# Thinking about re-pairing



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi folks, 

This morning while cleaning up the bird room I watched two things and those two things kind of stuck with me so I'm inquiring. First thing I saw was Henny and Eggbert fighting over their nesting cubby. They have no eggs currently and for some reason Henny didn't want Eggbert anywhere near the cubby and she was defending it from him. Quite a scuffle broke out at one point. I've seen Eggbert and Henny fight before in the past as well and it's usually over the nest/eggs and the reasons are unknown to me.

The second thing I noticed and which is an all day, Sun-Sat. occurance is Lucy and Ricky pacing back and forth, flying and desparately wanting to get over to Eggbert and Henny's side of the room. They both seem very unhappy alone and they refuse to pair up. When the babies were born and when I learned they were male and female, I thought they'd pair up and be contented with each other. This however is obviously not going to happen. They fight quite often about food, perches and of course gaining the attentions of their parents. Lucy is by far the most determined and she desparately wants her father for a mate and he's been smitten with her in the past too. Ricky, he's an oddball...he seems more interested in his father than his mother and he's nearly 2 years old!  I don't really understand why he's not taking on more mature male behaviour and he *should* be interested in his mother like his sister is with her father.

For those of you who don't remember or don't know, Henny & Eggbert are the older pair and the parents of Ricky and Lucy. They are also not very tame. Ricky and Lucy are hand reared birds, nearly 2 years old and are very tame. They don't know that these are their parents and Eggbert & Henny don't realize that these are their offspring. I only have the 4 pigeons and they all live in an 16' X 12' room divided by a screen equally into two sections (one pair on each side).

So after seeing this today and thinking about it, I thought maybe it would be best for the 4 pigeons if I placed Lucy with her father and Ricky with his mother. I know Lucy would be very happy and content and I think Eggbert would adjust to a new mate. Ricky and Henny on the other hand are the birdrs in question. I think that Henny would be distraught by the breakup and I'm not sure Ricky would even take to her either..since he's shows little interest in her.

What do you all think? Does this sound like a workable plan...could it make the birds less stressed out and perhaps calm down a bit? How would I go about doing this the best way and do you think the new pairs would "stick" being able to see each other? I think if they would/could pair up with a their respective parent, they would be happier but I don't know. There will be no more pigeons introduced in the forseeable future so I do feel bad for Ricky and Lucy being mateless. They have each other for "company" if you want to call it that but the don't really get along and they can see their parents all the time and desparately want mates. There would of course be no breeding allowed by either pair because of the risks and because I don't have the space.

I appreciate any thoughts, input and/or experience on any of these issues and ideas.

Thank you,


P.S. I can't just allow all the birds together in one room to choose for themselves because Eggbert is still way too aggressive towards Ricky and always beats him up if they are together.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

We in the "pigeon racing" world re-pair our birds all the time. If you could possibly fix your room so that the two pairs could not see each other, it would make a big difference. Also, are you positive that Ricky is a Ricky? Even a two year old that has never been bred from can fool you. We bought a bird last year that is 1 1/2 years old. The man was selling "it" because they bought it as a young bird thinking it was a hen. He said it turned out to be a cock and they didn't need it. Well, we did need another cock so we bought it. Guess what? He's a she and she's raising her first round of youngsters right now. I've got hens that any pigeon person would think is a cock if he saw her in action. But anyway, if you want to change mates it shouldn't be a problem. They will get over having their mate taken away or switched. Just my opinion.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Renee, 

Well I'm not 100% sure Ricky is a male, but it would seem that he is for these reasons. He's bigger and heavier than Lucy, he's never laid any eggs whereas Lucy's laid 2 sets so far, and thirdly Eggbert HATES him and attacks him whever he can but he's tried to mate with Lucy on several occasions.

I worry about Henny, my poor girl losing her mate and whether Ricky will take to her. As well, I'm not sure it will be possible for me to close off the room so that they can't see each other. I know it would be best but since I've only got the 4 birds, I think it's important that they have a sence of being in a group...hope that doesn't seem silly

If they can see each other, will this ruin the chances if I try to re-pair them?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Brad, quite a dilema you have there.
I have no advice to give you. I let my guys pair up with whom ever they like and they all live peacefully in a room. Well sort of peacfully. They do have their arguments and fights and newly intoduced birds are always attacked, but they settle after a day or two. 
What happens when you let them be all togehter in one room? Would they kill eachother? Just curious, as mine never got to the point of injuring anybody

Reti


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Reti and Thanks, 

Eggbert is the culprit here, he is incessant and will spend his entire time trying to beat up Ricky. I've allowed them together on numerous occasions and this is the first thing he does....go after Ricky and pecks at him unmercifully. There were times that he'd fly him down until tired, corner him and then savagely beat him up. I hated to see this but I had to know what would happen and I was hoping that Ricky would be more assertive and start to defend himself but overall, he won't.

