# Feeding help needed for newly hatched pigeons.



## Squiggle Squab

This is my first time attempting to be a pigeon mum and it's proving to be very challenging and exhausting!
I have 2 newly hatched squabs (crested pigeons) from eggs that were rescued and I incubated. I have done lots of reading to try to figure out how to care for them. (I am experienced at raising chickens, not pigeons!).
The first hatched on Monday afternoon and the second 4am this morning (roughly 15 hrs ago, as I'm in Australia).
I am feeding them Neocare Bird Handraising Formula by Vetafarm here in Australia, which is meant to be the best I can get.
The first one, Flitter, is not eating much and not really ever acting hungry.
The second, Flutter, eats better, but her crop is not fully emptying. I'm not sure if it's full of formula or air?
I have been feeding them every 2 to 3 hours day and night.
Flutter ate more than usual last feed. The formula may have been just under the ideal temperature when I fed her (so difficult to keep it at exactly the right temp for the duration of the feed) and now it has been 3 hours and I don't know whether her crop is still too full to feed her again.
I am using a syringe cut off with a piece of balloon on the end to feed.
Can someone tell me whether I should continue with the frequency of feeds or wait for their crop to empty more.
Neither are really ever showing signs of hunger. They just sleep. Is this a bad sign at this early age?
I am attempting to attach a picture of Flutter, showing her crop 2 hours after her last feed.
Help would be greatly appreciated!


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## sreeshs

The feeding should be continued after the food is digested and crop deflates. I am attaching the links of two recent hand feeding incidents by our members, you will get ideas from those, including the concentration of the feed, type, feeding method, heat source, etc. I am not sure how Neocare is for pigeon squabs, here more references are for Kaytee formula but I think Roudybush squab formula is available in Australia

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-egg-is-hatching-and-i-dont-have-a-clue-47170.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/omg-bucket-babies-46970.html


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## Squiggle Squab

Many thanks.
I will read now!


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## sreeshs

The babies should be warm before feeding and the feed mixture should also be warm (not too warm but which can pass the wrist test), good luck and please keep us posted


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## Msfreebird

Do you have them on a heating pad? Warmth is VERY important to them at this stage. 
Heating pad set on *low* with a towel over it and something to 'snuggle' under.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much for the quick responses.
I have them under a red heat light and am warming their food to the correct temperature to start feeding.
I am mainly wanting to know whether this crop looks deflated enough to feed or whether it should get smaller.
Also whether I should expect them to act hungry. They just sleep and I am waking them for their feeds.
Here is a photo of Flutter straight after her feed.


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## Suew

I am by no means an expert but I will share what has worked well for Piji (now 7 days). during Piji's first four days we had problem with his crop not fully emptying and too much air in the crop as well. Piji slept a lot and some times I would have to wake him for feedings. Flutter's crop looks full in all pictures. I added an organic live active pro-biotic yogurt and some applesauce. Here are the ratios i used to start; I added 1/2:1/2:1 live active yogurt:apple sauce:kaytee powder. it worked really well for about a day and a half. then air and the slow crop returned (not as slow) so I added one drop organic apple cider instead of applesauce to each feeding for two days straight. It worked wonders. now we are down to one drop mixed into food once a day and yogurt once a day(piji's own system seems to be developed enough to take over). My solution to food cooling over the duration of the feeding has been to heat a small pan of hot water on the stove. I take it to the area we feed Piji. as the food cools I swirl the bottle in the pan of water, do a temperature check with a digital fever thermometer, resume the feeding as long as the food is between 102 and 103.5 degrees Fahrenheit or 39 and 40 degrees Celsius. Also Piji is now living on a padded heating pad. he loves to curl up in a sock or under a stuffed animal. Everything that I have done with Piji has come from direct advice or researching posts by wonderful people on this forum.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much Suew.
I had been reading your thread as my eggs were hatching and it gave me a lot of hope.
The formula I am using already contains probiotics (that the yogurt would contain), but I will try the organic apple cider today. It was great to get the exact amounts that worked for you.
Flutters crop has not fully emptied for any of the night feedings, but Flitter's has.
How often did you feed yours?
I've been feeding 2 hourly in the day and 3 hourly at night. They are both getting much better at feeding now.
I'm having a few stressful events going on at once right now, but I am so determined to help these two survive. No one else was willing to try.
This is a great support site, especially when other support is hard to come by!


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## Squiggle Squab

Both of their crops are now not emptying.
Can someone please advise if I should still feed them 2 hourly even if their crop has not emptied.
They still eagerly eat.
I am confident that I have the correct consistancy and temperature of their food.
I am adding 1 drop of Apple Cider Vinegar to each of their feeds, but have only had 2 feedings with that so far.
Any suggestions?


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## Squiggle Squab

Also, they are kept at the correct temperature and are pooing normally


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## Keith C.

Here's some tips I have on my website on hand feeding.

Hand feeding. Occasionally you may have to hand feed a young pigeon to save it. We make a mash by taking wild bird seed, wheat, whole corn, oats and dog food and putting it in a coffee mill. We grind the feed into a flour, add some water and microwave it until it's slightly warm. Make sure the squab feels warm to the touch before feeding it. 









Dip it's beak into the mash and it should quickly start gobbling it down. 









You may have to dribble a little water at the tip of the beak if the crop feels hard.


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## Keith C.

(Here's the rest of it.)

The crop should be well filled out, when they are finished eating.


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## TAWhatley

Hi Squiggle,

Sounds like you are doing a very good job and you are getting great info and help from our members. I will just add that you don't need to feed through the night. If you give a first feeding at daylight and then throughout the day when the crop empties, you can quit the feedings at dusk/dark. If the crop is empty when it's getting dark, then one more feeding to carry them through the night is adequate.

