# Woodie With Serious Wounds To Back



## amyable

HI,
I had a young Woodie brought to me last night and it's been badly mauled.
It has virtually no skin across it's back and neck and it's crop has been ruptured by a possible puncture wound entering from behind.

It smelt very bad and I spent last night trying to clean out the contents of it's crop as it was full of seeds spilling out of the hole around it's shoulder.
The smell seemed to come from the crop and it was full of white stuff and had some massive nuts stuck in there.

The bird is very alert and lively but I don't know if I can save it due to the extent of it's injuries.

I luckily had a few Synulox left over from the last bird that went to Nooti so have started it on them. All I could do was clean and bathe the wounds and plucked as many feathers away from the worst parts.

Today it's still with me and alert so I had another go at cleaning it's crop out as nothing had gone through since last night.
I got some more very large nuts out again and it didn't seem to smell quite as bad so I think the smell is from the crop not the wounds.

I just tried to tube it some Kaytee to see if that went through but it split out of the side so I've cleaned the bird up and put it back to rest.

I'll post some pictures in the next post with a warning about their content as they're not pleasant for those who don't want to look.

Is there anything I can do for this poor little soul as I fear it will starve to death if I can't get any food through it and also is there any chance of the skin growing over the back. A vet would just euthanise it so if I can't help I'd have to consider that as I don't want it to suffer.

Any thoughts and help greatly appreciated.

Janet

ps. I'm afraid I'll only be able to pop back on and off occasionally tonight as I've got my daughter's 18th birthday party about to kick off in an hour, and am out a good chunk of tomorrow, so please don't think I'm ignoring any posts of help if I don't respond immediately.


----------



## amyable

*Warning Unpleasant Images*

This is a close up of the back injuries.
The hole on the left is the opening of the crop:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/amyable_photos/BadlyMauledWoodie002.jpg

The contents I cleaned from the crop today. You can see from the size of my finger how big these nuts were !

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/amyable_photos/BadlyMauledWoodie003.jpg


----------



## Feefo

Hi Janet,

Phone Helen! Have you alerted Pidgey?

Cynthia


----------



## Feefo

OK, I have e-mailed Pidgey...dehydration will be a problem, any chance of getting just a tiny bit of rehydration solution at a time to the bottom of the crop?

The back injuries: this is what Helen did for "Almost Lunch":

... here is today's new patient. At first glance this injured
pidge doesn't look too bad. Extend his neck and you see that all the
flesh surrounding the neck, shoulders and spine has gone. His spine
and shoulder bones are exposed, although that is difficult to see
through all the red.* He's now installed under heat lamp with Synulox
in his system and the wound covered with BR jel.* He should survive -
whether he'll regenerate enough muscle to fly again is another
matter. This is probably a sparrowhawk attack. 

Cynthia


----------



## amyable

I've got problems tonight with the internet crashing just when I need it, will come on as much as I can.

The description of 'Almost Lunch' is pretty much it, so won't give up on him. 

I have been dripping rehydration liquid into him. Helen gave me some orange antibacterial cream when I met her and I've been putting some of that on the raw areas. That's why it tends to be looking yellowy in colour.

Janet


----------



## Feefo

> Helen gave me some orange antibacterial cream when I met her and I've been putting some of that on the raw areas. That's why it tends to be looking yellowy in colour.


That will be the BR jel, Helen swears by it.


----------



## amyable

I've just been to give him his anti-biotics and some more fluids.
Nothing is going through him still. I've just got another two of the large nuts out of his crop. Together with last nights that makes nine of those nuts along with some small seeds and various suspect things in there.
The Kaytee was still in the crop and there's a bit of blood on the cotton bud when I cleaned the muck out.

I syringed a small amount of hydrating fluid down his throat into the crop to try and flush it a bit. I'm concerned he may have something blocking the food from passing down into his digestive system.
If he's still with me tomorrow I might try and syringe some digestive enzymes down him to see if that helps things pass through.
I've had to put him back to rest again as he gets stressed after a while. He's coping so well though but he must be feeling wrotten.

