# HELP!! Respiratory? Sneezing and unable to swallow



## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi all,
My heart is pounding as I'm typing this. I think there is something wrong with Krikky 

For the past few days, I (the human) has been ill - parched throat, fever, giddiness - and Krikky seems ok. But today, I am still unwell and there is a major difference in Krikky's behaviour.

She hasn't eaten her food or drank water at all today. I know because I change the bowls daily and they are untouched. She eats her usual peanut treats (about 3-4 this morning) and just sat on her eggs the whole day.

When I was changing the bowl, she rushed to the bowl, tried to peck a few seeds but had trouble swallowing - almost as if it was too painful or uncomfortable. Thinking it was a feather as she preens a lot, I offered her the bowl of water, with a small sip she retracted as if it was hurting her, and she didn't want to drink although I could see she was very thirsty!

She has been sneezing almost every night, and honestly so have I, and my brother in the next room.

Krikky has always eaten her food and drink her water, and always very cheery. But today she seems withdrawn. So I got into her cage and tried, very unsuccessfully, to wrap her in a cloth to check her throat. I couldn't pry it open, she struggled so much, but I saw it was dark and bluish???

Please can you advise;
1. How do I catch her and open her beak so I can see clearly? Please share with photos and instructions, I am a wimp when it comes to handling her. She's very feisty!

2. What medication can I buy for this sneezing and non-eating throat problem?

Oh by the way, Krikky has been treated with Metronizadolum about a year ago but if need be, I will medicate her again.

Going to the vet will be the last resort because;
1. If I go to the vet, I might be arrested for keeping a pigeon. It's a very strict country and I don't want the vet visit to be the reason Krikky gets confiscated from me. I don't care if I go to jail, I just don't want Krikky to be captured and disposed by the authorities if the vet reports me.

2. There is only one public avian vet, and I am doubtful he knows anything about pigeon.

3. I am very ill at the moment, flu, fever, clogged nose/throat and I havent been to the Dr myself. I fear that if I go to the vet, with my current condition, he might suspect the bird flu or whatnot and I just don't want Krikky to be accused of anything. This is a paranoid country with zero tolerance for pigeons.

I hope you can help. What do I need to do??? I am so worried!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so sorry your bird is feeling poorly. Is it possible she has a peanut or something else lodged in her throat? It may also be canker or a respiratory problem. For canker the metronidazole would be used and for respiratory you would need doxycycline. 

Terry


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear about Krikky. Seems like she could have a respiratory infection, I hope experts here will come to your help.
You need to wrap a towel around her several times, and tell yourself that no matter what happens, you are going to look down that throat. Wrapping around several times will make her immobile, and also give you better grip on her. You can hold her against your chest (or whichever position is most comfortable) and pry open the beak. I feel pigeons stop struggling if held with their belly up. Maybe what you will find down there can save her life. Since she is not weak yet, I think we have time on our side.
I just hope Krikky feels better soon. Also that you get the strength to look after her. I will pray for both of you.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Forgot to mention another thing. Sometimes pigeon's throat can seem whitish or bluish if your'e looking in bad light. So make sure to look into his beak in good daylight.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Well, it is either a blockage or illness.

I am sorry you are feeling ill. I was actually going to say you are acting a bit paranoid, but then I remembered you are in Singapore and not here or somewhere else.

Some thoughts:

1) Do you have a friend (healthy) who can bring Krikky to the avian vet for you ? Do you have any bands you can place on his leg, so as to indicate he is 'owned' by you, not a stray Feral ?

The vet is still the best bet from a medical point of view...we have no idea what we are dealing with here. But I understand your reasons for not doing that. If not, then you are left with some courses of actiion which are nothing but 'best-guess':

2) If it is a blockage due to inflammation, Metacam/Meloxicam might reduce any swelling and at least give Krikky some respite from feeling bad and having breathing difficulty.

3) As Kunju says, it _could_ just be canker...I mean, her symtoms are not incongruous with canker. So you culd start Metronidazole and see what that does.

In both of the above, I understand the problem that Krikky seems not to be able to ingest anything, so oral dosing meds might not get much down into the crop. In such an instance, a needle syringe shot would be a better delivery system.....but that gets us back to the vet issue ....so also becomes a risk in a sense.

4) In any instance, if your decision is to try to treat at home, you really have to towel him, take him out of his enclosure, and open that beak. I have seen phlegmatic canker birds where their beaks have almost been 'glued' shut by the phlegm...but the fact that you were able to open the beak and peer in for an instant would seem to suggest this is not the case , here.

That's all I can think of at the moment....I too am praying for you both.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

It could be trich or more infectious cattarh. Does it look like this?

http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/respiratorytract-infectiouscatarrh.php

I wouldn't give 3 -4 peanuts also. One a day for now and may be cut it down.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you all for responding. I truly appreciate it. Sorry for the late reply, I have been sleeping after taking my meds 

I wouldn't be paranoid about the vet if I was living elsewhere. But you know, it's where I am...

I'm going to try to pry open her beak one more time in morning light. Hopefully I can see what's in there. I have asked my mom and brother to help - as I need more hands.

