# self destructing.



## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I am at a loss as to what I should do with that pigeon that I got after it was hit by a car. He ripped part of his injured wing off. and he ripped into his injured crop and it is not retaining his food anymore. Is there anything I can do? or at this point is there no point?

Mandie


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Mandie...A vet that is experienced in treating birds could sew up the crop depending upon the extent of the injury. If part of the wing is ripped off, this bird will be non releasable and need to become a permanent resident in someone's home or loft.
Do you have a vet in your area that treats birds? Can I help you find one?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Since they don't feel much by way of pain in the crop, that's an easy thing for them to do although you don't see it very often. I'm a'thinkin' that itching is probably the sensation most likely to cause that. Can you post a picture of the bird?

Pidgey


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

It is this pigeon

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f45/hit-by-car-32225.html

Its only half the crop. And I am unsure as to the extent of the damage, It will be hard to tell unless I rip the hunk of danging crop off. 

I had a pigeon that had his Crop ripped open by a rat and I stitched it up and the lil man did wonderfully. 

Should I remove the dangling piece? 

Charis he was already determined unreleasable by a vet. and He basically said there was nothing that could be done but wrapping the wing. and he already didnt like the looks of his crop. plus he was going on about the legalness of him "working" on a pigeon. 

Pidgey I wondered about it being Itchy as well. 
I will work on pics. 

Mandie


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

here are some pics. And just when i he started eating on his own.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Makes me sick.
I WOULDN'T rip off the hanging piece of crop!!! With as little left as is, I don't think you should be stiching it up either.
Take the bird back to the vet.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Charis, Mandie, and all ..

I think it is over for this pigeon.

Mandie, personally, I don't think that can be fixed, and it's time to have this bird put to sleep. I know I will get a lot of comments about this tomorrow, but that's my opinion, and it is not one I give lightly.

There is a SLIGHT possibility that all that "gunk" could be gotten out and the crop stitched, but I'm guessing there aren't any stitchable edges any longer. I'd say to take the bird back to the vet and see if something can be done, but unless you've got a really savvy vet that can pull off a miracle, it won't be happening. I am very, very sorry.

Terry


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

TA may well be right. But in the very least...IF this bird has ANY chance, it is not via any sort of home remedy. 

Mandie...this pidge MUST be taken to an avian vet ASAP. This injury is so extensive that it cannot possibly bet treated by a non-pro.

The vet will decide whether this poor guy has a chance a or not. It is not a decision which should be made by a non-vet.

This is terribly sad, and I thank you for helping give this guy at least a chance....but please get it to a vet first thing in the AM. If the vet you mentioned was saying the sorta stuff you mentioned and will not give his best effort, find another avian vet somewhere.

There are good intentions galore on this forum, and some knowledgeable folks, but this is a critical situation and beyond what advice folks can give here.

In the meantime, if you have any avian-strength painkillers, proper dilutions (I dunno, Ibuprophen, medacam, etc.) give some to the bird so he can get thru the next 12 hours.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, we're looking at a bird that you've had since just after Christmas, so a tad over two weeks. Frankly, it doesn't look like you'd think that any food could have gotten through that mess at all and although pictures can be deceiving sometimes, it's hard to imagine this one being so. If you've gotten solids in the poops in the last couple of weeks, though, one would have to assume that there's still something left in there. There was obviously a rupture of the crop that you could see bad stuff even in the picture from the 27th of December if you knew what you were looking at.

What a vet would normally do is clean out all that garbage until you could physically see pink flesh like that inside your mouth. Oh, there's definitely going to be some flesh that's orange or yellow-colored due to surrounding inflammation. One isn't going to know the real story until that's uncovered. So, the big question is whether or not there was still a path through or behind all that mess that was still allowing food and water to make it down to the digestive tract. If so, then where there's life there's hope. If not, then the prognosis certainly doesn't look good.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, just wondering if you could give us an update?


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

sorry I havent been back on. With this lovely cold weather I got sick. and have just been popping online in short spurts. But I am feeling better this evening. 

I know you all may not approve. (judging from your previous replies)

But I called my mentor and she told me to go by my gut feelings and do what I thought was right. Having just spent $80 at the vet just to have him tell me what he told me. I didnt want to walk that route again. 

and having taken TAWhatleys advice to heart. and almost agreeing accept that I knew I had to try and at least get a closer look. to be sure before I passed a death sentence. 

