# Squeaker parent death



## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello everyone!

I have 11 white homing pigeons. I found one of them dead behind the loft door this morning and I think it was the mother of the 2 squeakers. 

I think it was the mother because it looks like the one that was with the squeakers most of the time. The father always stands in the box above the nest and I can tell who he is because of the red skin color around his eye.

Will the father feed the squeakers? Does he produce crop milk? Should I take over care of them?

I figure I need to know fast if those buggers start getting hungry. Any help is appreciated! I'm in Fort Collins, CO btw.

Thanks folks!

Alex


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I do believe the father will continue feeding them and just keep a watchful eye out. Now when you say squeakers would not that make them over the pigeon milk feeding and would not they be on seed from the parents at this time and at this time keep a keen eye on the father and babies and if not (if they are on seed then be ready to supplement with seed if necessary) if they are still on pigeon milk then thats another story and I would go to pet smart and by the formula for baby birds just to have it on hand and you could make up your own food for them in a coffee grinder and I will get you a web cite to share the ingredients with you and just give me a minute or two. c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Is the birdie eating seed from the parent that is left or is it still on pigeon milk? This is a real good bird feeding formula for pigeons :http://kjcii.webs.com/handfeeding.htm and I will try the website to make sure it will work for you...Please keep us posted on this thread so that we can be up to date and ready to help you . Also there are stickys here that are very good to read and I am sure other people will give you some links but right now : Is the babies on seed or are they still on pigeon milk? c.hert


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

Ahobbes---just one of many reasons to band/ring all your birds and keep records of who the parents are . who are Brothers & Sisters


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

he should feed them, and you can too to help out.. you can use hand rearing formula if they are still small or pop them some frozen thawed peas and corn, if they seem to need supplementing


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks for the prompt replies folks. 

Sky tx, I should start banding now, I haven't before because I have always been given pre-banded young birds. I do need to keep a better inventory/record.

C. hert, that link is very helpful. Maybe the term I should have used is "squab". They look exactly like the one in those photos.

Spirit wings, either I can make the mash described in that link (http://kjcii.webs.com/handfeeding.htm), which would mean heading over to whole foods and buying the ingredients or I can go to pets mart and pick up the formula.

The birds look healthy, they are active and aware. Their crops don't look full or anything. I'm gonna head over to the store in a bit. Thanks everyone.

Alex


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

ahobbes: If you discover no parent with those birds please don't let them get cold and bring them into your house and keep them warm---this is very important---and I hope you post back to us soon to let us know whats happening as far as you can tell and feel those babies and make sure they do not get cold because to digest their food they need to be warm and not chilled and the food if you supplement with makeing your own needs to be warm too..please post back to keep us up to date....if they are on seed you need to consider water too and the father needs to be feeding them for this...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats wonderful and hope you get the items you need...You need to keep them warm as well and if father is not feeding or sitting on them bring them to the house..thanks for the post--keep us informed....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Don't overfeed them either but enough look at that picture--overfeeding at this age could be fatal and very bad--sorry for all these small notes---and you probley know but just in case.....Let us know and keep us posted...they need to be feed when they are warm with warm food.... c.hert


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

C. Hert, doesn't wild bird seed have sunflower seeds in it? Do I still grind the husks up?

When the squabs switch to seed, will the goto the seed or do I need to bring the seed to them? My feeders are on the floor and they are in the highest nest box. I guess the father would just bring them whole seeds, right?

Is there ever any need to clean out the nest? The parents didn't seem to do a good job. Or do all those droppings serve to insulate?

I do have some research to do!

