# subcutaneous fluids



## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

For future reference, where do you place the needle for subq fluids and how much do you give and how often? I assume this is for severely dehydrated birds unable to drink on their own. Thanks!


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Whenever we give sub-Q shots, we give them in the back of the base of the neck. When we put the needle in, we make sure the tip is pointed towards the back to prevent it from going too far in the neck and poking something important.
Vaccines are often given in the skin between the leg and the body.

Now I'm not sure if either of those are the best places just for fluids, or if they apply for any kind of sub-Q injection (vaccine or not). Best leave that up to some of our more experienced members


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Whenever we give sub-Q shots, we give them in the back of the base of the neck. When we put the needle in, we make sure the tip is pointed towards the back to prevent it from going too far in the neck and poking something important.
> *Vaccines are often given in the skin between the leg and the body.*
> Now I'm not sure if either of those are the best places just for fluids, or if they apply for any kind of sub-Q injection (vaccine or not). Best leave that up to some of our more experienced members



Good place to give fluids to a bird.


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## amoonswirl (Nov 14, 2006)

I haven't given sub-q fluids to a bird...
But our cat gets them every 2 days. We put the needle in her as MaryOfExeter describes. More or less parallel to the spine, on the back of the neck. Not too deep. Careful not to poke the spine or muscles - just underneath the skin.

Hope that helps!


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

doveone52 said:


> *For future reference, where do you place the needle for subq fluids* and how much do you give and how often? I assume this is for severely dehydrated birds unable to drink on their own. Thanks!


The following is an excerpt taken from a guide that a local rehabber wrote for _rehabbers in training_. 
This rehabber is state and federally licensed and has probably at least 25+ years of experience.

This is pertaining to hydration:
If the bird is not swallowing on his own or fully alert then he must be given fluids under the skin (sub-q method). 
Be certain you learn how to do this before you try for the first time as all birds have extensive air sacs throughout their body that should not be punctured. Also, a needle in the wrong place may paralyze the legs.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

AZWhitefeather said:


> The following is an excerpt taken from a guide that a local rehabber wrote for _rehabbers in training_.
> This rehabber is state and federally licensed and has probably at least 25+ years of experience.
> 
> This is pertaining to hydration:
> ...


Good grief! Things aren't as easy as some like to make it sound. So many things could go wrong that people are not aware of.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2010)

if you do it behind the neck and just under the skin there shouldnt be anyway you are hitting any part of the spine ,so make sure you do it to the left or right of the spinal colum just under the skin and you should be ok


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Good grief! Things aren't as easy as some like to make it sound.
> *So many things could go wrong that people are not aware of*.


You're exactly right. 
One really does need to be so careful and know what they are doing when rehydrating using the sub-q method.

Another thing that was discussed is over-hydrating. 
This is what was said in the guide:
Don't over-hydrate. You can 'drown' the bird if you get carried away but this usually happens when using the sub-q method (injecting the fluid under the skin) or tube feeding fluids.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Good that you posted that information. Many may not know, or even think about that. Thanks.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Jay3 said:


> Good that you posted that information. Many may not know, or even think about that. *Thanks*.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2010)

AZWhitefeather said:


>


so what is the max and minimum of a sub-Q rate for pigeons daily ?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Some good information here: http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformatio...yTechniques/WfowlIndTech/BirdSubcutaneous.htm The amount of fluids is somewhat addressed in this link. If I have time and remember, I will find my wildlife rehab books and look it up.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> *so what is the max and minimum of a sub-Q rate for pigeons daily ?*


This is what the rehabber has listed.

Recommended maintenance (minimal) dosage is:
50ml /kg Bw / Day or .05ml / g BW / Day
One day meaning 24 hours.

Fluid replacement therapy with Lactated Ringer's in a bird with 10% dehydration would double the above 
formula over the course of a 24 hour period. 10% is considered to be severe dehydration. 
The formula for fluid replacement is:
Body Weight (BW) in grams x % of dehydration = Qty of fluids in mls.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Some good information here: http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformatio...yTechniques/WfowlIndTech/BirdSubcutaneous.htm The amount of fluids is somewhat addressed in this link. If I have time and remember, I will find my wildlife rehab books and look it up.
> 
> Terry


Thanks for the link, Terry.
That's very interesting information.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Just to be a sticky wicket here .. are we ALL saying it's OK for a layperson to give sub-q fluids? If so, then where's the line between what a layperson and a vet should do? Me, personally, I have no problem with laypeople doing what needs to be done to save a life, but I suspect many here do.

