# lost BIRDS



## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Hello everyone I just got home and went out to see my birds.All my breeders where let out and never came home(most of them a year or to old) i broke down in tears because their was about 20 of them.I was wondering if someone had 4-5 pairs of breeders they can spare to help me.I lost them all and have no clue what to do.These where the only birds that laid eggs and had babies so can every one help me.


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## auntisocial (Apr 25, 2005)

Oh Erik,

I'm SOOOO sorry. I think I'd be devastated by something like that.  You've come to a good place. I can't help you but I bet there are people here who can. Good Luck.

How long have your pigeons been gone? Are you sure none of them will come back?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Erik,

I'm so sorry your birds are gone.

Now I'm going to ask some questions. ..How did they get out? or who let them out? and when did they leave? Did they leave on an empty stomach or full? Do they currently have babies...and what breed are they? Have they ever been out before?

I wouldn't give up on them all, if they are homing pigeons chances are some or all might come home, and if they have never been out, they may take their time when they are out for the first time, also if they left on an a full stomach chances are they are enjoying themselves, but they will get hungry and come home. Hopefully they don't have babies, but if they do they should be back even sooner.

Meanwhile call them with the familiar voice or sounds that they know. Also, a word or two to God to bring them home...will also help.

Good luck

Treesa


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

*reply*

Hello as far as i know they have been out all day.They left without food so i dont think they will come back.They didnt have any babies right now(wearther got nasty) I dont know who let them out but i have a feeling it was the same person that broke into it last year.I dont think they will come back because of the fact that they are all older then 1 year.These where not from my loft but i do have the band numbers from one of the birds(will call the racing club and ask them to get the owner to see if the birds went back to his loft) but will someone please try and find 4-5 pairs that they can let go to help me.


Thanks


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If they have homed from where you got them, then most likely they are at their former home. 

If they were babies when you got them and never been let out, they may still return.

I would definitely secure the coop and lock it up when your gone.

Treesa


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Treesa gave you good advice.
Can you contact their former owner to keep an eye out for them? Chances are they will return to their former home.
You might be able to get most of them back, and if you do, please invest into a lock.

Good luck.

Reti


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Sorry Erik but I am going to have to jump in here and state some facts for new people to pigeons.com . I am sure others that you have taken advantage of will be along soon as well as Ellen to back this all up.

I will have to urge people here to review previous health issue posts concerning Erik's lofts and wrongful activity of gifted birds to this teenager being sold for profit. You can also visit eggbid.com and see where he sells gifted birds. There are many posts on pigeons.com about his selling of gifted birds. I would be careful here. 

Sorry Erik, but people have a right to know you have serious health issues and also how you ask for free birds then sell the gifted birds.


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Hello can someone please get me the number to the Bakersfield Pigeon Club?


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Look I dont know how this got started but its not true the only birds I have sold are birds that i have got myself or birds i have raised.Thats the truth I dont care what any one else says its not true someone started it because i got some rollers that i wasnt supossed to have so he got mad.I do not sell birds that where givin to me.All those birds on eggbid.com are birds i bought or raised myself.So please stop saying i SELL birds that are givin to me because its not true.But if you want to think its true then go right ahead.I dont have to put up with this because of someone starting a romur.!


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Eric, I am sorry, but it is wrong to ask for birds with your situation. You are way in over your head with birds that have on going health issues. You have been urged to get you a mentor to help teach you to properly care for your birds. You wont go to pigeon meetings where you can be set up with mentors when people have offered to take you.

Also it is no rumor, Motherload lofts knows who you got all the birds you were trying to sell, then the add just disappeared on here when you were caught. 

Sorry Erik just the facts


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Ok I am not going to put up with this.My birds are fine now I take care of them and I have no way getting to the meetings because of what time my parents get home.If i had a way to get their I would trust me that I would.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Birdboy,

I couldn't help but wonder as I read your post what happened to the baby 
homer that you were asking advice on just less than a week ago under the "Drunk Pigeon" thread? Is this a weaned baby from the missing?


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I have to agree with Zookeeper here, your care for your birds has a lot of room for improvement.

What has happened to your "drunk bird"?


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

birdboy12 said:


> Ok I am not going to put up with this.My birds are fine now I take care of them and I have no way getting to the meetings because of what time my parents get home.If i had a way to get their I would trust me that I would.


