# Help, pigeons with no beak



## diane fortune

I found a pigeon in town, fluffed up and not well. It had its face in its chest but when it moved it had no beak or 'nose bridge'. Its chest was wet and round its beak area it looked black and matted. I assumed it had flown into something and smashed its beak to bits. I called the RSPCA but they didn't attend. The bird then started to walk and tried to pick a crumb off the ground, it couldn't pick it up and this was very upsetting. If the bird couldn't eat it was going to starve to death. I went home and got some water, I thought at least I could give it a drink. When I got back he had joined the other pigeons in the area. As I walked over, all the other pigeons flew up and away except him, he looked pitiful but he wouldn't take any water. In the meantime the other birds had returned wondering what was on offer. Several came to get the water, half dozen or so, and they had THE SAME disfigurement. There were lots of pigeons that were fine, but the ones that came for the water all had their beaks missing. I then wondered if they had eaten something that had 'disolved' their beaks. None were as bad as the first one, his chest was wet, I assume from dribbleing. Does anybody know what this might be, to think of them all starving to death is horrible.


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## Pidgey

Oh, that sounds horrible--is there any way you could get a picture or catch any of them? They won't live long like that. Maybe there's some new kind of trap. Where is this?

Pidgey


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## John_D

Diane,

That is horrible. I cannot imagine what could have caused this. Either some very evil person has done this, or they have been victims of some awful glue trap or - as you suggest - something which has destroyed their beaks.

Did the RSPCA just refuse to come - did they simply not believe it, or just not care?

Are you in the UK? If so, where is this happening? I cannot think what could be done for them, if you are absolutely sure that there is _quite literally_ no beak at all. If this is so, then they would also be unable to drink.

John


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## diane fortune

These birds are in Middleton, Manchester. The RSPCA didn't refuse to come, I went back to the area several times over 4 hours, I phoned them twice and they said they would attend. If they did they didn't take the bird away. I had no problem finding it each time I went. I phoned a vet for advice and when I told him I had phoned the RSPCA he laughed. By this time I think I knew what he meant.


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## Pidgey

Well, I don't know what to tell you--if it were one bird and you could catch it, it may be possible to rehab it as an unreleasable. Its beak will never grow back. By the way, is it just the upper section or is it both the upper and lower beak portions? Anyhow, it may be possible to attach a prosthetic (that's actually a common procedure now for parrots and such) but if there's going to be a never-ending supply of beakless pigeons then I wouldn't know what to do.

What do you want to do? It doesn't look like the authorities are going to be of any help.

Pidgey


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## John_D

For the moment, I can only suggest that if you can catch the poor bird you first saw, it could be fed by popping peas and sweetcorn from a frozen veg pack (not tinned) thawed out in warm water into its mouth, and water dripped onto its tongue very carefully. 

I am sure a vet would only suggest that it be put down and, in such a condition, I'm not at all sure what could be done for it.

I shall email PICAS and tell them about this situation now.

John


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## John_D

Have written to Guy at PICAS, who has had some involvement with the local authorities in Manchester regarding their attempts to 'disperse' pigeons, to see if they can find out what is happening.

No names mentioned, of course.

John


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## Pidgey

That's got me about as upset as I get. If that were the work of somebody, I'd hate to think what I'd do if I caught them at it.

Pidgey


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## Reti

That is absolutely horrific. OMG, those poor birds. I would catch as many as I could and the ones that are beyond rehabbing I would put them to sleep, it is more humane than letting them die from dehydration and starvation.
Maybe something could be done for those who haven't lost the whole beak, but otherwise...
This is one of the worst stories I've ever heard.

Reti


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## Birdmom4ever

This is horrible. Did it appear all their beaks had been removed in some way? Is there any chance these were "short-faced" pigeons that someone abandoned? The reason I ask is that some breeds have such tiny beaks they appear to have no beak. But even if that were the case, they would starve in the wild because it would be too hard for them to eat.


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## Pidgey

I doubt that they're short-beaked pigeons because of the description of the black, matted stuff on the one. That sounds like dried blood. That points to traumatic injury that I can imagine happening to one as an accident, but not to several.

Pidgey


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## Camrron

This just strikes me as the work of someone, probably just one sick person who hates birds enough to injure and not kill them outright. A trap does come to mind though. I hope you can find out who it is and give those birds some justice. 

I keep hearing bad things about the RSPCA. It's too bad really since they had such a good, long and storied history of helping animals in need. The focus is never on pigeons though, not here either. So I don't really resent them for their main goal being the protection of dogs, cats, horses, foxes, etc and other domestic animals sort of in that order. There is only so much help and money to go around. It is up to individuals like yourself sometimes to do the things that make a difference. Keep your eyes open for the troublemaker in the neighborhood. 

While pigeons fly and can cover long distances they, like most creatures will tend to stick close to home and where their food supply is. My wild flock hardly ever even leaves the building they roost on except to come down for meals. Which makes me think the person who is doing this is very nearby indeed. Like I say, keep your eyes peeled and maybe get the attention of the local papers. They all have a nature/ conservation columnist on hand. I would also like to see some photos of what you are talking about. Any likleyhood you can post any?

Cameron


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## diane fortune

It has been suggested to me by a vet (only from my description) that it maybe a tiny mite that eats the beak away. I am going to try and find out about this mite. I am also going to try and take pictures if I can still find them


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## John_D

Except for specialist avian vets, it is unfortunate that most vets know little about even common pigeon ailments. 

Pigeons - and other birds - can get feather mites, ear mites and various other tiny blood-sucking mites, but one which could destroy the relatively hard beak sounds pretty unlikely. I am ready to be proven wrong, but that it is not just one isolated pigeon makes it even more unlikely.

I suspect some human-originated agency as the most likely cause.

John


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## pdpbison

Hi Diane Fortune...


My this is unsettleing...disturbing...horrific...


It is hard to imagine what would account for even one Pigeon in feral contexts being beakless for very long without perishing, let along several...

Although...Canker can do this, even to where the Beak, upper and lower, could literally fall off...and I suppose, a Pigeon could still live on reserves for some time even then...or maybe, somehow, even manage to eat some things enough to keep going...

I had Pigeon ( in 1983 or so) who lost her Beak entirely, top and bottom, from Canker. When I found her, the Beak was still 'there' but just barely, and it was comeing off in a nasty loose sideways kind of way...and she was starving also...very 'light', and very smelly. Was still a fllier and flew into my back yard to try grazeing with the other ferals and with my Pigeons who were out grazeing...

Anyway, got the Beak matter tidied up surgically by a kindly Vet who removed the ruined-diseased hopeless of it, and got the Canker tidied up, and the Pigeon actually got well very fast too...got her right weight back, and generally healed up fast once treated.

...and we ( there was a 'we' in those days which made things like this a lot easier! ) did 'Seed-Pops' for weeks, till she learned to peck in new ways, from a slightly elevated dish of Seeds initially, to help make up for the change in reach, which we made sure were all 'larger' kinds of Seeds to make it easier.

It did take her kind of a long time to learn to 'peck' with no Beak...but she did it! Six weeks I think...maybe 'five'...

She kept expecting her Beak to be there in how she pecked, and of course, that old accustomed method of pecking was not working, and her frustration and determination, was palpable...but, at some point, she got it, got the new technique down pat.

Pretty soon, she was the plump picture of glowing health and everything in every way, but, no Beak of course..

And, with a beakless Pigeon, 'Seed-Pops' are v-e-r-y easy to do...!

So...she looked like a little 'Dragon' of some kind...was a happy Bird, flew well and everything...sweet temprement...easy with people, comfortable...content...

So anyway, so long as it can go like it did for mine that time, and there is no reason it could not...a Beakless Pigeon can indeed have a completely fine life, and a long and happy one even...but may need a Beaked mate or pal to help them preen now and then, as well as a people-pal to to watch over them of course...and to do Seed-Pops with them till they learn to peck in a new way to get their Seeds by themselves...

I imagine a Beakless Pigeon could even feed their Babys allright for that matter...so long as the nuzzleing Babys could zero in to the right spot there, and I think they could do so just fine.

A Pigeon's lower Jaw hinge is farther down than their Beak suggests, so, they could still open their mouth more, even without a Beak, for the Baby's to be fed...and for 'pecking'...


So...do catch him, or 'them'...if you can...this might be a peculiar Canker strain's propensity, or represents some odd vector of Canker acquisition, to make an occurance which somehow is effecting several of these pigeons in a similar way...


And, they could just possibly end up pretty allrighty in the right hands and cares...and of course, would be much happier for it than they are now, or will be otherwise...for it.


Good luck!


Feel free to ask about safe 'traps' or other methods of captureing them...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D

Phil,

I think you could have a potential answer. This is the reply from PICAS UK first thing this morning:



> Dear John,
> 
> Firstly, thank you for contacting PiCAS UK.
> 
> I have spoken to our Technical Director about this issue and the only thing we can think of is that the birds have trichomoniasis; the trichcomonads eat away both flesh and the beak itself. It's very common but not usual that they will live long.
> 
> There's nothing out there that pest controllers use that could cause this problem so this is the only cause of such injuries that we can think of. The only other is hot foot but we've never heard of it having this effect.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Emma Haskell
> Client Support Manager
> PiCAS UK Ltd


Possible apologies to the vet Diane spoke to - it may be that the 'mites' referred to are the trichomonads. That threw me as I wouldn't term them 'mites'.

Thanks for that excellent recounting of your pigeon's experiences - I have to admit (shame on me) that I had completely discounted the possibility of canker having that effect on more than one very once-in-a-while rare case, let alone several together.

But how city ferals without the kind of care you provided could survive even a few days like that......  


John


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## Feefo

Hi Diane,

As John suggested it would be best to catch the first pigeon, see what you can do for it. If the poor thing doesn't make it then pass it on to DEFRA for investigation...what affects pigeons can affect other birds.

I wish that we had someone closer to help you. Nooti lives in Blackburn and would probably be able to determine what was wrong with the pigeon but she has not been well so is not an active member. She was moving last time we heard from her so I don't even know how to get in touch with her but she was one of the links in Wild-Life-Line. Perhaps if you telephoned the veterinary surgery that she used they might be able to tell you how to get in touch with Wild-Life-Line and by netwroking you could find volunteers willing to catch the injured pigeons and help get them to a sanctuary?

The veterinary surgery is Springfield Vets in Redlam 01254 54654. Midgeley Bird Rescue in Sheffield are pigeon friendly, perhaps they can also advise on steps to take.

I would suggest kicking up a fuss and getting the media in but that might backfire and give people ideas. 

I am in Norwich but can take the pigeons if there is no one closer.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

I think that the mites that someone earlier referred to that can destroy beaks are Knemidokoptes. I've seen a few horrible pictures in my vet books but it seems a long process through which the beaks get real gnarly first. Here's a simple description:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=3068

However, I've never seen a reference where they mention pigeons as getting them. I'd probably tend more towards the Trich possibility than them but it's still difficult for me to imagine this presentation in so many birds simultaneously. I'm not sure which bothers me more--that there's a sick individual loose or a new substrain of Trich that can do this with regularity.

Pidgey


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## Feefo

I agree that it is highly unlikely that canker (trichomoniasis) would affect a feral flock with beak loss in the manner that Diane described without at least affecting the throat to the extent that the pigeons would not be able to eat or drink. The cases that we have seen where the beaks were affected were a combination of canker and pigeon pox...the pigeon pox tends to affect the lower bowl at the front of the beak (sorry for the lack of technical terms) whereas the canker is more likely to affect the back of the throat.

Guy's field of expertise is humane pigeon control and as a result he probably knows a lot about the effects of inhumane control methods but I don't think he has ventured into pigeon rescue and rehabilitation or pigeon health.

NumberNine once posted a photo of a pigeon with no upper or lower beak but as far as I remember deleted everything before a conclusion was reached about how it got into that state.

Pidgey, thanks for that link! Les has a pigeon in his flock with a scaly growth on his leg...could be scaly leg mite...I will post him the link.


Cynthia


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## John_D

Yes, the mites do seem quite unlikely in this context. Also unlikely, I imagine, that yer average vet would know of them.

The trich idea bothers me some in that Diane mentioned that the 'bridge' (which must be the cere) was also affected. 

Dunno, Pidgey, but I'd expect trich really run riot in a bird would _most_ often (notwithstanding Phil's pigeon) just clog up the throat before it got to the point observed, and the pigeon starve to death

John

Ah, see Cynthia already put forward that conclusion. Outbreak of pox virus?


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## Feefo

Could also be a circovirus:

http://www.biobest.co.uk/diagnostics/pbfd.html

Cynthia


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## John_D

cyro51 said:


> Could also be a circovirus:
> 
> http://www.biobest.co.uk/diagnostics/pbfd.html
> 
> Cynthia


The form of transmission looks more varied, so more appropriate for city pigeons. Destruction of the cells sounds, too, like a way that the beak could be lost without the effects we would expect canker to have.

John


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## Pidgey

We really need a picture, don't we? Sure would be nice if we could get someone on the ground at site with a digital camera and to rescue those birds.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

not to mention, giving the poor things a nice deep dish of warm liquidy baby bird formula that they can suck down, hopefully. Such a horrible situation cannot be ignored.


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## Feefo

> We really need a picture, don't we?


We do...apart from the scenarios that Dianne mentioned (collision or melting) or perhaps surgery or a bite? I cannot imagine how a pigeon's upper and lower mandible and cere could go missing at the same time. Parts of the upper and lower beak are trimmed off chickens to avoid cannibalism and I had imagined a similar mutilation to start with.

I don't think a pigeon with just a hole in its face could suck up food, it would need to be gavaged.

Cynthia


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## diane fortune

Hi John,
I went along with my camera today to try and get a picture, unfortunatley I could not find him or his group. I did however find another one. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest severity, this bird is only a 1, the original bird would be a 10 and the other birds in his group that I later saw, would be 5. Try to imagine the whole of the beak and surrounding area was black (with what I thought was dried blood) I am new to this site so I hope you get the picture OK------ sorry the picture wont go. I will try and send it to you


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## diane fortune

I hope this is OK


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## Skyeking

OMG...poor baby, what a horrible situation for this bird, I can imagine the suffering this bird is enduring.

...God please intervene for the sake of this bird, part of your Creation. I am so upset, this is all I can think of at this moment.


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## Camrron

Oh my God that poor bird. I cannot imagine a solution for that creature that would not be more compassionate than to euthanize him. Even with care I cannot see how it would survive. It's distressing to see a bird end up in such a sad and demoralized situation. 

Cameron


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## Birdmom4ever

This is a nightmare, but thank you for posting the picture because it clearly looks like a brutal injury.  There must be a special place in hell for someone who would do this to a bird.


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## John_D

It is either a horrific injury, or the most awful disease I can not even imagine.

I have sent this pic to PICAS, to see if THEY still think it was canker. I am sure it is not.

I think it should go also to the RSPCA, witrh a request to try to catch these poor birds and put them to sleep.

John


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## Feefo

That is absolutely awful Diane, even one pigeon affected makes me want to scream with despair.

Can you tell us where in Manchester this is so that we can put pressure on the RSPCA to do something? It isn't right that you should be dealing with this alone but we are so far away!

Cynthia


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## John_D

It is either a horrific injury, or the most awful disease I can not even imagine.

I have sent this pic to PICAS, to see if THEY still think it was canker. I am sure it is not.

I think it should go also to the RSPCA, witrh a request to try to catch these poor birds and put them to sleep.

Thank you, Diane, for going to the trouble to capture this on camera.

I will try to find a phone # for RSPCA now.

John


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## TAWhatley

How horrific! My heart goes out to you and these poor birds. This is just sickening. I do hope you can find help for these poor birds. 

Terry


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## Camrron

Right Terry, and help for the very sick person who is doing this. They belong in jail for what they have done.

Cameron.


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## Feefo

The fortunate thing is that the pigeon is unaware of the terrible condition it is. I just wish I could reach into the screen and draw it into my arms.

Diane, please try to catch it, I will do anything I can to help it survive. We also have to establish the cause and stop it.

The RSPCA are pathetic, all they seem to care about is publicity and donations. Perhaps if you could ensure publicity they would do something.

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Well...the coloniseing Trichomiasis does not always manifest as Canker of the Throat...

I have had many Pigeons and Doves who had no Throat involvement, but who instead had the illness occuring in unknown parts farther down.

I do not recall my Beakless Pigeon to have shown any Throat colonies...but, this was 1982 I recall ( not '83) and that is some while ago now for me to remember thatr detail particularly.


However, it was Trichomonais in one of it's many peculiar or surpriseing occupations, which had destroyed the root areas of her upper and lower Beak.

