# Found an Injured pigeon in Bilbao Spain-help



## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

My daughter found a pigeon flopping around on the street several hours ago in Bilbao Spain. We are from the US and do not know if there is a place to take sick and injured birds here like we have in Florida and have no idea how to even begin to find something like this out here. We gently wrapped it to limit its movement so it can rest the night and it is safe in a cushioned box with air holes. It just seems to flop around and it appears not to be sick, but injured although we cannot see anything yet as we did not want to stress it out any more today. I highly doubt there is a place to take it here in Bilbao and having owned cockatiels and a parrot in the past we are avid bird lovers and protectors and we can attempt to help it if someone can just tell us what to do. We live here in Bilbao and have ample room to nurse it. We need to know how to check her for injuries without x-ray. Is there some way we can narrow this down? We will attempt to check it out in the morning once it has had time to relax and rest. It does not appear to be a baby but also does not seem very old. Anything from anyone is greatly appreciated.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

birdgirls said:


> My daughter found a pigeon flopping around on the street several hours ago in Bilbao Spain. We are from the US and do not know if there is a place to take sick and injured birds here like we have in Florida and have no idea how to even begin to find something like this out here. We gently wrapped it to limit its movement so it can rest the night and it is safe in a cushioned box with air holes. It just seems to flop around and it appears not to be sick, but injured although we cannot see anything yet as we did not want to stress it out any more today. I highly doubt there is a place to take it here in Bilbao and having owned cockatiels and a parrot in the past we are avid bird lovers and protectors and we can attempt to help it if someone can just tell us what to do. We live here in Bilbao and have ample room to nurse it. We need to know how to check her for injuries without x-ray. Is there some way we can narrow this down? We will attempt to check it out in the morning once it has had time to relax and rest. It does not appear to be a baby but also does not seem very old. Anything from anyone is greatly appreciated.


I'm probably not going to be much help, just wanted you to know that someone who CAN help will be along. I'll see which members are on line right now and alert them to this post.
Hang on..................


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

maybe these will help in the meantime. Not sure of the time differenc in you and the US. I don't know what to tell you is wrong with the bird, but the way it's flopping around I wonder if it could possibly have broken legs? or is it possible that it's been poisoned? Can you post pictures? 


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=11265


http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8755


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

*Bilbao pigeon*

I will keep checking for messages. thanks for any help. I think the legs are broken but as I mentioned I just didn't want to stress it out more today. It is 11:30 at night here and I thought a good rest tonight and then I can check it in the morning. I can take photos and do anything and post them tomorrow, Do you think the morning is okay?


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you for rescuing this poor bird.
Several things could be wrong with him, he could have PMV (don't know how prevalent it is in birds in Spain), could be some other neurological disease, he could have been hit by a car, or he could have been poisoned, who knows.
Do you have a heating pad? If you do place it in the box and with a towel on top of it so he can be kept warm. A quiet, dark room will help.
A pic would be great. 
When he stops flopping you can start giving him some water. See first if he drinks on his own by placing a deeper bowl of water in his box. If he is not drinking you will have to give him water with a syringe.


Reti


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

thanks. It is safe and warm in a box and resting now. We are going to bed it is 12:15 Tuesday morning so I will check it in the morning and try to get it to drink or eat something. I suspect it was hit by a car in the city, but not sure about PMV, I am not familiar with this. If the legs are broken I am sure I can tell if it is unable to walk on them. I don't think its wings are broken, but not sure of any internal injuries. It appears fine otherwise as its eyes look good and it really does not appear to be sickly. I will do a better assessment in the morning and post what I have found so far. Thanks again.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello birdgirls,

I see from Google Earth that Bilbao is near the northern coast of Spain, close to the corner where it joins France.

Pigeons racing northerly to Britain set out from Barcelona, not so close to you. 

I see that the airport of Bilbao is named _La Paloma_, which means "pigeon" or "dove" in Spanish, so apparently someone there liked pigeons at one time.

One of my neighbor ladies, Fr. Brunner, here in Cologne, started an animal shelter somewhere in Spain years ago, and the local city kept it going. I met her when I took over bird-sitting a beautiful pigeon she found exhausted on the roof of a car, with a broken wing, on which she spent a lot of money at the vet's. I will try to contact her when she is home to see if she has any advice for Spanish contacts. Probably not, but doesn't hurt to check. 

I'm from Texas, living in Cologne. If you would care to PM (Private Message) or email me your phone number, I can call Bilbao for 0,015 Euro or 1-2 cents a minute from here. Same time zone as yours. I sleep late, until noon-ish. 

Keep pigeon warm, as you know. If it has nerve damage, drinking water might be dangerous. But it does need to stay hydrated. Resources section lists IRS International Rehydrating Solution formula. Pigeons drink like horses from a water trough, heads down, beaks in water. Opening to the trachea or windpipe is at the base of the tongue, on the topside; not near the roof of the mouth.

