# The Boldness Of Hawks!!!



## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

THE BOLDNESS OF HAWKS!

This morning before work, I ran out to the backyard to feed the ferral pigeons that come to our yard daily. Well, they did until we had three hawk strikes within a couple of weeks time, a few weeks ago. Now the pigeons go up on the roof, but are afraid to come down to eat. I think we had about 35 birds coming, but now it's down to maybe 15 I think. We have a woodsy backyard, and the coopers hawks just love that. Ambush alley! So now, I put out the seed and wait for the brave few who do come down, to eat. I watch for hawks. Most stay up on the roof. The poor things are hungry I know, and the weather has been so cold here. Only a few will come down, and eventually I leave. I often come home the next afternoon from work, and the seed from the day before is still there. 
This morning, our weather was freezing rain, but I noticed that there were a few pigeons pecking around looking for left over seed in the back yard, so I ran out to feed them. There were about 15 or so huddled together on the roof, trying to brave the weather. I know they were hungry. I was putting down the seed, and they were landing all around me. As I threw more seed down, they didn't even scatter as they usually do, so I know they were really hungry. I was being careful not to hit them as I tossed down more, and when I felt a pigeon land on my foot, I thought, "My, they ARE hungry! But didn't look at him, until I felt it continue to hit my foot with it's wing. It was when I looked down at my boot, and saw a bird with spread wings, one of which was covering my foot. I was shocked to see the color and size of the wing. Oh my God! A hawk! Then I saw that the hawk was on a pigeon that had landed next to my foot! I started yelling "NO! NO!" as loud as I could, and the hawk took off. Good, I thought, until I noticed that he had a pigeon! He was trying to carry him away. So I started toward him, still screaming. It was awful. Between the weight of the pigeon, and the fact that he was struggling to get free, and my yelling to beat the band, the hawk dropped the bird, and flew away. The pigeon took off as quickly as he was let go by the hawk. I just stood there in shock. I think it'll be a long time before that poor pijjie comes back. Then I thought of how hungry that hawk must be to have been so bold that he actually landed on a pigeon so close to me that he was actually hitting my foot. I have never had an experience like that before. It was amazing. It's too bad that one must die for another to live.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Brings back memories! It is terrifying. I experience a lot of hawk attacks--about 1 or 2 a week. Basically they hit mine the second or third time I release my birds. To reduce attacks, I lock down my birds for one week, then release them again. I think I am getting used to it now, and my birds are very hawk aware--they are even flighty now and wild. A resident hawk gives you a different experience compared to migrating hawks. Basically a resident hawk is like waiting for it's dinner every time you release your birds. I fly mine in flock so that each bird can gives warning. If I see hawks, then I don't release them. I think a slow, inattentive pigeon at my loft can't survive here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

RodSD said:


> Brings back memories! It is terrifying. I experience a lot of hawk attacks--about 1 or 2 a week. Basically they hit mine the second or third time I release my birds. To reduce attacks, I lock down my birds for one week, then release them again. I think I am getting used to it now, and my birds are very hawk aware--they are even flighty now and wild. A resident hawk gives you a different experience compared to migrating hawks. Basically a resident hawk is like waiting for it's dinner every time you release your birds. I fly mine in flock so that each bird can gives warning. If I see hawks, then I don't release them. I think a slow, inattentive pigeon at my loft can't survive here.


Do they get many of your birds?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

WOW! That is quite a terrifying story. I hope the Pigeon is ok.
I've had Hawks down a Pigeon in my yard, me walk up to the Hawk without it even flinching. I've never have one grab a Pigeon at my feet.


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## lwerden (May 31, 2008)

Wow..............These hawk stories, and injuries from these hawks that I read on this forum are just terrifying. What a nightmare.......these poor innocent, peaceful pigeons don't stand much of a chance. 

I feed a feral flock of approx. 75 birds every day in my driveway. I am in Las Vegas and so far......thankfully......I have never even seen a hawk. I pray to God that I never have this problem.

My heart breaks for both you and the birds.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

I too have a problem with hawks all the time and no matter how long I keep them locked in when ever I do let them out during the winter months my birds are getting hit by them in a matter of minutes  Even when you are seeing your birds get hit it takes you a bit to even locate and realize which bird is the actual hawk as they all look about the same while the commotion is going on... Sometimes by the time you figgure it out its to late but there are those times that you can save your birds too, its all a matter of timing and where the hawk actually grabs your bird or if it flys off with your bird .


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

lwerden said:


> Wow..............These hawk stories, and injuries from these hawks that I read on this forum are just terrifying. What a nightmare.......these poor innocent, peaceful pigeons don't stand much of a chance.
> 
> I feed a feral flock of approx. 75 birds every day in my driveway. I am in Las Vegas and so far......thankfully......I have never even seen a hawk. I pray to God that I never have this problem.
> 
> My heart breaks for both you and the birds.


Hi Louise. I remember the flock that you feed, and am glad that you don't have a hawk problem. It's terrible. More so lately though. I guess they must be cold and hungry. I have photographed them in my yard, and they really are beautiful birds. And they are only trying to live. But I just don't want to see it happening. And not with the flock I feed. 
Since you don't have hawks, can I send mine over there? At this rate, they'll never come down off the roof. I still can't believe the encounter. 
Charis, the hawks that come here don't usually let you get that close. I know, because I'm always trying to photograph them. What do you do when you get to them and they still don't budge?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jay3 said:


> Hi Louise. I remember the flock that you feed, and am glad that you don't have a hawk problem. It's terrible. More so lately though. I guess they must be cold and hungry. I have photographed them in my yard, and they really are beautiful birds. And they are only trying to live. But I just don't want to see it happening. And not with the flock I feed.
> Since you don't have hawks, can I send mine over there? At this rate, they'll never come down off the roof. I still can't believe the encounter.
> Charis, the hawks that come here don't usually let you get that close. I know, because I'm always trying to photograph them. What do you do when you get to them and they still don't budge?


