# Beak problem...HELP PLEASE!!!



## kajupakhi

Hi,

I have a 7 year old pigeon, Last year his upper beak started growing abnormally and then
breaking. But we were able to solve the problem with proper medication as prescribed
by the doctor.

But these days I am noticing that the front part of his lower beak(inside his mouth)
where the little curve that holds their tongue should be, is filled up 
with some hard substance. As a result he 
is having a hard time eating. He is taking FOR EVER to hold the seeds with the tip of his beak
and an even harder time pulling the seeds with his tongue to swallow down his throat. Most of the 
time the seeds are either coming out on their own from his mouth because of his inablity to swallow
else they are getting stuck somewhere inside his lower or upper beak and then he has to throw them out
on his own.
Also, he is unable to close his mouth completely, there seems to be a hollow between 
the front part of his upper and lower beak even when he is closing his mouth.

I took him to the doctor 2 days ago and he said that this problem is occuring because he is getting old and so his lower
beak and tongue areas are loosing its slippery nature, so the food particles are constantly being deposited in the curve
of his lower beak.The doctor even scrapped and took out as much of these depositions as he could. He even gave a medicine
to put in his lower beak to make it more slippery.

However, the problem seems to have become worse since then. HE CAN *HARDLY EAT NOW!! *infact over the last 2 days he lost a 
lot of weight and today I had to feed him,coz the poor fellow could hardly help himself.

I am here for only 2 weeks, and I am getting *REALLY WORRIED*...if anyone has had similar experiences or has any suggestion,
please let me know.Inspite of his beak problem, he seems active and healthy. However, I am worried that if he is unable 
to eat, then he will grow weak and die.

Thanks

KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

Was Trichomoniasis (common name: Canker) ever discussed? Is this deposited stuff yellowish like cheddar cheese?

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi Pidgy,

Thanks for your reply, no it does not seem like canker...I looked carefully.
The deposition seems more white than yellow and solid and hard...not soft/cheesy.

Let me know what you think


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## Pidgey

Well, I think I'd look at it under a microscope if it were me. Out on the tip, it might tend to dry up and give that appearance. If I was shooting blind like that, I'd probably get the bird started on an anti-protozoal like Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole or one of the other ones if possible. I'd do that while I was in the process of trying to figure out what else it could be.

You see, canker (as well as other things) that form plaques are essentially oozing pus that in birds is thicker than the stuff that we make. But it still dries down.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi Pidgy,

Thanks for your reply...its really helpful!!! I never thought that it could be dried puss...but its possible!!!, however, he seems to have enough strength in his beak still...coz he can still bite me real hard and always fights with is son, biting each other.
Let me know what you think?...have you ever had similar problem with your birds?

Also "anti-protozoal like Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole"--- what do they do? sounds good to me.


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## Pidgey

Canker is a flagellating protozoa. That is, it's a little one-celled organism that has whiplike appendages that it wiggles in order to move about. Those medications are in the Nitroimidazole family and they kill 'em if they're not too resistant. There is a difference between killing all the organisms and healing from the lesions, though. Around here, Metronidazole is usually called "Flagyl" and I have no idea what it is there (you're visiting in India, right?) but you'll have to research that.

It's always possible that it's something else, though, like Pox (Avian Poxvirus) or perhaps another kind of infection due to fighting with the other pigeons. I've got one bird that gets in fights all the time and he's got his beak messed up quite a bit--it can get kinda' ugly. If it's canker, then your vet should be able to make a wet-mount smear (take a sample by a wet Q-tip and smear it on a slide, put a coverslip over it, examine at 100x total magnification and look for trichomonads wiggling around) and see them.

The dosing for Metronidazole would be something like 10-30 mg/kg, BID or 20-50 mg/kg QD (once daily), for 5 to 10 days depending.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

HI Pidgey,

THANKS A LOT FOR BRINGING TO MY NOTICE THAT IT COULD BE CANKER!!!!
I was reading about canker on net and his symptoms matches very well.

The article I read says---
"Affected pigeons in a loft may cease to feed, become listless and ruffled in appearance, and lose weight before death. Pigeons often have difficulty when closing their mouths because of lesions in the oral cavity. They drool and make repeated swallowing movements. Watery eyes may be apparent in birds"
---well, Kaju is not listless, but everything else is just the same...sometimes, I see that his eyes are getting watery these days, and often when he sleeps, he makes swallowing movements....he made these movements the last year I was here as well, but the doctor explained that it was nothing important...BUT NOW I THINK ITS CANKER!!!...also, this time, it seems that he has some breathing problem as well.

I am here for only 2 weeks...have to go back to work soon, and I dunno if the doctors here know about Canker and what meds they have...GOD!!! if it was USA, I would not be worried , coz I know that it can be treated. But here in India I feel soooooo scared and helpless...I AM SOOOO SCARED OF LOOSING KAJU...Its 11:30 at night here...time for me to go to bed, but I won't be able to sleep tonight, now that I think that he probably has canker.
I will get in touch tomorrow

PLEASE GUYS PRAY THAT HE GETS WELL SOON


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## Pidgey

It's always nice to have a Dx (Diagnosis) but that's kinda' loose in this case because there are other things it could be. Another aspect of this possibility, though, is that if you've got more than one bird and they all drink out of the same waterer, they're all likely to be carrying it and so it's possible to cure the bird only for him to turn around and get it again. Usually with canker, you have to cure the entire loft at the same time. It's mostly a problem with younger birds (in the nestling to 2 months old range) but older birds can start having problems due to... getting older. So, that adds to your burden if that's what he, in fact, has.

I forgot to mention that a common medicine for this is Emtryl which is Dimetridazole. If you use that, it typically comes in a powder and you have to be more careful with the dosing of that stuff because it can cause bad problems if they overdose on it.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

Hi kajupakhi,

I'm so sorry to hear about Kaju.

Is there anyway you can provide us a picture (a good clear closeup) of the beak and the lesion?

Also, sometimes a bird with Canker will have bad breath too.


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## feralpigeon

kajupakhi, I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties that you are having w/Kaju's
health. I would also be curious to know what the specific medications and 
dosages are that this pigeon is being treated for. It's possible for medications to have side effects and this is worth taking a look at. Pictures would be great if you can swing it.

fp


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## kajupakhi

Hi Treesa, Pidgey,

Thanks a lot for your replies.
Its 9:30 am in the morning in India, and I rushed Kaju to another Doctor this morning and just came back...well he says that its not canker but some fungal infection. However, he was not able to see the white depositions coz it had already been scrapped out by the Doctor I visited previously.
But he said that the white stuffs in Canker cannot be scraped out, they need to be cut out and would bleed, since we were able to scrape them out without cutting, so its not canker...*WHAT DO U GUYS THINK?*...I told him about the other symptoms and he still says that its not canker...He also said that the other doctor SHOULD NEVER HAVE SCRAPED THE DEPOSITIONS, should have used meds for removal instead...this new doc gave me new meds for treatment....

But I am VERY confused by now about what to do. It will BE GREAT IF ITS NOT CANKER AND JUST REGULAR FUNGAL INFECTION, but since there is no proper facility for Diagnosis...HOW CAN I BE SO SURE?

So I am thinking of self-treating them of canker.
Pidgey talked about the canker meds available in US like "Metronidazole, Ronidazole, Secnidazole ". I am thinking of making my partner buy them from US and ship them over to India very quickly so I can get them treated for Canker before I leave in 2 weeks. Since I am in hurry,so I do not want to order them online, rather I will have my partner go to a nearby animal med shop to buy them. 

*I live in Vienna, Virginia, USA, and my zip is 22180.
Can any one of you guys please help me locate any such med shop near that area*...alternatively any online shop which will deliver quickly will do as well.
It will be of great help if you guys can provide that information.
*Also, I want to know if there are any harmful effects of treating my birds of canker, if suppose they do not really have it???????????PLEASE LET ME KNOW*

Treesa--Its an excellent idea to take a picture of his mouth and post it to u guys. I will try to do so soon!!!
However I will have to arrange for his picture to be taken and then get it scanned...it could take a day or 2. 
Moreover, you will not be able to see the white depositions coz they have already been scrapped out.
However, I will still arrange to get his picture taken so u guys can have a look.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR HELP

KAjupakhi


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## TAWhatley

Hi Kajupakhi,

It won't hurt to treat for canker even if the birds don't have it. You might try looking for the brand name of the drug, which is Flagyl. Most of the on-line pigeon supply houses have canker drugs readily available though they may not be exactly the generic metronidazole. You can also look in the local pet/fish stores for Fishzole or an equivalent .. it should be the same drug as what we are looking for. Also, you could check for some local pigeon clubs and see if any of the members could help you out.

What meds did the second doctor give you .. presumably for a fungal infection?

Terry


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## kajupakhi

Hi fp,
thanks a lot for your reply...well most of the meds available here that I give to Kaju is for humans. The most common vitamin/ mineral/calcium med that I give is called "zest"(3 drops a day) and I give him "immolyte-c" and albendazole once a year for worms. And some powder for lice.

But this year when I came to India, I also noticed that his feathers are getting reddish...docs say that its due to liver problems, so he has some new meds for that, though I have not started giving it yet, and today the doctor prescribed some new meds...I do not have the names at this momment, I will give them to you when I get them sometines later...but they are all meds available locally here in India.

Thanks

Kajupakhi


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## feralpigeon

Hi there,

Have either of these doctors run any lab work on your bird, this I am curious
about. 

Birds do get fungal infections,
sometimes they can be severe, not to frighten you. Like canker, some types of fungal infections can invade the organs. Thrush in the mouth can/will come off, I've seen it actually come off in a kind of sheet on one rescue.
Some people do remove the canker growths, although there are ample warnings at different sites and in books not to do so as well, it can cause bleeding. You can take a cue tip dipped in the canker medication and apply
it directly to a growth to help it dry up and kill the trophozoite itself.

There are Pigeon Supply Houses here that you can order meds through and they can, depending on your shipping choice arrive within a day or two....
They are listed in a link here in the Resource Section .

Here's a link on Albendazole that you should probably read:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...panacur+pigeons&d=a3NY45IFNgHJ&icp=1&.intl=us

Might be taxing your pet's liver.

fp .


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## kajupakhi

Hi Terry, Fp,

the meds prescribed by the second doctor is:

1. Candid oral--2 drops in the mouth for the depositions.

2. Roxy-I---1/10th of this tablet twice for antibiotics, for occational watery eyes and swallowing motions in throat etc.

The above 2 are meds for humans.

3. ambiplex ---this is an animal med for good liver and feathers etc

4. Zest--for minerals/calcium/vitamins(I have been using that for more than 1 year and its good)

Its good to know that there are no negative effects for canker treatment...I will get that done then...is there any specific good med shop in our area in USA where my partner can go and buy? U see, he is ignorant about animals and their meds, and will not be able to venture and find out... so I will have to provide him with all the details and he will then buy and ship them over to me in India

Thanks
Kajupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Thanks fp for bringing to my notice that Albenzole can be so harmful!!!
It was prescribed by the doc...and I only give him 3 drops for 3 days, once a year...but maybe its not a good idea...moreover, I do not think that they ever had worms..I just treated them to be on the safe side...

No none of the docs have done any test on Kaju...I dont think that they have those facilities

I am rushing out to arrange for his mouth picture to be taken...I will get back to u guys tomorrow morning(US time)

Bye now and pray that he gets well soon!!

Thanks
Kajupakhi


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## Victor

kajupakhi said:


> Also, I want to know if there are any harmful effects of treating my birds of canker, if suppose they do not really have it???????????PLEASE LET ME KNOW[/B][/COLOR]
> 
> However, I will still arrange to get his picture taken so u guys can have a look.
> 
> 
> KAjupakhi


Hi Kajupakhi, There are no harmful effects on your birds if you treat them for canker at all. It is best to be safe than sorry later. Keep your ill pigeon isolated from the others till we figure out exactly what is wrong with him. I am sorry you and your beloved pigeon are going through this. A picture will most certainly help whenever you can get one posted. I will say a prayer for you both tonight.


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## kajupakhi

Hi Victor,

Thanks a lot for your reply..."I will say a prayer for you both tonight"--- that's very sweet and kind...I know that I will find some of the most caring people on earth in this site!!!
Yeah!! I am thinking of treating them of canker before I leave for USA. And I will arrange for the picture of his mouth.

I WAS VERY HAPPY WHEN TOOTER CAME BACK!!!! I think that that was one of the happiest journey that the folks of this site went through...specially knowing how much you suffered due to his flying off being scared of the Hawk. I too prayed that he would come back!!!

Thanks again
KAjupakhi


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## Lovebirds

kajupakhi said:


> *I live in Vienna, Virginia, USA, and my zip is 22180.
> Can any one of you guys please help me locate any such med shop near that area*...alternatively any online shop which will deliver quickly will do as well.
> It will be of great help if you guys can provide that information.
> *Also, I want to know if there are any harmful effects of treating my birds of canker, if suppose they do not really have it???????????PLEASE LET ME KNOW*
> 
> 
> 
> KAjupakhi


I don't know if this will help at all??......but thought it might be worth a try. We have two people on our "rescue" list that are close to Vienna, VA. You might have your friend call and see if either of these people have the meds you need and would be willing to sell him some to send to you. One is an actual Vet, so I don't know that they would dispense any meds without actually seeing the bird. Wouldn't hurt to ask though..This is assuming that our list is up to date. Hopefully one of them can help. I'm in VA myself, but I don't have any of the meds that you are looking for. Sorry.  

Todd Luongo
Alexandria, Va
703-625-6983
[email protected]

Dr. Rose Ann Fiskett 
Potomac Valley Veterinary Hospital
9553 Braddock Road
Fairfax, VA
703-425-7387


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## Pidgey

Well, after all of this, it's kind of confusing, isn't it? I have seen Canker deposits that came off with almost no attachment when like a ring around the base of the tongue. This doesn't sound quite like that. There are often differences in what we typically see regionally and the bulk of us are in the US, Canada and the UK. India is definitely a different place with different problems, environment conditions and diseases. Theoretically, your vets over there should be more versed in recognizing local variants and their presentations than us.

That said and assuming it's a fungal infection, one has to wonder what would be the cause. It's just a fact of life that the immune system gets weaker with age and things like that can happen. I expect that you don't have a lot of winter, do you? Is your area of India one of those where it's generally fairly warm and humid? That right there would mean that the incidence of fungal infections should rise.

The question would then shift to how your birds are housed, how their food is kept and what the quality is. There are products that are for sale in the pigeon supply houses here that are intended to be added to the food as a powder for the sole purpose of stopping fungal growth in the crop and GI. The basic medicine is Nystatin and the one that I've got is Medistatin:

http://jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=88&SubCategoryID=1017&ProductID=4046

Nystatin is a drug that is not absorbed into the body from the GI tract so it's about as safe as they get. It will stop fungal infections as long as it touches them. It is also something that you can put in their feed year round. It sure would be nice if one of the doctors would do a simple microscopic test because that might lay it to rest pretty quick.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

I think I'd continue w/the fungal medication while also seeing if you can't get 
your hands on some canker meds and treat for that. You mentioned the upper
and lower mandibles not making contact, kind of a warping where they just don't close together the way they normally should. This is something that I have seen
with canker, the rescue I mentioned actually had both canker and yeast. That
'warping' that I've seen w/canker, I've also seen return to normal after the canker medication treatment.

As mentioned, the canker meds are safe medications, and the bird will be going on a 'stressful' (in that it's not what he's used to) trip. Stress is one of the contributing factors to a growth in the population of the Trichomonads, so probably best to be on the safe side if getting the meds is do-able.
Once here, perhaps you could bring your pet to the vet that Rene posted the
name for who is close by and have a check up w/her.

Are you able to bring medications back with you to India on your return trip?
If so, you could order from one of the Supply Houses somewhat close by and 
get the 'standard' meds to have on hand:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/

fp


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## Pidgey

feralpigeon said:


> Once here, perhaps you could bring your pet to the vet that Rene posted the name for who is close by and have a check up w/her.


Kajupahki's situation is a little bit different than most. She currently lives and works here in The States (last I heard) and visits home from time to time. All of her birds stay with the family back in India so this event is more worrisome than normal since she may only have this shot to get the bird treated and the family trained to deal with the condition.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> Kajupahki's situation is a little bit different than most. She currently lives and works here in The States (last I heard) and visits home from time to time. All of her birds stay with the family back in India so this event is more worrisome than normal since she may only have this shot to get the bird treated and the family trained to deal with the condition.
> 
> Pidgey


Hopefully an appointment with the vet Rene listed will get the bird 'on track' and
family on track w/health issues. Also, might be a good idea to take a look at
Treesa Grays 'Sticky' on Prevention and Nutrition:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=5760

fp


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

I am so greatful for all the help that I am getting from u guys.

Renee---Thanks a lot for those contacts...THEY ARE GOING TO BE VERY USEFULL...hopefully. I will get in touch with them today and let u guys know what happened. I do hope that I get canker meds there.

Pidgey--- Yep, where I live in India, its very hot and humid. I will try to get a hold of the fungus med that u mentioned soon as well. I trained my family and our maid on the "cleanliness of the cage " concept and thought that they followed it well... but the recent detoration of my bird's health(HE REALLY USED TO BE VERY HEALTHY) is making me belive otherwise...I am angry at my mom(I know that my mom tries her best) and more at our maid for not doing her work well. I try to make sure that they get clean food and water...but its hard to make sure that it happens that way from the other side of the globe. Also thanks for explaining fp about my situation. I wish that the docs could take sample of the depositions and test it under microscope, but the vetenary doctors chambers here are not that well equipped

Fp--- Yeah, Pidgey is right. I work in USA and visit India once/twice a year for some days. I am leaving for USA on 12th Jan and I only have very limitted time to find and buy canker medicines from USA, then get them shipped to India, train my family on the canker treatment and complete their treatment...I JUST HOPE IT ALL WORKS WELL AND I AM ABLE TO SAVE KAJU BEFORE I LEAVE FOR USA. Else I will be completely heartbroken in USA...its really stressful due to the limitted time I have to save Kaju's life,and lack of proper meds. I wish I did not have to go back to work so soon!!!IT WILL BE REALLY HARD AND PAINFUL
I will have a look at Treesa's stickey.
Also I was wondering if you could provide me with more informations of the online shops for meds that u mentioned before:
---"There are Pigeon Supply Houses here that you can order meds through and they can, depending on your shipping choice arrive within a day or two....
They are listed in a link here in the Resource Section ."
---I was not able to find it...it would be helpful if those folks mentioned by Renee cannot help.

Once again thanks a lot to everyone who is helping...I really appreciate it.

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

also I was wondering if the customs will prevent me from getting the meds from US to India...any idea????


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## Pidgey

Well, you might want to call customs in India and find out. I've talked to Cynthia before about sending her things like that in the UK and it's a bad idea. No idea what it would be like going to India.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi Pidgey,

Yeah, I will probably have to call customs in India to figure that out.


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## Victor

Kajupakhi~That was so nice of you to remember my ordeal with Tooter and thank you for the kind, thoughtful words. But let's get back to your problem.

If you go to the main page, scroll down to "Pigeon Daily" then click on *Resources* you will be able to find pigeon supply houses and click on the one you wish to seek information from. 

As Pidgey said, you should call customs in India and see what their policy is for accepting bird medications,as every country is different. The local US office _might _have someone who is keen on their laws and acceptance of certain drugs.Give them a call.


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## kajupakhi

Hi Victor, 

Thanks a lot for trying to help me. well I did see the Resource page, but I see all kinds of links there dealing with all sorts of pigeon related topics, but I could not find any links on online med shops...can u please be more specific?

yep!! I will call up the customs tomorrow to enquire about the permissions...so u mean that the US embassy here would be a good place for that sort of information?

Thanks again
Kajupakhi


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## Victor

kajupakhi said:


> yep!! I will call up the customs tomorrow to enquire about the permissions...so u mean that the US embassy here would be a good place for that sort of information?
> 
> Thanks again
> Kajupakhi


It would not hurt to contact the US Embassy there. They could either answer your question or direct you to the appropriate agency.


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## Victor

kajupakhi said:


> Thanks a lot for trying to help me. well I did see the Resource page, but I see all kinds of links there dealing with all sorts of pigeon related topics, but I could not find any links on online med shops...can u please be more specific?


I will use Foy's Supply as an _example_. Open up the link, and type in Canker on the search window, and just click on it. You can type in any medication that Pidgey and fp have discussed with you. Give it a try.


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## Pidgey

JEDD's:

http://www.jedds.com/

Global:

http://www.globalpigeon.com/

Foy's:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Northeast Pigeon Supply:

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/

Siegel's:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,
Victor, Pidgey...U guys are great...those links and infos are going to be very helpful. Thanks a LOT!!!

Also my partner contacted the two numbers given by Renee.
Well Dr Rose no longer works in that hospital and so is unavailable
and Todd Luongo is unable to prescribe meds coz he is not a doctor...However the good news is that he gave another number to contact (that's where he goes as a rehabber), he said that they may even be ready to prescribe over phone...even if it can get expensive...but that's ok as long as it saves Kaju's life...I will also contact the US embassy and Indian customs tomorrow morning and keep u guys informed about the proceedings...I am also thinking of taking Kaju to an animal hospital tomorrow to see if they can get any test done.

Its 11:00pm at night here...I need to log off the computer...will keep u guys informed.

Thanks a lot for everything

KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

A lot of the time in many countries, it's not difficult to acquire drugs even without prescriptions. One of the hardest things to do sometimes is translate the names so that you can actually identify the drugs on the shelf. It's easy to buy many drugs in Mexico (for instance) with no prescription as long as you can get them to understand what it is you want and then get the formulation that you're specifically looking for. It's entirely possible that you might be able to just walk into your local pharmacy and get Flagyl and Nystatin in forms that you can use but that may be a research project unto itself.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi Guys,

well I have 2 good news .

1. Todd (One of the names suggested by Renee...REENE THANKYOU SO MUCH!!!!!) gave the name of a doctor and a treatment center where they provide meds based on telephonic consultation. My partner arranged an appointment with the specific doctor that Todd suggested to be the best!!!
I am pasting part of my partner's email so u guys can read...let me know if anyone knows about this medical center and the doctor--

"
Stahl Exotic Veterinary Services
Their Phone Number: 703-281-3750

They had earlier appointments only with Junior doctors so I insisted that they give the senior doctor, he was available only for 3pm (US time, 1.30 am India time). So, better get some sleep earlier. 

Call them and tell your name and tell them you have an appointment with Dr. Stahl and also remind them you are calling from India so they get the Dr quickly.

Name of Doctor: Scott J. Stahl DVM, DABVP - Avian
(In short Dr. Stahl)

Their website is http://www.seavs.com/ (Stahl Exotic Veterinary Services)

I have already given a credit card number, so whatever charges, will be billed to me.

They can provide the medication and they said they usually don't have problems shipping overseas and actually recently they shipped medication for a bunny in India. So, I will collect the medication and ship it out on Monday.

Keep all the details handy, his age, what all problems Kaju is having, how inside of his mouth looks, color, texture, has he lost weight, how he is behaving, how is he eating, anything unusual, how many doctors he has visited, what medication he is taking currently etc etc, keep all info ready because its $32.50 for 10 minutes, pretty expensive.

"


Well everything sounds perfect...don't they!!!! specially the fact that they do not have problem with the shipping of meds!!! well my partner is the nicest and the most caring person on earth I know and he did a very good job making all the arrangements,(for which I am greatful to him!!!)...but he is completely ignorant of any thing that has to do with birds and bird related diseases/meds, so he is really not a good person to venture and find things out if there is very little time in hand...*THEREFORE I COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS WITHOUT ALL THE HELP THAT I AM GETTING FROM ALL YOU WONDERFUL PEOPLE THERE!!!!THANK YOU!!! *

2. The second good news is that this morning I saw that Kaju was able to eat on his own again  He is still not able to hold all the seeds all the time and often some of the seeds are getting stuck in the middle of his tongue...but its much better now, it is taking time but he is eating well enough to fill himself up. I don't know, may be its coz of the fungus med that I gave him yesterday or coz the pain caused in his throat due to scrapping by the first doctor has healed, but atleast he is starting to eat again!!!
I desperately hope that its a simple fungal infection which is easily curable and not canker or the bad fungal infection that fp was talking about.

Anyway, I have decided that canker or no canker, they are all getting treated for it while I am here. its 9:00 am in the morning here and I have a lot of running around to do for Kaju...take him to animal hospital to see if they can get any tests done. The animal hospitals here are pretty messy and dirty and there are more chances of a bird getting some disease just by being there for a while, so I avoided taking him to hospitals till now. But yesterday I got information about a very expensive and clean hospital. I am taking him there.Hope its nice. Then I will go to the US embassy and Indian customs office to know about the permissions(cannot trust the phones to be picked up,so I will go personally). I will also try to get his picture taken today so u guys can have a look.

Somehow I am feeling a little relived today morning ... I was not able to eat/sleep well for the past 2 days. Hope Kaju gets well soon and I can enjoy my homecoming!!!

I will get back to u guys tonight(tomorrow morning US time) again.

Thanks a lot

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

Just out of curiosity, was the stuff that got scraped out on the tip end of the tongue near the tip of the beak or was it kinda' back in the throat and disappearing down the gullet?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey--"Just out of curiosity, was the stuff that got scraped out on the tip end of the tongue near the tip of the beak or was it kinda' back in the throat and disappearing down the gullet?"


well it was at the end of the tongue near the tip of the beak and not back in the throat and disappearing down the gullet...but u never know what is going on down the throat that is not visible to us!!


----------



## Pidgey

Just a question. I haven't read much about fungal infections and I guess I was always thinking that thrush would tend to happen kinda' back in the throat rather than more foward like that. If anyone's seen that before, now's the time to speak up. I'll do a little digging around in the books but that doesn't sound like the kind of detail that I'm going to find.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> also I was wondering if the customs will prevent me from getting the meds from US to India...any idea????


Well, if they will ship, then what about the time frame? Seems it takes forever
anytime anything has come from India that I've ordered....

I think that you might also check w/Jedd's and see if they have any history of shipping to India. If I called customs on some of the online meds I've purchased
from Mexico and New Zealand, I'm sure that I wouldn't have placed the order.
If the site is reputable and they say they can ship their meds there, most likely
they can.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> Northeast Pigeon Supply:
> 
> http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/
> 
> Siegel's:
> 
> http://www.siegelpigeons.com/
> 
> Pidgey


That's actually New England Pigeon Supply. What I generally do is think about
what I want to order and see which supply house I can get the most of the 
items from so I'm not hit right and left w/shipping charges. Sometimes this is 
just impossible though, but I sure do try.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

Pidgey, the rescue I spoke of had a covering that extended from the tip of the 
beak towards the back of the mandibles. Thrush in humans also can carpet the tongue and have different colorations.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

If this is possibly something like thrush could Kajupakhi give him plain yogurt? I know doctors recommend this for humans who have thrush after antibiotic treatments. It certainly wouldn't hurt him.


----------



## Pidgey

You do have to wonder a bit if it's systemic or just local. I was beginning to think yesterday that probiotics would help and yogurt's probably a more... trustable means of getting it there. If it's a localized patch on the inner tip end of the beak, though, you really would tend to just scrape it out when necessary and get on down the road. That's odder'n about anything I ever heard of.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

feralpigeon said:


> That's actually New England Pigeon Supply.


Yeah, I was typing pretty fast at that point because it was looking like Kajupakhi was going to be signing off soon (something like that) and so I wanted to get the links on as fast as I could. I knew there was something wrong but I couldn't put my finger on it. I did check the link however as soon as I posted it.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

Well, not that many new developments since my last post.
The animal hospital said that I need to come tomorrow to see the Avian doc and the US embassy is closed for the holiday season and the person that I needed to talk at Indian customs was on leave today...so not much progress there...however I did get Kaju's mouth pic taken, they should be ready by this time tomorrow so u guys can have a look. Also about 4 hrs from now Kaju has the doc's appointment(Dr Stahl, USA)...looking forward to that.

Apart from that, Kaju was once again not able to eat anything all afternoon.
Then in late afternoon/early evening I gave him the 2nd dose of the fungus med, an hour after that he was eating better...I wonder why he can eat(littlt bit) after the med is given but soon after that he is unable to eat again???any idea?Also how can I be sure if his crop is full or he needs me to feed him? He looked very proud when he ate this evening...he wanted us to see what a good job he was doing...as if he was giving us some performance he is the cutest!!!

However, I would not say that he is eating well, he is only eating the same way he was eating before the beak scrapping by the first doc...his eating ability is hardly normal/healty...something
is really wrong there... I noticed swelling in his mandibles and he is molting around his left eye...I noticed something similar in a pic of a bird with canker...moreover, the area where the depositions were now has a cavity-type look which has yellowish color,wonder if its canker puss...anyway once I get the pics u guys can see it.
Moreover, though he does not drool and his eyes became watery so far only thrice since I came, and his poop seems fine, but he does make CONSTANT SWALLOWING MOVEMENTS WHEN HE SLEEPS...its not exactly like swallowing down the throat type movement, but more like sticking his tongue out to get seeds in his dreams, or maybe rubbing the tip of his lower beak where the thrush is(due to itching in that area may be)...something about this movement is very abnormal and I noticed it the last time I was here as well...does canker grow gradually over a year???

Fp--well if the meds are available with the doc, then my partner will go to him and get it and send them over to me as quickly as possible...else I will have to order online...either ways it will take about thursday/fri to reach here.

Maggie---well the second doc said that its oral thrush and recommended to feed him "chatu", its ground gram available locally...however if he can digest then I can also feed him seeds...I feed him both...but yogurt sounds good...yogurts here are not the same as in US, but have probiotics anyway...but he will be able to digest it right?


I have to make notes for the doc now...will let u guys know what happens...

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

Plain yogurt--not the fruit kind.

I know that they can get the kinds of swelling and feather loss problems that you're describing with canker. I don't know if the same would apply to fungal infections. What that says is that there's inflammation underneath and it's a bad sign. You really ought to try acquiring a Nitroimidazole medication over there (or any anti-canker if possible). I just know in my heart that there's something in that family in your local drugstore.

Canker doesn't typically work like that (slowly) by the way.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi Pidgey,

"try acquiring a Nitroimidazole medication over there (or any anti-canker if possible). "--- do u mean that while I am wating to get the canker meds from USA, I should try to get whatever is availabe locally till the US meds come???
please let me know...
well tomorrow I will go to the animal hospital and try to find out what canker meds I can get here?

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

That's exactly what I mean. The Nitroimidazole family includes a bunch of them: Metronidazole (Flagyl), Dimetridazole (Emtry), Carnidazole (Spartrix), Ronidazole, Secnidazole... there's more but you get the point. Often, some of them are given to women for protozoal infections and that's why I know that they're available there.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Thanks a lot Pidgey for your suggestion...sounds like the best thing to do at the time...Tomorrow I will talk to the doc and get some of them.


----------



## Pidgey

Of course, given your other description of the spreading inflammation, if it's some more insidious fungal infection then you'd need a systemic antifungal and now we'd be in an entirely different ballgame. Better discuss that with the folks you're going to have a tele-conference with.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

thanks for pointing that out...I will discuss it


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kajupakhi,

I'm sorry to read about your pigeon being ill but by the time I got to your thread, several experienced members were already on the scene and giving you great advice/suggestions. 

Just wanted you to know that I did view your thread and the situation. I know you're deeply concerned so I'm hoping that you will get this sorted out and have your pigeon fixed up soon

By the way, no...I haven't heard from Mary


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

Well I did have a looooong phone conversation with Dr Stahl...it was really nice...he says that there is a possibility that he has both fungus and canker at the same time. So he said that I need to treat him for both at the same time. He said that I can continue with the med Candid-I for fungus along with the meds for canker that he can provide...He also said that till the US meds come here, I should try whatever is available locally(just like Pidgey)...
BUT THE BEST NEWS IS THAT TODAY MORNING I FOUND 
Metronidazole Tablets I.P. 400mg. Flagyl-400 in a local drug store...seems its commonly available here  
I have already emailed the doc about my findings and am waiting for his email about the dosage...meanwhile can anyone tell me how much of it should I give to each one of my 3 birds...I can understand better about it in terms of what fraction(eg: 1/10th, 1/4th etc) of each pill will each bird need and how many times a day??? I will ofcourse ground the pills and make powder, if that works...Please let me know??
Also I will show Kaju's mouth's pics that I took yesterday to the doc as well...I am waiting for it to be ready by tonight...My partner will get the meds tomorrow from the doc and ship them on tuesday, but I don't think that I will need to buy anything from US that is available locally.THANK GOD THAT I FOUND Metronidazole in India  

*an imp question: * now that Kaju is eating a little bit, its hard for me to understand if he has eaten enough or do I still need to feed him...I don't know for sure, but seems like he has gained a little weight since he started eating yesterday...his poops seem fine and he is still very active and energetic...I don't want to over feed him and then upset his stomach, neither do I want Kaju to become weak by not being able to feed himself enough??
Bottomline: HOW DO I KNOW IF HE NEEDS HELP WITH FEEDING OR NOT??HOW DO U UNDERSTAND IF HIS CROP IS FULL OR NOT???

Please let me know??

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

The standard dose is 10 - 30 milligrams per kilogram of bird, two times per day or 20 - 50 milligrams per kilogram of bird, one time per day. 50 milligrams is 1/8th of the pill but how much does the bird weigh? If you can cut the pill into 1/8ths, then you can cut one of those pieces in whatever fraction is required (probably about 1/3rd of a 1/8th piece). Just throw it down his gullet.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Well, yes, the rescue I had did in fact have canker and thrush concurrently. If
your pij is eating somewhat on his own, you don't want to overfill him especially
w/the medical issues. I would feel the crop area in the front of his chest. You
should be actually able to feel the seeds in his crop. Here's a diagram:

http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html

You don't want it to be loaded while possibly having concurrent thrush and canker, better plump w/room to spare.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Kajupakhi,
> 
> I'm sorry to read about your pigeon being ill but by the time I got to your thread, several experienced members were already on the scene and giving you great advice/suggestions.
> 
> Just wanted you to know that I did view your thread and the situation. I know you're deeply concerned so I'm hoping that you will get this sorted out and have your pigeon fixed up soon
> 
> By the way, no...I haven't heard from Mary






Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Kajupakhi,
> 
> I'm sorry to read about your pigeon being ill but by the time I got to your thread, several experienced members were already on the scene and giving you great advice/suggestions.
> 
> Just wanted you to know that I did view your thread and the situation. I know you're deeply concerned so I'm hoping that you will get this sorted out and have your pigeon fixed up soon
> 
> By the way, no...I haven't heard from Mary



Hi Brad,

So nice to hear from you again and thanks a lot for your kind words...Please pray that he gets well before I leave, otherwise I don't know how I can live a normal life in US...Kaju is more than a dear pet pigeon to me, he is my baby and I cannot even begin to describe the emptyness I will feel if I ever loose him for ever...even though Kaju and me live in completely different countries, but the fact that he is alife and an important part of my life means a lot to me.

YEAH I am getting great advices from a lot of nice and REALLY EXPERIENCED people!!! I really love this community

well, u got me right!! whenever I hear from you, it reminds me of Mary as well It would be nice to hear from her,she did a lot for Kaju in the past...hope she is happy and enjoying her work there!!! I see her online sometimes but she does not post anything!!!

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> The standard dose is 10 - 30 milligrams per kilogram of bird, two times per day or 20 - 50 milligrams per kilogram of bird, one time per day. 50 milligrams is one eighth of the pill but how much does the bird weigh? If you can cut the pill into eighths, then you can cut one of those pieces in whatever fraction is required (probably about one third of a one eighth piece). Just throw it down his gullet.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,


Thanks a lot for your reply...so will it work if I ground 3 pills individually(one for each bird...its easier to keep track that way) into powder and then divide each of these 3 powdered meds into 8 sections, and then put each section down the bird's throat one times each day...will that work??

I am not good with weights but Kaju is small to medium sized if u compare with ferals in India and he is small sized if u compare with ferals in USA...I will figure out his weight and let u know

Also will I also treat the other 2 birds of fungus as well?or will that be harmful?


Kajupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

I don't know what that anti-fungal that you're using is.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Well, yes, the rescue I had did in fact have canker and thrush concurrently. If
> your pij is eating somewhat on his own, you don't want to overfill him especially
> w/the medical issues. I would feel the crop area in the front of his chest. You
> should be actually able to feel the seeds in his crop. Here's a diagram:
> 
> http://www.duckpolice.org/BirdWeb/PigeonResourceWeb/TubeFeedWeb/handfeedpigeon3.html
> 
> You don't want it to be loaded while possibly having concurrent thrush and canker, better plump w/room to spare.
> 
> fp



Hi Fp,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

So u mean to say that unless I can feel the seeds on touching the skin of this crop, I should make sure that he keeps eating or being fed???

*PLEASE LET ME KNOW*
Thanks 

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I don't know what that anti-fungal that you're using is.
> 
> Pidgey


the anti fungal is: 

candid oral 
clotrimazole
15 ml
glenmark pharmaceutical ltd


along with that I am giving an antibiotic:

Doxt-100


KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Yeah, I was typing pretty fast at that point because it was looking like Kajupakhi was going to be signing off soon (something like that) and so I wanted to get the links on as fast as I could. I knew there was something wrong but I couldn't put my finger on it. I did check the link however as soon as I posted it.
> 
> Pidgey




Thanks a lot Pidgey...that was really sweet  ...really appreciate your concern.

Also Thanks Fp for pointing that out!!


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Hi Fp,
> 
> Thanks a lot for your reply.
> 
> So u mean to say that unless I can feel the seeds on touching the skin of this crop, I should make sure that he keeps eating or being fed???
> 
> *PLEASE LET ME KNOW*
> Thanks
> 
> KAjupakhi


There's a bit of a 'sack' there for want of a better term. If you touch it (more like massage it to be able to feel whats inside), let's say mid to late morning and it feels empty, I'd give the bird a little help. You'll have to follow
a bit of your intuition on this, because if the bird hasn't been eating much,
you don't want to give it a 'full course' meal coming off of a 'fast'....so think of it as augmenting and getting the bird to want to eat itself again as opposed to doing the whole nine yards for it. The bird will normally get very
fidgety when enough is enough.

fp


----------



## Victor

Hi again KAjupakhi, I have been checking on this thread many times a day and admire your determination to correct your pigeon problems. They are so lucky to have you on their side. I am grateful for our knowledgeable members such as Pidgey and fp to be here for critical issues. Keep focused and all will end well.


----------



## Pidgey

The clotrimazole is a topical antifungal--never used it but it's a rub on the spot kinda' thing. The Doxt 100 might actually be a Doxycycline which is in the Tetracycline family. It's easier to get a yeast or fungal infection when you're taking an antibiotic like that IF that's what it is. 

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> Hi Pidgey,
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for your reply...so will it work if I ground 3 pills individually(one for each bird...its easier to keep track that way) into powder and then divide each of these 3 powdered meds into 8 sections, and then put each section down the bird's throat one times each day...will that work??


Not quite. You'd do like you're thinking except you'd need to divide each pill's worth into about 24 equal piles. You see, a 1/8th pile will be 50 milligrams but that's the dose for a 1,000 gram bird. It's more likely that Kaju is a 300 gram bird so about 1/3rd of 1/8th of a pill and that's a 1/24th.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

I'm up kinda' late and need to get to sleep now, so night!

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Got the pictures from Kajupakhi:



The swelling under the chin does look like edema from canker (at least I've seen some birds that had that presentation and responded to anti-canker meds) but that funny little periocular edema doesn't make me think of canker. However, it's pretty easy to get several things at once.

Pidgey


----------



## Victor

Pidgey, I re-read the thread and all does seem to lead to Canker. I recall post number 7 that Kajupakhi posted indicated all the symptoms Kaju had leading up to Canker. Since the weather is mostly a hot one in India, that could be the reason the area below the beak shows the swelling.


----------



## Pidgey

Victor, 

There have been several birds on here that we've gotten pictures on where there is significant swelling underneath the chin like that. We have believed it to be canker in virtually every case. The fact is that you're never really 100% sure although you can get pretty doggone close sometimes. In the vet and medical books, the typical phrase is "the patient responded to therapy" which has an awful lot of buried meaning along the lines of "for whatever reason but hopefully the medicine, the patient got better".

Anyhow, without the benefit of any real lab, that'd tend to be my guess. I'd also think that Kaju and Kajupakhi's other birds have had the organism for a long time but that Kaju has come down with it (whatever it is) more for geriatric reasons. And that could be accelerated due to the presence of such organisms on a continual basis.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

The link below will take u to my photo album so you can cee kaju's beak.
Well I have taken pics from different angles so u guys can see different parts of his mouth.

1) pic 1 shows Beak gap from right side of face and bulging mandibles.

2) pic 2 shows Beak gap from left side of face,bulging mandibles,molting eye corner.

*3) pic 7 and pic 5 are the main trouble spots that are visible to us. They both show lower beak with thrush...

please note the yellowish layer of skin where the tip of the tongue ends, that's where the deposition was before it got scrapped out by the first doc.
Those pictures were taken 2 days back and at that time the texture of the yellowish spot in the lower beak where the thrush is located was like a semi-hard skin.
Well yesterday I noticed that it became more soft-membrane like in texture and has sort of started coming off his beak. Do you think that its because of the anti-fungal medicine Candid oral, that I am putting in that area? is it part of the cure process that the skin of the affected area comes out of the mouth or is it something bad?Also I notice that there is more saliva inside his mouth now and its sort of sticky and not slippery in texture? please let me know as I am a bit worried about it. I have also started giving him the canker med. Hope everything works out well.

Also note that from where the front end of the yellowish layer ends till the tip of his beak looks very cornish, cracked up and dry...its the cracked-up greyish area after the yellow part ends...not normal I guess

Finally note what his upper beak looks from outside..very cracked up just below the nose...why????*


4) Pic 3 and pic 6 shows Upper beak from inside. It seems fine to me.

5) pic 9 shows upper and lower beak.

6) pic 4 shows upper beak, lower beak and side of throat

7) pic 8 shows inside of throat.

please let me know what u guys think after u have had a look at the pics. The link is:
http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/photosmd123/album?.dir=47a8scd&.src=ph


Also for those who were worried about Kaju(I know that a lot of u were),
I am sorry for getting back to u guys a bit late...its just that yesterday I took him to the animal hospital that I was talking about previously to see if I could get some tests done on him to know for sure what's going on with his throat . It was a looooooong drive and I was really tired by the time I got back. 
Well it was all in vain coz I could not get any tests done. There too the doc denied the possibility of canker, and denied to run any test on him...infact
he snapped at me when I insisted on getting the test done...he said that I was overreacting and that the bulging of the mandibles and canker stuffs are all my imagination...BUT I DO FEEL THAT THE SKIN BELOW HIS LOWER BEAK IS BULGING, I CAN SEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES   
Well he thinks that its neither canker nor fungus, but a regular wound/injury/sores which will be cured by rubbing a cream called:
Dipgenta Cream.
THIS IS COMPLETE MADNESS WITH DIFF DOCS SAYING DIFF THINGS AND NO TESTS BEING DONE TO VERIFY ANYTHING 
Well this is a developing country simply excellent medical facilities for humans(we hardly need to look outside our country for treatments for human diseases),
but it will take many, many , MANY more years of development to have equal medical facilities to develop for our feathered friends...can be really frustrating for birdlovers.


Meanwhile after looking at these pic of Kaju's beak, Dr Stahl (from USA) said:

"it appears the changes in the beak and thickening may be from deep thrush...one other concern would be if there was secondary bacteria invading the deeper keratin layers of the beak or even bone"

Honestly I am getting scared...what if all his problems can get solved before I leave.


I DESPERATELY HOPE THAT WHATEVER IT IS THAT IS CAUSING TROUBLE TO KAJU GETS SOLVED BEFORE I LEAVE.

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> There's a bit of a 'sack' there for want of a better term. If you touch it (more like massage it to be able to feel whats inside), let's say mid to late morning and it feels empty, I'd give the bird a little help. You'll have to follow
> a bit of your intuition on this, because if the bird hasn't been eating much,
> you don't want to give it a 'full course' meal coming off of a 'fast'....so think of it as augmenting and getting the bird to want to eat itself again as opposed to doing the whole nine yards for it. The bird will normally get very
> fidgety when enough is enough.
> 
> fp


Thanks a lot fp for the explanation...it will be very helpful!!!


----------



## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> Hi again KAjupakhi, I have been checking on this thread many times a day and admire your determination to correct your pigeon problems. They are so lucky to have you on their side. I am grateful for our knowledgeable members such as Pidgey and fp to be here for critical issues. Keep focused and all will end well.


Hi Victor,

Thanks a lot for your encouraging words...well I feel lucky and am thankful to have come to know a cute little bird like kaju (and the rest of them)...they got me introduced to this wonderful world of pigeons and how loving and affectionate they can get if they are kept indoors as pets. My birds, specially Kaju is VERY TAME, and affectionate...he will sit on my lap/chest for ever,sleep with me(if allowed) and not a single day goes by when he does not do anything funny/comical to make us laugh. He brought out sides in me that I never even knew existed.

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> The clotrimazole is a topical antifungal--never used it but it's a rub on the spot kinda' thing. The Doxt 100 might actually be a Doxycycline which is in the Tetracycline family. It's easier to get a yeast or fungal infection when you're taking an antibiotic like that IF that's what it is.
> 
> Pidgey


*SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT ITS BETTER NOT TO GIVE THE ANTIBIOTIC???*

Please let me know


----------



## Victor

KAjupakhi~ I have been viewing your pictures you presented.Good job on getting them to this site. I have never dealt with a pigeon yet and hopefully never will, with thrush or canker, though I have treated all of mine as a preventative measure when I first adopted them. When Tooter came back after his 7 month vacation, I treated him for canker and he was isolated for two weeks and had several salt baths.It is disappointing you had a bad experience with the animal doctor. 

Your Kaju reminds me of Tooter and me. Your closeness to this pigeon is genuine I can tell. My Tooter is the one who made me aware of how special a pigeon is.I love my other five and they all have their unique personalities and traits but Tooter is somewhat special to me as your Kaju is to you and I will be glad when this situation is resolved.

Pidgey and fp will be on soon and will be able to determine more of the pictures. It is good that you have started the Canker meds. I believe the beak droppings is a good sign as you have been putting the topical medication on, but as I said, lets us see what the pros have to say.


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Kajupakhi

If it were me I would hold off on the antibiotic right now and continue with the clotrimazol and Metronidazole. The reason I would hold off on the antibiotic is that it can sometimes accelerate a thrush. Frankly, his mouth looked pretty good to me except for the tip end and hopefully much of it is coming off. I can see the swelling you're talking about and the beak separation. The beak may realign itself after the canker is totally gone. 

When do you return to the US? Do you think after you return you can send your family various medications they can use in case he gets sick again?


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kajupakhi, 

I'm sorry you're still so worried about Kaju I looked at the pictures and it doesn't look too bad to me either... at this time. I see the area you are talking about under the bottom mandible that appears swollen a bit. 

I agree with Maggie and that you should probably hold off on the antibiotics for now because of the concern of thrush/fungus. Continue with the anti fungal med and the metro and hopefully there will be more and continued improvement. 

I know how worrying this is for you, I really do, but try not to panic so much. Sometimes our own over reactions cause us to not think clearly. You did say yourself that Kaju is acting normally and is energetic so this is a very good sign I don't think the small cracks in the beak are anything to worry about, it's likely just the sloughing off of dead cells that takes place on this living tissue.

Do you have any other birds in your home in India...members of the parrot family? There is a disease called psittacine beak and feather disease (PBFD) that can have some of the symptoms in regards to the beak with Kaju but not very many other symptoms of this disease are present in Kaju. It's a fungus that primarily affects the feathers and beaks of birds but since you're using an anti-fungal at this time, that would likely take care of this worry anyway. The disease in parrots seems to be much more life threatening and I'm not exactly sure how it would affect pigeons.

Another couple of suggestions for you are to get a gram scale to weigh Kaju daily. These are cheap, at least here in the west and you can get ones designed for the kitchen to weigh produce. You could have your mom keep track of Kaju's weight once you're back in the USA. Also, is there anyway you could pick up some baby bird formula there and if needed to supplement him if he continues to lose weight...your mom or maid could do this as well. Other than that, perhaps by providing his seed in a deep dish will help him pick up the seeds easier but just plunging his beak in and grabbing what he can to eat.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know. Try not to worry yourself sick and I'm hoping very much that Kaju will be ok


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi Guys,
well its already 25thDec here so...

*MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE AND HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!*

I am soooo glad to know that u guys think that the beak does not look too bad and I have not started giving the antibiotics...Thanks to Pidgey's post, I wanted to wait till I heard from him or you guys.
Meanwhile today morning as soon as I applied the fungus med to his beak...*the yellowish area started bleeding quite a bit and the mouth became full of saliva*...however after about an hour from that, the beak seemed dry and appeared to be healing(hope so)...do u think that the bleeding is part of healing too?

Please let me know...

Brad-- good to know that the beak cracks are normal...and I do not have any parrots in my house. Yeah...I need to relax a bit and see how it heals before I end up having an heart attack in my effort to save him  .
He is very active physically, infact over the past 3 to 4 days he has become hyperactive...specially when I let him out to free fly inside the house.
Its an excellent idea to get a gram scale to weigh them regularly. I will make sure I get one before I leave. My mom cares a lot about them but sometimes certain important things escape her eyes. For example, she would often see kaju pecking at the seeds and think that he is eating normally...it never occured to her that most of those seeds were not going down his mouth in reality. A daily weight check will be very helpful. 
I have already ordered for the baby bird formula from Dr Stahl of USA. They will all be shipped out on tuesday from USA and his seed cups are kind of deep...they are from USA...the little colorful plastic ones that u get for $1.99 form petsmart, petco ect. Is that ok?

Maggie --- I have not yet started giving the antiboitics and will hold it for sometimes then!!! and hope the beak closes completely after the treatment. As far as the meds from USA are concerned, my partner already got the meds from Dr Stahl and will ship them out tomorrow. And surely when I come back to USA I will get and ship all other meds as and when needed by Kaju or any of my other darlings . I have done that a couple of times before and sometimes it manages to come through to India and sometimes customs prevents it from coming. Hope this time all the meds reach here safely.

Victor--- Yeah...I know what u mean...when Tooter was gone and I would read his thread and the way u would wait by the zoo for days to find him just because u thought you saw him there, made me feel that your love for Tooter is the same as I feel towards Kaju...for I would have done the same for Kaju as well. I am really happy that he is back in your life again.

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

I was wondering if it would be too much for their little bodies to handle if before I leave, I give my birds PMV and Pox vaccination????????? please let me know what you think. I just found out from one of the docs that he can give them those vaccination which is rare in India and it would be really good if I can make sure that they are free from all sorts of dangerous diseases before I leave. Specially since PMV is becoming very common here.
However if getting treated for canker, fungus, pox and and PMV within a time period of 15 days is too much for them then I will hold it for a while and then my family can get them the vaccinations for PMV and Pox later. But it would be safer if I was personally present during the process so that I can rectify any problems...

*PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT U GUYS THINK SO I CAN TAKE UP THE RIGHT DECISION???*

KAjupakhi


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## Reti

i am not sure you can give the vaccines together, my guess would be yes, my vet did it. He gave Angel and Tiny the pox and PMV at the same time. If you have to chose which one definately give the PMV and the pox at a later time.

Reti


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## Lovebirds

You can give these two vaccines at the same time BUT........I personally would hold off on the Pox until he had a clean bill of health. PMV doesn't affect them at all but the Pox will make them a little sluggish and not feeling so good and I don't think this bird needs that on top of what ever else is going on. JMO.


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## Reti

Lovebirds said:


> You can give these two vaccines at the same time BUT........I personally would hold off on the Pox until he had a clean bill of health. PMV doesn't affect them at all but the Pox will make them a little sluggish and not feeling so good and I don't think this bird needs that on top of what ever else is going on. JMO.



You're right Renee. I forgot about it. The pox is a live vaccine and has to be given to a healthy bird.

Reti


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## feralpigeon

Hi KAjupakhi,

I looked at the pictures you posted of kaju, you did a great job of isolating the areas of the mouth that you have concerns about. I did want to ask if the color of the inside roof of the mouth is normal for kaju?

Kinda hard to be juggling the info your getting in absence of lab work, but it does seem as though you have two doctors now that are saying this is fungal. Dr. Stahl you quote here:

Meanwhile after looking at these pic of Kaju's beak, Dr Stahl (from USA) said:

"it appears the changes in the beak and thickening may be from deep thrush...one other concern would be if there was secondary bacteria invading the deeper keratin layers of the beak or even bone"

If Dr. Stahl believes this may be from 'deep thrush', has he prescribed a systemic fungal medication, maybe I missed this?

I would also continue treating for canker, I can pick up rescues any time of the year with the problem, even if it's not supposed to be in season, so this would be a good idea. I think either a canker lesion or growth from thrush that is not ready to slough off on its' own yet could cause bleeding when dislodged prematurely. The saliva response does make me curious. 

Is the fungal medication a topical or meant to be taken internally? Here's a link on Dipgenta Cream:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...a+cream+topical&d=N4g-pUVuN3Bv&icp=1&.intl=us

It looks to be a topical cream not intended for oral use.

You could try trickling or taking a Q-tip w/the canker medication and applying to the area that is yellowish. Just let the medications do their thing, hopefully it will resolve on its' own.

Too bad you couldn't get an In-Pouch sample to carry back on the plane w/you but there probably isn't enough time to get a kit. Here's a link on this:

http://www.californiaavianlaboratory.com/

Anyway, maybe you can get your family to check the insides of the birds mouths more routinely, and perhaps print out Treesa's sticky on Preventative approaches to good health for them to refer to when you are gone. Hopefully, Kaju will be well on the way to healing by the time you are on the plane.

fp


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

Updates on kaju--
I spoke to the doc from India who said that it was fungus and I told him that he is bleeding sometimes from that area. He said that it was not good and is probably due to scrapping by the other doc. He said that instead of giving candid oral twice daily, I need to give it only once a day and instead he gave a new med to give twice a day. Its Betadine germicide gargle.

Also sometimes, after the yellow skins are coming off, it seems like similar new skins are growing back thereby causing no improvement... I remember something similar happened soon after I came to India this time(i,e before I strated giving him the meds)

Reti, Reene ---thanks a lot for your suggestions. I will hold the pox vaccination for Kaju till he gets well and will go with the PMV for him. But my other 2 birds will get both of them done.

Fp--Thanks for taking time to look at the pics. Yes I think that the color of the roof of his mouth is normal.

I don't know for sure if Dr Stahl gave any systemic fungal medication. I will have to wait and see once the med package arrives here. But he told me to continue with Candid oral that was prescribed by the other doc.

No I am not giving him the dipgenta cream...I am giving him Candid oral.
Yeah, I will get my family to check Kaju's mouth and weight regularly and make them follow Tressa's sticky.
I am leaving for US on 12th of Jan,2007...I JUST HOPE THAT HE CAN ATLEAST EAT PROPERLY BEFORE I LEAVE...


KAjupakhi


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## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Updates on kaju--
> I spoke to the doc from India who said that it was fungus and I told him that he is bleeding sometimes from that area. He said that it was not good and is probably due to scrapping by the other doc. He said that instead of giving candid oral twice daily, I need to give it only once a day and instead he gave a new med to give twice a day. Its Betadine germicide gargle.
> 
> Also sometimes, after the yellow skins are coming off, it seems like similar new skins are growing back thereby causing no improvement... I remember something similar happened soon after I came to India this time(i,e before I strated giving him the meds)
> ........
> 
> I don't know for sure if Dr Stahl gave any systemic fungal medication. I will have to wait and see once the med package arrives here. But he told me to continue with Candid oral that was prescribed by the other doc.
> .........
> 
> KAjupakhi


So you're continuing w/the canker medication right now?? It's somewhat curious that the Candida oral was cut back to once a day, it's a 'contact' med that is usually dosed at a minimum of twice a day. 

fp


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## kajupakhi

Hi Fp,

Yeah I am continuing with the canker med and after the bleeding started, the doc cut down Candid oral to once a day...it was 2 drops twice daily before...

KAjupakhi


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## Lovebirds

kajupakhi said:


> Reti, Reene ---thanks a lot for your suggestions. I will hold the pox vaccination for Kaju till he gets well and will go with the PMV for him. But my other 2 birds will get both of them done.
> 
> KAjupakhi


One more word of caution and this isn't an opinion, but a fact.  I don't know what kind of set up you have, but if you pox your other birds, you must keep them a way from Kaju for a minimum of 30 days......otherwise he'll come down with a full blown case of Pox and that you DON'T want. Another thing while we're on the subject, once your birds are vaccinated with Pox, they should not be allowed to bath, as in a pan of water, as this will cause the Pox to spread into their eyes and mouth from the vaccination spot. It's ok to get a "rain" bath, but a communal bath is a no no for 30 days at least. Just a heads up.


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## Pidgey

I've gotten some emails from Kajupakhi during this deal and one thing that came up is that Kajupakhi is pretty sure that Kaju was exposed to some moldy food so that may make us lean more towards the fungal infection. 

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> I've gotten some emails from Kajupakhi during this deal and one thing that came up is that Kajupakhi is pretty sure that Kaju was exposed to some moldy food so that may make us lean more towards the fungal infection.
> 
> Pidgey


Well, even more so then, I'm not sure I understand the 'cut-back' to once a day w/the Candida med. Did he explain the reasoning for this?

fp


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## Pidgey

Not that I've gathered. I also asked Kajupakhi to ask the vet whether or not a systemic anti-fungal could be locally obtained. It might be one of those circumstances where the vet gets aggravated over being second-guessed.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

Updates on Kaju--

Well I am contnuing with the canker and fungus treatment.
Meanwhile the yellowish layer of skin is again coming off for the third time now, however the new skin that is growing underneath is again of the same texture and color...thereby it is continuing like a cycle instead of healing  .
The bulging of the mandibles is still present. However the beak appears to be a little closer together than before.(I hope its not my imagination).

I will take them to the doc for the PMV vaccines tomorrow and the doc said that he will have a second look at his mouth. I will also talk to him about the systemic antifungus as well at that time...

Meanwhile my partner emailed Dr Stahl about Systemic anti-fungal meds from US and here's what he said:

"Systemic fungal disease that would originate from the oral cavity or esophagus or crop is rare."

So I don't think that he is prescribing any such meds from US . He however said that he has the med described by Pidgey for preventing fungal growth in their feed. i.e nystatin. So I am getting that shipped here as well...could not get anything shipped today coz they were closed for the holiday season. So tomorrow hopefully they will be shipped out.
However Dr Stahl did not prescribe a lot of meds for him so far. Uptill now he just prescribed a canker med and some baby bird feed formula.

Kaju is unable to eat still and I have to feed him...otherwise he is very active, energitic and looks alert and involved in his surrounding.*Nothing in his behavior can make one feel that he is a sick bird!!!! * . He never sits in one corner all puffed up and listless as a sick bird would do. He does not drool, his poops are fine...He does not seem to have any pain in his beak...little itchy maybe bit no pain...he has enough strength in his beak to bite hard and does not hesitate to use it to bite; Although he is kept seperated from my other birds, but I KNOW THAT GIVEN A CHANCE HE WILL KEEP HIS BEAK BUSY BY FIGHTING WITH OTHER BIRDS WITH RAGE OR PREENING THE OTHER BIRDS WITH AFFECTION
His liveliness and energy is what keeps me going these days and stay positive...


...will keep u guys posted

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Lovebirds said:


> One more word of caution and this isn't an opinion, but a fact.  I don't know what kind of set up you have, but if you pox your other birds, you must keep them a way from Kaju for a minimum of 30 days......otherwise he'll come down with a full blown case of Pox and that you DON'T want. Another thing while we're on the subject, once your birds are vaccinated with Pox, they should not be allowed to bath, as in a pan of water, as this will cause the Pox to spread into their eyes and mouth from the vaccination spot. It's ok to get a "rain" bath, but a communal bath is a no no for 30 days at least. Just a heads up.


Hi Renee,

Thanks a lot for alerting me about those facts...After reading this post I don't think that Pox vaccination is a good idea right now...Already one of them is sick...having the other 2 sick as well is too much for my family to deal with while I am gone...so I am thinking of vaccinating them for pox the next time I am here.

Thanks again for the infos.
KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I've gotten some emails from Kajupakhi during this deal and one thing that came up is that Kajupakhi is pretty sure that Kaju was exposed to some moldy food so that may make us lean more towards the fungal infection.
> 
> Pidgey





Pidgey said:


> I've gotten some emails from Kajupakhi during this deal and one thing that came up is that Kajupakhi is pretty sure that Kaju was exposed to some moldy food so that may make us lean more towards the fungal infection.
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah, I did tell Pidgey about my findings of moldy food this time I came to India. However now that I think about it they were not exactly molds in the dictionary sence "a growth of minute fungi forming on vegetable or animal matter, commonly as a downy or furry coating, and associated with decay or dampness. "...but rather more like dusts and powder from seeds that are present at the bottom layer of the container containing the seeds...I did not see any fungus growth on them. Moreover my birdfeeds are kept outside in a covered plastic container, the main purpose for which so that the seed enough sunlight and does not get moist or dampy, so the chances of fungus growing on the seeds are rare...

However I have to admit that much to my dissapointment, the seeds were not really very clean, they were dusty and some were crumbled into powders, and I did spot some insects(not worms but the little black insects that we find in rice and that feeds on the seeds  )....The problem is that the bird feeds sold in Indian markets are themselves not really clean seeds...most of the times they have those insects even at the time we buy them...I have never really found clean bird seeds here ever.That's why this time I got for them kaytee's Pigeon feed from US...

But due to the regular exposure to sunlight , its unlikely that the seeds had fungus...rather they surely had small black insects feeding on the seeds.

This time I noticed that my maid was feeding them seeds from the bottom of the seed container and there were a lot of dusts and powdered seed particles  
I never want my birds to be fed on the seeds that remain at the bottom of the container, coz they are usually dusty and have had a serious talk with my maid so that this never happens again.

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Well, even more so then, I'm not sure I understand the 'cut-back' to once a day w/the Candida med. Did he explain the reasoning for this?
> 
> fp


Hi Fp,
well after I told the doc that he was bleeding from that area, he reduced the dosage of the fungal med from 2 drops twice daily to two drops once a day. Along with that he prescribed a new med--Betadine Germicide Gargle-- to be given twice daily. He said that this would also work in the same way and also check any infection caused due to bleeding...

KAjupakhi


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## Maggie-NC

kajupakhi said:


> Moreover my birdfeeds are kept outside in a covered plastic container, the main purpose for which so that the seed enough sunlight and does not get moist or dampy, so the chances of fungus growing on the seeds are rare...
> 
> 
> 
> KAjupakhi


Hi Kajupakhi

This set off some alarm bells for me. Seed that would be kept outside in a plastic container, to me, run a greater risk of getting a fungus/mold than seed kept in, say, a garage, or utility room where SUN DOES NOT HIT THEM. Seed do have some moisture in them and condensation can form on plastic and cause the seed to become damper than they should, then the sun shining directly on the container may help dry them out but it would be a continuing cycle that I would think could cause a mold to develop. 

With the lid on top of the container the seed are not getting direct sunlight anyhow so I can see no benefit in that. Seeds need to be kept in a cool, dry place and the lid fastened very securely to prevent mice/roaches and other little insects from getting in. With plastic, mice can chew through and contaminate the seed.

Someone else can probably explain the sun/dark/condensation thing better than I just did but I would move the seed out of the sun and elements.


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## Pidgey

Well, since we're in kind of a waiting mode, let's consider another possibility--Hypovitaminosis A. I don't know what the mix is that you're feeding your birds and I'm really not that knowledgeable about pigeon diets on the whole. I just buy this really good stuff and don't worry about it. However, it may be that you're looking at that as well. As such, it wouldn't hurt to try giving the bird some bird vitamins. You don't want to go overboard with it because too much Vitamin A, for instance, is toxic. Anyhow, this webpage has a small blurb on Hypovitaminosis A (scroll way down):

http://www.haiths.com/src/burns/article-Bird-Clinic-Clinic/

I don't know if you can get the bird vitamins in a bottle there like can be got here but it's something that you might think about tomorrow. There's several brands and they come like this:

http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...amins&In=Bird&previousText=vitamins&N=2023691

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Hi KAjupakhi,

True, both of the medications that you describe are anti-fungals with the gargle having the added antisceptic capabilities. I guess now it's a situation of waiting to see what Dr. Stahl's care package will include as the current regimine is topical in nature.

I'd agree w/Maggie on the storage of the seeds in a cool, dry place. Also w/your instructions to the maid on avoiding the debris at the bottom of the sack, that's an easy place for unwanted pests or fungis to start.

fp


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## Victor

I have to agree with Maggie and fp on their suggestion. I keep my seeds in the coop in a closed access door where the temp is cooler than the heated coop and the sun rays are away from it. The supplements and vitamins are kept indoors in a cool dry cabinet. When the hot temperatures return, the seeds will return to the house where it can be kept cool and dry.Please keep the feeder dry and away from wetness.


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

I was not getting internet connection yesterday...so could not give updates.

Well I cam continuing the can ker and fungus meds... and Dr Stahl's meds have been shipped out...should be here on Saturday or Monday...delayed due to Holiday season.

Meanwhile I took my birds for PMV vaccination yesterday to the same doc who said that he had fungus. He took a second look at Kaju's mouth and said that its healing gradually and will take about 15 more days to heal...he said that its not systemic. It turns out that he can arrange for his lab test. But he says that he is sure of what he is doing and does not need a lab test to make sure of anything. Although he promised that if needed he may arrange for it,though its a lot of trouble according to him. I STILL WISH THAT HE COULD RUN A LAB TEST SOONER!!! but he won't listen. He also says that its not systemic antifungal and was unwilling to prescribe local meds for it.

He also gave 2 more meds:
1. Bidanzen Forte--- to stop inflamation of the mouth.

2. Becosules Syrup
B- Complex with vitamin C
---For vitamins along with the med called Zest that he has already been taking for vitamins/calcium/minerals etc.

I have not yet started giving him these new meds coz I wanted to discuss with experts from this site...*SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT U THINK???*

Also I forgot to mention the fact that I do keep the seeds out and uncovered for about 4 hours everyday,and sometimes even lay them flat on a piece of cloth to get direct sunlight , except when it rains ofcourse.And after that I cover the lids of the container and keep them outdoors in the shades of verandah/Balcony which is always dry, but may be not that cool. My past experiences of keeping seeds indoors has been bad, even though I keep them in cool dry places indoors, but it still gets moist and damp easily when kept indoors, thereby increasing the insects that I was talking about... so it seems to me that it stays better when kept in shades of the Balcony.Infact I have seen other people do the same. So under the given situation and problems, *can u guys explain how the Moisture/Condensation/Sunlight ect factors would work in my case??
Please let me know*

Pidgey, thanks for the link on the third possibility...I will have a look. We don't have much good vitamins meds for birds here...I will look around though

KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

But this could be of some other cause that causes a loss of the epithelial cells like "squamous hyperplasia" due to a hypervitaminosis A. That one can cause lesions that resemble infections. You almost have to do a lab test to tell the difference, sometimes, by way of a biopsy and a look under the microscope. Hyperplasias can cause lots of cells to come off at a time in a cornified layer. They don't usually have a lot of inflammatory cells until they get to the point where they start staying chronically infected. 

Another way of saying that is that long term hypovitaminosis A causes, amongst other things, changes in the cells of the throat and mouth parts that can cause shedding of flakes. It may take a lab test to differentiate whether it's fungal, bacterial, protozoal or this other thing.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Can't tell you about those meds (only one's a med, right) or the vitamins either one. I'd like to see the bird get a little supplemental vitamin A, of course.

As to that deal with the condensation, it's a cyclic thing. Usually, there's a heating and cooling cycle through the day. It's best if you can keep the temperature as close to the same through the entire day and night as you can and the cooler the better. You'd really see the effect of moisture if you put some sealed up in a plastic bag outside and then go and check it all throughout the day. You'd probably see dewdrops form during parts of the day and night. That's what you're trying to avoid.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> It's just a thought. I found this:
> 
> "The gross appearance of lesions caused by squamous hyperplasia and metaplasia from hypovitaminosis A can resemble lesions caused by bacteria, yeast and protozoa; however, the cytology has a very different appearance. Normally, squamous epithelial cells exfoliate as single cells or small groups following gentle scraping of the oral cavity. However, lesions resulting from squamous cell hyperplasia produce smears containing large numbers of cornified squamous epithelial cells that exfoliate in large sheets or aggregates. In the early stages of this condition, there is little background debris. Therefore, the cytology resembles that of the vaginal cytology of a dog in estrus. It is equally important in the diagnosis of squamous cell hyperplasia to note what is not present in the cytologic specimen. One does not see inflammatory cells (at least in acute lesions), yeast or protozoa."
> 
> AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, page 210, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison and published by Wingers, 1994 and still available here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com
> 
> The translation to that is that long term hypovitaminosis A causes, amongst other things, changes in the cells of the throat and mouth parts that can cause shedding of flakes. The other thing that it's pointing out is that a simple test can differentiate whether it's fungal, bacterial, protozoal or this other thing.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,

well after reading about hypovitaminosis A , sounds like a definite possibility, coz as of how honestly nothing much has changed. Well those yellow skins are semi-hard in texture and seems like collection of layers of skin coming off together,,,and new ones developing soon after...I also took a look at the composition of the vitamin meds given to Kaju, i,e
1.Zest drops and 
2. Becosules Syrup
B- Complex with vitamin C


...and they all have all other kinds of vitamins but not Vitamin -A. So that means that there is a possibility of deficiency there. I tried looking around for Vitamin meds for birds but could not find anything...I will look in another shop today...*But any bird vitaminm med that has Vitamin A will do Right???*
If I cannot get it here, then I will have to get it again from USA. 

Unfortunately the doc seems so sure of his treatment that he is unwilling to take lab teats for now. HE does not have the equipments in his chambers, so he has to arrange for everything in a hospital...given the fact that lab tests for bird'd treatment is extremely rare here...it seems like too much of a hassle for him to do that!!! I wish he would do it now and not later

anyway I will let u know if I find any such med here...

Every day I have to go out searching for something for his treatment...but its all worth it if it saves his life...Searching for stuffs for him and feeding him and preparing and giving meds to him takes up my entire day...Its a good thing that I am on leave from work right now...this would not have been possible if I had to go to work every day

KAjupakhi


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## re lee

I noticed on the 1st post You said the bird fights with its son. Fighting alot with other birds can cause a soar in the mouth of the beak. Do you have this bird isolated from other birds. If it is not spreading I believe you do not have canker. Drying would come from the beak staying open to the air. I would be sure to isolate the bird until it looks healed. But if this has gone on for some time It may not improve much


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,
I did find some meds for amimal have that has Vitamin A.

1. Lino-E (for all animals)
Among other things it has Vitamin A -1500 iu

2. Tone-E-Bird (exclusively for birds)
Among other things the composition of Vitamin A here is: 60000 iu.

I gave him one drop of Tone-E-Bird this morning...*but I am not quite sure about the dosage that I need to give him...Please let me know if you can figure out about it? In terms of drops coming out from a dropper...coz that's how I give them the meds*

It says:
15 ml of Tone-E-Bird with equivalant of water for 100 birds.1 to 2 drops daily for acute cases.

Also if you think that Lino-E is better, then I might use that instead.

Re Lee- thanks a lot for your post. Yes I am keeping him seperated from the other birds...He does fight with his sone every now and then...


KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> 2. Tone-E-Bird (exclusively for birds)
> Among other things the composition of Vitamin A here is: 60000 iu.
> 
> I gave him one drop of Tone-E-Bird this morning...*but I am not quite sure about the dosage that I need to give him...Please let me know if you can figure out about it? In terms of drops coming out from a dropper...coz that's how I give them the meds*
> 
> It says:
> 15 ml of Tone-E-Bird with equivalant of water for 100 birds.1 to 2 drops daily for acute cases.


Well, that's pretty vague, isn't it? 15 milliliters for 100 birds for... one day? One week? One month? What kind of birds?

Does the bottle really contain 15 milliliters and, if so, does it tell what volumetric unit to go by for the 60,000 International Units (IU)?

