# tips in pigeon racing



## freak06 (Apr 6, 2009)

. .hi im new in pigeon racing. . thats why i want to ask for tips. thanks


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and Welcome to Pigeon Talk,

PLEASE feel free to check out our homing and racing pigeon forum (in the pigeon for sport section), and read the threads that are available that will give you tips and offer alot of help.

Then feel free to ask any specific question you can't find an answer for.

Thank you.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

There are some wonderful threads on this forum for you to read through. Just do a search for what ever topic you might be interested in adn read away! Once you've soaked in all the good information on the threads feel free to ask your questions, that's how I started. Don't feel intimidated at all about asking questions, we all had to start somewhere!

Good luck - Henry


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't race, but one tip I hear is feeding them peanuts before the race.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

Hey there,

My only "tip" would be to always question what you hear and weigh it against common sense. There are a lot of practices out there that people do only because "that was the way my mentor did it 50 years ago". Some of these practices go against every shread of medical and scientific research and fact but are religiously used anyway. Don't be affraid to ask questions and then research your own answers when the ones you get from people don't add up. 

I am not saying that people are all frauds, just that we are all inclined to find the quick and easy "fix", if you will, to a problem or question. Take the time to research and investigate for yourself. Make your own mistakes and learn from them.

That would be my two cents.

Dan


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## [MN]eXist^_^ (Feb 13, 2009)

It's like a golf magazine they teach you everything but it's up to you to adapt what you want to use in ur swing


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a tip. Disregard "eyesign" as a means of picking good pigeons.

Being new to the sport, you probably wouldn't even consider eyesign anyway, however, some ads will stress eyesign as something "special". Common sense and science tell me otherwise.

Here is another free tip. You do not have to spend big money to get good racers. Start with birds free or next to free. Most (probably all) racing clubs will donate good young pigeons to new flyers. We all want as much competition as possible.

This is not to say those who purchase big money pigeons don't have an "edge". But how good does your beginning birds in the sport, have to be? Most of Ludo Claessens great birds, were started with a bird that just "showed up" at his lofts. From a deceased mans loft. A man that apparently we can not even find out the identity of.

Start out cheaply, and work your personal "magic", and good luck.

Oh, one more thing. The biggest mistake new pigeon flyers usually get into, is accumulating too many birds. Resist the temptation to get everything you like or is offered. It is supposed to be a fun hobby. Not a job.


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## Bezz (Dec 12, 2008)

learning said:


> Hey there,
> 
> My only "tip" would be to always question what you hear and weigh it against common sense. Make your own mistakes and learn from them.



This is so true !!!!

Bezz


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> Here is a tip. Disregard "eyesign" as a means of picking good pigeons.
> 
> Being new to the sport, you probably wouldn't even consider eyesign anyway, however, some ads will stress eyesign as something "special". Common sense and science tell me otherwise.
> 
> ...


You crack me up !!! 

Don't know why I feel obligated to defend my friend every time his name is used. But, somehow over time, I have become an authority on the subject. Even Ludo refers to me as a "Claessen Fanatic".....(he might suspect I am even a stalker, since I have peered into his back yard)

Ludo has been known to purchase thee most expensive bird at an auction. He has complained, that the better his birds become, the harder it is to find a bird good enough to meet his standards. For this reason mostly, has his colony become close in breeding. He was only able to secure about 10 pigeons since about 1995, that were good enough to cross with his. 

Now, it is true, that he is a Grand Master as a selector, and has found excellent birds from which to breed over his career in some strange places. But, to suggest, that he acquired cheap pigeons along the way, and a bunch of strays, would simply not be true. There is only one known example, and he in the end, culled that bird, by selling it to Mike Ganus ! 

IMO, everyone can have their own ideas, and I have mine. But, I just wanted to add my two cents to your statement....you actually made me laugh ! 

Carry on....


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Glad I gave you a chuckle. Since I do not know Ludo personally, I can only go by what I have read. From many locations, the same story.

A deceased mans bird "showed up" on Ludo's property. Ludo went through the procedures of trying to locate the owner and found out that he was deceased. Ludo was given permission (I assume) to keep the bird and liked the bird in hand. He bred from this bird many winners. It bacame one of the foundations of his loft (not the only bird by any means though). You have to have something worthwhile to breed the great ones to, don't you? It is a fact that Ludo was a great racer before this bird "showed up". My use of the Ludo story concerning this bird, should be evident that is was an illustration of how you do not have to spend big bucks to win races. Of course those that sell squeakers from big buck pigeons will disagree heartily. 

