# Very Sick Feral Pigeon Needs Help



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Two days ago I took in another feral. He came in for food but could barley jump into the seed container. I can't tell what is wrong with him except that he is very weak, looks very sick and now his head keeps slowly sinking down as soon as he makes an attempt in lifting it up. Last night I gave him about 10 cc of water from the side of his beak. I am also giving him Baytril.

I've made appointment with rehabbers at 1PM today but I am afraid that he is not going to make it till then. Couple of months ago I had a similar situation and that pigeon died very quickly before I could do anything. Also several days ago I found one pigeon dead on my terrace, so I am afraid there might be a virus going on around. Right now I am also taking care of two feral pigeons with PPMV. However, except for star gazing symptoms, they eat on their own and are fine otherwise. BTW, two PPMV victims I was taking care of last year have fully recovered and became a mating couple.

Any advice or suggestions for this unfortunate fellow?


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I would suggest offering him supplemental heat.
Either place him on a towel lined heating pad, set on low or place him under a low wattage lamp.

When they become ill or injured they lose their body temperature rapidly. More times than not, supplemental heat makes all the difference in the world.

If you are offering plain water, I would also suggest replacing that with rehydrating solution (to a cup of room temperature water add a *pinch* each of salt and sugar). This will help give him the electrolyte boost he needs.

Please let us know how the visit with the rehabber goes. 
Best of luck to you both.


----------



## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm going to move your thread to the sick and injured forum.


----------



## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Ante...the bird is likely suffering from more than just 1 thing. I suspect canker, coccida and worms and maybe more. It would be a good idea for you to have medicines on hand to treat all those things as most ferals are predisposed carriers.
As Cindy said...keeping the bird warm and hydrated is critical. Good luck to you and the bird. I really hope the bird makes it.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

The fact that I am writing this is a good sign. This means that he is still alive. When they die on me and some have, I tend to blame myself and have difficulty to speak for a while.

Anyway, We made it to Animal General here in NYC and he got three shots: vitamin B, iron and fluids. It is not clear what is wrong with him, although now I am starting to think that it must PMV. I was told to tube feed him very thin mixture of Kayatee formula and keep him warm. I pulled out a heating lamp but it's been around 79 degrees in here so I am concerned about too much heat. I thought I was becoming an expert on tube feeding but with him at the beginning it was a struggle which left him barely alive so I stopped and have fed him organic dry puppy chew soaked in water for few days. Last night I tried tube feeding again and it worked. 

His condition has gotten worse but I think it's stabilized. At the begging he was able to move a little and lift his head and had tried eating with some success but now he can't move without losing balance circling and falling; his head is hanging on the ground all the time and twisted to the side. I have rehabbed several pigeons with PMV and I think I can recognize the symptoms although haven't seen it this bad yet. It is definitely the beginning of it. Two other pigeons with clear PMV symptoms, star gazing, etc., are eating on their own. I keep them in my bathroom separate from the rest. I wish I could find somewhere some facts about how and how long is it that the PMV virus is transmitted from the sick individuals to healthy ones?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ante,



> I wish I could find somewhere some facts about how and how long is it that the PMV virus is transmitted from the sick individuals to healthy ones?


Pigeons with PMV continue to shed the virus and infect other pigeons for 6 weeks from the time the symptoms start to show. I usually keep them isolated from other pigeons for at least 8 weeks, allowing them plenty of baths, as the virus survives in the feathers that have been soiled by fecal dust etc for a lot longer.

The source of this information is Vindevogel and Duchatel (1986), but you will find it confirmed in other sources such as the BSAVA (British Small Animal Veterinary Association) Manual of Raptors, Pigeons and Passerine Birds which states of Pigeon PMV: _ *"Unlike certain other diseases, infected birds do not become lifelong carriers but stop excreting the virus within 6-8 weeks of initial infection"[/*I] (I am being very specific here because I know Rita is erroneously convinced that they carry PMV for life).

Cynthia_


----------



## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

just another thought i would like to add, could it be possible someone is putting out avitrol?
it's make me think it could be because you have found a dead one in the area.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you Cynthia!

I guess it would be safe to assume that once they had it and have survived and are free of symptoms that they are immune from it? I have three of them who come here daily sleep and nest here who have fully recovered from it last year. It did take a very long time for symptoms to disappear. With one of them I think it took almost a year.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

I think tube feeding a bird with severe PMV symptoms can be risky because if they are spending a lot of time in an upside-down position, they might aspirate.

One alternative would be to feed the Puppy Chow you mentioned or else peas and corn from a pigeon mix or some other type of pelleted diet (like Harrison's).

Jennifer


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Ante,
Once pigeon goes through PMV it gains immunity for life. I had several cases like yours. Difficulties standing, circling, loosing balance, head hanging to the floor while sleeping even between legs. I came across information about calcium and vitamin supplements administration during PMV. Tried it and it works. You can give bird vitamins and calcium in the drinking water. Sometime I use tube and syringe to put straight in the crop when bird is unwell and stops drinking. 10 ml dose once a day beside mixed formula and fluids in it.
My latest discovery is Medimmune tablets. They boost immunity and speed up recovery. And yes 6~8 weeks is for PMV bird to recover and stop shedding viruses.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Hi Jennifer,
When you tube feed PMV bird, there is no risk of aspiration unless you overfill the crop and choke bird. During PMV water consumption of sick birds increases. They drink water continuously and they loose a lot of fluids through feaces. Either way through tube feeding or giving bird water in drinkers you need to keep bird hydrated.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Plamenh,

When I said they risk aspiration, I don't mean during feeding; I mean by the fact that some of them turn upside down after feeding. If the crop is filled with fluid (as it would be if you were tube feeding), the fluid can back up through the esophagus and into the trachea, just as can happen if you turn a bird with a fluid-filled crop upside down. 

My preference would be to feed dry foods and hydrate via SQ fluids for PMV birds in bad shape.

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

One more quick question. This morning at around 5 AM I found a squeaker. He can't fly yet and was standing in the open on a concrete fence on a corner of a very busy street so I had no choice but to take him home. How he got there beats me since there is nothing around there from where he could have fallen down.

I have two other squeakers here in the nest. They are being taken care of by their parents. I've been trying to replace all the eggs but something happened and two hatched. These two youngsters maybe a bit older than the one I just found but not much older. 

So my question is. Do you think if I put this new guy with the other two will their father a mother also feed him? 

Thank you!


