# 4th of July



## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

A very happy 4th of July to everyone!!!

Margarret


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

A Very happy and safe 4th of July to you TOO Margarret and all our members.  

http://sagebrushpatriot.com/america.htm

Thank you.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, happy and safe to you Margaret as well as the rest of the members, their
families and all of our feathered friends, one and all.

fp


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

God Bless America....


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

It's time you folks down in the USA, got over yourselves. Sorry, but I do happen to have a LOT more respect for your country than most do in the world today, but.....try to have a little more humility and humbleness than you normally demonstrate during such times.

Just an insignificant Canadian's persective, HOWEVER, think about what your country has achieved or hasn't achieved in the last several years.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> It's time you folks down in the USA, got over yourselves. *Sorry, but I do happen to have a LOT more respect for your country than most do in the world today, but.....try to have a little more humility and humbleness than you normally demonstrate during such times.*
> 
> Just an insignificant Canadian's persective, HOWEVER, think about what your country has achieved or hasn't achieved in the last several years.


You call that RESPECT, it would have been best if you had just not said anything at all, that would have been the respectful and honorable thing to do.

It is healthy and normal for everyone in this country to CELEBRATE their nations BIRTHDAY. Yes, it has its problems, so do all nations, so what?

This has nothing to do with humbleness and humility, this is a day to honor our heritige, not the time for you to put us down.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Trees Gray said:


> You call that RESPECT, it would have been best if you had just not said anything at all, that would have been the respectful and honorable thing to do.
> 
> It is healthy and normal for everyone in this country to CELEBRATE their nations BIRTHDAY. Yes, it has its problems, so do all nations, so what?
> 
> This has nothing to do with humbleness and humility, this is a day to honor our heritige, not the time for you to put us down.


And I thought Canadians had their heads buried in the sand.....LOL. Dear lord almighty. Oh well, you can all live in your glass bubble but the real truth of the matter is that things aren't going very well in terms of international relations for the USA. This is a moot point and irrelevant but, all I wanted to convey is that your country isn't the end all, nor the appointed "guardian" of the world. Get over yourselves and learn from your past, "global" mistakes...that's all.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Brad,
For whatever reason, you seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder.  

There was absolutely no justification for your inappropriate remarks.
Enough is enough, please.

Margarret opened this thread to wish the folks of the US a happy 4th of July. It will *NOT* be turned into a debate, nor will be be closed, rather any further confrontational/inappropriate posts will be deleted on the spot. 

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> And I thought Canadians had their heads buried in the sand.....LOL. Dear lord almighty. Oh well, you can all live in your glass bubble but the real truth of the matter is that things aren't going very well in terms of international relations for the USA. This is a moot point and irrelevant but, all I wanted to convey is that your country isn't the end all, nor the appointed "guardian" of the world. Get over yourselves and learn from your past, "global" mistakes...that's all.



PLEASE don't insult my intelligence, I'm well aware of what goes on in this country and in the world.

THE POINT IS everything YOU have said is IRRELEVENT to this thread, INSULTING, and mostly unkind.

Have a little respect for your fellow members if anything, and don't waste anymore of our time.


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

My blood is boiling right now and my thoughts about you pigeonpal I can not post. I don't like you right now, but not as a Canadian but as a person.

All countries have problems and we in the United States have made bad decisions but there is no other country I would rather live in. We have a lot to be thankful for.



> *comments weren't worth a banning*


Yes, they were. Thank you! Moderators.



> *
> how very, VERY RUDE and typical*


Look in the mirror, I can't believe you posted that.


Do me a favor and keep your head burried in the sand. Put your hands there to, it may keep them away from the keyboard.

Wow, unbelievable......


*PS - Have a Happy and Safe 4th of July!*


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

HAPPY 4th OF JULY.
God bless America.

Reti


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I'll add my good wishes to y'all, also.

Think yourselves fortunate - can you imagine being 'ruled' by Tony Blair or Gordon Brown 

John


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Oh dear, I sure didn't intend to start an international debate! I should have prefaced my statement with "to those of you who are celebrating the 4th today, a happy.....etc.

Pigeon Pal,

I'm sorry that you inferred from my comments that I was somehow making a political statement. You don't know me, but if you did you would know that I would never bring up politics on this forum any more than I would religion. My comment was on the order of a Happy Holidays greeting in Dec. Politics and religion IMO, don't belong here. I'd be happy to listen to your complaints about this country and me, if you want to make it personal. But not here. You can pm me or email me if you feel the need to take it further.

