# Help! My Disabled Indoor Pigeons Hatched a Chick!



## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi all,

I have no idea how this happened, but my disabled (flightless), non-releasable, indoor pigeons have hatched a chick. I thought that I had very recently replaced their eggs with false ones, but apparently at least one of the eggs had not been false all along. I am afraid to candle the other egg for fear of possibly causing the birds to abandon the hatched chick. (I afraid now even to follow my usual practice of doing my work in the bird room for fear of disturbing them). 

I have no idea what to do. Obviously, I want to do whatever is in this chick's best interests. First, I have no idea how I can give him or her the best chance of survival. I assume that if the chick is doing fine it is simply best to minimize how much time I spend in the bird-room in order to avoid disturbing them and causing them to abandon the chick. But if the chick is not doing well then I may need to intervene to help him or her. But checking in on the chick seems to require disturbing the parents. Do you know of a way to check on babies without undue risk of disturbing the parents? 

Second (although less urgent) I do not know what to do about the chick's (or possibly two chicks' - if the other one also hatches) longer term future(s), since (i) the parents are not in a position to teach the baby how to live in the wild but (ii) the chick will presumably not be physically disabled and thus might be able to live in the wild. I don't know how to teach babies how to live in the wild myself, although I've heard that some rehabbers might (but I would also worry about taking space / time from a rehabber that might otherwise go to an abandoned baby pigeon with no other chance of survival...). 

I am so deeply sorry about this. I thought that I was being careful but I obviously messed up. This baby is clearly my responsibility.

I would be most grateful for any input that anyone might have. 

Thanks very much,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would just let them raising the chick then find him a home.
I was swapping out eggs religiously for fake eggs but we have two "oops" pugeons who hatched when I wasnt careful enough. It happens to lots of us.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your going in the room to work isn't going to bother them. If that were the case, then no one could go into their loft if birds were on babies. They are not _that_ sensitive to disturbance.And you will have to check on him to see that he is being fed and doing well. Any birds hatched in your place will not know how to live wild, so you're either going to have to keep them or find them homes.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi cwebster and Jay3,

Thanks very much. Do you know (or could you point me to any resources) on how to check on the chick and how to make sure that he is being fed and doing well? I don't know anything about such things, so I'm not sure how to make sure he's feeding and what to look for in trying to determine if he is doing well. (Also, do you have a sense of how often I should check on the chick?)

From looking at some other posts I think the chick just hatched and you can't see the chick from under the parents when they are on the nest. My understanding is that this is normal. Should I life up the parents to look at the chick, or is it best only to start checking on the chick when the chick is visible beside the parents in the nest? 

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They are probably doing fine with him. They usually do. If he is being fed, he would have food in his crop. You don't normally need to check so closely as they are normally great parents. What are the parents handicap?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

My birds are used to me, as I'm sure yours are used to you. You can lift them up to see the baby's crop, but probably not necessary. Just check the crop if you like to see that he is getting fed.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay 3 and cwebster,

Thanks. The parents were both found with broken wings that did not heal in such a way as to allow them to be releasable. 

I found the father, Bird-Bird, myself in the fall of 2009 and I've had him ever since. We do not know how old he was when I found him but we think he was reasonably young (e.g. 1 year old). We thus do not know to what extent if at all he had experience parenting before he was found, although our suspicion is that it would have been limited.

The mother, Mary, was found by someone else with a broken wing in 2012. Mary's wing healed well enough to give her some flying ability, but it was not sufficient for her to be releasable. I got Mary from the rehabber in the fall of 2012 after she heard that I had a home for a female non-releasable pigeon.* The rehabber did not know Mary's exact age but guessed that she was young, e.g. a year old. So we also do not know to what extent if any she had experience parenting before she was found, although our suspicion is that it would have been limited.

In terms of checking the crop it sounds like it may be safest to do this a bit later in the process - does that seem right? It's true that Bird-Bird and Mary have always let me lift them up to change the eggs - although this does stress them and typically causes Bird-Bird to attack me, and sometimes Mary gets attacked a bit as collateral damage. I don't want to stress the baby or risk him / her getting attacked at this critical juncture, but I suppose I could try it if we think that the risks of not doing so outweigh the benefits (one relevant consideration would be how effective my intervention would be at this early stage? E.g. would support feeding increase the chance of abandonment?) 

