# No idea what I'm doing,... PLEASE HELP!



## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

I rescued 2 ferals from the the trash can 4 days ago. Judging from the pics of baby Sara, I'd say they are about 12 days old. One is looking very good, eating quite a bit, and growing very fast... the other, however, seems to have what I've seen here called "slow crop"?... It doesn't seem to be emptying at all. From reading the posts, I learned about the baking soda/water treatment. I guess I will try this tonight. I partially emptied the crop last night, and this morning tried 5 ml of feed and 5 ml of a Gatorade/water mix. I left work to check on them at lunch time, and he doesn't seem any better. The big one (of course) had an empty crop, so I fed him, and gave the little one 5 ml more of Gatorade and water,.. but I am not optimistic. I've learned everything I know of pigeons from reading these posts. Please, please help! If anyone has any more advice on the "slow crop" I would certainly appreciate it very much!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Alea .. I see you are getting good information and assistance in the other thread. You might want to contact Project Wildlife and see if they can help you out with the small baby that is having the problem. If things get really dicey and you are not able to find someone to help you locally, I am not all that far away from you and would be willing to take the baby and see if I can help. I'm in South Orange County in the City of Lake Forest.

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry,
Thank you so very much for your timely response. I did not try the emptying/baking soda treatment tonight as he still looked well when I got home from work. Did not feed him though, just gave a bit more to the larger one. Tonight I am going to try just a bit of watery feed and massaging, and see what happens. If he is not better in the morning you will certainly be hearing from me. I think my workday should be pretty flexible tomorrow, and if you are available, I might want to bring him up. I am just really concerned about him not growing any larger. The other sib is twice his size.
I also want to add that they both have greenish, watery poop. It was brown and firmer a few days ago,... is this just from the formula, or might there be an infection?
Thank you again.
Alea
p.s I will try finding "project wildlife" contacts as well, but for the record, I called a wildlife rehab division of the CA dept of Fish and Game as soon as I found the birds. I spoke to a woman who basically told me that they were probably "rock doves", that the population was rather large anyway, and a couple of dead ones wouldn't be so terrible. I was a bit disappointed, to say the least.

[This message has been edited by alea (edited January 20, 2004).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm sorry you got such a pitiful response from the wildlife rehab group you spoke with. I sometimes have to wonder what these people are using for brains and hearts.

It would be a good idea to separate the babies not only to be able to better monitor "output" but also in case of illness in the smaller one.

Just let me know if you want to bring the little one to me .. I'll be happy to do what I can.

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry,

Yes, even though he seems to be digesting some, I am worried about him just not growing much. Going from the pics of baby Sara, I would say they are somewhere around 15/16 days old,... but the little one looks more like day 12 pics, and is less than half the size of the larger one. I don't have a scale, unfortunately, so I can't say exactly how much of a discrepancy there is, but they looked much closer in size/developement last friday. If I do bring him up to you, I think I will bring them both with me just so you can see the difference. Thanks again. 
For today I am going to keep trying, but I may bring him up to you tomorrow. I usually get off work at 12 noon on Fridays. When would you be available tomorrow?
Also, I think I am going to try a soaked dog-food h.b. egg yolk mixture tonight.... just to try to fatten him/them up if I can. Any extra advice for me? Please post it here. I can not check the e mail at home.
Alea


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I should be here tomorrow afternoon if you decide to bring the babies up. Just let me know by phone or e-mail, and I can give you directions. 

It sounds like you are doing about all you can for right now.

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi All,

Just wanted to update you on these two darling baby pigeons .. Alea was good enough to drive them up to my place this afternoon. There is a very marked difference in the sizes of the siblings .. this is a link to two babies I had a couple of years ago, and they are pretty close to what Alea has .. 

http://www.rims.net/itsy1214.htm 


Sadly, Itsy (the tiny one) did not survive. If you search the archives here for Itsy, you should find some posts about the two babies.

Though I don't know for sure, I am guessing that Alea's little one is suffering from both paratyphoid and candida. Alea now has enough Baytril and Nystatin to treat both babies if needed.

The babies both went back home with Alea, and she is going to keep us posted here at pigeons.com. It was a pleasure to meet her and so nice to have yet another such dedicated pigeon person around.

Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited January 23, 2004).]


