# Found pigeon with leg gnawed off in Albuquerque



## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I just found a severly injured pigeon. When I saw the bird was hurt, I picked it up with a towel I had in my car.I initially noticed that some feathers had been plucked from its back and half of one of its wings was gone. When I got home, I prepared a box lined with a towel for the bird as I went to set the bird in the box, I looked underneath him/her and saw that one of its legs was gone. The stump was not bleeding but was caked with dried blood. 

I put a small dish of water and bird seed in the box and the bird immediately took a few pecks at the food. I then read online that food is not a good idea but water is VERY important. I removed the food and tried lifting the water to his/her beak but the bird didn't drink. 

I've read a few posts that mention bathing the bird in a saline solution. Aren't pigeons very dirty? Is this safe to do in my bathroom sink?? I have indoor cats and don't want to put them at any kind of risk for disease. 

I am thinking I should go and pick a syringe to administer fluids, saline solution and some Neosporin cream. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. And please hurry........my heart is breaking to know that this bird is probably in A LOT of pain. Although, surprisingly, the bird is extremely alert?!?!?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Please follow this protocol.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-11265.html

It would be good if you would post a picture or the stump and a picture of the bird so we can help you determine an age.
Pigeons are not dirty. On the contrary, they love to bathe. Mine bathe everyday as do the ferals that frequent my yard. That's not to say that the birds doesn't have lice or mites, but those are easily remedied with a spray from a pet store.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I read that. I will go get the heating pad and place it on "low" under the box now. I can't post pictures- no camera. What else should I do? Should I rinse the wound? When? What about giving the bird a bit of asprin? I read that somewhere.....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie, thanks for helping this little guy out.

I would hold off on bathing him for the time being. No telling how much blood was lost or how fresh the injury is, I would be worried that bathing him may start the bleeding up again. Wound management is not my strongest area, I am hoping someone will be on that can better assit you with him. Photos will be helpful in trying to figure out this guy's situation with his leg.

No aspirin right now, as it thins the blood and not what we want right now if he should start to bleed again. Do you have any pet or human antibiotics around, if not could you ask you friends and family if they do? Many animals carry bacteria in their mouth that can be fatal to birds and an attacked bird should be put on antibiotics as a routine precaution.

Need to try and make sure he is hydrated, into 8oz of tepid water dissolve a teaspoon of sugar, a good pinch of salt and a small pinch of baking soda, place some of this in a dish right next to him.

Can a friend or family member take a photo, as this is quite important.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie, 



If he knows how to peck and eat, he will also know how to drink.

Go ahead and allow him access to Water, and or to electrolytes.


Domestic or feral Cats, either way, are a hundred times the communicable disease Vector than feral Pigeons are. For all practical purposes, there is no basis nor issue of 'dirty' or 'germs' with Pigeons other than as a disingenuous marketing campaign ploy used by extermination companies who were trying to widen their markets.


There is simply no basis or truth to it other than lies to sell expensive services to gullible or credulous people.

Feral Pigeons are on the whole much Healthier than the people populations, and as well, such occasional illnesses as they may have, or get, are virtually never transferable to people.


On the other hand, thousands of people every year suffer horrible illness, miscarriage, deformed Babys and so on, from having House Cats who reliably will and DO transfer dangerous disease germs and parasites to people, via indoor litter boxes, people touching the Cats or petting them, and other means.

Etc.


Far as the Bird in question, set him up on a white Towel, and, let us know what the poops and urates are looking like.

If he wishes to eat, provide small whole Seeds, and, Water or Electrolyte Water.

If you like, gently examine the wounds, and, consider to clean them gently with tepid Saline. Saline may be easily made by Boiling a Quart or two of Water in a large Sauce Pan, dissolve a couple Teaspoons of common Salt in it, put a lid on it, and let it cool.


Once cool to room temperature, it is ready to be used.


Blot...don't 'rub' for cleaning injuries of course.


If all seems clean, and no deep lacerations or punctures, then good...examine his Body to see if any wounds or punctures or tears can be found.


Let us know what you find?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Got my hands on a camera but have not idea how to post them here. Could I email them to someone to post??

Noticed a few things when I went to take the photos-
He/she felt warm. I dont know what temperature a bird should be but the bird wasn't cold. Even the remaining foot.

The stump looks like it's been a stump for a bit. I'd guess at least 12 hours. It doesn't look like a fresh wound. 

The bird fussed when I tried to turn it over.

The bird took a drink each time I held the water up to it (4 times). Should I give it food?

Can you tell I have never cared for a bird before???


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Are there any Poops yet?


Let them drink, yes...they would have had no way to find Water once having been injured, and, are probably thirsty.


Let us know what you see for poops?


What sort of 'food' to you have to offer them?


Before you provide food, we may need to go over a few things.


Lastly, do you have a Vet you like who you could get some meds from, if needed? This might require a visit to them with the Bird, of course...


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

None yet. How often do birds go to the bathroom? Is it a bad sign that the bird hasn't gone yet?

I just have basic wild bird feed that I put in my feeders outside. It consists of:
Milo
White Proso Millets
Wheat
Sunflower
Calcium Carbonate Pellets
Vitamin A
Vitamin D-3
Potassium Iodide
Vegetable oil.

My vet is closed until Tuesday.

Would you feel comfortable with me emailing you the pictures? I can't figure out how to get them up.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I figured out how to get the pics up!! Unforunately, they aren't that great.

So, I've read that I am supposed to leave the bird alone but how often should I be checking on it to see if it had gone to the bathroom? 





































http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h141/kennabirdie/Injured Pigeon/?action=view&current=100_2419.jpg

This bird is so sweet! I really want him/her to be okay!! Oh and one more thing- The remaining foot is pretty red. Could that mean infection? And the skin where the feathers are gone is a little red too...... Poor bird!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

The Pigeon poo'd!!!!!!!!!!!! I never thought I'd be so excited for such a thing!

It looked like, well, bird poop.

It was white and dark brown, not solid but not extremely watery. What does this mean?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

One becoming re-hydrated...their digestive system ( assuming is is alright otherwise ) will begin 'moving' things along which have been possibly stalled because of deydration.


Hence, usually, if any doubt, one re-hydrates the Bird, or, permits them to do it themselves by allowing them to drink electrolyte/water, or plain water if no electrolyte water is able to be arranged...untill one starts to see poops and urates being made...and or for 24 hours, regardless.


Make sure they have all the electrolyte Water they like, with continual access to it.

And, I suppose, you could allow them to have some Seeds now also.


Let them have about one Shot Glass full of the Wild Bird Seed mix you have there...serve it to them on some sort of small low Bowl or Jar Lid or something...and, let them eat.


This was probably done by a Dog...but, could have been a Cat also, but, my bet would be Dog.


This leads us to two additional considerations -


1) Pigeons who have been predated on by a Dog or Cat ( even when the Pigeon somehow gets away, as this one did, ) were usually ill or injured already, or, they would not have been caught and mauled. Hence, this Bird may have an illness or injury condition which pre-dated the predation event.

2) Dog or Cat Teeth ( but not as bad as people teeth usually ) may carry a variety of germs, which, when entering the circulatory system of a Bird ( or anyone else they bite ) can cause a systemic infection. For which, a good broad spectrum antibiotic, such as Baytril/Cipro/Enroflaxyn ( all roughly different names for the same medicine ) should be begun as soon as possible.


Birds who acquire a systemic infection from being caught by a Cat ( even if not bitten, the Claws can do it ) or bit by a Dog ( not a claw danger there, ) or caught by a Hawk ( claws and Beak with this one ) can die by day 4 roughly if no antibiotics are being given.

I would say, find a way to obtain an appropriate Antibiotic and begin the course as soon as possible.

'Tuesday' will be too late, and or, will be a gamble which will either win or lose with not much for an in-beteen.
..since if he were to be still alive by Tuesday, he probably did not need the antibiotic for a systemic infection anyway.

Rather than gamble, the usual choice is to get the Bird onto an antibiotic regimen a.s.a.p.

Anyway...wounds wise...as for the amuptations of the Leg, and, outer Wing part, a Topical Antibiotic Ointment would be good, and soothing, and, if you can not access better ones, plain old 'Neosporin', applied softly and slathered softly to the wounded parts, would be a good thing.


No need to bother fussinjg with any scabs which are present...they can be left as is, and the 'Neosporin' merely slathered softly over them.


You can get this at any grocery store or drug store and even some 7-11s.


Where are you located?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi kennabirdie,

You are in good hands with Phil. Thanks for getting the photos up.

Just a couple of mentions, if you could switch out the small dish you are using for the hydration fluid right now, for a different one, and use it instead for the seeds Phil mentions giving him, it might be a good idea. A dish a little smaller, but deeper, say and inch or so, would be a little better for him. Pigeons kind of suck up their water when they drink and a little more depth would help him with this. Also, with sourcing an antibiotic from friends and family (either the pet kind or human kind would be OK) you don't need much, one pill will most likely do, and we'll help you here mix it into a form that you can give him. If by some chance you end up having a few choices in antibiotics, let us know which ones you have sourced and we'll tell you which would be the best, we would need to know the strength (how many milligrams the pill is).

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Oh...'Albuquerque'...( Duh...)


The injury may be more than a day old...so...

a.s.a.p. for Antibiotics would be good.


Yes, as Karyn mentions, Water dish or cup should be not less than an inch deep...Seed dish can be shallow.


Is he eating then?


Any more poops since last report?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

He is eating and drinking often. And has had 3 poops since my last post. They were soft, not as much white, and the dark part was a little more green than the first time. I am not sure what "urates" is? I will go to the pharmacy in a little while to get saline and neosporin. How do I rinse the wound? Can I just fill a shallow dish and set bird in it? 

When it gets a little later here, I'll see if I can track down some antibiotics.

I love animals and just think this bird is so sweet! It is okay to pet it around the neck? I want to soothe the bird, not stresss it out.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Make that 4. This one was a little more solid. The fact that he/she is going to the batroom is good, right?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

This guy is lucky that you found him. I'm glad he is eating and drinking, but being a feral bird, petting him will only stress him out more. He really needs rest and antibiotics right now. The antibiotics being really important.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kennabirdie said:


> Make that 4. This one was a little more solid. The fact that he/she is going to the batroom is good, right?


It is good that he is pooping, it means he is eating. Thank you for getting himthe help he needs, as antibiotics are crucial at this point.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Should I try and take the bird to some sort of wildlife rescue? I can't image that once rehabbed, he/she could be released. What will they do with it? 

The only antibiotic I've tracked down so far is nitrofurantoin mono 100mg caps that expired on 1/8/10. It's not even 9am here so I haven't started calling everyone I know yet....

It pooped again. It was pretty solid.

I hate to say it but I am getting attached to this little bird. Am I silly for thinking that I can nurse this bird back to health and keep it as a pet? I was planning on getting chickens in a few weeks but this bird is pretty sweet....
What would be best for the bird??


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

Yes, it is silly thinking you can nurse the bird and have it as a pet---that is why you are here talking to all of us silly people who have also nursed severly injured birds back to health and now have Pigeon pets!!! You have a good heart, and I really hope this little bird makes it. Pigeons do make awesome pets, especially the handicapped ones! I will be hoping for the best for you and your patient!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, if you take this bird to many wildlife places, this bird, that has no real chance at release with a missing leg, will almost sure be PTS (put to sleep), until other wise determined, you are this bird's best chance at survival.

The drug you found, Nitrofurantoin, is not recommended for use in pigeons in the reference book I consulted, it does not specifically say why, but it said do not use in finches and pigeons. Just to help I will name a few common antibiotics that will work and be safe for you little guy, Amoxicillin, Augmentin/aka/Clavamox/aka/Amoxicillin/Clavulanate Acid, Baytril/aka/Enrofloxacin, Trimethoprim-Sulfa/aka/Septra or Bactrim, Ciprofloxacin/aka/Cipro, Azithromycin/aka/Zithromax, Doxycycline/aka/Vibramycin, Cephalexin/aka/Keflex, Clindamycin/aka/Cleocin there are others, but both in humans and for animals these are fairly commonly found.

Sometimes we have to push a little in emergencies, see if you can get friends and family to call their friends and family, we just need one pill for now.

Glad to hear things are moving through him OK. If we can get him by this event, there is a good chance he could live out a good life and have a forever home with you.

Gotta' run,

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Poor Pigeon! I haven't been able to find any antibiotics yet. He/she seemed pretty stable, alert and in good spirits so I thought it'd be a good time to rinse the wound w/ saline and apply the neosporin. Pigeon REALLY didnt like that!! The wounds look sooo painful! Poor pigeon's leg is bitten off at the body and there are open wounds where half of one wing was chewed off!! I did the best I could and pigeon is not as happy as it was before. I put the heating pad on low underneath the box and will just give it time to settle down. In the meantime, I'm on the hunt for some antibiotics..... Thank you all for your advise,help and support!! Poor Pigeon and I appreciate it!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I was just told that I could go pick up some antibiotics from Petsmart. Will that help?? 

Poor Pigeon poo'd again. It was solid-ish and white and green. Again, looked like normal bird poo to me. 

I breifly went to a Memorial Day BBQ but left early b/c I was so concerned about how my feathered friend was doing..... I came home and fed and watered the bird, who seems to be in better spirits after the bath ordeal. Now I'm off to buy the antibiotics. Hope they work!!

If there is anything else I should be doing, please let me know!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, these guys really are brave little troopers that seem to manage many times to able to get through some pretty horrible wounds with some help.

Outside of guarding against the harmful bacteria that the attack might have potentially infected this little guy with, treating with antibiotics right now would also be good idea to deal with other potential infections, such as soft tissue and bone infections the attack could bring about, plus as Phil mentioned, he could already have been ill and a number of the antibiotics I mentioned before will treat a pretty broad range of disease causing bacteria.

As a backup to friends and relatives, many tropical fish stores carry antibiotics. Call and ask if the have Amoxicillin/aka/Fish Mox, TMP Sulfa, Doxycycline, TRIPLE SULFA API Pro Series, Cephalexin/aka/Keflex/aka/ Fish Flex, or you could even ask if they have Ciprofloxacin/aka/ Aquafish Ciprofloxacin. Also, it may be a good idea to pick up one other med from a tropical fish store, if you can, it's for a drug called Metronidazole/aka/Fish Zole, it will be quite useful in treating him for canker, a disease that may have made him ill in the first place. I Googled tropical fish in your area, this is what I came up:

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=...=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=dcc3833415801cf3

What kind of antibiotics from Petsmart, the kind is important. Almost forgot, you will need a few couple of small syringes get a couple of 1cc and a 3cc one, if possible, the kind without a needle, or one that can be removed.

Good hunting,

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Okay, so I got the API Triple Sulfa and a 10ml syringe (they didn't have anything smaller). Now what do I do?? 

Bird seems to be in better spirits now. It is eating and drinking a looking around a lot.

No new poops.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Umm....I just pet his (or her) little neck and he (or she) started pecking at the food tray and eating a lot. I thought that animals only ate when they were somewhat comfortable? Do pigeons eat when they are nervous? I am confused. Oh and that food storage thingy on the neck/chest area seems full. Also, are sunflower seeds in the shell ok for Pigeon to eat? 

Thanks again for all the help! I don't know what I would have done without this forum!!


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

You are really brave taking on this little guy. It will be an emotional roller coaster! Not all Pigeon temperments are the same, so you may have found a mellow one. Some are very affectionate, (as in the case with Cher-Ami, from a recent thread) and others will have nothing to do with you except wing slapping and pecking! (Dinkster-who was hand raised from an egg). Anyway, he must like you!! And sunflower seeds are OK, as long as there are other seeds too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie,


Can you post some close up images of the poops?

Are they solid-enough, well formed and moist and able to picked up easily with finger-tips?

Urates are their pee...it is the 'white' part one sees in the poops, so to speak. Birds release both their urine and fecal matter on one little packet.

Your Pigeon is comfortable and understands you are helping him...even if he may be a little nervous off and on.

If the whole Sunflower Seeds are small, then fine...if larger or large, I would say remove them from his menu for now.

For his Water...probably ACV-Water would be best for the next week or so.

This would be, raw, unfiltered, Organic, Apple Cider Vinegar, added to plain Water.

The proportion would be as three Tablespoons of the Vinegar to one Gallon of Water.


Just get one of those Gallon plastic Jugs of Water at any 7-11, pour out a little, and add the Vinegar, Label it with a Felt Pen, and use that.


