# Avian Pox Questions



## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I helped a pigeon yesterday that I suspected of having the pox, I put it in a box and placed it in the laundry room which is seperate from my apartment. I didn't want it anywhere near my birds. I changed my clothing and left the clothing in the bathroom to wear to animal control (where I took the bird this morning). I will probably use a Lysol product on the carpet and vacuum, shower, and wash all affected clothing before handling my birds. My birds have not been vaccinated for Pox. How worried should I be about transmission?

Here's another question, the vaccine for Pox is a modified live virus if I where to vaccinate my birds how likely are they to develop the disease from the vaccine? Has this happened? How effective is the vaccine?

If any of my birds where to contract Pox what is the treatment?

How long does it take for the virus to develop in infected birds?


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## turkey (May 19, 2002)

I don't have much experience on Pox. 

I've taken in two pigeons with it. The second is a current rescue. I washed my hands. I don't put other pigeons in the same cage. I use diluted iodine on their pox spots to help dry it up. Mosquitoes will transmit pox, so pigeons with pox stay inside. It can also be transmitted to other pigeons through the pox scabs that dry up and fall off. 

I have not given any of my pigeons the pox vaccine. I got the first pox pigeon in Oct. 2003. He has been in my aviary ever since the pox was gone from him. 

I have a photo album titled "Pox" with his pox pictures in it and what he looks like now. He's a different bird.








http://community.webshots.com/user/jujubear29 

Julie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello,

You say you helped this pigeon? Did animal control say what they were going to do with this bird? This is a disease that a bird can easily overcome with love, attention, nutrition and rest. They just need to be isolated. They have a permanent immunity to it once they have had the disease, and they are as good as new! 

If your pigeons have contracted it, and I am assuming you have pigeons, you will know in 4 to 14 days. Unless your birds are around mosquitos, I doubt they caught it from this poor bird, as pox is transmitted thru saliva droplets from the nose and mouth, and the scabs from pigeons with pox. 

All my babies get vaccinated for Pox, it is a brush on vaccine. They only get a sample of the pox around where the immunization is given, on their leg. You can use Tea tree oil to dry up the lesions, except around the eyes. Birds need to stay indoors for 6 weeks after immunization. I have seen all immunizations take well, with very minimum side effects. 

My rehabber has treated many pigeons for Pox and they are just as good as new, and they never get pox again. Why don't you find yourself a good "pigeon friendly" rehabber who will treat any birds that come your way in the future. I have become very knowledgable about different diseases and injuries because of what I learned from her and all the moderators here.

Treesa


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

Thank you for the help Julie.

Treesa:
The bird was dying so I took it to Animal Control to be put down and I don't regret it. Yes, I did help the pigeon. As you may recall I was the one to initially bring attention to Wildcare in San Rafael CA (I live in San Francisco CA) taking in pigeons so please keep your condescension to yourself. If I cared to hear you opinion on the subject I would have asked. For future reference Pox is also transmitted via feather dust.


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Even homing pigeon racers, who often get rid of birds for reasons such as poor performance, and who tend get rid of birds that are weak enough to get sick, will routinely let Pox run it's course in quarantine, since typically these lesions will dry and fall out - they just leave it alone. 

"The bird was dying" - not of Pox it wasn't. You didn't mention there was any other health issues with this bird, Jennifer. How did you make a life and death - let's say it plainly, how did make a death decision on this bird with such certainty?

Just so know, opinions may be given without your permission.


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

JGregg,
You have been a member of this forum for almost a year. What possessed you to "help" the poor bird by having it destroyed? You "suspected?" Why didn't you come here first?
You have to know by now that these people
would have given you sound advice.

Being a member for 3 months, maybe I should keep my opinions to myself. Nahh!
In my opinion, you were not very nice to
Treesa ~ she truly cares.
Keeping silent would have been the wrong thing to do.
Unless a creature (of any kind) is in pain that cannot be relieved, do not have it destroyed.

Please get the facts first. 

phyll


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

"If I cared to hear you opinion on the subject I would have asked."

Pigeons.com is a forum JGregg, therefore any member certinly has a right to voice their opinion, whether it be, a particular concern, advice, support, etc., as long as it is given 'respectably'.

