# Breed Identification?



## Nuna (Jul 28, 2012)

I recently brought my pigeon home from work. I knew she was a fancy, but as I hadn't had a lot of experience with fancies, I didn't know what breed she was much beyond possibly some sort of fantail mix. I was looking through the breed list though, and she looks remarkably like a Kazner. Only problem is, that there is practically no information about Kazners anywhere, and I'm not sure she even is one. So, my question is, can anyone help me surmise if she's a mix, or if she falls under a certain breed?

Picture of the bird


----------



## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

she's a fantail x..


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey Andrew, I thought so too but have never seen quite such a good fan on a cross, In saying that I have not seen many fan crosses. What you think about the colour? Dunn with bronze?


----------



## nzpouter (Aug 20, 2011)

bronze definately in there, I saw some look similar when Bruce Hobbs was first crossing fans with swallows to create indians.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

I wondered what he used. Noone seem to knew.


----------



## indigobob (Nov 12, 2008)

Nuna said:


> I recently brought my pigeon home from work. I knew she was a fancy, but as I hadn't had a lot of experience with fancies, I didn't know what breed she was much beyond possibly some sort of fantail mix. I was looking through the breed list though, and she looks remarkably like a Kazner. Only problem is, that there is practically no information about Kazners anywhere, and I'm not sure she even is one. So, my question is, can anyone help me surmise if she's a mix, or if she falls under a certain breed?
> 
> Picture of the bird


It is similar to a Kazan or Rostov Tumbler. 

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Pigeons/Kazan/BRKKazan.html

The colour is ash-red spread, covering chequer pattern, with dirty and maybe other colour modifying genes.


----------



## hamza syed (Jun 22, 2012)

i think a cross of Kazan and Fantail..


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Looks like a Kazan to me. Not all birds are show quality.


----------



## Nuna (Jul 28, 2012)

Kazan looks pretty likely I think, Thanks guys. She's essentially a rescue so I wasn't sure what to expect.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

indigobob said:


> It is similar to a Kazan or Rostov Tumbler.
> 
> http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Pigeons/Kazan/BRKKazan.html
> 
> The colour is ash-red spread, covering chequer pattern, with dirty and maybe other colour modifying genes.


You will have a hard time convincing me that is ash red spread. No matter what modifiers are present. I have never seen as looking so brown.

Becky - What you think?


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

NZ Pigeon said:


> You will have a hard time convincing me that is ash red spread. No matter what modifiers are present. I have never seen as looking so brown.
> 
> Becky - What you think?



I agree with indigobob, it is ash red spread +......


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't know. That was my first assumption, ash-red spread split for blue. I call them black ash, haha. Not uncommon in rollers and trentons. But I agree it looks like it has a brown tint, perhaps bronze. Or maybe it is dirty, literally, and needs a bath.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok, Indigobob, sorry I could be wrong, I had not seen any ash red based bird look that dark ever but it makes sense if het for blue, Luke has a FB cross that is dunn and has prooven that through its progeny, It looks similar but does not have the bronze. The tail fades out in the same way this ones does

Nuna - Hope you don't mind the conversation going offtrack a bit towards the colour of the bird, I can't help myself........ It helps me to learn some of the different phenotypes that come about from combos of genes, In NZ we do not have the variety seen overseas so its good.


----------



## dimerro (Nov 23, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I don't know. That was my first assumption, ash-red spread split for blue. I call them black ash, haha. Not uncommon in rollers and trentons. But I agree it looks like it has a brown tint, perhaps bronze. Or maybe it is dirty, literally, and needs a bath.


or maybe it is het rec red


----------



## ntama (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi guys ,to me looks like a dunn colored Debreceni roller,hope its help


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

So it could be dunn, or ash red spread, Atleast we agree its spread lol


----------



## loftkeeper (Sep 21, 2010)

I Would Say This A 3/4 Fantail And 1/4 Indian Fantail The Tail Is In Pretty Bad Shape The More The Fantail Flys The More The Tail Becomes Scooped Instead Of Being Flat This Bird Has Feathers Missing In It Tail Also The Color On The Beak Makes Me Wonder What Color It Is


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Flesh or ivory coloured beaks can be due to a lot of things, To name a few, Smoky, dilute, rec red, pied can give a similar colour beak.


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It's smokey, thus the light beak.


----------



## billgarb (Aug 26, 2011)

I think it is a cross between an Indian and American Fantail. Could be ash red.


----------



## JanieLee1129 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Newbie*

Sorry to jump randomly into this thread but it's main post seemed kkkiinnndddaaa close to what I would post? Any way....I found a wild baby pigeon and plan on keeping him/her(she's very tame at this point, eats out of my hand and runs to me). But I was wondering if later I wanted to get her a friend or 3 what should I get? Idk if pigeon fanciers are like dog breeders...but most dog breeders don't want their pups breeding with mutts. So seeing as I'm not sure if it's a male or female...what pigeon breed would be acceptable to put with this pigeon? And one last question...I know you can band pigeons so if they are caught or whatnot they can be returned or w/e, how would I go about doing this for my unknown baby breed?


