# Introductions: How do I know when to put them together?



## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

I acquired my white hen a couple of days ago, and put her in the cage with my male, with a barrier between them. At first it was a solid plastic barrier, but since things seem to be going well I swapped the plastic for a metal barrier. 

Since then they've been spending most of their time next to each other. The male now tries to climb up the metal barrier by flapping his wings. The female seems to like to watch this display, and a couple of times she has joined him by marching up and down her ledge at the same time, flapping her wings until she just leaves the ground. She will also sit touching the barrier with him on the other side, preening herself extravagantly. I looked her over for parasites in case they could be the real cause of all the preening, I didn't find any sign of them. They both sleep next to each other, through the bars. 

So I'm wondering when it would be a good time to remove the barriers? I can easily put them back if needed, they just slide in between the cage bars. I would supervise them closely after the barriers are removed. What behaviour or body language should I be looking for as signs they are getting along - or not?

Here are pics of them in their typical position:


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Would give them brief supervised visits and see how they get along but wouldnt rush it. Would also put some twigs or straw or hay in because when i introduced Blue to Fiona, she was more accepting of him after he picked up twigs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

She should actually have been quarantined for a few weeks before putting her near him, just to be sure that she isn't carrying anything he could catch. A few weeks gives you time to watch for illness. Some have had their whole lofts made sick by introducing a new bird who looked healthy at first, but turned out to be sick. I did mention this in your other thread when you got the first 2 birds.

But after that period, and after doing what you have done, when they both seem interested, then I would let them both out in the room, rather than into the same cage. See how they act, and they will eventually go into his cage together. I don't normally put one or the other into the other birds cage. They view that as their territory, and it will sometimes cause them to fight.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

As Jay3 mentioned, a quarantine is essential. We have always quarantined new birds for 30 days. It kept our existing birds from getting circovirus from a squeaker we adopted. It is essential to quarantine and do vet checks before introducing birds.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It's a little late for them to be quarantined as they have been next to each other for a few days. But at least they aren't sharing food and water yet, so she could be moved away in another cage. Should actually be in different rooms.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Unfortunately things haven't gone as planned from the start. My original plan was to buy one bird and keep it as a pet. Due to circumstances and yes, mistakes on my part, I now have to house three birds, and in separate rooms and cages. 

When I split up the male birds because they were fighting, I had a smaller spare dog crate to house one of them. I didn't have any more space in the living room to put the second cage, so I put it in the bedroom. I could swap the male in the bedroom with the hen, and put the solid plastic partition back into the big cage with the other male. However, they will still be able to see each other which means they will probably try to fight each other through the partition. 

I've ordered another large dog crate which can be stacked on top of the first one, but that won't arrive until later this week/early next week. In the meantime I guess I will put the two males in the split cage in the living room, and move the hen into the smaller cage in the bedroom. I will have to clean out and disinfect all cages in the process, so I'll do it tomorrow.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

It is a good idea to keep an extra cage or crate on hand. You may be able to find them cheaply in local papers or craigslist. Hope your birds are settled soon. We started with one bird and now have six. Please get fake eggs if you arent going to have a large loft!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

A small cage would have been fine for a few weeks. She doesn't need a full dog crate. It's just better to have the time to watch them to make sure they are healthy. Worm them if they need it. If you end up putting the other male in the other side of the cage, they don't have to see each other. You can tape paper or cardboard to the plastic. You have been kind of rushing things. Slow down and wait till you have everything in place. It'll be much easier if you do. The eggs are important as cwebster has said.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

1. I already had a spare cage, which is now occupied by the male bird which I didn't know was male when I bought him. I always keep spare cages or the materials to build one when possible. And as I mentioned earlier, I do have another full sized dog crate on order. The purpose of the second dog crate is in case I can't find a buyer for my "spare" male, he can't be kept in half a crate or a small crate forever since Jacobins are relatively large birds. 
2. I do plan to buy fake eggs, but since it will be several weeks before the hen is in contact with a male, it's not a top priority at the moment. When I go to the local pigeon feed store within the next week, I'll see if they have them. If not, I found some on Amazon. 
3. The spare cage/crate *is* smaller, its a medium sized wire dog crate as opposed to the large size.
4. I found a large piece of cardboard this morning, I will use that as the barrier between the two males
5. Re rushing things - I was under the impression that pigeons are social animals and require the company of their own kind. When I bought my males I was told it would be a bad idea to buy just one of them because a lone bird could stop eating or become ill. I expected that they'd keep each other company, instead they turned out to be both male and started fighting. I had to separate them, and am trying to sell one of them. In the meantime, I was concerned again that the one I'm keeping would be lonely, so I bought a hen for him, and was planning to buy a hen for the second one *IF* I still can't find a buyer for him after several weeks. Apparently I was wrong, or I misinterpreted the information I found or was given. Now what's done is done, so I have to care for these birds as well as I can. 
5. Re worming, I did the males with Ivermectin a week ago. I plan to worm them again in a week. I can worm the hen as well. I also have external parasite spray on order. It should arrive in about a week (give or take with the holidays). It can be used on cages as well.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

