# emergency!!! please help?!!!



## sweet pigeon (Oct 26, 2015)

Can somebody please help me? I just started my pigeon on canker medicine this morning and realized my pigeon has rice like granules in poop[indicative of tapeworm].Can I deworm my pigeon as early as tomorrow? Is it safe?I need expert advice as I am still grieving for my other pigeon who died a disastrous death three days back as a result of vet's failure to detect canker and the vet experimented on my poor pigeon with four different types of medicines none of which worked eventually [coz they were wrong medicines] and resulted in my poor pigeon's death. Only with the pigeon's death I found out on my own that the little guy suffered from canker. That said, I don't want to take any chance with my beautiful hen. Pl advice. Also, this Friday I want to vaccinate her. And how to proceed with canker treatment? Your replies appreciated!!!


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

welcome to P.T....sorry for the loss...
you cannot do everything at once......tapeworms and vaccination can wait.....first treat for canker and then after some days deworm with praziquantel alone or with combination of ivermectin/pyrantel.
which vaccination are you using and for what?? which state are you from?


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I am so sorry for your loss. I have moved your post to a new thread so it could get more exposure.

How did you come to know she has canker? How are you treating her for canker? How old is the bird? 

Though there are combos available in other countries for worms and canker so probably could be treated altogether but better is to treat her for canker first and then for worms to not cause much stress of medicines on birds, wormers are toxic. If you can get Ranbaxy Garlic oil pearls, it would be good to give that oil poured over the seeds after mixing it well. These are available at human drug stores, can you get them there?


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

sweet pigeon...you sent me a msg but as soon as i clicked on the msg, my profile was opened...and your msg is not even present in my inbox. you need to reply in this thread ....so please rewrite the msg here.


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*First off, how did you know the bird has canker?

Second, while you are giving meds you can use an alternative natural wormer until medicine is done. (DE and/or garlic are two)*


----------



## Gautham (Sep 21, 2015)

Natural wormer?? It would be really helpful if you specify, skyeking...


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

*pl help?!!!*

Thanks to all...for all your replies. Unsuccessfully trying to log in my previous account SWEETPIGEON....all attempts failed so here's my new account. Yesterday my hen vomited out twice whole undigested seeds... I opened her beak and noticed a white layer formation far back in the mouth. So this morning I administered three drops of metronidazole and norfloxacin oral suspension. After a couple of hours....to be double sure I checked her mouth again and this time didn't notice the white layer. As a preventive measure, i gave three drops of the medicine again later in the evening....meanwhile I also added Ranbaxy's garlic pod capsule in her feed....besides giving acv in her drinking water. How long do I need to treat her with the metronidazole as a preventive measure for canker? Also for how many days do I give the garlic oil in her feed as a natural cure for tapeworm treatment? Besides, giving acv in her drinking water daily. Pl advise whether I am doing it right?!!!! My hen is three years old. Looking forward to your suggestions...


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Gautham said:


> Natural wormer?? It would be really helpful if you specify, skyeking...


*http://wolfcreekranch.net/diatomaceous_earth.html

FOOD GRADE DE is a wonderful natural dewormer, put a little mixed in with seed, not much and do not let it get airborne, keeps ants, roaches and cold blooded creatures away if used in nest..


GARLIC 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/the-goodness-of-garlic-12553.html*


----------



## Gautham (Sep 21, 2015)

Thank you skyeking...


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pigeontocherish said:


> Thanks to all...for all your replies. Unsuccessfully trying to log in my previous account SWEETPIGEON....all attempts failed so here's my new account. Yesterday my hen vomited out twice whole undigested seeds... I opened her beak and noticed a white layer formation far back in the mouth. So this morning I administered three drops of metronidazole and norfloxacin oral suspension. After a couple of hours....to be double sure I checked her mouth again and this time didn't notice the white layer. As a preventive measure, i gave three drops of the medicine again later in the evening....meanwhile I also added Ranbaxy's garlic pod capsule in her feed....besides giving acv in her drinking water. How long do I need to treat her with the metronidazole as a preventive measure for canker? Also for how many days do I give the garlic oil in her feed as a natural cure for tapeworm treatment? Besides, giving acv in her drinking water daily. Pl advise whether I am doing it right?!!!! My hen is three years old. Looking forward to your suggestions...


*You should not be administering medicines together without having a diagnosis. Medicines should not be used for prevention, with exception of canker meds (since your bird was exposed to it). The medicines themselves can be causing the crop status, or sour crop and causing your bird not to be able to digest her food.

Garlic clove should be cut up and put in clean drinking water just a few days a week, and organic apple cider vinegar, a few days a week also.

While garlic is a great preventative, you should use a regular wormer once the bird is off all meds to get rid of any heavy infestations, and once the bird is free of worms then use the garlic for prevention..

*


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

pigeontocherish said:


> Thanks to all...for all your replies. Unsuccessfully trying to log in my previous account SWEETPIGEON....all attempts failed so here's my new account. Yesterday my hen vomited out twice whole undigested seeds... I opened her beak and noticed a white layer formation far back in the mouth. So this morning I administered three drops of metronidazole and norfloxacin oral suspension. After a couple of hours....to be double sure I checked her mouth again and this time didn't notice the white layer. As a preventive measure, i gave three drops of the medicine again later in the evening....meanwhile I also added Ranbaxy's garlic pod capsule in her feed....besides giving acv in her drinking water. How long do I need to treat her with the metronidazole as a preventive measure for canker? Also for how many days do I give the garlic oil in her feed as a natural cure for tapeworm treatment? Besides, giving acv in her drinking water daily. Pl advise whether I am doing it right?!!!! My hen is three years old. Looking forward to your suggestions...


White layer could be candida too. Canker is a little off white or yellowish cheesy growth. If candida, it is a fungi and it will increase while wrong administration of antibiotics. 
Norfloxacin is an antibiotic and you don't give metronidazole and Norfloxacin at the same time, better is to give one in morning and one in evening. 

