# help!!!



## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi please can someone help me?
i have 2 baby pidges hatched 14th nov so are about 7 weeks old they are tumbler cross racers everything was ok on xmas day,woke up boxing day to find one of my babies on his side and had lost the use of his legs he is off his food lost weight overnight!
he is panting and opening his beak slightly moreso when he tries to get up to poop!
his poop is now watery and green as he hasnt eaten since sunday morning
he was drinking but now wont drink either i made him water with gloucose and honey in
i bought ivermectin drops and put some on the back of his neck because a lady in a pet store said he might have air sac mites?
is it a calcium deficiency?
there is no vets until wednesday because of xmas hols
please can someone help me im worried sick,he's not been in contact with outdoors or any other birds apart from his parents who are all indoors for the winter,his brother who was the weaker chick is now huge and doing really well
the parents keep stepping on the sick baby and rejecting him so im keeping him separate and warm,he wont let me syringe feed him he panics too much im scared of him having a heart attack 
he's not been in contact with any toxic materials or houseplants
wot can i get for him i cant let him go i watched him hatch its breaking my heart


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## ThePoultryFarm (Oct 1, 2010)

If they are seven weeks old, shouldn't they be off the parents? 
I would look in their beaks for anything that seems out of the ordinary, or any off-white colored blockage. I would also worm them immediately. The sick one needs to be taken away from the others and kept warm during his treatment, and possibly tube fed this evening.


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## ThePoultryFarm (Oct 1, 2010)

Also, to tube feed him I would restrain him in your hand, to keep him from flapping and squirming. Just don't squeeze him too hard.  He won't have a heart attack.


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi Tim nothing out of the ordinary down the throat nice and clear and pink
i rescued the pair that laid the eggs and the whole family are indoors i have an avery in my utility room and one in the garden but they are all in for the winter we were going to keep them all together as i dont plan on having any more they were feeding on their own and weaned quite nicely 
i was told in the pet shop the anti parasite spot on i got would take care of worms mites and all parasites?
he wont let me tube feed him he panics too much
do i need different medication for worms?
i feel so helpless,im out in the stigs and my local vet reopens wednesday
ive been trying to feed him baby food porridge,mushed up bread and water
is there anything better?


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

At 7 weeks he should be able to eat defrosted peas and corn. You could try those. Give them warm . Give very small feeds to start with, just one or two, to make certain his crop is emptying.

How long have you had the parents? Do you have any antibiotics to hand?

Cynthia


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi Cynthia i have baytril but its from 11/8/2010 so its 4 months old it looks ok no bits in it etc,its 10% baytril,i had it for my conure she had a small respiratory iinfection it sorted her out i also have avipro powder
the crop is empty he struggles so much and wont let me syringe feed him i tried corn and petite pois earlier he keps spitting it out,hes hungry because he nibbles my finger and tries to peck the seed bowl i put in his bed for him small budgie seed,im so scared i didnt sleep a wink last night kept him in a shoe box next to my bed well padded with tissue to keep him upright
Cynthia do they ever recover from things like this?? xx


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

oh sorry ive had the parents for well over 6 months both extremely healthy only laid when they were in the warm utility avery xx


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## ThePoultryFarm (Oct 1, 2010)

The Ivermectin applied externally with not help an internal infestation.  
Most farm stores carry "Wazine" It is a white bottle with blue lettering, around 7$. Use 2 teaspoons to a gallon. Two days in a row, then repeat after 10 days. 

If he is still in the nest, you will need to force him to take the syringe no matter what he does. It is best to maintain them healthy, instead of waiting till he is to weak to put up a fight and feeding him.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

The Baytril should be OK as long as it has not been exposed to light. The solution that is normally used in the UK 2.5%, the 10% solution is 4 times stronger...

I think it would be better to get someone from the US that is accustomed to using that solution to advise you, I will PM Pidgey and Dobato.

I don't know what is wrong with the baby, I hope that your vet will know but Baytril is usually the starting point that my avian vet uses when she can't tell what is wrong from examining the bird.