I'm not sure what a full vs. empty crop looks or feels like on chick; I suppose that I can try to look into it - but if you have any advice on where to look that would help a lot.

Thanks so much,
Howard

*long story: I initially got Bird-Bird, let others know that I had a home for another non-releasable pigeon so Bird-Bird could have a friend, got another pigeon with a broken wing that left him flightless and non-releasable who turned out to be male [Philly], who fought with Bird-Bird, so I separated them with a baby gate. At that point the consensus on the message board and with my vet was that boys could not get along together unless they had mates, so I set about looking for non-releasable girls for them; I got Philly's mate [NuNu, who also was found with a broken wing that left her flightless and non-releasable] in the summer of 2012, shortly before getting Mary), and there seemed to be a good chance that she might be releasable. 

PS I think that I can definitely provide a forever home for the baby (or babies, if the other egg hatches) if I need to. It's just that that will potentially take space away from other pigeons who I might come across who may be non-releasable (in the last year I've been contacted about 5 injured birds: 1 was non-releasable magpie whom I adopted; 1 pigeon whom I rehabbed, was releasable, and I released; 1 magpie who was injured but successfully evaded capture (I got in touch with my friend 1.5 hours after she lost track of the bird...), and 2 pigeons who were severe strike victims who passed away. If these numbers keep up I feel that space here is at a premium. I'm trying to work with colleagues here to set up a sanctuary for disabled pigeons (and perhaps other birds like magpies), but I have no idea if or when we might be able to get that going.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Bless you for helping Bird-Bird, Mary and the other disabled pigeons!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard, you probably don't have to worry about the baby. They will most likely take very good care of him. It is probably wonderful for them to have this chance to raise a baby. If you aren't really familiar with babies or crops, probably better for you to trust that they will do fine. I think they will. Update us on how they are doing.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Two babies: One got separated; have put both in nest*

Hi,

Thanks very much for the help so far. It turns out that the second egg hatched and there are now two babies. This morning and I think afternoon all was well. But this evening one of the babies somehow got out of the nest while the other was on it - Bird-Bird was sitting on the chick in the nest and Mary was sitting in the one outside. Obviously this was horrible as that meant that neither could move without exposing a baby to the lack of parental body heat. 

The situation seemed so urgent and obvious that I acted: I moved the chick outside of the nest back nest to the sibling on the nest. It looked like they were moving back so at least one (in this case I think Mary) would incubate both chicks on the nest.

I hope that all is well now. The urgent question for the future is how can we prevent this from happening again? I am going to increase nesting materials so hopefully they can build up more of a nest rim. Also, at one of our vets' suggestion, I got a web cam that should enable me to monitor the birds 24/7 on the web no matter where I am. But it's possible that I still doubt I'll be able to monitor this so carefully as to be able to prevent the stranded-chick emergency from happening again, unless Mary and Bird-Bird can figure out how to prevent it themselves.

I would be most grateful for any input you might have.

Thanks so much,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What are they in? Is there no way to build it up or put a couple of bricks around it so they don't fall out? Don't worry. Not like they are outside in freezing temps.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Aww I can tell you obviously care very much about your birds and you shouldn't worry about them getting cold because like Jay said they aren't outside in freezing temps, also it sounds like the parents are doing a fab job. 
One thing I would say is enjoy this lovely experience and don't mar it by worrying unnecessarily, have faith in the parents and check the chicks daily to put your mind at rest - the parent birds know you and although they'll protect the babies by pecking you or wing slapping they won't hold a grudge against you or abandon their babies. They may 'bite the hand that feeds them' but you are a food source and trusted friend and they're too clever to look on you as a threat. 
The babies grow so quickly that you must enjoy every moment you can because in a few short weeks they'll look like adults, in fact the more you handle them the better they will know you and at around five days their eyes will open and they'll start to recognise you too. 
Love reading your post, please update when possible and add pics if you can.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3 and FredaH,