Possibly, Pigeons eating things where small abrasions of the nares or chin or mouth or corners of the mouth could occur...then drinking from common on-going and semi-evaporating and concentrating puddles or Bird Baths or what, where infected others also drink and which then infests the Water for all...

...could acquire colonizeing Trichomonads in their small facial-mouth abrasions, for the Trichomoniasis to begin 'there', while their Throat and further digestive system and other organs remained approximately or actually, practically, un-colonised by them.

That is my imagining for this scenario anyway...

That it is a function of what criteria govern the colonization sites in the reasoning or opportunism of the Trichomonads themselves, which will determine 'where' in or on the Bird, the colonization and hence illness then manifests.


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D

Fact is, we just don't know what it is. 

When pigeons (probably) are in crowded conditions in their colonies, it could be as you say, Phil. In this instance, with several birds, it sounds - unfortunately - more like an act of cruelty, and a recent one. I can't imagine those poor birds will be alive more than another day or two, but if it is a 'someone' then it has to be stopped.

We need an exact location now. I have spoken to the RSPCA and said I will try to get a location.

It may even be worth a call to the police. I know Manchester probably stretches their abililities with all the other villains, but no harm in trying.

John


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## Whitefeather

Diane, Cynthia & John,
This is such a horrific event going on. I am so sorry.  

I realize all is speculation at this point, but do you think some sick person might have put a few drops of some type of acid down in various places, just enough affect the beak when it touched the substance? 

If I could, I would hop the next plane to the UK to help out. This must be so exhausting for all of you. 

I pray this situation comes to an end swiftly.
God Bless you all & those dear sweet unfortunate & innocent pigeons that have become victims.

Cindy


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## Pidgey

My first thought, besides the most awful swoon of nausea than I've felt in years, was that its beak was shot off with a bullet but as I look again it'd take a shotgun or a very large bullet or even a quick dip into hydrofluoric acid. Whatever this was, it happened pretty quick rather than a progressive, debilitating disease because the pigeon has too good of posture to have been sick long enough with canker or anything else that would have done that. This looks very fast. And the idea that this is only a "1" on a scale of 1 to 10 is unimaginable.

I'm not even sure there's enough left of the lower mandible for the best prosthetic surgeon to deal with. As horrible to me as euthanization is, even I would consider it here and that's one hell of a long way for me to go.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

I can't get this off my mind. I am sick about what is happening.

Could someone have lured the pigeons by feeding them, grabbed them and used something like pliers to literally pull the beak off?

We all need to really say a prayer for these little fellows and if someone is doing it pray that they will stop.

Maggie


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## John_D

I expect Diane will post, but - anyway - she gave me an exact location. 

The RSPCA fella has said he will log my calls as a complaint and get an inspector out to the location. 

(I can understand to some extent their difficulty: they have to actually see one of these poor birds, and there is no guarantee that there will be one there tomorrow at all)

Diane has said that there has been some public outcry now, and the newspaper has taken it up and the police have also been notified. I fear it is already too late for these birds, but hopefully others may be spared a similar fate.

John


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## Whitefeather

John_D said:


> I expect Diane will post, but - anyway - she gave me an exact location.
> 
> The RSPCA fella has said he will log my calls as a complaint and get an inspector out to the location.
> 
> (I can understand to some extent their difficulty: they have to actually see one of these poor birds, and there is no guarantee that there will be one there tomorrow at all)
> 
> Diane has said that there has been some public outcry now, and the newspaper has taken it up and the police have also been notified. I fear it is already too late for these birds, but hopefully others may be spared a similar fate.
> 
> John


Thanks for the update John.

I noticed the blue bar looked to be affected somewhat as well. 
With the aid of a magnifying glass, it looks as if the cere is torn & hanging down. I was thinking it was a spot on the ground, but there doesn't appear to be any separation. There's also a black line across the top of the cere ending at the eye & the beak looks 'ragged'.

This is so sad. 

Cindy


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## birdboy12

Well when I was first reading the post I thought of it as like an owl or some other short beaked bird. But then when you said it had been more then one then I thought now way that many short beaked birds got out and stayed together.Maybe someone had cought them and cut the beaks like they do with chickens so they don`t fight.But if someone has done this to them I want to know what goes on in their head.What did these amazing birds do to them.They could have started to drink something that they thought was water.Then when they tasted it they stopped and they didn`t drink enough to kill them. But to slowly rot the beak away. I hope everything goes well.


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## Maggie-NC

Could the police review camera tapes and learn something? 

We probably won't be able to learn too much with the site going down tonight, but John, I know you'll stay on top of this. We are all so concerned.


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## diane fortune

Hi 
I'm new to this site, what do you mean by the 'site going down tonight' thanks
Diane


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## Pidgey

Probably scheduled server maintenance. It often means that we're going off the web for several hours.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Diane,

How much worse could it have been for you to rate the one in the picture as a "1"?

Pidgey


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## John_D

Well, Diane is close to where this is happening, so hopefully she will hear of any developments. I'll keep an eye on the online media, of course. 

(Manchester is around 280 miles from me)

John

PS Is there maintenance tonight? Guess that'll be about the time I get up tomorrow, UK time.


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## Birdmom4ever

The site doesn't go down; I think she meant when people sign off for the night and go to bed.

I'm just sick over this and I wish there were something I could do. I'm praying whoever did this will be stopped and no other pigeons harmed. I sure hope someone can catch these poor pigeons before they starve to death.


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## Birdmom4ever

Oops--that's true, the site does go down once in awhile for maintenance.


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## feralpigeon

Diane, I'm all at once sorry that you came upon the situation, appalled at the condition of the "better off" birds in the flock, and horrified that this was something that might have been deliberately inflicted on them by a human being. It is a huge relief to know that John and Cynthia are there to help you get some action going from the officials. I hope that whoever is responsible will be individually brought to justice, or if improper disposal
of chemicals by a company, I hope that both the company as an entity and the individuals are charged to the max. 

Would it be helpful for members to make calls or send emails to any of the officials involved? Please let us know how to do this if you think it might be helpful.

fp


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## diane fortune

It is very difficult to describe the difference but I'll try. The bird in the picture still has some 'roundness' at the front where the beak should be. The original birds 'face' seemed concave. It was a big black mess thats why I couldn't see the tongue until he tried to eat, but I think the tongue was there all the time. It was like a mangled hole and looked wet. Its chest was wet and originally I assumed it was blackened blood. The bird in the picture looks very very well compared to the first one. The only other way to explain how bad it was is to tell you that I couldn't stop crying. I'v not cried like that for a very long time.


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## TAWhatley

I don't think there is any site maintenance planned for tonight .. Pigeon-Talk should be up as it usually is .. 24/7.

Terry


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## Pidgey

diane fortune said:


> The only other way to explain how bad it was is to tell you that I couldn't stop crying. I'v not cried like that for a very long time.


Diane, 

You weren't the only one.

Pidgey


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## John_D

Diane - 

If there's any organization I can contact tomorrow to add numbers to whatever concerns are being raised, let me know.

Whether the RSPCA inspector will turn out - and see any of these birds - remains to be seen.

Thank you for your updates and info, and caring enough to tell us about all this

John


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## Coolpigeon

That is horrible. It is just terrible. It looks like he is going to die.


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## Pidgey

I see where Lady Tarheel got it now--at the top of the forums when you're on something like the "General Discussions" page, there is an announcement by Googull:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/announcement.php?f=5

that says that we're going down at 5:00 PM Pacific and will be down for backup and maintenance till the following day (no time given).

Pidgey


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## Camrron

It is inconceivable that the beaks have gradually worn down, dissolved or were eaten by parasites to the point of there being birds still out and about trying to eat etc as if it was just another day. I would say it's impossible. Those injuries are the result of a brutal and traumatic injury caused by a person with a real problem. Maggie is right. Those beaks were snipped off by pliers plain and simple and the authorities need to be contacted ASAP. I am glad there is some media attention. Someone will surely come forward with the name of the person who is doing this and that will be that. End of story, jail time.

Cameron


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## Whitefeather

Camrron said:


> *Those injuries are the result of a brutal and traumatic injury caused by a person with a real problem. Cindy is right. Those beaks that were snipped off by pliers plain and simple* and the authorities need to be contacted ASAP.
> Cameron


That was Maggie's statement Cameron, not mine.  

Cindy


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## Maggie-NC

Well, I'm glad Bigbird and Googull didn't single me out. For a minute there I thought I was the only one getting the message.

Diane, it is hard not to cry over this.

Maggie


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## dnrslucky1

OMG! 
I like to log on and see whats been happening, but many times I feel so depressed afterward! This is one of thos times! I think of everything I do for Squidget and then I read that people do and cause these types of things! I am very sad right now. Sorry!

Denise


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## Camrron

Sorry Cindy, I edited my post with the correction. My mistake.

Cam.


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## Pidgey

Denise,

Your heart weighs in heavily in the balance of good versus evil in this world. If it weren't for folks like you, there would be no hope.

Pidgey


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## TAWhatley

Pidgey said:


> I see where Lady Tarheel got it now--at the top of the forums when you're on something like the "General Discussions" page, there is an announcement by Googull:
> 
> http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/announcement.php?f=5
> 
> that says that we're going down at 5:00 PM Pacific and will be down for backup and maintenance till the following day (no time given).
> 
> Pidgey


Thanks folks! Sorry I missed the announcement .. guess we'd better hurry up .. it's almost 5 PM.

Terry


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## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> My first thought, besides the most awful swoon of nausea than I've felt in years, was that its beak was shot off with a bullet but as I look again it'd take a shotgun or a very large bullet or even a quick dip into hydrofluoric acid. Whatever this was, it happened pretty quick rather than a progressive, debilitating disease because the pigeon has too good of posture to have been sick long enough with canker or anything else that would have done that. This looks very fast. And the idea that this is only a "1" on a scale of 1 to 10 is unimaginable.
> 
> I'm not even sure there's enough left of the lower mandible for the best prosthetic surgeon to deal with. As horrible to me as euthanization is, even I would consider it here and that's one hell of a long way for me to go.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, all...


My Pigeon when I first saw her, was actively trying to graze. She was somewhat disheveled from however long of non preeing, and her Beak, while still 'there', was about to fall off. The top was loose and dangleing somewhat to one side, and the bottom to the other side and pointing down, with only some little skin remaining about the swollen root areas of the infection, to hold either of them there at all...

My Vet at the time, gently completed their removal in seconds, and did a little debride and stitch I think, and, all healed nicely and soon.

She was flying when I first saw her , had flown in from who knows where with the other ferals, and it took me a while to get her caught, since though 'light' she was wiley and an able flier who I could not hope to catch by stealth or by hand or chaseing her or tempting her with Seeds and hands poised to grab her.

I got her finally, patiently, by useing a Box-stick-and-string to trap her when she went after the Seeds the Box was poised over.

A few days more on her own, which she may well have had in her, and she could well have been Beakless, just like this one is...while still actively trying to graze and forrage, and flying decently for the short hauls and take offs anyway...

Possible, for these Birds, bits of semi dry breaad or other amenible sizes and textures, or larger Seeeds or Peanuts even tossed there for them, are things they might actually be able to 'peck' or eat somehow, even with no Beak, if they have already learned how, which would slow their rate of starvation some little bit anyway, and bide them the kind of time we are implicitly hearing about, for them to still be alilve at all.


However, one thing I am worried about with them -

Is that if the 'Authorities' in any guise, elect to act and to become involved and to capture these Birds, I imagine the Birds will be perfunctorily euthenized to end the 'problem', without particular evaluation of their illness or injury...and thus, with no humane or kindly treatment of their sorry ills.


Where, if they are gathered somehow and or acquired by an able and kind rehabber or patient amateur, or private party who is associated with either, then, their Lives might be spared, their injury/illness treated and healed, no 'Public Health' operatives being obliged to euthenize them for sanitation sake and to thwart spread of the illness...and, they can then at liesure, learn to 'peck' in new ways, become able to self feed effectively as mine did, and be happy ever after...even if requireing a Beak posessing preening-buddy to help them preen and to maintain their Feathers to be in nice smooth form...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Dianne and all, 

Your picture shows a pigeon that is completely ruined, it will have no way to survive on it's own or without long term care 24/7 around the clock. That is if it would survive in the long run. A bird like this would never be able to eat or drink on it's own. Such a sad picture and to think there are more like this you've seen. 

I agree with Pidgey, that this has to be a somewhat recent injury in order for the bird to be this "healthy" appearing and still alive. I don't know what caused this, or even if it was an act of cruelty by humans...we'll probably never know. I also agree that the only humane thing to do would be to euthanize the pigeon(s) if they can be caught. An animal shouldn't have to endure such indignities and suffering like that.


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## Victor

*It absolutely is just horrible that some monster(s) would do such an ungodly act on a poor pigeon, or harm and torture to any poor animal for that matter. 

My grandson Alex came home from school and he asked me what was new on pigeon talk. I told him I had not been on very much because I have been busy with chores that had been stacking up. He said he was going to get on (pigeon talk) and do some looking and he found the horrible story and the sad picture of the beakless pigeon. He called me over to look and asked me why would someone do that to a pigeon. It was not an easy task believe me. We ended up reading the rest of the posts together and then he gave me a hug and told me it would be alright. I know he sensed my emotions. 

To senseless mame a poor bird to the point that it cannot eat,drink,preen itself, or just basically be a pigeon is beyond comprehension.Can a human being be that insensitive, that uncaring, that HATEFUL to an innocent pigeon who for the most part, learn to co-exist and trust us...the human race?

It is bad enough that there are those that will end the life of a pigeon for "sport" but this...?

The picture is hard to readily dismiss from ones mind. The people resonsible for this must be some really sick, sadistic beings (and I use that meaning in an "appropriate" manner) that get a thrill at ruining an innocent life.As if feral pigeons didn't have a bad enough life already. *


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## Feefo

This has broken my heart. I wanted it to be an illness that had caused the damage or an accident because we could cope with that but now I believe that Maggie is spot- on and that this was adeliberate act and the result of a sick society and anti-pigeon publicity. 

Sadly there are almost daily incidents of sadistic attacks on animals these days.

Cynthia


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## kittypaws

*I'm sickened*

by the photo Diane posted - how on earth is that poor creature alive and as she advises, he is a better looking one of the bunch.

I hate to say this but Manchester was very, very cold last night and I hope that some of these poor creatures passed away in the night so that they don' have to suffer anymore. 

RSPCA ( Royal Society for the Prevention of _Cruelty to Animals_) I hope attend today as they said they would. I have had mixed responses from the RSPCA - some good and some bad but this delberate act of cruelty needs investigation right now and they need to be on the spot, catching the afflicted birds and then, with the help of the Police which every division is supposed to have a WLO ( Wildlife Liasion Officer) monitoring the area for these despicable b*"@*$ds ( sorry!) that are doing this.

Diane, my heart goes out to you - how you have had to suffer seeing these poor birds first hand.

I have questions:-

1. I am assuming this has only just happened as it would appear that the RSPCA have only just heard plus there is only just some local some media interest.
2. The birds with the blackened faces - Could these have been cauterised by these sick persons or maybe it is just necropsy of the tissue
3. Why, of why, would someone do this?
4. John, is there anything PICAS can do. I have spoken to Emma Haskell before and she is very helpful - so is Guy - I am wondering if they can't help in the rescue mission of these birds ( I know its easy for me to say but I am too far away in London).

That image will just crowd my thoughts today and I pray that some action will be taken today in the very least that some of the afflicted birds can be cuaght and treated/euthanased accordingly.

If God is watching, may he deal with the perpetrators justly and ease the suffering of those poor birds. 

If I can e-mail anyone ( RSPCA, local Manchester newspapers then let me know)

Tania


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## pdpbison

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Dianne and all,
> 
> Your picture shows a pigeon that is completely ruined, it will have no way to survive on it's own or without long term care 24/7 around the clock. That is if it would survive in the long run. A bird like this would never be able to eat or drink on it's own. Such a sad picture and to think there are more like this you've seen.
> 
> I agree with Pidgey, that this has to be a somewhat recent injury in order for the bird to be this "healthy" appearing and still alive. I don't know what caused this, or even if it was an act of cruelty by humans...we'll probably never know. I also agree that the only humane thing to do would be to euthanize the pigeon(s) if they can be caught. An animal shouldn't have to endure such indignities and suffering like that.



Hi Brad,


Please read my three posts already, which occur so far in this thread...


Others too?

Please?

Read them?