I don't remember any sons of Lrry Bird, Magic Johnson, Pete Maravich, Jim Brown, Bruce Jenner or almost any great athlete, ever being as good as their "sire". Maybe the hens they were paired with, just didn't have the genes. I am sure that they had great teachers though. Their fathers and their fathers lifelong friends and associates.

A quote from the Mike Ganus web site:

"The gift from heaven. Ludo Claessens was in his yard when out of nowhere this 
beautiful white grizzle landed. Ludo contacted the Belgium Royale Federation who 
responded to him that the fancier had died. Ludo liked the bird so much that he bred 
out of him. He bred the Golden White which won 13th Provencial Orleans vs 3069 
birds and 4th Provencial Chateauroux vs 2031 birds. These are 300 to 350 mile races. 
She then went on to be the 3rd Golden Crack Winner. Year after year this white grizzle family kept breeding winners so I went over to Ludo Claessens to see for myself. 
As soon as I handled the Golden Witten I knew I had to have him. 

Golden Witten is medium in size, strong perfect body, fantastic breeding eyes. The 
most beautiful racing pigeon that I have ever seen. Most important thing though, I knew 
that he already has bred winners at distances of 200 to 400 miles. 

Father and grandfather to: 
Yeti (NL 9964498-99) 1st Morlincourt 15,000 birds 
Casper (NL 9835807-98) 1st Perrone 4,191 birds 
White Cloud 8th Niergies 4,339 birds 
Cinderella 10th Nijvel 2,281 birds 
White Diamond 1st Nijvel 2,348 birds"

I assume that Golden Witten translates to "Golden White".

If you believe that I was saying that Ludo had cheap or free pigeons and became a legend through them, you misunderstood. What I was trying to illustrate is that you just never know where a world beater (really great pigeon) may come from. It might be the free pigeon some guy in a local club gives you.

To respond to my posting with wording like "and a bunch of strays" is exageration. I never said that nor suggested it. I did use the word "most" and probably should have used the word "many" in its place. But hey. I ain't the brightest light bulb on the Christmas Tree by any stretch.

I could go on and on, but I will end with how you also made me laugh by saying that to sell a bird to Mike Ganus is "culling".  Are you insinuating that Mike Ganus has a bunch of "culls" in his lofts?

No, of course you are not. Neither was I concerning Ludo's Lofts.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Conditionfreak,

I was having a little fun with you ! 


We are not in total disagreement. More then a couple people in the world, have attempted to acquire a world class colony by way of a very big check book....like 7 figures....$?,000,000.00 not counting the pennies.  And if that system really worked without fail, then only the rich guys would have all the best pigeons in the world. More often then not, those great birds may end up in these lofts at some point, but they were produced and bred, for the most part, in fairly modest back yard lofts.

Most of the great breeders in the world, did not start out with a million dollar inventory. That gives hope to all of us, and what makes this sport so exciting and fun. You can start with relatively modest means, and over time, build a very impressive colony of racing pigeons. 

There was or is a guy, who used to run ads in the RPD, he had developed a family of pigeons he called, the "Green Dragon" line. They were acquired at a local farmers market for a couple of bucks each. So, he did not lay out a bunch of money. But, he did get his hands on some good birds. The amount of money you pay for a bird, may not reflect it's value as either a racer or a breeder. 

There was a similar story of Ludo and a friend, who went to a pigeon market. Don't know if this was like a swap meet, or a meat market. But, as the story goes, Ludo helped his frind find some good YB'sbirds. The friend was so greatful, he wanted to give Ludo one of these birds, at first Ludo didn't want to take the bird, but he did. The story went something like this, he raced the bird, it won a bunch of races, and went on to produce some great birds. These may have been pigeons sold for just a few Euros.

So, if you can ID some great pigeons, and get them free or cheap, then that will work just as well, if you had paid $10,000 each. The value of the bird is not based on what someone paid for it. The value is based on it's racing and breeding ability. 

I would suggest, that if you are starting out, that you start with some good birds. The catch 22 is, most proven racers and racers, that have really produced the goods, typically are not given away, or cheap. It happens, but when it does, more often then not, the owner did not see the true value. And many fanciers, myself included, often do not spot the star before the fact. It is only after it has won races, or produced winners out of turn, that we say...oh yes, this is a star. And if you are smart, you rarely want to part with those rare gems. And that is why the owners want some money for them.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

True enough.