Janet


----------



## c.hert

I looked at your profile---very commendable---and your birds are just beautiful and healthy and I am sure in time with your new birdie the decision making will come and I say a birdie prayer that something positive comes up with its treatment program especially in getting nutrition into him and no knowing you but reading your profile and all those nice pictures--this bird is in the best of care---Spirits bless---.c.hert


----------



## Pidgey

Of course, I don't have any experience with woodies and their problems with getting excited and going into what amounts to shock from being handled. If you can't get any fluids (and, therefore, oral medications) in, then you may have to resort to some other way like I had to do here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/signs-of-life-27445.html

Hate doing it that way but in an emergency you're sometimes stuck. 

I'm having a difficult time envisioning where all that damage is because not enough of the bird is shown to get a reference. As long as nothing vital has been destroyed, the bird should be able to make it as long as we can get the GI working again. Are the breast muscles full or is this bird kinda' lean?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable

Hi,

I'm just home for a short while and having checked in on him he's still very alert and standing.
He's a juvenile, around 3to4 weeks approx, so not massive and well developed.
As far as Woodie type of stress levels he's coping very well, much better than an adult and will sit quietly on my lap while I've been cleaning out the crop.

I can't believe I've got another two nuts out today and also a couple of very small snails.  He's got to be empty soon. The smell from the crop has gone. There's some blood on the nuts and cotton bud again from inside. 
Where these nuts are coming from I don't know as I can't feel anything in the crop when I massage it. He has a flap and somehow these nuts get pushed to the surface of the hole.

He's taking fluids well from a syringe if I drip it along his beak he sips it ok.

I've been giving him the Synulox tablets and so far haven't seen any evidence of them coming out of the hole so I hope he's getting them ok.

I'll be free later on once our party's over and will take some better pics of his back injuries.

Thanks for the link.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey

In theory, that hole in the crop should be fairly high up, enough to hopefully allow formula to gravity-feed through. Watching the poops at this point will be the ticket to figuring out whether anything's actually making it through or not. Given the possibility for a Pasteurella multocida infection, you can't afford to go too long without either getting an injectable in there or doing that thing up the vent if there's any chance that the oral route isn't working. Best of luck!

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

Ah! Good thinking Pidgey....I had forgotten that the synulox might not go through!  . 

I think I will try to get some injectable from my vet to keep for emergencies like these...


----------



## amyable

Hi, just snook back in to give him some more fluids.

I'm not confident he's going to make it now as he seems to be tiring and closing his eyes more.

Another nut just came out and the smell's back. More bleeding inside aswell.

He's very thirsty and bless him he's nuzzling the syringe to get a drink. Then I put his bowl by him and he put his beak in and drank so much. Unfortunately
I then felt my trousers were wet and could see as he was drinking it was pouring out of his side.
Maybe it's flushing him out a bit.

The hole is so large it would need stitching I'm sure but I wouldn't think that was a good idea while there's so much muck still coming out of the crop.

I really don't know what to do for him at the moment other than keep getting this stuff out of the crop as it surfaces.

Should I try some more Kaytee later even if the crop is bleeding?

Janet


----------



## Feefo

Poor baby...I would keep him on rehydrating fluids only just a bit longer, Josefina just had Hartmann's for a couple of days.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

Picture of the poops? That is... are there any?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable

Hi,

This evening when I checked the bleeding was worse in the crop and it has a slight smell again.
Yet another nut came out tonight with some other gunk.
He seems to get agitated and flaps about then a nut comes to the surface of the hole. Once I get it out he calms down. I still can't believe how many have come out whole.

I didn't try for a picture of the crop hole tonight as he seemed uncomfortable. The tear in the outer skin is very bad and I can't see how it can be put together as there's no skin in some places to stitch. Will see how he is tomorrow and try for a picture again.

