# Am I doing the right things for birdie?



## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi all,
I've been following this forum since my dad brought home a baby pigeon on Tuesday night. She was found on the ground, and there have been sightings of cats nearby therefore, my dad quickly salvaged it. He brought her home and as the only person who isn't working (just left my job a few weeks ago), it's up to me to care for the little one.

According to the speedpigeon's website, she looks about 13-15 days old when found. It's been 4.5 days and she still looks the same. Am I doing anything wrong?

*Diet *- I've been giving her Kaytee Exact, mixed with boiling water and left to cool slightly. I always do a testing on my wrist to make sure its not crazy hot before I feed her. 

*Feeding *- For the earlier 2 days, I used a baby bottle but she was slurping a lot of air. Now I've changed to the syringe method attached with a baby-bottle nipple, and she usually gets 20ml (3 times a day 8am, 1pm and 6pm). Is this amount ok? After every feed, I give her boiled water cooled to lukewarm.

*Supplement *- Yesterday, I added ACV to her warm drinking water and made her drink it twice after meals. Today, I added probiotics into her food and fed her twice (8am and 1pm). As I can only find human probiotics (for infant and babies) in a sachet powder form, how much should i add into her food? The whole sachet seems too much for her tiny crop, so I added just a few shakes. Is that sufficient?

*Nest *- I'm using 2 different basket interchangeably for her nest. One is made of wood (it looks fake, maybe not really wood) and a square plastic one. Newspaper as base, lined with white napkin, and then topped with crushed white towels. I switch the entire nest on alternate days, and my dad washes the other one with Dettol before we dry it to use for the next day.

*Hygiene *- Since I'm at home all the time, I change her towels after every 2 poops. I can't stand the sight of them! She always have fresh clean towels but unfortunately, the same can't be said about her coat. Every feed leaves a nightmare and it's hard to clean her when she nozzles my hand all the time! Is she too young for a bath?

*Poops *- They look plump but I am a little concern about some of them. I've looked at some of the links in the forums and they look like those salmonella ones. Should I be worried?

*Preening *- She seems to be itchy all the time, digging into her feathers. I'm afraid she might have some lice. I saw the product below in the supermarket but wasnt sure if i should get it. Is it safe to use on her feathers? What if she preens herself and accidentally consumes the dust? Is it dangerous?

Anti-ant Duster
Anti-Ant is a dusting powder based on Permethrin (a syntheitic pyrethroid), for the control of crawing insect such as ants, cockroaches, bedbugs, fleas, beetles, silver fishes, crickets, etc., in kitchens, lawns, gardens and round the houses. It is practically non toxic to humans and warm-blooded animals. 

*Vet *- We're thinking of taking her to the vet for a check up. Just to check her lungs, crop, feathers, presence of lice, if she has broken any bones, wings check, etc. As vets in Singapore are super expensive, any advice I can get from this forum is very valuable.

*Behaviour* - She is one heck of a chirper! She squeaks at the slightest thing and begs for food all the time. Is she hungry or is this normal? She is really hyper, flapping her wings and jumping out of her nest and leaving mushy souvenirs onto our marble floor! She used to laze around after feeding time, but for the past 2 days, she constantly chirps and makes more noise. Is this normal?

My concern is that, despite all those in the past 4.5 days, she doesn't look like she's grown and no signs of new feathers. Please advise!

Also, my initial plan was to care for her and then release her at a nearby park but we've been too attached to her and she has contact with too many humans already (we have 4 ppl in the house). I'm a little concern about her lack of pigeon socializing... and there are no pigeon rehabilitation centres in Singapore. What do I do?

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Can you post some fairly close-up images of her?

And, some good close up images of the poops?


Please see if you can be more accepting of her poops.


Just use white Paper Towels to line the Cage bottom, and change these out each morning.


You can feed small whole Seeds ( Finch or Canary Mix) by shaping your brought-together Fingers to function as a parent's Beak...Seeds roll down the trough into the assertively Nuzzling opening-and-closing Beak of the youngster - 


About as seen in this image, of me Daddy-Feeding an older youngster.

This works very well for those who are two weeks old also.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As far as socializing her to he Wild kin...begin "NOW", bringing her to the Park...elect a sensible spot, scatter Seed for the Wild birds, set her 'there' among the scattered Seeds, and crouch down five feet away or so ( keeping your arms still, just stay still and no arm or hand motions ) just you, no extra people close... and supervise.

Keep your attention on her and if need be step in and scold any Birds bothering her if she does not manage to do it herself.


Do this every day for fifteen or twenty minutes....from now till she is about able to fly.


She will be able to learn what she needs...including pecking, self assertion and modes of awareness and response.


Most two week olds will learn all this after only a couple sessions...and be pecking, wing slapping or Beak lunging to rebuke any other Birds crowding them or eating 'their' Seeds, etc.

Once she is able to fly a little, cease the sojournes, and wait.

When released, at say 55 days old or so, release to that spot and those Birds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Formula wise...best to mix and freeze, and then correct any consistency issues by adding more water...

Just prepare and mix in a Coffee or Tea Cup using cold Water...Freeze for a while...then thaw/warm it then in a Sauce Pan of hot water, stirring soon as thawed...adding additional Water if need be.

Never microwave.

Formula should be about like melted Ice Cream on a hot day...and be about body temperature when served.


Otherwise, the mixture is not hydrated well, and will absorb further Water in the Crop and make problems or cause illness.

Hot tap Water is also full of Anaerobes which are bad for Babys.

If having to use Tap Water, use the 'Cold' and let it run for a couple minutes first.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi pdpbison,
Thank you very much for the kind advice! I will take some pictures of her (and the poops) tonight. The one about the park is an excellent idea! I will try that soon. I will also try the finger-seeds method like you've shown. 

For the mixture, I used boiled water, meaning normal tap water that has been boiled and left to cool. Is that ok? But now, I will do the sauce-pan thing, as you've advised. Thanks again.

I have another problem though:
1) Now she has diarrhea poops - the colour is now turning alarmingly yellowish and super watery (will post pictures soon!)
2) She is also extremely hyper. Maybe a bit too active. She squeaks like there is no tomorrow and gets way too excited, flapping her wings crazily and chirping nonstop. I ignore her most of the time, but as soon as she hears my voice (when I'm talking to my family), she goes hysterical again. I can't be in the same room without her going nuts. Is she sick? Is it a cry for help? Is she hungry? What's wrong with her?

Again, thank you very much for your help! Totally appreciate it. I'm so attached to her I want the best for this lil monster. Her name is Krik-Krik (my dad insists it's a dude, but I think it's a she), Should I bring her to a vet to get those poops tested?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Poopy pics*

Here are the latest poops... what a relief they are back to green from the yellowish one! Do they look suspicious?

Will attach pics of Krik-Krik soon. Thanks!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Hi

They are not 'normal', though youngsters wouldn't necesssarily have well rounded, compact poops and a Kaytee diet would tend to make them looser. This poop is from a healthy adult on a normal diet of pigeon mix:










A vet may be able to analyse a sample of the droppings and check for any specific problem and advise treatment if necessary, if they are at all familiar with birds.

20ml three times a day should be OK. Frankly, I wouldn't bother with making her drink ACV water after each feed - it's fine if put in water a couple of times a week really, as it just helps to get the right ph balance in the gut for beneficial bacteria to flourish, and she obviously needs to learn to drink on her own.

John


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks John for the input.

I'll take her to a vet soon and get a full check up. Avian vets are rare here and even so, it will cost my lifetime savings!

Attached are pictures of Krik-Krik. As you can see, she is bald in certain areas, behind neck, crop belly, and under her wings. I'm not sure if its because the feathers are not grown yet, or is something wrong with her?

Am I allowed to bathe her? Should I be providing bath tub for her to clean herself? She seems uncomfortable with the dried Kaytee that have spilled over her coat. She is super hyper, it's impossible to keep her down to clean her coat! And I don't want to handle her in case I accidentally hurt her, she seems so fragile...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree, ACV probably isn't necessary at this point.

1) I want to say, quite honestly....if she is now 20 days old....please do NOT take her to an open space and pluck her down amongst the ferals, loose and free. I agree wholeheartedly with the premise of acclimating, and that 20 days old is not too young to start. But please put her in a cage or carrier with visually 'open' sides all around.
It need not be large, maybe 18" square or so. Then you can just put the cage on the ground and sprinkle seed around it, and the flock will come and surround the cage and forage.

I say this because, seriously...one just never knows what might happen with a loose, rescued baby amongst a flock of adult ferals.....in an open, unenclosed exterior space.
Too many stories of folks who thought they had all of the exit routes covered, thought they had the baby in a safe situation...then something 'unexpected' happened. Could be a loud noise, or a predator unbeknownst to the caregiver, or a jerk of a human passerby, or a nice gust of wind which actually allows the flapping baby to lift. The cage works just as well and provides so much more security. There is no add'l benefit to free and open, but tons of add'l risk.

2) The permethrin powder will work...you can also just get flea powder from a pet store and use that; but I believe flea powder is permethrin, too. Cover her eyes, mouth, and nares (nostrils) and dust her lightly...rub the powder into the wings and body, then sorta brush her off a bit. Put her down and if she has lice, you sill see them first come to the surface of her feathers, then drop off and die.

3) At 20 days, you can start feeding her peas and corn, by "veggie popping". Get some frozen, thaw it under hot tap water (don't use microwave) antil the insides aren't cold any longer. Let cool to lukewarm. Open her beak gently and 'pop' them into the back of her throat, one at a time. Close the beak and she'll swallow. (If she starts shaking her head, it is lodged, so open the beak and remove it - although this very rarely happens).

For her age, about 25-30/day would suffice, break it up into 3 or 4 separate feedings. In about 5 days, increase to 35-45/day.

You have done a great job so far...keep it up. Thanks for saving her ! She's a cutie.

Remember, she is not releasable until 8 weeks old, minimum. You may read 6-7 weeks in some places. No...don't do that...still too young and you wanna maximize her chances, not just get 'er outta the house.
And you must do a complete 'soft release' regimen before releasing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



Hard to say what the poops are showing...make sure she is allowed to drink off and on through the day.

If you guide her Beak with your fingertips to tepid Water, keeping your finger tips n her Beak, she will drink.


If this is a youngster you have already had a week or so, and they accept you as their stand in parent...they will not go running off if set to be among the grazing ferals with your five foot away supervision.

A cage in that context would not work and would prevent interaction, which is a big part of what she must master.

I did not know you were in Singapore.


Candida infections are common with how people tend to mix and serve formula instantly, so that may be what we are seeing some beginnings of.

If you can get real Apple Cider Vinegar, mix up three Tablespoons of it into a Gallon of pure Water, or Boiled Water which has cooled.

Use it for her formula mixing, and for her drinking for the next 7 days.


See how the poops go.


Do not try amd bathe her...in a few weeks she will be naturally interested in bathing, and will gladly bathe if provided with a bathing pan of cool Water.


You will be able to tell by how she is acting with her drinking Water bowl, once she is ready.


You can soak-blot areas which have formula on them, and work off the softened formula with your finger-nails.


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Hi Jaye,*
Thank you. It does makes sense. There are a lot of crows here and my dad has personally seen an adult pigeon being attacked. Unfortunately, he was driving and unable to save it. I'm a little worried about KK being attacked by crows too if left in the open.

ok, about the permethrin powder, the thing is... She's crazy hyper! How do I calm her down? I tried wrapping her in a towel but she escaped easily, and she has mastered the art of neck twisting! It's almost impossible to handle her! Is there a certain method to get baby pigeons to cooperate?

I'll try both the seed feeding method and the popping seeds and see which works. Krik-Krik is a cutie isnt she? Too bad I can't cuddle her! Thanks for the advice, Jaye! Much appreciated!

*Hi Phil,*
Again, thanks for all your help! I hope Candida isn't serious, I'm not a fan of medication. Is hyper-activity part of the condition? She seriously, is one hysterical bird. She doesn't stop chirping, screaming bloody murder! My neighbours probably think we're torturing her! From your experience, is this normal? Or is she crying for attention cos she's sick?

I have changed the feeding preparation into the one you've suggested. Now, I'm warming the mixture in a sauce pan before feeding her. I hope that will help. Her crop isn't bloated though. It clears at an acceptable speed and flattens before the next meal.

The ACV I'm using is "Braggs". Ok, I'll continue mixing it with the feed and also add into the drinking water. Thanks!

She knows how to drink by herself and she always takes the opportunity to wash her face, beak, etc. I think she may be desperate for a bath but should I wait another week, just in case? Do birds drink from the bathing tub? If so, should I put warm 'drinkable water' in case she drinks it? Don't wanna risk tap water bacteria getting in her crop...

Apologies for asking too many questions. This is the first time I'm rescuing a bird and I'm completely clueless. Thanks very much for this forum and all your kind help! I will update on the progress!

Have a blessed day everyone!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,




Miss-Sassypants said:


> *Hi Jaye,*
> Thank you. It does makes sense. There are a lot of crows here and my dad has personally seen an adult pigeon being attacked. Unfortunately, he was driving and unable to save it. I'm a little worried about KK being attacked by crows too if left in the open.



No one said anything about "LEAVING" a youngster in the open.

I had said, PICK A SENSIBLE SPOT where the PArk Pigeons already graze and forrage...scatter Seed for the already wild/feral Pigeons...set your youngster there amid the Seeds...REMAIN CLOSE - like five feet away, crouching - AND SUPERVISE...have your attention on the youngster.

There is no other successful method of socializing them to the wild modes an reflexes and awares and assertiveness they need to acquire, and need to acquire by actual experience.

Cages set out will not do it.


Allowed to learn and acquire these things "now" pays off very well later...where they may be released to that 'spot'.


Later is too late to begin...and you only have a small window left to work with for this.




> ok, about the permethrin powder, the thing is... She's crazy hyper! How do I calm her down? I tried wrapping her in a towel but she escaped easily, and she has mastered the art of neck twisting! It's almost impossible to handle her! Is there a certain method to get baby pigeons to cooperate?


Permethrin...for what?




> I'll try both the seed feeding method and the popping seeds and see which works.




There is no 'seeing which works', there is either doing something correctly, or having no patience or interest to bother, and seeking expedients which ruin or compromise further things.


Either will work for the time being...so would lots of other things.


The idea also is for them to be an active agent IN being fed, and or to be fed in a natural way which they are asking for...hence, the image and info I had offered.


