# One loft race rules



## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Howdy. If a person enters a couple or three birds into a one loft race, say for 500 bucks per bird. If the birds get lost before training starts or after training starts, are you "just out"? No refund? No nothing?

I know that you can send a replacement up to a certain point, but when training starts and you lose three birds at 500 each, is that just the way it is and you had 1500.00 fly away.

I'm just wondering. Some one loft races are very expensive and I am wondering how it works. Thanks in advance for any answers.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

conditionfreak said:


> Howdy. If a person enters a couple or three birds into a one loft race, say for 500 bucks per bird. If the birds get lost before training starts or after training starts, are you "just out"? No refund? No nothing?
> 
> I know that you can send a replacement up to a certain point, but when training starts and you lose three birds at 500 each, is that just the way it is and you had 1500.00 fly away.
> 
> I'm just wondering. Some one loft races are very expensive and I am wondering how it works. Thanks in advance for any answers.


Yup, that's the price you pay for playing with the big boys I guess. If you are passed the date to replace birds, you are out the money. Ocassionaly you will find an event that will credit you a spot in the next year's event, but this is pretty rare from what I understand.

Dan


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Dan is right. Before you send birds and spend that kind of money, you better be darn tootin' sure you know your breeders inside and out and even that isn't a guarantee.
If you just want to play the game, find the cheapies until you get established with good breeders. 
If you don't spend $50 entering a race somewhere, you'll spend it anyway on something else, but $500 a whack is truly for the big boys or the rich folks.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

There are a few races out there where you only have to pay if the birds make it to the first race. The disadvantage to this is if they loose a lot of birds, the prize money drops. The bottom line is send your best reliable birds. I was in the Alaska race where they had this policy. Over half the birds were lost, and the prize money resembled the entry fee. Not fair for those who sent the birds to the race. Good for those who lost their birds. It might be good to make a thread on recommended futurity races. Cost, payoff, numbers etc. 

We could have one for one-loft races as well as futurities. We could even go so deep as to put in handlers etc. 

Randy


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

hillfamilyloft said:


> There are a few races out there where you only have to pay if the birds make it to the first race. The disadvantage to this is if they loose a lot of birds, the prize money drops. The bottom line is send your best reliable birds. I was in the Alaska race where they had this policy. Over half the birds were lost, and the prize money resembled the entry fee. Not fair for those who sent the birds to the race. Good for those who lost their birds. It might be good to make a thread on recommended futurity races. Cost, payoff, numbers etc.
> 
> We could have one for one-loft races as well as futurities. We could even go so deep as to put in handlers etc.
> 
> Randy



I think that's an excellent idea. You can get it started. LOL........just kidding......actually, it's too late for this year, but if we could get it started late this year or EARLY next year. I raise my babies so early and sometimes the timing just isn't right for me to get the best birds entered. Happened this year. We put birds in a small futurity in Asheville, NC but they didn't start accepting birds until late March or maybe even April. Heck, my birds are separated by March. LOL
So we put some breeders together which made their third round, which I don't like to do and then I got a bunch of white or mostly white birds instead of the BC's and BB's that I had gotten out of the other two rounds. Don't feel that I sent my VERY best birds, but I'd already paid my entry fee, so had to send something. Maybe they'll surprise me. 
Avion actually got two birds that I planned to send. Oh well..........


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks all. I just used the 500 as an example. I did enter two in a 125 dollar race and one is lost. So, I still have hope. They are out of my best, but I only have a 6 pair of breeders and this is my first ever one loft race, and my first year in the sport for over twenty five years. It will be very dissapointing if the other bird never gets into a race.

Thanks again.


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## Avion (May 28, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> I think that's an excellent idea. You can get it started. LOL........just kidding......actually, it's too late for this year, but if we could get it started late this year or EARLY next year. I raise my babies so early and sometimes the timing just isn't right for me to get the best birds entered. Happened this year. We put birds in a small futurity in Asheville, NC but they didn't start accepting birds until late March or maybe even April. Heck, my birds are separated by March. LOL
> So we put some breeders together which made their third round, which I don't like to do and then I got a bunch of white or mostly white birds instead of the BC's and BB's that I had gotten out of the other two rounds. Don't feel that I sent my VERY best birds, but I'd already paid my entry fee, so had to send something. Maybe they'll surprise me.
> Avion actually got two birds that I planned to send. Oh well..........