I rescued a pigeon last June, *Mister Fifty*, with *PMV* (ParaMyxoVirus). If he tried to pick up a seed it would throw its head up and toss te seed any which way, and would push its legs straight, effectively pushing itself upwards and backwards, and flapping its wings at the same time, so that it looked like it was flying backwards a few feet. Imagine yourself on a diving board wanting to do a swan dive, but doing a back flip instead, and you get something of the picture. He tried to pick up a seed, but would hit the ground near the seed. If he wanted to see what was behind and above him, he had to turn his head upside down. I kept him in a quiet, dark, pet carrier at first, where he felt safe; force fed him and used a hypodermic syringe with a baby bird feeding needle (curved needle with a blunt, bulbous tip) for water and medications, and after five weeks with us he flew off to chase te local females. His voice changed while he was with us. My wife saw him a few months back, acting like a normal healthy male street pigeon. She recognized him partly because he had been scalped before I caught him. 

I won't advise you to do this, because I am not an expert on breaks, but if I recall correctly, someone (fp/feral pigeon?) told me back in March that if you pull the wing out gently and the pigeon can retract it, then it is not broken. But I will let someone else advise on that. We have a female pigeon *Osk-gurr* who was hit by a car or by a raptor whom I rescued on March 20th, who had "soft tissue" damage (to nerve or muscle, and who cannot use her left wing). She had all of her tail feathers missing, many secondary feathers on the left wing missing, and feathers on her upper back from being pecked by other pigeons. Quick on her feet, and very healthy now. 

Big question: do you speak Spanish? (I don't, but sister in USA does). There are some PT members who do, such as Victor, if this is necessary to find help.

Even if for some reason she cannot eat on her own, a bowl of seeds and a deep jar (1-2 inches deep) of fresh water in front of her will be a psychological boost.

When you loom over a bird, you are in the predator position. The "Hand" is always an enemy (even to my rescued-as-a-baby and hand-raised two-year-old macho male pigeon *Wieteke*). I know you know this, but even I tend to forget this at times, all too often. It is always much more convenient to have them on your lap or on a table when you handle them, and they are often scared stiff and very, very vulnerable. I need to work on my care-taking skills and attitude.

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Here is a link to the website of PACMA, Partido Antitaurino Contra Maltrato Animal,
against bullfighting mistreatment of animals. They did a demonstration against killing bulls in bullfights yesterday, in Bilbao. 

http://www.pacma.es/ 

They might be able to help you find suitable vets, if necessary. Best links to animals or pigeons I could find so far in google. 

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

birdgirls said:


> My daughter found a pigeon flopping around on the street several hours ago in Bilbao Spain. We are from the US and do not know if there is a place to take sick and injured birds here like we have in Florida and have no idea how to even begin to find something like this out here. We gently wrapped it to limit its movement so it can rest the night and it is safe in a cushioned box with air holes. It just seems to flop around and it appears not to be sick, but injured although we cannot see anything yet as we did not want to stress it out any more today. I highly doubt there is a place to take it here in Bilbao and having owned cockatiels and a parrot in the past we are avid bird lovers and protectors and we can attempt to help it if someone can just tell us what to do. We live here in Bilbao and have ample room to nurse it. We need to know how to check her for injuries without x-ray. Is there some way we can narrow this down? We will attempt to check it out in the morning once it has had time to relax and rest. It does not appear to be a baby but also does not seem very old. Anything from anyone is greatly appreciated.



Hi birdgirls,


Wow...thanks for trying to see what you can do...


Can you post any images?


Illness, injury, privaiton, or whatever combinations of these can result in a Pigeon 'flopping'...whether young or old.


It is fairly easy to determine if their Legs are 'working'...or if only one is.

If one or both legs are not working, they can have a hard time then with moving around.

If a Leg is not working, it can be from strain/sprain, cracked or broken bones, or back injury or illness which is swelling their kidneys.


What do the poops look like? Color and consistancy and size? and how many so far all tolled?


Be nice if we had some members there in Bilboa...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

It was so nice to see these messages this morning. The pigeon slept well I think and this morning I took a good look at it. There is tension on the legs and they appear to be fine when it tried to walk. One of the wings has tension when I tried to lift it every so slightly, the other is limp, so I think its wing is broken. If one wing is broken will this cause the bird to be unable to walk very well. It has no balance, but the legs are good. It has pooped 3 times since last night when I when to bed. Mostly normal green and white and another that was left in the box where she slept was yellowish. This morning they appear to look more like my cockatiels just green and white. I wrapped the one wing around the body to keep it immobile and it did drink a bit this morning as well, but not too much. It is back in the box resting and I will give it seed and a bowl of water once I get to the local cooperativo to get a small cage. Larry, if you get in touch with the women who set up the rescue facility in Bilbao, let me know.I am going to do my homework today to see if there is any other facility for birds. I will get photos posted today as well. If theres isn't a place for me to take it, what is the best way to treat the broken wing?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdgirls,



A Wing can sag from being strained, bruised, sprained, or from a cracked bone or a broken bone or a pulled muscle or pulled tendon.