Yep .. I'm starting the hornet's nest here, but I want this to get over with once and for all. So let's have the discussions and be done with it.

Terry


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

TAWhatley said:


> Just to be a sticky wicket here ..
> 
> ** are we ALL saying it's OK for a layperson to give sub-q fluids? *
> 
> ...


* I can't speak for anyone else, but IMO if someone has no experience in sub-q injections then they shouldn't be performing them. 

** Yep! You sure are.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Me, personally, I have no problem with laypeople *doing what needs to be done to save a life*, but I suspect many here do.


I am with you on this one, Terry. I saved many lives by following telephone instructions given by Nooti but never lost or harmed a pigeon as a result of those instructions, even though I was new to rescue at the time.

It may be different in the US, but here in the UK it is not possible to get immediate veterinary help for any animal, even for a pet, even in an emergency...but specially not for a feral a pigeon. Sometimes we have to do something or watch the pigeon die.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, this is good information. I'm a registered nurse and we don't rehydrate people with subq fluids any longer but I've been called upon to give subq fluids to puppies before. Had seen it mentioned here but clueless where it would be given. I hope I never need to use this information but best to know I think. Thanks for all the good info!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

AZWhitefeather said:


> You're exactly right.
> One really does need to be so careful and know what they are doing when rehydrating using the sub-q method.
> 
> Another thing that was discussed is over-hydrating.
> ...


Not everyone has the same competence level for understanding or following instruction. In May, a veterinarain, that has no experience with birds, but was doing her best, killed a pigeon by giving sub-Q fluids. Giving sub-Q to a dog, cat, possum or squirrel, for example, is much easier, IMO.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I remember a situation here a while back where ill advice was given regarding feeding and watering a baby pigeon, the caregiver was none the wiser and the outcome was tragic, for both the bird and the caregiver. 

First and foremost, the _advisor_ needs to know what _they_ are doing.
Giving instructions on administering sub-q fluids via the Internet, pm, email, phone, etc., can be extremely difficult, in that the advisor should know (if they are going to do this right) the weight and degree of dehydration of the bird before any instructions are given. 

I think he weighs x amount of grams. I think he is a little dehydrated. Wait!! Maybe he's pretty dehydrated, I'm really not sure. I think I know where you are talking about inserting the needle. I don't think I have drawn up too much fluid to give him. 
It's the uncertainty that causes tragedies.

Here is a case in point example of exactly what I'm talking about: 


LokotaLoft said:


> *if you do it behind the neck and just under the skin there shouldnt be anyway you are hitting any part of the spine* ,so *make sure you do it to the left or right of the spinal colum* just under the skin and you should be ok


Under Complications/Limitations/Risks in the link Terry provided, the first entry, in *bold*, is:
*Avoid dorsal neck region due to presence of cervical air sacs in some species.* 

Pigeons have two cervical air sacs, One on the left and and one on the right.









Cindy


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2010)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I remember a situation here a while back where ill advice was given regarding feeding and watering a baby pigeon, the caregiver was none the wiser and the outcome was tragic, for both the bird and the caregiver.
> 
> First and foremost, the _advisor_ needs to know what _they_ are doing.
> Giving instructions on administering sub-q fluids via the Internet, pm, email, phone, etc., can be extremely difficult, in that the advisor should know (if they are going to do this right) the weight and degree of dehydration of the bird before any instructions are given.
> ...


so nothing on the how much is to much then ?


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

Charis said:


> Giving sub-Q to a dog, cat, possum or squirrel, for example, is much easier, IMO.


I've always found mammals to be more difficult. Songbirds are very difficult (easier PO) and Raptors very simple with the right equipment (not everyone has a butterfly needle and Ringers in a home situation).

I'm a trained rehabber - but would find it difficult to explain to someone over the internet - and would be concerned regarding the outcome.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> so what is the max and minimum of a sub-Q rate for pigeons daily ?


That depends on the weight of the pigeon. I have a chart which I can scan and e-mail to you if you like.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> *so nothing on the how much is to much then ?*


This _should_ answer your question.



