# "Avitrol" advice? - Urgent



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all, 


Just got one in...typicaly delerium, thrashing, panting, intermitant severe spasms, unceasing tremors...full Crop, but the Seeds feel dry.

Anyway, looks like 'Avitrol' to me. Smells like it to.


I did some fast 'googles' seeing if anything new has been posted antidote-wise, and nothing, so far as I could find.


Any ideas?


Seince the Seeds feel 'dry' I am thinking to see if I can get them out by holding him upside down and gently massaging his Crop for them to expell.

I have never done this before, but I can not think of anything else to try.


Anyway, anyone had any luck with this? or anything else for these?


Thanks,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

pdpbison said:


> Seince the Seeds feel 'dry' I am thinking to see if I can get them out by holding him upside down and gently massaging his Crop for them to expell.
> 
> I have never done this before, but I can not think of anything else to try.
> 
> ...


That would be my choice of treatment .. try to get the tainted seed/grain out of the crop ASAP. Once you've gotten out what you can, then I would syringe/tube some water and "dump" that out also. Following that .. lots and lots of fluids to try and flush things out.

Terry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*Avitrol info*

Phil, I hope this will help. 
______________________________________________________
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20176&page=3
From a post that Jazaroo sent Draykie about 6 weeks ago

.........In the package I sent you sometime ago, there was a tube/syringe for tube feeding. You will need this to administer the *activated charcoal *to help bind up the poison they are going to use, most likely Avitrol.

You can purchase two things you will need at the health foods store. One is *Activated charcoal *such as this: http://tinyurl.com/rdora, and the other is *Benonite Clay* such as this: http://tinyurl.com/26uaq2 .

You can mix the two into a slurry using a little water and then administer 5cc and do this every few hours. 


Here is some additional information, it is not on Avitrol, but the same principles apply. http://tinyurl.com/2fjlyz

(from Jazaroo)
________________________________________________

And here is some chemical info on Avitrol that I posted back in April on another thread.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=20238&page=2

Chemical name
4-AMINOPYRIDINE Chloride (Avitrol)

Avitrol's FAQ sheet
http://www.avitrol.com/GrainFAQ/inde...with Avitrol

An *MSDS (Materials safety data sheet) on Avitrol*. 
http://www.plunketts.net/avitrol-m.pdf

Here's an html version of a lengthy avitrol document published by NJ govt. A lot of it is standard boilerplate text with Avitrol substituted in for the chemical name, but some is unique to this chemical. Pyridines are not nice. The pdf version is easier to read but on my dial-up takes forever!!!

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=9&gl=us

_________________________________________________________________________
The MSDS sheet should have info on what to do in case of accidental poisoning. I can't read it now as my Adobe Acrobat reader has crashed. As this is a hydrocarbon derivative, the usual precautions should apply. 

Like you stated there is nothing much new as far as antidotes/treatments -- just evacuate the crop and then clean out with water, water, water, and then some of the activated charcoal. 


Good luck.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Yes .. activated charcoal as posted .. but whatever you do needs to be fairly quick to try and stop the poison from getting into the system.

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks everyone...


Been trying off and on to get the Seeds out by Crop manipulaitons with her up-side-down, but no luck.


Very pretty one, I think a Hen...


I have Activated Charcoal, and maybe I can get some in...

I thought "Water" in any combination was a no-no, since it speeds the poison being absorbed, and or will speed a slow and attenuated sub-lethal rate, into being a lethal rate...so, I have always with-held Water for these Avitrol Pigeons when I get them.

So, if I am afraid to administer Water, I do not know how I could get the Charcoal in to her Crop.

I could 'Seed-Pop' it I suppose, I will have to see...I think what I have are Capsules full of powder...and these would not work well for that, since they would need lots of Water to dissolve the Capsules..


I have been keeping her in my shirt-front, as I mostly sit doing various things one can do sitting, where it is easy for my to have my hand on her if she starts thraching, and this seems to have kept her much more calm...but the 'spells' come and go regardless.

I also warpped a really COLD can of Coke in a paper towell and had it next to her, one side, then the other, respective Wing over it, and this seemed to calm her down a good deal...having something cold like that to be next to.

It was just a hunch, but it seems to help as far as these 'spells'...


I did call the 'Avitrol' company some while ago and talked with them...andthey sent me a huge amount of tech-data stuff, but it got put into storage when the roof was having all those leaking problems.

I will check the links above which flitznowzoom provided...

Thanks flitz!


Fingers crossed...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...sigh...


Lost her around 11:00 O'Clock P.M.

Had her in my shirt front, overall she was just siting easy there and the threashing had deminished to only some occasional brief episodes and overall she was comfortable and easy with things and I kept looking in on her every few minutes.

