# Breeding questions



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey everyone! 


*1*. Since 2014 is not far away I'm interested in knowing when people are planning to begin breeding next year? 
*2.* How many breeding pairs are a "good" number? 
*3.* How many rounds of babies do you plan & recommend to get from each pair?
*4.* What approach do you take:
a. breeding early and getting a group of young birds early in the year but not doing much loft flying until later on
b. breeding early and flying early when you feel its a "good" day, losses to hawks is something that is a part of the sport
c. breeding later but not having a 3rd round of babies or a 3rd round of babies that are not as mature by the time races come along due to their late birth
*5.* If your area gets hit by hawks hard (and I mean HARD), how many young birds do you think someone should have on their team?
a. 30-40
b. 40-60
c. 60-80


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Revolution Lofts said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> 
> *1*. Since 2014 is not far away I'm interested in knowing when people are planning to begin breeding next year?
> ...


There ya go.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

1. February 15th, I have tried raising early youngsters two years in a row, I loose most in the settling process plus they don't perform better than my 2nd round, my 2nd and 3rd round always flies better than my first round.

2. I say have 10 pairs, because that number will increase next year, so have ten pairs this year, then maybe you'll stock a pair and buy a pair next year and you'll already be sitting at 14+ pair before you know it. You don't need a lot of pigeons to do well.

3. I breed two rounds from my breeders but three rounds from my super stars (that's only 2 pairs that I do three rounds for).

4. Neither, if bird hatches by May 10th it can still race competitively but I'll hold it back from any tough race (head wins, unfavorable winds for my loft location, long distances).

5. 40-50 pigeons, to be honest the more pigeons you have the more you loose. Luck is a part of it as well.


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## raftree3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I try to have my first round ready to wean the end of February. If you're sending birds out to OLRs they usually don't want them much before that and if you have them ready to go it will give you the chance to replace any that are lost early on. Have to agree with Sho on most every question. Tried it several ways but it boils down to his suggestions.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

See my replies below. Can't disagree with what anyone has said yet.



Revolution Lofts said:


> Hey everyone!
> 
> 
> *1*. Since 2014 is not far away I'm interested in knowing when people are planning to begin breeding next year?
> ...


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally speaking I have a lot of testing to do this coming year.
I have 10 pairs of white homers and 9 pairs of racing pigeons to test. All have been bought over a span of 2 years and I did some breeding but didn't fly many and didn't breed many especially the white homers. 

I'm aiming to pair them up last week of December in order to have mid-January babies. I hope to breed 3 rounds of ybs from each pair, maybe 4 from a few select pairs.

So I would technically have 60 white homer ybs and 54 racing pigeon ybs. But thats in a perfect world so I'm expecting around 100 ybs only. I have the loft space that can handle 75-80 ybs easy so I think I should be fine as far as space goes since I will only probably have 40-50 ybs in there at a time due to losses.

The white homers I plan to be a bit more lenient in training with as far as distances go. I'm suspecting some of them have mainly been bred for their colour so their homing instinct may need some time to become strong again.

However for 2015 breeding will increase to:

10 pairs of white homers (out of which 2 pairs will be grizzled birds used to improve homing ability + racing ability)

14 pairs of racing pigeons (including whoever passes the 2013 tests, 2013 ybs that perform exceptionally well, and new birds brought in to be tested). 

Eventually the 10 pairs of white homers will also be transformed to be more competitive and race-able birds. Slowly the training will become similar and eventually they will all get the same training. Through selective breeding I can improve the homing ability of the whites/grizzles. 

I need the high number of young birds where I live. Terrain is favorable for birds of prey and lots of them around. Weather isn't so bad for most of the young bird training season (March-September is pretty decent) but its mainly the hawks you lose birds to. My flying loft is located in an area with lots of feral pigeons so that will be interesting to see if the birds get hit as often or not.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

What's your Goal? Are you testing the birds in Races?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes I am. I mainly want to focus on young birds. I'm a member of a club that has races up to 300-350 kilometers in young birds. 

Youngest member in the club so I'm hoping to find a nice foundation of breeders to work upwards with. I have friend who is also a pigeon fancier and I may get him to do some further testing for me since he is a long haul semi-truck driver. Maybe something along the lines of 500km & 600km? (Keep in mind its kms and not miles so it just sounds like a lot). 

500 km = 310 miles 
600 km = 372 miles

That is a distance I believe young birds should be comfortably able to fly.
Birds that prove themselves without a doubt during the young bird season will be stocked.The birds which are questionable will be the birds that will be further tested. Keep in mind the distance is not too much to handle and everything including weather, health, diet, etc will be taken into account. 

Essentially I want to set a standard to which every bird is tested to before they are even considered to be a breeder. 

I'm thinking I may work on a level system where some birds are given higher ranks due to their superior performances. Kind of like a sports team where you have your elite superstars, secondary scoring, support players, rookies, veterans, etc. If each bird has a profile and its updated regularly you end up with almost having a scouting report to rely on similar to the one used by sports teams on draft days (drafting junior/college players).


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Our club goes up to 250 miles usually in YB season.