He's not stressed at being handled now which is a blessing. He's very thirsty and will drink constantly from the syringe. I just have to let him have enough so it doesn't come out of the hole. Hard to say if any is going through his system.

He did a poop down my trousers and I scooped it up on some kitchen paper.
Very dark.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/amyable_photos/BabyWoodiePoops002.jpg

Janet


----------



## Pidgey

If you can hold him upright without him getting too excited, it might be a good idea to do it for an extended period after him drinking or getting some thin formula. When I say "upright", I mean literally vertical. I'm a little worried about the poop showing dehydration.

Pidgey


----------



## jenfer

Janet, I know you said he was less stressed now, if you can get some homeopathic aconite (30c), that helps with fright. (Aconite is generally a great remedy to keep on hand for wildlife rehab--good for extreme terror/stress and for shock.) You can dissolve 1-2 pellets of the remedy in some (about 1 oz) spring or distilled water and give a few drops with an eye dropper.

The bleeding and increased thirst make me think of phosphorus. You can try that remedy like above.

Jennifer


----------



## amyable

Thank you Jennifer for reminding me. I gave him some Aconite when he first arrived but stupidly didn't continue.

I've just looked and I also have Phosphorus 30c. Can you just say how often I need to dose with that?
Thanks so much.

Janet

The bleeding isn't so bad today, but the smell is still there. When he first came and I opened the box, before I had examined him I thought the smell was like canker, but couldn't see any sign in his throat. Then on cleaning out the seeds from his crop, realised the smell was from there. Today I thought I'd crumble up a Spartrix and pop that down just in case there's anything further down.

I've been holding him vertically after giving him fluids and limiting him to just enough so it doesn't flood out again. He'll put up with it for about ten minutes before struggling to straighten up.
Also made up some Kaytee this afternoon and put a small amount of charcoal in it which reduced it to runny. Could just get 2ml in before it showed at the hole. Just been back to him two hours later and if I lightly press the crop I can't see any coming up through the hole.
Poops were the same this morning but the last one was more creamy with just a spec of dark. 

Tried to get a picture of where the tear is. The screen on my camera is damaged so I don't know what I've taken until I upload it. A bit of trial and error.

The hole into the crop is to the right of my thumb.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/amyable_photos/MauledWoodie002.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/amyable_photos/MauledWoodie004.jpg

Not sure where this is going but he's still alert and quite bright.

Janet


----------



## jenfer

Janet, I suppose I would give one dose, and watch for improvement, and then perhaps dose a second time over the course of one day. You can do the same the next day. Another way to do it is to give one dose a day for three days straight and then assess for improvement.

Do you think there is infection there, and that that's what is causing the smell?

I don't know if you can get it (do you have any herb shops near you?), but perhaps it would be worthwhile to get some calendula (marigold) flowers and make up a tea with that to bathe his crop/wounds. Calendula is known for helping skin to heal really quickly (and is also soothing) and also has antiseptic qualities. A bird person I know swears by it. (I have some at home but haven't had much opportunity yet to use it on the birds; I have used it on the cats with good results.)



> Not sure where this is going but he's still alert and quite bright.


I have no doubt that you are doing the right thing by this bird by trying to help him recover (which is more than most rehabbers around here would do with a wound like that!), and for that you have my utmost admiration and respect.

Jennifer


----------



## amyable

Hi Jennifer,

Initially I've been putting an anti-bacterial cream on his broken skin.

I've got HyperCal cream ( Hypericum and Calendula) and have rubbed some onto the surface of his back to help sooth it today.
I have got Hypercal Tincture which when diluted can be used for bathing wounds, which might be a close second to using the actual flower brewed up.
Although I've never used it yet I've also got Calendula Complex Tincture which can be diluted and is often taken to help with inflammation of the digestive tract. I've never used that one for bathing wounds but is probably ok aswell.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Calendula shouldn't be used on deep wounds as it can work too quickly. I think the danger then is that it might seal in any deep down dirt before the tissue underneath has had time to heal.
I'll check that out again.

