comes to my window, he salt directly behind him and running the other birds until make them go. Sometimes I do not have time to do my thing, my work and I have to stay all day to fight with him to let my other birds to eat a few seeds.
Is just impossible this bird!!!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, you did a good job getting Coko set up and the little box inside will work for now, but it could be a little slippery for him, maybe you can tape a piece of cloth to the top for better grip for his feet. Also, sometimes where they are doing construction/renovation work, there are old bricks being thrown out from these places, maybe you could find a few old bricks this way.

With Kimy, yes, he is like a guard dog now and I don't know what else to suggest just now. I will think about this situation and perhaps another idea will come to me, but right now I am stumped as to just what to do to get him to stop. I am almost certain in time the call of nature to mate will get stronger for him and at some point he will seek a mate, as he is so dominant, I just can't see him not trying to find one.

Sorry this is so hard on you and your other birds with Kimy .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I put two videos with Kimy to see just how strong and energetic it is and to get an idea as Kimy is. In my home was very possessive with his box and fight hard if we touched his box. Now acts in this way outside, with the other birds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw1JbJmWXg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7mHnQ_iv44
I was thinking not to give him food at all, maby in this way will go from my window to search for food....it's just an idea, I do not know if also good, I do not want to make him suffer. I'm consulting with you because I do not know how to find a good solution to make him leave my window, but at the same time to not make him suffer.
Today I saw a bird that was definitely sick, was very, very beautiful female, black with head and chest white. I struggled to try to bring her to the my window to make her see that there is food to make her come tomorrow and eventually catch her. You realize that Kimy has chased her and beating her and I lost her. Tomorrow I'll watch after her in the area maby is lucy to find her....was a beauty!

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, I had a look at the videos and the aggressive behavior Kimy is displaying in them is not unusual for a male defending and protecting what he considers "his" area, I have received many bites and pecks from my birds acting the same way. What is unusual, is for Kimy to be to doing this, to the extent he is, to all the other birds in the wild, even sparrows. Not sure removing the food when he comes is the answer, I wish the answer was more clear to solve all the issues, but it may take a bit of time to figure out.

Now that you have become "aware" with these birds you are going to see many birds in the years to come that are sick and injured and you will have to try and accept that you will not be able to save or help them all. As I mentioned before, do what you can, but don't haunt yourself if you fail in trying to help one of the birds you know needs help. Some will be directed in to your hands for help and then you just can try your best. This may be the case with the new black and white one, you may just be able to catch her to help her, but if it is not possible, at least know you are aware and you do try help as you are able.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand, thanks for advice! All I want now is to solve the problem with Kimy and have at least half of peace that I had before at my window with my birds.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

This morning, my husband, when he left home found the bird that I was telling you yesterday. He found her in the backyard, is from Big's flock, like Coko (seems that is an outbreak of disease in this flock), she does not fly. 
I have already given her Metronidazole and now I need to know what else to give her. You know seeing her droppings what is wrong with her. Do not drink so much water, drink normally and smells really bad.
I put her in the bedroom, have no contact with Coko.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, tell you husband good job. You are kind of getting to know what to do . start her on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa as well, same dosing amount for both the Metronidazole and the Trimethoprim/Sulfa as Coko and let's see how she is doing in a few days. Her droppings do not look good, as she is ill, but they do show she is getting some food and water down herself, but keep an eye on them to make sure you see solids in them, in case you may need to hand feed a bit.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, thank you so, so much. I'll prepare right now Trimethoprim/Sulfa and give her. 
Well, it seems that this bird found a way to reach in our hands and now let's hope that is not to late for her. I'm so very glad it's in my hands now. 
My husband thanks you, Karyn!

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, our new bird, we call Bella, there is no improvement in her condition. I noticed this morning that Bella's cloaca is very dirty, smells really bad, is slightly swollen and red. I searched the Internet and I read that this symptoms can be intestinal paratyphoid. I want you to see the pictures and to tell me what I can do more for her, if something can be done.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Dobato said:


> That being said, at around 7-8 day mark if she is still displaying some of these symptoms we may make a change in medicine back to the Cipro, as this will be long enough to have treated for coccidiosis. The antibiotic she is on, Sulfatrim, will treat both coccidiosis and a salmonella infection (paratyphoid), and while Cipro will not treat coccidiosis it would be a better choice for paratyphoid infection, which there is a chance could be causing some of these neuro symptoms if they continue to persist (paratyphiod also, as well as coccidiosis, can cause wet droppings like she has).
> 
> Karyn


Karyn, I found your post and I think maby is better if we change the Sulfatrim and we start on Cipro. I just think at you said that the Cipro will be a better choice for paratyphoid infection. However, her condition seems to worsen, first day he ate and droppings was not so bad like now, now she not eat anything, started to drink more water and the dropping's smell is awful, I can not describe how bad smell.
With the material I have left from Coko's cage, I made a cage large enough and comfortable for Bella.
Coko it feels good, manages to eat alone, I fill in the evening by hand if necessary. Anyway, it seems to be a mild form of PPMV, is not as serious as we saw in clips on the net.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Kary, I replaced the first photo because it was not a very good quality. In this can be seen in better her cloaca.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, yes, we can switch to the Cipro, you can start right away, but please continue with the Metronidazole, as the yellow color in her dropping is sometimes indicative of canker and birds with canker can have a bad sell as well. Get an old pan you do not want, and can later throw out (or use just for this) and fill half with warm water, sit her in it and wash her cloaca area, you can use a bit of soap as well, and then pat dry, do this anytime this area becomes dirty. When dry you can put a small amount of Vaseline (petroleum jelly) on and around her vent area, droppings can be irritating and perhaps what you are seeing is some redness from the droppings irritating the skin in this area, and the Vaseline will act as a barrier, like with a baby's rash.

Also can you check with you druggist friend and see if she has Nystatin suspension (100,000IU/mL) and get a small bottle, this is an anti-yeast medicine and we can start her on this as well, as bad smells are also sometimes indicative of a yeast infection. As I mentioned before, when very ill, they can have a number of illnesses at once. Although no need this next med, as just yet, but please also check with her if she has Chloramphenicol on hand, if so, whether she could make you a suspension @ 100mg/mL, if you needed her to.

The cage set up looks good, and even though her droppings have become worse, there was still a fair amount of solids.

I am glad to here Coko is stable, let's see if we can get some improvements in Bella in the next few days.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I went to the pharmacy and I found only this type of Nystatin, does not exist in the suspension form and maby we can make our suspension. And another one, Chloramphenicol is no longer on the market, maybe you know something else that has similar properties.
Ok, I will clean Bella's cloaca, thanks you told me.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, you really are the best, you get on top of things so very quickly, it is just such a pleasure working with you. Yes, these will work just fine, take one pill cut into 4 pieces and "pop" one piece every 24 hours (once a day) for the next week. Just so that you know, this medicine does not get absorbed into the body, it works as a contact medicine.

If Chloramphenicol, is not available ask if Thiamphenicol still is available (I double checked, it seems it is in Italy), this is a derivative of Chloramphenicol. The reason I ask about this antibiotic is that I remember a while ago there was a member in Yugoslavia who had a bird with paratyphoid that, I might have mentioned before, did not respond to Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Baytril, but did to Chloramphenicol, I always like to plan a bit ahead in case things don't go as expected, hopefully she will do well on the Cipro.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand Karyn, I will give her right now Nystatin. And I will aks aboute Thiamphenicol, but tomorrow in the morning when my friend is on work, she work only in the morning.
Yes, hopefully she will do well on the Cipro!

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

I searched the internet and I found nothing about Thiamphenicol, is very possible to not found him. I don't know what esle I can do.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I understand Karyn, I will give her right now Nystatin. And I will aks aboute Thiamphenicol, but tomorrow in the morning when my friend is on work, she work only in the morning.
> Yes, hopefully she will do well on the Cipro!
> 
> Dana


Dana, just so you know again, if needed, there is a very good chance your vet would have Chloramphenicol, as there were some issues with Chloramphenicol in human use, and the all meds you are getting are from a human pharmacy, but vets are still allowed to use and prescribe Chloramphenicol and many still do.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I searched the internet and I found nothing about Thiamphenicol, is very possible to not found him. I don't know what esle I can do.
> 
> Dana


Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiamphenicol

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I will try to go right now to my vet and ask him. I'll must go right now because at this time I'll find him at the clinic, he working only in the afternoon. I will ask for both drugs Chloramphenicol and Thiamphenicol.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, just ask right now, as Bella may respond well to the Cipro, we just want to know we can get it, if we later need it.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, right now I'm back from my vet and he told me that he have just intramuscular injection solution containing Chloramphenicol, Prednison and Tilozin. If it is not good then there another version, to find a veterinary pharmacy and maby can I find Chloramphenicol there.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, right now I'm back from my vet and he told me that he have just intramuscular injection solution containing Chloramphenicol, Prednison and Tilozin. If it is not good then there another version, to find a veterinary pharmacy and maby can I find Chloramphenicol there.
> 
> Dana


Dana, we are looking for pills/tablets/capsules, we can make a suspension with, or an already made Chloramphenicol suspension we can give orally. We very well may not need it, but I like to know what our options are going forward. Also, still check about the Thiamphenicol with your friend.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK, I tell you tomorrow if I'll find Chloramphenicol at my friend's pharmacy.

Thank you Karyn, 
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Dobato said:


> Also can you check with you druggist friend and see if she has Nystatin suspension (100,000IU/mL) and get a small bottle, this is an anti-yeast medicine and we can start her on this as well, as bad smells are also sometimes indicative of a yeast infection. Karyn


Karyn, I want to ask you what does it mean "yeast infection"? I've never heard of this. 

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I want to ask you what does it mean "yeast infection"? I've never heard of this.
> 
> Dana


Dana, a yeast infection in birds is caused by a yeast organism called Candida Albicans, and the correct term for this infection is Candidiasis. The organisms are found through out a bird's digestive system, usually in low numbers, but for different reasons and causes, mostly when very ill and the body is functioning poorly, their numbers can explode, bringing on the infection Candidiasis. Does Bella have this infection, not sure, but the treatment is safe and effective and with her emitting the strong odors you mention, I thought it would be prudent to include this possibility in our treatment plan.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, now I understand what is it "yeast infection", I looked in dictionary and the definition is yeast that makes bread, beer.....now makes sense, so it is Candida Albicans.
Thank you,

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I had a big surprise this morning, Bella lay two eggs, one whole egg and one three-quarters. Yesterday I washed his cloaca and I saw that he was very swollen and red and crossed my mind that may have eggs inside to find in the morning that really Bella lay two eggs, poor bird!

Dana


----------



## pidgey boy

take the bird to the vet if it has a beak injury and you dont know how to fix it


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, now I’m back from my friend’s pharmacy and he told me that he can order for me Chloramphenicol, capsules 125 mg.The order will arrive tuesday morning because it is already weekend and tomorrow is not working. 
So, definitely tuesday we have the drug in hand.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, these guys can surprise you at times, to tell you the truth, I was not expecting that Bella's problems may be a reproductive infection, although in the first photo of her you posted, there was a very slight pink tinge to a little bit of her droppings, that I suspected was blood, but thought was possibly coming from cocci issues, because of the look of her droppings and not reproductive.

