# Moody not eating?



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Well, I don't know, but Moody doesn't seem to be eating much, if any at all. She occasionally goes and takes a chomp of her corn, but she's really not interested in it. She's too busy preening, playing in water, chewing, playing, etc. She doesn't seem any different behavior wise. She's still on the metronidazole, 1/2 pill twice daily. Her poops smell less, but because of her incessant water consumption, are very messy and watery. After a bath, her feathers are looking to be in better quality, but not great of course.

Her behavior is normal, but she has little appetite.
Can metronidazole do this? Should I be concerned?

Weighed her and she has lost maybe less than a pound, but it varies day from day.


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Vasp said:


> Weighed her and she has lost maybe less than a pound, but it varies day from day.


Pigeons don't even usually weigh a pound! I'll bet the farm you are weighing him on the human scale with you! Your body weight varies that much, but not a pigeon!


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Matt D. said:


> Pigeons don't even usually weigh a pound! I'll bet the farm you are weighing him on the human scale with you! Your body weight varies that much, but not a pigeon!


Matt,
She's talking about a goose not a pigeon.
It's not good that she is loosing weight.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Matt D. said:


> Pigeons don't even usually weigh a pound! I'll bet the farm you are weighing him on the human scale with you! Your body weight varies that much, but not a pigeon!


Moody's a goose, you silly goose! 

Pidgey


----------



## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Oh, NOW IM THE STUPID ONE!!! But that is how it always ends up...


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Haha! No, Moody is not a pigeon.

She really goes nuts over her favourite foods, still, like her peas, corn, beans, apples, etc... She eats her normal food but seems a bit bored with it. Otherwise, she's just the same as usual. I don't know if she's lost much weight, because every day she's a few grams or so less, you know? Instead of being 14.6 pounds one day, she might be 13.9 the next or 15.2 the next, depending on how much she's been eating. But I'll monitor her to make sure she does not lose any more weight, or stops eating entirely, or if her behaviors becomes bad.


A friend of mine brought up that she may have genetic issues, as she came from a factory farm of more than 4,000 ducks and 4,000 geese.

When she was a baby, she would get "popping" sounds in her intestines after eating grass--gas. She couldn't digest it properly. She may have been born with incorrect intestinal enzymes. We're going to make little balls out of kaytee hand feeding formula and try to give them to her, to see if we can get any good vitamins and probiotics into her that way.

Any suggestions?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Vasp,

I can't offer any suggestions as to what to feed her, but I'm thinking the metronidazole could be affecting her appetite and if she has issues with her intestines, her gut flora may be out of balance too.


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Vasp,

I'm sorry things are still difficult with Moody. Have you thought about trying to put her on Mazuri Waterfowl Maintenance food? I don't know why I didn't think to suggest this before. If you could get her going on a complete and high quality product like Mazuri, that just might be the solution. It is hard to find Mazuri in stores here, and it usually has to be a special order. Looks like you can buy it on-line, however: http://mazuri.com

Terry


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Vasp,
> 
> I can't offer any suggestions as to what to feed her, but I'm thinking the metronidazole could be affecting her appetite and if she has issues with her intestines, her gut flora may be out of balance too.


I'm thinking the same thing.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

TAWhatley said:


> Hi Vasp,
> 
> I'm sorry things are still difficult with Moody. Have you thought about trying to put her on Mazuri Waterfowl Maintenance food? I don't know why I didn't think to suggest this before. If you could get her going on a complete and high quality product like Mazuri, that just might be the solution. It is hard to find Mazuri in stores here, and it usually has to be a special order. Looks like you can buy it on-line, however: http://mazuri.com
> 
> Terry


Great idea Terry.


----------



## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

No suggestions on food.....but I am sending Moody well-wishes and a big hug.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Thanks, Terry. We've tried our best with Moody. It seems her problem is a difficult one.

I know it may seem like I'm not doing enough with Moody... To be honest, I have spent all of my money on her vet visits, new food, new medicines... Many people on other forums I'm at have decided to kick me out because they think I'm not doing anything for her. My funds are short and Moody's problem is difficult. If I had the money, right now I would drive her up to Saskatoon to have a full analysis done, please don't doubt that.

When I DO have the money, I will drive her there.
We actually ordered 2 bags of Mazuri waterfowl maintenance diet, for about 150 dollars by truck, but... I don't think they ever came, or at least, the fellow who ordered them never got back to us.

Thanks for all your help... I really don't think the metronidazole is doing much.

If you want, I'll stop posting. I don't want to clog up anyone else's forums...


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't think anybody on this forum is thinking that you don't/didn't do enough for Moody. Sometimes even vets can't figure out some of the "mystery" illnesses. Unless you have thousands of dollars to run every possible test it can happen never to have a diagnosis.

