# Linebreeding/Inbreeding



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Now, one of you said to talk to someone here that "knows" about this stuff. Well as far as I know, they all do the same thing we do. Breed birds and race birds year in and year out. I don't think any one we fly with has a real "family" or "foundation pair" of birds. You all seem to know some of the ins and outs of this so you can be my mentor!!!  (If you don't mind that is). Now here's the question. We have two pairs of birds. One pair are Jan Aarden, and the other pair we're not sure. The hen (Angel) is a Van Loon and the cock is a stray that trapped into our loft in 2000 and the owner never contacted us. We've bred out of this pair for 3 years and have gotten at least one good bird out of 4 raised every year. Last year we got two good racers. The Jan Aardens have produced for us also. So, if I wanted to "build" a family around these two pairs of birds, where would I start? So far, we've only bred from them and raced their youngsters. None of their children are in our breeding loft. I obviously know that we would need to stock some of their off spring, but then what? There's no one to mate them to unless you go back and put them with Dad and Mom. As far as the hen that is apparently throwing some "bad genes", well, call me a sucker or whatever, but I've had her since she was a squeaker and when mated to her original mate, gives us good birds. She won't be going anywhere. The only reason we have a Son and Daughter from them in the breeding loft is because they were the first youngsters we raised and they flew around the loft when we lived in Michigan and had we raced there, they would have raced, but my husband retired early and we moved and brought them with us to Virginia, so they became prisoners. Both are my babies, very tame and so they won't be leaving here either. They can be used as pumpers but I just can't get rid of them. Since I know where the problem is now, as long as the original pair produce good racers and their kids are pumpers, the problem is solved. I hope you guys are ready for all the questions that will probably come your way. I'm willing to listen and learn from the ones that have been doing this way longer than I have.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Building a family of birds . Like I said is starting with what you can best get. . Then keep a good record of there young. The better birds you build off. Ok this is on racing birds as of now. As we know alot of the top families of racing pigeons are in belgium, holland and such. Why. most there started long ago with a set of birds. built off them competed with stiff competion. And selected there best stock birds to carry a line forwad. Now you say you have 2 pair as foundation birds to start with. From different back grounds on racing . jan arden, vanloon and ? So you would say take the arden cack cross it to the vanloon hen . The arden hen to the unkown cock. Raise say 3 rounds train and test the young birds in the races. The birds should be in the clock or steadly cosistant. Go thru young bird season and at least one old bird season. You should have started with say 12 young birds baring problems. Chart on races , speeds. weather. and how many birds in the race. Look at say one bird had a win on a 3 hundred mile race. aginst say 400 birds. tail wind race. the other had a win on a 500 aginst 375 birds slight cross wind clear sky. then went on to be second on a 300 and third back on a 500. that was a tail wind race. Ok the bird performs better on a little harder race. but not bad on a easy race either. But the first bird did ok thru all the races. Not the big winner but very much in the clock. ITS the better bird to breed from. stock it. The thing with racers. I think the should fly 3 seasons befor deciding on stack birds. But you have to build what you can. Another thing ytou can hold races and just train out for 2 years. Then stock the fitted birds. Less fun but a choice. Back to building. having only 2 pair to start with the family will be tight in a few short years. I would try and get at least 5 pair of unrelated or 5 pair of known birds start from there. As you build longer without out crossing. Any way you have the 2 pair will have arden hen on unknown cock. arden cock on van loon hen. then young on young out of arden vanloon. then areden unkown. three pair now. not related. Put arden cock on arden hen and same on other. Now 4 pair starting to relate. You have half brothers and sisters. You have the first young that cross back say hen out of van loon to unkown cock. hen out of unkown cock to arden cock. cock out of vanloon to arden hen and cock out of arden cock to vanloon hen.now you will have cousins aunts uncles brothers sisters half brothers sisters. To work with. plus grandfathers and grandmothers. Of which bird or birds raised the best flyers for you. Start to