# One baby not thriving.



## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

I have just been to band my latest round. I've left the birds pretty much undisturbed since checking the eggs had hatched so, I was dismayed to find that one pair have babies of very unequal sizes. I've posted a photo so you can see if I am panicking unnecessarily!







So, my dilemma....will they be OK? Or, do I leave well alone and nature take it's course? Or, do I start to supplement the feeding of the smaller baby? I have read the sticky above 'Foster Parents' but, all my other birds have pairs of evenly matched babies, so a swap is not an option. If I do supplement, how much do I feed at a time? I think that I will have to go with the human baby's teat(nipple) method as I am not confident to tube feed. Do I keep the baby on a heating pad or put it back with it's parents between feeds?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've seen that before where it wasn't a problem. I usually end up bringing the bigger baby out so that the littler one can get more of the feedings. They probably hatched too far apart and the big one got too far ahead. The little one looks fine, as they go. If you bring the big one out, just make sure that it stays warm.

Pidgey


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks Pidgey.

One did hatch a day before the other - the larger one I guess! How long should I keep the big one out? An hour? Two? Longer? I have no idea how frequently the parents feed - they certainly never do it when I'm around!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I had the exact same thing happen this year and it was a first for me. Freaked me out a little when I found it. I took the tiny one out a couple of times a day for about 3 days and fed it some Exact formula. Other than that I left it alone and it did fine. Attached are a couple of pictures. It's name is Dory. One is when it was a baby and the other is when it's grown. I gave the baby to a girl close by here and it's her pet now. I knew that it probably would never be a racer.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the trick is simply to take him out for awhile and keep checking until you see that the little one's crop is full to bursting. Then you can put the bigger one back in. Just need to do it a few times a day. The little ones almost never quite catch up, though.

Pidgey


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Oh dear, two different ideas and I'm one of those people who can't even make up their mind in a buffet queue!! 

I'll try pulling the larger baby to start with as, if I'm honest, the thought of hand feeding a baby scares me to death!! I'll do it if I have to, so, if Pidgy's method doesn't succeed, then I will try feeding the little one Lovebird.

Thanks very much for your advice.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I would take out the healthier robust baby, and have mom feed the little one until it gets stronger. Make sure to keep an eye on her that she IS feeding him.

Hand feed the other one, but if mom and dad have plenty to go around and you really don't have any idea of how to handfeed, then make sure the young one is fed first, with each meal, stuffed to the gills and then put the big one back. The little one will soon catch up. 

You need to be there to pull big brother for every meal, to make sure little one is fed first.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pigeonpoo - honestly, they both look fine to me. Seems there is always a smaller one and it may never be as large as the other. Both crops look good and they're happily snoozing away.

If you can get in an area where you can watch unobserved you'll probably find they're feeding both. It certainly wouldn't hurt to pull the larger one for an hour or so if you're so worried.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Well, I have the larger baby in with me right now. He's snug as a bug in front of the coal fire (yes, it's cold enough here to have the fires burning!) His crop is full of seeds so, I've topped up the parent's food bowl and, in a short while, I'll go back and check that the smaller baby has a full crop, and, if so, leave them both in for tonight. I'm sure Mum will be better at regulating her babies' temperature overnight than me.  
The responsibility for these fragile lives weighs very heavily with me I'm afraid!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

*urgent - info on babies*

Sorry to break in. Would this idea of temporarily pulling a baby work for the lady who has the baby woodpigeon? I know pigeons *will* feed a woodie baby - just wonder whether this is worth suggesting, if her pigeons have small babies.

Would they temporarily accept a much younger baby, for instance, and would they be producing the right kind of food?

