# Pidgey Or Someone..........



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I just got this message from a 911 finder who rescued a bird months ago. She's the one who sent the picture a few days ago and I was asking what breed the bird is. I have BEGGED her to log on here and get some help. I hope she will. I've got to be gone ALL DAY. I just wanted someone to be aware in case she joins and posts.............
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19882

Hi Renee,

_I don't think she's in love with me, but with her own image in the mirror! She still grunts at me and tries to peck me. I've been trying to handle her more so that she gets used to me - seems to be working. At first I was just talking to her and not trying to handle her too much, but I don't think that accomplishes much except to not have her get used to me.

I'm concerned about her right now. I started her on the Panacur medicine for the parasites on Tuesday. The first two days went fine, but the next two she was throwing up after I gave her the medicine. I didn't want to give her the last dose today without talking to the vet, so I called the vet's office. Of course she doesn't work on Saturday so they referred me to another vet who suggested I stop the medicine and let her system recover. They said the medicine is good, but may be too strong for some birds. Now Birdie is having trouble breathing, has fluid in her mouth which I can see when she exhales, it kind of comes out the sides of her beak around the edges just enough so I can see it, she shakes her head to clear the fluid I think, and she keeps shutting her eyes. So, tonight I called an emergency bird service and they said I can bring her in if I feel she is in danger of not making it to Monday when my vet is back in the office. They suggested instead of coming in tonight, wait until the morning to see how she is and then call if I need to. That place is an hour and a half away, but if she doesn't look good I'm bringing her in. They told me to keep her warm and quiet tonight and take down her perches in case she gets weak. Oh my, I'm worried about her. 
I'll let you know how we make out._


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Renee, please stop her from using any more Panacur, it can be highly toxic to pigeons.


http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18973&referrerid=560

Cynthia


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It certainly is in overdose and sometimes vets get the dosage wrong. If the bird is breathing hard, it's probably due to anemia as Panacur can cause that by damaging the bone marrow as well as some of the cells in the small intestine. About all you can do for them is oxygen and there's a risk--they can get so anxious in unfamiliar settings like vets' offices that it can exacerbate the need for the oxygen to the point that it may not be worth it. Quiet and familiar surroundings (home) may be important. It can take days to get over the damage if they can and if that's what it was.

I wonder what the dosage was?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

These threads by Aldante tell of Panacur in a bad overdose:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10546

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10564

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10648

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

After some further study, it's possible that Fenbendazole would best be used (if used at all) on an empty stomach and GI if all one wants to get is the worms in the GI. Its absorption (bioavailability) into the systems of dogs and cats is greatly enhanced when taken with food:

http://www.imb.ie/view_spc.asp?pa_number=10987/052/001

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Unfortunately, the majority of pigeons who were dosed w/the two drugs in question developed leucopoenia, the resulting lowered white blood cell count 
cause the pigeons to become more susceptible to bacterial infections and it is also believed that it can throw the 'Host-Equilibrium' balance out of kilter making
them open to a rise in Coccidial or Trichomonad populations. 

Once her bird is recovered from a response to the worming medication, it will
be important to follow up and keep a close eye on this bird for further health 
issues that the medication has opened the door to.

This is just not a medication best suited for pigeons, there are other safer wormers that can 'get' the nematode population w/a greater safety margin.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

This one didn't make it guys........... I believe that Lori is going to have a necropsy done.............


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

How sad!

Cynthia


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

So sorry Renee. That was a beautiful little bird.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

This so sad to hear, Renee.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

*Panacur...???*

I've never used the stuff and now I never will. Just got this e-mail from Lori with results from the necropsy.......you can read for yourself...........how sad


_Hi Renee,

I'm doing O.K., thanks. I just heard from the vet that did the necropsy on Birdie yesterday. The tissue samples came back from the lab and the cause of death was Panacur toxidity. The vet said that she didn't send any info with the samples stating that Birdie was given Panacur, so the results were solely from the tissue samples and were not swayed by any additional information about the case. I'm going to make an appointment with the vet that prescribed the Panacur to talk to her about this whole ordeal. Hopefully if even one pigeon is saved from this fate, it will be worth it.

