# First release didn't go so well...



## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Well, I opted to release the birds tonight. So far it's just about dark and only 3 returned. So, I guess I'll see what morning brings. I did see 2 birds roosting in a near by pine tree just as sun was setting. I am going to leave the trap open until it is completely dark. If they aren't in by then, maybe in the morning they will be hungry enough to come in.

What are everyone’s thoughts to this?


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi John,
They will probably be in tomorrow morn.. You might lose a few cause of obtaining them from another breeder after getting a little wing strong, but with Fresno/Calif. landing board trap set up like you have they will know where they are & come home. I have used the same type of landing board as you have for so many yrs. & it made settleing birds so easy. I do my 1st releases in the morn. & like it better, but for many decades I had to settle in the eve. because of having to be at work at 6:00am. so was forced to settle & fly 5 days of the week in the eve.. Good points on both sides though. I open the front of the Calif. board before letting them out on the Landing Board & let them go out on there own for 1hr. before I start calling them in & on a weekday as you did. Dogs, kids, etc. all have to stay away till I have them flying for several weeks. Then I try my best not to make there 1st releases with wind.... They will be hungry & thirsty in the morn.. This is the time I like having a Dropper. That's a bird that when we release it from a 100 ft. or so the Dropper bird goes straight to the landing board every time making the YB's feel better & follow the Dropper bird down to the board & in. All the Race Birds must live & be very used to Her. I always use a Hen Dropper. Usually we worry much when the birds are out over night, but find out that these worries were for not. They'll be in tomorrow & you'll never lose them again.... Happy


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks Happy,
I know they are in the general area. Right at dusk, there was 4 or 5 of them flying around over the loft, and then they just disappeared. I did see 2 of them land in a near by pine tree and didn't see them fly out before dark.

I did manage to call the 3 in by blowing my whistle. The only problem was, I was standing on deck of the house when I blew it. The 3 birds landed on the deck and house roof. I then went back to the landing board and blew the whistle and called them in and they trapped like magic. I stood there for another 10 minutes or so and every time I blew the whistle, the other birds would fly overhead. 

I think it is first timer’s anxiety on my part but the birds did have all the neighbors standing in their yards looking to the sky, I could hear the ewwws and awwws... 
I also think I released them a little late in the evening expecting them to only fly for a few minutes. I release them at 7:30pm. So I think I learned something from that…

Again thanks for putting my mind at ease. I know I will be tossing and turning tonight and probably won’t get much sleep, though. 

I’ll give an update in the morning as soon as the sun comes up…


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Oh yes John, 7:30PM is much too late to fly birds that haven't been out, or for that matter even seasoned birds. Course you may live in the Northern States where it's light much longer, but Pigeons have a built in fear of night. The good thing is that they probably didn't go far & as I said before they won't want to stay out again, & you'll probably never lose them after ya get them back.... Any call you use all the time will work, but I anymore just say Come-on, Come-on in a Med. Voice carrying my Black bucket of feed & they know what to do. Pigeons hear & see very well, so no use wakeing up the neighborhood calling them. Cosistency is the Key for the birds & us. You will probably have to over feed tomorrow, & have to hold them in for a few more days to get back on a feed schedule, but thats the little things we learn as we go along..... Look for a post tomorrow with most in before Noon!! Hap


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

_*There is a fine line when feeding them and what they do when "confined" to an aviary and what they do when they realize they are "free" can sometimes be two VERY different things.*_


I said the above in an earlier post. They will be in this morning I betcha. They just got to learn and once they get it, then they will be fine as long as the feeding is right. Our birds do this to us every year. It's just part of young bird training. Being free is so new to them, but it must have been pretty cool for the neighbors to watch. Good luck and we'll all be waiting for a report.


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks Again Happy,
Yea, I kind of figured, after the fact, that 7:30 pm was too late to release the birds. I've been out side and opened the trap and I did see one fly over at about 6:15am. I blew the whistle a few times but that was the last I had seen any. 

So, I'll go back out and sit on the deck for a while to see if and how many will come back. I can say that I've learned a good deal over this ordeal. 

I'll keep you posted.


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Ok, I have one bird hanging around. It didn't trap yet but keeps flying around and landing on neighbors roofs and trees. Looks like it is trying to figure it out..


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Make that 2 birds hanging around. How can I get them to trap?


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Make that 3 birds. They are sitting in a tall pine tree behind the loft... 

I'm starting to find this exciting.... Dang birds just sit there and laugh at me when I blow the whistle. Ha Ha Ha...


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

If it makes you feel better my last 8 young on there first time out stayed 5 days on the roof before the finaly trapped in. The second time out they all trapped right back in. They will get hungry at some point don't sweat it if you can see them haning out it's a good thing


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

SB_doves said:


> If it makes you feel better my last 8 young on there first time out stayed 5 days on the roof before the finaly trapped in. The second time out they all trapped right back in. They will get hungry at some point don't sweat it if you can see them haning out it's a good thing


Dang birds, I'm getting the feeling all this worrying is for the "birds".....  

Yea, I'm just going to give it some time. At least I feel a little better knowing they are still in the area. 

