# Noob Questions on Perches and Wire



## Microcat (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm planning on building a few lofts this coming spring. We're currently in the process of buying some land, and it will need to be cleared out and have elec/water established first.

However, I had a couple "idiot" questions. I've read alot of books, and have picked up some info from them, but in general they leave alot to be wanted.

First, my question is regarding perches. I noticed many lofts use the, um, "Batwing"(?) perches. The upside down V shaped things. Can I ask why these are used more than a simple pole/board? Is the purpose simply to keep feces off the bird below, or is there something more to it?

Another question on perches. Almost every book I have read says never to use round perches, square only. And in many lofts, I've seen use of 1x4's and other square rods. Can I ask why round perches are unacceptable?

Question on fencing for windows and flight pens. I've read that chicken wire is a huge big no-no, but I've seen many lofts that use it with apparently no problems. Is chicken-wire still a big no-no, or can it be used safely?

If chicken wire is absolutely out by recommendation, is there any other "economical" (ok, cheap-ish) alternative? Around here, it's either chain link or chicken wire. So I'd have to order some rolls from other towns. 

I think that just about covers it for now. I'll probably think of something else. 

Thanks in advance for your advice! It is much appreciated.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

congrats on your land,.. about the round perches.. they are not used for pigeons because their natural place is on cliffs and so they like a flat surface better and they can sit down on them well, to keep balance to keep their feet warm.. as far as the chicken wire goes, it is flimsy and the holes size allow critters to get in the loft... it is much easier to start with good wire that won't allow critters in than to have to change it later.


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

I've used the plastic v-perches - I was hoping they would be more sanitary since the "wings" can be removed and washed. However, my birds seem to prefer a wood perch - mine are 3 1/2 or 4 inches wide and between 4 and 8 inches long. I like to give them a little variety - and they tend to like the smaller perches. The v is constructed to keep the poop off birds on lower perches - I don't know of any other reason. 

I would spend the extra $$ and get smaller hardware cloth. Although some people don't report problems with the chicken wire - I just don't think it's worth the risk. If you are living in an area where there are snakes and/or rodents, chances are that you eventually will have problems with chicken wire.


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## Microcat (Nov 22, 2010)

Good point. There will likely be snakes and rodents, as I'll have other animals on the property and a large supply of grains. Even though the grains will be kept in secured bins, I wouldn't doubt if those sneaky little rodents decide to move in. 

I may very well just shell out the $$ for a freight charge on hardwire, or see if the local feed store can order some in. They sometimes get in rolls of fencing. Might save me on the shipping if they can get it in with another shipment or something.


Any comments on the PVC coated wire? I've seen some in hunter green color which would look very nice with my intended set up. (I'll be using hunter green lattice panels with some other animal pens) Not sure how it ages, though I would assume the PVC is at least 5 year grade...?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

The "chicken wire" debate always seems to cause arguments on forums.
There are numerous folk here that will argue "if thats all you can afford - use it". 
There are also others that with the experience of previously using it, have had mishaps & catastrophies that have all led to bad injury or loss of birds.
One way of looking at your descision is - 
Chicken wire was originally called & made to confine chickens in an area from getting OUT. 
Its not strong enough or small enough "holes" to stop predators or rodents/snakes from getting IN.
Basically it is very thin guage pliable wire, woven & twisted to form a "net".
When exposed to the elements for even a short length of time, it oxidises and becomes brittle. Once this happens it is even weaker, and hawks or other animals can literally tear it as easily as you can tear a sheet of paper.

As Spirit wings & Garacari have said, Its really not worth the risk & expense to have to change it later.

Your best bet is 1/2 x 1/2 hardware cloth, Its strong, and small enough to protect from most predators including Mice which if they get in, their droppings can poison your birds.


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## JaxRacingLofts (Apr 11, 2010)

Microcat said:


> Any comments on the PVC coated wire? I've seen some in hunter green color which would look very nice with my intended set up. (I'll be using hunter green lattice panels with some other animal pens) Not sure how it ages, though I would assume the PVC is at least 5 year grade...?


If you can afford the PVC coated hardware cloth I would get it. The PVC makes the wire smoother and more weather resistant. All good questions you have..you came to the right forum for advice. The people here are a great help


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## Noahs helper (Jul 20, 2009)

*Welcome to PT *

However, I had a couple "idiot" questions.

