# road training/tossing



## ericwadde3 (Oct 1, 2012)

Im keeping the first set of babies from each of my pairs for myself to fly them and see how they do before entering any other of the offspring into races. My question is when I toss them, how many should I take. Is it best to fly a bird solo or turn 5 or 6 out at a time together?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I like to toss as a group for the first two tosses at each distance, then do one from each distance as a group of 5 and finally some single tossing from some of the further away release points, I am a new flyer though so can't tell you how this works but so far the birds are coming home fast with only one loss out of 20 birds. Only out to 20 miles though at the moment. Too hot to go any further


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I like to toss as a group for the first two tosses at each distance, then do one from each distance as a group of 5 and finally some single tossing from some of the further away release points, I am a new flyer though so can't tell you how this works but so far the birds are coming home fast with only one loss out of 20 birds. Only out to 20 miles though at the moment. Too hot to go any further


Bear in mind you dont have a hawk prob in oz.
Its not that big a problem in the UK either depending on location, but they seem quite prominent in the US, and a lone or even low numbers of birds are hawk bait.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Oz??? I am not sure what the hawk problem is like in OZ?, We don't have a problem in NZ. Some of the most reputable US fliers use the single tossing system, I guess when training for racing you want the birds that can evade the hawks so its a good selection measure. It is Nature afterall, I have heard the race guys talk about a hawk evader gene, I think Warren Smith believes its best to breed birds that can evade hawks and I also believe he single tosses but don't qoute me on that.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Oz??? I am not sure what the hawk problem is like in OZ?, We don't have a problem in NZ..


LOL, thats what I get for typin on a phone - sorry to insult you (and any ozzies  )


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Lol, I did wonder if it was a typo but the o is so far on a qwerty from the n, makes sense now though.... No insult, We're two of the same really.


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## scott.peets (Dec 1, 2012)

Everyone has different techniques. Like mentioned I would say group tosses at first and then thin it down maybe 2 at a time rather than one. Also If you have OB that are trained to your loft use them as a partner to you YB they will show them the way. (good old birds)


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I would say do group tosses up to 25 miles because if you do single tosses at these smaller distances you'll only be wasting fuel and it won't make much of a difference (if any). Ideally, I wouldn't even do single tosses till about 40 miles. At 40 miles, I'd do 2 group tosses, and then the third time there I'd do groups of 5 or so.

At 50 or 60 miles however (whatever your furthest training point is), I'd do single tosses from. Because at this distance the birds really need to think in order to get home. 

Single tosses require a lot of time. Say you have 20 young birds, ideally you want to let out 1 bird after every 5-7 mins (minimum). Any lower than that and the birds will all meet up at some point down the line of flight. 10 minutes would be great but who has that much time!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am not sure how it would waste fuel, Time maybe, You take all the birds out, Sit down and let them go 5 mins apart, Have the clock set up to test their times and your set.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

I just don't think its necessary to do any single tosses up to 20-25 miles. Rather to do 2 or 3 group tosses from each location up to 30 miles, and then toss in smaller groups or single toss after that. Might not be a huge saving of fuel but time for sure. Plus you're going to lose some young birds in training anyways. So might as well single toss the ones you know have made it home as a group from at least 30 miles. 

I think single tossing can only be really good for the first few "single toss" attempts. Keeping in mind that pigeons have really good eye sight, they can probably spot the other pigeons flying home down the road so they might not be thinking as well as you think they are. After a few single toss attempts they'll figure out the routine being smart birds. Now single tossing can only be helpful like I mentioned if you send each bird like 10 minutes after the one before it was released. If you had a team of say 30 birds (which is below average, most people have 40-60 ybs) you'd essentially be releasing 6 birds an hour (if released 10 minutes apart), 8 birds (if released 7.5 minutes apart), 10 birds (if released 6 minutes apart), and 12 birds if released 5 minutes apart. So with a team of 30 birds, you could easily spend 2 hours a day, 3-4 times a week (depending on how many training tosses you plan to do a week).

I think what would be a more time efficient is to single toss only those birds who you plan to send to a race. But even then, after a few races the birds get to know the area very well.

