# HELP!! Leg-



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

My YB's leg is ripped apart at the joint completely. He had a U-nail stuck in his band and apparently ripped his leg apart at the knee. The joint is completely separated and the leg was connected only by skin.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alice, 

That sounds awful Is it bleeding a lot? Is the bottom half completely seperated from the top half?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

If it's bleeding you're going to have to rinse the wound with saline, then a hydrogen peroxide/water solution and then apply some kind of bandaging around the joint as best you can and to keep the area stable for now. 

Can you post some pictures for Pidgey to see?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

It's done bleeding now, top half held together by skin. No feeling in any of it.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

My dad stuck the joint back in so I only have pictures of it that way.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I see....you said it was only being held on by the skin. Were the tendons and veins severed as well?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

The tendons are, I don't know about the veins. The foot's cold.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

That sounds nasty and horrible then. I'm sorry, I really don't have the expertise to help you any further than I have. The foot will likely be lost no matter what but try to rinse it out with saline and clean it up a bit. Rebandage it up as best you can for now. Keep the squab in a box and warm in case of shock. You should prepare a rehydration solution, because of the blood loss. 

You will likely need to see a vet and have the remaining tissues disconnected and the lower portion of the leg removed.

Post whatever pictures you can and hopefully the bird will be ok.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

He's not a squab. I don't know much, but it looks like it'll need to be cut off. We just finished all the stuff you said except rehydrating which I'll do now. How can I keep him from moving around?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> How can I keep him from moving around?



Put him in a fairly small padded box and keep him in a darker area after your rehydrate the pigeon. Make sure he's warm, which shouldn't be a problem for you. Sorry, I thought it was a squab when you said YB....still the protocols are the same.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

He's in a padded box in my room in the dark. He drank the solution.

His leg is purple now, what does that mean?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I mean his _foot_ is purple- I can't see the leg.
Thank you for your help, Brad.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, purple would be good, actually, as it indicates that there's something going on in the foot (circulation). Did it bleed very much (was there a huge pool of blood)?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How far apart were the bone ends at the worst?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well,* purple would be good, actually,* as it indicates that there's something going on in the foot (circulation). Did it bleed very much (was there a huge pool of blood)?
> 
> Pidgey


 I thought that, it's not very cold now, either. There is no blood in the loft except for a little bitty bit that we found where apparently he got caught. His foot was totally covered in blood but I don't see that it actually bled a whole lot.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

And exactly which joint are we talking about:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

The part that connects the tibiotarsus to the tatsometatarsus. It is completely separated, the top part was what was sticking out and the end was like a rectangular circle? Nothing on it, just plain bone. When I got him in the loft the bottom half was hanging and turned around pointing completely backwards.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You see, if the only thing left connected were skin, that should mean that he severed the bulk of it and that should mean enough blood for the bird to pass out. Now, whether the bird would die from that or just go down so far (when the circulating blood volume gets too low, the body tends to shut down the blood to the extremities utilizing valves in the vascular system) and then come back out after having shut down the leg is always a close call.

Anyhow, it almost always looks worse than it is. We're going to try and hope for the best here and probably splint the leg with masking tape (with a little gauze around the wound itself, put the bird on Baytril and keep a close watch for a few days. We might construct some interesting stuff but let's do the towel-donut deal and see how it goes.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

It was ripped on the inside of the leg. I have pictures of the outside once the bone was stuck back in.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Alice, 

You're welcome for my assistance, it wasn't much. I see Pidgey is on the case now so you're in good hands.

Good luck and best wishes for you and this little one.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> You see, if the only thing left connected were skin, that should mean that he severed the bulk of it and that should mean enough blood for the bird to pass out. Now, whether the bird would die from that or just go down so far (when the circulating blood volume gets too low, the body tends to shut down the blood to the extremities utilizing valves in the vascular system) and then come back out after having shut down the leg is always a close call.
> 
> Anyhow, it almost always looks worse than it is. We're going to try and hope for the best here and probably splint the leg with masking tape (with a little gauze around the wound itself, put the bird on Baytril and keep a close watch for a few days. We might construct some interesting stuff but let's do the towel-donut deal and see how it goes.
> 
> Pidgey


 He was totally calm through the whole thing. He ate (that wasn't bad, was it?!) and drank afterward. He didn't seem faint from loss of blood. My poor bird, it must've hurt so bad!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Then, essentially, it was the top of the ankle that he messed up. Well, in this particular case, let's be very sparing with any topical antibiotics (or not at all--just use plain water) and see if we can save it from the wound down. You'll probably just wrap the wound with a straight bandaid as best you can but we'll do that big splint thing with 2" wide masking tape all the way down to where the phalanges (toes) spread out. I'll go find the illustration link.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've got a picture that shows a parrot that got its leg stuck in a hanging toy ring and had chewed the leg off within the 30 minutes since the owner had last looked in on him. They're really not as sensitive to some things as we are.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Then, essentially, it was the top of the ankle that he messed up. Well, in this particular case, let's be very sparing with any topical antibiotics (or not at all--just use plain water) and see if we can save it from the wound down. You'll probably just wrap the wound with a straight bandaid as best you can but we'll do that big splint thing with 2" wide masking tape all the way down to where the phalanges (toes) spread out. I'll go find the illustration link.
> 
> Pidgey


 He's all wrapped up and has a lot of antibiotic ointment on it? What about the dosage on the Baytril?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I've got a picture that shows a parrot that got its leg stuck in a hanging toy ring and had chewed the leg off within the 30 minutes since the owner had last looked in on him. They're really not as sensitive to some things as we are.
> 
> Pidgey


Ugh. But I guess it's not all a bad thing.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> The part that connects the tibiotarsus to the tatsometatarsus. It is completely separated, the top part was what was sticking out and the end was like a* rectangular circle*? Nothing on it, just plain bone. When I got him in the loft the bottom half was hanging and turned around pointing completely backwards.


Like a barrel on its side.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It can be a bad thing--sometimes if it'd hurt enough, they wouldn't struggle so much and do so much damage. We'll lay there for a few days if necessary before we chew our limbs off.

Well, anyhow, get the antibiotic ointment off of there and wash it off very carefully. Make sure he can't struggle. Wash it with cool water and then get a bandaid around it. What we're trying to do is keep the antibiotic ointment from messing with the vascular tissue that's left at this point. Circulation is everything right now.

Then, when you've got it clean, get a bandaid around it with the gauze pad inward. It'd be nice if you had one of those shiny kind that don't stick to wounds very much.

Next, we've got to stabilize the leg like this:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=108665&postcount=14

...and then make sure that he doesn't put any weight on it for awhile (several days). We'll have to work on that because I'd like him in a sling in the worst way. I'll go fetch some pictures of that but Phil's recent deal is probably going to be the easiest and best.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, hopefully it was more like an open dislocation and all the tendons weren't really severed--just going along the piece of skin that was left. Only time will tell. If they did sever or are otherwise rendered useless, then we're eventually going to shoot for immobilizing the foot into a somewhat natural position that will allow him to stand and walk on it a bit. That's... uhh... in the hopes that the circulation is enough to keep it.

I'll get to the Baytril in a minute. It's not critical at this second.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I've got to go buy band-aids so I'll be back in a few mins...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ, Pidgey, 


My recent Sling method, is made from one of the small size White Towells I buy by the Dozen at Loew's Hardware Superstore...

The image I just made to illustrate it, is made on a sheet of paper, and the darkened ovals represent areas of aperature for the Bird's Thighs, and Neck/upper Crop.

However, I have found that the Head/Neck hole is not usually needed...but if it is, one merely slips their Head and Neck through and then that area of cloth is in effect folded back on itself also, or at least on the sides it is.

Behing the Thigh holes, one folds the material over on itself, underneath, about an inch from the end, and this allows their Vent to be clear for pooping over the edge of the fabric, and for being double fabric there, it will stretch less and give more support.


The Thigh holes of course must be spaced for the Bird's comfort and underbody, and be large enough for their Thighs to go through without constriction or tension from the cloth pulling.


My little fast sketch is pretty crude, and of course you must use your eye to defer to the individual Bird's size...but the Towells I use are about 12 X 18 inches, and medium-light Terrycloth.

