# What Do You Consider A Winner?



## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I see ppl selling birds or just in general describing a bird as "This bird has breed many/multiple winners including 1st place" or "This bird has had many/multiple wins including 1st place" My question for everybody is what do you consider a winner? I want to know so I know what ppl are talking about when they talk about a winner. So to you what does it mean when you say a bird is a winner. Does it mean the bird actually won the race, the bird won a diploma, or the bird was clocked in a money position or won money in the race.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I see ppl selling birds or just in general describing a bird as "This bird has breed many/multiple winners including 1st place" or "This bird has had many/multiple wins including 1st place" My question for everybody is what do you consider a winner? I want to know so I know what ppl are talking about when they talk about a winner. So to you what does it mean when you say a bird is a winner. Does it mean the bird actually won the race, the bird won a diploma, or the bird was clocked in a money position or won money in the race.


to me it means 1st Place or at least a bird that arrived with the 1st Place winners such as on a one loft race if they get 20 on a drop as far as i am concerned they are all winners

but somewhere along the line pigeon sellers started applying the term 'winner' to almost anything that was clocked in a race. in any other aspect of life i've never heard the term winner applied to a position like 49th but in pigeon racing some of these advertisers will call a bird that finished 49th (and not on the drop with 1st Place) a winner and that to me is wrong.

how many times have you seen a pedigree that says "bred many winners" i always wonder how many is "many" and what do they consider winners. shouldn't be too hard to list specific results or count actual numbers but when those are not there they resort to the tried and true "bred many winners" line

unfortunately so many of these sellers are looking for slick ways to mislead people that "bred many winners" could mean that the bird bred 4 diplomas. it's sad really but that's what things like the national database and national awards are for. so many people would be surprised that these guys with all these "winners" can't even make the top-10% or win 1st place in a club race


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

I have begun to look at pedigrees and if there are no race records, I shy away. That is specific race records. 
As for a winner it is the bird that won 1st in the race. The others on the drop should be classified as such "Equal 1st 2nd in the clock" etc. 
Tell the milage and how many birds in the race. Funny you will even see great pigeons from Belg and NL with wins against small number of birds. These are their local results. Doubling is when they win local, prov, Nat etc. The post 1st for each level. 
I like seeing Place, Milage, #birds, #fanciers, YPM. Each has meaning. 
I also like seeing what a bird did or bred in the top 10%. That is where the points are. A bird that wins against 300 birds where there were only two fanciers is not that impressive. A bird that wins 1st against 300 birds with 20 fanciers is much better. That is why information is good. 
You win a race call it a winner, but you better have facts to let us know the meat of the win. One reason I post the actual race results on my page. Shows all the relevant facts.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Both misleading race results and pedigrees annoy me. Ganus has great birds, but his pedigrees are the worst. He changes birds names, does not give names of breeders, and generalizes the lineage. If you have a GFL pedigree do a band search on the birds in the pedigree, you will find the names do not match many of the band numbers. Birds down from famous birds are given the names of the famous birds like it was a family name. Ie. Red Fox in one of my pedigrees. Either he renamed the bird or just used that as a general term to describe a daughter of the Red Fox. Misleading. I hate to go to the internet to find out race results and breeders of World Champions. It bugs.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> Both misleading race results and pedigrees annoy me. Ganus has great birds, but his pedigrees are the worst. He changes birds names, does not give names of breeders, and generalizes the lineage. If you have a GFL pedigree do a band search on the birds in the pedigree, you will find the names do not match many of the band numbers. Birds down from famous birds are given the names of the famous birds like it was a family name. Ie. Red Fox in one of my pedigrees. Either he renamed the bird or just used that as a general term to describe a daughter of the Red Fox. Misleading. I hate to go to the internet to find out race results and breeders of World Champions. It bugs.


Ganus pedigrees are very bad and often misleading. consider he uses a whole page there sure is a lot of missing information. would it kill the guy to invest in a good pedigree program like everyone else? i guess though when you have GFL bands a pedigree that always says "Foundation Quality!" and "Super Couple!" is good enough

*The thing that bugs me the most about pedigrees lately is the lack of colors listed.* Look around on the various pedigrees on the auctions and notice how few of them list the color of the birds for anything other than the bird you are buying and maybe at best the parents.

i think this is probably being done deliberately as a colors of ancestors are one way to spot a fraudulent or mistaken pedigree. two blue bars cannot produce a blue check and a red hen mated to a blue cock cannot produce a blue cock or a blue hen but i've seen this in pedigrees before so i think some of the dishonest sellers just figured to get around this they would stop showing colors in the pedigree. of course there are a few guys that do show all of the colors and that is one way I think to at least find a breeder that is not trying to hide anything


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

A bird that has not generated results or bred results should be shied away from. Bred for stock is ok if you can show results from this stocking of the bird. If they stock a bird I wan to know why. Sibling of the World Champ etc. Sister bred the Flamingo Winner. Give me the why you stocked it. I have sold birds that have not raced or bred, but you better believe I gave the buyer the reason why I thought the birds were good. When you buy a bird ask what the siblings have done, what the family has done etc. If I buy a great ganddaughter of Sure Bet the parents better have bred winners and the siblings have better flown well with real results. Otherwise you got 12.5% sure the bird could be good and a 87.5% question mark. I think I will name my next winner "Sure Thing". Next bird I put in my loft will be a same sex sibling of a 1st place winner in the club that kicked my but. We know they would not give me the winner. I know I will have a better chance with this bird. If it has Sure Bet in the pedigree that is a bonus.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

A winner in my book is a bird that is consistent, one that shows up in good time week after week. This same bird does not have to win every race it just needs to be in the top 10%week after week. This same bird also needs to be one that will do this on its own. I have had other birds take first place only because they come home with this bird that was consistent. Another thing I look at is the brothers and sisters.