Erik, I have offered to take you 3 or 4 times to race meetings and you will not go. So I know the truth on that line as well. I have given you the number to the Bakersfield Race Club, furthermore Jack lives right by you and as you know he is a member. If you truly had an interest in attending meetings and getting a mentor, you would use the opportunities that have been presented to you. 

By the way, how is you latest sick pigeon, the baby you posted that acts drunk, does not walk well, and has legs goofy?

Sorry to have to type this but this really makes me upset when I have seen all the birds you have and watched all the problems you have had and still do, then to watch you ask to more birds so they can just get sick. 

You really need to stop taking in birds until you learn to care for the ones you have and keep them well.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Erik's latest quest for pigeons......*



birdboy12 said:


> Ok I am not going to put up with this.My birds are fine now I take care of them and I have no way getting to the meetings because of what time my parents get home.If i had a way to get their I would trust me that I would.


Erik,

Ok, I have been reading along here on your latest quest for yet more birds. Now let's go through this little scenerio here that you have been carrying on for far to long.

We will skip a few in between, like the people that have already sent you birds to help you get started, we will go right to where the questions started getting asked of what was going on there with you.

You started posting due to sick birds, this was ages ago, then a lot of people on the group sent you medication to assist your birds, this was not for your benefit, it was for the benefit of the birds because the concern was that the birds were going to die because we have a child out there tending to their needs that doesn't know how to care for them or the ability to purchase the expensive medication that it would take to properly care for these pigeons, so the kind hearted people on pigeons.com rushed to the post office to meet the needs of your birds, only to have the same thing happen over and over again with health issues in your loft, and you never once followed up on the attempts that have been made for a mentor, or to become a junior member of your local club so that the members can help you. 

You have yet to contact anyone local only those on pigeons.com for emergency care you do not seek out the long term care that is needed for your pigeons, nor do you follow normal quarentine protocal, isolation protical or any other protocal for that matter, you are just not ready for this responsibility, you continue to have health issues ongoing, and will not listen to anyone who tries to assist you, you want a quick fix and then you go on about your mary way with out paying any further mind to what caused this issue in the first place.

You have continously showed a pattern of playing on the sympathy of people that you are but a kid looking for a helping hand, many have bought into this, except as you remember I did not when you emailed me personally requesting for birds from me, I can say that if there was any sincerity in you I am very generous and would have done so easily, for me to say no to a kid there is something wrong with this picture and I can also say that anyone that asks if I have heard of you I will continue to tell them the history you have shown in your past and until you decide to do this correct you will continue to see the same pattern. 

On another note it was pointed out on pigeons.com that you were then selling these same birds that you had obtained through unknown motives, whether you admit it or not, whether you say you were not supposed to have them or not is a mere excuse, you seen a way to make a profit from others, whether you are in this alone or not is still to be determined.

Now in regards to the meetings, I am the mentor for Zookeeper, her and I discussed your attending the meetings at the club house and she has made the offer, you have yet to present yourself at a single meeting even with the opportunity only 5 minutes from you.

Now the other issue here is as all will see in prior posts I have done everything possible to set you up with one of the best mentors in your area, most would have really been so fortunate to have Tom as their mentor as he is an excellent competitor in the sport and would have been a great teacher for you, but yet again you did not go to the club house when I personally advised you of this, you stood him up, so I don't know where you will stand with him now, he expected you to be there, I am not sure how you expect us to react with the history with you so far.

Now you have the audasity to come on here and yet again ask for pigeons, this is beyond belief, I can say that you really need to read over what I have written and really think about it, you have made some serious errors in judgement since you began your involvement with the pigeons, and pigeon fanciers, it is time for you to take responsibility and figure out that the pigeons are not going to make you rich, yes they may give you some pocket change at other's expense but there is no integrity to the way you are obtaining them and it is an injustice to the pigeons with the care they are receiving from you, give it a rest and take some time to learn responsibility and maybe at that time people will have forgotten or forgiven some of the mistakes you have made so far.

No one should be gifting you with birds what so ever, I hope that those that you contact will be able to contact other's that have knowledge of your history as I do and others do and they will have the opportunity to stop it before they feel violated as others feel from your past actions.

Ellen


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Buying*

Gifts are fine. But being a mother I beleive childern have the abilitly to earn money and buy things that are important to them . Pigeons and video games. What you buy you value and are responible.

When I was 10 I bought my first pigeons. Thier food was provide by my parents. Only had a few so disease wasn't an issue until I increased numbers and kinds.

