# Pigeon unable to fly, seems healthy.



## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

On going out to check my mail.. I found a pigeon sitting on the outside stairs to my building. I have lived here for about 5 years, and you never see larger birds in the stairwell, especially sitting near the door. It's like they all have this understanding that it's a "Human High Traffic Area" 

So I go to my mailbox.. and it's really close to the door.. the pigeon only moves a little, like you can tell he wants to get away from the door. I know something's up... So I wait for a few people to pass by.. don't want to look like a nut going after this bird.. or risk other people getting involved and cause the bird more harm (at this point, I don't know what could be wrong with the bird).

I would say, it's a young bird.. as most older birds I see around here, their feet are dull and damaged from city life... this bird's feet are VERY bright orange with gleaming black claws.. His eyes are very bright and his feathers very sleek and clean looking.

I thought maybe he might have been a homing pigeon that lost his way.. but examining his legs, I didn't find a ring, and I really don't know of anyone in my area that keeps pigeons..

I currently have two Eurasian Collared Doves, so knew what to look for as far as wings go. He's currently hanging out in my bathroom (it's carpeted) as I feel kind of bad to cage him... since it's a very good chance he's never been caged. And my birds, are only "caged" at night, I leave the door open, and they go back there to sleep. 

Naturally, though, since I don't know if this bird has any parasites, etc.. their cage door is closed to keep them away from our new guest.

My goal is to help this bird, and not scare him half to death in the process.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fujishima,



Yes...appears to be a sub-adult.


Can you post some good, close-up images of his poops?


Where are you located?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

His poops seem pretty typical of the pigeons around here.. minus the green and yellow, and of course large size. They're quite thin... but I'm sure pigeons here are exposed to a lot of terrible things... especially here.

His first poops were very small, thin and solid white, and chalky (obvious indication of high uric acid in his system). I don't think he really had eaten much. I have given him the same food I give my doves, and given him only spring water... now his poops have thickened slightly and have black in them and have increased in size. Black, I know is bile and not true feces... so I'm hoping by tomorrow I will see a change in them... to a dark green... EDIT... we just had very dark green poo, no longer black.

First poops were smaller than a dime... they have more than doubled in size.

I'm sure he wasn't getting enough to eat... being injured, I'm certain the other pigeons in the neighborhood would chase him away from food. (u_u)


I currently live in Worcester, MA

Please, call me Akiko.. Fujishima is my last name... ^__^

The photo posted is the best I can get in the lighting available.. my flash is monstrous and bleaches out everything.. no matter the setting... (=__=)

So basically.

Feces - very dark green
Urates - creamy-white color, and opaque with chalky appearance
Urine - clear

Droppings are without odor.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, thanks for helping this little guy out and welcome to Pigeon-Talk.

As Phil mentions. looks to be a young bird, but at an age flight should not be a problem if things were right for him. I wouldn't mind making sure we cover our basis for him, so please go over him very carefully and make sure the are no signs that he was attacked by a cat (small puncture wounds or scraped buried deep in his feathers) also gently open his mouth and have a look inside and see if you see any cheesy growths, feel his crop area to see if you feel anything in there, sometimes they will swallow something that sticks in their crop that causes pain and stops them from eating, so since he is not eating you want to feel nothing large and hard, other than a few seeds if has eaten.

Since you have Doves, this will make things easier, since you will familiar with their handling, and pigeons in reality are just big Doves. He may need some medicines, many times the medicines required can be purchased at a Tropical Fish store, here is a link, to start, of stores in your area, call and see if the have two products, one called Triple Sulfa by API and the other is Metronidazole, it could also be called Fishzole or Hex-A-Mit. Any chance of a vet visit for him?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&r...+MA+tropical+fish&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

If you could hand pick out any of the sunflower seeds from his food this would be good as if he has any blockages, we need small food for him. Also if he does not start to eat in the next day we will need to hand feed him, here is a link to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Sometimes we recommend feeding thawed frozen peas/corn, but if he is not eating I would much prefer we start him on some bird pellets, that break down easy with contact with water to make sure we are not going to block him up with food that will not pass through his GI tract, you may even have some around for your Doves, if you don't, get the Parakeet size as your Doves will be able to eat them as well, as they are very good for making a more balanced diet for our birds, I provide both pellets and seeds for my birds:

http://www.zupreem.com/our-food/birds/natural-bird-food

Is he drinking on his own?... if not gently guide his beak into some tepid water so he comes to know there is water in the dish for him, he may not drink but he will know there is water there. Also, if you happen to have a kitchen scale around, it would be good to get a weight on him as well.

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for all the advice. I did give him a very good checking over.. as much as I could without upsetting him.. He's feral and would give such an "attitude"..hissing and puffing up like Al Capone... hehe. As far as I can see, there are no physical injuries.. punctures, cuts or otherwise. All I see is some "twisting" and separation of the pennaceous barbs in a few of the back flight feathers... but that's happened to my birds before, and it did not effect their flight.

