# How I know, Feral Pigeons can Home...



## Charis

In 1994, my husband convinced me that we had too many feral rehabbed pigeons, living in our small coop and that we needed to relocate some of them. I made some calls and learned that in a neighboring community, the city park had many Feral Pigeons that were supported with food. 
I visited the park several times and witnessed folks feeding the Pigeons and so it seemed like a perfectly good place to release a few. That Saturday, we drove some 15 miles to release 20 into the flock in the park. The day was perfect and when we got to the park, the resident flock was feeding. Out our birds went and mingled with the flock and began to eat too. We watched for a little while and left, me with a heavy heart because I was worried about them. On the way home we stopped and had a bit of lunch and then drove on home. As we rounded the corner to pull in the drive-way, all 20 Pigeons were sitting on the roof of the house. Not only did they have lunch out but they got home before we did.
About 1 1/2 years later, we tried again. I met a fellow at the feed store that kept Pigeons in Washington State, up I-5 about 45-50 miles. He agreed to take 20 Pigeons. I checked his place out first and he had aviary ready for them and it seemed ideal. He thought that since they were FERAL PIGEONS, if he kept them in a month, that would be adequate.
The following Saturday we took them to his place. Within a couple of days, a couple escaped and I found them in the coop. I called and asked if he was missing a couple of birds and sure enough, he was. I decided those could stay.
After 30 days, he let the others all out to free fly and they all came home here... not to him. 
That's how I know that Feral Pigeons can home if they want.


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## feralpigeon

Charis, 

These are great stories that you share w/the forum and perfect examples of 
the homing instinct that ferals have whether dormant or put to use through
a created need. Racers/homers have the need cultivated which brings the natural gift to the forefront. By providing a home where life's necessities were always available, you in essence cultivated the homing instinct latent in ferals though not always utilized because the ferals' lifestyle doesn't tend to require
using their 'homing gift'.

fp


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## george simon

*The truth is most birds have some homing instinct. If this was not so they would never find the nest with their young. There are birds that migrate 1,000's of miles to certain areas and then the following year return to the area that they were in the year before,while these birds do not rerturn to the same tree that they used the year before, you can bet they are close enough after flying 1,000 or2,000 miles.The differenct with racers is they can find the loft from which they were sent.To compare a feral bird to a race bird is wrong these birds have a place in the scheme of things there are many people that live in cities that never get to see much in the way of wild life.Look at the old folks that sit in the park and feed these birds or the youngster that feeds these birds,think of the enjoyment that these people get from this simple act of feeding.They enjoy this as much as those of us that see our race bird come home,or win at a show,I say enjoy the birds for what they are. *MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL AND TO ALL A HAPPY NEW YEAR .GEORGE


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## Charis

george simon said:


> *The truth is most birds have some homing instinct. If this was not so they would never find the nest with their young. There are birds that migrate 1,000's of miles to certain areas and then the following year return to the area that they were in the year before,while these birds do not rerturn to the same tree that they used the year before, you can bet they are close enough after flying 1,000 or2,000 miles.The differenct with racers is they can find the loft from which they were sent.To compare a feral bird to a race bird is wrong these birds have a place in the scheme of things there are many people that live in cities that never get to see much in the way of wild life.Look at the old folks that sit in the park and feed these birds or the youngster that feeds these birds,think of the enjoyment that these people get from this simple act of feeding.They enjoy this as much as those of us that see our race bird come home,or win at a show,I say enjoy the birds for what they are. *MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL AND TO ALL A HAPPY NEW YEAR .GEORGE


Well...my rehabbed Feral Pigeons did return to the exact same place...my roof...the coop in my yard. The point is that they can do it if they want....they have it in them and to be clear...I'm NOT saying that folks should take Feral Pigeons for this purpose.


