# Concerned about wildlife center advice in regards to PMV bird



## sandt (Feb 24, 2008)

Hello everyone,
this is my first post here. We rescued a pigeon (for the first time)that has the same symptoms as Sarahttt has described-in particular the neck twisting and the head seeming at times to be turned completely upside down while the body is standing normally. When the pigeon sleeps it's head seems to be drooped to one side.
I read about PMV on this very website and was encouraged to learn that if it is PMV there is a good chance of recovery if the pigeon is given the right conditions.
We called a Wildlife Centre here in Toronto to get more information and we were told that if the bird has PMV there is no chance of recovery because the disease causes the degeneration of the lining of the brain.
How long should we care for the pigeon before we can know whether it will recover or not.
If it looks like it will not recover what is the best thing to do?
Any advice would be much appreciated!
Thank you in advance!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The worst one I ever had was really bad for one month, pretty bad for another month and kinda' bad for one after that. Now, she lives out in the loft with the other birds all on her own. She has occasional seizures, but they only last a few seconds and then she's okay.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sandt said:


> We called a Wildlife Centre here in Toronto to get more information and we were told that if the bird has PMV there is no chance of recovery because the disease causes the degeneration of the lining of the brain.
> How long should we care for the pigeon before we can know whether it will recover or not.
> *If it looks like it will not recover what is the best thing to do?*


Hello and Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

Thank you for rescuing this bird.

Never give up, we have seen too many success stories here to count. Most birds do get better and can survive.

The fact is most people do not rehabilitate them and don't know much about the disease, and it is and can be long term rehab. But we have seen way too many success stories on this forum here...to count. The birds do get better and do well, some may not be releasable as they can have recurring symptoms when they are stressed, but those symptoms are much milder then in the beginning. You do have to follow strict guidelines because they are contagious, but that period ends too.

I'm going to move your post to its own thread and thanks again for helping this bird.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi,

Depends how they see 'recovery'. I assume they mean to the point where a bird is releasable.

They can certainly recover to the point where they can have a good quality of life in a safe environment - including finding a mate if one is available - but I would be very doubtful about releasing one even if it appears to have regained normality. 

Our experience is that they may have recurrence of the neurological signs of PMV (but not passing the virus), and though they _may_ be only occasional or less severe than on first getting sick, that is not always so. After regaining flight and seeming fine for a while, they _can_ become as disabled as they were before. 

There is no way to tell 'how well' a bird has recovered once the original symptoms abate, unless it is kept safe for a lengthy period afterwards (like, several months). They may also have permanent kidney damage which may or may not cause problems later in life. 

John


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

...but having said that, John, we have some that made a complete recovery and are still going strong over 7 years later, with no relapse or residual weakness. Not only that but they are both alpha males.

Cynthia


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Sandt,

I rescued *Mr. Fifty* on my wife's 50th birthday June 5, 2006. Male squeaker, neck twisting, scalp torn off, flying backwards (like doing a back-flip from a standing position while trying to take off, but continuing backwards a couple of meters). We kept him five weeks, fed him well and kept him warm. His voice changed while we had him, and he started roo-cooing the females we had around. He flew out and joined the street pigeons since we couldn't keep him inside, and my wife saw him a year later, acting like an normal healthy male pigeon. 

I rescued another one with somewhat mild symptoms a few weeks ago. *PP2C* had been to the _Taubenklinik Essen_ (pigeon clinic in Essen Gemany, large establishment for racing pigeons and such, biggest and best in Germany) for a lump under the foot which apparently turned out to be due to trauma (as opposed to infection), had a negative crop swab microscopic test and a 8 Euro/$12 blood test for salmonellosis, and otherwise seemed to be fine. A couple of weeks later he missed while pecking at foot, had trouble gaining a foothold on our windowsill. I caught him (seeds on table near window, close window, chase him into bathroom, lights out, nab him in dark), and he showed signs of neck twisting (head completely upside down). Can't keep pigeons inside, can't legally feed them outside. After five days of good food hand-fed and oral pigeon vitamin concoctions he was symptom-free and back outside. He visits daily with a mate. Made videos of him which I will post to _YouTube_ eventually. One video interestingly enough shows that he has no trouble standing on one foot and scratching his neck feathers with the other foot.