I gave one a nudge with the broom and the act of the nudge, startled him and I was able to grab the Pigeon. That Pigeon did live to see another day.
Another time I chased one down and for some reason, it went under a neighbor's car. I was able to grab that Pigeon too and it also survived. If they don't fly off with the Pigeon, or get too high off the ground, there is often a brief window of opportunity where the Pigeon can be rescued.
As you did, I make as much noise as I possibly can.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just looking for an opportunity .. this was in my backyard in Aug 2006 and I have the hawks here all the time .. very brazen and very deadly ..

Terry


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Looks like a coopers hawk. Here's mine.
















They hide in the trees, and get a bead on a bird. Then they swoop in on it. I see them diving into the woods during the day, as I am driving along between patients. If they would just go after the rodents that plague me, I'd hang out the welcome mat.


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## Revolution Lofts (Aug 7, 2008)

winters the time for us Canadians to fly our rollers but its always so cold and the weather is terrible that i never get a chance. A hawk or any bird of prey wouldn't survive a Canadian winter where i live.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Gurbir said:


> winters the time for us Canadians to fly our rollers but its always so cold and the weather is terrible that i never get a chance. A hawk or any bird of prey wouldn't survive a Canadian winter where i live.


Why fly them in the winter time? Because of the absence of BOP? Are the BOP any worse during the summer months than they are here?


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## j_birds (Sep 8, 2008)

We have hawks here 365 days a year. They never leave. This morning I have already ran three away before 7:45 AM. Of course they will be back during the day. Sooo if anyone needs any feel free to come collect them  The ones we have look like the ones Jay posted.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

j_birds said:


> We have hawks here 365 days a year. They never leave. This morning I have already ran three away before 7:45 AM. Of course they will be back during the day. Sooo if anyone needs any feel free to come collect them  The ones we have look like the ones Jay posted.


Coopers. And if you have a lot of trees around, they are very happy. They attack from an ambush. They hide in the trees. That's why people who fly their birds like to build a loft in the open. I have a woodsy backyard, and am not going to take out my trees. They seem worse lately than normally though. Some of those hawks can get pretty big! Three before 7:45 AM. WOW! You can have 'em!


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

A hawk actually has to attack by flying in circle down to its prey; otherwise it would have to turn its head in flight and that increases drag. If you can create or set up temporary barricades about 4 feet high in a circle around the pigeon feeding area say 8 foot or so diameter, it makes it very difficult for the hawk to make a diving attack on a circular flight path.

We have found that setting up wooden lawn chairs right next to the feeding area to create a clear space of 8 feet between the area and the house effectively prevents them from making a diving attack. It does not prevent them from dropping in but that is slow and gives the birds lots of opportunity to get away.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I just let the chickens out for a bit and had a Hawk try to take Noelle from right in front of me. Yes they are very bold.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Keep in mind though that just because the hawk drops the pigeon doesn't mean the pigeon is safe. I had a hawk chase one of my young birds into a bush. I went in the bush and grabbed the pigeon who had no complaints. Then I watched after a few minutes and the hawk landed by the bush and started running around it looking for the pigeon. So if you can grab the bird or make sure it flys off to safety. Just leaving it thinking it will be ok is not always a good idea.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2009)

Charis said:


> I just let the chickens out for a bit and had a Hawk try to take Noelle from right in front of me. Yes they are very bold.


I hate when that happens  sometimes even when you get your bird back it dies from internal injuries which has happened to me many times ,its just sad ,I hate death ..


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

So far I am lucky in that the hawk only got 2 of my birds and injured 3 birds. I am always present when I fly my birds so when they get attack I make a commotion to distract the hawks. I saved 2 of my birds that way. I always lock down for 1 week after attack. Last December I got hit the first week. I locked down the second week. The third or the fourth week, I got attacked twice. That is my common experience here. Thank God that my birds are at least fast! I think slow bird could end up dead here. Here is one hawk picture that is sitting on a fence near my loft. I was able to go closer than this after taking the picture.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Grimaldy said:


> A hawk actually has to attack by flying in circle down to its prey; otherwise it would have to turn its head in flight and that increases drag. If you can create or set up temporary barricades about 4 feet high in a circle around the pigeon feeding area say 8 foot or so diameter, it makes it very difficult for the hawk to make a diving attack on a circular flight path.
> 
> We have found that setting up wooden lawn chairs right next to the feeding area to create a clear space of 8 feet between the area and the house effectively prevents them from making a diving attack. It does not prevent them from dropping in but that is slow and gives the birds lots of opportunity to get away.


I don't see them circle. They hide up in the branches of a tree, and then suddenly just swoop down on the poor unsuspecting bird. I have seen them just go straight for them. Maybe they circle when approaching from the sky, but from a branch, I've seen them attack straight on.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Charis said:


> I just let the chickens out for a bit and had a Hawk try to take Noelle from right in front of me. Yes they are very bold.


Isn't it awful? They're not even afraid of people.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2009)

I agree there is no circling about them ,Im not sure what you are talking about as I have only seen them hone in on my birds from the time my birds are coming in for a landing ,all in a straight line of in for the kill  If they circled before a strike my birds would see them long before they strike at all so ummm I again have to say I dont know what you are talking about


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I was on a roof today and the gulls seemed to want my attention...looked
behind me and saw a bird's back holding wings almost like a cape the way 
my pijies do and thought it must be two pijies being amorous. But as I watched, there was something slightly different about the 'cloaked' look and the head motions weren't quite 'pij' like. Took a few steps to the side to get more profile and realized I had a hawk in my view who was about to tear a feral apart. I started running after the hawk and yelling and the bird wasn't going to let go. But I meant business and think the hawk realized it enough to loosen it's grasp as it 'got' some of the "mental pictures" I was sending it's way 
That's all the pijie needed and it took off like a bolt. The hawk? Well, the
seagulls took over from there and dive-bombed it and chased the hawk into a tree accross the street and down aways. Probably a female sharpie and she
was bold. She did come back and the gulls and I played a 'stare-down'
game at it from the roof of a building accross the way. Very bold hawk.
Finally took off and everyone started frolicking in the air again.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bet that pigeon was glad you were there. Hope he was alright.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Yes, I think he was very glad that I was there. There was no significant loss of feathers or blood present so the way the bird took off was a good sign.
Sadly enough, a piece of red ribbon lay next to where the two had tangled and
I suspect that the pij was in the middle of building a nest for a mate.

