# Bad toss???



## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

Any of you guys ever lost half your race team on one toss. Saturday last I tossed 60 birds lost 34 of them. Three of the birds that did return came home shot up. Two died and one with a bad leg looks to be making it. The final bird to die was carrying two 71/2 or 8 shot pellets in the breast the other one that died almost as soon as it arrived home was shot from the rear with a pellet in the intestines. I simply can’t for the life of figure out what happened. The birds that did return were all different ages, as in some were 7 months and some were 3 months while some of the older birds came home 2 days after the toss??? I simply can’t figure this one out…

They had all flown home from this toss before, most of them a couple of times.. ( 30 miles)


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Can`t believe your wondering what happened to your birds....You had birds come home shot up....I`m no brain surgeon,but I would say some guys are out there waiting for you to release your pigeons....Go someplace else...DO NOT train from where you just did....Alamo


----------



## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

No brainer??? I have tossed there before and they came home just fine. I find it hard to believe that guys wanting to kill pigeons would be willing to sit and wait for me to toss. Hell I didn’t even know I was going to toss there until an hour before. The weeks and days in-between would make waiting problematic to say the least. I know personally of no other pigeon men in this area that toss from that point. You may well be correct in your assumption, but I still feel there is more here than just some gun happy fools ambushing my birds. I am not inexperienced with shotguns, the killing some 30 odd birds at one go would be some excellent shooting to say the least.. 


Trust me I’ll not be flying from that point again…


----------



## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

pooch88 said:


> No brainer??? I have tossed there before and they came home just fine. I find it hard to believe that guys wanting to kill pigeons would be willing to sit and wait for me to toss. Hell I didn’t even know I was going to toss there until an hour before. The weeks and days in-between would make waiting problematic to say the least. I know personally of no other pigeon men in this area that toss from that point. You may well be correct in your assumption, but I still feel there is more here than just some gun happy fools ambushing my birds. I am not inexperienced with shotguns, the killing some 30 odd birds at one go would be some excellent shooting to say the least..
> 
> 
> Trust me I’ll not be flying from that point again…


Well Pooch88: its not dove season yet so I have to believe that someone targeted your birds because they saw where you were releasing at. Could be any number of reasons for that, to include guys who were simply poaching to guys who are afraid of you and your birds so they tried to take them out. 

As was stated before choose a different release/training point


----------



## pigeonflier (May 4, 2014)

If they were targeted at the point where you release them,, odds are you would have heard the banging! After they are already flying the birds are to high up for 7 shot to do much damage. I would guess that your birds got lost and after they searched out a water source is where they ran into gun fire. I would also guess that most are just simple lost cause as you stated getting 30 birds is a bit of a stretch for any 10 guns. I have lost 40 out of 60 before in a single toss. Bad tosses happen and only god knows what causes them. This time of year everybody is training young and its not uncommon to get tangled up with another flock. Young birds love to follow and if they have not learned to break yet,, then they are 150 miles out of their way before they know it!! Sorry to hear about your loss,, but them sorta things happen in pigeon racing!!


----------



## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

Some long time flyers in the past referred to "the zone of disorientation" ? That is the zone between 20 and 40 miles from the loft. It is the zone where most of the trouble and losses occur when training young birds.Various factors or events can get them off course and they can become disorientated resulting in long delays and/or losses. Some flyers, including myself, just avoid the zone entirely and jump the birds right from 20 miles to 40 miles.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Im gonna say that is there a hunting season where you are and is it open right now? Or is is just a U.S. thing where everyone has a gun and can shoot up birds whenever they want, that makes me good and sick to hear about. I would either not fly till u know where they were shot at, or if the season is open. I wonder if when shot AT and the flock would scatter and maybe did loops around the area if one pigeon, mate or loft buddy went down, would the other come back around looking for it or go to ground with it as mates and friends, or follow eachother and then were just used as target practice at that point, that is horrid. So sad.


----------



## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

sorry to here about your loss, I never group toss my birds, but I also only raised 16 this year and had them 46 miles already and not one bird lost, but to me single tossing is the way to go, for one thing when you toss a bird by it self most times it will climb higher then a group of birds and get out of reach of a shot gun, as Alamo said they got shot up by someone, I would not toss there anymore just my opinion.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

So sad humans can shoot them like hell. Don't know why they were targeted but a heart threatening experience. So sorry to hear.


