# baby question -- is this normal??



## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Okay, so I'm watching my little neighbor hatchlings grow and develop outside my window (they are now 9 days old), peeping and flopping around, etc. So wonderful!

But -- I've noticed an increasing difference in their size. At first I just assumed that one is male and the other female, hence the difference. Now, however, one is more than twice the size of the other -- he also seems to be developing more quickly on the whole -- his eyes are always open and bright, he is growing lots of feathers, etc. The little one still has her eyes closed about half the time, and isn't fledging as fast. The big one actually moves to the outside of the nest to keep the little one safe, it seems.

Mama and Papa Pij are leaving them unattended for longer and longer periods of time, and coming back with lovely bugs for them to eat from time to time. Should I be worried about the little one? Or am I just being a nervous "first time parent?"


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

minimonkey said:


> Mama and Papa Pij are leaving them unattended for longer and longer periods of time, and coming back with lovely bugs for them to eat from time to time. Should I be worried about the little one? Or am I just being a nervous "first time parent?"


Leaving the babies unattended for longer periods of time as they get older is quite normal. An extreme different in size and development of the babies is usually an indication of a problem such as paratyphoid or the smaller one not getting fed enough because it doesn't compete well for parental attention or because the parents sense that something is wrong and are purposely allowing the smaller baby to fall behind and eventually die. 

Can you tell whether or not the crop of the smaller baby is full?

Terry


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I have no idea how to tell if the crop is full! I'll try, if you instruct me how. If they are letting the little one die  I'd like to take her in myself. I certainly don't want to be a squab-napper, however! If it is paratyphoid, should I be worried about handling her? The parents both seem quite healthy, as does the bigger squab. Oy! I know so little, except that I love these little fellows a great deal, and I certainly wouldn't mind having a pigeon companion, even if she stayed with me for life.

Edited to add: I just saw the father pigeon feeding the little one, and he is now sitting on top of her -- the big one is sitting next to them.


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## elvis_911 (Apr 26, 2004)

seems weird 2 times the size, good news though that the pigeon is being fed.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi Minimonkey,

I found a previous thread that includes links you can click on to see what an empty and full crop looks like.....hope this helps

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=3612

Linda


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Wow -- that was really helpful. The bigger baby's crop appears quite full, the little one does not appear full at all. The little one doesn't look that much smaller than the pictures in the link of babies about the same age -- the other one is just huge by comparison. (Papa pij is pretty gigantic himself, so maybe it is genetic. ) Little baby is pecking and chirping at big baby, as if he might feed her  I'm thinking she is not getting enough to eat -- and given their size difference, she is likely to continue to wither away as she can't possibly compete with the big guy now.


I think I'll stop by the pet store this afternoon, and get some baby bird mash, a heating pad, and some instruction about feeding. Looks like I may have an adopted child on the way  Expect numerous questions! I'm actually quite excited at the prospect of taking a young'un in -- I just don't want to do any harm. I have no pets, am home a fair amount most days, and would certainly enjoy the company of a friendly house-pigeon.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Hi MM,

In case you need it...here is a link to the various methods members have had success with in feeding babies....

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682

This thread is located along with many other useful threads in the Pigeon Daily forum under Resources....you may want to go to Resources just to check out the various threads that offer much basic information regarding pigeons and pigeon babies.

Linda


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thanks everyone! I'm all prepared with supplies, and am now watching closely to see what happens during feedings, etc. The little one wandered out of the nest for a bit this afternoon, but scrabbled back in, peeping, when mom came. The big one is definitely getting more food in the feedings, but little one is getting some, too. I don't want to make off with this lovely little thing if it isn't necessary -- I'd rather she live a free life in the wild than a domesticated one, if possible, and I hate the idea of traumatizing the parent birds and breaking up the family -- but I am prepared to nab her if she continues to fail to thrive.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You can feed the baby if you think he doesn't get enough food. I did it several times and it worked out fine every time. I don't remove the babies, just feed them twice a day and then put it back in it's nest. The parents won't mind, if you are afraid they get upset do it when they are gone.

Also, only one of the babies I supplemented with food became kind of tame but only with me. But I also was palying a lot with him and sometimes took him indoors for the night. He lived in the wild for over two years and he came for food and water daily. Now he has to live indoors and is a beloved pet.

