# feeding a three week old pigeon?



## *Sally*

hello everybody 
first of all, sorry if my english is too bad...i dont live anywhere near usa or england, so i hope you'll forgive me.

anyway. 4 days ago, i found a young pigeon, i'd say (comparing him to the pics i've found on the web) he's about three weeks old...
this picture of the cutie was taken two days ago:










your forum was extremely helpful, but i still have some questions when it comes to feeding. my biggest concern is the quantity of food i give him - i have no idea whats the amount of food he should receive daily, and i dont really know how often to give it to him. so far i've kind of relied on my, as well as pigeon's, instinct - when he starts making noise everytime he sees me, and i havent fed him in a while, then its feeding time. also, when he refuses to open his beak few times in a row (though i'm gently pressing its sides), then i guess he's not hungry anymore.

i'm feeding him mixture of different sorts of seeds, grains and bread mixed with water and he seems fine so far. well, his poo looks fine anyway lol 
it was quite watery the first day, when i fed him too much water i guess. now its dark and...well, not very watery lol
generally, he seems healthy.

here's the amount of food i usually give him:










(i'll spare you the picture of his poo lol)

the yellow dish is about 7 cm in diameter. and i also give him water via this tiny syringe (bought a bigger one today lol).

i need to know if i'm doing something wrong so i'm hoping you'll help me here.

and two other things - 
1. he took a few sips of water all by himself today. well i did put the water dish right under his beak, but hey.. 
when it comes to food tho, he still has no idea what is that. i tried to 'introduce' him to pecking but i had no success so far.
is that a normal development for his age?

2. i have a pet cockatiel which is making the whole thing a bit more difficult and time consuming. i'm keeping them as far away from each other as possible, to prevent possible diseases and such. i'm still a bit scared here, tho.
this also means i'm not planning to keep the pigeon as a pet 
but we'll talk about it later i guess...

thanks in advance everyone 

gosh this is one long post lol


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## Charis

Please show us the poop. That would be helpful.
From the picture I can tell the bird is too thin and you need to feed him more. You can feed frozen corn and peas that have been defrosted. Open the mouth and pop them in one or two at a time. To give you an idea of how much...I would say 20-30 pieces of corn and peas at one feeding.
I think your English is great. Where are you located?


I'm sorry...I just noticed you said that is the amount you are feeding and that looks good. He probably should eat 3 times a day. Play with the food so he will get the idea, hopefully to start picking up seed on his own. I would skip the whole large sunflower seeds, if that is what is in the picture.


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## *Sally*

thanx for your reply. 
i'm currently located in sarajevo, bosnia and herzegovina, central europe.

defrosted corn and peas? ok i'll have that in mind... right now i have canned corn and peas, i suppose those are not suitable even if i wash off the can liquid? 

well the bird does look kind of smaller in the picture, but i dont doubt he should eat a bit more. 
when it comes to sunflower seeds, i dont feed him the entire seed, i peel off the crust, chop the inside and mix it with the rest of the food. 

this morning i fed him mixture of black lentils (this macrobiotic stuff i happen to have), sunflower seeds, sesame, (wheat) semolina, mixture of seeds for mid-sized birds and some crushed bird biscuit (the latter two were bought for my cockatiel, but he doesnt like em)...all of it mixed with some water... this is the food i usually give him... and some bread too.
i was thinking of cooking him some rice today, is that a good idea? i read somewhere on this forum that they should occasionally be given some rice and pasta.

btw i also fed him some dried cranberries a few days ago, i had no idea that these birds dont eat fruit.

here are some pics i took today. i'll take the picture of his poo later if neccesary.


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## pdpbison

Hi Sally,



You have a lovely little Pigeon there..!


Now, this 'Squeaker' will be glad to show you how well he can in fact eat and drink on his own, but he just needs your guidance and supervision.


To begin, gently guide his Beak into a small Cup of tepid ( that is, of Body Temperature, or just a little cooler than body temperature ) Water.

Use a Tea Cup or something whose height is about where his upper breat or almost neck would begin, so he does not have to lean very far to drink.


Just set the Cup close in front of him, and gently guide his Beak into it, using your finger tips, anddoing this fro in front of him...it maytake a few tries....but, be sure to keep your finger tips on the sides of his Beak so he can feel them there once he starts sipping and till he raises his Beak out( so be sensitive about this, you are gently 'guiding' his Beak into the Water, and not using force to keep it there or to hold it down) .


And, he will drink.


After a few days of this happenning off and on,he will drink when the cup of Water is presented, with no need of having his Beak guided.



For guiding him to peck and eat Seeds with your supervision - 


Get some Canary Seed or Finch Seed ( these are mixes of tiny whole Seeds )


Fill a 'Shot Glass' ( used for Whisky or other Liquor, being a small, deep, narrow Glass that holds one Ounce...) about 3/4ths full with the whole tiny Seeds.


Have him on your lap, on a towell, so he is stable, and, with one hand, curved around him possibly, steady the little Glass of Seeds, and, with the other Hand, gently guide his Beak into the Seeds, keeping your finger tips on his Beak, so he can feel them there...just like you learned to do with the Water.


If you moisten your finger tips in warm water immediately before, so they are damp, all the better.


This gesture invites the young Pigeon to 'gobble' the whole tiny Seeds, and your finger tips being on the sides of his Beak is important, because it will resemble what his parents Throat felt like, when they were feeding him...so...he will 'gobble' the tiny Seeds then, as if he were eating from his parent's Throat...and you need to keep yo9ur finger tips on the sides of his Beak for him to do so.


If this works then, let him have an Ounce or so of the tiny Seeds, and repeat again some hours later.


With this, very soon, he will begin 'gobbling' and half-pecking at the Seeds in the Shot Glass, and very soon after that short phase, he will be pecking them, and you can then introduce larger Seeds...

Such as small, whole, dried ( plain ) Corn, Peas, Oats, and so on.


He will not wish to eat canned foods.


And in his case, Cooked foods of any kind would offer nothing of any use compared to raw whole Grains of the right types for his Species and their Tastes.


Small dried Berrys of kinds people would eat, are fine for them, but unless it is a very small Berry, it should be cut up into small pieces....and no Berries having been processed with 'Sulfites' ( Sulphur Doxide usually, ) should be given.

Use only Organic or non-chemically processed dried Berrys.


He may not wish to eat them regardless...!


But some do, and they are good for Pigeons.



Do not bother cooking Rice for him - the value it would have nutritionally is not worth the room it would take up in his Crop.


Many people raise and keep Pigeons in your Country, and, you should see if anyone near you sells actual blends or mixes of 'Pigeon Seeds'.

These blends usually consist of several varietys of small dried Peas, small kernals of whole Corn, Oat Groats, White Safflower Seeds, Sorgum Seeds,Milo Seeds, Millet even...or combinations which would usually incluse at least several of these.


If you can not find actual 'Pigeon Seed Blends' then consider to get individual packages of the kinds of Seeds mentioned.


I personally have never found any Pigeons to wish to eat Lentils of any sort...even if possibly some would.


Fresh, 'sweet', hulled Kernals of Sunflower Seeds are excellent.


Flax Seed in small amounts is excellent.


Wheat is a Grain Pigeons seldom seem to like...same with Barley.


Oat Grains they like...

Buckwheat usually is liked...

Triticale is probably liked...


Wheat, no...they do not tend to like it.







Have fun..!


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 


This link goes to a few images showing a very nice method for doing the Shot Glass Seed 'gobble', or, to encourage them to be pecking...although in this case the Birds are much older and we were just doing some social 'pecking' to get him eating on his own after a seriuous illness.