build back on that family. Aunts to nephews uncles to niece so on so on. Recoprds are a must. You are building are strong race team of birds IN hope. Each part of any country racing is set for the birds that perform well ther. Then when moved to other regions. Birds are built for that weather region from the same foundation. Now a good racer agin must have out going looks to breed by also. Good back cover. good wing. tight tail strong back which is wide enough at the tail cushion to give control. an alert eye. strong feather. which means thick quill hard feather. a balanced bird that size equals what it has. a long bird of decent size should have a body that meets the size/. a small bird the same. There is just to many answers to needs I will let some one else carry this topic foward too. Hope I made a little sence.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Robert I undestand your posts better than I do my own LOL Been thinking about this all day. First off I don't breed racers and I was thinking about the effects of "tight" inbreeding and its affects on race birds. For one it generally brings the size down. Good for birmingham rollers but Racers ? Another is vigor can be affected, again to a point not bad for Birmingham Rollers, but racers ? Now I know that battle crosses for hybred vigor are used in about every performance bird and animal out there. From game cocks to race horses. Ok now my birds, these birds were chosen for a couple of reasons, one was because they had the goods and another was for the ability to inbreed without falling apart. Robert mentioned Pre Potent birds and building a house around them, I mentioned circling the wagons around them,this is what families are built on. The prepotent birds are what we want to make more of, these are the birds giving us the highest percentage of good birds. By stacking the genes on these our "hope" is to make more of these and to hopfully yank something out of the genepool that moves our families forward even further. Without having the capability to inbreed and linebreed there is no family,no lines nothing, just a hodge podge of this and that and much hit and miss breedings with many variables. But still these are just pigeons and there is much under the surface that we can't see, we work out breeding game plans. Some work and some don't, when they don't we just back up and head another direction.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When a family starts getting tight another family within the loft can be used or a good out cross to bring back vigor. Size. fertile cocks for longer periods. Isa inbreeding problem. But that is years down the road. And for racers. I would think new genepool of the same need would be brought into it. 15 pair of birds can go 30 years without much set backs. And even longer. 5 pair of birds can go easy ten twenty years when done right. with not much set back. Alot of homers in the states have been bred tight to try and get the key bird. But the key would be starting right. and building from there. every bird breeds birds that wont make the cut. cream floats to the top. That is where we go tro improve. Some people make the mistake on racers at just seeing a pedigree. It looks good but is the bird good. that is the answer. race results can only tell. The people in hong kong have the right idea. The bird must to be a winner have won several good races not just one. They pay the big bucks for that bird. And often then not thru the pedigree you see a key bird several steps in it. Its a little easyer for show type. and performers. As you can see the results at an earlyer time. Racers I still think it takes 3 years to test there breeding. But the reward is building a family that lasts. Not buying and buying to get a win for a short time.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm digesting all of this.  I guess that what ever we do will have to be done next year (2006) as we've got all of our breeders on nests for 2005. I guess one problem I have (I probably have more than one when it comes to pigeons  ) is the fact that we have about 4 pairs of birds that we can count on to give us consistent young, and when you can get club winners and combine winners out of the same pair 3 years in a row, it's hard for me to break that pair up. What if their youngsters don't do any good? I know, you have to take that chance I guess. As a matter of fact, for instance, Roosevelt and Bonnie produced two siblings in 2001 that took 1st and 2nd place in YB's in the same race. We split them up for the next two years and you know what happened. That's why I always tell my husband "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". He's suggested splitting some pairs and trying different mating but I wouldn't go for it. I guess I"ll have to break out of my little mold and try something different.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