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## Jay3

george simon said:


> *The truth is most birds have some homing instinct. If this was not so they would never find the nest with their young. There are birds that migrate 1,000's of miles to certain areas and then the following year return to the area that they were in the year before,while these birds do not rerturn to the same tree that they used the year before, you can bet they are close enough after flying 1,000 or2,000 miles.The differenct with racers is they can find the loft from which they were sent.To compare a feral bird to a race bird is wrong these birds have a place in the scheme of things there are many people that live in cities that never get to see much in the way of wild life.Look at the old folks that sit in the park and feed these birds or the youngster that feeds these birds,think of the enjoyment that these people get from this simple act of feeding.They enjoy this as much as those of us that see our race bird come home,or win at a show,I say enjoy the birds for what they are. .GEORGE*


*


Hi George. Truth is that many of the birds that migrate actually do come back to the very same yard. Now if they can find the very same yard, I doubt that they would have a difficult time finding the same tree.
Of course ferrals can home. Ferrals, most of them, are descendents of escaped homers. ALL pigeons can home. Of course, homing pigeons have been bred for a long time, to strengthen that ability. So it would be reasonable to say that homers can home better, and from longer distances, but ferrals also have this ability. I have heard many stories about ferrals returning home from some pretty good distances. Many of the fancy pigeons couldn't find their way home from next door, but that is only because they have had the homing instinct bred out of them in favor of other attributes. But not so in the case of the ferral. Now, I think anyone who raises and flies homing pigeons has a right to be proud of their birds ability to home, and to do it at such fast speeds. I know I would be proud of them if I had a great race team. As would any one. Understandably. But lets not be a lineage snob. Homing is a natural instinct in pigeons. The pigeon had it long before man discovered it, and began to use it to his advantage. But homing is a trait that all pigeons possess NATURALLY. *


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## george simon

*I see that you seem to have miss the point of my post who cares if a feral can home the point is ENJOY YOUR BIRDS FOR WHAT EVER THEY ARE*GEORGE


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## spirit wings

That is really cool charis!....I worry so much each time I take mine down the road for training, I will remember this story next time I take them out to fly...it reminds me how capable they really are.


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## Charis

I gave up trying to place those Pigeons because they always escaped and came back.


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## Jay3

george simon said:


> *I see that you seem to have miss the point of my post who cares if a feral can home GEORGE*


*


Apparently Charis does, and a few others. I don't believe I missed anything. I believe it was HER post to begin with.*


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## TerriB

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Charis. I'm sure those birds recognized the great home they had! Just curious - had any of those returning birds raised young at your place?


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## Charis

TerriB said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences, Charis. I'm sure those birds recognized the great home they had! Just curious - had any of those returning birds raised young at your place?


Yes they have.


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## Ivor

Oh Charis thank you for sharing that story with us, it remind me an adult pigeon that I rescued a couple years ago, and when she was healthy again, she start flying with the same flock that she was before, but she was coming back at 5pm every day, she was waiting outside right in front of my house, until someone open the door for her, she always used the principal door to come in, and we were trying to remember her time, sometimes I was still at work but my father was still alive and he was remembering the time, it was part of his job, and she was sleeping inside in a big box with holes that I used when she was sick, eventually she decided that was time to go, and she start coming just for food and with a partner, and then I never saw her again, we don't know if she died of something happen to her, but we still remember her, she was very special, never let anybody touch her, I was the only one that was able to touch her but only when was necessary, when she was sick or when was bed time. 

They are unique, and the pigeon that I have is more than a pet and he was a feral baby, I honestly don't see any difference at all, they all have feelings and know who love them and take care of them.

Ivette


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## Charis

Ivor said:


> Oh Charis thank you for sharing that story with us, it remind me an adult pigeon that I rescued a couple years ago, and when she was healthy again, she start flying with the same flock that she was before, but she was coming back at 5pm every day, she was waiting outside right in front of my house, until someone open the door for her, she always used the principal door to come in, and we were trying to remember her time, sometimes I was still at work but my father was still alive and he was remembering the time, it was part of his job, and she was sleeping inside in a big box with holes that I used when she was sick, eventually she decided that was time to go, and she start coming just for food and with a partner, and then I never saw her again, we don't know if she died of something happen to her, but we still remember her, she was very special, never let anybody touch her, I was the only one that was able to touch her but only when was necessary, when she was sick or when was bed time.
> 
> They are unique, and the pigeon that I have is more than a pet and he was a feral baby, I honestly don't see any difference at all, they all have feelings and know who love them and take care of them.
> 
> Ivette


I absolutely love your story. What a smart Pigeon. Thank you for sharing it .


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## Jay3

That was a nice story. Thanks.


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## RodSD

Feral pigeons do have homing abilities. But they probably also have maximum range that they can go to. I provided the link last time when a PhD candidate did his thesis on it.