The drop of Apple Cider Vinegar is fine since you are having some problems with the crop emptying.

Definitely do not feed until the crop is empty or very nearly so. If that takes longer than 2 hours, then wait for it to empty. Obviously, you can't be waiting 6, 8, or more hours for the crop to empty .. if that's the case, then you need to post here about it and see if we can come up with a way to get things moving again.

Keep up the good work, and keep us posted!

Terry


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks for that Keith.
Great photos!
My main concern at the moment is whether to still feed them when their crop has not emptied.
They are very tiny. They weigh 10 grams each (0.4 ounces).
I presume their feeds should stay regular, but could I give an electrolyte liquid instead of a feed to keep them hydrated whilst waiting for their crop to empty more?


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## Keith C.

You're welcome.
I think the electrolyte would be ok and may help.
If the food in the crop becomes to dry, the squabs have a hard time digesting it and it can become sour.
The food in the crop should feel soft and pliable.
I never thought of using apple cider vinegar before, but the acetic acid may be able to change the PH enough to help prevent sour crop.


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## TAWhatley

Not Keith here, but perhaps you could give a last feeding of the day of the electrolytes and see if the crop empties overnight. Truly, you don't need to feed throughout the night, and if you have been, then perhaps you are overloading the little ones. Just a thought.

These little bitty ones are tricky, and you have to pay very close attention as you have been to what is going on with them pretty much from hour to hour.

I'll say again, that you've done a great job thus far, so keep up the good work and continued good luck to you and the little ones.

Terry


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## Suew

Of course I will echo the experts on here because they gave me the same advice for Piji. At first I was feeding every two hours but waiting for PIJI'S crop to empty fully was actually better for him. Sometimes it would take about 4 hours. If it was taking longer than I thought that it should, I would give him a few ml of water or electrolites to hydrate him. I did stretch out his night feedings to only 2 once he was 4 days old. Now he eats every 5-6 hours during the day with his last feeding between 6:30 and 7:30. I do feed him once in the night around 1:30am when my husband comes home from work so that I can sleep in until 7:30am(making up for lost sleep). By next week the night feeding will be cut. His last feeding will be an hour or two later and his first feeding will be an hour or two earlier. It is wonderful to have this forum to learn and to relate to others who have experience or who are in the same boat. Keep up the good work!


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much Terry. I really appreciate your advise.
The one whose crop was empty has had a good feed (2 grams according to the scales!)
The one whose crop was still not empty, guzzled down the electrolyte solution with one drop of Apple Cider Vinegar (also 2 grams according to the scales).
Both are sleeping contentedly.
I will extend the time between feeds tonight and am very much looking forward to more sleep myself!


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks also Suew.
It is great to hear details of what has worked for you!
Your story has inspired me along the way!


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## Squiggle Squab

It's now been 6 hours since one of them has had a formula feed. I've given two feeds of electrolyte/water and 1 drop of Apple cider vinegar. Her crop is still not empty.

The other has had 1 feed of the water mix. Her crop is not emptying either.

Is there anything else that could be done to help their crops clear?

Should I feed them more formula or keep waiting?

I really appreciate everyones help!


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab, you really have to make sure that they are warm enough, they have to get kept at 95 degrees, if they are even a little cool, their bodies metabolism will slow down and their crop will not empty well. If you pick one up and they do not fell a little warm, they are too cool (really need to use a thermometer to check their ambient temperature, it is crucial. Also, same for their food, as mentioned, cool food will also slow their crop down. I know you say you have them under a red, hopefully infrared, light, but my feeling is that doing this is OK for older birds or in a pinch, but you are really best off doing as Suew earlier mentions, getting a heating pad (the kind without auto-shut off), set it to low with a small towel doubled over on top, this temperature will be about just right (must be LOW, not MED or HI). These things, and food that is too thick is the main cause for what you are describing in babies this young.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks for that Karyn.

They are being kept at 96 to 97 degrees.

Their feedings are between 104 to 105 degrees.

The formula is being made very runny. I would rather they be under nourished for a short time than it be too thick.

I am worried that if this is a candida infection that is causing their crop not to empty the glucose in the electrolyte mix will not be helping. It would feed the yeast wouldn't it?

It's morning here now and I have extended their feeds to 4 hours between feeds for the last two feeds (still not empty crops between feeds though).

Now it has been almost 5 hours and their crops are still not empty.

I am so worried about not feeding them and them dying on me. Other literature I read had stated that if you don't feed them every 2 hours, they will become too weak and die.

But perhaps I should be more concerned about their crops not emptying.

I will give them a drink of water with a drop of Apple cider vinegar and a bit of probiotics and see if I can hold off on the formula feed a bit longer now that it is daylight and I can watch them more closely.

Any further suggestions would be very much appreciated.


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## Msfreebird

My babies get fed on an average of 5-6 hours apart, even then, there is still a tiny bit of food left in their crops.
Have NEVER heard the "every 2 hour thing"


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## Squiggle Squab

These two are only 2 and 3 days old. The two hour feedings were recommended for the first week of life.

They just excitedly drank their water.

My daughter turns 8 today, so I'd better ignore these two momentarily and prepare her birthday breakfast!


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## Dobato

Well, I would take things down a couple of degrees both on the food and their ambient temperature. If I remember right, 93-95 degrees is what I recall as being the recommended ambient temperature and 103 - 104 degrees for their feeding, should not be a big deal, but small things can make a difference at this age. After the crop empties you can add 1 drop of apple cider vinegar to 10mL of water (2 teaspoons) and see if this help with their crop issues. You can the add 1 drop to every 10mL of formula (2 teaspoons) as well. Still a bit unsure with the infrared, I would feel a bit better if you had them on a heating pad.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks Karyn.