I would assume that with most people, there would be more gratification in starting with average pigeons and winning, than starting with ten thousand dollar pigeons and winning.

Reminds me of some guys I played basketball and tennis against on the old playgrounds. They had the best shoes, rackets, headbans, etc, that money could buy. But I crushed them because I had the never give up, never let up and never quit until it's over mentality. If things did not go their way, they would panic and not keep their head into the game. It also applies to a boxing match. Lose your head and plan, and you generally lose the fight.

I also believe that many a great pigeon was handled by a poor flyer and never had a chance. But I do not believe that it swings the other way very often.

If Ludo Claessens had my pigeons, I truly believe he would have done great, and in the interest of truth, if I had Ludo Claessens birds, I probably would not have done them justice. I just don't seem to have the knack for spotting a great bird of potential. I know what I like when handling a bird, but so far it hasn't transferred to winning the big ones.

But then again, I have only been in one big event and I got second place  , and the bird I got second with, I wasn't going to send and a friend handled the bird and told me she was "ready" and to send her.

I hadn't even thought of sending her. She had never done anything other than below average.

So what the heck do I know.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Ludo Classen is the gem not his birds...IMO. I bet he can take any stock of birds and make them winners if given the time to do so.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*My soap box or sermon on starting with quality stock...*

Conditionfreak,

What the heck do any of us really know about pigeons ?  I am sure we all know, or heard, or read about somebody , concerning some subject, who acted like they knew everything about something. When the facts were quite the opposite. Heck, ask any teenager about any subject, and for the most part, they already know everything !  (Teenage readers who are smart enough to read posts on this site, are different of course..)

Heck, I confess, I don't even know what I don't know. I read some of my posts from 2004, and I think to myself, boy ....you were a real smarty pants, weren't you Warren ? The more I learn about pigeons, the more I have learned to be humble, because I have learned that in a year or two, I will look back, and say....boy was that a stupid comment. (Sometimes it only takes a day or so...)

So, never accept most things I say as gospel, because there is always the chance I will later change my mind, or discover some new "truth". Everything I say, is only my understanding or experience up to this exact moment. 

I don't know if starting with average or typical pigeons and then winning, brings more gratification then starting with $10,000 pigeons and then winning, is true or not. I myself started with .25 cent "barn" pigeons purchased at a farmers market, and some "fancy" pigeons for .75 cents. If I would have selectively bred those pigeons for the last 45 years, maybe I could have reached the point of winning a club race, I don't know. It's an extreme example of course...but most of those decades would have been discouraging. I would have invested years of blood, sweat and tears, to reach the level of the average birds in my club. Not sure that would be real satisfying. One could start with average to start with, and after 45 years still have average. Mathmatically speaking, most fanciers own average pigeons. 

I didn't win too many races as a kid, in fact, I didn't win any. And the only real bright spot, was getting a bird home on the day from 500 miles, but that was not with the stock I started with, I had upgraded to some Paul Sion bloodlines down from Imported stock. I had managed to get my hands on some good stuff. 

Personally, when I got back into pigeons after a long time on the side lines. I didn't want to spend the next couple of decades attempting to breed some typical birds up to good. If I had decided to get into race horses which I love, I don't think I would have tried to start with some old broken down horses ready for the glue factory, and then try to breed up from them to someday win a Kentucky Derby type of race. It might be possible yes, there were some famous cases of someone buying a horse that nobody wanted and it turned out to be a great racer. But, that might be a 1 in a million shot. I would have acquired good solid stock, that I could afford, and started from there. 

If someone is starting out in racing pigeons, and they have modest means, then acquire the best that you can with what you have. Then attempt over time, to upgrade your stock, according to what you can afford, and what becomes available. Some of this upgrading may come from breeding a better bird, and some you will have to buy, or have given to you. 

Even if you are in a position to start with $10,000 birds, that is not the end of it, that is just the starting point. I'm not satisfied with my pigeons, I want to breed or acquire even better. It may be more challenging now, in that when I started with .25 barn pigeons, someone like Mr. Ressel gave me a $50 bird, which in 1965 was BIG money, based on my $3 a week paper route. That was like 4 months of my gross income ! But, today not to many people are going to hand over to me, a pigeon valued at 4 months of my gross income. And even if they did, odds are it would be a lesser bird then what I already own. 

