# pellets and feeding



## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

Hi all,
Me again  

Icarus does not eat very well. He leaves a lot of his food. I'm feeding a mix from the pet shop, and he mainly eats the canada peas and pop corn. He leaves most everything else. never touches the barley or safflower or milo. He's skinny, not plump the way i like a bird to be.

I'm thinking of switching to pellets. This would eliminate his picking and choosing, and also enable me to use popcorn as a treat. Anyone use pellets? What brand do you recommend?

Also, his thin state makes me wonder if he may have parasites, being a feral rescue. Should I treat him for worms? My vet charges $50!!!  to do a fecal on my dogs, so I'd rather not have to take in a sample if I can get away with it. If I do worm him, what do I use?

Thanx!


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Pigeons are like this. Give him some time to gain weight. Vitamins and minerals, iodated charcoal, whole wheat bread, probiotic, sun and exercise. All this things help them to improve appetite. I have pigeons eating like pigs, others that choose seeds by color, shape and size. 
Use pellets as addition, as your pigeon is not used to this kind of food and it may make his condition worse.
Worming is a good idea and will do no harm if you use right dosage. For prophylactic treatment for worms and canker you don’t need testing. Rather use money to buy medicines.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Yes, he should be wormed, as more than likely he does have some worms. Taking a sample in for the vet to check doesn't always show the worms. Go to Foy's, or some other pigeon supply, and order something for worms. People use different things. Invermectin, Wazine, Moxidectin, pyrantel. There are many different kinds.


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## mb5322 (May 10, 2009)

You can send a fecal sample to foys pigeon supplies.com and they will do an analysis for free.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

flyingrat said:


> Hi all,
> Me again
> 
> Icarus does not eat very well. He leaves a lot of his food. I'm feeding a mix from the pet shop, and he mainly eats the canada peas and pop corn. He leaves most everything else. never touches the barley or safflower or milo. He's skinny, not plump the way i like a bird to be.
> ...


I have doves in the house and this feed is really good..link 
http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/products/hpf.html

I added a bit to their seed diet a bit every day till it was all pellet, they eat it just fine, I do give treats of safflower and black oil sunflower, or millet sprays, but you can chose the treats. I have three doves so they get only one tablspoon seeds as a treat. I use the high potency fine, the course I think is too big. they look so healthy, better than when they came to me. It may take some time to transfer it over from seed you just have to do it slowly and you can waste some at first, the thing to do is just feed him like twice a day, 1oz x two times a day, up that if he eats all of it, a few seeds left would be perfect.But take up the dish after say 20 mins, don't feed him untill the next feeding do the same thing. he will be hungry when you go to feed him and eat more of what is in his crock, and then just slowly add the pellet diet in with the seeds, use his favs for the treats to teach him to come to you or go in the cage, what ever your wanting. when it is all pellet you could go back to free feeding the pellets and he will/should still want is favorite seed treats.


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## Glyn (Jun 29, 2009)

can you use spartix as a wormer ????


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mb5322 said:


> You can send a fecal sample to foys pigeon supplies.com and they will do an analysis for free.


There have been lots of people that were not too impressed with foys fecal tests. Besides just the simple test isn't really enough. I'd want to do a culture also.
But I agree with plamenh, spend the money on the worm and canker medicine. They all need worming.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

with a feral what jay says would be wise, then you can medicate him with the proper meds if he needs any, which Im sure he will, deworming and or antibiotics if need be, it is something you won't have to do very often after this as he is a house bird, only if his poops start looking bad you might want to do it in the future, but a this point in time it would be wise to get the fecal and the culture done as well. you can shop around to more vets to do the tests for you, some want to see the bird others will run test without, but remember when talking to vets about him he is your pet pigeon not a feral


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> but remember when talking to vets about him he is your pet pigeon not a feral


She's right. Many vets will see or treat a "pet" pigeon, but ridiculously, not a ferral.  So it's always your pet, even if you just picked it up from the sidewalk.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Fbirdie82 said:


> Uhhhh.... $50 is a GREAT deal for a vet to look at a pigeon. The lowest I found in my area was $65. But have been told up to $90 just to bring the bird in and have them take a look -- this does not include any treatment!
> 
> You've already gotten a lot of great advice on worming. So I will just tell you about pellets.
> 
> ...