Thanks very much. The pigeons have their own large room in my house (with Bird-Bird and Mary's territory separated from NuNu and Philly's territory by a baby gate, so there's no way NuNu or Philly could get in and bother the babies). Because the Bird-Bird can't fly at all (and Mary can't fly much) they always build their nest on the ground. Their nest itself is constructed from Timothy Hay (from the pet store) which I give them for nesting materials. The nest they are in is enclosed on three sides by a box, a wall, and a baby gate, but open on one side (although you have to go down about two feet to get out of the corridor). I have absolutely no idea how but somehow one of the babies got past that corridor and about a foot or two into the rest of the room. He / she had hatched either that very day or the night before. Is it possible for a chick to get out of a nest on the ground on his / her first day out of the egg? Is it possible that the parents moved him / her (perhaps inadvertently, while the chick was nursing pigeon milk and was clinging to the parent while the parent was trying to move or something?).

I actually did put some Timothy Hay at the entrance to the nest's corridor to try to block the babies from getting out of there. What I was thinking about was adding some Timothy Hay to the rim of the nest itself - although I was a bit worried about doing this because of how invasive it is. When Mary is on the nest and I've gone to lift her to look at the babies she's shifted position to wing-wack me in a way that made me concerned about her stepping on the babies. But maybe it's worth a try. 

Also I noticed that there is a dropping kind of close to the nest; is it important to remove this to prevent the babies with their delicate immune systems from getting sick? Also what are the parents going to do about the babies' droppings? I think mother cats actually eat newborn kittens' feces, which helps keep the nest clean. Do pigeons do anything like that?

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard it's really hard to visualize what you are describing, but a baby could not get himself anywhere by himself. So have no idea what happened there. I would block the entrance or whatever it is you are worried about with a brick or something. 
Don't worry about the droppings, as they are going to make a mess. I wait the first week, then change out the straw with fresh every couple of days after that. Easier to keep the nest in some kind of box or something.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Checking on Feeding & Growth*

Thanks very much. I've never worried about where nests were before because we've been trying to practice (successfully, for 6 years!) egg replacement - do you think it would be safe to transfer the nest into a bowl or box now? 

Today I saw (via the webcam) Bird-Bird on the nest rhythmically bobbing, like he was regurgitating. I was concerned that something might be wrong, as my understanding was that, since the babies were being fed pigeon milk, they would be nursing somehow (evidently, I was assuming that, along with milk production, some version of mammary glands and nipples had evolved among the ancestors of pigeons). But then I saw that the milk is actually produced in the crop and regurgitated into the babies mouths (https://www.sciencealert.com/mothers-milk-best-for-growing-babies-and-that-includes-baby-pigeons).

So I suppose that one way I can confirm that some feeding is being done is by looking for regurgitation on the webcam. Apparently this only happens until they're 10 days old, after which I don't know what happens (will the parents be regurgitating seeds for the babies?). Also it's impossible to tell, at least at this stage (especially from the webcam, which I was afraid to position too close), which chicks are being fed, and my observing this depends upon a coincidence between feeding times and when I'm checking on the webcam. But it is one way to get one kind of information.

Another method one of our vets suggested is to try to make sure that enough feeding is being done is to visually inspect the babies' growth to make sure that it is on par with normal developmental expectations; she sent me this site which seems to have a good 36 day progression (http://mumtazticloft.com/BabyPigeons.asp). I can hardly believe they grow up that fast. I think that Bird-Bird and Mary's babies have reached their first developmental milestone of doubling in size after 48 hours.

Thanks again,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

You are so conscientious! Hope you are enjoying the new little ones not just worrying about them. Mary and Bird-Bird must be proud of them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sure they're doing fine if they have doubled their weight as you say. They parents will know when to start giving them seed. Try to enjoy them as cwebster has said. Relax and stop worrying. This time goes by fast, and you probably won't have the opportunity to enjoy watching babies grow up again. 
You do give your birds calcium/D3 don't you? All the pigeons need it, especially the females. But it is important to the babies. A calcium/D3 supplement contains the D3 they need to be able to absorb the calcium. Wild birds get it from the sun, but inside birds don't have that.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Hagen Prime & Calcium D3 dosage*

