# Egg Production



## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

"Greetings All", from a guy that never raised pigeons before and I thank you for this forum.

You may find it as funny as I do, having never raised a pigeon and is working on the science of their behavior. I've read allot of books, that have said many things about pigeons that just don't have many consistent answers between them. In my work I have found that you can read "how to books" forever and never really know anything unless you actually do it.

My pigeons are of the common white racer breeds. They are a very controlled group that I cannot add too unless I breed them from this flock. I have access to 9 of 10 of them. The other one is busy right now miles away but will with hope make the flock an even 10. There are a few breeding couples, but the others are not sexed or apparently mated.

Basically, I need for these Pigeons to do it like Rabbits for a few years. So any advise on having a robust "year around breeding plan" would mean worlds of physics to me.

"Thanks all" and I promise to get a whole lot smarter.

Th'DirtyDozen

PS) Because of the quantum physics involved within this experiment, many things about it cannot be discussed (that has to do with waves becoming particles by human intervention). ""But I assure you that no pigeon will be harmed unless it's by old age or a hawk"". <--------- I am not killing pigeons!


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

What does "to do it like Rabbits for a few years" mean ? Lay eggs are raise squabs all year around ?

If you have mated pairs and provide them with enough nutrition, food, water and a clean place, they will do it themselves  First you get all your pigeons vaccinated, de-wormed and on a good food and nutrition schedule because diseases in the middle times of hiaving babies will be a pretty unpleasant thing.


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

Raising squabs year round and as many as possible is the goal.
I don't even know how many squabs I could actualy be talking about, when I raise them year round. All the squabs are to be tested on a 5.55 mile obsticle course in order to provide flock flight pattern and pecking order within the flock.

Many Thanks From,
Th'DirtyDozen


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

A pigeon hen will lay 2 eggs, which hatches in 18 - 21 days. The squabs are completely dependent on their parents until they start drinking and eating by themselves which will be around 30 days. 

Depending on the will of the pair, the next clutch of eggs may be laid from any day after 14 days of the previous hatch, continous breeding takes lot of resources from the pigeon and it is required they are given a break after the third clutch.

The above points are based on the fact that the pigeons are well fed and nutritioned, free from diseases and worms. You may also get eggs which may not be fertilized so dont end up hatching.

Why do you require to breed and raise squabs for the obstacle testings ? why can't you get some never flown young birds, bring them to your loft and carry out the obstacle course ?


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I think he is trying to start a release business with the all white birds, hence his need to get as many as possible as soon as possible. Really all that is required is an equal number of hens and cocks, good continuous feed and water as well as grit and a good supplement of calcium as you will be taxing the hens with all the egg laying. They will take care of the rest of it themselves. Pigeons are fairly prolific breeders.


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

I think a good source of calcium is what I do not have yet. 

And yes, what I must do very closely resembles a release buisness, but without the longer distance and without the money.

The reasons for the white racers are only for having a sub-standard race pigeon flock for the testing. ("like a white lab rat", fast or slow, smart or dumb, they are all equaly important for the evaluation) All the birds are to be released with GPS track recorders.

What is your best favored source of calcium?

Many Returns,
Th'DirtyDozen


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

You can order calcium supplements from the online stores like Foys, Siegel's, Jedd's, New England pigeon supplies etc. Crushed egg shell which have been cleaned and dried, calcium grits, oyster shells, etc are also preffered sources.


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## BlackWing (Apr 2, 2010)

Th'DirtyDozen said:


> Raising squabs year round and as many as possible is the goal.
> I don't even know how many squabs I could actualy be talking about, when I raise them year round. All the squabs are to be tested on a 5.55 mile obsticle course in order to provide flock flight pattern and pecking order within the flock.
> 
> 
> Th'DirtyDozen


What will happen to the Pigeons when you are done with your tests?


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

*The Quantum World is Stranger Than Fiction*

That was a question that had been on my mind from the beginning of my studies in quantum physics which was about 6 years ago. Back then I had allot of ideas that all had a bad outcome for the birds.

