# crop won't empty - sour crop?



## Brooks (Oct 15, 2006)

Hi, this is my second post:

so we decided to add some finch seed to the baby bird formula that we've been feeding our young 22 day old pigeon. last night we fed him and his crop puffed up and he seemed happy. the next morning his crop had not gone down. we tried giving him some water, to little avail. 

he _has_ been pooping a little, though. so i suppose his crop has not completely stopped emptying. however, he is very still and unusually quiet, so it seems like he's not too happy. he's pitching forward a little due to the weight of his crop.

so, my question is, what should i do to help him!?

thanks so much, 

brooks


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it sounds serious. You can try to massage the crop and either work some stuff through or make the bird regurgitate the stuff. Sometimes formula sets up like mud (some would say concrete but it's never quite that hard) and then things just stop. It can be life-threatening if you don't get it resolved. Let's try massaging the lump and trying to break it up into softer stuff first of all.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Brooks, 


Candida or additional concurrent Yeast infections of the Crop and digestive system, seems to be a none-too-uncommon occurance with those Babys or Youngsters which are hand-fed diets consisting of store bought powder-mix 'Baby Bird' formula.

I have never seen any cases from Nature of Baby or Youngster Pigeons haviing these problems, but I have seen some from youngster Pigeons or sick or injured Pigeons who have been compromised from their illness or injury to have Candida when I find them.

In your other thread, I recommended you consider to add several drops of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to each small batch of freshly made formula...even when that formula may contain additional ingredients to the basic 'powder'...

And my reasoning was to prevent Yeast and mold or related propigations in the formula over-night and between meals the next day, and, to start to ward off any possible problems in the Bird himself which may have already been beginning.

Now, I am not mentioning this in an 'I told you so' kind of way, Lol...but merely so as to aid in some overview...since this is a problem one sees often enough, and it is good to know how to both avoid it, and or to understand it pragmatically.


What you can do, or what I myself would do ( and what I do when I get youngsters showing Crop Stasis from their having been some days in someone-else's care before being brought to me, or when I find them that way stranded out in the world, or find Adults injured or ill who also have it, ) is...


Figure to let them fast for four days or so...


And begin now for their drinking Water to be made by adding ( no less than ) Three Tablespoons of raw Apple Cider Vinegar to a Gallon of Water, and mix up a Gallon like this, and let them drink all they like of this for the next week and a half or two weeks. If he is not drinking because he feels poorly, then you will have to tube-feed him his ACV-Water INTO his Crop, for a couple three days till he is feeling better.

Either way, if he does have Candida/Yeast problems in his Crop, it can cause the Crop to stop functioning and even to stop passing any food on down to the stomach at all, so, what IS in there can start festering and fermenting all the worse, and the ACV-Water will both get that under controll as well as to cause the organisms to cease reproduceing to allow his Crop lineing and passageways to heal and regain their functions.

Meanwhile, no more food...let him fast, and let his Crop empty out completely, and keep him warm even, as well.

No harm if you wish to gently but deeply and thoroughly massage his Crop now and then, or even often, once he is on the ACV-Water.

If his Crop is in fact 'puffed up', meaning that it seems to contain gas or air...this is one sign of things fermenting IN his Crop or Stomach, produceing not only gas, but toxic poisons which will effect his system as a whole, and serious problems for his Crop and Stomach and Gizzard, and for his digestive system as a whole, which will start to slow down or even shut down with the infection/infestation.


A 'full' Crop from eating or being fed a good sized meal, will not be a 'puffy' Crop of course, but will be a 'mushy' one ideally, or will be somewhat firm perhaps, pending more Water being drank.

Older Pigeons can have 'firm' full Crops, and that is fine, they are firm with Seeds and not a water-repellent slug of thickenned 'paste', they know what they are doing and all is well, so long as they can drink if they want to.

Youngsters seem to need a lot more Water, and or also, if being fed powder formula, the formula can make a sort of 'slug' in there, and this slug becomes water resistant, so gentle massages can help it dissolve...

