# Poops with blood



## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I hope I find someone awake in the forum, here in Belgium it is the middle of the night, no way to call a vet...
I found a youngster in the city, unable to fly and very small and thin.
I put him in a warm place and gave him some Kaytee and rehydrating fluid.
Now he is pooping blood.
Does anyone know what would be the cause of his? Worms? Severe emaciation?
Myriam, Belgium


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Blood in poops*

Hello Myriam,

I'm also awake for a minute or so. No experience with blood in poops.

I've searched under "blood in poops." Still looking.

Do you have any vitamin K? It is a natural enzyme produced by the body for blood clotting. It is recommended for people nd animals who have ingested rat poison (in the form of an anti-coagulant). 

I have some, but no practical way of getting it to you. Also, I think you need other meds, perhaps others are more important for whatever is affecting your pigeon.

Also, Pidgey checks in pretty often, even in the middle of his night. 

Good luck, 

Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Thank you for the quick answer, Larry.
I also googled it in Dutch and the only thing to come out are worms... but where do pigeons get worms in a city? He might be poisoned. I can get vitamine K tomorrow morning, if he is still alive... his condition is very bad.
PS. I got your mail, still did not have/make time to answer  . You probably know the reason: I have a pigeon shelter with around 700 rescued pigeons and nobody to help. Sometimes a little spare time to read the posts here and in Geman forums. And exceptionnally a few minutes to write something, mostly at night. Time to sleep now, tomorrow 700 hungry beaks are waiting for me early in the morning.
Myriam, Pigeon shelter Lapalomatriste, Belgium


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Myriam,

This PT post is pretty good

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19356&highlight=blood+poops

Jazaroo says 
"The most common causes as you probably know are, worms, Coccidiosis and infection."
(but look at post so nothing is out of context).

It has been wet and rainy and very cool for this time of year in Cologne (and Belgium). (Weather info for Americans, if it has any relevance). I have seen some feral pigeons with lots of urine in their poops, and yesterday one, a youngster, with some undigested seeds in the feces. Usually dark green poops, little or no urates, very liquid. With the wet weather suspect intestinal bugs. Might be wrong, however. 

Larry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Myrpalom,
Will you describe the blood? Is it specks of blood, gushes of blood?


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

My english!!!!!!!!!!! It is like someone who is wounded and bleeding (but not so much of course) mixed with dark brown poop.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There is a type of worm called a "threadworm" which is technically "Capillaria" for which the disease condition is called "Capillariasis" that will do that. Is the blood bright red blood, very dark blood, blood mixed with feces or what? There are other conditions where they can bleed internally like a really bad Coccidiosis or Enteritis. If the bird's really thin (emaciated) then it really is a tough battle to win. Worming is very hard on them for one thing and other medications can be too. If you could get your hands on Levamisol (you might find it as L-Ripercol there) and Enrofloxacin (Baytril), it might be good. Another antibiotic possibility would be a Trimethoprim/Sulfa combination drug like Bactrim, Cotrim, etc.

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I would think either Coccidia or worms.
700 is one heck of a lot of pigeons. Wow. Bless your heart.


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

It is bright red blood, mixed with dark brown poop.
I have Baytril. Better not to deworm an emaciated bird, if I understand well.
Anyway, the dewormer I have (AVICAS) is not for capillaria.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Myriam,

I see Pidgey and others reading your thread. Good, professional help is on the way.

How do pigeons in a city get worms?

Speculation: mosquitoes + dogs + dog poops + grass + pigeons eating grass seeds.

Young pigeon, forced to eat leftovers after dominant birds get first chance at everything. Little experience at what is good to eat. Has to learn from watching adults. Lots of young birds don't make it. Wet weather, seeds going bad. Bread, pizza, pita scraps getting fungus. 

Sounds strange, but I would worry if birds and dogs and animals and humans didn't have parasites. We need to keep up our immunity by constant and frequent exposures by way of mini-doses delivered by mosquitoes, scratches, occasional bad bit of food. Living in a sterilized environment sets someone up to be knocked over by a feather, as the native Americans and Polynesians were when they first encountered Europeans and had no resistance to diseases which had mild effects on Europeans. 

Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Mistake. I just checked and Avicas is effective against capillaria.
Should I give it a try ? If I don't do anything, he will die anyway.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Start the Baytril and hope for the best. Does the respiration rate seem very high (compared to a pigeon of equal age)? That's one indicator that can tell a lot. If the blood loss is really significant, the bird can get anemic and the respiration rate keeps may keep rising.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Avicas is Febantel, which metabolizes into Fenbendazole which is Panacur. It's a tricky call. I'd give him a partial dose, limited to be according to his relative size.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you know what he weighs?

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Pidgey,

If she has any *garlic* (_look_, _knoflook_, in Niederlandisch) or garlic oil, would that help control worms and not overwhelm the bird?

If I eat too much relatively fresh (not too cooked) garlic (four or five cloves) in a spaghetti sauce or on a pizza, it tends to dry my sinuses and mucous membranes, have a dehydrating effect on me. 

Larry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Just my opinion, but I would start the Baytril and skip the worming until the bird is stronger.


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Charis said:


> 700 is one heck of a lot of pigeons. Wow. Bless your heart.


Since 1992, I rescue wounded, handicapped or sick city pigeons. Pigeon loving people brought me pigeons from everywhere in Belgium, from Paris, from Germany... I have many pigeons from Cologne here, Larry I also take in lost and unwanted racers, and in Belgium, if they don't fly well, they are always unwanted. I never have the heart to release them in this dangerous world after they recovered from their sickness or their hunger.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Pidgey,

if she doesn't get a chance to weigh him, for whatever reason, i would *guess* he weighs 220 to 250 grams (280 grams = 10 ounces, info for other Americans). 

Most emaciated birds I rescued were 200 to 250 grams. 

Adult feral city male pigeons 320 to 350. Weighed one large freshly-run-over male at 400 grams. Adult females usually around 280 to 300 grams. 

Just my observations, in general. 

Maybe this info useful, though generalized and not dealing with the specific bird in question.

Larry


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I would give him lots of fluids, heating pad, sulfa and baytril. There is a natural antiwormer that you can try, Chapparel tea, if you have it you can mix it with formula or give it straight.
Panacur might be bit too much for such a sick bird.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Pidgey,
> 
> If she has any *garlic* (_look_, _knoflook_, in Niederlandisch) or garlic oil, would that help control worms and not overwhelm the bird?
> 
> ...


That's a source of contention amongst several of us, Larry. I maintain that due to the fact that there is no question that garlic causes Heinz Body Hemolytic Anemia in many animals, it may be contraindicated in clearly anemic presentations. Other than that, I don't have a problem with it except where people wish to rely on it solely and in place of more standard medications and without monitoring for effect.

Pidgey


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

His respiration is normal. But he is VERY thin. I guess no more then 150 gram, and very small, the size of a baby, but he is obviously a juvenile. And so cute and sweet, looked into my eyes and put his beak between my fingers. And very weak, can barely stand on his feet. Better not to give Febantel in this moment.
I'll give him some Baytril and go to sleep, hoping yo find him alive tomorrow. If he is, I'll post a pic, and keep you updated.
Thank you everybody for your help.
Myriam


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, the Febantel isn't as bad as the Panacur per se--it's a bit safer. It's a tough call, folks, because if the bird is bleeding due to Capillaria then it's the right thing to do. If the bird isn't, then it's wrong. Without the benefit of microscopic examination of the feces, it's just plain out-&-out a Catch-22. I think you're more likely to see frank blood due to Capillaria than Enteritis so that's the way I'd tend to guess. Could be wrong, can't know without a test and time.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Make sure he stays warm and hydrated tonight, then.