Hi Jay 3,

They have Hagen Prime vitamin, mineral, and amino acid supplement added to their water and they have oyster shell and red grit on which to free feed. Our vets' prescription is 1 cc per 3 oz of water. Here for the Hagen Prime is the Guaranteed Analysis per 1 c.c (per dose 0.55 g):

Vitamin A	292.6 IU
Vitamin D3	26.4 IU
Vitamin E	6.6 IU
Phylloquinone/Vitamin K1	0.22 IU
Pantothenic Acid	0.291 IU
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)	0.44 mg
Folic Acid	0.044 mg
Niacinamide	1.485 mg
Thiamine (Vitamin B1)	0.071 mg
Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6)	0.148 mg
Vitamin B12	0.951 mcg
Biotin	2.915 mcg
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)	3.685 mg
Choline	8.8 mg
Iodine	0.0055 mg
Iron	0.4455 mg
Manganese	0.6655 mg
Zinc	0.682 mg
Copper	0.0412 mg
Magnesium	5.115 mg
Chloride	5.115 mg
Sodium	5.467 mg
Calcium	22.639 mg
Methionine	29.315 mg
Lysine	41.745 mg
Amylase	17.000 units
Protease	12.800 units
Lactobacillus Acidophilus	3.85 MCFU
Streptococcus Faecium	3.85 MCFU

Do you know if that is a sufficient dose of vitamin D3 for a family with neonates? (The prescription was just for general health).

Thanks so much,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard how often do you give them the vitamins? 
A drop of cod liver oil mixed into their seed once a week wouldn't hurt. Has lots of vit. D.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay 3,

I change the water every day (and I usually put about 3 oz of water in each of their 2 bowls), so every day they have 2 new water bowls with 1 cc of the Hagen powder each day. But it's up to them how much water they drink.

Do you know if D3 powder (I have the Reptical Calcium & D3 powder) will stay on the seeds? I had tried putting it on them in the past, but it generated a lot of dust, and I was never sure how much they were actually getting. 

Thanks,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

To add things like that to see, you need to very lightly oil the seed. Many use olive oil.

Did your vet say to use the vitamins every day? Most pigeon vit. go in the water a couple of times a week.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

Thanks; just to clarify about the vitamins and water: their water is in small plastic bowls that clip onto the open doors of kennels. I change their water every day to keep it fresh (and because they do seem to like occasionally to bathe in it, which gets it dirty). The fresh water always gets the same dose: 1 cc per water dish (each of which contains 3 oz water). But obviously they don't drink all 6 oz every day! It's set up so that, however much water they do drink, it always has the same concentration of vitamins in it. 

Thanks for the input on getting powder to stick to seed. In the long term I'm just a little worried about the additional calories from oil, given that the birds aren't that active (they're on tippler seed mix rather than something higher in fat or carbs because they don't fly and thus burn fewer calories than many birds). But perhaps right now, when they're producing milk for the babies, extra calories might be good (and when they turn to regurgitating seeds for the chicks extra calories in the seeds would also help them...).

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Pictures on day 3/4*

Hi all,

Here are pictures of the babies from the evening of August 3. The first baby was observed hatched on July 31 and the second was observed hatched on August 1. 

Is it possible to tell if they look OK? These were taken from the top down, so the crops may not be that well imaged. I'll try getting some from the side next time.

Also about squeaking: they didn't squeak tonight, but it was late and I think they may have been asleep. I think that I have heard some squeaking over the web-cam (it is one-way sound enabled) but I haven't been paying that close attention to this - I should presumably start. 

Thanks very much,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

They are darling and should turn out just fine!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Stop worrying about them. They are probably fine. You shouldn't be bothering them at night, as it will upset the parents. Just relax and enjoy them.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Aww they are beautiful and look just fine. Clever mum and dad for creating such little loves. When I first ever saw a baby pigeon I thought how ugly they were, lol but now I look at them and see beauty in every feather because I know how lovely they are. 
I think you should sit back and enjoy watching them grow now cos the parents are doing a fab job.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Is is Usual for Parents to Not be on Nest 24/7 at 7/8 days?*

Hi there,

I saw this morning that neither of the parents were on the babies, and they were squeaking. Usually Mary (hen) is on at night and Bird-Bird (boy) is on during the day. Bird-Bird does seem easily distracted from nest duty; he leaves the nest every time I walk into the room. He seemed to be interacting with the other male on the other side of the baby-gate (just cooing and posturing, they can't get to or even see each other that well through it.

