# Pigeons Stomping Their Feet, & Biting at Them



## Jellybean50 (Jun 4, 2010)

Hi,

My first post. I searched around for an answer - but i figure i better just post the question. (This looks like a great Forum!)

My b/f has pigeons. He's raised pigeons for years, and just recently moved back to this area (South Jersey) and started up again with 8 of them. He knows about putting the powder on them etc. for mites.

But he says they seem to be stamping their feet alot, and biting at their feet. (The reason i'm typing this is becuz he doesnt type or use the computer lol.) I looked in on them today while he was working and it did seem to be true. I had checked online last nite and read that they do the stomping as communication, but they do seem to be itching. The only thing i saw was some gnats/'no see-ums' flying around inside the cage. It's outdoors, and he keeps it very clean.

We are in South Jersey where it's been very hot and humid lately. Could the kind of wood he used to build with have anything to do with it? I looked really closely at their feet and didnt see a thing.

Thanks very much, Jilly


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Welcome to PT, someone will help you soon, just keep checking back, it is a great forum........


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## Jellybean50 (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you. 

He just got home and i'm sure hes gonna be excited about this forum. And probly wanting to buy more birds!


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## sky tx (Mar 1, 2005)

They may just have very dry feet--rub them with baby oil or vasiline


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I would dip the birds just in case they do have mites. Because they will do this with mites. And you can look at the feet and not see them THEN it could be the nats. But just in case I would dip them. Around here we get buffalo nats they sting and cause welts on humans. Even some people get bit near there eye and it swell shut. I never get bothered But im lucky . So do you get buffalo nats in jersey.


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## Kastle Loft (May 7, 2008)

Could be some kind of mite (red mite?) that lives in the wood and comes out primarily at night. I've read bout them on this very forum but I couldn't find the post. The recommendation is for a perch oil that is rubbed on all the perching areas. That should take care of it all. I've also taken my mite dust and rubbed it into the perch areas as well.

Check this:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/7032-7050.html

David


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

dstephenson said:


> Could be some kind of mite (red mite?) that lives in the wood and comes out primarily at night. I've read bout them on this very forum but I couldn't find the post. The recommendation is for a perch oil that is rubbed on all the perching areas. That should take care of it all. I've also taken my mite dust and rubbed it into the perch areas as well.
> 
> Check this:
> 
> ...


You're right. Red mites will come out at night and bite the birds, but you wouldn't see them, as they hide in cracks and crevices during the daylight. And they do stomp their feet a lot with the red mites. Do you know if they seem to stomp more at night?


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## Jellybean50 (Jun 4, 2010)

We DID think it was happening more at nite, but when i went out to check them it was around 5PM and still light outside. They were not in the back in their 'boxes,' they were out on their perches etc.

I will give him all of this info tomorrow - thanx very much. I just heard them stomping around when i took the dog out, and i feel so bad for them 

I know he takes really good care of them and everything is clean and all. Thanks again!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

It may have been light outside, but it was probably pretty dark in the loft?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I suspect red mites too. It makes them pretty miserable.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

It's probably the "scale mite", I don't know if it's the red mite, but this one buries itself under the scales of pigeons' legs to feast on their blood they don't let the birds rest or sleep and the only remedy is to soak the birds legs upto the rump in a medium strong solution of Potassium Permanganate for about 5 minutes for the solution to permeate. Wear gloves, this stains unless you don't mind.
When you have done this leave your birds out away from the loft in the shade or to fly for two hours or more and use this time to paint every roost, perch and box as well as all the cracks upto the ceiling if you have a wooden loft with a good roost paint or oil. Use a paint brush and don't spare on the amount you use. I used to make my own petrol based paint mixed with 4 or 5 potent insecticides and Pine oil. Then wait for some time before you let the birds in.
Repeat after a week if necessary. Maybe you will find the dosage for the mix for the Six Roost Paint on the net.
Hope this helps.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I had the same problem a couple years ago with my fantails. The foot stomping and itching was day and night.
I treated the loft and perches with sevin dust, and put ivermectin in their bath water. Cleared it right up!