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

*HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!*


Well I have some good news---

1. Just about 5 mins back I noticed some improvement in Kaju's mouth...although very little, but definitely some improvement!!!! Well the the little greyish-white spot just after the yellowish layer of skin in the pics of his lower beak has come off completely with no new growth underneath and you can see the curve for his tongue there clearly as is the case in normal situation...I am quite happy to see this...however the yellowish layer of skin is still coming off and growing back again 

2. Meanwhile yesterday I got the meds from Dr Stahl. 
He gave a canker med called Ronnizol, to be added daily with their water. 
On my request he also gave the med mentioned by Pidgey called Nystatin
Apart from that he send some baby bird formula.

3. After more than a week of looking around in every corner of the city to find out a lab where they can run a test on Kaju, *TODAY I FINALLY FOUND ONE!!!*. They will do a oral swab and sensitivity test ...the report will come on Saturday 

Meanwhile I am continuing with the canker and fungus meds and along with that for the past two days, I have changed the Vitamin med that I used to give uptill now for a new one which has more Vitamin A in it(Upon Pidgey's suggestion).

Well I have a question to ask in this regards--

Well the doctor says that its a good idea to give kaju a med called 
Becosules Syrup B-Complex with Vitamin C and recommended 15 drops of it every day. However I did not give this med to Kaju since it does not have vitamin A in its composition and I was worried about the Vitamin A deficiency disease mentioned by Pidgey . However I was wondering if its a good idea to give both vitamin meds to Kaju at the same time or will it be too much of vitamins for him which can be dangerous. *PLEASE LET ME KNOW*????

KAjupakhi


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## Skyeking

You might consider putting a drop of cod liver oil, (Norway-that is free of solvents and heavy metals). 

It provides an excellent source of Vitamin A, D3, and even some vitamin E. Because it is more in its natural state it is more absorbable. Vitamin D3 helps in the uptake of calcium and phosphorus( and also promotes a balance of the calcium/phosphorus ratio) from intestines into the bloodstream. The added bonus is you give your pigeons some EPA and DHA (EFA's) as well.

I put a little (drop or two) over the seed once in a while, a drop a month is enough.

Pigeons produce their own Vitamin C in the body, it is not required in the food. It is produced in the liver and helps produce antibodies to fight pathogens. It works closely with Vitamin C, so if there is a Vitamin A deficiency, the production of C will be diminshed.


----------



## Pidgey

Vitamins are funny stuff. Some of them you really can get too much of and if you do, it's bad. So, too much is bad as well as too little. Most of the time, the composition of our food is what we're trying to get all that stuff from and that's so variable that it's sickening (literally, sometimes). Anyhow, here's a good brief on vitamins:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/vitamin.htm

I was trying to find an RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) or even an MDA (Minimum Daily Allowance) number for pigeons for vitamin A. Unsuccessful so far but still looking. I was hoping to use that to figure out how much of that stuff that you got to give Kaju and the rest of your birds. It's probably meant to put drops in their water (that's what I've got for Unie although she doesn't seem to like it in there so I don't do it all the time) so if you could post all the information on the bottle, it might help.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, that's pretty vague, isn't it? 15 milliliters for 100 birds for... one day? One week? One month? What kind of birds?
> 
> Does the bottle really contain 15 milliliters and, if so, does it tell what volumetric unit to go by for the 60,000 International Units (IU)?
> 
> Pidgey



Yeah...its pretty vague...and it does not mention for how many days and for what kind of birds and it also does not tell what volumetric unit to go by for the 60,000 International Units (IU). And its written on the top of the box--15ml...so I guess that its supposed to be 15ml, although it looks MUCH MORE TO ME...so very confusing


----------



## Pidgey

Can you find the actual product by its name on the Internet? I tried using "Tone-E-Birds" and couldn't come up with anything. I tried other combinations and couldn't either. Since you've got the bottle, give it a shot.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> You might consider putting a drop of cod liver oil, (Norway-that is free of solvents and heavy metals).
> 
> It provides an excellent source of Vitamin A, D3, and even some vitamin E. Because it is more in its natural state it is more absorbable. Vitamin D3 helps in the uptake of calcium and phosphorus( and also promotes a balance of the calcium/phosphorus ratio) from intestines into the bloodstream. The added bonus is you give your pigeons some EPA and DHA (EFA's) as well.
> 
> I put a little (drop or two) over the seed once in a while, a drop a month is enough.
> 
> Pigeons produce their own Vitamin C in the body, it is not required in the food. It is produced in the liver and helps produce antibodies to fight pathogens. It works closely with Vitamin C, so if there is a Vitamin A deficiency, the production of C will be diminshed.



Hi Treesa, Thanks a lot for the infos, its really interesting to know...Cod liver oil sounds really useful...will look for it.


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## Pidgey

Well, it just gets more confusing by the minute when you're researching vitamins. Check this one out (it's a pigeon site):

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/vitamin_Supp.html

This is one of those deals where the path to The Cure is by trial-and-error more than anything. The test results could tell an awful lot, though. 

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Can you find the actual product by its name on the Internet? I tried using "Tone-E-Birds" and couldn't come up with anything. I tried other combinations and couldn't either. Since you've got the bottle, give it a shot.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,

I cannot thank you enough for everything you are doing for Kaju ...U ARE SIMPLY GREATTTTT!!!

Well Tone-E-Bird is a local med from Calcutta, India...and is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to find in the internet...and the box does not have much infos except the composition and its purpose and dosage.

Contents/15ml
Lysine Mono HCL 2500 mg
D.L.Methionine 2000 mg
Choline Choride 1500mg
Vitamin A 60000iu
Vitamin B1 15 mg
Vitamin B6 18 mcg 
Vitamin B12 4 mcg
Vitamin E 20 mg
Proteolysed Liver 50 mg
Sorbitol Base
Antioxidant q.s

FOR
Ruffeled feather leg, weakness or lameness due to malnutrition. Lack of lusture improving breeding efficiency better brooding

DOSE
15 ml. of Tone-E-Bird with equivalant of water for 100 birds 1-2 drops directly for acute cases.

And it has pictures of chickens and chicks...so I guess that its main focus is poultry...and that's about all the infos in the box.

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, it just gets more confusing by the minute when you're researching vitamins. Check this one out (it's a pigeon site):
> 
> http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/vitamin_Supp.html
> 
> This is one of those deals where the path to The Cure is by trial-and-error more than anything. The test results could tell an awful lot, though.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,

Thanks for the link, I will go over it.

KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

Okay, then, you'd said something about the size of the bottle of the stuff looking wrong--like there was actually more there than it indicated. Can you measure the bottle's diameter and height (to the point where the full fluid level stops) and we can try to figure out the volume?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, we can roughly calculate the size of a 15 milliliter container if it stays within the approximate 2:1 Height to Diameter ratio that a lot of bottles and cans have. Using that, it would be approximately 2 1/8 centimeters in diameter by 4 1/4 centimeters tall at the shoulder. 

If that strange comment ("with equivalent of water") means that it's 15 milliliters of stuff with 15 milliliters of water, then it's going to be: 2.67 centimeters in diameter by 5.35 centimeters at the shoulder.

Let us know.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I checked the stuff that I've got at the house and it's a one-ounce bottle so about 30 milliliters. It measures about 2.8 centimeters diameter by 5.7 centimeters high at the shoulder. It's a straight cylinder with a drop-dispensing, pop-up-to-open type cap. It says that it's made to put one drop per ounce of water (one drop in 30 milliliters) and it has a total of 315,000 International Units of vitamin A in the bottle. That puts Unie to getting about 87.5 International Units per day when I give it to her and I don't every day. She's probably a little lighter than Kaju.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Okay, I found a table of the requirements where I should have looked in the first place (AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, p. 1206). It says that the vitamin A requirement for pigeons is 200 International Units per kilogram of body weight. Therefore, a 300 gram bird would require 60 International Units per day (do we know what Kaju weighs?). So, it remains to figure out how much a given amount of that stuff that you got has in it.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hi Pidgey,

Thanks a lot for your help. Well the internet connection at home is n wrking anymore and none of the cyber cafes were open uptill now...so here I am typing from a cafe.

Well he bottle's diameter is about 3 cm and its height from where the med starts is: 4 cm.

I did buy a gram scale weihing machine and Kaju is about 350 gram

*Small Part of his yellow skin has also come off at night with no new growh underneath...it looks much better now *
KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Also I forgot o mention that Dr Sahl has also send some feeding tubes for med which has all sorts of measurements in cc/ml like 0.1 ml, 0.5 ml, 2 ml,5ml etc...so u can tell me ht way now coz I no longer need to use the droppers coz I can make the actual measurements now!!!


----------



## Pidgey

If that's a straight cylinder (the dimensions that you gave) then we're actually in the 30 milliliter range. What are you giving the birds drops with?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> Also I forgot o mention that Dr Sahl has also send some feeding tubes for med which has all sorts of measurements in cc/ml like 0.1 ml, 0.5 ml, 2 ml,5ml etc...so u can tell me ht way now coz I no longer need to use the droppers coz I can make the actual measurements now!!!


What is the smallest size of ?syringe? that you've got?

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

yep, its a straight cylinder...and I am using the regular droppers that u get here...with black rubber-like top for sqeezing...


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> What is the smallest size of ?syringe? that you've got?
> 
> Pidgey


0.1 ml going up to 1 ml is the smallest one I have


----------



## kajupakhi

for te past 2 days in your absence I was giving Kaju 1 drop from the indian dropper and the other 2 were getting 1/4th(roughly) of 1 drop


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## Pidgey

Well, then, here's the fun part--you're looking at giving Kaju about 1/3rd of that first 0.1 milliliters. At Kaju's weight, you're looking at a daily dose of 70 International Units (350 grams is 0.35 kilograms x 200 I.U./kilogram/day = 70 I.U. per day). So, at 60,000 I.U. for a 30 milliliter bottle, that's: 70/60,000*30.000 to give you 0.035 grams or 35 milligrams or 35 microliters or 1/3rd of 1/10th of a milliliter.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

How many days have you been giving Kaju the stuff altogether?

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> How many days have you been giving Kaju the stuff altogether?
> 
> Pidgey


well only for the past 2 days...today wil be the third day...

I used to give it before( about 2 years back) on a regular basis till I switched to anoher med


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, then, here's the fun part--you're looking at giving Kaju about 1/3rd of that first 0.1 milliliters. At Kaju's weight, you're looking at a daily dose of 70 International Units (350 grams is 0.35 kilograms x 200 I.U./kilogram/day = 70 I.U. per day). So, at 60,000 I.U. for a 30 milliliter bottle, that's: 70/60,000*30.000 to give you 0.035 grams or 35 milligrams or 35 microliters or 1/3rd of 1/10th of a milliliter.
> 
> Pidgey


*So I will be giving him about 1/3rd of that first 0.1 milliliters? Right??? *and how much for the other 2 birds??? 

KAjupakhi


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> for te past 2 days in your absence I was giving Kaju 1 drop from the indian dropper and the other 2 were getting 1/4th(roughly) of 1 drop


Incidentally, that amount that you've been giving him is well in the ballpark. You can figure it out pretty well if the dropper has a mark on it to show where 1 milliliter is. If you fill the dropper to that mark (if it has one), then hold the dropper like when you use it (a 45 degree angle is good) and count the number of drops that it takes to empty it, you can divide 1000 by that number and it'll tell you the size of the drops in microliters (likely equivalent to milligrams in this example).

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> *So I will be giving him about 1/3rd of that first 0.1 milliliters? Right??? *and how much for the other 2 birds???
> 
> KAjupakhi


Well, this is a little different from medicines per se because they should be getting some in their food but there's no easy way to know how much. That 70 I.U. level is the equivalent of the RDA which is bumped up a bit from the MDA and so it's the total that the bird should get and, we suppose, that overshooting it a little isn't going to be a problem. So, this level is the theoretical amount that a pigeon that size should get every day as a maintenance level.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

No the indian dropper does not have a mark...moreover now that I have the well marked syringe from US, if its more convenient to use them, then I would prefer using them...so its 1/4th of 0.1 ml once a day right?


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, this is a little different from medicines per se because they should be getting some in their food but there's no easy way to know how much. That 70 I.U. level is the equivalent of the RDA which is bumped up a bit from the MDA and so it's the total that the bird should get and, we suppose, that overshooting it a little isn't going to be a problem. So, this level is the theoretical amount that a pigeon that size should get every day as a maintenance level.
> 
> Pidgey


So I guess that I will give them all that amount coz they all weigh more or less the same...however, if its vitamin A deficiency for Kaju...then should he get a little more dosage just for now??Please let me know


----------



## Pidgey

It's going to be fun getting that amount out of a syringe reliably. You might try playing with a little bit to see if it works. That last little bit out of a 1 milliliter syringe is kinda' tough due to the usual bubble and the inaccuracy of that first 0.1 milliliter mark. You should very carefully fill the syringe to a further mark (like the 0.2) and then squeeze out a droplet from there that's the right amount. You can compare that to a droplet squeezed out from that last 1/3rd of 1/10th and see how well they compare.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> So I guess that I will give them all that amount coz they all weigh more or less the same...however, if its vitamin A deficiency for Kaju...then should he get a little more dosage just for now??Please let me know


You're sure not going to hurt them. It's possible that this is the ultimate reason for this thing that Kaju has had and it's also possible that it's one of the other things that we've already been looking at. This whole deal has been a whirlwind shotgun attack with nothing completely confirmed and there will be some doubt attached to the upcoming lab report due to the fact that so much has been done up to the point of taking the sample. If the report doesn't show any fungal growth at all, then we'll lean more towards hypovitaminosis A but we'll never be anything near 100%, I'm afraid. But this isn't going to hurt the birds at all as long as you make sure that they don't get too much (good instructions for the family).

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> It's going to be fun getting that amount out of a syringe reliably. You might try playing with a little bit to see if it works. That last little bit out of a 1 milliliter syringe is kinda' tough due to the usual bubble and the inaccuracy of that first 0.1 milliliter mark. You should very carefully fill the syringe to a further mark (like the 0.2) and then squeeze out a droplet from there that's the right amount. You can compare that to a droplet squeezed out from that last 1/3rd of 1/10th and see how well they compare.
> 
> Pidgey


Hi Pidgey,

GOT IT!!! thanks a lot... IS there something else that I need to know meanwhile...else I will go home now, coz I need to make sure that Kaju has eaten well...else I will have o fee him and then give him the meds...Hopefully the inernet at home will work soon and I can get back to you in the evening, else I will come to the cafe again and keep you updated...

Also I was wondering...how much should a normally healthy pigeon weigh??

Please let me know..

THANKS A LOT FOR EVERYTHIN!!!!

KAjpakhi


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> You're sure not going to hurt them. It's possible that this is the ultimate reason for this thing that Kaju has had and it's also possible that it's one of the other things that we've already been looking at. This whole deal has been a whirlwind shotgun attack with nothing completely confirmed and there will be some doubt attached to the upcoming lab report due to the fact that so much has been done up to the point of taking the sample. If the report doesn't show any fungal growth at all, then we'll lean more towards hypovitaminosis A but we'll never be anything near 100%, I'm afraid. But this isn't going to hurt the birds at all as long as you make sure that they don't get too much (good instructions for the family).
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah I know what u mean...this whole experience has been strange and mostly based on guess works...and HONESTLY I COULD NOT HAVE MANAGED WITHOUT THE HELP I GOT FROM ALL U WONDERFUL FOLKS !!!

I know hat the lab report will not be accurate...but I am still very excited about it...coz I need to know and inform my family about the problem so it does not hppen again...


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## Pidgey

Well, it depends on the size of the bird's frame. I've got several out in the loft that are just right for that same weight. Probably the best way is to feel Kaju's chest along the keel bone. If the keel is too sharp, he needs to gain some weight. If the muscles on either side fill in pretty well then he's alright. If you almost can't feel the keel bone at all for the muscle on either side, he's beginning to get a little portly.

I can't think of anything else to ask other than is Kaju beginning to eat on his own again pretty well?

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, it depends on the size of the bird's frame. I've got several out in the loft that are just right for that same weight. Probably the best way is to feel Kaju's chest along the keel bone. If the keel is too sharp, he needs to gain some weight. If the muscles on either side fill in pretty well then he's alright. If you almost can't feel the keel bone at all for the muscle on either side, he's beginning to get a little portly.
> 
> I can't think of anything else to ask other than is Kaju beginning to eat on his own again pretty well?
> 
> Pidgey


well the muscles on his keel bone fill in prety well even now!!!...however his eating ability changes from tme to time...one day he eats better, next day annot...and then the next day again he eats well...also the same difference is observed btw days and night of the sme day...


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## Pidgey

Well, I guess you'd have to pull the old trick of measuring out a specific amount into his food bowl and that's all he gets to eat that whole day. Then, you measure all that's left after 24 hours. You can do that several times in a row to get a good idea as long as you make sure that he's not losing ground by weighing him every day.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

hi Pidgey,

Thanks a lot again for helping me with my vitamin dosage...
My internet connection is still not working...kaju had a little bleeding from that area in the morning, but he is surely recovering and the beak looks much better now.
I have some questions--
well Dr Stahl has prescribed Nystatin to be given 0.6 ml twice daily for 10 days...however, I remember that u said that u mix it up with food every day...am I right?? and in that case how much of the loquid will I give everyday with food?

Also from my understanding of the med Ronnizole...it is given to the birds on a regular basis with drinking water as a preventive measure against canker...and that means that even when my birds do not have canker I will still keep giving it to them on a regular basis...am I right in my understanding??Please let me know.

KAjupakhi


----------



## Victor

Hi KAjupakhi, I have not posted anything recently,but I have been following the situation. Pidgey has been doing a great job guiding you and teaching many of us on the forum concerning your Kaju. 

Pidgey sometimes signs on late before he goes to bed, so hopefully he will be on soon.

As far an Canker medication, I do know that it will not harm the pigeons. When I received many of mine, I isolated them and treated them for canker. I also gave them a treated baths for parasites.This Spring as a preventive measure, All of mine will be re-treated just for preventative measure.

I hope and pray all will end well with Kaju and your other pigeons as well.


----------



## Pidgey

Nystatin comes in many forms. I have it in a powder that you can mix with food. Nystatin only works on what it touches and it is not absorbed into the system from the GI. Therefore, since some of your problem was in the actual front portion of the mouth, you'd want to get the stuff flowing from as far out on the beak as you can get it and then down the throat so do what you can to slosh it all inside the beak without spilling any. You may even want to paint it on with a Q-Tip before you put the rest of a dose down the hatch. That would probably be the best way with the form of the drug that you've got.

With the Ronidazole, it's one of those deals where if your birds are completely isolated and they're getting clean water that doesn't have trichomonads in it, then you should theoretically be able to run them through a course of treatment one time and that should be it. For most, the birds get to fly outside and there's no telling how but they will get infested again. They'll either get with some other birds and do some billing, or drink out of a pool of standing water, whatever, but then they certainly have to be routinely treated. A lot of people have regular treating schedules along the lines of once or twice a year, perhaps more. You might consider your situation and come up with your own way. I expect your birds have gone years without it at this point, right? 

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> Hi KAjupakhi, I have not posted anything recently,but I have been following the situation. Pidgey has been doing a great job guiding you and teaching many of us on the forum concerning your Kaju.
> 
> Pidgey sometimes signs on late before he goes to bed, so hopefully he will be on soon.
> 
> As far an Canker medication, I do know that it will not harm the pigeons. When I received many of mine, I isolated them and treated them for canker. I also gave them a treated baths for parasites.This Spring as a preventive measure, All of mine will be re-treated just for preventative measure.
> 
> I hope and pray all will end well with Kaju and your other pigeons as well.



Hi Victor,

Thanks a lot for your interest, concern and prayers...I KNEW THAT YOU WERE FOLLOWING ON THE SITUATION AND PRAYING!!!its very sweet of you 
Yeah Pidgey is AMAZING!!! very well informed, helpful and caring!!! I am glad that I came to know some really wonderful people here!!!

Also thanks a lot for informing me about the Canker preventive measures, its good to know these things when you have pigeons as pets.

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Nystatin comes in many forms. I have it in a powder that you can mix with food. Nystatin only works on what it touches and it is not absorbed into the system from the GI. Therefore, since some of your problem was in the actual front portion of the mouth, you'd want to get the stuff flowing from as far out on the beak as you can get it and then down the throat so do what you can to slosh it all inside the beak without spilling any. You may even want to paint it on with a Q-Tip before you put the rest of a dose down the hatch. That would probably be the best way with the form of the drug that you've got.
> 
> With the Ronidazole, it's one of those deals where if your birds are completely isolated and they're getting clean water that doesn't have trichomonads in it, then you should theoretically be able to run them through a course of treatment one time and that should be it. For most, the birds get to fly outside and there's no telling how but they will get infested again. They'll either get with some other birds and do some billing, or drink out of a pool of standing water, whatever, but then they certainly have to be routinely treated. A lot of people have regular treating schedules along the lines of once or twice a year, perhaps more. You might consider your situation and come up with your own way. I expect your birds have gone years without it at this point, right?
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey,

Thanks a lot for the information on Nystatin and Ronidazole. Well no none of my birds have ever had Canker treatments before... They always get clean drinking water, same as what my family drinks(No tap water).Moreover they are completely indoor birds and never go out and mingle with ferals. Even though there are lots of ferals everywhere around our house and live very close to my birds, but since mine live in cages, so the ferals are unable to drink from their water cups.
But still its good to treat them for canker now and then ...I guess... 

Well the sad news is that although today morning his beak looked better, but by tonight it seems like new yellow skins are again growing underneath...so seems like it's getting ugly again    
Hope he recovers soon...

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

I guess that lab might be more important than we think. If it is Hypovitaminosis A, then there will be some long term damage to the epithelial layer (the skin-like stuff) that's cellular in nature. That is, there will have been some mutation that might not fix itself too quickly. We'll just have to see. I guess you're still treating him for every doggone thing with all those meds, right?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I guess that lab might be more important than we think. If it is Hypovitaminosis A, then there will be some long term damage to the epithelial layer (the skin-like stuff) that's cellular in nature. That is, there will have been some mutation that might not fix itself too quickly. We'll just have to see. I guess you're still treating him for every doggone thing with all those meds, right?
> 
> Pidgey


Yep!! I am still treating him for everything...although since yesterday I stopped giving him Metro coz the dosage is over...and from today i started Nystatin and Ronizol(wrong spelling...excuse me ) with water...

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

However he ate on his own really well today...ALMOST LIKE HE WOULD DO NORMALLY  !!!...he ate well yesterday night too!!


----------



## Pidgey

Well, then, things are looking... better! I don't think I'd run too long on the Ronidazole. At this point, any canker's probably over so I'd go with the anti-fungals and train the birds' keepers what to do in your absence with everything and have the Ronidazole at the ready. I think I'd maintain the Tone-E-Bird indefinitely and train them about that, too, as well as the antifungals. I would probably keep giving him the antifungals until the lab tests come back. If that comes back negative, then I'd probably discontinue the antifungals.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, then, things are looking... better! I don't think I'd run too long on the Ronidazole. At this point, any canker's probably over so I'd go with the anti-fungals and train the birds' keepers what to do in your absence with everything and have the Ronidazole at the ready. I think I'd maintain the Tone-E-Bird indefinitely and train them about that, too, as well as the antifungals. I would probably keep giving him the antifungals until the lab tests come back. If that comes back negative, then I'd probably discontinue the antifungals.
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey


THANKS !!! I will keep these things in mind and train my family accordingly!!!...the lab results should he ready by tomorrow or the day after...

well regarding my going back to US...I am not sure that I can do that unless Kaju's treatment is over...I will probably loose my job and my parents are really angry with me now...and shocked with disbelief about my decision...let's hope he gets well soon!!! so I can save my job and career!!!

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

What's your original timeline? It may be that he's just going to slowly heal over the next few weeks or months and that's all there is to it. In such case, it's just going to be a deal of him either getting the vitamin A or the medication on a regular basis. If it's the vitamin deal, then it will be a lifelong thing and if it's taken care of and he's recovered enough for self-management (albeit with his daily supplement administered faithfully), then I think your job's done.

Pidgey


----------



## Victor

I am sorry that it is almost time for you to have to return to the US. You only have a few days left, right?

I recall the day I lost Tooter last New Years eve day, I was scheduled to work from 1"30 pm till PM. The hawk chase began at 1M ( my drive to work is about 14 minutes) I called "with a family emergency", and dog gone it it was the truth! I arrived to work about 5PM knowing that Tooter was out there somewhere, possibly being chased by that, or another Hawk, or worse yet, laying dying somewhere in someones yard.

Maybe you can call in and request an extension from your employer? I hope all works well so you can return on schedule, and no one gets angry with you. 

I am happy that Kaju is eating and drinking, and seems fairly stable now. All we have now is the beak problem.


----------



## Pidgey

Victor said:


> I called "with a family emergency", and dog gone it it was the truth! I arrived to work about PM knowing that Tooter was out there somewhere, possibly being chased by that, or another Hawk, or worse yet, laying dying somewhere in someones yard...
> 
> I am happy that Kaju is eating and drinking, and seems fairly stable now. All we have now is the beak problem.


Ain't that the truth, Victor? I don't know how many times I've gone through the same thing...

Kajupakhi,

What Victor's pointing out about the eating is quite correct. I don't know how much you absorbed from that quote that I threw in earlier, but what it was saying is that the membranes in the bird's mouth and throat start getting kinda' messed up and frail, just like ours do when we really get old. If this was in fact Kaju's problem, then it'd be akin to having a sore throat and not even wanting to get anything in there because swallowing would hurt. 

As the membranes get their vitamin A replenished, they start healing up, thickening and working properly. The net effect would be that it starts getting easier to swallow. I expect that the stuff that did form and is still forming out on the beak tip area is a small problem compared to the other bad stuff that was going on in the areas nearer the base of the tongue. I never did quite get what you were saying about the deeper areas but this is what I have imagined was going on--you might clarify your observations on that a little more by describing exactly what and exactly where what was going on back then.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> What's your original timeline? It may be that he's just going to slowly heal over the next few weeks or months and that's all there is to it. In such case, it's just going to be a deal of him either getting the vitamin A or the medication on a regular basis. If it's the vitamin deal, then it will be a lifelong thing and if it's taken care of and he's recovered enough for self-management (albeit with his daily supplement administered faithfully), then I think your job's done.
> 
> Pidgey


Well I have tickets for 12th Jan around 3:00 am...so I should leave home on 11th Jan night.My parents are really upset and angry with me. According to them, they worked hard to provide me the best of education so that I can be successful and independent and now I am giving it all up for a pigeon...I know that they have a point and they are promising that they will take proper care of him...but Kaju is not just a pigeon...he is my baby and I just cannot prepare myself to part from him at this time when he needs me most...What if some thing goes really wrong after I leave, then I will feel really bad that I abandoned him for my career and let him die...let's see what happens I want to wait till atleast he eats properly on his own.
THERE'S A LOT OF TENSION IN MY HOUSE RIGHT NOW!!! Nobody's talking to me anymore and dad said that if I decide to stay back then I cannot live in his house, I have to pack up my stuffs and my birds and get out of the house  I know that he will not do that in reality, but he is really mad at me.

Well in the morning his bill looked pretty bad with lots of those yellow skin and he could not eat a single seed on his own again...then in the afternoon a lot of it came off and the beak looks a lot cleaner now( but from my past experience, it will grow back )...after the shedding of those skin in the afternoon, he managed to eat some seeds for lunch, though not enough...let's see how he does for dinner...
His progress is very unpredictable and situation changes so quickly. 

I don't know if its my imagination or if its a fact but from my observation of his progress, every time I give him the med Candid oral and Nystatin, the situation gets worse and everytime I give him Betadine germicide gargle and Tone-E-Bird, his beak appears to be healing...any idea what is going on?? may be some of the drugs is not suiting...well the lab reports will come tomorrow...but overall situation right now is much better(look wise) than what it was yesterday...but he was eating better yesterday... 

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

Nystatin isn't going to cause any problem because the body doesn't care that it's there. I can't say as much for the Candid Oral or the Betadine, though. Why don't you try this: just the Nystatin and the Tone-E-Bird and see where that gets you for a couple of days.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Also, I think your parents would rather learn to take as good of care of the bird (complete with joining PigeonTalk and working with us, if necessary) as you do, rather than you staying and ruining your career. Why not try a compromise and see how that goes?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Nystatin isn't going to cause any problem because the body doesn't care that it's there. I can't say as much for the Candid Oral or the Betadine, though. Why don't you try this: just the Nystatin and the Tone-E-Bird and see where that gets you for a couple of days.
> 
> Pidgey


sure ...I will do that then...


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Also, I think your parents would rather learn to take as good of care of the bird (complete with joining PigeonTalk and working with us, if necessary) as you do, rather than you staying and ruining your career. Why not try a compromise and see how that goes?
> 
> Pidgey



Yeah...that would be great if they did that...but neither of them are that computer oriented people...actually u see its not that common for people of my parent's generation to use computer here...my mom does not know a thing about it and is unwilling to learn( coz its too much for her...according to her) and dad hardly has much time after work...the max he does is showing Kaju to us through web cam...that's all...and his office secretary does all the computer related works for him like sending emails etc...this way of working is pretty common here...


----------



## Pidgey

Also, try this: use Google or whatever and look up "cornified", "hyperplasia", "squamous cell" and the other words found in that excerpt in this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=171327&postcount=100

Because this may be a condition that might not go away very quickly at this point.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> Yeah...that would be great if they did that...but neither of them are that computer oriented people...actually u see its not that common for people of my parent's generation to use computer here...my mom does not know a thing about it and is unwilling to learn( coz its too much for her...according to her) and dad hardly has much time after work...the max he does is showing Kaju to us through web cam...that's all...and his office secretary does all the computer related works for him like sending emails etc...this way of working is pretty common here...


I guess, then, that you see if they can do it as a team and get the secretary helping with the communications.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Also, I think your parents would rather learn to take as good of care of the bird (complete with joining PigeonTalk and working with us, if necessary) as you do, rather than you staying and ruining your career. Why not try a compromise and see how that goes?
> 
> Pidgey



However as far as learning to take good care of my birds, however they are both really cooperative...specially my mom...its just I am unable to leave ...its hard mentally


----------



## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> I am sorry that it is almost time for you to have to return to the US. You only have a few days left, right?
> 
> I recall the day I lost Tooter last New Years eve day, I was scheduled to work from 1"30 pm till PM. The hawk chase began at 1M ( my drive to work is about 14 minutes) I called "with a family emergency", and dog gone it it was the truth! I arrived to work about 5PM knowing that Tooter was out there somewhere, possibly being chased by that, or another Hawk, or worse yet, laying dying somewhere in someones yard.
> 
> Maybe you can call in and request an extension from your employer? I hope all works well so you can return on schedule, and no one gets angry with you.
> 
> I am happy that Kaju is eating and drinking, and seems fairly stable now. All we have now is the beak problem.



Its a good thing that Tooter came back to you safely!!!
Well I came here on an emergency leave( my uncle expired) and this is a new job...so I don't think that I will get extension


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I guess, then, that you see if they can do it as a team and get the secretary helping with the communications.
> 
> Pidgey


   I don't think that's a possibility. Dad never lets his secratery write personal emails for him...HE never really needs to write personal emails here...phone is enough...however he did write some personal emails a few times to us...so he can send emails if needed...but that's rare


----------



## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> It's just a thought. I found this:
> 
> "The gross appearance of lesions caused by squamous hyperplasia and metaplasia from hypovitaminosis A can resemble lesions caused by bacteria, yeast and protozoa; however, the cytology has a very different appearance. Normally, squamous epithelial cells exfoliate as single cells or small groups following gentle scraping of the oral cavity. However, lesions resulting from squamous cell hyperplasia produce smears containing large numbers of cornified squamous epithelial cells that exfoliate in large sheets or aggregates. In the early stages of this condition, there is little background debris. Therefore, the cytology resembles that of the vaginal cytology of a dog in estrus. It is equally important in the diagnosis of squamous cell hyperplasia to note what is not present in the cytologic specimen. One does not see inflammatory cells (at least in acute lesions), yeast or protozoa."
> 
> AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, page 210, by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison and published by Wingers, 1994 and still available here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com
> 
> The translation to that is that long term hypovitaminosis A causes, amongst other things, changes in the cells of the throat and mouth parts that can cause shedding of flakes. The other thing that it's pointing out is that a simple test can differentiate whether it's fungal, bacterial, protozoal or this other thing.
> 
> Pidgey



Haven't kept up here for a bit, and this may be off topic at this point. But
I did examine the material that was 'shed' by the rescue under the microscope and it appeared to be fungal growth. That rescue had been in rehab for a couple of weeks when this occurred and had been on antibiotics, a pigeon specific diet, etc.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Ain't that the truth, Victor? I don't know how many times I've gone through the same thing...
> 
> Kajupakhi,
> 
> What Victor's pointing out about the eating is quite correct. I don't know how much you absorbed from that quote that I threw in earlier, but what it was saying is that the membranes in the bird's mouth and throat start getting kinda' messed up and frail, just like ours do when we really get old. If this was in fact Kaju's problem, then it'd be akin to having a sore throat and not even wanting to get anything in there because swallowing would hurt.
> 
> As the membranes get their vitamin A replenished, they start healing up, thickening and working properly. The net effect would be that it starts getting easier to swallow. I expect that the stuff that did form and is still forming out on the beak tip area is a small problem compared to the other bad stuff that was going on in the areas nearer the base of the tongue. I never did quite get what you were saying about the deeper areas but this is what I have imagined was going on--you might clarify your observations on that a little more by describing exactly what and exactly where what was going on back then.
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah I do realise what u mean about the beak membranes healing gradually as he keeps getting the Vitamins...
well initially when I saw his beak for the first time, then the tip area looked really hard and white and the area just near the base of the tongue looked hard cornish and yellowish...but not as hard as the tip area. Then after applying the meds, the tip started looking cleaner and the soft membrane like formations were visible in the area just near the base of the tongue where the yellowish cornish growth was located. Probably the yellow cornish growth softened into this soft skin-type stuff. Now this is also gradually coming off...also I sometimes think that the whitish formation near the tip is actually an extension of the yellow stuff that is near the base of the tongue...I think that it started at the tip and then gradually moved inwards...

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Haven't kept up here for a bit, and this may be off topic at this point. But
> I did examine the material that was 'shed' by the rescue under the microscope and it appeared to be fungal growth. That rescue had been in rehab for a couple of weeks when this occurred and had been on antibiotics, a pigeon specific diet, etc.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,
u mean that the fungal growth was shedding like skin from the curve of his lower beak just under his tongue and then growing back again?

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

It is possible, you know, that if it is a true hyperplasia, it may never completely resolve. It may have to be occasionally manually removed. Really need those lab results.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> It is possible, you know, that if it is a true hyperplasia, it may never completely resolve. It may have to be occasionally manually removed. Really need those lab results.
> 
> Pidgey


Now that means that there is a lot of trouble ahead still


----------



## Pidgey

It could be worse, you know--squamous cell hyperplasia is a mutation that in the worst case can turn to cancer (squamous cell carcinoma). Look it up.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Hi fp,
> u mean that the fungal growth was shedding like skin from the curve of his lower beak just under his tongue and then growing back again?
> 
> KAjupakhi


It did this more than once. It is now fully resolved. I notice some references to symptoms in a Pigeon specific medical reference book that you may be interested in. Taking into consideration that the degree of deficiency is going to determine the extent of the symptoms. A white cheesy discharge from underneath the eyelids, pasty eyelids, mucous/(and/or accumulation of) is evident in the nasal passages, ruffled feathers, incoordination, weakness and lack of coordination. That the deficiency can be accompanied w/a bacterial infection is noted in another text. If a deficiency, and given the supplements, visible signs of recovery should begin within 2-3 weeks, then revert to standard vitamin supplementation.


From this site:

http://www.netpets.com/birds/healthspa/vet/eclectus2.html

....and hyperkeratosis of the metatarsal and digital pad.(7).


Many veterinarians treat suspect deficient birds with a single combined injectable vitamin A and D3 product, and change the diet more appropriately. 

And a good site on the topic:

http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/vitamina.htm

You could have more than one thing going on, and again, w/out lab work,
it makes it so much more difficult to know with certainty what you're dealing with. Anyway, I thought this information might be helpful for you to take a look at.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

kaju's lab report just came in.
It says:

*REPORT OF: THROAR SWAB CULTURE

AEROBIC CULTURE SHOWS GROWTH OF STREPTO VIRIDANS, N.CATARRHALIS
(NORMAL FLORA) *


SO????


