# garden doves?



## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I am just curious about something...
Some of the Pigeon Talk members from the U.K. have posted about their garden doves. I understand that in the U.K., Dovecotes are popular garden features, and that these are often populated with white Doves that home to the cote after some initial training, and make beautiful living garden accents thereafter.

The garden doves I have seen in pictures strongly resemble white fantail pigeons. I'm wondering if that is indeed what they are, just with a different name. Or are they a different species altogether? 

Also as an aside I'm wondering why people in the U.S. and other countries do not seem to share this custom. (Or do they and I have just not heard about it?)

Can anyone shed some light on this topic?
Thanks in advance!


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## X3MTM (Apr 18, 2006)

to tell ya the truth, i never heard about having doves as "garden decorations" never seen it either...but i mean, if i were to let my pigeons out in my garden to "enjoy" they probably wouldnt make it because of all the cats, owls, and hawks around....


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

X3MTM said:


> to tell ya the truth, i never heard about having doves as "garden decorations" never seen it either...but i mean, if i were to let my pigeons out in my garden to "enjoy" they probably wouldnt make it because of all the cats, owls, and hawks around....


Hi X3MTM,
I'm also curious about that.
The garden doves would have a safe haven within their cotes. But I imagine predators might still be an issue...

Then again, I have birdhouses for wild birds in my garden and they seem to fare pretty well.


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## Royaltypigeon (May 22, 2005)

Karen/moonswirl
I believe if you did a google search on garden doves,,, you can find those answers,,, Rupert aka Robert Stevenson has a very well explained web page.
From what I gather,,, Garden doves are a cross between Indian fantails and white homing birds. The cross is a very beautiful flying breed that has the simularity of a fantail with homing instinct.
As far as dovecotes here in the states,,, we have differing laws in our fair cities that prohibit the keeping of pigeons,,, mostly from an uneducated fear. And in some cases,,, we have caused our own grief from not keeping a nice looking loft area... Too many shanties in the burbs will get the neigbors in an uproar..
Also,,,in the other countries,,, these folks have been breeding pigeons for generation after generation , and in a lot of the smaller villages,,, more than 50 percent of the population raise pigeons... Hence,,, no city fathers will be able to prohibit the keeping of pigeons.
I raise some white homing birds and also last year,, I bought some Indian fantails for the sole purpose of breeding some Garden doves,,, I havn't been successful as of yet,,, but,, I'll get there because I like you,, think they are just too cool not to try..
Hope this helps,,,
Gary H.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Royaltypigeon said:


> ,,,these folks have been breeding pigeons for generation after generation , and in a lot of the smaller villages,,, more than 50 percent of the population raise pigeons... Hence,,, no city fathers will be able to prohibit the keeping of pigeons.
> I raise some white homing birds and also last year,, I bought some Indian fantails for the sole purpose of breeding some Garden doves,,, I havn't been successful as of yet,,, but,, I'll get there because I like you,, think they are just too cool not to try..
> Hope this helps,,,
> Gary H.


Wow - it is amazing to me that raising pigeons would be considered a "norm" in some areas of the world...or at least not an "abnorm" haha. That is wonderful - even if the practice probably got its start from raising the birds for food.

As for your experiment - good luck! If I lived in a more secluded area I would be tempted to try raising some. Both the birds and the cotes are very attractive. I just don't think they would fare too well against the riff-raff in my urban neighborhood, though I don't think pigeons are against any local ordinances. (The breeder I got my ringnecks from lives just a few blocks away. He also raises Old German Owls and Valencian Figuritas. But they're safe in a walled-in yard in a secure coop...)

Thanks for the info - I will check out Mr. Stevenson's site!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi,

Even here in the UK it is not always clear what's what 

Cynthia or I post sometimes about "Thorpe Green", where a flock of mainly white pigeons feeds and hangs out, and from where we get quite a number in need of help. Sometimes and by some people the birds are referred to as Doves, sometimes as Pigeons. Sometimes it just depends on context - for instance, if something a little sympathetic is required in the local newspaper then 'Doves' will, for a lot of folk, conjure up a 'good' image, whereas 'Pigeons' will not. Quite a few of these birds are fantails and it's probable that most of the non-fantail white birds are descended from garden fantails kept some years back by a pub owner. 

A colleague of mine live on his parents-in-law's land - part of a farm - and his mother-in-law tried to keep Doves in a fancy dovecote. What she had were highly expensive white Indian doves of the ringneck family - not white pigeons or fantails. None of them lasted long, though, due to either flying off and getting lost or getting caught by predators, of which there are many where they are.

It really is just a matter of common usage if they are, basically, pigeons. 'White Dove' releases are, when run by reputable people, white homing pigeon releases, for example.

Somehow, I imagine New England to have lots of dovecotes .. but then, I've never been there 

John


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## Becca199212 (May 10, 2007)

I got mixed up at first. It's quite confusing actually there I was getting told never to let the doves out of the net sorrounding the aivary, they would fly away when I knew from experience that they don't fly away, from what I got told what we call doves are actually pigeons just since they are white we call them doves. 

It was just yeaterday that my uncle told me there was no such thing as a fantail dove only a fantail pigeons so we did not keep doves we kept pigeons. I told him he was stupid and idn't know anything but know you have asked this it makes sence. Thanks!
Is there a difference between pigeons and doves? And how do you define one form the other?


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

Becca199212 said:


> Is there a difference between pigeons and doves? And how do you define one form the other?


That is definitely a confusing issue in itself! Here's an article that may help explain:

From Wikipedia on Pigeons:
"In general parlance the terms "dove" and "pigeon" are used somewhat interchangeably. In ornithological practice there is a tendency for "dove" to be used for smaller species and "pigeon" for larger ones, but this is in no way consistently applied, and historically the common names for these birds involve much variation between "dove" and "pigeon.""


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

amoonswirl said:


> That is definitely a confusing issue in itself!


Too true, specially when they go changing "Rock Dove" to "Rock Pigeon" 

John


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

John_D said:


> A colleague of mine live on his parents-in-law's land - part of a farm - and his mother-in-law tried to keep Doves in a fancy dovecote. What she had were highly expensive white Indian doves of the ringneck family - not white pigeons or fantails. None of them lasted long, though, due to either flying off and getting lost or getting caught by predators, of which there are many where they are.
> -------
> Somehow, I imagine New England to have lots of dovecotes .. but then, I've never been there
> John


That's too bad about your colleague's mother-in-law's ringneck doves. The person who sold them to her should have been more responsible. I don't know of any ringnecks that have homing abilities or "street smarts" against predators.  

----
re: New England
I've only been in MA for a few years. I haven't seen any active Dovecotes here, but have noticed a few cubby-like structures atop older buildings that I suspect may have been used for keeping pigeons at one time. 

Also - the artist Joseph Cornell features small dovecote replicas as a motif in a few of his pieces. He lived in Queens, NYC for most of his life. But I read that the dovecotes of New England inspired him to incorporate the idea into his mixed media pieces. So he must have seen some in use - I would guess around the 1930s or 1940s. Wish I knew where he saw them...


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I always think of doves as being much smaller than a true pigeon. Most of the wild mourning doves we have cared for weigh about 130-140 grams compared to our pigeons being over 300 grams, average. A dove's head is also smaller in comparison to the size of its body and they "talk"  differently, too.


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