# Too weird for me!!!!



## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Everyone, 

I've got a *REALLY* strange thing going on over here with my pigeons. First of all, can some of the large scale breeders weigh in on my first question and that is, how often does a female pigeon lay 3 eggs? Does anyone have statistics or approximate odds to how often this might occur? I know sometimes young or old hens will only lay 1 egg, but what about 3?

Now, onto what's happened. I know some of you read what I posted on Monday about Ricky trying to feed the vacuum cleaner and this may be tied into this on some BIZARRE level, I don't know. Yesterday (Thursday) morning I found an egg in the middle of Ricky & Lucy's side of the room BUT, Lucy is sitting on two new eggs herself at the moment which were laid last Friday and Sunday respectively. Her nesting area is in one corner of the room, on the floor, with carpet underneath. I can't see how this 3rd egg might have rolled off the carpet and halfway across the room for starters. Eggs have rolled out from under her before, but generally they don't go far or leave the carpetted section. Ricky won't go near her either when she's nesting so I really doubt there was a fight and this suspect egg got kicked out during a scuffle. Lucy also knows to lay her eggs in the cubby, she always has before and I've never found eggs just in the middle of the room.

Coincidentally, Ricky started some more very unusual behaviour on Thursday morning when I found the egg. He likes to sit on the floor in the corner diagonally across from where Lucy nests, he always has. It is not unusual for him to be squatting there on the floor each day, cooing to Eggbert and and trying to get his attention. Since yesterday though, this little area of his seems to have turned into a permanent nesting spot! He won't leave it, he's acting just like a bird siting on babies or eggs. He's stopped pacing the wall, being vocal with Eggbert and just sits there, ALL DAY LONG! At first I thought there was something wrong, that he might be sick but he's eating, preening, pooping normally. If I lift him out of the corner and distract him for a bit, he will walk around, stretch, flap, eat a bit, preen, then go back to the corner and resume, "sitting". His normal behaviour has totally changed since the arrival of this 3rd mysterious egg. If Eggbert goes near him now, he doesn't respond like he used to....in fact, there is no response, just like if he was Eggbert's mate, sitting on a nest and focussed on that totally.

With the arrival of a 3rd egg & Ricky's strange new behaviour, it really seems like Ricky laid this egg! I know it sounds impossible and if Ricky is a female, then why were there never any other eggs laid up until now, he's 3 years old. His behaviour has always been very female; very little cooing/moaning, he's attracted to Eggbert BIG time, but Eggbert hates him so it would suggest that Eggbert realizes Ricky is male. Ricky never showed any interest in Henny either, unlike Lucy who is also head over heels for Eggbert and hated her mother.

I'm waiting with baited breath to see if another egg shows up tomorrow at some point....if one does, then there will be no question in my mind that Ricky laid them. However, if no 4th egg shows up, then I've got a huge mystery on my hands that may never be solved. Ricky's behaviour is just too weird at the moment, very suspect of a nesting bird and he's never behaved this way before.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Rickita.

Pidgey


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

candle the egg maybe?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Brad--Bizarre is right  ! I know your calling it a mystery, but it seems more and more like a soap opera all the time. I can't wait to find out if you find a 
fourth egg  

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, Brad, DOES sound like Ricky MAY be Rickita as Pidgey said. I guess only time will tell.

For what it's worth...Squeaks has never laid an egg (I REALLY doubt that he is anything but ALL male!). However, Cindy gave me a "nesting" basket and a wooden egg. I folded a towel, put in basket and put his egg on top. He spends MOST of his time on that egg! I give him shredded paper and he hauls it all in the basket, adding some soft feathers as well. He will SIT for HOURS...then gets up, checks out the seed bowl in the kitty litter box, walks into the living room, stops to poop, continues to the water dishes, takes a drink and heads back to the nest. IF he keeps walking in the water dishes, I know it's bath time.

Wonder what would happen if you gave Ricky(?) a "nesting" bowl or basket, an egg and pine needles or shredded paper?

Do keep us updated. Maybe some Runts can mature later????

HUGS and SCRITCHES TO ALL

Shi

P.S. Uh, maybe Eggbert doesn't like Ricky because he knows he/she is -ah - different?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Brad,

Perhaps Ricky has never actually been "in love" before, and just recently has had enough stimula to product the "egg."

Ricky is also a great girls name.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> Perhaps Ricky has never actually been "in love" before, and just recently has had enough stimula to product the "egg."
> 
> *Ricky is also a great girls name.*




Yes, come to think of it, this is very true about the name, Ricky. Perhaps
you should candle the egg.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions everyone. Sorry to not update you all on the situation sooner too. No 4th egg showed up and I wasn't clear on the fact that Ricky wasn't sitting on this 3rd egg. I found it in the middle of the floor that day and there was a small crack in it so I removed it. Ricky did however continue his odd behaviour of sitting in the corner, non stop for another 2 days until he resumed his typical behaviour. He seems to be back to "normal" now and I guess it would appear that Lucy did in fact lay that 3rd egg. Strange and this is the first time either of my hens have done so, so I guess I'll just chalk it up to an oddity.

My birds are odd, all of them and they are definitely playing out some kind of mini soap opera down in the basement. 

Thanks again,


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

uh, mmmm, Brad...pardon me for wondering, but - ah - just WHAT IS going on in your BASEMENT????

Don't let Pidgey hear about it or he might want to conduct "experiments!" (in the "I'm Late...I'm Late" thread celebrating his 2 yrs. on PT, I'm sorry to say that his alter ego, Doktor von Pigeonstein is BACK!  )

I would keep a sharp watch on them all! LOVE THOSE BIRDS!!