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> It did this more than once. It is now fully resolved. I notice some references to symptoms in a Pigeon specific medical reference book that you may be interested in. Taking into consideration that the degree of deficiency is going to determine the extent of the symptoms. A white cheesy discharge from underneath the eyelids, pasty eyelids, mucous/(and/or accumulation of) is evident in the nasal passages, ruffled feathers, incoordination, weakness and lack of coordination. That the deficiency can be accompanied w/a bacterial infection is noted in another text. If a deficiency, and given the supplements, visible signs of recovery should begin within 2-3 weeks, then revert to standard vitamin supplementation.
> 
> 
> From this site:
> 
> http://www.netpets.com/birds/healthspa/vet/eclectus2.html
> 
> ....and hyperkeratosis of the metatarsal and digital pad.(7).
> 
> 
> Many veterinarians treat suspect deficient birds with a single combined injectable vitamin A and D3 product, and change the diet more appropriately.
> 
> And a good site on the topic:
> 
> http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/vitamina.htm
> 
> You could have more than one thing going on, and again, w/out lab work,
> it makes it so much more difficult to know with certainty what you're dealing with. Anyway, I thought this information might be helpful for you to take a look at.
> 
> fp[/QUOT
> 
> Thanks a lot fp...I will take a look at these links


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> kaju's lab report just came in.
> It says:
> 
> *REPORT OF: THROAR SWAB CULTURE
> 
> AEROBIC CULTURE SHOWS GROWTH OF STREPTO VIRIDANS, N.CATARRHALIS
> (NORMAL FLORA) *
> 
> 
> SO????


Well, what it means does depend a little bit on what they were testing for. If they were testing for yeasts and fungi besides the bacteria and they didn't mention any fungal growth, then you're probably leaning even more towards hypervitaminosis A. So, that's your job--make sure that the lab was testing for fungi.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi, are you doing lab work while the bird is on meds, if so, which ones?

Also, if frequently accompanied by a bacterial infection, is the bird currently on an antibiotic or been cultured for the correct one if needed?

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

everybody is driving me crazy these days  
well even though I told the lab people and Kaju's doc many times that I want to get the test done for fungus(among other things)...it turns out now that they did the test only for bacteria and not fungus. So today once again they took Kaju's sample to test for fungus and the report will come after 10 days ... , When he took Kaju's sample today morning, he hardly had any growth coz most of them got peeled off at night...so I don't know how useful the test will be...

Meanwhile by afternoon the yellow growth reappeared once again...moreover today all day(including in the evening) Kaju's mouth is filled with too much of sticky salaiva and any time he is trying to eat, the seeds are getting stuck in his tongue and so he cannot swallow...it does not look like he has a hard time swallowing so far, he has a harder time dealing with those sticky salaiva which sticks the seeds in his tongue and so he is unable to slip it down his throat using his tongue...THE POOR BIRD COULD NOT EAT ANYTHING TODAY ...nothing for breakfast, lunch or dinner...

Fp--well the first time that he has the lab test, I took him off all meds for 2 days before the test(that's what the doc told me)

and today I gave him Tone-E-Bird about 3 to 4 hours before they took the sample( I would not have given him the meds had I known that he would have to go through another round of tests)


----------



## Pidgey

Is he getting enough water and staying hydrated well enough?

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Too bad you can't cancel that one and bring him in during the afternoon cycle.
I think the saliva thing is one of the presenting symptoms for Vit A defic.
So, your situation doesn't have an accompanying bacterial infection which is
what I was concerned about because you mentioned that the germicidal was
working better than the anti-fungal.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

OK, re-reading this, not quite that sticky. Maybe there's blockage of the saliva ducts, this can happen from the condition.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Is he getting enough water and staying hydrated well enough?
> 
> Pidgey


yes...he drinks enough water


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Too bad you can't cancel that one and bring him in during the afternoon cycle.
> I think the saliva thing is one of the presenting symptoms for Vit A defic.
> So, your situation doesn't have an accompanying bacterial infection which is
> what I was concerned about because you mentioned that the germicidal was
> working better than the anti-fungal.
> 
> fp


well since his situation is very unpredictable and varies from time to time so there is no way of being sure of when the growth will reappear and I have to make appointment in the morning and fix time with the lab guy from beforehand for him to come and take his samle and it is impossible for me to predict when the growth will reappear...often it grows back within an hour


----------



## feralpigeon

This must be very frustrating for you. About the seeds sticking to the tongue, can you tube/syringe feed?

fp


----------



## Guest

I saw the pictures of this bird. This pigeon has a typical canker infection where the canker breaks through the tissues in the lower beak and invades it internally. The swelling in the lower beak is the canker filling up and separating the bone from the tissue. A five day treatment of a canker medication will kill the infection, however the beak distortion can remain. It's possible that a surgery is needed after the infection dies in order to clean out the deposits from the lower beak otherwise the alien tissue will continue to remain and create a continuing bacterial infection.
Since there is an opening in the lower beak, bacteria is invading the area so an antibiotic is needed. You are cleaning off the canker deposits you see so you don't see so much of it in the mouth but it is going deeper into the internal beak.
In the meantime, this bird is receiving medications that it doesn't need and which is destroying his system. Please only use a canker medication, a broad spectrum antibiotic and a yeast medication no stronger than Nystatin to offset the antibiotics creating an atmosphere in the gut that is yeast friendly and to try and undo the effects of unnecessary medications that were given. A probiotic will help in preventing yeast cells from growing out of control.
This bird is in pain and is not inclined to eat food. The pressure in the lower beak must be causing almost unbearable pain. You are going to have to feed him by hand if you don't want live off his body fat and lost weight. This is a very sick bird.
This is not hypovitaminosis as the typical symptom of it is a hyperkeratosis of the tissues not swelling of the internal beak. This is not a fungal infection but is the typical course canker can take.


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> ...often it grows back within an hour


It's just not likely to be fungal at this point. The test for the fungal is a simple smear onto a slide and then a quick look in a microscope--it's just not rocket science nor does it need to be cultured. Actually, you're probably better off not culturing it because it's better to get a snapshot of something like that to know if that's what's there RIGHT NOW. Well, I gotta' head off to the other place where I can't access the Internet.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Fungal growth notoriously does sometimes spring almost out of nowhere, it's fast. Whatever it is, I'd think lab
work might aid in identifying it. pigeonperson seems to have come out of nowhere also, interesting input.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> This must be very frustrating for you. About the seeds sticking to the tongue, can you tube/syringe feed?
> 
> fp


well its far more frustrating for him...he tries so hard to swallow but cannot due to sticky saliva...infact when I came to India this time, it was this seed sticking in his tongue that caught my attention for the first time and then I looked inside his mouth and saw the deposition...so this feature was present even before I started giving the meds.

Yes I did get the baby food formula and med giving syringe from Dr Stahl and I did give him baby food for some time...he does not enjoy it. 
Moreover if I feed him seeds by putting one seed into his mouth from the side of his mouth, then the seeds do not get stuck in his mouth and he has no problem swallowing it or digesting, infact he sits like an angle and cooperates...I think that he loves to sit on my lap and enjoys the whole experience of being fed.
So as of now I am feeding him seeds and will tube feed only in case of emergency(Hope that does not happen)

but he behaves like a big snob when my mom or any one else tries to feed him 
He struggles and refuses to open his mouth... and they have to forcefully open it which sometimes causes bleeding in that area where the injury is located. So now another big problem for me is to find someone who can feed him well...


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> It's just not likely to be fungal at this point. The test for the fungal is a simple smear onto a slide and then a quick look in a microscope--it's just not rocket science nor does it need to be cultured. Actually, you're probably better off not culturing it because it's better to get a snapshot of something like that to know if that's what's there RIGHT NOW. Well, I gotta' head off to the other place where I can't access the Internet.
> 
> Pidgey


Well after reading your posts and messages I also realised that tests for fungus is not hard...but these lab guys are saying that after taking the sample they will have to grow the fungus from there  and will take about 8 days...and if it comes out negative then they will conduct the Vitamin A test...every time they are taking a lot of money from me...wonder if they are genuine or are just making money out of me by fooling me...

I did not quite what u said about the snaps...can u please explain in more details??


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> ............
> 
> but he behaves like a big snob when my mom or any one else tries to feed him
> He struggles and refuses to open his mouth... and they have to forcefully open it which sometimes causes bleeding in that area where the injury is located. So now another big problem for me is to find someone who can feed him well...


Sometimes burrito-ing them w/a hand towel helps. They could try that. Sounds like this part is going to be tough. How many days has he been on Vitamin supplements?

fp


----------



## Pidgey

pigeonperson said:


> I saw the pictures of this bird. This pigeon has a typical canker infection where the canker breaks through the tissues in the lower beak and invades it internally. The swelling in the lower beak is the canker filling up and separating the bone from the tissue. A five day treatment of a canker medication will kill the infection, however the beak distortion can remain. It's possible that a surgery is needed after the infection dies in order to clean out the deposits from the lower beak otherwise the alien tissue will continue to remain and create a continuing bacterial infection.
> Since there is an opening in the lower beak, bacteria is invading the area so an antibiotic is needed. You are cleaning off the canker deposits you see so you don't see so much of it in the mouth but it is going deeper into the internal beak.
> In the meantime, this bird is receiving medications that it doesn't need and which is destroying his system. Please only use a canker medication, a broad spectrum antibiotic and a yeast medication no stronger than Nystatin to offset the antibiotics creating an atmosphere in the gut that is yeast friendly and to try and undo the effects of unnecessary medications that were given. A probiotic will help in preventing yeast cells from growing out of control.
> This bird is in pain and is not inclined to eat food. The pressure in the lower beak must be causing almost unbearable pain. You are going to have to feed him by hand if you don't want live off his body fat and lost weight. This is a very sick bird.
> This is not hypovitaminosis as the typical symptom of it is a hyperkeratosis of the tissues not swelling of the internal beak. This is not a fungal infection but is the typical course canker can take.


Hyperkeratosis=the buildup of keratin. Hypovitaminosis A, amongst other things, causes metaplasia of the mucous membranes to the point of a causing localized hyperplasia to the point of producing aggregated cornified squamous cell exfoliation. Cornification is, amongst other things, the overproduction of keratin and Kajupakhi's descriptions of the sheets being removed are in harmony with that description.

http://ocw.tufts.edu/Content/5/lecturenotes/215759

Since the bird has already done an extended course of Metronidazole and since this condition has remained somewhat stabilized for an extended period predating the arrival of Kajupakhi (it would be interesting to question the caretakers to see how long ago they might have noticed it) to the point of being an ongoing problem for a few weeks now, it's looking rather unlike canker. I'd suggest that you read the entire thread in detail (only Kajupakhi's entries are necessary) and note the timeline.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Sometimes burrito-ing them w/a hand towel helps. They could try that. Sounds like this part is going to be tough. How many days has he been on Vitamin supplements?
> 
> fp



Tried wrapping him with towels to feed...he struggles and comes out.

Well he has been having vitamin tonics for the past 5 years...He was having Tone-E-Bird for the first 3 years and then I changed that med and started giving him another vit med called Zest...and now for the past 6/7 days(I think) I am back to Tone-E-Bird again after realising that the med Zest has a lot of diff types of vitamins but no vit A in it... So u see he has been getting vitamins for a long time now...just not the right type...wish I realised this before...


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Tried wrapping him with towels to feed...he struggles and comes out.
> 
> Well he has been having vitamin tonics for the past 5 years...He was having Tone-E-Bird for the first 3 years and then I changed that med and started giving him another vit med called Zest...and now for the past 6/7 days(I think) I am back to Tone-E-Bird again after realising that the med Zest has a lot of diff types of vitamins but no vit A in it... So u see he has been getting vitamins for a long time now...just not the right type...wish I realised this before...


Maybe a personality thing, if there's someone else around consistenly you might try them, otherwise it's either train your parents to accept or train the bird to accept them. Either one wouldn't be easy.

How long was this fellow on Zest for? How many days now has the pij been receiving Vitamin A supplementations since you became aware of his current problem?

fp


----------



## Pidgey

A snapshot look in a microscope. You just take a moist cotton swab, wipe the area, wipe it on a slide taking care to get something like a droplet on it, throw on a coverslip, examine at 100x total magnification and if there are budding yeasts or hyphae, you're going to see them immediately. Why on earth would you want to culture for yeasts when they're a normal inhabitant and will be there anyway? It's when they're literally growing and, for lack of a better explanation, throwing down roots that they're a real problem. That means immediate tests. Tell those goofballs to bring their microscope and do the test on the spot. Or, you can bring the bird to them and then they can do it on their spot. If they're not willing to do that then the tests aren't of much use, frankly. They could also swab for trichomonads at the same time--if that were part of the problem, you'd see them on the same slide.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

All right, I've spent a fair amount of time re-reading this thread, going over
pigeonperson's post and also pm-ing and em-ing w/the new member who is actually a highly experienced rehabber.

Pigeonperson, I will now refer to as PP, less typing. PP thinks it's a terminology
issue regarding the 'shedding' term and that what is happenning is that the exudite from the canker is being cleared away regularly. That the protozoan
is 'burrowing' far beneath what is able to be seen there at the beak, and that
even after a 5 day course of Ronidazole, most likely surgical debridement would
be necessary to remove the canker mass. In the meantime, PP believes the
pigeon should be hand fed puppy chow that has been wet so to get around
the 'sticky saliva' problem and the bird losing weight. I mentioned the topical
application of the Ronidazole mix to PP on the actual sore, and PP felt that it wouldn't hurt but probably wouldn't help because it's too deep to reach that way at this point.

All I have to add to this is that regardless, I'd probably still try the q-tip moistened w/the medication applied locally, because it can't hurt and on the
chance that it would help.

I would also make sure that your pigeon is getting the amount of the 'drinking
water' mix of the Ronidazole water that is normal and customary for a pigeon to be drinking under normal conditions which may mean that you may need to 
crop-drop the medicated water w/your 'dropper' to ensure that this bird is getting the amount it needs in it's blood stream. So this would typically be
30-60ml per day of the medicated drinking water depending on the climate or 5-8% of the bodyweight.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

fp, I'm very glad you were able to make contact with "PP". Lord knows, we need all the additional input we can get. I hope they will continue to help out.


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Maybe a personality thing, if there's someone else around consistenly you might try them, otherwise it's either train your parents to accept or train the bird to accept them. Either one wouldn't be easy.
> 
> How long was this fellow on Zest for? How many days now has the pij been receiving Vitamin A supplementations since you became aware of his current problem?
> 
> fp


well my birds have been on Zest for the past 1 to 2 years and hosestly I liked it coz it has calcium and minerals along with vitamins..
For a while kaju seemed to have a slight weakness in one of his foot and a overgrowing upper beak which went away afrted giving Zest.

As for Tone-E-Bird...the vitamin A med, I started giving it about 6 to 7 days back


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> A snapshot look in a microscope. You just take a moist cotton swab, wipe the area, wipe it on a slide taking care to get something like a droplet on it, throw on a coverslip, examine at 100x total magnification and if there are budding yeasts or hyphae, you're going to see them immediately. Why on earth would you want to culture for yeasts when they're a normal inhabitant and will be there anyway? It's when they're literally growing and, for lack of a better explanation, throwing down roots that they're a real problem. That means immediate tests. Tell those goofballs to bring their microscope and do the test on the spot. Or, you can bring the bird to them and then they can do it on their spot. If they're not willing to do that then the tests aren't of much use, frankly. They could also swab for trichomonads at the same time--if that were part of the problem, you'd see them on the same slide.
> 
> Pidgey



Thanks a lot for your explanation.
well I spoke to the lab guy and he said that by today afternoon he will let me know if he will take the test as mentioned by you.

Meanwhile I have done google search to fin d out what trichomonads, yeasts and hyphae looks like and I am confused coz they look different in different pictures. *So can you send me some links where I can get pictures of the standart image of all these 3 things under microscope so I can personally identify better what I see under microscope*, instead of depending on those lab guys.


----------



## Pidgey

Do you have a microscope or do you intend to look into theirs when the time comes?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> All right, I've spent a fair amount of time re-reading this thread, going over
> pigeonperson's post and also pm-ing and em-ing w/the new member who is actually a highly experienced rehabber.
> 
> Pigeonperson, I will now refer to as PP, less typing. PP thinks it's a terminology
> issue regarding the 'shedding' term and that what is happenning is that the exudite from the canker is being cleared away regularly. That the protozoan
> is 'burrowing' far beneath what is able to be seen there at the beak, and that
> even after a 5 day course of Ronidazole, most likely surgical debridement would
> be necessary to remove the canker mass. In the meantime, PP believes the
> pigeon should be hand fed puppy chow that has been wet so to get around
> the 'sticky saliva' problem and the bird losing weight. I mentioned the topical
> application of the Ronidazole mix to PP on the actual sore, and PP felt that it wouldn't hurt but probably wouldn't help because it's too deep to reach that way at this point.
> 
> All I have to add to this is that regardless, I'd probably still try the q-tip moistened w/the medication applied locally, because it can't hurt and on the
> chance that it would help.
> 
> I would also make sure that your pigeon is getting the amount of the 'drinking
> water' mix of the Ronidazole water that is normal and customary for a pigeon to be drinking under normal conditions which may mean that you may need to
> crop-drop the medicated water w/your 'dropper' to ensure that this bird is getting the amount it needs in it's blood stream. So this would typically be
> 30-60ml per day of the medicated drinking water depending on the climate or 5-8% of the bodyweight.
> 
> fp




Hi Fp 

Thanks a lot for taking up the time and effort to pm and em pp to get a clearer idea of his input.
Well he has been on metro for 8 days, so should I keep giving that again? is there any harm if I give too much of it?

Also if suppose it is debris from canker that are deposited there...in that case
is it necessary to do surgery or can I get some meds for that...coz I do not think that I can find a doctor who will be willing to do that in India...

Also what is puppy chow? is it the same as baby bird formula...coz that's all I have right now?
*PLEASE LET ME KNOW *
Well since yesterday afternoon his bulging mandibles have been looking little yellowish from outside as well and he is bleeding more 

He seemed to have recovered a lot about 2 days back...and now its getting ugly again...so unpredictable


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Do you have a microscope or do you intend to look into theirs when the time comes?
> 
> Pidgey


I will take kaju to their lab today or tomorrow to see in their lab, if they are willing to take the teat...he will let me know today


----------



## Pidgey

Link to a super-sized budding yeast picture:

http://www.rkm.com.au/FUNGI/Candida.html

Link to the way it looks in the microscope:



Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Link to a super-sized budding yeast picture:
> 
> http://www.rkm.com.au/FUNGI/Candida.html
> 
> Link to the way it looks in the microscope:
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks a lot..
Question...I see a brown image and a pink one...they look completely diff..so is the pink/red thread like image what is to be found in the brown pic?...that's how I am getting confused with all the google images

Also can u send images of Hyphae and Tichomonads as well

Thanks


----------



## Pidgey

For even more looks through the microscope for the fungal stuff as well as the trichomonads, you can go here and read the whole page:

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> For even more looks through the microscope for the fungal stuff as well as the trichomonads, you can go here and read the whole page:
> 
> http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks a lot..I will read it


----------



## Pidgey

The different colors might deceive you but they're actually slides that have been stained with different stains. Sometimes with microscopy, we stain things to help identify them--an artifact may stain with one stain but not another and so you can use stains to test them.

So, you're really more interested in the form rather than the colors. That upper link showing the huge budding yeast only really shows (for your purposes) that they're often football shaped with a smaller bud growing off one end.

Also, the artifacts can be the same shape in the different pictures that you're looking at but might seem unrecognizable to you because they are being shown at different magnifications. Don't let that confuse you--learn to focus on the shapes more than anything. 

Hyphae look kinda' like root clusters. Fungi are more plant-like than anything else and hyphae are kinda like stems or roots.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> The different colors might deceive you but they're actually slides that have been stained with different stains. Sometimes with microscopy, we stain things to help identify them--an artifact may stain with one stain but not another and so you can use stains to test them.
> 
> So, you're really more interested in the form rather than the colors. That upper link showing the huge budding yeast only really shows (for your purposes) that they're often football shaped with a smaller bud growing off one end.
> 
> Also, the artifacts can be the same shape in the different pictures that you're looking at but might seem unrecognizable to you because they are being shown at different magnifications. Don't let that confuse you--learn to focus on the shapes more than anything.
> 
> Hyphae look kinda' like root clusters. Fungi are more plant-like than anything else and hyphae are kinda like stems or roots.
> 
> Pidgey


Yeah I figured out the shapes of Yeast and Hyphae from google quite a bit...but I am confuse about the look and shape of trichomonads...can u please send me some images of trichomonads and explain their shapes?


----------



## Pidgey

Incidentally, I read one reference that said that there are differing opinions about hypovitaminosis A in pigeons: some authors didn't think that pigeons got that because they metabolize vitamin A so well; others think that it's actually prevalent but generally unrecognized. Anyhow, it is possible that Kaju might have more difficulty with the vitamin seeing as how he got so much when he was young since you administered that stuff on a regular basis. Sometimes, the body learns better how to work with these things when deprived more during the formative years.

There has been some questioning talk in this thread about what the actual flakes that you're getting out of his beak are like--can you describe in great detail what they're like and where all they seem to form? (e.g., yellow, clear, like the hard skin that comes off of blisters, easily crumble-able, tough as leather, inflexible, about one centimeter long by two millimeters wide, between the tip of the lower beak and the base of the tongue, from the roof of the mouth... that kind of stuff--everything that you can think of)

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Trichomonads are a lot tougher to see in the microscope until you get to higher magnifications (like 1000x) and are using oil. That means that you have to put a drop of oil on the slide, run the lens right down into it (that particular lens is made for that) and then start looking. You can see their movement easily at lower magnifications and, once you get used to looking for it, it's pretty distinctive. On that finchaviary link that I gave you, there are links to movies of trichomonads down towards the bottom of the page. Have you looked at them?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Incidentally, I read one reference that said that there are differing opinions about hypovitaminosis A in pigeons: some authors didn't think that pigeons got that because they metabolize vitamin A so well; others think that it's actually prevalent but generally unrecognized. Anyhow, it is possible that Kaju might have more difficulty with the vitamin seeing as how he got so much when he was young since you administered that stuff on a regular basis. Sometimes, the body learns better how to work with these things when deprived more during the formative years.
> 
> There has been some questioning talk in this thread about what the actual flakes that you're getting out of his beak are like--can you describe in great detail what they're like and where all they seem to form? (e.g., yellow, clear, like the hard skin that comes off of blisters, easily crumble-able, tough as leather, inflexible, about one centimeter long by two millimeters wide, between the tip of the lower beak and the base of the tongue, from the roof of the mouth... that kind of stuff--everything that you can think of)
> 
> Pidgey



yellow--well initially when I first noticed, it looked greyish white and now after giving meds it looks yellow

clear--No

like the hard skin that comes off of blisters--initially before applying meds, it used to be like a hard skin...now its soft membrane-like

inflexible--yes

about one centimeter long by two millimeters wide-- yes...about that size

between the tip of the lower beak and the base of the tongue---yes

from the roof of the mouth---no

Sticky Saliva--yes

Bleeding--occationally

when the injury is dry(less saliva) then closer look reveals about some thin sheets of membrane. I have collected some of those that Kaju shed from his mouth and after drying out if you press them, then they look like dead tissues .
However once I pressed one of those shedding soon after it came off his face and saw that it became like a paste...not something that you would expect from a skin/membrane


I will let u know if I can think of anything else...I have to go and feed Kaju now


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Trichomonads are a lot tougher to see in the microscope until you get to higher magnifications (like 1000x) and are using oil. That means that you have to put a drop of oil on the slide, run the lens right down into it (that particular lens is made for that) and then start looking. You can see their movement easily at lower magnifications and, once you get used to looking for it, it's pretty distinctive. On that finchaviary link that I gave you, there are links to movies of trichomonads down towards the bottom of the page. Have you looked at them?
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks for the info...I was reading the link, but have not looked at the video yet


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, well, this webpage here has a drawing of a trichomonad so that you can see the form as well as a view of the movement as seen through a microscope, plus description of the disease:

http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php

My turn to go to bed, goodnight Kajupakhi!

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> well my birds have been on Zest for the past 1 to 2 years and hosestly I liked it coz it has calcium and minerals along with vitamins..
> For a while kaju seemed to have a slight weakness in one of his foot and a overgrowing upper beak which went away afrted giving Zest.
> 
> As for Tone-E-Bird...the vitamin A med, I started giving it about 6 to 7 days back


It may be neither here nor there, but an overgrowing upper beak is one of the many symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency. I've also read that when trying to remedy this problem, treatment has to start w/shots in order for the oral supplements to be benefited from.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Hi Fp
> 
> Thanks a lot for taking up the time and effort to pm and em pp to get a clearer idea of his input.
> Well he has been on metro for 8 days, so should I keep giving that again? is there any harm if I give too much of it?
> 
> Also if suppose it is debris from canker that are deposited there...in that case
> is it necessary to do surgery or can I get some meds for that...coz I do not think that I can find a doctor who will be willing to do that in India...
> 
> Also what is puppy chow? is it the same as baby bird formula...coz that's all I have right now?
> *PLEASE LET ME KNOW *
> Well since yesterday afternoon his bulging mandibles have been looking little yellowish from outside as well and he is bleeding more
> 
> He seemed to have recovered a lot about 2 days back...and now its getting ugly again...so unpredictable




hi kajupakhi,

I read in one of your posts that you were getting in Ronidazole. I would switch to that and additionally treat topically 3-4 times per day if you can. This is in addition to making sure that the bird is getting enough of the medicated water if that's the route of administration. You do need to be careful regarding neurological damage w/Flagyl, metronidazole, fishzole. I'm assuming Pidgey has given you a timeline on that medication. But if the Ronidazole is there.....switch.

Probably not, it will need surgical debridement not just the oral meds.

Puppy chow is kibbled food that is small in size and fed to puppies. I believe the idea was to get food into him w/as little fuss as possible for the both of you because of the lesion.

By the way, what do his poops look like these days and how about the volume?

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> hi kajupakhi,
> 
> I read in one of your posts that you were getting in Ronidazole. I would switch to that and additionally treat topically 3-4 times per day if you can. This is in addition to making sure that the bird is getting enough of the medicated water if that's the route of administration. You do need to be careful regarding neurological damage w/Flagyl, metronidazole, fishzole. I'm assuming Pidgey has given you a timeline on that medication. But if the Ronidazole is there.....switch.
> 
> Probably not, it will need surgical debridement not just the oral meds.
> 
> Puppy chow is kibbled food that is small in size and fed to puppies. I believe the idea was to get food into him w/as little fuss as possible for the both of you because of the lesion.
> 
> By the way, what do his poops look like these days and how about the volume?
> 
> fp



well the med that Dr Stahl gave me to mix with water is called Ronnizol.
So is it the same as Ronidazole?????? let me know.
The dosage to Dr Stahl says : mix 1/4th tsp with 1 liter of water .
I do that and put it in his water bowl. Now if Kaju is a 300 gm bird, then how much ml of that liquid whould he have per day...please let me know.

If it needs surgury then its hard here to get that done...kaju will never recover ...this is sad then...

his poops seem alright in color, size ans shape...


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> well the med that Dr Stahl gave me to mix with water is called Ronnizol.
> So is it the same as Ronidazole?????? let me know.
> The dosage to Dr Stahl says : mix 1/4th tsp with 1 liter of water .
> I do that and put it in his water bowl. Now if Kaju is a 300 gm bird, then how much ml of that liquid whould he have per day...please let me know.
> 
> If it needs surgury then its hard here to get that done...kaju will never recover ...this is sad then...
> 
> his poops seem alright in color, size ans shape...


Yes, I'm quite sure that it would be one in the same with Ronidazole, mix it at that strength keeping the remainder in the fridge. Also, you could cut the mix in half so you weren't mixing so much up at a time if you wanted.

Then it is about making sure that he gets 5-8% of his body weight tubed, syringed or crop-dropped. That's a range of between 30-60ml per day.
I would leave the medicated water out for him, just make sure that you give him the minimum of the range.

So you notice no more or no less overall in volume, and no difference in consistency, odor, color anything at all of this kind of information? Are the
feces slimy/mucousy?

Can kaju come back with you when you come here?

fp


----------



## Pidgey

For that water amount, 5% of 300 grams is 0.05 x 300, or 15 milliliters; 8% would be 0.08 x 300, or 24 milliliters; so 15 to 30 milliliters is more correct.

Let's consider another possibility here: Stomatitis (old common name: Trench Mouth). That's something that may occur due to food accumulation that's caused by beak deformities in the first place. When pigeons are fed a diet that's got a lot of powderized stuff, especially when that powder may contain "gluten", it can build up in the lower beak and make a perfect Petrie dish for bacteria to grow to the point of affecting the tissue. It can cause plaques to build up and ulcers to form. Pain from that can cause the bird to stop eating.

Got that outa' AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION pp. 488-89, by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison, published by Wingers Publishing and still obtainable here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com

Since you said that there was a lot of dust in that food that Kaju was eating before you arrived, this might be part of it. That particular problem becomes a combination of bacterial infection and complications due to localized damage and constant inflammation. It may be that the topical Betadine stuff that you were putting on does do some good by way of keeping the bacterial growth down. You might also consider giving Kaju a flake of REAL aspirin (it can NOT have any acetaminophen--Tylenol--in it) about the size of the loop in this letter: "e" Give that up to three times per day down the throat. That may possibly help a little with the inflammation. We might also add a systemic antibiotic but I'm going to go back and read the whole thing to see what all's been done.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Pidgey said:


> Let's consider another possibility here: Stomatitis (old common name: Trench Mouth).
> 
> Pidgey


Trench mouth is also another name for Candida or Thrush.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Wikipedia: "Trench mouth is a polymicrobial infection of the gums leading to inflammation, bleeding, deep ulceration and necrotic gum tissue, there may also be fever. It is also known as Vincent's stomatitis or acute necrotizing ulcerative gingivitis (ANUG)."

As I read it, "Trench Mouth" is a term that refers more to the effects of whatever's causing the problem, rather than being specific to the cause. I have no doubt that the term has been applied that way before and that a lot of folks use it that way. In the book, though, it appears to encompass a broader scope.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Don't know about that Pidgey, I've only heard Trench used as slang for Candida
or Thrush:

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/ag/sec17/ch197/ch197d.html

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...Trench+mouth+thrush&ei=UTF-8&fr=sbc-web&x=wrt


I think ithis is because of the gross appearance of the fungis and the change in 
saliva.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec08/ch115/ch115d.html


----------



## feralpigeon

Thanks, pidgey, I see it can be applied in other ways.

fp


----------



## feralpigeon

Do you believe that it is not canker?

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Believe? As far as I'm concerned, it can be any one or any combination of the things that we've discussed to this point. My particular strategy would be to hit it with as many different non-conflicting meds and other stuff as possible in the hope of seeing definite improvement on Kajupakhi's timeline. I'd hit it with the Ronidazole (now that Kajupakhi's got it), the vitamin A, the topical Betadine stuff (that was Betadine, wasn't it?) and an antibiotic and the Aspirin.

That one description from the Big Book about the lesion in the anterior beak (right where Kajupakhi is removing the artifacts) seems to hit pretty hard. I'd also start feeding the bird the cleanest stuff possible. It may be that all along the stuff that was doing the most good was the topical med (not the specific antifungal).

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Were the initial vitamin A supplements given as injections?
I have read this is the only way for the body to start using
orally administered ones after a deficiency sets in.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

I don't believe so and so I'd advise her to proceed on your suggestion and get the bird injected. Historically, Kajupakhi typically comes on here in the next couple of hours and so she should read this. It will be her bedtime here fairly quickly and so I rather doubt she can get it done until tomorrow morning her time at best. That'll be about bedtime for me.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Okay, well, this webpage here has a drawing of a trichomonad so that you can see the form as well as a view of the movement as seen through a microscope, plus description of the disease:
> 
> http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php
> 
> My turn to go to bed, goodnight Kajupakhi!
> 
> Pidgey



Thanks Pidgey, This link is exactly what I wanted...
I could not get in toych with the lab guys toady...let's see what happens tomorrow, will keep u informed

Meanwhile, while I am getting the lab tests done,apart from Budding yeast, Hyphae and Tichomonads, is there any other micro organism (or anything else)that I need to look at under microscope, SPECIALLY FOR VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY or Stomatisis...in that case can u provide links to those things and describe what they would look like under microscope, also please mention how I need to do the test for them,i,e what magniaication of the microscope, do I need to put oil, what is the process etc...actually u see, I will have to guide the lab guy personally, else I wonder how much he can do on his own.
Unfortunately all the decent labs here are unwilling to test for animals, so this is the only one I found that was willing to test on birds...since its not that good, so I NEED AS MUCH GUIDANCE AS I CAN GET FROM YOU...THANK YOU!!!

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Yes, I'm quite sure that it would be one in the same with Ronidazole, mix it at that strength keeping the remainder in the fridge. Also, you could cut the mix in half so you weren't mixing so much up at a time if you wanted.
> 
> Then it is about making sure that he gets 5-8% of his body weight tubed, syringed or crop-dropped. That's a range of between 30-60ml per day.
> I would leave the medicated water out for him, just make sure that you give him the minimum of the range.
> 
> So you notice no more or no less overall in volume, and no difference in consistency, odor, color anything at all of this kind of information? Are the
> feces slimy/mucousy?
> 
> Can kaju come back with you when you come here?
> 
> fp


Thanks a lot for the Ronnidazole infos...but just checking again, its the same as Ronizole that I got from Dr Stahl, Right?

Well I keep note of his poop everyday based on Brad's post 'poops...what do they mean' and every day so far his poop seemed just normal in size, thickness, color, smell, volume etc...its the regular greenish brown one with white topping 

I tried bringing him to US 2 years back, but was too scared of the 1 month quarantine, and now that he has the beak problem, so I am unsure if he can survive the 1 month quarantine ...so its probably not in his best interest


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> For that water amount, 5% of 300 grams is 0.05 x 300, or 15 milliliters; 8% would be 0.08 x 300, or 24 milliliters; so 15 to 30 milliliters is more correct.
> 
> Let's consider another possibility here: Stomatitis (old common name: Trench Mouth). Here is an excerpt:
> 
> "Stomatitis may occur secondary to food accumulations caused by beak deformities. Beak necrosis has been described in pigeons and gallinaceous birds fed a finely ground, high-gluten food. The gradual accumulation of fine particles of food along the inner edge of the lower beak leads to secondary infection and necrosis of the beak. Feeding pelleted rations prevents the problem. The tongue of turkey poults fed a finely ground mash may be curled backward by an accumulation of food on the floor of the mouth. Many trichotecenes, notably T2 toxin, can cause caustic injury to the alimentary mucosa. Yellow erosive and exudative plaques with underlying ulcers located near the salivary duct openings on the palate, tongue and buccal floor are characteristic lesions. Thick crusts of exudate may accumulate along the anterior margin of the beak. Anorexia is probably caused by the painful lesions in the beak."
> 
> AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION pp. 488-89, by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison, published by Wingers Publishing and still obtainable here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com
> 
> Since you said that there was a lot of dust in that food that Kaju was eating before you arrived, this might be part of it. That particular problem becomes a combination of bacterial infection and complications due to localized damage and constant inflammation. It may be that the topical Betadine stuff that you were putting on does do some good by way of keeping the bacterial growth down. You might also consider giving Kaju a flake of REAL aspirin (it can NOT have any acetaminophen--Tylenol--in it) about the size of the loop in this letter: "e" Give that up to three times per day down the throat. That may possibly help a little with the inflammation. We might also add a systemic antibiotic but I'm going to go back and read the whole thing to see what all's been done.
> 
> Pidgey



Thanks a lot for informing me about the dosage of Ronidazole.

Stomatitis seems like a definite possibility...infact that's what the first doc who did the scrapping said...he said that the slippery nature of his mouth is reduced and so the food particles are getting stuck in the bottom beak...

So how will I know if the asprin has tylenol in it or not?? usually pills here do not have their compostions written in their packets.

Also this will not go against the other meds right??


