# Pencil mated with blue-checkered bird



## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

What do you get when you mate the cock bird pictured below (the one with less red/chocolate color) with a blue-checkered hen?









Old discussion thread:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/new-challenge-31574.html


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Gorgeous birds! I don't have a clue what the offspring would look like aside from very pretty!

Terry


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## james fillbrook (Jan 2, 2009)

you will have too wait and see


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Rod that's a nice looking bird! I that one of your birds?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rod*

That would depend on alot of things. Dad is homozygous pencil but if mom does not carry pencil (het pencil), you get all het pencils, some of which show signs that resemble undergrizzle, some don't show anything.

Dad can carry a host of things, dilute, recessive red, brown etc. and mom could be split for red. All depends on what everyone has both hidden and visible.

I have pencils and have gotten some surprises from them but once you get them, you know what's hiding. The babies always hold the truth.

Bill


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for the comments guy!

Henry,
Yes, those two are mine. The one at the bottom is the one I am interested in knowing what children they will have. Both finally decided to breed. The one at the top I named "Choco." He is the bulliest of them all. The brother below I named "Turbo" because he flies fast when chased by a hawk. Choco has poor homing ability while the brother got the homing gene. Both are hawk survivors. They don't look that beautiful now because they are fat. I think they fattened themselves up for breeding.

Bill,
All the children produced by the parent are like them with that head coloring. I call them my black face birds. So we don't know yet?
How about homozygous pencil dad mated with non-pencil blue-checkered mom?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi Rod*



RodSD said:


> Thanks for the comments guy!
> 
> Henry,
> Yes, those two are mine. The one at the bottom is the one I am interested in knowing what children they will have. Both finally decided to breed. The one at the top I named "Choco." He is the bulliest of them all. The brother below I named "Turbo" because he flies fast when chased by a hawk. Choco has poor homing ability while the brother got the homing gene. Both are hawk survivors. They don't look that beautiful now because they are fat. I think they fattened themselves up for breeding.
> ...


The two are both homozygous pencils, the top one is probably spread making more black and bronze appear. Both are blue **** pencils. If the blue check hen is from pencil, then you will get both **** and het pencil young. If she does not have the pencil gene, all young will be het pencils. These can vary from showing flash type grizzle appearance to looking completely non pencil but they will still be het pencils. The hets don't moult out to white like the homozygous birds and their colors appear as more normal. It seems that all homozygous pencils have an altered appearance to the normal color, in that it is darker and bronzed. I'm studying this gene myself as it is interesting and attractive. I'm working on yellow pencils.

Bill


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

You are working on yellow pencils? Is it #2 or #1? (joke)

Thanks for the answer. I can't wait for their children. I've never mated a pencil before with non-pencil birds. This will be my first time and their first time to breed as well.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hadn't thought of that when I said it*

Left myself wide open huh? Yellows are especially attractive, like Saxon breast pigeons, white bodies and yellow head and breast.

Bill


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*Update*

Here is the mom:










Here is the dad:










The product of their union:


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Not sure what the goal is here*

You should be getting blue pigeons from this mating that will be split for pencil. I will be curious to know what pattern the babies have in their wings as I have pencils that look just like dad. Still trying to figure if they are t pattern or checks or what. Homozygous pencils always seem dark and bronzed. Mine have produced heterozygous pencils in check pattern, blues and browns.

Bill


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Lol! I like the Sky Flakes nest bowl! I almost feel off my chair when I saw it!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Henry,

First time I tried that bowl, too! It was an experiment whether it will work. Apparently it does. As you know I covered the whole thing with newspaper, but apparently they tore it out and want to show the name brand. And no, I am not an employee of Sky Flakes!

Maybe those birds will grow up as Pinoys!


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Bill,

I was hoping to get some grizzle on those babies. But usually I let my birds chose their own mates. That blue-bar was a gift from George Simon. Of the four available males I have she chose that pencil bird.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*No grizzles I think*

Sometimes het pencils show what looks like undergrizzle but if you want the typical grizzle, you gotta start with one in the mix.