I come from a very ruff background in the Army Infantry. I am a Vietnam era veteran and was one of the top training Sgts at the national training center way back then. Being a native Texan, having hunted and killed almost everything that was legal to kill, didn't help the bird's situation one bit. Lets just say, "back in the beginning", I had allot of recipes lined up to take care of that problem. But that was before I began studying about these wonderful birds and the culture of people that love them. As I began to read more and more of their abilities, first I found that they made the perfect "lab rat" for many of the things that I am looking for. At first I was very fascinated that they had the ability to race like a dog or a horse (some of my first investigations involved dogs and horses as their physical ability can be quantified through racing). Then after about 2 years of reading about these birds, I began to develop a very big soft spot.

So what's going to happen to the birds?

I worked out a deal with a white pigeon breeder. I raise and fully test his pigeons, then send them home to his loft in pigeon heaven. He gets a very well tested bird for it's abilities and I get allot of data that I need. It's a win/win for the both of us.

Besides, I don't like using that much wine sauce....

Thanks for asking, that did need clarifying.

Here's a video of some guys looking for some of the same things as I am in a Minnesota mine shaft;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vilx7RSlups&feature=player_embedded

Thanks again for letting me be on the forum,

Th'DirtyDozen


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

This is starting to sound rather strange. AND sending the birds home to pigeon heaven sounds lke in the end the birds will be killed. Plus What kind of adverse conditions will being put on the birds to do this testing. Looking at the link provided It seems this would end up being a torture for the birds. AND I am not sure this is a legit idea or a hoax type thread. I think you should explain more . And what kind of credit you have for this type of study And what would it benifit.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

re lee said:


> This is starting to sound rather strange. AND sending the birds home to pigeon heaven sounds lke in the end the birds will be killed. Plus What kind of adverse conditions will being put on the birds to do this testing. Looking at the link provided It seems this would end up being a torture for the birds. AND I am not sure this is a legit idea or a hoax type thread. I think you should explain more . And what kind of credet you have for this type of study And what would it benifit.


I agree!, this is not how animals should be treated. something is fishy as in his profile he can't even spell behaviour. ban him!!!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree. Doesn't sound right. Something is "off" here.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I agree!, this is not how animals should be treated. something is fishy as in his profile he can't even spell behaviour. ban him!!!


Easy turbo before you start casting stones, either you are mocking how he spelled it, which isn't nice, or you can't spell either. And since when are we the grammar police? (Don't get angry just because I started a sentence with 'and'.)


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

*Hoax?*

Please excuse me,

*somehow I feel like Dr. Frankenstein being chased by an angry mob*

Are the use of GPS loggers to track flock behavior patterns considered cruel to use in tracking a race pigeon? Many other universities around the globe are now using these new GPS devices. Some of the most important bird research in the world was done using an older style GPS system that had to be attached using Velcro on the bare backs of the pigeons tested. I will not be using this old style GPS system. I will be using the "Pathfinder GPS systems" that are attached by way of a small harness.

Here's an example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS66rN1QC3I

As for particles falling from space;
Particles fall on us all the time, every day, and all night as well to a lesser degree. The fact that we now have sensors that can detect them should not frighten anyone. NASA now has many experiments employing many different disciplines of scientific endeavor. This research into what could be called "space weather" is so important to man kind that NASA bumped some other research studies off the last of the last shuttle missions just to be able to accommodate it.
Ever wonder what happened to an entire racing flight of birds that just never showed back up? This type of particle research could hold a yet unseen answer. We truly do not know how these particles are effecting us in our daily lives or, how they may effect astronauts behavior/abilities on their way to mars.

I should have used the word sanctuary instead of heaven as heaven can be viewed as many different things depending on your world view.

I'm not sure why this posting should be considered a hoax or cruel to birds in any way.

New science has always been met with opposition. It is one of the ways that scientists can tell if their on the right track to a break through. But if I have offended anyone, you have my sincere apologies. I am a member and do abide by the suggested ARPU proper treatment of pigeons.

Many Returns,

Th'DirtyDozen


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Matt Bell said:


> Easy turbo before you start casting stones, either you are mocking how he spelled it, which isn't nice, or you can't spell either. And since when are we the grammar police? (Don't get angry just because I started a sentence with 'and'.)


 Anyone doing a "quantum physics experiment" I was thinking would know how to spell that, that is what seems odd to me.. I do not cast stones, Im a terrible speller/typist and being correted does not bother me in the least.

If you want to support such experiments with live birds then this is the wrong forum. IMO


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

We are not opposed to new science, we are opposed to some of the new members we have experienced here, who come disguised as sheep when actually they are wolves. Yes, there have been hoaxes and those who are cruel to birds who have posted on our forum.