I think the aggressive antibiotic therapy she have been on, first with Trimethoprim/Sulfa and now Cipro (both with Metronidazole) has started to work enough on the infection that some internal swelling has decreased and she has managed to pass these mal-formed eggs. I am now cautiously optimistic that with these artifacts (eggs) out of her, they do attract and promote infection, she will start to make better progress to getting well once more. We may need to keep her on antibiotic therapy for 3-4 weeks, both with the Cipro and the Metronidazole. I want you to increase the Cipro dose a little from 0.10cc to 0.15cc, still twice a day.

I am not sure we will need the Chloramphenicol, but I would still get some in, and put it away, as you never know when in the future it may be needed.

Well, no guessing time, you were right!, Bella is definitely a hen .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Well, Karyn at least now I'm sure that we have a female. I'll increase the dose of Cipro and we continue giving metronidazole, today is fourth day of metronidazole. You know that today he start shows signs that he feels a little better, she started to peck seeds and I saw her as a nibble their feathers. 
Karyn, there is no problem with Chloramphenicol, I'm gonna buy it anyway, cost only two dollars and it is good to have on hand especially as it is hard to find it when you need it.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

And, I want to ask if we continue with Nystatin.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> And, I want to ask if we continue with Nystatin.
> 
> Dana


Yes, please continue with the Nystatin, for 1 week (if you did today, that means 5 more days), as we just don't know how many issues she has, and by completing treatment, we can feel better about Candida issues. Yes, do get the Chloramphenicol, and I know we would feel better as well, getting that bad stuff out of us . Dana, when you speak to your pharmacist friend, do you think you could ask her if she has a Meloxicam (Metacam) suspension in stock @ 1.5mg/mL, it will help Bella with any pain and internal inflammation.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Well, I understand, I'll keep you up date with her condition.

Thanks Karyn,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I let you know that I bought this morning Chloramphenicol, so now we have in hand.
Bella is feeling better every day, is very lively, is a friendly and very sweet bird.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, wow, what a difference, Bella does not look like the same bird at all, from a few days ago. She is looking really good and her droppings are vastly improved. Great job ! Keep doing what you are doing, don't change anything for the time being, we have a few weeks to go. Hope we don't get any birds sick enough to need the Chloramphenicol, but glad to know you have it if it is ever needed. Need to find a few bricks for your little guys to perch on . Also, Dana, you post the best photos, they are aways clear, with good detail in them, very helpful .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Thank you Karyn, I know I did a good job, but without your help I would not be able to save as many birds. Is fair to say that we did a good job together. I was lucky to find this great site and many wonderful persons, especially you, who dedicated much of his spare time to help these birds to have another chance at life. I'm so glad that I learned so much about these birds. When I think of last year, this time, I knew absolutely nothing about pigeon diseases.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn,
Bella feels great, is a very lively bird and fought all day long to get out of the cage. 
Coko felt very bad these days, since I removed the vitamins in water. These days was a nightmare for him, poor bird, he always sat with his head twisted and torticollis not stop at all, even for a minute. 
Yesterday I thought that is better to put again the vitamins in the water. So last night I put back the vitamins and today Coko's condition has changed radically. Torticollis stopped and is a visible improvement of 70% better in his condition. It seems that these vitamins really help a lot, at least I see it on Coko.
Karyn, today I managed to buy kitchen scales but unfortunately when I tried it at home does not want to start. I will try tomorrow to buy another battery. I think maybe because of low battery does not work. I hope to be this problem, otherwise I can throw it.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, glad to hear that Bella is getting stronger each day, but as mentioned before, we have to keep her long enough to make sure that we try and clear, to the best of our abilities, any infection she may still have, even if she is showing great improvement.

With Coko, you did what we try our best to do, base treatment on what the bird is indicating to us. You removed the vitamins, his condition worsened, you put them back and he has greatly improved, so, I would continue with the vitamins with him for the time being.

The scale you have is very similar to the one I have, I am sure, with the scale being new, it probably is just a battery issue. Now you will be able to accurately track their weight when needed .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I changed the batteries of the kitchen scales and now works fine. I have already weighed Bella and weighs 280 grams. I want to weigh Coko but I am afraid to not stress him because is so quiet and it feels so good these days. However, Coko is much heavy than Bella.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

I thought it would be just a battery issue. At 280g, I know you are now aware that this would be too light to let her go, even if it was time for her, we want to see her in the 325+ gram area before she is released. You can go ahead and spoil her a bit with raw, unsalted sunflower hearts and raw chopped up Spanish peanuts to help her put on a some weight a bit quicker, if you can find some safflower seeds where you are, they also like these as well. Don't worry about weighing Coko right now, as he will be with your for a while yet, and your right not to stress him, as little as possible, while he heals from his PPMV.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes I thought so and I think is pretty weak, but we still have time to make Bella a little fatter until we release her. I already give her raw, unsalted sunflower hearts but I did not know that pigeons eat Spanish peanuts, but now that I know for sure I will give them.
Let me tell you what other seeds I have at home, so, I have sesame seeds, flaxseed, soybeans, cumin. I only tell you what I have, so you can tell me if some of them are good for pigeons. I always had in the house yellow lentils and yellow peas, but until you told me that are good for birds, I did not know that they eat it and thank you very much for you tell me, now we improved their menu. Everyone here knows that the pigeons eat bread, corn, wheat, oats and sunflower seeds.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I did not know that pigeons eat Spanish peanuts, but now that I know for sure I will give them
> 
> Dana


Dana, it sounds like you are giving them a quite a good diet. With the peanuts, as mentioned, they should be raw and the Spanish type, make sure you chop them up into smaller pieces, to make them easier to digest.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, 
Bella feels great, now weighs 348gr. Bella became very difficult to master, she really wants to go outside, is so desperate to leave and all day struggles in the cage. How long do you think need to be kept her? I am sorry for her because she no longer wants to stay and I have to keep her cage covered with a towel all day.
You can see in the pictures Bella looks like now and her droppings, I think that looks good now.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

And a new pictures with my terrible bird, Kimy


----------



## Luffy

Hi Dana & Karyn,

I am relatively new member here but have read whole of thread, i love how you helped the birds. I respect your deeds. Good job.

 lol kimy looks like after the weekend on Monday she is too lazy to go to work.


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Luffy,
thank you for your message, you're very kind to follow my story pigeons.
Kimy is a big terrorist, all day long beat the birds who approaching my window, so is very busy and when he enter in the house he looks like after the weekend, tired to death.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, with Bella, you caught and started treatment for her on March 23rd, and today is the April 8th, so this makes it 16 days. I would like you to keep her a few days more, and continue with the Baytril, until April 13th, this will make 3 weeks. The reason for this is, as mentioned before, is we want to try and insure, the very best we can, that all remains of the infection are eliminated, and we try and do this with a longer treatment period. 

You have done a great job, and I don't want to worry you, but because she has now experienced a reproductive infection, this does increase the odds of it possibly occurring again, over a hen who this has never happened to. So, since she is not a pet, where if this were to happen again, you would recognize the symptoms and just start treatment, by extending treatment we are trying to make sure we are not leaving something that may flair up again, since we do have her in captivity right now.

Kimy, does look like he now owns the place. I have a suggestion for you. Since we know Bella is a hen and Kimy needs a mate, you could try and place Kimy next to Bella in a similar cage for a few days to see if they take a liking to each other. Most times, you can not put a hen and a male together right away or they may fight, by placing them right next to each other (thier cages touching) they get to know each other. In a few days if you see them wanting to be near each other through the cages, then you can try them together (supervised) to make sure they are accepting and will get along, if so, then they can stay in the same cage and be released together.

This may help Kimy forget about fighting your other birds, and if Bella pairs up with Kimy, it may very well increase her odds of staying around, or even having Kimy lead her into your place, so if she were ever to become ill again, you could catch her and help her once more. Just a thought .

Also, you got Bella to the weight area I was hoping she would get to, 350g, nice job on this.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I will continue with Cipro until April 13th and I will try your suggestion to place Kimy next to Bella. But I think that Bella has already a mate because she was preparing to lay eggs. This makes me think that she has a nest and a mate, but I'll see what happens.

With her weight, Bella reached this weight because I fed her by hand, she is too excited to leave and does not want to eat too much. That's why I say that I feel sorry for her, because it is very stressful for her and she is no longer interested in food or something else.

Thanks,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> But I think that Bella has already a mate because she was preparing to lay eggs. This makes me think that she has a nest and a mate, but I'll see what happens. Dana


Yes, I thought of this, that she may have a mate, but it will be 3 weeks and with it starting to be mating season, there is a chance her mate might have found another hen and I wanted to give her a back up plan, and try to get Kimy off your hands as well .

Dana, yes, I know she is unhappy and wants to go, but like when Piu was not ready, you have to kind of ignore this and do what is best for them.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Dobato said:


> Dana, yes, I know she is unhappy and wants to go, but like when Piu was not ready, you have to kind of ignore this and do what is best for them.
> 
> Karyn


Yes, I know and you're right Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, yesterday morning when I left my daughter to school, in the school yard, I saw some kids that were running after a pigeon. I got off the car, I catch him and got I took him home. I immediately gave Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Metronidazole, so until now I gave him for three times (three doses, one dose yesterday morning, one dose yesterday evening and one dose today morning)Trimethoprim/Sulfa. At first, his dropping does not look too bad, do not drink to much water, he picked a few seeds and everything went, let's say, ''well'' until now. Suddenly began to make blood droppings, very large amount of blood, and worries me because it already has one day and a half of treatment and his condition worsens. Should we give him another treatment?
Sorry I have not told you yesterday that I found another bird, but I do not want to bother you again. I feel very indebted to you for all the help you gave me before and I thank you so much for all your help.

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Well... that looks bad. Could just be a hemorrhage that can heal in time but it could also be something like a bleeding tumor. Can you post some pictures of the actual bird and tell more about how he behaves?

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Ok Pidgey, I will make some pictures right now and I post them. The bird stands like a sick bird, ruffled and sad. What is different from other birds is that is standing with eyes open and stares.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Well, this is the poor bird....and another strange thing, he looking for something to climb up high. Before climbing the bowl of seeds and I put inside a little box, the box shown in the picture and he only stay up on the box.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, have you given this little one any Metacam?

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

No Karyn, I have not given Metacam. I give him only Metronidazole and Trimethoprim /Sulfa.

Dana


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## Dobato

OK good, we don't want to be giving an NSAID to a bird bleeding like this, as they can thin the blood and slow down clotting.

Dana, you know I am happy to help you anytime and you are never a bother, but I am not sure I would have recommended doing anything much different than the treatment you started, so in all likelihood, we would still be were we are right now with this little one.

As Pidgey mentions this does not look too good, and as he also mentions tumors can cause this, as well as the problem you had with Bella, reproductive infection and cloacal cysts. We may want to consider to start calling your vet and getting her (I think a hen) a shot of Vitamin K (phytonadione) the dose would be 10mg/kg q24h IM to see if we can start by getting her bleeding to stop and take it from there (vitamin K will help her blood clot better). I might want to switch the Trimethoprim/Sulfa to Cipro on the very off chance she is having a reaction to it. If you go to the vet have him examine her vent for any growths that may be bleeding.

She at least still looks bright in the eye. I know you are probably doing it but, electrolytes (re-hydration fluid) instead of water right now.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

So, Karyn, I'm not sure if I understand very well, you say to change Trimethoprim/Sulfa to Cipro?
I will go to the vet right now to buy the vitamin K.
The cause of bleeding it may be because of children who have run after him, may have kicked him and caused some internal injury?....I don't know...