I was surprised at how helpful the gulls were and how they played their part 
in chasing the hawk away and seemed glad the hawk was thwarted.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I didn't know that gulls did that. Interesting.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, neither did I, & I was really shocked because both Crows and Gulls, while sometimes sharing turf w/pigeons, will eat a baby pigeon or jouvenile if very hungry. So I was surprised that the gulls tried to get my attention number one, and number two, joined with me in chasing the hawk off. 

You know, mostly, I see the hawks perched somewhere scoping out the scene
and then dive bombing the prey that they have selected after quite a bit of assessment of the 'scene.

I have witnessed an occasional hawk who will fly with the pigeons almost as
if rounding them up, though they never were successful in snaring one by pretending to be one of the flock. I also know a fellow who breeds and races
pigeons who has mentioned to me that he has seen hawks flying in a flock
of feral pigeons but never actually going after any of them. He figured it
was because they knew that his birds tasted better than any feral and were
holding out for one in his flock ...

More than likely it has to do w/the species of hawk, I don't think this is something that a Sharpie or Coopers would tend to do.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Interesting about the gulls .. I'll have to pay closer attention when we have gulls at the duck pond. There are always crows there and when a hawk shows up, the crows will always harrass the hawk until it leaves. We only get large numbers of gulls at the duck pond when the weather is bad. I guess they come inland from the ocean to weather out the storm.

Terry


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I let my twelve birds out today, just for a few minutes while I got their food and water. I had two white birds and ten colored birds. It was cold out so I was wearing a hoody type coat. I had searched the trees and sky surrounding my property before I did this.

My birds took some short flights around the property but came back quickly as they were hungry. When they came back, one of the white birds was missing. This in just two minutes or less. I frantically searched everywhere I could get too, for my other white bird. No sign anywhere.

I love nature and am torn between killing these hawks or giving up breeding and racing pigeons. I am tired of my babies being eaten alive, but I understand the hawks are just doing what they have to do to survive. If I give up racing pigeons, the hawks will just eat the bluejays or whatever else they can get. I find a lot of Bluejay feathers and leftovers around my property when I don't let my pigeons out.

I know that killing hawks is forbidden and I don't want to do it anyway, but I just might. I am tired of this. Why would it be wrong to kill them, if they are killers themselves? Because they are doing what nature intended them to do? Well, nature has made me a killer also. A killer in planning.

Sorry, but I am just upset right now. Poor pigeon.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

conditionfreak said:


> I let my twelve birds out today, just for a few minutes while I got their food and water. I had two white birds and ten colored birds. It was cold out so I was wearing a hoody type coat. I had searched the trees and sky surrounding my property before I did this.
> 
> My birds took some short flights around the property but came back quickly as they were hungry. When they came back, one of the white birds was missing. This in just two minutes or less. I frantically searched everywhere I could get too, for my other white bird. No sign anywhere.
> 
> ...



Don't kill hawks. Period. It is against the law and they are just doing what they have to do to survive. You shouldn't look at them as being killers. Look at them as having to eat. Don't get me wrong. I know how you feel. Although the hawks are not "bad" here in my yard, they have taken a few over the years and it's tough to see. 
I've said this many times before. IF I had the problem you guys say you have, I would just quit flying pigeons. Period. I absolutely could not take knowing that every single time I let my birds out, one would be taken. 
I tried flying my birds this year between the end of YB's and now and it worked for a few weeks, but then a hawk got one of my 3 year old hens. That was it. They are locked down. For the past 5 years, I always kept my birds locked down from the end of OCT until around mid March. It was tough getting them back in shape to race and in fact, they really didn't do too good the first three weeks, but you know what? They were alive.............if winning a race is more important than the life of the bird, then I feel sorry for the person who thinks like that. 
Bottom line is, hawks eat pigeons. They eat OUR pigeons and they will eat your FAVORITE pigeon almost every time. You either have to live with it, work around it or quit. What's going to happen to your birds when you kill a hawk and get caught and get fined $10,000........that's a lot of pigeon feed......even at todays prices.  But, it's not about getting "caught"....it's about the law and maybe the laws need to be changed, but that's for someone else to decide.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Several years ago we had a lot of PMV birds come in over a very short period of time. We wound up keeping two of them. The others convalesced and were able to go into aviaries and some were later released. These two were in very bad shape with one totally unable to eat and had to be fed for several years. The other could eat but when stressed was very spastic in movements.

We would take them outside to sit with us in the afternoon. Both of them were close to the house in the grass while I stood beside them. Suddenly, a small hawk shot off the edge of the roof towards the little one that was spastic, just missing it by inches. The only thing that saved the little guy was a wide roof overhang and he was close to the house. Darn hawk set right in front of me while I danced a jig trying to scare him away before he finally gave up.


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## birdnerdz (Jan 12, 2009)

We get hawks here year round. We have one group of West of England Tumblers who have free flown for years. Last year I noticed they were super high and that means one thing, hawk, and there he was plunging toward the flock. One flipped right into his path and wham, took him all the way to the ground. To my amazement, the pigeon escaped completely unscathed. The hawk just sat there on the ground. Fortunatly there's a pheasant buffet where we live, so when our westies prove too difficult, they just go away.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I really don't understand when others write here about keeping their birds locked up during hawk season. What is hawk season? They are here, 24/7 all year. A pair of Red Tail hawks have been living on my ten acres since I moved here 5 years ago. I can go out and find them whenever I feel like doing so. Either in the trees way in the back of my property, or more likely, circling back there. I can not see "back there" from my back yard or house though. It is a bit of a walk.

I am in the middle of "no where" and I really ain't concerned about anyone knowing when or if I killed a hawk. Won't happen.