----------



## altgirl35 (Sep 5, 2008)

i can't answer the will they feed them, but i worry that the baby may give your guys something, i wouldn't risk exposing my birds to a wild bird


----------



## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

he may feed him or may just try to kill him, but as altgirl said risk if disease and lice and things from a wild bird is too great. treat him seperate and you be his adopted parent and he should be fine if he is healthy.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks for the replies.

He seems to be healthy and I found him half a block from where I live and this is where all the rest of wild pigeons who come to visit me live so they are all exposed to the same bugs and parasites — more or less and freedom also. I don't believe in cages and keeping nonhumans in captivity unless they're disabled. 

But anyway, I suppose I can try and introduce him to this family nest — high above my bad on a shelf — and see what happens since the last couple of feral orphans I had to hand feed seem to be missing something which I see in wild birds who are raised by pigeons.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry, I think you're right this isn't going to work. He was expelled immediately. Oh well, If I were a pigeon and had a beak there would be no problem but I'll try my best again. 

Also, I was just told that the sick one, with his head hanging down, could have meningitis. So I was told to try Baytril again. What do you people think?


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

What are his other symptoms (sick bird) and what have you treated for already?

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, as I said, we visited rehabbers five days ago. They couldn't tell with any certainty what is going on. They gave him vitamin B, iron and fluid shots. Before I took him in, I gave him couple of doses of liquid 2.27% Baytril solution for dogs but rehabber had told me to stop with Baytril. However, at that time his head was not always hanging down the way it is now.

Let's see... his other symptoms: He has practically no body mass. His feathers are ruffled. He is very uncoordinated — can barley walk, let alone fly. His head does seem to tilt to one side. Most of the time he is standing ruffled with his head down on the ground, usually but not always, turned on the side (his head). He is standing though most of the time. 

I'm worried about other pigeons that come here, sleep and nest here. I keep him in a plastic cat cage in my kitchen and keep washing my hands but it's hard to think of everything and I don't know how easily these deceases transmit.

Sorry, I am a little overextending myself right now and getting exhausted.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Oh, one thing I forgot. When he came in he was practically full of pigeon flies and lice. I used spray only once and they seem to be all gone.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante, did they do a Gram stain? That would at least tell you if there's a GI bacterial infection. 

I guess I would suspect PMV, lead poisoning, or bacterial infection/meningitis (although I don't know how common meningitis is in pigeons). I have a pigeon with head tilt right now who had swallowed metal. She's on a chelation agent now.

I don't think it would hurt to do a round of Baytril (15 mg/kg BID x 7-10 d), although I've seen people say here that antibiotics can worsen PMV symptoms. If you have liquid B-complex, that wouldn't hurt either. 

Is he eating/drinking, or are you feeding him? If he is uncoordinated, I would take away his water dish but make sure he is well hydrated.

If you are keeping him separate and practicing good hygiene, I wouldn't worry too much beyond that.

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

What are his poops like? 

Is his neck flaccid or can he lift it up?


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks Cynthia.

1. His poops look normal as far as I can tell. At first, while I was hand feeding him soaked puppy chew, they were firm. Now they are a bit on watery side but not too much. But I think this might be because I'm feeding him now thin formula mixture.

2. He can lift and move his neck but usually with a tremor and uncoordinated. 

I don't know why rihabber thinks this might be meningitis. I think it may be because he is standing while his head is dropped down. With PMV they usually lay down. I don't know. I have no idea what symptoms for meningitis are and I can't find any meaningful information about it. As I sad, he is turning his head to the side but not all the way up — star gazing — as I've seen other of my PMVs do. But then I don't know what the begining of PMV is like. 

So, I am not sure what to do. I hate to put him on antibiotic if he does not need it, on the other hand, if he has meningitis, would he die without Baytril?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If it is PMV and you use antibiotics, it may worsen his condition and his fits.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ante,

Some of our PMV survivors sleep standing up with their heads dropped between their legs. 

This is what Vindevogel and Duchatel had to say about administering antibiotics to pigeons with PMV:

*We should be on our guard against pigeon-fanciers who empirically stuff their pigeons with drugs. Far from curing them, they intensify the lesions of the gastro-intestinal tract. the liver and the kidneys and aggravate the course of the disease." *

I found a mention of meningitis in birds here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NgfQJJ8DPPgC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=birds+bacterial+encephalitis&source=bl&ots=MvRKem0_kf&sig=l-BBpyDbuIZVZhBCYERMbhBcCvQ&hl=en&ei=mdGmSrOiN5vajQeG1OmlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=birds%20bacterial%20encephalitis&f=false

If the right page doesn't show it is 168.


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

This might help..or not!

*Causes of tremor & star-gazing :*
- Viral / bacterial or yeast infection 
- Chemical imbalance.
- Vitamin and/or mineral (nutritional) deficiency; Vitamin D deficiency (lack of natural sunlight exposure). Too much calcium can result in a ‘drunken bird' look.
- Genetic predisposition 
- Inner-ear problem

I had a pigeon with PMV.. the 1st sign was star-gazing nothing else.. no green droppings, no twisted neck nothing.. just star-gazing and it lasted for months.. the symptom gone after that and i thought it was over.. and when i've vaccinated it, it died withing 10 days (after showing the usual PMV signs.)​


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

I once asked one of our avian vets what the differential dx would include for a pigeon exhibiting PMV symptoms. She said besides PMV, possibilities would be meningitis or heavy metal toxicity. 

There is a titer test for PMV, but it's not cheap. You'd have to do a paired titer (one and then a month later a second one to see if the antibody levels increase). You could also do a blood lead level, but that's also not cheap. Sometimes x-rays will show metal in the GI tract, but not always. The other way to do it is to just administer a chelation agent if lead poisoning is suspected. 

Jennifer


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Lead poisoning will reflect on droppings. As for metal in body, I use metal detector with the loop.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Plamenh,

In what way does lead poisoning manifest in the droppings? I ask because I have a probable lead poisoned bird here (waiting for blood test confirmation, but so far she's responding to the Succimer), but there isn't anything remarkable about her droppings.

Also, our vet said that only 50% of lead-poisoned birds will have metal show up on x-ray.

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

If a pigeon drank from lead guttering I suppose it could become poisoned but nothing would show up in the X-ray?