Reti


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi and thanks for the super and helpful counsel. This is minimonkey's husband (in the interest of full disclosure) and now I'm wondering if we should, after all, take in the little one. The mother pigeon is on the nest now (it's 8:25 p.m. local time) but is really covering only one of the fledglings -- the big one that's twice the little one's size. The little guy isn't really under her at all and is rather exposed to the night air (it'll probably get down to mid 50s F tonight). Is she not keeping the little guy under her because she's decided not to expend any more effort to keep him/her around and, as such, should we take the fledgling in? And do pigeons do that sort of thing with their young? Or perhaps it's because she can't physically cover both? (There appears, however, to be enough room in the nest, which is in a sheltered corner of a rafter outside our window. Thanks so much for any advice!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Mr. and Mrs. Minimonkey! Glad to see the other half posting here. It's hard to say what is best for the smaller squab, but I'm gonna put myself out on a limb here and say ..

If you are really willing to try and go the whole nine yards for this baby, then bring it in, get it warm, keep it warm, and feed it. If the crop is empty when you retrieve the baby, then I think we will have made the right decision.

The real problem will be if the baby has paratyphoid or some other medical problem. This should become very apparent if the baby continues to show slow growth and development even after you take over hand feeding and seeing to its every want and need. Should this be the case, then a veterinary assessment of what is wrong would be best, but if that is not possible, I would treat aggressively with Baytril assuming that it is paratyphoid. The Baytril can have side effects in very young birds, but if it is paratyphoid and not treated, the end result will be death.

Please search out the old threads from Alea regarding Bert and Ali .. this is a definite paratyphoid case that was hard fought and won. It's not for the faint of heart nor for those who can't keep the regimen of food and medication up to take on a paratyphoid baby, but Alea managed to pull it off and in fine form.

If nothing else, bring the little one for the night where it can be warm and comfortable and put it back in the nest during the day. If the crop is empty when you bring it in, then feed it. 

Here's a link to an old picture of Itsy and Bitsy .. two of mine .. Itsy was definitely paratyphoid, and I didn't realize it .. little one didn't make it:
http://www.rims.net/itsy1214.htm the size difference is very telling.

Let us know what you decide to do, and we'll help as best we can in any case.

Terry


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you for the reply! Yes, the size difference is worrying me a lot -- it isn't quite as exaggerated as your photo, but not far from it, either. The little one is growing, but not nearly as fast as the other. I'm going to let them be together in the nest today, and then likely take the small baby in tonight. I do know she is being fed, though maybe not nearly enough -- so perhaps it *is* a medical issue. If it appears to be, we'll get her to a vet and get some medication. What price love, eh?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Two other possible causes of size difference: Internal trichomoniasis ("canker") can cause a chick's growth to be stunted. It wouldn't hurt to treat the baby for this with Spartrix.

The other cause is when the eggs are laid too far apart and the parents, often inexperienced youngsters, begin incubating when the first one is laid. If hatched a day apart the younger one does okay, but if hatched two full days apart (I've seen it happen) the older one is so much bigger and stronger that the younger one really doesn't get enough food. It's impossible to determine what is going on with your little one without seeing it, but best of luck to you in helping the chick. I see you are in Oakland, CA. If you need additional help, send me a private e-mail--I'm in San Jose.


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## mistenle (Feb 7, 2005)

Another reason is if the parents aren't getting enough food. Our neighbor didn't always feed his pigeons well and when there wasn't enough food the parents would feed one baby well and the other one not very well. The small ones usually survived.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi! And thanks again for all the helpful responses and advice. It appears things have taken a turn for quite the better with our little one; s/he seems to have grown by quite a bit in the time since my wife (this is Mr. Minimokey writing) posted her first query. The size differential between the babies in the photos I've posted is considerably diminished from just early yesterday. I hope that, after viewing the two pics, the far more pigeon-experienced on this board would render their opinion and advise as what to do next. Thanks a heap! You all have been so helpful and generous with your time and advice.  Oh, P.S. The smaller baby is the one in front on both pictures


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Way too precious Mr. and Mrs. Minimonkey! Your babies are fine .. just keep looking out for both of them! Healthy and good looking babies both!

Terry


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

Hi, Terry! Mr. and Mrs. Minimonkey both here (she's typing with one hand and I with the other -- errr, not!) and we're both really happy that the two little babies have been given a clean bill of health. The little one looks good, really good, and we're keeping a close eye on them both. Mom and Dad pigeons aren't on them as much anymore but the babies don't appear to be shivering. In fact, the bigger one actually seems to drape the little one under his/her wing. Thanks again so much, everyone!!! We'll keep you posted if you'd care to know.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Minimonkey, 

Thanks for the pics and update. I am tending to agree with Birdmom over this one. It is probably a case of the one chick hatching earlier than the other but both look very good and healthy going by the pictures. Wishing them continued success and good health.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

You're doing a good job--they both look healthy and appear to be developing normally.


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