If they are 'Nuzzling', you can also guide their Beak into a deepish small Bowl of whole small Seeds, and, keeping your finger tips on their Beak, they will 'gobble' the seeds just as if from theor parent's Throat.


If it does not seem to work, then try again in a slightly different way, since you have to get your side of things right...the Bird knows what to do and it is you the care giver who needs to adjust or learn to adapt to what the Bird needs...not the other way around.

I could do this with your Bird in two seconds, and, also have them self feeding by effecient independent pecking in fifteen minutes.


What 'works' is doing things in the Bird's terms instead of imposing superficial conveniences of the care giver, merely...while imagining that is 'good enough' so why bother with anything more.



Guiding their Beak into a small deep cup of small whole appropriate kinds of Seeds, is a very effecient and satisfying to them of feeding method, and, will also very soon lead to their pecking effectively...they need to 'feel' your finger tip pads ON their Beak in a way which is like mom or dad's Throat was when their biological parents were feeding them.


This is some of your Bird's desperate frustrations and implorings...is...asking for 'that'...for the right tactile and interactive elements.



Can you get them 'Nuzzling'? ( Asserting with their Beak, asking to be fed?)



Forcing Seeds into their mouth is totally un-necessary...as well as tedious and ineffecient...an will continue to frustrate the youngster who WANTS something else and keeps asking for something else.




> Krik-Krik is a cutie isnt she? Too bad I can't cuddle her! Thanks for the advice, Jaye! Much appreciated!



And, why can't you cuddle her?





> *Hi Phil,*
> Again, thanks for all your help! I hope Candida isn't serious, I'm not a fan of medication.



It can kill them.




> Is hyper-activity part of the condition? She seriously, is one hysterical bird. She doesn't stop chirping, screaming bloody murder! My neighbours probably think we're torturing her! From your experience, is this normal? Or is she crying for attention cos she's sick?



Deficient diet...not enough food, no Seeds, no satisfying feeding method for the Bird's satisfaction in their terms of what they want...often makes for a period of increasng despertion in the youngster, asking desperately for something which has been missing nutritionally and tactile-wise and inter-active wise and otherwise..




> I have changed the feeding preparation into the one you've suggested. Now, I'm warming the mixture in a sauce pan before feeding her. I hope that will help. Her crop isn't bloated though. It clears at an acceptable speed and flattens before the next meal.



Okay...



> The ACV I'm using is "Braggs". Ok, I'll continue mixing it with the feed and also add into the drinking water. Thanks!
> 
> She knows how to drink by herself and she always takes the opportunity to wash her face, beak, etc. I think she may be desperate for a bath but should I wait another week, just in case?



If she seems to want a Bath, then fill a Frying Pan or similar thing with cool Tap Water, set it on the floor on a Towel and let her have a Bath as she pleases.



> Do birds drink from the bathing tub?




Not particularly.




> If so, should I put warm 'drinkable water' in case she drinks it? Don't wanna risk tap water bacteria getting in her crop...



Then boil the Water first, let it cool...use that.

Pigeons like 'cool' Water for Bathing.




> Apologies for asking too many questions. This is the first time I'm rescuing a bird and I'm completely clueless. Thanks very much for this forum and all your kind help! I will update on the progress!
> 
> Have a blessed day everyone!



Best wishes!


Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Another image, just made, showing the youngster opening his Beak for being fed by the 'Daddy-Beak-Hand' arrangement -


I fed about two ounces of Seeds in about 60 seconds.





This is not a Baby I had raised, but, an 'ooops' Baby who's dad then got sick, and is in a convelescent cage presently, and who's mom is handicapped and had not got to the chow line herself yet, so both youngsters were hungry.


So, this youngster is not used to me or to me feeding them, and, we got things worked out in like two seconds.


This is a very good method, please do not disparage it if for trying it for briefly for the first time, you do not manage it right, stay on it till you do manage it right.

Your Hand tilts toward them for the Seeds to roll into their opening mouth/Beak...let them swallow, tilt Hand again, etc...there is a rythum, a cadance, which the youngster knows...so like having a dancing pardner, follow "them", where in this case, the youngster will subtley guide you into how this is done.



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Short Album I had started, showing a 'peeper' out on their first forays for socialization -


If this is not done, it will make for many liabilities and short-comings later.


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/socializing-peepers/



Click on the first image to enlarge it...and to read the Captions.



Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the pictures. The little one in the socializing pics looks a lot like KK so let's hope that works for her too. 

I'll go to the birdshop to get some proper seeds. What I have now probably isn't appetizing to her (black sesame seeds) and maybe that's why she simply refuses to eat that way. I'll keep trying.

Will cuddling and talking to her be a set back if I plan to release her into the wild when she's older? Too much human interaction?

I've prepared a bath tub for her to cleanse herself as she wishes. And yes, it's cool boiled water (just in case!)

The permethrin mentioned earlier is for lice. There aren't visible but she seems uncomfortable and keeps nuzzling her beak into her feathers. I think she's also uncomfortable about the dried Kaytee splash on her coat. If she bathes regularly, maybe permethrin isn't necessary...

Thanks for the advice. I'll continue to try the seed feeding method. 
I hope KK turns out fine. She seems active and strong, also inquisitive.

I'll take pics when we go to the park tomorrow! 
Thanks very much Phil!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi Phil,
> Thanks for the pictures. The little one in the socializing pics looks a lot like KK so let's hope that works for her too.



If the youngster is distrusting or not bonded well to the care giver, and, is old enough to run well...then this will not tend to work well, because the youngster will instead see the occasion as an oppoortunity for escape...and try running away.

So, the method presumes there is a bond and trust and that the youngster regards the person "as" a stand-in parent.

Lots of verbal praise and admiring looks are good to do also, of course...assurances or re-assurances if needed.


The youngster will usually be looking to the Care Giver for cues or status updates or other kinds of communication things.







> I'll go to the birdshop to get some proper seeds. What I have now probably isn't appetizing to her (black sesame seeds) and maybe that's why she simply refuses to eat that way. I'll keep trying.



Black sesame Seeds would be spurrned by just about any Pigeon on earth of any age.

So, yes, get some good actual "Pigeon Mix" if there are any Farm and Feed Stores in your area...and, if not, get Finch or Canary Seed mix at petsmart, and get some White Safflower Seeds also to add to it.




> Will cuddling and talking to her be a set back if I plan to release her into the wild when she's older? Too much human interaction?



I cuddle and kiss and do 'Hand Nest' and so on with any Babys I raise.


I am their Daddy, and I do everything a Daddy would do, and, they all become fiercely independent and the Bond dissolves as they acquire their skills and modes of independence, just as it would with their biological Dad or Mom.


Once flying, do not allow them to land on or perch on you...otherwise, cuddle all you like for now, and gradually ease up on it as they continue to grow and develop...offer praise and admirations and positive 'mirroring' in every way...and respect their growing up as a progress toward independence.

Cuddling should easy up as the begin flying or a little before, while Daddy-Feed or Momma-Feeds continue for a while yet.


One does not want to inadvertently confuse them with sensations or stimulations which in their mind could be those of a Mate...so, one eases off as they are developing, as far as cuddles and kisses go, and or the youngster decided he or she has had enough of that anyway, and you can tell then they are done with that stuff.





> I've prepared a bath tub for her to cleanse herself as she wishes. And yes, it's cool boiled water (just in case!)



Once she is near it, you can splash and wiggle-splash your fingers in it to invite her to Bathe.

She may also like to have water strizzled onto her as she lays in the Water raising a Wing...




> The permethrin mentioned earlier is for lice. There aren't visible but she seems uncomfortable and keeps nuzzling her beak into her feathers. I think she's also uncomfortable about the dried Kaytee splash on her coat. If she bathes regularly, maybe permethrin isn't necessary...




They need to do endless preening...it is normal.

Adding fresh ( non rancid, not a bottle opened months ago which sits on a shelf, but "Fresh" ) Olive Oil to her formula, and or lightly glistening her Seeds with it, is very good for them nutritionally, and also cuts down on the itching which dry skin can cause.


If she had Body Lice, you would be finding them on your Hands from handling her, they are quite visible also, almost as large as Sesime Seeds...and...Lice are very quick to matriculate to any new opportunities.

So, if you have not found any Lice crawling on your Hands, I would say do not bother with the Permectrin or anything else...and to conclude she is merely about a normal level of preening all those growing Feathers.

They grunt or make sounds and or appear to preen quite aggressively sometimes...all normal...




> Thanks for the advice. I'll continue to try the seed feeding method.
> I hope KK turns out fine. She seems active and strong, also inquisitive.
> 
> I'll take pics when we go to the park tomorrow!
> Thanks very much Phil!



I expect she will turn out splendidly..!


Talk with her too...explain the Park deal and what it is about, and how you will stay close and guard her.


Crouch low stay still, keep your arms down, so the Wild Birds will not be alarmed or spooky.


If need be, back off to ten feet, or see...feel it out, as for what you need to do for the situation.


If the Wild Birds all bolt, maybe there is a reason which is not you...so be alert...enter into their mode.


If you have Hawks in your area, be alert, and be prepared to rush in and scoop up your youngster.


Likely she will be VERY aware of the Sky...even yellow 'Down Babys' are very aware of things moving in the Sky...so, watch how she is watching things.

If she hugs the ground, head tilted, looking "up", then something up there is frieghtening her.

The other Birds will of course be very aware of all these things also...




Best wishes, 


Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the awesome tips Phil! 

I've bought the canary mix and she has started pecking and eating them from the floor. It seems completely natural and she's getting the hang of it. But since I'm sitting there, she frequently begs me for the formula. I gently say no, and continue pecking the floor with my finger. She follows and continue eating. Once she's finished the pinch of seeds on the floor, I'll feed her the formula. It works!

I tried bathing her today in a huge basin, big enough for her to circle and spread her wings competely. She did drink some of the water, so thankfully, it was cooled boiled water. Halfway through cleansing, she pooped and I had to remove her. It didnt work out. I'm going to try another bathing method tomorrow. My concern is the dried Kaytee, she looks really uncomfortable and they have hardened. Once those are off and she feeds only seeds, I'll continue the "natural" pigeon bath. 

Ok, now I have another problem. The nearest park is populated with dogs, running children and joggers. I've never actually seen any pigeons in there, and it's way too busy. Since Singapore isn't tolerant of pigeons and if I am caught feeding them, I will get arrested. I dont mind going to jail for KK, but what I'm more afraid of is the officials "confiscating" her. 

My other option will be at the foot of my apartment. I've seen some wild pigeons feeding in clutter (sadly, only about 8 max?). However, that area is also home to about 5 fat cats. These cats get fed by a good samaritan 3 times a day and are humongously overweight. Their agility mirrors that of Garfield. I've seen them try to "chase" after the birds but always unsuccessfully, and their attempt seems half-hearted. I'm in a huge dilemma. Is it 'safe' to release KK to my neighbourhood? The wild pigeons seems fine, and I've never seen an injured one in this area before. 

Plus points - Fellow pigeons, partly domesticated, living close to humans. Close proximity to MY home, and I can do regularly visit or occasionally throwing some seeds to "help" KK & friends along...

Minus points - Fat lazy cats around the area. Possible risk. (But they are NEVER short of food. The samaritan is famous for overfeeding them!)

Would appreciate your thoughts and advice on this. This decision will affect 'where' I socialize KK... 

I wish I have a garden but alas, I live on the 9th storey and absolutely no room to house her when she's a full adult. Sigh.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Oh by the way, KK cuddled me today! 

It was honestly, one of the most enlightening/enriching/glorious moment of my life! She hopped out of the basket when I sat across her. She started preening, and grunting, and expecting me to watch her. I did, and naturally rested my hands on the floor. She walked over and casually wriggled into my hands and sat there. She murmured and began resting. It was sooo heartening! I knew then that she truly loves me! Awwww....

I didnt move my hands and allowed her to snuggle for a good 25 minutes! By then, my shoulder were beginning to ache and I carried her back into the basket, and she sat there, content. WOW! 

Pigeons are the most beautiful, intelligent and lovable creatures ever! No wonder they are viewed as sacred and special. My experience with KK certainly made me a believer. She is just a gem. It's been 5 days and we have such intuitive bond. I will miss her sooo much when she's a big girl....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



Glad to hear you allowed her to cuddle a little.


The appreciate physical forms of emotional acceptence and security, same as any other child or young creature.


Somehow I thought you had a good Pigeon friendly Park near you.



Unless she can be socialized NOW ( you do not have much time left ) she would not do well when 'released' since she would not know what to do or how to do it or how to be with other wild Pigeons or have the necessary shift into the needed modes of attunement and awareness.


The exercises I suggest are necessary.


In Nature, they are fed by their parents untill well after flying competently, where, following Dad to foraging sites, he continues to feed them as they also learn to peck, and, learn to have the modes of being and awareness for being with and tuned into the other Wild Birds.



See what you can find, for a safe sensible place where Pigeons already graze comfortably...since the socialization spot will also be the release spot.


Pigeon parents differ from individual to individual...some spend more time with this-age youngsters than others...and usually it is the dad who continues to feed or preen them or cuddle a little with them or spend short interludes with them, from now till they are flying well enough to follow him for the final phases of their learning and impending indepenedence.


So...see what you can find for a spot for her socialization forays...


Try the 'Hand Beak' for feeding her Seeds where she can eat about as if from a Pigeon parent...


Like this -




Your Fingers as I have mine, thumb on top of his Beak...Seeds in your Hand roll down into his opening-and-closing Beak
Work with her pecking skills, also...


Feed formula also, once a day anyway...


Keep up the good work!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Phil for the encouragement.

Today's socializing didn't work out as I had hoped for. We brought Krik-Krik to the pigeon grazing spot downstairs but the sky turned dark showing signs of thunderstorm. To our pleasant surprise however, the pigeon population looks healthy, not 8, but maybe about 20 of them. There also seems to be a Pigeon-Mynah alliance as they can be seen grazing together.

My dad laid out some seeds on the pavement. I released KK but she seems hesitant at first. I took a few steps back (crouch, hands on the ground, very still) but all the pigeons ignored us and didn't come closer to the seeds. It looks as if someone else has been feeding them (hooray for good samaritans!).

As usual, KK made a ruckus... and THEN! I heard increasing sounds of crow.. and the flock of pigeons and mynahs became agitated (they continued to graze though). KK did what you had described. She seems aware of the surrounding, became verrrry quiet... and ran to me. As soon as she hid under me as I was crouching... a pair of crows started flying and circling us...making a lot of noise...

