# Quality Over Quantity



## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Here is an issue i have,the overcrowding of lofts, and the lack personal duty to the individual. Now I'm sure that there are people who have 25 pairs and can identify every single one and so forth,but i know there are people who simply breed for numbers,for a big team,and then when the YB season is over,and there is no room for the "weak",they are sold off or killed or sometimes just,let go.
Before i bought a loft,or a bird, i studied every night for hours on anything i could pull up on the net. from breeders to pigeon facts and how tos and racers to famous fanciers and pigeons. And something stuck with me to this day...the Janssens. How in order to get a bird from him if you werent a close personal friend,you HAD to wait months,maybe years before you could even get one,no matter how much you begged or cried or how much money you offered. And that is a quality in a breeder than i respect.
I have 9 pigeons at the moment,and i suppose by the end of the year that number may be doubled. But i know my birds. I know some people cant find the time, but i sit and watch my birds for hours,literally. I watch each one, i see each of their individual personalities, i know them all by name, i know who gets along with whom,which one is brave or shy,which one is this or that. i take the time to know them. And i think that besides the initial training and conditioning,and yes bloodline in your pigeon, the overall factor that determines the quality of your pigeon, is the individual amount of personal love and care and attention and dedication and loyalty to your pigeon that makes it a quality bird.
When i start racing, i doubt i will send more than 1 pigeon to the race at a time. Not because of costs,but because i wont let them get held back by the rest. i dont want them to feel liable for the group. to me, the loyalty and love and quality of your bird can be determined best by not how it will do against hundreds or thousands, but if it will make it back to you. speed,stamina,power,these are things that can be trained into a bird. But persistence,loyalty,sheer drive and determination i think comes from the equality of what you put into them.
I just wanted to share that,for its been on my mind for a while now. I am not undermining anyone or the way they choose to operate their loft. I just wanted to share that i wont be one to post here saying i have and overflux of pigeons that have to go,or one that wont shed tears over 1 bird that gets lost,or killed,or simply dies. I know,in the long run,this will not be good for my health to subject my soul to such suffering and heartache, but to me they suffer as well,being watched over like children,with creepy eyes and noses peering in on them constantly, strange hands holding them and examining them like slaves at an auction. The least i owe these birds, is to look at each one as an individual, and not as just part of the loft,or flock,or stock,or kit,or whatever.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. I appreciate your dedication to your passion. God Bless.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Thats deep. I agree with you. After a while you become a little more hardened to the idea of culling. Sometimes you might have a bad pigeon they are few and far between but you might get a cockbird who bullys everyone or scalps and kills babys. And you get the ugly ones, the lazy ones and the dumb ones which also have to go because like you I want quality. I totally sound like Hitler don't I? But my birds arn't slaves or prisoners. They are happy and many of them are free to fly away if they wish the good ones always come home.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

thepigeonkey said:


> Thats deep. I agree with you. After a while you become a little more hardened to the idea of culling. Sometimes you might have a bad pigeon they are few and far between but you might get a cockbird who bullys everyone or *scalps and kills babys. And you get the ugly ones, the lazy ones and the dumb ones* which also have to go because like you I want quality. I totally sound like Hitler don't I? But my birds arn't slaves or prisoners. They are happy and many of them are free to fly away if they wish the good ones always come home.