If you hold the Pigeon more or less upright and with his underside facing you, and tilt him back away from you a little, he will naturally spread his wings somewhat, and you can visually look at the bones, as well as ( with an assitant ) open the Wing fully and use your finger tips to feel them gently for any swollen, discolored, injured, abraded or broken places. Bones which are actually broken across, or broken in two, will not be hard to determine.

Bruises will usually appear 'Green'...


Anyway, if nothing seems broken, you can merely tape together the tips of the long Primary Feathers...tape them together over the small of his back...and this will support the Wing somewhat well.

If his legs are not strong enough, this will not be a good measure, since if he falls over he will not be as able to right himself if his Wings are taped in that way.


If you tape his Wing tips like this, see if both Wings hang the same, or, whether the injured one is 'low' in it's front area, which might mean he has an injury or break close to the Body there, which can be harder to see or feel.


He should be provided with Bird Seed, and small kinds are fine, such as Parakeets or Finches eat.

And Water too of course...


If his poops which were 'green'...if you can take one and rub it into some white paper with your finger tip...if it is merely like paint, it is 'bile' which suggests he has been starving.

If the poop is fiberous and not like a dye or paint, then he had managed to be finding some food recently.

White Urates are what we like to hear about...

'Yellow' Urates are understood to signal a Kidney infeciton or illness of some sort, with 'Canker' being a usual one for the association, at least here anyway where I live.


If you can check in his Throat under a good light...once you have him stabele, you can gently wrap him in a small towell to restrain him, and spigot him between your knees as you sit...and opening his Beak, look down into his Throat and see if it is entirely pink, or, if not see if there are any yellowish sorts of things in their on the sides or back area.


Check his little Butt - aka 'Vent' - also to make sure the Feathers there are clean and not clogged up or stained 'yellow'...



Best wishes!


Best wishes to your little Spanish Pigeon Buddy too...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi birdgirls, 



...all in all, a healthy Pigeon, even with the worst Broken Wing, will be walking around just fine ( unless his Legs, or lower Back are also injured) .


Starvation and dehydration, resultant of injury which prevents forraging...or when privaiton leads sometimes to mild or transitory illness, also, can cause them to be quite weak or un-coordinated.

Probably, if you have any of those little Salt and Sugar packets...dissolve a good pinch of each into a small Glass of tepid Water and use that for his drinking water.


If you can get some Apple Cider Vinegar, add a few good drops of that also to the small Glass worth.


Oppps...gotta run...

Phil
l v


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

Well I am a bit more confused today. I really observed it this morning and at first I thought one of the wings was broken, but it did move it so it just may be very fatigued. I am going to look at the other things that were just mentioned and thank for the advice. When it did eat seed this morning, it did tend to throw its head back although not every time it pecked at the seed. I don't know what this means. Maybe PMV as several have mentioned. I don't know if this is the case but I will continue to see what I can do and take the advice you all have given me thus far. If it is a virus or PMV what type of medication is needed?


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello birdgirls, 

Thanks for the info, Phil. I learned something new.

Birdgirls, I don't think Fr. Brunner and her animal shelter was in Bilbao, think it was more southerly, but don't know conclusively. Just thought since she had been in Spain she would have some names of organizations and such for leads. This has been a while ago, so she may not have many suggestions. She is now active daily in a hospice for terminally ill, and rescues stray cats and has them spayed and neutered and adopted out. 

Can you determine the age of the pigeon? Is it an adult, with white nares (the part over the upper beak, near the eyes?

When I rescued my male pigeon *Wieteke* as a baby two years ago last week, he had no use of his legs. They seemed totally dead, and I didn't know if he would ever walk again, or have any use of them whatsoever. He was affected by paratyphoid/salmonellosis as best as I can determine, treated with antibiotic cotrim for 5 days, and now he walks okay, just can't lift his left foot for grabbing, but can grab with it. Walks on the outer part of his left ankle, with his foot turned under. Pays no attention to it. I mention this because this disease can affect the wings and the legs, paralyzing one or all of them. 

In our time zone, there is Miriam/myrpalom in Belgium, who speaks English; a person in South Africa, and of course the English and Irish, one hour later in time zones. Phil/pdpbison in Las Vega is a night owl, and other Americans pop in during the wee hours of the night in the continental U.S. 

I also have Skype on my Mac (for those who don't know, Skype is for free computer-to-computer telephoning over high-speed internet connection) , but have used it only once. 