As far as that pigeon in Farmington, I'm going to pass this time. I'm not quite ready yet for another bird - it's still a little too soon. I might adopt that one-winged pigeon from the vet's office that did the necropsy if it still needs a home. The girl taking care of it is moving at the beginning of the summer, so if she can keep it until that time, I think that might work for me, time-wise anyway. 

If you run into problems finding a home for the Farmington pigeon, do let me know. Thanks for all you support, again. I've asked for a copy of the necropsy which I'll take with me and my emails to the vet which will document this horrible ordeal. Poor Birdie.>_


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, I know this subject on Panacur has come up a lot lately and this report sure adds more ammunition to stop using it. Do you think you could find out from Lori what the weight of the pigeon was and the Panacur dosage and how long she was on it.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Renee, I know this subject on Panacur has come up a lot lately and this report sure adds more ammunition to stop using it. Do you think you could find out from Lori what the weight of the pigeon was and the Panacur dosage and how long she was on it.


I'll sure ask her. I'll let you know.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Renee, if at all possible, could you also get a copy of the Necropsy report
and post that alongside the dosage information? It may have further information that would be helpful for members to have made available to them. Thanks.

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I'll see what I can do.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

These necropsy reports and all docmented proof should be sent to all avian vets who have not seen case reports on the use of Panacur with pigeons, and who use it.

I am deeply sorry to hear about this bird, but grateful to you Renee, to update us and give us the facts.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Renee, I know this subject on Panacur has come up a lot lately and this report sure adds more ammunition to stop using it. Do you think you could find out from Lori what the weight of the pigeon was and the Panacur dosage and how long she was on it.



Here's what I got from Lori. She also said she would send me a copy of the necropsy report when she gets it.
Then we'll have to figure out how to post it here. 

_Hi Renee,

No, I don't mind at all. If it can help someone out there, just to be aware of what can happen with Panacur, it's a good thing. I've put the events into a synopsis of the incident below.

I brought Birdie to the vet to get an overall checkup and they told me she had parasites. Birdie weighed 281g and the dosage was 0.2ml of Panacur by mouth once a day for five days. Birdie took the first two days without incident, the third day she threw up and I wasn't sure if it was because maybe she wasn't ready for the syringe of medicine or I if I put it in too fast. The fourth day I gave her the medicine and she seemed fine - that was in the morning. When I got home from work I noticed that she had thrown up the medicine. By evening she started having trouble. One side of her crop was extending out noticeably when she breathed. She seemed to be in some type of distress. First thing the next morning I called the vet because I didn't want to give her any more Panacur, and I wanted to talk to someone about what was happening. My vet wasn't in so they gave me the number to another vet. I called them and they told me to stop the Panacur. They said it could be a good medicine, but that some birds didn't handle it very well. I didn't give her the fifth dose. She got worse on the fifth day and I called the emergency vet wen I got home from my part-time job at 11pm. I took her to the emergency vet on the sixth day. That vet took a lot of tests and said that Birdie was stable enough to wait until morning so I could start the treatments closer to home as this hospital was an hour and a half away. The vet did offer to start her on antibiotics, take X-rays to determine if she had a blockage and do a crop culture. I thought since the vet said she was stable enough to go home, I'd bring her to my vet first thing in the morning to try to determine what was wrong and begin treatment. She died that night - six days after she started the Panacur._


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Renee, thank you for the info from Lori.

I forgot to ask you to get the concentration of the Panacur. IF the concentration was 100 ml, then, if my calculations are correct, the dose would have been 0.07 cc for a pigeon weighing 281 grams. The 0.2 dose prescribed by the vet was pretty high.

I honestly think that with all the controversy surrounding this drug that we should all stop using it. I'm not sure how I'll handle this with my vet because she has told me that, with the proper dosage, it is a safe drug. Years ago when we started worming our pigeons Panacur was the only wormer we used for at least a year or so. The vet then switched to Pyrantel and we have been using that ever since until recently when she had me give ****** Panacur because neither the Pyrantel nor Ivermectin knocked them out. We had no problems at any time but there is too much evidence that something is wrong with this drug when used on pigeons.