But Mary also looked a bit ruffled. Her beak was wet so I assume she's been feeding them recently. When I picked her up she felt pretty light-weight (but I didn't actually weigh her).

Is it usual for the parents not to be on the babies 24/7 at this point, as they seem to have been in the past? The chicks hatched around July 31 and August 1, making them about 8 and 7 days old.

I'd greatly appreciate the input. I'm supposed to leave for a trip tomorrow and have someone else care for the birds once a day. But if Mary is sick and the babies aren't being cared for I don't know what to do...

Thanks very much,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not really much you can do at this point, if you have to leave. I wouldn't want to leave little ones this young, but some things can't be helped. If they have been taking good care of them, hopefully things will go smoothly. Are they keeping them with full crops? You don't know that Mary is ill. How long are they leaving them for?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks, Jay3. The crops were pretty full. It was about 10 minutes from when I saw the babies unattended to when Bird-Bird returned to them. But he's left them again now. I'll try to determine when he returns (again, I'm doing this non-invasively, by observing on the web cam). 

For what it's worth someone at our emergency vet said it wasn't unusual for the babies to be left on their own fro longer periods of time. 

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well they aren't going to freeze during the summer. They are probably fine.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Chick Off Center of Nest (Moved Back), Warning Signs of Splay Leg?*

Hi all,

While the chicks have been nesting together without incident for the past week (since day 2, when one was several feet off of the nest), this morning I noticed that one of the chicks was a few inches out of the centre of the nest. The night before I had tried to change some of the nesting materials as they were looking pretty bad after 9 days (also it was the last chance I'd have until I get back from a trip I have to take; I have, however, arranged for bird-sitting for the pigeons by a pigeon rescuer with more experience than myself). I wonder if I didn't replace enough of the material to keep the chicks sufficiently centered. So I moved the chick back into the center of the nest and built up the nesting materials (Timothy hay) around it. I've been monitoring with the webcam and so far everything seems to be OK in terms of the chicks' positions and parental care (as with yesterday, Mary [mother] is staying on the nest for much of the day, Bird-Bird [father] seems to come, feed the babies, and go). 

Also the chick who had not been centered on the nest had one of his/her legs sticking out the way they looked when they were about 2/3/4 days old (they're 8/9 days old today). I had heard about splay leg possibly being caused by improper nest surfaces including them being slippery. The bottom of our nest was just plastic runner - I think it has some grips, but especially with droppings I was concerned it could get slippery. So, in addition to the nesting materials around the side I added some additional Timothy hay under the babies. When the chick was re-centered on the nest his/her leg looked pretty normal, like the other chick's and like the mumtazticloft example of healthy 8/9 day old chicks (http://mumtazticloft.com/BabyPigeons.asp). But do you think there could be a risk of splay leg? Do you have any advice on what to look for here (which I can pass onto the bird sitter)?

Thanks so much,
Howard

Other updates: a vet at our clinic did some research about nutritional needs for baby pigeons, and confirmed that, in her view given the supplements (oyster shell and Hagen Prime) "The diet you are feeding has enough Vitamin A,D and calcium, this diet should be enough for them."

An experienced rehaber recommended to me that I get the babies a Uva/b light. The best I've been able to get so far in terms of Uva/b lights is the GE Refresh (LED) Energetic Daylight (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60W-E...ED-Light-Bulb-2-Pack-LED10DADL9-HT2/207000645). I've got three of these in two lamps relatively close to the nest, on timers that come on automatically at dawn and shut off automatically at night.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard Nye said:


> Hi all,
> 
> While the chicks have been nesting together without incident for the past week (since day 2, when one was several feet off of the nest), this morning I noticed that one of the chicks was a few inches out of the centre of the nest. The night before I had tried to change some of the nesting materials as they were looking pretty bad after 9 days (also it was the last chance I'd have until I get back from a trip I have to take; I have, however, arranged for bird-sitting for the pigeons by a pigeon rescuer with more experience than myself). I wonder if I didn't replace enough of the material to keep the chicks sufficiently centered. So I moved the chick back into the center of the nest and built up the nesting materials (Timothy hay) around it. I've been monitoring with the webcam and so far everything seems to be OK in terms of the chicks' positions and parental care (as with yesterday, Mary [mother] is staying on the nest for much of the day, Bird-Bird [father] seems to come, feed the babies, and go).
> 
> ...