How long have you had the parents?


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Ive had the parents for about 6 months now xx
i just managed to get 10 pieces of defrosted corn down him and he had 2 or 3 big gulps of the gloucose and honey solution his beak is not gaping as bad as it was but his breathing is still quite fast
i'll hopefully see a vet tomorrow 
thank u for all your help xx


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, I am sorry to her your little one is not well.

Could you post up a post up a photo of her, a photo of any recent droppings she has done (no matter how sparse or what they look like), can you weigh her and report her weight, does her crop feel like it has any contents in it, can you open her mouth and have a sniff, do you smell any odd odors. Please do not worm her as yet or feed her anything right now until we try and get a better understanding of what is going on.

They can recover from things like this here is a recent thread of two other birds that were having some troubles:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/crop-still-full-amp-he-keeps-adjusting-it-49083.html

Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Ask him to consider/treat for *aspergillosis*. That could cause breathing problems and paralysis. One of my rescue woodies died of it ar the beginning of this month, so it is on my mind. My vet says aspergillus is in the atmosphere and we all breath it, so it is a possibility.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do we know the weight of the bird or have a fair guess?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

i'll tell the vet about that thank u xx 
the other baby over the last couple of hours ive noticed has fallen out of his bowl and was disorientated for a couple of seconds then gets up but holds his head back with his beak wide open for a few seconds then shuts it and goes back to normal?? i hope he's ok,his poop is normal and he's eating and drinking?? if it is aspergillosis i dont think he will pull through :-(( x


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

hey pidgey the little fella weighs 180 grams x


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

how do i post images guys it keeps asking for an url my images are on my laptop??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, are you sure of this weight?... as 180 grams for 7 week old pigeon is extremely light, photos..droppings and birds weight for the sibling as well would be good.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Karyn...just checked no smell coming from inside the mouth inside mouth looks perfect


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's what I'm thinkin'... maybe a malnutrition deal. Could you include a picture of what these guys are eating?

By the way, you have to either upload pictures to the site somehow (if that still works, I haven't tried it in ages) or you have to upload them to a webhosting site like www.webshots.com (or one of several others like photobucket) after starting an account (those can be free).

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

How to upload a photos:

Could be as Pidgey mentions, malnutrition, bringing on a host of problems, need photos as soon as you can, where are you located, by the way? No odor is good, keep them both at around 85-90 degrees ambient temperature for the time being if you can.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=525049&postcount=15

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

yes just weighed again 180 grams the other chick is just over 200 grams
wot weight should they be? i know the ill chick is light but the other chick is fat and feels very solid? they were hatched on the 14th of nov so they are 6 weeks xx
just cant wait to get to the vets im so worried about them :-((
how do i post photos it keeps giving me an url?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

At 6-7 weeks around 350 grams, give or take some, so about double for the one bird and a good deal more for the other. Can you clarify your location, as it will help knowing what supplies may be available for you.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

nope it wont let me upload my photos if someone could give me their email i could post it there x


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

im in droitwich worcestershire wr9


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

[email protected]

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

ive been feeding snowdrop and beauty( the parents) a mix of mixed corn pigeon corn peeled sunflower seeds premium pigeon food all mixed together do i need to give them some different foods?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Hmm... odd. The reason that I asked was because I once saw a lady feeding some young doves pure millet seeds. They were really, really, REALLY small.

Anyhow... doesn't look like the diet is the problem. I HAVE seen young ones that didn't figure out how to drink water until I literally worked their beaks into water several times so that they'd get the idea.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, so basically in the middle of Great Britain. You wouldn't happen to have any Kaytee hand-feeding formula around would you? Do you have any syringes around or eyedroppers? Post/send photos of both birds and their respective droppings. The couple of big gulps of the honey water will get some energy into the little one, but no more solid food until instructed.

What you are feeding the parents sounds OK for now, but could you give us a bit more background on the babies, did you think the parents were still feeding them, are these first time parents, were they pecking and trying to eat on their own, so you though they were OK for food?