My male pigeon Wieteke had PMV symptoms in spring 2006, and is a very dominant alpha male street pigeon still going strong. He and I have been through several pigeon illnesses together: paratyphoid/salmonellosis as an 18-day-old rescued chick, later coccidiosis.

I've written about these pigeons concerning PMV in other of my posts.

Don't give up on them if they are not willing to give up!

Good luck and best wishes.

Larry


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## sandt (Feb 24, 2008)

*so much thanks*

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, thoughts and advice-before finding this forum i didn't know where to find help i can trust. 
My secret fear is that if I take the pigeon to the wildlife centre they would want to euthenize the pigeon if they diagnose it as having PMV- knowing it is contagious to the other birds they are helping. 
I don't know if i can trust their diagnosis if they have a lot of people bringing feral pigeons to them and they perhaps have too many to care for.
Also-a question about pigeons-how do I know if it is female or male?
Larry-what kind of vitamins have you feed your pigeons. I add some (for human intake) vitamin C powder as well as multivitamin powder to the food. I also add liquid Calcium.
sincere thanks,
Sanja


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can give human vitamins, just make sure to give tiny amounts. Pet stores carry bird vitamins in liquid form or powder.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I give alfalfa to my rescues, 1/4 of a human tablet. It is cheap and loaded with good stuff. It's high in chorophyll, detoxes the liver, helps with many ailments, and has biotin, calcium, choline, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, protein and even B complex, Vitamin A, all good for PMV birds.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Trees Gray said:


> I give alfalfa to my rescues, 1/4 of a human tablet. It is cheap and loaded with good stuff. It's high in chorophyll, detoxes the liver, helps with many ailments, and has biotin, calcium, choline, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, protein and even B complex, Vitamin A, all good for PMV birds.



I didn't know alfalfa has all this good stuff in it.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Reti said:


> I didn't know alfalfa has all this good stuff in it.


Yep, that's what makes it such a wonderful plant.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Late reply*

Sanja,

Sorry for a delayed reply; I have been busy moving and setting things up in our new residence the past couple of months, and only recently came across your question (in an e-mail automatically sent to me, as part of a subscription to all threads I post to or request a subscription to).

In response to your question, what vitamins do I feed my pigeons:

Right now I "have" no pigeons I handle on a regular basis. I miss this physical contact with them.

I look after some street pigeons, and catch them when they need rescuing, if I am able.

I have been dropping seed for a sick pigeon recently, *Bronzi*, a former rescue of mine, who has a large lump under her left eye, due either to trauma or to possibly pox. Every couple of days I soak the seeds in some pigeon liquid vitamin supplement:

n.v. *Versele-Laga Colombine Colombosal* Condition preparation 
19,20 Euro per 500 ml 
A sort of vitamin pep-up for racing birds; no vitamin A or D3 in it. 
1 ml per day (in water) is enough for one bird
This is made by a Belgian company which makes many products for pigeon racers and pigeon raisers. 


I use this on all pigeon rescues, and seems to help greatly in their recovery.

I will not be able to catch Bronzi unless she becomes much more ill. I went to her a week ago with a net in my hand, and she was very reluctant to come down, and stayed three to four meters away from me. Every other time I went to feed her, minus the net, she had no hesitation in coming down to feed. These pigeons are quite smart. Her condition has been stable, and she can pick up the seeds quite well, even though the peripheral vision in her left eye is restricted. I think she is slowly recovering. I originally caught her when she was quite weak, standing close to a street person waiting for hand-outs. She had lost all her tail feathers to a raptor, and most of her back feathers to other pigeons who wanted her to stay apart from them and not attract predators. She was a squeaker, and was losing body heat during the cold nights faster than she could replace it with the meager fare she had to compete for on the streets. I kept her inside while her feathers grew back and she developed into a beautiful female pigeon. Another rescue of mine, *Luxie-311*, was sweet on her, but he could not use his tail, so could not properly strut and coo and drag his tail. They hung around together for a while, but I have not seen him the past two weeks. Maybe a hawk got him, but I hope not. They were both born last summer. 

Sanja, what was the outcome of your rescue?

Larry


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

sandt said:


> My secret fear is that if I take the pigeon to the wildlife centre they would want to euthenize the pigeon if they diagnose it as having PMV- knowing it is contagious to the other birds they are helping.
> I don't know if i can trust their diagnosis if they have a lot of people bringing feral pigeons to them and they perhaps have too many to care for.