I also noticed she has mucous... and when she tries to eat, the food get stuck to her beak and she tries to puff them out... is this also a sign of respiratory? I don't think it's canker but if I give her metronidazole, it won't cause problems right?

No more peanuts for Krikky for the next 6 months! It's like pampering your child with candies and now she's got diabetes. I feel awful!

One more question;
Can I give these meds at the same time - and what dosage should I use? In what form can I buy them and most importantly from where?

1) Metacam
2) Doxycycline
3) Metronidazole

Thanks Dima for the link - I hope I won't hurt Krikky by prying her mouth open like that.

Again, many, many thanks for your help!!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

I know it's hard to open to beak of some pigeons, but i squeeze at the base with thumb and index of left hand and open with thumb and index of right hand..More people it wouldn't help. Only the second person to keep a flashlight so you can see better.

It could be also Candida, for that Nystatin would do great. It's a fungus infection/ yeastlike in digestive tract. Peanuts could case that IMO.

Metronidazole 40 mg once a day
Doxyciline..i think 0.2 cc ( someone can confirm)
Personally, I wouldn't give Metacam...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't do the metacam either. You need to look down the throat with a small flashlight in order to really see well. Canker can cause a blockage where the feed gets stuck and won't go down, and it also cause mucous.What do her poops look like? You can give the Metronidazole in the evening, and the doxy in the evening. I would probably try the Metro first for a few days and see if it helps. I would give a double dose to start, which would be 100 mg, then 50 mg daily for another 7 to 10 days, and see how it goes. May need a bit longer treatment. The Doxy comes in tablet form, and gives instructions as to amount to give.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Has she had a break from the eggs since she first ever started laying, I am guessing here but maybe sitting all the time could have made her unfit, I know if humans sit, eat and drink they can develop breathing difficulties.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

If it IS canker then Metacam will do no good. If you conclude it is NOT canker, I strongly suggest you give the Metacam (.05cc) and the Doxy, maybe an hour apart. If the throat/esophagus/respiratory inflammation is from something other than canker, Metacam will likely reduce the inflammation.

If there is no improvement in the first 12 hours, discontinue the Metacam. ASgain, this is only if you determine it not to be canker.

The only thing which Metacam can exacerbate is a renal illness. This does not seem to be a renal illness. It won't exacerbate a virus or fungal or bacterial infection. So the chances of it hurting anything, IMHO, are quite slim.

Still sounds to me like canker, that would be my first guess...especially the new appearance of phlegm. 

This is tricky because some of the med needs to get down a passage which is clearly _not_ allowing much to go down. Best of luck....

Keep us posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Check to be sure that there is no food caught down the throat also.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi all,
Really, I LOVE YOU GUYS SOOOOO MUCH!!!

Thank you for everything! Last night, with my raging fever and clogged nose/throat, I decided to sleep in the living room and left Krikky in my room. The next morning, I COMPLETELY recovered!! No mucous (for me), no fever and I'm energised! (I did eat meds last night)

I had to go for an interview today (thus being MIA from Pigeon biz) and leave Krikky for 2 hours. I was VERY worried because when I left at 2pm, I discovered mucous and her jaw was swollen. Her lower beak extended and it looked like she was having lumps!

Without said, I was almost crying during the interview and told the guy I had to send my bird to the vet (so I'm not sure if I got the job or not) This is like deja-vu of the time when I saved the now-deceased baby mynah... also smack during an interview!

So anyway, I rushed home like crazy, called every vet in Singapore - to test the waters - "avian vet?" "pigeon-friendly?" "do you have metro" "doxy and metacam?" "yes ok i want to make an appointment immediately"

So I did. Seeing Krik-Krik in that state, face all bloated up, I knew I couldn't self-medicate her. I bit the bullet, rushed to buy a new pet carrier, rushed back home, lured Krikky into the bag (with eggs), and then rushed to the vet.

I am glad I did. She was FANTASTIC!! I was soooo defensive at first, fearing she might not know anything about pigeons but it turned out that there were a few great samaritans who took feral pigeons to her before.

So she checked Krikky thoroughly. The way she handled my precious bird was so impressive! Firm but gentle! Krikky was so obedient, the little doll! She hopped back into the carrier and sat like a very good girl while the doctor addressed us (me and bro).

It turns out - SHE HAS CANKER! A massive one, that is causing the swelling - and this is the treatment. You guys rock, it's exactly as you have suggested!

1. Metronidazole suspension - 30 ml - 0.15ml every 12 hours - just a drop into her beak and let her swallow naturally. For 10 days.

2. Meloxicam - 5ml - 0.08ml once a day - same procedure as above

3. Krikky is having problems eating so I have to feed her like a baby - Kaytee Exact liquid food - and if possible, add the meds into that.

4. Krikky is underweight!! She weighs only 245g - so more carbohydrates need to be introduced into her diet.

5. The sneezing is normal. She checked her lungs and and nostrils and concluded there is absolutely nothing wrong with her respiratory system. Because both my brother and I sneeze a lot too, it's probably my room!