He only has one rescued bird in his apartment, so a 50lb bag of pigeon checkers won't work for him. If I only had a few birds in the house, which I do or a lone pigeon I would buy the bag of harrison's, you can not beat the quaility of it. a 5lb bag will last my three doves a month or more as they only eat about 1 teaspoon each a day and they get some treat seeds too, so it goes a long way, good thing because it is pricey for just 5lbs. about the same as the 50lb of checkers!, wish I could afford to feed my outside pigeons it but then I would be in the poor house then....LOL...


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## mookeeman (Dec 11, 2008)

i use pellets i used to feed a popcorn mixture but i waisted more then it was worth so i use a 21 % pigeon ration and it doeswonders for my young they grow like weeds


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Glyn said:


> can you use spartix as a wormer ????


No you cannot.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Each Pigeon has his/her own preference for seeds in the Pigeon mix...ones they really look forward to. I would hate to deprive mine of a favorite.It seems like the pellets would be so boring. 
Kept Pigeons can have a pretty boring existence unless they are given twigs and sticks to build nests...baths....treats...ample nest boxes and such. I personally think that healthy birds are the ones that are occupied...have some 'intellectual stimulation' in their life.


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## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

OK, I went to petco and bought some dog wormer. 3 pouches, each with 1 gram of fenbendazole. You're supposed to put it on the dog's food, but I figure I can put it in the water. Anyone know the dosage? It says you have to give it for 3 days.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

flyingrat said:


> OK, I went to petco and bought some dog wormer. 3 pouches, each with 1 gram of fenbendazole. You're supposed to put it on the dog's food, but I figure I can put it in the water. Anyone know the dosage? It says you have to give it for 3 days.


What are you going to do with the dog wormer?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

*Please scroll to the bottom of the page.*

Avian Medications: A to Z
When your bird is sick, you take it to your vet, some tests are run and evaluated, and then a medication is prescribed. When administered as directed for the correct length of time, your bird gets well. That seems very straightforward, doesn't it? However, the simple act of choosing the correct medication for treatment is based on many different factors. Let's take a look at the complicated and confusing world of avian medications so we will have a better understanding of this subject.

There are many medications used in avian medicine today. Veterinarians may choose to prescribe from drugs developed for human use, those labeled for use in dogs and cats, medications compounded from a pharmacy or less commonly, from those actually developed and labeled for use in birds. How a veterinarian chooses a drug to dispense depends on many factors, including the species of the bird, its age, its general condition, what type of disease it has, testing results, drug cost, drug availability, how the drug is formulated (pill, oral suspension, injectable, etc.) and personal choice. Drugs can be given orally, by injection, by nebulization, topically (in the eye, ear canal, etc.), in the cloaca or possibly by a transdermal patch.

Medications usually have two names, the chemical name that is used to describe the drug, and the trade name that is the name given by a drug company to identify their brand of that drug. For example, there are many trade names for the drug combination, trimethoprim/sulfa, including BactrimTM and SeptraTM. For this reason, it is less confusing to use the chemical name when discussing a drug. Also, readers in other countries will probably not be familiar with trade names of drugs in our country and vice versa.

A: antibiotic, one of a group of medications that are used to treat bacterial infections. Some are called broad-spectrum and are used to treat a wide variety of bacteria. Other are used to treat a specific group of bacteria (Gram positive, Gram negative, aerobic, anaerobic). Some antibiotics kill the offending bacteria (bacteriocidal), others just prevent the bacteria from reproducing (bacteriostatic).