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## ace in the hole (Nov 27, 2007)

Pigeon0446 said:


> I see ppl selling birds or just in general describing a bird as "This bird has breed many/multiple winners including 1st place" or "This bird has had many/multiple wins including 1st place" My question for everybody is what do you consider a winner? I want to know so I know what ppl are talking about when they talk about a winner. So to you what does it mean when you say a bird is a winner. Does it mean the bird actually won the race, the bird won a diploma, or the bird was clocked in a money position or won money in the race.


I would say in this case he is talking about money winners. Some of the one loft races will pay out up to 50th place. I would not see a bird that came in 50th in a race as a winner but it is still a money winner.



Ace


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

well if he is talking about one loft races, to me a bird in a one loft is not a winner unless it is ahead of the flock by 5,10,15,min ext. If there are 10 to 20 birds on the drop in my ope ion they all are winners of the race. I may see things a little different.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I myself only consider a bird who was the actual winner of the race meaning they come in 1st. place as being a winner. I can see in a one loft race or if the bird is in a club race and they were on the same drop as the other bird/birds that beat them as maybe calling them equal first but I still wouldn't say that. To me how they actually clocked is the position they got even though they were with the other guys. Going by my way where the bird was actually first I have bred 15 winners over the past 12 years some of them being multiple winners. But if I used diploma winners as my definiton of winners then I'd have over 50. And if I used money winners I'd have no clue since I get a few each week so it would be in the hundreds. So you can see how crazy it could be if ppl are using a loose meaning to the word winner. In my opinion a winner is the winner of the race and that's it.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

A win means 1st place). Pedigrees like that sound like they want to sugarcoat the bird so you'll guy them, when they may have only bred one winning bird and a bunch of lower placing birds. Now if it says "Has bred many winners including 1st place at this many miles, against this many birds, or at this one loft race"....then they just wanted to put emphasis on the more impressive wins.

I consider equal firsts wins as well. In the combine and such, if you get say 4 birds on a drop, and you win 1st-4th place, would you still personally call them 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or would you call them all equal 1st? I think it would be nice if combine results would do that, so you don't push everyone out of top percents, when they really (in my opinion) deserve it. 

I love how they never specify what level these 'winners' are winning at. Club, combine, concourse, federation, one loft? People will just assume it's something impressive and buy the bird for a lot of money.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

When I topped the combine with 2 birds on the drop the winner became my combine winner as I call him and the second place guy was just that a bird who came in 2nd. in the combine not an equal first or a winner. So be it when it came to breeding or anything else I still saw her as a real good bird since she beat the reast of the 2000 birds in that race but she wasn't a winner she got beat by my other bird. I was just figuring it out if I went just by money winners then this past young bird season out of the 25 birds who made it through my training regimen and into races 19 of them would have been winners most would have been multiple winners. Mean while to me I only had one winner since I only actually won one race.


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## Lovelace (Jan 10, 2008)

Let me rephrase, I look at the hold young bird season results on each bird, because some birds are followers and some are leaders. The ones that lead are the ones that will have better results at the End. here is the results of four of my birds from a brother and a sister mated to two different bloodlines.


2513 AU 10 LCL BB 
UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION
1.695% 249 1/59 7 07:50 10/23/2010 Lake Charles RPC
2.064% 138 9/436 26 07:30 09/18/2010 Deep South Cajun Combine
3.333% 204 2/60 7 07:45 10/16/2010 Lake Charles RPC
9.278% 138 9/97 7 07:30 09/18/2010 Lake Charles RPC
10.462% 249 34/325 24 07:50 10/23/2010 Deep South Cajun Combine
14.963% 204 60/401 26 07:45 10/16/2010 Deep South Cajun Combine



525 AU 10 LCL BB 
ACE CATEGORY UNIRATE AVE QUALIFYING RACE MILEAGES

YB - Young Bird 8.323% 249, 138, 138, 308. (145)



UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION
3.922% 249 YB 2/51 7 08:50 10/23/2010 Lake Charles RPC
6.897% 138 YB 4/58 7 08:30 10/09/2010 Lake Charles RPC
6.983% 138 YB 28/401 25 08:30 09/18/2010 Deep South Cajun Combine
9.756% 138 12/123 7 07:30 09/11/2010 Lake Charles RPC
13.043% 138 12/92 7 08:30 09/18/2010 Lake Charles RPC
15.493% 308 YB 11/71 7 08:30 10/02/2010 Lake Charles RPC
17.308% 308 9/52 7 08:30 10/30/2010 Lake Charles RPC




2503 AU 10 LCL BB 
UNIRATE MILES ---QUALIFIED---- POS/BIRDS LOFTS TIME DATE ORGANIZATION
17.778% 204 8/45 6 08:45 10/16/2010 Lake Charles RPC


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## JRNY (Nov 17, 2009)

I consider a winner 1st place. 2nd is the first loser. Right now I have a bird that I brought to breed out of. It was 44th out of 788 birds and 32 lofts. I consider it a good bird .


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Ist Place equals The Winner......In sports like Football,Baseball,etc,or even in Texas Holding poker....There is only one winner,and that is the last man/women with all the poker chips...