Regular 'Office Max' medium-large Spring Clips, suspended by String, then grip the edges of the brought-up-around-the-Bird Cloth, and keep both sides pinched together to suspend the Bird...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Alice can't see Webshots because their connection won't allow it so hopefully you've got enough space here on Pigeon-Talk to post some pictures of your bird in the sling so that she can see it (she can see pics on Pigeon-Talk). Thanks for jumping in so quickly.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, I'm going to assume that this is a 400 gram bird. So, going with a 15 milligram per kilogram BID dosing strategy for 5 days, it'll work out like this:

15 x (400/1000) = 6 milligrams twice a day. 

6 milligrams x 2 (doses per day) x 5 days = 60 milligrams total.

60 milligrams (assume microliters*) @ 10% solution = 600 microliters or 0.6 milliliters...

...so, put 0.6 cc's (same as a milliliter) of the 10% Enroxil that you have in 10 cc's (milliliters again) of water in a small bottle and dose him one full cc or ml, twice a day for the next five days. I don't know that you have to but keep the bottle in the fridge for the duration.

Pidgey

*A microliter is a millionth of a liter or a thousandth of a thousandth of a liter. A milliliter is, literally a thousandth of a liter. In volumetric terms, a microliter is thousandth of that. A "cc" is a "cubic centimeter" or exactly a milliliter. A liter is also 1000 cubic centimeters or the volume of a 10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm cube. A gram is the weight of one cubic centimeter of water at ?20? degrees C. Anyhow, if you're talking a medicine that's usually metered out volumetrically instead of by actual weight (as in liquid stuff like liquid Baytril) then a milligram is actually a microliter. If the specific gravity of the medical is equal to water (1.0) then the terms would actually be exactly interchangeable. It's more likely that it's not a perfect match but it's also likely that it's not divergent enough to matter.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks, Phil.

Pidgey, we put the bandaid on first and then the gauze?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I originally said bandaid because it already had gauze on it. Look at the pad on the bandaid--if it's that shiny stuff, it'd probably be better than real gauze (which would stick to the wound but that's only a later nuisance--not a medical problem). If the pad is like real cotton gauze, then forget the bandaid and just use a little gauze and tape.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

We put the bandaid on it but it didn't hold it in so he put tape on top of the bandaid?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, whatever it takes to hold it in place. You're about to set the ankle at a 70 to 90 degree angle in such a way that it's not going anywhere. We just want the bandaid there to keep the masking tape from adhering to the wound per se.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That is, the bandaid isn't going to provide any structural strength whatsoever--just covering.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

It's about at a 60 degree angle?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just make it look like the picture in this post as well as possible:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=108665&postcount=14

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Although straighter might be a little better as it might allow the circulatory system more slack to work with.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

So is this fine? I'm not sure we could keep the joint together if it were bent more.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, well, sure. You're the only one that can see it so do what feels best.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, is there a large open area that's not covered with skin?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Ok, then I've got to try the sling now. I feel sick  my poor little blue bar.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well it's like a tear going from body to toe about this long ------ and when you put it together there is an area about the size of 0 that is open. It's black, hollow, no flesh and you can see a little (as in small) bone there.


Edit: It's not a tear as in the rest of it's connected, it's that that is how long it is where the leg ripped apart. It's connected on the outside of the leg.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, it'd be nice to pull that together but I betcha' that's not going to work well at this point. Here's the deal--he may definitely lose the tarsometatarsus and the phalanges and we're going to give him the chance to keep them. It's more likely than not that it'll never work properly again but if we can keep the flesh viable, we can fashion something to keep it serviceable. If it dies, then we won't be any the worse off for removing it later so it's worth a shot.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Okey.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

BTW, we cut the band off so it wouldn't bother him.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi AZ, Pidgey,
> 
> 
> My recent Sling method, is made from one of the small size White Towells I buy by the Dozen at Loew's Hardware Superstore...
> ...


 How do you keep the cloth folded under? A paper clip? 
And what do you attach the string to?


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, Pidgey, so much-- what would I do without you?!


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> How do you keep the cloth folded under? A paper clip?
> And what do you attach the string to?


 And I only have 1 medium-large clip and 3 little ones. Will that hold his weight?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm sure that the metal will handle the stress--it's a matter of whether they would bend open, I suppose. You may have to tape them closed.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ, 


Here are some images of the Sling set-up...


The behind the Vent 'fold' just folds simply, lengthwise, so when you pull the two side of the Cloth up around the Bird, to pinch them together with the Clips, it stays folded nicely all by itself...( actually THIS image is not showing that! In this image the cloth goes father back behind the Vent, and I had 'just' got him set up and had forgot to fold it under lengthwise...)

These images are from when I may have been useing the Head-Neck-Crop 'hole', but since then I mererly fold 'that' whole portion under also, so it stays put nicely by itself too, when the sides are pulled up to meet together above the Bird...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Okey. Well, I'm having trouble trying to figure out exactely how to make it all work. He doesn't like it and when I got him in it he struggled to get out...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I use the same kind of Clips to attatch easily to the underside og the Cage's top wires also...and String goes between the upper Clip and it's lower Clip.


This way too, to get him out Sling-and-Bird together, I just undo the two clips on the Cloth, and carry him out in the sling...and the reverse, to put him back in...I just get him set up in the sling again on my lap, bring the sides of the cloth up and together, and hold him in the cage in his Sling then, with one hand, as I use the other free hand to re-attatch the two Clips to the Cloth...


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi AZ,
> 
> 
> Here are some images of the Sling set-up...
> ...


 Oh, thanks, it makes more sense now.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Another view...him sleeping in this case...

But it shows the Thigh 'holes' pretty well...

Because their Body is 'deep', the distance between the holes for their Thighs must be wide enough for the Holes to center nicely when the cloth is holding their weight and being stretched more or less around their underbody...

This image shows a not-much of a fold behind the Vent, and it should have been folded about an inch worth...I was still getting things tuned in when these initial images were taken...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Actually, these images are from when I was already not useing the Head-Neck-Crop 'hole'...

Far as I know, if...'if' one gets it fairly comfortable, they will not tend to struggle much...the position their body ends up being in, should resmble their sort of normal standing stance pretty much, if a little lower maybe at the front...

But if it offends their fine sense of Balance, they will wiggle like all get-out to shake and squirm out of it, for sure...and it seems to me, that 'that' is most of the issue with whether they will get along allright being in a Sling - their position and disposition must not offend their normal sense of balance.

It takes a little fussing to arrive at what will work, as for their comfort, in that regard and also in regard to how the cloth needs to slightly stretch so no place is bearing undue weight...

Their Weight needs to be borne of course along the underside which is just forward of their vent, to just around the upper area of their keel...with the Thighs merely sticking through the side holes with no binding or twnsion 'there'.

Then, once set up with a nice little elevated Seed Bowl, even tilted toward them somewhat...and offered Water every now and then by holding a water Bowl for them...they tend to settle down into a sort of bored, day dreaming time, with occasional episodes of small squirming to find some more comfortable nuance or other...

The actual part which is under them then, is only about six inches wide or so, front-to-back...and the Clips in my method here, clip on to the vertical front and rear 'sides' of the symetrically paralell Cloth above him...and this way it is easy to adjust the Clips to bring each end of him a little more up, or down, to arrive at a poise he can put up with and find comfortable or tolerable enough to settle down in...



Good luck..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...the actual, casual reality it ended up being...two clips attatching to the Cage top undeside, and two Clips attatching to the fore and aft portions of the Sling...

This is a real-time Image, taken just now...showing the whole...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

This is more of an open 'Hammock' variation, which also is nice for them if they do not wiggle too much...


Same piece of Cloth with the Leg Holes, and his Legs of course are sticking through and dangleing...

Four Spring-Clips for the Sling, one at each 'corner' would be the best for this set-up...but I just had the two and sort of balanced it, and it worked well anyway...


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I still can't get it to work. I think the thigh holes aren't proper. May I send you a pic so that maybe you can tell me how to fix it?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sure...

[email protected]

Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks, I'm sending it now...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I made the Thigh-Holes about 3-1/2 inches from the long edge of the roughly 18 X 12 inch Towell...and, so they were centered in their way...

Probably, that is all one needs really, as a Head-Neck Hole would tend to make for a much warmer Sling, and it is Summer afterall...and I know initially, my Bird was kind of warmer than he would have liked when I was useing that part of it, so I just stopped having his Head and neck go through that hole, and I just folded that part under lengthwise also...this being about a vive inch wide part being folded unde lengthwise...