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, one more question, I must take the pigeon with me to the vet? have to do injection with vitamin K?

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

The lack of bright whiteness at the ceres (the white part above the beak) and the darker shading of the feathering around the beak and front part of the head suggest some kind of infection so I hope we're not dealing with a tumor. Could be a real bad case of threadworms, I suppose. We really need some lab done on this one.

Is this bird well-fleshed or does she feel pretty thin?

Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, one more question, I must take the pigeon with me to the vet? have to do injection with vitamin K?
> 
> Dana


May be best to take him into the vet, this way he can examine for cysts and could even scope inside to see if he see anything bleeding. You would want to make sure it is vitamin K1 (phytonadione) as there are a number of kinds of vitamin K, and this one has low toxicity. Call him, and see what he says. Yes, vitamin K is injectable.

Yes, switch to the Cipro and although possible, it is less likely, since you have had this little one for a few days, that a kick is responsible for the sudden bleeding.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I will take right now the bird and I will run to my vet...

Thanks, 
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I will take right now the bird and I will run to my vet...
> 
> Thanks,
> Dana


OK good, when you get back. don't forget to post up a weight for her, as Pidgey asked for, so we can get a better idea of her current body condition. Also, because they can have tumors/growths/fluids, that can make a weighting on the scale deceiving, also let us know how she feels in your hands, especially in the breast area.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

So, now I'm back from the vet, he made vitamin K1 injection and the I ask my vet to take samples for analysis. Tomorrow at this time comes analysis result, I pray for her to not die until tomorrow.
Karyn, in my hand she feels pretty easy, is thin in chest. 
Today she did not want to eat anything and with such blood in her droppings, I am afraid to give seeds to eat. Do you think would be better only feed her by hand with corn bread, bread and some cooked rice?
She weight 275 gr.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I forgot to tell you that the vet examined her cloaca and not see anything unusual. Her cloaca is not swollen as it was Bella, is normal and can see a little blood.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, let's for one day, hold off on her food, and just provide the electrolytes for now, by doing this we will have less activity in the area to give a bit of time for the vitamin K to work. What you can do is a few times today, switch out the regular hydration fluid for one with a higher glucose content (you can use honey) to give her some extra energy and calories for the 24h. To do this to the regular hydration fluid add 1 teaspoon (5mL) of honey to every 60mL of the hydration fluid. You can not give this all day long as because of the higher glucose level the body will treat this more like a food, than fluids to hydrate, so she will need the regular hydration fluids most of the day.

Please keep us updated on her bleeding, did the vet have any other comments? At 275g she is light, but going one day without food will not be a problem tomorrow morning you can start hand-feeding her the cornbread through the day, hold the seeds for another day. With the Cipro the next dose I want you to up it to 0.15cc just to get a little high level of the med in her system, then on you can give the regular 0.10cc.

As usual, very fast action on your part, let's hope we can get this bleeding stopped, good job.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

I suppose it's also possible that she might have ingested (swallowed) something with a sharp edge or point to it that has done damage somewhere in the GI. I guess that would have to be confirmed with an X-Ray.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I understand Karyn. The blood is not so fluid as it was at first, now is more clots. My vet to have any other comments???...never seen anything like this and was amazed when I told him what treatment I give her and how many things I know about pigeon diseases. Vet even asked me for advice for a bird that has canker and he gave the Baytril only treatment and condition has not improved. I told him that canker is treated only with metronidazole/flagyl, I give him the dosage for metronidazole.... I know you can not believe something like this, but unfortunately this happened first time with Robin. Well, now I had a chance to say to my Vet that Baytril not treat canker, only Metronidazole treat canker. I do not know if he will listen my advice, he told me that he thinks Metronidazole is too weak to treat canker...but I know I've given thought.

Dana


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## Pidgey

If he speaks English and can read an English veterinary books, a very good one can be seen online. There's a link on here somewhere, I'll go fetch it.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, here it is:

Avian Medicine: Principles and Application

VERY comprehensive.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Pidgey said:


> Okay, here it is:
> 
> Avian Medicine: Principles and Application
> 
> VERY comprehensive.
> 
> Pidgey


This is very, very good Pidgey, I will tell him tomorrow aboute this, thank you!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, I understand Karyn. The blood is not so fluid as it was at first, now is more clots. My vet to have any other comments???...never seen anything like this and was amazed when I told him what treatment I give her and how many things I know about pigeon diseases. Vet even asked me for advice for a bird that has canker and he gave the Baytril only treatment and condition has not improved. I told him that canker is treated only with metronidazole/flagyl, I give him the dosage for metronidazole.... I know you can not believe something like this, but unfortunately this happened first time with Robin. Well, now I had a chance to say to my Vet that Baytril not treat canker, only Metronidazole treat canker. I do not know if he will listen my advice, he told me that he thinks Metronidazole is too weak to treat canker...but I know I've given thought.
> 
> Dana


Dana, yes, do give him the link Pidgey posted and also follow up with him to make sure he has started Metronidazole treatment, as you now know, and advised , only Metronidazole (or other Nitroimidazoles) will treat and cure canker, we don't want another bird to suffer the fate of Robin (you may have saved many birds going to the vet and letting him now know this). Glad to hear some clotting has started, let's hope it stops soon. Good no obvious cloacal cysts were observed or swellings.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Well, right now the dropping looks in this way...I think that works good vitamin K.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

OK Dana, looks good, while not out of the woods, your quick action may just have saved this little guys' life, not too many people would be out the door, on the way to the vets', within a few minutes of being told a vitamin K shot is needed, for a feral they just rescued. Not sure what is wrong yet, but at least she has stopped bleeding to death, I can breath a bit easier now. You really are one of a kind .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Thanks Karyn, you don't know how happy I am that we stopped bleeding and maybe, how you say, I will save her life. Right now I give her Cipro, here is now 8 pm, so tomorrow morning I will give you news about her.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, the bird passed safely over night. I woke up many times to check how it feels and has not done at all the blood. This morning I gave her to eat some bread and some sunflower hearts, just a few. Do you think I can put the bowl with seeds in the box, only small seeds? 
We do it again today, vitamin K injection? Afternoon I have to go to the vet to get the result of analysis.

This morning I feed very well Bella and I filled the crop, I gave the last dose of Cipro, I kissed her many times and I release her. I think that is extremely happy to return to her home after this ugly disease. She feels great and is perfectly healthy now, this morning Bella weight 354gr, I weighed before I give her food. 

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, I am glad she made it safely through last night. For now, no more sunflower hearts, just the cornbread and some small seeds, not too much, just enough to let her feel like she is eating herself, for the next day mostly cornbread, as this will be easy for her to digest and help put weight back on her. Keep up the Metronidazole and Cipro and we'll see how things go. Maybe tomorrow or the next day you can let her have her full diet back.

With the vet, no don't give another vitamin K injection, there looks to be no blood at all, not even spotting, what you could do is see if he will pre-load an injection into a syringe for you to bring home to give, just in case she does start to bleed again and it is the weekend or he is closed, an injection is not hard to give and you can keep it in the refrigerator.

Well, I guess one out, another in, you did a super job with Bella, 354g is a very good weight for her and I wish her well, I am sure she is happy to be back home as well, maybe you will see her around again . I guess the new one can get an upgrade to Bella's old cage to give her a little more room, with a better view .


Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I will I ask my vet for a syringe with vitamin K injection, for home. The problem is that I have not never done injections and I do not know if I can do it. I am a person who almost faints when sees blood, so I don't have a power to shot an injection and my husband is like me, maybe even worse at this things.
With Bella, I'm very sure that tomorrow I will see her when will come to eat with my back flock.

I send you some new pictures with Coko, is doing very well. In the pictures is very angry to my photo camera and he beat me.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok Karyn, I will I ask my vet for a syringe with vitamin K injection, for home. The problem is that I have not never done injections and I do not know if I can do it. I am a person who almost faints when sees blood, so I don't have a power to shot an injection and my husband is like me, maybe even worse at this things.
> With Bella, I'm very sure that tomorrow I will see her when will come to eat with my back flock.
> 
> I send you some new pictures with Coko, is doing very well. In the pictures is very angry to my photo camera and he beat me.
> 
> Dana


Dana, I understand, but there will be no blood and I will give you very clear instructions on how to give it, it will only take a few seconds to do, I don't think we will need to do this, but best be prepared just in case. Coko does look good, glad he is slowly making his way back to health.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I returned to the vet now. I'm a little bit upset because he told me that the analysis is not out anything, the result of analysis has not shown any disease. I do not know how can this happen!!! So, I had to come back home to take the bird again and bring her to the clinic again to take samples for analysis. So, tomorrow afternoon I hope to hear the outcome of the analysis. He gave me a 1ml syringe, 0.40cc with vitamin K. 
I think we will call her Lolly. Today I noticed that Lolly began to drink more water, she eat some rice and wheat, it's good that he wanted to eat something. Anyway, from yesterday today she feels a little bit better, yesterday did not move at all.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I returned to the vet now. I'm a little bit upset because he told me that the analysis is not out anything, the result of analysis has not shown any disease. I do not know how can this happen!!! So, I had to come back home to take the bird again and bring her to the clinic again to take samples for analysis. So, tomorrow afternoon I hope to hear the outcome of the analysis. He gave me a 1ml syringe, 0.40cc with vitamin K.
> I think we will call her Lolly. Today I noticed that Lolly began to drink more water, she eat some rice and wheat, it's good that he wanted to eat something. Anyway, from yesterday today she feels a little bit better, yesterday did not move at all.
> 
> Dana


Dana, not all diseases and infections will show up from a fecal exam, so I am not sure if having another exam done, and spending the money, will turn up a different result. The biggest thing we want to make sure of in the exam is if there is an elevated presence of cocci and/or any worm eggs, as the meds she is on right now will treat most other infections. Why don't we wait a day or two, until a decent amount of droppings are being produced, so you can collect a good amount to mix together and then repeat the exam.

Glad to hear today she is eating feeling better, this is much better than yesterday morning . Like I said, I don't think we will need to to treat her again with the vitamin k, at least I hope not, but good to know you have some on hand..., did you check to see if he started the bird with canker on Metronidazole? Coincidentally, I also have a bird named Lolly , she is a little sweetheart.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I looked on the local forums to see what other people say about the pigeons analysis. Most of the people say that the clinics do not know how to take samples and certainly are not good for birds analysis. This is about analysis, here we don't have many vet who knows pigeons. I'll see what he will say tomorrow. Yes he made only fecal exam, I ask him today if it is possible to make besides fecal exam an blood exam and told me that only he do fecal exam.
Well, I ask him aboute the bird with canker and he told me that she died this morning....unfortunately it was too late.
I gave him the link to the book online medicine and I told him to check out what I suggested aboute canker, that Baytril not treat canker, Metronidazole only treats canker. I hope he will listen my advice, more than that I can not do. He is the doctor and I can not insist more than that. I'm glad that I had the chance to start this discussion with him and maybe this will finally convince him what I said.

Glad to hear you have a bird called Lolly, a pleasant coincidence.

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Make sure the vet understands that the true name for canker is "Trichomoniasis". It is a disease that several animal species (including people) can get in one form or another.

Uhh... you might not think of people as "animals" but I can assure you, some are!

Including me.

