# pigeon with west nile?



## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Has anyone ever had a pigeon with west nile? I believe the pigeon I've found may have this. It is the ONLY thing where he fits all the symptoms. Doesn't act like PMV. But definitly becoming a neurological issue.
Mudsow


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what are the symptoms of west nile?, and what symptoms does the pigeon have. allot of diseases and illness mimic each other in symptoms so sometimes it is impossible to know or be sure unless you get some testing from a lab through a vet.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have a German Beauty Show Racer that was found outside a Starbucks, with balance issues. He was eating but not enough. His weight was good with lots of muscle around the keel. Over the next couple of days balance got worse and he was cold. I kept him on heat and supplemented him with formula.
I didn't have him tested for WN but the symptoms didn't fit with PMV or Salmonella or any thing else I've seen before. The vet was also suspicious of WN.
Honesty, I didn't think he was going to make it but after 3 weeks and supportive care, he is perfect.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, I found him 2 weeks ago, he's a banded bird. He was tired and easy to catch, thin and cold. I warmed him up, offered food and water. He didn't touch anything. After 2 days, I finally talked to the owner, the bird has been gone since June. I got the feeling, that he didn't want this bird back. So, me being me, now worried that he's been gone that long, started hand feeding him. (still doesn't drink on his own) Used hand feeding formula, fed him for a few days and my day 5 he began eating on his own. Other than thin and tired, seemingly normal, except for the fact that he "thought about preening" never actually did it. He would roll his neck to the side like he wanted to, but no follow through. Then I thought maybe he hurt his neck. But he ate fine and seemed to have full movement. 

After about 3 days of eating like a piggie (again, though I never saw him drink) he began to slow down eating. By last Thursday, I began frozen peas feeding him. Although he's not a fan of me opening his mouth, he swallows the peas with ease. By Friday, he began to have slight tremors. (still in a 88* cage) then his head started to get wobbly, by Saturday he seemed more unstable on his feet. So Saturday and Sunday, I fed about 20 peas every 2 hours during the day. He seems less head wobbly today, however, still shaky,although can get up on his towel roost, and he attempts eating, although his head jerks and he doesn't get much. 

It doesn't look like the videos of PMV, he doesn't roll his head, or throw seed, and isn't contorted in any way, just twitchy if he tries to do stuff. 

Like I said, I've been searching for the 2 weeks I have had him trying to pinpoint his symptoms. 
found this on a Raptor site, haven't found anything on pigeons He seems to be entering the stage 2, with brief moments of disorientation, but doesn't have blindness, or lack of awareness. He responds when you approach and he does make attempts at going down to eat:

Q: What are the symptoms of West Nile virus in raptors?
A: There seem to be three phases, specifically --

Phase 1: Depression, anorexia, weight loss (in proportion to duration of anorexia), sleeping, pinching off blood feathers. Elevated white cell count.

Phase 2: In addition to the above, head tremors, green urates (indicating liver necrosis), mental dullness/central blindness and general lack of awareness of surroundings, ataxia (clumsiness), weakness in legs.

Phase 3: More severe tremors, seizures.

Q: Is there any treatment for West Nile virus in raptors? What is the bird's prognosis at each stage?
A: There is no prescribed treatment. But supportive care can be provided, and it is possible for birds to recover. In general, the likelihood of recovery depends on what phase the bird is in. Phase 1 birds respond reasonably well to supportive care. Once they reach Phase 2, some birds respond to supportive care, but others do not and proceed to Phase 3. Complete recovery is uncertain. Birds suffering from the severe tremors and seizures characteristic of Phase 3 are close to death. Intervention is probably not going to alter the course.

There is a mobile avian vet that is in our area tomorrow. I'm hoping to be able to take him there and get his opinion and maybe some fluids administered, and also perhaps an antibiotic. That seems to be the only thing to do, supportive care. And hope he gets better. Just wondering if anyone else had had west nile with pigeons. Can't find much information about their susceptibility. 
-Mudsow


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

There isn't much information about WN and pigeons written. WN has decimated many crows.
Our member Jodi had several crows and one pigeon with WN, very recently. Some survived. I'll send her a link to this thread and perhaps she can comment.
Are you hand feeding?
You can hydrate orally by giving fluids in small amounts frequently.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I left Jodi and voice message and so hopefully she will be here soon. She has really been through it with WN.

