# Found another dead pigeon



## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, just went to the loft to check everyone. Found another dead cock bird. This bird was fine this morning, but dead this afternoon. At least now I have an idea what's going on. I must have an extermely aggressive bird in the loft. My last birds have all been cocks found dead. This bird had bleeding around an eye. I don't know who is causing all of the havoc. I hope I can figure out who the trouble maker is before I lose any more birds. This is hurting so bad, losing my babies.
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Aw Daryl, I sure am sorry. Maggie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

OMG, Daryl, what a tragedy.
Good you know at least what is going on. Hope you figure out who the trouble maker is.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

pigeonmama said:


> Well, just went to the loft to check everyone. Found another dead cock bird. This bird was fine this morning, but dead this afternoon. At least now I have an idea what's going on. I must have an extermely aggressive bird in the loft. My last birds have all been cocks found dead. This bird had bleeding around an eye. I don't know who is causing all of the havoc. I hope I can figure out who the trouble maker is before I lose any more birds. This is hurting so bad, losing my babies.
> Daryl


What an awful situatin you are faced with Daryl. I am so sorry.

Not being familiar with 'loft living', if this *is* an aggressive pij situation & given that both pigeons found dead are cocks, which would be the most likely to be causing the problem, a hen or a cock?

When I moved my guys into their aviary (there's only 7 of them, 3 males & 4 females) Frank & Mikko had a few words with regard to who was going to play head honcho. Thankfully, they came to a peaceful agreement.

Is there someone home during the day that can 'spy' on them to see which one(s) might be getting their feathers ruffled? 
Gosh, I sure hope you are able to get this resolved quickly. 

Cindy


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

It's a horrible thing to happen, Daryl, but it just doesn't sound like the work of another pigeon. 

The blood around the eye could have been caused after the bird died, perhaps?

I cannot imagine how a healthy pigeon would succumb to another pigeon's attack so, apparently, easily  

Is it too late to have the bird examined post-mortem for possible infections?

John


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

John,
These birds are so healthy, I just can't see any signs of infection. The birds I have lost are cock birds, all well fleshed, smooth feathered, get vits., ACV in water, vaccinated. These birds have shown no signs of being ill, they are strutting ther stuff one minute, dead the next. The last and newest cock in the loft is a bit of a bully. He came from the same loft these other birds came from. He is now on eggs with his hen. I don't know if it's him or another bird. There is never any feuding going on when I'm in the loft. If I only knew who the trouble maker is, I'd pen him/her immediately.
Poor Marty is already buried, and I really can't think about having himcut up for study.
Thanks,
Daryl


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Daryl,

I'm so sorry to hear about another tragedy. 

Are the birds in close proximity of the new one (the bully) and his nest and mate? Does he feel they may be tresspassing on his terf?

It would be nice if you could install a video camera/recorder in there so you can see what goes on when you aren't there.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Daryl, 

I'm so very sorry to hear of yet another casualty concerning your beloved, Marty This is such a disaster and heartache for you. I knew I had read something about this before, so I searched by key words and found this:

*According to Dr Marx, classical paratyphoid is common in breeding cocks which can become sick and die very quickly -- the bird is fine one day and dead the next. Hens can become sick in the same way, but this form is more common in cocks*

The information came from this site: http://birdsinwhite.com/articles/article7.html

I know you said your birds have been vaccinating, but have they been for paratyphoid? What struck me the most were your comments that they were fine one day and dead the next and this is one of the only reasons I have heard of for this scenario and it is identical to what has happened for you.

Perhaps you can have some fecal samples tested or start on a flock treatment for paratyphoid.

I just hope that you don't lose anymore birds


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Brad,
Thank you ! Thank you ! Thank you ! No, not fpr parathyphoid, but they will be as soon as I can get meds. Any thing to stop the dying.
Daryl


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Daryl, 

Well don't thank me yet...this may not be your problem but it certainly does sound like it. It also could be the underlying reason that you've lost numerous young in the past as well. I also remember you mentioning a mouse issue in your loft before as well. Do you vaccinate for paratyphoid? 

