# Vitamin D limits/toxicity for Pigeons..?



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi all...


Was thinking to offer supplimental Vitamin D for early-symptom PPMV Pigeons.


Anyone now of any upper limits of short-term tolerance for Pigeons?



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

why would you wanna suplement Vitamin D for a PMV ??


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Supplimental Vitamin D, in large doses, has shown remission of virus symptoms in variousn studies of people.


Possibly, it would also benifit an early-symptom PPMV Pigeon.


Vitamin A has low limits for toxicity in people and Birds-Pigeons, where, in people, Vitamin D can be taken in truely massive doses ( 2,000 IU/K ) with no problem...but, I do not know how this would translate for Avian or Pigeon metabolism.


Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

ok I will give you the info

Birds Vit D3 IU/kg minimum requirement is - 500.00

recommended allowance for maintenance is - 1000.00

THE RECOMMENDED ALLOWANCE WILL SUPORT NORMAL MAINTENANCE OF BIRDS AND HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO BE ADEQUATE DURING LONG-TERM FEEDING.. THESE LEVELS, HOWEVER, MAY NOT BE ADEQUATE for breeding and growth, which may require higher levels.

But I just wonder about relationship as far as calcium,phosphorus and Vitamin D3
you know , metabolic balance.

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,



Thank you...makes sense...


Got in an 'early' phase-syptom probably PPMV Pigeon today...was thinking to try Vitamin D, possibly with Calcium & Magnesium, with the D being in a heavy dose for say, three days.


Should not hurt...might help...


Also, your mention reminds me that the various pro-tem or long-term residents here probably would benifit for some emphasis on the D-Magnesium-Calcium situation...and I had even bought such a combo ealier today for them.


Any ideas or opinions about supplimental Vitamin C for early-phase PPMV Pigeons?


And or...about what one could do for early-phase PPMV Pigeons, or, Survivors who though long since finished with the illness, still labor with handicap/legacy?



Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,



Don't know if you are familiar with this article -




http://priory.com/vet/falcons.htm




This may also work for Pigeons in 'early' phases of PPMV.



Phil
l v


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Phil,

Thanks for posting the link. It was an excellent article.

Margaret


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey I log out yesterday, so only today could I read the column. Wow the article is exlent. Thank You for that link I did saved that for my own use too.

There is lack of studies on the subject

As far as the ones which are already sick or did survived there are realy not much studies done with the health ones, as far as vitamins and minerals uptake. What I mean is , that, you have take into the consideration type of a bird. Let say seed eating only bird (PIgeon) compare with Omnivorous birds. Cause their intake on minerals and vitamins will be different, so do also their needs for it. So we are on dangerous grands here, what is good for a one specie of a bird may be nono for the other.

Im really, because of that, reluctant to have save opinion. 

What is save to know is as Vitamin C goes : the debilitated bird may not be able to adequately synthesize enough Vit C, specially in case of hepatic damage. Exposure to any other stress (illness, etc) has shown to improve health.
Vitamin C has not be demonstrated to be a required nutrient for any of the avian species, except frugivorous species Vit C is easily manufactured in birds with the enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase. This enzyme works on a substrate generated from glucose producing an intermediate that is then converted to L-ascorbic acid. This process occurs in the liver in most passerine species (Pigeon).

So I guess in Pigeon which is seed eating Vit C is absorbed by passive diffusion. Absorption appears to be relatively high when fed at normal levels. Decreased absorption occurs as the physiologic dose is exceeded. There are limited testing for a Pigeons.But chickens do benefit from adding Vit C under certain conditions (you know stress, illness) So I would say go for it , but have no clue as far as how much would be too much. As far as Pigeons sick with PMV already - the enzymes required to produce the metabolically active form of VIT D will be impaired. So yes providing VIT D is good choice here. Sorry took me so long

Nell


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,



Thank you...

I appreciate your replys very much.


I adminstered orally, a 400 IU liquid-filled Capsule of Vitamin D yesterady evening, to the new-arrive, ( presumed to be ) early-phase PPMV Pigeon...and I will also supply drinking Water enhanced generously, with soluable Vitamin C with Magnesium and Calcium, Zink, B6 etc, as occurs in the packets of 'Emergen-C' - "Bone Health" version...where, one Packet will be mixed with one Pint of Water.

