# Cleaning feathers



## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi.

Say, I have problems cleaning the feathers of my birds. I have Indian Fantails, and, as you can imagine, their feather can become quite a mess.

I don't want to use somthing that could hurt my birds; I don't want to destroy their natural oils, if possible; I do want to be able to clean their feather as easily and totally as possible.

And, if possible, perhaps put a bit of a shine on them, as well. Don't know if that's possible.

So, what can be used? Is it as simple as using bio-liquid dish soap? Or, what?

So, any ideas? What works well; and, is safe and easy to use?

Cheers.
Michael.


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Michael... in the past I have used a pet shampoo ( dog mostly ) to clean up my Indian Fantails ...I also use it if I need to wash any of my chooks . Sometimes a soft tooth brush works in conjunction with the shampoo on badly soiled feathered feet .


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

give them bath salts when they bath ... don't rub their feathers with a rough towel or a brush it will destroy their feathers forever until they molt ... you have to deal with the reason the feathers are dirty if It's a dirty perch or a nest box you have to consider cleaning it regularly ..


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hello Michael,
Fantails have a whole lotta feathers at tail and feet which can get easily messy so its advisable to keep them in big regularly cleaned cages/boxes/coops where they can move around without getting their feathers catch up in something or getting messy/dirty.
If you use soap/shampoo on feathers then they will get distorted.
Best would be to give them bathing water regularly twice a week and let them bath on their own.
You can add citric acid-the one that comes in form of fine cystaline powder and its cheap and edible also which aint gonna hurt your birds even if they drink it. Regular bathing will make your birds' feathers clean and shiny bath after bath slowly. It also repels ectoparasites from feathers. Fresh lemon juice can also be added to birds' bathing water which helps in washing the dirt out of feathers.
There are other products available in the market also like bathing salts,water cleansers etc. Choose those which are safe for pigeons.
Best would be to let the birds bath and give the birds time. They have mechanism to shed the distorted useless feathers to replace them with new ones by moulting.

Here,those who show,pluck each and every feather of the bird, making it completely naked and then give the bird protein rich diet with calcium supplements so that birds grow new shiny feathers. I'm totally against it,but just feel like telling you about some people's cruelity.


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## satinette tippler (Jul 7, 2012)

brocky bieber said:


> Hello Michael,
> Fantails have a whole lotta feathers at tail and feet which can get easily messy so its advisable to keep them in big regularly cleaned cages/boxes/coops where they can move around without getting their feathers catch up in something or getting messy/dirty.
> If you use soap/shampoo on feathers then they will get distorted.
> Best would be to give them bathing water regularly twice a week and let them bath on their own.
> ...


I Agree with u 
U can give them a bath twice a week and use salt and plz dont use shampoo's cuz it will damage there ability to fly for few hrs (thats what i have heard when ppl say dont tie their wing / cut their wing USE SHAMPOO)


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

They can be bathed with shampoo. And with dishwashing liquid. Many people will do that when getting birds ready for show. BUT be careful and let them dry well after befor you put them back in a loft. AND if you have them where they can stay rather clen. Loft ect. IT helps. You need to use something of flooring pine shavings or such to help. Then offer a bath. When bathing with soap. Go with the feather webbing so it does not fray the feathers. NOW stained feathers well they will take time several baths. So agin offering baths will help that. Be sure to rinse all the soap off. and they birds will look well in about 3 days..


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

HI.

I clean the loft weekly. BTW, I get scolded by others about this; some say semi-annually at most as an example of some recommendations I get. Thoughts?

Removing all feathers is just cruel; no way will I do that.

I was told by a local fancier that I must not let my birds bath in the winter months; it takes away their natural oils and makes them more susceptible to illness. Thoughts? Because of this telling, I've been keeping my birds away from their bath; and, the result is that I have messy birds. I can't clean the loft often enough to prevent it.

You all have given me several ideas. Thanks again lots.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

If you bring the birds INSIDE to bathe them Where there is heat while they DRY they will be ok. AND in about THREE days after you do this they will look OK.. No harm done. Remember when birds animals ect get into ooil splills rescue people USE DAWN dish soup to clean them And they do just fine. Far as OUTSIDE baths in winter IF the temps are wamr enough and sun exposer is there it is ok. But should be done early enough in the day so the birds can dry well before darck.. Now just how dirty do you see theses birds are. Are they having droppings on there feathers ect. Is it just a few feathers or most of them


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Checkmate said:


> HI.
> 
> I clean the loft weekly. BTW, I get scolded by others about this; some say semi-annually at most as an example of some recommendations I get. Thoughts?
> 
> ...


I would consider scraping down perches and sleeping areas more often to avoid any accumulation. Also possibly narrower 'daytime' perches so that any feathering on the feet is less likely to drag through droppings.