Alex


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

I think I'll need to bring them inside. The weather is warm but I have never seen the father next to or on the nest.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

ahobbes: That web page never said but I would get sunflower seeds without the husks and since the mama isn't around I would keep a careful eye out especially at night time when the father would not sit on them I suppose and at that young of a age I would bring them into the house and put a heating pad near them to keep the temperature up about 85 to 90 degrees so that they can digest properly because at that young of an age if you feed them cold they might get sour stomach or something ..Feed the about 3 or 4 times aday and space it out so that their crops are empty again and ready for more. the mixture you add water too--this is important and they will get enough water to survive in the mixture--and later as they are doing fine you will switch to seed and they will learn to eat seed on their own and drink at that stage easy--right now either buy the formula or the receipt that I really like--your choice but bring them into the house for they don.t have feathers yet and once they get cold they go down quickly..
Put them in a secure place with heat and feed 4 or 5 times a day--use your judgement here and continually make sure they are kept warm....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am so glad that you are bringing them into the house since they are just babies and would get cold here in colorado if the daddy did sit on them--yes bring them inside...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

The people are that website raised many birds and they are in excellent so I would have faith in the ingredients at this stage of the game --but would use sunflower seeds without husks for sure and some people might put up a fuss with dog food but try to get meatless kind this would be better when you get the ingredients...c.hert


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Good luck with raising the little ones.

I think that you need to be asking why the hen died? If it was illness, there is a good chance the rest of the loft could be infected. If she was killed, what killed her? Don't wish to panic you but that's what I would be investigating if this were one of my birds.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

In case you come back to your thread here in Pigeon-talk under the category of : Injured pigeons and Doves there is a stickey that is named: Basic Life Saving Steps and it is by AZ Whitefeather and you could review this just to make sure all the categories are covered for your squab pigeons that lost their mom and I hope you brought them inside like you said you were going to do and read the posts up till you left us to get busy and get supplies and when you have a chance keep us posted on how the situation is going..It is really windy here in colorado and cold--these babies need to stay warm and I have faith in you to save their precious lives please keep us posted. and if you have any questions just post us all you want...I will check later to see if you did a update for us....c.hert


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

I've been looking at the others for signs of sickness, but there is nothing obvious. I just brought in 6 new birds, they might have carried something in with them. Another reason I should bring in the little ones.

I should mention, the little ones are about 2 weeks old now. They have only a little bit more insulation then the ones on http://kjcii.webs.com/handfeeding.htm . It's 54 degrees F outside right now and the adults aren't sitting on them. I think I can be confident in my decision to bring them in now.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes you can be confident in your decision and how are they doing are you feeding them and did you read the prior posts on this thread before this message.. c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

They need to stay warm and use a heating pad with a towel over it if you have one or a hot water bottle but they don't last too long for you need to keep an eye on the temp. Or even a heat lamp on the side of them--some people want you to shine it right on them but I disagree with this as long as they are warm...read that sticky under sick and injured pigeons and doves titles : Basic life saving steps by AZ whitefeather and this is a good read. What are you feeding them and are you getting food into them okay. c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

There is also a neat website in the United Kingdom and it has basic steps that you could follow for feeding and things like that and the web address is:http://pigeonrescueuk.webs.com/ Of course we are here in the U.S. but it is a very good read to get you confident and me as well to know that you know enough to bring your homers home to be an adult and one must stay attentive and very observant but you get the hang of it really quickly..as when the birds go to eat seed they get the hang of it real quick too. You can wrap a towel around these birdies and set on your lap sort of to control their little wings and keep warm and feed them --this is easier for you and as you feed them check their mouths out for any mucous or yellows spots or a bad smell also check their navals for any spots or discolorations ...Keep us informed a lot of very talented people here who know a whole lot more than me but you did the first step by taking them inside and searching out food items and they are warm...c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you bring in new birds, you should always keep them separate from your other birds for about a month. Not worth bringing sickness into the loft.

Do you know how to feed babies this young? Or how much? They should only be fed once the crop empties. Don't feed them if they still have food in their crop.


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks C. Hert, your help and concern is very much appreciated. I went and got some food from pets mart because I felt I was running out of time. 

I put them in my carry box with some bedding then put a heat pad underneath the box. They are in the laundry room and the inside of the box is significantly warmer.

I tried the feeding method. It was very messy. At first I couldn't get them to eat, so I put their beaks in a bowl of warm water and they drank, then I made a little feeding hole with my fingers and they went right for it. Would it be possible to use some kind of a feeding tool that mimics an adult birds mouth?

They are warm and sleeping in the box. I think it is my turn to eat now!