aerobic bacteria, bacteria that grow in the presence of oxygen

anaerobic bacteria, bacteria that grow in the absence of oxygen

ampicillin, an antibiotic in the penicillin family, not often used in avian medicine, since many bacteria that cause avian infections are often resistant to it

amoxicillin, an antibiotic in the penicillin family, not often used in avian medicine, since many bacteria that cause avian infections are often resistant to it

amoxicillin and clavulanate, a combination of drugs that makes amoxicillin more effective in treating some bacterial infections

amikacin, an aminoglycocide (as is gentamicin), a potent antibiotic that must be given by injection, as it is not absorbed orally, can cause deafness and/or kidney damage, so fluids should usually be administered during injections to prevent kidney damage, may also be used in nebulization therapy

amphotericin B, a potent antifungal agent, used for treating aspergillosis, given by intravenous injection, nebulization, or directly into the trachea, is toxic to the kidneys, also available in topical cream

aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid), potent anti-inflammatory, useful for musculoskeletal pain, also will bring fever down

B: butorphanol, a pain medication and cough suppressant, used to treat pain in avian patients

C: ciprofloxacin, broad-spectrum antibiotic, made for human use, often used in avian medicine, was in the news during anthrax scare because it is a first choice antibiotic for treating that disease, is a fluoroquinolone, in the same family of antibiotics as enrofloxacin (BaytrilTM) 

cefotaxime, in the group of cephalosporins, an injectable antibiotic that crosses the blood-brain barrier, can be used to treat susceptible bacterial infections in the brain, and also useful for serious susceptible bacterial infections elsewhere in the body

cephalexin, also a cephalosporin, can be given orally to treat susceptible bacterial infections, may be good for deep skin infections

chloramphenicol, an older antibiotic that is bacteriostatic, chloramphenicol palmitate not available in U.S., but can be compounded, can be given orally, in humans and animals, can cause dangerous anemia

chlortetracycline, an older member of the tetracycline family, formerly used to treat psittacosis (Chlamydophila), oral preparation, however doxycycline is preferred

clotrimazole, an antifungal used as an adjunct to aspergillosis treatment, can be administered into air sacs, into the trachea, topically or by nebulization

calcitonin, a hormone used to treat metabolic bone disease

chorionic gonadotropin, a hormone used to inhibit egg-laying, also used to treat feather-picking due to sexually related disorders

calcium EDTA, preferred initial drug to chelate lead or zinc related to toxicosis, given by injection

carprofen, oral or injectable for pain relief

chelating agent, a drug used to bind toxic elements (lead, zinc, iron) and remove them from the body safely

cortisone, a corticosteroid that should be used with extreme caution in avian patients due to immunosuppressive properties

cisapride, an oral medication to stimulate gastrointestinal motility, increases gastric emptying rate

celecoxib, a COX-2 enzyme inhibitor, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, used to control symptoms of Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD), is not a cure

D: doxycycline, a very effective drug for treating psittacosis (Chlamydophila), can be given orally, is bacteriostatic, also available as an injectable preparation that will provide blood levels for one week with just one injection (however, this drug preparation is not available in the U.S., also used to treat susceptible bacterial infections and mycoplasmosis

dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA), preferred oral chelator for lead toxicosis, effective for zinc toxicosis

diazepam, used for sedation, seizures, can be used with anesthetic agents, oral or injectable

dexamethasone, a potent steroid, anti-inflammatory, used for shock and trauma, may predispose a bird to aspergillosis and other fungal infections

diphenhydramine, antihistamine, used for allergic feather-picking

E: enrofloxacin, broad-spectrum antibiotic, useful for a wide variety of infections, injectable (can be given orally), tablets, also available in a 3.23% solution for poultry that can be administered orally, multiple injections should not be given, as they can cause serious tissue damage, pain and nerve damage

F: fluconazole, antifungal medication, fungistatic, useful for treating Candida yeast infections, can be combined with nystatin, another treatment for yeast

fluoxetine, used as adjunctive treatment for depression-induced feather-picking, antidepressant

flucytosine, an antifungal, fungistatic, can be used prophylactically in raptors and waterfowl to prevent aspergillosis, may be used as adjuvant for aspergillus treatment

*fenbendazole, an antiparasitic drug, not recommended for routine use in avian patients as it can be toxic, perhaps fatal in some species, and other antiparasitic drugs are safer and as effective*


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

as said no dog deworm meds....there are pigeon supply sites online here is a link to one of them, they will have about all you need there.
http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glyn said:


> can you use spartix as a wormer ????