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi re lee.

Some birds have their tail feathers rather badly dirty at this time. Some are minor. Some are just need for maintenance. It's a mixed bag of mess.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Checkmate said:


> Hi re lee.
> 
> Some birds have their tail feathers rather badly dirty at this time. Some are minor. Some are just need for maintenance. It's a mixed bag of mess.
> 
> ...


You can just wash the bad areas And let them dry. Remember stains will still take some time But will look cleaner after you wash them. when i raised fantails I never let them use a perch I kept a floor covering And the were kept on the floor. They do not mess there tails up much. They do not get funnel tailed ECT. if you have perches and they they get dirty or others birds can mess on them. Anyway Just saying they can be washed It is the question you asked


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

HI re lee.

You know, I've been tempted to remove the perches and keep them on the floor. A good idea? I've been convinced for some time that it's their being on the perches that contribute to this tail messing problem. This said, I was once told that it's crucial for each bird to have a perch to sit on. I'll be very happy to remove them. Thoughts?

Cheers.
Michael.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Well then remove the perches. As the birds will do better far as being cleaner. and not messing there tails up.


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Don't remove the perches and expect them to sit on the floor, they are not chickens, actually, even chickens get given roosting spots OFF the ground. They may do better as far as being cleaner but will they be happy and healthy.

Build perches which don't allow the birds to poop on each other.

Re Lee, You have been in pigeons a long time, Have you ever expected your birds to sit on the floor at night?


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Checkmate; said:


> HI.
> 
> I clean the loft weekly. BTW, I get scolded by others about this; some say semi-annually at most as an example of some recommendations I get. Thoughts?
> 
> ...


Cleaniness is not only required to keep the loft and birds clean but also to keep away the diseases that are commonly found even in the best maintained lofts. So scraping the droppings out daily or every other day can minimize the problem of your birds getting messy to a great extent.
I let my birds bath in winters and they don't seem to have any problems. But its important to let your birds bath in the mornings when there's sun outside,so that they can dry their feathers quickly. Its not advisable to let the birds bath in windy and cloudy weather in winters.

When we bath our birds with shampoo or dishwasing soap, its very important to wash off the soap completely. One should be very carefully while washing the birds with brush as the vane of the feathers can get unhooked leaving the ruffled or distorted looking feathers behind.
Take few feathers and try to wash them first. And see for yourself how the vane once get unpatterned looks like.

When I had fantails,I also kept them on floor. I placed bricks on the meshwire floor for pigeons to perch on,with droppings falling down on the ground keeping birds clean.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Don't remove the perches and expect them to sit on the floor, they are not chickens, actually, even chickens get given roosting spots OFF the ground. They may do better as far as being cleaner but will they be happy and healthy.
> 
> Build perches which don't allow the birds to poop on each other.
> 
> Re Lee, You have been in pigeons a long time, Have you ever expected your birds to sit on the floor at night?


YES When i raised FANTAILS I never used any perches. And that was what I was more or less taught to do. And Everybody who raised and showed there fantails DID NOT provide perches.. Many consider the fantail to be a ground bird. Because flying can cause problems with the tail. that goes aginst showing the bird. Now as just pets a person can do as they wish. But Many of the top fantail breeders in the world do not use perches. Just as some of the utility type breeders do not use perches.


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi all.

Very interesting and very much appreciated. Just an additional thought from me... my pairs who are in 'boxes' do not use perches; they're simply in their respective boxes. During the day, they are out and about; but, at night no perch. These birds stay clean. I know what my perches are doing to my birds; I think that I will remove the perches for awhile and see how things change. I will also observe closely their activities to ensure there is no undue stress regarding the change. Just a note ... I have day perching opportunities for them; and, they all seem to use these without issues. I'm believing it's the night activities that are causing most of my feather messing issues.

Also, unfortunately, I'm unable to clean daily; once weekly is about the best I can do. 

And, I will work at designing a perch that will prevent the messing of other birds AND, prevent the coning of the tail feathers.

And, I live in western Canada; at this time of year, there is lots of cold, cloud, rain, snow, and little, if any, sunlight. I will try of have their bath pool available for the mornings. But, I'm also thinking that I could begin a bit of a regiment of cleaning up one bird per day in my house keeping them warm until dry starting with the worst messes; then over time, it'll become more of a maintenance programme for my flock. Thoughts?

Cheers.
Michael.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

why did you right 'boxes'? Do you mean pairing cages as oppossed to nest boxes?

So how are they getting dirty exactly, from pooping on each other? Not from feet feathers dragging in the dirt then?

Eitherway
I think you have your answer already.
If the pairs in boxes are staying clean cannot you provide boxes for all your birds rather than forcing them to sleep on the ground? I do not mean box perches but nestbox type spaces - minus the nest.