Woof!

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes Pidgey, I told him that Canker is Trichomoniasis (especially that in our languange the name of this disease is Tricomonoza) and I think he understood.
Lolly stand still and is something that I want to say, I do not find it normal. So, I gave him food yesterday afternoon, not too much, just enough to feel he has something in crop, some corn bread, bread and she also picked a few seeds of rice and wheat. At 8 pm, when I gave her Cipro, I noticed that still had food in crop and I didn't gave him anything. This morning was still food in the crop and overnight she made just few droppings and more water. I have not given anything to eat in this morning, just Cipro at 8am, I do not know why not digest the food.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Yes Pidgey, I told him that Canker is Trichomoniasis (especially that in our languange the name of this disease is Tricomonoza) and I think he understood.
> Lolly stand still and is something that I want to say, I do not find it normal. So, I gave him food yesterday afternoon, not too much, just enough to feel he has something in crop, some corn bread, bread and she also picked a few seeds of rice and wheat. At 8 pm, when I gave her Cipro, I noticed that still had food in crop and I didn't gave him anything. This morning was still food in the crop and overnight she made just few droppings and more water. I have not given anything to eat in this morning, just Cipro at 8am, I do not know why not digest the food.
> 
> Dana


Dana, glad you noticed this condition. Sometimes with these abdominal conditions we can get some malfunctioning of their digestive system, part of the reason we want to give them food that is easy to digest, like the cornbread or pellets, no more hard at all food right now, Also no cornbread as well right now, let's see if we can get the crop to empty, before giving her more food. Can you check with your pharmacist friend and see if she has a product called Lactulose, this is a mild laxative and may help her a bit in a few ways and also a med called Metoclopramide, which will help the crop to empty quicker. Can you post up a photo of whatever droppings she has done.

We may need to make a change in med again if things do not improve shortly, either back to the Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Chloramphenicol, Cipro/Baytril is a very good medicine, but sometimes there are bacteria that are not sensitive to it, this may be the case here, as her GI was working OK while on the TMS antibiotic..., Dana do you have any of the Nystatin left? if yes, start her on this.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

I took the pictures now, this are the dropping she made in four hours. Yes I Nystatin and I will give her right now. I will go right now to my pharmacist friend to ask for this meds.


----------



## Dobato

OK, some food is moving, may be just a bit slow right now. At some point I guess we are going to have to teach you how to tube feed (liquid food) for times they can not process any solid food at all.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, I'm back from pharmacy, I bought Metoclopramide and Lactulose- lichid oral 66,7%. Yes Karyn, you have to teach me how to tube feed if is need.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, very good, of the Lactulose, I want you to give her 0.30mL (6 drops) twice day and with the Metoclopramide we have to make a suspension. To do this crush up one of the 10mg Metoclopramide pills into a very fine powder, then add 1cc very warm water to this and stir, then add 9mL of honey and stir again, for a total of 10mL @ 1mg/mL. You will give 0.15cc (3 drops) of this twice a day, keep in the refrigerator and stir very well before any use.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, thank you Karyn! 

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I called my vet now and told me that the exam result is coccidiosis. What we are doing now, we change Cipro?
I give her Lactulose and Metoclopramide, immediately after you told me and now her dropping looks different, but I still feel some food in her crop. What to do, should I give her anything to eat today?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I called my vet now and told me that the exam result is coccidiosis. What we are doing now, we change Cipro?
> I give her Lactulose and Metoclopramide, immediately after you told me and now her dropping looks different, but I still feel some food in her crop. What to do, should I give her anything to eat today?
> 
> Dana


More food looks to be moving from her crop, which is good, but no seeds at all for the next 2-3 days, nothing hard, only cornbread, but no cornbread right now, maybe later today, once her crop empties some more.

We have to move her back onto the Trimethoprim/Sulfa to treat the coccidiosis. So for now, no seeds, she will be getting, Nystatin, Lactulose, Metoclopramide, Metronidazole and Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Keep her on hydration fluids for water, once you see her droppings do not have much solids in them and you can feel her crop has emptied, you can hand feed her some cornbread, but not too much maybe 1/4 crop full for now. Once we see her crop/GI is starting to work well, we can start to increase her food.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand.
I forgot to tell you that this morning I saw Bella when we gave them food. She peck a little bread, was not too hungry like others pigeons. And I saw her again, an hour ago, in the car parking and as we suspect she has a mate,a bird similar with Piu’s color…..they kissed and it was so sweet to see them together. I imagine how happy Bella is now!
Karyn, do you think they understand that you’ve helped and saved?

Thank you Karyn,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok Karyn, I understand.
> I forgot to tell you that this morning I saw Bella when we gave them food. She peck a little bread, was not too hungry like others pigeons. And I saw her again, an hour ago, in the car parking and as we suspect she has a mate,a bird similar with Piu’s color…..they kissed and it was so sweet to see them together. I imagine how happy Bella is now!
> Karyn, do you think they understand that you’ve helped and saved?
> 
> Thank you Karyn,
> Dana


Oh Dana, I am very happy you saw Bella today. Yes, I do believe they understand in their own way that you have helped them, why do you think you can't get rid of Kimy . Glad to hear her mate and her have found each other again, this is sweet.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Well, I am so very happy for Bella and maby this days I'll make a few pictures for you to see her, maybe I'm lucky to catch her with his mate

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Bleed again, not too much but I'm worried.


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## Dobato

The last shot of vitamin K has worn off so we need to give another shot, before it gets worse. Can you go to the vet?... or I can help you give the injection you have on hand.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Can we given by mouth? If no, I have to go to the vet, I'm not sure if I can make the injection.

Dana


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## Dobato

No, must be injected.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

What about Trimethoprim/Sulfa? can I give her because now is 8 o'clock, time for med.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Ok, I will run to my vet right now.


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> What about Trimethoprim/Sulfa? can I give her because now is 8 o'clock, time for med.
> 
> Dana


Yes give the med. We can do a Suq-Q injection, watch this video and see if you think you can do this. This is for a vaccine, but it will be the same for the vitamin K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhHmReK9SJ0

OK, if there is time for the vet, go.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

No Karyn, I can't do this!!! I have to run to my vet. I saw to my vet that he made the injection in the chest, not like in this video.

Dana


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## Dobato

OK go, I'll explain later.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I'm back from vet, he made the shot. I gave her Trimethoprim/Sulfa and will see how it feels tomorrow.
Bleed as you see in the picture, not too much blood, but I think will stop in short time.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, there are two common ways to give parenteral medicine (medicine by needle into the body) of a bird and they are directly into the muscle (IM; Intramuscular Injection ) and by Sub-Q/SQ (subcutaneous injection) under the skin. I know a few days ago you said giving an injection would be hard for you, then today when you said you could not do it, I thought that if you saw you could also do it by the Sub-Q method, you may have been able to manage this and I remembered a link I posted for another member showing how this is done. Your vet giving the vitamin K by IM, into the breast muscle was correct, but it could also be done Sub-Q.

I was thinking perhaps part of what was bothering you was you feeling by jabbing the needle into the muscle you would be hurting the bird, so I linked the video to show you there was another way of just slipping the needle under the skin, where bird most times is not even aware, because the needle is do sharp, and it does not take long either. I blame myself because I should have shown you this link earlier so you could ask questions and I would have time to explain both methods to you better.

Glad you were able to make the vet in time, and started the Trimethoprim/Sulfa, Please keep us updated on Lolly's condition, she is going to be challenging for us I think.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Ok, tomorrow morning I'll updated on Lolly's condition, I was lucky to catch in time my vet.
Do not worry Karyn, I could never make a shot. Is very hard to look when the needle enters the skin.....well, this is me and I hate myself for this.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Ok, tomorrow morning I'll updated on Lolly's condition, I was lucky to catch in time my vet.
> Do not worry Karyn, I could never make a shot. Is very hard to look when the needle enters the skin.....well, this is me and I hate myself for this.
> 
> Thank you,
> Dana


Dana, you do just great, so don't say that. Let's see what tomorrow brings, glad you noticed it early.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Let's start watching the respiration rate of this bird, too (if we haven't already and I just missed it). Count how many breaths she takes per minute.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, the bleed stop one hour after the injection. After we spoke last night, I gave to Lolly some corn bread (crop was empty), but just a little and after an hour she started to vomit the food. This morning her droppings looks increasingly worse, what you see in these pictures are overnight droppings. This morning after I gave her Trimethoprim/Sulfa, when I put her in the box she barely stand up. Now the crop seems empty, I feel some lichid in her crop but I'm afraid to give her food. Do you think that it might be better to give her liquid food?
Today is the fifth day since we started the treatment and I worry because is no improvement in her condition, maybe it has something worse than coccidiosis....I don't know, it's just a thought.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Pidgey said:


> Let's start watching the respiration rate of this bird, too (if we haven't already and I just missed it). Count how many breaths she takes per minute.
> 
> Pidgey


Pidgey, she takes 27 or 28 breath per minute. I weighed it again now and she has 290 grams.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, the bleed stop one hour after the injection. After we spoke last night, I gave to Lolly some corn bread (crop was empty), but just a little and after an hour she started to vomit the food. This morning her droppings looks increasingly worse, what you see in these pictures are overnight droppings. This morning after I gave her Trimethoprim/Sulfa, when I put her in the box she barely stand up. Now the crop seems empty, I feel some lichid in her crop but I'm afraid to give her food. Do you think that it might be better to give her liquid food?
> Today is the fifth day since we started the treatment and I worry because is no improvement in her condition, maybe it has something worse than coccidiosis....I don't know, it's just a thought.
> 
> Thank you,
> Dana


Dana, the breaths you counted, 27-28 breaths a minute, would be what I consider in the normal range, we are usually looking to see 28-32 breaths a minute to feel the breathing is OK.

I was going to speak to you this morning about what you brought up, yes, I do think there is something worse than coccidiosis wrong with Lolly. Her droppings look worse because they are what are mostly bile droppings, which means a lot of food/fecal solids, but other things the body produces in the digestive process, this is not a huge concern, as she did not get much food yesterday, and what she got she vomited back up, so droppings like this would not be unusual in a bird that has not really eaten.

I think the things wrong with Lolly, starting with bad and going to the worse are, internal cloacal cysts, reproductive infection, hardware disease (a piece of metal in her gizzard) or some form of cancer, such as ovarian adenocarcinoma. I think the coccidiosis is a secondary issue, meaning an opportunistic infection cropping up in a weakened bird.

Because of where you are and the lack of knowledge about birds trying to really determine what is wrong is going to be much more challenging. Normally about now, or even before this, we would want to take an x-ray to see if we could determine, if there is any obvious abnormalities in her internal organs, or whether a tumor could be spotted, and an x-ray would also pick up on any foreign metal objects that shouldn't be there. Do you think you vet, outside of the metal, could look at an x-ray of a bird and know whether there is something not right?

Can you ask your vet what coccidiostats he has on hand, such as Amprolium, Diclazuril, Toltrazuril or Clazuril (there are other, this is a few common ones for pigeons) that he uses for other animals. If he has one of these, we could switch to it for the coccidiosis and put her back on Cipro/Baytril, which seemed to agree with her more.