I was going to provide palliative care for a pigeon with lead poisoning (lead shot in its gizzard) and did what I could to research the symptoms. This explains the effect on lead poisoning on digestion and therefore poops:

_*If not treated promptly lead poisoning will kill...Lead poisoning causes anorexia which leads to emaciation, anaemia, muscle weakness, bright green droppings and a general malaise. The gizzard, a muscle ceases to function and even if the bird can eat, its foodstuffs are not processed and congeal in the proventriculus and the oesophagus.*_

That pigeon survived, he was treated with injections of sodium calciumedetate and oral administration of peanut butter. I found a post in which Maggie explains the peanut butter (it is amazing how much information out Guardian Angel has left us!):



> Our vet has a vet assistant who worked for a number of years at the NC State School of Veterinary Medicine. She said that while she was there they did use peanut butter in the formula with good results for treatment of lead poisoning. *Apparently the peanut butter helps bind the lead. She told us to use 1/2 tsp per formula feeding*.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Yesterday I gave him two doses of 0.15 cc of 2.27% of Baytril solution. Last night after feeding him 12 cc of formula mixture and giving him the second dose of Baytril he threw up most of the liquid formula. This morning I gave him couple of cc of water and he continued to throw up. Also, I noticed that the roof of his mouth and his tongue were grayish white. Could this be due to his vomiting? I don't know.

But the strange thing is that in the midst of all of this, he was trying to grab some seeds, albeit in vain. Will to live is still there!! 

I've watched him closely for several hours. His PMV symptoms are becoming more pronounced now. His is starting to twist his neck upwards falling over and going around with his neck and head twisting upwards. This and considering that recently I've found two other pigeons from the same flock who are showing very typical PMV symptoms, I think it is safe to say that he is most likely one more victim of PMV. Unfortunately, I think his case is very severe and is at the beginning stage so he's going to need a lot of care if he is going to make it. 

I am going to stop with Baytril and stop feeding him liquid formula. After I saw him trying to pick on some seeds by himself, I hand fed him several corn, chickpea seeds and several soaked puppy chew peaces. After that, he still threw up some liquid but none of the solid food.

I am worried about this whitish film inside of his mouth. I don't know what that is all about? Any ideas?


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Cynthia,

If the bird drank contaminated water, it makes sense nothing would show up on an x-ray. But what if he/she ate smaller pieces of metal? Would they not eventually pass through after the damage is done?

A rehabber friend of mine has had many pigeons with lead poisoning. It just makes me wonder (again) how many birds who have apparent PMV symptoms are actually lead poisoned! Maybe it makes sense to treat with EDTA/DMSA/peanut butter (very interesting about that!) in those cases just in case?

The one pigeon I have who we suspect has lead poisoning has dark green droppings. She could not stand at all initially (used her wings to drag herself around), but after 2-3 days of DMSA looks more normal. She has more control of her legs and can get to her food and water dishes with no problem.

Jennifer


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

ante bozanich said:


> I am worried about this whitish film inside of his mouth. I don't know what that is all about? Any ideas?


Candida? Trich? Pox? Hypovitaminosis A?

I've had birds with trich who vomited heavily. If you have Spartrix, you can treat for trich in case this is what it is (carnidazole generally has a wide safety margin and is well tolerated). If you have Nystatin, it wouldn't hurt to give that either. Nystatin works on contact, so to get at the plaque in the mouth, you'd have to paint it on with a Q-tip or paintbrush.

Jennifer


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

When you administer Baytril it is usually recomended dosing Nustatin in parallel. The whitish coating it may be Candida overgrowth.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> It just makes me wonder (again) how many birds who have apparent PMV symptoms are actually lead poisoned!


I suppose it depends on where you live and whether the water they drink is likely to be contaminated by lead. Maggie dealt with many lead poisoning cases (but despite treatment the majority died). 

Although there might be similarities in some of the symptoms of PMV and lead poisoning, I suspect that in lead poisoning the overall picture would be different, at least to someone that had experience of PMV. Maggie dealt with both and as far as I remember could distinguish between the two.

Though it may sound strange, our PMV rescues (30+) - although showing typical PMV digestive and neurological symptoms when found and occasionally zonking out and leaving themselves vulnerable - have been "otherwise healthy", ready to take on anyone despite their disabilities, hungry and very thirsty. There was only one "suspected PMV" rescue who arrived at the same time as 3 with PMV, all from her flock, that showed additional symptoms that were inconsistent with PMV and led me to believe that all her symptoms were poisoning or that she was suffering from poisoning as well as PMV. She survived, but it was a long struggle.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Cynthia,

I think if a bird showed signs like torticollis, opisthotonos, polyuria, uncoordinated (or lack of) flight, I would think PMV was the most likely dx. I've had a couple of cases that seemed like PMV but were very mild. One of those birds seemed very healthy otherwise but went downhill very suddenly: stopped eating and drinking and could not stand at all. I did not manage to pull her through, and I still feel very sad about her when I think about how well she had been doing at the outset. I now wonder if she had PMV at all. 

One of the birds I'm rehabbing right now we thought had PMV (she was holding her head askew and turning it upside down when held) until we took an x-ray (she had a fractured femur) and saw a metal spring in her crop! She seems to be responding to the DMSA as well (she's been holding her head slightly more upright than initially).

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Has the spring been removed from her crop? Can you tell me more about DMSA?

Jumbo had "no hope of survival" because the lead shot couldn't be removed from his gizzard,the vet would have euthanased him but Les, his rescuer, refused to allow that so the plan was for him to come here and for me to inject him daily with sodium calciumedetate but he would eventually die. He was another of Les' miracles:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=34068&referrerid=560


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes, the vet milked the spring (which was actually within a plastic cap) out of her crop. 

On DMSA: http://merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/211800.htm and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10951987


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thank you, Jennifer. I have bookmarked both of those.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I understand what you people are saying and I realize that I am only guessing. He is still alive and I don't want to lose any time from doing the right thing because when he's dead I won't be able to do anything.

Couple more things. I've just noticed that his poop is solid but it is distinctively green and white. He also has a smell that reminds me of canker but looking inside his throat the white blotches do not look anything like canker but seem like stringy milky discoloration of tissue which is sort of symmetrical and going down his throat. I did see him trying to drink and he hasn't been vomiting since this morning (I stopped tube feeding him the formula last night).

I am trying to think quickly what would be the best thing to do here. I can take him again to rehabbers (Animal General) and see if they can do some more tests on him or I can make an appointment with an avian vet here in my neighborhood? What do you think? What should I do? I want this person to get well and live.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

There are so many things it could be, including herpesvirus and circovirus. 