We have learned to be careful.

No judgement calls, just telling you the truth.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> Anyone doing a "quantum physics experiment" I was thinking would know how to spell that, that is what seems odd to me.. I do not cast stones, Im a terrible speller/typist and being correted does not bother me in the least.
> 
> If you want to support such experiments with live birds then this is the wrong forum. IMO


Do you race birds? This fellow is doing research trying to discern why it is that some of our race birds are lost, and once he is finished the birds will be going to a secure home to live out their days. Now unless you are cold and heartless and don't ever care about what happens to the birds which don't show back up, I don't see how this research could be cruel? If these birds get lost they have gps trackers on them so they can be recovered, more than any of the racers (myself included) does for their birds.


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## BlackWing (Apr 2, 2010)

I thank you for being open and honest and that by itself account for something. I recon there is 100’s of tests that’s being doing on that we don’t have an idea about. Some of them is for the good of the human race. 

I will say something and I will possibly be knocked over the fingers for what I’m about to say but this is a Forum and we can chat about things or say what we think - My personal opinion is that there is no “living being” that is more cruller that the human race. For instance being an EX South African- English my second language .......... there has being 20 000 murders , 50 000 rapes in six months in south Africa and no one is saying nothing about that. 3000 farmers have being murdered ( Take 3000 farmer from any country in the world and you will have a massive decline in food production and the economical aftermaths ), 50 KG rocks are being thrown of bridges onto motor vehicles on a daily basis killing innocent families. The world cup soccer is starting in South Africa in 30 days ....... Do you guys know how many people will lose their lives in that time ??????????? They are selling “STAB Proof vest” on EBay for something like US$49-00. They don’t stab you in SA they shoot ................... They will kill you for as little as $1 ........... come on people this is the real world. Yes we love our sport&Pigeons but the good outcome will be adoption (what i think the best thing will be) or animal rescue centre and they will live. How many pigeons get culled every year?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Matt Bell said:


> Do you race birds? This fellow is doing research trying to discern why it is that some of our race birds are lost, and once he is finished the birds will be going to a secure home to live out their days. Now unless you are cold and heartless and don't ever care about what happens to the birds which don't show back up, I don't see how this research could be cruel? If these birds get lost they have gps trackers on them so they can be recovered, more than any of the racers (myself included) does for their birds.


I am the one who put the thread/ posts in question when i read it you can go back and reread the posts It sounded like the birds would end up being killed quote sent to bird heaven Not using wine sauce. And getting what thought would be DUMB race birds / white homers. NOW that more has come to light It sounds like it may be valid on the study. THIS will not help on why the birds get lost there are many reasons a bird get lost or never gets home. But it may show some flight paths on the lesser birds And how they can not find there way. Which is the birds unseen weakness. Then the old 25 other reasons the birds never come home will still be hidden. So if this person wants to keep us posted on continued results it may be interesting.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I would like to know a little more about what he does and when its over maybe I can get 1 of those gps things he has. I would like to see the path my birds take, any thing that would help my birds works for me.
Dave


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

I have actually read some studies similar to what this poster is going to be running, not surprisingly most of them found that the birds with enough training actually began to recognize highways, and would follow the roads home, obviously not the ideal situation as this adds miles and slows the progress they make.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't think that by saying "pigeon heaven" he meant the after death. If these tests will help to know better about the birds and their behaviour, we should rather support him. At the same time if this is a hoax I am not sure how to find that out but anyway the person will collect the information if he really wants that, either from here or from some where else. It ain't that difficult these days to find out information on these, even a read of our resources section helps a lot


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

*The Test Pigeon's Situation and the need for more...*

These are a few examples of race birds gone missing in large numbers;

07-22-2004
Dateline: STOCKHOLM, Sweden
Organizers of a race for homing pigeons were still scratching their heads in wonder Thursday after about 1,500 of the birds, famous for their ability to find their way home, went missing during the contest.

Of the 2,000 pigeons let loose last week, only about 500 have returned to their lofts after the 150-kilometer (93 mile) flight between the cities of Ljungby and Malmoe in southern Sweden, said Lars-Aake Nilsson of the Malmoe Homing Pigeon Club.