...there are many particulars one needs to observe in order to remain safe from various problems in hand-rearing Babys or Youngsters...problems they would not have if being fed primarily Seeds, as their parents do.


So, if it were me, I would get him started now on the ACV-Water, let him fast the next four days, see how the Crop emptys out and how the poops are once they start happenning again to some extent from extant food being processed through...


And we can re-evaluate soon...

If it turns out that once on the ACV-Water, his Crop empties tonight, or overnight, and poops resume overnight ot tomorrow, then maybe he can have some small meals, of Seeds-in-light-gravy only, and see how those do...where, the problem might be getting dealt with without that it had become very bad yet for needing a four day fast to clear up....so...see how it goes...

Let us know the updates...and...


Good luck!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Brooks (Oct 15, 2006)

we've been massaging him, and his crop feels spongy and balloon-like. there doesn't seem to be hard things inside. he hasn't vomited anything either. 

i've been reading around the forum and have seen some home treatments of raw apple cider vinegar with water. should we give some to him?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Brooks,

Phil did suggest using the apple cider vinegar, and this is a common treatment for sour crop. You can also use baking soda dissolved in water.

Even though there isnt' anything hard in the crop, you do need to clear up the puffiness.

Terry


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi Brooks,

Sorry to hear your little guy is not feeling well.

You have gotten some good advice, I would just like to add, although it may be unnecessary, not to use the apple cider vinegar and baking soda at the same time, as they react together.

All the best,

Ron


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

A drop of olive oil will help work it through also.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, personally, I don't subscribe to the theory that store-bought formulas will cause candidiasis in an otherwise perfectly healthy youngster. I think the cause is usually something else like a lower-crop case of canker or the GI is shutting down for some other reason. You can mix formula too thick and that can be a problem, also. Tampering with them by adding stuff can cause problems, too.

Most nestlings the age you're describing are actually getting simple seeds that have been soaked through and through, along with some water from the parents. Formula is a nice and easy way to feed them, especially if you're tubing it in, but it's certainly not as natural as what they'd be getting from their parents. It can be, however, more nutritious if the parents are eating badly. They pack that stuff with digestive enzymes, vitamins, probiotics and the right balance of protein, fats and carbohydrates for the psittacine species (parrots, cockatoos, etc.). I think it's a pretty good diet for pigeon nestlings, too, as I have raised many pigeons from very small to adulthood on the stuff (only). They usually end up larger in musculature and bone structure than the siblings that go natural. I have also used the stuff to bring back very sick and very injured birds as well. When I have problems with sour crop, it's always from some other reason.

Anyhow, when they get into a deal where stuff did go out of their crops but their crops are puffy then you can stop feeding them formula and just roll some dried peas, popcorn (unsalted and unbuttered), safflower seeds and the like down them and make sure they get some water and see how that does. If that goes through then you're not in any real trouble but if it doesn't they something's really wrong and you'd better get an anti-canker medication down them in a hurry in the fear of one of the worst-case scenarios.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, personally, I don't subscribe to the theory that store-bought formulas will cause candidiasis in an otherwise perfectly healthy youngster. I think the cause is usually something else like a lower-crop case of canker or the GI is shutting down for some other reason. You can mix formula too thick and that can be a problem, also. Tampering with them by adding stuff can cause problems, too.
> 
> 
> Pidgey



Hi Pidgey, 

I do not think it is that simple...or that it benifits form being over-simplified like this.

And, that is not what I had said.

It MAY permit an otherwise was going nowhere degree of Candida, to blossom.

I had recommended putting several drops of the raw ACV INTO the "powdered formula" in order to head off any background problems which MIGHT, under the conditions OF "exclusive" powder diet, start to gain ground orr assume a pathological condition of concern.

I never said that KT or any other stuff "CAUSES" Candida.


Given the many occasions here on our list where Candida-like symptoms arise with formula fed youngsters...