How long are you going to be gone?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

5 days; the bird sitter will be visiting daily.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Just make sure they have a lot of nesting material under them, and the parents get calcium/D3 for strong bones. They will probably be fine. When are you leaving?


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

I bet you don't want to leave them really but I reckon they'll be fine if you do what Jay has suggested. Not easy being a pigeon grandparent is it, lol. Try to stop worrying and enjoy your trip - they change daily so you'll be pleasantly surprised when you return.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Horrible News: Mary Has Passed Away*

Hi all,

I just left for the trip yesterday afternoon. When the bird sitter arrived today she found Mary dead. 

I knew that Mary had been ruffled and felt a bit light but I had no idea she was in such bad shape. 

I am returning home now. The bird sitter and my vet have determined that, while Bird-Bird can do some of the feeding, the babies do need around-the-clock help, which the bird sitter (especially in conjunction with Bird-Bird's efforts) can't do at my place. The older chick's crop was full of seeds, but the younger one's crop was empty. The bird sitter is going to show me how to crop feed with Kaytee when I get home tonight. Also while my other pigeons, Philly and Nunu, looked fine yesterday, the bird sitter thought that they looked a bit puffed up today, and I've gotten them all emergency appointments with our vet tomorrow (we were thinking that it is possible that Mary might have had some sort of transmissible underlying condition - my vet is doing an autopsy tomorrow which should help determine whether that was true). Finally Bird-Bird and I are very close, and I think it will help him a lot for me to be there for him after losing his mate, not only for physical help with the babies but for emotional support as well.

I'll update after I have more information on the chicks needs, the autopsy, how Philly and Nunu are and what the vet thinks at the exam. But any input or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh Howard, I'm so sorry. That is so horrible. And the timing just makes it worse. I feel badly for her mate also. The poor thing. Will be waiting to hear what the vet says. I would be more worried for her mate and babies, as they didn't share feed or water with the other birds I don't think. Do you know how old she was?
Have a safe trip back.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks, Jay3. Mary didn't share much food or water with Philly and Nunu, but she did have some flying ability and did occasionally fly over into their territory (and a few times in the past I did see her earing their food) so I can't rule it out entirely.

I'm home now and Philly and Nunu are looking well - as well as Bird-Bird and the babies. The experienced rehabber who was bird sitting for me told me that it's likely that if Mary had something communicable the babies would have been in bad shape. But just to be on the safe side I removed and rebuilt the old nest in case the droppings might be dangerous. They seem to be using the new one just fine.

The rehabber also showed me how to crop feed the babies, how to determine their feeding status by palpating their crops, and when to check on them (since they were fed and then one had an empty crop after about 6 hours I'm planning to check on and likely feed them every 6 hours). We're all going to the vet tomorrow so I'll likely get some more information about feeding and such then.

Thanks again,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am so very sorry to hear about Mary.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

That may be too much feeding if the male is feeding them also. I would just check the crops to see if they had been fed, and if they looked like they needed a feeding, then I would feed them. The male is usually the one who takes over the feeding toward the end, and the hen would be on a new nest. If he will keep feeding them, let him. Easy enough to tell if they are being fed just by looking at their crops.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

Yes, definitely. I just checked them at Noon and both had pretty full crops, so I did no feeding. I'll confirm with the vet today but I think that what the "every 6 hours" rule should in our case mean that I check their crops every 6 hours, and feed if they're empty (and not if they're full). Does that sound right? I could check more often if it would be advisable...

