# UPDATE - "Help, my pigeon may be dying"!



## misty

*Help, my pigeon may be dying!!*

Hi guys, I hope someone can help. I brought my pigeon to the vet today. She has been breathing fast and panting. Her whole body moves when she breathes and it's like her wings are vibrating. She seems to have trouble pooping. When she tries to poop, sometimes it somes out and sometimes not. She's antisocial and normally she's very social. The vet said it could be either a ? parasite (which he gave her a shot for), ? pneumonia, or some kind of a ? gastro problem. He said her abdomen feels like it's expanded with air. He gave me antibiotics (Baytril) which may help but he's not too hopeful and said she may only live about 2 more weeks!! Can anybody give me advice. I am desperate and can't live without her!! She's an Archangel pigeon about 8 years old, thanks.


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## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I am so sorry to hear that your bird is not doing well. A little more information may be helpful.

How old is this bird?
Do you know if it is a hen for sure?
When did you first notice she was not feeling well and were the symptoms sudden or gradual?
Is there any any nasal or eye discharge?
Is she your only bird?
How is she eating and drinking, what do the droppings look like?
What dosage of Baytril did your vet prescribe.
Did he do any lab work such as fecal samples or blood work?

I have to go out so I won't be around for a while, but others will be along to offer more help.

Good luck with her,

Ron


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## Reti

Cathy I am so sorry your bird is so sick. 
Did the vet run any tests? They would be helpful. Did he check for any obstructions or masses in the abdomen?

Do you have your bird on heat? Keep him warm, quiet hydrated and feed him only this formula.
Treesa can tell you about some natural treatments.

Reti


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## feralpigeon

Hi Misty, I'm sorry to hear about your bird and the difficulties she's having right
now. If you are going to go the Baytril route, it would be great if you could 
add Metronidazole/Fishzole/Flagyl to Baytril dosing so that you get a wider
range of organisms, aerobic/anaerobic. Would your vet be willing to give or call
in a script for this? Flagyl would be the human equivavlent. 

Is this bird an indoor bird? What are the physical housing arrangements?

fp


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## Charis

*Help, my pigeon may be dying!!!*

Hi Cathy, I'm so sorry about Misty. 
Tell me, what did the Vet actually do ? Did he do a fecal or a throat swab?
How long has Misty had a hard time breathing? Also, What kind of Baytril and how are you supposed to administer it? Why does he think she may live only more weeks?


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## Guest

misty said:


> When she tries to poop, sometimes it comes out and sometimes not.


To me, it sounds like she's egg bound and in pain and because she's not eating, her crop filled up with air.


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## Victor

That thought crossed my mind too Pigeonperson.

Can you see anything in or around the vent area? 

Has she been active with a male pigeon? Or near one?

Was your vet an avian vet?


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## Pidgey

Well, if it's not egg-binding, then it sounds to me like it could be a reproductive problem. When Winter went through it the second time, her abdomen filled with egg yolks (ectopic egg and associated egg-peritonitis). It felt soft and yet expanded. I suppose you could say that it felt like it was filled with air. She had ectopic eggs the second time but through a rent in the oviduct. Infection can set in and cause all kinds of mischief. In such a case, you'd likely see some anaerobic infection as well and it would be really good to augment the Baytril with Metronidazole as previously suggested, or Keflex (Cephalexin). According to the Big Book, it's possible for ectopic eggs to reabsorb as long as they're not busy trying to make more eggs and you sustain the antibiotic therapy.

However, it is sometimes necessary to surgically remove the oviduct. If this is the case, then you'd want to build the bird back up with the antibiotics for a week or two, or the likelihood of losing her during the surgery goes up pretty high. If your vet is willing to review the veterinary materials that apply to the types of reproductive disorders, symptoms, treatments and surgical procedures, including the necessary anaesthetic requirements, you can email me for the applicable materials.

For a past thread that dealt with a ruptured oviduct, click the link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Misty, how is your beautiful Archangel doing this morning?

fp


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## Charis

Yes Cathy, I woke up several times during the night wondering how Misty is doing.


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## Pidgey

I gotta' go for awhile but I emailed her some pages on oviduct problems as well as anesthesia information for her vet if it comes to that. I gotta' admit that I tend to think that Newfoundland is probably a backwater kinda' place so options may be severely limited. In Winter, the egg yolk material ended up making quite a bit of stuff and took up a lot of space. It (if this is the correct diagnosis--I know good and well that it doesn't have to be) sometimes becomes a mechanical problem of not enough room left for the expansion required by breathing. In that kind of case, simply clearing the abdomen would be very helpful. If that's not an option, then oxygen supplementation may bring temporary relief.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Incidentally, for those who are following this thread, Misty is currently posting another thread in the Sick & Injured section.

Pidgey


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## misty

Thanks for all your questions - here are the answers:

She is a hen for sure, about 8 years old. I noticed her not feeling well a couple of days ago. She has no nasal or eye discharge and she is our only bird. She lives in our house (very clean environment). She seems to be eating and drinking "ok". Her droppings are smaller than normal but so far look the same. I am giving her 0.04 ml of a 50mg/ml solution of Baytil (orally) twice a day. I spoke to the vet this morning and he said she has an air sac in her abdomen the size of a plum. He said fecal samples or blood work wouldn't help?!?! We could get her x-rayed but she probably would not survive a surgery. He said she is very sick and her prognosis is not good. He said she has been sick for a while but she was nesting in the closet for the past 2-3 weeks (on an artificial egg) and so she wasn't out around much, she left her "egg" 2 days ago and that's when we saw that she wasn't "right". The vet really doesn't think she's egg-bound, she hasn't laid her own egg in about 2 years. I just can't believe that I can't do anything else only sit back and watch her die!! Her symptoms are just like the ones that Lady Tarheel posted about last fall. She's puffed out, breathing heavy, her whole body moves in/out, up/down. She's panting and there is a slight "whistle" coming from her. The vet doesn't know why or how she's got this air space but if the shot (parasites) or the antibiotics don't work (and he doesn't think they will), she may only live another week or two!! Any other suggestions??

You can see pictures of her (Ruffles) at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/mistruff


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## feralpigeon

I saw pictures of your bird up at your website, she is a beautiful girl and looks
very much like my Ozzie. 

I still would like to see your vet give you or if you already have on hand Metronidazole/Flagyl that you add this to Baytril dosing as you will cover a 
broader range of bacteria w/the combination.

I also noticed that you have cats and wondered if it was possible that one of 
your cats could have taken a bat at the bird and not have been noticed.

I have both and every once in a while one cat in particular gets a tad 
jealous but they don't get to mingle unless I'm there. Just thinking that it's easy for accidents to occur.

fp


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## mr squeaks

Cat thought occurred to me too - especially since Squeaks is housemate to 3 cats!

Also, in that one picture, she's in a plant. Is the plant real? Could she have taken a bite? Some plants are poisonous to birds and cats...

Sure hope she recovers!

Sending HUGS and HEALING THOUGHTS!!


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## feralpigeon

BTW, yeast and bacteria are a couple of things that come to mind that can cause gas in addition to something more structural.

fp


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## jazaroo

What is catching my eye is the dose of Baytril, .04cc of a 50mg/mL solution is around 2mg, if my math is right, this seems quite low, Cathy are you sure this dose is correct?

Ron

_Thanks fp. Cathy to be as accurate as possible, would you have an exact weight for your little one from the vet visit or be able to weigh her with accuracy?_


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## feralpigeon

jazaroo said:


> What is catching my eye is the dose of Baytril, .04cc of a 50mg/mL solution is around 2mg, if my math is right, this seems quite low, Cathy are you sure this dose is correct?
> 
> Ron


Good one, Ron.

fp


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## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

I am so sorry to hear about Ruffles, she is a lovely bird. 

Since she has had this for some time, her immune system is probably not working at peak performance, and you should try to use every healing product you can to help her, since it isn't quite clear what is going on.

In addition to what was recommended, you should give her a garlic capsule once a day, the soft gel kind or, Allicidin, for building immune reserves. Echinacea drops, about 1/4 of a human dose, the kind that is alcohol free-for building the immune system.. A drop of colloidal silver for infection, and a drop of organic Neem oil for fungus and inflammation. 

I wouldn't even hesitate to give her some probiotics, especially in the form of kefir for any yeast problem.


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## Skyeking

I will link the two threads together.


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## Pidgey

Well, if she had an air sac that was inflated and it wasn't venting, it might be possible to at least evacuate the bulk of the air with a small hypodermic needle inserted into it to give her more breathing room. If you had a baseline weight (before she got sick) and compared it to the weight today, you might get a better idea whether or not the increased abdominal volume was due to a solid mass versus an air bubble. An X-Ray would also probably tell the tale on that one as it would either show as a relative darkness for a gas-filled cavity or as a relative lightness for a more solid mass.

If there is a whistle, then a nebulization treatment course might be in order like a Gentamicin/Saline mix.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC

Hi Cathy

I am so very sorry Ruffles is sick. She is beautiful.

I'm in a quandary about what to tell you. If the thread you mentioned is about the pigeon we had with what we believe to be air sac mites, then you can put a drop of Ivermectin on her neck to treat them. We also sprayed ours a few times with Scalex. Our pigeon never seemed sick but upon any exertion did open mouth breathing pretty badly. After several treatments he seemed fine and is still doing well in the aviary. There was never any abdominal swelling.

And, I hate to even mention this but we had an elderly pigeon, Gracie, who was over 12 years old. Gracie also lived in our home, never in the aviary. She had symptoms of lethargy, weight gain, and a swollen abdomen. She sometimes acted like she was confused and didn't know where she was. After a few days of this, we took her to the vet who decided to aspirate the abdomen to at least draw the fluid out and make her more comfortable while other tests were run. When she drew out the fluid it was bloody. Our vet said that in all cases that she had seen like that it indicated cancer. She stated she would not recover from this and could suffer a great deal. We agreed to euthanasia and I stayed with Gracie until the end. This vet, in the 14 or more years we have taken birds to her, has only recommended euthanasia, at best, more than 3-4 times so I trust her judgment. It was one of the hardest things I have ever gone through because Gracie was truly a member of the family for a long time. 

At best, all we can do on the forum is guesstimate and share experiences. I would take Ruffles back to the vet and see if he will aspirate some of the contents of the abdomen to see what is going on. I would be interested in knowing how he determined that it is an air sac that is inflated, or, some other swelling in the abdomen. I am just not that familiar with all the locations of air sacs in pigeons.

Cathy, I decided to post this on the forum rather than return your e-mail to keep the "flow" of the thread intact. 

Please try not to worry so much but I know that is almost impossible for you right now.


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## feralpigeon

Cathy emailed me w/the weight of her bird, Ruffles:

the vet weighed her at 427 grams!!

fp


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## Maggie-NC

Wonder what the average weight of archangels is?


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## Pidgey

That ain't air. Archangels are said to be smaller than the standard feral in THE PIGEON by Levi.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Lady Tarheel said:


> Wonder what the average weight of archangels is?


I have two, Maggie as you know. One is the light bronze like Ruffles and the other is the darker bronze.

Ozzie the lighter colored one who looks just like Ruffles is about 350 grams, my other, Harriett is right around 300 grams.

Ozzie appears much larger than Harriett.

fp


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## Pidgey

Pattie Cakers had the respiratory thing, too, when she had her problem a year-and-a-half ago:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=163289&postcount=15

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Hi All and Cathy,

I received a PM from Cathy with Ruffle's exact weight, it is 427 grams. Although this weight is in the range of "normal", the possibility can't be ruled out that some of it may be from ectopic eggs, previously mentioned, or other mass. However, even given that possibility, the 2mg dose of Baytril in my opinion is far too low, I recently had a hen with a suspected gastric infection and my avian vet prescribed 10mg BID (twice a day) and she weighed 320 grams.

So Cathy I am going to suggest two things, the first is that we dilute down the concentration of the Baytril you have. You have 50mg/mL and the problem as I see it, with no offense to your vet, is that he deals usually with larger animals and this is the dose concentration he uses on them. In all the years I have been prescribed Baytril from avian vets it has been in the 20-25mg/mL range. The problem is that even if the dose you are giving was correct, and I have already said I feel it is too low, at .04mL this is such a small concentrated dose that if you dribble even a little or the bird shakes its head, a good part of the dose can go missing.

The second is that we increase the dose fourfold, to about 8mg BID (twice a day). Now back to the diluting, if you draw a dose now of .16cc and then draw roughly the same amount of water you will end up with about .30cc in the syringe. Draw the plunger back 3/4 way and move it up and down to mix this well, then slowly bringing it to the top and then dose Ruffles. This way if a drop goes errant, the bird will still receive the majority of the medicine it needs. I based this dosing, which is slightly conservative, on the metabolic dosing formula provided by Dr. Dorrestein in Avian Medicine (2000) where based on this bird's weight, I worked out the Baytril dose to be 9.43mg BID.

Cathy, please make sure you double check the information on the concentration and vet prescribed dose is/was accurate.

Hope this helps a little for now,

Ron


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## Charis

When I have a really sick bird that has been prescribed Baytril, I often start the treatment with the injectable form { first two to three doses only because it will bruse] especially when their sysyem is moving slowly. For those of you that haven't done injections and feel uncomfortable with them, it's really easy once some one shows you how. I used to feel squeemish at the thought.
Injectable Baytril is good to have on hand especially for those of us that rehab a lot of birds.


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## feralpigeon

Thanks for giving Cathy a more realistic dose rate, Ron. She could probably 
front load the dosing since Ruffles doesn't really have the level in the blood 
stream that she should, meaning to double Ron's dose rate for the first 24 hours, 
I think some vets will do this when prescribing sometimes for 48 hours. 
Still want to add that if going the antibiotic route it would likewise
be great to add Flagyl to Baytril to reach a broader rangeof organisms.


fp


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## jazaroo

Yes fp, I agree, good thought.

Ron


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## Maggie-NC

When I made my earlier post I couldn't remember whether Gracie had a breathing problem so I went to my notes. I want to share these notes in hopes they may help, if not Ruffles (because she may not be suffering the same thing as Gracie) then someone else.

Please bear in mind that when I write longhand notes they are about as chatty as my posts.  "From time to time, Gracie started having periods of acting like she was lost, wouldn't have anything to do with us - lasting a few days. In early 2/01, she started acting strange - would get on back of couch and just stand there as if she didn't know where she was. She started drinking a lot of water & stopped eating. Took her to vet the first week in 2/2001. The only thing found was one worm casing. Blood work was done and sent to lab. Results showed no problems with liver, kidneys, etc. Cultures also checked out ok. Gave her 2 doses of Pyrental 0.05 for worms and prescribed 0.22 Baytril for 7 days. She seemed to get better and would do her usual "stroll" into the family room after pooping. She flew some. She became ill again. Would stand in one spot, puffed out, wouldn't get in her bed which she usually loved. Put her on heating pad & also started hand feeding her but nothing helped. Went back to vet 2/15/01 and 2/16/01 and they put her back on Baytril. Did no good. Took her back 2/19/01 because she had gained a lot of weight, had abdominal swelling and WAS STRUGGLING TO BREATHE. Vet decided to draw some fluid from her abdominal area to make her more comfortable but the syringe filled with mostly blood.........."


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## jazaroo

Cathy, another thought I had was it might be best if instead of PMing' us individually you posted directly to your thread, this way if any of us are not around there will be others that see the information sooner and be able to respond sooner. 

Also, I want to add my voice to the others, that have suggested getting Ruffles on Metronidazole or Keflex, in addition to the Baytril, as soon as possible. Your vet should be able to make one of these available to you on Monday, doing this is very important. I think it's imperative as well that he determine what is causing the abdominal pressure on Monday. I was in contact with Pidgey and he says in addition to the material he has already sent you he would be prepared to consult directly with your vet to answer any questions if it turns out the Ruffles does indeed need surgery.

Lastly, here is a listing for vets in Newfoundland, http://www.vetworld.com/vetworld/newfoundland.html , I noticed that Sunrise bills itself as having experience with exotics. Now I know Ruffles is not an exotic, but someone with exotic experience may be something to consider as they would be more familiar with smaller more delicate creatures in surgery, just a thought.

Ron


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## misty

*Update*

Hi guys, 
I want to thank you all VERY MUCH for all your help and advice. Ruffles is no better and no worse!! I did bring her to the Sunrise Clinic, Dr. DeZeeuw, he's the best in the city. I am going to talk to him tomorrow about getting an x-ray done. I need to know what's going on inside. I will also ask him about Metronidazole. I did increase the concentration of the Baytril. For sure I will keep you all updated as to what happens. I mentally need to try and prepare myself for the possibliity that she may not make it!! This is going to really kill me, I'm already a wreck!! I have to keep telling myself:

"DON'T CRY BECAUSE IT'S OVER, SMILE BECAUSE IT HAPPENED"

Thanks again


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## Feefo

Did the vet prescribe the low dose of Baytril? My vet did that too, it is because the dose for cats is 5mg per kilo (higher doses can cause blindness in cats). As he has a lot of feline patients he just assumed that the pigeon dose is the same. I haven't corrected him.

I hope that having the higher dose will help Ruffles recover, he is a beautiful bird.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon

Cathy,

Thanks so much for the update, I know this is a difficult time for you
right now and you have alot on your mind. I hope your talk w/Dr. Dezeeuw
goes well and that he will provide some of the diagnostics tests that you
would like to have done. You may also want to mention the dose rate to him 
if you think that you will run out w/the increased dosage of Baytril and
need him to prescribe more to ensure that you don't. Maybe explain to him
what Cynthia just shared w/you about her own vet.

I looked through all 50 some odd photos of Ruffles that you provided the
link for and Ruffles is just one beautiful pigeon. You'll all be in my thoughts 
and prayers, hoping all resolves with the best possible outcome.

fp


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## Pidgey

To me, it sounds mostly like my experience with Pattie Cakers' buildup of inflammatory response debris. Once I got her on antibiotics for a few days, she was pretty stable. If you clicked on that one link earlier, you'd get to read that post and see the pictures of the thing we got out of her. More often than not, general practice vets don't have a clue that that can happen in a pigeon. That ball was the size of a large plum.

Some things for the vet to consider if he's willing to operate are whether he's going to remove the oviduct or just clear stuff out, repair any damage (rents in the oviduct and that kind of thing) and then close. Pigeons actually do very well in surgeries like this because they're a very tough species. Incidentally, the vet's free to use a continuous type suture pattern if he fixes a rent in the oviduct as well as when he closes the abdominal muscles.

Anyhow, if he chooses to go ahead with it (and he may not have a choice sooner or later), something that he should know is that in order to remove the oviduct, he needs to use an occluding clamp like this:

http://www.germedusa.com/pc-33496-5786-tube-occluding-clamp-straight-6-12-smooth-jaws.aspx

...to clamp off the terminal ends. Avian tissues don't deal well with the crushing strength of mosquito clamps and hemostats so you need a clamp that gives a little relief. If you look at the illustration for that clamp above, they show a side profile drawing that shows the gap between the jaws in the clamped position. This is clamped around the oviduct as near to the ovaries as practical and surgical scissors are used to cut across the oviduct (on the opposite side of the clamp from the ovaries--very important!) within about a 1/4" of the clamp. That gives enough space to ligate the clamped end with absorbable sutures (PDS is preferred but chromic gut may be used). 