I think he was not getting food when I found him.. as his initial poops were completely urates... though I know it's not uncommon for a bird to only release urates for a day every once and a while. 

Now his poops are normal.. and he's eating. He's getting smaller seeds.. also being vegan, I have an endless stock of organic millet and wheat berries, and other grains I often give my birds as treats. My doves are extremely finicky... wouldn't touch a sunflower seed if it meant not starving to death... so I painstakingly weed out the sunflower seeds out of 20lb bags of bird seed.. haha!

He's also drinking, but mostly he sits huddled up in his breast. I go over to talk to him and stroke his head every hour or so.. I don't want to push him, but I do want him to feel comfortable with me so he's not so stressed.

Yes, I tend to refer to pigeons as Rock Doves.. that's what we called them where I grew up. My son has already fallen in love with him and named him "Bird"... my son is 3. I asked him to be clear.. what the bird's name was.. and he said "The bird's name is Bird, momma, I like the name Bird for the bird." 

Yes, I think a vet visit is in the very near future... as I would feel better knowing that he's fine, and completely healthy.

I'm thinking it's possible that he was stunned by a hawk... they are very common here, and I've seen many a pigeon knocked out of the sky by hawks here....

I may not be a vet.. however, I do work in the medical profession, and have been rescuing animals since I was 5. However, I just wanted to check here.. as this is my first time dealing with a pigeon... and one this age.. my rescues have typically been abandoned baby birds and animals, that I nursed and released.

I just hope I don't ever have to find an injured hawk... full body armor isn't currently part of my wardrobe..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, he looks to be well feathered, with good, healthy appearing plumage, so it just may be what you suggested, stunned by a hawk, but there are also a few infections, and poisons, that can cause an other wise healthy looking bird to go to ground, so we have to keep an open mind on how he got like this for a bit.

Give him until tomorrow night to rest up a bit, and if you don't mind, find a room in your house, that's closed in, where you could give him a quick test to see if he feels like flying, if he is still reluctant to fly, or flies with no real strength or ability, there may be more at hand than being stunned, as his wings are being held well in the photo and he looks unhurt. I suggested night so you can just turn the light off in the room and quickly round him up again.

Now that he is eating, if you could post some updated photos of his droppings (a few more of him from different angles would be good as well) it would be helpful. Don't forget to have a look in his mouth/throat area and if a weight can be taken, please post this as well.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Akiko,


What you are calling poops appears to be merely Bile.


You can test it ( the 'green' part ) by smearing some onto a sheet of White Paper.


Smear it into a streak with a finger tip, and, if it is a sort of pigmented jell, no fibre, it is Bile.


If it is fecal matter, it will have merely a thin pigment aspect and have fibre.


Urates look typical of serious Liver troubles, or some orders of systemic infection, probably Canker ( whether or not any signs are seen in his Throat).


I would not allow this Bird any Seeds untill carefully checking their Crop, to see if the Crop has any contents which can be felt/palpated.


If his Crop has old Seeds in it which are not passing, allowing further eating could be very bad.



Please report back on whether the 'green' is Bile or fecal matter...and, on whether his Crop seems to have anything in it.


I would see about local sources of, for obtaining Metronidazole and maybe also Enroflaxin/Baytril/Cipro and possibly also Medistatin.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Unfortunately I don't have a kitchen scale... something told me months ago that I should have ordered that postage scale.. =___= On handling.. he does feel a little thinner than he should be, when I compare him to my own birds... "plumpness" wise... he seems to be a little less plump than they are... but not by much...but he feels solid, not emaciated or frail. I checked his throat and mouth.. looks perfectly fine to me.. pinkish red, and clear... no white spots or anything that would cause me to question it's appearance.

I'm really thinking this is a wing issue... even though he sits with them set evenly.. when he goes to run from the crazy lady trying to care for him.. he throws one out farther than the other... I double checked the wing.. I feel nothing there.. no broken bones.. he doesn't fight or pull his wing away, like I have experienced with other birds with fractured or broken wings.

His droppings are the same...green "solid" feces, creamy-white to off-white chalky urates, and clear urine.. It's difficult, as my camera is only a Samsung SL30, not the best, and getting angles is hard because right now, for his safety, he's in a very large 106 quart capacity rubbermaid tub.

He seems to have relaxed a bit since last night.. he's preening, and has ruffled his feathers out a few times, and was less temperamental when I approached him just 5 minutes ago.

I'm going to see if I have any packing paper left and see if he'll do a good poo on that... maybe I can get a better photo tomorrow when the light is better and I don't need to use the flash on my camera.

It would be so much easier to send different types of photos if I had an extra pair of hands... sadly the one friend that could help.. has a bird phobia...even my docile human loving birds make her scream if they are loose in the room when she visits....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

fujishima_akiko said:


> I'm really thinking this is a wing issue... even though he sits with them set evenly.. when he goes to run from the crazy lady trying to care for him.. he throws one out farther than the other... I double checked the wing.. I feel nothing there.. no broken bones.. he doesn't fight or pull his wing away, like I have experienced with other birds with fractured or broken wings.