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

Does putting Cedar chips on the floor of your loft help.
I was told to so this and that the bugs do not like cedar?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Jellybean50 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My first post. I searched around for an answer - but i figure i better just post the question. (This looks like a great Forum!)
> 
> ...


Sounds like leg mites to me, you need to treat the birds and also kill the mites that are probably living in the cracks of the wood.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Kalkbl said:


> Does putting Cedar chips on the floor of your loft help.
> I was told to so this and that the bugs do not like cedar?


Breathing in the cedar is really not good for the birds respiratory system. I know there are some that use them, but it really isn't good for the birds. Better to use something to kill the bugs.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jellybean50 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My first post. I searched around for an answer - but i figure i better just post the question. (This looks like a great Forum!)
> 
> ...


it is that time of they year again! most will think the birds have mites...but here in va at the same time of the year the knats do come out and bother my birds as well and they stomp because of "no seeums", when they are out of the loft I spray organic all natural baby/child bug spray in the loft, and that seems to help.


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## jpsnapdy (Apr 4, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Breathing in the cedar is really not good for the birds respiratory system. I know there are some that use them, but it really isn't good for the birds. Better to use something to kill the bugs.


I don't see why, could you please explain. I used a floor dressing of tobacco stems and it did not stop the birds from flying extremely well. Tobacco stems keep bugs away too and has a strong smell.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

jpsnapdy said:


> I don't see why, could you please explain. I used a floor dressing of tobacco stems and it did not stop the birds from flying extremely well. Tobacco stems keep bugs away too and has a strong smell.


I use to use a small amount of cedar shavings in the loft to discourage insects, but I would put aspen shavings over them. As a rule, the scent cedar gives off has an effect on their respiratory system and its not good for them to breath them in all the time. Some small animals should not be on them at all - guinea pigs and ferrets are 2 that it can cause severe breathing difficulties.
I don't know about tobacco stems, never used them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pine isn't supposed to be good either, but cedar being worse. Many have had birds and small animals had reactions to the toxins in the shavings, Aspen is safer. Tobacco stems don't release the same toxins.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Breathing in the cedar is really not good for the birds respiratory system. I know there are some that use them, but it really isn't good for the birds. Better to use something to kill the bugs.


I just want from using corn cob too Pine chips and now am using cedar chips...while i like the smell it does make the smell in the air a little heavier to breath...so I can see where you are coming from....unless there is something else about cedar i dont know about that makes it bad.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why Not Cedar Shavings?

Cedar shavings, as well as other aromatic soft woods, such as white and yellow pines, release volatile hydrocarbons which affect those animals living in them. Plicatic acid, a volatile hydrocarbon, results in asthma in humans and rabbits. Other hydrocarbons result in changes in the liver, which may impair its ability to detoxify certain drugs, including various anesthetic agents. Cedar shavings have also been incriminated in increased mortality in rat pups, and various scientists over the years have alluded to possible carcinogenicity. In chicken litter, cedar shavings harbored more bacteria than other types of litter. 

http://www.aracnet.com/~seagull/faq/whynotcedar.html


This is only one report on the use of cedar shavings. There are many others. They are just plain bad for birds to breath the toxins that are emitted from them. A birds respiratory system is even more delicate, so it's even more dangerous for them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Here are just a couple more:


I would now like to address some points occasionally brought up in defense of pine and cedar shavings. It has been said that studies done on laboratory rodents and farm chickens cannot apply to pet rodents because the study conditions would not have as much ventilation as that in a home environment. However, The House Rabbit Journal (13) reported that several pet rabbits also showed elevated liver enzyme levels when softwood shavings were used in their litter boxes. When other litter was substituted, the enzyme levels returned to normal. Two of these rabbits had liver disease when autopsied. Many House Rabbit Society members reported deaths of their rabbits due to liver disease and all these rabbits had been exposed to softwood shavings. Rabbits are generally less exposed to their litter boxes than rodents are to the beddings in their cage, so increased ventilation does not mean the liver won't be affected. 
http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html
______________________________________________________________________________
Cedar and Pine Shavings are
Toxic to ALL Small Animals!

