# Loft Advice



## learning

O.K. folks here goes. I think a little background is neccessary here. I am starting back into racing after about a 30 year hiatus from the sport. My goals are not just to become a successful flyer but also to become a skilled and consistent breeder of the highest quality birds possible. Right now, I am at the construction stage for my loft. The plan below is the result of about a dozen other attempts. My lot is layed out in the middle of dense woods so I have had to remove about 20 trees. The lot is sloped so I will be building the whole thing on a platform. It will be about 12 inches off the ground in the back and about 7 feet high in the front. The roof will be white translucent roofing to maximize the natural light. Ventilation will be from grated panels in the floor and vents out the back of the roof. I will have exhaust fans in the ceiling to increase circulation as needed.

The "L" shaped design is because of the shape of my lot. I don't have a lot of available space on the sides. The large breeding area will hold up to 24 pairs of breeders. The three individual breeding pens will be for special pairs that I must be sure there is no accidental out breeding. I could also use these areas for issolation or quaratine areas if needed. Next to the individual pens is an area for the breeding hens during the off season. All of these breeding areas have access to and aviary that is 4 feet wide and 6 feet high. The racing side consists of the widowhood hens section followed be the actual widowhood loft that will have 24 boxes. Next comes a section that I am reserving for some white birds as my wife is interested in getting into the dove release business for weddings and funerals and such. The young birds get three sections The outside two so I can separate the sexes and the middle section as a "playpen" so I can use it as and extra motivator as the season goes on. All of the racing sections have access to a 4 foot wide landing board/aviary. Some folks call this a California Style landing board. There is an 8 foot deck that goes around the front of the loft.

Now, before everybody says I am crazy and that this is way overboard, let me explain. Once this is built, I will not be in a position to add on to anything. Local ordinances dictate that I am allowed only one additional out building and that it can not exceed 900 square feet. Because of this I am forced to plan ahead for all of my future needs now. I realize that this loft will sit mostly empty for several years as I build my own family of birds, but I really have no choice. O.K. now with all that it mind, go ahead and chew it up for me. What do you folks think I could do better or different to maximize the health and well being of my birds? I would really appreciate any advice here. Like I mentioned earlier I have already been through about a dozen drafts so one or two more won't hurt!

Thanks In Advance,

Dan
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## Lovebirds

Hello Dan...............I don't think you've gone overboard at all. You are doing exactly what every fancier should do if they have the means and that's PLAN AHEAD. And it sounds like you've done just that. Don't know if you've been to our web site and seen our loft (sorta sounds like maybe you have LOL). Our biggest mistake was not planning for the OB race team, therefore forcing us to have to build another loft a year after finishing the big one. I'll tell you from our experience what we would do different if we could. One, there is a section for every breeder and flyer that we have but we really don't have anywhere to put "extra" birds. I would love to have a building or section to just throw any extra birds we have in. Wouldn't matter about separating sexes or anything, just one more extra space. Here is one reason why......our widowhood loft will hold 15 pairs of birds. We have 10 pairs right now and are flying our last race today so I anticipate ending the OB season with 10 pair. We have 75 young birds. Surely to goodness we'll have more than 10 birds left at the end of the YB season. Now the dilemna............suppose we have 25 or 30 left? What do we do with all those birds? I know a lot of fanciers would say "get rid of some" but I have a hard time doing that. Maybe you won't and so you may not face the problem. I could give away/sell a few but 20 birds? And then you face it again the next season and the next. One other thing, you're pictures are a little small and hard to make out but I can get the gist of them. Are all of your aviaries across the back of the loft? What direction is that? The reason I ask is that our individual breeding pens are across the back of the loft facing NW. We raise Jan, Feb and March babies. When that north wind starts blowing, it's cold as heck in our loft and that wind just blows right through. Many days, I have to close up the back of the loft, which cuts down on some ventilation and the birds HATE being locked in like that. Just a thought. Other than those two things, I think you've pretty much got it covered. Any chance of making your pics bigger? My husband tried saving them and enlarging, but it distorted the pics so that didn't work.


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## learning

*Thanks lovebirds*

Yea, I must admit your loft and a few others did influence me quite a bit. I just love your site by the way. As far as the aviaries accross the back, they face NW but the entire loft site is cut out of a dense forest so there are dense trees back there that act as a wind barrier. Also, we have our cold nights down here but I don't think we would get near as much bad weather as you would in Virginia.

As far as the picture size goes, I really struggled with how to do this. This site restricts the size of the attachments so I had to reduce the size of the pictures to accomidate that. How do you suggest I can improve on this? The original photos are about 1 meg.

Anyway, thanks so much for your suggestions and keep updating your site. I visit it every day!

Dan


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## Lovebirds

The only thing I know to do with the pictures is not shrink them as much. One other thing I forgot to mention is this...........when we built our loft, we put in the three YB sections for the same reason you mentioned. Our first year flying, we had the sexes separated and tried the "motivation" thing the first three races. Didn't work..... . Don't know if you've been to the Red Rose site or not but Steve and Linda came down here the fourth week end and Steve gave us some good pointers cause to be honest, we didn't have a clue..LOL. Our first three races we were at the bottom of the sheet. Steve said, "Renee, put those YB's together and let them do what they want to do". I did, and that week end we won our first race. We went on to win one more race and got two second places. He told us that trying a "widowhood" system on YB's is to hard on them. Sort of like teenage boys, instead of young adult men. They don't have the control or whatever. So, since then, we've never used the three sections for what they were intended for. Just have LOTS of room for the YB's. I'm not saying don't fly your YB's this way because a lot of fanciers do and it's works for them. It just didn't work for us and was really a whole lot of extra work. Because we raise such early birds, they do start mating and laying eggs way before race season starts so we have that to contend with but it's worked ok for us. If you haven't been to the RED Rose web site, have a look. www.redroselofts.com


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## Skyeking

learning said:


> As far as the picture size goes, I really struggled with how to do this. This site restricts the size of the attachments so I had to reduce the size of the pictures to accomidate that. How do you suggest I can improve on this? The original photos are about 1 meg.
> Dan


Actually, this site allows a maximum of 100 kb's, which is much larger then the pics posted. Try to reduce your pics down less then you did before.


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## learning

Both of the pictures are right at 100 kb. I tried not reducing them as much but the site wouldn't take them. Sorry for the fuzzy pictures.

Dan


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## Skyeking

Try uploading them seperately.


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## learning

Sorry, no luck. It still won't upload.


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## learning

*Try as a JPEG*

Let me try this. I saved the image as a JPEG instead of a bitmap. Hopefully this will be better.
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## Skyeking

Yep, that is one of the file types that can be uploade, sorry I didn't mention that.

think you are going to have some very happy birds when they move in!  

I love the design and the fact that you are building for the amount of pigeons you are GOING to have, not the amount you are STARTING with.


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## learning

*Thanks*

Thanks for the kind words Tereesa. I really don't have a choice. If I don't plan ahead I will be sunk in 5 years. The one thing that seems to be universal from every article I have read and every fancier I have talked to is DON'T OVERCROUD YOUR BIRDS! With this plan I should be able to raise about 70-80 young birds per year, keep 24 pair of widowers, and keep about 26 or 27 pair in the stock lofts. With these numbers it should give each bird about 2 square feet of floor space. The articles I have read talk about no less than 1 1/2 square feet. I would rather error on the side of conservatism. Besides, that is more than enough birds to keep me busy!

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## Lovebirds

That is very nice. Can't wait to see it completed.

No aviary for the widowhood loft?


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## learning

Thanks for the words of encouragement. The widowers will actually have the entire far end of the main landing board/aviary. They will trap through the far trap in the doll house view. If you folks can think of anything else please feel free to comment.

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## hillfamilyloft

Looks like a great plan. I was not a fortunate as you. My wife did not see the need for such an investment. I have made the most out of my converted goat pen. The only suggestions that I could make is maybe to make some of the walls removable partitions. This would allow you to keep your outside structure intact and allow you to move internal walls. This could allow you to alter your flying sections as needed. May use removable doweled partitions. This could allow you to have larger sections when needed, ie. young birds. you could also make alterations to the loft without getting a building permit. I have seen a trend from many to go to individual breeding pens. Your plan has only three. Just a thought. Lovebirds is a great site with great lofts. Try and make things as self cleaning as you can. Looks like a potential for a lot of poop. I have a dozen pairs and that is plenty of birds for me. Keep fewer birds and you could live in one of the sections when the wife kicks you out of the house. Ha Ha
Randy Hill
hillfamilyloft


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## learning

*Good Point Randy!*

You make several good points, especially the one about the wife! Actually she is all for it. She is fascinated by the dove release business and I figure if it helps buy a bag of feed here or there, all the better. The poop issue will be dealt with by use of the Red Rose Lofts plan of the "poop shoots". All of the boxes and perches will have drawers to catch the crap so to speak, and raised grid floors so the birds won't be walking around in it all the time. Also, whatever does get to the floor is the responsibility of my 10 year old son! Just kidding, I know it will be work no matter how I set it up.

