# Pigeon with wobbly head, very weak. Please help!



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi everyone

I got a pigeon from below my flat just now. He was noticed to be walking in circles(but I didn't see). I could easily catch him. He seems to be a young adult.

Right now, all I can notice is he is very weak, he is unable to stand properly. He is too scared to walk, so I haven't noticed any circling. He has his head turned a bit backward and it wobbles as he tries to look around. 
No poops yet. I looked into his mouth and saw a small black something, but it was just piece of rubbish stuck on the roof of the mouth, which I removed. No signs of canker.
Right now, I have kept him inside a bucket padded with towels. It is raining heavily here, so it is a bit cold outside.
He looks at me with the head wobbling and his head turning backwards as in case of pmv, but am not sure whether it could be because he is just weak.
He is also too light when I hold him.

Any suggestions, on what it could be? I am planning to feed him a few peas and see.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

PMV, vitamin B deficiency, undernourishment, head trauma .... probably need a good pic or pics of him. See how he is once warm and rehydrated and left for a little while.

When you say head bobbing, do you mean he has a nervous tremor of his head or he is bobbing it up and down?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks JohnD for replying. I mean the head is wobbling as though he doesn't have the strength to keep it straight. It is not a tremor.
Right now, I have this photo. I will try to take a video of the wobbling.
And another thing I noticed is - his crop area seems to be jutting out, and is hard to touch. Two hours now since he came, no poops.
Could it be slow crop? Though I have heard of this term before, I have no idea how it looks like.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Also, I gave around 15ml of rehydrating fluid. How much more should I give? When can I start giving solid food?

While giving the water with a dropper, he struggled a little. He also looked around, the head still wobbling. I have a doubt he is perhaps emaciated, and might have worsened in the storm.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*The answers are here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I have gone through this link before, and I have put 15 ml of rehydration fluid into him, and another 15 ml will go now before I go to bed.
I am hoping tomorrow he will be perkier, and I can try to feed him something.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Here is the video of the head wobbling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZyU-yklxVo&feature=youtu.be


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

*And another thing I noticed is - his crop area seems to be jutting out, and is hard to touch.*

Either he has something in his throat or he hasn't eaten in a long time.
I think you should start hand feed him defrosted peas. It's been a few hrs already. I don't thing has anything to do with nervous system ( my opinion). I a fews days or 1 week he should recover. Handfeed, vitamins in the water or sprinkle over the defrosted peas..see how he poops.

Thank you for caring for this one too.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Dhanya,
Thank you for caring for this little feral. Could it be that he had some kind of trauma or internal injury? The poor thing.

Keep giving him the rehydrating solution, and feed him (not too much though!). I hope the experts will be back with more advice!

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Dima and Sassypants. He managed to jump out of the bucket today, and is now looking about. 
From the looks of it, I fear something neurological going on. Please see this video of him on the floor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0GTE8Jtd4&feature=youtu.be

It could also be due to weakness. I started giving food only today. I made the Kaytee Exact you gave me into a runny consistency, and fed using a dropper. The poops are still missing, there is just some white matter with lot of water coming out. 

There is a white deposit beneath his tongue, but nowhere else in his mouth. The white deposit can be seen underneath the tongue along the sides. Could it be canker?

Right now, I gave him a vitamin B supplement, and metronidazole. I plan to gradually increase the food.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

The bird , we have name him Rickyricky, is still weak and rests all the time. Even as I give him food, he doses off in between.
He has started to drink on his own, and is quite thirsty. Poops are water mainly.
I think there could be an infection, because the poops are really smelly. I searched a lot over here on PT, and from the symptoms, I suspect paratyphoid.
I am going to give him cipro, which I found is the alternative for Baytril for paratyphoid. 
Will keep you all updated.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I would start him right away on Metronidazole also. Smelly poops and white stuff under the tongue; he may have internal Canker.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the update. The meds now are metronidazole and cipro at the same time?