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Boy... that little guy don't look right at all considering the age. However, the lightness might be due in part to the breed. Uploading the pictures now, will have posted in a couple of minutes.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

hi hun yes the parents do feed them but both babies were eating by them selves too 
i dont know if the they are first time parents as i rescued them from having their necks pulled these are the first eggs they have laid since ive had them
i feel so helpless i just tried to help them,do you think they are just malnourished? i must admit they have never been the most energetic of chicks the bigger of the 2 only started walking last week even now he sits down after a while
If it is aspergillosis do birds ever pull through?
just need to charge my camera for ten mins then if its ok i will post pics of both babies to pidgey
the bigger chick has opened his beak really wide for about 4 seconds and done this about 10 times tonight holding his head back :-((


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

his dad is a very small tumbler/tippler pigeon but mom is quite big a racer x


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That tiny little beak basically says that the smaller pigeon genes are in play here, by the way.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

my poor little baby ...his chest is all sticky from his honey drink
next lot of pictures on the way of sibling too


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks a little brighter than I though she was going to. Kyomi, as far as I see it your two birds were/are severely undernourished, which is causing what you are seeing, the lethargy, weakness and ataxia, I don't think Aspergillus is at play here, although when they are weak like this infection issues can come into play, but most times they are bacterial in nature or sometimes yeast issues localized in the crop area, so we have to be aware of this and continue to monitor for any signs of infection.

The key now is to slowly start to get some food into them, not too much too fast as this can actually make them worse. In an ideal situation we would start for a day or two on something like Emeraid, which is like an easily digested baby formula for birds and slowly move them to a runny Kaytee mix for a few days and then thickened up for a few more and then start them weaning to seeds, as they just are not going to be able to get enough calories into them on their own right now, so we have to help in a controlled way. The droppings showing a lack of food, as they are to me, mostly bile.

Are you familiar with hand-feeding and do you have or can you buy some Kaytee and can you pick up some ReadyBrek, in the meantime?

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, just one drop for the Baytril dosage. That's about the easiest way to dose these guys. I don't usually do it that way but you need small syringes (0.3 mL) to do it my normal way. Okay... so going with a 180 gram bird and a 20 mg/kg/once-per-day dosing, we're looking at: 3.6 milligrams or 36 microliters per day of 10% solution. That's about the standard size of drop for the Baytril that I use (the drops vary between 25 and 40 microliters).

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

yes i can grab some readybrek in the morning i only have normal breakfast oats at the mo where can i get kaytee from??
can i give babyfood?
i have just defrosted some corn and peas they are nice and luke warm can i feed them some before i go to bed? i will have them next to me in their shoe box x
ive posted some pics of the sibling and poops to pidgey 
thank u so much guys im in a terrible state here xx


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, let me ask Phil and Pidgey about their thoughts on getting some food into these guys tonight, what kind and how much. Feefo (Cynthia) will be able to provide help on where Kaytee, or a similar hand-feeding formula, can be purchased there.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thank u xx


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks like a lack of proper nutrients are probably affecting his bone formation, Kaytee should help with and we can supplement with some added vitamins and calcium as well. At least there are some solids in his dropping. Pidgey, thoughts on food?

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

this is holly the second baby in the last few hours he's started leaning his head right back with beak wide open and tongue out whilst nested then goes back to normal?
as for sweetpea the smaller chick her breathing is still a little fast but her beak is not gaping open anymore looks a bit dare i say better??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kyomi said:


> this is holly the second baby in the last few hours he's started leaning his head right back with beak wide open and tongue out whilst nested then goes back to normal?
> as for sweetpea the smaller chick her breathing is still a little fast but her beak is not gaping open anymore looks a bit dare i say better??


Can you guide this ones beak into a cup of the honey water, at a tepid temperature and try to get Holly to drink?