I would also like a heating pad for them. I've found it difficult to find one here that is suitable for birds. I'll try looking again tomorrow (Monday).

Their crops are looking 1/3 to 1/2 full now. I'll wait a little longer before feeding.

I've lowered their temp to 95.


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab said:


> Thanks Karyn.
> 
> I would also like a heating pad for them. I've found it difficult to find one here that is suitable for birds. I'll try looking again tomorrow (Monday).
> 
> Their crops are looking 1/3 to 1/2 full now. I'll wait a little longer before feeding.
> 
> I've lowered their temp to 95.


Not sure where you are at, but Walmart sells them, get their least expensive model for people (as it has no auto-shut off) and most drug stores have them as well, again no auto-shut off.

I would let their crop empty to about 1/4 and then give them a bit of the ACV water as I described before, you could then VERY, very, gently massage their crop area, using your forefinger and thumb, so the water and what is left in there mixes, hold head up and extend the neck a bit while you are doing this, it will only take a second. Let crop empty then feed again.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

They're moving and cheaping more and generally looking better.

I think I was overfeeding them and keeping them too warm, so they didn't move much, which I'm guessing may have made the crop slower to empty.

Their crop is already beginning to empty after just over an hour after their feed.

I'm feeling very relieved.

Thanks everyone so much for the support.

I'm sure I'll write back with more questions soon, or just an update if all's well!


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab said:


> They're moving and cheaping more and generally looking better.
> 
> I think I was overfeeding them and keeping them too warm, so they didn't move much, which I'm guessing may have made the crop slower to empty.
> 
> Their crop is already beginning to empty after just over an hour after their feed.
> 
> I'm feeling very relieved.
> 
> Thanks everyone so much for the support.
> 
> I'm sure I'll write back with more questions soon, or just an update if all's well!



Good to hear, yes I think they were a little too warm, look into the pad and don't forget a drop of ACV into 10mL Kaytee (2 teaspoons of formula).

Karyn


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## Noisy_minor

Hey there, I havnt posted on here for awhile but i have been lurking  Just wondering where abouts in Australia you are? I may be able to help with the heat pad issue. 

good luck with your piji's. its such a tiring job hand feeding, but the result at the end is more than worth it.


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## Squiggle Squab

I'm on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland.

Heat pads for reptiles and cats/dogs seem easy to come by, but I can't find any that you can adjust the temperature on, which would be ideal as the birds grow and need less heat.

If you know of somewhere to get one I'm all ears


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## Noisy_minor

You can buy dimmers which lower the wattage of the heat mat. www.herptrader.com is a cool reptile website i use every now and then for my snakes. Ive handraised alot of baby birds including cockateils, budgies, lorikeets, noisyminors etc. the heat pad i use cannot be turned down. so i keep the baby inside a cardboard box, sitting on a towl, on top of a cake tray. this provides the ideal heat for me, and as they dont need it anymore i just slide the heat mat further away, so the heat is still there as they need it but they can move away from it if they please. Where did you find your babys were they "ferals" or did something happen to there parents.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks for that info.

A friend of mine, who's a "spotter catcher" (finds and relocates wildlife before land is cleared), found the two eggs in a nest in a tree that was being cut down.

Nobody else wanted to take the eggs. They were experienced enough to know how much hard work it is and said there was only a very slim chance they would survive being raised by hand.

I had just hatched a batch of chickens in my incubator, so it was all ready to go and I was keen to give the little eggs a chance. I must admit I really didn't know what I was in for, but I also didn't expect them to hatch after the transition from nest to incubator.

When I candled the eggs after a few days and discovered I had two live squabs growing, I quickly began doing squab raising research. I still could not find someone with experience willing to take them on.

I am appreciating this wonderful and insightful, yet very exhausing experience. I am definately attached though and am often worried I'm going to loose them. They are just so tiny.

Again, their crops did not empty this afternoon, so their last feed was the water mix.

So today their formula feeds were only at 2.30am, 10.30am and 1.45pm, with the water mix at 7.30am and 5.30pm.

They drink about 1 - 1.5mls to fill their crop.

Their crop still feels 1/2 full now. I'm impatiently waiting to feed them again.

It worries me that they are getting so little formula, but I also realize that it is not helpful to keep feeding them before their crop empties.

Any thoughts about how much they really need to be getting in order to survive would be helpful, keeping in mind how little they are and how little they drink at a time.

They did seem very energetic and healthy looking after their mid-morning feed when they had had a long break from feeds and their crops were close to empty when fed.

I've had a big day (with my daughters b'day) and am exhausted!

I still can't seem to believe that they'll be OK without feeds at night, especially when they've had so little during the day.

Any thoughts?


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## Msfreebird

Birds don't feed their young a during the night, so you don't need to. If you give them a good feeding of formula around 8 or 9 pm, they will be set for the night. By 5:30 or 6 am they will have empty crops and be peeping and "popping" looking to be fed.
I've never heard of feeding water to babies (along with 2 hour feedings). My 1-5 day olds never get fed every 2 hours. You want them to move (pop up and down) somewhat. That movement helps move the food along.
The water they get is in the formula, so I would put the drop of ACV in the formula. If anything, make the formula _thinner_.
I don't know if you missed what Dobato wrote earlier.....you can find HUMAN heating pads at any drugstore. The least expensive one's do not have an auto shut off, and set it on LOW, and cover with a towel. Should be perfect temperature.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much for that info. I appreciate so much all the experienced help I'm getting!

