# Dilemma for freshly orphan baby pigeons needs urgent answer



## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

Hello everybody. I am new here and I have, like all of you, a good part of my life occupied with pigeons. For the last six years I lived among free pigeons, lucky --or sometimes, unlucky-- pigeons, faithful pigeons, teachers pigeons, sky testing pigeons, going far away places to always come back pigeons, fighting ferociously for my property in the woods, or their young, territories, pigeons, missed a lot when they departed over the rainbow bridge pigeons. Everything started six years ago during a frigid winter weekend check up on my PA house in the woods before coming back to NY (a winter routine for me) when I discovered a terrified pair of pigeons escaped from the infamous PA target shootings hiding behind the crossing of the eaves of my house double roof location. The story goes more than I --and you-- will find as needed in this topic, and I will continue some other times with the most wonderful and amazing Columbian saga ever lived by a human in the middle of the woods ending up with the two baby pigeons taken with me to NY last weekend after their parents, the patriarch and matriarch of the whole dynasty, died. This thread is for them and here is their present short story: 

The recently orphaned Kookla and Mookla (their names) had no survival chance if I had left them together with the rest of my featherly gang in my PA house’s attic, after Kookoo Looba, their father‘s tragic death and their mother sudden disappearance after she flew away a week later to look for him under the hawks crossed all over sky (as she always used to do in their golden years in the past). So after finding Kookla and Mookla with crops empty and motherless for at least the 2 days before and the 2 of the weekend as I noticed, I took them with me to NY. They are looking at me as I type right now in their white cage seated by my computer pecking lovingly at each other. Precociously born (after only two weeks of incubation), at their 3 week old age they don’t know to fly but are very eager to forgive me for not having pigeon milk and they, hmm… courtship each other. Yes, you heard it right, 3 week old! They learned from me to eat the unshelled sunflower seeds and drink in one day (okay, it was the other way around) and since Monday they have been eating all day long, as if trying to fill the God knows how many days empty crops void of last week. Please forgive me for such a long introduction and also please forgive if sometimes my English is not the best at recalling a story as it is not my first language.

And, finally, here is my question. As I need to go to PA to take care of the rest of “my” feathery gang after a huge absence at the end of this week, I am in a big dilemma about what to do with Kookla and Mookla: (1) should I take them with me there, and then again, back here when I come back after a week so that the two days of the weekend they have fresh water (there), or (2) not having fresh water for two days is less traumatizing/hurting them than a double 3 hour trip back and forth at two magnetically different location. The “gang” also needs me, after having suffered 3 weeks of fresh water deprivation with big losses (another story and question) so I will definitely go. Please help me clean this dilemma up. Thank you and God bless
Marcella from PA aka MPA


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## Sonorgirl (Sep 7, 2011)

Hello and welcome, If there is absolutely no one to help care for the babies while your in PA then you have no choice but to take them with you. You can always stop at a rest area and allow them to drink and feed if needed. I have some concerns about that but it is far better than leaving them alone. Im also concerned that they are not getting proper nutrition. Unshelled sunflower seeds, while high in fat is just not enough for growing babies. You are going to need a high quality pigeon mix to supplement these youngsters real soon. I know its hard when your alone and uncertain as to what to do. Best thing to do is try and locate the nearest pigeon supply store. They will be able to help instruct you on what types of feed are available and what you will need. I wish you the best of luck. Please continue to post and let us know how you are doing.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

I really hope they are not feeding on sunflower seeds alone, not only that they won't get all the nutrients they need, but so much fat will cause liver damage.

Don't forget about grit also, in nature pigeons will find grit themselves, but when kept inside they have to be provided with grit, in a separate bowl so that they can choose when and how much to eat from it.

You might already know all of the above, I hope you won't mind me repeating that, just in case. 

About taking them with you or leaving them alone for the weekend, I don't know what's best. If they look really healthy and are eating enough by themselves, I'd say they would be fine either way. But at this age anything can happen... So yes, maybe it would be better to take them with you, so thay you can keep an eye on them all the time.


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

*MANY THANKS for answers*

Thank you very much. I am having a little problem with them growing extremely fast and the carton box where they fit during our last weekend travel be too small at the next weekend travel. They were not supposed to be "pets" --none of "my" free flying pigeons are-- as defending themselves against hawks I cannot teach them even if I tought them to eat and drink by themselves because the hawks always come by a dozen at once and mock me when I boo-hoo-hoo them great owl style (although they leave the premises after I insist on showing them they are unwelcome). Aaaaaaaah, what a GREAT strategical flyers were Kookoo Looba and his wife.....! So I will have to mix Kookla and Mookla with the gang later on (not now as they will be killed now) when they are stronger. As for the food issue, all my pigeons _rejected adamantly_ pigeon food all these years so I had to throw away those bags with "pigeon food" in numerous occasions. Also I was having some problems with my last grit after I changed my initial supplier because the new one contained the (what supplier described as "perfumed") extremely strongly oiled in anise sharp cut granite. When left unshelled, yes, the grit would be a must, I know, but at this time Kookla and his sister/almost mate Mookla REFUSE anything else but unshelled sunflower.BTW of the grit, I will come back to my initial supplier who gave me grit of crushed shelles that my pigeons liked very much.

