# Bully Birds...........



## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I think most of us have had or maybe STILL have one of those bully birds that just disrupts everything all the time. 
Cricket had one and used this method and "fixed" the problem. I had heard about people using it, but could never get the courage to do it myself. I'm very good at GIVING advice, just not so good at listening to myself. LOL
Anyway, I had this cock bird in our widowhood loft. He was raising all kinds of cane, fighting, taking other nest boxes besides his, kicking the other birds out. I even, for about two weeks, had to go out every night after dark and pick up one bird off of the floor and put him in which ever nest box Bully didn't want that night. Other wise, he would have had to sleep on the floor. It was really getting totally rediculous. I tried locking him in his box. I tried locking all the other birds in their box and letting only this one loose and letting him figure out he couldn't get in thier box anymore. I tried taking him out of the loft all together. The very second I put him back in the loft, he started his crap again. I was at my wits end and told my husband I was pulling him from the race team, cause I was getting no where fast with this bird. I've had bullies but have never seen one as stubborn and determined as this one.
So..............I finally, not really wanting to, tied his legs together. Tied loosely enough that he could still walk, but tight enough that he couldn't throw that foot back and get in a good wing slap. He got his little feathery butt kicked about twice and HE got thrown out of the box he was trying to take. In less than 24 hours, he was a changed bird. I kept his legs tied for 3 days, just to be sure. He's now been loose for about 4 or 5 days, and he now stays in his box with his mate. He's not harrassing anyone at all. Even I was amazed at how well this method worked, even though I've told more than a few people about it. I attached a rubber band to two snap bands and twisted it so that he had just enough movement to walk. I've attached a picture so that you can see what I'm talking about.
It seemed that this was a cruel thing to do, but now that I've done it, and I know it works, it doesn't seem so cruel anymore. It doesn't hurt the bird and what's cruel is for all the other birds to constantly have to fight for thier space in the loft and constantly have to be on guard against the bully bird. All the birds in the loft are miserable because of ONE bird. THAT'S cruel. 
So.......if you've got that bully........try this. IT REALLY DOES WORK!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Renee...excellent!!! I'm glad this method worked for you and that Cricket's advice proved sound

It *does* seem a little mean but if it works when you've got a relentless bully bird, then it's totally worth it

I'd try this method on Eggbert myself if I thought it would work, but my dynamics are so very different from most peoples. Eggbert only has his son, Ricky to pick on and the odd thing is...Ricky is a sadomasochist


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi Renee...excellent!!! I'm glad this method worked for you and that Cricket's advice proved sound
> 
> It *does* seem a little mean but if it works when you've got a relentless bully bird, then it's totally worth it
> 
> I'd try this method on Eggbert myself if I thought it would work, but my dynamics are so very different from most peoples. Eggbert only has his son, Ricky to pick on and the odd thing is...Rick is a sadomasochist


Well, everybody's situation is different. When you're talking about pet birds, how much you are willing to put up with is up to you. If Eggbert could be "convinced" that picking on Ricky is not in his best interest.........then maybe Ricky's life would be a bit more happy.
In my situation, I was literally dealing with a race bird that could potentially ruin my race team with his dominance. 
This went on for a good month before I did anything about it. To think that the "problem" was fixed in one day after what I've done to try to keep the peace was mind boggling.......


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Yep, our situations are so very different, definitely You have large, outdoors lofts full of pigeons ...mostly racing homers but now you've got a few satinettes that you're thinking about breeding....plus I think you have other breeds in smaller numbers too. It's all a matter of dynamics for sure though. 

In my case, Eggbert rules the roost as the single most dominate male pigeon. I truly belive that his son (Ricky) is either "gay" or a sadomasochist like I said, lol . Ricky doesn't seem to mind one bit having the stuffing beat out of him and when him and Eggbert are put together. LOL.

It's SO strange...(sigh)


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Way to go, Renee!! I'm glad it worked out for you, and I'll keep that in mind for any future bullies.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow Renee...