CooCooBird, am sorry it has been so hard. It is initially hard with pigeons because you cant rely on the gender peopke tell you when you get them. Thats how we ended up with six instead of just four ("Blue is a female" when Blue was a male).Yes pigeons are very social but they engage in a lot of drama. They have to like their mate...just like us. They bicker and have dominance postures...hopefully not like us too often. Once you have your pair or pairs set up, and getting along, it should be a lot more fun. They are a little more trouble initially than parakeets but much more rewarding down the line. Sounds like you are trying very hard to take good care of them. Hope things get easier soon. I am jealous if your jacobins and white hen. They are really beautiful. Please take things slow and enjoy the bumps along the way. I have learned that with pigeons, they are picky but it is worth it.


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## Ladygrey (Dec 10, 2016)

Any young bird is hard to determine what sex they are, guessing is better when they mature, but a DNA can take care of that.

I'm so glad I don't have birds in the house any longer, they are messy. But hats off to anyone willing to. 

I think it is a good sign the new bird and your male are sitting close. Let's hope all is well with the new bird, keep your eye on the droppings. 
But just a heads up if the hen is laying age and she starts nesting at some point they can have very loose stools before and during egg laying, and then large volume loose stool when incubating fake eggs, they expel when they take a break from incubation which is usually mid morning to afternoon when the male is supposed to do his turn. So be prepaird, and it smells pretty bad too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Your bird wouldn't be happy being alone forever, but it could have waited. Could have waited till you hopefully sold the other male even. I doubt that the place you get your feed will have the eggs. You could order them now.

Yes, I agree, they are very messy in the house. They molt, throw their seed...............
I hate it when I have to have them inside for a while.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

All I can say is I hope I don't come back as a female pigeon in an after life. The males are so aggressive to their females. Chasing and pecking them, pulling at their wings. It may be natural behaviour but if my boys get too bad they go into the pet carrier while the girls come out for a fly, if I put them back in their cages they just go bananas to get out but the pet carrier only has a wired door which faces the wall until the little bullies calm down. I really hate that part of their character and when I put the girls away I let bully beefy out WITH GIDEON, no way will the two 'hubbies' take him on and when they go back in with wifey they behave themselves. I just won't have them treat my girls like that. 
So even paired males can be little so and so's.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

FredaH,am also glad not to be a girl bird,although Blue and now Fiona Jr (ok, he needs anew name) have really mellowed out now that they are secure in their "marriage" to Fiona and Buzzy, respectively. Hopefully once each of CooCooBirds males have a female and everyone gets to know one another, peace will reign. I did have to "time out" Fiona Jr a few times for being such a bully at first.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Ladygrey,youare right about the hormonal female poop. It is horrific sometimes.  Another reason im glad im not a female pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

FredaH said:


> All I can say is I hope I don't come back as a female pigeon in an after life. The males are so aggressive to their females. Chasing and pecking them, pulling at their wings. It may be natural behaviour but if my boys get too bad they go into the pet carrier while the girls come out for a fly, if I put them back in their cages they just go bananas to get out but the pet carrier only has a wired door which faces the wall until the little bullies calm down. I really hate that part of their character and when I put the girls away I let bully beefy out WITH GIDEON, no way will the two 'hubbies' take him on and when they go back in with wifey they behave themselves. I just won't have them treat my girls like that.
> So even paired males can be little so and so's.


The males will usually calm down some after a while. But some will always be that way. On the days that I set up the bath in the aviary, there is always some stupid male who won't even let his poor mate out to bathe. I tell him that it is his time of day to be on the nest and lock him in. Sometimes the dumb hen will just fly up to the perch outside the box and sit with him. I like the other ones. The ones that look around to be sure he is well confined, and then run outside to join the others in the bath. If one of the males is acting like that and really going overboard, I put him in time out to cool his jets. Never boring around here. 

I do however have some females who won't take any bull from the male. And the male knows it. We also have males who are always gentlemen. Those are the ones I like.


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Gabe and Gully have just realised their plastic eggs aren't going to hatch and abandoned them and he's gone all violent again. After his time out in the carrier and then with Gideon I put him back with Gully and she was all over him like a rash. I've a lot to learn about pigeon behaviour, so much more complicated than dogs, lol.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Jay3 said:


> Your bird wouldn't be happy being alone forever, but it could have waited. Could have waited till you hopefully sold the other male even. I doubt that the place you get your feed will have the eggs. You could order them now.


