# Found injured erratic pigeon in Oakland CA



## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

I just joined this group. Last Saturday we found a pigeon who couldn't fly away. 

We've been keeping him in a cage for the last week and feeding him birdseed. I have provided him with water but have not seen him drink any. We brought him out a couple of times to see if he could fly back to his nest area but so far it doesn't seem like a likely possibility. At first we thought he had an injured wing, after more observation, he just seems really unsteady just with walking. In the last couple of days he has been exhibiting a crazy kind of spinning behavior which seems to be getting worse. He also eats rather erratically, sort of with the side of his beak and he also twists his neck around in an odd manner.

I've successfully cared for and release 3 pigeons in the past but they were all babies who fell off the nearby overpass and they were easily rehabilitated. This is an adult pigeon and I'm at a loss and kind of scared as to what could be going on. Any help, advice and or local contacts would be greatly appreciated.

thanks!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi moonbeam, 



What you describe are rather typical "PPMV" symptoms, or one order of them, anyway...or the order of them I associate with youngish Adults of only a few years of age.

If you can, figure to keep him for certainly some while, months anyway, or, depending on his ultimate recovery, indefinitely.


Many suffer the syptoms for a while, and, recover to what seems a full extent, or seem to recover fully, regaining all their poise, abilitys and so on, to where one would never know they had encountered the PPMV.

Others, remain 'twisted' or 'loopy' indefinitely...or, will show some 'Star Gazing' or other aspect when stressed by excitement or enthusiasm or intiidation.

In every instance I have dealt with, PPMV survivors who are not release-able, are readilly amenible to being entirely charming 'floor Birds' or 'House Birds', and or enjoy to be favored 'pets' who get lots of attention, lap-time, hugs and kissed, and so on...if of course, one spends gentle time with them, and encourages the progress to do so.


So, either way, time will tell...


If he is eating on his own, you and him are fortunate, since many can not do so and have to be fed by hand for a while, till they get over that phase.



Salmonella, 'poisons', trauma to the Brain, enteric food poisoning, and maybe other things too, can make for similar symptoms-behavior also...as can dehydration.


How are the poops? Consistancy wise, color wise, White-Urate wise and otherwise?




Phil
l v


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

MoonBeam said:


> *I just joined this group.* Last Saturday we found a pigeon who couldn't fly away.
> 
> We've been keeping him in a cage for the last week and feeding him birdseed. I have provided him with water but have not seen him drink any. We brought him out a couple of times to see if he could fly back to his nest area but so far it doesn't seem like a likely possibility. At first we thought he had an injured wing, after more observation, he *just seems really unsteady just with walking.
> 
> ...


Welcome to Pigeon Talk. 

The symptoms sound very much like PMV. 
It may not be, however I'm going to post the link to Cynthia's (cryo51) very valuable information regarding this illness. http://www.pigeon-aid.pigeon.net/pmv.htm

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Daily housing for PMV*

Thanks for the links- you guys are the best! PMV sounds very scary.

Up until now we have been bringing the pigeon into a large cage during the day so he could sit on the balcony and be in the sun and "eat" etc. At night we would bring him inside and he would sleep in a smaller cage.

If he has PMV, should I simply keep him in the smaller indoor cage and not bring him outside anymore? 

When he's in the dark he seems to just sleep and not do much eating.

I'm going to try to get some photos him and poop and maybe video today


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

MoonBeam said:


> Thanks for the links- you guys are the best! PMV sounds very scary.
> 
> Up until now we have been bringing the pigeon into a large cage during the day so he could sit on the balcony and be in the sun and "eat" etc. At night we would bring him inside and he would sleep in a smaller cage.
> 
> ...


* For the time being, I would suggest keeping him in an *adequate size* cage, indoors. Place the cage in a quite area of your home, away from human & animal traffic. If it is PMV, the less stress on the bird the better.

** That would be great. 

Cindy


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MoonBeam said:


> Thanks for the links- you guys are the best! PMV sounds very scary.




