# The Use of Garlic



## Pidgey

Garlic is often suggested to be used in birds for health reasons. I have been alerted to a condition that can arise in some animals due to getting too much garlic--Heinz body hemolytic anemia. Essentially, some of the suflur compounds in onions and garlic metabolize into compounds that can damage erythrocytes (red blood cells) in some individuals and particularly in some species. Some of the things I read actually pointed to the fact that different individuals have different chemistries, different quantities of red blood cells and other such things. As such, the negative effects on some individuals are far more pronounced while being negligible in others. There has been much research into the health benefits of garlic like reducing cholesterol and as an anthelmintic (getting rid of worms) to name a couple.

It has been noted by animal researchers that dogs and cats (especially cats) are at excessive risk of this kind of anemia but there is limited veterinary research to show that some birds, at least, have also suffered from the problem. A dusky-headed conure has been clinically determined to have died from an acute hemolytic event (rapid and significant destruction of red blood cells) after eating some amount of raw garlic:

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1647/2002-030

I haven't found much on the Internet about this and will have to delve into my veterinary sources for more information. However, for more reading on the subject:

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=711&t=

http://monkeymaddness.com/articles/onions.html

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/dairy.html

http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/vettech_0801.pdf?docID=349

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/HTML/shaunaoct.htm

The next-to-last link above discusses a specific toxic level leading to death while the last link proposes a safe level to maintain albeit inexact seeing as how it's on a weight basis and not proportioned with respect to the form that the garlic is being administered as.

After reading all of the references, I think there are a few questions that need answering:

1) Is there any negative effect to a pigeon at all?

2) If so, what's the level at which toxicity occurs?

3) Is that level "individual specific"?

The test that would most easily answer the first question would be to take a specific individual pigeon (that's healthy AND that hasn't had any garlic before) in for some baseline bloodwork, specifically a PCV (Packed Cell Volume) or a hematocrit. Then, give the bird the garlic in the form agreed upon for a period of time and then get another blood test done to see if the PCV has changed appreciably. Ideally, it would be good to do several birds but the cost could be kinda' prohibitive.

If it's true that too much garlic can cause an acute hemolytic event in pigeons, then one would be led to the conclusion that garlic extracts should be treated as drugs in that they should not be carelessly administered with no thought to consequences.

I'm pretty sure this one's going to be a "hot potato" so, let the discussion begin!

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

I am in no position to comment about the medical effects of anything (for the most part).

Just wanted to make the comment that most ANYTHING, in excess, can be detrimental. AND, if one takes into account individual _differences,_ then, even more so! What works for patient "A" could be deadly for patient "B."

Sure would be interesting to do the tests Pidgey recommends. 

I would also wonder if what works for homers would work the same for the more "exotic" breeds: fantails, pouters, etc., etc.

Mmmm, now THERE would be a "project" for a prospective or current Avian Vet! A paper on The Benefits and Affects of Garlic on Pigeon Breeds! 

Maybe I should talk to my Avian Vet who DOES have pigeons!


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## Skyeking

Well, since I'm one of the few who uses garlic on my pigeons, I guess I'd better respond, huh?

I hope I can return the favor some time.

Too much of any good thing is bad. Whether it be medication or food, what works for one person may not necessarily work for another person, and some may effect some people negatively, that is not unique to garlic alone. 

You have to evaluate the quality of garlic products, as not all are created equal. Some are very poor in concentration, some are almost completely man made, and chemical concentrations altered. The quality of raw material, and whether resources are grown in pristine land or pesticide laiden soils also makes a big difference. .Also, kitchen garlic is not the same as the wild European garlic that is used in a good organic garlic/allicidin. The concentrations are different and encapsulation are different, some are made of pure vegetable, whereas some use plastic.

There is even a difference when garlic is encapsulated or in pill form. With capsule, nutrients can be retained in their natural form, easy to absob, no damaging heat or pressure, no degrading of nutrients, no rancid oils, 50 percent better absorption than tablets, easier broken down in the stomach, and no toxic glues, binders or fillers. With tablets you can lose quality and absorption, but mostly they can use liver-toxic binders and glues and lubbricants not listed on the label. There are SO many variables in products on the market.

I have used between between 1000 to 1500 miligrams of garlic/allicidin for my birds with no problems at all. (Doreen, licensed rehabber for Brevard County) has used 2000 or more (one cap per day) for months at a time, with positive results, in her career as rehabber for 30 years. The only time we don't use garlic is on young birds or any bird that has an upset stomach.

Have you ever used garlic? If not you can come and check my birds out. I have seen no negative effect from using it on them at all. Doreen has even more birds of many different species that she has used it on, she has many more cases then I have ever had in my few years of using it.

I have seen only positive effects from strengthening of the immune system to healing, as an anti-infective, anti-parasitic as well as a blood purifier. 

I have probably used it on all my pigeons from time to time, but I actually only use it consistently for weeks at a time on rehab birds. I myself use allicidin complex from time to time and find it to be very beneficial. My brother-in-law is one of those who's blood pressure went to normal after using the Allicidin Complex. Surprisingly I have found the long term effect of using it on birds with broken legs, to be very positive. The "side effects" I have seen of using it long term, is an improved immune system response, beautiful tight clean feathering after the molt (they look like youngsters after their first molt), as well as very thick layers of feathers, and lots of powder, and no parasites. That is just the list of a few side effects.

Birds cannot necessarily take the same products made for cats and dogs, you have to be extremely careful. I found that an organic parasitic product that can be used for cats and dogs, cannot be used for pigeons.

Have you ever thought of doing a long term study on the side-effects and destruction caused by using medications and drugs long term/or short term? I think that would be a very eye opening study, as these things can actually create toxic livers as well as destroy the immune system response and destroy the balance of flora in gut, and much more. I cannot do that study as I am not an expert on medications. It would be nice to get the real truths on it. 

However, I have read about the side effects of using prednasone-as I took it once, and I mean short term, and I have had to cleanse my liver for many months to make sure no toxins were left to linger.

God Bless You.


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## Reti

While it is toxic to cats and dogs, that doesn't mean it ic also toxic for birds. Ideally a study should be made on birds.
I have used garlic on most of my rehabs for years now with no ill effects. I haven't used it on very sick birds, just the ones in fair condition and they all did well.

I am in school now, so have to be quick. Will be back on it later.

Reti


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Raw garlic cloves, half dozen or more at a time per gallon, garlic oil, garlic powder, "Alli-Supreme" capsules. Have used them all at same time, and have yet to find any doseage which causes any negative side affect, except bad breath on the birds. Although I do suspect that most commercially produced garlic products are near worthless, because of the processes used to produce.


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## Pidgey

The bird that died in the reference above, did so because it had been fed raw kitchen garlic and a half-clove was found in the crop at necropsy. Allicidin is a stabilized Allicin product. Allicin is the substance that causes your mouth to burn when you bite down on a clove of garlic, which most people rarely if ever do. 

I used to occasionally enjoy raw garlic cloves and learned to do so from a Cajun friend. A couple of years ago, I bit into a piece and, when I swallowed it, almost sank to my knees due to an intense pain in my lower esophagus. What I was to find out was that I had developed short-segment Barrett's esophagus which is a pre-cancerous mutation of the cells of the esophagus. At this point, it has not progressed to a dysplasia, which is the next step towards Esophageal Adenocarcinoma, one of the world's deadliest cancers. I cannot and definitely should not eat raw garlic anymore due to the mutagenic effect of the toxic oxygen species that is created as a byproduct of Allicin, which is itself a very unstable compound. If I, for the sake of health, were to eat a few raw cloves of garlic a day, it would probably significantly shorten my lifespan. Now, oddly enough, I could swallow the raw cloves and not suffer the effect because it is the crushing of the garlic that causes the Allicin to be created in the first place, some theorize as a defense mechanism for the plant. But make no mistake, it would be a bad idea for me to eat (and chew) raw garlic.

Many antibiotics, bactericidal compounds and even immune cells actually utilize oxygen radicals to do their work. This is no different. You'd rather it was your immune cells specifically targeting invading pathogens to do it rather than employing chemicals running loose through the body releasing oxygen radicals wherever convenient. Antibiotics that we use and that are regulated by the FDA are extensively tested to determine the efficacy and side-effects of their use. Actually, they ARE tested whereas many other remedies are not. Ideally, an antibiotic can float freely through the body and be as inert as possible except to the pathogens that we're putting them in there to help against. More often than not, they are in the class of "chemotherapeutic agents" that do have negative effects as well as the positives. In many clinical cases though, the rather positive effect of surviving is arguably better than the negative effect of needing to replace one's intestinal flora for a few days.

Now, here's a case that was previously on here where we have a bird in a downward spiral:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15624

Tsepina gave it some minced garlic and it later died. There's no point in speculating what did or didn't kill the bird--we're NOT going to know. That's actually the fun part of "anecdotal" cases--you don't know. 

That's why I propose that we perform some simple hematocrits on (a) pigeon(s) to determine whether the known and clinically proven effect of Heinz body hemolytic anemia even occurs in pigeons. It obviously did with the conure. There's a certain amount of that which you're not going to be able to see any recognizable symptoms of with a less-than-fatal dose in the animals noted to suffer from it. It may come down to being that only certain birds in heavily compromised circumstances may be affected enough to outwardly detect.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Trees Gray said:


> You have to evaluate the quality of garlic products, as not all are created equal. Some are very poor in concentration, some are almost completely man made, and chemical concentrations altered. The quality of raw material, and whether resources are grown in pristine land or pesticide laiden soils also makes a big difference. .Also, kitchen garlic is not the same as the wild European garlic that is used in a good organic garlic/allicidin. The concentrations are different and encapsulation are different, some are made of pure vegetable, whereas some use plastic.
> 
> There is even a difference when garlic is encapsulated or in pill form. With capsule, nutrients can be retained in their natural form, easy to absob, no damaging heat or pressure, no degrading of nutrients, no rancid oils, 50 percent better absorption than tablets, easier broken down in the stomach, and no toxic glues, binders or fillers. With tablets you can lose quality and absorption, but mostly they can use liver-toxic binders and glues and lubbricants not listed on the label. *There are SO many variables in products on the market.*


I imagine so. Found this little essay about that (not about garlic):

http://scientium.com/diagon_alley/commentary/editorial_concourse/mcnamara/alt_med.htm

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

I think that there is always a common sense approach to medications and alternative modalities and
don’t think that one should be given up for the other nor should either be given up all together . There are dosing levels that are considered well within the range of safe administration for a given medicine regardless of the discipline that it springs from. And true enough; there will always be individual patients who register a response to something that is outside of the norm. 

Should each and every patient have to undergo a series of costly tests to ensure that they are not going
to be adversely affected or otherwise not be able to advantage themselves of a given ‘cure’ to their 
suffering? Surely this would be unfair in itself, but in the application that we are using and discussing,
we can’t always take the time or find the funding to see if a given pigeon is allergic to or part of a small
percentage of birds who might, for instance, die from using sulfur drugs . Do we elect, then, not to treat this bird because no funding is available to pre-test potential adverse responses to this medication? Surely not, we treat and try to save the bird. 

Why? Because we know in advance that there is a given range that is tried and true that has been proven
to be safe yet effective in the majority of avian patients for either curing or relieving suffering.
Here are some general links concerning adverse drug reactions:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/279/15/1200?ijkey=F8guE.zA8WYTs

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/3/247

We also need to remember that something as seemingly benign as water can be lethal dependant on
how much and in what time frame it is consumed. Hyponatremia is a condition that can happen to 
anyone regardless of a predisposed condition and it can be and is in fact fatal. How many of us when
we drink water think to ourselves that the water itself, even if the purest in the world, if drunk under
certain circumstances could kill us? And if aware of this, how many of us would D/C use of spring 
water? Here are a couple of links on Hyponatremia:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/5/f/blwaterintox.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6263029.stm


I won’t discontinue (D/C) the use of AMA approved drugs and recommended dose rates, alternative modalities (the use of which many times pre-dates by centuries our western medicine cures) or the use
of spring water……not because I like to live dangerously but instead because I prefer to take a middle
path w/all of this which embraces more than one tradition.

fp


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## Pidgey

It was a concerned person who brought this up to me. I had no idea such a thing could happen and was kinda' surprised to learn of its existence. I started this thread for the express purpose of finding out if anyone else was aware of it and in the hopes of doing "due diligence" with respect to the use of garlic. The incidence of "Heinz body hemolytic anemia" is not an allergic response as, I believe, those references adequately convey.

That said, I also believe that I've stated that it's something that ought to be determined--whether or not pigeons even suffer the effect to an appreciable degree. Here's my thinking as to why that's worthy of study: suppose that there is an effect and the ingestion of a regularly suggested quantity of garlic were to cause... say, a 10% reduction of RBC's. If the bird is being given the stuff because it's obviously sick and it's already anemic or dyspneic due to some pulmonary infection, then adding insult to injury may be too much. That would constitute a "contraindication".

It doesn't mean that there aren't benefits to taking the stuff--it might just mean that it's the wrong place and time if a bird is in bad shape. Even bloodletting has its proper place if a person has hemochromatosis. And it's accepted that occasionally donating blood exercises the body's ability to produce red blood cells, which is a wonderful way to prepare for a blood-loss event.

Just trying to get to the bottom of something, here, folks.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

I've read this thread a few times now and I guess I keep coming back to Pidgey's post, #6, where he suggests some hematocrits tests be done. To me it's always good to know the full range of possible effects of any supplement or medicine that is to be given, even if those effects occur outside of what would be considered "normal" dosing ranges.