Please give them HUGS and SCRITCHES for me (when you can get close enough!  )

And, PLEASE keep us updated!

Oh second thought, HUGS to you TOO!  

Shi
The Puzzled One


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Brad, actually I thought you were clear about the egg being on the floor when
you found it. Think we were just getting into the some of the possibilities 
for goings on in your basement. I trust your observations, though, and remembering from past posts and pics how your housekeeping is, I know this
egg couldn't have been laid one month and hung around unoticed until the next
month to wreck havoc on your 'count'. So now we know, Lucy is very special
in more ways than one  !

fp


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## Rocky17 (Mar 23, 2005)

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I just wanted to add that I have a pair of pigeons, (Turkish Tumblers) that laid 3 eggs and raised their little family. I have since had to place my birds with my neighbor and they have not laid anymore since. Marie I didn't know 3 eggs was unusual. Marie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Shi & FP for your comments. That is an interesting story Marie about the 3 eggs your bird laid and how they raised them all.

Well, it's official and I'm absolutely FLABBERGASTED!!!!!! Ricky is a she, either that or he's somehow changed sexes.  

Got off work this morning, went downstairs to do my duties and lo and behold, there was Ricky sitting beside a newly laid egg! There is no way that Lucy laid this one. I'm completely dumbfounded, I don't understand how this is possible!

How can a hen pigeon go 3 years without laying a single egg? Not to mention, how come Eggbert hates her so much? From day one, Eggbert's behaviour towards Ricky has strongly indicated that Ricky was a he. Eggbert has never attacked Lucy once she matured and tries to court her now from the other side of the wall. Ricky's behaviour has always been more dominant than Lucy's, he's bigger and heavier too. This is a real strange scenario folks and I think it's one for the history books of pigeon keeping. 

I'm utterly and completely mystified how Ricky can be a hen after all this time indicating he was a male, albeit a male bird that had the hots for his dad.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Here's a couple of pics of the location where Ricky laid and where Lucy's nest is....I'm still in shock over this and wish I could understand how this is possible.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Brad

This really is strange. I dunno why she would have waited all this time unless she is a late bloomer!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just accept it and try not to think about it, Brad, it's obviously... "too weird for you"!

Pidgey


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Brad,

I think what you may have there is what a pigeon friend of mine calls a "cocky hen". I have a little roller hen who is paired with a roller cock. She hasn't laid eggs for some time, but every once in a while does. They go through the whole mating ritual with her displaying male behavior, even to mounting him. Then they will reverse rolls and she will behave like any other hen. I have always wondered if she may simply produce more testosterone than normal. It is the only explanation I can come up with.

Margarret


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...
> 
> Well, it's official and I'm absolutely FLABBERGASTED!!!!!! Ricky is a she, either that or he's somehow changed sexes.
> 
> .....


Forgot to mention Brad, that brief and condidential trip that Ricky had to 
this area ......  

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I think that I have just found the answer to why a couple that I have eggs never hatch.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Fezzuh, I haff juzt rezeeved un vite pigeon, identzical to der vun zat isht percht on der avitar dat you haff poshtet. I vill be doink zum ekshpewimentz unt you bettah vatch it, mein wittle wictim!

Doktor von Pigeonstein


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Brad,

 Congratulations on having another hen. I think it is wonderful.  

I think she went 3 years without laying an egg, because she hasn't bonded or "fallen in love" with another pigeon or person until now.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, Brad, either Ricky IS a hen (and waited this long to tell you) OR Lucy is pulling a fast one on you and is laying an egg in a couple of different places.  

PLEASE keep us updated! This is the best "mystery" we have had in AGES! I'm quite intrigued!! mmm wonder WHAT would happen if you got another Runt???  

You could do what I do for Squeaks: give 'em a basket w/dummy egg, place some shredded paper beside basket and watch them put all the shreds under them for a nice "nest." 

Squeaks is DEFINITELY a male and loves to be in "daddy" mode for days at a time. Then, he switches to mate mode. When he's had enough "lovin'" - heads back to his nest and daddy mode!

Feather...Dok. v P. is baaack...have your SPP white one wing fu and beak attack the daylights out of him!

Pidgey - you need to get that alter ego of yours under control or the SPPers will be after you again!  

LOVE HUGS and SCRITCHES TO Eggbert, Ricky and Lucy!

Shi

Brad: have you checked your water lately?????


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks everyone for your comments and input. Margarret, your explanation of a "cocky" hen seems like the best possibility, but it doesn't fit this situation entirely either. Since Ricky doesn't have a mate, he has taken to me in a way and has for a long time...at least I thought. Also, since there is no other bird around, he has never been able to mount and doesn't mount inanimate objects either. Instead, he will often squat down to be mated by my hand when I pet him. I took this to be a sign he might have "sight" bonded to me and again, he's been doing this for over a year. He's also always been very interested in his father, Eggbert, so I thought I had a gay bird for the longest time.

Treesa if this is the case and Ricky has never been in love before, then I don't know what has changed or who is object of affection really is, lol. 

Shi, I know for sure that Lucy didn't lay this egg, she's still sitting on her own right now and has been for a couple of weeks already. It was about a week after her 2 eggs were laid, that that mysterious 3rd one showed up. Now, another week or so later, a 4th one arrives. I was waiting for a 4th egg much sooner but perhaps because it was Ricky's first time laying, there was just the one. What if there is only this one again again?. That will be weird in itself. 

I've tried giving Ricky dummy eggs in the past, to settle him down and perhaps make him less stressed. However, he's always been afraid of them and didn't seem to know what they were. Even with this egg, he's acting very strangely around it, not like a broody hen at all. Whenever Lucy lays her first egg, she is very aggressive to me if I get near it. When I went to examine Ricky's egg this morning, he didn't even put up a fuss.