The pigeon I have had very similar symptoms, minus being thin. I crop fed exact formula for about 10 days.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

hi, i'm jodi
it's difficult to say if its west nile virus without testing the bird and you will only get accurate results if he has had it longer than 10 days and you can still get false negatives
first has wnv been found in your area???
if yes, it's a def possibility
i was only able to save 2 crows because i caught it early, other crows i got were too far gone and died or were euthanized within 24 hrs
i still am not positive if my pigeon has it, but i treated him like it was because it is the worst year on record here in my area, it killed 2 of the other piji's
i think the only reason i was able to save the crows i did save and lumpy the piji is because i caught it early
i treated with an anti viral call acyclovir at 80 mg/kg 3 times a day, i think it only works if you get them early though
i also used high doses of metacam to address the encephalitis up to 1. mg/kg 2 times a day, i was nervous to do it though so i gave .5 mg/kg 3 times a day instead
i also gave baytril to cover any secondary infections
it's important to keep them warm with supplemental heat, keep them well hydrated and well fed 
if they won't eat on their own you defiantly need to force them

i hate west nile virus more than anything, it has been a brutal year here and the 2 crows i saved were my crows, one was a baby i raised and released this year and the other was a baby from the year before who has been my buddy for over a year and a 1/2
they both came thru it without any permanent damage
seem like it takes about 2-3 weeks for them to get through it with about a week being the worst neurologically
i know animal control here in my town has got a lot of dead and dying pigeons along with the crows so i tend to think that pigeons may be almost as susptable to it as corvids


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Yes, WN has been seen in our area, we have been told to keep watch for dead birds. Had lots of crows crowing in the beginning of the year,but not so many now. So I'm suspect of WN. I will bring this information with me when I take him to the mobil Avian vet tomorrow. Although he is very sickly, he still is quite aware, and seems interested in me every time I glance in his direction. In the meantime, I'm continually feeding him in hopes of keeping up his strength, what little he has left and hope he can fight this thing off whatever it is. 

-Mudsow


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## tjc1 (Aug 22, 2012)

The birds(crows) that we suspect have west nile in NY just stand there with their mouths open. Look tired and hot. They dont fly very far when you go by them. Seems but at that point they are pretty far gone. Because some just keel over when you try to catch them and die.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

It's so sad, they do get very high fever
When the neuro symptoms start they do just stay still 
The minute they try to walk they stumble and fall over
It's like they are drunk
Another thing I noticed is all the wild crows were going thru a heavy molt on their heads
I'm thinking this might be one if the reasons they get so sick
More Mosquitos able to bite them, and bluejays go thru that crazy molt when all their head feathers molt at once 
All the wilds were extremely emaciated by the time I got them
My 2 crows where in a healthy weight, I support feed them, so maybe that helped them survive the virus
Although was was another baby I released this year that I couldn't catch, he didn't like me, and he was found dead down the street from me
I think the most important treatment is the supportive care and the metacam for the encephalitis


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I have a rescue with quite similar symptoms -- I've had him for a year. He had complete leg paralysis when I first brought him in, as well as dark green slimy droppings, and severe respiratory problems. 

I treated with Baytril, presuming paratyphoid, and he mostly recovered -- though he still has a lot of neurological problems (particularly with the legs -- also head twitching and wing trembling) -- and he has always been very thin, despite generally eating pretty well. He periodically stops self feeding, too, and needs to be hand fed. I can't figure out a pattern to this eating/not eating business. Right now, he's picking up and dropping seeds, the way a juvenile does when it is learning to eat (so, we are handfeeding) -- he did this for months when he first recovered. 

His legs are spasmodic -- he falls easily, and his legs seem to have a mind of their own .. he has a lot of trouble walking, though he can manage to get around his padded hutch, and can drink on his own. 


Otherwise, he's alert, very sweet natured and loving, and appears healthy -- no respiratory problems, nice feathers, fiesty, etc. He's adapted well to life with a disability, and seems to be a pretty happy little guy.

This sounds very similar, symptomatically, to the bird you are describing --

I've always assumed this was residual neurological damage from paratyphoid, but that is just a guess on my part. He definitely responded strongly to the baytril when I first brought him in.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, we have a mobile aviary veterinarian that happened to be in the area today. So I brought my pidge over to see him. Although he couldn't say if it were WN, he did say that just because the onset of neurological symptoms started a week after I found him, he also couldn't rule out head injury. He said he was extremely thin, which I already knew. He gave him an injection of B vitamins ans told me to just keep up with the supportive care. That he needs to put weight on.. and he showed me how to tube feed. Also confirmed that I can add a bit of nutrical (for dogs) to his formula so it may help him beef up. He said with neurological problems, it's like people with a stroke. Sometimes they recover, sometimes not, it is a crap shoot.

So, to sum up... he thinks he looked really bad, however... I believe he looks actually better than he did a few days ago, he didn't see his worst. Although he is still shakey,(drunk) and having difficulty feeding himself. He is not hanging his head slightly to the side anymore, his head isn't hanging as low as it was when he's at rest. And occasionally he will lay down and his feathers all slick back like normal instead of standing puffed up. So, I will continue to feed him, more formula, not just peas and occasional corn. Now that I can tube feed, I think I will be less nervous about aspirating, so I'll be able to hopefully beef him up. 

