# Pigeon loft



## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

Dear Friends


Fancy pigeon breeding loft from Kuwait "Almorshad's pigeon loft"

Regards


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Now that's a loft. What breed(s) do they have?


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## red check 200 (Jul 3, 2011)

That's not a loft that's confinement!! Not much of a life!!!


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You are aware that there are literally millions of birds who are born, raised, bred, raise young, and die, all within the confines of a cage. Whether they are canarys, finches, parakeets, cockatiels, all breeds of parrots, doves, pigeons, etc. Whether they are raised in small cages, large cages, aviaries, lofts, barns, or whatever, they are in some form of confinement. Some birds like homers, rollers, tipplers, and other performing breeds are lucky enough to be let out to fly. But when they are done performing, they are confined to keep them safe.

Others such as Fantails, Jacobins, and many others would not survive long if let loose. Doves are another species that should never be released.

Many birds are allowed to fly in the owners home. But even this is a form of confinement. Birds that are raised in cages *do not* know the difference. In fact, birds kept in cages that escape have been known to hurt themselves because they literally do not know what to do. It's just a fact of life. If the minimum space requirements per bird are met, the cages are clean and the birds get fresh food and water, vet care, etc. they are not being harmed per se. The only thing I see missing is a chance for natural sunlight.


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## Vova (Mar 27, 2012)

Poor birds i hope they don't have to stay in those cells too long


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Hey, hey! stop. Look when birds are kept in a cage they get used to it. They think it is home after a while. You may think its small and terrible, but the birds might think its paradise. Food, space requirements met, water, clean cage, maybe even a fly once in a while. The thing is we are not the birds & we don't think like them, so know one can't really know what's it like. And that is an uptight loft. Must have beautiful pigeon breeds from what I can see, keep up the good work!


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

Is there a certain light bulb that can be used for sunlight? I think they use them to grow weed. We have to have a special bulb for our iguana and if you don't use it it will not grow.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Shadybug Lofts said:


> Is there a certain light bulb that can be used for sunlight? I think they use them to grow weed. We have to have a special bulb for our iguana and if you don't use it it will not grow.


I'm sorry but I have no experince for lizzards, but for pigeons in the winter they need about 14 hours of 'sunlight' for them to lay. That is all I can say sorry. There is a type of bulb but I can't remember the name


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Shadybug - Yes, there are special lights used to grow weed. How do you know about them? I'm not sure they take the place of sunlight, but they come very close. I think the concern is for vitamin D production for pijjies???? And I guess I can accept the story about your lizard.


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## sdymacz (Aug 30, 2010)

Solar simulators are close to natural sunlight Full Spectrum they have visible purple to blueish light, UV and Infrared, they are used in labs for testing products and as therapy for sleep disorders. When used for therapy these lights have a filter to block some UV. Solar simulator have lamps that include use of xenon, metal halide, l.e.d. and quartz tungsten halogen.

Broad or wide spectrum have visible light with little or no UV.

Grow lights have a particular color for the photosynthesis, You can buy a high output fluorescent bulbs, blue is cool white at 6500k for foliage and red is warm white at 3000k for flowers and fruits, use them in pairs this way they create close to wide spectrum light. Cycles are 24 hours, 20hrs and 16hrs, at 12hrs the plants start going dormant. Natural light goes thru color cycles as the seasons change.

Reptile lights have UVB, this produces Vitamin 3D in iguanas, without it they become sick and die. Sunlight has 6-8% UVB, reptile bulbs 5-7% UVB. Light position over iguana 12-18" change every 6-8 months even when they look like they are working they loose strength. There are also screw in bulbs that offer heat and UVB those are used in breeding facility's at the zoos, those lights work great last longer and only have to power one.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Instead of making the loft look like a factory of some sort, why not add a few windows (glass and all) to one end of the wall and let natural sunlight come through?

Add a few indoor plants for oxygen, add a few toys and wooden perches in the cages so the birds have something play with... instead of them staring at the bars all day.

It's the QUALITY of life that matters.

