# Barless question



## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

If I pair up a blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless, what would be the chances to get barless babies?


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## akbird (Apr 29, 2010)

Zero. If you mate 2 birds that carry barless you would in theory, get 75% bars and 25% barless. If you mate a barless with one that carries barless, 50% bar and 50% barless.


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## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you akbird! Problem solved.


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## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

I read somewhere that if i mate 1 blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless I get 50% offsprings who carries barless. Is it true?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Madalin said:


> I read somewhere that if i mate 1 blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless I get 50% offsprings who carries barless. Is it true?


not possible. Barless is the lowest in the order of dominance. You will ONLY get barless if both parent at least carry barless.

Is this just a random query or do you want to produce barless? Because in that case you can interbreed the second generation of the bar + barless, since the young will both carry barless even though they don't show it, they should produce barless as well as blue bar.

Check this site out, its a lot of fun (to me anyway )

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingDuifSpecial.html


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Madalin said:


> I read somewhere that if i mate 1 blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless I get 50% offsprings who carries barless. Is it true?


What you read is wrong, As said by the others, Both have to have barless in their genotype to produce barless young.


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## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Madalin said:


> I read somewhere that if i mate 1 blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless I get 50% offsprings who carries barless. Is it true?


That is correct; 50% of the young will be heterozygous for barless. Unfortunately there is no visible indication which are the barless heterozygotes. The only way to positively identify the heterozygotes is by test-mating with barless birds.
It may be possible to identify the heterozygotes by the width of their bars, i.e. the bars are narrower, but I don't know how accurate that method is.


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## Henk69 (Feb 25, 2010)

Better link:
http://kippenjungle.nl/pigeoncalculatorspecial.html


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## Madalin (Apr 25, 2013)

I did the "http://kippenjungle.nl/pigeoncalculatorspecial.html" test. It seems that what I read is correct. And what said indigobob is also correct. If you mate a blue bar carrying barless with a blue bar non carrying barless you get 50% of offsprings blue bar carrying barless. indigobob is right, you can test them, mating them with barless. I guess this is the easiest method to introduce *barless as a new color into a breed*. If I mate a barless german trumpeter with a blue bar indian fantail, I get 50% indian fantails blue bars who carries barless. Then I mate the _50% indian fantails babies who carries barless_ with a _100% indian fantail blue bar_. After that I get _75% indian fantails_ and 50% of them will be blue bar carrying barless. I will test them to see who carries and who doesn't. After I will idetify the ones who carries barless, I will mate them together and I will get _75% indian fantails who carries barless_. etc etc till I get the desired barless indian fantail. *IS IT A GOOD PLAN?* Which plan is the best and fastest?


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Madalin said:


> I did the "http://kippenjungle.nl/pigeoncalculatorspecial.html" test. It seems that what I read is correct. And what said indigobob is also correct. If you mate a blue bar carrying barless with a blue bar non carrying barless you get 50% of offsprings blue bar carrying barless. indigobob is right, you can test them, mating them with barless. I guess this is the easiest method to introduce *barless as a new color into a breed*. If I mate a barless german trumpeter with a blue bar indian fantail, I get 50% indian fantails blue bars who carries barless. Then I mate the _50% indian fantails babies who carries barless_ with a _100% indian fantail blue bar_. After that I get _75% indian fantails_ and 50% of them will be blue bar carrying barless. I will test them to see who carries and who doesn't. After I will idetify the ones who carries barless, I will mate them together and I will get _75% indian fantails who carries barless_. etc etc till I get the desired barless indian fantail. *IS IT A GOOD PLAN?* Which plan is the best and fastest?


I re read your query from before. You are right, as you said, they would *carry* barless. But as every one agrees it would not show.

Your plan might get a little more complicated than you think.

By mixing two breeds you have no way of knowing what they will produce. Colour wise, it is as you said.

But you are not only mixing colours, you are mixing feathers and form. Each breeding season you might get the colour you want, but getting the correct breed of bird will be another matter.

why a german trumpeter? Is that the only barless bird you have on hand?

If possible I would try to breed the fantails to a barless bird that is more similar in body shape at least.

Getting the fantail back into the barless mix breeds will be another long term project.

I am not expert. I am only just starting myself, so hopefully others can give you more pointers on breeding plans.