Then I had to learn about cleaning and mdeications. I would seek out people near by who raised pigeons. Most good breeders will have you purchase birds for they have value.

The cost of feed, bands, meds. and club dues as well as time. Gifts are given to those who can show they love and care for thier birds.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

birdboy12 said:


> Hello can someone please get me the number to the Bakersfield Pigeon Club?


Erik,
Since you reside in Bakersfield, it would easiest for you to check your local phone book for the listing of the Bakersfield Pigeon Club or call directory assistance.  

Cindy


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> Erik, I have offered to take you 3 or 4 times to race meetings and you will not go. So I know the truth on that line as well. I have given you the number to the Bakersfield Race Club, furthermore Jack lives right by you and as you know he is a member. If you truly had an interest in attending meetings and getting a mentor, you would use the opportunities that have been presented to you.
> 
> By the way, how is you latest sick pigeon, the baby you posted that acts drunk, does not walk well, and has legs goofy?
> 
> ...




OK first of all you have never asked me to go with you.Also I dont always like asking Jack what i should do with my birds because his thing is "kill it" and i cant do that.The baby that was acting weird is fine.If you want the meds back ill send them back all you are doing is using it againts me witch isnt FAIR! I dont ask people for birds and then sell them.So stop saying I am.Also some of the things that happend wherent me.Someone was hacking into my screen names.So dont say something you dont know.!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

birdboy12 said:


> Look I dont know how this got started but its not true the only birds I have sold are birds that i have got myself or birds i have raised.Thats the truth I dont care what any one else says its not true someone started it because i got some rollers that i wasnt supossed to have so he got mad.I do not sell birds that where givin to me.All those birds on eggbid.com are birds i bought or raised myself.So please stop saying i SELL birds that are givin to me because its not true.But if you want to think its true then go right ahead.I dont have to put up with this because of someone starting a romur.!


 Dear Erick,

At some point, you do have to "GROW UP", if you can't find the way, or time, etc. to a meeting, then you just are not ready for the responsibility of caring for pigeons. Maybe in five or ten years, you will have developed some maturity, and will understand what is being said here. In the mean time, you are part of the problem, not the solution.


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Thats the most famous thing to say "you need to grow up" I try and find people here that can and will help me but I cant.ZooKeeper turned on me and stared something that was dead and she had to did it up.I am nice to people who are nice to me.I will not let someone talk about me and then me not speak my mind.I just wont do it you can say I have to grow up you can say what ever you like.I know this is not true so I will not let it bother me.I am going to contact the guy that owned the birds before me and see if the birds went home.Also I am not trying to contact the whole BakersFeild Pigeon club.Im just trying to contact the head guy that will be able to find out the band info for me ( AU BAK 3848 2001) so I can contact the owner.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

birdboy12 said:


> OK first of all you have never asked me to go with you.Also I dont always like asking Jack what i should do with my birds because his thing is "kill it" and i cant do that.The baby that was acting weird is fine.If you want the meds back ill send them back all you are doing is using it againts me witch isnt FAIR! I dont ask people for birds and then sell them.So stop saying I am.Also some of the things that happend wherent me.Someone was hacking into my screen names.So dont say something you dont know.!



Erik, I think the bottom line here you need to concentrate on the birds you have and not get further birds until you have learned to care for the ones you have and have a significant decrease in health issues. 

You can deny all you want that I have not offered to take you to meetings, but I have and you know this. I have talked to you in person, on the phone, through instant messenger, and via email as well. 

You can get mad and have this attitude, but there are just too many people aware of the happenings at your house with your pigeons, from the Bakersfield race club, to people which have helped you, to pigeons.com. 

My point is not to be mean to you, it is to protect the pigeons. I can tell you each time you come on to pigeons.com and ask for free birds, I will be right here to warn people. When things change with your situation, I will stop warning people not to give you birds. As you can see from all the various posts and previous posts from other threads you have started, I do not stand alone on this opinion.

Everyone wants to help you with the birds you have now, not give you more because you are having difficulty handling the birds you have right now. Just remember, you had a mentor willing to help and teach you and you have blown that off.

If you think I am the only person who thinks you dont need to be given more birds then why dont you open a new thread and take a poll on who thinks you need more pigeons and look at the responses. I think you will find that I dont stand alone on this thought.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Erik,

I have to admit, reading this thread and having seen some of your "history" first hand here on the board, things here sound kinda "fishy".