This is always a hug problem when dealing w/ wildlife rehab places. they WILL put down birds/animals (particularly one as "common" as a feral pigeon) which are absolutely NOT terminal. The one near me, although it has received many accolades....will do this to feral pigeons without a second thought.

It becomes a question of...if they do not have an almost 100% chance of survival/re-integration on release, they will be euthanized. 

No consideration for the possibility of them having a good quality of life in any other situation.

It burns me up. So you are right to hesitate. Whenever I hear any hint of that sorta thinking...I know the pigeon is not going to end up in their hands.

Glad you are keeping up w/ it....it is very good of you and you have done your feathered friend a tremendous favor.


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## pigeonperfect (May 7, 2007)

I live in NJ and have been a wildlife rehabber for many years. I am one of the few who will deal with pigeons. 

Recovery can happen, however, the bird will always carry the virus and potentially spread it, which is why you've gotten the advice from rehabbers that you have. Pigeons, being flock birds, can pass the virus onto others even if they show no signs of the virus being active. I guess the question is, 'Is it right to save a life for the sake of saving it, only to release it so it can infect others who may not be so lucky to be rescued?' 

Renee


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

pigeonperfect said:


> I live in NJ and have been a wildlife rehabber for many years. I am one of the few who will deal with pigeons.
> 
> Recovery can happen, however, the bird will always carry the virus and potentially spread it, which is why you've gotten the advice from rehabbers that you have. Pigeons, being flock birds, can pass the virus onto others even if they show no signs of the virus being active. I guess the question is, 'Is it right to save a life for the sake of saving it, only to release it so it can infect others who may not be so lucky to be rescued?'
> 
> Renee


For the most part, we don't recommend these birds be released.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Once they have had the virus and stop shedding it (see the other thread on PMV pigeon) they will not be contagious. 

Those which, I'd agree, are a potential threat are the birds which get the virus but in who the neurological symptoms are so slight (if present at all) as to enable them to function normally while the virus is still active, and be misdiagnosed. But they would probably only rarely if ever come to the notice of a rescuer anyway.

John


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## pigeonperfect (May 7, 2007)

I don't release infected pigeons either for the sake of the healthy ones out in the wild. As rehabbers, we look beyond the individual we are caring for, like in a case of PMV. Disease can spread so quickly, even wiping out entire flocks of birds. In my opinion, and I adore pigeons, releasing one for the sake of it, is not worth exposing another risk to the healthy ones. 

Renee


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Charis said:


> For the most part, we don't recommend these birds be released.


Absolutely .. which is why we have such a motley crew of PMV-ites pretty much running the aviary (and two more waiting to go in).

John


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*What about vitamin B deficiency?*



sandt said:


> Hello everyone,
> this is my first post here. We rescued a pigeon (for the first time)that has the same symptoms as Sarahttt has described-in particular the neck twisting and the head seeming at times to be turned completely upside down while the body is standing normally. When the pigeon sleeps it's head seems to be drooped to one side.
> I read about PMV on this very website and was encouraged to learn that if it is PMV there is a good chance of recovery if the pigeon is given the right conditions.
> We called a Wildlife Centre here in Toronto to get more information and we were told that if the bird has PMV there is no chance of recovery because the disease causes the degeneration of the lining of the brain.
> ...


Has anyone here seen a bird with a vitamin B deficiency? The symptoms are exactly the same as for PMV. Head tremors, turning the head upside down, inabilty to fly or flying backwards and a general loss of muscular control and equilibrium.

I treated several birds for this over the years and it is extremely simple. You just feed them a brewers yeast tablet once a day for two or three days and they are fine. It's been so long since I've had a bird like this that I cannot remember the dosage or tablet size but I think 500mg was what mine were. I will try to find the old bottle and try to get this information for everyone. It works so well, it appears miraculous and it is so simple.

I think that the only way to properly diagnose PMV would be by some sort of lab test (I don't know if they do a fecal or blood test but I'm sure plenty here can answer that). I have never had a bird with PMV and have only read about it.

Giving any bird that is merely suspected of PMV some brewers yeast tabs for a couple of days is certainly not going to hurt and even if it has PMV, the vitamin B is going to help (not cure PMV however).

Vitamin B deficiency is caused by rodents being around the birds and either contaminating their feed or just eating the germ from seeds and depleting the vitamin B. Many lofts and many areas where pigeons congregate will have rodent interractions, especially during cold months.