*I think the part I'm having the most difficulty understanding is the fact that Eggbert HATES Ricky!* I know that sometimes birds of the opposite sex simply refuse to mate with each other and for whatever reason they just seem to be incompatible, but you'd think then he would just ignore Ricky if that was the case. Instead, Eggbert is VICIOUS towards Ricky anytime they have been together and I've tried putting them together (briefly) on several occasions over the years to see what they do. Every time Eggbert attacks Ricky like no tomorrow and savagely. I always believed that even if we humans can't figure out what sex a bird is, that another bird would know for sure. 

It's just a good job I've found this out now, because I had been thinking of getting another mate for Eggbert, but another hen wouldn't be what I need. If I do end up getting another bird, it'll have to be a male I guess now. I'd have to allow Lucy to be with her father and the new male bird would be for Ricky. But what if another male bird treated Ricky the way Eggbert does, or if Ricky wasn't interested in another male???

Still in shock over here folks and the whole thing just seems like a puzzle still to me. I always believed Ricky was a male and I guess in some weird way, I responded to him differently. It's going to take some adjusting on my part to start really thinking of him as a her now, lol.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Brad,

Oh boy! This really is unbelieveable news....after all of these years, it turns out Ricky is a girl!

Hope you'll continue to let us in on any new developments, as they happen.

Too weird, is right! LOL

Linda


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, Brad, maybe Ricky FINALLY decided that YOU are worthy of HER and is giving you the ultimate compliment!   

Not ALL parents love their kids...looks like Eggbert is telling Ricky to go live her own life and find her OWN mate...incest is not best for him!

I would really like to see you get a new Runt. This is quite an ongoing story. We will certainly be watching....and waiting...


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

mr squeaks said:


> Not ALL parents love their kids...looks like Eggbert is telling Ricky to go live her own life and find her OWN mate...incest is not best for him!



Hi Shi and All, 

Don't forget that Eggbert doesn't know that Ricky and Lucy are his offspring, just like they don't realize he's their father. Eggbert would take Lucy as his mate right now if he could and especially since he's been alone now for over a year.

I've been thinking about this situation very hard since this morning and after finding this egg. I wonder if I've been seeing things too cut and dry, too black and white all along in regards to Ricky being a male or female and the behaviours I've witnessed. Earlier tonight an idea hit me that had never occurred to me before and that is whether or not it's possible that Ricky is a hermaphroditic pigeon.  This condition exists in humans so I figured it had to be possible in animals as well. This might explain a lot of the oddities I've noticed with Ricky and the hatred Eggbert has for Ricky maybe. Perhaps a hermaphroditic pigeon is confusing to another bird, maybe they'd be shunned from a group in the wild.

I'm only hypothesizing about this and have just started to research this on the internet. I found a few interesting sites so far, but this one was very interesting and the study is based on pigeons specifically. If anyone has any information or ideas about this concept, I'd love to hear it.

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/2/2/211.pdf


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Brad and all, I have been pondering about this whole mess and can only hope that poor Brad can get over this confusing mess.

OK. I seriously thought to myself..."Self, what would I do if all of a sudden one of my boys all of a sudden bestowed upon me an egg! "

Tooter...not a chance

Beaksley...I don't think so

Uchie (or is he really a she?)

Paris (definitely no way...positive about HIM) 

Rosco...oh get real Victor!

Clayton...too young anyway!

But what if...just W H A T I F ????

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it. 


I'm going to bed.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Annals of Egg-speriments: what's with the third egg?*

Brad and all,

Sometimes when I observe pigeons and try to understand them, I find it useful to look in the mirror, at us humans. We run the gamut of emotions, odd responses, and unusual genetic variations. Our logic often puts a weird twist on otherwise simple and "straight-forward' items. If we can be weird at times, why deny it to other species? 

There are a number of current crime novels using genetic abnormalities as part of the plot: for example, evidence at the scene of the crime points to male or female perpetrator or witness or victim, and DNA testing shows someone with a rare genetic expression (such as a hermaphrodite). The police are searching for a woman, when they should be searching for a man. And so on.

Brad, the article you referred and linked to, "Birds without Gonads," is interesting. 

I also think that when birds are kept or enclosed in artificial or unusual or unnatural environments such as cages or aviaries or houses, unusual behaviours can show up. Even in natural settings unusual behaviours can show, when circumstances are unusual, and even when they are normal. (There is a lot of repetition, redundancy in my statements). 

I suppose so much *variation* (in behaviour, genetic expression, circumstances, indeed in everything) points to it being useful and perhaps necessary to the survival of a species. 

The predator who likes his two eggs with bacon, coffee, two pieces of toast with marmalade, and a glass of orange juice for breakfast, might overlook the third egg.

I guess things aren't so confusing if one expects things to be confusing. Accept it, go with the flow, and wear that puzzled "Where am I, who am I, what am I doing here?" expression with grace, and others may perceive you as being wise, a deep thinker, an "absent-minded professor" type (if they don't smell alcohol on your breath).

Off topic a bit, but waiting with "(a)bated breath" is better than waiting with a "baited" breath. Don't want to be pedantic, but checked to see if "baited" breath was acceptable and correct, and found this, which I thought interesting: 

Worrld Wide Words, 
by Michael Quinlon. Michael Quinlon writes on international English from a British viewpoint

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm



> BATED BREATH
> 
> [Q] From Steve Gearhart: “Where does the term baited breath come from, as in: ‘I am waiting with baited breath for your answer’?”
> 
> ...


Oh yes: Brad, I like the mirror next to the nest areas, shown in the photos. Very nice touch! 