Alternatively you can create perches that another bird cannot get under adn therefore get dirtied. Staggared perches? Standing logs? A single long wall/or shelf they cannot get under?

I do not think it is fair or necessary to deprive them of perches completely. I think people should be more than capable of thinking up a way to keep them both clean and happy.


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

HI Lisa.

I mean nesting boxes. Their feet and and leg feathers are fine. It's their backs and tails feathers that are under 'attack'. 

Again, in Spring I will be rebuilding my loft from the ground up. Many changes, I hope, will occur then. 

There is day perching available throughout the flyway (my flyway is 4500 cubic feet); it's their nighttime roosting activities that are the problem for me. Also, I have built many, many nest boxes throughout the loft and flyway areas; yet, most insist on sleeping in an area that doesn't work very well regarding perches. 

Shelves are an interesting idea; but, this is not a perch, as such. Standing logs? Interesting.

And, I will work at designing a perch system that another cannot get under. It's a bit of a challenge; and, I'm just still so new at this.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Checkmate said:


> HI Lisa.
> 
> I mean nesting boxes. Their feet and and leg feathers are fine. It's their backs and tails feathers that are under 'attack'.
> 
> ...


hmmm well if you have many spare nestboxes then perhaps removing the perches is not a problem as they will have an alternative to the floor already in place.

True, shelves are not perches per se, and you may have the problem of a dominant bird claiming the entire space. But you can mitigate that by placing small bricks along the shelf. However the shelf will still give them the security and comfort of being off the ground and in a 'roosting' spot.
It might be a quick fix idea of you do not want to invest too much atm since you are going to redesign the place.

Another quick fix might be cardboard or wooden boxes on the floor. Taller than just a brick on the floor. and no way for the birds to get under. Also easy to change out if it turns out not to do the trick

Good luck with your plans


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## subdivisions (Jan 4, 2014)

Shampoos and bath salts aren't very good for any bird, they can be dangerous and even fatal if it is not meant for a bird.

The best thing to use if they have issues with getting too dirty (and they aren't able to clean the filth off themselves with a bathing bowl) Then Dawn dish soap is best, as it is proven to be safe for animals. (specifically birds)

The important thing to remember is that Birds have an oil gland right near the top of base of the tail, that is meant to keep their feathers clean and keep them free of parasites, I am not sure about this but I think washing off the oil every week might be a bad thing as it can expose them to parasites during the time they are drying off and trying to rub the oil back into their feathers.

Birds are supposed to be self-efficient cleaners, which means they do not need to be bathed every week like a dog or cat would need to be.

but I am not sure of the situation so I don't know how dirty they might be or what is wrong?


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## subdivisions (Jan 4, 2014)

unless when everyone is talking about bath salts they mean this? - http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/pest-control/7031-dr-pigeons-bath-salts


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

Dogs and cats shouldn't be bathed every week either unless they have a condition that means they produce excess oil.

As far as I know only certain breeds like archangels have oil gland. not all pigeons, or birds do. But I may be mistaken its just that I remember it being specifically mentioned by an archangel breeder and shower that it was a special feature of this breed, which allows it to have such a glossy coat.

In either case I agree that it is safer to use tested dish soap than shampoos, as they do after oil spills. And once the birds are clean from the accumulated mess, providing them with bathwater should be enough to keep them so.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Checkmate said:


> Hi.
> 
> Say, I have problems cleaning the feathers of my birds. I have Indian Fantails, and, as you can imagine, their feather can become quite a mess.
> 
> ...



my advice would be to keep the birds clean by having them in an enclosure that helps keep them out of their droppings. cleaning often and not over crowding. 

also, offering bathing a few times a week, benefits are cleaner and happier birds. 

as far as products to get them clean after you consider their housing. I would say any gentle hypoallergenic shampoo for babies or baby animals and mixed in a tub of water and soak the bird and rubb the feathers with your fingers to get any soiling out.. it may not get it all out if there are stains, those you just have to wait till it molts out. but at least you know your birds are clean. after you giving them a bath, then start the regime of letting them bath in their own bath water a few times a week just in clean water.

you may want to wait to do this in warmer weather if your birds are outdoors.

making the feathers shiny is really not natural to pigeons, except some colors that carry iridescents around the neck. pigeons are powder down type featherd birds so dry powder is what keeps their feathers in place and smooth and also serves as water proofing, because it is dry it does not shine.


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## subdivisions (Jan 4, 2014)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Dogs and cats shouldn't be bathed every week either unless they have a condition that means they produce excess oil.
> 
> As far as I know only certain breeds like archangels have oil gland. not all pigeons, or birds do. But I may be mistaken its just that I remember it being specifically mentioned by an archangel breeder and shower that it was a special feature of this breed, which allows it to have such a glossy coat.
> 
> In either case I agree that it is safer to use tested dish soap than shampoos, as they do after oil spills. And once the birds are clean from the accumulated mess, providing them with bathwater should be enough to keep them so.