I just wonder whether a single bird would be enough, although I realize this would all be anecdotal even with more, but would be a little more reliable, to come to a firm conclusion. I do think it's worth while knowing though.

Ron


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## SmithFamilyLoft

So...after all the study. Has anyone figured out, that yes....after decades of use, garlic is not only "safe" but effective ? Allthough as had been pointed out, even water under the right conditions can kill you, I just wonder what new insight is available, that the masters didn't already know...decades ago ?


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## Skyeking

*The Goodness and Safety of garlic*

I really didn't want to respond anymore, as I didn't want to stir up anymore controversy. But I must say, I feel the need to have to defend myself, when really that is ridiculous. The products speak for themselves. I am not going to stop using garlic, as it is truly a miraculous healing tool.

There has been over hundreds of tests done on the safety and effectiveness of garlic/allicidin, and why it works. These clinical studies are done within the guidelines and proceedures recommended. There have also been studies done on the effects garlic has on E coli, and other major diseases as of late.

The garlic products I use myself for my birds are of the highest quality and integrity. The products actually DO what they say they DO and I'm using dosages recommended for birds. I use them myself and my doctor can't believe my blood work (traditional doctor, not holisitc), when he reads me the results. 

If you use isolates and not an the entire elements of nature then you run the risk of oxygenation and other problems.

http://www.qnlabs.com/quality.shtml

http://www.qnlabs.com/warning.shtml

When you use a truly organic compound that comes from clean organic sources, and procure the best and safest packaging for the products, then it just doesn't make sense that there could be any negative effects, especially with SO much testing going on. I'm sure Dr. Marshall would NOT use garlic if there was the least problem with it.

http://www.qnlabs.com/why.shtml

Doreen herself has used garlic for 30 some years in all birds that she rehabes, this is a prime support product used in all cases and even the worst. Her success rate is outstanding, especially since she doesn't use any standard medications. There really is no negative results. 

Pidgey, you used the thread on a poor dying bird as an example of possible garlic caused death. First of all, the bird was fed three different things, not just garlic, and second of all, that bird was already gone way down hill before the administration of garlic.

I'm sorry you had such negative effects from garlic, but why would you even eat a raw clove? I don't advocate giving raw garlic down the throat, I always recommend putting it in their drinking water, or using the encapsulated superior product.

I appreciate your honesty here, but you are undermining the use of garlic, that SO many people including I have used extensively for years, with NO negative effects, in fact, just the opposite. 

How about some double blind studies...are there any? proof of vacines?


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## Pidgey

Yes, you are correct, Treesa, you do promote putting raw cloves in the water. After some looking, I discovered that others have occasionally advocated putting raw garlic down the birds. I declined to link said posts.

I think if you'll read what I posted sentence for sentence and consider it that way, you'll see that it's not an out&out, winner-take-all, attack on all use of garlic. I posted it because another concerned member really did PM me about it after discovering something about it from someone else. I guess that member trusted me to perform due diligence, which is a way of saying to actually vet out the information or determine if it's correct and what parameters it's correct within.

For your information, I used to eat the garlic because I liked the taste and the sensation. It was all natural so why shouldn't it be good for you? I'd always believed that. I never ate enough by a long shot to cause any significant destruction of RBC's but it's now obvious that the burning sensation of chewing the raw cloves isn't a good idea at all--it probably burns because of the destruction of cells in your mouth.

I think I pointed out that one thread for the express purpose of illustrating that birds on here have been given raw garlic, either because someone told them to or because nobody expressly told them NOT to. All I'm trying to determine is whether or not there is good reason to do just that: warn people not to give them raw garlic. 

I ordered the cutest little hematocrit centrifuge and Heparinized Microhematocrit tubes yesterday for this purpose. Actually, it'll come in handy for a lot of other things, but that's beside the point. I have also enlisted the services of a vet to twin the testing to help reduce error. It's probably going to take several weeks to months but it's going to get done.

Pidgey


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Pidgey said:


> ....... All I'm trying to determine is whether or not there is good reason to do just that: warn people not to give them raw garlic.....
> 
> Pidgey



Hello Pidgey,

I am just curious, as to how your "study" will be conducted, in order to verify or confirm, the safty or danger of using raw garlic ? And for the sake of discussion, are we talking about shoving it down the birds throat, or placed in water ? What about the dozens of other materials that we feed our birds, such as onions, carrots, kelp, all the various seeds, etc. etc. I mean I just don't see how you and a single Vet, could conduct a study, which would stand up to academic review, and if the study does not meet academic review, then how would this particular study be worth any more or less, then the last thirty + years of use by fanciers, rehabbers, medical persons etc.

I can understand your interest in the subject matter, but to me, you are simply reinventing the wheel, or perhaps conducting a "study" to confirm what the fancy already knows.


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## Pidgey

Well, Warren, I thought I had been explicit about it only pertaining to shoving raw garlic down the throat of a bird. Putting garlic in the water shouldn't apply. I guess you really didn't completely read the text or the links, didja'? The study would essentially be done by way of force-feeding a bird a pre-determined quantity of raw garlic ONLY AFTER having established the baseline PCV (Packed Cell Volume) of RBC's (Red Blood Cells). Then, a new test would be run each day to see if the PCV level falls briefly. It may, it may not. 

The significance of a falling or reduced PCV is anemia and in such a case should be a very temporary condition. The body naturally picks back up after such an event when it occurs by way of a blood loss event instead of some illness. It may even be postulated that an animal might even feel better than before, after the recovery is made due to having a higher percentage of newer blood cells, just like a lot of folks feel better after an illness than before it came along.

But, for the umpteenth time, this is about determining whether the ingestion of a significant quantity of raw garlic (significant to a pigeon anyhow) causes a hemolytic event. That is a ridiculously simple test that doesn't need an especial amount of verification--the daily PCV will tell it all. It's not the same as testing for a bacterial response to antibiotic treatment.

When you're using garlic in the water, you're pretty much just trying to keep the bacterial count down in the water. This is not about that--I don't see how the birds could or would ingest any significant amount of the garlic under such circumstances. From others' accounts, I'd even get the idea that it might be tough to get them to ingest just the water for the smell or taste or whatever. Some claim their birds love it (must be Italian birds) and some claim they're not too happy about it, I don't care--because this isn't about that.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Pidgey, I hope I am not out of line here, and I may be wrong, but to my thinking that testing with raw garlic would have a number of variables that could not be controlled such as origin, freshness, allicin concentration, and size, although I guess you could weigh it, come to mind.

To my thinking, if tests where to be run, it would be better to use a manufactured product with stated allcin concentration and amounts as not to let the variables make all testing less reliable.

Pidgey, I just read your post, is it just raw garlic or the active ingredient that there may be concerns about?

Treesa, I feel in no way you have to defend yourself, the wealth of knowledge you bring to this board on complimentary and alternative treatments is really invaluable.

Ron


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## SmithFamilyLoft

OK Pidgey,

I think I understand now. Most of the time, I really don't know what you are talking about, well....I have an idea, but it is pretty much an academic discussion, which I suspect is pretty much over my head. I mean, I am still trying to figure out why a person would attempt to shove a garlic clove down the throat of a pigeon ?

My birds for some reason, are able to injest very high concentrations of garlic water. I have placed both garlic juice and numerous garlic cloves, I think the most I did was 10 large, fresh cloves sliced up and placed into the water with four tablespoons of Global Garlic Juice.

What I would like to know, is if more is better, in my toxic studies. But, that may very well be way OT to what you Biology Majors are discussing. So I will attempt to sit back and just read for awhile, sorry if I was a distraction.


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## Pidgey

jazaroo said:


> Pidgey, I just read your post, is it just raw garlic or the active ingredient that there may be concerns about?
> 
> Ron


How should I know? The references cited specifically mention the ingestion of onions and some garlic. The conure seems to have both ingested a half-clove of garlic (still in the crop) and possibly had a history of being forced or otherwise fed raw garlic. You can kinda' imagine a scenario where the owner probably thought the bird was not feeling good and started pumping in the raw cloves to "fix it right up". And chicken. That's weird. Anyhow, guess it didn't go too well for that bird...

The cited references do mention garlic and onions in various forms but I don't recall there being any mention of the effect being specifically from Allicin. I kinda' gathered that it wasn't. I'd gotten the impression that it was of some or several sulfur compounds and due to the fact that it was from cooked onions in some cases that it couldn't be specifically Allicin, anyhow.

So, Jaz, I'm going to suggest that you try what I did: read and re-read all the references until you're sick of re-reading them. Don't read them looking for any malice on the part of the author against garlic, just assume that they're normal folks just noting their clinical observations and connecting the dots.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

OK, I'll do some reading, without any prejudment. 

Ron


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## Pidgey

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK Pidgey,
> 
> I think I understand now. Most of the time, I really don't know what you are talking about, well....I have an idea, but it is pretty much an academic discussion, which I suspect is pretty much over my head. I mean, I am still trying to figure out why a person would attempt to shove a garlic clove down the throat of a pigeon ?
> 
> My birds for some reason, are able to injest very high concentrations of garlic water. I have placed both garlic juice and numerous garlic cloves, I think the most I did was 10 large, fresh cloves sliced up and placed into the water with four tablespoons of Global Garlic Juice.
> 
> What I would like to know, is if more is better, in my toxic studies. But, that may very well be way OT to what you Biology Majors are discussing. So I will attempt to sit back and just read for awhile, sorry if I was a distraction.


Sorry, Warren, I didn't notice that you'd posted that reply!

The plot thickens--I got an email from the person who had PMed me giving more information. It seems that the person has a Quaker parrot (a type of conure? related to conures?) and had read on another bird website (about companion birds like parrots) about the death of the Dusky due to the garlic. This person's bird has a tendency to make his own soup in his water bowl with whatever and then eat it. This person had been about to put raw garlic in the waterer because of all the positive advice here about the stuff. This person thought it likely that the bird might go ahead and eat the garlic solids. As it happens, that's when the person came across that other reference, backed off and contacted me for advice. I did the first part, pretty much right then and there: looked for easily obtainable references to the phenomenon and decided to post the beginnings of this deal in order to: 

1) See if anyone else had any awareness or familiarity with it; 

2) Start figuring out whether there is any problem with our normal uses and advice concerning the stuff; and,

3) Get my hiney shot off.

The possible reasons why someone would give raw garlic to a bird are pretty obvious: the belief that it's going to help with a sick bird and no other drugs are available or accepted; or that it's a healthy practice. Frankly, I ALWAYS loved the stuff and don't have a problem with garlic breath. I prefer garlic breath to most perfumes 10 to 1. I used to lament audibly that I wished that EVERYONE ate plenty of garlic so they wouldn't GRIPE about my garlic breath whenever I'd eat the stuff. As a matter of fact, the ONLY reason I didn't eat more of it was because of the griping.

So, it seems there might be more to the story now. Perhaps it will turn out that there's no effect in pigeons (which wouldn't help that member with her Quaker because a conure DID die of it) and perhaps a clove or two of chopped, raw garlic given to a pigeon will make a notable drop in the PCV. That's the first thing to establish, whether or not there's anything to the premise within our species of choice. If there is, then it might behoove us to check a few of the actual commercial products to see if they have a similar effect. The compounds in them may or may not have such an effect, just don't know.


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## Feather

All new findings are beneficial to the members on this forum. Each member has the opportunely to weigh the information and use it to each given circumstance.

I will never close myself off to any new theories that have been posted for the benefit of my birds, and for the sake of consideration.

I have contributed garlic to the state of my beautiful and healthy pigeons. But...I would not be surprised if studies now find that it has a negative effect.

Cigarettes, eggs, beef, chicken, fish, protein diets, aspirin, morphine, Valium, chocolate, and birth control are just a few of the controversal studies over my life time. Nothing is written in stone.

Will I stop using garlic? 

At this stage I will keep it in mind that my birds could injest the small cloves and it may have a fatal consequence. I will not add more than I am already giving them thinking that it is harmless, and could only produce positive results. There are new findings being discovered everyday. I would hate that one of us would hold one back, because it is not the popular belief on this forum.

Let us all keep an open mind to new findings. 

Did anyone have the nerve to question the Masters on the flat shape of our earth?


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## mr squeaks

Personally, I think Treesa's remarks were right on!

I think that HOW and WHAT KIND of garlic is used, could be crucial. Giving a bird some raw garlic with so many variables may not be a wise move.

If I were going to give a bird garlic, I, personally, would check with Treesa first. 

Would also LIKE to see tests done with pigeons in controlled conditions: 

1. pigeons NOT receiveing ANY garlic 
2. pigeons receiving garlic capsules that Tressa recommends 
3. pigeons receiving garlic ONLY in water

BTW. Pidgey, your mention of eating raw garlic reminds me of the time at T'ai Chi camp. A member had brought some Elephant Garlic with her and chopped up pieces to put in her salad. I LOVE garlic and asked if I could have some too. That afternoon we had an class that involved rather close contact with others. Because I had eaten garlic, I brushed my teeth, tongue and mouth REALLY well, hoping that I wouldn't offend. All went well until a friend who was my partner, said, "Whew, you've been eating garlic!" That stuff comes out of one's SKIN, not to mention breath, no matter how much you brush or what you use! *sigh* I guess everyone else was too "polite" to say anything!


