# craining and shaking neck like trying to clear blockage



## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

I am wondering if anybody has seen this syptom and what might cause it. Pigeon stretches neck way out and shakes neck like when feeding a baby. Pigeon appears to be trying to clear a blockage but nothing comes out. Crop is empty.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You mean like in this video:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2aD-Bw7ZdM&t=1m6s 


(the sequence starting at minute 1 and 6 seconds)


That is (trying to) vomiting. Is a problem with the crop.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Could be crop issue/blockage, or canker or more. We need more symptoms, like is the bird eating and pooping well? *


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Yes thats the movement. Do you have more information or links? Is this just a vomit? I have seen pigeons throwup. The action was a bit different. the birds I have seen do this had empty croos and no vomit came out. I wonder if there could be swelling or blockage just beyond the crop. I think the next part of the digestive tract called the proventriculus.
See:
http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonBasicNeeds.asp


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks Skyeking and Spirit Wings, I treated first for canker and coccidiosis with one tab of veta farm. Trizole. The pigeon still seemed blocked so I gave metranidazole. Then I observed watery dark green droppings so I surmised that it could be ecoli or paratyphoidand I gave Baytril. Since the pigeon had the meds I mentioned I think the next step is amoxicillian. I also wonder if the the pigeon may have ingested small strings from the Baden Superflyer seed bag.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

You didn't answer if he eats and how much. Does his mouth smells like fermented fruits or some sour thing? Then there is fermented food on the bottom of the crop and you should not feed him until the crop empties. Is his tongue green on the tip? 


My last sick pigeon died after similar symptoms, liquid dark green droppings, "empty" vomiting. Nothing seemed to help, neither metronidazole, coccidia medicine or antibiotics. 


I came to the conclusion that was something fungal blocking the digestive tract, leaving only water to pass. His tonque had a green tip, which is characteristic for Aspergillus and in mouth were some sort of gray deposits which might have been Candida so I think was having both Aspergillus and Candida. 


Other possibility: poisoning with heavy metals (from pic seems you keep him in a cage and he could have bit the bars).





As a side note: from what I've read, in human as well animal medicine, fungi are best threated with Pau D'Arco, a food supplement with an extract from an Amazonian tree, though the plant in its initial state is more effective than the extract. Pau D'Arco is at least as good as conventional antifungal medication, but not toxic. 

More info



.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for sharing Andre! He is out of his hospital cage flying about a little. He did eat on Sunday morning but it seems just a little bread Monday morning. And nothing after that. His crop has been completely empty. I left out many details because I am writing on a phone. I don't know much about fungus. I will have a look at my avian vet books. I did talk to my vet.
He has 30 years experience treating exclusively cage birds. I asked him if a bird passing water was a symptom of ecoli. He said there are many strains of ecoli some very virulent that could cause a bird to pass water. I asked him about treating with Amoxicillan if Baytril does not work and he said amoxicollian is no longer used by vets he said the new drug is called clavamox. I am observing my bird as I write. This morning I gave both Baytril and some amoxiillian. He seems a bit better. I think it is important for birds with possible blockage to exercise and fly if they can to help mechanically disloge blockage. I will see if I can include a picture from his hospial cage. He has a heat pad there is a white t-shirt on top.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

It also can be an object stuck in crop *or proventriculus or gissard) so a radiography would help. Try to feel through crop's skin if there is still food in it, especially in the area before the proventriculus, where you must feel a hole if the crop is empty. 

Some of my birds periodically have e-coli invasions (I know is e-coli because I tested 3 or four of them) that manifested by vomiting (or trying to), corn-yellow or green-yellow transparent liquid droppings. Usually I reduce them to normal with a single injection with Lincospectin.



*Is absolutely vital the bird to eat*, else will have a downfall and die in few days or even just a day (if it has some sickness).

Feed him some defrosted peas. If you see he vomits them, boil them and made them a paste and give with a syringe + tube. Honey is more nutritive (I kept a bird only with honey for a week and heard about a case of three weeks) but quite sure will cause Candida to overgrow, so better no. 