Love... 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison

Hi all, 


The dark moist of the ajascent face feathers and area of Breast feathers where a nod of chin touching their Breat can happen, or a mouth fallen drip would end up landing, could well be from the oose of infected exuperations and moisture, both of the underlieing infection, and some saliva moisture and dirty mough wicking from pecking-eating ( or trying to) close on the ground, then nodding to their Breast...and or mere dirt-grunge also from trying to eat or peck this way, especially if trying to eat oily bits of fried fish batter, fried potato pieces or other fast food discards...

Pigeons can certainly go a long time sometimes, still able to fly, and still trying to forrage, on almost no food or no food at all, if they are conservative about it, so long as they manage to drink something now and then...and...what a week ago was still a margainal Beak able to peck well enough to still eat with it, falling off a few days ago possibly, by now being a no-more-Beak at all for having looened too much and become detatched from it's foundation being eaten just that much criitically more away...

A Pigeon whose Beak can come off from localized process of Trichomona infection, could very well live long enough 'after' the Beak entire has fallen off, for his picture to be taken showing him Beak-less, or, for his Life to still be saved.

It does not mean per-se that his throat will forbid food being swallowed of food from constriction or occulating lesions or that the Trichomona infection was other than localised to the mandible base and mouth sides, as to have eaten the root or basal area of his respesctive mandibles, to where they fail structurally, turn to infected mush, leaving only some weak, and infected bits of outer skin to retain them for at best, only a little time more till the Beak as such, is moved by normal routines, or by the ird shaking his Head as they can do, side to side, as if wishing to expell something or to try and make something feel right, for it to then, fall off completely...

I believe this model of the scenario must not be overlooked as highly probable, and, if these Birds may be captured, I believe the prognosis is good.

Please, do not give up on these Birds, even if at first glance all seems to hopeless for them...


A Beakless Pigeon can indeed learn to eat and drink quite well...and, to have a full and happy Life in all ways, but for want of pecking-with-a-Beak, and preening...


Best wishes...


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi Phil, 

I just re-read your posts, sorry sometimes I skip through a long thread when pressed for time.

That is quite amazing that you were able to work with a pigeon that lost it's beak. How did this story end though...you didn't really say. Was she released back to the wild and you never saw her again or was just kept and looked after for the rest of her life?

All I know is that a bird's beak is it's livelihood. A beak is pretty much the same as our teeth, hands and lips. It's a comb, a sensory organ and a multi-function tool. Without a beak, a bird is pretty much helpless. 

I can't imagine a bird like that living long in the wild even after if was rehabilitated and the injury site healed. What about the tongue, did the bird you found in 1982 have a tongue or did it dry up and die? 

Please understand that I'm not Dr. Death here, but I do think there are times were euthanasia is necessary and really the kindest thing to do. I'm not suggesting that these birds shouldn't be assessed first if they could be caught, but I don't see a positive outcome is all.


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## John_D

kittypaws said:


> John, is there anything PICAS can do. I have spoken to Emma Haskell before and she is very helpful - so is Guy - I am wondering if they can't help in the rescue mission of these birds ( I know its easy for me to say but I am too far away in London)


Tania -

I have had quite a bit of email correspondence with Emma yesterday, which she has referred on to Guy. I sent the pic and explained that we are not talking an isolated case but several birds in much the same state, but Emma reports that Guy was still convinced it was Trichomoniasis.

It seems pretty obvious to me, now, that though a bird could end up this bad once in a while, the chances of several birds in the same area getting even near to this stage through disease over a period without succumbing to starvation or dehydration much earlier are about zero.

PICAS has actually been involved with the council at Middleton (Gtr Manchester) fairly recently about the issue of them wanting to use hawks to deter the pigeons. They are very anti-pigeon there, sad to say.

Whilst Guy and team do a grand job where they are permitted to do so, they are, foremost, advisors on humane pigeon control, and not rehabbers. So (though I stand to be corrected) I don't think that as an organization they have the in depth knowledge of pigeon ailments to make a judgement in this case.

John


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## pdpbison

Hi Brad,


My Bird, a Hen I felt...whom I had named 'Okimo', did very well, became the picture of Health and bearing...was sweet tempered, easy, friendly with us, enjoyed being finger-preened, was sociable, and normal in every way except for having no Beak.

Her mouth and face were not in any way ugly or unsettleing, once one accepted the initial novelty of no Beak being there...in fact, everyone who saw her thought her face was actually very sweet and pretty, and, in it's way, it was! - she seemed as perfect as if she represented a rare and unexpected Species of Bird, which had escewed their Beaks merely as some minor matter of preference, while retaining all other dignities and bearing and aesthetic amenities for themselves. She had simply a small 'mouth' of sorts, which was defined by fine face feathers.

I would not expect a Beakless Pigeon to fare well in the wilds! - and I never considered in any way, to ever release her back to her feral World.

However, we did let her fly as she pleased! 

Somehow different than a 'release', because she lived 'with' us, and was socialised after her recovery, to my own flock at the time, and to us...and they all flew every day...so we let her fly too.

I would be very reluctant to do that now, and in fact, I would not risk it at all with a Beakless Pigeon. 

But, she would fly as she liked by day with my other Pigeons ( they departed from their Aviary when I opend it's door in the mornings, and return to it at dusk were I would close it up for them), and she would come home when they did, or earlier if she liked, and in her case, she would come and go, from or back into the house through the bathroom window, as the bathroom was 'hers', was her exclusive 'Aviary', and, I built a little landing shelf for her, inside and outside the window to make that easy for her.

She died from being pecked to death, when oweing to a complicated household emergency, she was hastily obliged to have two other large Pigeons share her bathroom with her, with it's window 'closed'.

Had the window been 'open' she, or the other two Pigeons, or all three would have gone out and all would have been fine...but some of the emergency was that we could let no on 'out' and were bringing the normally outside in their Aviary ones 'in', and putting some here and some there...(someone was shooting them in their Aviary, as well as shooting them so they flew home shot...) 


Otherwise, I see no reason why 'Okimo' should not have lived another five, or ten or fifteen years, or whatever her otherwise natural potential for longevity would have been.


She ate well, was easy to care for, with but the small deference of useing larger Seeds mostly, and or supplying little made-food 'balls' of suitable size, of various ingredients which she would eat on her own just fine with the seeds.

Her tongue stuck out somewhat, but I do not recall it drying out...though I think she used to move it in and out to keep it moistened.

I am sorry to have to remember to you such a terrible ending to so brave and otherwise happy and unique and pretty Pigeon...especially too since her death was my fault.

I had no prior experience to suppose a Pigeon would be so mean to another Pigeon.

The Pigeon who killed her, WAS a very 'mean' and angry Pigeon. He had been someone's "pet" for years, always confined to a small cage...never got to fly...was given to me by our Vet when the people dumped him with the Vet to get rid of him...and, while he was a kind and tender Mate to his Hen, and to the many beautiful Babys they made and raised splendidly, he was 'mean' to us people, and mean to other Birds in small ways...

I just had no idea at the time, that his meanness could or would be so determined or terrible. I had only seen it otherwise with him chasing other Pigeons in trotting after them merely, never flying after anyone, and just pecking and then his leaving off, like a territory thing merely, and never where it had amounted to anything...


Deep breath...

And...

Love,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feefo

This has happened in Manchester before 

http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/82/82756_thug_hacks_off_pigeons_beak.html

Cynthia


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## John_D

I'm currently trying to elicit info from the Gt Manchester Police as to whether someone is actually dealing with it - and whether or not they have tied it up with that earlier case.

John


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## Pidgey

Phil,

After looking at the photo and asking a question of Diane, I think the extent of the birds' injuries are such that it would be comparable on a human face of taking a line from the bridge of the nose down and backward to the base of the lower mandible. I don't think there is anything left of the lower mandible at all. I think a bird like that could live being tube-fed and hand preened the rest of its life if you could find a person willing to do that but it's not just one--it's several. 

I commend you for what you did for the one you had but realistically in this case I doubt that anyone is going to step forward in that area to do it. Even if we had an active member in that area, I wouldn't expect them to take on a chore of that magnitude. And Heaven only knows what could happen if the likely perpetrator found out that someone was helping the birds that he was attempting to destroy. I believe this is a person and not a disease and if that is correct, then this person has a blinding rage that is not rational. 

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

cyro51 said:


> This has happened in Manchester before
> 
> http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/82/82756_thug_hacks_off_pigeons_beak.html
> 
> Cynthia


This is unthinkable, just can't believe that this took place on a public vehicle and the person was able to continue on his day without being apprehended and incarcerated. Do the police have any leads on this individual? Was there any previous investigation? Did this stop completely and now just begin anew again? Is there somewhere to send emails to place pressure on either the RSPCA or local police to allocate the necessary manpower to apprehend this individual.

That was good sleuthing Cynthia, and Maggie, good powers of observation. I guess I just couldn't imagine someone ripping a beak off so it seemed just not plausible, but you were right sad to say.

I think if these birds are able to survive, just if, as they don't seem to be in the area at subsequent visits, it would be an act of kindness to euthanize. I'm not an advocate of this except in extreme circumstances, this certainly being in this category. Whatever this sick person didn't do to them, they would certainly become prey to other animals or rejected by their own.

fp


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## Maggie-NC

After reading the article Cynthia found, I wonder if this person has been incarcerated during this period and is now out and starting up again. To do that to a pigeon with people looking on is really scary. 

Maggie


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## pigeonmama

Lady Tarheel said:


> After reading the article Cynthia found, I wonder if this person has been incarcerated during this period and is now out and starting up again. To do that to a pigeon with people looking on is really scary.
> 
> Maggie


Wish I had been lucky enough to be on that bus. I would have very happily removed some of this "monster's' bodily parts, bare handed.
Daryl


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## naturegirl

OH MY GOD! I seen the pic of the pigeon and that is honestly the first time I have cried over a pic before. My daughter asked me what was wrong and I showed her. That poor bird, I wish I could help in some way or another. I literally sickens me to see that, even though I know it may be a part of nature it doesn't mean it doesn't pull at the heart strings and turns into total heart break.I have never seen anything so awful before. I hope I never have experience this myself as I wouldn't even know where to start. God help this poor bird.


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## rialize

pigeonmama said:


> Wish I had been lucky enough to be on that bus. I would have very happily removed some of this "monster's' bodily parts, bare handed.
> Daryl


Well said. I would have done the same thing.

This really is a sickening case. If I were closer, or maybe a little older, I'd be over there in a jip to help. Perhaps the birds need to be evaluated, one by one, if possible - depending on how severe each individual bird is, some might be able to be placed in homes that can care for a needy pigeon.

Dianne, you're a brave person. I think we're all very grateful for the fact that you took the time to notice, pay attention, and are now doing everything you can to help them. Many thanks to everybody else who is involved, and helping.

If I can do anything to help - perhaps donations will be needed to fund the process of catching and caring for the affected birds - I'll be very willing to go through with it.


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## John_D

Diane sent this article from today's local newspaper.

I will try to get the reporter tomorrow (s/he is not there now) and make them aware of the previous occurrences which Cynthia unearthed. I will attempt to contact the Wildlife Liasion officer in the police this evening (he is on night duty this week) with the same info.

Fortunate that we have Diane right there, and Cynthia finding out info in some way that certainly eluded me!

John


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## TAWhatley

I think the RSPCA spokesperson is suffering from a severe case of rectal cranial inversion but perhaps s/he is just experiencing some disease that comes with age ... it's hard to say 

Terry


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## Feefo

If any of the mutilated birds can have some quality of life despite their horrific injuries I would look after them if I was allowed to but after Phil's experience I don't think that they could go in the aviary with "beaked" birds because they could be too vulnerable.

I am not afraid of the person that did it though I would be absolutely terrified for my pigeons if I lived in that area. I believe that Pidgey is right in his assessment of the person. The mutilations (happened in Rochdale where there was an arson attack on a loft a few weeks ago...I believe that this is one of a series of attacks and that the police know who it is but don't have the evidence. Perhaps it was the same person but there have been 8 arson attacks on lofts across the country in the last year.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

John that information just turned up in a google search for "pigeons Manchester beaks"....I haven't had the heart to do a wider search.

As some are racers there could be a link between the mutilations and the arson.

Apparently someone also tried to set fire to someone's pet pony nearby...so we have 100 pigeons killed in an arson attack...a horrific attack on a pony...mutilated pigeons... all within the same area in a matter of weeks and the RSPCA have not seen any signs of animal cruelty! Terry you are so right!

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/199/199331_arsonists_kill_100_prize_pigeons.html

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

cyro51 said:


> This has happened in Manchester before
> 
> http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/82/82756_thug_hacks_off_pigeons_beak.html
> 
> Cynthia



Hi Cynthia,


Good God...

Maybe that is it after all...

I am at a loss for words...this would be just too ghastly.


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## pdpbison

Pidgey said:


> Phil,
> 
> After looking at the photo and asking a question of Diane, I think the extent of the birds' injuries are such that it would be comparable on a human face of taking a line from the bridge of the nose down and backward to the base of the lower mandible. I don't think there is anything left of the lower mandible at all. I think a bird like that could live being tube-fed and hand preened the rest of its life if you could find a person willing to do that but it's not just one--it's several.
> 
> I commend you for what you did for the one you had but realistically in this case I doubt that anyone is going to step forward in that area to do it. Even if we had an active member in that area, I wouldn't expect them to take on a chore of that magnitude. And Heaven only knows what could happen if the likely perpetrator found out that someone was helping the birds that he was attempting to destroy. I believe this is a person and not a disease and if that is correct, then this person has a blinding rage that is not rational.
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 


Well...yes...if someone were doing this to them...

And if the entire lower mandible were ripped off along with whatever that would come off with the upper Beak...

Then yes, the Pigeon would never be able to self-feed, nor would they be able to attain an appearance anyone could call 'pretty'...

It would simply be too horrible if it is this scenario, and, I hate to imagine it, but, it is sounding like it is 'this' scenario, and not the one I was proposeing, or hopeing that it was...

I am so sorry...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Feather

Hello Diane,

When I read your post, my heart sank. Then when I read the part about there being several pigeons with no beaks. I knew there was someone pretty dangerous out there. It looks like we have a mass murderer on our hands here. This is like a horrable dream. Do you have a problem with an over population of pigeons in that area? I'm just trying to imagine what in the world would cause this sort of action.

Pidgey do you have a gun? I don't but I have a big stick.

Feather


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## kittypaws

*John/Cynthia/Diane*

Well done for getting so far with this - I'm with most people on this and I don't think it's a disease - it sounds like it is a "someone" who is very sick and very twisted. 

I was wondering how they ( the sicko) would have caught them if feral - we all know that most birds in a flock will take flight when approached in fact all will. It is only on the odd occassion that there is grounded bird- but as the newspaper article says some have rings so it sounds as though they are from a loft, have been mutilated and then left in Middleton. 

John - re PICAS - I know - I was just so angry and upset and wanted to post this morning before work. Emma has advised me previously that she would help if she could with trapped birds which is a lot different to sick or injured birds.... I guess I just felt so desperate and useless.

When the article said that a memeber of the public saw some of the pigeons huddled under the bench, why on earth didn't they call the RSPCA out or why didn't anyone try and catch them - they sound like they would have been easy to catch poor little things. Also the RSPCA comment about it being a disease - I don't think so...... they are sitting on million of pounds ( yes really - I read about 10 years ago they had 60 million in the bank - that could be wrong of course but I think it is probably the biggest animal charity in the UK and are left loads of legacies from little old ladies who loved cats!) of which they could be using some of that to survey or investigate this henious crime to these poor creatures. They do a lot of good I must say but not enough for the pigeon. 

Again Manchester is very cold tonight and I can't help thinking about those poor babies - sorry everyone I now I am going on but its so dreadful. 

I can't even look at that picture anymore it has so upset me and I am wondering what the fate of that little one is now - is he still alive? 

I guess one good thing is that the newspaper has an article on it highlighting the situation and hopefully the RSPCA have attended today to see what they could do to help these poor mites. Maybe some pigeon loving folk in Manchester will be moved to try and capture the afflicted birds.

John/Diane - do we know if the RSPCA attended today?

Very angry and distressed of UK, Tania x


----------



## Feather

Forget the stick.....I just saw the picture.....I need a gun!

Feather


----------



## naturegirl

Excuse my French but what the Hell is this world coming to? Someone needs to be caught and severly punished for all these crimes on these animals. What have they done to the evil Bas$*&d that did this to them? Saddens me to death.


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## Feefo

Diane 

Is there any news on what has happened to the poor birds? Has anyone gathered them up?

Cynthia


----------



## Lin Hansen

This situation is simply unbelieveable....and that picture....I don't think I've ever seen a picture that was harder to look at. Those poor, poor birds. It's hard to believe that a person or persons could be capable of such cruelty.