Thank you so much for the info.

Janet

Yes the smell could just as well be infection, hard to tell. There was so much stuck in the crop that it maybe from the food being trapped in there.


----------



## Pidgey

Just out of curiosity, does he move the affected wing?

How much actual volume do you get out of his poops compared to a normal bird?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable

Yes I think he does have good use of that wing. I will double check tomorrow. He's just had another drink and gone to bed now. 

He's gone so laid back now he just sits on my lap without me having to hold him so he hasn't flapped today, (except when I've done the vertical hold he hates) but I'm holding his wings flat then.

Poops: In the space of two hours this evening he'd done four, and when I had him out just now he did another two, so approx two and hour.
Two earlier were more solid and green. The last two were runny slimey green. The urates are slightly more white than cream today.

He had another 2.5 mls of runny Kaytee this evening. Some spilled out when he had a tantrum being held upright again. Will try and do more feeds tomorrow and see what comes out then.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that feller probably needs at least six dry level teaspoons of Kaytee per day and probably more. One teaspoon of Kaytee has about 10 Calories in it. Here's a link to a former post about that:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=293720&postcount=15

If he weighs 200 grams, for instance, you'd want to try and get about 8 level teaspoons of Kaytee through him per day if possible, regardless of how much water you put through. Sounds rough, huh? Oh, well, that's in the ballpark of his current calorific needs.

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

Janet do you have any Poly Aid? THat has saved My Little Angel's life three times now.


----------



## amyable

Hi,

I've got both Kaytee and Poly Aid so will get something down him regularly over the course of today.
I'm worried as I have to go to Southampton all day Wednesday which means he'll be left for around twelve hours without anything so I will get as much in him today as he will allow.

The crop seems to have stopped bleeding my bigger concern at the moment is the smell seems to be coming from the space between the crop and his chest cavity. Quite a big space down there which he's uncomfortable about me messing with. I've got to make sure no food leaks out from his crop when I feed as it spills into this area, so it will have to be little and often I think to avoid leakage.

He's a bit more fluffed today, a bit worrying.

Thanks as always for the info.

Janet


----------



## jenfer

Janet, you're right about calendula not being recommended for deep wounds where bacteria could be sealed in. I guess in this case my idea was that it would help the crop heal so food could get through more easily and if the wounds are relatively clean, there would be little risk of trapping infection. But since you said there might be food in between the crop and the skin, I don't know if using the calendula would be a good idea.

Wish I had something more concrete to say!

Jennifer


----------



## amyable

Hi Jennifer,

Yes that's what I was worrried about and as he does flap and food tends to just spill out I'm constantly trying to keep the other cavity clean. What I have done after doing some more reading up last night is drip some Hypercal tincture into the area.
ALso I'm giving him Ledum and Hephar Sulph every three hours. Ledum is recommended for puncture wounds and I thought the Hephar could help with the supporation. Just trying anything although the site was geared to dogs !

Janet


----------



## amyable

Well the good news is he did his first brown poop this afternoon which I assume is from the Kaytee going through.

The bad news is I did one feed this afternoon with Poly Aid made quite runny like the kaytee and whether it's a coincidence, since then his crop won't clear. I gave him his Synulox tablet at the same time and that dissolved and came out of the tear.
I've just dropped some digestive enzymes into his beak and hope to goodness that will help. He was doing well up to then and was quite active.

His wings are fine, in fact he jumped out of his box and fluttered up onto the edge of the bath when I didn't get the top on his box quickly enough. 

I found a flat scab on the front of his chest today which I hadn't seen before. It's at the same level as the tear in the crop so I wonder if something went all the way through at one time.