The news in a nutshell

AFRMA - Both cedar and pine contain phenols-that's the stuff that makes them smell good. Phenols are caustic, poisonous, acidic compounds. These compounds cause constant irritation to the nasal passages, throat, and lungs of small animals giving bacteria an easy opening, thus commonly causing pneumonia. Phenols also affect organs such as the liver and kidneys, because these organs are responsible for filtering toxins out of the body. When presented with a large amount of toxins over time, they are unable to filter it all out and begin to fail. An animal with a damaged liver will have a depressed immune system, which can lead to other medical conditions.
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2.htm
________________________________________________________________________________


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

When i raised fantails I used pine shaving. Just like people who keep horses use it in the stables. Never had any health issues. And New many a person who used it And Probably still does. cedar shaveing Are different. And i used pine needeles as they are not prone to insects and are easy to get where tobbaco has to be ordered in. Pine shaveings work rathere well And help keep the birds clean and the loft dry. If the pine shavings were so bad I think the horse people would have stopped using it long ago plus you find it used at livestock shows and county fares. Race birds really do not need floor covering as they are flighty and would scatter it. Just ground type birds need it. Plane floor for the rest. Not unless a person just wants it for looks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> When i raised fantails I used pine shaving. Just like people who keep horses use it in the stables. Never had any health issues. And New many a person who used it And Probably still does. cedar shaveing Are different. And i used pine needeles as they are not prone to insects and are easy to get where tobbaco has to be ordered in. Pine shaveings work rathere well And help keep the birds clean and the loft dry. If the pine shavings were so bad I think the horse people would have stopped using it long ago plus you find it used at livestock shows and county fares. Race birds really do not need floor covering as they are flighty and would scatter it. Just ground type birds need it. Plane floor for the rest. Not unless a person just wants it for looks.


Just because it is used doesn't mean it is good for them. And the birds respiratory system is much more delicate than a horses. Read the articles. You can't always see the damage unless you necropsy the animal after its death.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Just because it is used doesn't mean it is good for them. And the birds respiratory system is much more delicate than a horses. Read the articles. You can't always see the damage unless you necropsy the animal after its death.


I think if you have a well ventilated loft then the cedar wood chips wouldnt be that bad of a thing but for those who have very little air flowing thru the loft then you might want to find something else to use ... I myself find that if you use any wood chips at all it seems the loft is alot smellier then if you dont  not sure why but what ya gonna do  lol


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well why use something that has been found to be unsafe when you don't have to?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Well why use something that has been found to be unsafe when you don't have to?


because sometimes the benefits outweight the downfalls , like the smell factors and the bug repellants do benifit the birds as long as there is good ventilation like I said earlier .. but I wouldnt put it in their nest bowls or where birds are nesting meaning if they are nesting on the floor


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## Kalkbl (May 10, 2010)

> because sometimes the benefits outweight the downfalls , like the smell factors and the bug repellants


I was the one that asked on page one, Because several people around me have used it for years. I went back and told him of what I learned here and such.
He called me a worry wart, and said the loft is 16 years old and has had the cedar down the all the time. And that it has been a healthy loft with no death or disease and with out adding meds to the water and all that other jazz.

He said just like when we were kids, Paint chips were poisonous and Asbestos and many other things but we are not sick.

Told me I was going to be like a overly protective mother that forces antibiotics down there kids throat every time they sniffle. There by making their immune system even weaker so that they can not tolerate any germs at all.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

I don't use anything at all on the loft floor anymore. Easier to clean and their not blowing all those shavings out into the flight cage when they fly around 
I do put a small amount of aspen shavings inside the nest boxes, and I give them a tray of pine tree "tassles" to play with and put in their boxes themselves. They love those!


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I use cedar shavings sparingly around the loft in and out on the floor, to deter insects... I put it down thin and it is aired some already, because I open the bag and let it air for a week... never had a problemo at all, and find it's use as safe as any sprays people use to get rid of insects... I do not use it in the nest bowls or with young birds just in case.