Still keeping my fingers crossed
-Mudsow


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Did he do a fecal?
It's amazing what supportive care will do. You have him on heating pad set on low?Warmth makes such a huge difference and I think changing to formula is a good idea.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

No, he didn't do a fecal, although his poops look not too bad. I think his main concern is fattening him up. I was feeding formula, but only once a day, since I was doing it liquidy, I was afraid of aspirating him. Now that I know how to tube feed, I can up my formula feedings and cut back on the peas eating. I was feeding peas more, because it was less stressful for him than slowly swallowing liquid formula with me getting it all over him. 

I agree, he needs to get weight on. he is literally a walking skeleton with feathers.

Mudsow


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Poor thing.
I was tubing my rescue 20ccs, 4 -5 times a day. When he arrived he was about 400gms. Now he's at 520 gms. He always had great looking poop too.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I do about the same amounts tubing as charis 
Vet didn't want to give him metacam?


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

That's just it, I don't want to over feed, and I have no clue how much. I was giving 6cc of formula and then about 15 peas. then the during the day feedings were just about 20 peas each. It's hard to tell if after the 20 peas, he is full, or it takes 20 peas for him to get pissed off enough to spit one back at me ;-) The last 3 days I have been feeding about 20 peas every 3 hours. So now I will up my formula feedings and hopefully he will start to gain. Not sure if peas are at all fattening. At least they are nutritious enough to keep him going. 
It could be my imagination, but I think he's "glad to be home' from the vet. He's been moving about in his cage, going to the food dish, pecks a bit, then jumps back on his towel, attempts to preen, then just looks around at me. 

I'm not an expert, but that doesn't seem like a bird that wants to die 
Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

You need to get to know his crop 
Fills up and should feel like a marshmallow 
If y


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

If your afraid to do 20 do 12 and feel his crop after 
If you do smaller amounts you will need to do it more often
Mbe every 2-3 hours when his crop empties


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

No metacam. But again, I do feel that he is better than a few days ago, so I think with supportive care, I'm hopeful that he will heal. Not sure if metacam would do much since he's already been neurological for nearly a week. He is not getting worse, he's not advancing, so maybe he feels that what ever swelling is receding on it's own. Or who knows being so skinny, what side effects does metacam have? He certainly doesn't need any complications with his digestive system. 

I am a "first do no harm" kind of person with all of my animals. I'm all there for nutritional support, but I'm not quick to medicate unless absolutely necessary. The body has an amazing ability to heal given time. And this pidge can sit under his UV lamp on his heating pad sucking up formula and peas for as long as he needs. I'll keep you all posted.
Mudsow


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Metacam is a great anti-inflammatory, which can really help with the neurological symptoms. 

I hope your bird recovers! Sounds like you are doing a great job with him. Congrats on learning how to tube feed -- it'll make things easier, I assure you.

This bird is lucky that you two found each other.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

You mentioned his head is hanging low. I have a rescued pigeon who was in that state. In 2 weeks recovered. No more dropping head. He was on bayrtil ( but also because he had punctures over his chest and back).
In my post, there are pic and videos; we thought he was run by a car or his neck was kind of broken. But hanging/dropping head was all along weakness for being to skinny and whatever trauma he's been though.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Yeah, he's also not as "tired" as he was when I originally found him. Although still skin and bones, and rests alot, he's not sleepy, if that makes sense.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

That makes total sense -- and it sounds like he is recovering. 

I'm glad to hear it, and I hope it continues!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

How's piji doin today?


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Still wobbly. But now gets 12cc hand feeding formula with a bit of nutri-cal and 15 peas at each feeding. I guess time will tell. Hopefully we can put some weight on him and go from there. He is no worse than he was, so I'm still hopeful that with time he will get better. 
-Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Is he dropping a lot of feathers?


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Nevamoa the crow and lumpy the pigeon did


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

No, not dropping feathers at all. Hmm, maybe it IS an injury then. Now that you say that, my chicken was dropping tons of feathers when she was being picked on by my other hen... stress will do that. But nope, Pidge still has all his feathers. I think we only have 1 and that may have been helped out by us handling him. Hmm, I asked the vet, why would an injury show up a week after we had him. Because when we found him, he was cold, tired and skinny. But after about 5 days, he was eating on his own and seemingly getting back to normal. No signs of neurological damage at all until about 3 days AFTER he was eating normally. He just slowly began to stop eating, then the tremors, then the clumsiness, then the head shake when he tried to eat, and then he could no longer get enough seed to feed himself. That's when we took over again. 