So that's it. The doctor was awesome! She never mentioned about the law or anything. She was very caring and knowledgeable. I should have more pride in my countrymen next time!! The clinic was packed but no one threatened to report me or anything, all they did was gushed how beautiful Krikky is - like a mini celebrity!

So now my racing heart has subsided into relief. The hard part, giving the meds. Thank goodness I'm unemployed at the moment and have all the time in the world.

I will not hesitate to go to Dr Gloria Lee from now onwards. For future feral rescue, as well as Krikky. I am so impressed and thankful I might send her a bouquet of flowers!!

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH! I swear I love you guys more than my real life friends, lol. 

Sidenote: My dad who sponsored the cage carrier and vet (S$200) had just revealed (as I'm typing this) that he felt guilty because two days ago, Krikky drank drain water and he couldn't stop her in time. He kept that info from me because as you know, I'm the Queen of Paranoia, but he is glad she is ok. He still believed it was his fault and the canker was from the drain water. Of course it's not. Bless him!

Bless all of you too for your concern and help in my time of trouble. HUGS!!!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

omg that was an epic post. Sorry I'm just hyper.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

A HUGE thank you to Janet too... she was the first person I pm-ed and she is so very helpful. LOVE YOU JANET!!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Very glad to hear that Krikky is on the mend. You too! I am also happy that you found a very understanding, and knowledgeable, bird vet. Maybe you should find out if she would mind having her name added to PT's list of bird friendly vets. We are always looking for good ones. Unless she doesn't want the attention because of the law. 

Good luck getting you and Krikky better. Please keep us posted. And I agree, it is amazing how knowledgeable our own people are about caring for our feathered friends. Kudos gang, nicely done!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Almond! I don't think she minds, so here is the info:

Dr Gloria Lee
AMK Veterinary Surgery Pte Ltd
5 Mandai Road
Singapore 779391
Tel: 6451 5242 Fax: 6451 4001

I have another problem. I cannot contain Krikky. I am such a chicken. She struggles so much I can't force feed her (by syringe or by hand) and I'm finding problems trying to give her medication.

Please can someone show me a video how to towel-wrap a pigeon. She struggles so much, and because I am so emotionally involved I can't bring myself to hold her down. And my hands are too small!!! She is bigger than my palm.

I'm stressed. Krikky's stressed. Nothing gets done.

She hasn't eaten for two days, I'm so worried. I will get defroested peas tomorrow and try that. How long does a pigeon deteoriate without food? She has free access to seed and water but won't touch them.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Excellent. So how is Krikky now ?

So glad you found a good vet.

Did the vet happen to give any intravenous meds while you were there ?


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Best of luck to both of you.
You must feel relief now with professional help you got.
Make sure Kirkky is well hydrated before you give Meloxicam, though i do not see why if it's canker it was prescribed,if massive swelling is from canker. But, i think, it may help with inflammation if swelling is putting pressure on some glands or something adjacent.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

The vet didn't give her anything. She said I should learn to handle Krikky and be firm. I can't and honestly Krikky is really pampered and struggles a lot. She wins.

I've given up for tonight, and the poor bird is sleepy and stressed, after the whole journey.

My brother works night shift tonight and when he returns tomorrow morning, he will hold Krikky down (cos his hands are bigger and he's not emotionally involved like I am) and I will try to dispense the first dose then.

She hasn't eaten for two days so I really worry about how she's going to handle the meds. If she still hasn't eaten, can I still give her the second dosage 12 hours later?

I'm back to being paranoid


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

OMG,!.. please give the medication when it says and follow the directions. if you can't do it then board her at the vet and pay them to do that as it is very important.. canker can cause death.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> The vet didn't give her anything. She said I should learn to handle Krikky and be firm. I can't and honestly Krikky is really pampered and struggles a lot. She wins.
> 
> I've given up for tonight, and the poor bird is sleepy and stressed, after the whole journey.
> 
> ...


I though when you posted the following is what the vet prescribed:
*1. Metronidazole suspension - 30 ml - 0.15ml every 12 hours - just a drop into her beak and let her swallow naturally. For 10 days.

2. Meloxicam - 5ml - 0.08ml once a day - same procedure as above*

It seems you have liquid meds. Via syringe criss cross from left side into the right side of the throat. Open the beak by pressing , even a bit harder it that's the case, at the bottom, where the cere is.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Spirit wings is right. If you had kids that would die without their medication, would you learn how to give them a shot if you had to?
How big are you? How big is the bird? I mean really! 
Yes, it takes practice in handling and giving meds, but that is something you need to do when you own a bird. How will you learn if you never do it? Why has the bird not eaten in 3 days? Put a towel on your lap. You hold the bird on your lap and against your body. Now come from behind his head with one hand, and clasp the beak. Use both hands to open the beak. Now get your fingers from the hand that came from behind to clasp the beak, and wedge the beak open so that he can't shut it. Feed him with the other hand. Popping defrosted peas which have been warmed under running water is easy. Put in a pea and push it to the back of the throat and over the back of the tongue. Let him close his beak and swallow. If he spits it out, then you didn't put it back far enough. Sometimes it is easier to have someone else hold the bird while you do this, but it really is something you need to learn how to do. His life will depend on whether or not you can learn how to do this. 
I don't get him to open his beak by pressing. I just open it up. Take the top of the beak with one hand and the bottom with the other and pry it open gently. It isn't difficult. Maybe tablets would have been easier for you to give then liquid. But you need to learn to do this. He can't wait much longer. The longer you wait, the weaker and sicker he gets.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I meant the vet didn't give her anything _in the clinic_ (sorry!) but did prescribed the meds for me to do at home. If worse comes to the worst, I will bring her back to the clinic every 12 hours for the next 10 days and beg the doctor to give her the dosage.