I would say to give him forcedly some grains too and see if he vomits them or they pass into body. If they pass into body, feed him only grains, as peas have very little solid substance (they are 80% water). Permanently smell his mouth and if you feel some sour / fermented smell, that mean is fermented food in crop and you have to massage the crop, trying to break the food in smaller parts to be digested.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for your very good ideas Andrei! Did you see the Colin Walker article on Canker. If not search Colin Walker Canker. I'm doing as he says rotating canker meds and giving drops of Baytril. i have a small braun Coffee Bean grinder. It cost $30 it can turn seeds to powder. i ground some raw peanut and added 4cc of water and a little exact baby food powder to thicken. I tube fed. I know he needs more food but no sence in trying to give more if this does unless he can digest and pass th 5cc. I like the idea of peas very much because they go down and stay down without chance of aspiration. 

I did see some canker way down there today.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I would say not follow some website advices / theories if you don't see them on other websites too and maybe not even then. On internet, false information spreads quite easily.


I tried too the grinded grains method and I don't think is very good, it leads to some sort of hard to digere paste inside the crop that may even be fatal.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for your ideas. I think it is water that is the critical thing. The exact baby food holds more water than anything.... Birds with blockage tend to go for peanuts because they are very easy to digest and they have a lot of energy. In my bean grider I only grid hulled sessamee, hulled sunflower and peanuts. Sometimes i grind calcium too...


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Sunflower, sessamee and peanut also have lots of oil to help with blockage.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the ikn8 I am wondering what meds or combination of meds works best. Here is what I have.
Medpet dimetridazole powder
Medpet Metronidazol 100 mg tabs
Medpet Ronsec Ronidazole Secranidazole combo tabs
Spartrix tabs from purchased in 2010

Tonight i pondered which med to give. I thought maybe the dimetridazole is best since it is a fine solution that can get through. The Ronsec pill might not disolve and disperse as well.
I have read many people recomend rotating canker meds i am giving the properly diluted dimetridazole in water via tube feeding a little at a time to simulate the amount pigeons drink.
The first day he got the Trizole, 2nd day metronidazole, then he got spartrix tonight 8ml of th diluted dimetridazole.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> superflyer, the flagyl or metro should be given for at least 7 days it really is not good to jump from one med to another without giving for a full course first.


If no amelioration appears in three days, it means is no canker and is useless to continue the metro treatment.


I would say: give metro for three days and if things don't start to improve, stop the metro course and give antibiotics for another three days. If neither after antibiotics things don't start to change, it means is neither canker or bacterial.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info. He has had baytril for more than three days and canker meds for more than three days. I am thinking of switching the antibiotics from baytril and amoxicillan to Trimdthoprim. I wondef if thats a good idea. Any thouts on the switch? He passed the 12 ml of dimetrizole water I gave.
I think if i give the Trimethoprim I will have to stop the canker meds so it might be better to stick with baytril, amoxicillian and metronidazol. If it is a virus than I can do nothing so it seems best to continue since it could be internal canker complicated with resistant bacteria like ecoli.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info. He has had baytril for more than three days and canker meds for more than three days. I am thinking of switching the antibiotics from baytril and amoxicillan to Trimdthoprim. I wondef if thats a good idea. Any thouts on the switch? He passed the 12 ml of dimetrizole water I gave.
I think if i give the Trimethoprim I will have to stop the canker meds so it might be better to stick with baytril, amoxicillian and metronidazol. If it is a virus than I can do nothing so it seems best to continue since it could be internal canker complicated with resistant bacteria like ecoli.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

His main syptom is craining the neck way far out then shaking quite a bit very forcefully
trying to vomit. He has passed water so he cannot be tottally blocked. He continues not eating.
I think it may be internal canker as described by Dr. Colin Walker. The green poop could have been due to the canker . I reported earlier that I thought I saw a whitish spot way down his throat by I have not seen anything like that again and it may have just been saliva.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sounds like your bird has canker. The best way to treat is with a tablet that you give directly. I would go with the Metronidazole. Give one 100 mg tablet, then cut them in half and give the half tablet once a day for 7 to 10 days.Don't keep changing the med. In rotating meds, that means using a med for a full treatment. Then next time you treat for the same thing you can use the same drug. If later down the road, you need to treat for the same thing again, you can then change to another drug.
Metro usually works well, but if not, then you can add another drug to it.