Another amber allert is the situation in the "gang"'s loft/attic: when I left for the first (later 2 more similar situations happened) week leaving them a lot of seeds and water supply, I think that all this yummy yummy attracted some (field) mice (those cute creatures whose droppings look like sunflower seeds to crazy for probiotics feral/? pigeons). I found upon my return green watery droppings what NEVER happened before during all the 6 years since I started to take care of them (including when keeping 4 in my NY apartment being forced to leave overseas for the whole summer and my husband replacing me). I guess they got salmonella upstairs but unfortunately I will still be tied up to New York for another month and will have to stay in PA only every alternate week during this month. It is clear that absence of fresh water sickened them but I have no choice (I cannot take the whole gang to my NYC apartment).Of course also my absence deprived them of my daily cleaning the floor of the attic/loft at the early hours of the morning after the night creatures don't show up for 16 hours.

And finally I have a last question: how to give them fiber? And the pigeons in the attic, and the K-M babies search in an obvious and ostentatious manner DESPERATELY for FIBER, picking up anything that looks like straw.
Thanks again for the suggestion to take K-M babies with me for the week I will stay to clean and supervise the attic (although my husband will be back Sunday night and all I had a problem with was just the water stationary for two days.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

they pick straw up to make nests with and sometimes just like to carry it. pigeons are grain/seed eaters here is an example of what is in pigeon feed you buy at the feedstore.

Contains: Canada Peas, Red Milo, White *****, Maple Peas, Oat Groats, Austrian Peas, Whole Wheat, Safflower Seed, White Millet, Red Millet, Canary Seed, Vetch, Buckwheat, Rice.
add corn as needed in cold months.


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

I know what is in "pigeon food", as said, I have tried in _numerous_ occasions to convince my pigeons that "it's good for them" but at no avail. At this very minute I talk, I just come from pet store with something like this trying to convince the K-M babies with hope that being babies I could trick them. NO WAY. They pick the seeds from the freshly brought bag looking at me with trust but drop them right away, like the rest of their gang siblings turning upset their back to me. As I said, "my" pigeons are FREE even if they use me, including to be stubborn in their "bad" taste. For 6 years everything was fine. _Just because_ they lived outside, in the dovecote. After my return from Europe the dovecote was occupied by other "clan" so Kookoo Looba had to relocate in my attic which in the beginning was the culmination of his reign because I was downstairs changing their food and water twice a day. And again, their food never welcomed pet store "pigeon food". Meantime I read that egg shells can be very dangerous as source of calcium (which is what I gave them) because of salmonella possible contamination. I hardly wait to get back there to see how many are still living after the last week hit, especially the babies. I DEFINITELY will take K-M babies with me even if they don't like that 3 hr trip. Thank you again and God bless.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

First of all, allowing the babies to eat just sunflower seed will eventually make them very sick. That's like letting a child grew up eating just hotdogs and nothing else. It isn't healthy and you are going to cause them harm. Put the seed mixture they should be getting in front of them, and they will learn to eat the different seeds. If you care about them then you want to do what is best for them. They will try different things if you make them available. Sometimes it just takes time. You have started them off with what they shouldn't have much of to begin with. If they are hungry, they will eat. They don't know what is good for them.................you should. As someone mentioned earlier, too much fat will eventually give them liver disease.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Im not even sure what the heck is going on here.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Oh BTW, as far as the egg shells being a source of calcium, they should be microwaved for a few minutes, then broken up for the birds.

http://www.sialis.org/calcium.htm


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

*Thank You All*

Thank you all for your good advices. Yes, I will take them with me, yes I will boil the egshells (I do not have because I do not trust microwave), yes, I will try to convince them to eat those untasty seeds even if they make a whole mess of my computer desk throwing them over the bars in obvious mutiny. And, ah, yes, I will give them a couple of drops of apple cider vinegar in the water as preventative, I've noticed that it helps. Of course that in PA I will find all the other babies (not orphaned) most probably sick or dead as I kept on finding each weekend at my return there at least one baby dead each time. Only when I move completely there and supervise the water will the flock reintegrate again ... of what will remain from them by then. Even if only with Kookla and Mookla as starters of a new dinasty. I will let you know what I found in 2-3 days. Then, of course there it will always be the crossing above my house of those dozens of hawks crossing overlaping the chemtrails crossings that has become a daily routine over there. See you soon.
MPA


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

As long as there are mice that can get in to them, they will get sick.


