# Inflamed Eye Cere & Eyelid; need advice



## rfboyer

Here's Velvet; I'm holding him... his eye is rather inflamed and I need some advice.









I first noticed this about a week and a half ago, and he was just keeping his eye half-shut once in a while. He's been on dummy eggs, and I hadn't really had a good look at this side of him until last weekend, when I noticed his eye had gotten swollen and a little crusty in places (not like a pox, I don't think). Next few days I applied ophthalmic erythromycin ointment to his eye, and it seemed to improve little by little, until today, when it was the most swollen it had been, though it's not crusty.

So, now I guess he will be needing more than just topical treatment. I'd hugely appreciate suggestions on what to give him; I've got an arsenal of meds but don't want to overmedicate him with stuff he doesn't need. 

Velvet eats & drinks well, doesn't seem "light," mouth and throat look clear & normal pink. Otherwise, good posture and normal cockbird behavior (courting, bringing twigs, sitting the eggs, etc) though he generally doesn't fight and none of the others hassles him, that I'm aware of. He's one of my "senior" birds, 10 years old, generally tame and used to being handled. I was surprised when he didn't protest when I caught him to put the ointment on his eye, though he was not easy to catch. He does seem able to see with that eye, but the swelling limits his peripheral vision.

This evening's poop:








Urates look more yellow in photo than real life, despite correcting white balance... 

Thanks in advance for advice!


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## Dobato

Robin, looks like a one-eye cold. Remind me what you have on hand in terms of antibiotics.

Thanks,

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi Robin,



The Erythromycin Opthalimc Ointment should have done the trick for the usual infected eye things we see, so if it has not, maybe do some 'googles' and see what kinds of Bacteria the ingredients would not cover, and, consider to consult a Vet or MD on what would be used in that eventuality for an infected Eye.


Poop wise, the 'flat, paint-like' Urates, even if not 'yellow' to any marked degree, in my experience, usually are showing an early stage of Canker somewhere in the PIgeon's system, even if one sees a clear Mouth snd Throat.


If you have a friendly Vet, maybe a culture could be made from a swab of the Eye, and a determination made then as for what class or sort of Bacteria or other Organism is responsible.


If it is a Virus in the Eye then possibly trying to provide comfort is about all that can be done till it runs it's course.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer

Thanks, Karyn & Phil...

Meds I have on hand: 
Sulmet 12.5% liquid
Sulfatrim oral suspension - 200mg sulfamethoxazole & 40 mg trimethoprim per 5ml (Lou's handwritten note says 2.5 tbsp per gallon of water for loose droppings)
Coxi Plus - sulfadimethoxine sodium 25% (water soluble powder, dose 1 scoop (provided) per 2 litres according to label)
Viceton - chloramphenicol 250mg tabs (label instructions are for dogs... )
Lugol solution 
Divet tablets 
Meditrich coated tabs - 100mg metronidazole
Metronidazolum - 60mg
Medistatin powder
Ronidazole powder (mixes into drinking water)

ETA: some of the less usual stuff I found at Lou's loft and have no idea how to use it

Should I pop him one of the 'zole tabs against the probable "early canker?"

If this is virus, since it seems to have only temporarily responded to the erithromycin ointment, is there anything I can do for Velvet's eye to relieve discomfort? 

Now that I'm thinking more about it, I recall that Velvet collided with the bill of my hat a few weeks ago (he flew out of his nest box as I stood up from bending over to tidy one of the ones below his) but he didn't seem injured at the time (surprised but didn't crash-land). There was at least a week in between that and when the eyelid began to look a bit 'off' so I'm not sure there'd be any connection...


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## pdpbison

Hi Robin,



May as well do a week of Metronidazole...and see if doing so brings the Urates back into a normal 'paste' mode.


What is the strength or dosage of the Pills/Tablets you have?



The Antibiotic Eye Ointment should have a soothing effect.


Possibly he did scratch or injure his Eye, which then led to an infection or infections opportuning.


When you have been applying the Ointment so far, are you laying a tiny 'squig' at the top of the upper Lid, so it can then melt, and, distribute itself down into the entire Eye?


Phil
L v


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## Dobato

Robin, you may need to balance you medicine cabinet a little better, lots of sulfa based drugs, but it would be nice to have Baytril and a drug from the tetracycline family as well, if you could keep some Doxycycline on hand, this would be good. I think I am see some nasal discharge, and is he sneezing and does he have any new resistance to flight, where he does not really want to fly?

Karyn


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## rfboyer

pdpbison said:


> May as well do a week of Metronidazole...and see if doing so brings the Urates back into a normal 'paste' mode.
> What is the strength or dosage of the Pills/Tablets you have?


I have 2 strengths: 
100mg that are coated pills (supposed to be better tolerated when digestion is in disorder)
60mg - package claims "1 pill, 1 day" (which is probably "underkill," right?) 

If I keep him in the house for the week I give this, is there anything special I should do to reacclimate him to being in a relatively cold loft when he's better? And, should I bring his hen into the house, too, so she doesn't get "stolen" by another cockbird while he's gone? (They have only been together since July so I don't know how strong their bond is; his previous hen died last May.)



> The Antibiotic Eye Ointment should have a soothing effect.
> Possibly he did scratch or injure his Eye, which then led to an infection or infections opportuning.
> When you have been applying the Ointment so far, are you laying a tiny 'squig' at the top of the upper Lid, so it can then melt, and, distribute itself down into the entire Eye?


OK, I'll continue with the ointment. Yes to the 'squig' as well as patting some around the rest of the inflamed area.


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Robin, you may need to balance you medicine cabinet a little better, lots of sulfa based drugs, but it would be nice to have Baytril and a drug from the tetracycline family as well, if you could keep some Doxycycline on hand, this would be good. I think I am see some nasal discharge, and is he sneezing and does he have any new resistance to flight, where he does not really want to fly?
> 
> Karyn


I haven't noticed Velvet sneezing... or any decrease in wanting to fly, though he's a prisoner and only gets to fly around inside the loft; the aviary is not big enough to fly in (my birds are still down at Lou's; will be at my loft with much bigger aviary soon). He has to fly if he wants to sit on his nest; it's on the top row, and food, water, and twigs (tobacco stems) are down low. 

I see several kinds of doxycycline at the suppliers' sites; which kind is best? Or are there several "best" depending on the circumstances?

What strength and formulation of Baytril is best for pigeons? My vet said they use several different kinds, depending on the situation, but didn't know which is appropriate for pigeons. I see a few places online selling it that don't require a Rx... may try one of those once I know what I'm looking for.

ETA: latest poop


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## pdpbison

rfboyer said:


> I have 2 strengths:
> 100mg that are coated pills (supposed to be better tolerated when digestion is in disorder)
> 60mg - package claims "1 pill, 1 day" (which is probably "underkill," right?)



Far as the Birds I get in, no way is a one-time dose going to more than begin to maybe start a regimen.

But, 60 mG in 24 hours, either at one time, or, two 30 mG doses 12 hours apart, would likely be about right for one of his size/weight.

You can just break a Tablet in half, and break each half in half, thus making four smaller and very easy to swallow bits...so, easy then to have him on your lap, open his Beak, and put in one or two parts.

Any sharp edge will do, formica edge, whatever to break a Tablet like that.




> If I keep him in the house for the week I give this, is there anything special I should do to reacclimate him to being in a relatively cold loft when he's better?



He will not need anything for getting re-adjusted to the Loft...




> And, should I bring his hen into the house, too, so she doesn't get "stolen" by another cockbird while he's gone? (They have only been together since July so I don't know how strong their bond is; his previous hen died last May.)



Might be a good idea, and good for both their moralle to keep them together.



Look around the loft also for any signs of 'flat, paint-like' Urates...in case anyone else is coming down with Canker or other illness which can have that effect.






> OK, I'll continue with the ointment. Yes to the 'squig' as well as patting some around the rest of the inflamed area.



I do not know anything about 'One Eye Colds'.


I have seen quite a few infected Eyes or infected Eye injuries, and, these cleared up with the Opthomological Antibiotic Ointment...or, that and Oral doses of Pennicillin in one instance, where the infection was really outrageously heavy and seemed to require something else or additionally, and, in that instance, the Pennicillin appeared to do the trick. But I stayed on with the Ointment as well.



Given you have not seen any resolution to his inflamed Eye so far, Pennicillin might be something to consider.


He could have just happened to get a One Eye Cold I guess, after possibly injuring his Eye on the Brim of your Hat.

Or, he injured his Eye and then also had several kinds of Bacteria begin to infect it, where, the Antibiotic Ointment took care of some of the Bacteria, but, other kinds of Bacteria may remain vexing his Eye.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato

Robin, if you get the Birdbiotic (from Thomas Labs), which are 100mg Doxycycline capsules, you should be good and if your Vet will give you say 25mL of 5% or 10% Baytril to have on hand, you should be good with this as well. With the Metronidazole, the 100mg pills you have should not, IMHO, be given in most circumstances, as this would be at or above the highest range I've seen recommended for Metronidazole dosing of 250mg/kg q24h. The most common dosing suggestion I have seen for Metronidazole, and the one I almost always use, for pigeons is either 50mg/kg q12h or 100mg/kg q24h, which means a 350g bird should get 17.5mg twice a day or 35mg once a day. There a a few companies that make either a 60mg pill or a 62.5 mg for once a day dosing, which I myself consider the higher range of dosing, but seem to be in common use for our birds and I have not, as yet, heard of any ill effects from using this higher dose. If anything I would give 1/2 of one of the 60mg pills, q12h, for 4 days, as the common recommended dosing schedule for this size pill/dose is for 3-5 days.

The thing with one eye colds is that many times they are just a localized infection that either an antibiotic ointments/drops will help clear up. However, sometimes, what the picture shows, is a symptom of a systemic infection sometimes cause by bacteria, either chlamydia or mycoplasma bacteria. If this were to be the case, Velvet will need either Doxycycline or Baytril for treatment, sometimes both drugs are give together for a synergistic effect.

I would isolate Velvet for now if possible, treat with the Metronidazole and if you do use something just local and topical on the eye, if it does not look like it's improving within 48h or he looks a little worse than better or other symptoms start to present I would start him on systemic antibiotics (the Chloramphenicol you have can be used until the Doxycycline comes in). If he is one of the birds that were part of your round worm problem a number of months ago and he only got flock treated I would also treat him for worms on an individual basis as well. Also, observe your other birds for any sneezing or other respiratory symptoms in them. 

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Thanks, Karyn & Phil...

I've given Velvet the metronidazole and put fresh ointment on his eye, and tucked him in for the night. 
He is isolated; I brought him into the house this afternoon. 
In his cage he has a drinker, with plain water in it right now, and a small dish of the usual seed mix I feed, with some extra safflower seeds on top as a peace offering  
(since I know he will be awake way before I am in the morning)


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## Dobato

Sounds good, I don't know if you saw the edit I did in my post above, but I went back and mentioned the Chloramphenicol you have on hand can be used for treatment for both mycoplasma and chlamydia, until the Doxycycline arrives if need be (I will help you with dosing amounts). Will he need wormed?

Karyn


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## re lee

You can get puffer which is a powder med that you puff into the eye. Works on pink eye in cattle and works great one 1 eye colds on the birds. Most vet supply places will have it.


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Sounds good, I don't know if you saw the edit I did in my post above, but I went back and mentioned the Chloramphenicol you have on hand can be used for treatment for both mycoplasma and chlamydia, until the Doxycycline arrives if need be (I will help you with dosing amounts). Will he need wormed?
> 
> Karyn


Velvet has been part of the flock since the roundworm problem, but I don't recall finding evidence of worms in the droppings in "his" nest box the last two times I flock-treated for worms (granted that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...) but I can give direct dose of ivermectin or worm-out gel if necessary. Would there be a connection between the eye problem and worms? 

The Chloramphenicol are tabs of 250mg... what is recommended pigeon dose? The label only gives information for dogs. I have a good sharp pill splitter...

I heard some, but not a lot of sneezing in general about a month ago, when all of the birds were moulting heavily, generally during preening and sometimes after drinking with excess enthusiasm, but haven't noticed any other signs of respiratory problems. Now they seem to be mostly done moulting and there's very rare sneezing.


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## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> Velvet has been part of the flock since the roundworm problem, but I don't recall finding evidence of worms in the droppings in "his" nest box the last two times I flock-treated for worms (granted that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...) but I can give direct dose of ivermectin or worm-out gel if necessary. Would there be a connection between the eye problem and worms?
> 
> The Chloramphenicol are tabs of 250mg... what is recommended pigeon dose? The label only gives information for dogs. I have a good sharp pill splitter...
> 
> I heard some, but not a lot of sneezing in general about a month ago, when all of the birds were moulting heavily, generally during preening and sometimes after drinking with excess enthusiasm, but haven't noticed any other signs of respiratory problems. Now they seem to be mostly done moulting and there's very rare sneezing.


No direct connection per se, other that a worm infection could weaken his system in general and make him more vulnerable to infection, but there is something reminiscent of your first photo of his droppings that has a look to it of few photos you've posted before minus the worms, when you had that problem. I would use the Ivermectin you have, just as you used it before, and see if he produces any worms.

The dosing for Chloramphenicol is 100mg/kg q12h, this means that if Velvet weighed in at 375mg, he would receive a dose 37.5mg of Chloramphenicol every 12 hours (if he weighs more or less and you need help calculating the dose, let me know). Might be best to crush 2 pills up as fine as you can and add 5mL of pancake syrup to this and stir in well (this will be a 10% suspension 100mg/mL) and dose with a 1cc syringe at the 0.37cc mark (this is about 6 1/2 drops) a little at a time to the front of his mouth and let him tongue it down. Refrigerate between use and stir very well before drawing a dose.

OK, good with your other birds, this may be something localized and may respond quickly to localized treatment, but you are at least prepared now for other eventualities.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Sunday morning report:

Here's the overnight Velvetpoo... I think it looks a little better, or am I wishfully thinking?