It often takes longer then 3 days, and stopping and changing drugs just messes with his system. And you can't always see canker, but doesn't mean it isn't there. The green droppings are because he isn't eating. Don't stop the Metro. If in 5 to 7 days he isn't better, then continue with the Metro and then add Baytril for 10 days. But don't think you will have to if you will just give the Metro for the 7 to 10 days. Switching around every few days is not going to help anything.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> If no amelioration appears in three days, it means is no canker and is useless to continue the metro treatment.
> 
> 
> I would say: give metro for three days and if things don't start to improve, stop the metro course and give antibiotics for another three days. If neither after antibiotics things don't start to change, it means is neither canker or bacterial.


You really do need to research more before giving advice to others. Often it takes much longer before you see improvement. I have no idea where you get your 3 day idea. But it can take 2 weeks to cure a bird of canker. And the same goes for bacterial issues.By switching around on and off meds, you mess with his system, weaken the bird, and aren't curing anything. If you start a treatment, you finish it. 

This bird is showing classic signs of canker, and if you start with a drug, then stop after a few days, what you are doing is giving the trich a chance to become resistant to the drug and come back stronger. Then when you try treating it again, it doesn't respond to the drug. Same with antibiotics. Please stop advising people to keep changing treatments.

If you want to try and cover most things, then give a good canker drug, and a good wide spectrum antibiotic for the 10 days.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

superflyer said:


> His main syptom is craining the neck way far out then shaking quite a bit very forcefully
> trying to vomit. He has passed water so he cannot be tottally blocked. He continues not eating.


That shows that he feels something in his crop or neck that he wants to throw out. Might be a canker nodule but as well an object stuck in proventriculus. Have you tried to feel through the crop if he has some nodule on neck or in crop? Try to feel the hollow of the proventriculus in the lower part of the crop. If you don't feel the hollow, might be blocked with a nodule or solid object.


> I think it may be internal canker as described by Dr. Colin Walker.


Canker is of two kinds: 

-Dry Canker, which is under the form of yellow nodules growing in mouth, inside the neck or in crop and is manifested only at squakers
-Wet Canker or internal canker, in adult birds mostly.


You didn't mention if your bird is young or adult.

If is a nodule in crop is dry canker, not wet canker, I quess (hope I'm not wrong).



> The green poop could have been due to the canker .


Is the kind of green that appears in your photo? Or in the meanwhile it turned to a bright green, in which case it means your bird is starving and that is more dangerous than any parasite. You have to forcedly feed him with wnough quantity of food.



> I reported earlier that I thought I saw a whitish spot way down his throat by I have not seen anything like that again and it may have just been saliva.


That is possibly Candida, which is a white fungus (the scientifical name comes from a Latin word, candida meaning "white") and which may well explain his symptoms. Or again, it can be canker.





Jay3 said:


> This bird is showing classic signs of canker


Are you refering to the vomiting or perhaps to the aspect of dropping? Are you sure it can't be something else?

Vomiting can be caused by a lot of things. Today for example, two of my pigeons trying to voti, one because has an ever-reoccuring e-coli (the symptom, the green-yellowish droppings vanish after an Enrofloxacin tablet) and other because I gave a medicine for coccidia that caused nausea.



> If you want to try and cover most things, then give a good canker drug, and a good wide spectrum antibiotic for the 10 days.


Or better make some lab tests, if possible. I agree that in most cases is canker or bacteria, but yet can be Candida or stuck object.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

And one more thing about that website of Colin Walker: because he asserts at least one theory that is seriously wrong, I wouldn't give him credit for anything else. That wrong theory is the one that says "99% of crop blockage (sour crop) are caused by canker nodules". 

In fact, maybe not even 20% of crop blockages are caused by this but have other causes: bird eating too much, candida, object obstruction etc, as you can read on other vet websites, like these ones: 1 2 3 (though are not about pigeons particularly).

Every other webiste on internet that uses the "99%" thing is based on Walker's website.

You must be aware that much of the information on internet is false, as people (who put info on their websites, blogs etc) take quotes or ideas without checking the primary sources. This is one of the many helpful sites where internet hoaxes are debunked: http://urbanlegends.about.com/

But not only on internet can be found hoaxes. Many if not most newspapers publish articles without any decent verification, if is senzational enough and can sell. 