Show me someone who is completely happy with the quality of their current breeding stock, and I will show you someone who is not striving to improve what they already have...and why should they...they are already happy. Show me someone who owns real, world class quality stock, and is not satisfied with the status quo...and demands improvement, even greater perfection.....well, I will show you the stuff that Champions are made of.

The people who sell diamond engagement rings, suggest six months of your income to buy your girl a pretty rock, she can show off to her girlfriends. Personally, I would suggest a weeks pay for one of those real good fake rings, and then take 25 weeks of income and invest in a couple pairs of some decent breeding stock. Or instead of sending your kid to one of those $30,000+ colleges, send them to the local community college, or have them join the army, and then invest the savings into something for yourself, like some first class breeders. Instead of that big expensive new car, save $15,000 and purchase a certified used car, and invest the rest into your hobby !

See....you get the picture, it really is all about priorities, and what is important to you....invest in yourself, you have worked hard your whole life, you deserve to get something really special...treat yourself.....


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## fastpitch dad (Nov 21, 2007)

conditionfreak said:


> I don't remember any sons of Lrry Bird, Magic Johnson, Pete Maravich, Jim Brown, Bruce Jenner or almost any great athlete, ever being as good as their "sire". .


Well of course there have been some, Just a few of the top of my head.

Ken Griffey SR. and JR.
Bobby and Bret Hull
Calvin And Grant Hill
and don't forget about the Ripkens

I think it's even possible in Pigeons, After all , isn't that what we're after.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

fastpitch dad. Yep, there are five or ten. Out of thousands, maybe milions world wide.

Warren. I agree with you 96% (for me to agree with anyone more than 80% is unique). But we were not really talking about starting with ferals or .25 cent pigeons (or 100 pasture horses). I was talking about starting with gifts or cheap to buy (cheap being relative to paying four grand for a Ludo or three grand for a Ganus bred bird) from club racing enthusiasts. I know there are people out there with a barn full of untrained and uncared for well, pigeons. But I believe that anyone who actually sends birds to races, pays entry fees, attends club events, etc., will have decent enough birds.

Yes, some will use a race to get rid of a bird or two they don't want to keep. Some will give away birds that they actually are thankful to get rid of. But the majority of club flyers have tended to their birds and tried to improve their birds over time, so that a gift bird from a club racer to a club newbie, has IMHO, a great shot at becoming a bird to be proud of.

I sure wouldn't want it to be known that I gave the "new guy" a piece of junk. Heck, my birds sometimes dissappoint me, but it ain't because I didn't try to get the best I could afford. I believe it is because I am not as good as my birds, in this game.

I firmly believe that it is 40% the bird (given it is actually a purebred homing pigeon), 50% me, and 10% luck.

Show me a great racing pigeon and I will show you a great pigeon flyer on the same property.

The best bird I ever owned was a gift from a fellow flyer as I was moving four states away. To be honest, I do not even remember the guys name, but I remember the pigeons band number. It has been 30 years.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2009)

I agree to what condition freak said as in its all in the flyer to make the bird what it is when given a good bird .. for I too could never do a bird like Zeus maxx justice if I ever owned such a bird


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## UncleBuck (Dec 23, 2008)

I wonder how many people have started with expensive birds and through poor breeding or poor choices ended up with mediocre or just rotten racing birds?
I think a lot of raising winners is knowing what you are doing, breeding correctly and not being afraid to cull a bird from your team.

(Added)
I like pigeons and I do not ever expect to win a race (Except against Ozark Bill, because there is a Dr. Pepper riding on it.) or produce world class racers. I raise homers because I like them, I want to be able to take some to a friends house, release them and see if they all get back home. You know I will worry about each bird until I see it trap, then I will smile and tell the birds they did a good job. So for me, it is the fun of it and the comradery of other pigeon fanciers.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

For any new pigeon flyer,this is my tip/tips....
Tip #1)...Purchase good strong pigeons...If you make friends with an 'Old Timer',who takes you under his wing,you will get good birds for free sometimes...
Tip #2) Keep your pigeons healthy...This is 75% of the battle to be competive on race day...
Tip #3) Well fed pigeons,but not overweight pigeons will preform well on race day...
Tip #4) Pigeons trained but not overtrained will perform well on race day...
Tip #5) Don`t overcroud your loft with to many pigeons...They need fresh air 24/7...To many pigeons make for diseases to take hold of your birds....
Tip #6) Keep a clean loft,keep your water jugs sanitary,and never feed birds on the floor...Feed in a feeder,so the grains are clean,and not in the droppings before the pigeons eat them....
Tip#7) Use common sense in the loft...If something doesn`t seem worthy,don`t do it...
Example>If the birds look alert,nosey,clean,energenic,that means they are probally very healthy,so don`t give them any meds...If they are the opposite,get some droppings anyalised,to see if there is a problem....
Tip #8) Pay attention to the info that the guys who are racing their birds well,say here on Pigeon Talk...The guys/gals that are RACING their birds,have to be extra carefull in what they do with their birds,more so then someone who just keeps birds in their loft for pleasure....It is a little easier to maintain healthy pigeons,when they don`t get mixed up with other pigeons from other lofts....Alamo