It is definitely teaching me patience.....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> I'm starting to find this exciting.... Dang birds just sit there and laugh at me when I blow the whistle. Ha Ha Ha...



Boy do I know that feeling...............although "exciting" is not exactly what I would call it..... they'll come around evetually. As long as you can see them and they can see the loft, you're good.


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> Boy do I know that feeling...............although "exciting" is not exactly what I would call it..... they'll come around evetually. As long as you can see them and they can see the loft, you're good.


They are getting closer, now on top of our house roof. Yea, I think you are right, I think another word other than exciting would have been more appropriate.... Maybe the word “adrenaline rush” or “ freaking frustrating” would have been a better word.

I feel like I’m punishing the birds that did trap in last night because I have the trap set and they can’t get to the aviary… I am thinking about opening the next section for the “rebellious” birds to come in to, when they feel like it I guess, and letting the “good” birds enjoy the sun from their aviary. 

What are you thoughts?


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Ok, we now have 4 birds sitting on the pine tree's behind the loft. I still have 2 that are unaccounted for. I'm starting to get the feeling they are calling each other to this pine tree so they can sit there, all together, and laugh at me while watching my antics to lure them in.... I bet they are saying, "look at that fool, he's blowing that whistle, putting that feed out, watching us with those binoculars and it's the funniest dang thing I ever did see, what do you think Louie?" 

I bet they are just having a grand ol' time at my expense.... Ha Ha Ha 

<grumble - grumble> DANG BIRDS.....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Ok now it is your turn to be in control. Here are my rules for late birds.
If it is a race let them in and feed them if they are late.
Loft flying:
I do not jepordize the flock because of late birds. I usually close the trap soon after the birds fly due to cats and varmints in the area. When they come back they will be let in. 
If it is same day they do not get fed until they fly again that evening or the next morning.
Next day birds and beyond I may give a bit of food. Here my theory is that I do not need to interfere with the flocks feeding schedule for late birds. Those birds in your tree when they come in, give them just a bit of food if it has been more than two days. If they are on the landing board call them in with a bit of food. Keep them hungry. That evening or next morning put them out again. If they go up to the tree, fly or sit on the loft give them a bit of time and call them in. 
After the first time of staying out or sitting on wires etc. If there is not food when they get in approx 15 min they do not eat. I try and fly morning and night. This way they fly before they eat. They will soon get the picture. 
You will be able to tell if the bird is famined or injured when they come in. 
I remember the day when I felt sorry for the late birds and fed them and pampered them. They were late again and again. Now when I have a late bird I go out and look on the landing board and there they are, begging to get in. They come in and if there is any food in the trough they eat, if not they wait until the next scheduled feeding. They are usually the first one to trap the next time out. I started with 20 young birds and still have 20. A handful have stayed out a night or two. Stick to your guns and find a system. This one works for me. They are like kids and dogs. You have to let them know who is boss and you have to be consistent. The only bird I will feed late is "Ugly" He is a Van Reet Cross, who will regularly fly for two hours a session. I will hand feed him when he comes in.
Randy Hill


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks Randy,
It sure makes sense what you are saying... I need to be in control, and I thought I was until I opened the loft last night....  Since my last post about the birds sitting in the tree laughing at me, I had closed the traps and let the 3 birds into the aviary, kind of as a lure. I have noticed in the last 20 minutes the rebellious birds are sitting within 30 yards of the loft now.  

I figured I would let them in when I was ready to let them in instead of when they were ready to come in.... The next oppertunity that they have to come in will be tonight at feeding time. I will open the traps up and blow my whistle. If they don't come in then that was there choice to stay out again overnight and without food. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what else can I do?

I figured since the flock was mostly rebellious I wouldn't treat the few that did what they were suppose to do any different than I had been since the day they came here. I put their bath pan out in the aviary for them, just as I do everyday. 

Thanks again for everyones help and I'll keep you posted...  

on a side note, this seems a bit like a chess match.... gotta be thinking ahead, I think....


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

First time out and a little wing strong They have to learn I would put some feed on the landing board and hope they come eat then trap. They still have not learned yet. Next time they wqill be smarter. You could even let the ones out that trapped last night might make the others hit the loft. The longer they are out You may loose some to cats hawks ect. At least they stayed so now you just got to get them loft trained on trapping back in.


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Lovebirds said:


> _*There is a fine line when feeding them and what they do when "confined" to an aviary and what they do when they realize they are "free" can sometimes be two VERY different things.*_
> 
> 
> I said the above in an earlier post. They will be in this morning I betcha. They just got to learn and once they get it, then they will be fine as long as the feeding is right. Our birds do this to us every year. It's just part of young bird training. Being free is so new to them, but it must have been pretty cool for the neighbors to watch. Good luck and we'll all be waiting for a report.


Sorry lovebirds,
I just now seen this post. We must have been posting about the same time this morning. Yea, it was pretty cool seeing the birds take flight. Then the worry set in after they all started flying in all directions and I couldn't see them any more. Then I started walking around the yard looking for the birds and then that when I noticed the neighbors all standing in their yards looking and pointing in the air. 