And even in the scientific world, many so-called scholars pay attention rather to the apparently sophisticated, neologysms-filled presentations and textx rather than the esence. Taking advantages of this, some people from academic fields have created some hoaxes, fake scientific texts that contained not any coherent idea but used a lot of scholarly terms and those meaningless texts were published without verification in academic journals. And other similar hoaxes and tests were made that shown how superficial scientists are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Fox_effect


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info! I think Walker probably did necropsies and saw the wet canker nodules. I'm sure he has done way more necropsies and treated way more pigeon than I have. Since the two major illnesses that cause both dropping malodies and vomiting are canker and ecoli I plan to keep treating for both and hopping for the best! Have you ever tried vibrating with a massager to mechanically disrupt the blockage?


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm sure other vets have done necropsies too, yet they don't share his opinion. In the particular case of your bird, I tend to think is canker because of the aspect of droppings in the photo but otherwise vomiting can be caused by lots of things, most frequent being Young Bird Sickness, Worm infestation, Field poisening, Candida infection, according to Chevita website.


E-coli is ameliorated only by Baytril, it became quite resistent to other drugs and in fact I think is useless to try to eradicate it, better focus on bird's immunity and overall wellness and threat only when it becomes more serious. E-coli is always present in pigeons, only its higher presence levels are dangerous.

I didn't try the vibrating thing and don't think is good, as it stress or may physically harm the bird.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

This bird knows me well. His wife had blockage a few years ago and I had a car seat massager on the bottom of the hospital cage. I think it might have helped. She recovered. Its difficult to do crop massage with pigeons.i just tried feeding some peas. I liquifued them in a high speed blender and added a touch of exact baby food to thicken. I gave only 5cc. If he tolerates and passes the mixture I will give more.fd


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

He vomited the liquified peas so I tubed in a thin peanut shake. Next time I try the liquified frozen peas I will skip the pinch of baby food.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Please don't use a vibrator on him. It's actually fairly easy to massage a crop, but be careful, as depending on what the blockage could be, if there were one, it could injure him if messaged. 
As far as canker causing most blockages, that has been my experience, and it is one of the most common illnesses of pigeons. So treating for it would be wise.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

superflyer said:


> He vomited the liquified peas so I tubed in a thin peanut shake. Next time I try the liquified frozen peas I will skip the pinch of baby food.


What you mean by liquified peas? I noticed that (at least some sort of) frozen peas can be made paste without being boiled, in the raw state. After being defrozen and peeled, I crush them with a spoon's back then I put the paste in a needleless syringe and make a test to see if all the content passes through syringe. Than I warm the content a little on a non-stick pan (must be at 102.2F for babies), put back in syringe and administer with a tube.


Another way of identifying canker, only if the bird is a squaker, is the miss of feathers around some parts if the beak.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Certain types of blenders can liquify fruits and vegtable. I have an inexpensive kitchen Ninja. The Vitamix is often used to make raw vegan soup. If this is not canker what could it be? I have found that crop massage on pigeons is difficult but I suppose it all depends on the particular pigeon and the shape and size of his neck, crop and bones. It is easy to aspirate a pigeon with crop massage. There are many types of massagers. I have a picture somewhere where my Tucu sat with here crop up against the vibrator. My little Marth a small Bantam used to sit with her full static crop up against a dish to put pressure on it. I massaged her crop a couple hours a day. Her neck was longer than a pigeons. She made her neck into an S shape to minimize things comming up while I massaged. She let me gently squeeze food in. Today my birds crop is empty and it has been all week.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

I think this morning. I will try the Trizole again as it was afective with other pigeons with almost the same syptoms. The Trizole has canket meds but also cocci med.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Meds with single drugs in them are more effective, as they contain more of the drug. You don't give any drug a chance to work. You can do more harm than good to him by keep switching around. His crop is empty because he is not eating. Stay with the Metro and stop changing around, and get some easily digestible food into him, or you will lose him. Baby food peas are good, or baby bird formula.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

superflyer said:


> Thanks for the info. Certain types of blenders can liquify fruits and vegtable. I have an inexpensive kitchen Ninja.