If you wanted jut to encourage him to be pecking, ( skipping the Shot Glass 'gobble' phase) you can 'peck' with your crook'd index finger with the Seeds right in front of him...but, if he does begin pecking, offer praise and compiments of course with enthusiasm, but, do not let him eat more than an Ounce at a session, with say two such sessions spread over a day at most for now...and for the next week or so, if he starts pecking, only let him peck Seeds while you supervise, and or with you only alloting a given 'safe' amount ( while you pretend-peck with him ) , since they can over eat at this age in their new found enthusiasms...and they can stuff themselves too full and injure their Crops.



http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/lap-towell-cave/




Phil
l v


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## *Sally*

so much information..thank you, a lot  all of this will be extremely helpful 

i have to mention i fed him some defrosted peas and corn a few hours ago (Charis said to feed him 20-30 pcs, i fed him 28 exactly  ) and he wanted more!! this is a great sign i suppose, he obviously likes it!
well, the thing is, he kept on pipping (hope this is the right word) as if he was still hungry...and he hasnt stopped yet!
i have no idea what this means? should i increase the 'dosage'? or he wants something else?

oh, i have another question - how much hours of sleep does a pigeon need?
i know cockatiels need a lot of sleep, i remember reading somewhere that they need 12 hrs of sleep per day..

*edit* of course, i just remembered i have one more question.. how much water exactly does he need per day? i dont want to overdo here, as much as i dont want him to dehydrate..

thanx again


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## Charis

Phil...What is triticale?


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## Charis

I'm glad he liked the corn. Most of them go crazy for it. How did his crop feel after he ate? Maybe since he liked the corn you could try to get him to eat some on his own.
Since he's drinking on his own, just make sure he always has clean water and he will drink the amount he needs.


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## *Sally*

well, the crop was...kinda bigger than when i fed him the above mentioned mixture. unfortunately i have nothing else to compare it with.
all the food actually makes it inside his beak now, unlike before.

about an hour ago, i fed him corn and peas again. i added a few more (didnt want to overdo so i added maybe 4 extra), he ate everything and again wanted more!

when it comes to water, he does take a sip every now and then (when i put the water dish right under his beak), but not often enough. i don't think he really gets it yet. but he will soon


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## pdpbison

Charis said:


> Phil...What is triticale?




One of many Grains people eat - 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triticale


Probably not as good as the other 'usual' ones which Pigeons like, being as it is a sort of 'Wheat' in it's way...but I do not know what all is available over where Sally is...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 




You want to see about 45 poops every 24 hours.

Poops should be about the size of a regular 'Raisen' or about say 12 mm x 12 mm x 8 or 10 mm high thereabouts.


How much his Crop can comfortably hold, will depend on his Crop's history...but, it can and will grow to hold larger meals as he is used to eating and being fed more.


If feeding Canned or Frozen Corn or Peas, bear in mind that these are cooked foods, and will have low Nutrition in comparison to raw whole Grains ( or raw whole Corn or Peas ).


Canned or Frozen Corn or Peas will stay the same size in his Crop, and also contain a lot of moisture.

Dried Grains expand a good deal in their Crops, as they absorb Moisture, so once feeding ( or once he is eating ) dried, whole Grains, remember that any given quantity will expand to three or four times their Volume, in his Crop, once in his Crop and absorbing Water.


Once he is eating or being fed whole dried Grains, he will wish to drink a lot more Water.



One his age and size, would be fine to have from two to three "Dry Volumetric Ounces' of whole dry Seeds over 24 Hours, in however many small meals.


Metric wise, this would be about 64 millilitres I guess of dry volume. Or say 64 to 100-odd mLs over 24 hours, depending on the youngster and the Seed kinds and so on.


I have heard very good things about 'Garbanzo' Beans, also called 'Chick Peas'...just the plain Canned ones, which are cooked and relatively 'soft' of course.

One could boil up one's own dried ones also of course.


I understand young or convelesent Pigeons love them, especially in these contexts of hand feeding...where, one cuts up each Garbanzo into little bites and feeds these to the Pigeon.


However, all in all, no cooked foods ( regardless of how much the Pigeon likes them, none ) will have anywhere near the Nutritional values of "raw" ones as far these various Seeds or Grains are concerned...so, even though canned or frozen Corn or Peas may be convenient for you, they are a lot bulkier, and even bulk-for-bulk will be not one sixth the value of what dried whole Grains would be for Nutrition.


Plain, small size Kernal, old fashioned 'Pop Corn' is excellent. The kind in the Bag, and NOT the 'microwave' kind which will have flavorings and salt and other things aded to it.


Very good for 'Seed-Pops' ( our putting Seeds into their open Beak for them to swallow ) 


However, you had asked about his learning to eat on his own, and, the information I had posted, if it were followed, then the rest of all this becomes moot, since, with a little guidance and support, and appropriate Seed kinds for him to be learning with, he would be pecking and self feeding in a couple days if not in ten minutes, and eating the kinds of things he should be eating, and which would contain far higher orders of Nutrition for him to be growing up on.


When I get in any Baby Pigeon of two weeks of age or more, unless they are terribly frail and starved, I get them onto pecking and self feeding usually within a half hour of arriving here.


I also feed them 'Like-a-Baby' with Formulas, and so we have the best of both Worlds right away - me feeding the Nutritious formulas, and, them pecking and self feeding under my supervision.


Works out very well for everyone...and they enjoy all of it very much, and they are always very proud and enthused with their new found pecking skills.


Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


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## *Sally*

once again, thanks  i still have some questions, though



pdpbison said:


> You want to see about 45 poops every 24 hours.
> 
> Poops should be about the size of a regular 'Raisen' or about say 12 mm x 12 mm x 8 or 10 mm high thereabouts.


i will start counting today...i think his poops are a bit smaller and less in number..but i'm just starting to feed him like you advised, so i suppose things should get better in a day or so.. 



> One his age and size, would be fine to have from two to three "Dry Volumetric Ounces' of whole dry Seeds over 24 Hours, in however many small meals.


that would be two to three shot glasses filled with seeds, right? 
sorry for both bad english and the metric system 

i have read somewhere on this forum that it is not advisable to feed him if there is still some food in his crop from the previous feeding. i am unable to determine the quantity of food in his crop, so i stuck to 3 meals, with nothing in between..
so you say i can actually feed him as many times as i want (or he wants), as long as i don't cross the three ounce daily limit?

***
these are the seeds i have at home right now, the mixture of seeds for mid sized birds, do they look fine? (of course, i dont feed him the whole sunflower seeds, as i mentioned) 
the smaller ones look kind of like those on the pictures that explain the 'towel method' of feeding, so i suppose they're fine..?












> Plain, small size Kernal, old fashioned 'Pop Corn' is excellent. The kind in the Bag, and NOT the 'microwave' kind which will have flavorings and salt and other things aded to it.


i will buy these right away


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## Skyeking

The small seed are fine, however I would pick out most of the black sunflower seeds and the other long looking one until he is older and can eat on his own. The sunflower seeds are harder for young birds to digest. I would add some safflower seeds though.


Here are pictures of seeds that go in a pigeon mix, the safflower is closer to the bottom, it looks whiter then the picture.
http://www.purgrain.com/ingredients.htm

You can feed him as many times as he wants, as long as the crop is empty, that is curcial. That same pouch that protrudes after he has eaten should be flat and empty before each meal.

Thank you for taking such wonderful care of him. We really appreciate it.


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## *Sally*

thanx for your reply! 

i've mentioned i hadn't been giving him the whole sunflower seeds, just the inside, chopped to bits. you say it isnt good for them at all?
well, dealing with those seeds has been taking too much of my time anyway so i guess i will be happy to skip em for now!

***
@pdpbison - i've tried the towel method - without much success unfortunately. he did put his beak into the cup a few times, and even took some seeds once... but mostly he just refused to open his beak. i stopped trying after he started to look a bit depressed . i guess this takes some time... what can i say, i am no expert..

he really liked the (pop)corn tho! and again, i didnt know exactly how much i should give him! since this was corn, i didn't know if i should follow the 20-30 pcs rule or the ounce rule! and it seems that an ounce can hold much more than 30 pcs of popcorn!
just in case, i fed him the cca 30 pcs version, and offered him the shotglass again (seeds ofcourse, not tequilla ) - and he ate!! not much, but he did put his beak inside and swallow some seeds - three times! this made me totally happy!