Given that the first cases of it I ever saw were from Pigeon Babys/youngsters others had been feeding storebought powder formula to, prior to getting the Birds to me...

Given that I have never had it happen in any Baby or youngster I had raised...

Given that the only other occasions I have seen it were with Pigeons with foreign objects in their Crops...

There is an "association"...and the association is hardly something I have presented as a "theory' or axoim.


Given that a great many Pigeons fed basic powder formula do not develop these symptoms, we might do well to ask -

"What are the variables in these situations which might be effecting the difference?"


We do not know what people are doing, we seldom know much about how they are doing it. Almost certainly, they are NOT doing it the way you or I would.

I myself do not have any single idea about what IS making this happen, other than it happens.

The association remains an important matter of concern and interest for the well being of these Birds, and for some eventual clearification of hand rearing practice, for the Birds to be healthy.


When we do not outline correct precautions, and or detailed proceedures ( with or without the underlieing reasoning) or even when we do, we get scalded Crops, punctured Crops, Babys being fed fermenting food left on the counter from the day before, Babys stuffed with roasted soy nuts, ropated pea nuts, other crap...canned Dog Food ( I got one recently that way which aside from being perfectly healthy, died within an hour and stank horribly FROM the canned dog food stuffed into it's Crop, partially because everyone always says, "Oh! Just feed 'em dog food!!!) and any other imaginable mis-hap that the person may NOT think to detail for us to allow us to correct.

So, if someone writes in describeing probable Candida Crop symptoms, on an otherwise far-as-we-know "Healthy" Pigeon youngster, should we wait a few days while we talk about other matters, or should we do something to explain at least something about it in practical terms, and or tell them about what to DO about it?

If there is an 'association' tat can be proceeded upon practically, which keeps repeating itself, why not be open minded to investigate the potential value of what wondering about what might be happenning for there to BE an association, instead of repeatedly, defensively, dismissing it and degrading the mentions as if I were trying to impose an arbitrary or fatuous or pre-judiced idea in the absense of any evidence or reason?

I care about pragmatics which are demonstrable.

I care about 'Theory'.

I have never promulgated any "theory" here on this matter that is so axiomatically stupid as what you are inferring. 

I have sometimes mentioned some summary or summary acceptance from what I have seen, learned, observed and accepted for my own practice when confronting these symptoms, and when knowing something of the Bird's prior istory when others had been feeding them thus...and I have speculated on the causes of the Crop troubles being ASSOCIATED with store bought powder formula and when it is used exclusevely.

I have also many times tried my best to give proper mixing and use instructions FOR those useing JUST the formula, so they can avoid most of the worst mistakes others have made with it.

What more do you want?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## gimpy01 (Oct 21, 2006)

*help...sick pigeon*

can anyone help me on my bird. I think he is sick.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

I wasn't actually trying to be combative and had precious little time so I was trying to reduce what I thought into a small package. The true message there was that another, more insidious problem may be brewing: trichomoniasis. If it sounded like I was taking a potshot at you, then I'm sorry. 

Allow me to re-state something that I said a long time ago: the sick pigeons that we take in and care for often heal in spite of our best efforts. What do I mean by that? Exactly what it said, including my own efforts. When it comes to Candidiasis, how many birds do you know of that have been presented to this forum for Internet diagnosis have been positively identified as having actual Candidiasis as demonstrated by actual lab swabs examined microscopically for oval budding yeast cells from the crop or fecal smears? None that I can think of, although I have seen such in my microscope a very few times. Does that mean that none of the suspected cases were in fact Candidiasis? Of course not!

What I'm really pointing out is that when we don't really know for a certainty what a bird is afflicted with, then we can't be sure if it healed due to the therapy applied or by sheer luck in spite of what we did. By the same token, we can't be sure when it died whether we were too late or just plain wrong either, unless a thorough necropsy is performed and I can only think of a handful of occasions where that's appeared on the forum.