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Wow!
I just tried to post a reply, but my computer is acting strange,... here we go again!
First, I have to say that between lunch and dinner time, my tiny baby had an empty crop,.. (YAY!) At dinner I fed him a 50/50 formula-applesauce mixture. I am going to feed (if possible) and medicate again in a minute,... (it's almost midnight) for the sake of continuity with the Baytril. If all goes well in the next couple of days I will try to space it out within the waking hours, and then try a higher fat/protein diet to catch him up. Thank you all for your insight, and thank you, Terry for all the help! 
Alea


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update Alea. That is very good news indeed. Hopefully the drugs will nip whatever the problem may be in the bud. I'll look forward to your next posting.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so happy to hear some good new on this topic. I'm still trying to get over the fact "that she found them in the trash can"

and...and that the wildlife rehab lady said
"their population was large and that a couple of dead ones wouldn't be so terrible"

what is this....selective rehab? What kind of mentality is this..? 

Once again, thank you Terry, for making this one another HAPPY AND HEALTHY ENDING!

..and thank you Alea, for caring enough to help...Give those babies a big hug from me!
Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Things still seem to be going pretty well,... But I've noticed that since my little ones crop has been emptying fairly normally, the formula is definitely thickening in there. I think there nay be an air bubble in there... I've been checking him out and that's what it looks like. For now I am just giving extra water. Is this normal with the meds? I know they can't pass air, so should I empty the crop at next feeding time? Thanks again for all the encouragement.
Alea


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea .. yes let's try to empty the crop one more time. The meds shouldn't be causing the thickening of the formula in the crop. You might try mixing it up and letting it sit a bit longer than usual. If it is then too thick, you can thin it a bit before feeding the little ones. 

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

PS: If it is air in the crop, just be careful that you are not accidentally getting air in when feeding. It's easy enough to do .. if there is an air pocket at the top of the syringe and you push the plunger all the way down, you may be getting air into the crop.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yeah, I remember with Skye and Sonic, I had to make sure the syringe was empty of air by squeezing all the formula to the top, even letting some food out of the top to make sure the air is gone. 

It is like feeding a baby with an "infafeeder" you have to shake it and push the plunger all the way up, until you see no air and the food squeezes out through the opening. Boy, that sure brings back some memories! Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello!
All is still well, I really think the tiny one is still digesting food much slower than the larger one, but that may just be me being paranoid. He is much smaller after all, and can't take near as much at a feeding... I see definite improvement though, and more normal looking "output". I am anxious to try a more high fat/protein diet, but I know I need to be sure he is completely back on track before introducing something new. 
Oh! And just to clarify, the birds weren't actually in the trash can,.. (yet) the guys who were cleaning our fire escapes were going to kill them though, as the nest was right on the floor and they needed to scrub it... so I tried to just remove them at first, then restore them to the mother, but she didn't come back after the scrubbing. I waited about 40 min., watching from a distance with no luck. I was afraid they were going to freeze at that point so I just took them home. So, here we are 10 days later!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, Alea. I'm glad the little one is improving. I think it would be OK to start trying some soaked puppy chow on Wednesday .. soaked in water until soft and puffy .. then feed small pieces by hand. If the baby can handle the puppy chow, it should start to put on some weight fairly quickly. The next step after that would be starting on a few soaked seeds. The larger one should be almost ready for soaked seeds any time how.

Terry


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## Anarrowescape (Jan 6, 2004)

im happy to hear the baby is doing well now good luck wit them both.

------------------
Robert


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

If the oldest one is fine, and 14 days old you can start introducing pigeon seed. Put some down infront of him and move it around a little, eventually he will start picking at it, and playing with it. You can still supplement it until he gets the hang of the seed.

I take my babies out at 14 days and let them play with the seed, on my back porch, and they love it. Lo and behold, I put a plastic gallon of water with them ( with a hole cut out for them to drink out of)and they tried to bathe in it!

Once he starts to pick up seed, you can gently tip his little head in a dish of water, being careful not to push beak in too far. Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Cool! Thanks for all the advice. I figured it was about time to start the big one on seeds. Don't I need to get some grit in his crop before I feed seeds, though? I have seen grit at the bird store, but none especially for pigeons... been wondering about that. 
And as for the little guy, I am assuming a gentle transition is best,... maybe a bit of soaked puppy chow mixed in with his regular feed to start? And maybe some hard boiled egg yolk?
And thirdly, I have also been meaning to ask about bathing. Is it okay for me to put my big one in a bit of warm water? Up until now, when they get messy I clean them up with warm water and cotton balls, but I saw in the pictures of baby Sara that she was in a bath at about 17 days. I don't know if I even want to try at all with the little one. I don't know if it matters, but he seems pretty off balance. He falls over quite a bit when he's begging to be fed.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Alea,

It would be a good idea to introduce seed gradually but don't worry about getting grit in first. Make some available and leave it for them to decide how much they need and when.