At least it will be mostly empty for the first few years, (I will be starting with just a few pairs), so I can get used to how things will work out. You are not the first person to mention the moveable partition idea, (huh Warren!). That is something I am definitely looking into. Thanks for the great suggestions!

P.S. If you haven't checked out Red Rose Lofts site you should do it. Great lofts with some neat ideas and articles.

Dan


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## learning

*Dowelled Partitions*

Oh, I forgot in the last post. Randy, in your post you mentioned dowelled partitions. I would really like to use these on most of the interior walls. Is there any place you can get these prefab or do you have to make them custom yourself? Seems like a lot of work. Sure would like to save all of those damaged feathers from the wire mesh stuff. Let me know if you have any thoughts.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Happy

Dan, Nice looking loft plan. I've never seen where birds trap in through a hallway into the loft. Seems like a lot of doors to close, but may have some other advantages? My hallway is on the oppisite side of Landing Board....... I use 1/2"x1" Welded Wire for bottom of Landing Board. No scraping Board, cleaner bird & feet, give baths in the Fresno or Calif. style Landing board with front closed, so Hawks etc. can't have an advantage catching a Wet Racer bathing out of the loft as so many have to cause they don't want the water on there floors in the loft. The downside is that it is a little harder on there feathers, but I've had Landing Board that way for many yrs. & like it better..... I also have the Steel Grate Floors & it is harder on the feathers also, but is the lesser of evils for me. So much easier to clean, breath, & no dust..... Good Luck, Happy


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## learning

*Thanks Happy*

There are several guys down here that trap into a hallway. The clinching factor for me was when one of the guys in the local club had a hawk come through his sputnik trap into the loft! Scarred the hell out of his birds but the hawk couldn't get to them because he was stuck in the hall. Probably saved at least a few very expensive pigeons that day. It also makes it easier if you are using any kind of round-a-bout system where the cocks and hens are rotated. They all come through the same trap, just into different sections based on which doors are open. Even though there are traps on all three young bird sections, I will only use the middle one 90% of the time. I will just use the others to let them out in the aviary for sun and still keep them separated (sexes). Hope that explains my thoughts (right, wrong or indifferent!).

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Oh, I forgot in the last post. Randy, in your post you mentioned dowelled partitions. I would really like to use these on most of the interior walls. Is there any place you can get these prefab or do you have to make them custom yourself? Seems like a lot of work. Sure would like to save all of those damaged feathers from the wire mesh stuff. Let me know if you have any thoughts.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dan


Can I ask why you want dowelled partitions? Why do you want any kind of partition that the birds can see each other through? When they are separated they need to be TOTALLY separated. Just wondering.........


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## learning

*Oops, not very clear...Sorry!*

The dowelled walls would be used for the comon front walls (to the hall) and doors from the hall to the sections, not the actual walls that separate sections. I guess that wasn't clear in the other posts. The idea would be to increase the air circulation through the loft from lower front to upper rear. The sides of each section will be solid. Hope that clears that up some.

Sorry,

Dan


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## Lovebirds

Oh. OK!. I don't know of anyone who makes them. They would be alot of work to make but would look really nice. Better get busy!!!!


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## learning

*Yea Right!*

Like I don't have enough to keep me busy now! Right now this loft is a clearing in the woods with 10 posts sticking out of the ground! We get out of school this week so the heavy duty building will then begin. I hope to have the platform done and floor down by the end of the summer.The amount completed will depend more on my bank account than amount of free time I have! I am doing all of this by myself and this is the first project of this size I have tried. Can you say "I better be a quick learner!". Oh well, I don't plan on getting any stock until Spring of '08 anyway so I have time...at least some .

Thanks,

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Can you say "I better be a quick learner!".
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, I can say that. "You better be a QUICK learner".  I know how hard we worked for 3 1/2 months, all day EVERY day, sun up to sun down to get ours completed. You've got quite a task if you are doing this alone. Although there was 2 of us, it was a job and of course my husband was the brains behind the whole thing. I didn't have a clue what we were doing. LOL
Click to expand...


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## ZigZagMarquis

learning said:


> Let me try this. I saved the image as a JPEG instead of a bitmap. Hopefully this will be better.


`

DAMN!!!!

I lived in apartments... with roommates... smaller then that when in college!!!!

 

Your future birds will be way lucky!


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## learning

Thank you all for your kind words and advice. Now I just need some prayers to get it done before I am too old to enjoy the birds!

Dan


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## learning

*Some Pics*

On another thread Jiggs asked for some pictures of the loft as it was coming along. Well it aint much folks, but at least there is something that resembles the beginning of a structure of some kind! This chunk of the platform represents 1/3 of the platform. Next comes another section just like this one that will run along side this piece. Then I have to finish the "L", then it's on to some flooring!!! The piece here will be the breeding side of the loft if you look at the floorplan earlier in this thread.

I know I am getting way too excited about such a small little chunk, but if I don't do it this way, (looking at each little piece as a kind of milestone), I will get way too depressed feeling like I will never complete it! Well, thanks for indulging me. 

Dan

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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dan, 

I just got around to reading this thread and your loft design is grand! That is going to be one huge loft! Did you draft the design yourself or did you hire someone to do it? Your blueprints and 3D schematics are very professional.

How's the loft coming now? It's been over a month since you posted these pictures and I was just wondering if you have done anymore work.


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## learning

*Slowly but Surely*

Hi Brad,

Actually the loft itself won't be _that_ big. O.K. it's still pretty big, but 8 feet around the inside of the "L" will be deck. The loft itself is 12' wide. Granted it is a good deal of square feet for a pigeon loft, but as I stated earlier in the post I can not come back and add onto this later due to local ordinances. They give me up to 900 square feet and so I am going to take 880 of it! I have to plan for the future in all aspects of the sport (yoiung birds, widowhood, stock loft, someplace to separate the sexes in the off season, etc., etc., etc.).

The actual construction is coming along o.k. I will finish framing the deck this month and hopefully get the floor, decking and stairs done before I go back to teaching next month. My budget is the biggest time constraint right now. I am only doing this as I have the spare cash. I am not going to finance or borrow any of this. Soooo....I take it a step at a time and at least when this thing is done I will have the pride of knowing that every nail, every board and every post was placed there by my hand. If nothing else, if the thing falls down I have nobody but myself to blame! Right now I am playing around with different nest box and perch designs. Keeps me busy when I don't have any money to move ahead on the actual building!

Thanks for the inquiry. I will try to post some more pictures when the floor and decking are done.

Dan


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## TerriB

Dan, good for you, working through this with patience. The final outcome will definitely be something to be proud of!

I noticed that the adjacent area seems heavily wooded. Just a suggestion that you may need to feed a supplement with vitamin D. I'd thought that because my birds are outside, they got enough sunshine to create this. However, one of the hens got pretty sick before I realized that she just wasn't getting sufficient sunlight due to the location of the flight pen and her disinclination to spend much time outside in the cooler weather. I've been using Winsmore most days and she is much improved.


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## Happy

learning said:


> Oh, I forgot in the last post. Randy, in your post you mentioned dowelled partitions. I would really like to use these on most of the interior walls. Is there any place you can get these prefab or do you have to make them custom yourself? Seems like a lot of work. Sure would like to save all of those damaged feathers from the wire mesh stuff. Let me know if you have any thoughts.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dan


 Dan & Randy, I just remembered that I saw some time ago a Loft using PVC pipe for Dowel's.. I forgot about it till today, but probably doesn't cost anymore than Wood & it sure looked good??
Hap


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## learning

*Thanks*

Hap,

Great idea about the PVC! I will deffinitely look into it. Brad, I forgot to answer you question about the design program I used. Yes, I did all of it myself and the program is called Home Designer 6.0 that I got for like $30 at Costco. I am more of a visual learner and need to see it! Besides, it gives me something I can hang on the wall to keep me inspired!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dan, 

That program sounds like a neat little thing to have indeed, cheap too! I'm really impressed with your design and also your carpentry skills! Not only are you building this humongous loft yourself from scratch, but you're also dealing with uneven terrain and having to make stilts to support the loft. This whole project will take a lot of skill, hard work and know-how. I can't wait to see the finished product and I'm sure you will feel very proud and accomplished when it's finished

I love to build myself, and designing and planning things is the most fun. The hard part is the actual work. I don't have a loft myself or a huge flock of birds but it's interesting to see others starting on such a huge project and working on it from the ground up, literally!

Terri brings up a point that I didn't put much thought into....your wooded lot. It appears to be seperate altogether from your actual, fenced backyard. Did you buy this lot later on or was it always part of your land? How large is that wooded area back there? It looks very dense and "wild" Terri had suggested that you might be lacking direct sunshine with all those trees around which is true, but I was thinking that perhaps there could also be a lot of critters in those woods...lurking. There would be a lot of trees for hawks to hide in and stalk your pigeons. You may want to think about clearing some more trees to give you more sun on the loft and as well to give your birds a good clearing to spot predators. Just a thought here but we can only see a couple of pictures and don't get the full perspective.