----------



## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

Thank you for the response folks. I will be taking my much reduced race team out this weekend for the first toss since my disaster. I will be releasing them from a totally different direction as last time... We’ll see... 

The way things now stand I have to get back to training or the season will get away from me all together...


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Probably wont matter where you release them from as THEY will take the same flight path back home, and if the shootings occured closer to home, they will again be in the line of fire. Hopefully it was a one time fluke from some sicko that needs to turn the gun on himself. Let us know if they make is home safely, fingers crossed.


----------



## Flying LV (Oct 7, 2008)

Just remember there are some people/groups that target the feral birds for sport, down here they can pop them anytime of year. My cousin has always said he hates YB season down here, since it coincides with the opening of the dove season in our part of the state. 

Texas is split into 3 zones, the North and Central start at the same time, South starts 2 weeks later. We happen to be 15 miles from the Central/South zone line, so we train right up to the zone change until the opening day of South zone everyday and then its Monday thru Thursday to avoid the hunters. There's no other way around it because if we start too much sooner we're flying in 100° plus days, OBs might be okay, but the YBs still need the cooler temps. And any later and all of the races are blow homes, which defeats the purpose.


----------



## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

That's what happens when an emotianly compromised person gets a hold of a gun. These so called "hunters" keep scores especially on racing bands.
I bet that this act will be posted on web soon. Check web pages that support this kind of activity related to your area, you might catch the nut. The only thing is the fine is $5 a bird however the hunting out of season will carry a heavier charge you need to contact the game warden.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

sdymacz said:


> That's what happens when an emotianly compromised person gets a hold of a gun. These so called "hunters" keep scores especially on racing bands.
> I bet that this act will be posted on web soon. Check web pages that support this kind of activity related to your area, you might catch the nut. The only thing is the fine is $5 a bird however the hunting out of season will carry a heavier charge you need to contact the game warden.


Wow thats horrible, cant believe the fine wouldnt be much bigger for that. 
How did the birds do on their next toss? Did they all make it home safe.


----------



## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

CBL said:


> Wow thats horrible, cant believe the fine wouldnt be much bigger for that.
> How did the birds do on their next toss? Did they all make it home safe.


Yep. They have been out twice w/ no problem... Thanks


----------



## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

sdymacz said:


> That's what happens when an emotianly compromised person gets a hold of a gun. These so called "hunters" keep scores especially on racing bands.
> I bet that this act will be posted on web soon. Check web pages that support this kind of activity related to your area, you might catch the nut. The only thing is the fine is $5 a bird however the hunting out of season will carry a heavier charge you need to contact the game warden.


In many localities pigeons are considered pests. There is no season because they are not "game" animals


----------



## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

CBL said:


> Im gonna say that is there a hunting season where you are and is it open right now? Or is is just a U.S. thing where everyone has a gun and can shoot up birds whenever they want, that makes me good and sick to hear about. I would either not fly till u know where they were shot at, or if the season is open. I wonder if when shot AT and the flock would scatter and maybe did loops around the area if one pigeon, mate or loft buddy went down, would the other come back around looking for it or go to ground with it as mates and friends, or follow eachother and then were just used as target practice at that point, that is horrid. So sad.


I read this last week and decided to ignore it. I have taken up for some of your remarks in the past as an opinion, not ignorance. I am sad and sorry that you have such a sour attitude towards guns and the U.S. I will keep my other thoughts to myself.....Jim


----------



## Pollo70 (Jan 3, 2012)

I have had it happen to me it sucks we as breeders and flyers have no control over what hazards the birds encounter when road training, however it pisses you off when birds arrive with bb 's from a shot gun in them I also learned the hard way the dove season starts in September here so I don't road train out of city limits during that month I hold them back it's not worth putting the birds at risk cause some "A hole" that can't tell a flock of pigeons apart from a flock of doves.


----------



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

pigeonjim said:


> I read this last week and decided to ignore it. I have taken up for some of your remarks in the past as an opinion, not ignorance. I am sad and sorry that you have such a sour attitude towards guns and the U.S. I will keep my other thoughts to myself.....Jim


Well put....


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I second what pigeonjim and V-john said. Now with that said I do want to continue the discussion on bad young bird tosses. 