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## Bezz (Dec 12, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> I firmly believe that it is 40% the bird (given it is actually a purebred homing pigeon), 50% me, and 10% luck.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## hillfamilyloft (Jun 22, 2005)

Back to advice. 

The only piece of advice that I can fully support with no questioning is that of starting with the best birds that you can find. 

All the other trial and error stuff, others advice and what you read can be debated, altered and so on. I would emulate the methods of those who are winning, make positive adjustments, and beat them in the races. 

The true test of a family of bird is whether it can win for someone else besides the breeder. This takes the flying methods out of the mix. Which brings us back to the best birds you can find. 

Randy


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

I believe that there is little difference between your average racing pigeon and those very expensive racing pigeons.

I could buy a loft full of Ganus bred pigeons and never win a race. I also could fill my loft with pigeons from Joe Blow, a flyer of your average club, and win some races. It depends on how I manage them.

I do agree with getting the best birds you can obtain, of course. But I do not believe that there is a great difference in the birds. Naturally birds that cost someone a ton of money, are going to be well taken care of. They will also be in the loft of someone who has the means to do this racing thing top shelf.

A millionaire is supposed to win more races than a thousand-aire. It doesn't always work out that way, but usually it does. Millionaires get the best pigeons, but they don't always get the best girls  I got the best one ever.

Now, if only she could fly.................


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Alamo said:


> For any new pigeon flyer,this is my tip/tips....
> Tip #1)...Purchase good strong pigeons...If you make friends with an 'Old Timer',who takes you under his wing,you will get good birds for free sometimes...
> Tip #2) Keep your pigeons healthy...This is 75% of the battle to be competive on race day...
> Tip #3) Well fed pigeons,but not overweight pigeons will preform well on race day...
> ...


Most likely the best collection of tips, in a single post, on this thread.

Thank you.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> fastpitch dad. Yep, there are five or ten. Out of thousands, maybe milions world wide.
> 
> Warren. I agree with you 96% (for me to agree with anyone more than 80% is unique). But we were not really talking about starting with ferals or .25 cent pigeons (or 100 pasture horses). I was talking about starting with gifts or cheap to buy (cheap being relative to paying four grand for a Ludo or three grand for a Ganus bred bird) from club racing enthusiasts. I know there are people out there with a barn full of untrained and uncared for well, pigeons. But I believe that anyone who actually sends birds to races, pays entry fees, attends club events, etc., will have decent enough birds.
> 
> ...


Wow *96%* !

If I had the level of agreement from everybody, I could be a world leader...

There is hope. So, we agree, that there is a difference, between my very orginal "foundation" stock of .25 cent barn pigeons....and the racers from a typical sportsman, who have won a few club or combine events ! See, we are making progress !

So it's not that big of a leap, to concede that there might be a difference between that same fancier's birds who may have won a club race or two, and a fancier who has won numerous National Championships, flying againest, in some cases tens of thousands of pigeons ? Now is it all just the birds ? Of course not, the fancier plays a very major role. And so thus, the One Loft Event was invented, that takes the role and skill of the fancier out of it, but not all of the luck. But, it is the closest thing to determining how good the *birds* really are.

So, one road a person could take, is to acquire and breed from birds which have completed these types of One Loft events. In this method, you are removing the skill of the fancier, and focusing on the performance of the bird.
Of course, the winners from these more prestigious events, are not typically going to sell cheap, and typically are not given away to a new guy starting out. So, we are back to square one, you want to acquire good birds to start, and the better ones are not cheap. For some guys, blowing $50 on a night on the town, is an uneccessary extravagance, and for some a $25,000 weekend in Vegas is chump change, so again, simply go with what you can afford. 