Larry


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Love the literary excursion, Larry! English is full of homonyms, but it drives me nuts when people don't even bother to look and see if what they are writing makes any sense. I'm not talking about those of us who couldn't spell "CAT" in the spelling bees o that would be me) or throw down a bunch of letters that belong in a word but can't figure out where they go in order and so play "stump the spell-checker" all the time o that would be me, again). I'm talking about the professional writers in the newpapers, magazines, and journals, who don't bother to make proper sentences, can't bother to check their spellings and word usage (spell checkers just check to see if the word is spelled right, they don't check for meaning or context). What an example to the future (primal ARRRRGGHH scream).

BTW, I had a lovely boy lovebird, Schroeder, who for 12 years was always male in everything he did, but one day, to my horror, died immediately after laying his one and only egg. Poor sweet Schroeder.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

THANK YOU, LARRY!! I am GUILTY of using "baited" instead of "bated," and kept thinking I was using the wrong spelling but didn't figure it out. I admit, I DO think of "baited" in relation to cats (for the most part!).

English is quite the language, with all the twists and turns! This little ditty never fails to make me laugh!
*
"I have a spelling checker; it came with my PC,
It plainly marks four my revue, Mistakes I cannot sea.
I've run this poem threw it, I'm sure your please too no,
Its letter perfect in it's weigh,
My checker tolled me sew!"*

Actually, Brad, I DID think about hermaphrodite, but kept my opinion to myself eek: one of only a few!)

I guess we will just have to accept Ricky as "different"...and continue to love him/her ANYWAY!!   

Updates are STILL anticipated...

Shi


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

ROTFL -- that poem was grate!!  
It spells just like I do


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> ROTFL -- that poem was grate!!
> It spells just like I do


*That's purrfect, FSZ!* Continuing the "weird" theme...y'all try THIS on for size! Are YOU one of the 55??? LOL

fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. T he rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! 


Have fun,
Shi


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## flitsnowzoom (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, for once, I'm inn the majority. Scary thought  
I so used to hate those mimeograph stencils, I could never figure out which side was right or wrong. The prof used to look at me like I was "touched" or something. Just majorly dislexic.  so it makes perfect cents.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

flitsnowzoom said:


> Well, for once, I'm inn the majority. Scary thought
> I so used to hate those mimeograph stencils, I could never figure out which side was right or wrong. The prof used to look at me like I was "touched" or something. Just majorly dislexic.  so it makes perfect cents.



LOL I can relate...STILL remember stencils AND manual typewriters!  

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Bet you love puns too?! 

(Sorry, Brad...got a little carried away... I'm done...)


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Brad,

I couldn't open the site that you provided, but I think that the only logical scientific explination for this is the Easter Bunny.

Feather


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## Margarret (May 3, 2007)

Seems I can read the funny spelling. UH OH.......dunno whut that means???? 
And loved the bated explanation. Am waiting with sardine in teeth for the next chapter here of the Ricky chronicles.

Margarret


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*re out of sequence letters in words*

*Shi*, 

Sheesh, Shi! I had trouble with _actually_, kept seeing _alacrity_ in that funny sentence. At first glance at the post, I thought Pidgey was having a temporary overload of mental gymnastics.

I'm left-handed, and ambi-dexterous in many things. Must use my left hand for picking my nose, and my right for wiping my arse (for you Britishers). I don't think this revelation of private information will expose me to any identity theft (would they want anything I have, after this?). With a little practice, I can do some mirror writing like Leonardo da Vinci, but wouldn't want to particpate in any contests.

I was the art editor in my high school senior year at the seminary, and an artist the other years, for the school newspaper. (120 to 180 students, small faculty of ten or so). We used Gestetner printers with waxed stencils. I still have some styluses or styli, pens with several sizes of heads for scratching through the wax for drawing, and some plastic templates for lettering (all of which I bought or obtained later through jobs or private purchase). Also have tools for transfer letters (Letraset and such). And several mechanical drawing boards. ready to step in if the computer world and internet crash because of some huge power surge caused by a supernova next door. 

*flitsnowzoom*,

I think one possible explanation for so many misspellings in publications may be that much of the text is dictated to a computer using one of the speech-to-text programs, and only words (such as proper names not contained in a custom dictionary) highlighted by a spelling checker are checked afterwards for correctness. I use *auto-fill* in MS Word documents to fill in my address. (The feature Auto-fill fills in a sequence of letters when you type a personalized, pre-assigned sequence of keys). For "Hilde" I hit the lowercase *L* key three times in a row. For friends and acquaintances -- had to check the *c* before *q* in _acquaintance_ just now -- I use the first two letters of their first name and the first two letters of their last name, capitals for the first and third letters, and the rest of the name is filled in. Sometimes have the last name included where it isn't really necessary, but when you know so many "Johns" and "Gabi's" and "Anika's" and such, it can be handy for differentiating.

I worked as an editor and proofreader for a small publishing company during university years, so feel I should have fairly good grammar and punctuation and spelling when I write. Living in Germany and being exposed to several languages also means I need to make an extra effort to keep my skills from deteriorating rapidly. Years ago, after a few years in Germany, my family told me I "talked funny." Some of my sisters have increasingly-pronounced southern accents. 

Proofreading copy can be very tedious and boring, especially if the material is not outstanding, timeless, classic literature, so I can understand the copy writer being somewhat careless. 

As for your 12-year-old lovebird *Schroeder* dying immediately after laying her first and only egg, perhaps she had a calcium deficiency; neglected to replenish calcium because of ingrained eating habits. Sad. 