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## Pidgey

mr squeaks said:


> Personally, I think Treesa's remarks were right on!
> 
> I think that HOW and WHAT KIND of garlic is used, could be crucial. Giving a bird some raw garlic with so many variables may not be a wise move.
> 
> If I were going to give a bird garlic, I, personally, would check with Treesa first.
> 
> Would also LIKE to see tests done with pigeons in controlled conditions:
> 
> 1. pigeons NOT receiveing ANY garlic
> 2. pigeons receiving garlic capsules that Tressa recommends
> 3. pigeons receiving garlic ONLY in water


The PCV doesn't much change in pigeons or people except for odd circumstances like illnesses or injuries, at least not in the short term. The PCV is a measure of the relative proportion of red blood cells (RBC's) in the blood to the other components. It takes into account both the size and number of the RBC's. The way the test works is that you put a sample of the blood in a special tube (Heparinized: Coated with blood thinner to prevent clotting) and centrifuge the tube at ungodly high G forces (~10,000x Earth's gravity) for a short period. What happens is that the RBC's, which are the heaviest, get crammed into the bottom of the tube and reshaped like cubes. The white blood cells (WBC's) make up the next layer (the "Buffy Coat") and then the plasma ends up on top of that. Measuring the length of the RBC layer relative to the entire column gives you the PCV or "Packed Cell Volume". This can give an extremely quick and simple snapshot of whether the living being in question is possibly suffering anemia because while individual's vary, they do so within fairly narrow percentages barring illness or injury.

A "hemolytic event" is when a significant number of RBC's are destroyed, plunging the animal's RBC count down from its normal level. Many things can do that from bacteremia to zinc toxicosis... 

like here: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=175539&postcount=16

...to leukemia to hemorrhaging to, apparently, this possibility amongst goodness knows how many more. What those references are pointing out is that some sulfides in plants of the family that onions and garlic come from have been shown to cause a mutation in the RBC's and, I believe, it's the body that decides to dismantle those affected cells in the spleen and recycle them. That mutation is called a "Heinz Body". That's why the entire thing is called a "Heinz body hemolytic anemia".

Going into deeper study into this phenomenon, the number of RBC's that can be affected can be significant enough to have killed some animals due to the RBC count going below a viable level. I don't think that the reason some individuals are affected worse is because of an allergic-type response--it seems to be more of a numbers game like having a higher RBC count to begin with or something even more esoteric.

Once we're set up to properly test them, we'll be able to do it quite easily. The unit that I bought was only $140 (S/H included) for the centrifuge and 500 tubes, and I paid another $26 for another 1,000 tubes. That's the capability of 1,500 separate PCV tests which only take a drop of blood and approximately 5 minutes. It's faster and easier than a fecal float.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Thanks Ron

Thanks mr squeaks,

I appreciate your thoughts and comments.


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## Maggie-NC

There are no two people on this forum that I hold in greater esteem than Treesa and Pidgey. I think I worded that right  but what I'm trying to say is that I like them both a lot!

Treesa, you do not have to defend yourself. You have done a tremendous amount of research on all the products you recommend and will not recommend something until you get clarification on it. You are highly respected by everyone.

Pidgey, I admire your courage, if I may call it that, in bringing up this subject. It is always difficult to question a product that is so widely used by so many people. You have done a great deal of research too and your plan to do trials on garlic is commendable. You too, are highly respected by everyone.

All of us work towards the same goal - keeping our birds healthy. I believe that we should also keep an open mind to anything a respected member brings up, even if goes contrary to established practices. That is what I call progress. Like Feather mentioned in her post, too many times we are given a drug only to find out later that it can cause serious consequences.

It is similar to what I have recently learned about the wormer Panacur - that it may, in fact, kill pigeons. I am still somewhat confused by that because my vet still says it is a good product if you give the correct dose. But that is what I'm talking about - there can be differing opinions.

If there is even a question about the use of garlic then lets find out once and for all. If Pidgey is wrong we'll let Daryl lend Treesa her golf shoes to do with as she wishes, but the thing is I don't think Pidgey brought this up out of any desire to hurt anyone - only to help.

That's my 2 cents worth.


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/2h7rlu

Click here to read 
Prevention of garlic-induced hemolytic anemia using some tropical green leafy vegetables.

Oboh G.

Biochemistry Department, Federal University of Technology, Akure, Nigeria. [email protected]

Garlic (Allium sativum) is popularly consumed in Nigeria because of its health benefit in treatment and management of several disease conditions. However, excessive intake of garlic may cause hemolytic anemia. This project sought to investigate the ability of some commonly consumed tropical green leafy vegetables-namely, Amaranthus cruentus, Baselia alba, Solanum macrocarpon, Ocimum gratissimum, and Corchorus olitorius-to prevent garlic-induced hemolytic anemia. Wister strain albino rats were fed diet containing 4% garlic with or without 40% vegetable supplement. The study showed that there was a decrease in daily feed intake (6.7-7.2 g/rat/day), daily weight gain (0.7-1.5 g/rat/day), and digestibility (70.4-91.5%) of rats fed diet with garlic (4%), with or without vegetable (40%) supplement, compared with those rats fed the basal diet without garlic (4%) and vegetable (40%) supplement (digestibility, 95.5%; daily feed intake, 7.5 g/rat/day; and daily weight gain, 2.0 g/rat/day). However, there was a significant decrease (P < .05) in the packed cell volume (PCV) (31.0%), hemoglobin (Hb) (10.2 g/dL), red blood cells (RBCs) (4.3 x 10(6)/microL), and white blood cells (WBCs) (3.5 x 10(6)/microL) of rats fed diet with garlic (4%) but without vegetable compared with those rats fed diet without garlic (4%) and vegetable (40%) supplements (PCV, 38.2%; Hb, 13.0 g/dL; RBCs, 5.5 x 10(6)/microL; and WBCs, 4.0 x 10(6)/microL). Conversely, there was a significant increase in the PCV (33.5-35.6%), Hb (12.0-12.5 g/dL), and RBCs (4.9-5.3 x 10(6)/microL) of rats fed diet with garlic (4%) and vegetable (40%) supplement compared with rats fed diet with 4% garlic supplement (except S. macrocarpon and C. olitorius). Furthermore, there was a significant decrease (P < .05) in mean corpuscular volume (69.2-72.0 fL) of rats fed the basal and those fed diet with garlic and vegetable (except C. olitorus and S. macrocarpon) supplement compared with the rats fed diet with garlic but without vegetable supplement (74.5 fL). This therefore implies that garlic could induce hemolytic anemia in rats. However, such anemia could be prevented by some tropical green leafy vegetables such as A. cruentus, B. alba, and O. gratissimum.

PMID: 15671698 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/2e4nja


With today's trend of resorting to dietary modification and the addition of herbs and supplements into our meal-plan as a natural way of combating and preventing common human ailments, one should be very careful in how far the companion cat can be included in these recommendations. Many natural substances which aid human ailments may have an equally beneficial effect on the cat, but equally many can also have detrimental effects on the cat and her health.

The use of garlic and other members of the Lily family such as onions, shallots, and chives in the cat's diet is not advised. Ingestion of these plants in a raw, cooked, or dried form can lead to damage of the red blood cells, which are rejected by the body from the bloodstream, and a continued use of garlic or onions can eventually result in hemolytic anemia. If the anemia is not controlled by discontinuing the use of the plants, it can potentially lead to death. Less significant but important is that raw garlic and onions irritate the mouth, esophagus, and stomach and can cause or exacerbate ulcers.

"An alkaloid, N-propyl disulphide, present in both cultivated and wild onions, chives, and garlic, affects the enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase, in red blood cells that interferes with the hexose monophosphate pathway. Oxidation of hemoglobin results because there is either insufficient phosphate dehydrogenase or glutathione to protect the red blood cells from oxidative injury. The resulting formation of Heinz bodies within erythrocytes is characteristic of onion poisoning. (...)"
Marielle Gomez-Kaifer, PhD, Department of Chemistry, University of Miami

"Onion poisoning has been described in the cat by Kobayaschi (1981) who reported a hemolytic anemia and increase in Heinz bodies in cats that had consumed onion soup. (...)"

Excerpt from Nutrient Requirements of Cats, Revised edition by the National Research Council.
Ref.: Kobayaschi, K. 1981. Onion poisoning in the cat. Feline Pract. 11:22.

"Some people may have difficulty with eating raw garlic as it can be irritating to the intestinal linings."
Benjamin Lau, M.D., Ph.D. is a leading authority on garlic and health, professor of microbiology and immunology at the School of Medicine at Loma Linda University

"Allicin, which gives garlic its odor, is a strong oxidant, that is, a chemical that creates free radicals, which in excess, can be dangerous. Allicin can cause stomach irritation and, in rare cases, hemolytic anemia, destruction of red blood cells. If placed directly on the skin, allicin can cause blistering."
"Cats or Dogs should never be given raw, un-aged garlic because it is very irritating to the mouth, esophagus, and stomach and can cause or exacerbate ulcers."
The Garlic Information Center hotline, 1-800-330-5922 at Cornell University Medical College.

What are Heinz bodies?
"Heinz bodies are pieces of oxidized hemoglobin; on a Romanowsky-stained blood smear, they appear as pale, circular structures that often protrude from the side of the RBC."
The Merck Veterinary Manual 8th edition, page 1208

What is Hemolythic anemia?
"The immune response can become directed against the body's own blood cells, including red blood cells, neutrophils, and platelets. In some instances, the cause of this is unknown, and the body is truly reacting against itself (an autoimmune disease). However, this is fairly uncommon, and usually the reaction against the body's own cells is initiated by exposure of the cat to a foreign antigen (...)"
The Cornell Book of Cats 2nd edition, page 276


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/27fyql

A dusky-headed conure (Aratinga weddelli) with a history of being force fed a large amount of garlic (Allium sativum) was presented because of anorexia and lethargy. The conure died 1 hour after supportive care was administered. At necropsy, a half clove of garlic and several large pieces of chicken meat were present in the crop. Histopathologic findings of hemoglobinuric nephrosis and hepatosplenic erythrophagocytosis strongly suggested an acute hemolytic event. Frozen kidney and liver samples were negative for polyomavirus DNA, and tissue lead and zinc levels were normal. The clinical presentation and postmortem findings in this conure are similar to those in mammals with onion and garlic (Allium species) toxicosis.


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/25xqta

Concerns that garlic is toxic for Cats and Dogs:
There are studies which claim that garlic can be toxic to dogs and cats. Garlic contains thiosulphate, which can cause “Heinz Factor” or hemolytic anemia. This condition could cause circulating blood cells to burst. There is a large amount of controversy whether garlic contains enough thiosulphate to be a concern. The key is to introduce the garlic to your pet’s diet slowly and only feed the animals small amounts daily. If you follow these guidelines the benefits greatly outweigh the risks. Begin with a ¼ of the full dose and increase slowly. Watch your pet closely for any unusual behavior. Symptoms of hemolytic anemia can develop in a few hours or up to a few days. These symptoms include: diarrhea, loss of appetite, weakness, depression and vomiting. If anemia progresses, the dog’s urine could show red pigment from damaged blood cells.


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/yqds3y


GARLIC CAN BE DEADLY August 01, 2005 9:57 AM

It has long been thought that garlic provides many health benefits when fed regularly to our pets. Garlic has been shown to stimulate white blood cells, prevent tumor formation, and decrease blood cholesterol. Vets have proposed garlic as a treatment for allergies, asthma, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, infections, intestinal parasites, and kidney disease. Add to these its effectiveness as a natural flea and parasite repellent and you would naturally be inclined to include it in your pet's diet. Many manufacturers of raw and other natural diets include garlic in their formulas. Most treats and vitamins contain garlic. You can even buy supplements made of 100% garlic. Until recently, garlic was thought to be an inexpensive, natural, and safe way to fight parasites and improve the health of our pets.

Garlic is part of the onion family (alliaceae) along with leeks and shallots. There is ample research available which indicates onions can be harmful, if not deadly, to our pets. In the last five years, more and more toxicity studies are being conducted on garlic and all seem to indicate that it, too, can pose serious health risks when fed to cats and dogs. A 2003 study on Grape and Raisin Toxicity in Dogs, published in the Australian Veterinary Journal begins, “The list of commonly available human foods toxic to dogs continues to grow. Grapes and raisins can be added to onions, garlic, chocolate, and macadamia nuts as posing dangers when ingested in excessive quantities.” Unfortunately, no one knows what constitutes “excessive quantities.” In an article on Onion and Garlic Toxicity in Dogs and Cats, Jennifer Prince, DVM states: “Garlic and onion are used as flavor enhancers in food. Since the toxic amount is unknown, it is recommended not to add it to your pet's food. These ingredients can cause Heinz body anemia, resulting in a breakdown of the red blood cells and anemia.” Although the exact toxic dose is not known, studies unanimously agree that foods containing garlic should not be fed to dogs.

I have spoken with owners who have been feeding garlic to their dogs for years with no apparent ill effects. They maintain that, until something better is found to fight fleas, they will continue to feed garlic. Once again, it seems that we are far too willing to subject our pets to potentially dangerous substances in the name of convenience. If someone told you that feeding your dog arsenic would keep him from getting fleas, would you consider doing it? Of course not. The effects of garlic toxicity are not inconsequential. They include vomiting, diarrhea, anemia, tachycardia [irregular heart beat] weakness, liver damage, allergic reactions, asthmatic attacks, contact dermatitis, and gastrointestinal damage.

