# interesting Auction-gave me a OMG feeling



## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Huge sell out auction of racing pigeons i will never be able to afford but would love to have! many birds with proven histories, so i guess the best of the best, breeds true!

http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAuctionPro.asp

When you get there check out OAK HAVEN FARMS MEMORIAL SELL OFF!


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm gonna stop by the auction at the Lyndhurst Nj club it's only about 45 miles from me right on the other side of New York City. I wanna see what these birds look like in person. Maybe I'll even pick up a few birds if I like them. I aint looking at the 15,000 or 30,000 dollar birds even though I'd love to have Eurostar. I loved that bird ever since I first saw it. I even have it as the aviator on my Poker Stars account. LoL


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Buyer Beware.....*



DEEJAY7950 said:


> Huge sell out auction of racing pigeons i will never be able to afford but would love to have! many birds with proven histories, so i guess the best of the best, breeds true!
> 
> http://www.racingpigeonauction.com/Auction/XcAuctionPro.asp
> 
> When you get there check out OAK HAVEN FARMS MEMORIAL SELL OFF!


 The prices at which people are willing to part with something, be it a pigeon, a house, a car, or even a share of stock.....often has little to do with the value of the particular item. But, it often makes interesting conversation.

There is an old saying, that something is only worth, what someone is willing to pay for it, has a real element of truth to it. But it is also true that the price paid, may have very little to do with the real value or worth of something. 

It is simply a point of view, but in the vast majority of transactions involving a seller and a buyer, the buyer perceives a value, that the seller does not. So in other words, a buyer is buying into something, that the seller does not see. Every day in the stock market, sellers give up their ownership of their shares, thinking the price will head lower, while at the same time the buyer, buys thinking or hoping it will go up. 

As this relates to racing pigeons, the majority of sellers are not selling their best, they are selling what they view as less valuable to them. One man's junk, may be another's treasure....just like yard sales. My wife enjoys yard sales, she enjoys sorting through other people's junk, looking for some hidden gem of value, that the seller may not see. I view these type's of pigeon "yard sales" the same way.....most are going to be a waste of time, money and effort.....but there may be a gem in there, that the owner does not see. But, that would be the exception, and not the rule.

From my perception, really good pigeons, are really rare, and because of that, are rarely offered for sale....you must breed them yourself. And if you happen to find a fancier who says he is offering his very best....you are either being sold a bill of goods....or he is a fool, and soon won't have any "good" pigeons to speak of.


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## roxtar (Aug 21, 2006)

> From my perception, really good pigeons, are really rare,


You bring up an interesting topic there Warren. How, in your perception (since we're somewhat talking about the economics of the pigeon "business" here) does the law of supply and demand effect the pricing of these and other pigeons bred by what I like to refer to as "pigeon boutiques" (Ganus, Peeman etc.).... 

Does it ever make sense for a breeder to shut a good cock or hen down for a while so as not to flood the market with these birds' blood? It seems to me that soon enough there are going to be birds all over the place that have this blood in them, and not necessarily good birds either - birds that are in no way the types of racers or breeders that their pedigrees would suggest, and I think that would eventually degrade the value of the "foundation cock/hen's" genes.

Your thoughts?


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

I would love to hear warrens views also since warren has purchased many of the Belgium birds we all would like to have but as in my case will never have the money to get that sort of stock for a foundation!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> I would love to hear warrens views also since warren has purchased many of the Belgium birds we all would like to have but as in my case will never have the money to get that sort of stock for a foundation!


 Actually, not that it makes a whole lot of difference, but my various foundation birds are from Holland, or based on birds from this country.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Breeding Farm/Dealer Economics/Marketing 101*



roxtar said:


> You bring up an interesting topic there Warren. How, in your perception (since we're somewhat talking about the economics of the pigeon "business" here) does the law of supply and demand effect the pricing of these and other pigeons bred by what I like to refer to as "pigeon boutiques" (Ganus, Peeman etc.)....
> 
> Does it ever make sense for a breeder to shut a good cock or hen down for a while so as not to flood the market with these birds' blood? It seems to me that soon enough there are going to be birds all over the place that have this blood in them, and not necessarily good birds either - birds that are in no way the types of racers or breeders that their pedigrees would suggest, and I think that would eventually degrade the value of the "foundation cock/hen's" genes.
> 
> Your thoughts?