I was REALLY scared. My dad also sensed something, and told me to scoop KK and put her back into the cage. I did, but the crows kept watching us. In the end, we took cover in the lift lobby. When danger was over, KK was more interested in preening than watching the other 'good' birds.

We will keep trying. I will be super watchful but crows are just really mean! They looked like they were gonna attack ME as well...

Anyway, at the end of the day, at least KK got a lesson about predators. She has been exposed to the danger and reacted accordingly (fearful) so I hope natural skills will take its course in future. I didn't know there were crows in my neighbourhood. They seems far more dangerous than the fat lazy cats!

She is naturally pecking seeds now. I'm still trying to seed-feed her as you've shown but boy, does she struggles! I've tried re-adjusting my position, the fingers, the approach, looks like it's gonna take a while for us to achieve this. She seems more at ease pecking them from the floor.

She's less hysterical now after the cuddle. Maybe that's what she wanted? She LOVES it when I do the hand-nest thing, and the contentment on her face... awww...

Apologies we didnt manage to take pictures for the first socializing after the crow drama. I'll try to get some tomorrow!

Thanks for all your patience and kind help, Phil!
Hope you have a great day


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Well, if that is the reality of the environment there, than you picked as good a spot as one could hope for.


If scared, she can run to you, just as she did...so...'perfect'..!


Even if further/continued forays are no better than today, keep doing this, and she will be able to continue to learn from it...it is still very valuable for her.


Having your Dad along like that is very good also.


If she is not wanting the 'Hand Beak' feeding, then oh well...Lol...she may be feeling too grown up now for it.

If she is pecking now, then, you just 'peck' with her, and that will keep the relationship in best stead...since you are her defacto Mom now, and she recognises this and is glad about it. Present a measured amount of seeds for her, and peck with her for a little while.

They can over eat at this age in their new-found enthusiasm in learning to Peck...so keep her Seed allowance sensible and limited to what you know she can handle.

Just use your crook'd index finger, and pretend peck with it, so it is as-if you are pecking with her.


How cool you have wild/feral Mynas there!


They are such characters.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Phil! 
I'll keep doing the socializing thing with her every day. Is there any way to teach KK to "fake supremacy" over the crows? If the crow 'thinks' that KK is human, will they be cautious of her? Oh how I wish I can teach KK some karate skills to fend those those "bullies"!

I realize how plump she is now. She chirps just the same and she seems to want to cuddle a lot. I really hope she knows how to differentiate between friendly human and nasty human in future...

Can you tell what gender she really is? My dad insist its a he, but my intuition tells me its a she... what is your opinion looking at her pictures?

I'll keep you updated about tomorrow's socializing. 
Thanks a million Phil!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

The socializing forays with parental supervision will allow her to learn different things and to gain confidence for being around and dealing with other Birds.

Later she will move into their mode of wildness and aversion, and avoid people the same as they do.


Pigeons have natural Karate Skills with their Wings...and do Wing-Chops as rebuke or when fighting.


I could not say if this is a male or female...but I kind of thought female.


Once she begins flying, these forays have to end, and then you wait a while before release.


Once she is flying a little, or even before, do not let her perch on your arms or head.

You can hold her on your Lap...but no letting her climb or perch on you, since this is something which could go badly later, were she to revert to it with the wrong person.

I do not think that youngsters really differentiate critically betwen people and Birds.

Once gaining independence and autonomy and confidence in her skills, and growing up generally, she will differentiate critically, and assume a wild mode and a place among her peers and fellows, just the same as if raised by pigeon-parents.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Krik-Krik is a little strange today. Even though she is chirpy as ever, she took 15ml of the usual Kaytee mix and then refuses the rest. She gulped, paused (wondering at the taste?) and then refuse to eat it. I prepare the formula exactly the same way as I've always - mix with cooled water diluted with ACV and then warming it in the saucepan. It's the same ACV water as yesterday and nothing's changed. She loved it yesterday but today, she's not interested after 15ml....

She has access to seeds but after pecking for a bit, she seems disinterested and wanting a cuddle instead. Her poop is still diarrhea (attached) and her crop always flattens before I feed her. I've kept her warm after every meal. 

She is hyper as usual, always trying to find ways to poop around the place... and she ALWAYS wants a cuddle. When I let her, she will be happy and stop making all those noises.

I'm concerned about her poop and sudden lack of interest in her food. I know I should take her to the vet to get those poops tested but it's really expensive and it'll take time to convince my parents to part with the money.

I'm really worried though....


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



Sorry, I had not seen your latest Post.


What are the poops looking like now ? ( Images? ) 

And, how are things going?


The poop image you show could be understood to suggest early Canker troubles...which would be consistent with diminished appetite and frustration/anxiety or seeking comfort/consolation on her part.

So, where are things at presently?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the reply. The poops are soo much better now, it looks similar to the "good poops pictures" in the forum. Krik-Krik is hyper active, and she keeps insisting for a cuddle everytime she sees me! 

About her feeding, she has rejected Kaytee on a few occasion, only choosing to peck the seeds instead. I've done a search on the forum and maybe the Kaytee had been too watery? She takes one sip and goes "ugh" and turn to the seeds instead. However, her crop never seems full. But somehow she is contented and not chirping hysterically for food like she used to.

She is really skinny though. I'm now suspecting worms. I've fed her so much for the past 10 days, allowing her crop to empty and getting her digestive right on track and yet the fella is as skinny as ever. 

I've searched high and low for a wormer and got a dodgy "Nova Chem Bird Wormall". Never heard of it! No ingredients given and the bird shopkeeper kept insisting _'everyone uses this'_. And when she heard that I had a baby pigeon, she remarked, "It's only a pigeon, why waste money!" I took great offense in that! Such is Singaporean mentality! I am outraged! How dare she brush my little baby as a 'waste'! Grrrr....

I've gone ahead and bought wheat germ oil, lice spray, and millets (her fave seeds!) She definitely has mites and those 'sesame seeds' flying thingy. After cuddling her, I get itchy as well!! I've been spraying her and the nest about 3 times a day! I spray some on myself too. I hope it works!

As for the Pigeon Integration Project, she is doing really well. She is both human bonded and also pigeon-aware. The first few days, we left her in the cage as the other pigeons surrounded her, and gradually she's gained confidence and now she's free to roam about with them. The other pigeons seems to be intimidated by this little aggressive baby. She's quite assertive. She angrily pecked at an adult pigeon who came a little too close to her (he was interested in the seeds nearby) and surprisingly, that adult pigeon got a fright and seems wary of her. It happened a few times too. She's one heck of a tough cookie!

The wild pigeons are becoming accustomed to us. They keep staring at me and are now brave enough to come verrrry close when I'm crouching 5 feet away, they trot nearer. Krik-Krik loooves the socializing time. When it's that time of the day (12-2pm), and we say "Come, let's go downstairs", she hops willingly into the cage and happily waits for us to transport her down. Sooo cute!

I'm going to try the wormer thingy tomorrow. I have no idea what dosage I should give her. I'm attaching the pictures here (only one bottle, took pictures of the label so you can read it). In your expertise, what do you suggest? 5 drops to how much water? Singapore is hopeless in pigeon supply. Look at the mentality of the birdkeepers themselves! Very disappointing 

Awaiting your expert advice.... thanks a million Phil!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

And two more things.. 

I'm getting an express order of Boni's PGwear + leash. When she starts flying, she can wear the diapers and be leashed so she can exercise her wings flying about the house without leaving poop. And also the leash as we live in 9th floor and the windows are always open. She might accidentally fly out and lose her way... just in case! What do you think?

She perches on me a lot, she always RUNS to me and climbs up my lap. Is it ok? She doesnt do that to my dad even though he calls her and tries to coax her, she only does it to me... does this mean she won't do it to any Tom Dick or Harry, just the caregiver? It doesnt seem she wants to cuddle with anyone else in my family even though she sees them everyday. Only me. Will she continue to differentiate humans when she's older?

Hope to get your expert feedback soon!

Thanks much!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Update*

Since the last post, I have given KK 5 drops of the dodgy wormer for the past 2 days, but there were no signs of worms in her poop. Hopefully, there won't be any more in her tummy.

She's been eating a lot of seeds (coated with Wheat Germ oil) but her crop still looks flatten all the time. I hope this is normal? She only takes about 10-15ml of Kaytee per day, she rejects them after 10ml.... and then continues pecking the seeds.

As for the Integration, other pigeons seems to _like_ Krik-Krik and our presence. Some younger ones will perch on her empty cage and some even tried to go in! How cute! Krik-Krik is more confident to go closer to the other big guys but she trembles in their presence. Wonder if this is normal?

Her feathers have started growing on her bald areas after about a week of spraying those lice insecticide (3 times every day!). However, they are growing verrrrry slooowly... Sigh.. And she still preens aggressively.

Our little darling took her first flight today during the Integration Time. She flew to my knee, and I made her go back down to the ground. KK is so pampered. She loves cuddling and always find ways to sit on me. I don't have the heart to push her away... I hope she doesn't do it to other humans when she is released someday... I noticed she perches on my dad too but he is constantly present, so hopefully, she did it out of recognition, not _because_ he is human...

She has her own little aviary, in the form of my parent's bathroom where she can fly around until Boni's diapers arrive. She gets so excited to see me when I open the door and she looks sooo cute jumping around my feet and circling me... gosh she is lovely!

That's the latest update for Krik-Krik. She is well. The poops are good and she is active and alert.

I will really worry and miss her when she is free-flying with the gang... sigh..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Well, she is beautiful...


Somewhere around now, the socializing forays have to stop since you must not risk her flying off pre-maturely, before she is developed and strong enough.


Let her fly indoors all she can or likes, remembering to forbid any landing on or perching on any people.

Have her on your Lap now and then if you like, while sitting, but, probably, that also would be best to stop.


Do you have any way of weighing her to find out her weight?


Usually, once pecking well enough, they like to fill their Crops quite full.


While part of me wants to suggest more of a variety of Seeds, other parts of me remember that she will have to be foraging on whatever the Wild Pigeons eat in your area.


Any ideas on what they find to eat?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
I think KK has a fever! She was sitting on my lap and her body temperature is hotter than usual. Her squeak sounds raspy too... and she doesn't seem well.. 

I think it must be the wheat germ oil seeds for the past two days. I've been too generous in the coating and she has been eating them non-stop. Her water bowl is empty too, she must've drank it all in her thirst. I'm a bit worried. If her fever persist till tomorrow, I will send her to the vet! I feel awful.. in my bid to help her dry skin, I relentlessly fed her the wheat germ oil.

When you say "forbid to land/perch" on people, what does that mean? Brush her off when she does it? It breaks my heart doing that... she wants to cuddle and she's very lovable. I don't want her to think we don't love her anymore. This is really tough. She is persistent in cuddling me, and she gets soo excited. Sigh..

She seems to really love the foray time. But ok, we'll stop them for now.. I hope the other pigeons will remember her when we release her in a few weeks. 

It'll be a matter of time till she's unstoppable and creating havoc in the house with her flying. My mom will freak out so we need the diapers fast!! Hopefully, it won't get delayed as we know how uh.. USPS is like... heh... (my ex was from Mississippi and from our postal experience, it's uh.. 'questionable'...) Please hurry, diapers...

Thanks for your help, Phil!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

For the wild pigeon's diet... someone is feeding them bread and cooked rice (even though there are 5 signboards saying Do Not Feed the Pigeons). I wish I can take down those awful boards! But yay for good samaritans!

I also noticed strings on two of the 'wild' pigeons... The "Bully" and another one. I think they could have belonged to someone once upon a time cos they are plump, beautiful and very confident. And it's the way the strings are tied to their legs that suggest they were once domesticated. But they don't respond to my dad's call or mine. They are 'wild' now... maybe KK will be like them someday... sigh..

I don't have a weighing machine, except the "standing human one". It's quite difficult to get one here, I'll look for it though.

Will keep you posted!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*The next morning update...*

Hi, another update!

KK still has somewhat of a temperature this morning, but she ate a lot of seeds and drank considerable amount of water. Her poops from last night looks good and solid. She isn't lethargic, but active as usual. I'm planning to take her to a vet for a check up just in case...

I've cleaned her "aviary" and placed an electric air purifier. It's _only_ been a day and yet the bathroom is really stuffy. She preens a lot and when the door opens, the feather dust greets me before she does!

I'm slowly trying to wean her off cuddling... she wants to hop onto my lap but I keep my posture/position in a way she is unable to jump on me. Poor thing. I miss her cuddles too! 

_Sigh..._


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They can just be 'hot' sometimes, especially when still young and still growing and filling out.


Her natural History anticipates that mom or dad or both will taper off on close interactions once she is self feeding and flying, so, it is a natural phase for her to encounter, and it also respects her progress toward independence and self-possession.


She needs wider flying opportunities than a Bathroom though, to be developing her flight muscles.


Use the longest largest room you have for her to fly in.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Thank goodness to hear that it is normal for them to be 'hot'! I don't have to send her to the vet then (it will save me heaps)? She is otherwise okay... great posture, very alert, pecking seeds and drinking water regularly...

The problem with letting her fly in the living room is she may poop all over the place which will make my mom re-home _me_ for letting KK loose! She has strict rules about hygiene and unless KK has diapers on, she is very reluctant to allow the little birdie to fly _anywhere_ in the house.

She hasn't really flown yet, just that one time. When I let her out playing in the room, my eyes are glued on her so that each time she takes a ****, I'll clean it immediately. Can't really do that when she's flying around in high places (top of shelf, ceiling crevices, etc)... such dilemma...

Thanks Phil. 
Do you have any links where I can take a look at diapers and leash in action? Not really sure how it works.. I've seen the diapers from Boni's website, but any pics showing pigeons _on leash and flying_? Does it severely restrict their movement? Very curious...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

They need a considerable period of unrestricted flying opportunity to develop their Muscles, and ideally, their stamina, even though the latter is not possible for indoor conditions.


Leashes would not only be dangerous but would also prevent any useful development.


I do not know anything about the 'diapers', but that it could sicken or kill the Bird if it were left on very long at a time.



Maybe see if you can find some sort of place for her to fly indoors safely, and under supervision.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

what is the problem with keeping this pigeon? esp with a diaper made just for her... mum not up for it?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Well... I stay with my parents, they own the house and the rules, and my mom especially, isn't much of an animal fan and her word is the Law.

