# Egg Paralysis Treatment Question



## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

A day or so after laying an egg my 1+ year old girl, Jada, left her nest and sat near me in a hunched position. I suspected she was egg bound and gave her warm baths and applied mineral oil and she did pass the egg but was no better. I then read up on post egg paralysis and got a calcium supplement with vitamin D3. I followed the dosing advice I found on this site, except the pills I got were 600 mg instead of 250 mg so I cut them in 1/8ths. I gave her two a day for 3 days and then one yesterday and today.
She recovered and by the third day was eating on her own and walking normally, just not flying. Problem is today was her last day of the supplement and she's acting depressed, not eating much and at times sitting in the hunched position. 
She's already been getting a little more calcium than advised just because of the size of the pills. Should I go back to two a day? For how long? Is it possible to give too much, and what would be the symptoms?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

yes you can give too much..and sometimes it is not just because of calcium defecient.. it could be just a nerve it has irritated and it takes time for her to regain her weakness... does she sit her eggs when she lays them..does she have a mate?


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

She does have a mate, Rocky. They're both indoor pigeons and between the late winter here and the nests they haven't been outside much to get sun.
She is normally great at sitting on the nest.
I did read about the pinched nerve (sciatic?) and maybe that's why she hasn't been flying. But the supplements really seemed to be helping. She went from not walking, to crawling, to walking wobbly, to walking normally during treatment. Today she seems to be regressing.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi atti,


Can you post some good, clear, well lit, close ups of her fresh poops?



Do her and her mate get direct, outdoor Sunshine now and then?

If not, they should...


Phil
Lv


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm afraid I can't get pics at this time. But they go back and forth from normal, to loose, to a puddle with thin, green links. I know they carry some disease because every time I let them hatch any eggs the chicks die within 1 to 3 days.
I brought them (and a third pigeon I had) to an avian vet that raises pigeons last September because Rocky had respiratory symptoms and I asked about the chick problem. Basically he couldn't diagnose any disease without $700 worth of lab work so I went home with 4 different medicines (2 or 3 antibiotics and a canker med., though they didn't have that).
None of them changed anything but Rocky eventually got over his respiratory problem on his own.

They are both allowed outdoors during the day but the weather has been weird (snowed in May) and though it's warm now, neither one has been interested in going out. Since I lost one to a dog last fall I don't want to push it. I just leave the back door open so they have the opportunity.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

What Antibiotics were they on?

What dosages?

And, for how long?


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

I could only find the Baytril prescription bottle. It was .15 ml every twelve hours for 7 days. There was also one or two pills and a water soluble med. I'd have to dig through through a stack of vet invoices to find the others. I will if it helps.


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

I found the invoice, it was only 3 types of medicine. The other two were Metronidazole 250 mg and L S50 (Linco/Streptomycin), no amount on the invoice. Also no dosages on the invoice.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

7 Days would not be enough to clear them of Salmonella, and probably would not be long eough to clear them of some of the other usual suspects.


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks, pdpbison. I will look into that. It would be nice to let them hatch one healthy chick, though I'm not interested in breeding otherwise, just rescues.

Any idea whether I should give Jada more calcium supplements? It seemed like happy days were here again when I started them. The regression has started on the second of reduced treatment (1 pill a day instead of two).


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

atti said:


> Problem is today was her last day of the supplement and she's acting depressed, not eating much and at times sitting in the hunched position. She's already been getting a little more calcium than advised just because of the size of the pills. Should I go back to two a day? For how long? Is it possible to give too much, and what would be the symptoms?


Hi Atti, in my opinion the calcium would not be doing what you describe, but there could have been some internal problems associated with the laying of this egg that may have caused an infection to set in. As a precaution, I myself, would start her right away an a broad spectrum antibiotic to ensure that if this is the case, she is being covered.


Good luck,


Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A good combo for suspected Oviduct infections...would be the Triple Sulfa, Metronidazole, and, a good broad Spectrum Anti-biotic of the Cipro or related kind.


As Karyn mentions, the laying trouble may have been due to some low grade chronic issue, rather than from a Calcium intake related issue ( especially if their prior Babys were not viable ).

But, hard to guess from here what that might be in specific terms, so...


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

She hasn't actually had any laying problems, or at least she wasn't egg bound. I should have made that more clear. One egg was laid either Thursday night or Friday morning, she showed symptoms Saturday morning and laid the next one that evening so she was on schedule. I just tried the treatments for being egg bound because I know how serious it can be.

What would be the best broad spectrum antibiotic if needed, and is it something I could order? My avian vet is very thorough but he wouldn't give me a prescription without seeing her again.
In the space of 8 months all three of my cats needed multiple vet visits, each for different conditions, and the pigeons were brought in once. I'm drowning in credit card debt. I wish I could bring her in.