I hope that someone or by some accident, you didn't loose a bunch of your birds / breeders as you claim at the begining of this thread. If you did, I'm very sorry, I'd be devistated if I came home and found my loft door open and all my birds gone. However, if I did, I doubt my first reaction would be to get on pigeons.com and ask for "free" birds from folks... again, sounds "fishy."

I hope too that the birds you do have or ones that pass your way in the future fair well. Sure, the cycle of nature is the cycle of nature, but remember, by keeping these birds as pets, or for racing, or for personal enjoyment, or for eventual profit, you're taking on a responsibility to care for a life... or lives as the case of many pigeons in a loft... you shouldn't take those lives for granted and / or prey on other's sympathy in regards to those lives... and it is just plain bad karma to not care for those lives as best you can... sure, you may not keep them safe always or always make wise decissions, but at the same time, you shouldn't be taking those lives and trying to turn a profit of some sort without the highest concern... which, sounds like it has been established that you have tried. Frankly, Erik, I also wonder how much your parents are involved in steering your hand in this matter... one way or the other.

All that being said, I hope that is in your past and you'll honestly care for the birds under your care, but, again, mostly I hope the birds that have landed your way are safe and well cared for, regardless of what you think of us or what you think is acceptable behavior as you make your life in this world.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Erik,

Here's the info for the Bakersfield club:

Club Name : BAKERSFIELD RPC 
Club Code : BAK 
Club Secretary : LARRY HEISER 
City : BAKERSFIELD 
State : CA 
Phone No. : 661-399-7731 

The club information is readily available on the internet at: http://www.pigeon.org/bandlist.php

Terry


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

*Erik - Follow-up sega*

Erik,

Ok, I have now read again all that has been said from everyone and I can say that you have gotten some very good information to think about, and Terry has posted the information for the Bakersfield Club secretary which I know was provided to you when you were looking for the old owner of the old Bakersfield banded pigeon you had in your possesion.

Now with all this said, I hope that you will take the time to read, understand, and make some choices in your life when it comes to the pigeons that come into your care, I can only hope that at this time no more will find their way to you until you are ready. I hope that your parents are sincerely educating you in what is right and wrong and not getting a laugh out of what you have been doing in your most recent past, which is what I suspect as no one could live in the same house as a child and not see it.

Now I do want to touch basis with you on your comment about Jack, you are way off base on this comment about what he would tell you to do, while Jack may advise you under certain circumstances that it would be best for the bird to euthenize it, and his words may not be quite the same as mine but I think that this would be more in his manner. I have met Jack at the show that I expected to see you at and yes he is a little on the tough side he seems to be pretty reasonable and a man that has many years behind him. After you mentioned to me that Jack was assisting you on some of your birds and some of the things that you mentioned he had told you to do with your birds, well I did some checking on him with some very well known and very reputable pigeon people. What I found out is that Jack used to be a rescue rehabber and has had pigeons of all species, he has basically retired at this time from most of his pigeon hobby but still attends the club events, Jack doesn't get around as well now a days and he is very liked and respected by many in all aspects of the pigeon community. Now with this said I will caution you to choose your words lightly when commenting on things that involve him, the next time I speak with him I will ask him about your comment that you have made that all he does is tell you to kill your birds, I just don't think that this sounds like him but to be sure I will mention that to him and if this is the case I think that it is important that I do speak with him, and I would suggest another person to assist you there in Bakersfield but I know that this will not happen as you have already proven that.

I think that what I also need to do here in the near future is contact your uncle and discuss this with him since he is supposed to be a fellow pigeon fancier and you have stated that he over sees your goings on and see what can be done to get you back on the right track with his assistance.