Akiko, might still be a broken wing, there are a few small bones one near the base of the wing and one further up that are very hard to detect a break without an x-ray. I know this because I had a bird with a broken radius bone that I felt a number of times and could not detect the break. My vet even remarked it was very hard to detect even for him and he needed an x-ray to confirm. So, even hands with a good deal of experience can miss one of these breaks, but uneven use of this wing may be a good indicator something is not right with it. If you could take a photo directly over him, it may help to see if he is holding them even, or if one has moved forward a bit.

May have some other issues as well, I know you say he is eating and food is passing, but I think if you could get up a few photos of his droppings, even before the others, it would be good.

Glad he is settling in a bit and throat and mouth were clear, but as Phil mentions, this does not completely rule out a trichomoniasis (canker) infection, how his droppings are looking will help us further with this.

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Akiko,
> What you are calling poops appears to be merely Bile.
> You can test it ( the 'green' part ) by smearing some onto a sheet of White Paper.
> Smear it into a streak with a finger tip, and, if it is a sort of pigmented jell, no fibre, it is Bile.


Did the poo test.. and it's poo... latex gloves in hand... lol. Fibers visible and pale pigmentation. I called a vet earlier today (caught him as he was closing, but he took the time to talk to me) I described the droppings in better detail to him and he says they're perfectly normal. In fact since the time I called him, they were and still are looking exactly like my two dove's droppings. 

However, with the wing issue... I'm taking him in on Tuesday.. we only have one vet in the area that specializes in birds (the one I called).. and he's not open again until Tuesday...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Akiko,


Well, as far as the image you posted, fecal matter of that sort of green and kelly-like look, we would have to assume has an inordinate level of Bile in it.

The Urates, appear yellow and curdled.


This is not normal or healthy, and, does signify some problems are present.


If your Doves are making the same sorts of droppings, there is something not-well with them also.


Your Pigeon has had a lot of stress lately, and, often, this occasions various illnesses, even if none were present prior to the trauma event or other eventuation which grounded the Bird.


So, keep an eye on things with that in mind.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Akiko,
> 
> 
> Well, as far as the image you posted, fecal matter of that sort of green and kelly-like look, we would have to assume has an inordinate level of Bile in it.
> ...



Phil,

Thats just called a bad photo... 

My camera yellows things that are white when I don't use the flash...(if I used the flash, it would have completely bleached out the entire photograph) and my unsteady hand caused the "shine" that appears on the feces. That shine isn't actually there... and his urates are not yellow, they are without a doubt creamy-white color... not pure white, but creamy white or off-white like they should be. My camera made it look like that.. the "curdle" was because the bird stepped in it.. and little "peaks" raised. But it was the clearest poop I had from him at the time... because the rest he had ran through and smeared all over.. so I took that shot before changing the papers and giving his feet a bath. 

Also I think you're missing some key things I've said... the pigeons droppings have changed since I rescued him... They did appear to be only bile after day 2... but by the evening dramatically improved.

Let me do it this way.

Evening 1 - 3 passings of white, chalky urates only (I found him in the evening)

Day 2 - (Obviously bile) Blackish droppings with white loose urates, and clear urine

Afternoon2 - Dark green, pudding-like droppings, loose urates and clear urine.

Evening 2 - Green solid feces, semi-solid urates, and clear urine.. looking like every single bird's poop I've seen.

His droppings went from being very poor looking to looking normal like my bird's poops... 

I hope I've made it more clear in this response. Sorry if there was any confusion.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, thanks for the clarification on the progress on this bird's droppings moving from the bile droppings when you first rescued him, to more normal look droppings, once he started to feed and drink, much like your own Doves. One of the issues we run into with a good deal of the birds people come to us for help with is that they sometimes have multiple issues at once, many times one of these issues is canker and can be deadly for them if left untreated. That is is why the emphasis was placed on seeing continued photos of his droppings, as indications of many issues can be gleaned from these photos, so when you get a chance, please do post up so new photos of his droppings, as we do like to look at droppings here .

Thanks you so much for going to the trouble, and expense, of getting this guy into the vet for a check, if there are any issues, just say he is your pet and you may need a name for him depending on how this particular vet does things. Please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

*Pigeon Poop Photos*

Luckily we had a very sunny day here, so I was able to get a few clearer photographs. I lined the Rubbermaid tub with white paper so I could get a good sample.

I have also put a dropping from my doves for size and solidity comparative reasons.. not coloration, as picking up a fresh poo would have squished it. The pigeon poop was a fresher sample, it had been out of his body for a little while, as it was cold to the touch when I did a second smear test for a photo as well. The dove poo is about 3 days old. 

I don't know why, but he seems to like to stomp on his poos that have urine in them... o__O If I try to check on him to see if there is one with urine.. he goes bonkers... I was lucky to snatch this one up before he ran all over it.. 

My camera still made the color a little off, but not by much.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Akiko,



Well, the poops certainly look alright, so that's good.