Pidgey


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Pigeons from Cologne*

Myriam,

We might be asking you to take two more pigeons, a non-flying female with mostly-paralyzed right wing, *Osk-gurr*, and her new-found mate, our two-year-old rescued-as-a-28-day-old-paratyphoid and hand-raised* Wieteke*. 

They laid one pair of eggs, but Osk-gurr stopped sitting on them when we had to move the nest to the atelier. Then Wieteke left her for a week to guard his home turf. They are more settled in now, after another week together.

The lady re-habber in Witten, Christa G., who was going to take them after her vacation, had a tumor on her neck and has been in the hospital. Everything has been put on hold. She was also moving into a new house from a recently-deceased pigeon person, with a loft for 170 pigeons, and she has only thirty pigeons of her own. We haven't been in contact with her lately, to give her time to recover. 

Larry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There is a safer herbal wormer that Treesac& her Rehabber recommend, I think it's Chaparel Tea. 

fp


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

*Sad*

I went to check on him, he died wile we were discussing. I am so sad I found him too late. He was too far gone to be saved.


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Larry_Cologne said:


> Myriam,
> 
> We might be asking you to take two more pigeons, a non-flying female with mostly-paralyzed right wing, *Osk-gurr*, and her new-found mate, our two-year-old rescued-as-a-28-day-old-paratyphoid an dhand-raised* Wieteke*.
> 
> They are welcome, Larry. We'll talk it over in private emails, I'll write you as soon as possible.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, at least he got one good last nuzzle in. Maybe it was an internal hemorrhage from a traumatic injury. There certainly wasn't anything you could do, bless your heart.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Myriam, I'm sorry you lost this one, but bless you for all you do for pigeons.
Seven hundred is alot of work for one person, you no doubt are an angel....

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

At least he died in loving hands.
Bless you, Myriam.

Reti


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Poor little thing. I'm so sorry.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Myriam,

I am sorry you lost him, but he did get that one last nuzzle in, as Pidgey says, and I think that meant a lot to the little one.

Thanks for your offer to take in our pigeons. I am going to give Christ some time before I contact her. I think our pigeons should spend a bit more time together, alone, before being moved again. Have to look at the timing according to what is best for them and their relationship.

Will be in touch. We both need to get some sleep now. 4:22 A.M. here in central Europe.

Larry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Myriam. I have only just logged on.

Can I send you some Moxidectin Plus? It is safe and treats capillaria and tapeworm. I will never use anything with Fenbendazole in it.

It worries me that you have so many pigeons dependent on you alone. Is Monsur there for emergencies?

Cynthia


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hallo Cynthia,
In this moment, there is really nobody to help me. Monsur has a hell of a job, works very late... If I would be in very big trouble, illness for example, he could help, but not completely take over. I tried to find volunteers or people working at (very) low cost. One student showed up last summer in august, and that's it...


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I googled Moxidectin in Dutch and I found it for horses, cats and dogs. Nothing for birds.
You could send me some, if you think it is safer then Febantel.
Thank you, Cynthia.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Myriam,

I'm so sorry to hear the little one died. I just now came on the forum.

The Chapparell is a very good wormer to use, without any harsh chemicals. If you have any health food stores in the area, they would carry it.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

myrpalom said:


> I googled Moxidectin in Dutch and I found it for horses, cats and dogs. Nothing for birds.
> You could send me some, if you think it is safer then Febantel.
> Thank you, Cynthia.



Myriam, both Ivermectin and Moxidectin are in the Avermectin family,
and Moxidectin is thought to be safer than Ivermectin w/the same or
better effectiveness. I believe the Moxidectin plus has the added
component of Praziquantel. The MSDS for Moxidectin is linked to 
the name under the diagram of Moxidectin.

http://www.aaawebmaster.com/canary/disease.htm

And here's a link to an interview w/Colin Walker, scroll to the bottom:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?ei...plus+birds+bird&d=F27aPernOuHZ&icp=1&.intl=us

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I just logged in, too. Bless you, Myriam, for trying to help this poor baby, and for all the rescue work you do. I'm so sorry he didn't make it. 

-Cathy


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