# Pigeons dying...



## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey guys, well first my pigeons started to die from the harsh weathers here. Now that thats been taken care of, i have new a new problem. 4 of my pigeons died in 2 days. (7 pigeons died in a week, weather/disease problems). Well the 4 that died in these last 2 days is not due to weather problems. First one of my best show homers dies. Sad really, wanted to get some eggs from her, i posted a picture of her earlier, she was the little tannish hen. She dies, then her mate, a 300 mile champ. Checked homer, weighed a hefty amount too, huge fellow dies. And then one of my best rollers, a grey/white hen dies. And just a few hours ago. One of my pure white rollers, which got 1st place in the BCRC show a month ago died. And then i saw it. One of my brown rollers, was moving his head around wildy, shaking it about, his head was turning backwards at an unordinary stage. For some reason the name, PMV keeps coming to me, i don't know if this is it but yeah. They also couldn't fly properly. They were tripping out, not being able to see the perches and just trying to land on them but hit the wall and come down. Also my checked homer, 300 mile champ, when he was dying, this yellow fluid was coming out of his mouth. I'm scared. Started the summer with over 80 birds...I'm down to 31, the losses this year have been crazy and very hurting. My mom and dad are gone for vacation. Only a 21 year old brother at home, that is always at work when i'm available. I'm only 15 so i don't know what to do. I don't want to lose any more pigeons  i was planning on going into showing now since i have...had...enough pigeons in both rollers, homers, high flyers. But now that dream will have to wait until 2010 i guess. Someone tell me what they think is going on.

Facts-

-Pigeon moving head wildy
-Pigeon turning head backwards too much
-Pigeon pecking or "hitting" his head on his feet
-Pigeon dies with yellow stuff coming out of his mouth


Good stuff...i think-

-Nothing to do with weather
-Fresh water 3 times a day...(it freezes)
-Heat Lamps available 24/7


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm so very sorry for all these losses, Gurbir. It's really the wrong time of year and wrong climate for your birds to be suffering from PMV, plus in a situation where the birds are being cared for, PMV wouldn't be killing them like this. 

I'd be suspecting something like paratyphoid (salmonellosis) or perhaps a viral thing like adenovirus. Any chance you can get a local pigeon fancier to give you a hand here? We can only guess over the internet. You probably need to have a dead bird or two necropsied by a vet who is at least somewhat bird savvy and perhaps some tests run. I know that's tough for a young man such as you are, but I really don't know of any other way to get a real handle on what's going on.

There are a couple of pigeon vets who will respond to e-mails about things like this. One is Dr. Colin Walker in Australia and there is another in the U.S. .. can't recall his name right now, but he's in the Midwest (I think) .. I'll try to get his info. I would definitely suggest that you get all the facts in order about these birds and e-mail Dr. Walker and this other fellow when I can find his info. 

I'm sure others will be along (or already have been) to offer their advice.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Dr. Kevin Zollars is the other vet who will try to help via e-mail or phone.

Gurbir, you're going to have to do the rest .. you can find both these vets on-line and get their e-mails. Like I said .. get your facts accurately together and e-mail these vets and see what they say.

Terry


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

OK sure, thanks Terry, i just want to save my remaining pigeons and start off fresh by February. :\ I'll email them as soon as possible. Snowed three feet...still snowing...a few of my neighbours cars are stuck, I'm going out to help them. Thank you so much again.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Do these birds appear to be fine, then die within a day or even hours of looking healthy? Or have they been suffering for a while?


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

They look fine today, the next day they look horrible, can't fly, some can't walk etc. I bought something today though. It is called "Ornacycline" , Tetracycline for birds. Aids in the treatment of respiratory and intestinal bacterial infections of pet birds. Broad-spectrum, fruit flavored antibiotic for use in drinking water. Treats most common bird respiratory ailments and intestinal bacterial infections. Safe to use with all species of birds. What do you guys think? Is it ok to give it to them?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Baytril would be best if you can get your hands on some.

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html

But I'd put them on what you have for now until you can get a hold of
some Baytril. Hopefully someone local can help you out.

fp


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Please Dont Take This The Wrong Way...*

Gurbir, I can't tell you much on how the situations about your birds... Its because I haven't experience regarding the dilemma you are facing now...When your birds are doing fine, if you can pesticide your loft before putting them back in it, it's a MUST...Again don't take this the wrong way but all I can say is, do the basic rules; keep the water fount clean (wash/bleach it all the time), during the winter pull-out the fount (after they all drink) before you go inside the house, in other words: if you know you ain't going back out...Then scrape as much poops as you can *each single day*...Do not let them eat on the floor...I know this things (PMV) happens but only to those who "neglect their birds"...Worms, bugs or mites on pigeons, I can understand they can't really avoid/prevent getting or having them, but them being sick?, its on the birds keeper...There's always a way (solutions) for everything...


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Really sorry to hear about your birds. I think about them all the time and how cold it is there.  I hope the Ornacyclin works. Good luck!!


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

According to the book "The Pigeon" written by Levi, the symptoms you describe could be anything from a Vitamin deficiency to a common cold.
I would make sure you do not have overcrowding in your loft(s). Your birds are on a good, balanced diet. Your loft is clean, no drafts! and the water/food containers are cleaned regularly.
What does the bird look like when it dies? Is it under weight? Is there swelling anywhere on the body? (Don't forget to check the vent!) Is the crop full or empty?
Did your feed get wet? Do you have mice in you loft(s)? Have you used some kind of pesticide or cleaning agent in your loft? Have you wormed your birds? Did they fly and perhaps get into some kind of poison? (I had a neighbor who use to put poison out for my birds!)
I know this does not answer your questions, but these are things you must look for and let the vet know about.  He may ask you to open one of the dead birds and look for things on the inside.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well i could be at fault here, i clean my loft every week, and this time it was a week late. (I cleaned it today) As for overcrowding that could have been a factor but i don't think so. I only had 4 birds in there that shouldn't have been in there, but this was due to my small loft collapsing...about a metre of snow/water which made ice so it was very heavy, plus this small loft, 4 x 4 x4 is 7 years old...the roof collapsed so i had to put those 4 birds in the bigger loft. A few died from the cold, but since this is the harshest winter we've had in 10 years i wasn't prepared. After 3 pigeons died, i got my brother to go to Home Depot and we bought a few heat lamps. Got a lot of shavings as well. Northern White Pine is all the place has due to most of the major highways being closed due to snow. So idk if the shavings had anything to do with it, i never use this type. Other than that, fresh water 2 times a day, not at night obviously. It froze so i did once in the morning, once in the afternoon, by 3 o clock i couldn't see anything anyway. Hmmm yeah i guess i covered everything....lost 11 great pigeons in 7 days. I lost an import today. High flying hen straight from pakistan. Had her for 3 years now, gift from an uncle. And now my loft is a disaster, got the neighbor yelling, threatening, to "Rip the walls of that loft and eat your pigeons for dinner" really pissed me off, and thats when i don't mind my annoying older brother to come in and save me lol. So yes, i'm down to 27 pigeons. From 80 to 27, a bad deal indeed. And just noticed the wire going from my house to the loft, that gives power to the heat lamps is being chewed down by rats. Got that protected today. 


