# Father decided to mate with offspring



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

Long story short! So i had a pair homer for only a short amount of time. After the mother flew away, she left the father with two off springs. Luckily the off springs already weaned when mother flew away. Then father became sick and the older offspring split away. Leaving the 2nd offspring with sicky father. Then after couple weeks,the father healed and now he thinks that his 2nd offspring is his mate. Father let the 2nd offspring stay in his territory and as the 1st offspring come close to father's territory, he chased her away as an intruder. 

Lolz i thought that the first hatch is always a male but i guess Im wrong. The 1st off spring had paired up with one of my cock bird recently. 
for the 2nd offspring, (he/she) is still with father and father is already considering its his mate now. Father is calling for (him/her) and would eventually try to clean (her/him). 
I dont know if its a he or a she. could be a she but its quite aggressive like a cock. comparing to its nest mate, (he/she) is much smaller in size
and have father's color appearance while the 1st offspring had mother's color appearance and much heavier and bigger. Recently, (he/she) is showing interest to one of my check cock when the cock is doing dances to his mate. As the check cock call his mate to come to his nest area, (he/she) was quite amuse and went close to check on the cock. weird...

So now, i was thinking that should i let nature handle this or should i split father and (daughter/son) pairing up? 

If it turn out to be a cock, then i assume they will break up pretty soon and if its a hen, then they are incest....disgrace... 
BTW both off springs are young, only 4 months old.

Im not doing any race yet nor breeding for color and ability. As of now, none of my bird will breed in this time of year in Minnesota. I know that i will have some sad time for these young pairs at my loft this spring as they try to become parents.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

It can go either way. People do father/daughter and mother/son a lot for color and racing. Its acceptable and you wont run into problems the first time. Continually inbreeding can run into problems through, like scissor beaks.


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

as said sometimes a hen can be bred back to her father.. but because of a good reason... if you are just keeping pigeons for fun then there is no reason for them to hatch any young for you if you want to keep them as a pair. use fake eggs.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Inbreeding is rarely a problem in pigeons. For many generations now humans have been line breeding their pigeons, and as such, you should not have any problems with the pair.

If you do want to breed your pigeons, then there is nothing strange about letting this couple raise a clutch or two.

By the way, it is a total myth that every clutch off eggs will hatch into one male and one female squab. Many clutches have two males or two females. Also when the squabs are male and female, chances the the females is the older sibling is the same as the chances that the male is the older sibling.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

actually the the off springs of mine are both hens.. lolz i didnt expect that cause the older offspring has bigger body which i expect it to be a cock but hey its a hen after all.


----------



## APF_LOFT (Aug 9, 2010)

like they said inbreeding is only bad in human.


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Inbreeding is bad if done continually. I would assume those who suffer from genetic related side effects in human in breeding come from a history of such.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

well but im not breeding for color nor homing ability. It just happen naturally because of the fact the mother is gone and she grew up by her father's side when he was sick. Naturally he will push her out of his territory but due to his sickness, he just ignore her at that time. Now that he has healed, he been calling for her. he thinks she is his mate. Probably i should intervene and separate them. I have other young cock which can pair up with her.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

sev3ns0uls said:


> well but im not breeding for color nor homing ability. It just happen naturally because of the fact the mother is gone and she grew up by her father's side when he was sick. Naturally he will push her out of his territory but due to his sickness, he just ignore her at that time. Now that he has healed, he been calling for her. he thinks she is his mate. Probably i should intervene and separate them. I have other young cock which can pair up with her.


Actually I don't think that he would have naturally pushed her out of his territory. It is my experience that many males will happily allow their daughters to keep roosting in the nest if the mother is removed.

I often remove the hen to a different section when I don't want a second (or third) clutch, just as the male starts to drive her to nest again. This leaves the father to feed the babies (which he would have done anyway had the hen laid again). These males often allow their daughters to roost with him for a couple of months if there aren't any other females to mate up with. I assume a similar thing could happen in nature, if the mother were to die before the squabs had fledged.


----------



## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

rudolph.est said:


> Actually I don't think that he would have naturally pushed her out of his territory. It is my experience that many males will happily allow their daughters to keep roosting in the nest if the mother is removed.
> 
> I often remove the hen to a different section when I don't want a second (or third) clutch, just as the male starts to drive her to nest again. This leaves the father to feed the babies (which he would have done anyway had the hen laid again). These males often allow their daughters to roost with him for a couple of months if there aren't any other females to mate up with. I assume a similar thing could happen in nature, if the mother were to die before the squabs had fledged.


the mother flew off when the chicks are only about 2 moths old. Now they are both 4 and a half months old (teenager age). your situation may be in consideration. Normally the mother will be the one to drive old enough chicks away if she still present and going to lay another clutch because they can pose threats to her nest but since she took off and father got sick, no one push her out.