In cages and lofts, these birds are well fed and their health is taken care of, so we just need to make their lives a little more exciting by providing these little things. It won't cost much for a few indoor plants and perches. 

The point is to treat every living thing with respect.


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

From indoor growing I know grow lights. The cool white floro. produces a very small amount of UV but no way near enough for vitamin D production. Metal halide is about the same as cool white just produces alot more lumens for you power being used. The 12 mark for plants going dormant is wrong. It truely depends on type of plant. If you are growing lettuce in the house you only need 10-12 hours of light. Longer light periods make it stop growing and flower. The weed that was mentioned slows growth and starts flowering when the light goes below 12 hours. That is 2 different types of plants. One is a spring early summer bloomer and the other is a fall blooming plant. Never thought my plant and soil science college courses would be used in a pigeon forum, LOL.

The pigeons need a UV bulb like the reptile bulb if they can not get alteast 6 hours of natural light. For parrots we use the same bulb you use for reptiles as long a it is not the heat and uv bulb.

As to the confinement, I agree they need to have room to stretch there wings a bit more. If they are allowed to fly in the whole space from time to time then hey would be fine. For a pair of pigeons I think the minuim cage space should 4 feet cubed. Like I keep fantails in a 3 feet tall 3 feet from front to back but 6 foot long. 2 pair share this pen with a nest on each end. they need room to move around.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

With my pigeon we have our loft inside the barn so to bring in sunlight we open the barn door. Are loft is quite big considering we only have 2 pigeons


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## Shadybug Lofts (Mar 13, 2010)

I said that because it looks like there is lights in the cages or is it just the way the picture looks.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If they are kept in those cages all the time, then it is awful. No one can say that they are happy like that. I don't care if they don't know anything else. That is not even having a life. That is being treated like a thing, not a living creature. All living animals and birds need to be able to move around and do things other than stand there in a cage and be used for breeding. Pigeons have minds and are smart, and they have nothing for enrichment. Just stand there and breed. Anyone who can try and justify that, is viewing them as not having a brain or needs. That's sad.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

red check 200 said:


> That's not a loft that's confinement!! Not much of a life!!!


I'm inclined to agree with you !!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

whytwings said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you !!


Thank you. I'm glad someone else doesn't look at a pigeon as an inanimate thing, with no wants or needs...............or brains.


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## red check 200 (Jul 3, 2011)

*I See Who's Who Now*



Jay3 said:


> If they are kept in those cages all the time, then it is awful. No one can say that they are happy like that. I don't care if they don't know anything else. That is not even having a life. That is being treated like a thing, not a living creature. All living animals and birds need to be able to move around and do things other than stand there in a cage and be used for breeding. Pigeons have minds and are smart, and they have nothing for enrichment. Just stand there and breed. Anyone who can try and justify that, is viewing them as not having a brain or needs. That's sad.


THANK YOU GLAD OTHER PEOPLE SEE THIS .. THIS IS TOTALY WRONG TO TREAT A LIVING THING LIKE THAT!! THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY... I'M DONE WITH THIS TOPIC


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Drama, Drama, Drama!

You all have jumped on the bandwagon that this is a terrible life for these birds without knowing anything about the actual operation. The picture was posted without any other information. Based on the picture alone, there is *no way* that any of us know what the story is behind the picture. 

The birds are obviously healthy. The cages look big enough for the birds to move around and stretch their wings. The cages are clean(cleaner than some I have seen in albums on PT), there appears to be food and water offered. The room itself is very clean and well lit. It is a great looking"loft" in the terms of the birds being well cared for and having their"immediate"needs met.

*If this is permanent housing then there are concerns.* *But we don't know that!!* I appreciate all the concerns stated, and I would share them if they were based on facts that are not presented here.

We don't know if it's a quarantine room for new birds, a breeder room, or whatever. Please do not make judgement calls, or act out against others, based solely on a picture.

As far as seeing who's who, some of you need to post with facts in hand, not with emotions only. If my views cause anyone to think less of me, so be it. At least my views are based on just the picture, and not based on ideas not in evidence.