John


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

One thing I do when babies are being raised is re-fill their dish often. I feed everyone in the AM and then through out the day I go out, empty the dish, and re fill it. Most times, because there's "more" "good" seeds the parents will go feed the babies again, even if they don't REALLY need to be fed. You could do that with this baby. Just fill the dish again. They think they are getting something "better" and will check it out and feed again almost every time. LOL I do this because we raise our babies in the dead of winter so I want them to stay fed very well at all times. Oh, and I don't throw away the seeds that come out of the bowl. I carry around a bucket of fresh feed and just dump what's in the bowl, stir it up and re-fill. Alot depends on how insistent the baby is about being fed. With Dory, she would fight for her share. When she got older, about 3 weeks old, she would wing slap the crap out of me. She was a feisty one so that helped her some I guess.


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

they look really delicate and cute

I want to gently hold them in my cupped hands


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> One thing I do when babies are being raised is re-fill their dish often. I feed everyone in the AM and then through out the day I go out, empty the dish, and re fill it. Most times, because there's "more" "good" seeds the parents will go feed the babies again, even if they don't REALLY need to be fed. You could do that with this baby. Just fill the dish again. They think they are getting something "better" and will check it out and feed again almost every time. LOL I do this because we raise our babies in the dead of winter so I want them to stay fed very well at all times. Oh, and I don't throw away the seeds that come out of the bowl. I carry around a bucket of fresh feed and just dump what's in the bowl, stir it up and re-fill. A lot depends on how insistent the baby is about being fed. With Dory, she would fight for her share. When she got older, about 3 weeks old, she would wing slap the crap out of me. She was a feisty one so that helped her some I guess.


Thanks Lovebirds. I have been refilling twice a day but I'll up that a few extra times. I have noticed that they never eat the brown beans and the mix is about 50% of these!! I've been throwing the beans out for my fantails - garden hoovers, they eat anything and everything!! I'm going to pull the larger baby twice a day and refill the seed bowl yet again when I return him to the bowl. It might just give the little one a bit of an extra boost!


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## Jiggs (Apr 1, 2005)

The breeders I feed morning and night with plenty feed. But I always feed so much that in late afternoon they have an empty bowl. Thus when I feed at 5 they will feed the babies at about 5:15. So I know when the babies are about to be fed.

I have had a couple of small and big babies as in your photo, and all I do is remove the big one for the evening feed, thus the smaller gets its crop full, the larger will get it's breakfast etc.

would that help?


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Jiggs said:


> The breeders I feed morning and night with plenty feed. *But I always feed so much that in late afternoon they have an empty bowl.* Thus when I feed at 5 they will feed the babies at about 5:15. So I know when the babies are about to be fed.
> 
> I have had a couple of small and big babies as in your photo, and all I do is remove the big one for the evening feed, thus the smaller gets its crop full, the larger will get it's breakfast etc.
> 
> would that help?



Thanks Jiggs. My breeders always have food in the bowl/ Are you saying that you only give them enough to ensure that they empty the bowl? I've wondered about this, give them less and make sure they eat everything or, give more so they can choose what they eat?? I thought that the reason they left the bigger seeds/beans were that the babies couldn't cope with them!?


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

'I look up to my big brother.'


The tiny baby is still hanging in there! I'm continuing to pull the larger one several times a day and Tiny's crop is always full when I return him to the nest. They are 9/10 days old now and the parents are not sitting on them all the time, the smaller one felt quite cold today so I'm keeping a close eye on it. I hope they sit on them overnight.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi pigeonpoo,


You could slip an electric Heating Pad under the Nest Bowl to warm the whole...and to keep the smaller Baby warm.

Exclude drafts of course...

Should help...


Good luck..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks Phil - I had a disaster with the heating pad today! I bought it on EBay - I saw you used them on here and couldn't find them in the UK so had one posted from the States. I've had the larger baby on it several times a day over the past week. Today, I was soo cold after being outside, I grabbed the heating pad just cos it was out there on the table, turned it on high rather than medium, and hugged it to my tum. I smelt burning, checked inside its cover and found the wires had burned through the plastic!! Thank goodness it happened on me and not when the baby was sitting on it!