I think I kind of expected the birds to stay in a group, instead they were all flying by themselves in all directions. They were landing in trees, on powerlines, on houses, on swing-sets, fences, you name it and they were landing on it. I walked up to the street and looked up and down the street and I could see birds sitting on powerlines as far as I could see. 

I've read a few books but I didn't see this in there anywhere to help prepare myself for this. All in all though, it was great first experience with my own birds, other than the fact that they still are laughing at me...


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

re lee said:


> I would put some feed on the landing board and hope they come eat then trap. At least they stayed so now you just got to get them loft trained on trapping back in.


Very good point. I will go do that now....


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Ok, I think we are getting closer to getting them in. They are really flying a lot and coming real close to the landing board. Hopefully they will soon come on in...


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Are they able to see the birds that have already trapped? I have a tub of seeds with a transparent lid, my birds (which are already in) will spend ages pecking at the plastic trying to get the seeds. When those outside see them 'eating' they trap straight in. 

Good luck. I had exactly the same worries with my birds!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Randy.........I agree with you for the most part, but...........this WAS the first time out for these birds. Late birds can be a problem if you let them, but trapping in from a closed aviary and trapping in from being "free" out in the world for the VERY first time, is a little different. I don't know that I would punish these birds by holding feed from them. IMO..........if they come in now and DON"T get fed, they haven't learned a thing............I personally would feed them good.......keep them in tomorrow and cut their feed and then try this the next day. They do have to learn the system but they aren't going to learn it over night. This is just my feelings.........once these birds learn what is expected of them........THEN, you put your foot down and insist that they follow the program or go hungry, but they've got to know the program first...........


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> Sorry lovebirds,
> I just now seen this post. We must have been posting about the same time this morning. Yea, it was pretty cool seeing the birds take flight. Then the worry set in after they all started flying in all directions and I couldn't see them any more. Then I started walking around the yard looking for the birds and then that when I noticed the neighbors all standing in their yards looking and pointing in the air.
> 
> I think I kind of expected the birds to stay in a group, instead they were all flying by themselves in all directions. They were landing in trees, on powerlines, on houses, on swing-sets, fences, you name it and they were landing on it. I walked up to the street and looked up and down the street and I could see birds sitting on powerlines as far as I could see.
> ...



Well, guess that's something that wasn't even discussed. For one thing.....MOST of the time, when you let the birds out the first time, unless something scares them, they don't usually fly.......they may hover and test their wings......so I think these birds you have are a little older and strong on the wing.........once they do decide to take off and fly, it takes a few times out to start flying as a flock. It's normal for them to go in a dozen different directions. But,, once you get these guys back in the loft,,, they'll be ok. Strong winged birds are the ones that you loose very easily because they can take off and fly so far before they realize they are lost and then it's to late. One other thing..........In this pigeon business, everyone has thier own way of doing things, and Randy has posted and I have posted and the last thing I want to do is confuse you.............hope we are not doing that....if we are, say so and I'll but out..........


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Having been raising whitetailed deer for many years, I understand each person has a different approach at doing things. Honestly, I am trying each and every suggestion that you folks post on here. Who knows, maybe one of them might work.... and they are better idea's than I would've been able to come up with ...  

Just an update, there are know 5 birds within 40 yards of the loft. That means only 1 bird is not accounted for. I have noticed throughout the day that the birds are starting to pair up. There are two flocks right now, a flock of 3 and a flock of two. The 2 birds are sitting on the neighbors roof, only about 30 feet from the landing board to the north. Problem is, the landing board is on the south side of the garage and they can't see it from the roof. The flock of three are to the west side of the loft and sitting on the other neighbors roof. Luckily I have some nice neighbors that haven't complained yet. I am a little reluctant to release the 3 birds that I do have as the majority of the birds are still out. I usually feed around 7:00PM so I'm hoping that I can get them excited enough to come in. I tried putting feed on the landing board and they just flew over it, but they did roost a lot closer to the loft after seeing the food, so I think it helped.

I have a good idea these birds know what they need to do, but they are just not ready to come in yet. They are all stretched out on the house roofs just asking for trouble...

I'll keep all of you updated and many thanks for all the help. I'll get em back in one of days, I hope.....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You know...........sometimes I will take my water jug and sit it up on the landing board. They are a lot thirstier than they are hungry, and they just might recognize it and come down for a drink. I don't put water in it........just sit the empty jug out. Once they get in the aviary, they might trap.........


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Now I have two birds sitting on the branches, right above the landing board. They are just sitting there cleaning themselves like they don't have a care in the world. 

I will try the empty water jug....


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

John, I know this is so frustrating for you but I am constantly checking in to see if your guys have trapped. It is like a little drama going on. They can be little devils can't they.  

Good luck.


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> John, I know this is so frustrating for you but I am constantly checking in to see if your guys have trapped. It is like a little drama going on. They can be little devils can't they.
> 
> Good luck.


Yea, it gets me going and I have to take an extra blood pressure pill every now and again. Just a few minutes ago all 5 birds were within 10 feet of the landing board. They were sitting on the neighbor’s garage roof just to the south of the loft. Man, I thought they were going to go for it and then they just took off again. 

