# From a Doting Love to Narcissus



## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Any insight mighty appreciated.

Our two indoor, rescued racing pij have been through two nesting cycles together -- with fake eggs. All behavior seemed to follow "normal." 

Now, they are on their third nest, but with this cycle our male, Clive, went a little nuts with the nest building. (Clive is 2 years old, Chauncey the lady is 10+) 

We've provided him with a variety of nest building materials, including his favorite -- wooden, coffee stir sticks -- and he built for days and days and days until he accumulated a pile of hundreds of sticks in his nest box. A friend compared him to Richard Dreyfuss in "Close Encounters" . . . where he starts building a mud mountain in his living room. 

** I went out of town and Clive's caretaker gave him unlimited amounts of stir sticks and he refused to use any of the other nesting materials. I'll be balancing the building materials better next time, just because I don't think they make for the most comfortable nest.  **

The photos you can link to here show that pile of sticks in progress. Our girl is like the princess and the pea on top of that pile. (Sorry -- can't get my photos to upload to Pigeon Talk albums so have to link out. I've put in a note to the webmaster for help.)

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Zg6KBqVJq2CfGjnsBGmD7w?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WWok0Ssg4pBDa240uvm_Mg?feat=directlink

Since he built the nest (10 days ago) he hasn't been on the eggs once. In previous nesting cycles, they have shared the duties equally. Our girl has only been off the nest for seconds at a time. Clive goes in and cuddles with her from time to time, but when she leaves to go eat, get a stretch, he leaves with her. In the past, he'd move onto the eggs and give her a break.

I was thinking he might be frustrated by a lack of stimulation, a flock, an outdoor aviary. Or could it have something to do with a the previous "failed" nests? He spends time in front of one of his mirrors in the room, to the exclusion of almost everything else.

What do you think? Normal or Abby-normal? Lonely? Frustrated? Just a change in routine?

I'd very much like for our pij to be happy and healthy and wonder if you know what this behavior might indicate -- if anything at all.

Many thanks!


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## TwinkieSlug (Oct 6, 2009)

Cute pix! Maybe Clive's smart enough to know that a fake egg really doesn't require much attention...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Cute piggies--try some strips of index cards cut up thinner sort of--just for a change of routiene for them--they might not even like them...You have a construction engineer that a designer of chaos (sp) c.hert


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks. I've cut up cards, papers, paper towels, cotton t-shirts -- added Timothy hay. Will give him those tobacco twigs to the next nesting cycle. I think poor Clive might be bored, with all his young energy. I'm trying to find ways to enrich his environment for more stimulation. I've been hiding food around the room, other things. If we had room and an aviary, we'd definitely adopt a few more rescues for company. Right now, trying to figure out how to make their indoor lives a bit better. Will stay on it . . .


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

I wouldn't consider his behavior abby-normal (love "Young Frankenstein"!). One of my birds tends to be like that - rather spend time with his mate than on the nest. Thinner, softer nest material might make a difference...or it might not. I think you are doing an awesome job of offering your birds appropriate options!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think he is bored. When she is sitting eggs, she is not normally going to mate. When I have hens sitting eggs, many of the males eventually get bored, and they start chasing and harrassing the other females in the loft. They normally don't get anywhere with them, as most are already mated, but this activity gives them something to do. So when she is being "all mother", he gets bored. So he spends more time flirting with his mirror. Yes, with others around, it does give them more stimulation. So what he is doing is normal. If he had other birds around, he would be flirting with them, and then probably more apt to go back and take his turn on the nest.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I think...just guessing, he is worried about the "intruder" in the mirror, and is protecting his mate and box from "him"...I would cover up the mirror..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I think...just guessing, he is worried about the "intruder" in the mirror, and is protecting his mate and box from "him"...I would cover up the mirror..


That's possible, but I just think he's bored and is flirting with it. Don't your birds get bored when their mate is only interested in hatching the eggs. Mine can't be the only ones. But in a loft, they have lots more stimulation. Places to go and other females to harass. LOL.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> That's possible, but I just think he's bored and is flirting with it. Don't your birds get bored when their mate is only interested in hatching the eggs. Mine can't be the only ones. But in a loft, they have lots more stimulation. Places to go and other females to harass. LOL.


thats true, he changed his behavior... either way flirting or fight the mirror needs to go IMO. being obssesed with it does not seem healthy as it has changed his normal natural behavior.. but, if the eggs are just dummies..what does it matter.. ... unless I guess he really is bored of his domestic duties...lol.. but he's not talking so it would only be a guess..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> thats true, he changed his behavior... either way flirting or fight the mirror needs to go IMO. being obssesed with it does not seem healthy as it has changed his normal natural behavior.. but, if the eggs are just dummies..what does it matter.. ... unless I guess he really is bored of his domestic duties...lol.. but he's not talking so it would only be a guess..