Who knows, maybe he glanced off a Car windshield or something, got some blunt trauma and was feeling ughy, some injury or sprain or contusion to his Wing, and even globally maybe.


So, I guess just see how things go with rest and relaxation and good chow.


Probably best if no flying attempts are allowed for a couple to three weeks.


What kind of Doves do you have?



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, thanks very much for getting the photos up, I agree with Phil, his droppings look pretty decent, that along with my first impression of the initial photo you posted of this guy, that he looks to be in very nice condition leads us now to focus our attention toward his wing.

I second the thought of keeping his activities down, to avoid use of the wing, let him rest up and let's see what the vet has to say on Tuesday.

Nice job,

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> What kind of Doves do you have?
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas



I have two male Eurasian Collared Doves, named 鳩　[Hato] - (pronounced Hahtoe in English) (dove in Japanese) and 羽根　[Hane] - (pronounced Hahneh in English) (feather in Japanese).

I got them from the local "freecycle" group.. the lady that had them had fallen ill and was looking for a good home.. so I offered mine. The cage she had them in was too small... should have seen their feathers... 

However, they are attached to their cage.. tried giving them a bigger one, they wanted nothing to do with it.. so I decided from then on, I would always leave their door open.. they fly in there to eat, poo, and sleep.. otherwise, they have free reign.

The first pics are when I got them... you can see their feathers are a bit of a mess.. then later shots, of how they looked after molting and growing new ones.

More photos available here. http://picasaweb.google.com/108606380245713724281/Birds#


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry I haven't updated everyone on my feathered guest. I wasn't feeling too good most of the day... had a bit of a bug. Anyway... unfortunately, it looks like this fellow will never fly again. There was an old break to his wing, near to his body, and it did not heal properly.. that is why he can't extend his wing fully. The vet was surprised that he managed to survive this long on his own, and that he wasn't in worse condition than he initially was. I had taken all the photos of his droppings with me to show the vet.

So, it looks like I have a new adopted gent to care for. He's a welcome addition, and to be honest, I've grown quite fond of him, he's a quirky individual. And still likes to show that he's "the man". Even from across the room, if he hears my doves, or even sees them, he puffs up to make himself look huge... like he can take any opponent even though he has a handicap. That's one tough bird. ^___^


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, I am glad you were able to get a diagnosis as to what exactly this little guy's problem is. I must say, I am surprised as well that he looks as well as he does for a bird that has been grounded for some time, plus the fact that they don't usually last very long in the wild, without flight, as this is their key means of escaping predation. So they did an x-ray that showed an old break that has healed, was it the humerus bone?

One more thing I would like you to do is have a look under each wing and see if he has any pigeon lice on his body (they like it under the wing area) they will look like thin, little brown pencil marks that will move deeper into the feathers when touched. Not all ferals have them (easy to get rid of if he does), but since he is a new permanent member of the family, we might as well be sure.

I am glad he found his way into your hands, please keep us updated on him.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Akiko,



Beautiful Doves..!


Well, too bad about the Wing...but, glad to hear he has a good home now with you and the Doves!


With time, some seemingly unable to fly old Wing-break ones, can end up able to fly somewhat afterall, so time will tell.

This can be months or years sometimes to occur, but, I have seen it quite a few times.



Some may only manage chair height, others table top height, but, some can do it eventually, allowing them a little more variety for their indoor Life activities.



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Akiko,
> 
> Beautiful Doves..!
> 
> ...


Yes, my heart did sink a bit when the vet said that to me, but I usually tend to have a very positive outlook and thought the same.. doctors can only go by what they see presently in front of them and make a diagnosis on what they see. They are certainly not psychics...lol. If people who have strokes with a severity that a doctor says they'll never talk or walk again defy the diagnosis.. then surly the same is possible for a strong willed bird like this little guy.

But, I know why they say what they say.. working with doctors.. they don't want to give hope when there is a very good chance that there is none for even decent recovery.

So for now, I'll just concentrate on taming him a bit so he's not so stressed when approached... he tends to go a bit crazy when you get too close.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

sad to hear about his wing, don't give up hope completely on this guy, as far as release goes.
i've had several birds, most recently a baby crow that i was told would never fly 
but given time were able to fly and fly well enough to be released.
so it is possible
i'm not to far from you if you ever need any help


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Akiko, I am glad you were able to get a diagnosis as to what exactly this little guy's problem is. I must say, I am surprised as well that he looks as well as he does for a bird that has been grounded for some time, plus the fact that they don't usually last very long in the wild, without flight, as this is their key means of escaping predation. So they did an x-ray that showed an old break that has healed, was it the humerus bone?
> 
> One more thing I would like you to do is have a look under each wing and see if he has any pigeon lice on his body (they like it under the wing area) they will look like thin, little brown pencil marks that will move deeper into the feathers when touched. Not all ferals have them (easy to get rid of if he does), but since he is a new permanent member of the family, we might as well be sure.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was the top part of his humerous... The vet gave him a good looking over, besides his poorly healed bone.. he got a perfect bill of health, no parasites or even so much as an upset stomach. Like I said, he's one tough little bird. ^___^ Definitely a survivor for sure. So, with any luck (he seems to have tones of it!) he'll die an old feathered fart. ^___^