I hope that this is what is going on only because it makes it easier when you know what you're dealing with. Baytril is one of the best meds for treating paratyphoid but it may not be practical for you with so many birds. 

There is something called "salm-a-bloc" at Foy's that is a natural sugar concoction that is supposed to be effective as a remedy but I wouldn't trust it to cure. Let us know what you decide to treat with because you need to treat all the birds and treat them aggressively in any case. I think I'd feel most reassured if you did treat them all with baytril and then perhaps use something like the salmabloc on a regular basis as a preventative.

There are quite a few products out there and maybe others will have suggestions on something that can be used regularly as a deterrant, other than probiotics, ACV and those regular preventatives. If you have paratyphoid running through your flock though, it's got to be treated hard and fast with the proper drugs and vaccinations. From there, you have to use the things to prevent future outbreaks.

Keep us posted,

P.S-I just wanted to mention as well that the idea/theory of another pigeon doing this, doesn't sit well we me either. I really don't feel that is what's going on here. I agree with John completely that what's happening doesn't seem at all like the work of a bully bird(s).


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Brad,
I started them on Dacox 4 in 1 last night. Give this for 7 days. What do you think ? Had gone to bed, planning on looking up what meds needed when I got up, and just couldn't think, then remembered I had the 4 in 1 in my "pigeon " supply box. This is one of the things it states it's used for. I got right out with some and changed waterers. If you think of any thing else to do/try, anybody, please let me know. Also, Brad, on the parathyphoid vaccine, should I wait til I get through this treatment, then give the vaccine? I have to order the vaccine anyway, so I will have that time span, til vaccine gets here.
Thank you all.
daryl


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Daryl,

My fisrt thoughts went along the same lines as Brad and John, that the pigeon died of paratyphoid and the damage to the eye was post mortem. Is it possible for you to send the body off for a necropsy to establish cause of death?


Cynthia


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Daryl, 

I'm not familiar with or have ever used dacox, I'm sorry. Perhaps other members familiar with this can weigh in on it's effectiveness to treat and cure paratyphoid.

The drugs that are most often mentioned as the "only" drugs that will really eliminate and cure this disease are baytril and/or possibly amoxicillan. Paratyphoid is a tough disease to combat and eradicate and I think it requires the 'big guns" in the medicine chest.

I'm sure it won't hurt to give the birds the 4 in 1 but it may not knock it out but rather suppress the illness for now. If some of your birds are carriers they can have remissions and insufficient drugs may lower the levels of the bacteria but the bacteria have to be removed completely from the body and organs.

Hopefully others will voice their opinions but I really do feel that baytril is in order because I want your birds *cured* and free of this disease so that it won't/can't creep back up again during stress or other illnesses.

After you've treated with the appropriate drugs then you should vaccinate them. From there on out I would find something to use regularly as well such as the Salm-a-bloc I suggested that is natural. Used in combination with the probiotics and ACV, this would be a good safe guard afterwards. Then hopefully after all this, you won't run into this problem again.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Definitely agree about paratyphoid .. Baytril is the drug of choice .. a preventative isn't going to knock it. You need the real thing. I have a thread here somewhere about one of Bart's Hungarian Giants with a severe case of paratyphoid, and aggressive treatment with Baytril resolved it.

Terry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Hello*

Brad,What doseage of amoxi for gallon of water. 250 mg or 500 mg or less? On the ground would pine shaving cause a base or acdl? In the acticule in mentioned antibics for 10 days. Then probotics for how long? Never dealt with so many verirables. Sorry about spelling not my strong point. Thanks Debbie


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sorry*

about your birds. What a terrible thing. This is a tricky disease.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Debbie, 

Do you think you have paratyphoid in your flock? I personally don't recommend giving meds unless it's confirmed or very likely. I hope that Daryl will take some fecal samples to her vet for confirmation as well.

In Daryl's case, it does *seem likely* that paratyphoid is a very strong possibility going by things that have happened in the past, the mice issues and now the cock birds dying for no reason.