Make sure the dosage is right and no calcium at this point. Good luck! Keep us all posted.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes, I'm giving metronidazole and cipro. I saw in one of the posts, how to crush a 500 mg cipro tablet, and make a suspension with honey. I have made a 50mg/ml suspension, and am giving him 2 drops of it twice a day. 
He is incredibly light. He is drinking water with great gusto, and urinating at the same time. I guess it is good - because all the bacteria gets flushed out. I am offering him water every 2-3 hours.
He is less shaky as compared to the day we got him. And less scared of us. He has a serious face, and my daughter addresses him as 'sir' 
I saw that in his poop, some of the peas I had fed him has come out undigested. So I am back to feeding him just baby food. I am placing the dropper deep into his mouth and squeezing the plunger, so that the food doesn't get into his wind pipe.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

That is good news. Hope he makes a fast recovery!

Cute that your daughter is calling him 'Sir'! So creative! Keep us posted ok?

Keep it up!


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

Looks like PMV or paratyphoid,if its not recovering with Enrofloxacin (baytril/Meriquin)......then 99 % it would be PMV.Make sure,you dont bring it near your other birds and make it a point to wash your hands,before you feed or touch other birds.It can spread to your other pigeons in not time.
If its PMV there is nothing much you can do about it ,other than hand feeding for the next 2-3 months and Multivitamins,as it will invariably take around 3-4 months for the birds to recover from PMV and feed on itself,till then hand feeding is the only option or else the bird may starve to death.It depends on the severity of the disease.Lets hope for the best


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Boney for the advice. I am keeping the birds isolated, but I'm very worried about the spread of disease. Mine is a small flat, and there is one pigeon with pox too.

Today I almost thought I lost my Ricky. Usually I don't take very weak animals/birds to the hospital, because in my experience, I have lost some of them because of the stress of hospital procedures, like painful injections and undue stress caused by inexperienced handling. Today I felt he is 'fit enough' to be taken to hospital. Also, I had a doubt Cipro was not suiting him because he vomited soon after I gave it yesterday.
Anyway, at the hospital, they diagnosed it as Salmonellosis based on symptoms. They gave him an antibiotic injection on the chest, which caused him some stress but he was ok. Later they tried to get a drop of blood from under his wings so they could smear on to a slide for testing. This procedure stressed him so much, he lost consciousness and was breathing awkwardly with his mouth open! I was on the verge of tears, but the doctors assured me that he would be alright soon, and it was characteristic of birds to get stressed rapidly. 

Two hours after, he is sitting on my lap and looking at me as if nothing happened! 

I have to go to the hospital for two more days for the injection. I will hopefully get the blood results tomorrow, so I can know for sure whether it is PMV or salmonellosis.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I wish the best for the new rescue. 
Thank you for caring so much. 

I could feel your emotions at the vet place, in your story.


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## boneyrajan.k (Jul 15, 2010)

kunju said:


> Thanks Boney for the advice. I am keeping the birds isolated, but I'm very worried about the spread of disease. Mine is a small flat, and there is one pigeon with pox too.


Do u know the name of the Doc ?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Actually they were student doctors. I did not see the main doctors around. But they were good. I didn't believe them when they said the pigeon will be fine, but they were right.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Dima for your kind words.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't know how to make sense of this, hopefully someone here can help me out. The doctors took a blood sample yesterday. Today, they (another set of new doctors in the shift) said that the report is 'negative'. When I asked them what that means, they gave conflicting information. One said that there is no bacterial infection, the other said there is no blood parasites.
When I searched everywhere on the net, I found that salmonellosis is usually tested on the fecal sample, not the blood sample. So what does this 'negative' report mean?

I have a post PMV bird, and I have seen the kind of neck twisting and walking in circles characteristic of PMV..but I feel this is something different. Because

Number 1: He does not try to peck at seeds and miss, or twist his neck uncontrollably. It is more as if he is not having enough strength on his neck to support his head. 
Number 2: He is emaciated and incredibly light. Is this a symptom characteristic of only paratyphoid and not usually PMV?
Number 3: He is not startled by loud noises. 

And lastly, he is slightly responding to antibiotic treatment/nutrition or both. 