I know I must do it. I'm just very stressed at the moment and a little angry at myself at being such a chicken. Krikky is sleeping now. 

When she wakes up and it's daylight, I will attempt to open her beak and get the meds in (drop by drop). 

Sigh. I hope I won't accidentally dislocate her jaw or anything. I'm so fearful of that 

Thanks everyone......sigh...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> I meant the vet didn't give her anything _in the clinic_ (sorry!) but did prescribed the meds for me to do at home. If worse comes to the worst, I will bring her back to the clinic every 12 hours for the next 10 days and beg the doctor to give her the dosage.
> 
> I know I must do it. I'm just very stressed at the moment and a little angry at myself at being such a chicken. Krikky is sleeping now.
> 
> ...


Gently opening her beak won't dislocate her jaw. You worry too much. When a bird is sick, they need treatment before they go downhill, which can happen quickly. And she needs food, or she will only get weaker and not be able to fight off illness.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Update!!!!

After I wrote that post, I decided to try one more time. It's 6am and still dark, it would work to my advantage because Krikky can't see much in the dark and she's still sleepy.

I grabbed her with the towel (succeed after 7 attempts) and managed to put her on my lap. One hand pry opened the beak (no mercy for you, Krikky!) and I successfully syringed-drop all 0.15ml into her lower beak. She swallowed it at her own pace so no windpipe worry.

After that, she was happily preening, and got two small feathers stuck on her syrupy beak. I grabbed her with one hand, pulled out both feathers with the other. I'm surprised how easy that was and how she couldn't be bothered to struggle anymore.

Maybe she is used to me handling her by now? Before this, I've never 'handled' her. Except for one disastrous pigeon diaper try-on when she was a youngster where she threw herself all over the place and I never did it again.

I feel so relieved now. First dosage in! Next, maybe at 10am-12noon, I'm going to do the same method, hold her the exact same way and try to syringe-drop some Kaytee so she can swallow and get some nutrients into her body. Then at 6 pm, second dosage.

Wish me luck!

Thank you for not giving up on me. Your encouragements works! Will keep everyone posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good for you! Now get the frozen peas. Dripping a bit of Kaytee isn't going to be enough. She's starving. That could also be why she isn't all that hard to handle, as she will get weaker. Please get the frozen peas. She really needs them, and if you could give her medicine, then you can put in a pea. I would give 50 mg once a day of the Metro. We never separate it into 2 times, and for an adult, it would be 50.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> OMG,!.. please give the medication when it says and follow the directions. if you can't do it then board her at the vet and pay them to do that as it is very important.. canker can cause death.


Not to alarm you, but I echo what SW and Jay3 and Dima have already said.

This is a BAD case of canker....it is full-blown.... and your pal has been going downhill fast. 

He needs the first dose asap, not in another 5 or 6 or 8 hours....

I understand your feelings, I do. In a weakened state the last thing one wants to do is cause a sick Pigeon any add'l stress....

...but the canker continues to grow and win out in the absence of a strict med regimen. And that first dose puts the brakes on it before it gets any worse.....


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hope Krik-krik is doing better. Since now it is diagnosed as canker, we probably have a blockage that is not allowing her to swallow. In that case, would the baby food be better than the peas? I have no experience on full-blown canker, but I feel peas might get stuck?? 
I will try to make a video and send it across in message, on how to wrap the bird.
I completely understand, I have too been in situations where I am too emotionally involved to hold the bird properly. I become really clumsy when my mind is not working. Just focus on what your'e doing now, and let go of the fears of the future. This way you can help Krikky in the best way possible.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you everyone yet again.

Because Krikky is unable to swallow her seeds, I'm afraid we may miss another nodule in the throat. That's the reason I'm too fearful to feed her peas. I wish I could because it's so much easier to feed than liquid!

With the help of my brother (who has been a pillar of strength!) he held Krikky down firmly while I managed to get about 5ml of Kaytee into her. It took us about 2 hours and she was very stressed. It's our first time and we didn't want to syringe it into her windpipe so I had to make sure her head tilted as vertical as possible but she struggled so much. Her neck has a mind of its own I swear! 

We also managed to get the metacam into her so hopefully that will help her ease. She struggled so much we thought we had broken her foot or something but when it was over, she hopped up her container and started preening and stretching like it's Sunday.