Looking forward to more pictures and updates on this construction project


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## learning

*Lot*

Brad,

The lot is about 1 1/3 acres with a revine running right through the middle. The people that had it before didn't use the back of the lot at all and fenced in the front for their dog. When I decided to get back into pigeons the back half was the only logical choice. I took out 19 trees to clear the area for the loft. It is quite dense in the summer but it isn't as bad as the pictures make it look. There are houses behind us that also have about 1 - 1 1/2 acres. Most of the lots behind us have been completely cleared so there isn't that much woods back there, maybe 40 - 50 feet back from the loft. 

As far as hawks go, welcome to Georgia! The flyers down here complain about the hawks no matter if they are in the woods or in the wide open spaces. Like everyone else down here I am just going to have to be extra vigilant when excercising the birds. We do have a red tail that seems to have a permanent home neerby and I understand that they usually will leave pigeons alone in favor of easier prey. I also understand that a larger hawk like a red tail tends to keep the smaller species, (that would be more of a direct threat) away. That is what I am hoping for anyway! 

The loft does face Southest and since removing the trees I have noticed that it does get a good amount of sunshine during the day. I will difinitely keep the supplements in mind, however. Hopefully in two years I will be welcoming my new stock into the finished product!   

Dan


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dan, 

Oh, ok....yes, from the pictures it looks like a very dense and deep forest, lol. 50 feet of those trees isn't so bad or really dense woods I suppose

Yep, it's true, red tails aren't so much of a threat to pigeons because they are slower and more cumbersome in flight. They still might be able to catch a pigeon by surprise though and if hungry enough. 

Crows are a good bird to attract to your area because they are mortal enemies of hawks of all kinds and will harrass them relentlessly until they move on. On the flip side, crows will eat the nestlings and eggs of pigeons if they can get at them. Otherwise, they generally won't bother adult pigeons.

Hopefully you can get your loft done in less than two years...I don't know if I can wait that long to see the finished product !


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## learning

Brad,

I hope I can get done earlier than that too! The determining factors are going to be money and time. As I mentioned earlier, I am doing this by myself so it does slow things down. The money issue is two fold because I am not only saving extra money for the loft but I also have to save for my initial breeding stock. Oh well, rome wasn't built in a day!

In the mean time I am going to post an updated floorplan. I added an 8 x 12 walk in aviary for the breeders on the front instead of the back. I did this for ease of entry on my part but also to get them on the sunny side of the loft. Since these will be prisoners, I figured they need as much space and sunshine as I can give them. 

I will get pictures up as I get them.

Dan

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## learning

*Materials Question*

O.K. Guys,

I got the platform frame done today so now it is on to the floor! Could somebody out there tell me the differences in quality and performance of 3/4" tounge and groove plywood and 3/4" toungue and groove OSB? The plywood is $4 more per sheet and I will need 25 sheets. I would like to save that $100 if there is no appreciable difference between the two products, but if the plywood is significantly better I don't mind spending the extra money. Thanks in advance.

Dan


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## Lovebirds

My husband says that the OSB is a glued together stranded boards and that it will chip up when you scrape it. He said you don't have to use Tongue and groove, but you could check on plywood that is exterior grade, good on one side and put two good coats of oil base, porch and deck paint. We got ours at Lowes. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=46516-000000004-2000&lpage=none


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## learning

Thanks Renee, I will look into that. Sounds like the OSB isn't a very good idea for flooring. I have noticed several contractors around here use it for walls under siding. Would it work for interior walls? Thanks for the help.

Dan


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## george simon

HI DAN, I was wondering if you have a ,feed room/office in the loft,also what type of watering system you plan on having.I think that a automatic watering system will be needed in this loft. GEORGE


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## learning

Hi Gerorge,

The area to the left as you come in will be set up with a utility sink, feed storage as well as shelf and counter space. I am planning on having the waterers accessible from the hallways. From past experience with horses, I am not thrilled with the reliability of the automatic waterers out there. I have seen entire barns flood from faulty or leaky waterers. They sure sound great in principal but I just don't trust them. Plus, with hand watering I can medicate as needed with no bother. As far as an office goes, I have my office set up in the basement of my house now and plan on keeping up with things from there.

Thanks,

Dan


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## george simon

HI DAN, I understand about your feeling on the automatic waters,I know that if I don't feel comfortable with something it becomes worrysome, and who needs the stress. GEORGE


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Thanks Renee, I will look into that. Sounds like the OSB isn't a very good idea for flooring. I have noticed several contractors around here use it for walls under siding. Would it work for interior walls? Thanks for the help.
> 
> Dan


If the OSB is the only thing you put up, I would say no, but if it's under some sort of siding then yes. At least twice a year, I wash my walls and floors down with bleach water. They do get messy. Don't think you would have much luck washing OSB.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Hello Dan,  

In regards to automatic water systems. I am reminded of the poultry industry, where a single person must care for thousands of birds. I personally like the ideal of giving my plastic water jug a good clean washing and disinfecting. I also like to carefully prepare the water that I provide. I mean this is critical. 
The automation I might consider, is the few that remove some of the manure. Or automatic ventilation, heating / cooling, lighting and the such. Sounds like some first class research has been going on. 
Not everyone agrees, and there are pros and cons, but I am still leaning towards grated floors. It can lend itself to a dry litter debate, I just am not into scraping floors twice a day. A once a day perch scrap, and a shop vac run through once a week under the grates, seemed like less work. And if I was really honest, maybe twice a month......


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## learning

*Update*

Hello Everyone,

I promised to keep everyone updated so here is the latest. I finished the deck framing and built the stairs. These are my two boys, Tristan, 10 and Trevor 4. They are really excited about getting the birds so they help me stay motivated, (like I need it!). In case you hadn't figured it out the fat old guy is me. Next it is on to the flooring.

Dan

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## Lin Hansen

Hi Dan,

I've been keeping pretty quiet on your thread here since I really haven't had any good advice to offer you. I don't actually keep any pigeons--I just feed and look after the ferals in my area.

But, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your latest pictures. You have a fine looking family and it's so nice that your boys are interested and are helping you out. I'm sure this will turn into a wonderful experience that the three of you will share and create many lasting memories.

It looks like you're making wonderful progress....best of luck with it.

Linda


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## Happy

Dan, I know I'm bringing this up too late, but we found that the studs for the Grate Flooring should not be farther spred than 16" on center for stabilitly of the Grate.. I notice your studs are already in, & from the Pic. look farther spreed than that, but maybe they are at 16"??? Many of us have Grate here in Calif. & just thought I'd mention it after seeing your Pic's... Looking good though, Loft & Crew. Hap


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## george simon

*Upright Supports*

HI DAN, Glad to see you making progress,looking at the pictures,I feel that you need to have more upright support.It seems that to me that the distence between upright is about 8 or 10 feet. When the loft is bulit that platform and the loft will cause a lot of pressure on the uprights,also you will need up right support under the platform. I see that you have two fine helpers I bet the little guy is the foreman on the job. GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft

In regards to grated floors, I do have an opinion. If I could do it all over again I would do grated flooring under the perches around the outside of the section and wood in the middle of the compartment. I remember seeing a loft that had the floors this way. I think the loft was in an article in RPD. I like having a solid floor under my feet. Breakaway loft has there gratting on the whole floor. This seems to be sagging and hard to walk on. I have wood throughout. I have seen some build a grated box under their perches to catch the droopings. I scrape once a week. I have been using Van Elsakers phylosopy. He became king of the union when he quit scraping twice a day and put his birds on the same food year round. I am working on a good fed mix. I am using his as my starting point. 
I use the flooring board. Great if it does not get wet. It will swell if it gets wet. I have some seams that are bulging a bit. After a bit it gets a good coating of pigeon dust on it and it becomes almost waterproof. I painted the floor of one section, but I cannot tell now. It scrapes nicely. I use OBS to build parts of nestboxes and do some of my walls in obs. It takes about three coats of paint to get this stuff where it resembles a washable surface. I can scrounge up freebees from the local building sites. I am in the process of re-modeling my old shed loft. It had medal roofing for siding. I have some freebee log type siding that I am going to put on the outside. I am using obs under. I am thinking of running some tyvex over the obs. I am adding a flying section. Happy building
Randy Hill


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## learning

*Comments*

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input. George, as for the post suports, my father-in-law is an engineer and he did a lot of research as far as different sizes and spans as well as species of wood and their load factors. He thinks what I am doing is overkill. They are 2X8 double stringers set 10' apart. I am not sure what you mean by upright support. If you mean cross bracing, I am going to put cross bracing on the posts under the higher portions of the deck. I can assure you that it is quite sturdy and stable from standing on it and shaking it. Once the flooring and decking are attached it will be even more solid.