There are many forms of garlic—fresh raw, cooked, dried, oil of garlic—all of which pose the same serious risks when fed to dogs and cats. Jennifer Prince DVM states that “The bulbs, bulbets, flowers, and stems of the garlic and onion are all poisonous” and that “both fresh and dried (for use as spices) are equally dangerous.” In a paper titled: Toxin exposures in dogs and cats: Pesticides and Biotoxins, Michael J. Murphy, DVM, PhD, writes: “The active ingredient in oil of onion is allyl propyl disulfide; the active ingredient in oil of garlic is a similar compound called allicin. Garlic may cause contact dermatitis or imitate an asthmatic attack.” A 2001 study on the effect of garlic on the gastrointestinal mucosa compared the effects of several different forms of garlic on the lining of the stomach and intestines. The results of the study showed that the dehydrated boiled garlic powder caused “severe damage” to the lining of the stomach; the dehydrated raw garlic powder caused some reddening, and that the aged garlic extract had no ill effects on the stomach membranes. The study also found that feeding enteric-coated garlic tablets caused “loss of epithelial cells at the top of crypts in the ileum.”

The findings of this study would seem to be borne out in the tragic story of a woman in Pennsylvania who lost her beautiful Newfoundland show dog to what she believes was the use of garlic. Within two weeks of feeding a popular garlic supplement available at most pet stores and over the Internet, her Newfoundland developed a bleeding ulcer and perforated intestine. Sadly, the dog did not live. In a Case Report by Osamu Yamato, a 4-year-old miniature schnauzer presented with anorexia and was found to have a severe case of Heinz body hemolytic anemia. The cause? Two days earlier the dog had eaten some Chinese steamed dumplings which contained Chinese chive and garlic.
[ send green star] 

Muskyhusky K.
Muskyhusky has received 35 new, 2323 total stars from Care2 membersMuskyhusky has been awarded 300 butterflies for taking action at Care2 August 01, 2005 9:58 AM

In his book, Natural Health Bible for Dogs & Cats, Shawn Messonnier, DVM takes two pages to expound on the health benefits of feeding garlic. Here are excerpts from his list of safety issues: “Too much garlic can be toxic to pets, causing Heinz body anemia...Do not use in pets with anemia...Do not use in pets scheduled for surgery due to the possibility of increased bleeding times...Topical garlic can cause skin irritation, blistering, and even third-degree burns...Garlic may cause excess intestinal gas...Taking garlic at the same time as taking ginko or high-dose vitamin E might conceivably cause a risk of bleeding problems.” In my opinion, the potential risks of feeding garlic far outweigh any perceived benefits.

If you, as I do, find the evidence compelling enough to stop feeding garlic to your pets, you will need to look very closely at the ingredients in your pet food, treats, and supplements. Many pet foods, especially the new premium natural blends and many of the commercial raw diets, contain garlic. When you start looking at treats, you will find it difficult indeed to find a commercial treat recipe that does not contain garlic. Although it is relatively simple to avoid garlic supplements, you will find that many combination supplements, including most multi-vitamins contain a significant amount of garlic. When you look closely at what you are feeding your dog, you may find he is getting garlic in his food, his treats, and his vitamins and supplements. Granted, you may have been feeding garlic for years with no problems and therefore feel it must be safe. Let me remind you that the toxic levels remain undetermined. What if that toxic threshold is crossed with his very next meal or treat?

Laura Murphy
Pets By Nature


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## Guest

Abstract
http://tinyurl.com/2xnzsy


Two alk(en)yl thiosulfates, sodium n-propyl thiosulfate (NPTS) and sodium 2-propenyl thiosulfate (2PTS), are natural constituents of onion and garlic, respectively, which were identified originally as causative agents of onion- and garlic-induced hemolytic anemia in dogs. As a continuation of our studies on the beneficial functions of NPTS and 2PTS, in the present study, we investigated the antitumor effects of these compounds. They were shown to inhibit the in vitro proliferation of three human tumorigenic cell lines, WiDr, 293 and HL-60, in a dose-dependent manner. Overall, NPTS seemed to have weak activity for inhibiting cell growth compared with 2PTS, though not in WiDr cells, which were sensitive to both compounds. NPTS and 2PTS caused oxidative damage to HL-60 cells and induced apoptosis. The extent of apoptosis was approximately proportional to that of the oxidative damage and also to that of the cytotoxicity caused by these compounds. These results suggest that the alk(en)yl thiosulfates have an antitumor effect through the induction of apoptosis initiated by oxidative stress.


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## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/2bsy3r

Written by Margaret A. Wissman

(This article was in the Simian, the SSA's monthly newsletter, some time ago.)

As a veterinarian, I have known for many years that onions, whether fresh, cooked or dehydrated, can cause anemia in pets. I remember reading a case report years ago concerning a small dog that ate a good portion of a bag of fresh, whole onions one day while his owner was at work, and the dog was near death when discovered by his frantic owner. However, I continually read stories (including one in the most recent Simian Society Newsletter) about owners feeding onions to their monkeys, and I realize that most people have no idea of the dangers of feeding onions. So, I thought it would be a good idea to educate owners about onions.

Onions can cause Heinz-body hemolytic anemia. What is anemia? Anemia is any condition in which the number of red blood cells is decreased. Red blood cells carry oxygen to the tissues on a molecule called hemoglobin, and the number can be measured by counting the number of red blood cells (RBCs) or quantity of blood, or by the concentration of hemoglobin or by the measurement of the concentration of the blood (this is called PCV or packed cell volume.) RBCs are also known as erythrocytes. I know this is all technical, but bear with me just a bur. longer. Now let's go through what hemolytic means. Hemolysis is the destruction of RBCs, which liberates hemoglobin. So hemolytic refers to something that destroys RBCs in the blood stream. The last term that we need to understand is Heinz-body. This is a term used to describe changes that occur to RBCs when they are exposed to oxidants, including ingested onions. Heinz-body from when hemoglobin molecules are adversely changed and the hemoglobin coalesces in the RBCs. Heinz-body changes to RBCs are irreversible. These changes to the red cells make them more rigid, which is not good. Red Blood cells must bend and flex as the twist and turn on their course through the blood vessels of the body, and if they cannot, they may rupture or be filtered out of the bloodstream.

Let's now cut through all this medical jargon. What exactly does happen when onions are consumed? Simply put, onions cause red blood cells to become unable to function properly, then causing them to rupture. This cause anemia.

What clinical signs will occur with onion toxicosis? The signs that you see will depend on the amount of onions consumed, the length of time they have been fed, and the size of the animal. Gums (mucous membranes) may appear pale if there is moderate or severe anemia/ If lots of RBCs have ruptured, there may be hemoglobin in the urine, causing it to appear reddish or brown, or the tissues may become jaundiced. Weakness, depression, rapid heart rate and rapid respiratory rate may be observed as a result of there not being enough oxygen reaching the tissues (hypoxia). Vomiting, decreased appetite and diarrhea may also occur. Blood tests taken by your veterinarian will show certain characteristics. Heinz-bodies can be seen on blood smears and the packed cell volume will be decreased, indicating anemia. As the body tries to replace the damaged blood cells, certain characteristics may also be seen in the blood. Hemoglobin may be seen in the urine.

Many case reports have been published concerning Heinz-body hemolytic in dogs and cats. Most clinical cases have occurred in small dogs. One report describes Heinz-body hemolytic anemia in two cats fed onion soup! I know that many research facilities that house non-human primates will not feed them onions because of problems with anemia. One lab had anemia problems in baboons that were frequently fed onions. Since we know that onions can cause fatal hemolytic anemia, it is best to never feed them to our pet monkeys. However, there can be hidden onion in some products that we feed as well. For example, many veterinarians feed sick cats and kittens all-meat baby foods, and some cases of Heinz-body hemolytic anemia have occurred after these have been fed, Why? Check the label. You may be surprised to find that many baby food manufacturers add onions or onion powder to increase palatability. There can be enough onion products in these little jars to cause serious problems in these small creatures. A jar of chicken baby food that I have right here has this list of ingredients: chicken, water, modified corn starch, onion powder and extractive of celery. Another product that I like to feed, which is a good first solid for my baby monkeys are chicken sticks. However, let's go down the list of ingredients: chicken, water calcium reduced dried skim milk, salt sugar, onion powder, and garlic powder. I only offer this very infrequently to my toddler now! Onions are often added to products to enhance the flavor of many food, especially for human babies, so be sure to read the label carefully before feeding any prepared food to your monkeys.

What about onion toxicity in humans? Since damage from feeding onions seems worse in little dogs and cats, it may be that the amount of onion in baby foods is not enough to cause problems in humans, in relation to their size. But certainly, the amount of onion in baby foods can be potentially harmful to little marmosets, tamarins and other monkeys. And fresh or cooked onions will certainly cause a degree of Heinz-body formation in the blood of primates. Based on the information that we now have, I would recommend not feeding onions to monkeys at all. I would like to see labs that have experienced Heinz-body hemolytic anemia in monkeys fed onions write up the cases to present to other vets, so that others may learn the hazards of onions. So, please spread the word to other owners that onions should not be fed to non-human primates or other species of animals, as well.


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## Guest

Question
Your web site mentions that dogs and cats should not be fed either garlic or onions. I was under the belief that garlic was OK as were onions as long as they were cooked. Could you tell me more or give some references?
Answer
Feeding Onions/Garlic -

We do not recommend feeding garlic or onions to dogs or cats because there is a potentially serious downside. Onions and garlic contain an alkaloid disulfide compound that is toxic to red blood cell membranes and irreversibly denatures hemoglobin. This compound is toxic to several species including dogs and cats.

A Heinz body hemolytic anemia has been documented in dogs consuming relatively small amounts of raw, cooked and even dehydrated onions. Cat red blood cells develop Heinz bodies also after consuming onions. There have been reports of anemia, dermatitis and asthmatic attacks after the long term feeding of garlic and garlic extracts to dogs. The possibility of developing a Heinz body hemolytic anemia appears to be variable between pets, and it is not possible to predict which animals may or may not have such a reaction to onion or garlic.

References:

1. ONIONS and GARLIC (Allium sp) can cause intravascular hemolysis with Heinz bodies, hemoglobinemia, hemoglobinuria, anisocytosis, poikilocytosis, reticulocytosis, and anemia. Supportive treatment with blood transfusions and fluids may be helpful.

Michael J. Murphy, DVM, PhD
Department of Veterinary Diagnostic Medicine, 1333 Gortner Ave, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St Paul, MN 55108.

Toxin exposures in dogs and cats: Pesticides and Biotoxins J Am Vet Med Assoc 205[3]:414-421 Aug 1'94


2. The most common cause of Heinz body hemolysis in dogs is related to ingestion of onions. Their toxic effect appears to be equal whether raw, cooked, or dehydrated. Although the toxicity has been known for over 50 years, animal owners still unknowingly feed onions to dogs, usually as part of table scraps. The hemolytic episode may be difficult to correlate with onion ingestion because it occurs several days later. Clinical signs are related to moderate anemia. Experimental onion toxicity has recently been characterized using a single dose of dehydrated onions.

Harvey JW and Rackear D: Experimental onion-induced hemolytic anemia in dogs. Vet Pathol 22:387, 1985.

3. Hematologic changes associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes after intragastric administration of garlic extract to dogs.

Lee KW, Yamato O, Tajima M, Kuraoka M, Omae S, Maede Y.

Am J Vet Res 2000 Nov 61(11):1446-50

Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, Graduate School of Veterinary Medicine, Hokkaido University, Sapporo, Japan.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether dogs given garlic extract developed hemolytic anemia and to establish the hematologic characteristics induced experimentally by intragastric administration of garlic extract.

ANIMALS: 8 healthy adult mixed-breed dogs.

PROCEDURE: 4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight (5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days. The remaining 4 control dogs received water instead of garlic extract. Complete blood counts were performed, and methemoglobin and erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentrations, percentage of erythrocytes with Heinz bodies, and percentage of eccentrocytes were determined before and for 30 days after administration of the first dose of garlic extract. Ultrastructural analysis of eccentrocytes was performed. RESULTS: Compared with initial values, erythrocyte count, Hct, and hemoglobin concentration decreased to a minimum value on days 9 to 11 in dogs given garlic extract. Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes were also detected in these dogs. However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs.

4. Heinz Body Formation In Cats Fed Baby Food Containing Onion Powder

Jane E. Robertson, DVM; Mary M. Christopher, DVM, PhD; Quinton R. Rogers, PhD

Dept. of Pathology, Microbiology and Immunology, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616-8734

J Am Vet Med Assoc 212[8]:1260-1266 Apr 15'98

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether cats fed baby food with onion powder develop Heinz bodies and anemia and to establish a dose-response relation between dietary onion powder content and Heinz body formation.

DESIGN: Prospective study.
ANIMALS: 42 healthy, adult, specific-pathogen-free cats.

PROCEDURE: Commercial baby food with and without onion powder was fed to 2 groups of 6 cats for 5 weeks. Heinz body percentage, PCV, reticulocyte percentage, turbidity index, and methemoglobin and reduced glutathione concentrations were determined twice weekly and then weekly for 4 weeks following removal of the diet. For the dose-response study, 5 groups of 6 cats were fed a canned diet for 2 months that contained 0, 0.3, 0.75, 1.5, or 2.5% onion powder. Heinz body percentage, PCV, and reticulocyte percentage were determined twice weekly.
http://tinyurl.com/2b64vz


RESULTS: Compared with cats fed baby food without onion powder, cats ingesting baby food with onion powder had significantly higher Heinz body percentages that peaked at 33 to 53%. Methemoglobin concentration also significantly increased but did not exceed 1.2%. Glutathione concentration, PCV, and food intake did not differ between the 2 groups. Rate and degree of Heinz body formation differed significantly between various onion powder concentrations fed. Compared with 0% onion powder, the diet with 2.5% onion powder caused a significant decrease in PCV and an increased punctate reticulocyte percentage.

CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Baby food or other foods containing similar amounts of onion powder should be avoided for use in cats because of Heinz body formation and the potential for development of anemia, particularly with high food intake. Cats with diseases associated with oxidative stress may develop additive hemoglobin damage when fed baby food containing onion powder.


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## KIPPY

> Let's now cut through all this medical jargon. What exactly does happen when onions are consumed? Simply put, onions cause red blood cells to become unable to function properly, then causing them to rupture. This cause anemia.


Thank you for making it simple. My head is spinning trying to keep up with this thread.

Not sure when the onion came into the thread and onion soup is not on the menu for my dog. I give brewers yeast and garlic tabs to my dog (14 yrs). I'm sure it's fine as I follow the directions. She has hip problems but I don't think it's from the garlic.



> The cause? Two days earlier the dog had eaten some Chinese steamed dumplings which contained Chinese chive and garlic.


Why was this dog eating this in the first place?

I ordered the Garlic juice from Foys. What to do, What to do....


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## Pidgey

Well, I don't think we need to get ridiculous about it at this point. It's a fact that garlic lowers cholesterol and we're not sure why. Some people have believed that it was the Allicin but recent studies have shown that Allicin isn't the chemical responsible. It looks more like it's the "S Allyl Cysteine" and testing is underway on that one right now. Apparently, there have been over a hundred compounds discovered and under investigation in various garlic preparations, some of which show some real promise like the one above. And we haven't done any testing on anything yet with pigeons to know anything negative, so hold your horses.

When this is all over it may just be that we'll have a dosage relative to a body weight to stay within, or something like "don't feed raw garlic cloves to a pigeon--put it in the water instead" or "only use the capsules" or whatever... but there's only enough info at this point to suggest that we might ought to do some looking into it.

Pidgey


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## Guest

And now for the pros instead of the cons:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww56e.htm

GARLIC (Allium sativum) -- Garlic is helpful in the prevention of illness caused by viral, fungal, and bacterial pathogens. In fact, Garlic contains an impressive number (eighteen to be exact) of anti-viral, anti-fungal, and anti-bacterial substances! Studies have shown activity similar to the antibiotic, chloramphenicol, which is sometimes used to treat parrot illness. Garlic also contains anti-parasitic properties. Treating for parasites with conventional remedies can be harmful to the liver, but garlic kills many intestinal parasites without harming liver tissue. It actually protects the liver from the damage of chemical pollutants in the air, food and water supply. Researchers at the University of Cambridge in England found that garlic juice is as strong as Amphotericin and Nystatin, anti-fungal drugs used to combat a common problem of parrots.

A chemical in garlic called allyl sulfide is showing promise in cancer research. The organic allyl sulfur component of garlic inhibits the cancer process. Studies have shown that the benefits of garlic are not limited to a specific species, a particular tissue, or a specific carcinogen.

Fresh garlic, rather than concentrated forms such as garlic powder, should be offered to parrots. Garlic belongs to a family of plants that can cause anemia in some animals if given in large amounts for long periods of time. I can find no evidence that garlic is harmful to parrots but because of the anemia problem with other small animals, I would not feed it in large quantities. One clove from a regular size bulb of garlic (not an entire bulb of many cloves) given two or three times a week is sufficient as a preventive food supplement for parrots, who love the pungent taste. Leave the peeling on so that the birds can unwrap their aromatic and medicinal food gift from Mother Nature.


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## Guest

It may not help but it may not hurt:

http://ift.confex.com/ift/2003/techprogram/paper_19486.htm


Effect of feeding garlic on preventing/reducing intestinal colonization of Campylobacter jejuni in broilers

G. ZHANG, L. Ma, and M. P. Doyle. Center for Food Safety, Univ. of Georgia, Dept. of Food Science & Technology, 1109 Experiment St., Griffin, GA 30223-1797

Garlic has been used to treat infectious intestinal diseases in human because it is highly antimicrobial to some bacteria and fungi. This study was done to determine the preventive and therapeutic effect of feeding ground garlic on colonization of Campylobacter jejuni in broilers. Sixteen broilers (41 weeks of age), pre-colonized experimentally with 6 C. jejuni isolates, were randomly assigned into eight groups and fed ground garlic at 0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5g/day/broiler. Ground garlic was mixed with feed and fed for seven consecutive days. Cecal shedding of C. jejuni before, during, and after garlic feeding was monitored. Results revealed that, regardless of the dosage fed, garlic had no significant effect on colonization of C. jejuni. In another trial, fifteen broilers (42 weeks of age), pre-colonized with one C. jejuni isolate, were fed ground garlic at 3.5g/day/broiler for three consecutive days. There were no significant changes in the shedding of C. jejuni in these experimentally infected broilers. To determine the preventive effect of feeding garlic on colonization of Campylobacter, Campylobacter-negative broilers (45 weeks of age) were co-caged with pre-colonized (one strain of C. jejuni) broilers (as seeders) and fed ground garlic (2.5 and 3.5g/day/broiler) daily. On day 5, cecal shedding of Campylobacter in these birds was determined. All the birds were positive for Campylobacter. However, birds receiving the 3.5g garlic treatment carried less Campylobacter than those receiving 2.5g treatment. Results suggest that feeding garlic is not effective in preventing Campylobacter colonization in adult broilers. However, the effect of feeding garlic on preventing the colonization of Campylobacter in young broilers merits study since the microbial flora in the intestines of young birds are less stable than that in adult birds and therefore, might be more sensitive to the antimicrobial activity of garlic.


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## Guest

There was some impact to the blood but no signs of anything terribly bad.

http://www.ajol.info/viewarticle.php?jid=215&id=25594&layout=abstract

Growth, haematological and biochemical studies on garlic- and ginger-fed broiler chickens
Request Article

SG Ademola, Department of Animal Production and Health, Ladoke Akintola University of Technology, Ogbomoso
GO Farinu
AO Ajayi Obe
GM Babatunde


Abstract
The effects of dietary garlic and ginger on the growth performance and blood composition of broiler chickens were investigated. One hundred and ninety six 7-day-old broiler chicks were randomly allocated to seven dietary treatments. Each treatment contained two replicates. Control diet contained 0% garlic and 0% ginger. Treatments T1, T2 and T3 contained garlic at 5g/kg, 10g/kg and 15g/kg respectively. Ginger supplements were concentrated in the diets at 5g/kg, 10g/kg, 15g/kg for treatments T4, T5 and T6 respectively. There were no significant differences in the average final live weights of birds on the different treatments. However, birds on garlic and ginger treatments had slightly better (P>0.05) average feed intake, weight gain and final live weight than those on the control diet. The supplements caused significant differences in the average weights (g) of the shank (P<0.01), wings, drumstick, lung and liver (P<0.05). The weight (%) of wings and lungs when expressed on relative basis, were significantly (P<0.05) affected by the dietary treatments. There were general decreases in most of the haematological parameters of birds fed garlic and ginger. Birds in treatments T2, T4, T5 and T6 had about 10.3%, 4.8%, 8.5% and 13.9% reductions in packed cell volume respectively, while total white blood cells and neutrophils were increased by about 18.7% and 20.4% respectively for birds on garlic and ginger treatments when compared to those on the control diet. Lymphocytes, monocytes, eosinophils, serum total protein and albumin were not affected by the dietary treatments. In conclusion, seven weeks of feeding garlic and ginger did not significantly promote the growth of broilers and there was a marked effect on the haematological parameters that revealed the haemolytic activity of the supplements.


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## Guest

http://birdtoyoutlet.com/bird-safety/article-nutrition.htm

Garlic, a member of the onion family, is an absolutely wonderful herb when used correctly and as only a small portion of the diet. It has been shown to be effective against some bacteria, some fungal disease and is also a good immune system builder/enhancer. However, it is also possible to ingest too much raw garlic. It’s not known how much garlic could cause problems in birds but the toxic dosage for dogs and cats is any amount greater than .05% of the animal’s body weight.

I am aware of a parrot’s death supposedly from garlic toxicosis, although only one case has been reported, resulting from unusually very high amounts of raw garlic that were in the parrot’s digestive system 24 hours a day for several days. The dosage given was 12.5-25 times more than the toxic dosage by body weight for a dog or cat. A more appropriate amount to give a parrot for medicinal or immune support purposes may be approximately 1/2 clove (finely chopped) or less to a 1500g parrot. One can see that just a very small amount of some foods is needed to be effective and how easily the portions and amounts can possibly be overdone, especially if fed several times day, for many days. More does NOT mean better! Garlic may also be given in powder form or in kyolic form (aged garlic) and achieve the same health benefits.


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## Guest

What I'm getting out of all of this is that old adage, "Everything in moderation." 
A little is good and a lot is toxic. The problem we all have is how much is too much and I don't know the answer to that one.


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## mr squeaks

WOW! Thanks for all the information, Pigeonperson! I know that took a lot of time!

While we may be almost back where we started (should we? should we not?), I, too, agree about moderation. I immediately checked the cat food I'm feeding to see if there was any garlic or onion among the ingredients. There were not. I've never given Squeaks garlic...

I've already given other opinions in this thread in earlier posts and won't repeat myself. 

Those who have healthy birds are doing something right! Until more info is known, I would tend to follow their lead...

One size does NOT fit all, so discretion and common sense are a must.

With a site like ours, there is no reason why we can't make a difference in pigeon health. Even Vets may listen!


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## Pidgey

I guess the entries that I got the most out of were the ones on the Campylobacter jejuni and the other one on the trying to increase the broiler weights. Not much effect on the first and some interesting effects on the second. You'd think that the bone masses going up would be a good thing but that's not true. For instance, in the racehorses of Kentucky where the soil and water are loaded with calcium due to the abundant limestone, their bones are usually smaller and yet still stronger. And the lung sizes would have to be larger due to the diminished RBC's because it would take larger lungs to do the job. That's one of those deals where the deprivations of childhood cause anatomical and physiological changes to make up the deficit. For the purpose of that study, it's all economics anyhow--is there a cheap additive that can ultimately bring more money at the weigh-in when it's time to sell. Broiler buyers don't want more bone and organs--they want meat.

Also, that last link and entry by pigeonperson gives some idea of a starting point for the tests. The "safe" dose for a 400 gram pigeon (assuming it's equal with the suggestion for the parrot) would be 200 milligrams of the raw stuff. I just weighed an average clove (without peeling off the dry stuff on the outside) and it came to 1888 milligrams, so 944 for half plus you'd have to subtract the weight of the stuff that you took off getting to the regular part. Adjusting for the weight difference between the parrot and the 400 gram example pigeon, you'd be sitting at 250 milligrams (400/1500*944=252) minus the stuff that you'd take off, so figure 220, which would be about 1/4th of the 1/2 clove, or 1/8th clove for a 400 gram pigeon which would (usually) be a smaller homer or a pretty good sized feral.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Thank you Maggie for your thoughts also.

I don't have any problem with doing research and testing as the Allicidin Complex and Liquid is a RESULT of many years of testing. 

Right or wrong, I just want you all to know there is quite a difference between ordinary kitchen garlic and the encapsulated Allicidin Complex. I have used both extensively and see quite a difference in long term use. The product speaks for themselves, so I don't need to defend it.

If it comes to it and we find negative results using the table garlic I will be the first to stop its use, of course.

I also want to emphasize that garlic is NOT a drug, it is a product of nature, and being that there is absoutely nothing devistating about it, except for what happens to it when it gets into different hands. Some companies will alter it, isolate it, remove or add different compounds at random, and add chemical by products to either try to enhance it or incapsulate it. There is where the problem lies. Yes, there have been serious side effects of products put out in the market, only after someone has either over-sed it, used it inappropriately, with additional stuff, or used an inferior product. Also, if someone's immune system is not up to parr, and then all of a sudden they start putting good things in their bodies, they will initially experience negative feelings of illness.That is quite different from reactions and side effects of drugs. 

Health for me, and maintaining it, has always been priority one. I will always use the organic products first and foremost. I avocate the use of them for my birds, because of the results I get, but mostly because of the responses Doreen has gotten over the years. It is because of her results and extensive knowledge that I'm HERE to always offer the other sollution/the better way.
If there is an alternative I will use it, and I will advocate it IF and only IF I personally see unbelievable responses. I shared the fact that I used organic/homemade kefir with you, when I used it on my birds with incredible wet poopies (coccidiosis, probably-as they had all the symptoms). I ran out of the encapsulated probiotics. What a few days difference, it was quite messy feeding it down them, but results were tripple fold and much quicker-on the other end. 

I myself, have been in the nutrition business for over 15 years now (long before I met Doreen) and I have seen many wonderful health responses in humans,with Shaklee products, but much more now with these new products that have come out on the market. I will offer whatever works, and that is not necessarily Shaklee. I have lost a lot of business because of it.

If there is not a health response in someone that has started a program it is usually a deep seated infection that requires not only lifestyle change, but detox in step by step proceedure, and then there is also PH problems. Old injuries and scar tissue are also bumps in the road that can cause people not to have positive health responses. There is much more to it, folks then dietary changes.

You cannot know exactly where I am coming from until you take the first step, and actually try the organic/natural way. I was the BIGGEST skeptic, until I actually tried it, and hopefully I'm a better person for it.

Lets all try the chapparell tea sometime for de-worming okay? I have bought some of it, and unfortunately/or fortunately never have had a bird with worms to try it on. So, I could use some help...here. Doreen has seen results, but I can't get her to post, she is way too busy. 

Has anyone used it here? Has anyone used any of the products I advocate to give anothers' first hand experieince?

Oh well, I will keep plugging away at it, and maybe someday I can get Doreen to post.


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## feralpigeon

Treesa, I hope that one day you are able to get your very experienced and
knowledgable rehabber to post here, something we all could benefit from.