"Genious!"

I will use this method next time I have one of 'those'...

...and I have had them, too...and they made everyone's Life a living Hell, including mine! Since 'my' Birds are inside ( recoveriong or recovered, pre-release ferals, growing up youngsters, and some few permenent non-releaseable ) Birds, in the same space where I sleep and and live and so on, so, a Bully-Bird is really horrible when I get them, for me and everyone else...now THAT is 'cruel'...and some hobble-tied Legs for a few days, are nothing compared to that...

Lol...and true!

Phil
lasvegas


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Sorry, Renee, I think that's just plain cruel.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

ZigZagMarquis said:


> Sorry, Renee, I think that's just plain cruel.



Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion...........but when ONE bird in a loft of 30 will not let pairs sit in their own nest bowl and be happy........when ONE bird, if left to run the loft, will eventually cause broken eggs and/or trampled babies.........then tying his legs together for 3 days is not going to hurt anything and it CERTAINLY "fixed" the problem. Would it be better if I took him out of the loft all together and put him in isolation all alone? Is that not cruel? What would YOU do? Just let him run rampant, beat up birds, both cocks and hens? Let him break eggs with babies in them? Give him to someone else and just not tell them what a bully he is and let them worry about it? Maybe they would just ring his neck and throw him in the trash. That would fix it wouldn't it? 
Anyone who knows me will tell you that I would NEVER do anything to harm any of my birds. 
When one bird is constantly fighting and he FINALLY gets a dose of his own medicine, he calms down pretty quickly. 
Sorry you don't agree with this method. If you come up with a better solution, be sure to let us in on it...........


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## learning (May 19, 2006)

*Sorry, I don't get it*

ZigZagMarquis,

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. How can a method which does not harm the bird in any way but keeps it from harming an entire team of race birds possibly be considered cruel? Any domesticated animal, weather it is a dog, cat, horse or racing pigeon needs to be trained for its own health and well being and those that interact with it. We have all seen the unrully obnoxious dogs that insist on jumping up on you, barking all the time, etc., etc. I don't get upset at the dog, I get upset with the owner that hasn't taken the time to teach the dog proper behavior.

Of course, you and everyone else are entitled to your oppinions, but I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than a win-win. Lovebirds gets a positive member of their teem back and the bird gets to remain alive...after all, we all know that there are a lot of people out there that wouldn't take the time to try to rehabilitate and train the bird, they would just cull it and be done with it. I am certainly not condoning that here, but it is a reality that is out there.

Just me 2 cents.

Dan


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Renee,

I'm glad the bully is now getting along with his loft mates. He will be happier also, as everyone will like him.

Thanks for sharing.


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## ZigZagMarquis (Aug 31, 2004)

Dan, Renee, Yes, I am entitled to my opinion.

Having formed another opinion from my time here on Pigeon-Talk... that how one deals with their own birds, strays, sick and injured birds is best kept to themselves.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

My biggest concern in doing this is that the pigeon could get hung up on something and cause it to hang itself or hurt itself trying to get detached. I remember one of Nab's G's sticking his head through two openings in his cage wire and nearly dying from struggling to get loose. Luckily, Nab got home in time to save him.

Renee, is there any danger like that involved?


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, Renee,
Time for my say. Why is what you're doing to make all your birds safe and happy any worse than what someone would have to do to treat splay leg in a squab? We don't get upset about that treatment, and what Renee is doing is no worse to me.
Daryl


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey Daryl, I'm not saying what Renee is doing is cruel or wrong - Renee happens to be one of absolutely favorite people and when she gives advice I usually listen.  For myself I just want to know about what I asked.

As far as treating splayed legs versus the rubber band - with splayed legs the pigeon is in a controlled environment, usually inside a house, or at least they are for us.

So, please, let's not start "taking sides" in a situation. Do we want this forum to be one of open communication or, if a respected member makes a post are we not to ask a question when we don't understand what is being done?