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## Airbaby (Aug 9, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I use cedar shavings sparingly around the loft in and out on the floor, to deter insects... I put it down thin and it is aired some already, because I open the bag and let it air for a week... never had a problemo at all, and find it's use as safe as any sprays people use to get rid of insects... I do not use it in the nest bowls or with young birds just in case.


Thanks for sharing this, i think i am going to take a page from your book and do this also....airing things out for a week and used sparingly around the loft seems to make the most sense to me after reading this.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Airbaby said:


> Thanks for sharing this, i think i am going to take a page from your book and do this also....airing things out for a week and used sparingly around the loft seems to make the most sense to me after reading this.


I didn't have any problems when I used them in my old loft. It was open on 3 sides, and as Spirit Wings said - I used them sparingly and put aspen shavings over them. No bugs and it smelt nice but not too strong.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> Just because it is used doesn't mean it is good for them. And the birds respiratory system is much more delicate than a horses. Read the articles. You can't always see the damage unless you necropsy the animal after its death.


They say red meat is bad for us to But i like a good steak. NOW honest with so many people using PINE shavings not so much cedar And not have health problems with there birds As most lofts are ventilated. then perhaps its not that bad But As i said flighty birds like race birds really do not need loft floor covering. it just gets moved around.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> *They say red meat is bad for us to But i like a good steak. *NOW honest with so many people using PINE shavings not so much cedar And not have health problems with there birds As most lofts are ventilated. then perhaps its not that bad But As i said flighty birds like race birds really do not need loft floor covering. it just gets moved around.


But YOU have the right to choose whether you want to eat that steak or not. Do the birds have a right to choose? I'm not here to argue with you. Personally, I don't give a darn what others do. If the studies and reports say it is bad, then that is good enough for me. The question was asked, and I answered it. Just passing on the information. What you choose to do with it is up to you. I don't have to defend it, and I'm not going to.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> But YOU have the right to choose whether you want to eat that steak or not. Do the birds have a right to choose? I'm not here to argue with you. Personally, I don't give a darn what others do. If the studies and reports say it is bad, then that is good enough for me. The question was asked, and I answered it. Just passing on the information. What you choose to do with it is up to you. I don't have to defend it, and I'm not going to.


I read the article If you read it like it staes The study was done done on animals That lived 24 7 on the cedar shavings Where the pigeons are not on it 24 7. Not arguing. Just see things different from past experiances. I never used cedar as it is more bulky then pine shavings. with ground birds less flighty birds And fantails its best to use a ground/floor covering if not the tail feathers get soild and frayed. Corn cob shaving are not very wide used because there not in most areas. Tobbaco for floor covering would be very high to use as a loft florr very in size. Sand is the worst you can use because it hold moisture and brings sickness to the loft. hard pack works in certion breed types But it is really not healthy to the birds breathing and humans. plus looks like a dirty loft. Daily scrapping works well for birds that fly more which is most breeds. Pigeons make dust and ther for need good ventilation. Or the dust the makes cause problems to. But they need a certion amount of there dust to protect there feathers. Now days alot of the grains pigeons are fed are not the quality as the past feeds were Look good at your grains Much is low grade seed. and not cleaned as well as before. But sure costs alot more. Some mixes you can find cuckle burs stickers ect in the mix Because some places that make the feed mix do not think abought the birds as once was. We face alot of things when raising pigeons. And learn alot as time goes on.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

re lee said:


> *I read the article If you read it like it staes The study was done done on animals That lived 24 7 on the cedar shavings Where the pigeons are not on it 24 7. *Not arguing. Just see things different from past experiances. I never used cedar as it is more bulky then pine shavings. with ground birds less flighty birds And fantails its best to use a ground/floor covering if not the tail feathers get soild and frayed. Corn cob shaving are not very wide used because there not in most areas. Tobbaco for floor covering would be very high to use as a loft florr very in size. Sand is the worst you can use because it hold moisture and brings sickness to the loft. hard pack works in certion breed types But it is really not healthy to the birds breathing and humans. plus looks like a dirty loft. Daily scrapping works well for birds that fly more which is most breeds. Pigeons make dust and ther for need good ventilation. Or the dust the makes cause problems to. But they need a certion amount of there dust to protect there feathers. Now days alot of the grains pigeons are fed are not the quality as the past feeds were Look good at your grains Much is low grade seed. and not cleaned as well as before. But sure costs alot more. Some mixes you can find cuckle burs stickers ect in the mix Because some places that make the feed mix do not think abought the birds as once was. We face alot of things when raising pigeons. And learn alot as time goes on.