I'd have to check those facts give me some time to research, I can tell you for sure though that my pigeon is a feral pigeon and he has one. I have a hard time understanding how different breeds would not have them but I'll see...

apparently not all birds have oil glands but it's not clear which ones as the ones it states do not have oil glands I've personally seen to have them and they are active. It says amazon parrots do not have them when I've seen them in person and they do have them, it also says columbidae don't have them but my pigeon does have one and it's active so I'm very, very confused to be quite honest.


To be honest if your bird is rubbing it's beak near the base of the tail feathers and preening then it has an active uorpygial gland, I don't think it would vary from breed to breed but maybe for the non-flying ones and the frillbacks I would believe more, it just doesn't seem like most of them wouldn't have them. 

I'm not sure why it's so hard to find comprehensive information about which birds have them and which of the birds don't but it's a little frustrating and now I'll probably be searching forever for the answers.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

there are no facts about bathing, one pet may do well with frequent bathing and another not.. with the ph balanced shampoos out there for dogs and cats really they should be clean like we are, even if they don't see it that way, clean skin is healthy. esp if one uses a gentle cleanser. its all good. 

with birds just clean water that helps them keep the powder down from accumlating too much and it contributes to more preening which is good and yes pigeons have an oil gland at the base of their tail..if you see them preen it they sometimes rub their beak on it and then distribute the oil around the body and wings, and they also ingest it for their vitamin D3.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

subdivisions said:


> I'd have to check those facts give me some time to research, I can tell you for sure though that my pigeon is a feral pigeon and he has one. I have a hard time understanding how different breeds would not have them but I'll see...
> 
> apparently not all birds have oil glands but it's not clear which ones as the ones it states do not have oil glands I've personally seen to have them and they are active. It says amazon parrots do not have them when I've seen them in person and they do have them, it also says columbidae don't have them but my pigeon does have one and it's active so I'm very, very confused to be quite honest.
> 
> ...


Did not mean to send you on a hunting expedition through the net! Thanks for looking into it further 

Like I said I very well be wrong, and after spiritwings has also said that pigeons have it I am more inclined to believe it.

I do find it strange however. As pigeons aren't really 'water proof' like crows etc which have very shiny feathers and I know for sure have an oil gland. So when it makes sense to me that archangels would have one, but not an ordinary pigeon. 

So what is the powder they produce? Spiritwings you mentioned it also just now. Is that related to the oil gland or?

Also re washing any animal, I agree completely that there are no rules only guidlines. But less is more imo. You wash when needed and if they need more frequent baths for some reason you can start washing them more often, as suits them. That way you are sure you are not over washing. We wash our dogs 3 or 4 times a year or when they end up dirty. More often if one of them is on medicated shampoo. A friend doesn't wash his at all only rinses with fresh water and they do fine too. Alternatively another friend has a dog which has to be washed almost everyday due to a medical condition.


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## subdivisions (Jan 4, 2014)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> Did not mean to send you on a hunting expedition through the net! Thanks for looking into it further
> 
> Like I said I very well be wrong, and after spiritwings has also said that pigeons have it I am more inclined to believe it.
> 
> ...



oh no it's okay, I'm a very curious person, I find this information to be intriguing since it seems to be contradictory, I mean on the wikipedia and many other sites it just states the families that don't have them but does not state which species within those families specifically that can and cannot have them, or have them lie dormant.

What I can say though is if you are curious to know if your pigeon has it specifically, to check for the gland, it's actually pretty easy to find, all you have to do is move the feathers aside at the base of the tail (on the top of course, not where the cloaca would be) And you should feel a small bump that is kind of like a nipple (I know it sounds really weird) But it is actually necessary to check on it ever so often if they do have one to make sure it isn't blocked up or anything, some birds can get an infection in their gland resulting in a necessary vet visit. So if you do not know for sure it is important to see if they do have one so that it can be examined to make sure they are healthy, if you squeeze it gently and oil comes out (or a greasy textured liquid) then they are producing the oil and they are healthy, some birds have a dormant oil gland, so if you squeeze it and nothing comes out, then it's just a dormant gland.

the only time to really worry is if it looks swollen or red and swollen, and if your bird is supposed to be producing the oil and it isn't coming out then it should be taken to a vet


here is a picture of what a uropygial gland is supposed to look like, on a pigeon it would be completely covered by feathers and therefore not visible unless you move the feathers aside -