I read something about keeping flight records, well here's mine.......  
I think after all this is said and done, it will be nice to reread it and kind of reminisce...


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

I just walked outside again and 3 birds are sitting on the aviary....  Maybe they will figure it out before dark. They only have another 35 minutes or so of daylight....


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

YAHOOOOOOO, 3 birds trapped.....  Now there are only 2 more out flying around somewhere. I had 6 out overnight and only seen 5 of them all day long. So I'm thinking one was lost. Now if I can just get these other two in before dark. 

Thanks everyone for all the help. I wouldn't have been able to get this far without all of your great advice....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Yippeee........glad you got some in. As hard a lesson as it is for them, you still worry, hoping they will survive the night out. At least you can be thankful that it's not pooring rain or storming. Good luck with the rest.....we are all on the edge of our seats...............


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John15530 said:


> YAHOOOOOOO, 3 birds trapped.....  Now there are only 2 more out flying around somewhere. I had 6 out overnight and only seen 5 of them all day long. So I'm thinking one was lost. Now if I can just get these other two in before dark.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the help. I wouldn't have been able to get this far without all of your great advice....


Don't fret the one that's not around I have had them show up days later on that first flight. It sounds like things are looking good for you


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks again everybody. It was quite the busy day now that I look back on it. Even though I was running around like a madman, it was somewhat enjoyable and a very good learning opportunity. 

I still have the 3 birds out, but I know 2 are in the area. I still have one that I didn't see at all today, but I'm not giving up on it, just yet. The birds are all snuggled up on there perches and look all nice and comfy, and glad to be home… 

So, what's everyone’s opinion on the next loft fly? Honestly, I'm ready to do it again tomorrow afternoon, like around 5:30 6:00 O’ clock but I don’t know if the birds are. I fed just a bit heavy tonight but I didn't overfeed. I am planning on a light feeding in the morning along with electrolytes and probios in the water. Do you folks think I’m pushing to hard or should I give it a few days? I don’t want to hurt the birds in any way but I feel they need to go out again to learn. I just don’t know how soon I should turn them back out…


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Lovebirds 
good point about them being first timers. I think I was really saying that I do not like to upset the rest of the team by feeding them out of schedule. If I put feed down everytime a late bird came in the whole bunch would be fat. I do go easy on the newbees. I have a few that like the wires. My team has been out for about a month or so. The wire sitters do not get fed. 
Another trick is to shake a coffie can full of a few corn kernals. I think this annoys the birds that are out just enough to fly down to the loft. I shake whisle and go in an out of the loft. I will hand feed a few birds, go out shake and whistle, go back in. I think it bugs them enough that they give up. A bird that is sunning itself does not want a crazy fancier shaking up his siesta. 
Good Luck.
Do not give up on the bird that you can not see. It may show up in a few days. 
Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> Thanks again everybody. It was quite the busy day now that I look back on it. Even though I was running around like a madman, it was somewhat enjoyable and a very good learning opportunity.
> 
> I still have the 3 birds out, but I know 2 are in the area. I still have one that I didn't see at all today, but I'm not giving up on it, just yet. The birds are all snuggled up on there perches and look all nice and comfy, and glad to be home…
> 
> So, what's everyone’s opinion on the next loft fly? Honestly, I'm ready to do it again tomorrow afternoon, like around 5:30 6:00 O’ clock but I don’t know if the birds are. I fed just a bit heavy tonight but I didn't overfeed. I am planning on a light feeding in the morning along with electrolytes and probios in the water. Do you folks think I’m pushing to hard or should I give it a few days? I don’t want to hurt the birds in any way but I feel they need to go out again to learn. I just don’t know how soon I should turn them back out…



I think that maybe getting them out again may be ok. maybe they are tired enough that they won't go far... also, if your other birds don't come in, letting these out could help bring them down and they could even pick up the one that's MIA...........will check in tonight..........gotta go meet some new pigeon flyers up in Lynchburg today. Good luck....


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I also agree with lovebirds. Get the ones that are in back out. The process is fresh in their mind. Make sure they are hungry. They may fly around and bait the other ones to the loft. The faster you get them on a routine the better. Be consistent and they will respond well. 
Randy


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would release the ones that trapped well Let them out agin they showed they were just a little more trained and better at the trapping Rest the late trappers in the loft for about 2 to 3 days while the others aer getting to fly. work those lat trappers on there trapping and being called for feed. Then let the late ones out after that by there self first to see how just those ones improved If they still do not trap after trying to call themin. Pet the othrs out wait then try calling them all back in. If youlet themout now they may do the same because they just did it The time out makes them remember the loft program. And where there supposed to trap. And beings they did not leave you could let themout in the morning so they can if they sit for a while remember befor dark to get back into the loft. Put them out hungry But you have youre thoughts on what to do


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks Everyone,
Well I've been out most of the day and I haven't seen a single bird all day long. I know there are still 3 birds out somewhere. 

I'm still gonna keep my eyes out and like Motel "6" says; "I'm gonna leave a light on for them". 

I fed a little light this morning and all the birds trapped to the whistle this morning. I changed up the feeding time to make sure they were not just coming to the sound of me going into the loft.