I have never seen either of these conditions, but Dr Colin Walker says that Herpesvirus can affect the _"nerves of the neck, wings and legs, leading to lameness and wobbly S shaped necks" _and also can cause mucus production in the throat _"and the appearance of small pale spots in the tonsillar area of the soft palate"_ . I read somewhere that one of those two also leaves a distinctive smell in the mouth, but I can't remember which!. He says typically an affected bird will be fluffed up, reluctant to move, underweight with gree diarrhea. Herpesvirus can be treated with acyclovir. Probiotics can help recovery.

If you can get tests done, then that would be the best course of action IMO. Even just a swab examined under a microscope would determine whether he has canker or whether the blotches are symptomatic of something else. Dr Walker says that some results of throat swabs can be suggestive of Herpesvirus ie throat mucus may contain a lot of bacteria and white blood cells.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante, if you have an avian vet you trust, it will not hurt to have this bird seen (except in the wallet). I have two who I can recommend, but they are both away until next week.

Otherwise, I don't think it would hurt to give Spartrix in case of canker if you have any on hand.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! I left the message for rehabbers asking them if they can do more test or if not if they can recommend a good avian vet. I was thinking about place here in East Village called St. Marks Veterinary Hospital. I visited them couple of times in emergency but I don't know much about them otherwise.

I saw him again dipping his beak in water several times and no more vomiting.

On the bright side, new squeaking baby is gorgeous (black with couple of white wing feathers and white patches on his head and chest) full of energy and always hungry.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

They are going to recommend A&E next door. I don't know the vets there or how they are with pigeons, but I can tell you they are $$$$$. 

The two vets I work with are Drs. Pilny and Pesek. Pilny works out of Veterinary Internal Medicine and Allergy Specialists on the UES Thursdays and Saturdays (but won't be back until next week). Pesek works in East Islip Vet Group Thursdays and Westbury Animal Hospital on Fridays (both LI), but she also won't be back until next week.

One rehabber I've spoken with had negative feedback on St. Mark's.

Jennifer


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

There is a possibility that bird has more than one disease going.
Vomiting can be caused by Candida (sour crop) and that can be caused by use of antibiotics. Stagnated food in the crop smells bad. Canker on other side does not always show as growth in the throat.
*Pharyngeal Form*
Cheesy yellow deposits are seen on the membranes of the pharynx at the back of the mouth. The deposits can affect food intake and also breathing. Severely affected birds are depressed, food intake is reduced and they become emaciated. Affected birds may have diarrhea. Water intake may increase. In advanced stages a stringy mucous or putrid odor can be detected in the mouth. Throat Canker which forms a soft cheesy growth may be easily removed with a cotton bud dipped in aqueous iodine and glycerine, then treated with a standard medications.
*Navel Form*
This form occurs in young birds that are affected in the nest box from affected crop milk dripping onto the nest box floor. A typical cheesy yellow deposit is present under the skin at the navel and it may spread from here to the internal organs.
*Internal Form*
The internally affected organs include liver, crop and lung in which the cheesy yellow deposits may be found. The clinical signs of the internal form vary depending upon the organ involved but usually diarrhea and emaciation are a feature of this condition.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

This morning things turned much worse. Last night I felt there was some hope. He was standing with his head up and dipped his beak several times in the water container. Now he can't stand up his feet seem paralyzed. He is just laying there with his neck and head twisted, his beak turned upwards and his eyes closed. When I lift his head it falls right down limp. His head his neck and the rest of his body is gone. What I first saw yesterday as a white film layer coating his mouth is now turning in to white growth on the roof of his mouth, sides, around his tongue going down his throat.

I didn't see any other choice so I made an appointment at St. Marks Animal Hospital at 9 o'clock this morning. They didn't tell me anything I already didn't know and didn't do any tests. The only thing we got out of $220 is one shot of vitamins and one fluid shot and several doses of Baytril to take home. Right now I don't know if there is anything else I can do. I have given him the first Spartrix pill early this morning and put him on Baytril again. 

I think it's going to be a miracle if he lives and I am not very happy about this. I have this lump in my throat telling me it's going to be that time to mourn again. Right now he seems to be in comma so at least I don't think he is suffering.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Ante, please try to give him activated charcoal pill. It is called also Carbo Vegitabilis you may still be able to save him. It will bond all poison caused by illness, bacteria etc. You have nothing to loose. Molim te probaj, ako ovo na pomogne nista nece.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear it, Ante. I'm sorry my vet is out of town; you would have certainly gotten more out of your $220 with him. 

I would try to keep him hydrated and make sure the white stuff isn't covering his glottis (in which case I would swab it out gently with a wet Q-tip). Do you know how to do SQ fluids? I also don't think the Spartrix and Baytril are bad ideas.

I've used homeopathic carbo veg (known as the "corpse reviver") before with good results. Places like Vitamin Shoppe or a health food store should have Boiron brand. You can get 30c and dissolve a couple of pellets in a small amount of spring or distilled water, then give a few drops with a dropper from outside the beak.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you (Hvala! ). I guess I can find it in a health food or a vitamin shop?


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Jenfer,

There is a Vitamin Shoppe half a block from where I am, but why shouldn't I give him the whole capsule or tablet as Plamenh is suggesting since most of liquid I put down his throat comes out. 

I don't know anything about SQ fluids. I've been giving him puppy chew pallets fully soaked in Pedialyte. Rehabber has told me that this should be enough for hydration. Also, when I put his beak in water he seems to take some in. Strange it is that even though his entire body is paralyzed, when I put these soaked pallets and some large grain inside of his beak, he still swallows them.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

Homeopathic medicines work best when you do not touch them and when they are administered to animals dissolved in water. This is the protocol I use and also the one the homeopathic vets I've worked with and other rehabbers use. You only need a few drops of the liquid remedy for it to work, and he doesn't have to digest it; it just has to come into contact with the mucus membranes.

Is he digesting food well at this point? Some of the PMV birds I've had have become dehydrated when they can't drink on their own. The reason I suggested SQ is because it's a safer way to maintain hydration than tubing fluids in cases like these.

How long have you had him, again? Do you think he could have had some kind of spinal trauma?

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

He came in about 10 days ago. He could still fly then but was very thin and all in all in a very bad shape. But his head dropping to the floor, twisting and paralysis got worse and worse. Anyway, I think I've said already most of this.

Since I stopped feeding him Kaytee Exact formula, he hasn't been throwing any of this other food I've been giving him. It is going through. Since this morning his poop has been brown with a bit of white and is getting a bit more liquid. Normal, as far as I can tell, which makes me wonder because one of the PMV symptoms is diarrhea. 