Treesa is one, of many, who offers very sound advice. Her advice, opinions & support are worthy of being acknowledged. She said absolutely nothing in her post that would warrant a defensive reply.

"The bird was dying so I took it to Animal Control to be put down and I don't regret it."

With all due respect, you failed to mention in your original post the bird was dying, only that you noticed the 'pox'. 
What other problems did this bird have?
I believe the point that was being made was:
"If you had posted here, prior to making what appeared to be a snap judgment call to have the bird euthanized, together we could have discussed the situation & hopefully saved the pigeons life."

I'm sorry, & admittedly angered, that the pigeon was euthanized without begin given a chance.
Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

JGregg,

I'm happy to see that I really don't have to respond to your remarks as everyone has done that, incredibly well, for me.

However, may I say how unproffessional of you to attack me,you don't even know me!
My first and only concern was for this poor pigeon.

I also gave you first hand information on the Pox vaccine, that you asked about. Did you not see that? How rude of you, to thank Julie, but not me?

Now, I'm going to thank all the members who responded on my behalf, the people here, who do know me.


Treesa


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## Marian (Feb 17, 2001)

Hi Jennifer,
Some pox info.

There are three forms of pox. The one we mainly see is the dry or cutaneous form, with the wart-like lesions on face and legs. The lesions can also be on the feathered portion of the bird.

The other forms of pox, wet or diptheritic, and septicemic, usually result in severe illness and rapid death. Birds with this form of pox become very ill, feel terrible, stop eating, etc. The dry pox doesn't appear to cause this same kind of distress. Birds with dry pox are still active and still eating/drinking unless the lesions make that impossible for the bird.

Dry pox is a self-limiting disease. Given time and supportive care, a bird can recover from this if it is in otherwise good health.
The supportive care is to give the bird the help it needs while its immune system mounts a response to the virus.

Supportive care may include tube feeding if the bird is unable to eat on its own. Vitamin supplements. Also antibiotics for accompanying bacterial (Clavamox or Baytril) or the fungal infection Candida (Nystatin, itraconazole) infections, and treatment for external/internal parasites (ivermectin, droncit, Frontline). 

Mouth lesions are commonly infected with Trichomonas and a course of metronidazole (Flagyl) or carnidazole (Spartrix) should be done.

Supplemental vitamin A (1l,000-25,000 IU/300 grams body weight IM can be given, and vitamin C. These in particular may enhance the healing of damaged epithelial surfaces, particularly if given early in the illness.
A balanced daily dose of the other vitamins is helpful in building the bird's own immune response. 

Lesions on face and legs should be kept clean. Some use warm water with a weak Betadine solution (color of weak tea). Non-irritating soap (baby soap) diluted with saline are also used. Creams such as aloe or with vitamin E added, or Blistex have also been used.

The incubation period for pox virus infection varies from several days to over a month, depending on the particular strain of pox, the route of exposure, the species age and condition of the individual bird . Two weeks is usual for pox lesions to appear, but this is not at all a firm rule.

Like many viruses, avian pox is species-specific. There are many different types of poxviruses which are classified according to the particular species of birds that are susceptible---fowl pox, canary pox, pigeon pox, raptors, quail, etc. 

Some of the avian poxes have a wide range of birds that they are capable of infecting. Others have a limited host range.

Fowl pox virus can cause a severe illness in poultry birds, and only mild illness in another species, or no illness despite exposure.

Mosquitos and biting flies are the most common form of transmission--direct introduction of the virus into the bloodstream. Once in the bloodstream, pox virus spreads to liver and bone marrow, produces more viral particles in the bloodstream and then the lesions develop.

The virus is intermittently shed via feces or the skin and feather quills. Direct transmission between birds can occur with the ingestion of lesion scabs, feces, and inhalation of aerosolized particles. 

The virus shed from an infected bird can contaminate soil, water/food containers, cages, perches, gloves, etc. It is a hardy virus and can survive in the environment, apart from a host bird, for a year or more.

Pox virus stimulates the production of antibodies that protect the bird from reinfection by the same strain of virus for 6-12 months. 

Some literature sayd that recovered birds are not carriers. Other literature suggests that some birds that recover from pox may develop persistent infections and intermittently shed the virus via feces, skin and feathers. 

