# SF Diesel Doll



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*SF Diesel Doll Update*

Diesel Doll Update

pearlkitty and I hooked up this morning in San Francisco for me to pick up the rescued pigeon posted about in this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=18609

pearlkitty had the rescue in a box that was ’ready to go’; air holes were, and newspaper placed inside. I peaked thru the holes, it almost seemed like little strands of ’helter-skelter’ down yellow poking through/ were visible, the bird was at times appearing to breath through slightly opened beaks. The box was closed and I left it this way until I got home and could examine without concerns of the bird trying to jump the box.

I was truly horrified when I opened the box, the fumes of gasoline and oil just about bowled me over, and I felt fortunate that the bird hadn’t been over come by the fumes alone. This was a bit of a dilemma for me in that I felt the bird should have a little more time w/stabilization, however, it seemed the circumstances required direct and immediate intervention for the fumes and toxic effect of having the body so saturated. The few poops in the bottom of the cage appeared pretty d*amned good to me for a bird in this predicament and this helped me to decide to move forward as quickly as possible w/cleaning. Crop syringed some IRS and a very watery Kaytee and allowed her to ‘settle’ while making arrangements for bathing. Skipped the minor contingencies and gave Baytril liquid 10%. When the room was warm enough, and her new hospital cage was ready, the process began. 

One of the feet had its toes rolled under and limp, couldn’t find any wounds per se, although perhaps I will in time. It was very difficult to get to the skin area until two and a half hours into the process, the feathers were so saturated with a gasoline and oil mixture. I didn’t dilute the Dawn, as it wouldn’t have ‘cut’ what was there, and I’m unconcerned about a ‘release’ date, s/he may stay as long as needed. I Q-tipped the head area to remove what I could and also get the residues away from the eyes. I moved systematically over the areas of the body and repeatedly washed and rinsed the bird until significant improvement was visible.

At first, the bird started to ‘scramble’ w/it’s feet, so I put one hand underneath its’ feet, and the pij was pacified w/this. In fact, s/he seemed to seek out my hand for security. When all was done, I had an unexpected visitor under my chin. 

One eye looked pretty bad after bathing, so I applied Terrymicin to it, I believe it to be just irritated, just the 
same, a few applications seem to have helped. S/he has had another augmented feeding, and after a few hours rest from the detox bathing, is at least making a few grunts and wing slapping w/either wing….a good sign. This bird was so silent it was frightening. We shall see what tomorrow brings, but I’m thinking that this bird has a good chance. I will do more bathing sessions in the next day or so as the bird becomes stronger, the smell is still there, but the strong and major fumes are gone. I realize that there may still
be 'off-gassing', but it is minimal and I need to 'weigh' what the bird has been through. It appears to me to be a pre-first molt jouvenile in a fairly emaciated condition.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Good heavens, fp, makes one wonder WHAT HAPPENED to this poor bird!

He/she sure sounds in good hands and I'm so glad to hear that you made some headway in getting the yuck off!

Will send loads of healing thoughts and hugs to you both! 

Don't think the poor pij could be in better hands! Look forward to updates!

THANKS to Pearlykitty and you for this rescue!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

fp~ You sure had your hands full with this rescue. I know Diesel Doll is in VERY capable hands. Afterall, you patched up our Beaksley well, after the the sea Captain brought him to you for help. Thank you for caring for this pigeon in need. It is a good thing Pearlykitty found this site .


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## pearlykitty (Dec 23, 2006)

I'm very grateful that I found this site, and am very glad that Diesal Doll is getting much needed care in good hands! Best of luck to the both of you and thankyouthankyouthankyou !


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

That poor pijjie. It makes me wonder if someone did this to the pijjie. He/she is in great hands, and thank god Pearlykitty found this little one. I'll keep this little one in my prayers.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


Wow...

Good going!

Makes me woosy just thinking about those fumes...yeeeeeesh, poor little one, poor you!

Glad the worst of it is over now.


Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

I could hardly wait to find out about this poor bird. Diesel Doll will have the merriest of Christmas' now thanks to you FP. Way to go..........Can't wait to see a picture of how beautiful she really is. Good luck..........


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

I'm so sorry to hear this youngster is in such a state, I can imagine your quick thinking and action taken once you assessed the bird, and I'm sure your sense of smell had alot to do with it..

I'm SO glad to hear "Diesel Doll"....DD...is in your very capable hands and that he/she is on the road to a recovery.

A BIG thanks to all involved for making this possible.

Can't wait for another update.


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## Lovebirds (Sep 6, 2002)

littlestar said:


> That poor pijjie. It makes me wonder if someone did this to the pijjie. He/she is in great hands, and thank god Pearlykitty found this little one. I'll keep this little one in my prayers.



I too wonder how this happened. You almost have to think that someone did this on purpose. I do think that sometimes they go down to get a drink from what they THINK is water and it winds up being tar or something that looks shiney from above, but this bird is SO COVERED that if it had landed in some sort of liquid, I don't see how it could have gotten THAT covered and gotten out. If someone did this on purpose, I hope they suffer greatly some how. I guess what's important is that you guys were there to save DD. One lucky little birdie I'll tell you.............


