# Birds vomiting and losing head feathers



## GaryWCo (Apr 19, 2011)

My birds have raced only three times this season. Some of the birds have begun vomitng up their seeds at night and losing their head feathers..molting look. Droppings remain solid. Other birds in the loft looking perfect.

I have indentified and separated affected birds and placed them on Amoxicillin. The remaining flock I begun on Vita King 5 in 1.

Any idea of what I might be dealing with? Is it respiratory? Is it Adeno virus?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Have you treated them for canker? 
You can give the birds that have been vomiting, a drop of pepto bismo and most often that will stop the vomiting. Treat them for canker[for 5 days] and hand feed them if they aren't eating on their own.
The 5 in 1 is worthless as it doesn't have enough of any one medication to do much of anything but cause resistance to the medications contained. You are far better off investing in an individual canker, coccidia and antibiotic.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

GaryWCo said:


> My birds have raced only three times this season. Some of the birds have begun vomitng up their seeds at night and losing their head feathers..molting look. Droppings remain solid. Other birds in the loft looking perfect.
> 
> I have indentified and separated affected birds and placed them on Amoxicillin. The remaining flock I begun on Vita King 5 in 1.
> 
> Any idea of what I might be dealing with? Is it respiratory? Is it Adeno virus?


Get yourself a copy of Sigel's 2012-13 Catalog and read the various symptoms listed on the inside covers for various illnesses and the treatments. 

If it is a virus, you must remember what most people tend to forget, there is no antibiotic that will treat a virus. So if that is what your birds have, then the Amoxicillin or 5 in 1 should have no impact on a virus. It will simply have to run it's course. If they do seem to improve, then it was not a virus.

Treating with all those various antibiotics will of course kill off all of the good bacteria, and will then open the door to a viral attack. 

If I was going to take a wild guess, I would suspect that what your birds might have is E. Coli or Salmonellosis. Dr. Colin Walker has developed a treatment for this called "Sulfa AVS" and requires a two week treatment. After you have treated for these two weeks I would then vaccinate with the Sal-Bac vaccine, follow directions on bottle for 2nd dose. 

As a regular ongoing prevention, I would put a good quality Apple Cider Vinegar in the bird's water. You add about 1 tablespoon per gallon of fresh clean water, and do this for several days then give them a probiotic for a day, followed with three days of ACV and then the probiotic again. This will tend to keep the system more acidic which is good for the good bacteria, and bad for the bad bacteria. This ongoing routine will help prevent the birds from getting sick in the first place.

The loss of head feathers sounds like normal feather replacement to me, and nothing to be concerned about.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

"This will tend to keep the system more acidic which is good for the good bacteria, and bad for the bad bacteria"

Smith, there is misconception that because the ACV feels acid,it's acid. But it's wrong

*The ACV is alkaline, therefore it's raises PH towards alkaline in the blood*, which is best for the body . A bird or human with acidic system will be drowsy, tired, inactive, depressed, nausea, prone to diseases.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Dima said:


> "This will tend to keep the system more acidic which is good for the good bacteria, and bad for the bad bacteria"
> 
> Smith, there is misconception that because the ACV feels acid,it's acid. But it's wrong
> 
> *The ACV is alkaline, therefore it's raises PH towards alkaline in the blood*, which is best for the body . A bird or human with acidic system will be drowsy, tired, inactive, depressed, nausea, prone to diseases.


 Do I have it backwards ? Does bleach make the water more alkaline or more acidic ?


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

GaryWCo said:


> My birds have raced only three times this season. Some of the birds have begun vomitng up their seeds at night and losing their head feathers..molting look. Droppings remain solid. Other birds in the loft looking perfect.
> 
> I have indentified and separated affected birds and placed them on Amoxicillin. The remaining flock I begun on Vita King 5 in 1.
> 
> Any idea of what I might be dealing with? Is it respiratory? Is it Adeno virus?


Gary, are your sick birds drinking more then normal ? They can aspirate themselves if so, when regurgitating. Don't let them our indulge by restricting they're water intake if so.
Kurps


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/5...fect-your-bodys-ph/?utm_source=RELARTICLES_R1

.....Infection Cure

Drinking apple cider vinegar may play a role in changing your body's pH level, especially in terms of fighting infection. According to Thomas Baroody, author of "Alkalinize or Die," urinary tract infections occur when the urinary tract and urine are too acidic on the pH scale. Though acidic outside of the body, *vinegar becomes alkaline in the digestive tract*, according to Baroody, and it can help to prevent infections.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/5...r-vinegar-affect-your-bodys-ph/#ixzz2737NUmdq

OK, I stand corrected, the ACV causes the intestinal tract to become more alkaline, which is bad for bad bacteria.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree with Warren that it may be e-coli, especially with racers, all a bird has to do is land somewhere and eat or drink something it shouldn't have and it doesn't necessarily mean your bird, it may be someone else's bird in the shipping crate that vomited seed and 1 of your birds ate it. Your bird flew home, got sick and vomited seed in your loft and more of your birds ate that, and so on and so on. Get up in the early morning before liight with flashlight and i wouldn't be surprised that you will find more seed. You will probably have to clean up the loft a few days before light. Do not let any birds out or train until you have things under control.
Kurps


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Do I have it backwards ? Does bleach make the water more alkaline or more acidic ?


