# Red and yellow offsprings.. :D



## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

Hello everyone.. Haha..
Just wanted to show how my youngsters look likes with this pair..
Both trenton.. so sad totally forgot to band them...


Yellow mottle cock and black hen with one white spot on her..













Red and yellow offspring.. 










Update: August 4th 2012


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## pigeonlover123 (Jun 12, 2012)

I wonder how that happened! lol


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## pigeonlover123 (Jun 12, 2012)

Cute babies too


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

pigeonlover123 said:


> I wonder how that happened! lol


yeah, and i dont have any reds in my loft..
i was hoping for more mottles or splashes..
the first batch was chocolate indigo babies..
but now its red and yellow..


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

RamenNoodle said:


> yeah, and i dont have any reds in my loft..
> i was hoping for more mottles or splashes..
> the first batch was chocolate indigo babies..
> but now its red and yellow..


What do you mean you don't have any reds? You bred it off a yellow which is a dilute red!


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

ljb107 said:


> What do you mean you don't have any reds? You bred it off a yellow which is a dilute red!


Oh yeah thats right. LOL..
I totally forgot.. haha
But yeah was hoping for whites to come out.. but oh well..
Ill have to wait for the next batch,...


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

RamenNoodle said:


> Yeah, and i dont have any reds in my loft.


 Of course you have red, the yellow mottle is a dilute recessive red. The babies look like recessive red (will be a cock) and dilute recessive red (will be a hen). The spread mother must carry recessive red.


RamenNoodle said:


> i was hoping for more mottles or splashes.


 No one is exactly sure about the mottling gene that cause white in red birds, but it seems to be recessive (sometimes). What you should take into account though is that recessive reds often only moult into white. There might still be hope. My RR mottle showed only a little white on the shield at fledging, but after the first moult now has almost completely white rose-wings, and rather a lot of white in the neck and tail too. If this is not the case, just mate the father back to his daughter next year, and you'll definitely get more mottles like him.


RamenNoodle said:


> the first batch was chocolate indigo babies.


 I am not sure how the first batch from this pair could have been indigo. Unless the yellow is also an indigo. Yellow indigo birds would be rather unusual, since most people prefer to keep indigo and recessive red apart, because indigo can ruin the uniform recessive red expression.


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks rudoph.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I am not surprised that indigo is under the rec yellow. Trentons are not show birds so it doesn't matter how uniform the color is. All kinds of colors pop out of trentons. They are the rollers of the racer world.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I read up some more on the Trenton strain, and found a few pictures that look like the RR indigos as described in the genetics sources. Admittedly though some might just be unimproved RR (though those seem rather rare in the Trenton stock). Never expected that.

As a side enquiry, I was just wondering where did the indigo in our homers come from though? Of the Smerle, French Cumulet, English Carrier, Dragoon, and the Horseman I didn't know any of these had Indigo. I really should look for a book that chronicles pigeons and the history of where and how the breeds originated. Any suggestions?


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> I read up some more on the Trenton strain, and found a few pictures that look like the RR indigos as described in the genetics sources. Admittedly though some might just be unimproved RR (though those seem rather rare in the Trenton stock). Never expected that.
> 
> As a side enquiry, I was just wondering where did the indigo in our homers come from though? Of the Smerle, French Cumulet, English Carrier, Dragoon, and the Horseman I didn't know any of these had Indigo. I really should look for a book that chronicles pigeons and the history of where and how the breeds originated. Any suggestions?



hi , rudolph ,

R. huntley says .......

Indigo was first noted by Wendell M. Levi in 1936 at his Palmetto Pigeon Plant when he crossed a White Carneau cock with a blue racing homer hen. It was he who gave it the name Indigo. It's true origins are now believed to be from the Carneau line.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dublin boy said:


> hi , rudolph ,
> 
> R. huntley says .......
> 
> Indigo was first noted by Wendell M. Levi in 1936 at his Palmetto Pigeon Plant when he crossed a White Carneau cock with a blue racing homer hen. It was he who gave it the name Indigo. It's true origins are now believed to be from the Carneau line.


That is an unusual statement. I am not sure that it can be accurate for all indigo birds in the world, and even the White Carneau had to get it from somewhere. There are indigo homers all over the world, and all of them couldn't possibly have come from Levi's stock, could they? I always thought that the homers here in South Africa are [almost] exclusively of European origin, and there was probably very little importation of US birds. Also, indigo is rare in the fancy breeds here as well, and I rather doubt that anyone was doing crosses with Carneau over here either.