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I agree with NZ that by taking the perches, the birds would not be as happy or comfortable. You can build the perches out more from the wall, which will help them not to mess up the tail feathers. Not hard to fix. Also any dish detergent you use on them will remove their natural oil. You would then have to wait for them to build it back up again, so I wouldn't do that very often. Yes, people do use dawn detergent when birds have gotten into oil slicks, but it does remove the natural oils. If it removes petroleum oil, then of course it will remove natural oils as well.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

I thought this thread was about getting the birds CLEAN for now . And the the birds have soiled feathers. So a one time cleaning or NOT would work. And then a way to prevent future problems. Well No perches for some breeds are better. Or provide LARGE enough perches where the other birds do not mess on the birds below. And then a floor ocovering and baths. Far as being happy Thousands of fantails are not given perches. And sure live a good life. But each there own.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

re lee said:


> I thought this thread was about getting the birds CLEAN for now . And the the birds have soiled feathers. So a one time cleaning or NOT would work. And then a way to prevent future problems. Well No perches for some breeds are better. Or provide LARGE enough perches where the other birds do not mess on the birds below. And then a floor ocovering and baths. Far as being happy Thousands of fantails are not given perches. And sure live a good life. But each there own.


My bet is if you go to a loft where the fantails have been living on the floor and put a simple upside down box in the room you will have everyone fighting for the right to own that box.

that alone tells you that it is in fact something they desire

And as many have said there are plenty of ways to work around the problem without depriving them of all perches

Any kind of surface that will block them from pooping on other birds will solve the problem, and as Jay said deep enough surfaces that they have space for their tails

so.....why not??

the only answer I see is laziness


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

my Indian fan tails did not perch higher than 3 or 4 feet off the ground. with large breeds that don't fly up to high perches I have seen a wide shelf wall perch around the perimetor about 2 foot high(looks like a long bench) But my fans really spent most of their time on the ground or floor of the loft, same with my giant runts I have now. but the point is what ever loft it is , it needs to be clean for the birds to stay clean. bathing is just part of it.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> My bet is if you go to a loft where the fantails have been living on the floor and put a simple upside down box in the room you will have everyone fighting for the right to own that box.
> 
> that alone tells you that it is in fact something they desire
> 
> ...


 ONE who are you calling LAZY. AND why. TWO I give up Not worth my time trying to explain to people who do not understand.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I am saying it as I see it: there is no reason to remove all perches if there is a way to work around it.

if a fantail breeder has no perches - whether it is because that is what every fantial breeder he knows tell him thats what they have always done or because he decided to himself - it is for his convenience.

If there is an actual reason why alternative methods cannot be used I would be happy to hear it. But atm I do not see any.

Therefore the only conclusion I can come to is that someone would remove all perches because it is EASIER than trying to think outside of the box.

i have heavy birds too who spend MOST of their time on the floor - MOST. They still love the lower shelves and perches and will strut and coo and bounce from one to the other with glee.

Why deprive a bird of this if there is not need to???


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Lisanewtumbler. I understand you are rather new to keeping pigeons. And are young and learning. There are many breeds of pigeons in the world. And some breeds have different needs. As the different breeds of pigeons were cultivated by MAN. Made different then the orginal. Now Do you know about wrye tail. split tail, funnel tail, crooked tail. Then broken tail feathers frayed tail feathers. Well that is a problem with fantails If they fly much. Now have perches does not make them fly to much. But it allows them to mess up there tail. But a person CAN use perches AS I have said. Then LOFTS are different then a cage. As lofts are much largere. My fantail loft was SMALL just 24 feet long 8 feet deep. and 8 feet high. A cage well it can be much small where the birds are much less prone to flying. I used a 3 inche layer of PINE shavings on the floor to help keep the birds clean. Plus baths. YOU CALLED ME LAZY. One that was rude. You fail to understand what I said and failed to read where I said you can have perches if you want. But I do feel it is better not provide them for FANTAILS. Now you have had pigeons for a very short time and this forum can teach you a few things that can help. I hope you learn alot and do not keep reverting to name calling When you really need to think it through.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I only have one Indian Fan, but he is never on the floor. He likes to be up about 4 1/2 feet, on top of things. He has lots of room, and never messes up his feathers. If the shelf is large enough, or the perches are built out from the wall, they don't ruin the feathers. And they do like to get up higher than the floor. That's instinctual in all pigeons.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

re lee said:


> Lisanewtumbler. I understand you are rather new to keeping pigeons. And are young and learning. There are many breeds of pigeons in the world. And some breeds have different needs. As the different breeds of pigeons were cultivated by MAN. Made different then the orginal. Now Do you know about wrye tail. split tail, funnel tail, crooked tail. Then broken tail feathers frayed tail feathers. Well that is a problem with fantails If they fly much. Now have perches does not make them fly to much. But it allows them to mess up there tail. But a person CAN use perches AS I have said. Then LOFTS are different then a cage. As lofts are much largere. My fantail loft was SMALL just 24 feet long 8 feet deep. and 8 feet high. A cage well it can be much small where the birds are much less prone to flying. I used a 3 inche layer of PINE shavings on the floor to help keep the birds clean. Plus baths. YOU CALLED ME LAZY. One that was rude. You fail to understand what I said and failed to read where I said you can have perches if you want. But I do feel it is better not provide them for FANTAILS. Now you have had pigeons for a very short time and this forum can teach you a few things that can help. I hope you learn alot and do not keep reverting to name calling When you really need to think it through.