It is just one of various illnesses they can get.

With this one, as with any, just observe basic hygene and maybe wrap a cardboard 'band' around the cage at the sides at the bottom, so it has a two inch 'skirt' around it, to keep any errant poops from falling out or getting kicked out.

Wash your hands before handling other Pigeons, just for prudence sake.

Have his Seed and Water Bowls be only his...etc.

Since the PPMV is a Virus, we do well to be a little extra observant of keeping it from possibly infecting any other Pigeons we may have.




> Up until now we have been bringing the pigeon into a large cage during the day so he could sit on the balcony and be in the sun and "eat" etc. At night we would bring him inside and he would sleep in a smaller cage.



Sounds very good to me...excellent...

Ditect Sunlight will benifit him...as will the fresh outdoor Air.




> If he has PMV, should I simply keep him in the smaller indoor cage and not bring him outside anymore?



Having him out in a Cage by day is very good, just so long as he is safe and no Cats or kids or other can bother him.[/quote]

When he's in the dark he seems to just sleep and not do much eating.

I'm going to try to get some photos him and poop and maybe video today[/QUOTE]


He might sleep more than usual, or stay put more than usual...which is not uncomon for his version of this illness.


Occasional Vitamine-mineral suppliments would be good...



So long as he is not anxious or trying to fly or thrash where he could hurt himself, a large Cage is fine...or any size he seems cofortable in.


I have had quite a few PPMV Pigeons of all ages.


Many adult ones recovered fully, sometimes after only a few weeks.

Others take longer, or do not fully recover.


Either way, if you have it in you, and havethe time, you may as well make friends with him.

When he is indoors, have him next to where-ever you are, and reach in and learn to visit in ways he will like, soothing preens or scritches, gentle vocalizations and admires...seed in your palm, Tummy-rubs, and if this works, his level of stress will be less. 

Have him on your Lap on-a-towel, when you are on the Computer, and have a soothing hand next to his Wing.


And if he ends up non-releaseable you will have a nice head-start on his being a relaxed and easy going house Bird, happy to enjoy Lap Times and fine with being handled.

If it does not work, of course his level of stress will be greater for being bothered..! Usually this will work well, even if it takes a little time to evolve.


But, if it does work, it is a nice thing then for you both.


If he ends up being releseable, he will revert to being 'Wild' soon as he is out that door...if not sooner.


Good luck with this..!


Phil
l v


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

Ok, here are photos and videos. I'll be posting some poop photos soon:

http://dirtfromthecreek.blogspot.com/


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

What a beautiful pigeon! Those are pretty classic PMV symptoms but could also be the result of trauma or even paratyphoid. Try putting the seed (and don't mix grit with the seed) in a deeper bowl that is still wide enough for the pigeon to go in with the head sideways and "scoop" up seeds. His/her coordination is not such that he can peck seeds and he has no choice but to try and scoop up the seeds however he can. If you aren't syringe or tube feeding the bird, you need to be doing so. It's also going to be important to keep a close watch on the weight of the bird. Do you have a scale that will weigh in grams?

You've done a terrific job with this bird thus far. If you can just stick with it, you will have a happy ending here!

Terry


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi MoonBeam,



Just as Terry mentions, this looks to me also, to be consistant with PPMV often appears, in Adult or mid-life Adult Pigeons...


And, also, to agree with Terry further, that a deeper Bowl, even a low Tea Cup ( Twist Tie the Handle to the Cage side so it will stay upright ) would be best for his Seeds, so he can peck them better.


I usually use Tea Cups for these, and fortheir Water, I use the flat Bottom low-ish Coffee Cups - both of course may be had at any Thrift Strore for like 25 Cents apiece.



If he is not getting enough to eat on his own, usually, PPMV Pigeons are very easy and co-operative for accepting Seeds being put into their Beak in a manner we usually call 'Seed Pops'.