So I've got to leave him all day tomorrow until the evening, maybe it will give the crop a chance to clear again and if he's spared and still with me, I'll start the Kaytee feeds again after that.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey

Have you been monitoring his weight through all of this and subtracting the weight of those huge seeds that you've been getting out to get an idea how he's really doing?

Pidgey


----------



## amyable

Hi,

Well bless him he survived the twelve hours I was away. I gave him a spoonful of Kaytee before we went and another tonight as soon as we got home.

He was 270gms yesterday.
When he first came he was around 285gms (including nuts). I've just weighed 4 of them I still have and reckon the twelve weighed 4.5gms in total.

I can't get over how little Kaytee his crop takes. Considering he had twelve of those massive nuts in there before to only get 2mls of liquid in at a time is nothing.

Anyway, I'll try and get as many feeds in as possible from tomorrow and keep a check on his weight and poops.

Janet


----------



## Pidgey

Ya' kinda' wish you didn't have to use Kaytee for these kinds of things. Medium sized seeds like peas and corn are better because they stay in packages, of course, so if they leak out, they're not so much of a problem. It's getting them to actually go through that can be the problem and certainly not if the plumbing is blocked or otherwise restricted.

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

Helen once told me that woodies can somehow clench their crops when being force fed, although that seems unlikely in this case as he has so little to clench.

I have a little bit of metoclopramide provided by Jayne, it is used for crop stasis and has helped My Little Angel...the post has gone today but I can send it tomorrow if it will help.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable

Hi,
Thanks Cynthia to be honest I don't know what would help. I've been giving a bit of Digestive Enzymes about half an hour after a feed. This liquifies the formula if mixed in with it and I've used it before when I've had a baby with slow crop.
I'm beginning to feel I'm not being fair to him which saddens me so much as he's been such a fighter. I can't believe he's still here after a week.

The smell has gone so I don't think there's any infection any more, but
the wound is showing no sign of closing on it's own and is as open as ever. No matter how little formula I give him it doesn't seem to be going through today.

I had hoped the crop would close up gradually on it's own and then maybe if there was no leakage from the side, food might go down.
(The eternal optimist. ), but it's not happened.

Janet


----------



## Feefo

He obviously has a strong will to live , because woodies give up the ghost very quickly. I think that you are managing wonderfully well, I don't think I could do it...I just wish that you could get Helen or her vet to look at it, see why the skin isn't regenerating.

My friend used hot compresses as acupuncture to help a pigeon regenerate skin when she had been scalped so badly that even her eyelid had gone. If I find an explanatory e-mail I will forward it to you.

Cynthia


----------



## amyable

Just to say I think he's taking the decision out of my hands.

He's gone downhill over the last hour and is fluffed up, sleepy and won't drink.

Only an hour ago he was bright and even trying to nibble my cotton bud, still nuzzling the syringe and taking fluid as normal, seemed quite ok, but it's like suddenly he's giving up.

He's also developed a reddish area on the left of his breast, almost like it's bled under the skin.
The sad thing is the injuries on his back are looking so much better today, new skin forming already. 

I've got him cuddled up on my lap and just keeping him warm. I think that's all I can do now.


Janet


----------



## lwerden

Janet............Sending healing thoughts and prayers your way. You've done everything you could and been a true angel to this bird. 

I pray this little one makes it.


----------



## amyable

You know I really thought he would make it as he's maintained his strength all the way and as you said showed such a strong will.

Sweet thing, he's just hopped onto my desk and has perched in front of the computer screen as if he's reading all I've written about him.

I'd decided this afternoon that I would have to take him to a vets and see if they could suture his crop if I begged hard enough not to PTS. I think it was his only chance if that could have been fixed, but I had to be prepared for them to euthanise him if they said no.

There's still a smell of Poly Aid in his crop and that was from two days ago, so I think there's more wrong than just the tear.

I feel very sad right now as for a Woodie he's been really easy to handle and so the normal fear of losing them through stress wasn't an issue and he put up with anything.


----------



## amyable

Thank you Louise.