I personally feel things are pointing more towards paratyphoid. Rather than PMV. What do you guys think?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I don't have experience with PMV.....thank God. But a PMV bird could become emaciated if he couldn't eat because of the disease. If he responds to having better nutrition, and to the antibiotics, then I would say that it isn't PMV. Could be something else. Only time will tell. Please do keep us updated. I'm sure someone with more experience with this will answer your questions better than I can.
Are you sure you are giving the right amount of antibiotic for his size?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jay3. Yes I also wish it is not PMV, because I already have a pigeon with permanent effects of the disease, and his life quality is really compromised. 

Today I luckily got a nice student doctor at the hospital who was knowledgeable. She told me that they were giving Amikacin (antibiotic) injection as treatment for possible paratyphoid based on symptoms. She also told me it is not possible to do tests for paratyphoid in the hospital here, so we have to go by the symptoms.
So Ricky has got the third shot of Amikacin today, and the doctor says that will be enough. Meanwhile I should continue the B-complex supplements and Metronidazole.

His condition has improved slightly. He is taking more food, and in general, looks better. The neurological symptoms are not better however. As you said, only time will tell. Let's hope for the best.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

You are a sweet person, Dhanya. Thank you for caring for these ferals and doing so much for them.

I'm pleasantly surprised that there are hospitals in India that care for these pigeons! Wow! I wish there was one in Singapore (I should think there is one known avian specialist but thankfully, I've no need to see him)

Do keep us updated on Ricky's progress. I hope Rudy and Ruku are both doing well! Take care!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Sassypants for your kind words. My Rudy and the baby are doing well. The baby is extremely attached. He even tries to hop into the bed with us at night. I keep him out of the bedroom, and he 'knocks' at the door for sometime with his beak. We feel sorry for him, but we don't want to be covered with poop in the morning . His lost feathers are starting to grow, is filled with pin feathers now. I guess your supplements are doing their job! 
Will keep you all updated! Thank you very much.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update. Ricky is slowly gaining strength every day. I have gradually weaned him from baby food to soaked pellets. He makes a rotating motion with his crop while feeding the pellets, which is quite scary. But he hasn't thrown up yet, and likes the pellets too, so I am giving it 3 times daily.
His poops are a bit frothy (?). His excessive thirst has disappeared, and now he drinks less, but the poops are not solid yet. 
His neurological symptoms are quite the same. His head goes backwards involuntarily, and some circling is there. He loses balance very quickly, and rolls.
Does the neurological symptoms take time to recover, in paratyphoid?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kunju said:


> An update. Ricky is slowly gaining strength every day. I have gradually weaned him from baby food to soaked pellets. He makes a rotating motion with his crop while feeding the pellets, which is quite scary. But he hasn't thrown up yet, and likes the pellets too, so I am giving it 3 times daily.
> His poops are a bit frothy (?). His excessive thirst has disappeared, and now he drinks less, but the poops are not solid yet.
> His neurological symptoms are quite the same. His head goes backwards involuntarily, and some circling is there. He loses balance very quickly, and rolls.
> Does the neurological symptoms take time to recover, in paratyphoid?


*The neurological issues may go away with time, but some birds never are completely healed of them. Some birds will seem fine and upon stress will re-exhibit the symptoms. Keep him on extra and B vitamins and calcium for nerve function. If the poops are frothy I would give the bird extra probiotics for good gut bacteria and enzymes for digestive health.*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Skyeking. Yes I have probiotics, I will give that. 
So, whether it is paratyphoid or PMV, the neurological symptoms may or may not go away completely, right? That's really sad news. Anyway, lets hope for the best.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Did you treat with antibiotics? If so, any neurological damage may be healed, unless there was blunt trauma and/or PMV involved also. Long term care for this bird is the best option to see the outcome, of whether he/she heals completely or not.*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes he was treated for 3 days with Amikacin, at the hospital. The injections were given on the chest. After that, I have been continuing metronidazole and Vit-B supplements.

No way of knowing whether it is blunt trauma, or maybe possibly heavy metal poisoning. But he had a bad odor for the first few days, so I feel there was some infection for sure.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi everyone
An update on Ricky. Its been a month now since I got him. I had taken him to hospital where he got Amikacin injections for 3 days. I had also treated him with metronidazole. Finding no improvement in his neurological condition, I treated him with baytril for 10 days.