I have started a new program this year in which I train my young birds with my yearlings . I read about this and have heard several experienced fanciers talk on this subject . I make sure that in every basket of young birds ( babies in reality) I have at least 3 yearlings with them. The reason is that the yearling needs more training than most people give them and older birds say 2 years and up need less. Also the yearling will group up and keep the YBs in line and most time will leave the toss site faster and head straight home which is what you want after all . Its a natural part of life that the older teach the younger in any animal species . The second reason I do this is that you no longer need to baby the birds with meaningless 1/4 mile , 1 mile ,3 mile , 5 mile tosses. I started this year at 4 miles once, jumped to 12 miles twice, then on to 20 miles twice with very little problems or losses. I feel this is less stressful using less basketing and get out in distance where it does some good between 20 and 50 miles. I plan to have them out 50 miles by the end of next week , which will put me weeks ahead of where I'd be with only tossing young birds alone.


----------



## fadedracer (Jul 8, 2011)

dont you feel like that is just teaching them to follow your birds home? less thinking on there own?


----------



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Eric, I'm excited to hear how your birds do!


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

fadedracer said:


> dont you feel like that is just teaching them to follow your birds home? less thinking on there own?


Lets ask the question , What do you think the mental capability of a 12 week old baby birds is? My training objective is to build up confidence and develop the essential habits which we expect from them the rest of their lives as adult racers. What do we want? I want birds to leave the liberation spot quickly. Work their way home fast without deviating from the shortest road home. Not to stop and eat, drink, or splash around in some watering hole along the way. Avoid smash training tosses because the group wandered off course and chased other groups of birds . I think these are the best reasons to train your young birds with yearlings . I know others that use this technique and if there is a different way to teach these skills I'd like to hear but I will say that until I prove myself wrong I'm sticking to this plan. Remember that your yearling will benefit from this as well , you should see a difference in them as 2 year olds.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

V-John said:


> Eric, I'm excited to hear how your birds do!


Me too. we are going to race a different course this year because the AI . We will be racing from the south east , southern Wisconsin releases to the north . Our club has flown this course before and there is more chance to clash with other clubs that race from the west. We will have 2 short club races before we start with the federation as a tune up , this way as a club we are fairly close to each other compared to the entire federation. Also because we are on the long end their first race is 100 for them , we will be 170+ - .


----------



## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

ERIC K said:


> Lets ask the question , What do you think the mental capability of a 12 week old baby birds is? My training objective is to build up confidence and develop the essential habits which we expect from them the rest of their lives as adult racers. What do we want? I want birds to leave the liberation spot quickly. Work their way home fast without deviating from the shortest road home. Not to stop and eat, drink, or splash around in some watering hole along the way. Avoid smash training tosses because the group wandered off course and chased other groups of birds . I think these are the best reasons to train your young birds with yearlings . I know others that use this technique and if there is a different way to teach these skills I'd like to hear but I will say that until I prove myself wrong I'm sticking to this plan. Remember that your yearling will benefit from this as well , you should see a difference in them as 2 year olds.


Well at 12 weeks if the bird is a decent bird It can be single tossed at short distances. Back years ago. It was recommended to get 8 week old birds down the road at 1/2 mile then a mile. To get them coming home good. And I did it and it worked. BUT today HAWKS are a big set back. Far as yearlings While there may be nothing wrong. You are tringing your young birds. You want your young birds to Get home. and be selection They do. With out yearlings. But if yor method is helping for now use it. ButThe break in a race is the bird And the pack the bird flew with. Far as stopp over . Temps play a role when it is hot the birds set down for water. Any time say race day temps are above 85 degrees. And the distanice is above 200 miles several birds st down Condition and keeping condition Is a big key. Percent is the other only 10 percent are your best race birds. as young birds. And if flying old birds. A small few from the top 20 percent will come on and do better. Smart birds get home faster. As they figure out what direction they need faster. BUT agin if they get in group B instead of group A they until the break can fly a longer route. A lot of luck that day makes a win. Next day a different race is flew.


