# Project



## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*I am currently planning to begin a Recessive red/Indigo project I want to see the effects of these two color modifiers on each other. Has anyone out there any info in reguard to this type of project?* .GEORGE


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

George,

Are you planning this with your Saddle Homers?

Margaret


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

It would be a guess I think the indigo would also unmask any hidden color behind your ressesive reds. Then The old story you never know until you try kicks in. Give it a shot and let us know hoe it goes. I usume you are working your show racers . Did you ever know bob english. I believe he helped set ressesive red into show racers. I havent talked to him in a few years hes get up in age now Gave his birds up several years ago.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Well I will be using racing homers for this project ,as I have a recessive red racing homer. He is currently mated to a brown bar hen and they have that look more golden in color.I hope to be posting pictures in about 2 weeks.I also have 3 honozygous Indigo's to use in this project.I think that I will enjoy this project. Robert I don't know Bob English. GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*

I'm not sure how this would work either but I suppose, like Robert says, you're just going to unmask whatever the RR is underneath. It is possible that the indigoes from RR might show alittle more of a reddish cast in the bronze.

I'm new to Indigo myself but I have some and enjoy them too. I'm more interested in modifying the Indigo with other genes such as reduced, dilute, etc. It is an interesting color and the andalusions can be very attractive.

Bill


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

Since indigo in its homozygous state is almost a perfect ash-red mimic, when you have a **** indigo **** recessive red bird, you get a good looking recessive red bird sometimes with flights and tail a bit more indigo looking. Other than that, you just get some decent recessive red. I used to see a lot of them when the Luden brothers had indio/recessive red Indian Fans


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi FRANK, The recessive red cock that I have shows a lot of white he also shows a blue tail feather the rest are white. He was bred out of two blue bars. I know how the recessive got into my loft but I will not go into that now.He is mated to a brown bar hen and she may be carring recessive as she is a cousin and the two young that they just raised have a golden look and not the red look of recessive red,this I think is cause by the brown acting on the color pigment. Those are the birds I plan on using on the red side of this project on the indigo side I will be using homogzyous indigos and straight indigos. GEORGE*


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## bluecheck (Aug 17, 2006)

George, the only thing I've ever seen with brown on recessive red is better colored recessive red. Is there any chance that your birds are also carrying pale? Pale turns that recessive red to gold. Or if you have dilute indigo you often get a gold look plus a sort of steel gray color to the indigo (on non-recessive red birds)


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Well I guess its time to explain how I got recessive red into my loft.Back in 1996 or 1997 I had a SERAPHIM that mated with one of my racing homers.I kept the young to use as dropers.Well the young cock from this mating mated to a homer and I raised some more droppers which produced some brown birds which I kept.In any event that is how the recessive factor got into my loft it goes back to the SERAPHIM as they came out of a pair of the old fashoined long-faced Oriental frills one was carrying recessive red and the other was carrying recessive yellow. I believe that the old dropper cock is loaded with supprizes in his gene pool that show up in his grand childern, but that may be another puzzle that I will need to work on at a later date.* .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Frank and George*



bluecheck said:


> George, the only thing I've ever seen with brown on recessive red is better colored recessive red. Is there any chance that your birds are also carrying pale? Pale turns that recessive red to gold. Or if you have dilute indigo you often get a gold look plus a sort of steel gray color to the indigo (on non-recessive red birds)


In the pics that Terri posted from the show, there is one youngster that looks like a dilute indigo to me. Might be the one that George is holding, can't remember for sure.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*George*



george simon said:


> *Well I guess its time to explain how I got recessive red into my loft.Back in 1996 or 1997 I had a SERAPHIM that mated with one of my racing homers.I kept the young to use as dropers.Well the young cock from this mating mated to a homer and I raised some more droppers which produced some brown birds which I kept.In any event that is how the recessive factor got into my loft it goes back to the SERAPHIM as they came out of a pair of the old fashoined long-faced Oriental frills one was carrying recessive red and the other was carrying recessive yellow. I believe that the old dropper cock is loaded with supprizes in his gene pool that show up in his grand childern, but that may be another puzzle that I will need to work on at a later date.* .GEORGE


There is alot of different genetics behind Seraphims, from what I've read. It is somewhat of a mystery why the birds carry much recessive red and recessive yellow as babies and moult to white. I suspect grizzle and opal but I really don't know.