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

In the picture of the sick one, he appears to be pushing his feet out in front of him to hold himself up... is that the case?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

They will sometimes do a little thing that reminds you of a yawn, but not quite. They kinda' point their beak somewhat upwards, open it and then close it while bringing their chin back down... does that sound right?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

yes they are held quite firmly infont of her what does that mean?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, maybe nothing. In the first post, you said something about finding the one with its legs possibly in some state of paralysis--that's why I was asking.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, let's get some numbers... wantcha' to count how many breaths he takes in one minute. You may have to watch the feathers of the back or wings or the front--anything that moves, however slightly, when he takes a breath.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

pidgy yes that sounds about right only thing is a couple of times holly has fell out of bed and cant get back up after doing it?? but seems ok?
ive just tried them both with a drink and they both refused although had a drink about 45 mins ago...should i give them a few peas and corn
holly just done the open beaqk thing again he gets a bit panicky when he does it and backs up?? xx


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, I would take this as part of the lack of muscle mass, tone and development making them do things awkwardly and hold their body in unnatural looking stances, as they are managing the best they can.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

ok holly one min number of breaths..33 per min
sweetpea.....64 per min


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

About 30 is the norm for a resting bird, although that goes up when they're doing anything that requires a higher energy output (walking; flying). If sweetpea has double that while technically not doing anything, then we have to worry about the gas exchange mechanism in the lungs OR... some kind of hemolytic anemia. Anemia will definitely cause them to respire faster trying to get enough oxygen. Have you dosed the Baytril yet?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

not yet...a little scared as i have had it since august there is a little white deposit in the bottom of the tube...will it be ok??


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

its been kept in the kitchen cupboard xx


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

To give you a little more information about that, some bacterial infections can go systemic (floating around in the blood and hitting many places at the same time possibly INCLUDING in the blood) and cause the destruction of red blood cells (RBCs). The trouble with killing RBCs is that they're the ones that carry the oxygen, so significant losses can cause an inability to get enough. Hemolysis is a name for the destruction of RBCs that can happen in various ways. Anemia is a shortage of RBCs; "Hemolytic Anemia" means that there's an anemia that came by way of hemolysis. There are a few bacteria that can do that and we're not going to know if that's what's going on as it's just a possible guess, but since A treatment is in our hands at the moment, we'll go with that. Thus... give him the Baytril if you haven't already.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, just shake it up and use it. The white stuff is probably just oxygen reacting to the excipients. I've seen that before and the stuff's usually good for a few years. Actually, that antibiotic itself won't go bad for many years.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

i have the syringe ready its a very small goes up to 100 but cant make out the measurments? its for insulin i have 3 small lines of baytril which is a drop when i squirt it does that sound right guys??


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you see a "1 mL" on the syringe anywhere?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are different sizes of syringes used for insulin, by the way. You can probably measure it and tell me how long the cylinder part is and I can tell you what it is.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

yes its as thin as a pencil and prob half the length it has 1ml next to the 100 but i can barely see it x


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

shall i give them both a shot?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the 0.3 mL syringes are REALLY small... 

But, anyhow, you just need to get one full drop down him. Here's a decent picture of a 1 mL syringe:










You'd actually be giving less than 1/10th of the syringe, approximately 1/3 of the way between nothing and that first 0.1 mark on the syringe in that picture. Does that make sense to you?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thats the one ok here goes x


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, you can make a preemptive strike by giving Holly the same stuff. How much of it do you have? If the SUSPECTED bacterial infection responds to the medication, it will still take a few days before his breathing comes back to the normal rate because it takes time for the body to produce replacement RBCs. That's IF... we've got the diagnosis and the treatment right, so we're going to continue worrying and watching. And counting respiration rates. For days.

