# I decided not to train a 2 month old pigeon



## de Vera Loft (Mar 11, 2009)

A friend gave me a 2 month old pigeon and I decided not to train him or her.. This bird came from a winning line of my friend... It's just a gift though!!! Now, my plan is to keep the pigeon and breed him/her in the future to have another line of youngsters for the race next season.. Is this a good idea??? If not, what should I do with this pigeon??? Is it possible to produce competitive youngsters for the race or it will be just luck is ever.. Please help!!!


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

de Vera Loft said:


> A friend gave me a 2 month old pigeon and I decided not to train him or her.. This bird came from a winning line of my friend... It's just a gift though!!! Now, my plan is to keep the pigeon and breed him/her in the future to have another line of youngsters for the race next season.. Is this a good idea??? If not, what should I do with this pigeon??? Is it possible to produce competitive youngsters for the race or it will be just luck is ever.. Please help!!!


Sound like a sound plan to me. If you are wanting a new cross for the birds you already have then that is the route I would go.

Dan


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

If you don't want to take the chance of loosing the bird from training then stick to your plan and keep him/her as just a prisoner. Personally, I would trap and loft train the youngster so that it's settled to your loft and that will eliminate any chance of loosing it. It's still young enough to resettle IMO.


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## Ed (Sep 18, 2008)

you got quite a choice to make lol
its kinda hard to know if the bird will produce winners if it hasnt been raced itself to prove how good it is.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

When it comes to racing pigeons it is all a gamble. If you did fly, train and race this bird and it turned out to be a good racer. That still would not mean it would be a good breeder. If you train and race it you stand "at least" a 50% chance you will loose it. By not flying it, it will get that chance to breed and what it produces will tell you if she was worth keeping or not. At least this way you will get the chance to find out!! If you want this bloodline not flying it is the right choice.

Ace


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

StoN3d said:


> you got quite a choice to make lol
> its kinda hard to know if the bird will produce winners if it hasnt been raced itself to prove how good it is.


It's hard to tell if any bird will produce winners in any case IMO. Some winners make horrible breeders and some non-winners only produce winners....I would say it's a toss up anyway you look at it. Even some of our experts in this forum can only assume.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> If you don't want to take the chance of loosing the bird from training then stick to your plan and keep him/her as just a prisoner. *Personally, I would trap and loft train the youngster so that it's settled to your loft and that will eliminate any chance of loosing it. It's still young enough to resettle IMO.*


I agree 100%......AT LEAST, break it to your loft.....you don't have to fly it all the time, or even let it out every time the other birds are out. Just teach it where HOME is and HOW to get back in that home..........


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

YES! Well put Henry. Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> YES! Well put Henry. Dave


Thanks Dave. I finally got one right! lol.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Dude! you get a lot right, remember, there are Many ways to do most stages/management subjects! I just happen to be VERY opinionated about the care of my Birds! LOL! Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

LUCKYT said:


> Dude! you get a lot right, remember, there are Many ways to do most stages/management subjects! I just happen to be VERY opinionated about the care of my Birds! LOL! Dave


Yes, and to have an opinion means that one truly knows and cares about their birds! Which is the case with you, Renee, Warren and a few others on this site.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Ouch! I prefer facts than opinions! That is why I test people's opinions and do "stupid" experiments. But if they turned out right, I have even more respect to that person. Because that person is wise!

I am 50/50 on what de Vera Loft is thinking of doing. In my "opinion" (LOL!) he/she will end up as pedigree breeder (please no offense--I am not saying that you are a pedigree breeder, but could end up with!). Statistically, if you believe in bell curve shape, most pigeons are average. I think only 10-20% are actually good birds.( I have decided in my loft that breeding birds should have earned that spot!) Now, even Jos Thone after breeding his champion birds ended up with only 1 good pigeon after breeding 10 youngsters.

In my "opinion" you most likely will breed "average" pigeons than "good" or "champion" ones.

Now if de Vera losses that bird and it happens to be a gift and breaks friendship, then he/she definitely has to keep the bird because something else is at stake! Perhaps to compromise just do what Henry, Dave and Renee say and perhaps loft fly that bird.