*but here's the problem.*
again, he looked as if he wants more!
i feel like i have to apologise now for asking this question again, but this quantity thing is really bothering me.
i suppose i could have given him more but i was a bit scared :/ he is such a tiny thing..and those popcorns just look so...hard. 
i know i just dont have the tact yet..
so - do i follow the 20-30 pcs rule or the shotglass rule when i'm feeding him popcorn?

and the water! he can't really drink on his own, he does take a sip every now and then, but i still have to give him water through a syringe. 
and i'm not sure about the quantity here either! his poop was a bit watery after i fed him corn (nice size tho), so i suppose i've given him too much water along.

all of this sometimes looks like science to me, and i'm just beginning to learn.. 
i really appreciate your help so i have to thank you again! you are all being very kind


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## *Sally*

by the way... how old do you think this birdie really is?
i thought he was three weeks old when i found him (5 days ago), but now i believe i was wrong...he's a bit younger, don't you think?
he will probably be about that age in a day or two (if not already)..

*and some update*
the poop seems fine now. it's a bit bigger, the color is dark green with white, and it's quite solid.
i also believe i have managed to precisely locate the crop  (at least i think so! he's all fluffy and stuff ), but i have yet to learn how to differentiate _full_ from _half full_ and _empty_ from_ not completely empty_. 
we're making progress tho!

i went to feed him again a minute ago, felt his crop, and it seemed _not completely empty_ (more on the empty side tho) so i've decided to feed him in half an hour / an hour or so... also, he wasnt extremely squeaky like he usually gets when he's really hungry, so i suppose thats a good sign (that my judgement was right). ...or could it be he's just getting sleepy since it's 8 PM here in central europe..?


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## pdpbison

*Sally* said:


> thanx for your reply!
> 
> i've mentioned i hadn't been giving him the whole sunflower seeds, just the inside, chopped to bits. you say it isnt good for them at all?
> well, dealing with those seeds has been taking too much of my time anyway so i guess i will be happy to skip em for now!



Hi Sally, 



As Trees Grey mentioned a couple posts above, the Whole Sunflower Seeds which you show in the image, are too big for someone his age and size.


However, the inside 'Kernals' would be fine, if you either were to shell each Sunflower Seeds to get the Kernal out, or, just buy the plain Kernals.

If you buy the plain Kernals, make sure they are fresh, sweet tasting, and not dry and brittle. 



> ***
> @pdpbison - i've tried the towel method - without much success unfortunately. he did put his beak into the cup a few times, and even took some seeds once... but mostly he just refused to open his beak. i stopped trying after he started to look a bit depressed . i guess this takes some time... what can i say, i am no expert..



If you moisten your finger tips, and gently guide his Beak into a Tea Cup of "tepid" Water, he will drink. And you have to KEEP your finger tips on his Beak, as he Drinks, or it will not 'feel' right to him, and he will likely refuse TO drink.


After doing this a few times, so he understands the moist finger tips on his Beak being associated with "drinking" in this for him 'new' way, then, doing the same thing, having your slightly moist finger tips on his Beak, you can guide his Beak into a Shot Glass of tiny, whole, Seeds, and, KEEPING your Finger Tips on his Beak, he will 'gobble' - which is to say, he will open and close his beak in order to get the tiny whole Seeds into his mouth and be swallowing them.

If he understands and accepts your interest to feed him, he will 'squeak', and 'nuzzle' with his Beak, and show enthusiasm, flapping his Wings, dancing in circles, and variously being assertive about showing his interest to be fed.

If things are too frustrated for not being in his terms, he will decline to show these enthusiasms and gestures and assertions.



Just waiting for him to put his beak into the Seeds will not tend to work.



At his age, he wants to FEEL something like what it felt like when Momma and Poppa were feeding him - and, when they fed him, it was by him putting his Beak into their Throat, so he remembers and misses "that" feeling of warm-moist touch on his Beak sides and down by the 'root' of his Beak, which for him is part of the 'stimulation' cue and association for eating and drinking.


The Seeds which work best for this, for one of his age, and for eating out ofthe Shot Glass by 'gobbling', are very small Whole Seeds, such as Canary Seed or Finch Seed...since many 'gobblers' do not open their Beak very wide.


You can get these where you live...




> he really liked the (pop)corn tho! and again, i didnt know exactly how much i should give him! since this was corn, i didn't know if i should follow the 20-30 pcs rule or the ounce rule! and it seems that an ounce can hold much more than 30 pcs of popcorn!



Every young PIgeon is a little different, size wise, condition wise, history wise.

It is very hard for anyone of experience to say, at a distance, how much in volume, a specific young Pigeon someone else has, can safely eat in a day or at a given meal.

One develops a sense of judgement for each individual, and for how their Crop is holding the Foods, and how ( and with what speed ) their digestive system is handling the foods.

For now, if we were to say "3 dry Ounces over 24 Hours" Seed wise, he will be getting "enough" and if it seems that over a few days that he can gladly handle more, then his intake can be increased a little.

Youngsters who had not been eating much for a while, will not usually have the same elastic Crop capacity of one who has been.

Their Crops have tone and elasticity and adapt to the quantities they have been getting.

Yours probably was not getting much for a while there, so it is wisest to build up to what he can handle, rather than risking too much food too fast.



> just in case, i fed him the cca 30 pcs version, and offered him the shotglass again (seeds ofcourse, not tequilla ) - and he ate!! not much, but he did put his beak inside and swallow some seeds - three times! this made me totally happy!



Okay, good to hear.


He will also be able to learn from you about pecking if YOU 'peck' also, using your crook'd index finger tip.

For them, at this age, "food" has up till now been something between them and their parents - something they had never seen, but only 'felt'...they do not think of 'food' as something to see or somethihng to have to do anything about, other than putting their Beak into their parent's Throat.


So, he is confronting very different things now, and the better these things can include what he would find inviting, the better they will go for you both.


In Nature, Pigeons never see food, Seeds, or Water untill well after they are flying.




> *but here's the problem.*
> again, he looked as if he wants more!
> i feel like i have to apologise now for asking this question again, but this quantity thing is really bothering me.



They almost always act like they want 'more'...they will do this even when stuffed to full capacity.

It is just how they are...

Lol...


So, this in itself, is not a guide.



Remember that any dry Seeds will hydrate in his Crop, and swell...they will swell to three times their dry volume.

If he has too much dry Seeds in his Crop, they can swell too far and injure him when they hydrate.

This is why we do not want to fill them too full when feeding, or in our supervising them for their 'gobbleing' or 'pecking' of whole Dry Seeds.


His Crop is likely of a Capacity of a small to medium 'Lime' or small Lemon...so, if you imagine a Lime, imagine a volume of Seeds which will occupy about one third of it's volume.


Once he had that amount in him, it will take four or six hours to pass and empty, so, with four or five or six meals spread out over a long day and evening, one can keep that imaginary 'Lime' sixed Volume, hovering around the one-third 'full' mark, or a little more, and all will be well.


In Nature, the parents feed them small meals all day long, and into the evenings too, so the Baby is always approximately 'full' except for by Dawn, when the Baby is usually empty and his mom or dad or both fly off to find more food to eat, and, with which to feed their Babys.


People being unsure how much to feed, usually elect to wait till the Crop empties, before feeding again.


My own preference, is to emulate what their parents would do - to feed them small meals, quite a few times a day, so they are always at least partially 'full'.

Now, people feeding 'formula' have concerns which differ from when we arefeeding or having them eat Seeds.


It is mostly from people force feeding formulas, that the worries about letting the Crop empty come about.

It is not an issue with Seeds, but, in either event, one needs to watch the poops, and see that they are being made continuously and see how they look, in order to guage how his digestive system is handling the foods...and not to over-fill them, or let the youngster over-fill himself, with Seeds, since the Seeds swell when they Hydrate in their Crops.



>>>>> to be continued <<<<<


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## pdpbison

<<<<< continued >>>>>



Since every Pigeon Baby is a little different, and it is hard to guess size or Crop Capacity in an image, it is hard to say what quantity an individual could have per-day.

It is easy for me to see and judge if I have the Pigeon here, to judge how full their Crop is...and or how full it should be for their comfort and safety.




> i suppose i could have given him more but i was a bit scared :/ he is such a tiny thing..and those popcorns just look so...hard.