If I was to sell any birds,I would boast of the quality of the pigeon pertaing to his/her homing ability,ability to stay healthy without medications,ability to produce healthy babies that will keep you in the top 10% or higher on the race sheet....How could anyone beleive that all the thousands of pigeons sold,each year,will produce winners !! 

I give you one great example....I get the Racing Pigeon Digest....This magazine has many ads in it from people selling pigeons....I love one particular ad that I have seen two years in a row...The guy is selling GFL banded birds.....Over 100 birds have been in each sale....How many birds did he buy from GFL each year ?? How many did he keep,that bred him a winner ?? If he is selling over 100 birds with GFL bands,to me testifies how much money is being WASTED on pigeons that will not even breed you good clock birds...Now this guy is trying to PASS ON these peices of crap to you...Telling you how good they will breed..If they were that good,you would have to offer the guy thousands of dollars,just to get him to even think about selling the bird...

Most of the time,the best way to get/buy really good birds,is to get them locally...Lets say you fly with the CJC combine...There are many All-American lofts,for YB & OB in this New Jersey Combine....Go to one or more and purchased 2 or 3 pairs from two different lofts...Breed down from both lofts birds,and also breed crosses from each line... If the lofts are good honest men,you will do well with their birds...Also,you will be flying birds that do very well from the RACE COURSE that the CJC flys..This is very important...Ask or read about alot of super pigeon men,who retired,and moved their family and their birds to Florida...They found out real quick that birds from Michigan,Pa,NY etc,can`t even get clocked in the top 10% down there...Different horses for different courses !!!........Alamo


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Alamo said:


> Ask or read about alot of super pigeon men,who retired,and moved their family and their birds to Florida...They found out real quick that birds from Michigan,Pa,NY etc,can`t even get clocked in the top 10% down there...Different horses for different courses !!!........Alamo


I know of a few ppl who were the complete opposite. Where they sucked here and couldn't win if you gave them a 20 min head start. And they went down there and a have been winning a few races a year. So be it they have a crap load of races a year there with their long season combined with the fact they have races on a few different days during the week. But so be it they didn't win a race here for meny years be down there they've been winning.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

swaze said:


> Ganus pedigrees are very bad and often misleading. consider he uses a whole page there sure is a lot of missing information. would it kill the guy to invest in a good pedigree program like everyone else? i guess though when you have GFL bands a pedigree that always says "Foundation Quality!" and "Super Couple!" is good enough
> 
> *The thing that bugs me the most about pedigrees lately is the lack of colors listed.* Look around on the various pedigrees on the auctions and notice how few of them list the color of the birds for anything other than the bird you are buying and maybe at best the parents.
> 
> i think this is probably being done deliberately as a colors of ancestors are one way to spot a fraudulent or mistaken pedigree. two blue bars cannot produce a blue check and a red hen mated to a blue cock cannot produce a blue cock or a blue hen but i've seen this in pedigrees before so i think some of the dishonest sellers just figured to get around this they would stop showing colors in the pedigree. of course there are a few guys that do show all of the colors and that is one way I think to at least find a breeder that is not trying to hide anything


I agree. I think many sellers do not understand the importance of colors and how they play a role in the breeding of pigeons. 

And I agree that Ganus has good pigeons, but probably like everyone else, has more bad pigeons than good ones. So much hype in all his pedigrees. If you notice, all his sentences end with an exclamation mark.


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

I have a hen she only won one race but qualified in enough other races to be an AU champ. To me she is a winner more because she is an AU champ than just a first place win.
Dave


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

Crazy Pete said:


> I have a hen she only won one race but qualified in enough other races to be an AU champ. To me she is a winner more because she is an AU champ than just a first place win.
> Dave


I consider my bird 2009 APC 632 to be a winner.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I have my bird that was my club's champion bird this past young bird season. He didn't win any races but he was up there 4 times he was 5th, 6th, 9th, and 10th and racked up enuff points to win. I'd say he's a winner since he did win somthing he won champion bird which is better then just winning one race and not getting clocked in any others.


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

POS NAME BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YPM PT
1 CLIFTON SP/30 922 AU 10 LL BCK C 12:37:01 251.816 00.00 1599.893 91
2 CLIFTON SPENC 928 AU 10 LL BB C 12:37:03 2/ 30 00.01 1599.700 90

This was a hard race for me not to call 928 a winner also. 2 seconds to win and on the drop with the winner by 4 minutes ahead of two loft mates and 7 ahead of the other competition. Clearly these birds were together. 922 is flying old birds 928 is my Christmas resent to myself. She will breed this year. She is my 2nd equal 1st bird. That way she gets both of what she deserves.


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## pigeonnewb (Jan 18, 2008)

I believe winners come in all shapes and sizes. Some of *my *winners doesn't have the first place win. As a matter of fact none of them do. But I have a bird who broke her leg completely at a young age of 7 weeks. I called a club member up and he helped me tape some splints on her leg but she never wanted to stay in the loft. So I let her fly with the group and seven months later she was racing. She clocked in for me every race as neither my first or second bird home. She even diploma'd for me on one of the races. She was never first but usually in the top 20% in the combine. She was a winner to me. I do believe everyone has winners of their own. Maybe with stories like mine to go with it. I do not believe every thing that I read on a pedigree but I do think everyone has winners of their own. This is just one of my story of a winner. I can share you more but it would take too long. Happy Holidays!


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## anil_pigeon (Dec 2, 2010)

I think ppl need to be more specific. For a club race, first is first (if you had 10 on the drop and you took the first 10 places, then ok the other 9 got equal first).

