# Same sex nestmates best breeders/racers?



## Arrowhead loft EAST (Dec 27, 2013)

I have been flying pigeons for just a couple years now, but have been around them most of my life. In the short time I have actually been flying pigeons, I have kept very good notes with the pigeon program I use. About 90% of my best breeders and racers have been either same sex nest mates (two hens or cocks same nest of course), or the product of a hen or cock that is a same sex bird. I haven't been flying long enough to know if this is just coincidence or the norm. Any thoughts? I would love to know if this could used as another tool in my tool box when mating birds and deciding which birds should make the race team. Thanks for any input.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I use same sex as one selection criteria when selecting breeders. Do not discount the other sex though. A good pair usually has a few of the other sex that also breed or race well. I have also found that sometimes the weaker sex will skip a generation and their offspring will be good breeders. But all in all I will select a cock for breeding if his brother breeds me good birds and vice versa. I have 6 cocks off one of my pair that have all bred me a winning bird. Only one of their hens. I will also try and emulate winning pair pairings. Pair same sex siblings. Not always successful, but at least it gives you something to go by. I have seen correlation with Father-daughter-son lineage when selecting. I had a grandson of Ikon at one time. He was off his daughter. Ikon-Daughter-grandson. He bred me some good birds. Sex linkage is a ways down my list though.


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## Arrowhead loft EAST (Dec 27, 2013)

good info thanks!


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I have been reading up on different breeding methods and have studied some of the basic genetic information available on pigeons. It is a fact that a female cannot pass her sex linked genes to daughters ,only her sons. On the other hand a cock can pass his sex genes to both sons and daughters . With this information and a bit of reading you can see how this information could be helpful in building your own family . This is the reason many champions will use one cock as a stud and only bring in unrelated hens to cross into their families . If you continue to bring unrelated cocks into your breeding your will have a loft full of cross breeds which makes it hard to establish a family of your own. If you use the best sons of your stud sire for breeding and cross your best cocks daughters and granddaughter back to him, the original stud you will build a more consistence line or family of birds. You can however bring in unrelated champion hens to mate to your male dominated line with no problems At least that's what I've read.


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## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I'm glad you posted Eric. Other then color, what other sex linked genes are there?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

That is a very good question John and off the top of my head I couldn't tell you one characteristics which is inherited alone but I will say that the genes on any one chromosome are all inherited together that's why they are called LINKED . 

I can tell you a little story about a guy that bought a brother of a champion cock. He took his prize bird home and started breeding from him. To his dismay the new cock wouldn't bring a single piece of straw to his nest, so the guy returned to the fancier who sold him the cock and he asked him if his champion builds a good nest. Puzzled the fancier said he really didn't know so he said go have a look in the loft. After looking at the nest box of the champion cock the new owner was really disappointed because the nest was plumb full of straw and he surmised that he had bought a dud that didn't even inherit the gene for nest building let alone any other good characteristic like his champion brother. Walking away from the loft , head down very dismayed at the same time the loft owners wife was heading to the loft and asked the man what was bothering him . He told her about the nest and she laughed and replied by saying oh no that lazy lump doesn't contribute a single piece of straw his Hen does it all by herself. Rubbing his hands together with glee because the new owner now expected to fine there were lots of other favorable genes on the same chromosome.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

John there is some interesting stuff at : learn.genetics.utah.edu 

They even have a game you can play on genetics and inheritance in Pigeons.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I found some information that may shed some light on the subject of sex linkage and why some believe it's important when building a family. Two words first Genotype = what we don't see on the inside . Phenotype = what we see on the outside including pattern and color. In humans the chromosomes are XY but in pigeons they are ZW. The male carries 2 copies of the Z chromosomes and contributes either copy to his young. On the other hand the female carries only one Z and one W chromosome . She will always give her W copy to her daughters and her Z copy to her sons. As far as we know there are no known genes located in the W. With that said all babies born from a mating will be ZZ cocks and ZW hens. Now knowing this it seams much easier to build around a single male than a female pigeon because the hens will carry either copy of the fathers Z . Now mate that hen to a unrelated cock with 2 different Z chromosomes it doesn't take very many generation to completely get away from the original .


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

I have never learned much about the genetics and ZZ / W chromosomes. I have many things I look at and look for in a breeder. A lot of it has been self learned over the years and I would have to classify it as Stock Sense.