Presently, his neurological condition has improved greatly. Earlier he couldn't even stand on my lap without losing balance. But today, his head wobble is just slightly there sometimes, and his balance is much better. He still loses balance if he tries to fly, and thrashes around and flips over. 
When I got him, he could not keep any solid food down. I had started him on liquid baby food, and then gradually weaned him to solids. 
He cannot digest green peas. If I give him peas, he regurgitates them one by one, until all are out.
I am giving him soaked pellets now. Halfway through each feeding, he begins making these rotating motions with his crop. If I slightly over- feed, he regurgitates it back immediately.
So, he is just having minimal food, and I cannot give more, because of this habit of regurgitating. He was incredibly light when I got him, but now it is better, I mean I can know it when I pick him up that he has put on good weight.

Apart from this regurgitating, another issue I find with him is that he is not improving mentally. Its been a month but he is still in that sick phase. He sits in just one place, perched on the wooden bar I have placed for him. He doesn't attempt to move or look around the room. When I feed him, he has that fixed stare at me. After feeding, I talk with him, and he keeps staring. If I place him in a more interesting place inside the house, he stays put. He doesn't look around, he isn't interested in looking at the other pigeons. All he does is to stare at me. 
In my experience, I have found that sick birds want to sit by themselves in a quiet corner. But once the worst of the disease is over, they get interested in the world around them. This hasn't happened yet for him. Could this be because of his issues with digestion? Or could it be old age?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Ohh,

Thank for for taking such good care of him....it could take months if it's something neurological. Don't forget the vitamins.

Doesn't he at least preen / clean his feathers? This is the first sign of improving IMO.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When he was throwing up the green peas, were they raw, cooked, or frozen and defrosted?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Are the poops still foamy/frothy ?

I am unfamiliar with Amikacin...it isn't an antibiotic name which typically comes up.....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't see him preening. But recently, I saw him exercising his wings for the first time. 

I give him defrosted peas. He brings it back immediately, in the same form I give him. He can keep the pellets down better, but I cannot give much in a feeding.
The poops are not frothy anymore. They are squishy yellow, I think it is because he is having only pellets??


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

You've been such a diligent nurse, thank you so much for that.

Ricky may be unlucky in health but he's lucky in that he's met you. If he is far too gone, at least he's safe and the most comfortable he possibly can be.

I hope and pray for his speedy recovery!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Ricky has a new problem. Today I noticed he was standing tilted towards one side. When I caught him, he managed to struggle free, but after a lot of thrashing around (his balance issues are still there), I noticed that he wasn't keeping one foot fully down. The toes of that foot were kind of curled or limp rather, and though he could apply weight on it to walk back to his resting place, he puts the leg up whenever possible. It is the same leg, the right one, that he puts up.
There are no injuries or swelling visible. The leg looks as good as the good one, except for the way in which the toes are held, lifeless and curled.
Ricky rarely walks any distance from his resting spot. The only way his leg could have been injured is by banging against something while thrashing around. When I catch him for feeding, sometimes he manages to escape from me, and thrashes around, banging against the wall.
Another thing is - Ricky always stands as though stooping forward, and about to sit (ever since I got him).

Could paratyphoid, for which has received treatment already, have any effect on legs?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

That is also what Krik does too. Her legs are fine, but she regularly stands on one leg, and brings the other up, curls her toe and let them limp. Then after a minute, changes the other leg and repeat.

She does that after a long sit on the egg. Maybe it's to re-circulate the blood? But I know for sure, Krikky's legs are ok, she walks, hops and runs as usual with no discomfort or pain. 

Does Ricky look like he's in pain?

I always thought that gesture was a 'resting mode' because sometimes, when she's not laying eggs, she sleeps in that posture too!

I hope Ricky is ok. Keep us updated.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

No, Ricky does not interchange the legs. When I hold him to stand on my hands, I can sense that he is not putting pressure on the bad leg. He is not spreading the fingers like the good leg. 
When he stands and walks, he keeps his legs bent sort of, as if about to sit. I don't see him standing erect.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't know... hopefully the experts come along. I wish I could help! 