the bully everyone naw i wouldnt kill for that. Tyson bullies everyone but he has other things to do than bully all day long. But then thats just him, if the cock was killing babies, id consider removing him and isolating him,like forever.doubt id kill him tho,would want to,doubt i would. as for ugly lazy and dumb ones, lol. I guess. To me ugliness is beheld by the beholder. Laziness? Pshh. Let it be lazy and dont fly it with the team. After all the strain most pigeons go through,every loft needs that fat lazy pigeon. that my opinion tho. as for dumb ones...let them be dumb. Their natural consequence should follow. Ever consider making a section for "duds",hahaha.I dont know,i was taught dont kill,unless you kill to eat or you kill to save the life of one or more.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I like the way you view your birds. They are your pets and you really care for each one of them. You do like I do. Spend time with them and get to know each one individually. You sound more like a keeper, but not a racer. Think it will bother you too much to lose any, which if you race, you will. I know each of my birds also, and each ones personality, but I don't race. I have a rescue loft. I love my birds and enjoy them. I think your birds are very lucky.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Shhh dont say the K word lol
I'm confused. You want quality rather than quantity aye???
Culling means selling, swapping, giving away, ect.
Don't think about it too deeply otherwise you'll stop using flyspray and mouse traps.
I know your mostly talking about racing but it applies to the fancys, performance and working birds too. Quality to me is as much about health as it is overall appearance and performance.
You can have quality or you can have quantity and also you can have quality and quantity, if you have neither I guess you call it a few crappy birds lol. Anyways I see already you have quality not quantity. Keep it that way.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks Jay3. Pigeon Keeper. That sounds dope. Like I own the keys to the "Gate of Pigeons" hahaha
Thepigeonkey, my bad no more K word. I forgot. I wasnt talking bout just racers, all types. Rollers tumblers tipplers shows and all those far and between. And I dont ise flystrips or mousetraps lol.
Im trying to keep them healthy. I learn everyday what makes their feathers shine, gives them muscle, stimulation, etc.. and if you put it that way, yea I cull. I just rather have 4 great birds than 10 good birds. 
I just dream that one day my birds will be prized for their quality, and if you want one you can wait until its born, and even then youre not guaranteed one because id have to make sure its to my standards..
I want people to talk about the Dizon strain..in racers, and maybe with these tumblers im breeding. I think itd be cool to be able to trace something like that to just a pair of unbanded homers and tumblers, haha now thatd be a good story to read on PT when im 64


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

Like myself I think your gonna struggle with the temptation of breeding more birds to see what the next generation could perform or look like. 
Its the end of the breeding season here so I'm splitting the hens and cocks up but the young birds bred at the start of the season are starting to pair up with eachother I'm tempted to see the next generation already. They breed sooo fast.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

You might go down in history for a great strain or a new mutation. And people will say "Remember that Dizon guy? he ate every pigeon he culled" lol


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Hahaha now thatd be cool, I think..lol
But im really not that tempted to breed more. Im actually very content with everyone at the moment. Im actually gonna dunmy egg their next round or two. Id rather condition and train them to their peaks before I consider the next generations. I have a theory that the condition and level of your pigeon can be passed down. I dont want untrained unconditioned birds breeding. I know I may not be right but hey you never know with these pigeons, ive come to learn that. Kind of like growing up with a dad who bodybuilds, you admire that as a youth and it effects the way you care for yourself.
Id rather be known for the guy you couldnt get a bird from unless he screened you, or the guy that created these awesome tumblers and racers, or the guy that had a certain amount of pigeons you could remember them all by name and look, lol not the guy that culled birds then ate them. If I cull, im going to make sure they stay alive. And if they pass, they get buried, not tossed out or eaten. If I end up with a birdy graveyard, so be it.


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## njhntr (Jun 5, 2012)

well said my new friend


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here is an article I always liked, it is about Ron Sampford and his 8x5 loft. he is gone now. but I still remember the article when talking about small lofts. you may like it. here is the link.
http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/tiny-loft-fascinating-pigeon-racing-method/


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

spirit wings said:


> here is an article I always liked, it is about Ron Sampford and his 8x5 loft. he is gone now. but I still remember the article when talking about small lofts. you may like it. here is the link.
> http://www.pigeonracingpigeon.com/whats-new/tiny-loft-fascinating-pigeon-racing-method/


Hahaha...HAHAHA! Thats what im talking bout! Rons the coolest, thanks for sharing that link! Ahh that made me feel all good inside. Might have to carry that concept on hahaha


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## Zippy (Nov 20, 2011)

I agree about the over breeding and culling. When I was a kid the old timers would get angry with me for not culling. They would always tell me that in my effort to save a single bird I was potentially killing an entire breed. As much as I never had the ability to do it myself, looking at it from the cold facts they were probably right. All of the breeds that we enjoy today came from diligent culling over hundreds of years. For every person that doesn't cull the success of their breeding hinges on finding a home for all the birds that don't meet the standard of their breed. That or build house after house and enormous amounts of feed to support all those birds. If anything is going to kill the pigeon fancy it will be the lack of will to follow through with the most difficult aspect of it. And I admittedly am one of those who's soft heart won't allow me to destroy something I love no matter how far it is from the standard.