Recurrence of pox virus has been induced in birds that are undergoing physical or medical stressors. It is thought that this might be a recurrence of latent pox, but there is also the other theory that the bird in weakened condition is more susceptible to re-infection from a new virus. 

Only healthy birds should be vaccinated. If the modified live vaccune is given to a bird that is already infected but has not yet shown symptoms, the virus can mutate to a more virulent form as the field (wild) strain and the vaccine strain combine. It could devastate a flock. 

Aside from the literature, I've taken care of over l00 pigeons and doves with pox, without any spreading of the disease to my other birds. They were in the same house but all utensils etc were of course separate, and I bleached everything including my hands during care.


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## Marian (Feb 17, 2001)

typo---
That is 10,000-25,000IU of vitamin A


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Marian,


I gave advice regarding the "Pox Vaccine" only and not the full outbreak. I do give pox vaccines to my youngsters as I live in Florida.

Sounds like you wrote the book on pox and that you are the expert on the pox disease, itself. From what you have written, I am extremely glad I have used the preventive measure in the vaccine. My birds only got one pox where the vaccine was brushed on. Their immune systems were only mildly compromised. We also use mosquito netting in our coops, for further protection. 

Thanks for sharing, I will take the information and copy it for future use.

Treesa

[This message has been edited by Trees Gray (edited June 06, 2004).]


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Treesa,

Though Marian's post was addressed to Jennifer, I'm sure it was meant for the benefit of us all. 

Terry


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## Eileen (Aug 17, 2002)

Hi there. I am assuming you are all talking about pet pigeons here, & not sick feral pigeons.

I work in a wildlife hospital & deal with hundreds (700+ last year alone) of sick and injured birds (Avian pox, West Nile Virus, Exotic Newcastle Disease, PMV... just off the top of my head) . We try to save whatever we can that can be responsibly released , & there is always a lot of controversy when a pox bird comes in. Some people feel they want to save every animal that comes across their path. If that animal will have a home (legally) when it is better, & captivity will not cause it undue stress for the remainder of its life, then that's fine.

The thing with pox, as one of the prior posts states, is that a bird can succumb to it because: 
1) it ended up in a debilitated state, was exposed & caught the virus. With supportive care, often times they can recover & be released.
or:
2) it is a carrier.
It's a tough call to figure out which...

The responsible thing to remember is that you cannot save every life. By saving birds with transmissible illnesses and releasing them back into the wild, you are putting all the other healthy birds in jeopardy. In order to keep the large majority of feral birds in a community healthy, it's something to think of before trying to save all the sick ones. 

It's not easy to deal with, believe me, but euthanasia does not always have to be a curse word - sometimes it is a blessing. 


[This message has been edited by Eileen (edited June 07, 2004).]


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I, for one, don't like your style Eileen, and I don't frankly give a damn how many birds you've "dealt" with.


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

You're right, what was I thinking when I decided that the pigeon deserved a humane death? With 20 years of avian experience, how could I possibly make the call that the poor little thing was dying? I should have driven by and let the bird suffocate in its own mucus. This way the bird could have died a natural death.

I should have gone here first....Nobody here jumps to conclusions without knowing all of the facts.


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## Eileen (Aug 17, 2002)

I've been around this forum for a while, dano. You might not like my opinion, but you also don't know how many people I have helped save birds here too.

If you don't agree with me that's fine, but there is no call - in any forum - for swearing and attitudes. I guess everybody is *not* entitled to their opinions, as you stated in your previous post. 

I know enough people here to trust that is not the behavior wished reflected here and hope that it ends now with this thread. 



[This message has been edited by Eileen (edited June 07, 2004).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

How wonderful is it that this site is blessed with such knowledge, provided by all our members? 

How equally sad is it that sarcastic, & inappropriate remarks need to be made because opinions differ.

Cindy


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

"there is no call - in any forum - for swearing and attitudes."

I agree 100% Eileen. 

"I know enough people here to trust that is not the behavior wished reflected here and hope that it ends now with this thread."

Agreed again.
Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Eileen,

Thank you for taking the time to explain the facts from your side of it. 

I deal with healthy home cared pigeons, that I am able to give the pox vaccine too for prevention. They only get the mild form of the disease and get over it quickly. They live in a loft with mosquito netting on all open areas. They are not exposed to all the elements, and have a stress free life.