We must also know how we define ferals. Ferals can be the wild type rock dove variety. It can also be crossbred homers (homers mated with wild rock type). It can also be plain homers that got lost. Because of that we can find different homing range.

So I don't know whether we have any arguments here. In fact I would say that even homers have maximum homing range.


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## Grimaldy

Actually RodSD,

the "racial" theory of breeding has been obsolete for over 10 years now. Absent an examination of the genome, it would be impossible to distinguish learned behavior from genetics. Or what comprises "feral" for that matter.


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## Pegasus

RodSD said:


> So I don't know whether we have any arguments here.


RodSD; No more arguement ...New Years is coming and we just had a Chrismas and it's the symbol of peace and love to each other, no matter how ______ is other mind are... Can't we all get along ...

I don't argue (I comment/discuss/talk over) just stating what I think I know and what I think is right thing to do...


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## spirit wings

Grimaldy said:


> Actually RodSD,
> 
> the "racial" theory of breeding has been obsolete for over 10 years now. Absent an examination of the genome, it would be impossible to distinguish learned behavior from genetics. Or what comprises "feral" for that matter.


I need this explained in "plaine folk talk" to understand this..... a short interesting info below is from wikipedia about the feral pigeon.



Many domestic birds have escaped or been released over the years, and have given rise to the feral pigeon. These show a variety of plumages, although some have the blue barred pattern like the pure Rock Pigeon does. Feral pigeons are found in large numbers in cities and towns all over the world.[25] The scarcity of the pure wild species is partly due to interbreeding with feral birds.[11]


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## Charis

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v139/n3514/abs/139415a0.html


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## Grimaldy

Hi spiritwings,

I have never understood why the folks at Wikipedia ever though that lack of peer review for their articles would ever provide anything but junk.

There are a number of books written about early (17th and 18th century) American settlers who were captured by Indians and who escaped; they all talk about catching wild pigeons to survive. Where people come up with the idea that feral pigeons are escaped domestics is beyond me; but certainly is no more than pure speculation. There is certainly evidence available that the ferals were around before people started domesticating them.

My remark to RodSD is that we would need to see the pigeon DNA mapped out so that it could be compared with the DNA combinations found in the ferals as well as the domestics. If the DNA is the same, obviously the behavior is either learned or the DNA expresses different proteins. IF the DNA is different in significant regard, that would suggest that ferals and domestics are really two different kinds of birds. DNA studies in humans for instance, have charted where our remote ancestors were born, where they traveled to in migrations, what the difference are between African-Americans, Asians, North and Southern Europeans, and so on. It would also explain a great deal about birds, particularly the great reptile-mammal controversy.


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## spirit wings

Grimaldy said:


> Hi spiritwings,
> 
> I have never understood why the folks at Wikipedia ever though that lack of peer review for their articles would ever provide anything but junk.
> 
> There are a number of books written about early (17th and 18th century) American settlers who were captured by Indians and who escaped; they all talk about catching wild pigeons to survive. Where people come up with the idea that feral pigeons are escaped domestics is beyond me; but certainly is no more than pure speculation. There is certainly evidence available that the ferals were around before people started domesticating them.
> 
> My remark to RodSD is that we would need to see the pigeon DNA mapped out so that it could be compared with the DNA combinations found in the ferals as well as the domestics. If the DNA is the same, obviously the behavior is either learned or the DNA expresses different proteins. IF the DNA is different in significant regard, that would suggest that ferals and domestics are really two different kinds of birds. DNA studies in humans for instance, have charted where our remote ancestors were born, where they traveled to in migrations, what the difference are between African-Americans, Asians, North and Southern Europeans, and so on. It would also explain a great deal about birds, particularly the great reptile-mammal controversy.


The way I understand it and it did'nt seem that complicated, is that wild pigeons where caught and domesticated by humans, we bred all kinds from this wild bird to make all the breeds we see today. these are lost by fanciers and go live in the wild and breed with the wild pigeons and then being considerd a feral not really wild anymore, but I do think as they interbreed they go back to the look more of their wild originators. this is the rock dove Im talking about,The species was first introduced to North America in 1606 at Port Royal, Nova Scotia. That is what I have learned and I don't see any reason not to believe otherwise. The passenger pigeon has a different outcome and story for that species.