What I am concerned about is killing them, period. I detest the thought of doing that. But then again. I have set mouse traps in the past and it ain't much different. If I had a weasel, opposum, rat killing my chickens, I would probably do what I had to do to kill it also.

I just have to wrestle with my own conscience about about whether or not to kill these two hawks...............Of course, they will be replaced with more if I do, so what would be the point. I don't want to kill these, so I surely don't want to kill more, in the future.

I do not let my birds out without checking as best as I can. But it is impossible to raise pigeons without letting them out. Should I raise a hundred extra babies, just to keep the hawks fed? Of course not. These are my babies. Many flyers do though. Raise many many extras to make up for the hawk losses.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

CF. There's a couple of "points" here....

First of all, killing ANY kind of animal is NOT condoned here. That's just the way it is, whether you "understand" it or not.
Second of all, it's not against the law to kill a mouse, or a weasel, but it IS against the law to kill a hawk. Period.
Third of all, you would be well advised to keep your thoughts to yourself. If you think for one minute that it's just your "friends" here reading these posts, you are sadly mistaken. 
Now, you do what you want. Obviously no one here can stop you, but just remember you were warned. 
We all understand how you feel. We've all been there. The right thing to do is make a choice. Fly your birds, live with the hawks or don't fly your birds. The hawks are not going anywhere. They have to live too and they WILL live in spite of anything you do or don't do.


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## Birdman79 (Aug 9, 2007)

Just lost a yb today,i found him on the next block from my house.I got out the truck towards the cooper to shoo him away but the bugger took off with the bird to a tree next by.I walked towards the tree ,and he flew off with the my dead bird towards the park close by.3 other birds didn't make it back.20 minutes later the bugger comes back 3 houses down on a tree waiting for another bird.It's a pair of coopers that terrorizes my neighborhood,and aren't going anywhere.Now i just got back to the hobby 6 months ago,but the fanciers around my area,including my neighbor say that it's been getting worse and worse every year.


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## Grimaldy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Jaye3,

If you watch videos of hawks hunting you will see that they attack in a wide circular flight path, they don't swoop straight in. 

What that means is if you can put up any sort of a partial barricade that disrupts that flightpath, they can't make a fast run on their prey/

By the way, a Gull will definitely eat a pigeon. There is a gruesome posting on UTube of a Gull doing just that.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Jaye3,
> 
> If you watch videos of hawks hunting you will see that they attack in a wide circular flight path, they don't swoop straight in.
> 
> ...


The Hawk will sit in my Oak tree as still as a statue and then swoop... dive toward a Pigeon so fast... it's just a blur.
I've seen Buzzards circle though.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I let my twelve birds out today, just for a few minutes while I got their food and water. I had two white birds and ten colored birds. It was cold out so I was wearing a hoody type coat. I had searched the trees and sky surrounding my property before I did this.
> 
> My birds took some short flights around the property but came back quickly as they were hungry. When they came back, one of the white birds was missing. This in just two minutes or less. I frantically searched everywhere I could get too, for my other white bird. No sign anywhere.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry about your bird. I can understand how you are feeling.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I rather have red-tail hawk than cooper's hawk or sharp-shinned. Hawk season usually means winter and at my place there are more hawks during "hawk season." I also have resident hawk which stay all year round. 

Resident hawks + migrating hawks = hawk season.
Resident hawks = my daily season.


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

Has anyone considered keeping Guinea Fowl in or near their pigeons? I've heard that allowing them to run loose in your yard will keep hawks away. 

If you don't know what a guinea hen is here ya go:










They basically are VERY buggy towards hawks and other predators.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Lovebirds said:


> CF. There's a couple of "points" here....
> 
> First of all, killing ANY kind of animal is NOT condoned here. That's just the way it is, whether you "understand" it or not.
> Second of all, it's not against the law to kill a mouse, or a weasel, but it IS against the law to kill a hawk. Period.
> ...


I understand what you are saying. However. a couple of points. it is not always against the law to kill a hawk. There are reasons that can come up whereupon you may kill a hawk. I will not go into them now. Secondly, I am upset today but the truth is, I couldn't kill anything without really hating myself for doing so. I catch mice and spiders and take them out to the woods and let them go. My wife thinks I am crazy for being like that. I am in fact, a vegetarian because of my love for animals.

Another point is that they "will live in spite of everything you do or don't do" is not correct. They will not live if I kill them. But I get your point that there are millions of them.

Why is it sometimes okay to kill a human (police, war, etc), but not alright to kill some predatory creatures, if they are killing your babies?

I am not of a mind to kill anything, but I am getting tired of this constant taking of my little buddies. Something has to give. What would I do if the hawks were attacking my grandchildren in the back yard? Put my grandchildren on lock down?

No.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

*Wake up and smell the reality...*

Now, now let me put my personal opinion about this one...I hope that its understandable enough for SOMEONE to know what I'm talking about...I think my English is good enough for most members to understand what I'm saying. that's why they talk to me...If they don't understand maybe they can ask so I can rephrase my words...

About the killing of hawks is just the nature of human, they like to retaliate for some reason. I always think like this; once I let my birds out, I can not guarantee for all of them can make it home, but thank the man up there not everyday my birds are taken by the BOP or even cats...Maybe because the city is not really meant for BOP to hunt pigeons or my pigeons, of course they are out here and stalking mostly all kinds of smaller birds...I'm sure I can't fly after my birds...I know that once they are outside the loft its vulnerable to any danger, sky or land...So once we let out our birds just think that anything can happen, just wish/hope that nothing will happen everytime they are out there...I have some neighbors who I know shooting at my birds, but I don't go up to the roof and find out where the shots is coming from...I know cats can catch my young birds who is eager to roost around the ground/backyard and yes some of them got caught but I don't have to keep any grudge towards the predators, if I'm able or can catch the BOP with some sort of trap and don't get in trouble, I will do so...

I caught the cat (that ate some of my birds) with my raccoon trap, I know I have plenty of time to do anything stupid to the cat but all I did is bring the cat 5 miles away from my house, never seen the cat since...