AZWhitefeather said:


> *The formula for fluid replacement is:
> Body Weight (BW) in grams x % of dehydration = Qty of fluids in mls*.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

garacari said:


> I've always found mammals to be more difficult. Songbirds are very difficult (easier PO) and Raptors very simple with the right equipment (*not everyone has a butterfly needle and Ringers in a home situation).*
> I'm a trained rehabber -* but would find it difficult to explain to someone over the internet - and would be concerned regarding the outcome*.



You're right...not everyone does.


Me too.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

garacari said:


> I've always found mammals to be more difficult. Songbirds are very difficult (easier PO) and Raptors very simple with the right equipment (*not everyone has a butterfly needle and Ringers in a home situation*).
> 
> *I'm a trained rehabber - but would find it difficult to explain to someone over the internet - and would be concerned regarding the outcome.*


I don't know about other places, but here Ringers is not readily available to just anyone, or at least it didn't used to be.

And that _is_ a great concern.

Appreciate your input.


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## garacari (Apr 26, 2010)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I don't know about other places, but here Ringers is not readily available to just anyone, or at least it didn't used to be.


Ringers and Normosol are only available with a prescription in the US. There are a few Internet Canadian pharmacy companies that will sell it without a prescription and ship to the US - but it's very expensive and I would worry about the quality. Still, I'd love to have some in case of emergency.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Terry's proviso was: _what needs to be done *to save a life*_. I certainly wouldn't stand aside and let a pigeon die when there was a chance to save it and I believe that most of our members have the same instinct to preserve life...to *dare* to save a life.

*OF COURSE* no one would advise someone who had *no sterile fluids and no sterile needles* and * no access * to them to administer fluids subQ ! So so lets get back to reality:

I can only speak for what we do in the UK. Here the PT members work as a team. We also build up good relationships with the pigeon friendly vets that we come across. We help and support each other, not only with advice and transport but with resources such as syringes, needles, Hartmanns, bandages etc etc.

When I was a relatively new rescuer and joined the forum I was given a baggie of Hartmanns by an experienced rescuer on PT, who also gave me sterile needles and showed me what to do. That allowed me *to save the lives of pigeons and doves that would have died*. Therefore I try to do the same for other members. 

To give an example of how we work in the UK: one night, Les - one of my PT friends - was given a pigeon that had had its crop and its body slashed several times with a knife. The pigeon was already severely dehydrated and had suffered from blood loss. There was no vet available until the next day. But he had his supply of Hartmann's and sterile needles. On my advice he telephoned a wild life sanctuary first but because he couldn't get there and they couldn't collect the pigeon they gave him instructions on the telephone on how to administer fluids sub Q. By his actions he saved that baby's life.

Did the sanctuary do wrong by giving him advice over the telephone even if there was that possibility that he would be unable to follow their instructions? I don't think so. And I think that if the pigeon could express her approval, she would.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2010)

Feefo said:


> Terry's proviso was: _what needs to be done *to save a life*_. I certainly wouldn't stand aside and let a pigeon die when there was a chance to save it and I believe that most of our members have the same instinct to preserve life...to *dare* to save a life.
> 
> *OF COURSE* no one would advise someone who had *no sterile fluids and no sterile needles* and * no access * to them to administer fluids subQ ! So so lets get back to reality:
> 
> ...


this is so true as a last resort , otherwise the out come would have been the end of that life so good on you for giving this bird its life back


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2010)

AZWhitefeather said:


> This _should_ answer your question.


and how does one figure out the pigeons dehydration % ?


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

LokotaLoft said:


> *and how does one figure out the pigeons dehydration % ?*


I hope this helps.

*HYDRATION:*
Fluids should be given after, and *ONLY AFTER*, the bird has been warmed, examined for any injuries & a determination is made as to the severity of his dehydration.
All fluids should be warmed or at room temperature!

*Description and degrees, of hydrated and dehydrated birds*

*A well hydrated bird* will be very alert, have elastic skin, bright eyes, moist, plump membrane inside the mouth and well formed moist droppings.

*A moderately dehydrated bird* will be less than fully alert, have dry, flaky skin, dull eyes, non-formed droppings and have a sticky membrane in the mouth.

*A severely dehydrated bird* will be lethargic or unconscious, the skin will 'tent' when slightly pinched, have sunken eyes, dry or absent droppings and have dry membrane in the mouth. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f25/basic-steps-to-saving-the-life-of-a-pigeon-or-dove-8822.html


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