In the meantime, I'll continue to use natural products as I know from past and present experience how successful they can be without compromising the health of an already compromised bird. Clinical Avian Medicine interestingly enough has some entries for the medicinal use of garlic for birds and it is apparently especially useful for birds w/cancer. 

There are most probably deaths resulting from the use of antibiotics and anti-inflamatories in birds as they occur in humans and have been well documented (for instance the links that I posted earlier).
The problem is that we don't have the same money poured into developing
statistics on this topic where birds are concerned, especially pigeons. 

Moderation is a no-brainer in so many facets of life, why it wouldn't be here
or with the use of drugs in general, is mind boggling. 

fp


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## Skyeking

Thanks fp, I will keep using what works, without all the unnecessary side effects.

I am especially concerned with de-wormers and their effects on birds. You know if they kill worms there is some toxin involved. And like you said, when you have an already immune compromised bird, you want to take it slowly, and easy, without bombarding them with too much, so if there is one with a heavy case of parasite infestation I would certainly try the chapparel first, just haven't had one. I'd better be careful what I wish for, cause I certainly don't want a heavily infested immune supressed bird.


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## Maggie-NC

Pigeonperson, thank you for all the research you did. It took a lot of time. I'm going to read every bit of it, maybe several times because it takes awhile for some things to sink in  but I'll get there!

Treesa, thank you too for your post. It was very good and informative.

Folks, for me, this is turning into a real learning process and I am grateful to know such smart people.


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## Pidgey

Just out of curiosity, where on earth do you think "drugs", particularly antibiotics, come from? Did you think some chemist just sat around mixing compounds and trying them on things? We get our antibiotics mostly from the study of other living things and the chemicals they create and use to do their jobs and life processes. Molds, for instance, are a big one because they create chemicals to break things down for digestion purposes that plays in real well against a lot of the pathogenic organisms that cause disease in us. Sometimes, we can synthesize the chemical and sometimes we have to mass produce the producing organism and get the things we want from them.

Many other drugs are of plant origin, other animal. The entire pharmaceutical process is to refine the desired components to the point of repeatability of results. The big drug companies in this country or desiring to export to this country have to work within the rules of the FDA in terms of testing through incredibly expensive trials (100's of millions of dollars for a single drug, usually) BEFORE the product can hit the shelves and then they're still legally liable if someone has even a POSSIBLE bad reaction out "in the field" and humanity is a pretty big chunk of diversity.

To be absolutely fair, supplements that are commercially produced but do not claim to be drugs, NEVER MIND HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR AREN'T, and the companies that produce them are not legally liable, nor are they required to perform all of the clinical trials that drugs do. In other words, you are at their mercy in terms of delivery on promise and are simply not protected by the laws of the land in much of any way, shape or form. That some of those companies may be doing it right is not the issue here, the point is: they don't have to, and that is a scary proposition. You are on your own whenever you take supplements that are not under the umbrella of the law.

Is there corruption in the major pharmaceutical industry? Sure. Is it replete with it? I don't think so because, at least in this country, we made and continue to make the laws that govern the industry. When bad things happen, drugs are pulled and responsible parties in willful negligence cases are hunted down. That's NOT going to happen with garlic or any garlic product, you can be sure.

If garlic is going to be promoted as a substance to enhance health or, more appropriately to this discussion, to rehab a sick individual, and has tangible consequences in overdose, then how on earth can it not be considered a "drug"? To continue even further with the debate, how could one possibly take that a step further and advocate a refined product and not consider that a drug even moreso? The only difference that I can see in the big picture is that with a true "drug", if things go real sour, you have the rights to compensation whereas with a "supplement", you don't. And once again, that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the actual product and its efficacy and sincerity, only its marketing and liability.

Methinks that at the core of the sideline debate going on here, there is something much deeper, some underlying philosophical difference in how the seeming two sides see things. I'd get the overall impression reading between the lines that on the one hand, you've got the The Children of The Light versus The Forces of Darkness. Take your pick on who's who. 

All I want to know from this thread and discussion is IF there is one lousy little problem with a substance given to sick pigeons and WHAT it is IF it exists, and HOW to manage it if it can be. I have outlined the most easily performed and reliable indicating test to that end, as I see it, and am collaborating with at least one vet for that purpose.

So... what's the problem here?

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Pidgey, I sometimes think of us here at this board kinda' like a cyber family, and as I am sure you know, families do not always walk lockstep together and do differ in opinion at times.



> Methinks that at the core of the sideline debate going on here, that there is something much deeper, some underlying philosophical difference in how the seeming two sides see things. I'd get the overall impression reading between the lines that on the one hand, you've got the The Children of The Light versus The Forces of Darkness. Take your pick on who's who.


I don't really see it as two sides philosophically lining up on the side of Light or Dark, but more like I have experienced in my own family, some prefer to try more natural remedies before they resort to prescribed medicines, and they always will resort to them, if a supplement or homeopathic remedy has not offered an alleviation of symptoms or cure.

I also think that maybe part of what you are reading between the lines is just people being a little protective of another family member they feel that might have taken this thread as being directed at them. I know it wasn't, but I can see how it could have been construed that way.

Pidgey, I hope we all know you well enough to know that your point in starting this thread was not to cause any distention or hurt feelings within the family ranks, but out of a real concern that there may be some vital information that we as a group and family needed/need to know, or be aware of.

I don't think there is a problem, I think we would all like to know the answer.

Ron


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## Feather

I am in the market for a new dewormer. Tell me about the tea. Does it work for dogs and humans as well.

Jazaroo, you are right about a big family, so I will consider this our dinner table discussion.

I use to feed my Yorkies the avocado brand dog food. I always gave them pieces of avocado as well. When they started eating that brand, they grew the longest silkiest hair. Now I hear that avocados are poisonous to dogs.

Go figure

Feather


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## Guest

I never knew that about dogs but the one sure way to kill a bird is to feed it avocado. It's very toxic for them.


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## Guest

We aren't asking the right question. There is plenty of documentation on the web that shows dogs are susceptible to hemolytic anemia due to onions of which garlic is related. There is only one case of a conure dying after eating garlic but in that situation, the bird ate a large amount of raw garlic and even there, the cause of death wasn't stated so that isn't any kind of proof that garlic kills birds.
The question to be asked of the members here is; have any of your garlic eating birds died and did a necropsy show that the cause of death was due to hemolytic anemia? We need a lot more proof but the science just isn't there yet.

Mammals are a lot different than avians and what can kill one does not necessarily work the same way with another. We can eat avocado with no problems whatsoever but give it to any bird and it will drop dead.

I just had another thought and edited this post to add it. Go and ask a vet if you should put a bird on probiotics. The answer is going to be sure. Why not? It can't hurt but, and I wish I could remember where on the web I've read this, some vets feel a probiotic is useless because the mouth bacteria will kill the probiotic before it even reaches the gut. So a vet will say giving a probiotic is fine because it won't hurt but actually, does it help? Where is the science one way or another?
In areas like these none of us know enough.


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## Feather

Pidgey, 

I am not taking sides. I don't know enough to debate anyone on the health of pigeons. I do know that since I have been a member on this forum, and started using garlic and AVC in my water, that I have not lost any birds to any illness. 

I am not keeping a closed mind as to anything final. I have been a hair dresser for 30 years, and I would no more recommend the same products to my clients that I swore by 30/20/10/ even 5 years ago. As a matter of fact some of those products are so bad that they don't even sell them any more.

Natuaral products do seem to out live chemicals. But new findings are never ending. When my mother was ill they did not want her to eat anything that you put in a salad. So I know that all natural is not the way to go all of the time. 

In order to have light there has to be darkness, what ever shade we fall under we need each other. What a boring thread you would have here without all of the flavors.

Feather


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## Skyeking

Feather said:


> I am in the market for a new dewormer. Tell me about the tea. Does it work for dogs and humans as well.
> 
> Feather


Hi Feather,

You can use chaparell tea to deworm pigeons, other birds and EVEN squirrels- as Doreen has done it, I do not know if you can use it to de-worm dogs or cats.

She recommended 20 cc's down the crop as a major dewormer for an adult pigeon. If you suspect any kind of infestation, watch out as it can be nasty what comes out.

I could not find the tea at our local health shop so I purchased the encapsulated kind. It's 500 mg. She said I could use one capsule of that per day, but still haven't found cause to use it.

There is a product called Parastat that contains all kinds of herbs (including Holarrhena Antidysenterica and Indrajae, it is for humans, but has been shown to have positive effects on my sister and niece's cats. It is an intestinal cleanser and wide range of anti-parasitic action, except for liver flukes and filaria. I asked Dr. Marshall if it could be used on pigeons and the response was absolutely not.

So you have to be careful and ask specifically the manufacturer of the product what you want to use it for.


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## Lin Hansen

Feather said:


> Pidgey,
> 
> I am not taking sides. I don't know enough to debate anyone on the health of pigeons. I do know that since I have been a member on this forum, and started using garlic and AVC in my water, that I have not lost any birds to any illness.
> 
> I am not keeping a closed mind as to anything final. I have been a hair dresser for 30 years, and I would no more recommend the same products to my clients that I swore by 30/20/10/ even 5 years ago. As a matter of fact some of those products are so bad that they don't even sell them any more.
> 
> Natuaral products do seem to out live chemicals. But new findings are never ending. When my mother was ill they did not want her to eat anything that you put in a salad. So I know that all natural is not the way to go all of the time.
> 
> In order to have light there has to be darkness, what ever shade we fall under we need each other. What a boring thread you would have here without all of the flavors.
> 
> Feather


Feather, great post!

I hope that no one here feels that they would be taking sides by engaging in this type of a discussion. In my opinion, something like this is a good thing---to put both pros and cons of a topic out there and allow people to make informed decisions for themselves. JMHO.....

Linda


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## Pidgey

Trees Gray said:


> Pidgey, you used the thread on a poor dying bird as an example of possible garlic caused death. First of all, the bird was fed three different things, not just garlic, and second of all, that bird was already gone way down hill before the administration of garlic.
> 
> I'm sorry you had such negative effects from garlic, but why would you even eat a raw clove? I don't advocate giving raw garlic down the throat, I always recommend putting it in their drinking water, or using the encapsulated superior product.
> 
> I appreciate your honesty here, *but you are undermining the use of garlic*, that SO many people including I have used extensively for years, with NO negative effects, in fact, just the opposite.
> 
> How about some double blind studies...are there any? proof of vacines?


Well, admittedly, I got a bit miffed at this... accusation, for lack of a better word. I can go back in several places and show where I specifically stated that not only is the jury not in yet but that the trial hasn't even been conducted--we haven't even had the formal police investigation yet. I took this statement to mean that there shouldn't even be a trial to begin with and I'm the corrupt prosecuting attorney. That just irks me. 

Further discourse hasn't done anything to put a different focus on it, either. How in the world am I supposed to feel? If I'd brought up something like that about Baytril, do you think I'd have gotten that kind of flak?

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Pidgey, as to my response, if you were directing the question to me, anything other then beeing in the natural state and altered chemically or otherwise is considered a drug. The garlic clove is still entirely in its natural state.This is an herb NOT a drug. Yes, you can OD on it, but you can OD on alot of stuff, like protein bars, and feel the ill effects should one decide to do something stupid like that. You can OD on food, as too much of anything is not good.

Most supplements that are commercially sold, yes are altered and have additives put in them which to me, means they are somewhat more like drugs. Then there are the few companies, with products that are quality products, as natural as possible, or even completely natural, unaltered, nothing artificially done to enhance them, that are NOT drugs. They are truly FOOD, designed by our Creator to provide optimum nourishment to the human body. From the raw material to the finished product, nothing less

I agree about regulations on some products out there, but then they would regulate the truly superior ones also, and that would be wrong. These are the companies who do their own clinical testing and guarantee their products, and have published their reports in Lancet. 

You are on your own no matter what you do, people make good choices, and people make bad choices, but we should be free to be able to make those choices, just like the choices we make as to what type of restaurant we want to visit, the heavily fat laiden burger joints or the better restaurants where you have your choice of the good and bad.

It is up to every person to take charge of their health, know what is in the container you pick up at the store, and be responsible. 

It is impossible to debate this without controversy, and I'm not going there anymore, I will not respond. 

I am WAY off topic, so please get back to the garlic testing, I'm done, and am sorry to intrude on your thread and will no longer intrude anymore.


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## Pidgey

The person who originally contacted me wanted to point out something. In this post I worked it out a preliminary "safe" dose:



Pidgey said:


> Also, that last link and entry by pigeonperson gives some idea of a starting point for the tests. The "safe" dose for a 400 gram pigeon (assuming it's equal with the suggestion for the parrot) would be 200 milligrams of the raw stuff. I just weighed an average clove (without peeling off the dry stuff on the outside) and it came to 1888 milligrams, so 944 for half plus you'd have to subtract the weight of the stuff that you took off getting to the regular part. Adjusting for the weight difference between the parrot and the 400 gram example pigeon, you'd be sitting at 250 milligrams (400/1500*944=252) minus the stuff that you'd take off, so figure 220, which *would be about 1/4th of the 1/2 clove, or 1/8th clove for a 400 gram pigeon *which would (usually) be a smaller homer or a pretty good sized feral.
> 
> Pidgey


...based on this text for a 1,500 gram parrot as mentioned:



pigeonperson said:


> http://birdtoyoutlet.com/bird-safety/article-nutrition.htm
> 
> Garlic, a member of the onion family, is an absolutely wonderful herb when used correctly and as only a small portion of the diet. It has been shown to be effective against some bacteria, some fungal disease and is also a good immune system builder/enhancer. However, it is also possible to ingest too much raw garlic. It’s not known how much garlic could cause problems in birds but the toxic dosage for dogs and cats is any amount greater than .05% of the animal’s body weight.
> 
> I am aware of a parrot’s death supposedly from garlic toxicosis, although only one case has been reported, resulting from unusually very high amounts of raw garlic that were in the parrot’s digestive system 24 hours a day for several days. The dosage given was 12.5-25 times more than the toxic dosage by body weight for a dog or cat. *A more appropriate amount to give a parrot for medicinal or immune support purposes may be approximately 1/2 clove (finely chopped) or less to a 1500g parrot.* One can see that just a very small amount of some foods is needed to be effective and how easily the portions and amounts can possibly be overdone, especially if fed several times day, for many days. More does NOT mean better! Garlic may also be given in powder form or in kyolic form (aged garlic) and achieve the same health benefits.