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If anyone knows anyone in the Vancouver/Lower Mainland area here in British Columbia that could possibily come by for 3 days to check up and feed my birds on dates : Feb 24,25,26 I'd appriciate it. I'm participating in Provincials in Wrestling, 3 wins and i'm at nationals, its my second year, made it to nationals got silver  and i'm hoping to do it again. So if someone could help me out it'd be dandy lol.

Thanks again,
Gurbir


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Do you know if they may have been eating wet feed? Sounds a lot like what happened to me a few months ago with fungi. Have you noticed any of the sickly birds vomitting or 'gushing' water when you pick them up?


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Sorry Gurbir but I have to say this...*

Let me make a comment about the size of the loft 1st...I know I don't have space either but I regulate having to many birds and don't have enough room for them to fly, another issue of overcrowding the loft is, if it's not ventilated properly the stench of the poops will stay inside and if you say you were late cleaning your loft after a week...I can imagine how much is the poops when I scrape it for 2 days (imagine for  a week)...Well, 4X4X4 is way too small for 80 pigeons even for 27...I got 27 flying and my loft is 9'L X 6'H X 6'W. I scrape poops once a day...If weather permits, I vacuum the edges...

I'm going to be honest with you, put your feet in their shoes...Don't be a smart aleck, I know they don't wear shoes...But how would you like to stay or live in a house that nobody flush the toilet for a week? I mean I can take the odor of the pee but the #2 ...How do you like to eat in the environment that can suffocate you from the odor?...They have no choice but to stay there because you want to have them there but you have to do the best way you can for your pigeons, I know you got things to do for your life but they didn't fly down and ask you to take care of them, you went to find them and ask yourself you want to take care some breeds of pigeons...I don't like to butt-in, in someones business but if I can sense that there is something wrong not to blame the weather its because we choose not to do things for them...I bet you can't hardly stay in there because the odor...Man I eat my sandwich in my loft sometimes with my drink on the other hand...It's not 100% clean but I can guarantee that my health is safe not thinking that dust gets to my food...

Always remember; pretty much like driving; You can't expect other drivers will do the way you do on the road...You have to *dedicate and devote yourself * having them in your life, not because you are young and you got a whole life ahead of you, we do have young members here that put a lot of their time and efforts to take care of their birds...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Oliver.......I think the 4 X 4 loft is the one that collapsed and it had 4 birds in it. Those 4 birds were put in the bigger loft........don't know how "big" bigger is though............


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

think about all the new birds that you have brought home....did you quarentine them?....you had a mouse/rat prob not long ago...they carry dieseases....you can have multiple things going on and the ones that died from the cold may have lived if they were healthy....you need to build a decent loft that is draft free and mouse free and keep it clean and don't over crowd..2 ft per bird min....if you don'f fix these things your going to lose birds...you can't just collect birds because you want them....you have to have enough room....as far as getting the birds you have left healthy consult the vet and get the meds that you need and start cleaning EVERYDAY. If you don't have time think of pairing down and just have as many as you can take care of well. And stop hatching babies....get some dummy eggs, or seperate the pairs.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I don't mean to come out like that to Gurbir...I really feel bad for him and his birds...Him and them are all suffering for this, there is no win situation if he don't act fast...I'm not sure how big is the bigger loft you have but, if you put the ones that came from dying loft then you are just bringing the epidemic to the "bigger loft"...


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well the bigger loft is 8ft by 8ft by 6ft. Heated, draft free, mouse free, everything is good with it. In my small loft i had boarded everything up before the snow hit, (it was getting cold). But then one of my black homers died suddenly. It snowed, i thought it would be good to get all the birds into the bigger loft, since it had room. My small loft were actually all my flyers, high flyers and rollers. (I have given all my homers away). And then everything was fine for a whole week. Then a few died, and so on. I had shavings in the bigger loft, went the same day with my brother and put in a heat lamp. Loft was clean by now. So yeah few more died. 9 or 10 have died so far in the past 2 weeks. Today, not long ago, 15 minutes to be exact i have set up a warm "cage like" place in my garage where 6 of my pigeons i believe are sick are in there. So right now, my loft is sick pigeon free. I have about 16 pigeons in there that look perfectly fine. I have time, i'm only busy 6-8 everyday because i have wrestling practice. I clean the loft everyday now. Yup thats about all right now. Thanks


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

To keep it pest/germs/bacteria free, I 'll suggest: using BLEACH everytime you clean until the scent of the bleach takes place, make sure the birds are not in the loft when you do this...Do not mix the so called looking sick birds in the loft, I think the easyiest way they got sick its because they all drink in the same water fount and one apple spoils the whole basket...Honestly, sometimes I feel lazy to scrape the floor but everytime I think of a bird might get sick, it motivates me to scrape it right away...I spray bleach once a week (birds-out-flying) even in the winter, I make sure the bleach will smell in my backyard...


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

Spirit Wing brings up a very good point, no just for the new hobbyist, but for all of us. Quarantine. We have no way of knowing what the new bird is carrying. He may look healthy and seem fine. But how do you really know? Always quarantine a new bird before exposing your entire lock to the new guy. I was healthy and happy and in my prime, then I went to a foreign country and drank the water there... Yup, I was exposed to something new and it made me sick.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*UncleBuck...*

Did you get quarantine too?...I'm kidding ...

I just want to add a bit to what you said but SpiritWings made a good point...
For example; I was given some birds by someone I trust so I don't think I have to quarantine the bird/s for any reason right?...


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

Introducing new birds to your loft without a proper period of quarantine is an open invitation to disease. 

Quarantine is called for after shows, or a race where different lofts were boxed together.

We had a case this summer here in San Diego, where an exhibitor at the San Diego County Fair had a couple of his birds cooped next to a bird that was ill. Three days after the show, he started losing birds....over 90% of his loft.

It is impossible to medicate for every ailment, and antibiotics are never to be used as a preventative. Rather than medicate, the use of a good quality disinfectant at least two or three times a year, and maintaining a well ventilated loft that is dry and clean, but not neccessarily spotless. Levi used the "deep litter" method, allowing dry powder droppings to accumulate....with DRY as the operative word. This may turn off several here, but the Palmetto Pigeon Plant was and is a business in which the health of the stock is paramount!

I suggest that healthy pigeons don't get sick, and certainly don't need medications to keep them healthy. 1. Clean dry feed, 2. fresh water daily, 3. ventilation without drafts, 4. and no overcrowding. These are the four cardinal rules for pigeon keeping. 