This is fun, easy, does not take much time, and in these cases, the Pigeon really appreciates it and soon shows definite positive interests for it...some even opening their Beaks in anticipation for the next Seed to be 'popped' in.

In fact, the occasions where I have had to do this for a while for PPMV adults, I can recall none who were ever other than happy and easy about it, and appreciative and co-operative with it.




They can have a phase of time with this illness where their pecking is just too inneffecient, and 'Seed-Pop' is a great way to keep them fed till they get better and can get back into pecking.


If this is something you feel the need to do, just ask us and I or someone else here will run you through it.


Possibly your Pigeon will manage well enough without it...just by having a deeper Seed Bowl.


Just feel his Crop off and on each day, and see how full it is, and also, see how the Poops are doing, and if there are plenty of new ones each day.

He definitely looks like a sweet, comfortable, grown-up Pigeon who has a gentle nature, and is appreciating your looking after him.



Phil
l v


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Feeding Instructions?*

Pictures of his cage floor after almost 24hrs will be posted shortly to the blog:

http://dirtfromthecreek.blogspot.com/

There was one raisin-like poop, the rest were more like stains on the paper. So, it appears it is not getting enough to eat. Feeding and hydrating instructions would be greatly appreciated.

We put up a Pigeon Cam:

http://209.204.189.152:8010/

where you can watch...

Thank you all for your help!


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

MoonBeam said:


> Pictures of his cage floor after almost 24hrs will be posted shortly to the blog:
> 
> http://dirtfromthecreek.blogspot.com/
> 
> ...


Dunno if it's just me, but I only got a blank screen. Great idea though, if it works out. It sounds to me like this guy needs help feeding and drinking for now...


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TheSnipes said:


> Dunno if it's just me, but I only got a blank screen. Great idea though, if it works out. It sounds to me like this guy needs help feeding and drinking for now...


I was able to see it. Poor guy is just standing there. Wonder if anyone is home with him or where he's being kept? I didn't want to keep watching because I was afraid he'd fall over on his back or something and not be able to get up and I'd freak out............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

TheSnipes said:


> Dunno if it's just me, but I only got a blank screen. Great idea though, if it works out. It sounds to me like this guy needs help feeding and drinking for now...


Are you one high speed internet? I am and it takes a minute to load......maybe you didn't wait long enough? It does start out as a white screen........


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## TheSnipes (Apr 9, 2007)

Lovebirds said:


> Are you one high speed internet? I am and it takes a minute to load......maybe you didn't wait long enough? It does start out as a white screen........


I might have gotten impatient waiting. We're on satellite here at work - it's *says* it's broadband  those electrons are pretty slow.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I've been watching the Pigeon Cam........he stood really still for quite a while, turning his head upside down a few times, then all the sudden he starting spinning around. Went around maybe 4 or 5 times, but has settled down again now. I haven't seen his eat or drink.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

If he's outside...that kennel is not a safe place for him to be because the bars are too far apart.
I think he needs help eating too.
Poor thing.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Charis said:


> If he's outside...that kennel is not a safe place for him to be because the bars are too far apart.
> I think he needs help eating too.
> Poor thing.


 I was thinking the same thing. Don't know if the balcony is up high or ground level..........I kept thinking, what if a cat or hawk get after him? That would be one horrible thing to watch and not be able to do anything........


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I couldn't see it either.

I have 4 pigeons here at the moment that have a very severe form of PMV. One of them doesn't seem to even try to eat, so I am giving him Poly Aid at the end of each day, to give him the opportunity to try for himself so that he doesn't become dependent on hand feeding. When I check his crop it is absoutely concave.

One of the others spills 99% of her food, but she leaves a lot of healty poops so I know she is getting food.

I wish I could access your webcam!

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Cynthia, it just takes a long time to load.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Charis said:


> Cynthia, *it just takes a long time to load*.


How long is a long time? I've been waiting for 5 minutes.
Do I need to be more patient? 

At the bottom of the video it says 'done' .