Randy, I plan on using the 39" X 47" wooden floor grates from Jedds. They claim that they do not need any additional support underneath them. Also, I will be cutting them lengthwise so I will be using them in 20" X 47" strips. The floor will be solid 3/4" plywood with the grate strips spaced for ventilation. The floor joists are 24" on center. If they feel weak when I get them installed, I will certainly reinforce them. I do have a question for you though. I will be putting a large 8' X 12' X 6' high aviary on the fromt of the breeding loft. I want to put a metal grate floor of some kind in it. I am having a hard time finding a material that will support my weight. I am pretty sure I will have to put in more floor joists at 12" spans to support it but I still need the material. Everything I have found at Home Depot and such has been too flimsy. Any thoughts?

Thanks In Advance,

Dan


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## Happy

Dan, Ok, now I understand. You are not using Metal Grate Floors for the flooring, you are using Jedds Hardwood Floor GRILLS they call them, & your just using them for ventilation, not for droppings to fall through...... Here in our Hot, Dry Deserts, we can use full Metal Grate Floor except for the Hallway that is solid. I have a cement slab tapered on all sides at edges 14" under my full loft & spray "Oxine" through Metal Grate on droppings, & just use long Landscraping scraper to clean the droppings monthly. Of course I have the bottom 14" sides boxed off & ventilated. Just slip it out, or hinge it up & clean... Of course this might not be good in Europe or real wet foggy areas. I could only find this Metal Grate at Metal Fabricater Suppliers. It comes in 4' X 8' with 3/4-1" diamond shape holes (that I use) & Smaller like 3/8' holes that is too small throughout. It comes in 2 diff. gages, & of course I get the heavy gage that supports any normal persons weight easy with 16" on center spaced 2"X10" treated stringers on the floor........... Hap

Hilltop Loft, A guy can always screw 3/4 plywood down over the Metal Grate where ever they wanted if they thought it was too much ventilation & still be able to take it out in the Hot Summer time etc.. I read that some lofts in Europe have covered there Metal Grate for Race Team because of problems, but there weather factor is much diff. than our Calif, High/Dry Desert, & would think yours in New Mexico? Course I don't know how high your elevation, snow etc. is...... I know one thing. This metal Grate is so nice to be in for the Pigeon Flyer (ME), as there is almost NO DUST to BREATH, very short time cleaning, & so easy to install .......... Hap


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## Skyeking

Hi Dan,

I don't have anything to add either, other then I can't wait to see the finished product.

You have a real nice family (from what I see of them), glad your boys are excited about the whole project too!


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## hillfamilyloft

Happy was it 1" pvc? How was it attached to the structure? Do you recal where you found the pictures?
Randy


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## hillfamilyloft

I meant to say 1/2" pvc.
Thanks Randy


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## Happy

Randy, I never saw this on any site, I saw it in person, but has been over 15 yrs., ago on a few Lofts in the San Fernando Valley, Ca., & on Birds of Prey breeding Chambers.... I didn't pay too much attention how they were attached. Remember one that had mostly 3/4 PVC verticals & doors instead of wire from inside of hallway. This particular one was drilled like the top side of our older Dowel release crates. All the way through about 2"X3" Metal/wood in the middle, & Half way through on upper & bottoms that secured them Also saw this for Water Fronts in 1/2" PVC, built the same way. I'm sure there could be some more ingenious ways to do this, but that's the best I remember. Some of the Falcon/Hawk Breeding Chambers/Lofts had this on the outside, with about 1&1/2" spacings, but they didn't have to worry about Sparrow's, mice, etc. coming into the Loft, as they would be more food!
Birds can't hang on PVC hurting feathers etc., & is pretty Bullet Proof for weather etc....
Hope this helps, Hap


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## SmithFamilyLoft

george simon said:


> HI DAN, Glad to see you making progress,looking at the pictures,I feel that you need to have more upright support.It seems that to me that the distence between upright is about 8 or 10 feet. When the loft is bulit that platform and the loft will cause a lot of pressure on the uprights,also you will need up right support under the platform. I see that you have two fine helpers I bet the little guy is the foreman on the job. GEORGE


 George,

Dan has expert help in regards to the weight loads, but I am with you, that looks like a lot of weight on a single 4x4 ?.... I can just see the entire loft up, and a few "fat" boys like me walking along the left side and then crash !!!!


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## learning

*A Different Perspective*

Hey Warren,

Look at it this way. Think of it as the ultimate burglar alarm. Anyone too big for the platform and all they get for their efforts is a broken leg! Rest assured guys, it really is quite solid and my engineer father-in-law thinks I am wasting money on materials that are "beefier" than needed. Hey, come to think of it, maybe I could work up some kind of workman's comp deal if I fall off the edge. Injuries sustained in the process of educating one's pupils. Hey, I am a teacher, sounds plausible to me! 

As a side note, the vast majority of the weight is going to be on the back side of the loft which gets no higher than about 5 feet and averages about 3 feet. It is only the front left that gets to about 7 feet. The only thing on that corner is the stock aviary.

Thanks for all your concerns and may none of them come to pass!  

Dan


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## learning

*Thanks*

Linda and Treesa,

Thank you so much for the compliments regarding my family. I could not be more proud of our two boys and the real glue that keeps everything running around our house was on the business end of the camera! That would be my wife of almost twenty years, Lori. Yes, 20 years...with the same woman! Hard to believe these days I know. Anyway, we are all really looking forward to the day we can welcome our winged family members to their new home!

Thanks again for the kind words,

Dan


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## learning

*Construction Help*

O.K. guys and gals, I have finally got to the point where I am ready to start going up with the walls! (Only took a year!). This is purely a construction question. As has been addressed earlier in this thread I am doing this by myself so it is progressing quite slowly. I have finished all of the platform the loft will go on including the metal grating for the large stock aviary as well as the flooring and decking. All of the flooring is covered with plastic to try to protect it from the elements until I can get a roof over it. My question is this. Should I wait until I can afford all of the framing for the outer walls and roof and have the time to throw it up in a week or so, or should I just put it up as I can afford it and have the time to do it? My concern is the exposure to the elements. I am worried that the framing material will get damaged if left exposed to the elements over a long period of time, (several months).

For those of you that are interested I am including the latest version of the floorplan which is mainly different in the moving of the individual breeding pens to the other side of the loft. This puts their aviaries on the sunny side of the loft so they can get as much sunshine as possible since they will be prisoners.

As always, any input or opinion is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

View attachment 4855


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## TAWhatley

Dan,

It looks absolutely fabulous to me .. sadly, I am construction challenged and don't have a clue .. others will be along shortly.

Terry


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## Lovebirds

TAWhatley said:


> Dan,
> 
> sadly, I am construction challenged
> 
> Terry


Well, so am I but I do know that in the process of building our loft, my husband would go and buy a few 2 x 4's at a time because they warp so easily. I saw many 2 X 4's go from straight to curved in a matter of a day or so, so, I would think that it would be best to save your money, go on a BIG shopping spree when you have the money and time and work your butt off for a week and get the walls up. I have to say, I admire you patience for one thing and the fact that you are doing this alone.........wow.........you are really going to have something to be proud of when your done.


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## hillfamilyloft

I would also buy the wood in a bundle and get one of those numatic nailing gun and go for it in a few days. The warping wood is an issue. I have burned a few in the chiminea myself. You could also buy a wall at a time and do it that way. I also watch the builders put up houses in a snow storm and leave the walls to get wet and layered with snow. I think that they will do ok if they are nailed together and covered with tarps. Love the design. I like the addition of the aviary for the breeders. 
Randy


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## roxtar

Learning, 
I too am in the tough spot of having to do all this stuff a little at a time and can tell you that if I could hit the "rewind" button and go back about a month I'd definately wait and buy all the lumber in one trip and build the whole thing at once. It really is hard for me to stay motivated to keep going when the progress seems sooooo slooooow and every bit of progress seems trivial in relation to the amount of work left to be done-and thinking about how you're going to afford to take that next step is only another obstacle and further adds to the desire to throw up one's hands and say "screw it". 
Otherwise, your loft looks great and it appears to be coming along real well. Good luck with the rest of it.


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## Skyeking

Hi roxtar,

You should just look at each project at a time ( a day at a time, sometimes even...an hour at a time), it keeps you from looking ahead too much and rushing. 

I know the feeling, as I have been there and done that. You will always go back and look at things and say, oh I should have done that or this, but that is just the way it is.

You have to look at it as a great learning experience, and enjoy each different phase and aspect of it. It is easy to want to hurry and seeing the finished project in your mind does keep you motivated.

If I had to do it all over again, I would visualize where all the poop would land before setting up perches/roosts, and nest boxes, everything...it is amazing the nooks and crannies where pigeon poop goes.  

Your project looks like you have gotten a great start, and you will eventually see it thru to the ned.