I would say that if you have four pairs that you can count on than you are in pretty good shape. Without switching your pairs around though you won't know who your true producers are. A truelly prepotent bird will produce good birds when bred to even to a crow (ok maybe exagerated a bit  ) pre potent birds will breed on bout anything. That is why they are called pre potent. You'll see the mention of line's . This family carries basicly three lines. These are just different branches of the off of the same tree, this is where fresh blood is pulled from without going outside of the family. The tighter gene pools will also give you a more consistant package as far as type,size,feather ect. Again I don't breed racers and what we breed for are different but the princples are the same.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Looking at things different. At first you stated you had just 2 pair of breeders. Good that you have more then that. The key would be to spread the four winning pairs out to put strengh in the program. If these birds are your best producers. Then build around them to have a stronger base. Without spiting the pairs you wont know the key bird. Yes matings hit well on certion birds. But to advance. Find out if the cock is the key or the hen. GOOD hens are a big key to breeding too. And yes the old saying you can put a prepotent cock on a rock and raise a good pigeon. Means the bird reproduces its quality into the off spring very well. Now then how many breeding pair do you keep. Not the flying team but the stock loft.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Line Breeding / Inbreeding Chart*

I have a chart which I will share with anyone who will take the time to email me. There is a wealth of information out there if one takes the time to do the research. Most pigeon people, myself included, want the very simple and fast answer. 

The masters of our sport have done their homework, I think that is why they are the masters. If it was easy to master the art and science of breeding, then everyone could be breeding champions. It is hard work.

I took the road less traveled. I started with genetic material which represented thirty years of work by a master of selective line and inbreeding. If you are starting out with totally unrelated birds, you have generations of work to do, before you have a consistant genetic package.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The only simple and fast answer there is. Start with the best birds you can get. Then build from there. Often some people start with numbers. Buy several different breeding pairs. Instead of just one or a few really good birds. But then the person still has to put the birds together that best compliment each other to get results. And yes it is no easy road to build a team /family of birds that can make the cut. But the person sees there efferts a little each year towards improvement. The old saying you have to start somewhere. Holds good sence. And the other every body loves to win but know one loves a winner Is another. Because when you have done your homework to the best of your abilty. And are getting results. And the people who have just hoped for luck have not. Well they have no reason but excuses. It takes time to get results. But getting there can be fun. And a great learning experiance. No one has the answer. And in the pigeon world people love to share birds and knowledge. It becomes a work of the minds eye. We owe it to the people of the past. And the present that has guided the way to improve by. To carry forward instead of hold.


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Yes there is enough information out there to make your head swim, Its like math in School, how much of it are you really going to use in the real world . My opinion is much of it is useless for practical breeding. The whole goal is to move forward and selection is the key but you must know how and what to select for the breed at hand and plus if you select with major faults you can ruin the best of families no matter what you are breeding, and you try to breed with the future in mind. How many oldtimers out there actually knew the science of inbreeding of any breed ? I also picked up a family of birds that had many many years of hard work put into it by someone else and I would recomend highly that this is the way to go, but this isnt allways possible for some, this is like anything it's a learn as you go process.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I have been following this thread with interest, just out of curiosity. Sounds like you have to be a biology major to breed successful champions!
Robert, this comment intrigued me:

*And in the pigeon world people love to share birds and knowledge.*

In the posts by you, Warren, Scott and Lovebirds, it sort of sounds like in order to build a family of winners, you need to be kind of territorial about your birds and keep a "closed" loft. By that I mean, sounds like you work with the best of what you have and try to build on that by trying to "breed out" any defective traits.
Just out of curiosity, I was wondering, do people ever lend out or would it ever be a possibility that people would lend out champion birds for stud? Say, Robert, you have a near perfect male specimen and Warren has a near perfect hen....would it ever make sense to pair these two birds to get better babies? Or is it just not done in the pigeon world and people keep their birds to themselves? 
Just wondering....(Sorry if these are dopey questions or observations...I know less than nothing about breeding, etc..LOL)  Am just curious.
Thanks
Linda


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## Motherlodelofts (Oct 9, 2004)