OK. I've just fed them (it's 10pm here) and they both drank well, so I'll see how they go now until dawn. I think I won't be able to help waking up just to check them in the night for this first night, but it sure will make my life a lot easier if in future I don't have to wake every 2 hours all night!

Maybe this will solve their crop emptying problems. Fingers crossed.

Thanks again


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## Squiggle Squab

They're not doing too well.

I've fed them (with further diluted formula) at 6am (when they seemed alert, peeping a little and doing little dances, eyes opening a little too!), 10am and 2pm (when their crops were still at least 1/3 full, but I thought I shouldn't leave it longer and they still ate with vigour).

They have been getting progressively less alert.

At 6pm, their crops still seemed about 1/2 full, so I made really dilute formula, but they weren't interested in eating, just sleeping. Still pooing on occasion.

It is now 7pm and their crops still feel half full and are much doughier than before. They are beginning to peep a little.

It doesn't sound good does it?

Any suggestions very welcome.

Feeling very sad and helpless!


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## Msfreebird

Do you have these little one's on a heating pad yet?
I try to duplicate nature with babies. I keep them on a heating pad (low), covered with a "ruffled" towel made into a "nest", with a small floppy stuffed animal that they can crawl under if they want to. I keep a light over them during the day, and shut it off at night.
I don't think a heat lamp over them all the time is good.
I feed them every 6 hours starting at 6am, noon, 6pm, then I will attempt to give them a little more around 9pm to get them thru the night.
Your still feeding every 4 hours, with food still in their crops. I don't think your giving them time to "feel hungry". They get active when they start to feel hungry.
And they need to be on a heating pad. That warmth helps them digest.
The formula should be "firm" runny. If its too dilute, they won't get enough nourishment. There is no nourishment in water, they need the vitamins that is in the formula.


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## Squiggle Squab

I can't thank you enough. Your advise has been invaluable and I will eagerly follow it!

I completely agree that I have been feeding them too often and not allowing them to get hungry (I made the same mistake as a first time mum 11 years ago. My natural instinct seems to be "if in doubt, feed"). Shortly after my last post, they began peeping and popping and when I fed them, they drank more than usual (about 2mls). Since then, they have been peeping and dancing around, looking healthy and happy.

I will thicken their feed slightly next time, as it was still very much like water this time.

My main insistance on feeding them so frequently came from reading an old post on this site...
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/archive/index.php/t-5331.html
...which stated "For the first 24 hours 1ml at each feeding, every 2 hours including during the night. If you miss feedings the bird will become weak very quickly."

Also, my local wildlife rescue person said they needed feeding every hour (24 hours). I think she was trying to discourage me from continuing to incubate the eggs and when I insisted that I wanted to give them a chance, she refused to give further assistance.

The people that make the formula that I am using also said they needed feeding every 2 hours for a week. I will give them my feedback on what has worked (and not) for these hatchlings.

I have not yet found a heat pad. They seem to be hard to find in my area. I have found one on-line, which is not cheap, but I will order it if I have no further luck tomorrow.

They have now settled to sleep.
I am so relieved!


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## Noisy_minor

Have a look in your local pet shops. if you have a pet barn near you there great, and there prices are usually quite good. good luck and all, glad things are going well. make sure you post heaps of pics hehehe.


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## Squiggle Squab

All going very well this morning!

Peeping dancing happy squabs!

Will post photos later.


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## Msfreebird

Squiggle Squab said:


> All going very well this morning!
> 
> Peeping dancing happy squabs!
> 
> Will post photos later.


That's good to hear 
As for a heating pad........Do you have Pharmacy or drug stores (Rite Aid, CVS, etc) or Walmart in Australia? That's where you'll find one. Just make sure it doe's NOT have an "auto shut off"


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab said:


> All going very well this morning!
> 
> Peeping dancing happy squabs!
> 
> Will post photos later.


Yes, good to hear indeed!

Always good when they are peeping, dancing, and happy squabs!

Yes, do make some calls to all the drug stores in your area to see if you can locate a heating pad with no "auto-shut off"

Good job,

Karyn


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## conditionfreak

Sometimes the crop can become compacted, and the food will not go away on its own. In other words, it will not be digested and the baby will die from starvation even though the crop is full.

One method to deal with this, is to use an eyedropper and give the baby a few drops of mineral oil, and gently massage the crop to help break it up and become easier to digest.

Just like in puppies (through their milk), the parent birds give certain bacteria to the baby when they feed it, and this bacteria is necessary to be in the babies crop to help break down the food. As baby birds do not use grit for breakdown yet.

If you want to use the internet to do more research on how to keep these little ones alive, do searches on hand feeding or hand rearing baby parrots. It is the same process and there is a lot more info on them than baby pigeons.

Pet shops do sell "Exacta" baby bird hand feeding powder. It works great, but it must be mixed with water correctly (according to the directions and the age of the babies), and warmed (heated) to the correct temperature. About 99 degrees or so will do. Not over 101 and not under 92 works best for me. It gets cold quickly though, from stirring or just sitting there. Sometimes you have to keep reheating it, depending on how many babies you are hand feeding or how quickly you feed. With baby birds, you can just squirt the formula into the mouth at a fairly quick pace, using an eyedropper. No need to do it slowly, as doing it slowly lets the formula cool and not so good for the babies.

It is a difficult but not impossible process, to hand rear baby birds that have not received the crop bacteria from their parents. But do not give up. It can be done. The crop compaction is a serious problem and has to be dealt with immediately.


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## Squiggle Squab

The happy squabs with feathers just beginning to grow on wings!


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## Squiggle Squab

Should the crop feel doughy when near empty?


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab said:


> Should the crop feel doughy when near empty?