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

You are much more patient than I am Cindy! I went for a wander round the house doing the locking up etc and then gave up.

Cynthia


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Do you see any boxes in the upper right hand corner of the box? If so click on the one most to the right.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

He's been eating for about 10 minutes......or at least making an attempt......can't tell if he's getting any or not because his back is to the camera. Keep waiting to see if he'll go for a drink...........


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Lovebirds said:


> He's been eating for about 10 minutes......or at least making an attempt......can't tell if he's getting any or not because his back is to the camera. Keep waiting to see if he'll go for a drink...........


He's still trying to eat..........45 minutes.....but I believe he's getting some food down. I could see the feed in the bowl and now I can see the bottom of the dish. I'm sure a lot of it got thrown out, but not THAT much......still hasn't gone for the water. He'll have to soon........the food is almost gone.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I have got it on but the bird is sort of out of focus. Then he turned sideways and became clear for a minute. His poor head is twisting a bit but at least he's standing up.

Hi Moonbeam,
Danni, the one I have had since February couldn't stand at all and his right side seemed useless. He just lay on his side in his box all day for a few weeks. He is brilliant now, is perfectly upright, can even perch on one leg, flies and feeds/drinks. I had to hold his head straight for him so he could try and feed himself but had to force feed him mainly for about six weeks. He stopped managing to drink for a while too, so I used to drop water on the side of his beak and he would sip it in. He needed to drink a lot. He always seemed a little better when he had a good drink. 
Good luck with this poorly one, I'm sure he'll make it with your help.

Janet


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Help is on the way!*

A member from this group is coming over tonight to show us how to feed MoonBeam.

I'm picking up Kaytee Exact formula on my home.

Don't worry the pigeon is safely indoors- in the cage, but next to a window so he can get natural light.

thanks again! I'll post updates.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Great! Let us know how that goes.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MoonBeam said:


> A member from this group is coming over tonight to show us how to feed MoonBeam.
> 
> I'm picking up Kaytee Exact formula on my home.
> 
> ...




Hi Moonbeam, 



There is absolutely no need to be talking about force feeding liquids or 'KT' in this situation.


The best thing, and the simplest, would be to learn how to do 'Seed Pops', and to feed your Pigeon several times a day with plain, whole Seeds, ideally those which occur in any quality Pigeon Seed Mix.

This is not a frail invalid or infant.

This is an adult Pigeon who untill a few days ago WAS eating whole Seeds, and he is used to them, and, his system is fine with them.


Probably there are Feed Stores somewhere in your area, where you could get some actual hi grade "Pigeon" mix Seeds.


If not, then I would be glad to list other Seeds and items which would be available in regular Stores or Petsmart....if you wanted me to do so.


I think it would be a very bad, dangerous and confused thing to be trying to suddenly learn to Tube Feed, for this Bird who does not need to BE Tube fed anyway, let alone, the dangers of a first timer trying to do it.


There is no reason to tube feed "KT" or anything else into this Pigeon.


Learn to do 'Seed Pops' and that will get him through just fine, and safely, and easily for you both.



It is easy to do, and the Pigeon and you will enjoy it.


I think I already said this a few posts back when I was anticipating that your Pigeon might not be pecking well enough to feed himself.



Is there some reason why you would not wish to do this? Or even to consider to do this?

Some reason why you would refuse to do 'Seed Pop' for this Bird? But instead, are about to force on him a proceedure which has no reason to be done, and which is potentially lethal or injurious in the hands of the inexperienced?


I a having trouble understanding your reasoning here with this decision of 'KT' in this context.



Phil
l v


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I probably should stay out of this seeing as how I've never dealt with a PMV bird before, but isn't that glass of water too deep for a birds with this condition? Just asking..............


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

This member does have a member on the way to lend a hand and go over supportive care. Sometimes it is helpful to observe, rather than try to figure out how to implement written instruction.
It's always good to have exact on hand.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Lovebirds said:


> I probably should stay out of this seeing as how I've never dealt with a PMV bird before, but isn't that glass of water too deep for a birds with this condition? Just asking..............