I've now placed heated pad on her nest. I hope the warmth will soothe her. She is now napping on her eggs.

I think I'm going insane.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

This is the patient resting on heated pad after the whole ordeal. Her lower jaw still swollen.










Krikky is very grateful for all your help!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi. OK, he looks calm and not suffering in any way. That is great. Quite the handsome lad, too....

So he got formula and Metacam...what about Metronidazole ? Did he get any of that ? Metacam will ease pain and discomfort but it does nothing for the canker. The Metronidazole is what is needed for that.

You know that we all love you to death , right ? But 2 hours of struggle ? For only 5 cc ? 

Do you guys know the toweling technique ? Because I cannot imagine it being such a drama as you describe. I think you need to do some quick study of the toweling technique and maybe check some other resources on proper syringe medicating and feeding. It just sounds like things are way more complicated over there than they need be.

You towel the Pigeon, head sticking out, then with one hand hold the head and with the other pry beak open and administer the syringe. It isn't a very laborious process. There is not struggling because your Pigeon is wrapped in the towel and cannot flap around or kick and carry on. Usually, one should be able to feed 5-10cc in about 5-10 minutes, and medicate in a matter of 1 or 2 minutes...

Not trying to be critical here, just saying I think you need to do some quick referencing.....


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Haha Jaye! ...yes, I have just been enlightened by sweet Dhanya who is kind enough to make an instructional video how to towel a pigeon. I realized what I did wrong.

I allowed Krikky too much space to move and didn't cover her head when I first "catch" her. I allowed her legs free roam that led to kicking and struggling. Thanks to Dhanya, now I know.... 

I have given Krik the first dosage of metronidazole at 6am. The full 0.15ml. In 2.5 hours, I will give her the second dosage. It's much easier to medicate than to feed.

But yes, now with this new towel knowledge, we hope to improve the feeding from 2 hours to less. And more than 5ml of course.

Wish us luck!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

My towel method is miserable but a worse thing happened.

Krikky nearly drowned from my noob syringing. Food started bubbling out of her mouth. I panic, released her and she started breathing open-mouthed. She looked like she's at death's door but the human also nearly died. I was shaking so badly my brother had to calm me down.

We stopped feeding immediately. After we've both calmed down, I gave her the Metro's 2nd dosage - 0.15ml - which she took in perfectly. In fact, she seems to like the taste!

Thank heavens she was her normal self again and started, of all things, preening! I hope that's a good sign.

About 30 minutes later, I offered her the seed bowl, and to my pleasant surprise, she pecked and 'forced' herself to swallow the seeds. She didn't look too comfortable but managed to get a few in. She then gulped down some water (hopefully that will wash the seeds right down)

So that's it. Drama of the day. Honestly, I think Krikky is forcing herself to eat because she hates my syringing! I will offer her the seeds everyday. As her canker subsides with the meds, she can start eating normally.

Thank you everyone. Especially Dhanya for the video instructions. I truly appreciate everyone's help and input.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I would not be inclined to feed any seed after only 2 doses of Metro. There for sure are still growths in the tract. A nodule can get torn or scratched by solid food and start to bleed; and this can be a very bad thing. Hold off solid food for 2 more days.

*Do not back off of syringe feeding because you made a mistake. * He is an adult or near-adult, I assume.....so chances of aspirating are very slim, although it does sound like he choked a bit. Had he been a baby, yes, it might have caused grave problems, but an adult can usually cough or blow out anything which would make a youngster aspirate.

When you syringe-feed the formula, just place a drop, talking maybe .2cc, right on the middle of his tongue in the front part of the mouth, then close the beak and allow him to swallow himself. Just little .2cc-..3cc drops per 'bite', repeated, until you reach your 5cc or so for the feeding. 
An adult Pigeon needs about 30-40cc of formula a day. It has plenty of water so this takes care of hydration as well....but in about a day you can give back his water dish because it is unlikely water will cause a canker nodule to dislodge ~ just solid food.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Take the bird to the vet and have them treat her and tube feed her till this clears up, now I want to say KRIKKY! as the Aussie's do. really two hours to feed her ? that is counter productive in her care.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

At this rate, you are either going to aspirate the poor thing, which is very easy to do, be it an adult or a baby, or starve him to death. 5 cc is nothing. An average adult pigeon should be getting about 60 cc a day, divided into 3 to 4 feedings. But shouldn't be fed again until the crop empties. Also an adult would drink about 30 or more cc of water daily, so at this rate, he will also dehydrate, unless he is drinking on his own. 
This is why I felt that the peas would be a better option. They are soft and squishy, and less likely to cause a problem than someone trying to feed who is inexperienced. They also contain moisture, which is a plus. Also, with an adult, if he is feeling well enough to eat, then I would let him. I would leave him with both the feed and the water. If you feel better taking out the larger seeds, then go ahead and do that.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

It is very unlikely if you use the syringe feeding method I describe above (small amt's of food on tongue) that Krikky would aspirate or choke again. When they feel wet food on their tongue, they tend to swallow.