Squiggle Squab, yes it can feel a bit doughy. Perhaps it is the flash, but their skin looks a bit tight and shiny, which could be an indication of dehydration, I would make sure at least one of their feedings through the day is fairly loose this will help up their fluid intake. Probably nothing, but something that caught my eye, remember 1 single drop of ACV in every 10mL of formula as well.

The infrared could also be playing a part, I wouldn't mind seeing you getting a spray water bottle, and setting it to the very lightest mist, and misting these guys when their skin looks tight and shiny. Not to wet them in any way just a very light/fine mist.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks Karyn. I will do.

Now I'm worried again!!!

One now has a slight crackle noise on every in-breath and is breathing about double as fast as the other. This was the first to hatch, who I had trouble feeding to begin with and I was always worried that it may have breathed in some of it's first feed (electrolyte/water). I had read that this can happen and usually leads to a lung infection.

What can I do???

Cara


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## Dobato

Will need antibiotics ASAP. Do you have any, can you get any, is there a vet that will help/or take him to? Gently open mouth and make sure, from some dehydration, there is not phlegm in mouth, over windpipe.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks for the quick reply, Karyn.

I can't see anything in the mouth. I don't have any antibiotics unfortunately. It's 10.30pm here, so I'll contact my vet first thing in the morning.

I hope that's soon enough!


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## Dobato

Call family and friends, an antibiotic for them, their children or their pets may do the trick. If not, see what you can arrange with a vet in the morning.

Running out, will check in from the road.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

No luck.
I'll have to wait until the morning


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## Squiggle Squab

Squab No 1, Flitter, is still with us, however she refused her feed last night. She was very keen for a feed this morning, but her crop was still 1/3 full and very doughy. I diluted her feed further and she drank, having to stop regularly to breathe.

I will phone the vet soon when they open.

Since I'm pretty sure he will know very little about pigeons (no vets around here knew much about chickens when I needed help with a sick chook once)...

Does anyone have any suggestions about type of antibiotic that would be best or doesn't it really matter?

Should I treat both squabs or just the one effected?

Whilst I'm waiting for the vet to open, another concern...

I still don't think either of their crops are fully emptying. Yesterday I fed them 6 hourly. Their crops feel like the consistancy of their food (very watery) after a feed, but they progressively become more doughy as they empty. It feels like they mainly empty the water content of the feed.

I have never tried the apple sauce added to the feed. Would this be a good idea?
They generally drink about 3 - 4mls now. How much apple sauce should I add to their formula?

I'll update with vet news soon.


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## Squiggle Squab

BTW I got my local pet shop to order in the heat mat I wanted. It should be in today or tomorrow. I'll mist them in the meantime as suggested, Karyn.


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## Dobato

Well, at this neo-natal age it rules out a number of drugs, but I would suggest you go with Clavamox (Amoxicillin/Clavulanate). It works well for respiratory tract infections and does not have some of the cautions associated with it, a few other good drugs do about giving them young birds. Tell your vet 125mg/kg BID and he'll know what to make up.

What is wrong with this little guy is not really contagious, so no need to treat all. You could try a bit of probiotics and a bit of apple sauce (1/2 mL to 3-4 mL formula) and see how that goes. Glad you are getting the heating pad.

God luck at the vets,

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much Karyn.
I'm going to the vet shortly and he said he'll try to do some pigeon research before I get there!
It'll be great to take your info to him


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## Squiggle Squab

Back from vet with very expensive ($43) antibiotics (Clavulox).
He said he thinks she's still looking strong and healthy, so unless it's pneumonia, she's in with a good chance!
Fingers crossed!!


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## Jay3

Maybe the crop being slow is because you are just feeding them too much at once. Maybe you could cut back a little on the amount, and give half applesauce in one of the feedings each day.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks for that suggestion.
I had thought I should feed them as much as they want to drink in one go, but perhaps they are over indulging!
I'll try and limit it and see if that helps.


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## Jay3

Squiggle Squab said:


> Thanks for that suggestion.
> I had thought I should feed them as much as they want to drink in one go, but perhaps they are over indulging!
> I'll try and limit it and see if that helps.


They can be full, and well still want more. I really think you are feeding them too much. Feed them less, try the applesause, and I bet you stop having the slow crop problems. Try it.


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## loftkeeper

I Think The Birds Were Getting To Hot You Said You Had Them Under A Red Heat Lamp They Unlike Chicks Can Not Move Away When They Get To Hot They Are Needing More Water As They Become Older You Can Put There Beaks In Water And Let Them Drink After Feeding Them Also When They Are Less Than A Week Old I Put Them In A Incubator In A Bowl With Rag I Have A Cabinet Incubator So Air Is Not A Problem With A Small One You Might Have To Leave It Open A Little For Air Have Raised And Saved Many This Way But Each Case Is Different Another Way Put Them Close To A Heat Source Like Water Heater If They Are Older Has Always What Works For Me Might Not For Another Trail And Error And Thinking Outside The Box But Common Sense Must Be Used If It Does Not Seem Right Change


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## Dobato

Squiggle Squab said:


> Back from vet with very expensive ($43) antibiotics (Clavulox).
> He said he thinks she's still looking strong and healthy, so unless it's pneumonia, she's in with a good chance!
> Fingers crossed!!


Squiggle Squab, I am really quite glad you got right on top of this and got this little guy to the vet for some meds. If an infection was/is developing, they can go down hill real quick once it takes hold.

Not sure how you have things set up, with the infrared, but if the light is directly on them, perhaps you could get a piece of cardboard, fold it and make a tent for them, so they are still warm, but under a tent so the light is not always directly on them.