"The weather was perfect _ no rain, no thunder and no strong winds," … 

http://www.solarstorms.org/SPigeons.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,867276,00.html


This is my and the my birds situation (I do not own them, they are on loan to me);

There are 10 birds who's blood line can be traced to one loft dating back to at least 1977.

I cannot introduce any more birds to the flock.

These 10 will produce 2 rounds of offspring each. (<- those first birds go back to their owners)

The two rounds of eggs, now young pigeons and in flying shape, begin flying with a GPS strapped to them.

They fly 5.55 miles, "that's it".

They fly this 5.55 miles many times to establish a base line of average data for each bird.

Then after testing, those will have one round of offspring and repeat the testing with their young.

They "all go back" to the owners of the first 10.

Anyone can GPS test any bird at any time, but that would be a "random sampling" which would show random data from a random flock. Most flocks are raised for their race performance, these were not. They represent a common, low grade, only average race pigeon. That is why they were chosen for this project.

Such space weather "could" be effecting pigeons in many races, but with an effect of lesser degree than them all just vanishing.

With our current knowledge of particle weather in space, we do not know if this is effecting us as humans or not. We can only look at what effect it may have in the animal kingdom. Animals do not lie to us, they just do what they do and it is my job to watch what they do in this experiment. I only hope that I am good at what I do with them.

Just assuming that things are this way, or that way is not an option in good science. It is also not good science to assume that a book learned knowledge is as good as a true farmer's experience, or in this case, a true pigeon fancier.

======================

One big question of mine in this, is; "Can 10 birds make a healthy flock of 50 without being too in-bread.

This study will be going on at least for the next 4 years.

Thanks to all and many returns,

Th'DirtyDozen


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## Spuchie09 (Apr 27, 2010)

Dude, you are a freak. I think you are on the wrong website. People on this site are here to raise, observe, and race pigeons, not slaughter them for "the many recipes" you have. I am a hunter as well living in California and I have no ambition to torture and kill my birds. When your ready to get rid of your birds send them my way, I will find a home for them...and its not on a BBQ.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Spuchie09 I think you are way off base here. I dont think he means to eat the birds or they would have allready. I've lost 3 600 mi day birds from 40 mi so if he can find out what is going on I would like to know.
Dave


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

I am only here to help these bird's situation.
Please read the entire post before casting such a judgement on me. Others see your post without reading my own.

I don't think your reading the post or we have a comunication gap. What part of "these pigeons go back to their owners" is missleading to you?

It has only been in this forum that I have learned that some people consider a bird having to carry a GPS Logger "a torture" to any bird.

Here are some examples of GPS Loggers being sold for pigeons to make you feel better about using them;

http://pigeontrack.com/

http://www.pigeongps.com/index-en.htm

http://www.gemsupplements.com/shopcart/index.php?p=p_9&sName=GEM--GPS

they all are about 10-12 grams in wieght.

Th'DirtyDozen


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## Spuchie09 (Apr 27, 2010)

He said that when he is done testing the birds he sends them to pigeon heaven... why? why not give them away to someone who wants them?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Spuchie09 said:


> *He said that when he is done testing the birds he sends them to pigeon heaven... why?* why not give them away to someone who wants them?




I noticed that too. I'd like to know why that needs to be the end result as well. Doesn't make sense to me.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Th'DirtyDozen said:


> That was a question that had been on my mind from the beginning of my studies in quantum physics which was about 6 years ago. Back then I had allot of ideas that all had a bad outcome for the birds.
> 
> I come from a very ruff background in the Army Infantry. I am a Vietnam era veteran and was one of the top training Sgts at the national training center way back then. Being a native Texan, having hunted and killed almost everything that was legal to kill, didn't help the bird's situation one bit. Lets just say, "back in the beginning", I had allot of recipes lined up to take care of that problem. But that was before I began studying about these wonderful birds and the culture of people that love them. As I began to read more and more of their abilities, first I found that they made the perfect "lab rat" for many of the things that I am looking for. At first I was very fascinated that they had the ability to race like a dog or a horse (some of my first investigations involved dogs and horses as their physical ability can be quantified through racing). Then after about 2 years of reading about these birds, I began to develop a very big soft spot.
> 
> ...


Am I getting my English wrong here ? If so please excuse. Does that sentence marked in bold mean that its about the heaven after death ? or is it that we don't agree that there is no heaven on earth apart from that after death ?