Larry
Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Birdgirls,

If you cup the pigeon with one hand, and hold another hand over its back, so that its wings are free to move, and you "drop" the bird so that it instinctively raises its wings, you can see if it wants to use them. You can do it very gently at first, and proceed to do it a bit more strongly if necessary. This would tell you if it can lift its wings.

I do not know if this would be advisable to do if it has a badly-broken wing; but if it is a bruise or a sprain it might tell you something.

I did this maneuver with *Osk-gurr*, and determined that she had no use of her right wing (links to my videos below). 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1567000137573379789&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-461956628065102672&hl=en


This is a *YouTube* video "*Some Symptoms of Pigeon Paramyxovirus*" by PT member Cynthia/cyro51 in England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWC58llOBzQ

Since it is a virus, I don't think there is much you can do against the virus except let it run its course. Keep pigeon warm, feed it by hand and make sure it stays hydrated, keep it in a quiet, dark enough, restful place. I put white paper towels underneath our PMV pigeon *Mister Fifty* to monitor quantity and quality of poops, and weighed him with a digital kitchen scale daily, usually before his first big meal or feeding of the day. He also appreciated a warm moist towel over his head at times. (I posted on him quite a bit, last year). 

On short distance flights around the house requiring some accuracy, Mr. Fifty and *Wieteke* would crash into things. If Wieteke tried to make it from the floor to a wardrobe, he might not attain the required height, and would spiral down. Or he would fly headlong into a spot lower than his goal. On longer flights outside, the PMV was not so noticeable. Wieteke would fly a bit higher over a level rooftop landing spot, then let himself down gently. Broad level target area for landing, no roof edges, he could be a foot or so off target and one would not be able to tell without scrutiny. When PMV was worse, flying was almost impossible. Wieteke's PMV was of short duration, and on only one evening did he he rest with his upside down, top of head touching floor, while he slept. Mister Fifty held his head upside down, occasionally, over a longer duration. 

Larry


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

Hello Birdgirls
I posted to all my Spanish contacts to find a vet in Bilbao who would treat your pigeon and not immediatly and innecessarely euthanise it.
If you suspect your pidge could be affected with PMV, I recommend you NOT to consult a vet, because they easily freak out when confronted with PMV and wrongly conclude the bird has no chance to recover.
Most birds do recover from PMV.
You have to keep him warm and safely, keep him well hydrated (their poop is very watery when they suffer from PMV), make sure he eats enough on its own (they have problems in picking up seeds) and support him with vitamins.
If the poop is very watery, it may affect the kidneys, and then you should give him low protein seeds... I know wich seeds they are in Dutch, but not in English, so you would have to Google it.
Myriam


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

*Bilbao pigeon*

Hi Larry and everyone,

I took a look at the Paramyxovirus video and for sure this is what this one has. Only this case is much worse. It cannot even hold its wings up and they just tend to be down low. It cannot walk without appearing to be drunk. It even just sort of flips over when it is walking. Very sad. It is eating from what I can see and I am giving it water. How much water should I be giving it at each attempt and how often? As far as food goes, it is pecking at seed and even though its head does that backward sort of thrashing thing, it is eating as the seed is being depleted. Several times a day I take it outside with seed and it eats and I also give it water. After it eats, it is so exhausted that I just wrap it up (it seems to like this) and falls asleep. It has absolutely no energy. Given the fact that by simple deduction it probably has paramyxovirus I guess it has to run its course as I don't think there is anything to treat a virus as Larry mentioned. I will do my homework now and look up more on the virus, but from everyones help, I think I can safely say this is the problem. Poor thing, it breaks my heart to see this. It seems young as I don't see white nares near the beak so I guess this means it is young. Well the good news is I don't think it has anything broken but the bad news is the virus so we will just take care of it and hope it survives and get it back to where we found it. It is in good hands with us and I am so thankful for everyones help. The info given to me and the videos (thanks Larry) and all of the resources have made this much easier. I don't know what we would do without the internet. I found pigeon talk on a google search so this was a good result. I will keep everyone posted on the progress and get some photos once I find my camera. 

many thanks!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

There are plenty of supportive things that can be done, including giving the bird extra B complex in brewers yeast, extra calcium, garlic and more. These things can help (calm and heal) the nervous system and help support the immune system.

Here is a wonderful thread by Cynthia on PMV:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12248


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdgirls,




Hello again...!


A Pigeon can move or lift a broken Wing, to one degree or another, or depending on which bones are broken...


PMV wise, or PPMV wise...if he is having troubles with pulling his Head way back when eating, or pulling it back and then walking backwards that way...you can make it a lot easier for him by doing this - 


Drape a towell flat over your lap...have him on your lap in the low area where the towell is slightly depressed between your thighs...have a small Seed Bowl tilted toward him which is resting on one thigh...so it is at his chest level.

A good Seed Bowl for this can be made of the bottom inch and a half of any to-go Cup...it nees to be deep for it's width for the length of his BEak to be able to peck and not hit bottom.