Apple sauce, probiotics, ACV, keeping a good eye on food temperature and watching feeding amounts and thickness, should help things.

Karyn


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## sreeshs

Squiggle Squab said:


> Thanks Karyn. I will do.
> 
> Now I'm worried again!!!
> 
> One now has a slight crackle noise on every in-breath and is breathing about double as fast as the other. This was the first to hatch, who I had trouble feeding to begin with and I was always worried that it may have breathed in some of it's first feed (electrolyte/water). I had read that this can happen and usually leads to a lung infection.
> 
> What can I do???
> 
> Cara


The panting can be because of excessive heat and lack of humidity. You can also keep a bowl with water near them. The thing may be still with the infrared heater, as you have ordered the heating pad, I think the change should do the trick.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much everyone!

They are doing really really well today. The antibiotics have kicked in. There is no more rattle in the breathing and it has returned to a normal speed. Yay!

The apple sauce seemed to get things moving more quickly from their crops.

I think I was overfeeding them at each feed. I am now following the Kaytee exact suggestion of 10%-12% of body weight at each feed. They are much more active now.

We just did a photo shoot. My children were glad to be allowed to have a quick hold!

I have always had a bowl of water near by that the lamp also shines on. See photo below. Creating a "tent" didn't work, as it was then not warm enough for them. Hopefully the heat mat will arrive today (tomorrow at latest). I used a hot water bottle (at the correct temp) to take them to the vet and they really seemed to love it, so I'm sure they will appreciate the heat mat!

The one that's on antibiotics, Flitter, hatched first and was not as robust as the other from the beginning. She still seems to have splayed legs, whereas the other, Flutter, is keeping her legs under her most of the time now. I am trying to put her legs underneath her, but usually she just pops them out again very shortly. I have them on a teatowel, so it isn't slippery. Should I be concerned about this or is it still usual at this age?

Their eyes are opening and feathers growing quickly now! They now weigh 20 grams each!


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## Dobato

Great photos! You are doing a great job! Like I said, I am glad you got on top of things so fast. Also glad the feedings are getting sorted out. Keep us updated.

Karyn


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## Msfreebird

OMG!!! They are adorable! Glad to hear their doing better. Keep up the good work


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## Noisy_minor

Wow, you are doing an amazing job, they are getting so big. We currently have a pair of crested pigeons nesting about 8 ft off the ground, in a golden cane palm. Ive been checking on them everyday, and then jumping online to follow your posts.  

Keep up the good work.
Phil.


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## Jay3

They are adorable. Both sets of kids. LOL.
I'm glad the crop is doing better, but if that leg continues to remain out to the side like that, then you should correct it before it gets bad.I know you have them on a towel, but they should still have some nesting material under them. Could you put something like that under them?


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## Squiggle Squab

Jay3 said:


> They are adorable. Both sets of kids. LOL.
> I'm glad the crop is doing better, but if that leg continues to remain out to the side like that, then you should correct it before it gets bad.I know you have them on a towel, but they should still have some nesting material under them. Could you put something like that under them?


What kind of nesting material would you suggest?

The legs are getting worse rather than better over the last day or two. Or perhaps it's more noticable to me now that they are more active. When they reach up excitedly to be fed, the one with the dodgy legs ends up falling back into the splits. I saw a band-aid splint on another thread. I'll try that unless anyone has any other suggestions.


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks Phil,

I'd love to hear how your crested pigeons go too!


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## Squiggle Squab

Squabs are happily on their new heating mat! 

I've added photos to my album if you're interested.


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## Noisy_minor

I havnt seen them yet, I know they have hatched. We get quite a few birds nesting on our little block, I think they have realised our dog has no interest in birds, and she does a good job at keeping the cats out. I cannot belive you have done all this from 2 eggs you saved, and I had no idea that people went in and saved native animals before land was cleared. I have no pigeons of my own YET but im sure when im ment to become a pigeons pet, one will jump out of its nest and say, BOOM you mine sucker.


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## spirit wings

They sure do look small for a baby pigeons... are you sure they are not wild morning doves?.. here is a pic of two morning dove babies.


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## Noisy_minor

crested pigeons are very small in general. they are a commen australian nativem which have adapted really well to life in the suburbs. they are also called crested doves by some peoplen so i am unsure of there correct naming.


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## Jay3

Squiggle Squab said:


> What kind of nesting material would you suggest?
> 
> The legs are getting worse rather than better over the last day or two. Or perhaps it's more noticable to me now that they are more active. When they reach up excitedly to be fed, the one with the dodgy legs ends up falling back into the splits. I saw a band-aid splint on another thread. I'll try that unless anyone has any other suggestions.


Here are some links to fixing splayed leg. The sooner you fix the problem, the better the legs will respond to treatment.


SPLAYED LEG TREATMENTS
http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/193589827zTYswz
_____________________________________________
http://www.parrotparrot.com/lovebirds/breeding-lovebirds/fixing-splay-legs/
------------------------------------------
http://www.peafowl.org/ARTICLES/1/
------------------------------------------
http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/193589827zTYswz
------------------------------------------
Have to scroll down a bit for the splayed leg part:

http://www.thecozynest.com/pictures.htm
------------------------------------------


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## spirit wings

Noisy_minor said:


> crested pigeons are very small in general. they are a commen australian nativem which have adapted really well to life in the suburbs. they are also called crested doves by some peoplen so i am unsure of there correct naming.


oh, I see, I did not pay attention she was downunder...


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much for the "splayed leg" info Jay3.
I have taped her legs, band-aid style, but used a tape for sensitive skin, as I think a normal band-aid might hurt her when removed. She doesn't seem to like it being on, as it's awkward for her to move, but I don't think it's hurting her, just annoying.