He shouldn't even try to remove the ovaries--there's a major artery in there and one nick and it's all over. The cloacal end of the oviduct can then be clamped, cut, the end ligated and then surgical closure of first the abdominal muscles and then the skin.

It's also best to manage the anesthetic so that you're seeing occasional light response to the cuts. You don't want to see thrashing and you will want someone holding the bird down. What you don't want is for the bird to be completely immobilized by the anesthetic because it's just too easy to drift off for good in a case like this.

Pidgey


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## jazaroo

Cathy, thanks for the update. All of us here are pulling for Ruffles and you. If you need any kind of information or need opinions on anything, please know we are here for you. 

Cynthia, thank you for sharing that information on Baytril dosing, as to why the vet may have prescribed only 2mg. I did not know that higher doses effected cats this way, good to know.

All the best,

Ron


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## Skyeking

misty said:


> Hi guys,
> I want to thank you all VERY MUCH for all your help and advice. Ruffles is no better and no worse!! I did bring her to the Sunrise Clinic, Dr. DeZeeuw, he's the best in the city. I am going to talk to him tomorrow about getting an x-ray done. I need to know what's going on inside. I will also ask him about Metronidazole. I did increase the concentration of the Baytril. For sure I will keep you all updated as to what happens. I mentally need to try and prepare myself for the possibliity that she may not make it!! This is going to really kill me, I'm already a wreck!! I have to keep telling myself:
> 
> "DON'T CRY BECAUSE IT'S OVER, SMILE BECAUSE IT HAPPENED"
> 
> Thanks again


Hi Cathy,

I am sorry Ruffles seems no better or no worse, just give it some time for the meds to work, and we are sure pulling for her. I know how anxious you are feeling. God bless and watch over you and Ruffles.


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## Charis

Hi Cathy,
Checking in on you and Ruffles? Any change? Can't get you off my mind.


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## misty

*Latest Update!!*

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your kind words. Ruffles was x-rayed today. It showed her liver is 5 - 7 times larger than normal???? Because of this, it's pushing on everything else and therefore the laboured breathing and her odd shape. Does anybody know anything about this??? The vet is not going to do anything else, I guess there is nothing else we can do. He said she could go anytime and he can't see her living for more than a month. Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions?? I can't find out much about it on the internet. 
Thanks!!


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## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Well, at least we seem to know now where the problem lies. Did the vet give you a precise diagnosis?

There are few things we can do to help support and detoxify the liver. The first thing I would like you to do is put Ruffles on Lactulose. Lactulose reduces the the toxic potential of elevated blood ammonia concentration due to liver dysfunction. You will give her .15cc twice daily. Lactulose is available from behind the pharmacist counter at almost all Shoppers Drug Marts, without a prescription (the pharmacist may mention that this is a laxative, but yes, this is the right stuff, Lactulose has other uses than as a laxative, in adjusted doses, plus it will help her by softening her droppings a little).

Please go to the health food store and purchase the following: N-Acetyl Cystein, Alpha Lipoic Acid and a Multiple B Vitamin that contains the following: choline, inositol, and methionine (the less other vitamins than these, the better). You will give her a small pinch of each of the first two twice a day, by pinch I mean about 1/2 the size of a match head. The second, the Multi-B Vitamin you will give 1/4 the size of a match head once a day for a week the go to once very second day for a week then to once a week. You can dissolve the all in water and give it to her at the same time, don't use too much water, maybe .50cc. While at the health food store please buy some Milk Thistle and give her I/8 of a capsule twice a day for the next month, you can dissolve this in the water as well.

One of our birds developed fatty liver disease a number of years ago and this is what fixed her, with this condition her liver was extremely enlarged.

Could you please describe in detail what Ruffle's diet consists of (please take your time and don't leave anything out) and if she has access to anything that could be causing her to have a toxic overload, such as chippng paint, does she eat at any house plants you have around, household chemicals (or any chemicals), what's her cage made from, is there any chance her food could have developed some mold in it, anything new or different in the home?

I know this might not be possible, but is there any chance that your vet could put the x-rays on his light box and you take photos of them with a digital camera and post them to this site. If this is possible, take a lot of shots, as some will be better than others, also, if your camera has a close-up option (macro option), take some using it (pigeonperson, I added this in based on your later post).

Are you continuing with the Baytril, and what did he say about adding Metronidazole?

I hope this helps for now and don't give up hope,

Ron


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## Pidgey

For an enlarged liver, the keyword is: hepatomegaly.

In birds, the causes are pretty numerous:

Egg Peritonitis (we've discussed that)

Viral Infections (not too likely here)

Bacterial Infections (too many to recount)

Chlamydophila (Chlamydiosis; Ornithosis; Psittacosis... treatment is Doxycycline; seriously doubt that one)

Hepatic Lipidosis (the bird got too fat... treatment is the bird has to lose weight. Did you give the bird too many fatty treats?)

Ingestion of Aflatoxins (from moldy food, especially peanuts... may be no treatment)

Various Cancers

Does anything in that list stand out? Has this bird always been fairly heavy?

Pidgey


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## Guest

Cathy,
I wish the news were better. Would you be willing to keep her on the Baytril because you have nothing to lose by doing that. At least you can feel you are doing something to try and help.


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## feralpigeon

To Ron's list, let's add Milk Thistle which has the description of: "Hepatoprotective, hepatoregenerative and potent antioxidant" in _Table 10.2, Herbal Remedies for Birds_ listed in _Clinical Avian Med by Harrison and Lightfoot_ and indications for usage in the same table are listed as "Hapatitis, hepatic lipidosis, sirrhosis, bile duct inflammation, and hepatic toxicosis."

Perhaps a product such as this but with an extrapolated dose rate that I believe Treesa Gray may know or be able to find out from the manufacturer:

http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdetail&item_id=3594

Also mentioned in the liver section of Clinical Avian Medicine is a seed diet too
rich in sunflower seeds. So you my want to take a look at the diet that Ruffles has had over the years and think about some changes in that. There are foods that when in a liver crisis, the doctor will recommend to patients. Some of these foods may be irrevelant where birds are concerned, yet others
could be incorporated into the diet. Rice and bannanas are both good liver 
foods, you might think about how to introduce these into the diet. 
Ferals will eat the 'just ripe' banannas but not ripe or spotted ones. 

Instead of always having food available, you may need to go to a system where you have more control over what the bird eats. So if the bird has healthy snacks during the day....and seeds get put down only for so long--maybe 15 minutes per morning and evening session, the bird may nibble on good things throughout the day and eat a more rounded selection of seeds in a.m./p.m.
as a result of not enough time to pick and choose. I know someone who 
makes a game out of leaving lettuce hanging in bunches so they get to pull
on it and have some fun....seems to work out very well.

I'm sure others will be along w/nutritional, alternative healing modality support, in addition to anything and everything that comes to mind that might
be helpful for Ruffles right now.

fp


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## Skyeking

misty said:


> Hi Guys,
> Thanks for all your kind words. Ruffles was x-rayed today. It showed her liver is 5 - 7 times larger than normal???? Because of this, it's pushing on everything else and therefore the laboured breathing and her odd shape. Does anybody know anything about this??? The vet is not going to do anything else, I guess there is nothing else we can do. He said she could go anytime and he can't see her living for more than a month. Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions?? I can't find out much about it on the internet.
> Thanks!!


Misty,

I'm so sorry to hear about Ruffles, and I would have posted sooner but I didn't go on my computer until this morning.

You need to try the Reishi. The one I use has shown to be an excellent support for liver issues,chronic and otherwise, it is human product, but was also approved for use in pigeons. I have used it myself, and it is a great addition to the garlic caps.

I would also recommend starting a detox, as already pointed out with the use of Milk Thistle-as it helps in overall liver detox, my rehabber friend has used it for years on her birds, where toxic liver is suspected. Grade 10 turmeric is also used for liver detox. 

As fp mentioned I would also watch the diet and re-evaluate everything the bird is eating. Pigeons are used to getting a mixed bag of tricks, which is really geared for optimum health. I find myself guilty of pampering them and giving them extra sunflower too, and it is probably not helping them in the long run.

I would also try the Nano DHLA, a great antioxident and can also be used on the bird.

It would be best to start slow and work to maximum dosage.

Please e-mail if you are interested and would like these products.


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## Guest

Treesa,
I hope this vet knows what he's talking about and that he's not mistaking an egg for the liver.


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## feralpigeon

pigeonperson, I think we all wish this diagnosis would go away, but in the mean time, that is what we have...

fp


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## Guest

fp,
I know. I'm wishing that too. It's just that one of the symptoms in the beginning was that this bird was trying to squeeze something out of the vent and that's not a symptom of a swollen liver. An egg would be 5-7 times the size of the liver. I know I have no right to feel suspicious but I can't shake this feeling of a wrong diagnosis.
Cathy, would there be anything wrong in calling the vet and asking him if this could be an egg and not the liver? This may be the only time you have to ask that question.


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## Skyeking

pigeonperson said:


> Treesa,
> I hope this vet knows what he's talking about and that he's not mistaking an egg for the liver.


pigeonperson,

Either way....these products support the body and liver for optimum health, not to mention it will help kick the immune system in gear.

The original supportive measures for egg related issues should definitely be continued as well, since we just don't know.

This is why herbal/organic products are such a big plus, when you don't really know what is going on, they heal without the side effects-when properly used.


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## Guest

Treesa,
You aren't wrong in what you're writing and suggesting. You know what I'm trying to say. Something doesn't feel right about this but of course, I could be way off base.


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## Pidgey

In the Big Book it says that hepatomegaly is a pretty common diagnosis--there's a lot of reasons that they can get it. The shell of the egg in cross section will show up real well on a radiograph so I'd think that it's unlikely that he got that wrong. Seeing an enlarged liver on a radiograph is more of an art, though.

Anyhow, it does mention the Lactulose and some of the other things in the Big Books for liver support (helping to take the load off of the liver). If there's trichomoniasis or a bacterial infection, those would have to be dealt with. You don't get hepatomegaly for no reason. I'd still like to see Metronidazole or something that takes care of anaerobic infections being thrown into the mix.

If, in the end, it goes south (the bird doesn't make it), it sure would be nice to get a basic necropsy so that if the vet's wrong, at least he'll learn something.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

pigeonperson said:


> Treesa,
> You aren't wrong in what you're writing and suggesting. You know what I'm trying to say. Something doesn't feel right about this but of course, I could be way off base.


Yep, there maybe more then meets the eye.


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## Guest

Pidgey,
Let's say the vet is right so going on that premise, that doesn't mean nothing should be tried. The liver was not biopsied so we don't know if it's fatty liver syndrome nor do we know if there are cancer cells in there. If it is fatty liver, there could be fatty tumors elsewhere too because by this time, the liver would be cirrhotic and sloughing off fat into the abdominal cavity. Also, as far as we know, no blood or fecal tests were taken. 
I think you're right and there would be no harm in treating with Flagyl, Baytril and a canker medication plus the supplements Treesa is suggesting. Worms can get into the liver and I would worm the bird too. 
It may be too late and according to the vet, it is but that shouldn't stop Cathy from trying anything that will keep hope alive.


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## feralpigeon

pigeonperson said:


> ....... Worms can get into the liver and I would worm the bird too.......


My thoughts as well, that there could also be a worm issue or canker issue
going on w/the liver. It may be a good idea for Cathy to try Treesa's Chapparel
method and see if this yields any results from the intestinal tract. Adding Flagyl
to the mix would be a good route as well.

fp


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## jazaroo

Well, if the bird is going to be wormed I have Pyrantel Pamoate, Ivermectin or WormOut Gel (Praziquantel+Oxfendazole), I could send Cathy, while I am at it I could toss in some Cipro and Metronidazole. Cathy, would you be able to let us know what your vet used for the "parasites" and at what dose?

Ron


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## Guest

Not that any of these meds would help (we don't know) but it only goes to show that people who own pets of any kind need certain medications on hand. Anything can happen anytime.


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## Pidgey

misty said:


> Hi guys, I hope someone can help. I brought my pigeon to the vet today. She has been breathing fast and panting. Her whole body moves when she breathes and it's like her wings are vibrating. She seems to have trouble pooping. When she tries to poop, sometimes it somes out and sometimes not. She's antisocial and normally she's very social. *The vet said it could be either a ? parasite (which he gave her a shot for), ?* pneumonia, or some kind of a ? gastro problem. He said her abdomen feels like it's expanded with air. He gave me antibiotics (Baytril) which may help but he's not too hopeful and said she may only live about 2 more weeks!! Can anybody give me advice. I am desperate and can't live without her!! She's an Archangel pigeon about 8 years old, thanks.


Guess we better find out what the shot was before prescribing anything else...

Pidgey


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## Reti

If indeed it is liver disease, then all those meds would only make it worse. Most meds are metabolized in the liver and a sick liver cannot do it's job. The risks are for the unmetabolized meds to reach toxic levels and for the liver to have to deal with more toxic substances.
Unless we know for sure it is bacterial, I don't see any point in giving Cipro/Flagyl/Baytril or even deworming. We don't know it is worms, in fact we have no idea what is wrong with this bird.
Liver function tests would tell us a lot, I don't know why the vet didn't take any.
Enlarged liver can also have a viral hepatitis cause. The treatment for this is rest, good diet and as stress free as possible.
Lactulose, is a good choise to prevent hepatic encephalopathy which one of the causes of death in liver disease. But it also causes diarrhea and dehydration. So, the input/output must be monitored. That is hard to do in a bird.
Instead of Lactulose you can use Neomycin. It is not absorbed in the system, just cleanses the intestine of the ammonia causing bacteria which is causing hepatic encephalopathy.

Reti


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## Pidgey

I remember being sick once and going to my doctor when I lived in a small town. He had quite a bit of lab stuff in his office that could do a lot of basic work pretty easily. They drew some blood to check whether it was bacterial or viral. I never did know what they were checking for, but I think it had to do with the white blood cell count. Is this kinda' thing ever done with a bird?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

I'm not sure what Misty meant by what she said about the vet, but it did kinda' sound like the vet wanted to wash his hands of it.

Pidgey


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## Guest

Point well taken, Reti. I was kind of grasping for straws but at this point, would it hurt to treat with everything just in case? We know how this is going to end so what harm would it do? Speed up the inevitable?
Pidgey, a complete blood profile taken would tell a vet how the organs are functioning and it includes a white and red cell count.


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## Pidgey

This bird might not have enough blood to give for that. We've seen it happen before and Henny (Brad; Pigeonpal2002) was the one that comes to mind the quickest--she died in his hands after they drew blood. The more separate tests they need to run, the more blood they need so sometimes the drawing of the blood is just too much. This one just feels like a real catch-22 at this point.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking

feralpigeon said:


> My thoughts as well, that there could also be a worm issue or canker issue
> going on w/the liver. It may be a good idea for Cathy to try Treesa's Chapparel
> method and see if this yields any results from the intestinal tract.
> 
> fp



*Hi fp,

The Chaparell will help with a good de-worming, but if we are talking about liver and intestinal flukes, the turmeric, and Neem... as well will help clear that. There are a few other thingd, that would help with that, Indonesiun clove, pumpkin seed, and worm wood, just don't know about using the three for pigeons. *


Reti,

Reishi is a wonderful treatment measure for hepatitis and any other liver related problem. It's shown to have significate effect on it. 

You can bet if the bird has a toxic swollen liver, that flukes and worms also are also present.

I would clean the bird out, and include nutritional therapy, regardless of tests.


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## Guest

Well, in thinking about it, this is one bird I wouldn't take any blood tests on. The liver creates the clotting factor and it's entirely possible that this bird could bleed to death if one were taken.


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## Pidgey

That's what happened to Henny--they had a real hard time stopping the bleeding and I expect that she didn't have much to give. In the necropsy, the biggest finding was a bunch of Streptococcus (4+) of the alpha hemolytic type in the lungs. That alone would have meant that the bird had a reduced hematocrit. You stand to lose a lot if you can't stop bleeding under those circumstances--a real double-whammy. You'd almost want to have already drawn blood from a donor and have it standing by for intraosseus transfusion. You're going to have a hard time finding a vet that'd be willing to do that, though.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey

Pigeonperson,

You can read about that case here, although it's in the middle of a long thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?p=131750

Pidgey


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## Guest

Pidget, Thanks for the link. I read it.


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## jazaroo

Reti, good post. If the consensus was that the bird need worming, I was just letting people know what I had available to send.

With the Lactulose, when my vet prescribed it for my Parrot I did not find that it really changed the consistency of her droppings. She took .20cc twice a day, but she was slightly heavier than Ruffles. I think at these lower doses its laxative effects are reduced and it's more therapeutic for the liver. Reti, I don't know whether Neomycin would be able to be an alternative, as this will need to be prescribed and Cathy can pick up the Lactulose right away at the corner drug store.

I still think that Metronidazole should be added, at a conservative dose, as the information I have that it is a drug of choice for liver infections.

Ron


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## Reti

Yeah, I guess the neomycin is out, I think you need a prescription for this.
They could draw blood if they administer sq vit K first. Then she shouldn't bleed out. I would take that chance if I was to know what is wrong with my bird.
But then again, if the bird has end stage liver disease anything you'd give her now won't help.

Reti


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## Pidgey

The higher diagnostics are pretty academic if the vet's not going to do anything more.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon

Reti, good points regarding the taxing of an organ that is already having significant problems. We don't know specifically what is wrong, although
I did think that using an herbal wormer might be worth the effort. Do you 
believe that the herbal wormer would be a burden to Ruffle's organ as well?

fp


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## feralpigeon

OK, I missed Treesa's post on herbal wormers that could be used. I do agree
w/Ron that that Metronidazole should be tried in addition to Treesa's recommedations for herbal wormers. In the event that it is end stage, then 
making comfortable is about all that could be done and it is possible that Ruffles may find some relief from either of these two items. If not end stage, then it is
worth it even more so.

fp


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## misty

*Latest Update - Please Read!!*

Hello again guys,
I finally have a little time to write!
I brought Ruffles for x-rays yesterday at 9am, the vet phoned me at 4pm and said "comparing her x-rays to the 3 books I have, her liver is enlarged 5-7 times". Then he finally admitted that he is not that experienced in this situation because, and I understand, that not a lot of people in St. John's, Newfoundland, bring their birds in for x-rays, etc... which I suspected when he went form 1-3 possible diagnosis to something completely different after the x-ray. He offered no further help as to what it could be, why or how it happened, nothing!! He is the only "bird" vet in the city.

I will now give you a list of what she's been eating the last 4.5 years:

- sunflower seeds (a lot because that's her favourite!!)
- a mixture os seeds, fruits, nuts, vegetables, "gourmet diet" which is a Hartz product bought at Walmart

Now for the people food (occasional):

- green peas, corn
- yellow split peas, barley, rice, lentils
- bread
- butter (loves!!)
- crackers
- salad

Please tell me what I should stop feeding her and what I should add to her diet.

