# Grizzle and ???



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

Hi all,

I was wondering whether anyone could tell me why this young grizzle of mine is so very light? This is the second light bird like this from a blue indigo T-pattern (split for dilute, brown and check) cock and blue bar het. grizzle hen (the might have a little bit of pied too - difficult to see in grizzles). 

She is going through her first moult now, as you can see from the pictures:









Her flights and tail feathers only have color at the very tips, and the color is very light and faded.









(again, excuse the picture quality, I really can make birds with great body and type look awful. Maybe my birds are just not photogenic, just like me)

I know some of you are going to ask whether they were in an individual breeding cage, the answer is no. BUT. She is not homozygous grizzle as there were no grizzle cocks in the loft with this pair at the time of breeding. Also she had normal down at hatching just like her brother (a beautiful blue T-pattern grizzle who is currently moulting into his dark-peppered shield), and her eyes are not false pearl.

Does anyone have any ideas? Is this a typical expression of indigo grizzle?


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

to me she looks like she is grizzle & heavely pied, i have a hen & cock bird just like her and was told thats what they are. I was also told that pieds & grizzles with little white, when bred their babies will have more white on them, each time they breed their young are more and more white..


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a het grizzle, het indigo bird that looks just like that. It may have something to do with the indigo being involved. Usually het grizzles are NOT this white. Of course the father of mine is a splash, and the presence of piebald can put a lot of white on otherwise mostly colored grizzles.
Your bird does look pied, in my opinion. I would say it was barred and that's what made it look so light (barred het grizzles can be quite lightly colored), but that isn't possible if one of the parents was t-pattern split for check.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I took a look at mine and it has much more color in the wings than yours. However, it started out looking like yours as a baby, mostly white, and put in some bronzing in the wings as an adult. Yours may do the same??


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## horseart4u (Jun 16, 2011)

hey Becky.. that " stork " i have the white with black tail, he too has gotten more color on his wings, in black, and a reddish brown speckling on his nape of his neck.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have a het grizzle, het indigo bird that looks just like that. It may have something to do with the indigo being involved. Usually het grizzles are NOT this white. Of course the father of mine is a splash, and the presence of piebald can put a lot of white on otherwise mostly colored grizzles.
> Your bird does look pied, in my opinion. I would say it was barred and that's what made it look so light (barred het grizzles can be quite lightly colored), but that isn't possible if one of the parents was t-pattern split for check.


The reason I know she is pied is because she had a marbled beak at hatching, just like her pied siblings. (I have been trying to keep track of my birds that have recessive peed trait, andboth parents of this grizzle have given me heavily pied youngsters.)

The mother of this bird is a barred grizzle, but she shows the proper dark tipped flights and tail that is expected. I so think this bird will moult in a darker shield, like grizzle checks tend to do.

Thanks for the replies!


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

If


rudolph.est said:


> this bird will moult in a darker shield, like grizzle checks tend do.


that means Undergrizzle is involved.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

dimerro said:


> If that means Undergrizzle is involved.


Hi Dina,

Could you explain what you mean by this statement?

Is it only undergrizzle that molts in darker in the shield?

I can get you a picture of the mother and father, but I always thought the lightening at the base of the cock's feathers were due to indigo, not undergrizzle.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

All of my grizzles, for the most part, always get lighter, not darker. If they start out dark grizzled, they usually don't change much at all.

But yes if your bird has lightening at the base of the feathers, that is undergrizzle. The only thing indigo washes out is the tail bar.

I know I posted this already but I didn't give much detail. I looked at my indy grizzle and it is a lot darker in the shield than yours. But I keep thinking it did start out a lot lighter and moulted in more bronzey/rusty feathers in the shield, and more blue flecks on the head/neck.


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I know I posted this already but I didn't give much detail. I looked at my indy grizzle and it is a lot darker in the shield than yours. But I keep thinking it did start out a lot lighter and moulted in more bronzey/rusty feathers in the shield, and more blue flecks on the head/neck.


My bird is moulting now, and her neck especially is darkening quite a bit, though even the new shield feathers are very light. She has also thrown one or two of her flights, and those look to be darker at the edges now as well.



MaryOfExeter said:


> But yes if your bird has lightening at the base of the feathers, that is undergrizzle. The only thing indigo washes out is the tail bar.


If her father is indeed under-grizzle, how would I know? Under-grizzle (Ug) is an incomplete dominant if I remember correctly (Frank Masco says it is recessive and Huntley says partial dominant). None of this cock's other non-indigo offspring show any white at the base of the feather, while all his indigo offspring does. Are indigo and under-grizzle closely linked on a chromosome?

What does grizzle and under-grizzle look like together? Or is under-grizzle invisible in that case?



MaryOfExeter said:


> All of my grizzles, for the most part, always get lighter, not darker. If they start out dark grizzled, they usually don't change much at all.


All my grizzles get darker with the first moult, even the bars. They usually start out with almost completely white shields (the blue bars show the bar in the nest, while the T-patterns show flecking grizzling and no bar). These grizzles also start with a very grizzled neck which also darkens at the first moult. 

I hope Dina replies too, but I will send a mail or two to the other experts.


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