Ellen


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you guys are so funny you think you know every thing that goes on dont you.Just because he acts one way to you doenst mean he will do the same thing to someone else go ahead and call my uncle (if you even have his number)hes my mentore so stop saying i need one ok you dont know any thing about my life or about my birds.Every one gets sick pigeons and then they get better so stop talking all this stuff to me.Im sick of it you butt in and start saying something that you dont know any thing about just because someone started something so dont say something if you didnt hear it your self because its not right


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Time for closure...*

It saddens me to see threads go by the way side. It seems like we have another one that has gotten negative and certainly not contributing anything good to this forum. Hopefully a moderator will step in and decide that enough is enough.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Birdboy,

If nothing else from this thread, I hope you can walk away knowing that people
care about your birds and your knowledge base as well. While feeling protective
of your birds they would also like to provide you with learning experiences that
will help you in your goal of raising pigeons. It may feel like an attack on your 
person, but, if you stop and think about it, even doctor's do refresher and upgrade courses. I'm many decades older than you, but I hope I never stop
learning, because that is what life is all about, constant changes and hopefully
the improvements that come along with it.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I think learning and accepting responsibility for the present pigeons was the entire issue here. Many people have been to Erik's house, I for one and know there are problems there. This child needs to learn to care for the birds he has. It is a lot for an adult to care for 80+ birds when they have the financial means, but for a child that is too much to ask. It is obvious that Erik is having a hard time.

I dont personally see that this link has gone so wrong. I think it has shown that Erik is in over his head and does not even realize it. I think the only way he is ever going to realize it is if people continue to drill it into his head.

I am saddened that parents will stand by and allow this as well. I have a 13 year old daughter and if we were having the problems Erik is having I would shut it down until we were able to learn more. 

The pigeons are the ultimate creatures suffering. 

I have personally brought one of Erik's birds to my house to rehab it and it was the saddest thing I have ever seen. The bird had cocci, thin beyond belief, a broken leg, waste all over it and smelt so bad that when my daughter entered the garage, she asked what the smell was. 

This is very sad. I think closing this thread only condones what Erik is doing


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

IMO, think if every time an unpleasant subject matter comes to light in a thread
we close the thread to avoid the uncomfortable feeling, it would defeat the 
purpose of discussion.

Zookeeper, your story about the rehabbed bird is truly disheartening. Thanks
for helping Eric's pigeon with what must have been shear torture for it. 
Very disheartening, and in light of this, you have shown real restraint.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

I hope all can realize that neither I nor Ellen pick on Erik just because. There are real issues here. I live 5 minutes from Erik. I am very much aware and only want what is best for his birds. Ellen has made so many attempts to help this child. Terry has made attempts. Bruce has as well as Scott. I am sure there are others as well. 

Everyone tries to help Erik and it just seems like it goes no where. I think another issue that really stresses me is the fact that there are health issues on a continuing basis and he sells his birds. This is wrong. Even if he sells a bird that is not sick, they are exposed and what is he doing to another persons loft? He is infecting their lofts. This is once again an example of the immaturity he is showing. 

I was personally with Ellen when she spoke to the Bakersfield Club about Erik. She has tried to get him help. He reports he has an uncle up north, that is not helping the situation at hand. He needs help in this town but wont except it other that to help with sick birds. He does not want help to learn preventative care.

Once again I am sorry that some feel this has gone wrong, but I strongly disagree. The only way to help is to let people voice an opinion so at some point something might click.

As for his bird I rehabed, I truly did not want to give it back because I knew what it was going back to. Sadly I had no choice as it was not mine


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## birdboy12 (Jul 27, 2004)

Wow what a story their.When i got the rollers they where in way way worse shape then when i had them.i dont have near 80 birds any more so dont bring that up.I never said I didn`t want any ones help with my birds.Also why do you bring my uncle in this.Not to brag or any thing or put other people down but he probally knows more about pigeons then any one on this message bored.If my house and lofts are as bad as you say they are then why didnt you say any thing about them in the first place.Why do you dig it up now on here?If you think you can help(ZooKeeper) then you come over here and see what you can do.Also dont bring my pernets in this.I called Lary and talked to him about joining the pigeon club and im going after the racers are done since their are no club meetings during racing so now you cant say I dont want help because I do need help and I never said I didn`t.


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Erik, I am glad to hear that you called Larry. That will be great to have you there. There are some awesome flyers in the club who can teach you a lot. That is all anyone here wants is you to learn and be an awesome pigeon keeper and flyer if you ever chose. 

As for the shape of your birds, yes we did discuss that. I talked to you about medications, to stop getting birds, to quarantine your birds, to keep your sick birds away from the others. 

When I took your bird home, I gave you the cage the roller was in because I was extremely worried about taking it back to my house. I was nervous and used great care not to transfer things to my birds while I had your bird. That would also be when your bird had ornithosis, I did not touch the bird and talked to you about handwashing and such. I tried to use tact and wording that would make sense for your age. So in short we did discuss your situation with your birds. 