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Akiko,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always thought that.. bodies of any living creature are amazing factories of self healing.. Like just the other night, he managed to somehow (I didn't see him do it) get out of the Rubbermaid storage container. It's about 2 feet deep... Heard a noise, turned around and he's strutting across the living room floor bold as you please... ^___^


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

altgirl35 said:


> sad to hear about his wing, don't give up hope completely on this guy, as far as release goes.
> i've had several birds, most recently a baby crow that i was told would never fly
> but given time were able to fly and fly well enough to be released.
> so it is possible
> i'm not to far from you if you ever need any help


Thanks.. best case he flies and is able to return to what feels most natural to him and my son being broken hearted (not good, but part of being a kid sometimes) Worse case, he regains flight far too late and somewhat trusts people because of being around my son and I and it not being so safe for him anymore in the city.

He's already eating from my hand, and has stopped running from me when I go to change his bedding, food and water. But, I've always had this rather creepy ( my mother called it creepy, my friends call it creepy) affinity with animals.. ones that are supposed to be vicious and bite everyone but their owner.. to wild animals approaching me with seemingly no fear (no, not rabid ones...lol).

Just for me, I'm happy I was the one to find him and that I found him when I did. I really dread to think what might have happened to him if I hadn't gone out to check my mail when I did.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One nice way of being sociable, is to have a Towel draped over your Lap, the Pigeon standing on the Towel, and, a little Bowl of Seeds in front of him...


You 'pecking' with a crook'd index finger, and, inviting him to peck also.

After the meal, a nice back rub-back-massage, including the Shoulder and lower Neck muscles...done to their scale for pressure and so on, of course...Lol...

Once accepting this, the Pigeon will lie down and nestle in, totally relaxed.

This then helps in alleviating any anxieties they may have about being safe and welcome.


Picking them up, can be upsetting to them if their balance is not respected, so that is an other area where deference is very important.


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> One nice way of being sociable, is to have a Towel draped over your Lap, the Pigeon standing on the Towel, and, a little Bowl of Seeds in front of him...
> 
> 
> You 'pecking' with a crook'd index finger, and, inviting him to peck also.
> ...


Yes, I pretty much treat him like I do my doves.. but with added care... I don't pick him up... I usually will stroke his head, and back after giving him some food and water, sometimes he'll squat down and nestle on the bottom of the bin he's in, other times he'll just stand there and cock his head to the left or right. The only times I pick him up was to give him a good looking over, and when he somehow managed to get out of the bin, and when I change his bedding. When I change his bedding, I just let him run around on the floor. I feel, when he's ready to be held, he'll walk into my open palm of his own volition.  Never rushed a thing in my life... not going to start with him.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

fujishima_akiko said:


> I feel, when he's ready to be held, he'll walk into my open palm of his own volition.



Might be a long wait...or even never.


Lol...


Time will tell.



If he was a house-Bird since his injury, he may have had some interaction certainly, with people, and might come around sooner than if he had not.

I deal with a lot of very sick and injured and PPMV ones, Wild Pigeons as it were, and often they are terrified and very stressed, caught by others and brought here, where, the catch clumsey antics of getting them rounded up definitely freaked them out on top of everything else...so, details depending, we will do these and other things, and, in a few days, they are all wiggles and stmbleing up to the Cage door for social-time Lap Towel Pecking and Back rubs and so on.


I do have to rush things here in order to alleviate their stress or worries or conflicts about being caged and handled for various procedures and managements.


Otherwise, I doubt they would ever just walk onto my Palm! Lol...not these ones anyway.


Without these methods of making friends, many of these Pigeons or Doves would remain very stressed and upset about being handled.


Your Pigeon may have been someone's Pet, an indoor or Aviary Bird who had an old Injury and was not release-able, who somehow got away, or got tossed because they could not keep him anymore, or, got his injury and managed anyway in the Wild, somehow, as a Ground Bird.

Ground Birds usually would not survive long though, so...one kind of has to wonder what his history is.


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

*GRRR That stupid vet!*

Ok... so I was holding the bird, because he keeps getting out of the bin he's in.. he's trying to fly.. and when I go after him, he manages about 6 to 8 inches off the floor... if he jumps from my hands he can clear the length of the room (it's a large room, about 18 to 20ft). So, I'm gently scratching his neck, and he nuzzles down into the crook of my arm.. 

Then I notice something... some white thing protruding from his feathers... wasn't there before.. so I spread the feathers a bit, and I don't see that it's connected to his body.. so I gently scratch at it.. thinking it's maybe a hull from a seed stuck in his feathers.