Things like this are never easy.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

done....it was literally one drop like a bead of sweat
shall i give him a few peas??
i must retire soon as its 3 15 am :-((
x


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

i only have a tiny splash left maybe enough for tomorrow,hopefully i can see a vet tomorrow and get some more i have work at 8(less than 5 hours) the babies will be coming with me i have a nice warm van and i can keep an eye
let me know about a quick feed 
thank u all y've really helped i'll keep u posted xx


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You can if you want, but not very many. Frankly, if we're right about the possibility of a hemolytic anemia, too much food will do more harm than good because the body often has to shut some processes down in order to do other things. Fighting a really bad infection is one of them. Does he feel particularly skinny?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

yes but holly feels ok x


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, if you don't have very much, I wouldn't start giving it to the other one yet until you get some more. Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) will also work because they're basically the same thing (if that matters when you see a vet). In fact, about 40% of the Enrofloxacin (actual drug name for Baytril) will be converted to Ciprofloxacin in the liver.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'd give him maybe 10 peas or so for now.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thank u xx im on my 4th piece of corn i'll give him 5 peas 5 corn xx


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thank u everyone for all yr help its nice to know theres ppl out there who love pigeons as much as me xxxxx
talk soon


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, 15 peas would equal 10 actual Calories (food Calories with a capital "C" are actually 1000 physics calories, or the "kcal") and 8 kernels of field corn (the big stuff) also make 10 Calories. One level teaspoon of flour, cornmeal or most dry babybird formulas will also be 10 Calories. Of course, that only means something if you're trying to determine how many Calories to give a bird and that can be calculated by formula, as long as you input a few factors. There's a previous post about that, I'll have to go looking...

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

So, here's one of those posts:



Pidgey said:


> Anyway, I wanted to post some information for Moxie regarding how much to feed the bird so that it can maintain its energy level. The formula goes something like this:
> 
> (Taxonomic Constant) * (weight in kg)^0.75 * 1.5 * (Physiologic Factor) = Kcal/24 Hours
> 
> ...


...so we could pick some numbers for this bird but I'd probably just go with the middle of straight sepsis, so the average of 1.2 to 2.0 which would be 1.6. Therefore:

78.3 * 0.18^0.75 * 1.5 * 1.6 = 51.9 Calories. 

In determining how many peas and corn kernels to give in a day, we'd have to make an assumption of what kinds of corn kernels we're dealing with. If it's field corn, then it'd be rather less than if they were standard popcorn kernels, which are smaller.

In the case of field corn, we'd want to give 39 peas and 21 kernels of field corn to get the ~52 Calories. As a guess, I'd say an equal number of popcorn kernels as peas since they're smaller so call it 39 popcorn kernels. All in a day, by the way. That's 60 to 80 separate items to feed the hard way if it came to that.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thanks pidgey xx
the babies today have had a feed at 7am this morning 25 ml from a very large feeding syringe each and 10 corn kernals each freshly frozen thawed under a warm tap,and every couple of hours a small syringe full of honey glucose and calcium
then repeated at 1pm
then again at 7pm
holly the bigger chick is bright as a button a huge improvement
sweetpea is a lot more alert breathing slightly better and started to preen herself today too!!
shes had her baytril again today hopefully she will improve day by day
holly though i have noticed today has a swollen 
toe on one foot,and the other foot is swollen in the middle it doesnt seem to be bothering him he is walking preening and very alert 
should i start giving him baytril too? 
my husband was massaging hollies feet earlier gently,is that ok??


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

oh sorry the feed i am using is ready brek,couldnt find kaytee but have ordered some online xx


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sure. (yes, it's okay to massage feet--I do it all the time for my better half)

Keep posting the respiration rate every few hours (don't wake up in the middle of the night to check it although I've done that a lot).

Take and send me a picture of those swollen feet.

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

ok hun wots yr email addy it wont let me post any pics i was sending pics direct to karyn last night xx
have also taken pic of sweetpea's poop,smells like porridge!!
sweetpea still cant use her legs although kicks them out when she has to poop should i do anything to excercise her legs??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, glad they are doing better today. We don't want to over do the honey water and calcium, since you started the feeding the ReadyBrek by syringe, you can stop the honey water and just use plain water now, how much calcium are you currently giving? You have to give calcium supplements a good time away from when you give the Baytril, as calcium can interfere with the way this med is absorbed. Also, make sure you don't make the ReadyBrek too thick and that they continue to get supplemented with water as well, allow their crops to become almost flat before feeding each time. Please send Pidgey new photos of their dropping when the ReadyBrek starts coming out their back end (it was Pidgey who you sent the photos last night to ).