The doseage for amoxicillan, according to Foy's for 500mg , is 6 capsules per gallon or 1 tsp (teaspoon) of powder per gallon for 5-7 days. I would treat for the full extent however concerning paratyphoid.

Interestingly however, in cases where one is giving baytril to pigeons to cure and eradicate the disease, it is suggested to give this drug for 21 days. Again, I don't really know if the amoxi treatment time would be enough to actually cure the disease in a pigeon. There is a difference between treating and curing.

As for the probiotics after antibiotics, I would give those for a good 7-10 days afterwards. 

I don't have an answer for you Debbie about the pine shavings and what that might do to the PH of the floor in terms favouring diseases....sorry


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Thank you*

Brad, You have been very helpful. It can be confusing because many people and sites say different things about treatment. And you would think treatment would lead to a cure or why go through a treatment? Is Baytril bought at feed store or Vet Rx? I don't know if my birds have anything. But this is an interesting topic. I use to work for a Vet. and meds and diease interest me.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I agree: Baytril is the best for beating salmonellosis/paratyphoid. Give them the full course and then vaccinate. How many pigeons do you have, Daryl? If not too many, injectable Baytril is highly effective and Foy's has it. If not, the liquid for flock treatment works well, too. Or the tablets. I like to give them an injection initially and follow up with daily tablets (1/4 pill) when treating individuals. But with really sick birds, Baytril injections are most effective. I use an insulin syringe and alternate sides. 

I'm so sorry about the loss of your boys. Hope you won't lose any more.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, no new losses as of tonight. Will order Baytril inject tomorrow. Had to see Dr. today and have labs drawn. Haven't felt good since Fri. morn. Lots of RUQ (right upper quadrant) pain, nausea, itchy back. Dr. worried it was liver. It wasn't. It's SHINGLES !!! And Pidgey was worried about my reflux.
The Dacoxine 4 in 1 is Furaltadone and Ronidazole, for canker, E.Coli Parathyroid and Coccidiosis. I e-mailed Tony Patti from NEPS, to order baytril and vaccine for the parathy.
Right now, I'm longing for bed, and have an idea that's where I'm headed very soon.
Daryl
Again, thank you to the best bunch of friends I could ever hope/wish for.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Sorry, not parathyroid, I meant parathyphoid  
Daryl
Going to bed. Will talk to you all tomorrow.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Hello*

Birdmom and Pigeonmama, Do you know if jedds carries baytril? They are alot closer. Sorry you are not feeling well. Hope you get alot of rest. Hope all is well with the birds.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Oh man, Daryl....Shingles!?! You sure are having one rotten streak of luck these days. It's better than having something wrong with you liver, that's for sure, but I understand shingles "ain't no picnic" either!

Boy, oh boy, hope that you will be feeling better soon, and that you will have no more problems with your birds.

Linda


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry you have your own health problems now. 
I wish you a speedy recovery and all the best for your birdies.

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

God Daryll, what a lot of heartache and troubles for you right now....I'm really sorry to hear about both you and your birds. Just to throw in my two cents, and at at time when you aren't at your best to deal w/it, just a reminder to thoroughly disinfect the loft area, make sure there aren't access issues in the loft beyond the passkey that Mickie seemed to have. 

The thread that Terry was talking about was 'Is this Paratyphoid?'

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9505&highlight=Paratyphoid

The link Terry posted on the topic from Dr. Marx recommended vaccinating during the actual course of antibiotic treatment:

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drdavidmarx/paratyphoid.cfm

And inside Brad's link from Gordon Chalmers, the author writes:

"One of the best if not the actual best is Baytril. The second best product is either Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. Treat for a minimum of 10 days with any of these products, and at the same time, it often helps to vaccinate during treatment." 

Upshot is that you may want to vaccinate during course of treatment.

Hope this helps,

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You're in my prayers, Daryl. What a rotten time to be sick. 

Furaltadone is an older treatment for paratyphoid and will probably help until you get your Baytril.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

FP,

Thanks for posting those links .. hopefully helpful to others.