They are very tolerant of weather and temperature, and forgiving for many of the stupid things we do to them...or for them.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well quarantine, i don't get birds from outside at all expect this year. I have been keepings pigeons since i was in Grade 2. I actually still have my very first pigeon, hes healthy  *knocks on wood* And now I'm in grade 10, so you could say 8 and a half years (got em in summer). This year, i got 8 pigeons from my uncle, who had imported these pigeons 3 years back. Now i trust my uncle not to give me sick pigeons so thats solved. The only other place i got new pigeons from was the president of Vancouver Fancy Pigeon Association, and the Trustee for CPFA. Ernie Silveri. Also, i got all these new pigeons way back in March. So i think if they were sick, things would have came up much much earlier since pigeons are more prone to changes than dogs/cats. So in other words, if something was wrong with them, the latest i would have found out would have been May or June. It's been over 8 months since i had them so they weren't brought sick. Before it go windy, i had boarded/put plastic over all of the openings/wire etc. So no drafts, fresh water everyday, fall/spring, once a day, summer/winter twice a day due to heat/frozen water. Seeds, i give them a pigeon mix my uncle told me to make. Mixed with pigeon pellets. And grit is available all the time. Starting from March-August my pigeons are out everyday. So i don't know where things went wrong. I just wish next year is better for me....40 pairs of pigeons....5 youngsters...not good at all. I was expecting much more than this. Now I'm down to 10 pairs, let's see what happens. I just want my remaining pigeons do magically be perfect again. Got some great blood lines from around the world and I'd hate all of that great stuff in them to go to waste. Some of my pigeons i lost flew for 13 hours straight. I lost my best homer as well. Lost amazing rollers.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Always quarantine new birds regardless of who or where they come from. Always keep Baytril on hand in addition to other medications that the birds
require for maintenance. Assume that if the rats are eating the wire that 
runs the electric service to the loft that rats/mice are still in your 'backyard' and
remain an issue. Do you have a dirt floor in your loft? 
Sorry you and your birds (esp) are suffering so many losses....

fp


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

It sounds like you are doing the right things. Did you quarantine your birds when they got back from the bird show? Is it possible that some wild birds got into your loft to eat left over feed?
I think you are on the right track, unfortunately sometimes you can pick these things up and then you rack your brains out trying to figure out what went wrong...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Another thought, are you disinfecting the waterer between refills?
You might take a look @ this sticky which can be found along w/other
useful health/medicinal information in the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/prevention-amp-nutrition-program-for-homing-pigeons-5760.html

fp


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

My loft has a wooden floor, raised about 5 inches off the ground. Disinfect waterers, well i use milk jugs, 4 litre ones, and i cut holes in them. And they have been working great for 8 years now. Usually i made new ones every week, since they're milk jugs and we always have new ones every week but now i make a new one every day. So there are new waterers everyday. I will be posting a picture of all the sick looking pigeons i have left. I have a good feeling its something to do with their digestive system, but i have been giving them ortha something (forgot the name) for the last 3 days. I see watery droppings so i am guessing it has something to do with the digestive system. Can someone name a few good medicine for digestive system? Although i give them grit, new fresh feed, and fresh water everyday i don't know where i went wrong. And on top of all that, its snowing again -.- just my luck


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just remembered the med that you are giving the birds is from the Tetracycline
family which means you need to pull the grit while they are on this medication.
The only other med this is true of is Baytril. These meds bind w/the grit and
make the medication ineffective.

Back in a min. on the meds...

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Half a cup of bleach to a gallon of water will kill all the viral, bacterial, fungal
pathogens known to compromise pigeons. Make sure the milk containers get
washed w/the above solution before filling w/water. You might be better off
reusing them because the longer you've been using them w/water, the more
certain there will be no milk residuals in the container. Milk residuals could
foster unwanted bacteria.

Canker:

Ronidazole
Metronidazole
Carnidazole
Dimetridazole
Secnidazole

Having two of these on hand so that you can rotate to discourage resistancy
of the organism is very important.

Coccidiosis:

Baycox
Amprolium
Sulmet
Albon 
Trimethoprim Sulpha

Again, having a couple of these on hand to alternate w/is essential.
I would pick Trimethoprim Sulpha along w/Amprolium because of the 
ability to combine these two w/canker meds to broaden the scope of
treatment if need be.

Antibiotics:

Baytril & Doxycycline will cover alot of territory along w/the canker/coccidiosis
meds.

Wormers:

Ivermectin/Moxidectin (Scatt)....these will take care of round worms
and more importantly blood sucking external parasites.

Medipet has a good all round wormer that will take care of 
just about every known worm that a pigeon can get and is
a safe combination of medicines in an easy one pill per bird dose.

fp


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh i see, thanks guys, I'm going to be calling my Mentor to see if hes back from his holiday. Now bleach, are you talking about bleach is in clothes washing bleach? If so, I'm not completely clear with this bleach stuff. Do i put bleach in the water and give it to the birds? Or do i wash the waterers with bleach, put fresh water in it and give that water to them :S


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

Wash the equipment with the bleach, do not feed it to your birds. Yes, the same bleach you use on your clothes. Clorox is what we use here, but the stuff they sell at the dollar store works just as well.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gurbir said:


> Oh i see, thanks guys, I'm going to be calling my Mentor to see if hes back from his holiday. Now bleach, are you talking about bleach is in clothes washing bleach? If so, I'm not completely clear with this bleach stuff. Do i put bleach in the water and give it to the birds? Or do i wash the waterers with bleach, put fresh water in it and give that water to them :S


Yup, just make sure it's not the concentrated kind, the proportions to mix that I mentioned (1/2 cup bleach to a gallon of water) are for the standard bleach whether generic or the standard Clorox bleach....But not for the concentrated kind. And *this solution is for cleaning with *, not to give the birds for drinking water. 

Once they are back in good healthf and off meds in the water, you can put 1-2 tablespoons of raw ACV to a gallon of water, or a crushed clove of garlic to a gallon of water which is allowed to stand in the fridge overnight and given the following day to the birds as their water, or Red Cell vitamins in the water. These are all things which just help to bolster their immune system.

fp


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well I've done everything everyone told me here, now its the waiting game. Let's see how things turn out tomorrow, lost 2 pigeons today that were seriously ill. Another one of my imports..but they all mean the same to me. Let's see whats in store for my birds tomorrow. I have time, resources, and the money. I have been leaving $10-$40 dollars a month, every month, for the last 3 years. This summer, I'm gonna go to the limit, build a loft no one has ever seen before, any virus will be afraid to come near it, and mice will be afraid as well. And i'm going to leave at least an hour a day for my birds, rain or shine. There will be major changes with me, my birds, and the lofts. I'm just glad you guys have been helping me through this tough situation so far. But for now, i wait and see what happens. I can't find a vet, in a 50 mile circumference that is open, if it is, they think pigeons are not pets and they will not treat them. Some vets these days make me sick.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm glad to hear you're going to put more effort into your birds.
But I don't believe you ever answered my question about how they may or may not be acting before they die  I think my post got burried in everyone's advice.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Sorry to cut you off Becky...*



Gurbir said:


> I can't find a vet, in a 50 mile circumference that is open, if it is, they think pigeons are not pets and they will not treat them. Some vets these days make me sick.