You don't have to spend $25,000, but you will have a lot more options then the guy who has a $250 budget. Just like everything else in life, the best of things are not cheap. Cars, homes, educations, horses or pigeons.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

And here, all of my life I have been told over and over again that "the best things in life are free".


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, the best things in life are free. The most i paid for a bird when i was racing was 25.00. I was given many birds, ones that were not up to the owners expectations, BUT, i flew against C.B.S. Birds, Hackmere Birds, and many noted other lofts i can not remember now.
My loft looked like a Hillbilly shack, i had no money, I had little time.
But i gave them all a run for there money.
Work with what you have , train hard, BUT with out loosing them.
FIRST, make them HOMERS! toss at all points of the compass, once you have trained on the line of Flight. Train the opposite the guys you fly against train, and NEVER train with other Racers, unless they live a block or three away from your loft. Go on a fishing trip and single toss, one every 1/2 hour.
Use your own instincts... If you do it the way the ones you are flying against do, you will most likely lose.. unless you have the same Quality birds.(i never did) They will be one step ahead of you... Your birds our YOURS, they will respond the BEST they can, WITH YOUR way of doing it.
Did i win a lot of races? no just one. But with the little resources i had to work with, after getting 4 or 5 in the top ten three weeks in a row, A very well respected old flyer said "you are flying like Champion" 
it is not all about winning, it is the results you get from what you have to work with....JMHO Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Emulate the winners or go your own way.

hmmm............

So many forks in the road.

I guess the best way would be to combine both of those options. Take what others do, that makes sense to you, and invent or "tweek" what others do, and make it suit your specific situation and ideas.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, Condition freak all i can say is if you are in a foot race, and are following the champ, you are sure to lose. BUT if you reinvent the Wheel, and find what works for you you will be amazed. When i was flying the vent systems in every ones lofts were little garage roof units, no fans, after thinking about it i installed one 24' box fan in each section blowing out.
The difference in performance was amazing! If i had the time and money some flyers have, i would build lofts, have someone scrape for me, and concentrate on training and work from there. I would rather have a 20th place with out the money spent by some flyers, than have a first, by using what is at hand JMHO Dave


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## Brummie (Feb 16, 2009)

LUCKYT said:


> Well, Condition freak all i can say is if you are in a foot race, and are following the champ, you are sure to lose. BUT if you reinvent the Wheel, and find what works for you you will be amazed. When i was flying the vent systems in every ones lofts were little garage roof units, no fans, after thinking about it i installed one 24' box fan in each section blowing out.
> The difference in performance was amazing! If i had the time and money some flyers have, i would build lofts, have someone scrape for me, and concentrate on training and work from there. I would rather have a 20th place with out the money spent by some flyers, than have a first, by using what is at hand JMHO Dave


I remember that day, when Dave confessesed to having fan's in his loft. It made perfect sense to me, I had them too.
But the amazement from the old timer's that it was not natural, blew me away!
His win was glorious. We happened to a member of a club were we all had glory...If you came from last and made it to 10th.There was no lack of encouragment. I no not kow if we will see those year's again?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

LUCKYT: All I can say is that in almost every foot race by the really good runners, that I have ever seen on TV. It is usually the guy out in front for the first 6/8's of the course, that finishes fourth or fifth. The winner is almost always the guy who was third or fourth until the very last leg. (this of course does not apply to the really short distances, like 100 meters).

Same for horse races.

But I get your point.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> And here, all of my life I have been told over and over again that "the best things in life are free".


I always thought it was a kleptomaniac who came up with that saying. 

My Dad always told me there was no such thing as a "Free Lunch" or a "Free Education" ? Somebody or some thing had to expend energy....with the possible exception of "Free Time". I am stumped on that one, because we all have just 24 hours in a day, and you can't get any extra free time and put say 26 hours in a day.

But, getting back OT. 

Instead of the term "Free" pigeons, I prefer the term "Gifted" birds. And I neglected in my earlier posts, in my desire to hear myself talk and going a bit astray, in order to articulate if you have done well in life, it is OK to invest in your hobby. I forgot what I think is one of the very best tips.

*Secure a mentor*, guide, teacher in this craft we call pigeon racing. It can make a whole lot of sense, IMO to learn some of these ropes, from someone who has played the game more then you have, in addition to all the other resources, such as this site, books, magazines, web sites, etc. 

If you then show a little bit of respect and appreciation, then you might be given the opportunity to be "Gifted" or "Loaned" some breeders, that most likely you would not otherwise have access to. Of course even in this process, IMO it's best to not come across as a mooch. 