Hello Roxtar,

So far, the majority of my pigeon racing revenue has come from my cash winnings from money races, and not from selling pigeons. So my knowlege, experience and comfort level is geared from that perspective, as I really have little desire to become a pigeon dealer, although I do have a small number of affilate lofts and clients.

With that thought in mind, and for whatever my two cents on this subject may be worth, I think Roxtar, that the exact opposite of your suggestion may unfortunately, be true.

Say, for instance that someone has birds entered into various well known One Loft Race's, or Futurity's. Say this person has entered twenty birds in each event, perhaps a few under the wife's name, maybe some under another name, perhaps this person enters any number of these events. Then out of these dozens and perhaps dozens of birds, one hits a Jack Pot !! Do you think there will be any mention of those lost off the landing board, or on the training tosses ? No....I don't think so, but you can bet that some real slick magazine ads will appear in the Racing Digest concerning the winning event, and the particular bird which won, and who to call to buy birds. (Maybe such a win is worth another $150,000+ in pigeon sales)

I suspect, that the same holds true for the YB's sold as so called "Breeding Stock" (translation : unproven YB's) which sell for the big bucks....your various breeding farms/pigeon dealers will place their Big Name stud cock onto various hens, and produce dozens of YB's a year, (All Supers...which will all produce Winners of course) and then try to get these into as many lofts as possible. Now think about it, if you paid thousands for this "Breeding Stock" would you mate them to your duds ? I suspect not.....so if the breeding farm/dealer sells maybe twenty of these YB's from a single cock, and they in turn are bred to maybe 30 or 40+ top hens and cocks....producing two or three rounds each, or perhaps 90 to 120 YB's which are grandchildren to the orginal Big Name stud cock...what are the odds that someone, somewhere....ends up with one of these grandchildren which wins something, somewhere big ? I mean after one pays for Big Bucks breeding stock, and then pairs to their best hens/cocks...why go cheap now ? Enter these birds into Convention Races, Auction, One Loft Races, etc.
If and when a winner appears, the dealer will often offer many times or more of the orginal selling price to get them back, and then run another magazine ad, this time Son or Grandson of Big Name stud cock !  

Now, follow these numbers out and do the math for two or three seasons, sixty or so direct children ? Hundreds of grandchildren...now breeding, and it is easy to see how hundreds and hundreds of direct children and grandchildren out there breeding could add to the fame.....with the right marketing....even if only 5% ever really amount to anything,  and we are only talking about the decendents from a single Big Name stud cock, what if the farm/dealer had 3 or 4 or a dozen or more Big Name stud cocks !?

When one is looking at the magazine ads, and looking at all the children and grandchildren which have been winners, or produced winners, no one is asking about all the possible hundreds of other relatives which got lost on the training tosses, lost races, or bred duds. If you think that anyone's breeders, anywhere in the world, are only producing race winners or breeding great breeders.....then you are mistaken. I dare say, that in the vast majority of breeding pairs, even in the best lofts, are not producing birds even as good as the breeders themselves. And I will even go as far as to say, if the breeder really thinks that a particular YB is really a special World Class YB, then it will be held back, and not sold, reducing the chances that you score a winner, when you buy YB's from this Big Name stud cock.

So to answer part of your question Roxtar, I think there may be cases where the direct offspring of an aging stud cock may be held back, by placing artificially high inflated prices on these birds, with the real intention of driving up the prices of the more reasonably priced grandchildren which may be in full mass production with an almost unlimited supply. The supply and demand question in terms of pigeons, one thing pigeons can do very well is reproduce....so supply is almost unlimited, it is the marketing which drives the demand...greater the marketing...greater the demand....higher the prices and profits....and thus the slicker the marketing.


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Warren, you mentioned that most do not sell off their best birds, which i believe is true, so when an auction comes along with a complete sell out of all the persons stock isn't this the best possible place to get some "quality birds" since the whole loft is up for sale? Would it not be possible as in garage sales to find a gem in a young bird even if it has not proven it self as yet?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> Warren, you mentioned that most do not sell off their best birds, which i believe is true, so when an auction comes along with a complete sell out of all the persons stock isn't this the best possible place to get some "quality birds" since the whole loft is up for sale? Would it not be possible as in garage sales to find a gem in a young bird even if it has not proven it self as yet?