Linda there's a saying " you can't make chicken soup out of Chicken poop" (ok I cleaned it up a little LOL) The problem with knowing to much is you can easily bypass what is right in front of you. What I see way to often in my breed is people trying to breed towards some famous long dead bird or fancier and ignoreing the generations passing through thier own lofts, looks good on a pedigree but means little otherwise and normally they end up going way backwards. Yes I keep a very closed loft and I am very gaurded with them as far as outside birds. Although I do have two pair outside of this family and they are bred out back and never are put into my main family Ind breeding area, but these do tie in way back. Down the road I'll battlecross them for hybred vigor and the good young will be used only for the fly teams. These will never be bred back into either family. As for this family it can give me some of the best that the breed has to offer,just way to few of them though. The goal is to up the percentages of the truelly good ones and this is where inbreeding and linebreeding has played in as a tight gene pool makes it much more obtainable. Sometimes its two steps foward and one step back. Sometimes you think you have a clear path only to find you hit a dead in. Then you just backup and or switch directions. The bottom line is you just keep trying to inch forward and the birds themselfs tell you if you are making headway. So no I do not see this as being complicated at all as the birds themselfs are the only one's that can tell you if you are on the right path !!!! The only time I'll bring in a outside bird is if they are out of the same family very close up and nothing else was bred in. I can get this out of only two other lofts that I know for 100 0/0 for sure what the birds are without question. Us three will pinch birds from each other here and there and generally our lofts are open to each other. In other words I'll give or loan them anything they want and vise versa.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Lin yes birds are loaned to one another. working and building different family lines. No one loft has the answer. Loaning birds shares the program. Buying is done to. there are in most breeds someone else that is going in the same direction. just like colored birds. If a bird of a different color has what you need put it to the program. You can allways get color back. the goal is to strive towards the goal. And you have to race, show perform. To test the birds. other wise in the loft they start looking preety good. But how they hold up in competion lets you see where you are going. If you have room you will have birds that you wont breed from each year. And will have birds you have used have the genepool going that you can loan out sell ect. If when you are putting the birds together. And do not have the balanced bird for that bird why put it to use. hold it over. Ten pair of birds put together for the sake of breeding will not step you forward. But ten pair put together to build off does. Adding out side blood is done for improvement . And can not be done all the time. But it takes you forward sometimes. Any one can breed and do good with the birds. But being consistant. takes building birds that have a strong gene pool to build on. The past birds are that. The future birds are the improved birds. No bird is perfect. so improving will allways be ahead.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thank you both for the answers....it sounds like a never ending project. But, I guess the fun is in the challenge and the success stories are well earned.
It sounds like the breeding process is a true marriage of art and science.
Good luck to you all....I will be following with interest.

Thanks
Linda


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Pied to white would breed back to white faster. But pied to pied. You wouyld keep the birds that had more white each time. That could take several seasons. Colors in hook bills. Have come about by in breeding. causeing color mutation.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Very Simple Really*

If I did this correctly, then you should be able to see a line/inbreeding chart. Like a lot of things, if you have a plan or roadmap, and follow the map, the odds of getting where you want to go is greatly improved.

