# Roller - what colour?



## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

I haven't bred this colour before. I was thinking it might be a dirty mealy?? if there is such a thing. The cock is a mealy split for spread and the hen a dirty blue bar. The nest mate is a dirty blue bar.

Thanks,

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

From looking I would say Ash red bar, Dirty aswell, maybe roller bronze to help richen up the red.

So basically what you said, Dirty Mealy


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks Evan,

It is a very pretty bird, Neibel Roller.

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is another picture of this young bird.








The nest mate is the dirty blue bar on the left.


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

The cock is a mealy split for spread? Since when has that been possible?!?


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Have a look at some of the threads I've posted previously - mealy/ spread cock, there has been quite a few and a far bit of discussion. I have two cock birds, father and son, that look like mealies but produce spread young. Results of last season confirmed this season with different hens. The first round siblings of these two (the son) were both blacks - I think I put up a thread with pictures of them. The father that has produced many rounds of lavenders and blacks has this round produced a blue bar and a mealy. I put up a thread of them also due to all the earlier discussions. The Pigeon Genetics calculator has "Spread Split". When I play around with the calculator with my birds I can get the results I am getting by selecting Spread Split for the cock rather than Spread which only blacks and spread ash. I know little about all this but am breeding the various colours/ factors.

Here is a round with a black.








Here is the round with a mealy and blue bar.








Here is another round of blacks.








This bird is one from last season and typical of the lavenders they breed









John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Here are a couple more....


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

The statement " mealy cockbird split for spread ?" is a little off, Although the spread is hardly showing on this bird in technical terms he is spread - its just not visible in the birds phenotype. I get what you mean but generally a bird cannot be split for a dominant gene.


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

Spread split just means the bird is heterozygous for spread and not homozygous spread


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes but I am just saying a bird cannot usually be split for spread without it showing.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

ljb107 said:


> The cock is a mealy split for spread? Since when has that been possible?!?





ljb107 said:


> Spread split just means the bird is heterozygous for spread and not homozygous spread


Now I am confused, your two posts contradict each other.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan,

All the discussions we've had about this cock and all his spread young and now I get a blue bar and a mealy. This is what I mean't "the bird is heterozygous for spread and not homozygous spread" (but I was unsure if this applied to spread)My lavender hens are also producing spread and normal young.

Is it possible I could eventually breed a spread ash bird the colour of the dirty mealy (if you know what I mean).

Thanks,

John


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

johnbt said:


> Evan,
> 
> All the discussions we've had about this cock and all his spread young and now I get a blue bar and a mealy. This is what I mean't "the bird is heterozygous for spread and not homozygous spread" (but I was unsure if this applied to spread)My lavender hens are also producing spread and normal young.
> 
> ...


 Hi John, I have been very intrested in what you and Evan have been talking about in the last few posts on this subject,so I have done some reading on the subject. I find that Sell in his book Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons,points out in his book that the modifier MILKY is used with Spread in order to create Lavender in the Lahore breed, it is also used with spread to produce the Powdered blue in the Fantail breed.I wonder if you might have some of your spread birds that are carring Milky? I have never worked with spread except with my Indigo's to produce Andalusion and I am about to start on a project to introduce Extreme Dilute in the Andalusion's which carriy the spread factor. 
GEORGE


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

None of these birds look to have milly, Lavender can be created solely using ash red spread on bar or barless, which I think is the case here.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I would say dirty ash-red but knowing your birds, this one could be spread too. You'll have to pair it to a blue and see what happens.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

George, by lavender I think he meant spread ash-red, not milky black as in Lahore lavender...


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I would say dirty ash-red but knowing your birds, this one could be spread too. You'll have to pair it to a blue and see what happens.


Could be? One for next season. It's an usual colour and I do like it. Third round eggs starting to hatch another dozen young ones in a day or so.

Thanks,

John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Beckys right, It could well be spread. 

Another dozen.... I'm envious, I have 20 young racers taking up all my time so only got a few rollers and serbians to add to the flying kits this year. 

I have a kit of 3 just starting to roll, Might keep them in their own kit loft as they are all acting like cockbirds, they only starting flying properley about a week ago so have high hopes, the wee blue bar goes over 3 or 4 times but they are still flying low so have set them up with the serbians a few times to get some height, Helped today. I get nervous when they fly low but my problem is I cannot call them down as I reserve the feed calls for the racebirds. The rollers and serbians land and trap when they want, Usually within 10 mins of landing but sometimes they take their time on a nice sunny day.