That would be useful for making carrot juice, but as is sweet and if your bird has Candida, it will grow explosively killing him. Liquified peas are useless, better give only water, is the same thing. Peas contain 80% water so if you remove their fiber with that blender, they become useless from nutritive pov.




> If this is not canker what could it be? I have found that crop massage on pigeons is difficult but I suppose it all depends on the particular pigeon and the shape and size of his neck, crop and bones.


Massaging is useful if is compacted food inside. By massage you break that food in smaller pieces, making it easy to be absorbed through proventriculus. So if what blocks the crop is a canker nodule, massaging is useless or dangerous.

But the crop blockage can have other causes:

-Candida membranes on the hollow of proventriculus or on the bottom of the crop - in this case massaging help, especially by trying to feel the hollow of the proventriculus with your finger.
-object stuck in crop or proventriculus. In that case, you stop any solid feeding and give some drops (not more!) of fine oil (olive or almond) or apple sauce for 3-4 times / day, hoping will make that object get dislocated.
-bird eating too much that lead to an overfilled crop that put pressure on proventriculus and stops the food pass into it.

Also, is possibly that not the crop but the gissard to be blocked, in which case you also use fine oil. 



> Today my birds crop is empty and it has been all week.


Try to give injectable Metronidazole, you can find it at human drugstores. Maybe the canker medicine you give is vomited and remains without effect. You have to do this very quikly.

Injectable Metronidazole is find at 5 gr / L concentration usually. Your bird should receive something like 30-40 mg / day, that will be ~ 7 ml. 

But read what is written on bottle, may be a different concentration.



You inject the liquid cutaneous in several places (as is too much to inject in only one place, because it dispalces the skin from the muscles):

-on the inside of both the wings, where you see some white skin without blood vessels. Make a bubble of liquid under that white skin. 
-under the sking of both thighs.



In the same time, consider is possible to be something else, not canker. Try to feel in all of crop's corner with your finger, maybe is some object. Massage with your finger the hollow of the proventriculus. If are Candida membranes, you may succeed in breaking them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AndreiS said:


> That would be useful for making carrot juice, but as is sweet and if your bird has Candida, it will grow explosively killing him. Liquified peas are useless, better give only water, is the same thing. Peas contain 80% water so if you remove their fiber with that blender, they become useless from nutritive pov.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not a good idea to advise giving meds with a needle. A bird could be injured, and it is so seldom needed. Tablets do fine. Work for most everyone.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Tjhanks much Andrei! I attened the 2009 NWRA conference and I took all the bird related classes. In the USA it would be hard to get that drug. But my vet coulf get it.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Jay3 said:


> Not a good idea to advise giving meds with a needle. A bird could be injured, and it is so seldom needed. Tablets do fine. Work for most everyone.


The bird vomits everything, even the liquids. So how would pass the medicine into body?



superflyer said:


> Tjhanks much Andrei! I attened the 2009 NWRA conference and I took all the bird related classes. In the USA it would be hard to get that drug. But my vet coulf get it.


He can do himself the first shots when you go to take the medicine, to avoid losing time.

Anyway, be careful that like most medicines, Metro is toxic, so administer it moderately. Even more, if the bird hasn't eaten for so long, is very weak and the dose must be drastically reduced. Here is a page with the side effects on humans:

http://www.rxlist.com/flagyl-injection-side-effects-drug-center.htm


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He is probably vomiting because he hasn't had any food in so long, and he probably has canker. The food could have been given too fast even. Who knows. Could be from the med. Metronidazole should be given after the bird is fed, and not on an empty stomach, which would make him more apt to vomit. By giving a couple of drops of Pepto Bismul 30 min before feeding or medicating may very well stop that vomiting.
It usually works. Reducing the medicine only helps the trich to become resistant to it.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for your ideas. Have you had good results with feeding peas to birds that vomit like they have blockage? It seems like the peas may cause more blockage. This evening I liquified some whole wheat bread and combined it with peanut powder, sesamee powder, and sunflower seed powder and a little exact baby food and some thin vegetable oil. I gave him oil several days ago with food. I don't think it is physical blockage of the gizzard because I don't think that would make him vomit. He is passing water and pea green excrement which I have been informed is destroyed liver cells. I wonder if pigeons ever get something like human flu.
Tonight he vomited up about 2ml of the 9ml of food I gave. I may feed more later or try a few peas. I have never had any sucess with frozen sweet peas but I will explore your pea method ..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That green is probably from starvation. Starvation poops are that green color. Baby food peas would be very gentle. I have used defrosted peas many times and they work great. Hav never caused a blockage. If they aren't going through, it's because there already is a blockage. When I have a bird that is vomiting, I would use the baby bird formula, or even human baby rice cereal (without the milk that they sometimes add to it) and baby food peas. The Pepto really does work well in controlling the vomiting. But as I already mentioned, Metro on an empty crop will often cause vomiting. And canker will cause vomiting. He needs a bit of food into him before the med. But 20-30 minutes before that, a couple of drops of pepto. 
Does he drink a lot of water?


