# Separation...is it ok?



## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Since Misty is so much stronger and bigger than Mel right now, she's basically walking all over him. He's at another disadvantage because of the crop bra he is wearing, which is a bit awkward and makes it tougher for him to move around. Misty keeps knocking him over and he gets stuck on his back, trying to turn back over.

I decided to put Mel into his own little box, I'm wondering if this is alright? It'll just be short term, until Mel catches up a bit and doesn't have to wear his bra. I guess I'm wondering if separating them is detrimental. I don't want to put them back together and have them fighting and wondering if this might happen because I put them in separate boxes. They've been right next to each other since they hatched, but I'm worrying about Mel being rolled over onto his back alot.

Mel is very quiet and immediately went to sleep in his new box as he's not being bothered by Misty's movements. Misty is chirping up a storm, like she's looking for him. Maybe she's just hungry again, it could be anything I guess.

If you can tell me anything about separating them, I would appreciate that.

Thank you,
Izzy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Izzy, 

I'm sorry you're having some problems right now and seem very worried I would separate them for now. Just in the meantime like you said to ensure that Mel isn't getting trampled on by Misty. You want to keep him calmer and hopefully this crop problem will get remedied then you can put them back together. Can you send a friend out to the drug store to pick up the acidophilus today? I do hope things become a little less stressed for you over there. 



Brad


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Also, warmth is important for Mel right now as well. Do make sure that he's at a good temperature. When you get ready to feed him next, massage the lower crop some more to try to get the food moving. I'm trying to think of what else you can do.



Brad


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

I agree with Brad that they should be separated, but they will miss each other. I have heard that pigeon siblings that are reunited are delighted to see each other and I know that my rescue pigeon Gonzo meeds comapny so badly that he follows a collared dove wherever it goes.

Is there any way that you can place them so that they are separated but facing each other, like in cat carriers placed face to face?

Cynthia


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Brad, thanks for your reply! I do feel much better that Mel is alone and quiet. Especially right now, as I think he really needs his rest and doesn't need to be pushed over all the time.

What exactly is acidophilus? Is it something that is pretty common? I'm just wondering if it's something that is refrigerated, in a bottle, tablet, liquid, etc.

I don't mean to be stressing out so much, just worried about little Mel right now. I feel so responsible for him and his condition and wish I was better skilled to handle things as they pop up. I just don't want to be the reason he's not doing well, makes me feel terribly guilty.

Thanks again,
Izzy


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

That's a very good idea Cynthia! I'll have to take a look around here and see what I have. Right now, I've been using different sizes of sturdy cardboard boxes. They are next to each other, but can't see each other right now.

I do have one small pet taxi, I'm thinking maybe I can take it apart into two pieces again, the top and the bottom and use the little gate as one piece inbetween there, that just might work! I'm just thinking the holes in the gate are kind of large and Misty might be able to squeeze through there. I'll have to go and try that now, thanks for the tip, I'm sure Misty will feel better being able to see Mel. Mel doesn't really seem to care either way, lol.

Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You are doing a wonderful job Izzy so please don't feel that it is your fault if things go wrong! 

Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Acidophilus is probiotics. They are in the vitamin section of a drug store and come in capsules. You have to refridgerate the bottle after opening. You're doing the best you can so don't worry too much, well try not to. The bra will hopefully help and just keep massaging his crop to get the food moving out of there. Once it empties properly and after a few more days with the bra on, perhaps he'll be ok then. Can you tell if the food sitting in the bottom of his crop is staying the same amount?



Brad


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

I keep a thermometer right at their head level and keep it exactly on 80 degrees F. I have my red lamp hanging up now and just move the boxes either closer or farther away to keep the temp adjusted. It gets cooler in there at night, but during the day it's pretty stable at 80 and I can usually turn the red lamp off until dusk.

When I gave him some warm water, about an hour ago, I did massage his crop and I can see the bit of food that is in there move around. It's like when I massage one side of the bottom of his crop, the food moves over to the other side and vice versa. It's not hard at all, very liquidy. I then put the bra back on to where it holds that folded/sagging part of the crop up, so the food pushes upwards a bit.

Thanks for being there, I'll be fine and please don't worry about me, I tend to be somewhat overemotional at times.  

Izzy


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

> Can you tell if the food sitting in the bottom of his crop is staying the same amount?