Edited to add: Thank you, Dobato, pdpbison and spirit wings for all your advice. Sorry I forgot to say that sooner.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

I have found what we tend to do, including myself, is to at times rationalize things in away to give the best scenario to a present issue, but down the road a bit, we may perhaps wish we listen to what our intuition was telling us at the time, that something is amiss. As I mentioned with your hen, I don't see calcium causing her present down turn in condition, but what you describe are pretty classic symptoms of an ill bird. It really would be best, again IMO, to get her started sooner, rather than later, on perhaps something like Trimethoprim/Sulfa or Baytril/Enrofloxacin (or a few others, as well) and see how she responds to treatment, you may even have something on hand for you or your family that could work. Also depending where you are you can get meds from farm and feed stores or even from tropical fish stores.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi atti,

The Trmethoprim-Sulfa, and, Enroflaxyn ( Baytril/Cipro equivilent ) can be had on-line, Mail Order, from various of the Pigeon Supply outfits.


"DIVET" is the name of one of the Trimetoprim-Sulfa Meds in Tablet form, but it can also be had in Powder form.

I doubt your Vet would be able to offer much in this instance, even with expensive tests, cultures and so on, especially if the Vet is not coming from long actual experience with their own Pigeons.


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

Thank you so much, again, pdpbison. Any idea how long I should treat them and should I treat them with both sulfa and baytril? Tablets are definitely preferable. 

I did give her another dose of calcium. I am worried about over doing it but I can't deny the dramatic improvement I saw in her when she was getting two pills a day.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I forget now...but, do your Birds have easy access to Oyster Shell Grit - Pigeon Grit? As it were?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

atti said:


> Thank you so much, again, pdpbison. Any idea how long I should treat them and should I treat them with both sulfa and baytril? Tablets are definitely preferable.
> 
> I did give her another dose of calcium. I am worried about over doing it but I can't deny the dramatic improvement I saw in her when she was getting two pills a day.


I think you can stop the calcium treatment, and treat with either Baytril or Trimethoprim/Sulfa for 10 days, do not treat with both meds at the same time. Again, I think the prudent thing to do would be to get treatment started for her tomorrow, or tonight if you have the meds on hand, as I do not like her sudden decline in condition.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Karyn,


Why not use Baytril and Triple-Sulfa at the same time?



Maybe I have been goofing up? ( Oh no! Could happen though...)



Phil
Lv


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Just thought it worth mentioning that calcium supplements will absorb antibiotics & reduce their effectiveness. So there's no point in offering calcium ionce you begin serious treatment with antibiotics.

So Phil, you use Baytril and Sulfa drugs together then? I would have though that would be a very potent mix, but has it worked for you? I suppose if you're tube feeding it might be ok, since the nausea is overridden and the pigeon is forced to eat. I have trouble getting very ill birds to eat just on Sulfa drugs, and if I add too much to the mix they can get very nauseous and throw up.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Bella, 


The Calcium conflict I believe is limited to those Anti-Biotics which are of the Tetracycline family only.


I have used Baytril or Enroflaxyn concurrently with 'DIVET' ( a Trimethoprim and Sulfaquinoxaline combo ) and I recall no nausia or throwing up issues with it.

But, maybe I should not have been using these together?

I do not know what the conflict would be, and, I would like to be informed about it if there is some sort of bad drug-interaction issue with those.


Karyn? Where'd ye go?


Phil
L v


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

The vet does not need to have to have experience with pigeons to read lab test that come back to him/her, you can get meds on your own from pigeon supply after you get the results..


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Bella,
> 
> The Calcium conflict I believe is limited to those Anti-Biotics which are of the Tetracycline family only.
> 
> ...


Phil, I went to bed after my last post, I am not in your time zone so it was much later for me . I made the post because Atti asked about giving these meds together and off the top of my head, I didn't recall ever seeing this combination, Baytril (a fluoroquinolone and Trimethoprim/Sulfa (basically a sulfonamide), recommended together. I had a quick look just now just now, based on your question, and I couldn't fine one treatment regimen, either in animals or humans, where it was suggested that this would be a good combination or they would work synergistically together, it was either one or the other. By the same token, I did not see any counter indications or conflicts of doing so. Therefore, I can only surmise, without doing a more exhaustive study, that this combination has been tried in studies and there was no benefit to be gained by using them in combination, than over single drug therapy of each.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ahhhhh...okay...

Thanks Karyn!


Phil
Lv


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## atti (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm about to order Divet tablets from Foy's. I didn't see Baytril but is there any benefit to using one over the other?

Hate to make her wait but I'm afraid I have no choice.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

atti said:


> I'm about to order Divet tablets from Foy's. I didn't see Baytril but is there any benefit to using one over the other?
> 
> Hate to make her wait but I'm afraid I have no choice.


Without too long an explanation, they both will treat for paratyphoid (salmonella), only Trimethoprim/Sulfa (Divet) will treat for coccidiosis, only Baytril(Enrofloxacin is noted for clearing the carry state of paratyphoid in pigeons. Most times lately, myself, I have been using Trimethoprim/Sulfa a my first choice when starting a broad spectrum antibiotic.

I am not sure if it's a good idea to make her wait for meds to come, as this will take a number of days. A couple of in between options for you are to check family and friends to see what they have on hand in the way of antibiotics, and as I mentioned before, tropical fish stores many times have meds that can work. Still order the meds, but see what you can get your hands on right away.

Karyn


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