Signs of preening are good, right? He's pretty much finished moulting.

The eye is still irritated, but seems a little less swollen and lighter pink. 
I'll get a new pic of the eye when my husband gets up; Velvet knows what the camera is and dislikes it (when I take pix in the loft he wingslaps when it flashes ) and will need to be held for the photo. 

Velvet ate a decent quantity of regular seed mix before I got up this morning. I haven't seen him drink, but I'm confident he is drinking, since he is eating. 
Should he get ACV (or something else) in his water when I refill it? 

I had him stand on the edge of the bathtub while I tidied his cage this morning, and he looked around speculativelyk, flew around a little and was not easy to catch (running, flying, grunting) when it was time to administer meds. He's had a direct dose of ivermectin, per Karyn's advice, and I put more ointment on his eye. I gave him some safflower seeds for being a good boy.


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## Dobato

Robin, not wishful thinking, the droppings do look better this morning, and indications of preening are always good to see.

Yes, he could get some ACV in the water, just make sure he is still drinking well, as the occasional bird is put off by the taste. Try about 2 tablespoons a gallon and see how that goes. The rest sounds good, will wait for an updated photo of the eye area.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Thanks Karyn,

I'll add some ACV when I freshen his water. 
He "should" not object to it; the flock gets ACV in their water a few times a week at 3T/gallon.


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## pdpbison

HIs poops/urates are looking better...nice to hear he is also feelng better!

ACV Water will be good to do indeed.


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## rfboyer

Evening update:

Found 2 worms in midafternoon droppings, but none since. Pic below:








Droppings since this pic have been unremarkable; similar to previous pic.
Evidence of pecking in seed dish, but I don't know how much he ate. 

Here's the bad eye this afternoon... 








I haven't caught him scratching it, but looking at the kerfluffled feathers, think he might have done; they were smooth when I applied the ointment this morning. Dark area on feathers is from the ointment...
How often should I apply ointment? I don't have much left (this was a tube of mine from my eye doctor), but can probably beg more from my cats' vet, if the stuff they give for cats & dogs is appropriate. 

And a pic of the good eye for reference... 








feathers are sticking out around the bad eye, which leads me to think he may be working it over. If he does, I can do him an Elizabethan collar... and hope he doesn't hate me forever for it.


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## pdpbison

Hi Robin,


Yipes!


So there are "Worms"..!



Well, who knows how many more are waiting for some 'Moxydectin-Plus' to make their debut into the outside World also?



Yeahhhh...make the 'Elizabethan Collar', and, he will forgive you, no worries there.



What do you have on hand for Worming Medicines?


Phil
L v


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## rfboyer

pdpbison said:


> So there are "Worms"..!
> Well, who knows how many more are waiting for some 'Moxydectin-Plus' to make their debut into the outside World also?
> What do you have on hand for Worming Medicines?


I gave Velvet a direct dose of Ivermectin this morning.
Two or three more, definitely "adult" roundworms in the latest poop... 
but, he doesn't seem to be "loaded" with them, unless they are taking a while to be expelled... 

Wormers I have:
Ivermectin for direct dosing (.15 cc down throat w/ tiny syringe as advised previously) and also the flock treatment version
Wormout gel (Praziquantel & Oxfendazole)
Permectin II (Permethrin & ?? - have only used this for environment cleanup)



> Yeahhhh...make the 'Elizabethan Collar', and, he will forgive you, no worries there.


Any suggestions how to close it so it can fasten/refasten, or a new one each time?
If it needs to be one-use or disposable, is card weight paper OK?
Is it possible to make it "flat" enough to get my fingers on his head (to administer meds, etc) without taking it off? 
Should it fit right up under his chin or should it sit closer to the shoulders? 
I understand the basic shape, but not sure how steep or flat the cone should be; are there recommended dimensions? 
I'm not sure what's required to keep the foot away from the eye...will have another look at the one Chompie Puppy posted for another kind of bird...

::hustles off to find previous threads about Elizabethan collars::


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## pdpbison

Hi robin,



The Ivermectin' should be friendly-enough to the Bird...so, may as well use it...then follow up of course, in like ten or twelve days with another treatment or series.



I have never made a 'Collar' to have any personal experience with one or it's management.


I would think, light Pasteboard or thin Plastic should be fine, Cardboard from like a 'Kleenex' or Cornflake Box or something, and, that one could pad the inside aperature with a folded 3 or 4 times strip of paper Towel taped on to the Collar...


And, if the Collar had an overlapping 'slit'' allowing easy installation or removal, the slit could be simply Taped.


You could also just make a simple 'Shoe' out of some thin padded Pasteboard, and tape his Foot to that.


This would be about the same as one does for occasions of string Feet where one has to retrain a Toe or Toes to be straight again...so the 'Shoe' is a small trunkated Trangle, with small 'V' notches for each Toe Nail to fit into, then the Foot is lightly Taped onto the Shoe.


He might resent this less than a 'Collar', but, who knows, he might abide a Collar just fine too ( but I would be surprised if he did! ).



Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer

pdpbison said:


> Hi robin,
> I have never made a 'Collar' to have any personal experience with one or it's management.
> 
> I would think, light Pasteboard or thin Plastic should be fine, Cardboard from like a 'Kleenex' or Cornflake Box or something, and, that one could pad the inside aperature with a folded 3 or 4 times strip of paper Towel taped on to the Collar...
> 
> And, if the Collar had an overlapping 'slit'' allowing easy installation or removal, the slit could be simply Taped.
> 
> You could also just make a simple 'Shoe' out of some thin padded Pasteboard, and tape his Foot to that.
> 
> This would be about the same as one does for occasions of string Feet where one has to retrain a Toe or Toes to be straight again...so the 'Shoe' is a small trunkated Trangle, with small 'V' notches for each Toe Nail to fit into, then the Foot is lightly Taped onto the Shoe.
> 
> He might resent this less than a 'Collar', but, who knows, he might abide a Collar just fine too ( but I would be surprised if he did! ).


I found a link Karyn (I think) had posted to collars that someone is selling on e-bay (in the "Hawked" thread), and the product page has sort of a general size chart... but the collars are for hook-billed birds, and I don't know which of them is about the size of a pigeon (at least at the neck circumference). 

I will try building the collar, since I suspect that if I put a shoe on his foot, he will rub his eye on his shoulder  (which may be what he's doing already?). 

I might have some clear plastic around that has enough body to work... I think being able to see through it will annoy/upset him less.


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## pdpbison

Yeahhhh, just make one, and if you are not satisfied, try again amd make another one.


You are right about the rubbing-on-their-shoulder, I forgot about that...they will indeed do both the Toe Nail 'Scratching' at it, and the Shoulder-Rub thing...so...the 'Collar' it is then...



Good luck!



Glue a little 'Doily' on it for the full 'Elizabethan' effect!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato

Robin, I thought his droppings had a familiar look to them and while, as you say, not loaded with worms, it doesn't take but a few to continue the cycle in re-infection. So now we have two confirmed birds with worms after your flock treatment, as much as I hate to say it, you may need to individually dose each and every bird you have, as it seems flock treatment is unreliable and I think without doing this, your birds may never be clear of these worms, and this is not good at all for them.

Went back and forth between todays photo of the eye and yesterday's and I can see no noticeable improvement, maybe different in person. If not even a bit better tomorrow, we may want to try starting him on some Albon, before the Chloramphenicol, had a look and chlamydia can be treated with sulfadimethoxine (Albon).

Don't forget to order the Baytril and Doxy.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> ... as much as I hate to say it, you may need to individually dose each and every bird you have, as it seems flock treatment is unreliable and I think without doing this, your birds may never be clear of these worms, and this is not good at all for them.


They had another flock treatment in late September... but in early October a bird came back from who-knows-where (probably one that got sold at a general auction or flea market, and escaped becoming a target or soup), and I only isolated him for a few days before letting him in with the others (they are not in my new loft yet, and if he didn't bring worms with him, then the building has worms and I've done all I can with it...) My plan is to worm them individually shortly before I move them, so they come to my loft as clean as they can... what would be the best time interval between worming & moving? I'd like to be reasonably sure they expel any worms at the old place! 



> Went back and forth between todays photo of the eye and yesterday's and I can see no noticeable improvement, maybe different in person. If not even a bit better tomorrow, we may want to try starting him on some Albon, before the Chloramphenicol, had a look and chlamydia can be treated with sulfadimethoxine (Albon).
> Don't for get to order the Baytril and Doxy.
> Karyn


The sulfadimethoxine I have isn't Albon brand; it is Coxi Plus, 25% sulfadimethoxine sodium... the scoop is one of those weird ones with a little line on it, so I'm not really sure what the measurement is. Eyeball thinks probably a scant teaspoon. Label dose says 1 scoop per 2 litres to be mixed in water, so I'm not sure how to use it for a single bird. 

I'm hoping that the Elizabethan collar helps; he will wear it tonight (as soon as I get it finished; I found a decent piece of laminating plastic for the collar and some soft foam tube shaped insulation stuff for the padding) and we'll see what we get in the morning. 

Should he get another metronidazole, too? If so, I should give it before I put the collar on him. He will think I'm Tomas Torquemada before this is done...


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## pdpbison

Really ham up how Handsome he is in the new 'collar', offer lots of 'positive mirroring' and vivid compliments, try and make it convincing...it might help.


Worming wise, figure two weeks lead time I'd think for the two successive regimens to have time to do their work with their ten or twelve day interval between.


Should not matter for Pilling if he has his Collar on or not...since the Collar is not going to be right up again' his Chin I don't think.


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## Dobato

Robin, the sulfa you have, the 25% sulfadimethoxine, is really just a generic form of Sulmut/Albon, but instead of 12.5%, it is at 25%. The instructions for the 12.5% are 1 1/2 - 2 tablespoons (22.5mL - 30mL) a gallon. If you use 1 tablespoon of the 25% a gallon you should be good. The quicker we get the eye cleared up, the better, then collar won't be an issue. I agree with Phil on what he said on timing for de-worming your birds. I would do the Metro for three days.

By the way, I just wanted to really compliment you for the very good quality photos you always supply in your threads. Good quality photos, IMHO, are half the battle sometimes in providing the help that people need. I wish that everyone that requested help, could put up photos like yours, it makes things so much easier, when trying to come to certain conclusions.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Robin, the sulfa you have, the 25% sulfadimethoxine, is really just a generic form of Sulmut/Albon, but instead of 12.5%, it is at 25%. The instructions for the 12.5% are 1 1/2 - 2 tablespoons (22.5mL - 30mL) a gallon. If you use 1 tablespoon of the 25% a gallon you should be good. The quicker we get the eye cleared up, the better, then collar won't be an issue. I agree with Phil on what he said on timing for de-worming your birds. I would do the Metro for three days.


Thanks Karyn... 
I'm starting to get muddled... should I be giving him the sulfadimethoxine in his drinking water, or a direct dose? 
I'm assuming the instructions are for mixing into drinking water, but how do I know he's drinking the right amount? 
When I used Sulmet before it was the liquid, mixed with either formula, cocktail, or a combination of meds, and tubed in (which I hope Velvet won't need, since he eats & drinks on his own, so far). The Coxi Plus is powder; and the scoop looks like a smallish teaspoon. 

Sorry to be a such a nuisance, I'm too tired to think straight... will give Velvet his metronidazole presently. 

I'm waiting for the glue on his collar padding to dry and then I will put it on him... I used glue that doesn't have fumes, but it doesn't dry as fast as the nasty stuff. The first try, I made it too big, and it took him less than 15 minutes to figure out how to get out of it  I've reduced it a little, but I don't think it will be too tight.


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## pdpbison

You could try mixing a one-quarter Gallon supply, which is to say, a Quart, and see if he drinks it.

If he does, then, good...if not, then other means would be the resort.


A Quart ought to last him most of a Week anyway, if not a full Week.

If the regimen needs to continue, then just make another Quart.


If the Solution for your concentration of Raw Medicine is supposed to be 1 Tablespoon to a Gallon, then, 3/4rs of one Teaspoon ( err on the heavy side if eyeballing it ) would be about right for a Quart. In theory, there are Three Teaspoons to one Tablespoon.


I know the Pigeons here, being this is usually an Arid clime, drink much more than those in Europe or the Seaboards or Midwest.

These in-the-water deals always assume an average drinking rate, and, of course, this may not be so for any particular Bird in question, such as mine, definitely, so I have to ease back on the amount per Gallon, and, someone in a particularly cool and Humid Clime, can usually err a little on the heavy side and all is well.


Since we want to see the Meds happenning for a systemic address which will include the Eye, if the making a Quart sounds goosd to you, may as well get on it now and get him started before bed.


If using a low flat bottomed Coffee Cup he could tip over, just Twist-Tie the Cup's Handle to the Cage side, or, devise some means anyway, so you can positively see how the Medicated Water is dis-appearing, and not have to worry about spills confusing the matter of how much he drank, verses how much he spilled


Maybe tomorrow one of us can co-relate the desired dose-per-day, with the concentration the Quart would have, with how much ie is actually drinking, and see then roughly how many fluid Ounces of the Solution he needs to be drinking per day, to see if things are proceding more or less on par with the intended dose.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, before with Junior, she was quite critical in condition so we did not want to chance her not getting enough med into her by medicating through her water, we wanted to be exactly sure of how much she was getting, so we chose do do a concentrated dose by mouth.

On the other hand, since Velvet is still acting OK, treating by water would have been fine, IMO. However, when in your last post you reminded that the med you have is in a powdered form (the 25% sulfadimethoxine I am familiar with from a local feed store comes in 25% gallon concentrate) I had another look at your meds list and see that you have some sulfa/trim (TMS) and based on the concentration you say it is, we can use that instead at a dose of 0.30cc (roughly six drops) twice a day, then there are no doubts in his meds at all. Plus the sulfa/trim is a little more effective than a sulfa med without the Trimethoprim added.