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## george simon

*Slow Approach*

HI DAN, I would take the slow approach. I rember when I was building my loft,I was rushed into getting it done by those that had raised young birds for me(late hatches).I often look at my loft and wish that I would have taken the slow approach. Now if I were you I would have a three phase plan.
PHASE#1 STOCK LOFT AND STOCK HENS AND SELECT SECTION 
PHASE#2 YOUNG BIRDS AND WHITE BIRDS SECTION 
PHASE #3 WIDOWHOOD SECTION When you reach this phase you will have only the outside walls to do for this section as the inner walls will have been completed during phases 1and 2
.......GEORGE


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## learning

Thanks to all for the input. I think I am going to have to wait and save the money to do all the exterior walls in one push. I have a two week break in December for Christmas so hopefully it won't be too cold down here and I can get it knocked out. Hey Roxtar, look at it this way, you are a lot further along than I am! I guess it is my age, but I have learned to be patient with some things out of shear neccesity. One learns, as one gets some more "experience" (for lack of a better word), that life tends to throw curve balls at you just when you think you have things figured out. I have found that if you try to fight it, it just comes back to haunt you. I guess it is God's way of keeping our priorities in line.

I am just going to keep plugging and sooner or later, probably later, I will be welcoming my new birds into their home.

Thanks again to all,

Dan

P.S. I noticed that this thread has been moved from the racing group. Did I put this in the wrong place? Sorry if I screwed up!


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## TAWhatley

learning said:


> P.S. I noticed that this thread has been moved from the racing group. Did I put this in the wrong place? Sorry if I screwed up!


Nope, you're in the right place  Several members had asked for a separate forum just to discuss loft plans and construction of same.

Terry


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## Skyeking

learning said:


> P.S. I noticed that this thread has been moved from the racing group. Did I put this in the wrong place? Sorry if I screwed up!



Hi Dan,

Thank you for your inquiry.

You didn't screw up. You put the thread in the right forum that we had at the time. Since your thread was started, we did get a new forum for LOFT DESIGNS, as Terry mentioned. I just moved it to the new forum.


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## learning

*Update and Question*

O.K. guys, two things. First of all, I wanted to share what better be the last adjustment to my floorplan as I am about ready to start building the walls and I can't keep doing this forever! This brings about yet another question for all you racing geniuses out there. In an effort to keep things as simple as possible (yea right!), I was going to have the old bird widowers trap into the same openning as the young birds do and just fly down the hall to the widowhood section of the loft. My thoughts on this are two fold. First, the young birds and old birds won't be sharing the trap at the same time of year and secondly the birds would have to learn just one trap their entire racing life. Might make it easier from a training standpoint for those yearlings. Do any of you see any plusses or minuses to this thought process and this system? Sure would make construction easier, just one trap to install.

Please feel free to chime in on this with any of your thoughts.

Thanks,

Dan

View attachment 5050


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## learning

*Latest Update*

Well, for all of you that wanted updates, this is where I am to date. The walls are up and the ceiling and roof joists are hung. Next it is on to the exterior siding then the roof. Oh well, one step at a time right?!

Enjoy,

Dan

View attachment 5326


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## roxtar

That looks absolutely great!! That's going to be a helluva loft once it's finished. Are you a carpenter or just a hobbyist like me? And I thought I had my work cut out for me!!


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dan, 

Wow...your mansion loft DOES look great It's been in construction for quite awhile now but your efforts are certainly showing. It's funny, I was just looking at your thread the other day and was wondering how things were going.

You're moving slow but steady....the ways of a true craftsman


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## TAWhatley

Fabulous, Dan! I really can't wait to see this get completed!

Terry


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## Skyeking

Hi Dan,

Oh...my...what a grand opening celebration you are going to have.   

Looking forward to your next update!


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## learning

*Thanks*

Thank you all for your encouragement. I am hoping that by this fall I will have this thing finished. It will all be a matter of funds. We'll see. Roxtar, I am certainly no professional. If you could see this up close you would see that it is not exactly perfect shall we say! Before starting this little project I think I might have driven maybe a dozen nails in my life. I do feel, however, that when it is done it will be a safe and healthy home for our new family members.

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## maryjane

Look absolutely amazing!! Great job so far!  It rather puts my pvc and hardward cloth aviaries to shame.


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## learning

*An Interesting Note*

Maryjane,

I had an interesting comment made to me the other day that sort of goes along with yours. Our club has been very fortunate to have the infamous Bob Tavares of Boston fame, move to the area. For those of you that don't know Bob, he is a third generation pigeon man that used to write for both the Racing Pigeon Bulletin and Digest. While in Boston, he pretty much owned the competition for a lot of years up there. He is the kind of guy that has forgotten more about racing pigeons than I could ever hope to know. 

Anyway, he came over to the house the other day to see how I was coming along. He seemed very imperessed with the layout of the loft and after a while he made a comment to me that I though was very profound. When I asked him if he thought this would give me a good start to getting back into racing he smiled and said "Just remember, guys have won consistently flying out of orange crates". This was his way of saying that regardless of what you put them in, as long as it provides for the basic needs of the birds, it is going to be up to the fancier to bring out the best in his or her birds.

Very sound advice from a very, very intelligent man.

Dan


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## roxtar

Yeah but orange crates don't provide you with a place to sleep when you and the wife get into an argument.


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## learning

Roxtar,

Don't laugh, I am currently in a dispute with the county over just that matter! It never fails to amaze me that no matter what you do, everyone wants their little piece of the pie. This seems to hold true especially for the government. The only problem is that by the time everyone has their piece of the pie, the pie is bigger than the baker can handle!!

Dan


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## roxtar

That's a crying shame. As I said in a previous thread, it's a good thing we live in America where our neighbors and government are free to tell us what we can and can't do in our own back yards.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

H. L. Mencken


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## learning

Roxtar,

The good news here is that unlike George, who's unfortunate circumstances have also put him at odds with his local authorities as documented in another post, I am pretty sure I am going to be o.k. I obtained the last required documentation for the permit yesterday so all that is left is to go into the county office, pay my money and get the permit. At least I hope it all goes that smoothly. The bad news is that this little distraction is going to end up costing me in the neighborhood of $350 before it is all over. The good news is that once I have the permit, nobody can say boo to me. 

Just thought you might want an update on that front.

Dan


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## roxtar

learning said:


> I obtained the last required documentation for the permit yesterday so all that is left is to go into the county office, pay my money and get the permit.....


Good, I'm glad to hear it. I had a little trouble with my neighbors too when I first started building mine, even had the Humane Society called on me but all went well. I just wish government would stay the heck out of our lives.


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## learning

*Latest Update and a Question*

O.K. folks, some good news and some not so good news. The good news is that after some $350 and a ton of hastle, I now have my building permit in hand and can move forward on the loft. YEA!!!

Now the not so good news. The next step in construction is the exterior siding. I was all set to use the Smart Side siding they have here at Home Depot. It is pretty economical, easy to install and comes pre-primed. That was until I found a web site that says it is defective and will rot withing 5 years. He is an installer of siding and used to install the stuff but stopped after numerous complaints about it. He has plenty of photos to support his claims. Now I am leary. I am very interested in steel siding but I am having difficulty getting prices and installation information. As you can see from previous pictures, the loft is framed already with studs which are 24" on center.

Can anyone help me that has experience with this type of siding? What can I expect in the way of cost? How is the stuff installed? Any information you can share would, as always, be greatly appreciated. If someone has had really good results with other products please chime in. 

Thanks A Ton,

Dan


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## Lovebirds

Wouldn't steel or any kind of metal siding make the loft colder in the winter and hotter in the summer? Unless you're insulating of course........


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## learning

Yea, that is one of my thoughts also. I know that people have used the stuff with great success however. I am not sure if I would need to insulate or not. Being in Georgia the winter isn't usually much of a problem (except this year!) however the summer is very hot and humid at times.

Renee, what did you use for your siding? From the pictures it looks like regular R-11 plywood siding. How has it held up for you guys? What did you use to paint it (primer, etc.)? Any special precautions you would warn against?

Thanks In Advance,

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Renee, what did you use for your siding? From the pictures it looks like regular R-11 plywood siding. How has it held up for you guys? What did you use to paint it (primer, etc.)? Any special precautions you would warn against?
> 
> Thanks In Advance,
> 
> Dan


We used 5/8" T-11 siding and we used a exterior grade stain. We put two coats on it when we built the loft in 2001 and haven't touched it since.


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## learning

Thanks for the info Renee. I just got back from Home Depot and now I am thinking about Hardi Panel siding. It's a concrete fiber based product. It's heavier and will probably be a bit more of a pain to install but they say that once it is in and painted, it will last 50 years. It is only $2 a sheet more expensive than the Smart Side stuff and is actually cheaper than the R1-11. Go figure?! Do you or your husband have any experience with this stuff? Sounds almost too good to be true. 

Oh well, thanks again in advance,

Dan


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## learning

*Update*

Well Folks,

It's now early March and I am back from a much needed vacation in Disney World with the family (very crowded but a lot of fun with the two boys!), I have my building permit and am ready to get back at it.

I ordered the Ondura roofing today. It's a pretty neat product. It is a corrugated ashphalt panel that comes in 4' X 8' sheets. You just nail it down over purlins and you're good to go. I ordered 40 sheets and 8 skylight sheets (translucent fiberglass version of the regular sheets) and I am ordering the Hardi Panel siding next week. Needless to say my walet is significantly lighter right now! I have half of the roof pulins up and will try to finish those this weekend. March is going to be a very, very busy month.