And, steadying him with your left hand on his shoulders gently, and your palm on his back, so he will not be skooting backwards, have your right hand make a sort of loose finger 'cage' around his Head, even grasping the tops of the sides of the small Seed Bowl with your finger tips to keep his Head down so he can peck without lifting his Head much.


This is a gentle co-ordination of course, but they will usualy understand it fairly quickly and appreciate it.


Once he and you get the hang of this ( and that can happen right off the Bat, too) he will be able to peck 'Like a Jack Hammer' without suffering all those extra head and neck movements, and, in fact, can get a good sized meal under his belt in no time, so if anything, be careful he does not over eat, especially since he is still young and might tend to. Two Tablespoons worth of Seeds sholuld be fine for any given meal time, and two or three of these meal times a day would be plenty.

And offer Water often, and when you do, simply gently grasp his Beak between finger tips and guide it into the Water for him to drink...if he wants to drink, of course he will, and if not he will wish to pull back out. Just guide his beak in to 3/4rs of it's length is all...not deeper.


Water wise, he would likely appreciate 'tepid' water rather than cool or cold...


He might have PMV and a strained or injured Wing...


If he has made it this far, most likely he will indeed live, and, to whatever extent, recover...and he might recover fully.


If PMV, this can take`weeks, many weeks, months, or ultimately years...and those showing such symptoms as the radical Neck and Head 'Star Gazing' episodes, may never recover sufficiently to be released, even though they can manage very well as beloved 'House Birds' who live with people and are kept indoors or in Aviarys when able.


Time will tell..!


What do the poops look like?

And, what kind of Seeds have you been able to get for him?


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Birdgirls,

I remember that PMV juvenile pigeon *Mister Fifty* liked to nuzzle his head into a warm, steamy washcloth (which I had used to clean him off after a messy meal). Perhaps the warmth made him feel like he was snuggled under the soft downy feathers of his parents again, where he was safe and cared for. I always let him control how much he wanted, by letting him be the one to move his head into the covering cloth. After a week or so he didn't want the steamy warmth so much. (He had also been scalped, so I didn't want to overheat his brain).

From a December 8, 2006 post:
He [Mister Fifty] liked to tuck his head into a steamy-warm washcloth, and I replenished the heat from a lidded pot of hot water nearby. I tested the temperaure on my inner wrist first. It *seemed* to relieve some of his symptoms. He recovered quickly. After the first few days, there was no question but that he would survive, would recover. 

Mister Fifty was a real sweetie. If I had a personality, an outlook, like his, I think I would have achieved being the type of person I most admire. I miss him. I think, I fervently hope, that he is still out there, enjoying life. 

Also, the credit for the informative PMV video belongs to *Cynthia* (PT member "*cyro51*"). I merely pointed a finger to it, because I remembered someone had posted a video. Also, I had downloaded a video on a PMV pigeon a year or so ago, but this video was easiest to locate. 

Also, you say that the pigeon is eating, since the seed is being [visibly] depleted. Make sure the seed is not slung across the room, to where you may not perhaps see it. If you weigh the pigeon daily, you can assure yourself as to whether he is at least maintaining, and perhaps actually improving. Also, I held Mister Fifty a lot in my cupped hands, and spoke calmly and quietly to him. Made slow and smooth motions; nothing to startle him. Tried to have a relaxing and reassuring tone of voice. 

Sick pigeons also have flesh-colored nares, not only young ones. Also pigeons who eat greasy foods look temporarily flesh-colored at the nares, as though the white chalky look of the nares turns transparent like dissolved sugar or dissolved chalk. Our dominant male from the nest across the street digs into a greasy _Bratwurst_ tossed out by a neighbor, and his nares changes appearance for a day. 

Larry


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

*bilbao pigeon*

Hi again,

I just read the new posts and thanks again. Yesterday it would peck at seed, today nothing. I had to force feed it today but only had a mixture of seed with natural oats. I made it a bit warm and runny and it did eat because I had to basically force it to eat, but it won't drink a thing so I have had to use a dropper to give it water for 2 days now. I don't know what to make for it to eat so if you have a recipe of any sort, let me know. I do not have a scale but will get one tomorrow. What I really need to know it how much water per day should it be drinking or should I give it, and how much food. When the one post said 2 tablespoons of seed a day, I know this bird is not getting nearly that amount so I need to help with this. If I were back in Florida, my veterinarian would help me and I could find everything I needed in a local pet store, but here, I don't even see pet stores and the ones I have seen are loaded with puppies. It really seemed worse today than yesterday because at least yesterday it would peck at seed, today it can't do a thing. Between feedings which I have done about 4 times today I am sure I did not give it a total of 2 tablespoons total for all 4 feedings. I am dispensing the water with an old bottle that had eye drops in it and it actually seems to work fine. I am using some pretty crude things and techniques here! hahahaha The poop is white and green, sometimes runny and other times a bit more solid. No more yellow color today. Is this a good thing? 