Opinions that turned out true are perhaps greater than facts because it shows wisdom which time and experience give.


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## de Vera Loft (Mar 11, 2009)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> If you don't want to take the chance of loosing the bird from training then stick to your plan and keep him/her as just a prisoner. Personally, I would trap and loft train the youngster so that it's settled to your loft and that will eliminate any chance of loosing it. It's still young enough to resettle IMO.


Thanks!!! I'll stick with your advise... Another thing, what is the advisable age for a pigeon to start breeding???


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I've been told to start them at exactly a year old before you let them have their first set of babies. You can if you want start as early 6-8 months depending on the maturity of your birds.


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

g0ldenb0y55 said:


> I've been told to start them at exactly a year old before you let them have their first set of babies. You can if you want start as early 6-8 months depending on the maturity of your birds.


One year is a good rule to follow. I let one young pair keep their first eggs and they were sorry parents. Lost one baby and fostered the other. Waited two more months letting them sit on dummy eggs before I let them try again, then they were mature enough to raise babies. If you let them mate, foster the eggs and give them dummies until they are a year old.

Just my opinion,
Tony


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have a bird the same age, how long befor i can start it in the settling cage?
Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Crazy Pete (Dave),
Start a new thread and tell us about these birds that you are talking about.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

de Vera Loft decided not to train a 2 month old bird, and every body said to settle it. I would like to know how long to keep the bird befor i can settle them, i baught 2 Houbens the same age.
Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> de Vera Loft decided not to train a 2 month old bird, and every body said to settle it. I would like to know how long to keep the bird befor i can settle them, i baught 2 Houbens the same age.
> Dave


You can start settling the birds right away if they are 2 months old. They are in no risk of getting lost during the trap training and settling cage phases. Just make sure the have plenty of time in the settling cage before you decide to let them completely out of the loft. I would recommend 3-4 weeks. This will give them ample time to get familiar with the loft and give you time to teach them to trap with your feed call.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Thanks, I've ha them for 4 days i'll put them out to settle if it ever stops raining.
Dave


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Sounds good. Keep us posted.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Will do, I only want to settle them incase some thing happens and they get out. They are next yrs breeders.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

That's a great reason for settling them!

Good luck!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> Ouch! *I prefer facts than opinions! *That is why I test people's opinions and do "stupid" experiments. But if they turned out right, I have even more respect to that person. Because that person is wise!
> 
> I am 50/50 on what de Vera Loft is thinking of doing. In my "opinion" (LOL!) he/she will end up as pedigree breeder (please no offense--I am not saying that you are a pedigree breeder, but could end up with!). Statistically, if you believe in bell curve shape, most pigeons are average. *I think only 10-20% are actually good birds*.( I have decided in my loft that breeding birds should have earned that spot!) Now, even Jos Thone after breeding his champion birds ended up with only 1 good pigeon after breeding 10 youngsters.
> 
> ...


How many "facts" are there really about pigeons ? And how many of these "facts" are really opinion handed down as the former ? Where is the official book of pigeon "facts" anyway ?

Odds are, the bird would produce average or typical offspring, wheather it was flown or not, wheather it was a winner or not. That should be a mathmatical "fact".

Only way to know if this bird is a great breeder is to breed from it. 

I prefer to race birds, before I breed from them, but that is not always possible, or practical. I own a daughter from the President, she was never raced, but has produced $15,000 in race winnings by way of her offspring. So there goes that idea that only race winners can produce race winners....

If you have a pair which produces 10-20% "good" pigeons...that is very exceptional by my way of thinking, depending on what you mean by "good". When you consider that the typical pigeon, never produces a "good" pigeon, again of course, depending on what you mean by "good".


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

So, warren... what is your point? the question was, Unless i miss read it was,
should i fly the bird or make it a Prisoner, and someone said, it is Young enough to Settle, so if they settle it, they might avoid the Risk of losing it, if it should happen to get out... Dave


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Warren,

The middle of a bell curve is what we call the average, right? The one on the right is above average. The one on the left is below average. The one on the extreme right are really above average. So if we race thousands of birds, those birds that win I think (10-20% placement ) are "good" because they fall on that particular curve. Now the word "good" obviously varies in our definition because it is possible that if we have only 10 birds, 1 or 2 is better than the rest. If we take 20 birds, we can say 1 or 2 birds are better than the rest so our definition of "good" changes. I mean it is possible that 1 or 2 birds from 20 birds is/are actually better than with the 10 birds so yeah what we mean by "good" is relative to the number of what we have. I do still think that 10-20% placement in a race against thousands of birds make that birds "good."