If I had to start all over again, I would acquire the best pair of birds I could afford, and I would keep only the exceptional bird for my breeding program. Way too often, fanciers will sacrifice quanity over quality. They will end up with over a hundred birds and only a couple or so will be really exceptional, the rest will just be average.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm back. Was gone all day yesterday and today is "football day", especially when the Cowboys are playing.  Anyway, I've read all the posts and appreciate all the info. The chart is really cool, now if I can just figure it out.  Just kidding. Re Lee, as to the numbers of breeders we have.........we actually have 18 pairs. Out of those 18 pairs, 7 are new this year, 7 are in their second year of breeding in our loft and with the losses last year, I can't blame the birds, so I really don't know how or if they produce good racers. We gave two pair to a new flyer and he seems satisfied with them. I gave him the breeders and their youngsters race records and told him that I would take them back if or when he decided he didn't want to or couldn't use them anymore. He's never offered them back.  We have 4 pairs that have been with us since 2000, and have produced every year, but one of those is the pair with the hen that apparently has some "bad genes". So when I said we had two pair, I was referring to the BEST two pair in our loft. So, bottom line is, we have our work cut out for us and after this year, I think we will start concentrating on trying to establish some sort of "family" in our loft to work with, rather than just breed birds year after year. re lee, you stated "But then the person still has to put the birds together that best compliment each other to get results." I hear that a lot, but what exactly do you look for. Am I to look at wings, eyes, feathers, size of birds??? I'm not sure how to go about seeing if the birds compliment each other. We do have one pair, he is a blue check, she is a blue splash and I love the two birds together. No particular reason, just that when they are together they "look good". I'm not even sure I could explain what I mean. Then there is another pair, both red birds, and I don't like the cock. He's on the small side and I personally prefer the bigger birds, but that's just what I LIKE. Doesn't mean anything really. So maybe there are certain things I can look for? I don't know. Maybe it's just one of those things that you have to "learn" over the years. Anyway, I'm loving this topic. And Arty, you said who has time for all of this?? Well, as a pigeon flyer/racer, if you want to race competetivley, you make the time. It's not time consuming on a daily basis, but to do what these guys are talking about is time consuming in terms of years. That's what makes this sport fun and I think this is where a lot of pigeon flyers go wrong, me included. So many just raise birds every year, loose a bunch of birds every year and then moan and groan and cry and complain about the losses. Some of the losses are no one's fault really, just a part of the sport, but a lot of the losses are from raising inferior birds and that's certainly not the birds fault nor is it fair to the birds. If people who raised birds for competition would pay more attention to WHAT they are raising instead of HOW MANY they can raise, we and the birds would be better off. Just my two cents worth.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Lovebirds. Puting the birds together. Is looking at the birds needs. physical needs. Say a bird that has an open back. Put in on a bird that has more of a closed back. Ect. Then you look at flying records. HOW has it done in the aspects of the different races. What line is it down from that you should use it on this bird.ECT. A cock that what I call A heny cock. should never be put in a program. It may be able to fly ok. NOT all that great in the long run. Ilook at a cock that it puts the good wing on a bird. So it has to have alot of what you want. Balanced bird is not big not little. Its balanced for its size. You see some inbred small birds. Fast. But putting a good cross over does that to for the flying . Kinda heat the blood up. But not the future breeder. Just a flyer.. 18 pair has a strong area to build from. You say 4 pair are key producers. Work them towards your line. Check the records on all 18 pair see how they fit in on producing flyers. If they have not pull them out of the program. They are just raiseing numbers. And it does take awhile to build. How many family lines do you have. I mean such as janssen, arden. sion. hvr. Each was set for certion delivery. And remember to use both fair weather and hard weather birds. to breed the seperate needs. And each strain has both types in it already.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

what exactly is an "open back"?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When there is not good feather coverage of the back as the bird stands. This is wing feather that covers the back. In flight water shed from rain, and wind passage or should I say air. helps the bird perform . You see some birds opened back almost up to the wing butt sometimes. Not a good thing To keep . But happens. so mating to control it helps.


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

*Great Subject*

I just want to say this has been one of the most interesting subjects I've read on this list! There's so much information it almost boggles the mind. But when you read long enough, and often enough, it begins to settle in a little more. You guys are a wealth of knowledge and experience. After my first year of "random" matings I'm now thinking about what birds to put together to improve and build the family of birds that I would like to develop. Out of curiosity...is there a book or articles that shows the "judging" points or areas that you look for as to what is desirable and what isn't? Such as the "open" back, "tight vents" (something I read all the time) and so on. I can look at a bird and "overall" know that some look better than others, but I'm not able to dissect it and say, objectively, what is good or bad about a particular bird. Thank you for a very interesting topic.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jerry what breed do you race?


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## Dove_girl(Emily (Dec 20, 2004)

What the heck are YOU people talking about?!!?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Emily,

These members are discussing various approaches to breeding their birds in order to strengthen good traits and/or eliminate unwanted traits. It's a fairly complex subject as you have seen.

Terry


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

Robert, I'm not racing birds at this time. I really wanted to race, but I've found that in my line of business (campground owner/operator) that the seasons of both are like shadows (April-October). Also, there are no close clubs (50-75 miles). All racing activity centers towards the weekend...so does camping. I've been thinking about sending birds out to some one loft races, etc., but know very little about them or how they operate. Also, I have a line of white pletinckx and I am working towards building a flock for ceremonial release business (plan to open for business in April). I am working towards adding stronger flying homers (Janssens, mostly) into the line and then crossing back to establish white color again. I'm certainly not the typical correspondant in this area, but I totally enjoy reading about everyone else's experiences and learning as much as I can.