I sincerely hope Renee will not take offense at what I wrote because it was certainly not intended as criticism in any way, shape or form.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hi Maggie, I also worried about my Bully Hey Zues getting hung up on something, but since the rubber band is twisted so, it is not a likely scenario. There is just not enough length to get tied up on stuff. Being that it is a rubber band, the give is enough to keep this from happening. While Renee only kept her bully hobbled for 3 days, my Zues was in it for a much longer sentence! I first used a necklace chain that I broke to fit to size. He got that off quick. The rubber band was the way to go. He never encountered any situation he could not handle except the "fight" My Zues fell on his face the first time he went after another pigeon and that almost cured him!!! The thing is, without having the capacity to stand wide and wing slap and peck, the dominance is curbed! Hey Zues has been out of his shackles for some time now and is a very respectful boy. I don't think he had ever been bossed around and his ego was HUGE! Now he respects all the other pigs and our loft is peaceful. As for this method being mean, well, as stated before, mean is to just let this kind of behavior continue!! Hey Zues got his butt kicked about 3 times and his whole attitude changed. That is worth it!! This method is 100% effective!! and I would do it again in a heartbeat! Nice Post Renee!!!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks Cricket for the explanation. I had also thought, looking at Renee's picture, that with the snap on bands, maybe if a bird did get hung up there would be enough stress on the bands to pop one or both off and allow the bird to free itself. 

I am a worry wart anyhow. I even worry about them getting hung up by their leg bands!


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Let's get one thing straight from the beginning.......no offense has been taken by me by anything anyone has said. We all have our opinions. Period. Maggie, as far as the bird getting caught on anything, as Cricket stated, that's not likely to happen and just to be clear, this a bird that is NOT out flying. I would NEVER do this to a bird that was getting flight time every day. These birds are on lock down right now. 
A couple of years ago, I did have a cock bird get his leg caught in a swinging door (and they no longer swing by the way). He most likely was like that from about 4:00 PM until the next morning when I went to the loft around 7:00 or so the next morning. His leg was messed up pretty bad and he was dog tired from flapping all night and unable to get loose. No one will EVER know how bad I felt. I broke down and cried so hard, I could hardly get him loose. NOW..........I do a check on my birds every night with a flashlight AFTER dark to make sure they are all where they are suppose to be. Once roosting for the night, it's not very likely that they will be moving around much. IF there was a possibility of this bird getting caught up on anything, I would know about it pretty darn quick, although I don't see it as being very likely. So, I'm good............even with you Zig............


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

pigeonmama said:


> Well, Renee,
> Time for my say. Why is what you're doing to make all your birds safe and happy any worse than what someone would have to do to treat splay leg in a squab? We don't get upset about that treatment, and what Renee is doing is no worse to me.
> Daryl


I understand what you are saying Daryl, and this is what my answer and some others would be..........I think the main difference is that on a baby, at 7 to 10 days old, they aren't up walking around so you aren't REALLY restricting them. All they would do is sit in a bowl all day anyway, so there REALLY is no harm there. Where as what I did, I did to a 2005, grown bird and that's where the "cruelty" came in. Not going to "plead" my case again, been there, done that,.........just wanted to point out what the "difference" is as some people might see it.........I don't see it as cruelty in either instance but that's MY opinion.......


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*My 2 cents*

Hi Renee and all, I just read this thread tonight. I was doing some catch up on what I have missed the past couple of days due to my schedule, and the thread titled "Bully Birds" caught my attention. I too unfortunately have a bully...if I may change that to BULLY pigeon, and am almost ashamed to admit it my famous Tooter. 

I have tried for months and months finding ways to "make him" get along with my other pigeons, with no success. I found her solution quite interesting and have not ruled out at least trying her method. 

