# Parents ignoring one of their squabs!



## ~Racer Pigeon~ (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to pigeons. My parents own a couple different types of pigeon and doves and we are only new to this!  

We have noticed that a mother pigeon will have two or so babies but it will only favour one of the squabs and it will normally reject the other. The parents ignore the other one and won't feed it. Why does this happen? They end up dying because they don't get fed. It's really sad to see. 

Should we take one of the squabs away or no..?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi There, 

It's possible that one of the squabs is ill and the mother knows this and is just is neglecting it. Sometimes with a disease such as paratyphoid, this is common...where one chick is healthy and the other is sick and doesn't grow properly. It can be a long term problem and a parent can be a carrier of this disease.

Is this just happening with one mother pigeon in particular?


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## ~Racer Pigeon~ (Jun 19, 2006)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Is this just happening with one mother pigeon in particular?


Thank you for the response!

Well, I asked my Mum whether it has been the same pigeon neglecting or not and she said that it could be just the one. We also have doves, one of them had a baby a while back and it lived. It had another one after that but it died. We aren't completely sure if she neglected this one or not. It appeared to be healthy for a while but it just passed away suddenly one day. 

The King Pigeon's seem to have done this more than one occasion where they have neglected one of their squabs.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Again and No problem...

This is just one possibility and certainly not carved in stone. But if it is just the one mother pigeon having this problem, she or her mate mite be carriers and instinctively know and/or have the smarts that one of their brood is ill from the start.

I've never really heard of pigeons neglecting one of their offspring for no reason or favouring one over the other to the point that the second one dies from neglect/starvation


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## Heather-Mole (May 16, 2006)

*Hiya There*

I am particulary new to pigeons also......i would not of ever thought that owner and breeding pigeons had so many problems,loses, and sadness 
But unfortunatly it does happen and in my case not so long back i had my doves squab die of canker....... i never heard of this until the helpful people on this site  
So what did i di i went out tot the shop with this mother and squab (it was a pet shop that speacialized in pigeons things......lucky for me there was a man in on tht day tht had pigeons 

Well he looked at the mother and nothing wromg with her but unfortunatly the baby had it  

i brought canker tablets there and then and they arnt cheap £22.50 but the good thing is there is 50 tablets and i have only got 8 adult pigeons so theres a good supply now to last lol.....

But like you said about ur doves baby one day fine and the next death ect.... 
it happend pretty much like tht for me one day doves baby is fine go in the next morining and his freezing cold and hungry

these things are often too sad for me but i keep them warm ect to the end ......and they are waiting in heaven for us lol......

Hope this helps

Heather


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Squab "left behihnd," doesn't flourish because of sick father*

PART ONE

Our eleven-month-old rescued (at 18 days of age, paratyphoid: no feeling in legs, successfully treated with Cotrim) and hand-raised male *Wieteke* and his feral mate *Mamieke* have made three nests on the wardrobe inside our one-room apartment. The oldest of their first surviving pair of chicks, *Number 3*, is ready to leave the nest. The other, *Droplet*, is further behind. I fed Droplet baby bird egg food for four days when Wieteke was sick, and it gave him the boost he needed. 

Since I am a slow (non)typist, and a slow composer, I am going to copy from some eMails I sent to the moderator *Reti*, who was on-line Saturday May 13 at the time I had a pigeon crisis, and who was kind and generous enough to call me, since I needed some advice and one-to-one feed-back at the time (I can talk faster than I can compose and type). I may have to send two eMails because of the 1000-word-count limit.

A quick summary: 

April 25-26, 2006: Wieteke and Mamieke's first pair of 2- to 3-days-old chicks died. (1st solo egg was infertile).

May 5: We saw 1 egg visible in nest #3.
May 6: Full-time sitting on third set of eggs commenced. Weather has been switching between winter and summer conditions. Wieteke molts a lot for a couple of days.