I'm sure it is different seeing this disease full blown in birds, and much harder to deal with.


Treesa


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

I am absolutely stunned by the attack on Eileen made on this public forum for two reasons....1) attacks on any forum where different opinions and experiences are valuable are totally unproductive, inappropriate, and cruel; and 2) Eileen is one of the most compassionate, experienced, and intelligent people I know--I value her opinion(s) quite highly especially since she works in an environment that is quite different from that of most individual rescuers here on the East Coast. 

Essentially, all of the public brings their rescues to the wildlife center where Eileen works, so she sees numbers that I just don't see since I work for a small animal clinic that only deals with wildlife on "the side."

Such comments make people (including myself) not want to post on this forum ever again since we can never be sure if someone will blast us because our opinion and experiences are different from their's. Everyone's opinion is legitimate. 

We deal with the harsh reality that there are no resources to care for a lot of the sick birds/animals that come across our paths. I feel lucky as a vet to have the ability to legally and humanely euthanize animals that have poor prognoses. 

Because of our lack of resources, our goal is always to treat and release the most promising patients. Putting an animal down is always a sad scene, but we do it the kindest and most gentle way we know. We hold them, we speak softly to them, we sedate them prior to euthanizing them. It is all very peaceful. It is certainly better than freezing or starving to death on the street. I euthanized the sweetest little baby field mouse yesterday who was slowly circling and almost dead. I was very grateful to the young person who was kind enough to bring him in and not let him die a slow death on the sidewalk. 

You are all very lucky to not have to deal with the reality of euthansia on a daily basis. Just let me assure you, it is not something we take lightly or cavalierly...ever. Luckily I do not need a forum like this to ask for Eileen's opinion should she decide not to post in the future (and I wouldn't blame her). I am fortunate to be able to just call her on the phone. 

-Laura


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Eileen, I didn’t question that you saved birds or that you do not have skill, since I copied your work on the tar issue just yesterday. My point is that you said you did the world a favor by killing the carriers of pox; does this mean you kill all the birds with Paratyphoid since often an adult bird that has overcome the disease remains a carrier and continues to produce infected droppings? Do you kill all the birds with canker, since most every pigeon has some trichomonads in it’s body even after treatment. In health, every time the parent bird feeds its youngsters, it passes on some of its own trichomonads to them. So they are all carriers. And what about PMV birds—are they assumed to be in that class of birds to put down? I agree there is a time for mercy killing, but I question your criteria.

Jennifer, your original post spoke about a bird with pox and you went on about a number of details, so if you chose to bring this to the forum, why did you fail to mention the important symptoms. That led us to question your judgment. Now that the story changes, it appears to be a self serving fabrication. Maybe it’s not and maybe it is.


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## EarthaPidge (Feb 5, 2004)

"My point is that you said you did the world a favor by killing the carriers of pox;"

Eileen did not say this. What she did say is this:

"We try to save whatever we can that can be responsibly released , & there is always a lot of controversy when a pox bird comes in."

Obviously there are lots of conditions in birds that are inherent to a lot of feral populations and I am pretty sure the wildlife center does not euthanize a bird because it has trich, etc. I believe Eileen is talking here about birds that have very severe cases of pox that are not good candidates for rehabilitation. Eileen doesn't indiscriminantly euthanize birds at her job. There are a lot of considerations and opinions that are pooled before a decision is made. All decisions are made in the best interest of the animal and the environment.

About 99% of NY could care less about pigeons and Eileen and I happen to care about them enough to rehab them on our own, outside of our regular workplaces. 

As far as I'm concerned, one of the kindest acts is taking the time and the effort to pick up a suffering animal off the street, whether to be humanely euthanized (if it cannot be rehabbed) or rehabilitated. And the original poster did just that. I can't tell you how many times I have seen scores of people walking past a suffering pigeon on the sidewalk or in a stairwell just pointing and trying to get as far away from the creature as possible. They are usually equally disgusted when I reach down and scoop the bird up.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Laura,

It is very sad to see the plight of our feral flock, it upsets me greatly.

I'm sure you see a lot of suffering pigeons and those left dying.