I guess the reason it does matter is that the hen doesn't get a break from sitting the eggs fake or not. She only gets off the nest for a few minutes at a time. That isn't fair to her. She needs to get out to. When I have a male who won't take his turn, and won't let his mate out, I lock him in and take her out for a while each day. She needs to be able to get some exercise too. I had a male who would never let her out and take his turn. So I did this each day for a couple of hours. Now he takes his turn.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I guess the reason it does matter is that the hen doesn't get a break from sitting the eggs fake or not. She only gets off the nest for a few minutes at a time. That isn't fair to her. She needs to get out to. When I have a male who won't take his turn, and won't let his mate out, I lock him in and take her out for a while each day. She needs to be able to get some exercise too. I had a male who would never let her out and take his turn. So I did this each day for a couple of hours. Now he takes his turn.


well sitting is'nt exactly hard work...lol.. but they do need to expell that big nest poop which needs to be... well...expelled. I have cock birds that do not sit for very long, but they make it up to her with feeding babies, while the hen is looking for another nest for the next round.....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> well sitting is'nt exactly hard work...lol.. but they do need to expell that big nest poop which needs to be... well...expelled. I have cock birds that do not sit for very long, but they make it up to her with feeding babies, while the hen is looking for another nest for the next round.....


No, it's not hard work, but I think she needs exercise, like walking or flying around. If this happens every month for 18 days, she won't get much. She'll become a fat couch potato.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> No, it's not hard work, but I think she needs exercise, like walking or flying around. If this happens every month for 18 days, she won't get much. She'll become a fat couch potato.


I can identify with that....lol....


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yeh, me too!


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Too funny, this exchange. Thanks, guys. Okay, now I'm torn -- to keep or take the mirror? He has a nice mirror in his cage and he likes that. He sits in front of it. That one has never interfered with his parental duties. If he's enjoying the flirtation with the additional mirror, I'd love to keep it. But if it's a protective instinct, I'll take it away. Maybe I'll remove it for a few days to see what happens. I originally put it in the room because he was so over-the-top with the nest building (as compared to the last two cycles), I thought it might be a bored response as well. 

Jay, I haven't seen Young Frankenstein in quite a few years now. I'm overdue. But I've never been able to think of the word "abnormal" without that reference.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LOL. Well let us know how it goes with the mirror gone. Maybe he'll start using the one in the cage more. I'll be curious to see what happens. Never a dull moment, is there? Pigeons are something else.


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## StanelyPidge09 (May 22, 2009)

Haha! I loved reading this thread. Jay and Spirit wings you crack me up! 

I don't know too much about nesting as Stanley gave up on me laying an egg the ONE time he attempted it. It sounds like he is bored as well, if this is his third clutch of eggs and none have hatched he is probably wondering "why put all my energy into these eggs, the same thing will happen as before". Thats what I would be thinking 

BTW, the pictures of the nest are too cute!


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

I know, StanelyPidge. I've wondered about that. He's a lot younger than Chauncey and obviously more spirited. A bird bred to race, living indoors is probably not the recipe for total, unadulterated happiness. But . . . I have to keep remembering what his fate would have been had we not stepped in. And remind myself that he does have room to fly -- and a home with a companion he seems to love. I wish I could watch them cut loose and go full throttle in the sky. Even once. I don't imagine they will ever be able to do that, given the many dangers inherent in homers who can't go home. Not to mention, we have a hungry Cooper's Hawk who roosts outside our window.

** Removed the room mirror today to see if it makes a difference. He's cooing a lot, he seems very restless. He's looking for his "friends" but the mirror is gone. The record still stands for this nesting cycle: not one minute on the nest by Mr. Clive. Little knucklehead! Still, I caught him and Chauncey kissing, so she's not holding it against him. I think he's still super-stud Clive to her.  **


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Poor thing, you took his friends away.
If it doesn't change anything, I'd bring them back. Don't think it will change his nesting behavior, but I know you have to try. Good luck.


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## StanelyPidge09 (May 22, 2009)

Chauncey and Clive are VERY lucky to have a safe and loving home! I don't mean that he is bored with his lifestyle or mate at all. I think he is just bored of nesting


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Those pigeons are very very lucky to have you...enjoying the thread...c.hert


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Taking his mirror away doesn't seem to have changed anything. He roams the room looking for his friends, so I think I'll put it back. 