Larry


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks everyone, 

I know what you're saying Larry about pigeons being unique and how each is different in different circumstances. These two birds are definitely unique being hand raised and in an indoor environment that they are. I'm just the type of person who needs answers to questions that I don't understand I guess, especially if it's something of interest to me.

Feather, you probably couldn't open the link because you don't have adobe acrobat reader installed on your computer.

Shi, of course I love Ricky no matter what but again, I like to figure things out, it's my nature.

Onto the update: Today is the second day since Ricky laid this egg and so far no second egg has come. If there isn't one by the end of the day I guess he's only laying one again.

Yesterday Lucy started some very aggressive behaviour towards Ricky and it's continuing today. She won't allow Ricky to sit on her egg and keeps going up there to drive her away. The odd thing is that Ricky seems totally afraid of Lucy now and considering she's a new "mom" on an egg, she's not even attempting to protect it. You'd think she would be more maternal/paternal given the circumstances and Ricky's never been afraid of her like this before! I think Lucy feels it's her egg or that is her domain because she also alternates and lays up there as well. Ricky wants to sit on his egg and was this morning while I kept Lucy at bay but I know that won't last. I guess none of this matters since all eggs are infertile and all but I wanted Ricky to experience this and allow his instincts to kick in given the circumstances.

Oh boy, these pigeons of mine really keep me guessing, hopping, wondering and worrying.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Just another update: Sometime between 2 and 3pm, Ricky laid her second egg. So, it's 100% official no questions asked, Ricky is a female or possibly a hermaphrodite but I guess I'll never be able to confirm that or know for sure.

I had Lucy outside during this time and she enjoyed herself sitting in the shade mostly and then got a bit of sun too. When I put her back in her room, she tried to chase Ricky off again but this time, she was not successful and Ricky defended her eggs, yay! 

This is so bizarre to me.....two hens now, who'd have thought this was going to be the outcome after all this time? Perhaps I should change Ricky's name to Ethel now.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Nah...We are so used to the name Ricky, that I don't think we could handle a name change...especially since we JUST went through a SEX change!!   

Well, Brad, congratulations...I don't think anyone else on the site has gone through what you have...at least recently. 

Just repeat after us: "Ricky is a HEN...Ricky is a HEN!"  

Wow! How fascinating! You gonna give them each their own nest bowl and nesting material???  

Can't wait to hear what happens next!

HUGS and SCRITCHES TO ALL...espcially the NEW Mums!!!

Shi


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Shi & everone, 

Well as of today, Ricky is still sitting on her eggs and Lucy has abandoned hers. Actually Lucy abandoned them over the weekend and ever since then, she's been going totally nuts.  She's pacing the wall even more than ever, climbing up it while flapping, and completely restless. Something has changed with the dynamics of the two hens ever since Ricky has laid. Lucy hasn't even eaten in two days and I know this because her food bowl hasn't been touched and there hasn't been a single seed scattered on the floor around her dish. *sigh*. 

I let Lucy be with Eggbert yesterday morning for a brief time and things went well except that Ricky got perturbed by this and left her eggs. Ricky then started pacing the wall herself. Both hens are completely jealous of one another and competing viciously for Eggbert's attention. Today, I just couldn't take it anymore and let Lucy be with Eggbert again and Ricky left her eggs again but went back to them shortly after. I know that the 3 of them are not happy being separated and the two hens together on one side of the room. I have to admit, I'm not totally comfortable putting Lucy with Eggbert either and I just hope he doesn't give something to her that he's been a carrier of all along.

I'll be going to look for another male bird soon, it'll have to be on a weekend and it'll have to be (UNFORTUNATELY) from the same man that I got both Henny and Eggbert from. I don't trust this guy, feel that he doesn't look after his pigeons well and they are always full of lice, have worms and cocci. I have no other choice however, there are nearly no other breeders of runts in my area and within a reasonable distance. This man lives 1.5 hour away as it is and is one of the closest runt breeders to me. The other breeders I've been to in the past were even further away and didn't have very many runts to choose from. This man is the largest breeder of runt pigeons in Ontario as far as I know. 

I also hope that another male runt will be interested in Ricky. I can't get the idea out of my head that Ricky might be a hermaphrodite, however unlikely it might be. It would be awful if I got another male pigeon, went through the month long quarantine process and then he rejected Ricky and attacked her like Eggbert does.  

Well that's if for the update. I must say it was very nice to see Lucy and Eggbert so happy together. They were both cooing, strutting, nuzzling and snuggling together since I put them together at 9:30 am and as of 11am, they were still doing this in one of the nest boxes. I hope Ricky will not be bothered too much by this and start freaking out himself.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

As if you don't have ENOUGH to worry about with all the shennanigans of your Runts....will she or won't she? will he or won't he? will they or won't they...Is HE or is SHE not???? *SIGH*

I feel your confusion... 

Hope all goes well with that breeder. I know you will do your best to select a good male...

Of course, I, for one, WILL be anxiously awaiting with BATED (now that I know the correct word!  ) BREATH...

Meanwhile, sending LOADS of HUGS and SCRITCHES to all!!

Shi


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Shi, 

It's a big worry for me on several fronts. Introducing a new bird into my group scares the poop out of and because of how important & special my hand raised pigeons are to me. If a new male doesn't take to Ricky, then I'm up the creek. 

Lucy seemed to do well with Eggbert today and I hope she ate finally. It'll be harder for me to know now how much she's eating since she'll be sharing a food dish with Eggbert. Don't really know why she went off her feed for a couple of days, I think it's the stress but it's very unlike her. Otherwise, she's acting totally normal. I hope I haven't made a mistake letting her be with Eggbert either!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Well this morning and after Lucy & Eggbert's first night together on his side of the room, I couldn't believe how peace & tranquility has taken over my bird room! Yesterday it was non stop cooing, strutting, nuzzling and the love affair seemed never ending. Don't forget that this is the first time that Lucy & Eggbert have been together like this since Lucy was just a youngster and Eggbert was with Henny. 