As to the incidents where nestlings have died or appeared to get Candidiasis-like symptoms while being fed Kaytee (or other formulas), to be perfectly fair most of those incidents are in the dead middle of trying to rescue a bird that's either been rejected by the parents, orphaned by one means or another or some other such story. That said, the list of probable unknowns as to the general health of the birds (not to mention possible injuries, internal and otherwise) is rather endless. Bearing that in mind, I have a difficult time blaming either the formula or the practice of its use.

Does that mean that the formula is never to blame? Can't go there, either, I'm afraid. Candida is a normal inhabitant and it's included in the formula as well. That's not because they can't keep from putting it in there--it's included because in its normal quantity, it's a good thing. Actually, that's probably not even important because the onset of Candidiasis is usually because of something going wrong with the rest of the system. Candidiasis is more of a secondary infection or problem than a primary one, one of the more interesting causes being vitamin A deficiency.

As to the depth of detail that any of us goes to in order to make something clear in a post, you generally go the extra mile to be sure and that's to be commended. Sometimes, it backfires if the supplicant takes one look at the overall length and bails out of reading that particular post for sheer impatience. When that's the case, then it may well be that the only chance, however small, that the bird may have is something ridiculously simple like "have you got any puppy chow bits?"

All we can really say is that each case has its own challenges and what worked there may not work here for a bewildering plethora of reasons, including reader non-participation or "operator error". And sometimes folks come on here with a pigeon with a problem and they're not willing to take any actual advice--they're just shopping for sympathy. The fact is that we're never going to save them all and it will sometimes be because we're stepping all over each other trying to do it. I hate it when that happens but it's never going to go away because none of us is omniscient, nor are we as a group. C'est la vie!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Since we are dealing with people's describing abstractions at best...I feel that if we are being given reports of Gassy or inflated Crops, reduced appetite, and suggestions of Crop stasis, that we ( in flying by the seat of out pants as we must in thsi context,) be prudent to suppose a high probability of Candida and or Yeats, since no other cause we can reference will be recalled to produce this symptom or syndrome.

Canker I agree should be considered, if not as 'cause' of the inflated or Statiuc Crop, but as primary lead-in to favoring conditions where Candida can begin to become clinically significant, or, Canker as something which can opportune in the wake of Candida or Yeast damage or compromise...and I was remiss in not asking both about the Pigeon's poops and Throat, not that either of those are per-se conclusice exclusionary factors for some Canker presentations which may not show in them.

But, given that the regimen I outlined for Candida, had worked well for those instances where I did have a Vet clinicially diagnose "Candidiosis" as the "reason" for an infated and 'static' Crop and reduced appetite and general listlessness or depression in the Bird...as well as that the regimen has worked well every time, for the many times I saw sufficiently similar or the 'same' symptoms in absense of clinical diagnosis...

Given that the regimen does no harm to the Pigeon or Dove, and will benifit them regardless OF whether they have a clinically diagnosed case, a guessed0case, or any variation of case of Candida, or not...


Given that few private people first or even tenth time careing for a young or other Pigson, on a Friday, or any day, will have access to some Avian Vet to obtain a clinical dioagnosis, let alone finding one who will do so for less than say a hundred and fourty bucks IF you can get an appointment within the next several days at all, IF the Vet will even 'see' a Pigeon, or even find an Avian ( let alone an expienced in THESE matters of ) Avian Vet at all...to obtain a perscription for 'Nystatin'...and...


What then is the objection for a person employing this simple, straightforard, ecomonical and pragmatic regimen in cases where the described symptoms are at least probable, or are appearently classic signs OF Candida?

What is not to like????


Best wishes, 

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I'm a guessin' that I don't think of it in those terms, actually. I notice that Brooks hasn't posted anything since Friday evening so I'm worried about the little guy already. For the record, I've seen gassy crops that didn't seem to have anything to do with Candida and resolved on their own fairly directly. I couldn't tell you if these guys occasionally get indigestion and burp like we do or what. They certainly seem to do just about everything else although they don't get skin infections near as easily.