Phil


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ,


Pic came through...

Uhhhhh...you want to make sure that the area between the Thigh Holes is just 'right' so none of it is pulling up against the inside of his Thigh there...so, their spacing, per the actual Bird's curved underside there, is crucial in it's way, for it to be comfortable...

The Holes only need to be about the diameter of say a Quarter or so...or a tiny bit more...

And, the long side of the Cloth-Towell, which will be going under his Vent...if you make the Thigh Holes about 3-1/2 or four inches in from that long edge, you can then make a roughly inch and a half or so lengthwise fold which re-inforces it in a way by being doubled like that, for that area, as well as keeps it just far enough 'in' on it's folded edge, for his Vent to be un-obstructed...

When you pull the two ends up on each side, you want to sort of let the tension of the Cloth adjust to his Body, in a way where the Cloth might be uneven at it's brought-together 'top' areas...then attatch the Clips to suit how it all sags and or fits his weight evenly...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

OK, I remade it with another towel. And the thighs fit right but I haven't tried hanging it yet (that when he struggles)-- but what about the back fold? I don't understand how to fix it where he can poop.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...another view...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ,

The Sling arrangement varies a little time to time...

I take him out in the sling...then I take him out of the Sling, several times a day, and sometimes when I put him back, the phone is ringing or someone is at the Door or whatever and I do not get it as neat as possible, but I double check it regardless for comfort and poise...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I can't get it to work...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How are you suspending it?


Do you have the hefty 'Clips' like I do? Or...?


They will stuggle a little usually 'as' one is getting them into it.


Now, when I go to get my present one into his Sling, I lay the sling across my legs just behind my knees as I sit in a lowish chair...

And I lay the Sling then, so the Sling's Thigh-Holes are just at the inside edge of each of my behind my knee area...and away from me...and I gently gather the Toes of one of his Feet and push his Leg through, then I do his other Foot and Leg, and I nestle his Body into it then, him facing me this way, and being as it is just layed across my knees like this, it sags just about right for him to fit well...I finesse the fit a little with the 'sag'...then...

So, at this point he is more or less 'in' his Sling, between my knees, facing me...and settled in somewhat into the Sling in a natural sag there with his weight...

I then bring up the two side areas by their ends, finesse a little for adjustment, checking the Thighs and making sure the Legs are all the way through and easy...and I lift the3 held-toether sides of the folded Cloth, and 'up' he goes, 'in' his Sling, to have the string dangleing Clips attatched in the Cage.


Otherwise, I imagine it would be tough getting them into it...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Here...a regular, smallish, medium-weight
Terrycloth Towell...about 12 inches wide, and
about 18 inches long...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...fold along the long edges...

One fold over at about 1 - 1/2 inches...and the
other side, at about 4 inches worth.

This leaves about a 1 inch strip of single layer
cloth, which will be
about an inch-and-a-half in from the 'short' side,
makin a gap between the folded edges...where the
Thigh Holes will go.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...decide about how far apart to make the Thigh
Holes ( Likely, their Centers will be about four
inches apart ) ...and make them each about the
same distance
in from the end, and so they are even...and make
them 'in' the roughly one inch space of single
layer material, between the
respective folded long sides which are double
thickness material...

I have set two Quarters to represent possible
spaceing...and location...

This is it...!

...just lay this just as you see it, or flip it
over if you want, either way is the same in
function of course...

And just lay it
across your knees as you sit...have youe knees
just about as far apart as he is wide...and gently
get one then
the others of his feet and Legs through the Thigh
Holes, and let him lay there between your knees
like that, facing toward you...so when you start
out, the Thigh Holes are away from you.

Then merely bring the two ends together above him
and lift, and make sure his Legs are all the way
through...and finesse the comfort for him...and
then walk over to his Cage or as may be, and Clip
the brought together wideish ends to something, so
his Sling is holding him up...

Probably I set the 'uarters' too far apart somewhat...and of course one would not want the cloth between his Legs to be too wide or it would be pulling up against the insides of his thighs once his weight is in it...mine is in his Sling right now and I cannot easily measure the distance I made it, but it was just right the first try, whatever it was...I made a lucky guess..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh, wow, thanks Phil! He's in the sling now, I got it to work this morning (last night I fell asleep holding him.. I didn't mean to, but he was comfortable and fell asleep and I guess I just followed suit. Whenever it was that I woke up, I put him in the donut hole thing till morning) but I'm going to redo it all like you explained just to make sure that he really is comfortable. 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

His leg looks the same as last night. It keeps going from cold to not cold (not hot or warm, just not cold). It is still purple. There is constant fresh blood on the bottom part of the leg just before the foot. What does that mean? What can I do about it? It appears that there is a hole there from the nail and that that is where the blood is actually coming from... 

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ,


Well, even 'simple' things can be so hard to explain in words, I guess because they are not simple at all untill one has become familar and praticed with them..!

I know I had thought of this Sling method, all-at-once, then improved it a little once I was trying it.

I think it is a good design since it allows anyone to make one on short notice, and it works well.


Hmmmm...

If he is bleeding down well below the injury proper, then that might be a good thing in fact...and my guess, is that if the amount of Blood being lost 'there' , if it is in fat well below the injury site proper...if that amount of Blood is tiny, just let it bleed, within reason, since that is encouraging blood flow through the upper and lower area...which will nourish repair/regeneraiton of the various little vessles and so on of the higher injury site.

If the amount of Blood being lost seems like it is too much for the Bird's safety, then I suppose one could apply a little Corn Starch and or dab at it with a Styptic Pencil from one's Shaving Kit ( does anyone still use these?) or stick a little bit of Toilet Paper on it as one does for small Shaving nicks...


Anyway, Thigh-Holes - just make sure there is a little surround of slightly open area of the Hole on the inside of his Thighs, because then you know the cloth is not binding there against his inner Thighs as he has his weight in the Sling...


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi AZ,
> If he is bleeding down well below the injury proper, then that might be a good thing in fact...and my guess, is that if the amount of Blood being lost 'there' , if it is in fat well below the injury site proper...if that amount of Blood is tiny, just let it bleed, within reason, since that is encouraging blood flow through the upper and lower area...which will nourish repair/regeneraiton of the various little vessles and so on of the higher injury site.
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


 Blood and water. I went to look at it and the front side of his leg has water (puss??) running down it- a lot, and it's coming from underneath the bandage. 
I'm going to leave the little cut because it doesn't appear to be too much blood loss. It has a drop of fresh, thick blood on top of the hole right now so isn't running.

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

He is bleeding _a lot_ from underneath the bandage.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How much is "a lot"?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, when they break a wing, it often bleed to the point of finally sealing off after oozing for quite awhile. Gauze actually helps by way of making a lattice for the blood to congeal in and help plug it off. If you can stuff a little gauze or cotton up the hole that leads to the wound, it might help.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, by the way, if we manage to keep the foot, it's likely to be purple for several days. Unie once bruised a toe and it mad a blue/purple streak up tarsometatarsus section for several days before the color finally went back to normal so that's the least of your worries at this point.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi AZ,

Sorry I am a little late to this thread, but one of the tips I got from the plastic surgeon who helped the bird I am currently looking after was in bleeding situations, where you are using gauze to stop blood loss, is to wet the gauze with sterile saline solution, if available if not water, before wrapping with pressure at the first part that will be making contact with the wound. Apparently the water helps stop the blood from adhering well to the gauze at the wound site making removal later easier and with less chance of reopening the bleeding. In most circumstances pressure and gauze will stop wounds from continuing to bleed.

I found that ferric chloride was very effective in halting fairly severe blood loss, but if faced with a server bleeding situation on the leg again I think I would first try packing it with a little cornstarch around the bleeding and wet the gauze at the end and wrap with pressure. I would leave this dressing on for at least two days unless circumstances dictated otherwise and of course keep the bird on Baytril.