The Pop Corm hydrates in his Crop and gets soft...from there, it passes to his Stomach where it is digested...from there it passes to his Gizard, where it is ground into a fine paste...from there it passed to his Intestines, and the nutrients are assimilates and absorbed...and, finally, whatever is left, becomes a poop.


Hardness of Grains or Seeds is what their Species is used to, and, as you can see, the Seeds or Grains become soft very soon anyway, once in his Crop.


You can put a few Grains or Kernals of Corn into your mouth and suck on them a while and they will soften and become rubbery and are easily chewed.





> i know i just dont have the tact yet..
> so - do i follow the 20-30 pcs rule or the shotglass rule when i'm feeding him popcorn?




For over 24 Hours - say, divided into six meals - he can likely, safely, have one dry volume Ounce of Popcorn, and one dry ounce each of two other saller to medium size Seed kinds.

So, say, a total of three Dry Ounces per-day ( 'day' meaning however long you are awake, so, into the night is fine also ), spread out over several meals, of small to medium whole dry Seeds, should be fine.




> and the water! he can't really drink on his own, he does take a sip every now and then, but i still have to give him water through a syringe.



Yes...he needs you to guide him to drink, and, for you to guide him in a way which will work for him.


Trying to syringe Water is both very dangerous for him, and totally un-necessary.


Please, just review the simple method I described, of guiding him to drink.

It is fun, easy to do, and it works.


I have raised many hundreds of Baby or Young Pigeons, and never once, ever, have I not seen them drink happily in the first five minutes of being here, when I guided them to do so in the manner I have described to you.


They will not drink on their own at this age, or not untill they have progressed through a few steps of learning and experience, with our guidance.


After a few days of our correctly guiding them to drink, they will drink when we present the Tea Cup of "TEPID" Water without needing any continued assistance or guidance.

The Water has to be "Tepid", meaning, close to our own Body Temperature.

Which is how it had been for them when their parents cave them Water from their own Crops - "tepid".


If it is not Tepid, he will refuse it.


Trying to syring Water into his mouth or throat can very easily kill him.


Please, do not do that.





> and i'm not sure about the quantity here either! his poop was a bit watery after i fed him corn (nice size tho), so i suppose i've given him too much water along.
> 
> all of this sometimes looks like science to me, and i'm just beginning to learn..
> i really appreciate your help so i have to thank you again! you are all being very kind



No,it is not 'science', it is parenting with deference and considersation to the young Pigeon, in his or her terms.

It is working with him or her, in their terms of what works for them.


Trying to impose our terms on the Bird is very different than electing to do things in his or her terms...and will cause problems or frsutrations, instead of solving or avoiding them.

Not 'science', but rather, 'deference'...


The easiest, safest, and most successful ways of working with them, are the ways which they will understand and respond to in their terms.


His transition from having been fed by his Parents, to learning now to eat and drink, are new things for him, and he will do them splendidly, and he will do them right now, if you guide him in these ways I have described.




Best wishes..!


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

thanx again (and again and again!) for your reply, it was extremely helpful!
ofcourse, i forgot that the water has to be tepid!
but he took a few sips on his own again which is a good sign - he definitely gets it, so i'll forget abot the syringe (i had no idea i could have killed him this way )

***
i ment to continue this post after the second overtime, but unfortunately we lost to turkey in the european soccer championship quarterfinals (via penalties!) so i am a bit nervous now 
(im actually croatian)
i think i'll go and finally have a heart attack now
the worst thing is, i actually hate soccer  for a reason


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 


You are welcome..!


There are lots of 'details' in all this...


Seemingly little things make big differences...


Water should be 'Tepid' for certainly the first several days or a week, or depending on the age of the youngster...

Once he is around three weeks of age, the Water can gradually be offered a little cooler and cooler till it is just room temperature, and he will accept it just fine.



Let him play, explore, perch or do whatever he likes as much as you can.


Normally, their life untill they fly, is spent on a high ledge of some sort, and they understand very well to stay put when on a higher platform of some kind.


They hate and are very uncomfortable to be on the ground or on low places.

So, feeding, offering Water and so on should all be on your lap, or on a Table top.


So, keep him on a small Table Top, on a flat towel, and if you like, set a small Box on it's side at the back of the table top, so he can enter it if he likes, drape a light cloth partially overthe front so he can enter by going under it...so he can feel hidden or sheltered when he wants, and have a little soft rumpled cloth in it for him to lay on.


He will stay put on that arrange, just fine.



Have fun..!


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

pdpbison said:


> So, keep him on a small Table Top, on a flat towel, and if you like, set a small Box on it's side at the back of the table top, so he can enter it if he likes, drape a light cloth partially overthe front so he can enter by going under it...so he can feel hidden or sheltered when he wants, and have a little soft rumpled cloth in it for him to lay on.


small table top...? does that mean i should keep him on the top of a small table?
if so, this will be a bit difficult for me to arrange since the only smaller table is the one in the living room, and that one is way too busy..
the others are way higher...
generally, my flat is rather small and full of stuff so i do not have much choice... 
the only not very busy taller surface is the table in my bedroom... it is of normal height for a table so its not really small...
and i have no other appropriate surfaces, all of them are 'busy'..

and you say i should be keeping him outside the box, and leave him the choice of entering or staying outside?
when he first got here, i kept him in a small box (which was the first thing i found) and two days ago i got a really big one from the supermarket; i covered the bottom wit paper, and put some cloth in one part of it...i also covered this part that had cloth because i noticed he wishes to stay covered most of the time (i did the same with the small box, it had cloth and a covered part)... when i let him out, he usually finds a covered place and 'hides' there... he is not too comfortable having humans around, he just lets us (me) feed him... i am actually happy because of this, it probably means he will not get too imprinted on humans right?
but i was keeping him on the ground...i know most of the birds hate this...but i had no idea where else to put him... and i somehow assumed since he was a baby, he wont mind as much.. i did however try to keep him away from the 'busiest' parts of the flat since i didnt want him to get too upset everytime we pass near him (i supposed this would be more stressful for him since he was on the ground).
and again i must repeat i already have a pet bird, a cockatiel, and i am trying to keep them as far away as possible from each other..
having a rather small flat and a pet bird is making this a bit more difficult..

but i repeat i do have this mentioned 'free' table in my bedroom...a big, normal table, tho...should i move him there?...and throw away the big box and put a smaller one there?


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 



Higher than a Table is fine...just so you can see him and reach him alright.


Here are a few images of one sort of casual arrangement, though this one was for Winter Time ( cold enough for occasional Ice in the Sink in here ) and had a Heating Pad in it - 


http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1512126414067835264CbMauc


Just the first three images pertain to this.

And this really was a little small as for a 'front yard', but it was just a make-do when I was short on other tables to use.

The 'Summer' Version would be a Box-on-it's-side, open at the front, with a light fabric draped partway over the front, and some rumpled soft cloth inside for him to lay on when he wants to feel sheltered.


By your's age though, they are really close to being done with this sort of thing, and, they begin to prefer to explore and sleep and day dream here and there, places they can walk or climb to which normally they would get to from whatever their Nest area had been.


He needs to be able to explore and flap and so on, and be developing his muscles...


No reason not to let your young Pigeon and Cockateil socialize if they want to...

She is not going to 'catch' anything from him, and he will not catch anything from her.


I have a little Cockateil Hen ( "Butter Cup") and she constantly is eating with and socialiing with the free fly pre-release ferals in here.




I never keep Baby or youngster Pigeons in anything...I have them in various versions of the thing shown in the images, or, in open arranges on a ledge...or they decide where they wish to be and I let them.


I have never had any problems.


Once they are old enough to wish to explore and goof around, we do that also, where, I set them down if need be, and also, very iportantly, take them outside and over a series of forays, allow them to become socialized TO the 'Wild/Feral' Pigeons, before they can fly, and yours is of the perfect age to begin this.