May 9: Wieteke spends the morning sleeping, which is unusual for him. I am not there in the afternoon. Mamieke is rather quiet also.

May 10: Wieteke is definitely sick. I count this as DAY 1 of his (noticeable) sickness. 
He has a confrontation with the local familial pigeon group of 7 pigeons (male pigeon has nest across street, is older, and weigh more). Wieteke is definitely intimidated. Two pigeons land on either side of him on the street and peck the ground. Male gray-barred pigeon comes to OUR window ledge to tussle and tug neck feathers while seven other pigeons watch from the roof-lines. 

Wieteke has a very weak voice. Poops at first appear similar to what he had when he had what I thought was paratyphoid as an infant, greasy olive-green spaghetti in clear liquid with white urates. Change over several days to a few small dark-green rice grains, clear fluid, a dab of white urates, to only clear liquid. 

May 13: I talk with Reti by phone. Cotrim and Cipro treatment started (lasts five days).

May 18: Vet appointment, fecal smear (from May 14 sample, described by Dr. Eller as "paratyphoid-type." Heavy coccidiosis infestation found. Chevi-kok(?) in one liter of drinking water treatment starts May 20, lasts for a little more than a week. Follow-up fecal smear microscopic exam in 2-3 weeks.

May 21st, 23:15: Wieteke has discovered a newly acquired heating pad I set up for him under the 100-Watt halogen lamp. He had been keeping warm under the lamp, but always stood. He lies down, spreads his wings and tails for maximum heat absorption (heat pad set on high, setting 3), and seems to have "seizures." He breathes very rapidly (throat skin under beak is vibrating) and has beak half-open, and eyes closed. If I prod him he is instantly alert, stands, and complains. I watch him for a couple of hours after midnight to be sure he doesn't fall asleep and pass out from the heat and have a heat stroke. When he later stands I turn the heat setting down. He seems to enjoy the "sauna" effect. 

May 24: Chick #3 hatched.
May 25: Chick #4 ("Droplet") hatched. 

Wieteke slowly gains weight, voice slowly returns. Seems clumsy at times. 

June 2: 2 weeks after last visit to vet, Hilde drops off fecal sample at 9:00, calls for results at 13:00. Finding: negative (no remaining coccidiosis).
Hilde tells the vet that Wieteke seems simultaneously both better and worse. Wieteke is clumsy when he flies: I don't know if it is from weakness after long illness, and we notice it more because he is trying to do more while he still needs to recuperate, or if there is a progressing illness affecting the nerves.
Hilde mentions to Dr. Eller that Wieteke has trouble reaching where he is trying to fly, and seems to spiral or curve out of control. He has been making gravelly, groaning sounds when he exerts himself with difficult flying. Appointment made for the next office day (after holiday, on next Tuesday, June 6th).

That night, Friday night, June 2nd, it becomes obvious Wieteke must have PMV. His head droops down and to the right when he sleeps, and Hilde mentions that she saw him do that a bit yesterday. I use web-cam to capture a few dark, poor pictures while he is trying to sleep on the wardrobe. Afterwards I see the top of his skull actually touch the ground for a minute.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*PART TWO: Squab "left behind," doesn't flourish because of sick father*

PART 2: 

*June 4th update*:

Wieteke is more careful when flying, planning his flight and considering his moves. He goes outside a number of times. His mate kisses him, and does courting and nesting routines with him. She fed him several times. If he flies in a straight line he does better, Indoor manouevering is rough on him: much spiralling out of control and crashing. When he is landing he often skids off the table or chest or wardrobe, and often fails to make a landing on the wardrobe. Hilde and I pick him up when he crashes, and often put him where he needs to go. He is not afraid to go outside. Today and yesterday he sat in the sun. He enjoys nesting duties, but for a number of days would not feed the chicks when he was sick from coccidiosis and stomach pain. 