Also, a few other things, the gauze I originally had was 2" in length. I found the gauze much easier to work with if I unrolled half of it starting another roll, then when the rolls were about equal in size I separated them. I then took these two smaller 2" rolls and cut then in half with sharp surgical shears into 1" rolls. These 1" rolls were much easier to use when wrapping a leg. The second is, if it really starts to bleed you can make a tourniquet by cutting a piece of the 1" gauze and twisting it then tying it together to form a small loop. Place this loop higher up on the leg and insert a small pencil or anything else the you can put through the loop to twist it down (not too tight) to stem the bleeding while you are packing the leg to stop the bleeding. I used a piece of surgical tape to finish, as the first time I didn't and he managed to peck/pull his dressing off.

I hope things go well and best of luck,

Ron


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Would it make sense to make sure the Foot is 'warm'? 

To somehow have a source of definite warmth, located just below the dangleing Foot to make sure it is warm?

Warmth generally enhances whatever blood-flow is happening I think.

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, well it's both good and bad at this stage. Things bleed more when they're warm and they heal better, too. Seeing as how we're not talking very cold (ambient temperature in the house), I'm not too worried. If the tissues of the feet are not getting enough blood, then they're actually going to stand a better chance of remaining viable if they're kept a little cooler.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> How much is "a lot"?
> 
> Pidgey


 Well, it's stopped bleeding again. There was about as much blood as there was when I first got him. As in his leg was all covered but it wasn't dripping off. We're going to take the bandage off again and rewrap it with gauze after it gets cleaned.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you for your help there, Ron.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Well, it's stopped bleeding again. There was about as much blood as there was when I first got him. As in his leg was all covered but it wasn't dripping off. We're going to take the bandage off again and rewrap it with gauze after it gets cleaned.



Hi AZ, 


I think...if you are confident your alignment and initial bandaging was good...then leave it...

It is best to leave something like this alone and let it be.

A messy but stable, blood soaked bandage, if done right to begin with, once the bleeding is ceased... is fine to leave be, and far better in cases like this, to leave be...then damaging minute healing proress which is occurring, or starting the bleeding again by handleing or stressing the parts which are bandaged.

If It was me, I would leave it be for ten or twelve days or more, and call it 'macaronii'...

It will 'all' in effect have all become a 'scab'...and that is a fine natural defence against outside germs, as well as doing what it is supposed to be doing in various ways...and better left be than making it all start over.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## jazaroo (Jan 1, 2006)

Hi AZ,

I agree with what Phil is saying, there where a few times I left my guy's dressing unchanged for around 7 days to give it a good chance to heal undisturbed, on a couple of occasions when he had bleed quite badly. I said at least two days, but much longer if it is stable, even though it may not look the best from the outside, blood soaked and all. When the bandage was removed the injury did look clean with good healing occurring.

Ron

_PS: One other tip I learned was to completely soak the bandage with sterile saline, or plain water, when you are going to be removing it, let it sit for a minute, then start the removal. The soaking softens things up helping to reduce the chance of starting the bleeding again._


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks, that makes good sense...

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you do the splinting thing with masking tape and a popsickle stick (or equivalent)?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

No, the first time he did it (with the antibiotic ointment) he used the popsicle stick but he only put elastic fabric and tape on it afterwards....


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We really need to completely immobilize that leg for a couple of weeks at the minimum and maybe a lot more. Make sure it can't bend.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

OK, I can probably do that on my own since the bone won't pop out now. How should I do it? Could I tape the stick to the outside of the bandage or would that not work?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Normally, they only use the stick for immobilizing a broken length of bone. You don't technically have that here as your problem is at the joint. When 2" wide masking tape is used as was shown in the picture earlier in this thread, successive layers are piled up until the volume of actual tape immobilizes the joint itself to one particular angle.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

...possibly, a 'Big Gulp' Straw, or a short section of one...with some light padding inside...slit lsngthwise, and slipped around the Leg...might work well...with some light tape on the outside then, where the end of the tape is folded first onto itself, so the end i not stuck down...(makes it easier later to remove...)

The only splints I myself have made, I just used a little rolled thin pasteboard, like from a Cereal Box or Kleenex Box or Notebook Cover or similar...and padded it on the inside with some gause or kleenex, and taped as described...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi AZ,


Sorry, I may have been off base with discussing 'Splints' of this kind...

Now, your Bird...the injury/seperation occurred at the juncture or joint of the lower Tibiotarsus?

...where the Lateral condyle, and the Calcaneal ridge meet?

The injury is at the top of the Tarsometatarsus then?


Otherwise known as their 'Ankle'?


This likely should be stabalized in some more or less normal attitude, and not be obliged to be made 'straight'...so...likely some Masking Tape would be a good candidate, two pieces, with their ends taped in a little for later ease of removal...two pieces brought together from each side and presed neatly to fit the Leg/Ankle's natural bend at that point...or, if whatever you did initially, if it allows the Ankle to be in a normal bent position, should be fine...


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

We probably need to discuss a few things about what we're looking for to make the determination as to whether the foot's going to make it or not. For one thing, when birds get bruised, they produce a substance called "biliverdin" and it's a dark blue-greenish color. For the novice, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that it's "gangrene" which is actually black. 

In this bird's case, we might definitely see some darkening from bruising (which sometimes appears purple on the feet like we're used to) and we'll just have to wait it out. If any tissue actually dies, it'll be more likely to begin to dry and harden similar to what happens with stringfoot. Often, those injuries cause a lot of edema (swelling) at the start and then it dies. We'll need to keep on the lookout for that. That's "avascular necrosis", by the way.

Since the bird's on a prophylactic antibiotic (protective, rather than being applied against a known infection), we're not as worried about an infection going systemic on the bird. Therefore, we have the time and opportunity to hope that the limb can ultimately be saved, even if less functional. 

However, if ultimately it cannot then we need to prepare for the removal of whatever sections are so affected. A bird can bleed to death from a severed limb. The body tries to prevent that but it can still happen. Jazaroo came very close to losing that one with the stringfoot here recently. That will be a good thread to review. 

Normally, if one were to surgically amputate the foot in a case like this, it would be necessary to ligate (tie-off with a suture) the main blood supply to the foot, remove the offending section while trying to maintain a sufficient amount of skin from the removed section and then use that excess to form a covering over the remaining bone end. That skin of that portion of the leg is stronger than scar tissue would be and the bird will eventually form a callous there but it would be better with real skin.

The four main components are the bones, skin, ligaments and the vascular system. The skin in this case is already split so the hardest part would be separating the skin from the ligaments and vascular components (an artery) so that they may be severed. They can probably all be ligated together which means that you'd wrap a loop of suture material around them and tie it tight enough to keep from leaking but not tight enough to sever it. I don't know how to help with that other than make it look right. It would need to be done as close to the distal end of the tibiotarsus as possible. Then you can pretty much sever the ties to the tarsometatarsus a little below the ligating suture and cut the skin about a 1/4 to 3/8ths of an inch below the stump. Suture the skin together so that it wraps around and covers the bone end. I'd tend towards an interrupted mattress suture here to really press the skin edges together without requiring too much tension and in order to help keep germs out while it heals.

I'd wrap the stump in a gauze ball and tape it well to the leg where possible even if it means trimming feathers.

This is one possible scenario and probably the worst one to have to plan for. It is entirely possible that the leg below the injury could die, be wrapped up and allowed to come off at its own rate. Unie still has a bone end sticking out of one of her toes that's been that way for three years now.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

> I'd tend towards an interrupted mattress suture here to really press the skin edges together without requiring too much tension and in order to help keep germs out while it heals.
> 
> Pidgey


http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic828.htm#target6

Is that the one that you're talking about?
Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Picture #13


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh, ok. Thanks.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll tell you why: That particular suturing method does a better job holding more of the edges together and with relatively less tension than is required from a regular interrupted suture. It is used in areas where the loading is likely to cause greater stresses on the sutures themselves. You can see where a regular suture puts a direct pull in a perpendicular line to the seam and there isn't much, if any, closure pressure applied to the wound between sutures. In this type, there is direct pressure applied to closure across the full width of the suture and if the sutures are done with very little space in between them, closure pressure can be applied along the greater percentage of the wound closure as a whole.

This bird would be standing on that leg the very second after surgery (on us, it would be a very major surgery but to them it's remarkably less bothersome) so you might as well figure on using a better method up front. We have addressed doing a cosmetic pull (sideways face lift) on Popeye and you should go back and review that thread in possible preparation for this (of course, we still hope we won't have to--just getting emotionally and procedurally ready just in case).