I already mentioned this story about one of my favorite pigeon but I will make it short, Dec 25 2006 Liberty State Park, 2 mins after liberations, saw my birds scattered in the sky, Peregrine Falcon caught my bird by Manhattan skyline, 2 days after, State Park Ranger called and told me that my bird is gone,head is off, crop is open and ask if I want his band back so I said YES...For me it's an insult but what can I do, so the Ranger ask if I have any grudge or any anger towards the BOP I said NO...Now what can I do, I have no control over the falcons I can not tell those falconeers not to breed and release them, I can not say I have some pigeons and I don't want your falcons near my birds...This is something we have to understand and take all the risk...Let me be smart aleck now, "didn't you read the tiny fine print when you get your birds"?, it is meant to get caught (if necessary) meaning the predators is watching your birds...If I want to enjoy my birds by looking at them I will NEVER EVER let them, but that's not the way it is, I have homing/racing pigeons so they need their daily exercise, practice or whatever its called so I have to let them out...Being practical here, we can not fly after them, no matter if we don't see the BOP's before letting them out, we have no control over their (pigeons/falcons) flight patterns, we can't hold/locked our birds FOREVER...Birds meant to fly and take on the big blue sky...

About military/cops getting killed, the one who commits the crime chooses to do this things...It is not relevant to falcons/hawks/kestrel/merlin or any BOP's, not the same at all...I would understand if Eagles or Voltures run out of food in the mountains/deserts and there's nothing really to eat then maybe our little ones are in danger to get lift-up and taken away...Eagles do hunt wolf and some animals that they can carry with their claws...But hawks/falcons I highly doubt will happen and they don't bother human...


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## Birdman79 (Aug 9, 2007)

Pegasus said:


> Now, now let me put my personal opinion about this one...I hope that its understandable enough for SOMEONE to know what I'm talking about...I think my English is good enough for most members to understand what I'm saying. that's why they talk to me...If they don't understand maybe they can ask so I can rephrase my words...
> 
> About the killing of hawks is just the nature of human, they like to retaliate for some reason. I always think like this; once I let my birds out, I can not guarantee for all of them can make it home, but thank the man up there not everyday my birds are taken by the BOP or even cats...Maybe because the city is not really meant for BOP to hunt pigeons or my pigeons, of course they are out here and stalking mostly all kinds of smaller birds...I'm sure I can't fly after my birds...I know that once they are outside the loft its vulnerable to any danger, sky or land...So once we let out our birds just think that anything can happen, just wish/hope that nothing will happen everytime they are out there...I have some neighbors who I know shooting at my birds, but I don't go up to the roof and find out where the shots is coming from...I know cats can catch my young birds who is eager to roost around the ground/backyard and yes some of them got caught but I don't have to keep any grudge towards the predators, if I'm able or can catch the BOP with some sort of trap and don't get in trouble, I will do so...
> 
> ...


Yeah but when you have an outrageous number of BOP concentrating on our birds only then that's a big problem.I understand if i get hit once or twice a month that's different,but for god's sake not every single time my birds are 4 feet off the ground?????? There was an article some where that said song birds numbers were being driven down big time because of BOP. I hate locking up my birds,because they're suppose to fly,but i have no other choice.I remember 10-12 years ago i didn't have any hawk problems at all.Cats and possums were the main concern.Boy i wish i had that problem instead.......


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I think that conditionfreak was just venting. I don't believe he had any intention of killing the hawks. But I can understand how he feels. When something kills something you care about, something of yours, it is pretty normal to want to hit back. And if that same thing repeatedly tries to kill what is yours, you just want to stop it. He knows that it is illegal. Sometimes you just need to vent. It's almost like killing them in your mind. Makes you feel better. We've all done it at one time or another. We said that we were going to do such and such, or tell 'em this or that. It's just venting, and it's normal. He knows that hawks are a part of flying your birds. And I'm sure he's been hit before without reacting this way. Somedays are just harder than others. I can understand his frustration though. But I believe that's all it was.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

See, that's my whole point, everytime you let your birds out no matter how low or high are your birds it's a buffet time for the BOP's...You don't want them to stay indoors that long, you are also having doubts when you let them out but they have to be out to fly either AM or PM exercise...Our point is no matter what time, once the hawk is hungry and seen some birds around to eat, the eyes are lock and ready to attack on that bird...I can't tell everyone to give up having pigeons but NONE of us can't tell the BOP's not to produce or not to eat...So we just need to let the nature take its course...It sux but life goes on...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> See, that's my whole point, everytime you let your birds out no matter how low or high are your birds it's a buffet time for the BOP's...You don't want them to stay indoors that long, you are also having doubts when you let them out but they have to be out to fly either AM or PM exercise...Our point is no matter what time, once the hawk is hungry and seen some birds around to eat, the eyes are lock and ready to attack on that bird...I can't tell everyone to give up having pigeons but NONE of us can't tell the BOP's not to produce or not to eat...So we just need to let the nature take its course...It sux but life goes on...


I agree. I think he may have just been having a bad day. I realize it is something you must just accept as part of letting your birds out, but occasionally, it just gets to you. Kind of hard to avoid. He's probably feeling a little better by now. I hope so anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> I caught the cat (that ate some of my birds) with my raccoon trap, I know I have plenty of time to do anything stupid to the cat but all I did is bring the cat 5 miles away from my house, never seen the cat since...


I just wanted to mention, that you probably did end the cats life by dropping him off five miles away. I can understand your frustration with it going after your birds, believe me, but in doing that, you may very well have killed him. Cats don't usually survive just being dropped off somewhere, any better than one of your birds would survive on his own, with no one to feed him. I know there are ferral cats populations out there, and they will survive for a while, but not well. Eventually they get sick and die, or just simply starve to death. And often, if the poor cat is dropped off where there is already a ferral cat population, often he will be killed by the ferrals. That is their territory, and they don't always take kindly to new comers. Better to have tried to thwart the cat somehow, or if desperate, take it to a shelter. Just wanted to mention that.


