# Which color is this



## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

Hey all,

would you call the "red" one in this pic a recessive red, recessive yellow, ash red spread or what. What exactly is the makeup of this bird. I Have a black cock, a blue bar hen, a black hen with white flights, and this red hen and am trying to figure out how I breed to get different colors.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's recessive red.


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

Does it then have another gene making it lighter? I googled, and most of those recessive reds are much darker. Like:


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Alright, out of those birds, you can get these colors:

A black cock with the blue hen:
If both the black cock's parents were also black, then all the babies will be black. If not, you'll get about half black and half blue.

Black cock with black hen:
If one of these birds had a black parent and a normal colored (blue, red, brown) parent, then you'll get mostly black children with a few blues here and there. If one or both of the black birds in this pair are homozygous for spread (having both parents spread/black), then you'll get all black babies.
Because the hen is pied, you'll get a chance of possibly having pied birds too.

Black cock with RR hen:
No telling. You could get blues, blacks, ash-reds, browns...etc. Just depends on what genes are hiding under the RR. One thing you will not get, is recessive red or yellow, UNLESS the cock bird is carrying RR. But regardless, if you take a son from this pair and mate it back to the mother, you'll get some RR colored babies.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

There are varying shades of RR. A lot depends on the breed and how much effort someone has put into improving the color. Spread, bronze (I'm assuming), brown or ash-red genotype, grease quills, darkening factors, etc. can effect the shade of RR.


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

ok, thanks a lot for the explanation. I will start with the black and RR, and then we will see what we get


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

Btw, she has a white feather in her tail. Does that mean she might be a pied too ?


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, white feathers in RR's is still something they're trying to figure out just what genes are required for them to show. RR covers up most genes except a few that change the way they look. RR birds with white are called mottles usually, and typically they'll get more white feathers with the moult, but not always. Just depends on what's making them get white feathers!  But yeah, calling her a piebald is fine.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*REVERSION to WHITE*



NetRider said:


> Btw, she has a white feather in her tail. Does that mean she might be a pied too ?


*I will quote fromJoe Quinn's book "An Introduction eo PIGEON SCIENCE"The process of reveion to white, associated with the reduced pigment reservoies of recessive red pigeons, is called acromatosis.The natural reversion to white in Whiteside tumblers and the artificial reveersion through plucking, in the color pigeons,exemplifies this form .Very little is understood about the pigmentation process or genes involved." end of quote.SERAPHIM these birds are born with recessive red or yellow after the first molt they lose all the recessive color and become pure white. Your bird with one white tail feather will molt in more white every time it molts I currently have 3 birds that carry the reversion to white gene.................GEORGE*


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

So I can expect more white in the future. 

Btw I read about the RRs, and how they might be any basic color beneath. Is there a way to tell whether its a blue bar, ash-red etc? Or is the only way of doing that to breed from her?


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## birds+me=happy (May 21, 2009)

Heres an easy way to do the math: http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingDuif2EN.html


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Not necessarily*



NetRider said:


> So I can expect more white in the future.
> 
> Btw I read about the RRs, and how they might be any basic color beneath. Is there a way to tell whether its a blue bar, ash-red etc? Or is the only way of doing that to breed from her?


Your bird looks to be a spread recessive red and is not likely to moult in more white, in my opinion. It might have pied factor, giving the white tail feather but doesn't mean it will moult in more.

T pattern recessive reds tend to moult white into the wings and some turn into whitesides. Spreads do not do this.

From the grayish belly, I'd guess that it is a blue based recessive red but can't be sure. Is the rump bluish? This is usually where it shows most.

As for color intensity in recessive reds, it varies greatly, depending on what other factors are involved, mostly bronze but smoky, dirty and sooty also can intensify the red and give better distribution of color.

The bird that you showed from someone else is next to a kite and you can just about bet that the red bird also has kite bronze in it's background as well as other darkening factors that will intensify the color.

Bill


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

I see, thanks for the valuable information 

I will look for the bluish rump. As for molting, I expect this bird to be 2-3 years old, and if it didnt molt in more white, maybe it wont either.

Btw these are some birds I newly bought, and a friend has a similar RR, but his bird has more white feathers in the tail, and a white rump.

Here is another picture of her:


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

Alright,

I got a chance to take some more pictures.

Here is a pic of the rump:









And here is a picture of the underside of her tail:









I guess the grey color means she is a blue bar underneath the RR ?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

NetRider said:


> Alright,
> 
> I got a chance to take some more pictures.
> 
> ...


 *Could be a blue check the only way to know for sure would to test breed this bird to a blue bar.Then if you get a blue check youngster you will know that your RR carries check* GEORGE


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

OK, but we can be sure its not an ash-red?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Pretty sure, yes*

With all that blue showing, it's pretty safe to guess that this bird is blue based. The pattern could be anything from t pattern to barless, won't know without test breeding.

Mating it to a blue bar would also tell you if it is spread. If you get any black youngsters, it is also spread. If this mating produce any ash reds, you'd know that your red is ash red based but I doubt this would happen from seeing the other photos.

Bill


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## NetRider (May 6, 2007)

Ok thanks for the help. I will try some different matings.


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