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

JanieLee1129 said:


> Sorry to jump randomly into this thread but it's main post seemed kkkiinnndddaaa close to what I would post? Any way....I found a wild baby pigeon and plan on keeping him/her(she's very tame at this point, eats out of my hand and runs to me). But I was wondering if later I wanted to get her a friend or 3 what should I get? Idk if pigeon fanciers are like dog breeders...but most dog breeders don't want their pups breeding with mutts. So seeing as I'm not sure if it's a male or female...what pigeon breed would be acceptable to put with this pigeon? And one last question...I know you can band pigeons so if they are caught or whatnot they can be returned or w/e, how would I go about doing this for my unknown baby breed?


You can get any breed of pigeon you like, you could even get three. Pigeon breeders, at least the ones I know, aren't quite as severe as dog breeders since pigeons are cheap to care for and easy to breed compared to dogs. Just remember that pigeons can breed a lot. One pair can have up to 12 babies in a year.

The birds you get should be about the same size as your rescue. No use getting larger birds that will bully your baby. Some breeds are tamer than others (all the German color breeds are extremely wild and flighty), and if you want a pet, you should try to get young birds from a breeder, and raise them like you raised your rescue. 

You should be able to find rings at your pigeon store, but you will not be able to ring the rescue with a closed band, though you can buy plastic bands that you can put on adult birds (just write your telephone number on it with a fine marker).


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> It's smokey, thus the light beak.


A light beak is in no way a sure indicator of the smoky gene, I have ash red birds with ivory beaks in my loft that have been breeding blues for years now with no smokys to be seen. As in previous post, Dilute, smoky, recessive red, pied also ash red and other gene combinations can cause an ivory, flesh or light coloured beak.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

I think Becky meant that there is no visible albescent strip, so the bird is probably smoke. But I agree that ash-red will also usually cause a ivory beak (from what I have seen, depending on the other genes it is possible to darken the beak somewhat).


----------



## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

rudolph.est said:


> I think Becky meant that there is no visible albescent strip, so the bird is probably smoke. But I agree that ash-red will also usually cause a ivory beak (from what I have seen, depending on the other genes it is possible to darken the beak somewhat).


Yes, and the overall look just seems smokey to me.


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

MaryOfExeter said:


> It's smokey, thus the light beak.





rudolph.est said:


> I think Becky meant that there is no visible albescent strip, so the bird is probably smoke. But I agree that ash-red will also usually cause a ivory beak (from what I have seen, depending on the other genes it is possible to darken the beak somewhat).


Your right, No albescent strip is a sure indicator but a light beak is not so I just wanted to clear that up. If its ash red spread however as most people think then there would be no albescent strip visible either right?



MaryOfExeter said:


> Yes, and the overall look just seems smokey to me.


Could be I am not doubting that, But if ash red spread it could be just that, If its a dunn then I agree its a smoky


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> If its ash red spread however as most people think then there would be no albescent strip visible either right?


Why wouldn't an ash-red spread have an albescent strip? Ash-reds have albescent strips just like other colors, but since the tails are usually so light you cannot make it out, while this bird is such a dark as, you surely would be able to make it out. Spread also does not cover the albescent strip (all my spread homers have it).


----------



## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Your right, No albescent strip is a sure indicator but a light beak is not so I just wanted to clear that up. If its ash red spread however as most people think then there would be no albescent strip *visible *either right?
> 
> 
> 
> Could be I am not doubting that, But if ash red spread it could be just that, If its a dunn then I agree its a smoky





rudolph.est said:


> Why wouldn't an ash-red spread have an albescent strip? Ash-reds have albescent strips just like other colors, but since the tails are usually so light you cannot make it out, while this bird is such a dark as, you surely would be able to make it out. Spread also does not cover the albescent strip (all my spread homers have it).


I never said an ash red bird would not have an albescent strip, I said it would not be visible. I personally do not think this bird is ash red spread at all, If it is, then it is very dark and would probably show an albescent strip.

I agree 100% that spread does not cover the albescent strip, I have spread blue racers with incredibly visible albescent strips.


----------



## rudolph.est (May 14, 2009)

NZ Pigeon said:


> I never said an ash red bird would not have an albescent strip, I said it would not be visible. I personally do not think this bird is ash red spread at all, If it is, then it is very dark and would probably show an albescent strip.
> 
> I agree 100% that spread does not cover the albescent strip, I have spread blue racers with incredibly visible albescent strips.


Apologies, I must have misread your post.


----------



## laughingdog (Jun 14, 2011)

yeah ima jump in on the original post too, as met a local breeder of indian fantails that were with some other breed (forget what was), but some looked just like the pic OP out up, and almost like a female fantail performer mix (in my first flock of four pigeons i ever bought years ago, as squeker she oddly came back when adult pair and male squeaker never did after shooting straight off in direction i got them from, after settling for month), i have recently gotten back and curious to try mating again (all eggs with the one male got her to pair with were duds). wouldnt you know i got her back right after i refused some indian fantails from them! maybe i still have their number.. beautiful bird though! as i love some of the fantail mixes, or "garden fantails" as called, more than new american fantail standard, and indian fantails were hard to find.


----------



## tmaas (May 17, 2012)

I'm going to differ from many of you on this birds color. The beak, toenails, foot feathers and tail feather shaft colors all say brown to me. The eye cere says dirty. The bronzing of neck and tail feather color, along with what appears to be slight flecking in tail, says indigo. So, I'm going with dirty, indigo, brown, t-check, plus other mystery Indian Fantail modifier genes. Yes, I think its an Indian Fantail cross. I've seen plenty like it here in the U S.


----------