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Believe? As far as I'm concerned, it can be any one or any combination of the things that we've discussed to this point. My particular strategy would be to hit it with as many different non-conflicting meds and other stuff as possible in the hope of seeing definite improvement on Kajupakhi's timeline. I'd hit it with the Ronidazole (now that Kajupakhi's got it), the vitamin A, the topical Betadine stuff (that was Betadine, wasn't it?) and an antibiotic and the Aspirin.
> 
> That one description from the Big Book about the lesion in the anterior beak (right where Kajupakhi is removing the artifacts) seems to hit pretty hard. I'd also start feeding the bird the cleanest stuff possible. It may be that all along the stuff that was doing the most good was the topical med (not the specific antifungal).
> 
> Pidgey



Yes its Betadine, and honestly, that seems to show good results immediately
...however, since his previous lab tests showed that he has normal flora and so no bacterial infectation, then how come Betadine is suiting him best?? any idea??

Yes he is getting very clean seeds now and mom will make sure that he gets that for the rest of his life from now on, coz she decided to take up that responsibility herself now instead of giving it to our maid So I am sure that this will not be repeated


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Were the initial vitamin A supplements given as injections?
> I have read this is the only way for the body to start using
> orally administered ones after a deficiency sets in.
> 
> fp



No I do not have vitamin A suppliment injections here...in that case I will have to get them from US, but do u think that we need to waite and make sure that its Vitamin A deficiency before we inject it to him...coz would there be any damage if its not VitaminA deficiency(Since he was getting Vitamins all along, although not Vit A specifically) and we still inject that in his body?? Please let me know


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I don't believe so and so I'd advise her to proceed on your suggestion and get the bird injected. Historically, Kajupakhi typically comes on here in the next couple of hours and so she should read this. It will be her bedtime here fairly quickly and so I rather doubt she can get it done until tomorrow morning her time at best. That'll be about bedtime for me.
> 
> Pidgey



well I have extended my stay here till 16th feb...hope the prob is resolved by then...inspite of the damage that my staying here would cause to my personal and professional life, my basic humanity could not let me abandon
this little helpless bird in his hour of need...moreover I love his sooooo much that its all worth it if it saves his life


----------



## Pidgey

I can't imagine that you couldn't get a vitamin A shot there. As long as they don't give him enough for toxicosis, that shouldn't be a problem. And, no, I don't know off the top of my head what that level would be but I'll try to look it up later and post it.

If it's stomatitus, then the Betadine might work by way of keeping all bacterial, fungal, protozoal and goodness-knows-what-else on the surface of the lower beak while it heals from below. You have to understand that Stomatitis in this presentation would be the overgrowth of and the body's reaction to too many organisms. Sometimes when the body attacks too hard, too fast and too much, it disorganizes the local tissues and they become like a war zone--too much chaos. In such a case, first you have to havp peace, and then you can rebuild the town but things aren't going to get better enough until enough of the town has been rebuilt. And, the town can't be rebuilt until the war's either over or as good as over.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I can't imagine that you couldn't get a vitamin A shot there. As long as they don't give him enough for toxicosis, that shouldn't be a problem. And, no, I don't know off the top of my head what that level would be but I'll try to look it up later and post it.
> 
> If it's stomatitus, then the Betadine might work by way of keeping all bacterial, fungal, protozoal and goodness-knows-what-else on the surface of the lower beak while it heals from below. You have to understand that Stomatitis in this presentation would be the overgrowth of and the body's reaction to too many organisms. Sometimes when the body attacks too hard, too fast and too much, it disorganizes the local tissues and they become like a war zone--too much chaos. In such a case, first you have to havp peace, and then you can rebuild the town but things aren't going to get better enough until enough of the town has been rebuilt. And, the town can't be rebuilt until the war's either over or as good as over.
> 
> Pidgey


is the vit A shot same as for humans? and is there any harm if he does not have the deficiency and I still give that shot??


----------



## Pidgey

I don't know what you'd do about the Aspirin thing besides asking a pharmacist point-blank to give you a pill that only has that. Over here, a lot of Aspirin pills come as 5 grain tablets (usually shown as 325 milligrams even though it's really 323.995).

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> is the vit A shot same as for humans? and is there any harm if he does not have the deficiency and I still give that shot??


As long as the shot is sized for the bird and not a human. Yes, you can get too much of the stuff. I, or someone else, will more than likely try to post the probable range before you get on in the morning.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> Thanks Pidgey, This link is exactly what I wanted...
> I could not get in toych with the lab guys toady...let's see what happens tomorrow, will keep u informed
> 
> Meanwhile, while I am getting the lab tests done,apart from Budding yeast, Hyphae and Tichomonads, is there any other micro organism (or anything else)that I need to look at under microscope, SPECIALLY FOR VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY or Stomatisis...in that case can u provide links to those things and describe what they would look like under microscope, also please mention how I need to do the test for them,i,e what magniaication of the microscope, do I need to put oil, what is the process etc...actually u see, I will have to guide the lab guy personally, else I wonder how much he can do on his own.
> Unfortunately all the decent labs here are unwilling to test for animals, so this is the only one I found that was willing to test on birds...since its not that good, so I NEED AS MUCH GUIDANCE AS I CAN GET FROM YOU...THANK YOU!!!
> 
> KAjupakhi


The answer to this one will be here in the morning, your time. It actually requires a pretty big answer. I'll edit this specific post.

It's nice to have an answer to things without killing the bird to get it, of course, and that sometimes is the problem. When what's going on isn't on the surface, but rather in the tissues then you've sometimes got to take biopsies to figure it out if you want or need to know that badly. I don't think that's practical here. So, at best, you're going to be dealing more with medicating and observing the effects to run the DDx (Differential Diagnosis).

As a primer on microscopes, though, they have the eyepiece up top which is usually a 10 or 15x magnification of the objective lens, which is what's down near the slide. Objective lenses vary but they're often spread out as a 4x, a 10x, a 40x and then a 100x Oil. Multiplying the objective lens by the eyepiece, that'd give you 40x, 100x, 400x and 1000x total magnifications. Only the 100x Oil lens is used with a droplet of special oil on the slide to help sharpen the picture. That doesn't mean that you have to--merely that it will be a sharper image. Sometimes, that comes in handy

As far as how diagnostic it will be to take a smear and look for stuff, there might not be a lot to see at this point. I was thinking that it would be far more informative to know if you were looking at a lot of fungi than anything else although catching a trichomonad in the act would be nice, too, if that's what it was. The finding of a trichomonad does not mean that a bird has trichomoniasis (the disease) because most wild pigeons that I bring in as ferals do have trichomonads in abundance in their crops. By the same token, finding a budding yeast is not proof positive of candidiasis. It's all in how many you find per visual field on a slide that often becomes diagnostic.

I'm going to post some pages on Webshots so that you can print them out, save them to your computer or just read them. They will go into far more detail. Personally, even though I at first thought that this may be canker, I've slowly lost the conviction due to the fact that Kaju simply didn't respond to therapy in the way that we'd normally see from the Metronidazole. It's unlikely that your area would be the kind of place that saw a lot of resistant strains because you don't see the use of the stuff in pigeons over there like you do in, say, Belgium. That coupled with the fact that these birds have been isolated for pretty much their entire lives from other birds and sources of water just adds credence to that idea. While seven years old isn't exactly geriatric, it's approaching that for a bird of Kaju's type. We will occasionally see 30 years in domestic pigeons but that's by far not the norm and I don't think that ferals, even in captivity, often meet the longer lifespans of the well-cared-for domestics.

As to seeing bacteria with a microscope, if it's a really good one you can see them but only just. Usually, what you do to try and identify them at times various and sundry is by utilizing staining techniques. There is something to be determined on the shapes of the bacteria that you see based on where you got them from but I don't think it'll be that useful here. It would probably be more significant to the clinical picture if you saw a very great deal of them in the sample. They tend to look like tiny dots, small jelly beans, longer rods and even longer rods. There are some pictures of them in the pages of pictures that I posted on the links below. Here is a link to a picture that I took at 1000x with oil of a smear that's been Gram-stained:



Link to pages to read (click on the little picture):



On the vitamin A shot, the clinical dosage for pigeons is 33 KIU/kg, IM, QW. That means: 33,000 International Units per kilogram of bird, IntraMuscular (a shot in the muscle), Every Week. So, for Kaju, you'd be looking at NO MORE THAN 9,900 International Units at a time. Personally, I'd only give a fraction of that like half or so.

For antibiotics, why don't you see if you can find some Ciprofloxacin, or Keflex, or Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Bactrim, Cotrim, several other names). You don't need all of those--it would be nice if you could find one of them, though.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

Put one soft gel cod liver oil capsule and only one down. That will take care of the bird's Vitamin A requirements. Vitamin A can become toxic so only give the bird one capsule. 
Instead of aspirin which can cause acidosis in the wrong dose, get a hold of Metacam if possible and give one drop per day.
Please continue with the Ronidazole. This bird has canker.
The sticky saliva is indicative of two things, dehydration and the mixing of canker exudate with the saliva.
If this bird pulls through, a surgery is required to clean out the canker deposits from the beak and soft tissue. Don't try to do anything yourself. There is a ligament band that runs from the base of the beak almost to the very tip and a good vet knows to be wary of severing it. If the canker severs the band, the beak will scissor.


----------



## jazaroo

I thought I would make a quick post on vitamin A. 

Our avian vet recommended Virgin Red Palm Oil for our Amazons as they sometimes suffer from lack of Vitamin A. We just add a little to their soft food a few times a week and they seem to actually enjoy the taste. Here is a link to some information on it http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm . I am sure it would be readily available in India and because of its alpha and beta carotene content it is quite safe with regards to toxicity problems.

I imagine you could could coat some seeds or lentils with the oil or even soak some small pieces of say corn bread in it. Do not use high heat on this oil, as it destroys its vitamin content.

Ron


----------



## Guest

Jazaroo,
The reason pet parrots are given supplements is because they only eat the kernel of the seed which mainly consists of unhealthy fat. All of the nutrients is in the husk of the seed and the reason why pigeons are not normally disposed to Vitamin A deficiency is because they swallow the entire seed, husk and all.


----------



## jazaroo

Thanks pigeonperson for the information. A seed diet I agree is not a healthy one for Parrots, that's why mine are on a pelleted and soft food diet, but my vet thought it would be a good idea to supplement them a few days a week with the palm oil.

My thought was this is something that is very safe and effective, as well as the fact there is a good chance he may have it in his house right now to supplement his bird with.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I don't know what you'd do about the Aspirin thing besides asking a pharmacist point-blank to give you a pill that only has that. Over here, a lot of Aspirin pills come as 5 grain tablets (usually shown as 325 milligrams even though it's really 323.995).
> 
> Pidgey


ok...will do that


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> As long as the shot is sized for the bird and not a human. Yes, you can get too much of the stuff. I, or someone else, will more than likely try to post the probable range before you get on in the morning.
> 
> Pidgey


good to know that...thanks


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> The answer to this one will be here in the morning, your time. It actually requires a pretty big answer. I'll edit this specific post.
> 
> It's nice to have an answer to things without killing the bird to get it, of course, and that sometimes is the problem. When what's going on isn't on the surface, but rather in the tissues then you've sometimes got to take biopsies to figure it out if you want or need to know that badly. I don't think that's practical here. So, at best, you're going to be dealing more with medicating and observing the effects to run the DDx (Differential Diagnosis).
> 
> As a primer on microscopes, though, they have the eyepiece up top which is usually a 10 or 15x magnification of the objective lens, which is what's down near the slide. Objective lenses vary but they're often spread out as a 4x, a 10x, a 40x and then a 100x Oil. Multiplying the objective lens by the eyepiece, that'd give you 40x, 100x, 400x and 1000x total magnifications. Only the 100x Oil lens is used with a droplet of special oil on the slide to help sharpen the picture. That doesn't mean that you have to--merely that it will be a sharper image. Sometimes, that comes in handy
> 
> As far as how diagnostic it will be to take a smear and look for stuff, there might not be a lot to see at this point. I was thinking that it would be far more informative to know if you were looking at a lot of fungi than anything else although catching a trichomonad in the act would be nice, too, if that's what it was. The finding of a trichomonad does not mean that a bird has trichomoniasis (the disease) because most wild pigeons that I bring in as ferals do have trichomonads in abundance in their crops. By the same token, finding a budding yeast is not proof positive of candidiasis. It's all in how many you find per visual field on a slide that often becomes diagnostic.
> 
> I'm going to post some pages on Webshots so that you can print them out, save them to your computer or just read them. They will go into far more detail. Personally, even though I at first thought that this may be canker, I've slowly lost the conviction due to the fact that Kaju simply didn't respond to therapy in the way that we'd normally see from the Metronidazole. It's unlikely that your area would be the kind of place that saw a lot of resistant strains because you don't see the use of the stuff in pigeons over there like you do in, say, Belgium. That coupled with the fact that these birds have been isolated for pretty much their entire lives from other birds and sources of water just adds credence to that idea. While seven years old isn't exactly geriatric, it's approaching that for a bird of Kaju's type. We will occasionally see 30 years in domestic pigeons but that's by far not the norm and I don't think that ferals, even in captivity, often meet the longer lifespans of the well-cared-for domestics.
> 
> As to seeing bacteria with a microscope, if it's a really good one you can see them but only just. Usually, what you do to try and identify them at times various and sundry is by utilizing staining techniques. There is something to be determined on the shapes of the bacteria that you see based on where you got them from but I don't think it'll be that useful here. It would probably be more significant to the clinical picture if you saw a very great deal of them in the sample. They tend to look like tiny dots, small jelly beans, longer rods and even longer rods. There are some pictures of them in the pages of pictures that I posted on the links below. Here is a link to a picture that I took at 1000x with oil of a smear that's been Gram-stained:
> 
> 
> 
> Link to pages to read (click on the little picture):
> 
> 
> 
> On the vitamin A shot, the clinical dosage for pigeons is 33 KIU/kg, IM, QW. That means: 33,000 International Units per kilogram of bird, IntraMuscular (a shot in the muscle), Every Week. So, for Kaju, you'd be looking at NO MORE THAN 9,900 International Units at a time. Personally, I'd only give a fraction of that like half or so.
> 
> For antibiotics, why don't you see if you can find some Ciprofloxacin, or Keflex, or Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Bactrim, Cotrim, several other names). You don't need all of those--it would be nice if you could find one of them, though.
> 
> Pidgey



WOW THAT"S A LOT OF INTERESTING INFO!!! I am not a science student, these are all new stuffs for me...will read everything (hopefully I can get enough time) before I go for the test(if they at all are willing to take)...and I am sure I will have Lot of questions for later


Meanwhile...THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND HELP TO SAVE KAJU ...it took u quite some time to gather these infos...REALLY APPRECIATED!!!!


----------



## kajupakhi

pigeonperson said:


> Put one soft gel cod liver oil capsule and only one down. That will take care of the bird's Vitamin A requirements. Vitamin A can become toxic so only give the bird one capsule.
> Instead of aspirin which can cause acidosis in the wrong dose, get a hold of Metacam if possible and give one drop per day.
> Please continue with the Ronidazole. This bird has canker.
> The sticky saliva is indicative of two things, dehydration and the mixing of canker exudate with the saliva.
> If this bird pulls through, a surgery is required to clean out the canker deposits from the beak and soft tissue. Don't try to do anything yourself. There is a ligament band that runs from the base of the beak almost to the very tip and a good vet knows to be wary of severing it. If the canker severs the band, the beak will scissor.



Thanks for the infos on soft gel cod liver oil capsule and Metacam...good to know these stuffs, will see what I can do about these meds.

its sad if its canker deposits inside his mandibles, then I cannot do anything here to operate him ...Hope its something else instread


----------



## kajupakhi

jazaroo said:


> I thought I would make a quick post on vitamin A.
> 
> Our avian vet recommended Virgin Red Palm Oil for our Amazons as they sometimes suffer from lack of Vitamin A. We just add a little to their soft food a few times a week and they seem to actually enjoy the taste. Here is a link to some information on it http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm . I am sure it would be readily available in India and because of its alpha and beta carotene content it is quite safe with regards to toxicity problems.
> 
> I imagine you could could coat some seeds or lentils with the oil or even soak some small pieces of say corn bread in it. Do not use high heat on this oil, as it destroys its vitamin content.
> 
> Ron



Hi Ron,

Thanks a lot for your post to this thread and for the infos on Vit A...I am getting a lot of good and useful infos from you guys!!!

Kajupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Hello everybody,

I am getting a lot of great advices and help from a lot of Really experienced people here...THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR CONCERN....

I have a question for every one here and any one who has any opinion or experience in regards to the question is most welcome to write back...

*well the question is--- in case of canker, does the canker peel off like sheets of skin and then grow back again in the same place with the same size and shape even when the bird is getting dosages of flagyl or Ronidazole???
I mean that even if there are canker debris deposited underneath in the mandibles, my expectation is that after the meds are applied, atleast the yellow growth(canker itself...if that's the case) on the surface of the lower beak should be gone...is'nt it?? 
but in Kaju's case it peels off and grows back again...
I do not have much experience with canker birds, so please let me know if any one of u had similar experience with Canker birds.*

Moreover, he really has NEVER mixed with ferals or drank their water...so canker coming from there is impossible...but if stress can cause canker, then that's a possibility...we try to keep him happy, but u never know if he is stressed out for whatever reason.


Moreover...*SINCE I CAME HERE, he honestly NEVER BEHAVED LIKE A SICK BIRD...HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS BEAK BUSY EITHER PREENING HIMSELF OR PLAYING WITH HIS TOYS *, and if I remove his toys so that he can give his beak some rest...then he will find out some other thing to entertain himself and play with(the newspaper on the floor of his cage for example)...so he does not hesitate in using his beak, is active, energetic, playful, alert and interested in his surrounding and if I let him mingle with my other 2 birds, he will surely end up fighting or preening them ...*his behavior is nothing that I would expect from a very sick bird suffering from canker or any other major disease...THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THE WHOLE SITUATION!!! *


However, its also true that if it is canker depositions, then I am helpless as i cannot help him in any way...so I will probably deny the situation coz it will make me sad and I DO NOT WANT TO THINK NEGATIVELY NOW...I WANT TO STAY POSITIVE AND FIGHT FOR HIS LIFE...

KAjupakhi


----------



## feralpigeon

1. "Then it is about making sure that he gets 5-8% of his body weight tubed, syringed or crop-dropped. That's a range of between 30-60ml per day.
I would leave the medicated water out for him, just make sure that you give him the minimum of the range." quote from fp

** I'm pulling the stats above from Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for Veterinarians by Johnson-Delaney and Linda Harrison co-editor, Zoological Education Network,Florida; from the _pigeon section._ That figure is wider to compensate for geographic/climate differences.

2. Regarding the need to inititate Vit A defic. w/injections, here is a quote: 
"Initial treatment of vitamin A deficiency must be by injection due to decreased absorption of the vitamin from the intestinal tract."

The above quote is from this website:

http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreviewcve/article300.asp

Scroll down a ways to get to the Vitamin A deficiency. 

It also states this regarding symptoms and the feces produced:

The clinical signs of vitamin A deficiency include corneal cloudiness, a change in voice (due to metaplasia of the syringeal mucosa), dysphagia, swollen sinuses and voluminous and pasty faeces (due to maldigestion). 

David Tudor discusses mucous and a 'cheesy exudate' under the eyelids and swollen sinuses w/mucousy exudate there as well, in addition to ruffled feathers, weakness and lack of coordination.

Agnes Rupley's symptoms are pretty similar along with polyuria, polydypsia, anorexia and dyspnea. Rupley also recommends commencement of Treatment for Vitamin A deficiency to begin w/injections and switch to oral supplements once improvement has begun which is normally 2-3 weeks.

Just wanted to put the info in here in terms of clarification. I think your question kajupakhi is a good one, if the pij should have an injection without knowing in full certainty that there is a deficiency. My thoughts right now would be probably not. Sounds as though you will have further testing and I would wait until that has had a chance to occur. 

fp


----------



## Pidgey

feralpigeon said:


> 1. "Then it is about making sure that he gets 5-8% of his body weight tubed, syringed or crop-dropped. That's a range of between 30-60ml per day.
> I would leave the medicated water out for him, just make sure that you give him the minimum of the range." quote from fp
> 
> ** I'm pulling the stats above from Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for Veterinarians by Johnson-Delaney and Linda Harrison co-editor, Zoological Education Network,Florida; from the _pigeon section._ That figure is wider to compensate for geographic/climate differences.


Well, you are correct that the figures appear in the cited reference as both percentages and in milliliters for a bird weight range of 350 grams to 550 grams. They don't agree though between themselves. 30 milliliters is 8.57% of a 350 gram bird and 60 milliliters is 10.9% of a 550 gram bird. 60 milliliters is 20% of a 300 gram bird like Kaju and 30 milliliters is 10%.

When in the past I've given (tubed) pigeons with the higher dosages of water, what I've gotten was an awful lot of wet droppings. I'm not talking the 8% either, I mean something in the 30 to 60 milliliters for a 300 gram pigeon and other weights based on that. It works fine for a pigeon who's got polydipsia/polyuria for a medical reason and needs a lot of water to flush the kidneys.

I only choked on that, though, because if you're suggesting tubing a bird then the bird doesn't have a choice and it is possible to over-hydrate. Then all you're doing is putting another load on the bird. And I think I remember that the Ronidazole was being applied in the water so I was worrying about overmedicating as well. In this case, I think that Kaju has been self-watering and, as Kajupakhi has stated, isn't even acting ill.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> *well the question is--- in case of canker, does the canker peel off like sheets of skin and then grow back again in the same place with the same size and shape even when the bird is getting dosages of flagyl or Ronidazole???
> I mean that even if there are canker debris deposited underneath in the mandibles, my expectation is that after the meds are applied, atleast the yellow growth(canker itself...if that's the case) on the surface of the lower beak should be gone...is'nt it??
> but in Kaju's case it peels off and grows back again...
> I do not have much experience with canker birds, so please let me know if any one of u had similar experience with Canker birds.*
> 
> Moreover, he really has NEVER mixed with ferals or drank their water...so canker coming from there is impossible...but if stress can cause canker, then that's a possibility...we try to keep him happy, but u never know if he is stressed out for whatever reason.
> 
> 
> Moreover...*SINCE I CAME HERE, he honestly NEVER BEHAVED LIKE A SICK BIRD...HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS BEAK BUSY EITHER PREENING HIMSELF OR PLAYING WITH HIS TOYS *, and if I remove his toys so that he can give his beak some rest...then he will find out some other thing to entertain himself and play with(the newspaper on the floor of his cage for example)...so he does not hesitate in using his beak, is active, energetic, playful, alert and interested in his surrounding and if I let him mingle with my other 2 birds, he will surely end up fighting or preening them ...*his behavior is nothing that I would expect from a very sick bird suffering from canker or any other major disease...THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THE WHOLE SITUATION!!! *


That's nothing whatsoever like any presentation of canker that I have ever seen.

There is a difference between testing positive for trichomonads (the organism) and having the clinical disease, trichomoniasis (canker). In that instance, yes, stress can cause the progression from having the organism to getting the clinical disease. But if there never were trichomonads in the first place then stress cannot cause the clinical disease.

Behavior may not be noticeably affected in a bird that has a mild or localized case of any infection. The clinical disease form of canker is not typically a static disease (unchanging)--it's usually either progressing to the death of the bird or the bird goes downhill to a point and then the immune system kicks into high gear and clears it.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am getting a lot of great advices and help from a lot of Really experienced people here...THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR CONCERN....
> 
> I have a question for every one here and any one who has any opinion or experience in regards to the question is most welcome to write back...
> 
> *well the question is--- in case of canker, does the canker peel off like sheets of skin and then grow back again in the same place with the same size and shape even when the bird is getting dosages of flagyl or Ronidazole???
> I mean that even if there are canker debris deposited underneath in the mandibles, my expectation is that after the meds are applied, atleast the yellow growth(canker itself...if that's the case) on the surface of the lower beak should be gone...is'nt it??
> but in Kaju's case it peels off and grows back again...
> I do not have much experience with canker birds, so please let me know if any one of u had similar experience with Canker birds.*
> 
> Moreover, he really has NEVER mixed with ferals or drank their water...so canker coming from there is impossible...but if stress can cause canker, then that's a possibility...we try to keep him happy, but u never know if he is stressed out for whatever reason.
> 
> 
> Moreover...*SINCE I CAME HERE, he honestly NEVER BEHAVED LIKE A SICK BIRD...HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS BEAK BUSY EITHER PREENING HIMSELF OR PLAYING WITH HIS TOYS *, and if I remove his toys so that he can give his beak some rest...then he will find out some other thing to entertain himself and play with(the newspaper on the floor of his cage for example)...so he does not hesitate in using his beak, is active, energetic, playful, alert and interested in his surrounding and if I let him mingle with my other 2 birds, he will surely end up fighting or preening them ...*his behavior is nothing that I would expect from a very sick bird suffering from canker or any other major disease...THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THE WHOLE SITUATION!!! *
> 
> 
> However, its also true that if it is canker depositions, then I am helpless as i cannot help him in any way...so I will probably deny the situation coz it will make me sad and I DO NOT WANT TO THINK NEGATIVELY NOW...I WANT TO STAY POSITIVE AND FIGHT FOR HIS LIFE...
> 
> KAjupakhi



Canker can be a bit peculiar in that it doesn't necessarily fit into one convenient description or behavior. It's an invading organism that can be as
simple to detect and treat as looking into the bird's throat and giving a pill.
It can also get complicated especially when it's an internal form that is working behind the scenes. This past summer I worked w/a baby who had a hole in his crop where the canker had eaten away from the inside to the outside. This baby, in spite of the mortal presentation of the illness was
getting feistier and feistier just prior to surgery.

If you follow the thoughts that pigeonperson has expressed, then what you are seeing flaking off is the exudate and not the canker itself which has 'burroughed' and is deep under what the end result is--the lesion that we are looking at.

I hope that the folks that actually perform the tests are thorough and meticulous in their job performance, otherwise, the test could be run and
given a 'value' w/out necessarily being an accurate reflection of the health of the bird. I was about to walk out of the vet's office once w/a clean bill of health on worms, when the Doctor said not so fast.....the tech had missed
eggs in the sample.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

well I did the 2nd lab test for Kaju today and the report says...

*REPORT OF: THROAT SWAB

1) GRAM STAIN:GRAM NEGATIVE BACELLI(++)
YEAST CELL (BUDDING)(+)

2)WET MOUTH WITH LACTOPHENOL COTTON BLUE STAIN---A FEW YEAST CELLS WITH BUDDING FOUND*


The doc said that they did not find any trichomonads...did not use oil tests etc though and said that after searching for quite a while, they found some yeasts, not a lot of them...probably coz of antifungal.

The doc said that this lab does not test for animals so she does not know if having such yeasts are normal or not for birds...please let me know


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> 1. "Then it is about making sure that he gets 5-8% of his body weight tubed, syringed or crop-dropped. That's a range of between 30-60ml per day.
> I would leave the medicated water out for him, just make sure that you give him the minimum of the range." quote from fp
> 
> ** I'm pulling the stats above from Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for Veterinarians by Johnson-Delaney and Linda Harrison co-editor, Zoological Education Network,Florida; from the _pigeon section._ That figure is wider to compensate for geographic/climate differences.
> 
> 2. Regarding the need to inititate Vit A defic. w/injections, here is a quote:
> "Initial treatment of vitamin A deficiency must be by injection due to decreased absorption of the vitamin from the intestinal tract."
> 
> The above quote is from this website:
> 
> http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreviewcve/article300.asp
> 
> Scroll down a ways to get to the Vitamin A deficiency.
> 
> It also states this regarding symptoms and the feces produced:
> 
> The clinical signs of vitamin A deficiency include corneal cloudiness, a change in voice (due to metaplasia of the syringeal mucosa), dysphagia, swollen sinuses and voluminous and pasty faeces (due to maldigestion).
> 
> David Tudor discusses mucous and a 'cheesy exudate' under the eyelids and swollen sinuses w/mucousy exudate there as well, in addition to ruffled feathers, weakness and lack of coordination.
> 
> Agnes Rupley's symptoms are pretty similar along with polyuria, polydypsia, anorexia and dyspnea. Rupley also recommends commencement of Treatment for Vitamin A deficiency to begin w/injections and switch to oral supplements once improvement has begun which is normally 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Just wanted to put the info in here in terms of clarification. I think your question kajupakhi is a good one, if the pij should have an injection without knowing in full certainty that there is a deficiency. My thoughts right now would be probably not. Sounds as though you will have further testing and I would wait until that has had a chance to occur.
> 
> fp



Well there seems to be nothing wrong with Kaju's eyes or cornea that is similar to Vit A deficiency symptoms uptill now


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> That's nothing whatsoever like any presentation of canker that I have ever seen.
> 
> There is a difference between testing positive for trichomonads (the organism) and having the clinical disease, trichomoniasis (canker). In that instance, yes, stress can cause the progression from having the organism to getting the clinical disease. But if there never were trichomonads in the first place then stress cannot cause the clinical disease.
> 
> Behavior may not be noticeably affected in a bird that has a mild or localized case of any infection. The clinical disease form of canker is not typically a static disease (unchanging)--it's usually either progressing to the death of the bird or the bird goes downhill to a point and then the immune system kicks into high gear and clears it.
> 
> Pidgey




Thanks for your feedback...I forgot to mention that about 3 years back I got Kaju a mate from the market, a white dove(she is no longer with us for the past 2 years), so any germ coming from her is possible coz he did billing with her,


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Canker can be a bit peculiar in that it doesn't necessarily fit into one convenient description or behavior. It's an invading organism that can be as
> simple to detect and treat as looking into the bird's throat and giving a pill.
> It can also get complicated especially when it's an internal form that is working behind the scenes. This past summer I worked w/a baby who had a hole in his crop where the canker had eaten away from the inside to the outside. This baby, in spite of the mortal presentation of the illness was
> getting feistier and feistier just prior to surgery.
> 
> If you follow the thoughts that pigeonperson has expressed, then what you are seeing flaking off is the exudate and not the canker itself which has 'burroughed' and is deep under what the end result is--the lesion that we are looking at.
> 
> I hope that the folks that actually perform the tests are thorough and meticulous in their job performance, otherwise, the test could be run and
> given a 'value' w/out necessarily being an accurate reflection of the health of the bird. I was about to walk out of the vet's office once w/a clean bill of health on worms, when the Doctor said not so fast.....the tech had missed
> eggs in the sample.
> 
> fp


Thanks for your feedback, if this is the case, then things can get really ugly


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## Guest

If the bird has been on Ronidazole, trichomads may well not be present anymore.
fp,You are correct in saying that canker can slough off on the surface. Also, the Ronidazole is being given via drinking water so the drug is touching the surface of the infection and the alien tissue there is breaking apart.
There are trichomads present on the surface and just below it even though most of the colony is what we don't see. I'm sure that what is on the surface or just beneath it, is being killed off. What is on the surface is nowhere as dangerous as what is going on underneath and for that, the drug has to be kept at an efficacious level in the blood stream.
Surgery is not uncommon with canker and this is one case where it's necessary. Even if we are wrong and this is not canker, there is a lot of damage being done and a surgery would stop this continuing and destructive process. I recommend it because of where this mass is and what it is doing to destroy healthy beak tissue. 
I hope that if a decision is made to remove this very destructive mass, a vet who does it, knows to stay away from the ligament holding the beak in place. The best approach to avoid this kind of surgical damage is to make an incision on the underside of the mandible. Cutting the skin away from the edge of the beak is a no-no as it will not reattach so making the incision towards the center and away from that edge is the way to go.
Again, this mass is in a dangerous place. Even if it is not canker, whatever this is, it's causing a great deal of damage. Animals develop masses and surgery is done to remove those masses. This is not uncommon and because of where this one is, I think a surgery is overdue. A vet will determine if this bird is too weak for surgery or it is a go. This is one situation where medicine can only go so far.


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## Guest

Kajupakhi.
Yeast cells are ever present in the gut of all animals including us. That's normal. The question to be asked is; have the yeast cells risen to infectious levels? Because your pigeon is ill and on antibiotics, there is always a possibility that he can develop a full blown yeast infection. For that reason probiotics are important to give. They tend to crowd out the yeast cells.


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## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> well I did the 2nd lab test for Kaju today and the report says...
> 
> *REPORT OF: THROAT SWAB
> 
> 1) GRAM STAIN:GRAM NEGATIVE BACELLI(++)
> YEAST CELL (BUDDING)(+)
> 
> 2)WET MOUTH WITH LACTOPHENOL COTTON BLUE STAIN---A FEW YEAST CELLS WITH BUDDING FOUND*
> 
> 
> The doc said that they did not find any trichomonads...did not use oil tests etc though and said that after searching for quite a while, they found some yeasts, not a lot of them...probably coz of antifungal.
> 
> The doc said that this lab does not test for animals so she does not know if having such yeasts are normal or not for birds...please let me know


Okay, here's the fun part: the "(++)" and the "(+)" symbols usually denote interpretation based on criteria and criteria tend to be different based on the species checked as well as the nature of the sample. There is such a thing as THE RAW data. That would be something more in keeping with saying "20 budding yeasts per average visual field @ 100x" or something like that. Re-read those pages and you'll start seeing what I'm talking about. You may need to get back in touch with the lab to ask what the raw data is. AT LEAST, they didn't say anything about finding hyphae.

On that second lab notation, you said "Wet Mouth" when what you meant was "Wet Mount". Anyone reading that would almost think that they held the bird's mouth open and painted the inside with Lactophenol Cotton Blue Stain when in fact they took a swab, dobbed it on a slide and then prepared the slide with the appropriate staining technique used to show up yeasts.

"Oil tests" means that they didn't bother going to 1000x (the 100x Oil objective lens) to do any of the counting.

Even though I wouldn't want to, I'd interpret this interpretation to say that there's nothing horrible showing up. As for Gram-negative bacteria, not all Gram-negatives are bad but we'd rather see more Gram-positives in a fecal smear. In a throat swab, I'd probably figure the same thing and this is why we'd like to see you acquire an antibiotic like the ones listed earlier.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

To further clarify what (I think) pigeonperson is saying, birds sometimes encapsulate necrotic tissue which may later become a nidus of infection. This is because birds lack a proteinase necessary to liquify necrotic tissue. Sometimes, it becomes necessary to surgically remove such encapsulations. 

Now, in this case and taking pigeonperson's assertion, the problem then becomes is there, or isn't there such an artifact--an accumulation of debris that the body will not absorb. If it were canker, there might be an inclusion of spent leukocytes (immune cells) although the typical presentation is usually on the surface of tissues. In this case, it's the "where" that would be the problem--a thin covering of mucus membrane over the horn of the distal inside lower beak. Or, at least, that's where you're seeing the recurrent exfoliation of... stuff. 

In one, at least, of the pictures of Kaju, you can sort of see a bulge below Kaju's beak closer to the actual neck and perhaps pigeonperson is more concerned with that area in particular: 



...and thinking that that is where an excision of the offending material would need to be performed. Also, in that picture, you can see a yellowing around the upper left quadrant of the eyelid that may or may not be clinically significant. It might point to a localized flooding of the lymph system of immune debris from fighting a bacterial infection, or not. Is that still there?

Anyhow, this is where it really gets fun when a bunch of rehabbers swarm a problem and, especially when opinions differ and egos get involved, sometimes the person with the problem gets overwhelmed with different directions to follow. Personally, I sort of doubt that you have access to any competent surgical solution so I wasn't even considering that to be a possibility. Also, pigeonperson can read this post and make any adjustments or clarifications.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I'm going to add that even if you did find a good avian vet there, you'd also have the worry of the general anaesthetic used and that's a pretty big worry. Around here, it's common to use Forane (Isoflurane) because the anaesthetic plane (fancy terminology, eh?) is chemically achieved in such a way that 95% of the anaesthetic leaves the body back out the lungs in very short order (within minutes) instead of having to be metabolized by the liver, kidneys, what have you. The significance of that is that the patient stands an awful lot better chance of surviving the GENERAL ANAESTHETIC aspect of the surgery, never mind the tissue trauma of the surgery itself. Is that a significant factor? Oh, <Bleep!> yes it is... a LOT of birds have died due to aspiration (and other things) in coming out of surgeries especially before Forane. Even people, for that matter. So, if you consider that course, there are things that you'd want to ask the clinic/clinician beforehand to assure yourself that the bird stood a chance.