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

I know people think there's an overabundance of "stickies" but...it would be nice to have all the Panacur toxicity information (reports, articles) consolidated in 1 place. Or maybe in Resources? What do y'all think?

0.2 ml does seem really high, that's double what we just gave a 300g pigeon, using 30 mg/kg and that was 3 days not 5. Thank god BB is still ok. The formularies do go up to 50 mg/kg, but even at that dose, it would be 0.14 ml.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Have already posted my experience with Squeaks and Panacur for ROUND WORMS...including strength and dosage...

'Nuf said from me...no need to repeat.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

sabina said:


> I know people think there's an overabundance of "stickies" but...it would be nice to have all the Panacur toxicity information (reports, articles) consolidated in 1 place. Or maybe in Resources? What do y'all think?
> 
> 0.2 ml does seem really high, that's double what we just gave a 300g pigeon, using 30 mg/kg and that was 3 days not 5. Thank god BB is still ok. The formularies do go up to 50 mg/kg, but even at that dose, it would be 0.14 ml.



Sabina, it just takes someone to put the information all together in one thread w/links to other sites or threads w/in this site. There are multiple problems w/the Panacur, one of them being how unforgiving a medication it

is in terms of overmedicating w/it, add that to a frequent lack of knowledge
base when Vets are treating Pigeons and it spells disaster. There are other wormers that one could double+ the dose on accidentally and come out OK, not so w/Panacur.

Thanks Rene, for getting this information and posting back to the group group with it. I know everyone wants to know as many of the details surrounding
Birdie's passing as it is very relevant for all of us.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Sabina, I am ashamed to say that I have been promising a guide on medications for about 1 1/2 years now  but circumstances have just kept me from finishing it. I want to do a rough draft of the information and send it to some members who can add/delete/amend/correct etc. because I want the info to be as accurate as it can possibly be. I can only include formularies on those medications that we use so it needs to be something that others can add to as we get more information.

One of my problems has been that I can't fit everything on Word, but, we are getting a laptop (yay) in the near future (the computer is already in town but our computer friend hasn't made it here to network it) and it will have Excel. Terry will help me with this (I hope) so just maybe we can get something up that will help everyone.

I can only hope it will be worth the wait.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Maggie et al,

If you haven't visited the link that Terry posted for IVIS and signed up
for a free membership, you really should take advantage of this opportunity.
Once a member, if you look up Therapeutic Agents, you will find that the same formulary that is in Clinical Avian Medicine is listed there for free.

Here's the link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19595

And for those who do not have a copy of Avian Medicinerinciples and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison&Harrison---Here's a link to an online site w/the first eight (8) chapters of the book as a companion link to the IVIS link.

http://www.avianmedicine.net/avmedpp/mak159.htm

The membership at the first link takes all of a minute or so and it's well worth
the minor effort. It's just loaded w/information.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Lady Tarheel said:


> One of my problems has been that I can't fit everything on Word, but, we are getting a laptop (yay) in the near future (the computer is already in town but our computer friend hasn't made it here to network it) and it will have Excel. Terry will help me with this (I hope) so just maybe we can get something up that will help everyone.
> 
> I can only hope it will be worth the wait.


Happy to help however I can, Maggie. I know how it goes trying to get a project like yours actually done .. too much other stuff competing for your time not the mention getting the new computer set up.

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp - easier said than done  

It keeps telling me I need to put in the veterinary school I attended.

What to do?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

PTU, or U of PT, take your pick.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> fp - easier said than done
> 
> It keeps telling me I need to put in the veterinary school I attended.
> 
> What to do?


I think I put in the Veterinary practice that I do rehab for when pigeons come
in. Put in the Vet's name that you work 'under the umbrella' of, that should
do it....whatever I did, it seemed so easy and accepted at the site when I
did. Good luck, Maggie!

fp


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I got the necropsy report from Lori. It's a PDF file and I have no idea how to post it here or what to do with it. Anyone know? If so, I'll send it to you.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'll give it a shot--send it to me.

Pidgey


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't know how to attach anything to an e-mail that is sent through this web site. What is your e-mail address? 

99 years old???


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here 'tis:


Pidgey


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