I do not have a loft full of racing pigeons. I only have a mere 6 pet pigeons, most of them unreleasable.I have a modest pigeon coop and mine are allowed to hang out and fly during the day hours. In the pre-evening, they are usually all in their own cages that I have lined up on a shelf inside. They are pretty smart to understand which is their eating and sleeping quarters. They are secured in their cages and the heat is turned on at night. 

Tooter, has to have his own private flight time away from the others. I have thought of separating a quarter section for his own use, but with us planning on adding an attached aviary this year, I don't want to change or modify anything in the coop, especially during our cold Winter. I have thought of temporarily curtaining off part of it with an old large blanket, which I probably may still do, but nonetheless, I found her advice quite do-able. I don't have any snap rings now, so I will opt for my original idea.

One of the things I have learned to love and respect at Pigeon Talk is the way all the members present and share ideas on how they run their coops/lofts. We all have different styles and techniques that work for our situations.

It disappoints me when members choose to not agree and rather than present a solution, just add to the problem. 

Ar first I thought Renee's technique was harsh, but her end result (and Crickets) proved to be a victory.

I may not ever try the method on Tooter, and may just add a private section for him...but then, would that really be fair to him? Food for thought.


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Victor, I wanted to add that I too have a modest lost. My loft consists of 6 pigeons. My very first Pigeon was Hey Zues. Then I added Hey Jude, who respected Zues's space. When a female came along, Halo, Zues claimed her and Jude complied. Then I brought in the three from Lovebirds. That is when the Bully Terror started! My small loft was now a space ruled by one white pigeon who owned every perch, every food dish, every waterer, every box, every square inch! He was relentless. I thought at first he would tire of this rampage... eventually he would need to rest, right? Well the only time there was any peace was when Hey Zues sat on his eggs. He would watch everyone go back to a normal pigeon routine, with a glare in his eyes. As soon as his shift ended, he would be back on Terror duty! It was so hard to witness. I felt horrible for every other pigeon! minus Halo, who benefited from his dominance. When this idea was first introduced to me, I felt the same way. It sounded extreme. It was not until I saw Zues latch onto Bonnie's cere and rip her off her nest that I finally did not care if it seemed harsh. He certainly had to be stopped. He was dangerous to all the other pigeons. I tried this method and stayed in the loft for the first hour to watch how this might affect the dynamics and to make sure it was not cruel to Zues. I was relieved to witness his ability to continue existing like normal, minus the ability to Wing Slap and Peck. He fell on his face at first, but once he understood his limitations, he functioned 100% fine. It was only when he would go for another pigeon that he quickly learned he was compromised. The change in this bird happened fast. I really believed he was cured while he wore his shackles and I was pretty sure he would go back to his old methods as soon as his shackles were removed. So I left him in them for longer than I originally planned. I took them off reluctantly... with the thoughts of re-doing this method if he started up any of his old antics. But he didn't. Still hasn't. Things are wonderful with my pigeons now... Your Food For Thought statement is a good one... Tooter deserves to feel peace in the loft too! I wish you the very best in whatever method you choose. Please do share with us how you finally fix this current problem.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Cricket said:


> Things are wonderful with my pigeons now... Your Food For Thought statement is a good one... Tooter deserves to feel peace in the loft too! I wish you the very best in whatever method you choose. Please do share with us how you finally fix this current problem.


I will. I promise. But IF I forget, PLEASE remind me!.


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## Garye (Feb 20, 2005)

> Tied loosely enough that he could still walk, but tight enough that he couldn't throw that foot back and get in a good wing slap. He got his little feathery butt kicked about twice and HE got thrown out of the box he was trying to take. In less than 24 hours, he was a changed bird.


I know this is cruel to say, but the way this was written, I laughed. You have a way with words and I know you were seriously angry at the bird's behavior, but it did make me laugh the way you wrote of your treatment for his problem.  