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## thepigeonkey (Oct 12, 2011)

I like your honesty and logic zippy.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

Quality is opposed to Quantity.
*
If you love animals, you should have been giving your life for them.
Treat them like human beings: no imprisonment, no birth control, offer them freedom.
*
Since the beginning, the Creator made the rule of the survival of the fittest.
The humans have the rights to live equally, but the animals not.
There is not enough food for all humans and animals on earth at that moment.
*
If you do not race pigeons, you can keep all them alive as long as your pocket is full.
If you race pigeons, you are talking about Quality.
Quality means the application of the survival of the fittest.
*
I have read the article about Ron, the pigeon racer.
He kept a small number of pigeons.
He killed all the rest.
Is it simple? Or too difficult to understand him?
*


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

anhmytran said:


> Quality is opposed to Quantity.
> *
> If you love animals, you should have been giving your life for them.
> Treat them like human beings: no imprisonment, no birth control, offer them freedom.
> ...


Sounds simple enough to me.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

anhmytran said:


> Quality is opposed to Quantity.
> *
> If you love animals, you should have been giving your life for them.
> Treat them like human beings: no imprisonment, no birth control, offer them freedom.
> ...


You sure post some strange thoughts. HAVE you really any experiance with pigeons. And you use the word KILL often.. Quality means that and that means moving towards a goal. trying to improve your birds maintaining your better birds every bird can not be used as lesser birds are born then better birds.. DOES not mean kill.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

You may use the alternative word that has more severe meanings: CULL.
*
I am very experience with pigeons - utility pigeons rather than racing pigeons.
That was the time I was in Asia before I entered the US.
I have a small farm to raise utility pigeons that are very close to feral pigeons.
I just provided them food and shelters. They are free to fly, and always be home.
I sold their squabs to nearby restaurants, and I keep those which gave me good squabs.
I really did not kill those which did not give me good squabs.
I just sold them away at lower prices.
However, I knew that these birds would not last long after being sold.
*
Besides, I have taken some biology in school and college on genetic studies.
The theory is that you can get 1 good mutation amongst thousands of individuals.
Of course, the theory need not to use these words Kill or Cull.
*
In human world, how many competitive athletics the coaches can get from million kids?
We never kill or cull or massacre millions of people to get some to send to Olympic Games.
These others just buy tickets to watch them in competition or in the races.
*
You say about Quality, but do you really know how to get these quality birds?
Are you sure you go to pigeon auctions to get the champions for the next race?
*


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

if you race, you CAN give people birds you dont need. or keep them...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Although PT encourages open discussions on all legitimate subjects, the "Forum Rules Of Conduct" in About Pigeon Talk specifically forbids the topic of "lethal culling" under #2, dot point #2. Please continue the topic of Quality Over Quantity without discussing this area of the subject. We are aware that this occurs, but do not think it is an appropriate topic of discussion on a pigeon friendly forum. Thank you!


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes. You can give people the birds you do not want.
However, you have difficulties in finding the people who want your birds.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

anhmytran said:


> Yes. You can give people the birds you do not want.
> However, you have difficulties in finding the people who want your birds.


very true.... and acknowleged. it is not always easy. but keepers who rise to keep life or try are pretty cool in my book.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

I wanted to ask the average ratio of big teams that produce good birds of say..idk..20-30? that perform well look well and actually come back and show good "behavior" in their home and the smaller teams of say 1-10YBs?
Do the smaller teams lose around the same percentage? Or do they seem to return in around the same numbers? Do the big teams tend to fly off and split away or stay more tightly formed due to the amount of pigeons?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

anhmytran said:


> You may use the alternative word that has more severe meanings: CULL.
> *
> I am very experience with pigeons - utility pigeons rather than racing pigeons.
> That was the time I was in Asia before I entered the US.
> ...


First utility birds Are larger then feral birds. From 2 to 5 times larger. You raised them for slaughter. A person any person removes birds. They can be sold .gave away , MUTATION is that that is not in pigeons breeding any good bird. That as anything is a mutation A changed type. People and pigeons are very much different And any training people do Can not be applied to training pigeons. Pigeons are select bred and select kept when used in RACE OR SHOW. DO I KNOW about Quality in pigeons. I would hope I do. The hobby of pigeons has much to offer. And much to learn about a persons chosen breed of pigeon. This thread speaks of QUALITY instead of quanity. Quality comes from proper selection. But a percent of quanity has to take place to achive quality After quality has been made Still a person has to breed and select towards it. And here in the USA today. HAWKS are a big set back. To flying. a small team of birds is allways better to manage and train. BUT training is conditioning. and part of the selection. Quality is the bird is good enough to stand up to the test. More are not few are. It takes years to build a loft. It takes a lifetime to maintain it. Because there is someone else that it trying the same. That is why EVEN the pigeon has a following.