There was one bird that I actually felt had chronic Candidiasis and that it had toughened up the crop (which takes awhile). The crop felt like a pressurized leather balloon but it didn't actually seem to slow the bird's appetite up much though, gas, tough crop and all. The only reason I got the bird to treat was because it couldn't fly fast enough out of the yard to escape me.

Anyhow, if Brooks' pigeon is still with us and still experiencing a gassy crop, then let's put the ACV regimen into tangible numbers. At the 2 tbsp/gal dose rate, that's 30 ml/3785 ml or 0.0079 ml/ml. That's about two drops per 10 milliliter (10 cc's) feeding as a drop of the ACV measures out to be nearly 40 micrograms (1/1000th of a milliliter) per drop out of the dropper I used. They're not going to vary that much although you'll probably get a slightly smaller drop out of a syringe. Since this isn't a medication per se and you're only shooting for a shift in the acidity, that's probably fine. Now, take those numbers and extrapolate a dose that you'd be happy with per food measurement basis.

From my own experience with my own body, my appetite certainly goes away when I get gassy. Personally, I use Simethicone (Gas-X) under such circumstances and I'm beginning to think it may work in some of these cases as well albeit we'd need to come up with a way of cutting it (might not need to, though, if it's a drug that isn't absorbed).

I re-read in Rupley (MANUAL OF AVIAN PRACTICE) where it says that "predisposing causes [of Candida overgrowth] include delayed crop emptying, prolonged antibiotic use, poor husbandry debilitation and vitamin A deficiency." So the chicken and egg question here is that the crop stasis comes first, then the Candida overgrowth comes next. It later says that trichomoniasis is often a cause of the Candidiasis. I will say that I've gotten to the point where I believe that the most likely thing to "get" a nestling at that exact age (~20 days) is trich. Now, you do have to understand that it's possible to get a case of trich (wherever in the body) and actually get over it on one's own. For all the wild pigeons that you see alive and in decent adulthood, that pretty much IS the story. It's pretty rare that they don't have it existing in their flocks at all times. I can just about always find it in my flock here when I test a wild bird for it. In the writings about trich that Dr. Chalmers did, he noted from numerous necropsies (of birds that only died because he wanted to clinically test them) that some strains almost always formed lesions in the liver that eventually resolved on their own, sometimes leaving scar tissue. The immunity that those birds gained from that experience gave them somewhat of an immunity to the more virulent strains that clinically did kill virtually all of the birds inoculated with it that had no previous exposure to any strain of trich.

I'm pointing this out because it's quite possible that many birds get these events that they just naturally get over just like a normal childhood disease as long as it doesn't go too far, which is more than likely up to the individual. Within my own flocks (feral and domestic) I have found this to be a redundant phenomenon and that the application of Metronidazole brings the most repeatable positive results. If ACV works for you then by all means use it and recommend it all you want. I used to keep it in my loft's water every winter (the original recommendation that I read was to use it in winter only for whatever reason, I never knew) but I finally gave up messing with it. I discovered that when I wipe out the Trich in the entire loft and then don't let it get back in, there's just no need to bother.

That strategy doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on incoming feral casualties, though. I just don't treat them unless I'm going to put them out in the loft or unless I've got clinical evidence that they need it (visible canker lesions, positive tests from swabs and smears). That kind of testing is not an option available to most people, of course.

There was a thread sometime ago where it was suggested that a lot of unresolvable crop stasis cases were due to canker lesions at the lowest portion of the crop or between the crop and the proventriculus. Since then, I've re-thunk the advice that I give in such cases quite a bit and have begun more rigorous testing in such cases. I just don't get a lot of them, frankly, so it's real slow going. Given that you have the equipment, Phil, as well as the room now, you ought to go ahead and get busy working on that--testing the slow crop birds that you get in for trich. It's really just too easy.

Pidgey


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