Pidgey


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## Guest

"Anyhow, this is where it really gets fun when a bunch of rehabbers swarm a problem and, especially when opinions differ and egos get involved, sometimes the person with the problem gets overwhelmed".

Pidgey, 
This thread will never deteriorate to the level of ego bashing. I didn't come here for the purpose of disagreeing with anyone. I only came on to offer my help as I've seen this particular condition many times. If you go to picture number 7, it can be seen where the organism punched through the tissue below the tongue. There is a yellowish area that shouldn't be there. It's very unfortunate that the growths were scraped off leaving one with the impression that all of a sudden and lo and behold, the beak is swollen.
We are all at a tremendous disadvantage in that none of us who reads this thread has the benefit of holding this bird in their hands. We are all at a disadvantage in that all we have to go on and say maybe it's this and maybe it's that plus the vet apparently never saw nor knows how to diagnose the condition, whatever this is. Medicines were given without a diagnosis and that's never a good thing. Maybe it's yeast so give an anti fungal. Maybe it's Vitamin A hypovitaminosis so give shots of Vitamin A. Maybe it's bacterial so give a broad spectrum. Maybe it's canker so give a canker killer. That is certainly not the way to treat any living creature but we are stuck in a situation that calls out for something to be done and the vet does not know what is going on. When it comes to pigeons, we seem to know more than the vets. 
But, you are right. This can become very confusing and overwhelm anyone. Again, The initial error was to scrape off the growths under the tongue and not test for trichomonads. This would have ended the discussion one way or another.
I don't have anything more to add to this thread so if I post more, as you say, it will tend to confuse an already confused person. I'm going with my experience and what I see in the pictures but granted, pictures can be deceiving. I've given this thread everything I've got and that's it.


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## Pidgey

pigeonperson,

Never mind the politics, now that we've got a good dialogue going, do you think that a determination could be made by palpating that area below the chin to try and verify the presence of a mass? She's got other birds to feel for comparison, after all. The way I see the problem (with all aspects involved, i.e. that we can't see the bird), is that there are two or three possible etiologies, each with similar enough symptoms that the gross appearance does not help with the differential. If it is septic stomatitis, like the first vet apparently diagnosed and began treatment for including the debriding, then local bacterial infection of the spot would/could cause disseminated (but still fairly local) edema due to the lymph system. However, I don't think that would present with a palpable, hardened mass where you're thinking. If, on the other hand, it's the result of canker and a true necrotic plug has formed that should be removed (never mind whether that's an available option at this point), will a hardened mass have formed that can be detectable by palpating the area under the chin?

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidgey,
We have to be in the same place with what is going on. Kajupakhi and I have been emailing back and forth off this board. I haven't told her anything that hasn't already been posted here. She is telling me that there is a lot of stuff coming off the top and she is cleaning it off. What does this mean? I'm not sure in the sense that I can't tell from her email where this stuff is coming from.
The only thing I can think of is that the beak has been pushed away from the covering skin and it's reached a point where the alien tissue is exuding through this separation. 
From the pictures, there is a mass in the beak. Comparison to other birds shows that immediately. There is something there. Palpating the beak would probably not work because we are dealing with hard bone. From a medical viewpoint, I wish I had the bird here to take a really good look and have an American board certified avian vet take a look. From a humanistic viewpoint, this bird must be in a lot of pain from the infection and from the pressure it's creating.
If this mass is also growing down as well as up and out, the chin is swelling up too. It should be palpable there. There is no telling where this mass will go. About 6 months ago, somebody brought me a young bird. There was canker in the left side of the throat. It actually punched a hole through and wended its way up and under the right lower beak. The right side of the mandible was swelled and so was the chin. It never fails to amaze me to see how canker tracks. It can go anywhere. The bird is fine now.
I just want to say that the board is very fortunate to have you here. You are raising the bar in heightened awareness of what can go wrong, how complex it can be and how to treat. This stuff isn't easy.


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Pigeonperson

I rehabilitate birds but never "wing" it because I have a local vet who works closely with me and has taught me many things. She now trusts me to treat certain things that I am familiar with and anytime I come across something I'm not familiar with she is only a phone call or visit away.

However, that is not the case with so many people who come to this site. Most people are caring enough to want to help save a pigeon but simply don't know how. Often, they may be in remote areas of the US or in other countries. We all try to help based on what knowledge we have acquired.

Personally, I am very grateful for you coming on and lending your advice, knowledge and experience and hope that you will continue to do so. Sometimes, we may not all agree with a set diagnosis or procedure but the key thing is that everyone is trying to help. I wish more emphasis were placed (by vets) on treating avian patients but they usually take a back seat to dogs and cats and pigeons usually come in last. To me, that is why a site like this is so valuable and I believe many pigeons have been saved because of it.

Feralpigeon explained to us that you are an experienced rehabber and we can certainly use your help so I do hope you'll continue to help in any way you can.


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## Guest

Thanks Lady Tarheel,
It's just plain wrong to try and make a diagnosis over the web yet, we seem to get sucked into it because we want to help. There are so many variables with any particular illness or injury and the person asking for help may not notice or think that it's important to post them all. It's vitally important. There can be more than one thing wrong and we would never know it. You could get a bird in with a broken leg and two days later, the bird dies on you and you're left guessing at how a broken leg can kill a bird. It can't but there was something else going on so lab tests are very important. Not all of us can spend the money for these tests so we're stuck guessing and as experienced as we think we may be, we are still guessing. 
I'll try to pipe in now and then but no guarantee I'll be right. Thanks again.


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## Skyeking

Thank you pigeonperson, and welcome to Pigeon Talk. We appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with us.


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## Victor

I too want to welcome you here _pigeonperson_. I have been following this thread, and in my mind welcomed you, another experienced person with good input, but was also concerned with the foremost objective and that is the positive end result of our pigeon in need of help here, Kaju.The board appreciates experienced caring people like you. You are a good addition to pigeon talk, and agree 100% that it is sometimes difficult to treat a bird in distress over the internet, but more often the end result is positive.That if course is important here. It is great to have you with us. I am not a rehabber but have learned much from several "mentors" on this site, and am looking forward to learning even more.


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## Guest

Trees Gray and Victor,
Thanks for the welcome.


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## Pidgey

Well, after going over all this latest six ways from Sunday, I'd wonder as a consensus if we intend to: 

1) Maintain the Ronidazole for the near future;

2) Maintain the Betadine topical (don't think that there's a conflict);

3) Acquire and begin treatment with an antibiotic (we don't know if she's found one yet);

4) Determine whether a surgical option is available and viable;

5) Get Kajupakhi to at least try and compare feeling the underside of the chin between the two mandibles to see if a discernible lump is present, for what that's worth. I did a skull side view with numbers on it that we can reference to help explain where we think what is going on (click on the little pictures--they're links to larger ones):








6) Maintain painting the area with and flushing down some Nystatin (again, no conflict with the other treatments);

7) Determine if a vitamin A shot is even available and a viable option;

(trying to think of anything else, posting in the mean time)

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Well Pidgey, I think you have laid it out pretty well. The comments I would make are that I think continuing with the Ronidazole (I am wrong or like Flagyl would this also work on anaerobic bacteria as well as an added benefit), and adding a broad spectrum antibiotic would seem like a wise course of action. Bacteria love to harbour in necrotic areas and play chronic havoc on a body, best to clear things out with antibiotic, preferably one with very good penetration, especially if the option of surgery on Kaju is not a viable one, for reasons set out prior.

I also think that getting Kajupakhi to at least try and compare feeling the underside of the chin between the two mandibles to see if a discernible lump is present is a good idea. This way at least it will be known if there is a mass present there. Then decide whether it is a necrotic plug or an encapsulation of some kind. This may be tricky getting a true lay person to make this call, but with some help and comparison to her other birds, I think it's possible to do.

I agree that the Nystatin is not in conflict and may be of other benefit if antibiotics are started, with regards to any possible yeast infection occurring. I must say I am a little nervous about any Vitamin A shot, such micro amounts are required and if someone gets the math or the concentration wrong, this would not be very good for Kaju.

Finally for now, I also would like to welcome pigeonperson to this board. We can always use the help of experienced people. I sometimes share your concerns about the limitations of the Internet. I will say though, at times this board and the people here are all some sick birds have as a chance of getting well again and I know for a fact there are many birds alive right now because of both.

All the best,

Ron


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## Pidgey

Kajupakhi was asking me about the Ronidazole (sanity check, I think) so I had her get the info off the bottle:

PRISCRIPTION ANIMAL REMEDY
VETAFARM
RINOVET-S
canker treatment for caged birds
active constituent:60mg/g Ronidazol
for the treatment of canker(Trichomoniasis)
100 g Net

DIRECTIONS FOR USE 
not to be used for birds producing meat or eggs for human consumption
DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION:
mix 4g in 4l of drinking water
Fancy pigeons and other avian species: treat for 7 days 4 times per year
Pigeons: Racing season-treat for 7 days every other week
Pigeons: Breeding season- treat parents for 7 days prior to joining then medicate for 7 to 21 days
when young birds hatch.Mix fresh solution daily.Remove all other sources of water. LEVEL MEASURE ENCLOSED = 3.8g.

At 60 milligrams per gram and mixing 4 grams per liter, that makes 240 milligrams per liter. In my biggest, newest formulary, it shows to give 10 mg/kg, PO, NL. That's 10 milligrams per kilogram of bird, Orally, Not Listed (but probably per day--they all are and there are several).

Ergo, if we assume 10 mg/kg for a 300 gram bird, we've got a 3 milligram dose by the formulary. 

Assuming a 5% water consumption, we've got 15 milliliters per day. 15/1000*240=3.6 milligrams. 

Assuming an 8% water consumption, we've got 24 milliliters per day. 24/1000*240=5.76 milligrams.

So, I'd say the instructions jibe somewhat with the formulary. There are many other dosage rates listed from as low as 40 milligrams per liter to as much as 200 milligrams per liter. There's not much commentary to pick which one but the 5% weight basis for the instructions on the package is pretty much the top end of what I see in this one. That's about all I'd give in a day if it were me.

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Hello every body,

WOW I feel so glad to see so many people involved in this situation and with so much passion and I know that all of you care and want Kaju to get well.

I am FEELING REALLY SCARED AND CONFUSED NOW!!!!
I have shown 3 doctors to Kaju in India so far, and each one is denying that its canker...so forget about them doing surgery for canker or anything else, they would have done it for cats or dogs but I do not think that they would do that for birds...  I think that surgery will take away the few months that he might have left...


His mouth looked little drier yesterday, but today again I see sticky saliva 

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

pigeonperson said:


> If the bird has been on Ronidazole, trichomads may well not be present anymore.
> fp,You are correct in saying that canker can slough off on the surface. Also, the Ronidazole is being given via drinking water so the drug is touching the surface of the infection and the alien tissue there is breaking apart.
> There are trichomads present on the surface and just below it even though most of the colony is what we don't see. I'm sure that what is on the surface or just beneath it, is being killed off. What is on the surface is nowhere as dangerous as what is going on underneath and for that, the drug has to be kept at an efficacious level in the blood stream.
> Surgery is not uncommon with canker and this is one case where it's necessary. Even if we are wrong and this is not canker, there is a lot of damage being done and a surgery would stop this continuing and destructive process. I recommend it because of where this mass is and what it is doing to destroy healthy beak tissue.
> I hope that if a decision is made to remove this very destructive mass, a vet who does it, knows to stay away from the ligament holding the beak in place. The best approach to avoid this kind of surgical damage is to make an incision on the underside of the mandible. Cutting the skin away from the edge of the beak is a no-no as it will not reattach so making the incision towards the center and away from that edge is the way to go.
> Again, this mass is in a dangerous place. Even if it is not canker, whatever this is, it's causing a great deal of damage. Animals develop masses and surgery is done to remove those masses. This is not uncommon and because of where this one is, I think a surgery is overdue. A vet will determine if this bird is too weak for surgery or it is a go. This is one situation where medicine can only go so far.





Thanks a lot for your input and contribution to this thread...really appreciate your concern.
well I do not think that surgery is wise option in Kaju's situation... I honestly do not know of any vet here who is that expert in treating or operating birds!!!
I did recive your mail where u said that I have nothing to loose if I get the surgery done coz he will die soon...but Kaju HAS A LOT TO LOOSE coz if he has a few more days/ months left, then I want him to enjoy it(as of now he is enjoying himself inspite of his beak problem) coz I am pretty sure that the surgery will kill him

However I really appreciate your concern for Kaju


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Okay, here's the fun part: the "(++)" and the "(+)" symbols usually denote interpretation based on criteria and criteria tend to be different based on the species checked as well as the nature of the sample. There is such a thing as THE RAW data. That would be something more in keeping with saying "20 budding yeasts per average visual field @ 100x" or something like that. Re-read those pages and you'll start seeing what I'm talking about. You may need to get back in touch with the lab to ask what the raw data is. AT LEAST, they didn't say anything about finding hyphae.
> 
> On that second lab notation, you said "Wet Mouth" when what you meant was "Wet Mount". Anyone reading that would almost think that they held the bird's mouth open and painted the inside with Lactophenol Cotton Blue Stain when in fact they took a swab, dobbed it on a slide and then prepared the slide with the appropriate staining technique used to show up yeasts.
> 
> "Oil tests" means that they didn't bother going to 1000x (the 100x Oil objective lens) to do any of the counting.
> 
> Even though I wouldn't want to, I'd interpret this interpretation to say that there's nothing horrible showing up. As for Gram-negative bacteria, not all Gram-negatives are bad but we'd rather see more Gram-positives in a fecal smear. In a throat swab, I'd probably figure the same thing and this is why we'd like to see you acquire an antibiotic like the ones listed earlier.
> 
> Pidgey




oops!!! sorry about the mount/mouth mistake...and I will get that info from the lab


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## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> I too want to welcome you here _pigeonperson_. I have been following this thread, and in my mind welcomed you, another experienced person with good input, but was also concerned with the foremost objective and that is the positive end result of our pigeon in need of help here, Kaju.The board appreciates experienced caring people like you. You are a good addition to pigeon talk, and agree 100% that it is sometimes difficult to treat a bird in distress over the internet, but more often the end result is positive.That if course is important here. It is great to have you with us. I am not a rehabber but have learned much from several "mentors" on this site, and am looking forward to learning even more.


Hi Victor,

Thabks a lot for your post here...all your encouraging words always adds a little extra something and makes me strong emotionally so I can deal with this situation inspite of all the problems that myself and Kaju will have to face...

Your experience with Tooter (the day he left)where u had to leave for work even when u were wondering if he was being torn away by a hawk had a *VERY VERY DEEP IMPACT ON MY MIND*...it makes me feel strong, and I know that I will think of what you and Tooter went through on the day I fly back to US again...that will give me some strength...honestly I feel really helpless unable to do anything
for him


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, after going over all this latest six ways from Sunday, I'd wonder as a consensus if we intend to:
> 
> 1) Maintain the Ronidazole for the near future;
> 
> 2) Maintain the Betadine topical (don't think that there's a conflict);
> 
> 3) Acquire and begin treatment with an antibiotic (we don't know if she's found one yet);
> 
> 4) Determine whether a surgical option is available and viable;
> 
> 5) Get Kajupakhi to at least try and compare feeling the underside of the chin between the two mandibles to see if a discernible lump is present, for what that's worth. I did a skull side view with numbers on it that we can reference to help explain where we think what is going on (click on the little pictures--they're links to larger ones):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6) Maintain painting the area with and flushing down some Nystatin (again, no conflict with the other treatments);
> 
> 7) Determine if a vitamin A shot is even available and a viable option;
> 
> (trying to think of anything else, posting in the mean time)
> 
> Pidgey




wow that was a really well organised post... U DID A GREAT JOB WITH THE IMAGES!!!well I will see what I can get for antibiotics today...will let u know in the evening.


well the swelling is from point 2 to 3, and the beak itself in that area seems to have swollen...there is a little lump that I can feel inside the skin just under point 2, but there is no other lump anywhere else surrounding or on the mandibles(not on the sides, nor near the throat...i compared with my other birds). however the molt near the corner of the eye that u see in the pic is still there...there are feathers growing everywhere else, but not there.


----------



## kajupakhi

jazaroo said:


> Well Pidgey, I think you have laid it out pretty well. The comments I would make are that I think continuing with the Ronidazole (I am wrong or like Flagyl would this also work on anaerobic bacteria as well as an added benefit), and adding a broad spectrum antibiotic would seem like a wise course of action. Bacteria love to harbour in necrotic areas and play chronic havoc on a body, best to clear things out with antibiotic, preferably one with very good penetration, especially if the option of surgery on Kaju is not a viable one, for reasons set out prior.
> 
> I also think that getting Kajupakhi to at least try and compare feeling the underside of the chin between the two mandibles to see if a discernible lump is present is a good idea. This way at least it will be known if there is a mass present there. Then decide whether it is a necrotic plug or an encapsulation of some kind. This may be tricky getting a true lay person to make this call, but with some help and comparison to her other birds, I think it's possible to do.
> 
> I agree that the Nystatin is not in conflict and may be of other benefit if antibiotics are started, with regards to any possible yeast infection occurring. I must say I am a little nervous about any Vitamin A shot, such micro amounts are required and if someone gets the math or the concentration wrong, this would not be very good for Kaju.
> 
> Finally for now, I also would like to welcome pigeonperson to this board. We can always use the help of experienced people. I sometimes share your concerns about the limitations of the Internet. I will say though, at times this board and the people here are all some sick birds have as a chance of getting well again and I know for a fact there are many birds alive right now because of both.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Ron



Thanks Ron for your post and contribution to save Kaju...really appreciated.

Well Kaju is on Ronnidazole, will see what i can do about the antibiotics and I have compared Kaju's mandibles with my other 2 to see if i can find lump...well there were more swelling of the beak itself rather than lump...although I did find a very small one just inside the skin in point 2 from Pidgey's image...


----------



## Pidgey

Those pictures of a real pigeon lower jaw illustrate that there is a middle section between the two main spars running out to the tip. This jaw has been cleaned off by Dermestid beetles (I keep a colony now) and I guess they even take the keratin (fingernail-like) material off the beak. I'm looking into the possibility that whatever the infection is or was, it may have affected the salivary glands. I'm just not sure where they are on a pigeon. I'll see what I can find.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Okay, well, it looks like the area that is affected in the forefront of the lower beak is the (better sit down for this): rostral mandibular salivary glands and the lingual salivary glands. As a matter of fact, the hypovitaminosis theory is still in play here as it seems to affect all of the salivary glands, kinda' shutting them down. If it was just the one in front, you wouldn't see such a dry mouth, I'd think. Essentially, there are several salivary glands, some on the roof of the mouth as well. 

This really could be a very complicated etiology. It could be a real, true, combo that it might take all of the medications (including the shot) to fix and it could also be a deal where it may never quite be fixed and just require management.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Kajupakhi was asking me about the Ronidazole (sanity check, I think) so I had her get the info off the bottle:
> 
> PRISCRIPTION ANIMAL REMEDY
> VETAFARM
> RINOVET-S
> canker treatment for caged birds
> active constituent:60mg/g Ronidazol
> for the treatment of canker(Trichomoniasis)
> 100 g Net
> 
> DIRECTIONS FOR USE
> not to be used for birds producing meat or eggs for human consumption
> DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION:
> mix 4g in 4l of drinking water
> Fancy pigeons and other avian species: treat for 7 days 4 times per year
> Pigeons: Racing season-treat for 7 days every other week
> Pigeons: Breeding season- treat parents for 7 days prior to joining then medicate for 7 to 21 days
> when young birds hatch.Mix fresh solution daily.Remove all other sources of water. LEVEL MEASURE ENCLOSED = 3.8g.
> 
> At 60 milligrams per gram and mixing 4 grams per liter, that makes 240 milligrams per liter. In my biggest, newest formulary, it shows to give 10 mg/kg, PO, NL. That's 10 milligrams per kilogram of bird, Orally, Not Listed (but probably per day--they all are and there are several).
> 
> Ergo, if we assume 10 mg/kg for a 300 gram bird, we've got a 3 milligram dose by the formulary.
> 
> Assuming a 5% water consumption, we've got 15 milliliters per day. 15/1000*240=3.6 milligrams.
> 
> Assuming an 8% water consumption, we've got 24 milliliters per day. 24/1000*240=5.76 milligrams.
> 
> So, I'd say the instructions jibe somewhat with the formulary. There are many other dosage rates listed from as low as 40 milligrams per liter to as much as 200 milligrams per liter. There's not much commentary to pick which one but the 5% weight basis for the instructions on the package is pretty much the top end of what I see in this one. That's about all I'd give in a day if it were me.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks for the dosage info...also please mention for how many days will I keep giving it?????


----------



## Pidgey

How many days have you been giving it and then the Flagyl before it at this point? It's highly unlikely that any trichomonads are left at this point. We might give it another week at the most but let's see what the answer is for how long you've been giving it so far.

Your PM storage is maxxed out, kid--clean it out.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

I am so happy to see the participation and effort to save kaju on this site...THANK YOU ALL!!!

Meanwhile, another big problem with Kaju is how/who will be the best person to feed him in my absence...I belive that the sticky saliva and white depositions were there for some months before I came here, although the swelling of mandibles and peeling off of stuffs started after the scrapping off by the doc and the meds that followed...so I think that if he gets the proper amount of food that he needs, then he will still have some more months to enjoy life...SO I HAVE BEEN IN SEARCH FOR THE RIGHT PERSON TO FEED HIM...

Now we have a house in the countryside about an hour from the city where my parents spend the holidays and weekends. The daughter of the gatekeeper of that house is a young girl who loves and has raised some orphan birds, so she is a bird person and whenever my parents stay in that house, she takes care of my birds and gives them meds etc...mom says that the birds love her too coz she is petite just like me and my sis(she is kaju's 2nd mom, but she too had to leave country for work), so Kaju probably identifies her with us and is more comfortable with her ...so for the next one month I will stay in that house and will train her to feed and take care of kaju(HOPE THIS WORKS OUT...ELSE I don't know...).If this works out then my parents will move in there permenantly.

Now that house does not have internet connection, although I will get one soon there, but meanwhile I won't be available every day as I am doing now...I will however go to some cafe every now and then to give u guys updates...meanwhile, if there is something else that comes to anybody's mind before I leave, let me know...


Yes, I can get the antibiotics here...I just have to know about the power needed and then buy. as far as Vit A shots are concerned I still have to look.

Also this afternoon I became positive of something that I wanted to tell u...
Also I wanted to inform u that today in the afternoon kaju once again peeled off some of those yellow skin, uptill now I have usually let them dry before touching them and on touching they felt like dead tissues...but today as soon as they came off, I took them between the nails of my 2 thumbs and pressed with my nails to see for sure if it is skin/membrane or something else and I noticed that it crumbled off like chedder cheese or something similar...so I think that it could be fungus, food deposits, canker(although I doubt)...but definitely not skin...just wanted to let u know about my discovery...i did that once before but was not sure about it as I am now coz this time I got more of those mass to experiment with...


----------



## Pidgey

Also, as to your question about Cipro, can you find out the specifics on the liquid? They usually come in pills that are shaped like capsules but are still the hard stuff. You have to grind them up to powder and then give that way. I'm not familiar with using those in particular and they're probably going to come in a 250-500-750 milligram sizing range. I think the dosage is similar to Baytril which is 5 to 20 milligrams per kilogram of bird, Orally, Twice Daily. The old dosage was 15 mg/kg, PO, BID. In the case of a 300 milligram bird, you'd be looking at 4.5 milligrams on the old dose, 1.5 to 6 milligrams using the new. Without a scale, that's not so easy to separate out but Jaz and some of the others do it in other ways--they'll need to get on here and strategize that one. If the liquid is more usable, then that might be the way to go but you're going to have to get some info on that one. We'd probably keep the antibiotic up for 5 to 10 days.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

It occurs to me that there may be more to the liquid--if it's in an alcohol base, we might not want to give it to the bird unless it's highly diluted. So, ask the pharmacist what the strength, volume and composition is (if there's any alcohol in it) for safety.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> It occurs to me that there may be more to the liquid--if it's in an alcohol base, we might not want to give it to the bird unless it's highly diluted. So, ask the pharmacist what the strength, volume and composition is (if there's any alcohol in it) for safety.
> 
> Pidgey


well the liquid is to the power 250, and it read on the cover that it causes muscle weakness in animals, so should not be given to children...asked the pharmacist , but they did not know much and told that I need to talk to the doc to get any infos


----------



## Pidgey

kajupakhi said:


> well the liquid is to the power 250, and it read on the cover that it *causes muscle weakness in animals, so should not be given to children*...asked the pharmacist , but they did not know much and told that I need to talk to the doc to get any infos


You're saying that children are animals? 

Sorry, couldn't resist. It shouldn't be given to any child or young animal because it affects growing bones. That's why Unie is so small--I had to give it to her to save her life at one point while she was still growing.

Anyhow, it's not a problem with full-grown birds and we use it all the time. Okay, never mind the liquid--just get a few of the smallest pills.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

:


Pidgey said:


> You're saying that children are animals?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist. It shouldn't be given to any child or young animal because it affects growing bones. That's why Unie is so small--I had to give it to her to save her life at one point while she was still growing.
> 
> Anyhow, it's not a problem with full-grown birds and we use it all the time. Okay, never mind the liquid--just get a few of the smallest pills.
> 
> Pidgey


   so its fine with older birds... I was thinking that if it cannot be given to birds then definitely not to be given to animals as well


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> How many days have you been giving it and then the Flagyl before it at this point? It's highly unlikely that any trichomonads are left at this point. We might give it another week at the most but let's see what the answer is for how long you've been giving it so far.
> 
> Your PM storage is maxxed out, kid--clean it out.
> 
> Pidgey


Well I started giving Ronnidazole from about 3rd of jan(I think) , but then kaju used to self drink, but I started to put water through syringe from yesterday...I started giving flagyl from 23/24th Dec I think and continued fro 8 days...


----------



## jazaroo

Pidgey, for me, I just grind up a 500 mg tablet and then add it to a syrup mixture. I mostly use corn syrup and water mixed to a consistency to nicely suspend the Cipro when shaken to draw a dose. The standard vet concentration for Baytril, at least from my vet, is 20 mg of med (pure Baytril) to 1 cc. So I just add the ground up 500 mg to 25 mL of syrup to come up with this concentration. My vet advises 1/2 cc (10 mg) twice a day and this is what I usually give to an adult Pigeon, and then make adjustments as needed for weight factors if necessary. This should be keep refrigerated once mixed up and always well shaken before drawing out a dose.

I hope this helps,

Ron


----------



## kajupakhi

jazaroo said:


> Pidgey, for me, I just grind up a 500 mg tablet and then add it to a syrup mixture. I mostly use corn syrup and water mixed to a consistency to nicely suspend the Cipro when shaken to draw a dose. The standard vet concentration for Baytril, at least from my vet, is 20 mg of med (pure Baytril) to 1 cc. So I just add the ground up 500 mg to 25 mL of syrup to come up with this concentration. My vet advises 1/2 cc (10 mg) twice a day and this is what I usually give to an adult Pigeon, and then make adjustments as needed for weight factors if necessary. This should be keep refrigerated once mixed up and always well shaken before drawing out a dose.
> 
> I hope this helps,
> 
> Ron



what if I mix put a 500 mg pill with 25 ml plain water, (*no corn syrup...hard to find here*) and then give 0.5 ml twice a day...is that good?

question-- Kaju is 300 gm, so how much should I adjust?
Just water and no corn syrup is fine or not?
for how many days should I do this?

Thanks a lot for all your help and info...


----------



## Pidgey

The corn syrup helps suspend the particles that may want to float to the bottom. You can also take sugar, heat the water up before you start and put in enough sugar to make it start getting like syrup. Then, when it cools down, you can use that instead of syrup.

You can easily adjust by giving him 0.3 milliliters twice a day. That's in direct proportion.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, yeah--let's start with doing it for seven (7) days.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> The corn syrup helps suspend the particles that may want to float to the bottom. You can also take sugar, heat the water up before you start and put in enough sugar to make it start getting like syrup. Then, when it cools down, you can use that instead of syrup.
> 
> You can easily adjust by giving him 0.3 milliliters twice a day. That's in direct proportion.
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks!!!! so I will get the 500 mg ones...


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Oh, yeah--let's start with doing it for seven (7) days.
> 
> Pidgey



ok...I will


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## jazaroo

Pidgey, I used to make up a sugar based syrup by heating sugar and water up as you described, still do in a pinch for individual doses. However, what I found was that the sugar would start to crystallize out in a few days and make the suspension unshakable, necessitating either the reheating, didn't want to do this as I was unsure how the heat would effect the med, or by adding some additional water throwing off the med calculations. I have two other suggestions though, since India had, and still has, strong UK connections perhaps this syrup is available http://www.farawayfoods.com/goldensyrup.html , if not I would use honey. The only thing with using honey is you will need just a small amount of water to make a suspension using it as water breaks down its viscosity very quickly.

With either, mix up the syrup first, then when you are happy with the viscosity draw off the 25 mL and then add the med, stirring in well for a few minutes to help dissolve it into the liquid.

For dosing Pidgey's your man.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

That dose (0.3 ml) for that concentration is at the maximum (20 mg/kg, PO, BID) for this bird. Really and truthfully, we could even back down from there to 0.2 or even 0.1. That would give us 13.33 mg/kg and 6.66 mg/kg respectively, which are both within the dose rate span (5 to 20 mg/kg). The question then becomes, "what dose is required for the illness" which I have no clue. I'd probably shoot for the middle one.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Well, based on what Jaz is saying about the sugar water, Kajupakhi, you might want to break a pill in half and then only make a half of the mix at a time if sugar is the only way you can get it to work. That way you can throw it away if it gets too bad after a few days and just make a new batch. Unless, of course, you manage to only get one or two pills--then we'd want to do it in whatever way we could make it last the longest.

Something else I was thinking about--if Kaju's been this way for quite awhile before you came home, it's probable that he figured out how to eat with that buildup in the front of the beak and it didn't hurt too much. When the first vet debrided it down to the somewhat raw flesh in the bottom trough of the beak, that probably made it pretty uncomfortable to pick up a seed. That's probably why he quit eating. I don't know if you can get Anbesol (google it) there but if you could you might give it a try for temporary relief.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, based on what Jaz is saying about the sugar water, Kajupakhi, you might want to break a pill in half and then only make a half of the mix at a time if sugar is the only way you can get it to work. That way you can throw it away if it gets too bad after a few days and just make a new batch. Unless, of course, you manage to only get one or two pills--then we'd want to do it in whatever way we could make it last the longest.
> 
> Something else I was thinking about--if Kaju's been this way for quite awhile before you came home, it's probable that he figured out how to eat with that buildup in the front of the beak and it didn't hurt too much. When the first vet debrided it down to the somewhat raw flesh in the bottom trough of the beak, that probably made it pretty uncomfortable to pick up a seed. That's probably why he quit eating. I don't know if you can get Anbesol (google it) there but if you could you might give it a try for temporary relief.
> 
> Pidgey



I me and my mom think that he had somehow figured out how to eat(coz he never really lost weight to the extend that would catch my mom's notice)...although I noticed that often he could not eat for one day, then he would eat some the next day...so he probably also starved often and would/could only eat when there were no sticky saliva...
though the scrapping made it worse 
Will see about Anbesol


----------



## kajupakhi

Thanks Ron and Pidgey for the antibiotics info...I will look around today to see if I can find some corn syrup, else I will surely find honey here


----------



## kajupakhi

Kaju updates---

I started with Cipro today, seems like I will have to wait about a week to get
the Vitamin shot(Doc is out of town)...otherwise everything else is just the same.


----------



## kajupakhi

*I DON'T BELIVE THIS!!!* ...U see, I did not want to wait for another week for the Vit A shot, so I took him to 2 other vets today and each said that they won't give a bird any such shot, its too risky and can lead to a lot of complications and pain and kill the bird...both of them said that they have done it for cats
and dogs but NEVER FOR BIRDS and the docs or their assistants are not trained for that and so wont take the risk!!!

Meanwhile everything else is the same except that Kaju ate a little bit dinner on his own pretty well 

Well from tomorrow for the next 1 month, I will be living in my country-side house to train Kaju's future nanny ...*I DESPERATELY HOPE SHE IS ABLE TO GIVE KAJU WHAT HE NEEDS WHEN I AM GONE!! *Anyway, there is no internet connection there so I will not be able to post as regularly as I am doing now.
However every now and then I will try to keep u guys updated on his situation coz I know that a lot of u care and are worried about him.


----------



## kajupakhi

kaju updates--

well the cipro seems to be working well. The bleeding has stopped and there seems to be less sticky saliva. Kaju can eat fairly well since yesterday. 
As for the Vitamin A shots, I still could not get things to work out coz the vets here always give oral medicines in such case and I could not find anyone who would give shots. I think that the thought of doing it for a bird is scaring them off, they would be fine with dogs, but have never done this for birds. Moreover anything like a 5000 kiu shot is unavailable in the market.

I figured out that the only vet who has probably treated enough birds in this city would be the vets at the zoo and so I went there yesterday to see if he can help, but he was way too busy and told me to come next week if he can manage some time 

I am still giving him the Tone-E- Bird for Vitamins though...
Meanwhile can you guys give me list of all natural vegitables and fruits that I can give him for vitamins while I am on a look out for it.

Thanks 
Kajupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

Leafy greens and yellow vegetables are pretty high in vitamin A. Carrots, for instance. You'd probably need to take a carrot and make little pieces out of small piece on a daily basis. I'll go see if I can find something that ties how much vitamin A is in a carrot on a per-gram basis.

As the Cipro is working (or whatever is) keep feeling underneath the chin to see if the lump is getting smaller.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Leafy greens and yellow vegetables are pretty high in vitamin A. Carrots, for instance. You'd probably need to take a carrot and make little pieces out of small piece on a daily basis. I'll go see if I can find something that ties how much vitamin A is in a carrot on a per-gram basis.
> 
> As the Cipro is working (or whatever is) keep feeling underneath the chin to see if the lump is getting smaller.
> 
> Pidgey


Good to know about carrots...actually i knew about that how about spinatch??????????? 
well if its not my imagination...seems like the swelling and lump is little less than what it used to be...but i cannot tell u for sure coz its too little a change, if there is any at all


----------



## Pidgey

Here's a webpage that shows the vitamin contents for various foods in various forms (raw, cooked) and it's for 100 gram samples:

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2f.shtml

So, for instance, you can see that one hundred grams of raw carrots equal about 28,000 I.U. of vitamin A. If you'll remember, pigeons' requirements for vitamin A per day was in the 200 I.U. per kilogram of bird per day. So, one gram of carrots would be about 280 I.U. or about four times what Kaju would need in a day.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Here's a webpage that shows the vitamin contents for various foods in various forms (raw, cooked) and it's for 100 gram samples:
> 
> http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2f.shtml
> 
> So, for instance, you can see that one hundred grams of raw carrots equal about 28,000 I.U. of vitamin A. If you'll remember, pigeons' requirements for vitamin A per day was in the 200 I.U. per kilogram of bird per day. So, one gram of carrots would be about 280 I.U. or about four times what Kaju would need in a day.
> 
> Pidgey


thanks...very useful info


----------



## Pidgey

There was a webpage referenced earlier by fp that also had a chart. It showed a value of 10,000 I.U. for 100 grams of pureed carrots. Now, I don't know what pureeing would do (if anything) but I'd expect that vegetables vary a bit and maybe it is that you could see a 3 to 1 variance in actual vitamin content. Anyhow, you could feed some pretty safely, just don't overdo it. I'd guess pieces from a carrot that total about a quarter to a half of a cubic centimeter would be in the ballpark.

Pidgey


----------



## Lovebirds

http://www.racingbirds.com/remedies.html
here's a good web site about different things you can do for your birds. This guy gives his birds juice in their water.


----------



## kajupakhi

Kaju updates:

Well the beak swelling situation has improved quite a lot, the bleeding has stopped and I think that the lump seems
much smaller in size(though its hard to say for sure since the lump is very tiny to begin with...)...he has been eating prettymuch on his own lately 
although I see sticky saliva every now and then. Whenever I see the saliva, put some water in his mouth, I think that helps clean the inside of his mouth. 

Almost every bit of the yellow deposit on the surface came off yesterday, although I could still see them stretching deep inside,
lining the skin of the walls of interior of his beak, perticularly on the left side.
However by today a lot of those stuffs grew back on the surface again ...however, overall, the inside of his mouth looks much cleaner than before.