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for sharing Jaye. He had access to many type of food and access to water but he has not eaten or drank that I can see for about five days. He is still able to fly but he is getting quite thin and weak. I have been tube feeding small amounts. Tonight I gave him more and the food I gave was probably a bit more than he could process so I am glad he vomited some of it up and I am double glad he did not aoirate on the vomit. I hope to feed some more baby foid a little later tonight. I am afraid of the peas. The baby food seems a safer choice. What kind of poop do you see after feeding the peas?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

After feeding peas or anything else, the poops will look a bit better and more formed, as you are getting food into him. Without the food, they will be that green color as in the pic, and not formed, and usually wet around it. But the drug needs time to work to make the droppings firm up good and look more normal. It can take a while. Much longer then 3 days. If he can only tolerate a lesser amount of food, than give that amount, just more often. But please do feed before you medicate, and I would pick up some Pepto. Good to have on hand. Tube it in slowly or it will come back up.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

superflyer said:


> This evening I liquified some whole wheat bread and combined it with peanut powder, sesamee powder, and sunflower seed powder and a little exact baby food and some thin vegetable oil.


Stop giving bread, even if is liquified, will compact inside the crop. Only healthy birds may be given bread, and only little. It has no nutritional value anyway.



> I have never had any sucess with frozen sweet peas but I will explore your pea method ..


One way to feed a pigeon with blocked crop is to give honey mixed with water 1/ 1, depending of bird's size between 5-10 ml (the combined fluids) 3 times / day. But as I said, if your bird has Candida with grow overnight and kill the bird.

I would say to try the pea paste. These are more details about how I make it:

-Defrost peas by keeping them in a cup with warm water for few minutes. Must be something like 200 grams of peas.
-After being defrozen, peel them. You do this way: put the defrosted peas on a clean & dry tray, on the left side. Take each pea between fingers and bite its peel a little them presure it with the fingers so that the two halves of the core to come out and put them on the right side of the tray. Peas that are too hardf must be excluded, as they block the syringe.
-After peeling the entire amount, put it in a syringe and make a test if it passes through the syringe (without needle). You may have left some peel or harder pea and if it blocks the syringe, clear it by inserting the needle with the tip through syringe's small hole.
-If all peas pass through syringe, put the content in a non-stick pan and put on heat a minute of some tens of seconds, until the pan becomes a little warm and warms the peas. The temperatureof the peas must be at bird's body temperature. Don't warm using microwaves as may left hot areas in the middle of pea mass that will burn the crop.
-Put the content in syringe, attach a tube (like the one from perfusion sets) and oil the end of the tube with fine oil (olive or almonds). To make the edge of the end of the tube that enter the bird's mouth softer, you can keep it above fire 3-4 seconds (avoiding to get burned), ofcourse, before oiling it
-give the bird as much as to feel the crop with a consistent amount but without being too much, as presure of the overfilled crop may cause blockage too.


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for your ideas Spirit Wings. I'm listening to all but just listening. I'm happy you and Jaye are on Pigeontalk. Andrei is really smart! He is a thinker and an innovator. I think it is good to be humble. It is never good to be a know it all and it is always good to listen. I did not ask anyone on Pigeontalk to assume the role of my birds doctor. I have simply been asking what you experienced, what you did and what the result was. I have a lot of experience. I also have a vet that has been treating just birds for 30 years. I gave canker meds baytril and crop massage before i made my first posting on this thread. All three of you have made incorrect assumtions which I haven't corrected. I thank you for your kindness and I'm glad you are helping pigeons. My new question is what have you experienced with young bird sickness, abeno virus 1 and 2.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Superflyer, I think is useful to tell us what assumptions of me and Jay were wrong, this is the way we learn.