The infection may very well just a result of a strep or staph infection (outside of the chlamydia and mycoplasma mentioned before) that is localized and the sulfa/trim will do well for these as well.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

I put the Elizabethan collar on Velvet and applied ointment to his eye when I got up this morning, and he did not get the collar off, though I heard him trying to. 

I took it off him a little while ago so he can eat & drink (it's late lunchtime here) and gave him .30cc of the SulfaTrim down his throat, per Karyn's suggestion. 

He flew up and sat on my shoulder (he's never perched on me before; I guess he knows that he's not as "gettable" on my shoulder) while I changed his PT then watched me refresh his ACV water (clean/refill a small drinker that looks like the big ones in the loft) since I'd added Sulmet to what he had overnight. 

I'm giving him the liberty of the bathroom for a little while before I put the collar back on him. 
Then he'll have to go back in the cage while I feed & water the other pij; they are getting a very late lunch today.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, sounds good. I know it may be obvious, but make sure you change out the med water for plain now the he is on oral meds.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Velvet wearing his collar... I had to put it back on him since I'll be out for a few hours... you can see how much he loves it  








I think he drank, but don't think he ate anything, so I'll let him out of it again and sit with him for a while later this afternoon/evening to give him a chance to eat.
When I put the collar back on, I also applied more ointment, and found this item  peeking out from under his lower eyelid;








At first I just thought it was a gob of mucus, so I picked it up with a clean cotton swab. It's kind of squishy solid, like a chunk of sebum. Guessing it might be pus? 
It was a lot whiter but darkened (oxidised?) quickly... and there was a little divot in the skin where it came from, that didn't look like an open wound, but more like the divot you get in the palm of your hand when you lean on a piece of rounded gravel for a minute or two. (I'll get Greg to take eye pics later).


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Robin, sounds good. I know it may be obvious, but make sure you change out the med water for plain now the he is on oral meds.
> 
> Karyn


Yes, that's the main reason I changed his water (still has ACV; if that is not good, I'll change it again when I let him out of the collar). 
The drinker didn't have debris of any kind in it, but I didn't want to "double-dip" him on meds.


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## pdpbison

Try squishing the 'item' using the back of your finger nail, or smear it ot with a finger tip, on a sheet of white paper -see if it has anything for an inclusion in the interior...maybe a grain of Sand or bit of Grit or something.


Might just be inflamitory debris purely, but, just curious.



If they get jabbed or raked in the Eye by someone else's Toe Nail, there could be anything Grem-wise of course.


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## Dobato

Robin, I think, as Phil mentions, this is inflammatory debris (spent leukocytes) or pigeon pus, as they do not make pus like we do, their pus is thick like yellowish soft cheese. Glad we started Velvet on oral antibiotics today, I am hoping we see a rapid response within a day or two to this treatment.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Beautiful job on the Collar by-the-way, really nice looking, nice shape and everything...outstanding!


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## rfboyer

I figured the thing I removed from Velvet's eyelid was a hunk of pus, or its equivalent, though it didn't smell at all. He's having his "dinner break" from the collar now, and has been eating seed, though he stops eating, jumps up, and parks himself in nesting posture in the corner of the cage when I come into the room.  

I will take pic of the collar alone before I put it back on him; it got tossed about in the scuffle to recapture him after liberating him into the room while I changed his paper, etc. so now it needs to be cleaned and the old tape pulled off it before he can wear it again. 

Collar is made of the non-sticky half of a self-sticking full page laminating set, cut ~7" diameter. 

Then I measured in from the circumference ~ 2 3/8" for the inside circle, cut a radius and the "donut hole" out, then cut a pie-wedge to make it cone-shaped. 

The padding is ~1/2" thick closed cell foam tubing that's used for weather-stripping drafty windows in old houses, sliced more-or-less halfway through (similar to pipe insulation, only this stuff is solid through) longways like a hotdog bun, with the inside edge of the collar glued into the slice. 
I used a craft glue that's used for applying beads, rhinestones, etc. to garments, that doesn't have nasty fumes, but took several hours to dry.

Then made opposing slots to join it together. It's unstable unless taped, but the tape also keeps the tab ends along the cone. Scotch tape is plenty strong enough to keep it on the pigeon. 

@Phil - I did squish the "item" that I took from Velvet's eyelid and it was kind of soft rubbery and sort of split open and flattened out, but didn't smear appreciably. Did not discover any potential irritant within it. 

@Karyn - Either he really wasn't feeling good in general, or else he's getting over the intimidation of being in a strange place. He's already getting feisty; he struggles with the syringe; I may have to use a tube for future "down the throat" doses; his mouth & throat are so much bigger than Junior's, and he's a lot stronger (and more indignant).

I'm concerned about hurting his eye when I have hold of his head, and I don't want the syringe contents to go down the wrong hole while he's thrashing around. 
If I make the room relatively dark, is it possible he'd thrash around less? I see fairly well in the dark... but don't want to try it if it's a hare-brained idea.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, I would probably take a more gentle approach where I would wrap him "burrito" style with a small towel, where just a bit of his head was poking out, then pinch off the towel under his beak area and give the dose to the side of his beak one drop at a time to the front of his mouth (as mentioned before .30mL is about 6 drops) and let him tongue it down. If you cut one of your 1cc syringe tips at a 45 degree angle, with a razor knife, it will help slip it between his beak. By pinching off the towel you may be able to avoid putting pressure on the eye area. If all of this proves to be a hassle, we can just do it for a few days, to get his system loaded with the TMS, and then calculate a suitable water dose. 

It would help if you were to measure the water that you put out in the morning, then measure what is left in his dish the next morning, so we can get a fairly accurate accounting of how much water Velvet drinks over 24h, this number may be useful to you in the future as well.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Robin, I would probably take a more gentle approach where I would wrap him "burrito" style with a small towel, where just a bit of his head was poking out, then pinch off the towel under his beak area and give the dose to the side of his beak one drop at a time to the front of his mouth (as mentioned before .30mL is about 6 drops) and let him tongue it down. If you cut one of your 1cc syringe tips at a 45 degree angle, with a razor knife, it will help slip it between his beak. By pinching off the towel you may be able to avoid putting pressure on the eye area. If all of this proves to be a hassle, we can just do it for a few days, to get his system loaded with the TMS, and then calculate a suitable water dose.


He's already burrito'd when I give meds, but he dodges with his head. I hope I'm gentle; I try to be, especially since he has such a mustachio'd beak cere... I could easily avoid his eye if he would kindly refrain from struggling. I can try the sneak it into the beak method; I have some extra 1cc syringes.

The TMS I have is cherry flavored, for children (found among Lou's pij meds - I think he used it as a flock treatment, since he wrote a quantity per gallon note on the bottle), so I thought shooting it down his throat might be easier on him since he wouldn't have to taste it. I hate fruit flavored syrupy meds, and figured a pigeon would too... do pigeons like sweet stuff? 



> It would help if you were to measure the water that you put out in the morning, then measure what is left in his dish the next morning, so we can get a fairly accurate accounting of how much water Velvet drinks over 24h, this number may be useful to you in the future as well.


The entire drinker holds a pint, but I've been only filling it with 8oz at a time, so I don't throw so much away. I will have to find some other relatively unspillable container for water, since I can't empty the drinker easily into another container. I liked this one because it typically doesn't get fouled, and figured it would look kind of familiar to them... 

::goes to rummage through cupboards, etc::


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## pdpbison

I use simply various short, flat bottomed Coffee Mugs.

These hold about 8 Fuid OUnces.

If need be, I elevate them slightly on a piece of Woor or other, and or also Twist Tie their Handle to the Cage Side to prevent tipping.


If the Bird has a Brick or Rock in the Cage to perch on, they are less likely to elect to try perching on the Water Cup.


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## rfboyer

Late Evening Update:

After Velvet was liberated from the collar for dinner, I had to make him put it back on while I went out to get some things, but when I got back he had managed to get out of it!  He doesn't seem to have worked over his eye, though.
A pic of the collar, unoccupied, with tape removed:









I gave him his evening TMS via the sneak-in-the-beak method; he still struggled a little but it worked out OK, though a little bit got onto the towel instead of into the bird, I think he got a decent dose. I had loaded the syringe with a "generous" .30cc since I anticipated a little dribbling.

Here's a picture of Velvet's eye late this evening. It is open more, a lot less red, and a bit less swollen. 








After the photo call, Velvet perched on my hand and rode around the room for a little while before I delivered him back to the cage. He was really a good sport; he hates the flash, and I took several shots trying to use the mirror, but ended up holding the camera at arms' length.

Late afternoon and early evening, found 2 more large roundworms among the droppings. I don't think Velvet ate much yesterday; the droppings have decent looking urates but not a lot of fecal matter, though the fecal matter is formed (squiggles), not mush or splatty. He ate a fair amount of seed later in the day today, so I hope to see significantly more droppings in the morning.


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## Dobato

Robin, thanks for the photos. I thought we just might see a rapid response to oral AB treatment (adding to the topical treatment), I agree the eye does show real improvement, this is a good thing. We'll keep him on the oral meds for a week and reassess then on stopping or adding a few more days of treatment.

He also may feel a bit better from being de-wormed to account for his improved state of being and activity, don't forget to mark down the date for his second course of Ivermectin. Very nice job with the Elizabethan collar as well. Yes, the sneak in method can lose a bit of med and you did the right thing in judging this and making up for this fact.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Wow!


Good call Karyn on what to do for the Eye...the eye is indeed looking so much better now with only this short time so far of the regimen.


Good going Robin!



This might be the most he has ever been handled?


If so, he is managing to abide very well.


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## rfboyer

Velvet's eye is still looking better, and since he doesn't seem to be scratching at it, I'm leaving the collar off for a few hours, to let him eat & drink... he's been doing other preening, and downy bits are sticking to the feathers on his head & shoulder that got gooped by the ointment. Is there a practical way to de-goop those, or just let the ointment "wear off?"

I don't think he's eaten much; his last poop was mostly slimy bile but still had decent urates, so I refreshed his seed dish and talked to him about it... told him I hope he will have his "lunch" while I go give the others their "lunch." 

I'm concerned about his apparent lack of interest in eating since the worming. I imagine the antibiotic may have put his digestion out of balance... I'll recheck how much he's eaten and drunk in a few hours when I return from taking care of the others. His water is now in a coffee mug, started with 1 1/3 c. from the measuring cup around 10am (a 12oz mug is the smallest non-tippy vessel I could find ).

BTW, I have Divet tabs here... which seem to be the same drug combo as the TMS liquid I've been giving him. 
Is the liquid better tolerated? I'm thinking I'd have better control of the dose with tabs. Opinions?

Also, I have baytril, doxycycline, and colloidal silver en route. I ordered the colloidal silver in addition to the others because I've read here of its usefulness for a variety of things & thought it would be good to have some on hand.

If I can figure out a way to fit my bigger iso cage (a stacked double ferret cage that I recently acquired at a yard sale) into my extra bathroom, I am thinking about bringing Lena, Velvet's hen, in to keep him company, since he will have to stay in the house for a while to get his meds. Is this a good or a bad idea? So far as I can tell, she's in good health (poop in the nestbox looks good & otherwise "healthy bird" behavior), but will doubtless also need to be wormed.

@Phil: Velvet hasn't been handled a lot in the past few years, but was one of Lou's racing team; he usually puts his feet "back" as soon as I pick him up (unless he knows it's burrito time). He seems relatively comfortable perching on my hand, but has seen some of the others fly to my hand and perch there...


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## Dobato

Robin, glad to hear his eye is steadly improving. Since things are going well with the oral dosing, I don't think we will now need to resort to medicating his water to dose his meds to him, but finish with the measuring of the water, as like I said, maybe one day getting a number on how much water Velvet drinks each day may prove useful.

With his eating, the meds (both AB and de-wormer) could have upset him a bit, I would try some of the things they usually can't resit to perk up his food intake, such as raw sunflower hearts, safflower seeds and chopped up raw Spanish peanuts. If that does not do the trick, we may need to supplement him by hand for a bit, let us know how the treats go. There is also the possibility that he is missing his mate Lena. I am thinking with such a rapid response to the oral AB (and lack of any other symptoms), the infection very well might be a localized thing and Lena could then come and spend some time with him and you can then de-worm her too.

Meds are on their way, very good, with the Divet, you're right same drug combo as the TMS liquid you have. the thing is with Divet, it's one of those pigeon meds that although they tell you whats in each tablet, they are not very clear just how much med is in each pill. Although, I don't really have a problem following manufacturer's instructions, when I am medicating or giving advice on medicating, I really do like to know exactly how much real med is going into a bird and with Divet, when the company says 1/4-1/2 pill twice a day, I have no idea just how many mg a bird is receiving. Best use up the TMS liquid you have (plus it seems to be working well), as it will not have the shelf life of the pills and one day you may need some, down the road.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi Robin,


I also think allowing him the companionshiop or at least company of his mate would be fine to do, and also may be a moralle booster.


He might have a clog-of-Worms going on which could take a few days to pass.



Images of some fresh poops?


If he would tolerate it...him in the 'Burrito ( and legs 'back' so the Feet just stick out past the Cloth ) you could do 'Seed Pop' with a pre measured amount of Seeds, like say, a one shot Shotglass full.

Just make sure his Larynx/Trachial aperature is in fact not dialated first...if it is, then skip it, if it is normal, and closing well between breaths, and opening only a teeny bit ( which would be normal ) then 'Seed-Pop' with small to medium size Seeds would or should be safe to do.


Small to Medium size Seeds, doing four or five Seeds to a 'Pop'.


That would be a decent enough little Meal and it might even get him pecking.


It can 'Prime the Pump' sometimes, as well as that he could use some decent chow around now anyway.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Meds are on their way, very good, with the Divet, you're right same drug combo as the TMS liquid you have. the thing is with Divet, it's one of those pigeon meds that although they tell you whats in each tablet, they are not very clear just how much med is in each pill. . .
> when the company says 1/4-1/2 pill twice a day, I have no idea just how many mg a bird is receiving. Best use up the TMS liquid you have (plus it seems to be working well), as it will not have the shelf life of the pills and one day you may need some, down the road.