Also you need to understand about the dosage. Metronidazole dosage for an adult pigeon is 50mg per day once for 7-10 days. if canker doesn't clear up, you can extend a little more. You have to see in oral suspension what strength has been mentioned and so to give the right dosage. Best is to buy Flagyl(metronidazole pill) easily available at any human drug store and break the pill into desired dosage and give right down the mouth by opening her beak. 

Norfloxacin too is to be given in right dosage if required. 

Well how's she now? I think she vomited out the seeds because of crop blockage, could be canker or candida. 

Is she still vomiting those undigested seeds?

First of all, we need to know how many mgs she got into her. Second, is she any better now?
Is she eating and drinking on her own? How is her poop? 
Can you feel seeds in her crop in morning? Means she has slow or sour crop? 

About wormers( which was your actual question) , go by the advices given earlier. Once these treatments are over, you can buy Praziquantel(either alone or in combo with ivermectin) and give her for tapeworms.Write here about its strength too so could be guided on dosing.


----------



## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

Agree that your bird might have candida instead of canker. Hope the vomiting of up digested seeds stops. Vomiting might be a symptom of candida in the crop.


----------



## CBL (May 13, 2014)

cwebster said:


> Agree that your bird might have candida instead of canker. Hope the vomiting of up digested seeds stops. Vomiting might be a symptom of candida in the crop.


Minimally treat for canker as THAT also can and does cause vomiting. I just wen thru it. It may very well be internal canker. Cant hurt to treat for it, will only help.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Skyeking said:


> *You should not be administering medicines together without having a diagnosis. Medicines should not be used for prevention, with exception of canker meds (since your bird was exposed to it). The medicines themselves can be causing the crop status, or sour crop and causing your bird not to be able to digest her food.
> 
> Garlic clove should be cut up and put in clean drinking water just a few days a week, and organic apple cider vinegar, a few days a week also.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your valuable info....Will follow your advice...and keep you posted.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

kiddy said:


> White layer could be candida too. Canker is a little off white or yellowish cheesy growth. If candida, it is a fungi and it will increase while wrong administration of antibiotics.
> Norfloxacin is an antibiotic and you don't give metronidazole and Norfloxacin at the same time, better is to give one in morning and one in evening.
> 
> Also you need to understand about the dosage. Metronidazole dosage for an adult pigeon is 50mg per day once for 7-10 days. if canker doesn't clear up, you can extend a little more. You have to see in oral suspension what strength has been mentioned and so to give the right dosage. Best is to buy Flagyl(metronidazole pill) easily available at any human drug store and break the pill into desired dosage and give right down the mouth by opening her beak.
> ...


Thank you so much for your valuable info....First of all the only medicine I could find quickest within my reach was metronidazole & norfloxacin[added together 100mg+100mg] 30 ml oral suspension for canker and I happened to administer 3 drops in the morning+3 drops in the evening. Do I need to stop this and buy both[metronidazole and norfloxacin] separately?The white layer seems to have disappeared...and she has stopped vomiting. Her poop seems normal...and she seems better now. She is eating and drinking on her own. Will monitor her...and keep you posted.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

cwebster said:


> Agree that your bird might have candida instead of canker. Hope the vomiting of up digested seeds stops. Vomiting might be a symptom of candida in the crop.


Thank you for your valuable info...her vomiting has stopped now....Will keep posted.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

CBL said:


> Minimally treat for canker as THAT also can and does cause vomiting. I just wen thru it. It may very well be internal canker. Cant hurt to treat for it, will only help.


Thanks CBL!


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> welcome to P.T....sorry for the loss...
> you cannot do everything at once......tapeworms and vaccination can wait.....first treat for canker and then after some days deworm with praziquantel alone or with combination of ivermectin/pyrantel.
> which vaccination are you using and for what?? which state are you from?


Thank you for your valuable info...I live in Chennai...I have no idea regarding what kind of vaccination it is...the only thing I know that in the vet hospital they said it boosts immunity and I must do it every six months....my bird was vaccinated this feb ...since its overdue I thought it would be wise not to delay further. Do you think ZENTEL oral suspension is a good dewormer? Thx.


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

no, zentel dewormer [albendazol] is toxic to pigeons. you need to get praziquantel to target tapeworms.
whats the brand name of the medicine your are using?? it seems wonderful med to have on hand...in emergency it will help to treat canker as well as bacterial infections if given correct dose...is it for humans or pets??


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

pigeontocherish said:


> Thank you so much for your valuable info....First of all the only medicine I could find quickest within my reach was metronidazole & norfloxacin[added together 100mg+100mg] 30 ml oral suspension for canker and I happened to administer 3 drops in the morning+3 drops in the evening. Do I need to stop this and buy both[metronidazole and norfloxacin] separately?The white layer seems to have disappeared...and she has stopped vomiting. Her poop seems normal...and she seems better now. She is eating and drinking on her own. Will monitor her...and keep you posted.


If she is responding to treatment and seems better then do it for 7-10 days and keep monitoring her.

For the dosing I couldn't actually get how many mgs she got in 3 drops. It is 30 ml syrup I understand but then only 100 mgs of each medicine in 30 ml? It won't be probably. 

For strength it mentions like * mgs/* ml. Do you see something like that on bottle?
Don't want to bother you if you are doing well with the medicines, just wanted to share how the dosage is to be calculated.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Nare J said:


> no, zentel dewormer [albendazol] is toxic to pigeons. you need to get praziquantel to target tapeworms.
> whats the brand name of the medicine your are using?? it seems wonderful med to have on hand...in emergency it will help to treat canker as well as bacterial infections if given correct dose...is it for humans or pets??