Trust me...there is no "idiot" question that I have not already ask!  
Thankfully there are lots of great people on here with great advice to help us newbies to do it right! So listen to them, they know what they are talking about...and you'll be able to sleep at night!


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi there, i had Chickens when i was a kid and we used chicken wire for containment. Raccoons, dogs, fox, ect were always killing our chickens.

My life experience is to bite the bullet and do it right the first time. You will SLEEP better knowing it is done with safer construction and you will probably save money in the long run not having to do it TWICE.. 

If you let your dog run loose near a busy road he MIGHT get killed, but if he is kept in a fenced yard his chances of survival increase dramatically. 

Good luck with whatever way you decide and enjoy your pigeons...


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Hi Microcat and welcome to PT 
I'm one of those people that fight adamantly against chicken wire! I had about 27 birds killed by Norway (brown) rats because of it. Don't waste your money on it! Any Feed and Grain store should be able to special order 1/2 X 1/2 inch hardware mesh. If you have a Home Depot or Lowe's nearby, they carry it also.
What 'type' of loft's will you be building? If you have any type of 'flight cage' or aviary you'll need to put some mesh on the bottom to keep rodents from digging in. Rats will tunnel down to gain access.  I laid 1/4 inch hardware mesh down then built my flight cage over it, attaching it to the framing. Then covered it with about 6 inches of all purpose sand - easy to clean.
If you go to my web page, I have step by step pictures of how I converted an old Garden Shed into my loft. (I'm a female with NO building experience.....so if I can do it, anyone can 
Pigeons like 'flat' surfaces (as opposed to round) to perch on. Most people use 1x4's or 2x4's. I used 1x4's between studs, and 2x4's across the top of the loft and flight cage.
It also depends on what breed of pigeon's you plan on having also. Fantails, for example, don't need alot of height. They like to hang out on the bottom alot.
Good luck with your loft and don't be afraid to ask questions!


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## Microcat (Nov 22, 2010)

Great posts and information, thank you!

I was looking online at the various types of fencing, though I haven't been able to price it all yet. The PVC looks nice, but I'm afraid of the cost. It just LOOKS expensive. We'll see about that for sure. Right now it's just an idea on my wishlist. We'll see what comes reality this Spring.
I will be raising NPGA Pygmy Goats as well, and I use a combination of stock panels and the "plastic" lattice half-panels along the bottom to keep newborn kids in. I like it in Hunter Green, and thought that could be my unofficial farm color which is why I thought of getting the wire in green PVC as well.

If the PVC hardwire does not cost an arm and a leg, I'll go with it. Otherwise, looks like it might have to be the plain metal. Oo, maybe I can hit some spring farm auctions and land some discount wire there?! The ideas are flowing now! lol

For breeds I'm looking at Saxon Monk, Capuchines, Frillbacks, Satinettes and if I can find them Naked Necks. Obviously not all at once, and not entirely sure which I'll start with since I'm still researching the breeds available.

For the loft, I was thinking of going with a good sized indoor area so that I can walk in without having to be crammed in or hunched over, with a raised "rabbit-type" sunning pen(s) the birds can have access to during the day. Likely with a door I can open and close to allow and restrict access, instead of them just coming and going whenever. 
The library around here has bupkis in the way of pigeon loft plan books, so I've been looking at both chicken and rabbit housing books. I also downloaded Sketchup online so I can toy around with my own imagined plans and see what looks good.

I'm still kind of hoping the wire will be the biggest cost. lol. Lumber is actually one of the easy things to get around here.

Oo, another question... should the inside part of the loft have a wire floor or a cement floor? I'd think a wire floor might be drafty though feces would fall through, and a cement floor might be easy to hose out and scrub down, but seems cold..? Wood floor? Combination floor?


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I have had my welded wire on 3 years and it rusting already I will have to paint it or replace it.


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Microcat said:


> ... should the inside part of the loft have a wire floor or a cement floor? I'd think a wire floor might be drafty though feces would fall through, and a cement floor might be easy to hose out and scrub down, but seems cold..? Wood floor? Combination floor?


Avoid cement, if you can. You want to avoid anything that will retain moisture. Dampness = very bad in a pigeon loft. 

I have a wood floor (pine) and I don't mind scraping it at all. Some prefer the wire floor so the feces can fall through. I've also seen combo floors - wood with open wire areas (ususally where water containers or baths are kept). It's a matter of personal preference along with where you live. I live in Southern California so hard driving rain, snow and humidity are not an issue.