...but the person questioned the existence of a 1,500 gram (1.5 kilograms; 3.31 lbs) parrot. So, one has to wonder if the original text was a typo and thus again where to start.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Pidgey, the world's largest Parrot is the Hyacinth Macaw and its average weight is between 1400-1700 or so grams, so there are Parrots that weigh 1500 grams. The next step down are some of the other Macaws and they are usually around 1000-1200 grams. I guess it could have been a typo, but the weight is well within the range for the largest ones.

Ron


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## SmithFamilyLoft

It has been quite a few years since I have taken Biology 101, and quite frankly, I think I would prefer a root canal, to the thought of wading through all the copywrited material pasted on this thread, in reference to the possible dangers. 

This idea, that raw garlic would kill or otherwise be harmful to my pigeons, just seems to me, so remotely far out there, that ......well, I just wonder if some common sense to problem solving could be applied here ? 

If raw garlic in water, garlic juice, garlic oil, garlic powder, Allicin over feed, Wild garlic extract, has done only good, over the personal experience of some of my friends equallying hundreds of years, why would the slices of garlic itself, now be some sort of deadly danger ?

My head says it is not a danger,..... or else I have been lucky that a pigeon did not accidently injest a slice of raw garlic that was put in the water.  

Of course if you shove a clove down a windpipe, expect bad results, and if you shove it down the throat of a dying bird, expect garlic to be found in the crop at the autopsy. That is what I am thinking anyway.

But, ...hey it is a good educational experience. Intellectual discussion and new ideas and thoughts are how we progress. So how do you prove that even raw garlic is safe ?

I am so confident, that raw garlic is completely safe, that perhaps I will slice some and eat it, and allow by birds to do the same. I may have already done it with sliced onions in the past, not knowing of any possible "danger".. As I offer my pigeons a wide variety of vegetables and greens all the time.  

So how many days of sliced garlic, will I have to offer, to assure myself, that even this practice is safe ? How many cloves would a single pigeon have to consume in order to clearly demostrate it is "Safe" ? I would never use my pigeons as the "guinea pig", in a situation where I thought it would mean possible danger. I am just sort of asking it as a rhetorical question, since even very safe products can kill with a large overdose. I was just wondering how much I would have to allow Mister Ripple to injest, so that someone fearful of it's use, would say...OK, I feel comfortable putting a few cloves in a gallon of water ? Since Mister Ripple didn't drop dead after eating a slice ! 

For those who feel that further investagation is needed, that is fine with me, I just wanted to offer my personal experience and testimony, as my advice is to use garlic regularly on your racing pigeons, and my preferred method is several fresh cloves sliced and in the prepared water.


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## Guest

Warren,
I said it before. How many birds have you lost and were any of them necropsied to determine if the cause of death was tied directly to garlic? We need science on this topic and we just don't have enough. If you believe that it's a good aid for your birds, keep using it. Obviously, you aren't feeding enough of it to cause damage so you hit on the right amount.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*Science when available is great !*



pigeonperson said:


> Warren,
> I said it before. How many birds have you lost and were any of them necropsied to determine if the cause of death was tied directly to garlic? We need science on this topic and we just don't have enough. If you believe that it's a good aid for your birds, keep using it. Obviously, you aren't feeding enough of it to cause damage so you hit on the right amount.


Hey Pigeon Person,

I never had a fatality due to sickness in a mature pigeon, so I never had an opportunity to conduct such a test. You are correct, we could also use more science on every aspect of our pigeons. Unlike my medicine cabinet, where billions have been invested on the various pills that are stored there. How much "Science" has gone into any of the commercial pigeon products sold today ? Most if not 98% has been produced by research on other birds, like chickens. 

When I have a headache, I reach for a bottle of commercial XYZ and my headache is gone. I never really paid much attention to what science or research went into it. But, I can tell you my brand works for me. Perhaps some day, some rich millionaire will leave some millions to some University to do research on the effects of XYZ on a homing pigeon, and we will have the science to explain why certain things like Garlic or ACV cause the positive effects that they do. But for the most part, I don't think I will see that anytime soon. 

So the challenging and sometime frustrating truth about pigeons, is there is always going to be that lack of science, to confirm the value or danger of many if not most of the products currently in use. And if the products do have some research behind it, it is often on other types of animals and not pigeons. 

And what makes it so facinating, is that has always been the case with pigeons.

Never would have thought that a subject such as "Garlic" could be such a "Hot" topic !


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## mr squeaks

Pidgey said:


> Just out of curiosity, where on earth do you think "drugs", particularly antibiotics, come from? Did you think some chemist just sat around mixing compounds and trying them on things? We get our antibiotics mostly from the study of other living things and the chemicals they create and use to do their jobs and life processes. Molds, for instance, are a big one because they create chemicals to break things down for digestion purposes that plays in real well against a lot of the pathogenic organisms that cause disease in us. Sometimes, we can synthesize the chemical and sometimes we have to mass produce the producing organism and get the things we want from them.
> 
> Many other drugs are of plant origin, other animal. The entire pharmaceutical process is to refine the desired components to the point of repeatability of results. The big drug companies in this country or desiring to export to this country have to work within the rules of the FDA in terms of testing through incredibly expensive trials (100's of millions of dollars for a single drug, usually) BEFORE the product can hit the shelves and then they're still legally liable if someone has even a POSSIBLE bad reaction out "in the field" and humanity is a pretty big chunk of diversity.
> 
> To be absolutely fair, supplements that are commercially produced but do not claim to be drugs, NEVER MIND HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR AREN'T, and the companies that produce them are not legally liable, nor are they required to perform all of the clinical trials that drugs do. In other words, you are at their mercy in terms of delivery on promise and are simply not protected by the laws of the land in much of any way, shape or form. That some of those companies may be doing it right is not the issue here, the point is: they don't have to, and that is a scary proposition. You are on your own whenever you take supplements that are not under the umbrella of the law.
> 
> Is there corruption in the major pharmaceutical industry? Sure. Is it replete with it? I don't think so because, at least in this country, we made and continue to make the laws that govern the industry. When bad things happen, drugs are pulled and responsible parties in willful negligence cases are hunted down. That's NOT going to happen with garlic or any garlic product, you can be sure.
> 
> If garlic is going to be promoted as a substance to enhance health or, more appropriately to this discussion, to rehab a sick individual, and has tangible consequences in overdose, then how on earth can it not be considered a "drug"? To continue even further with the debate, how could one possibly take that a step further and advocate a refined product and not consider that a drug even moreso? The only difference that I can see in the big picture is that with a true "drug", if things go real sour, you have the rights to compensation whereas with a "supplement", you don't. And once again, that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the actual product and its efficacy and sincerity, only its marketing and liability.
> 
> Methinks that at the core of the sideline debate going on here, there is something much deeper, some underlying philosophical difference in how the seeming two sides see things. I'd get the overall impression reading between the lines that on the one hand, you've got the The Children of The Light versus The Forces of Darkness. Take your pick on who's who.
> 
> *All I want to know from this thread and discussion is IF there is one lousy little problem with a substance given to sick pigeons and WHAT it is IF it exists, and HOW to manage it if it can be. I have outlined the most easily performed and reliable indicating test to that end, as I see it, and am collaborating with at least one vet for that purpose.*
> 
> So... what's the problem here?
> 
> Pidgey


I will watch and wait for your results, Pidgey...


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## Whitefeather

Well, as I see it, from the testimony given by our members, the consensus is that the positive out weighs the negative, big time, with regard to giving our pigeons garlic.  

Cindy


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## Pidgey

Well, Warren, let's just perform a little exercise in math to illustrate why I wouldn't even think garlic in water to be an issue... let's say you put 20 cloves in a gallon of water and that the average clove was about what I measured this morning--1,888 milligrams. For the sake of easy math, let's go ahead and round that up by buying fatter garlic and calling it 2,000 milligrams per clove. So, now we're at 2,000 milligrams or 2 full grams per clove @ 20 cloves for a grand total of 40 grams or 40,000 milligrams of garlic. Now, if a bird drinks 5% of its weight in water per day (minimum) then a 500 gram bird will drink 25 grams of water and end up with the possibility of consuming 264 milligrams of garlic which is about the "safe" dose as shown above. Now, factor in that when you throw the residue water out that you might be throwing away as much as 99.99% of the garlic solids that you put in to begin with and... well... it's rather less, now, isn't it? We might drop from 264 milligrams ingested down to .264 milligrams ingested.

That's why I wouldn't even worry about garlic in the water.

Garlic juice, now... don't know, haven't bought the stuff, didn't know the stuff existed, haven't looked the stuff up, was really hoping on getting through this one part first, actually, before going that far... getting the picture?

Pidgey


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## John_D

Well, I think I have contracted information overload 

What I've gleaned from this is that garlic may or may not have beneficial properties if given to pigeons but, whatever, it is unlikely to do them any harm if used sensibly - and I assume that the same applies to the various other "natural supplements".

I give my balcony pigeons a probiotic which consists of 50% Allicin, plus lactic acid bacteria, from time to time. Other times, I provide a multivitamin supplement in the water. Whether these are helpful or not I really have no way of knowing, but since the free-roaming pigeons are always likely to be at risk from disease I feel doing something is better than 'just hoping' they'll be OK. Really, with my flighty visitors, the only way I can tell a needy pigeon is if, unlike the rest, it cannot fly off when I open the door (like the two PMV cases and the injured or just tuckered out racers I've taken in over the past year or so). 

To be honest, I find the whole 'natural supplements' thing pretty confusing! Take someone, for instance, who has a loft full of pigeons that just don't get sick, but who doesn't give them any additives - then take someone who also has a bunch of fine, healthy birds but who has a carefully thought out schedule of supplements. What can one conclude from that?

I guess the bottom line is that the individual either sees these things as a valuable addition to a pigeon's diet or not, and acts accordingly?

John


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## Whitefeather

John_D said:


> Well, I think I have contracted information overload
> 
> John


  

Cindy


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## feralpigeon

*From this link, an interesting article by Gordon Chalmers entitled:

"Garlic Some Facts For The Fancier" Part I*

http://www.kjsgroup.com/rprs/aspx/docview.aspx?/rprs/itlasp/June98/garlic.asp

Garlic
Some Facts For The Fancier

Gordon A. Chalmers, DVM
2508-11th Avenue North
Lethbridge, Alberta Canada T1H 1N4



Garlic, whose scientific name is Allium sativum, is a common plant, used worldwide for food. Since ancient times, garlic has been used for a variety of human ailments and problems, and even magical properties to ward of evil spirits have been attributed to garlic. In fact, it was once considered to be absolutely essential in warding off vampires. In more modern times, the use of garlic has been a topic of research, especially in human medicine. Garlic has been reported to have insecticidal, antibacterial, antifungal, and anti-tumor properties, as well as those of lowering blood sugar and fat levels, and reducing the dangerous plagues that bring about the plugging of blood vessels that lead to heart attacks and strokes in humans. It seems that popular interest is greatest in Germany where garlic preparations for humans account for the largest sales of all over-the-counter drugs. How garlic affects racing pigeons is speculative, but here are some general facts gleaned about this plant from a few medical and nutritional publications.

The principal, active agent of garlic is allicin, a sulfur-containing compound, which, with its breakdown products, produces the characteristic odor. The odor is related to the presence of sulfur. When the cloves are crushed, allicin is formed by the action of enzymes on a precursor chemical known as alliin. Other biologically active compounds related to allicin, such as ajoene may be extracted from garlic as well. The positive effects of fresh cloves of garlic seem fairly certain, whereas information for modern commercial preparations in general is not very convincing. One reason for the difficulty of showing the effectiveness of garlic is that many active chemical compounds in the cloves may be lost during processing. For example, carefully dried sliced cloves retain their potency, but extracts or oils prepared by steam distillation or organic solvents may have little activity. Cold-aged extracts have a reduced odor and may retain more of the activity of garlic. Allicin is known to break down during steam distillation for the production of the volatile oils used in many garlic preparations. As well, the alliin content of natural garlic can vary 10 fold. There is also confusion about the issue of "odorless" garlic preparations. Some of them have no aroma, but neither do they contain any active ingredient. Some active preparations may not have an odor, but if allicin is released when the product is eaten, there is a very good chance that there will be a detectable aroma—and it is the aroma that is one of the problems. Potency of garlic appears to depend on pungency,-- that is odor. Once garlic is dried into odor-free powders or pills, it loses some of the properties that may make it useful in health!