Since I've been diligently cleaning KK's poop as soon as they land on the newspaper/floor, Mom's okay with it. But as soon as KK can fly, it will be harder for me to keep doing that, not knowing _where_ she has pooped. And if my mom stumbles upon the 'dried poop' before I do, she will chuck the bird out!

It's a matter of hygiene in the house. I have to juggle the interests of both pigeon and my mom. I want KK to develop her muscles and stamina and all that, but bear in mind, I also have to take my mom's rules into consideration.

And our housing system, it's nothing like the States/UK. We live in apartments of 12 storeys (I'm in the 9th floor)...very, very close to our neighbouring blocks. One wrong flight, and KK will end up in a stranger's home. And being Singaporeans, most are NOT tolerable of animals, especially a pigeon and harm can happen to my little baby 

So the diapers and the leash are important in order for KK to be able to fly around the house and develop at least _some_ muscles before we release her. I can un-leash her and close all the windows while she flies, but the diapers is a must.

I love my pigeon and want to do what's best for her, but still have to abide by the circumstances we live in. Maybe if I win the lottery, I'll start a pigeon rehabilitation centre!

I'm at a loss now....


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm sure if you contact Boni, she can help you.

Here is her PGWear address:

www.birdwearonline.com

ALL THE BEST with KK

Shi


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Shi!

I've already ordered the diapers from Boni. She is absolutely lovely, helpful and caring! 

I did see MR. Squeak's famous picture in her website! That Superman diaper he has is sooooo cuuute!  It inspired me to get one for Krik-Krik too!

Maybe you can share Mr. Squeak's experience with it? Do you use the leash too?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



Well, you have been doing a great job!


I know it is not easy when there are constraints of family and logistics.


I have an easy situation here, no one minds, and I have lots of room, and I am in an old run down Industrial/Commercial area with many wide open spaces.



So, one way or another, she needs to develop her Flying muscles and to be strong and swift to manage the rigors of the Wild Life, especially in an urban setting...so, see what you can do!



Besy wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
I've been reading the Railroad Encounter thread with much fascination, and I agree with Robert how awesome you are!

From the bottom of my heart (and Krik-Krik's) THANK YOU soo much for all your kind advice, without which I could not have given Krik-Krik the care and support (and lesson) needed for her little pigeon life.

You've patrolled the forums regularly and try to reply to as many distress newbies as you can despite your own hectic schedule. You are amazing! 

Also thanks to Jaye, John, Shi & Spirit Wings for your feedback! Much appreciated!

Krik-Krik took her second flight today, she was so eager to show me... probably been practicing while I was out today. So cute!

Her feathers have grown, she's eating well again and she definitely looks plumper than before. She's grown into our lives, and we will try our very best to make sure she is a well-developed pigeon (trained for wild life but also given lots of love).

However, I think I may be on the losing end from the war with mites. KK's feathers may have grown but I'm constantly itchy and it gets worse at night! I think the mites have relocated their home to ME and it's been awful.. I spray myself with birdspray more than KK! Eeeek! I need a Permecthrin bath myself... 

The war with mites will continue...


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Well... I stay with my parents, they own the house and the rules, and my mom especially, isn't much of an animal fan and her word is the Law.
> 
> Since I've been diligently cleaning KK's poop as soon as they land on the newspaper/floor, Mom's okay with it. But as soon as KK can fly, it will be harder for me to keep doing that, not knowing _where_ she has pooped. And if my mom stumbles upon the 'dried poop' before I do, she will chuck the bird out!
> 
> ...


I see, had a feeling that was the case..... she may very well fly back to you... cross that bridge later IF that happens..


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

YIKES! Don't know how to go about treating mites on you! Perhaps one of our "health professionals" will have suggestions! Are you sure they are mites?

No, I don't use the leash with MR. Squeaks. He had to have half a wing amputated due to a badly broken wing! 

However, although he does not fly in "this reality," he does through "seed holes" (a.k.a. "black holes" to humans), when he is on a mission for the *SPPs*!

A few years ago some of us had a wonderful time doing fictitious missions using some of the member's pigeons (we even had a giant bunny code-named "Attila the Bun," who was in charge of Tunnels!). We protected pigeons from "evil" around the world. You can probably read the adventures by searching "Super Power Pigeons."

We used telepathy and other paranormal senses to communicate and travel. Our imaginations had no limit.

Sending our BEST to KK (now an *SPP* member! ) with Love and Hugs

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Shi,
I didn't know that about MR. Squeaks.. sorry to hear about his wing, but he seems like a VERY happy pigeon who is living the dream life! Thanks to you! 

I did a searched on the entire forum looking for the Super Pigeon Power thingy but can't seem to find it! Sounds like the mission is a lot of fun! Would love to read about it.

I'm still waging the Mite War. Gonna place an order for the Avian Insect Liquidator cos I've read it's one of the best birdspray in the market... The mites are driving me nuts!

Krik-Krik flew up and down today. So cuute! She flies to wherever I ask her to, she totally understands "human verbal language"! Sooo intelligent!

Wishing all of you a FANTASTIC weekend!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Sorry to hear you think there may be Mites!


I know that can be really unpleasant for all concerned.


Usually Mites will be too small to see...unless adults and or also having recently eaten.


So, if you have decent close vision, you would be able to see the adult ones fairly easily, and, much easier, seeing the ones who are engorged with Blood, in which case, it is as if an extremely tiny Pomagranate Seed is creeping along.


Any usual Pet Bird Mite-and-Lice Spray ought to work.


Unlike Lice, Mites spend most of their time on various non-Bird-non-people-non-animal surfaces, usually seeking a Bird or other Host at night or in incidental times...so, it is the various surfaces and cloths and so on which need to be treated/sprayed mostly.

If lightly spraying the Bird herself, please make sure to protect her Eyes and Face from getting any on it...spread out her Wings and get the undersides, and same with her Body under her Wings.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Those are mites alright... I saw them on my arms, those dandruff-looking pests.... itches the hell outta me! It gets worse at night! I spray my clothes, bed, pillows, bedsheets, floor, mom's vases, cage, bathroom/loft, basket, just about everything... but... we are still scratching...

KK can fly a little but not very confident. She chooses to fly to only certain areas - her basket and the top of her cage. Anywhere else, she becomes a big baby!

I'm anticipating... but also worrying when she is able to fly confidently and land gracefully instead of her clumsy manner... She's a doll to watch!

When is the appropriate age to release her? 

I was thinking of 55 days or about when I think she is able enough... but from the Integration experience, she doesn't seem that interested to join the flock as much as she wants to cuddle with me... I hope she'll be alright when she is released. _Sigh._


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S-,



So sorry to hear this...

Mites can be a horrible experience, for sure.


Might be more than 55 days before she is ready for release...every individual is different, especially when conditions and circumstances are unusual or restrictive or limited.


Have you made inquiries to find anyone in your wider area who has or keeps Pigeons?


Spending some time with Loft Birds or the like might also be a good deal for her in preparation for her eventual release.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Hmm... I think she may not be ready after 55 days... but the problem is.. we've been planning to have our family vacation at end of this month. And I won't leave KK alone at home or release her _just because_ of the holiday without her being fully ready. It looks like we may have to postpone the trip altogether!

I'm incurring the ire of my family for KK..._ Sigh_...

There are absolutely no pigeon centres here. I have to be careful who I tell about having a pigeon or risk being hauled to court. It's illegal to keep a pigeon or release one. I have to make sure that my neighbours are not affected by KK's presence in the house and that I don't inconvenience them. It's tough being a pigeon in this country  I hope she'll be okay without me..

She's grown a lot today. Her feathers are growing well and she has more confidence in flying (though only to the same two spots!). Somehow, I'm beginning to suspect SHE is a HE... It's her posture and the way she struts her stuff with the chest puffing out... suggests that my dad could be right!

She/He/Dunno understands not to fly or perch on me anymore. But KK shows her/his love for me in different ways, nuzzling my fingers, and running to my feet each time she sees me. I'm really gonna miss and worry my heart out when she becomes a feral...

It's so hard to let go isn't it? I feel sad just thinking about it! Such is life..


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to express my delight! Since I've bought KK a mixed birdgrit ("Witte Molen") a few days ago, she has been looking healthier than ever! The mites are slowly subsiding, I'm less itchy and so is she! She doesn't seem irritated by her feathers anymore, and now the preening looks more natural and relaxed. 

She even jumped into the bathing pan, and wow, look at her go! She's always had a phobia of water since the day I "forced-bathe" her but now, she just seems so happy getting into the water and then basking in the sun.

She looks brilliant, more feathers starting to grow, she eats on her own when she's hungry, and she can confidently fly around a bit.

Just wanted to say that I'm very, very happy, just seeing how happy and relaxed she is. The Integration today (was a little risky as she can fly but I wanted to gauge her reaction), she kept coming back to me and yet was absolutely comfortable with the feral flock. She just seems contented with life.

A huge thank you to Phil (especially!) and the rest of the awesome Pigeon Biz members who have been generous with your advice, and also for those reading this... My utmost appreciation for all your help and best wishes!

I'm totally beaming like a proud mommy! Also, my thanks to God for allowing me to care for this cute little pigeon and having been successful in the last few weeks. May she will always be blessed with good health, security, safety and live a fulfilling pigeon life!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi everyone,
> Just wanted to express my delight! Since I've bought KK a mixed birdgrit ("Witte Molen") a few days ago, she has been looking healthier than ever! The mites are slowly subsiding, I'm less itchy and so is she! She doesn't seem irritated by her feathers anymore, and now the preening looks more natural and relaxed.



Very good to hear!





> She even jumped into the bathing pan, and wow, look at her go! She's always had a phobia of water since the day I "forced-bathe" her but now, she just seems so happy getting into the water and then basking in the sun.



Indeed, once they are ready, and in the mood, they are enthusiastic Bathers!

But, it has to be their idea, and at a time they elect or acquiesce to anyway.





> She looks brilliant, more feathers starting to grow, she eats on her own when she's hungry, and she can confidently fly around a bit.


Still growing up..!


Post some up-dated images of her when you have a chance.





> Just wanted to say that I'm very, very happy, just seeing how happy and relaxed she is. The Integration today (was a little risky as she can fly but I wanted to gauge her reaction), she kept coming back to me and yet was absolutely comfortable with the feral flock. She just seems contented with life.



Ideal...




> A huge thank you to Phil (especially!) and the rest of the awesome Pigeon Biz members who have been generous with your advice, and also for those reading this... My utmost appreciation for all your help and best wishes!
> 
> I'm totally beaming like a proud mommy! Also, my thanks to God for allowing me to care for this cute little pigeon and having been successful in the last few weeks. May she will always be blessed with good health, security, safety and live a fulfilling pigeon life!




You have done very well..!




Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Pictures!*

Hi Phil,
KK has been very naughty lately. He/She can fly higher and always always tries to perch on my shoulder/back even though I say no and take him/her off me. How do I educate him not to? He/she seems very adamant about landing on me!

Could you tell me from the picture if KK is a dude or a chick?
He's been acting more "boyish" lately... if that is possible??

Here are the picture of yesterday's poop and of KK now...
Let me know if you spot anything unusual about him/her.

Again, thanks a million for your help! 
Sending good thoughts and blessings your way!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi Phil,
> KK has been very naughty lately. He/She can fly higher and always always tries to perch on my shoulder/back even though I say no and take him/her off me. How do I educate him not to? He/she seems very adamant about landing on me!



Just sort of brush them off gently or lift them off and toss them gently...saying "No" at the same time...



> Could you tell me from the picture if KK is a dude or a chick?



Can not tell...

But they are very beautiful...




> He's been acting more "boyish" lately... if that is possible??



Might be a 'Boy' then..




> Here are the picture of yesterday's poop and of KK now...
> Let me know if you spot anything unusual about him/her.



Poop looks good...they look good!


Some Grit might be nice, if you can get any there...Crushed Oyster Shell mix type...




> Again, thanks a million for your help!
> Sending good thoughts and blessings your way!



Sorry for delay...just been swamped here..!




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Increasingly frustrating...*

Hi Phil,
KK is getting naughtier by the minute! Must be a he!

And I think, he, _gulped! _wants to mate with me?? _I'm your mommy you little twit! Not allowed!_ Cute nevertheless... But it's a little stressful for me...

He keeps flying to my shoulders and back, even after countless of times brushing him off (gently of course) and repeating "No" like a broken record... he even flies directly to my belly and climbs up relentlessly trying to get to my head!! Very, very stubborn and won't listen to me anymore.

I'm a little frustrated! He is still a baby and his flying is still wobbly and yet he thinks about mating?? Ohhh gawdd!! Is this his way of showing affection? I'm worried he thinks I'm his wife and won't take a real pigeon mate when he is eventually released.

I'm also worried he might do this to the unsuspecting neighbours who wont be too kind to him landing on their head...

Will they learn it's a no-no after so many failed attempts? I dont want to hurt him, or hurt his feelings _(if they exist?)_ but I do want him to stop for his own benefit as a future feral... HOW??

PS: I did get some grit... oyster shell thingy, from Witte Molen, since he had them, he's grown so much!! And looking healthier than ever! Thanks Phil!


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi! Sounds like you have a velcro bird like my Homer! He/she won't try to mate with you till around 6 months or more. They are just social creatures and right now, you are his flock! Is there any chance he could be a house pigeon?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

doveone52 said:


> Hi! Sounds like you have a velcro bird like my Homer! He/she won't try to mate with you till around 6 months or more. They are just social creatures and right now, you are his flock! Is there any chance he could be a house pigeon?


I know I would keep him as well, to bad she is in the UK, I would adopt him if she would let me, and he could live in a nice loft and still be let out to fly, but would have food and clean water and saftey at night..


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> I know I would keep him as well, to bad she is in the UK, I would adopt him if she would let me, and he could live in a nice loft and still be let out to fly, but would have food and clean water and saftey at night..


Its a good job youre not a pigeon, you'd get lost if you were trying to get back to Singapore


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi Phil,
> KK is getting naughtier by the minute! Must be a he!
> 
> And I think, he, _gulped! _wants to mate with me?? _I'm your mommy you little twit! Not allowed!_ Cute nevertheless... But it's a little stressful for me...




This is one of the reasons why as the youngster is deveoping and growing into their confidences and self possessions and learnings, we have to be careful with the kinds of attentions we pay to them...or, their energy and attentions can inadvertently turn to us as if we were transitioning from stand-in-parent, to 'mate'.