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

OK, that's what I started doing. I'm gonna have a lot of questions, but I'm kinda taking it a piece at a time, if you know what I mean...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Foot pictures of "The Pirate"

http://community.webshots.com/album/552451986GMBHMI

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, Pidgey, for putting the pictures of my poor pijjie up for me. 

When you sew cloth you make the knot before you ever stick the needle in. I'm confused here. Do you pull the needle through, leaving enough suture material for the knot and then when you are done with that suture make the knot? Or????

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yep, you stick the needle through while leaving enough tail when you finally get back there to tie the knot. The fun with sutures is that you're always trying to leave just enough tail to tie the knot.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

OK, confused again. In the first suture, do you start close to the wound edge ummmm... 




(4) 1 *| * 2 (3)
*|*
*|*​ (1) 4 *| * 3 (2)
*-------------*​ 
Do you go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and back to 1 to tie the knot or from (1) to (2) to (3) to (4) and back to (1) to tie the knot? 

The horizontal line is supposed to be the side of the leg (not that big! lol) and the vertical line is supposed to be going from the out side of the leg to the inside (I would be suturing along that line.) Or does it even matter? Or do I have it all wrong?!
I ask because I thought that it was starting at (1) but the picture shows the knot ending up at 1? 
Anyway, I'm all confused again. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, realistically, we'd tend to assume that the existing lengthwise wound will have closed up by the time that you'd be doing this. Given the pictures of the leg, I'd tend to think that the tarsometatarsus section is maintaining vitality. Functionality is another issue. 

This original discourse was predicated on the idea that the tarsometatarsus section was going to devitalize and require amputation at the (distal) end of the tibiotarsus. As such, it was hoped that you'd have a tube of skin complete around the tibiotarsus that would extend below that bone. As such, you'd simply be closing off the end of a straw, albeit one that would likely have a small slit up the back side. 

Bearing that in mind, review the suture picture again and see if it makes more sense as you imagine putting a string of about three or four of those things in series along such a wound.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I'll throw in a couple more... 
By _interrupted_ mattress suture you mean that once I tie the knot I will cut the suture and start a whole new one? As in the sutures will be individual and not connected? 
For Popeye you said that you usually make 4 or 5 knots, is that what I would do for my blue bar?

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, realistically, we'd tend to assume that the existing lengthwise wound will have closed up by the time that you'd be doing this. Given the pictures of the leg, I'd tend to think that the tarsometatarsus section is maintaining vitality. Functionality is another issue.
> 
> This original discourse was predicated on the idea that the tarsometatarsus section was going to devitalize and require amputation at the (distal) end of the tibiotarsus. As such, it was hoped that you'd have a tube of skin complete around the tibiotarsus that would extend below that bone. As such, you'd simply be closing off the end of a straw, albeit one that would likely have a small slit up the back side.
> 
> ...


 Well, I definately hope his leg lives and I don't have to do all this but just in case... and it won't hurt anyway, seeing I'll have to do something similiar to Popeye later on. 

Anyway, I'll have to reread your post a couple times first before it'll make sense...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes, the interrupted suture is a single, complete suture in itself and that's what we're talking about here. The usual technique with swaged-on needles is to attempt to figure out how many you've got to do (it's tough the first few times) and cut a length of needle and trailing suture material to match with a bit extra (gets tough tying knots when there's not enough--you get very economical after doing this especially when you get into the cost of such sutures). The kind of sutures that you have are 36" with needles on either end. It's always nice to cut one length that'll barely do what you want so that the piece that's left to be used another time (too expensive to throw away for us) is as long as possible.

If you want to practice with a sewing needle and thread on a piece of cloth beforehand, you can better get an idea of how much length is required although suture knots burn a little more owing to the nature of the beast (thread makes tighter knots). When you pull the first knot tight on a suture, you want to do it slowly and not pinch the closure too hard. The second knot may be pulled a little tighter but you still need to watch to make sure that the suture doesn't start tightening down on the flesh too hard. By the third and fourth knots, you can bear down on it a little harder in the attempt to keep them from coming undone later.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, realistically, we'd tend to assume that the existing lengthwise wound will have closed up by the time that you'd be doing this. Given the pictures of the leg, I'd tend to think that the tarsometatarsus section is maintaining vitality. Functionality is another issue.
> 
> This original discourse was predicated on the idea that the tarsometatarsus section was going to devitalize and require amputation at the (distal) end of the tibiotarsus. As such, it was hoped that you'd have a tube of skin complete around the tibiotarsus that would extend below that bone. As such, you'd simply be closing off the end of a straw, albeit one that would likely have a small slit up the back side.
> 
> ...


 Well, what you said makes sense, but I still don't understand where I'm supposed to insert the needle for each suture. ... where you first stick the needle, leaving enough tail for the knot, the knot will end up _there_, there where you first put the needle in for that individual suture? If so, say I have the first suture done, when I insert the needle for the next suture, would I insert it in right next to that first suture and work away from that first suture (the knot would end up close to that 1st suture) or would I insert the needle further away from that first suture and work toward the 1st suture (knot would end up close to the 3rd suture instead of 1st)? 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Yes, the interrupted suture is a single, complete suture in itself and that's what we're talking about here. The usual technique with swaged-on needles is to attempt to figure out how many you've got to do (it's tough the first few times) and cut a length of needle and trailing suture material to match with a bit extra (gets tough tying knots when there's not enough--you get very economical after doing this especially when you get into the cost of such sutures). The kind of sutures that you have are 36" with needles on either end. It's always nice to cut one length that'll barely do what you want so that the piece that's left to be used another time (too expensive to throw away for us) is as long as possible.
> 
> If you want to practice with a sewing needle and thread on a piece of cloth beforehand, you can better get an idea of how much length is required although suture knots burn a little more owing to the nature of the beast (thread makes tighter knots). *When you pull the first knot tight on a suture, you want to do it slowly and not pinch the closure too hard. The second knot may be pulled a little tighter but you still need to watch to make sure that the suture doesn't start tightening down on the flesh too hard. By the third and fourth knots, you can bear down on it a little harder in the attempt to keep them from coming undone later.*
> 
> Pidgey


 I had question about that, too, but it makes total sense now. I was thinking something totally different. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Try to imagine a line of pennies (touching) with a popsickle stick going over the middle of the length of them. Each penny is an individual suture loop with a knot on one side. Imagine the needle entry points being the intersections of the lines of the popsickle-stick sides with the actual pennies.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Licha, 


Hows that Leg doing?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Hi, Phil, 

Just underneath the bandage, the front three digits have turned a lively red reaching about 1 1/4 cm towards the tips. 

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Hi, Phil,
> 
> Just underneath the bandage, the front three digits have turned a lively red reaching about 2 cm towards the tips.
> 
> Licha



Ooooooooooooooooo....!


Nicely done!


Yippeeee!


Yeahhhh...!


Hows the 'Sling Business' going? Are they abiding it allright? - are they annoyed with it? Or both? - are they pooping okay?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I suppose both. He would rather not be in it but he abides it. 
His poops are fine. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Okay, well, I uploaded more pictures of "Pirate" and his leg in the folder:

http://community.webshots.com/album/552451986GMBHMI

I had Licha take the bandages and splint off so that she could see how it's progressing. I think that the swelling probably caused the bandage to be a little tight causing some possible problems but we'll have to see down the road. The foot's still viable although the ends of the forward toes are a bit funny-colored. He seems to have a tendency that way because it looked to me in the pictures that the middle forward toe on the other foot has a slightly blue end to it as well. 

That black spot on the tarsometatarsus looks kinda' rough but we're leaving the bandage off or very loose to see how well it will clear for awhile. We're also going to start with aspirin to see if it'll thin the blood a little and help clear the edema in the foot. Add to that some Metronidazole for its anaerobic activity in necrotic tissue and we'll give it another couple of weeks. We'll let him spend just a little time outside the sling (supervised) so that he'll work his legs some and possibly help the circulation a little more.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

*These are a couple e-mails that I sent to Pidgey describing the leg:*

----------------
* 
Well, Pidgey, I've got it off. Actually, it doesn't look that bad, comparing. At least the leg is together. 
I don't know exactely what I'm looking for but I'll do my best...
He does straighten out the whole leg (using the tibiotarsus). He can't use/move the bottom part at all.
The top, outside part of the tibiotarsus is an orangish-yellow. I can't see the inside part except at the joint. The joint has a "hole" (not hollow, just no skin there) about 1/2 cm round that is very moist red flesh. If you presh gently on the opposite side of the leg/joint, little air bubbles come out from the bottom back (back of leg) of that circle.
The whole thing (tibiotarsus, tarsometatarsus, phalanges) is huge. 
The tips of all 3 front toes are black. The portion of the toes between the red tops and black tips is about 1 cm long. That is a whiteish-purple. I think that it is gaining color. 
The lowest part of the tarsometatarsus (1 cm) is totally black on the front side and hard, and white on the back side and hard. 
Thank you.