In fact, if you intend to release this little one once he is old enough, you best begin now to prepare him, and, I would be glad to walk you through that if you wanted.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

pdpbison said:


> No reason not to let your young Pigeon and Cockateil socialize if they want to...
> 
> She is not going to 'catch' anything from him, and he will not catch anything from her.
> 
> 
> I have a little Cockateil Hen ( "Butter Cup") and she constantly is eating with and socialiing with the free fly pre-release ferals in here.



really?? i thik i've read like ten times on this forum that you should keep the newly arrived bird as far away as possible from your pet bird, too keep them in different rooms, even to change your clothes when you come close to the pet after handling the other bird.

now you say nothing bad will happen!

well this sounds just great, eventhough i havent noticed cockatiel was showing much attention to the pigeon... he was a bit curious tho, on this one occasion when they were relatively close to each other... 

thanx for your advice again!
i will have many questions when it comes to releasing the pigeon, have no doubts here


----------



## *Sally*

i have tried the towel method again, the water was tepid and my fingers were moistened and i've put em on sides of his beak and again nothing happened.
when i put him inside the towel he just wants out..
he did drink tho, but he refused to take any seeds.
he refused to take em later as well, when i offered him again.
i will try again later tho.

i must say the kid is extremely restless when i try to feed him, he flaps his wings all the time and rotates, he starts to rotate to the side that my fingers touch first, and rapidly moves his head all the time and 'pecks' my hand or whatever touches him first. this makes feeding quite difficult, because it's much harder to 'catch' his beak and i have to watch out not to hurt his eyes or to press the beak too hard. and i have to do this with only one hand.

i did however let my cockatiel near him. well, the cockatiel wasn't really impressed lol, he looked at the pigeon but i think he did this just because the kid was moving. he ate some sunflower seeds in front of the kid, prehaps this too could help the pigeon to learn how to peck


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 




Well...just set a small shallow Bowl of Seeds in front of him, or a little pile of Seeds, and 'peck' with your crook'd index finger...and see if you can get him pecking.


do this on a Table Top, on a Towell...a Towell makes it easier for them to grasp the Seeds, since it is soft and a little yeilding.




One his age, ( vis-a-vie, one who is younger ) is harder to work with for a beginner, where, if wishing to feed them, we have to have the young pigeon identify our fingers or finger tips, with his parent's Beak, and or with Food and being fed.

HIs behaviors then will be the same as what he is used to, and the same as he had been doing with his Pigeon Parents.


If various factors are not in line with this, he will not know how to co-operate as well.



Once one is used to doing this, it takes about 10 seconds to establish, and is what one does immediately upon getting the Baby or Youngster, in order to establish his acceptance of the situation and to communicate in his terms with him, so he understands right away.

Then, he knows what to do.


If there have been inconsistant patterns prior to this, it can still be done, and done quickly but it less forgiving if not done correctly...but really, you are not going to 'feed' him in a 'Baby' way anyway, and if you are going to be putting Seeds into his Mouth, that should be fine just as things are, and he will understand that...and you can stay with that for a while, while he learns to peck for himself.



It sounds like he is asking to be fed, but there is confusion and he does not understand what to do.


The light 'pecking' he is doing to yout hand and his twirling and flapping, are his ways of asking to be fed...



So...just 'peck' at Seeds with your finger tip and see if you can work with him on his pecking.

And, if it is easy and comfortable for you both, continue with 'Seed-Pop' - gently opening his Beak and putting Seeds into it for him to swallow.


Keep those poops coming...!






Good luck..!


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

i've put him on the table and arranged everything the way you advised me to.
he did fall off the table quite soon lol 
fortunately we have a fat fluffy carpet there and he was flapping his wings while falling so he didnt hurt himself. i think this happened because it was getting a bit dark.. the visibility was still good, but only for us humans i suppose.

he did some pecking a while ago! his instincts are starting to work here i guess. he did not actually pick up any seeds, but he 'pecked' allright. 
the pic:










i hope he will start eating on his own soon because i am having a hard time feeding him and i think he isn't eating as much as he should.

a few more pics of the birdie and its current home



















getting sleepy after dinner


----------



## *Sally*

this is the situation: he ate little less than an ounce in 12 hours. his appetite seemed a bit poor today.
a moment ago i've noticed a small amount of moisture coming out of his nose.
could it be he somehow caught a cold? well his immune system is probably weaker than it would have been with his parents or with someone that has more experience with these birds...but still...
i am very unhappy and worried now.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 



I a concerned with the appearance of his Throat area and under his Beak, where, there see to be a lack of Feathers.


This soetimes occurs when they have aninfection in their Throat of an illness we call 'Canker'.


Can you gently open his Beak under a strong Light source, and look down into his Throat, and see if anything is unusual there?

Have him oriented vertically...so you can look straight down into his Throat when you open his Beak...


I usually just wrap them gently in a very sall Towell, like a 'Burrito' and spigot them between y legs as I sit, right behing my knees, and I sit under a bright Light or Lamp.



A Healthy Throat will be 'pink' and smooth and glisteny.


'Canker' sometimes can show as tiny 'lumps' of off-white or yellowish color, attatched to the sides of their Throat or in their Mouth.


Also, can you describe the Poops? Colors, Size? consistancy?



Lets see about this now,and we can get back to the other things soon...


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

first i have to say i havent seen any moisture coming out of his nose today.

i have a picture here that shows the latest poop. the picture is a bit bigger so you can take a closer look at it.

link

the poops are sometimes smaller, sometimes more watery...i am not sure about the exact number...i ALWAYS forget to count..but it looked as if he pooped quite often today. the other poops were a bit smaller, but the colour was the same as this one.

i have just fed the pigeon and he was not really willing to open his beak when i wanted to examine him.
i somehow managed to make him open it and hold it opened for a second but he was too restless, even in the towel... the inside looks pink...i havent noticed any bumps but i didnt have a good look, i will try again later when he gets hungry.

if the pigeon is sick, can this illness be transferred to my cockatiel?
they got quite close to each other on two occasions...the cockatiel even ate a few of the pigeon's seeds, i did chase him away because i didnt want to risk anything.. i've put some other seeds for him to peck.. 


and, how do i cure it?

of course i will let you know the situation again later when i get a closer look..


----------



## *Sally*

i examined the pigeon again. the inside looks pink and i havent noticed any bumps. i did have a better look this time, but again the pigeon was very restless and ofcourse i am no expert so i suppose i cold've missed something.

i did some reading on the disease and this caught my attention
_Watery eyes may be apparent in birds with lesions located in the sinuses or tissues around the eyes._
the pigeon does have a small area (perhaps 2 mm) of moist feathers around his eyes and ears...i was wondering about this before but somehow i thought this area is supposed to be that way, just like the non feathered area under his beak. you must bear in mind that i have never seen a baby pigeon before, hell i dont even think i ever got a closer look at an adult before!

anyway..
the article also said that this is the most common disease amongst the pigeons and is rather easily cured. i suppose it souldnt be too difficult to find the cure here in sarajevo.
i was thinking of taking him to the vet..? will this be neccesary?
or should i maybe just buy the medicine (i have found an address of a vet pharmacy)
i hope it will not cost too much.


----------



## *Sally*

by the way, his appetite was good today and he seemed quite lively while i was feeding him.
and he fell off the table again lol.


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 


He looks ill to me...mildly ill, but he does not look lively and animated, and he should not be falling off the table...all of the images so far, he looks subdued and tentative and a little withdrawn.

He looks like he is not feeling well.


The area under his Jaw which lacks Feathers - this is a typical outer appearance they can have at this age, of a Canker issue either in the Throat or where-ever else, but which sometimes effects the skin areas there on their upper throat.


Look again, wrap him gently in a little towell so his Legs are straight "back' against his Tail, and spigot him between your knees vertically, so the part of the Towell which has his Tail in it, is held between your legs just behind your knees...sit under a strong Light, open his Beak, and look down into his Throat as far as you can.


With his poops - there is the 'brown' part...and the light color parts, are they 'yellow' or tinged with yellow? Or are they white?



Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

i already did this..twice...i wrapped him in a towel, put him between the knees and everything.. he wont open his beak... he opens it once, probably thinking he will get some food, and then desperately tries to close it...i would have to use quite a force to keep it open for more than two seconds and i am not doing this because i do not know how to do it right and i do not want to risk hurting him.

the light color part of the poop is white, not yellow.

however, i DO believe he is ill and i am taking him to the vet today.

i am getting a bit paranoid here, i hope now he doesnt have some sort of avian influenza that can be transferred to humans 
but i suppose he would have been dead by now if he did, right?