Yes, the amount is the same as it was earlier yesterday morning. After I had him wear the bra all day, gave him warm water and massaged that area of the crop, last night it was less and the crop wasn't sagging nearly as much as before. I'm thinking the weight of that little bit of food was pulling his crop down.

Unfortunately, after feeding last night, I didn't put his bra back on and I should of. Because it happened all over again, same amount of food stuck there at the bottom of the crop again.

I'm hoping by doing the same thing I did yesterday BUT keeping the bra on this time, that he won't keep getting food stuck down there. That seems like common sense to me, but I'm not sure if it's as simple as that sounds.

Izzy


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Thanks Cynthia! I'm gonna blame my sensitivity and emotional state on pms or something. I'm such a mess, I don't know what's wrong with me! I keep breaking out into tears when I think about Mel and that's not how I usually am, I've never been one to cry much anyhow. I think maybe I'm just a bit tired and thinking about this too much right now.

My house is a total wreck, I need to do some housecleaning, but can't seem to pry myself away from this computer as I keep trying to read as much as I can about squabs. My dogs need attention, Lily just came over here with a toy and threw it at me. 

I'll get it together, just one of those days. 

Izzy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yes, I see what you're saying. Probiotics are extremely beneficial for all animals and hopefully this will also prevent any bad bacteria from taking hold in his crop. Well, you really are doing the best you can and we're all trying very hard to give you the best advice here. Your instincts are very good and that is very important. Let's keep positive that Mel will make a speedy recovery. 



Brad


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes Brad, I know you guys have been sooooo awesome! I'm sorry to be so very whiny and I think maybe I'm starting to really get on all of your nerves, lol!

Yes, I will think positive! I am doing all I can and I think I'm maybe obsessing a bit too much at the moment. I'm going to pull myself away from this puter for a bit and do some housecleaning, I know that will make me feel better and keep my mind off things.

Thank you,
Izzy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

You're NOT getting on our nerves!! LOL. I think that many of us are very concerned for you and these chicks. I am for one and I worry about them and how you're coping. It's a stressful thing to have to do for anyone. But I do agree, you've done all you can for now. Take your mind off of it for a bit. But please try to get the probiotics as soon as you can because he just might need a real booster of them to ward off infection. We're thinking of you and your chicks Izzy.




Brad


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Got a friend coming by shortly, we'll go out and get the acidophilus. 

When I get back with it, do I just add it to the warm water for Mel? Or do I need to make sure it's mixed with the Exact formula?

Thank you again Brad and mostly importantly, thank you very much for your concern.

Izzy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

You can add it to either the warm water or the formula. So whatever you've been doing. What have you been advised to do right now, just give water? When did he get food last? Cynthia, feel free to step in anytime here. LOL. Don't be afraid of using too much either, there is really no such thing as an overdose on them. I'd use a whole capsule in either the water or the formula. Sorry, within reason and depending on the size of the capsules. Just don't skimp on the probiotics is what i'm trying to say and just use your judgement. 


Brad


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

I was also thinking, once this problem gets corrected you might want to consider feeding mel smaller portions, more frequently. We're trying to get the crop to regain it's elasthicity. So smaller, but more feedings would probably be better for the short term. 


Brad


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Believe me, I would be in a far worse state than you are if I was hand raising two squabs! It was bad enough when I had to watch the parents do it!


Cynthia


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi again Brad and Cynthia,

Just finished Mel & Misty's feeding. Thanks for the advice about feeding Mel less Brad, great idea and that's what I did.

I fed Misty first, because she's doing great with the formula thickened up a bit. After she was done, I thinned it out even more for Mel, adding the probiotics that I just got from Walgreens. 

Mel's crop looked really good when I took the bra off for a sec just to see the bottom of his crop. Was barely any food in there at all, which made me VERY happy! I put the bra right back on before I fed him. I know now that his wearing that bra is definitely keeping his crop pushed up so the food can digest correctly. I'll probably need to feed him again in about 4 hours, but will keep checking his crop to see how it's doing. I didn't feed him as much as I usually do, that's what probably started the problem in the first place, my letting him eat so much he stretched out his crop. I don't know why Misty's didn't stretch, because I basically treat them identically, just one of those things I guess.