Terry


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi all,
Heard from Tony Patti. He suggested Trimethoprim/Sulfa. Has any one heard of this stuff? I have some liquid Baytril , so, I'm medicating everyone by hand til I get more meds from Tony. Should be ordering today, as soon as I get more info on that med. I'm planning on going up, covering all mousie assess with screening, and cleaning entire loft, just have to wait for pain to get manageable. Feel like I had thoracic surgery and no pain meds. My shingles (oh, why can't I do things normally) have attacked nerve/nerves in my diaphragm, just one side (thank God), and I feel like a magician's assistant, the lady who gets cut in half, but the magician made a boo-boo. Then there's the shingles on my back. Could sure use a porcupine right now. I'd scrub my back with him.
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Daryl.

Bactrim is Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim. It is a milder antibiotic than Baytril or Itraconazole. Hope this helps. 

BTW, the shingles may start getting better when the blisters appear. I had them years ago and the only thing that finally got rid of them was (I think) vitamin B-12 shots - anyways, it was some kind of shot I had to get every few days for a week or so. The pain can be unbearable. Make sure you don't rub your eyes or mouth particularly when the blisters appear.

maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. Hope you and your birdies will feel better very soon.

If I may add, a regular dose of apple cider vinegar in the water & probiotics in the seed helps get the PH where bad bacteria don't thrive.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Bathing*

with oatmeal might bring a little releif. Also baking soda and water paste on the area. It messy but feels good.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Lost my beautiful Mu-Mu while I was at work. Had started her on p.o. Baytril Wed eve, when she looked "just a little off" Think she was tired of looking for her Marty, and went over the rainbow bridge to look there. Have another sweet little hen that I think will go looking for her Beast tonight, also over the Rainbow Bridge. My meds did not make it here yet, and at the rate I'm going, I won't need them. Won't have any birds to treat.  
Going to bed, pulling covers over my head and crying.
Sad me


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Daryl, 

I'm SO sorry this is happening to you.......this is just awful


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I pray that this "nightmare" yu are having to live comes to a screetching halt! I am SO sorry.

You are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Sorry*

about your birds and illness. It is a heavy burden you are bearing right now. May you cast those cares on him who cares for you. I cry for you too. and pray peace and restoration to you and yours.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Ohhhh, Daryl .. I am so very sorry for the loss of your beloved birds and for your illness and pain. I'm not much of a hugger, but I'd sure give you a big, bad, bear hug about now if it would help.

Terry


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Daryl,

You must be an emotional wreck with all that is going against you. May you have the STRENGTH to nip the problem in the bud, and start over again if you have to. 

I can only imagine a fraction of the pain you are going thru loosing as many pigeons as you did. I only have one, and he is part of our family just as I am sure yours were to you. I am so sorry.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Daryl, I'm so very, very sorry. My heart goes out to you.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Oh Daryl...this is so very sad to hear. I can't tell you how sorry I feel that you are having to go through such a terrible time. I don't know how much good it will do the situation at hand, but please know that you have so many of us here thinking of you with care and concern. Again, I'm so sorry.

Linda


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh Daryl, it is most difficult to even hear about what you are going through right now, let alone be walking through it. I can't tell you enuf how sorry I am about your own health and that of all your loved ones. I hope that something breaks for you and that things begin to reverse shortly.

Best thoughts, wishes, hopes,

fp


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

My paratyphoid vaccine and new atbx. still didn't get here in Friday's mail. I'm hoping it gets here today (Sat) What would you do when med comes? Should I give the birds a few days on new atbx then vaccinate, or vaccinate and start new atbx same day? Also, is dose 0.25 ml as it is for PMV vaccine? I will be sending next bird out for post mortem. Any idea as to cost? How do I prep a bird for shipping? Tony from NEPS just send a young bird out for P-M, so I'll most likely ship to whomever he sent his bird to. Thank you all for your support, I do appreciate it. The pain of losing each little life is almost more than I can bear.
Daryl


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Daryl, 

Again, I'm so sorry you have to deal with all this death right now on top of not being well yourself.  

I'm glad you've decided to send this latest bird to have a necropsy performed. I think the cost is a little high....in the vacinity of $200-$300 but I'm not positive. Also, prices are a little diffferent here than in the US. If you could as well, could you have some droppings tested by whomever? Foy's will even do fecal tests relatively cheap. 