For a one loft race, they need to specify first in the clock, first drop (equal first - after all the birds on the first drop should get the recognition). Ppl should have enough sense to know money winner does not necessarily mean 1st place.

But in this day and age, misleading pedigrees and lengthy descriptions are meant to confuse the buyer. It is obvious on ipigeon who the leading offenders are. One guy puts results of everybody else to sell his birds (yet not a single winner was bred by and entered by him in the money race).
If you are selling birds and they are so good (that everyone else is winning with them), then why not enter a few yourself in the money races?

Example:
John's industry took a hit and is selling pigeons to make ends meet in this tough jobless economy. John advertises his RED CHECK Foundation male:

Jack won 1st with a son; Jill bred a winner with another daughter;
Jerry won in a remote country with a sister (btw with no verifiable way of checking the results); Jason topped his combine 40,000 pigeons; Brian won
(btw in a 15 mile training toss with 99 other birds on the drop); These birds are the number one breeding stud in the US in just two short years; ... turns out all these "winners" never even had a spot of RED in them. 

Are pigeon ppl that gullible?


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Wow, your definition of a winner is severe! Some of those second or third place winners may just be couple of seconds behind. So they are a winner to me, too.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

RodSD said:


> Wow, your definition of a winner is severe! Some of those second or third place winners may just be couple of seconds behind. So they are a winner to me, too.


agreed. if a bird arrives on the same drop as the winner from a breeding perspective why would you not also consider it an equal 1st place winner as after all it did everything in the air exactly the same as the bird that placed 1st on the sheet the only thing it didn't do was run through the traps as quick.

nobody breeds for trapping and which birds can run to the stalls quicker than others so from a breeding perspective it would be extremely foolish to hold that against a pair that breeds a bird that flys the exact same speed in the air and arrives with the 1st bird in the clock but traps a little slower

for lofts that routinely get drops or especially big drops of birds most of the time their best birds are not even the first ones in the traps


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If you look at the GHC the first 100 birds are a minute apart. There my be 10 on the same second and not all are from the same fancier. Not all are equal 1st. The first bird to clock is 1st.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

hillfamilyloft said:


> If you look at the GHC the first 100 birds are a minute apart. There my be 10 on the same second and not all are from the same fancier. Not all are equal 1st. The first bird to clock is 1st.


that different though you are talking about the positions being mixed up with different loft and loft locations even though they are all bunched up

for most people when they race the goal is to beat the guys they are flying against not to beat themselves

so if you get 5 or even 15 on a drop and they all beat the lofts you are competing against from a breeding perspective why would you consider the last bird in the traps any worse than the first bird? that would be really stupid if you considered the parents of the 1st bird in the traps somehow better than the parents of the other birds that arrived at same time. they both did the same thing as far as actually racing home and it's usually just a crap shoot for trapping when they hit the board. often times the worst birds that are the most tired of the drop actually trap first


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

swaze said:


> Ganus pedigrees are very bad and often misleading. consider he uses a whole page there sure is a lot of missing information. would it kill the guy to invest in a good pedigree program like everyone else? i guess though when you have GFL bands a pedigree that always says "Foundation Quality!" and "Super Couple!" is good enough
> 
> *The thing that bugs me the most about pedigrees lately is the lack of colors listed.* Look around on the various pedigrees on the auctions and notice how few of them list the color of the birds for anything other than the bird you are buying and maybe at best the parents.
> 
> i think this is probably being done deliberately as a colors of ancestors are one way to spot a fraudulent or mistaken pedigree. two blue bars cannot produce a blue check and a red hen mated to a blue cock cannot produce a blue cock or a blue hen but i've seen this in pedigrees before so i think some of the dishonest sellers just figured to get around this they would stop showing colors in the pedigree. of course there are a few guys that do show all of the colors and that is one way I think to at least find a breeder that is not trying to hide anything


I agree with the colors too. Most people don't realize the dominance of colors/patterns and how it can tell you if you have a pair cheating or not. Those who do, I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing just what you're saying.
And by the way, a red hen with a blue cock produces blue hens and red cocks


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I agree with the colors too. Most people don't realize the dominance of colors/patterns and how it can tell you if you have a pair cheating or not. Those who do, I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing just what you're saying.
> And by the way, a red hen with a blue cock produces blue hens and red cocks


 What about a red check cock with a blue check hen..What will it produce?


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

swaze said:


> that different though you are talking about the positions being mixed up with different loft and loft locations even though they are all bunched up
> 
> for most people when they race the goal is to beat the guys they are flying against not to beat themselves
> 
> so if you get 5 or even 15 on a drop and they all beat the lofts you are competing against from a breeding perspective why would you consider the last bird in the traps any worse than the first bird? that would be really stupid if you considered the parents of the 1st bird in the traps somehow better than the parents of the other birds that arrived at same time. they both did the same thing as far as actually racing home and it's usually just a crap shoot for trapping when they hit the board. often times the worst birds that are the most tired of the drop actually trap first