----------



## pdpbison

*Sally* said:


> i already did this..twice...i wrapped him in a towel, put him between the knees and everything.. he wont open his beak... he opens it once, probably thinking he will get some food, and then desperately tries to close it...i would have to use quite a force to keep it open for more than two seconds and i am not doing this because i do not know how to do it right and i do not want to risk hurting him.



Okay...

I know all about the 'Beak of Iron' when they do not want to open-up...!

Anyway, I would never want you to hurt him, so...at least you tried to get a good look anyway.




> the light color part of the poop is white, not yellow.



Okay...





> however, i DO believe he is ill and i am taking him to the vet today.



He has some signs associated with 'Canker' ( ie: the bare area under his Throat...on his upper throat...) or associated with a mild infection of some sort.


And, he seems a little subdued...'sheepish'...instead of out-going and energetic.




> i am getting a bit paranoid here, i hope now he doesnt have some sort of avian influenza that can be transferred to humans
> but i suppose he would have been dead by now if he did, right?



Lol...

Pigeons do not get the N5H1 anyway, just so you know...


They sometimes get Pigeon illnesses which can be serious for them of course, but these are not transmittable to us...and, as with any animal, even more importantly with any one's school or pre-school children ( who can or will have endless germs or illnesses one CAN get ) , one merely washes one's hands and observes basic hygene things, just on principle.


He is a very sweet little Pigeon who is not feeling well.


I hope your Vet is familar with Pigeons, or, at least, with Birds...since they vary a great deal from Mammals in the kinds of illnesses they can get, and how to decide what one is seeing, in order to treat it.


Anyway, for sake of prudence, just allow him his own Water Bowl which is just for him, that your Coskateil will not drink from, and so he can not drink from hers either of course,...and have things arranged so his poops are easy to keep in one place and toss out, so your Cockateil will not sample any of them for a snack once they are dry ( which they will do! ) and that should be fine as for prudent observances which respect the situation.


No worries...just common sense is all you need.


Good luck..!


Anyway, 'Canker' is certainly probable...but hard to identify with certainty when no lesions are visible in their throat, since it can occur farther down and not be visiable.

A fecal Test, and, a Crop Swab, examined under a Microscope, might be good to have done, if it does not cost too much with this Vet.


Judging by what we can tell so far, if it was me, getting this little one in, my so far sense of it, is that I would probably treat for 'Canker', and, also, have him on an antibiotic a while...but I could not say yet which antibiotic I would elect.


I have had a great many young Pigeons similar to yours, brought to me or who I find, who are ill with one thing or another, and, one has to sort of make decisions about what Medicines to use, based on experience with respect to the cues and one's interpretations.

This is a lot harder to do at a distance than when having them on hand where one can observe things up close.


Anyway...no worries, but do see what the Vet might be able to decide.


I sure like the little guy, just seeing his pictures.


So lets see what the Vet can come up with, and how he is with this 'good will' wise.


Best wishes!


Phil
l v


----------



## *Sally*

this vet i went to (at the veterinarian faculty) told me to feed him some vitamins and minerals for a few days , before doing any tests, to see if there is any improvement...since he doesnt look very bad, there was no need for an urgent treatment, and the tests are rather expensive..
she can test him to many different illnesses, but she does not have the test for trichomonads (bacteria that causes canker)
she said that she would have to do several tests anyway, since animals can show simptoms of one disease, and actually have a completely different one..

there are two other vet stations in town i believe..
i'll see....

oh and yes i've read in the meanwhile that almost entire of pigeon species is resistant to N5H1 lol...good to know!


----------



## *Sally*

by the way 


pdpbison said:


> and have things arranged so his poops are easy to keep in one place and toss out, so your Cockateil will not sample any of them for a snack once they are dry ( which they will do! )


lol i hate it when they do this 
i have been instantly removing pigeon poops from the first day he got here...
well he usually poops out a few before i change the paper...


i have decided to keep the cockatiel away from the pigeon... well they arent extremely interested in each other anyway so it doesnt really matter i guess


----------



## Whitefeather

You're doing a wonderful job with the little one, Sally. 

One of the first things I look at when a suspected ill pigeon has come to me, is their eyes.

I noticed the picture in post #1 the baby's eye that was visible was ver dull looking.
Compare that with the picture in post # 25 & you can see (at least I can) a vast difference. The eye was so much more alert & even had a sparkle to it. Which is a good thing. 

He does seem a bit fluffed as well, which indicates he isn't feeling 100%. 
It may be as simple as not having been able to fend for himself.

The picture of his dropping indicates he *is* getting fluids, whether by you or self drinking. 

When a pigeon is compromised, for whatever reason, they need to conserve *all* their energy. Making the decision to keep him separated from your cockatiel is, in my opinion, a good move as he may get excited & start running around which in turn takes a lot of energy.

Please do keep us posted on how things are coming along.

Cindy


----------



## *Sally*

thanx for your reply! 

these are today's pictures



















i am feeding him little bit of this little bit of that, popcorn being the dominant food. since he wont eat much at once, i am feeding him small amounts more often.
i have started to feed him B vitamin complex (actually, 1 gram of yeast melt in water, this is what the vet advised me) per day
A+D3 vitamin drops one drop per day (this was my estimation, your reccommendations are very welcome here)
and a little bit of dried cranberries because they are extremely rich with vitamin C

the poops look great and there are many.
again, if you have any recommendations when it comes to vitamins, please let me know.


----------



## *Sally*

oh and by the way..

i still do believe he has (a mild form of) trichomoniasis...i suppose this wont go just like that?
i will not take any actions yet, but if his condition does not improve (or even gets worse!) in a few days, i suppose i should...

the vet can not test him to this disease, so i suppose there isnt much point taking him to the vet again...

if this turns out to be the case, what medicine should i give him?

i would like to know this in advance because i am having some problems getting pretty much anything around here, i have just moved to this city recently...


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 



Food and suppliments sound good to me...

Good to hear there are plenty of poops being made also..!


Can you get 'White Safflower' Seeds?

Canary Seeds?

Hemp Seeds?


He would like those...



'Metronidazole' is one of the Medicines used for treating 'Canker' or Trichomona illness.


This same Protozoa is of concern in situations where people have Tropical Fish in Aquariums.

Hence, Tropical Fish and Aquarium stores will carry some form of 'Metronidazole', Tablets usually, and it can be used for Birds or other Animals also of course, once portioned into correct dosage for the patient.



Pigeon supply businesses should exist in your area or broader region, and possibly you could see if any occur in doing some internet searches, and, if need be, obtain some through the Mail.


Post some pictures of the poops if you get a chance.


Nice to see his little Wing-Stretch there...



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## *Sally*

update: the bird is progressing, but slowly. 
i have noticed a small bump next to his left eye. however it looks nothing like canker bumps, its the same color as the skin there, pink. it looks as if someone placed a tiny seed underneath the skin. 
and there was quite a large amount of mucilage/slime inside his throat. it was see-through and yellowish.

i have actually found one 250 mg tablet of metronidazole at home.

what is the dosage for a young pigeon?? i believe this one tablet should last a day or two if not even more.

i also have some amoxycillin so if you think this would be more appropriate...


----------



## pdpbison

*Sally* said:


> update: the bird is progressing, but slowly.
> i have noticed a small bump next to his left eye. however it looks nothing like canker bumps, its the same color as the skin there, pink. it looks as if someone placed a tiny seed underneath the skin.




Hi Sally, 


This is probably a tiny Feather which has not got out of the Skin there.


Whan I do when I find these, is to gently scratch with my ( well scrubbed first, of ) fingernail, to just break the skin at the tip of the 'bump' so the little Feather can grow 'out'.


Cleaning the skin there, before and after, with a Q-Tip moistened with Alcohol or other topical disinfectant would be proper to do.




> and there was quite a large amount of mucilage/slime inside his throat. it was see-through and yellowish.