Does he still throw up the peas? Poor dear. Must be something wrong with his diegstive system to keep rejecting food


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you for replying, Sassypants. Yes, his digestive system is still slow. He eats just enough to stay alive. The rest he throws up. I am getting the feeling it is old age. He in content sitting in one corner of the room all the time. No matter what I do to make him interested in moving about, he stays put. I am thinking I need to introduce him to the baby Ruku, who is as naughty as a pup. Maybe she can turn him around.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Aww... if they get along, it would be nice to have a family photo of all four of them. Rudy, Ruku, Ricky and Ranjo. They are adorable.

I hope Ricky pulls through, it may be slow but I hope the recovery is steady.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Today, in an attempt to get Ricky interested in life, I kept him in the living room where all the action is. It was so frustrating to see him lose balance all the time. He would tumble about and his wings and tail would get bent in the rolling. The worst part is, he cannot stop the tumbling by himself, I need to steady him each time he loses balance. 
I almost thought I had enough of this and would have him euthanized. I cursed myself for rescuing him and prolonging his agony. But then I thought of Rudy, who after two years of coming out of PMV, managed to FLY today. 
Exhausted, I bought Ricky back to his room, and all the thrashing about stopped. I think this is why he never left the room. Too much excitement is not good for his nerves. He wants the same corner of the same room, the same routine in the day, and the same people to meet everyday. Today, I finally understood what he wants.
I am kind of feeling really low today, because an orphaned kitten I was caring for died in the morning. I spent the whole day cursing God for giving me lives which I cannot save. To top it all, Ricky's thrashing about really put me on the edge. I am sorry for the rant, but I really hate this disease PMV. When pigeons do the circling and neck twisting, it breaks my heart. Each time a rescue comes in, I wish in my mind - please God, not PMV. But here I am, with two pigeons possibly with PMV/paratyphoid, and the nervous symptoms. They are such innocent creatures, their suffering seems very unfair. I just feel horrible


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I am so sorry you have to go through this. 
2 years with a PMV pigeon?!!!! OMG, that's lots of dedication. Now i know why God sends to you these ones. 
You have good heart and lots of patience. You were blessed with it by God and put it into work through the needy pigeons.

I am so sorry for the kitten.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Dima. I think I was just feeling so despondent yesterday, to lose hope like that. Today I am back to feeling hopeful .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

We win some, and unfortunately, lose some. Try not to focus on the ones you lose, but on the ones you help. Saving one means little to the world, but it means the world to that one animal. Try to remember that.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Dhanya, you are a beautiful person. You have done so much for these needy animals. In their little hearts, I know they are grateful for your help even if they couldn't live long enough to show it.

You have provided love, care and hope for these animals who would have otherwise perished a long time ago. They thrive in your care and you've given them a good life - even if they are sick - most importantly, they are comfortable and LOVED.

Thank you for all that you do!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you all for your kind words. I am really feeling better today, now that I see things in perspective. Each time a death occurs, I go into this dark hole for sometime. Seeing death brings us face to face with the harsh reality, of what really matters in life. 

I got reminded of this poem, my favorite actually, thought I would post it, for all of us here:
If I can stop one heart from breaking
I shall not live in vain
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain
Or help one fainting robin unto his nest again..
I shall not live in vain.- Emily Dickinson


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Ultimately, this is all we can do. For some reason the world does not have enough people such as yourself.

I also truly believe that once a human helps an animal friend, in some way 'the word gets out' and other animals somehow find their way into the path of that human again.

For all of the heartache it causes, I think ultimately there is some sort of reason for it all. I am betting most of us here have had teh exact same feelings you describe; times of despair, questioning "what was the point of all of that ?"

Perhaps it will never be explained to us here, in this existence, but for sure ...by doing what you can...by stepping in on the behalf of your animal friends....you are doing something positive; helping where most people would not even bother. In the very, very least you give the animal a safe and loving place to pass.....and sometimes, we can give them much more.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Regarding Ricky:

If he throws up the peas, but is eating pellets, then stop the peas.