Anyway, looked in on her and she had expired quietly with nary a sign.

Oddly, a result of the poison appearently, it was as if rigour-mortis had already set in, even though she had been alive only a couple minutes before, she was completely stiff and rigid...even her Toes.

Poor little Hen...


Darn...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...academic now, but I do have a small Bottle of 'Syrup of Ipecac', which I bought on some previous occasion and have never tried.


Does anyone have any experience with this as a possible, practical means of having them throw-up such Seeds as they may or could?


Do any of us know whwther this would even work with a Pigeon?


Thanks everyone...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Government Avitrol fact sheet*

Phil,

*US Government Online database of hazardous materials*:

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/5165

Only activated charcoal for Avitrol. 
Emergency response info for use with kids. 

_If _you think your pigeon might have ingested anticoagulant rat poison, then Vitamin K1.

*Avian toxicology* (pdf document)
http://www.michvma.org/documents/MVC Proceedings/Labonde8.pdf

Good luck,

Larry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*I'm so sorry*

Oh, Phil, your sweet little hen  You must have been a comfort to her being there and holding her against the rest of the world. She left on gentle wings.

Feather hugs and tears. 

Mary


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Geez.....I'm so sorry to read of this birds passing, thank you for being there for her Phil.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Phil, I am truly sorry.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

*poison emergency stuff*

Sigh. Avitrol, technical grade, is among the most poisonous of chemicals out there and is extremely hazardous to ALL VERTEBRATE life forms (oh, nice, I suppose the cockroaches were still kicking after the lab tests). I was amazed that something this toxic is still available to the public, even in the extremely dilute form that is sold as bird bait. 
When I was searching last night for antidotes (none really, except get the poison out by pumping the stomach (humans) flushing it with water and removing the water -- gastric lavage, I think it's called, then putting in activated charcoal to try and bind what has gone down further in the digestive tract. Use the slurry as recommended by Jazzaroo. 

I suppose that you could substitute "crop" here for stomach. There are a couple of drugs that one link listed that would help control the convulsions without completely depressing the involutary muscles. Some of our more medically-savvy members may be able to weigh in on this. The document went on to say that death usually occurs within 72 hours if it is going to happen. 

Syrup of ipeck has gone out of favor with the medical community, but if you have a bottle, you might want to hang on to it. It will make you throw up until you have the dry heaves so it's pretty good at its intended purpose. They now favor a concentrated salt-water solution to get someone to throw up, but the preferred way is the stomach pump as the poison won't burn sensitive tissues on the way back up, nor get aspirated into the lungs.

Since I've never had to feed a bird or clear its crop, I don't know exactly how you would do it, but I am thinking if you use a syringe for crop feeding, can you reverse the process and syringe the contents back out, or are the seeds too big to come back that way. You may need to get some flexible tygon or other tubing (they sell it at Home Depot in the plumbing section) of different internal/external diameters and see if you can devise something that could be put in an emergency poison kit. Since most of the bait is corn or wheat, you may have to do some experimenting to get something that would work. You can always sleeve thick tubing over thin tubing to get something that will fit over a syringe or other suctioning device at one in and still fit into the bird's esphougus at the other. 
Tygon has the advantage of being clear, flexible, chemically inert, and will not degrade rapidly but you may have to go to a chemical or lab supply house to get something thin-walled enough to work.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeon passed away*

oh Phil,

I am sorry to read just now of her passing. I somehow missed the later posts. At least you made her feel more safe than she would have been out on the street. I don't know if any poisoned creature feels safe at the very end, but everything we can do is worth trying. 

A question for others: would cutting a slit in the skin and the membrane of the crop to physically squeeze out poisoned corn kernels be not too drastic a measure in a case such as this? And closing the slit up afterwards with a drop of cyanoacrylate instant glue? If one were dexterous enough to do such a thing. Just a wild thought. I know Pidgey, if I recall correctly, went into the crop of a pigeon for an emergency and sewed it closed afterwrds, with success.

Larry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Since I've never had to feed a bird or clear its crop, I don't know exactly how you would do it, but I am thinking if you use a syringe for crop feeding, can you reverse the process and syringe the contents back out, or are the seeds too big to come back that way.


I did a limited autopsy (only opened the crop) on an avitrol bird once. He died in my hands on the way to the house from the store that alerted me to it. Given the mass of the crop contents and the size of the grains, I wouldn't mess around--I'd incise the crop in a heartbeat to get the stuff out, about one thumbwidth up from the forward point of the keel. And then I'd flush the crop with water and gavage the charcoal slurry straight to the proventriculus. As bad as that sounds, it's actually the safest way for the bird. Suturing the crop and skin back up of a live bird is much easier to me than digging another grave.