As for Tooter, I hope he won't be put to this treatment. I know he sounds cruel but maybe he feels as if he was the first one and has a right to certain priviledges. I don't know, but I have a feeling that when he came back and saw all these new folks, he became jealous and felt somehow "replaced." I don't know. Maybe he should just be let to have his own way now that he's back and he was the first one. As long as he's not hurting the others.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Garye said:


> As for Tooter, I don't know, but I have a feeling that when he came back and saw all these new folks, he became jealous and felt somehow "replaced." I don't know. Maybe he should just be let to have his own way now that he's back and he was the first one. As long as he's not hurting the others.


Garye, You almost exactly quoted what Bev said the night I brought my pigeons indoors.That is what she believes as well. Something to think about?


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

Garye said:


> I know this is cruel to say, but the way this was written, I laughed. You have a way with words and I know you were seriously angry at the bird's behavior, but it did make me laugh the way you wrote of your treatment for his problem.
> 
> As for Tooter, I hope he won't be put to this treatment. I know he sounds cruel but maybe he feels as if he was the first one and has a right to certain priviledges. I don't know, but I have a feeling that when he came back and saw all these new folks, he became jealous and felt somehow "replaced." I don't know. Maybe he should just be let to have his own way now that he's back and he was the first one. As long as he's not hurting the others.


Well, I'm glad I made SOMEBODY laugh..... and you are right, I was very angry watching the cocks chase the hen because they wanted them to go to the nest box......as soon as they would go there, here would come Mr. Bully, throwing them out and then he would fight with the cock and he would win EVERY time......the birds would just leave the box, go to the floor while Mr. Bully swirled and twirled cooing like "Uh....don't mess with me!!"......then it would start all over again. Hard to believe that now about a week or so later, 11 out of 15 pairs of birds are all sitting on eggs and are happy as can be.


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

*Bullies need space!*

*I was reading this old thread from January, and have come to realize that once the "boys" were in a larger environment, it helped ease the tension a lot. They spend the day in the flight pen and except from the occasional normal peck here and there or the wing slaps, they are getting along pretty well...even King Tooter is usually good. 

In the evening, they are collected in their small pet cab (carrier) and placed in the coop in their individual cages for the night. It is funny to watch them compete to race into the small "transporter".

In the early morning, Barbie and Emilie get their flight time before the boys and then they are in the coop the rest of the day free flying while they are in the pen. It works for us having the extra space. 

This year our goal was to add an aviary. Next year, after Winter, we plan on attaching the pen and the coop, and enlarge the coop.*


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## jack1747 (Sep 16, 2007)

It was the last straw. I just couldn’t take anymore.

One cock bird that I got has been fighting with everyone since we got our first ever birds a couple of months ago. He just wouldn't let the other birds alone. It got worst when he had babies. Then yesterday I introduced new birds to the loft. Boss bird was worst than ever and terrorized them all. This morning one of the new cock birds, one I paid money for, one I really liked, was totally soaked from taking his first bath in who knows how long. Boss bird was beating him unmercifully. The wet bird could not get away and was cornered taking a real beating.

I was about to turn Boss Bird loose. I just couldn’t take anymore when I remembered this post about the rubber band cuffs. When I put them on Boss bird it was amazing. He just stopped all the fighting. All the other birds changed also. They are more relaxed and seem to be enjoying life. Walking around the loft floor. First time I have ever seen that. Bathing without having to run from Boss Bird. No more just hanging around in their pigeon holes and feeding by grabbing a seed on the run. This post changed allot of things for my 15 birds.

And Boss Bird, well he seems a little laid back too right now. In his spot with Lady Boss Bird. Doing the Lovey Dovey stuff.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Renee, 


Excellent..!

And a good reminder for us on how to deal with the issue when it is a problem..!


Best wishes...

Phil
l v


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## Cricket (Sep 1, 2005)

That is great news!! that is how my loft changed too... and by the way, Zues is still behaving with proper social etiquette! We have never returned to the old bully days! Hooray!! Make sure you keep a close eye on Mr. Bossy and his tethers. Who knew????


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