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## Southwing (Feb 7, 2008)

I have had 3 hawks come after my pigeons 3 times this month and each time was within 4ft from me. They do not seem to be afraid of humans, and each year their seems to be more hawks. I believe the hawk population is on the rise if not already their. One thing, like most populations when they get high they seem to take care of their self.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

mind as well keep my mouth on this one sorry...


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## Birdman79 (Aug 9, 2007)

Southwing said:


> I have had 3 hawks come after my pigeons 3 times this month and each time was within 4ft from me. They do not seem to be afraid of humans, and each year their seems to be more hawks. I believe the hawk population is on the rise if not already their. One thing, like most populations when they get high they seem to take care of their self.



I really don't see their numbers declining any time soon though.I don't know how nature would take its toll on this one.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> Just to answer the cat comment; I did called the ACC and they said they only take injured cat or home trained cats other than anything else I can just let it go, I want to know do you think by killing that cat is better or just to let him go then find its own food source like the way he was doing here around our neighborhood...As I mentioned before I will do what it takes to prevent my birds from getting killed but I won't kill just to get even...
> 
> Another thing to add; if he can survive here by me by digging some garbage for food source well 5 miles away is just pretty much with food in the garbage but that is only my opinion...I'm not saying he is that filthy or dirty but he survive here, he will survive there, there is not much difference on our neighborhood trash and the trash from 5 miles away...I can not ask anyone to keep him because what they will say is " we have a whole lot of populations of cats in the neighborhood what makes you think we want one"...With the financial today, in some other states they have to give up their pets and put them to adoption or sleep just to save money...So what is my options here?


I'm not saying that I don't understand how you feel. I do. I just mentioned that to relocate him may very well have been the end for him. You didn't mention that he was ferral the first time, but even they would have a hard time adjusting to new surroundings, if at all. You say you would do what it takes to protect your birds, but not kill just to get even. I believe that is how conditionfreak felt also. I don't think he wanted to "get even" He just wanted to stop them from killing his birds. Tell me Pegasus, How are you two so different? Easy to see it in someone else, but we often don't see it in ourselves. The only difference in killing either a hawk, or a ferral cat, is in the legality of the whole thing. Other than that there is no difference. They are both just trying to survive, just as we would. Think about it.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I'm not going to stretch this anymore ...I'll leave it the way it shud be...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Boy, the comment he made, certainly did start something. I really don't think he meant it, although it wasn't the right thing to say. Hawks are just part of flying birds. If you are going to fly them, you had better be able to deal with it. Although, it must be hard when it is an almost everyday occurance. I can understand how someone would feel. That's all I was saying.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm just venting. As I stated previously, I couldn't kill anything that wasn't trying to kill me or my loved ones.

But, those darn hawks! I'm going to come up with something. I do not know what yet, but I ain't going to just feed them by pigeons.

There has to be a way. I will find it. I know that many have been searching for many years and no one has come up with a good way to protect pigeons from hawks, except for lock down. But, lock down will not work for racing pigeons. Besides, racing pigeons were born and bred to fly. Not sit on perches in cages in the house, or even in an aviary or loft. They are flyers and love it. They not only fly to live, but live to fly.

I am not going to lock up my pigeons forever and I am not going to just accept that I will lose one a day to the hawks. I don't know what I will do yet, but I will do something.

Maybe capture them and move them. Yes, I know that is against the law. Oh well, I will pay any fines or do any time. I have always been the type that looks at life like this: sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do, regardless of the consequences.

If I move them from Cincinnati to Cleveland, I serious doubt that they will come back. If different ones show up and take over the territory, then they too can move to Cleveland.

I will not just surrender. I will not give up my pigeon flying. I will not let my birds be eaten alive, without doing something.

Yes. I am venting again.

Darn hawks!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Conditionfrreak...Hawks are migratory birds. They would find their way back.
It would be easier for you to relocate with your birds, but where would that be? 
I really, really understand how frustrated you are and helpless you feel.

Pegasus...I understand how you feel too but dumping that cat was cruel. When you remove a Feral Cat, another will take it's place and so you're right back where you started...kind of like with Hawks and Rats.
I know you didn't dump the cat to be cruel but rather to be kind.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Seems like this thread has pretty much run its course and maybe should be closed?


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Charis said:


> When you remove a Feral Cat, another will take it's place and so you're right back where you started...kind of like with Hawks and Rats.
> I know you didn't dump the cat to be cruel but rather to be kind.


Just so you know, since I got rid of the cat there is not even a single soul is stalking on my birds, yes I see some but not the one who stays-put in my backyard for food...He felt so comfortable in my backyard and don't even care that I have a dog...My dog can sense if the cat is under my loft but he (cat) just refuse to scram...I can not let my dog bark for more than 3 minutes (NY law)...I'll be honest with ya'll, I noticed that he caught some of my birds before I found out that he caught one of my best (855) (been to 150 miles mark) and always been beating everybody going in, she is always be the 1st one no matter what...I didn't take any actions before but since he got 855 (1st squab that I hand-fed) and devour her, well time for me to take actions...I said to myself enough is enough...Any one can disagree on what I did but if someone really care for a cat, once I catch one again, please provide your address and I will ship the cat to you...If you refuse please don't say much...That's how I see it...I can't do anything about the hawk because they are protected by the law and they have more rights than my birds and another fanciers birds, but a cat is just another pet or can be someones pet...I am not going to knock around the neighborhood just to ask them if they want a cat to adopt...I'm sure they will refuse as well...I caught a raccoon and called ASPCA and ACC (animal control center)...All they told me is to release it, where? they didn't state any locations so what is my options on that part?, but to let it go where I think there's access to water and he can find food on his own...I did my duty and get some info on what to do with the animals that I caught...I am not going to post it on CRAIGSLIST just to beg for someone who likes to adopt them, practically if someone wants a cat they are not going to look for the cats who roams around the street they will get some pets from the PET STORE...Do you honestly think that people can just put trust on me if I ask them to adopt a feral cat? I highly doubt that...I am not going to keep the cat in the trap, I found a way to call the authorities and I got the info I need and that's that...Like I said, "once I catch another one" and I will definitely open a thread here and post the pic and all and ask who wants to adopt a feral cat...PLEASE and please I'm begging you to be ready, you will find yourself a pet from NY...I didn't just dump the cat like drop him while the car is moving or throw him up in the air, I did the humane way went to a location (PathMark) and release him there...The only worst part I think I did is take him far, far from my house, somewhere I know he will NEVER able to come back...I don't see anything wrong with that, is there? Now I want to know what really is my BEST OPTION here...I want to know the response PM or on the thread...