Thanks,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's much better for them if the male does the feeding, for both the babies and the Dad. If you were to take over the feeding, you would need to separate them, as the Dad will keep trying to feed them. That's no good. If you separate them, you will break the family ties. You don't want to do that. If the crops are full then you can wait the 6 hours and then check again. But please don't feed unless you have to. Don't take that away from the male. He has lost enough.
It would be different if he were to give up on them himself.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

Definitely; I'll only feed if I have to and I absolutely will not separate them to take over the feeding. 

In terms of family ties is it usual for the babies to go off on their own after they are weaned? Because the view of the rescue community here seems to be that after weaning oops babies should be rehabbed and released. We have spots booked with a rehabber's semi releasable flock for the babies after they are weaned to go to learn to fly, take care of themselves, and eventually be released with other releasable pigeons. Would you advise against this?

Thanks,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh...............well that makes it a different story. If you can bring them together with other releasable pigeons, then they will have a much better chance of survival. All depends on the situation. Usually a pair of oops babies would be by themselves, and releasing them wouldn't fare well for them. The parents and flock teaches them what they need to know about living in the wild. How to find food and water. How to avoid predators, etc. These are things that babies hatched in captivity do not have the chance to learn. If then released, their chance of survival is very low. Pigeons need to be part of a flock to survive, and they have much to learn. If the same oops babies are put in with other pigeons, particularly with adults that are being rehabbed, that already know the ropes, and they can form their own flock, their chances of survival go up. Hopefully this smaller flock will be able to join up with a larger one. Safety in numbers, and more safety if flocked with birds who have already been feral and therefore know where to go for food and water and how to avoid predators. If the group were just youngsters who had never learned anything, then they would have the numbers on their side, but no learned knowledge of how to survive. I would talk to the rehabber and learn what they had in mind for the release. How do they learn. Do they leave it open for them to return for food and water, and shelter if they need until they learn and become independent? If you feel that it is a good release, then by all means go ahead with it. If possible, they should be able to live the life they were born to live. Just not released into a world they know nothing about.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Bird-Bird's Watery Droppings - Could it be a Bacterial Infection?*

Hi all,

Bird-Bird has been having watery droppings at least since the babies were about 10 days old. His weight also decreased a lot when he was feeding the babies (his normal weight is 370g and he got down to 304g) - but I have been supplementing his feeding with Kaytee and his weight has come back up (now to 345g). He otherwise seems to be his usual perky self.

Mary's autopsy results came back (see attached), and they suspect that she had a bacterial infection.

My vet suspected that the watery droppings have been the result of Bird-Bird having to drink a lot to feed the babies. But I was wondering, especially in light of the autopsy results from Mary, whether Bird-Bird's watery droppings (and perhaps even some of his weight loss) could be due to a bacterial infection that he could have gotten from Mary. The babies' droppings have, however, been completely normal, and they seem to be in excellent health.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Howard


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, am very sad still for your loss of Mary. Sounds like it was a bacterial infection. Having had a couple of birds and other critters autopsied, it is always hard. But I know you did everything you could. Sometimes we just cant save older creatures. Am worrying myself because I am losing a 19 year old frog. The other frog sits with him and puts his chin touching him. How are Bird-Bird and the youngsters doing? Would love to see photos of them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If he acts off at all then I would treat him for bacterial. The babies will be weaned soon won't they?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*Revisiting the Idea of Releasing the Babies*

Hi all,

As I mentioned there is someone in town here who regularly rehabs babies, including oops babies, for release. She first integrates them into her flock that includes other adults being rehabbed for release (she does a lot of this), from whom the babies can learn. The relesables are then released as a group into a flock close to her that contains other birds she's rehabbed and released. 

It seems to me like a good setup, and I have been assuming for a long time that the babies would go to this rehabber for "pigeon boarding school" and then be released. But lately I've been having second thoughts about releasing them. My main reason for wanting to release the babies is my need to be open to taking as many non-releasable birds in the future as possible. But lately I've been noticing how, given their flying ability, the babies seem to do a lot of hanging out in places here at home that the other birds can't reach. I've thus been wondering whether they would not be an impediment to taking on more non-releasable birds in the future, and whether this should thus change my decision about releasing them. (As far as the babies themselves are concerned, my sense is that the life expectancy of pigeons in the wild is about half that of indoor pigeons. So for the same reasons that I don't let my cats outside, and wouldn't even if they wouldn't hunt, I'm inclined not to want to release the babies). 