For my own personal purposes I would consider the bird as good as a winner and would breed out of it or whatever as if it was a winner. But I wouldn't tell other ppl that bird was a winner I would say what it was 5th or whatever but on the same drop as the winner. My champion bird from this past young bird season came with other birds 2 times and when he did come with other birds they clocked faster then him since he was a lil skidish when he landed and the other guys ran in, so he lost spots/points in the races to my own birds. I tell ppl the positions he clocked not that he would have been if he clocked faster. And even times when a bird doesn't win but is beat by a extremly small margin in a race that wasn't in my favor I would consider that bird as good or better then a winner for my breeding purposes. But I would tell other ppl just what it wound up so be it 2nd or 10th in the race not a winner. I'm just saying ppl are using the word winner to build up their name and sell birds or make ppl think they have better birds then they do by saying it is a winner when they really aren't winners. The bird can be better or worse but they still aren't a true winner as in actually winning a race or a 1st place champion bird award. But winning to me if I'm telling sombody about my birds means the bird actually won not just clocked good a few times or won money or a diploma. With the definition some ppl are using there really isn't anything specail about winning since almost everything is a winner. Would you go to horse race and say the 2nd place horse was a winner because he only got beat by a nose hair? He got beat just like if one bird on your loft clocks b4 the other the first one is the winner or if you lose time clocking when you should have won but now you get beat that bird isn't a winner. I'd still look at it like it was a winner for my use but not for other ppl because it's misleading.


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## Kal-El (Oct 10, 2008)

R-Tune said:


> What about a red check cock with a blue check hen..What will it produce?


Red and blue cocks and red hens.


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## R-Tune (Oct 26, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> Red and blue cocks and red hens.


hey thanks kal- el


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

Kal-El said:


> Red and blue cocks and red hens.


You will get blue hens with that mating too. Ask Becky too she can confirm.

I made a typo in my post and Becky corrected it and was right on the money.

red hen mated to blue cock =

sons are reds

daughters are blue


if you mate two non-recessive reds together

all sons must be red

and daughters can be either red or blue


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## Matt Bell (May 5, 2010)

swaze said:


> You will get blue hens with that mating too. Ask Becky too she can confirm.
> 
> I made a typo in my post and Becky corrected it and was right on the money.
> 
> ...



You could get blue hens with that mating, it depends on what the 2nd color gene of the cock is. If he is homozygous red, there will be no blue hens. If he is split red and blue then there will be blue hens, could even get brown if he is split red and brown.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

Matt Bell said:


> You could get blue hens with that mating, it depends on what the 2nd color gene of the cock is. If he is homozygous red, there will be no blue hens. If he is split red and blue then there will be blue hens, could even get brown if he is split red and brown.


Yeah I know. On the second combination of a red cock mated to red hen I was assuming the cock was heterozygous and only carried one red gene so you would get hens of both colors.

You are right though if the cock has two red genes everything he breeds will be red.

The grizzle and white grizzle gene is similar except that it's not sex linked. 

Only gene that you see a lot in pigeons that i am still trying to figure out is the gene for white flights and splash markings. from what little i can find on it sounds like it is recessive but sometimes it sure seems with certain birds that is dominant. maybe there are two different types of genes for white flights?

sometimes you can mate a blue white flight splash with a solid blue and none of the babies will have any white flights or splashes whereas other times you can do the same mating and seems like every baby has white flights


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## DEEJAY7950 (Dec 13, 2006)

Funny how people have a different view as to what makes a winner, some would say 1st place is a winner?, but is it really when you consider all aspects of a race, for instance you have a guy in the combine who is so short that he wins many races and you have another guy who is on the far end who's birds are flying twice as far as the short ender and nearly beats him on the sheet, I wouldn't buy birds from a short ender but I would definitely consider those long enders birds that are always in the top 10% of the sheet IMHO! The one loft races are the only true test of a birds ability since all the birds are on a even playing field as to loft position, training,feed,handling and so on! So in my opinion birds in the top 10% of a one loft race are the better birds as long as the races have some distance to them, watch out for those birds that can only fly short races, sprinters for me are useless have no heart and do little to improve our birds flying abilities! My young birds are able to fly 400 miles and these are the birds that make flying fun for me on a Saturday watching the birds home from these distances! To each his own remember to have FUN!


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

If you follow the one loft races you tend to see names you have never heard before. There are a bunch of good birds out there from a lot of different fanciers. 10 years ago the names were more familiar. Many times these birds go cheap because they are not attached to a big name. You may even get a hand written pedigree. Sometimes the winner is overlooked for the paper. In a one loft race the average speed or champion bird over the three races may be the better bird than the 300 mile winner. Depends on what you want the bird for. For club races I look at high points or champion birds, for 300 mile one loft races look at the 300 winners. More and more the races have payouts for all the races in the series. In my situation my winners are my breeders since others fly my birds.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

DEEJAY7950 said:


> Funny how people have a different view as to what makes a winner, some would say 1st place is a winner?, but is it really when you consider all aspects of a race, for instance you have a guy in the combine who is so short that he wins many races and you have another guy who is on the far end who's birds are flying twice as far as the short ender and nearly beats him on the sheet, I wouldn't buy birds from a short ender but I would definitely consider those long enders birds that are always in the top 10% of the sheet IMHO! The one loft races are the only true test of a birds ability since all the birds are on a even playing field as to loft position, training,feed,handling and so on! So in my opinion birds in the top 10% of a one loft race are the better birds as long as the races have some distance to them, watch out for those birds that can only fly short races, sprinters for me are useless have no heart and do little to improve our birds flying abilities! My young birds are able to fly 400 miles and these are the birds that make flying fun for me on a Saturday watching the birds home from these distances! To each his own remember to have FUN!


Nobody said that there aren't other birds in the race that are better then the winner. But there should only be one winner being the winner doesn't mean it was the best bird it means on that day it made the best speed for whatever reason so be it loft position or whatever other variables that can be at play.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

As for one loft races they don't prove who is the best bird either. What they do prove who is the best bird they way that handler is handling them. I think if you take the birds from any one loft race and put them in the hands of a different handler who trains and feeds the whole team differently your gonna get different birds winning.