'Braggs' is the Brand of Choice for the raw Vinegar, and may be had at any Health Food Store, and some upscale Grocery Stores.


This will have value in several ways for his well being and for during his Medicinal courses.


Anyway, one of the reasons why one cleans wounds, sluices all with Saline, and so on, is it is also a practical way of getting up close and getting in there to actually see and evaluate the wounds, find additional injuries or wounds one had not noticed before, and, to remove blood Feathers or outer debris and general mess, while it is still easy to do and not all dried and hard and resistent.

If you would please, go a one-by-one list and description as best you can, of the wounds or injuries you have found, including whether you see any bone ends sticking out even a little bit from the areas where he lost the Leg and the Wing end.



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, each small packet in the box contains 1000mg of pure med. I want you open one of these packs and dump it on something like a small mirror or even a magazine cover. Divide the little pile of med evenly in half, use a credit card or a business card, then put other half back in the pack.

Now with this half of the pack we are going to make up a suspension med for him. In a shot glass, or an small espresso cup place the med, now add 2cc of warm water to this and stir it into solution. I am hoping you have some kind of syrup around the house Karo, corn or even pancake syrup will do. We need 8cc of one of these syrups to now add to the 2cc of the med + water. I find it's better to draw up 8cc of water and place this in another shot glass, then make a little line on the outside, dump the water out and just pour in the syrup up to this line. This is easier, as syrups are hard to draw up into a syringe. Add the 2cc of med to the 8cc of syrup, stir well and now we want to give him 0.30cc (less than 1/3 of 1 (one) mL) of this suspended med, thats why we need a small syringe, but we can get around this for now, do you have an eyedropper around the house? 

We need to get 6 drops, no more, of this suspended med into him, make sure you shake, or stir, the suspension well before drawing up the med to give him. Just gently open his mouth and place one drop at a time in and allow him to swallow. Refrigerate the med after use, until next time.

FYI, 1cc = 1mL, same thing.

Any luck with the Metronidazole?

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Bear with me I am a little overwhemed right now. The first thing I am focused on is getting the medication prepared. Please tell me, is dark Karo syrup okay?? I hope so. That is all I have.

Also, I am worried because I can't get my hands on a smaller syringe or dropper right now. I see where 1/3 of a cc would be. Can I just guess-timate and administer slightly less?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

And how am I supposed to get him to open his mouth without man-handling him??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> Bear with me I am a little overwhemed right now. The first thing I am focused on is getting the medication prepared. Please tell me, is dark Karo syrup okay?? I hope so. That is all I have.
> 
> Also, I am worried because I can't get my hands on a smaller syringe or dropper right now. I see where 1/3 of a cc would be. Can I just guess-timate and administer slightly less?


Just take a deep breath, we'll get you through this. Yes, dark, light, does not matter, we are just making sure the med is well suspended when dosing. No, best not to guess-timate with meds, we are already doing this a slight bit with drops instead of an exact measurement with a syringe. When you say you can see where 1/3 of a cc would be, how are you doing this, what exactly do you mean?

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> And how am I supposed to get him to open his mouth without man-handling him??


Get a towel, fold over on your lap and place him on top. Get another heavier towel fold over and place this on top of him so just his head is kind of poking out. Then we are going to gently hold his mouth, open his beak and place in his meds, like this link below, but instead of food, drops of meds. Normally we would just wrap him up "burrito style" in a single towel, but with his injuries I am reluctant to recommend doing this at present.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> Also, I am worried because I can't get my hands on a smaller syringe or dropper right now. I see where 1/3 of a cc would be. Can I just guess-timate and administer slightly less?


OK, do this, but you will need a second person most likely, get a pen open it up and take out the ink refill inside, you will need one that is the 1/8" or so kind, not the larger ones. Wash this up, shake/stir up the med dip the none ink end into the med and let a drop roll off into his mouth, do this for six drops. I just tried this with ones of my suspensions and it works fine. We'll get him a small 1cc syringe tomorrow. Just so you know this is a loading dose, a larger up front dose to get a higher concentration in his blood sooner. Next dose, 12 hours from the first, you will give him 0.20mL on a 1mL syringe, this is four drops.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Well, I guess I should have waited a bit longer to hear from you but I was just so concerned that time was of the essence and I needed to get the meds into Pigeon's system ASAP.....

My mom has a friend that has birds (not pigeons) so I called her to ask how to get bird to open its beak in order to give it meds. She told me the same thing about the towel but didn't give me the same info about opening the beak. She said if I stuck the syringe in the corner of pigeon's mouth, it would open. So, even though I didn't have the ability to measure .30cc, I focused on 6 drops and attempted her method.

As I am sure you know, it didn't work. I am guessing I got 3 drops, max, in but since basically, I was just dribbling it on pigeon's face and occasionally he/she would open up and let some in, I have no idea. I am sad about this. What to do now? Put some meds in the water? Suspended or the straight powder? Or should I just wait to administer the next, regular dose? I feel like I am being a bad pigeon mom 

Oh and another poop....Will try and post pics later.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, no, don't put the meds in the water. For now do this, get a piece of very fresh bread, cut a piece about 1/2" x 1/2", take the meds and drop three drops on this little piece of bread the way I told you, dip into shaken med and let a drop roll off. Let the three drops soak in a minute, then squish the piece into a little ball and pop it into your little guy, the way video clip shows I posted earlier, and you should be good.

Don't worry too much, but I have been checking back pretty constantly through the day, please if you are not sure of anything, whether you are working with me or someone else, and we are in the middle of something, please hold off for further guidance as it won't be long between responses.

I am here now, any questions please ask away.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Okay. But I don't have VERY fresh bread. Only a bit of stale-ish Ezekial Sprouted Grain Sesame Bread. Will this work? Also I didn't understand the part about the drop rolling off. Did you mean off the syringe? The goal is to get three drops absorbed into the bread and then into Pigeon's mouth, right? 

Is is okay to wait maybe just an hour or two to do this? It's just that I feel like I traumatized him with the whole meds thing and then I also just re-applied neosporin to his wounds. I just hate to distress him too much at once, just like after his bath this am, I wanted to give him quiet time after such an ordeal. Also I don't want to wipe all of the neosporin off, just to have to go through that whole routine again. But whatever is best for the bird is what I'd like to do.

You are so so so much help!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> Okay. But I don't have VERY fresh bread. Only a bit of stale-ish Ezekial Sprouted Grain Sesame Bread. Will this work? Also I didn't understand the part about the drop rolling off. Did you mean off the syringe? The goal is to get three drops absorbed into the bread and then into Pigeon's mouth, right?
> 
> Is is okay to wait maybe just an hour or two to do this? It's just that I feel like I traumatized him with the whole meds thing and then I also just re-applied neosporin to his wounds. I just hate to distress him too much at once, just like after his bath this am, I wanted to give him quiet time after such an ordeal. Also I don't want to wipe all of the neosporin off, just to have to go through that whole routine again. But whatever is best for the bird is what I'd like to do.
> 
> You are so so so much help!!


What I mean by a drop rolling off was that you would be dipping something slim, I suggested a pen ink refill, into the shaken meds. When dipping and drawing this out some will remain on the dipping "stick" you tilt this and let a drop roll down and off. When working with small measurements a 10cc syringe is all but useless, but if you shake up the med well draw a bit into the syringe you could also slowly squeeze out three drops.

It's fine to wait a bit, but I would like to get a full dose into him say in the next hour. With the bread, tear a piece and see if there is enough moisture in it to ball up. If not, get a plant mister (water bottle), and mist a piece of bread and let it sit for a while, this should rehydrate it enough to ball.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The 'Bread' Ball method sounds very appealing indeed for situations where one is not practiced in opening the Pigeon's Beak and seeing well into their mouth and Throat to be doing things in there, especially doing things with any liquids.


If the Bread piece could be even smaller, it would pass better and faster to the Stomach.

Bread, when compressed, and put into a wet envoronment ( such as the Bird's Crop, once he swallows it ) re-expands, and, may not pass well then through the passage to the Stomach, if too large.


If a 'square' 1/4 inch x 1/4 inch would work just as well for absorbing a few drops of Medicine liquid, then there would be no need for a larger piece to be used I would think.


New arrive Pigeons can have early-phase not yet conspicuously symptomatic conditions which effect or constrict the already narrow ( if elastic when healthy ) passage from Crop to Stomach, so I always am leaning toward small size Seeds, and small size anything else for prudence sake, with any new injured or sick Pigeons I am dealing with.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, just so you know, and to put it on your mind, tomorrow I think we need to get some better photos of both his wing and his leg to determine what the true extent of damage is and best course of action for them. This would be best done by two people, one holding him, facing forward, thumbs on his back, hands over each wing and under him a bit, in the breast area and then held upright, legs facing out. When you do this they will usually stretch out their legs in front this will hopefully allow for some good shots, if not tilt him a bit this way, then that, to make him stick his legs out. 

Take a lot of photos from different angles to show the extent of the tissue and bone damage. With his wing, gently extend it out so the damage is shown, again take a number of photos. When you think you have say three good shots of each, post them up. We have some very good people here, Phil being one of them who is already involved, plus vet techs, that may be able to make better determinations for him with good, clear photos.

Also, so you know, the meds you picked up for him will not only treat for the attack bacteria, but will also treat him for a number of other infections he could have possibly had prior to his being attacked, so you did good.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Ohmygosh. You are all so awesome! our feathered friends are sooo lucky to have this community in their corner!!! I am really touched! (And obviously SUCH a softie, too.)

I am really not feeling well right now but regardless, I am committed to getting Poor Pigeon's basic needs for care met. My goal right now is to get the med-soaked bread ball into it's tiny belly. What else do I need to be concerned with RIGHT NOW? I assume that the next pressing task would be to give the second dose of meds in 12 (?) hours and in the meantime keep the wounds moist. Am I correct? Would it be okay to wait on the photos until tomorrow?

As it has always been throughout this entire pigeon process, the birds well-being is my main concern and do whatever it takes (while juggling the rest of my household).

One more thing.This has been pretty intense. Is having a pigeon (not in crisis) always pretty high maintenance? I gues as I am becoming more and more attached, I'd like to have some perspective on this. Right now, it is pretty full time. I am really happy that I work in a pet friendly office and the pigeon will be welcomed at work on Tuesday!!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

MED SOAKED BREADBALL SUCESS!!!!!! YAY!!

Oh Dobato, you already said photos could come tomorrow. Oops. That works out perfectly then.....


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

BTW, no sticky-ness on the membrane in the mouth, that I noticed, but we all know, I'm no expert. It looked moist but not "plump" although I have no clue as to how plump it should be...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Still waiting for the list of one-by-one of wounds or noticible injury sites.


Amputated 'ends' of Wing and Leg should be kept 'moist' with the thin slathers of 'Neosporin' ( not with Water or anything else which would dessicate them ).


Pigeons are very 'low' maintenance.

Handicapped Pigeons, maybe not quite so low maintenance, but, generally easy and pleasant enough, especially when one loves them.


Examine the good Leg...examine the stump of the missing leg, and, tell us if you would, where the stump ends?


Here is an anatomical reference to refer to if you like -


http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/PigeonSkeleton.jpg


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, as I said tomorrow, but I wanted to put it on your mind to start to get you a little mentally prepared for this in advance. This bird has some pretty traumatic injuries, I think your are doing just splendid. When you get a chance you may find this thread informative and inspirational:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/first-posting-from-canada-please-help-16607.html

Besides the information Phil has asked you to post, please don't forget to call around to the tropical fish stores for the Metronidazole/aka/Fish Zole. If they have another brand, just make sure it is just Metronidazole with no other ingredients added. You should be able to get a small syringe at almost any drug store, he'll need his meds, 0.20mL in the morning again.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

After the feeding, I changed the bird's linens and put him/her to bed. I'll tell you of the wounds from what I remember and possibly elaborate tomorrow when I take the pictures. 

On the wing, I don't think any of the parts containg bone are actually gone. The long feathers are all gone and there are some wounds there but it looks as though it is scabbing nicely. Some of the skin looked bruised? It just looks like it was sort of gnawed on.

As for the leg, I think it is either broken off towards the end of the femur or towards the top of the fibula. I did see a bit of a thin, white broken something but a lot of the bird's feathers are broken off and it looks like the same thing. Not sure if it is a broken feather or broken bone. There is some "meat" exposed but there seems to be a bit of healing going on. Nothing is raw, bleeding or oozing.

Pigeon's sternum is bare and slightly raw.

Poor Pigeon's rump is all plucked and he/she has NO tail feathers at all. Not a single one! I'd say he/she is bald for about 2 inches.

I look forward to hearing everyone's feedback!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, well, all of the tail and wing feathers will grow back in time, so you would never know that they look like they do right now. I'll leave it for others to comment on the leg, but I think they will need the clear, more detailed photos I spoke about getting tomorrow to give their best feedback.

Going to go spend some family time, until tomorrow,

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...if the Wing is whole but chewed somewhat and merely missing many Feathers, time will tell, but, it may end up being good enough to fly indoors with.

Keep it slathered with the 'Neosporin' of course, anywhere you see any broken skin or chewed areas.

A flight-able Pigeon with one Leg can get by very well as an indoor Bird.

I have two myself, as well as a few others who have one 'Rubber Leg' and one 'good' Leg, where they lost some of the Bone on the one Leg, while managing to keep the Leg...they also get along and fly and land and so on, very well.

I have one who has half-a-Wing on one side, who can fly well enough to get onto Table Tops, or, from there, onto high shelves...which sure amazed me!

So, let's keep our Fingers crossed there on that...since a Chewed Wing is infinitely better to have as a prospect for healing and for the future, than a half-a-Wing or than 3/4rs of a Wing, or a no-Wing is, far as future Flight possibilities go.


Anyway, do look very carefully at the Leg stump to see what can be observed about it.

Refer please to the anatomical chart for naming the Bones.

Feathers on Legs can be plucked out one at a time with Tweezers, or trimmed short with Cuticle Scissors...and, this is often done when needing to address Leg injuries.

If any Bone is sticking out, there may be need for an experienced hand for a procedure to modify the condition for a sutured closure, so all may heal well and not give problems. 


Slather the 'Neosporin' thinly onto any areas which appear to be abraded or into any punctures on his back or tummy and so on, while you are at it...also.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Good Morning Pigeon Peeps!!

Poor Pigeon had a good night. 3 poops and a decent amount of eating and drinking. He/she always eats a few bites and has a good sip of water or two when I go in and prompt him/her. He/she moved around a bit during the night, as he/she wasn't in the same spot this morning. 

This morning he/she seemed extremely alert. I just got done administering the second dose (4 drops) of the meds, using the pen method. I also slathered Poor Pigeon up with Neosporin. Later today, I'd like to give it another bath so I can get it cleaned up to take some good photos. Yesterdays saline bath wasn't very effective at removing the dirt, grime and dried blood. Any advice on this? Yesterday I used a big bowl but maybe part of the reason is was uncomfortable was because it was too confining. What about putting water in the bathtub? And what about using a mild soap? I feel like that might help with some of the grease and grime. (Keep in mind, I found this bird sitting in the drain at a gas station car wash.)

So my plan for today is: let Pigeon hang out a bit while I get some other things done. Then, I'll go out to get the Fishzole, tiny syringe and any other needed supplies (not sure what else those are at this point. Any suggestions would be appreciated.). Later this afternoon, I'll give the bird a bath, trim feathers around wound, re-slather with neosporin and administer the new meds. Then this evening, after he calms down from all of that, I'll take pics and post them here. Does his sound good? Am I missing anything?

Thanks again for all of your guidance!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Glad your little one had a good night. he/she is going to need a name soon.

A little mild soap, most rehabbers here seem to use Dawn dish soap, should be fine, as well as bathing in the tub instead of a large bowl, just make sure you have control of him at all times, hands gently, but firmly around his body, also, don't keep him in too long, as soaking will only prematurely loosen his scabs. The biggest thing is you want to be quite careful around any wounds and scabs to make sure nothing is disturbed, as we don't want to take any chances in a bleed starting up. Just get some Kleenex, or paper towels, after to blot, don't wipe, him up to help dry him out.

The rest sounds good, you may want to pick up a few small syringes, as he will be on meds for a few weeks, and the rubber plungers in them can sometimes start to seize up a bit after a number of uses. Glad to hear the Fishzole is on your agenda, please let us know when you get it and we'll get it mixed up, it will be almost like we did for the Sulfa med.