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

oh sorry hun was so tired lol xx ok so send to pigdey!! 
sweetpea just pooped so i'll tale a pic now although the poop earlier looked more normal they really do vary ??
just held sweetpea up so she could excercise her legs and as i held her up she was preening herself!! her legs were walking as i took the weight off them and she is holding her tail up a little x


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, sounds good, just take it slow and easy with them, it will take a a bit of time to get them back on course.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

thanks karyn i have everything crossed!! i hope she will walk again :-(( when holly gets up for a walk around poor little sweetpea tries to get up too but cant xx


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Respiration rate on Sweetpea?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Hey xx respiration on sweetpea...65 but was preening at the time,she keeps trying to get the porridge off her chest
shes not gaping as much
she does gape a bit when she's about to poop tho


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, so, we're stable, if high. What do we know at this point about how many days worth of Enrofloxacin (Baytril) that you have?

Pidgey


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

i have about 30ml id say so got quite a bit got it from my vet 
he didnt really have a clue whats wrong with sweetpea but gave me baytril anyway??!!? x


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Swelling could be from a few different causes, from infection to twisting the foot from weakness, so the Baytril and time should be be enough to hopefully resolve the issue. The dropping, although far from ideal, shows good hydration and solids content, so just keep doing what you are doing, in terms of meds, fluids and food, don't forget to let the crop go down before feeding each time. You forgot to mention how much calcium you were/are giving and how often.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

hi guys calcium plus iron tablets from the health shop
each tablet contains...
vit D-7.5mg
vit C-30mg
thiamin(vit B1)-1.4mg
riboflavin(vit B2)-1.6mg
vit B6-2.0mg
vit B12-1.0mg
calcium-800mg
iron-14.0mg
im crushing one tablet in to a powder and adding it to their porridge
so one tablet between the 2 chicks per day
Good news guys......
holly now weighs 260 grams...60 grams gained
sweetpea 200 grams...20 grams gained
breathing roughly the same but hardly any gaping so slight improvement
also when she falls over onto her side on her towel she corrects herself and shuffles along on her butt with her legs out in front of her and using her tail feathers when i lift her,whereas yesterday she just would lay there.
also preening a lot more and pecking at the towel and very alert ive put some budgie seeds down for them they peck at them so starting to take an intrest
holly's feet are the same as yesterday so will start her on baytril tomorrow
poops are great too sweetpeas have a litte white strip in and a little firmer
holly's are normal
same food as yesterday but minus the honey water just plain water x


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, please stop giving anymore calcium in this form immediately, these would not be correct proportions for a pigeon. You can pick up some calcium tablets, such as Caltrate, at the pharmacy or health food store, that are just calcium with some added vitamin D, nothing else. We want to give about 50mg, every second day for each bird for about a week. If you get some today, do not give any for a few days, since they received a good deal of from the what you just gave. When dosing birds don't forget they usually weigh less than a pound (and much less for these two little ones), so when you give a half of a pill like this to one, it would be like us taking 50-75 of them, way too much. Glad they are gaining weight, as mentioned before not too much too soon, take it slow and easy on them.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

ok thank u karyn will get some tomorrow xx


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi Guys babies doing great just a quick question.. when i give sweetpea corn it stays in her crop for hours is that normal?i gave her 15ml of baby porridge and 10 corn kernals at about 3pm today its now 9.30 and i can still feel the pieces of corn in her crop shall i stick to just ready brek that seems to be going through ok poops are fine too
shes standing for short amounts of time approx 3 secs helping herself up using her wings respiration is roughly the same
holly is coming on leaps and bounds he's crop is empty after a couple of hours he had 4 feeds today swelling has slightly improved