And you can't have them back. LOL


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Avion said:


> And you can't have them back. LOL











I would never dream of asking for them back.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Howdy. If a person enters a couple or three birds into a one loft race, say for 500 bucks per bird. If the birds get lost before training starts or after training starts, are you "just out"? No refund? No nothing?
> 
> I know that you can send a replacement up to a certain point, but when training starts and you lose three birds at 500 each, is that just the way it is and you had 1500.00 fly away.
> 
> I'm just wondering. Some one loft races are very expensive and I am wondering how it works. Thanks in advance for any answers.



Different race events will have different rules. It's important when considering a One Loft event that you review the format and rules. Just as an example, *The Winners Cup* see: http://www.winnerscupusa.com/

With this particular event, you can replace the birds up to a certain date, and then after the 100 mile training toss, you must "activate" your bird, which means pay the capital prize fee. If the bird then gets lost after you "activate", then you have no chance of winning any races, you lost. 

It's only my personal opinion on the matter, but if you have a One Loft race, where a high percentage of birds are lost before the races, then the person or persons running the event, may have a lot to learn yet about racing pigeons, and they may not get another opportunity to manage any of my racing pigeons. 

The majority of YB losses during training, is due to handler error, and not due to any genetic defect, that's my story, and I am sticking to it. Everybody and his brother in law now are trying to set up a One Loft race, attracted by the opportunity to earn those "Perch" fees, and take a slice out of the capital prizes. Some of these events are not managed very well. 

I'm not rich, I work two jobs to support my pigeon vices. But it never made any sense to me to send valuable pigeons to a "cheap" event. A single person can only manage so many pigeons well. I have heard of the various "short cuts", that various "loft managers" at some of these wannabe One Loft events are doing to "save" money. 

The reason why I chose the *"Winners Cup"* for some of my birds this year, is because they are quickly gaining the reputation for really setting the 'Gold Standard" in One Loft races. The quality of their accommodations, training, and care, is second to none. Just a couple of examples, each bird has at least 9 cubic feet of living space, and they are watered before training and race releases. This is certainly not the norm at many other events. 

When you have world class birds, you want world class accommodations and competition. If you want to be a player, then go for the gold, and it's a bargain compared to the fee's involved in getting a horse into the Kentucky Derby. And remember, if you don't play, then you can't win !


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Different race events will have different rules. It's important when considering a One Loft event that you review the format and rules. Just as an example, *The Winners Cup* see: http://www.winnerscupusa.com/
> 
> With this particular event, you can replace the birds up to a certain date, and then after the 100 mile training toss, you must "activate" your bird, which means pay the capital prize fee. If the bird then gets lost after you "activate", then you have no chance of winning any races, you lost.
> 
> ...


You are right and maybe what I said wasn't understood correctly. If you're just starting in this pigeon game, I don't care WHAT your pedigrees say, you don't KNOW your birds yet. So, I was saying unless you've got $1500 to flush down the toilet, it doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money on a whim. Spend it on at least a VERY educated guess. If you want to send birds out just to see what they'll do, send a few to a $50 auction race or something. IF they do good, you might win a few hundred dollars. If they don't do good, you've basically just lost a good dinner and a movie.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft: So, is losing 25 birds out of 166, prior to the first training toss, way way too many lost? Is that a sign of poor handling, at a one loft race?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Lovebirds said:


> You are right and maybe what I said wasn't understood correctly. If you're just starting in this pigeon game, I don't care WHAT your pedigrees say, you don't KNOW your birds yet. So, I was saying unless you've got $1500 to flush down the toilet, it doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money on a whim. Spend it on at least a VERY educated guess. If you want to send birds out just to see what they'll do, send a few to a $50 auction race or something. IF they do good, you might win a few hundred dollars. If they don't do good, you've basically just lost a good dinner and a movie....


And you are so very right, as you usually are. 

For us poor working people, this can be a sizeable "Investment". ....

By all means, this should not be considered a lottery ticket. You should have your local teams in place and doing well in Combine competition before you consider these top shelf events. These are some of the very best racing pigeon families coming together in what is sometimes an International event. 

Most pigeon fanciers can go a lifetime and never participate in these kinds of races. It's not for everyone. This is not for "fun", many of these are seasoned professionals, and they are not going to give up easy. I wanted to have said, that at least once in my lifetime, I would get to see my birds in real national type competition. Since I have won or been in the money for several events every year, I have simply "reinvested" into the next years race, and have been blessed to compete in such events again this year. Who knows, if I'm not fortunate enough to win again this year, then I might reinvest in my house next year.  

If your kid either gets braces, or you get to compete in a great One Loft Race event...well........I guess you better go for the braces. 

If on the other hand, you are at that stage in life, where you can afford the luxury of a hobby such as racing pigeons. Then treat yourself, but live within your means. 