I starting back into the sport in 2008 from there breeding and crossing form the best of that team. I have seen a change in my loft over the years. In my selection of breeders for 2009, 10 and 11 I had more cocks then hens selected as breeding quality. In 2012 my selection of breeding quality cocks and hens were almost even. Starting in 2013 my selection of breeding quality birds became more and more uneven. Quality hens to cocks increasing each year. This 2015 breeder selection (including the un-flown YBs) was more than 2 to 1 with a total of 15 breeding quality hens and only 7 cocks.

I bought back two top breeding cocks I had sold and now have 9 breeding pairs in the loft. I do not claim to know it all but what I am doing in the breeding loft is working. In my opinion my loft is producing more quality breeding hens than quality breeding cocks.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

ACE , I never said that the hens are not important I was trying to explain the reason why some pairs will only produce good racers half the time. We have all experienced this to a degree where you have a pair of breeders and lets say that they, for example are a BC cock and a BB hen . I have a pair just like this and when it comes to the BB babies I get better breeders than races on the other side, the BC babies which mainly are cocks are better racers. I have been reading and studying books and methods to try to solve this mystery for myself. I'm not now or ever going to have your stock sense but I still believe that for myself there are better ways to build a family of consistence birds by studying pedigrees and what the " strain makers " past and present have accomplished . 

The rules of inheritance are facts except for a mutant gene which can pop up occasional . The rules of nature is diversity just the opposite of what I am looking for in my loft . I would prefer to have a loft full of clones or at least a family where even I can see similar traits and performance ability .


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I wanted to add that it is possible to build a family around a hen its just easier for most to manage a family based on a foundation cock. When I refer to a family I'm talking a closely related family or inbred . This reminds me of a passage in a book I read, " For example , a pedigree record is comparatively useless to you unless you know how to identify the POWER that dominates the pedigree and consequently rules the family. You must be able to recognize the LINES of breeding that really matter and those that do not! - and detect where and how - also more pertinently WHY the vital cross was brought in . A pedigree should be a goldmine in which one is constantly turning up and digging out priceless nuggets."


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

When creating a family of birds 10 times more important then the pedigrees of birds you bring in are the records you keep of the birds you create from them. Keep records and charts on everything because you are in full control of where that family goes from there.

Something this has brought to the front of my mind is the fact that UPC 620 produced hens that raced and great breeding hens. I never had a cock from her that did either for me. That is most likely why my loft is overflowing with good quality hens. Not a bad problem to have. Now this puts me on a new mission. To find the right breeding to produce the cocks to put with these hens.

I'll post one of the 2015 peds in a few so you can see why This is happening in my loft. The plus is "they say" the hens mature faster and make better young bird racers for the farther distance races.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

830 is son of Warren Smith's Duke of Earl and 1/2 brother to the 2007 Flamingo winner.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

It reads plain as day why your successful with the hens bred on this line because its a female dominant line, bred from LOFT QUEEN and the GR Dam is a half sister of her.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One of the reasons I sent Mark 1266 was that every brother of his that I bred from raised me top 10 birds. He is no exception. I think it key to find siblings that breed good offspring. This year his sister was my best breeding hen. Not always the case with that pairing. Great choice to pair with his 620 hens. Most of 1266s brothers have bred me multiple 1st place birds. I bred from 5 brothers and two sisters of 1266 this year. I sent 1266 to ACE and two other brothers to ABQ for Bio-security. Want the bloodline to be protected.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Don't have the per for 5453 and 5462 handy but I am sure they are off Kahuna blood. He is another key cock bird in the loft. Both his sons and daughters have bred winners. It is a great use of a few key hens to mix with successful birds from another successful family. 620 blood will be the next bloodline I bring into my family. Would love to have a generation or two down so I can bring your best 620xHill blood. This way I can keep the integrity of my family when crossing back in. Something I am looking for is when my birds fly well for others they breed them to their best they are successful and I bring that cross back in. 

When someone develops a good family those key offspring are good foundation birds. The have done the work for you. 1266 is one of those birds. I have tested his siblings for 10 years before knowing he will most likely be a good breeder. I am not surprised he clicked.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I would not hesitate to take a cock off of Loft Queen. Put him with a hen off my Maverick futurity winner. Two what I would call sex linked for performance birds. Odds are the pairing would hit.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Instead of hijacking this thread I'll start a new thread on this.


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