The vet said sometimes their built in safety mechanism will not show signs of illness until they get comfortable then symptoms appear. 

I don't know, I'm still feeding him and we'll see where it takes us. For now, he seems comfortable, maybe with some weight on him, he will begin to show improvement. He hasn't gotten any worse in a week's time, so we'll see what this next week brings.
-Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

They didn't start dropping lots if feathers till about 2-3 weeks into it, when they were on the other side of the virus and doing way better


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well he's now about a week after showing neurological symptoms. Again, when I found him, he was skinny, tired and cold, so not sure if that was the beginning, and neurological signs is a sign of advancement? or is that when "symptoms" start. Or was anorexia and sleepiness the onset. By finding him, I'll never know exactly when he began acting sickly. But I can monitor him now, and be sure that he gets food.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Nevamoa the crow just looked sick and felt feverish for 4 days before the neuro symptoms started, 2 days after that the neuro symptoms got worse
Was really bad for about 4 days then agonizing slowly started improving 
But I had him on all those meds and I'm sure it shortened and made it so the symptoms were not as bad
Sounds like every bird is different


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

He tries to eat on his own, although he doesn't get much, I'm giving him peas too. Do I need to throw a few pieces of grit down him? to digest the seeds he does get? or the peas? I know the hand formula doesn't need grit, but he does get the peas and a few seeds. 
Just curious


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah I would, or give him a little dish of it
Mbe he pick at that himself too
I set nevamoa up on a low perch a couple if inches off the floor of the kennel
And put his food and water right in front of him so he didn't have to move much to eat
Was hard for him to aim to pick up food
He only felt stable on that perch during his worst days
The minute he stepped off of it he was stumbling around


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

I have mine in a cage about 2'x3' It has a heating pad underneath, and it's a metal tray, so the entire thing gets warm. Plus I have a "black light" in his bulb on top of the cage. This gives an ambient room temp of 88* The entire thing is draped in a towel to prevent draft, except for a one foot opening in the front. There is a rolled up towel on one end for him to jump up on to get off the floor heat. I switched that to a shelf like thing, that he did like, but then he either jumps off to warm up, or he just starts getting cold. So I switched back to the rolled up towel. He likes to jump up there to "perch" . He has a bowl of grit in there, always has, but never goes to that dish, just the food. I still haven't seen him drink either. So liquidy formula and frozen peas seems to be keeping him hydrated, his poops look fine. I was just concerned that in case he did get substantial amount of seeds down him when I'm not lookin' that he would need grit. 

Thanks, I shot a few pieces down with his evening peas. 
Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Good job, supplemental heat helps them so much
Does your guy feel feverish?


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

No, he either feels mildly warm, or cool, hence why I removed the shelf. He has never been panting, like he's hot, he's occasionally been fluffed up, although now he is normally not super fluffy, he's just a bit puffed, or not at all. So I've been regulating the temperature according to him. So far 88* with the towel seems to be his "G" spot as far as temp goes.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I hope he can get thru whatever is going on
So hard to know for sure sometimes
Give him a scritch for me


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, today I've added carrot juice to his mix... He's had more power packed nutrition in his little crop in this past week than he probably has EVER!


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, this morning he is getting more off balance,  now he is beginning to resemble the PMV birds. I'm still hopeful that he will get over this, heck, we're getting quite attached to this little guy. So, I will continue his feedings, and I'll keep everyone posted. Hopefully he will not be too bad for too long.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, he has had a bad week-end. Really seizuring. So today we were able to start him on Baytril. So we'll see if it helps. Still feeding him, so drug administering is easy. He's warm in a dark cage.... time will tell.

Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Ah poor guy, I don't (thankfully) have much experience with pmv
I know they can get thru it
I have only had one bird come in with it and it was a mourning dove who was all over the place, terrified, kept ending up on her back, regurgitating her food, panting and flipping all over the place, was aweful 
I had to euthanize her, she was just suffering too much
Poor guy, hopefully someone will come along with advice for pmv
I'm gonna give you a little another little nudge to give him metacam for any
Possible inflamation he may have in his brain
Can make a big difference in the outcome and any permant brain damage


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, this was a BAD week for him, he spent most of it standing on his head. More than PMV, he just seemed to have vertigo. He's been on the baytril for 5 days now. I personally do not have much of a sense of smell, and for the past few days my DH has been saying that he really smells. Although I see no visible signs of canker, I decided to treat w/metronidozole since I have it on hand. And... TODAY HE'S UPRIGHT! Woo Hoo. I don't want to count my chickens, because he is still wobbly. But he's had a helluva few months. But to me... upright is a godsend. It was so hard looking at him either on his head or on his back with his feet up. In spite of all this, he has always been in good spirits. He likes to people watch. Even when he was upside down, when we took him out to feed him, he would melt into your hand and just watch. He's always been "with it" his eyes were always clear and alert, he just couldn't right himself. 