As far as pellets, for an adult Pigeon they do not need much in a day...maybe 3 tablespoons will do. They are just loaded with nutrition.
You can also probably start mixing in some seed with the pellets. Not much to begin with, maybe 10%. Then over a week or two work it up to maybe a 33% seed to 66% pellet ratio. See how he takes/digests that.

Great that the froth has stopped in the poops. Yes, oftentimes if the pellets have color in them then the poop will also show that color.

I would say, despite your last description, he is slowly doing better....I mean at the start of this thread we had no idea as to whether he would even be alive after a few days.

I would agree with you, regarding your interpretation of his actions. The new room was probably overwhelming & he felt, instinctively, he needed to somehow navigate somewhere...which his condition does not yet allow him to do.

If he is comfortable and stable in the place you have been keeping him, leave him there. Perhaps give him a small mirror ? Sometimes they like that.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jaye! Yes, when I look at Ricky's graph, there is improvement however slow. I will try adding the seeds gradually and see how it goes.
I guess he must be having just that (or even less)- 3 tablespoons of pellets. I am not giving him peas.
I will keep him in this room itself till I find improvement in his neurological problems. 
I am planning to give him something better than a mirror, a companion. It has been 3 weeks since Ranjo came (the one with clipped wings ). I am planning to put him in Ricky's room. Both birds are of the peaceful, passive nature, so I am hoping there won't be fighting!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

The thrashing continues, though I am keeping him as quiet and undisturbed as possible. I place him carefully on the ground so that he can feel his two legs fully and balance himself before I let go. After a while, somehow he loses balance and starts rolling on the floor. One wing has a spot of blood underneath, I think a blood feather was broken during the rolling. His one eyelid also is scratched, probably by his own nails while rolling. Now I have picked him up from another episode of rolling, and he is sleeping held against my chest, exhausted.

I feel apart from stress, the unequal strength of both legs could also be contributing, When I try to stand him on my palm, he is able to push downward only with his left leg. The right leg is weak. In appearance, there is nothing abnormal about the right leg.

I can't leave the house for more than a few hours, because I am afraid he might get himself into awkward positions with his rolling. He cannot correct his position himself.

Does anyone have any good suggestions to improve his balance?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I discovered that he does well inside a small plastic basket I use for vet visits. The basket is so small he can hardly turn around. I lined it with towels and kept him inside. There is no rolling when he is inside it.
I thought it must be the towels which are giving him enough grip. He doesn't lose balance if placed on my lap too. But when I kept him on top of towels in the open, he began to lose balance.
So right now, it is either my lap or the basket. I gave him bath with warm water with epsom salt in it. I massaged his right leg thoroughly. I am planning to repeat the massage everyday and see.
I still haven't been able to see what exactly happens for him to lose balance while standing and start thrashing around. All I know is when he is stressed, his neck twisting starts which makes him oblivious to what is up and down and left and right. The wing is showing more injury today, another spot of blood. But he is able to move the wing normally.
I am having some dumb ideas, like perhaps I could tape his wings so he does not hurt them. But I don't know if taping or clipping the wings will have any effect on the thrashing. Or perhaps it would be a better idea to keep him in the basket for a few days, and see how it goes?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Just a quick review, because people keep asking the same question regarding meds, etc:

He has had a course of Metronidazole (7 days at least ?), 10 days of Baytril, and 3 Akomicin injections over a period of 3 consecutive days.

he has had a bloodtest which showed no parasites and no bacterial infection (was there an increase in white blood cell counts ? )
He has been with you for over 1 month now.

His balance and neurological impairment improved significantly (your post #32, June 28) so he could stand and walk, but never fly without thrashing. Also his head tics continue. His ability to digest food has also improved to the point where he can keep pellets down and digest, but only in small feedings.

Now, the past few days, his neurological abilities are seeming to go downhill again. He is still eating, minimally to maintain IMHO (glad you are using pellets), but he is rolling and having more episodes, and is not standing as strongly as he was before.

Is all of that correct ?

I can think of 2 things:

1) the neurological issues may be permanent, or at least will never be fully recoverable.

2) the antibiotics he has been given helped but did not address an infection which still is present; or if he was better a week ago closer to when the meds were given, and is now declining, perhaps the meds were not given long enough ? (the baffling thing about this is that the blood test would usually show indicators of a bacterial infection).