Let me tell you something; the vets are not even 200 feet away from you, you don't have to go outside the house and the vets are closer to you..Turn on your computer, sign-in here and each one of us here in PT are the VETS...Most vets that you find will say the same thing as we say, I bet you they won't advise you to give your birds some garlic in water or bleach your loft...BECAUSE in school they don't teach those things...You actually have to have some PIGEONS to know about them (not everything) but some of the symtoms and basic care...I think what they will say to you is , "yah your bird is sick and here's the $3000 bill for the medicine/examination/x-ray we did to your bird"...Or please donate some money but then once you ask how much is the donation, immediately they will say $100...For what I understand, donation is not something with an amount but something you can afford or you have that is not much of a value...See they're not going to tell you how much it will cost when you walk in the clinic...I give you an example, you found a bird that you know it is sick and need some medical attention and a shelter, try to go in the vet clinic and say here is a bird that need an attention medicine and a place warm, I bet you they might pretend they will take it but soon as you walk out and drive away, they will take that bird out in the back of the building and let it loose...Even if you give them $20 for donation, they are not going to keep that bird...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

oliver has a good point....but, I like to take fecal samples in to test for worms and a gram smear to see the ratio of bad vs good bacteria,,so I will know what kind of meds I need to use, not all vets are in the dark about pigeons...It just depends on the vet....one that treats exotics and birds and does rehab with wild birds is a good one for your pigeons...but finding one is not easy.....


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Well i haven't seen the pigeons dying right in front of me, usually when i go to feed them they are already dead. Lost another beauty today. But, all the pigeons dying are the ones i have separated from the rest of the pigeons. These pigeons are in my garage. The ones in the loft seem fine, and there hasn't been a death in there for 4 days now. Also, my moms friends husband, keeps pigeons. He has some medicine with him that will cure my birds that are not seriously sick. (He had the same problem) And he is going to give me an empty bottle of medicine that i'll need to take to a vet in Vancouver, 40 minute drive, this will cure the birds he said for sure. I don't know what it is. Its 3:30 pm here, at 5:45 i have wrestling practice and at 8 i'll be done. So hopefully by 8:30 i'll be able to go over to his house.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, I'm one of those that trust and believe in vets just as I do the members here on the forum. However, I'm very lucky to have the vet resources that I have. All vets are not equal and if you find one that you don't quite trust, look for another one.

I just spent over two hours with my vet today, going over different things and getting her to look at a sick pigeon we have. And, yes, sometimes it is expensive. Today, the bill was over $300 but she gives us a 50% discount. The bill covered medicine, two radiographs and a complete blood panel. All are expensive tests. Her time is on the house as well as the fecal float, gram stain and five medicine bottles.

You really need a vet to do the gram stains and fecal smears and fecal floats unless you do as several of our members and buy a microscope and do your own. This link is about reptiles but describes fecal floats/smears: http://yil.jp/iguana/parasite/parasite/fecal_check_marie-e.htm This site explains gram stains: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_stain

I look forward to finding out the name of the medicine your friend is recommending. Often, you can rely on Baytril for 7 - 10 days to cure birds and follow up that with a probiotic for several days.

Good luck, Gurbir. I know it is so disheartening to lose so many birds and not know the cause. I'm so glad you take your responsibilities so seriously.


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## A_Smith (Aug 8, 2006)

> Also, my moms friends husband, keeps pigeons. He has some medicine with him that will cure my birds that are not seriously sick. (He had the same problem) And he is going to give me an empty bottle of medicine .


Just my 2 cents here. Was your moms friends husband's birds recently sick? Also was he in your loft, or were you in his, Or was there handling of birds "when" his birds (or yours) were sick? Use caution with others arround your birds. Sickness can and will be spread through contact. An example is with shoes or clothes. 


> he is going to give me an empty bottle of medicine .


 Some meds in the bottle would be more usefull. They can be replaced at a later time. Your birds may not be able to wait.


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

I hope that you will not be losing anymore birds, Gurbir.

Not sure if it can be done, but I thought that it would be good if after this whole thing is resolved, you can implement some preventive measures to protect your birds.

Good luck!


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey guys, my moms friends husband, the guy i was talking about before, told me to get some "AMPROL" 9.6% Solution (amprolium) He had this exact same problem, and this amprol stuff fixed up his pigeons. What do you guys think?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Gurbir said:


> Hey guys, my moms friends husband, the guy i was talking about before, told me to get some "AMPROL" 9.6% Solution (amprolium) He had this exact same problem, and this amprol stuff fixed up his pigeons. What do you guys think?


If your pigeons have coccidiosis, then the Amprol should work. Here's some info from www.pigeoncote.com:

_Name: Amprolium (Corid, Amprol) 
Description: Amprolium is a chemical that is very similar to thiamine in structure. It is a coccidiostatic by substituting for thiamine during the coccidia life cycle. 
Usage: As a coccidiostat. 
Adverse reactions: None that are common. 
Dosage: 1 teaspoon per gallon (20% powder) for 3 - 5 days. 6 - 12 ml/gallon (9% solution) for 3 - 5 days. 
Comments: Amprolium is highly effective, can be mixed with other drugs, and doesn't seem to affect performance. It is considered by many to be the drug of choice for coccidiosis. Vitamins should not be used during treatment, but recommended by many after treatment._

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Okay. I'm going attempt to give my 2 cents again.
If you can take the birds to the vet, good. If not, keep every bird you even suspect sick, away from the healthier ones. If I were you, treat all the birds to prevent even the 'healthy' (because you can't be 100% sure they aren't carrying it around too) from going downhill. In my opinion, this sounds like paratyphoid. I had some fungi problems earlier this year from the birds eating wet food after a flood. They died very quickly like you mentioned, some did have a somewhat yellowish looking liquid coming out of their mouth. Depending on how long before death they ate and drank, liquid coming out of the mouth can be expected. My birds' crops were not emptying like they should, so they gushed when picked up.
Paratyhoid can be fixed with antibiotics. The broad spectrum you mentioned earlier would be what I would use, if you aren't sure what exactly this is. Paratyphoid comes in 4 forms, and can effect the brain (nervous fits), bowls, joints, or the organs. They can also carry it where it doesn't show in the parents, but they pass it along to the babies, or they can become infertile from it. A bad enough cause of paratyphoid can cause sudden death, especially in younger birds.
I don't think coccidiosis medicine will help you in this case. Birds infested with coccidia can die too of course, but I don't see it causing them to act like you've said so far.
Keep the loft clean everyday if you can, until your birds rid themselves of whatever is killing them. ACV in the water a few times a week after this will prevent salmonella and other bacteria as well, and is beneficial to the bird's guts. Regular use of probiotics will greatly reduce the possibility of salmonella.