I've picked up Lactulose and Milk Thistle. I couldn't get N-Acetyl Cystein, Alpha Lipoic Acid or Multiple B Vitamin. Are there any other possibilities?? Just to confirm - Lactulose is .15ml twice daily and Milk Thistle is 1/8 of a capsule twice daily (the capsules I got are 250mg??)

I have to say I'm absolutely mind-boggled by all this information. I feel like I'm in a race against time!! I have a migraine like you wouldn't believe!!! I can't believe how excellent all you guys have been in helping me. You are my only hope and I could never thank you enough, xoxoxoxo!!! I will be eagerly awaiting your replies!!


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## Reti

You can start her on the milk thistle and lactulose.
And NO butter. Also cut back on the sunflower seeds as much as possible. Bread can be left out too, it is usually salted and has no nutritional value for pigeons anyways.
The nuts might not be a good idea for now either.
You can order multivitamins from the pigeon supply houses, they are good and dosed for pigeons. A pet store might have vitamin supplements for birds too.

Reti


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## Whitefeather

misty said:


> Hi Guys,
> Thanks for all your kind words.
> *Ruffles was x-rayed today. It showed her liver is 5 - 7 times larger than normal???? *Because of this, it's pushing on everything else and therefore the laboured breathing and her odd shape.
> 
> *Does anybody know anything about this??? The vet is not going to do anything else,* I guess there is nothing else we can do.
> 
> *He said she could go anytime* and he can't see her living for more than a month. Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions?? I can't find out much about it on the internet.
> Thanks!!


Hi Cathy,
I just wanted to mention, Kim's (KIPPY) pigeon, Judah, was having problems with very little droppings & excessive vomiting with an onset of a crazy cough the day she went to the vet.

I accompanied Judah to the vet. He did take an X-ray & stated her liver was quite enlarged. He showed us the X-ray which also showed quite a few seeds in her crop. 
He said a number of things could be going on. He warned us that she may not pull through, as she was very ill. 
He send Judah home with Baytril & Nystatin. Kim also treated her with Spartrix for possible canker. 

Judah's vomiting continued & her droppings were nil. Kim asked what I would do in this situation. I told her, if it were me, I would d/c all food for a day or so, making sure the bird remained hydrated & continue with the medication. 

Kim did d/c the food. Within a day or two Judah was producing actual droppings. They weren't the best but at least something was getting through. Her vomiting had decreased as well.

Kim pretty much follows Treesa's footsteps with regard to the 'natural' approach. I can't say exactly what natural products Judah was given, but she *did * begin to improve. 

Judah had a rough go, but today she's doing wonderfully & is back with her feathered friends in the aviary.

I realize each case is unique, but it's always nice to post positive results with regard to similar situations. 

Please do keep us posted on how Ruffles is doing.

Cindy


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## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Well, at least the vet was finally up front with you, and you're right, we are in a race against time. I will go a little farther than Reti, no sunflower seeds, maybe ever again, NO butter ever again or crackers or bread, cut the all the nuts out for now, anything with a high fat content is a big no-no right now. Go through the seed mix and make sure no nuts or sunflower seeds. 

Lentils, green peas, corn, split peas, rice, barley are all OK, fruits and vegetables are also OK, keep her diet right now to these, plus the sifted seed mix. As Cindy mentioned below, it may be wise to cut back on her food for the next few days to a week, this will help take a load off her liver, a teaspoon in the morning the same at night of seeds and a few peas and corn, make sure she has lots to drink (thanks Cindy).

Based on her diet, I am leaning much more toward fatty liver disease. Is there a health food store in St. Johns? The supplements I mentioned are pretty common ones and should be available at them, call around, sometimes Shoppers Drug Mart carries supplements as well. I want to add Niacin to the list of supplements that you are going to give Ruffles, 1/2 a matchhead twice a day. It is important that you get these supplements, I am sure they are somewhere in St. Johns, these are really necessary right now. Start the Lactulose as Reti advised, and yes, 250mg 1/8 twice a day for the Milk Thistle, yes, .15cc Lactulose twice a day.

I asked if you could get the drug and dose that your vet treated for "parasites", please do this for us. Are you still giving the Baytril? 

All the best,

Ron


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## misty

*Me again!!*

I am still giving her Baytril twice daily. I had a bottle of liquid bird vitamins which I am adding now to her water. I have taken away all sunflower seeds and nuts. I looked at my invoice from the parasite injection and it reads "antiparasite - ivermectin, 0.01ml". I don't really know if this helps or not?!


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## jazaroo

Yes Cathy, it helps.

Without a firm diagnosis, what we are doing is trying to narrow down what the most likely cause of Ruffle's troubles are. So we are going to treat for fatty liver disease, but cover a few other bases as well, just in case.

Please make the effort tomorrow of trying to locate the supplements Ruffles needs right now. If you PM (private mail) me your address I will send you out a few "just in case" things.

All the best,

Ron


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## KIPPY

Like Cindy said, I pulled the food from Judah for a day. 

Honestly I can't even remember everything I did. When I gave her seed back I just gave her the small seeds. I coated the seeds with some oil and sprinkled on some milk thistle.

I know I put the multi vit and pro biotic in her water. I also had some of that Nutraline herbal solution you add to water later on.

Judah is doing good, stool is good, the cough is gone, no vomiting. I see a little hunch sometimes but very little.

*No! to sunflower seeds.* I've been reading more into the sunflower seeds and not too crazy about them anymore. The 3 that I raised from youngsters/squeakers where the ones that got really sick. I lost Kippy, Judah was really sick ( pulled through) Zeke was also really sick.

The vet put Judah on Baytril and Nystatin (Zeke and Splash also). They also got the Spartrix. I had ferals comming in left and right, I know 2 had canker I could see it. 

There was so much going on at the time between my birds and the ferals it's hard to say what it was. It could have been a little bit of everything. I'm just not doing sunflower seeds anymore.


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## KIPPY

Global's Liverstim- vitamin supplemant and liver stimulant.

I ordered that for Judah when she was sick but by the time I got it she was better.

Has anyone used or heard of it? Would that help with fatty liver disease?



> So we are going to treat for fatty liver disease, but cover a few other bases as well, just in case.


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## Guest

Misty,
Fatty liver is not a reversible disease because the liver turns cirrhotic and the damage remains. What happens is that the liver is the chemical factory for the body. All of the blood goes through it and either the liver absorbs what has to be stored and it releases what has to go into the system.
If there is too much fat in the blood, the liver has to absorb it and if there is a constant input of fat into the body, the liver enlarges to hold all that fat. The liver cells are altered and become fat cells and a type of cirrhosis occurs. There comes a point where the enlarged liver can't hold any more fat so it releases this excess into the body. Lipomas form elsewhere. Those are fatty tumors but they aren't the type of tumor that can be surgically removed. It's more like the body cavity fills up with fatty tissue. There is nothing to simply cut out. There is another form of fatty liver disease that actually causes the liver to shrink but that isn't the case here.

The birds that are most commonly effected by this disease are budgies, cockatiels and quaker parakeets but any bird can develop it. Foie Gras is the deliberate creation of a fatty liver in geese by pumping fat down into the digestive system. It's supposed to be a delicacy.

A bird that has fatty liver tends to form ammonia in the digestive system and the bird can appear to be drunk. There is a medication to keep the ammonia down to a reasonable level but eventually, the ammonia overcomes the system. I don't remember the name of the medication.

Birds are the most difficult of pets to own. We don't completely know what their true diets are in the wild and when we try to imitate it, we don't quite make a good job of it because we don't really know what the proportions of the different foods should be. Frankly, birds are animals we don't have any business keeping for that reason. This isn't a dog or a cat where the diet is fairly well known and can be controlled. What percentage of seed to grain is needed? Why do pigeons eat berries? Why do pigeons sometimes eat insects? How much is the right proportion? We don't know this information but we only guess at it. Too much seed will cause a fatty liver. Seed is loaded with fat. In parrots, it's estimated that only 20% of the diet should be seed and the rest should be fruits and vegetables. Guess what. They can still develop the condition.

Your bird was fed butter and that is pure fat. It helped create the fatty liver, if that is what it is. If a bird doesn't eat certain foods in the wild, it shouldn't be eating these foods in captivity. So, we then do studies and come up with pelleted diets. You would think that it's a great step forward in bird nutrition. There is only one thing wrong with it. Older birds can't tolerate such a rich diet and can develop kidney disease. When does a bird become older? I have no idea.

Kippy, the vet is giving your bird only weeks to live so as Reti stated, this is end stage liver disease. It's in the last stages so doing anything now is probably not going to help. What would be needed is for the bird to lose weight and for that to happen, it would have to be taken off the foods it wasn't supposed to have in the first place. It would have to be taken off of seed because of the fat content. It would have to fly much more. How do you do these things in the end stage? 

Anyway, watch out for a drunken behavior. Ammonia is a very good medium for bacterial growth and frankly, if you see such behavior, it would be the kindest thing to put Ruffles to sleep. If it were me and it isn't me, I would have put Ruffles to sleep now. The organs are being squeezed. The air sacs you know about already. There is pressure on the heart and how long before the heart dies? There is pressure on the crop and these birds begin to throw up food because the crop can't expand properly. She can't expand her lungs completely so life will be a fight to breathe. Her quality of life is already gone and now all she can do is suffer.


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## jazaroo

Pigeonperson, Kippy was speaking of an entirely diffrent bird and is not the owner of Ruffles, the originator of this thread. As for the vet, he admitted he was not experienced with avian medicine, so whose to know at this point what the fate of this bird is.

Ron


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## Guest

Ron,
It's easy to drive me insane. I'm almost there. So where does the post belong?


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## KIPPY

I only posted about Judah because she had an enlarged liver, x-ray showed.

She had no stool, hunched, vommiting.

Vet put her on Baytril 2 x day (10 days), Nystatin 2 X day (5 days).

I like Treesas natural product ideas. I did not have any Reishi so I went for the milk thistle. I did not want to put a Garlic pill down Judah, I did not want to risk her vommiting and food still was not passing through well.

I had the garlic caps (oil), I put the oil on the small seeds and sprinkled
it with the milk thistle. I don't remember how many days. 

I only mentioned Kip and Zeke because they too were vommitng. I wouldn't be surprised if Kip had an enlarged liver, I did not take action or get her to the vet in time. Zeke could have been on her way to an enlarged liver. I
don't know. I also gave them sunflower seeds and I noticed in Mistys thread she did the same.

I would go with Treesas plan. 

*Can you use Baytril and milk thistle at the same time?* I used it after the baytril meds were done.

I'm so sorry Misty I know it's frustrating.


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## jazaroo

Pigeonperson, we'll, we don't want to drive you insane, I think we have all felt at times, this might not be a far drive to go on.

I am not sure I know what you mean by where does the post belong, although you mistook Kippy for Cathy you were still writing, I believe, with Cathy's bird in mind.

I do think though, as I said earlier, that it's a little early to be making final pronouncements on the prognosis for Ruffles.

Kippy, I appreciate your taking the time to write about Judah and what helped her, posts like yours at times may add needed information, and it has help here by reminding us to restrict calories right now for Ruffles, to take some load off her liver. Yes, you can use Baytril and Milk Thistle at the same time.

All the best,

Ron


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## Whitefeather

Good Morning Cathy,
How's Ruffles doing?

Kim,
Thanks for posting a bit more information regarding Judah. 
The information, in my opinion, is vital especially due to the fact both Judah & Ruffles enjoyed their sunflower seeds, had similar symptoms & were diagnosed, by X-ray, with an enlarged liver.

No one knows exactly what caused the enlarged livers. We do know however, that Judah survived, despite the vet warning us she may not make it. He didn't even give us a few weeks. 

Hopefully, with the medication, combined with Treesa's suggestions & a good diet, Ruffles will recover.  

Cindy


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## Guest

Ron,
Thanks. I changed the name to Misty. 

All I want to say about being premature about Ruffles is that I've been through this quite a number of times and the condition was not able to be abated. I've seen the results of a fatty liver and when it came to a point where the ammonia sets in and bacterial infections form from it plus seeing the birds fight for every breath they took because the lungs were being compressed from the outside, I just couldn't sit there and watch that suffering so the decision was made to put them to sleep. (I'm talking about parrots we have lived with for as long as 20 years) so believe me when I say this is a very painful discussion for me. I was really hoping that this was an egg.

For me, this doesn't even rise to the level of a discussion on the philosophy about life. They suffer . It isn't going to end. It will get worse so there is no choice but to put to sleep to stop their agony. Misty will know when the time comes to make this decision and we all know how painful that decision will be. 

If Treesa's remedies serve to reduce the size of the liver, it will be a learning experience for all of us and I'm hoping it works.


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## xxmoxiexx

question, ruffles eats plain butter?? or how does he like it? it's hard for me to imagine a bird eating butter!!!
also, bread has no nutritional value, but what about whole wheat or 12 grain bread? i'm not asking about bread for Ruffles, i'm just asking about it for my knowledge in feeding ferals... obviously any bread is bad for Ruffles right now, right??
i'm so sorry about Ruffles, i really hope Ruffles pulls through all of this, and you are doing the best you can, so hang in there for now!!!


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## Guest

Moxie,
I don't like bread in any form. The reason is that it's made with yeast and if a bird already has budding yeast cells, bread is going to increase the level of infection.


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## feralpigeon

Thanks Kim and Cindy for taking the time to post from personal experience regarding your sick birds w/enlarged livers. I know that we don't always have all the information that we would like to when trying to help our birds, and that
even very knowledgable avian vets might say that new information is always coming to the forefront. 

I know this is true even w/human patients from personal experience of knowing
someone in a liver coma who was never expected to come out of it alive. Yet, they came out of the coma, remembered conversations that took place around 
them while in the coma and continued to live a very active life for more than
a decade w/an entire lobe of the liver being bipassed. They weren't on meds per se, but diet in terms of nutrition and supplements played a very large part.

I don't know what is around the corner for Ruffles, but I'm hoping that whatever
that may be, Ruffles and her family have found some other useful information here that will help. If it were my bird I would try
w/some of the suggestions until I was certain in my heart of hearts that I had tried my best to no avail.

fp


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## feralpigeon

From Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison on Page 254 
is this quote:

"In obese pigeons, the liver
will appear enlarged, which will resolve when the
birds are fasted. "

Again, we don't know for certain, but there's some hope 
in this quote.

fp


----------



## Feefo

> From Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison on Page 254
> is this quote:
> 
> "In obese pigeons, the liver
> will appear enlarged, which will resolve when the
> birds are fasted. "


That is a good find, fp!

Cynthia


----------



## Whitefeather

feralpigeon said:


> * *Thanks Kim and Cindy for taking the time to post from personal experience regarding your sick birds w/enlarged livers. *
> 
> ** * If it were my bird I would try w/some of the suggestions until I was certain in my heart of hearts that I had tried my best to no avail.*
> 
> fp


Hi fp,
* Since I accompanied Kim's mother & Judah to the vet, saw the X-ray & heard what the vet had to say & have see the outcome, I felt it was worth mentioning, since Judah & Ruffles did share a couple of the symptoms, the most prevelant, the enlarged liver. I am so glad Kim posted as well.  

**I couldn't have said that better, & totally agree with you.  

Cindy


----------



## Skyeking

Never say Never, some things are reversable. 

We need to be positive as there are so many possiblities. Who is to say that a fatty liver is not reversable? How does anyone know without trying everything that has proved successfull in supporting liver health and chronic issues. Who is to say that end stage liver disease is just that....the end?

I know that this can be treated significantly for humans, so why not birds? There are many wonderful products out there that we use everyday that can be used on birds.

Milk Thistle is one herb that supports liver detox, this actually cleans out the liver and purges the toxins out, it works effectively for mercury poisoning in sea birds, as Doreen has used it many times where poisoning is suspected.

Reishi has not only shown to significantly support chronic liver issues, but also works for liver detox. I absolutely think this one is crucial for any liver ailment, it has proved to do so. There are a few other things like barley, chlorella and turmeric that also works on different toxins.

Then there are dietary changes which are significantly going to increase liver detox and stabilizing the liver by putting less of a burden on the liver. Nutrition products specifically designed to support overall liver function as well as the entire body, is a big plus also. All the organs need good supportive measures, because you can bet if the liver is not functioning properly the kidneys may also not be functioning.The blood can also be cleaned out, and garlic does help.

Actually we do know the proportions of seeds to grains, and percentages that pigeons need. It is a an actual pigeon mix that supplies what they need and that has been formulated for many years. There are percentages designated for optimum health, and one of the percentages in a good pigeon mix, is that there is only 2 percent sunflowers or safflower to the mix, with very good reason. There are different formulations for the breeding season, for the molting season and for the rest period. Pigeons do need a bit of real meat protein at times, but very little, before the breeding season, as well as during the growth of a youngster. A good organic dog food may take care of that need, but it should be clean of any fillers, chemicals and colorings, those things can become toxic especially in long term use. Pigeons have been domesticated for many many years, and their food successfully designed for their needs.

The words "end stage liver disease " pretty much means hopeless to many, but those are just words, quite negative, but hopeless it is not. I'm sure these words have come across the desks of many nutritionist/doctors, many times, a who get hopeless cases everyday, once the doctor has sealed someone's fate. It is usually at such a stage when people do seek out the help of herbologists/nutritionist. I can just imagine the percentage of people who have been helped with last stage liver disease, I can also imagine the incredible percentage of successfull treatments when these people seek out their help as a first resort, not last.

Our bodies are designed to heal themselves, I am a firm believer of that, as God designed it that way. We stay healthy by eating what God designed us to eat, and that is food from good clean earth, not boxed,canned, treated, colored, chemical enhanced food, but good ole fashioned food from the garden of Eden. When we don't do that we get all kinds of signs telling us...warning... warning, it may be a headache, lethargy, feeling moody...these are enhanced as time progresses. You either get back to eating quality foods or it gets worse. When it gets really bad then its time to see a doctor of your choice. You can either add insult to injury and take chemical drugs or you can purge your body of the poisons, detox (thru enemas, mud packs, open up the meridians,clean out old waste,old scar tissue, past health issues must be treated, clean every organ in the body starting with the top ones and work your way down, balance the hormones, alkalize the colon and intestines, and be in for a big surprise! Then add nutrition to the diet, and loads of it, to overcome what has been done to the body for years and years, and eat well.

The point of all this, is that every life form is designed to heal itself, birds too.
You have a choice, I'm glad that I have the option of knowing both sides, and knowing when to use one over the other, having an open mind is just the start.

....and things are never hopeless.


----------



## jazaroo

Yes fp, good find.

This was also my experience with our overweight Amazon who was diagnosed with fatty liver disease and did have an enlarged liver. She was put on a diet, plus her diet was completely and permanently changed, she was put on the medicines and supplements I recommended and she got better. It took a few months for the improvements to really become apparent in her overall appearance, her vitality and vocalizations, she was lethargic and much less vocal when ill, and lab work and xrays. So as I have been saying, as you have (and others), lets give it a little time and see what happens with Ruffles.