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

*Strains of Homers*

Robert, to answer your question more fully, in the last 1.5 years when I first got "bitten by the bug", I have purchased or have been gifted all my adult breeders. Any I have purchased have been Janssen based in the colored racers and Pletinckx, Pletinckx/Van Hee and Hanseen in the white homers. Then I have been gifted a few birds that have Delbar, Bastin/Trenton, Bandit (This is like 1 bird each in that dept.) as well as Janssen, such as the 4 I have from you. (The red cock, sadly, managed to escape and was unable to recover him.) Out of the colored racers I have several 04's that have not been in any documented races or anything to show how they do, but some are exceptional looking birds and are very strong, eager fliers...always first out of the loft and stay at the head of the pack. Of the white line, some fly fine with the racers, but some don't want to leave the loft. I'm trying to document the breeders these birds come from to eliminate them from the program. Last season I had some Janssen/Pletinckx-VanHee crosses that I have saved the best appearing birds/fliers from to cross back on white again this year in my efforts to improve the flying abilities. Sorry to ramble on so but wanted to give you the complete picture.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jerry If I remember right you plan to have whites as a base color. And perhaps a white release set of birds. The first cross on the whites will produce pied colored birds. From these let them mature. then toss them as you can to a point reaching say 75 miles. Then decide the birds carrying more white that home well. To use as a cross back to the white. Then these young breed then to each other to set color and strenghs. Now you will get pieds agin perhaps some whites Then the young they raise put some back to white You should get several whites. And the others pair them as is. in color. Now you are getting the strain cross over with color. That is the white line. Your older whites let them continue to breed and cross them. Your new whites produced of the color crossing put them as a family line to keep the improved vigar. Is the delbar you have a white delbar. I have phased out of my racing homers and went just to the fantails. I keep mostly white fantails. But do use some pied and other colors back into the white If the bird haswhat I need. But stay with a family line. of birds. Dont think much on the racing and showing .As that is not where you are going now. Just build the birds for what youneed . BUt build with the same aspect of racing. Alert birds that can come home trap well and look as though they can carry a race. And if you breed in the violet eye on your whites That is what Eye used to see on plentix birds in the 70s. And they would race.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*White Racers*

Jerry,

I could not help my thought process. You are talking about years of work here. Why not simply purchase a few pair of white racing pigeons from some half decent stock and be done with it ? I don't know what your money situation is, but it almost seems like you are trying to reinvent the wheel. 

I often wondered what the facination was with a white dove release anyway. Once they are up in the air, can the average person tell the difference between a white bird, and a red bar ? The only reason I feel compelled to ask these questions, is I see people doing the same thing with "average" racing pigeons, taking years if not decades to try and increase the quality.

When you figure in feed, racing fees, car expenses, etc. etc. we have a hobby that is costing thousands of dollars a year. On top of that, there can be many thousands spent on a loft and electronic clocks, vitamins, grit, etc etc. 

Break out your Visa card, or your home equity line of credit and buy yourself some decent breeding stock. You will save ten or fifteen years in your breeding program, and you will have them for years to come. If you purchase quality, you can raise some youngsters off them, and sell them, or keep the youngsters and sell your original breeding stock. 

If you start with junk. The odds are ten years from now, you will still own junk. It costs just as much to feed and train junk as it does 1st class birds.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren The whites he has may not be junk. I sent him some birds last spring to cross into the whites. Color is not that hard to get back. And as you know NOT that many racers raise whites for racing. So why not cross then bring the color back. No hard problem there. sure it would be easy to buy top whites. But I do not think there are that many out there any more. Now maybe bandit cross to white would produce something. But then color still has to come back. And alot of people have gone to blue and blue check in racers in the last few years. No other colr. And you know other colors can fly. But some people now think they can not. I still say its in the breeding. And color may attract hawks. But all birds do that. Just the hawk has to catch the bird.