Same with the bath. But a cat lit tray of shallow warm water down and see if they want to bathe. It may take a few days before they decide to go ahead. 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Alea,

You are doing such a great job, it is wonderful!

While the older baby is perfecting his seed eating technique he does not need grit. Once he is on nothing but seed, and drinking well on his own, then you can provide him a little bowl (Like a hamster bowl, that doesn't tip) with pigeon grit. You don't add it to the seed, they pick it up as they need it from a seperate bowl.Any pigeon store carries pigeon grit.

You can offer a small bowl of water for bathing-to the older baby. My babies surprised me, at 14 days, but that was in the summer! If he is feeling great, he most likely will take a dip. Make sure he is free of any air drafts, and that the water is warm.

I wouldn't consider letting the little one bathe, until he has caught up to the other. You can continue to clean him up as you have been doing, but for now, just concentrate on getting him well.

Start with the soaked puppy chow, as Terry suggested, the harboiled egg..I'm not sure about....let's wait until he is getting good at eating and digesting the puppy chow. 

Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Will do! Thanks to all!


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hello All!
Just a quick update... all still goes very well for me and my pijjies. The tiny one has an empty crop every time I go to feed them, so I am very happy about that. (Thanks again, Terry for those meds.... I couldn't have done it without you!)He looks better all around... still very tiny, but good. His feathers seemed to sprout overnight. The big one is still doing wonderful... I had to work late last night and have duty tonight, so I didn't get to start them on soaked puppy chow yet. I did give my big guy a few soaked seeds, though. Tomorrow I am getting my bird cage,.. (early Valentine's Day present. =) And I think I am going to put my big guy in there for a couple of hours each day. I am starting to feel bad that he is in a dark box most of the day except for feeding times. The little one needs the warmth and rest to recover I'm sure, but not Mr. Healthy..... right? I try to let them wander around for a bit,... but there's always so many people, (and kids) around,.. I'm nervous that someone will get stepped on. 
I'm trying hard to think of original unisex names for them now. =)
Hey! this is getting so cheery, maybe I should move on from the "Emergency Care" discussions!!! Tomorrow is the last day for the meds... woo hoo!
P.S. I do have one more question while I'm on... if I happen to have a male and a female, should I worry about them mating? I'm just not sure if inbreeding is as big a deal for birds as it is for mammals. I'd appreciate anyone's insight on this.

[This message has been edited by alea (edited January 29, 2004).]


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes, there is a defenite possibility that if they are male and female they will choose each other as mates. Don't let them hatch any eggs, as that is too close!

My handfed babies, Skye and Sonic, are sister and brother, and are together today in my big coop. They made the adjustment to a normal "pijjie" life because they had each other.

They had such a bad start that I don't dare seperate them. I don't let them breed, and throw away their eggs. I tried letting them play with wood eggs, but Sonic would not make a good mother. Due to their mom abandoning them, Sonic is not mother material. She walked out on both eggs when it was bath time in the aviary, and has done that more then once. I love her dearly and don't mind one bit. She is precious, as Skye is. Treesa


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea! What wonderful news about the babies! I'm so glad the little one is doing well. Please keep us posted, and if you want to start a new thread in the general section, that will be fine.

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Okay,
I don't know if I am just a little paranoid or what, but my tiny pijjie didn't seem to digest any of his "breakfast" by "lunchtime". I just gave him a little water and hoped for the best. I started him on soaked puppy chow 2 days ago but only at "lunch" and "dinner" (so he didn't have any this morning, and still his crop was full at 1p.m.)
I stopped the medication on Friday, as that made 7 days exactly... 
I will send another update when I check him at dinner, but I am a little concerned. He had been doing so well on the meds,. started growing and getting more feathers,... I'd just hate to see his progress stalled again. It breaks my heart to hear him begging to be fed when I can plainly see that he has no room!
Just as an aside, I have started feeding my bigger baby some soaked seed, and (dried/boiled) peas and corn, as well as the soaked puppy chow. He is still doing great. I'll be back in a couple of hours.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Let's not panic until you have checked the little one again. Please post when you know what has or hasn't happened.

If you still have some Nystatin left, it's OK to give it for at least another 3 days. I could be wrong, but I'm betting it's the Nystatin that was helping with the crop situation.