Now with breeding I think the mathematic still applies in that quite possibly if you breed 10 youngsters in one year from your breeder 1 or 2 are better than the rest of the babies. Now if we compare our good with other fancier's good, then perhaps it might end up with a different story. Your good bird may not be actually better than the other fancier's good or it could be.

With respect to pedigree I think it has merit as well. Breeding good birds with each other may end up with youngsters that are good as well, but not always. In other words, we have greater probability of acquiring good birds from good pairings. It doesn't, however, prevents us from getting average bird or even poor. Now the funny thing is that the average from our good breeders may actually are better than the "good" of other fanciers. There goes that relative concept of "good" again.

I'll say race them against other fanciers and the top 10-20% placement means your birds are good with that particular group. The data acquired will be the "facts."


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LUCKYT said:


> So, warren... what is your point? the question was, Unless i miss read it was,
> should i fly the bird or make it a Prisoner, and someone said, it is Young enough to Settle, so if they settle it, they might avoid the Risk of losing it, if it should happen to get out... Dave



My point....if there really is one, and if I can even come close to articulating it is this. 

There are what we might call "Generally Accepted Principals" and then there are "Facts" and then there are "Opinions". What I was trying to suggest to the poster who asked if he should stock, loft fly, or race a YB he got as a gift. Is that most of what will be offered here, is "Opinion", and those can, and often are, all over the place.

RodSD, offered what I considered an idea which may fall somewhere between an opinion and a fact. He provided a good explanation of the theory, and why he views it as a fact. I don't fault him with this theory of best to best, and using the race sheets as the measuring stick. 

I may have gone far afield, from the original question, as to what to do with this bird he got. I myself, follow a performance based selection process, so generally speaking, the best long term course of action, is to race every bird and judge it's performance. But, I have never convinced myself, that this is the only way, or indeed the best way, to produce a colony of Champion racers. There are what I consider "Issues" with this method, which do not make it a perfect system, and thus not really a fact. 

If simply breeding best to best, was the best way, or the only way to produce winners, then race results would not be what they are. Since there are a number of well known fanciers in the USA, who own a large number of National Ace Winners, which might be called some of the "best" and then they mate these birds to other "good" racing champs, to produce YB's for the One Loft Events. Now, if you review the dozen or so events that they enter birds into, and then add up the number of birds entered, and then at the end of the series of races, add up all of their winners or lack of winners...and what do you find ? A fairly average or typical if you will, % of winners.

If you use local club or combine events, then how do you figure in loft location, quality of loft, direction of wind on that particular race, handler skill, management, training, etc. etc. Is being the #1 bird, really make it the "Best" out of thousands ? That's the first problem.....the #2 issue, is how then do you explain the bird which is sent, week after week, but never is a 1st prize winner. How is that bird, compared on the Bell Curve ? Then #3.....how does one explain or account for the bird, which comes home, sometimes in the clock, sometimes not, week after week....and is so-so on the Bell Curve...but produces the #1 racers as offspring. There is a big catch 22.....

Then there are other numerous issues, what if you are using a highly inbred parental line, where racing performance has declined, but as breeders, when crossed onto another unrelated inbred line, produces the stuff which dreams are made of ?

I don't disagree with anything RodSD has suggested, only to suggest, that it needs to be presented as theory, and not documented facts, as I can offer examples, where some of these "Rules" or "Facts" are not always the case, and do not always hold true 100% of the time. At one time, I may have suggested that RodSD was 100% correct, that pairing the best performers to the best performers was the "correct" way to proceed....but the more I have learned, the more I realize, that there are things, as of yet, I can not fully explain or understand. 