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay, should I remove the new birds from the loft? There are 2 natives (was 3 yesterday) and 9 newcomers.

I do have some broad spectrum antibiotics on hand but I won't use that unless it is absolutely necessary (very sick bird). It also needs to go subdermal, and I'm reluctant to poke a bird.

I have been feeling the crop and I'm trying to get an idea of what an empty crop and a full crop feel like.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I would remove the new birds from the loft. An empty crop feels flat and empty, while a full crop feels like a squishy little pillow. You can see it puff up, but should be soft and not hard.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just watch them for a few weeks, should be a month. See how they look, act, see how their droppings look. Do you have somewhere to keep them?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Ahobbes: your doing wonderful with the babies and it is good that they are eating and hungry and they are warm and cared for by you and you will get to know when they are hungry a crop should be feeling empty for their next meal and you will be able to tell--do as you are doing just don't overfed and look at that picture of the other baby from the first link you can see the crop full and since these babies are about that young maybe make it a little loser (for now) (less) for now is better than too much and use your judgement here the best you can and observe and you can tell if they are doing okay by their breathing and on how they act---your doing good--get yourself something to eat and rest. Jay3 is talking to you about the other birds in your loft and this is good and she can help you with that end of it...On that link from the united kingdome there are feeding tools to use and it shows you some examples of different feeding tools that you could use--look at those pictures on that link: http://pigeonrescueuk.webs.com and it will give you some ideas...babies are warm and fine for tonight for you did you everything you could and I think you are doing wonderful for they are still alive and doing well....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Ahobbes: This message is for morning time and is there anyway you could maybe get a spoon and bend it with a hammer or something to where you would not hurt yourself and fashion it to feed your babies from it and also if you wet your fingers and put them on the sides of the mouths of the babies gentle and squeese gentle that would get them to open up their little mouths and wrap the innocents in a kitchen towel to keep them in a firm position on your lap or on the table and go for it---its going to be a mess but real real soon they will be digging into what ever you are feeding by themselves because they will recognize it and bingo the birds will love it and keep an eye on their little eyes and if they blink too much they are getting dehydrated and need liquid---I really like plain pedialyte for human babies but with your food you mix the water and they get a drink from that too---your loving it---I can tell--- Three or four times a day--use judgement here and observe your babies real good....Pretty soon when they get a little older there is a real good post by a pigeon-talk person named pdpbison and on april 8th under the category : Found a pigeon or dove now what: title of thread: Need help determing age/feeding schedule by Meldawgofcc and it is post # 37 that is about feeding squeakers and this is interesting for the future use. Your babies are still squabs but it gets you acquainted somewhat anyway. Wrote this in case I can't post early in the morning and I hope you read it. Good morning and have a cup of coffee. c.hert


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Just to know (and I haven't read all the posts here completely), you do not have any other pairs sitting on fake eggs or something ? Squabs can be replaced under them if their would be hatch date is within a 4 - 5 days time.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here is a way to feed them from a cut off syringe. Use the baby bird formula.

http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/syringe_method.htm


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

This is how I feed my babies, I find it MUCH easier!










I cut the nipple half way down - enough to stick their beaks into.
I cut the finger off a rubber glove and slide it over the nipple and put a small cross slit in it (helps keep the mess down).
This is the closest thing I could figure out to duplicate moms mouth 
It works great and only takes 1 hand, leaving the other hand free to pat them while their eating!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That's so cute Waynette. I never see those small bottles around anymore. I used them for puppies years ago. Where do you buy yours?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> That's so cute Waynette. I never see those small bottles around anymore. I used them for puppies years ago. Where do you buy yours?


Walmart! LOL they come in a package of 3


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Walmart! LOL they come in a package of 3


Thanks. I'll check there for them.