Licha
Oh, btw, the red on the foot that I told you about ealier today is about 1 1/4 cms toward the tips, not 2 cms, sorry.

~~~~~

Pidgey, when I was taking the pictures I saw that on the tibiotarsus above the wound there is a hard, crusty black. I'm not sure exactely what it is, but I'm thinking it is dried blood since it is protrudes from the skin?
I did not get good pictures of the inside of the leg. I tried very hard but I just couldn't do it with 2 hands. I'm very sorry.
The wound seems to be closing up, it doesn't seem very big but it seems that the leg isn't aligned right. It seems to be pointed inward too much. The joint also seems to indicate that, it is huge and it seems that the stuff is all out of whack in there. I took pictures of him standing on his good leg with the other one hanging which shows that it points inward. Also, he was preening and lifted his bad leg a little to preen there and I got a picture of that. 

Licha

----------------*

*Thanks for putting up the pictures for me, Pidgey.

Licha*


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey, is it possible that the black spot on the lower tarsometatarsus is a bruise from the nail? Because that was there 2 weeks ago. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I had wondered something about that--go ahead and describe how he got into this mess and how you found him.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Okay, well, I uploaded more pictures of "Pirate" and his leg in the folder:
> 
> http://community.webshots.com/album/552451986GMBHMI
> 
> ...


 Also, I _have_ been letting him out of the sling to stand because, well, it was just too hard to see him hang there all day. During the first week I battled about whether I should be letting him stand. One day I didn't let him stand but by the next day I gave in again and let him stand but his leg was too weak to hold him up. That was after only one day of not letting him stand and it made me worry about what would happen if he _wasn't_ ever permitted to stand for however long it would have to be (2 weeks!). So we worked his strength back up and he's been allowed to stand every day. Anyway, just thought I'd 'fess up.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Anyway, just thought I'd 'fess up.
> 
> Licha


Confession is good for the soul.

Now...

...don't you feel better?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I had wondered something about that--go ahead and describe how he got into this mess and how you found him.
> 
> Pidgey


 I had gone out to feed my birds and when I whistled they all came over to me. He had been sitting on the ground and I didn't notice anything until he started hopping over to me. The tarsometatarsus was dangling and pointed completely backwards. He had a U-nail stuck in his band with this side *->**U* between and parallel to the band and the tarsometatarsus. This side *U**<-* was on the outside of the band. The sharp point was pointed toward the toes and it made a couple of poke holes along there...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Confession is good for the soul.
> 
> Now...
> 
> ...


 Well, no, actually I don't. 'Cuz that's not what's bothering me. It hasn't been since I saw that he couldn't stand when I left him in there.  

Licha


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Any idea where he got his band hooked into the U-nail?

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

No. The nail was in one of the nesting boxes (had been for years) and I don't see how in the world the band could have got caught.

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

One of the things that we've talked about (at least in PMs and emails) is that if the ligaments and tendons that provide control and stability of the foot are no longer in working order that it may be necessary to fuse the tarsometatarsus to the tibiotarsus where the joint is. This would render the leg serviceable although only as a crutch. It would be able to bear some weight but wouldn't be controllable. The joint may actually proceed to that point on its own anyhow and we're going to have to give it several more weeks to find out.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well... then patience it is. ...

Licha


----------



## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sooooooooo...

At this point, would it be benificial in theory, for him to be permitted a few brief periods each day for standing, or trying to, ot useing the Leg in a limited way, under supervision?



Mild, limited use of course would encourage circulation and generally encourage the limb in various ways...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Phil, we _have_ "started" letting him stand and try to use his leg. Actually, though, I already have been. 
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=145324&postcount=122

Licha


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, I got an email from Licha today that "Pirate" is starting to use the leg again. She said that the toes don't seem to bend but he's putting weight on the leg and limping with it some. Apparently, the joint where the bone popped out from the skin (dislocated and open) is working somewhat. I prodded her to get on here and update, so y'all show a little patience.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Here is what I wrote Pidgey about my dear Pirate:

_ "I can't believe Pirate! He is using his leg now! I can't believe how normal it looks! He walks on it more and more everyday. He limps, but does put weight on it. The color is pretty much the same but a little better. The lumps above and below the black spot on the tarsometatarsus never went away, it's still swollen. He can't bend his toes but he does bend the joint that popped out. The black spot on the tarsometatarsus really worries me... "_

I sent Pidgey some pictures that I took this morning, maybe he'll put some up. I can't decide whether his foot looks good or not.  

Pirate doesn't usually stand on his leg when he is just standing though he does, sometimes. He sits on it which he has to bend the joint to do. It seems that his bad foot is more red than his good foot.

Licha
P.S. I forgot to tell you that some time ago the actual wound where the joint popped out sealed up; it is not open anymore.


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Weeeell, it is as I feared: 

"_That ring of dark injury above the toes is essentially dead but the circulation below is just barely hanging on. Hopefully, it can develop enough "collateral circulation" to keep the foot alive.

It would really be nice to take a piece of the dead section (the skin) out and pull the other skin together to fill in the gap. We wouldn't want to do too much at a time, though.

Pidgey_"

Licha


----------



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Licha, 

You've really done a great job with Pirate, and with Pidgey's help. I had very low expectations that the leg was going to be salvageable. I looked at the new pictures and at least there is some colour in the foot. The toes tips look a little odd coloured and there is that band of black tissue. 

Hopefully the leg and toes will remain "alive" and he'll at least be able to use it as a crutch or for support, even if the toes and tendons themselves never function properly again.

Best of luck and wishes for his continuing recovery


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I've looked at the pictures again this morning and posted them on my webshots link (Pirate1 through Pirate6):

http://community.webshots.com/album/552451986GMBHMI

It looks as though the circulation is still viable going down the back side of the tarsometatarsus. What we need to do is slowly try to advance the viable tissue down the front side if possible. That would require Licha to debride a very small section of the black stuff at a time down the front (and I'd start at the top of the black spot) and try to persuade the living tissue to move downward. 

That particular skin is going to resist being pulled anywhere so this will be a very slow process. What we might try is to make a soft flap of thin material like leather and super glue it to the skin above the black spot in the front. It needs to be a very thin strip about a 1/8th inch wide and about 1/4 to 3/8ths inch long. There needs to be a loop glued on that slings around the bottom of the foot with a traction string going from one to the other. It would be nice if that was a wire that could be tightened. We are going to have to tighten it from time to time. I suppose a rubber band like is used for braces could work well but we don't want to put too much tension at a time--only enough to see the skin being pulled downward by a 1/6th of an inch or less at a time. Each time the tension is increased, a small flake of dead skin needs to be scraped off in front of the advancing skin. 

This is the theory. It'd be nice if a violin wire would work but I haven't figure out a way to tighten it yet. Licha, why don't you start playing with that stuff (not on the bird) and see what you can come up with. You might be able to stretch the skin at the rate of 1/16th of an inch about every three to four days--kinda' hard to tell. You might even be able to do it with tape if it had a really aggressive adhesive like cloth medical tape. If you go that route, you'd want to pull it down to take the successive pieces off to replace with the piece for the next stage. However, you don't want to wrap any tape completely around the leg--all this has to be done on the worst front side ONLY to keep from restricting the barely-operational circulation down the back of the leg.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I've been thinking more about it and I think you could actually get away with a loop of cloth like cutting a small piece from the right kind of shoelace--many of them are essentially cloth tubes--and glue one side on above the black spot onto the good skin and another loop on the upper side of the good skin just below it. Then, you could use a bread-bag wire tie (I prefer EarthGrains Honey Wheat Berry), work it through both loops in its own loop, twist some tension on it to pull the skins a tad closer together and then carefully debride near at the black edges a little larger (but not much) than the head of a pin for starters. I guess you'd actually want to see how the tension works and which side it pulls most, back it off, scrape what the good skin might be willing to cover and then pull the tension so that it covers it.

One of the things that I'm worried about is that the bone underneath might die and then weaken a little. I think we need to consider what Jazaroo went through in this thread (start near the bottom of Page 2):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15077