Bill


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Got it! I suppose the babies will be carrying that pencil gene. My pencil breeders have one baby right now. I suppose that if those babies happened to be different sexes, then if they mate there is a chance of having pencil babies right? I am thinking of homozygous pencil and showing those dark head.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Yup*



RodSD said:


> Got it! I suppose the babies will be carrying that pencil gene. My pencil breeders have one baby right now. I suppose that if those babies happened to be different sexes, then if they mate there is a chance of having pencil babies right? I am thinking of homozygous pencil and showing those dark head.


All young from homozygous pencil x non pencil will carry the pencil gene. It is a simple recessive. Birds that carry pencil do not have to show any sign of the gene to speak of. Some have little hints of it that look like undergrizzle.

The dark headed birds that moult to mostly white are homozygous pencils.
As long as both breeders have the pencil gene, either homozygous or heterozygous, some homozygous pencil young will be produced.

Bill


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

*Update*

The babies are turning to look like 1 checkered bird and 1 blue-bar bird. One has a white rump, the other doesn't.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Makes perfect sense*



RodSD said:


> The babies are turning to look like 1 checkered bird and 1 blue-bar bird. One has a white rump, the other doesn't.


The hen looks to be hetero for check, meaning that she is split for bar or barless, probably bar.

The fact that you get checks from your pencil birds is interesting and I have produced them as well from mine. I'm still trying to sort out just what pattern they are hiding.

The white rump could mean dirty factor. Are the feet dark colored, blackish?

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*If the blue check hen is one that I gave to ROD she can not be carring barless, she is split for bar.I also think that your Pencil is carring check and could also be split for bar,as I understand it both parents would have to pass a bar gene to get a barred bird. Remember this a check can throw a bar, but a bar CAN NOT throw check* GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*It doesn't work that way*

Hi George

What would you get if you mated a het checker het bar to a barless bird? You get checks and bars from one parent. You won't get barless unless the check bird is het for barless and not for bar.

I'm not saying that your bird is het barless, just that it could be and would still produce checks and bars.

If I am misunderstanding what you are saying, I'm sorry and you can try to pound it into my head. 

Bill


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> Hi George
> 
> What would you get if you mated a het checker het bar to a barless bird? You get checks and bars from one parent. You won't get barless unless the check bird is het for barless and not for bar.
> 
> ...


 Hi BILL, There is no way that that hen from me is carring barless the bird comes out of my racing loft and I never in the last15 years has there been a barless bird in my racers ,so if there is barless in the young from this mating it would have to come from the other bird. GEORGE


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

So I am confuse now. I didn't know that there is heterozygous checker. Does that mean then that if a bird is heterozygous for checker, it is both carrying both checker and bar gene? If it is a homozygous checker, then the babies won't be carrying bar gene? So where is the barless gene coming from? It can't be on heterozygous and homozygous checker, right?

I believed George's birds don't carry barless gene.


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I don't think I explained that very well*



george simon said:


> Hi BILL, There is no way that that hen from me is carring barless the bird comes out of my racing loft and I never in the last15 years has there been a barless bird in my racers ,so if there is barless in the young from this mating it would have to come from the other bird. GEORGE


I'm not trying to say that anything is split for barless here.

The point that I was trying to make was just that you don't need this one from both parents. The higher pattern gene will be dominant and it only has to come from one side. In this case, it could be coming from both but it doesn't have to.

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I said that poorly*



RodSD said:


> So I am confuse now. I didn't know that there is heterozygous checker. Does that mean then that if a bird is heterozygous for checker, it is both carrying both checker and bar gene? If it is a homozygous checker, then the babies won't be carrying bar gene? So where is the barless gene coming from? It can't be on heterozygous and homozygous checker, right?
> 
> I believed George's birds don't carry barless gene.


I did not mean to imply that George's bird was carrying barless, I only used an example to make a point. I know that George knows what he has and would know if he had barless or not.

Being het check means that it also has to be het for bar or barless. In this case, it would be bar. The het checks tend to show a lighter pattern than the homozygous ones as this bird does.

The point that I was trying to make was just that patterns do not need to come from both parents. I'll try again. If you mated the het check, het bar bird to a blue bar, you would still get some checks. Does that make better sense?

Bill


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## lance_harmon (Oct 18, 2008)

*Pencil*

Hi i know this is a old post but do any of you guys have any pencil birds for sale? And what breed of pencils do you guys raise?


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