Again, not in the clear by any means, however, sitting up is 1000% better. I think I'm on the right track. 

-Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

That's good to hear, I hope the worst of it is over for him


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

He's been up all day preening, stretching resting, preening, preening. I guess when you're flipping around in your own poop for a week, getting icky SUCKS. Me rinsing him off a bit didn't do a great job, but it did keep him somewhat clean. And he began EATING on his own too. 
Not tons, but he did eat. I'm still tubing him, since he needs his meds and I'm not stopping now. Plus he's still not really drinking. He has a very small water cup, just in case he relapses. I'm amazed at how much better he looks today. Last night when I went to bed, he was literally laying on his back, feet up neck curved. I was beginning to wonder if we were being realistic with our hope of a recovery, or were we just prolonging his misery. But he's always had a sparkle in his eyes.

Well, we'll continue with his baytril and I have to go check on how long to give the Metronidozole. But Things are looking up for this little bird. Hard to tell if the shakes he's having and wobbliness is all just from lack of condition. I mean, we've had him a month now! And he ate minimally the first two weeks, we fed him the last 2 weeks. And when I got him he was emaciated. So between lack of nutrition, and not using his muscles for a few weeks, I'm sure he's going to need some recovery time. I'm just glad he looks so much better!!!


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I usually go 10 days with the flagyl unless is a severe case
He sounds like he is on his way
Do you have a scale to weigh him?
I usually weigh everyday
It's very rewarding to see them gain
And if they are not you know you need to feed a little more
I'm using a product for the first time called avi-gain
I really like it so far except its not ground down small enough to get into a syringe
I cut the tip off a 1ml syringe and mix the avi gain with a tiny amount of water for my piji
Also used it for the crows when they were sick
Been putting it on the food for the gull I got a few days ago


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

This stuff 
http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=14233


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

I bought some Harrison's Organic high potency bird food. 
http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/High-Potency-Formulas/departments/2/

I'm planning on adding this to his seed when he is officially eating on his own. Right now he tries more than he actually eats, but he's trying and being successful. Just not enough to "put on weight" 
I weighed him Monday so I'd know the baytril dosage. 11.5oz. Thursday he was 12.5 But I haven't weighed him since. It was difficult to get a good reading while he was tettering. I'm still taking it slow with him, he is quite wobbly, but still upright


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

How's piji?


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

He is actually doing rather well, considering he isn't eating on his own ;-) 
Today I found that the Harrison's food soaks easily, so I mixed that 1/2 with the Kaytee for lunch. I'll do that again for later and eventually just use that. 

He was standing on one leg this morning when I looked in.... So it looks like he is regaining his balance. He also was able to reach all the way to his tail (on his back) a feat that has not happened since we've had him. He always seemed to "want" to preen back there, but just looked and never quite did. 

I am not ruling out that he may have been injured. But he appears to be slowly recovering. He still keeps his head tucked in, but doesn't seem to be painful at all, even when I stretch him out to tube feed. Now that he's no longer tremoring and twitching, he has no issue with me feeding him. He is a real sweet bird.

We've now named him "Homey P" 

http://s3.beta.photobucket.com/user/mudsow/media/Homey10-31-2012.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I used to have one named "Ice-P" -- lol. 

Sounds like your bird is doing really well!

The one I mentioned earlier -- my rescue with similar symptoms, still isn't eating on his own either ... and this after most of a year of him self-feeding pretty well. So, I am handfeeding, and I have no idea how long I'll be doing that.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

So glad he is still improving 
The photo bucket link didn't work


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Let's see if this works...


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Cool, it worked... Does anyone know what Kind of Pidge he is?
I'm thinking a Mealy or red bar?? from what I've seen through pictures. but I'm, a complete idiot when it comes to pigeons. But hey, I'm learning, 
-Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I don't know what kind but he is sooo pretty


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I don't know anything about the fancy breeds either -- but he sure is a good looking bird!!

I hope he recovers fully! His poor little eyes still look weary


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks for the recommendation about the Avi-Gain, Altgirl. I've been eyeing that product myself...glad to hear you like it.