I have actually had guys, perhaps on our second or third conversation asking me to give them birds off of XYZ or let them have that winner.   Or, when "Gifted" a few YB's, they would closely inspect and examine the birds, as if I had just asked $2000 per YB. And then have them say, I don't want this one, I'll take this one, how about giving me that one over there in the pen ?

I have had a number of very key birds, which were gifted to me, by mentors and friends that knew I had some fine birds already. I have been humbled by their generosity. These types of relationships and arrangements should never be underestimated, nor taken for granted. In some of my previous posts, it may have appeared that I was looking down my nose at "Gifted " birds, and that only spending a lot of money for a bird, would insure obtaining good stock. That is not what I wanted to communicate. 

So secure a good mentor, and be a good student. But, don't act like you are entitled, and expect to have everything given to you.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

Again, warren well put. never look a Gift horse in the mouth... Stands to this day. Dave


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

*Winning is THE ONLY THING in competiton*



LUCKYT said:


> ...... it is not all about winning, it is the results you get from what you have to work with....JMHO Dave


 I can appreciate what you achieved with what you had available, you made the most of it, and that is good.....

But here is another tip. 

Like a bad habit, losing can become a comfortable habit for some people. 

I remember being on a losing High School wrestling team, week after week we went out there and did our best, with what the coach had to work with, and what the team had to work with. We had poor attendance by fans even on home games. (Any idea what it feels like when the opposing team has twice as many fans in the bleachers at your own Home Games ?)

Best I can remember, I don't remember to many people saying, "Well you guys did the best you could, with what you are working with"....Nope, all I can remember is some kid in our assembly hall yelling something like "Our Wrestling Team Sucks !!"

Somebody had to be the 2nd worst team in the County, and it was us. And I can remember when we actually did win a match or two, and I can tell you, winning is not the most important thing, it is *the only thing *!! 

And maybe I am emotionally damaged from those horrible experiences, because the humiliation was unbearable. But, I didn't like being on a losing team then, and so I certainly won't like losing now. And if someone is OK with being on the bottom half of the race sheet, then they are liable to stay there for awhile, because they have become comfortable with defeat.


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## LUCKYT (Jan 17, 2009)

It is not about excepting a lower rung on the ladder, People have their limitations on how far to stretch the Family budget. I pushed the limits hard.
My Wife would have let me keep pushing, but i declined. 
I believe in balance. I have an advantage in my life, i can do what ever i want, as far as Hobbies, spending extra Money Ect. Goes. I choose Variety, over being great, or even good, at one thing. JMHO Dave


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Warren. You and I are "old school". I do not throw a tantrum when I lose, and I will congratulate the person who beats me heartily. But I hate it when I didn't do the very best I could have. If after it is over, I realize that I did not give it my very best effort, I am mad at myself. No one else. Just myself.

If I do a sport, I am in it to win. Bless the person that beats me, but they better be good. It doesn't matter if it is basketball, tug of war or checkers. I am in it to win. The only one I ever get mad at if I lose, is myself. Even some of those lousy umpires and referees are not at fault. It was me that lost.

I say "old school" because now, being retired, I teach and referee kids in various sporting events. Soccer, basketball and t-ball. These days "they" (the powers that be) does not want any winners and losers. "They" say it hurts "self esteem" in those that are not the winners. 

So, I referee basketball games and we do not keep score on the younger kids, and on the older kids we erase the score after each quarter. Then after the end of the season, everyone gets an exact duplicate trophy. Everyone. No one is declared the MVP. No team is declared the champion. The kids don't even have a clue if they won or lost, when the game or the season is over. So many times in past years I have had a kid come up to me and ask "did I win?" or "who won"?

Now, they don't even ask anymore. It doesn't seem to matter to them

So, we have two seperate sporting cultures inthis country right now. Those that just do not care about winning and only about participating. Then are those that live for sports and winning is everything. The latter group will fight each other after and during sporting events, and sometimes send in goons to take out the other teams star player. They may also attack a referee or umpire and beat him with a baseball bat.

I have to say that both are probably unhealthy mentally and emotionally. I believe that winners and losers should be declared after a sporting event for sure. But, I also think that those parents of Little League players should chill a little. Just like pigeon racing and the various scandals over the years. Banding the "third" leg of a bird. Poisoning another flyers birds. Single tossing a bird fromt he shipping crates before the actual race release. I am sure that now, there are some who have figured out or are working on figuring out, how to "adjust" the eletronic clocks.