One question: The cage and nest box are on top of a table. I can put the mirror at table height on a different table, so Chauncey can see what he's doing. Or, I can put it back on the floor where it was. I noticed Chauncey was craning her neck to see him when he was strutting around on the floor. I imagine, sitting alone on that nest, she'd prefer to see where his conflicts and flirtations are taking place? Or not?

My perception right now is that he's restless. He's cooing and groaning like he does during their mating period. And he still has no interest in his nest box. Maybe Clive is not monogamous at heart. 

As always, I wish I spoke Pij!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Not many male pigeons are! LOL. Given the chance they'll often mate where they can. He's probably calling for anyone who will answer. How long has she been on the eggs? He's probably hoping she will mate. LOL.


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

Hmm. So the whole "mated for life" thing really means "I love you but, whoa -- hottie at 3-o'clock!"


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

YES! But give them credit. They usually return home to their mate. LOL.


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Not like every human does... lol.

Question, aren't pigeons supposed to pass the mirror test?


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

valeri said:


> ...A bird bred to race, living indoors is probably not the recipe for total, unadulterated happiness....


As he gets a bit older, he'll settle down more. What you're seeing is the energy of youth. 



valeri said:


> ...I noticed Chauncey was craning her neck to see him when he was strutting around on the floor...


Pigeons like to keep track of their surroundings. This is another way of saying they are very nosey! 



valeri said:


> Hmm. So the whole "mated for life" thing really means "I love you but, whoa -- hottie at 3-o'clock!"


Love your phrasing!!!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

"As he gets a bit older, he'll settle down more. What you're seeing is the energy of youth."


with the mirror gone and no change, by jove I do believe the the quote above is spot on.....


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## valeri (Sep 6, 2009)

I know you're all right about the youth. Chauncey was banded in 1999, so we're assuming she's 10+. She has been, as I've said before, a true Zen Master. Calm, collected, accepting. Clive is a loose cannon. And we have attributed a lot of that to his youth. I just feel kind of bad that he's spending this first segment of his youth indoors. When the weather gets warmer, we're going to screen the windows for more of a fresh air experience. That will help. But I admit that it won't be until we can get ourselves a place with an outdoor aviary that I will feel fully reconciled. As I tell my friends, my only consolation is trying to remember where each of them would be were it not for the rescue. Do you think that's valid? Or is it just a lame rationalization?

_*Edited to add:* Given that Chauncey is 10+, I'm assuming she'll stop laying eggs at some point? We were actually surprised she was still laying, thinking maybe her band wasn't accurately depicting the year she was born. Or, that she was a late bloomer. I'll have to research egg binding so that if she does, in fact, stop laying, I'll know the difference between a problem and a natural course of events._


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

valeri said:


> As I tell my friends, my only consolation is trying to remember where each of them would be were it not for the rescue. Do you think that's valid? Or is it just a lame rationalization?



No. That's not a lame rationalization. It's very valid. You really care about your birds. Believe me, they could be in much lesser places than with you. You do all you can to take good care of them, and make them happy. They are lucky to have you. I think we all feel that way that have rescues. We all wish that we could give them more. I have a loft and aviary for my rescues, good food, clean water, plenty of perches and nest boxes. It's also heated in the colder weather, and I wish that the aviary could be huge. I wish I could build an aviary like Waynette has. There is always something we could change. It's because we do care that we feel that way. And just from your posts, it is very apparent how very much you do care. They are very lucky birds to have such a caring owner.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

valeri said:


> ..._*Edited to add:* Given that Chauncey is 10+, I'm assuming she'll stop laying eggs at some point? We were actually surprised she was still laying, thinking maybe her band wasn't accurately depicting the year she was born. Or, that she was a late bloomer. I'll have to research egg binding so that if she does, in fact, stop laying, I'll know the difference between a problem and a natural course of events._


Grace here is a '98 homer and still lays occasionally. I do appreciate her slightly calmer demeanor compared to her younger years, although she still does some energetic flying especially post-bath.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I also feel the same way as Jay3 does for I also wished I could do better for my indoor birds but they are very lucky to have a good secure wholesome home with plenty of food and sharing of love and basically a sharing of life and for my loft birds I try to do the very best for them: and learn all that I can so that I am prepared. Your wording in your posts is just wonderful and I have really enjoyed this post and Spirits Bless You for being so kind to birdies and I am sure other animals as well throughout you life..thanks c.hert


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

pigeons really do like their comforts, food, water and a mate/friend and a place to nest...I would not think they contemplate how they used to live or wish for flying freedom. mine do like to fly and do what I call joyful flying...but if they were housed without it I think they would be just as happy, and not really think how they missed it... that is just a guess of course as we really do not know what a pigeon thinks...


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