> He keeps flying to my shoulders and back, even after countless of times brushing him off (gently of course) and repeating "No" like a broken record... he even flies directly to my belly and climbs up relentlessly trying to get to my head!! Very, very stubborn and won't listen to me anymore.



Well, maybe see if you can spend less time with them now, for the time being.




> I'm a little frustrated! He is still a baby and his flying is still wobbly and yet he thinks about mating?? Ohhh gawdd!! Is this his way of showing affection? I'm worried he thinks I'm his wife and won't take a real pigeon mate when he is eventually released.



It is part of the possible ways of confusion in growing up...





> I'm also worried he might do this to the unsuspecting neighbours who wont be too kind to him landing on their head...



Much less likely than that he wishes to do this with you personally, since he is partially experiencing you as a 'mate'.





> Will they learn it's a no-no after so many failed attempts? I dont want to hurt him, or hurt his feelings _(if they exist?)_ but I do want him to stop for his own benefit as a future feral... HOW??



If you can be less available for the indulgence...it will help.




> PS: I did get some grit... oyster shell thingy, from Witte Molen, since he had them, he's grown so much!! And looking healthier than ever! Thanks Phil!




Well, see about allowing as much indoor Flying and muscle development as possible, while somehow being less available to his attentions...that is abuot all you can do for now!


This innocent infatuation will pass...or re-adjust...especially if he were able to be around other Pigeons.


In the Wild, even if they may have the potential for these feelings at this age, no one would be available in an indulgent or receptive way, for it to be encouraged.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

KK is a *beautiful* pigeon!! Don't always see ferals so beautiful!

Sure would hope you could keep him/her! Since KK is still young, could very well imprint on humans (and has seemed to!), which could be fatal if released. 

You could also buy a small mirror and see if KK reacts to the mirror. Sometimes males will do so but not hens. Then again, one never knows! You don't know for sure, sometimes, until an egg is laid...then there's no doubt! 

Sounds like KK has chosen you! However, when KK gets older this may be subject to change...

Glad to hear the bugs are disappearing!

Sure sending ALL OUR BEST with Love, Hugs and Scritches!!

Shi and MR. Squeaks, who sends his greetings!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you everyone!
*
Doveone52,*
KK is so unpredictable. Last night he was acting all velcro-like and this morning, he seems to be giving me the cold shoulder! I am glad though, so he won't be too clingy to me... I do love him but it is difficult for me to keep him as a house pigeon, as much as I would love to!

*Spirit Wings,*
I would _looove_ to give him a better home but transportation to the US from Singapore will take forever! (I'm not from UK by the way)... Your birds are so lucky to have the space and a lovely person to take care of them! 

*Quazar,*
Haha! That's funny! 

*Phil,*
Thanks for the advice! As he is a little cold towards me today, I am distancing myself bit by bit and leaving him to "practice" flying around the loft. He's done well and always eager to show me how high he can go. It's a bit strange calling KK a "he" but well.. he is rather boyish... That _look_, that _confidence_, that stubbornness... hmmph! This is how his loft looks like, minimal space for flying but once the diapers are here, he has the whole house to himself (a few more days now...)










What are the repercussions of leaving him alone for longer periods of time? I hope he won't get stressed, depressed or worse, mentally ill like parrots or cockatoos do... 

*Shi,*
We do have a mirror in his loft. He saw his own reflection today and wanted to jump right into it! He didn't want to look away! Is he thinking he's Tom Cruise or something?? Haha! 

The bugs are gone, thank goodness.. though I am now armed with TWO bottles of birdspray... just in case!

Sending coos and jiggles to Mr. Squeaks and friends!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


As long as you just check in on him a few times-a-day, say "Hello" and so on, interact a little in a parental sort of way...he should be fine.


This is a critical phase of his self-posession and emotional independence, hence, some of the prior 'velcro', and also looking or cues from you.


So, sounds like all goes well...

The 'Cold Shoulder' from him signals his moving into his self posession and sense of independence emotionally and otherwise, just as he should..!


I have been through this many times.



When they get to a point where they have nothing to do with me, and have a look of incredulous or haughty stand-of-ish-ness when approached or spoken to, I consider the latter and final phase of my Daddy-Job to be going well.



Usually, I have to gently encourage the energy or mode of that phase or development in how I handle things.

Sometimes they elect it before I have began to encourage it.


Some elect to enter this phase early, some late...every one is an individual.


So, we have to be alert to how we act toward them, and, in how they are asking for cues or testing which way to go, in effect...is erstwhile daddy or mommy a 'mate'? Am I supposed to adapt to and stay with them? Or..?

So daddy or mommy withdraw the kind of energy-interaction-attention modes, and instead, begin treating the youngster 'as' an Adult who is no longer a subject of affection or attention in the same ways they had been....or the parent gently diminishes and withdraws the shows of bonding and so on, where then, by mutual accord, the bonds dissolve since their purpose and use is done.

Where, then, the new and open-ended direction/mode/option is elected by the young Pigeon, the bond dissolves, freeing the youngster to the new opportunities of direction and growth and development as an independent Creature, and that direction constellates and is energized, which is the direction and identity/emotional freedom they need for their Life ahead.


So...


Good going!



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Phil.
Today for the first time, I had little interaction with KK. I think the human may be missing the pigeon more than the other way around! But if it's for his own good, oh well...

The 3 times I said hello to him today, he didn't go hysterical when I entered the loft. Flew around a little bit, and then acted all adult-like. Not much nuzzling on my fingers and then it became quite awkward. When it's time for me to leave, he didn't throw a tantrum or try to wriggle to the door. He was calm and like "Yeah, see you later" 

Wow! I am missing him terribly!  My little baby's all teenager now! I hope he doesn't think I don't love him anymore. I'm so clueless when it comes to pigeon _emotional _feelings...

It sucks not able to let him free-fly around the house. 
Diapers... please hurrry!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Very good...


I suppose you could set him out among the wild Birds with him in a Cage, you supervising from close by of course, and see how things go...if he flails and bangs against the Cage, then cut it short and bring him back in.

If he is relaxed and pecking his Seeds and sort of a little anxious or wound up, then no problem...but, it would be a way of reminding or refreshing his prior experience of socialization to his fellows.

He is likely feeling a little bored now with the restraints.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi again Phil,
What does it mean when KK bangs and flails against the cage? He does it all the time! Does it mean he is still immature or is it a sign of grown up "I wanna fly" reaction?

KK is a sweetie today. He nudges at my feet and acted all baby-like... But he didn't fly or perch or do things that I disapprove of... I think he has learnt that flying or climbing on me is a big No-No. How incredibly smart!

I noticed he behaves all Big-Boy-Mr-Cool when he is up on the wooden perch (and ignores me) but becomes a big baby when he is on the ground at my feet. Is this part of pigeon psychology? Strange! He can't seem to make up his mind to be a 'cool teenager' or a 'nudging baby'!

I'll try the socializing thing tomorrow as I'll be out all day today. 
Will update soon!

Thanks Phil!
Have an awesome Wed/Thurs... whichever timezone applicable!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*KK "Birthday"*

Hi everyone,
It's KK "birthday" today! It's exactly one month (18 Sept - 18 Oct) that my dad brought KK home. She is probably about 43-45 days old?

Her birthday present arrived in the mail today! Woohoo! Perfect timing too!
Here are Boni's GORGEOUS diapers, professionally made with love! We are sooo impressed! It's really beautiful!


























But alas, KK refuses to wear it. She threw a tantrum like it was the end of the world. Struggled as if her life was at stake. Her little legs kicked, pulled, tugged at the straps. Rolled around headfirst, violently pulled herself apart, feathers strewn about... my goodness, it looked like a scene from some war movie... It also resembled a possessed pigeon. We felt sooo awful that after 5 rounds of madness, we took it off her, and she flew up to the wooden perch happily and started preening. 

Immediately after, she continued her lovey-dovey ways and snuggled to me. No injury, no stress, still cuddly. WTH! Just a little pigeon-drama!

She is not stressed at all, it wasn't painful either, but she just REFUSES to wear it. I understand it's unnatural for her and it's probably heavy. I do wonder how Mr. Squeaks (even with his no-nonsense attitude) managed to put it on so snugly and still looks calm and amazing! I'm sure she needs a bit of coaxing, she'll get through it.

Any advice, would appreciate it. Wish me luck!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi again Phil,
> What does it mean when KK bangs and flails against the cage? He does it all the time! Does it mean he is still immature or is it a sign of grown up "I wanna fly" reaction?



It means he is anxious and feeling frustrated and wishing to be flying and exploring and in effect, leaving the confines of his babyhood, and now wants to be doing things, and is not liking the constriction of the Cage.

In my experience, cages are only for sick or injured Birds.




> KK is a sweetie today. He nudges at my feet and acted all baby-like... But he didn't fly or perch or do things that I disapprove of... I think he has learnt that flying or climbing on me is a big No-No. How incredibly smart!



Very good...




> I noticed he behaves all Big-Boy-Mr-Cool when he is up on the wooden perch (and ignores me) but becomes a big baby when he is on the ground at my feet. Is this part of pigeon psychology? Strange! He can't seem to make up his mind to be a 'cool teenager' or a 'nudging baby'!



His location is in deference to these different modes...or, vice versa.




> I'll try the socializing thing tomorrow as I'll be out all day today.
> Will update soon!
> 
> Thanks Phil!
> Have an awesome Wed/Thurs... whichever timezone applicable!




Thank you!

You too!



Some updated images?



Phil
Lv


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi everyone,
> It's KK "birthday" today! It's exactly one month (18 Sept - 18 Oct) that my dad brought KK home. She is probably about 43-45 days old?
> 
> Her birthday present arrived in the mail today! Woohoo! Perfect timing too!
> ...



This would be resented by any Bird who was not a long time pet and domesticated.


Your Bird is slated for release, is obn the threshold of being a Wild Bird, and will be soon as you do release them, as your time as parent, and their time as having a parent, is "done", and, this device will not work or be tolerate by the very Spirit the Bird needs TO be released and to manage.


Find a way to let them fly as much as possible between now and their release, and, forget about the diaper-thing, it would drive them nuts or worse, cause them to get hurt.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Ugh... stress... stress.. stress... 
As you know, there is no way I can fly KK around the house without those diapers.

I can only do so when my parents are both out of the house. Every poop scooped and clean immediately after it's out of the bum. I have done it before... (she has pooped on my mom's FAVOURITE sofa cushion but I cleaned it immediately, there is no trace, my mom is clueless!)... but it's hard to get my parents out of the house!

I hate lying to my parents about KK's whereabouts, and it's tough trying to run around after KK, cleaning the area constantly.

About the cage, KK is rarely in it. It's only a mode of transportation. She usually flies about in the loft. When I need to clean the loft (wash it with water), she enters the cage willingly from the front door and waits for me to close it and transport her to the kitchen window where she will look out quietly for about 45 minutes before I transport her back into the cleaned loft for the whole day. Her time in the cage is only about 1hr at most everyday. The rest is free-flying in the loft.

Even then, sometimes, she flings herself onto the cage-bars like the world is ending. At times, she is so obedient and looks out patiently while waiting for me to finish washing the loft. At times, she sits on the wooden perch and watch me wash the loft. Depends on her mood, really.

Sorry Phil.. I understand you disagree with the whole diaper method, as you have an easy situation (which understandably is the best way to preserve the bird's natural environment/surrounding) but it is hard for me to explain the situation I am in - and it is NOT pigeon-friendly. I have to make do with the best I can. It is not that I am unwilling to follow the advice, but I am in difficult situation here. 

Having said that, I will try to get my parents out of the house (unsuspiciously - if there is a such word), and fly KK as much as possible, without the diapers.

Always, thanks for your help! Very much appreciated! Hope you have a great week ahead! Will attach more pics soon


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Most pigeons are pretty upset at first about the diapers in my experience-"OMG, I can't fly, walk, etc!" I just leave them on for a brief time every day and they DO get ok with it. I know most men esp are kind of offended by the diaper thing-free spirits? But my feeling is that if it increases their liberty and makes them more acceptable to the family(mom!), the benefit outweighs the negatives.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Is there a rehabber near you that can take this pigeon on and give it what it needs, sounds like your too restricted there (even when this is just temporary to let her fly,) someone that can should take over as this birds needs to learn how to fly and get in shape because your going to let her go to fend for herself.....so if you can not let her fly ,which it sounds like, someone needs to give you some phone #'s of folks that can.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Sending *HAPPY BIRTHDAY GREETINGS *TO KK from Shi and MR. Squeaks!

Being in the States would certainly be easier finding a good home for KK...

While I know what Phil is saying and I tend to agree with him, there _are_ different circumstances with different places, people and their pigeons.

The diapers have been a godsend for many and Boni has the most _non-intrusive_ diaper around. AND, since each diaper is made _specifically_ for an individual pigeon, the comfort level is that much higher.

Yes, I think some pigeons may have a harder time "adjusting" than others.

My suggestion would be (providing you are "dressing" KK properly - although with Boni's simple design, it's hard to get things wrong): take things slow and easy. Each day (or even a few times a day, if possible), put KK's diaper on. 

Just let her fly, walk or whatever...the diaper won't keep her from flying or walking so just let her wear for awhile...then take off.

Also, be sure not to velcro the edges on the top of her back too tightly.

I'm sure she will adjust with time...and,yes, they do tend to peck at the straps because it's so strange, different and new. 

Please keep us updated. KK just may need more time than some...

Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone!

After much consideration (and talking to Boni), I have decided to forgo the diapers. I am managing KK's living room escapade well and she seems to be holding them in when she is outside. Such a lovely birdie! She seems to _know_ that pooping in the living room is a big No-No, and only lets out 3 in the hour that we spent in the living room. The 3 poops are manageable and cleaning them is easy.

So I guess Phil is right, since she has to be a feral in future, she needs to learn how to fly unencumbered. As humans, we need to adapt to her instead of the other way around. If my mom finds out, she'll only be mad for a while, I can manage _that_ too I guess...

Thanks Doveone52, you are sooo very lucky to be able to co-habit with the lovely Homer, and he is also so lucky to be cared by a doting mommy! Wish I could do that! 