What I am having a difficult time understanding is the extent to which keeping the babies would interfere with my ability to take on other non-releasable birds. I know that some non-releasable birds retain at least some flying ability (like Mary - or indeed the three that someone I know was trying recently to place who had full flying ability, but in two cases were too tame and in one had a disabled beak). I also know that if I had to sub-divide the ground-based territories further, making higher up places more accessible to birds without any flying ability (or with heavily impaired flying ability), keeping the babies might make this more difficult. 

Moreover, my experience seems to be that the more people know that I help injured birds and adopt non-releasables, the more requests I get. In the last year I've been contacted about 6 injured birds: 1 was a non-releasable magpie whom I adopted; 2 were pigeons whom we (in one case me, in another my vet) rehabbed, were releasable, and I released; 1 was a magpie who was injured but successfully evaded capture (I got in touch with my friend 1.5 hours after she lost track of the bird...), and 2 were pigeons who were severe strike victims and passed away. If these numbers keep up I feel that there is eventually going to be a premium on space here. Similarly, the rescuer who does the "boarding school" service has limited space for permanent residents, even though she can generously help with temporary residents (like potentially my babies). I assume that if she didn't release releasable birds, she would have run out of space that could have gone to non-releasable birds. 

So even though the babies seem out of the way of the other birds, there seem to be reasons to suspect that at some point keeping them could end up taking spots from non-releasable birds. But I am not sure.

I was thus wondering if anyone has a sense of the extent to which keeping the fully flight-capable babies would interfere with my ability to take on non-releasable birds in the future. I take it that one part of this is whether, even if they are perching up higher, they do somehow make it harder to keep more birds who cannot fly on the ground. But another might be the extent to which it is common for there to be non-releasable birds with some flying ability or full flying ability, who would seem more quickly to come into direct conflict with the babies for space.

Thanks very much,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Howard, I think you are blessed to have someone who can do that for you. If that is the way she always releases, they sure do have a better chance of survival. The life span of a feral pigeon is lots shorter than half of a pet pigeon. But I feel that quality of life is more important than length of life. So I guess you need to think about that. 
As far as taking up room that may be needed for rescues, sure they do. They add up, and whether they can fly or not, crowded is crowded. If I had that option, and if she really does release them in groups like that, and introduces them into a flock so that they are accepted and really have a chance at having a free life, then I would really consider that option.


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

*The Babies Weights (Is Primus Under Weight?)*

Hi all, 

Sorry, one other thing. I thought that Primus was looking a little thin (although I don't know what's usual for 43 day old pigeons), so I weighed the babies. Primus is 288g and Secundus is 316g. They are both lighter than they were when they were about 20 days old, when I think Secundus was about 340g and Primus was close to that (maybe 320g).

I don't know if this is normal for them to lose weight when they get all of their feathers, develop their flying ability, begin flying around, and (I think) get weaned (it's difficult for me to be sure but I don't think that I've seen Bird-Bird feeding them recently). I also don't know if there's a concern about Primus's weight in particular; he definitely does seem quite a bit thinner than Secundus. I also thought that I heard Primus sneeze a few times (and, although this is probably nothing, some of the feathers on one of his wings looked a bit ruffled - but I seem unable to get a picture of that now). 

I'd be most grateful for any input you might have about whether I should be concerned here (especially about Primus).

Thanks very much,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When they wean and start to eat on their own, their weight will go down a little as they adjust and begin eating enough. You need to watch them and feel the crops to make sure they are actually eating enough. They would need to be eating well and flying very well before even thinking about release. Are they drinking on their own?


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## Howard Nye (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Jay3,

I've certainly seen them drinking on their own and I see them eating on their own quite a bit (they're doing it just now). I think that they are basically weaned - I haven't seen Bird-Bird feed them in awhile. They're also flying very well - so much so that it's extremely difficult for me to catch them to do anything like feel their crops (although I can try my best).

Thanks again,
Howard


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you can see that they are eating enough, then you don't have to catch them to feel the crops. That's wonderful then. They are doing well. Good job!


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Howard, great job! Love their names.


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