Moxie, you asked about eating butter, this was also one of Rikko's (our Amazon) favorites. She loved buttered toast, wouldn't eat it without butter, she would fly on your shoulder and bite at mine, or my wife's, ear to give her a piece (had to be big, or she would bite you again), or pancakes or waffles, all had to have butter on them (so I know about the butter part, kinda' hit home when I read this). She ate a lot of good things, but too many unhealthy things for her, by coming to your plate and just taking what she wanted. This was over 12 years ago, so we have learned a lot since then and thankfuly she, as I said, recovered.

Ron


----------



## Reti

One good thing is that the liver has a great capacity of regenerating.
At the very end stage of liver disease the liver actually shrinks that is when it stops funtioning. 
So, there is hope for Ruffles.

Reti


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
I'm glad to report that Ruffles has perked up a little!! We play the head bowing game and she's doing her cooing and dancing in circles again!! A far cry from a couple of days ago!! She is still enlarged and her breathing hasn't changed but at least her personality is coming back which is a good sign. 
And yes she loved plain butter!! When we took it out for toast or crackers, she would go crazy and have to get her beak right in there, but I hope she enjoyed it because she's not getting it anymore!!!!!
I spoke to a different vet today and she seemed more interested in our situation. She knows a good vet in Halifax that deals 95% in "exoctics" so she's going to contact him for his opinion. We also talked about blood work and ultrasound. There is a different vet that does ultrasounds so she will talk to her because I was concerned about getting it done and them not being able to read it properly, after all, how many pigeons has she done ultrasounds on, and how would they even do it. I told her my concern about getting blood work in case they can't stop the bleeding. I hope to hear something early next week. 
Anyway, for as long as Ruffles is still breathing, I'm on a mission to get her better so we can grow old together!!!
Again, thank you guys for all your support, I am overwhelmed by all your concern. I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## Whitefeather

misty said:


> Hi guys,
> **I'm glad to report that Ruffles has perked up a little!! We play the head bowing game and she's doing her cooing and dancing in circles again!!* *A far cry from a couple of days ago!!*
> 
> She is still enlarged and her breathing hasn't changed but at least her personality is coming back which is a good sign.
> 
> ** *Anyway, for as long as Ruffles is still breathing, I'm on a mission to get her better so we can grow old together!!!*
> Again, thank you guys for all your support, I am overwhelmed by all your concern. I'll keep you all posted.


Cathy,
* I'm so glad to hear Ruffles is perking up some.  
She may have some 'out of sorts' days from time to time, but she's hangin' in there & that's what counts.  

** And we would love to see you both grow 'old' together.  

Cindy


----------



## Charis

That's wonderful news. I hope the sweet girl just keeps feeling better and better. No one will ever doubt your love and devotion.


----------



## Guest

I don't know if this will help but the seed with the lowest fat content is white millet and flax


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I am glad to hear Ruffles has perked up a little. I just wanted to remind you, and maybe you already have, is to get all of the supplements I mentioned starting Ruffles on. They are all really necessary, as I mentioned before, right now for her, as the more we support and detoxify her liver, the better she will feel. Please continue to restrict her calories, a teaspoon of seeds twice a day and a little peas and corn, please do not cheat on doing this. What I would really like you to do is get an accurate gram scale and weigh her every morning at the same time to keep track of her weight, so that we can monitor her progress better.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## Feefo

Thanks for the very encouraging update, Cathy. Ruffles may not look much better but her behaviour certainly indicates that she feels better. Keep up the good work.

Cynthia


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

I'm happy to hear the encouraging update on Ruffles. With time and your wonderful supportive care she is sure to continue to feel better and better!


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, Ruffle's behavior does sound very encouraging. Keep up the good work
and don't let her con you into treats! I know that's easier said than done, but
you know the 'down side' better than most. 

Please do get all of the supplements for Ruffles as your time permits and I'm glad that
you are persuing other possible veterinarian care providers for Ruffles
in the meantime. Sounds like a reasonable move under the circumstances.

I was remembering another thread where someone appeared here for their bird,
Buddy, who had discharge from one eye. He took the bird to the vet and low
and behold was given a diagnosis of fatty liver by the vet. Here's a link to
his follow-up post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=94870&postcount=15

Thanks for the good news from Ruffles and all your hard work as well  .

fp


----------



## KIPPY

> I don't know if this will help but the seed with the lowest fat content is white millet and flax


Thanks for the info, and thank you for keeping it short and sweet.  

I was at petsmart yesterday and decided to check out that fat content on the bird mixes. *Amazed* at the fat content of seeds. Sunflower was high, safflower was high (I thought), they had a wild dove mix that was low.

I also read an article about GM corn causing *liver damage* in rats. Who's to say what our bird seed is. If they do that with corn, why not with sunflower seeds? or any seed.

This should probably be on another thread but it all comes down to the liver.


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi Guys,
I picked up some "Hepato Support" vitamins at the vet clinic today. They contain:

- Milk Thistle Extract 100mg
- Vitamin B1 (thiamine) 5mg
- Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 5mg
- Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) 5mg
- Pantothenic Acid (calcium pantothenate) 10mg
- Inositol 20mg
- Choline 20mg
- DL-Methionine 20mg
- Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) 10mcg
- Alpha lipoic Acid 5mg

I'm giving 1/4 capsule once a day. I'm still giving Baytril, Lactulose and Milk Thistle, should I still give the 1/8 Milk Thistle capsule (250mg) even when it's in the vitamin? What else do I need? The vet didn't want to give me Metronidazole until she checked into it further. 
And don't worry, Ruffles won't be getting any more "goodies" no matter how much she demands it. It's a little thing called "tough love", for her own good!!! Thanks again.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

You should probably ask your avian vet, but yes, I would decrease the Milk Thistle since it is in the vitamin preparation, but only on the days you use the vitamins.

You don't want to overdo the detox, as it might be too stressful on the Ruffles system.


----------



## Reti

Sounds excellent what you got there.
I don't know if you should give additional milk thistle, I am sure Treesa will know.

Reti

I see Treesa answered you question already.


----------



## feralpigeon

KIPPY said:


> Thanks for the info, and thank you for keeping it short and sweet.
> 
> I was at petsmart yesterday and decided to check out that fat content on the bird mixes. *Amazed* at the fat content of seeds. Sunflower was high, safflower was high (I thought), they had a wild dove mix that was low.
> 
> I also read an article about GM corn causing *liver damage* in rats. Who's to say what our bird seed is. If they do that with corn, why not with sunflower seeds? or any seed.
> 
> This should probably be on another thread but it all comes down to the liver.



No, actually, I think the information belongs here so that when the search engine is utilized, an abundance is brought forth. My problem here is that I
don't understand what GM is..... 

Could you or anyone else enlighten?

fp


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Kippy,

I think that all ingredients especially GM ingredients should be labeled as being so. There is indeed a great difference when they are altered, it is a sell out on our health and our pets.

BEWARE of anything that is genetically altered/modified...it isn't the same.


----------



## Skyeking

feralpigeon said:


> No, actually, I think the information belongs here so that when the search engine is utilized, an abundance is brought forth. My problem here is that I
> don't understand what GM is.....
> 
> Could you or anyone else enlighten?
> 
> fp


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism


----------



## feralpigeon

misty said:


> Hi Guys,
> I picked up some "Hepato Support" vitamins at the vet clinic today. They contain:
> 
> - Milk Thistle Extract 100mg
> - Vitamin B1 (thiamine) 5mg
> - Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 5mg
> - Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) 5mg
> - Pantothenic Acid (calcium pantothenate) 10mg
> - Inositol 20mg
> - Choline 20mg
> - DL-Methionine 20mg
> - Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) 10mcg
> - Alpha lipoic Acid 5mg
> 
> I'm giving 1/4 capsule once a day. I'm still giving Baytril, Lactulose and Milk Thistle, should I still give the 1/8 Milk Thistle capsule (250mg) even when it's in the vitamin? What else do I need? The vet didn't want to give me Metronidazole until she checked into it further.
> And don't worry, Ruffles won't be getting any more "goodies" no matter how much she demands it. It's a little thing called "tough love", for her own good!!! Thanks again.




Misty, I've always wanted a "fat pigeon", but now I'm not so sure, lol. Not 
so sure I'm doing anything right, but they aren't chubby for sure. I'm glad you are invoking 'Tough Love'.....it may be the only love that will keep Ruffles w/us, unfortunately.

I wish I could speak to exact dosages for Milk Thistle and perhaps Treesa can
check in with her 'Rehabber' on this specific item. I do know that there are precautions where 'liver flushes' are discussed in "Health Regimine Circles" regarding the amount of toxins released in the system. In humans, the liver
is thought to be a place where 'anger' is stored and the release of toxins specific to the liver is thought to be something that is done gradually and with sensitivity to the effects of toxins being processed by the overall 
system including the liver. In the animal kingdom, this might be equated to 
the 'confusion' thought to be experienced by the "liver patient" in general terms, ie, toxins in the system tend to 'cloud the ability of the rational mind
to assess information presented'. In this respect, it would be reasonable 
to reduce the amount of Milk Thistle administered when dosing w/the 'Hepato
Support'.

fp


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

What you have picked up from your new vet is perfect, it has everything that Ruffles will need to support and detoxify her liver, please stop the additional Milk Thistle. I feel very good that Ruffles now is getting all the supplements she needs, please continue with the Lactulose as well and the Baytril. 

Glad to hear that you are going to practice tough love, The one thing I will say on this, from experience, is that it's pretty easy to do now in the heat of things, just please try to remember a year from now what this heat felt like and keep it up for always.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## Feefo

Hi Cathy,

How is Ruffles getting along?

Cynthia


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
just checking in. Last week Ruffles seemed to improve a little every day but the last few days she's the same. She's still enlarged and breathing heavy. Last week I had her throat swabbed and brought in a fecal sample for analysis, I don't have the results yet. I weighed her last week and she was 457 grams. Two weeks before when the vet weighed her she was 427 grams so I'm worried about that. I stopped the antibiotics yesterday (after 2 weeks as per the vet) but still giving her the hepato support vitamins. I will keep in touch as to what happens next.


----------



## Pidgey

Well, I'd guess that either she's gaining fluids (like in congestive heart failure), she's got a tumor that's growing or she's still eating too much. Misty, can you weigh the food you give her every day before and after so that you can tell how much she's actually getting in? Graph it. And note it, whether it's mostly milo, safflower, sunflower, wheat, peas, whatever.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, what do her droppings look like? Are they dry? Wet? Describe the colour. Anything that you would consider different than what are normal for her? How is her fluid consumption? Could you please get a scale, an accurate one, and weigh her every morning at the same time please and let us know her weight each day. Is she still getting the Lactulose?

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Cathy,

Thank you for the update for Ruffles. Weighing Ruffles at the same time every
day would be helpful, preferably before he eats in the morning. 

Also, are you weighing or measuring his food intake so you know exactly how much he's eating every day.

Perhaps a supplement to aid in the elimination of built up fluids, could be she 
needs an assist.

I know this must be discouraging, and just want you to know that you all and Ruffles are in my thoughts and prayers.

fp


----------



## Feefo

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for the update. I am sorry that Ruffles is still so poorly.

As fp has mentioned weighing at the same time of day is best, even the food and water in the crop can affect the weight by 30 gms.

Cynthia


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi again,
I'm still giving her the lactulose with the vitamins. Her dropping last week were wet and bright green. This week they're wet and dark green/brown. I don't see her drinking much water so I'm not sure about that. How much food (in weight) should I be giving her? I haven't been weighing it but from the look of it, it doesn't seem like she's eating too much?!?
Thanks!!


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Her weight is truly an important issue right now. Archangels should weigh in at about 350 grams, give or take. The statement I made very early in this thread, when you emailed me that she was 427 grams, that she was in a "normal" range was wrong. I did not realize she was an Archangel, a smaller breed. So as you can see from the numbers she is quite overweight at her current 457 grams.

Cathy, quite frankly if she where my bird I would fast her at this point for 2 days, weighing her each day (please get the scale) to monitor her progress. I would pick up some Pedialyte Unflavoured (rehydration fluid for human babies) available at most drug stores and provide this as her "water". She needs to lose quite a lot of weight ASAP. We don't want to do it too fast, that's why a fast of only a few days, with hope this fast will give her some immediate relief. Continue with his the liver support and Lactulose of course.

There are a few things of concern, one is fluid retention, which means concerns that her kidneys are not working well either as a result of her fatty liver disease and the weight she gained is a result of this. The second is that she has some sort of tumor or mass (growing, adding weight), this is not as high on my list, as I am hoping the vets would have picked this up through her xrays, but it is a possibility.

A fast will pretty quickly let us know if she can lose weight and if she is retaining fluids this should become more clear as well.

If after the fast she has lost weight and has some relief, she really needs to be calorie restricted until she is more in line with a normal weight for her breed.

I will be away for the rest of the week and I am not sure how often I will be able to check in. We have some really great people here with much more experience than I, who will be here to help you out.

These are my thoughts this evening, others may have a better plan on how to proceed and or add their thoughts. They will better be able to advise you on weight for feed amounts, as although I have helped a fair amount of birds out, I don't have the raising them experience that so many people here have.

Good luck and all the best,

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, I'm wondering if over the years, you ever did any Canker treatments for Ruffles or if Ruffles had the Metronidazole along w/Baytril that was just completed as a course of medication?

More importantly right now, has Ruffles been getting Reishi with the other supplements?

Reishi is a good liver cleanser as well as supporting the liver and I believe it was in the suggestions that Trees Gray mentioned. It could be very helpful for a sluggish liver right now.

There are concerns about the kidneys if/when the liver is unable to perform
it's function within the normal range, especially if fluid retention develops. We are putting the weight gain in that possible realm, as fluid retention. By weighing at the same time before food and water--you may need to pull at least food at night--we could at least fine tune the info.

There are herbal supplements that might help with this or you could ask your
vet thier opinion on the issue of fluid retention. BTW, I think I've lost track of the other vet's visit that was mentioned in this post:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=186534&postcount=98

Just wondering how it went and if you felt more confidant w/this vet than
the previous one.

Anyway, you guys are on everyone's minds and I hope you know Ruffles
is on some prayer lists.

fp


----------



## Guest

http://tinyurl.com/avggq

Please go to this site and read the article. It has all the things that have to be done.

Treesa, you will definitely approve of the diet recommendations.


----------



## feralpigeon

Looks like Trees would long as it gets topped w/Reishi  .

fp


----------



## Guest

fp,
I hope Misty sees this post and reads the article. It's important to do something to raise hopes and who knows? It may not be too late.


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi everyone,
Ruffles is doing better!! I started restricting her food a few days ago and she has lost about 6 grams so far. She's looking better and her breathing is a little better. Her throat swab and fecal sample came back negative. I've started giving her the Pedialyte but I'm having trouble finding Reishi around here. I've been looking on the internet for it but there are so many varieties, which one am I supposed to get? I'm still giving her the Lactulose and the Hepato Support vitamins. I'm finally feeling that she might actually get over this!! The past 3 weeks were really rough so it is nice to feel happy again!!


----------



## Reti

This is fantastic news. I am so happy to hear he is doing better.
Treesa will know about the Reishi, I am sure she will be on soon.

Reti


----------



## Whitefeather

Thanks for the update Cathy.
I am so glad to hear Ruffles is doing much better.  

Cindy


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, this is wonderful news. I know this has been a very stressful time for you but you and Ruffles have certainly been in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

Go into the link:

http://www.healthline.cc/

Click on product information and then click on Reishi, all products are alphabatized. Then you will get the Adobe reader on the product. 

The Reishi Complex that I have has:

A blend of 500 mg, Reishi (raw and fermented mycelial extract and spore, billberry fruit, Self Heal, leaf, Golden thread, guggul, Blue green algea, Hyssop leaf, and Turmeric, stabilized rice bran.

There are three different liver detoxers in here, all remove different types of poisons as well as support immune response. I would start with one cap every other day and see how she does on that.

There are three different species of Reishi, but the true species with health promoting properties is the Ganoderma lucidum.

Avoid herbal extracts, use the whole herb as it is found in nature.

Make sure the raw plant comes from pristine toxic free soil, and has not been compromised by adding factors to bring them to "standard" It should not be solvent extracted, fumigated, or poor;y grown.

I hope you can find something comporable in one of your health food stores, or fresh herbal store.


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, the news that Ruffles is doing a little better is welcome indeed. 

As I said in my earlier post, I believe the real key to her recovering is getting her weight down, with all her tests coming back negative, this does put weight at the top of the list for causing her issues and we now have only another 100 grams to go. 

The 6 grams reduction is a start, but I want to be little more clear on what you are feeding her. Could you please describe what you are feeding her each day. Do you measure the amounts? Did you fast her at all yet, no food at all, just the Pedialyte? How many droppings is she doing do you think over a 24 hour period? Where you able to get a scale and did you weigh her or was it at a vet visit?

All the best,

Ron


----------



## misty

Hi Ron,
I'm giving her 2 teaspoons of seeds a day like you suggested. It is a mixture of Hartz seeds, fruits & vegetables with split peas, rice & barley. I didn't fast her yet. I couldn't go from 'buffet' to 'nothing'. I want her to have a few days of very limited food first. I brought home a digital scale from work (lab) so I can monitor her everyday. She is still pooping her 'normal' amount even though her food is really cut back. Where does all the poop come from!!! Anyway, I am happy to be cleaning it up!! Thanks for all your help!!


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I am glad to hear you have a scale, this scale will be able to truly reflect the progress she is making in hard numbers. It is important you weigh her each day at the same time, I recommend in the morning before she eats, get a calender and record this number.



> She is still pooping her 'normal' amount even though her food is really cut back. Where does all the poop come from!!!


This is kind of where I was going with my question, all that poop comes from what she is taking in. Less food means less poops, so if she is still pooping her "normal" amount, as in "where does all the poop come from", you need to go much further on the calorie restriction.

I think by now you realize this is, without being too alarmist, a life and death situation for Ruffles. She needs to lose weight, the result will be less strain on her whole system. I know to you it may seem cruel to go from buffet to nothing, but there are times, and I believe this is one of them, the very best thing we can do to help a bird that is sick, is to stop all food for a few days.

Let's do this, try one day of fasting a week, no food just the Pedialyte, Trust me, with the body weight she has, she has ample reserves to go a day without food.

I am going going to ask the others to chime in with what a resonable restricted diet for Ruffles would be to help her safely lose the weight she needs to.

All the best,

Ron

Cathy, one other thing I thought of, does she free roam, have access to the whole house? The reason I ask this is I noticed you have cats, would Ruffles have access to their food?


----------



## misty

Hi Ron,
I had a big chuckle at your very last question!! You are very good and observant!! In my last post I meant to write that she does have free access around the house and, yes, I have caught her trying to eat the cat food!! The dry food pieces are too big and she won't eat them but the thought did cross my mind that if she gets really, really hungry, what if she tries and gets it stuck in her throat or something!! I will have to figure out a way so the cats can get their food but not Ruffles. I'm not sure how I'm going to do this!!