It's really good that he seems to be self sustaining (eating and drinking on his own) as with people new to looking after a sick bird, when they are not doing this it can be a bit challenging to get them feed and watered by us having to do it for them.

Others may have comments, but so far, so good, we will be waiting for the photos.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie, 



Look for any Punctures...which by now would be a slight 'bump' with a little scab Plug.

If finding any, let us know.


Otherwise, since there has been so much delay about cleaning the wounds, I would not bother fussing with them now, at this point.

Blood and debris which is superficial needs to be cleaned initially, for various reasons, including that it allows one to see and evaluate the wounds or injuries, to then determine if other or deeper cleaning or debriding is called for.

Delays of three days, will make it very difficult for someone new to it, to do any good or accomplish anything worth the troubles...or avoiding more harm than good.

Whatever is there, is there, and, I would say just leave it be. As things heal, any debris or dirt or whatever will simply fall off with the scabs or with whatever rejected tissue parts...which will be over the next several weeks.

He is on a systemic Antibiotic, and, injury sites have had topical antibiotics...so, 'good enough'.


Just see if you can rule out any eye tooth Puncturs of his Body, or, if finding any, let us know.


Metronidazole could be applied to the Bead Pills also. [Edit - meant to say "BREAD" Pills ]


Putting liquids into a Bird's mouth can go very wrong, very fast, and if there is a safer way, may as well elect the safer way.


He is able to poop alright without getting it stuck under his butt?


Phil
Lv


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Pigeon seems to be in good spirits. He is eating,drinking and pooping often. He is very alert and is moving around his box a bit. He didn't do that at all for the first 36 hours or so.

I will be heading out to pick up the supplies in 2 or 3 hours.

As far as a bath, I really do think that, if it would not hurt him, it would be benficial for the photos and as I continue to tell you what I see. Right now, he is very dirty and many of his feathersound the wounds (and elsewhere) are all crusty and matted. I can't really see what, exactly, is going on. 

There is poop stuck to the feathers around his bottom. I change his linens every 2 or 3 poos and will probably do so even more often now that he is scooting around a bit....Maybe a bath would help this? What can I do to help avoid this?

What are bead pills? Those holes in his beak?

One more thing, it seems that he drank more water when he first got here, before I made him the sugar, salt, water mix. Maybe he doesn't like it or maybe it is that he was just SO dehydrated when I first found him, he was needed to drink more? I am really starting to see that he has preferances....thought this might be one?

BTW, many of my family members and friends think I have lost my mind. Anyone else experience this?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Eeek! I called around to see which fish store I will go to, to get the Fish Zole, and none of them will be open when I am able to go (6pm)!! I am kicking myself for not tracking it down yesterday. 

How crucial is it to get it in to his system right now, seeing as I've already started the other? Can it wait until tomorrow?? Please tell me it can.... I have found a shop (that closed 12 minutes ago) where I can pick it up tomorrow. All the other shops I have called are closed for Memorial Day. I am a veteran and I completely honor and appreciate this holiday. However, admittedly, I am slighly frustrated about the observation right now!! 

I feel like this is getting me ready to have children.... I feel like quite the protective momma!!


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

"BTW, many of my family members and friends think I have lost my mind. Anyone else experience this?"

My Husband says, one day he's going to come home and find a horse in the back yard.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I grew up with horses so I don't think my fiance would be too surprised to come home and find a horse or ten in our backyard. He knows how much I love animals so, he is not a bit surprised that I rescued Poor Pigeon. He, actually, is pretty much the only one who doesn't think I have lost my mind. I think he supports me resucing animals because he knows how upset I get when I see an animal in distress and don't do anything. I fret for days....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Pigeon seems to be in good spirits. He is eating,drinking and pooping often. He is very alert and is moving around his box a bit. He didn't do that at all for the first 36 hours or so.



Glad to hear...



> I will be heading out to pick up the supplies in 2 or 3 hours.
> 
> As far as a bath, I really do think that, if it would not hurt him, it would be benficial for the photos and as I continue to tell you what I see. Right now, he is very dirty and many of his feathersound the wounds (and elsewhere) are all crusty and matted. I can't really see what, exactly, is going on.




All of that should have been done within the first hours.


Waiting like this will have made all of it ten or fifteen times more difficult.

What would have been soft 'dabbing' and sluicing with Saline, now is an address of water resistent, soap resistent dried Blood, which is like a dried Glue...very different than when still wet.


Also, if you start trying to remove Scabs, you are going to harm delicate Tissues underneath, interfere with the natural 'barrier' his Body made protect and insulate the wounds.

If you want, do a simple Bath for cleaning non wound places...tepid Water, mild 'Dawn' or similar...rinse well once done with that phase so no Soap remains in his Feathers...and gently clean all you like, while NOT messing with any scabs or wounds.






> There is poop stuck to the feathers around his bottom.




Please bring him to a Sink, hold him vertically...run tepid Water in a gentle stream from the Tap...hold him VERTICALLY, and, so his Vent area is under the Water Stream.


Use your finger tips, and gently massage off any clinging fecal or urate matter, thoroughly...make sure all Feathers and their root areas are clean.


Do this now...


And, if need be, do it every day.

Do not let any fecal or urate matter accumulate there.





> I change his linens every 2 or 3 poos and will probably do so even more often now that he is scooting around a bit....Maybe a bath would help this? What can I do to help avoid this?



See above...




> What are bead pills? Those holes in his beak?



"BREAD PILLS" 






> One more thing, it seems that he drank more water when he first got here, before I made him the sugar, salt, water mix. Maybe he doesn't like it or maybe it is that he was just SO dehydrated when I first found him, he was needed to drink more? I am really starting to see that he has preferances....thought this might be one?



A Bird who can not fly, typically will not be able to access Water...hence, becoming dehydrated...hence, the interest to re-hydrate Birds which have been grounded for however long, who have become dehydrated.


He drank more at the beginning, in rehydrating himself.

Now that he is hydrated adequately, he will drink less.




> BTW, many of my family members and friends think I have lost my mind. Anyone else experience this?



No...I have never experienced that.

I also long ago shunned and avoided and eluded and ceased to have relations with any idiot, annoying or interfering 'friends' or 'relatives' or other mooches and dolts, for all constructive and productive parts of my Life to beoutside their range, Birds and everything else, thus acheiving a peaceful, genteel, cultivated, and civilized Life, as well as continueing my education in various areas and occupations, which would have been impossible if they were around.



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Eeek! I called around to see which fish store I will go to, to get the Fish Zole, and none of them will be open when I am able to go (6pm)!! I am kicking myself for not tracking it down yesterday.
> 
> How crucial is it to get it in to his system right now, seeing as I've already started the other? Can it wait until tomorrow?? Please tell me it can.... I have found a shop (that closed 12 minutes ago) where I can pick it up tomorrow. All the other shops I have called are closed for Memorial Day. I am a veteran and I completely honor and appreciate this holiday. However, admittedly, I am slighly frustrated about the observation right now!!
> 
> I feel like this is getting me ready to have children.... I feel like quite the protective momma!!



Are you yes or no using the ACV Water for his Drinking Water now and for the next week or so?


The Metronidazole will be useful to pre-emptively address various bacteria or protozoans who can opportune on a stressed Bird, and, also, it can aid in helping his system making use of the other meds, or for the other meds reaching better, so to speak.

ACV Water similarly is a very earnest compliment for any regimen being used for Birds who have been seriously stressed, or who are ill or injured.


I would have the Metronidazole, and, the ACV_Water as parts of his regimen, along with the braod spectrum Anti-Biotic.


Poops in the nest area are not a problem, as long as they are not sticking to the Bird or getting smeared around.


Take some 6 inch wide, 10 or 12 or even 14 inch long sections of regular Hand or Bath Towel...roll these lightly into 'rolls' so they are 6 inches long.

Gently set these against his sides, so they support his Body...adjust however necessary for his comfort, which may mean one or both are at an angle a little bit.

This will also lift him just enough for pooping, and not having it get stuck to his Vent area.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You know, this is one that I'd think was either clipped by a fast-moving car or it hit a wire while in flight on that one side. The damage is consistent with that kind of event. Looks like the lower leg was completely broken off and the primary flight feathers knocked out of that wing. Hard to say, but he (or she) might eventually be able to fly again and will learn to deal with that leg, too. We'll just have to wait a month or two to see how this works out.

Pidgey


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I feel like Poor Pigeon and I are in such great hands here! This is great!

So about the bath, my objective would not be to remove scabs. I would be careful NOT to do that. I just want to clean him up a bit. Please keep in mind that I found him in a gas station car wash drain. Along with blood, he's got lots of other gunk matting his feathers together. It is making it very difficult to get a clear view of the wounded area. I did give him a bath in a bowl of saline yeserday but I don't think he enjoyed it b/c he was (for the first and only time) flapping and trying to wriggle away. Needless to say, I didn't try to hard to clean ANYTHING. I thought it might be a good idea in order to get a better view for the pictures.

As for the poop cleaning procedure, I am not even close to being a pigeon pro yet and therefore still a bit squeamish about the poop and thankful I have latex gloves on hand, but will do ASAP.

No, I made the recommend water, salt, sugar stuff. I will pick some Bragg's up in a bit.

I will try the towel rolls, but he's a little lopsided as his weight is unevenly distributed. We'll see how that works...

Yeah, I have no clue what happened to the poor little guy and probably never will. Would his tail feathers all be gone if he were hit by a car? All I can do from here on out is do my best to nurse him back to health.....

I guess knowing when a pigeon is officially "out-of-the-woods" is probably a case-by-case thing? Are there any general guidelines or rules of thumb? IE: " If he WERE bit by a cat, and didn't get antibiotics in time, the infection would claim him within X number of days."


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> I feel like Poor Pigeon and I are in such great hands here! This is great!



Glad to hear...


Amazing he has any Feathers left for so many Hands tugging on him!


Lol...



> So about the bath, my objective would not be to remove scabs. I would be careful NOT to do that. I just want to clean him up a bit. Please keep in mind that I found him in a gas station car wash drain. Along with blood, he's got lots of other gunk matting his feathers together. It is making it very difficult to get a clear view of the wounded area. I did give him a bath in a bowl of saline yeserday but I don't think he enjoyed it b/c he was (for the first and only time) flapping and trying to wriggle away. Needless to say, I didn't try to hard to clean ANYTHING. I thought it might be a good idea in order to get a better view for the pictures.



Any good brand of Shampoo...ideally 'Main and Tail', Original formula 'Dawn' dishwashing liquid, but, as may be...'Ivory',...'Palmolive'...
Baby shampoo', doesn't matter that much long as it isafe for chidlren or Horses...and just so long as all residu is rinsed out well.


Tepid to even coolish Water, leaning toward coolish probably ( since Pigeons prefer cool to even cold Water when they bathe ).


Get him clean of any lingering oil or gunk or whatever can wash away with fingertips massageing the Feathers and so on.


Clear clean water of course, fresh batch for each rinse, for a few good rinses to get all the Soap out.



> As for the poop cleaning procedure, I am not even close to being a pigeon pro yet and therefore still a bit squeamish about the poop and thankful I have latex gloves on hand, but will do ASAP.



These are not Hep-C or Aids victims with leaking wounds.

There is no reason to wear gloves, nor to worry about any of that.

Your Cats, anyone's daycare age children, or people in general, even when seeming to be healthy, door knobs, the Salt Shaker at 'Dennys', etc, are what are potentially dangerous for acquiring infectious germs, viruses, wet leprosy, and on and on and on to a list nine feet long...not a Pigeon, and not washing Pigeon poo off of the Pigeon's Vent area.

Toss the Gloves.





> No, I made the recommend water, salt, sugar stuff. I will pick some Bragg's up in a bit.


Sounds good.

Get a $1.25 Gallon of Water at any 7-11...pour out a tiny bit...add Four Tablespoons of the 'BRAGGS' raw, organic, unfiltered, Apple Cider Vinegar...and let that be his Drinking Water for the next week or so...keep it Room Temperature, of course.




> I will try the towel rolls, but he's a little lopsided as his weight is unevenly distributed. We'll see how that works...



It is because he is 'lop-sided' that one would use ( and adjust as needed, ) the Towel 'rolls'.





> Yeah, I have no clue what happened to the poor little guy and probably never will. Would his tail feathers all be gone if he were hit by a car?



Not usually, but, could happen.

Usually, if the Tail Feathers are all gone, or mostly gone, it is because a Cat or Dog or whoever grabbed the Tail, got a mouthfull ( or handfull ) of Feathers.

Pigeons can let go of Feathers instantly, if being attacked...and, as far as their instant reflex is concerned, being hit by a Car or other Vehicle, is being 'attacked'.





> All I can do from here on out is do my best to nurse him back to health...



Well...yes...provide comforts, nourishment, ministerings, medicines...etc.


That's the deal...




> I guess knowing when a pigeon is officially "out-of-the-woods" is probably a case-by-case thing?



If they die, one assumes the out-of-the-woods part, did not eventuate.

If they continue to be alive, and to improve, one gladly welcomes this, one day at a time, for a while anyway, till the 'Woods' are cleared.

Woods are not cleared yet in this situation...although it is of course very nice, and a very positive component to his prognosis, that he had done so well so far, and, is eating, pooping, and possibly soon to be preening, if not preening already.


I still do not really know what Antibiotic he has been on.

Would you remind me what it is?





> Are there any general guidelines or rules of thumb? IE: " If he WERE bit by a cat, and didn't get antibiotics in time, the infection would claim him within X number of days."


If clawed or bitten by a Cat, Hawk, or Dog or other Animal...the rule of Thumb is, if the Bird's own immune system manages to beat the resulting systemic infection, or, if somehow, no systemic infection began, then, all is well on that score.

If a systemic infection was began, and, the Bird's immune system does not beat it, then, with no right-enough Meds, death on or by day Four would usually be expected...with some of day Three already being too late, even if right meds are started then.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Been away all day doing family stuff.

Yes, you are in good hands with Phil and Pidgey.

Phil, he is on Sulfa drugs, a combo of three sulfas combined. Kennabirdie, don't forget he needs to get 0.20cc of his med every 12 hours. The metronidazole should be able to wait until tomorrow. let us know when you have it. If by some chance you have a kitchen scale around I wouldn't mind getting a weight on him. The dosing I gave you was an "average" dose and if we have an exact weight we can be a little more exact with the dosing of his medicines, as dosing for birds is mainly based on weight.

Don't forget the photos,

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Please say I can use Antibacterial Dawn. That's what I've got. A quick response would be very much appreciated as it is getting late and I still need to work on getting pics up, which takes me a long time.....

I got the Bragg's. And distilled water. Not the same story for the small syringes. All the pharmacies around here were closed. So, 4 drops (roughly .2cc) tonight??? I will get them tomorrow along with the Fish Zole. 

I have prepared a suspended solution of the API Triple Sulfa Pro Series.

And the poop- It's not disease I am worried about. It just that it is POOP and I'm am not familiar, therefore comfortable, with touching it extensively. Bear with me...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Please say I can use Antibacterial Dawn. That's what I've got. A quick response would be very much appreciated as it is getting late and I still need to work on getting pics up, which takes me a long time.....



Should be fine...



> I got the Bragg's. And distilled water.




I don't know where any recommendation of Distilled Water' came from.

I would never use that myself, for anything being injested...and never for a Bird to drink it.


Ummmm...please save that for your Car Battery...just use plain Water, ideally, purified Water, but, cold Tap Water would do, if less ideally, if letting the Tap run for a few minutes before filling a Jug.

Any 7-11 Sells Gallon Jugs of Drinking Water, which was what I had meant...they used to be 99 Cents, now they are like $1.25 or something.

One does well to avoid Tap Water because it containes too much bad things, Chlorine, Flouride, Cryptosporidium, Chlorinated Benzines, Chlorinated Hydrocarbons, neuro-toxins, molds, anaerobes...things one would best not be introducing into the system of a convelescent Bird.






> Not the same story for the small syringes. All the pharmacies around here were closed. So, 4 drops (roughly .2cc) tonight??? I will get them tomorrow along with the Fish Zole.



What do you need Syringes for..?


I hope you are not going to be trying to put liquids down the Bird's throat with jamming it into their mouth or throat, when you do not have any idea how to do it, do not know an esophagus from a trachea, have not even looked in there to see or find out, have no idea how dialated his trachea may be, and, when there is no need to do it. one little error there, and you kill the Bird. Why risk it?


Use the small 'Bread Pills' if needing to get 'drops' of prepared Medicines down his gullet...please...