Hi Lovebirds, 



Should be fine for this Bird...


If prone to contortions which are tantamount to incapacitating siezures, or lapses of unconsiousness, then Water is best to be only offered now and then, and not left in the Cage.


Phil
L v


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Lovebirds,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okey Dokey..........I've been watching the bird off and on today and although he shows PMV symptoms......I've seen videos/pictures of worse.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Moonbeam, all...




The simplest and most elegant thing to do for this Pigeon to help him to eat...

Is just to have him on your lap, on a towel, so he is easy and sure footed...and comfortable...


And, with a Seed Bowl under his Beak for easy pecking, just 'cup' your Hand over his Head to steady his Head, or gently help him however so, so he can peck straight 'down'...and not end up 'wangling'.


Some PPMV adults go through a phase where they are not opening their Beak enough to get anything, regardless of their pecking style otherwise, and, if this is the case ( and if you do the above mentioned proceedure with him, you would be able to see if he is opening his Beak enough to get the Seeds, or not...)


So, if this is the case, if he is not opening his Beak enough, then the kindest, safest, simplest, and most sensible and proper thing to do, is 'Seed Pops'.


Trying to force feed "KT" to an adult Pigeon who does not need it, especially with the dangers of an inexperienced person doing it, is a bad idea.

Further, it is not even an appropriate proceedure for this Bird anyway, and would not be elected by anyone who knew what to do or how to do it.




If you need to have some explaination on how to do 'Seed Pops' I would be glad to provide.




Best wishes, 

Phil
l v


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

So here's the update:

A very knowledgeable and extremely fabulous member of this group came over and showed us all sorts of things I have never seen before. 

To answer why we are having to manually feed the bird- it's because the bird is not drinking at all and it is in danger of being severely dehydrated.

So we're following her advice and will be continuing with her guidelines. 

Moonbeam actually seemed calmer and more comfortable after getting something in her tummy.

I'll be leaving the cam up for a while but I'm taking down the poop photos.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

That's really great news. It must feel good to know you have someone nearby that can help you if you need it. Good luck with Moonbeam and we'll keep an eye out via the cam.


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Another pigeon with PMV*

Well, Moonbeam seems to be doing much better.

I'm sorry to report that last night I found a juvenile exhibiting the same symptoms.

Our neighborhood pigeon expert from this group speculated that it may be Moonbeam's offspring.

So now we have two. At first they were in the same cage but we had to separate them as the adult started pecking at the baby and it was screaming.

The Baby Moonbeam is currently stumbling all over the place.

Feel free to take a look at the cam and provide advice.

http://209.204.189.152:8010/


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow, when it rains, it pours......I'm glad you're able to take care of these poor pigeons. I am somewhat nearby you (Santa Rosa) and also taking care of a PMV pij right now; I don't know if you have Pro Bios on hand but if not you're always welcome to some of mine. Of course, it would probably cost $300 in gas for the hour and a half trip each way, so probably cheaper to order it online.  Thanks for taking care of them and doing so much for them.


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Serious Question Here*

Ok pigeon peeps, if you look at the cam: http://209.204.189.152:8010/

you'll see that the adult- now in the interior cage, is doing a lot better.

The baby however is really quite badly off with regular seizures and constant contortions.

I've had the baby since Thursday June 5 in the evening and the PVM symptoms are way worse than they ever were with the adult and I'm wondering if I might be simply prolonging its suffering. 

Is there a point where euthanasia is the best option or is all this to be expected?

Please chime in.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

MoonBeam said:


> Is there a point where euthanasia is the best option or is all this to be expected?
> 
> Please chime in.


Well, the symptoms in the baby are very distressing to watch, but having seen this in pigeons a number of times before, I can assure you that the symptoms will eventually lessen (and they might even get worse for a short time before improvement is seen). In my opinion, euthanasia is not an option with PMV birds .. good supportive care and lots of time is the answer.