With any luck I will have a weather tight building by the end of the month and then it is on to the interior. Wish me luck!!   

Dan


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## learning

*Latest*

For those that care,

Just a quick update on the slow progress. The roof is almost done! And I didn't fall through one time, (almost did once but we won't count that!). To say I will be relieved when the roof is complet is a real understatement. Thank God my father in law was able to come up and help some. The roofing isn't that bad, it's the climbing up and down that ladder over and over that is the killer. 

Anyway, I will try to finish up the roof next weekend. After that it is on to the siding. I have a feeling the loft may have to take a one month respite from construction as I need to take some time to figure out the new alarm system we got this weekend!  Check out the "Ultimate In Loft Security" thread under Loft Designs for details!

Later,

Dan


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## mr squeaks

WoW, Dan! That looks like some LOFT!

Of course, we will expect an extensive tour when you are finished! Better slow and safe than fast and sorry!

LOOKIN' GOOOOD!


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## TerriB

Your loft is really shaping up nicely! It looks like those white roof panels will add quite a bit of light to the interior.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Are those white roof panels for light or for looks ? The more work you do on this little "project" the larger it looks. You must have mentioned the measurements and square foortage a dozen times, but what are they again ? If this doesn't get at least an honorable mention in the annual AU loft design contest, then I will really be surprized. Personally, I think it's gonna be a National Design Winner !


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## learning

Well Warren, frankly, I don't care what kind of awards it wins as long as it provides a healthy, stress free home for it's inhabitants. When all is said and done it is going to be about 820 square feet inside with about 400 square feet of aviary space. 

The sklight panels are going to serve two purposes. One, it will significantly increase the amount of natural sunlight into the loft but since they are translucent instead of transparent, they will diffuse the light so it shouldn't have the greenhouse effect that raises the temperature inside so many structures that have clear windows down here. The second pupose of the skylights is that I think it will make it easier for my birds to find their home. The white panels give the roof a distinctive look and since the loft is hidden down in a bunch of trees, it should make it a little easier to find. Hopefully they will be able to distinguish it quickly and dive for the trap before Mr. Hawk realizes that the buffet is open. Well, that is the theory anyway! 

Dan


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## Guest

Love your loft  Just wondering how much those roofing sheets cost per sheet there  thats a whole lotta roofing going on lol  Excellent job cant wait to see the finished product inside and out hehe


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## learning

The red panels are $15 each and the translucent panels were $43 each. I know, I was a little taken back by the price of the skylight sheets at first but I do think they are going to do the job well.

Dan


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## mr squeaks

learning said:


> The red panels are $15 each and the translucent panels were $43 each. I know, I was a little taken back by the price of the skylight sheets at first but I do think they are going to do the job well.
> 
> Dan



LOL  

Gee, Dan, the more you describe your loft, the more some members may want to come and live in your loft along with your pijies!!

Talk about your PIGEON PALACE!!

I, too, am REALLY looking forward to an extensive TOUR when the loft is finished!!


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## Skyeking

I know my birds will want to move to your loft once it is finished, if they got a tour. LOL

Talk about a pigeon paradise!

I'm looking forward to pics of your grand opening.


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## learning

There is a standing invitation to anyone that wants to make the trek to the deep South for the grand ribbon cutting! I would promise fried chicken, grits and cololard greens for all...but I hate grits and collard greens!

Seriously, I would welcome any visitors that would like to come down.

Dan


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## Skyeking

Hey Dan,

You mean come up...for us that are even deeper in the south. 

We will be going back up to Jefferson, GA. this year, we may just stop by ....with lots of notice, of course.


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## mr squeaks

LUCKY Treesa!

I live much too far away and don't like traveling anyway. More's the pity because I LOVE fried chicken and collards! Grits are OK...

So, I will patiently wait for pictures and oooooh and ahhhhh along with everyone else who can't make the trip!


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## Guest

I think I will have to wait for the virtual tour too lol but I still cant wait to see it ,its gonna be a hugeeeee event for sure  will there be fireworks too?


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## learning

Nope, no fireworks. With my luck I would manage to burn down what I just finished!

Dan


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## TerriB

learning said:


> ...The sklight panels...will diffuse the light so it shouldn't have the greenhouse effect that raises the temperature inside so many structures that have clear windows down here...
> Dan


Another advantage of the panels being translucent is that the birds inside aren't stressed by seeing hawks flying overhead.



mr squeaks said:


> ...I LOVE fried chicken and collards! Grits are OK...


Mmmm, grits and red-eye gravy - mmmm! 



learning said:


> Nope, no fireworks. With my luck I would manage to burn down what I just finished!
> Dan


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## youssef401

good thanks


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## ohiogsp

How is this loft coming? Lets see some pics. I can tell by what was already posted you are a loft building god.


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## hillfamilyloft

Don't let my birds see that loft. They might fly off and go there. 
Randy


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## learning

Sorry guys, I am in a holding pattern right now due to schooling and other expenses. I should be able to get the siding up next month. Believe me, I wish I had more to share with you.

Patience is a virtue...I guess!

Dan


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## mr squeaks

We can be patient, Dan...AS LONG as there is a GRAND OPENING RIBBON CUTTING CEREMONY AND TOUR as a reward for our PATIENCE...  

Wishing you all the best! You have most certainly stirred OUR interest!


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## learning

Believe me, after two years of work, you can bet that there will at least be plenty of pictures taken and shared when all is said and done. This teaching full time, getting your masters degree in the evenings, raising two boys, raising two dogs, and trying to be some semblance of a husband to my wife is getting in the way of finishing this thing!

That's o.k. though. From the beginning I told myself that this project had to be last on the priority list...both from a time standpoint and financially. Right this second all of the above is demanding my attention but, come hell or high water, it _*will*_ be done by this fall!

Thanks for all the continued kind words and curiosity. I promise I will share what I have as it gets done.

Dan


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## george simon

*When Is*

HI DAN, When is the loft warming party I will fly in to attend. LOL Keep up the good work doing it right the first time is the only way to go. .GEORGE


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## hillfamilyloft

Maybe a few of us can help with some birds to fill the loft. Maybe Warren can cut you a deal and maybe the rest of us can send you out a kit of youngbirds for next year. After you get finished with the loft you may not have too much money for birds. I am always looking for a good loft to test my birds.
Randy


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## learning

*Thanks*

Randy,

Thanks a bunch for the offer. You are too kind. I have already contacted a very reputable breeder that I trust implicitly for my initial stock. I am really interested in the genetic side of things so I have a plan layed out that I am going to try to follow as closely as I can. I am going to try to keep the bloodlines pretty close, at least initially, and see what I can do with it. Once I get this family up and going I will certainly always be on the lookout for great crosses to better my colony. I may just be giving you a call at some point! 

Please do not be offended if I turn your generous offer down at this point. I just need to keep it _*really*_ simple to start with, from a genetic standpoint at least. I gotta admit, I aint too bright sometimes so I need to go nice and SLOOOWWWWW! 

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## hillfamilyloft

Just out of curiosity, what bloodline are you starting with. My birds are mainly Vic Miller birds crossed with Engels, original Janseen blood, and Ganus stock. The Miller bloodline is blood down from the Verbart 46. Said to be the best bird Klak ever bred, via an egg. I started with 6 pair. I have found two distinct set of nest mates that I am founding two lines from. They are mainly Janssen bloodlines. Some blood I find in their pedigrees are down from Piet Valk, Jos Thone, Bob Kenny, Vic Miller, Ganus, etc. You are wise to be selective in the birds you aquire. You will soon have many birds. I have only added two birds to the original 12 of my breeding stock. I added an Ikon/ Magic Star grandson and a bird from Scott McCallister the 2000 Snow Bird Winner. I have two nest mates to the Vegas Classic 2004 8th place bird. I aquired birds the same way that you are going to. All but two of the original twelve were of similar bloodline. Out of the 14 birds that brought in blood to my stock I had four sets of nest mates. The nest mates were also related in some way. Well heck this is the loft section, I better stop talking genetics.

Randy


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## youssef401

thanks very good


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## mr squeaks

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just out of curiosity, what bloodline are you starting with. My birds are mainly Vic Miller birds crossed with Engels, original Janseen blood, and Ganus stock. The Miller bloodline is blood down from the Verbart 46. Said to be the best bird Klak ever bred, via an egg. I started with 6 pair. I have found two distinct set of nest mates that I am founding two lines from. They are mainly Janssen bloodlines. Some blood I find in their pedigrees are down from Piet Valk, Jos Thone, Bob Kenny, Vic Miller, Ganus, etc. You are wise to be selective in the birds you aquire. You will soon have many birds. I have only added two birds to the original 12 of my breeding stock. I added an Ikon/ Magic Star grandson and a bird from Scott McCallister the 2000 Snow Bird Winner. I have two nest mates to the Vegas Classic 2004 8th place bird. I aquired birds the same way that you are going to. All but two of the original twelve were of similar bloodline. Out of the 14 birds that brought in blood to my stock I had four sets of nest mates. The nest mates were also related in some way. *Well heck this is the loft section, I better stop talking genetics.*
> Randy


LOL...gee, Randy...what's a LOFT without BIRDS??? AND, what are racers without background discussion???