I don't know. This morning vet said that he definitely has a serious neurological problem which could be caused by many different things. Bluish white stuff in his mouth, she said is secondary fungal infection. To me it does not look like the canker symptoms I've seen but she also said that these fungal ailments show up in many different ways. 

Well, he's still breathing so I'm on my way out to look for Carbo Vegitabilis.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Which vet did you see at St. Mark's? 

Did they tell you to treat the fungal infection with Nystatin?

The fact that he's digesting relatively well is a good sign. Hope things somehow improve.

Jennifer


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

If the urine started to become more liquid (watery) it means there's a problem with the kidneys. Here's a youtube video showing Symptoms of PMV including the difference between normal diarrhea and diarrhea caused by PMV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz-F1WxDGNs​


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Good news! Something seems to be working. Yesterday he was able to stand up on his feet. Today he can lift his head and has walked couple of steps. 

So, several things, but first I want to thank everyone for helping.

It's hard to know what's happening here. He got the fluids and vitamins shot from the vet and I've been giving him Spartrix and Baytril for couple of days now. I am worried about giving him Baytril, but if this is not PMV but a bacterial infection than, as bad as these chemicals are for him, it could save his life.

I have purchased carbo vegetabilis by Boiron but I am a bit confused because I found out that they also make activated charcoal pills for humans which are not homeopathic. So I've been holding on this since I don't know which one would be better to use and he is doing much better.

He did throw out little bit of the food couple of times again but I think it may be because I may be over feeding him and giving him too much Pedialyte. 

I think this stuff in his moth could be canker because after swiping it a bit with a Q-tip there was a stain of blood there. But I don't know if candida would be the same. It seems to be effecting his beak also.

I think that it's important to give him vitamin supplements. I have some Avimin and Avitron at home but both are quite old.

Jenfer,

The doctor that we saw at St. Marks Animal Hospital was young Asian woman Charisse Luk. I specifically asked her about Nystatin in case he has candida but she said that Spartrix is good for any fungal infection. However she gave me Baytril so shouldn't then I be giving him Nystatin also?

Alhowiriny,

I guess I didn't make myself clear. He never had diarrhea. I said that his stool was normal. If anything I was worried that it was too dry.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so glad that he is recovering, his condition sounded so hopeless I hardly dared visit this thread.

I think that both the homeopathic remedy Carbo Veg and the Activated Charcoal for humans are very useful remedies to keep at home. It is Activated Charcoal that binds poisons to stop them being absorbed by the body as they pass through the digestive system, but the homeopathic remedy works differently and, as Jennifer mentioned, is very effective for reviving animals that have collapsed and appear to be at the point of death, which is why it is called "the corpse reviver".


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm glad he's better. Candida does not have blood pattern, this is most likely canker.
Spartrix will hopefully take care of it. Take it slow for recovery now. He's still in critical condition.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

I would finish the courses of Spartrix and Baytril. Weird about Dr. Luk saying Spartrix was antifungal because as far as I know it's an antitrichomonal drug, not an antifungal. If you have Nystatin, it would not hurt to give it. Also, dry stool is a symptom of dehydration, in which case it would be good to help him drink more, or else tube in some fluids (as long as he's not standing upside down).

The homeopathic carbo veg and activated charcoal are good to have on hand, as Cynthia said, but I wouldn't use them right now if you are already seeing improvement.

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah, that's what she said and they didn't have any (Nystatin). I called rehhabers this morning, left the message, but I haven't heard from them and since they're closed tomorrow, it seems that I'm going to have to wait till Monday.

I don't want to build hopes too much, but I do think that things look much better. Thursday morning, I couldn't get his eyes open. He was just laying on his side motionless and limp. The only sign of life I could see in him was that he was still breathing. Now two days later... He is still having hard time keeping his head up and his eyes open all the time but he is standing and when I make a noise he opens his eyes and lifts his head. About an hour ago, I actually saw him stretching his wings as if he was trying to fly off and then he reached underneath his wing to scratch himself and shook his tail. Isn't that something? Also, I offered him water and he really dug his beak in there and went for it and now his poops looks more watery.

I think taking him to the vet maybe wasn't a bad idea after all.


----------



## alhowiriny (Jan 10, 2009)

My bad; i've read this & thought it was diarrhea..



ante bozanich said:


> Since this morning his poop has been brown with a bit of white and is getting a bit more liquid.


----------



## FloridaLuv (Dec 19, 2008)

I have to admit, I too have been a thread stalker here.... I was fearing the worst and sending my silent prayers. Jenfer was one of many people who helped me with my feral when I needed someone to help. Her advice is comforting and knowledgeable..... and I thank her for that. If it weern't for her and a few others, I'd have lost my mind and the hope I had in my heart.

I really just want to say I'm praying for this little one and for you. Reading this just floods me of memories with a few of ours..... it really is amazing the will power they can have when they know that you are giving your All... Bless you for that... I will look forward to hearing more great news


----------



## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi ante bozanich,

I just wanted to offer you some support; I know how stressful it is to feel such a huge of weight of responsibility on your shoulders. I really hope that this little one makes it 

Sending you love and encouragement!


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

If he has energy to stretch and shake tail, this is good sign.
Sorry, I did not understand course of Spartrix what did they told you about use of Spartrix? It is usually 1 tablet a day for three days maximum.
Baytril goes for 10 days max and I will supplement with B complex vitamins.
Anti-fungals are Nustaitn, Amphotericin B, Diflucan, Sporanox, Nizoral, Lamisil.
If you cannot find medication, you can use: Iodine, Baking Soda, Cinamon, Garlic, Coloidal Silver, Apple Cider Vinegar, Oregano oil.
Once you finish with Baytril, administering of probiotics is essential.

P.S. Ako ti je potrebna naknadna informacija kako da kosistis prirodna sredstva, javi mi.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks again everyone. Sorry I was trying to catch up with the rest of all of my feathery friends who are dependent on me.

Things looked good for couple of days. Gray (his name) was standing on his feet, walking a little, holding his neck up, was trying to fly and eat and was drinking on his own but since last night all of the sudden his neurological symptoms got worse and now he can't stand up again at all. His condition seems different now. He is not totally limp, the way he was before I took him to the wet. Now, when I lift him up, he will struggle to stand up but falls on one side with his neck and head twisted upwards and than just stays like that with his eyes closed.