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## jeanlee411 (Apr 16, 2010)

c.hert said:


> I do believe the father will continue feeding them and just keep a watchful eye out. Now when you say squeakers would not that make them over the pigeon milk feeding and would not they be on seed from the parents at this time and at this time keep a keen eye on the father and babies and if not (if they are on seed then be ready to supplement with seed if necessary) if they are still on pigeon milk then thats another story and I would go to pet smart and by the formula for baby birds just to have it on hand and you could make up your own food for them in a coffee grinder and I will get you a web cite to share the ingredients with you and just give me a minute or two. c.hert


Is the birdie eating seed from the parent that is left or is it still on pigeon milk? This is a real good bird feeding formula for pigeons :http://kjcii.webs.com/handfeeding.htm and I will try the website to make sure it will work for you...Please keep us posted on this thread so that we can be up to date and ready to help you . Also there are stickys here that are very good to read and I am sure other people will give you some links but right now : Is the babies on seed or are they still on pigeon milk? c.hert
Reply With Quote


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

For really young squabs most I believe would feed their baby birds a formula for very young squabs and it is powder that they mix up and you can buy it in pet stores and also you could get your baby squab formula from a vet most people with babies this young get this type of baby pigeon and bird formula. But in a emergency when the squab is nearing the end of pigeon milk I do believe in this set of ingredients for baby birds as long as it is ground up in a coffee grinder really fine and mixed with water--I would use sunflower seeds without the husks and I would not use the same techique in feeding as the picture shows but as far as the ingredients concerned I saw pictures on that website of a baby from very very early on and as you see in the picture it is thriving and it thrived into an adult bird. Later I am sure they introduced feeding seed to the bird in question. Its a real good loft that has it on its website and yes I believe in the ingredients but not the techique in feeding. In a emergency situation were people can not get Kaytee formula for baby birds I would revert to that formula to feed the squabs if they are older and just about to end the source of pigeon milk or a baby whose parent died at the ending of pigeon milk for some reason. Yes in a emergency situation I would surely use it and if the squab is older. c.hert


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

The squabs are doing great. In the beginning one seemed weaker then the other (eyes closed, slow breathing). But I fed them Kaytee for the last few days and now they are both strong and very loud. I couldn't get the weaker one to eat very easily, so I fed it some warm water out of a spoon before giving it the bottle (the bottle+glove finger method works very well). It was also more likely to eat when I put more water in the mixture, but now it'll take anything. So the next big question is; when do I switch to seed and how? They are almost entirely covered in little feathers (except for the head, which is still yellow, neck and "wrist" areas). They are almost 3 weeks old now.

Thanks everyone for your input. I enjoy reading all of your ideas and methods.

Alex


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I would wait for all their little feathers to be the same color maybe another week or so and one of our pigeon-talk people who is very experienced and excellent has a post on feeding seed to the little ones and I will find where it is and post back to you and I can't remember their name and they are from nevada (psphison I can;t remember but I will get it for you so you can read the post and I am sure other people can tell you their name ...Thats wonderful news ahobbes and I am so happy about the birdies...How are your other birds doing in your loft?? c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Their name is pdpbison just in case they come on the thread and I will send him a personal message to join your thread...c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

ahobbes said:


> The squabs are doing great. In the beginning one seemed weaker then the other (eyes closed, slow breathing). But I fed them Kaytee for the last few days and now they are both strong and very loud. I couldn't get the weaker one to eat very easily, so I fed it some warm water out of a spoon before giving it the bottle (the bottle+glove finger method works very well). It was also more likely to eat when I put more water in the mixture, but now it'll take anything. So the next big question is; when do I switch to seed and how? They are almost entirely covered in little feathers (except for the head, which is still yellow, neck and "wrist" areas). They are almost 3 weeks old now.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your input. I enjoy reading all of your ideas and methods.
> 
> Alex


Can you post a picture of the babies?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I sent him a personal message and asked him to join your thread and I guess in time he will but we all will be keeping an eye on your posting in case you need anything in the way of answering your questions...Your news is just wonderful thank you c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Alex,


Yeahhh...post some images of the youngsters...


Orphan Babys 14 days of age or older which I get in are more than happy to be self feeding via successful Pecking with merely a succession of simple introduction phases, which can be accomplished if one wishes in less than a half hour.

This has many advantages for them, and their care giver.//if they may ( with supervision,) be self feeding by Pecking.