You will also find that once you have him very secure in the towel he will not be able to thrash about and he will sort of acquiesce to being syringe-fed.

IMHO (respectfully), I would not really try peas YET. It sounds like a bad case of canker...even mushy peas will not have an easy trip down to the crop.

My avian vet has said in the past that for a small-medium sized adult pigeon, 40cc/day of formula is sufficient to keep them going. I think after a couple more days of syringe-feeding properly, you can switch safely to peas and it will become much easier for you.

I agree with Jay3 and SW, you cannot just be doing 5cc two or three times daily because you are shy to feed...that _will_ starve him over the course of 2-3 days and the last thing we want is him to get weaker....

This is one of those instances where you and your brother have to firm up and just do it...or as SW says, just call the vet...explain it is a bit overwhelming for you both....and make daily appt's to bring him in for feeding and medicating for the next 3-4 days.

Hope today is going better.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Jaye - I'm so relieved to hear that adults recover better from aspiration. I think the method of placing in the tongue would help... that's what I initially did and thus, the 2 hours. I won't ever go near the windpipe again.

Perhaps as Dhanya has suggested in pm, I could make Kaytee soup and have her drink it instead? 

Spirit - That is the ideal! I would love to return to the vet and have her tube-feed Krikky but truth be told, I don't have the funds (I'm unemployed at the moment) and my dad who had initially sponsored the previous visit is now also sick (like I was a few days ago)... Not a good time to ask for money!

Jay - I really prefer to feed her peas as I think it'll be easier. My only concern if it gets lodged in her throat, then we're in trouble. The canker the vet found was on her tongue. But if it is so, why is she having trouble swallowing? I fear there may be another in her throat that the vet (and I) have missed. So I'm hesistant to feed something large like peas. Trust me, I wish I could feed her peas, it's much less stressful than syringing a tsunami down her throat.

She had her third metro dosage this morning. I really think she enjoys the metro part!


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

When Ricky was ill, I fed him with the dropper. I took 1 ml of the Kaytee exact, and gently guided the dropper past the wind pipe opening, and released the food down his throat. I did this some 10 times, thrice a day. This was enough to see him through the paratyphoid.

If he drinks the liquid food, then there is nothing to worry. Did he eat seeds today? Perhaps you can give small seeds only, or crush the seeds lightly and then give.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kaytee soup is not enough to keep him fed. You are talking water with very little Kaytee in it. You really need to get food into her, and a lot more than you have gotten in. She is going to get weaker every day.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

OK everyone.

I finally found out the reason why Krik-Krik finds it difficult to swallow. It was her tongue that had canker. The nodule has fallen off, but unfortunately, along with her tongue. 

I managed to feed her thick porridge-style Kaytee using Jaye's method. It was tedious and time-consuming BUT I fed a lot. Honestly lost count... maybe about 15-20ml of thick paste? 

Now that the nodule is gone, I will feed her peas to fatten her up.

I feel sad for her. Will the tongue ever grow back?


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

So sorry to hear about the tongue. I just now saw this post here in PT
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-no-tongue-43248.html
especially the last reply relates to your situation.
I think she will be fine, and learn to eat without the tongue.
Glad that you were finally able to give the Kaytee exact. Keep it up!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you for the post. Very informative.

I saw Krikky ate some seed on her own and she can drink too, so that's good. Her throat is now pink and clear - what a relief!

Fourth dosage in. And guess what? I fed her 42 peas! Now her crop is bloated and she's happily sitting on her eggs. I swear her wings and legs are all sore from my hopeless towelling, lol.

She still struggles a lot but I think it's more of an ego thing. She's fine when she's released and immediately hops/flies to my lap and preens my hands/legs/t-shirt. After all the hell I put her through with the syringing, medication and peas, she still loves me! How can anyone not melt?

I will continue to feed her peas until I get a job. Which will probably take a long time. But at least her weight will increase.

Our utmost appreciation to everyone who had come to our aid. We are forever grateful.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

That's a relief, she can eat and drink on her own. 
Sassypants, you've done great. I think Krikky understands how much you are worried about her, that's why she decided to forgive you for the hell you put her through.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I am glad krikky has picked up, I still think you need to remove her eggs, The stress of 24/7 sitting for months and months on end could I believe cause this, I was worried from the beginning and I think you need to be cruel to be kind.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I am also glad to hear that Krikky is doing better again. But I have to agree with Evan that you should remove the eggs ASAP. She needs a break. Less stress might mean a faster recovery. If she should lay again, I would not let her sit them for more than three weeks tops, if at all. Just my opinion!

Are you also getting better? Hope so! That could have been a reason that you were also so freaked out!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you don't allow her to sit them, then she will just keep having them. That would be worse for her. She needs a break from the laying, that is why you let her sit on them for a few weeks. But then, you could take them.
Also, you can add some defrosted corn in with the peas.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone. 

Evan - I totally agree that the egg-factory is taking a toll on her. I think it's better that I keep the eggs on longer so she can build her calcium back. And when she's in mating mode, I'll put fake eggs on the nest so she won't lay anymore.