Your work is wonderful as well as the work Eileen does. I have great respect for anyone who picks up a dying bird, or pigeon, and gives it comfort in its last moments on earth, that is equally important. I have done this myself, and it is a very emotional experience. I have wrapped them gently in warm cloth and spoken to them sweetly and watch their eyes close.

Because of my feelings towards pigeons, I'm easily provoked by the ignorance of people,for example, there are people who indisciminately will take pigeons to animal control because they have lice and are dirty, without knowing any facts on pigeons. I would have agreed with the original poster, if she had given me all the facts, as my first priority was only for the pigeons welfare.

Treesa

[This message has been edited by Trees Gray (edited June 08, 2004).]


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I sincerely hope that nobody stops posting here because of a little spat, but would like to remind everyone that we all love pigeons and want to do what is best for them: sarcasm and insults are inappropriate ways of communicating and do nothing to heal a situation! If there are things that we need to say we should endeavour to say them as gently as possible...although I accept that even the gentlest worded reprimand can cause hostility!

Having said that my own view is that before a pigeon that is neither fatally ill or fatally wounded is euthanased all other options should be explored, and that is what this forum is here for even though that exercise can in itself can be painful for members...there could be someone in this group that could offer an alternative to death. 

My reason for saying this is that I was recently handed a mangled wood pigeon that had to have a wing amputated. I knew from a rehabber friend that wood pigeons suffer a too much stress to live satisfactory lives in captivity and the vet also warned me of this (having been briefed by the same friend!) and recommended euthanasia. I accepted his advice without asking for the opinion of my fellow pigeon lovers and have bitterly regretted that because I have since found that there are members who have been able to provide handicapped wood pigeons a happy home and one would have done the same for this one. I am convinced now that my decision that the wood pigeon could not live happily in captivity was premature and very probably wrong. All animals should be given the chance to live if that is at all possible.

Cynthia

------------------
_All beings are fond of themselves, they like pleasure, they hate pain, they shun destruction, they like life and want to live long. To all, life is dear; hence their life should be protected.

-Mahavira_


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## phyll (Mar 15, 2004)

JGregg,

My post was written because I was not aware of your extensive avian experience.
If the poor little pigeon was dying & could not be saved, I apologize.
Only you know the truth. Not for anything, but you did neglect to fully explain his/her condition.

phyll


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## JGregg (Jul 28, 2003)

I apologize for my sarcasm. You may note that on the third correspondence I gave the full symtoms of the bird, this is hardly witholding information. What was the point of talking about the euthanized pigeon anyways? Beating a dead horse comes to mind. The euthanized bird is dead, I wanted to focus on the possible impact on my healthy pets. 

I've said nothing when I pick birds up to be rehabilitated (I don't need my actions judged), but if one needs to be put down I'm suddenly the great killer of pigeons! Everybody here could do very well to think before jumping to conclusions (myself included). Obviously I have been on the site for almost a year, so I must care about pigeons right? It would then follow that I wouldn't be taking all of the pigeons I've found to be put down. The pigeon must have been put down for a reason, not just because it "looked sick".

Here is a good way to deal with someone that had a sick bird put down without castigating them. Praise them for actually caring enough to pick the bird up, then ask (without getting emotional) what was wrong with the bird. Establish which conditions are nessisary for the bird to be put down, so the next time they pick up a bird they will have the ability to make an informed choice. If you jump all over people they are then less likely to pick up any more birds in the future. If the birds are not picked up they will suffer more, this is clearly not desirable.

Dano, I didn't go into detail about the bird's condition for the first two times I posted on this subject. I just said the bird may have had pox and was dying, what more do you need to know? I went into more detail because I was badgered, where I changed the story is beyond me. Do you feel better about yourself now that you've put me down? If this is what you need for self affirmation so be it, just leave me out (and Eileen too).

Note: My youngest pigeon is rescued from unnessiary euthanasia. 



[This message has been edited by JGregg (edited June 08, 2004).]


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

JGregg,
Although you apologized for your sarcasm, you continue to embellish your posts with unnecessary & inappropriate statements, which will only escalate an already negative situation.

Before this issue gets any further out of line, I'm going to close this thread.
Cindy

Please note: 
You have brought out some good points in your post. 
Unfortunately when one continues to 'agitate' another, it needs to be stopped.




[This message has been edited by AZWhitefeather (edited June 09, 2004).]


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