I have nearly a pint of the liquid TMS, and the stuff is already expired, but not by too long. 
That's one reason I was hoping the Divet would be substitutable. I would also be wary about not knowing how much is in the pill, but they've been recommended so frequently in the forum that I got some for stock... is it a good guess that these meds are "forgiving" of dosage inaccuracy, since the information isn't precise?

Midday poops have more fecal matter, and one of them is even half-decently formed, but the urates don't look as good 








He rummaged through the pot of seeds and picked out his favorites, so I've given him a separate small pot of safflower seeds.
If he eats most of those, I will also give him sunflower hearts.

Here's Velvet's midafternoon eye pic:








He must have blinked a little when he flinched at the flash; it's actually open a little more than it looks in the picture. Also the cere is getting flatter against his head, instead of puffed out, though the pic doesn't really show it well. And he hasn't kerfluffled his head feathers since overnight, without the collar. 

I explained to him about the camera while I was taking the poo pic, and told him that if he'd sit still, I wouldn't have to pick him up to take his pic, and he did! LOL!


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## Dobato

Looking good, I guess we will just have to work with him through this period of inappatence. Many meds are efficacious for a good period of time past expiry date, sometimes years, liquid ones, not as long, but much longer than one would think, just keep the concentrate in the refrigerator to help extend its life.

I agree, the Divet seems like a popular med and I have heard of no ill effects from its use. TMS if often recommend for young birds, which I take as a sign it is a forgiving med, but it's just the TMS suspension allows us to be much more precise, which I like.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Hi robin,


I just do half-a-tab of the 'DIVET' for an average size/weight Pigeon, and no worries on trying to have an entirely precise dose...it is pretty forgiving apparently in that regard.


With respect to things/conditions in general, and, to the latest Urate signature - I would resume the Metronidazole if it were me, and do it for a week or so. ( I do not think the Canker had entirely abated, and or, what ever had remained of it, may be now increasing ).



Eye looks so much better!

How 'bout an image showing us his other Eye?

That was we can see what this eye used to be like, and or, shall be like, again once all is well.


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Quazar

Just a thought, (nothing really medical) if Velvet doesnt like the flash in general (also he may be more sensitive to it at the mo anyway) try without flash, but use a table lamp/angle poise positioned behind the camera to throw some light on the subject.


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## rfboyer

pdpbison said:


> I also think allowing him the companionshiop or at least company of his mate would be fine to do, and also may be a moralle booster.


When Greg got home we measured the big cage & the space, but it won't fit where I wanted to put it, so I can't bring Lena into the house until I figure something else out...



> If he would tolerate it...him in the 'Burrito ( and legs 'back' so the Feet just stick out past the Cloth ) you could do 'Seed Pop' with a pre measured amount of Seeds, like say, a one shot Shotglass full.
> 
> Just make sure his Larynx/Trachial aperature is in fact not dialated first...if it is, then skip it, if it is normal, and closing well between breaths, and opening only a teeny bit ( which would be normal ) then 'Seed-Pop' with small to medium size Seeds would or should be safe to do.


I'm not sure how to tell if his trachial aperture is dilated or normal. 
When I make him open his beak wide, the inside of his mouth looks like the Grand Canyon to me.  
I have not noticed what the trachial aperture does between breaths, mostly because I'm so focused on getting the meds down the right hole. 

...(This post was started about 4 hours ago, but had an interruption by irate spouse because some equipment didn't work right, and a subsequent trip to hdwe store, etc.)...

Velvet's eating! He tossed seed around digging for the sunflower hearts I'd mixed in his seed pot... and ate a handful of safflower seed and some of the regular mix. I've given him some more sunflower hearts as incentive/reward...

ETA: he drank 1.5 oz of water from late morning to ~8pm (no spills, woohoo!)

Here's the 8pm poop picture:


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## rfboyer

pdpbison said:


> I just do half-a-tab of the 'DIVET' for an average size/weight Pigeon, and no worries on trying to have an entirely precise dose...it is pretty forgiving apparently in that regard.
> 
> With respect to things/conditions in general, and, to the latest Urate signature - I would resume the Metronidazole if it were me, and do it for a week or so. ( I do not think the Canker had entirely abated, and or, what ever had remained of it, may be now increasing ).
> 
> Eye looks so much better!
> How 'bout an image showing us his other Eye?


This was the 3rd day of Metronidazole; he had 50mg this morning. 

Here's his other eye -- pic from Sunday. It's the one where I realized he was probably scratching the bad eye; see the feathers sticking up?


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## Dobato

Robin, Metronidazole, at times, can cause a loss of appetite, so there may be an explanation there, but glad to hear he got interested in your tempting treats. Metro for two more days then just the TMS for another week or so and hopefully he will be back to his old self. It would be nice of you could bring Lena to at least visit, as Phil says, it may help his spirits.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Late evening update: 
Velvet ate and drank a bit more and has had his evening meds, so I'm letting him tuck in for the night.

I'm figuring out where I can put the big cage so Lena can stay with Velvet; my cats have access to most of the house, and the cage doesn't fit into the bathroom that's my "infirmary" and the bars are too wide-spaced to be safe in the same space as cats (also I would not want the cats to cause the pij anxiety even if the cage _were_ "safe.")

Here's the 10pm poop; the urates seem a lot whiter now, and it's not soaking into the PT very much.


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## Dobato

Droppings look much improved, I know you will figure something out for Velvet and Lena.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

rfboyer said:


> This was the 3rd day of Metronidazole; he had 50mg this morning.
> 
> Here's his other eye -- pic from Sunday. It's the one where I realized he was probably scratching the bad eye; see the feathers sticking up?




Oh...( blush...)


Okay...




You could just allow him and his Mate to be together in however you are keeping him...no need of seperate Cages or other hassle.

They were likely kissing and doing whatever else, sharing common Water and so on, and she is not likely to catch anything from him now, if she had not already done so before.


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## rfboyer

Wed morning update:

Velvet's overnight poops look good; just like the last pic.
His eye looks good, is even more open today, and no evidence of scratching it.
He's had his morning meds, and was calmer about it than yesterday (he shed a tail feather or two in a small kerfluffle yesterday  )

it's a busy day 
I am making space in my guest room for the bigger cage, and Lena should be in the house with him this afternoon. 
I have to clean up the big cage so I can move Velvet into it, then I can take the small one to use as a basket to bring Lena in... will give her a dose of ivermectin before I put them together. 
I hope she doesn't panic; she's less accustomed to being handled than Velvet.
Before I adopted her in the summer, she lived in a coop with other breeding hens and didn't get much attention.

ETA: Baytril, Doxycycline, & Colloidal Silver just arrived


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## pdpbison

Oh good...


We can gess the Eye is no longer itching or feeling like it needs to be 'scratched'.


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## Dobato

Robin, glad to hear the meds are in. I don't think we'll need the Baytril or Doxycycline, if the eye is improving so well. However, you could put a drop of the colloidal silver in the infected eye for now.

Wouldn't mind seeing a updated photo of the eye when you get a chance.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

I brought Lena into the house early this afternoon, and after a quick detour for a dose of Ivermectin, she and Velvet were very happy to see each other.
Here they are enjoying the bigger cage.








Just now I took out the shelf because they didn't quite have enough room to fly to it comfortably. 
I put their nest bowl in the corner, and put a clean brick into the cage for them to use as they wish...

A closer pic of them when the bowl was still on the shelf. I think it's a decent, though not extreme CU view of Velvet's eye. 
The eye still looks less pink in person and Velvet always squints for the flash (I'm not a good photographer but Greg is outside working on nest boxes tonight).









Velvet and Lena are getting used to me coming in and out of the room; I have to keep the door closed to keep the cats out.  They are very curious about the cooing; I've only had one bird at a time in the house before, so there wasn't much cooing going on.

I haven't seen any worms in the droppings yet; it's been about 6.5 hours since Lena got her ivermectin... however, it wonders me why 2 birds make more than twice the droppings of 1 bird; they must be doing alchemy.


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## pdpbison

They may feel more like eating, now that they are together again.


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## Dobato

Good going... I'm sure Velvet is a much happier fellow with Lena now with him. I almost always bring the mate in when I have a bird in hospital, they do much better in every way with their mate near to encourage them. The eye looks indeed much better, less swelling, by this time next week, barring any unforeseen circumstances, the eye should be well enough back to normal.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

I've given Velvet his evening meds, including a drop of the colloidal silver to his eye, right in front of Lena. I told him we need to show Lena how easy it is, when you put your feet back to go in the burrito, and the pill is just like a strange tasting seed, etc... and he only grunted a little, and didn't try to dodge the pill. Then when I released him from the burrito into the cage, he roo-cooed and pranced about. 

He and Lena are tucked in for the night... it's almost midnight and he is still cooing to her!  
She wants to roost on the brick I put in the cage and he wants her to sit in the nest bowl with him, LOL!

@Phil - they both gobbled up seed like little Pigs at suppertime! I figured they were tanking up for billing after dinner.
There was a bit of lobster-tail dancing earlier in the afternoon.


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## pdpbison

How sweet...

Well done!


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## rfboyer

Thursday morning update:

Velvet's eye continues to look good; I gave him a drop of colloidal silver in it with his morning meds, for good measure. 

Lena's urates look yellowish in daylight, so she got metronidazole too. 
Otherwise, poops are a good color & well formed, and no worms. 
I am _amazed _not to see any worms in her droppings; it's been almost 24 hours since the ivermectin. 
Is it possible for her not to have had any? 

I've heard less cooing today, but they are taking turns sitting in the nest bowl, which I had to clean this morning because Velvet roosted on the edge and pooped into it. 

I will bring a few tobacco stems up from the loft for them this afternoon, so they can "play house."


----------



## Dobato

Robin, it is quite possible that Lena does not have a worm infection, sometimes getting infected is not always a sure thing, even if there are other birds they share space with who happen to be infected, they have to ingest worm eggs to start the cycle and it could be she just ate clean fresh seeds and didn't peck around at things too much. Good to hear the first dose Ivermectin with her so far has produced no worms. All in all, things sound under control, keep up the good work.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Some images of his recent poops?


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## rfboyer

Friday midday -- all the poop that's fit to scoop.
These are droppings from "overnight" into Friday... it's community poop; I'm not sure who roosted where, and there's been some dancing, so the chunks have been scuffed about a bit...








ETA: inset is the other corner of the cage that didn't fit into the frame; I had to photo it "in situ;" no suitable place to spread out the paper after removing it.


----------



## pdpbison

Closer images would be better..!


Lol


----------



## rfboyer

Not sure what's up with this... Velvet's eye is looking more irritated again.
Maybe on account of Lena preening him? Pic is from last evening but looks the same today. 








We've continued with oral antibiotics & colloidal silver dropped into the eye, and resumed Metronidazole since I wasn't thrilled with the droppings yesterday.
Here are today's midday droppings:








I figure the giant one is a "nest-sitter's poop" but I'm not sure whose it is. Velvet sits in the nest more than Lena does (no eggs yet); Lena likes to perch on the brick a lot. The rumpled paper suggests there's been partying... In person the urates don't look so dark on the small droppings, but the daylight is dim here today and the room has soft lighting; I've "corrected" white-balance on the pic, but it still doesn't quite look like "for real."


----------



## Dobato

Robin, I think we may want to make a change in meds after all, I am not that happy with the eye today, I think it's more than Lena preening him. What is the strength and form you have for the Baytril and Doxycycline?

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Karyn, the Baytril is 10% liquid and the Doxycycline is liquid 50mg/ml. 

The eyelids seem to be swelling more in the past hour or two; I just removed a little pussy goop from his eyelid margins with a cotton swab, and can hardly see his actual eye. 

The cage was _thoroughly_ cleaned before I put them in it. 
I've been keeping it and their food and water dishes clean, and washing my hands well before and after handling them. 
So far as I can tell, Lena is healthy -- no worms, no other signs of illness.
The only thing I did that I'm doubtful about is giving them a (clean) brick for perching, a (clean) nest bowl and some tobacco stems.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, let's make a 5% syrup of the Baytril, to do this add 1cc of the 10% Baytril and add this to 1cc of pancake syrup and store in a small vial in the fridge. Velvet needs a dose of 8mg of Baytril every 24h, but to load his system, I want you to give a dose now of the Baytril syrup and a dose 12 hours later, then go to once a day dosing from tomorrow morning, you will give him .16cc (8mg) each dose of the 5% Baytril. Later to night I want you to also give him a dose of the Doxycycline 0.30cc (15mg) and do this every 24h. Please remind me again what you are using topically for an ointment.

Stop the TMS of course.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer

I was using an erithromycin eye ointment (for humans; it was mine) on Velvet's eye but it's just about gone, so for the past several days had been dropping a drop of colloidal silver in his eye instead. I might be able to coax a few more squiggles out of the ointment tube, but probably only two or three...

I'm not sure I'm following all the math & conversions, but what I think I understand is this:
1cc each of the 10% Baytril & pancake syrup will cut the Baytril to 5% (or 50mg/ml)...
1cc~1ml, for most water based liquids, right? so the mixture will be ~2ml, and should last ~12 doses? (16x6=96) 

Should I shoot these down his throat from a tiny (1ml)syringe? I'm concerned that we might "lose" too much of it with the beak-dribble method and don't want to short him on his dose (I didn't worry much about losing the TMS since I had a lot of it, so I drew a generous dose).


----------



## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> I'm not sure I'm following all the math & conversions, but what I think I understand is this:
> 1cc each of the 10% Baytril & pancake syrup will cut the Baytril to 5% (or 50mg/ml)...
> 1cc~1ml, for most water based liquids, right? so the mixture will be ~2ml, and should last ~12 doses? (16x6=96)


Yes, you have this exactly right.