If on the other hand, you are looking for an investment option not found in a 401k, and you are an aggressive investor seeking high risk /reward opportunities. Then a loft of choice racing pigeons, and breeding star racers for the One Loft Races, could launch a second career and build fabulous wealth and fame ! This is a "Sport" where people can and do become wealthy from their pigeon racing. Much like horse racing, it's what they call a long shot.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> SmithFamilyLoft: So, is losing 25 birds out of 166, prior to the first training toss, way way too many lost? Is that a sign of poor handling, at a one loft race?


Hello Conditionfreak,

That may be a very reasonable question, but I'm not prepared to publicly put a number on what that magic number just might be. This is after all, a very competitive sport. I'm not exactly sure I want my competition to know how I do my handicapping. And I want to retain and reserve some of my observations for clients of SFL USA. It would be a conflict of interest or something...........well that's the story I'm sticking with.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yea, I fully understand. I regreted asking that after I thought about it for awhile. I don't want to put anyone on the spot or put down anyone. I ain't upset about my bird being lost. Goes with the sport. I was just wondering. I'm learning.

Thanks all.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

conditionfreak said:


> Yea, I fully understand. I regreted asking that after I thought about it for awhile. I don't want to put anyone on the spot or put down anyone. I ain't upset about my bird being lost. Goes with the sport. I was just wondering. I'm learning.
> 
> Thanks all.


Hey, I thought _*I *_ was "learning".


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Winners Cup USA the Gold Standard in One Loft Races*

WHERE THE GOLD STANDARD
ALLOWS YOUR TEAMS GENETIC
POTENTIAL TO BE REALIZED

2008 RACE SCHEDULE

FRIDAY OCT. 3RD, BRAMAN OK. 150 MILES

FRIDAY OCT. 10, NEWTON KS. 225 MILES

FRIDAY OCT. 17, ASSARIA KS. 275 MILES

FRIDAY OCT. 24, BELLVILLE, KS. 350 MILES

Please enter here http://www.winnerscupusa.com/

I have been so impressed with the Winners Cup, that I just had to give them this commercial, for those readers who may be ready to move up to the Gold Standard in One Loft events !

So far, this event has won five stars from my perspective, in terms of communications and 1st class accommodations !! I am just so happy with the way they are running things, that I had to share this with everyone !!

Anyone else here have any birds entered ?


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## kalapati (Aug 29, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> WHERE THE GOLD STANDARD
> ALLOWS YOUR TEAMS GENETIC
> POTENTIAL TO BE REALIZED
> 
> ...




maybe next year i can send some - if i can see some excellent results from my YBs thru my own toss training this year. if not Winners Cup maybe Triple Crown here in San Diego. it's just a couple of miles away from my home. i just want to make sure the YBs my breeders are giving me can at least make it from a hundred miles toss...lol

but i am also a little bit scared though for even the big guy Mike Ganus having all the best breeder birds from europe, i have not seem him scored well in 2006 & 2007 one loft races. has any of you noticed any 1st place birds from him these past 2 years?



kalapati
San Diego
http://loftdekalapati.mypets.ws:81/Jview.htm


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Okay. Now both of the birds I entered in a one loft race are listed as lost. One before training started and one upon the first 50 mile toss. I don't understand. I have a dozen birds and have had them about that far and lost none. The one loft race I entered lost 25% of the birds entered before the first training toss and after the first fifty mile toss, has lost an additional 15%. For a grand total of a 40 percent loss ratio after one fifty mile toss. Am I that good or is the one loft race manager that bad? I live just 60 miles from the one loft race location, so the weather is the same. I think that those types of losses are way over the top. I know I could do better and I am not a seasoned pro or anything close to it. Am I wrong? Do I just not have the experience to understand all of the things that can and do go wrong? These are birds that people from all over the country have paid shipping charges, perch fees and entry fees, so they probably did send some decent birds. I know that I did. I delivered my birds in person and toured the facility and was satisfied with the loft, etc. But I still think that a loss of 40 percent, just out to fifty miles is...............well, let's just say that something is terribly wrong IMO. I have nest mates of my lost birds here, and they come home to me strong and quick.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

conditionfreak said:


> Okay. Now both of the birds I entered in a one loft race are listed as lost. One before training started and one upon the first 50 mile toss. I don't understand. I have a dozen birds and have had them about that far and lost none. The one loft race I entered lost 25% of the birds entered before the first training toss and after the first fifty mile toss, has lost an additional 15%. For a grand total of a 40 percent loss ratio after one fifty mile toss. Am I that good or is the one loft race manager that bad? I live just 60 miles from the one loft race location, so the weather is the same. I think that those types of losses are way over the top. I know I could do better and I am not a seasoned pro or anything close to it. Am I wrong? Do I just not have the experience to understand all of the things that can and do go wrong? These are birds that people from all over the country have paid shipping charges, perch fees and entry fees, so they probably did send some decent birds. I know that I did. I delivered my birds in person and toured the facility and was satisfied with the loft, etc. But I still think that a loss of 40 percent, just out to fifty miles is...............well, let's just say that something is terribly wrong IMO. I have nest mates of my lost birds here, and they come home to me strong and quick.