I am planning on loft flying again this evening and if all goes well, again in the morning.

I'll let you know how things go...


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

I let the birds out at 6:00PM. 3 stayed on the landing board and 3 took flight. The 3 stayed flocked up for about 20 minutes and then one of them trapped. The 3 that stayed on the landing board trapped with it as well. The 2 stayed out for about an hour and then one of them trapped.

The other bird stayed out and wouldn't trap. This same bird, the first night out, came in through the garage door and roosted on the roof rafters. I waited till after dark and caught it and put it back in the loft. I think I may have started something with this one as it came in throught the garage door again tonight and roosted on the same rafter. During the summer, I remove the windows from the garage door to allow a breeze to blow through. I did close the garage door tonight and the bird came in throught the window. I plan on putting a piece of plywood over the windows tomorrow morning. I don't want to put the glass back in because the bird might fly into it.

So far, I still have all 6 birds. I hadn't seen any of the other 3 all day.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

You may let your garage bird stay there and find his own way to the loft. you could also catch him and put him in the aviary or in a cage on the landing board open to the trap. He will most likely get hungry and eventually find his way to the loft. You may be feeding a bit too much if the birds are not trapping quickly. You are getting there. Give them a week and they will be a fine oiled machine. The young birds you raise off of these will be much easier to train. I introduce my youngbirds from the breeding section directly through the trap to the flying section. Put them in a cage on the board one time and they are trap trained. Use the can shake and whistle to call them in. Feed them by hand when I can and feed them utill the last bird goes to the drinker and then pull the food left over. Late birds wait utill the next feeding. Have more pearches than birds, Give them baths, brewers yeast and vitamins once a week, and talk to them. Some birds are like kids and want to please. I have about 5 birds that meet me at the door or come to me. I like to give them a bit of safflower I hand feed them a piece at a time. The others seem jellous and come over to investigate. When they like you they will trap for you, these are the good ones. Freddy hit a wire and walked home from the neighbors. I helped him over the fence. He remembers this, greets me every moring at the door. Just like teenagers, you sit up and wait for them to come home. Welcome to the wonderful world of pigeons. 
Randy Hill


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thanks Agian Randy,
I haven;t flown the birds last night as it was pretty hazy and temp was 88 degree's. I was going to fly this morning but after looking at the weather radar we have a storm moving through. Looks like tnight will be the night for a loft fly again.

I am having a blast with these birds. One of the birds figured out how to get back through the belgium trap so I had to modify it to keep the bird from teachiing the rest of the birds how to get back through it.

I do hand feed the birds as I like to get up close and personal with them. I have one that will follow me around. I just ordered more feed and I did order safflower. I also ordered more electrolights w/ vitamins and probios. 

I am looking to get more birds, but I am having a really hard time locating white ones. I spent all day yesturday calling around and looking on the I-net for birds with no luck. I had found plenty of old birds but I can't seem to locate any young birds that have not been flown. I will keep on looking and hopefully find some more birds.

I love having the birds and watching them fly. It's one of the coolest things I have done in a real long time.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm sure I will be asking more questions in the really near future....


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

John15530 said:


> Thanks Agian Randy,
> I haven;t flown the birds last night as it was pretty hazy and temp was 88 degree's. I was going to fly this morning but after looking at the weather radar we have a storm moving through. Looks like tnight will be the night for a loft fly again.
> 
> I am having a blast with these birds. One of the birds figured out how to get back through the belgium trap so I had to modify it to keep the bird from teachiing the rest of the birds how to get back through it.
> ...


You might want to get a few old birds for breeders Then you can raise your own for now. They would be prisoner birds But with say 6 pair You could raise a working number of whites in 1 season.


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John15530 said:


> Thanks Agian Randy,
> I haven;t flown the birds last night as it was pretty hazy and temp was 88 degree's. I was going to fly this morning but after looking at the weather radar we have a storm moving through. Looks like tnight will be the night for a loft fly again.
> 
> I am having a blast with these birds. One of the birds figured out how to get back through the belgium trap so I had to modify it to keep the bird from teachiing the rest of the birds how to get back through it.
> ...



Did you try Foy's??


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

No I didn't try foy's. I didn't even know foys sold birds. But after taking a better look at their site I now see that they do sell young birds. 

Man, if it would've been a snake, it would've bit me, the link to the birds at foy's I mean. I was always looking at feed and other stuff and didn't even see the pigeons link....  

Thanks for the tip


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

re lee said:


> You might want to get a few old birds for breeders Then you can raise your own for now. They would be prisoner birds But with say 6 pair You could raise a working number of whites in 1 season.


Yea, I was think about getting 3 sets of breeding pairs. I figured I would wait until this fall before I did though. I still have 12' of the back of our garge that I plan on making 1 more pen and 3 breeding pens in. This way I will be able to seperate the young birds and have the older birds seperated by sex. First I have to figure out how to sex the things before I can seperate them..


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

OK, now you really got me thinking...... 

How does the breeding of pigeons work and if I were to get breeding pairs now, how soon would they have little ones? 