Agree with Naresh. Don't give Albendazole to pigeons. Praziquantel you will get at pet stores, not at human drug stores. Get it from a vet or a pet store. They usually have Praziquantel in combos with ivermectin or if you can get only Praziquantel, everything will do.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

kiddy said:


> If she is responding to treatment and seems better then do it for 7-10 days and keep monitoring her.
> 
> For the dosing I couldn't actually get how many mgs she got in 3 drops. It is 30 ml syrup I understand but then only 100 mgs of each medicine in 30 ml? It won't be probably.
> 
> ...


So grateful for all your help, you are not bothering me but HELPING ME! I checked the bottle METRONIDAZOLE & NORFLOXACIN SUSPENSION 30 ml
Each 5 ml contains: METRONIDAZOLE....100MG NORFLOXACIN....100MG

[this is how it appears in the bottle]
this medicine is recommended for babies and I have been giving her 3 drops of this medicine in a dropper. The first day [before my first post ] I gave her 3 drops in the morning +3 drops in the evening. On the 2nd day and 3rd day[today] I gave her 3 drops only in the morning since I didn't want to overdose. I followed your advise and added a garlic oil pearl in the feed yesterday and today. Yesterday inspite of the garlic oil pearl she finished almost all her feed[ also I did not notice any tapeworm in her poop].Today she refused to eat her feed mixed with garlic oil pearl. Also today her poop seems more greenish than yesterday. Otherwise, she appears okay. Shall I add garlic pod in her drinking water from tomorrow since she refused her feed today mixed with garlic oil? Earlier till 1st day of starting canker treatment I gave her acv mixed in her drinking water. I stopped that from yesterday on the kind advise here on the forum. Also, I forgot to mention earlier, she laid her eggs 7 days back. Because of this, I had been giving her CALCIMUST PET LIQUID everyday and broken egg shells till she laid her eggs. Pl let me know whether I am giving her the right dosage of canker medicine? Also your advise regarding the calcium supplement. Thank you so much!


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> no, zentel dewormer [albendazol] is toxic to pigeons. you need to get praziquantel to target tapeworms.
> whats the brand name of the medicine your are using?? it seems wonderful med to have on hand...in emergency it will help to treat canker as well as bacterial infections if given correct dose...is it for humans or pets??


Thanks for your response! As mentioned to kiddy,The medicine for canker that I am using is called metronidazole and norfloxacin suspension 30ml.Its for human babies.
I am happy for the info you gave me abt zentel [this was given by my pet's vet ...the vet who experimented on my poor pigeon with 4 diff drugs resulting in his death].Relieved I sought your advise and decided not to use it for my hen.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Can you get the Metro and Enro in separate tablets or liquids? The bird will need about 50 mg once daily if an adult. He will also need probably 10 mg of the Enro once daily. You can do one in the am and one in the afternoon or evening. Metronidazole can also make him vomit so it is better to feed him first, then medicate with the Metro. Canker can make them vomit whether there is a blockage or not. 
Having the 2 meds combined in one suspension means that to get enough of the Metro, he will be getting too much of the other. That will harm him. Please don't use it. 
Garlic and herbs aren't going to get rid of tapeworm, but he can be wormed when you are done with the other meds.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Then three drops isn't sufficient for canker treatment but could be sufficient for infection if any . For canker she needs 2.5 ml medicine as then it will be 50 mg. But if you give 2.5 ml of Medicine it will be overdosing for norfloxacin coz you need to give 10-15 mg of norfloxacin only. 

Best is to buy both of them separate. Also metronidazole is easily available in pills so shouldn't be given 2.5 ml in mouth because it can aspirate the bird. 

Note:
The medicine which is easily available in pills and can be broken into required dosage should be bought in tablet form always so to not aspirate the bird. Aspiration is life threatening.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Wouldn't give him 15 mg of Enro. It's usually 10 mg or less depending on his weight.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

It is not enrofloxacin actually, it is norfloxacin and its dosage for birds I couldn't find anywhere. Even ciprofloxacin dosage is a bit higher than enrofloxacin. Though I think three drops is sufficient what is being given. Can't know about accurate dosage until find an authentic source. 

www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/exotic_a...et_birds/bacterial_diseases_of_pet_birds.html


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Norfloxacin is 10 mg once daily.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Will be switching to the tablets following your suggestion. Is metronidazole tablet on its own not good enough for canker treatment ?Must norfloxacin be combined along metro for the treatment? Also since its the first time I plan to give the medicine in powder form....I assume that I administer the required dosage down first in her mouth and then offer some water? Or do I add a bit of water in powdered medicine?


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Metronidazole is what needed for canker treatment. Flagyl is just a brand name which contains same metronidazole. Buy 200 mg metronidazole, break it into four pieces. 1 piece (50 mg) per day is the dosage for canker. If you get it of any other strength, calculate and break the pill accordingly. 

Norfloxacin I think will be sufficient in 3 drops. To be accurate it is 0.5 ml (if the strength is 100 mg/5 ml and the dosage of norfloxacin for pigeons is 10 mg). If you buy some other strength, write it here for dosing or calculate yourself. 

You can measure .5 ml in a syringe. You can just buy a 5 ml syringe (will be for Rps 5 I think) and whenever you need to measure you can measure by it. Once you know how many drops in that particular measurement, you won't need to measure it in syringe also. 
You can ask again if anything confused you. 

And yes I would never give medicine in powdered form, it can easily choke them. 
Just give the broken pill down the throat. 
If the bird flaps a lot, wrap him in a towel and then open his beak and put the medicine and slide down the throat. It is very easy to administer in pills form rather in powder. 

If you find it difficult, I can explain more but just give pill down the throat.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks! Will try this out. I got the norfloxacin 400 mg[tablet], couldn't get anything less than that. I understand norfloxacin must be given 10 mg. Could you pl guide me how to go about it? Will oral suspension do instead of the tablet?


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

You can't break norfloxacin into 40 pieces and if you try too,it will go wrong because medicine is not equally distributed through out the tablet. You have to give oral suspension for norfloxacin by calculating the actual dosage as per the strength. 