I have to say that when asking for advice on anything, "woulda coulda shoulda" are my LEAST favourite words. 

I mentioned on this board several days ago, that I was thinking of buying a hen to keep my male company, BEFORE I went out and bought one. I mentioned that my reasoning for getting a hen was that I was worried about the male being alone and pining away for another bird, and that I was concerned that it would be cruel to keep him alone. Was I told not to get a hen? No, the verbatim response was: "He would be much happier with a mate than without.
When you do get one, don't put her into his cage. They need to get used to each other from separate cages that are beside each other." 

Was I told I didn't need to get a hen right away? Was I told it wouldn't be cruel for the male to be alone for a few weeks? NOPE. So guess what - I went ahead and bought a hen. Now I'm being lambasted for it?

And remember the quote above about the separate cages next to each other? I replied to that, stating I don't have separate cages but that I'd be building a barrier in the cage instead. Was I told this wouldn't be sufficient for quarantine? Well, I woulda coulda shoulda been told, but - not a word about quarantine. Now the birds are exposed to each other. I'm being slammed for keeping the birds in the same room, much less the same cage, because the hen needs to be quarantined in a separate room for weeks. Once again, I wasn't told this BEFORE I brought the hen home. Now I'm being told that I have to uproot three birds that are just starting to get used to their new homes, and swap them around between cages so the two males are in the same cage again and the hen can sit by herself in a tiny cage, to be quarantined from a bird she's already been exposed to for several days. I'm being told that I have to split the hen from the male, when they're starting to get along, and cooing back and forth at each other. 

Yet, I was told, when I was about to buy a different hen, that if she's bonded to another male it would be cruel for me to split them up, so I gave up the hen that I wanted (not that I don't like the one I have) because she was paired. Now I'm being told to split this hen that I have from the male she's getting used to... 

The problem with "woulda coulda shoulda" (also known as second-guessing) is that it denigrates people for doing, or not doing, something that's now in the past and beyond their control - unless I take the hen back to the breeder, I guess. That's not acceptable to me. Hindsight is always 20/20 - but it doesn't help anything, it's just insulting and patronizing.

Please understand that I do appreciate the helpful advice - but second guessing and finding fault with everything I do is very frustrating, confusing and makes me feel like I can't do anything right.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Am sorry you are feeling criticized. We have all done a lot of the same things as you and are trying to spare you some of the frustration and heartache we have experienced. I know i have learned slowly since i joined this board and have made every possible mistake, in others eyes. Please dont let anything people say here detract from the fun you should be having now that you have three really great birds. I would give a body part to have such beautiful birds.  
I am sorry you are feeling upset by what people here say. I am sorry if i have offended you by any comments. i know i just want to spare you any heartache. We didnt quarantine our birds at first. If we hadnt learned to do so, they would all be dead now from circovirus. I grumbled when people here told me to quarantine any new birds but i learned from their experience. Things will be ok. Take the parts of what people say to heart that seem to fit but dont feel you have to follow everything because you will get a lot of advice that may be contradictory or not fit. Its all learn as you go with living things which is part of the fun i think.
Your cages and arrangements will work out. Things dont have to be perfect. Part of the fun with pigeons is learning their communication and social patterns and weird quirks. Just enjoy the positive aspects of your new birds. They will get along soon. I have spent hours introducing birds to other birds and wanting to strangle them due to their dramas and bickering but they work it out. So please enjoy your birds. i hope you will get back to the joy and excitement that led you to get them originally. You arent doing anything wrong.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

CooCooBird said:


> I have to say that when asking for advice on anything, "woulda coulda shoulda" are my LEAST favourite words.
> 
> I thought I had mentioned earlier that any new bird should be quarantined
> so as to give you time to watch it and make sure it is healthy. But you had said that they came together. If I didn't then I'm sorry that I didn't mention that. I should have, but can't think of everything. This thread isn't the only thing I have in my day.
> ...


.............................................................


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Don't feel like that because we all live and learn by our mistakes and you have probably not even made one. The little lady looks healthy enough and personally I wouldn't change anything now anyway because what's done is done and by adding more stress to two birds who've just been re homed and have found comfort in each other could stress them out all the more and actually create ill health. Just keep an eye on them, their droppings and their general behaviour and you'll be one step ahead of any changes. Chances are they'll be just fine and seem to already be bonding, which is ideal.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Hoping to hear that things are going well with the bonding, CooCooBird! Between the birds and between you and the birds. You have such lovely birds. Agree with FredaH, just let things be, you are not making mistakes. I would be so excited to have such fantastic birds. Enjoy. Happy holidays!