I don't want to have them in a sweat factory but would like to breed them ethically, without running them into the ground...

Any help would be greatly appreciated..


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> OK, now you really got me thinking......
> 
> How does the breeding of pigeons work and if I were to get breeding pairs now, how soon would they have little ones?
> 
> ...



Well...........let's see if I can make this "sorta" concise........First of all, when you get new breeders, you need to keep them separated from your other birds for AT LEAST 30 days........6 weeks is better. Make sure they have been vaccinated for PMV and Paratyphoid and I would run them through some meds for cocci and canker and worm them. The LAST thing you want is breeders with health problems,,,,,,,it can only go down hill from there.. 
Once the birds are paired together, the hens should go down on eggs in about 10 days, sometimes it's sooner or it may be later, but 10 days is about the norm. The eggs will hatch 19 days after the FIRST egg is laid and the babies can be weaned anywhere from 25 to 30 days old. When the babies are around 16 to 18 days old, the hen will go down on another set of eggs. I personally do not like to let my breeders raise more then three rounds and I prefer only two rounds in a year. That's it in an "eggshell"  Of course there are other things to know but you can sort of get a time line of how many babies you could raise in a 3 month period out of 3 pairs of birds. That's if all the eggs hatch and all the babies live.........


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Ok, Now I see another interesting fact coming to the surface..... how many pens would I need for the different rounds of sqeakers? Can I just keep putting the young birds together, in the same pen or do I need multiple pens?

thanks for the info, I think maybe getting breeding pairs might be the way to go....


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John15530 said:


> No I didn't try foy's. I didn't even know foys sold birds. But after taking a better look at their site I now see that they do sell young birds.
> 
> Man, if it would've been a snake, it would've bit me, the link to the birds at foy's I mean. I was always looking at feed and other stuff and didn't even see the pigeons link....
> 
> Thanks for the tip


Talk to Jerry he even wrote the book White doves the color of money or something like that. I have over 20 of his birds very nice. You could almost drive there right? I think he is near you?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Well, I probably make this more complicated than it should be........my husband says I do that alot. 
Here's what you need, minimum...

1. Breeder loft with 2 sections. (unless you are not planning on separating the pairs after breeding. Most do, some don't, but it gives the hen a break)

2. A young bird loft.

3. An old bird loft with two sections, unless again, you're not going to separate the sexes.

Every year, your new young birds will become next years old birds and you don't want to put you newbies in with the older ones to try to trap train. So......you can see where this is going.......it really isn't as simple as building a loft or two, hatch babies and throw them in there..........


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You may also want to consider when you need to breed. See, your birds are for a release business, mine are for racing. My babies don't have to be ready to fly many miles until Aug or Sept of every year. I would suspect that most of you weddings would be in Apr., May and June so you may have to do things differently? Then there's the molt every year. I would assume that people don' take "scraggly" looking birds to be released. I guess a actual release business person could answer that best.........

ARE WE HAVING FUN YET???????????? LOL


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Lovedoves,
Ohh yea, I'm having fun....  

So, If I understand you correctly, I need at least 6 pens; 2 for breeding, 2 for young birds and 2 for old birds? So far I have 3 pens and it would be real easy to make 3 more with 2 of them for the breeding. Now here's the next question, how big of an area do I need for 3 breeding pairs? Is 2.5 sqft per bird enough?


SBDoves, 
I just talked with Jerry today about birds. I am planning a trip up to his place at the end of the week. He is only about an hour or so away. Again, thanks for the tip....


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> Lovedoves,
> Ohh yea, I'm having fun....
> 
> So, If I understand you correctly, I need at least 6 pens; 2 for breeding, 2 for young birds and 2 for old birds? So far I have 3 pens and it would be real easy to make 3 more with 2 of them for the breeding. Now here's the next question, how big of an area do I need for 3 breeding pairs? Is 2.5 sqft per bird enough?


Well, for breeding...........one section with nest boxes and one with just perches. The cocks will stay with the nest boxes and the hens with the perches unless they are breeding. The nest box section should be big enough to accomodate all breeding pairs so if you have 3 pair, big enough for 6 birds plus the babies, but they will be in the boxes.

For your OB's.......2 sections, one for cocks and one for hens. Perches in both are fine. If they are not separated, they will pair up and lay eggs, in the floor if that's the only place they can go. 

For your YB's........you only need one section, but if you have the room to build 2, that would be even better. Maybe a removeable partition so that you can have both. There's no reason to separate the sexes in YB's.

The rule of thumb is 2 cubic feet for each bird. Also, your nest boxes should be big enough to hold 2 nest bowls easily with room to spare.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Did you mention somewhere about having individual breeding pens??

Do you know about the pigeon auction sites??


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Yea, I think I mentioned that a few post back. Now after looking into the breeding aspect a little more, I really don't think that is necessary, right? 

I'm trying to learn and piece it all together. This all started by me getting a few birds just for a hobby and then the neighbor asked me about releasing them at her daughters wedding. Then another couple had called and asked if I could release birds for their wedding. So, I am trying to learn all I can so if it works out and other want birds released, I can at least have birds available. Bottom line to me having the birds is just a hobby. I enjoy breeding and raising white-tailed deer and the birds are just an escape from the lengthy process of breeding deer.