I bought defrosted corn too... I was just about to ask if it's ok to feed her those. Thanks Jay!

Almond, thanks so much for your concern. I'm much better now but my parents are unwell. Same symptoms I had. I was nursing all three including the bird!

I learnt so much from this episode: 
1. I thought I gave 100% to Krikky but obviously I didn't. I should have been more observant and careful
2. I should be more trusting in my countrymen - surprisingly awesome vet!
3. I learnt the towel commando attack
4. I fed Krikky peas for the first time
5. I now know how to administer medication via syringe
6. Krikky took a taxi and bus, and went on a vet trip for the first time
7. I love Pigeon biz even more
9. My dad and brother have been of tremendous help. I realized how much they understand my love for Krik-Krik. And by their help, I see how much they love _me_. Moves me to tears.
10. Krikky is very egoistic. Even in times of illness, she will not 'lose'. The vet, dad and bro commented how terribly spoilt she is!

I worry about her lack of tongue. I hope she will be ok in time (and still be independent). This morning, I woke up to a feisty bird. She keeps attacking me. It's going to be a challenge to medicate/feed her. I wonder why she's so angry today?

Love me yesterday, hates me today? ??? Strange bird.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Putting fake eggs in the nest won't stop her from laying. When she is in mating mode, she will lay anyway. 
Yes, you have come a long way in a few short days. We are all growing all the time. you feel as though you should have been more observant and careful, but these things do happen. Birds do get injured and they do get sick. Now you have learned new skills to help with her. Let us know how she does.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks so much Jay!

Krikky surprised me today. When it was time for brunch, I got the towel, metro/melo syringe ready and a bowl of peas and corn. As soon as I entered her cage, she looked at me quizzically and approached the bowl.

To my pleasant surprise, she ate all 45 peas and 10 corn on her own. Like a normal pigeon! She swallowed with some discomfort at first then slowly got the hang of it and soon all the peas disappeared. Right before my eyes.

Incredible. This bird is so intelligent. I only need to feed her _once_ and she knows what is expected of her. To prevent being towelled, she gobbled them up quickly.

She took in the meds perfectly and there we have it. Success so early in the day. 

Gosh I love this bird!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good job! And yes.................they're easy to love.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Yay! For dinner, she did the same thing. All 41 peas and 15 corn all by herself.

She LOVES those peas!

And her poops look better than they're ever been.

Thanks soooo much all!


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## Michy (Jul 29, 2011)

Oh wow!! I just read this about Krikky and my heart dropped!! So sorry that she suffered from that nasty canker, but very relieved to hear she's on the mend!! She definately has a wonderful mommy!! What I don't get is knowing how well you care for her, how in the world did she acquire canker? Did the vet give you any ideas on causes?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't get it too.. I did so much preventive measure and I even gave her metronidazole powder in drinkform for 8 days about 1.5 years ago...

But it has happened. The vet asked if she was eating wet grains. Because I change her bowl daily, the seeds are always fresh and dry... BUT after thinking about it, the following could have caused it:

I wipe down Krikky's cage with water every week to wash the dried poop away. There could be some seeds that may have rolled over to the sides that might have taken in the water and Krikky could have eaten those?

Once Krikky finishes her metro dosage, I'm going to house her into the new carrier bag for a few days while I completely wash her cage inside out. It is a huge cage and the cloth may take a few days to dry in the sun.

I'm going to clean my entire room too. I've been sick as well, and I think my room may have caused it.

It's not a good idea to sleep in the same room as a pigeon


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Canker is something that just happens. All pigeons carry trichomonads, which cause the canker. Wet seed doesn't cause it. You can't eradicate a pigeon of trichomonads. You can only knock down the number when you treat for canker. Any sort of stress will bring up the number of trich, and can cause canker. Stress can be caused by anything. In a loft environment, it can be the stress of racing, if you race. Overcrowding will stress the birds and bring on a canker outbreak. Just the change of seasons from cold to hot or vice-versa. The stress of breeding and raising youngsters, or even weaning. They will pass it to each other. Your bird could be stressed by sitting on the eggs and not having help from a mate. Could be anything. 
Does she ever get out into the sunshine and fresh air? That cage seems closed and dark to me. She needs sunshine and fresh air. Canker just happens.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Jay,
Thank you... but that's what the Dr said. It's still a good idea to clean out my room and her cage though.

She gets plenty of sunshine. She gets fly time too. But you're right about the help from a mate. She doesn't have a mate and though I try to put my hand to the eggs once in a while, I can't be sitting on them. It could also be the stress of 23 eggs not hatching. Could be many things.

I hope it doesn't flare up again. Do I have to constantly check her throat for canker? Like once every month?

Her jaw still seem swollen even though the nodule has fallen off... I wonder why?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm just saying wet grains aren't causing canker. Don't think your vet knows birds, as I have said. It's nice if you put her outside for sunshine, as she needs that for vitamin D3. And inside birds don't get that, as even through a window or screen, the suns ray that you need, don't pass through. We keep a bird light over Scooters cage, and have an outside playpen where he can go outside on nice days and bathe and sun himself.
No, you don't have to keep checking her throat. If she isn't feeling well, you would notice it.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Way to go, Sassy...you did what you needed to do for your Pal. Glad to hear Krikky is on the upswing.