I checked on them before I left for work at around 9pm yesterday and I expected to find Eggbert and Lucy perched side by side together in wedded bliss. However, I found them perched on separate perches altogether, lol. 

This morning and even though complete peace and calm had enveloped my pigeon room, Lucy seemed to be very aloof. Eggbert was doing his usual; sitting in the nest box calling & calling to her to come join him but she just seemed to be admiring the "new" surroundings. They are getting along fine, but it just seems like she's bored with all the courtship already, lol. She even wanted some petting from me whereas usually she wouldn't have it while she was trying to seduce him and get over to his side. Maybe this is a case of the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. 

I can see how her behaviours are even more indicative of a hand raised and an inexperienced pigeon watching them interact. Eggbert definitely seems a bit miffed at some of the things she does. He seems totally surprised to see her "allow" me to pick her up with no struggle or fright, to sit on my lap and get petted. It's like he's saying to himself, "this chick is crazy, she's going to get herself plucked and fried up for dinner, 

I've noticed that they are both a lot calmer now though, and Eggbert seems to be taking notice of how she interacts with me. Hopefully she will learn a thing or two from him on how to be a "better" pigeon. He wanted to feed her a regurgitated meal of seeds this morning but she literally just turned her cheek to his offer. 

Ricky is still content too, miracle of miracles she's not freaking out yet at the nuptials going on next door. Her side of the room was a BREEZE to clean this morning, lol. 

I took a few pictures of the new couple, but only one really turned out. Here the two new love birds are....or maybe that should be old married couple already, that's what you'd think if you saw them together today, LMAO.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW, Brad, I am always soooo amazed at how BEAUTIFUL your Runts are! 

mmmm, I wonder how Ricky would do with Eggbert after her "sitting" time is over...especially since NOW she KNOWS and has accepted that SHE is a HEN!  

I suppose all three of them together would be out of the question since Lucy and Ricky are adversaries??

For now, sounds like things _may_ be settling down somewhat...at least I hope so!

Any idea how soon you may check out a mate for Ricky??? Any possibility that some type of arrangement could be made IF the male and Ricky did not bond?

Wishing ALL of you LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES! Darn, I LOVE those birds!

Shi

P.S. Peace is once again reigning here...Squeaks is back in daddy mode. The cats are delighted! He just finished arranging his second handful of shredded paper around his egg.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Shi, looks like it's just you and me on this thread now but I appreciate your thoughts, input & moral support. 

In any case, thank you for the comments on my pigeons, I *KNOW* you'd love them in person and to "hug and "scritch" them, lol.

Eggbert will never accept Ricky and he hasn't even given the circumstances now. I watched Ricky come off her eggs this morning, poop near the wall and Eggbert was right there trying to attack her through the screening.

The 3 of them together is DEFINITELY out of the question...as Lucy and Ricky are total adversaries and enemies, have been since they "came of age". And Eggbert wouldn't tolerate her either with his new "bride" at foot.

I'll probably go to the farmers market this weekend, just to see what's there. The man who I mentioned brings a few birds to the market every weekend to sell but I do mean a few, maybe 6-10 birds. At his farm, he's probably got 200-300 birds to choose from and I prefer to see all of them pen by pen.

I will ask the man if an "arrangement" could be made and see if he'll take the pigeon back if it doesn't work out, but it'll be kind of "iffy" after I have to go through the month long quarantine procedure...but we'll see.

Thanks again for the regular comments, I appreciate it


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

LOL! Oh, I'm SURE more will be adding comments! Might be either too early for some OR they are busy earning a living! As you know, since I'm on permanent vacation, my time is much more flexible! Wouldn't TRADE for ANYTHING!

ONE of these days, I'm gonna see a RUNT in person! There is just something about those birds that makes me what to hold 'em and hold 'em and pet 'em and pet 'em! Squeaks only "permits" me to "love" him when he's in mate mode, for the most part! Ungrateful bird!

The quarantine time frame bothered me as well...as far as returning the bird. You hate to devote all that time and then find that things aren't working out. NOT to mention how the bird is feeling!

I know I've mentioned this before, a long time ago, but I think it's amazing that your Runts don't slip and slide all over that vinyl floor. Wonderful stuff to clean easily but has always seemed so "slippery" to me...unless there are embedded patterns...

I will _assume_ that IF Lucy and Eggbert ever have eggs, you will replace? ROFL...that's ALL you need...baby Runts! Now THERE is something that will upset the status quo!  

Shi


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Those are sure a couple of beauties ya got there Brad.

It is funny how you mentioned how you can hold her and how Eggbert seems totally surprised . Some of mine have that same look whenever I handle some of the tamer ones that actually love to he held and petted.

It makes you wonder just what they are really thinking...?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Shi, again

I work a 40 hour/week job in case you've forgotten so I'm not around all the time either. I guess it's just that I'm caught between the regular man's working hours that allows me to be on at any given time, lol. 

Until you see a giant runt pigeon up close and in person, you'll never understand or respect them like those of us who know and own them...they are truly "giants" of the domestic pigeon world. 

Yes, the quarantine time DOES bother me and then even if the man will take the bird back, I'd have grown attached by this point and would wonder what the bird's fate would be.