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

R-Tune said:


> What about a red check cock with a blue check hen..What will it produce?


If he is pure for red (two copies of the gene, no black flecking), then you'll get all red children, and the cocks will have black flecks.
If he is split for blue, you'll get half red offspring, and half blue offspring - of either sex.
If he is split for brown, you'll get red and brown hens, and the cocks will be red carrying blue (blue flecking), and red carrying brown (brown flecks).
As far as what patterns you'll get, they will be either checks or bars, depending on whether the parents are pure checks, or split for bar or barless.


A Red cock with a black hen is the same case as all the scenarios I listed above. The only difference is the spread gene, which turns blue into black. If she is pure for spread, all of your kids will be spread (black, lavender, or brown if he carries it). If she only has one gene for it (it's dominant, so it shows either way), then half of your offspring will be spread, and half will be normal colored.


As far as white flights and splashes, there are at least 7 white genes. Whiteflight, piebald, recessive white, baldhead, whitetail...and....I can't remember the rest  Magpie (or whatever you want to call a white body) and tailmark perhaps? I'm pretty sure saddle is a combo of genes (baldhead, whitetail, whiteflight, and magpie if it is one?). I don't know. George knows more about the white genes than me. The inheritance of white is still not completely sorted out.
Piebalds vary a LOT. I think the difference between a little bit of pied and splashes, is whether the gene is "turned off" early or later. Just a theory, don't know for sure  Kind of like freckles/moles - they pop up randomly, and some people have a lot, some have a few.



How did we get from a Winning bird conversation, to a color conversation? From now on, keep the color in a different thread


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

MaryOfExeter said:


> If he is pure for red (two copies of the gene, no black flecking), then you'll get all red children, and the cocks will have black flecks.
> If he is split for blue, you'll get half red offspring, and half blue offspring - of either sex.
> If he is split for brown, you'll get red and brown hens, and the cocks will be red carrying blue (blue flecking), and red carrying brown (brown flecks).
> As far as what patterns you'll get, they will be either checks or bars, depending on whether the parents are pure checks, or split for bar or barless.
> ...


Simple. We may want to know whether there is a correlation between bird's color and being a winner. I mean most birds that win seem to be blue-bar or checkers. Is there any relation to that? I mean is there a winning gene there somewhere in those colors?


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

RodSD said:


> Simple. We may want to know whether there is a correlation between bird's color and being a winner. I mean most birds that win seem to be blue-bar or checkers. Is there any relation to that? I mean is there a winning gene there somewhere in those colors?


blue bar is the natural color of the original racing pigeon and blue check was the next to follow. since blue bar is also recessive it makes it almost impossible to get rid of it especially since it was the beginning and primary color.

when you then consider that red, white, and grizzle were all mutations that developed later it is understandable that from the start there was much less of them in circulation. *i don't think anybody has ever made the argument that red, white, or grizzle are better than blues or checks so if you consider them equal......they were never going to pass up blues in abundance if people were using results for selection*

of course you also have people that prefer whites and reds and grizzles and don't keep them for performance (but only for color) which sets those colors back. and then you have another group that has a bias towards colored birds and thinks they are not as good....even though the gene for color has nothing to do with performance.

when you add all those together it's easy to see why most winners are blue bars or blue checks considering they represent the largest percentage of people flocks


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Color has nothing to do with performance, unless you breed for color only. It is very possible to breed color into good quality birds, and work with both at the same time, but most people don't want to put in the effort.
A LOT of people feel like if it isn't blue, it isn't good. It may also have something to do with the amount of blues in a flock compared to others. If you had a whole flock of blues and one or two reds, you can't help but notice the reds first because they stick out like a sore thumb. Perhaps in that case, the hawks' eyes may be drawn to them first as well.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You may be right. Color may have nothing to do with performance, but may have something to do with survivability. If birds don't survive they can't pass their winning gene. So I suppose it has only indirect correlation, if not coincidence.


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## swaze (Mar 3, 2010)

RodSD said:


> You may be right. Color may have nothing to do with performance, but may have something to do with survivability. If birds don't survive they can't pass their winning gene. So I suppose it has only indirect correlation, if not coincidence.


there may be some merit to colored birds being more targeted by hawks but i dont think the effect is as big as everyone thinks. i've had hawks go right through the flock and bypass colored birds plenty of times to nail a plain blue bar.

also blue bars and blue checks win the largest percentage of races because of their higher numbers but it's not like you hardly see the other colors doing well

go to almost any combine race sheet in america and you will see colored birds all over it on there despite their much lower numbers and less likelihood of getting there

here is a random result for the the 300 to 350 Mile Race from Warren's combine the United Combine that is considered one of the toughest combine in America from 2010 young birds

http://www.racingpigeonmall.com/cgi-bin/rac_data/racdata_rac.pl?fid=1289423412&query=Name%2Bof%2BClub%2Bor%2BCombine%3DUnited%2BPigeon%2BCombine%26pagenum%3D1%26cgifunction%3DSearch&cgifunction=form

if you notice 
the 1st place combine winner is a Red Check
3rd place is a chocolate
6th place is a blue splash
7th is a blue check wf
11th is a grizzle

so how exactly are the blue bars and blue checks dominating again? i just went to that combine and looked for the 300 mile yb race and this is what I came up with


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

Thanks for posting that link. I always wanted to see Warren's results.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Thanks for posting that link. I always wanted to see Warren's results.