So there can be a big debate on how effective single tossing can really be when time, money, and your schedule come into play. Personally, I'd group toss up to 30 miles (release at 1 mile, 3, 5, 10, 20, 25, 30 - 3 times each location in the line of flight) and then single toss from 50 miles to thin out the flock and separate the leaders from the followers. After single tossing from 50 miles 3 times, I'd have a pretty good idea on what kind of team I have, and which are the birds to beat (internal competition) and I'd just do 25 or 30 miles training tosses in between the races.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Gee, Thats a lot of training tosses, I figure if your birds loft fly for an hour and a half every morning on their own will you only need to take them out say 15 times all up before the first race, then as old birds maybe 5 training tosses to get them into the mood so I think the calculations you have worked out are only applicable to those who cannot get their birds loft flying and need to force fly them by taking them miles away from the loft.

With regards to birds being 5 mins apart being able to see the one infront and flying fast to get to it, Is that such a bad thing, If my bird was second by 5 mins on raceday I sure as hell would want it to be flying as hard and fast as it can to catch that bird thats 5 mins ahead. Thats if a bird 5 mins infront of another is in sight, I actually doubt that claim but I am going on your math here.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Gee, Thats a lot of training tosses, I figure if your birds loft fly for an hour and a half every morning on their own will you only need to take them out say 15 times all up before the first race, then as old birds maybe 5 training tosses to get them into the mood so I think the calculations you have worked out are only applicable to those who cannot get their birds loft flying and need to force fly them by taking them miles away from the loft.
> 
> With regards to birds being 5 mins apart being able to see the one infront and flying fast to get to it, Is that such a bad thing, If my bird was second by 5 mins on raceday I sure as hell would want it to be flying as hard and fast as it can to catch that bird thats 5 mins ahead. Thats if a bird 5 mins infront of another is in sight, I actually doubt that claim but I am going on your math here.


I think a lot more goes into question than just whether or not your birds loft fly or not. Mine do, but my birds have to deal with hawk problems that probably aren't the same anywhere else in North America. I live in BC, on the mainland, about 50 km's East of Vancouver. On Vancouver Island, which is West of Vancouver, the government breeds birds of prey in captivity and releases them onto the mainland. Because of this we get a lot of hawks in the area, plus being such a green place, there is a lot of prey maturely available for them. In a situation like this, loft flying can only be plausible sometimes. If you get hit by the hawks regularly, its probably smarter to just road train them to decrease the chances of getting hit.

As far as the number of training tosses go, what I mentioned is what a majority of people use. Release at 1 mile, 3, 5, 10, 20, 25, 30 - 3 times each location in the line of flight. Maybe take out the 3 mile and 25 mile training tosses. As far as I know, even if your birds loft fly like crazy, 9 out of 10 people still road train their birds in between the races. 

So unless you're retired or a full time pigeon fancier, single tossing can become very hectic, very soon. The results probably won't be much different either. However, single tossing can be REALLY helpful in the early stages of training. Single tossing birds from 50 miles once they have successfully come home as a group from 40 miles, can help you to eliminate the followers. That is as far as I know, the goal of single tossing? (You want leaders, not followers). So when you do these single tosses, you'll essentially lose some of your followers and your leaders will become smarter.


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## ericwadde3 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the info!


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

If you search around in this forum, you will find a study done back in the early 70's, the results of that study that was done with 3 groups of birds, it doesnt really matter how you release them in numbers, but the number of toss is more important. I have found that study to be very accurate.


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## ericwadde3 (Oct 1, 2012)

So do you always take them in the same direction?


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Thats also debatable, I let my birds go from a different point EVERY TIME, I want them to be flying and looking ahead for home, Not flying looking at the ground and playing connect the dots with landmarks, I go north at 1 mile, south at 1 mile, east at 1 mile, west at 1 mile then back north and out from there 1 - 5 - 20 x2 and then 40 x3. Our first club toss is 60 this year.

Just go with what you feel will work, if your not winning try something different, I have based my decisions on advice from guys here but I have tried to ask my birds if that makes sense, They did 20 the other afternoon for the first time and they looked great, The next morning they loft flew for 1:45 mins and came back looking great, Flew that arvo for 30 mins, I gave them the next day off. That tells me they were ready to go to 20 if not further.


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## BetaPigeon (Mar 17, 2010)

*yb training*



ericwadde3 said:


> So do you always take them in the same direction?


Here is my take on YB traning. Once they are routing for 1 to 2 hours and out of site for 45-60 mins, time to take them down the road. If you think about it, they are out of site for 45 mins, they must be going out at least 5 miles, and the fact they are cicrling they have gone in all directions. I do take then a very short distance, in site of the loft the 1st few times, this is just to get them used to being released from a basket. My first offical toss is 5 miles in the direction of the first race station. I then start increasing the distance as I feel how good they did on the last toss. Keep in mind short distances they may fly right over the loft and out to where they have been loft flying so I disregard short toss under 30 miles. I make at least 25 tosses, IMO, its better to get your birds in physical conditon vs taking to say the 1st race station. One of your best flyers in our club never goes over 40 miles.