Another thing to consider is paratyphoid is mostly found in many show pigeons and highflying breeds. And if I'm not mistaken, you have many of those right?


That's all I've got to say. There's some info even if your birds have a different problem.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

First off: I just took a look at the rules of this forum, concerning culling. The way I read them, this is not in violation of them. 

If I were you, (my opinion) I would do as Becky said. Go and Get every bird that is sick or you think is sick. Take them far away. Depending on what this is, it is possible it can be spread in the air. These birds after showing symptoms are all dying. If It were me, Id dispose of these birds before they could die of this disease. The longer they sit, the more the other birds are exposed to them. These birds are going to die anyway, might as well save the birds that don't have to die. Its Christmas break too, If it were me I'd be spending every waking moment in the loft, watching. Watching for any and every bird to make a sneeze, fidgit, or twitch and act on that. Every bird you let sit in there, with them, before it dies its only infects more birds. Just do away with them and try and save what you can. 

Again; The way I read the rules, PT is against lethal culling of unwanted birds. I would never advise anyone here to kill an unwanted pigeon, that is for sure a violation of strict pt code. This is different, this is killing a bird, bound for that anyway, to save another bird. 

If this is in fact a violation of the code of conduct, I will retract this statement and Wont have a thing to say. All you need to do is pm me and I will do as asked. Im not looking for a fight, or a punishment from the moderators here. Just giving advice as I think is best.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Matt D. said:


> First off: I just took a look at the rules of this forum, concerning culling. The way I read them, this is not in violation of them.
> 
> If I were you, (my opinion) I would do as Becky said. Go and Get every bird that is sick or you think is sick. Take them far away. Depending on what this is, it is possible it can be spread in the air. These birds after showing symptoms are all dying. If It were me, Id dispose of these birds before they could die of this disease. The longer they sit, the more the other birds are exposed to them. These birds are going to die anyway, might as well save the birds that don't have to die. Its Christmas break too, If it were me I'd be spending every waking moment in the loft, watching. Watching for any and every bird to make a sneeze, fidgit, or twitch and act on that. Every bird you let sit in there, with them, before it dies its only infects more birds. Just do away with them and try and save what you can.
> 
> ...


Thank you Matt for looking at and being aware of the rules of this forum. I think your advice to Gurbir is sound up to the point of actually killing the ill birds. I do agree that he needs to separate the ill from the ones that are still healthy or at least doing OK. Also agree that they need to be separated by a pretty good distance or separated with substantial barriers between them AND also that Gurbir has to be very careful now with his hygiene and not be transferring the problem from ill birds to healthy birds .. ie .. he needs to be washing his hands, changing clothes and shoes, and sterlizing food/water containers and utensils and not sharing any of these between the well and ill birds.

If the ill ones are going to die, then I, personally, would opt for them to do so in a safe and warm place where they can pass peacefully. If death is their destiny, I don't see any need to rush this as long as Gurbir is being careful.

Thank you again, Matt, for being a very savvy member here. I appreciate your respect for the rules of the board!

Terry


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

"Paratyphoid comes in 4 forms, and can effect the brain (nervous fits), bowls, joints, or the organs." Now this caught my eye. One of my rollers, one of my ex best rollers actually, now shakes his head a lot, kind of like twitches a lot, can't really explain it but he like moves his head a lot, (nervous fits). One of my other roller hens, has stopped walking for the last week now. Like suddenly, one day its fine, the next day it can't walk, (joints?) And this Amprol stuff i was talking about, the guy that came to look at my birds described his similar situation about his pigeons, it was exactlly same as mine. And he used Amprol, and all his HEALTHY pigeons or not so seriously ill pigeons lived on, but he said, the sick ones will die. And yes all of my pigeons are either rollers, or high flyers. Iranian, pakistani high flyers. I have a few tumblers as well. No more homers, they were borrowed from a friend, excellent birds, it is good that i gave them back to him before this disease came. (He was going to use them to breed anyway, his old breeders were dying, getting younger breeders). Anyways, killing the sick ones is out of the question. Matt i believe you're 15? and so am i. But my mind just thinks a little bit differently. You are right in a way, to save the ones that are still healthy. (I already separated the healthy ones from the sick ones, but everyday theres about a pigeon or two that need to be put with the sick ones). I have the room, and I'm surely aint gonna be eating pigeon feed, so if a few scoops of pigeon feed for a few more days, to keep my buddies alive for a few more days i'll give it. I have a heater in there with the sick ones. What really choked me today was, my very first pigeon, like literally my very first. He's been with me since day one. As long as he was with me, he's been with 3 hens. 1st one died from egg binding, 2nd one died from hawk attack, and the 3rd mate is still alive. He looked sick today, so i put him in a seperate little place today. So incase if my prediction was wrong, and if hes healthy he won't catch anything from the sick pigeons. Well i'll keep you guys updated, happy new years!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Those rollers you mentioned make me think it's paratyphoid even more. 
Amprol probably would have helped the sickly birds if it had been the right medicine for this case.
Another thing I just thought of. When all of my pigeons were getting sick, I separated those who looked anything but normal like you are, but there was another sick or dead one each day. I decided since it looked like I couldn't stop what was happening, I'd separate the more healthy ones too. Save them before they go downhill you know? It went through my breeders, so I had to save something or there was a chance I'd have no more. I hate to pick favorites, but I tried to save the ones that would hit me the hardest if lost.
Remember salmonella breeds in warm, wet environments, so keeping the drinkers clean everyday is a must. Those who you put in the warm 'hospitals' need to have their cages dry and clean. Some shavings will help dry up their droppings. I was talking to my dad about this, this morning. He suggested not leaving the water in the loft (it's okay to keep it in cages with just one bird). Usually pigeons only have to drink twice a day, if fed twice a day. When feeding, leave the food and water in there for 20 minutes (the water longer if some haven't drank yet), twice a day. After each time clean the drinkers, preferably with bleach water. Give them fresh food and water each time. That should help a lot with the spreading. The longer the contaminated food and water sits in the loft, the more time the disease has to breed and spread.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Those rollers you mentioned make me think it's paratyphoid even more.
> Amprol probably would have helped the sickly birds if it had been the right medicine for this case.
> Another thing I just thought of. When all of my pigeons were getting sick, I separated those who looked anything but normal like you are, but there was another sick or dead one each day. I decided since it looked like I couldn't stop what was happening, I'd separate the more healthy ones too. Save them before they go downhill you know? It went through my breeders, so I had to save something or there was a chance I'd have no more. I hate to pick favorites, but I tried to save the ones that would hit me the hardest if lost.
> Remember salmonella breeds in warm, wet environments, so keeping the drinkers clean everyday is a must. Those who you put in the warm 'hospitals' need to have their cages dry and clean. Some shavings will help dry up their droppings. I was talking to my dad about this, this morning. He suggested not leaving the water in the loft (it's okay to keep it in cages with just one bird). Usually pigeons only have to drink twice a day, if fed twice a day. When feeding, leave the food and water in there for 20 minutes (the water longer if some haven't drank yet), twice a day. After each time clean the drinkers, preferably with bleach water. Give them fresh food and water each time. That should help a lot with the spreading. The longer the contaminated food and water sits in the loft, the more time the disease has to breed and spread.