Then I see them, on the top of his plumage... bird lice! I was livid... because there were like 8 of them.. how could a vet have missed this?! (He works with cats and birds, even says "Feline & Bird Vet" on his business cards and site sign) 

So, I called up my friend, and she has a vet in Boston who actually specializes in ONLY birds... we went out there, and he recommended some spray from PetCo.

http://www.petco.com/shop/product.a...tPrice&cm_cat=72 &cm_pla=113719&cm_ite=113719

It should be here by Monday... ordered it as soon as I got home.

I am just ticked at the vet... you think you can trust someone.. I even saw him examine the bird carefully. It's a good thing he's not had any contact with my birds. I dusted my carpets with some avian lice treatment that a neighbor had to kill any that may have gotten into my carpeting... but I don't feel good dusting the bird with it.. I feel better with the spray. 

So when it gets here.. it's covering his little head and spraying under and over all his feathers.... poor little guy!

Ugh, I can't believe the incompetence of that vet... *rant!* 

I just wonder how long it'll take to end this bird's suffering... the vet said it could take up to a month or two... poor bird... 

I'm generally a calm person... but I really want to give that vet a piece of my mind and not in a very calm way... (=___=#)


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I would not expect a Vet to notice a few Lice.

They will not tend to roil up to the surface to be visible unless you are holding the Bird for a minute or so anyway, they would stay down under the Feathers.

They will begin to emerge when the Bird has an other Bird ( or a person's hands' ) against them long enough for the Lice to begin to mobilise to move onto the new Host.


End his suffering?


I thought this was understood to be an old Wing injury?


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> I would not expect a Vet to notice a few Lice.
> 
> They will not tend to roil up to the surface to be visible unless you are holding the Bird for a minute or so anyway, they would stay down under the Feathers.
> 
> ...



The vet handled him for quite a while though, checking is feathers, etc.

Yes, I'm sure the lice are bothersome for him.. any level of annoyance to me is a type of suffering.. I'm sure he would me a lot more comfortable without them.

Even after I found them, and we went to the vet in Boston.. he found them in less than 2 minutes...

The vet here spent much more time handling the bird, because he gave him a complete examination, which was about 3 days ago. From what the vet in Boston told me, and what I read, it takes about 3 weeks for new eggs to hatch... 

I really feel the first vet should have seen them.. considering he did a check for them and handled the bird quite a bit.


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## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

I Use Adams Flea And Tick For Dogs Just Spray Under Each Wing And Around The Vent For Mites And Lice Also The Bird Looks Young He Needs Grit To Digest The Feed Or It Can Not Be Utilized


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

loftkeeper said:


> I Use Adams Flea And Tick For Dogs Just Spray Under Each Wing And Around The Vent For Mites And Lice Also The Bird Looks Young He Needs Grit To Digest The Feed Or It Can Not Be Utilized


Thanks, I'll just use what the vet in Boston suggested. 

I have grit.. I mix it in with his feed.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Just fan out the Wings, protect his Eyes and Face, and mist gently the undersides and his Neck and chest areas...repeat again in a few days so you will do say, three applications in 9 days.


Wait about two weeks, the repeat the 3 times in 9 days.



Light applications done ths way are better than a single heavy one.



First Vet may have had cold hands.


The Lice will not usually bother roiling out of their concealment under the Fathers, unless a palpably warm and at least somewhat pressing presence is detected.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

fujishima_akiko said:


> Thanks, I'll just use what the vet in Boston suggested.
> 
> I have grit.. I mix it in with his feed.


Akiko, the spray you linked, is the one I would have recommended to you, had the lice been picked up on earlier, when I asked you to check and Phil has given you a good plan and instructions on how to treat with the spray to eliminate these unwanted pests.

With the grit, we don't usually mix it into their food, but supply it in a separate dish, along side their food and water ones, and they will take what they need when they feel to.

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Akiko, the spray you linked, is the one I would have recommended to you, had the lice been picked up on earlier, when I asked you to check and Phil has given you a good plan and instructions on how to treat with the spray to eliminate these unwanted pests.
> 
> With the grit, we don't usually mix it into their food, but supply it in a separate dish, along side their food and water ones, and they will take what they need when they feel to.
> 
> Karyn


I did the separate bowl... he just would "dance" in it throwing grit everywhere, and my son sees it.. and to him it's sand, so he would reach in there and play with it... I really had no other choice.  "Mix" was a wrong choice of words..I basically put the food to one side of the bowl and grit on the other. Since he has the lice, I do tend to change his food, bedding and grit daily.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, perhaps try a deeper dish, a lot of us here use ramekins for their dishes, here is a link below to show the kind. If you put a tablespoon full in they can not throw it out as easy because of the higher sides, you don't need to put a lot in the dish at one time. What size/type grit are you providing?

http://www.cookware.com/BIA-Cordon-Bleu-900012-BIA1037.html

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Akiko, perhaps try a deeper dish, a lot of us here use ramekins for their dishes, here is a link below to show the kind. If you put a tablespoon full in they can not throw it out as easy because of the higher sides, you don't need to put a lot in the dish at one time. What size/type grit are you providing?
> 
> http://www.cookware.com/BIA-Cordon-Bleu-900012-BIA1037.html
> 
> Karyn


I give him the same grit I use for my doves, this site has the same grit I use.

http://www.dovecentral.co.uk/Grit-amp-Minerals-Sales/Dove-Grit-2kg/prod_20.html

I did try a deeper dish the only one I had (I'm Japanese, the only deep dishes I tend to have are large and only for serving, I don't use Western style dishes...too big  )... he would just sit down in it..like he was in a nest or something and it would end up being full of droppings...lol I think he sat in it to feel safe... like how a child might cram themselves in a corner when shy. I've thought about just using my blender or a mortar and pestal to crack the seeds for him so there won't be need for grit.