If I were caring for the young bird, I think I would try to house it in a much smaller area with toweling or some other non-skid flooring and also try to make a deep enough towel doughnut for the bird that it could hopefully stay more stationary and not be doing so much bumping and twisting around. Your setup is certainly fine .. I'm just trying to find some ways to make things a bit easier on the bird.

Hopefully other members with PMV experience and advice will be along shortly.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I will tell you that we have seen some miracles but I can't tell you if this will be one of them. The bird is in your care and you are dealing with it daily.... ultimately you are the only one that can decide the bird's fate. You need to go with your gut and you have to feel comfortable with your decision. If you aren't comfortable with your decision and you have the bird put down, it will haunt you forever.


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

The little girl I'm taking care of twists and turns something fierce. She seems stronger and more alert today but this morning she had about five minutes where she couldn't keep her balance to stand up and kept falling forward on her poor little head.  Of course when I saw this I carefully righted her and propped her up with some towels and she regained her balance after a few minutes. It seems to come in phases, the worst of it that is. 

I've also found it helps immensely to talk to her throughout the day and while we're doing feeding. She now opens her beak for the food to go in almost every time.  I think this is mostly due to me taking extra time to talk to her, pet her, tell her she's doing good. She really is responding to the praise and kind tone of voice. I hope yours do well, I'm sorry it's so hard to deal with!


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

*Scratch that--I have great news*

The baby is suddenly 10 times better today!

She's standing up and watching stuff happen around her.

Her neck is just at a slight angle as opposed to the usual completely twisted upside down mess that she used to be and I think the seizures have lessened as well.

Thanks for all your support!


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## MoonBeam (Jun 2, 2008)

I have a couple questions....

Overall I think the pigeons are doing better. The baby still spazzes out a lot but she has some quiet more normal-seeming times too.

The adult has recently started "sitting" instead of always standing as she has been. 

This morning I found 5 large feathers on the bottom of her cage. I don't know if these incidents are related but I thought I'd post to see if anybody had any ideas.

Another problem we have is that both pigeons have their heads covered in dried poop. I'm guessing this is from when they drag their heads around on the bottom of the cage. I currently am able to change the paper only once a day due to my work schedule.

Is there a way to wash them?


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

MoonBeam said:


> I have a couple questions....
> 
> Overall I think the pigeons are doing better. The baby still spazzes out a lot but she has some quiet more normal-seeming times too.
> 
> ...




Hi MoonBeam, 


Use close-woven Towels instead of paper..they absorb better, wll not encourage bacteria and yeast and mold growth like paper will, and are nicer on the Pigeon's Feet or for when they lay down.


It is kind of hard to wash the Heads of any Pigeon, and harder if it is a 'Wangler'..!


But, saturating the soiled Feathers with a wet Coth for a while, can help to gently wipe off what will wipe off.

One danger is that they can abrade, or abrade and infect an Eye, by dragging the side of their Head like that.


'Twisty' ones like this, I call 'Wanglers'...


I have a few over the last couple months even worse than yours, who if they get excited, twist so far around or under, they flip all they way upside down and then thrash. PPMV Pigeonshave exhagerated reflexes or reactions to small stresses which seem pretty severe at times.

The ones I have had who were like this got better to one degree or other, so, don't dispair..! They improve with time, and even when they do not get 100 percent over it, they manage, and muddle on, and can be really robust, radiantly Healthy happy Birds who just have a lttle 'wangley' gong on...


Some I have had who went through these 'wangley' phases got well 100 percent, so it can happen.

Others, 90 percent, others remaned 'Wanglers', trot around backward, stay 'twisted' with ther Heads next to their Feet much of the time, but become very well adjusted to ther handicap, eat and peck just fine on their own in ther own manner, enjoy things, have pals, and manage very well in every way as 'Floor Birds' or Cage Birds if need be, but they prefer being 'Floor Birds'and having autonomy of course.


Phil
l v


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