And Spiritwings, in my previous posts, I have mentioned that there are no bird rehabbers in Singapore, and there is only _one_ avian vet in the entire country. That's how pathetic it is for birds here. I'll be hauled to prison if the authorities knew I'm keeping a PIGEON in my apartment. So yeah, as miserable as it may seem, I am still the best bet for Krik-Krik's well-being in this country. If she was in the States, I'm sure there are many pigeon angels such as yourself, who can take care of her better than I could. I'm sure your birds are also really lucky to be living with you

And saving the best for last, *THANK YOU SHI & MR.SQUEAKS!* You both are lovely! I was proudly showing Mr. Squeak's "Super Power Pigeon" picture (from the PGWear brochure) to my family and they marveled at how cute he is! 

I agree that Boni is absolutely lovely! She is caring, knowledgeable, helpful and very professional! It was great working with her for KK's diapers. I guess KK is too emotional for diapers and as much as we both would like to see a success in the diaper fitting, perhaps they are not for KK, or KK is too young for it? It could also be my mistake in the measurements as I was too hasty in measuring her. And since I am as clumsy as the bird, perhaps my method of fitting her is also wrong. Oh well...

In the end, the objective for KK is to fly free in the wild. Even though I really wish to keep her, I'm seeing a more feral attitude in her every day, so I will go with her flow.

Again, thanks everyone! Here are some pictures of Krik-Krik's secret escapade in the living room... _don't tell my parents, these pictures are evidence... oops!_ hehe...


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

My, how time passes so quickly, Beautiful Bird , well done


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Thanks everyone!
> 
> After much consideration (and talking to Boni), I have decided to forgo the diapers. I am managing KK's living room escapade well and she seems to be holding them in when she is outside. Such a lovely birdie! She seems to _know_ that pooping in the living room is a big No-No, and only lets out 3 in the hour that we spent in the living room. The 3 poops are manageable and cleaning them is easy.
> 
> ...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



You have a very challenging situation!


I do have it easy, no moms or anyone else here!


During indoor fly-times, maybe you can spread an old Sheet or two, or other fabric or Towels over any critical indoor items..?


Best wishes!



Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hello again!

Quazer, thanks for the encouragement! My picture isn't as cool as your squirrel one though! That is photography at its best! Your lawn is immaculate! Nice place to live as _humans_, pigeons AND squirrels!

Spirit, thanks for the info! After calling SPCA and several vets, nobody knew _anything_ about bird rehabilitation centres here! I called ACRES and have now registered as a volunteer. Their stance on baby birds, they will give care, but will release them ASAP. They won't wait till they develop wing muscles or anything, but as soon as the bird can fly a little, they will let them go.

However, they are short of manpower and won't be able to help much at the moment. They don't have a recommended space to fly the birds (in their own words "any park will do" and from the conversation, where they have used to release birds, there are a couple of cats?!) They agreed that perhaps the best place to release KK would still be my neighbourhood which KK is most familiar with.

I will fly KK out in the living room as much as I possibly can. I think it's important for her to be really ready, instead of "just getting her out of the house and into the wild". From the recent living room escapade, she is more interested in hopping to the table and watching tv than flying higher and further. And no, she isn't as tame as other house pigeons. She is quite feral in her own way... which makes me very happy that she may be ready for the wild soon (there are no tvs in the wild, dear)

Thanks again Phil, will do the towel thing. 
My mom loves everything in the house, so the whole house will be covered with towels! I just bought KK a new toy (as I don't spend much time with her as I used to) so I hope she likes it. It's just a silly 3-mirror-thingy with a bell that cost $4. Haha!

Thanks again, everyone!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Quazer, thanks for the encouragement! My picture isn't as cool as your squirrel one though! That is photography at its best! Your lawn is immaculate! Nice place to live as _humans_, pigeons AND squirrels!


lol, I was just lucky to have my phone in my hand at the time to take the pic.
seconds later the squirell was away again.
The "lawn" isnt that good, think it had just been cut couple of days before, normally its covered with lots of tiny toadstools which we just cant get rid of.
My back garden faces onto the edge of a golfcourse so theres plenty of wildlife around, Squirells, woodies, rabbits, occasional hedgehogs, even foxes, and as I'm less than a mile from Edinburgh Zoo, occasionally get some other bird species like herons that you wouldnt normally find in the city. They hover around the zoo at penguin feeding times lol. 



Miss-Sassypants said:


> From the recent living room escapade, she is more interested in hopping to the table and watching tv than flying higher and further.


Ive got another feral i'm looking after at the mo, growing new flight feathers before it can be released. Its pretty timid and normally wont come near, (it still remembers that I was the one that pulled out its cut feathers to allow new ones to grow)but when Ive got tv on it jumps over to the arm of the chair and loves to do the same. Other than that, its favourite perches are on top of the main PC monitor, my printer or CD tower, or if i'm out it'll sit on laptop keyboard (got 2 keep remembering to cover it lol)


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I completely understand about KK...

You are correct...since she is going to be released, no real need for the PGWear.

I know you will be sad to see KK go but I'm sure she will do just fine!

A shame that there are such tough restrictions on having a pigeon! What a shame!

KK is a beautiful pigeon and we wish her *all the very best!!*

As always, sending Love, Hugs and Scritches

Shi and MR. Squeaks


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

so when's the big first time outdoors flying ? and waving good bye?


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

*Help!!*

Sorry it has been a stressful week!

I think Krik-Krik is sick!!  Her voice has been awful.. she makes these low trumpet sounds whenever she tries to squeak and her breathing seems laboured too... I don't know what is wrong!

She seems ok, flown around the house for the past few days. Played with my laptop and being very adorable. But today, in the morning, her voice was a little raspy.. and now it has gotten worse!

The trumpet sound could be from respiratory? lungs? Her feathers have been dropping off too, and the more she preens, the more one or two will fall off.

I'm really worried.
I know I should send her to the vet asap but I'm really broke.

Is this a growing up broken-voice thingy or is it really something dangerous? If need be, I will beg borrow or steal some money just to get her to the vet! I'm very worried...


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Their voices naturally change as they grow up.


Of course too, changes in voice can be because of an illness developing, so, it depends.


Can you look in her Mouth under a good bright Light, and note the appearence of her Trachia?


Does it seem dialated and remain open between inspirations?


Normally what one can see of the Trachia is a very small diameter opening, more like a slit, and it is pretty well closed as they breathe, only widening slightly with each intake of breath....so, if otherwise, it may suggest there is a concern.


Post some images of her poops?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for coming to the rescue, Phil...

To be honest, I am too chicken to handle her. I can't hold her and look into her throat, much less shine a light in! When she struggles, it will break my heart... I can't do it...

Should I send her to see a vet instead? I'll try to find the money... I'm having nightmares about her having canker, and it bugs me even when I'm fast asleep. It must be something!

Do their voices really break like that?? It sounds so awful! She seems anxious when she sees me, like she needed reassurance, and she's especially emotional today... with that voice. I have a gut feeling she's unwell.

Can pigeons develop fever or sore throat?

Other than that, she flies around, doesn't look sick, responds to me and eats a lot! I'll post some poopy pics first thing in the morning. Maybe I'll take a video of her sounding like that so you can have a clearer picture of the trumpet sounds...

My heart is unsettled...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, usually when they are experiencing true respiratory distress their breaths per minute goes up in count from normal ranges. Count the rise and fall of her chest as one breath, sometimes it can be quite subtle, so you may have to watch her tail area to count the slight up and down bobbing of the tail when breathing in and out. Don't do this right after flight or any activity, as the count will not be accurate, but when calmly perching or laying down resting, like in your first photo in post #71 you made; http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=513389&postcount=71. A normal range would be in the 30 breaths a minute range, give or take a few breaths. Although, not conclusive in diagnosis, this is useful in gaging if respiratory distress is present.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



Just get her gathered up, gently arrange her Legs to be straight back against her Body and Tail...

Set her that way, onto a small folded Cloth or small folded Towel which is draped over your Thighs as you sit...


Fold the Cloth over her, so her Legs remain straight back against her body, and her Feet slightly extending past the edge of the folded Cloth.


Cloth should be about five inches wide, and maybe 12 inches long.


Once she is folded into the Cloth, you have a Bird 'Burrito'.

Spigot the Burrito-Bird in to the small space just behind your knees as you sit under a good, bright Light, and, hold her that way, so you are holding only the lower half of her Body between your Legs.


You then have both Hands free to open her Beak and to look in and evaluate conditions and appearences in her Throat.


They can have sore Throats or Fevers and be sick without necessarily having elevated Breathing rates, or looking sick.


Images of the poops?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

First of all, sorry for the long reply... my internet got cut and I was living in oblivion for a moment..

A bit of update: 
KK has lost her voice completely. She no longer squeaks at all.. so probably the trumpet thing was a coming-of-age that made her go from noisy squeaker to a quiet adult. She is definitely calmer now, and doesn't go hysterical anymore. Sorry for my panic...

Karyn, I checked the breathing count like you said. Her breathing seems normal like before. About 30 breaths per minute... if I didn't count wrong...

Phil, I've attached her latest poop below. Since her trumpet noise has gone, I don't think I will do the checking of the throat thing. To be honest, it scares me.. I'm really too chicken to handle her. 

Just this morning, while I was cleaning her loft, she accidentally fell from the covered toilet bowl onto the floor. Because it was an awkward fall, her wings got stuck for a few seconds. It was horror for me. She is ok but my heart nearly stopped. Sigh...

Spirit Wings, the scheduled soft release will be on the 18th of Nov - so her age would be about 73 days old... hopefully, that is enough time to strengthen her wings and put her in the brink of health before the wild.

Here are some recent pictures of her. Thanks for all your concern!
Sending some hugs and coos to MR Squeaks & Shi as well as Quazer & Snoopy!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

She is such a beautiful one...


You have done a great job!


Nice lookin' poop, too.


They are still fairly rubbery and they are rugged too at this age, and a little gangley at times, so, some rough-and-tumble stuff is both normal and to be expected.


Short falls, they do not have enough time to get their Wings going!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Wondered where you'd got to LOL
Gorgeous picks of KK, 








This one looks like shes posing lol










Getting ready for the big wild world










And Planning her route LOL










Is it me or does that poop look like an out of focus pic of a fluffy young squeaker LOL


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hehe Quazar... the world is dark without internet! 

The poop pic is indeed out of focus. KK pooped on the glass table, you can see the ceiling light in the reflection.. is she still considered a squeaker since she's got no voice now? She is afterall, only about 65+ days old... give n take...

And I think she's a he! The mirror drive her nuts! She flings herself to the mirror all the time to "go to the other side" and hurts herself in the process. I can't help calling her "her" since I'm so used to thinking she's a she.

Very curious bird! And naughty too. Tsk tsk.

Is it natural for birds to 'pick' their food? KK only wants to eat millets and nothing else. I've given her cooked peas, white wheat, canary mix and yet she chooses only millets. She picks them right out of her bowl. She refuses to eat anything else. When she's out in the world, will she learn to eat what her peers are eating? I really hope so!

For her sake, I will devote my life to sprinkling millets in my neighbourhood 3 times a day! I hope she will thrive in the wild!

Have an awesome day all!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, glad to hear her breathing is normal. With you contemplating a release for her in the near future, I think it's important that you introduced her to other types of food she will encounter in the wild, if you haven't already, such as cooked rice, bread (start with small, easy to swallow pieces and what ever else you may know people locally do feed to the wild pigeons, as you need to ensure she recognizes these things as food and not just seeds. Would it be possible for you to weigh her?... I think it would be good to know what her weight is like. Although hard to tell from the photos, she looks like she may need a little more body mass on her to ensure she has good body reserves, to help help her weather her first days in transition, while she figures things out.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



He is a Fledgling now, done with being a 'Squeaker'...and soon to be assuming grown-up poises and dispositions and aires.


Once out in the wider World, he will learn from the other Pigeons, and, once hungry-enough, he will eat what he sees them eating.


If you know where he is then, you can always go and spread out some Millet Seeds of course!


My situation here, once they are Fledged and flying around and associating with some of the Wild Adults who live in the Ceilings, they soon become quite 'Wild' and assume grown up Aires, and want nothing more to do with me.


This of course makes my job a lot easier, and, they self release out the big Roll-Up Door as they see fit, initially going out and coming back in, going out and staying out longer before coming back in, then, at some point, going out and staying out for keeps, joining the Wild Flock.


Is it possible you could do your release in that way? Allowing him to leave on his own volition, and, to return as he pleases, for the period when this IS what they would do in Nature anyway?


It does let them progress then according to their own confidence and growing experiences...and to in effect build from their Home Base, in establishing their new habitation and explores of the Wider World.



Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Karyn, 
I agree with you, she is really underweight! I don't know how to make her eat more. She will eat enthusiastically, and when she is full, she stops and do something else. She only eats milets and refuses the rest. I've tried giving her bread and cooked rice (the diet of the feral flock here) but she refuses them each time! I do keep trying, but she ignores me and do other stuff. I don't want to resort to "starving" her and only put the bread and rice as food as I am concern about her _losing_ more weight (she is already so skinny). And over here, I am unable to find a good pigeon mix (like Purgrain).
How do I fatten her up?

Hi Phil,
We live in a packed block of flats, and I'm on the 9th storey. There are possibly thousands of people living in the same block, their apartments looking exactly the same as mine. If we leave the windows open and she flies out on her own, chances are.. she will return to the _wrong_ house. And making matters worse, she may not 'meet' the feral flock, who are "hanging out" on the other side of the block. 

It's a jigsaw puzzle in my area, even humans lose their way! For a pigeon, especially with the thousands of windows looking similar, poor Krik-Krik might get smack for flying into the wrong household! How I wish I live in a cool workshop with my own space! Sigh..

So... my plan is to bring her _directly_ to the grazing flock, let her mingle with them and only when I see that she is "accepted" to the flock will I let her go. I do plan to check on the 'site' every 3 hours and for the few weeks or so, keep a lookout for her in the feral flock to make sure she is ok. Also everyday, I will leave a bucketful of millets on the ground for the whole generation of pigeons there to graze!

What are the best seeds to give her for gaining weight? I can try to find individual seeds... though I am having a hard time finding safflower seeds here. It's the difference in language and most of the older shopkeepers do not know English.

If anyone out there who knows a Purgrain dealer in Singapore/Asia, please do let me know... would appreciate it!