So, I am suggesting, that the original poster, take everything we say, including me, with a grain of salt.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> How many "facts" are there really about pigeons ? And how many of these "facts" are really opinion handed down as the former ? Where is the official book of pigeon "facts" anyway ?
> 
> Odds are, the bird would produce average or typical offspring, wheather it was flown or not, wheather it was a winner or not. That should be a mathmatical "fact".
> 
> .


I think the key here is that the typical or average offspring in your loft is equal or better to the best offspring of someone else. There are some lofts who's culls are better than most peoples best. Every loft from time to time has bad birds, but through sound breeding practices one can decrease the odds of bad birds. 

One method that I use when selecting breeders that have not been flown is to look at their same sex siblings and look at their racing and breeding record. This way you can "save for stock" with a better chance of getting something good. A same sex sibling would be a better bet than say a random bird with a good pedigree. 

Breeding is like any gambling, if you can increase your probablility of winning then by all means do it. I forget who it was, but they brought in 20 birds off a good line, bred form them, selected the best and got rid of the worst. I try and choose only the top 10% out of my loft to breed. I use siblings, race winners, or parents from my top 10% finishers to bring back in as breeders. If I go outside for new blood they have better beat mine head to head in the races. 

Randy


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## Big T (Mar 25, 2008)

All I got to say is the Kentucky Derby just blew holes in a lot of people's theories, Just like a hawk in the wrong place can blow a race for a great bird. Too many variables in a race to come up with the facts. Strong wings, good brain, good eyes, and luck win races. You train and breed for the first three but pray for the luck.

God Bless,
Tony


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Warren,

Well put. Your arguments sound so eerily parallel to some discussions back when I was in college discussing probability and statistics. Unfortunately, I have forgotten most of them already. There is also this luck that can go in a question where luck is define as random probability. I definitely should restudy my math because I know that most of the questions we have about pigeon probability is there. I think statistics will even answer how much luck is really there or how much the real talent of the pigeon actually influences the results, etc. But because I spent 1 year studying that math, it would be a long review. You know if pigeons were bacteria it would have been easier. They just clone themselves!


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

RodSD said:


> Warren,
> 
> Well put. Your arguments sound so eerily parallel to some discussions back when I was in college discussing probability and statistics. Unfortunately, I have forgotten most of them already. There is also this luck that can go in a question where luck is define as random probability. I definitely should restudy my math because I know that most of the questions we have about pigeon probability is there. I think statistics will even answer how much luck is really there or how much the real talent of the pigeon actually influences the results, etc. But because I spent 1 year studying that math, it would be a long review. You know if pigeons were bacteria it would have been easier. They just clone themselves!


Good points.....and just to further muddy the water....fly a race this week....say 200 miles......and record the #1, #2, #3 etc. fly the same race the following week, and there will be a different listing in the race results. One bird likely will be the "Best" this week, and another the "Best" the following week. Most likely two different 1st Place winners....now these are considered the "best" although in both cases, the 1st Place Winner could be at the bottom of the race sheet in the week he was not 1st Place....but he or she, by many would still be viewed as one of the best. 

Then there is that 4th Place bird let's say...which ends up say 9th or 10th in both events. Depending on how one measures the performance, average speed, points, etc. The slower bird may be the most consistant...move the numbers around as you wish, my point is that the better bird, may have never won a 1st Place Prize. Or may have done poorly in the speed races, but really shined after the 300 mile mark. My point, is how one may measure such things, or the importance one may place on certain distances, could really complicate matters when one simply says best to best....depending on how they measure "best". An extreme example is pairing your 1st place 600 mile two day winner, with your 1st place 100 mile winner, may not produce what you were hoping for.

Now, I have gone so far off topic, I may need to moderate myself.....


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I have heard/read that our birds vary in condition week to week. They may win this week, but not be in form later next week so their performance weakens. The consistent bird that you are talking about may be sturdier so its health is not being affected much, thus the consistent performance. So health then is part of something we can label with good.

Sometimes I like to imagine that it makes sense actually( common sense). If the bird wins this week, it probably took more energy/effort from that bird so it needs to recover longer than say those less performing bird. Because those less performing birds didn't spend too much energy (they flew slower), they probably can compete again.

I think I may have read some articles either from Dr. Chalmers or Dr. Walker about pigeon recovery and it probably takes weeks or months before they recover fully from a race.


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