Bleach is more than 10 ph, whatever is more than 7 ph makes is alkaline.
Alkaline is what body needs, not acid.
I do not now chemistry so well, so i wouldnt know how bleach reacts with Hydrogen ions from the water. But for sure bleach is alkaline.I will look into the chemistry formulas and try to give you an answer over the weekend.


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## GaryWCo (Apr 19, 2011)

Thank you all for weighing on this.

The birds could very well have a virus. Viruses have to run their course. If they do, it can severly weaken their immune system and make them susceptible to many others. Hence the use of the 5 in 1.

The birds have been vacinated PMV, Paratyphoid, and POX. During the week they recived ACV and Winsmore on alternating days. I own Dr. Walker's Pigeon Health Management book and have looked at all of the symtopns for all of the typical and atypical disease. Same thing with Siegels catalog. The common thread for most of those diseases and viruses are lose droppings. It's not an issue with my birds.

This came on them very quickly. I've completed 2 days now of 5 in 1 and they appear to be recoverig very nicely. I'm surprised at how quickly they appear to be rebounding. I'm guardedly optimistic at this point.

Following the conclusion of the medicinal treatment, I'm going to proceed with Pro-Vital Pigeon Boost Powder and Pro-E-Mune Biotic Powder. Vitamins and to boost their to aid intheir recovery and boost their immune system.

I'm happy to receive all of your input and advice.


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## Dima (Jan 15, 2011)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Get yourself a copy of Sigel's 2012-13 Catalog and read the various symptoms listed on the inside covers for various illnesses and the treatments.
> 
> If it is a virus, you must remember what most people tend to forget, there is no antibiotic that will treat a virus. So if that is what your birds have, then the Amoxicillin or 5 in 1 should have no impact on a virus. It will simply have to run it's course. If they do seem to improve, then it was not a virus.
> 
> ...


The bolded sentence it's wrong. Acidic makes bacteria thrive. From the link you send it says clearly:
_Since the bacteria that cause food poisoning thrive in an acidic environment, drinking apple cider vinegar diluted in water may cut back your symptoms, according to Baroody._

ACV neutralizes acidic "enviroment", therefore is good.
One thing we have in common it that ACV is great for health.


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

Glad to hear your birds are on the mend Gary.



Dima said:


> The bolded sentence it's wrong. Acidic makes bacteria thrive. From the link you send it says clearly:
> _Since the bacteria that cause food poisoning thrive in an acidic environment, drinking apple cider vinegar diluted in water may cut back your symptoms, according to Baroody._
> 
> ACV neutralizes acidic "enviroment", therefore is good.
> One thing we have in common it that ACV is great for health.


I read somewhere which i don't recall that they recommend using a ACV mixture to kill bacteria in waterers and such. Sorry to them i can't give them credit.
Kurps


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Dima said:


> Bleach is more than 10 ph, whatever is more than 7 ph makes is alkaline.
> Alkaline is what body needs, not acid.
> I do not now chemistry so well, so i wouldnt know how bleach reacts with Hydrogen ions from the water. But for sure bleach is alkaline.I will look into the chemistry formulas and try to give you an answer over the weekend.


 Well if bleach is that high of a ph, when did giving ACV become preferable to adding bleach to the water and why ? Certainly a lot of good can come from adding some portion of bleach to the water. I know there are some long term effects from too much ACV in the water. 

Once the birds are already sick, I am pretty sure that neither will be a good "cure", but apparently they do aid in some level of prevention.


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

*Look for simple things 1st*

Regurgitating & not looking so good, The "1st thing I would do is Worm them". You have done PMV, & Sal. vaccinations, so look at the common, most likely things.. I use Ivomec, when racing every 28-30days. & have done very well. You gave 5 in 1 that surely has Wormer in it, so may take care of your problems. Just give worm med again in 20-30 days.. Common to throw up with worms... Good Luck, Happy


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## GaryWCo (Apr 19, 2011)

Thank you all for your input. Birds have recovered very nicely and have resumed training.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

GaryWCo said:


> Thank you all for your input. Birds have recovered very nicely and have resumed training.



If they recovered this quickly, then we know that what your birds had, was not E coli or Salmonella, as that would have required two weeks of treatment. Since you were treating with 5 in 1, we will have to assume it was something else.


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