One of the things that the Metoclopramide you are giving does is not only helps empty the crop quicker, but help with regurgitation (vomiting). I want you to stop the Nystatin and give her the Metoclopramide 1/2 before trying to feed and food again, this will give it time to get into her blood stream to help prevent her wanting to throw up. You can also give her some glucose water as well for energy. I have to run out, as I am running late for an appointment, but let's start by seeing what your vet says and we'll talk a little later.


Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I called my vet and I asked him what kind of coccidiosis is and he said that he did not know, just know that is coccidiosis. To be honest, I do not trust him at all. I think he just said that he found coccidiosis to get rid of me and somehow to justify the money he took me for exam. I asked for x-ray and said that is not sure if he will saw something. I think she is afraid to take my money for x-ray, without saying anything conclusive. Karyn, is not a vet who knows birds. Was easy for him with Kimy and Big because they have not had any internal disease, were only fractures and he gave Baytril randomly, because now I understand that for any problem or disease he prescribes always Baytril. 
I don’t want to insist more than that to makes him feel humiliated because he gives me to understand that not mastered avian medicine. I search on the internet, on local forum but nobody knows a good avian vet here. You know that I am willing to do anything to save the bird life and if I will find a good avian vet, be sure that I'll immediately run to him, but unfortunately we have to handle it.
Karyn, we held two days on Cipro treatment and nothing has changed, even worse her condition. The same thing with Trimethoprim/Sulfa, does not respond to treatment. I want to ask you if it would be better to start with something stronger, maybe she respond to other treatment. Breaks my heart to see her suffer like this and can not do anything to change this situation.
Anyway, she start to bleed again….and I will go to my vet again for another K vit. shot.

Thank you,
Dana


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## Pidgey

If it's a tumor, the bleeding won't really stop. Does the back end of the bird feel enlarged in any way?

If you were to get an X-Ray, simply get the film, bring it home, put it up against a light source and take a picture of it that we can see and we'll "read" it, if necessary. Hardware disease would show up quite obviously; a tumor would be a tad more difficult. But with the avian books that we have, it's not going to be that difficult to figure out (there's even a radiology section in that book link that I gave you).

Actually, I was kind of thinking that if it were hardware disease, we'd see an increase of the respiration rate due to the blood loss. Since there isn't any, I'm more worried about a tumor although the recent blood loss isn't enough to warrant much by way of anemia. The thinking goes that if the hemorrhage is constant, the body will actually get used to that and start making new blood cells faster.

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

Pidgey, we can do an x-ray and bring it home and post it, but I'm wonder, if is a tumor or a foreign body inside, what we do after that? Who will operate this bird? I can not leave Lolly in the hands of a vet without experience who will experience on my bird and then finaly die.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey thanks for your comments.

As Pidgey says, if it is a tumor the bleeding won't really stop, unles the tumor is dealt with. Us using the vitamin K is really supposed to be a stop gap measure for bleeding, like applying pressure and wrapping a wound until stitches can be done. The problem is the "wound" is inside and there is only so long we can apply pressure, by giving vitamin K, before real corrective action needs to be taken. 

There still is a chance this could be infection related, so to that end it may be time to try the Chloramphenicol, as there really are not many bacteria that are not sensitive to it, where as, I know both with both Baytril and Trimethoprim/Sulfa there are more instances of bacteria that are not sensitive to them.

As I mentioned, when you first got the Chloramphenicol, there are cautions with it, so when handling it I would like you to wear latex glove when handling it (as also mention the risks are very low, one in the 20,000+, but best safe). You would make the suspension much like the Cipro, you will add 4 capsules (600mg) to 5mL of honey and you will have a 12% suspension (120mg/mL) you will give her 0.25cc (30mg) twice a day.

I was also going to suggest doing what Pidgey recommend, taking an x-ray and then you taking a few photos of it on the light board and then I would PM you my email address and I would have my vet have a look at them. If we don't see any obvious "hardware", I am not sure where that leaves us, as if there is something found that does need an operative procedure, it would seem nobody over there could do it, and Dana I know you, you would, spend what it takes if needed, but I don't think an operation would be feasible with her.

I want to put it on you mind we might not win this battle for Lolly, but we will try our best, but as you mention internal problems really limit our options, let's hope it still is something infectious.


Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, so today at 8pm I will give her first dose of Chloramphenicol. Now I will go to my vet to make the vit. K shot and I will make an x-ray. Will talk when i will get back from vet.
And Pidgey, you put me an question "Does the back end of the bird feel enlarged in any way?", no, the back end is normal.

Thank you,
Dana


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## Vulturescu

I'm back now, I did the injection of vit. K and the vet told me that they don't have good X-ray equipment in birds. So, that's why when I ask him today on the phone, he hesitated, he do not have time to explain me this because he had to go into surgery.
He also told me that only on the University of Medicine I can try for an X-ray, but is not guaranteed that it will come good. I'm sorry, this is Romania, we are 20 years behind technology!!!

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I'm back now, I did the injection of vit. K and the vet told me that they don't have good X-ray equipment in birds. So, that's why when I ask him today on the phone, he hesitated, he do not have time to explain me this because he had to go into surgery.
> He also told me that only on the University of Medicine I can try for an X-ray, but is not guaranteed that it will come good. I'm sorry, this is Romania, we are 20 years behind technology!!!
> 
> Dana


Dana, thanks for the explanation. We will just continue to do the best with can with the resources we have, and hope we catch a lucky break (that this is indeed an infection that can be treated) for Lolly.

Karyn


----------



## Dobato

Dana, PMed me this morning to let me know that over the last few days Lolly's condition continued to worsen, the bleeding started back in full force and she died in her arms a short while ago. Dana you are truly an angle thanks for trying so very hard for Lolly, bless you, and rest in peace sweet little Lolly.

Karyn


----------



## Quazar

It was so sad to hear this.
Unfortunately as most of us know, when things are so far advanced because they initially hide any illness, 
sometimes theres not a lot we can do except try to make their last few days as comfortable as possible.
Dana, you never cease to amaze me with the speed and urgency you get onto things. 
If any sick birds near you have any chance at all, they are certainly in the right place when they find you, 
as no one could do more than you.
Those that you have helped and released so far are living proof of that, 
and the ones you dont see so often are probably too busy telling their friends where to go


----------



## Vulturescu

Thank everyone for suport. Karyn, thank you very much for all your help, you are such a great person and without you I would not have saved so many birds life. My husband buried Lolly near our building, now she rests in peace my little sweet angel. I am so sorry I could not do more for her. If I could give years of my life I would have given from all my heart and nothing would make me happier now. I can not never forget her eyes, looked into my eyes all the time and died with his eyes open, looking at me in my arms.
I will post last pictures with Lolly, this morning has a swollen eye, was very weak and had to help her get up on his feet.
Rest in peace sweet Lolly!!!

Dana


----------



## Luffy

Dana, I have been following your thread like I always do & I am so sorry for your loss. But I am sure it would have been the least painful for the bird, compared to what it might have been if it was out alone. You truly did your best. You are really a guardian angel for them. 

Quazar's pic is really sweet and I am sure its true.

RIP Lolly.


----------



## Vulturescu

Some pictures with beautiful Bella and his mate, she is doing very well and I see her every day around.

Dana


----------



## spirit wings

wow, she looks so happy!:0


----------



## Dobato

Dana, thanks for the photos, very good to see, and hear, she is doing well and you see her every day .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

I made a new video to see how it fells now Coko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjfMB77DygE . PMV symptoms began to heal and torticollis passed but still has some strange moves, but very rarely. Anyway, is much better now.
Karyn, do you believe it is still contagious PMV now, after almost seven weeks, we have Coko from March 4. I ask this because in this way I can let Kimy to visit him, I think Coko wants to see a bird after so long isolation.

Thank you,
Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I made a new video to see how it fells now Coko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjfMB77DygE . PMV symptoms began to heal and torticollis passed but still has some strange moves, but very rarely. Anyway, is much better now.
> Karyn, do you believe it is still contagious PMV now, after almost seven weeks, we have Coko from March 4. I ask this because in this way I can let Kimy to visit him, I think Coko wants to see a bird after so long isolation.
> 
> Thank you,
> Dana


Dana, Coko looks like he is recovering nicely. I watched the video and he seems to still have a bit neurological symptoms, almost like instead of an episode of torticollis he now just has a bit of a passing neurological tic, which should hopefully pass in time as well. I will ask Cynthia (Feefo) to have a look in on the thread again for her thoughts on letting Kimy visit, or waiting a bit longer.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes still have a bit neurological symptoms, especially when I put my hands on him and then becomes more stressed. When is quiet/relax in his cage he looks exactly like a normal bird, has the normal movements. In the video, I touched him with my hand to see how it reacts when it is very stressed.

Dana


----------



## Feefo

Sorry for the delay in replying, Dobato. 

Dana, pigeons stop shedding the virus within 6 weeks of infection, so if he was showing symptoms of PMV 7 weeks ago he won't be shedding the virus now. However, the virus gets on the feathers when the pigeon preens and when it poops and I read that it can persist there for a while, so I make certain mine have a few baths before they mix with other pigeons. I am probably too cautious but I prefer to play it as safe as I can.


----------



## Vulturescu

Thank you for answer Cynthia,

as you say, if they stop spread the virus within 6 weeks of infection, this means that Coko definitely now is no longer contagious. With the bathroom is not a problem, he take a bath almost every day, so he's feathers are very clean.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Some new pic with Coko and Kimy. Coko is doing very well, does not have any symptoms of PMV, behaves like a normal bird. I do not know how long do I have to keep him inside, if he can be released or be still kept in the house for another time. 

Kimy began to leave during the day, do not stay glued to my window all the time, maybe it goes in search of happiness, a mate.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Hi Dana, glad to hear all is well with Kimy and Coko and all the signs that Coko has PMV have now gone. I would still keep him a bit loner to make sure there are no relapses and maybe one day soon Kimy will bring a friend back with him .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I made few shorts videos today with Coko, in this way you can see how good he feels (sorry aboute poor quality!).
If you think is better to keep him a bit longer, it's ok will keep him, I do not mind but how long do you think need to be kept him? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXmlzJZ9w4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozt-3cZOTiI

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I made few shorts videos today with Coko, in this way you can see how good he feels (sorry aboute poor quality!).
> If you think is better to keep him a bit longer, it's ok will keep him, I do not mind but how long do you think need to be kept him?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXmlzJZ9w4
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozt-3cZOTiI
> 
> Dana


Dana, the quality was just fine, and Coko looks really good. I will check with Cynthia about release timing for him.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok, thank you Karyn, I will wait to see what Cynthia says aboute Coko.

Karyn, I have to tell you abote this white sweet bird that you see in the last pictures with Coko. It is a hen, and we call her Alba (in my language mean white), she is a very clever bird. She noted that Kimy enters in the house, she saw where he eat and expected to leave the area Kimy and then come innside to eats. Kimy once caught her in the house at his food and beat her but she still comes to eat, is so beautiful and smart bird. 


Dana


----------



## Dobato

Alba is indeed a beauty, and cleaver too, and how is Kimy ever going to find a girl if he beats all the pretty ones .