Plamenh, what I was saying is that doctor have told me that Spartrix will take care of candida and canker. I asked her about Nystatin and she said that he does not need it. I left the message for rehabbers so I could get some Nystatin but I haven't heard from them so I don't know what is going on. But, most of the white stuff is gone from his mouth. I can only see a small dot on the roof of his mouth. He does have a little hard thickening on the side of his beak which could be pox. By the way, I understand Serbo-Croatian but can't speak or write it very well because I hardly ever practice it.

I was told to keep him on Spartrix for 5 days. I gave him 3 pills, paused for a day, gave him one more pill today and I have one pill left for tomorrow that is if he is still alive. Baytril... the vet told me to give him 0.25 ml once a day for 7 days. I don't know what kind of B vitamins to give him. Are you talking about the pills for humans that I can buy in a vitamin store? Also, I don't know anything about probiotics.

My main concern now is that maybe I am not feeding him right. I've been mostly feeding him puppy chow soaked in water about three to four times per day at about 15 to 20 pieces at the time. It is the easiest thing to put down his throat but I don't think that it is the best for him. I would also like to know more about vitamins because I think that it was the vitamin shot that the vet gave him what revived him from near death. I am waiting for a reply from the vet because I am going to ask her if she think that I should give him another fluids and vitamins shot.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Spartrix is carnidazole – anti canker drug. Has nothing to do with candida. Dosage is once off (one pill only) in case of Chlamidya you can treat for three days. 5 days is pointless. Anyway, I’m glad that white coating is gone.
B complex vitamins are usually available in pet store as parrot tonic. Any multivitamin without calcium will do. Probiotics / gut bacteria are actually good bacteria living in bird’s intestines. When you use antibiotic, you kill all stomach flora in treated bird along with bad bacteria. To speed up recovery and boost immune system, you need to re-introduce gut bacteria in GI tract. This what probiotic is for. Again you can get it from the pet shop. Once you finish with Baytril, you can give him liquid calcium.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, last night I gave him some old Liquid Mineral Supplement which has calcium in it. I hope then that mixing calcium with Baytril didn't make things turn much worse?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Ante,

Baytril is most effective given once a day, the dose for pigeons (which is higher than for dogs and cats) is 10-20 mg kg/bw.

Calcium, whether given orally or in grit, can prevent the absorption of Baytril.

What I do is give the daily dose of Baytril and then give the daily dose of calcium 12 hours later.

Cynthia


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks, I have been giving him 0.25 ml of Baytril once a day. This is what the vet told me, but I think Jenfer is right about that place. Receptionist told me yesterday that the doctor was going to return my call within an hour but she never did. Actually, she did not give me enough Baytril for seven days. It looks like I only have enough for 6 days. 

Anyway, he propped himself up this morning shook himself nicely and as he did that he fell down again on his side twisting his head upwards. But it was nice to see him standing with his head up if only for a few seconds. I fed him about 20 chickpeas and whole popcorn seeds yesterday but this morning he threw them all out. The puppy chow seems to be going through though.

I wonder... has anyone seen this badly paralyzed pigeon that has recovered?


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

He doesn't seem to be paralyzed, it has nervous problems and with adequate support it will pass. I have a hen that was lying on her back, not moving at all. How many times during the treatment my heart skipped a beat thinking that she’s dead. Then she would open one eye and I would take a deep breath. Presently she is fine, flying around and laying eggs like mad.
Tell me Ante, how are his poops? Is there any mucus in the throat, difficulty breathing? Smelly faeces or throat?
*Reason I’m asking is following:*
*Step 1*
Make sure your animal does not have a history of allergic reactions to this medication. If they are known to have some drug sensitivity, you will want to check with your veterinarian for the best treatment option.
*Step 2*
Avoid giving this medication to newborn animals all the way up to approximately thirty weeks. Young animals can develop joint damage and problems if given this medication too early. 
If your animal is already taking medication (some stomach medication or other), ask your veterinarian if they are safe to take with Baytril. Not all will be.
*Step 3*
Be prepared for a change in stool. Many times, taking this medication can make your animal have an upset stomach or diarrhea.
*Step 4*
Measure the correct dose to give to your animal. Exceeding the veterinary recommended dose can also cause irreversible side effects. Giving an animal too much Baytril can cause blindness, particularly in cats. Cats are to take Baytril orally and are typically given a small dose (approximately five milligrams a day).
*Step 5*
Pay close attention to your animal's behavior. Medications such as Baytril can make them have mood changes and seizures are also a possibility.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4579439_side-effects-baytril.html

I may be crucified by members of the forum for following words, but I don’t like using Baytril. I prefer safer antibiotics as Amoxicilin, Doxycyclin, Ampicilin. My experience with Baytril is bad.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I wonder... has anyone seen this badly paralyzed pigeon that has recovered?


I have not had one that matches the symptoms yours has, but the fact that he is able to stand, if only for a few seconds is very encouraging.

If you can get your hands on some Poly Aid that might help build him up. 

Some things seem easier to digest than others, I have noticed that pigeons that vomit up Kaytee can keep Ready Brek made up with water (a form of breakfast porridge) down.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

His poops continue to look fine, not much different then the poops from the new baby bird. Both of them I have been hand feeding the same puppy chow (of course from a different dish). He can push them out away few inches so he keeps himself clean and I remove them right away. They are about the same color as the chow with some white in it. 

His throat has cleared up. It looks nice pink now. All of the white stuff is gone except on the roof of his mouth there are two small streaks still there but I think that might be just the way it's supposed to be. I am not sure. 

So you think that four spartrix pill is more than enough? I was only following the instructions by rehabbers who gave me the pills and they said five pills, one per day. 

As far as Baytril is concerned... I've already given him five doses and I think I only have enough for one more 0.25 ml dose and that's it.

I am going out now to look for all this stuff, vitamins, calcium and probiotics. I do hate to leave him alone. I don't know where to look for Poly Aid. I never heard about it. What is it? This puppy chow formula, soaked in unflavored Padialyte seem to be working maybe. It's called Organix made with all organic ingredients and added vitamins and minerals but it is high on protein — 28% and 15% fat. I used to use it to feed starlings but have found 50% protein cat chow. Starlings need very high protein intake.

Hey, I just offered him some water while his head got straight for a second and he dug into it all the way to his eyes; taking some in I am sure.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Just a note about Spartrix--

In all the pigeons I've treated for canker, I have never had a single case respond within 3 days. The typical course of treatment in the birds I have had has been at least a week. One of our avian vets (who has treated hundreds of pigeons) told me that she has used Spartrix for as long as up to 3 weeks to get rid of canker. Both vets tell me it has a wide safety margin.