Until you find the medicine, you don't have to stop your treatment which you are giving already. If 7 days have been done with norfloxacin, you may stop the treatment tho.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Yesterday I completed the canker treatment for my pigeon. She has been refusing to drink water with garlic added to it. Again today I noticed tape worm in her poop. How soon can I treat her with praziquantel to rid her off tapeworm? Also, I enquired in the pet shop for this medicine "praziquantel" and they offered me a tablet containing praziquantel,pyrantel pamoate,fenbendazole [combined together in a single tablet] and said this medicine [praziquantel] is apt for 10 kg dog.
Could you pl let me know whether this PRAZIQUANTEL is the medicine you referred for tapeworm for my pigeon? If not, then the name under which it is sold? Also, the required dosage of the medicine for tapeworm for a pigeon? Appreciate your replies!


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

You may have to look for it at another pet store. Go for the one which doesn't have fenbendazole and albendazole. Praziquantel along with ivermectin or pyrantel Pamoate will be fine. What I got here was ipraz (brand name) which contained ivermectin +Praziquantel. If you get a 50 mg Praziquantel pill you will divide it into 4 equal parts and then each one into 2 again, so to make them 8 equal parts, you will give one piece to one bird on empty stomach in morning(down the throat) . 
Here is how a senior member Jass advised me on how to administer Praziquantel:

"A pigeon needs 6mg prazi and 0.35mg ivermectin.
Feed your pigeons lightly in the evening kiddy and give water to drink throught night. Then give the mentioned dosage next morning individually on empty crop and do not let them drink or feed. Then give water to drink after 2 hours but don't feed anything. Feed after 4 pm. You can repeat the process for 2 consecutive days as tapeworms aren't easy to target.
Treat all your birds at the same time. Repeat the whole deworming process after 21 days gap thrice, to get rid of tapes.
After deworming,give multivitamins in water the next day"

Here is the source page link :

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/my-...n-77205-5.html


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

You can buy Ranbaxy Garlic oil pearls from human drug store and pour the oil from the capsule over their seeds and mix well and give them to eat.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pigeontocherish said:


> Yesterday I completed the canker treatment for my pigeon. She has been refusing to drink water with garlic added to it. Again today I noticed tape worm in her poop. How soon can I treat her with praziquantel to rid her off tapeworm? Also, I enquired in the pet shop for this medicine "praziquantel" and they offered me a tablet containing praziquantel,pyrantel pamoate,fenbendazole [combined together in a single tablet] and said this medicine [praziquantel] is apt for 10 kg dog.
> Could you pl let me know whether this PRAZIQUANTEL is the medicine you referred for tapeworm for my pigeon? If not, then the name under which it is sold? Also, the required dosage of the medicine for tapeworm for a pigeon? Appreciate your replies!


I hope you have stopped adding the garlic to the drinking water. Would you want to drink that? If she isn't drinking enough then she will have more problems. Better she gets water she will drink. The garlic isn't going to do much anyway.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

kiddy said:


> You may have to look for it at another pet store. Go for the one which doesn't have fenbendazole and albendazole. Praziquantel along with ivermectin or pyrantel Pamoate will be fine. What I got here was ipraz (brand name) which contained ivermectin +Praziquantel. If you get a 50 mg Praziquantel pill you will divide it into 4 equal parts and then each one into 2 again, so to make them 8 equal parts, you will give one piece to one bird on empty stomach in morning(down the throat) .
> Here is how a senior member Jass advised me on how to administer Praziquantel:
> 
> "A pigeon needs 6mg prazi and 0.35mg ivermectin.
> ...


Thanks....trying my best to find the mentioned pill. Will it be alright to treat her for tapeworm early next week since only day before yesterday her canker treatment got over? How many days gap should be given before treating her for tapeworm?


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

After the canker treatment[ that got over 2 days back]I am seeing that my pigeon's poop is surrounded by lot of water/fluid although the poop on it's own is almost solid. Why is this? Do I need to give her probiotics? Also, 'coz my hen's molting, she has very dry skin. Can I give her cod liver oil in addition to groundnuts and flax seeds that am adding to her regular seed diet. I have stopped giving her garlic[ that was advised for tapeworm while she was on canker treatment] altogether...added in her feed or her drinking water as she didn't develop liking for it and stopped eating her feed and drinking water when garlic was added to either to it.
Look forward to your response. Thx.


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes they should get probiotics after antibiotics because antibiotics kill good gut bacteria too along with harmful microorganisms. If you can get any poultry store, buy some probiotics for poultry (we can hardly get probiotics for pigeons here) , if you get nothing for animals, buy human probiotics and just add a pinch in her water. 

Yes you can medicate for tapeworms after giving them probiotics. I think no time line is defined, we just don't have to stress them with many medicines all together so just a couple of days gap is sufficient when they seem to better and their poop seems well. 

Garlic oil pearls are very useful in feed, if not now, you can give them after all the treatments are over. Eventually they will eat those seeds and that is a very good preventive natural thing to build up immunity in birds. I find it really very good for my birds and I give them twice or at least a week. Earlier they didn't like it but they started eating in a few attempts.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Garlic really isn't necessary, and you do know that too much can be harmful, right?


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't think it is harmful. When i bought 50 chicken babies from government centre(here they call them poultry blocks), they prescribed us to raise them on chopped garlic as much as we can give them and they grew up very strong babies and very immune to diseases. That was a great experience with garlic. 
I was seeing bald areas in my baby pigeon while molting, I supplied him with garlic oil regularly in feed for a few days and Vitamins, he grew up nice feathered very fast while I wondered for long before using garlic that how long he will have these patches.

Jass also gives them garlic pearls weekly and he told me a girl from India uses the same on alternate days and his pigeons never had diseases. Garlic help them in building strong immunity. Also I haven't read any drawbacks of using garlic online. If you get to know anything, I am open to change my opinion. 
Till now my experience has been very good with garlic. 