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## Grimaldy

That is certainly the pattern humans have followed in the domestication of the horse, the dog, the cat, the ferret, the chicken, turkey, etc.


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## feralpigeon

Grimaldy said:


> Hi spiritwings,
> 
> ...........
> "There are a number of books written about early (17th and 18th century) American settlers who were captured by Indians and who escaped; they all talk about catching wild pigeons to survive.
> ..........


We do have (and have had in the instance of the Passenger Pigeon) pigeons that are indigenous species and it may also be that when writing about surviving, the authors weren't specific about the kind of pigeon they were relying on. Certainly the Passenger Pigeon was hunted into extinction. Be that as it may, feral pigeons were apparently here in North America some 400 years ago from the European settlers coming in through Canada.

Part of the confusion regarding the label "feral" might come from the fact that
there are a couple of different definitions of the word "feral". One definition
refers to being "wild" and one defintion refers to having _escaped from domestication and become wild._ See the following link:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feral

The rock dove as the feral is concerned, was wild, became domesticated and
escaped to become 'wild' once again. The rock dove was the first bird to
become domesticated, and according to many sources, this domestication
took place between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago.

Personally, whether the original rock dove, the domesticated pigeon or the
feral population, I think they share many common traits while differences also exist because like all life forms they adapt as needed to environment and circumstances in order to survive. This is a very interesting article on the topic from Richard F. Johnston, who is
"Professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Emeritus at The University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS 66047-2906. His professional area of study is the ecology of birds with a focus on English sparrows and feral pigeons. " The quote is from this link which also includes his article on feral pigeons:

http://www.emporia.edu/ksn/v45n2-december1998/KSNVOL45-2.htm

fp


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## feralpigeon

Regarding the homing capabilities of feral pigeons, I have a couple of stories on the topic.....A friend of mine had feral pigeons hanging out at his home and his
wife would get upset as their population would sometimes seem unwieldy. She 
would talk him into loading up the truck w/the ferals and driving from the Oakland hills through the Caldecott Tunnel and to Mount Diablo where they
would release the feral pigeons. After doing this several times, his wife finally
gave up the notion as each time, they would return home to find the feral
pigeons had beaten them back home when they would pull into the driveway.
The total trip was in the range of twenty plus miles.

I recently released a resue from my home and the bird was gone approximately two days. I came home for lunch and heard a ruckus on the metal awning in the back of the house and realized it sounded like pigeon feet. I ran outside to the backyard and the bird circled then flew off. After going back inside, I heard the same thing and this time when I went outside, the bird circled and landed on my head. I recognized the bird and brought her inside ..... and the bird? She grunted w/relief w/every step I took back into the house. She had had some kind of a run in and was missing many of her tail feathers and glad to be "home".

fp


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## Grimaldy

Beyond question there is a certain amount of "switching" that takes place as domesticated pigeons take to the wild life. Possibly some revert to domesticated status but from what I have seen of breeders, I think it is highly unlikely. The descriptive term "feral" as applied to escaped domestics simply describes status, rather than habitat. Domesticated pigeons are almost always healthier, bigger and bolder. As far as breeding a feral to a domesticated bird, possible but when breeders are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for domestic birds, I would think the possibility is remote.

Thank-you for the cite to Professor Johnson's book; it should be a worthwhile read.

I have always been leery of releasing rescues from my home; almost invariably they disappear after a week or so and I believe it is because of the large number of hawks we have around here. In the city they don't have hawks but humans, automobiles, electric wires, etc. But whenever I have, every evening they would be sitting on the backporch waiting for someone to open the door so they can come in.


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## TAWhatley

feralpigeon said:


> http://www.emporia.edu/ksn/v45n2-december1998/KSNVOL45-2.htm


That is an interesting and very pro-pigeon article! Thanks for the link!

Terry


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## RodSD

I defined "ferals" with 3 distinct different variety for clarity. I thought it would have cleared things up, but apparently ended up with more discussions. It is the unfortunate way of how we define things that confuses us. For example, a true homer (perhaps with 3 different breeds crossed to it) that gets lost and ended up in the streets can be called "ferals." There is also that wild rock type dove that perhaps is the ancestor of all we see things now. And the mixture of those two. I honestly don't know or heard about that "racial" discussion.