As for your scoring system, you could always go by the points on the side of the race sheet. Or if too low on the sheet, make your own point system just for your loft. Also average speeds and such are useful to look at.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Our club goes up to 250 miles usually in YB season.
> 
> As for your scoring system, you could always go by the points on the side of the race sheet. Or if too low on the sheet, make your own point system just for your loft. Also average speeds and such are useful to look at.


Do you think 400/450 miles is too hard for a young bird to accomplish even after the entire young bird season (lots of training/races)? 

I want to have the speed in the young birds but not at the cost of losing that good homing ability that is needed in the longer races.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

My new club has one 400 mile race at the end of the season but a lot of the flyers don't fly this one. It was added for the short enders. We do fly two 300s and two 350s before the 400.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Both the Albuquerque flew a 400 the same day with great results.
48/61 birds clocked with 24 day birds
118/147 birds clocked with 63 day birds

I think it depends on how tough the 400 mile race is for the birds. I am sure a few birds returned after the clocks were pulled. I had 12 birds in the race 11 returned.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I think its a good way to judge a bird better in order to see how they handle a longer distance after lots of training over a number of months. I intend to do a 400/450 mile test after the end of each season in September.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Some birds may handle it and some will not the first season. Some will need more maturity.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Just make sure what kind of birds you have, my President birds don't have the wing for it and would never make a 400 mile race.
Dave


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, it depends on the kind of birds you have. Faster maturing birds would be fine but some take longer to do any good at that distance.


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## Rod Hultquist (Aug 23, 2009)

1. Since 2014 is not far away I'm interested in knowing when people are planning to begin breeding next year? 
*Middle of January*
2. How many breeding pairs are a "good" number? 
*I like to have all of my young birds about the same age. So, 20 - 25 pair of breeders will raise around 40 - 50 young birds all the same age.*
3. How many rounds of babies do you plan & recommend to get from each pair?
*Just one round for the young bird team then some special pairings for breeders.*
4. What approach do you take:
a. breeding early and getting a group of young birds early in the year but not doing much loft flying until later on
b. breeding early and flying early when you feel its a "good" day, losses to hawks is something that is a part of the sport
c. breeding later but not having a 3rd round of babies or a 3rd round of babies that are not as mature by the time races come along due to their late birth
*I am more inclined to to do "a"*
5. If your area gets hit by hawks hard (and I mean HARD), how many young birds do you think someone should have on their team?
a. 30-40
b. 40-60
c. 60-80

*b. 40-60*_________


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Looking at the lofts that I got my birds from, some are from a guy that does well at the sprint races, some are from a guy that does well in young birds in general, and a few birds are some of the long distance blood (really big, long birds). 

So I have a good mixture of all distances and 400 miles should be good but I'll take it one step at a time and see how the team stands after the racing season next year. For all I know I may not have very many young birds left (since all my birds are untested by me at least). It can go either way.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

*The Positives*

I found out today that the club I'm in has no minimum or maximum number of birds that can be entered for each race. So essentially I can send 50 birds to a race if I wanted to. However, there is a clocking limit of 5 birds per participant on all races under 300. Does this mean only my top 5 birds would count in the race?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Revolution Lofts said:


> *The Positives*
> 
> I found out today that the club I'm in has no minimum or maximum number of birds that can be entered for each race. So essentially I can send 50 birds to a race if I wanted to. However, there is a clocking limit of 5 birds per participant on all races under 300. Does this mean only my top 5 birds would count in the race?


Yes. That makes it so the guy who can enter 50 birds can't dominate the sheet while the guy with only 10 or 20 gets pushed way down. Also keeps the sheet short and simple. Instead of having hundreds of late birds that don't even get any points taking up more paper to print haha. In our case, the clocks SHOULD put a merge file on the computer of all the clockings and then you just merge them all into one on winspeed. But ours won't do that. So we have to print out the clocks and enter the results into winspeed by hand. 5 birds each is about all we ever do just to keep it simple haha. But it is still a pain in the butt.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

http://nrrps.com/ASPX/CLUB/RaceSchedule.aspx


Looking from my clubs race schedule for young birds, do you think birds that are weaned early June, with 2 months of training (June and July) which includes trap training and everything will be ready for the July 27th 50 mile race?

I'm asking because I wish to get 3 rounds of babies from all of my breeders, and if I pair them up middle of December, I should have babies 1st and 2nd week of January. Going from that, February-March would get me my 2nd round of babies, and April-May would get me my 3rd round of babies. (2 months for each round because it includes the incubating time of the eggs and the growing and weaning stage of the bird). 

So my 3rd round would be ready to be trap trained beginning of June. They should pick up on trap training quick since there will already be lots of birds from the 1st and 2nd rounds that are already trap trained. I should also be able to push them a little harder than the first two rounds of young birds since they can just follow the other birds. The month of June would involve A LOT of following the older birds. This is to get them catched up and up to speed. 
However, in order to get the 3rd round race ready, the month of July would be a lot more strict training and training tosses will include smaller groups of birds in time intervals.