The gap between the babies is growing - the larger one is feathering nicely, Tiny is still just yellow fluff but, he is maintaining his own heat now and always has a full crop. I have had to replace his ring each day for four days but, today it stayed on so I guess he's growing some. I'll post a photo in another day or so and keep you updated.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

The exact same thing happened with mine. I didn't band my little one until he was 12 days old. I think he'll do just fine. He's just behind and the only time he will "catch up" is when he's fully feathered also and he WILL feather even though it seems he never will. LOL Just will take him a while.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

OK that means yours must have been about the same size as this little one - he's 12 days old and the ring stayed on today for the first time. If I'd more experience I probably wouldn't have kept trying to put it on when he was too small but, I'm frightened of leaving it too late and them being too big. I hate ringing, pulling the fourth toe through. 

I feel better now Lovebirds, if yours made it, there's still hope for this one. A fancier friend came to check them out and said he would cull it, as it will never make a 'good bird'! It doesn't need to be a 'good bird', I just want it to live!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonpoo said:


> OK that means yours must have been about the same size as this little one - he's 12 days old and the ring stayed on today for the first time. If I'd more experience I probably wouldn't have kept trying to put it on when he was too small but, I'm frightened of leaving it too late and them being too big. I hate ringing, pulling the fourth toe through.
> 
> I feel better now Lovebirds, if yours made it, there's still hope for this one. A fancier friend came to check them out and said he would cull it, as it will never make a 'good bird'! It doesn't need to be a 'good bird', I just want it to live!!


I hope you slapped him up side his head!!!!! 
All of the fanciers that we fly with or know, KNOW better than to even say that word in front of me. They don't want to get me started. Most of them would have gotten rid of the little one I had also...........but it lived and is now very comfy/cozy in the bedroom of an 18 girl who loves it to death. That's what it's all about. I knew that my little one would never be able to race and I don't have the room to keep every bird that doesn't have that potential, but that doesn't mean you have to kill them...........
See???? you got me started!!! 
ANYWAY..............back to the baby. He'll be fine. You just watch. May be on the small side but who cares? Can't wait to see the pictures....


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Yep, will post them soon. Thanks.


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## BirdDogg10 (Aug 23, 2005)

pigeonpoo said:


> Ihttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a381/Peckedhen/youngbirds006Small.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Aww they're cute!
> 
> I've always liked runts (pigeons and other animals), they can really tug at your heart strings sometimes.


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## naturegirl (Nov 7, 2005)

Hi Pigeon Poo, I don't think you should worry, if you have a food Scale of some kind and weigh him/her every day that should tell straight up if it is getting the right amount of food and growing. Sometimes the babies are different sizes because one hatches a couple of days before the other but not to worry. If the baby isn't gaining weight or losing then I would step in and start to help suppliment it. Good Luck on your baby and hope everything works well.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Here's the promised photo Lovebirds. Tiny is definitely growing. I'm pretty sure that she's smaller than she should be for her age when I compare her to her peers. She is 14 days old, weighs 152g/5.3oz and her pin feathers are just coming through - I'm feeling quite optimistic for her now though.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What gorgeous babies! Yes, there is quite a size difference, but the little one sure appears to be healthy and doing well.

Terry


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## LondonPigeon (May 10, 2005)

cute fluffy babies


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeonpoo,

Lovely pictures! The little one is catching up to the bigger one nicely,  definitely continue to let the little one eat first. He will catch up just fine as long as big brother or sister can't bully him away at feeding time.

Continue to give mom and dad loads of supportive nutrition, also.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Yes, that baby is small for 14 days but it looks healthy. I think yours is even further behind it's sibling than mine was. I still think it will be ok though. It will just take a while.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Two beautiful babies. The larger one has even progressed more in feather growth than the small one but give Tiny a couple of weeks and he'll develop nicely. They sure are cute.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

COME ON, TINY, YOU CAN DO IT! 