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

George, not a lot of input on my part. I just ask the questions and Rudoph, Evan and Mary have the answers. Last year I was competely lost. This year a little less lost, being able to pair the birds and getting the young I wanted is very helpful. I've just about run out of what I can do with my few colours and factors. I still need to breed some recessive reds and would like some mottles. I will do this after this round as I will split the birds up and try some different pairings. I want to do well in the shows and have the best marked birds around. The show sections are a bit limited for performing rollers. I have some very nice mealies and blue bars now, but the show section is only for "any bar" for example. Same for checkers. Last year I breed a nice mealy hen that won best of the breed. She was the only mealy I had. I kept her for breeding. She is paired to a red checker, I think I have one mealy young from her this season but have breed another 4 from other pairs. They are all lovely birds, nice colours, evenly marked with white heads and flights. Next year I'll pair up the best pair of mealies and will have a little more control over the results, all mealies and blue bars. I'll do the same with my blue bars and red and blue checkers. All the other colours, spread ash, red and blue bar and checker grizzles, torts, mottles etc have to go into "any other colour" as these sections aren't catered for. Red/ yellows and blacks are separate sections. I don't have any yellow birds hence trying for some recessive red young from the only red hen I have. I have many blacks now. I also need to pair my birds so that I get cocks and hens of each colour. In another season I will also have old birds to show as well as young birds. I will end up with old and young birds, cocks and hens to cover all sections. The best young I lock up for showing/ breeding the rest are being flown. I would love to fly them all but at these stage I'm not prepared to risk losing them or feeding them to the hawks/ falcons.

John


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Evan, I'm having a good season (too good if you ask my wife). Last year I had four pairs. This season I am breeding with my original birds and selected young birds I bred last year, 11 pairs.
I paired up seven pairs on the same day at the start of the season. All the hens laid within a day of each other. I raised 13 young from these seven clutches (one infertile egg). These seven pairs then all laid their second round within a day of each other when their first round young were about 12 days old. This just goes on and on. I am taking the young away for weaning and training about 10 days before the next round hatches.

I new at all this but see this as good because I have heap of young ones the same age for training and I will be able to stop breeding sooner and not have to keep cleaning all these breeding cages.

At the moment I have a kit of sixteen first round young in training and flying for about 45 minutes each afternoon. They are starting to roll now. I have another kit of weaners of 14 birds that I am trap training also.There are another 12 or 14 little ones in nests also. Once these birds are flying I'll move the stronger birds into the first kit. I plan to breed two kits of about 25 birds in each and probably put another 10 maybe away to showing. It is good when you come home from work and check the birds and 10 or 12 young ones have all hatched together. 

Based on the problems I had with the falcons and overflies earlier in the year I am expected that come breeding season next year I will be down to one kit.

As well as breeding for showing I am doing my best to get good rollers in the air. I get some great help and advice from a world cup flyer of many years from Arizona. It just happens that he is here in Brisbane at the moment. I picked him up from the airport when he arrived and he comes over to my place every now and again to watch my birds. He's been here for a few months now. I have been very fortunate, it would have taken me 100 years of mistakes to maybe learn what he can tell me in an afternoon.

John


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## Painted Skies Loft (Sep 24, 2012)

It looks like a red bar to me... your birds are nice looking


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Now I am confused, your two posts contradict each other.


No, they don't. The split i was talking about on the 2nd comment was about the genetics calculator as that calls heterozygous 'split'.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I generally refer to split as being, wildtype split any recessive gene. It does apply the same when you say spread split wildtype but because the spread is showing the bird is technically not split for spread, it is spread split for wild type.

I am being real picky here about the terminology but just wanted to clear that up, I took from your first post that you were saying spread split is impossible but now I wonder where you say Mealy split spread is impossible?


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## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I prefer not to use the term 'split' since it can get confusing, especially when talking about dominant genes. The correct terminology is to use heterozygous / homozygous.

Calling it heterozygous spread, makes the meaning entirely clear, while most people get confused when you say spread split for wild-type. If all else fails, write S//+ or S//s+


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## johnbt (Sep 17, 2010)

Rudolph, heterozygous spread makes sense to me. One question though, do birds that are heterozygous spread generally show it? Like my lavender hens that produce spread and normal patterned/ coloured young.
John


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeap, Rudolph makes sense as always.

John, Yes your birds are rare, spread is dominant so if they carry it the show it. Ash red does allow for variance but not as much as seen in your birds


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## ljb107 (Apr 15, 2007)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I generally refer to split as being, wildtype split any recessive gene. It does apply the same when you say spread split wildtype but because the spread is showing the bird is technically not split for spread, it is spread split for wild type.
> 
> I am being real picky here about the terminology but just wanted to clear that up, I took from your first post that you were saying spread split is impossible but now I wonder where you say Mealy split spread is impossible?


You're just confusing yourself.

I normally only talk about split when referring to genetics in cage birds when a bird is carrying a mutation that can't be seen.

I was only quoting from the genetics calculator that the op was using as it uses the term split (when the bird isn't really 'split' for spread, it is just heterozygous for the gene). Have another read through everything


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