We also discussed that you need to pick one type of bird and concentrate on learning one set of birds instead of having many different types. We actually did discuss a lot. 

The bottom line today is I am very glad you called Larry. It will be wonderful to have you there and to have another junior flyer in the club. Your knowledge will just blossom being around a lot of pigeon keepers.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> Everyone tries to help Erik and it just seems like it goes no where. I think another issue that really stresses me is the fact that there are health issues on a continuing basis and he sells his birds. This is wrong. Even if he sells a bird that is not sick, they are exposed and what is he doing to another persons loft? He is infecting their lofts. This is once again an example of the immaturity he is showing.


 Dear Zoo Keeper,

I understand your concerns, and do not disagree with your views. The fact of the matter is, there are many adults in this country who are feather merchants, who sell sick pigeons. There are many adult members in local racing clubs, that apparently have no clue, as to how to maintain health in their birds.

Poor loft management, depending on your level of understanding, may very well be the norm. There are guys out there, with decades of experience, and "maturity", that are simply ignorant of basic biology.

The internet, email etc., has a downside, in that we sometimes "say" things, we would never say to a persons face. I myself slip, from time to time. I chastized this kid to "grow up", like he was my kid or something. If I would have been standing in front of him, I would not have said that.

Perhaps, we should all take a step back, and take a deep breath. A normal response from someone 14 or 50, who has been "scolded" is to become defensive. Our goal here, should be to share and learn. If this turns into a personality conflict, then we risk more harm then good.

In an ideal world, we would all take perfect care of our pigeons. The loft would be sparkling clean, the birds all vaccinated, and in perfect health. Since we are unable to achive that with our children in this country, in spite of trillions spent on health care. I doubt we will achieve "health" in all the pigeon coops around the country either.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Very well said Warren.  

Cindy


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Yes, well said Warren.


---


Whether this thread gets locked or not, is up to the Mods... either way, I hope Erik's birds fair well in his care... and, Erik, I might caution you that coming here asking for "free birds" may not be the best thing for you to do again anytime soon for the reasons discussed here-in is a point that should be taken and hopefully not lost on you and others as the thread goes on (or not).


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## zoo keeper (Oct 3, 2004)

Warren,

You do have some very valid points as others have said on there is no perfect loft 

My point when this started was the child does not need more birds for many reasons. Yes, health is a great issue, but there are also issues here as well.

For one he has asked for and taken free birds then sold them. I believe you spoke once on someone doing that to you and how it was wrong. He begs everyone for birds. 

I have tons of young birds and I would be the first in line to help him out with young birds if I knew he could love and care for them and not use me by selling them, but this has proven not to be the case. 

I have to hand it to him for a young kid to be so ingenious to figure out a way to make money, but the facts are still the same he is doing wrong to people he begs for help with free birds. 

I could easily stop posting on this link, but next time he begs for free birds I will respond again. I live 5 minutes from him and know a lot about this mess from observation and from listening to people at the race club. 

So, no there is no perfect loft, but there is right, wrong, morals, and eithics being addressed in this thread as well. I mean look back at the one post when he had sick birds and he posted on here if we did not help him he would be selling his birds to the bird hunters/killers. He knew what he was doing when he posted that because he posted it on a forum that protects the life of birds. All he had to do was mention that he would have his birds killed and he would get what he wanted for free. He was given hundreds of dollars in medication, then Ellen and I checked out his auctions to see that he had made several hundred dollars from selling birds about the same time he was using people. He had the means to pay for those medications. Now yes after it was said and done his mother offered to pay for the meds, but he should have never used people as he did.

I have a daughter just 4 months younger than him and I can guarantee you if she was using people in such a manor she would be in hot water and it would come to a stop faster than she could blink her eyes. 

This forum is supposed to be fun, for sharing advice, yapping, but not to use the members as he has done. 

Tanya


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

zoo keeper said:


> Warren,
> 
> You do have some very valid points as others have said on there is no perfect loft
> 
> ...



That was so well stated!!! I could have never said it that well. I know Erik's feelings will (are) hurt, but hopefully he (and his parents too I suspect) will get over it and listen up. Being able to accept criticism is important... and Tanya's points on Erik's behavior on selling gift birds and also always asking for more free (gift) birds is *spot on*... hopefully it will give Erik a dose of humility too.


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Warren,

I agree as well that your post brings up some very good issues and is very well stated and in the ordinary would be considered and the right of this child would be respected and assisted.