Keep it simple, and safe for the Bird...err in his favor with any of these things.






> I have prepared a suspended solution of the API Triple Sulfa Pro Series.



I got a little lost...is this day two or day three OF his being on these meds?


Or...?


I thought all that got worked out quite a ways back..?





> And the poop- It's not disease I am worried about. It just that it is POOP and I'm am not familiar, therefore comfortable, with touching it extensively. Bear with me...



It is not like people poop...or dog poop...just pretend it is a dab of Tooth Paste and Pesto.


Gloves will totally screw up your ability to even wash the Bird, or to use your finger tips to clean Feathers while Bathing the Bird.


Yer a big Girl now...you can do it..!


Best wishes..!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I went to 7-11 and got regular Dawn. I gave Pigeon a bath, which wasn't too bad. I cleaned the poop with my bare hands! The dried chunks of blood and grit and grime did not come off as easily as I had thought they would. I didn't want to use too much soap and I didn't get to close to the stump at all. I rinsed in fresh bathwater twice.

After I got Pigeon out I blotted him off, again, steering clear of the wounds. I gently wrapped him in a towel so I could slip him over to take the pictures. I realized that there was still a lot of Neosporin around the stump, hence the white in the pictures. It really looks scabbed over and it is hard to tell what is what. I snipped a few of the feathers away for a better view. I don't know how quickly birds scab but the one that Pigeon has going on is pretty substantial. Is it possible that this happened days before I found him?

Well, here are the pics. I didn't change the towel as often as I normally would so I'd have plenty to show you..... 

I welcome your feedback!

I am about to go feed him the bread ball with 4 drops of the sulfa med mix and reapply Neosporin.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Bear with me while I get them up.....

An error has occurred.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Phil, the small syringes where my idea. I was thinking at the time that anything around .20-.30cc given a drop or two at at time to the front of the mouth and giving the bird a few seconds to "tongue" the drops down should not pose a danger to the bird. We are probably better of with the bread method, far safer, but the only thing I worry about is in the "balling", because we are only talking about a few drops of medicine, was loosing any med to the tips of the fingers when balling the bread.

Kennabirdie, they can heal up amazing fast, so the wounds could be as fresh as you thought, just healing up rapidly.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)




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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)




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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Keep in mind, this is when Pigeon was just bathed, hence the horrible looking feathers.

Also, the seeds didn't come out in the poop. They fell out of the food dish ended up in the piles of poop.

The white thing in the last two photos is a random chunk of something. I couln't see any bits of bone. I didn't want to poke around too much, though.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

I have to say, bless your heart for taking in this poor little life. You are really brave, and doing a great job. I look at his little face, and I am envious of you for getting to keep such a precious soul. I sure hope he pulls through!! Joni


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Aww thanks!! These wet pics do him NO justice. Such a PRETTY bird!! Check this out:










And Poor Pigeon has super sweet personality, to boot! Although, he wasn't to excited to be "burrito-ed" and force fed just now but he didn't peck or anything. I just hope I am being a good bird mom!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Have to give you credit. That poor thing. Pretty bird. I really hope he makes it. You'd be amazed what they can live through.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I hate to do this to you, but when he is dry do you think you could try for 3-4 close up ones, like the example below, from different angles. Try holding him like I suggested before, thumbs on back, hands over wings and under the breast a bit. There may be enough in the photos when Phil and Pidgey have a look at them, but as much detail as possible would be the most helpful.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=428783&postcount=9

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I just tried again and I couldn't get any better than the ones I already posted. Especially now the stump is all white from Neosporin. Maybe tomorrow? 

I just thought of something, I haven't seen it grasp it's remaining foot. How would I check to see if it's "working"?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

OK, try again tomorrow.

The way your little guy has his foot extended and toes flared, in a couple of the photos, I think the other leg should be just fine.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Thanks Karyn! I was't looking forward to adding another injury to the list! I guess I just assumed that because he's never grasped on to me. 

Ummm I am not sure why I thought I needed distilled water. I guess my brain has been a bit overloaded... So if all I have available right now is tap water and distilled, which is the lesser of two evils??

Is there anyway I can tell if I am dealing with a he or a she? 

Are all pigeons this sweet? Is it okay to rub it's neck and under it's beak?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Go with the tap, as the distilled is "empty" water. Run the water for a few minutes, as Phil said, before drawing off what you need.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Thank you for bearing with me as I ask a million questions.

I've got another one. I know I may be getting ahead of my self but if I can indeed nurse this sweet bird back to health, how likely is it that a one-legged bird will thrive in the wild? I have many bird feeders in my yard and many, many pigeons visit every day. IF my Poor Pigeon becomes healthy, how might he interact with them? Could he ever join that flock or would they shun him? If he never gets back to the point where he could be released, could I put him out to socialize with the other birds, from the safety of a small chicken coop for a little bit once in a while? I probably should focus on just taking it one day at a time right now but the truth is I am already a little attached to this sweet bird and I want to make his life wonderful now and later...


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Tap it is for now and I'll grab some drinking water tomorrow along with the Fish Zole.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> I went to 7-11 and got regular Dawn. I gave Pigeon a bath, which wasn't too bad. I cleaned the poop with my bare hands! The dried chunks of blood and grit and grime did not come off as easily as I had thought they would. I didn't want to use too much soap and I didn't get to close to the stump at all. I rinsed in fresh bathwater twice.
> 
> After I got Pigeon out I blotted him off, again, steering clear of the wounds. I gently wrapped him in a towel so I could slip him over to take the pictures. I realized that there was still a lot of Neosporin around the stump, hence the white in the pictures. It really looks scabbed over and it is hard to tell what is what. I snipped a few of the feathers away for a better view. I don't know how quickly birds scab but the one that Pigeon has going on is pretty substantial. Is it possible that this happened days before I found him?
> 
> ...




Sounds very good!


Well done..!


Injuries may have been a day old when you got him...hard to guess from here.


Small thin scab - there had not been much bleeding.

Big thick scab - quite a bit of bleeding.


He may have lost a meaningful amount of blood all tolled...the coagulating blobs and clots which dried to scabs of course, stopped the loss.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Dobato said:


> Phil, the small syringes where my idea. I was thinking at the time that anything around .20-.30cc given a drop or two at at time to the front of the mouth and giving the bird a few seconds to "tongue" the drops down should not pose a danger to the bird. We are probably better of with the bread method, far safer, but the only thing I worry about is in the "balling", because we are only talking about a few drops of medicine, was loosing any med to the tips of the fingers when balling the bread.
> 
> Kennabirdie, they can heal up amazing fast, so the wounds could be as fresh as you thought, just healing up rapidly.
> 
> Karyn




Ahhhh...


I'm sorry...

I just worry..!


Low Red Cell count, from Blood Losss not made up for yet...may mean a dialated Tracheal aperature not closing fully between Breaths...where ( in my imagination ) any Liquid being put into their mouth, could really be flirting with disaster.


What I do sometimes, is just use a tiny Condiment Cup or a one Shot 'Shot Glass'...

With-hold Water for a few hours or over night, so the Bird is a little thirsty, and, present the Meds in Water, in the Shot Glass, maybe just have it half full...Bird drinks 
all of it easily in one sipping..."Done"...put regular ACV or other Water back then.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

The scab on the stump and surrounding area looks very thick to me but considering Poor Pigeon lost a limb, that isn't surprising!

This is an odd question....How do the poops look to you? 

I just went to switch his water and, honestly, he is the sweetest thing ever! I am so shocked!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Wait, so should I go back to the Universal Hydrating Solution or just plain water? I am confused.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie,



Probably a Hen...


Yes...once all dry again, lets try some more images of the Leg condition.

I could not get a good sense of what I was seeing in the 'wet' images.


The 'White' artefact is 'Down'...their underfeathering, which is very light and poofey...but like a glob of wet toilet paper when wet.


Wing/Arm - as far as I could kinda sorta see - does look like it is all there, if of course injured however so...some Bones may be cracked, who knows what else, but, looks like it has it's parts and length.

Wing being the Arm itself I mean...where, the Wing has Feathers, but the Wing itself is the part the Feathers grow out of.

Distilled is very good for some things, but, for this, we would want regular Water, purified Water, which still has it's normal mineral content in it.

Distilled will pull minerals from the Bird, in effect.


Poops look alright.


Be alert for any hints of 'yellow' in the urates...or any hints of thin, netty, or thin lines of whitish or greyish white occuring on fecal matter proper...and let us know if any is seen at any point over the next few weeks.


You have been doing very well..!



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Thank you for bearing with me as I ask a million questions.
> 
> I've got another one. I know I may be getting ahead of my self but if I can indeed nurse this sweet bird back to health, how likely is it that a one-legged bird will thrive in the wild? I have many bird feeders in my yard and many, many pigeons visit every day. IF my Poor Pigeon becomes healthy, how might he interact with them? Could he ever join that flock or would they shun him? If he never gets back to the point where he could be released, could I put him out to socialize with the other birds, from the safety of a small chicken coop for a little bit once in a while? I probably should focus on just taking it one day at a time right now but the truth is I am already a little attached to this sweet bird and I want to make his life wonderful now and later...



Worry about all that later...Lol...


And, "No" as far as a one Legged Pigeon being releable to the Wild.


They need both Legs for taking off and landing...even one good Leg and one partial function but intact Leg, or a long enough 'Peg Leg' which they can walk on, they can manage fine.


One Leg, is too iffy...sooner or later they can strain or sprain the only Leg they have, and be doomed, unable to take off, landings would be injurious...they will damage their Wings trying to take off if things are urgent, get dog or cat caught...not so good.


As indoor Birds, as part of a Family, they can do very well for-ever.

In a coop or cage 'out back', not so good...usually a short miserable life.


Handicapped Birds are an all or nothing deal -


One includes them as one of the family, lets them fly freely in the house, roost on the Bookcase top, nap on your shoulder as you knit or relax, one keeps an eye on them in nice ways, checks on them many times a day, loves them, provides for them, includes them on one's lap while reading or watching tee vee, and so on.


Or, one finds someone else who will.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

So, hen? You mean it is probably a girl? 

This is all so much to think about! I am really enjoying it but must be off to bed now. Pigeon and I have work in the morning


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

One more pressing question. Where do they poop in the house?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Wait, so should I go back to the Universal Hydrating Solution or just plain water? I am confused.



Electrolyte Solutions for re-hydration protocols are for the first 24 hours one has the Bird, when a 'downed' Bird has been or had become de-hydrated...or even if one just thinks they may have.

If a Bird is not dehydrated, then it is not used.


Anything like what you had going, I would say, use rehydration Electrolytes for initial 24 hours, then switch to the ACV Water for a while there-after.


If it were me...I would be using the ACV-Water now ( 3 Tablespoons of the 'BRAGGS' Vinegar, to a Gallon of Plain Water would be fine ) for the Bird's Drinking Water, and continue it for the next four or five days.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> One more pressing question. Where do they poop in the house?



Anywhere they like...


When healthy, the poops are u-s-u-a-l-l-y easily picked up with one's fingers, or, in a Kleenex. Hormones, excitement, changes in diet, grit, or other things can sometimes cause the poops to be a little 'off' and not be easily picked up in the fingers, and, one uses a Kleenex then.


Pretty simple really!


Yes...they are very lovable, sweet, gentle Birds..naturally clean, sweet smelling, charming, and very expressive.


This is why so many people ) once getting to know a Pigeon, ) get 'hooked'.


She's reeling you in...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

kennabirdie said:


> Pigeon seems to be in good spirits. He is eating,drinking and pooping often. He is very alert and is moving around his box a bit. He didn't do that at all for the first 36 hours or so.
> 
> I will be heading out to pick up the supplies in 2 or 3 hours.
> 
> ...


LOL We ALL experience this!
Just wanted to say that we are following this thread and your doing a GREAT JOB Your in Very Good hands


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A very pretty, even smiling, and very lucky she was found and cared for, little Hen...


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Great job with your birdie! keep us updated!


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Pigeon had a good night. 3 poops and a spilled water dish. When I went in to say hello, she (??) started pecking at her seeds and eating like crazy! She does this- eats when I take the lid off her box and talk to her or pet her. She eats more when i am interacting with her than when she's left all alone. What is this all about? 

Anyways, I've got to get myself, and the bird ready for work. I am SO lucky I work in a pet fiendly office! I just hope she doesn't poop and make too much of a mess of herself. Cleaning her vent in the office would be funny!

I'll be picking up the Fish Zole and purified water today.

She had her 3rd dose of the Sulfa meds this AM.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

kennabirdie said:


> Pigeon had a good night. 3 poops and a spilled water dish. When I went in to say hello, she (??) started pecking at her seeds and eating like crazy! She does this- eats when I take the lid off her box and talk to her or pet her. She eats more when i am interacting with her than when she's left all alone. What is this all about?
> 
> Anyways, I've got to get myself, and the bird ready for work. I am SO lucky I work in a pet fiendly office! I just hope she doesn't poop and make too much of a mess of herself. Cleaning her vent in the office would be funny!
> 
> ...


I'm glad things are moving right along and she eats well for you. Is it dark in the box with the lid on it, or not?...that is the only thing I can think of as to why she wouldn't eat with lid on. Anyway, I'm glad she responds to your personal touch.

Thank you for everything you are doing for her, I sure hope and pray she will recover well, and make a wonderful pet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Kennabirdie,

I think Trees Gray had made a very good observation and comment. Most people who have coups/lofts where they keep their birds also keep a few small cages around, for isolation or hospitalization. I have a few cages very much like the one in the link below, so If one of my birds gets sick this what they stay in while inside our house getting well again.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753281&lmdn=Pet+Type

Your little one may do well recovering in something like this until later when something more permanent can be thought about. I usually drape the top with a small towel for cover to make them feel a bit "protected" inside. This kind of cage allows them to see some of the activity around the house, which they seem to enjoy, while getting better.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If using a Cardboard Box...cut a series of two inch Holes along all the sides, around whatever eve level would be for the Bird.


Use very thin sheer Cloth to drape the top, so light may come in.


One can also cut larger openings in the sides, and duct tape plastic Screening over them.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Pigeon did great at work today. Super productive.....with the poops! I sat her under my desk with the lid off of the (Rubbermaid) box. She just sat peacefully all day and stared up at me. She ate a lot and drank a decent amount of the ACV water. She seemed calm. I petted her a bit and all my co-workers thought she was great! Now onto the crappy part of the day.....

I just got out of work (late) and the few places that I found to get the Fish Zole are closed or would be closed by the time I made it there! Ugggg frustrating!! I will have to get it tomorrow & pray that this is okay. She will get round 4 of the sulfa meds in a few hours. She took them like a champ this morning. She wasn't too happy about having her mouth pried open but took them, none the less. 

On a positive note, her plucked rump is looking healthier. The skin is not as inflamed and she just looks bald, as opposed to raw and painful. She is very alert and moved around a few times today. She likes to be very close to the side of the box, with her beak centimeters away. Somtimes when I put her in the middle of the box, she scoots herself to the side. It's funny. It reminds me of being a kid and having to put my nose against the wall! I put rolled towels under her to keep her behind out of the poop and it worked like a charm. I didn't have to clean her vent at the office, after all!! Oh and she preened a today. Just a few strokes but that's good, right?

So that's my update for the day. I will try and get more pics tonight but the camera I am using is not great and there is a lot of neosporin crusted in the "armpit" and in the surrounding feathers. I am surprised at how quickly it seems to be healing! The wing is looking a bit better, too. 

I've been saying "she" but is there any way to tell?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennebirdie,


Glad to hear.


Trader Joes 'Aerosol' Olive Oil, is nice to spray a little onto their Seeds...all round good to do, good for convelescents...aids in their skin being supple too.


She looks like a Hen to me.


Preening is a Good sign...yes indeed...


You can gently clean away any build-ups of the 'Neosporin'.


Birds will always be a little ill at ease if on a floor in a Cage or Box.

If possible, have her up around elbow height...she will feel better about it.

You should start a free Album on 'fotki' or 'webshots' or other, and post all the images there you like...including daily poop close ups.

You can then refer us to the images de-jur.


Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds like she had another good day.

There are a number of threads on the forum dealing with differentiating the sex of pigeons. It's a little harder with a lone bird, as when you have a group of them, their interactions amongst one another can certainly help with this. There are a few sure ways such as DNA testing, cheap nowadays and can be done from a feather or if they lay an egg. There are other ways fanciers swear by, such as how wide the pubis bones are and head size. I still get it wrong sometimes, but if I had to guess, I would agree with Phil that your little one is a hen.