Regarding adenovirus, I never made a viral lab tests, but at some bacterial tests some birds appeared to have e-coli, which in most cases isassociated with adenovirus and causes the main symptoms of Young Bird Disease: yellow, yellow-green unformed droppings (is some cases formed reddish brown droppings). I was told by two bacteriologist vets that from sick birds bacteria passes into the local environment and will ever be a cycle of birds getting infected -> birds infecting the environment and so on, which appeared to be true, aa more debile bird (one that cannot fly, having a broken wing and perhaps some other internal disfunction) is getting periodically reinfected.

What I noticed is that oral antibiotics are not strong enough to decrease the level of e-coli, you must give injections. Many vets give Enrofloxacin, I use Lincospectin, as I was told by a vet is more efficient and I tend to think is true.

I think in lofts is easier to make a disinfection to stop the reoccuring of the e-coli but I keep the birds in a room of a flat (except two birds with broken wings and ocassionally of sick birds which I pick up from streets, I have only some relatively healthy birds that reside at me, roaming freely outside and coming inside through window to eat or sleep).






This is how the broken wing's bird droppings look when she has e-coli. Is so voluminous because was after a night of staying on eggs but she also got cocci recently (th environment is infested with this too):


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

superflyer said:


> Thanks for your ideas Spirit Wings. I'm listening to all but just listening. I'm happy you and Jaye are on Pigeontalk. Andrei is really smart! He is a thinker and an innovator. I think it is good to be humble. It is never good to be a know it all and it is always good to listen. I did not ask anyone on Pigeontalk to assume the role of my birds doctor. I have simply been asking what you experienced, what you did and what the result was. I have a lot of experience. I also have a vet that has been treating just birds for 30 years. I gave canker meds baytril and crop massage before i made my first posting on this thread. All three of you have made incorrect assumtions which I haven't corrected. I thank you for your kindness and I'm glad you are helping pigeons. My new question is what have you experienced with young bird sickness, abeno virus 1 and 2.


you have a vet that treats birds for 30 years.! I give up, and don't even know why you are listening to anyone on the internet. 
people go out of their way to try to help and then you don't seem to use any of the advice that is given. no one "knows it all" but there are facts and there are guesses. next time instead of wasting members time.. go ask your 30 year experienced vet.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*superflyer: You ask questions, but never gave us all the facts and symptoms and the few people who have spent their quality time with giving the CORRECT answers (I read their responses) based on the info you gave, you now say they made incorrect assumptions.

I think you use too many drugs-too much switching around-their immune systems are suppressed and you may be making symptoms worse, your birds are not a science experiment, and why waste our valuable time when you have a vet who, if he/she is as experienced as you say he/she is, should be able to diagnose and give you the all the answers. Our rehabbers volunteer and give of their time, they specialize in pigeons, not birds, and there is a big difference in rehab and treatment.

Feed that poor bird, he needs the nutrition, even if it has to be watered down bird formula, he cannot live on drugs alone. 

If you want a direct conversation with one of our members and not the others, then private message them. *


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks all, the information you provided has been useful. I know Pigeontalk members have much experience and knowlege. That's why I post and read. I don't think I wasted anyones time. Adrei I'm
happy you are on Pigeontalk and I'm happy you responded you are smart, analytical and innovative and you tell it like it is. Jaye I'm happy you responded too and I am happy you wrote as you did. My bird is doing better. I fed him this morning and he ate a little on his own.


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## AndreiS (Jul 28, 2013)

Really glad to hear this and thank you for the nice words!


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## superflyer (Sep 13, 2008)

Well its not over yet. Thanks so much for suggesting the puffed rice and baby food peas! I soaked the puffed rice and then I poured the water off and mushed it. It has about the same thickness and water holding ability as Exact baby bird food. I mixed in some baby food peas with the wad of puffed rice and the mixture went easily through the syringe and feeding tube. I think it may have been the Amoxicillan tha t made the difference. Your pigeons sound very charming!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't mean puffed rice, right? You mean baby food rice cereal? They are two different things.


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