I am feeding them 4 hourly now, since I have reduced the amout I feed them, their crops are pretty much empty by 4 hours and they peep for more. The peep for more straight after I feed them too, but I guess they're getting used to eating a reasonable amount instead of over eating!

So my feeding routine is now...
6.30am, 10.30am, 2.30pm, 6.30pm, 10.30pm.
Flitter gets her antibiotics at the 6.30am and pm feeds.
They both get apple sauce with their 6.30pm feed and extra probiotics with their 10.30pm feed.
I am still adding the ACV to each feed.

Should I keep up the ACV and apple sauce now that their crop emptying problems are over?

I still couldn't help waking a few times to check their new heating pad last night, but now that I am confident it is all working fine, I am lookinh forward to a good night's sleep tonight 

They are definately crested pigeons (Ocyphaps Lophotes), but I see the likeness to the Morning Dove babies. They'll look different soon enough!


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## Msfreebird

Glad to see they are doing better and settling into a routine  makes it soooo much easier ...IF raising babies could be easy.  It's a stressful job and you've done great. Hope you get a good nights sleep


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## Jay3

I would stop the ACV and applesauce now. If it seems to slow a bit, try the applesauce. 

As far as being uncomfortable for the baby with the legs taped, you could try putting him in a container, like a deep enough bowl, where his legs will hang down, or at least have some room before they touch the bottom of the bowl. And have a towel in the bottom of the dish. You can make like a donut with a hand towel or foam rubber, to go around him, to hold him in his little nest. Sometimes this works, as his legs aren't being squashed under him.


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## loftkeeper

try this find rubber o rings for faucets and things like thay find two that will fit like bands on pigeons then a peice string and pull it tight till the legs look right


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## Jay3

Here is a picture of a baby with a splay. Taped up with vet wrap.









And here is a little foam rubber nest he was kept in.









The bottom was built up with tissue I think, to make it soft.









Can you post a picture of the legs taped up?


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks again everyone!  I'm sure I couldn't have raised these beautiful squabs if it hadn't been for the experienced help from all the generous people on this site.

Below are the pictures of Flitter's taped legs, her stance with taped legs and their new abode on the heating mat. They snuggle into the folds of the cloth to get warm after feeding and then come out to the more open area to peep, flap and preen themselves.

I have now stopped the ACV and apple sauce (as suggested, thanks Jay3) and their crops seem to be doing well.

Flitter has diarrhea and isn't eating quite as much as before (but still a reasonable amount) and with less vigor. I checked for side effects of the antibiotic she is having and the most common side effects are diarrhea, nausea and loss of appetite, so I guess it's to be expected. I will keep a close eye on her. I may also check with the vet that she definately needs to continue for the full 10 days (recommended for refractory respiratory infections), rather than 5-10 days for routine cases, since she responded to it so quickly.

You're right Waynette, routine sure does help. I've decided to move them out of my bedroom today, since I otherwise can't help checking on them several times in the night. They are always fine, so I think I'll resist the temptation to continually check them if they are a distance away!

Enjoy the photos. They're getting so much bigger and they're even starting to grow their crest feathers! So sweet!


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## Jay3

The splayed leg could be from a calcium deficiency. They may need calcium. Remember that you have to check to make sure that the wrap isn't cutting off the circulation to the legs and feet every day. If that tape sticks, you could put gauze around the leg before taping. Vet tape works well for this, as it doesn't stick to the legs. Let us know how it goes.


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## Jay3

You could also call Dr. Colin Walker. He's a very famous veterinarian who works with pigeons, and he's in Australia. I'm sure he'd be happy to answer your questions and concerns. Here is his info. 

Melbourne Veterinary Clinic
Colin Walker, DVM
1 George St.Scoresby,
Victoria 3179, Australia
+61 3 9764 9000


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## Squiggle Squab

Thanks so much Jay3.
There is calcium in their formula and since it's only a problem for one of the pigeons, I presume it's an unlikely cause on it's own. But I'm sure the calcium will help.
Thanks so much for the contact details for Dr. Colin Walker. I haven't found anyone with any expertise (other than on this site!!!) willing to help so far, so I'm keen to give him a call.
Both squabs are growing fast, which I'm sure must be a good sign. 
I've started taking note of their daily weight today.


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## Jay3

Well you're doing a good job with them, and they are precious. Let us know how his legs are doing. They are usually pretty easy to straighten when you catch it early.


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## Msfreebird

ALL of the babies I raised went though a phase (just before they started to get up and walk), where they "looked" like their legs were starting to splay.I don't think they were splayed.....their little bodies were getting so round, I think it was their way of positioning their legs for balance.
This is what I did- *I always kept their bedding towel "ruffled up" with a "bowl type center to help keep their legs under them.
*When I fed them, I would use my fingers on my left hand to hold their legs together, and help them balance. Holding the bottle a little higher up to encourage them to stand and stretch for it. This helped strengthen their legs and they never splayed.
I've never had legs so badly splayed that they had to be wrapped.
They are ADORABLE!!!


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## Jay3

Waynette, I know what you mean, but they don't keep them that way all the time. But this one keeps them that way, and can't seem to keep them together, and his toes are also curling. The toes should be flat.

Sqiggle Squab, have his toes always curled like that? I notice that they are also curled under in the earlier picture.


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## Squiggle Squab

I took the tape off Flitter's legs today and they are HEAPS better. Her toes were always curled, but they became straight shortly after I taped the legs. I will observe her more closely in the morning to see if she needs them taped for longer, but at the moment it is just amazing the improvement! She was previously looking like she was doing the splits, especially with one leg, which she was never able to bring under her. I will try to find the time to post more photos tomorrow. They are growing so quickly!