----------



## feralpigeon

misty said:


> Hi Ron,
> I had a big chuckle at your very last question!! You are very good and observant!! In my last post I meant to write that she does have free access around the house and, yes, I have caught her trying to eat the cat food!! The dry food pieces are too big and she won't eat them but the thought did cross my mind that if she gets really, really hungry, what if she tries and gets it stuck in her throat or something!! I will have to figure out a way so the cats can get their food but not Ruffles. I'm not sure how I'm going to do this!!


Great update, Cathy, it's so good to hear that Ruffles is doing better and taking off some of the weight. I'm also thinking that if she's feeling 'slighted' in the tiny morsel department that she may look around in areas that she never used to for a "food source" and this could be a problem in terms of non-food items as well as food items. Have you no cage that she can stay in while your not around as a precaution for her. 
I know that might seem pretty radical a change for her.....behind bars and no food for a few days....what next? Water and stale bread? But I would be concerned about a roving beak looking for things to ingest as she isn't getting the buffet style feeding that she's used to.

fp


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, fp has made a very good point, a cage may be a good idea for her safety. However, if you can not cage Ruffles while she is not being supervised, while on a her diet, perhaps she could be confined to one "bird safe" room. A room where there are no plants, small objects or anything else she might try to ingest while on the hunt for food.

Ron


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
Ruffles has lost 9 grams now and doing well (except for trying to eat everything in sight!!). 
I'm hoping Trees Gray or anyone else can help me. I can't find the Reishi Complex here. I did find Reishi mushrooms. I don't know if this is any good, here's the details:

Brand: Organika (organika.com)
Reishi mushrooms
4:1 extract powder
250 mg
Ganoderma lucidum
Equivalent to 1000 mg pure reishi mushroom powder in a base of brown rice 
protein powder

I don't know if this is suitable for Ruffles, can someone let me know.
Thanks


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for the positive update, stay with it, you are doing good. I actually take it as a good sign that Ruffles appetite is still strong, please keep a good eye on her, as we mentioned, for her eating something she shouldn't. I am going to feel real good when she slips below 400 grams (on her way to 350, of course).

Treesa will be along, I am sure, to help with the Reishi before long.

Please keep us updated,

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

You know, I've never really thought much about a pigeon having an eating disorder, particularly bulimia (without the purging). I've actually only ever thought that they might occasionally have an obsessive/compulsive pooping disorder and that they needed to eat to keep it up. This is a first--a pigeon that wants to eat too much and poop too little.

Pidgey


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Thanks for the giggle, Pidgey. It might be a serious topic, but your post was way funny


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

I'm glad Ruffles is doing better.

Be sure to find out from the manufacturer if this is safe for birds and how it is made.

Make sure the raw plant comes from pristine toxic free soil, that it is not an extract, and has not been compromised by adding factors to bring them to "standard" It should not be solvent extracted, fumigated, or poorly grown.

Is this in a gel cap or powder?

If you think it is safe then try it on Ruffles.


----------



## feralpigeon

misty said:


> Hi guys,
> Ruffles has lost 9 grams now and doing well (except for trying to eat everything in sight!!).
> I'm hoping Trees Gray or anyone else can help me. I can't find the Reishi Complex here. I did find Reishi mushrooms. I don't know if this is any good, here's the details:
> 
> Brand: Organika (organika.com)
> Reishi mushrooms
> 4:1 extract powder
> 250 mg
> Ganoderma lucidum
> Equivalent to 1000 mg pure reishi mushroom powder in a base of brown rice
> protein powder
> 
> I don't know if this is suitable for Ruffles, can someone let me know.
> Thanks


Hey Cathy, what a great update on Ruffles, I agree that it's a good sign that
her appetite is still going strong even if somewhat problematic. Don't feel bad though, I started to eat a bananna in front of one of my rescues, DD, and after breaking off the top of it, that was it....for the next 15 minutes all she'd do is go after that bananna. 

I was wondering if the Reishi is in a capsule?? It looks as though it is from the description. Also, is this sold in a Health Food or Herb store where you could also get some plain gelatine capsules? You may want to have the option of being able to split the doses up if in capsules to a lesser amount than 1000mg's a pop. Just a thought, I'll pm Treesa.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

Cathy,

Mine is a blend of 500 mg, Reishi, so I would see if you can get a capsule with half the dose of 1000 mg. You might even want to start off with 250 mg for a week and then go to 500 mg.. I would also give it every other day, for a week, see how the bird does and then increase.


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
Ruffles was doing really well until April 9th. She lost 27 grams, but in the last four days she has gained back 25 grams!! I am really worried about this because I know the gain is not from food intake. I am feeding her 3 teaspoons of seeds a day, the same amount she has been eating as when she lost the 27 grams. Her back end is enlarged again and her breathing seems heavy, her tail seems raised and her wings are dropped low. I was trying to find pigeon anatomy on the internet to find out where the liver is. It seems like it's more in the front center, is that right?? I'm just trying to understand why her bum area is so big and looks blue/purple. I have another problem, I am going on vacation the end of next week for one week. I was feeling good about going because she was doing so well but now I'm worried. My mother is going to look after the animals but she can't give Ruffles her medicine because she will be alone and you need one person to hold and one person to squirt. Do you have any suggestions?? I was wondering if one full vitamin capsule could be dissolved in her water so at least she would get some instead of none. I'm also wondering though, because the vitamin smells so bad that if she smells it, she won't drink any water for the six days we are gone. Any ideas?? I'm going to be worried sick!! I hope she starts to improve again over the next few days but I'm skeptical.
Thanks


----------



## Reti

Are you giving her vitamins every day? 
I am asking because some vitamins, the liposoluble ones (A,D,E,K) can cause toxicity when given in excess. They are stored in the liver and should be given only once or twice a week.

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I am sorry to hear Ruffles was doing well, but has now taken a step backward. What is her current weight? Please describe in more detail what you mean by her bum looks blue/purple, such as; one side, evenly all around, starting at her vent and working out? How do her droppings look; has there been any change in frequency, colour, size or composition? How is her fluid intake; has it increased? Does she ever lay eggs, if yes, when was the last time she laid one? Good thought Reti, please stop everything immediately for a few days except the Lactulose (and food and water of course). Cathy I would like you to pick up some ACV (apple cider vinegar) at the health food store, Bragg's if you can, and add 1 teaspoon to each liter of her drinking water as well.

Ron


----------



## misty

*Update*

Hi guys,
the vet told me to continue with the vitamins everyday, 1/4 capsule a day, but I will stop if you thing I should. I'm still giving lastulose twice a day and I will continue. Her current weight is 455 grams. From her vent down, it appears very round, swollen and blue /purple. Her droppings frequency is ok, normal but a little mucousy. It tends to stick around her vent and I have to clean it up because she's always trying to pick at it because it dries on. I think this is something else going on down there. Her fluid intake seems fine, not increased, she hasn't laid eggs in a couple of years. What would the apple cider vinegar do for her? I'm really concerned about this bum thing. This morning, her tail is really raised and her wings are dropped low. She's looking really out of shape and it must be uncomfortable, it looks like it's going to burst!! Thanks again for all your help, I don't know what I would do without you guys!!!


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

She was doing well and then something changed. If you have not done anything different, or added any additional supplements, sometimes it is best to start to subtract things you are giving, to see if that helps resolve the problem. It just may be too much supplements, so that's why I am asking you to stop everything, but the Lactulose. Do you still have the Baytril, as it may be wise to start her back on that for a while. The ACV will do two things at the level I suggested giving, it will acidify her GI track, which will make it less hospitable to pathogens and act as a mild diuretic, to help her of she is retaining fluids. Cathy, the one other thing I would still like to do, is have Ruffles take a course of Metronidazole (Flagyl) as it will treat a number of pathogens Baytril will not, and it can be taken at the same time as the Baytril.

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

Cathy,

Can't be sure but it doesn't sound too good. Usually when you see those colors under the skin of a bird, it's a hematoma (collection of blood that has leaked out of the piping due to injury or for some other reason). In the abdominal area, it's more than just not good. If it's been growing fast, the bird may be hemorrhaging internally and would therefore be suffering from anemia on the one hand (causing the distress) as well as increased pressure on the lungs from the mass developing. And, of course, there may be a more insidious process going on like a tumor.

I don't even remember now but it seems like surgery wasn't an option there in Newfoundland and once again it's a weekend anyway. My vet once told me that sometimes, you get in such a surgery and find a large mass that can't be removed without killing the bird on the table. As such, it's usually better to just let them slip away under anaesthetic if that's the case.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for the update, and I'm also sorry to hear that Ruffles is having difficulties. If you go the ACV route I'd keep an eye on fluid intake and make sure that it doesn't decrease from Ruffle's norm, Ron's dose level for the ACV
was certainly a moderate one, we just can't always know how each individual bird will respond to the addition and Ruffles has quite an educated palate.  

Also, is the Vet aware of this current developement? Are you noticing
any unusual odor w/the poops? Hoping that Ruffles will overcome this obstacle in the road to recovery.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

Cathy,

I'm sorry to hear Ruffles is not responding to treatments.

I tend to agree on the vitamins, especially if they are synthetic, they shouldn't mell bad either. I would also talk to the vet and see about subtracting some things in her diet, as it may be a burden and overloading the liver.

Please keep us posted, and sending prayers and positive thoughts her way.


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
I got back from vacation last night. Ruffles isn't well. The hump on her lower back looks bigger and her wings are still hung low. She was 441 grams before we left and now she's 451. I measured out the seeds for every day for my mother to give her so she couldn't over eat. She only had the apple cider vinegar over the last week (no lactulose or vitamins). I started the lactulose again but not the vitamins. She has been throwing up for the past couple of days. Sometimes it's liquid and sometimes it's seeds. Any ideas on what I should do next. I'm really feeling now that she's not going to get better. It's really heartbreaking to see her so sick but I can't give up. Any suggestions??
Thanks


----------



## Pidgey

I really can't think of a thing to tell you that I haven't already said. And I am surprised that she's lasted this long. Is the color of the belly skin still dark (reddish or purplish) underneath the feathers?

Pidgey


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Yes, the area below her vent is still swollen and purple.


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I was hoping for better news. 

I also wish I had better news to pass on, but I at this point I think Ruffles is beyond the help that supplements and even meds can help with. She most likely has a build up of blood leaking into her abdomen, hence the colour and swelling. There are not a lot of options left, what could be done for some immediate relief would be for the vet to insert a needle into her abdomen and draw off a good deal of fluid/blood that has built up, this will relieve the pressure on the lungs and other organs. Then, you would need for him to operate and find out what is causing this, it could be cancer or might be an infection of some sort. 

There is the hope that he could clean her out if it was an infection, if it was cancer, a decision would have to be made if it was in a single mass that was surgically removable, and if not, as hard for me to say this is, to let her slip away under the anaesthetic.

I will say a prayer for your Ruffles,

Ron

PS: Cathy, I wanted to remind you, earlier in this thread, Pidgey offered his help in consulting with your vet on surgery.


----------



## Reti

I am so sorry to hear the news.
I have no advice, but will hope and pray for a little miracle.

Reti


----------



## Pidgey

Well, if it's a cancerous mass that's drawing its own blood supply then they usually can't do much. Some kinds of tumors start taking a very great deal of blood and end up creating or commandeering their own artery. Those have to be ligated (tied off) before the tumor can be removed and it's a tricky business because it might be buried too deep in the tumor itself. The good news, if you wanna' call it that, is that if it goes badly then they'll pass away under the anaesthetic so fast that they'll never know what hit them.

There is always the possibility, though, that it's a caseous (cheese-like) mass in the oviduct and that it's simply swollen and enlarged to the point of making the dark coloration in the abdomen. Usually the easy test is to insert a hypodermic and try to draw off fluid. If you get a bunch of dark fluid, then the chances are pretty high that it's a cancer. If you can't get any fluid out, then it's definitely worth a shot. The size of the stuff that I've gotten out of the two birds (Winter and Pattie Cakers--linked the thread earlier in this one) was absolutely amazing in amount both times.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Cathy, 

I'm sorry to read that Ruffle's latest update is not promising. Fatty Liver Disease is a difficult one to treat dependant on how long it has progressed for. Something I don't think that we mentioned earlier is not using tap water, and there are other sources that suggest fasting is too stressful on a Fatty
Liver. Syringing freshly juiced therapies might prove helpful, though Ruffles
has some health problems from the recent descriptions that will require more than this. Here are yet a couple of more links on this topic, the first one is an excellent description of the liver's duties for the body and at the bottom of the page are several more pages to this indepth article on the avian liver:

http://www.holisticbirds.com/Hbn02/spring02/pages/fld1.htm

http://www.avianweb.com/liverdisease.html

For liver function/disease issues, other than diet and support vitamin/detox therapy there aren't really surgical remedies that I'm aware of, perhaps a lobe by-pass but this may not be appropriate for FLD or for a bird for that matter and some of the surgeries previously mentioned wouldn't apply for Ruffles either. There also needs to be a stabilized liver to proceed w/surgery and this may not be the present situation. You might want to inquire about the drawing off of fluids and additionally perhaps a vitamin K shot. If Fatty Liver Disease (though not definitively diagnosed by the vet) Ruffles could have less and less liver function as the fat is distributed throughout the body, its organs and the liver specifically. It does sound, though, that there is currently some hemorrhaging. 

I remember you mentioning taking Ruffles in to a different vet: 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=186534&postcount=98

I can tell you this, Dr. Brian Speers is a highly qualified avian vet both here and in Europe and does consultations w/other veterinarians. I don't know what that charge would be, but his office visits are more than reasonable @ $54 per visit.
If there is anyone that could give you more information on the topic and resolve some of the question marks that you have right now it would be this
avian veterinarian:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/725968.html

http://www.vin.com/promo/consultants/consultant17.htm

I would highly recommend you having your vet ask for a phone consultation
w/him regarding Ruffles. If your vet has phone intercom capabilities, perhaps
you could sit in the office during the phone call. I hope this will work out for 
you and that you and your vet are able to hook up w/Dr. Speers.

In the meantime Ruffles and her human family remain in my thoughts and prayers.

fp


----------



## mother pigeon

Cathy,
My family and I say little prayers nightly. Since I have read your post, we have included a special mention of "Ruffles". We also light a candle for her. We have looked at all the wonderful pictures of her that you have shared. She is so lovely to look at, and has such personality. Ruffles will continue to be in our thoughts. Maria and Family


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi again guys,
Thanks a bunch for all your thoughts and prayers, keep it up!! Ruffles hasn't thrown up since Friday morning and she seems a little happier!! Maybe she missed us while we were gone and she wasn't getting any of her supplements. Hopefully the Lactulose and vitamins are helping again. 

Thanks fp for the website links, They are excellent!! There is a lot of good and useful information in them. I read it all last night until I was boogie-eyed!! I gave her a little fresh vegetables and fruit today and she loved it!! It does sound better than an all seed diet. I'll keep you updated.

Everyone keep their fingers crossed!!!


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, this update on Ruffles is welcomed news. However, please have her seen tomorrow, if possible, by your vet. Her condition should have shown greater improvement by now, and in fact has become worse, so there are issues that need to be addressed right away. 

If possible, I would also recommend consulting with Dr. Brian Speers, who fp recommended, on Ruffles, as he may be able to add some needed insight into her condition. She has really hung in there for you, so lets see if we can get her the help she needs to get well again.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Hi Cathy, 

Thanks for this update, I think we all need to hear some encouraging news
for Ruffles as worrying as her situation is. She is such a sweetheart and 
a fighter owing in large part to her attachment to her loving family I'm sure.

I'm also hoping that you see your vet and also get the phone consult. I 
know that he can zero in so fast it will make our collective head spin and 
you won't be sorry. 

fp

And yes, they do love their fruits and vegetables, lol.


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,

Ruffles isn't doing very well. I'm giving her antibiotics again. I emailed the specialist Dr. Brian Speer from that link that fp posted. This is what he replied:


Sorry for the delay in response..

We would be happy to consult with your veterinarian via E mail, telephone or on the Veterinary Information Network if that would help. 

Liver enlargement may or may not necessarily be present, and there certainly are many ways that further diagnosis can be pursued and/or treatment.

Is your bird obese?
Actually, reproductive tract disease problems in hens are pretty common, and I'd still be suspicious that there are other things to consider. Has there been any laboratory diagnostic testing performed? 

Your veterinarian would be more than welcome to phone us at our practice number (925) 625-1878 during office hours (9:00 am - 5:00 pm Monday - Saturday west coast time), E mail myself or Dr Ford at [email protected] or [email protected], or to post questions and case-management concerns on the veterinary information network site, avian medicine boards, where I am one of the consultants there.

I hope this helps!

Brian Speer, DVM
Diplomate,ABVP, Certified in avian practice
Diplomate,ECAMS, Certified specialist in avian medicine and surgery (Europe)


So I'm bringing her to the vet tomorrow for another x-ray. Wouldn't it be something if it turned out not to be her liver at all!! I don't know what to think at this point but I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Reti

Sorry Ruffles isn't doing too well.
I hate mystery illnesses. Hope the xray tomorrow will show something that could lead to a potential diagnosis.

reti


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, I'm glad that you contacted Brian as he is one excellent diagnostician and is very skilled at putting together 'short lists' and honing that down to a specific diagnosis. He has quite an impressive resume including having performed surgery on Condors. His partner, Dr. Ford, is no stranger to pigeons
having raised them in his youth. You're in good hands, I'm hoping that their
involvement will make the difference for Ruffles. Thanks for the update and 
hoping that you and your local avian vet will be better able to sort things out
w/some guidance and get a 'tailored care plan' together for Ruffles. 

fp


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

I think all us here at Pigeon-Talk appreciate this update on Ruffle's condition, she does stay in our minds and prayers to get well again.

I am very glad you are consulting with Dr. Brian Speer, and as mentioned before, he will have the experience necessary to bring some needed insight into Ruffles condition. Also, Cathy if you go back to much earlier in this thread, a number of us asked you to try and have Ruffles take a course of Metronidazole. The reason for this was although there were strong indications her being ill with fatty liver disease (still may be part of the problem), especially when you listed her diet, we wanted to cover our bases and not rule out a reproductive infection of some sort. I still think it would be prudent to have her take a full course of Metronidazole and an antibiotic like Keflex or Claforan, please mention this in your discussions.

I think Pidgey did post this link in this thread, but here it is again http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10686 , please also bring this into your discussions.