If we map the feral pigeon DNA we would probably find very same DNA compared to other pigeons. I think humans and chimpanzees have very similar DNA sequence. I honestly don't feel like searching info again about DNA difference between "ferals" and homers. I am getting tired discussing this feral concepts.

I don't want to get into "nature and nurture" argument. I got sick discussing that back in college. I rather say it is both nature and nurture.


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## UncleBuck

Your story about releasing the pigeons made me laugh. 
When I was younger I had some rollers and some homers. I sold some to an older guy who was "To smart to listen to what a youngster had to say to him" and he took them home. About a month later, I went out and had four pigeons on my trap board. I let them in and check the bands, sure enough they were the bird I sold to that smart older gentleman.
I think I sold those pigeons three or four times before the last person was really smart enough to keep them in the flight pen.
I honestly believe the birds do have a certain amount of homing ability, made stronger by the good treatment you give them. Heck, my wife cooks a great meal, keeps a wonderful house, and lets me think I am in charge... I keep coming home. Maybe the birds are like that also.


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## RodSD

LOL UncleBuck! Does your wife whistles, too , before the food is serve?


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## Charis

RodSD said:


> I defined "ferals" with 3 distinct different variety for clarity. I thought it would have cleared things up, but apparently ended up with more discussions. It is the unfortunate way of how we define things that confuses us. For example, a true homer (perhaps with 3 different breeds crossed to it) that gets lost and ended up in the streets can be called "ferals." There is also that wild rock type dove that perhaps is the ancestor of all we see things now. And the mixture of those two. I honestly don't know or heard about that "racial" discussion.
> 
> If we map the feral pigeon DNA we would probably find very same DNA compared to other pigeons. I think humans and chimpanzees have very similar DNA sequence. I honestly don't feel like searching info again about DNA difference between "ferals" and homers. I am getting tired discussing this feral concepts.
> 
> I don't want to get into "nature and nurture" argument. I got sick discussing that back in college. I rather say it is both nature and nurture.


Rod...it's ok...you don't need to clear anything up or define "Ferals" and don't worry about doing any more searching regarding differences.
My experience with "Ferals homing" is first hand experience. I know they can do it and that's what I wanted to share with you all. I felt I needed to clear some things up by creating my own thread.
I would love to read more stories members may have regarding "Ferals Homing".


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## Charis

UncleBuck said:


> Your story about releasing the pigeons made me laugh.
> When I was younger I had some rollers and some homers. I sold some to an older guy who was "To smart to listen to what a youngster had to say to him" and he took them home. About a month later, I went out and had four pigeons on my trap board. I let them in and check the bands, sure enough they were the bird I sold to that smart older gentleman.
> I think I sold those pigeons three or four times before the last person was really smart enough to keep them in the flight pen.
> I honestly believe the birds do have a certain amount of homing ability, made stronger by the good treatment you give them. Heck, my wife cooks a great meal, keeps a wonderful house, and lets me think I am in charge... I keep coming home. Maybe the birds are like that also.


Were these Rollers that homed?


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## UncleBuck

Yes they were rollers. If I remember correctly, they were birmingham roller and grahm fireball rollers. Seems the people were anywhere from just a few miles away to one gentleman who was about 35 miles away.
These were fantastic birds. They would circle and perform their rolls with consistancy and seemed to enjoy flying.


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## Charis

UncleBuck said:


> Yes they were rollers. If I remember correctly, they were birmingham roller and grahm fireball rollers. Seems the people were anywhere from just a few miles away to one gentleman who was about 35 miles away.
> These were fantastic birds. They would circle and perform their rolls with consistancy and seemed to enjoy flying.


Did they home to you with a Homer you had given to the fellow too or were they on their own?


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## Jay3

Well, this isn't first hand experience, but there is a little shop I frequent, and in talking to the woman who owns it, I found out that her family used to have some pet pigeons, that were caught as ferrals. They had them for several years, and of course had offspring from them. Anyway, later, for some reason, it got to be too much for her dad, and he wanted to get rid of them. He released them somewhere, but they beat them home. So he drove them 50 miles away, released them again, and again they returned. Someone told him that he would have to tear down his loft to stop them from returning, so that is what he finally did. The birds still hung around for a few weeks, but eventually, they left. All I could think of when she told me this story was that it was mean, and I wondered how they survived. It isn't a very nice story, but it does show that ferrals can find their way home from some distance.