I am obsessed with line-breeding deer and I think with the birds I can learn from the breeding, as the turn around time is much, much faster. With the deer, it takes 3 years to see your results. 

I want to get started off on the right foot with raising pigeons. I do understand the importance of herd/flock health management and preventative measures such as vaccinations, worms and yes, even coccidiosis, but I have no real idea of proper ethics, housing, or management of the pigeons. With the deer, I write articles on herd health management, rearing, breeding and facility layouts. Pigeons are a whole new ball game for me and the picture is becoming clearer with everyones help.

I have learned more from just reading this forum than one can imagine. But looking back on my start in raising deer I was just a new guy and learning was so much fun. I really appreciate everyone’s help and I am learning a great deal from it, plus I'm have having a great time while doing so...

Thanks so much..


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

John15530 said:


> Yea, I think I mentioned that a few post back. Now after looking into the breeding aspect a little more, I really don't think that is necessary, right?
> but I have no real idea of proper ethics, housing, or management of the pigeons. Pigeons are a whole new ball game for me and the picture is becoming clearer with everyones help.


Not really, for what you are doing. Since we raise race birds, it's important to know for sure who the parents are sometimes and that just can't be in an open loft. 
Keeping pigeons is pretty simple really, start with healthy birds, give them good clean feed and water, give them a dry place to roost and do the yearly heath maintenance and you're on your way...........There is a big difference in just keeping a back yard flock and a racing team. You've picked the easier one..........


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you do wedding releases You would train your birds out Towards the realease. Now often you would have ample time ahead of the wedding date To do this. If they are just local or near general training would do. Might check the different threads on young bird train. As to tossing the birds


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, it wouldn't work for a "shotgun" wedding, then, huh? 

That's an interesting point that you make, Robert. The rehabbers get their fair share of wedding release type birds and you have to wonder if those folks bother to train them as you're suggesting. That would be the responsible way to do it.

Pidgey


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

You could most likely get away with three sections 
A breeding section-Also a Cock section when the pairs are separated
A Young bird sections-Would put the hens here in the off season
A Old bird flyer section-These birds would fly our wedding releases.
Here is how this would work. You use your old bird section for your wedding releases. When you are finished breeding two or three rounds of youngbirds you will need to put your breeders on fake eggs until the youngbirds are trap trained and flying well. Move the young birds to the old birds pen to fly, transfer the hens into the youngbird pen for the off season. If all your birds are trained to your loft you might be able to get by with two. Wait four sections. You need an old bird hen and cock section. You could aslo fly the birds to the nest and fly your breeders at weddings. I have not thought about your situation because I have racers. I use 4 sections. This in my opinion is not enough for racing. You could use removable dividers in your section and in the off season have a hen and cock section. You could fly them all for weddings. Just do not tell them that the two birds for the relase are of the same sex. This may work for those non-Republican approved weddings. I have even trained my youngbirds with 13 old birds this year due to lack of space and have not lost a bird yet. I would not add sections until your system needs them. I bet you will get much insite during your visit this weekend. Good Luck
Randy


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

*Hey John*

What's going on give us an update. Did you get all your birds back?


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Randy,
Thanks so much for all the information. It has the light bulb on above my head. My main concern is understanding the breeding and life cycles of the birds. Once I get that figured out then I think everything will fall in place. 
When is the breeding seaso for pigeons and how long does it last?

SB Doves,
I still have the 6 out of nine. Still haven't seen the other three since Friday. I still have the trap open on another pen so if they do come home. I ordered some meds and stuff just in case they come back in bad condition.

I have been loft flying the 6 birds every night and tonight they were gone about an hour before buzzing across the loft at about 100 mph. Scared the crap right out of me at how fast and how low they came in. Tomorrow morning I'm gong to give them their first morning flight. If all goes well, I plan on loft flying twice a day for the rest of the week. If the birds are gone for an hour each time by the end of the week, I plan on basket training next week and release the birds from just a 100' or so from the loft. Then if they get the idea, I'll start moving them out to farther distances. 

I'll keep you posted....

<EDIT ADDED>
I forgot to mention that tonight when the birds came in, I imagined being up there flying with them. When they came buzzing across the loft they looked like fighter jets and then as soon as they got past the loft, they banked off to the left and up into the air. It kind of reminded me of seeing fighter jets flying around and it looked pretty darn fun.....


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John15530 said:


> Randy,
> Thanks so much for all the information. It has the light bulb on above my head. My main concern is understanding the breeding and life cycles of the birds. Once I get that figured out then I think everything will fall in place.
> When is the breeding seaso for pigeons and how long does it last?
> 
> ...