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This is the link to Poly Aid information:

http://www.birdsupplynh.com/vetafarm/PolyAidPlusMainstay.pdf

I know that it is available in the US because lwerden got some, but it will probably only be obtainable on line. I use it a lot.



> Avoid giving this medication to newborn animals *all the way up to approximately thirty weeks*. Young animals can develop joint damage and problems if given this medication too early.


This timeline applies to mammals, there have been problems with dogs, but we advise people not to use Baytril on young birds unless the risks are outweighed by the benefits (eg in cases of paratyphoid).


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Does any of you know about Brewer's Yeast & Garlic pills for dogs? I got some left from last year while I was dealing with a PMV case. I was told by someone on this forum that these pills are very good for PMV. What do you think? Should I give him one?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

No Brewers Yeast while he is on antibiotics.

Antibiotics encourage yeast growth and adding yeast to yeast will make the problem worse. I have also read that that combination is a recipe for aspergillosis and pigeons with PMV are more susceptible to aspergillosis than other pigeons.


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow, I just finished reading the entire thread...I'm so glad to hear that Gray is still alive and thank you for all you're doing.

Just a thought. I'm a rehabber as well. One of my worst cases turned out to be a case of wet pox, w/yeast and this led to PMV because of his weakened resistance. It was a just a matter of providing as much support as possible. If I remember correctly he was on Nystatin, Metronidazole, trimethoprim sulfa, and I think one other yeast med that I can't remember the name. Because of all these meds, he was throwing up as well. I added metoclopramide which settled the stomach and helped control the throwing up. You may want to inquire at the City places to see if you may add this as well.

The other thing is, since the pox went down his entire throat he couldn't eat seeds, so I was tube feeding him. After, I would hold his head upright for quite some time, allowing the food to settle well in his crop. Then I placed him on a donut shaped towel that was higher in the front to support his head in as close to an upright position as possible.

Just my two cents. I can't believe the wealth of info on this thread. 

Also, do you have a weight on the pijie? Are you able to tell if he's maintaining his weight?

I'm on LI, if I can do anything to help, or, if you want me to bring him to the vet I use, please don't hesitate to email me @ [email protected]. FYI, I am going to the vet tomorrow and again in a few days.

Keep up the absolutely dedicated and wonderful care you're giving this needy pijie.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Feefo said:


> No Brewers Yeast while he is on antibiotics.
> 
> Antibiotics encourage yeast growth and adding yeast to yeast will make the problem worse. I have also read that that combination is a recipe for aspergillosis and pigeons with PMV are more susceptible to aspergillosis than other pigeons.


Thats true, use just vitamins, probiotics and calcium for now.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Very good! No yeast then for Gray! I looked for vitamins and probiotics yesterday but couldn't find anything. Petco has multivitamins but there is no B's in them. I am going to look again but in the meantime I have some old multi-vitamin liquid formula which has B1, B2, B6 and B12, but there is no expiration date on it and I think I bought it about three years ago if not more. I also found some Bird Bene-Bac Gel which sounds like it could be probiotics. Expiration date on this is Sept. 2008. I have kept both of these in refrigerator. Do you think these are still okay to use?

Thanks Rockie, I was also thinking that I should weigh him so, last night, I pulled out an old scale I had for some 20 years. He weighs exactly 8 oz which is about 225 g.

He is doing a little better today: a bit more alert and is propping himself up by pushing his tail against the wall. Any disturbance is making his symptoms worse so I've been trying to make things quite and easy for him. I am not sure that any vet can do much more than what's been done for him already? It's been almost three weeks since he came here, he is still alive and seems to be gaining some strength.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I wouldn't use the Benebac, Ante. The first time that I heard of this product was when an experienced rehabber fed it to a baby beaver (I think) but it had gone off and killed the baby.

Cynthia


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

This morning things are again really bad. This might be the end of him. Now I think his heart is starting to speed up. I can hear it and he keeps moving his head and neck every couple of seconds in the same way with his eyes closed all the time. Also I can see some white down his throat and on the roof of his mouth again. This is not good. I wish I could get some Nystatin quickly. Maybe I should try carbo vegetabalis?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> Maybe I should try carbo vegetabalis?


It won't do any harm to try that.

Cynthia


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

If you want the Nystatin, it might be worth it to just stop by WBF during their regular hours and ask for it. Based on what others have told me, they might be reluctant to give it to you knowing you paid money to see a vet, but this should be about helping the bird, so I would ask anyway. If this is yeast, I don't think it's his main problem, but it doesn't hurt to treat for it.

I think hydration is important in sick animals. Do you think you can safely tube in some fluids?

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I wonder if that's the reason that they didn't return my call when I left the message asking for Nystatin. I told them that I went to see the vet. I think that I've been pretty generous with donations each time I go there or pick up a medication. I have no idea what's going on. I've been depending on them a lot and have taken some baby birds from them to raise them here. 

But regarding the fluids... Yesterday he was drinking on his own several times. This morning I gave him several ml of Pedialyte from the side of his beak. Also the puppy chow which I feed him is fully soaked in Pedialyte and before I put it down his throat I dip it in Pedialyte. How many ml of fluids does he need per day? 

He is very thin. Eight oz is not very good, is it?


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante, my vet says for maintenance give 50ml/kg body weight divided into two treatments. Very dehydrated birds need more. Do you know how much he weighs?

Jennifer


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

He weights 8 oz which is about 225 g. So, by my calculation that would be about 11 ml per day. Is that right? I think he's been getting more than that.

He looks really bad right now. This constant movement of his head makes me think that he might be in pain. He started doing this since this morning.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Head moving is nervous symptom. I'm worried that he is under weighted. Are you sure that he is getting enough food? Usually to my sick birds I give 20 ml baby formula with honey twice a day (40 ml in total) and 5~10 ml fluids beside the ones in formula mix.


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Ante, I may be able to get some Nystatin for you tomorrow. Is there any way you can meet me somewhere half way between LI and the city?


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Leslie I don't drive, so it would have to be by subway or the train. You tell me, since I am not familiar with any area beyond Manhattan. The question though is: does he need Nystatin? There is little bit of whitish mucus visible deep down his throat, more in the morning and it almost disappears during the day. I was thinking just in case he has candida. Is candidas same as the yeast infection? I do wish I could find some probiotics. Would that be the same as acidophilus and does it need to be refrigerated?

To be honest, I think if this bird makes it till tomorrow it will be a miracle. He can't move at all or open his eyes. Since this morning I've been cleaning him because he can't move away from his poop.