I used to live in Arcata


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, it seems he gets a bit stronger everyday. I am soaking the Harrison's high potency feed, added Harrison's Omega 3 BOOST, and digestive enzymes and benebac to get his digestive system a hand after all of those antibiotics. No drugs now, just supplements. Yesterday we put a brick in his cage in case he felt strong enough to "perch" and lo and behold... BAM up he went. So now he sits on his brick under his light and preens, sleeps, flaps and preens some more. He still stands with his head a bit lower, not up and proud yet. But he does seem to be standing a bit taller every day. the only neurological symptom now is head tremors when he's nervous. Still won't eat on his own, and he still has 1/2 normal looking poops and 1/2 thin strands with liquid. So I'm pretty sure it is PMV. However, I think the worst is over. I feel he's recovering, it will just take time. He's such a pleasant little bird. 
Mudsow


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, that sounds a lot like PMV. Sounds like he's doing very well, and you've done a great job with him!  Thanks for the update!

Has he tried to eat on his own at all?


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I hope this little guy is yours for the long haul -- sounds like you are giving him a great life.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

He showed some signs of attempting a few days after his upside down week. (so over a week ago) but he was not successful. In the 6 weeks we've had him he has NEVER taken a drink. Even with us holding his beak in. The only time he was eating was for about a 3 day stretch a week after he arrived. Other than that, we've been feeding. I bought some spray millet yesterday and put that in his cage, since that's the seeds he seemed to prefer, but nope. He has food and water in his cage, but nothing showing that he's at all interested. Yesterday I was at work 12 hours, so my DH fed him peas for lunch. He did ok. I'm going to try to incorporate at least one small pea feeding into his day so that he remembers how to swallow ;-) Not just grab squirt and I'm full. 
-Mudsow


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

*Cage upgrade for Homey*

Well, since I couldn't tell in his smaller cage if he was hot or not. I upgraded his housing. Now he has 2 bricks, one under the lamp and the other on the "cooler" side of the cage. Since he has been less tipsy and getting his balance back, I'm hoping he will walk a bit in the cage for re-hab ;-)
Mudsow


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Nice new digs!  

I don't know what to tell you about the not eating -- I'm still hand feeding my little neuro guy too, though he does drink on his own -- so I hand feed dry peas and corn, and little pea sized balls of formula. 

There have been a few of us who have had this happen with birds who have neuro problems. Mine does the same thing yours does -- he ate for the first couple of days when I first brought him in, after I got him stabilized....then stopped eating, and was having problems pecking seeds -- so I formula and hand fed for a number of weeks. He then started self feeding for a number of months, and has now stopped again, and we are back to hand feeding. I've had him a little more than a year.

Overall, my bird is pretty stable (ongoing leg spasticity, some twitching, but he can get around his hutch on his own, stand a bit sometimes, etc.) -- but the lack of self feeding is really puzzling to me.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

You would think they would want to eat. Homey is still very thin, but we're working on that. Still wobbly when he walks, but he walks. Again I'm hoping with the longer cage, he'll try to move around more. He really just sits on his brick preening, and watching us most of the day. He preens ALOT. I'm hoping that is normal. He was pretty gross by the time he stopped standing on his head. So I was glad when he started preening. I was getting tired of washing him. He does a MUCH better job at cleaning himself than I did. I just hope he can regain all of his functions. I can't tell what is weakness vs virus. I mean, he had to have been sick for a while before we got him, then he went through the neurological upside down crap, still thin as a rail. So he's just now getting to where he is "gaining" some weight. So a few months of sickness can't be resolved in a few weeks of feeling better. I'm sure it will take some time. But so far so good. He can get on and off the bricks, so to me that is exercise.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I know, it's puzzling, about the eating. My little guy is still very skinny despite hand feeding. 

I think the preening is a really good sign, if he was grungy ... pigeons generally like to be quite clean. 

Your Homey has a big advantage over my Hazmat, who can't perch much at all -- his legs are just too spastic, and he can't really control them. He walks a bit, but it is a huge effort, and he falls over half the time. He had a period of head standing, too. 

In Hazmat's case, I am almost positive it was paratyphoid (it was pretty classic) -- but his symptoms are really similar in a lot of ways. I've just accepted that the neuro stuff is probably permanent to some degree, and that we will always be facing a number of special needs. 

I adore my little guy, and am willing to do whatever it takes to keep him healthy and content-- but I really hope your Homey gets a more complete recovery. He's a lovely bird! 

Despite it all, I think my Hazmat is pretty happy -- he's very vocal, loves attention, and seems to enjoy himself most of the time. He was a juvenile when I found him (still peeping), so he's never really known any other way of being.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Do you have another pigeon with him? I'm wondering if a companion would help to re-learn how to eat.

Not that I'm thinking of another bird, just curious if it helps in recovery. I noticed ones that have a partner seem to be more active. or is that just my imagination.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

He is housed alone, but right next to another disabled bird -- they are good company for one another, but they get fussy if I put them in together (he stumbles into her, and then she starts pecking him). They are both very, very tame, and enjoy my attention quite a lot.