That she made a modest attempt at preening is quite a good sign, as Phil says, and the healing sounds like it's coming along quite nicely. The Metronidazole can wait another day. We have a good amount of bases covered with the Sulfa drugs she is on and the Metronidazole with help broaden things a bit more when we treat her with it.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yahhhh...and the ACV Water helping in it's ways, too...


Having the convelesent always around elbow high to us, removes just one more thing for them to be anxious or worried about...Pigeons are 'Action Birds', and, like to be able to see what is going on around them from a safe position, even if they are not able for the time being to do anything about it...so...keep that 'Box' UP high enough for her to look out and feel she is 'up' and safe from ground preditors.

Same with her riding in the Car...she needs to see out from about our own Eye level, or she can get 'Car Sick' and fast, too.


I usually just set a stout empty Cardboard Box in the passenger Seat, drape a Bath Towel over that, and, set their has-openings-so-they-can-see-out-of-it Carrier on that...wrap the Seatbelt around it, and 'presto', one happy Go-for-a-Ride Pigeon, and no Car Sickness.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

You are doing such a good job. Wow, I bet you never expected your whole life would revolve around a Pigeon!! Thank you for being there for her, she would have never survived without you! Joni


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> I will try and get more pics tonight but the camera I am using is not great


Kennabirdie, do your best to get the photos up today, as I think it's important that we have a close look at the damage done and the implications this damage may present for her recovery. Concentrate on the damaged leg, take a lot of photos from different angles, this way you will have a better chance of getting a few good ones, and as close as you can for detail, however it's very important the the closeups be clear (please refer to the example I posted for you a few of my posts ago), as the less sharp/clear they are, the less helpful they will be. If your camera does not have a closeup option, perhaps a family member/friend has one that you could borrow to get the shots done.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I will get the pictures up tonight. 

Honestly, last night I just needed to relax and I think Pigeon needed to as well. I carried her around in a towel for a bit. I think she enjoyed it. She seemed calm and interested in the world around her. After the house tour, I set her on my chest as I reclined and did some work on my laptop. OHMYGOODNESS.........Pigeon seemed to LOVE IT!! She just stared at me and nuzzled my face and neck a bit in between naps. What have I gotten myself into?!?! She is precious!!!

I covered the basics last night and again this morning. Med soaked bread balls, neosporin, ACV water, keeping her vent clean........ 

Can you tell me a bit about how pigeons bond with people? Is that a bad thing? How "needy" will she be? Are the patterns we are establishing right now the ones she will come to expect forever? For instance, I am bringing her into the office with me. Will it be stressful for her if I leave her at home alone during the day, once she is recovered? Do pigeons get "only pigeon" syndrome?

If it turns out that she needs more experienced care than I am able to provide and I have to find and give her to an experienced pigeon rehabilitator, will it cause problems if we've bonded. Are we bonding??


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## LovesPijjies (May 21, 2010)

Hello Kennabirdie

I've been following this and I'm so glad the little pijjie seems to be over the worse although it obviously will need lot more care.I would say it is definately bonding with you and seems to uderstand that you are helpig it.

My lone pigeon which did everything I did, and bonded with me like yours is loved to have people around and would fly from shoulder to shoulder, showing off, even with strangers.I guess yours probably enjoyed going to the office and various people talking to her.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pigeons are much like many other animals, there really is no one rule fits them all scenario of how they are going to interact or even bond with us. I have birds that I have hand raised from babies that treat me with indifference and then again, I have birds that I purchased or that where given to me, that are affectionate and enjoy interacting with me. She seems to have taken to you, and there is little doubt they can sense when we are trying to help them and I am sure she knows this with you. They are quite adaptable, many people here have only one bird and I am sure they will be happy to share their experiences with you on this.

Not sure a rehabber could be doing more than you are right now, outside of on the meds side of things. Like I said, it's good that she is self-sustaining, eating and drinking well on her own, as this is one of the reasons a rehabber help would be useful when they are not doing this. She so far sounds like she is healing well with her wounds and scrapes and coming along nicely. However, there is still one area of real concern, and that's her leg and whether at some point will it require a vet's help, if there is exposed bone, to cut this bone back and have the surrounding tissue sealed (stitched) over it to have a clean amputation in place. Good, clear photos of her stump and surrounding area will let us see where this may end up going.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Quick question: My Sweet, Nameless Pigeon is preening more and more. YAY!! But the wounds are currently coated with regular neosporin ointment, not the cream. Is this okay? I remember that the cream is what I should be using but I can't remember why and I ran out I ran out of it so the regular ointment was all I had. Is the regular ointment bad for her to ingest?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I called the pet supply store where I will be heading to pick up the Fish Zole to make sure it was in stock. The lady I spoke with recommended Marvel Aid Broad Spectrum Antibiotic. Thoughts?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> I called the pet supply store where I will be heading to pick up the Fish Zole to make sure it was in stock. The lady I spoke with recommended Marvel Aid Broad Spectrum Antibiotic. Thoughts?



The 'Marvel' might be a good one to have on hand...yes.


Though, for now...the one you are after is 'Metronidazole', ( not an Antibiotic, but an anti-Protozoal ) if being sometimes called by other names, like 'Fishzole', etc.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> Quick question: My Sweet, Nameless Pigeon is preening more and more. YAY!! But the wounds are currently coated with regular neosporin ointment, not the cream. Is this okay? I remember that the cream is what I should be using but I can't remember why and I ran out I ran out of it so the regular ointment was all I had. Is the regular ointment bad for her to ingest?



Not a problem...the regular Ointment is fine. If she injests a little in Preening, it will merely act as bowel-movement-encourager, same as eating Vasolene would be.


And, of course, 'Preening' is a good thing to see...and signals they are feeeling better and feeling comfortable.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, with the antibiotic ointment. My first though, was that it should not be a problem and then I did a bit of reading and have some to the conclusion that to err on the side of safety we make an adjustment with using antibacterial ointment/creams. I know you're most likely in a bit of a rush so I will explain later. The Marvel Aid is based on the same kind of drug, you already have your little one on, sulfonamides, so no it is not necessary, if anything, if they have Doxycycline, you could pick that up.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I called and they do not carry Doxycycline. Should I pick up another kind of ointment while I am out? By "making an adjustment", what do you mean? Mixing it with something? Is there something I should get on my way home?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, if you could pick up a cream like the one below that has been formulated with urea, it would be good. Urea formulations usually come in 5%,10% and 20% and 40%, eith 10% or 20% would be fine.

http://www.americarx.com/Products/16477.html

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Any suggestions on a cream that I might be able to pick up at a local pharmacy, such as Walgreens? It looks like I'd have to order the Ureacin. Should I stop with the Neosporin?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

No, don't stop the Neosporin, just make sure it is evenly coated, no "globs" she could mouth. Just ask at Walgreen's if they have a moisturizing cream with some urea in it or have a look in the hand cream section.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie, 


Karyn ( Dobato ) makes a good point here with this.


When using the 'Neosporin', I am careful to be avoiding any on the Feathers, and, to apply it onto skin or injured/abraded areas, or as may be on the Bird's Body itself...thinly, thinly so it is not going to be getting onto or into the Feathers...as well as one may closely Trim Feathers away ( sharp Cuticle Scissors ) , one at a time, to make for a naked area easier to keep clean.

Preening then is not going to occasion any meaningful ingestion of the 'Neosporin'.


'Silvasulfadiazine'

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&ei=LPA...lver+sulfadiazine&spell=1&fp=b38b25e4e04eb59c


...is usually to be preferred, but is not always easy to get on short notice, or, may require a prescription to get.


Either way, it is largely in how we use these, and, keeping things only slathered 'enough' is the idea...but in your case, you do have some areas where that is hard, or impossible to do, so, things are likely to be a little globby!

Things can get messy, especially with larger injuries...where, even wrapping the slathered area with some Gause can also be good, taped on, keeps the Bird from preening the area which is maybe liberally slathered in Ointment pro-tem.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I am on my way to get the Fish Zole, Will you tell me how to administer so if there is anything else i need to get, i can pick it up while i am out.

i stopped and special ordered a 20% urea cream from the pharmacy. it will be in tomorrow.

Sheesh....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nothing I can think of...



See what we go through all the time?


Lol...


I think you aare in good shape now...

The Metronidazole is a good one to use along with the other meds, and, soon, she will be coasting on her own steam and be off the meds anyway.


How are today's poops and urates?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I will be checking in frequently to see when you are back, when you are back, let us know and please confirm what the strength that the Fishzole you purchased is. I know what it should be, but I just want to confirm 100%.

Photos please.... best to take them when she is dry, without any ointments on the leg. If she has the leg tightly drawn in, sometimes if you nudge it at the side with your finger they will stick it out.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I got a 5 gram vial of powder. Is says usual does for fish tank is 125mg/40L. There is a measurer included and 1 measure is "about 100 mg". There isn't really a strength listed.

I am working on the photos, i took some with a friends camera today and I've brought the disk home to check them out. I'm telling you, It is very difficult to see exactly what is going on there..... And there are still chunks of neosporin stuck in spots. 

Will you tell me how to administer the new meds while I try and get these pics up?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Also, should I give bird the sulfa drug bread balls tonight, considering she'll be getting the Fish Zole too??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Need to be precise with this. Fishzole commonly comes in 250mg pills, I can work with the powder, no problem, I just want to make sure of a few things. What is the exact brand name of the Metronidazole and who is the manufacturer? Are there any other ingredients listed on the vial at all, or does it just say Metronidazole?

Yes, they can be given at the same time.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Active ingrediant: Metronidazole 100%
Manufacturer: Seachem


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> Active ingrediant: Metronidazole 100%
> Manufacturer: Seachem


Ok, good, 100% is what I wanted to hear.

Kennabirdie, as I mentioned before, the mixing instructions for the Metronidazole will be very similar to mixing up the first med, the sulfa drug, for your little girl.

Get the shot glass again and place 2 level scoops + 1/2 scoop (so 2 1/2 scoops), using the scoop provided, into it (250mg Metronidazole). We want to now add 2cc of very warm water to it. Metronidazole does not like to mix into water very well, so it will not dissolve right in like the Sulfa did. Next, measure 3cc of water into another shot glass, make a mark on the outside at this 3cc level, throw out the water and fill to this 3cc line with the Karo syrup you have. Add this now to the 2cc of the water and Metronidazole mix, stir it in well and you now have a 5% Metronidazole suspension. 

You will give your little one 0.30cc (third line on a 1cc syringe) of this twice a day, as I mentioned, it can be given at the same time as the Sulfa med if you like, but use a different piece of bread. Also. just a reminder, if you could at all manage to get a weight for her, it would be helpful both in monitoring her body mass over the next little while and to make sure we are accurate on the dosing of the meds we are giving her, as dosing of these meds is based on weight and I am just using an "average" weight.

Just a reminder to shake both meds very well before drawing out a dose and keep them in the refrigerator

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)




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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, you did good, they seem to be good closeup shots that hopefully will be able to help Phil and Pidgey plot her next steps. Get her meds mixed up and into her for now and let's wait and see what they think.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Ohmygosh. So I gave her the medicine but I think soething got in her eye. She is keeping one eye closed!!! Can i put a drop of saline in it to rinse it?!?! Poor baby!! I feel like i just made things worse!!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just use plain water to rinse with for now. Get a Kleenex soak it with warm water, place over eye and squeeze and gently pat.

Karyn


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

The eye is still having the same issue..... 

As for the meds, I am administering them with the bread balls so that is 4 balls total, 2 of each med, a 1/4in big. Isn't that kind of a lot of food? Should I stagger them? Maybe an hour between the two different meds? Her crop seems fuller than it ever has.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

kennabirdie said:


> The eye is still having the same issue.....
> 
> As for the meds, I am administering them with the bread balls so that is 4 balls total, 2 of each med, a 1/4in big. Isn't that kind of a lot of food? Should I stagger them? Maybe an hour between the two different meds? Her crop seems fuller than it ever has.


Kennabirdie, 4 breads is not a lot, but if it will make you feel a bit better just give them 1 hour apart. Please describe how much med you are applying to each ball in detail. Bath the eye again with warm water, something could have gotten under her eyelid, she should be OK though.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Saline ( as long as the Salt is indeed dissolved,) is fine for Eyes and will sting a lot less than plain Water.


Ummmmm...I can not figure out the salient details the image represents...I will try again later...


I see a Bone and Joint I think...but I am not getting a good sense of what is going on there just yet.

If what I think is Bone, is Bone, then I am glad to see it appearing "White" and Live.

This is one benifit of all that 'slathering' of 'Neosporin' - if an exposed Bone is exposed to the Air, it both dies, and can then also draw it's own resulting infection, in and up....in effect, making complications for later tidy-ups.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Karyn, Usuing the drop method (no small syringe), .2cc (4 drops) of sulfa drgs and .3cc (6 drops ) metronidazole in 4 1/4 inch pieces bread.

Phil,I have no idea what is going on there, either. There are some white chunks of neosporin which I am scared to remove. The stump and the surronding area are all scabbed with blood, dirt, grime, flesh and neospirin. I am not comfortable with cleaing any of it. What would happen if we waited untill she healed a bit more? In the meantime, shoud I cover it in guaze to keep it out of the air and hopefilly prevent infection spread?

I don't think she likes the ACV water- 1 gal to 4tbs. It smells like ACV. She drank a lot more of the electrolye solution and plain water. She won't drink much of it...I wouldnt drink it either. It kinda has a strong odor. Maybe I could dilute?


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

Oh, and the eye is better.... thank goodness!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Phil,I have no idea what is going on there, either. There are some white chunks of neosporin which I am scared to remove.



That's fine...


These things are hard to decide if you are not used to them...or, hard to understand if not present, and regarding images like we are on this end.

Difficult for everyone!




> The stump and the surronding area are all scabbed with blood, dirt, grime, flesh and neospirin. I am not comfortable with cleaing any of it.




That is Okay...it all looks quite 'Healthy' to me, you have done so well with all of this, I am very happy about that...even if it may not be ideal in some small ways, erring on the side or prudence has been good. Not invasively fussing with it, has been good.

Her Body will simply reject whatever it/she does not wish to retain of the debris, dirt, dead tissue if any is present, and so on. This is not a problem.

I think it all looks pretty darned good...and, we will continue to communicate about it untill Karyn, Pidgey maybe, anyone else who is somewhat experienced in serious injury things they have overseen, and me, feel like we have a correct understanding of the details to form an opinion on what should follow then, and, howso.




> What would happen if we waited untill she healed a bit more?



I think that would be fine...


We will keep trying to get a clearer mental picture or understanding, by asking further questions of you about the details you can see in the wound area.




> In the meantime, shoud I cover it in guaze to keep it out of the air and hopefilly prevent infection spread?



The only real concern presently, far as I can say, is any 'Live' Bone which might be exposed to Air...so, if any Live Bone is in a vulnerable position in that regard, then may-as-well "yes", slather Neosporin onto some small folded bit of Gause so it is permiated very well, slather some onto the Bone end, cover it well with the permiated Gause, cover THAT with some plain Gause, and tape it on so it may protect from Air as it may...remove and inspect maybe every other day to see how things look...or every day, re-do, if you like, and inspect.

I think that would be fine as a pro-tem measure, pending decisions on what shall appropriately follow.



> I don't think she likes the ACV water- 1 gal to 4tbs. It smells like ACV. She drank a lot more of the electrolye solution and plain water. She won't drink much of it...I wouldnt drink it either. It kinda has a strong odor. Maybe I could dilute?



Try 'Three' tablespoons to the Gallon then...Lol...( some like it more than others ).

Add a little Honey maybe...see if that helps...

Shifting her Crop PH is part of the aim of this...the ACV-Water for being Acidic, helps reduce or eliminate a wide range of potentially opportuning Bacteria and Microbes and so on, which can otherwise start to 'bloom'.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay, Leg Stump Questions - 


If we refer to the diagramme -



Bearing in mind, their 'Thigh' or Femur, is entirely UNDER their Skin on the side of their Body, and hence is not a free extending part of the Leg...


http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/46/51946-004-D003BC49.gif


Are we seeing the top half-inch or a little less of the Tibiotarsus there?


A Top-Joint and a little short length of Bone, with an angle 'cut' on it's end?


In refering to the Illustration showing the Bones, and those of the Leg, the Tibiotarsus being labeled at the Bottom, but of course the whole long Bone is Tibiotarsus...