The floor is GREAT, I love it and even though the birds do occasionally slip on it, it's nothing like what others have said. Perhaps it's because they are runts and don't fly much, but they have no problem on it. They ONLY problem I find is with manicures, it's so smooth and soft that I have to trim the hens nails because there is nothing to wear them down. Other than that, I really like the flooring and because of reasons I've mentioned in other threads; it allows me to see the poops in detail and without degradation or absorption.

You are correct...if Eggbert and Lucy ever produce eggs, I will replace them immediately and no matter what. Before I always knew Lucy's eggs were infertile, but now that she's with a male bird, they will be replaced after they are laid. I won't take the risk, Eggbert has proven himself to be a terrible father, Lucy is a "non confirmed" mother and I don't need any other runts now in my house, lol.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Victor said:


> It is funny how you mentioned how you can hold her and how Eggbert seems totally surprised . *Some of mine have that same look whenever I handle some of the tamer ones that actually love to he held and petted.*
> 
> It makes you wonder just what they are really thinking...?


Thanks Vic

Yes, I do believe that pigeons are very smart and learn from observing their peers, hand raised/tame or otherwise. My situation is just as unique as yours is and I think we all pay attention to the behaviours we observe and are left to conclude what is going on.


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Yes, I knew you worked a full time job...in fact, don't you work nights? I believe I remembered that because my daughter also works nights. Since I'm a sun and light person, I'm always amazed that there ARE those who choose to work "in the dark!" I was going to ask you if you also hang upside down at times, but decided I had better not say anything...  

Yes, size is a major factor with those Runts...the better to hug 'em. Fell in love with a Silky chicken some time ago and sure wanted to bring him home. Most unusual bird I had ever seen...up to that point. Another huggable one. He belonged to an elderly lady who died. She even had him potty trained. Unfortunately, he died soon after I saw him.  

I agree, Victor...the "looks" are something else! I've noticed that some pijies seem to have "looks" galore, whether due to their physical structure and/or their personality!

I do have some vinyl in my kitchen and love to watch Squeaks do his helicoptering on its surface! He looks like he's ice skating! Also, he's easier to catch...sometimes. When he tries to run, his little feet are going a mile a minute but he's staying in one place! I'm laughing so hard that he almost gets away! And, yes, great for close poop inspection!  

Hugs and Scritches

Shi


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Brad,

Glad to see that things are working out well with the new family dynamics.

That must be a relief.

Hopefully, your last hurdle will be introducing a new male to Ricky. Here's hoping that that also works out well.

Linda


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Brad, that is wonderful news that Lucy and Eggbert have hit it off!!!! The stages of courtship are interesting. Early on, the hen is very coy and will ignore/move away. Later on, the hen seems to want to eat seed together with her chosen. Looking forward to progress on this pair and updates on Ricky's situation! (I've always thought Ricky was a cutie!)


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Lin & Terri

I certainly hope I haven't made a mistake letting Lucy be with Eggbert and getting another bird from this man really puts a knot in my stomach to be honest. 




TerriB said:


> Early on, the hen is very coy and will ignore/move away.


Not Lucy, lol. She nearly jumped Eggbert the minute they were introduced. She was strutting around him like a bug eyed floozy and they mated about 5 minutes after being together. 

Today Ricky left her eggs. Things were going well; she was sitting on them around the clock and faithfully but I guess the goings on with Lucy and Eggbert were too much for her to handle. (Sigh)

Now, both Eggbert and Lucy take turns trying to beat her up through the screening. Ricky paces the wall and they follow along pecking at her through the screen. Lucy is not eating very much or well lately either. She is eating but she's lost weight and I really don't know why. I can only figure that the change of things has upset her or that she's just too preoccupied with her new situation.

Well that's about it for today.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Geeze, and I thought I was the only one  with disfunctional pijies!  *


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Please keep us updated, Brad!

You certainly have a TRUE Pigeon Soap Opera going on!! Maybe Victor can give you some helpful hints??  

I do hope that Lucy is OK...maybe just the "change" is throwing things off a mite!

Continuing to send LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES to ALL  

Shi


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Victor & Shi...

You folks really have no idea what "dysfunctional" means in a pigeon clan, lol. 

Just a short update on today's activities; Lucy is being EXTREMELY aloof with Eggbert. It's like she has or wants nothing to do with him OTHER than wanting his genes, if you catch my drift. She has stopped following him around and totally ignores his calls to join him in the nesting box. She's behaving like a deer caught in headlights or a bird that has become a zombie. She's still being a fussy eater but I tested her response today by offering her, her favourite...sunflower seeds. She ate those as fast as the kernels hit the floor so she's not unable or too sick to eat. She's just being a fussy, finicky bee-atch!!!!

Ricky has calmed down too, she's no longer tending to her infertile eggs, but she's not "climbing the walls" either to horn in on the action next door.

Well, that's if for now.


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## pidgers'2006 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow i think thats really strange lol... a third egg wow... maybe Ricky is in as much shock from the third egg as you lol. As long as his healths ok i wouldnt get to attatched to it too much but still its a worry when they arent acting like themselves =P Just track to get him back in reality and keep him happy. But i gotta say...
DONT BE FOOLED! One of our pigeons, Rita, we thought was a female for like 5 months because another one of our 100 % sure males,Pidgy, would always coo and kiss her. But after a while we noticed that she wouldnt lay eggs and Pidgy wanted some kids lol and they got in a big fight and they seperated. A week later we saw Rita the thought-to-be female mate with one of our female pigeons and brought back a wild female with her lol. So its still a REAL big shock for me cuz i always thought he was a female but now im 100% sure its a male. Now i feel bad for Pidgy =P
Anyways keep us updated! i wish u luck...


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Wow Brad! They are beautiful! It didn't take you long to figure out how to make your babies happy. Good luck with finding Lucy a companion.