Margarret


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank you, Margarret,
99% of us understood you intention and appreciated it.
HAPPY 4th of JULY !


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Margarret,

I understand the sincerety of your thread, it was meant with only good intentions.

Thank you


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

HI MARGARRET, Happy Fourth of July ......... AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD THINKS THEY REALY ARE JEALOUS . .GEORGE


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## SB_doves (Mar 18, 2006)

Happy 4th and God Bless America.... You can hate us all you want Canada. Where is The Stanley cup at?


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> It's time you folks down in the USA, got over yourselves. Sorry, but I do happen to have a LOT more respect for your country than most do in the world today, but.....try to have a little more humility and humbleness than you normally demonstrate during such times.
> 
> Just an insignificant Canadian's persective, HOWEVER, think about what your country has achieved or hasn't achieved in the last several years.


 I didn't want to come across "political", so I am responding in a lot less detail...but being a target of such remarks is just part of the cross we Americans must bear. I think it stems from the tradition of being called upon to save countries from various dictators and tyrants. And when the cry's for help are made, we don't run and hide. There is already enough of our blood on the ground at places like Normandy and the Islands surrounding Japan to allow us to keep our heads high for the next few centuries, I would think. 

If it had not been for our Nation's sons and fathers paying with their lives, quite a few of our readers would be speaking German or Japanese I would think. So if we feel just a bit proud of this experiment in America where our Republic form of government, was created of the people, by the people, and for the people...then you should just bite your tongue if you don't have anything nice to say. 

And as to the question as to what we as a Nation have achieved or not achieved, over these past years and decades....I see tens of millions of people crashing the gates of our National borders trying to get in. So whatever it is that we have here, it must be pretty special...it's just my observation, but I don't see millions of people risking their lives trying to break into the socialist utopia of Canada....


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re celebrating*

Pigeonpal2002/*Brad*, 

In respects to the citizens of a nation celebrating themselves, 

aren't we all forgetting a basic human quality? 

*Blame* is attributed to individuals, to *someone else*. 

That is one of the essential functions of elected officials: to take the blame. That is what we elect them for: to produce successful results, and take the blame for failure. They perform the function of scapegoats, and are not re-elected as punishment. 

*Credit* for good results is assumed by *everybody*.

The San Antonio Spurs (professional basketball team) recently won the national championship. Why do the fans celebrate? The spectators have done the work of supporting and cheering, but the players and members of the support team have done most of the work, supposedly. Should I celebrate? I'm from San Antone. I don't think I know the name of a single player. I don't know if a single player is a native San Antonian. (I don't usually follow sports closely). But, if I celebrate their victories, should I be criticized for it? 

When you watch a thriller movie, humans versus alien invaders or humans versus plague virus, do you feel good the human species won, or do you feel disgruntled because "the virus wasn't all that bad, killed only thirty percent of infected victims," or "the aliens were smarter, and therefore should have won"? 

And when we celebrate birthdays or the arrival of the New Year, what do we celebrate? Being alive.

One of my brothers-in-law studied physics in college, and he was a member of the physics club. I think its main function was collective beer-drinking. Every day of the year there was something to celebrate: they had a list of inventions and discoveries on hand, so they could have a reason to celebrate. No need to wait for birthdays to roll around, or the occasional public holiday.

One function of celebrations, originally, I think, was to get people together to share food and resources to get through rough times. When I came to Germany I noticed that in the cold wintertime one had very short hours of weak daylight, and long hours of darkness. Recipe for a lot of solitude in the past. People hidden in caves, cottages, little food, privation, no fresh fruits or vegetables, weakness, starvation. Come up with festivals, holidays, celebrations, something to cover everyone, Christmas, winter solstice, harvesting. Introduce group efforts, group activities, group celebrations. Even those who could contribute little because of poverty, age, handicap, sickness or lack of skill or ability could partake of the largess of others, and *SURVIVE* and *THRIVE*. 

In the long run, celebrating for whatever reason or no reason is about survival, and gratitude for life. 


An interesting, or rather funny _YouTube_ web-site video, _Dean Martin and James Stewart_, in which James Stewart discusses human propensity to take credit for the actions of others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blToNTt8DAs


*Brad*, in general you have a valid point: we shouldn't overlook mistakes, lest we not correct them. It's a bit hard, though, to lash yourself and lament with a beer in the hand of one arm, and the other arm around a good-looking woman, singing and shouting and acting deliriously happy. So we separate the two activities: one or two days a year for atonement and lamentation -- don't remember which ones they are, since I do most things right (wife vehemently disagrees), thus haven't needed them for a while -- and the rest of the year for celebration.