John sounds like they are doing great once they are all grouping and tripping it's time to load them into a basket and to your first toss within site of the loft if you can.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I can only tell you what I do as far as breeding. Some things are different around the country. I breed around the climate and race schedule. We race end of September Through October due to hot summers. We also have fairly cold winters. Another thing to think about is that bands are not available until January if you are banding with AU bands. I think this is also true with the other organizations. 
I put my birds together on Valentines day. Any earlier and it is too cold. First eggs around the first of March. I plan on how many youngsters I want and pair up for that target. I wanted 40 youngbirds. So I used 12 pair of birds. I first was planning on two rounds of youngbirds 48 youngbirds if all hatch. Be realistic about how many birds will hatch. Some do not fill the eggs, some die in the shell. My success rate has been around a 90% hatch rate. So I should expect 43 youngbirds. Trainning will claim a few and so on. By the first race I want 30-35 youngbirds. This is a small team as far as most are concerned. It is easy to manage this many birds. 
My plans changed and I was able to take most of my second round 15 youngbirds to fly with two clubs in Albuquerque. So I bread 3 rounds of youngbirds. The last are in the nest now. I am cutting it close for races, but our first few are like training tosses anyway 75 miles. This give young members and busy members a brake from trainning demands. 
February 14th birds are put together- First Eggs first of March. Eggs Hatch 18 days from your second egg give or take a day or two. Mid April first round is weaned to young bird loft about 25-30 days depending on who you ask here. I wean when they drop to the ground and are eating and drinking. End of April second round of eggs. May second round hatches and lays round 3. June I deal with round three if I let them go there. Now I have all hatched out and I am begginning to wean round 3. With good management you can get your rounds to hatch withing a short window. I find that my first round is within a 10 day window. By the third round I am looking at about 20 days. 
I am limited space so now that some of my birds are laying their 4th round, I put fake eggs under them and pull the real eggs. This buys me time for all the birds to hatch and be weaned from my last round of youngsters. After all the youngbirds are off to the flyloft, I separate my oldbirds. Cocks stay in the breeding pen, hens to a section with perches only. I will put my cocks and hens from the breeding section who are loft trained into flying pens. This way I keep them exercised. I do have a few prisoners who stay cooped up. Good pairs will stay together bad pairs split up. I then will select out the bad and put the 24 best birds together for next year. 
This is a small window July-mid September to get the third round trained. I therefor fly twice a day and when all the birds are flying good together I start a trainning program the last two weeks of July. I do many short tosses working up to about 50 miles a week before the first race. The first race is 75 miles. A good warm up toss for the birds. 
Some put their birds together in December to have January babies. Here it is too cold. This may be a plan for those who want older babies by race season. My thoughts are that 3 rounds of youngbirds Is plenty. Do not want to stress your breeders. 
I hope this helps
Randy


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

One thing that I did not mention is selection and putting two birds together that you desire. If you are breeding for color this may be easier. You can just take the birds that have paired up from your fly team and pair them they way they choose. If you are breeding for conformation (desired pysical traits) or performance then you may want to select the mating. Here is where it becomes fun. If all your breeders are in one section, good luck with this. People have wrote books on the subject of mating two birds together. 
Individual breeding pens are the only sure fire way to control this 100%. 
How I deal with the issue is that I have two breeding pens. If I am going to separate previous pairs they are separated by these pens. To help with the headaches here, I will put a few pairs toghether from the youngbird team that have selected their own mates. I only do this if it is a desirable pairing by conformation and performance. I will usually get about 3 pairs this way. I will put about 4 or 5 pairs toghether that were toghether the last year. This leaves me about 4 pairs to fight with. Pairing birds is an art that not many have mastered. There are fanciers out there that are alot better than me and there are those that give up and go to individual breeding pens. If all you want is color and maybe a desired size and look, you have it much easier. You may have issues of inbreeding, but for the most part, if two birds look good and are white, let them go for it. 
Good luck
Randy


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

Thank you, thank you Randy,
That was a very informative post and I followed what you were saying the whole way through it.

Now I have an idea of when to breed and what I'm getting myself into.

Thanks again,
John


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John,

Hows it going? any updates??


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## John15530 (May 31, 2006)

*Going Great!!*

I now have finely tuned trapping birds......  I have dropped the birds out at ten miles and they usually arrive back to the loft at about the same time I do and they trapp as soon as they get back. No sitting around on the roof, they fly to the landing board and beat feet to get inside.

I did my first release on Sunday July 23rd. It was an outside wedding and the birds had every guest standing on their feet watching the birds circling. I released the birds at 1:50pm and left the wedding at around 2:05pm. I made it home at 2:20pm and the birds were home and trapped by 2:30pm. 

All in all, it is fun and I love watching the birds fly. I'm so fasinated with the fact that they know how to get home......


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

John15530 said:


> I now have finely tuned trapping birds......  I have dropped the birds out at ten miles and they usually arrive back to the loft at about the same time I do and they trapp as soon as they get back. No sitting around on the roof, they fly to the landing board and beat feet to get inside.
> 
> I did my first release on Sunday July 23rd. It was an outside wedding and the birds had every guest standing on their feet watching the birds circling. I released the birds at 1:50pm and left the wedding at around 2:05pm. I made it home at 2:20pm and the birds were home and trapped by 2:30pm.
> 
> All in all, it is fun and I love watching the birds fly. I'm so fasinated with the fact that they know how to get home......



Sounds like you doing great how many birds are you up to now? Did you end up getting more? Do you have a web site up?


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