Thanks all!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Hi Karyn,
> I agree with you, she is really underweight! I don't know how to make her eat more. She will eat enthusiastically, and when she is full, she stops and do something else. She only eats milets and refuses the rest. I've tried giving her bread and cooked rice (the diet of the feral flock here) but she refuses them each time! I do keep trying, but she ignores me and do other stuff. I don't want to resort to "starving" her and only put the bread and rice as food as I am concern about her _losing_ more weight (she is already so skinny). And over here, I am unable to find a good pigeon mix (like Purgrain).
> How do I fatten her up?


Miss-Sassypants, well not exactly analogous, as my pigeons are pets and don't fly free, I had a young bird who was having a hard time weaning to seeds. What I did was supplement him to get his weight a good ways up. When his weight was up, I went to only supplementing him late night and not at all during the day, he had the advantage of having other birds around to watch and imitate and eventually he got the hang of it. Normally the parents would do all of this, but he was from first time parents who accidental crushed one baby and then stopped feeding him for some reason, so I took over. The way I was feeding him was by tube with Kaytee Exact.

Well, I think it is important that in cases like this we have firm numbers to work with, so you really need to get her weighed. In another thread, there was a caregiver, like yourself, with what I felt was an underweight bird who, again like yours, was soon scheduled for release. I suggested perhaps a local store with a scale could weigh the bird for her, in a box, which they did for her. She actually said that the store let her put the bird on the scale without the box and got the weight. I know where you are may be a little more fussy, so you could wrap her in a towel and the seal the box just before going into the store, get a weight and later return with the box and towel, get a weight again and simple math will tell us your bird's weight.

Perhaps instead of me typing everything over again, have a look at the thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/pigeon-with-very-bad-injury-at-the-beak-44957-3.html

It is quite a long thread and the caregiver had two birds she was helping, one did not make it, but the one with a similar story to yours, did. Please have a good look at post #82 in the thread and follow the links and information. I would like you to make up the calorie dense egg meal I suggested and feed your little guy the way the video in the other link shows, it will put on weight real quick. Just make sure you don't overcook it, keep it moist and cut it up into fairly small pieces. This will make up for you not being able to tube feed to pack some the weight on.

On her own, if you can locate some unsalted, raw, shelled, sunflower hearts and some, again raw, Spanish peanuts, chop the peanuts up into small pieces about the size of split green peas, or a bit smaller if she has trouble with this size, and try both of these. Both are many pigeon's favorite treats and mine go nuts over both when I put a little out as treats once and a while. I would also like you to try hand feeding her, like in the video clip, a little bread and cooked rice each day, she really will need to get to know these as food and feeding her a small amount each day by hand, then leaving more for her to try on her own may help. Later once her weight is up you will stop the millet, sunflower hearts and peanuts during the day and leave only the rice and bread out, then before bed you can put out a two teaspoons of a mix of the millet, sunflower and peanuts and also supplement a number of pieces of the corn meal, then nothing during the day except the rice and bread and see how this goes.

I my opinion releasing her without a really decent body mass and without her freely eating bread and rice may be an iffy situation and with all the work you have done with her, I think we want things a much better than iffy.

Karyn


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you Karyn!
Awesome info! I will certainly try that! I'm off to the supermarket to find those raw peanuts and sunflower seeds. Thanks a million! Will update soon...


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Another question... what kind of oil do I use in the corn bread baking?

Cooking oil? Wheat Germ oil? Olive oil?

It would help to get the right ingredients! Thanks Karyn!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I know here, I raise a lot of youngsters, either from down-Babys, or from slightly older when I get them.


They are all individuals, and, some are really plump and heavy before fledging, then become very slender and in fact weigh a lot less once beginning to fly and explore and so on.

The Heavy fledglings have a hard time flying, crash a lot, have hard landings and or can hurt themselves in these things also, and are delayed in developing adequate Flight Muscles because they weight too much...and the 'light' ones have a greatly easier time of flying and gaining independence and gaining Muscle Mass as they go, where, they then slowly gain weight as they continue to grow up.


Overall, it is normal for them to weigh less after fledging, than they had before that time, so I would not worry.


He has been indoors, things have been liesured, no other Birds to cavort or goof around with in flying, and not burning much Calories, and not really needing to eat much by his sense of things, so, he has been 'picky' and that is normal for that situation.


Once 'Wild' he will change and adapt and conceed to the conditions of his new World...and, have a lot more appetite for all the exercise and energy-burning in general!



I have two 'heavy' fledglings in here now, and they are not the Fliers the 'Light' slender ones are. They crash a lot, have troubles landing nimbly on various things, and labor in their take offs.


I see both are loosing a little weight now, which I am glad to see.


Every one is an individual, so, we have to take that into account, but, overall, a slender, sleek, 'Light' fledgling will do a lot better than a heavy one, when dealing with the conditions of the wider World!


And they grow up just fine, and gain weight and muscle, from there.



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Another question... what kind of oil do I use in the corn bread baking?
> 
> Cooking oil? Wheat Germ oil? Olive oil?
> 
> It would help to get the right ingredients! Thanks Karyn!


I would use corn oil, but some very fresh olive oil will work as well. Phil, as usual, has made some good mentions. My concerns where/are, as mentioned, with a low body weight, her not eating the common food she will find to forage, not having flock support or having been socialized in with other pigeons, no guarantee she will quickly integrate with the local flock and pick up their ways and also no guarantee she will soft release back to you each day, like Piu did in the other thread to have secure shelter and food, I worry.

I don't want to make her fat, by any means, but feel we need to get her body weight up to where if things do not go exactly right for her, she will have decent body reserves to draw on until she figures things out. Plus, she really needs to at least be eating some rice and bread, so we know if she gets hungry enough, she knows its food and will eat it. Getting an accurate weight on her and keeping track of it for the next little while would be very helpful I feel.

Karyn


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the assurance, Phil! 
I agree that like humans, pigeons all have different body mass. The feral here are GORGEOUS! They are bulky with perfect feathers and KK looks scrawny in comparison... However, according to my dad, the species of pigeons at his work site (where he found KK as a baby), the adults pigeons there looked exactly like KK - scrawny with thin feathers. So I guess they are genetically skinny..

I'm going to use Karyn's recipe to help grow some meat on him a little... not to make him fat or anything. Just less bony. Maybe enough to sustain some body heat during the torrential rainy season... but thanks for the assurance! I feel so much relieved hearing your experience on this!

Karyn, what about a bottle of olive oil that has been opened for about 3+ weeks? I bought it to coat KK's seeds but he hated the oil, only prefered wheat germ oil. Is that fresh enough or do I need to buy another bottle (it cost $7+. A bit pricey for an unemployed girl like me!)

To substitute cornmeal.. is cornflour ok? I thinks it's the Asian version of cornmeal? I think they could be the same thing but wanted to make sure before I buy it...

Thanks Karyn! I'm excited to bake for KK!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, the olive oil you have should be still quite fresh, so I would use it. Please try a little harder to find corn meal. If you have some food stores there that specialize in foods from Italy/Mediterranean area, see if they have Polenta or stores for people from the USA, see if the have grits. I have not used corn flour, my feeling is without a leavening agent, such as baking powder, corn flour would be just too dense. There are a number of names for corn meal around the world, what you buy should be grainy, like sand, not powdery, like flour.

Karyn


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Karyn,
I couldn't find cornmeal but found "finely-grained crushed yellow corn" (which has gritty/sand-like material) so I used that instead.

I added that corn grit stuff, cornflour, eggs, olive oil and water into the mix and baked it. It was still soft but when I broke it up, it was a little powdery so I sifted all the powder out and left millet-sized crumbs.

KK took a while to eat it. I sat with her for 95mins using my fingers to peck at the dish until she finished eating everything! No distraction, just plain pecking. It finally worked!

She has had 3 x half-dish-full since and now trots around looking sleepy and full! She can still fly but seems a little lazy and prefers to sit on the floor instead (where her toy is).

My mom is in the house for the weekend and poor KK isn't allowed to fly out for 3 days. So I hang out in her loft to keep her company. 

Anyway, with the corn-egg feed, I hope she can put on more weight! It is easily digestible right? I hope the stuff won't clog her crop or anything. She does look stuffed!

One more thing.. since the weather at night has been really humid, I have woken KK up for 2 nights in a row. She was sleeping near the ceiling, I had to climb up and stand on the toilet bowl to offer her a bowl of fresh water. She gulped so much (3 times actually) indicating that she was really thirsty! I figured if she was sleeping and too lazy to fly down to the floor where her water dish is, I'd wake her up and offer her the drink as the weather was scorching (and this is at night!!). Is that ok? I just didn't want her to get dehydrated in the middle of the night... but I'm not sure if it's healthy for pigeons to get interrupted in their sleep just for water...

Again, thanks for everyone's advice! Hope you have a great weekend!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, the instructions in the link I gave you call for give 15-20 1/4" (about the size of a green pea) pieces of the bread. Perhaps your eggs are smaller there, as the eggs should hold everything to gether try 3 eggs instead of two. She should be fine as long as she has access to water to move things through. In the future please don't let her completely stuff herself, either 15-20 pieces "popped" or until her crop is half full. She drank so much water because she knew she needed a lot to move the food along.

Karyn


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Karyn. 

Since I've made quite a lot of the corn-bread thingy, I'll wait till this supply runs out before making another one with the 3 eggs. Maybe I overcooked it? It crumble into pieces as soon as I cut it. Inside it is soft, but outside it cracks and becomes powdery...

Shows I'm not much of a chef! Lol!

Krik-Krik didnt stuff herself today. I only put enough food in her dish to keep her half-full. And lots of ACV water. Also, for lunch today, she took a break from the corn-bread. Instead I gave her her usual millets, coated with wheat germ oil and probiotics (to help aid with her digestion faster?)

For dinner, it's back to the corn bread feed. She ate them without fuss.

Is it my imagination or did KK really had put on weight in just ONE day? She does seem a lot heavier on my hand and she looks plump too. 

For now I am unable to weigh her... taking her to public (much less a store!) is a no-no. It isn't wise to be seen having a pigeon for the safety of other pigeons in my area. It's a different world we live in! Sad but I won't risk it for her weight. Either I have to buy the weighing scale or get if from someone. I'll find alternatives to weigh her... Will update you soon...

In the meantime, she does look plump and her plummage is certainly improving. Thicker feathers and she just looks so well and alert.

Thank you sooo very much for all your help and expertise! It is countdown for her release... and my family is already thinking of ways to "beat the system" to ensure KK's survival in the wild...

We're planning to dig a hole in the ground and place a plastic container for KK's ACV water (so it can't be seen by the public and soil won't erode into the water)... and every morning at 5am or so, I plan to make a trip to the foraging area of the pigeons and sprinkle corn-bread and millets before the sunrise so no one can see me.

That way, the pigeons can be healthy and won't starve and the public can't complain cos they wouldn't know we're secretly feeding them! 

Things we do for the love of Krik-Krik! Wish us luck!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, when they start to get a decent amount of high calorie food into them, can put on weight and start to fill out pretty quickly, sometimes as you say, seemingly overnight, I do think an extra egg will help. See what you can do about asking friends and family and inquire if they have a kitchen scale you can borrow, I really do think it's important to know her weight, if at all possible.

Sounds like you are doing a good job of putting a plan together to help her out and support her in the wild, this is important as well, as it will take her a little while to adjust and every little bit that can be done to ensure she has some food and water each day will help her tremendously. Don't rush her release because you have a certain date in mind, if you/she needs a few extra days with you, just move the day down a bit.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


Perfectly fine to offer Water in-a-cup while you are still the 'parent' looking after your youngster...even if as the parent you have mostly backed off on interacting or other gestures.



Ones I raise here, what is most important, is their strength and reflexes and ability to take off and fly straight up to a Roof or other.


Many excell at this even if appearing to be of thin build, others excell who are chunky, different builds from different gentic heritages...


Weight suggests Muscle Mass of Breast/Back/Flying Muscles.


Ultimately, it is their Muscle development and reflexes which are the real issue with being ready for release...and that we se they cvan fly straight up without it sunding or seeming labored.


In Nature of course all this proceeds rather differently, and, the youngsters Fledge and progress toward independence and physical fittness in graduated and progressive increments through out which they gain and develop their flight muscles and make their overall progress over however many weeks.


We can not do these things as their Pigeon Parents do, so..we have to stall at this phase, give them time to develop far enough, and assure ourselves they are strong enough for fast, vertical take offs and flying up to Roof edges and so on, so they will have that skill and option when needed.


I love Corn Bread!


Lol...


Now I want to bake some too!


Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Karyn, I shall try asking around for the weighing scale...

Lol Phil, you can share the cornbread with Krik-Krik if you like...

Okay... about the interaction bit...

I am afraid that KK might be too imprinted on humans. She flies to my head and shoulders and despite _weeks_ of me taking her off and saying no, she still does it. And she also does it to my dad and brother (she is terrified of my mom - who wouldn't be?! lol). 

What if she carries this behaviour in the wild? That will be dangerous. How on earth do I teach her NOT to do this because everytime I scold her, she ignores me and does it again when I'm not watching.. voila, she perches on my head.

She likes to snuggle a lot too. I don't think she (HE rather!) wants to mate with me, she just likes her back massages and such a snuggle bunny. 

*Will all these subside when she mixes with the gangsta pigeons? Will they teach her how to be a pigeon and she loses these affections for humans?*

It is hard to withdraw my interactions with her because..
1. When she is free-flying in the living room and I am on my laptop, she flies to me and wants to cuddle. I tried shooing her away to practice flying but all she wants is to sit on my lap and eat my keyboard.

2. She look so pitiful when we ignore her. It seems like she needs interaction (especially from me) to keep her emotionally happy. I can't bear to ignore her for long hours!

3. My dad constantly talks to her and plays with her. I can't do anything about it. I don't think there is anything wrong with it... but from an expert point of view, should I be concerned and limit her interactions with only one human (me)?

I'm so worried about her impending release, I can't sleep at night. I don't want my affections for her to jeopardize her chances for survival in the wild but I don't want her to be depressed or go insane from the lack of affection..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,


My present 'Wild Bunch' - Seven post fleglings I raised from Babys who are into their independence stage of growing up...five of them have gotten so 'Wild' now I can not get near them...while two of them insist to fly over and land on my Head or Shoulders, and we never did that before, but they just started it now.


I just peel them off and set them aside, and then I weither walk away, or, I call them to come over to the Seeds or Water, which is usually what they wanted anyway, or they felt bored or confused about something or who knows.



Yours of course, there are no other Birds for them presently to interact with, pal around with or emulate, and no open-ended larger Spatial offerins to tempt or invite for exploring, so you tend to be their focus.