Please continue to keep us updated, wishing you both the best,

Ron


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys, 
I brought Ruffles to the vet Tuesday so she could take pictures, xrays and video to email to Dr. Speer. He then emailed her and told her Ruffles is critically ill and had to get her abdomen fluid taken out. He couldn't see much in the xray because of all the fluid. I was extremely nervous about the fluid removal because my vet has never done a bird before but Dr. Speer told her how to do it. I really didn't have a choice because Ruffles was really sick and getting worse. I brought her to the vet Thursday and the procedure went excellent. She took out 85 mls of fluid and Ruffles lost 50 grams!!! She took more xrays after to send to Dr. Speer. Ruffles is completely back to her old self, eating, flying, dancing, cooing, grooming, breathing normal, her back hump is gone and her wing tips are back up and she even had a bath!! My vet left a message for me late yesterday, not getting into the details but she said Dr. Speer looked at the latest xray and said Ruffles would need surgery!! So it's obviously something that is fixable. I won't know any more until Tuesday when she's back in again. She tried to find a vet here who would do an ultrasound but none felt comfortable enough. Dr. Speer recommended a Dr. Taylor in Guelph, Ontario to do the surgery because it would be closer for us to fly there with her. My vet has contacted him and hoping to hear from him Tuesday. So things are really looking up!! I can't wait to find out what it's all about. On top of Ruffles this week my mom is in hospital after lung surgery so it's been a crazy time. I've nearly been out of my mind the past couple of months with both of them but moms results are looking good too (I work in the pathology lab so I got the results hot off the press - nothing malignant, some kind of weird pneumonia or something, they're doing further tests). So that's the latest, I'll let you know what else I find out, keep the prayers coming, they're working!!!


----------



## Charis

Wonderful news!
Prayers will continue.


----------



## Reti

Ruffles couldn't have better care. You are a great mom to him.
I am glad he is feeling so much better now. Please let us know what the final diagnosis is.
Best wishes for your mom, for a speedy recovery. You had so much going on this week.

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for the very good news on Ruffles, especially the part where once the pressure was removed, she started to feel like her old self again. Cathy, if you remember, the fluid removal is something we recommended weeks ago, and the operation was something we suspected as well she needed. I am just glad Ruffles is the fighter she is, to have held on until you got her the help she finally needed, she is a special bird.

I know Dr. Taylor at Guelph and he seen a number of our birds and has an excellent reputation for the work he does, so you will be in experienced hands, glad to hear as well that your Mom results look good. We will continue with our prayers for you and yours.

Fp, you did well with your referral, truly life saving, good job.

Please keep us updated, and all the best,

Ron


----------



## Pidgey

What was the bulk of the fluid that they drew off? Was it yellow, red... ?

Pidgey


----------



## mr squeaks

Sending you, your Mom and Ruffles ALL THE BEST, Cathy!

WARM HEALING THOUGHTS and HUGS!!

Shi


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, I'm glad to know that your mom is doing well and that you get the news
'hot off the press' so to speak. Also good news that the fluid was drawn off and Ruffles is feeling herself again. I'm glad that you are being put in contact w/someone that can address Ruffles' medical needs and glad as well to hear that Ron knows this person and has used him in the past for his birds as well.
Is this Oviduct removal that Ruffles' will be having or a different procedure related
to the liver?

At any rate, I guess you know by know that when you post on Ruffles', you have
our full attention  . You and your family of humans and pets will continue
to be in our thoughts and prayers.

fp


----------



## misty

*Update*

Hi again,

I do agree that it is contacting Dr. Speer is what saved her life. Nobody here had any idea of what else they could do for her. When she got worse last week, my vet gave me more antibiotics and basically said it will help to make her feel better as she's dying!! I wasn't settling for that so I was desperate and emailed Dr. Speer. I honestly didn't expect to hear from him, he must get emails from all over the world, but it was my last hope and I had nothing to lose. Ruffles could be dead now, she was getting worse by the day and her breathing was very labored. She would have smothered.

All the fluid removed was yellow and clear, no blood. I was really concerned about something being punctured. The vet could have drained more but the needle slipped out and rather than stick it back in, she thought 85 mls was a good start. At least we know we can do it again if we need to.

So Ron, you are familiar with Dr. Taylor? Will he be able to do the surgey? I don't know anything about him but if he's not capable I have no problem bringing Ruffles to Dr. Speer in California. Please give me some info on him.

From what I can gather, the problem is not her liver. Dr. Speer was thinking more along the line of a reproductive tract (oviduct) problem but the xray he saw was before the fluid was drained and it was difficult to see anything. I don't know his opinion yet on the latest xray, all I know is she needs surgery. I will find out Tuesday. If it is her liver, is there a surgery that can be done?? Anyway, no use guessing, I'll know more Tuesday.

Thanks again guys for everything, I'll keep you posted.


----------



## jazaroo

> So Ron, you are familiar with Dr. Taylor? Will he be able to do the surgey? I don't know anything about him but if he's not capable I have no problem bringing Ruffles to Dr. Speer in California. Please give me some info on him.


Dr. Michael Taylor if the head of Avian and Exotic teaching at OVC (Ontario Veterinary College) at Guelph University. What this means is the he is the person responsible for teaching the students at the University who are studying to become Veterinarians, and wish to specialize in birds and other exotic creatures. So if you want to become a bird doctor in Ontario, he actually has many students from across Canada, he will be the person in charge your instruction. He also teaches even experienced avian vets on many advanced procedures, he has a reputation among avian vets as one of the top people in North America in endoscopic procedures and methods.

I would speak to Dr. Speer and make any final decisions in conjunction with him, as he has saved Ruffles life at this point and I would be relying heavily on him on how to proceed from here.

I hope this helps a bit,

Ron


----------



## misty

Thanks Ron, it helps a lot!!!


----------



## Pidgey

I'm not sure what grief you'd have getting the bird across the American-Canadian border to get to Dr. Speer but that's something you'd want to look into if you were really going to travel to the west coast of America for surgery for Ruffles. One thing you might want to consider whether you fly to Guelph or anywhere else is that they only pressurize the cabins of planes to the equivalent of 8,000 feet. If Ruffles' ability to take in oxygen is in any way inhibited at the time of flight (ascites again--that's the fluid your vet drew off; anemia--common in birds with ongoing infections; or a reduced lung capacity due to this extended bout) then taking off might start a hypoxia that could be fatal. 

That's just something that you should consider before flying. Did you ever give your vet those pages that I sent you about oviduct problems:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=185091&postcount=8

as well as the anaesthesia stuff:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=185154&postcount=11

I expect that no vet really wants to perform surgery on an animal for the first time that they haven't cut into before without having assisted in a similar surgery, or at least seen some really good pictures of. And, perhaps, your vet doesn't actually like doing surgeries, some don't. In any case, if it comes down to being stuck with doing it there, it would be well for you to amass whatever materials are needed for your vet to be able to do it.

I have had my nose in four of these surgeries on two birds and it's just not even scary to me anymore. But, you have to understand that that is based somewhat on the style of the surgeon. Mine calls it "minor surgery" and doesn't include any bells or whistles. Dr. Speer would no doubt include everything down to intubating the bird once under (inserting a special apparatus down the trachea to manage respiration and anaesthesia) and have someone tasked to managing just that. Call it an "operating theatre" in the truest sense. Bless his heart, my old doc just does it all with someone to hold the bird. He once said, "if you wanna' look good as an avian vet, work on pigeons because they are HARD to kill... " and that's exactly what I've seen.

Anyhow, if you're ultimately stuck with your vet due to travel or immediacy problems, you might help him or her overcome the reluctance due to the lack of anatomical familiarity if you can find a pigeon that has died within a few hours of your finding. It can be frozen until he or she has the time to do an exploratory. 

The incision would be made down the left side of the bird on a diagonal line between the pubis and the keel/ribs after plucking the bird in that area under the anaesthesia. The skin is usually lightly incised back nearer to the vent and then a small pinch of abdominal wall is collected to snip with scissors. Once a small entry is made sufficient to insert the bottom shear of the scissor, the abdominal wall is cut with the scissors to the forward termination point (1-1/2 in; 4 cm) just before the backmost rib. The oviduct is a very dark red organ and may be swollen at this point. It may have a some inflammatory material inside taking up a lot of space or it may be inflamed itself. It may even be tattered. 

There may also be loose debris in there the size of medium-to-large gravel. That kind of stuff should just be hauled out along with any other stuff like egg yolk material. I've yet to see my doc flush the cavity to clear out all of that kind of stuff, he just wipes it out with his fingers I'm afraid to say. In Pattie Cakers' first surgery, it was a ball of inflammatory debris the size of a handball (halfway between a tennis ball and a golfball) that he had to incise the oviduct to remove. It probably would have been better at the time to remove the oviduct but since there weren't any ruptures besides the incision, he thought it would be better to suture it up and close. It just turned out that the expanded oviduct did not return to its normal size and caused the later problem.

Anyhow, closure is to suture first the abdominal wall and then the outer skin. A continuous suture pattern is fine. For absorbable sutures left inside, PDS is actually preferred because a pigeon's body has less reaction to that kind. Chromic gut lasts longer but also causes granulomas.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

misty said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I do agree that it is contacting Dr. Speer is what saved her life. Nobody here had any idea of what else they could do for her. When she got worse last week, my vet gave me more antibiotics and basically said it will help to make her feel better as she's dying!! I wasn't settling for that so I was desperate and emailed Dr. Speer. I honestly didn't expect to hear from him, he must get emails from all over the world, but it was my last hope and I had nothing to lose. Ruffles could be dead now, she was getting worse by the day and her breathing was very labored. She would have smothered.
> 
> All the fluid removed was yellow and clear, no blood. I was really concerned about something being punctured. The vet could have drained more but the needle slipped out and rather than stick it back in, she thought 85 mls was a good start. At least we know we can do it again if we need to.
> 
> So Ron, you are familiar with Dr. Taylor? Will he be able to do the surgey? I don't know anything about him but if he's not capable I have no problem bringing Ruffles to Dr. Speer in California. Please give me some info on him.
> 
> From what I can gather, the problem is not her liver. Dr. Speer was thinking more along the line of a reproductive tract (oviduct) problem but the xray he saw was before the fluid was drained and it was difficult to see anything. I don't know his opinion yet on the latest xray, all I know is she needs surgery. I will find out Tuesday. If it is her liver, is there a surgery that can be done?? Anyway, no use guessing, I'll know more Tuesday.
> 
> Thanks again guys for everything, I'll keep you posted.




You and Ruffles' are in excellent hands between Dr. Speers and Dr. Taylor and
I know that Brian will communicate w/Dr. Taylor to ensure that that they are
both on the same page w/the best way to approach Misty's needs surgically.
I'm sure, though that they are both excellent choices and very knowledgable in these medical issues.

There is a surgical procedure for liver problems where loss of function has occurred for humans which was still pretty experimental back in the late '70's.
They actually surgically inserted a 'shunt' which I believe bypassed a lobe of
the liver. Some people had their lives extended for more than a decade as a 
result of the procedure. I have no idea what is being done in that field these
days for avian patients, though you may not need to ask this question in another 24 hours once Brian has a chance to evaluate the new set of x-rays. 

If Dr. Speers is recommending Oviduct surgery you might ask Dr. Taylor if 
he has done this procedure before, it does sound as though he's probably no stranger to pigeons, though questions never hurt. 

I think the kicker is going to be that you are going to probably want the ovary to be removed as well so that you don't invite other complications down the road such as cancer or having the estrogen leaching the hemoglobin out of Ruffles. This would involve the almost complete removal of the ovary and there is an artery there that would be of concern--this you wouldn't want nicked by accident. I know that Brian has performed this more complex part that is not always routinely included as part of the Oviduct surgical removal.

I think you're going to have to start the information gathering process and start narrowing down your options. If flying to California to have Dr. Speers
do the surgery is in your budget, then this is someone very familiar w/both
the routine Oviduct removal as well as the trickier removal of the ovary.
I would think direct conversations w/both Speers and Taylor will give you the
information that you need to make these decisions with confidence in your choice. 

Again, I'm relieved to know that help is on the way for Ruffles, and Reti is quite correct in saying that she couldn't be in better hands.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

I have to agree, as well.

I have also heard what an excellent and skilled surgeon Dr. Speers is.


----------



## xxmoxiexx

wow pidgey! you sure know a lot, huh!
thats too funny what your vet said about looking good by working on pigeons cause they are so hard to kill!!
anyways, i really hope Ruffles pulls through! i have followed this for a while, and to tell you the truth had a bad feeling about it all, so i am sooo glad there is at least a viable option for ruffles now!!
good luck!!!!!!


----------



## Feefo

Hi Cathy,

I am so pleased that things are looking up for Ruffles and that there are so many skilled professionals that care about her recovery.

You have achieved wonders so far.

Cynthia


----------



## mr squeaks

Did I miss something in this thread?

Cathy is the HUMAN owner's name of Ruffles, the Archangel PIGEON and Misty is the "handle" Cathy uses...Now, Cathy, WHO is Misty?  

Despite all the names...I join our members in continuing to send BEST of EVERYTHING for Ruffles!!

I hope she has her surgery and a complete recovery! No one could have done more to help their special one!

My thoughts are with you, Cathy and Ruffles..

With LOVE and HUGS

Shi


----------



## feralpigeon

Well, Cathy, I know you know who Misty is and that myself and others have
Ruffles' best interest at heart even though some of us substituted your screen
name (which just happens to be a really great one) for Ruffles' name in error.
It really doesn't change the content of our communications and I hope you will
forgive us.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

This is another one of those posts that leaves me with my mouth hanging open and joy in my heart. I know things are still not totally well with Ruffles but she has a chance. Cathy, my heart goes out to you and my prayers too for you, your mom and Ruffles. I didn't know that people would be willing to fly from Canada to CA for a pigeon. You know, Moxie, who is a college student, also cared enough about her rescued feral, BB King, to carry him on a bus from Boston to NYC. People can be wonderful and I am happy that I found this forum to read about them. 

fp - great job in the recommendation.


----------



## Pidgey

I wonder why pet birds aren't allowed on Air Canada, either in the cabin or as cargo?

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/airport/baggage/pets.html

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

> Did I miss something in this thread?
> 
> Cathy is the HUMAN owner's name of Ruffles,


I am sorry. Shi. What I end up writing and what I think I have written are two different things these days. But you should hear the nonsense that comes out of my mouth when I speak.

Cynthia


----------



## Pidgey

WestJet also does direct flights from St. John's to Toronto. I tried to get their policy and one of the pages that it should be on isn't currently responding. You go to this main page (for English, anyhow):

http://c3dsp.westjet.com/guest/home.shtml?language=EN&fromSplash=true

...and position your pointer on the "Travel Info" tab which produces a drop-down menu. Click on the "Restricted Items Info" and wait for the next page (it'll open a new window) to come up. Next, you find the "Click Here to see what you can--and can't--take on your flight" at the top and click that. Then, at the top of THAT page, there are a couple of drop-down selection windows and you can choose the Select by Category one--scroll down to "Pets & animals". It talks about sick animals probably not being able to go but that doesn't say anything about the allowed species. There is a sentence on that page that gives a link to WestJet's policy on "Travelling with your pet" but I couldn't get that one to work--it's either busted or something. 

I'd get Jaz to call 'em up in Toronto and see what he can find out.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

Oh, don't feel bad, Cynthia, I called the bird "Misty" earlier. I went back and fixed the post.

Pidgey


----------



## Pidgey

I don't feel particularly bad about that, however, as I was pretty sure that my name was "whichever kid you are" for several years.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

What airliner Cathy & Ruffles fly on might depend on the diagnosis and what needs to be done. She may find, regardless that a trusted travel agent can
do better for her in terms of "ins and outs" of it all than going direct w/the individual airlines. Least that's been my experience in the past, though it may
not be relevant here.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

They used to be a lot more flexible but it's really been getting bad, lately. I'm just pointing out that this kind of thing might as well be looked into right now. It's got to be done both ways because even if you can get someone on the departure end to go against policy (which this might not be), you can't be sure that someone on the other end will for the return trip. That's all got to be looked into.

Pidgey


----------



## jazaroo

Pidgey, I managed to get onto Westjet's site and they do take birds, I copied this from one of the information pages.

Pets in the cabin Pets in checked baggage
Service fee per kennel $50 (each way)	$50 (each way)
Types of pets allowed	Cats, dogs, rabbits, 
and birds only.	Cats, dogs, rabbits, birds, chinchillas, 
guinea pigs and hedgehogs only.


Ron


----------



## Pidgey

Well, at least we've got a ride, now. Jaz and I talked over the phone and Air Canada's kinda' got a problem these days. Jaz actually prefers WestJet anymore.

Cathy, when you get back on here, can you possibly tell us a little more about this fluid they pulled out--would you call it "clear and straw-colored"?

Pidgey


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
Sorry I haven't checked in for a while. Between work, taking care of mom and Ruffles and planning our trip, it's been crazy!! Both mom and Ruffles are doing well. We had Ruffles fluid removed for the third time today (once a week for the last three weeks). She does really well after, you wouldn't know there was anything wrong with her. She has made lots of new friends at the vet clinic. Everybody is facinated by her and she gets the royal treatment. She dances and coos for them and they melt!! They obviously don't see any birds like her. We are going to Guelph on Sunday to see Dr. Taylor on Monday. I'm feeling really good about this because she is soooo much better than she was a few weeks ago. I think there is hope!! So everybody keep your fingers (and toes and legs, etc) crossed and I'll be in touch when we get back with the GOOD NEWS!!  

P.S. A few prayers wouldn't hurt either!!


----------



## Pidgey

Best of luck!

I have to say that none of the birds that I have taken in for oviduct problems have had ascites, though. That is, it's mentioned in the book and the pages I sent you but I've never seen it. It could go back to the liver as the problem. Probably impossible to say without an exploratory.

Pidgey


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, thank you for the update. It is encouraging.

Fingers, legs, eyes, etc. crossed and prayers being said for the beautiful Ruffles.

Have a safe trip.


----------



## sabina

Thanks for the update, I was thinking about Ruffles earlier today and was planning to post asking for any news! It's great to hear she's doing better. Best of luck with the surgery, will be thinking positive thoughts for you!

Sabina


----------



## Reti

Best of luck. Will be waiting for good news.

Reti


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

Sending my best wishes and hope all goes well and without incidence!

Thanks for the update.


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, hoping for all the best for you and Ruffles and glad to hear that
your Mom is doing well.

fp


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, thanks as well for the update. I will be praying that after this long ordeal, Ruffles will be able to become well again.

Ron


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys,
We're still here in Guelph and we have a lot of information. Yesterday Ruffles had bloodwork, xrays, ultrasound and fluid drawn for cytology. Dr. Taylor (he is verrrrrrry nice) was initially thinking a reproductive problem but then he was leaning more towards a liver mass after all these tests. He suggested doing a barium and floroscope to get a better idea. She had that done today and now he's very sure it is an oviduct tumor. It is big and he can't tell exactly what's involved. Tumor cells showed up in her fluid, it's adenocarcinoma. Her bloodwork was all excellent except her protein level was low because it's leaking out in the fluid. Her clotting time was a little prolonged but he has given her calcium and vitamin K to help this. So we're off to surgery Thursday!!!!!! If we just stop now and take her home, her tumor will get bigger and it'll keep leaking fluid more and more as it grows. He's already suprised at how fast the fluid builds up. He's not 100% sure what he's getting into. He said if it's confined to the oviduct then it should be straight forward, he won't know until he gets in there exactly what's going on. It can be really risky but I don't think we have many options here. I am soooooo afraid but the only other option is to just take her home and watch her slowly suffer until the end. He was very impressed with how good she has been handling all the tests. Nothing seems to bother her and she's always interested in eating whenever she gets the opportunity. He knows how special she is and he's never seen an Archangel before. So guys, double up on the prayers!!!! She's going to have a rest day tomorrow and maybe a steroid shot to help slow down the fluid. I hope the next time I check in it's with good news!! Wish us all lots of luck!!