I have nothing against Conditionfreak ambition to make any type of trap for the hawks but that is something I can not do, for one strong reason it's illegal in NYC to catch hawks or any BOP's if it's injured and it happens to be I'm around then I know what I will do, call the animals center...


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I'm not trying to act like a smart___ but you have to see and feel what others see or feel...

I also caught a rat (still alive) with T-Rex trap...One of its /legfoot is caught on the trap, do you honestly think ASPCA and ACC will entertain me or my call, what will I do with the rat on trap...I think what they're going to tell me is to ____...Unless someone on PT is insterested adopting a rat because they feel pity...I already stated my opinion about rats, mosquitoes, fly and other pest, you have to understand what kind of pest need to stay alive or need to be put to sleep...Or shud I just disposed it with-out torturing the animals...If you know what is T-Rex trap is, you can look (online) what's it looks like...The rat is not able to survive in case I release him far away with the weather and the broken leg/foot...Do you think I shud ask around the neighborhood if anyone wants a rat or put it on "who wants a rat"? in search engine... Now tell me what is my option there...Thank you...


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> I was surprised at how helpful the gulls were and how they played their part
> in chasing the hawk away and seemed glad the hawk was thwarted.


This harrassment is an antipredator tactic known as "mobbing" in the field of animal behavior (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbing_behaviour). I've often wondered why pigeons don't engage in mobbing. They are certainly numerous enough that they could be very effective. Maybe it's because they aren't capable of emitting screeching cries the way gulls or jays or crows do?

Also, on the topic of "relocating" a feral cat, Jay is right that simply trapping and releasing the cat elsewhere is likely a death sentence, as it would be for any wild adult animal. (When I was young, our neighbor used to trap squirrels because they disturbed his garden and drive them 30 miles away to release; he thought he was doing a kind thing, but I'll bet most of those squirrels didn't make it.) The procedure to safely relocate a feral cat is very similar to that of soft-releasing a juvenile bird.

More information on feral cat relocation here: http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/relocation.htm (this is a local group, Pegasus, so you should feel free to contact them if you need info/assistance in the future; there are many caretakers managing feral colonies in the Bronx).

Jennifer


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2009)

Pegasus said:


> I'm not trying to act like a smart___ but you have to see and feel what others see or feel...
> 
> I also caught a rat (still alive) with T-Rex trap...One of its /legfoot is caught on the trap, do you honestly think ASPCA and ACC will entertain me or my call, what will I do with the rat on trap...I think what they're going to tell me is to ____...Unless someone on PT is insterested adopting a rat because they feel pity...I already stated my opinion about rats, mosquitoes, fly and other pest, you have to understand what kind of pest need to stay alive or need to be put to sleep...Or shud I just disposed it with-out torturing the animals...If you know what is T-Rex trap is, you can look (online) what's it looks like...The rat is not able to survive in case I release him far away with the weather and the broken leg/foot...Do you think I shud ask around the neighborhood if anyone wants a rat or put it on "who wants a rat"? in search engine... Now tell me what is my option there...Thank you...


 I think you are missing the point here , you already contradicted yourself on more the one account with your responses as to how you deal with preditors  you might wanna let it go now before you dig your hole any deeper ... please. Relocation is only putting your problems on someone else .


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## moonshadow (Mar 26, 2007)

I thought you could call in animal control and have hawks removed if they were causing problems?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

moonshadow said:


> I thought you could call in animal control and have hawks removed if they were causing problems?


I don't think so. They are federally protected.


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

jenfer said:


> This harrassment is an antipredator tactic known as "mobbing" in the field of animal behavior (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbing_behaviour). I've often wondered why pigeons don't engage in mobbing. They are certainly numerous enough that they could be very effective. Maybe it's because they aren't capable of emitting screeching cries the way gulls or jays or crows do?
> 
> Also, on the topic of "relocating" a feral cat, Jay is right that simply trapping and releasing the cat elsewhere is likely a death sentence, as it would be for any wild adult animal. (When I was young, our neighbor used to trap squirrels because they disturbed his garden and drive them 30 miles away to release; he thought he was doing a kind thing, but I'll bet most of those squirrels didn't make it.) The procedure to safely relocate a feral cat is very similar to that of soft-releasing a juvenile bird.
> 
> ...


I've read the site you gave me and called them but its an answering service/machine...The machine say; they are not taking any cats for adoptions or removal of the animal...
This is what it says on the site...


First off, there are millions of feral cats in this country and only so many barns and sanctuaries. Even if you find a new home, often the circumstances are uncertain. You may be dealing with a collector, or someone in a financially precarious position, or a person whose long-term commitment to the cats is not strong. There just aren't that many good places to do a relocation. (If you do think you found a good place, it's absolutely essential that you personally inspect the premises, interview the primary caretaker and request proof of financial soundness).

My opinion: In other words there not too many people who likes to adopt cats or feral cats...One reason is financial or some of them are not into keeping cats for a long time...Where is the best place for the feral cats to so- called relocate? Around Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan...Where?

Here's the 2nd part:
Second, feral cats are extremely territorial and have deep ties to their original homes. You owe it to them as their caretaker to do everything you possibly can to see they are allowed to remain where they live. It's a risky proposition to think their colony structure and relations will not be adversely effected, even if a relocation is carried out properly.

My opinion: This part didn't state what is the best option of the finder where to bring the feral cat...Again where and what is my best option here?

This is the last part:
Third, by removing a feral colony, you've created a vacuum. If a food source remains, it's highly likely new cats will at some point move in. This is the same problem which is the downfall of the trap-and-kill approach. You're just trading one colony for another. So you might as well deal with it now.