----------



## jenfer

Janet, do you think the Reglan is worth a try if he's developed crop stasis? It couldn't hurt at any rate, and it just might help. The fact that he's as alert as he is sounding right at this moment is a positive factor, even though we realize, of course, that he still might not be able to recover physically.

Do you think the calendula wash would be worth a shot at this point? (Again, what could it really hurt?)

Jennifer


----------



## amyable

Jennifer you're right, nothing to lose really.

I could try some Calendula internally as it is given for digestive disorders.

I haven't actually got any Reglan, Cynthia has kindly offered to send me some but looking at him tonight I fear he may not last until it arrives.

Janet

I've just decided to not do anything else as I think he's fading and just needs peace.


----------



## jenfer

> I've just decided to not do anything else as I think he's fading and just needs peace.


There is tremendous value in being fully present with an animal and surrounding that being with love when they make the passage from this life. Just respecting and valuing their lives enough to try to heal them physically (even when we don't always succeed) is, I think, one of greatest things we can do for them.

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo

> There is tremendous value in being fully present with an animal and surrounding that being with love when they make the passage from this life. Just respecting and valuing their lives enough to try to heal them physically (even when we don't always succeed) is, I think, one of greatest things we can do for them.


THat is a beautiful and comforting thought, Jennifer.


----------



## amyable

Jennifer that is beautiful and no-one other than a carer would ever understand wanting to do that for a bird.

I'm staying up with him no matter how late it is as I can't bear to think of him passing on his own after all he's gone through.
Maybe he'll surprise me but really for his sake I hope he lets go now.

Janet


----------



## lwerden

jenfer said:


> There is tremendous value in being fully present with an animal and surrounding that being with love when they make the passage from this life. Just respecting and valuing their lives enough to try to heal them physically (even when we don't always succeed) is, I think, one of greatest things we can do for them.
> 
> Jennifer


Jennifer...........That is such a comforting, loving statement.

Janet.....My thoughts and a huge hug are with you.


----------



## amyable

I thought I'd just let you know Little'Un did pass away.

He did surprise me though. When he was still with me at three o clock this morning I decided to get some sleep and put him in his box on some heat next to me.
I couldn't believe it when I looked this morning and he was resting where I put him. For a moment I hoped I'd got another chance but when I picked him up he was too weak.
Bless him he was sitting in my hands and suddenly a Woodie cooed outside the window, he picked his head up, opened his eyes and gently passed away.

He was a strong brave little soul and I'll miss him.

Janet


----------



## Feefo

What a special bird he turned out to be! I wish that he could have been healed, but he is flying safely now. Thank you for giving him such loving and dedicated care, Janet.

Cynthia


----------



## jenfer

What a beautiful experience for you to have had, Janet--the kind that stays with you for a lifetime. I don't think it was an accident the way Little'Un was sitting in front of the computer last night (and that he was so calm throughout his stay with you), and I don't think it was a coincidence that the Woodie outside came to visit just before he passed.

Although Little'Un's body didn't recover, perhaps his spirit got from you just what it needed.

Jennifer


----------



## lwerden

So sorry Janet. You did an incredible job with him. He knew he was loved and died in peace.

FLY FREE AND HIGH LITTLE ONE


----------



## amyable

Thank you for your lovely words, I so wish he's made it too.

I felt blessed he waited for me to wake up before he passed and I had the chance to say goodbye.

(You know I sort of thought the Woodie outside called him to let go too).

I just want to thank you all, Pidgey included,  for the advice and back up, as always so appreciated.

Fly High Little'Un, free at last.


----------



## c.hert

Another day...so sorry...c.hert


----------



## Reti

It is amazing how strong those little babies can be and how attached we get to them while caring for them. You did an amazing job with him. Bless you and bless little 'Un'

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

I'm so sorry, Janet. Bless you and that little Woodie both. You both tried so very hard. Sending you big hugs.

Terry


----------