Now in the case of this young person Erik, I believe there is much more going on then is being posted here, he did admit to selling the birds, now he states that he didn't sell the birds and someone hacked into his user information, that doesn't make since, he is not being honest with anyone, the bottom line is that yes I would tell Erik in person but would prefer to deal with his parents on the issue with his presense so that he knows what is going on, he tries to say his parents don't know anything about this, now does anyone believe that he is getting this money and these birds and his parents don't know anything about it, how about transporting the birds to the post office to be shipped, I really don't believe that he is packaging them and then riding his bike down to ship them and completing the forms to allow the birds to be shipped. 

I feel that as adults and as pigeon hobbiest we have an obligation to put a stop to anyone that is duping other's not to mention ignoring the well being of the pigeons, anyone that chooses to take in and house another being has an obligation to properly care and nurture those lifes to the best of their ability, if the person is not able to then that person needs relinquish their rights to their charges, get proper training to care for their birds, or to be stopped prior to it becoming a city or county issue, I have been involved in those recently with another person and there were many lifes lost because of the neglect the birds were getting, to this day I still have 29 of those birds in my care and there were 6 times that in lifes lost before someone stepped in. 

Now I think as a pigeon hobbiest or as a pet owner we do have an obligation to try our best to either educate and if that fails then put a stop to any further harm coming to innocent beings, this would be said for any of gods living creatures whether it be human, warm blooded, or cold blooded creatures. I have spoke to Erik on the phone myself as well and tried to advise him and I have stress to him the importance of caring for the pigeons he has in his care, his uncle Leon Stephens lives in El Monte, California which is a few hours away from him which in these circumstances is not helping him at all, I have tried to avoid calling him up to this point thinking that every time Erik tells me his going to follow-up with the local pigeon club he will do it, I think it is getting to be that time to actually go ahead and make the call and see exactly where this all stands with him and if he is able to advise Erik better and get him to listen where we seem to be failing with him.

Please continue with the excellent posts, again it was very well said, but in this case I need you to believe in me that Erik needs firmness as the nice approach has not worked so far I have tried both in email and phone calls, I think that some one in his home are getting a good laugh at us and thinking that we are all pretty ignorant letting a 13 year old dupe us to this point.


Yours in the sport,

Ellen


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

zoo keeper said:


> When I took your bird home, I gave you the cage the roller was in because I was extremely worried about taking it back to my house. I was nervous and used great care not to transfer things to my birds while I had your bird. That would also be when your bird had ornithosis, I did not touch the bird and talked to you about handwashing and such. I tried to use tact and wording that would make sense for your age. So in short we did discuss your situation with your birds.
> 
> Sorry to bring up an unpleasant topic here, but was this bird diagnosed as actually having chlamydia, or was it an undiagnosed observaton?


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## relofts (Apr 8, 2004)

Feralpigeon,

The bird had Ornithosis, actually there was more then one that had early symptoms as well, Tanya has a book that is very good that shows pictures of what you are looking for, most of us can give a pretty good diagnosis of a pigeon from experience and caring for our pigeons, I have had pigeons for 13 years, I can usually tell you what is going on with a pigeon from experience over the years, Ornithosis when in the stage that this case was in is pretty easily diagnosed.

Symptoms that the bird Erik had were the same as described below:
Severe unilateral inflammation of the entire eye which has become additionally infected with pusforming pathogens.

Treatment:
Flocks are treated with chlortetracyclin+, which has been successfully used for many years to control ornithosis. In order to maintain effective blood levels, administration of chlortetracyclin+ must not be interrupted during the 25-day treatment period.

Ellen


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Ellen,

While I've never had to deal with this problem, I've read the regimen that was 
undertaken in terms of medication and loft conditions, also, if true, does Birdboy understand that he can get sick as well, and how has his health been?

In case Birdboy hasn't seen this link:

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/articles/psittacosis_chlamydia.htm

Anyway, I hope all involved are protecting their health appropriately, and what
can I say Birdboy, other than, I'll feel relieved if you do take avail of the help the local club can provide to you.

respectfully

fp


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Hello To Everyone!*

Hi Erik, How are you doing? How many birds do you have? What kind are they? What size loft do you have? Happy that some people are helping you. It's easy to get overcrowd. And with more birds things happen. I know it feels good to get new birds. And it hard to find homes for the extra birds when you grow to love them.


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