# What Would You Call This!



## learning (May 19, 2006)

O.K. boys and girls, what do I put down on the race reports for a color on this one?!  Whatever she is, she sure is pretty to me. Too bad pretty doesn't always win races!

View attachment 12405


This bird is a product of two highly inbred birds that are half brother and sister. Here is the cock:

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As you can tell he is what I call a red velvet.

Here is the hen:

View attachment 12407


She would be a dark check or blue velvet as some folks call them.

So...what do you guys think? I have tentatively called the baby a mosaic although I am sure this is not technically correct. Is this one result from highly inbreeding birds? Maybe this post needs to be on the genetics page.

Anyway, just curious as to everyone's thoughts.

Dan


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## dvtlegend (Oct 20, 2007)

looks like chocolates or brick reds, I have a few of them myself which comes out with plum looking colors.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

dvtlegend said:


> looks like chocolates or brick reds, I have a few of them myself which comes out with plum looking colors.


I'm sorry, I guess my question was vague. I am wondering about the color name for the first bird, not the parents in the second and third photos. Thanks though!

Dan


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Congrats, you have a mosaic 
Part T-pattern red, and part T-pattern blue.


If it were a chocolate (genetically Indigo, but racers call them chocolates), then the tail bar would be missing. And bronze does not look like that. So you have a mosaic  This is the second one I've seen this year, both racers. The other was bred by a guy in our club. His name here is Barn Pigeon and he needs to hurry up with the pictures!


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Congrats, you have a mosaic
> Part T-pattern red, and part T-pattern blue.
> 
> 
> If it were a chocolate (genetically Indigo, but racers call them chocolates), then the tail bar would be missing. And bronze does not look like that. So you have a mosaic  This is the second one I've seen this year, both racers. The other was bred by a guy in our club. His name here is Barn Pigeon and he needs to hurry up with the pictures!


So what are the genetic inputs of the two parents here and how does that combine to what we see here? Just as an FYI, this bird's nestmate is a normal old red check.

Thanks for the insights by the way. That is a lot of knowledge for such a young age! You are to be commended.

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

The more I look at it, the more I question myself. I'm almost positive it ISN'T bronze on a t-pattern (velvet), and that it IS a mosaic. We'll see what others have to say.



It appears that both parents are T-patterns. If the sibling is a regular check, then the parents are also het. for check. T-pattern is dominate to check, so they'd both have to have the check gene in them for it to show.
So like I said, it looks like the bird is a T-pattern in general, it's just somehow the red and blue got fused together. Makes a pretty bird


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> The more I look at it, the more I question myself. I'm almost positive it ISN'T bronze on a t-pattern (velvet), and that it IS a mosaic. We'll see what others have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


O.K. now I will really show my ignorance. What exactly is a T-Pattern?

Dan


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

learning said:


> O.K. now I will really show my ignorance. What exactly is a T-Pattern?
> 
> Dan


T-pattern is the technical term for "velvet" or "dark check". All three are the same thing, and all three are what your birds are 

They got the name from the way the wing shield feathers are all dark except a little light colored 'T' on the tips. The way velvets look can vary in how dark the wings are, but typically you'll see those T's unless you have a bird with two genes for it. That's when you get those solid colored wings.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

If you post a link to this thread in the Genetics forum I'm sure you'll get lots more input. That is a gorgeous bird!

Terry


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

Is it possible someone could just move this thread to the Genetics forum? Having two of the same threads normally causes a little confusion.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> Is it possible someone could just move this thread to the Genetics forum? Having two of the same threads normally causes a little confusion.


I originally thought about putting it in the genetics thread but it ended up here. Yes, if one of the moderators could move it for me that would be great.

Thanks,

Dan


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

It's moved!

Terry


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

Gee...that hen looks very familiar...... As you can see from the picture below, that dark "velvet" color shows up in the Ludo lines. As does the red "velvet". 

IMHO, you have produced a bird very similar to one I produced a few years back, except that it was a "Saddle".....the foremost authority on pigeon colors that I know is Ron Huntley. http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html#

If you are nice, and share a picture, he does reply. 

The good news, you have produced a beautiful bird, and it shows that there is some color variety in the line. But, it also suggests to me, that this pairing is more likely to produce show winners, and not race winners. Perhaps this is an exception, but in the bird I bred above, he was a little on the dumb side, he was lost on his first 5 mile training toss. I'm thinking you have reached the end of the road in terms of inbreeding. I don't know who the cock is, but I suspect it is time to do a complete out cross with this hen. Now, of course if you end up winning some races with this bird, you managed to have the best of both worlds, a gorgeous bird, a race winner who could also win in the shows, and most likely would make a great breeder to do a complete out cross.

I toyed with the idea of producing a whole new line of these dark velvets, but the closer I got in terms of inbreeding, the fewer performance birds I produced, which in theory increased their breeding value, when used as a cross. But, there are only so many nest boxes. One thing for sure, the birds you are producing sure are eye catchers !!


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## risingstarfans (Sep 13, 2008)

*Mosaic*

It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock. 

Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi Dan, I would like to see the tail and the primary flights of the red parent that I understand is a cock .This bird could be a homozyous Indigo.If he is it could explain the deep red color of the wing shield.*GEORGE


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

risingstarfans said:


> It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock.
> 
> Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.


O.K. help me out here. Why does it have to be a cock? Genetics never was my forte!

Dan


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## SmithFamilyLoft (Nov 22, 2004)

risingstarfans said:


> It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock.
> 
> Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.