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## Jay3

Thanks for the update. Yes, pics would be nice.


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## Squiggle Squab

*All going so well!!*

I am very pleased to report that Flitter and Flutter are well and happy and I am too, now that I am getting a good chunk of uninterupted sleep at night!

They are now 2 weeks old and are putting on about 5 grams every day!! They now weigh 65 grams (compared to 10 grams a couple of days after hatching).

They are looking like little birds now and are walking around, stretching and flapping their wings and feeding with ease.

Below is a photo of Flitter when the tape was first removed from her splayed legs, showing great improvement, but still not perfect.

However, she has continued to improve and strengthen and now she is great, as seen in the next photo (on the right).

Finally, a photo of Flutter, showing all his new feathers.

Phew! A sigh of relief. I know the journey is certainly not over and I'm sure they will present with many more challenges for me to learn from, but I am so, SO happy they have made it this far and are seeming to be very happy and healthy squabs. It was well worth the effort! 

THANK YOU SO MUCH for all the wisdom, time and kindness that so many people on this site have generously shared with me!!

I will update again in a while, or before hand if I need more assistance.


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## Jay3

Just adorable. Thanks for the update. If that leg still goes out a bit, I would keep it taped a bit longer. They can be made perfectly straight. Beautiful little bird.


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## TAWhatley

Thanks for the photos and the good news update! Absolutely darling little birds! You've done a very fine job in caring for them!

Terry


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## Msfreebird

They are absolutely beautiful! You did a great job!! 
LOVE that little crest


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## Dobato

Yes, let me say as well that you really have done a superb job with these darlings.

Karyn


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## Squiggle Squab

*Wild and free Crested Pigeon update!*

My profuse apologies for not giving an update sooner!

The two crested pigeons did brilliantly!
After lots of flying practise in the house and 3 weeks in a cage on the verandah (when not flying in the house), they were released on 14th November when they were 7 weeks old.

Flutter (always the one with attitude and confidence) flew immediately to the top of every tall tree before joining Flitter on the verandah again. Within 3 hours, Flutter had flown far from sight and never returned to the verandah again.

Flitter was more timid with her freedom. She stayed on the verandah or very close to it and liked me to stay nearby. She gradually lengthened her time away until she finally left for good on 30th November.

I had seen Crested pigeons near the house (as we often do) many times and had wondered if it could be them, presuming I wouldn't recognize one Crested Pigeon from another. But just 3 days ago I saw both Flitter and Flutter together on our road (a tiny dirt road, rarely a car!). I couldn't believe how easily recognizable they were! It had been more than 2 months since I had seen them.

I am absolutely certain it was the two of them. They both looked very healthy. They seemed a little curious, but didn't let me get too close. It was SO SO great to see that they have done so well.

So a BIG thank you once again to all the generous people on this site who have helped to give these beautiful Crested Pigeons a wonderful life!

I have added a new album if you'd like to see more photos of them...

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/album.php?albumid=1525


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## Jaye

Congrats...you deserve it, and they are very LUCKY to have found a friend like you.

Indeed, nothing beats the feeling of seeing pals you helped back out there living their Feral lives !!!!


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## Dobato

Thanks so much for the update, you really did a wonderful job raising these little guys and giving them a real chance at living out their lives in the wild as nature intended. Well done!

Karyn


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## Spazzy

Hi...I adopted 2 pigeon eggs today and one of them is hatching!!! What did you feed yours right after they hatched? everyone keeps speaking of a formula but not what the formula is made of...please help if you can?
Spazzy.


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## Msfreebird

Spazzy said:


> Hi...I adopted 2 pigeon eggs today and one of them is hatching!!! What did you feed yours right after they hatched? everyone keeps speaking of a formula but not what the formula is made of...please help if you can?
> Spazzy.


Hi Spazzy,
First off....You need to start your own thread about this. This thread is over a year old. (Go to 'General' discussions, in the upper right hand corner is 'forum tools', click on it, then click 'start a new thread')
Once you do that I have plenty of questions for you. In the meantime, here's some feeding instructions....
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/i...6756.html?highlight=bottle+feeding#post615941


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## Squiggle Squab

Hi Spazzy,
I fed them Neocare Bird Handraising Formula by Vetafarm. They will not need feeding for the first 24hrs as they will have eaten their yolk. If you read this thread from the start, you will find some useful information and links that other members posted. Raising the two Crested Pigeons was one of the most challenging things I've done in my life (more so than my own children as newborns and they weren't easy!). I only managed an hour of sleep here and there in the first two weeks after they hatched and they continued to be full time work for several weeks. It was very rewarding in the end and thankfully a happy ending, but if you have the option of passing them over to an experienced carer, that would be my advice! There's a wealth of information and knowledgeable experience on this site if you need it. The help I received here definitely saved their lives!
Good luck!


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## Shahbaz khan

*Crop not empty overnight*

Hey i have a pigeon squab of 25 days.he knows to eat food.i gave him rice soaked in water and he ate all and feeded him soaked wheat at 08:00pm and cheaked the crop 08:00am but the crop was not empty.Please help me what should i do?


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## Jay3

Shahbaz khan said:


> Hey i have a pigeon squab of 25 days.he knows to eat food.i gave him rice soaked in water and he ate all and feeded him soaked wheat at 08:00pm and cheaked the crop 08:00am but the crop was not empty.Please help me what should i do?




If you start a new thread on this, you will get more attention and replies. I'll PM you how to do that.


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## irishgirl247

That looks just like my little Tesla  Does anyone know if I should start adding anything to his formula as he grows? I was thinking seed type stuff.


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