Spartrix is for canker, not worms.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why would you buy a dog wormer for a bird? You can poison him. A bird and a dog are not the same. What is acceptable for one species, will kill another. Buy it online for crying out loud, or try a store where they have birds, and ask. If they don't have something specifically for birds, then go back to square one, and order it online.


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## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

Jay3 said:


> Why would you buy a dog wormer for a bird? You can poison him. A bird and a dog are not the same. What is acceptable for one species, will kill another. Buy it online for crying out loud, or try a store where they have birds, and ask. If they don't have something specifically for birds, then go back to square one, and order it online.


it's the same stuff they have at Foys.


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## plamenh (Aug 11, 2006)

Dog wormer can contain same medicine as pigeon one, but it has different strength and concentration. Do not use non pigeon products without knowledge or professional help. Instead de-worming you may have de-pigeoning effect. And this is not a joke.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

Jay3 said:


> Why would you buy a dog wormer for a bird? You can poison him. A bird and a dog are not the same. What is acceptable for one species, will kill another. Buy it online for crying out loud, or try a store where they have birds, and ask. If they don't have something specifically for birds, then go back to square one, and order it online.


*Well I will try to explain,before there were wormers for pigeons. People used wormers that were made for other animals, and if we take a close look at some that are sold in pigeon supply houses we can still find many that are sold and used on pigeons,these were use in trial and error in the hope to save a bird that was in fact dying. Now today we do have wormers for our birds but if one checks out some that are still sold they will find that IVOMEC 1% INJECTION for cattle and pigs,and IVOMEC DRENCH FOR SHEEP 0.08% are two still sold and used today by pigeon people. The Ivomec 1% type is use in drop form the race bird or larger birds are given 3 drops, smaller bird are 1 to 2 drops depending on their size. The drench type is given in the drinking water 8 cc per gallion, the drench is also used in the bath water to kill lice and mites.Now after having said all that I would recomend that those new to pigeons buy one of the newer wormers made for pigeons just to be on the safe side* .GEORGE


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## mookeeman (Dec 11, 2008)

you see why i feed pellets is that the domanat male will fly down and get what he want's it may be the peas or what ever right.. then the next goes down and picks what he want's so buy the time the last one get's to the food all the good stuff is gone 

so by feeding the pelets i am forcing every bird to get the same food into them and there young


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

mookeeman said:


> you see why i feed pellets is that the domanat male will fly down and get what he want's it may be the peas or what ever right.. then the next goes down and picks what he want's so buy the time the last one get's to the food all the good stuff is gone
> 
> so by feeding the pelets i am forcing every bird to get the same food into them and there young


Actually, I can see your reasoning. They do do that.


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## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

plamenh said:


> Dog wormer can contain same medicine as pigeon one, but it has different strength and concentration. Do not use non pigeon products without knowledge or professional help. Instead de-worming you may have de-pigeoning effect. And this is not a joke.


You just have to do the math, that's all  1 gram of dog wormer powder contains 222 mg of fenbendazole. On the Foys site, one dose of fenbendazole is 8 mg. So, if you dissolve one packet of dog wormer in 250 ml of water, you need to give the bird 9 ml of solution to get the correct dose. I halved that for Icarus because he's really scrawny. He probably weighs about half of what a good homer does.

He seems fine this morning, after dosing him last night. Didn't see any worms in his poop. He might not of had any, or maybe he just didn't have the big ones you can see. 