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## ptras (Jun 29, 2010)

Microcat said:


> Good point. There will likely be snakes and rodents, as I'll have other animals on the property and a large supply of grains. Even though the grains will be kept in secured bins, I wouldn't doubt if those sneaky little rodents decide to move in.
> 
> I may very well just shell out the $$ for a freight charge on hardwire, or see if the local feed store can order some in. They sometimes get in rolls of fencing. Might save me on the shipping if they can get it in with another shipment or something.
> 
> ...


You can buy 1/2 inch galvanized hardware cloth at Home Depot or Lowes. I have seen the green vinyl coated hardware cloth, and I agree that it looks nice. However, it is about three times as expensive as galvanized hardware cloth.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Microcat said:


> Great posts and information, thank you!
> 
> I was looking online at the various types of fencing, though I haven't been able to price it all yet. The PVC looks nice, but I'm afraid of the cost. It just LOOKS expensive. We'll see about that for sure. Right now it's just an idea on my wishlist. We'll see what comes reality this Spring.
> I will be raising NPGA Pygmy Goats as well, and I use a combination of stock panels and the "plastic" lattice half-panels along the bottom to keep newborn kids in. I like it in Hunter Green, and thought that could be my unofficial farm color which is why I thought of getting the wire in green PVC as well.
> ...


as far as the floor goes... there is good and bad to all of them.. the best I think IMO.. is wood.. with a grate..critters can get in there.. cement..well the biggest thing about keeping pigeons is keeping things dry.. cement should not be hosed out.. then it is wet.. in a open situation like a flight aviary might work.. but not enclosed.. wood is and will dry quick after you scrape it of the droppings and you can use floor dressings that can dry things up as well.. usually a loft is off the ground to keep moisture away.. so a wood floor up off the ground is the best bet.. IMO.. I have that and Iam happy with it.


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

You can get your hard wearcloth through Amazon.com...... Hardware Cloth, 1/2" x 24" $30 36" $45 48" 60 ALL 50' rools FYI


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## chayi (May 1, 2010)

If you going to use wire mesh defently go with 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch i have 1x1 inch and on the floor of the loft too and some cats killed my baby birds that were not flying yet, now i got to make changes to the loft i guess wood floors are safer.


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## Microcat (Nov 22, 2010)

ptras said:


> You can buy 1/2 inch galvanized hardware cloth at Home Depot or Lowes. I have seen the green vinyl coated hardware cloth, and I agree that it looks nice. However, it is about three times as expensive as galvanized hardware cloth.


GACK!  Ok, so maybe the galvanized is a nice color.



GEMcC5150 said:


> You can get your hard wearcloth through Amazon.com...... Hardware Cloth, 1/2" x 24" $30 36" $45 48" 60 ALL 50' rools FYI


Wow, did not know that. Heading to amazon soon as I post this to take a look.



chayi said:


> If you going to use wire mesh defently go with 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch i have 1x1 inch and on the floor of the loft too and some cats killed my baby birds that were not flying yet, now i got to make changes to the loft i guess wood floors are safer.


Oo, good information; but sad.  I wouldn't have thought about the non flyers on the floor being at such risk! Obviously that shows how much I don't know!


It's official, I am so glad I came here for info well ahead of time before just throwing something pitiful together next spring.


And good points on the moisture. That is something the books didn't really cover in much depth.  

Should a wood floor have any kind of water treatment.. like, I forget what it's called, but the stuff used on Decks that makes water bead up and roll off or something? Or just use an outdoor grade plywood?

I've seen how much the little critters can poo, and I just think hosing it down once in a while might be a benefit to sanitation...? Maybe not?

Again, sorry for all the questions, but GREATLY appreciate the info! I'm taking notes, I assure you.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

If your loft is well enough ventilated (although not draughty) there should be no problem with a concrete floor finished with a thin scree to smooth it over.
It can then be painted with a couple of coats of 2 pac floor paint (like garage workshops) which is also hardwearing, waterproof and non slip.
If cleaned regularly (like any floor should) you will find the poops dont stick as much as the surface is non pourous.
Like any floor, it will require maintenance over time, but no more or less than other materials.
The paint is more expensive, but gives a good finish & makes it more practical in the long run. Just depends on how much you want to spend.


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