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

*Not Exactly Junk*

Warren, Thanks for your thoughts and potential solutions. I'm not really trying to re-invent the wheel, here. My whites do fine for releases and some might make even make halfway decent racers. But they get home in decent time and they don't have to break speed records to be worthwhile in the release business. My intent is just to gradually improve the bloodlines and, who knows, maybe race them someday. It is a challenge and I look at it as an enjoyable hobby and not a life-long ordeal. If I could do nothing with what I currrently have, your solution would probably be the best for me. But I don't know if I could have any real pride in them under those circumstances.
Some of the racing homers I have come from some good families, but, I know, the pedigree doesn't pay the bills! I have some Keizer and Generaal birds that are always eager to fly and stay at the front of the flock. I guess its just the thrill of playing with them and watching them improve. As far as the release business goes, I can't explain the interest and its growth. You're right about what they see once they are in the air...it is difficult to discern any light colored bird's underside from white. But they do see them on display and intrigued by their "beauty and grace" (not trying to get too maudlin here...LOL). And I can more than pay the feed bill for a month with one release. I do enjoy it so I'll keep at it as long as the interest is there...it does seem to be growing in popularity. Thanks for the thoughts. I appreciate your view and hope I haven't taken up too much space on the "racing" section. Just curious,...did you start out with the caliber of birds you have now? Have you worked to improve the lines, or just purchase better birds as you went along?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Poor Use of Words.*

Jerry & Re Lee,

As I read my own post again, I realise my poor choice of words. I did not mean to infer that your birds were "Junk". What I meant was if a person ( not meaning you in particular ) wanted to start to create a strain of top racing pigeons, it would be far easyer to purchase some top birds to begin with, rather then start with a collection of various birds and try to breed them up over the years.

You may have been fortunate to get some good stock as gifts. Often a new guy will end up with a little bit of everything that may vary greatly in breeding value. I had in mind a particular fellow when I wrote that Jerry. The guy may have a decent bird here and there, but it would take a master breeder many, many years to make a family out of the collection. A lot of them were simply very poor quality specimins.

Have fun and enjoy what you are doing. Personally, I like red velvets and dark velvets. I purchased the best inbred family of reds and silvers I could find. That is what I did my second time around. My first time, I paid .25 cents a piece at a farmers market for ferals. So, I have gone from one extreme to another.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Warren Do you think that as long as raceing homers have been an active sport here in the USA that there should be just as good of birds bred here By many of the racing people? And what has been the hold back. Myself I think that manyt have not set down with a family of birds. They bought here and there. trying to by a win. Instead of buying and building. Back in the 60s the 70s. Good birds were imported alot cheaper then todays price. And Few took advantage of it. Now the prices are high for the top birds for people wanting to start. To many times paper gets sold and the birds do not meet the need. This is sad but true. And the beginers get basicly took. A person today that wants a strong start in top racers Would say have to spend say forty thousand dollars. So most settle for cheaper stock. And have to build with what they can. I remember back in the 70s A person I knew had birds he never gave over 2. dollars a piece for them. But they would fly . And he won His share of the races. One of the people he flew aginst was the late Jimmy Davis. Head of the AU . but not at tha time. Now jim He would do the best he could to get someone off to a good start. Often for free. And he hadsome good birds. He was a great pigeon man. I myself recieved several birds from Jim They were good birds. What I am saying. is a person that wants to get a start. Need a break in the racing world today. And I know that people do give or really discount good stock birds to get a person off to a good start. And a person can not do that for every body. But The price on racing homers need to come back down. 25 years ago was not a janssen from the brothers about 1.200 dollars ther about. And the birds back then were of a closer relation to the top janssens. 019. mercx, da bull and such.I know that a winner of a 20000 bird race is hard to by. But birds bred down from that line that can build a family of birds are not. Big money races they pay off. But like the race horse just the top people with some bucks can now afford to compete. And the others they just have a horse. The racing pigeon is a back yard sport. I have had some good birds in the past. But never thouight the pigeon would get so high in dollars. Show pigeons at least you can see what you buy. And never pay the big buck as racers have gone to. Sure some are several hundred dollars. But like I said you see what you bought. A racer only tells 100% in the sky. And the other part is in the looks. Building a family of birds. And getting good birds at a fare price need to go hand in hand. Im not whining just stating a point. What is your out look on this.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*The Good Ole Days*

Re Lee,

You make some very good points. Money has come to the sport, good, bad or indifferent. It is no longer a back yard sport for a poor man or woman. You can have an opinion as to the pros and cons, but that is now the reality. 