I formula feed if very young, or Hand Feed ( imitation Parent Throat ) whole Seeds in addition to their supervised self feeding Pecking of whole Seeds, till they leave it off out of feeling too grown up for it, which is usually around 40 odd to 50 odd days old...by which time, they are VERY much Grown of course and very strong and usually very proud and self posessed.


Anyway...post some images?


And I will gladly see if I can describe what I do. It is fun and easy and the little Harpies enjoy it very much...they DO love to eat, afterall..!



Phil
Lv


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

I lost one squab the other day. It went downhill fast but it was usually difficult to feed. When I first started handfeeding it was always the quiet and lethargic one. At one point it seemed to get better but a couple days later it was barely able to stand and very hard to feed. The next morning it started vomiting any water I tried to give it then died a few hours later.

The one I'm left with is very active and just started eating seed. This morning I noticed its crop was full (but not too full) of hard stuff - just what I think seed would feel like. I took the seed out and am now just giving it water. I want to make sure I can get the crop nearly depleted again. I take it for short walks around the yard and have started trying to introduce it to the other pigeons. I think I'm gonna put it in my larger cage.

I have a space heater running in the laundry room. It keeps the temp at about 80 during the day. The only place the squab is featherless is in a few spots on its side (under the wing). I'm just wondering how well it can regulate its temperature now. When it's outside and the wind blows I notice it fluffs up, but it actually went to the shade when it was sunny and hot earlier (don't worry I'm not cooking it under the sun).

I think I'm doing well though I am sad about the other squab's death. It never seemed to be healthy - I just got hopeful when I was actually able to feed it for a couple days. I don't think I did anything wrong. I just wish I knew more. I was tempted to do a necropsy to see if I could find anything in the crop. I didn't feel anything. Oh well -I'll put all my energy into this guy now. Selection pressure is neat - 2 eggs are always better than one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well something killed the Mom and the baby. Babies don't just die from nothing. Canker? Salmonella? It would be helpful to know, as this baby may need medication. Would have been helpful if you had posted a picture of the sick baby. Also you have to be very careful when feeding water to babies, as you can aspirate them. If the crop doesn't empty, then try feeding it a little warm applesauce (not hot). That may help the crop to empty. How old is he now?


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Are you suggesting the mom and the baby died from the same thing? After the baby died I cleaned everything. I think I will switch to the bigger cage now, this will help prevent any disease from spreading. Nothing has been in it for a while and it's clean.

When the baby died its crop was nearly empty, I could only get it to eat a little but I was afraid to force it. It wouldn't stand and feces was building up around its cloaca so I cleaned it off. It's eyes were droopy and I could see mucousy food flowing out of its mouth when I dipped its beak in water. At first I thought it was drinking but it was just cycling water through its nares. Before it died its legs were slightly bluish. Its breathing was very slow. I think that's the best I can describe it, if I think of anything I'll post it.

About the living one. The crop is emptying and I haven't given it much water at all. I don't think it knows how to drink yet. It is squeaking loudly, flapping its wings and doesn't seem to be in pain when I massage its crop. I'll stay with it and keep you updated.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes. I am suggesting that the Mom was sick and passed something on to the baby. And that the baby needed medicine, and this one might be carrying something too.


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

I have lincomycin hydrochloride as a soluble powder. It says to dose at 250 mg per gallon of water or 3.8 mg per pound of body weight. I cannot diagnose bacterial vs. viral and I am not sure if this is the right MOA. I think I will take the squab to the raptor center tomorrow morning. I have some friends there that might be able to help.


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

I want to give it some antibiotics. What should I give?


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

It's getting slower and quieter. I think it's sick now.


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## ahobbes (Mar 9, 2010)

Definitely heading to the raptor center ASAP.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

ahobbes, I hope the baby is OK...you are doing good to take it and have it looked at. It's hard to self medicate when you have no diagnosis. You tried to help the other baby, don't blame yourself. Anxiously awaiting an update! Sincerely, Pigeonlove


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you post a picture of the baby? Is it missing feathers anywhere, like the throat maybe?


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