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Are we seeing the top half-inch or a little less of the Tibiotarsus there?
> 
> 
> A Top-Joint and a little short length of Bone, with an angle 'cut' on it's end?


Yes, I think that sounds about right!!! It looks like the cut is a little below a joint. I can't believe you could make out the mess in the pictures! Good job!

This bird is something else!! Lots of preening today and, call me crazy, but I think I see feathers starting to grow under the skin of her rump!?!?! She really is healing quickly!!

I diluted the ACV water and she seemed to prefer that... picky bird 

She has been trying to stand every once in a while. Poor thing is all sorts of off balance....

I've been spending time with her out of the box in the evening, carrying her around in a towel or basket and sitting her on my chest when I am reclining. I think she really likes it! In the morning, I set her on the counter, in a basket lined with a towel and she seems sooo content. I can't beleive how mellow she is (for the most part). My fiance looks at us and says "I cannot believe there is a wild bird, just hanging out on you."


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

*Just some encouragening words*

You have been given a gift, thank goodness you appreciate it. As hard as all this is to take in, it is a miracle that this poor bird found such a good caregiver. Now you understand, a little more than before, the meaning of life.--with all the good and the bad in this world, there is no greater feeling than feeling appreciated by an innocent creature who completely depends on you for living. You are doing so much for her, and she is giving back!! This will be a life altering experience for you both!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi kennabirdie, 





kennabirdie said:


> Yes, I think that sounds about right!!! It looks like the cut is a little below a joint. I can't believe you could make out the mess in the pictures! Good job!


Please go back to the Bone/Anatomy Chart Link, and, let us know for sure the location of the end of the Bone I thought I maybe was seeing, and or give us a from-scratch description, using the Bone names seen in the Pigeon Skeleton image - tell us what Bones are missing, and, what Bone or Bones are present...and or also what parts are missing from any remaining incomplete Bones.

Bearing in mind, their Femur is normally entirely under Skin along the side of their Body...use her 'good' side as a reference in making very sure of your accounting of the injured side and it's losses, presents.


Okay...we will do that then.


Then, we can regard the condition there of the remaining Leg portion, being sort of 'open' and all in it's way...looks like it is all nice and healthy, skin edges supple and so on once one is a little bit back from the edge itself...


Assuming the Bone and Bone end are in fact 'Live' and no necrosis/darkening or infection there...there will need to be a little bit of final Tidy-Ups.


We can all discuss this in detail in subsequent posts, and review and discuss it untill we are all satisfied we have things straight and clear every which way.


I have seen no need for this aspect to be rushed nor urgent, and so somewhere around now, over the next few days, in a nice easy going way, we can begin to assay this in-effect last injury-address phase of her initial get-well-phase adventure.





> This bird is something else!! Lots of preening today and, call me crazy, but I think I see feathers starting to grow under the skin of her rump!?!?! She really is healing quickly!!



Lovely!


It's all that good chow, too I bet.


Those back and rump feathers can come in like Gangbusters too...her system just wanted to catch up a little before electing to put energy into growing them, and, now she is into the growing them expendature, since she has enough in her Budget to 'spend' on doing that now.


Very good sign..!

Their Body is really about like a slightly lumpy 'Potato' in shape...one would never guess this by admiring all the Feathers...Lol...






> I diluted the ACV water and she seemed to prefer that... picky bird



Glad to hear ...everyone Pigeon is a unique individual...each will have their tastes and preferences..!




> She has been trying to stand every once in a while. Poor thing is all sorts of off balance...




You can gently support her from underneath, with your fingers, from the side orfront and back, or however, for her to stand for little brief periods on her one Leg...this will help her get it stronger and limber...so, however many little brief 'exercises' of that kind you can support and help her with, each day, the better.


Maybe soon, get a Helium Baloon on a long Ribbon, or a slender Rod on a fulcrum, with a Cord or String, which will be able to lift say, 1/2 or 2/3rds of her weight or so...make a little comfy Harness, and, see if that lets her hop around on and exercise the one Leg.


Do you have a Cage yet?




> I've been spending time with her out of the box in the evening, carrying her around in a towel or basket and sitting her on my chest when I am reclining. I think she really likes it! In the morning, I set her on the counter, in a basket lined with a towel and she seems sooo content. I can't beleive how mellow she is (for the most part). My fiance looks at us and says "I cannot believe there is a wild bird, just hanging out on you."




Every one is different, but, usually, if hurt or sick and needing lots of help and fussings, if one is kind, and if a rapport and trust is established, and they feel respected, they can indeed become very much a part of one's family in an active real way, and, they accept you as part of their family at the same time, and they like to be with you and be included in whatever you are doing.


Do you have any Seamstress experience? Good with Sewing?



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds like another good day for her. I am glad to hear about the preening, as I always look to them doing this, or not doing this, to judge on how they truly are feeling. Any luck with trying to get a weight for her, no emergency, but I wouldn't mind confirming she is getting the correct amount of meds for her weight.

Keep up the good work,

Karyn


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Kennabirdie, I was just speaking with Phil by PM and we both agree, we need one more set of photos for now. The current photos, while very good in clearness and detail are a little too "wet" looking to be 100% sure of what is being seen, and being 90% sure really is not good enough for your little guy to be making important decisions. If you could quickly bathe him, get him well dried up, and take another set of photos it would be very helpful. Try and get one good one from the side, wing pulled back a bit to get a good view. Soon as you are finished, get the area/bone coated with the Neosporin again.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yeah...and or, kennebirdie, if you would review the Anatomny link and Bone locations and their names, and, taking the Inventory there with her, help us decide if the Femur is in fact present ( traced to the small of her Back, where the Hip Joint is) , and, whole...and or if the Tibiotarsus is present and whole, or present only partially...etc.

And, whatever you can do for making a few more images, representing this, and or with her poised for this to be represented, if possible.


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

I am thinking that a bit of the Tibiotarsus is present and I can see the tip of it (cut at and angle). Here is an album of pics shot last night and tonight. Please tell me what you think. 
http://s737.photobucket.com/albums/xx11/kennabirdie1/Injured Pigeon/


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## kennabirdie (May 30, 2010)

My sweet bird is sill in excellent spirits, especially considering the ordeal it has been through and continues to go through with all of the medicine balls, vent cleanings, baths, pictures and so on. She has been quite the trooper! 

For the most part, I am still keeping her in the Rubbermaid box when I am not holding her or carrying her around the house in a basket. I got her some pigeon food which she seems to enjoy. The sunflower seeds (no shells on the ones in this mix) are her favorite and she picks them all out of the dish before she eats anything else!! She does not enjoy the ACV water but has been drinking more of it since it has been diluted and mixed with a touch of honey. 

I have noticed that new feathers will soon be sprouting in many places, including around her stump.

She continues to preen often but doesn't like anyone to watch her.

This bird is something else. When I think about the ordeal she has been through, I am amazed that she is alive!! When I first found her, I told someone "I basically found half a pigeon, plus the head." Now I realize that she is a lot more than that!!

The idea of cutting her bone and stiching her up totally FREAKS me out. I am really hoping that there will be a way around that. Can't I just attach a peg-leg over the stump and bone bit?? I am only kidding. I will do what ever it takes to make sure she has a healthy, happy life. If I do have to peereform some type of surgery on her, could we wait a few days? I imagine that this has been quite traumatic for her and it hasn't been the easiest experience for me either. I think it would do us both some good to have a few relaxing days....... but again, I'll do what is best for her.....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> I am thinking that a bit of the Tibiotarsus is present and I can see the tip of it (cut at and angle). Here is an album of pics shot last night and tonight. Please tell me what you think.
> http://s737.photobucket.com/albums/xx11/kennabirdie1/Injured Pigeon/



Hi kennebirdie, 


Very good...good images.


Let us brood...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

kennabirdie said:


> My sweet bird is sill in excellent spirits, especially considering the ordeal it has been through and continues to go through with all of the medicine balls, vent cleanings, baths, pictures and so on. She has been quite the trooper!




You can probably quite easily work out a little routine with her, for lifting her up enough for her to excericse her Leg...this also can very easily include her being able to poop during these lift-up times, thus alleviating some of the difficulties which pooping laying down occasions for you both.


I have done this many times with Pigeons who had injuries where they could not stand for the time being...and, once they get into the pattern of being held for pooping, and or for Leg excercise, they are glad to work with it and enjoy it's advantages.



Just talk with her about it, one on one, let her know you are glad to Hold her up a little ways, for her to excercise the 'good' Leg, and, also for her to poop comfortably...talk about it before hand, talk about it while doing it, talk about it every time till you have worked out between you.





> For the most part, I am still keeping her in the Rubbermaid box when I am not holding her or carrying her around the house in a basket. I got her some pigeon food which she seems to enjoy. The sunflower seeds (no shells on the ones in this mix) are her favorite and she picks them all out of the dish before she eats anything else!! She does not enjoy the ACV water but has been drinking more of it since it has been diluted and mixed with a touch of honey.



Sounds good...


Something she can see out of would be best...I have no iodea how tall the Rubbermais 'tub' sides are...but, even a lowish Cardboard Box, with aperatures cut into the sides, would have to be better than a plastic Tub I would think...it would 'breathe' better also.


Good for their moralle to be able to see out and around them.





> I have noticed that new feathers will soon be sprouting in many places, including around her stump.
> 
> She continues to preen often but doesn't like anyone to watch her.



She is a little concerned about moments where she can not see around her.

If she could see around her better, this would probably lessen.





> This bird is something else. When I think about the ordeal she has been through, I am amazed that she is alive!! When I first found her, I told someone "I basically found half a pigeon, plus the head." Now I realize that she is a lot more than that!!



Yes...much more...




> The idea of cutting her bone and stiching her up totally FREAKS me out. I am really hoping that there will be a way around that. Can't I just attach a peg-leg over the stump and bone bit?? I am only kidding. I will do what ever it takes to make sure she has a healthy, happy life. If I do have to peereform some type of surgery on her, could we wait a few days? I imagine that this has been quite traumatic for her and it hasn't been the easiest experience for me either. I think it would do us both some good to have a few relaxing days....... but again, I'll do what is best for her.....




It can wait...and should wait, untill a clear understanding of what is to be done, and how it is to be done, is acheived, and, rehursed in dialogue several times, regardless of who is going to do the procedure.


How loose is the skin and muscle or whatever else which is around and 'up' from the Bone end?


Is it able to be pulled over the 'end' do you think? Can you gently work it, from say, an inch or so up from the end, or farther even, work it and coax it ( within reason of course, ) to see if it could be pulled down far enough? It might take a quite a few small sessions of coaxing it gradually...


The thing is, the nature of the injury there will eventually heal even if nothing else is done...but, this would take a long time indeed, and, would be needing to be kept 'slathered' with 'Neosporin the whole time for trying to protect the exposed Bone from Air...and or it may not manage to enclose the Bone, and, the ends of the Bone would be sticking out even though everything got done healing according to it's ability under the circumstances, which would be not so good as we would wish.


So, say, if the Skin above the end, is loose enough along enough of it's length, to be pulled down and around and over the end, with a little to spare, it could probably be Sutured quite simply, and then kept dabbed lightly with the 'Neosporin', and, it would then be expected to finish healing up fairly fast then, like in a week or so...with a good resolution.


If the skin is not loose enough to be pulled down and over the 'end', then, the usual recourse is for the Bone to be shortened, so as to allow the skin to be pulled over and a good closure accomplished with a few Stitches/Sutures.


If the Bone end is darkened or dead, one has to decide whether this is meaningful or if it implies a Bone infection, and then decide on removing the offending portion of Bone, so to remove any Bone infection from being enclosed inside the closure once sutured.


Like that...


Things to investigate, things to try and see, things to decide...and no hurry...no rush.


This will be the 'next' installment milestone in her convelescent get-well sequences, of her and your adventure in fact, in this whole thing...the Wound and Bone question finding it's resolution and closure...and, on from there then...with funner, easier, more light Hearted, less stressful things to enjoy.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kennabirdie said:


> My sweet bird is sill in excellent spirits, especially considering the ordeal it has been through and continues to go through with all of the medicine balls, vent cleanings, baths, pictures and so on. She has been quite the trooper!
> 
> For the most part, I am still keeping her in the Rubbermaid box when I am not holding her or carrying her around the house in a basket. I got her some pigeon food which she seems to enjoy. The sunflower seeds (no shells on the ones in this mix) are her favorite and she picks them all out of the dish before she eats anything else!! She does not enjoy the ACV water but has been drinking more of it since it has been diluted and mixed with a touch of honey.
> 
> ...


Another member asked me to look at this thread...
*Other members are freaked out *about what you have been advised to do.
*As it should.*
In my opinion, the advise you have been given is totally inappropriate and this bird needs to be seen by a veterinarian that is comfortable treating birds.
The bird must be in terrible pain and needs pain management. If you wish to save this bird and keep her as a companion, that's a good thing, but all this do it yourself is not good.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

I am the one who is TOTALLY FREAKED OUT, and I am not ashamed to say so.

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I am appalled that there has not even been one mention of getting this bird to a Vet.

For any member of this forum to advocate/advise anyone to cut/shorten a bone and suture without anesthesia is BLATANT ANIMAL CRUELTY.

The advice being given here is totally inappropriate. These types of procedures should only be preformed UNDER ANESTHESIA BY A LICENSED VETERINARIAN.

Also, as Charis has mentioned this bird must be in terrible pain and needs pain managemnt.

Kennabirdie..........P L E A S E......get this bird to a Vet, preferably an Avian Vet as soon as possible.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There is a vet in your city that treats pigeons. Ask for Sarah or Megan should you call. I've told them I'm giving you this contact info.


Duffin, Kay, Dvm - Town & Country Animal Hospital 

(505) 897-8200

8414 4th St NW 
Albuquerque, NM 87114 35.1771 -106.6296 


In my opinion, you should have had all effort from your first post ,to find a veterinarian that can treat this bird.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I finally got back in the office and have had a look. There's certainly no point in worrying about retaining any function in that leg as way too much of it's gone. Obviously. As to the pain, yeah, there will be some but the body has long since shut down those nerves--that's normal. There's absolutely no point in trying to suture anything up at this point, it's already closing off on its own and the re-epithelialization has begun. If you try to mess with it much, you're really just running the risk of adding insult to injury. At this point, all that would be achieved is scoring points in the long-running political war here between the various factions. I'm sorry if that sounds more than a little bit cynical and harsh, but I've kinda' come to point where I'm getting sick of it. Y'all might as well wait awhile and see how it heals out in a couple of weeks before getting into the same old battles.

Pictures taken with a flash, by the way, have a nasty tendency to "flatten" the image and that makes it more difficult than you might think to see what's actually there.

Pidgey


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello.... first off let me just state that at 140+ posts, it is impossible for me to have read everyone's reply.

But looking at the first 4 pages and then this last one...something strikes me...and it's a simple question:

Has anyone (prior to the above few replies) suggested that you take this poor pigeon to an Avian Vet ? NOT a wildlife facility or such...but a _*certified avian vet ?*_

if they have, my apologies....but it seems to me that while folks may be doing their best instructing you on home remedies....this injury is beyond home remedies.

This is NOT about political wars, BTW..so anyone who thinks of digressing this thread along those lines should really just not go there, please....* it is about admitting when injuries exceed the abilities of a non-licensed, non-trained good pigeon samaritan.
*
And I think this condition is just that.

kennabirdie...you have done a marvelous job to date in keeping this bird alive and fairly stable....but I am guessing that you have no training in either human or animal medical care/nursing (beyond what has been suggested here). And I can tell you with surety that while many folks here have a lot of experience with treating pigeon injuries, nobody among us is a trained veterinarian....

Now the time has come for professional intervention....so please get your friend to an Avian vet. Just confirm with them (nicely) that it is not your intention to put down your friend, nor would you be forced to do so....so they understand this from the get-go. While a wildlife facility would play hardball with that...a paid avian vet would honor it.....

It will not be inexpensive... but at this stage, you have cared for your buddy so well and so long it would be an incredible risk to do otherwise.

There's a time to just say that you have done the best you can, and more help is needed.

Please, no more home interventions beyond administering meds and supportive care. No Cutting, no filing, no stitching. This injury is hecka serious....if it is at the condition where surgical procedures are req'd....and it sounds like it is...that bird needs a VET.