I looked at pellets when I went to Petco yesterday, and the only kind they had was for parrots, budgies, or finches/canaries. Protein runs around 15%. Is that OK for a pigeon?

thanx for all your help


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

flyingrat said:


> You just have to do the math, that's all  1 gram of dog wormer powder contains 222 mg of fenbendazole. On the Foys site, one dose of fenbendazole is 8 mg. So, if you dissolve one packet of dog wormer in 250 ml of water, you need to give the bird 9 ml of solution to get the correct dose. I halved that for Icarus because he's really scrawny. He probably weighs about half of what a good homer does.
> 
> He seems fine this morning, after dosing him last night. Didn't see any worms in his poop. He might not of had any, or maybe he just didn't have the big ones you can see.
> 
> ...


the ones for cocktiel size birds would work, try to stay away from the colored ones...just does'nt seem natrual to me. As far as the deworming goes, glad you know your math, but there are safer ways of doing it with out all the hassle. I think you need to check out all the "stuff" on the pigeon supply sites as alot of these products are just for pigeons and are tried and true.


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## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

Just a quick update:
Icarus seems to have come thru the worming pretty well! His poop already looks better to me, and he seems...I don't know how to say it, exactly...perkier? Not that he's really doing anything different, but he just seems like he feels better.

He's gotten more comfortable with his diaper, too. Doesn't put up as much of a stink when I put it on him. I took his food dish out of the cage and now I put food on the board for him by hand several times a day. I figure this way he can learn to associate something good with my hand.

So, we're coming along, albeit very slowly.


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## jmaxpsi (Jul 31, 2009)

flyingrat said:


> Just a quick update:
> Icarus seems to have come thru the worming pretty well! His poop already looks better to me, and he seems...I don't know how to say it, exactly...perkier? Not that he's really doing anything different, but he just seems like he feels better.
> 
> He's gotten more comfortable with his diaper, too. Doesn't put up as much of a stink when I put it on him. I took his food dish out of the cage and now I put food on the board for him by hand several times a day. I figure this way he can learn to associate something good with my hand.
> ...


Interesting, I wanna see a diaper on him.....


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

mookeeman said:


> you see why i feed pellets is that the domanat male will fly down and get what he want's it may be the peas or what ever right.. then the next goes down and picks what he want's so buy the time the last one get's to the food all the good stuff is gone
> 
> so by feeding the pelets i am forcing every bird to get the same food into them and there young


*Hi MOOKEEMAN, Well this seems odd I have never seen this one bird going to the feed tray at a time. How many birds do you have?When I feed my birds they all dive in*GEORGE


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## flyingrat (Jul 26, 2009)

jmaxpsi said:


> Interesting, I wanna see a diaper on him.....


we aim to please...voila!


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## Forest (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi there, 
I've supplemented my dove's diet with Harrison's (for the small dove, I used "Super Fine") and Mazuri Small Bird Maintenance Diet pellets. 

One caution regarding pellets: I've read on several occasions that a diet of pellets only, if they are too high in protein, can increase risk of gout. Dr. Wilmer Miller, as I recall, had such an experience with his ringneck doves some years back, after putting them on an all-pellet diet. Gout is to be avoided, for sure.

So, my choice has been to use part pellets, part a varied mix of seed and grain, with fresh greens added (though alas, my dove finds them pretty uninteresting). And, a vitamin supplement, as well as oyster shell grit, occasionally limestone grit, and other trace mineral supplements. Lots of interesting things to examine on Foy's and Jedd's websites, and others.

My dove likes a bedtime snack, sprinkled right in front of where he sleeps (yes, Spoiled Bird syndrome). If there's something special I want him to eat, like a good serving of the Harrison's pellets, I sprinkle them there. Helps convince him they're a treat!

I once used Foy's dropping analysis, when my dove first joined me. The result: they found two kinds of parasite. I went to the avian vet, who did her own test and found yet another present. I wasn't confident enough to treat without checking with the vet. She prescribed two medications (I forget which) which we squirted in the beak. Took care of our problems, and they've not returned.

The very best of luck to you and the bird!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When I feed mine, the more pushy ones will try to shoulder the others out, and the shyer birds will wait until it has become a bit quieter at the feeder. But there is enough for everyone, and I think everyone gets some of what they like.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Forest, that was interesting about the pellets. I don't think many people know that. At least I haven't heard it before.


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