I would like the best for the pigeons and I'm always trying to think of how I could make things better for them so I thought perhaps re-arranging the dynamics would help. I know Henny won't be pleased and even Eggbert I can see not being happy at first. Although I believe he would adjust better.

It's just something I'm thinking about but not too sure of at the moment and trying to get feedback on.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Your Eggbert is quite violent LOL. Guess I was lucky so far, haven't had any mean pigeons.
Hope you find a solution that will make everybody happy.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,

Birds that are hand raised are not normal pigeons, they tend to try but are somewhat insecure around other pigeons. I'm sure you have taken that into consideration, with your young ones. My Skye and Sonic just bonded to each other out of need and seem to get along with the other birds just fine, even though they are half human. Skye is not a very aggressive male but I have seen him try to beat up another pigeon or two,(he never flirts with other hens-like the rest of my mated males) but Sonic has always been a very aggressive female. ...and then again it could be just a matter of different personalities.

Let me get this in perspective....

Is Lucy laying eggs because she is "in love" with Eggbert, bonded to you, or because she has mated with Ricky? Do you know?

Is Henny in love with Eggbert or has this just been a tolerated relationship? Hens usually will chose the male or their choice if given the chance.

Since Eggbert is a very dominent male (a very interesting personality...I would love to know his background) and will not tolerate any other male in his territory, then Ricky may never be accepted. Eggbert must know that Ricky is a male and a threat. 

But I would sure like to see Ricky interact with some strange birds, just to see if his behavior changes at all. Although Eggbert must sense Ricky is a male...is there any chance that Ricky could be a hen? I have seen hens that take on male roles, and hens won't lay eggs if they are not "in-love".

I would also like to see Eggbert around other males to see if he beats them up too, or if it is just Ricky.

I would first suggest you allow them all together, and see how they interact, is that possible.. but only when you are with them? Perhaps you can allow both hens in the same pen with Eggbert, and see what happens. It is possible that he will accept both hens as his mate, a situation that is sometimes tolerated among hens, sometimes not. Maybe he will be so occupied that he will leave Ricky alone. I'm just afraid that Henny may become depressed or withdrawn, if you seperate her from Eggbert and she is able to see Eggbert with Lucy.

The only way I would seperate them is if the two couples can't see each other. That way Henny may be okay, and Ricky may have some company. The change itself is going to be stressful to them, but that is something that time will take care of.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> Birds that are hand raised are not normal pigeons, they tend to try but are somewhat insecure around other pigeons. I'm sure you have taken that into consideration, with your young ones.


Yes Treesa, I totally agree, and this is what I think too, there is definitely something lacking in the young ones (more Ricky) but both of their ways.



Trees Gray said:


> My Skye and Sonic just bonded to each other out of need and seem to get along with the other birds just fine, even though they are half human. Skye is not a very aggressive male but I have seen him try to beat up another pigeon or two,(he never flirts with other hens-like the rest of my mated males) but Sonic has always been a very aggressive female. ...and then again it could be just a matter of different personalities.


Yep, this is pretty much exactly how Lucy and Ricky are as well...Lucy being much more aggressive in her needs and desires and Ricky being very aloof and withdrawn around the other birds, he only feels in charge of his domain, meaning around Lucy in their area. I think that maybe because you have a large flock of birds, Skye and Sonic paired up because they were two of a kind so to speak, they were the "odd" birds out and realized this. With my two, there are not the same options. With only 4 birds, they either want the bird of their choice or none at all.



Trees Gray said:


> Is Lucy laying eggs because she is "in love" with Eggbert, bonded to you, or because she has mated with Ricky? Do you know?


I believe, that the times that Lucy laid eggs were because of successful matings between her and Eggbert. There were times when they were together that he mounted her and before I or Henny could stop it, I think they were successful.



Trees Gray said:


> But I would sure like to see Ricky interact with some strange birds, just to see if his behavior changes at all. Although Eggbert must sense Ricky is a male...is there any chance that Ricky could be a hen? I have seen hens that take on male roles, and hens won't lay eggs if they are not "in-love".


This isn't possible, there will be no more pigeons brought into the fold and I know for a fact that Eggbert senses that Ricky is a male, this is why he attacks him at any given chance. As well, because of the other things I mentioned, Ricky being bigger/heavier, and even his attitude towards his sister, I'm nearly sure he is a male. 

When I got Eggbert, he was the underdog, smaller than the other Runt males and probably a victim of beatings himself from what I saw. As well, now he's in charge, the dominent male in a group of 4 and likely because Ricky has never really defended himself, this gives Eggbert all the more incentive to go on a rampage.