----------



## Lavender Hill Lofts (Dec 1, 2011)

Print Tippler said:


> Inbreeding is bad if done continually. I would assume those who suffer from genetic related side effects in human in breeding come from a history of such.


Inbreeding is only bad if you breed continually from birds that have defects. You'll have no problem inbreeding your birds for many generations assuming you remove those that show Undesirable traits.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Print Tippler said:


> It can go either way. People do father/daughter and mother/son a lot for color and racing. Its acceptable and you wont run into problems the first time. Continually inbreeding can run into problems through, like scissor beaks.


scissor beak can be from the hatching. And from totaly unrelated birds. Often when inbreeding starts getting tight You notice 1 birds getting smaller. Less fertile birds or shorter year time where they fertile. deformed feet ect. But when controled through records It can be a good thing. Just do not inbreed to fast as it shortens the use of the family group. Inbreeding is a toll to set need quality need key points and even desired color. No reason for back yard pets


----------



## Print Tippler (May 18, 2011)

Lavender Hill Lofts said:


> Inbreeding is only bad if you breed continually from birds that have defects. You'll have no problem inbreeding your birds for many generations assuming you *remove those that show Undesirable traits.*


how do you remove those that show undesirable traits? You shouldn't sell bad birds like that and you shouldn't "remove" them. You shouldn't breed birds you know will be mutants.


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

each year many thousands of birds are raised. each year thousands are reduced in most lofts to only the useable birds. Many thousands are given away to dealers and such . Only through selection has each breed gained . No selection the birds probably would all gone back to the old rock dove type as left uncontroled they revert back to natures way.. Man has cultivated the pigeon for centuries. Most birds have some kind of standard and others are selected from performance. So most often selection is not that hard to figure. But some do get rid of birds that turn out rathere good for someone else.


----------



## Phemmy (8 mo ago)

rudolph.est said:


> Actually I don't think that he would have naturally pushed her out of his territory. It is my experience that many males will happily allow their daughters to keep roosting in the nest if the mother is removed.
> 
> I often remove the hen to a different section when I don't want a second (or third) clutch, just as the male starts to drive her to nest again. This leaves the father to feed the babies (which he would have done anyway had the hen laid again). These males often allow their daughters to roost with him for a couple of months if there aren't any other females to mate up with. I assume a similar thing could happen in nature, if the mother were to die before the squabs had fledged.


Contrary to "if there aren't any other females to mate up with", I recently witnessed a pure white aggressive cock mate with his 2.6 month-old daughter (him/her) in the presence of the mother. I saw them kissing not feeding, and then the daughter positioned for mating and they mated several times. I guess the baby chick quickly grabbed that skills from watching both parents mating frequently.


----------



## Phemmy (8 mo ago)

Contrary to "if there aren't any other females to mate up with", I recently witnessed my pure white aggressive cock mates with his 2.6 month-old daughter (him/her) in the presence of the mother. I saw them kissing not feeding, and then the daughter positioned for mating and they mated several times. I guess the baby chick quickly grabbed that skills from watching both parents mating frequently.
The parents, a white cock and a blue-band hen hashed two eggs, the second chick didn't survive after 2 weeks because they stopped feeding her, despite I fed them well. One day I literally caught the male pigeon stepping on the chick with his claws and the chick appears to be begging for food. At that time, the first chick (that mate with the father) was four times the size.
Initially, because of the size of the first chick, I was thinking it's a male. However, mating with her father makes me think she is a female.


----------



## Doves Witness (Apr 23, 2016)

Prior to six months of age, doves don't have any reproductive drive. They may mimic the behaviors of adults, but they are doing so for different reasons. The young birds aren't trying to reproduce but rather they are learning to behave like adults. The adult males do have a reproductive drive and it must be quite strong because they will happily hop onto the back of any bird that is laying on the ground -- including other males, which usually results in a fight.


----------



## Phemmy (8 mo ago)

You are right, however hoping alone looks different most especially when the female assumed position and the male hop on her back ensuring that the rectum touches each and gladly separate with pride. That's real mating to me. It could be a practice but wrong for a father position!


----------