Hard to say what is indicated by that..other than, it would not be inconsistant for Canker, anyway...




> i have actually found one 250 mg tablet of metronidazole at home.
> 
> what is the dosage for a young pigeon?? i believe this one tablet should last a day or two if not even more.
> 
> i also have some amoxycillin so if you think this would be more appropriate...



The dosage as I recall, for Metronidazole, is 250 Miligrammes, Orally given, per Kilogramme of Pigeon weight.


So, if your Pigeon weighs say 250 Grammes, than he weighs one-fourth of a Kilogramme, and, would then receive 1/4th of 250 Milllilitres ( which your tablet happens to be ) or, roughly 67 Miligrammes per-day.


So if you just divide the Tablet into fairly even fourths, that should work fine.

Just put a quarter Tablet into his outh far enough back for him to swallow...and ake sure he does swallow it and not spit it out.


How are the poops? What are they looking like these days?


And is he eating and drinking alright?



Phil
l v


----------



## Feefo

> The dosage as I recall, for Metronidazole, is 250 Miligrammes, Orally given, per Kilogramme of Pigeon weight.


That sounds an extremely high dose if you go by Helen's instructions, the highest she recommends is 100mg per kilo bodyweight once a day! 




> METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl, Torgyl, Stormogyl)
> 
> Dose 20-50 mgs per kilo BID or 40-100mgs per kilo OID (Once daily)- 14 days.
> 
> In very rare cases, liver damage can be caused by prolonged use over 14 days - but it is very rare and one must balance the risks.
> If maintained for 14 days or more it is highly effective against a severe infection of trichomonas gallinae and in preventing an inside recurrence- (not reinfection from an outside source, ie another bird).
> Used for anaerobic, (flushing deep wounds), and protozoal infections. Can be given concurrently with Amoxy and Trim Sulphas


Helen's recommendation is the same maximum dosage recommended by this site: http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html

Cynthia


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Cynthia, 



The Book and Formulary of "Clinical Avian Medicine" has it at 200-250 Milligrammes per Kilo of Pigeon weight, Oral, per Day.


This has been the stardard reference Dose-wise in all instances I recall here on Pigeontalk, whever the subject has come up.


I understand that info from decades ago had tended to call for what are now regarded as very 'low' and ineffectual doses.

...and that those figures were revised...possibly oweing to how various Canker Strains have become resistant oweing to peoples 'Loft Treatments' and commercial flock treatments and so on.



I recall my Vet saying he figures at "250" for Pigeons and Doves.


Other Bird Kinds, and other 'Zoles', of course will tend to differ dose-wise.


Half-a-dose, every 12 hours, is fine to do, far as I know...


"Emtryl", or 'dimetridazole' was one where it was pretty easy to OD them, and the range between the right dose and OD-ing the was sort of small.


Metronidazole is pretty forgiving in that regard...


The danger of course of under-dosing, is that the Medicine will kill off only the weaker of the offending Organisms, while 'teaching' the stronger ones to resist the Medicine.



Best wishes...


Phil
l v


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## *Sally*

pdpbison said:


> How are the poops? What are they looking like these days?
> 
> 
> And is he eating and drinking alright?


these things havent changed... he doesnt eat as much as you told me he should, he obviously has his own 'dosage' here, and that hasnt changed much.
i must however say that my boyfriend has been feeding the bird most of the time for the last four days since i wasnt at home all the time... but from what he has told me, the pigeon is eating about the same amount of food i had been feeding him.
he still wont eat by himself and he still doesnt like us very much lol  he doesnt really connect us with food and he still doesnt really understand what food is. 
but sometimes i fell like he wont eat by himself out of some sort of defiance  he refuses to eat out of the shotglass - or any other dish, eventhough he did eat the first time i offered him.
he obviously isnt very happy having us around and still wants his parents back.

the poops are the same - small, but there are many. green + white.

the dosage... so you say, 1/4 a day...
but for how long? how many days?


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## Feefo

Phil,

Helen is our respected moderator Nooti, she is one of the most experienced and successful pigeon rescuers there is, having rescued 800+ in one particular year . She did the research that led to that post a couple of years ago, certainly in this decade. 

Can you copy exactly what it says in the formulary? Because I have done my own research and find that both Dr Colin Walker (the Flying Vet and author of the book The Flying Vet's Pigeon Healt and Management) and Dr Wym Peters,(Author of Fit to Win) recommend 1/4 tablet a day for an *adult racing pigeon*. That is consistent with a dose of 100mg per Kg bodyweight.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

OK, as Phil hasn't answered I did my own search and found this information on dosing pigeons, both are atributed to Johnson - Delaney 1996:

_Metronidazole
Bird	Pigeons: 50 mg/kg BW PO bid for 5 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 200-250 mg/kg BW PO sid for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 10-20 mg/kg BW IM sid for 2 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)
Pigeons: 4 g/gal drinking water for 3-7 days (Johnson-Delaney, 1996)_

http://info.med.yale.edu/yarc/vcs/parasiticides2.htm

I would be interested in knowing why the higher dose is considered the "new" dose, and the lower one considered to be "decades out of date", since they were both recommended by the same person more than a decade ago.



> The Book and Formulary of "Clinical Avian Medicine" has it at 200-250 Milligrammes per Kilo of Pigeon weight, Oral, per Day.
> This has been the stardard reference Dose-wise in all instances I recall here on Pigeontalk, whever the subject has come up


Personally I have always found the lower dose to be effective, and on reading back to a thread that you started last August, Phil, and which discussed the various dosages recommended in different formularies including the Avian Medicine formulary and its recommended single daily dose of 200/250 mg/kg BW I found that the thread ended with this post from Terry:



> Phil,
> 
> For a pigeon, we want to get 50 mg of Metronidazole per kilogram of weight of the bird into the bird two times per day making that a total of 100 mg of Metronidazole per kilogram of weight of the bird each day. If the bird weighs 1 kilogram, then 100 mg is the amount to get in each day, and that 100 mg is divided into two doses of 50 mg each given at approximately 12 hour intervals.
> 
> Obviously, very few of our pigeons weigh 1 kilogram (approx 2.2 pounds). Thus, we must calculate how much to give based upon the weight of the bird. That's why I posted my little "chart" in 50 grams of weight increments .. to make it easy to know how much to give. My chart ASSumes that each 1 cc of solution contains 25 mg of Metronidazole. If you mix the solution to that strength, and follow the chart I posted, you are right on.
> 
> Terry




If there have been substantial changes since then I must have missed them.

Cynthia


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## *Sally*

ok i have two options:

1. cca 1/4 of 250mg tablet
2. cca 1/6 of 250mg tablet

(to make it simple)

which one do i give him?


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## *Sally*

the link

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/canker.htm

it says 1/4 of a 250mg metronidazole tablet for a smaller bird, for 1-3 days

i think i'll go with that

?


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## Lovebirds

*Sally* said:


> the link
> 
> http://www.vitakingproducts.com/canker.htm
> 
> it says 1/4 of a 250mg metronidazole tablet for a smaller bird, for 1-3 days
> 
> i think i'll go with that
> 
> ?


Ummmmm, I usually stay out of these threads, however, VitaKing is a very well known pigeon product supplier. If I was you, I would go with what they say. ,


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## pdpbison

cyro51 said:


> Phil,
> 
> Helen is our respected moderator Nooti, she is one of the most experienced and successful pigeon rescuers there is, having rescued 800+ in one particular year . She did the research that led to that post a couple of years ago, certainly in this decade.
> 
> Can you copy exactly what it says in the formulary? Because I have done my own research and find that both Dr Colin Walker (the Flying Vet and author of the book The Flying Vet's Pigeon Healt and Management) and Dr Wym Peters,(Author of Fit to Win) recommend 1/4 tablet a day for an *adult racing pigeon*. That is consistent with a dose of 100mg per Kg bodyweight.
> 
> Cynthia



Hi Cynthia, 


Please know I have every appropriate and due respect both for you and for 'noooti'.


And, that I feel very positively, that it is always useful and valuable to discuss dosages, specific Medications and their uses, or anything else which concern our affection for and desires to aid these Birds.