I remember a thread about these birds when someone got some of them recently and I read with interest as they are interesting and pretty. Then it turned out that a friend of mine had a hand in their creation, that friend being Bob Pettit. I know that Bob worked very extensively with dominant opals and probably understood the gene as well as anyone. He may very well have had recessive opals as well. Sadly, I only met him near the end of his life and only got to see him a handful of times. He was a very kind, down to earth man who knew a great deal and was a very successful business man. It was a pleasure to know him and to have been a brief acquaintance with both he and Doc Hollander who were friends. I wish I had known them both better and longer.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi BILL, Yes BOB RETTIT did have a hand in helping ANN ELLIS he was her mentor she show him the first two that she bred and she said that wanted to have them recognized as a new breed he became her mentor. I will quote from an artical that ANN wrote"In 1987 Bob gave me some very nice Old Frills he had purchased at Kankakee. His words were "You need these". At the time Idid not realize how wise his words were because my focus was on whether I could make more Seraphim or not. The concepts of genetic diversity and preserving a vigorous gene pool had not yet become concerns to me." There is more in her artical but must cut it short or I will be writting the whole artical. * GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*What About This One, George?*










It's a cock bird and has been with me for a couple of months now .. very, very handsome bird. Isn't it at least sort of the "color" you are trying to get?

Terry


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> In the pics that Terri posted from the show, there is one youngster that looks like a dilute indigo to me. Might be the one that George is holding, can't remember for sure.
> 
> Bill


 Yes BILL that bird and her nest mate are homozygous but I feel that she may be pale ,faded or reduced.I will be sending the band numbers of the parents to the guy that I got the birds from and I hope he can answer that question. GEORGE


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

TAWhatley said:


> It's a cock bird and has been with me for a couple of months now .. very, very handsome bird. Isn't it at least sort of the "color" you are trying to get?
> 
> Terry


 Hi TERRY, No that is not what I am after,I want to see the effect of the two color modifiers (recessive and indigo)on each other and hope to get a stronger red color. GEORGE


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

george simon said:


> Hi TERRY, No that is not what I am after,I want to see the effect of the two color modifiers (recessive and indigo)on each other and hope to get a stronger red color. GEORGE


OK .. thanks for letting me know, George. I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out that you genetics guys do  So you are looking for RED or how to get incredicle RED .. right?

Terry


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

sounds too complicated for me, but please post some pictures of the results


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I don't think it's reduced*



george simon said:


> Yes BILL that bird and her nest mate are homozygous but I feel that she may be pale ,faded or reduced.I will be sending the band numbers of the parents to the guy that I got the birds from and I hope he can answer that question. GEORGE


I have some reduced indigoes and I'll post some pics. At least that's what I'm calling them, even though they were purchased as blacks. I know the bloodline and there is much indigo and reduced in it as well as black. I do not have a dilute indigo yet but will next breeding season. I have seen many reduced birds that were called blue or black but if they have a reddish cast, I'm pretty certain that most of them are indigo.

Your youngster could be pale but I have no pales (that I'm aware of). To me, it really looks like a dilute indigo but again, I'm only guessing.

What makes you say that it is homozygous? I thought they were supposed to appear as ash reds.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Terry*



TAWhatley said:


> It's a cock bird and has been with me for a couple of months now .. very, very handsome bird. Isn't it at least sort of the "color" you are trying to get?
> 
> Terry


Well, you sure find some interesting colors. This bird looks a bit like reduced indigo but I can't say that it is. It has somewhat the look of a Suabian or Pheasant Pigeon but reduced or diluted.

As for George's project, I'm going to have some of the same breeding but for a different reason. I plan to mate a recessive yellow cock to an indigo hen but my main reason is I want to make dilute indigo. How recessive red/yellow will interact with indigo, I don't know but it will be interesting. My indigoes have alot of reddish or bronze to them already and whether the RR will add any more, I have no idea. I'm pretty sure that mine are just T patterns and probably fairly typical for T pattern indigo. I'll post some pics of them as well. Maybe today, I can get the camera out and get something to post.

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> I have some reduced indigoes and I'll post some pics. At least that's what I'm calling them, even though they were purchased as blacks. I know the bloodline and there is much indigo and reduced in it as well as black. I do not have a dilute indigo yet but will next breeding season. I have seen many reduced birds that were called blue or black but if they have a reddish cast, I'm pretty certain that most of them are indigo.
> 
> Your youngster could be pale but I have no pales (that I'm aware of). To me, it really looks like a dilute indigo but again, I'm only guessing.
> 
> ...


 BILL the parents of these youngsters are Indigo on blue check the guy that I got these birds from is playing around with reduced that is realy what I believe is going on here.If this is true the Indigo cock could be carrying reduced and not show it. The nest mate of this light color bird looks red so I know that he is homozygous the lighter one must have another factor working and that is making it lighter in color,it has a pinkish look about that may be hard to see in a photo in about a week or so I hope to be able to post pictures. .GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*

Perhaps the fact that your indigoes are on blue check, rather than T pattern, could lighten them to look different than mine. I have a few reduced hens that I'm still sorting out the genetics on. I'm pretty sure that they are reduced indigo but what else, I'm not yet certain. Reduced birds are somewhat variable in appearance but I suspect that they have some factors that the original breeders were not aware of when I bought them. There are way too many factors that can make slight alterations in how they look, such as dirty, sooty, smokey, etc. I know that at least some of mine have dirty factor. As to your pinkish cast, it definately presents itself in reduced indigo. I don't know what dilute does to them but I'll find out soon.

Bill


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