I'm wondering how long it normally takes for muscles of the crop to strengthen back up? Any idea? 3 days, a week? I'll be worried for awhile, even after his crop returns to normal, because last night it "looked" normal, until I fed him and then sagged again a few hours later.

LOL Cynthia, glad to know I'm not the only one who has gotten in a 'state' over these two babies, lol!

Izzy


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hey Izzy, 

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the bra will fix Mel's crop very soon. I'd leave it on for a few days anyways. I have no knowledge though specifically on lengths of times it should be worn for. Hopefully Cynthia or someone else has that information. I'm glad you got the probiotics as well. Please add them in lesser amounts to their formula for both chicks once a day from now on. Misty can also benefit from the added "good bacteria". I hope things get easier and less stressful for you soon. 



Brad


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Yes, Izzy, I hope Mel gets better soon.

And post more pictures of Mel and Misty in a few days too! They grow so quickly.


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi there Brad and Zig! Thank you very well for your well wishes, I'll be sure to pass them along to Mel. 

I'll go ahead and add the probiotics to Misty's formula too then, she's already sprouting up so quickly, it's quite amazing to see! Now I really understand the term, "growing before your eyes", cause that's exactly what she's doing. I'll be much happier when Mel starts to catch up. I've always been a sucker for the runt of the bunch and will do anything and everything I need to make sure he gets better very soon.

I'm not nearly stressing as bad right now, only thing is Mel is flipping over onto his back alot. The bra is awkward, with his crop pushed up forward, it kinda make him a bit top heavy. He's fine, until he jumps up on the side of the box and then, oops, he's on his back again. I just turned him over 4 times in the past half hour, I was starting to think he was doing it on purpose, lol!

The last time he flipped, he didn't even try to get back onto his feet, which worried me a bit. I've seen picts where they can sleep on their backs, but I read a post recently that it wasn't good for them to do that, so I'm doing my best to keep him on his feet.

I'm starting to wonder a bit about his left leg too. Cynthia had mentioned earlier it looked a bit splayed from the picture. I really starting paying attention to it and it does seem to kinda scoot out from under him, the right one stays under him pretty much all the time. The paper towels I have in his box is quilted and isn't slippery, but I think I will pay extra close attention to that the next few days. I'm just not positive it's splayed and hate to put another contraption on him, poor guy will look like a mummy! I know it's best to attend to something like a splayed leg asap, so it doesn't harden that way. I remember a site that showed you have to put a bandaid inbetween the legs to keep them straight, so if I feel like it's not holding him up right, I'll do that.

BTW, is that common for a squab to just have "one" splayed leg? I know I've seen it where both are like that, but any reason one leg would be like that and not the other?

Thanks,
Izzy


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## vgri (Sep 7, 2004)

Izzy, 
I have been reading your threads with much interest. I don't know about other people, but I enjoy reading your posts. I find myself walking around thinking of Misty and Mel as saw in the pics you posted, or imagined while reading your posts. I wish I had the ability that you have to advocate for my Spinster. You are doing so very well, but I know what you mean when you say that you should be prying yourself from the computer. It is hard to do, as this is a forum where we met so many caring people. So caring and so kind that it is... overwhelming! If you manage to break away from the computer, do so realizing that...your fans and Misty's and Mel's are not going to disappear while you take time away from the computer. We will all be here 
Take care, Violeta


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Violeta and thank you very much for your wonderful post! It really made me smile and made me feel good that I'm not traveling this journey with Mel & Misty alone.

I actually do have a couple of real 'live' friends, not on the net, I mean. They just don't understand why I'm doing this though. They tell me it's "just" a pigeon, I wouldn't lose any sleep over them, they are all over the city. That really saddens me when I hear that and I've heard it from most of the people I've talked too in my neighborhood. 

I tell them, that Mel & Misty are not "just" pigeons, they are living beings and deserve every chance at a healthy life, just as any other living being does. Just because they are not expensive parrots or something, doesn't make their lives any less important or meaningful. I tell them it's sad that they don't have any compassion to see them as living creatures and not "just" pigeons.

I also tell them, even if I did lose a bit of sleep here and there, I always catch up on it. I don't think I could ever sleep with a clear conscience if I totally abandoned them. There was a reason that Mel & Misty were brought to me and I think it's a gift for me to be the one to give them a chance for a long and healthy life. I certainly hope to succeed, but know it's not all in my control.