Yeah....but ya got to look hard, cause sometimes my birds win diplomas under other fanciers names ! 

In this particular race, the 1st Place club winner was our new Rookie member I recruited into our club. And in my book..Jorge Burgoes..was a Winner on this day !!!  Notice the bird was a very traditional Dark Check.


WinSpeed-1 United Pigeon Combine 10/22/10-16:21

OVERALL Weekly Race Report Page 1

Open and Sportsman CategoryName: 

MARION Young Bird Race 
Flown: 10/17/2010Release(A): 08:00 Birds: 908 Lofts: 68 

Station: MARION, VAWeather (Rel) Clear, W 12.7, 45 degrees 
(Arr) Clear, W 14-23, 70 degrees POS NAME 
BAND NUMBER CLR X ARRIVAL MILES TOWIN YP PT 

1 MATTHEW HO/12 1131 IF 10 RLPC RC H 13:58:15 342.040 00.00 1680.429 100 

2 BOB KOCH/18 1340 IF 10 HBG BC 14:12:39 349.853 06.12 1652.396 99 

3 BOB KOCH 1330 IF 10 HBG CHOC 14:12:43 2/ 18 06.16 1652.100 98 

4 RON KORREL/20 1006 IF 10 CCC B C 13:01:26 282.694 05.20 1650.657 97 

5 GINGER DAV/20 1612 IF 10 HHC BC H 13:41:55 320.319 06.24 1648.893 96 

6 TRACY DAVI/20 1994 IF 10 HHC BSPL H 13:43:07 320.326 07.36 1643.163 95 

7 MATTHEW HOOVE 351 IF 10 UPC BCWF C 14:07:41 2/ 12 09.25 1637.314 94 

8 BEEGLE LOF/20 303 IF 10 RLPC B H 13:54:05 328.322 10.12 1631.953 93 

9 ERNIE GARR/12 840 IF 10 GSS B C 14:25:23 357.048 11.25 1630.597 92

10 DICK CAVEY/20 1547 IF 10 CCC B C 13:32:18 306.748 11.02 1624.601 91 

11 BILLY ROMJ/20 317 IF 10 RLPC GRIZ H 13:56:54 329.171 12.08 1623.256 90 

12 *JORGE BURG*/12 2931 *AU 10 SFL DC H *14:03:51 335.092 12.53 1620.892 89


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> As for* one loft races they don't prove who is the best bird *either. What they do prove *who is the best bird they way that handler is handling them*. I think if you take the birds from any one loft race and put them in the hands of a different handler who trains and feeds the whole team differently* your gonna get different birds winning*.


 Is there any race contest anywhere, which can beyond a reasonable doubt, show which bird is the "Best" bird ?  No such event exists that I am aware of. 

May I suggest, that if you take those same birds in your One Loft example above, and fly them the following week...or the week after that....even at the same distance.... you will have different results. In fact, you could hold the same race, week after week...and you will still get different results. I don't think the handler will be able to duplicate those results, no matter how hard he tries, or how many times he sends them to a race.

Any race, in any kind of sporting event, animal or human....will only tell you the best result on that particular day, for that particular event. No two events, can ever be exactly the same. 

It is my contention then, that you could take 100 pigeons and train them, and then conduct numerous 100 miles races over say a 12 week period. During that time period, maybe you hold 20 or more different races, and the exact order the birds arrive and clock in, will vary on each and every race. On any given race, you could have a different bird which is "best" on that given day. One could insist that his birds do better under some different system...and he may be correct. But, one could then also make the point, that all the other birds may do better under some different system as well. 

Until the perfect race system is invented, which will solve the question of which is the best bird, we will always have to contend with an imperfect race system. But, I would argue, that having a single loft and system, as imperfect as it may be, is a much better method of measuring a bird's performance over a number of races. Then having say a 100 different lofts, a 100 different locations, a 100 different handlers, a 100 different systems, and a 100 different distances to cover, in order to determine who might be the best on that particular race, when the wind was blowing this way towards this guys loft etc. etc. etc.

Any horse man worth his salt, knows only too well, that the outcome of the horse race can be influenced by the condition of the track. Some horses are known to do very well when the track is wet and sloppy, while others are just the opposite. Then there is the skill and the weight of the jockeys. Then there is the starting position. That and perhaps a 100 other things that can and will influence who the winner might be in any particular race. 

We can engage in some philosophical discussion if that winning horse, was the "best" horse....but the problem there, is that there is no real way to ever answer the question. So we are left with who is the winner ? And in pigeon racing, it is the pigeon which was entered into a racing event, and which finished with the fastest speed. Does not matter really how many birds were in the race, if he is the 1st one, then he is the winner. One can then attempt to measure the size and scope of what that victory may mean, but in every Club or Combine I am aware of....it is the 1st bird with the fastest speed which determines who the club and combine race winner is. Then we could further muddy the water and bring up "Diploma Winner" or "Prize" winner...or "Equal 1st"...but then we are really going far afield.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Is there any race contest anywhere, which can beyond a reasonable doubt, show which bird is the "Best" bird ?  No such event exists that I am aware of.
> 
> May I suggest, that if you take those same birds in your One Loft example above, and fly them the following week...or the week after that....even at the same distance.... you will have different results. In fact, you could hold the same race, week after week...and you will still get different results. I don't think the handler will be able to duplicate those results, no matter how hard he tries, or how many times he sends them to a race.
> 
> ...