The Roman Empire was neither the ultimate form of government nor the answer to all of mankind's needs. Granted, neither is the United States of America: many postulate, beginning with Plato(?) that the best form of government (in terms of efficiency at least, and possibly in terms of effectiveness) is a benevolent, informed dictatorship (or monarchy, according to Plato?). Many people wanted Roman citizenship because the perceived benefits outweighed the bad. There were men who undertook twenty-five years of rowing war galleys for the benefit of Roman citizenship after their term of duty. Men who became soldiers in a Roman army for the same reason. Also, men who became slaves, signed away their freedom, for a stipulated amount of time for some end benefit. If I am not mistaken, qualifying foreigners today can join the American military for a term of service, after which they can qualify for citizenship. U.S. citizenship is granted to many, for lesser and for other reasons. Canadian citizenship was granted to Chinese from Hong Kong if they had a million (USD?) dollars to invest in Canada, at the time Hong Kong reverted to mainland Chinese governmental rule (and I am not going to get into a political discussion of National China/Taiwan (the island of Taiwan) versus the People's Republic of China (the mainland); no offense meant to any Chinese, or Chinese-Americans of Chinese descent. 

There are always some who will find the citizenship of another country more desirable than the citizenship they have, for many and varied reasons. 

In the end, we are each and every one of us individuals, ultimately answerable to ourselves for our own individual actions. We come into this world alone, as individuals (even though we may share a body or bodies as conjoined twins), and we depart from this world alone (even though we may be in the presence of others who are also departing). We can celebrate the happiness of others, but we experience only our own individual happiness, in the strictest sense. We can share a barrel of beer, but it is the individual who delights in the taste, or who chokes. Even if we haven't brewed the beer ourselves.

Larry


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## juanita (Jul 26, 2005)

I am sorry for Pigeonpal 2002 statement, I think they misunderstood the meaning and made a pubic mistake. I make little ones all the time with my spelling and so on. I have opened my mouth at the wrong time and at other times have been misunderstood too.Things have to be kept in perspective! My point now is, yes what was said was most unpolite and down right hurtful but I don't think it is the sum total of who they are. They care about helping others who need help esecially when it comes to birds. I am proud to be an American and I believe in our freedoms including freedom of speech even when someone goes hot head for moment. Don't shoot the bird because it dropped a stinky in the wrong spot is how I feel.Now I'm going to eat some left over BBQ.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

This is a difficult post for me. 

What Pigeonpal 2002 (Brad) said was unkind to all of us who live in America and who are extremely proud of that fact. 

However, some of the newer members don't know Brad like older members do and I have to speak of "that Brad". Brad was one of our moderators for several years. He was the first person to welcome me to Pigeon-life. He was a regular, consistent contributor, offering advice and compliments and understanding. He has helped me, a complete idiot when it comes to computers, understand a few things better. He has helped people post pictures. Yes, sometimes, he got his "dander" up over some posts and would speak plainly about what bothered him; but, for the most part, he is a kind, caring and compassionate person. If you will, and if you have the time, go back and read his threads/posts and you will see what I'm talking about.

Now, this "new Brad" is someone I don't know. He resigned as moderator a few months back and some of his posts have been less than desirable but, because I remember the "old Brad" I overlooked them. 

I don't know what has happened but the Brad posting now is not the one I "know" and I wish the old Brad would come back. I am so very, very sorry that it has come to him being banned.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

One thing that we celebrate in this country is "Freedom of Speech". So I believe that Brad has a right to speak his opinion, however, Margarret's thread may not have been the appropriate thread to vent those thoughts. 

In all reality Brad is just as American as we who live in the U.S., unless they have moved Canada out of the Americas. 

Brad I would be thrilled to share in any celebration that your Canada considers memorial, not because I have ever lived on Canadian soil, but because of the wonderful people that I have met that come from our neighbor country to the north. I consider you "one" of those people. If your feelings aren't mutual just have patience with us while we get through ours.

Actually we are celebrating our separation from England, but none of our U.K. members have complained.

Once again today I will co-sign Maggie's thread. It describes my friend Brad.