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## Miss-Sassypants (Sep 25, 2010)

Almondman, no way we'd ever think less of you. Krikky and I still love ya! Hugs!

It's just another day in the drama of Pigeon Biz.. hehe..


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Miss-Sassypants said:


> Almondman, no way we'd ever think less of you. Krikky and I still love ya! Hugs!
> 
> It's just another day in the drama of Pigeon Biz.. hehe..


Thank you Miss-Sassypants. Just another episode of As The Pigeon Turns.
How are you and Krikky today?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> Drama, Drama, Drama!
> 
> You all have jumped on the bandwagon that this is a terrible life for these birds without knowing anything about the actual operation. The picture was posted without any other information. Based on the picture alone, there is *no way* that any of us know what the story is behind the picture.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone has jumped on any band wagon. What some are saying is that if they are kept in these cages, that it wasn't a good life for them. And most of those comments came after your original comment where you made it sound as if there was nothing wrong with keeping birds like that, if indeed they were. I know many others see it as just fine to confine birds this way, but many others do not. Just because they disagree, they are jumping on a band wagon?
_________________________This is part of your original comment


Many birds are allowed to fly in the owners home. But even this is a form of confinement.* Birds that are raised in cages do not know the difference. In fact, birds kept in cages that escape have been known to hurt themselves because they literally do not know what to do.* It's just a fact of life. If the minimum space requirements per bird are met, the cages are clean and the birds get fresh food and water, vet care, etc. they are not being harmed per se. The only thing I see missing is a chance for natural sunlight.
_____________________________________________________________

You made the statement that birds raised in cages don't know the difference. You can't possibly know that. You can't possibly know what it is that they are feeling. Or the stress they are in. And as far as them hurting themselves because they don't know what to do if they should escape, well, people who are incarcerated for long periods of time react the same way. That doesn't mean that being caged for ever doesn't cause them harm. If anything, it shows that it _does_. According to your post, you feel that if *minimum* space requirements per bird are met, vet care, etc. then there is no harm in doing this to an animal. I find it sad that so many people feel this way. That it is not wrong for any animal to live their life in a cage of *minimum space requirement*, (as decided by man, by the way. Not the animal.) No animal or other living creature was made to live this way. You seem to forget that these creatures also have a brain. But I think the posters who felt that if they are kept this way all the time, had every right to voice their opinions also. And no, we don't know that they _are_ kept like this all the time, but many were saying that _if they are_..............
All have a right to their opinions...............even those who don't agree with yours.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

almondman said:


> Drama, Drama, Drama!
> 
> You all have jumped on the bandwagon that this is a terrible life for these birds without knowing anything about the actual operation. The picture was posted without any other information. Based on the picture alone, there is *no way* that any of us know what the story is behind the picture.
> 
> ...


I Agree...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay3 - I went back and re-read some of your posts. You, and the others sharing your opinions, can not say those birds are unhappy, anymore than I can say they are. I can say that they are in a clean environment, have food and water, do not have to be in fear of any predators, and do not look abused in any way. I can say, as already stated, that there are literally millions of birds kept in very similar conditions as these, and no one makes any outcrys about them. Is it right or wrong. Not for me to judge. It's just a fact of life. I wonder how many that belong to PT also have cage birds like canaries, finches, cockatiels etc. that are kept in similar settings. This is alright in your mind? For most people it is because these birds have the basic needs that I described above. 

I am sorry to have crossed swords with you and the others with a like mindset. We obviously are at an impass. Again, I agree that they could, and maybe should, have sunlight, windows, and a few other luxuries, but they are not, in my mind, being abused. 


*And for the record, I do not look at pigeons as inanimate things, with no wants, no needs, or no brains. That statement was uncalled for.*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> Jay3 - I went back and re-read some of your posts. You, and the others sharing your opinions, can not say those birds are unhappy, anymore than I can say they are.
> 
> Well, being in a cage 24/7, and I am only saying that if they were, of course they aren't happy. What's to be happy about? Not being able to do anything but stand there. Can't collect nesting materials, or move around.
> 
> ...