Atleast we agree on one thing that "the 1st bird with the fastest speed which determines who the club and combine race winner is" Well I agree with you as well that if you hold a race the next week or even a different day the odds are your gonna have a different winner. So to me the only way to figure out who is the best bird in that loft is to have a bunch of races with a piont system or and average speed. Because the best bird in any such race isn't necessarily the bird who maybe got lucky and won one race but the bird who was always near the top of the sheet in multiple races. But the only way to prove that a guy is a good breeder and prove his birds are truly the best is for that breeder to breed good birds in many different one loft events with differnt handling and different conditions.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

A bird that wins in multiple races Is a winner. A bird that is consistant in multiple races Is a winner. The birds you the person fly tested aginst others show you the birds in your loft that are the keepers even though they may not have won But scored well over all Those birds can move you forward. One loft races are a good test. But Even that bird may not be the best you raised that year. And 1 season does not really test the best. Some lines perform there best as 3 year olds. BUT show there worth earlyer.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeon0446 said:


> Atleast we agree on one thing that "the 1st bird with the fastest speed which determines who the club and combine race winner is" Well I agree with you as well that if you hold a race the next week or even a different day the odds are your gonna have a different winner. So to me the only way to figure out who is the best bird in that loft is to have a bunch of races with a piont system or and average speed. Because the best bird in any such race isn't necessarily the bird who maybe got lucky and won one race but the bird who was always near the top of the sheet in multiple races. But the only way to prove that a guy is a good breeder and prove his birds are truly the best is for that breeder to breed good birds in many different one loft events with differnt handling and different conditions.


 I think we do agree on these points. 

There have been a number of times when a bird under our local race rules would sort of fall through the cracks and not get the credit that might be due. We have a three bird clocking limit. So, you can clock a dozen birds, but only the first three will be counted. Not my doing....Combine is maybe afraid someone...maybe like me ...will come aliong and clock the first 10 positions or something. And that of course would not be "fair" under IF thinking...but that is subject to differnt thread.

You know where I am going with this...bird shows up 3rd one week...ok, then a 4th, then a 5th, then a 4th, then a 1st...use your imagination. Bird does not look as good by records, when compared to a 2 time 1st place winner...that maybe was late for three other races, and was out over night a couple of times etc. But, this 3rd, 4th, 5th place wonder could be very consistant...and there week after week after week. Which bird is the "Better" bird ??? Which one maybe should be used for breeding ? Perhaps if bird was clocked under AU rules, could be a Champion Bird...but in example I listed, might very well show up way down the Bird of the Year list. I don't really know the answer...has not happened every year. I am sure One Loft events will have the Winners....and at same time, very possible that better birds were in the loft. I think the points or average speed, would help ID these special birds as you suggest. The systems we use now, are not perfect, that we can agree.


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> I think we do agree on these points.
> 
> There have been a number of times when a bird under our local race rules would sort of fall through the cracks and not get the credit that might be due. We have a three bird clocking limit. So, you can clock a dozen birds, but only the first three will be counted. Not my doing....Combine is maybe afraid someone...maybe like me ...will come aliong and clock the first 10 positions or something. [/SIZE]And that of course would not be "fair" under IF thinking...but that is subject to differnt thread.
> 
> You know where I am going with this...bird shows up 3rd one week...ok, then a 4th, then a 5th, then a 4th, then a 1st...use your imagination. Bird does not look as good by records, when compared to a 2 time 1st place winner...that maybe was late for three other races, and was out over night a couple of times etc. But, this 3rd, 4th, 5th place wonder could be very consistant...and there week after week after week. Which bird is the "Better" bird ??? Which one maybe should be used for breeding ? Perhaps if bird was clocked under AU rules, could be a Champion Bird...but in example I listed, might very well show up way down the Bird of the Year list. I don't really know the answer...has not happened every year. I am sure One Loft events will have the Winners....and at same time, very possible that better birds were in the loft. I think the points or average speed, would help ID these special birds as you suggest. The systems we use now, are not perfect, that we can agree.


I'd hate if they did that here I get it all the time wher I get more then 3 birds in the top 10% and it would suck for the bird that is the 4th bird in my clock wouldn't get any recognition. Plus all the birds I really beat would get a higher placement since my birds that beat them wouldn't be counted I don't think that is fair for national awards. Like the IF Hall of Fame or Champin Loft. If a guy beats me with 5 birds I'll end up 6th but if a guy beats you with 20 birds you can still be 4th. Thats not fair. But I don't think that rule was made for you I'm thinking it was made more for a guy like Bob Koch.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Amen to "No Clocking limit" !!! In my combine,it took me 3 years to get them to increase the clocking limit to 5 birds....If anything,you can lower the shipping limit to 15/20 birds only,and then have a no limit clocking....SFL is right !! They only have these stupid limits because they can`t beat the real good lofts...I don`t like having a bird in 12th place,with a clocking limit...I would rather have my 1st bird in 27th place say,without a clocking limit...At least you know out of say 800+ birds,only 26 beat him/her....Alamo


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## Pigeon0446 (Apr 22, 2007)

I read the thread about equal 1st and made me think about this thread I started a long time ago about the word winner and what it meant to different ppl in the world of pigeon racing. So I went back and read it and I saw my last post I said something about the IF Hall of Fame and Champion Loft awards not being fair because other combines or clubs have clocking limit. Skip ahead a few years now I've won the IF Hall of Fame once and I've had good showings in the IF Champion Loft and I'm now the IF Awards Chairman in charge of those awards.


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