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

*Excellent News!*

I found everything okay, clean and ... hungry! After Kookoo-Looba (the patriarch)'s death, there is no more fighting too. Kookla and Mookla sit (of course) again close to my computer and could hear some cooing from the attic what makes them look up from time to time, but that's okay, there is enough nice green to see through the window in front of the cage they sit ON TOP OF. Again, I still am not sure if there was the mice or the chemtrails... Cautiously, I will not rush with the baytril prevention, ACV in the water would be okay. I am very happy, minus the cold weather. Life goes on. God bless you all and your featherly babies.
PS: My husband loves the K-M babies and wants them as ... pets, what could he do? Not to let them outside at all anymore? Hmm
PS2: Dear Jay, thanks for the advice with doing something with the eggshells, what do you think, boiling them will not damage their calcium content?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mpa2012 said:


> I found everything okay, clean and ... hungry! After Kookoo-Looba (the patriarch)'s death, there is no more fighting too. Kookla and Mookla sit (of course) again close to my computer and could hear some cooing from the attic what makes them look up from time to time, but that's okay, there is enough nice green to see through the window in front of the cage they sit ON TOP OF. Again, I still am not sure if there was the mice or the chemtrails... Cautiously, I will not rush with the baytril prevention, ACV in the water would be okay. I am very happy, minus the cold weather. Life goes on. God bless you all and your featherly babies.
> PS: My husband loves the K-M babies and wants them as ... pets, what could he do? Not to let them outside at all anymore? Hmm
> PS2: Dear Jay, thanks for the advice with doing something with the eggshells, *what do you think, boiling them will not damage their calcium content?*


*
*


Lots of people boil them.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Destroying a stable chemical element like calcium would require a lot of energy, we are talking of nuclear reactions here, not simple boiling.


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

*Not too clear*

You mean it's no problem. (your metaphor confuses me) I simply have not too much time until my preferred grit (with crushed oyster shells) comes. All I have for the moment was some granit crystals with AWFUL anise smell that one supplier sent me "very proud that it is PERFUME" for the pigeons, when my little rascals do not apreciate it so I had to reorder from somewhere else. The older ones fly freely all over the place miles and miles around. Many survive the hawks attacks that cannot be avoided here, in the middle of the woods and probably pick up better goodies than eggshells. The young are very happy with the eggshells. I only now noticed that you are from that peaceful toward pigeons place (I saw the Bucharest pigeons last year), nice to meet you. So the short answer IS "yes", go ahead and grind those eggshells, MPA, right? Thanks.


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## jondove (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, you can't destroy calcium by simply boiling or microwaving egg shells, just like you can't turn iron into gold by simply boiling it 

And yes, I am from Bucharest. Nice to meet you too.


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## Doves1111 (Mar 5, 2005)

mpa2012 said:


> You mean it's no problem. (your metaphor confuses me) I simply have not too much time until my preferred grit (with crushed oyster shells) comes. All I have for the moment was some granit crystals with AWFUL anise smell that one supplier sent me "very proud that it is PERFUME" for the pigeons, when my little rascals do not apreciate it so I had to reorder from somewhere else.


The grit is not perfumed with Anise...it has Anise Oil added to it. Pigeons and doves love Anise Oil.
Mine do anyway...

http://www.kaytee.com/products/kaytee-baymor-highcalcium-pigeon-grit-red.php
*Kaytee Bay-Mor High-Calcium Pigeon Grit*
Ingredients:
Calcium Carbonate, Granite Grit, Oyster Shell, Salt, Charcoal, *Anise Oil*, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Oxide, Iron Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/anise-oil-51745.html

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/oils/7043-anise-oil-2-oz
Give your birds a treat. Watch them fly to the grit box when you’ve added a few drops to the grit. Teach the young birds to eat the grit by attracting them with Anise Oil. Smells like licorice.

Dawn


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Doves1111 said:


> The grit is not perfumed with Anise...it has Anise Oil added to it. Pigeons and doves love Anise Oil.
> Mine do anyway...
> 
> http://www.kaytee.com/products/kaytee-baymor-highcalcium-pigeon-grit-red.php
> ...




Yes they love it. That is why they have added it.


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## mpa2012 (Mar 27, 2012)

It is not me who used the word "perfume," Doves1111, but the supplier whom I had a strong argument with. Unfortunately, mine don't like it, and also don't like those artificially too perfectly even cut granite crystals, preferring the crushed in natural uneven shapes and naturally not smelling, oyster shells. I read the explanation of the manufacturer, to produce not smelly poops. I don't say it is not a good idea, just it is not good for my situation.

Thanks, Jondove, my problem was to boil the SHELLS themselves, not the eggs, as boiled eggs produce that white skin that gives me more work to peel it off after boiling. Of course not a big problem. Today I boiled the shells (washed previously from the whites) and the babies were very happy. In general both the babies and the rest of the gang eat the crushed eggshells with the speed of light, I don't have enough eggs to make them happy so I would use the oyster shells grit in parallel. Yes, Bucharest is full of pigeons that people can feed in the parks which in New York City, for example, is illegal although the authorities are blind when the netters capture --also illegally-- hundreds of pigeons in the streets and sell them to the PA target practice "hunters". E.g. the "non-involvement into wildlife" is actually sheer policy to destroy as many as possible wildlife creatures.


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