Your comments didn't bother ME at all!   

Shi


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## learning

hillfamilyloft said:


> Just out of curiosity, what bloodline are you starting with. My birds are mainly Vic Miller birds crossed with Engels, original Janseen blood, and Ganus stock. The Miller bloodline is blood down from the Verbart 46. Said to be the best bird Klak ever bred, via an egg. I started with 6 pair. I have found two distinct set of nest mates that I am founding two lines from. They are mainly Janssen bloodlines. Some blood I find in their pedigrees are down from Piet Valk, Jos Thone, Bob Kenny, Vic Miller, Ganus, etc. You are wise to be selective in the birds you aquire. You will soon have many birds. I have only added two birds to the original 12 of my breeding stock. I added an Ikon/ Magic Star grandson and a bird from Scott McCallister the 2000 Snow Bird Winner. I have two nest mates to the Vegas Classic 2004 8th place bird. I aquired birds the same way that you are going to. All but two of the original twelve were of similar bloodline. Out of the 14 birds that brought in blood to my stock I had four sets of nest mates. The nest mates were also related in some way. Well heck this is the loft section, I better stop talking genetics.
> 
> Randy


Randy,

I have been fortunate enough to find a gentleman here in the states that has developed a highly inbred colony of pigeons and has had some real success with them. Most of his family is based on top notch Dutch and Belgian stock. For now, this man has requested to remain annonymous but he has been a tremendous help to me in every aspect of the sport. Maybe in a few months I will be free to "reveal my sources" as it were, but for now I need to honor his request. Sorry to be such a tease! 

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft

learning said:


> O.K. folks here goes. I think a little background is neccessary here. I am starting back into racing after about a 30 year hiatus from the sport. My goals are not just to become a successful flyer but also to become a skilled and consistent breeder of the highest quality birds possible. Right now, I am at the construction stage for my loft. The plan below is the result of about a dozen other attempts. My lot is layed out in the middle of dense woods so I have had to remove about 20 trees. The lot is sloped so I will be building the whole thing on a platform. It will be about 12 inches off the ground in the back and about 7 feet high in the front. The roof will be white translucent roofing to maximize the natural light. Ventilation will be from grated panels in the floor and vents out the back of the roof. I will have exhaust fans in the ceiling to increase circulation as needed.
> 
> The "L" shaped design is because of the shape of my lot. I don't have a lot of available space on the sides. The large breeding area will hold up to 24 pairs of breeders. The three individual breeding pens will be for special pairs that I must be sure there is no accidental out breeding. I could also use these areas for issolation or quaratine areas if needed. Next to the individual pens is an area for the breeding hens during the off season. All of these breeding areas have access to and aviary that is 4 feet wide and 6 feet high. The racing side consists of the widowhood hens section followed be the actual widowhood loft that will have 24 boxes. Next comes a section that I am reserving for some white birds as my wife is interested in getting into the dove release business for weddings and funerals and such. The young birds get three sections The outside two so I can separate the sexes and the middle section as a "playpen" so I can use it as and extra motivator as the season goes on. All of the racing sections have access to a 4 foot wide landing board/aviary. Some folks call this a California Style landing board. There is an 8 foot deck that goes around the front of the loft.
> 
> Now, before everybody says I am crazy and that this is way overboard, let me explain. Once this is built, I will not be in a position to add on to anything. Local ordinances dictate that I am allowed only one additional out building and that it can not exceed 900 square feet. Because of this I am forced to plan ahead for all of my future needs now. I realize that this loft will sit mostly empty for several years as I build my own family of birds, but I really have no choice. O.K. now with all that it mind, go ahead and chew it up for me. What do you folks think I could do better or different to maximize the health and well being of my birds? I would really appreciate any advice here. Like I mentioned earlier I have already been through about a dozen drafts so one or two more won't hurt!
> 
> Thanks In Advance,
> 
> Dan
> View attachment 3793
> 
> 
> View attachment 3794



OK Dan,

Look when you first started this thread ! Today this thread is One Year Old so you have been at this for a year now.......when is this 'little project' of your's going to get done ? And when are you going to break this 'vow of silence' concerning your foundation breeders ?

I don't want to be the one to spill the beans, but I think you tipped your hand in this link 'Breeder Recommendations' and you did discuss White Dove's in your loft design  : 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=198545#post198545


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## learning

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK Dan,
> 
> Look when you first started this thread ! Today this thread is One Year Old so you have been at this for a year now.......when is this 'little project' of your's going to get done ? And when are you going to break this 'vow of silence' concerning your foundation breeders ?
> 
> I don't want to be the one to spill the beans, but I think you tipped your hand in this link 'Breeder Recommendations' and you did discuss White Dove's in your loft design  :
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=198545#post198545


Like the old commercials used to say..."only my hairdresser knows for sure!"

Dan


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## learning

*Exciting Time!!*

O.K. Guys and Gals,

As I type this there is a siding crew outside putting the siding on the loft!  I am so excited I just had to write this down. As things progress I will post some updated pictures. With any luck this thing will look like an actual building by the end of this weekend. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> O.K. Guys and Gals,
> 
> As I type this there is a siding crew outside putting the siding on the loft!  I am so excited I just had to write this down. As things progress I will post some updated pictures. With any luck this thing will look like an actual building by the end of this weekend. Keep your fingers crossed for me!
> 
> Dan


WOO HOO!! WE are WAITING on pictures. I know that you must be so excited. Good luck and we'll be watching..........


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## learning

Don't look now...but there's siding on that there loft!

View attachment 6695


View attachment 6696


More to come!

Dan


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## learning

*Latest*

Well Guys,

For what it's worth, here are the latest pics. I know they don't look a whole lot different from the last but in the last pics the entire back side was void of siding. My father-in-law thinks about 4 more hours of work should finish up the siding. 

From there I will be focusing exclusively on the breeding side to get ready for my stock birds which should arrive sometime in October. So its aviaries, nestboxes, etc., etc., etc. I should have a few more months to get the young bird sections done and a full year before I need to worry about the old bird sections. So...like everything else in this project, it's one step at a time.

Enjoy,

Dan

View attachment 7072


View attachment 7073


View attachment 7074


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## Lovebirds

Looking very nice!!...........next we'll need a video walk through please.......LOL


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## Maggie-NC

Magnificent!


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## Margarret

Wow!! that is an awesome loft you are constructing. Makes me humble, as last year my husband and I built a small 8'x16' loft with an attached aviary. Took us nearly a year! Yes, we need a video tour when you are done.

Margaret


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## ohiogsp

That is going to be very nice.


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## TerriB

Looking forward to a view of the inside, with all those lovely skylights! I think your birds are going to love it!


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## mr squeaks

WOW, Dan!

Now, THAT is what I call a PIGEON PALACE!!

Beautifully done! Is there a "Loft Beautiful" Magazine out there? 

See what happens when you do such a marvelous job? AND, you thought your work would be over...WRONG! NOW, you have to conduct "guided tours!"     

Shi &
Squeaks (who says, IF he had to live someplace else, your place would be # 1 on his list!)


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## learning

mr squeaks said:


> WOW, Dan!
> 
> Now, THAT is what I call a PIGEON PALACE!!
> 
> Beautifully done! Is there a "Loft Beautiful" Magazine out there?
> 
> *See what happens when you do such a marvelous job? AND, you thought your work would be over...WRONG! NOW, you have to conduct "guided tours!"     *
> Shi &
> Squeaks (who says, IF he had to live someplace else, your place would be # 1 on his list!)


After what I have been through over the last two years, I would love to get to the "guided tour" stage! Thanks for all the kind words anyway. I am really getting up against the wall in terms of time. My stock is ready to be shipped as soon as I am ready!

Dan


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## Skyeking

WOW...is right.

Shouldn't you have a grand opening...perhaps a ribbon cutting ceremony?

You have to do something special to commemorate the official opening of this grand pigeon palace.


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## mr squeaks

Trees Gray said:


> WOW...is right.
> 
> *Shouldn't you have a grand opening...perhaps a ribbon cutting ceremony?*
> 
> You have to do something special to commemorate the official opening of this grand pigeon palace.



I AGREE! 

Please let us know so I can raise a glass of...WINE to celebrate!!

Sounds like you are gonna have to do a little hustling to get things finished soon. 

We will wait...well, for some of us...as patiently as we can!    

Shi & Squeaks


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## TheSnipes

Wow your lucky birds are going to really live in luxury!! What a beautiful location, too. I love all the pics and look forward to seeing pics with your birds moved in


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## learning

*Latest*

Well folks, for better or for worse, here are the latest pictures of our progress. Lori and I have really worked hard this week and have made some good progress.