I know that money is a big factor, but I believe that sometimes it is just someone who never wins through hard work and perserverance, wanting to win and be recognized.

Anyway. I do think your terms "gifted" or "loaned" are better than cheap or free. I wish I had back all of the things that I have loaned in life, that became "permanent loans".


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

LUCKYT said:


> It is not about excepting a lower rung on the ladder, People have their limitations on how far to stretch the Family budget. I pushed the limits hard.
> My Wife would have let me keep pushing, but i declined.
> I believe in balance. I have an advantage in my life, i can do what ever i want, as far as Hobbies, spending extra Money Ect. Goes. I choose Variety, over being great, or even good, at one thing. JMHO Dave


Absolutely positively nothing wrong with that !!

Please don't take my ramblings personally, I was waxing philosophically.

I think balance in life is to be desired. You are most likely balanced, and enjoying a variety of things in life with your family. You would fit in very well at our club. There the focus is in having fun, and simply enjoying our pigeons, and not taking this game too seriously. That was deliberately designed that way, in order to relieve stress, not create stress.

Perhaps I can direct this to the topic of this thread in the form of a tip, by saying, try to figure out what it is that you want from this hobby, and how much of your life you will allot to it.

I have never been accused of being balanced. What some people might call passion, when applied to me, a better description might be obsession. My brother claims I have had this "sickness" of a one track mind, since childhood. It was focused on different things at different times in my life, it has been both a blessing and a curse all at the same time. 

So Dave, there is nothing wrong and much to be said, for having a healthy balance in life. My point, if there is/was one, if one has the desire to be say the next Tiger Woods of golf, or Mark Spitz of swimming, then all your focus must be on golf or swimming, and not golf and swimming , baseball, football, bowling, chess etc.


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

conditionfreak said:


> ....If I do a sport, I am in it to win. Bless the person that beats me, but they better be good. It doesn't matter if it is basketball, tug of war or checkers. I am in it to win. The only one I ever get mad at if I lose, is myself. Even some of those lousy umpires and referees are not at fault. It was me that lost.
> 
> I say "old school" because now, being retired, I teach and referee kids in various sporting events. Soccer, basketball and t-ball. These days "they" (the powers that be) does not want any winners and losers. "They" say it hurts "self esteem" in those that are not the winners.
> 
> ...


 I guess you articulated better then me....maybe I am "Old School"....if there is no thrill in the victory, or agony in defeat.....then I ask myself, why then even keep score ? If we apply that to pigeons, then why waste money on clocks ? We could just get together at the end of the "race" and slap each other on the back, and hand everyone a diploma. 

I'm not sure what we are teaching kids with this "everyone is a winner" let's build up your self-esteem, and then later in life, they find out if they want something, they have to work for it, and earn their status in life. And they won't "win" that promotion, or that raise, or that bonus...or the hand of that pretty girl....simply because they showed up. 

But, perhaps that is best left for another thread ?


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yea. We've beaten this dead horse enough.

(notice how I got in the last word)


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Somebody had to be the 2nd worst team in the County, and it was us. And I can remember when we actually did win a match or two, and I can tell you, winning is not the most important thing, it is *the only thing *!!
> 
> No wonder my life has been so screwed up all this time. I always thought that it was "_*whining*_ is not the most important thing, it is the only thing"! No wonder people look at me funny.
> 
> ...


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## whitesnmore (Sep 9, 2004)

Bottom line is American's back in our day were taught to be the strongest, the best at what we do. Now days some use excuses such as "no Money", "not enough time", "a hawk hit" or anything else they can think of to excuse their sorry Bu**s for not winning. Let them be at the top of the sheet every week and see how quickly their toons change. Dont hate the person who perservers and overcomes the lesser dedicated worker. Winning is what you are in this sport for. BOTTOM LINE. To say anything less than that you are a liar and only lying to yourself. No one believes this load you are dishing out. 
I personally hope there are 10,000 pigeons to race against in my future as I will only become a better flyer. I too compete to win and only do anything in life to be the best I can. When you "ACCEPT" less than your potential you are admitting failure---NO matter what you may call it.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't like to lose, but if someone beats me fair and square, then I feel much better. Then I try to better myself for the next fight. This, I believe, is a good competition. Each competitor evolves!

So for pigeon racing tips--keep improving your stock by selection. Mate your winners together and you probably have better probability of getting good birds.


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