Have you treated her for fungal infection? 
And, btw, antibiotics can cause a decrease in appetite, maybe that's it.
You might also be right about an inborn enzyme deficiency. Those are hard to diagnose even more so in animals.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Vasp,

You have certainly gone above and beyond in trying to help Moody. Please don't think anyone here thinks/feels otherwise. Please feel free to post all you like about Moody .. who knows .. someone may see something that we've all missed.

Terry


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh, thank you, Terry and Reti. I'm so happy to be a part of this forum. I've learned so much here, and so many different opinions are great to have. There are so many things to treat for, and I don't know if I have the money to do every test under the sun (which may not reveal anything as it is). Moody is not in terrible condition or anything of that sort. She has loose poop, somewhat shabby feathers, but otherwise, is quite a pretty goose, happy to enjoy her favourite foods and play. She has never been miserable, not once. If her quality of life was miserable, I would be hectically trying to improve it.

We have not treated for a fungal infection, but tomorrow I will call our vet (she's quite mediocre for a vet, but she does give prescriptions and does fecals, so that's about all we can hope for at this time) and ask for some Nystatin. The vet will be understanding, I'm sure, and Nystatin is said to be quite gentle. If the Nystatin does not work, we will have to try some antibiotics... My worry is that if she already has a low count of good bacteria in her system, it will deplete them further and cause problems. We really don't have good probiotics around here.

I have done a lot to her diet, yet with no difference. It must be an underlying problem and I think it may very well be an enzyme deficiency of sorts. I'm quite unfortunate to have these problems as geese are very hardy, generally very healthy animals. She must be one in a thousand to have so many problems, just from birth.

I'll ask for some Nystatin, but do you think Kaytee, rolled into little balls after being warmed up to the proper temperature to help activate the enzymes, would work at all? The only alternative would be human probiotics (we have acidophilus and bifidum probiotics in our fridge) or ordering from online, but that can only be done when I'm payed at the end of the month.

Thanks!


----------



## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can try the Kaytee and the human probiotics. Better than nothing and it won't hurt her. Try them first separately so you have an idea which if any works.
Has your vet tested her liver enzymes?

Reti


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

No... Our vet has not tested her liver enzymes. I don't know if she has the capability or experience/knowledge to do so either. How are those tests done? Anyway, I think PetSmart has some supplements that involve probiotics, I was looking on their website. I'll see if I can get some today.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I think Moody is doing better.  It's hard to tell because it changes from day to day, but she's now getting vitamins and probiotics in her veggies every day. Her poops have very little smell after the last course of Metronidazole and they seem to have quite a lot more form, though in the diaper they sort of get squished a bit... When she was in the bath preening earlier, the poops looked so normal!

I don't know but she seems to be doing a lot better...


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Great news, Vasp! I hope things continue on the upswing for you and Moody.

Terry


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, let's hope, let's hope, let's hope!

Pidgey


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I've also noticed that she's been eating more food and drinking less water. She used to be insane with that water, standing next to it nearly all the time, but now she's not as obsessed with it.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's great!


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah. Well, I just changed her again and it seems her poop is back to being rather liquidy and somewhat smelly. It's not as bad as I remember it being before her last course on Metronidazole though.

Apparently shipping her to a great waterfowl rehabber in Carolina is a possibility. It would cost quite a bit but I think everyone at a duck rescue site would help with that. Parting with her is a heart-wrenching idea. But her aggression is also becoming a factor. If she could go to a rehabber I think she would be better off


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Vasp said:


> Ah. Well, I just changed her again and it seems her poop is back to being rather liquidy and somewhat smelly. It's not as bad as I remember it being before her last course on Metronidazole though.
> 
> Apparently shipping her to a great waterfowl rehabber in Carolina is a possibility. It would cost quite a bit but I think everyone at a duck rescue site would help with that. Parting with her is a heart-wrenching idea. But her aggression is also becoming a factor. If she could go to a rehabber I think she would be better off


Of course it's painful to think of parting with her.... she's your baby and you have been so frantic over her condition.You have been so committed to her well being and I greatly admire that. Sounds like it might be the best for her though. I hope it works out for the best for each of you.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree, Charis. I just hope she can be in a good situation. I'm certain that her problem can be attributed to some vitamin deficiencies. The more I read about nutrients that are necessary in humans, mammals and especially other birds, the more I see that her problems, both physical and behavioral, can likely be attributed to deficiencies. It makes me feel absolutely terrible that I have been the cause of her problems, but I think I have.