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

Sorry to disappear. I slipped on a patch of ice a couple of days ago and did something to my hip, so I've been on painkillers with my leg propped up for the past couple of days. 

I had time to read everyone's posts. I think there have been a lot of misunderstandings on both sides. When you know a lot about something or have been involved in an interest for a long time, it's easy to make assumptions based on your own experience. Like assuming a newer person knows something ("common sense") when they don't. I've done this before. On my end, it's easy to misinterpret or misunderstand information you find or read. Everyone makes mistakes.

Re the pigeons bonding and the need for them to be paired, all I knew at the time was that they're social creatures who mate or bond for life. That's why I thought it was urgent to find a hen for the male. He had always been with the other male and other pigeons, and I was afraid he might starve himself or get sick. The other male is still alone and not eating as much as he normally would, he's moping and facing into the same corner all the time. If I had understood that they could be alone for weeks with no harm, I wouldn't have rushed to buy a hen. But what's done is done, and I really like this beautiful hen with her white feather "leggings". And to think I turned down other white pigeons because I thought white was "boring"! 

So far I have not moved the birds around since my fall. The hen and one male are still in the same cage with the barrier between them. At the moment they are sitting face to face on either side of the barrier. They've begun cooing in unison every so often, as well as cooing separately, especially the male. I was on the phone today and the person on the other end could hear him grunt-cooing away and didn't know what to make of it! Both appear in good health for the time being, and are eating well. The hen has started doing a lot of wing flapping and lifting herself above the shelf, so I'll have to let her out for a fly. 

The other male is still in his small cage in the bedroom. He's moping as I mentioned, but I go in many times during the day and talk to him. He has always been more attentive to my speech than the other one, he peers back at me and cocks his head from side to side. I can't help but feel some attachment to him. I've had no takers to buy him, but this isn't the greatest time of year to sell anything. I will wait a few more weeks and then decide what to do from there. I'm still waiting for the dog crate I ordered (thank you holidays); I'd like to get him into it so that he'll have more room. I'll admit I won't be all that upset if nobody wants to buy him! I may try letting him fly around the bedroom tomorrow if he will come out of his cage.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear you hurt your hip. Hope you are all better soon. Sounds like the birds are doing well! The holidays really slowed down things but i hope your dog crate arrives soon. Did you ever get a chance to order fake eggs? It sounds like you will need them if your pair keeps on getting friendlier with each other. Happy new year to you and your new lovely birds.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Sorry to hear you hurt your hip. Hope you are all better soon. Sounds like the birds are doing well! The holidays really slowed down things but i hope your dog crate arrives soon. Did you ever get a chance to order fake eggs? It sounds like you will need them if your pair keeps on getting friendlier with each other. Happy new year to you and your new lovely birds.


Thanks!

I guess quarantine is now out of the question, because early this morning I found the male and hen with faces pressed together on either side of the partition. They were "billing" (I think that's the word) and she was preening his neck ruff. It was cute to watch. 

Re the eggs, I was going to order them from Amazon but since they're cheap they're an "add on item" so I can't order them on their own. Amazon (.ca) doesn't have much selection for pigeon products. Orders from the US take weeks to get here, I'm still waiting for an order of wormer and supplements that I ordered 2 weeks ago. I know of a pigeon supply store in my area that sells feed, grit etc., I will call them to see if they carry fake eggs.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

I got some from amazon and also some from ebay. There are plastic and wood ones. The sizes vary.i got some plastic and some wood in case they dont believe they are "real."


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

*Dumb egg question*

I forgot to ask, do female pigeons lay eggs without mating? I know some birds do, like chickens and my button quail. 

If they have to mate first, how long after mating do they lay? 

So far I haven't allowed my hen and male to have full contact.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes, females lay without mating. Our girls Lucy and Tracy are constantly producing nonfertile eggs. Not sure how long after mating pigeons produce an egg. They remind me of bonobos. They are driven to make more pigeons and are great parents.


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## CooCooBird (Dec 1, 2016)

cwebster said:


> Yes, females lay without mating. Our girls Lucy and Tracy are constantly producing nonfertile eggs. Not sure how long after mating pigeons produce an egg. They remind me of bonobos. They are driven to make more pigeons and are great parents.


Thanks! I've been checking around her cage, including in her nest basket. So far no eggs. I use the non fertile eggs from my button quail as eggfood for all of the birds, I just boil them when I have enough and mix them in with chopped greens, shell included. I guess I could add "dud" pigeon eggs to the mix when they arrive.


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