You may have not used it but it is really good for them as far my experience is and I monitor closely.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

hi every1. kiddy where did you buy the garlic pearls? i couldnt find them in human drug stores. i asked for ranbaxy garlic pearls, do they come in small quantity


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

ok got it after searching at other stores. bottle is 1 year old but still has about 1 year to expire. i think 1 cap for 6 pigeons will be perfect. i cant add it in their feed as i give them feed all the time available. but theres one way. i give them chickpeas seperatly, as they love it, and use it to control them. i can add 1 cap in 1 tablespoon of peas and give it to 6 pigeons once a week. is it right??


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

I give oil from one capsule to four pigeons mixing it in almost 2 handful of seeds in morning weekly. I too keep their seeds available for them all the time and add new seeds in evening without garlic oil.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

can garlic pearls be given during breeding ? i just tried to puncture a capsule to see what the oil in it smells like. its very strong as compared to garlic cloves.i got a little on hand and even after washing smell didnt go.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

ok i have decided to use garlic pearls only when they are not breeding, with the dose 1 pearl for 4 pigeons. i will give garlic water when they are breeding..will that do?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

*Garlic is a wonderful preventative against disease, and it has proved to me to have many beneficial side effects, just make sure the garlic caps are pure and do not give to a young bird under 2 months of age. *


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

oh i didnt knew that, i have a pair with 7 day old baby...i gave them some garlic oil from the pearls, in their feed, though baby seems fine. skyeking, i read that garlic some what also kills good bacteria too, so probiotics are to be used after giiving garlic. but i dont use any probiotic, is that okay? and i read ur many post about using human probitoics can you name some brands of human probios you recommend to use and maybe i could find in india?


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

1 pearl has 4 drops so per pigeon 1 drop once a week is correct dose. can i seperate the 1 dose into half and give them garlic twice a week? i.e 1 pearls for 8 pigeons twice weekly? so that pigeons dont start ignoring feed due to strong smell.


----------



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Hi Sinu Jan. If the smell of garlic capsules is really strong, I suggest you use fresh garlic pods instead. Just put some holes in a garlic pod and put it in their drinking water. Make sure you change the water once they have drunk in the morning. You can do this maybe once a week, as a preventive. 
Human probiotics are available in sachets, for adults and kids. I buy the one for kids..it comes in different brand names. There is also one yogurt-based probiotic that is quite well-known in India...Yakult (I haven't used this though).


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

smell is strong but pigeons seems to like it now. i was just adding too much oil to little feed. now i will be adding 1 cap in 2 handful of feed, 2-3 times a week. 
can you pleaseeee give some more details about the probiotics you are using, like brand name, dosage, how many times a week?


----------



## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

sinu jan said:


> 1 pearl has 4 drops so per pigeon 1 drop once a week is correct dose. can i seperate the 1 dose into half and give them garlic twice a week? i.e 1 pearls for 8 pigeons twice weekly? so that pigeons dont start ignoring feed due to strong smell.


*I would be careful putting it over their seed, as the strong smell might keep them from eating it. However, if they like it, twice a week is okay. How do you know each bird is getting a drop, do you put it in separate feeders?

I have actually given whole garlic caps/pearls orally (slick down with a drop of neem oil) to rehab birds, until they were better, never had any negative effect. I do not recommend if you have never done this. *


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

i put 2 pearls in 2 handful of feed and let my 8 pigeons eat it.so i know every pigeon is atleast getting a drop of oil. they usually finish it in no time. at first they ignore the feed but later they started enjoying the taste of garlic. with this dose i think only once a week is enough?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Garlic can be over done so I would just be careful.
Interesting read
http://forum.pigeonbasics.com/topic/52176-garlic-kills-pigeons/
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-nutrition/birds-onions-and-garlic.aspx


----------



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I lost the name of the one meant for Kids. Right now I have sachets of ZEEGUT-Z.


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

hii kunju i checked online, zeegut are capsules, whats the dose??? i too would like to use probiotics, i brought tablets meant for livestock but i thing they are not of much use!


----------



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

I have sachets of Zeegut-Z. I just sprinkle a very small amount in the drinking water, maybe like one-twelfth of a sachet. I honestly don't know the required dosage, someone else can help maybe. I give it for a few days after an antibiotic course for a sick pigeon.

All medical shops over here, have probiotics in sachets, one brand or the other. Please ask around and you will surely get some brand.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

okay kunju i find ask and inform here, can i use human probitoics weekly?


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes you can.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

kiddy said:


> You may have to look for it at another pet store. Go for the one which doesn't have fenbendazole and albendazole. Praziquantel along with ivermectin or pyrantel Pamoate will be fine. What I got here was ipraz (brand name) which contained ivermectin +Praziquantel. If you get a 50 mg Praziquantel pill you will divide it into 4 equal parts and then each one into 2 again, so to make them 8 equal parts, you will give one piece to one bird on empty stomach in morning(down the throat) .
> Here is how a senior member Jass advised me on how to administer Praziquantel:
> 
> "A pigeon needs 6mg prazi and 0.35mg ivermectin.
> ...


After 3 days of probiotics followed by another 3 days of BIRD PLUS[ vitamins and minerals] my pigeon seems to have picked up her health. Also new feathers are coming up now and she's almost covered up in new feathers[ except below her beak and front portion of her neck] and does not have that much of dry skin.Will it be alright to treat her for tapeworm tomorrow? When you say the water to be given after one hour of the medicine during the treatment for tapeworm, I assume that means plain water - am I right? Finally, I managed to get IPRAZ. 
After typing this part of the post...I suddenly noticed that she stretched her neck in an awkward fashion[ not yawning exactly] four times and am worried. I have not seen her do that before. Almost a week has passed since I treated her for canker. Immediately I opened her beak and checked the mouth. It seems clear to me. Can the stretching of the neck reflect respiratory illness? She seems to be okay otherwise. Also since she's growing new feathers in the neck region...is the stretching of the neck- a possibility? SHE IS HEAVILY INFESTED WITH TAPEWORM...can that be a possibility too[ neck stretching]? I had been waiting after her canker treatment to treat her for tapeworm. Will it be alright to go ahead with the treatment? IPRAZ is a thick tablet. Kiddy pl let me know if the thickness of the tablet [ after breaking it into 8 equal parts] not bother the bird? What has been your experience in administering this tablet to your pigeons? Since this is the first time I am not very comfortable.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

can i please know which probiotic you are using???