The strange thing is that this bird knows how to eat -- he's pecking up grit on his own again -- but he just isn't self feeding. 

I do think they are happier with some company, in general, but solo birds can do fine as long as they learn to enjoy human company and they get enough attention from you.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, I'm sure he'll eventually be moved into my computer room where my 2 chickens are... yes, they are indoor chickens. 2 chicks at the same time from a hatchery. Were fine for a year, then all of a sudden the dominant hen began beating the crap out of the other one. So where they once shared a 3' x 8' home, they are now divided into 3'x4' with their roost running between, so they can still sleep together at night. They eat together at the divider, and can see each other, Penny just can't get to Peaches anymore. Made Peaches alot happier! But when they come out, I have to watch them, they will be fine then BAM chicken fight. Sad, I got two for the companion thing. Out last hen was alone and loved the dogs, she went all over with them. But one chick was hard to raise without PEEP PEEP PEEP fire alarm sound. So this time I went for 2. Oh well, who knew. But anyway, He has been in the dining room in Quarantine, so we could wash after handling. Wasn't sure what he had, and didn't want anything going to the girls. But once he gets back on track and everything seems fine, he'll be up here since this is where I am most of the time ;-) So he will have someone to talk to. He'll have to learn chicken


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

while the idea of company may sound good, i would keep a very close eye on him. 
Presumably they will be kept separate, but even so he may feel threatened & the least bit excess stress may well bring on the nervous symptoms again.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Oh yes, definitely separate. Penny would eat him for lunch even though they are bantam hens, she could squash him easily 
But he's no where near moving. Although he did handle the cage upgrade quite well. Only took him about 10 minutes of taking it all in before he was up on his brick. Now he goes from brick to brick with ease. At this point, I think he enjoys "people watching" since he's right by our dining room table, he gets plenty of visitors. That was what's kept him going. Even when he was upside down... when you'd look at him, he would look right back at you, like "yeah, I'm upside down, so what" He's never been out of it "mentally". Just had no coordination and seemed like vertigo. I am SO glad that part is over. That was very hard to watch. Again, if he didn't respond so quickly with his eyes, we may have put him down. But he always has been alert.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, my Hazmat went through an upside down phase, too. He was on his back and nearly dead when I found him, and he had no use at all of his legs -- they were totally limp. 

He pretty quickly recovered to the point of being able to stay upright most of the time, but with periods of flipping over. He still occasionally gets going too fast, stumbles into a corner of his padded hutch, and ends up on his head. 

As soon as I put him upright, he puffs up, coos mightily, and looks indignant. I can almost understand him saying, "I meant to do that!"


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I think it is very cute that you have indoor chickens!


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Mini, how much do you feed Hazmat at each feeding and how many feedings? Just trying to see if 'm feeding correctly.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I feed him little pea sized balls of formula, and also dried corn and peas. It's usually about 60 or so pieces per feeding, twice a day. Ideally I'd do three feedings, I think, but his crop is a bit slow to empty (not terribly so .. it always has been, I think because he is pretty inactive) and two seems to work best, for him as well as for my schedule. 

He has food available to him at all times, so I am hoping he will start self feeding again very soon. He does drink on his own.

He is gaining weight, slowly. I have some nutri-cal for dogs, as well as a supplement called AviGain on order, which I hope will help him gain a bit more. I am waiting for both to arrive.


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Well, post Thanksgiving Homey update. A few days ago he began coo-ing at feeding times. When I'm in the kitchen preparing his food, he must know it's coming as I will hear him quietly coo,coo,coo. He only seems to do this at the two feeding times. DH says he's never going to start eating because he likes fresh hot meals served to him. However today he began stabbing at the food dish. I snuck up on him and watched, he did manage to get some into him, dropped most of them, but wasn't throwing any, and he's a bit more upright most of the time. He only turns his head upside down when very nervous. So there is hope that he will eventually eat on his own. WooHoo.

Meanwhile, we will be still serving breakfast and dinner for his highness 
Mudsow


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you for the update, I hope he keeps improving for you


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Weight yesterday was 425g when we got him he was only 320g. So I think he's feeling better ;-) He is attempting to eat, getting some, but not what I would call a "meal" so we're still feeding him 2x a day. He now knows when it's 8a and 9p he starts hooting. Last night at 8:30 he began digging in his dish, running circles and hooting. Hmm, a little demanding now! It wasn't even 9 yet! lol

How long does he need supplemental heat? He has a heating pad under 1/2 his cage, it keeps his perching bricks nice and toasty since they hold the heat. I also have a small reptile heat lamp over one brick that I put on during the day, but he seems less and less interested in sitting under it. Does that mean I no longer need additional heat? I can no longer feel his prominent keel bone. It's there, but finally not sticking out.