Well then, if you feel it was uncalled for, then how do you feel that a bird being caged 24/7 is having its wants or it's brain considered? It's needs are met, and that is about it. We will have to agree to disagree. But it is just as okay for us to comment on our feelngs and beliefs on it, as it is for you to do that. We won't change the way you see things and you won't change the way we see it.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

How would you have known that they are in there 24/7? Tell me that and I'll agree with you. But as Almondman had said We don't know that they can't collect nesting material/ fly around/play. The one that had started this thread had only showed a photo, so Don't make accusation against him! You really don't know anything about the loft. This is absolutly rediculous, considering this is all based upon a photo. We really don't know anything 'bout the birds, and how they are treated, please be clam about this and stop the argueing, please!

Lucas


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

We will have to agree to disagree. 
You have no way of knowing when a bird is happy, any more than I do. You are subjecting your ideals on what makes a bird happy onto others that may have a totally different concept on the subject. Neither are necessarily wrong, as neither may be right. I do know that you can tell if a bird is stressed(unhappy)by its behavior, it's body language, whether it is eating and drinking, loose stool, etc. In the absence of these symptoms, I would guess that the birds are not stressed(unhappy) There are experiments done to verify this at the UW, Madison, that I was lucky enough to have worked on.

I do think there is a bit of hypocrisy in all of this. We are arguing about something that is so subjective that it is almost impossible to find any correct answer.There are so many practices that occur when keeping pigeons/doves that could make pigeons unhappy. Forced matings, forced nest box assignments, forced housing for doves, forced overcrowding because people have "oops" baby's, or breed more babies than their loft can support. 

At what point does a cage, loft, aviary, become the right size. What determines this, or who? What factors come into play before _you_ accept that a pigeon will be "happy". *How do you know. I sure don't.* As red check 200 said, I'm done with this topic.

Sorry pigeon-lover0, I didn't see your post.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

It's ok but I think it's a good loft


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## egpigeon (Jan 15, 2008)

ok, I'll give some important information about the wither in Kuwait

In Kuwait. the wither is too hot it may up to 50 c in the shade (any life 'll die)

so they build a closed lofts with air conditioners to keep the temperature around 25 c

many birds were imported from cold countries and they can not life in Kuwait (open air)

so what do you think? let them die or keep them in a conditioner loft?
Regards


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you for this information. That clears up a lot. Are the birds allowed out of the cages to fly in the room?

As you can see from the earlier posts, this has caused quite a discussion here. Can you give us any more information to help us understand? Thank you!


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

lol, never open your mouth untill you know the facts...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

The average temps in Kuwait average from 46 to 64 degree f. in winter, and 84 to 113 in the summer. 
Besides, what we said was that if they were kept like that all the time, then it was a lousy quality of life. We didn't say they were, as we don't know for certain. Why they are in there, whether because of hot temp conditions of what ever is not the issue. The issue is quality of life in a small cage. And that doesn't change. Even if you find out that they are let out, which I doubt, it still doesn't change what we said. You, for some reason are having a problem with an opinion that differs from yours. That's interesting. Because I really don't care if you think it's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But so do we. 
Thought you were done with this thread.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

billyr70 said:


> lol, never open your mouth untill you know the facts...


Don't what this has to do with anything.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

I think what he is trying to say is don't make accusations until you know all the facts.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

pigeon-lover0 said:


> I think what he is trying to say is don't make accusations until you know all the facts.


We didn't make accusations. We said *if *they were kept in a cage 24/7 it was a lousy life. We didn't say that we knew that guy did that.
l We simply said* if* they were. And that when someones does keep birds that way. Pretty clear what we are saying. Don't know why a few are twisting what we said. Don't even understand what the argument is.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> The average temps in Kuwait average from 46 to 64 degree f. in winter, and 84 to 113 in the summer.
> Besides, what we said was that if they were kept like that all the time, then it was a lousy quality of life. We didn't say they were, as we don't know for certain. Why they are in there, whether because of hot temp conditions of what ever is not the issue. The issue is quality of life in a small cage. And that doesn't change. Even if you find out that they are let out, which I doubt, it still doesn't change what we said. You, for some reason are having a problem with an opinion that differs from yours. That's interesting. Because I really don't care if you think it's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But so do we.
> Thought you were done with this thread.