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Well, last night he hadn't seemed much better, but this morning his crop had emptied quite a bit. I am pleased that it empied somewhat, but am still a little concerned because it usually empties completely overnight, as I let them go a full 12 hours now without feeding. In the day time I am still feeding 3 times (every 6 hours). I have read in another thread that some folks are only feeding every 8 hours by this age. Maybe I am feeding a little too much, or too often? 
And along those lines, I am giving my big guy seed to pick at, but can't tell if he is eating it, as I have hand fed him some too. Should I expect him to start eating on his own now? Do you suggest feeding him less to encourage him to eat on his own? I understand that this is how they learn from their mothers... she just stops feeding, and then they leave the nest! I am guestimating their age at about 26 days. Please let me know what you think on this as well.
Thanks (again) 
Alea


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alea,

Has the tiny baby been getting any probiotics with his food? If he has been on medication for seven days, he definitely needs it , if he is not getting it.

At 26 days the bigger baby should be eating seeds on his own. Has he drank water by himself yet? If not, encourage him to do so. He should be picking up seeds on his own, try putting it in a deep dish,and leaving it with him all day, that will help. If he has learned to drink water, he does not need soaked seed at this point.
Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Ya know, I don't even know what probiotics are, so I guess the answer would be no. Please expound on that. 
I can't even really be sure if either of them are drinking on their own. I provide water for both of them, and food for the big one, but don't know what, if anything they have consumed. As soon as they see me coming they just beg like crazy,... and they're in their little box with the heating pad all day,... It's just really hard for me to really observe them. When they see me, they just beg. I have dipped their beaks in the water, and they seemed suprised by this but I haven't seen them really drink. I have tried to "fool" them both into eating from a bowl, though... I put soaked puppy chow into a shot glass, and then I grab the sides of their beak as if I were about to put food in their mouths, (and they open their beaks willingly). When they open, I put the shot glass right up to their beaks, and then they will eat. But they don't go back to it if I leave it in the box with them... they wait for me to feed them. I am thinking of putting the big one in the big bird cage I just bought. At least for a few hours in the day time. It seems to me that without his dark little "nest" he might take more of an interest in his surroundings and start to pick seed, if he hasn't already? I'm pretty sure he doesn't need the warmth like the little one does... 
So far, regarding their care I have just been going off of my instincts and your responses. I think it's going good, but suspect I am just being kind of wimpy. I hate to think they're hungry,... and they beg so convincingly,..=)... normally I try to get at least a little bit of food in them before I try to entice them to eat on their own... and I guess that's probably not the smartest way. Please let me know what you think, or what you'd do next. 
I'm still "winging it".
He he he


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Pro biotics aid in digestion, I have used it in the baby formula, or give it to them individually. It supplies the good bacteria that young pigeons need, especially when they are formula fed, and I have never seen any crop problems using it.

You can use Solgar powder and put in the formula, from health food store. Or you can get Pro-biocin that you disperse into their beak every three days. You can get that at Avian pet stores or from Jeffer's Pets.

You should definitely continue to hand feed if the big guy isn't eating enough on his own. 

They are getting older, and the big guy should be showing an interest in seed. I would definitely let them have daylight, put the older one in the cage, well protected from any air drafts, though. They should be observing the great outdoors in the daytime.

Leave the seed and water dish for him when you are not feeding him. Eventually both of them together will get their curiosity going, and they should start picking up seeds, and exploring the world around them.
Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks Treesa. Will stop in the health food store after work. I do leave the big guy seed, water, and soaked puppy chow in his nest-box, and I can tell for certain he is not touching the puppy chow, but he scarfs it when I hand feed it to him. Wish I had a foster momma pigeon. Do you think I should leave him in the cage, even at night? I feel bad not putting him in his nice warm box at "bedtime"... haha. I know the little one still needs to be in the box for awhile. He is still very tiny and half-naked.
Alea


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

No, at night he can sleep comfortably with his nestmate. When the sun sets, it's bed time. Sun up, he should be about his daily activities. 

Sounds like "big guy" wants you to do all the work. I don't blame you, I would rather spoil these babies for awhile, if they are happy and content with you. They had such a traumatic start in this life.

Just keep trying, everyday, move the seed around so he will get interested, and gently tip his beak in the water and let him drink.
Eventually he will eat it, and show the little one how to pick it up.

Yes, it is nice to have adult birds around, because they usually do watch their parents, and start on their own. 