And like many things in life, be it a house, a car, a stock, a collectiable, you can find a bargain, or pay to much. This sport does not protect the ignorant, or a fool, anymore then the local horse track does. And if we use the race horse as an example, you can compete with a $10,000 horse, or a $100,000 or a million dollar horse. What level do you want to play at ? 

You can go to Alantic City or Las Vegas and go to a $5 table or a $50 table, or a $500 table. So in many ways, our sport is catching up with the rest of the world, is it not ?

So like a lot of things in life, where is your pocket book ? You can say it is not fair, but since when was life or nature fair ? I personally do not think that you can be a serious competitor with a loft full of $50 pigeons. And if you have any dreams of winning a $200,000 + prize from a one loft race, that has entry fees in the four figures, why would you even bother ?

Remember the old saying, "Poor Man's Race Horse" ?, Well where is the entry point to enter the race horse game, $30-40,000 ? For the price of that, or an automobile, you can purchase a few good birds, and that could be a good starting foundation. If you have a friend who will lend or give you birds at that level, then that is great. Most people are not going to have a relationship with a flyer at that level.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

That is what I was getting at. Racing pigeons are going to a bigger set. The average person wont be getting in the sport as big as befor. But bird can still when bred right do good. Starting good helps build a line of birds. You see things just a little different. The sport should remain a sport. And yes big money is being put up now in the one loft races. Which I think is great. But several of the birds being sold at high prices. Are just paper. Birds bred out of top birds will still have several that do not perform.say a person raised 100 young birds out of the 100. Say 3 or 5 are good. 97 95 are just ok to fair. That is what I see. Why sell the big number of birds at a price. Sure they are better then some one elses. But they do not need a big dollar price. The few that were top they will be kept. Or sold at a higher price. Anway this wont lead to but more debate. The old saying I will not sell a bird that I would not be willing to use myself. Needs to come back to the sport.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Right Again !*

Mister Re Lee,

You are correct again, on a number of very good points. Although gentlemen may disagree on some finer points. I think it is possible for a closely bred family to produce a higher number of "Exceptional" birds then 3 to 5 per 100. Of course how one defines that "Exceptional" is another post. 
I don't know what a really good number would be, but perhaps 5 to 10 "Very Special" and another 10 as "Useful" would constitute outstanding results. Now if the breeder was skilled enough to only select only those defined as "Exceptional" for his breeding program, the fanicer would elevate himself to the level of a true strain maker. As in pigeons, perhaps only 3 to 5 fanicers per 100 are going to be very good. Among these there will be a few who are "Champions", and fewer still among these will be "World Champions". After you have gotten to that level, there will still be a very few, who will in turn be the "Mozarts" of the pigeon world. The one, or two in a million fanciers.

I think this guy is one  : http://www.siegelpigeons.com/news/news-ludo.html

Now if everything else were equal, and you were able to secure some good birds from this guys family. Would your task be just a bit more interesting ?


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## Jerry (Nov 21, 2003)

*Pure Gold*

Warren, Thanks for that link. It was certainly good reading. Seems like everything he touches turns to gold!
Happy Holidays!


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I used the 100 bird as a point. As I do not think a person breeding good birds needs to raise 100. I like the number 50. As you should be able to go thru 50 birds find the stand outs. select the usefull birds and The rest find a different home. Then Watch how the birds further devlop. I liked reading the link on the ludlos. A relitive new family of birds. But from an old base. I had 3 ludlos. That I crossed to the da bull line of janssens. But I no longer have racing homers. I liked the key that ludlo did not keep many birds but quality birds So many try numbers And take to much time breeding in hopes for that certion bird. When just one prepotent bird can turn a whole loft around. IF the person uses it right. Useful birds can be hold overs. Or sold to help others. Key birds to be kept and built off. In racing. They are best to build a strong old bird team. And future breeders. And in that way numbers are llower in the loft but resalts are much higher. This has been a great subject on the birds and the concept of breeding towards a strong family line.


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