----------



## Pidgey

Wishing you and Ruffles the VERY best of luck!

Pidgey


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Lots of prayers and hopes are coming Ruffles way. Best of luck on Thursday.
Feather hugs


----------



## mr squeaks

Count me in too, Misty!

LOVE and HUGS to you both.

We will be anxiously awaiting news!

SENDING OUR VERY BEST!

Shi
& Mr. Squeaks


----------



## TAWhatley

We're all pulling for Ruffles and hoping and praying for a successful treatment!

Terry


----------



## Feefo

My thoughts will also be with you both,

Cynthia


----------



## Reti

Best of luck that the surgery goes well and she will heal completely.

Reti


----------



## jazaroo

Hi Cathy,

Thanks for keeping us abreast on how things are fairing with Ruffles.

Continued thoughts and prayers your way,

Ron


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, you and Ruffles will always hold a special place for the membership here.
Hoping all goes well for Ruffles on Thursday.

fp


----------



## Maggie-NC

I don't suppose any one has heard from Cathy?


----------



## Pidgey

Not a word.

Pidgey


----------



## misty

*Update from Guelph!!*

Hi there,
So far so good!! Ruffles surgery today took 2 hours. They removed a huge tumor almost the size of an apple which weighed 24 grams, and a portion of her oviduct. It was unbelievable, he brought it out to show us. He's never removed anything that big before. The only problem is, it had attached to her bowel which made it tricky. They tried to remove as much as possible without damaging the bowel and the blood supply. So now we have to wait until she eats and poops. If she poops - great, but if she doesn't poop - not so great, her bowel may be damaged!! We won't know until tomorrow. And there still may be some tumor left on her bowel but we'll deal with that later. There may be some medication to slow it down or something. He figures he got at least 97-98% of the tumor. He'll wait for the pathology to know exactly what we're dealing with. We had to hang around during the surgery in case some hard decisions had to be made. So when Dr. Taylor didn't come out for 1 hour, then 2 hours, we figured it was a good sign. If he came out a half hour into the surgery then it would not have been good. We just came from visiting her. She's seems happy enough preening herself on her good pain meds. Dr. Taylor is still impressed with how well she's coping with it all and called her a very good patient. So hopefully we're over the worst of it, I'll keep you posted as to what tomorrow brings.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

I'm so glad Ruffles (and the family  ) made it through the day. Whew! Glad you were able to post -- we were anxious to hear as you can tell.

Sounds like she couldn't have gone on much longer without the surgery. That tumor was sure taking up a lot of room -- I'll bet she feels so much bette already. Let's hope if there's anything left, it can be easily treated so Ruffles can get back to enjoying life.

Hurray! Best wishes and prayers for swift healing coming her way.


----------



## Reti

I am so glad the surgery went well. She is a tough little birdie.
Any ideas on what the tumor might be? 

I am praying for a speedy recovery for our dear Ruffles.

Reti


----------



## Charis

Fingers crossed, knock on wood and lots of prayers coming your way.


----------



## misty

*Update from Guelph!!*

I forgot to mention that Dr. Taylor said she wouldn't have lasted much longer because the tumor would have soon blocked off her bowel!! Scarrrry!!


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, I am so glad to hear that Ruffles made it through the surgery. It is always a worry when any bird goes under anesthesia, plus on top of that, a very intricate, lengthy surgery. She really is a special bird and you all will remain in my prayers for a full recovery.

Ron


----------



## mr squeaks

Wow! Two hours in surgery! That's a really long time...for a pigeon!

SO GLAD she made it through OK! NOW, we just have to wait...which can be sooo hard!

We are all with you and Ruffles...

Sending ALL the LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES we can!!

Shi
& Mr. Squeaks


----------



## Pidgey

misty said:


> The only problem is, it had attached to her bowel which made it tricky. They tried to remove as much as possible without damaging the bowel and the blood supply.


They call that an "adhesion". Any time an infection or something like that creates a growing mass, you have that worry. We had to deal with a few of those in Pattie Cakers' last surgery. I shouldn't have put that one off as long as I did.

Pidgey


----------



## Whitefeather

Thanks for the update Cathy.
So glad to hear Ruffles is doing well.  

I'm sure you 'both' will have a restful sleep tonight.  

Cindy


----------



## Feefo

Thanks for the update, Cathy. I hope Ruffles feels a lot more comfortable with most of that mass gone.

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, thank you so very much for the positive update on Ruffles. I thought about her all day. I can just imagine how thrilled you were to see her preening after going through two hours of surgery.

I know all of us will continue to remember Ruffles and your family in our prayers and hope all the lab work comes back positive.

Kiss that vet for me. What a hero!


----------



## Pidgey

Those surgeries don't seem to affect them like they do us. You'd think they'd just had the best sleep of their lives or something. Of course, that's provided that they weren't terribly ill going into it and that something didn't go wrong that only shows up later.

Pidgey


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, that's wonderful news for Ruffles and I'm hoping the next update is one of abundant poops. 

fp


----------



## Skyeking

Glad to hear everything went well, hoping for loads of crap too!


----------



## TAWhatley

This is great news! Here's hoping for a quick and complete recovery for Ruffles!

Terry


----------



## Margarret

I was so glad to hear that Ruffles came through her surgery with flying colors. Poor little girl, that tumor must have been mighty uncomfortable as huge as it was. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a really nice poop.

Margarret


----------



## misty

*Update from Guelph!!*

Hi guys,
We went to visit Ruffles this morning and she was doing really well. Dr. Taylor said at first she spit up her soft food last night but later when she got on her seeds she was doing some soft poops. When we went back to see her this evening, her poops were back to normal. She did one while we were there and I was never so happy to see poop in my life!!! Dr. Taylor said she had done her first 'good' one about an hour before, so he was pleased. We had even noticed an improvement in her since this morning. You wouldn't know she had major surgery yesterday!! If everything goes well overnight, she will be released tomorrow morning so we may catch a flight home tomorrow night. I'll keep you posted as how things go, it may not be until after we get home. I am so happy, I could burst!!!


----------



## Charis

Cathy, That's wonderful news.
I have an Archangel that looks very much like Misty and every time I look at him I say a prayer for her.


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, that's great news for Ruffles. Just remember, this is a great time
to make lists of questions to ask a doctor when opportunity arrises. And 
I'm sure an opportune time to spoil Ruffles as well, you'll have to shower
with some 'extra spoiliing' from Pigeon Talks' admirerers so Ruffles knows how
thankful we are that she's here to 'collect her spoils'.

fp


----------



## Skyeking

I'm SO glad to hear the scoop on the poop!  

That is a wonderful update!


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, your latest updated has indeed brought welcomed news.

We are all just so happy as well, for you and Ruffles.

All the best,

Ron


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, many thanks for such a positive update. Yall have a good flight home.


----------



## Whitefeather

It's wonderful to hear Ruffles is doing so well, Cathy.  

What a Godsend Dr. Taylor has been.  

Wishing you & Ruffles a safe & uneventful trip home. 
Please do update as time permits. 

Cindy


----------



## Pidgey

Whew!

Pidgey


----------



## Feefo

A perfect poop...wonderful news!!!

Cynthia


----------



## xxmoxiexx

*Right On Misty!! You Rock!!*

oh my, an apple!! geez, an apple is a little smaller than a lot of pigeons whole bodies! that is just crazy!! it really is a miracle, and i dont even believe in miracles! 
i'm soooo glad she pulled through, you'll have to post pics when you get home and all is settled. we'd ALL love to see Misty in action again! congratulations!! really, that is so awesome! we all need happy endings like this, and everyone here sent out all the healing vibes that we could! you are a remarkable Mom to Misty, she is so lucky to have you, and vice versa. too many people would of given up with the first medical opinion, but you wouldnt take no for an answer, and that just shows that there is always an alternative, no matter what ANYONE says!
good luck to you, family, and last but most definitely not least, out girl Misty!! Tell Dr. Taylor we ALL thank him for being such a good sport and trying where many vets wouldnt even consider venturing!!
Keep up the good fight, Misty, keep it up!!


----------



## misty

*Update*

Hi guys,
We got home last night and everything couldn't be better!! Ruffles is doing excellent!! Lots of love and poops!! Our friends are coming to see her and can't believe she doesn't show a sign of what she's just been through. All she does is dance, coo and bow!! She really wanted to get a bath today but she's not allowed for 10 days, she has a lot of stitches. I weighed her this morning and she was 307 grams, a far cry from her peak last month of 480!! All day I feel like I'm going to wake up from this "dream" that I'm in because when I think back over the last week, I can't really believe how things turned out. If I just listened to everybody else, she would probably be dead by now but something inside me said, keep trying, and I couldn't live with myself for not trying. Something told me that I wasn't going to go through all of this trip and expence for nothing. After all, that's why she picked me and walked into my house 4.5 years ago!!


----------



## Reti

And she couldn't have walked into a better house.

I am so happy she is doing so wonderful. Always trust your instincts, it works for me and it worked for you.

Reti


----------



## Feefo

> After all, that's why she picked me and walked into my house 4.5 years ago!!


She chose well!  

Cynthia


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, I can't even properly express how happy I am that Ruffles is doing so well. I know you are so happy. Thank you for the update.


----------



## Skyeking

Hi Cathy,

Ruffles instincts as well as yours....serve you both well! 

Can I come to her 5th year anniversary party?

I know it will be quite a BIG one!


----------



## jazaroo

Cathy, I am so glad to hear that it all has went so well with Ruffles. It's been a long three months, but you both hung in there, and achieved the result we were all hoping for.

Please do continue to watch her diet, and please also keep her on the ACV (apple cider vinegar) for now, and in the future.

All the very best,

Ron


----------



## mr squeaks

I am absolutely DELIGHTED with your update on Ruffles!!

Ruffles has a VERY DEDICATED owner who was willing to go above and beyond! That ALL pijies could have have that kind of love and committment!

Please keep us updated!

Wishing you BOTH, 

LOVE HUGS and SCRITCHES!!

Shi


----------



## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys, I've added a few pictures of Ruffles trip to Guelph, enjoy!!

http://community.webshots.com/user/mistruff


----------



## Reti

Those pics are awsome. Ruffles seems comfy even in a hotel room and in the clinic. What an amazing bird. He trusts you 100%
Thank you for sharing those great pics.
Now, maybe you get Ruffles to write a book about his adventure.

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

Wonderful photos! Ruffles is just so beautiful. I think we kinda know who rules the roost in your house  

Terry


----------



## Whitefeather

Cathy,
Thanks for sharing the photos of Ruffles' trip.  
Glad to hear she's doing so well.

The clinic looks like a wonderful, warm & caring facility.

Cindy


----------



## Maggie-NC

Cathy, the pictures are wonderful. I looked at her other album and every picture reflects the love you have of Ruffles and how much she loves you. I loved the pictures of her laying on her "dad". 

She is a beautiful little girl. Thank you so much for sharing these photos with us.


----------



## flitsnowzoom

Ruffles is beautiful. Loved the pics. Boy, she sure travelled with a lot of luggage  (high maintenance chick? )

Glad to hear she's doing so well and is back home making all kinds of messes for you to clean up.


----------



## misty

*Update!! Great news!!*

Hi guys,
I got an email from Dr. Taylor last week with the surprising and great news!! He had the lab double check everything because he didn’t believe it himself!! Ruffles tumor is not cancer!! They’re calling it a mesenteric lipoma, which is rare in birds. I work in Pathology so I know a lipoma is a yellow, fatty mass (in humans), not a firm, white mass like Ruffles had. So I emailed Dr. Taylor back to really make sure that it is what they’re saying it is but I'm still waiting to hear back from him. So she doesn’t need any further treatment and once these masses are removed they don’t ‘normally’ grow back. She is doing amazing now, better than ever. This whole experience has been so emotional, so many ups and downs since March and now for it to end like this when I was preparing for further treatment for her and not knowing what that was going to be or if it was even going to be possible!! I still can’t really believe it!! I guess I got my fairy-tale ending!! I’ll keep in touch as to how Ruffles does over the coming months and hopefully years. Thanks again to everyone for all your advice and encouragement. It was so nice to know that there were so many people out there pulling for her when so many people around me were skeptical and thought I was crazy. I only wish that everybody could have happy endings like ours, Ruffles also sends out a big ‘thank-coo’ with XXX & OOO’s !!


----------



## feralpigeon

Cathy, that is unbelievably good news for you and Ruffles and every one on the
board here as well. What a relief, and yes, a story book ending for a gal and
the bird that is so well loved. Congratulations on the good news and please do
keep us updated.

fp


----------



## Pidgey

Well, that's the best news of the day. Many happy years, Ruffles!

Pidgey


----------



## Margarret

Cathy,

I am so glad for you over the good news on Ruffles pathology report. She is a beautiful bird with a wonderful family. You have many years together to look forward to.

Margarret


----------



## Reti

That is such wonderful news. I am so happy for both of you.
Please keep us updated and post some pics once in while 

Reti


----------



## TAWhatley

Wonderful news, Cathy! I am so very happy for you and for Ruffles. Please do continue to keep us posted .. AND .. pictures, please  

Terry


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## Skyeking

What wonderful news!

Congratulations on the wonderful "fairy tail  ending". 

I'm so glad Ruffles has a "happily ever after" !


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## Maggie-NC

Cathy, thank you for this great update. The news has made me very happy.


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## Feefo

That is such good news, Cathy! It has made my day.

Cynthia


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## Charis

cyro51 said:


> That is such good news, Cathy! It has made my day.
> 
> Cynthia


I totally agree.


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## misty

*Update!! Great news again!!*

Hi guys,
I heard back from Dr. Taylor again. They are very confident that the mass is a mesenteric lipoma. He had several people examine the slides and even put more sections of it through just in case there was a tiny, nasty bit hiding in there. He said it’s the first time in his 25 years of working with birds that he has ever seen this!! He sent me some pictures, including the mass. Check it out in the album “Ruffles in Guelph”, (link below).


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## Skyeking

Thank you for the wonderful update Cathy, I'm so happy Ruffles is INDEED 100 percent again!


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## feralpigeon

misty said:


> Hi guys,
> I heard back from Dr. Taylor again. They are very confident that the mass is a mesenteric lipoma. He had several people examine the slides and even put more sections of it through just in case there was a tiny, nasty bit hiding in there. He said it’s the first time in his 25 years of working with birds that he has ever seen this!! He sent me some pictures, including the mass. Check it out in the album “Ruffles in Guelph”, (link below).


Cathy, I'm loading the page now and will have a look, just wanted to say that
you and Ruffles are very, very lucky and especially Ruffles because alot of folks
wouldn't have been able to think outside the box and would have given up if faced w/what you were. Thanks for your continued updates.

fp


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## Reti

Thank you for the great update and for all you did for Ruffles.

Reti


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## TheSnipes

What a great story, & what a happy ending. Sooo happy for you and Ruffles! Love your photo album


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## mr squeaks

Ruffle's story is sure to be one of PT's all time SUCCESS stories!!

The committment to her is just marvelous to behold!

Along with my fellow members, I, too, join in wishing you both the BEST!

We will NOW look forward to happy updates in the life of one lucky, beloved and beautiful pigeon!!

With continued LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi & Squeaks


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## misty

*Update!!*

Hi Guys, just to update that Ruffles is still doing wonderful. She is happily sitting on her "egg"! My vet was talking to Dr. Taylor in Guelph a couple of weeks ago and he said he would be publishing her "story" in a Journal of Avian Medicine. It's the first time he's seen a mesenteric lipoma in a bird in his25 years of working with them, so I guess it would be a good learning experience for everyone. How exciting, she's going to be in a book for lots of people to read about her!!


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## Reti

I am very happy to hear she continues to do so well.
And she'll be a celebrity now 

Reti


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## feralpigeon

Cathy, that's so cool, and there was something about the two of you that 
we all should have known that you'd become celebrities  . You and Ruffles
really and truly worked hard for this outcome and sure do deserve it, really,
it was against all odds.

fp


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## Margarret

Cathy, that is wonderful that he is going to write up Ruffles as a case history for the Journal. I'm so glad to hear that Ruffles is doing so well.

Margarret


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## Feefo

That is excellent news, Cathy. I hope that Ruffles' story helps other vets help other birds survive. Your determination to find a cure for Ruffles despite the initial grim prognosis was inspiring. As Trees said in a much earlier post "Never say never".

fp, it was your link that led to the wonderful outcome, I am certain that it will help save many more pigeons' lives over the years....can it be placed in resources or somewhere that it will be quickly visible to newcomers?

Cynthia


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## pdpbison

Hi Cathy,




Wow, what totally excellent news and outcome..!


I am just now getting caught up on your thread, and I am so happy to read the good news on 'Ruffles'...


That was sure one adventure there...


Best wishes!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking

Reti said:


> I am very happy to hear she continues to do so well.
> And she'll be a celebrity now
> 
> Reti


She will be EVERYONE'S celebrity now.  

Congratulations.

Thanks for sharing.


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## misty

*Update!! Not good news!!*

Hi guys, it's been four months since Ruffles surgery and the past couple of days we have noticed the same symptoms she had before. So here we go on the roller coaster again except this time I don't think we'll get our happy ending. I emailed the vet in Guelph last night so I'm waiting to hear from him. The way I see it is we have two options. Think about going for surgery again which is not a problem but if this mass is going to keep growing back, that means surgery every four months. So much for the 'less than five percent chance" it will grow back. The other option is to do nothing and let her die!! I almost wish it had been cancer because I think I could deal with that better than knowing a benign ball of fat is going to kill her. I am so upset, I haven't stopped crying since yesterday. I really thought and hoped we had fixed her for good but I guess it was just too good to be true!! I'll keep you posted.


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## Reti

I am so sorry to read the news.
Have you contact any vet yet? maybe and hopefully it is something else that can be dealt with easily.
How awful it the fat mass grew back and she falls in the 5% relapse category. 

Reti


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## pdpbison

misty said:


> Hi guys, it's been four months since Ruffles surgery and the past couple of days we have noticed the same symptoms she had before. So here we go on the roller coaster again except this time I don't think we'll get our happy ending. I emailed the vet in Guelph last night so I'm waiting to hear from him. The way I see it is we have two options. Think about going for surgery again which is not a problem but if this mass is going to keep growing back, that means surgery every four months. So much for the 'less than five percent chance" it will grow back. The other option is to do nothing and let her die!! I almost wish it had been cancer because I think I could deal with that better than knowing a benign ball of fat is going to kill her. I am so upset, I haven't stopped crying since yesterday. I really thought and hoped we had fixed her for good but I guess it was just too good to be true!! I'll keep you posted.