Sadly, this is the way it goes with futurities and one loft races. It's pretty much a gamble because not only do you NOT KNOW without a doubt that the bird or birds you are sending are the best of the best, (pedigree and past performance doesn't mean that THIS bird is THE ONE) but you also have no idea how the birds are treated, fed, trained, etc...........AND you have no idea what birds will be housed with yours, where they're from, whether they're sick, or not............just SO many things that you have no control over. 
Our club held a futurity a few years ago. Two of the birds that I had in my loft were from a $1500 stock pair. Believe me, I heard ALL ABOUT how good these birds had been...........one of them went and sat in a tree on the first training toss and never made it home. The other died in my loft. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=7936
The breeder of these birds gave me hell and called me everything he could think of. I lost a few birds like we always do but no other birds died and I didn't have any other bird go sit in a tree 1 mile from home and never make it back. HE might have thought he was sending the best he had and the background of the birds may have shown that he was making a good choice.....but I don't think those two birds were quite up to par for whatever reason. 
If it was a simple as brothers/sisters of good birds being good birds, we could all just breed from 3 or 4 pairs and raise 15 or 20 birds and call it a day. The chances of breeding a good one when the records show the genes are there go up, but it's certainly not guaranteed.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Of course, you are correct. There is no sure fire way to know. Even if a specific bird wins a race, that bird may not ever come close again, and many race winners never produce anything of great value. Additionally, some lousy racing birds can produce great young racers. We have all heard the stories. Yet, people spend hundreds and even tens of thousands on birds, for breeding speculation.

I guess my point is that, my two birds may have not "had it", but is it possible that so many birds from other top notch flyers don't "have it"? Yes, it is possible and yes, spit happens. Still, I forsee only half of the entered birds actually racing the actual race, and that is the stated goal of the manager of the race. Half as a goal? Shouldn't the goal be all? Unrealistic of course, but still it should be the goal. I wonder if there is a way to ascertain the percentages of birds entered in the big time one loft races, that actually end up in the race (or first race)?

Just as a side question. How did you know that the bird was in a tree a mile away? I find that interesting. Was it a fluke that you saw it? Was it a certain color? Just curious.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

conditionfreak said:


> Just as a side question. How did you know that the bird was in a tree a mile away? I find that interesting. Was it a fluke that you saw it? Was it a certain color? Just curious.


I was the one who took the birds that morning. I let them out of the crate and this bird flew a few hundred feet and landed in a tree. I threw a stick at him, thinking he would get up while the flock was still in sight, but he just flew a little further and landed in another tree. I jumped in the car, flew home, got my seed can and drove back down to shake it and try to get him to go home. When I got back, he was no where to be seen and I never saw him again.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*No "Consumer Report" type information is available...*



conditionfreak said:


> Okay. Now both of the birds I entered in a one loft race are listed as lost. One before training started and one upon the first 50 mile toss. I don't understand. I have a dozen birds and have had them about that far and lost none. The one loft race I entered lost 25% of the birds entered before the first training toss and after the first fifty mile toss, has lost an additional 15%. For a grand total of a 40 percent loss ratio after one fifty mile toss. Am I that good or is the one loft race manager that bad? I live just 60 miles from the one loft race location, so the weather is the same. I think that those types of losses are way over the top. I know I could do better and I am not a seasoned pro or anything close to it. Am I wrong? Do I just not have the experience to understand all of the things that can and do go wrong? These are birds that people from all over the country have paid shipping charges, perch fees and entry fees, so they probably did send some decent birds. I know that I did. I delivered my birds in person and toured the facility and was satisfied with the loft, etc. But I still think that a loss of 40 percent, just out to fifty miles is...............well, let's just say that something is terribly wrong IMO. I have nest mates of my lost birds here, and they come home to me strong and quick.


Hello ConditionFreak,

Unfortunately, there is no "Consumer Report" available to rate these various events. It is only through trial and error, and word of mouth, that we have to go on. There are also no standards or certifications we can rely on. Anybody or their brother can fashion some kind of a coop in their back yard, and start a One Loft event. Some of them are really quite poor handlers, who really don't have any idea what they are doing, in my humble opinion. I sometimes wonder if our breeding programs should be more geared to producing a bird which can survive the mistakes of these amateurs.