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## SkyofAngels (Jun 28, 2007)

How sad that a good natured greeting has to turn into a worldwide political debate. Can't we all just enjoy the beautiful world that the lord has given us instead of trying to tear each other apart?  
I am a newcomer and I don't know the "Old Brad" or even the "New Brad" I can only assume there must be some underlying personal reason why someone who was kind to his fellow members would suddenly lash out at the very people he has helped and shared with. I pray that the lord will have mercy on him and help him with whatever personal turmoil he is going through. I hope he can find help so that he has a better outlet than taking his own personal problems out at other people or countries.  
So to our American members I wish you a happy 4th(well actually I am posting a day late so a happy 5th) And I wish all of our members happiness lets enjoy ourselves and the life we have cause we only have one and stop worrying about things we have no control over and the opinions of others, Its not worth it. Like my Momma always says,"Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair it gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere"


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

SkyofAngels,
Thank you for sharing.
Your Momma is a wise person.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

SkyofAngels said:


> How sad that a good natured greeting has to turn into a worldwide political debate. Can't we all just enjoy the beautiful world that the lord has given us instead of trying to tear each other apart?
> I am a newcomer and I don't know the "Old Brad" or even the "New Brad" I can only assume there must be some underlying personal reason why someone who was kind to his fellow members would suddenly lash out at the very people he has helped and shared with. I pray that the lord will have mercy on him and help him with whatever personal turmoil he is going through. I hope he can find help so that he has a better outlet than taking his own personal problems out at other people or countries.
> So to our American members I wish you a happy 4th(well actually I am posting a day late so a happy 5th) And I wish all of our members happiness lets enjoy ourselves and the life we have cause we only have one and stop worrying about things we have no control over and the opinions of others, Its not worth it. *Like my Momma always says,"Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair it gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere"*



LOVE your Momma's quote, SkyofAngels! I have written her words down in my PT notebook!

Tell your Momma THANK YOU!! 

Shi


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2007)

everyone knows that momma knows best


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

LokotaLoft said:


> everyone knows that momma knows best


THANK YOU, LokotaLoft! I hope a couple of the members (and you know who you are!) take heed!

*I AM A MOMMA!!*    

Shi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I'll put my two cents in here with the rest. I know that Margaret wouldn't have intentionally posted something that she thought divisive and her thread came from a genuine place of well wishing.

I also can understand why folks from a different country might get upset 
w/the US specifically and generally even though the US has done some amazing things for the citizens of the world. I guess it goes without saying that when the sun shines brightly, it will cast a more distinct shadow. I'm sorry that the US has a shadow and seems at times oblivious to it. Having a shadow, though, is part of life, just check in with Carl Jung on that one....

In general, the concept of banning is a difficult one for me to embrace, though tactically I understand the need for it as a tool on a site such as this where folks show up and don't always participate in respectful ways towards their fellow members. Afterall, why should one person have to follow the rules while another seems to ignore them? Still, forever is a long time and perhaps this is why 'banning' someone is something that just doesn't sit
well for me.

I for one will miss Brad and miss seeing him on the forum here. I wish it hadn't come to this but it has. Good luck to you Brad, I wish you and your
birds good health and happiness.

fp


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## KIPPY (Dec 18, 2003)

Just curious, can you unban?

Does someone here converse with Brad? Does he see how his post can ruffle feathers? Does he even feel bad?

I really try not to hold grudges and try to unload negative feelings. Is there anyway of just sweeping this under the pigeon mat and start over?

Brad, I'm sorry for lashing out at you.

I'm feeling bad about my post and just wanted to apologize.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Kippy, I don't believe you have anything to reproach yourself for.

What was intended as a harmless and friendly thread for greetings, on what was a celebratory day for Americans, was turned into something less pleasant by someone who had been around way long enough to know better. That's about the sum of it.

Que sera, sera

John


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## judifur (Apr 27, 2007)

*good grief..*

Drama in the pigeon forum. Strange...

Felt I had to comment. Kinda not sure what to say. I'm here stuck in Germany, Feeling in limbo. 

Hope everyone had a happy 4th anyway, My birthday was the 6th. w00t!

-Judi


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

judifur said:


> Drama in the pigeon forum. Strange...
> 
> Felt I had to comment. Kinda not sure what to say. I'm here stuck in Germany, Feeling in limbo.
> 
> ...


Well, Judi, like many another forum, newsgroup, etc. we sometimes get spammers, trolls and nutters - and people with issues who just lash out verbally for no reason we can comprehend.

Things get sorted out sooner or later

John


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