Becky is spot on, Listen to what she has to say. She knows more than you and me combined Gurbir.  I just cleaned my waters with bleach water yesterday, I dont do it nearly often enough. I use a 5 gallon bucket and just poor about 1 part bleach to about 15 parts water. Just soak them in there and You'll know when to pull them out because they'll look brand new. 

You said you had a hen that stopped walking a week ago. I wonder how old she is? I can think of two common things that do that, canker and coli. Both of them are known to do that, and both will kill a bird; both can also be treated. You need to always be on the look out for those diseases. If she's an old hen with either, it will be worse than a young bird. If she's been down for a week, there's nothing you can do now. You should have caught that a week or two ago if you wanted to save her.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Matt D. said:


> Becky is spot on, Listen to what she has to say. She knows more than you and me combined Gurbir.  I just cleaned my waters with bleach water yesterday, I dont do it nearly often enough. I use a 5 gallon bucket and just poor about 1 part bleach to about 15 parts water. Just soak them in there and You'll know when to pull them out because they'll look brand new.
> 
> You said you had a hen that stopped walking a week ago. I wonder how old she is? I can think of two common things that do that, canker and coli. Both of them are known to do that, and both will kill a bird; both can also be treated. You need to always be on the look out for those diseases. If she's an old hen with either, it will be worse than a young bird. If she's been down for a week, there's nothing you can do now. You should have caught that a week or two ago if you wanted to save her.


 I agree, Becky is RIGHT...I hope you do these things as she has given great advice...


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

Yup i'll do those things  Also, that hen that stopped walking is unbanded, don't know how old she is, she was given to me in summer 2008. Produced one heck of a youngster if i do say so myself. It was HUGEEE. Now i know rollers, but this guy was HUGEE. And his colours...wow...he looked exactlly like a hawk. The hen is brown, and the cock was dark brown, black, with specks of white. And thank you Becky. I'll do that. The guy that came outside suggested the same thing with taking the waterers and feeders out. And i cleaned my loft throughly. Also, a pair of some of my last remaining pakistani high flyer imports are "mating". Should i not let them? Thank you all again, and happy new years and hope you all have a healthy year, and your pets too!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If your birds are sick, chances are they are also dehydrated. _ I wouldn't pull water from sick birds, they should be able to have water when they need it. Just disinfect the water containers daily. Dehydration will have an adverse effect on the organs and limit the bird's ability to fight the disease._

If you currently have all the birds on Tetracycline in the waterers, there is 
a good likelihood that the waterers aren't the problem as the antibiotic in the
water will kill the bacteria when a sick bird drinks.


Amprolium will not cure Salmonella/Paratyphoid, it is a medication that is used for the treatment of Coccidiosis and Terry already posted the information regarding this medication.

You should be treating routinely for coccidiosis, canker and worms and have the necessary medications on hand for this and an extra med as well for each condition so that you can rotate and help avoid drug resistancy that can occur by relying on the same med over time. I have already given you a post regarding this.

The medication of choice for Paratyphoid/Salmonella is Baytril though there are other medications that can be used. Having said that, if I had as many bird casualties on my hands and heart as you do, I would opt for the big gun and treat the loft. As I stated earlier, continue to use the Tetracycline until
you can get Baytril, then get them on Baytril ASAP!!!

Also, maybe I missed it, but *HAVE YOU PULLED THE GRIT FROM ALL OF THE BIRDS THAT WERE MEDICATED WITH TETRACYCLINE???? IT RENDERS THE TREATMENT USELESS UNLESS YOU DO!!!!*

*Next important point, Apple Cider Vinegar will not prevent any of the major
diseases that pigeons can get.* It will help to promote good health by creating an acidic environment which good bacteria love and thrive in. Disease is less apt to take hold of a pigeon whose immune system is bolstered
by high levels of good bacteria. Other than this, the only way to prevent
these diseases in the loft is through vaccination, good hygiene from you and in the loft for the birds and quarantining any new birds you bring for 5-6 weeks. Beyond this, there is no mystery to it all.


***************About Paratyphoid!!!************************

Medication of Choice is Baytril.

To clear a bird of the carrier state, the bird needs to be 
on the medication for a minimum of three weeks. Baytril 
gets most strains though there are rogue strains that are
tough even for Baytril.

Only Vaccination can prevent Salmonella/Paratyphoid.

Any bird can get Paratyphoid through exposure.

Pecking at or eating feces from another animal (any species) infected with the disease or acting as a carrier (yes, mice and/or rats) will transfer the disease.

Fancy birds and showbirds have no special susceptibility for Paratyphoid.
Salmonella/Paratyphoid is an opportunistic disease that has a variety of ways to survive including but not limited to vertical transmission (through the egg), remaining dormant in the host until the immune system is compromised, laying in wait in the envirnment until ingested by a new host, billing w/a carrier or sick bird, exchange of bodily fluids directly bird to bird or through a vector
such as Pigeon Fly or any other vector that survives on blood products.

Medicated water that has an antibiotic in it that kills the Salmonella/Paratyphoid strain of bacteria is NOT 
considered a means of transmission.

Worry first about physical contact transmission and the varieties of ways this can happen and then consider air bourne possibilities.


Here are a couple of very good links on the topic of Paratyphoid/Salmonella:

http://www.wingswest.net/

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-27268--,00.html


I hope you take the time to read this post, I just hate to see someone chasing their own tail.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

From this website:

http://www.wingswest.net/

Under their Racing Pigeon section, and then under that section's subsection
of Health is the Salmonella(Paratyphoid) link:


Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid)

Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid, Leg Paralysis, Wing Paralysis ) is a bacterial disease. It has different symptoms depending on what organs are affected. It causes high mortality in the very young pigeons, birds that survive the infection frequently become carriers as they harbor the pathogen in their bodies and excrete them without showing any visible symptoms of the disease. Carriers endanger the entire flock, especially the young birds.

The salmonellae bacteria settles in the intestine, they posses one flagella which enables movement in a moist environment. The pathogens are excreted via the droppings, crop milk, saliva and with infected eggs. Salmonellae can enter the pigeons body through contaminated feed or drinking water, also through billing or feeding of the squabs. The pathogen can even enter the pigeon by breathing dust containing it.