I think the nest duty is very good for him. I did not notice head-hanging or drooping or neck-twisting (_torticollis_) yesterday. I think he has a mild strain of PMV, possibly acquired from Mamieke since he gets most of his food indoors, and has had phyical contact with only the male pigeon across the street (neck feather tugging). 

Hilde and I think that quarantining him from his mate and chicks would be very stressful for him, for his mate, and counter-productive. He has never been caged, He has always spent most of the day outdoors, which is one reason we did not have a vet appointment for PMV shot before. His mate seems to be working closely with him, and he with her. We think it may be best to trust their judgment in how to deal with this for now. I have seen a few PMV pigeons over the past few years here, and I think the best we can do is give him and his mate good nutrition. 

I have been observing the nest with the web-cam when I am able to turn on a lamp during the day and not disturb them too much. This morning at 6 A.M. they were both out after sunrise. I had suspected one chick was appearing obviously smaller than the other. I picked him up, and it was definitely so. I fed him eggfood I bought a week ago for an emergency (if Wieteke couldn't or wouldn't feed the chicks). He was definitely hungry. Mamieke fed him later, and I think Wieteke fed him also, and right now at 19:32 I am capturing Mamieke simultaneously feeding both chicks. They have been taking turns on the nest the whole day long. It is not so cold inside, and Mamieke has spent a lot of time away from the nest, leaving the chicks alone, and she has spent a number of nights the past week off the nest, observing Wieteke and us at night during the time that Wieteke has demonstrated increased flying and coordination problems.

Wieteke is again moulting small down feathers the past few days, almost the daily amount one sees attached to the overnight poop production. I have read that feather production is very energy consuming.

*I weighed the chicks after they woke from a nap after being fed, while the parents were out, at 15:46. The older(?) and larger chick weighed 190 grams (ten ounces), and the smaller chick "Droplet" weighed 57 grams (two ounces). They are ten days old.* 

Wieteke has had a wide variety of poops, sometimes exhibiting several types in one day. No yellow urates, however. I think he has been stressed from the territorial issues, the weather, the indoor nesting, the breeding and chicks dying, and several opportunistic diseases added to whatever his primary problem was. 

I have taken a lot of notes (sometimes several pages a day), and observing closely, but not always knowing what I am seeing. 

Mamieke is a very "sexy" pigeon, and Wieteke very "macho," but now a bit more subdued and attentive to Mamieke. Mamieke is now showing acceptance of the indoor nesting sites she previously rejected and showed disdain for and distrust of, and she acts as though she can't wait to start the next nest. 

He enjoys nesting. They often both want to nest at the same time. He lets her do most of the feeding, and he is slow to build up his strength because of the feeding. He has dealt with some major issues in his ten months of life. 

He has given some sighs of contentment the past few days, and she was at the window just now and let out a sigh of contentment. If only we were so content under such trying situations. They are now on the wardrobe where their second nest was (where the first babies died), preening under their wings. (For their third nest they are using the first nest box where they sat on their first, solitary, infertile egg, but they did not use the plastic nest bowl this time). There is a small pile of smelly poop accumulating. We keep windows open so they can go out. Mamieke poops only outside, across the street.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*PART THREE: Squab "left behind," doesn't flourish because of sick father*

*June 5th*: I clean poops from nest #3 for the first time, and take Droplet for the second time and feed him, while Pigeon Luxie "Wieteke" is fussing and guarding the nest (Luxie Wieteke's mate Mamieke is not in). When she comes in later, she seems cautious about Droplet who seems to attack chick #3 in wanting to be fed. Sunny day. At 10:30 Droplet weighed 49 grams, 60 grams after feeding. 

Wieteke seems to do somewhat okay in straight flight; at the last I can say that he gets to the roof across the street and needs one or two attempts to land on the flower box to return through the window. Last night he attempted to rise from the 70 cm high table to the 150 cm high chest of drawers a half meter away (30° to 45° angle flight upwards), got above to about 170 cm high, did a sharp turn and dove head first onto the thin carpeting. I've put some pillows out and some towels for traction when he lands. As long as he can get back inside we can handle him. An hour ago he came in and I set him on the nest wardrobe. He became very indignant that I was so close by. I took an artist's painting palette knife and scoped out a cup of wet smelly poops and damp twigs. A large fly was keeping me awake. 