Well, don't worry too much about losing the Baytril, as I had you make up a small mixture to conserve your Baytril, we could just as easily make up 3-5mL of Baytril and 3-5mL of pancake syrup if you are worried, I always feel a little nervous about telling someone to "just shoot it down the throat", I would prefer if you did as you were doing with the TMS, a drop or two and let Velvet tongue it down. Tell me a bit about the brand and strength (ppm) of the colloidal silver you are using.

In Lou's stuff did he have any plain tetracycline or any of his friends have any? If not do you think you can check some tropical fish stores in your area or pet shops to see if the have some in stock, something like this (must be pure tetracycline and not mixed with anything else): http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14713

Karyn


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## rfboyer

I don't have pancake syrup... can i use Karo instead, or is it too thick?

The colloidal silver I have is from The Birdcare Company in the U.K.
Bottle says approx. 5ppm; gives information for "neat" doses for "critical care" in other birds than pij, and lists their other products that it's compatible with. Also says can add to water 10ml/litre for "routine" use.

Lou didn't have any tetracycline that I could identify as such. 
He had some of the herbal and/or homeopathic (?) remedies from Dr. Pigeon, and an assortment of long-expired European stuff (among which "triple sulfa with multivitamines" that has a label in French; apparently meant to be added to drinking water, like Sulmet, I guess, though I don't know about the vitamins part)

I don't really "know" any of the other flyers from Lou's club, but from things I've heard them say, suspect that most don't take great pains to help sick or injured birds heal.  Most of them don't seem to be "our" kind of folks at all.


----------



## Dobato

Yes, you can use Karo, in fact it's the syrup I use, but most people have pancake around, so I suggest that instead.

See what you can do about calling a few fish/pet stores in your area to see if you can locate some. With it we can make make up some antibacterial eye drops, as none of the other antibiotics you have is really suited for opthalmic use.

Not all colloidal silvers are created equal, here is the brand I would recommend you keep around: http://www.natural-immunogenics.com/

Karyn


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## cubanlofts

I had a black hen with the same, its 1 eye cold, i clean her eye daily, and it went away on her own.


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## rfboyer

Velvet has had a dose of the Baytril/Karo mixture. He didn't object awfully to it, and I don't think we spilled any -- I looked over him & the burrito and didn't see any stray drops (go us!) I didn't actually see him "tongue" it and swallow but I held him an extra minute or so, talking to him about how it's going to help his eye, and he didn't spit any out (he spat out a metro pill the other day after I released him back into the cage, and we had to have a do-over).


----------



## Dobato

Sounds good, Robin, don't forget to give him 0.30cc of the Doxycycline before you go to bed and a bit of the ointment as well.

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Sounds good, Robin, don't forget to give him 0.30cc of the Doxycycline before you go to bed and a bit of the ointment as well.


Does the Doxycycline go along the beak to be guzzled, or down the throat? 
Recalling you usually recommend along the beak, but is it nasty? 
This is the first I've ever used it... 

(we need a "duh, witless" icon, lol)


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## pdpbison

You can also lightly roll little bits of crustless Bread into small 'Pea' sized Balls, do not begin with too much and end up making too dense or compact of a 'Ball', use just-enough...drip the exact Medicine-dose onto that, and opening the Beak, 'pop' the little ( no larger than a small dried 'Pea' ) Bread-Ball into his Throat, where, he will obligingly swallow it.


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## Dobato

Robin, 0.30cc will be about 6 drops, so a drop or two at a time and again let Velvet tongue it down. You could follow with a few drops of water to get it all down, or as Phil has just posted, a few drops on a few small pieces of fresh bread to get the .30cc into him.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

6 Drops...likely be two ( 3-Drops-each ) 'Bread Balls' then...


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## rfboyer

Well, the Doxycycline is nasty looking brown stuff, but Velvet was willing to "tongue it down" (god bless him; he's been very cooperative once he's in the burrito).
There's a bit more ointment in the tube than I thought, so his eye got another squiggle this morning with the baytril.
Velvet's eye still looks pretty much like it did last night; I dabbed some goo off his eyelids before applying fresh ointment.
Here's the overnight poop; I think it's mostly Velvet's since there was a giant poop which I think Lena made.


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## Dobato

Robin, glad there was a bit more ointment in the tube and Velvet is being a trooper about taking his meds. Do see if you can source some tetracycline today at the fish/pet stores to make up some eye-drops for him.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> Robin, glad there was a bit more ointment in the tube and Velvet is being a trooper about taking his meds. Do see if you can source some tetracycline today at the fish/pet stores to make up some eye-drops for him.
> 
> Karyn


I've e-mailed to ask a friend who keeps tropical fish if he knows which of the smaller places in town might have tetracycline; the big-box pet supply stores here don't have any, despite selling fish...


----------



## Dobato

OK.. good..perhaps he has some, we just really need one 250mg capsule.

Did you give Velvet his loading dose of Baytril this morning? Don't forget tonight, and every night for a bit 0.15cc of the Doxycycline.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

yes, Velvet had his Baytril this morning. 
Thanks for clarifying the Doxy dose; I thought he was supposed to continue getting 0.30 of it, once daily. (d'oh)


----------



## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> OK.. good..perhaps he has some, we just really need one 250mg capsule.
> 
> Did you give Velvet his loading dose of Baytril this morning? Don't forget tonight, and every night for a bit 0.15cc of the Doxycycline.
> 
> Karyn


Should Velvet continue to get the .16 of Baytril and the .15 of Doxy each day, one in AM, one in PM, or was the Baytril just for "loading?" 

I'm about to try the bread-pea method Phil suggested with the Doxy; it may be less stressful for Velvet, since he won't have to sit in the burrito so long.

ETA: I was poking around thru the medicine chests in my several bathrooms, and found some 500mg generic Keflex tabs.
Are they good for anything that ails pigeons?


----------



## Dobato

Dobato said:


> OK.. good..perhaps he has some, we just really need one 250mg capsule.
> 
> Did you give Velvet his loading dose of Baytril this morning? Don't forget tonight, and every night for a bit 0.15cc of the Doxycycline.
> 
> Karyn


Robin, no you are quite right, Velvet is to get 0.30cc of the Doxycycline, I did not remember it right and it is 5% you have and not 10%. Sometimes I have a fair amount of numbers in my head and I did not remember yours right, I should have went back and double checked instead of recalling from memory. Good with the Baytril, next dose will be tomorrow morning .16cc (8mg), and then each morning for 14 days and then we'll reassess.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Up-Date Eye and poop Images?


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## rfboyer

Found a shop that had the tetracycline in 250mg packets, for aquariums.
A friend is picking it up for me, so it should be here in an hour or two. 

When I mix it for eye drops, does it go in plain water, or unpreserved isotonic saline (like we use for contact lenses) or...?

Here's Velvet's eye at lunchtime today, still swollen 









Here's the early morning droppings; they ruched up the paper and tracked some around a lot, so this is only some of them... the rest were similar but trampled.









(neither of these pics is color-corrected; I hurried to post)


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## pdpbison

Hi Robin,



Poops are looking better...no 'wicking' into the Paper, no odd Urates...


Pull any Calcium Grits of course, if using Tetracyclines orally.


Does his Eye Ball itself seem alright? While, the Eye Lid itself, as such, remains somewhat inflamed? Far as you can tell?



Phil
L v


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## rfboyer

Velvet & Lena have not had any grit since they've been in the house... I hope Lena will be OK with that, since she may lay eggs by the end of the week (maybe not until next week).

The eyelid is so swollen that I can't really get a good look at the eyeball, so I'm not sure. 
Didn't want to poke around at it other than to gently dab away goop and/or tears. 
The swollen skin feels firm rather than squishy, though I've been avoiding "nudging" it other than to see if any solid stuff like we had the other day is in there waiting to be released.
I don't know if he can see much past the swelling or not. 

ETA: I think Karyn had in mind to use the tetracycline for eye drops.


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## pdpbison

The old 'Pfizer' Brand 'Terramycin' Opthomological/Eye Ointment is very hard to find now and may have been discontinued.


Still a few Sellers offering it on e-bay and Amazon I think.


This is a Tetracycline based Antibiotic Ointment just for Eyes, and also has a couple of other Medicines in it.


This would be a good one to try...


----------



## Dobato

Robin, what Phil mentions, the Terramycin, is what we are going to make a kind of generic eye drop version of. The Terramycin contains .50% of a tetracycline in it (oxytetracycline) combined with .10% of a second antibiotic (Polymyxin B sulfate). We will be making a .50% eye drop solution with the tetracycline you have and it's fairly easy, but we need to be accurate. You will need either a scale or an accurate measuring glass/cup. First get some distilled water about 750mL, or boiled filtered water, or boiled bottle water. When the water comes to a boil rinse out the measuring cup with a few ounces of the boiling water, discard and fill to the 500mL mark, if using a scale, zero out the cup you are going to measure the water in, rinse with a few ounces of the boiling water, discard, and then measure 500mg of water into the cup. Let the water cool for a few minutes, until it's hot, but not scalding, then add one 250mg pack of the tetracycline you have, and you will now have a .50% tetracycline solution (make sure there is only 100% tetracycline in the packs you get, and nothing else).

See if you have an old eyedropper bottle you can clean and sterilize before hand or even an old eyedropper bottle, like Visine, that you could rinse and sterilize out. Just fill the small bottle with the solution you made, throw away the rest (it will not keep) and give Velvet 1 drop into the eye, open it up gently a bit so it gets right in and also one drop right on the outside of the eye, and do this twice a day.

I think in a few days we will start to see a good response to both the new oral and topical meds (stop the Erythromycin eye ointment). His droppings do look better, we just need to get his eye back in shape.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

The tetracycline is here, it is Mardel's Maracyn-TC (from the package, apparently distributed by Sergeant's/Sentry); 
the active ingredient is "250mg Tetracycline Hydrochloride" per packet. 

How to sterilize a plastic bottle? 
(I have a glass bottle that had Similasan eye drops in it but can't get the dropper thingy off the bottle  )
Can I put it in a measuring cup of water in the microwave until it boils?
I have an electronic food scale that weighs in grams (usually used to weigh yarn); would this be accurate enough?

Sorry to be such a klutz about this...


----------



## Dobato

Good, I know this brand, it's 100% tetracycline.

For the small bottles, you can just put a few mLs' of water in them and pop them in the micro until they start to boil/steam (but take out right away or they will distort). With the stuck eyedropper bottle, try running the top under hot water then tapping the side of the screw on part all around a few times. Better if you have a stainless steel pot or Corning Ware pot to boil the water, but if not, the micro will work. Once it's all mixed up and into the small bottle (this should cool it right down, but check) use it on Velvet right away, as I would not mind getting two applications in today, now and then again late tonight, then in the mid-morning to start a regular schedule.

The kitchen scale will be accurate enough for our use, this is all a little new to you so, not a you're not a klutz, just learning.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Eyedrops made & administered. 

If I understand correctly, Velvet should get the eye drops twice a day... should I refrigerate the solution, or is it OK at room temperature?
(since the larger quantity had to be discarded since it doesn't "keep")

He has been getting .16ml of the Baytril mixture, and .30ml of the Doxycycline daily, at "opposite" times. I've been giving the Baytril in late morning, and the Doxy in late evening. Is it OK to give the eye drops with each of these oral doses, or would they be better staggered? 

(I was at a meeting for several hours this evening & didn't get a chance to post before I had to leave...)


----------



## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> Eyedrops made & administered.
> 
> If I understand correctly, Velvet should get the eye drops twice a day... should I refrigerate the solution, or is it OK at room temperature?
> (since the larger quantity had to be discarded since it doesn't "keep")
> 
> He has been getting .16ml of the Baytril mixture, and .30ml of the Doxycycline daily, at "opposite" times. I've been giving the Baytril in late morning, and the Doxy in late evening. Is it OK to give the eye drops with each of these oral doses, or would they be better staggered?
> 
> (I was at a meeting for several hours this evening & didn't get a chance to post before I had to leave...)


Sounds good, meds amounts and schedule sounds right as well. Yes, you can give the eyedrops at the morning and evening meds time and I would refrigerate them between use (no more colloidal silver for now).

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer

Velvet's eyelids are still swollen but there's less "gunk" than there was, and they're less red. 
I suspect he scratches his eye once in a while (or else Lena preens over it too much) and am thinking about having him wear the collar again for a day or so and see what happens. 
I probably should not have discontinued the collar so soon, but he really hated it (natch) and had figured out how to get it off once in a while. 
I don't want to fasten it so tightly that it's truly unbearable, but don't know how to keep him and Lena from taking it off of him, unless I separate them and confine him to a small space where he doesn't have much wiggle room, and I'm feeling that would be mean... though maybe only "tough love."


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## Dobato

How about an updated photo and perhaps we'll give the collar another try for a day or two.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Here's a pic from a few minutes ago; I don't like this at all; it seems worse than earlier.
Sorry it's somewhat soft; lighting is not good at cage level at night.









I guess he will have to wear the collar...


----------



## Dobato

Robin, its hard to tell from the photo just where we are at. Do you think you could try and get one to match up, more or less, to the one in your post #96, from a few days ago, for comparison : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=521134&postcount=96

Let's put the collar back on him for now and see if it starts to look better if we can get him to stop scratching it. Also, outside posting up a better photo, by all rights, I was expecting a better response to the treatment he is on by now. He is on two very good oral antibiotics and a called for topical treatment for one eye colds. We may need something a little stronger topically for the eye and we need need to get him into a vet for this. This could be eye drops with a stronger antibiotic combined with a corticosteroid to reduce inflammation. My general rule for my birds is I self-treat for a few days and if I don't feel they are responding or making the progress I would like, it is in to the vets, do you have a vet you could call?

Also, it may be just coincidental, your other bird coming down with a respiratory problem in your other thread, but between Velvet and now the other bird we need to be extra vigilant about your other birds in the loft for any similar signs of illness. Not to alarm you, but both eye swelling and respiratory problems can be caused by Chlamydophila so we need to keep this on our mind. Both birds are on the correct medicine for this infection, by the way. 