From what I have read I would concentrate on getting the very best barless colour into a bird that carries fantail blood. And then re start the project to get the fan back in the bird's tails, again by breeding into the very best example you have.


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## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

Madalin said:


> I read somewhere that if i mate 1 blue bar who carries barless with a blue bar who doesn't carries barless I get 50% offsprings who carries barless. Is it true?


There are two different things:

Your first question was about barless babies and "akbird' was right, the chance is zero.

Your second question was about birds that carries barless and you and "indigobob' was right, the chance is 0,5.

But....but LisaNewTumbeler has the more right... Indian fantails are too far morphological from Tumpetters. This means that Trumpetters are not a good choice for introducing barless in Indian fantails. Even so, there are English fantails that are barless.

https://www.facebook.com/wildbriar.lofts/media_set?set=a.103564366419454.6662.100002976730619&type=3


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

Madalin said:


> I did the "http://kippenjungle.nl/pigeoncalculatorspecial.html" test. It seems that what I read is correct. And what said indigobob is also correct. If you mate a blue bar carrying barless with a blue bar non carrying barless you get 50% of offsprings blue bar carrying barless. indigobob is right, you can test them, mating them with barless. I guess this is the easiest method to introduce *barless as a new color into a breed*. If I mate a barless german trumpeter with a blue bar indian fantail, I get 50% indian fantails blue bars who carries barless. Then I mate the _50% indian fantails babies who carries barless_ with a _100% indian fantail blue bar_. After that I get _75% indian fantails_ and 50% of them will be blue bar carrying barless. I will test them to see who carries and who doesn't. After I will idetify the ones who carries barless, I will mate them together and I will get _75% indian fantails who carries barless_. etc etc till I get the desired barless indian fantail. *IS IT A GOOD PLAN?* Which plan is the best and fastest?


You could determine which birds are carrying the barless gene in the second generation if you mate homozygous (pure) check pattern Indian fantail to the barless trumpeter in your first mating. All F1 will be check carrying barless. Mate these heterozygous (impure) checks to bar Indians. Since check is dominant to barless, the youngsters who inherit check from the check parent will not possess barless and the young who inherit barless from the check parent will be bar because bar, being inherited from the bar parent, is dominant over barless. So, only the bar F2 offspring will be carrying barless. Mating these F2's together will result in 25% barless youngsters who can then be mated back to check Indians. This process can be repeated as often as needed, eliminating the need for test matings.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Sorry my bad, I misread the post and didn't see you stated they would carry barless. Sorry again.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

tmaas said:


> You could determine which birds are carrying the barless gene in the third generation if you mate homozygous (pure) check pattern Indian fantail to the barless trumpeter in your first mating. All F1 will be check carrying barless. Mate these heterozygous (impure) checks to bar Indians. Since check is dominant to barless, the youngsters who inherit check from the check parent will not possess barless and the young who inherit barless from the check parent will be bar because bar, being inherited from the bar parent, is dominant over barless. So, only the bar F3 offspring will be carrying barless.


This is a good trick, I use a similar method when breeding my Ash red cocks carrying brown to blue hens. All the cocks that are blue, carry brown.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

tmaas said:


> You could determine which birds are carrying the barless gene in the third generation if you mate homozygous (pure) check pattern Indian fantail to the barless trumpeter in your first mating. All F1 will be check carrying barless. Mate these heterozygous (impure) checks to bar Indians. Since check is dominant to barless, the youngsters who inherit check from the check parent will not possess barless and the young who inherit barless from the check parent will be bar because bar, being inherited from the bar parent, is dominant over barless. So, only the bar F3 offspring will be carrying barless.


except he wants to introduce barless into birds which do not carry it, not find out IF they carry it...


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> except he wants to introduce barless into birds which do not carry it, not find out IF they carry it...


Yeah, that's what Tmass has given a formula for. Breeding them in using a barless trumpeter and a check indian fantail.


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## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> except he wants to introduce barless into birds which do not carry it, not find out IF they carry it...


My process will help speed up the introduction of barless into another breed by eliminating test mating numerous birds to determine whether they have inherited the barless gene or not.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

tmaas said:


> My process will help speed up the introduction of barless into another breed by eliminating test mating numerous birds to determine whether they have inherited the barless gene or not.


I see. I apologize, I misunderstood.


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