This afternoon I rescue a scalped, starving, 200 gram (6 ounce), tail-featherless *young PMV bird* from near the recycling containers. His head jerks violently from side-to-side. If he tries to use his wings he tips over backwards and propels himself several feet backwards. He would be flying backwards if he were airborne. He pecks ten to fifteen times to the side of a seed at a seed before he might chance to get it in his beak. He will then jerk his head back and forth sideways and upwards, trying to get the seed too drop down his throat, but tosses it several feet away. We call him *Mr. Fifty*, since I found him on my wife’s 50th birthday and missed most of her party. I keep him on a heating pad, overdose him with vitamins, force-feed him seeds (he doesn’t want baby bird egg food). I hold him a lot and brush his neck feathers. Skull shows; skin seems to be missing. *As of June 24th* I give him supplemental feedings to keep him reassured, but he gets many seeds on his own. Weight as gone from 200 to 307 grams (10 ½ ounces); tail feathers sprouting, and he has flloown from the floor to the bed. Roo-cooing several days now like a male. Stays much in pet carrier to avoid territorial disputes with Wieteke. 

*June 6th*: Mamieke has a boyfriend outside. Wieteke weighs less and is too weak to take him on. Wieteke eats aggressively and feeds the chicks aggressively. 

*June 7th* Wednesday: Droplet weighs 67 grams before breakfast, 80-83 grams after breakfast, looked stuffed. 

Wieteke is pushed to keep his mate and chicks. I keep him dosed up on vitamins and supplements, and he improves. Mamieke does courting rituals, and they make up. After several days Mamieke stopped following the boyfriend when he called. I think he was the dominant male from the nest across the street, and I think his mate may have died, although it is now occupied. 

*June 24th Saturday (today) summary*: Wieteke has recovered completely from his PMV and coccidiosis and whhatever else he had. Weight is good, and he looks great. Wieteke and Mamieke started nest number four when chick Number 3 and chick number 4 (Droplet) were ten days old. She is sitting on two eggs (I don’t think they are Wieteke’), and he is doing most of the feeding. He calls them to come, to the chest where the food is, down to the floor, outside, whatever. They are still hesitant. It will be a week at least before Droplet is ready. They hatched four weeks ago.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Larry,

I'm so sorry to hear your pigeons are sick, but sound like they are recooperating.

Thank you for sharing your diary of your pigeons encounters and your youngsters. You have been very busy keeping house and feeding the little ones for them, and caring for the parents.

Are you considering keeping them seperated from the ferals to prevent them from being exposed to more disease, or are you worried about stressing them more? That has got to be a hard decision. Perhaps you can have them innoculated to help prevent some diseases that your feral flock may be carrying. I think good nutrition is also a very wise investment. You can also add garlic capsules and probiotic capsules for coccidiosis treatment.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Reply to Trees Gray,*

Trees Gray

I have some supplies specific for pigeons, and will be going to the Sunday morning pigeon and small animal market nearby tomorrow, which will be my last chance before I go to Texas the last week of July for five weeks, to celebrate my parents' 60th wedding anniversary, along with nine surviving siblings and innumerable descendent down-the-liners. The market is closed for July. They sell mostly pigeon feeds and some non-prescription medicines. Some things are more readily obtainable in Belgium than here, and they are not permitted to handle them. 

I have German Röhnfried Antiworm powder, and garlic oil with which to apply it to seed (to be used 5 consecutive days, then 5 more days two weeks later, then every 8 weeks. I bought it last Sunday, have yet to use it. Am not sure about using it with the young ones, one of whom may be going out this week.