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## Maggie-NC

We have released hundreds of ferals back into the wild after rehabbing them. When we first started caring for pigeons, they were released maybe five - seven miles from home and none came back. 

We live in a rural area and about a mile away (as the pigeon flies ) there is a perfect location - 2 ponds, barns, open fields that are usually planted with grain and there are also cows. We tried releasing about six there and within a few days, two or three came back. We went back to releasing them farther away - about 10 miles and none have ever come back. 

Our most recent release was about three months ago. This time, we kept those pigeons in the house during their entire convalescence, letting them exercise inside. Those we took to the nearby farm area I mentioned and not one came back so I think that is what we will do from now on. I think if they can't see where they are located - like being in one of our aviaries - they don't know what to come back to.

It always worries me when we make a release because even though we try so hard to get a great location, I often think they circle the area and then leave.


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## conditionfreak

A feral is a pigon that is born and raised in the wild. A homer that gets lost and lives in the wild, is a homer that is lost and fending for itself, although an argument could be made that if it can't find its way home, it doesn't have much homing ability. A Rock Dove is a feral pigeon. A homer is a Rock Dove domesticated and bred for natural ability enhancements, but is still a Rock Dove.

Michael Jordan is a human being, no matter how good at certain things he is. A racing homer is a Rock Dove, no matter how good it is at what it does.

A racing homer is a domesticated feral pigeon, but has abilities enhanced through selective breeding.

The question is, can man enhance a Rock Doves abilities through selective breeding, better than nature can over eons? Can man produce a better cow or a better orchid, than nature?

Depends on your diffinition of "better". Man can make better pigeons for racing, but then the pigeon that he has done this with, is lacking in some things that nature instilled and gave said pigeons. Like hardiness and the ability to fend for itself. Does everyone agree that a homing pigeon is more apt at avoiding predators than a feral pigeon? Or is it the other way around? Or are they about equal in that regard?


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## feralpigeon

In a generic sense, a homer is still a rock dove though the selective breeding
has changed some of the raw material around a bit. 

If you use the definition for feral of being "wild", then a rock dove is a feral pigeon. Though if you use the definition of a domesticated animal that has 
returned to the wild, then it wouldn't quite work. 

An interesting concept that humans could cause a species to evolve "better"
than mother nature....if mother nature was allowed into the "grading process"
do you think that she would believe it better to use genetic engineering to 
produce animals for the sheer object of conforming to human whim? Anyway,
that's an interesting discussion all on its' own.

fp


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## Jay3

Lady Tarheel said:


> We have released hundreds of ferals back into the wild after rehabbing them. When we first started caring for pigeons, they were released maybe five - seven miles from home and none came back.
> 
> We live in a rural area and about a mile away (as the pigeon flies ) there is a perfect location - 2 ponds, barns, open fields that are usually planted with grain and there are also cows. We tried releasing about six there and within a few days, two or three came back. We went back to releasing them farther away - about 10 miles and none have ever come back.
> 
> Our most recent release was about three months ago. This time, we kept those pigeons in the house during their entire convalescence, letting them exercise inside. Those we took to the nearby farm area I mentioned and not one came back so I think that is what we will do from now on. I think if they can't see where they are located - like being in one of our aviaries - they don't know what to come back to.
> 
> It always worries me when we make a release because even though we try so hard to get a great location, I often think they circle the area and then leave.


Okay Maggie, were these ferrals that didn't come back born and raised in the wild? Then, when released, why would they come back to you? Would they not go back to the wild? They probably did home back to where ever it was that they came from. If you rehabbed homers, and then released them, would they come back? Or would they try to home back to where ever it was that they came from. And on the other hand, if you raised baby ferrals from the time they hatched, and trained them, and loft flew them, and they knew where their loft was, do you think that at 10 miles distance, they would not be able to find their way back?


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## Charis

Lady Tarheel said:


> We have released hundreds of ferals back into the wild after rehabbing them. When we first started caring for pigeons, they were released maybe five - seven miles from home and none came back.
> 
> We live in a rural area and about a mile away (as the pigeon flies ) there is a perfect location - 2 ponds, barns, open fields that are usually planted with grain and there are also cows. We tried releasing about six there and within a few days, two or three came back. We went back to releasing them farther away - about 10 miles and none have ever come back.
> 
> Our most recent release was about three months ago. This time, we kept those pigeons in the house during their entire convalescence, letting them exercise inside. Those we took to the nearby farm area I mentioned and not one came back so I think that is what we will do from now on. I think if they can't see where they are located - like being in one of our aviaries - they don't know what to come back to.
> 
> It always worries me when we make a release because even though we try so hard to get a great location, I often think they circle the area and then leave.