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

sinu jan said:


> can i please know which probiotic you are using???


probiotic for dogs.


----------



## sinu jan (May 24, 2014)

can i know the brand name of this probitoic?


----------



## kiddy (Feb 5, 2015)

pigeontocherish said:


> After 3 days of probiotics followed by another 3 days of BIRD PLUS[ vitamins and minerals] my pigeon seems to have picked up her health. Also new feathers are coming up now and she's almost covered up in new feathers[ except below her beak and front portion of her neck] and does not have that much of dry skin.Will it be alright to treat her for tapeworm tomorrow? When you say the water to be given after one hour of the medicine during the treatment for tapeworm, I assume that means plain water - am I right? Finally, I managed to get IPRAZ.
> After typing this part of the post...I suddenly noticed that she stretched her neck in an awkward fashion[ not yawning exactly] four times and am worried. I have not seen her do that before. Almost a week has passed since I treated her for canker. Immediately I opened her beak and checked the mouth. It seems clear to me. Can the stretching of the neck reflect respiratory illness? She seems to be okay otherwise. Also since she's growing new feathers in the neck region...is the stretching of the neck- a possibility? SHE IS HEAVILY INFESTED WITH TAPEWORM...can that be a possibility too[ neck stretching]? I had been waiting after her canker treatment to treat her for tapeworm. Will it be alright to go ahead with the treatment? IPRAZ is a thick tablet. Kiddy pl let me know if the thickness of the tablet [ after breaking it into 8 equal parts] not bother the bird? What has been your experience in administering this tablet to your pigeons? Since this is the first time I am not very comfortable.


No, nothing will bother her. Just give 1/8th of the pill down the throat. You can treat her now if the canker treatment is over. 
Do you still see neck stretching, I couldn't actually get if it looks odd? 
Yes that's plain water, I wouldn't give anything else during treatment and would give vitamins the next day. 
Keep us posted on how it goes.

P.S. Just a pinch of probiotics in water should be fine. They need good gut bacteria and they will get them through it.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

sinu jan said:


> can i know the brand name of this probitoic?


Don't be worried about the brand name. Go to a pet shop and ask them. Whatever is available take it because here in India we don't get all brands prescribed abroad.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

*Emergency!!! please help?!!!*

Finally with much struggle...somehow managed to administer the 1/8 of IRAZ[ to break the pill into 8 parts in itself is a feat...so glad IPRAZ comes in a set of two...at least the one I bought...'coz the 2nd tablet broke into bits in my attempt to break it into 8 parts]. Followed the advise and offered her water to drink after 2 hours which she refused. Would you believe it, she vomited out tapeworms from her mouth and off course the rest came out in her poop.
I have also noticed that the her awkward neck stretching [ call it trying to swallow or yawning] have almost disappeared with her tapeworm treatment. So I think awkward neck stretching might have been because of excessive tapeworm. Can't think of any thing else since I have already treated her with metronidazole + norfloxacin[ for canker].Another problem [ too much liquid/water around the poop...though the poop on it's own is solid] seems to have improved[ with the help of probiotics, I see now that the water around her poop has lessened. Now I am looking forward to vaccinate her. Will that be a wise decision since I've treated her for tapeworm with IPRAZ?
Also, please advise me regarding the feed I should be giving her since she's an egg laying hen. Since I treated her for canker in the week before last, I have not been giving her calcium supplement[ CALCIMUST] at all + the crushed egg shell. She has been recommended 10 drops of CALCIMUST everyday. Also, should I give her mineral everyday? If I add these in her feed will it be alright to give her acv drinking water or probiotics in her drinking water alongside? I need to know about the garlic too. If I add a drop of garlic oil in her feed can I give her acv or probiotics in her drinking water alongside? Pl advise. I am thankful to all for your response and Kiddy deserves a special mention for guiding me step by step and not a moment passes when I regret for not turning to you all instead of the vet whose experimentation resulted in my male pigeon's death. I believe, if only I had turned to this forum instead of the vet my pigeon would still be alive.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

pigeontocherish said:


> Finally with much struggle...somehow managed to administer the 1/8 of IRAZ[ to break the pill into 8 parts in itself is a feat...so glad IPRAZ comes in a set of two...at least the one I bought...'coz the 2nd tablet broke into bits in my attempt to break it into 8 parts]. Followed the advise and offered her water to drink after 2 hours which she refused. Would you believe it, she vomited out tapeworms from her mouth and off course the rest came out in her poop.
> I have also noticed that the her awkward neck stretching [ call it trying to swallow or yawning] have almost disappeared with her tapeworm treatment. So I think awkward neck stretching might have been because of excessive tapeworm. Can't think of any thing else since I have already treated her with metronidazole + norfloxacin[ for canker].Another problem [ too much liquid/water around the poop...though the poop on it's own is solid] seems to have improved[ with the help of probiotics, I see now that the water around her poop has lessened. Now I am looking forward to vaccinate her. Will that be a wise decision since I've treated her for tapeworm with IPRAZ?
> Also, please advise me regarding the feed I should be giving her since she's an egg laying hen. Since I treated her for canker in the week before last, I have not been giving her calcium supplement[ CALCIMUST] at all + the crushed egg shell. She has been recommended 10 drops of CALCIMUST everyday. Also, should I give her mineral everyday? If I add these in her feed will it be alright to give her acv drinking water or probiotics in her drinking water alongside? I need to know about the garlic too. If I add a drop of garlic oil in her feed can I give her acv or probiotics in her drinking water alongside? Pl advise. I am thankful to all for your response and Kiddy deserves a special mention for guiding me step by step and not a moment passes when I regret for not turning to you all instead of the vet whose experimentation resulted in my male pigeon's death. I believe, if only I had turned to this forum instead of the vet my pigeon would still be alive.


COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE ADVISE? THANK YOU. I AM ONLY ASKING BECAUSE I NEED TO KNOW FOR THE WELL BEING OF MY PIGEON.


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

calcium, vitamin, garlic , probitoics everything should be give on seperate days with one day gaps. i dont know much about vaccination but lasota vaccine is easily available vaccine used in india


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> calcium, vitamin, garlic , probitoics everything should be give on seperate days with one day gaps. i dont know much about vaccination but lasota vaccine is easily available vaccine used in india


Thanks Naresh !!! Will follow your advise. Any special diet you follow for your egg laying pigeons?


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

i give calcium pills [cipcal 500] to the hens who are ready to lay!!


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Skyeking said:


> *You should not be administering medicines together without having a diagnosis. Medicines should not be used for prevention, with exception of canker meds (since your bird was exposed to it). The medicines themselves can be causing the crop status, or sour crop and causing your bird not to be able to digest her food.
> 
> Garlic clove should be cut up and put in clean drinking water just a few days a week, and organic apple cider vinegar, a few days a week also.
> 
> ...


My pigeon has been passing lot of water in the poop after successfully recovering from canker.The poop on its own is normal but surrounded by lot of water. Does this have anything to do with the kidney? Pl advise. Thank you.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> i give calcium pills [cipcal 500] to the hens who are ready to lay!!


Thanks...but now my hen has got another problem. Because of too much water in her poop which I suspect is some kind of kidney infection I have stopped giving her calcium and protein also the grit. After removing the same and adding a drop of garlic oil in her feed,I noticed the water in her poop has reduced. Now I am in a fix...as she wants to lay eggs. I am giving her ragi, bajra, whole mung dal,wheat, carrot and giving aloe vera in drinking water? How do I supplement her with calcium naturally since I cannot give her either calcium medicine[CALCIMUST] or crushed egg shells? I tried google for help but did not come across even a single article on this issue


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

according to me, watery poops are never a problem until the pigeons behaves normally and active. maybe probiotics will cover it up. if she is preparing to lay, you need supplement calcium.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> according to me, watery poops are never a problem until the pigeons behaves normally and active. maybe probiotics will cover it up. if she is preparing to lay, you need supplement calcium.


Thanks Naresh for your prompt reply.Sorry for not being clear enough...what I mean is the poop in itself is not watery what I mean is she is passing out lot of water along with the poop. I gave her probiotics and her poop became more solid but the water she's been passing along with the poop continued though it appeared to have reduced. After stopping the probiotics the problem came back and today I took out the calcium and protein as precautionary measure. Per your advise I will give her calcium supplement may be just 2 drops and continue aloe in her drinking water. Can probiotics be mixed along with aloe and given in drinking water?


----------



## TerryQui (Oct 3, 2012)

I am late here and someone may have mentioned it, but I use all natural when ever possible. Orageno oil is a natural antibiotic that does not cause candida and in fact it kills it. 
Food grade Diotomacheous earth is the best wormer possible and safest. Mix it in the food or feed layer pellets mixed in your food as a prevention. Layer pellets for chickens has D-earth in it.


----------



## naresh j (Jun 27, 2014)

pigeontocherish- probiotics should be given alone......oh yeah, why did i forgot to tell you.....that watery poops are completely normal when hens are preparing to lay, theres nothing to worry about. give her calcium alone, she will be fine. whats that protein stuff?? too much of protein can cause problems


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

TerryQui said:


> I am late here and someone may have mentioned it, but I use all natural when ever possible. Orageno oil is a natural antibiotic that does not cause candida and in fact it kills it.
> Food grade Diotomacheous earth is the best wormer possible and safest. Mix it in the food or feed layer pellets mixed in your food as a prevention. Layer pellets for chickens has D-earth in it.


 Terry grateful for your contribution..when you say Orageno oil are you referring to Oregano oil? How do you use it? How many drops of this oil do you give and how many times a week? Can DE earth be given daily in the feed along with crushed egg shell? Look forward to your reply. Thanks


----------



## TerryQui (Oct 3, 2012)

I use it for myself. Three drops under my tongue three times a day will kill a bladder infection and it is awesome for healing the gut. But you don't stay on that dose longer then two weeks. I don't know a dose for a bird. I just know it works in humans. I read you can use it in dogs. So why not birds? I would research it though. Yes Oregano oil.
DE earth can be given safely daily and in fact I take that myself daily also. It kills parasites and candida.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Nare J said:


> pigeontocherish- probiotics should be given alone......oh yeah, why did i forgot to tell you.....that watery poops are completely normal when hens are preparing to lay, theres nothing to worry about. give her calcium alone, she will be fine. whats that protein stuff?? too much of protein can cause problems


I meant protein containing seeds like wheat, etc. I started giving her seeds also calcium supplement in her feed. Now she has laid her first egg.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

TerryQui said:


> I use it for myself. Three drops under my tongue three times a day will kill a bladder infection and it is awesome for healing the gut. But you don't stay on that dose longer then two weeks. I don't know a dose for a bird. I just know it works in humans. I read you can use it in dogs. So why not birds? I would research it though. Yes Oregano oil.
> DE earth can be given safely daily and in fact I take that myself daily also. It kills parasites and candida.


Thanks Terry. Can i give crushed egg shell along with DE earth daily?