Sometimes some of these operations are geared to do the job "cheap" in order to increase profits. Without standards or some way to judge the ability of the handlers of these events, how does one go about figuring this all out ?I don't have the answer, but a loss of 40% is a pretty good indication to me, that the manager of this event, does not know what he is doing. I would vote with my feet, and not support them in the future.

There are any number of issues that I think should be looked at. Not the least is, transparency. Just one tiny example is how the release is handled. I was involved in a particular One Loft event, where the son in law who was not a pigeon guy, drove the truck by himself to the release point and dumped them out. No witnesses, no cameras, no way of knowing what took place. Were the birds watered ? Was a bird released early ? In this particular event, there was only a single day bird, who won $32000+, and when the bird arrived back he was quickly hidden away and was not shown to anyone. My loft manager who was with me, suspected that to have done so, would have shown that the bird did not fly all day. May come to a surprize to some people, but for $32000, some people will even steal and cheat. When I asked why the release point was not made public, so observers could be present, I was told if I don't like the way things are done, to go elsewhere, which of course I did. 

Unless or untill, some outside agency or party, regulates or oversees the conditions of such events, then I think it is going to be pretty much "buyer beware".


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Hello ConditionFreak,
> 
> Unfortunately, there is no "Consumer Report" available to rate these various events. It is only through trial and error, and word of mouth, that we have to go on. There are also no standards or certifications we can rely on. Anybody or their brother can fashion some kind of a coop in their back yard, and start a One Loft event. Some of them are really quite poor handlers, who really don't have any idea what they are doing, in my humble opinion. I sometimes wonder if our breeding programs should be more geared to producing a bird which can survive the mistakes of these amateurs.
> 
> ...



Well that sucks, BUT, I'M not surprised at all. I would expect this kind of thing goes on more than we'll ever know.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren. You make a lot of sense and obviously you are wise in the ways of the world. I am a retired cop and I also understand what people will do for money. Some will do just about anything. The first time I ever even heard of a one loft race or futurity race, I immediately thought of the things you mentioned and more.

I also collect old comic books (the expensive ones you hear about on the news sometimes, from the 40's, 50's and 60's) and a few years back a business started whereupon an independent party (company) would "certify" the condition and non-restoration of old comic books. This was the result of people adding color touch to a book to make it look better, or stating that a given book was in "Very Fine" condition when it was only in "Very Good" condition. This "condition" makes a huge difference in the books value.

I mention all of this because I believe that you are on to something with your statement 

"Unless or untill, some outside agency or party, regulates or oversees the conditions of such events, then I think it is going to be pretty much "buyer beware".

I believe that for money such as is possible in these one loft races, two or three individuals could start a "company" whereupon for a few hundred dollars, one or more of them would oversee a release and "certify the release" as true and correct. Some of "you (not "you" Warren) experienced fellows that have had to give up birds due to illness or other reasons, could start something like this. Just a thought.

Of course, then we would be discussing the relationships between certain flyers and the "certifiers", so I guess it is a vicious circle. Heck, even the Olympics have problems and controversy, and they spend milions if not billions on attempts to get it right. So maybe it is just too spread out to control.

I do like the idea I have though. The comic book company is making a fortune certifying books for collectors, as "true and correct" and not messed with books. They are called CGC (Comics Guarantee Corporation) and have branched out to include other items, such as photographs and coins being original and unaltered, etc.

I tell you. The next time I enter a one loft race, it will be after much investigation along the lines of percentages, rumors and personal recommendations, boiling down to final "results".


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

*My 2007 One Loft Race Dashboard*

Looking for feedback on this article and whether you think I should submit it to the Digest.


http://www.irishsyndicatelofts.com/OneLoftSurvey.html


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

irishsyndicate said:


> Looking for feedback on this article and whether you think I should submit it to the Digest.
> 
> 
> http://www.irishsyndicatelofts.com/OneLoftSurvey.html



Darn......Irish Syndicate, I really would like to read your article, but I don't know if it is my new computer system, or just me, I am not able to open the link on your site. 

If your article was a survey as the title suggests, it might be a starting point. But, I am not sure, that a survey alone would address some of the shortcomings that have become apparent with One Loft events. One tiny example might be, are the birds watered prior to a training or race release ? And then, how do we know that they are for sure ? If the results of any survey is based on information provided in part by the operators, how do we know what the true facts are ? 

Any reporting system, is only as good as the methods used to collect the data. The real challenge as I see it, is how to collect data in such a way, which is not biased, or able to be tampered with ? Developing a real "Consumer Report" type of model, would in my opinion, require on site inspections by an independent 3rd party, with various safeguards in place in insure honest reporting. 