The rabbits that had liver damage only had it in their litter boxes.* They were not on it 24/7.*


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> The rabbits that had liver damage only had it in their litter boxes.* They were not on it 24/7.*


i never read anything about liver damage caused but cedar wood chips , just about the respiratory situations .. if you have ever noticed everything is bad for you or your animals sooner or later


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Here are just a couple more:
> 
> 
> I would now like to address some points occasionally brought up in defense of pine and cedar shavings. It has been said that studies done on laboratory rodents and farm chickens cannot apply to pet rodents because the study conditions would not have as much ventilation as that in a home environment. However,* The House Rabbit Journal (13) reported that several pet rabbits also showed elevated liver enzyme levels when softwood shavings were used in their litter boxes. When other litter was substituted, the enzyme levels returned to normal. Two of these rabbits had liver disease when autopsied. Many House Rabbit Society members reported deaths of their rabbits due to liver disease and all these rabbits had been exposed to softwood shavings. Rabbits are generally less exposed to their litter boxes than rodents are to the beddings in their cage, so increased ventilation does not mean the liver won't be affected.
> ...


*
*


These are only a few of the studies. There are many more documented. Just not worth it.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> These are only a few of the studies. There are many more documented. Just not worth it.


trail and error never hurt one in the attemp to find a happy medium 
plus the fact that rabbit urine mixed with wood chips tends to change the chemical reaction to the overal effect upon the situation in which pigeon excrement isnt the same


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> trail and error never hurt one in the attemp to find a happy medium
> plus the fact that rabbit urine mixed with wood chips tends to change the chemical reaction to the overal effect upon the situation in which pigeon excrement isnt the same


Urine has absolutely nothing to do with it. But if it makes you feel better trying to argue with the studies findings, than go right ahead. Your argument isn't with me, as I didn't run the tests. Just sharing the information. Do with it as you like.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

The studies are great but there are things that are *not taken into account with those studies that does make a difference*. For example, the animals tested all walk with their noses down to the ground, so they are literally _inhaling the dust_ with every breath. _So their not only breathing the aroma but taking in particles as well, which is NOT good._
Birds don't walk with their "noses" to the ground. So used "sparingly" in a well ventilated area would not be as harmful to birds as is to small animals and rodents. Ferrets have very sensitive respiratory systems and can be more affected than other small animals.
Studies are NOT 100% - A couple of years ago coffee was NOT good for you......Now it IS


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> Urine has absolutely nothing to do with it. But if it makes you feel better trying to argue with the studies findings, than go right ahead. Your argument isn't with me, as I didn't run the tests. Just sharing the information. Do with it as you like.


 Im not arguing the facts but if you ever had rabbits and used cedar chips as their bedding you would know what I ment about how much worse cedar shavings smell when their urine is mixed with it , its enuf to makes your eyes water lol not had that problem in the pigeon coop thou since they dont make puddles


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

LokotaLoft said:


> Im not arguing the facts but if you ever had rabbits and used cedar chips as their bedding you would know what I ment about how much worse cedar shavings smell when their urine is mixed with it , its enuf to makes your eyes water lol not had that problem in the pigeon coop thou since they dont make puddles


I can understand what you are saying, but the rabbits tested were not kept in their litter boxes.They just used them in the house. And the tests are based on the phenols or whatever that the chips give off. They give these off whether wet with urine or not. Birds respiratory systems are affected very easily by so many different things. They are more susceptible to things like this than other animals, whether they are with their noses in them or not, and whether or not they are urine soaked.


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