What do you all think of my plan for breeding 3 rounds of babies?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Since the first race is only 50 miles, I'd say go for it.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah I'm just going to try it out. 3 rounds will be a lot of work especially when I'm using individual pens for each pair. However testing 6 babies rather than 4 from a pair will help in decision making processes at the end of the season which I think is worth the extra work going long term.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, most one loft races are 300 mile or 350 mile events right?


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Revolution Lofts said:


> http://nrrps.com/ASPX/CLUB/RaceSchedule.aspx
> 
> 
> Looking from my clubs race schedule for young birds, do you think birds that are weaned early June, with 2 months of training (June and July) which includes trap training and everything will be ready for the July 27th 50 mile race?
> ...


I'm no expert and it might not be a big problem but your birds will be at very different stages of their molt with the vast difference in age. I've made the mistake of having early young and not getting them out soon enough and loosing some because of that . This past year we had a bad spring with late snow and I held my young inside too long I'd say I lost the first 8 banded birds born in December to fly away. I'm going to try early breeding again but I will have my young out flying in February this year, I don't care if there is 2 feet of snow and its below freezing they will be flying early.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> I'm no expert and it might not be a big problem but your birds will be at very different stages of their molt with the vast difference in age. I've made the mistake of having early young and not getting them out soon enough and loosing some because of that . This past year we had a bad spring with late snow and I held my young inside too long I'd say I lost the first 8 banded birds born in December to fly away. I'm going to try early breeding again but I will have my young out flying in February this year, I don't care if there is 2 feet of snow and its below freezing they will be flying early.


Yeah I have the same plan going forward. I want the birds out early, so while the other guys in my club are just starting to get eggs that are hatching, I already have them trap trained and maybe even road trained short distances. (If I pair my birds up 3rd week of December and get young birds hatching 2nd and 3rd weeks of January.)


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

The way my loft is set up right now, I could only basket by hand catching each bird.

How long do you think catching say roughly 60 young birds take? 3-4 baskets with 15-20 pigeons each.

I've never done it, just curious as to what the numbers look like from those that have. I'm assuming a good 15-20 minutes? 10-15 seconds per bird? Just trying to see how much time I would need to spend daily.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Revolution Lofts said:


> The way my loft is set up right now, I could only basket by hand catching each bird.
> 
> How long do you think catching say roughly 60 young birds take? 3-4 baskets with 15-20 pigeons each.
> 
> I've never done it, just curious as to what the numbers look like from those that have. I'm assuming a good 15-20 minutes? 10-15 seconds per bird? Just trying to see how much time I would need to spend daily.


If you basket before the sun comes up you can get it done in very short time. As fast as you can grab a bird from a perch. No chasing. Nicer for the birds, too.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm curious why breed early?


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Kastle Loft said:


> If you basket before the sun comes up you can get it done in very short time. As fast as you can grab a bird from a perch. No chasing. Nicer for the birds, too.


I set the loft up to be darkened at any time. It takes me 1 minute to darken the loft and less than 5 minutes to basket 78 birds...


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

I believe he states his reasons in his posts.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

ace in the hole said:


> I set the loft up to be darkened at any time. It takes me 1 minute to darken the loft and less than 5 minutes to basket 78 birds...


Ace thats a great idea. I might look into getting like a pull down shutter for the main window in the loft that brings in most of the light. That would definitely help!


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

First To Hatch said:


> I'm curious why breed early?


Mainly because of these 3 reasons: 

1. Lots of hawks in the area, I'm expecting to lose birds. I'd rather fly some of my own birds and see what they've got than get young birds from other fanciers to fly. Although, I may still end up doing this if the losses are extreme.

2. All of my breeders are untested, that is why I would rather test 6 babies than 4.

3. I'm not going to be flying old birds, so breeding early gives me something to do early on in the year other than scraping poop.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Revolution Lofts said:


> (If I pair my birds up 3rd week of December and get young birds hatching 2nd and 3rd weeks of January.)


I would pair up this week and kick the lights up to 14 hours a day on Thanksgiving and shoot for eggs laid on or near December 5, add 18 days till hatch puts your babies born around Dec 22, bands get handed out first of the year and your in business. You'll have the oldest possible young birds when races start and with a few changes along the way with the lights and your birds will be near or completely through the molt by race day, and I'm talking body and wing with no messing around pulling flights and crap like that. You will basically have a yearlings to race with because the full molt will change them into mature birds not just young birds.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> I would pair up this week and kick the lights up to 14 hours a day on Thanksgiving and shoot for eggs laid on or near December 5, add 18 days till hatch puts your babies born around Dec 22, bands get handed out first of the year and your in business. You'll have the oldest possible young birds when races start and with a few changes along the way with the lights and your birds will be near or completely through the molt by race day, and I'm talking body and wing with no messing around pulling flights and crap like that. You will basically have a yearlings to race with because the full molt will change them into mature birds not just young birds.


Thats a great idea! But I still have some work left to do on the young bird loft and the new breeding loft I built and I don't expect them to be finished by mid-December at the latest (really busy with university right now).

Either way I'll still be breeding earlier than most of the guys in the club. Complete underdog though due to zero untested pairs. Any results will be good results next year since I'll actually have some hard evidence to make decisions on unlike this year where I'm just going to pair up birds at random most likely.


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