Having put the bird on pain a pain killer. I let my gut instinct take over and I took my closer look. And after clearing away all the food matter and dead skin (along the lines of what Pidgey said) I sutured his crop up. And it is healing well. I am still tubing Kaytee and will continue to do so for about 6 more days. He is still on pain meds and antibiodics.

I have pics pf the whole process if anyone is interested. I know you all said this shouldnt be done by a non-pro and I took it to heart. but my mentor said I wasnt a non-pro having the experiance I have and she has never been wrong before. 

for the first 24 hours I just subQed fluids. He is now empting his crop with normal poops. 

Mandie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Whew! Well, very glad to hear it! In one of the books that I've got, there was a pretty horrible loss of the front of the crop due to a fairly large crop burn. But the back half was okay and so they let it granulate for... however long it must have taken, and then finally sewed it back up. One glance at the "Before" picture and you'd have assumed that he was a goner. The "During" pictures weren't very promising either. But the "After"... well... he lived!

And that's the way it goes, sometimes.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Good on you, Mandie! I'm glad the procedure went well and that the bird is recovering. You did an AWESOME job! Please do keep us posted and send more pics if you can. As I posted, I really didn't see much of a way out for this bird, but I'm glad you tried and succeeded. I, personally, would be very interested in seeing the pictures. If you care to send them, my e-mail is [email protected]

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, by the way, according to one of my vets, they don't actually appear to feel pain when you're suturing their crops. They will flinch when you're suturing the skin, but not the crop. And, for that matter, they don't appear to feel pain when getting their oviducts worked on either. My one vet gets them under and then tapers off the anaesthesia (just like it tells to do in the Big Book) so they don't code (cardiac arrest) while under. In order to gauge how far they're under, he pays close attention to their reactions while he's working on them. They never react to the stuff done to the oviduct--only to being sewn back up when you're closing the abdominal wall and then the skin. It's a curious thing. And, curiously, there was a case of a parrot of some sort that got its foot momentarily stuck in a hanging toy in its cage and then chewed its own foot off within less than a half-hour in order to get free. You reallly gotta' wonder sometimes...

Pidgey


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

That's amazing, Mandie, you've literally done the impossible!
Very best wishes for his continued recovery.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, many, many thanks for the positive update. I have really worried about this little guy and I'm very happy he is doing so well.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

I'm sorry Mandie but I have to agree with Terry on this one. You have done everything you can and then some but sometimes enough is enough. Good Luck and again I am sorry

Cindy


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Thanks for the positive replies. Since some people are sensitive to the pics I wont push them unless I get the all ok. I plan to a vet so my stomach is not sensitive to this type stuff. 

TAWhatley I will email them to you. 

Pidgey I have also noticed that they show no pain when it comes to there crops. I had Smudges head covered up well I was "operating" and I kept having to recover his head b/c he was making me nervous b/c he was so intent on watching 

He is still as fiesty as ever. 
Mandie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks, Mandie! I'll look forward to seeing the pics .. I'm not squeamish and am very interested. I'm so glad you have proven me wrong on this one!

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

TAWhatley said:


> Thanks, Mandie! I'll look forward to seeing the pics .. I'm not squeamish and am very interested. I'm so glad you have proven me wrong on this one!
> 
> Terry


Ack I was not trying to prove you wrong. In fact your post shook my resolve at what I thought I should do. But my mentor renewed my trust in myself if that makes sense. That and "sadly" Im a attached to the lil man who I think hates me. I think its his drive to fight that has gotten him this far. Just gotta love Smudge. 

Mandie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Naturesgift said:


> Ack I was not trying to prove you wrong. In fact your post shook my resolve at what I thought I should do. But my mentor renewed my trust in myself if that makes sense. That and "sadly" Im a attached to the lil man who I think hates me. I think its his drive to fight that has gotten him this far. Just gotta love Smudge.
> 
> Mandie


That came across wrong from me .. I'm not at all upset that you've done what needed to be done for this bird .. merely admitting that from the pics that I didn't think there was much of a chance. I know you weren't setting out to prove me wrong but were only doing the very best you could for the bird .. that's exactly how it should be!  My very, very best to Smudge and you!

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

phew did you get the pics?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Naturesgift said:


> phew did you get the pics?


Yep! Great job you did there! Your suturing is very nice! I don't think there is any problem with you posting those pictures here if you care to .. it's up to you. I think when the members see the improvement in the situation, there will be no problem.

