# brown



## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

Hi
I have a pair
The hen is brown and her mate is
Spread black.
1. What can i produce(color) from such a pair?
2.brown sex link- can i produce brown color on the first round from the brown hen ?
P.s 
Sorry for the bad english


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## Woodnative (Jul 4, 2010)

Do you know more history on her mate?? You know that he is blue spread (=black), but do you know what he carries on the other sex chromosome? That could also be blue but if he instead has a copy of brown there (hidden) than half thier babies could be brown. If he has two copies of blue than all thier babies will be blue (or black). The sons would later have the possibility of producing brown daughters......or you can mate the sons back to the brown mother to get browns of both sexes.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

I bought the male few weeks ago so i really don't know anything about him.
But i can see that the black color is not so intense. 
I will try to post his picture.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

a picture will be very helpful. If the cock is a spread, then 50% the babies will be spread. 

Well a brown hen cannot be sex-link. Sex-link would only occur only if your hen has the dominate base color and the cock has the weaker base color. red > blue > brown. If your hen is brown then there is no sex-linking. 

for example;

*Yes* sex-link: 
red hen x blue cock
red hen x brown cock
blue hen x brown cock

*No* sex-link: 
brown hen x blue cock
brown hen x brown cock
brown hen x red cock
blue hen x red cock

From your description, you may have a brown hen and a blue cock(a black spread is blue underneath). So no sex-link. My prediction is that all of the offspring can be either blue or brown. 50% chance they will be spread. 

Although, there are other sex-linking too. They are the dilute and almond gene.

Im carious, can your hen be dilute and not brown?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

sev3ns0uls said:


> a picture will be very helpful. If the cock is a spread, then 50% the babies will be spread.
> 
> Well a brown hen cannot be sex-link. Sex-link would only occur only if your hen has the dominate base color and the cock has the weaker base color. red > blue > brown. If your hen is brown then there is no sex-linking.
> 
> ...


Spread is dominant.
If the cock is split for spread, yes, 50% of the offspring will be spread

But if the cock is full spread ALL offspring will be spread.

Also IF the cock is split for brown 50% (male or female) will be brown.

If the cock is pure blue then there is no chance of a brown bird in the first gen.

Therefore;
if you get any brown offspring then the cock is split for brown.
if you get any non-spread offspring then the cock is split for spread.

It is a very good point brought up about the dilute. Dilute blue looks very similar to brown.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Spread is dominant.
> If the cock is split for spread, yes, 50% of the offspring will be spread
> 
> But if the cock is full spread ALL offspring will be spread.
> ...


Agree. if cock is **** spread, all kids will be spread. And if cock is hetero spread, 50% of the kid will be spread.

I was amusing the cock is hetero spread because DWOORY said *"But i can see that the black color is not so intense".* 

And yes, if the cock is split from brown, 50% of the daughter will be brown and 50% of the daughter will be blue. 50% of the son will be blue split from brown and 50% will be homozygous brown. 
And if the cock is not split from brown, then there wont be any brown bird.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

sev3ns0uls said:


> Agree. if cock is **** spread, all kids will be spread. And if cock is hetero spread, 50% of the kid will be spread.
> 
> I was amusing the cock is hetero spread because DWOORY said *"But i can see that the black color is not so intense".*
> 
> ...


Just clarifying all the possibilities for DWOORY 

I agree it sounds like it might be split for spread but you won't really know unless you know the parents or breed him.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Why waste time giving answers that may have no relevance? If the person doesn't know the answer to a question like this "brown" could be a lot things. I've heard ash red birds called brown, bronzes, dilutes, etc. Pictures are needed.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Print Tippler said:


> Why waste time giving answers that may have no relevance? If the person doesn't know the answer to a question like this "brown" could be a lot things. I've heard ash red birds called brown, bronzes, dilutes, etc. Pictures are needed.


ehhh because I am going with the assumption that he did mean 'brown', but someone else brought up a colour which is very easily mistaken for brown, which in my opinion is a fair point.

Unlike calling ash red brown which is simply lack of knowledge of phenotypes rather than misidentification of the actual bird.

I do not think it is a waste of time to answer the question he put.
If he is mistaken on the colour (which was not the original point of this question) of the bird then the thread will move on from there.

What's the problem?


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

By him asking what happens with a black breeding to a brown which is a rather simple question you have to question there genetic knowledge and their ability to accuritlity decribe what they have via text only.


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

now now, we are just giving DWOORY all the possibilities. Let not turn this into argument which is very off topic..because that is when we are not being relevance to the question.

Like LisaNewTumbler said that if the picture shows us a wrong color bird than brown, then we will move on from there.