View attachment 7347


I know this doesn't look like anything but these screens in between the rafters on the back side (40 of them) took me 7 hours to finish Saturday!

View attachment 7346


This is taken from the racing side looking back towards the breeding side. I am standing in what eventually will be a feed storage/work space. Immediately to my right will be an area for the widowhood hens.

View attachment 7348


This shows some of the lattice that will be in all sections. You can also see some of the electrical work whick is complete on the inside. That includes the three exhaust fans, lights and timers. (Thank God for father in laws that are electrical engineers!) Now all I have to do is dig a 50' trench to run an electrical line out to the loft from the house. YUCK!!! 

Well, I hope you enjoyed these. Hopefully we will be finishing soon. Seems like the more you get done, the more you find to do!

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Dan,

I am not exactly sure, but I think your "Loft" has more square footage then my house !  But, from your photo's I can't exactly figure out where the bedroom and bathroom will be when this is done ? ..... 

I am pretty sure that this "little" project which is two years in the making ? Has exceeded everyone's expectations for what we normally think of as a loft.

I sure hope you are taking a whole bunch of pictures, as I am certain that this "Loft" should be submitted next year to the AU Loft of the Year contest.


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## Skyeking

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I sure hope you are taking a whole bunch of pictures, as I am certain that this "Loft" should be submitted next year to the AU Loft of the Year contest.



I agree with that. 

Your pigeons will be quite happy.  

One thing....Are you going to cover the lattice? You do know that alot of dust will trap up in there. Pigeons have a way of getting dust in places I never dreamed.


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## learning

The point of using the lattice is to increase airflow and allow more light in from the skylights. I am affraid that covering them would defeat the purpose. I am hoping the the three exhaust fans I have installed will take care of the dust problem. We'll see.

Thanks,

Dan


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## learning

...And the Father- In -Law said "Let there be lights"....











...and it was so....







View attachment 7540


View attachment 7541


View attachment 7542


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## Lovebirds

*WOW!!! *..............very very nice...........


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## TerriB

What an inviting view for your birds to come home to! Lovely spacious cubbies!


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## learning

*Warren Smith or Smith Family Loft-USA Moves South!?*

Well...sort of.

Can you believe it!? Anyone that has been following this thread for the last two years will know what a long journey this has been. What started out as a search for a strong, performance based, inbred family of pigeons boiled down to two names, Ludo Claessens and Warren Smith. This has resulted in much more than I could have dreamed.

Yup, you guessed it...in the imortal words of Scotty from the Star Trek movies...(spoken with a heavy Scottish brogue so you gotta kinda roll the "r")

"...Cap'n... therrr be whales here!"

only this time, it's pigeons...and not just pigeons, but some of the finest birds I could imagine, straight from the loft of Mr. Warren Smith of Smith Family Loft fame. Through the course of this search of mine, Warren has been much more than a possible supplier of pigeons. He has answered every question, listened to every gripe or complaint, and gently...o.k. sometimes not so gently...steered me in the right direction. A great bond of trust has grown. So much so, that when it came down to brass tacks, I had no reservations about leaving the actual selection of the birds to be relocated up to him. What I received was beyond my wildest dreams. 

Needless to say I am beyond thrilled and since receiving the birds, Warren's interest and support has only gotten stronger...so much so that there may be an announcement on his web site soon! I will let him address that.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you guys know that this will probably be the last post on this thread since we have finally made it to the actual delivery of my initial stock! (Even though the loft itself is far from complete. ) so...thanks to everyone for your words of advice and encouragement. I thought you would enjoy seeing this thing finally come to a close.

Thanks again everyone,

Dan

P.S. Yes...now I have to scrape poop too, just like the rest of you!

View attachment 7602


View attachment 7603


View attachment 7604


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## TAWhatley

How exciting, Dan! I'm so glad your lovely loft is now populated by equally lovely birds! I'll look forward to more updates!

Terry


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## Lovebirds

I LOVE LOVE your nest boxes!! Got a comment about the perches though?? Are those permanent or temporary? 
Good looking birds to I might add.


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## learning

Renee,

Those perches are the result of getting a call from the post office a full day early saying "come get these birds out of our post office"! They are as temporary as you can get! They will be replaced ASAP.

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Renee,
> 
> Those perches are the result of getting a call from the post office a full day early saying "come get these birds out of our post office"! They are as temporary as you can get! They will be replaced ASAP.
> 
> Dan



 Good enough for me. I won't say a single thing now.


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## italianbird101

Beautifull Birds


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## TerriB

Congratulations!!! Lovely birds! Love your set-up! Looks like the birds approve of the loft and have settled right in! I know you will enjoy spending time getting to know your new flock!


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## Pigeon lower

for a second i thought those we same bird in all pick one hen looks like a cock in another pic of urs the brown one with a white tick near its eye


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## SmithFamilyLoft

*AU Show Case Loft*

OK Learning,

You have been working on this loft for two years now, and you now have the loft stocked. So when is this beauty going to find it's way onto the American Racing Pigeon Union's "Show Case Loft" section ?!?!  

http://www.pigeon.org/showcaselofts.htm


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## learning

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> OK Learning,
> 
> You have been working on this loft for two years now, and you now have the loft stocked. So when is this beauty going to find it's way onto the American Racing Pigeon Union's "Show Case Loft" section ?!?!
> 
> http://www.pigeon.org/showcaselofts.htm



Warren,

Only my hairdresser knows for sure!

Oops...I guess I am dating myself here with that comment. I forget that most of the members here are too young to remember those commercials.

To answer your question, I am trying to finish up the racing side of the loft interior now. Seems I am staying one section ahead of the breeders! I finished the first young bird section the week before I weaned the first round. I just finished the second section and the second round will be ready to wean in about two weeks, etc., etc. I just need to finish three more young bird sections, the widowhood section and the widowhood hen's section, then build the aviaries in the back, then build the shelves, then build the perches, then build the nestboxes for the widowhood section, then put in the counter in the storage section, then install the sink, then...

...Oh crap, I just need to resign myself to the fact that this thing is never going to be done!

I will try to get some more recent pictures up soon. The first round babies are really very cute.

Dan


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> To answer your question, I am trying to finish up the racing side of the loft interior now. Seems I am staying one section ahead of the breeders! I finished the first young bird section the week before I weaned the first round. I just finished the second section and the second round will be ready to wean in about two weeks, etc., etc. I just need to finish three more young bird sections, the widowhood section and the widowhood hen's section, then build the aviaries in the back, then build the shelves, then build the perches, then build the nestboxes for the widowhood section, then put in the counter in the storage section, then install the sink, then...
> 
> 
> 
> Dan


Darn, you made me VERY tired all the sudden.  I do not envy you, that's for sure.


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## SmithFamilyLoft

Dan,

Here is the hard and sometimes cold facts. A fancier's loft is never done !!!  It is really more like a work in progress, because as soon as you complete your list you have there.....at some point, you will want or need to tweak or change something. If you used something like drywall screws, then moving a wall or door...or whatever is rather simple. I would find it highly unlikely, that you have built such a perfect master piece, that you won't be making some changes here and there over the years.

At any rate, I hope you are keeping a photo diary of all this, so you can load up the AU servers with your picture downloads, when that day comes.  Of course, don't forget those pretty window boxes with pretty flowers, and the welcome mat, and make sure you color cordinate the staining of the deck with the siding, and.....well I guess you have enough on that list already.  
Finish up and then us here in the peanut gallery can add more suggestions !!


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## k-will

learning,thats a fine loft you got there.nice boxes too.


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## learning

Here is the latest addition, at least to the outside of the loft. I now have a settling cage/landing board that I can settle the youngsters in. These pictures were taken today and are the first time letting the 1st round taste a little freedom. They seemed to love it and no hawks to be found. In my book that is a successful first time out of the loft!

Dan

View attachment 8232


View attachment 8233


View attachment 8234


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## Lovebirds

learning said:


> Here is the latest addition, at least to the outside of the loft. I now have a settling cage/landing board that I can settle the youngsters in. These pictures were taken today and are the first time letting the 1st round taste a little freedom. They seemed to love it and no hawks to be found. *In my book *that is a successful first time out of the loft!
> 
> Dan


Guess you're reading the right book!!
The birds look GREAT and so does the loft.


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## mubashirha

*Questions regarding wooden lofts*

Can somebody tell me if loft is made of wood in india is it possible that insect will come due to wood for pigeons


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## learning

mubashirha said:


> Can somebody tell me if loft is made of wood in india is it possible that insect will come due to wood for pigeons



I am not sure what types of insects you are refering to. Here in the states we get the usual flies and mosquitos and control them in the normal manor. If you are refering to things like termites, as long as there is gap between the ground and the floor of the building, say 12 inches or so, managing them is simply a matter of looking for their tunnels going up the posts or concrete blocks supporting the loft and scraping them away. 

I don't know what types of bugs you would find in India that might create a unique problem in that part of the world.

Dan


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## Pinacola

I have read that catmint will deter termites.


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