My 'copy' at hand of the formulary, is a "PDF" file which does not allow highlight-and-copy to be done.


However, I did quote it correctly in my prior post, of it indicating 200 - 250 mG per-Kilo, per-Day, and, also, I had quoted my Vet correctly in his recent affirmation of his own electing of "250 Milligrammes-per-kilo" for 24 hours as the standard rule or norm for Pigeons and Doves in his practice.


This does not mean that some 'strains' of the Canker illness will even respond satisfactorily to the "200 -250" dose of Metropnidazole...for that matter.




Love, 


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

*Sally* said:


> the link
> 
> http://www.vitakingproducts.com/canker.htm
> 
> it says 1/4 of a 250mg metronidazole tablet for a smaller bird, for 1-3 days
> 
> i think i'll go with that
> 
> ?




Hi Sally, 


Looks like the 'VitaKing' reference is in keeping with what I and my Vet have accepted.


Personally, I think every individual Pigeon is capable of having varying degrees of response to a given dose of a given Canker Medicine...and or different 'strains' of the disease, different involvements of it in the Bird's system, will respond differently.


I know I have had cases here which did not clear up in 3 to 4 days, or which took 6 or 7 days to clear up...

Some did not seem to respond to Metronidazole well at all, but responded fairly well to Ronidazole or Carnidazole.

All Canker cases I had treated with 'Berimax' resonded very well, but I can not get that medicine any more.


So ultimately, it is hard to lay down firm 'rules' for dosage and for how long to have the Pigeon-Patient on the regimen, other than we do not want to have them on a higher dose for a long time, and or, if we find the Canker is not responding well after a few days, we should consider to try a different Medicine, and or to review whether it is even Canker at all which we are trying to treat.


Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison

Another reference, 





> Name: Metronidazole (Flagyl)
> Description: Metronidazole is in the 5-nitro-imidazole family of compounds and has been shown to have significant antiprotozoal activity.
> Usage: Trichomoniasis.
> Adverse reactions: Over dosage can result in central nervous system signs and death.
> Dosage: 50 - 100 mg/bird daily for 4 - 6 days.
> Comments: Not commonly used due to poor solubility in water for flock treatment. [/quote
> 
> 
> 
> Found at
> 
> http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html
> 
> 
> "50 - 100 mG per Bird"
> 
> ...if the Pigeon ( as most adult ferals around here would be, ) weigh say 330 Grammes, then, this would be roughly 150 - 300 mG per "Kilo"...
> 
> 
> Probably the reference anticipates heftier 'weight' Homers of the 400 - 500 Gramme range.
> 
> 
> Phil
> l v


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## pdpbison

Another, differing reference -




> Metronidazole (Flagyl): 25-50 mg per pigeon per day - 1250-2500 mg per gallon (4 liters) for 4-6 days.



Found at - 


http://www.myrtlelofts.com/vet9.htm


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## *Sally*

gave him 1/4 yesterday, looks fine now. he hasnt o-d'd, obviously...

i'll post pictures later so you can see his progress... and the bump next to his eye...i'm not sure if its a feather bump... i hope you'll be able to tell me when you see the pictures..

thanx again!


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## pdpbison

...if it is a smooth 'tent' of Skin, it is a Feather trying to come out.

If it is irregular or textured or bumpy, it is probably what is called a 'blup' and is a little skin-tumor thing and of no consequence, but should not be abraded, and would have no Feather 'shoot' under it.


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## *Sally*

update...a bad one i'm afraid.

but.. first the good news, metronidazole has obviously helped with the canker issue... the feathers around the beak are starting to grow, and that bump next to his eye (i believe it was something related to an eye infection of some sort) has gone.

so anyway...as i have to travel tommorrow (to another country), i left him with my boyfriends dad who is by the way a doctor. he called us this afternoon to tell us that our birdie seems to be blind 
he can probably see some outlines and shadows, but he's obviously (almost completely) blind.
now it all sort of fits together...
at first i thought he was so clumsy and disoriented because he was a baby...
then you mentioned canker so i thought his illness was the reason why he isnt progressing like he should..
and so many situations...when i put him in my arm and lift him only 2 cm above the ground and he is too afraid to jump (not to say walk) down.. 
or when he wants inside the box but cant exactly find it eventhough he is close to it, and he finally enters when he's etremely close or touches one of the sides (which often confuses him and he starts pecking before deciding where to go). 
his wings are definitely strong enough to fly...he shows it every day when he strongly claps them..he just doesnt lift off..probably because he cant see where he is...
not to mention food and water...how he just doesnt get it...how he doesnt get US..
i dont know what to think now..
we have decided to wait some more and see...
what do you think?

i suppose the best thing to do if this turns out to be true, is to put him to sleep... what kind of life can a blind bird have..?
this so totally sucks... i realy like the little guy


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## Feefo

> i suppose the best thing to do if this turns out to be true, is to put him to sleep... what kind of life can a blind bird have..?
> this so totally sucks... i realy like the little guy


This is very, very sad, but a number of our members have blind birds and they live happy lives. I will leave it to those members to reassure you from their own experiences. But the for a starter, here is [email protected] thread about his blind pigeon Unie:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10825&referrerid=560

As this is just a baby he will adapt to his blindness .

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi Sally, 


Blind Pigeons indeed can have happy satisfying lives, and enjoy all the various things they enjoy.

Of course, they have to be taken care of, and can not be released.


I had one some years ago who had lost both eyes from a terrible infection.


He learned to eat, preened himself perfectly, and looked very handsome and regal...he liked the afternoon Sunshine on him, and he now lives in Southern California, where he has a blind Hen-wife, and they get along very sweetly.


Others here on Pigeontalk have Blind Pigeons and can attest that while Blindness does of course limit the Bird's autonomy, it does not forbid a good quality of Life.



Glad to hear the Feathers are growing in around his throat.


While not a definitivie indication of Canker, 'bare' areas in that location certainly suggest it is present.


So, if having had him on the etronidazole for a time, Feathers are now filling in, I think we'd have to say that your having him on the Medicine was a good thing, and probably helped him a good deal.



Best wishes!


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey

I've got a youngster right now that can obviously see but he sure acts like he's blind. He never looks directly at you and doesn't respond when you wave your hand in front of him but he sees just fine. Tell you what--do the light test where you shine a small flashlight in his eyes, remove, shine, remove, shine... and watch for the pupil to constrict and dilate. That's called "pupillary reflex". Give that a try and let's see how he does.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks

Hi Sally,

Cindy (AZWhitefeather) has a blind pigeon named Rae Charles. She is quite a LOVE.

Cindy has her in her aviary in her own cage. Her feeding and water dishes are placed in such a way that she knows how to "find" them. 

I know Pidgey's Unie, while blind, was flying outside, thanks to Pidgey and his training and patience.

Wishing you and your little one all the best with Love, Hugs and Scritches. We will certainly be waiting for positive updates.

Shi


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## TAWhatley

I also have blind pigeons as well as blind ducks .. they all do just fine. You do have to make sure that food and water is where they are used to finding it, but aside from that .. they are pretty much like any sighted bird and have a good quality of life.

Terry


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## *Sally*

hi everybody! havent been here in a while... but i know i owe you an update..



Pidgey said:


> I've got a youngster right now that can obviously see but he sure acts like he's blind. He never looks directly at you and doesn't respond when you get wave your hand in front of him but he sees just fine.


this was obviously the case with mine... the first day after we left him with my boyfriend's dad he started to eat on his own! 
after a week we came back and picked him up...in about two weeks he finally managed to lift off (while flapping his wings) and fly for a meter or so...
i have also been taking him outside and introducing him to a nearby flock.. i would have asked you for an advice but my computer broke and the reparation took forever...i did however remember some things i've read here so i took him outside a few times, always to the same flock... unfortunately, i had to travel AGAIN so i left him with my boyfrinends dad...again... 
the pigeons flying skills improved rapidly, so in about a week his dad released him (this happened about five days ago)... i hope the birdie is doing fine...he forgot to mark him so we have no idea how he's doing.. but my guess is he's doing just fine...or at least i hope so..


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