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

*Thanks for the Calcium advise....*



Th'DirtyDozen said:


> "Greetings All", from a guy that never raised pigeons before and I thank you for this forum.
> 
> You may find it as funny as I do, having never raised a pigeon and is working on the science of their behavior. I've read allot of books, that have said many things about pigeons that just don't have many consistent answers between them. In my work I have found that you can read "how to books" forever and never really know anything unless you actually do it.
> 
> ...


PLEASE EXCUSE ME FOR SHOUTING,

But,

WHAT PART OF "DIEING FROM OLD AGE OR HAWKS" CAN BE MISSUNDERSTOOD FROM THE ORIGINAL POST?

"THESE BIRDS GO BACK TO THEIR OWNERS"!

Or is this that is being posted as a reply to me, "just spam"?

I don't know how more clearly that can be understood. 

I just came here for advise on Homing Pigeons. I can only wonder what response I could have to my second post.....If I dare have another....

Th'DirtyDozen

Edit) Some of the owners lofts look better than mine does (though mine is a 8X8 with 2 4X8 fly pens). So I called their lofts "pigeon heaven". I am very sad for any confusion.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

OK...then what's the comment about wine sauce all about? You have us very confused.


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

OMG, you people are unbelievable. Please read and follow the thread instead of throwing up your hands and posting on instinct. Many of you are re-habbers and at the first possible hint that anything bad could happen you are ready to throw the book at a person. In fact this fellow is performing an experiment which is good for the sport. He has explained and re-explained his original post yet, its obvious most of you only read the first one and then try to chastise him for it.

Now to the original poster: just a few suggestions as I know how experiments work and such I am not sure you can now incorporate these but here goes, I would suggest tests of further than 5.5 miles, many times the birds will just fly in a large circle when they can see the loft, not actually homing just exercising which may give some false results in your data. As far as inbreeding, you should be fine for 2 generations, but to be safe in your case just be sure you don't mate any brothers and sisters together. What will you be comparing the data to? Previous similar experiments or will you be using generation one as the control and then the actual experiment will be on generation 2?


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

*I think this is a family pet issue.... my apology*

I don't have the same feelings towards these birds as you do, "yet". But I can imagine that in the future, I will. My family cooked them when I was young. I cannot change that history.
I have not eaten or killed a pigeon now for over 31 years.

I know that some of yours and other poster's pigeons are like family to you. Like a pet dog or cat. "It was very absentminded for me to have not remembered that fact when I made my first post. Please forgive me for that. The thought of eating a family member would be quite repulsive to me too! So, please forgive me.

The birds tried to teach me that same lesson last week. But I guess I didn't pay enough attention to what was being said.

I got permission from one of the owners for me to be able to interact with one of the birds. They said yes, so I took that opportunity. So I chose one bird that seemed young, shy and unhappy. The bird without a name, I called it "Pluto". After that, I began looking for Pluto and playing the "head bobbing game". He would bob his head, then I would bob my head too. I did this every day with him at cleaning and feeding time.

Then one day I came into the loft and saw Pluto, so I started talking to him, asking Pluto about how his day was going. (I don't know it's gender). Then was the first time that I had ever been pooped on by any of the pigeons. I felt it hit my shoulder. So I stopped and slowly turned around and started taking to the bird that pooped on me. I asked it, "why are you pooping on me, what did I ever do to you?" This bird then flew to a perch right in front of me. I read the AU Band number and that as you could probably guess, was Pluto.

I may be a strange person to be getting into the pigeon world, but I do see your point, as well as Pluto's.

Please forgive me,
Th'DirtyDozen


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

K days as it went to be called high solar flare days Has been noticed for many years months that have more solar days ten to cause more problems. You can see the birds flying at lowere altitudes i have seen themflying so low they had to go up to clear barb wire fences. Streams rivers and high ways the birds will route using them. the Birds fly in a arc like a plane does And will wonder off coarse getting there bearings at times. The birds on shorter distances sometimes takle longer getting home as they probaly have routed out that far in loft flying times. Todays birds are scattered often by MISTER HAWK as it has made a large come back. This takes the birds off the line and even gets them lost from say fear and the running flight to get away. drag by leader birds takes the lesser birds the wrong way and gets them lost. Studies have been done Many atime on the race bird The milatary said once if it could figure out how the homing pigeon could find its way home from such a distance They could make a very accurate guided missle. TODAYS missles Are very on the mark The computer age and Gps got them there. with You idea of gps times space interferance a valid study may show that our sun and sokar flares / storms do have a big impact . other waves radar microwave ect. May be interesting. NOW Raising young of 10 birds 2 rounds 4 ea lets say 40 birds if the 10 pair are not close you will have no problems at all just record yourt pairs and relationship each season. You nwill find like others 1 in ten birds will be the best the other 9 in ten will not So just that small percent will show there adversity And the others will follow. BUT as said 5.5 miles Is not a good test BUT if its done from exposer it would be A place to start.