Diane, Cynthia, John and everyone else, thanks for trying to get to the bottom of this situation and for keeping us all informed.

It all just leaves me speechless....I just don't know what else to say.....

Linda


----------



## Birdmom4ever

I am sickened and appalled beyond words. The previous incident of a man seen cutting off pigeons' beaks and the arson attack on a loft in the same area are extremely disturbing. Whoever is doing this is dangerous and must be apprehended. People who do this sort of thing to animals frequently move on to committing heinous crimes against humans. I pray he or they will be stopped. 

Thanks to all of you in the U.K. who are trying to help. Godspeed.


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## Camrron

You are absolutely right about that Birdmom. About your comments that people who harm animals often also harm people. It is a well documented fact and is probably the most important reason, besides the horrors being unleashed on pigeons, to apprehend this individual. This is a very dangerous person indeed.

I noticed the article stated some of the pigeons were banded. If this is the case then those bands can be traced back to the owner and loft they came from. The person who is doing this is surely nearby, possibly even in the same building and may even likely be known by the birder who's birds were hurt. Someone in that town has had their flock released on them and will know something that the police can key in on. The bands must be collected and checked.

The spokeperson for the RSPCA meanwhile is just not educated on pigeons or even birds in general. I can well imagine they would just like this problem to go away without incident. They are the last people who should be catching these birds or it will all be just swept under the rug. I wish I were there. I would go out and get those poor birds myself without any hesitation whatsoever and check and record each band for myself.

Cameron.


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## feralpigeon

This was my thought as well, that an individual who is so divorced from their emotions that they can coldly and sadistically do this to animals will surely escalate to humans when there is no longer a big enough charge for them with torturing animals. I think this is beyond the domain equivalent of a Humane Society in any country, this is truly a police matter, even if the police believe that it is not worthy of their time right now.

fp


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## diane fortune

To John and all the people who have responded to this.

From all the responses I think its clear that everybody Knows a lot about pigeons, I do not. I registered on this web site because I thought I had to to be able ask my question. I had searched and searched for information, I sent emails to sanctuarys and did not even get a reply. When I found this site I was elated. I am not an expert on pigeons I am just somebody that cannot tolerate seeing an animal suffering. I cannot tolerate animal cruelty. I tell you this because I dont want you to think I have been deliberatley deceiving you. The original bird was so badly 'injured' that it broke my heart. I did the first thing that I thought would help, phone the RSPCA. (take note KITTYPAWS) I had no reason to not have faith in them, that was what they did wasn't it, rescued animals in disdress, NO WAY!!!!! I phoned them twice in the same afternoon. My husband wanted to phone them to tell them in no uncertain terms what he thought of them. I had to stop him as calls may be recorded and I think we would have got in trouble! (he tends to say what he thinks)
Anyway, now I have 'come clean' I have a query that may or not be relevant.
If I'm not mistaken, all the birds that I saw were slightly different from the other ones who were healthy. If you look on my picture there is a vast difference between the two birds, (apart from the beak of course) I think all the birds that were missing their beaks were dark grey going on black. They had white feathers too, kind of speckled. A couple of them had long white plumes going to their tail. Is this a different kind of pigeon? 

Diane


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## pdpbison

Hi Diane, 


The European Rock Dove, also known as the 'Columbia Liva', forms the basis of a great many variations of both form and color and size, of what otherwise are called Pigeons.

There are of course other in fact many other Species of 'Pigeons' and Doves, who, as entirely Wild Creatures, remain quite shy, and are generally not likely to be found in Urban settings socializeing with the 'Liva' Pigeons...or, at least not in City Squares.

So, the short answer to your wondering about color and possibly some small differences in scale or silohuete, is that these are all the same Species of Pigeon, within which really quite astounding variations are possible, bred, and known...of far greater variety than one would see in any one urban place of feral Pigeon gatherings.

I do not know whether you have had time to read the entire thread here which your initial query started, but you have gathered I am sure how outraged and hurt we all are to even imagine such injured Birds academically, let along, that they should exist in reality.

More intolerable yet, that they may have been made to exist like this because of a madman's creulty to them.

Worse, on top of all that, that the aid they should be getting, and the public outrage which should mobilize compeetant practioners to offer their services TO aid them, and to provide the medical attentions to evaluate them individually for their treatment and in some cases, possible recovery even if sans Beaks...that such aid or news of it, still has not come about.

Really, too...here certainly, there is no city, county, state or federal government agency who could be expected to act in the Bird's benifit to help them if something like this were to happen here.

And likely, it will fall to some private persons to both carefully capture these effected Pigeons, and, to co-ordinate their removal with their reception by some lay or private re-habber or possibly, some order of amenible and sufficiently experienced Veterinarian to provide them the kind of deference they will need if they are able to have a prognosis even favorable for Life at all, and, it is possible that some may.

At any rate, we are deeply sorry we are all so far away, and have no means to arrive and do something to capture and help these Birds.

I hope you can find some persons or private organizations who could or will, and soon...

The kind of immediate care, the kind of careful evaluation, and the kind of potentially surgical remediation or corrective wound management aid, and the kind of medical insight these Pigeons certainly need, involves particulars which would make it very difficult for a newcomer to such things, to manage...

Anyway...

Hopeing to hear of some ray of hope for them...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## John_D

I was able to speak with the reporter who did the local newspaper story which Diane kindly scanned for us to see.

I, too, had a go about the RSPCA's ignorance, as exampled by their comment in the article. I explained best as I could about the infinitesimal chance of a 'disease' affecting maybe 15 pigeons to that extent, coincidentally in the same area at the same time, and how the damage was just as described in the witnessed attack on a pigeon 3 years before.

Anyway, she was not aware of the earlier instances of attacks on pigeons (as per Cynthia's findings), so was somewhat interested to hear about it. I emailed her the link, and also the pic which Diane took. 

I said, I had not been able to talk to the wildlife officer in the police, who did not call me back when I eventually left a message after getting just an answerphone continually.

She took the officers name and collar number (or 'badge number'), and also said she would get onto the RSPCA to find out if they had actually done any investigating at all.

Oh, I threw in the view expressed here about sadists like that often going on to harm people, too - like, it could be someone's child next. And, heck, it could be!

Let's hope that she is interested enough - and permitted - to stir up some action here!

John


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## feralpigeon

Hi John,

That was a good thought to engage the reporter who wrote the first article on the incident a few years back. Seems like there's more than enough verifiable info for a follow up story, hopefully she'll put one together.

Maybe the RSPCA's love of publicity will work in reverse here--that they won't want negative publicity and will find the motivation to get off their duff and do something to help.

fp


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## Feefo

Hi Diane,

The steps that you took were the right ones, compassionate and sensible, it is the RSPCA that as usual failed in their duty. Had it been swans that were affected that way the RSPCA would have been out en-masse, all jostling for the publicity and photo opportunity.

All of us regard you as an extremely compassionate person who has had to deal with a living nightmare

Kittypaws’ comment was directed at the person who was interviewed by the papers and who mentioned that he had spotted an injured pigeon but had done nothing at all to help it or to bring the situation to the attention of anyone that could help. That attitude is sadly so common when it comes to pigeons. 

We need to know if the pigeons are still there and alive so that we can decide what to do about them.

Cynthia


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## Poulette

My God, this picture is so hard to look at, it makes me feel sick... but it seems so... unatural. How can a bird survive such a violent traumatism? It's just horrible.

Suz.


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## Nooti

Sorry, am coming late into this thread. Have been ill for the last twelve months and missed an awful lot. Got a phone call from Laura my vet to say John had been in touch. Wish I'd known this yesterday, have just spent the last two days in Manchester and could have gone to have a look.
Am back home now and weather has closed in badly. We have had snow blizzards - Manchester Airport was closed yesterday afternoon, and snow has settled here in Blackburn. Unfortunately it is too dangerous now to trek out there in these conditions, last I heard M6 andM56 was chocker with snow, freezing fog, multiple crashes etc.
The situation may be differnet in the morning though. Snow here does not tend to linger.


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## Birdmom4ever

From Diane's description of the pigeons is seems possible these were domestic pigeons someone had or stole, which would explain how that monster was able to brutalize a number of them. 

Very disappointing about the RSPCA's lack of response. Getting the media's attention seems the best bet at this point for raising public outcry. Thank you John, Cynthia and everyone else in the U.K. who is sounding the alarm. It infuriates me that authorities are apparently ignoring this because "they're just pigeons."


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## mr squeaks

THANK YOU, JOHN!!!

I sure hope something can be done and SOON!

Nooti, hope you are feeling better and able to "join" us again!


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## TAWhatley

Helen,

It's sooooooo good to see you post here again. I'm very sorry for your very long illness and do hope you are getting better. If anybody can tell what's been done or happened to these poor pigeons, it is certainly you.

Terry


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## Whitefeather

How wonderful to see you posting once again Helen.  
You have truly been missed. 

Sorry to hear you have been ill. Hope your recovery is going well.

Cindy


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## Feefo

Great to hear from you again Helen, I have really missed your expertise!

Another of our Manchester members (Lesley) will have a look at the situation tomorrow and see what she can do, but the bad weather usually keeps even the pigeons "indoors". 

What really worries me is that this is unlikely to be a "one off" situation..we have a psychopath out there and he is likely to strike again (sorry if that sounds melodramatic).

Cynthia


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## Nooti

Thanks folks............ Been a long time, nice to know you lot still remember me! Recovery is slooooow....... was advised could take two years. I caught a viral infection which put me bed bound and I lost my job through it. Then I went down with post viral ME and it's a real struggle sometimes just to whip up enthusiasm.  Heck..... Alan and I are getting married in 90 days time and I've only got my dress, not even sent out the invites or arranged anything else. If I don't grab some energy from somewhere the church'll be empty on the big day and I'll be dragging two strangers in off the street as witnesses!! lol
Back to the topic in hand. If someone else can check out the situation in Manchester and if any can be caught I am happy to collect and take them to Laura. She'll be available at any hour even over the weekend.


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## kittypaws

*Sorry Diane*

Diane,

I never mean't you when I said about "why didn't someone phone the RSPCA" -I know you did and you got a negative response. As Cynthia said I mean't the person in the article who said they and others had seen the birds previously.

Of course if the RSPCA are apathetic about this then it makes me mad too!!  I am not a staunch supporter of theirs. I have been given lousy advice before regarding pigeons ( vulnerable baby situations - I am wiser now), I have taken birds to them thinking they would help when all they could do was euthanase ( I know better now again) and I phoned about a sick swan which they never came out to and it died ( they apologised - too bloomin' late!) but I did get on two occassions, an officer to lean out of a very tall building with a swan hook to free a pigeon and on another occassion I have had an Inspector call around to a particular place on a couple of occassions with ripped netteing and release some birds too - I know this is digressing but I just wanted to get my point of view straight.

Diane what you have done is the best thing for those pigeons - you have made us aware, ( John in particular who I think has done a fantastic job at "hounding" these people in authority), Helen who has offered to help and well the publicity from the paper hopefully will help. 

I am going to e-mail the RSPCA now too just to try and add some more weight ( for what good it will do) and also Manchester Police ( I once had Scotland Yard respond to me re a pigeon cruelty issue) so you never know!

You have to look at these poor things Diane, and my heart goes out to you for having to see these awful sights of suffering birds.

I hope the birds can be caught, I hope the perpetrator gets caught and punished severely and I hope that we can all in time try and forget the sight of that poor bird though I doubt many can.

Kind Regards

Tania (Kittypaws)


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## Feefo

Hi Helen,

How could we forget you? 

Even at the start of this thread you were mentioned as our "hope"...and if you do a search for your user name you will find that you are regularly mentioned! 

I am so sorry that you have been so ill. You are normally such an energetic person, the effects of ME must have been devastating.

Cynthia


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## Birdmom4ever

Helen, so good to hear from you again. I'm praying you will recover your strength and that your wedding will be wonderful. 

-Cathy


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## diane fortune

*need to contact John or Cynthia*

Hi there,
I need to contact somebody quickly. John, Cynthiia, lady in Blacburn, Lady that lives near Middleton. Is any body on line
Diane


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## Feefo

Diane,

My mobile number is 07837152102.

Lesley is there, she has picked up one and is after another. She will contact the Wildlife Hospital, I think it is called Staples or something that sounds like it.

Cynthia


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## bird brain

Hello there
My husband and I have been to the town Center at middleton to see if I could find the pigeons with no beak which Cynthia told me about when I rang her for some advice, well I was horrified at what I saw, there were at least 5 or 6 pigeons with no beaks, at all and a couple with jagged broken stumps, it looked like someone had been at them with pliers or something, I managed to catch two of them, which were too weak to fly, and I almost cried at the sight of them, how could anyone br so cruel, we tried to catch some of the other's but they were still strong enough to fly, so we will go back tomorrow and try again. We have taken the two birds to Helen in Blackburn who will do what she needs to do with them, also I am going to contact Stapley Wildlife hospital and tell them about it, but this morning my home telephone went on the blink, so as soon as it is working I will ring them.

I will post a message if we can catch any more tomorrow

Kind regards
Lesley x


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## Nooti

Hi Lesley - they can't do anything at Stapely Grange, they are just a hospital and unable to do rescues or fight causes unfortunately. Nice place, good people and I have their private direct number if you need them at all. But they won't be able to help in this instance.
Have written a report on the condition of the pigeons but it is posted in the general discussions forum under rspca's refusal to help.


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## Feefo

I have just spent a half hour screaming at some poor contact centre person about this situation, reading out Helen's report, the spokesperson's disgusting summary of the situation, reminding them that it was reported on 28th Feb and march 1st and the birds are still there.

I said that with the combination of the evidence and the dismissive report from their spokesperson we had ample evidence of their neglect and that I would send photos to their headquarters...contact is via their website www.rspca.org.uk.

If you US members can also make contact perhaps the penny will drop that people from the other side of the world were trying to help whereas the RSPCA in that very location did nothing at all.

Now that we have Lesley and helen helping the pigeons my anger is errupting...sorry!

Cynthia


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## Whitefeather

cyro51 said:


> If you US members can also make contact perhaps the penny will drop that people from the other side of the world were trying to help whereas the RSPCA in that very location did nothing at all.
> 
> Now that we have Lesley and helen helping the pigeons my anger is errupting...sorry!
> 
> Cynthia


Hi Cynthia,
I'm in the beginning stages of doing what I can on this end.

Cindy


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## Feefo

Thanks Cindy,

When I telephoned the RSPCA emergency number they wasted a lot of time with various recorded messages, then said that an inspector would contact me to get the exact location, but of course they haven't bothered to do anything. And there are still pigeons out there, suffering. And there is also a psychopath out there.

Cynthia


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## kittypaws

*E-mails*

Whether it will help or not, I have just e-mailed Animal Aid in the UK with the pigeon picture attached that Diane took seeing if they can get any publicity stirred up. Also there is a pigeon racing club in Middleton, so I have e-mailed the chap there Dale Warden to see if he has heard about these mutilations and if any of his members have lost any birds or know anything. 

Could be stirring up a hornets nest by e-mailing him but then what the heck - the more people that know - the more pressure we can put on the RSPCA/Greater Manchester Police. 

Tania


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## diane fortune

*reported to RSPCA Sat 25th Feb*

Hi
Diane here briefly. I reported about them to the RSPCA TWICE on Sat 25th Feb. I went through all the same paraphernalia (on a national rate number!!!!!) The second call I was blunt and to the point about the condition of that bird. I am disgusted with the RSPCA.

Diane


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## Feefo

Hi Diane,

I got that wrong then, I thought that you had not seen them or reported them until the 28th.

What on earth is wrong with that organisation????

I think that we UK people should write to all the newspapers describing how the RSPCA didn't see this as a deliberate act of cruelty. Exposure might make them react in a more compassionate way next time.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Hi Tania,

I am glad you managed to get through to Animal Aid...my e-mail was rejected.

Keep stirring. This isn't just a matter of pointing the finger at the RSPCA...the monster that did it is still out there and as far as we know still mutilating. Otherwise how could there still be mutilated pigeons still alive? We must get the RSPCA to act because they have the legal power that other animal welfare organisations lack.

Cynthia


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## pigeonpoo

OMG I have just read this thread. I am saddened beyond belief that someone could do this, far better he had killed the birds outright than condemn them to suffering a death by starvation. I've posted the photo and a link to the pigeon racing forum I belong to and written to the Manchester Evening News

'Poo


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## bird brain

How about the RSPB, I think I'll give them a ring on monday.
Also there is a bird sanctuary called Three Owls, who are very good, a friend of mine has taken pigeons to them in the past, maybe they can suggest something, I think that, the more people and organisation's, that are made aware of this cruelty the better. Also I wonder if there are any CCTV cameras around the area as it is quite a busy shopping center, maybe if whoever moniters them was told of this, they could lookout for anything suspicious.