Why do you continue to beat on me. *I was not addressing you in any manner, shape, or form.*. You need to go back to my last post and re-read it. egpigeon gave us information and I thanked *HIM* for it. I then asked *HIM* for more information because I was curious. I said nothing to you, about you, or anything about our difference of opinion!! I only mentioned that there had been a discussion.

And *DO NOT* ever attempt to question me about my right to repost to any thread I want to. You are so blasted worried about having your rights, don't ask me about my rights to repost. I don't know what has gotten up your backside, but enough is enough. You beat on me here and SamanthaBrooke on another thread for not getting back to you as soon as YOU thought she should, and then you question egpigeons knowledge about the climate where he lives.

For some reason you think you can browbeat anyone who doesn't meet your expectations or agree with you. Even after most of us have now moved past our disagreement. Get over yourself.


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## pigeon-lover0 (Apr 1, 2012)

Jay3 said:


> We didn't make accusations. We said *if *they were kept in a cage 24/7 it was a lousy life. We didn't say that we knew that guy did that.
> l We simply said* if* they were. And that when someones does keep birds that way. Pretty clear what we are saying. Don't know why a few are twisting what we said. Don't even understand what the argument is.


But you still didn't have to pick on him on this thing, making him feel bad about his loft. It it still seemed like you were no offence, but it was uneccasary to bring this up as it was mean to do. I understand that you may have thought it was bad. 

We don't really know as of he didn't post much information. He did tell the temp. but not if they were able to fly inside the loft. And I agree with Alondman.

If they were let out why would this not change your opinion because you said being kept in a cage is a lousy life, and when you find out they arn't and it dosen't matter? Why? I don't understand your point your view. ANd you never really knwo if there are toys or not because he only had a picture of part of the loft.

This matter should be over with and tempers shoould calm down as mine is, because I really think this thing is kid-like and foolish to be fighting like this.
*END OF MATTER FOR ME*


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

almondman said:


> Why do you continue to beat on me. *I was not addressing you in any manner, shape, or form.*. You need to go back to my last post and re-read it. egpigeon gave us information and I thanked *HIM* for it. I then asked *HIM* for more information because I was curious. I said nothing to you, about you, or anything about our difference of opinion!! I only mentioned that there had been a discussion.
> 
> And *DO NOT* ever attempt to question me about my right to repost to any thread I want to. You are so blasted worried about having your rights, don't ask me about my rights to repost. I don't know what has gotten up your backside, but enough is enough. You beat on me here and SamanthaBrooke on another thread for not getting back to you as soon as YOU thought she should, and then you question egpigeons knowledge about the climate where he lives.
> 
> For some reason you think you can browbeat anyone who doesn't meet your expectations or agree with you. Even after most of us have now moved past our disagreement. Get over yourself.


I wasn't trying to beat on you. I really wasn't. Sorry if you took it that way.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

99 percent of the people on PT also want what is best for the birds, i think people shouldn't open there mouth with negative comments when we really don't know the facts..... A lot of people purchase older birds for breeding and cant let them out and they call them prisoners, does that make them awful people??? As long as the prisoners have a clean healthy loft and a nice aviary to fly and stretch out in, i think its ok but not ideal.. I see nothing wrong with the loft and will not make assumptions based on negative thoughts...... JUST relax, i love everyone.


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## Greek Boy (Apr 12, 2010)

Billyr7o-Well said my friend - yours in sport - Nick.. ps- loved your short video.


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## billyr70 (Jun 11, 2009)

Greek Boy said:


> Billyr7o-Well said my friend - yours in sport - Nick.. ps- loved your short video.


Thank you Nick.


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