That's what I did for my doves before I was able to find them grit. I'd just put a handful of seeds at a time in my blender and pulse them. Or crack them with mortar and pestal while I was doing something like watching a movie.

I wonder, do any of you think he would like organic cracked wheat berries? I give them to my doves on occasion as a treat, and they love them.


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

*Interesting..*

I've been reading up on pigeons since I found him... I'm a bit of a nerd and research pretty much everything I come into personal contact with. I found a few websites that talked about pigeon eye color coinciding with age. If they have correct information.. then this guy is young like mentioned by repliers here.

The photograph I took of him is dishonest in his eye color.. 

All the pigeons I ever saw had these orange or red eyes... all adults.. this guy is a youngster.. ^__^ First thing I noticed about him when I was nuzzling him the day I found his unwanted feather tenants, was his beautiful brown/hazel eyes. The sites mentioned that full adults will have the orange or red and that young birds 6 to 8 months old will have brown or greyish brown eyes. Could he really be that young? I got my doves as adults.. so I have not seen what a dove would look like at those ages.

Also, he might be a girl.. lol.

I always thought with pigeons that the males were that mountain rock color, the dark gray and light gray in a flecked pattern across their body.. with a rather highly iridescent hackle. And that the females were usually the same type of pattern, but more of a tan to sand in coloration and less noticeable iridescent hackle. As I tend to see them a lot..

From reading I found the females can be exactly the same coloration as males.. and the thing to go by is the hackle. This pigeon only has minimal iridescence on it's hackle... not that strong noticeable purple that glimmers like you see on male doves.. It's barely there at all, just a few flecks of iridescence here and there..

So, Houston, I think we have a lady. ^___^


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Akiko, the grit you are using looks OK, but photos can be deceiving sometimes, so just make sure it is not fine grit, like rough sand, but like very tiny pebbles. Walmart has these ramekins for a few dollars, if you are get by them at all, many other places as well. You do not have to grind/crack the seeds up for him, he should be fine as is, most likely, because he was wild, he already has some grit in his gizzard (ventriculus) and they really don't need a lot as mentioned. Females with increase their intake, especially of the oyster shell grit when laying, to instinctively supply their body with extra calcium/minerals. Organic wheat berries should be fine for him, you can mix a bit in with his regular seeds to see if he likes them.

Here is a link to a pigeon supply store, most things they have there can also be used for Doves.

http://www.nepigeonsupplies.com/

If you do a search of the site here, you will find a number of threads on the many signs, and ways, pigeon fanciers use to determine sex, everything from dowsing with a pendulum, to head size, to width of pubis bones. There are only a few 100% certain ways, a couple are; through DNA testing of blood/feathers or if the bird lays eggs. Some methods are more reliable than others, but many experienced people still occasionally get it wrong.

Karyn


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Akiko, the grit you are using looks OK, but photos can be deceiving sometimes, so just make sure it is not fine grit, like rough sand, but like very tiny pebbles. Walmart has these ramekins for a few dollars, if you are get by them at all, many other places as well. You do not have to grind/crack the seeds up for him, he should be fine as is, most likely, because he was wild, he already has some grit in his gizzard (ventriculus) and they really don't need a lot as mentioned. Females with increase their intake, especially of the oyster shell grit when laying, to instinctively supply their body with extra calcium/minerals. Organic wheat berries should be fine for him, you can mix a bit in with his regular seeds to see if he likes them.
> 
> Here is a link to a pigeon supply store, most things they have there can also be used for Doves.
> 
> ...


They are pebbles designed especially for doves. Sorry, I do not shop at WalMart (for moral reasons), but thank you for the suggestion. I remember when I was little I heard the only way to tell was by taking them to a vet and opening them up (well back then anyway). I'm glad they use a less traumatic method these days. Though, I know with many species of bird, the male is always more brightly colored than the female, and the female more colored like her nesting surroundings to protect her and the eggs.

Though, since both male and female pigeons sit on the eggs, I suppose that would not apply to them... hmmm. Dowsing with a pendulum.. now that's funny... 

I think I'll just wait to see if there are ever any eggs, my two doves never laid a single egg, they try to mate with each other..lol. When they caught notice of the pigeon, they started making mating calls at it, and the pigeon would react by getting as far away as possible (to the opposite end of the bin, in the opposite direction of my doves) haha.