Maggie...If your rehabs have never been out to fly around at your place, they wouldn't have been able to find their way back.


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## feralpigeon

Jay3 said:


> Okay Maggie, were these ferrals that didn't come back born and raised in the wild? Then, when released, why would they come back to you? Would they not go back to the wild? They probably did home back to where ever it was that they came from. ......


That's what happened in one instance of a feral rehabbed by Dr. Shuckman and
released at his house in Lafayette. The feral flew back to it's flock in Oakland
where the flocks' feeder recognized the bird's re-entry into the flock at the park.
We're talking about a distance of over twenty miles.

fp


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## Maggie-NC

Jay3 said:


> Okay Maggie, were these ferrals that didn't come back born and raised in the wild?


Jay, I would say that most ferals that are rehabbed are born in the wild. Over the years, we have rehabbed all ages - from a few days old to adults. So, I wouldn't and couldn't say they were "raised" in the wild except for the adults. I would also agree that racing/homing pigeons would definitely try to return to their old loft.

Guys, we're not in combat here. I am not disagreeing but simply stating what has been our experience with releasing ferals. The few that did come back were released about one mile away and while they had not flown in our neighborhood, could easily see out of their aviary and get the "lay of the land" so to speak.

We had one adult pigeon that I can recall that we verified left the location we released him and flew back to the bridge where we've picked up so many. His markings and coloration were easily recognized and we saw him at the bridge for several years after that.


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## conditionfreak

I was given a 13 year old pigeon in Jacksonville, North Carolina, way back in the day, when I was stationed there in the Marines. It was from a fellow club member who said she produced many good racers and maybe, just maybe I could get another young one from her. He told me that he had had her as a prisoner for twelve years. Never let her out at his location.

I moved to Cleveland then and took the bird with me, with my other birds. About one month later, she escaped from me. Another month later I got a letter from him asking me if I "lost" something. Yep, you guessed it. She had flown back to his loft, where she had been a prisoner for 12 years, and she was thirteen years old. It was over eight hundred miles.

Sure wish I would have got some young ones from her back then.


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## Charis

conditionfreak said:


> I was given a 13 year old pigeon in Jacksonville, North Carolina, way back in the day, when I was stationed there in the Marines. It was from a fellow club member who said she produced many good racers and maybe, just maybe I could get another young one from her. He told me that he had had her as a prisoner for twelve years. Never let her out at his location.
> 
> I moved to Cleveland then and took the bird with me, with my other birds. About one month later, she escaped from me. Another month later I got a letter from him asking me if I "lost" something. Yep, you guessed it. She had flown back to his loft, where she had been a prisoner for 12 years, and she was thirteen years old. It was over eight hundred miles.
> 
> Sure wish I would have got some young ones from her back then.


There could be a Disney movie in that story!


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## Charis

Lady Tarheel said:


> Jay, I would say that most ferals that are rehabbed are born in the wild. Over the years, we have rehabbed all ages - from a few days old to adults. So, I wouldn't and couldn't say they were "raised" in the wild except for the adults. I would also agree that racing/homing pigeons would definitely try to return to their old loft.
> 
> Guys, we're not in combat here. I am not disagreeing but simply stating what has been our experience with releasing ferals. The few that did come back were released about one mile away and while they had not flown in our neighborhood, could easily see out of their aviary and get the "lay of the land" so to speak.
> 
> We had one adult pigeon that I can recall that we verified left the location we released him and flew back to the bridge where we've picked up so many. His markings and coloration were easily recognized and we saw him at the bridge for several years after that.


Maggie...in order to home, they must have had the opportunity to fly over the homeing site.


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## Jay3

Thanks Maggie. But I have heard that even homers must be trained early, before they are strong flyers. That if you wait to release them after a couple of months old, when they can fly well, that they often will take off, and fly so far that they get lost. You may never see them again. The releases you are talking about were not loft flown, or flown over your yard, which is what they would need in order to get the lay of the land, so to speak. 