We have also resigned ourselves to the fact that it may just become part of the family and this is fine with us. Its in really bad shape but we will continue to see if we can make a difference. 

If someone could let me know about what to make for it to eat, how much and how often and how much water and how often it would give me something more solid to go by. I will look now in some of the old posts to see if there is anything already here.

Thanks again and talk to you soon

Ruth Ann


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hello Birdgirls,

When I had PMV pigeon Mister Fifty, I would take corn kernels and dried peas and count them as I put them into his mouth. He would get them down.

Popcorn has moisture in it, and so do seeds. Some pigeons I watch seem to drink very little. If his poops come out moist enough, frequently enough, and he is not burning extra calories in exercise (and therefore needing to dissipate that extra heat) he is probably getting adequate water. I used a small 1-ml syringe (used for allergy shots and insulin injections and such). I used large seeds because his struggling also took a toll on him.

I would try to get 10-15 seeds in him at a tme. Sometimes made it up to twenty. 

I had seeds from a racing pigeon mix of seeds. 

Corn has enough fat, will help him put on weight. I also used vitgin olive oil to help coat the seeds sometimes.

He does not need as much as an active pigeon, but needs to put on weight probably.

Mister Fifty struggled more out of excitement than out of a desie to not eat. Of course, he was not in control, wouldn't be able to keep food or liquid from going down the wrong hole, so would resist for that reason also.

Cynthia also had a YouTube video on how to tube-feed a pigeon. Will locate it and add link to this post.
(under cyro51)

hand feeding pigeon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulTENCRFvU

tube feeding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1SO0ZJoow

Here is a link to Google video PMV dove *Popeye*.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2329822154391392079

Correction: I always thought Popeye had PMV. I had downloaded the video a long time ago. Maybe he had seizures from something else, or anxiety attacks. I'm not too clear on the source of his problems. I know I liked watching the videos. On a part of one of the video clips, it showed him flying backwards off the table, but I could never re-locate that clip. Maybe it was cut off for maximum video upload size.

Green poops, olive green colored, are GOOD.

Larry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

birdgirls said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I just read the new posts and thanks again. Yesterday it would peck at seed, today nothing. I had to force feed it today but only had a mixture of seed with natural oats. I made it a bit warm and runny and it did eat because I had to basically force it to eat, but it won't drink a thing so I have had to use a dropper to give it water for 2 days now. I don't know what to make for it to eat so if you have a recipe of any sort, let me know. I do not have a scale but will get one tomorrow. What I really need to know it how much water per day should it be drinking or should I give it, and how much food. When the one post said 2 tablespoons of seed a day, I know this bird is not getting nearly that amount so I need to help with this. If I were back in Florida, my veterinarian would help me and I could find everything I needed in a local pet store, but here, I don't even see pet stores and the ones I have seen are loaded with puppies. It really seemed worse today than yesterday because at least yesterday it would peck at seed, today it can't do a thing. Between feedings which I have done about 4 times today I am sure I did not give it a total of 2 tablespoons total for all 4 feedings. I am dispensing the water with an old bottle that had eye drops in it and it actually seems to work fine. I am using some pretty crude things and techniques here! hahahaha The poop is white and green, sometimes runny and other times a bit more solid. No more yellow color today. Is this a good thing?
> 
> ...



Hi Ruth Ann, 


I already have given you quite a bit of information which your presewnt questions do not seem to recall.


Please review the several posts I had made for you in this thread.

In them are various mentions which will both clearify present options, and, form a basis for further information.



Also, cooked foods are not good, just use plain raw Seeds, Oats or kindred.


Did you establish then whether the 'green' in his poops is 'Bile' or fecal matter?


Have you mixed the Salt and Sugar into his Water, and, offered the Water "tepid"? Gently guiding his Beak into it with your finger tips?


Anyway, please, go back and review the posts I had written for you, and then it will be much easier to continue from here.


Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


Five adult Pigeons here, in the Southern Mojave, whose Lives for now are indoors, will drink a Quart of Water a day, or more.

Wild or feral Pigeons freely about their outdoor occupations, will drink more than that.


The more arid a region, the warmer the clime or Season, the more Water a Pigeon will drink.

The moisture contained in Seeds ( and this will vary with sustained ambient humidity to which the Seeds are adjusted ) here, would not be remotely enough to let them Live.

Just so you know...


Best wishes!



Phil
l v


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

Hi there,
We took care of a pigeon with PMV, definitely couldn't self-feed. If you don't have baby bird formula, then feed the pigeon soaked puppy chow (soaked in warm water till soft not too mushy). We've also fed thawed frozen peas and corn and large seeds by hand. You just wrap the bird in a towel, open the beak with one hand, and put the food towards the back of the mouth with the other, usually about 25 pieces twice a day.
Let us know how it goes!
Sabina


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Thirsty birds?*

Howdy Phil,

Being from Texas, I could easily down a quart or two (1-2 liters) of iced tea at a meal.