I have had my Big Door open as much as possible lately, for these seven to fly out and goof around with the Wild Birds as they like, and they have not done much of that yet even though the Weather has been lovely.


Anyway, once other social and spatial options are there for your Pigeon, I am confident he will shift into the modes and manners of the 'Gangsta' Pigeons very quickly and gracefully, and he will absorb from them their awares and shys and everything else, as well as that his own inate awares and so on will take the forefront in responce to the new conditions.


Can you 'release' your Mom and Dad somewhere?


( Lol...)


Parents are often quite difficult to re-train, I know..!



Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you Phil! 

I am 'releasing' my parents to a holiday! Hah! They are going on a week-long vacation, just the two of them, so there will be a pigeon party while they are away.. hehehe.. 

I'll be inviting all the gangsta pigeons to poop in the living room, watch tv, eat peanuts, get drunk, all that jazz... lol.. Just kidding.. _(I'll have to play janitor if that happens!)_

On a serious note, when my dad and I went to the birdshop to get more millets, I noticed an adult pigeon IN A CAGE ALL BY HERSELF! Strange that I never noticed her before. She looked so miserable in that very small cage.

Her feathers looked greasy, as if she has never taken a bath or basked in the sun in her whole life. She looked so forlorn and quiet. When I knelt to talk to her, she turned away but because the cage was too small, as she did that, she turned to the wall. Looking at her was sheer misery.

Phil, reading back what you said, aren't pigeons sociable creatures? I dread to think of the emotional torment of that lonely pigeon. I tried to ask the shopkeeper the history of the bird (did someone find a baby and gave him to raise? how old is the bird? how did he get her?), but he couldn't speak proper English so it was mutter-mutter something along the line of yes-yes-yes.. without really answering my questions...

I am now thrown into my own emotional turmoil.

Do I "rescue" the poor pigeon, give it a good bath, all the nutrition, integrate her with the other pigeons, get her to befriend KK... and release them both together to the same integrated gangsta flock.... 

OR

Turn a blind eye and leave her as it is?

My dad was so saddened by the sight, he asked how much she cost. $6. For the price of a dear life... only $6...

I can't bear to imagine her waiting to be bought for a religious sacrifice or whatever cruel reasons... but if I do take her in, in your expertise, will it be dangerous for KK (in terms of health, social, emotion aspects)...

Should I finish my project on KK and once KK is safely released and adaptable, then proceed to rescue this one? Or do it at the same time? Or do nothing at all?

I need some expert guidance in this... any advice is appreciated! 
I will attach her images soon for your assessment on her health.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, well, I may not be the best person to advise you on what you should do, as I would probably rescue the bird and just keep it in my coop and call it a day. On the other hand, keeping it permanently is not a possibility for you, so I guess to start you would need to know just what breed of pigeon is it. Quite frankly, there are large pigeons, such as King pigeons, that are breed as a food animal ("squab" on some fancy menus). These birds because of their large mass do not fly well, hence do not do well in the wild and if you read through the forum, especially on the west coast, there are many stories of people doing what you have in mind, rescuing a pigeon(s) from the dinner plate and then letting them go in the wild, where they are ill equipped to survive on their own.

So to buy some time to think this thing through, if you could take a photo or find out what kind of pigeon this is, you may get a few more replies and some better guidance, as people, like myself, are a little torn as what to tell you to do.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Miss-S,



As Karyn mentions, or to elaborate along parts of the same lines...if this is a 'regular' Pigeon, size, shape, and so on, then probably it could be eventually released and manage fine.


If it is an 'exotic' or a Parlor Tumbler or an over-large Breed or something, then it would not be release-able no matter how happy, interactive, sociable or savvy he or she may eventually be.



If stuck in a small cage, and no social interaction, no friends, no exercise, no privacy, they will sort of go into a dis-affection mode and be pretty well shut off emotionally, while still being of course entirely miserable, but, they can spring back just fine once having wholesome and meaningly interactive and freedom-related conditions again.


If you can handle it, and have your Dad on your side, then, hey, go for the gusto!


Have him in a better Cage for a short time in your care for "observation", allowing him short play periods or the like out of the Cage, and sort of taper that down then untill there is no Cage time at all.

You will need to be able to have him under observation for a few days anyway, to see how things seem with his poops, eating, and anything else.


Find an interpeter if possible to help you question the present 'owner' about the Bird's History, and how come he is being kept like that...which is and has been, of course, cruel to do to a Bird.



If this is a Pigeon who has spent his whole Life so far in this condition, and never had anything else, he would need some graduated succession of learning and catching up to do, ( might be a year or two even ) which eventually should include being able to spend time among other Adult Pigeons in an Aviary or Loft or the likes, where, if he does well after a while, has a Mate, fights, on and on, would suggest he could manage alright once released.


I have had a few like that, and, took a while, but, they came around, got caught up to themselves, and for all their initial lack of everything, withdrawn-ness and turning away and so on, once caught up, you would never know they had not been been born and raised 'Wild' - they werre vivid, alert, savv, tough, smart, able, Pigeon-Society Wise, and happy.


Phil
L v


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Karyn & Phil,
Thanks for your advice. I'm unable to upload the images yet, as I need the other comp to do so (long story! this one I'm using is a little lousy)...

If the rehabilitation of the captured pigeon takes a year, I'm afraid I'm not capable of doing so. I don't have a friendly flock where the pigeon could socialize with, and I certainly won't be able to take care of it for a year, with the constraints I'm living with. 

I wish I could help, if I buy the pigeon and take it to ACRES for rehabilitation, I wonder if they could accept her? I just don't want the poor pigeon to be a meal on a menu... her pigeon life would have been wasted, born and bred in a cage, and end up as someone's dinner.

Sorry I'm typing this with melancholy..

I checked on KK's loft tonight, and didn't switch on the lights, just opened the door to let fresh air in... he woke up and I offered some water. To my horror, he "attacked" the dish so I retrieved it. Then I tried to console him, and voila he bit my fingers so hard it was really painful! He was sooo aggressive! He bit and flew to attack me again! 

He has never been like that at all. I am shocked. In all admission, it was my fault for disturbing his sleep, but in the previous nights, he always wanted to cuddle after being offered water. 

Tonight, he coo-ed (for the first time too!) very aggressively and attacked my hand even while he was perching on it. He flew around and ultimately fell down as his landing was terrible. Something seemed off about him tonight. I don't know whether to be worried or upset.. but I am surely guilty.

My hand is still reeling from the pain. I'm surprised it didn't bleed. Just today, he was all cuddles and snuggly. I'm in shock!

Is it possible he had a nightmare? Or is this a beginning of a I-hate-you-now phase?? So scary....


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

The behavior you describe if fairly typical of young birds around KK's age and although hard to feel and take the bites, and the ensuing feelings of rejection, it is something that you should welcome as signs of maturation. His landing could just be he still learning and not gaging things quite right, but do keep an eye on him.

With the other bird, photos will help and ACRES may be worth while having a look into, I certainly do understand the feeling of typing with melancholy at times.

Karyn


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thank you Karyn.

As soon as the other computer is able to start again, I'll put the pics up.

Oh I feel so rejected by KK... His angry coos scares me! I hope he will turn into the sweetie that he is in the morning...


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Oh I feel so rejected by KK... His angry coos scares me! I hope he will turn into the sweetie that he is in the morning...


hes probably just having a mood strop lol
If you woke him up, maybe he didnt want water & hes just letting you know.
Snoopy used to do that at times, He'd sit on monitor watching, I'd offer him a peanut & he'd stand up, wingslap, move along a bit, grunt a little & sit down again, much as to say "get lost I'm content". Then 2 mins later hed fly down to box & start pecking at the peanuts, back to the monitor, sit down & I'd swear he was grinning and saying "I'll have them WHEN I WANT them" lol


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

The other comp still doesn't work.. the images may take a few more days... sorry 

Quazer, you're right! KK is back to being a sweetie today.

At first it was awkward. I didn't know if I can pet him or not, fearing he might strike again, and I think he sensed my awkwardness and he too, became quite awkward. He tried to fly to me as usual and then stopped in his tracks.

Slowly, he trotted closer and became all cuddly again.
Phew!!

What a strange episode. I'm prepared for the teenage rebel streak now!

Thanks for your assurance!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Once growing up, they have and develop their sense of 'boundaries' and Territories and proprietary things...they may scold or rebuke, if these are not respected in their terms.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I have bad news 

My dad returned to the birdshop to check on the bird we wanted to buy... and sadly, she's dead. The shopkeeper said she died soon after (possibly a day or so after we left).

I have been feeling really awful for the past few days... it was as if the moment to save her was "Now or Never".. since I didn't buy her immediately, it turned out to be never... 
I haven't even put her pics up yet, the comp is still down.. and she's in pigeon heaven :'(

As for KK, he's back to the usual cuddly self. But his poops are now dodgy. I have taken some pics but again, the hopeless computer where I can upload things is still down. Once it's working again, I'll post all the pics up.

Here's the description. It's very green (dark green), not in one poop, broken up, very watery and the urates isn't clear, it's a little milky.

Since KK's freedom is soon, I want to make sure he's in the brink of health before his release... so dodgy poops are a huge concern! Having said that, he has been decimating my mother's money plant that's in his loft. He's been cutting the leaves and pooping on the plant, creating havoc... poor plant. _What did the plant ever do to you, Krik-Krik? _Shessh... 

I don't think he eats the leaves though, just cuts them and throws them on the floor of his loft. He has been doing this since forever but his poops are strange only recently.

The weather here is so unpredictable. I'm waiting for a good time to release him... 
Ah the heart is heavy!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

I am still in shock. 
My condolences to Shi's family & pets.

I will miss you soooo very much, dear friend :'(


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Miss-Sassypants, it may be purely coincidental, the tearing up of your mother's Money Plant and the loose dropping, but I wouldn't allow KK to do this any longer. Although you say he does not eat any of the leaves, in the tearing I am sure very small amounts of leaf sap are ingested, with toxins sometimes the amount required to bring on a toxic reaction are extremely minute, especially in a creature this small, so best be safe. Like I mentioned before, I know you have a date in mind, but if KK is not 100% when that date arrives, please push it down a bit until you are confident he is 100%.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I agree - one has to make sure they are not messing with any Plants or Potted Plant Soils...unless, Plant-Wise, it is an edible Plant safe for them to eat.


He might be bored, and or seeking nutrients which he intuits to be present in tender Leafy Greens, which is natural for him of course.

In Nature they will brouse various edible Plants and Weeds and eat the tender Buds, small Leaves or small fruiting Bodies.


Years ago, our indoor Pigeons used to decimate the Potted House Plants, stipping them down to mere naked Stems, as well as go after spent Match Heads in the Ash Trays.


Well, we started setting out Kales and endives and Chards and so on, or other leavy edible Greens, edible dried Sea Weeds also, and they went after those instead, and were satisfied then.


Best to provide edible and safe sources of things they crave, so they do not go after compromised things which cuold make them sick.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Oh no! 
Ok, I will take the plant outside.. for both their sakes!

To keep KK from boredom, he is now playing with his diapers (it's not on him, it's on the floor). He is trying to decimate that instead.

I will push the date forward till I'm sure he is ready and the weather is good.
I feel sad just thinking about his release.

The baked corn bread has gone sour. I'm going to bake another one, with 3 eggs this time! Wish me luck!

Thanks Phil & Karyn.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...

Best wishes!


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks Phil.

The more I think about it, the more I _really really_ want to keep him...
I remember the first time we took him out to "socialize" with the ferals (the crow incident) and how he trotted cutel_y_ to me as I was crouching 5 metres away, and then snuggled at my feet. I could feel he feels safe and secure with me, and even today, he does the same thing.

We watched tv today (parents on vacation, house open to KK). We played with his diapers on the floor. I was half watching tv, and half supervising him, he trotted over and stood on my feet. As long as his feet are touching any part of my body, I can tell he feels safe.

Times like these makes it harder to let him go. He never flies to the window. Never showed any yearning for the outdoors. Sometimes, he looks out and I let him be, and he always flies back to me if I move 3 metres away.

_Aaaaahh!_ I love him more than anything, but I really want the best for him. He is healthy and fit. He deserves to live a fulfilling pigeon life and have a proper pigeon family...

Does he want to be with me and be mateless for life... or does he want freedom? I wish I knew....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I would not want to let any of my pigeons loose to be wild either.. esp one that I hand raised,not sure why yours would be any different.. but I have a place to fulfill all their needs... that is probably what you can base the decision on..


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What I observe in the ones I raise and whm I let self-release - 


The 'release' itself usually spans weeks, even as their period of seperation from their Dad once flying well tends to be in Nature, if, maybe, tending to be a little longer in my case.


They fly out, goof around, spend the night on the roof and so on, come back in, fly over 'Squeaking' to me for Water or something, or as may be, but, there is not any single radical transition - things progress as per the individual, and, in staggered ways, to the point where they have it together and and are competent and able and finding forrage and Water out doors, and part of the Wild Cosiety/Flock membership.


Of the five or six who I just recently raised and who are self-releaseing, one still seems to forget how to find Water outside, or happens to yearn for at least a little Daddy time, while, the others avoid me entirely and fly in and out and are staying out longer or some are staying out for good now.


Phil
Lv


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi Phil & Spirit Wings,
I wish I could keep little Krik-Krik forever! Sigh..

Phil's workshop seems like an ideal place for pigeons. Like a pigeon haven where the ferals are tended to, and the hand-raised babies get the best of both worlds!

Of course Spirit's loft is another pigeon haven. If transporting KK to USA is less complicated, I would consider it!

Yesterday, at my aunt's place, my young niece took my Iphone to play with and she saw pictures of KK. She was sitting on my mom's lap and my mom saw them too. The evidence of KK loitering around in HER living room! KK on her fave cushion, KK on the sofa looking smug, KK freely walking and flying in HER house. Oops... 

I was trembling with fear... but to my utter surprise, my mom told my niece, "Isn't the bird cute? He's very tame," and proceeded to BRAG to my aunts how adorable KK is and how he is having unrestricted access in the house.

You should have seen my face. I was absolutely gobsmacked. 
After she has given me hell for KK's poops... now.. _My mom... secretly... loves Krik-Krik??_

Wow! How the little bugger has bulldozed his way into my family's hearts! Including the iron-maiden mommy! Such is a pigeon!


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