You GO and just show your big brother!


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## WhiteWingsCa (Mar 1, 2002)

Do you have any other nests that have either:

only one baby

or

two babies... but one is smaller than the other?

If only one baby... and it is similar in size to either of these.... put the two similar sized ones in the same nest. The parent will look a little shocked to find two babies where there was one... but should take to 'fostering' the new one (but watch at first to see what happens).

If a second nest with two that are different in size.. again, put the 'similar sized' babies together.

This works really well, but shouldn't be done until the babies are banded (yes, I realize you've already done so... but for future/others' reference  ), so that you still have good breeding records....


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for your replies everyone. 

Thanks Whitewings. Unfortunately, although I have two other pairs on babies, they are all exactly the same age and somewhat larger than these two.

Coincidentally, the three pairs all laid again on the same day and second eggs are due today but, this time, I'm replacing them with plastic eggs......I think!! No, definitely must stop now!!


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## Nooti (Mar 14, 2002)

Hi Sue
just a quick one before I shoot off, further to our telephone discussion, that baby looks paratyphoidy. Has all the classic signs. My suggestion would be a baytril course as I mentioned. Try not to breed from any of them again until the course is finished. I will be flitting in and out today - email me if you want to discuss more. Gotta go - jobs beckon.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Helen, There is no way I will ring you the day before your wedding!! Tiny looks perfectly healthy, she's just.........tiny! If I'm still concerned when you return I'll give you a buzz.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

How's the tiny one doing? Just thought about it for some reason.....


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Thanks for asking Lovebirds. She's coming along well, still smaller than her peers but has feathered up well and holding her own on the loft floor! She quite feisty and will peck and wing-slap if I invade her space. I'll post a photo tomorrow - it's bed time here right now.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Here's Tiny with her nestmate - growing quickly now - she had a bent keel but I've dosed her with calcium and I think that it's straightened.











Isn't she a doll!!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

OMG>>....she's so sweet. I'm so glad she did ok. Good going..........


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

You sure wouldn't know they are siblings. Both of them are beautiful, and I'm so glad Tiny is doing well.

I've never encountered a "bent keel". Could you post more info on this. After all, I always  need one more thing to worry about.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi pigeonpoo,

The babies are so sweet & adorable looking. 

I'm glad the baby is doing well.


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I've never encountered a "bent keel". Could you post more info on this. After all, I always  need one more thing to worry about.


Sorry, I'm afraid that I can't really tell you much more.....and old fancier came to look at the baby for me, he showed me that the keel/breastbone was not straight (it had a bend or curve in it) and advised that I gave half a calcium tablet twice a week to help sort it. He reasoned that a boat with a twisted keel would not cleave through water well, therefore a bird with the same would not fly as well, as one with a straight keel. I've been dosing the bird and, as far as I can see, the keel is now straight.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

You know, this is something that most fanciers "know" about but I for one have never checked to see if any of my birds have a bent keel. I'm not sure, unless it's REALLY bad, that you would even notice it??......especially after the baby is fully feathered........I'll get out my books and see what I can find out about it. It's just one of those things that aren't in the forefront of your mind when examining a bird. Splayed legs, bad feathers, bugs, bad poop.......all of that is "noticeable". Even knowing about bent keels, it never dawned on my that it could effect the flying of the bird..See??? learn something new all the time..........


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't make a difference to speed; all I know is the old man who showed me this, has won first, second and third club in every race this season so, he must be doing something right!!


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## pigeonpoo (Sep 16, 2005)

My friend called to check Tiny and I'm delighted!! Her keel is perfectly straight and she is more than ready to be weaned - actually, I haven't seen her being fed for ages so I guess she has weaned herself. So, she has now joined her peers in the young bird loft - I shall give her the chance to eat on her own, at her pace, as well as joining in the scrum at feeding times!

She made it!!!! 

Thanks everyone for all the advice and support.


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