Amount of water a person or animal needs can be scientifically and precisely determined, but most of us don't feel the need to do so. We just drink when we need to. Many don't drink enough, as thirst is not always the best indicator of need. (I have a copy of the original study, published in a book during or after WWII, _Man in the Desert_ (?) which laid to rest once and for all many of the myths surrounding the human body's need for water.

Very simply put, you need enough water to keep your brain from overheating, and your body functioning. And if you wish to measure it in calories or kilojoules or BTU's, British Thermal Units, it can be done.

I was surprised, nevertheless, when you said a pigeon can use up 200 ml of water a day, but I can believe it. Also, wild pigeons usually have access to seeds which are tougher and more dried-out. Maybe that's another reason why our local street pigeons go after soft white bread, pizza, pita, and the like.

What surprises me even more is when I have a "captive" pigeon with a known amount of water available to it, and he drinks only a tablespoon of the water per day, a some pigeons none at all for several days at a stretch (and I make sure they always have much more available than they consume).

Many Germans don't drink enough fluids. I know a woman who had her daily two or tree cups of tea, nothing more, and a small lunch, in a well-heated and dry (steam radiator heating) who wrecked her car on the way home from work after passing out or fainting (from low blood pressure).

And every fall, many people we know come down with sore throats at the first change of weather, with central heating turned up, and dried-out mucus membranes. Public transportation is usually heated with dry, forced-air electric heaters. I usually carry around a camper's thermos or water bottle.

I was in Madrid for almost a week one summer a couple of years ago, and the differences in available foods in the local bars and supermarkets was remarkable. The terrain from the air was very different from that of Germany also. Very dry. Many olive groves. On the return trip, we flew over the area where Ruth Ann is. Saw Portugal on one side, the Pyrenees, later Paris. What's readily stocked, inexpensive, and available in the supermarket or market can vary quite a bit. Want _Oreo_ cookies? Better have them mailed to you. _Aunt Jemima's_ pancake syrup (any kind at all, or any brand whatsoever)? Better know someone at a military base. Much easier to get a small bottle of pure maple syrup, and probably cheaper.

You once mentioned a berry (name?) you favored for your birds, and after getting a translation I found only a jar of jelly for human consumption at a health food store _(Reformhaus)_ made with that berry. Cashier said they used to stock the berries, but nobody bought them. At a Chinese food store the proprietress once said that she ate all the fresh produce which wasn't sold, so after a while she didn't stock too much of some things she tired of easily. 

Anyways, it's good to hear from you. Have patience with the PT pigeon "novitiates." Sometimes trying to figure out which end of the pigeon produces the poops is an accomplishment in itself for many. 

Best regards,

Larry


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

Hello to everyone,

I was awake at about 8:30 and went in to get the bird out of its box shortly there after and noticed that it did not open its eyes so I sat down with it and it was breathing very heavily and slowly and when I was petting its head, I did notice it was colder than before. For two days it had been wrapped in a warm towel and with my daugher on her bed or in its box at night and this seemed to be sufficient. I held it for a few minutes and concluded that this bird was not gong to make it much longer. It stopped breathing and then it moved its head and opened its eyes and then that was the end. It died within about 10 minutes of me taking it out of its box this morning. It was quite sad but judging by its condition yesterday I was not very optomistic. Maybe we did too little too late, or maybe it had such a severe case of this virus that it was inevitable, we are not sure this morning.

This has been a very enlightening experience for my daughter and me and we want to thank you all for all of the information and support. We love all birds and always have fed the city pigeons but this certainly gives us a totally different perspective about pigeons and the fragility of all living creatures. We wouldn't hesitate to rescue another pigeon or bird. I have always rescued animals since I was a child and have continued to do so as an adult so it was nice to see my daughter has the same thing inside of her. 

Best regards to all and thank you all again so much. 

Ruth Ann and Addy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


Probably a good rule of thumb for a person, is for every 100 pounds they weigh, they should pee out 3 Quarts in 24 hours.

If not sure, they can pee into a Jug or other and see how they are managing, regardless the clime...

Less than that, and they will have problems or degenerative illness.


Birds, I dunno...

Some Pigeon convelesents here will drink very little, and some will drink what for here is a 'normal' amount. The ones who drink too little, I worry about and sometimes tube more into them...and or I tube electrolytes into them.

I seldom drink enough Water, and have to constantly try and remind myself.


I can drink two to three Gallons a day if working hard here in Summer...and I weigh somewhat less than 150 lbs...and at the end of the day I will have peed a teacup worth. So, I did not drink enough even at that...


Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Larry, 


"Goji Berrys"


Any palatable small Berry, fresh or dried, will be fine for them.

Some have higher rankings for Nutrition and or Antioxidants and other benifits.


Lingonberrys I am sure would be excellent for them...and I am sure you have those there...


I wish I had some here! Sounds so yummy...

Phil
l v


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Ruth Ann and Addy, 



Oh...I am sorry to hear this.


You two were such great Troopers, rallying as you have while on a trip and all...


You sure did a swell try with it.


PPMV, especially for the young aqdults it seems, can be quite lethal, in spite of one's gestures of suportive care.

Other illnesses or injurys which may be taken to resemble PPMV symptoms, similarly, can be lethal and take some days befor the Pigeon finds the end.


I am very proud of your efforts, and glad to hear you are not daunted.


These are such charming Birds, and anything we may learn about aiding them in their perils and mis-adventures is very valuable for any occasion of finding one in distress or compromise.


Now that you know the Forum here, I hope you will Post a Thread again when you have one to care for or to pull-through some difficult time.



Best wishes..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## myrpalom (Aug 12, 2004)

I am so sorry you lost him.
Sometimes when you find a city pigeon, it is beyond help.
But you did everything within your power and gave him warmth and love in his short life. Thank you for caring for him, and for feeding the pigeons in Bilbao.
Myriam


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you lost him. You did a great job, it just wasn't meant to be. It was too late for him.
Thank you for your efforts in trying to save him.

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

So sorry you lost him, Ruth Ann and Addy. 

I have had several pass away in my hands, and it is really a moment one remembers. Communication is at its very basic level, that of feeling and compassion. 

Maybe give him a name, for future reference when you discuss him. You will probably be visiting here again, when you come across another bird or pigeon in need. But, a name is not necessary, if you don't feel like it. There are times for silence, no words, only feelings.

It was nice to get to know you a little bit. We hope to see more of you here. Maybe you can build up a small rescue kit. There are many excellent pigeon supplies made in Belgium. 

You might want to check out this video clip, _Marathon in the Sky_, about racing pigeons and the world of pigeons (I downloaded it onto my computer, 170 mb).

http://www.canadianracingpigeonunion.com/Marathon.aspx

Larry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Book: Physiology of Man in the Desert*

Phil, and others,

The *book* I referred to earlier is *Physiology of Man in the Desert,* by by E. F. ADOLPH and associates, Department of Physiology, University of Rochester.

It was such an interesting book to read, that I thought I would provide more info on it. 

I have an original 1947 copy of it, which I bought at a second hand bookstore for $2.25 in the 1970s. It is full of charts and diagrams. Has lots of statistical data, plotted in charts. My copy belonged at one time to the Medical Library of Brook General Hospital, Ft. Sam Houston, in San Antonio, Texas. I even have the old check-out card, with signatures of those twelve persons who checked it out between 1948 and 1969. (For some future PT Trivia quiz: How many feathers did Squidget have? What was the first thing Tooter did upon his return to Victor Slape? How many ducks were in Terry Whatley's kitchen on New Year's Eve 2005-2006? How many squeakers were in Phil/pdpdbison's model A glove compartment? How many feathers did one of our unnamed members sneeze out of his nose during a TV documentary?) 

It has been reprinted in 1971. EBay has it listed for $100 plus shipping. years ago.

I am trying to avoid using too many quoted items in my future posts, but sometimes they do the job best.



> This book was first published in 1947, and its good aspects fully justify a reprint. In the intervening years much information has been added to the literature, but there has been surprisingly little change in the basic understanding of "Man in the Desert," and the main conclusions of this book remain unchallenged.
> 
> The book is based on the war-time investigations by a group of physiologists headed by E. F. Adolph of the University of Rochester. The main contribution of this group was that they asked simple questions and obtained clear and definite answers. Previously accepted lore, half-truths, and misinformation were replaced by accurate statements of fact in regard to man's responses to desert temperatures and lack of water.
> 
> ...


Larry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I am truly sorry. Thank you for trying.

Ruth Ann, give Addy a big hug for me. Sometimes it is especially hard on a child to lose a pet and let her know how much her care and love meant to this little one.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, add my condolences, Ruth Ann and Addy. We wish ALL could be saved, but that is not always meant to be.

You did the best you could and were there to be a comfort in the final moments!

Your pij is now flying free and in no pain...

Love and Hugs

Shi


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## birdgirls (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks to all of you. Also, Larry, the video clip of the racing pigeons was so fascinating, Addy and I watched this together and is was so educational. We talked about our experience today and it was sad as we were prepared to keep this little one and get it back on its feet and if it was unable to live on its own, we would have taken care of it. Anyhow, life is unpredictable for all of us and it is the small moments that can have the most meaning. 

Best regards and we will keep in touch if we find another needy pigeon


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