Lesley


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## bird brain

I can't get the poor babies out of my mind, I've just emailed the Sun newspaper with the details, and will contact the Daily mirror and do the same, Also I made another report to the RSPCA, the man that I spoke to sounded interested so you never know they might do something.


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## kittypaws

*John*

I have sent you a private e-mail which I am also going to send to Cynthia and Helen - it is some information about who may be doing this but I don't want to be seen as libellous yet!!


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## John_D

Thanks Tania. Received. It definitely needs investigation first

John


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## feralpigeon

cyro51 said:


> If you US members can also make contact perhaps the penny will drop that people from the other side of the world were trying to help whereas the RSPCA in that very location did nothing at all.
> 
> Now that we have Lesley and helen helping the pigeons my anger is errupting...sorry!
> 
> Cynthia


I have written to Michael Todd the Chief Constable of the Manchester Police, The Queen of England, The RSPCA and the journalist who wrote the story several years ago on the bus incident. I provided them all with the appropriate links. Adding our vocal support is the least that we can all do, I am just sick about these poor birds.

fp


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## Feefo

I received your e-mail Tania...whether that is the actual culprit I don't know but I hold the organisation itself responsible because of the cruel practices.

Which reminds me, when I did my research I briefly saw a report of some Manchester group or band that was banned from a beach abroad for hitting each other with dead pigeons. The group was apparently responsible for poisoning 3000 pigeons in Manchester. Maybe any investigations should include a look at their activities. 

I will have to read that report after all , I had hoped to avoid more torture.

Cynthia


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## Feefo

Okay, I got the story slightly wrong, but you get my drift... the poisoning of the pigeons sounds like something that the person in question was proud of and bragged about.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/showbiz/1332379.stm

Cynthia


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## kittypaws

*More e-mail contacts*

As previously posted we have had some information as to whom may possibly be responsible, but the source of the information is unknown and until we can establish further facts from certain other sources we can not really say whether this information is accurate or not, but this information has been forwarded to the RSPCA and the Police as "annonymous" and a possible line of enquiry for this henious crime.

I would just like to THANKS everyone at Pigeons.com for helping with this awful situation. Although I am in the UK, I am too far away to be "hands on" with trying to catch the birds, but as all you lovely people overseas know the "power of the pen is mightier than the sword" ( sounds a bit distatesful I know in these circumstances)

Cynthia has already kindly advised the e-mail address of the Manchester branch of the RSPCA but I list below a couple of links for the RSPCA main HQ and the GMP.

Manchester RSPCA [email protected]

RPSPCA HQ - http://rspca.org.uk
You need to go Contact ( bottom left hand corner) then Web Enquiry - Click here and you will need to register with a user name and password but once you have done that you can post a complaint and they should get back to you - may take a few days or a week but at least if we are all bombarding them with these emails they have to listen up and do somthing

The police - again there is no actual e-mail facility about this but if you go to this link http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/feedback.htm&dept=Acts/Police/Schemes

you can make a web enquiry and again it is a way of getting an electronic message through to them even if it is not through the correct channel. If the police do decide to investigate and we all know this could take weeks and months etc. if enough people are contacting them about this then hopefully thay will take this seriously.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH - lets hope and pray that Lesley ( and Diane?) are successful today in catching a few more of these poor creatures. 

Tania


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## AliBlack

I've e-mailed the Manchester RSPCA so far, will e-mail the main RSPCA now, thanks for all those addresses.
And thanks so much to everyone else who is helping, especially Diane who got the ball rolling, it helps to know so many people care in horrible situations like this.
The person doing this is so clearly a danger to humans as well as animals.


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## AliBlack

The addy for the local RSPCA Manchester doesn't work, message got sent back to me, I'll see if I can find another, I've e-mailed the main RSPCA too.


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## AliBlack

Address for local RSPCA is [email protected]


----------



## Feefo

Thanks Ali, I always seem to have incredible difficulties e-mailing the RSPCA. The only time I was successful and got a reply it turned out to be in Australia!

I will e-mail the local branch, they are the ones that should be taking action.

Hopefully the volume of e-mails will galvinise them into action.

Cynthia


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## kittypaws

*E-mail address incorrect*

Sorry all,

Yes Ali, I have misquoted the e-mail address for the local RSPCA office.

To reconfirm the addresses to contact they are:-

Manchester RSPCA [email protected]

RSPCA HQ - http://rspca.org.uk
You need to go Contact ( bottom left hand corner) then Web Enquiry - Click here and you will need to register with a user name and password but once you have done that you can post a complaint and they should get back to you - may take a few days or a week but at least if we are all bombarding them with these emails they have to listen up and do somthing

The police - again there is no actual e-mail facility about this but if you go to this link http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/fe...Police/Schemes

Tania


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## diane fortune

To BIRD BRAIN
Hi Lesley,
I actually sent an email to the three Owls before I found Pigeon Talk. I detailed the problem but got no reply.

Diane


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## Nooti

You won't get a reply from three owls. It's not lucrative enough for them.
I'm sorry, but I have no time for that place at all. A few years ago I was sent in undercover to take photos of their set up and what I saw there disgusted me. 135 tawny owls crammed into an aviary only about twice the size of your average living room. No perches anywhere and a rotting melamine kitchen table in the middle on which they threw a bin bag of chicks every day.
The barn owls and kestrels fared no better. About the same number again crammed together in a similar sized flight and again - no perches. There were boxes at the top of the flight but the barn owls had comandeered them and there was nowhere for the kestrels to perch - so they hung on to the aviary wire and their feathers were a terrible mess. Sadly I couldn't get close enough to phorograph them but I got photos of the tawny owl hellhole. What was even worse was that there was nothing wrong with most of the birds - they could have been released, but they were kept purely as a money maker. Innocent people were taken round on a tour of the place and at the end of it the poor innocents would slip a fiver in the donations box with the words, "You're doing a good job there mate."
These people were conned out of their money - and despite my undercover visit and getting loads of photos nothing has ever been done for those poor brain dead tawny owls, some of whom have been locked up in there for 30 years!
I will not associate with them!
Back to the subject in hand - I have just had a phone call from Lesley - she has caught four more pidgies at Middleton, one of which appears to have broken legs. Will post more later when I know more.


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## feralpigeon

Regarding the Greater Manchester Police website, I found this email link on the site that apparently goes directly to the Chief Constable, Michael J. Todd and is the email link that I used to voice my complaint:

http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/pages/aboutgmp.htm

He says he wants to know, so bring it on.

fp


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## solly

Just want to add my stories about the RSPCA.Year before last i saw a heron next to the river in tavistock devon.I thought it was sunning itself as it was just standing there.About 6 hours later walking back the same way it was just curled up in a ball.I picked it up and had to hold its head as it was all floppy and i went into the local police station asking them to phone the rspca.Oh we've phoned them several times today the officer said thats harry the heron,give him here we'll put him out in the kennels until they get here.I wasn;t going to do that so i asked if they had a box or if someone could drive me to the vets with him.The answer was negative on both counts.i got mad and said okay i would get him to a vet and they said well that was up to me. they gave the impression they thought i would have to pay.Anyway a market trader i knew drove me to the vets and the vet rang me the next day to say they put him to sleep as he was so cold and dehydrated there was nothing they could do.If only something was done earlier he might have been okay.Several months later was driving late one night and there was a badger next to the road.It had a small amount of blood coming out of its mouth but was still breathing.This was in the middile of a country lane by the moors.I eventually got through and asked the rspca to send someone but was told to pick it up and take it to a vets.I said badgers are very vicious but the woman on the other end said not to worry as it was unconcious.I threw a cloth over him first to make sure he wasn't faking and put him on the front seat of the car as that was the only spare place.They had given me the name and number of a vet but the number would not work so i drove him 6 miles to another vet.Luckily there was someone there but he was gob-smacked to find i had handled an injured badger especially at the rspcas insistence.Unfortunately he died but at least it was in the warm under a heatlamp and he was given a chance.I THINK THE RSPCA ARE A WASTE OF SPACE AND MONEY.THEY SPEND MILLIONS BUILDING NEW CALL CENTRES AND THEY LOOK THE REAL HEROES ON THE TV PROGRAMMES THEY "STAR"IN BUT IN MY OPINION THEY STINK!


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## pigeonpoo

Would it be possible to get TV cameras there? Animal Hospital?

Someone in the UK has had experience of this sort of thing before: "Years ago I was involved with a case where several blackbirds were found the same way, then it was discovered that someone had put lots of break back rat traps out as he was plagued by rodents. He failed to put them away out of sight, and the blackbirds were going for the bait and getting their beaks caught." ????

'Poo


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## kittypaws

*Rscpa ?*

This is terrible - these tales of the RSPCA not helping - you will know in previous posts that I have mixed dealings with them some good, some bad - the badger and the heron, well I would have thought on both accounts they should have attended. When I reported a swan visibly shaking ( a known swan to me) I was told " Oh he's OK, its because the female has her cygents, she doesn't want to know him and he is upset" - Duh - Anyone who knows swans know that they are extermely protective of their mate and their offspring. I said to the woman "shall I keep an eye on him then?" to which she said yes. The ironic thing was that I saw an RSPCA van later that day and the nearest hospital is only about 2 miles away in Putney - yes it was shown all lovely on the "Animal Hopsital" series - I think I may need to e-mail Rolf Harris next!! When I returned to the pond the following day the swan had drowned!! ( If I could have reached him I would have but he was far to into the water for me to reach without a boat) When ringing them back and almost screaming at the operator, she calmly told me that this should have been attended to and was very sorry!! Consequently the female swan had to raise 9 cygents on her own and she only lost one.

As Helen says back to the story in hand - fantastic news that Lesley has caught another 4 - the one with the broken legs sounds bad - poor thing- what kind of cruel twisted people are we dealing with here? 

Lesley you are an absolute angel, I expect these 4 captures have taken you most of today so well done you for being there for the pidgies and spending your weekend trying to catch them. We all know how difficult it is to catch them, sick, injured or otherwise.

fp thanks for the new link for the Chief Constable of GMP - we all need to get contacting him now too.

If you type in Wildlife on the search button at GMP it does state their views on Wildlife Crime and on the website you would think that they would take this type of crime seriously - ha ha ha.

I shall be reminding Mr Todd of this. 

Tania


----------



## feralpigeon

On the one hand, I'm relieved to know that four injured birds were caught to bring in for medical evaluation. On the other hand, based on what Helen said yesterday about the injuries occurring at different times, it sickens me to think that this is an on going situation. For a psycho, it may be a Dante's 'Heaven' if he thinks that folks are upset and picking up his handi work to examine. We really need to bombard Michael Todd's email box.

fp


----------



## Feefo

> We really need to bombard Michael Todd's email box.


I have written, I will both write to and e-mail the Queen.

I am writing to just about everyone I can think of, maybe someone will have the influence to stop this monster.

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti

Ok - we have 4 more now, plus one with two broken legs.
One of the four with no beaks is so recent I guess the injury is less than 24 hours old. The wound is fresh, still bleeding slightly, and the bird is a fat and feisty little porker. Whoever did this cut his tongue off as well. That has gone too. And the cut is so straight that it has to be a pair of scissors - or garden shears. Wire cutters would rip and crush. This is too neat a cut. I have emailed more horrifying pictures to Terry for uploading, one of these being a profile of the recent one showing the dead straight cut - not something disease would be capable of. I'm not uploading them here. This is a family site........ nuff said.
However I have this photo of all four in a cage awaiting Laura and will upload this one if I can.
There is also a photo of the one with two broken legs. There's no way of knowing how he got his injury but it is not recent. Both legs were snapped half way down the tibia and fibula. Both are fully healed overiding fractures - imagine a pencil snapped in half and the two halves put together so that some of their length are running side by side. That is an overiding fracture. The calluses are huge and holding both sets of bones together. Nothing surgical is possible. He gets along by using his legs and his wings and manoeuvers his breast along the ground. Am not sure what the future holds for him, although Cynthia has kindly offered him a home.


----------



## Camrron

I'm glad to hear Lesley has managed to catch more of these poor birds. I wish I could help out some way. Keep up the good work Lesley. Thanks for the update Nooti

Cameron


----------



## Reti

OMG, this is just too horrific, worse than a nightmare. Everytime I sleep now I have nightmares about pigeons.
I pray this will stop, this person has to be cought.
All Uk members, bless you fo all you do for those unfortunate birds.

Reti


----------



## Nooti

OK so I hadn't realised if I uploaded the pictures it would give links to them. Thought it would just open them up unexpectedly in the post which was not what I wanted. I think people should have the choice as to whether they view them or not. So I'll upload them as links, but be warned. They are not nice at all.


----------



## re92346mos

John, what is PICAS? Rena


----------



## Camrron

The pictures are very dark for me to see clearly. What I wanted to know though are any of these birds banded as the news article mentioned. Any idea then where they might have come from? Banded birds are less likely to be in harms way. If they are banded then we have a clue on the location of the problem.

Cameron


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Helen, 

What will be done with these latest casualties? I hope their suffering isn't too great and it just seems like euthanasia is the only right thing to do. 

I just can't believe that they've been mutilated like this


----------



## Camrron

I agree Brad, for a creature without hands, life without a beak must be the most miserable event that could ever happen. Euthanization is an act of kindness, compassion and love in a case like this.

Cameron


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Nooti, thank you so much for the update and your efforts on behalf of these poor pigeons. I'm sick that the injuries are so recent, meaning the carnage is ongoing. I'm sending a letter to the RSPCA--snail mail, but it's harder to ignore than e-mail. Will also contact the queen. In the meantime I'm going to cry into my pigeons' feathers and give them all the love I can. This is a nightmare. I'm not a violent person, but I think whoever is doing this should have half _his_ face cut off and be left to die!


----------



## John_D

re92346mos said:


> John, what is PICAS? Rena


Hi Rena,

It's PIgeon Control Advisory Service, and run by a man called Guy Marchant. It exists to try to work with companies, city councils and such to provide non-lethal ways of deterring pigeons from buildings and areas.

They advocate the provision of nestboxes, and replacement of eggs by dummies, where possible as a means of poulation control.

Thay have (or had) a branch in the USA as well as in the UK.

They are not, however, involved in rescues and treatment - though volunteers do assist in the removal of pigeons from premises and the safe collection of nestlings.

They weren't any help in this case.

John


----------



## feralpigeon

The looks on their poor faces, just had to cry for them. There must be someone who regularly works in the area who has seen something. Are they all being collected from the same area of the city center, or is it more of a broad area?

fp


----------



## Feefo

Those poor birds, they looks so innocent and harmless. How can such evil exist?

Like Cathy I find myself cuddling my pigeons and telling them how much I love them.

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws

*Innocents*

Poor sweet little innocents - their eyes are so well full of fear/bewilderment I don't know - they are probably wondering what they did to deserve such a cruel fate. Thank goodness Lesley has managed to get them off the streets. Do we know if she caught the first browny/grey bird that we first saw - the picture that Diane took. It wouldn't appear so but we never saw both the birds that Helen took to Laura - just the one - poor thing

I truly wish that something horrible and painful happens to these perpetrators tomorrow I don't care - but I hope it hurts really bad.

A recent mutilation is so upsetting - why hasn't anyone seen this going on - where are the police and RSPCA to monitor this when it is so current?

I too am going to write letters tomorrow to the RSPCA and the Police and I shall fax them. This will be in addition to the e-mails I have already sent them.

The fax numbers are: RSPCA 0044 870 7530284
GMP 0044 161 8566644

Please everyone - keep sending the e-mails, letters and faxes.

I shall be sending new e-mails too with latest developments - how can they ignore this? 

Tania


----------



## bird brain

Hello

The four mutilated pideons we caught today, were from exactly the same spot as the two from yesterday, we drove right into the main shopping area, and I threw some pigeon corn & peanuts out the car window, a lot of pigeons came down , but we didn't see any of the injured ones for a while, after about half an hour or so noticed one, then the others, all the pigeons were so desperate for food they were landing on the car, even on the wing mirrors and open window ledge, catching them was quite easy, I just watched the one I was after and opened the car door (its a big 4 x 4 so plenty space between door and ground) and dropped some food next to car, all the birds were concentrating on the food so much they didn't even notice me just reach down and pick one up, I did the same with all four, the one with broken legs was being attacked by about 6 or 7 other pigeons, so I just walked quickly over and picked it up, that was also quite easy to catch as it couldn't take off very well, we waited about another hour or so, and had a walk around, but didn't see any more injured birds, we then drove all around the area and every group of pigeons we saw, my hubby looked at them with his binoculars, but they all seemed ok. None of the injured pigeons we caught were ringed, but I'm sure they they were all from the same flock, so maybe they are being caught from wherever they sleep. We are going to go back maybe tomorrow or Tuesday to have another look around, but Please God, I pray there are no more. I feel so sorry for these poor little birds, and so angry for the person responsible that I can't eat or sleep properly because of it.