Feather


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey Brad,

Leave it to Lucy.....let's hope she's just playing hard to get.

Glad to hear that Ricky has calmed down and is not overly disturbed by Lucy and Eggbert being together.

Linda


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thanks Pidgers, Feather and Lin...

The update from the weekend: Things aren't going the greatest from what I observed over the weekend. Lucy appears to be stressed out with Eggbert now and it's like she doesn't know what to do. I watched her several times wanting to settle down in one of the nest boxes because I think she's getting ready to lay again. The problem is, Eggbert always wants to join her and shadows her every move. I don't think Lucy likes this or knows how to handle it. Whenever she has settled in the nest box, Eggbert follows her and then she ends up leaving. So, nearly all weekend Lucy has been sitting in the middle of the floor looking miserable and like she doesn't know where to go or what to do.  I found Eggbert in the next box way more than her over the weekend, calling and calling her to join him but she seems totally uninterested now.

Another thing and along the same lines is that Eggbert won't leave her alone either when she's eating. He's constantly there trying to preen her or mate with her and this is stopping her from eating as well. Even when I put two separate food dishes in the room it doesn't matter because he goes to wherever she is. She hasn't been eating the greatest these last several days for some reason and this isn't making things any better or easier!!!! Eggbert was the same way with Henny too although his constant presence never stopped her from nesting.

I thought I'd try and see if Lucy wanted to go back to the other side of the room with Ricky. That perhaps she would like to settle down in one of her own nesting areas. Nope, after only being there for less than 5 minutes, she was flying back and forth trying to get to Eggbert's side.

Eggbert is such a problem pigeon, it's sad to say and I love him dearly but he's really been the cause of all these problems I've had with my pigeons in one way or another. He's overly aggressive, extremely territorial and possessive and it's caused a huge rift between my two hens now.

Ricky is back to pacing the wall feverishly again so between that, Eggbert constantly trying to attack her through the wall and in between shadowing Lucy's every move, it's just turning into a very stressful time again for me and all 3 birds again. They are never happy and I'm beginning to feel that no matter what I do, that they are never going to be happy.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Brad,
So sorry that all the hormones flying around are causing friction among your birds. It's so easy for the social balance to shift out of kilter. I wonder if this happens more or less when there are larger numbers to offer other options?


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

TerriB said:


> Brad,
> So sorry that all the hormones flying around are causing friction among your birds. It's so easy for the social balance to shift out of kilter. I wonder if this happens more or less when there are larger numbers to offer other options?


Hi Terri and thanks for your input...

I really suspect that larger numbers of birds make things easier ultimately. Unfortunately I'm not in the position to have large numbers of "chicken pigeons", lol. These birds are a handful and I just couldn't have a whole whack of them in my basement. As you would know, everything about them requires more work being a utility pigeon; they eat more, make bigger poops, don't fly much, and then track their poop all over etc, pacing the walls. Ooops, that's my situation. 

Things seem to be forever evolving down in the basement with hormones and the change of dynamics. Today was a pretty good day actually. I am fairly certain that Lucy is going to lay any day now. Funny thing is, she's been an egg factory for months now. Now that she's with Eggbert, her LOVE interest and mating with him, there are no eggs and it's been nearly 2 weeks since her last clutch. I DO have a funny thing to report though for those who are interested...I wish I had my camera handy and taking a video clip of this! 

Yesterday Eggbert made about 3 attempts to mount Lucy by 9am and that I saw. His 3rd attempt was not readily accepted by Lucy and although she squatted down at first, she seemed to forget what was about to happen next, lol. Eggbert jumped on her back, proceeded to get into position, then all of a sudden Lucy stood up and started walking around with him on her back! LOL...it was really something to see and Eggbert managed to balance himself on her and she was able to support his weight while walking for a bit.

Today, Lucy was sitting alone in the nest box for quite awhile which made me think she had laid her first egg last night, but she hadn't, but I'm sure she's just getting ready. Eggbert, (GLORY BE) was not in there bothering her ...instead he was squatted contentedly on the floor, next to the wall, right beside Ricky. Ricky seemed to enjoy the closeness of him and was calm and quiet this morning too.

I'll be going to look for a new male runt very soon, I might even go to the farmers' market near my house this weekend. Thankfully, my recent pigeon supply shipment just came today from Foys. I've got another delivery coming from Siegels soon as well. I needed several things (medication wise) and other natural goodies to have ready in case I do find another runt pigeon. * I HAVE TO BE CERTAIN* that any new pigeon brought here has been treated for all the common ailments and is in top form before introducing him to Ricky.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...Now that she's with Eggbert, her LOVE interest and mating with him, there are no eggs and it's been nearly 2 weeks since her last clutch....


Could be normal bond development. Although established pairs take about 10 days from when they come off their eggs to laying again, a new pair (looking from afar doesn't count) can take many more weeks to settle down.



Pigeonpal2002 said:


> ...although she squatted down at first...all of a sudden Lucy stood up and started walking around with him on her back!....


I've seen Mieke do that on a number of occasions, especially if she is concerned that another bird (Walter) might interrupt them. Bliss will try to ride things out, hoping she will let him resume.


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## Matt D. (May 12, 2007)

well he could be a she and you could have two shes and one he???


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## Jazicat (Oct 31, 2005)

You're birds are very beautiful! I can understand being confused about gender because my hen fertilized an egg and now we have a baby .


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you again Terri, Matt and Jazicat

I guess I'll just have to figure things out on my own, watch my birds and just question what they are thinking and doing. 

I'm no stranger to pigeon behaviours through observation and question what's going on all the time, but it's always an enigma to a human observer and unless you're a "pigeon whisperer" like Phil.


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