I put a bit of garlic oil on some millet, and the parents didn't seem to take to it. They drink vast amounts of water, and slosh quite a bit as they empty their crops of freshly-eaten seed into the two chicks. It is quite an energetic and aggressive ritual. The chicks always want more, even though they seem close to bursting. Some seed spills out on the ground, and the chicks peck at it. 

The parents have a choice of Belgian N.V. Versele-Laga Breeding & Champion Racing Pigeon mix (5,59€ for 5 kgs), from which they first pick out the whole corn kernels from a mix of maize, 4 sorts of peas, wheat (which they leave at the bottom), milo, dari, safflower, tares, toasted soybeans, rice, and buckwheat. The mix is 14% protein, 4% oil, 4% fiber, 2,5% ash. 

They can also select cheap cracked corn and seed mix (mostly scraps and otherwise unsalable debris from grain shipments, just as some of our instant tea mixes come from the dust at the bottom of tea leave shipments. There is also red and yellow millet, and black rapeseed, and grit for pigeons. They get probiotics regularly. 

I have an expensive (20€/500ml) vitamin conditioning mix (N.V. Versele-Laga Colombine Colombosal) which I bought several weeks ago and have used to overdose Wieteke and Mr. Fifty. I have to do some studying to make sure I don't overdo a good thing. I used a less expensive pigeon vitamin mix before that, and kept an anti-cold preparation (peppermint oil and chinosoel, whatever that is. Oil of china?) 

I have an insecticide powder which I have treated all but the feral Mamieke with. My policy with her is hands-off. I couldn't catch her anyway. (If she sees me touch her chicks she might leave Wieteke. I will intervene only if necessary, and hopefully without her knowing it, until she is more used to us). 

I have used a small amount of DE diatomaceous earth in the food before they started feeding the chicks. I also have baby pigeon egg food as a back-up (which I used for four days on chick number 4, Droplet).

The nesting situation is a bit overwhelming, since I have a lung disease -- bronchiectasis, asthma, some emphysema, from CF -- and am tired a lot. They wake before 5 A.M., and I am a night owl (or used to be). After September I will probably use supplementary oxygen to sleep better. We keep things pretty clean, but it is work. Didn't plan on things turning out this way. Raised Wieteke to be an outdoor bird, which he was and is during the day. In 2004 we took Pidgiepoo to the vet for a splayed foot, which turned out okay without intervention, and he got a PMV shot during the visit. Wieteke was out the window come daylight, always eager to be on the go. I considered a springtime PMV shot for Wieteke, but he was very busy with his mate by then. I would have had to isolate him a day to ensure that we could make a vet appointment, which also involved about two hours travel by bus and streetcar, and I wasn't sure that the vet would want to give a vaccination. I still don't have German vet treatments down pat yet, since I often didn't always understand the technical jargon. When we did get Wieteke to thhe vet, he was too sick to much care. Money is also an issue, although not the primary one. Vaccination is cheaper than illness, but there are so many "boutique" pigeon supplies available (for the experienced pigeon fancier with many pigeons). I have a lifetme supply of some things that will expire soon enough. I had to try to correlate my web research in English to web research in German, and sometimes Dutch or Flemish.

I think Wieteke picked up a mild case of PMV from his mate or from the male pigeon he tussled with. His mate and chicks were well exposed to anything and everything he had by then. PMV rescue Mr. 50 has a more severe case, and he is responding, although slowly. 

I am hoping Wieteke shows his chicks the survival tricks on the street. An hour and a half ago, at 8.00 P.M., a crow was calling. Wieteke gave a warning "hehh," and the older chick dashed into the nest box. The younger chick Droplet stayed out a bit longer. They are wary of me and avoid me, which they need to do with humans outside. I could drop seed for them to eat and save Wieteke transport efforts, but I don't want them to identify our apartment as the cafeteria (while we are both gone). I have arranged to get some wooden or plastic eggs tomorrow.


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