Lesley


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Bless you Lesley, for your hands-on help. I can well imagine you are traumatized by seeing and handling these poor pigeons. Thank you so much for your unconditional love for these birds. I'm praying whoever is doing this will be stopped and that you won't find anymore mutilated pigeons. I believe your acts of kindness will ultimately be rewarded and whoever is doing this will eventually receive retribution. Let's just hope it's sooner rather than later!


----------



## TAWhatley

Lesley, Diane, Helen, and Laura .. truly we cannot thank you wonderful people enough for being in the trenches there and helping these pitiful birds. I will try to get organized and get all the photos into one place, but did take the ones Helen sent today and lightened them up a bit .. http://www.rims.net/PigeonBeak2

Terry


----------



## re92346mos

*National Pigeon Ass. contacted, about mutilated birds*

This is a response I got when I informed Stan Ryan District NPA head, he wants to help and I have confidence in him that he can acomplish alot. Rena
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
Date: 03/05/06 15:14:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Killed Pigeons.......

Hi Rena,
I'm appalled at this inhuman treatment to these birds. I've not yet seen any photos and would ask for any documentation you have, i.e. arrests, warrants, newspaper articles, dates of occurrences etc.
Thanks for any help.........
Stan Ryan


----------



## TAWhatley

Rena, 

Have you sent him the pictures?

http://www.rims.net/PigeonBeak

http://www.rims.net/PigeonBeak2

Terry


----------



## Feefo

*Full crops*

I know that some of you must be wondering but don't like to ask... Helen did fill their crops while they waited for Laura and kept them warm, so they were as comfortable as she could make them.

Cynthia


----------



## phyll

Thank you, Cynthia, that helped a little.
I am heartsick over this horrific situation.
My e-mails have been sent to the RSPCA & the Chief. 

Thinking of these poor trusting babies being held in the hands of this maniac, is more than I can stand. They subjected these sweet,innocent creatures to dehydration, starvation & a horrible death. It's terrifying to think they are still out there somewhere. Unless they are truly mentally ill, & cannot comprehend the repurcussions of their actions, woe to them.

Anyone who prays ~
I ask you to please pray for these poor pigeons. Ask God to keep them in His care until they are with Him. 
Also, ask Him to stop this "being" from harming another creature ever again.

May God bless all of you who are attempting to help these birds & may He grant you strength.
Thank you, Diane, for bringing this to everyone's attention. Thanks to all of you.

Phyll


----------



## diane fortune

I have many times walked passed pigeons that had some kind of problem eg mangled foot, no foot, but they would be going about their business and I would just think 'poor thing'. 

To think that I may have done the same with the first bird, (at first look I didn't Know that it had no beak, its face was tucked in its chest) it just looked poorly. It was only after I had been 'talking to it' for a couple of minutes that it lifted its face up and I saw the extent of its injury.

I could so easily have just walked on by.

As I have said to John, I was stunned to hear the results. I didn't really beleive that a human being would cut the beak off a bird. Re the man on the bus, I just assumed that he must have been under the influence of drugs.

I cannot express how pleased and relieved I am that I made contact with your organisation.
I won't say what I hope happens to the person/people that are doing this.
Surely this cannot be ignored by the authorities.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Diane,

Most people, even animal lovers, would not have stopped to talk to the pigeon or taken the time to search further once they had contacted the RSPCA. Thank goodness you are different.

I am just so sorry that this has turned out to be so much worse than any of us imagined it could be.

Cynthia


----------



## AliBlack

I heard back from the local (Manchester) RSPCA;

>Hi,
Thanks for your concern, this is an absolutely sickening act of cruelty. The
local Inspector has been out to calls about this a few times. She managed to
catch a couple but sometimes the birds had gone when she got there.
If you find out any information about who is doing this then please let us
know & it will be dealt with accordingly.
Thanks again,
Julie Threlfall.<


----------



## Pidgey

Me, too:

"Thanks for your concern about these birds, I have been in touch with the
local Inspector and the matter is under investigation. Any injured birds
will be caught if possible and treated by a vet. The Inspector has spoken to
Helen today so we are all working together on this to hopefully stop it &
find out who is responsible.
Thanks again,
Julie Threlfall."


----------



## Feefo

Thanks Ali.

That means that our Lesley is a lot more effective than the RSPCA inspector. She has only been out twice and caught 6. Maybe they should pay her.

Still hasn't made the news. Perhaps sending the stories and pictures of live pigeons could help, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3037360.stm We need more people to catch the pigeons and pass them to the RSPCA (I assume now that euthanasia is inevitable so they might as well do what they are paid for?).

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti

Would like to know which inspector caught a couple of pidgies coz the one who is on the case has phoned me for my report and said she has been out looking every day since the first report back in February and hasn't seen any yet.
This inspector sounds like she is desperate for info - says she is bombarded by reports from a lot of people - no surprise there listening to you all!  but she says she is stuck without witnesses, CCTV or anyone who is willing to snitch on their mate. And she's right. No matter how much we shout, and how much work we put in to help these birds, without that vital link we've nothing.
That's the sad thing - he/she/they may never be caught.


----------



## Feefo

That is where publicity and a reward could help.

And where is she looking for the pigeons? She is probably looking in the wrong places! 

I would be happy to just have this person stopped.

Cynthia


----------



## John_D

I have been in contact with Paneesha, who is the Middleton Guardian reporter on last week's story in that paper.

She asked if she could contact anyone directly involved.

I have spoken now to both Lesley and Helen, who have allowed me to provide their phone nos to Paneesha.

I am also sounding this reporter out as regards the suggestions for offering a reward for the perpetrator's arrest and conviction.

John


----------



## Camrron

Great job everyone. The pressure and E-mails and coorespondance is helping to resolve this situation little by little. Together we will help catch and stop this person. I have no doubt. It' the power of a community of sharp minds, good hearts and revulsion of what we have seen and heard.

Cameron


----------



## Victor

They heard from Omaha Nebraska . We need to all gang up on them, and maybe they can end this with our encouragement.This is simply uncalled, unjustified and sick.I wrote to everyone I can think of.


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Thank you Lesley, Diane, Helen, and Laura, from the bottom of my heart. And thanks to everyone else, in the U.K. and here, who is contacting the authorities and doing all they can. I hope and pray the media will pick this up.


----------



## Feather

Hi linda,
Thanks for your concern, our local Inspector is working with local bird rescue groups to help these birds. Some have already been caught and any others reported will be helped. We will obviously investigate & try to find out who is responsible for these awful acts of cruelty.
Rest assured the matter is under investigation,
Julie Threlfall

This is the reply that I received from the RSPCA, after reading the posts this 
morning, I have no dought that the local bird rescue that is mentioned here is none other than our very own Helen. On the other thread Helen mentioned that a rep from the RSPCA called her desperate for information on this case, and said she had been bombarded with messages from people concerned about those birds. 

Love to all,
Feather


----------



## bird brain

Hi 
my husband, who helped me catch the injured pigeons, went to see if there were any more today, he thought he would nip and have a look as they were on his mind, he didn't see any, but he only had a quick look round, he wasn't able to stay any longer as he should have been on a job 25 miles away, I will go tomorrow and have a good look around myself, (actualy i'll ask my sister to come with me for moral support) as if there is any, I will try and get them. Also I could do with showing the RSPCA excactly where I picked the others up from. So that if they go looking themselves, at least they will be in the right place.

Lesley

PS Cynthia, I was so pleased that you offered the broken legs pidgy a home, it looked so helpess and was struggeling to move, and God knows what suffering it had already been through, I'm so glad I was able to catch it. 
Also canker baby seems to be improving thanks for the medication.


----------



## phyll

Here is the response I received:
Hello,
The local inspector has been out a few times & managed to catch a few injured birds. She has also been on occasions when the bird had gone when she got there. Please don't think that nothing is being done about this as we will go out to collect an injured bird. It's not always easy to catch them in open spaces.
Thanks for your concern.
Julie Threlfall

Lesley,
We appreciate everything you & your husband have done to alleviate the suffering of these poor pigeons.
I can imagine the emotional toll it's taking, but I do pray that each one is found.

Phyll


----------



## bird brain

Hi just spoke to the Middleton Guardian newspaper reporter. 
I'm going back to look if I can see any more injured pigeons later on.

Lesley


----------



## John_D

Hi Lesley - 

Hope she was willing to be helpful.

Well done.

John

PS Plastic eggs dispatched this morning


----------



## Nooti

Paneesha from the Middleton Gardian phoned me this morning too. Glad she got through to you Lesley. She said she'd been trying to get in touch. I just gave the facts - leave it up to them to publicise it. One thing she did ask me though - was I absolutely sure this was not a disease? So I suspect she has the RSPCA's story too.


----------



## Pidgey

Yeah, it's a disease alright--a mentally diseased human being!

Pidgey


----------



## John_D

Hi Helen,

She asked Cynthia the same thing - Cynthia had emailed the Guardian at some stage, and the reporter asked her if she could talk to her.

Up till now, Paneesha has only actually had my word for it about the cause (re the first two birds), so I think she is making absolutely sure of confirmation from the 'hands on' people. (And doing some 'ass covering', I expect). 

Although this happened in a nearby area before, I doubt she knew of it, and may be somewhat bemused by the degree of interest this has created from near and far.

Friend in London is trying to get C4 news involved - so they may perhaps get a call from someone there.


John


----------



## diane fortune

Hi John,
its ironic really, the first bird that started this off was 2 doors away from the Guardians office on Fountain St.
Diane


----------



## Nooti

Manchester Evening News got my story now..........................


----------



## John_D

diane fortune said:


> Hi John,
> its ironic really, the first bird that started this off was 2 doors away from the Guardians office on Fountain St.
> Diane


Ironic indeed! Well, it took that poor bird AND you to get this thing started off. 

Horrible as it is, it's shown (as someone already noted) how people on the spot, not so close, and a few thousand miles away can co-operate in getting things done. 

Also put Cynthia and I back in touch with Helen, which is a bonus, and got a few of us in the UK generally in more direct contact, too. 

Helen - your contact with the eve news should get this to a wider audience. 

Maybe the perpetrator will be frightened off. If not, and it's a real 'dedicated psycho' then I'd expect the media will want to know if the police are doing anything, and hopefully stir some action there. 

John


----------



## AliBlack

Do we know if all the birds are being euthanased, is there hope for any of them if they have their tongues intact and if homes can be found for them? And the one with broken legs are you having him Cynthia? Is his beak intact?


----------



## re92346mos

Thanks I had never heard of them.


----------



## Feefo

Hi Ali,

Helen is assessing the one with the broken legs, his beak is intact and I will have him if he isn't suffering.

So far the pigeons that Helen has dealt with had their tongues either cut off or they had dried up...the joy of having Helen assess them rather than someone that doesn't understand pigeons is that we can trust her if she says euthanasia is the only option.

She knows that I will take any that can have quality of life even though they couldn't go in an aviary with fully beaked cocks! 

Salvaging just one of these poor babies would be a balm to us all just now.

Cynthia


----------



## Feather

I am so proud of all of you, you bring tears to my eyes. I wish we had Helen over here. I don't have a good avian vet in my area, and the ones I do have, I do not trust. The vet that I go to when I'm desperate is not partial to pigeons. I have saved more birds from the help of our members than I could have if I would have taken them to the vet. 

The only problem is the meds. What are the medications that I need to get from a vet that I can't buy from supply houses? 

Feather


----------



## bird brain

Hello 
I spent around 2 hours looking for anymore injured pigeons today, I had a good look round but couldn't see any. I went just after lunchtime, armed with a bucket of mixed pigeon corn & peanuts, to the same spot where I had caught the 6 beakless, and 1 broken legged pigeon from, I used up about half of the seed there, a lot of pigeons came down, but there were still quite a few that stayed up on the roof, it was cold and raining so maybe they just didn't feel like moving (I knew the feeling,) and as far as I could see, they were ok, but I'm not 100% sure, as some were sat huddled together and I couldn't see their faces. I wandered all around the shopping area and put the rest of the seed down, which was soon eaten, and all the pigeons I saw looked ok, (well, they still had their beaks) I did manage to pick one up wlth cotton around its feet, it wasn't too bad, but I had to go and buy a manicure set and use the scissors to remove it.
Anyway, I was glad (I think) that I didn't find any more, and that a lot of the other pigeons had their little bellies full.
I will give it a couple of days and go and have another look.
Hopefuly there wont be any more.

Also I'm becoming immune to the funny looks people give me as I am chasing pigeons around.  

Lesley


----------



## kittypaws

*Bless you Lesley*

For spending so much time looking for injured birds - hey I bet the pigeons in Middleton have never been so well fed.

Perhaps you have caught all the afflicted ones.... lets hope so - I think going back in a few days may be a good idea as the pidgies now may be thinking 
" There's that woman that keeps trying to catch us! " And yes well funny looks - but I think when people know what you are doing they do understand and if they don't SO WHAT - when I tried to catch one in Kingston Town Centre - right in the middle of a really busy pedestrian thoroughfare - he appeared to be suffering from PMV - really bad head circling and completely disorientated - he could still fly kind of and led me a merry dance past Marks and Spencers and Sainsburys much to the amusement, I noticed, of all the passers by - but I caught him and then I had to buy a towel, armed with a pigeon in a little shop, to wrap him up with. The shopkeeper kinda raised his eyebrows but didn't say anthing - Nor did the people on the train where I had this dear sweet little feathered grey head poking out of a bright blue towel with an elephant embroidered on it 

Lesley, Thank you for all you have done for these guys - their suffering is no more thanks to you, Diane and Helen.

Tania


----------



## John_D

Lesley -

Thanks so much for looking out for these pigeons. We can just hope that the maniac has done - though that would make catching him virtually impossible 

Tania - 

If only... there were a pic of you and little feather-head 

Maybe looked a bit like one of Treesa's pics (pidge in a Christmas stocking) 

John


----------



## bird brain

Hi
Just had channel M news reporter on phone, I've got to meet her in Middleton, eek: GULP!!! hope I'm not on tele), Helen is coming also so that will be good, I don't know if reporter has already spoken to Diane, but if not and you read this before 3.30 I think you should be there also, were meeting at Middleton Archer pub (car park ) at 3.30pm
then going to Middleton gardens, where pidgies were found.

looks like people are taking notice

Lesley


----------



## John_D

Emailed Diane, so she gets the message.

Yep, things are hotting up a bit

John


----------



## Nooti

GULP!!! hope I'm not on tele),
********************************
Can I hide behind you?


----------



## John_D

Nooti said:


> GULP!!! hope I'm not on tele),
> ********************************
> Can I hide behind you?


G'arn wiv yer - sock it to 'em  

John


----------



## Nooti

Hope it's not a wash out...... they're filming in Middleton Gardens and we're experiencing 6ins of rainfall in 3 hours syndrome at the moment! They'll want to start the footage off with a scene of pigeons in the shopping centre I would think - just to set the scene. Bet we won't spot a pidgie for miles around in this rain - and I think they got a point! We'll be the drips! 
...................................... Gone to wash hair and count wrinkles in the mirror.


----------



## Feefo

Channel M...we won't be able to watch that here!  

I hope that it goes well. I will be thinking of you all.

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti

Going to see if I can get a copy of the film on video. I can turn it digital and email it.


----------



## Whitefeather

Thank you for the positive update Lesley.  
You & Helen (& hopefully Diane) will do great.  

We can only hope & pray that this exposure brings forth the identity this low life scum bucket & his cronies, if he has any, & someone spots him/them walking about. I'm sure there are many folks who are just itching to have a little 'chat' with him. 

Please let us know how the interview goes.

Cindy


----------



## Reti

Good luck everybody.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

I hope the interview/publicity goes well and will help the pigeons. I'll look forward to seeing or reading the interview if that's possible.

Terry


----------



## diane fortune

Sorry John,
I've only just got home so only just seen email and postings. I can get channel M though so you can bet your life I'm going to watch it
Diane


----------



## Nooti

can get channel M though so you can bet your life I'm going to watch it
******************************************
5pm Thursday.
Apart from a couple of cr*%nous kids who insisted on spoiling the show and causing several re-shoots before finally being scared off, it all went well. Even got a few pidgies in the shot.