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> OMG, you people are unbelievable. Please read and follow the thread instead of throwing up your hands and posting on instinct. Many of you are re-habbers and at the first possible hint that anything bad could happen you are ready to throw the book at a person. In fact this fellow is performing an experiment which is good for the sport. He has explained and re-explained his original post yet, its obvious most of you only read the first one and then try to chastise him for it.
> 
> Now to the original poster: just a few suggestions as I know how experiments work and such I am not sure you can now incorporate these but here goes, I would suggest tests of further than 5.5 miles, many times the birds will just fly in a large circle when they can see the loft, not actually homing just exercising which may give some false results in your data. As far as inbreeding, you should be fine for 2 generations, but to be safe in your case just be sure you don't mate any brothers and sisters together. What will you be comparing the data to? Previous similar experiments or will you be using generation one as the control and then the actual experiment will be on generation 2?


Generation 1 all go back o the owners of them and Generation 2 will be flight tested. There is a small lake that they will decide to cross, or not to cross and instead go around on the land's side.
The test is broken down into 4 qualities; speed, leadership, navigational thinking and none of the above. There are 4 diffrent particle showers, or partical turbulance effects. We don't even know if these effects are particles or not. We just know that there are 4 simi-known qualities that have been observed.

Many Returns,
Th'DirtyDozen


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Th'DirtyDozen said:


> That was a question that had been on my mind from the beginning of my studies in quantum physics which was about 6 years ago. Back then I had allot of ideas that all had a bad outcome for the birds.
> 
> I come from a very ruff background in the Army Infantry. I am a Vietnam era veteran and was one of the top training Sgts at the national training center way back then. Being a native Texan, having hunted and killed almost everything that was legal to kill, didn't help the bird's situation one bit. Lets just say, "back in the beginning", I had allot of recipes lined up to take care of that problem. But that was before I began studying about these wonderful birds and the culture of people that love them. As I began to read more and more of their abilities, first I found that they made the perfect "lab rat" for many of the things that I am looking for. At first I was very fascinated that they had the ability to race like a dog or a horse (some of my first investigations involved dogs and horses as their physical ability can be quantified through racing). Then after about 2 years of reading about these birds, I began to develop a very big soft spot.
> 
> ...


So what is your name ? Where did you go to school ? What University or Company are you doing this research for ? I mean this all sounds like some elaborate but unconvincing story to me.

When there were research studies in the past, people would approach us and say things like....

"Hello, 

My name is John Smith, I am attending the University of Pennsylvania, and I am interested in working with pigeons on a research project. The basic premise of the project is to discover if the homing ability of the homing pigeon is affected by solar activity etc. etc. blah...blah...blah "....then they would ask if we would be willing to assist in the project, etc.

No discussion of wine sauces, or a ruff life in the Infantry, pigeon heaven....or....PS) Because of the quantum physics involved within this experiment, many things about it cannot be discussed (that has to do with waves becoming particles by human intervention). and other such off the wall stuff. 

I don't know or really care if you are really involved in some sort of experiments or not. I may have been, had you taken the time to actually share with us how the experiments you proposed would demonstrate in some fashion, something that might have given us some insight into our pigeon's navigation abilities. As it stands right now, I don't have a clue, what your proposed experiments hope to demonstrate or prove.

I always thought, it was a fairly well known fact, that pigeons will breed year round. Seems that not having an actual pigeon fancier on board as a consultant on your project, was a pretty serious oversight on someone's part. Months, or years into the project, because of a lack of understanding of the homing pigeon, and your entire colony could be wiped out within about 3 days. That would sort of put a crimp into this research.