Waking up and saying good morning to Mel & Misty and hearing them start chirping is like music to my ears! Yeah, maybe they only want to me to feed them, but I know I'm needed and nothing feels better than that.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Izzy,

If you think Mel lis developing a splayed leg, we need to try to correct this right away. As you noted there are some good sites showing how to tape the legs. If you're up to that, I'd definitely go for it.

You might also want to find a different type of "container" for Mel until the leg problem is solved. Something that is larger at the top and narrower at the bottom and lined with a piece of old toweling or T-shirt is good. This "forces" the legs to stay in position under the baby and might also help with the flipping over problem.

I, too, have very much enjoyed your posts as well as those from all the members who have done such a great job to help you get a good start in life for Mel and Misty.

Terry


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

Izzy, I emailed you about better nest accomidations to help with the possbile splayed leg condition. Terry's advice is very good as well.
Also I remember reading about using a little sponge to correct a splayed leg on a parrot, I'll try to find that site for you and I think someone here at pigeons.com posted it once.

Once I find it I'll post..


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## maryco (Apr 1, 2002)

http://www.parrotparrot.com/splay/

Here it is and since Mel's condition isn't severe then this might be more comfortable for him... you can also type in "splayed leg" in the search here at pigeons.com and many good threads come up relating to the topic.

Hope that helps!


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Hello Terry and Mary and thank you for your posts! I'm about to post the newest picture I took of Mel and Misty, you can see clearly how Mel's left leg just kinda sticks out to the side. His right leg is just fine though, sits under him perfectly. That's a great idea about putting him in a smaller, confined type of area, I'll go look for something in my kitchen, I have all sorts of plastic containers, so I'm sure I'll find something that he will fit in comfortably.

When I had quails, I saw picts of what splayed/spraddle legs look like, the legs just stuck out on each side of the body and basically the chick would be resting on it's body. That's why I didn't think Mel really had a problem, I mean, he can move that leg and pushes off on it, it's not totally frozen there, stuck out at his side. But, after watching him, I can tell it's not like Misty's leg or even his other leg and it seems weaker and he doesn't hold it much under his body like he should be.

I'm definitely going to try do something about it when my friend gets here a little later. I tried putting a bandaid on it earlier, but he moves around so very much, it was impossible for me to do.

Here's the link that I knew about from my quails about these type of legs, if you want to check it out. It has great pictures, but I'm wondering since that is mostly for poultry type birds, if it'll still work as well as fixing it up per the parrots splayed leg page. Or does it even make a difference? spraddle legs 

I'll be sure to check out your links as soon as I post this, thank you so much again! I do want to tend to this asap, as I know he's growing and don't want this to be a permanent problem with his leg. 

Oh and Mary, I did find the site that explains how to use a makeup sponge to help splayed legs, I bookmarked it, so you don't have to go all over the place searching, lol!

Thank you so much again!
Izzy


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Izzy,

Karen is the one that knows about stretched crops and will probably be able to assess how long the bra should stay on. Splay legs in young chicks correct very quickly so I hope the same goes for stretched crops.

If Mel has a splay leg then you can probably correct it fairly quickly because it is so slight and she is so young.

It is wonderful that you are so observant of small changes in your babies and can spot trouble early!

Cynthia


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Oops, quick note! Mary, the link you posted is the one that I had found the other night and had bookmarked, lol!

Thank you again,
Izzy


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## Izzy (Sep 17, 2004)

Thank you Cynthia! I have to admit, I do notice things, sometimes a bit too much, lol! I'm the same with my dogs, I can feel a lump or sense a change of behavior pretty early on. It helped that I was able to do this quickly with Sheba, as she had a tumor that was cancerous in her throat. She seemed to be swallowing 'differently' to me, so I got her to the vet and kept pushing him to do all the tests we needed to do. We were able to get it removed and she was on chemo for several weeks and is now doing fantastic! She's 12 years old now and very healthy.

Sometimes it's not such a good thing, as Lily, my other dog, who is 5, is really a major cry baby about things, lol! I've taken her in for a stomach ache and little limp that turned out to really be nothing. She just has a lower tolerance to pain than Sheba does and is very vocal when she's not totally feeling well. Having a large bottle of Pepto in the house has helped when she overindulges in something nowadays.


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