If we can get that skin on the front finally down to the edge of the good skin on the foot, we'll be able to trim the edges and pull them together. That would eventually allow collateral circulation to form and then a lot of the swelling would be able to drain. After we get the front tied back together, we can work on the sides. In a couple of months if all goes well, you might not be able to tell it ever happened besides the likelihood that the leg may be forever "pigeon-toed". There's also no telling if the ends of the toes will fall off but we'll just have to wait and see on that.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Ok, I'll see what I can manage. If we decide to go the wire route, guitar string would probably be easier to work with than violin string.

Licha


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, be sure and read the other post suggesting a bread-bag wire tie (the one just before your last post).

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

I debrided a sliver at the top of the black spot and once I got past the outside 'scab' and the first layer of dried up flesh there was actually liquid blood there which kinda surprised me. The super glue didn't do a good job of sticking to the skin but I reattached the leather/bread tie thing and we'll just have to see if it'll work. 
Soooo...

Pidgey suggested I keep Pirate off of his foot so Pirate is going to have to stick to the sling for awhile. I'll also be trying to keep his foot and leg moist with hand lotion.
The foot doesn't look that great.
I guess it's just a matter of waiting to see what it's going to do and if I can get the living tissue to move downward. 
Pirate is on asprin and Metronidazole.

Alice


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

The swelling has gone down tons just in a day. The good spot on the back of the tarsometatarsus is bigger if my eyes aren't deceiving me. I never measured it to begin with so I can't tell for sure.
It appears that the white spots are actually from the red (remember the bad foot was more of a red than the good foot?) peeling off which I saw happen on one of the toes, it was that white under the little piece of red that flaked off. Part of the color on the pad looks better (a pinkish color almost exactely the same color as the good foot) and part of it is discolored, especially with the white. 
Looking at the foot it looks worse but examining it, it apparently doesn't- agh! I don't know what to think! lol

Alice


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Gotta' tell ya'--this is one of those deals that's like watching paint dry. It is, overall, an accident/injury that is more than just "uncommon", it's plain out and out unique. So, we're treading water here that we've no idea how deep it is. 

I know I told you to sling him again but that was because I was afraid he was regressing and I wanted that foot to not start dying worse because of "pressure necrosis" where the weight of the bird concentrates in the wrong area and starts causing pressure sores or a lack of circulation. Anyhow, I can't imagine him putting up with that very well so how's that going--are you letting him have some time to walk around and, if so, how's he doing at it?

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, he's in the sling most of the time but he's allowed time out everyday. As far as that goes, it's pretty much the same as it was. If he's standing, it's on one foot and when he walks it's on two...


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

*It's all HIS fault.*

Pidgey's prophesied that Pirate's probably going to live up to his name.

~Licha

P.S. Oh, another little bit of news, Pirate's name has been changed to Mr. Goodfoot.


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

AZfiddler_1996 said:


> Pidgey's prophesied that Pirate's probably going to live up to his name.
> 
> ~Licha
> 
> P.S. Oh, another little bit of news, *Pirate's name has been changed to Mr. Goodfoot*.


"Is the glass half full or half empty?"

New version: "Is the foot half gone or half there?"

Optimists... pessimists... whatever! A realist sees it as:

"The glass is half full of emptiness!"

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Seriously, we had to go out of town for a couple days and Pirate had to be left out of his sling while we were gone. The foot didn't look that great when we got back this morning but it does look better now. He somehow lost the back toenail on his bad foot while we were gone. The toes were white almost all the way up to the pad and were also very hard. They are pinker now but still very hard.

Licha


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> "Is the glass half full or half empty?"
> 
> New version: "Is the foot half gone or half there?"
> 
> ...



Mmmm, interesting...I will take not half empty OR half full, but FILLED TO THE BRIM!  

At least Mr. Goodfoot, still HAS some feets!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

mr squeaks said:


> At least Mr. Goodfoot, still HAS some feets!


 Well, I was just joking, I figured if Pidgey was going to say he'd live up to his name I'd change it, _but_ I meant to put Mr. Good_feet_ not Good_foot_ so I ruined the whole stupid thing anyway. 
Nope, Pirate is still my little Piratey who deserves 2 kisses for everything he does right and 2 kisses for everything he does wrong. He's getting "good" at his piracy, too, that little rascal of a thief steals all my love.  
Shi, wanna know where it was that we had to go out of town to? _Mesa._ Wanna know what my mom and I did Friday afternoon and all day Saturday? _Nothing._ You wanna know whose phone numbers I didn't have? Yours and Cindy's. You wanna know what else? Well, I'll just let you guess how that made me feel!!!

Licha


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Glad you PMed me, Licha...now you have info you need for your NEXT visit...  

I have no plans to move, so I'll be around.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

*Pirate Update*

The edges of the black spot on the tarsometatarsus had started peeling off very slowly while leaving good skin in its place. Last night the whole black spot came off. The leg there is pinkish as if damp (not ready to see the world, if you know what I mean). There is a little wound in the center of where all the black was where the nail apparently gouged into him. That is the only place where the skin is actually open. The nail wound is shaped like a little triangle. It is flesh and bloody but not bleeding. 
I guess it was a scab? It came off all in one piece like Popeye's did when I pulled his off on purpose but underneath Popeye's it wasn't skin, it was all open flesh. 
The whole thing had already separated from the foot except by a little spot on the top edge so it just came right off.
My camera is broken or I'd take pictures. 

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Took them tonight. Just fixed camera and tried "paint" and it worked.

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Licha, 


Wow!


I am so happy to see this leg and foot bearing his weight like this and overall looking so darned good...!


Yippeeee!


Good going..!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks, Phil. 

Licha


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Alice, thanks for the update. You did good! He looks wonderful.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

All considered, it's doing quite well. Those black tips definitely look dead although they could stay on for a very long time. Maybe the same thing will eventually happen to them that happened to the black spot on the tarsometatarsus. It's hard to say whether the nails will continue to grow or not. Only time will tell. Doggone fine job, though.

Pidgey


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Very well done, Licha and Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Here are some of the underside. The middle front toe is shaped weird the way it died.

Licha


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Glad to see he's standing on two feet! Hope all continues to go well!  

You and Pidgey keep up the good work!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great teamwork. The foot looks great and since he does stand and walk it is a great success.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That has got to be the best example of what we ask for, when we need a picture of the injury or trauma sight.

Good job on the pics, and the supportive care. Looks almost as good as new!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pirate stole Dumpty's favorite spot to sit. Needless to say, Dumpty wasn't too happy...


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I see that Pirate has found a method of physical therapy to re-strengthen the leg beyond factory specs. And Dumpty's so obliging, what a good little sport, helping his friend so enthusiastically!

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Quite so...!


Lol...

Phil
the meadows


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow! Very nicely done, Alice and Pidgey! 

Terry


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey, you notice the tips of the wings? They're doing the same thing that Milky Way's did. It's spreading like crazy. Mini Cooper's are a sorry mess and Treasure is right behind him. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Did you ever look at the feathers under fairly strong magnification to see if you could see any weird little mites or other parasites? Some of them don't respond well to Ivomec and have to be taken out with something like a Pyrethrin-based spray and stuff like that.

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, I did, but I didn't see a thing. I only looked at the flight feathers though?

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The stuff that I'm talking about is often sold as a bird lice and mite spray. It was one of the mildest poisons. I get it in a pump at a local pet store. I don't know if you can get it at Wal-Mart or not but here's an example of it:

http://www.petdiscounters.com/product.php?productid=1046138&cat=310&page=1

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Thank you, Pidge, I'll get some. I hope it'll solve the problem. 

Licha


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

That is the one I use on my baby-dolls, my Satinettes. It works fine for mites and lice and smells nice. 

I don't use the heavy duty pigeon spray unless I get new incoming birds, who have those nasty flies.


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pirate's inside toe is falling off where the dead and live parts meet. It's almost all the way off. I'll take a picture of it and post it soon. It looks good, I think. 

Licha


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

"Avast, me Hearties! Arrrrgh!"

So, Pirate is finally beginning to fulfill his name. Originally, I thought you named him that expecting that we'd have to give him a little black peg-foot. While that might have worked, it would only have looked good with a colorful silk shirt, pantaloons, a large black hat and an eyepatch.