----------



## bird brain

Hi There
TV interview done, It's a shame Diane wasn't able to get there, I would have liked to have met her. The filming went ok ( I think) I had loads of thing's I wanted to say, but when the camera was on me , my mind went blank, and I'm very sorry, but I didn't say half of what I had planned, it didn't help that there were some noisy kid's jumping about and shouting behind us, until Helen stepped in and chased them off, Helen's part of the interview went very well, as she didn't stutter and stammer like I felt I did. The main thing though, is that the more people that are made aware of what has been going on, then, if (God forbid) there are any more mutilations, hopefully there will be more people looking out for them. 

Lesley


----------



## diane fortune

To Lesley and Helen,
I'm sure you both did very well. If I had been there I would have just blubbered. 5pm Thursday, is that when it's on. I'v watched it tonight but nothing mentioned. 
Changing the subject slightly, how do you convert video to digital? I can only record video.

Diane


----------



## Maggie-NC

Just want to say thank you to all you wonderful people for what you have done and will continue to do. May God bless you all.

Maggie


----------



## Feefo

I am certain that you were both great. Thank you for all you have done, I shudder to think what would be happening without you.

I am sorry that Diane wasn't there, it would have been good to have the three of you together!

Cynthia


----------



## John_D

*Cynthia!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Sorry to use this thread - trying to PM you, but your box is full.

John


----------



## Nooti

C'mon Cynthia - read your mail!
Rotflmo!
Diane , I can turn video into digital because my video recorder is connected to my computer and the resulting picture runs through my TV card. I can then save the file to be played on Windows media player or other computer media players. I can't get channel M though.


----------



## Feefo

> C'mon Cynthia - read your mail!
> Rotflmo!


I haven't had an e-mail! But have emptied all my private messages now.

Helen, why don't you get M news? Who gets it? I so wanted to see the programme.

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws

*Great News*

This is great news - publicity is what we need and local publicity is best because it shows the locals what's happening in their town and maybe, just maybe someone may shop this bad person.

Do you think it's worth e-mailing the local RSPCA and letting them know about the news slot - they may want to watch and see what you two and Diane have done - 100 times better than they have - and they have the resources and the money!!! 

Tania

NB- I'll e-mail them if you like....


----------



## Feather

Diane, Leslie and Helen,

This is amazing!

Leslie, I'm sure you stated what needed to be said. You girls are the VOICE of those pigeons.

Diane, Even though you were't there in physical form, you were their (the pigeons) first call for help, without you none of this would be happening.

Helen, I hope you are feeling better. This type of activity must be awfully draining. I hope that you will be able to get the rest that you need to be the most beautiful bride ever.

With Love and Admiration,
Feather


----------



## Nooti

Feather, thank you so much for your flattering words, but common sense, my age and having 5 grandchildren in tow means I long since gave up on wishful thinking! RORFL! I'll just be glad to get down the aisle without tripping over high heels which I'm not used to wearing.  
As for being draining, it had actually been invigorating. I've even agreed to take in Lesley's sick pigeon, and I admitted a lost and homeless Sun Jenday Conure yesterday. I have now managed to design print and send out the invitation cards. Maybe there's hope for me yet.
Cynthia, I don't get channel M because I don't live in the Manchester area. However, there are various ways of getting hold of a copy of the shoot. I already have feelers out for someone to copy it for me. Lesley is also going to get someone to tape it, and if all else fails, a check for £23 to the newsdesk will ensure a copy on dvd will be winging its way to me.


----------



## pigeonpoo

Nooti said:


> if all else fails, a check for £23 to the newsdesk will ensure a copy on dvd will be winging its way to me.


Hmm, something wrong here - they should be paying you for allowing them to interview you! LOL! Maybe they can be persuaded to put up a reward to catch whoever is doing this.

Well done Helen and Lesley - you were brave to go in front of the cameras.

Now, Helen, if you can just delay your wedding for another month, I should have my birds ready to do a dove release for you.......avian flu permitting!

'Poo


----------



## Nooti

Lesley - I never did tell you what I said to those brattish kids did I? They fell into their own trap by insisting on getting themselves into the shot so I eventually told them that we were expensive actors charging channel M £250 a minute for an exclusive and since they were now on film I would suggest to the TV crew they use that to identify who they were and send their parents a bill for lost time, lost revenue and anything else they could legally claim back! Didn't know whether I could bluff it out but that, coupled with talking on my mobile and talking to that big chap who turned up seemed to do the trick. The screaming they did in the background while you were talking won't matter. That can be dubbed out. It was just the fact that they kept walking onto the screen and behaving like idiots - or is that normal for 11 year old boys?


----------



## Feefo

You might not know this but that pigeon that Lesley rescued (Middy?) was a vital link in this whole affair.

If Lesley hadn't found Middy and e-mailed me about her I wouldn't have been able to tell her about the Middleton pigeons and she wouldn't have gone out to catch them , spare them further suffering and provide proof of mutilation. Lesley wouldn't have met Helen and Miiddy wouldn't have ended up in Helen's care.

I think that we all need a success story to come out of this, let's hope that Middy makes a full recovery.

Please keep us updated about her progress, Helen!

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti

Please keep us updated about her progress, Helen!

************************************
Will do - watch the "Lesley - your pigeon thread".


----------



## Birdmom4ever

Congratulations Helen and Lesley on your TV debut! I'm sure you were beautiful, whatever you may think. I do hope we will be able to view it at some point. Let us know.


----------



## bird brain

Hello cynthia,
It's weird how things work out, I think was it's all down to perfect timing, between Diane, yourself, Helen and me, (oh and dont forget the poorly little pidgie that I rang you about) cos your right, if she hadn't have found her way to me, then I would be non the wiser to any of this, and she would probably have died a miserable death somewhere, instead of now living it up with Helen. Also the fate of the other pigeons dosen't even bear thinking about, God only knows what would have been in store for them.

kind regards 
Lesley

Here is a pic of the little sweetie, looking a lot better than she did on Friday, though she is very thin.


----------



## Karen 210773

Blimey so much I have missed, i'm so sorry, Well done to all of you who are and have been working together to get this hateful situation resolved! I cannot believe that a pigeon would stay alive after no beak at all, really thought they couldn't breathe or shock would kill them. Some really sick people out there and so so proud of all of you who have taken action!!!! 

Good luck Helen with your special day, really hope that all goes well for you and the sun will be shining. Great news your tying the knot, congratulations XXXXX

If there is anything I can do this end, would be nice to see it in the news xx


----------



## John_D

This weeks local newspaper article, sent me by Diane.

Aside from our Helen not actually being a vet, not sure reporter has correctly quoted Helen anyway(?) No mention of the previous attacks 3 years ago, either. As for the statement from someone at the RSPCA! 

Is that the RSPCA person you spoke to, Helen?

John


----------



## Pigeonpal2002

Hi John, 

Thanks for the article. Yes, that Heather Holmes from the RSPCA is grasping at straws in her comments. Obviously her and the RSPCA are not listening to what was said about the beaks or they are burying their heads in the sand. 

I hope that comment doesn't do damage to the case you are all trying to present to the public...it shouldn't really. It is clear to anyone who reviews the facts, that these pigeons have had their beaks cut off, not pulled off or victims of a "disease".


----------



## Feefo

I think that the article is good, it makes the RSPCA look stupid and ineffective whereas Helen sounds practical and effective. Since when did the RSPCA have to witness an act of cruelty to investigate it?

We will have to renew protests about the RSPCA this weekend. I will send snail mail to the Queen, the RSPCA vets, the national newspapers, the RPRA, the wildlife police etc. It doesn't end here.

Cynthia


----------



## Nooti

Well they missed one vital word off when describing me - the word nurse.
I told Paneesha I was an avian vet nurse. Hope that doesn't complicate things.
Still doesn't stop the RSPCA admitting they got it wrong though.
Time this Heather Holmes was asked a direct question - name the disease which does this to birds?
As to pigeons being too difficult to catch.
Well that beggars belief!
Maybe she should go down there with a bag of seed. I'm sure the act of sprinkling it on the ground will be enough to open her eyes.


----------



## Nooti

Cynthia - sorry I missed your call. I was asleep curled up with the cat! Exhausting work being a TV star! (not)  
Got your message about writing again to the RSPCA which is probably the best way forward, although my description must be right this time. If it's wrong a second time then we lose credibility. Sure you can have a photo. Unfortunately I don't have one with a pigeon and I'm at home alone for a few days as Alan has gone away on a course this morning so he can't take a photo. Does it have to be a pigeon? I have this one here of me with an owl which I'll attach. It's only a year or two old. If you really want one with a pigeon I'll have to see if I can get someone to come round or wait until Alan gets home.
You know they've really p%*d me off now with their statement about it being a disease. Makes me sound like I'm just hysterical. Just what is the position and the qualifications of the person who says it is a disease?


----------



## Nooti

Why are my pictures now being embedded into the post? On my first few posts they came up as links?
.............puzzled................


----------



## Feefo

A single pic is embedded, a series of pics come up as links.

I want to write a newspaper article and submit it with suitable pictures to various papers . Is it okay to do that hat with the picture of you and the owl? They will often print stories like that (eg press releases) as they don't have to put any work into it except for the editing and title.

Also, I think that those of you that received replied from the RSPCA should write back to point out the inconsistencies between what they are being told and what the spokesperson has been saying.

The problem with what the RSPCA has said is that we don't want to advertise how very easy it is to catch hungry pigeons in winter in case the wrong people use that information.

Cynthia


----------



## John_D

i have emailed Julie Threlfall (RSPCA) to point out the apparent lack of comprehension displayed by Ms Holmes, and the evident left hand-right hand situation in the RSPCA, highlighting the likely damage to the RSPCA's reputation (as if it wasn't already!). Have also given her the link to the previous outbreak in 2002. 

John


----------



## Nooti

Sure Cynthia - if you want to use the piccy go ahead. I phoned the RSPCA this morning and asked the person who answered the phone who Heather Holmes was, and she didn't know. Had not heard of her. Whoever sdhe is she cannot be anyone high up - or with any much of a reputation


----------



## John_D

Who was the RSPCA person you had dealings with, Helen? Neither Ms Holmes nor Julie Threlfall, presumably.

My concern is that stupid, uninformed statements by the RSPCA may affect the view of the police.

John


----------



## Nooti

The inspector who phoned me? Her surname was Byrnes. Service number 729. She was an inspector - not office based or a "spokesperson" Pretty honest too. She told me she'd been out looking but hadn't seen any injured birds about.


----------



## bird brain

Hi 
I have just read the newspaper article, and on phone AGAIN! to the RSPCA , I can't believe that they are still saying this is caused by a disease, GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! It's makin me soooo mad, and them saying so in the newspaper is playing it down I kinda lost my cool a little, I asked if this spokeswoman 'Heather Holmes', or whoever had made the decision that," it probably was a disease", had even SEEN one of these poor pigeons, as I had, close up and it 100% was NOT!! a disease and also that the birds were EASY!! to catch, as I'm no expert but I caught SEVEN! pigeons fairly easily in a space of about half an hour on Saturday and around an hour on Sunday, so whoever was trying to get them, wasn't trying very hard! 
I also told them , I didn't think that their left hand didn't know what their right hand was doing as yet again I had to go through the whole story again, and they wanted to know what happened to the pigeons, and where they were now, so once again I gave them Helen's number.

They also took my number and said they would be in touch..... but I've heard that before. 

Disease.... HA!!! how ignorant are they?

sorry to rant on, but this has really got me going
Lesley


----------



## Maggie-NC

They sound like a bunch of ***n idiots. Pigeons are pretty easily caught and if this "Heather" would be more aware of facts before spouting off her mouth she would know these birds were deliberately damaged.

Helen, you and the owl are gorgeous.

Maggie


----------



## EdMurray

I`ve been watching this thread develop and I want to thank everyone who has been trying to help these poor pigeons. My sister and I have been emailing the RSPCA too about it...haven`t received any replies yet. Our emails have been asking them to name the disease which could do this so I`m not suprised by their silence.

I have no faith in the RSPCA.
3 years ago, my sister and I used to take our dogs for a walk at the local boating lake and we noticed several very young geese with that terrible fishing line around their feet. They were hobbled as the fishing line had actually entwined both feet.
We tried to catch them but couldn`t as they would take to the water. Of course, we thought the answer was to call the RSPCA. Well, we called and called for over two weeks and every time we had to go through the same rigmaroll...what`s your name, where are you calling from, what`s your phone number, what`s your address, have you ever called us before...it drove us bloody nuts.
We never spoke to the same person twice and we kept asking them to make a record of our calls and our information so that we didn`t have to keep repeating it every time we called. They kept giving us "incident numbers" to tell whoever we called but that never worked either. 
Well, in the end we gave up. Their responses to us were contradictory and dismissive. Sometimes they told us that an inspector had been out and could not see the geese and then other times we were told that no one had been out but they would send someone, but first we (the RSPCA) must take your details and information again. I`m not kidding you, it nearly made us scream with frustration.
In the end I had enough, told them they were useless and how it would have been a different tale if there had been tv cameras there...I cited the case on their tv show where they had gone to all kinds of lengths to catch a very illusive waterbird with an injured wing (if I remember correctly), and yet they couldn`t be bothered to come out and catch a couple of poor geese with terrible tangled feet that were getting worse day by day...you know the way that stuff tightens over time.
Anyway, in the end my sister and I managed to pressgang some of the kids that played down by the lake and with their help and a couple of huge white sheets, we got the geese cornered and caught and got the damn fishing line off them. What a relief that was.

I just wanted to relate that tale in support of those here who have dealt with the RSPCA and had little joy and who instead have took it upon themsleves to do something about the awful and sad events surrounding these poor pigeons.
I take my hat off to you all...and woe to whoever is perpetrating these wicked crimes.

Best wishes to everyone and their birds and whatever other creatures you may be keeping safe from harm.
Ed.


----------



## Feefo

Well done with the catching of the geese!

In my area we are so lucky to have an effective Swan and Water Bird Rescue
organisation.

Cynthia


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## LondonPigeon

its very sad and annoying to hear these stories of the RSPCA 
we dont have any trust in them anymore

Nooti I like the picture of the owl its very nice, is the picture from the 1980's,? Becuase of the glasses and colour,


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## Nooti

Maggie - you are too kind to me. I have a few more grey hairs and wrinkles now. And the glasses are different. 
Didn't think they looked so old fashioned as to be from the 1980s though. 
It's taken only a couple of years ago and they are my reading glasses - which I deliberatley have larger than fashion dictates so I can see through them! I have seriously degenerative eyesight in the left eye and my lens has to be quite thick. Consequently smaller rimmed glasses are more difficult to fit. Have to think myself lucky though. My left eye could be like my right eye which doesn't work at all due to a childhood illness when I was three. I'm always glad of small mercies! At least I can still see the pigeons! (See I kept on topic there)


----------



## kittypaws

*E-mail to RSPCA*

I have just responded back to "Julie" at the RSPCA asking her why she indicated in her e-mail to me that they were trying to do something before any more birds were attacked. 

I asked her what type of illness, Heather Holmes was talking about to cause these injuries and I guess Helen, that you still have the bodies of the 6 poor creatures put to sleep. Perhaps the RSPCA would like their vets to examine the birds and see that it is no illness. Have you offered the birds to them yet? Or maybe just a couple so if they do say " oh yes it is an illness!!" and retain the bodies you could get a 2nd opinion with the other birds from an independent vet. 

I am not doubting your diagnosis at all Helen as you know you are right but maybe someone else confirming that deliberate mutilation has taken place may help the case along.

Anyway we keep fighting for the cause.

Tania


----------



## John_D

I think Julie is going to get a few emails, Tania.

It's this Holmes person (who even the RSPCA don't seem to know!) who's the problem. I have asked Julie to kindly look into the 'confusion'

John


----------



## Nooti

Hi Tania
Yes I still have the bodies, and it's not just my diagnosis - it is Laura's diagnosis too, and she's a qualified practicing vet. How much more convincing do the silly beggars need?


----------



## bird brain

Hi there
I watched the news broadcast, which Helen and I took part in, It was repeated at least 3 times over the evening. There were some strange comments, by a couple of members of the public, but I thought it went pretty well, especially Helen, who really got her point across untill the end, when a statement by the rspca was shown and read out by the reporter, it went like this:

"It's hard to imagine someone capturing them, and then ripping 
their beaks off without damaging their heads... it's more likely some disease...."


 I'm speechless, is having half your face taken off not damaging enough?

Helen I got you a copy and will get it to you asap.