You are doing a terrific job, being their mom! Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks, I will do just that. I really appreciate your insight on this! If you think of anything else I should be doing, please drop me a line.
Alea


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Okay, I went to the health food store, and they aren't carrying Solgar products anymore. I am now on my way to "Birdland". I called them and they said they have some kind of product that has "natural bacteria to aid in digestion" for hand fed babies. I think I am going to just go and buy it, but I would like to hear from someone before I give it to my pij. It is 5:15 p.m. If anyone is on here tonight, please give me a call (if it's not too expensive/inconvenient) so I can ask what you know about this stuff. (I will be up until around 10) I don't know the name of the stuff or I would post it right now,... anyway, I will post it tonight if I don't hear from anyone. Thanks!
Alea 619-454-5948


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I left you a message on your recorder a bit ago. Go ahead and give the probiotics to the babies and start the little one on the Nystatin again. You are doing a tremendous job in raising these two!

Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 02, 2004).]


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks Terry. I did get your message and did as you suggested. I really appreciate the call back. This morning he seemed a whole lot better already. I have also taken advice from Treesa and put my big guy in the cage by the window this morning, (and thank you too) and am also adding the proboitic to their food... should I be doing this at each feeding? Right now I am just doing it once a day. I have taken digi pictures with a friends camera,... just waiting for him to e mail them to me. 
Names... I think I have settled on "Ali" for my little guy.... because he's such a fighter! Still waiting for inspiration on the bug guy. Right now I'm thinking "Noisy" HA HA!!!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea, 

Thanks for the update, and I'm glad little Ali or whatever s/he ends up to be called is doing better already. There should be some instructions with the probiotics that you got as to how much/how often. Unless otherwise indicated in the instructions, I would think once a day is sufficient. Perhaps Treesa can help us out on this.

Can't wait to see the pics!

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Terry,
It just says mix with food so I am assuming it doesn't really matter too much. It doesn't seem like heavy duty stuff or anything. I think I'll do it once or twice a day,.. shouldn't be a big deal.
Ali seems a little better this morning but his crop was still about half full. On your voice mail message you said I could give him the Nystatin until it was gone, right? I still have half the bottle. I just want to clarify, because I think awhile back you also said "3 more days". 
Oh! And one more thing,... 
I know "Noisy" can pretty much eat just seed now, but I still supplement him, handfeeding some seed, a little formula, and some soaked puppy chow. HOWEVER, when I was at the bird store, the manager there suggested a "treat" to encourage him to eat on his own. It was a dried peas/corn mixture. I bought it, and cooked it, and hand fed him a bit, but he never did eat on his own. My concern is this; I think he has a couple pieces of corn in his crop from 2 days ago. (I always feel it to see if he is eating seed) Anyway, I'm a little upset because this woman at the bird store was singing praises about the stuff, and then I think I read in another thread somebody saying not to give corn to pigeons??? Any thoughts on this?
Alea


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Your plan on the probiotics sounds fine. Yes, go ahead and start the Nystatin for little Ali again. I didn't realize there would be so much left, but that is good. Let's go at least another 3 three days of the Nystatin for Ali and also give Noisy a couple of days worth to see if s/he will pass that corn. If it was cooked, I don't understand why it's still in there. When they are older whole corn kernals, like popcorn, are OK but cracked corn can be hard on them because of the sharp edges.

Terry


[This message has been edited by TAWhatley (edited February 04, 2004).]


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Well, I boiled the heck out of it for nearly a half hour, but it was still whole and fairly firm. I could crush them between my fingers, but not without a little effort. It wasn't like corn you or I would eat, nor were the peas. I will do as you suggest, and avoid that stuff in the future.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Alea,


I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner.

Since I don't know what kind of probiotics you bought, you should follow the instructions. But I'm sure you won't have to worry about overdosing, as it is meant for baby birds on formula.

I used to open up a capsule of pro biotics from a company called Infinity, that was for humans. I put about 1/4 of it in each serving of formula, and I increased it as they got bigger, they did fine, never had a problem. 

I think it is extremely important for all baby birds to enable them to survive, especially 1 day old ones, on formula.
Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

I've done the Nystatin for Ali for 2 days, with no marked improvement. It's breaking my heart because I can tell he is starving! When I pick him up he bites at my fingers and even his own feet. I'm so sad. I don't want to have to empty his crop again, but that did seem to start things moving along last time. This morning I just gave him about 5ml of warm water and massaged a bit. I don't know what else to do. At lunch if he is no better I will just give him more water and the medicine, but it's killing me. 
What's up with that baking soda treatment I read about in another thread?? Anyone know anything about that? I'm really getting desperate. And Terry, if it makes any difference in helping to make sure we are properly diagnosing him, he lets me look down into his beak without much struggle, and the tissue looks pink and healthy. Any thoughts???


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This thread seems to be having some technical difficulties, so I am closing it. Please continue in Alea's new thread.

Terry


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