----------



## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

I can see the pro`s & con`s of training your YB`s with some yearlings....If you trained your YB`s out to 30/40 miles or more by themselves,and then added a few older birds for all the longer tosses,I would think this would be a little better for the "Head straight Home",on the line of flight training..Let the YB`s make some mistakes...They will learn from them...Then,by adding the yearling`s,you will be getting both training & learning to home in the "Straightest Line" possible....This year,my 1st toss was 10 miles....2nd toss 18 miles....3rd toss 30 miles....4th toss was 37 miles.....At the 4th toss,my birds made one turn,before going straight home(49 minutes)....That was the 1st time they made any kind of a turn at all....No old birds with them...Never have done that in 30 years of having race birds....Alamo


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I can't say that this is the only way to go and am sure young birds will home by themselves , single up if that's your thing . All I'm saying is this might help some people not mess up too bad. This isn't the first time I've used OBs with my YBs but with work and time restraints I feel I will have less chance of a smash toss. 

I know first hand that YBs will home from 15 or more miles first time out because I have tried it with some late born birds last year. Problem is I'm just not willing to risk a seasons breeding on chance that most will home first time from a distance like that. I'm sure single up tossing from 40 miles first time out over a few years time will sure show which breeders you should keep.


----------



## pigeonjim (May 12, 2012)

Eric, I have never mixed young birds with old birds, although you can see how fast late hatches mature when mixed in with the older young birds. A couple of seasons will tell the tale if you stick to it. I look forward to an update. Jim


----------



## pooch88 (Nov 17, 2013)

Darn, if this thread hasn’t taken on a life of its own. 

At any rate I would like to chime in here. I am a strong believer in tossing a few old birds (yearlings) with my young bird team when I am first getting started. In my opinion it helps move things along, at least till I get out to 50 miles. The toss I lost my birds on, I had several OB hens along and one of them never made it home. This is a first for me but as most of you know I am pretty much a rank beginner. 

At any rate I am tossing now on a daily basis and still using my OB’s on the first toss at most distances. I use the old birds from a toss station with my YB’s then the next day take just the YB’s back and toss them by themselves. This has been working well for me, at least for now.

I would like to thank all of you who have responded to my post about the “bad toss” I had several weeks back, I am still missing some 30 pigeons. At this point I don’t hold out much hope of seeing any of them again. Took an inventory the other day and was absolutely heart broken when I saw the quality of some of the birds I lost. I still have a good many of my better birds but the loss is not something I will soon forget. 

Thanks Again, Good Flying to All!!
Dave


----------



## heeler (Nov 19, 2013)

Dammit man, at the beginning of the year I got rid of some older birds that I didn't want to feed if I couldn't race em in YB's this year. After reading the last few post's from the much experienced racer's I think (no wait - I know) I missed a GRAND opportunity for my young birds to gain knowledge and learn to home faster. It just never crossed my mind in that way. Arrggghhhhh!
I will most deff be keeping several of this years yb's for next years teachers. The knowledge came along too late for me this year but next year, for sure.
Tim (Driftwood Loft)


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

Oh well then I feel good about never getting rid of my birds and I always let my young ones out with a few elders and if they want to fly, they follow if not they stay on roof and observe, which Im sure they are watching and learning.


----------



## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

CBL said:


> Oh well then I feel good about never getting rid of my birds and I always let my young ones out with a few elders and if they want to fly, they follow if not they stay on roof and observe, which Im sure they are watching and learning.


How many birds do you have? What breeds do you have that you are leaving out to fly around the loft?


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

One thing I forgot to mention is that my young birds out grew their section in the loft and last year I had YBs in the front room and I just left them in that room instead of moving them so when I started this year I put my YBs in a different room on the other side of the loft. That room is smaller and not wanting to croud the YBs I let them mix with my OBs. The scanner pads are all ready in place and the YB have learned to use the trap by watching the OBs. The only issue with this is the feed, but since my yearlings are still going on training tosses having them get the higher energy food is ok, plus they are finishing their molt so the extra proteins do them good for feather growth.


----------



## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> Lets ask the question , What do you think the mental capability of a 12 week old baby birds is? *My training objective is to build up confidence and develop the essential habits which we expect from them the rest of their lives as adult racers. What do we want? I want birds to leave the liberation spot quickly.* Work their way home fast without deviating from the shortest road home. Not to stop and eat, drink, or splash around in some watering hole along the way. Avoid smash training tosses because the group wandered off course and chased other groups of birds . I think these are the best reasons to train your young birds with yearlings . I know others that use this technique and if there is a different way to teach these skills I'd like to hear but I will say that until I prove myself wrong I'm sticking to this plan. Remember that your yearling will benefit from this as well , you should see a difference in them as 2 year olds.