I went to 4 pet stores tonight and couldn't find probiotics or liquid calcium for birds. Petland had multi-vitamins, the same stuff I have at home so I got that because the bottle at home is old.

Plamenh, I've been feeding him about 20 pieces of soaked puppy chow three times per day which is about 60 pieces in total. I've been hesitant to tube feed him the formula mix because every time I tried he threw it out. I am going to try to feed him some raw almonds after I chew them up myself. What do you think about that idea? I bought some organic raw honey also.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hey, this is strange. I was just feeling his crop and there is something hard in there about the size of a huge corn seed. What is that? I have not fed him anything solid like that for the last few days?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Is it mobile ?

Could it have been there all along? Sometimes peanuts get caught in the crop and that makes them very ill. Do you think that you could ease it out?


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I am going to try to feed him some raw almonds *after I chew them up myself*


Better not, Ante. We humans can carry pasteurella multocida in our saliva and that can make birds ill.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry, I am panicking right now. This is the first time I throughly felt his crop. It was relatively empty with some liquid in it. I felt one piece and I tried to push it out. I got it all the way up to his throat but could not pass it all the way out. Then I tried to push it back and now it's stuck somewhere in between. Then I felt his crop again and there seems to be couple of more hard pieces in there. I Don't know what to do. His heart is still beating but he is barley alive and getting frozen with his eyes closed. So there is nothing in there that's supposed to be hard like that? What about his lungs? Is any of this connected to his lungs? These could be metal peaces. I have no idea. 

Now to think about it, I remember that when I felt his crop in the past he would start throwing up.

I am not sure what to do. He seems to be going cold on me. I am holding him in my hands.


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Have you got a hot water bottle? If not, fill a sock with rice and warm it in the microwave, lie him on the warm sock. Sadly, rapid temperature drop is a vey bad sign.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't understand why is this piece stuck now half a way down his neck. Do you think that this maybe obstructing his breathing. I was able to push a feeding tube all the way down to his crop. So where is this peace? Is it maybe stuck in his breathing tube?

I don't know if his temperature has dropped. He felt colder to me as I was holding him but that may have been because he was drying from being wet from me washing his poop.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

I'm sorry, I've been offline all afternoon and am just reading your posts now. Dr. Pilny is at Veterinary Internal Medicine and Allergy Specialists on the Upper East Side tomorrow. I don't know if the bird is stable enough to be moved, but if he is and you want to see a vet, Dr. Pilny would be worthwhile. 

On the hard piece on the crop, could it be a piece of dried Puppy Chow? If it was in the crop and you worked it only partially the way up, there's no way it can be in the trachea now. Are you sure you are feeling this object rather than the neck vertebrae? 

Is he passing droppings? 

If it's easier to talk on the phone, send me an email with your phone #.

Jennifer


----------



## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Ante, I just wrote you a message on your "visitor message" page by mistake. Please read it and call me if you want. I'm up very late.
***I won't have access to a computer after this reply...no computer at home, going there now***

Holding positive thoughts for Gray.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Jenfer, I just emailed you my phone number. Please call me if you can. I have a feeling that there is a hole in the crop and that I pushed that object through the hole under the skin. There seems to be soft food around his neck now outside the crop. He is starting to breathe with difficulty.


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Panicking does not help. Keep him warm and I would suggest honey and warm water in the crop. If he throws up when you crop feeding that means irritation of the throat. It helps smearing tube with olive oil and slowly taking it out when finished. Leave pieces for now until he gets stronger.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi Plamenh and others,

He is dead. I think I messed up and I feel bad beyond words. Sorry for not making myself understood last night. I am not sure what happened, but I think when I tried to push the piece up his throat to get it out, I must have punctured a hole because the piece seems to have ended between the wall of the esophagus and the outside skin. Other liquid food that was in his crop had spilled out around his esophagus also. This is what I think happened. I could feel it in there. Is this possible or do you think I got all this wrong? In other wards: Is there any space between the wall of the crop and the wall of the esophagus and outer layer of pigeon's skin? But, if what I am saying is right, how come there was no blood there?

Now that he's dead, I cut open his crop and found about 15 pieces of chick peas and corn all expanded, tripled in size, soaked in there. I think it was a mistake to feed him these larger seeds and to try to push them out but I thought they were some foreign object that he might have swallowed before I got him. I know, I did try my best but maybe too hard. I need to learn a lot. I hope I can get over this quickly since many others are depending on me.

PS I had difficulty writing this, my hands are shaking, but I want to share it in hope to help us all learn from the mistakes.


----------



## jenfer (Jan 7, 2008)

Ante,

I am very sorry. I know how difficult it is to lose someone.

I doubt that you punctured a hole in the crop or esophagus. I think it would be very difficult to feel just by palpating whether food has leaked out into the space between the skin and the crop (a vet would probably do a barium x-ray).

Do you know how long the chick peas/corn were in there? It could be that they were causing crop stasis, in which case there was nothing wrong with your trying to milk them out. 

Please do give me a call anyway when you have a moment; we're both from the same area and it seems we share similar philosophies, so it would be really nice to talk.

Jennifer


----------



## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Ante. You both fought so hard.

I agree with Jennifer, I don't think that you can blame yourself for the pigeon's death. You mentioned that the corn and chick peas had been in the crop for some days, in the same situation I, too, would have risked milking the crop.

Cynthia


----------



## FloridaLuv (Dec 19, 2008)

Ante,

I think there is one thing that everone would agree one and that is that your human ,you did everything you possibly could to help him. No one would ever go as far as to say you messed up. 

When in situations like this.... we take what we know and do the best we can, you have done that every step of this journey. 

He knows you gave him the chance he needed. And he also knows that all of us have our time when we are called home. Bless every inch of you for trying. Smile- he is free and he blesses you for helping him with such kind hands on his road home. He couldn't have asked to pass in a better place, and you gave him that. Keep your chin up~


----------



## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

I’m sorry Ante. Please do not blame yourself, there was nothing more you can do. He found finally a peace and his pain is over.


----------



## ante bozanich (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks! I do think that he gave me more than I gave him. I have to mourn but have to keep on going. 

Now I am worried that the baby I found on the street about 10 days ago is getting sick. I just notice change in his droppings (diarrhea) couple of hours ago and he seems to be less spirited. I hope this is nothing. I've tried very hard to wash my hands and keep Gray isolated all the time. I am keeping my fingers crossed.


----------