The disease is imported into the loft by the introducing of a new infected pigeon to the flock, either by purchasing an infective bird or an infected common pigeon that has strayed into the loft.

There are four different forms of the disease:

*

Intestinal Form: This form causes diarrhea with slimy/aqueous brownish to greenish droppings, the droppings will be surrounded by fluid and may contain pulpy undigested feed. The intestines are inflamed, feed cannot be broken down for its nutrients. Since the pigeon can no longer absorb the nutrients its starts using its blood sugar, when that is depleted, it uses its fat reserves and then finally its protein i.e. muscle tissue. Soon the pigeon is emaciated (starving) and the dies.
*

Articular Form: Salmonellae can quickly multiply in the digested feed. Through damaged intestinal walls they pass easily into the blood stream. From there the blood will carry the disease throughout the whole body. The pathogens may settle in the pigeons joints where they cause painful inflammation. The pigeons body reacts by the increased formation of fluid to these joints, therefore the swelling. The inflammation manifests itself by the pigeon letting a wing droop or holding its leg up to ease the pressure put upon the joints and alleviate the pain.
*

Organ Involvement: The disease can also multiply in the different organs of the pigeon especially the liver, kidneys, spleen, heart and pancreas. Tumor like yellowish gray nodes are formed. The changes in the organs are not characterized by any typical external symptoms except listlessness, difficulty in breathing and rapidly progressing debility.
*

Nervous Disorder: Salmonellae can enter the brain and the bone marrow and cause inflammation there. As a result of the inflammation there is increased pressure exerted on the nerve cells causing an impaired sense of balance and finally paralysis. 

The medication of choice is: Baytril 10% (also good for e-coli and ornithosis): Bacterial injection and drug sensitivity is the first choice in determining which drug your pigeon should be treated with, in lieu of that, Baytril is the drug of choice because it works in most cases against bacterial infections. Baytril can be purchased in tablets for individual birds or in liquid form for flock treatment.

*

Tablets: 1 tablet for 14 days for an individual bird
*

Liquid: 4cc per gallon for 10 days for flock treatment.
*

Liquid: 3 or 4 drops down the birds throat for 14 days. (individual treatment). 

Most of all, isolate any new pigeons you acquire and observe them for at least 30 days before you introduce them into the loft. And make your loft intruder proof for stray common pigeons and for rodents. Rats and mice also carry paratyphoid and will soil the grain that your pigeons eat.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The only thing I would like to say, is that vinegar is a good preventive substance. It may not cure anything, or guarantee a bird won't get sick, but it will help prevent certain things. Salmonella bacteria is one of those things it doesn't agree with. Not only does it create a acidic environment in the guts where good bacteria can grow, but it also acts as a natural antibiotic. Which sounds a bit hypocritical to kill bacteria and yet be favorable for good bacteria, but doesn't mean it's not true. It helps sanitize the water. The good bacteria that grows in the guts discourages salmonella. ACV is one natural thing I swear by, if nothing else. I really feel it can be helpful to Gurbir in this case, following medication, especially if he doesn't have probiotics to give his birds. Baytril and Tetracycline will kill out the good bacteria as well as the bad, which makes the birds even more vulnerable to catching disease again. So saying that Gurbir, I'd suggest seeing if you can find some probiotics.

I know most sick birds easily become dehydrated. I said leaving the water in the cages with sick birds is okay, since it will only be one bird drinking from that water. The 'healthy' ones who all share the drinking water, and are probably carrying the disease around, where the ones I was directing that towards. And of course, if there is an antibiotic in the water, then you won't need to take the water away because the bacteria is being killed.

And Gurbir, to answer your question about the mating birds, I'd stop them if I were you. Letting them possibly breed during this isn't a good idea. Wait until everyone is medicated and recovered.

Some links to check out
http://www.vpu.co.za/articles/cage_birds/cage/apple_cider/apple_1.htm
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/UseofProbiotics.html
Interesting stuff.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Apple Cider Vinegar is not a 100% Preventative, and I am pro-raw ACV. ACV is a deterrent, plainly and simply. The only preventative that is undisputed is the
role of vaccinations, hygene and quarantine in the loft. These are undisputed
elements of infectious disease control contamination in the loft. As much as 
I promote ACV for pigeons, if a pigeon fly carried the disease between two feral
members of a flock or two members of a loft, it would be over...... There are many means of transmission, and Gurbir must be aware of the many 'means of 
transmission' in order to be a successful pigeon fancier. Period the end.

Garlic in the water, ACV in the water, etc. are considered Pre-Biotics, not Pro
biotics in that they create the environment that is favorable to Pro-Biotics, i.e., an acidic environment that makes it easy for good bacteria to multiplyy in. As such, they are a corner stone of prevention while not Fool-Proof nor a remedy for disease in the loft. There is no remedy like hard work, good hygiene, routine (maintenance) treatment of known medical problems and vaccines. 

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Garlic in the water, ACV in the water, etc. are considered Pre-Biotics, not Pro biotics in that they create the environment that is favorable to Pro-Biotics, i.e., an acidic environment that makes it easy for good bacteria to multiplyy in. As such, they are a corner stone of prevention while not Fool-Proof nor a remedy for disease in the loft. There is no remedy like hard work, good hygiene, routine (maintenance) treatment of known medical problems and vaccines.


Next time, I'd suggest to read what she wrote. Because that is exactly what she said. She said A.C.V. was a preventive measure. Not a cure. Infact, the first two sentences of her last post said that exactly. She also said that it wasnt a pro-biotic; but it could be used with a pro-biotic to make it work better. 

As far as matt goes, I do and dont agree with your last sentence. If he was out there and cleaning the loft everyday then He (probably) could have avoided what ever this illness is. I do clean every day, at the most ever other day. What i dont agree with is worming and giving birds anti-biotics and vitamins every month. I dont vaccinate or do I worm or do anti-biotics. Birds in a good loft, with good food, and a Good fancier will not have problems every month with those things. If you do every month, the birds' bodies get used to these things and if you do have a problem the med's wont work as well. Where as, if I have a problem, and I worm my birds It'll going to work much better.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Sorry, Matt, but she clearly states that it will prevent it in the loft which even Gordon Chalmers will not state after all of his scientific studies.


I will stand by the statements that I postulated Matt, as a rehabber and 
having had numerous rehabs w/Salmonella/Paratyphoid diagnosis.

From the following post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=343235&postcount=50



Medication of Choice is Baytril.

To clear a bird of the carrier state, the bird needs to be
on the medication for a minimum of three weeks. Baytril
gets most strains though there are rogue strains that are
tough even for Baytril.

Only Vaccination can prevent Salmonella/Paratyphoid.

Any bird can get Paratyphoid through exposure.

Pecking at or eating feces from another animal (any species) infected with the disease or acting as a carrier (yes, mice and/or rats) will transfer the disease.