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## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

There's no bad arguments here. I was only giving some advice. I don't care if you disagree. I just responded back showing the reason. I still believe in what I said. I'll make sure to make it clear next time I'm giving advice to state that this is my advice, for whatever it may be worth, to whomever may be reading.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

ooooooookay

Print Tippler maybe you are right about his knowledge but maybe not. Either way I think with someone who might not have a perfect understanding of English it is easier for them to take things as they come. 

also being able to identify a colour is different from being able to understand breeding, colour dominance and how genetics are inherited. So it may be one and the same topic to you, but some might find one part harder to grasp than another.

Be patient with newbies


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

I didnt mean to upset
1. I agree about the importance of pictures and i will post pics 
2. What i am trying to ask 
I read about brown being a rec trait
But then i read that it is also sex link
And that confused me.
I know that sex link hen will produce
Transfer the trait to her sons


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

DWOORY said:


> I didnt mean to upset
> 1. I agree about the importance of pictures and i will post pics
> 2. What i am trying to ask
> I read about brown being a rec trait
> ...


1. dont mind, no one is upset.

2.Yes, correct. Brown is a rec trait. *But only for cock bird*. He needs 2 doses(1 brown gene from mother and 1 brown gene from father in order to be a brown bird). 
On the other hand, hen are exceptional. They only require 1 brown dose from the father to be a brown bird. 

Brown can only be a sex-link if the cock bird is homozygous brown (2 brown dose) and the hen is either a blue or a red bird and *not* a brown bird. In this situation, all son will be blue or red (depend on which color hen is used) carrying the brown genes and all the daughter will be brown. 

There is another exception you can get a brown bird. When your cock birds is a split/carrying brown gene, 50% of the time of his daughters will be brown regardless to what the color the mother is. 

Sex-linking is just a convenient way for the breeder to determined the gender of the babies. It may be helpful in certain circumstance but sometime not. A bird that also have genes like grizzle, spread, rec. red, rec. white, etc may sometime fool you to determining what a baby sex or color are. 

yes, correct. Hen will give her (color trait) to his son only and *cannot give to her daughter*. Every cock bird has 2 (color traits). So every son will have 1 of each (color traits) each from his parents. 
The daughter on the other hand will only have whatever (color trait) the cock give her. 
For hen, what you see is what you get. A brown hen is brown base. a red hen is red base. a blue is a blue base. 

hope this help


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

Because ash red and brown are alleles i was thinking that mating ash red cock with brown hen can produce brown cock 
And now i know that it is not true.

Thanks for the your help


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

DWOORY said:


> Because ash red and brown are alleles i was thinking that mating ash red cock with brown hen can produce brown cock
> And now i know that it is not true.
> 
> Thanks for the your help


Well it still can be happen but only if the cock is split/carries the brown gene. Then all of the daughters will have 50% for being a brown bird and all the sons will be 50% being brown too.

Also i want to point out that you can easy tell if a ash red cock split/carries another color just by the flecks on its body. If there are blue or black flecks, that means the cock is a split from blue. If there are brown flecks, that means he is split from brown. If there are not fleck at all, then its a **** ash red no split (this mean its babies hens and cock will all be 100% red and no other color despite the mother color). 

And like i said before that if either of the parent birds has other modified genes such as grizzle, spread, recessive, etc; That can be a little confusing to determined what they will produces.

this is a very informative website. http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonGenetics4.asp
I learn a lot from there.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

HI
I posted 3 pics of the hen and one pic of her mate.

I consider the hen as brown
I want to be sure that the hen is brown and not dilute black


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

very nice looking birds. The hen may be a brown spread. Cock is a blue spread. So all the babies will be **** spread. They will produce all black birds. But if cock carries brown then all 50% daughters brown spread and 50% of the son will be brown spread. 

Are then dragoon breeds?


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

they are new purchase so i dont konw their pedigree.

1. do you think they are dragoon ? 
2. from this pair all the chickling will be blue\black spread split for brown ? 
p.s
i used to raise zebra finch and their genetic was much easier


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I also think they look like dragoons

If they are what they look like - and the cock isn't hiding brown genes

Then yes all young will look black but the male offspring will carry brown.

With pigeons the daughter inherits from the father
the son inherits from the mother and the father

So the daughters can only inherit the black colour

the sons will inherit both. Black being more dominant will be the one to show.


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## DWOORY (Oct 10, 2013)

The bad thing is that i still have alot to learn (genetic and homers) 

thanks for time and Patience you (both) helped me alot


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

no problem 

Post pics of the babies later!!

Genetics are a headache until you get used to them, but it does start making sense eventually 

Breeds are another matter! There are so many hundreds I know I haven't even scratched the surface of what exists!


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