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Hi all,

My pigeon laid her second egg. Two days before egg laying, she suddenly had temporary paralysis on her wings, was also staggering. Also her poop[ though firm] was surrounded by lot of water. I suspected PMV.I began to give her calcium liquid supplement and she laid her eggs fine. I followed with electrolyte, multi vitamins and now give her calcium supplement [ 4 drops everyday] along with aloe in her drinking water. Her excessive thirst has come down but the poop is still surrounded by water. Also she appears to get tired easily and prefers to sit more. Though I give her 4 drops of calcium supplement , it looks to me she is still deficient of calcium.I have read in PMV its important to give probiotics. I have few questions:
1. How can I give her probiotics in drinking water when I am adding 4 drops of calcium supplement in her feed since probiotics should not be given with medicine? Though its a calcium supplement, isn't it medicine?
2.Can I add carrot juice along with aloe in drinking water to build immunity?
3.Is it alright to switch her drinking water[ once with aloe and next with probiotics] at any given time of the day[ along with her feed].Pl help me as I don't know but want to learn and do everything for the best for my pigeon. Thank you.


----------



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Let's look at this another way..Sometimes pigeons when they lay eggs it makes a certain nerve in their legs and body get inflamed for a few days or even for over a week sometimes and this paralysis them and it looks like PMV because they can only flip their wings and not be able to walk for awhile...Check into this and I think that this is what it is.. Their pooping is quite messy as well and do not jump to conclusions unless you get a firm diagnosis on this affair...Just some thoughts for you to think about..With my scenio all you need to to give the pigeon rest and its normal diet..


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

What is it that you are giving for calcium? Does it have vitamin D3? And why are you giving aloe?
You don't have to add the calcium every day. A couple of times a week would probably be fine, but it should contain vit. D3 as well or the bird can't use the calcium. Wild birds are outside in the sun and get vit. D3 from the sun. But if your bird is kept inside most of the time, then they need it in the supplement.
It's antibiotics that you wouldn't add the probiotics with. You would give them afterwards. But only for a few days following treatment. Other than that, you could give them once a week would be okay. Carrot juice isn't to build immunity. They sometimes do like raw carrots minced up small. And they are good for them.
People want to put so many things into their birds, and half the time don't even know why. Do you give your bird a high calcium grit?


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

Jay3 said:


> What is it that you are giving for calcium? Does it have vitamin D3? And why are you giving aloe?
> You don't have to add the calcium every day. A couple of times a week would probably be fine, but it should contain vit. D3 as well or the bird can't use the calcium. Wild birds are outside in the sun and get vit. D3 from the sun. But if your bird is kept inside most of the time, then they need it in the supplement.
> It's antibiotics that you wouldn't add the probiotics with. You would give them afterwards. But only for a few days following treatment. Other than that, you could give them once a week would be okay. Carrot juice isn't to build immunity. They sometimes do like raw carrots minced up small. And they are good for them.
> People want to put so many things into their birds, and half the time don't even know why. Do you give your bird a high calcium grit?


Thanks for your response.I have been giving her liquid calcium with vitamin D3. Stopped the supplement from today. I was asked to give this supplement 10 drops everyday because of poor egg shell quality. I thought recommended 10 drops of the supplement was too high so started giving her 4 drops instead. I give her DELI NATURE' grit [96.5% raw ashes, 14.5% calcium, 0.33% sodium, 0.05% phosphorous]3 times a day along with her feed. Is this sufficient for a calcium deficient pigeon? I am interested to supplement calcium naturally in her diet and wean her off the medicine.
With PMV like symptoms I started including aloe in her drinking water because of it's healing properties. Stopped that today.Somewhere in this forum came across goodness of carrots so gave her carrots today in water. Tried Probiotics that firms up the droppings but does not reduce the pool of liquid around it.. that's the problem I need a solution for.


----------



## pigeontocherish (Oct 26, 2015)

c.hert said:


> Let's look at this another way..Sometimes pigeons when they lay eggs it makes a certain nerve in their legs and body get inflamed for a few days or even for over a week sometimes and this paralysis them and it looks like PMV because they can only flip their wings and not be able to walk for awhile...Check into this and I think that this is what it is.. Their pooping is quite messy as well and do not jump to conclusions unless you get a firm diagnosis on this affair...Just some thoughts for you to think about..With my scenio all you need to to give the pigeon rest and its normal diet..


Appreciate your reply.Supplementing her with calcium in the beginning seemed to have helped her but her poop [ firm] in a pool of liquid is my concern. Speaking of poop[I am not referring to before and right after egg laying messy poop] but day to day poop. I have tried probiotics[ did not reduce the pool of liquid [aloe and carrots [helped in reduction of liquid].After my bad experience with the vet 's experimentation on my poor pigeon that cost his life, I am not prepared to take any chance this time. Here they don't seem to have expertise in regard to pigeons and are only interested in treatment of dogs.
I am confused as to what kind of drinking water to give her that will take care of this problem?


----------



## kunju (Mar 14, 2012)

Is the bird active with alert eyes, preening itself, behaving normally? If so, I would suggest to forget the poop issue and let her own system take care of it. Just like us, they also do not eat and poop perfectly every day. Most problems get sorted out on their own in a matter of days or weeks. If she is visibly ill, then of course we need to help her with medicines.


----------



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pigeontocherish said:


> Thanks for your response.I have been giving her liquid calcium with vitamin D3. Stopped the supplement from today. I was asked to give this supplement 10 drops everyday because of poor egg shell quality. I thought recommended 10 drops of the supplement was too high so started giving her 4 drops instead.* I give her DELI NATURE' grit [96.5% raw ashes, 14.5% calcium, 0.33% sodium, 0.05% phosphorous]3 times a day along with her feed. *Is this sufficient for a calcium deficient pigeon? I am interested to supplement calcium naturally in her diet and wean her off the medicine.
> With PMV like symptoms I started including aloe in her drinking water because of it's healing properties. Stopped that today.Somewhere in this forum came across goodness of carrots so gave her carrots today in water. Tried Probiotics that firms up the droppings but does not reduce the pool of liquid around it.. that's the problem I need a solution for.


They need a grit that will help them to grind up their food with. And you would just leave it with them all the time.


----------