This is a really good article to read. I could make many connections to Moody's issues, both behavioral and physical, to this:

Grey Matters

It's about African Grey parrots, who are probably the most sensitive, empathetic and problematic birds of the parrot species. This article outlines the behavioral and physical problems, and explains how they may be due to vitamin deficiencies.

I think a lot of this information can be attributed to many birds and their behavioral problems, and is interesting to consider in other animals and humans as well. Moody exhibits quite a lot of phobic, almost obsessive-compulsive behaviors, not to mention aggressive tendencies. From reading this amazing article, I think I have a few ideas of what many be causing these phobic behaviors.

The importance of omega-3 fatty acids was discussed quite a lot in this article. In the wild, geese live primarily off of plants, mainly tender grasses and tender greens. As many dark green plants and grasses contain high amounts of omega-3 fatty acids and other important fatty acids, I've come to the conclusion that due to the fact that Moody is on a pelleted diet and has been all her life (like many domestic ducks and geese and other birds), she is deficient in these important fatty acids.

Just as a deficiency of fatty acids in African Greys may cause feather picking and dry skin, I think the deficiency of fatty acids in Moody's diet is causing her bad feather quality and feather loss, as well as the fact that she overpreens quite a bit and sheds many skin cells. She's obviously over-molting and has dry, irritated skin. Her oil gland, as well, does not seem to be working properly. This can likely be attributed to lack of fatty acids, and no doubt lack of bathing water. Now she gets a bath every day and I've found the sore on her vent is not bleeding anymore, even when she preens.

Thanks to this article, I'm going to make sure that Moody gets more fatty acids in her diet, full-spectrum lighting if she can't be outside, and more vitamin A.

Her digestive problems, I would bet, are due to lack of essential probiotics, and the mere fact that pelleted diets like the layer ration or pullet grower often contain bi-products of the meat of other birds, which is not only disgusting but completely unnatural for animals, especially those that are herbivorous like geese. Thankfully I have a good quality avian supplement that contains avian-specific probiotics that she's getting over her moist vegetables every day. I'm cutting her off the layer ration, offering less rolled corn, and I'm going to look into a parrot pellet for her. Unfortunately most of them are artificially colored, but no matter, they will be better for her as they actually contain vitamins.

She will still need most of her diet to consist of fresh, dark leafy green vegetables, grasses, and some good yellow and orange vegetables, seeds (as they eat seeds in the wild), and grains. I've seen slow improvement with her but she still has many problems. As her problems are chronic my best bet is that they're vitamin related.


I have done so much wrong. I don't know how I'll forgive myself, or how Moody will ever forgive me. Living in such a frigid climate and having very little information on the health care of these birds is especially problematic. Now she's getting garlic soaked in her water weekly, organic ACV in her water weekly, vegetables every day (trying to get her into leafy greens, though she's stubborn), no more poultry pellets, but organic grains from the health food store, very little fruit, and only organic apple once or twice a week, plus her vitamin/probiotic supplement.

I hope we can get her to a good rehabber. I love her very much, I feel like she completes my life. I don't think I will ever be able to live my life without birds! There is nothing as satisfying as a goosey hug, or when they tuck their heads under your chin. Their amazingly emotional eyes, their fluffy necks, their silly antics and clumsiness, their forgiving nature and their amazing ability to communicate makes them such extraordinary companions. I just must educate myself immensely before ever committing to a bird like this, that depends so immensely on fresh greens and proper socialization.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm glad you found the article. It sounds like it made everything click for you.
I know how much you love Moody and I have never doubted it for one second. It's a lesson for all of us, to research thoroughly before actively adding another creature to our life because it is a commitment that should never be taken lightly. I don't think you have taken it lightly. 
A rescue is a different situation entirely and often we must gather information in a hurry.


----------



## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I spent years looking over facts for proper care for ducks and geese. The problem is that most ducks and geese get access to fresh vegetables/grass and sunlight every day because they're commonly kept in good, warmer climates where winter is short or nonexistent. When they get access to their natural foods and enough clean water, they need very little care. When they're kept inside most of the time because it's too cold for them to go outside, they probably need full spectrum lighting, a good vitamin and probiotic supplement and good healthy vegetables, seeds and grains. They need daily baths and time to preen. Also, genetics play a part... Moody is from a factory farm and has a nasty temperament likely because of their breeding lines.

My family thinks sending her to a waterfowl rehabber in Carolina would be great. We'd even be willing to drive down there with her if it would make it more comfortable for her, this summer though.

Also, the next bird I get, will probably be a parrot. They require a lot of care but there is so much more support on their health. Also they are bred for personality, not food. 

You wonderful folks have done so much for me! One day, as an ornithologist or avian vet, I'll look back and think of how much I learned from everyone on pigeon-talk.


----------