I would urge anyone who has a bird which presents these symptoms to try the brewers yeast tabs to see what happens. Certainly, isolate the bird. Even if it's a simple vitamin B deficiency, it should be isolated for it's own protection as it is quite defenseless against anything.

Does anyone have experience with this? I can't imagine that any long time pigeon keepers have not seen this.

Bill


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Bill, that is a most interesting observation on the vitamin deficiency symptoms. I have never read of that similarity with PMV.

Brewers Yeast is certainly supposed to be good for the human nervous system, and I have heard of it being given to pigeons. I have a feeling that some time in the past we had tried it.

I would expect that given a week or so of isolation with a good, all round diet containing the necessary vitamins, a pigeon with that deficiency should show definite signs of improvement. I guess the extra B vits speed that process.

Unfortunately, we have none who have lost the neurological symptoms in so short a time as to cast doubt on whether they had PMV or not and, with the obvious expense of getting tests done for every suspect bid we take in, I think it's the time factor which confirms the diagnosis. 

John


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I am rather surprised by this*



John_D said:


> Bill, that is a most interesting observation on the vitamin deficiency symptoms. I have never read of that similarity with PMV.
> 
> Brewers Yeast is certainly supposed to be good for the human nervous system, and I have heard of it being given to pigeons. I have a feeling that some time in the past we had tried it.
> 
> ...


This isn't anything that I discovered. I had a bird like this back in the 70's and I called Clair Hetland, who used to own Foys Pigeon Supply. He was the one who told me about the vitamin B deificiencies, why they occur and how to remedy the situation.

Over the years, with having pigeons in large barns and outbuildings, my lofts often were not rodent proof and I did have maybe 4 or 5 birds (out of thousands) that would have this situation and they were all cured in a few days which truly appeared miraculous.

I bought a large collection of German Toy pigeons from an attorney, who had the nicest pigeon loft that I have ever visited. The birds origianally came from Dr. Len Hummel and were outstanding quality. Along with his birds, the nest fronts and his meds was a bottle of brewers yeast tablets. I can only assume that he knew this remedy as well.

I absolutely would urge anyone to try this remedy for a bird that exhibits the symptoms of PMV as they are exactly the same. It even makes me wonder if they are the same or if simple vitamin B is a cure for PMV, which seems unlikely as it is said to be a virus. I would certainly isolate the bird but a 3 day treatment of vitamin B is not going to hurt a bird even with PMV and would likely help it as well.

Bill


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*B Complex-Brewers Yeast*



jbangelfish said:


> I absolutely would urge anyone to try this remedy for a bird that exhibits the symptoms of PMV as they are exactly the same. It even makes me wonder if they are the same or if simple vitamin B is a cure for PMV, which seems unlikely as it is said to be a virus. I would certainly isolate the bird but a 3 day treatment of vitamin B is not going to hurt a bird even with PMV and would likely help it as well.
> Bill


Vitamin B Complex is considered the "nerve and energy" vitamin. It would make sense that a lack of it would display the same symptoms as PMV. PMV is such an overload on the system that is burns up all the B vitamins and the rest are secreted in the poop, as it is water solluble vitamin. 

It's already on my list of supportive measures, in the NATURAL HEALING thread in the RESOURCE forum, under PMV. I went back and bold printed it for everyone.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10568

We recommend to always follow up with a dose of probiotics.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Thank you Treesa*



Trees Gray said:


> Vitamin B Complex is considered the "nerve and energy" vitamin. It would make sense that a lack of it would display the same symptoms as PMV. PMV is such an overload on the system that is burns up all the B vitamins and the rest are secreted in the poop, as it is water solluble vitamin.
> 
> It's already on my list of supportive measures, in the NATURAL HEALING thread in the RESOURCE forum, under PMV. I went back and bold printed it for everyone.
> 
> ...


I have read quite a few threads about the PMV symptoms and felt compelled to put in my 2 cents as I've seen these symptoms a few times and cured them very quickly, thanks to Clair. Clair was a genius and a pigeon breeder.

I just want people to try this simple remedy as it won't hurt anything and I worry about the misdiagnosis of PMV. We are most likely to encounter the vitamin B deficiency after the cold winter months when the mice move in.

I also wondered why it never got any mention.

Bill


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