Mudsow


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

The hooting at meal times is adorable! That's good progress with the weight gain. 

I give Hazmat a heat pad all winter long, just because I know he is immune compromised, and it gets cold in our place. He seems to like it. 

BTW, Hazmat started eating on his own last week, and now he's gobbling up seeds like there's no tomorrow! I hope your Homey does the same, soon. Though I do have to say it sounds like he likes the attention of feeding times.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

I think if he likes it let him keep it
If he moves off the heat most of the time shut it off
Let him tell you


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

BTW, Hazmat started eating on his own last week, and now he's gobbling up seeds like there's no tomorrow! I hope your Homey does the same, soon. Though I do have to say it sounds like he likes the attention of feeding times.[/QUOTE]

WooHoo, GO HAZMAT!! 
Every day, I see seeds all over, so Homey's trying, I do think he is getting some, I try to sneak up on him to look, but he stops and looks at me. 

He was out after his dinner last night on the table and just started flapping like a crazy boy. Magazines flying napkins all over. He creates quite a bit of wind! He'll be nice on a hot day! lol

Mudsow


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

minimonkey said:


> Yeah, my Hazmat went through an upside down phase, too. He was on his back and nearly dead when I found him, and he had no use at all of his legs -- they were totally limp.
> 
> He pretty quickly recovered to the point of being able to stay upright most of the time, but with periods of flipping over. He still occasionally gets going too fast, stumbles into a corner of his padded hutch, and ends up on his head.
> 
> As soon as I put him upright, he puffs up, coos mightily, and looks indignant. I can almost understand him saying, "I meant to do that!"


Lol. Your comments about what Hazmat " said" are too funny!


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

Quick Homey update, he's up to 440 grams! woo hoo. No more protruding keel bone. I do notice that when using carrot juice to make his tube feeding mush, it seems to help his neck upside down thing. He has now started eating on his own. Since I can't really tell "how much" he's actually getting since he makes quite a mess, I've reduced his feedings from 48cc 2xday to just 24cc 2xday. I feel I need to feed twice since he looks forward to it (he starts hooting at 8am and 9pm) so I'll slowly reduce and keep weighing him to see if he's actually getting enough nutrition. 

I ordered some moxidectin plus for horses (in a tube) I'm thinking he may be strong enough to worm. I'm going to try to get a fecal test done, but thought I'd have it handy since I was thinking about worming my chickens too since they are molting and not laying right now. I'll see if I get gutsie enough to do it. I'm not one to do anything unless I need to, but with all this bird has been through, I have to think, he'd have some parasites in him. Now that he's stronger, I think it wouldn't hurt. Thought I'd share a nice picture, he was posing last night after dinner  He's such a ham!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

WHOOOHOOO HOMEY! That's great news that he's eating (and flinging seeds) on his own. Spectacular news about the weight gain, too. He's looking really good. 

I love that picture -- what a handsome goofball of a bird 

So, I'm very interested in the carrot juice thing -- how often is Homey doing the head upside down motion? How much better does it seem to be with the carrot juice? I wonder if maybe its the vitamin A in there that's helping? 

Hazmat may have some carrot juice in his future.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Worming always scares me, too -- particularly if a bird is weak at all. Moxidectin Plus is about as safe as wormers get, though, and all my birds have tolerated it well, including Hazmat. 

I've only had one questionable experience with it, which was in a bird who was doing very poorly in general (she belonged to another forum member, and I was trying to help save her). I have no idea if worming worsened her condition or not.


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## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

He looks great!! What a pretty boy!


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## mudsow (Oct 8, 2012)

I just use about 1/4 -1/2 carrot juice when I mix the food. I soak pellets, so I soak in warmed carrot juice, then once it swells, I add water to thin enough for syringe feeding. I read on another forum that carrot juice was good for viruses, so I figured, why not. Although we learned that too much will cause his feet and eye rims to be REAL RED lol that's when we backed off  It's just the last few weeks when I had backed off the carrot juice because he was seeming better, that he began really holding his head upside down almost flat to the ground, when I added the juice he started holding it upright again. Not sure if the juice was the answer, but it does appear to help him for some reason. And yeah, wormers scare me.. I followed the thread on Freebird, that was very sad. I think she may have had such a worm burden that there was no way to relieve her of that without a shock to her system, and there was no way to get her better with all the worms, it was a catch 22. You did your best with her and we all learned alot.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks -- that was such a load of heartbreak.  I have no idea if the worming played into her demise or not. 

So glad that Homey is doing so well. If carrot juice works, then by all means keep it up!


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## Teresa (Jul 10, 2005)

Great thread, lots of really helpful information here!
Best wishes for Homey and Hazmat, I hope they're both doing very well!


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