Which makes me kind of curious... would birds naturally do something like that.. mix with a different type of bird... I know breeders do things like that... hmmmm I'm not thinking of breeding them or anything, just the question came to mind when my two male doves started showing off and making calls... 


Thank you for the link. I shall give them a look.

Akiko


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Could be your Doves are both males...


An by now, possibly a Hen of any Avian Species is looking pretty good.


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Could be your Doves are both males...
> 
> 
> An by now, possibly a Hen of any Avian Species is looking pretty good.


Yes, I am aware of the sex of my doves... and they are both male. I replied to this half-dead from lack of sleep and totally missed the "looking pretty good." zinger...lol! XD

My poor feathered guys... I'm sure they need a woman...lol!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Akiko,
Sorry to be a busybody here... but lice/mites problem!! I just had that! A couple of weeks ago, I would be awoken from bed in the middle of the night scratching my arms out, thanks to my pigeon's mites that have crawled all over my clothes, bed, everything!

And my poor little fella would be preening his lungs out... and getting really annoyed with the dandruff-looking mites.

This is what I did: I sprayed HOBO birdspray to Krik-Krik, back, tail, under, over, wings, feet, under pits, back of neck (everywhere except eyes and beak) *3 times a day* (morning, noon and before bedtime) for the next 3 weeks. I sprayed her cage, nest, perch, EVERYWHERE!

Then I sprayed *myself* each time I handled her. I sprayed my arms, clothes, bed, computer area, chair, mom's vases, loft, everywhere she's had contact with, also *3 times daily* for *the next 3 weeks.*

I finished 2 bottles of HOBO. Thankfully, that eliminated the mite problem. I don't scratch anymore, and KK's feathers have grown beautifully.

I know how you feel about mites/lices!! Good luck!!


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi Akiko,
> Sorry to be a busybody here... but lice/mites problem!! I just had that! A couple of weeks ago, I would be awoken from bed in the middle of the night scratching my arms out, thanks to my pigeon's mites that have crawled all over my clothes, bed, everything!
> 
> And my poor little fella would be preening his lungs out... and getting really annoyed with the dandruff-looking mites.
> ...


Thanks! 

I suppose I should count myself lucky.. no mites.. just the lice... but there is still that mental uuugggghhh! that comes with it. And even though I've been told that the lice on the bird doesn't like humans and that they actually feed on the feathers and not the blood... still can't stop my mind from thinking about them on me and that makes me itch all day... 

But, I know it's all in my head.. else my son would be itching too... lol.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

There are various kinds of Bird Lice...


Some only feed on Dander and or Feathers, and do not 'bite' or seek Blood or bother anyone.

Others, are regular Lice about like Body Lice people sometimes have, shaped about like a small Sesami Seed, and these do drink Blood, for which they must indeed Bite the Host.


The Hippoboscidae is a flying, Winged Louse which looks about identical to a common House Fly, and, these fly readily and well when inclined to seek new Pigeon Hosts, and do not bother anyone else usually.


Some Mites do not bother anyone, subsisting on detritis of various kinds...others do, because of Biting and drinking the Blood of the Host.


Biting Mites are definitely an unpleasant and potentially very annoying problem....usually making an itching and or histamine reaction in people.


Unlike Lice, Mites usually spend the night off of the Bird, and or only spend some time on the Bird, and spend the rest of their time on other surfaces, where, they end up crawling onto other Animals, according to whateveer is available, including people.


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## fujishima_akiko (Oct 9, 2010)

*Update.*

Well, I'm beginning to think the initial vet that said he would never fly again, either didn't know what he was talking about, or just said it on that same basis that all doctors and medical professionals say things like that... uncertainty and not wanting to get a person's hopes up for something that may never happen.

Anyway, cleaning his shelter and changing his water and food today.. "Bird" used his wings to "jump" to the top of the storage bin... when I went to reach for him, he took off.. full flight and flew in a complete circle around my living room.. nearly touching the ceiling (my ceilings are about 10 to 11 ft from the floor) before coming to land near the bin again. His landing was a little rough, but I think it's safe to say at this point, he may be able to return to nature in a month or so.

I just want to make sure he's flying strongly for longer periods of time.

It's going to be hard to release him.. because I'll definitely worry about him, since he will no longer be safe from predators like he is here...

I'll sure miss his antics too. But, will be happy that he's where he should be. 

Though, on a second thought.. it will be cold soon... maybe a good idea to release him in the Spring?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Akikio, 




If you like his company, and he seems happy, I see no harm to wait untill late Spring to release.


I often have recovering-recovered ones here for quite a few months before releasing.


That'll give you time to see how the Wing continues...hoe things with him in general continue.


If the old injury causes a Joint to 'freeze' up, with of course reduced mobility of the Wing, then you would be able to tell.


If that were to happen ( most likely it will not, but, if it did, ) it would be better of course that it happened in a kindly environ, than in the Wilds.



Phil
Las Vegas


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