Pigeon is self-feeding...


http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/alac...ource=google&utm_medium=GPS&utm_campaign=3255




Any opinion/conjecture on "el Dopa" being potentially benificial for post-PPMV survivors having a Torticolus legacy?



Was shown to be helpful for Encephalitis Lethargica legacy issues in people...even after fourty-five years since onset -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalitis_lethargica



Short Dopamine article here -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine



Phil
l v


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## corvid (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay, now you are really fricking me out...

I mean I like the info in those link, but all those supplements are for people.
Calculations are based on 2000 calories daily for human consumption. Now when we taking about the birds , we will have allowances in ppm or ppb , what have you, so you have to convert all that into what you will need in ppm, or I guess convert ppm into the grams, to see how much you really giving to your bird, how much he needs and all that stuff . I know , what I will do I will type for you the higher allowances (not the minimums) and then , you will go on google find conversion tables from ppm to grams, so you will know, how much you have to chop up those pills, if in powder , then forget it. Dont use it as it is for humans only. Buy in stores for pets - birds. 

As far as DOPAMINE..????? The only steroid I have knolege about is DEX, that is Dexamethasone, as far as use in birds. I know those articels sound so promissing, but You would have to have the ones, which are done on birds, cause how you going to avaluate amonts, ratios,metabolism . And I know there is no studies yet, as far as , what you are asking . 

Vitamins
VIT A, IU/kg - 5000.00
VIT D3 IU/kg -1000.00
VIT E IU/kg - 20.00
VIT K, ppm - 1.00
Thiamine, ppm - 5.00
Riboflavin, ppm - 10.00
Niacin, ppm - 75.00
Pyridoxine, ppm - 10.00
Pantothenic acid, ppm 15.00
Biotin, ppm 0.20
Folic acid , ppm 2.00
VIT B 12, ppb 10.00
Choline, ppm 1000.00
VIT C no requirements demonrtrated

MINERALS
Calcium, % 0.50
Phosphorus,(available) % 0.25
Phosphorus (total) approx. % 0.40
Sodium, % 0.15 
Chlorine, % 0.15 
Potassium, % 0.40
Magnesium, ppm 600.00
Manganese, ppm 75.00
Iron, ppm 80.00
Zinc, ppm 50.00
Copper, ppm 8.00
Iodine, ppm 0.30
Selenium 0.10
AMINO ACIDS
Lysine, % 0.60
Methionine , % 0.25
Tryptophan, % 0.12
Arginine, % 0.60
Threonine, % 0.40

Protein, % 12.00
Fat, % 4.00
Energy, kcal/kg 3000.00

Man I m poop up....LOL


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Nell,



As far as any suppliments dissolved in Water, a Bird will drink so-much a-day, where, the dosage then is of course a question of concentration in solution, to volume drank.


Essentially...what I am interested in...is a forthright regimen, for aiding early-phase syptom PPMV Pigeons...particularly where the regimen would be harmless, forgiving within fairly wide limits, and well tolerated.


Potassium Arsinate as described in the previous article, interests me also of course...and I intend to investigate it further.



Short term Vitamin-Mineral suppliments should be fine, so long as the A Vitamin is not heavily represented.

In Nature, normal feral Pigeons will gorge themselves on natural mineral deposits, old Plaster or Gypsum-Board, as well as 'green' or ripened small berrys-seeds-fruiting bodys of plants...even fallen Olives...occasioning short-term 'doses' of Minerals or Vitamins thousands of times what would be a usual maintenance rate.


So...I amthinking, a PPMV Pigeon being a different matter than routine nutritional concerns for normal healthy Pigeons...should have no problem with doses a normal Pigeon would enounter, and or, may benifit from high doses of certain things, short term.





Phil
l v


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I give my birds organic cod liver oil, it supplies everything needed with the vitamin D3, make sure to find one that is free of any contaminents. A drop a month is enough for maintenance dose.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Tressa,




Good mention..!


I am interested in exploring regimens which could aid the early phase PPMV Pigeon...ideally, by preventing or lessening further developent of symptoms.


I'd agree that Cod Live Oil in small amounts is a fine suppliment...I really like it myself, also! - possibly would be good choice to have as a component of a PPMV treatment.


Cod Liver Oil is heavy in Vitamin A, so one would have to watch out for any A-content of other suppliments, so as not to OD the Pigeon A-wise.


Chlorophyl possibly would be worth considering...though not easily obtained.



Anyway...

Brooding...


Thanks!




Phil
l v


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