I suspect that your article is attempting to provide a ray of sunshine on these issues, and if that is the case, I applaud your efforts. There needs to be some efforts made to oversee this aspect of our sport, right now it's the wild..wild...west with anything goes.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Warren, do you have Microsoft Word on your computer? If not, that's probably why you can't open it because it's a Word document.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Okay. The one loft race I entered two birds in is done with the first of two races. Out of 166 birds entered, a total of 65 birds actually made it to the first race, with one bird being held back due to injury. So, out of 166 birds entered, 100 birds were lost prior to the first race being held.

I will not be entering any more birds in this particular one loft race. I find these percentages unacceptable. I say this knowing that someone might take offense, but I feel confident in my thinking that this is way overboard in losses.

I have only 15 flyers myself (plus 12 prisoners) and have not lost one, flying many times out to 50 miles. I have not been further as of yet. I am preparing to race next year and not this year. I do have one bird that I had to amputate her banded leg, so she is unable to race (no band), but is doing well and is welcome to stay and play.

I recently had my first encounter with a Red Tail Hawk. I opened the landing board aviary doors to let my birds out and as they were just starting to fly off from the board, a hawk dove down to the landing board and attempted to snatch one. The hawk did not get one and immediately flew off as my birds scattered. Some of my birds flew way off and returned cautiously and hour or so later. Three of them hid under my loft, on the ground. All are home and safe.

Funny thing was, I was just feet from the loft and the hawk didn't seem to care I was there at all. He seemed to come from out of a tree in my yard, so he was probably just sitting there watching. I now put a fake large owl (horned owl?) on a pole near my loft, when the birds are out flying. The pigeons do not seem to care about the owl, but I haven't seen the hawk since, although for many years, I have spotted one just about a half mile down the road from my home, on many occasions.

I read somewhere that if you put the fake owl out ONLY when your birds are flying, and take it down when they are not, that it may help keep the hawks away. So far, so good, after two weeks.

Back to the One Loft Race. I still intend to enter some, but will be more selective, instead of just what is nearby.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

okay..... very good point... hope to send some next year for a snowbirds classic..... i did test my young birds today to 130 miles they flew for two hours and 20 min. first one that came home is a bird that i bougth the breeder from the pet store the one i bougth from i pegion auction with peds are half an hour late  i dont know whats wrong with this birds their soo slow they came from a so called reputable breeder in texas... i guess you cant trust anybody when comes to money...


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

bloodlines_365 said:


> okay..... very good point... hope to send some next year for a snowbirds classic..... i did test my young birds today to 130 miles they flew for two hours and 20 min. first one that came home is a bird that i bougth the breeder from the pet store the one i bougth from i pegion auction with peds are half an hour late  i dont know whats wrong with this birds their soo slow they came from a so called reputable breeder in texas... i guess you cant trust anybody when comes to money...


Don't be too quick to judge. Pedigree don't fly races, pigeons do, and even the birds on these auction sites that go for tens of thousands of dollars produce more duds than champs. If it were simply a matter of spending high dollars to produce champions, then everyone would have a loft full of them. There are a million factors that go into producing top notch pigeons. I am finding that out the hard way. When the birds don't perform the way I hoped there are a ton more factors that are my fault then the quality of the birds.

Now, after several years of poor results, then it might be the time to look into different stock, but until you are sure that your management and training skills are honed to the maximum, I wouldn't go blaming the birds. Of course, that is just my opinion. Good luck moving forward! Learning is all part of the game.

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

bloodlines_365 said:


> okay..... very good point... hope to send some next year for a snowbirds classic..... i did test my young birds today to 130 miles they flew for two hours and 20 min. first one that came home is a bird that i bougth the breeder from the pet store the one i bougth from i pegion auction with peds are half an hour late  i dont know whats wrong with this birds their soo slow they came from a so called reputable breeder in texas... i guess you cant trust anybody when comes to money...


 
I think Learning makes some very valid points with his post. 

The birds you puchased, regardless of the pedigree, could be junk. On the other hand, you may have failed as a handler, and the best birds in the world, in weak hands, may do very poorly in training and racing.

There are so many things which could account for the birds arriving home late. It's hard to know where to begin, the first place I would suspect, would be their health......just my two cents.