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Kennabirdie, 

I just wanted to say how wonderful that you have given this bird a chance and are so dedicated to caring for her despite the relative extreme nature of her injuries. Many people would have just opted to have her killed instead. Knowing that there are people like you out there makes me feel better about the world.

Are you planning to keep her?

Jennifer


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

By the way, those wounds look great! What you're not seeing is the buildup of yellow coloring around the edges of the pink flesh that would denote a massive inflammatory response in the area. What that essentially means is little-to-zero infection and very little indication of extended pain (constant pain & irritation begets the inflammatory response).

Pidgey


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

lwerden said:


> I am the one who is TOTALLY FREAKED OUT, and I am not ashamed to say so.
> 
> I have been following this thread from the beginning and I am appalled that there has not even been one mention of getting this bird to a Vet.
> 
> ...


A agree with you 100% Louise. 

As far as I know, no one giving advice in this thread is a qualified vet, so let's refrain from giving advise only a qualified vet should be giving. Which I'm quite sure it wouldn't be advising a layperson to perform any type of DIY procedure involving cutting any bones, etc.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I just wanted to say how wonderful that you have given this bird a chance and are so dedicated to caring for her despite the relative extreme nature of her injuries. Many people would have just opted to have her killed instead. Knowing that there are people like you out there makes me feel better about the world.


Ditto!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The discussion has been about what would normally be done for the resolution of the injury as it is now.


This is being dicussed for kennebirdie to understand in detail, for her own edifications, and, so any conversations or interviews with a Vet or other qualified practioner, can occur in an informed and useful way.


Bone may not have to be shortened...Bone may be fine as it is...what may need to be done to the Bone, will depend on the conditions being reviewed, so she can evaluate the pronouncements of the Vet ( who may or may not be any good at dealing with this sort of injury at this stage).


The process of finding and interviewing a Pigeon friendly Vet, has not yet been began, since we are taking things one step at a time...and, there has been no hurry under the circumstances, to rush onto a review of the details germain to this phase of the Bird's recovery.


That is the over-view.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quote:*THIS IS WHAT KENNEBIRDIE SAID:*
The idea of cutting her bone and stiching her up totally FREAKS me out. I am really hoping that there will be a way around that. Can't I just attach a peg-leg over the stump and bone bit?? I am only kidding. I will do what ever it takes to make sure she has a healthy, happy life. If I do have to peereform some type of surgery on her, could we wait a few days? I imagine that this has been quite traumatic for her and it hasn't been the easiest experience for me either. I think it would do us both some good to have a few relaxing days....... but again, I'll do what is best for her.....

*And this is how you answered her Phil.*
It can wait...and should wait, untill a clear understanding of what is to be done, and how it is to be done, is acheived, and, rehursed in dialogue several times, regardless of who is going to do the procedure.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Now don't try to say that you are not advising her to do it herself. If a vet were to be seen and doing any needed surgery, then your last statement would not have been necessary. Also, you would have corrected her and told her that you did NOT mean for her to do it. You didn't do that did you?

Kennebirdie--Get the bird to a vet. Charis has given you the name and number of a vet in your area. To even consider doing something like this to a bird without a vet or anesthesia is BARBARIC AND CRUEL. You have cared for the bird up to this point. And have done all that you can. This poor bird is in pain, and needs a vet. I find it amazing that the people helping you have not already told you that, as that would have been the best advice that anyone could possibly give you. It is one thing to administer medications, another thing entirely to do surgery on any animal. This is leaning dangerously toward animal cruelty.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Just got in from a long and trying day to find some disapponiting posts.

Charis, I am disappointed because we were corresponding this morning, concerning another thread. You knew my schedule for the day, that I would not be around until later, so I don't see why any concerns could not have waited a bit and initially tried to be dealt with through PM, instead as perhaps turning up the heat and causing controversy, where doing this really may not have been necessary. This little guy was in no immediate danger of having any procedures performed on him.

As I see it, this bird really should have died from her initial injuries when her metatarsal vein was ruptured from the severing of the leg, she should have bled out, but she didn't. In the first number of days, her prognosis was quite guarded, as we did not know whether she would succumb to a pasteurella infection or not, or possible internal injuries, but again she has survived.

As a preface, I don't know whether any of you has lost a bird from anesthesia, I have, physically my bird my was not 100% and the vet said this was the contributing factor in his death. Just so you know, right from the being there was PM going on between Phil, and myself about her being able to survive anesthesia in a weakened state, we did not want to hear "the operation was a success, but I am sorry the patient died", which is a real possibility with a compromised bird.

As she became more stable and started to rally, we were on KB, to get some clear photos up so we could see what was going on with her leg, go through the posts, numerous request were made. It was only late Wednesday, two days ago she got them up and were too wet looking to properly discern things, so another request was made for dryer, more clear photos which were done yesterday. Jaye, I know you tempered your words a bit, because of late we have ben trying to be cordial to one another, after butting heads a bit, but I think if you are going to become involved, then it's incumbent on you to take 5 minutes and read the whole thread, it must have taken you much longer than that to write the post you did. You say you read the last 4 pages ( I calculated when you made your post, although we are now on page 11, ealier, when you psoted, my post would have been in those four pages), but in my post #104 I clearly state to KB that we may need to get this to a vet if cutting and suturing is required: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=477135&postcount=104 and in post number #138: http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=477503&postcount=138, I can assure you where I say, "to be making Important decisions", means getting this bird into a vet if surgical procedures were to be required.

Charis, Phil has had this link in his hands, since late Wednesday or early yesterday http://www.aav.org/search/results.php?filter=state&q=NM&Submit=Search it is a list of all the recommended Avian Association Of America Vets in Albuquerque, that happens to contain the name of the vet you posted, so that it would be at hand to post for KB, so she could make some calls and do some inteviews to get a feeling on them. Is there anyone here that could have assured KB when this bird was at its worst, or even now for that matter, after taking her in and telling them her bird was a "pet", that after admission they could not have informed her, "we have reason to believe you have not been entierly truthful about this bird, so we are seizing it in the bird's best interest and will humanely euthanize it? We have time, this bird have did it's part so far, let's make sure we get this bird into the right hands. This bird is acting well, is bright looking and preening, birds in a lot of pain don't desire to preen, and I know this from experience.

As I mentioned, I have been largely away the last few days dealing with a family health matter, and I am just catching up with some of the information Phil has posted, I am just getting to know Phil a bit better, but It looks like speculation on what if scenarios. The bottom line for me though is since this bird was in no immediate health crisis or danger of a procedure being done, why were PM inquiries not made. Charis, if for whatever reason there was a hesitencty to PM Phil, why wasn't one directed to me. Something like "Karyn I and others have some real concerns about some things that are being talked about and suggested in the thread, can you put our minds at ease." I would have responded with the information I provided here, to provide assurances a vet was in the works and I would be advocting for one if needed. Plus, I PMed Pidgey for his thoughts on what we should be doing and where we should be going with this bird. For gosh sakes, you asked me to make a call for you this morning, which I did, so it not like we have bad lines of communication, so try as I may, I can see no good reason a PM could not have been made prior to possibly turning the thread's attention off healing this bird.

Look, Phil doesn't need me to defend him, but Phil has been on here for years and my gut feeling on this guy is that he would rather step in front of a Mack truck then to bring harm to a bird. I am much newer here, but I hope for those who have read any of my posts, they feel I have some skills and knowledge. Bearing that in mind, I don't see why either of us could not have been consulted off board, as there was mention, for those who took the time to read the whole thread of PM activity between Phil and I and should have been a bit of an indicator that there may be information or particulars that may not may been posted on the forum yet. 

I do truly understand the concerns, I just think a different approach could have been initiated. I myself have PMed a number of members when I have had thoughts, concerns, or caught an error they may have inadvertently made with advice, as not to take a thread off topic, this is a common courtesy that I am suggesting should be extended to all members before escalating things in public when there is no imminent danger.


Karyn


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Phil.....If it was not your intent to have this person do this procedure to the bird herself. Can you please explain why in the last sentence of your post #136 you asked her:

"Do you have any Seamstress experience? Good with Sewing?"

Phil, if this bird had been in your care, you would have already had this bird in Dr. Hack's office. I know for a fact that you have brought birds to the Vet that have had much less serious injuries than this bird. For you and Dobato aka Feralpigeon to discuss these procedures in theory is one thing, but to advocate that this person attempt this under your rehersals and instructions is ludicrous.

Kennebirdie.......Please, GET THIS BIRD TO A VET.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato said:


> Just got in from a long and trying day to find some disapponiting posts.
> 
> Charis, I am disappointed because we were corresponding this morning, concerning another thread. You knew my schedule for the day, that I would not be around until later, so I don't see why any concerns could not have waited a bit and initially tried to be dealt with through PM, instead as perhaps turning up the heat and causing controversy, where doing this really may not have been necessary. This little guy was in no immediate danger of having any procedures performed on him.
> 
> ...





May need? Come on.This bird was injured almost a week ago. He should have been to a vet at that time.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Jay3, can you be certain that in the condition she was in she would have survived anesthesia or not have been seized?

This is what I was talking about, this should all be done through PM. If anybody has questions or concerns please PM me.


Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

If a concensus of review among those members who have germain experience, finds that only a few Sutures are needed to resolve the open aspect of the severed Leg ( after some final light debridement of course, ) then one of two options would seem to present themselves -


1) That, if kennebirdie is comfortable and confident to do it, and wishes to do it, and or has financial concerns which preclude a Vet being appealed to for it, and if she a little sewing Knowledge for making different kinds of stitches and minding their tension, then, I see no reason why she could not do it.


Or...

2) If reasons recommend an appeal being made to an Avian or other Vet or good hearted people GP MD Surgeon or other, or other able and experienced practioner, then the experienced and or licences Practioner could do the three or four small sutures...for whatever recompense is agreed on, which might be free, or it might be three or four hundred dollars, or four or five hundred dollars, and a dead Bird from them insisting on and reliably mis-managing Global Anaesthetic, etc.


These are things to be discussed...and there has been no cause in any way for anyone to be alarmed.


If a concensus seems to recommend, in assaying the details of the Leg, that the Bone will need to be shortened, in order to either alleviate dead Bone or possibly infected Bone issues, or, to allow what available supple Skin there is further up, to be comfortable brought down and around the end for a closure to be acheived, then I would not want for kennebirdie to attempt it, and I would positively prefer an appeal to be made to an experienced practitioner Avian Vet or MD or other of similar ability, for them to do the procedure...and, I would prefer they were both competent and friendly and not playing heavy handed Bill Padding games.

The better informed and critically observing of the details germain to the Leg and it's resolution kennebirdie can be, the better quality of conversation or interview she can have with a prospective Vet or other Practioner for any procedures which are to be done.



I have never suggested to kennebirdie that she should be considering to shorten the Bone, should it need it.

I have never suggested to her that she consider to do a possible, hypothetical couple of stitches, if she is not confident and comfortable to do so.


But, for her ( and her family's financial and other ) sake, and the Bird's sake, I had wished to sound her feelings and skills, were it to turn out that only a couple small Sutures are all which will be needed to close the open end of the Leg, and if kennebirdie were confident and comfortable to do them, then I was allowing that to be an option.


There have been many cases here on Pigeontalk where forum-helpers other than myself, had discussed a care giver doing a few basic sutures, and, many lay care givers have done a few simple sutures or stitches with perfect results and perfect resolution.


We are discussing and reviewing details of the Leg condition...and no decisions have been made, and, none are being rushed.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Kennabirdie.......This is your thread. The bird is in your custody and control.

You rescued this bird, have been caring for him and have kept him alive. You are a special person, as most people would have walked away from this precious little bird.

I have made it quite clear how I feel about this situation. The ultimate decision on how to proceed now is yours and yours alone.

I trust you will do what you believe in your heart is best for the bird.

Bless you both.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Just got in from a long and trying day to find some disapponiting posts.
> 
> *Charis, I am disappointed because we were corresponding this morning, concerning another thread. You knew my schedule for the day, that I would not be around until later, so I don't see why any concerns could not have waited a bit and initially tried to be dealt with through PM, instead as perhaps turning up the heat and causing controversy, where doing this really may not have been necessary. This little guy was in no immediate danger of having any procedures performed on him.*
> I do truly understand the concerns, I just think a different approach could have been initiated. I myself have PMed a number of members when I have had thoughts, concerns, or caught an error they may have inadvertently made with advice, as not to take a thread off topic, this is a common courtesy that I am suggesting should be extended to all members before escalating things in public when there is no imminent danger.
> ...


Karyn... This thread has not a thing to do with your PM to me asking for help finding a resource for another bird.
This bird should have been referred to a vet on May 29th. The bird needs to be accessed by a veterinarian and needs pain management. This bird needed pain management 6 days ago.
This is not a situation for private messages. It not like Albuquerque is the outback with no qualified veterinarian around.
I'm disappointed too.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

lwerden said:


> Phil.....If it was not your intent to have this person do this procedure to the bird herself. Can you please explain why in the last sentence of your post #136 you asked her:
> 
> "Do you have any Seamstress experience? Good with Sewing?"
> 
> ...



Easy for you to say Louise.


But in reality, a competent Vet is actually very very hard to find.


The less you know about the subjects and procedures, the less you know about what competency is, the easier it is for you ( figurative 'you', plural '
you', ) to be satisfied, since you have no basis for evaluating the Vet, nor what they do, nor how they do it.




Yes, I would have brought the Bird to go see Dr. Hauck.


It took me about 19 years to find him.


Any of the other Vets around here, would have charged four or five hundred dollars, insisted I leave the Bird, and, they would have killed the Bird with anaesthesia.

I had 'ZERO' survival rate for any of even the least invasive and simplest procedures, even when all that was needed was a few sutures of a little incidental skin tear of a robust vital Healthy Pigeon, when consenting to leave the Bird, and for the Vet using a Global Anaesthetic, which most will insist to do for their convenience and not for any 'pain' related matter for the Bird themself.

Anaesthesia for Sutures is for the Vet's convenience and for defence in board protocols which are pre-emptive policies for lawsuits, etc...Louise, and is not for the Bird's "pain".


May kennebirdie find a 'good' Practical Avian or other Vet on short notice?


Maybe...but, I doubt it, nor has she any practice to make an election informedly.


So far, virtually no one in appealing to Pigeontalk, ever has...most every instance we can get enough info about, we find a Vet who really screwed things up for the Bird, kills the Bird, and so on, and, charged a lot of dough to do it...and or the person has no experience to evaluate any of what the Vet says or does, nor has any basis for asking salient questions of the Vet...etc.

Kind of a bad situation, usually.


None the less, I often DO in fact suggest people try and find a Pigeon Friendly Avian Vet in their area...all the time, and usually they do not, can not, or can not afford the expense or other issues attendent to it.


I imagined, that if kennebirdie knew of any good Vets in her area, she would have said so.


Chances are, any of the first ten or twelve or fourteen Vets kennebirdie would find or try, would have long since killed this Bird by their mismanagement, while still charging quite a few hundred dollars, plus hundreds a day for post op housing, and who knows what else.


Not long ago, someone local here brought me a PPMV Pigeon, whom their Vet had been charging tem $300.00 a day to take care of, the Vet having insisted the Bird be left with them.

This is a typical condition one finds with many Vets.


That or euthenasia, or bungling a procedure, or missing vital cues and symptoms, etc.


$300.00 a day to house a PPMV Pigeon?


I have five right now...imagine the income I could have!!!


Anyway...


I think I have covered all concerns or controversy.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Charis said:


> Karyn... This thread has not a thing to do with your PM to me asking for help finding a resource for another bird.


You are just plain wrong on this and you know exactly why I stated what I stated about the other thread, to show there was no resonable reason why you could not have diplomatically tried to handle this by PM. To bring to light the fact we were in contact hours before your post. 

You're the one that wanted to take this public, so give me a public answer. I don't think that any reasonable person reading what has transprired since your first post today would not ask themsevles, why did she not try and handle this off board. Please give me a dirrect answer to this, why did you not try PM first, if you just didn't want to start a beef, which you seem to have done quite well? 

Karyn


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Dobato,

I am not going to speak on Charis' behalf as she is more than capable of doing that on her own and I'm sure she will do so.

Let me make it clear, I was the one who brought this matter up. I contacted Charis thismorning and brought the matter to her attention. I had full intentions of posting exactly as I did first thing thismorning and let my intentions be known to Charis. I had already flagged the posts I was concerned with to the moderators/administrators. 