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## Pouter Guy (Oct 11, 2012)

kingdizon,I appreciate that you want the best for your birds. Its good to have somebody like you in the pigeon hobby. BUT,(please do not take this the wrong way),you are CRAZY! If you try to race ONE bird,that one will get lost on training or hawk attack.
If your going to spend 100's on a racing clock,please put in AT LEAST 8 birds so you can make up for the losses. The chances of you ONE bird going thru the training and all 8 races in the series,are 99,000 to 1. If you enter say,8 birds,you will lose on average 3,so you have 5 birds in the race. Now,you will probly have 3(possibly 4) birds left after the race. If I thought like you and had the same set-up,I would just keep a small kit of homers to fly for my own personal enjoyment and show those tumblers you have.
Take it or leave it,thats just my two cents.

Thanks


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

Pouter Guy said:


> kingdizon,I appreciate that you want the best for your birds. Its good to have somebody like you in the pigeon hobby. BUT,(please do not take this the wrong way),you are CRAZY! If you try to race ONE bird,that one will get lost on training or hawk attack.
> If your going to spend 100's on a racing clock,please put in AT LEAST 8 birds so you can make up for the losses. The chances of you ONE bird going thru the training and all 8 races in the series,are 99,000 to 1. If you enter say,8 birds,you will lose on average 3,so you have 5 birds in the race. Now,you will probly have 3(possibly 4) birds left after the race. If I thought like you and had the same set-up,I would just keep a small kit of homers to fly for my own personal enjoyment and show those tumblers you have.
> Take it or leave it,thats just my two cents.
> 
> Thanks


Hahaha. Thanks.(not sarcasm really, thanks) lol. Id say im a lil crazy. I would never just continuously train only one bird by itself. And enter it in a say one loft race with 3rounds...and expect it to return tho rare it does happen. Any team I have will be under 10. Im not a rich man I cant afford to spend a good 300 a bird to enter them into races. If i spend hundreds on a clock, its an investment. It will last and get use out of it. The clock is really the main thing that allows you to race. But I understand your point of sending multiple birds to make up for the evident loss of a few so the rest can still go on to compete, and it will also allow me to get some use out of the clock, rather than wasting paper and money to just clock in once.lol. I understand that fully.
But that wont stop me from trying to race eventually. I know im crazy, because I would rathersrather send one bird off to a one loft race every now and then, knowing the risks involved and the investment given, just to one day get that one warrior, that one hard pigeon thatll make it back home when its said and done. To have that one pigeon that was alone, that everyone just looked at as a race cull, and beat everyone. To me that would make me prouder than seeing 3-5 come back(which I will do, I wont one bird race forever and ever). But thats why I thanked you, cuz crazy is the word. Cuz when I see 99, 000 to 1, well, my and my pigeons like those odds.
The tumblers will never be shown, ever. They are mixed and have no place in show. The tumblers are my personal enjoyment, because im breeding them for flying purposes. I know Isound absurd, crazy, and idealistic. But thats ok. Because I adhere to the saying..it only takes one to win. And it does happen. If it has the will. It could happen, it just might. Im not the type to be discouraged or lose hope easily in times pof evident failure. 
Thanks for saying its good to have people like me in the hobby. I appreciate that. Ill take your advice to heart.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

Many years ago, I raised pigeons for their squabs.
Therefore, I call my bird utility pigeons.
They are indeed feral pigeons, for they are not any of other kinds.
*
Nowadays, in my old country, people still raise this kind of pigeons for squabs.
They also raise a hybrid of feral and King pigeons.
*
When I raised pigeons, I do not keep them in the farm.
They were free to fly as they like.
They were very good homers, for the birds I sold away would come back when
the buyers accidentally lost them. After that, the buyers came back to claim their birds.
However, the buyers were not more than 10 miles away from my home.
I think this was not a big deal, for my eyes could see the church tower in the buyers
villages. How couldn't the bird find the way home?
*
Mutation is the word for new allele in the DNA.
Mutations make all kinds of animals, and strains of pigeons.
People select the birds that carry the allele they like, multiple them,
and then line breed them into the strain that carry this allele.
*
However, not all birds from a pair of parents are equal, or exactly the same DNA.
Brothers and Sisters of a champion do not always get high positions in racing.
On the other hands, not always the birds from a certain strain get high positions.
Therefore, nobody knows for sure if there is some alleles make champion or not.
*
They just think that they raise few hundreds of birds, train them, race them against
one another to select them. It is the way they have more chance to get quality.
*
Some Analogs:
Select the Jews into Violin School, the Caucasian to swimming school, the Chinese girls
to skating school, the Blacks to running school and basket ball school, etc.
Select by thousands, then we get the champions.
*


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

anhmytran said:


> You may use the alternative word that has more severe meanings: CULL.
> *
> I am very experience with pigeons - utility pigeons rather than racing pigeons.
> That was the time I was in Asia before I entered the US.
> ...