Still could not get much done regarding the vitamin A stuffs, although I
exchanged emails with Dr Stahl and he said that its ok if I just give him oral Vitamin A, so I will go for that. 
Here's what he said:

Vitamin A through mouth is okay, no need for shots. Usually to kick start things, they give the first one as shot, then mouth feed. But as I have already started on mouth feeding of Vit A, it is good, no problems. He said good that I found Vit A was not in the prev medication. But he also warned about overdose. Vit A does not dissolve in water, so gets deposited in lever, and once there is substancial amount in the lever, it may turn toxic. So for now give once a day for 1 week- 10 days and then later maybe once a week, in food, not in water. 




*Its over 7 days now since I started giving the Cipro. Will I stop now or will I continue for a few more days? If yes, then for how many more days? Please let me know*


----------



## kajupakhi

Lovebirds said:


> http://www.racingbirds.com/remedies.html
> here's a good web site about different things you can do for your birds. This guy gives his birds juice in their water.


Thanks for the link Renee, I will go over it.


----------



## Pidgey

How about we go for 10 days on the Cipro for now? Since you're seeing some improvement, might as well keep it up. If a bird has Salmonellosis, especially a Paratyphoid boil on the wing or leg, it's not a uncommon for them to be on that medication for a month or more.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> How about we go for 10 days on the Cipro for now? Since you're seeing some improvement, might as well keep it up. If a bird has Salmonellosis, especially a Paratyphoid boil on the wing or leg, it's not a uncommon for them to be on that medication for a month or more.
> 
> Pidgey


GREAT!!!! I would love that!!!! so till 22nd of Jan then(since I started on 12th)????


----------



## kajupakhi

kaju is black in color. He is actually a checker, but the grey parts of his feathers are all hidden behind and all we can see are the black sides of his feather.
So he seems to be all black. 

Now this time when I came to India, then apart from the beak problem, I also noticed that his tail feathers and 
wing feathers(perticularly the long ones) have become rusty reddish in color rather than black. 
The first doc that I took him to said that this is due to liver problems and told me to give 5 drops 2 times a day of a medicine to improve his liver.
Its called:

Liv.52

and the box says that it protects the liver against hepatotoxins and promotes appetite and growth.


Since I will he here for less than a month from now, I would like to see him getting treated for this as well... I was wondering if there is any harm if I start giving this med to him now?
Also wondering if anyone had similar problem of rusty colired feather and if so, then what caused it??
Please let me know


----------



## Pidgey

Well, if you solved the problem (if there is one), you wouldn't know it until after he molts again which could be quite some time. Once the feathers are out, they don't change except to get damaged and messed up. Usually, good nutrition, sunlight, exercise and fresh air are going to take care of that. One of the things that you'll see with birds who have suffered long-term illness like a chronic salmonellosis is that their feathers will come in rougher--they don't lay as smooth and just manage to look like mussed hair. If the overall look is sleek and beautiful with less coloring, I probably wouldn't worry as much about that.

Incidentally, the original blacker color would just be more of the same pigmentation. For whatever reason, the pigmentation was less in the last molt and that's why the coloring is lighter. It's probably not shifting colors--just lightening up.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> Well, if you solved the problem (if there is one), you wouldn't know it until after he molts again which could be quite some time. Once the feathers are out, they don't change except to get damaged and messed up. Usually, good nutrition, sunlight, exercise and fresh air are going to take care of that. One of the things that you'll see with birds who have suffered long-term illness like a chronic salmonellosis is that their feathers will come in rougher--they don't lay as smooth and just manage to look like mussed hair. If the overall look is sleek and beautiful with less coloring, I probably wouldn't worry as much about that.
> 
> Incidentally, the original blacker color would just be more of the same pigmentation. For whatever reason, the pigmentation was less in the last molt and that's why the coloring is lighter. It's probably not shifting colors--just lightening up.
> 
> Pidgey



well since childhood, Kaju's feathers have been rougher than my other bird's smoother feathers and lately his wings feathers seem to be less smooth than what it used to be...but this chest, head and back feathers are very shiny. However he has never had any major disease uptill now...


----------



## Guest

kajupakhi ,
This thread is becoming an unbelievable excercise in killing a bird with kindness. First you start one medication and stop it within two days. Then you start another and stop it in favor of another. You're jumping from one medicine to another depending on what one vet or another says. 
Now you want to treat for a liver ailment that hasn't been diagnosed from blood tests. If a complete blood profile was taken it would show how the liver is functioning and then treatment would be justified. I get the impression that this wasn't done so your vet doesn't really know if the liver is ailing. He's basing his decisions on color changes in the feathers?
Changes in color happen normally as a bird ages. They can even get stress feathers. The feathers can change color from a lack of protein in the diet or too much protein.. There could be many reasons why feathers change color including hereditary characteristics. 
Without proper blood and fecal tests being taken, how could anyone here give you good suggestions? Trying to diagnose a bird's condition without good diagnostic tests is absurd and you are falling into a trap that isn't going to end well for your bird.


----------



## Skyeking

If you want to cover all your basis, when you suspect a problem with your bird/birds why don't you give the bird the herbal remedies and natural products recommended to you. You can do that without actually hurting the bird, but you WILL be increasing immune system response, enabling the bird a break from drugs and get positive results.

If I suspect worms, I will give a garlic/Allicidin cap a day and it is a natural antibiotic and blood cleanser as well (also improves the quality of the feathers, the powder in the feathering). If I suspect heavy case of worms I would give chapparel. For any inflammation or if I suspect virus,skin lesions, like pox I give my birds Neem oil, if you suspect the bird has liver problems, give him a Reishi cap per day, and you can detox the liver at the same time with Milk Thistle, barley, and more.

If you suspect a lack of Vitamin A, give the bird a drop of pure/organic cod liver oil, for calcium deficiencies you can give a small piece of calcium magnesium as well as calcium grit. Vitamin A in its natural state, in cod liver oil, is better absorbed and utilized then a synthetic man-made product. Just a drop is all is needed. you can also offer corn and carrots and other vegies which will supply A in its pro-vitamin form, so there is no overdosing.

You can remedy alot of suspicions with natural products, but it is best to save the medicines when there is an actual diagnosis made. However, if I'm sure a lesion is canker, I will use the prescribed treatments (Metronidozole, Spartix), and supportive nutrition and herbals for optimum immune response.

I also give a drop of colloidal silver and kefir/and or probiotics if birds have watery poops and if I suspect Coccidiosis, and lots of prevention also goes a long way to keep things under control.


----------



## kajupakhi

pigeonperson said:


> kajupakhi ,
> This thread is becoming an unbelievable excercise in killing a bird with kindness. First you start one medication and stop it within two days. Then you start another and stop it in favor of another. You're jumping from one medicine to another depending on what one vet or another says.
> Now you want to treat for a liver ailment that hasn't been diagnosed from blood tests. If a complete blood profile was taken it would show how the liver is functioning and then treatment would be justified. I get the impression that this wasn't done so your vet doesn't really know if the liver is ailing. He's basing his decisions on color changes in the feathers?
> Changes in color happen normally as a bird ages. They can even get stress feathers. The feathers can change color from a lack of protein in the diet or too much protein.. There could be many reasons why feathers change color including hereditary characteristics.
> Without proper blood and fecal tests being taken, how could anyone here give you good suggestions? Trying to diagnose a bird's condition without good diagnostic tests is absurd and you are falling into a trap that isn't going to end well for your bird.




Thanks pp for informing me about the diff reasons for color changes in feathers...let's hope Kaju's changes in feather color is for a simpler reason than a disease.

And no, I did not want to start giving the liver meds without discussing about it here coz I know that the docs here will not know as much as people on this site know about birds, so i wanted to get opinion from here before I take up any step.
So don't worry, i will not give him any liver medicines. 
Although I wish that there were proper treatments and lab tests available here so i could know for sure what was going on...


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> If you want to cover all your basis, when you suspect a problem with your bird/birds why don't you give the bird the herbal remedies and natural products recommended to you. You can do that without actually hurting the bird, but you WILL be increasing immune system response, enabling the bird a break from drugs and get positive results.
> 
> If I suspect worms, I will give a garlic/Allicidin cap a day and it is a natural antibiotic and blood cleanser as well (also improves the quality of the feathers, the powder in the feathering). If I suspect heavy case of worms I would give chapparel. For any inflammation or if I suspect virus,skin lesions, like pox I give my birds Neem oil, if you suspect the bird has liver problems, give him a Reishi cap per day, and you can detox the liver at the same time with Milk Thistle, barley, and more.
> 
> If you suspect a lack of Vitamin A, give the bird a drop of pure/organic cod liver oil, for calcium deficiencies you can give a small piece of calcium magnesium as well as calcium grit. Vitamin A in its natural state, in cod liver oil, is better absorbed and utilized then a synthetic man-made product. Just a drop is all is needed. you can also offer corn and carrots and other vegies which will supply A in its pro-vitamin form, so there is no overdosing.
> 
> You can remedy alot of suspicions with natural products, but it is best to save the medicines when there is an actual diagnosis made. However, if I'm sure a lesion is canker, I will use the prescribed treatments (Metronidozole, Spartix), and supportive nutrition and herbals for optimum immune response.
> 
> I also give a drop of colloidal silver and kefir/and or probiotics if birds have watery poops and if I suspect Coccidiosis, and lots of prevention also goes a long way to keep things under control.




Hi Treesa, its an excellent idea to go for herbal remedies and natural products given the state of avian medical facilities available here.
Infact, I have already started with the carrots and garlic, and will try out the rest of them as and when needed...Thanks a lot for all those tips on natural remidies.


----------



## Guest

kajupakhi,
I know you're in a bind over there. It would be great if somebody could take some blood and fecal material for tests. You could pin down if anything more is there but right now, you're confused and it isn't your fault. If it were a choice of medicating more than you have done, meaning a canker killer and Cipro, I wouldn't, not without definitive tests.
Treesa is right about giving natural remedies. They won't hurt if given in moderation. You'll be building up some immunity that was lost with the illness. If anything Treesa is conservative in her approach. She is recommending one drop of cod liver oil. I put an entire gel capsule down every adult bird I take in but only one. More could do much more harm than help. I would suggest putting a Brewers Yeast tablet down too but for the possibility that if there is a yeast infection there, the tablet would make it worse. (That's one reason why I won't feed bread to birds). So, even giving a pigeon something as natural and as healthy as that could cause a problem. 
I still believe this was canker and that the antibiotic helped a bacterial infection from blowing up and that the canker was killed off. I still believe in surgically removing the residual abscess but I also know you aren't going to do that so let's hope the body can resorb this lump.. I could be wrong about all of this but I too fell victim to trying to help over the web. It's a dangerous thing to do but going beyond these medications and trying to treat a liver condition that may not even be there is just plain crazy and your vet(s) are to blame. They can do tests for cats and dogs but they probably don't know how to interpret them for birds. I wish you could find a vet there that can do tests and can interpret them.
Let's just hope that everything resolves and will come back to normal.


----------



## kajupakhi

pigeonperson said:


> kajupakhi,
> I know you're in a bind over there. It would be great if somebody could take some blood and fecal material for tests. You could pin down if anything more is there but right now, you're confused and it isn't your fault. If it were a choice of medicating more than you have done, meaning a canker killer and Cipro, I wouldn't, not without definitive tests.
> Treesa is right about giving natural remedies. They won't hurt if given in moderation. You'll be building up some immunity that was lost with the illness. If anything Treesa is conservative in her approach. She is recommending one drop of cod liver oil. I put an entire gel capsule down every adult bird I take in but only one. More could do much more harm than help. I would suggest putting a Brewers Yeast tablet down too but for the possibility that if there is a yeast infection there, the tablet would make it worse. (That's one reason why I won't feed bread to birds). So, even giving a pigeon something as natural and as healthy as that could cause a problem.
> I still believe this was canker and that the antibiotic helped a bacterial infection from blowing up and that the canker was killed off. I still believe in surgically removing the residual abscess but I also know you aren't going to do that so let's hope the body can resorb this lump.. I could be wrong about all of this but I too fell victim to trying to help over the web. It's a dangerous thing to do but going beyond these medications and trying to treat a liver condition that may not even be there is just plain crazy and your vet(s) are to blame. They can do tests for cats and dogs but they probably don't know how to interpret them for birds. I wish you could find a vet there that can do tests and can interpret them.
> Let's just hope that everything resolves and will come back to normal.


Well I figured out that the only doc here who has probably treated a variety of animals and birds is the doc at the zoo and he gave me appointment for today...the problem is that he is not supposed to practice independently, so on my desperate request he told me to come to his house on this sunday afternoon...let's see what happens.

Yes I wish there were facilities for bird's lab tests for blood and stool here, but that is an alien world to the vets here.

Also the lab guys have found out that I live in US and earn in dollars(so according to them I am rich...which is not the case though) and so I think that they are making money out of me by stupid and useless tests, and they do not know how to do the actual tests and its hard for me to figure out on my own as well.


Question:--- Does all cod liver oil have vitamin A in it ? Some times back I talked to a medicine shop here and they said that the cod liver oil here does not have vitamin Aalso the bottle's composition does not say anything about Vitamin A. ...although I do remember that the ones I have in USA from GNC mentions Vitamin A in big-bold letters on the bottle


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Kajupakhi, 

You really are in a bind over there in so many ways It's really hard for me, and probably others to relate to how almost "primative" things are over there.

I would think that all cod liver oil contains varying amounts of vitamin A and can't possibly see why or how it would be removed. It's even stranger that proper labeling and contents of things there is so scant. 

I'm happy to hear that Kaju is continuing to show signs of improvement, holding his weight and is behaving well still. 

I think Pigeonperson has some very valid concerns here in regards to all the medications and supplements that you're thrusting onto Kaju. Remember that all these things are processed through the liver and it could be starting to tax that organ. 

You know that I've mostly kept out of this thread and because it's gotten so confusing now, but perhaps you should take a break from everything else other than the cipro for now. 

I'd worry about the vitamin supplements and any other supplements or drugs until the course of cipro is finished. I know you're getting bombarded with advice from all sides but since you're the person there with the pigeon, I think you should start having a little more faith in your gut and what YOU feel you should do.


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi guys,

I came back from the zoo doc a while back and he thinks that it may be a tumour growth.
He said that since he is showing improvement with cipro, so let him continue for 7 more days, although with the 250 ones and not 500. And if things still don't improve, then he might(although not for sure) arrange for a biopsy.
He also said that if its malignant, then there is nothing he can do, otherwise for the regular tumour, he might have to do a surgery and that it was in an EXTREMELY BAD SPOT and that honestly he had never done surgery in that spot before and is not very confident.
He also said that he cannot arrange for blood or stool tests 
Still I liked this doc better than the ones I took him to so far since he took enough time to listen to me and took a good look inside his mouth and tried to feel any lump anywhere...something that the other docs did not care much about.

anyway, I am off to the countryside house again tomorrow morning and it could be a while before I get back to folks here since there is no internet there and the cybercafes are very far off and my docs have adviced me to take a lot of rest coz my BP has increased a lot lately due to stress of balancing my job/livelihood, relationship in US and my love/responsibilities towards Kaju .
Meanwhile, pray and hope that he gets better...


----------



## kajupakhi

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Kajupakhi,
> 
> You really are in a bind over there in so many waysIt's really hard for me, and probably others to relate to how almost "primative" things are over there.
> 
> I would think that all cod liver oil contains varying amounts of vitamin A and can't possibly see why or how it would be removed. It's even stranger that proper labeling and contents of things there is so scant.
> 
> I'm happy to hear that Kaju is continuing to show signs of improvement, holding his weight and is behaving well still.
> 
> I think Pigeonperson has some very valid concerns here in regards to all the medications and supplements that you're thrusting onto Kaju. Remember that all these things are processed through the liver and it could be starting to tax that organ.
> 
> You know that I've mostly kept out of this thread and because it's gotten so confusing now, but perhaps you should take a break from everything else other than the cipro for now.
> 
> I'd worry about the vitamin supplements and any other supplements or drugs until the course of cipro is finished. I know you're getting bombarded with advice from all sides but since you're the person there with the pigeon, I think you should start having a little more faith in your gut and what YOU feel you should do.



Hi Brad,

Thanks for your post. Your advice on buying a gram scale machine and weighing Kaju was really good one and I am doing that on a regular basis.
Your second advice on keeping my head balanced is also an excellent one, however I wonder how much I am able to do that even though I am trying my best  
Its really frustrating having to go through all this here when I know of all that could be done to help Kaju in USA!!!

Well, the only medicine that he is taking internally right now is cipro, and once in a while I give ToneEBird, coz I am mostly giving carrots instead!!! I stopped the Ronnidazole about few days back.
The rest of the meds i,e for fungus and the germicide are all to be applied locally in that area. *SO DOES THAT(the locally applied meds) AFFECT LIVER AS WELL???Please let me know*


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> If you want to cover all your basis, when you suspect a problem with your bird/birds why don't you give the bird the herbal remedies and natural products recommended to you. You can do that without actually hurting the bird, but you WILL be increasing immune system response, enabling the bird a break from drugs and get positive results.
> 
> If I suspect worms, I will give a garlic/Allicidin cap a day and it is a natural antibiotic and blood cleanser as well (also improves the quality of the feathers, the powder in the feathering). If I suspect heavy case of worms I would give chapparel. For any inflammation or if I suspect virus,skin lesions, like pox I give my birds Neem oil, if you suspect the bird has liver problems, give him a Reishi cap per day, and you can detox the liver at the same time with Milk Thistle, barley, and more.
> 
> If you suspect a lack of Vitamin A, give the bird a drop of pure/organic cod liver oil, for calcium deficiencies you can give a small piece of calcium magnesium as well as calcium grit. Vitamin A in its natural state, in cod liver oil, is better absorbed and utilized then a synthetic man-made product. Just a drop is all is needed. you can also offer corn and carrots and other vegies which will supply A in its pro-vitamin form, so there is no overdosing.
> 
> You can remedy alot of suspicions with natural products, but it is best to save the medicines when there is an actual diagnosis made. However, if I'm sure a lesion is canker, I will use the prescribed treatments (Metronidozole, Spartix), and supportive nutrition and herbals for optimum immune response.
> 
> I also give a drop of colloidal silver and kefir/and or probiotics if birds have watery poops and if I suspect Coccidiosis, and lots of prevention also goes a long way to keep things under control.




hi Treesa, what is Reishi cap??? We can get barly here, how do I use it for birds and how much of it needs to be given? Please let me know


----------



## Pidgey

I wouldn't worry about the topicals.

Seems like Reishi capsules are capsules with a specific mushroom extract. You might not be able to get that there, even though the source of them is a lot nearer to you than us.

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather

kajupakhi said:


> Hi guys,
> *I came back from the zoo doc a while back and he thinks that it may be a tumour growth.*
> 
> *Still I liked this doc better than the ones I took him to so far since he took enough time to listen to me and took a good look inside his mouth and tried to feel any lump anywhere...something that the other docs did not care much about.*


Thanks for the update.
Sorry to hear a tumor may be suspected.  

I'm glad the zoo doc took time with Kaju.  
Unfortunately, more times than not, vets won't even look at pigeons, let alone treat them. 
We are blessed to have Pigeon-Talk at our fingertips. 

Please keep us posted as time permits.

Cindy


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## feralpigeon

Hi Kajupakhi,

I'm glad to hear that the zoo vet worked out so much better than expected.
I'm hoping that he will indeed do the biopsy, as I'm thinking there might actually
be some quality control w/the zoo vet. This is the fellow through the University
of Calcutta?

Topicals can/do effect the liver especially if the skin is open, but only if they have a toxicity level to begin with. Brad gave you some good advice when he
said: "I know you're getting bombarded with advice from all sides but since you're the person there with the pigeon, I think you should start having a little more faith in your gut and what YOU feel you should do." PT will always be a 'safety net' for you in the meantime.

Regarding his ability to achieve a successful surgical outcome with debridement/removal of the growth, perhaps you can discuss w/him what
the outcome would be w/no surgical intervention especially after a biopsy, because this will most likely have bearing on how you would choose to proceed. 

And as for your own blood pressure, please take time to nurture yourself
in the midst of all this. I know this all must be incredibly stressful for you, so take the time in the country get your bearings and enjoy your surroundings  

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

I have to leave in a few hours from now so I am in a major hurry...will respont tp everyone's post later.

Just one quick question before I leave:

Is there any way I can make Kaju realize that his beak condition is not so good that he needs to give his beak rest???

I is no longer allowed to be with my other two birds, and I have removed all toys, however he is very playful and invents fun games out of anything/everything available to him like the wires of his cage, newspapers on the floor of his cage, seeds fallen on the floor etc very often he will play with all of them and he preens himself a lot...

Infact yesterday night he started preening himself soooooooooooo hard tht the area started bleeding again ...and got swollen I never thought that he would end up bleeding by just preening, so I let him untill I saw blood. It was so frustrating for me since I had worked so hard to make sure that at least the bleeding stops...But the bleeding never seems to bother him, its as if he does not care and nothing much has happened, he tried to keep on preening himself inspite of the bleeding and would bite me real hard when I tried to stop 
I got a lot of  bitings from him since I still did not let him preen anymore, but its hard to keep an watch 24/7...I wish he would realize the danger somehow.

Anyway today morning I noticed that the bleeding has stopped and its less swollen again...hope it does not get any worse


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I haven't figured out how to explain anything to a pigeon so I think you're going to be on your own on that score. It's not that I haven't tried, you know, just that I've never managed to have much success...

Anyhow, if it's the hypovitaminosis A theory like your zoo vet seems to be thinking, then the membrane doesn't have anything like its former suppleness to be able to handle any stresses. Think of it like the skin and tissue over your fingernail beds. They (fingernails) continue back under the skin further than you think. If that skin were to suffer a hyperplasia, it would get kinda' tough like a callous, only not strong enough to hold itself together very well so it might crack here and there. Think of what fingers get like in a North American winter when they get dry and cracky and need a lot of hand lotion to keep from really getting bad. Any mechanical pressure would cause a crack because the fingernail-like portion of the beak isn't going to give and the skin there on the inside is too brittle to keep from cracking. That's what it's beginning to sound like your problem is, now. I don't know if they make such a product but you'd almost wish you had a hand lotion for the inside of the mouth.

Pidgey


----------



## Guest

kajupakhi ,
Don't be afraid of the word, tumor. Any mass that's alien to the body is called a tumor. This is in no way a cancerous mass. I still believe this is a mass of encapsulated canker that can't drain out because it's trapped and because it's dry. I do believe that a surgery is needed to get this mass out so the beak and the tissue that is attached to the beak can grow back together. As long as it stays in there, the tissues are going to be irritated and bleed. If you get somebody qualified to do it, be a pest and make it's understood that the striated ligament running along the length of the beak cannot be damaged. Make sure you get a vet who knows a bird's anatomy.


----------



## Skyeking

kajupakhi said:


> hi Treesa, what is Reishi cap??? We can get barly here, how do I use it for birds and how much of it needs to be given?


Sorry to answer you so late.

Yes, I give one organic Reishi capsule per day, and one of Allicidin/Garlic.

Here is a link to Natural Antibiotics. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12627


----------



## kajupakhi

Kaju updates---

The beak swelling has reduced a lot and the lump is almost gone 
He is eating well, no sticky saliva.

However, yesterday for the 4th time(I think) those yellow stuffs came off again and the beak looked clean, but by today morning it has grown back quite a bit and from my past experience, it will get ugly soon in the inside again ...from my observation, it usually takes about 6 to 7 days for the stuffs to peel off, grow back again and then peel off again so I think that the next peeling off will happen after 6 to 7 days from now.

Also this time when the stuffs peeled off, for the first time I noticed that it peeled off the linning of the membrane or skin along with the yellow stuffs 
That's what Pidgey talks about...I think
This feature was never so apparent before as it was yesterday when it peeled off.
 

Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread lately. Sorry could not respond back to each one individually...accessing internet through cybercafe 
is REALLY EXPENSIVE HERE, and my typing speed is not good,
so i have to hurry. I will respond to everyone when I am back in the city again.

KAjupakhi


----------



## Pidgey

We're probably never going to know for sure what that stuff is unless you put some in a small bottle, fill it with alcohol or formaldehyde and bring it back for analysis here. It'll either be inflammatory cells (leukocytes), some keratin-like stuff or some other cellular debris.

Has the shedding amount and quantity been slowing down since you first got back to India? It used to kinda' stack up, didn't it? 

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

What I wouldn't give to know how this one's going. Kajupakhi... hello?

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi everyone,


Sorry for coming back so late. I KNOW THAT A LOT OF U HAVE BEEN REALLY WORRIED.
The weather's been really rough lately, and I have not been keeping well , the cybercafe is really far off, so I stayed indoors mostly...BUT EVERY DAY I MEANT TO GET BACK TO U GUYS WITH UPDATES(I swear).

KAJU UPDATES:

Well the peeling off and growing back of stuffs have reduced DRASTICALLY since my last post. It has happened twice since then (as was expected from the time duration of this cycle), but the AMOUNT IS MUCH MUCH MUCH LESS NOW...the growth is very little and definitely no overstacking!!!!! 

BUT for the past 5/6 days once again there is sticky saliva, even if I put water down his throat...AND AN AWFUL LOT OF BLEEDING!!!!!!   
He has bled about 4 times in the past few days and each time there were tooooooooooo much blood coming out from that area. The inside of his mouth becomes all red...REALLLY SCARY!!!...I AM REALLY SCARED WHEN THAT HAPPENS. Infact today morning also he beld a lot, he bled so much that when I found out, I saw thick semi-dry blood clothing-type blood along with the regular liquid blood. I don't know for how long he was bleeding as this happened while I was in the shower and having lunch. There were some
blood on the wires of his cage and a some spilled on the walls. 
His cage is quite huge and he can make short flights, but I think that he was playing his "climbing up the cage with beak and legs" game and hurt himself.
I DESPERATELY WISH THAT SOMEHOW I CAN MAKE HIM STOP USING HIS BEAK COMPLETELY TILL IT HEALS.
He surprises me with all his energy these days...even when his mouth is full of blood, he is still doing something or the other with it!!! HE JUST DOES NOT CARE

However, there is no lump or increase in the beak swelling as of now.
And naturally with everything going on with him, he can no longer eat on his own again.
Its really hard to monitor him all the time, and god knows what will happen when I am gone. I have trained Kaju's new nanny to feed and take care of him and she is handling it fairly well(although not as perfectly as I would want it to be)...but she is not going to be available all the time to monitor his actions since she is very busy and works is other places. She will only come 3 to 4 times per day to feed him, bath and etc. 

Anyway I am leaving on 2nd March, hope everything gets better by then and atleast he eats on his own coz Kaju does not like being fed by anyone else except by me and it will be really hard for me to leave!!!


By the way, the zoo doctor said that he cannot arrange for a biopsy as he said he would and is not confident of surgery in that area, so he won't do it. He also said that if its cancer, then bleeding is going to happen and will get worse.
There is not much he or any medicine can do anymore.


----------



## Pidgey

I don't know that any of us have had experience with the kind of thing you're describing. It sounds like a lot has improved and it may be that the membrane is still structurally weak or that Kaju's just got some really bad habits of playing hard.

Sure would be nice if you could find a way of keeping him from doing that. It may be that he only climbs on the side where he can see you or something like that and that it would be possible to replace that side with fine screen that he can't climb on. I'd try to think in ways like that to keep him from doing it.

At this point, we can only hope that it hasn't progressed to cancer. There's not much we can do about that beyond what we've already done. Within the constraints of the circumstances, we've worked really hard at leaving no stones unturned here. Best of luck!

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Kajupakhi,

I am glad to hear there is some progress, but sorry to hear there still is some work to be done.

To add to what Pidgey has said, I would try him in a much smaller cage, maybe not hospital sized. good enough where he could flap and exercise, but not where he is using his mouth to get around. Second, I would try something very simple, I would get some pure glygerine and give him .25-.50cc (a few drops at a time into the side of his beak, until finished) three times a day to keep his mouth and surrounding tissues well moistened to give it a chance to perhaps heal better, as if there is any drying going on the damaged tissue, it will tear and not stretch a little as it would if it is well moisturized. Also, I think if you could give him a few drops of oil, say olive oil, a few minutes after giving the glycerine it will help seal the glyceriine in and not wash it away quite as quickly when he drinks.

Give this a week and reassess.

I hope this helps and good luck,

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

Well, got an email from Kajupakhi that wasn't too good. It seems that the bleeding is certainly not stopping and the growths still come and go. The lower beak is also growing rubbery like the underlying bone structure is dissolving. It's looking more and more like cancer all the time, I guess. When the growths are allowed to stay, there is less bleeding and the bird's self-feeding now. She's looked into the possibility of having the bird put to sleep if it becomes necessary but the local vets won't even try it because Kaju is a bird, not a dog or a cat. Kajupakhi is back in the big city now but she hasn't much had the heart to report back at this point, I'm sure that all of you understand her feelings. I'm thinking that for those of you who want to express your support, you can probably email Kajupakhi through the website and it will reach her.

Pidgey


----------



## warriec

Hello,

I had the same problem & the result was that my mookee hen's lower beak turn to the side as a result she can no longer feed young. I think something when wrong mentally too because she is so frighten now of everything and does not seem interested in pairing up.


----------



## Skyeking

I'm so sorry to hear about Kajupakhi's bird, it has to be quite upsetting (not to mention frustrating) when you do everything you can but resources/information are so limited in parts of the world. 

I will send my thoughts and support.



warriec,

I'm so sorry to hear about your hen, she may feel differently about mating if she doesn't feel well, also.


----------



## Pidgey

Small correction: the beak isn't rubbery--the tip is just bending. She tried calling the vets and they wouldn't even try any surgeries for removal or anything. If you're born a bird over there, you're on your own, short of what medications your owner's willing to procure and treat you with.

Pidgey


----------



## warriec

Treesa,

she looks perfectly healthy, i think she is the healthiest of the lot except for the bent beak. 

i think kajupakhi & i would both like to know what we can do to straighten a bent beak.


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi Everybody,

I am sorry for giving Kaju updates so late. He has not been keeping well(except for the last 2 days) since my last post and I was kind of depressed/sad/frustrated/scared/helpless...etc,ect...having all kinds of emotions and I needed some time to collect myself before getting back to everyone...hope you will understand.I know that this is the only place where folks can understand what me and Kaju are going through.I kind of got quite attached to this community due to this experience.

I guess I am finally begning to accept the fact that he has /soon will have cancer and his days are limitted.
Since my last post he was bleeding excessively and they were clotted blood and not completely liquidish. His beak got swollen,little lump reappeared again along with the sticky saliva and inability to eat on his own. Pretty soon, the yellow growth started reappearing as well....so basically every improvement that took place was gone very quickly. On top of it he started acting sick as well. He would sit quitely all puffed up etc.
His upper and lower beak is also growing abnormally long and bending downwards. His lower beak has become really delicate and Rubbery(Pidgey is right!!!). Both his upper and lower beak looks like a parrot's beak these days, rather than a pigeon's. I also measured them and they are 3 cm long(compared to my other 2 bird's which are both 2.5 cm long) and Kaju's beaks are bending downwards from about the length of 1.5 cm till the tip.

For the past 2 days however I did not notice any bleeding, he is eating well on his own and he has also become active and lively. But soon 1cm of his lower beak will break(that part has become soft and rubbery) and he cannot eat again...and u never know when He will start to bleed again.

Its almost time for me to leave for USA and I HAVE TO GO THIS TIME. At least I know that we have all tried our best in the given circumstances. There is'nt anything else that I can do for him anymore...the good thing is that I personally took care of his treatment and failed. Otherwise I would have felt really bad if I would have left it to my parents and Kaju died. My sis works in London, she is Kaju's second mom, she was planning to come to India to continue with Kaju's treatment from where I left off, but now we both know that that she will need to come to bid Kaju final goodbye. It breaks my heart to even think that I will have to say my final goodbye to Kaju just next week...but this is life. I will try to come back for Kaju after a few months if he is still alife.

As for Kaju, hope he makes the most of the little life he has left. He will always hold A VERY SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART.

I still could not find doctors to do surgury or if needed , to put him to sleep...and I don't think that I will find any.

At this momment I am very happy for all you folks in the west. You all are really lucky to be living in countries where there are so many things you can do to save your birds.Its sad that even though both me and sis live in West, but still we could not do much for the one family member who desperately needed to be in the West now.

Thanks Pidgey for providing everyone with Kaju updates for me and explaining my situation.

Thanks Jazzaroo for your suggestions. I took care of the cage problem, but could not do the stuffs with glycerine since these days I am no longer touching his beak much, since its all soooooo delicate and anything can leed to bleeding.

Thanks Treesa for your kind words...yeah its really frustrating when u are willing to do whatever u can to save your bird, but the circumstances are such that u cannot do much. 

Thanks Warriec for your post. I am wondering why your hen's beak curved downwards? was it due to cancer?please let me know.

Kajupakhi


----------



## warriec

Well Kajupakhi, she too had a growth on the side of the beak and it got really big until one day i suppose it fell the the lower beak started turning to the side. She seems to be mentally disturbed now.


----------



## kajupakhi

warriec said:


> Well Kajupakhi, she too had a growth on the side of the beak and it got really big until one day i suppose it fell the the lower beak started turning to the side. She seems to be mentally disturbed now.


That's sad but atleast she is only retarded and not dead...I would rather have Kaju retarded instead of being dead.
Also has the texture of her lower beak become soft and rubbery? does it break often? is her beak generally overgrown?


----------



## Skyeking

kajupakhi said:


> That's sad but atleast she is only retarded and not dead...I would rather have Kaju retarded instead of being dead.
> Also has the texture of her lower beak become soft and rubbery? does it break often? is her beak generally overgrown?


Hi kajupakhi,

I'm really sorry about the circumstances, I know how hard this must be for you.

Sending my wishes and prayers for Kaju that hopefully he will get thru this.


----------



## warriec

retarded or dead it is very difficult for me and her parther. i think they have divorced each other now. anyway, as u said. i should be happy she is still alive


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> Hi kajupakhi,
> 
> I'm really sorry about the circumstances, I know how hard this must be for you.
> 
> Sending my wishes and prayers for Kaju that hopefully he will get thru this.




Hi Treesa,

Thanks a lot fo sending your wishes and prayers...WE REALLY NEED THAT!!!

Kajupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

warriec said:


> retarded or dead it is very difficult for me and her parther. i think they have divorced each other now. anyway, as u said. i should be happy she is still alive


Yeah..its sad that your hen cannot njoy life as much, but now that I am about to loose Kaju forever pretty soon, I am sure that we all will agree as to how lucky u are that at least your hen is still alife...hope she gets better soon, though.


----------



## Pidgey

I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. It's entirely possible that it's not a malignant cancer at this point and is just at a "dysplasia" stage where it could easily finish turning into cancer but doesn't, maybe not for a long, long time. I'd take simple stability at this point and have him stay like this for the next two or three years. Just take each day and live it the best that you and he can.

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. It's entirely possible that it's not a malignant cancer at this point and is just at a "dysplasia" stage where it could easily finish turning into cancer but doesn't, maybe not for a long, long time. I'd take simple stability at this point and have him stay like this for the next two or three years. Just take each day and live it the best that you and he can.
> 
> Pidgey


*HOW I WISH EVERY THING U ARE SAYING COMES TRUE!!!!!!*

...as far as enjoying life is concerned,he is doing it pretty well so far...I REALLY ADMIRE HIS SPIRIT!!!! although he does not have any strenth in his beak anymore, but he as pretty good mental and physical energy so far...I just hope he stays like that


----------



## feralpigeon

kajupakhi said:


> ....
> ...as far as enjoying life is concerned,he is doing it pretty well so far...I REALLY ADMIRE HIS SPIRIT!!!! although he does not have any strenth in his beak anymore, but he as pretty good mental and physical energy so far...I just hope he stays like that


Kajupakhi, I'm sorry to hear about Kaju and the continued deterioration of his
beak. I wish there were something that could be done for him even though
you have made every effort above and beyond in spite of the veterinary care that is available for pet birds in your country. You are really wonderful to him
and beyond whatever suffering he may be experiencing right now, I just know that he feels fully supported and loved.