Karyn


----------



## RodSD

The bird looks like it has those one-eye cold disease which is a respiratory disease which is probably viral which you really don't have medicine to cure with unless it is bacterial. It is the secondary infection that can do harm. All those medicines you are giving to this bird will not heal that eye, but will treat secondary infection if your birds have one now. The birds immune system will heal that eye. I had a bird like that once and it healed on its own around 2-3 weeks. I suppose I got lucky that my bird didn't develop secondary infections.


----------



## rfboyer

Velvet is back in the collar, and giving me the dirtiest looks I've ever gotten from a bird. 
I'm hoping he doesn't figure out how to get out of it this time. I fastened it a little differently and it's actually under some of his neck feathers (like a dog's collar gets under the neck hair a bit) so maybe it will not be so easy for him to "slip" it. 
Lena wants nothing to do with the collar, and pecks at the outside of it the way they peck an intruding pigeon in their own space, so I'm thinking she may not help him out of it.
I'm hoping that keeping his foot out of his eye will bring this to a prompt conclusion... I should have kept him wearing the collar last week, but his eye improved, so I let him go without it. That seems to have been a poor decision... I will get a fresh pic in the morning, when the light is better.

None of the other birds at the loft seems to have any respiratory symptoms. One bird sneezed right after drinking, but only once, so I figure she got a snootful when another bird drinking made waves in the water. Everybody's eyes look good, and their beaks & ceres are "clean." I have my eye on them, though...
Droppings in the loft also look acceptable, except when Mr Cooper rolls by and causes a panic; then it gets a bit sloppy for a few minutes.


----------



## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> None of the other birds at the loft seems to have any respiratory symptoms. One bird sneezed right after drinking, but only once, so I figure she got a snootful when another bird drinking made waves in the water. Everybody's eyes look good, and their beaks & ceres are "clean." I have my eye on them, though...
> Droppings in the loft also look acceptable, except when Mr Cooper rolls by and causes a panic; then it gets a bit sloppy for a few minutes.


OK.. good..., but for the next little while we want to keep an extra close eye on them, we don't want to be caught napping. Will wait for the photo in the morning.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

Hi Robin,



RodSD makes a good mention - if this is Viral, the meds will have been answering secndary Bacterial issues, while unable to answer the Viral component of the inflamation.


Either way, if the 'Collar' is objectionable to his Mate ( and him ) and it's reason is to keep his Toe Nails out of his Eye when it itches or feels funny...


You could tape some padding to his Foot and Toes on that side, something comfortable-enough, and, that would keep him from 'scratching' at it, and, allow you to dispense with the 'Collar'.


I wonder would tepid Saline rinses help things at this point? Comfort wise, and, cleaning-wise?


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## rfboyer

Here's a recent (minutes ago) pic of Velvet's eye:









He has been wearing the Elizabethan collar since overnight last night, and all but a few hours at lunchtime today (so he got a chance to eat & drink) and for the past hour or so, again for a chance to eat & drink (& photo op). 

I think it looks better than the past 2 days, so I'm planning for him to wear it for a few more days, with a few hours out of it twice a day to eat & drink & receive meds. (assuming that he'll be hungry enough to eat during that time)

I thought we'd seen more improvement earlier with the Sulfa based meds and the collar than with the baytril & doxy, without the collar... I'm sure the foot-scratching is contributing to the problem, though if this were caused by a virus, what virus would it likely be, and how long until it would "run its course?"

@Phil - When I first noticed that Velvet's eye cere seemed irritated, I had flushed it with isotonic saline (no additives) that I use for contact lenses, for a few days and it seemed to help; then the eye got worse and after a few days of the erithromycin ointment, I brought him into the house.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, I have thought about Velvet a few times today. I agree, he seemed to be responding well to the TMS and then things changed. RodSD, made a good mention in commenting it might be viral and we should keep this in mind, but Velvet's response was so immediate to the AB treatment at first, it leaves my mind unsettled about the abruptness in change. In situations like this I like to review the variables of what changed, of what did we do different and after reading the thread a few times what popped out at me was the addition of the colloidal silver, the eye seemed to make its turn right after this addition.

There is the possibility that Velvet has had an allergic reaction to the colloidal silver, through not a usual occurrence (especially with a high quality product) it can happen; http://www.utopiasilver.com/faq/can-colloidal-silver-cause-allergic-reaction.htm . 

I was thinking to start by rinsing the eye really well with a warm saline solution, you can make this by adding 1 teaspoon of salt to 1 quart of boiled, then cooled down water. It would be best if you had a squeeze bottle that put out a very fine stream of fluid. Cradle his head in a towel to absorb the solution that will fall and see if you can gently open his eye a bit to flush everything out the best you can. After you are satisfied it is well rinsed if you could pick up a bottle of this at CVS or Rite-Aid: http://www.healthchemist.co.nz/mino...r-eye-drops-allergen-relief-15ml-p436372.html , make sure it is the ACR one, as Clear Eyes makes a number of choices, as it has an extra ingredient to remove mucus from the eye and an antihistamine to reduce redness and itchiness. Apply these drops an hour or so after the tetracycline ones twice a day.

Since it is the weekend, we could try this until Monday, as I imagine with 24-36 hours we should see a rapid response if this is working and make a decision of what further to do Monday morning.

Karyn


----------



## pdpbison

It might just be that his scratching it was what interfered with the continuation of the initial positive healing-responce.

So, yeah, Keep on with the Collar!


----------



## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> I was thinking to start by rinsing the eye really well with a warm saline solution, you can make this by adding 1 teaspoon of salt to 1 quart of boiled, then cooled down water. It would be best if you had a squeeze bottle that put out a very fine stream of fluid. Cradle his head in a towel to absorb the solution that will fall and see if you can gently open his eye a bit to flush everything out the best you can.


Could I use a saline solution (just saline, no other stuff added) that's sold for soaking contact lenses for the rinse? I'm kitchen-impaired... and probably don't have a suitable squeeze bottle. 

Will look for the Clear Eyes ACR tomorrow.


----------



## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> Could I use a saline solution (just saline, no other stuff added) that's sold for soaking contact lenses for the rinse? I'm kitchen-impaired... and probably don't have a suitable squeeze bottle.
> 
> Will look for the Clear Eyes ACR tomorrow.


Contact solution would be just fine, and will have a good fine stream to it, if I may suggest one, perhaps this one: http://www.walgreens.com/store/cata...=G&ec=frgl_&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku1684199

It is made for rinsing only and contains no cleaners, the price you see if for a two-pack, a single should be under $4.00. I would get a large pot of very warm water and place the bottle in it for 1/2 hour to warm it up before use (test on your wrist area , before using).

I would rinse this morning, then again late night (definitely seems to be some gunk in there that needs to rinse out, if possible, pat dry and then apply the Clear Eyes ACR, remember the operative word for all of this is gentle) and let's see how things look tomorrow. I know I said earlier to use the Clear Eyes after the tetracycline, but I think it makes more sense, thinking it through, to use the ACR right after rinsing and the tetracycline drops 1 hour later. Wait a few minutes after the rinsing and patting dry to allow the saline to dissipate and be absorbed, before using the ACR drops, as we don't want to dilute the drops if it can be avoided.

Let us know how it goes,

Karyn


----------



## rfboyer

Velvet's update...

Here's the eye today... in detail the eye looks a lot like that last close-up from 10 days ago. So, I don't think it's "worse," but isn't better.









He's been getting .16ml of the baytril mixture (5%) and .30 of doxycycline daily, the Tetracycline eye drops twice daily, and his eye rinsed with saline and then the ACR eye drops also twice daily (spaced out). When I do the saline I also remove as much goo as I can without hurting him (or poking him in the eye), from his eyelid margins and the eye cere, with a cotton swab or a tissue.

The collar upset him so much that I could see from the droppings that he wasn't eating well during the periods he was liberated from it, so I haven't made him wear it every day; usually only a day or two at a time. He and Lena have week-old (dummy) eggs and she does allow him to sit on the nest when he has the collar on, so I guess it's not putting her off so much anymore. But, I think he's still scratching the eye, or rubbing it on his shoulder; sometimes I find a downy feather sticking to the goo along the eyelid margin. And now, his other eyelid is beginning to look a little irritated.  (pic tomorrow, when light is better and reflections don't fool camera & photographer)

So, for the record, here is a recent dropping from Velvet:








It looks "normal" enough to me... actually I'm surprised it wasn't wetter, since he'd been sitting the nest all afternoon. 

Is there anything else I can or should try before getting him a vet appt? (I have a lead on an avian vet who's pigeon friendly)
He needs to be healthy, and I need my guest room back (for human visitors) in a couple of weeks...

@Phil - can you direct me to threads and/or images of something to put on his foot to keep him from scratching his eye? 
The collar is very effective, but I'm afraid of him doing himself a mischief by way of a hunger strike because it upsets him so much.


----------



## Dobato

Robin, I really think it's time we get Velvet into the vet. The medication regime he is on really should have cleared this up by if it was going to. He has been on three very good antibiotics and eyedrops, and as I mentioned before, he may need as change in meds, maybe even a few tests run, plus I don't like to hear at all the other eye is showing some signs as well. Please see if someone can see him tomorrow or ASAP, as this is going for too long now.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Vet might be able to do a Culture...


Robin, I do not have any images or links to images showing the 'Shoe', but, it would be easy to determine by noting the shape and the position of his Toes and Toe Nails....or imagining his Foot Print, and, a 'Shoe' which is about as that, save for how his Nails need to sit in 'V' cuts so they hang over the edged and are also restrained from sliding.

Corrugated Cardboard is a good thickness for equalling the depth to which their Toe Nails would overhang in the 'V' notches.


Small 'Diamond' ( If with one end more oblique than the other ) shape piece of regular corrugated Cardboard or Pasteboard...whose perimeter is a little lager than what would be described by his normal, standing foot print...so that the perimeter margain or apex-points allows for small 'V' cuts for each Toe Nail to go into.


A little light padding, and this taped onto his Foot and Toes.


I could post a j-peg of a drawing if that would help, or, I could make one real fast and post an image of it if you like?


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer

I've left a message for the gentleman who had mentioned the pigeon-friendly vet to me last summer; waiting for a return call with contact info (and hoping the vet isn't awfully busy this week)...


----------



## Dobato

Robin, please let him know this has been going on for a while and you really feel Velvet needs to been seen ASAP. You can do what I do with my vet, tell him you'll come sit and wait and be seen if someone late cancels or is running late, it almost always works out for me to get in on very short notice, for birds I feel can not wait.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Velvet has an appointment for 3:30 this afternoon to see a vet about his eye... the earliest I could score for him. 
I got recommendations for 2 vets who will see pigeons, but one (the one preferred by my acquaintance) isn't taking new patients right now  so I called the other.
It seems every vet has mixed reviews on the web, so I'm not really sure what to expect, though the receptionist seemed familiar with racing pigeons.
Will post results when we return...


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## Dobato

Very good news. Make sure your write down all you have done for Velvet so far and the meds you have used (TMS, Baytril, Doxy), (the tetracycline eye drops were at 0.50% strength, + the Clear Eyes) so he has a better view of what has gone on.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Velvet's vet report:
I took him to Northview Animal Hospital, where he was seen by Dr Denise Pleban. 
The staff seem very kind and helpful generally, and 

She examined the eye as well as possible, given the swelling, etc. and since the other eyelid is beginning to look irritated, thinks we can rule out a "3rd eyelid tumor" and that this is just a stubborn infection.

He weighed 425g on her scale, so he's a little light. Dr Pleban told me that she was surprised how calm he was and that he didn't peck her (she more frequently sees "fancy" pigeons, and apparently they do ).

Said dropping didn't look too bad, but several more days of metronidazole would not be a bad idea. (I had resumed it this week after I didn't like the droppings on Monday).

She gave Rx for gentamycin eye ointment, to be applied to both eyes, and instructions to continue the doxycycline (.30ml) daily, and increase the baytril (.16ml) to twice daily.

Also suggested trying the collar going downward instead of up around his head, which, depending how it fits him, may keep his feet out of his eyes, yet still allow him to eat. If that works, only potential difficulty could be if Lena preens him (which she may not do if he is gooey from the ointment...). 

The only thing she didn't especially like about what we've been doing was the colloidal silver -- chiefly because she doesn't generally have confidence in homeopathic remedies, but didn't opine whether or not Velvet may have had an "adverse reaction" to it. 

So, I'm off to the pharmacy to get the ointment...


----------



## Dobato

Robin, this was my feeling as well, a stubborn infection, but I felt it was time to get Velvet into a vet that could help with a change in meds if required. I was hoping that topical Gentamycin would be prescribed, as not much out there is resistant to this antibiotic. All the other adjustments sound fine as well, if in the next 2-3 days we don't see a noticeable improvement we may want to consider a complete change in the oral meds, as with this doubling of the Baytril and adding in the Metronidazole, we should start to see a response, if they are going to work. Thanks for getting him in and ruling out a few other things that were on my mind, let's see how things go over the next few days.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Velvet's eye seems to be slowly making progress... the eyelids are less inflamed, and I can see the solid 'pus' stuff inside his 3rd eyelid, but can't coax it out, and don't want to injure him by trying. I'm hoping that I can get Velvet a follow-up appointment with Dr Pleban tomorrow, as his appetite has not been good the past few days. She called to inquire about his progress while I was out, but I didn't get a chance to return her call today.

I think the lack of appetite may be partly because he hates the collar, which I have sometimes made him wear (after I find evidence of scratching or preening), and possibly on account of antibiotics messing up his gut flora. I've dusted his seed with medistatin for a few days, and he's getting metronidazole (the buffered one Charis recommended) daily since the weekend, since his urates sometimes have the 'flat paint' look (as Phil describes it). 

When I was speaking to Dr Dorn about my (other) birds, I mentioned Velvet, and he recommended not to hesitate to feed him formula if he didn't want to eat... which I did once today, and may give him more tonight. 
I don't like this lack of appetite; I can feel that he's thinner.