You're right, we're not in combat here, just a discussion. All I'm saying is that given the same training and opportunities to learn their area, the ferrals would probably surprise a lot of people. But that means being fair, and giving them the same edge as a homer would get.


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## feralpigeon

Humans use food and seeing a mate as part of a reward system when training
homers. Take the human out of the equation and let the bird forage for food at will and see their mate at will, and you will find a homer acting like a feral.

If motivated, a feral will home. 

fp


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## conditionfreak

Having flown over their home sure enough gives them a great edge on locating their home quickly, however, as obvious from their ability to find their way home over land or water that they have never flown over, indicates to me that they do not have had to fly over their home, in order to find it.

They obviously use landmarks sometimes, but not always. Otherwise, racing pigeons would not work. They DO NOT have to have flown over their loft to find their way home. It just increases the chances, odds and speed at which they can and do it.

As my story above indicates.

How do young birds find their way to the same location as their parents and grandparents have been migrating to for centuries? Such as swallows or flamingo's?

Until we know HOW they find their way home, we can not ascertain what they need to find their way home. Current theories are that different areas of the earth, smell differently. Also, that they hone in on magnetic forces of the earth. Also that they use the position of the sun at the particular time of day as a landmark. Also that they use landmarks when they get close to home, even following roadways and such. Also that we just don't know it all.

Experiments have proven that pigeons with anti magnetic devices attached to them, can still go in the right direction of home. Also that pigeons blindfolded, will attempt to fly or walk in the correct direction of home. Also that they in fact follow roadways. In the military pigeon corps, the lofts would move miles from where the pigeon had been previously. Yet, the pigeons managed to find their mobile lofts, from the air, once they got in the "neighborhood".

Point being I guess, is if one way fails to work for them. They use another. Or they use all of the above (most likely), much as a GPS system uses three satellites in space to pinpoint a location. Not just one satellite.

If a prisoner bird has seen an adjacent structure, whether it be a garage, another pigeon coop, or some dog kennels. Once it "gets in the area" of home, it can fly around and just might find that dog kennel or garage from high above, and find its home. From up above, with the eyesight that pigeons possess, it is not unthinkable that they can locate their homes. Once they get in the area, with their homing ability. That is how the Pigeon Corps of the military worked. The lofts were, for the most part, not stationary.

At least, this is how I understand it, from reading just about everything there is on the subject, and from common sense.


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## Guest

i agree that this is a great thread but with all the speculation going on all that comes to my mind is that song with the lyrics of...
When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, 
speaking words of wisdom, let it be. 
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, 
speaking words of wisdom, let it be. 
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be. 
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. 

thats all I will add to this discussion cuz a feral is a feral and a homer is just a decendant of such said bird making them to me one in the same 
 amen


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## james fillbrook

the whole thing about ferals haqs fgone wild becase they are exetry the same as homers trust me i know


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## Charis

james fillbrook said:


> the whole thing about ferals haqs fgone wild becase they are exetry the same as homers trust me i know


Thank you. I know too.


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## Guest

my take on this again is that of course ferals can home from any distance as the whole world is their home ,they are never far from it  lol


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## UncleBuck

When I was a kid, we used to sneak under the bridges around the county and catch wild birds. I would take them home and add them to my loft. We would occasionally find one that had bee injured and nurse it back to health. The wild birds, when released, usually left the area.
Eventually my father decided I had too many pigeons and insisted I get rid of them. (Even today, I disagree with him over that!) But he did allow me to continue taking care of wounded birds. 
There was one bird I nursed back to health and eventually released. He was gone for a few days, then showed up with a couple of friends. He and his friends trapped and I had to release them again. Not knowing any better, I just threw them out the door and they took off. It seemed every couple of days I would go out to the lofts after school and he was in there with a few more of his friends. I started locking the trap so he and his buddies could not get in. Eventually they learned there was no longer a free meal and I did not see them again.


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## conditionfreak

james fillbrook said:


> the whole thing about ferals haqs fgone wild becase they are exetry the same as homers trust me i know


Do you mean "exactly" (exetry). If so, how do you know?


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## Guest

I personally think it would be more interesting to find out what happens to all those lost racing homers that never make it home myself ?


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## feralpigeon

Yup, they are one in the same bird w/the difference of 'training' which is essentially a system of human provided rewards.

fp


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