This entire matter is not something that should be handled off board. It is not about anyone "starting a beef". It is about what is morally and ethically appropriate for the welfare of the birds and for advice/discussion on this forum.

It is for that reason alone that this matter should be discussed on board. The very fact that so many other members have chimed in here in agreement with my concerns is true testment as to the questionability of what you and Phil were proponing to.

This is not a matter that should have been delt with off board to protect the image of any person/s. If you feel personally offended or feel that this has tainted your image in any way......so be it. I make no apologies for that.

When members here assert advice and procedures well beyond their own professional knowledge and qualifications they need to be called out about it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Karyn...again...this has not a thing to do with the other thread. I was not aware of this thread until I was called, which was well after I responded to your PM and just before I was leaving my home. Had I noticed this thread sooner, I would have had the same reaction and given the same responce. 

In all good conscience, I did not feel I could remain silent and by doing so lead others, that may read this thread now or in the future, to believe that home treatment for a bird in such condition is a good idea or to be condoned.

Actually Karyn... I don't even know you how could you possible think I owe you anything? My purpose here, is to advocate for pigeons. I owe them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Dobato, This whole thing has been handled publicly, why should he opinions of others who do not agree with you, be handled privately through PMs? There seem to be many in agreement. The end.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

lwerden said:


> Kennabirdie.......This is your thread. The bird is in your custody and control.


Precisely - so if it is deemed that your pal may need to undergo more extensive treatment than what a lay-person can provide - *that* requires the services of a vet (who would be the ONLY one to determine whether anesthesia or sedation would be required - because certainly one of the two _would be _should the leg require a procedure). For some here to make implcations such as "you may take it to a vet that doesn't know their stuff & inadvertently kills the bird" or "who says the bird won't die under anesthesia ?" is incredibly specious and quite honestly - frighteningly misleading (as misleading as it is to suggest that painkillers\anti-inflammatories aren't necessary !). _ Suturing and manipulating the musculo-skeletal system_ should never be in the hands of a non-pro. My guess is 95% of the members here would agree w\that. _Now regarding PM's _- w\due respect, the fact is that _someone posted suggesting a surgical sort of procedure be done at home - sans veterinary supervision. _ This sort of thing should NOT occur here - _so if some people started reacting publicly regarding that - then well they should have_ and darn better for the Forum (& Kennabirdie's pal) that they did. Because if not done publicly - one might get the mistaken idea that the members of this Forum condone amateur\unsupervised veterinary procedures - which they certainly do not. Now for the sake of the patient & caregiver- let's refocus here.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Charis said:


> Actually Karyn... I don't even know you how could you possible think I owe you anything?


Actually, I didn't say I think you "owed" me anything, I asked for an explanation, which you now have given, thank you. As stated, I am of the opinion that this matter was handled entirely wrong, so you have your opinion on this, I guess I have mine and others can judge on their own what their's is.

Lwerden, I don't know you and please don't assume you know me. I have been PMed by another member to remove a reference you made about Dobato in a quote I referenced by you, you should do the same, as you are so off base with this it's laughable.

Please get your facts straight, I already made reference to my post #104 in this thread in my first post here today, so I do need you to apologize for stating



> of what you and Phil were proponing to.


What I was proposing was to get this bird to a vet, if she needed surgical help. Period.

And it is about starting a beef, has kennebirdie posted since this was handled the way it was?



> Dobato, This whole thing has been handled publicly, why should he opinions of others who do not agree with you, be handled privately through PMs? There seem to be many in agreement. The end.


Jaye3, I agree, the opinions of others should not necessarily coincide with mine, but I do have a big problem with people making assumptions at my expense. I assert this matter should have been started by PM to see if there were facts and information that might be germane not present. This part, were there more facts, or not, could have easily appeared in the thread if they existed, or not, and things, in my opinion could have escalated from their if people were still uneasy.

You know what bugs me, you are all bright people and I think you know this whole situation could have been handled in a much better way. I am also here to advocate for these wonderful birds, not to butt heads. Look, I'm done with this, if any of you want the last word be my guest.

Karyn


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

kennabirdie...I want to remind you about this vet. If I understood correctly, she has a one footed bird herself. 
I know you have done your best, in this situation . I know you really care about this pigeon.

Duffin, Kay, Dvm - Town & Country Animal Hospital 

(505) 897-8200

8414 4th St NW 
Albuquerque, NM 87114 35.1771 -106.6296


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

"Elvis has left the Building"


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

*I Think We Are Done Here ..*

Kennabirdie .. bless you for taking this bird in and for undertaking the care of it. You have done a fine job of that, and I hope there will be a happy outcome for you and the bird.

Sadly, this thread has gotten into a quote war kind of thing, and it's not helping you or the bird.

If you can find a vet that is competent to help you care for this bird, then I think that is the path to follow. Charis has given you a reference. If that is not possible for you, then please post back, and we'll take it from there.

For everyone who is jumping up and down here in this thread today, where the heck were you for the rest of the time? The people who have been helping Kennabirdie since day 1 are Karyn and Phil. Everybody else here is a latecomer and stirring the pot to no good end in my opinion.

Personally, I HATE taking things to PM because nobody knows who said what to who .. granted .. if you want to argue about politics, religion, or such .. then take it private. When it comes to the care of a needy bird, then I haven't got much use for PM's .. that's just my opinion.

I don't often pull rank, but I'm done with the shots you are all taking at one another here. Get this thread back on track, please.

And, if any of you respect Pidgey as much as I do, you might read what he had to say about this bird.

Terry


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Elvis has not left the building...........He has just gone underground


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi kennabirdie,

How is your little star patient doing this morning?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi kennabirdie,
> 
> How is your little star patient doing this morning?


Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever know since this thread blew up. It's probably gone PM.
I've been following this thread too and the 1st I read about leg surgery and pain management was yesterday - and I DO agree with Pidgy.
But in all fairness, I don't recall Dobato ever advising "at home" surgery on the leg. So I guess I don't understand why SHE is being attacked.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Msfreebird said:


> Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever know since this thread blew up. It's probably gone PM.
> I've been following this thread too and the 1st I read about leg surgery and pain management was yesterday - and I DO agree with Pidgy.
> But in all fairness, I don't recall Dobato ever advising "at home" surgery on the leg. So I guess I don't understand why SHE is being attacked.



She was not attacked Waynette.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

TAWhatley said:


> Kennabirdie .. bless you for taking this bird in and for undertaking the care of it. You have done a fine job of that, and I hope there will be a happy outcome for you and the bird.
> 
> Sadly, this thread has gotten into a quote war kind of thing, and it's not helping you or the bird.
> 
> ...



Not to argue with you Terry. Just to answer your question. Some didn't see this thread until then, and others were letting it be handled by Dobato and Phil, until the subject of Kennebirdie cutting through bone and stitching up the leg was mentioned, at which point alarms went off. I have no idea what transpired through PMs between them, but if you go back and read posts # 141 and #142, it makes it pretty clear what they were talking about. At which time I think others needed to say something. Don't think anyone is trying to stir the pot so to speak, just stop something that shouldn't be happening without a vet.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

*How is bird?*

Does anybody happen to know how this bird is doing? I used to have a bird which was featherless from head to "lack of" tail, and had pink eyes just like this one, so I have special interest in this bird. Mine only had a broken wing, nothing near the injuries this bird has, but I am really curious as to his/her updated condition. Thanks, Joni


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> ** Kennabirdie .. bless you for taking this bird in and for undertaking the care of it. You have done a fine job of that, and I hope there will be a happy outcome for you and the bird.*
> 
> *** For everyone who is jumping up and down here in this thread today, where the heck were you for the rest of the time? *
> 
> ...


* I agree. 

** As a moderator, my apologies, Terry, for not follwing this thread closer. Chuck is, and has been, very ill. Therefore most of my time has been spent traveling to and from the hospital, treatments, various appointments, general home care for him and trying to rest inbetween all that. 
As it is, it has taken me over an hour just to get this post written. 

This thread was flagged due to concerns of questionable advise/suggestions given. I did briefly respond.
I have taken some time now to try and review this entire thread.

You are exactly correct in that Karyn and Phil have been involved with this thread since day 1. Neither are new to PT. So I find it interesting that neither suggested kennabirdie attempt to find a local vet or even a rehabber nearby. Given the severity of the injury, that option should have been presented. 

*** Other than what Dobato was posting about the pm's confused, which I have no idea what that was all about and it isn't any of my concern anyway, I don't see where anyone was stirring the pot.

Being concerned about suggesting, advising, etc., that a member attempt DIY surgeries (cutting on a birds bone is considered surgery, IMO) is completely justified of addressing. 

**** I agree 100%. When a situation has been brought to the forum for public discussion, then the discussion should continue on the forum.

Kennabirdie,
My apologies to you as well for not following this thread more closely.

Just a little explanation about neosporin. 
When applying this on a birds feathers it's best to use the 'cream' form, of which neosporin does have. 
Ointments are fat soluable and make the feathers greasy and is difficult to wash off. 

I realize the ointment vs cream explanation are after the fact, but perhaps they will help in the future, if need be.

Many thanks for all you have done to help this little one.
My best wishes to you and your sweet rescue.

Cindy


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Charis said:


> She was not attacked Waynette.


Maybe not by you personally, but it seems that she is the one put on the griddle here, whether it be by her response to defend her position or others opinions.
There was mention recently (and I'm not going to re-read this whole thing AGAIN!) that she should have taken this bird to a vet on May 29th. May 29th was a Saturday - on Memorial Day weekend. Kennabirdie said she could not get to her vet until Tuesday. 
You were the 1st person to respond to this thread back on the 29th, then dobato and Pdpbison gave advise on how to stabilize this poor bird. Can't tell you why it didn't go to the vet on Tuesday but nobody (including me) jumped in and said anything on Tuesday, or Wednesday or Thursday.
It was Pdpbison that wrote about "loose enough skin to pull down over the bone" yesterday  And YES, I agree this is something that a vet should do if necessary.
*But what I don't see is where Dobato was part of this surgery discussion on the leg, but yet she feels the need to defend herself. That's what I'm trying to say. When she responded in her defense, some of the replies to her were "accusing".*
Again, the rest of us can only go by what we read in the forum - we have NO idea what is being said in PM's.
We ALL have been following this thread and felt that kennabirdie was in good hands until Pdpbison mentioned cutting and suturing.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I feel bad for Dobato, and I don't see where she needed to defend herself.
And I hope this bird is OK and hear what's going on with it.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Waynette.....

I would have said, what I said, had it been *you or any other member *giving the advise that was given. 

Dobato got defensive...no one asked her to defend herself...she made that choice.


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

I think we should be concerned about the _bird_ rather than petty arguments and disputes among us. Nothing has been said about the bird and right now, its condition is not known. Perhaps Kennabirdie has not responded because of what has happened to this thread. The issue of DIY surgery, which was not, in my opinion, being suggested or pushed at all, could have been handled in a much more graceful manner. Instead, this has turned into blatant scrapping, and is very much a nonissue. I respect Phil and Dobato a lot. I respect a lot of members on this site. Let's not forget about the actual issue: the welfare of this pigeon.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Vasp said:


> I think we should be concerned about the _bird_ rather than petty arguments and disputes among us. Nothing has been said about the bird and right now, its condition is not known. Perhaps Kennabirdie has not responded because of what has happened to this thread. * The issue of DIY surgery, which was not, in my opinion, being suggested or pushed at all, *could have been handled in a much more graceful manner. Instead, this has turned into blatant scrapping, and is very much a nonissue. I respect Phil and Dobato a lot. I respect a lot of members on this site. * Let's not forget about the actual issue: the welfare of this pigeon.*




Then maybe you could go back and read posts #141 and #142. It is pretty obvious that Kennebirdie doing the surgery was implied. And if that is not what was meant, then Phil could have told her that, but in his reply to her, he said that it would have to be gone over and rehearsed first. Now how else can one take that? You are right in that the welfare of this pigeon is what matters, and that is why people are concerned about people who are not qualified, talking about doing surgery on a bird.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Vasp said:


> *The issue of DIY surgery, which was not, in my opinion, being suggested or pushed
> 
> *


*
The following statement certainly implies that something was mentioned by someone (and it doesn't matter who), about cutting on the bird's bone and then stitching it up. 

Whether this was mentioned via, phone, pm, email or post, that has since been edited, I have no idea. But the bottom line is, according to the following it was mentioned. 

And kennabirdie was totally FREAKED about the suggestion. 
It was totally justified for one of our 'concerned' members to address it rather than just let it go.



kennabirdie said:



The idea of cutting her bone and stitching her up totally FREAKS me out.

Click to expand...

*


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

But obviously, by now, it has been established that it's not going to happen! It was suggested, perhaps, but the issue has been taken care of.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Vasp said:


> But obviously, by now, it has been established that it's not going to happen! *It was suggested, perhaps, but the issue has been taken care of.*




Do you have some inside info you would care to share with us, Hillary?


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## Vasp (Jul 25, 2006)

No, no... I just mean that the original poster is obviously not comfortable with anything of the sort, and there has been a loud outcry against it... It is obviously not going to happen, the bird is obviously not going to be operated on by an amateur. I do think the bird should have been brought to a pigeon-friendly vet because that is a major injury; I'm not saying it shouldn't have been. Ah, perhaps I shouldn't have said anything at all.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

All of you

Go back and re-read Terry's post. Particularly:



> I don't often pull rank, but I'm done with the shots you are all taking at one another here. Get this thread back on track, please.


If anyone wants to post to help the rescuer, fine. If anyone wants to continue arguing - think again, and don't be surprised if it gets deleted.

Respect what our chief admin said, OK?

John


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

The only thing that has been established at this point is that the custodian of the bird(kennabirdie) had been made aware of the fact by GENERAL CONSENSUS, that attempting to be blindly led into doing any DIY surgery is totally inappropriate. Hopefully he/she has reconsidered any and all suggestions of doing so and is seeking out professional veterinary assistance.

Kennabirdie has not posted anything to the contrary and therefore no one can be certain what is going on via PM's in the underground of this thread. 

With all due respect to all members/moderators/administrators of this forum, it is morally and ethically irresponsible and reprehensible, regardless of their own personal accquired experience, to give advice or make suggestions to which they are not legally licensed to do so. Advising someone with supportive care is one thing, but suggesting do it yourself surgical procedures whether it be by post, email or PM is a whole different matter and should not be tolerated in this forum.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

kennabirdie has logged on here today.... I would say she is way to scared to come back on publicly now... what a shame. wonder how her birdie is doing? if anyone knows please tell.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I can tell you this.


What various of you have done to this Thread, and done to so many Threads in the past, with this method of high-jacking and 'mobbing' under transparent pretext of 'caring', and then fomenting in destructive and smearing gossip and hear-say as you escalate and bait and interpolate...

This has driven away and or insulted just about anyone who had anything going for themselves, or anything good to offer...and it has also given the forum a very very 'bad" reputation among people who are Vets, Avian Vets, or other 'heavy' Credentialed practioners whom I had tried talking into joining, who will never come here now, and never join for seeing how things really are here.

Some had seen this for themselves long ago, and would never join, as well as for seeing it in misfortunate occasions such as this one, where, I guess it was just fate that I had been all enthusiastic in encouraging them just as the various 'you' were all so busiy 'PM'-ing achother to organise the 'mobbing'.


You have really blown it, and been blowing it for years now with these viscious 'mobbing' methods of how YOU can then INSIST that YOUR 'opinion' will dominate at any cost, and, with no chance of discussion being permitted.


In the mess you all make of things, as you did once again, here with this Thread, how could any discussion proceed to address your every little gambit?

You overwhelm by 'mobbing', knowing it will all be instantly then, controlled by you, and, controlled and dominated by your methods of destroying dialogue, and replacing it with 'gossip', baiting, and interpolation.


You are so insulting, why would anyone with any self respect then even condescend to bother trying to clear things up? Bother trying to communicate with you?


You win...


Happy now?


You have your 'Turf' wars...a little 'gang' who will insist to own their territory and at any cost, repulse others unless those others are less than you...and anyone with any cogency or Worldly Wisdom, can see the game you are playing, and the abuse of pretexts you insist on to justify it.



Once again, here is the Poem of Bukowski to sum things up -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gifEn61dZBc


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Phil,
Please note below.



John_D said:


> *All of you*
> 
> *Go back and re-read Terry's post. Particularly:*
> 
> ...


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Given this most recent post that clearly isn't on track, I'm going to close this thread and discuss it with the other moderators to see if it's worthy of reopening.


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