I heard back from Cynthia and she says he is ready to go back whenever you are ready to release him at this point. So it could be today, or in the next few days, if you want to keep him a bit to say goodbye. You have done such a super job with Coko and I am sure he will be very happy, with spring and mating season having arrived to be back with his flock.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Thank you Karyn, 
I think we'll keep Coko few days or maby another week, no more. As usual we will be very hard after all this time to see Coko how it goes, but I know that he will be very happy returning at his home. And who knows, maybe Coko will come back to us how Kimy did.
I will tell you when we'll release him.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Thank you Karyn,
> I think we'll keep Coko few days or maby another week, no more. As usual we will be very hard after all this time to see Coko how it goes, but I know that he will be very happy returning at his home. And who knows, maybe Coko will come back to us how Kimy did.
> I will tell you when we'll release him.
> 
> Dana


Sounds like a fine plan, I know it will be hard to see him go for you, but smile that you gave him a second chance at life . Let him spend as much time as you can at your window, so he locks in his surroundings as best he can from that vantage point, this may help him with finding his way to you again, also, release him at your window, and he can then choose where he wants to go.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, Coko is a free and happy bird now!!! This morning we said goodbye to Coko, I opened the window and I let him go. He spent a little time on the ledge and was very surprised that finally managed to get out. Then, after few minutes he took off and stood on the roof of the building, after that I didn't saw where he flew.
You can see Coko in the pictures and the first picture is from this morning before to remove him from the cage, was very relaxed for the last time in his cage.

Maybe Coko will come back to us, as Kimy did, Kimy returned after three days....so must have patience.

Thank you Karyn for all your help, without you I could not save Coko!

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

And some pictures to remember Coko in the first day when he arrived in my hands.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, a day to celebrate ! Coko has made the long journey back and is now free once again to live his life as it was meant to be. You did a great job with him, and I know there were points is his recovery it was hard for you, but you nursed him through the worst and with your care he has recovered. I wanted to say thanks to Cynthia (Feefo) who's input on Coko's PMV issues was really invaluable. Well done again.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

You're right Karyn, we must thank to Cynthia for all the help in PMV issues. Now I can say that I have a little experience in pigeon's PMV and I'm glad that I learned so much about pigeon diseases.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi everyone,

Coko returned to us the day after we release him in to the wild, quickly found his way back to us and I was very happy. Since then comes every day to eat but he doesn't want to enter in the house like Kimy. He just eat right near the window like you can see in the pictures. 
However, Coko feels well and most important is that he comes to eating and I see him every day.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Now because we have no sick birds in the house we think that if will be good to help the pigeon with the string foot, we call him Lame. 
Lame disappeared a few days and now he's back again to eat. I noticed the thread that tied the leg he managed to remove it but the foot is as bad as before. Walk as hard like before with that foot and it is no difference from when the thread was tied to his leg. Here is a short video with Lame, see how it goes with that leg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3lIe4fQVE0 .

Now I took a picture as close as I could to his foot without thread, is the second picture. In the first picture can see a red thread tied to his foot.

Well, I want to know if I can do something to his foot because will be very difficult to catch him and that's why I do not want to catch him for nothing and scare him. I do not know if I can do something now when the thread has fallen and remained the same tight leg. I think that his foot, stand so long in that position will be possible to remain so?

Thank you,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Now because we have no sick birds in the house we think that if will be good to help the pigeon with the string foot, we call him Lame.
> Lame disappeared a few days and now he's back again to eat. I noticed the thread that tied the leg he managed to remove it but the foot is as bad as before. Walk as hard like before with that foot and it is no difference from when the thread was tied to his leg. Here is a short video with Lame, see how it goes with that leg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3lIe4fQVE0 .
> 
> Now I took a picture as close as I could to his foot without thread, is the second picture. In the first picture can see a red thread tied to his foot.
> 
> Well, I want to know if I can do something to his foot because will be very difficult to catch him and that's why I do not want to catch him for nothing and scare him. I do not know if I can do something now when the thread has fallen and remained the same tight leg. I think that his foot, stand so long in that position will be possible to remain so?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Dana


Dana, until you get a bird in your hands, for very close examination, it will be hard to say with 100% certainly that there is not still some very fine thread/filament still binding the foot together, that would be hard to see from any kind of distance. So it would still be a good idea to catch Lame, so his foot can be examined very carefully up close. Once we are sure there is no fine thread, or remove what was hard to see from a distance, we can do some physio and stretching of his foot, to stretch out the joints and tendons that may be frozen from being bound in one position for so long. Also, we can fashion a "shoe" for this foot to tape the toes into a proper position that he will wear (inside your home for a while), so we are doing the opposite of what the string did, holding the toes in the right position to let the foot stretch back to a more normal position.

Coko looks very well, glad you get to see him every day, from the look of things he does not look too far away from coming into your home, I guess whatever he decides to do, it's just good for you to have him a round .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Ok Karyn, I understand, so we start hunting Lame. I'll let you know when I have Lame in my hand.

Thank you very much,

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn, Hi everyone,

Seems like the problems for Coko back again. I noticed these days that something is bothers him under the beak. Today I notice that looks like a bump under his beak and I catch him. Inside the mouth is too much sticky saliva and the seeds he eat they stick in his mouth and this bothers him. 

This can be canker? 
I have already given him Metronidazole.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, to be on the safe side I would also add Cipro in as well. This sounds like it could be canker related, but to be safe I would also treat Coko with the Cipro you have as well, this way the two things most like to cause these kind of symptoms will be covered, protozoa (canker) and bacteria.

Glad you caught him early and I don't see any reason he should not soon recover in the next week to ten days.

Give him smaller seeds only for the next day or two.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I will add Cipro and I will give him only smaller seeds.

I see that his droppings are liquid but I'll make some pictures tomorrow with his droppings too see. 
The only damage I did it when I catch it, he has struggled and I pulled several feathers from one of his wing. I'll also put some pictures tomorrow with the wing, I hope he can fly. I'll test him tomorrow.

Thank you Karyn,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> OK Karyn, I will add Cipro and I will give him only smaller seeds.
> 
> I see that his droppings are liquid but I'll make some pictures tomorrow with his droppings too see.
> The only damage I did it when I catch it, he has struggled and I pulled several feathers from one of his wing. I'll also put some pictures tomorrow with the wing, I hope he can fly. I'll test him tomorrow.
> 
> Thank you Karyn,
> 
> Dana


Watch him carefully while he is eating the small seeds to make sure the swelling is not totally impeding his eating, as just liquid for droppings indicates he is not getting food into himself and I know you feed them everyday, so food is not the issue, is he getting any down is.

If you feel he is not able to feed himself well at the moment, hand feed him the cornbread for a few days to give the meds a chance to work. Also, have a look inside his mouth/throat area to see if you see any yellowish/cheesy growths.

The feathers will grow back before too long, don't worry.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I looked in his mouth and I see a little yellow cheesy around the tongue but it is a lot of sticky saliva. However, seems that bothered him because shaking his head and scratch with claw under the beak.

I think last night did not have to much food in it that's why his droppings was liquid. Yesterday he came to eat only when I catch him, in the evening.
I see that in this morning his droppings looks much better. Also you can see in the pictures the plucked wing.

I don't know why happened so suddenly, to getting sick again. He barely escaped of the worst diseases and now my poor Coko gets sick again.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, the droppings look much better, and it does sound like he possibly has canker, so it was good you were able to be his guardian angle again and catch him for treatment. Ask your pharmacist friend if she had a medicine called Tinidazole, it's like Metronidazole as it an anti-protozoal (will kill canker), but is a little different in its chemical structure. Coko was treated not that long ago with Metronidazole and there is a chance that some of the trichomonads he may have (little organisms that cause canker) are resistant to Metronidazole, so by changing medicine we will address this possibility.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

My pharmacist friend is on vacation until July 2, so I had to find another pharmacy. Eventually, I managed to buy Tinidazole, was a little embarrassing because I told them I really need this medicine and the pharmacists thought that I was sick and they started to explain how I must treat my partner and me ...and it was so many people behind me.

So I bought Tinidazole 500 mg pills, wait for instructions of use.

Thank you,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> My pharmacist friend is on vacation until July 2, so I had to find another pharmacy. Eventually, I managed to buy Tinidazole, was a little embarrassing because I told them I really need this medicine and the pharmacists thought that I was sick and they started to explain how I must treat my partner and me ...and it was so many people behind me.
> 
> So I bought Tinidazole 500 mg pills, wait for instructions of use.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Dana


Dana, you will make it the same as the Ciprofloxacin. Grind the pill into very fine powder, add 10mL of honey, stir well, cover and let sit 20 minutes, stir well again, you will have a 5% Tinidazole suspension and give Coko, 0.20cc (10mg) twice a day. Stop the Metronidazole and use the Tinidazole at the next dosing time.

Thanks for making the extra effort to find the medicine for this little guy and for having to be embarrassed .

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, I gave him the first dose of Tinidazole right now and over two hours I'll give him the dose of Cipro. 

I will keep you informed and thank you again for your help.

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I gave him the first dose of Tinidazole right now and over two hours I'll give him the dose of Cipro.
> 
> I will keep you informed and thank you again for your help.
> 
> Dana


Be sure and treat his "partner", too!!!



Pidgey


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey said:


> Be sure and treat his "partner", too!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey


Dana, yes, as Pidgey says, if Coko has a mate you will have to catch her and treat her as well.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Pidgey thanks for the suggestion, we have nothing to worry about this because Coko is single, has no mate. 

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Vulturescu said:


> Pidgey thanks for the suggestion, we have nothing to worry about this because Coko is single, has no mate.
> 
> Dana


Uh, oh... you mean he's not married and faithful to just ONE gal... HE MIGHT BE OUT INFECTING THE ENTIRE FLOCK!!! 

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

You gotta be kidding!!! I really do not want to take home all the flock....are about 50 birds!
Coko is a great lucky punk, the girls run after him all day but he wants to be a great single. Is my beloved boy!

I forgot to mention that Piu found a mate and even my terrorist Kimy found a mate. Both are in love and now we expected to come the grandchildrens!

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Vulturescu said:


> You gotta be kidding!!! I really do not want to take home all the flock....are about 50 birds!
> Coko is a great lucky punk, the girls run after him all day but he wants to be a great single. Is my beloved boy!
> 
> Dana


Yeah, but you're not really watching what he's doin' or who he's wooin' after dark, are ya'? 

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

By the way, these infections sometimes occur in places like the salivary glands--it's kinda' like when we get the mumps, only worse. That said, this might not be an easy recovery. It's possible to clear the Trichomonads (generally responsible for canker) but still have a bunch of bird puss (the yellow, cheesy stuff) buried in the tissues that other things like bacteria can colonize. So... sometimes, you might have to start an antibiotic therapy to go along with the canker treatment. You're just going to want to test that area with your fingers and gauge whether the lump is getting smaller or not.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

OK Pdgey, I understand what you say but the only thing I don't understand is "gauge whether the lump is getting smaller or not". Please can you explain me with the other words this phrase. 
I'm sorry but sometimes my english has many shortcomings.

Thanks,

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Well, it looks in the picture like he has a lump under his beak, and the size of that is what you will have to feel for--it needs to grow smaller with time and medication. If it doesn't or, worse, actually seems to be getting bigger, then we'll have to start an antibiotic against other bacteria that can cause the same symptoms. You see, that yellow stuff that forms in their throats that we call "canker" doesn't always occur due to the same flagellating protozoa called a "trichomonad"--sometimes the overall symptoms happen because of bacterial infections. Not as often, generally, but it does happen.