Distilling all of the information about garlic to a few simple statements is very difficult to do. However, it seems that, whatever the basis for its use, fresh cloves are the superior source for the important ingredients of garlic. Other commercial preparations such as powders or oils may or may not be useful, since the processing procedures may dilute or eliminate the effective compounds. If you have a choice then—and most of us do—buy cloves of garlic from your grocery store and prepare fresh solutions as you need them. Given the "touchy" nature of the important, active compounds in garlic, it seems likely that heating or boiling crushed cloves above 60 C ( remember water boils at 100 C ), may be enough to cause a major loss of these key substances. On the basis of this information, it is logical that home preparations of solutions of garlic should not be heated, in order to retain the important compounds in the solution. Be aware that allicin is readily converted to a more volatile compound called diallyl disulfide—which means that its effects can be transient.

Allicin is known to have antibacterial properties and has been said to be effective in concentrations as low as 1:125,000 ( that is, one part allicin to 125,000 parts water). When compared with penicillin, allicin is said to have an activity that is about 1% of the activity of penicillin. Garlic inhibits the growth of, or kill, about two dozen kinds of bacteria (including Staphylococcus and Salmonella spp.), and at least 60 types of fungi and yeasts. Allicin appears to be the major chemical responsible for this effect. So if the aroma is destroyed by cooking or processing, and allicin is associated with the odor, garlic may lose its ability to fight bacteria, mold and yeasts. In one recent study, researchers looked at the ability of garlic to kill the organism causing tuberculosis. They added an allicin-rich garlic extract to 30 strains of tuberculosis-causing bacteria growing in test tubes. A month later, the garlic had done critical damage to all 30 cultures.

The trace minerals selenium and germanium are two constituents of Japanese garlic, and these minerals may have some effect by their activity firstly, as antioxidants, that is, substances that protect cells and tissues from the damaging effects of peroxides in the body. Secondly they are important in the normal development of the immune system, and thirdly, they may have good activity as anti-cancer agents. Selenium itself has been shown to have a broad spectrum of anti-cancer activity in rats, for example.

On the other side of the coin, many cases of allergic reactions to garlic are known to occur in humans. Reactions such as dermatitis ( inflammation of the skin) and asthma are reported. One investigator found that the maximum tolerable dose of fresh aqueous extract ( i.e extracted into a water-based solution) in humans to be 25 cc (slightly under one ounce). Amounts greater than this caused severe burning sensations in the esophagus (gullet) and stomach, as well as vomiting. Some compounds extracted from garlic are similarly irritating to tissues in the mouth of humans.

A possible benefit of garlic or its compounds may be its ability to increase mechanisms for eliminating substances such as cancer-producing agents. In some studies, garlic has been shown to have a stimulating effect on certain enzymes that are known to be effective in removing toxic (poisonous) substances from the body. These substances can damage body organs, and even lead to cancerous changes, so garlic may well provide some measure of protection. In a laboratory study for example, mice were fed diallyl sulfide obtained from garlic, prior to being exposed to a cancer causing chemical. Mice fed the garlic derived compound had 74% fewer cancers of the colon (large intestine) than those that did not receive the garlic compound. It has also been shown in animals that the sulfide compounds of garlic can inhibit the development of cancer of the lung, large intestine, and esophagus. Unfortunately, there is no solid evidence that garlic can protect humans from cancer. This may be because it doesn’t protect, or because few good studies have been done in humans.

The question about whether garlic is good for human hearts can’t be answered yet. It is simply too early to tell. However, preliminary studies in humans and animals suggest that garlic may lower levels of artery-clogging fats such as LDL (bad) cholesterol, and raise levels of HDL (good) cholesterol. The catch is that the amounts used were equivalent to 14 to 230 clovers per day for a human! Obviously it would be very difficult to stand too close to such a person! There may be other positive effects for blood vessels. Garlic appears to increase the time it takes blood to clot, and may help to dissolve clots that have already occurred. Obviously one bad effect would be the failure to allow the blood to clot in individuals also on aspirins which are used for the same purpose—in other words, bleeding could occur when the two are used together. Much, much more work has to be done to evaluate the effects of garlic on human and animal health.



.


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## feralpigeon

*And Part II of the Same Article:*

http://www.kjsgroup.com/rprs/aspx/docview.aspx?/rprs/itlasp/July98/garlic.asp

Garlic
Some Facts For The Fancier
Part 2

Gordon A. Chalmers, DVM
2508-11th Avenue North
Lethbridge, Alberta Canada T1H 1N4



Now what about the use of garlic in racing pigeons? It is a popular, widely used product, but solid, scientific information on its effects in pigeons seems to be scarce. Everything from cloves of garlic to powders, pills and oils are available in health food stores, grocery stores and by companies selling products for pigeons. Are there any real benefits, or are the "benefits" in the eye of the beholder, i.e. the fancier who uses garlic products? Little scientific information for racing pigeons seems to be readily available, but it should be possible to extrapolate information from work done in humans and laboratory animals to pigeons.

Firstly and foremostly, logic based on a number of studies, says that the best source o the good effects of garlic is fresh cloves of garlic. Manufacturing procedures in the preparation of garlic powders, liquids and oils can vary considerable, and since important, active compounds in garlic can be lost very easily when garlic is processed to produce these liquids and powders, ect,. it seems best to avoid these products as they may contain few, if any, of the useful compounds in garlic. Further, it is best to crush cloves of garlic and add them directly to drinking water for pigeons, rather than heating or boiling them, to avoid losing a number of key chemicals in the cloves. Remember that heating garlic cloves above 60 can cause the loss of odour and medicinal properties.

Secondly, garlic may provide a temporary antibiotic effect on disease-producing bacteria, fungi and yeasts, both in the digestive tract and body tissues, by reducing their numbers during the period that it is in the drinking water. Thirdly, the trace minerals selenium and germanium present in garlic may give a boost to the immune system of pigeons, to increase their ability to fight disease-producing organisms of many kinds. IN domestic livestock, selenium is known to be important in the normal development of the immune system while the animal is growing on the uterus. A deficiency of selenium and Vitamin E has a definite adverse effect, because in such deficiencies, the development of immune system is retarded. As a result, the newborn animal or bird may be completely or severely restricted from protecting itself against invading organisms of all kinds.

Fourthly, although dissolving blood clots (the cause of heart attacks and strokes in humans) or preventing their formation in the arteries of humans is important in human medicine, it is known that racing pigeons are highly resistant to the buildup of fatty substances in their arteries. In human, these fatty substances may clog blood vessels or they may induce the formation of a clot at the point where the vessel is narrowed by the fatty deposits, and result in a heart attack or stroke. In contrast to racing pigeons, some meat- producing breeds of pigeons are very susceptible to a buildup of fatty substances in their vessels. So garlic might be of benefit to meat varieties of pigeons, but as racing pigeons are highly resistant to this type of buildup, the benefit might not be so great in the blood vessels of racing pigeons.

Fifthly, garlic as a de-toxifying agent could have a role as a "blood purifier" or a "tissue purifier," so to speak—whatever these phrases may mean, since they can and do cloak a great deal of the ignorance we all share on this subject. Both are meaningless expressions that really don’t explain anything, but they are used commonly in the mystique of pigeon racing! That aside, there are indications that chemical compounds in garlic may assist the body to de-toxify, neutralize or eliminate noxious substances. In pigeons, the use of garlic after a race may assist the so-called "depurative" diets—whatever that might mean—in restoring a bird to normal racing condition. Whether lactic acidosis is a real problem in returned racers is still debatable, in my opinion. Because, fat is unquestionably the major fuel for racing, and because the burning of fat for energy by racing birds is an aerobic process in the body, lactic acid—which results when glycogen is used as fuel in an anaerobic process—should not be produced, at least in any great amount. Braking and landing at the end of a race are very likely anaerobic processes, but the amount of lactic acid produced from such rapidly occurring events should be miniscule. In theory, it could be shown that birds actually sprint the last few miles of a race, much as a human marathon runner might sprint the last 100 yards or so, then there could be a good basis for believing that lactic aced—one of the so-called "impurities" in the blood—is produced, and that it needs to be eliminated. Lactic acid is known to be produced in human distance runners who sprint the last leg of a race. However, in most cases, usually a 20 minute "cool-down" walk will effectively "burn off" or eliminate the lactic acid from the system. It is known that pigeons that are not exercised reasonably soon after a long grueling race may develop marked swelling of the breast muscles that become hard and board-like. The birds become "tied up" and have difficulty flying from the floor to the lowest perches or nest boxes. Given this knowledge, it is possible, and indeed likely, that lactic acidosis is involved in such situations and that early workouts after a race would eliminate this problem. It is also possible that the use of crushed garlic cloves in drinking water at this time might add some extra benefit in allowing the liver and other organs to metabolize lactic acid and other compounds, and to help restore the birds to normal racing condition. Dosages of garlic for pigeons are difficult to come by, particularly since there is such variability in the amount of the key chemical alliin, which is converted to the active compound allicin, in garlic cloves.

Garlic in racing pigeons remains quite an enigma, and as fanciers, we use it without really knowing why, but our ignorance is shared by many people, including the human and veterinary medical communities, who have only tantalizing bits of information to suggest that there may be a number of positive effects from the use of garlic. Certainly, as indicated earlier in this article studies in laboratory animals and humans suggest a number of desirable effects from the use of garlic. Whether these effects apply directly to racing pigeons is just not known at this time. However, present evidence from human and laboratory animal work, and the empirical experience of many fanciers, suggest that, when used judiciously, crushed cloves of garlic, used in drinking water, may be a highly useful product in the loft throughout the year, but especially during rearing and the racing season. At present, garlic-based oils, powders and pills are likely much less useful. Possibly newer developments in extracting the active principles of garlic may get around the present problems associated with current methods. Until these problems are solved, fresh cloves of garlic from the grocery store are still the best source of the medicinal properties of garlic. I hope that this sketchy outline of the potential value of garlic, and some of its risks, may stimulate more controlled research on its value (or lack of) in racing pigeons. There is much to learn! This article merely scratches the surface.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Hey Feral,

I just knew that sooner or later science would confirm what the old time fanciers knew fifty years ago, that fresh garlic cloves in the water was good for you.


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## Skyeking

Hi fp,

Thank you for sharing that.

I still believe that garlic caps and/or Allicidin are more effective then garlic clove in the water.

First of all, it is only as effective as the quality of the product, and the new stabilized Allicidin does have the potency, because of the way it is made and processed.

Second, it is more concentrated then the clove in the water, so it works more effectively.

Third, the average common kitchen variety of garlic is not the same as the European one used.

Fourth, when I pop a garlic cap down my birds throat I have control over how much the bird is getting, when it is out in the water, they can decide how much or how little they actually will drink, and they do refuse to drink it.


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## feralpigeon

Trees Gray said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> Thank you for sharing that.
> 
> I still believe that garlic caps and/or Allicidin are more effective then garlic clove in the water.
> 
> First of all, it is only as effective as the quality of the product, and the new stabilized Allicidin does have the potency, because of the way it is made and processed.
> 
> Second, it is more concentrated then the clove in the water, so it works more effectively.
> 
> Third, the average common kitchen variety of garlic is not the same as the European one used.
> 
> Fourth, when I pop a garlic cap down my birds throat I have control over how much the bird is getting, when it is out in the water, they can decide how much or how little they actually will drink, and they do refuse to drink it.




Treesa, I tend to agree w/you, however, for those folks who don't have 
access through the internet or local health food stores to the NOW brand 
or other equal quality control oriented brands, the clove in water method 
would still be available/usable according to Chalmers. 

I worked w/the sister of the man who started/owned Whole Foods in this area and can say that this Health Food Store is particularly conscientious regarding products offered to the public. They pulled Ephedrin products long before it became an issue in the main stream reporting circuit and yet, they still offer the range of Now supplements including Garlic. NOW is a good company as well as other companies offering a product they believe in such
as Bragg's Vinegar. They are not all profit motivated and some actually would
like to 'help' in addition to working for a living.  

fp


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## Skyeking

Also, some of your best products can't be found in health food stores, and have to be ordered by mail, unless you live in Downey or Round Rock Texas.

I love the Whole Foods store, I sure wish we had them locally...here. We live in a Third World when it comes to health food stores, we have the run of the mill chain stores, like Wild Oats, but none of the Mother's Kitchen or Trader Joe's and of course, Whole Foods. you have to go to Orlando, Winterpark, or Miami...but then I can use it as an excuse to visit Reti. LOL

I was just too spoiled in California, darn...


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## feralpigeon

Trees Gray said:


> Also, some of your best products can't be found in health food stores, and have to be ordered by mail, unless you live in Downey or Round Rock Texas.
> 
> I love the Whole Foods store, I sure wish we had them locally...here. We live in a Third World when it comes to health food stores, we have the run of the mill chain stores, like Wild Oats, but none of the Mother's Kitchen or Trader Joe's and of course, Whole Foods. you have to go to Orlando, Winterpark, or Miami...but then I can use it as an excuse to visit Reti. LOL
> 
> I was just too spoiled in California, darn...



Oh, the spoiling wrotten tactics of California health food stores, I just hate
it  Anyway, I think that health food stores in general have enhanced
the quality of life for humans and animals in general accross the country in major metropolis areas and that we as a group can rest assured that in most
instances the interest of the end consumer is in fact being taken into account.

fp


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## Skyeking

feralpigeon said:


> Oh, the spoiling wrotten tactics of California health food stores, I just hate
> it  Anyway, I think that health food stores in general have enhanced
> the quality of life for humans and animals in general accross the country in major metropolis areas and that we as a group can rest assured that in most
> instances the interest of the end consumer is in fact being taken into account.
> 
> fp


Yep, it is definitely a BIG plus. It is great to see people waking up everywhere and realizing they can actually take charge of their health, change the course of their future..... and as consumers we have that power to get what we want, only in America.


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