Had saying all that , if you ask 10 flyers about traning you will get 10 different answers. What I did was to try and determine common things they were all doing and go with that. Best adivse I could give is for you to do the same and come up with a your plan and stick to it , modify if needed. 

Good luck


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## triple7loft (Nov 22, 2012)

Revolution I think you should stick to reading the forum threads not posting since you have never flown a young bird season yet.....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/ob-racing-question-65075.html#post704611





Revolution Lofts said:


> I would say do group tosses up to 25 miles because if you do single tosses at these smaller distances you'll only be wasting fuel and it won't make much of a difference (if any). Ideally, I wouldn't even do single tosses till about 40 miles. At 40 miles, I'd do 2 group tosses, and then the third time there I'd do groups of 5 or so.
> 
> At 50 or 60 miles however (whatever your furthest training point is), I'd do single tosses from. Because at this distance the birds really need to think in order to get home.
> 
> Single tosses require a lot of time. Say you have 20 young birds, ideally you want to let out 1 bird after every 5-7 mins (minimum). Any lower than that and the birds will all meet up at some point down the line of flight. 10 minutes would be great but who has that much time!


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

triple7loft said:


> Revolution I think you should stick to reading the forum threads not posting since you have never flown a young bird season yet.....
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/ob-racing-question-65075.html#post704611


I find that a rude comment. I might not have flown a young bird season, but I have been following racing pigeons, feeding, training, etc religiously for the last 3 years. On top of that I did train young birds last year, just didn't end up racing. Moreover, I probably have more research compiled on racing pigeons than most pigeon fanciers due to my interest in using racing pigeons as therapy animals. 

No where in my post did I say I'm an expert at pigeon racing. I was simply giving my opinion, which in a free country like Canada I'm allowed to do (I don't know how things are in the States). Maybe instead of bashing on other people, you should stick to reading the forums?

I always read threads on this forum that suggested members of the pigeon racing community that are also members on this forum are quick to become judgmental. In my many years of being a member on this site, for the first time I have experienced such a thing.


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## First To Hatch (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't start tossing until 4-5 weeks before the first race. I toss them in groups of 10 until I reach 50 miles, after I reach 50 miles I'll do two pigeons at a time with a buddy of mine, so there will be 4 birds but 2 going to one loft and two going to the other, to teach them to break. I only toss in 2s when I am with someone because I get bored doing that 15+ times by myself.


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## Josepe (Jan 10, 2011)

Ask six people for an opinion,you'll get six different answers. Also there can be alot of different things come into play for different flyers.It all boils down to what works best for YOUR birds.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

triple7loft said:


> Revolution I think you should stick to reading the forum threads not posting since you have never flown a young bird season yet.....
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/ob-racing-question-65075.html#post704611


I have to agree with Revolution Loft. Your comment was rude, and i'm wondering what prompted it. The original poster wanted information about road training/tossing. Revolution was expressing his own opinions/experiences about the subject being discussed, which is his right. It is possible to have gained enough experience in training your birds without ever flying a race. Everyone who has ever raced started out training young birds before those birds were entered in their first race. 

Please think about your comments, and how they may be taken, before posting.


Please feel free to PM me if you feel the need to respond. Otherwise, lets let this thread get back to training/tossing birds


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I have never flown a race but have taken coloured homers out on many many tosses, I have a lot to learn about prepping a bird for a race but have a bit of experience in letting birds go from other locations as I am sure revolution lofts does.

I think the Op'er can learn a lot from people starting out in tossing birds as they are at the same stage in learning.

Lots of good tips here and good discussion about why and how to do things which is always great.


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## Granny Smith (Jul 16, 2011)

Most of us in my area will get our birds out to about 20 miles, and then we start training our birds together. That forces the birds to have to think on their own and not just follow the pack. It also saves on gasoline.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I have never flown a race but have taken coloured homers out on many many tosses, I have a lot to learn about prepping a bird for a race but have a bit of experience in letting birds go from other locations as I am sure revolution lofts does.
> 
> I think the Op'er can learn a lot from people starting out in tossing birds as they are at the same stage in learning.
> 
> Lots of good tips here and good discussion about why and how to do things which is always great.


Even for those of us that have no intentions of racing. It is very interesting to see how these birds are trained and the dedication of the owners that is needed to do this well. Thanks to all for a great thread.


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