Lesley


----------



## Birdmom4ever

That's an excellent picture of you and the owl, Helen. And I think that in the newspaper stories it was obvious *you* were the one who knew what she was talking about. Heather Holmes came across as an idiot. No one in their right mind, seeing that photo and hearing what you said, would believe this was caused by a disease. But it's wildly frustrating that the ridiculous "disease" theory keeps getting repeated.


----------



## Nooti

Thanks Lesley
Getting pretty p$&%ed off with this disease theory now............................


----------



## kittypaws

*Sorry Helen*

Of course you took them to Laura - I do recall that - I think when I posted I was seeing red as are most of the members here must have too when they saw that stupid statement by the RSPCA. It looks as though the paper had the picture too of the first one that Diane took. That must have been pretty awful for anyone to look at - I know it shocked the socks off me....

Anyone with half a brain cell could see that this wasn't a disease - duh

Tania x


----------



## Camrron

It's very puzzling that the RSPCA went to the trouble to offer a prepared statement for the media and did not address this situation directly. As in having a live person on hand for a comment. 

Also odd that the Holmes person isn't even known to them. Is this how they avoid the tough questions? I have to wonder if the politics and the optics of this situation has not clouded their resolve to deal with this problem head-on. I cannot imagine that with their expertise they actually believe what they are saying about this problem being caused by diease. In other words I am suggesting that their comments to the media were deliberately misleading for the public so that they would not therefore have to waste any resources on an investigation.

I think I am right on this one. Even the RSPCA thinks pigeons are pests! Shame on them. If even one singe dog was found with a lopped off tail they would calling for a hanging.

Cameron


----------



## bird brain

On the rspca website, there is a special number for the media and press to contact them, I wonder if this leads to the press office and Heather Holmes ?

Lesley


----------



## Feather

I am going to express my worst fear about this situation. I'm afraid that if more people think that the pigeons are diseased that they will try ways to get rid of them. What on earth was she thinking? RSPCA has hurt them more than helped them. I guess this is what I'll write in my next e-mail. 

And what do they base a statement like that on?

Feather


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## Maggie-NC

My God, Feather, I hadn't even thought of that angle. But you're absolutely right. Can someone stuff Heather's mouth over there. 

Maggie


----------



## kittypaws

*Oooohhh Maggie*

You are not one to mince words are you? If you view the other thread about the RSPCA's refusal to help then you will see that Helen has spoken to someone sensible at the RSPCA and that Heather has put her size nines in by mouthing off about diseases and making the RSPCA look very silly.....  

Tania


----------



## Maggie-NC

Hi Tania, one of my shortcomings is that I am not tactful sometimes but in this case I meant what I said. I have kept up with both threads and I'm really pleased that other people are willing to take a stand on this. I hope a retraction is made but I worry that some people who saw Heather's statement may not read the retraction and have the mind set that the pigeons are diseased.

Yall just keep up the good work and if I can send any more e-mails let me know.

Maggie


----------



## diane fortune

Hi there,
just thought I would let you all know that I have also emailed the RSPCA and asked them to ask Ms Holmes what is the disease that cuts a birds beak off in a straight line (emphasize CUTS as Ms Holmes had said 'ripped off') and also cuts through the beak and the tongue of one of them. The bird in the picture in reality looked fit and well, apart from having no beak of course. What I did observe was that to take a drink these birds had to put their whole face in the puddles. I would imagine that it wouldn't take too long for infection to set in resulting in the bird looking like the first one I saw. I have not had a reply yet?
Diane


----------



## bird brain

hiya
One of my son's, Paul, who is 16, tell's me that some of the kid's at school have little video clip's on their mobile phones, of people being cruel to animal's, it's a step up from the 'happy slapping' craze the kids had.
He suggested that this may be the reason for somebody mutilating the pigeons..........I reeeally hope he's wrong

Lesley


----------



## Feather

I e-mailed them as well asking what facts they based that statement about the diseased pigeons on. I also told them that it was very easy to catch pigeons, and as already been stated that when half a birds face has been cut off it was indeed a head injury. 

Naturally I added my fear about the statement causing more harm to pigeons.

By the way Helen, you will make a beautiful bride! 
And Leslie your not a birdbrain at all.

Best Wishes,
Feather


----------



## bird brain

feather your too kind  but you wouldn't have said that last week, when I locked myself INSIDE! my car, I was stuck for about an hour, and had to call out the AA to get me out ( I had activated an anti hijack feature I didn't even know the car had!!)  

Diane, I'm sure every time you walk through the shopping centre your eye's are peeled.... scanning every pigeon to check it's beak is there, and I'm sure, you'll do this for a very long time (if not forever), I pray that you wont, but if you ever do see another pigeon (or any other bird come to that) which has been injured and you need any help, don't hesitate to contact me, if you need my number just PM me and I will send it to you.



Lesley


----------



## kittypaws

*Once a pigeon person*



bird brain said:


> Diane, I'm sure every time you walk through the shopping centre your eye's are peeled.... scanning every pigeon to check it's beak is there, and I'm sure, you'll do this for a very long time (if not forever),


Once you begin to notice pigeons, as Lesley says, you just can't help it.

Someone once said to me after another pick-up " How do you see these birds - I never see them" to which I basically said - " Well I look at them, carefully, and in the places where they may be such as in doorways etc". 

How many times have we ever rescued a pigeon, say in a busy place where most people haven't even noticed it all fluffed up or clearly in distress or if they have - they just shake their heads, perhaps thinking " Poor thing" but don't actually stop to help. 

I think most of us at Pigeons.com would stop and help our feathered friends.

It's great that you Lesley have offered Diane your contacts so that she can call you if she sees anymore pidgies in distress. 

Tania x


----------



## Feefo

> Once you begin to notice pigeons, as Lesley says, you just can't help it.


I call that developing "pigeon conciousness", Tania.

I used to often find injured birds and take them to the birdman, but for some reason never found a sick or injured pigeon until 1999. Now if I walk through the city center I have to make certain that I am carrying a shopper (to smuggle birds home in a taxi), my taxi fare, and my "foot repair kit" just in case I come across one that is hobbling, fluffed, seed tossing, dropping seed, has a swollen throat or is just not taking off when I know it should be taking off.

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws

*Pigeon Kit!*



cyro51 said:


> Now if I walk through the city center I have to make certain that I am carrying a shopper (to smuggle birds home in a taxi), my taxi fare, and my "foot repair kit" just in case I come across one that is hobbling, fluffed, seed tossing, dropping seed, has a swollen throat or is just not taking off when I know it should be taking off.
> 
> Cynthia


Cynthia, I too, always have in my rucksack, a carrier bag which contains a teatowel to wrap any "would-be patients", a map of another Wildlife Centre which I have never been to but on the off chance I can't get to London Wildcare, the address of two lovely ladies that run "Pigepn Recovery" in Sutton ( where I also have not been too but is recommended) and a small hot waterbottle, because I once recued two squabs from scaffolding from where I was working. The workmen knew that I was worried about the pigeons and one day told me that it was the day the nest had to go, so I took the squabs ( feeling mighty guilty from moving mum and the babies were so small) and carefully trying to keep them warm until, I got to London Wildcare ( a kind colleague drove me) who assured me they would help them. When I got there, the squabs were still alive, but barely and the nurse was unable to save them, despite placing them in an incubator. She very kindly told me that for the next time, if I manage to keep them warm with a warm hot water bottle, they might have a chance. 

The hottle water bottle, which is heart-shaped ( a friend gave it to me when she knew I wanted one), has yet to be used but you never know!! 

And yes Cynthia, visits into town centres are always wih "pigeon radar" switched on....... 

Tania x


----------



## Feefo

Hi Tania,

The hot water bottle is a brilliant idea! I will get a liitle one and fill it before going out so that by the time I get any pigeon home it will be on the way to being ready for rehydration. 

I read in a Bill Bryson book that they don't have "hotties" in the US...can this be true? 

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

I read in a Bill Bryson book that they don't have "hotties" in the US...can this be true? 

Cynthia[/QUOTE]


What is it?

Reti


----------



## bird brain

Hi Cynthia , 
You know your so right....... that once you find a poorly pigeon......you always seem to be finding them..... then the poorly pidgies start to find you... and your family!!...
And now, whenever I see any pigeon's, without even thinking about it , I automatically give them a quick look over, just incase...... Only today I spotted a poor little pigeon, it had horrific injuries to it's feet and they seemed to be invisible to everyone else (until I pointed it out to people, when they wondered why I was trying to catch it) 

Lesley

check out the thread, 'Horrific foot injuries due to cotton, if you want to know more


----------



## Maggie-NC

This may sound wierd but my husband will use the plastic bag he carries the seed in to place the pigeon. He tucks him down in the bag and keeps his head exposed. It helps keep the body heat in until he can get him home.

He improvises some too. If he hasn't seen a pigeon that needs help and has disposed of the plastic bag on the way back to the car and then sees a pigeon, he can often find a paper bag left by the winos. He has brought many home that way, plus coat pockets.

Maggie


----------



## Feefo

Hi Reti,

This link shows our "hotties". I think that one of the heart shaped ones could be the one Tania has. I have the rubber and stone ones. The stone ones keep hot a lot longer.

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&q=hot%20water%20bottle&spell=1&sa=N&tab=wi

Cynthia


----------



## kittypaws

*Hot Water Bottle*

The heart shape one is exactly the one I have!! 

How fitting for pidgies.


----------



## Reti

Cynthia, we do have them. 
I bought one last year for the pijies. I use them for heat, when I am not home, cause I don't like to leave the heating pad on when I am out.

Reti


----------



## mr squeaks

I just bought a heating pad that automatically turns off after an hour. Can be a pain if one wants it on longer!


----------



## Feather

bird brain said:


> feather your too kind  but you wouldn't have said that last week, when I locked myself INSIDE! my car, I was stuck for about an hour, and had to call out the AA to get me out ( I had activated an anti hijack feature I didn't even know the car had!!)
> 
> Diane, I'm sure every time you walk through the shopping centre your eye's are peeled.... scanning every pigeon to check it's beak is there, and I'm sure, you'll do this for a very long time (if not forever), I pray that you wont, but if you ever do see another pigeon (or any other bird come to that) which has been injured, and you need any help, don't hesitate to give me a call, my numbers are:
> 
> home: 016107364947
> Mobile: 07811596558
> 
> Lesley


That is so funny Leslie! I'm sure it wasn't very funny at the time, but you did have me throw my head back in laughter. I didn't even know they had a hi-jack feature, so I might be getting locked in my car as well. Now that could happen to anyone, it still doesn't qualify you as a B.B..
It looks like Diane will never have to tackle a situation (such as this) alone
again.

Feather


----------



## Camrron

cyro51 said:


> I call that developing "pigeon conciousness", Tania.
> 
> I used to often find injured birds and take them to the birdman, but for some reason never found a sick or injured pigeon until 1999.
> Cynthia


It is pigeon conscienceness I think. You said that well Cynthia. I had often seen birds in distress in the past but just didn't know it until many years later. I didn't know the signs or the symptoms of serious problems at the time and I just thought "Oh, they are wild they will be OK and make it on their own". If I only knew. Now I watch them constantly but always feel bad about the past situations and how limited my understanding of them was. Bird conscienceness is such a right term in my mind. It really upsets me though about the past though, to this day. I could kick myself.

Cameron


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## kittypaws

Camrron said:


> If I only knew. Now I watch them constantly but always feel bad about the past situations and how limited my understanding of them was. Bird conscienceness is such a right term in my mind. It really upsets me though about the past though, to this day. I could kick myself.
> 
> Cameron


Me too Cameron,

When I think of my inexperience and some of those birds, that well I could have helped but didn't for various reasons, because I knew no better or given bad advice, I too feel guilty. But we live and we learn from our past mistakes, and now I know better I hope that every casualty that passes my way, be it bird or animal, I can make the right choice for them. 

Tania


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## Feefo

Hi Reti,

Do you call them hot water bags, rather than hot water bottles?

Cynthia


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## Reti

cyro51 said:


> Hi Reti,
> 
> Do you call them hot water bags, rather than hot water bottles?
> 
> Cynthia


I asked for a hot water bottle and the pharmacist knew right away what I meant, I think that's what we call them.

Reti


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## Nooti

I now have the TV clip of the Middleton pigeons in digital format. It is an MPeg and can be played on any computer in Windowns Media Player. In its zipped form it is 17+mgs which is small for a video file. Am happy to email to anyone who wants it. Lesley, will post this back to you in the next couple of days, and thanks very much.


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## LondonPigeon

would it be ok to put on www.youtube.com

hopefully there wont be legal issues with the middleton interviewers?


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## Feefo

Can you e-mail it to me please Helen?

Thanks


Cynthia


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## AliBlack

Me too please! And thanks for all the PMV info this week Helen!




cyro51 said:


> Can you e-mail it to me please Helen?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Cynthia


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## TAWhatley

Please send it to me also, Helen, and I'll put it up on my website for a least a bit of time so everybody can view it. I'm sure it's pretty sizeable when unzipped.

Terry


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## Reti

TAWhatley said:


> Please send it to me also, Helen, and I'll put it up on my website for a least a bit of time so everybody can view it. I'm sure it's pretty sizeable when unzipped.
> 
> Terry


That would be great, Terry.

Reti


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## Nooti

sorry I'm at work and don't have anyone's email address here on my laptop. Tried to send via private email here on the site but you can't attach files. 
Alison is the only person I can send the file too. If you email me. I can add your addy to my address book here on my laptop.
Alison, I'll send the file to you now


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## kittypaws

*Clip*

Helen,

I can forward the e-mail with the attachment that you sent me today to Terry as I have her e-mail address.

I must admit, my rusty old computer wouldn't let me open it properly so I still haven't seen you do the intrepid investigator bit. 

I will e-mail it to Terry now and hopefully she can load it as she says so that everyone can see. 

Tania

PS - Well I would try and e-mail it but my computer keeps jamming up. I'll try a bit later.


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## kittypaws

*On its way - hopefully*

Terry - it is on it way but by jiminy is it taking an age to scan by my anti-virus system. At this rate I guess you'll get it eh in 100 years time!! 

........still scanning.........


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## TAWhatley

kittypaws said:


> Terry - it is on it way but by jiminy is it taking an age to scan by my anti-virus system. At this rate I guess you'll get it eh in 100 years time!!
> 
> ........still scanning.........


Haven't seen it come through yet but am checking frequently.

Terry


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## kittypaws

*Sorry*

I am having problems sending this through. 

Helen, I have your latest e-mail - can you forward the clip directly onto Terry. I seem to be having "Computer overload"!!!! 

Tania


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## TAWhatley

Helen or anyone .. please send it to [email protected]. Thanks!

Terry


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## Nooti

Terry, I have sent it to you
Has it not arrived yet? I also sent it to John, and to Cynthia but it failed to reach her. I got a message back saying the email was larger than the permitted allowance.


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## kittypaws

*Fingers Crossed*

Terry,

I think it has gone through OK now!!

Tania x


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## TAWhatley

*Video Is Now Up*

http://www.rims.net/ChannelM.mpg

Terry


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## pigeonpoo

Thanks for the link Terry.

It makes my blood boil listening to the statement from the RSPCA. Have they yet corrected this statement? 

'Poo


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## Maggie-NC

Well done, ladies. Of course, most people will believe the RSPCA statement but if they look at the pictures there can be no doubt whatsoever this was an act of cruelty beyond comprehension to anyone who loves any living creature. 

Maggie


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## LondonPigeon

the ladies spoke well

i dont know which usernames they are on this forum

but i was very angry to see rspca's statment about them having disease espeiclaly when everyone is paniking about avian flu  

those poor birds


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## Feefo

Well, the last word was that Middleton Police were calling it an act of cruelty.

Helen and Leslie came across very well.

The RSPCA lived up to Terry's description of them.

Cynthia


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## John_D

Our gals did a good job there, I thought. Well done you two!

Thanks, Terry, for putting the clip up for us

John


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## Birdmom4ever

Lesley and Helen, you came across very well. And despite the RSPCA's ridiculous statement the story ended with the reporter saying "acts of cruelty." I believe that is what will stick in people's minds, along with Lesley and Helen's statements. Bravo, Ladies!


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## TAWhatley

LondonPigeon said:


> the ladies spoke well
> 
> i dont know which usernames they are on this forum


Lesley is bird brain and Helen is Nooti. Very well done, ladies!

Terry


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## LondonPigeon

TAWhatley said:


> Lesley is bird brain and Helen is Nooti. Very well done, ladies!
> 
> Terry


Leslie has a nice car,

in the video they say they she put the pigeons in the car, it must have been a shocking site first seeing the birds


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