Hi Misty, 


I do not quite recall what the issues had been with your Bird...

But, if it were some Tumor or other, Fatty Tumor or as may be, which was removed, but now seems to be coming back...


I would say you have nothing to lose, and maybe everything to gain, by trying some of the Herb Teas I have been experimenting with.


I have had only one Tumor issue among all the many Pigeons who have passed throug here, and it was on a Bird's Leg...it was the size of a full sized Bing Cherry and dark colored somewhat, truely an unsettleing and frightening thing to look at.


Vet insisted we would have to take the whole Leg off, and that the Tumor had Bone and Tendon involvement, as it has enveloped the Leg pretty much.
It was a hard Tumor and not soft at all...hard as a rock, as they say.

We sheduled a Surgery, and I just did not have the heart to follow through...


So, I whooped up a strong Quart of the Herb Tea, and started him on it as his only drinking Water, and I pretty well ignored him for a week, since I did not believe the Tea was going to help him any, and I felt bad and I did not want to look.


Anyway, I decide to look, and low and behold, that Tumor was a flacid shrunken nothing-much of just wrinkly Skin, looking like someone flattenned out a Raisen and stuck it on him.

I was so thrilled I did not know what to think.

Anyway, the Skin after a while got back to normal, and you would never know he had ever had a problem there. It is a nice 'Coral' colored Leg, looking just as nice as can be.

So, I'd say, this, and anything else you can do to enhance his Nutrition, would be good, and, can not hurt...and, just might help...


I'd be glad to give details on how to make the Tea, if you want to try it.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## CHRISTIN RN

*Herbal Remedies*

Blessings To Ruffles And Family!

I'm Praying For You Guys From Now.
I Don't Know Much About Birds Yet, But I Do Know That Over Many Years I Have Been Told By Vets That It Was The End For My Other Animals And As Soon As I Began The Various Herbal Treatments Everything Resolved!
Please Inquire Of PDpbison On His Herbal Treatment For Your Bird.
At Least You'll Know You Did Everything
Thanks To PDpbison For Caring And Helping!
I'M NEW HERE, SO I WENT BACK AND VIEWED THE PICS...RUFFLES IS REALLY BEAUTIFUL AND STRONG!
BlessingS To All!


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## Margarret

Cathy,

I was so sad to read that Ruffles may have another tumor. I'll send healing thoughts and love for her and you as well.

Margaret


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## TAWhatley

Cathy, I'm so sorry to learn of this. Poor you and poor Ruffles. Please do let us know what the vet has to say. We'll be keeping you and Ruffles in our thoughts and prayers.

Terry


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## Feefo

I am so sorry, Cathy, but don't anticipate the worst. Maybe the vet can establish why the lump grew back against the odds this time and stop it happening again.

Cynthia


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## Pidgey

It's possible that the lipoma was a result of something else and not actually the primary cause of the first go-around, you know. Whenever I get a hen with those symptoms, I've got to keep an eye on them pretty much for the rest of their lives for first one thing and then another. Winter had two surgeries and I also found her once with a prolapsed cloaca (I cleaned and disinfected it, put her on Flagyl and it went back in on its own--stayed in, too); Pattie Cakers has had two surgeries and had to come back in for a round of medications a few weeks ago or she'd have ended up needing another surgery; ****** managed to push her bad egg (malformed and rotten) out after being in the hospital for a month of antibiotics... she hasn't shown any return symptoms yet but give her a year and we'll see.

Is there any way that your local vet could put the bird under and do an endoscopic procedure to have a look inside? That would entail making a very small incision and using a scope to look in and possibly see if it is a return of the lipoma or something else like ectopic eggs. You can read about that in the stuff that I sent you back at the beginning of this thread.

Pidgey


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## TheSnipes

pdpbison said:


> I'd be glad to give details on how to make the Tea, if you want to try it.
> 
> 
> Phil
> Las Vegas


I would certainly love to have your recipe


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## misty

*Update!!*

Hi again guys, I spoke to Dr. Taylor and these are the possibilities:

-did the mesenteric lipoma grow back? He thinks it is very unlikely but not impossible.
-did another lipoma or mass grow from another area? He thinks it would be like lightning striking the same person twice, unlikely, but not impossible. 
-he was wondering if it could be something hormonal. She is constantly either “mating” or sitting on her “artificial egg” in her nest (he did remove a large portion of her oviduct with the lipoma). I don’t know much about this but is it possible for it to be this and have the exact same symptoms as when she had the lipoma? I can’t help but think it’s either the old lipoma or a new one because it’s like déjà vu all over again!
We don’t have any bird vets here so it’s very limited in what we can do. He suggested bringing her to my vet to do an exam, take pictures and hopefully get a blood sample to check her hormone levels. I have a feeling we’ll be going to Guelph again, which is something we will do. I've also emailed Dr. Speer so hopefully I'll hear from him soon. I’ll keep you posted. Keep up the good thoughts and prayers, it worked the last time!!


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## feralpigeon

Speer removes the ovary (around 95%) along w/the oviduct as otherwise
the bird's estrogen will still leach out and can be carcinogenic.

Ruffles will remain in my thoughts and prayers and I am hoping that you will get
some good direction over the next few days.

fp


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## Feefo

> Keep up the good thoughts and prayers, it worked the last time!!


We will. Ruffles is a very special and loved pigeon to all of us.

Cynthia


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## Skyeking

She is definitely in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Maggie-NC

Cathy, my heart was in my throat reading your latest posts.

Please know that you, your family and Ruffles will be in my thoughts and prayers again. What a gallant little bird she is and very, very special to us on this forum.

God bless.


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## mr squeaks

Adding My Hopes, Cheers, Love And Hugs For Ruffles!

Looking Forward To Positive Updates, Cathy!

Shi


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## pdpbison

TheSnipes said:


> I would certainly love to have your recipe



Hi Misty, 



I went to a Thrift Store and got an electric brewer, one quart, has a dial, and you can elect a low setting and forget about it for hours on end with no problem, has a Handle like a fat Coffee Pot might, sits low...unlike a Sauce Pan on the Stove which when neglected on the Heat can boil everything away and burn what is left...or, a smaller Crock Pot would work well too I imagine.


Anyway, powdered Plant materials, Herbs or what you will, are sold in Bulk in the better or kinder sorts of Health Food Stores, and, are not expensive in this form, where, the same material, in Gel Caps, in a fancy Bottle, will cost ten, twenty times as much or more.



Powdered ingrediants - for a moderately stout Quart of Tea, add:


Berberry ( or Barberry ) 1 Tablespoon

Goldenseal - 1 Tablespoon

Echinechia - 1 Tablespoon

Ginger - 1 Tea-spoon

Ginko - 1 Tablespoon

Licorice - 2 or 3 Tea-spoons

Any of various Herb blends which promote 'Brain' or Nervious System or Immune Health, having to them things not listed above, 1 Tablespoon


Add powders to Water once the Water is tepid, and they will dissolve better...Steep at a sub-boiling Temperature for a few hours or half a day or so...let cool.

Cut 50/50 with good quality Water, refrigerate...or, refrigerate as is, and cut by the Water Bowl being half filled with this, then the rest Water, when it is served.


Pigeons and Doves and Cockateils and Kestrals and likely any Bird will like this, and if they do not it may merely be a little too strong, so just cut a little more with plain Water till they do like it.

When I have used this, the Tea would be their only 'Water' for a week or two.


Tastes really good too, so if you make some, may as well join them.

It will spoil in a few days anyway, if left out...lasting longer if refrigerated.

Probably could be frozen in Ice Cube Trays, for a very handy means of just putting a couple or three cubes into a small Water Bowl and filling up the rest of the way with plain Water for them to soon melt.

I would have done this but my Refrigerator is a medium size 1935 model and has a very tiny Freezer which is always too full of self made Ice to put anything else in. I do defrost it now and then, but am usually between such times.

Lol...



Good luck..!


Phil
l v


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## CHRISTIN RN

Coco & I continue to pray for Ruffles and family!
While giving Coco his medicine this morning, we said a prayer for Ruffles.
He actually twisted his head side to side as if he understood! This made me
cry and here I go again.

Dear Creator of all living things, be with this beautiful bird and her family 
who are working so fervently to restore to her health and happiness according to Your will. Be with all of us who honor Your Creations. Amen!

Keep the faith. We'll be anxiously awaiting an update.


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## misty

*Update!!*

Hi Guys, Ruffles had blood taken on Friday and we got the results today. My vet here had to fax them to Dr. Taylor to interpret. Everything was fine except her calcium and cholesterol were high. He is leaning towards a hormonal problem. I don't know much about this but I think it's an awful coincidence that she has every symptom that she had before her surgery. Her hump is getting bigger as if something is growing and her breathing is more labored. He suggested trying a medication to shut down the ovary that needs to be injected every second day for a week and any more than that I don't know yet. I didn't speak to my vet yet, my husband did, so I have questions. Does anybody have any experience with this?


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## Reti

I have no experience with this, sorry. I know that the calcium levels increase before egg laying. 
I guess he is talking about Lupron, that shuts down egg production. It is commonly used in parrots with good results. However my vet said it doesn't work as well in pigeons. 
Let us know please what else the vet thinks after you talk to him.


Reti


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## feralpigeon

Think I've read that Lupron is carcenogenic, though in a bird w/excessive egg
laying problems that can be a health risk also, it can be a lesser of two 
evils so to speak.

If the oviduct is removed w/out the ovary or as much of the ovary as possible
also being removed, the bird can develop cancer down the road from the 
ovary continuing to leak into the system. Speer removes about 95% of the 
ovary w/the oviduct removal procedure to ensure against this. I do know
a bird that had many, many problems that the oviduct was removed for, and 
some issues continued until the ovary was removed. This bird has enjoyed 
good health ever since and had no more health issues related to this
problem.

fp


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## Pidgey

Here's a thread that discussed Lupron quite a bit:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18830

Pidgey


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## misty

*Update!!*

Hi guys, Ruffles had her first injection of Chorulon (to shut down her ovary) on Saturday and another one Monday. She'll get another one tomorrow, Friday and then next Friday. We'll see then if it's doing anything. I got my doubts, her symptoms have been getting worse. I think Dr. Taylor just wanted to try this first rather than us going to Guelph again right away. I'll keep you posted.


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## TAWhatley

Thank you for the update. I sure hope this latest treatment will turn the tide for Ruffles. Bless you for your never ending devotion to this bird and for all your efforts to help her.

For those, such as I, who are not familiar with this treatment: http://www.drugs.com/vet/chorulon.html

Terry


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## CHRISTIN RN

I Still have Ruffles and you guys in my prayers!

So glad that you posted the update! 
I share Terry's sentiments regarding your loving committment!
Thanks, Terry for the info. link.

Blessings to all!


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## misty

*Update - Off To Guelph Again*

Hi guys,
We're off to Guelp again on Monday!! We had Ruffles blood and abdominal fluid sent to Guelph last week and it was surprising and sad news!! Now they're pretty sure she has lymphoma!! Her abdominal fluid was a different color and consistency than a few months ago when she had the mass so they were a little concerned. The interesting thing is when they checked her fluid in June, they suspected malignant cells but there were too few of them to be sure and when the mass turned out to be benign, they just assumed that the cells were benign as well. Now Dr. Taylor thinks she may have just had bad luck and had two things going on the same time and that the mass had nothing to do with those "suspicious" cells. Now he says there are lots of those cells which look like lymphoma and she probably now may have a malignant mass growing. After a lot of hard decision making, I booked everything this morning and we're on our way to do something that we don't know what the outcome will be!! But if we don't try this, we will always wonder what would have happened. She will have surgery and chemo (I'm not sure about the details). Dr. Taylor doesn't even have enough info to even suggest how she will do with this. If it all goes well, we don't know if she will live 2 months or 2 years. I know it won't be a long time but I have to take that chance because without it, she will die anyway. I almost had myself talked out of going but my husband reassured me that we had to do it.
So I don't want any of you to tell me how crazy I am (I already know that!!), this is another stepping stone on the journey of Ruffles precious life, whether it be short or long and it's a process that I have to go through to deal with what is ultimately going to happen. I will honestly be able to say, "I did everything that I possibly could have done, and then some".
I will keep you informed on what happens next week. Say LOTS of prayers, I know there are a lot of you out there pulling for her!!
"Thank-coo"


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## Feefo

My love goes with you both. Ruffles is one of the pigeons that impressed me immediately by finding her way to your door five years ago. She certainly chose the right door.

Cynthia


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## Charis

misty said:


> Hi guys,
> We're off to Guelp again on Monday!! We had Ruffles blood and abdominal fluid sent to Guelph last week and it was surprising and sad news!! Now they're pretty sure she has lymphoma!! Her abdominal fluid was a different color and consistency than a few months ago when she had the mass so they were a little concerned. The interesting thing is when they checked her fluid in June, they suspected malignant cells but there were too few of them to be sure and when the mass turned out to be benign, they just assumed that the cells were benign as well. Now Dr. Taylor thinks she may have just had bad luck and had two things going on the same time and that the mass had nothing to do with those "suspicious" cells. Now he says there are lots of those cells which look like lymphoma and she probably now may have a malignant mass growing. After a lot of hard decision making, I booked everything this morning and we're on our way to do something that we don't know what the outcome will be!! But if we don't try this, we will always wonder what would have happened. She will have surgery and chemo (I'm not sure about the details). Dr. Taylor doesn't even have enough info to even suggest how she will do with this. If it all goes well, we don't know if she will live 2 months or 2 years. I know it won't be a long time but I have to take that chance because without it, she will die anyway. I almost had myself talked out of going but my husband reassured me that we had to do it.
> So I don't want any of you to tell me how crazy I am (I already know that!!), this is another stepping stone on the journey of Ruffles precious life, whether it be short or long and it's a process that I have to go through to deal with what is ultimately going to happen. I will honestly be able to say, "I did everything that I possibly could have done, and then some".
> I will keep you informed on what happens next week. Say LOTS of prayers, I know there are a lot of you out there pulling for her!!
> "Thank-coo"


I don't think you're crazy. A valued family member or friend should be treated with no less effort and dignity.


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## Reti

I wish you the best of luck for whatever it is, it will be treated successfully.

Reti


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## TAWhatley

Best of luck to you and Ruffles. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult this has all been for both you and the bird. 

Terry


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## Skyeking

I wish you and Ruffles a safe trip and the best outcome possible, I'm praying for it!


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## misty

*Update from Guelph!!*

Hi guys, here's the scoop so far!!
Tuesday Ruffles had an ultrasound, more bloodwork and fluid analysis done. He thought there was an area on the liver that looked like a possible mass but he didn't want to do the scope Wednesday because her blood protein was really low and she hadn't been eating or drinking much so he gave her different meds and steroids to do the scope Thursday. After the scope there were a few puzzling questions but it's NOT lymphoma!! Her liver was fine and they couldn't see a mass anywhere!! There was something 'funny' in the previous surgical site (oviduct) but he doesn't think it's anything to worry about, he didn't want to take a sample because it was very vascular. There was an odd area in her peritoneum which he took a biopsy of and there was a yellowish area in her abdomen that looked egg-yolky which he also took a sample of. They were draining fluid from her during this procedure and her heart rate and blood pressure dropped so they had to stop. The biopsy results today were all negative, there is no sign of cancer!! They don't understand why she was leaking so much fluid but she had steroids for the past few days and been drained a few times so she is SO much better now. They think it may have been some kind of reaction to the egg yolk in her belly but it's not the typical "egg yolk peritonitis" because there were a lot of lymphocytes and macrophages in her fluid, that's why they thought it was lymphoma. She'll get more steroids and antibiotics over the next few weeks and hopefully she'll be fine. He also gave her a shot to shut down her ovary for the next month and we'll have to continue with this I'm expecting because she is so "friendly". So this is the second time we were told she had cancer and we thought it was the end and both times it turned out to be great news!! And to think I almost cancelled this trip to Guelph because we were told she had lymphoma and I thought, what's the point, she's going to die at some time. But that little voice told me to go just like when we went in June and look how it turned out again. This is one complicated bird that has a lot of people puzzled right now!! They are still going to try and sort out what's going on with her. Today happens to be her five year anniversary that she walked into our house and into our lives!! We are going home tomorrow, proud parents again!!


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## TAWhatley

What an amazing update, Cathy! You are amazing .. Ruffles is amazing .. the vets are amazing. I truly hope that things will be going better for Ruffles from this point on. 

Terry


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## Margarret

Cathy,

What wonderful news. I'm so very very happy for you and Ruffles. She is one special bird with a very special mommy to care for her. Give her a scritch for me and a hug to you. This has been an awesome ordeal for you both. 

Margaret


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## mr squeaks

Oh my, Cathy, GREAT NEWS!

I hope with all my heart that Ruffles will be fine and not have to go through further tests!

Sending LOVE, HUGS AND SCRITCHES TO YOU ALL!

Of course, please keep us updated!

Shi & Squeaks


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## Zenmont

Cathy,

I've been reading this thread starting since last March and almost feel like I'm experiencing all the emotions you've been going through! I think my keyboard may short-circuit from all the tears. I think at this point it's safe to say that God is definitely watching over this bird, with you appointed as her guardian angel. You have to ask yourself (and I believe you did a short time ago), would God take this bird now after all these wonderful successes? There's no way. This is just a temporary trial you two have to go through (for whatever reason), but the end result will be positive. I feel it in my bones.


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## Reti

Great news. I am so happy it is not lymphoma.
Hope you can get to the bottom of this.
Thanks for the wonderful update.

Reti


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## Skyeking

I'm happy to hear she is cancer free, hope this other health issue can be remedied permanently. Happy 5th anniversary...too!


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## misty

*Update from Ruffles*

Hi guys, it's been a long time since I posted! Ruffles is doing well. She is still on steroids and getting the Lupron shot every month. The Lupron is not working 100% so Dr. Taylor is getting in another drug to try. She really needs to get her ovary out but they've never done that type of surgery in Guelph so we don't have many options. I guess she'll be on steroids forever, we've tried to take her off them a couple of times but she fills up with fluid too much. So as of now, she's holding her own, it is my life's mission to keep her as well as possible!! We started building our new house last fall and there were many times I didn't think Ruffles would be around to move into it, but we're moving into it in a few weeks, ALL of us (I kept telling her it was a goal that she had to live for)!!


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## Charis

Thanks for the up-date. I was just wondering about her yesterday.


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## mr squeaks

That is great news, Cathy!! 

We are all pulling for Ruffles and hope your updates continue to be positive!

She sure sounds like a "survivor!"

Please keep us updated! Ruffles sure has the BEST family!

With continuing LOVE, HUGS and SCRITCHES

Shi


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## Maggie-NC

Cathy, you can't know how happy I am that you updated the good news about Ruffles. I have had both of you on my mind for a week....honest! I had even thought about asking Pidgey if he had, by any chance, heard from you privately.

If ever a little pigeon had such loving, caring parents, Ruffles does. 

Again, thank you so much for letting us know she is still well. All of you enjoy your new home.


----------