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

*update of the two red and yellow.. *


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> That is an unusual statement. I am not sure that it can be accurate for all indigo birds in the world, and even the White Carneau had to get it from somewhere. There are indigo homers all over the world, and all of them couldn't possibly have come from Levi's stock, could they? I always thought that the homers here in South Africa are [almost] exclusively of European origin, and there was probably very little importation of US birds. Also, indigo is rare in the fancy breeds here as well, and I rather doubt that anyone was doing crosses with Carneau over here either.


i dont think its that unusual , or that all indigos must have decended from levi stock .

it says it was first noted and named by levi .

i take it its simular to when reduced was discovered ,noted ,named ,and inheritance tested by a guy named carl in the 70s ,i guess there could be a whole history of indigo that may never be known .

i could be totally wrong , 
just my opinion .

brian .


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Your statement makes sense Brian.

It is just that certain mutations have a very specific source, or can at least be traced back to a single breed or area from whence it spread.

For instance the extreme-dilute/lemon/ecru which gene was discovered in homers but has been moved to other breeds. Similarly milky is from india (mookees / Lahores / Fantails) and it should be possible to trace milky homers back to an outcross to one of those breeds. For recently discovered mutations, it is fairly easy to track the movement of the mutation from one breed to another, but for old breeds and old mutations it is harder.

Indigo must be a rather old mutation, and as such ended up in different breeds through the years. Some middle eastern swift breeds are said to have the mutation too, though I have not seen any definitive proof.

I was just curious as to which breeds have had 'indigo' in their gene pool the longest. I was not asking who discovered it, or tested it first, or named it. I was asking where the mutation evolved (where it came from), and how it got into the homer gene pool. 

Like recessive opal, Indigo is almost ubiquitous in he homer gene pool and can be found in the US, Europe, Australia and Africa, though cross contamination of mixed breeds in all these countries in unlikely in my opinion. This means that the gene must have been passed into the gene pool from one of the ancestor breeds, but which one?


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## dublin boy (Jun 4, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Your statement makes sense Brian.
> 
> It is just that certain mutations have a very specific source, or can at least be traced back to a single breed or area from whence it spread.
> 
> ...



ah i get you now rudolph , i may have taken you up a bit wrong ,
your question is very intresting .

by the way ,indigo t-ch, and blue spread andalusion are one of my favs .


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dublin boy said:


> by the way ,indigo t-ch, and blue spread andalusion are one of my favs .


Andalusian is one of my favourites too, and I love T-patterns in any color. But sadly had an escape yesterday! My T-pattern blue indigo split for dilute and brown (B+D+//bd) prisoner got out somehow. Luckily I have lots of young from him already. Only had one T-pattern indigo youngster though, and I sold it last month! GRRR!!! I'm seriously running low on T-patterns and bars!


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## RamenNoodle (Apr 19, 2012)

all grown up


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## pigeon is fun (Sep 6, 2010)

RamenNoodle said:


> all grown up


Youre birds are looking good. I suggest to band your birds so at least they have an ID just in case they got lost. Just an opinion.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> Your statement makes sense Brian.
> 
> It is just that certain mutations have a very specific source, or can at least be traced back to a single breed or area from whence it spread.
> 
> ...


No telling. Carneau are from the France/Belgium area. There may be a common ancestor between the homer and the Carneau that got indigo started over there as it did over here. Also, the Belgians crossed in a breed called the Smyter which was a rich red tumbler looking pigeon with red eyes and no eye ceres. That rich red color may have had indigo underneath it just like the Carneau recessive red did. Then eventually the English and Belgian homer breeds were merged to create what we have today. Could have easily traveled to England and spread across Europe at that point. We've had quite a bit of time since the 1800's to get Indigo all over, since it is a dominant gene and could have been easily hidden by ash-red birds, whites, and rec reds. Not to mention there are the many homing breeds of the middle east and India. They have the most colorful pigeons in the world over there so indigo popping up in their homers would be easy I'm sure.
I have read somewhere that Libanons (Lebanons) were once crossed into the homers/carriers at some point and they may have also brought over indigo. No telling what colors the many Antwerp breeds and Smerles came in way back then, or the Cumulet. Or the Horseman, which is now extinct and hard to find any information on.
It would be very interesting to have a completely mapped out history of how the homers where made and when/where the colors came in. But people probably did not think about that or have as much interest in genetics then. Especially when their main purpose was trying to make reliable message carriers, and later faster birds for competition.


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