As for what to do with the new antibiotics when they come, I feel you should start them on it right away, treat aggressively and for a good 21 days with the baytril. It's been suggested that vaccinating should take place at the same time as drug treatment so maybe this is best. After a lengthy course of antibiotics, probiotics are a must. 7-10 days of replenishing the cultures with probos is very, VERY important too.

Others will have more definitive instructions on what to do exactly with the baytril and vaccinations.

Please take care of yourself,


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Daryl,

I am so, so sorry you have to go through this.
I hope and pray things will look up for you again really soon.

Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Brad,
The Sulfa/Trimethoprim is what I'll be using, as soon as it gets here, hopefully today. This is what Tony from NEPS recommended. I was using p.o. Baytril on Mu and it didn't save her. Beauty is still alive as of this morning, but I did lose a baby during the night. I knew that I'd lose this baby, just much smaller than sib, and not looking well last night. Everyone else looking fine. Tater Bug kept landing on my chest and looking at me like he was saying "Don't cry mama. Things will turn around" This little bird is so persistent, wants my attention, and dances for me. Lets me know I'm his girlfriend.
Do any of you know dosage on the P-typh vaccine? It's 0.25 ml for PMV as I have small birds.
Daryl


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Oh, another thing, any one remember which thread has names, phone numbers of avian vets by state?
Daryl


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Daryl,

I don't know for sure about the timing of treatment and vaccination, but I would think the concept is that when the treatment is well underway, you'd give the vaccination to ensure that once off there isn't an opportunity for relapse/reinfection. Again, this isn't fact, more in the category of musing.
Hopefully someone will jump in with more information.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Was just checking my notes to make sure.
The Sal Bac vaccine is an inactivated vaccine, in which case I wouldn't give it during antibiotic treatment. The antibiotic could kill the inactivated bacteria and make the vaccine ineffective (it wouldn't circulate enough time in the body to generate antibodies)

As for the dose of Sal Bac:

inject 0.5 ml w/small gauge needle subcutaneous at the base of the neck and midline at the levels of the shoulders in direction away from the neck.
Draw slightly syringe plunger prior to injection to ensure that delivery is not into the blood vessel

Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Was just checking my notes to make sure.
> The Sal Bac vaccine is an inactivated vaccine, in which case I wouldn't give it during antibiotic treatment. The antibiotic could kill the inactivated bacteria and make the vaccine ineffective (it wouldn't circulate enough time in the body to generate antibodies)
> 
> As for the dose of Sal Bac:
> ...


Hi Reti,

When articles recommend using vaccine simultaneously w/treatment, do you know which vaccine they are referring to? And if you do, is that a vaccine that is available through Pij Supply Houses, or only through vet??

Thanks,

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi fp,

the killed vaccines would not interfere with antibiotic treatment, especially if they are viral vaccines, like pox vaccine and PMV vaccine. Those can be safely given with antibiotics.
As for the Sal Bac, my guess would be you could give antibiotics but not the ones that target the salmonella
Something to think about is that humans you don't vaccinate when ill, I don't know why they would recommend it in pigeons.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pigeonmama,

According to the formulary, there's not much difference in birds as to the efficacy of Enrofloxacin vs. Ciprofloxacin. The dosages are a tad different. If you can get your hands on a 500 mg. Cipro capsule and powderize it, you can dissolve or suspend it in a cup of water and then administer 1 - 1/2 tsp of that blend (shake well) per bird going on the idea that your birds weigh about 1 pound. If it's a 750 mg pill, then dissolve in a cup and a half. Adjust by weight of the birds if it's significant. That's a BID or twice daily dose, by the way. I haven't found anything to say, but it would probably be best to pitch the unused portion after a day. So if you can "part out" the pill by making a line (like people do with cocaine) out of it and then separating that into four sections, you can then use those in separate batches to make a pill go further.