3) if there is still something present which can be treated or shed, perhaps it is not bacterial but fungal, or viral but not necessarily PMV. 

Here is what you should do, IMHO:

1) confine him to a padded/cushioned carrier or box, relatively small so he does NOT have the opportunity to thrash around and hit himself on hard surfaces.


kunju said:


> I discovered that he does well inside a small plastic basket I use for vet visits. The basket is so small he can hardly turn around. I lined it with towels and kept him inside. There is no rolling when he is inside it.
> So right now, it is either my lap or the basket.perhaps it would be a better idea to keep him in the basket for a few days, and see how it goes?


YES, for now. This way, you can go out and get your life things done without concern that he will seriously injure himself while you are gone.

2) go back to the hospital and get a fecal test....they are usually inexpensive and fast to get results. If you can afford it, also get a cloacal/oral culture. Discuss with the student doctors his latest symptoms.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Jaye
I am sorry I should have given a recap myself.
Yes all of what you said is correct - I treated him with Baytril for 10 days, and with metronidazole too for 10 days. His neurological symptoms are better than when I got him. But this thrashing is something new. Earlier he used to stand by himself, but if stressed, as when I go to pick him up, he used to thrash around in an attempt to flee. But now, he will be standing normally when I look, then after a few minutes I hear the thrashing sounds. When I go pick him up, he continues to rotate his head uncontrollably. 

I don't know what triggered him to go downhill like this. Perhaps he is attempting to fly or do something, or his weaker leg is making him lose balance to that side. I really don't know, but I am planning to sit and watch him tomorrow, and find out what triggers the rolling. Could it be fits?
About the two possibilities which you gave: His poops are fine now, not the runny smelly poops he had initially.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

He may well be having seizures.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh , I m sorry Jaye, I forgot to read to read the green part of your post, the one with the suggestions. I guess I am too disturbed to be able to focus properly. 
1) Yes I am doing the same thing, putting him in the basket when I cannot attend him, so he can remain safe, and I can get things done! It is difficult to have someone in your care who needs your attention 24 x 7.
2) Regarding the vet visit, I don't know if they will do it. Here, if we act smart and ask too many questions to the doctor, and suggest them treatments or tests, they are bound to feel indignant. The situation is the same for human doctors as well. No questions asked, only blind faith works here! Anyway, I will see if I can do something.
3) Today when I am watching closely, he certainly has a tendency to lean towards his right. When he accidentally topples over, he is unable to upright himself, hence the thrashing. This is my latest theory, but it might change during the day as I am not going to leave him out of sight today. I found that the sofa also provides him some grip, so I have placed him there today.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Jay3 for the reply. I guess it cannot be seizures, because I had put him in the basket the latter half of yesterday, through the night, and there was no problem. Anyway, I am observing him today, and if there is a seizure I will be able to see it.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Then maybe as you think, it's just that he can't get back up, and therefore thrashes around trying to right himself. Poor thing.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I observed him the entire morning, and he lost balance and thrashed around twice - once while he was preening himself by turning his head backwards and preening under the wing, and the second time while he was exercising his wings. So I think it is the leg problem contributing to the loss of balance. 
When I looked at the bad leg, I noticed that the joint is a bit yellow and lumpy. The difference is very small, but it is there. Could this be due to paratyphoid?

I am hoping the epsom baths and massage would make a difference.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Dhanya,
The poor bird. I think keeping him in a carrier is a good idea. At least he will feel secure and won't be able to roll uncontrollably. 

Seems like he has permanent damage. At least you are giving him a safe and comfortable home, even if we are unable to treat the symptoms. I can see you are trying your best and it's so heartening.