What? Are you saying CULL has more lethal meanings that KILL, I am sorry thats plain crazy, Kill means KIll, thats that, It is probably the most "lethal" word one can use. CULL however has many meanings, I culled 20 birds yesterday for example. None are dead, All have a new home at a friends large property where they will be looked after and free flown.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

anhmytran said:


> Many years ago, I raised pigeons for their squabs.
> Therefore, I call my bird utility pigeons.
> They are indeed feral pigeons, for they are not any of other kinds.
> *
> ...


Yeah you're right in what you said. But what happens to those 100s that don't live up to the breeders standard? Thats why I cant do big numbers like that. Id rather have a small amount and work on them that way. Yes youre analogy is correct, tho I smh at the way it was put.but the worst "player" ever, can practice and refine and become a champ. And some are just born that way. I wish more people would take the time to refine the skills of a pigeon than just cull it tho. But then itd prolly be in vain. In whatever case breeding large amounts to find that one good one is not my style. Od rather breed a handful. I look at it as more numbers, less probability, less numbers, better probability.


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## anhmytran (Jan 5, 2013)

Kingdizon:
Your way is ideal.
Other people's way is feasible and practical.
*


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Take your TIME. It takes a while to build a QUALITY set of birds. A good solid start helps speed it up. Be it show type race type or general performnce birds. AND a person has and must select hard towards there goal. IT is easyer to raise and train for old bird racing. As the younmg are given more time to mature befor they are pushed. Old timers Mostly raced old bird. NOW days well many would rather race young bird. WILL that tear down the selection over time I believe it will have a impact. AS one year wonders have a one year records. And often very few solid results. Where a bird raced say 4 to 5 years has showed what it can do over and over That does not mean it had to race to the 500 or more It was raced to the person want on distance. Where a show bird has a STANDARD to go by and bred towrds Then THE real sectret is the STOCK bird it may never be show type but have plenty of the needed tools to raise show type birds. So go slow test hard select right Hope for the best


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

re lee said:


> Take your TIME. It takes a while to build a QUALITY set of birds. A good solid start helps speed it up. Be it show type race type or general performnce birds. AND a person has and must select hard towards there goal. IT is easyer to raise and train for old bird racing. As the younmg are given more time to mature befor they are pushed. Old timers Mostly raced old bird. NOW days well many would rather race young bird. WILL that tear down the selection over time I believe it will have a impact. AS one year wonders have a one year records. And often very few solid results. Where a bird raced say 4 to 5 years has showed what it can do over and over That does not mean it had to race to the 500 or more It was raced to the person want on distance. Where a show bird has a STANDARD to go by and bred towrds Then THE real sectret is the STOCK bird it may never be show type but have plenty of the needed tools to raise show type birds. So go slow test hard select right Hope for the best


Thanks re lee. Thats good advice. Lol, I am going to have to learn to stretch me patience to..years


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

Kindizon, I have also found the patients thing hard, After seven years I am starting to see the results I want in a few colour projects and show breeds but just started racing so needing to test the patients again and not be to quick to judge the birds, Got all but 1 home within 4 hours from our first 100 mile race today so happy with that, Hopefully the last one will be back.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Kindizon, I have also found the patients thing hard, After seven years I am starting to see the results I want in a few colour projects and show breeds but just started racing so needing to test the patients again and not be to quick to judge the birds, Got all but 1 home within 4 hours from our first 100 mile race today so happy with that, Hopefully the last one will be back.


Thats great youre finally seeing results! You must be proud
Hope that last one gets back


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## NZ Pigeon (Nov 12, 2011)

kingdizon said:


> Thats great youre finally seeing results! You must be proud
> Hope that last one gets back


Yeah, still a long way to go, Not great results but I am far down the back off the race line so I need to develop and select birds that have good ability to break early and fire home, Through both select breeding and training I'll get there, Will be a work in progress, Check back in fourty years lol.


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## kingdizon (Jan 14, 2013)

NZ Pigeon said:


> Yeah, still a long way to go, Not great results but I am far down the back off the race line so I need to develop and select birds that have good ability to break early and fire home, Through both select breeding and training I'll get there, Will be a work in progress, Check back in fourty years lol.


Lol will do. Breed me a good one


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