I would have thought, if you were already working with a white pigeon breeder, that he could have advised you on such things as egg production. And white pigeon breeders are either racing these birds, raising them for food, or for the so called white dove release business. Vast majority of these kind of folks, are not going to want or need say 40 birds back at some point in the future, so perhaps the first reference to pigeon heaven, was exactly what a normal person would think it is. 

PS. Inbred is not spelled as In-bread as you did on http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=472495&postcount=23 So when you type up your report for NASA or the CIA, or whoever this experiement is for, be sure to employ a spell checker.


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

OK, I get it !

Moderators that don't know what moderate means and a dyslexic like me and Albert Einstein can't spell, OK, I get that too.

Maybe you give your winning pigeons (they look very nice) Red Bull or Crack before a race for all I, or anyone else knows.
Does that mean that it's true? Or maybe we need a witch hunt!

Do you need my credit card info or my pen number?
My wife or children's names?
Do you need my home address or telephone number?
Do you need to know any of my friend's names?

I don't think it's a very good idea for anyone to "post" such things on the open Internet.

The reason anyone does research is for something we don't know allot about. If we knew all the answers, then there would be no need to ask about anything in the world.

And yes I served my country and have a mind set that possibly has some adjustments to make before speaking to those who have not. I apologized for my rude and crude comment.

I also apologize for having ever posted a simple question as egg production anywhere on "your forum".

Best of Luck and bye bye
TDD


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Come on.... keep it cool people, I don't think there is really anything in this post to bash each others like this.


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## cotdt (Apr 26, 2010)

It's an interesting experiment. Everyone needs to calm down.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Well for those who would like to conduct their own "quantum physics" experiment, even if you were not in the Airborne Infantry. I suggest you check the space weather before you take your birds on a training toss or a race, with or without a GPS device, and measure your birds speed under different conditions. You just might find, that under different conditions, the birds just might arrive at different times. 

http://www.spaceweather.com/


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## Flapdoodle (Nov 8, 2009)

Matt and Dirtydozen in what part of Dallas do you guys live? It seems like maybe you guys should hook up and go to lunch or something being that live in the same town or do you guys already know each other? The way you come to his rescue Matt it seems like your already bff (best friends forever).

Anyway there are several ways to get more young from key breeders, search poly breeding or bull breeding... I read an article a few years ago from chic brooks on a poly breeding system (try to google it). You could also just place eggs under foster parents and get three or four rounds out of your key group...


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

Actually I am in San Antonio right now, and no I don't have any idea who he is. Certain people on this site jump to conclusions without ever having been around racing pigeons and paint fanciers out to be the most evil people in the world. Wish they cared as much for their common man as they do the birds, our society would be a heck of a lot better.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Matt Bell said:


> Actually I am in San Antonio right now, and no I don't have any idea who he is. Certain people on this site jump to conclusions without ever having been around racing pigeons and paint fanciers out to be the most evil people in the world. *Wish they cared as much for their common man as they do the birds*, our society would be a heck of a lot better.


 I understand your point, but the reality is, the greatest natural enemy of man....is not a lion or a bear any more, it is man. So, I completely understand why some people like animals and birds more then people. The truth of the matter is, animals and birds are much more trustworthy, and often much more predictable.

A bit OT I must admit.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

well this is the weirdest thread in awhile... 

Matt, I appreciate you trying to "make me see the light"..but it's not working.

rewind.... egg production was his question...wanting these few breeders of his to "breed like rabbits" "all year long" That is not a good idea for the health of these birds...three rounds In a year I would say is best...or at least give them a break at some point. people use lights in the winter to get their breeders going..adding longer days with lighting will keep them going perhaps... but to breed them like rabbits just for an experiment is something I just do not agree with and that is just my opinion...and you know what people say about those...lol..


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## Th'DirtyDozen (May 7, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> well this is the weirdest thread in awhile...
> 
> Matt, I appreciate you trying to "make me see the light"..but it's not working.
> 
> rewind.... egg production was his question...wanting these few breeders of his to "breed like rabbits" "all year long" That is not a good idea for the health of these birds...three rounds In a year I would say is best...or at least give them a break at some point. people use lights in the winter to get their breeders going..adding longer days with lighting will keep them going perhaps... but to breed them like rabbits just for an experiment is something I just do not agree with and that is just my opinion...and you know what people say about those...lol..



Great answer, and thanks. I am looking forward to 2 rounds of eggs per couple and I got some good calcium grit to help the hens.

Thanks,
Th'DirtyDozen


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