For avian vets:

www.aav.org

And these are those listed:

H. Opitz
Univ. of Maine 5735 Hitchner Hall Rm 105
Orono, ME 04469
Phone: 207 581-2771 

Dana Hall
2239 Intervale Rd
Bethel, ME 04217

That would only include the avian vets who are members of the Association of Avian Veterinarians.

Godspeed,

Pidgey


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks, Pidgey,
Just to let you all know, Beauty is looking better. She's flying, preening, eating and drinking. We've started new med. Will treat them all, then vaccinate after finishing full treatment. I am pooped out, believe me. Have a good friend here today, and when I told her about all of my pigeon friends, she gave me the biggest hug and said it was from all of you and her too.
I will keep you updated, and hope I don't lose any birds to post, as I can't afford the post at this time, financially or emotionally.
Daryl


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

One more thing you should know, Daryl, is that Sal-Bac makes the pigeons feel a little ill. Mine didn't even coo the morning after I gave them the first round of Sal-Bac vaccinations and their appetites were down, which would have been disconcerting if I hadn't been warned to expect it. But they quickly bounced back and were their old selves within a couple days. 

I wondered, too, about the dose. The instructions from the manufacturer say 0.5 ml per bird, but I have some small pigeons, though not as small as yours. (You have Figueritas, right?) I called the manufacturer and their vet called me back. He said that ideally they should have the full 0.5 ml even if they are small, but that if I was worried about ill effects from the vaccine I could actually give it to them in a couple doses. I didn't do this because it would have meant four shots instead of two. You know, you do the initial vaccination and then you have to do a booster 3-4 weeks later for best results. I cut the dose down a little for smaller birds and we still had good results--no new cases of Salmonellosis.

Again, I'm so sorry about what you are going through. I'm praying for your health and that of your birds.


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks, Birdmom,
I have one baby in the loft, still being cared for by parents, but should be waened by the time I can vaccinate. Going to be a self white, hopefully a cock, to replace Bianca's dead mate.
I'm pulling any eggs in the loft, and replacing with fakes. That way, my birds won't be stressing to feed babies, and I can vaccinate eeryone at one time. There will be plenty of babies next year, I hope. And everyone will be so full of vaccines that no germ or virus will survive within miles of here.
Daryl


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You are wise to pull the eggs. They don't need the added stress of raising babies. Also they are probably molting, or about to. If my pigeons are going to get sick, it's when they are molting or raising babies. Now I don't allow any babies while they are molting. 

After a course of Baytril and vaccinations you should be in good shape for next year. We had a salmonella problem a few years ago, or at least that's what I believe it was, based on the symptoms. Didn't lose any adult pigeons, but most of our babies died. I put them all on Baytril for two weeks and then vaccinated. We do yearly boosters (the instructions say 6 months, but my vet told me the vaccines actually give immunity for longer than they can say on the package) and so far we haven't had a problem with it again. I also vaccinate any new pigeons I get. 

Best of luck to you Daryl, and try not to get discouraged. I've had some very low points with my pigeons where I just wanted to give up and get rid of them, but ultimately they were all learning experiences. And I know I can't really give them up 'cause I couldn't imagine my life without them.  

One thing does strike me, though. I've heard old-timers say things were easier in the old days of pigeon keeping. I have to wonder if disease strains are worse now or what. 

I had pigeons for about five years, from ages 13-18, so that was a _loooong_ time ago. We didn't have a proper loft, but a drafty aviary. We lived in the mountains and experienced severe winter storms, even occasional snow. Looking back, my aviary was over-crowded. I pulled eggs when we had too many pigeons and didn't know to replace them with wooden eggs, so my hens laid all the time. Yet they were never sick! I never had to take a pigeon to the vet in those days, though we would have, because we treated all our pets with the same standard of care. I didn't know what trich was, or coccidiosis. I had no idea you could vaccinate pigeons for anything, though I don't think our modern vaccines were even available at that time. All I gave them was pigeon mix, pigeon grit and water. And I never lost a single bird. Now, although my pigeons are generally healthy, I spend hundreds of dollars a year trying to keep them that way and we still have several illnesses each year.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Birdmom4ever said:


> We didn't have a proper loft, but a drafty aviary. We lived in the mountains and experienced severe winter storms, even occasional snow. Looking back, my aviary was over-crowded. I pulled eggs when we had too many pigeons and didn't know to replace them with wooden eggs, so my hens laid all the time. Yet they were never sick! I never had to take a pigeon to the vet in those days, though we would have, because we treated all our pets with the same standard of care. I didn't know what trich was, or coccidiosis. I had no idea you could vaccinate pigeons for anything, though I don't think our modern vaccines were even available at that time. All I gave them was pigeon mix, pigeon grit and water. And I never lost a single bird. .


Hi Birdmom, 

I remember things exactly this way myself when I was a kid with my homers. They didn't have the best loft, they were only given seed and water, I never medicated or knew what to do even if they needed meds but they were never sick either. A cat killed most of mine but they didn't get/weren't ever sick. 

I have no doubt, with all the medicating that's gone on over the years, the excessive use of antibiotics and other drugs with pigeons, animals and even humans, that it's made things worse in the long run. Virus and bacteria have a very quick way of adapting and mutating to suit their needs. They seem to be a lot quicker at this than we can make new medicines to combat them. In the end, they come back more viralent, stronger and harder to eliminate


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am so sorry, Daryl!

Karen in the UK had something similar happen in her aviary, it is a heartbreaking situation. In her case the deaths stopped as suddenly as they started, I do hope that the same happens in your case.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Reti said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> the killed vaccines would not interfere with antibiotic treatment, especially if they are viral vaccines, like pox vaccine and PMV vaccine. Those can be safely given with antibiotics.
> As for the Sal Bac, my guess would be you could give antibiotics but not the ones that target the salmonella
> ...


I don't have the background that you have, so I would defer. And, before your response, of course defer to the other two that are supposed to be well respected avian vets. It is true, however, that many times what is not permissable for humans in the way of medical care, becomes permissable for animals which is something to consider in all of this. I would love to know what went into the rationale for both of them in recommending it, however. 
Guess we may never know.


fp


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Just wanted to let you know, I haven't lost any more birds, and Beauty is beginning to act more like her old self, preening, eating, trying to untie my sneakers. Hopefully, I've got everything under control now. I just wish I'd figured it out a bunch of birds ago. The worst loss was my Mu-Mu. She was the friendliest bird in the loft, my baby girl. Thankfully, her mom, Beauty, will survive, and after getting a new mate, will give me more beautiful birds. I also have a baby from Mu-Mu and Marty, named Ming. Just to remind, I also lost Marty, and Mu's father , Beast.
Oh, a crazy question. I'm going to put up hardware cloth along all floor/wall ceiling joinings inside the loft and all along any places outside that a mouse has a chance to crawl through. Would moth balls be too toxic to throw in ceiling before I enclose everything? I'll do any thing I have to do safely to keep those little monsters out of my loft.  
Daryl


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Daryl, 

I'm glad that to hear that you've had no more losses. Did you get the vaccine yet? 

Sorry, I don't know about the moth balls and whether they are safe or not. Sounds like you're taking a really aggressive stance though in getting things under control in your loft....very glad to hear that


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Daryl,

That is good news and I'm sure your feeling much relieved. Hope it keeps going in the upswing direction. 

Don't know about mothballs, but there are "gadgets" you can buy that operate on battery and emit a sound that rodents don't like. Will keep them away through deterence. Most garden and hardware stores keep them. Had a customer that had roof rats and used them and had great success keeping them away. Call around and see if you can find someone who carries it.

Best,

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I read that mothballs are on the list, under anything that gives off fumes.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1912&articleid=3310


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Daryl,
I the fumes from the mothballs are toxic, to humans and animals.


Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Brad,
Got the vaccine yesterday, but some conflicting info as to giving vaccine during treatment, so I think while things are looking up, I'll complete treatment with antibiotic, give a few days of probiotics, then vaccine the heck out of dem birds. Boy the weren't happy when they got the PMV. vaccine and that was only 0.25 ml. This time I have to give them 0.5 ml.
Daryl


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