Fancy birds and showbirds have no special susceptibility for Paratyphoid.
Salmonella/Paratyphoid is an opportunistic disease that has a variety of ways to survive including but not limited to vertical transmission (through the egg), remaining dormant in the host until the immune system is compromised, laying in wait in the envirnment until ingested by a new host, billing w/a carrier or sick bird, exchange of bodily fluids directly bird to bird or through a vector
such as Pigeon Fly or any other vector that survives on blood products.

Medicated water that has an antibiotic in it that kills the Salmonella/Paratyphoid strain of bacteria is NOT
considered a means of transmission.

Worry first about physical contact transmission and the varieties of ways this can happen and then consider air bourne possibilities.


Here are a couple of very good links on the topic of Paratyphoid/Salmonella:

http://www.wingswest.net/

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...7268--,00.html


I hope you take the time to read this post, I just hate to see someone chasing their own tail.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Matt D. said:


> Next time, I'd suggest to read what she wrote. Because that is exactly what she said. She said A.C.V. was a preventive measure. Not a cure. Infact, the first two sentences of her last post said that exactly. She also said that it wasnt a pro-biotic; but it could be used with a pro-biotic to make it work better.
> 
> As far as matt goes, I do and dont agree with your last sentence. If he was out there and cleaning the loft everyday then He (probably) could have avoided what ever this illness is. I do clean every day, at the most ever other day. What i dont agree with is worming and giving birds anti-biotics and vitamins every month. I dont vaccinate or do I worm or do anti-biotics. Birds in a good loft, with good food, and a Good fancier will not have problems every month with those things. If you do every month, the birds' bodies get used to these things and if you do have a problem the med's wont work as well. Where as, if I have a problem, and I worm my birds It'll going to work much better.


Matt...feralpigeon didn't say to give antibiotics every month. You need to read feral pigeon's last sentence again.
If you don't vaccinate for salmonella, I hope you have a fool proof way to keep rodents out of your loft. Good luck with that.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

Charis said:


> If you don't vaccinate for salmonella, I hope you have a fool proof way to keep rodents out of your loft. Good luck with that.


Well, I give acv 3 or 4 times a week. My loft is completely sealed off. There is no way for rodents to get in. all 3/4" plywood flooring, with 1/2" on the walls. All 1/4" hardware cloth for all the openings, that is secured down. I do not have mice or rats.

I looked at her last sentence again, When I think of people that do meds 'routinely' that includes anti-biotics. Maybe I was assuming, but she was being vague.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm only posting this in mine and Matt's defense, otherwise, I give up. I do understand you've had much more experience and I respect that. But I feel like either I'm not making myself clear or you are just misunderstanding what I've said. I'm just trying to help Gurbir by giving him what I've learned from reading and experience, and from what my dad has taught me from his experiences with pigeons.

I said it is for preventive purposes, rather than to cure. I went on to say it _helps_ prevent, BUT _cannot guarantee_ a bird will not get sick. Vinegar is not perfect. And medication of course would be the best route in this case. Even vaccinations are not _always_ 100% perfect preventives. There are even many articles full of reasons vaccines could actually be worse for the bird than better, but that is a whole other story I'd rather not get into tonight. So saying that, good loft hygiene, quarantining new birds, and avoiding overcrowding are ultimately the best preventive measures you can do.

After re-reading the section on Paratyphoid in Dr. Colin Walker's book, it does mention certain breeds more commonly get bad cases of it.

'The disease seems to be more common and causes more severe symptoms in fancy pigeons, particularly of certain breeds, e.g. Modenas, Show Homers and high-flying breeds, in particular Doneks'

'Various vaccines against Salmonella are available. Although vaccine use has had its problems and has at times not been fully protective, in certain lofts vaccination can be a useful adjunct to control.......Whether to vaccinate or not is a matter of weighing up the potential for exposure, the risk the fancier is prepared to take, and the cost. In Australia, the disease in race birds is uncommon and because the vaccine is not fully protective and has the risk of side effects, widespread use of the vaccine is not recommended. I see vaccination as having particular value in a loft that has had a problem with Salmonella and also as an aid in controlling the disease if an outbreak occurs.'

So with that said, Gurbir can decide if vaccinations are best for him. I've used it to cure a sick bird with it before. 10 days of the vaccine, 1/2 cc I believe. But to give all of my birds the vaccination when I barely ever have a problem, nor an outbreak, is out of the question in my loft. But that's just me.


Speaking of which, Gurbir if you don't have any medical books like this, you may want to try and get one  They come in handy with knowing what to look for with sick birds. Mine is called The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health & Management, by Dr. Colin Walker. There's a few others but this one is very good in my opinion.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> Sorry, Matt, but she clearly states that it will prevent it in the loft which even Gordon Chalmers will not state after all of his scientific studies.
> 
> I will stand by the statements that I postulated Matt, as a rehabber and
> having had numerous rehabs w/Salmonella/Paratyphoid diagnosis.


Well, This is a bit late now that Becky's moved this thread down the tracks some more, but I'd like to take some time to reply to this. First off, I know she clearly states that it will prevent it in the loft. I actually said she said that in my first post. I dont have a fancy loft, or a fancy degree, But I have experience with real birds in a real life situation; and I'd like to say that I do BELIEVE it will (maybe not prevent) but surely it will reduce the risk of coli and canker. Second off, I'm standing by my early statement. I was talking about my birds in my loft. I am sure its different for birds you pull off the streets.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I'm only posting this in mine and Matt's defense, otherwise, I give up. I do understand you've had much more experience and I respect that. But I feel like either I'm not making myself clear or you are just misunderstanding what I've said. I'm just trying to help Gurbir by giving him what I've learned from reading and experience, and from what my dad has taught me from his experiences with pigeons.
> 
> I said it is for preventive purposes, rather than to cure. I went on to say it _helps_ prevent, BUT _cannot guarantee_ a bird will not get sick. Vinegar is not perfect. And medication of course would be the best route in this case. Even vaccinations are not _always_ 100% perfect preventives. There are even many articles full of reasons vaccines could actually be worse for the bird than better, but that is a whole other story I'd rather not get into tonight. So saying that, good loft hygiene, quarantining new birds, and avoiding overcrowding are ultimately the best preventive measures you can do.
> 
> ...


How many outbreaks of canker and salmonella in your loft have you had in the 
past year?

How many birds have you lost in the last year?

fp


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

feralpigeon said:


> How many outbreaks of canker and salmonella in your loft have you had in the
> past year?
> 
> How many birds have you lost in the last year?
> ...


I know that this wasn't directed towards me, but... None and None.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

OK .. This is suspended until tomorrow .. we need to get into all the posts and points of view, but I have animal control on my front door right now with a critical, and I need to go tend to the bird ..

You all keep your thoughts, and we'll get back at this tomorrow or if another moderator comes along and wants to open it up, then that's fine. 

For the time being, this thread is closed.

Terry


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