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I would just stick to the ReadyBrek, until the Kaytee come in, and as mentioned, make sure it's not too thick and continue to give water. Also, you can spread some seed down for them to peck at, take out any larger peas/corn/seeds for now (if the mix includes these), you can use your forefinger to peck at the seeds with them to give them an idea of what they should be doing and to encourage them to self-feed.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Ok thank u Karyn what would i do without u!!!!
Grrrrrr im so angry though,there's a guy who races pigeonson my facebook a friend of a friend i pm'd him on facebook on sunday when i found sweetpea off her legs he's only just got back to me and basically said she has no chance shes going to die and never be able to use her legs again,put her out of her misery!!!!!
im looking at my sweetpea now and she's getting up ok not for long but she's getting stronger everyday!! pigeon racers are so cruel my husband just told me when he was a kid there was a little old guy down the road from him who raced pigeons he used to go visit him to look at the pigeons.
The one day he went to visit and one of the pigeons landed on the loft,the old man coaxed the bird down with some seed then caught it and pulled its neck!!!
the bird was a couple of days late,my husband was only 9 at the time he was so upset ran home crying.....he never went back there again! xx


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kyomi, I see no reason with a good care, and a bit of luck, that Sweatpea should not in time make a full recovery. She just did not have much muscle mass, hence strength, to get around with and she was in a quite malnourished state, so this is why she was the way she was, plus there may be as infection issue as well, probably brought about by being is this poor condition. This sort of state does not correct overnight and you can't do too much too soon or you will just set her back, or worse. Keep doing what you are doing and in a few more weeks I am hoping you should see a deal of improvement in her. 

I think fanciers are like most people in life, you have some good ones who would do anything for their birds and you have some that make you shake your head from their actions and some of the things they say and do, many times they are just ill informed on matters.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Happy new year everyone!!
i just want to say thank u for all your help,the babies are doing amazingly!
holly's weight.......305 grams
sweetpea........280 grams!!!!
holly is learning to fly he is flapping all the time!
respiration rates..
holly...33 per min
sweetpea...42 per min
sweetpea is walking all the time now a bit wobbly but walking and preening!!
feeds
holly is having 4 x's 30ml of readybrek and drinking on his own
sweetpea is having 4 x's 20ml of readybrek and im giving him about 2 or 3 drinks if i hold it by her beak she drinks
ive spread some seeds and they are taking an intrest im using my finger to teach them
poops are great sweetpea's are still quite wet but not as green
thank u everyone again for all yr help i'll keep u posted x
kym


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kym, it sounds like thinks are progressing along nicely with these guys, for less than a week since you first posted. Just so you know, I kind of use 300 grams as an arbitrary weight mark, to where I start to feel less anxious about a bird once they are above this amount, as if there are any unforeseen set backs they have some reserves to draw on to get them through a rough spot. You are doing a swell job at bringing them along, please keep us updated.

Karyn


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you xx
just watching tv i have a big towel spread out on the floor and my little guys are playing and flapping about and squeeking! its a joy to see!
I wouldnt have been able to do it without you guys
thank you
kym xx


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Good update! Thank you!

What you could do now is get a test kit from Retford Poultry, you don't have to pay for anything until you use it so it is a useful toolk to have on hand, you send poop samples off and they will do a culture and sensitivity test, only £10 (+£2) for the kit, so a lot cheaper and quyicker than taking a pigeon in to the vet for tests.


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## kyomi (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks Feefo xx
Will order one of those,very useful.
will try and post some pics having problems posting on here so normally email them to pidgey,i'll also put pics of my other's ive saved
Ive got a eurasian collared dove who can only fly a little we think he had a broken wing and didnt heal properly,i found him 7 months ago wondering round by the shops
a ringneck dove who's parents were killed
a snow white racer who i saved from a trap
a tumbler who is blind in one eye
my 2 babies(parents are white racer and tumbler)
a grey racer i fed from a baby saved from being killed by pest controller
and last but not least a grey pigeon who was hit by a car blind and slightly brain damaged ive had him for nearly 2 years now,he feeds preens and coo's and is happy to sit on my shoulder while i watch tv he nestles up to me 
kym xx


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