Thankfully, his mate Lena seems fine; she is usually on the nest when I check on them (Velvet's normal "shift" would be when I'm out at the loft or doing other afternoon errands), but she is eating and drinking well, and feels good and solid when I hold her (though she doesn't like being held, probably because that usually means a pill is forthcoming...


----------



## Dobato

Robin, thanks for the update on Velvet. When you get a chance post up a photo of his eye and fresh droppings. If it is any consolation, I know from experience that Doxycycline (and Metro as well) really can throw their appetite for a loop, so once the meds stop (even possibly changed) I would expect a pick up in appetite.

Karyn


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## pdpbison

Karyn, Robin, 



Had we discussed Pennacillin, or, Clyndamycin for Velvet?



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato

pdpbison said:


> Karyn, Robin,
> 
> Had we discussed Pennacillin, or, Clyndamycin for Velvet?
> 
> Phil
> Lv


Phil, let's wait for the photos as a change of meds has been on my mind if he really is not substantially better looking at this point after being on the other meds for this long, I do think the Gentamicin ointment has been a very good addition though.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

*Early Bird gets the Worm *

I returned Dr Pleban's follow-up call from yesterday and scored a 9:40am appointment for her to see him, from which we've just returned.

The gentamicin ointment had relieved the inflammation enough that she could get the chunk of pus out from under his 3rd eyelid.
It was a paisley shaped thing (like one half of the yin-yang symbol) approx 1cm long and 2-3mm wide at the fat part.
It's being sent for culture (for aerobes, anaerobes, and something else I didn't quite catch). 
We expect results in 3 or 4 days...
Labwork is expensive!  but I'm thankful I have enough money to get it done.


Dr Pleban is still not sure whether the infection is the main thing, or secondary to a 3rd eyelid tumor. 
She said surgery to remove a tumor is sometimes appropriate, but if not, such a tumor can be "lived with." 
My impression is that she expects that if there is a tumor, it would be benign...

The removal of the pus caused a little bleeding; but I can see that the 3rd eyelid is a lot less engorged looking.
If I can get a good pic later this afternoon, I will post it.

Meanwhile, until I actually know he's eating & drinking, Velvet is to get 3 to 4 8cc servings of "gruel" a day, with medistatin added to 2 of the servings, and a metronidazole tab daily until the droppings improve.
Discontinuing the systemic antibiotics pending results of the cultures, and continuing with the gentamicin eye ointment, which she said I can apply 3x daily, if it seems appropriate, instead of just 2. 

I also learned an interesting thing about Baytril... the reason humans can't take it is that it causes migraines.


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## Dobato

Robin, glad you got him in. The drug mentioned above, Clindamycin, is a drug with very good tissue and bone penetration and is a drug of choice when dealing with anaerobic infections. To tell you the truth, I would mind seeing if you could make your vet prescribe a course of this as an empiric treatment (meaning basically, let's try it and see what the response is) for Velvets eye making the prescription part of this visit and avoiding another visit (and costs) to get a prescription.. Many times it is combined with Baytril for broader coverage, so I was thinking it may be a good ideas to swap out the Doxycycline and try the Clindamycin, and continue the Baytril as well for Velvet. I know your vet bills must be really adding up about now, with all of your problems as of late, really nice to see a person going all out for their birds.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Velvet seems to be feeling rather better this afternoon; he perched on his brick, instead of squeezing into the nest bowl alongside of Lena. 

Meanwhile, Velvet has had 2 servings of formula, one at noon and one ~4:30, and though annoyed by Mr Tube, doesn't seem uncomfortable afterward. 
I checked his crop before I gave the second one, and it still felt a little sloshy, so I waited an hour, and gave it, and he's good with it.

Droppings are improving; today there's a lot more fecal matter relative to the bile, and the urates are beginning to look better too. 
I don't know whether his appetite was diminished by the antibiotics, or whether he was having a hunger strike in protest of the e-collar. 
I have not found evidence of him messing with the eye since we got back from the vet, so I guess it is rather relieved.

The eye still looks rough, but I can see how much less irritated overall since the pus glob was removed. The tissue that was swollen is looking more like a deflating balloon, which I guess is a Good Thing. There's actually room to get in a nice squig of ointment.

I'll get Greg to take a good macro shot of Velvet's eye this evening when he gets home from work. 
And hopefully there will be some decent looking droppings to post.
I explained to him how much happier we will both be if he eats out of his seed dish...


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## pdpbison

He may have gotten a tiny grain of Oyster Shell or a conrtaminated particle of something under his inner Lid and that led to some abrasion, irritation and minor infection...if so, it is possible the offending particle was within the 'goo' glob which was removed, so...either way, should be finally resolving now I would hope!


Phil
Lv


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## rfboyer

All the poop that's fit to scoop (and an eye picture):

Velvet's evening droppings - finally beginning to look more substantial, though I'm still not thrilled with the urates.









Here's the eye... I had just showered it with isotonic saline solution (hence the droplets) and unstuck a fluffy feather from the ointment residue. It's less puffy, and showing some definition instead of looking like balloon. 









@Phil - I got a smaller piece of similar stuff out of that eye about a month ago; it reminded me of those little cysts that form around ingrown hair, etc.


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## Dobato

Robin, please ask your vet about prescribing a course of Clindamycin, I am not happy with the progress of his eye, even with the adjustment of dosage of the meds, I would like to see a change in meds take place. The suggested dosing for pigeons is 150mg/kg q24h, so Velvet would need at least 400-500mg total prescribed. 

Karyn


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## pdpbison

A good, organic Honey, topically, may even be worth considering, along with the Clindamyin Orally...or a Clindamycin suspension Topically and Orally, with a staggered topical Honey application also.


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## rfboyer

Since Velvet has a few days "rest" from antibiotics, would it be appropriate to put probiotics into his formula, to help rebalance his digestion? 
If he were eating much seed, I would dust the seed with it, if probiotics and medistatin can be dusted to seed at the same time...

Velvet's droppings were much better looking overnight (will post pic of next batch; overnight were on a paper with a giant henpoo that I had to dispose of immediately), but I'm impatient for his appetite to improve... he really needs to eat for himself!


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## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> Since Velvet has a few days "rest" from antibiotics, would it be appropriate to put probiotics into his formula, to help rebalance his digestion?
> If he were eating much seed, I would dust the seed with it, if probiotics and medistatin can be dusted to seed at the same time...
> 
> Velvet's droppings were much better looking overnight (will post pic of next batch; overnight were on a paper with a giant henpoo that I had to dispose of immediately), but I'm impatient for his appetite to improve... he really needs to eat for himself!


Robin, not sure exactly what you mean by a few days rest from antibiotics, can you clarify a bit for me?

Thanks,

Karyn


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## rfboyer

When Dr Pleban saw Velvet yesterday, and we got the stuff out of his eye to be sent away for analysis, her instructions were to discontinue the baytril & doxycycline until we receive the results (then commence whatever antibiotic the results indicate); meanwhile giving him the topical gentamicin ointment and medistatin in his food, along with a daily metronidazole tab until the quality of his urates is satisfactory.

Since it's generally a good idea to give probiotics following antibiotics to help rebalance the digestive system, and meant to ask if they are compatible with medistatin and/or metronidazole, since a secondary objective is to improve Velvet's appetite, and there's a possibility that the antibiotics had diminished it, or contributed...


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## Dobato

OK, I am am clear, the vet stopped the current meds (Baytril + Doxy). Yes, you can give some probiocs right now. Use human grade ones that come in a capsule, you can sprinkle a bit on a bread ball and pop into him or a a bit to a cocktail as another way.

When are the results due? If the eye looks like it is getting worse in any way, please post immediately, you have another very good antibiotic there, if you were not seeing a vet, I would have suggested to start and that is the Chloramphenicol. I would still call the vets and ask if a course of Clindamycin could be started while waiting for results.

Glad the dropping look to be a bit better, now all we need is for the eye to get better, this is much too long.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Karyn, thanks for the confirmation that probiotics are OK right now...
I had just prepared a syringe full of formula and set it in a glass of warm water, so I remixed it and added some, so Velvet will get it in a few minutes. 

Should I give it more than once daily? 

Culture results are due in "3-7 days" from yesterday; Dr Pleban said the lab has been prompt lately, and also told me that if his eye seems to get worse, to let her know right away. 

Barring changes for the worse, if I don't receive results by Saturday, I will call the office first thing Monday... 
I'm not shy about being pesty for results, but I don't want to be one of those clients who "micromanages the vet."


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## Dobato

After antibiotics, I most times give probiotics every second day for about three times.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Dobato said:


> After antibiotics, I most times give probiotics every second day for about three times.
> 
> Karyn


Thanks Karyn, I wasn't sure how often to give them. The package suggests daily for humans.

I know some folks add probiotics to the flock diet as a supplement from time to time, dusting the seed with it. 
When it's done like that as a general beneficial thing, and not to correct a particular condition, would it be given in an alternate-day pattern as well, or just once and not again until its "turn" in a rotation of supplements over a longer period of days or weeks?


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## Dobato

Robin, I really only give really give probiotics after treating with antibiotics and not part of a regular plan, like giving calcium, vitamins or ACV from time to time. In a coop, just as they can pick up bad bacteria from other birds droppings, they also pick up FIB (friendly intestinal bacteria) as well, just from living with other birds and walking through their droppings, then preening and pecking around as they do, that is why it's important to keep your birds healthy, as what one has, before long most others will have.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Thanks Karyn!

I knew bad bacteria travel fast  but didn't know the friendly ones did too. 
My goal is to have healthy birds, but they seem to have more challenges now than when they lived in utter squalor (when I first started helping at the loft). Or maybe I'm just learning to understand what I'm seeing, and able to see things with a bare floor and nest boxes that I didn't see with a corncob litter floor, perches, and nests in the corners.

I've been trying to develop a plan of supplements to their usual diet since apparently they need more than pigeon mix and plain water to be really healthy. 
They get ACV in their water about half the time, and garlic about once a week, and grit with oyster shell is available all the time. 
I know they should get greens, but I'm not sure what to give them, or how frequently.


This evening, I put Velvet's e-collar on, since I could see that he had been scratching a little, and Lena _attacked _the collar. 
She had never actually attacked it before that I know of, but would just grab the edge of it and try to pull it off of Velvet.
I was afraid she'd peck his eye so I put her in the other cage with Nancy for a few minutes, and had to spritz her because she went after Nancy, which I never expected.
When she calmed down, I put her back in the cage with Velvet, and they have been sitting calmly together in their nest since then. 
I gave Nancy some pigeon treats (safflower seeds) by way of apology...

I probably should have just put Lena into a vacant carrier for timeout, I guess.


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## pdpbison

That's so sweet - Lena attacked the 'Collar'...what a cool Hen she is.


Not ideal of course for this, but, I admire that about her, none the less.


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## Dobato

Robin, any changes to Velvet's eye?.... results?...to tell you the truth, I am a little worried about him being off antibiotics and the eye is not on the way to being healed.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

No test results yet, but Dr Pleban will return my call (she was in today, but with a patient when I called) later, and I can ask her about clindamycin, etc. 

Now that Velvet has been wearing the collar, the inflammation seems to be slowly reducing... the eyelids are less red, and the skin of the outer lid & cere are less puffed.

When I first made the collar, I probably should have just insisted he wear it all the time, and tube fed him... but since he could eat for himself (apparently "would" is another matter), I felt bad putting him thru the hassle of being tube-fed. 

I have to take the collar off to feed him, but it goes right back on while he's still in the burrito. 
Poor guy, I hope I'm feeding him enough. He has been getting 32-40 cc of formula a day, usually 8-9 cc at a time. He might be able to hold more at once, but I don't want to overfill his crop.

Here are his droppings since overnight; they dry fast because the heating pad is under where the nest bowl sits:


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## Dobato

Robin, my concern is that this infection has been present well over a month and is still not resolved. I think the Gentamycin topical ointment is helping quite a bit at the local level, but the reason we are not starting to see a real resolution in the eye is there is a deeper issue than a topical antibiotic will be able to treat. I am also concerned whatever it is may end up possibly effecting the eye itself, as whatever it is persistent. This is the reason why I think he should be put on a course of the Clindamycin to see if we can see he shows a response.

I mentioned in a few threads since I have been here, I had a bird with a persistent infection that did not respond to Baytril, Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Doxycycline, culture and sensitivity tests showed the bacteria was only sensitive to two antibiotics out about 8 tested (including the three mentioned above), one was Clindamycin and the other was Chloramphenicol.

Edit: Robin, Phil has started a thread about his experience with Clindamycin, so I now have a reservation, for the time being, about recommending it for Velvet, as I take anecdotal reports on meds quite seriously, although I have used it a number of times with very good results. I have also used Chloramphenicol as well, with never an issue, perhaps you can ask your vet about Chloramphenicol for the time being.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Karyn, thanks for that Very Timely additional information! 

I will ask Dr Pleban about Chloramphenicol. Is this something I have, under a different name? (Sorry, chemistry muddles me a bit).


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## Dobato

You do have some I believe you mentioned in tablet form (250mg), if I remember right. Actually, Chloramphenicol is one of the least expensive meds I have ever had filled at the vets, so if she thinks it's worth running a course for say 5 days to see if there in a positive response, let her dispense a prescription for you, as when under vet care they do not like it too much if you start compounding your own meds.

I think this is a reasonable course of action as both meds for my bird showed about the same level of effectiveness, but I went with the Clindamycin because it is once a day dosing and Chloramphenicol was 2-3 times a day dosing.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Just talked to Dr Pleban, and reviewed with her what I've been doing with Velvet. 

He's wearing the collar all the time since yesterday afternoon, except when I'm feeding him (I can't get my hand on him correctly to place his head & neck for feeding when he's wearing it), 
I'm feeding him daily 35-40cc of "gruel," in 4 servings of 9-10cc each. (Exact mixed with pedialyte and a "good squig" of nutrical). I asked if it was enough, since he can't eat with collar on, and she said if it's "just" thin enough to get thru the tube, it should be fine. Approved heartily of adding the nutrical (thanks to Phil for suggesting that, way back when) to boost calories.