Trees Gray said:


> I would first suggest you allow them all together, and see how they interact, is that possible.. but only when you are with them? Perhaps you can allow both hens in the same pen with Eggbert, and see what happens. It is possible that he will accept both hens as his mate, a situation that is sometimes tolerated among hens, sometimes not. Maybe he will be so occupied that he will leave Ricky alone. I'm just afraid that Henny may become depressed or withdrawn, if you seperate her from Eggbert and she is able to see Eggbert with Lucy.


I've done this before and in the beginning I left all of them together in the full room for days. What ended up happening was that Eggbert dominated everything and the youngsters at that time, the young birds had little if any time to eat, were afraid to move from their perches and were generally unhappy. In these early days, Eggbert also attacked Lucy as well and I'm assuming it was because she was immature. Now that she is mature, he tolerates her and would like to mate with her, classic case of male pigeon philandering When I've placed Lucy in the room with Henny and Eggbert, he'll court her, and attempt matings and then Henny will rush over at the last moment and attack Lucy to break it up. Lucy is also very aggressive towards her mother and bullies her otherwise.



Trees Gray said:


> The only way I would seperate them is if the two couples can't see each other. That way Henny may be okay, and Ricky may have some company. The change itself is going to be stressful to them, but that is something that time will take care of.


I suppose I could do this but I really wouldn't want it to be permanent. I like the more open room for air circulation and as well so that the birds can observe each other. I feel it's important for the young ones to see "normal" pigeon behaviour and as well I don't want them to feel isolated in single pairs. If you think that I could remove a closed barrier down the road, I might try that.

Thanks Treesa for your comments, you and I seem to have a lot in common this way with our hand raised birds and seem to be able to foresee what can be expected


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Brad, you do have a dilemma. My gut instinct is to just keep things as they are. If Eggbert dominates Ricky so much, he could actually kill him. I know you stay in the room with them but sometimes we all have to, say answer the phone, or door, and it doesn't take long for a really strong bird to do a lot of damage to another.

Also, my heart goes out to Henny,  the really innocent one in all of this. I would hate to see her hurt and even though she may just put up with Eggbert, he is still her fella. I have watched over the years how upset a female can get when their male may flirt with another female. They either attack the female or go on a branch and sulk or get very quiet. 

Things could improve the older all of them get.

Maggie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Maggie, 

Just to clarify, there would never be a time where all 4 birds would be in the same room together. My new idea is to have the pairs reversed. Right now Ricky and Lucy are on one side, Henny and Eggbert on the other. I want to switch that, Henny and Ricky together and Lucy and Eggbert together on their own sides.

I'm questioning having 2 unhappy birds (Lucy and Ricky) as apposed to one (Henny). I haven't decided on a thing yet but I was throwing around this idea and hoping that the pair reversal might change things for the positive


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I would hate to see her hurt and even though she may just put up with Eggbert, he is still her fella.



Oh, thanks Maggie for reminding me about this and Henny and Eggbert's relationship because Treesa had asked me about this.

Henny's first mate was Foghorn and that pairing only lasted about 2 months. At that time, Henny had worms and I was unaware or as knowledgeable and she passed them to Foghorn and he died from complications.

Henny therefore, was never "allowed" to choose her own mate. I chose Eggbert for her and in the beginning she did really only "tolerate" him. She didn't seem smitten with Eggbert for the longest time and I do feel that she's only his mate now because of necessity. That said though, breaking up their pairing will still be hard on her because they've been together now for over 3 years.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, you can always give it a try and see what happens. It could work like a charm and you'd have 4 happy pijjies.  

Maggie


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

*Hi Brad,*

Is there a possibility that you could _*partially*_ close off the room by putting up half a partition or something like that?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Shi, 

I'm sorry, I think I've confused some of you with my description of the room and how it's set up. Currently, the room is divided into two with a wall I built and then I stapled a plastic screening onto the wall frame. Each pair of birds are contained on their own side by this wall but they can still see each other. The wall has to go all the way up to the ceiling nearly or the birds can get up and over it as I found out in the beginning

What I was asking Renee and Treesa about was if I covered that wall, with a sheet or something so that the birds couldn't see each other if I went through with the pair switch.

The idea gives me a knot in my stomach and I'm not sure I'll try it yet. I know the first thing Eggbert will do is mate with Lucy and then eggs will follow. I'm not sure I like that idea of her laying often....such decisions. I was mostly hoping for feedback and discussion to help me decide on what to do, what to expect and if it would even work properly with the setup I have.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Brad,

If the sheet keeps the birds from seeing each other that might work.

With a sheet up on the wall first,you wouldn't have done any major permanent re-modeling and you can easily go back to original arrangement.

Try it and see if the arrangement will work better for them, with Lucy and Eggbert together, and Ricky & Henny together. I know you are looking out for their best interest and if they are not happy at this point you should give it a try.


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