I'm sorry you feel offended by my post and that was not my intention. I did not mean to personally call you lazy, and I appologize for using that word. 

It is my opinion that many decisions we take are more based on our convenience and what we want to acheive out of the birds rather than what is in their best interest. For example people not scraping out their perches often because they don't see the birds getting dirty. i do not mean to start another discussion with this as I know there are many differing opinions on teh matter - but that is what I meant - taking a route of least resistance because it is more convenient than thinking of an alternative.

Yes I know there are many many varied breeds all with their different characteristics and needs.

But I also have read through all the posts here, and in none of them have I read any real reason as to why you would keep fantails on the floor exclusively.


I understand your concern for their feathers, but I also believe that human beings can be very innovative. We've invented so many ingenious contraptions when it comes to racing pigeons and their lofts, to get the most out of them. We should be more than capable of creating a fantail perch that is low to the ground, wide and spacious to give them room, and that no other bird can get under and get dirtied. Of course with racers the innovative ideas came about because it made people's lives easier or managment of the loft easier - not strictly for the benefit of the birds. In the case of fantails providing them perches does not make them any better as show birds, nor does it make their loft environment any easier to manage. it would simply be for the enrichment of their environment.

I am sure you take good care of your birds and have perfectly healthy birds. But if there is one thing I have learnt is that a pigeon is a pigeon no matter what the outside looks like. And living on one level for their entire day imo does not meet those requirements.

I may be relatively new to pigeons but I am not new to practical thinking and problem solving. The starter of the thread already made clear that his paired birds that sleep in the nests are infact clean and he is having no problems with them.

That is why I remain unconvinced that it is truly necessary and not simply convenient and convention to have a perch free loft for fantails.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

If you look at wild/feral pigeons the majority of their time is spent on flat surfaces. They spend almost all their time feeding and looking for grit and water on roadways, flat ground, etc. and even when they roost, they usually look for flat surfaces such as window sills, bridge abutments, flat roof surfaces, etc. very rarely are they found on "perches" per se. So having birds on the floor is not out of the ordinary. Also, at least with American fantails, I have seen many fall off perches when they start into their "show dancing", placing their heads back into their tail feathers and puffing out their breast while prancing around showing off. 

I guess it amounts to personal preference, but many show breeds, especially with feathering on their feet, have less trouble on the floor, or at least on perches that are fairly wide. Having open weave metal flooring, or wooden slat flooring helps a lot to keep everything cleaner.
My opinion only!


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

almondman said:


> If you look at wild/feral pigeons the majority of their time is spent on flat surfaces. They spend almost all their time feeding and looking for grit and water on roadways, flat ground, etc. and even when they roost, they usually look for flat surfaces such as window sills, bridge abutments, flat roof surfaces, etc. very rarely are they found on "perches" per se. So having birds on the floor is not out of the ordinary. Also, at least with American fantails, I have seen many fall off perches when they start into their "show dancing", placing their heads back into their tail feathers and puffing out their breast while prancing around showing off.
> 
> I guess it amounts to personal preference, but many show breeds, especially with feathering on their feet, have less trouble on the floor, or at least on perches that are fairly wide. Having open weave metal flooring, or wooden slat flooring helps a lot to keep everything cleaner.
> My opinion only!


I think perches should not be thought off just as T or V perches that are most common - but rather a surface above ground level where the bird can 'perch'.

So yes, I'd imagine a 2" perch is going to be quite useless to a fantail poor guy 

But a foot squared flat surface is I think a good solid surface for them to hang out on. Or even bigger if needs be.

Ferals will spend a lot of their time on the floor but never sleep there unless they are sick. And at any sign of danger they fly up. Safety is always up. They instinctively seek raised surfaces.

Though we have bred many different characteristics into pigeons, pigeons by nature are not ground birds in the sense of quails.

Before I installed my T perches I only had one wide shelf in the loft. Though it had plenty of space I had one pigeon claiming it all. So following advice from this forum I put bricks spaced along the shelf to act as individual perches. Within a few hours (it was before dark) I had all my pigeons lined up symmetrically on that shelf. It was pretty hilarious. They looked like ornaments. So even with just that small little bump of the brick they all felt the pull to be ON it rather than just anywhere. Kind of like kids playing king of the castle.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> I think perches should not be thought off just as T or V perches that are most common - but rather a surface above ground level where the bird can 'perch'.
> 
> So yes, I'd imagine a 2" perch is going to be quite useless to a fantail poor guy
> 
> ...