The biggest problem with a very serious inflammatory response (that's what all that yellow stuff is: bird pus) in that area is that it's too close to a lot of very important piping (esophagus, trachea, arteries, veins) and wiring (spinal cord) so it's very dangerous. That's why we need to watch it very closely and your fingers are going to have to do most of the "watching", seeing as how the feathers tend to hide things.

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Oh, OK I understand better now. I'll be careful and I'll try to fell with my fingers every day the size of this lump. Yes, he has a lump under his beak, is not very high but as you say we do not know how dangerous it can be.

Thanks Pidgey,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Pidgey, as a precaution for some of the issues you mention, I did have Dana start Coko on Ciprofloxacin, as well as the anti-protozoal she was giving. Dana, are you still giving Coko Cipro as well as the Tinidazole?

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Ya' know... I guess I'm not really expecting a Gram negative... for whatever reason. No sense in starting anything else at the moment, but what other antibiotics do you have "in house", Dana?

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes Karyn, I still giving Coko Cipro as well.

Pidgey, I have a home pharmacy, so I have Trimethoprim/Sulfa, Tetracycline, Doxycycline, Clindamycin, Azithromycin, Chloramphenicol, Amoxicillin, Penicillin potassium fenoximetil, Clorzoxazone.....and if you need something else I can buy when my pharmacist friend comes from the holiday monday.

Dana


----------



## Pidgey

Vulturescu said:


> Yes Karyn, I still giving Coko Cipro as well.
> 
> Pidgey, I have a home pharmacy, so I have Trimethoprim/Sulfa, Tetracycline, Doxycycline, Clindamycin, Azithromycin, Chloramphenicol, Amoxicillin, Penicillin potassium fenoximetil, Clorzoxazone.....and if you need something else I can buy when my pharmacist friend comes from the holiday monday.
> 
> Dana


Wowsville! 

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

The lump begins to decrease, now I palpated and feels a little smaller but I felt a crust over the lump. With my hand I feel under his feathers something hard like a crust. 

However, no longer sticky saliva and now when he eat the seeds no longer stick in the mouth. And no longer see any yellow cheese around his tongue, was a little before but now it is not at all.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> The lump begins to decrease, now I palpated and feels a little smaller but I felt a crust over the lump. With my hand I feel under his feathers something hard like a crust.
> 
> However, no longer sticky saliva and now when he eat the seeds no longer stick in the mouth. And no longer see any yellow cheese around his tongue, was a little before but now it is not at all.
> 
> Dana


Sounds good, keep doing what you are doing, thanks for the update.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

I made some new pictures with Coko, can see in the pictures that the lump decreased. Now under the beak I fell this peel/crust, I think this peel would fall eventually.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

And a picture where you can see the wing from which I pulled several feathers when I caught him. 
Think should all feathers grow back before release him?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> And a picture where you can see the wing from which I pulled several feathers when I caught him.
> Think should all feathers grow back before release him?
> 
> Dana


Dana, yes, that crust I would expect to disappear in the near future. Good to hear the lump continues to shrink. It's hard to tell how many flights he lost on that wing with it closed, do you think you could spread out the wing, like a fan, and take another photo.

In any event, I would like to see him take two full weeks of treatment on both meds so he will be with you for a little while yet, outside of any wing issues.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I will take a picture of his wing spread. Maybe when we finish the treatment his feathers will grow back, if you say that he will be with me for two weeks.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> OK Karyn, I will take a picture of his wing spread. Maybe when we finish the treatment his feathers will grow back, if you say that he will be with me for two weeks.
> 
> Dana


Dana, since the feathers were pulled (by accident ) and not cut, they will grow back fairly quickly, but may need a bit longer than 2 weeks, this many not even be an issue, if not too many primary flights are missing. No rush on the photo, whenever you get a chance.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, here is the picture with the wing spred out.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, here is the picture with the wing spred out.
> 
> Dana


Thanks for the photo. Yes, there are a number of primary flights missing so we will have to let the wing grow in some, shouldn't take too long.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Today I managed to make some pictures with Kimy and his new mate, I think she is very young, I do not know about what age may have.
However is a very sweet bird and Kimy impresses me because he carries with her very nicely. He took a week's time to learn her to enter in the house to eat. Now they come together to eat twice a day.

My terrible bird Kimy finally has found peace and love!


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Today I managed to make some pictures with Kimy and his new mate, I think she is very young, I do not know about what age may have.
> However is a very sweet bird and Kimy impresses me because he carries with her very nicely. He took a week's time to learn her to enter in the house to eat. Now they come together to eat twice a day.
> 
> My terrible bird Kimy finally has found peace and love!


Well, I guess Kimy's stock went way up with her, since he lead her to the Ritz . Kimy was a challenging one for you but in the end, things look like they have finally turned out the way you wanted with Kimy and he and his mate are happy together, great job.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn,

Coko is in trouble again. I have not released outside yet, I expected him grow his wing feathers. We thought to give him his way out these days but I noticed that he is unwell starting yesterday. His droppings started to be more liquid and green and he is sad and fluffed up all day and he has no desire to fly home. 

I do not know what other problems he may have again after all the treatment with Cipro and Tinidazole. I started this morning to give Trimethoprim/Sulfa.

I think maybe we should give him something stronger, maybe he has a drug-resistant bacteria in the body because I did not explain how it is possible to be sick again so quickly.

I attach a few new pictures of him and his droppings.

Thanks,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, you are right Coko'a droppings do not look so good. Can you give a little more detail, you treated him with the Tinidazole and Cipro, right?... all the swelling below his beak/chin area went away, correct? Did he fully recover and you where just waiting for his wing feathers to grow in a little more and while waiting he started to become ill again? Keep him on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa for now.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Yes Karyn, you understand perfectly. Coko was very well after Tinidazole and Cipro treatment, we just waiting for his wing feathers to grow and he so suddenly started to become ill again. 

He was very active and fly inside home, now no longer moves on the floor. Until now, always sat on the kitchen furniture and also he love to stay in the ceiling. Is no longer interested in those places, he not even fly to the window, he sit on the floor and lies fluffed up.
Also I noticed that his appetite is not as before, eat very few seeds.

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana. you may be right in that he seems to have something chronic going on in the sense that he was treated and got well the first time and was released. Now again, Coko was treated and got to were he appeared to be fully recovered, and he would have already been released, if we were not waiting for the wing to grow in, and now has declined again, seems a good thing the wing needed to grow in .

I would put Coko in a hospital cage for now, so he does not use up energy he does not have to and feels secure. Keep him on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and if we don't see improvement in the next 48h, we may make a change in meds.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, I will keep him on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and I'll let you know aboute improvement in his condition. Right now is quiet, he sitting in his box and lies.

I am afraid that even if we treat him, his illness will relapse again. If you remember when Coko arrived the first time in my hand, he make a very liquid droppings and we kept him on Trimethoprim/Sulfa more than a week. To remember Coko, here are pictures with him when I treated the first time http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1723

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> OK Karyn, I will keep him on the Trimethoprim/Sulfa and I'll let you know aboute improvement in his condition. Right now is quiet, he sitting in his box and lies.
> 
> I am afraid that even if we treat him, his illness will relapse again. If you remember when Coko arrived the first time in my hand, he make a very liquid droppings and we kept him on Trimethoprim/Sulfa more than a week. To remember Coko, here are pictures with him when I treated the first time http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1723
> 
> Dana


Yes, I do remember, I want to see if he will respond to the Trimethoprim/Sulfa again, but we may keep him on it longer this time and once he is finished that course, we may even want try a second round of treatment with a different antibiotic to try and ensure that he will not relapse. Once we get him a little stronger I would also like to use the Pyrantel you have to treat him for worms as a precaution. Also, once finished treatment, you may have to keep him for 8 weeks or so, to make sure he does not relapse.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, most important is for him to heal and not be sick again. It will not be a problem for me to keeping him another 8 weeks. Coko is so common with us in our house and sometimes I think that when the time comes to release him he will not want to leave.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Coko had some bad days with this disease who came back, also came back a few symptoms of torticollis, of PPMV. But now he feels a little better, his droppings started to look better. It seems to work Trimethoprim/Sulfa for the moment, but now I fear that the disease will return again after completing therapy. 
I don't know, but I think that maybe Coko has a problem with the immune system or something chronic, drug resistance bacteria

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Coko had some bad days with this disease who came back, also came back a few symptoms of torticollis, of PPMV. But now he feels a little better, his droppings started to look better. It seems to work Trimethoprim/Sulfa for the moment, but now I fear that the disease will return again after completing therapy.
> I don't know, but I think that maybe Coko has a problem with the immune system or something chronic, drug resistance bacteria
> 
> Dana


Dana, glad he is making his way back and is starting to respond to treatment, I would like you to add Nystatin to his treatment as well, as he has been, and still may be, on antibiotic treatment for a sometime and I think it best we guard against any yeast issues. Let's just see if we can get him back to where he was a little while ago and then figure out a plan that may get him to a place where he will not relapse again.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, so I can start from today to give him Nystatin as well, a quarter of a pill per day,(pills has 500.000 UI) is the right dose?

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, so I can start from today to give him Nystatin as well, a quarter of a pill per day,(pills has 500.000 UI) is the right dose?
> 
> Dana


Dana, I believe we made a suspension before. Crush one pill up very, very fine, add 5mL of honey, stir, let sit 20 minutes stir well again. This will give you the standard suspension rate for Nystatin of 100,000IU/mL and you will give him 0.30cc, twice a day.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK, I will prepare a suspension right now. Thanks Karyn.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Hi Karyn,

Coko it feels great, is very active and fly around the house and his droppings looks very good. During the day I let him free in the house and only at night sleeping in his box. He found his favorite places on the cabinet top and ceiling, he just sit there all the time and look at us. This time he was very familiar with the house, I think it will be very hard to leave when the time comes.

I want to know what other treatment will continue to give him. I will finish in two days with treatment Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Nystatin.

Thanks,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, I am so very happy to hear that Coko has responded to treatment once again. Finish the few last days of treatment and then just keep him with you for 6-8 weeks, as this seems to be about the time he relapses. If after 8 weeks, with no treatment, he looks as he does today, then we may be OK, and you can give him his full freedom back again. 

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

OK, I understand, there is no problem for us to keep him home another 6 or 8 weeks, just sorry for him that he would lose the summer and he will be free when the weather will cool and when winter is close.

I think if I let him free I always have him under observation and we can catch him again if I see any signs of disease. What do you think?

Thank you,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I think if I let him free I always have him under observation and we can catch him again if I see any signs of disease. What do you think?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Dana


Dana, this may be fine to do with him, but since we do know he has relapsed twice, what we might do is in about 5 weeks, unless he show signs of illness before this, is to catch him and keep him inside for a few weeks around then. It seems that 6-8 weeks is when he has relapsed and if he goes by 8 weeks OK, we just might be good. I suggest this as I do have a small worry if he wakes up one day not well, he just may sit somewhere huddled up, and not come for the help he needs, I think he would try and come, but this is my one worry.

Karyn


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, if you believe that then we will keep him home another 8 weeks, there is absolutely no problem. 

But also I want to tell you something that I remembered first time when I treated Coko. I remembet that we have not made a complete treatment because we stopped the medication when Coko began to show signs of PPMV. Now I think that maybe he got sick again because of this, because we have not made a long treatment given how seriously ill he was. 