My opinion: I don't think this part applies to what I did because I didn't remove a whole lot only one...Yes the food source is my birds and NO i haven't seen a feral cat that is going under my loft and get too comfortable...Again where and what is my best option...No one is able to tell me...I'm talking about in the future fact...There is no answer to my options, I can not just let it happen again to my birds, I'm asking what is the best thing or place to relocate a cat?


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> My opinion: In other words there not too many people who likes to adopt cats or feral cats...One reason is financial or some of them are not into keeping cats for a long time...Where is the best place for the feral cats to so- called relocate? Around Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan...Where?


I'm sure you realize that there are millions of cats (and dogs and other animals) being killed in the shelter for lack of homes. At the ACC, even the most adoptable (friendly) cats are killed for lack of space. Entire litters of kittens are often "euthanized" on arrival. Feral cats are not considered adoptable and *will* be killed if brought to a shelter.

In the TNR (trap-neuter-return) community, relocation is considered the *last* resort. It's difficult, time-consuming, and risky. There is no one location to relocate--it depends on who has the facility to do so properly. The cat(s) need to be confined safely in the new territory over a period of time in order to acclimate to it, much like with soft releases, as I already mentioned. 



> My opinion: This part didn't state what is the best option of the finder where to bring the feral cat...Again where and what is my best option here?


There is no simple solution or quick fix here, if that's what you're looking for. There may be people with existing colonies near you who would be able to integrate the cat into their colonies. If you encounter this situation again, I suggest you get in touch with NC at that point for suggestions.

Jennifer


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

I do know there are millions out there that is being put to sleep...
This is what I like to read...NO locations to bring at all...So its like telling me to do what the best I can do for the feral cat...Thank you...I know for sure that if I bring it to them and ask for some kind of donations I know its for the fluid or the surgery that they will do to the cat, just another way of saying can you donate some amount...I'm just being practical...


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Pegasus said:


> This is what I like to read...NO locations to bring at all...So its like telling me to do what the best I can do for the feral cat...Thank you...I know for sure that if I bring it to them and ask for some kind of donations I know its for the fluid or the surgery that they will do to the cat, just another way of saying can you donate some amount...I'm just being practical...


Do you really expect there is some place you can just drop off a wild animal?

I already suggested, and am doing so again, that if you encounter another feral cat you feel the need to relocate, that you contact Neighborhood Cats *at that point in time* (does it really make sense to do so right now, when you are just talking about a hypothetical?) for advice and assistance. They can likely put you in touch with caretakers of ferals in the Bronx.

And I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "bring it to them." There is no place you can simply drop off a cat except the ACC, and *that* is a death sentence.

Jennifer


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## Pegasus (Feb 6, 2007)

Are you saying that NC will ask for donations? Yes NC is the one I was referring to...I think releasing is a lot better than dropping off the cat to ACC...If they do ask for donations I will be honestly tell you now, I will not go over $20 or if they suggest for me to wait or keep the cat until they find a home that is impossible...For some reason I have a dog and my family is not into cats...I can not contain the cat to a cage because there is no other cage but my dog cage...Any more suggestions? Sure I will call them if I catch another feral cat and trust me I will mention your name in case they ask how I found out about them...


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## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

> Are you saying that NC will ask for donations?


No, you are the one who keeps saying that, although I don't understand why.
Also, NC is exclusively a TNR group (that is, they help people trap-neuter-*return* feral cats); they do not find homes for cats.

The gist of this all is: there are plenty of simple fixes if you simply want to be rid of the cat, feral or not (if you were able to pick this cat up or get him into a crate easily, then he was likely not feral); if you actually care about the welfare of the cat, then finding a solution is more complex and will require a little more effort on your part. 

Isn't that how it is with everything in life?

Oh, and feel free to mention my name if you call. I know people on the board, so it should be no problem.

Jennifer


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Pegasus. I can understand how frustrating it was to have the cat getting your birds. I didn't tell you what you should or shouldn't do with the cat. I was only stating the facts. You said that you didn't harm him, just dropped him off far away. All I was trying to tell you was that it did harm him to drop him off. That's all. Now you can give me one hundred reasons why you had to do it, but it just doesn't change the fact that it probably meant that he wouldn't survive. I was only explaining that to you. Getting defensive doesn't change the facts.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grimaldy said:


> Hi Jaye3,
> 
> If you watch videos of hawks hunting you will see that they attack in a wide circular flight path, they don't swoop straight in.
> 
> ...


I've watched hawks many a time decend in a straight line from one particular structure and make a strike w/out circling first. They sit on this iron structure atop a five story building and watch until they see something that they choose to prey on and then strike in a direct line to the prey from the roof. Maybe the circling behavior is more specific to some kinds of hawks than others.

Yes, from my observations, very hungry gulls will eat especially pigeon babies,
jouveniles or compromised adults. They also will hang out together w/pigeons atop roofs without much incident on an ongoing basis. They both hang and watch and wait for human discards that can become their next meal. I think the lack of incident between them is related to food availability in the immediate environment.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

jenfer said:


> This harrassment is an antipredator tactic known as "mobbing" in the field of animal behavior (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbing_behaviour). I've often wondered why pigeons don't engage in mobbing. They are certainly numerous enough that they could be very effective. Maybe it's because they aren't capable of emitting screeching cries the way gulls or jays or crows do?
> 
> ...............
> 
> Jennifer


Well, they do have their own way of "mobbing" though it seems far more playful which is essentially part of their nature as well. They will take turns individually and in groups swooping close past a squatting hawk in a teasing/taunting way. I've seen this many a time and it drives my crazy when the ferals do it.

fp


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

moonshadow said:


> I thought you could call in animal control and have hawks removed if they were causing problems?


Animal control doesn't do hawks.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I have to agree with Lady Tarheel that this thread has probably come to the end of its productive life, and I'm going to put it to sleep now. If some of you wish to continue discussing some of the issues raised here, then start new threads in an appropriate forum and politely continue there or discuss things privately.

Terry


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