 Many ferals will roost on a flat are. On a building ROOF. by the hundreds. It depends on there locations. You LOFT as I have rad is a small one and you have about 6 birds. Some people have 600 birds and large lofts. This thread was a question for help get the birds clean it has run down to a debate over perches. Which is rather off subject. By now this person could have there birds as clean as the can get them. And be working on a away to keep them clean. As I said you are young and learning. But still have a lot to learn. Rather then try to make people see only what you have posted keep an open mind to others also. I except your idea If a person wishes. I explained mine And others theres.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

re lee said:


> Many ferals will roost on a flat are. On a building ROOF. by the hundreds. It depends on there locations. You LOFT as I have rad is a small one and you have about 6 birds. Some people have 600 birds and large lofts. This thread was a question for help get the birds clean it has run down to a debate over perches. Which is rather off subject. By now this person could have there birds as clean as the can get them. And be working on a away to keep them clean. As I said you are young and learning. But still have a lot to learn. Rather then try to make people see only what you have posted keep an open mind to others also. I except your idea If a person wishes. I explained mine And others theres.


It is not so off topic as the whole issue is as you said about keeping the birds clean and in good condition, so I think perches or lack of is an important aspect, because as you have said it greatly affects the fantails especially. What he choses to do of course is in his hands and what he feels is best for him.

Flat roofs, yes, street no. It was never about flat or not but about the idea of having an upper level to which they can retreat and roost. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. If you have a loft that is 3ft off the ground and the birds can feel that they are 'up' then maybe I'd agree that it could be done without 'elevated surfaces' but even then I would rather put them in. 

I respect the fact that you have probably been breeding fantails and keeping them clean with great success for years. But please do not take the size of my loft or the fact it is new as some kind of proof that I cannot form an educated opinion on the subject. The only reason I have only recently kept pigeons is because it was not until recently that I had the opportunity to do so. The obsession is an old one. My obsession with all things animal is old and deep. And with obsession comes observation and experience whether they were my animals or not.

6 or 600 should not change the requirements for what a pigeon seeks. And people have 600 racers or other pigeons which obviously use perches so there is no correlation between the number of birds you keep and what kind of perches you use. The fact remains that if pigeons are given a choice they will roost on an elevated surface, whether it is a V perch 6ft off the ground or a line of bricks on the floor. I do not know that from owning 600 pigeons. I know that from watching and feeding ferals for the past 20 years, plus my own limited pigeons, now and 6 years ago.

So I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point because I still believe that a solution can be found that would not damage their feathers or get them dirty.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

LISA. Lets end this debate. You are not helping the OP at all and not helping this entire thread By sticking to argueing your THOUGHTS. relize people have tried to contribute and you have tried to argue a subject that needs not be argued. Please listen Get back on subject


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

LisaNewTumbler said:


> So I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point because I still believe that a solution can be found that would not damage their feathers or get them dirty.


I have already agreed that the debate is over......


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## spiritflys (Aug 6, 2012)

I agree. I thought we agreed last week to stop useless debating and stick to topic? This is UNREAL.....


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

It is usually best to just give your advice or opinion to the thread maker, but some on this site have a habbit of quoting and commenting on others posts and opinions and this is what happens. it's a shame. some one has allot of time on their hands to think that deep into bird perches. so silly really. Im sure fantails can stay CLEAN whether they have them or not. which brings up the thread... bathing gets pigeons clean. The End. good luck with the rest of this topic, Im moving on.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

wow ok aside from the fact that

a) discussion was in fact OVER so the last 2 posts are not only utterly off topic but also exactly what you just said is sad spiritwings....commenting on other people's posts with no relation to topic

b) yes, I do spend a lot of time thinking about perches...and nest boxes, and doors and flights, and nesting material - because I would rather THINK about my birds and their environment than swallow what other people tell me whether it is logical or not

and if you fail to see that my posts were not about staying clean whether they have perches or not

but that it is UNFAIR to remove perches when there is no logical reason to then I apparently speak chinese

and I am so done with people incapable of reasonable thinking or of logical debates without getting personal. Apparently you're not allowed to defend your opinion in this FORUM. I'll keep that in mind in the future, saves me from wasting more time.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you just can't stop. relee's advice is from years and years of learning,he is one of our senior age wise persons. I would take his advice. move on.


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## LisaNewTumbler (Jun 24, 2013)

I know people who have been breaking in horses for years and years using pain and I don't have to have ever broken in a horse myself to know that there are better ways. 

I do NOT take advice just because of seniority, I take advice because it MAKES SENSE.