Karyn, to remember that you can read about it here starting with #384 http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-very-bad-injury-at-the-beak-44957-26.html

Thanks,

Dana


----------



## Dobato

Dana, I remember, but the first time he did 11 days of treatment with antibiotics (7 days of Trimethoprim/Sulfa, plus 4 days of Cipro). When he relapsed the first time, he received a full course of treatment (14 days) with Tinidazole and Cipro and recovered , but remained in your care to have his wing grow back in, but a number of weeks later relapsed again (while still in your care) and is now finishing a 14 day course of treatment with Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Nystatin and appears to have fully recovered once more.

So what do we know, we know he has been ill with an unidentified infection that seems to respond well to antibiotic treatment and then over a course of time, after finishing the AB treatment, he relapses. Where we are now at is a place of uncertainty, wondering if a longer course of treatment with an antibiotic that will penetrate the CNS, where Cipro is shown to ineffective at this, will do the trick.

I think you should keep him with you for a while, as I do believe your relationship with Coko has been set for a while, and will not affect who he is as a feral Pigeon, as he was an adult when he first came into your hands. He has his freedom, but willingly comes into you home to visit and eat and he does this by his choice.

Karyn


----------



## Pidgey

Another bird spoiled beyond belief...

Dana, you are a lady after my own heart, have I ever told you that before?

Pidgey


----------



## Vulturescu

Well Pidgey, you did not told me this before but I like a lot what you say...wow!!!

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

Karyn, yes, you're right and I'll keep him with me as long as needed. My only thought was that he will lose all summer in my house and will be free when it is cold... but anyway I think Coko is happy in my house.

And you know that birds continue to come in my hand, in fact, no longer stop to come. 
Later last night, a neighbor knocked on my door and he brought me a very sick young pigeon, he found him when he returned home near the entrance to the building. 
I gave him rehydration fluid, I gave him Metronidazole suspension and Trimethoprim Sulfa, I fed him by hand with a little bread and cooked rice but he threw up everything I gave to eat. I will try again now to give something to eat, he is very weak, weighs only 190 g.

I'll come back later with pictures.

Dana


----------



## Vulturescu

I came back with pictures, this is the new bird. I tried again to feed him but he vomited all the food. I do not know if he will survive, I see that start to lose balance. 
I do not know what else can I also give or do for him. Karyn, maybe you can figure out if he is bright in the eye. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, don't worry about food, take all food out of his cage, leave only hydration fluids (with 2 drops of AVC to every 10mL of fluids). Get him started on Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Metronidazole. Later, you can slowly give him 5mL of sugar water (1 teaspoon sugar to 60mL of water). Wrap him in a towel, head pointed on a down angle, so anything he does no swallow runs out of his mouth and not down his throat, give a few drops at a time to the side of his beak. 

Also start him on Nystatin, 0.50mL, twice a day.

We'll see how he is doing tomorrow.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I am so sorry but unfortunately the little guy died few minutes ago. He died in my arms quietly and heat. 

Last night I started to give him Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Metronidazole, so he got a dose of each last night, another dose this morning and in a few hours would give the third dose.

I'm so sorry that he died, so sorry.......I would have liked to do more for him and not die!

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I am sorry to hear this. As I know I have mentioned to you before, the birds that do come into your hands most times are seriously ill, and you have done a wonderful job of bringing most of them back. But because these birds are sometimes so ill, there are going to be times when there is nothing we will be able to do, to bring them back, they are past the point of no return. At these times all we can do is do what you did, still try, and hope we can snatch them back, but at the same time giving them comfort, and a safe place to be, in their final hours.

Bless you for tying and I am sorry we lost this little guy,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thanks Karyn, 
I began to understand this thing but it is very, very hard every time when a bird dies...

Dana


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## Pidgey

Yes, every time. Bless you, Dana!

Pidgey


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## Vulturescu

We have another young pigeon . I found him last night, I was walking with my daughter and he was in the garden of our block. 

He does not seem very sick, but his poop looks very bad and smells very bad. Since last night I start him on Trimethoprim/Sulfa, Metronidazole and Nistatin as well. I hope I did well. 

As I said he does not seem very sick, he beat me when I want to touch him and is very scared of me and always responds. 

The problem is that I do not know what to do with food. I have given very little bread and nothing else, also I have given rehydration fluid. I do not think that he knows to eat alone at his age and I do not know if he's hungry. He weighs 218g.


Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, I do not like the look of those droppings, so as a precaution lets start him on some Trimethoprim/Sulfa and Metronidazole, you want to give him 5mg of each for every 100 grams he weighs, so for example, if he weighed in at 200g, he would get 10mg of each med, every 12 hours.

You can feed him the special pigeon's corn bread you make, like for Piu, and dip his beak into tepid water to get him to drink each time he feeds, here's how below, plus you can start to work with him on weaning by pecking at seeds with him, so here are also a few links that describes how to get them nuzzling and eating seeds, you will also spread some seeds around and make like you are hunting and pecking with him by crooking your forefinger and tapping at the seeds as well. Some catch on pretty quick, with others it may take a bit of time, so be patient with him (I know you always are ). Once they are eating seeds, continue to supplement with hand feeding until he is few weeks older and you are confident he is getting enough by himself into him. Have him in a place where he can watch Coko eat and drink, as they also learn from observing other pigeons.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=522565&postcount=11 (information on how to get him to start to self water)
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=523350&postcount=16 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=508006&postcount=3 feeding seeds
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=507810&postcount=2 feeding seeds

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I've seen the informative links and I will try to give him seeds in this way but now is very scared of me and does not want to eat anything from my hand. I think that for now can only feed him by hand.

I already learned him to drink water and know how to drink alone, he drink plenty of water and his poop is just water now.

Karyn, what age do you think he has?

Thanks,

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> I've seen the informative links and I will try to give him seeds in this way but now is very scared of me and does not want to eat anything from my hand. I think that for now can only feed him by hand.
> 
> I already learned him to drink water and know how to drink alone, he drink plenty of water and his poop is just water now.
> 
> Karyn, what age do you think he has?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dana


This little one looks to be a little past three weeks of age, he will get calmer in the next day or two and he will be easier for you. Glad he can drink on his own, I want you to switch from plain water to hydration fluid for him, did you start the meds?

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I started the meds right in the evening I found him, when I saw that his poop started to look bad. I also added Nystatin because I have seen so much yellow in his poop and his poop smells really bad. 

Is still very scared and does not require food, I feed him by hand now, I hope he will be calmer in the coming days.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, the Nystatin is a good idea, as it's hard to tell how many things could be going on with this little guy, but will your treatment program, I think most things are now covered. Keep a seed and water dish is his cage and spread a few seeds in front of his seed dish for now as well, so he has something to peck at, even if he does not get much into him, but you never know, some pickup self-feeding real quick, we'll have to see how it goes.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I want you to know that the young bird is well, he respond well to medication and he's poops look good now. He starts to become active and today I managed to learn him to eat alone.
How long do you think is necessary to give him these meds?

Thanks,

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I want you to know that the young bird is well, he respond well to medication and he's poops look good now. He starts to become active and today I managed to learn him to eat alone.
> How long do you think is necessary to give him these meds?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dana


I think 10 days should be fine on the meds, glad he has responded and is doing well in your care . Thanks for the update.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, the new bird is fine, we call him Nero. Nero is a very warrior bird, he always beats me and I fail to tame it, although is still a young bird has a different character than the others, I will say that he has a very mature character... but he is a sweet bird.

How long do you think you have to keep him home, I mean, when he can be released?

These are new pics with him. 

Dana


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## Dobato

Yes, I can see the warrior look in his eyes . How much does he weight? Please start to keep his cage by the window where he can see the other birds come to feed and watch outside. Glad to hear you got him better.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, I weighed him right now and he weighs 308g, quite good than it was when I found him. However, he eats very well and is very active.
Yes, I will keep his cage by the window.

The rabbit toy that has in the cage, at first he beat him badly but now he began to kiss him and become friendly with him.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Karyn, I weighed him right now and he weighs 308g, quite good than it was when I found him. However, he eats very well and is very active.
> Yes, I will keep his cage by the window.
> 
> The rabbit toy that has in the cage, at first he beat him badly but now he began to kiss him and become friendly with him.
> 
> Dana


Dana, Nero looks like a young bird, not long out of the nest. I would keep him a few more weeks to fatten him up a bit and make sure all is well, like to see him around 350g. If he is not too stressed in a little while you perhaps can have him spend sometime outside his cage by the window, to help him "lock" in you location, like with Piu. Also, try and give him some flying time inside, best to do this at night time, so to catch him all you will do is turn off the lights, as they don't see well n the dark, daytime you will stress him chasing him around to catch him.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

OK Karyn, today I put him outside with his cage and seems that he likes it, especially as he has many visitors.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, this is good, it will get him used to your other guys  and also help him become familiar with your location, just make sure the cage and where it sits is quite secure. Is there a place, when out the cage is out, where the other birds can come and feed so Nero can watch them?

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Yes it is a place near the window, in the left side near the glass where the other birds can come and feed, so this is not a problem.

Dana


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## Dobato

Vulturescu said:


> Yes it is a place near the window, in the left side near the glass where the other birds can come and feed, so this is not a problem.
> 
> Dana


Perfect !

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I'm back with news about Nero, he is well, he grew up a little, he also started making that noise coco-roco-co-roco. He is the warrior bird that I ever met. 
Restoration work began on our building and are mounted scaffolding everywhere and my air conditioner is removed until completion of works. Nero's cage now stands on scaffolding and other birds come to eat all the scaffolding. Few days were very confused, but now they got used to the new situation.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, thanks for the update. Yes, it does not take them long to adapt, especially where food is concerned . Good job,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Nero is a free bird now. This morning we've got to say goodbye to Nero after six weeks with us. We kiss him and let him go, he spent almost 5 hours on scaffolding and into the tree, until he left the area following other birds. Now we expected to return when he will be hungry. I think he will do well outside, is a very intelligent and resourceful bird. How long he stay with us and tried to tame him, I have not managed to approach him to me, Nero is a very, very wild bird, although when he was found he was a baby.

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, thanks for the update on Nero, another success for you. The ferals in your country are very lucky to have you there . Please do keep us updated if he does come around to feed by you. Good job,

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

Thanks Karyn, I will tell you if Nero come back to me these days.

Dana


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## Vulturescu

Karyn, no sign of Nero... I still watch the area after him but not see it. To be honest, I felt that he was not coming back. He was so desperate to escape from the cage and not in any way I could approach him. He was the bird that was the most out the window and so far I think it would have to return.

Pippo worries me now, until today was very good. Today started making some spasms, his throat tighten and shaking the whole body as if trying to vomit or have anything in the neck. His poop look good, but I do not like because is a little sleepy and makes these spasms from time to time and easily loses his balance.
What could be that, may have swallowed any flake?

Dana


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## Dobato

Dana, you did all you could for Nero, and his body weight was good so he has reserves to fall back on, all you can do now is keep an eye out for him. If Pippo was well until today then, he may just have a seed/shell caught in his throat, you can soak a few small pieces of bread and feed him as they will help dislodge anything that's in his throat. If his droppings are good, let's just keep an eye on him in the next hours to see if he brights up, if not we'll try and figure things out for him.

Open is mouth, and get a flashlight and have a good look down his throat.

Karyn


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## Vulturescu

I looked down his throat but do not see anything there. I will try to give him some bread. At this hour start dark outside and he usually eat, but does not want to eat anything and has some very strange moves, I am very worried for him. 

Dana


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