Nystatin in 2 of the daily "gruel" servings, one 50mg metronidazole tab daily, and gentamicin ointment 2-3 times daily in both eyes. She said "good" about probiotics every other day as Karyn recommended, while Velvet is not taking any systemic antibiotics.

Dr Pleban has a preliminary report from the lab; they have identified at least one kind of staph, possibly more, but not certain yet how resistant it may be, nor which antibiotics it is sensitive to. There may be other kinds of bacteria present also, but they haven't been ID'd yet; she expects more complete info Monday.

@Phil - Dr Pleban was aware that some birds tolerate clindamycin poorly... but said it doesn't seem possible to predict which ones should avoid it until it's tried. 

@Karyn - the med Dr Pleban and I discussed briefly when Velvet was there on Wednesday was chloramphenicol (in the form that she has, requires lab gloves to handle ), but by another trade name. If the lab results indicate that it will be effective, she will write me a Rx for it. (What i have is tabs, and I have the impression she'd prefer a solution or suspension...)


----------



## Dobato

rfboyer said:


> @Karyn - the med Dr Pleban and I discussed briefly when Velvet was there on Wednesday was chloramphenicol (in the form that she has, requires lab gloves to handle ), but by another trade name. If the lab results indicate that it will be effective, she will write me a Rx for it. (What i have is tabs, and I have the impression she'd prefer a solution or suspension...)


Robin, yes, it should be in a suspension form so the the dose is well metered. I know the sound of using gloves is off putting, but it is not because Chloramphenicol itself is highly toxic, but because in humans, there is a small statistical chance a reaction to the med that could cause aplastic anemia to develop, this happening is more akin to an allergic reaction in people, as the reaction is not dose dependent, but were even very small amounts can cause an adverse reaction in a human body. 

The drug itself is a very effective drug for many infections and although it is no longer used in developed counties (although for certain infections where nothing else is working an application can be made for its use), but because it is so very effective and because so very few bacteria have resistance to it, Chloramphenicol is still used in many underdeveloped countries, because it's cheap and it works, where if the choice is death or a small chance in the tens of thousands one may get aplastic anemia, I guess the choice in these instances is pretty simple.

These risks are not present for birds, where this medicine is well tolerated and effective, and the use of gloves eliminates the very small risk in a reaction in humans to it. 

Here is a link to Wiki for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramphenicol

Well, odds are that if after the long courses of antibiotics Velvet has been on and it has not been eliminated, chances are that it is resistant to a good number of meds, lets see what the rest of the results are, but can you clarify with her if there is a problem with Velvet not being treated currently with any danger to his eye itself.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Karyn, thanks for the extra background information about chloramphenicol. 
If my choices were dead presently from the infection vs. possibly anemic and dead some years in future, I'd definitely take the drug and risk the anemia. 

I don't have a problem with lab gloves; they come in a size that fits my hand and fingers well enough without losing dexterity. 
It's the rubber gloves for cleanup that make me feel like I'm trying to pick up dimes wearing a catcher's mitt. 

I expect to hear from Dr Pleban again on Monday, when the lab is expected to provide more info about the culture. 
The impression I have from her is that she does not think the eye itself is at risk, though the lids and cere are inflamed.


----------



## rfboyer

This morning when I went into the bird room, Velvet had a small amount of formula on his collar... maybe .5cc worth (he gets 10cc servings, the last one was ~8 hours previous), and it was "fresh" (hadn't started to dry out yet, and smelled like fresh formula). Collar is off for cleaning, for the moment. 

I'm not sure how concerned to be about this; I don't think his digestion is amiss, since he's been producing a decent quantity of droppings. 
When I gave Velvet his metronidazole tab this morning, his crop didn't seem completely empty, but not really full either.

It's been 3 weeks since Lena laid eggs, but they've been sitting in the bowl together, and the heating pad for their cage is under it. 
I've pulled the dummy eggs and replaced their soiled bowl with a fresh one. If I should give dummy eggs back to them, I can...

Is it possible they're courting again (collar and all) and the formula dribble on the collar was from billing? 
Or do I have another emergency on my hands? 
I've already cancelled my other plans for today, except for looking after the birds at the loft...


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## Dobato

Robin, the problem when things like this happen is because we want things to be OK we tend to down play what is going on and rationalize with any different amount of scenarios that could be responsible. However, and not to be alarmist about this, I have been concerned for Velvet since he he was taken off all antibiotics, when we know he has an infection going on. When I add this into what has happened with your other birds, like I have been saying, there is an itch in my brain that won't go away about all of this.

I really think the time has passed for waiting for results and tomorrow Velvet needs to be started on the Chloramphenicol as a precaution, as so many bacteria are sensitive to it and this can always be altered when the results do come back.

Edit; Going out for the afternoon, won't be back until later today.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

The animal hospital where I've been taking Velvet has an emergency service, so I called to find out if perhaps Dr Pleban was working an emergency tour today...

She's not there today, but the receptionist made an appt. for him to see Dr Pleban tomorrow afternoon, and said to call first thing in the morning to see if I can get him "squeezed in" earlier. 

Dr Pleban is doing surgery in the AM but seems only to have 1 patient, so might finish early and be able to see him before the appointment I scheduled.

I hope everything stays in good order until then; I am struggling not to cave in to fear energy...

ETA: I gave Velvet ~41mg of the chloramphenicol (1/6 of a 250mg tab) in early afternoon, and have pulled the food & water from the cage, so he doesn't tank up (like Rosa apparently did last week).
I did not make him put the collar back on... since I didn't want to upset him enough to throw up anything else. 
I don't understand why he threw up some of the last food he had last night; his crop was empty when I fed him. 
His crop doesn't seem empty and doesn't seem full, so I haven't tried to give him anything, even cocktails.
He may have drunk some pedialyte from the cup in the hour or so that he was sans collar before I took the cup away. 
(It could have been Lena who drank; I'm not sure, but I can tell someone did).


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## rfboyer

*Update:*

Dr Pleban has seen Velvet again this afternoon, and she got a little more "stuff" out of his eye.
The inflammation is finally reduced enough for her to get a good look at the eye itself, and she thinks it will be fine.

She said Velvet's weight was better than she expected.
He was feistier with her today than he's been so far; he even pecked at her. 
Despite him having almost nothing to eat yesterday, she said the droppings he produced during the trip there were "not bad."

She checked his crop (empty) and went over the rest of his body, listened to his heart & lungs; did not discover anything extraordinary. 
She said to let him have pedialyte & small seeds dusted with medistatin, then larger seeds in a few days (continuing with the medistatin), since his digestion appears to be OK.
He does not have to wear the e-collar unless he messes with his eye a lot (= actual irritation, not just a feather stuck to edge of the ointment). 

The bacteria we're chiefly fighting are Staph Aureus, and among them is a particularly resistant strain (or several). 
Velvet will be getting Chloramphenicol twice daily (as close as possible to every 12 hours) for the next 3 weeks, and continuing with the gentamicin eye ointment. 
Dr Pleban said these particular bacteria are not susceptible to either Baytril or Doxycycline. 
Velvet's specimen will be under investigation at the lab for a few more days, and if anything else turns up, she will let me know, and prescribe accordingly.

The Chloramphenicol she gave me is liquid, and I was provided with little curved tips for the syringe to administer it down his throat. 
Are these tips useful for dosing pigeons, or mostly for other kinds of birds? It is the first I've seen them, and have not read of them here... 
The dose is .18ml so it's a small enough quantity. 
She said he could tongue it down, if that worked out better for us. 
The liquid has the ubiquitous "cherry flavoring" -- never expected that to taste good to pigeons.

@Karyn -- good call on the Chloramphenicol; thank you for suggesting that I start it early, as a precaution. 
Dr Pleban was happy that I did, though his Rx dose is a bit less than what I gave him yesterday (she used her calculator to figure the dose, and said the 41.x mg was a little above the dose range, but OK as a "loading dose.") 

So, Velvet and Lena get to spend a few more weeks in the house (long enough for another round of eggs, if Velvet is up to it)... 
I was hoping I'd have all the birds back in the loft a few days before I get a house guest and we all go to visit my folks for Christmas, but my pet-sitter is willing to learn how to give meds to a pigeon. He is worth his weight in Gold!


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## Dobato

Robin, thanks for the long and thorough update on Velvet's condition, and glad to hear he is a little feisty today. Yes, as you know the use of the Chloramphenicol has been on my mind for sometime now and when you reported that Velvet was acting worse, on top of already being sick, I thought it was best to stop procrastinating on his treatment get him stated on it ASAP.

Not to second guess your vet, but all the times that my vet has prescribed the med , it has more or less matched what is in my desk reference for pigeons recommends, 100mg/kg q12h. If a vet is not used to prescribing this med in pigeons they may be unaware that the Chloramphenicol is broken down by natural factors in the crop and this in turn inactivates some of the effectiveness of the medicine, so higher doses in pigeons need to be used. Here is a link that speaks to this and please notice the suggested dosing is 30-50mg a dose, 2-3 times a day and not 30-50mg/kg, 2-3 times a day, so the 41mg you gave Velvet was right on the money.

http://www.pigeontv.com/public/119.cfm

I mention this because I think it's important since we are dealing with a resistant form of bacteria that we treat in the proper suggested dosage range for pigeons. What strength is the suspension you have, as I would like to see what 0.18mL represents. Like I say, hate to play back seat driver, but I am quite familiar with this med and it's dosing in pigeons.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Karyn, the Chloramphenicol I have is 100mg/ml. 
Instructions are .18cc every 12 hours for 21 days.

That is a lower dose... I will call tomorrow and ask her about it.
Velvet weighed 375g today, he usually weighs more... 

I just hope he eats, drinks, and everything goes the way it's supposed to... 

I am weary from anxiety over whether he will not eat/drink enough, or throw up, aspirate, or some other way do himself a mischief that I "should" have seen coming and managed to prevent...


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## Dobato

Robin, that last bird I treated with Chloramphenicol, I was giving 0.70cc of a 50mg/mL suspension, so she was getting 35mg of Chloramphenicol twice a day. The dosing you are giving 0.18mL of a 100mg/mL suspension equals 18mg and my bird was lighter in weight than Velvet. As mentioned, useless she is familiar with pigeons and the reasons for higher doing amounts with them. Here is a dosing from IVIS (International Veterinary Information Service) for Chloramphenicol, if needed you could print it for her, the dose should be about double of his current recommended dose:

Robin, I am expecting him to respond well to the Chloramphenicol, it is very well tolerated at very high dosing amounts and like I mentioned before many bacteria that are resistant to many other antibiotics are sensitive to Chloramphenicol. If we can eliminate any infection that might be causing him to want to do the things that will cause him mischief, I think we will be ahead of the game.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Update:

The "final" lab report came in -- no anaerobic bacteria in this issue.
(apparently those take longer to culture...)

Velvet's eye is a lot less red, and though it's still pretty swollen, the swollen tissue is soft, not looking like it's about to burst. 

Lena coos a lot, especially when I have him out of the cage for feeding or meds, but hasn't been sitting in the nest bowl with him; he's mostly just been roosting on it, and she lounges in another corner or stands on the brick.

He is not enjoying being tube fed, but he's keeping everything down and starting to make better looking droppings.


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## Dobato

Glad things are a little better than worse and Velvet is keeping his food down. Please keep us updated on any further lab results.

Karyn


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## rfboyer

Update:

I have had to separate Velvet & Lena most of the time; she's wanting to preen him and do all the courting things now that she's off the dummy eggs. 
And, I want to be sure she gets enough to eat & drink, and I can't leave water in with Velvet because he will tank up and not be ready for formula.

Then, late this afternoon, he scratched his eye and made it bleed, so I put him back in his collar until I could make him a shoe, as Phil recommended, in hopes that will keep his foot out of his eye. 
He's wearing the shoe now; we'll see if he can get it off or not. I'm hoping this works, because he needs to be eating for himself, and I'm concerned that he won't eat enough if he has to wear the collar.

He will be visiting a vet tomorrow (though I'm not sure whom, yet), to recheck the eye and assess the effectiveness of the Chloramphenicol.

He's still being tube fed, and has been making good progress with increasing quantities; we're trying a small cup of pellets this evening. 
::crosses fingers::


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## rfboyer

On Monday, I took Velvet to see Dr Dorn, to get a second opinion and have "fresh eyes" on the problem. He and I reviewed all that had gone on in the past 7 or so weeks, and when he examined Velvet, discovered additional swelling below the inflamed eye, along the side of his face.

Dr Dorn took cell specimens from both swollen areas, and after examining the slides himself, informed me that what was there wasn't an ordinary infection or abscess, and recommended sending them out for further analysis, and we did.

Results today: malignant lymphoma 

With the additional swelling, that was worse today, no wonder he wasn't wanting to eat for himself, even though his digestion was not amiss, and over the past several days he had become less responsive to Lena (who has been wanting eggs all week), and his "good" eye's lids were becoming thick, so he could hardly see... 

Dr Dorn and I discussed what, if anything, might be done to maximize his quality of life and make him comfortable, and concluded that having tube fed him for the past week and a half was the only reason he was still here.

Seeing him pretty much ignoring Lena, and realizing that making Velvet open his beak in order to feed him was causing him pain, and not wanting to put him through any more hell, I took him to Dr Dorn this afternoon, and we set him free...


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## Dobato

Oh boy Robin...., I was really hoping that this was just a persistent infection caused by a resistant bacteria, I am very truly saddened to hear this news. I felt for a while something was being missed, but not cancer, it does remind me of my bird who had liver lymphoma, right up until the biopsy came back it was felt he had an infection. Sometimes the final act of kindness we can extend to them is to release them and set them free and I know coming to this decision is not an easy thing to do. Bless you for going the distance for Velvet. 

Karyn


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