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## bloodlines_365 (Jan 15, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I think Learning makes some very valid points with his post.
> 
> The birds you puchased, regardless of the pedigree, could be junk. On the other hand, you may have failed as a handler, and the best birds in the world, in weak hands, may do very poorly in training and racing


okay... could be it ....but i breed a few birds on those line they where just slow and some of them are lost ... in short their junk as what you said... what i"ve learned is never buy a birds without feeling it.. and the breeder that i brougth from the pet store it turn out be good as it can be i trace the owner and it belong one of the best flyer in fvc valley california and most of his breeder birds are import. i did talk to him about his birds and shock... and he told me that they came from a good breeder but the offspring are not good flyer that why they end up on th pets store.. i purchase some of the females to breed too...


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

Try the link again... I put it in html instead of Microsoft Word ....

Great feedback already! If a one loft manager cannot be trusted with providing accurate inventory or other updates, it makes no sense to even enter his race !!!

http://www.irishsyndicatelofts.com/files/My_One_2007_Loft_Race_Dashboard.htm



SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Darn......Irish Syndicate, I really would like to read your article, but I don't know if it is my new computer system, or just me, I am not able to open the link on your site.
> 
> If your article was a survey as the title suggests, it might be a starting point. But, I am not sure, that a survey alone would address some of the shortcomings that have become apparent with One Loft events. One tiny example might be, are the birds watered prior to a training or race release ? And then, how do we know that they are for sure ? If the results of any survey is based on information provided in part by the operators, how do we know what the true facts are ?
> 
> ...


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

irishsyndicate said:


> Try the link again... I put it in html instead of Microsoft Word ....
> 
> Great feedback already! If a one loft manager cannot be trusted with providing accurate inventory or other updates, it makes no sense to even enter his race !!!
> 
> http://www.irishsyndicatelofts.com/files/My_One_2007_Loft_Race_Dashboard.htm


Worked great for me this time. The One Geek Squad is coming this evening to assess my computer situation. Thank you for posting this again.

I agree with your point that accuate inventory and updates should be a no brainer, but you and I could provide a list of where that is not the case. I can appreciate why some people are attracted to "Cheap" events, thinking they are somehow saving money. I just don't think they offer any value, in spite of a cheap price. I am reminded of some tire retreads I purchased many years ago, paid $25 each, thinking I had gotten a great bargain....within 3,000 miles they were shot and left me sitting a few times. Turned out to be the most expensive tires I ever purchased. 

Your charts would of course be more valuable if the names of the One Loft Events were attached, but you and I both know what kind of hot potato that one would be. And it would lessen the likelyhood of being published. People may say they want the truth...but, they often can't handle the truth. 

I think your article may just open the discussion, of what people have been wispering about. It's a small world out there, and many people, myself included, really don't relish the idea of stepping on some toes, even if some of them should be stepped on.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

irishsyndicate said:


> Try the link again... I put it in html instead of Microsoft Word ....
> 
> Great feedback already! If a one loft manager cannot be trusted with providing accurate inventory or other updates, it makes no sense to even enter his race !!!
> 
> http://www.irishsyndicatelofts.com/files/My_One_2007_Loft_Race_Dashboard.htm


http://padutchclassic.com/downloads/300PaDutch08.pdf 


Here you go Steve. I had a couple birds in this race with my loft manager Lew Burns. It was never really clear how many birds were actually shipped to the Pa. Dutch Classic. At one point I thought they claimed 300...but by some early training tosses they were down to 200. Then by the last race, there were only 134 birds, and at the end of the race only 41 birds remained. What kind of stats would this race event have ?

With these kinds of losses, I would have to think that one would have to question the loft design and construction, the system, the training, and the management....some of the above ?...or all of the above ? Cell towers, sun spots, trainers flying to New Jersey, etc. etc. will only explain so much...don't you think ? The fact that two of our three birds even ended up on race sheet with the other 34 birds at the end of the 300 Mile race, may have been a major accomblishment on the part of our birds.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

A further update on the one loft I entered. 166 birds entered. 65 made it to the first of two races.

Fifty made it to the second race and only the top five have been posted. The race results have not yet been posted and the race was held 5 days ago. The operator of the race states that it was a smash race and few birds made it home at all, and that he will post the results as soon as he can (????). He also states that he has mailed out the winners their monies already. Yet, no official results posted completely yet. He has posted on his web site that he has learned several things from this experience. Me too.

I should mention that this second race was held up for several days awaiting good weather to do the race.

Meanwhile, I live near this one loft race and I have lost two of my fifteen birds thus far, presumably to predator birds. I have trained more extensively than the one loft race records show. I also have someone else's bird that stopped at my loft for a rest, and it is still here and flying freely. I contacted the owner (not involved in the one loft race) and he asked me to take care of it for awhile and "toss" it. I did. I released it from forty miles away, alone, and it came back to my loft. Now, it lives here. I have tossed it twice thus far. I think that she is a "spy"


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2008)

lol maybe this will only help to strengthen your loft even if its with an outside liniage , they seem to help other lofts as well as a godsend so as they say that which does not kill you makes you stronger so put it to work for you  and enjoy the benifits as well  the way of the jedi pigeon is apon you so use it well


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

> I think that she is a "spy"


That's funny.....