If i believe the fundementals are wrong than i don't care if it is the president of the united states telling me what to do, i will still not go along with it. I am not a sheep, I have a brain and I USE it.

Think of me what you will. I have heard nothing here to convince me fantails cannot have perches

And there is no way I believe the any breed of pigeon is 100% happy being on one level 24/7. they are pigeons not quails

And for the record. This argument was over. And you two instigated it again for absolutely no vaulable reason than wanting to get your 2 cents in to judge some one. Judge away, my reasons still stand.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

I have giant runts, have you? they do not get up on anything higher than about a foot high and not often, my chickens fly up higher than them..so yes they are 100% happy being on one level. you really need to stop.


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

we don't have to follow what someone says, no one said that, there is nothing to master about keeping pigeons, you learn from others and pass your experience to other people that need it. no need to be so stubborn about your opinions, perches are a tiny bit of what keeping pigeons is about, and I think it shouldn't take that much effort to make an argument about.
and remember there are people reading this, you better off discuss your personal stuff in PM's if anyone feel that he is not able to accept other ideas then you're not bounded to comment.


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi all.

Just a quick update re my cleaning issues. I removed the stationery roosts as suggested. AND, I replaced them with low-level ground perches; I designed them so that the birds can perch off the ground; and, yet, not so that other birds can perch under them. 

And, so far, they seem to really, really like them. The very first afternoon, these new perches were full up. And, at night, there are no arguments, all are filled ... AND, no more messy birds.

I'm still on my regiment of cleaning the really bad messed birds. And, I've opened their swimming pool daily so that they can begin self-cleaning again.

All seems to be working for now. The changes I made seem to not have caused issues or stresses with my birds. In fact, I plan to build more of the low-level perches for use throughout my flyway, as well. I think it's a hit.

Thanks again for all your advice and support.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## Abdulbaki (Jul 31, 2013)

Glad to hear about your pigeons .. can you take a picture of the loft (and perches) I want to have a bigger idea of what everyone is arguing about here.


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi Abdulbaki.

Will do. I really think I figured out a meaningful solution. Happy pigeons, happier me. :-D.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad you figured out a way for them. If all are taken at night, then it just goes to show that they do prefer a perch to standing on the floor. Any pigeon likes to perch. And it is instinctual for them to want to be a bit higher up. Good for you!


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi Jay.

Yes, I actually removed only 8x single ^-type perches and 1x crossbar; then replaced these with 18 new styled perches that are a hit; I just checked tonight. I'm going to build more; they really seem to be liking these lots. I think I found something. I will take a picture shortly; and, share it.

Cheers.
Michael.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm so glad you took the extra effort to make them happy and more comfortable. Good job!


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Hi Michael,
I had 3 pairs of fantails I used as fosters for homers and high flyers. Now the homers and highflyers can get excercise by flying out as they are performance breeds but Fantails aren't a performing breed rather fancy/show breed. What I've observed of fantails is that they love to coo and dance. This cooing,running back and forth and dancing is the only exercise they can get. What my experience and observation says is that the loft setup should be according to the breeds that we are going to keep in it,for their own good. In my experience fantails live happy,clean and fit in big nest boxes and on flat surfaces. I would root for big bench-type surfaces. In my first post in this thread I pointed towards it but since the on-going controversy in this thread,I kept mum. But now I think I should come out with my opinion. But this is just my experience and I want to wish you good luck with yours.
And fantails shake their heads and make their heads touch their backs, and they coo and dance beautifully which perches can prevent them from doing. Also they can't land/sit properly on high perches as their behavioral habits and heavy fanned out tail feathers could imbalance them and get messed up. And how a fantail with messed up feathers look like,you already know that.
If you wanna add perches then you might want to try big paddle perches so that your fantails can coo and dance,what they are famous for.
But this just my opinion.
Thank you


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## Checkmate (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi.

As promised, here are a few pictures regarding the new style low perches I've built for my birds. They really do like these things. No sooner do I sit one done, a bird jumps up and does a little 'quick step' dance. I removed 8x old ^-type perches; I replaced the old with 18x of these. They're such a hit that I plan to build several more for placement throughout.

I'm also making a dent, of sorts, in cleaning the messy feathers. I've dealt with the really messy and messy; now, I'm working on the lesser messy. 

Cheers.
Michael.


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## Jass SamOplay (May 29, 2012)

Smart idea! 
Thanx for sharing Michael...

The real test of these ground perches would be over the time if they could prevent the tail feathers of your birds from getting messy.
Pls do post back in this same thread about their results.

Lovely birds. The ones in first pic are awesome.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

That is nice! good job! although I would call it a stoop not a perch..lol...


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

They look comfortable on them. Very cute! Could even make some a bit higher.


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