Great point Dee Jay, I think you are correct. A total loft sale would offer the best opportunities. Keep in mind however, that in such a situation you would want to go through the loft and "cherry pick" a few choice birds, before the auction. This is where the local guys or those able to deal directly with the principals will have the real edge. Also those who are "retireing" from the game, this is when some real honest to goodness great birds can be acquired at reasonable prices. I suspect that it would be rare that a total loft sale or auction, has not already been picked through by someone. Just like a yard sale, you want to be there 1st...... 

As far as finding gems among unproven YB's, this is often the least expensive way to go, if you are not paying thousands per bird. But, there is a heck of a lot of difference between going through a loft and picking through a bunch of YB's and buying a dozen or so....and buying one from a picture at an auction, for big bucks. Much better to get in the car and drive a few hundred miles to the loft itself...but that is me.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Warren,

I know I would get that OMG feeling if you EVER decided to sell any of your stock and I lived within a few hundred miles.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Warren,
> 
> I know I would get that OMG feeling if you EVER decided to sell any of your stock and I lived within a few hundred miles.


Treesa,

How very sweet and kind of you to say such a nice thing !  

Perhaps the tiny handful of birds which have been selected this year from among the hundreds to be part of the 2008 breeding team, should form the foundation of the newest line at SFL, to be called the "OMG" line ?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Treesa,
> Perhaps the tiny handful of birds which have been selected this year from among the hundreds to be part of the 2008 breeding team, should form the foundation of the newest line at SFL, to be called the "OMG" line ?


Sounds like a plan....


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

If you noticed, it's a MEMORIAL sale ... because Chris Peeman passed away not too long ago, and as far as I know, they are selling everything.

If anyone knows anything about the Peeman farm, you'll know that they have some of the best birds from all around the world. Chris's family were personal friends of the Janssen brothers, and he would go there to pick out birds for stock from time to time.

We have a fair number of stock birds from Oak Haven Farms, and have been very happy with the youngsters we've gotten from them. If you're looking to add some good bloodlines to your loft, you can't go wrong with these birds, IMHO.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

If I am not mistaken, there was a front page ad on the cover of the Racing Pigeon Digest a number of months before he died, when he announced a going out of business sale due to poor health. I would imagine he had been a net seller of pigeons for some time before his death, and was not activly engaged with importing. I would be very much surprized if he did not have a number of interested buyers come visit before this Internet Auction.

I hope for his family's sake, if there are any decent pigeon's still available, that his family get's a fair price. I would hate to think that fanciers would line up in order to rob a poor widow blind, for the sake of a bargain.......


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

His son Duncan was pretty involved in the business, and his wife has a pretty good head on her shoulders, so I don't think they'll get scammed in any way. They'd been trying to sell off most of the birds for a while, so I don't think there was a lot left (comparitively speaking). Never saw the prices drop much either, at least the ones they were selling directly on their website. We had our eye on a couple of them, but they usually sold pretty quickly, at top dollar.

No, I don't imagine they imported anything once he was diagnosed, but prior to that (about a year ago), he made annual visits to Europe to pick out birds for stock.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Well I never got around to going to that auction. But I went to an auction today at one of my local clubs. I went there figuring that the birds would go for more money then I was willing to pay for a pigeon. Because this guy spends big money on his pigeons but also wins big money with them in races here and across the country when he sends them out. So when I got there and the birds were his 2007 young bird team that he never let out. Because of time contraints he didn't fly his own birds this year he just sent some out. So I looked through them and picked out a few that I liked just by looks then I started looking at the pedigrees of the birds I liked. Well it turns out that the ones I really liked either had Dream Boy or Eurostar as grand parents or great grand parents. And 2 of the ones I got had both which is pretty cool because I always loved them 2 pigeons since the first time I saw them on the cover of some mag. LoL But I never thought I'd be able to get birds this closly related to them in my loft but now I do so I'll see what they do for me. But I wound up getting 4 birds 3 of them are out of OHF banded birds and the other one is out of GFL banded birds. One bird has Dream Boy as the Grandfather on the fathers side and Dream Boy again as the GreatGrandfather on the mothers side. I think thats the best one out of the 4 but I think all 4 of theses birds could throw out winners. And I know it's just a pedigree but you gotta have a better chance breeding a winner out of birds that are out of a family that have produced winners in the past then what I've been breeding winners out of not that the birds I got aren't good but they can always be better. LoL But I'll see what happens.


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