As you've stated, if it works for you and others, then by all means continue doing so. But for beginners who may be reading this, I'd like to add that I think it's a bad idea. 

My training objectives are the same as yours. We just go about it in different ways. My belief is that old birds can indeed teach the young birds a thing or two, but you have to be careful about what it is exactly they are teaching them. My belief is that you are teaching them to follow. If you want them to create confidence, good liberation habits, and engage their born abilities, they need to do it by themselves and at a very young age (and yes, I think 12 weeks is the perfect age to do this). 

I single toss my bird and started them this year at 3 miles. I've tossed 25 birds at least 10 times including three times at 20 miles. I'll head to 30 miles tomorrow. I've only lost one bird. Every time they have hit the air, they have to make a decision on their own. And with success and repetition, it will become habit. They will know what to do without the aid of others. Early on, I don't care if they leave the liberation point quickly. I will teach them that later (it actually just happens on it's own as they get smarter). 

But anyway, to each his/her own. We all know that different techniques work well for different people. I just want other newbies who may be reading this thread to hear an alternate point of view so they can make an informed decision.

One other thing I'd like to add on the subject. I made a huge mistake this year and I would like to warn others about doing the same thing. I had two pairs of retired old birds in my young bird section. I figured it would do no harm. Well, the old birds did indeed teach the babies a thing or two, but in a bad way. My entire first round was settled with those four old birds in their section. The old birds taught them how to loft fly for 5 whole minutes. The babies would never route. It has taken me months to undo that pattern of behavior. *Never again will I mix old birds with young birds until after the young bird season.*


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

After reading what you think I realize that I never put a disclosure statement on my post. It should have said one way of training for people with limited time. I would love to have time to 3 toss my birds some times but I don't. Yes I said 3 toss not single toss because the person that I know who is the best pigeon guy around these parts told me that 3 birds will race each other home and his wife is there to call them in. True a single bird will need to do it on his own but if you don't wait long enough between tosses they will see each other and build a bad habit of hanging around the release point. Something to think about and like most people here agree that even a 12 week old will already have Homing ability.

Remember that the style of training I'm using has a two part plan which also includes yearlings. Just because that survived the YB season doesn't make them seasoned racers.

I hear you about lazy OBs but my YBs out number my OBs so when the doors of my loft open and I have 3 exits, after the first few birds take off you better duck, because the YBs are out of the loft like rockets.


----------



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

I singles tossed out to 80 miles or better. It was necessary being so far offline. I think that biggest benefit is that it develops and independence in the birds. Confidence too. I needed them to fly off and handle, and think on their own. Now, with that being said, if you don't wait long enough, it does create a bad habit of hanging around. I've found, that waiting five minutes usually is enough.
But like Eric said, its very time consuming. I have the time during the summer but not in the fall or spring.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I agree single might be better. When I single tossed my late hatches I had the basket in the truck with me and drove down a country road slowly and every so often I tossed a bird out the window never stopping. It does speed up the process in stead of waiting at one place. I last bird naturally has farther to go but there is alway flaws in a system. Some people will not like that but I want to assure you all that no birds were harmed in the process. I just don't have the time to single toss when you raise 80+ YBs.


----------



## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

I also wanted to add and ask if you guys that single up your young do this with yearlings too. I've found it is just as easy to loose yearlings as YBs so my thinking would be it is just as important to single up yearlings too. I guess I wouldn't start single tossing older birds unless they were given this type of training when they were younger.


----------



## V-John (May 15, 2008)

Eric, I dont single toss the yearlings simply because of time. Old bird season is in the spring, and I dont have the time. In the summer, with school being out I do have the time.
Like you Eric, I have too many birds this year to single toss so I'm small group tossing.


----------



## benjemon (Mar 28, 2014)

What do you mean by "loft fly" and "route?"


----------



## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

benjemon said:


> What do you mean by "loft fly" and "route?"


Loft fly is when you let your birds out of the loft to fly 

Route is when the birds start to fly out of site for an extend period of time and explore out of the immediate vicinity of the loft


----------