Pidgey


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

I was thinking about cutting into the crop as the best way, but I didn't know if that would cause more problems or if a bird could tolerate that. I'm glad to read that it is a better approach because the idea of syringing something out seemed pretty difficult to me.

I don't know if we have a "sticky" on avitrol/poison but that might be something to consider so we can quickly put our fingers on what we have learned.


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

I'm so sorry the little hen expired. From what you described in your initial post, I think the poison had absorbed enough to be lethal by the time you got her. But I'm sure your care of her made a great difference in her suffering. I'm glad she made her way to you.

I have a friend who does rehabbing. She might have had some experience with Avitrol. I'll ask her.

Margarret


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Sigh. Avitrol, technical grade, is among the most poisonous of chemicals out there and is extremely hazardous to ALL VERTEBRATE life forms (oh, nice, I suppose the cockroaches were still kicking after the lab tests). I was amazed that something this toxic is still available to the public, even in the extremely dilute form that is sold as bird bait.
> When I was searching last night for antidotes (none really, except get the poison out by pumping the stomach (humans) flushing it with water and removing the water -- gastric lavage, I think it's called, then putting in activated charcoal to try and bind what has gone down further in the digestive tract. Use the slurry as recommended by Jazzaroo.
> 
> I suppose that you could substitute "crop" here for stomach. There are a couple of drugs that one link listed that would help control the convulsions without completely depressing the involutary muscles. Some of our more medically-savvy members may be able to weigh in on this. The document went on to say that death usually occurs within 72 hours if it is going to happen.
> ...



Hi flitznowzoom, 


Indeed, a Crop is a sort of Stomach in it's own right, if lacking the digestive functions usually associated...but it is accessable in the same manner as a Mammal Stomach is, with the advantage of it not containing digestive acids of potential harm to tissues when things come back 'up', so...


Yea...the poisoned Seeds I have seen these Pigeons throw up some of, on their own, are usually large kernals of dried Corn...so there is no practical way to try sucking them out with a tube.

In my experience - and I can not say for sure which poisons are 'Avitrol', and which are something else - the Pigeons tend either to die within four or five hours at most ( as this one did) , of my getting them, or, if they make it past that point, they live, and after a few days or a business week, appear fine and are released.


I have seen certainly three distinct syndromes, and three kinds of odor associated with them, but I do not know really which of these is per-se 'Avitrol', even though in haste I titled this thread as being 'Avitrol'.

Most poisoned Pigeons I have seen exhibted the over-vivid intoxications, constant tremors, thrashing or convulsions or both...and were panting...as this one showed, and so I associate these symptoms with those attributed in the literature, with 'Avitrol'.


Some, who had eaten other kinds of poison Seeds, merely 'melted' away with none of the above, and one time I found 26 of them in that state and I was not able to see even one survive the day. These all had a sickening 'burnt' oder...and were dieing at intervals where when I found them many were already perished, and the 26 or so I brought home then perished over about the next six hours or so. This was about 14 years ago.


Thank you for the mentions.


Truely, people poisoning these Birds accomplishes nothing but senseless suffering and death, and whatever roosts or perching areas they were trying to de-populate, merely attract the next group anyway with nothing solved but cruelty, which the poisoners themselves likely never see at all.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Larry_Cologne said:


> oh Phil,
> 
> I am sorry to read just now of her passing. I somehow missed the later posts. At least you made her feel more safe than she would have been out on the street. I don't know if any poisoned creature feels safe at the very end, but everything we can do is worth trying.
> 
> ...


Hi Larry, 

Thank you.

Crop wise, yes...as an emergency measure, I see no reason a competant practioner could not slit the Crop, remove and sluice out the contents and residue, and suture the incision closed, and just get it done with that way.

I thought of doing this, but it would be new to me and I did not feel competant to do it.


Best wishes,


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks so much everyone...

I will say, having her in my short front really seemed to ease the thrashings.

I also kept my hand lightly against her off and on rom outside my shirt.


Prior times I had set them up in a cage with lots of rumpled towells, and of course they thrashed a good deal and I would keep going over trying to ease or calm them...so the 'shirt-front' really seems to make a big difference for that.

I did have her in the rumpled-towell-cage set up at first, and of course there was lots of thrashing, so I am confident this method is good...since once in the shirt-front, there were far less episodes, and they were readily calmed by gentle hand ministerings to get her Wings layed back against her.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Just read about your hen dying, Phil!

I am so sorry but know that you did your best. Few pass next to a human body who cares so deeply.

Love and Hugs

Shi


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