Did I mention the sword?

Oh, well. Keep us updated.

Pidgey


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

They're not very good pics but it's what you get.

Licha


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YIKES, Licha, give him the eyepatch, but call him "Stumps!"  

I hope the REST of Pirate is doing well?


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, I guess that part is actually doing well, considering. The dead part of that toe just came completely off and the dead part of the middle toe has started coming off now. Wow. That was quick- all in one day!

Alice


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Get us a good picture of him standing front and center when they've all come off and we'll go ahead and do some photo-editing to give him an eyepatch and other pirate accoutrements. Use the highest resolution of your camera.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Get us a good picture of him standing front and center when they've all come off and we'll go ahead and do some photo-editing to give him an eyepatch and other pirate accoutrements. Use the highest resolution of your camera.
> 
> Pidgey


Now THAT should be quite the picture!! Pidgey, as always, you are BAAAAD!


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

The dead part on his middle toe is almost off now. It looks like the bone is going to be left sticking out on that one. The dead part on the last toe hasn't started to come off yet.

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey, Pirate's dead part of the middle toe came off last night but the bone that was sticking out came off with the dead part. The bone is broken off like a tree branch snapped in two. I'm real worried about it... 

?????

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Licha, 


I will guess, in theory, the end of the protruding Bone might benifit from neing trimmed 'back', far enough, for there to be a neat little stitch to close up the skin over it.

Maybe Pidgey can advise on this...

I am glad it all went so well..!

This was a really scarey situation for that whole Leg, and you did spendidly to have saved it like you did!

Yippeee!


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said that it'll be alright. :]

Pirate doesn't limp. ... he _waddles_! Poor little pijjie...

Licha


----------



## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's not a "waddle"... it's a _pirate's swagger!!!_

If he'd lost the actual foot up to the point where the tibiotarsus meets the tarsometatarsus and we'd gone with a "peg foot", then the real trouble would have been teaching the parakeet to sit on his shoulder while he was flying.

"Avast, me hearties, ARRRRRGHH!"

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Once Pirate is stabilized, there ARE people on this site who can - ah - "outfit" Pirate with the appropriate gear - eyepatch and ALL!   

That should be a riot!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

It fell off yesterday.. or was it yesterday... ...I'm sorry, I can't remember, there's too much going through my mind. Pidgey knows.
Anyway, here's a pic.

Licha


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pirate today...


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

He looks GREAT, Licha!

OK, who's ready with the pirate regalia???  That is the PERFECT PIC!


----------



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a handsome bird! Pirate is lookin' good, Alice!

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That's no kiddin'! He looks like he's got fully half his weight on the leg and in the normal stance. He also looks like he hasn't missed any meals, for that matter. Licha, you're not still spoiling this bird, are you?

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

HiLicha,


I am so glad he is looking so good!

What a tremendous 'save'..!

Handsome fellow too...!


Phil
Las Vegas


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> That's no kiddin'! He looks like he's got fully half his weight on the leg and in the normal stance. He also looks like he hasn't missed any meals, for that matter. * Licha, you're not still spoiling this bird, are you?*
> 
> Pidgey


 That's like the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" You say no and that means that you're still beating her, you say yes and that means you _were_ beating her. In other words- you're 'cusing me! It's not my fault, HONEST! I can't help that he can't be let out to fly and I'm not the one that's eating, either. 
Shi, I sent Pidge some pictures, I think he wanted one with both eyes showing because of the patch. If he wants that picture, though, it's all his.

Alice


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I sent a PM to Pete to see is he would "dress" Pirate. Hopefully, he can do so.  

Pirate will LOOK GREAT!


----------



## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pete? Oh, I thought Pidgey was going to. Does Pete want the other pics?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, I was eventually going to try it when I can get around to it. There might certainly be people who are better at photoshopping (editing images) and if so and they wanna' do it then be my guest.

Pidgey


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, I was eventually going to try it when I can get around to it. There might certainly be people who are better at photoshopping (editing images) and if so and they wanna' do it then be my guest.
> 
> Pidgey


Didn't know you did stuff like that, Pidgey. Hey, Pirate can always use different wardrobes.

'Course by the TIME YOU get around to it, I might have passed my next BIRTHDAY in NOVEMBER! And, that's only if we're lucky!  Besides, I can't hold my breath that long...

OK, you artists...come out, come out, wherever you are!


----------



## Pete Jasinski (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm going to try and work with Pirate's pic here, It might take me a while to get the quality I desire because I'm still we behind the ears when it comes to this program


----------



## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Pete Jasinski said:


> I'm going to try and work with Pirate's pic here, It might take me a while to get the quality I desire because I'm still we behind the ears when it comes to this program


Well, you were able to do the SABERS for the SPPs...that's a start...at this point I'm impatiently waiting for ANYTHING!  

Heaven only knows when Pidgey will EVER find the TIME!  Of course, my comments could already have him stomping off in a huff anyway...


----------



## stephie (May 17, 2006)

*Pirate Portrait!*

Here's what I came up with so far, two (very similar) versions here:

Aaargh, Matey! 
Captain Hook

Let me know what you think, and pass on any suggestions you may have
... ya land-lubbin' scallywags! (sorry couldn't resist)


----------



## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Stephie, you are so talented. Alice will be thrilled. I like the Captain Hook best.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YESSSSSS !!!!

HOW TERRIFIC!! KNEW YOU WOULD DO A TREMENDOUS JOB!!!

LOVE 'EM!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wowser! Those are terrific! You did a wonderful job on that little project, Stephie!  

Terry


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Gonna' hafta' make an avatar out of that one!

Pidgey


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

stephie said:


> Here's what I came up with so far, two (very similar) versions here:
> 
> Aaargh, Matey!
> Captain Hook
> ...


 Agh!!! My little Pirate- he's adorable!!! I love it, Stephie, I love it!!


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Gonna' hafta' make an avatar out of that one!
> 
> Pidgey


 I put him on my sig because those pictures are bigger. He's going to have to go in a frame in my room! I hope it will work, I'm afraid it'll chop his head or feet off or something.


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## stephie (May 17, 2006)

I'm glad you like it! It was a fun little task, especially with such a good-looking model to dress!


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, Pirate was let out to fly today for the first time since his injury. It's been almost a year! 
He flew and flew until he could fly no more (it wasn't very long- you can imagine how _fat_ he's become). He then landed on the loft roof with a serious look on his little face. 
Pirate thoroughly enjoyed himself today... and so did I. 
Thank you, Pidgey, Phil, and everyone else who helped me save him. Today brought back a lot of memories.

Licha


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Licha,


Very glad to hear...

I have thought of him many times, wondering how he was doing since those long-ago-now adventures.


Good work!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

He's doing fine. He still sits sometimes with his leg straight out behind him. It still pains him to a degree to bend it. He bends it, but you can tell that sometimes it bothers him. 
He could have been let out months ago, but the hawks were thick during that time so I kept that whole loft in. Then I had to be_ for sure for sure_ that there weren't any around.  
If I get the time, I'll take a picture of him soon.

Alice


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## AZfiddler_1996 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, this is very hard for me to do, but I have to tell you though I don't know how...

A cat got into my loft and massacred my birds. Pirate was one of my pidgies that was killed.


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh my, I am so very sorry. I read about Pirate this summer; he was one very special bird. 

Feather hugs and tears. 

Mary


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

THAT IS AWFUL, Licha!

I AM SO SORRY!!

I know you are devastated! My heart goes out to you!

I'm sending ALL the love, hugs and healing thoughts I can to help ease the pain...

Shi


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhh Alice! I am so terribly sorry this happened to you and your beautiful birds. Are you sure it was a cat as opposed to a raccoon or coyote or other predator?

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi sweetie - just want you to know I'm very sorry. He was a lovely little bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Licha, I'm so sorry to hear about your horrible experience. Pirate was a 
very special bird, doubly sorry to hear of your painful loss. Wish there was
something we all could do to help ease the pain.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so very sorry. We will always remember sweet Pirate.

Reti


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