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## irishsyndicate (Sep 19, 2008)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> http://padutchclassic.com/downloads/300PaDutch08.pdf
> 
> 
> Here you go Steve. I had a couple birds in this race with my loft manager Lew Burns. It was never really clear how many birds were actually shipped to the Pa. Dutch Classic. At one point I thought they claimed 300...but by some early training tosses they were down to 200. Then by the last race, there were only 134 birds, and at the end of the race only 41 birds remained. What kind of stats would this race event have ?
> ...




Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,

There is a direct correlation with the above and whether or not to enter a one loft race....

My list is getting smaller and smaller..... For 2008, I am doing it differently. No statistics, I am publishing a list of ALL the negatives to avoid without calling names (as usual).


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

conditionfreak said:


> Thanks all. I just used the 500 as an example. I did enter two in a 125 dollar race and one is lost. So, I still have hope. They are out of my best, but I only have a 6 pair of breeders and this is my first ever one loft race, and my first year in the sport for over twenty five years. It will be very dissapointing if the other bird never gets into a race.
> 
> Thanks again.


 Hi Conditionfreak,Most of these one loft races have a perch fee that you submit when you ship the birds to the handler.After the birds have been trained just pryor to the race you are asked to pay another fee to send the bird to the race. I feel that you might be in for a supprise and may have to come up with another 200 or so dollars. The first 125 is used to pay for feeding ,training, shots ect.On top of this they will ask you to pool you bird and that can cost a few hundred more.There is one other thing the handler of the race takes 10 to15% of all the money that goes thru the race.In any event its buyer beware. READ THE FINE PRINT .GEORGE


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

irishsyndicate said:


> Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
> Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
> Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
> Basketing lists, accurate inventory updates,
> ...


 Just to add a few more, go onto the aforemention One Loft event, and try to figure out how much capital money was collected ? What were the pay outs ? The race was a couple of weeks ago, and no communication was given as to what our 6th place win was worth in the last 350 mile race. In fact, the web site has removed all references to the races already, focused instead on getting money for 2009 !  Unbelieveable ! Where's our money !?!

I had restrained my words before, because it's a small world out there, and the guy is part of the UPC combine in which we fly. But, this was so mismanaged, as to defy the imagination. There was no transparency, and what little tiny bit there was, has been removed so as to avoid allowing future participants the possibility of putting two and two together. The "rumor" is that the 1st place payout on the last big race was so small, it wouldn't even have covered the perch and entry fee of the winning bird !!! Now, the word is, he may be a bit short of cash, and is having issues shipping the birds back to the owners. Excuses about the post office only letting him ship out on Monday's etc. etc.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Just to add a few more, go onto the aforemention One Loft event, and try to figure out how much capital money was collected ? What were the pay outs ? The race was a couple of weeks ago, and no communication was given as to what our 6th place win was worth in the last 350 mile race. *In fact, the web site has removed all references to the races already, focused instead on getting money for 2009 !  Unbelieveable !* Where's our money !?!
> 
> I had restrained my words before, because it's a small world out there, and the guy is part of the UPC combine in which we fly. But, this was so mismanaged, as to defy the imagination. There was no transparency, and what little tiny bit there was, has been removed so as to avoid allowing future participants the possibility of putting two and two together. The "rumor" is that the 1st place payout on the last big race was so small, it wouldn't even have covered the perch and entry fee of the winning bird !!! Now, the word is, he may be a bit short of cash, and is having issues shipping the birds back to the owners. Excuses about the post office only letting him ship out on Monday's etc. etc.



http://padutchclassic.com/training2008.html


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well then...perhaps I spoke to soon. I had not looked at it real recently. And if you use AOL, that creates some issues. However, if the "normal" person, perhaps not someone like me....starts at the home page:

http://padutchclassic.com/index.html

You may see why I had difficulty navagating to the various race reports. Since the capital entry fee was $300 per bird x's 135 = $40,500 total capital pool. Not sure how the below listed numbers work out for three races. I suspect that the below listed numbers are the totals for three races. Which would mean you would have to divide those numbers by three ? I can hardly wait for the check for $208.63 ! 

At any rate, perhaps the check is "In the Mail"  


08 Classic Race Payouts

Payouts were based on the 135 paid and activated birds. 
1st 22,275 
2nd 8,910 
3rd 2,430 
4th-14th 625.90


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