As Jay3 said, canker can be the result of so many different things...probably in many circumstances things which we humans just cannot even notice or be aware of.

When I used to have pigeons inside with me, I always ventilated or aired-out the rooms every few days, even if it was just getting a good cross-breeze going for a few minutes.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Way to go, Sassy...you did what you needed to do for your Pal. Glad to hear Krikky is on the upswing.
> 
> As Jay3 said, canker can be the result of so many different things...probably in many circumstances things which we humans just cannot even notice or be aware of.
> 
> *When I used to have pigeons inside with me, I always ventilated or aired-out the rooms every few days, even if it was just getting a good cross-breeze going for a few minutes.*





Agreed! Good ventilation is important.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Ok will keep that in mind and open my windows out as wide as possible.

My room resembles a cave and that could be the problem, lol.

Thanks so much all!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Miracles of all miracles. I really love this bird!

Again, today she fed by herself. 45 peas and 15 corn.

I asked her "Do you want me to towel you... or you can stay very still... while I give you the meds"". Guess what? She stayed verrrrry still, I opened her beak and syringed in the meds without any fuss - no towel, no struggle! She just stood there so obediently!

This bird is incredible. After 4 days, she finally understood that if she cooperates, there will be no towelling.

Wow.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good job! And good job to you too Krikky!


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jay3 said:


> If you don't allow her to sit them, then she will just keep having them. That would be worse for her. She needs a break from the laying, that is why you let her sit on them for a few weeks. But then, you could take them.
> Also, you can add some defrosted corn in with the peas.




Jay3 - ofcourse you have to let them sit 2 - 3 weeks, If you read our posts you will see that's what Dave and I are saying, but months and months on end, not good.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye- Really, only every few days, I have a parrot inside and I vent the room everyday for atleast 30 mins


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Then you are going far beyond what is needed, but nothing wrong with that, really....I don't think most people with Parrots air their room out daily.

But it sound like Sassy doesn't do it much, if at all, so a couple of times/week will certainly help both human and columbid occupants


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Jay3 - ofcourse you have to let them sit 2 - 3 weeks, If you read our posts you will see that's what Dave and I are saying, but months and months on end, not good.


Don't be so quick NZ Pigeon. I wasn't answering to your comment. I was answering to someone who said this:

"If she should lay again, I would not let her sit them for more than three weeks tops, *if at all.* Just my opinion!"
So I wasn't speaking to you anyway.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Jaye said:


> Then you are going far beyond what is needed, but nothing wrong with that, really....I don't think most people with Parrots air their room out daily.
> 
> But it sound like Sassy doesn't do it much, if at all, so a couple of times/week will certainly help both human and columbid occupants


I guess it comes down to countries, In NZ the air temp and quality is perfect for airing out houses, it seems most people in this country air their house out daily regardless of whether they keep pets, I guess that's why they call us the clean green country. 



Jay3 said:


> Don't be so quick NZ Pigeon. I wasn't answering to your comment. I was answering to someone who said this:
> 
> "If she should lay again, I would not let her sit them for more than three weeks tops, *if at all.* Just my opinion!"
> So I wasn't speaking to you anyway.


That's why I like the quote function, no room for confusion, in all fairness your post followed directly on from Daves which was directly discussing my post one before his.

edit to add: I must be blind as I cannot see this post you claim to be responding too.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I guess it comes down to countries, In NZ the air temp and quality is perfect for airing out houses, it seems most people in this country air their house out daily regardless of whether they keep pets, I guess that's why they call us the clean green country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





My post directly followed almondman's. Maybe you should reread it, more slowly. So you see, there really shouldn't have been any confusion. It was pretty clear. Maybe you were in such a hurry to find fault with what others had posted that it blinded you to anything else that was said. Giving help and an opinion is fine, but you seem to have a habit of trying to shoot down the opinions that others have given. It's rude, unnecessary, and serves no purpose. You derail the threads with this ridiculousness. Have a little more consideration for the poster, and just try to help.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi all,
Krikky is doing very well. She's been eating a lot - even gobbling 60 peas and 15 corn at one go yesterday - all by herself too.

It's Day 6 of the metronidazole. We've finished the meloxicam and the swelling has subsided, thank goodness.

We plan to take her back to the vet after the course and have her nails trimmed. 

This entire event has brought me even closer to her, if that's even possible. The intimate times I spent in her cage trying to feed and medicate her, are just very precious moments. She has learnt to trust me and our communication has improved.

Thank you everyone for your concerns, advice and well-wishes! Truly appreciate it!


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

What a adventure you had with Krikky.

I am happy you are at rest now, knowing she is better. It's stressful when your pigeon is getting sick, especially she's the only one you have.

I Wish the best to both of you and family who helped you a lot.


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## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad to know that Krikky has recovered well, and is more close to you now. 

Hope your parents have also recovered well.


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