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Kajupakhi, I'm sorry to hear about Kaju and the continued deterioration of his
> beak. I wish there were something that could be done for him even though
> you have made every effort above and beyond in spite of the veterinary care that is available for pet birds in your country. You are really wonderful to him
> and beyond whatever suffering he may be experiencing right now, I just know that he feels fully supported and loved.
> 
> fp


thanks fp for those nice and encouraging words...yeah Kaju has always been a *VERY HIGHLY PAMPERED FAMILY MEMBER*...as u can imagine happening when a bird has 2 moms for 7 years(me and sis)...he has been getting Extra special importance and attention from the day he hatched from egg. Everyone says that none of the humans in our family gets as much of attention from us as he does ...*AND HE KNOWS THAT VERY WELL!!!*...but now-a-days neither me nor my sis can stay with him throughout the year, although we do visit very often(mainly for Kaju...and the other birds too, we love them very much as well)


----------



## kajupakhi

Hi everybody,

I know I have'nt posted anything in a long time(Life has become tooooooooooooo busy suddenly), but 
I just wanted to say "hi" to everyone out here who helped me and Kaju so much in so many ways!!!...


Also I wanted to post brief update on Kaju for those who are still wondering about his health.
Well he is doing pretty much the same. Since I left for US, he was doing pretty well untill 
around the 20th of March when he bled a lot for 1 day,and did not eat for 2 days.
But once again he has not bled much since then and has picked up on his eating again...but u never know when things get 
ugly again. His upper beak is overgrowing faster and needs to be trimmed every month(I think so...though not sure)
Other than that nothing different...



*THANK YOU ALL FOR HELPING ME IN SO MANY WAYS AND WISHING AND PRAYING FOR KAJU!!!!!!*

KAjupakhi


----------



## Skyeking

Hello there,

Thank you for the update. 

I will continue to keep the good thoughts and pray for a healing for Kaju, he certainly has been thru alot.

He is very fortunate to have such a loving and supportive parent/owner who does everything for him.


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Thank you for the update.
> 
> I will continue to keep the good thoughts and pray for a healing for Kaju, he certainly has been thru alot.
> 
> He is very fortunate to have such a loving and supportive parent/owner who does everything for him.


Thanks Treesa for your kind words, wishes and prayers.

Its a good thing that I was in India at a time when Kaju started having this beak problem...otherwise who knows...
maybe nobody at home would have noticed before it got too late...

Also, the link to the Garlic capsule that you mentioned in your post "goodness of garlic" is no longer working...so can you please send me the link 
to the Garlic capsule product that you use so I can send it to Kaju?? I give kaju both regular and garlic water 
at the same time and he drinks both of them pretty well...since I am in USA now, I might send him some garlic
capsule for him instead...

Thanks again

Kajupakhi


----------



## Victor

Kajupakhi, hello. It is so good to see you posting. I think about Kaju and you much. Thank yo for up-dating us on your beloved Kaju. He is one strong bird just like his caretaker. Here is the link I think you were asking about~

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12553&highlight=garlic


----------



## Skyeking

Hi,

I would give Kaju one everyday (to build his immune system and purify the blood) for a while-see how he responds, then continue to give one each week, it has great long term effects because it is so concentrated.

Here is the link:
http://store.thecatalog.com/1790.html


----------



## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> Kajupakhi, hello. It is so good to see you posting. I think about Kaju and you much. Thank yo for up-dating us on your beloved Kaju. He is one strong bird just like his caretaker. Here is the link I think you were asking about~
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12553&highlight=garlic


Hi Victor, 

Thanks a lot for your prayers, thoughts, encouragements and kind words.
Its REALLY GOOD to have the support and help of this little group of people on this site who 
can understand and feel my situation so well when the rest of the world probably thinks I am crazy
to love a "Pigeon" so much...specially since to most people they are so invaluable.

Also thanks a lot for the link...its really helpful.


Well Kaju is a strong bird...and I never realised it untill he started having his beak porblem.I Truely admire 
his spirit. But now a days he needs special attention due to his condition and so he is no longer allowed to have any toys
nor does he get to live with my other two birds...coz I do not want him to start fighting and hurting himself.
So I guess he is bored and lonely, specially now that both me and my sis are away...
However I have put my other 2 birds in seperate cages pretty close to him so he can silently communicate with each other...
AND THAT THEY DO ALL THE TIME!!!!!Coz they always copy each other's actions!!

All my 3 birds live in individual cages now, take bath and free-fly seperately. so that way they are all in the same state...
lots of new rules for them lately!!!
I decided on this coz I do not want the other 2 to get bonded and have Kaju go through emotional problems on top 
of all his physical problems. I want him to be happy for the rest of the little life that he has left.
Another reason for seperating Chotu and Jhuti(my other 2 ) is coz Chotu ALWAYS BITES JHUIT and sometimes very badly.
So I think that Jhuti likes to be left alone


KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would give Kaju one everyday (to build his immune system and purify the blood) for a while-see how he responds, then continue to give one each week, it has great long term effects because it is so concentrated.
> 
> Here is the link:
> http://store.thecatalog.com/1790.html


Hi Treesa,

Thanks a lot for the link and tips...They are going to be very helpful. 
Well Kaju loves drinking garlic water more than plain water...although I give them both at the same time so he can
choose...
I am sure he will like the capsule as well, coz I think that he realises that
garlic is doing good to him...otherwise he would not drink the water in the first place.

Thanks

KAjupakhi


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi KAjupakhi, it's so good to hear from you again and just so awesome the 
way you anticipate his feelings and needs in terms of the birds' housing arrangements. Glad to hear that Kaju is becoming a Garlic Bird and I hope that 
he continues to hold his own. The best to you and Kaju...

fp


----------



## kajupakhi

feralpigeon said:


> Hi KAjupakhi, it's so good to hear from you again and just so awesome the
> way you anticipate his feelings and needs in terms of the birds' housing arrangements. Glad to hear that Kaju is becoming a Garlic Bird and I hope that
> he continues to hold his own. The best to you and Kaju...
> 
> fp


Hi Fp,
Nice to hear from you...YEAH, its good that Kaju is liking garlic and its good that I learned about giving garlic 
to birds throuhg this site.

as far as their housing is concerned, we try to do our best and make sure that things are ok for them...
but I REALLY HATE THE fact that Kaju can no longer play, since he loved to play soooooooooooooooooooooooo much.
Jhuti likes to play as well but not very much as such...she just likes sitting on a variety of pearches and Chotu 
is indifferent towards any toys/perches...so now all their toys are a waste and ever since I came to USA(3 years)
I have spend over $500 just on their toys/seedcups/pearches(I know its crazy, but that's how much I love my birds)
and now I feel like I wasted all my money. Besides I am just sad that Kaju can no longer enjoy the fun of playing with toys.

My sis is also trying to spend as much time with Kaju as she can in my absence. She came back from London a week after 
I left for USA. So she can take care of kaju's needs...but she had to leave fter 2 weeks due to work. She is coming
back to India again in May(hopefully...if she can manage to work from India) for one month and then I will try to go back to 
India in July(if Kaju is still alife by then). Kaju's nanny takes care of him in the absence of my sis and me...
I guess, that's the best we can do under the given situation.

Kajupakhi


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Kaju,

Oh, I wish I could help out and bird sit for you, when you and your family can't be there for him. I'm sure you could use the help, and Kaju would enjoy a change of scenery and vacation.  

I give my pet Skye his garlic capsule on the back of his tongue, and push it back and he closes his beak and swallows, he is SO used to me giving it to him. He practically open his beak when he sees me coming towards him. He is so mellow and easy going, I guess it comes with time and old age. 

I can tell that Kaju is a real sweetheart and very well behaved, I'm sure he won't mind his garlic capsule.


----------



## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Kaju,
> 
> Oh, I wish I could help out and bird sit for you, when you and your family can't be there for him. I'm sure you could use the help, and Kaju would enjoy a change of scenery and vacation.
> 
> I give my pet Skye his garlic capsule on the back of his tongue, and push it back and he closes his beak and swallows, he is SO used to me giving it to him. He practically open his beak when he sees me coming towards him. He is so mellow and easy going, I guess it comes with time and old age.
> 
> I can tell that Kaju is a real sweetheart and very well behaved, I'm sure he won't mind his garlic capsule.




Hi Treesa,

   That's very funny and YEAH it would be great if i could get help from bird experts like you for bird sitting Kaju and he would LOVE 
the change, specially with another bird like Skye around...they both sound very similar. Its amazing how much they
trust you with time when kept indoors as pets!!! 
Kaju would open his mouth for me whenever I would hand feed him, but after the bleeding started getting more and
more severe, I stopped doing so coz soon it became apparent that he would bleed more when he opened his mouth for me... 

KAjupakhi


----------



## kajupakhi

Eight years ago, around this time of the year, I and my sis were desperately trying to save a cracked pigeon egg (a couple of pigeons had laid eggs in our house and the male cracked one of the two eggs). At 5:30 pm exactly on this date, a very cute little chick hatched from that egg. I took it in my hand and instantly fell in love with it. I promised myself it would have a safe and happy life. It sat straight with eyes closed and a serious expression on its face. Its yellow baby hairs were swaying lightly in the air, and it looked so cute!!

Little did I realize then, how my life will be affected by this little life in my hand. We decided to name him Kaju (Cashewnut) and his little brother, Kishmis (Raisin). As they grew older, they brought us tremendous joy and excitement with their sweet and comical behavior. After a bad day, all me and my sis had to do was to spend some quality time with our birds…and that was enough to cheer us up. We became inseparable from them.

However as they say, nothing is constant but change, and all good things must come to an end…as Kishmis grew older he wanted to be with other birds. So, he left us and Kaju to have a life of his own. But Kaju chose to stay with us…and we were overjoyed that he chose us over everything else!!!

However human lives are way more complex than those of our feathered friends…too many responsibilities, too much expectations from life and too many difficult choices…so after a few years, me and my sis sailed across seven seas and oceans to far off lands, leaving Kaju behind…it broke our heart to leave him behind, but selfish as we are, we chose our lives over Kaju. (A decision we are not at all proud of, but we just had to do it).

However we would visit him often and he always remembered us and bonded with us immediately.


----------



## kajupakhi

Last winter, while I was visiting my family and Kaju in India, I noticed something was very wrong with him. I felt very scared, alone and helpless…I did not know what to do or how I could save the life of my dear old pigeon in the land with no proper avian vets or medical treatment.

That’s when I came to realize what this site and the people here mean to me and Kaju. So many of you came forward and helped me in so many different ways. Had it not been for the guidance, help, support and encouragement I received from people here, Kaju probably would not be alive today and enjoying his eighth birthday.

*YES!! GUYS WE DID IT!! *Today is Kaju’s birthday/hatchday, so ...
*Happy Birthday to Kaju.* 
Frankly speaking, I had very little hope that he would live to see this day. Although he still has his beak problem and has become a bird with special needs and maybe he won’t be around this time next year, but as of today I am really happy and grateful that he is still here with us and enjoying life. He can eat on his own; in fact he eats double the amount he was eating this time last year. So, I wanted to celebrate his birthday with this little group of friends that I and Kaju made…friends who stood by us during our hard times.

*To celebrate his birthday, I made some videos of Kaju and wanted to share them with all of you. Through these videos you will get a glimpse of Kaju’s little world comprising of Chhotu, Jhuti, his toys, his cage, me and my sis and get to know a little better the diverse shades of Kaju’s personality.*

Hope you all enjoy these videos.


----------



## kajupakhi

First let me start with some general videos of Kaju...I just can't get enough of his dear sweet little face...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1A8d6QiGxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoomGQvETTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEBTRlEbm-Y


By the way, that's not how I talk to people in reality (its a good thing that most of you don't know my language, otherwise I would be way more embarrassed!!!)...anyway here's Kaju on a windy Saturday afternoon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU3Ky57vOuo


----------



## kajupakhi

Play time in Kaju's world...In the video below, Kaju is playing with his favorite toy...his heart shaped bell swing!!!
He usually played with it everyday at 8:00 am in the morning. Unfortunately, I had to remove it from his cage last year after he started having his beak problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EsNw8B2s8


His next favorite toy are the mirrors...he does all sorts of weird things with it. Here are some videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FxUHKsSuTk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnxmjwmkU8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK6qJujTR1Y



He also loves to play with paper strips and paper tent!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nclkfaKQYag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEdio4KgnE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOwX9FZn9Us


----------



## kajupakhi

Another lighter side of his personality is his comical nature which made Kaju really special. There is something very weirdly comical and clownish about him. So he always keeps us laughing with his strange ways. Here are some such videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krbxlTZdm2o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAR42v3mfcI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9j7_cGyhh8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me2bKNQ3xNg



Here's a video where I am making a complete fool of myself!!!!! and you can tell who is more mature between me and kaju...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBn2_N0A7k



...and here's one where my sis is making a fool of herself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VJtSaey1i4


Did you know that Kaju HATES HIS OWN PICTURES!!!! PARTICULARLY HIS EYES!!!! He can get really violent when ever I show him the pics that were taken after we found out about his beak problem. The videos below were taken when he was comparatively calmer. Sometimes he gets so mad at these pics, that he attacks and bites his own eyes in the pic!!! HE JUST HATES THEM!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8y0rPXNhkM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwhpx9cF8zs


----------



## kajupakhi

And here's our sweet, gentle and highly pampered little birdie!!! Its amazing, how completely he trusts us!!!

Sis and Kaju...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2uTSbYOpl4

and that's me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qX5cbpUNXs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b3ysANL1vQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk6UIYxlhAw



pigeon pamper...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep8ixqsMFtY


----------



## kajupakhi

Well, Kaju can sometimes be really mean and selfish!!! He used to bite us really hard till he started having his beak prob. He does not like to share is toys with other birds and grabs the best spot. He can be a very aggressive male...

Here’s a video where he is getting territorial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DP9QCD-d2k



One day our neighbor brought her squab to our house and I put him in Kaju's favorite toy, his heart shaped swing...Thinking that I gave his swing to this newcomer, he quickly jumped into the other swing in his cage to take possession of it and stayed there the whole day, even though the squab left only after a few mins!!!! And he was mad at me for 2 days!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCmLcEdnI_E


Usually around 11:00 AM our maid takes our bird to the bathroom for their daily shower. But one day it was really hot and they did not want to wait and so started bathing with whatever little water they could get in their drinking cup!!! And Kaju took the best spot and would not move from there!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVwPR_ZNCdY


----------



## kajupakhi

And here's Kaju's residence


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfn0ikWgIGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRTSdtVlUnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZmQENWQOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5THZFvoBVw


----------



## kajupakhi

Here are some videos of all my birds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiEoRZQ3hXs

Pretty Jhuti is really weight conscious…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zcKju92MUw

and here’s her bathing and riding swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAmxjnFICI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaosJ0E2y0

here’s Chotu/Peppy taking his bath…its always a fun day for them when they get a bowl of water and can bath inside their cage!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gQZIY64y2Y&feature=related


----------



## Victor

Hi Kajupakhi, It is so good to see you posting! I truly loved the videos of your birds especially of your dear sweet Kaju!

Here is a birthday wish for Kaju!

Happy 8th Birthday Kaju, and many, many more!


----------



## Skyeking

Happy 8th Birthday Kaju!  

I hope you had a wonderful day and many more.

He certainly is quite a celebrity!!!! I enjoyed the video's. Both birds are so cute!

Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, 

HAPPY HATCH-DAY, KAJU!!! 

Just take it one day at a time and let's go for nine years, now!

Pidgey


----------



## kajupakhi

Lots n Lots of Thanks and cooes from Kaju to
Victor, Treesa, Pidgy...and Lovely card Victor!!! thanks a lot for it.

Normally Kaju gets special treats on his birthday, but this time, due to his beak probs, we did not give him anything different from his usual diet.
But he did have a great day!!!

KAjupakhi


----------



## TAWhatley

Happy, Happy Hatchday, Kaju! May you have many, many more. I really enjoyed the videos!

Terry


----------



## mr squeaks

Squeaks and I are flying in to wish you a

*MOST WONDERFUL BIRTH/HATCH DAY, KAJU...AND MANY MORE!!*

Kaju DOES have such a sweet face...what a delightful pij!

Sending love, hugs and scritches

Shi & Squeaks


----------



## Flying_Pidgy

wow awesome!! happy hatchday!!!! i enjoyed all your videos!


----------



## kajupakhi

Thanks Terry, Mr Squeaks and Flying Pidgy...Kaju cooes to you!!!


----------



## Flying_Pidgy

kajupakhi said:


> Thanks Terry, Mr Squeaks and Flying Pidgy...Kaju cooes to you!!!


oh that reminds me, his coos sounds like one of my previous birds


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Kajupakhi

It is so nice to hear from you again and know that Kaju is still doing well.

You know, the one thing that comes through from all your wonderful videos is the great love between you, Kaju and your sister. You could do a compilation of those videos and have one of the most effective promotional tools ever about how wonderful, funny and gentle pigeons can be. I'll bet even the most hardened pigeon hater would see them in a new light. 

The video of your sister reading to him was especially cute.

I hope you have been able to visit him as often as you can.

Again, thanks for sharing these great videos.


----------



## Lovebirds

Boy, I missed all of this last night!! What GREAT videos........I agree with Maggie...........even the most vile person would HAVE to see what funny, sweet little birds these guys can be. I spend quite a bit of time on YouTube and have never seen any of these videos. They were LOTS of fun to watch. That Kaju is quite the spoiled little birdie. Lucky him and lucky you.


----------



## kajupakhi

Flying_Pidgy said:


> oh that reminds me, his coos sounds like one of my previous birds


WOW!!! Then Kaju n ur Pij should meet up!!!


----------



## kajupakhi

Lady Tarheel said:


> Hi Kajupakhi
> 
> It is so nice to hear from you again and know that Kaju is still doing well.
> 
> You know, the one thing that comes through from all your wonderful videos is the great love between you, Kaju and your sister. You could do a compilation of those videos and have one of the most effective promotional tools ever about how wonderful, funny and gentle pigeons can be. I'll bet even the most hardened pigeon hater would see them in a new light.
> 
> The video of your sister reading to him was especially cute.
> 
> I hope you have been able to visit him as often as you can.
> 
> Again, thanks for sharing these great videos.


Glad u liked the videos... n thanks for the idea of compiling these videos to promote pro-pigeon feelings!!! its n excellent idea!!

Yeah!! I like that video of my sis n kaju very much as well!!!
U know something...my sis does not even know that she is in youtube   
she is going to kill me when she finds out about this video...it was never meant to be seen by anyone else except me n my sis, i,e when we grow old and nostalgically remember kaju n our good old days together!!!...but since its so cute, i wanted to share it with u guys while celebrating his birthday  

No I have not been able to visit Kaju since I left India last March. I was supposed to go this Dec but got stuck at work...will visit him as soon as my project gets over. unless ofcourse these is an emergency and kaju needs me urgently...
My sis however visited him twice since i left and she is going again in Jan.


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## kajupakhi

Lovebirds said:


> Boy, I missed all of this last night!! What GREAT videos........I agree with Maggie...........even the most vile person would HAVE to see what funny, sweet little birds these guys can be. I spend quite a bit of time on YouTube and have never seen any of these videos. They were LOTS of fun to watch. That Kaju is quite the spoiled little birdie. Lucky him and lucky you.


am sorry I posted these videos so late in the evening...actually it took me quite a while(about 3 days) to make and upload these videos...these are short clips of very looooooong home videos of Kaju made over the yrs...we have many such cds, and they were never meant to be put up on the net...but I really wanted to share it with u guys and celebrate his b'day.
They have been put up in youtube just 2 to 3 days back...that's why u never saw them before.

Yes, Kaju is a HIGHLY PAMPERED bird and has been that way since his childhood!!! and he knows it very well and has to a some extend become spoilt!!!


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## Reti

Happy belated birthday Kaju

I so enjoyed the videos. He is the most adorable pij and deserves to be spoiled. 
Thanks for sharing them.

Reti


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## kajupakhi

Thanks Reti!! always love to hear good things about my birds!!


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## Pidgey

Well, just got an email and Kajupakhi's back in India visiting. The Internet there has been real shaky but she finally got an email out after three weeks. Here's an excerpt about Kaju's beak:

"I just wanted to inform you of Kaju's condition...this is the first time I am seeing him since I left last year when his condition was really bad...But I am very happy to say that now he has REALLY IMPROVED A LOT !!!!! Much beyond my expectation. 

1. HE is eating REMARKABLY WELL, with so much ease and speed as if nothing ever happened to his beak!!!!...although he misses on some of the smaller seeds due to his beak deformity, but he eats till he is full...and there are NO STICKY SALIVA or blood to be seen anywhere, his mouth looks dry with normal amount of saliva. 

2. Although his beak is still deformed with an overgrown upper beak, but its much better than what it was like last year. His lower beak is strong and hard...not woppy and soft like it was last year and the gap between the lower and upper beak is much less now. 

3. The yellow tissue type growth still grows and peels off and its quite discomforting for him and he always rubs it with his tongue, i guess it itches...how I wish that would stop too, then his condition would become pretty much normal...but THE AMOUNT AND THE GROWTH RATE OF THAT GROWTH HAS REDUCED A LOT!!! 

4. One thing that worries me and has become more severe this year is the fact that Kaju has developed small bald patches on the left side of his face, just underneath his eyes and near left mandible(He already had little bit of that patch last year as well...u can find it in his old pic). He often scratches these spots, specially when eating...seems like the itches from the yellow growth extends to these areas... he seems to love it when I scratch him in those areas as well...I looked deep inside his mouth but did not find anything that would create the bald patches...I also tried to touch and feel any abnormal lump with my finger, but did not find anything...any idea what's going on? I think scratching is creating the bald patches"

Under the circumstances, I think the bird's doing pretty well to this point. There are obviously plastic changes that are what they are, but that's life.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Pidgey, thanks for passing this along. My heart jumps in my throat every time a "special" pigeon thread pops up and what a relief to find things are going so well. And, Kaju is definitely special.


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## kajupakhi

Hi everyone,

I have been in India for some time now, but due to heavy monsoon rainfall at this time of the year, its difficult to get internet connection easily or for a long time so I could not post anything about Kaju's condition earlier...but Kaju is doing REALLY WELL and I am soooooo happy for him...Pidgey has already written about his condition in details(Thanks a lot Pidgey!!), and I have nothing more to add to it. I will post videos of Kaju's beak when I get back to USA.
Once again thannk you all for all your support, help and prayers!!! We could not have done it without you guys!!

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Lady Tarheel said:


> Pidgey, thanks for passing this along. My heart jumps in my throat every time a "special" pigeon thread pops up and what a relief to find things are going so well. And, Kaju is definitely special.


Hi Maggi,

Its very sweet of you to think of Kaju as "Special"!! He is SURELY VERY SPECIAL TO ME!!! and I am so greatfull that he is doing ok...I am at peace now that Kaju is no longer suffering badly. I will post pics/ Videos when I get back

KAjupakhi


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## kajupakhi

Hi Guys!!

*...and today Kaju turned 9!!!!!! 
HAPPY HATCHDAY/B'DAY TO KAJU*

and as promised I am here are some videos taken in July 08 where u can see how well he eats now and how much the beak looks better than it did before...

Thanks again for all your help!!

Here's a video taken just for u guys where Kaju is being a good boy, posing nicely just for you folks so u can have a good look at his beak and weight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW-SEtvRnH4

...here are 2 videos of him eating...if the seeds are big enough, he manages to pick them pretty well...there are some misses ofcourse!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zlXtuAkTuw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27KkIogOlRY

..the last one is where he is being the best dad to 3 plastic eggs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VvdU7OMYqU

Thanks
KAjupakhi


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## Maggie-NC

Wow, it is so hard to believe just how sick Kaju was compared to how he is now. He looks and acts wonderful. Your family in India is doing a super job of caring for him when you're gone.

I loved all four videos. None of ours would ever sit so nicely on a set of scales! It did my heart good to see him being able to eat without any problem and he looks like he has a good appetite too. My favorite was the last where he is trying so hard to put that third egg under him - so cute.

Thank you so much for posting these videos. I enjoyed them tremendously.

And, tell that sweetie - Happy Birthday, Kaju and many, many more!


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## TAWhatley

Happy, Happy Hatchday to you, Kaju! You are such a handsome fellow! I really enjoyed the videos and especially the one where Kaju is being such a diligent Dad!

Terry


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## Skyeking

Happy Birthday Kaju!

That is quite a milestone for this wonderful bird, and a testimony to you for all you have done for him.

I hope he has quite a happy day and a continued wonderful happy and healthy life with you and the rest of his family.


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## Reti

Happy Birthday Kaju

Great videos. He has the most adorable face and I see he loves modeling. 

Reti


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## Lin Hansen

Happiest of birthdays to Kaju!!!

Linda


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## kajupakhi

Lady Tarheel said:


> Wow, it is so hard to believe just how sick Kaju was compared to how he is now. He looks and acts wonderful. Your family in India is doing a super job of caring for him when you're gone.
> 
> I loved all four videos. None of ours would ever sit so nicely on a set of scales! It did my heart good to see him being able to eat without any problem and he looks like he has a good appetite too. My favorite was the last where he is trying so hard to put that third egg under him - so cute.
> 
> Thank you so much for posting these videos. I enjoyed them tremendously.
> 
> And, tell that sweetie - Happy Birthday, Kaju and many, many more!




Thanks Maggie !! and LOTS n LOTS of thanks on Kaju's behalf!!
Yeah!! Now that Kaju has become a bird with special needs, My mom is trying soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard to make sure that Kaju gets all the special treatment he needs..what would I have done without her!! I am so grateful to her for everything she does for Kaju and to make my life in US easier!! Glad u liked the videos...he has really come a long way!!

Regarding the video with 3 eggs...its strange, Kaju wants to be a dad soooo desperately that he will sit on any egg(Chicken's, Duck's egg or plastic egg), he even knows that there is no way he laid them coz he is not allowed to mingle with my other birds (To improve his beak and prevent beak injuries due to fighting/billing with other birds)...I don't put eggs in his cage coz I don't want the poor bird to have false hope about having babies...I just gave him these 3 plastic eggs to take the video...it was just for 5 mins or so n thn I took it away...I know how cute he looks when he sits on his eggs that I wanted to have some memories of it before he is no longer with us


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## kajupakhi

TAWhatley said:


> Happy, Happy Hatchday to you, Kaju! You are such a handsome fellow! I really enjoyed the videos and especially the one where Kaju is being such a diligent Dad!
> 
> Terry


Thanks Terry from me and on Kaju's behalf...glad you liked the videos...he looks so cute when he sits on eggs...during his early days he would sit with a twig in his mouth, making him look even cutier. Does that mean anything in the pigeon world? He does not do that anymore


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## kajupakhi

Trees Gray said:


> Happy Birthday Kaju!
> 
> That is quite a milestone for this wonderful bird, and a testimony to you for all you have done for him.
> 
> I hope he has quite a happy day and a continued wonderful happy and healthy life with you and the rest of his family.




Thanks Treesa and lots of thanks on Kaju's behalf...yes he has come a long way in the last 2 yrs...My eyes are all moist as I write this, just remembering of all we went through 2 years back...I had very little hope that he would still be with us today!! Frankly I could not have done this without the guidance of all the experts here...THANKS AGAIN FOR EVERYTHING!!


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## kajupakhi

Reti said:


> Happy Birthday Kaju
> 
> Great videos. He has the most adorable face and I see he loves modeling.
> 
> Reti


Thanks Reti and lots n lots of thanks on Kaju's behalf. Glad you liked the videos...YEP HE LOVES MODELLING!!!!! He is perfectly comfortable in front of cameras and web-cam since he was little. Infact he loves to watch his own videos in webcam after I record it...I don't think he understands that its him and he thinks its some other pigeon inside the webcam...but atleast he recognizes that its a bird in there!!!


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## kajupakhi

Lin Hansen said:


> Happiest of birthdays to Kaju!!!
> 
> Linda


Thanks Linda on Kaju's behalf!!


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## Victor

Oh my goodness Kaju, how you have come a long way. Kaju is looking great. I loved the You tube videos, especially the one of him in "daddy mode". So adorable. Sending warm thoughts and love to the both of you!


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## Pidgey

HAPPY BIRD-THDAY, KAJU!!!

You're lookin' good--keep it up!

Pidgey


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## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> Oh my goodness Kaju, how you have come a long way. Kaju is looking great. I loved the You tube videos, especially the one of him in "daddy mode". So adorable. Sending warm thoughts and love to the both of you!


Thanks a lot Victor for all your warm thoughts and wishes!! yep kaju has indeed come a long way...He scared the hell out of us 2 yrs back...I am so glad that he is still around, healthy and happy. He is really adorable in his daddy mode!!

How is tooter doing?


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## kajupakhi

Pidgey said:


> HAPPY BIRD-THDAY, KAJU!!!
> 
> You're lookin' good--keep it up!
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks a lot Pidgey and lots n lots of huggs and kisses on kaju's behalf for always being there...yep, he does look much, much, MUCH better now!!


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## Victor

Thanks for asking...


Tooter is doing just great. He has mellowed out over the last year but is still the "King" of the roost here!

All the others are just fine too. I am happy (and I bet they are too) that the major fall season moult is over .

We are all almost ready for winter. In fact,I am installing the last Plexiglas pane on the coop. We cleaned out their home last few days ago and scrubbed all the cages.

They are out bathing right now.


I can't believe how great your wonderful Kaju is doing. I know you are proud of this wonderful bird.


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## kajupakhi

Victor said:


> Thanks for asking...
> 
> 
> Tooter is doing just great. He has mellowed out over the last year but is still the "King" of the roost here!
> 
> All the others are just fine too. I am happy (and I bet they are too) that the major fall season moult is over .
> 
> We are all almost ready for winter. In fact,I am installing the last Plexiglas pane on the coop. We cleaned out their home last few days ago and scrubbed all the cages.
> 
> They are out bathing right now.
> 
> 
> I can't believe how great your wonderful Kaju is doing. I know you are proud of this wonderful bird.




Looks like your birds are having a great time and are all set for a cozy, clean and comfortable home when its all freezing outside...that's great!!!

YEP!! I AM SOOOOO PROUD OF KAJU RIGHT NOW!!!


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## kajupakhi

*...and today Kaju turned 10 !!!!!! 
HAPPY HATCH DAY/B'DAY TO KAJU...I am SO LUCKY to have this precious little birdy still around and enjoying life ... he is so close to my heart all the time!!
* 
Well sad to say though, kaju's condition has worsened since the last time I visited him in 2008. His upper beak is growing a little faster (although at least his lower beak is still hard), the growth rate and amount of those yellow stuffs inside his mouth has increased again... also his mouth is filled with sticky saliva again and he has trouble eating again...
but at least as of now the situation is quite manageable and not as bad as it was 3 yrs ago...and he is eating well enough in spite of the difficulty in eating and he has not reduced the amount of food he is having... and he is not bleeding from mouth yet...and although he has become a litter quieter and naps a lot due to age, but he is otherwise still always alert, active and playful... hopefully he will bet better again instead of heading for the worse.

But tonight I want to celebrate the fact that he is still around and happy and engaged in life

Here are some videos taken of us together during my last visit to India in Oct 09.

The following video was taken on the 2ND day of my arrival ...we were having a very happy, peaceful and relaxing reunion...he LOVES head scratch and his company in itself is soooooooo relaxing for me!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/kajupakhi#p/u/1/ybxoB2ZTaRU

The following video was taken just minutes before I was getting ready to catch my flight to USA... a tender and sad farewell... very hard to say goodbye to him specially when not knowing if he will still be around during my next visit...

http://www.youtube.com/user/kajupakhi#p/u/4/ebvxpYzuQAU

The following video is the video of the inside of his beak...his problem area... usually its hard to film the inside of his mouth, I was only able to do so because when this video was taken, he had just had his free flight time and was panting after flying too much too quickly...since he was panting, so he opened his mouth and I was able to film it...this video is for reference purpose for someone who may have similar problem with their bird.

http://www.youtube.com/user/kajupakhi#p/u/3/o4aTjscs4Mg

Once again thanks everyone for ALWAYS being there for us ...Hope you guys enjoyed the videos...

Maggie... Missing you very much as I give this update on Kaju, knowing how much you would have liked to hear about him...always keep an eye on kaju and all our feathered friends...

KAjupakhi


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## Lin Hansen

Happy 10th Birthday to Kaju!!!

Glad to hear that despite his difficulties, he's still with us.

I was very glad and touched to see that you mentioned Maggie. I'm sure she's watching over Kaju and all the birds that were special to her.

Linda


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## Reti

happy birthday Kaju

10 happy years, it is amazing.
Sorry to hear he has problems again with his beak. Hopefully it will resolve again, at least for a while so he can eat more comfortable.
Great videos. Thanks for sharing.

Reti


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## Mindy

*Happy Birthday KAJU*

I haven't been able to read this entire thread but I'm working on it. Glad to hear he has made it to another birthday and may he have many more. min


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## kajupakhi

Thanks for your wishes Linda, Reti and Mindy!


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## kajupakhi

*In Loving Memory of Kaju (23rd Nov 1999 - 26th Feb 2013)…rest in peace dear old frien*

In Loving Memory of Kaju (23rd Nov 1999 - 26th Feb 2013)…rest in peace dear old friend…

Today morning around 9:30 am in India, Kaju my beloved pigeon passed away.
He seemed just fine an hour ago, being his true happy and active self, patrolling his cage, vocalizing and interacting with my Dad. Then my parents left for some grocery shopping and when they came back an hour later, they found Kaju dead in his cage. Looks like he had a heart attack and died suddenly. He did not suffer much…

Kaju was a 13 year old feral pigeon who lived with us since he was a baby. He was much more than just my childhood pet… he was my first love, over the years he changed my entire perspectives towards life…he was the one who introduced to the world of animals and taught me how to love and respect all critters…made me realize that human beings are not the only ones capable of having long-term, long-distance, loving , trusting and wonderful relationships…even pigeons are great in maintaining bond and relationships irrespective of the “Time and Space” factor. 

Kaju was born in our house on 23rd Nov 1999. For the first 3-4 years of Kaju’s life, Kaju, my sister and I were inseparable…Kaju was our pampered little baby and we did everything together…however eventually as we got older, we left home for job/studies and our parents started taking care of Kaju. 

What was always very touching about Kaju was that he never really forgot us for the 10 yrs of his life when we were no longer around . Everytime we paid him a visit he would display the same level of affection, trust and bond as he did when he was little…it was as if we never really left home (and him)… and I would think that 10 years is a REALLY long time to keep loving and trusting your humans the way Kaju did…such an amazing birdie…we are so fortunate to have known an individual like him in this lifetime…

He was a happy, active and playful bird, loved to shred papers, play with bells and mirrors, and enjoyed company of other birds as well. He was also very affectionate towards his humans, loved cuddles and scratches and attention. He was a brave little bird who loved adventures. He travelled a lot with my family (Travelling from Calcutta to Bombay in train and various road trips).Loved to watch nature. He was a wonderful bird who knew how to enjoy life and always had a very positive attitude towards life...an inspiration to me in many ways!

Other than some beak problems and recent cataract in one eye due to old age, he was more or less healthy …since he was still active even an hour before his death, I do not think he suffered much….

When I look back at this thread and everything we went through over the years and how he managed to live happily for all these years, I feel so proud of him...

Rest in peace dear old friend…as always, you will always remain very close to my heart no matter where you are … hope to be united with you again someday. 

With lots of love and Kisses,
Your family.


Here's a video of kaju getting some pampers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybxoB2ZTaRU


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## spirit wings

what a nice memorial, it brings tears to my eyes...


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## kajupakhi

spirit wings said:


> what a nice memorial, it brings tears to my eyes...


Thank You for your kind words!


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## Skyeking

I'm so sorry to hear the news. 

What a beautiful memorial. 

Kaju had a wonderful life with you.

Rest in Peace, Kaju!


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## Pijlover

My sincere condolences on your loss, rest in peace


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## Lin Hansen

I am so sorry to read of this. I have know of Kaju for so many years. He had a wonderful life with you.

Linda


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## Reti

R.I.P amazing Kaju. You were so much loved.

Reti


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## feralpigeon

Thank you for your update, Kajupakhi. This is a very touching tribute to Kaju, who was truly a family member in your household.

fp


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## kajupakhi

Thanks Skyeking,Pijlover, Linda, Reti, and FP!


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