If you do decide to post the pics, just put a warning that the pics are graphic and members should look at their own risk though the pics aren't really that "tough" to handle.

Truly a great job! I hope Smudge will be fit as a fiddle again soon!

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok! Well I dont have time tonight b/c I have a baby calf that needs a bottle and few other odd jobs to do. But I will post them tomorrow. 

Goodnight all
Mandie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

A little late now, but is this really an AGSG banded bird? No big deal, but if it isn't, I'll move the threads to the "regular" sick/injured forum.

Terry


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

I would love to see the pictures. A couple of questions tho..
What type of suture thread did you use? What type of pain killers do you give the bird? What do you use to clean the wound/crop?
What/how did you doctor the wing? The reason I am asking is I take care of unwanted ducks and geese and I occasionally get them after a fox, coyote or bobcat attack.
No veterinarian around here wants to do much for the birds (Maybe in-experience on their part?) so my doctoring has been limited to pretty much cleaning them up (Sterile water with a little bit of non-iodized salt in it), a spray-on wound coat to help protect the area and a soft bed of straw in a dark, warm area. I have a pretty good success rate, but I am always willing to try something new if it has worked for other people.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Mandie,

Great job!

I too would like to see the pics.

Maybe you could upload them to a private web album (I use Google's Picasa) and provide a link, so only those interested have the option to view or not to view?

Larry


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Just saw this thread and I must say it's nothing short of miraculous.  When I saw the pics and what Terry had written, I must admit I was in agreement, until I saw it was a few days old and your new posts show he's doing well. BRAVO!! I PTS as a very, very last resort, but that poor guy looked so awful I couldn't imagine how you could fix him up. But you did it! I would also be interested in seeing the pictures. I have had to sew up injuries in emergency situations (fortunately only a few times!!) but I can't imagine how you did it. Amazing!! And don't worry if he "hates" you right now. The ones I had to sew up hated me for a few days and then became buddies with me after awhile. So there's hope. I can't tell you what an amazing job you've done in saving this life.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I am going to Attach Pics. 

I actually couldnt tighten the stitches like I learned in NY b/c it would tear the skin. And also the rip went right up onto the wing. so a piece of the crop is practically stitched right onto were the wing attaches. you cant see the stitches really well by the wing bit if you look close they are there. I didnt do single stitches but rather a continual stitch. 


(I actually had to use sterile tweezers to remove the contents of his crop)

I hope this is helpful to someone later on.

UncleBuck It was a disposable suture I cant remember the size but I will ask the lady I got ity from (the lady who taught me) I just used Aspirin as a pain killer as its what I had in hand. what do you mean by clean the crop/wound do you mean medicine or how I took all the gunk from around the wound?

For hte wing I just keep It In a figure 8 Wrap (thats what the vet said to do since there was nothing else that coukd be done) I used to also do a body wrap but with the crop issue being right were I would have to wrap, i just have the wing wrapped. 

I also like to use the "new skin" 

Mandie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's going to take awhile to fully heal. And you'll probably have to redo it from time to time, hard to tell. Got recent pictures?

Pidgey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Mandie,

Thank you for putting up the pictures. You did an excellent job. As horrible as that looks, in two weeks you will see how much has filled in. Could you take some pictures, perhaps weekly so we can see the progress? He is a fighter, that little guy. He really wants to live. I cared for a chicken once whose leg had been torn off at the hip by a raccoon. The whole thing healed up from the inside out and the bird recovered completely, so I think both wing and crop will come along well. 

I'm glad you went ahead and treated this guy. You gave him a really good chance of making it. I might try to get some Metacam as a pain killer and healing promoter for him. What do others think? It worked really well for some injuries I treated in the past.

Margaret


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Margarret he is completely off pain killers now and I am using herbs that promote healing. 

Here are some update pics. An up close of the wound, the second is of the whole crop, so you can see why it was hard to stitch it since there was a whole hunk missing, not a rip. 

Today I am reintroducing solids. But since I had such a rouch time before getting him to eat well in a cage I put him in one of our gardens that has chicken mesh around it. and I set some food out. So he can walk about "free ranging" and still be visited by my other pigeons who also wanted to share in his food. Poor guy still thinks he can fly. But sadly I think I may have to amputate his wing if it doesnt stop "hanging" when unwrapped.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks so much for the update. He is looking really good.


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