Keep us updated on his condition. Hugs.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I took him to the vet today, to rule out possible physical problems with the leg, like fracture.
The vet said his leg is fine. What he suggests is:
1. Another round of treatment with baytril.
2. Vitamin supplements for healing the leg.
I had mentioned that I have already treated with baytril for 10 days. I have also given him vitamin/mineral supplements after he came. But perhaps there are some vitamins I missed. 
I don't want to keep him in the carrier throughout, because this is no life for him. Jaye, I saw that you had mentioned in some post(which I cannot find now) about BOOTS for the pigeon. Can you tell me something about the boots? Will they help Ricky?
The leg is not dead, I hope it regains its utility.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kunju said:


> I took him to the vet today, to rule out possible physical problems with the leg, like fracture.
> The vet said his leg is fine. What he suggests is:
> 1. Another round of treatment with baytril.
> 2.*** Vitamin supplements for healing the leg.*
> ...






Skyeking said:


> *** Keep him on extra and B vitamins and calcium, D3 for nerve function. If the poops are frothy I would give the bird extra probiotics for good gut bacteria and enzymes for digestive health.*


*These nutrients are extremely important for bones and nerves, as mentioned earlier. A multi vitamin will not have enough for healing. *


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Skyeking. Vitamin B. D3 and calcium - I will see for these. I am giving the probiotic once a week.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The probiotics won't help much as long as he is on Baytril. Baytril kills both good and bad bacteria, so it just kills the probiotics.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on Ricky. I am starting today another round of enrofloxacin. I am giving him additional calcium and D3 (pieces from the human supplement I am taking), and a Vitamin B supplement. The dosage for calcium I am deciding based on a comparison of our sizes.
His life is quite different now. I feel he has lost a lot of confidence. He gets upset with each thrashing, and likes to lie on my lap on his right side (side with weaker leg) and get his head massaged. By the way, thrashing hardly occurs now, because he is either on my lap while I work at the computer, or in an open basket in whichever room I am in. I have bought a soft basket (all cloth-lined) so in case of thrashing, he is not hurt. His legs are exercised everyday, and epsom baths too are given. There hasn't been any noticeable improvement yet.
He is a very intelligent boy, he nibbles at my hand and shows he wants water, by imitating the drinking action. He is eating and pooping as before.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Dhanya,
Correct me if I'm wrong... but I think it's best not to give calcium or grit during antibiotic treatment. If you are giving enrofloxacin, please withhold all of the above including probiotics. Once the treatment has finished, you can resume the probiotics and calcium.

I think they counter-effect the medication?? Hopefully the experts will be around shortly to advice more on this.

Good luck with Ricky! I hope he improves no matter what.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for pointing that out! Now I do remember the same being mentioned earlier. I haven't yet started the antibiotic, I was thinking it over since he has a fragile digestive system, so I don't want the antibiotics to upset it more. I don't know, I guess I will give the supplements and look for improvement this week, otherwise I will start him on antibiotics again on Monday.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

probiotics don't interfere with the antibiotic, they just won't do any good either. Probiotics for a few days after the treatment should be done.
Calcium, on the other hand binds to the drug, and as was mentioned by Miss-Sassypants, makes it less effective.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kunju said:


> Thanks Skyeking. Vitamin B. D3 and calcium - I will see for these. I am giving the probiotic once a week.


*1/4th of a human serving is how I give vitamins/minerals.

As mentioned be sure not to give it to them after giving antibiotics, give a serving the furthest away from last dose and next dose. I myself would not give any antibiotics anymore, just give the bird some time to get his natural immune system to kick in. I would add allicidin (a natural antibiotic )to his supplements.*


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Skyeking. Yes I was also feeling the same thing. I need to boost his natural immune system. I haven't come across Allicidin, I googled just now and found it is a component of garlic. I have garlic capsules with me. Can I give them?
I understood about the calcium binding with the antibiotic.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kunju said:


> Thanks Skyeking. Yes I was also feeling the same thing. I need to boost his natural immune system. I haven't come across Allicidin, I googled just now and found it is a component of garlic. I have garlic capsules with me. Can I give them?
> I understood about the calcium binding with the antibiotic.


Yes, you can use it-just be sure there are no other hidden ingredients in it. I have used garlic at one time. I found the allicidin to be far more affective.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on Ricky. I found today that his right wing is also kind of stiff. When I expand the wing, it shivers. The left wing is fine. I think the problem is not just with the right leg, but perhaps his entire right side. I am massaging the right wing too now, along with the leg.


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