Well....when reading the "explanations" from the experts....my eyes sort of glaze over, see: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/mosaics.html

Of course, to me saying "little or nothing", might be like saying "something or nothing".....and then with "something" like genetics...."something" could have everything to do with it. If the genes for this were in a particular bird in the background, and that bird shows up several times in the pedigree, it could increase the odds of those traits in the subject bird. I mean the whole point of inbreeding is to increase the odds that the traits we want, will be reproduced into the offspring. But, you may be correct, the breeding of a closely related pair, may not have anything at all to do with this mutation. 

I guess as a breeder, what I hope for, is some sort of new mutation, which creates a "Super Racer" and then hope that mutation can be bred into the colony.


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

SmithFamilyLoft said:


> Well....when reading the "explanations" from the experts....my eyes sort of glaze over, see: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/mosaics.html
> 
> Of course, to me saying "little or nothing", might be like saying "something or nothing".....and then with "something" like genetics...."something" could have everything to do with it. If the genes for this were in a particular bird in the background, and that bird shows up several times in the pedigree, it could increase the odds of those traits in the subject bird. I mean the whole point of inbreeding is to increase the odds that the traits we want, will be reproduced into the offspring. But, you may be correct, the breeding of a closely related pair, may not have anything at all to do with this mutation.
> 
> I guess as a breeder, what I hope for, is some sort of new mutation, which creates a "Super Racer" and then hope that mutation can be bred into the colony.


Yeah, that's just what I need...a loft full of "MUTANTS"!!


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

*Hi DAN, Well I will go against the grain on this one, this bird is not a MOSAIC it is nothing more then a Chocolate splash (INDGO SPLASH for the show people) Geneticly Indigo covers the true color blue and at times does a poor job of it. Now the question is where did the indigo come from on this bird? I believe it comes from the red cock you see mating two indigos will give you from time to time a red mimic, this red mimic (homozyous indigo) will fool most people, into thinking its a red check, and I am sure that is what those that race would call it, after all those that race are intrested in speed and homing not color. I raise Indigo's and have three red check mimics in my loft at this time, and the birds were raised in a individual cage out of a pair of INDIGOS. If you have the January 15 issue of the Racing Pigeon Digest,take a look at pages 45,46.47the KK loft you will see three CHOCOLATES (indigos) that look just like your bird. * .GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

It has a tail bar, so it can't be indigo?


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I don't think it's indigo either*

The head and tail of this bird say it is a blue pigeon. The wings look like a very deep red velvet.

Both parents look at least alittle unusual to me but not remarkable either.

Calling it mosaic makes about as much sense as anything to me and it would be very evenly marked for a mosaic, making it even more unusual. 

Is this bird still moulting in adult plumage?

Bill


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> The head and tail of this bird say it is a blue pigeon. The wings look like a very deep red velvet.
> 
> Both parents look at least alittle unusual to me but not remarkable either.
> 
> ...


The baby I am calling a mosaic has not yet started its first molt...at least not to any great extent. The odd thing about this one was its perfect symetry. It is totally symetrical left to right. Weird.

Dan


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

jbangelfish said:


> The head and tail of this bird say it is a blue pigeon. The wings look like a very deep red velvet.
> 
> Both parents look at least alittle unusual to me but not remarkable either.
> 
> ...


 *HI BILL and BECKEY, If you go to the RON HUNTLEY web site and check out the first picture that he has posted under the indigo modifier you will see a bird carring indigo that still shows a tail bar. While this tail bar is not as strong as some but it still can be seen.Now I have been raising indigos for the past three years, and I have some that show a tail bar. The pair that raised these birds were in a individual cage so there is no chance of another cock threading the hen. Some of the young show a tail that looks like the tail of an ANDALUSIAN but others show a tail bar to some degree. My son will be down for the weekend and I will have him take some pictures. You can also take a look at some pictures that are in the JAN. 15 2009 issue of the Racing Pigeon Digest and on pages 45-47 there birds there that are Chocolates.There are times that indigo does a poor job of masking the blue why this happens I do not know,but I hope to find out some day. * GEORGE


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## MaryOfExeter (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a blue check splash in the loft right now who came from an Indigo cock. His two center tail feathers almost show no bar, but the rest of the feathers look normal. He also has red bars, but they appeared to be more bronze-like. His checks are plain black. Would he just be a poor indigo, or is something else causing part of his tail band to disappear?


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## george simon (Feb 28, 2006)

MaryOfExeter said:


> I have a blue check splash in the loft right now who came from an Indigo cock. His two center tail feathers almost show no bar, but the rest of the feathers look normal. He also has red bars, but they appeared to be more bronze-like. His checks are plain black. Would he just be a poor indigo, or is something else causing part of his tail band to disappear?


*Hi BECKEY, I would not call your bird a poor indigo we see different effects on indigo's, blue bars only show it in the bars, while checks show it in the bar and checks and in some these birds it can show as a strong indigo while in others it will look weak but never the less they are still indigos. I mated the two indigo checks because I wanted to get some red mimics and I have 3 one of which I will mate one to a recessive red, one to a black spread,the last one I would like to mate to another red mimic. *GEORGE


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*Hi George*

Well, I did check Ron's site to have a look at the various expressions of indigo and I don't see any tail bars as strong as this bird's. His looked pretty much what I've produced in mine. I've only had indigo in my own birds since last year so I'm certainly no expert on it. 

This bird is unusual to say the least. 

Bill


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## jbangelfish (Mar 22, 2008)

*I sent the photo to Ron Huntley*

Here's what he had to say.

Bill



It most likely is a blue something with a heterozygous saddle mark gene giving it all that splashed effect. The wing covets are a mosaic ash red in t-pattern kite. This bird was fertilized by two of his sire’s sperms; one being an ash red the other being blue, both being t-patterns kits. Not sure which parent donated the splash single saddle mark gene.



Ron


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