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Thank you for the update on this pigeon, FP. I'm glad to hear that you believe that the bird will be ok. Going by your description of the powerful fumes, you'd really think that those alone would have overcome the bird. 

I'm always suspicious of cases like these and wouldn't doubt it for a second if a human had something to do with it. I'm just thankful that if someone did do this, that they didn't succeed in finishing the job.

Good luck FP, post some pictures of her cleaned up and when she's feeling a bit better.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad this baby is in your capable and loving hands.
I am sure he will be fine under your care.
I had two such babies in the past year, covered in tar/oil, something. The feathers were so messed up , they looked so pathetic.
Sophia, former TB, was covered in tar so badly even multiple baths didn't get the goo and smell out. I had to clip all her feathers really short. She looked funny but she didn't mind. After the moult they look pretty now.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Reti


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Appreciate the update fp.  

I can't image any pigeon seeking out a dripping can of gas & oil to go stand under, so leaning towards a human doing this is pretty much a given.   

At least the baby is secure & safe & getting all 'prettied up' now.  
Thanks again pearlykitty & fp.

Look forward to seeing a picture of our little 'squeakly clean' baby. 

Cindy


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Thank you Pearlykitty and fp for all you have done and all you are doing to help this poor baby.

Best of luck with her.

Linda


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi fp

I am so glad that Diesel Doll is doing better. It is always a toss up on whether to immediately bathe them but I believe you were right to go ahead and do it. The fumes could actually cause greater damage to his respiratory system than the gas/oil could cause to his feathers. You may like to read a thread I did about "Briggs", a little fledgling we picked up a few months back. In his case, we waited a few days because his health, generally, was very poor. I would liked to have bathed him right away because when they are greasy or oily they can't get warm but in his case we had to wait and just try to keep him as toasty as possible. He has been in the aviary for awhile now and you can't even tell who he is because he molted and looks like all the others now. http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=16854

I also agree to go ahead with the Baytril - to be on the safe side. Do you know if she was near a gas station or restaurant? I really hate to think someone doused her deliberately with gas or oil. I remember that Briggs' feathers looked almost like they had been scorched but we are pretty sure he was raised around a grease trap on top of a restaurant.

I am so glad she is in your care and kudos to pearlykitty for taking the initiative to get some help for her.


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Great going F.P.! I could actually smell the gasoline as I read your post.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cindy, s/he's not quite 'sparkling' just yet, and there's this funny looking stuff at the bottom of the carrier. Perhaps discolored 'bloom', or maybe something in the gas and oil mix or??? Don't know on that one. Here's a link to some photos at Webshots:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/556587426sjPMFL

Some very short human hair also fell to the bottom of the cage overnight, this with all the repeated washing and rinsing. I just don't know what to think about how this pij came to this state, it just seems like the odds of it happening randomly....
The eye and foot seem improved although not all the way back to normal.

Thanks for the link, Maggie, I'll check that out. My first 'gunky girl' was DD (can't use this nickname Teresa and Rene-it's already in use  ) and it was from grease in the Dumpster.....plus a few other things as well. Not that in the grand scheme of things it's a great line-up of choices, but I'd still take the kitchen grease. Well, maybe....depends on the cook. little bird suggested I try GOOP which I hadn't realized came w/out the pumice/grit. So I will give that a try. I do remember your bird, Reti, and I sure dont' want to have it come to that, but it can't be good to have those residues lurking around, off-gassing. We'll go at it again Monday or Tuesday.

Victor, Ron did the 'dirty work' and since I was trying to get him returned to the marina as quickly as possible, I only put salts in Beaksley's bath water.
I'll have to give credit to Ron on that one  . As it turned out, he just wasn't releasable, and at the time, his medical issues were my primary concern.

Thanks everyone for the kind words and especially for pearl kitty for caring and getting the whole ball rolling.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

He looks so much better already in the carrier. You can tell his color.
Poor baby. I am so glad he was rescued.

Reti


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> ...there's this funny looking stuff at the bottom of the carrier. Perhaps discolored 'bloom', or maybe something in the gas and oil mix or???...


It almost looks like the sawdust I've seen used to soak up leakage from under a car. The cere looked soaked in the oil, so every breath would have been loaded with fumes. It probably hurt too much to do more than breathe - vocalizations would be too costly. What an improvement you've made in this bird! Hope the progress continues!


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

WOW!!!! What an improvement, FP!!!...excellent! I bet this in itself has relieved so much discomfort and stress on the pigeon


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## pearlykitty (Dec 23, 2006)

whoa! s/he looks really pretty and A LOT better!


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

WOW! A beautiful Checker! 

Who would have thunk from the first picture!!

WELL DONE, fp!!!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, 


Glad to hear things go well...!

So, a few more Dawn-Baths yet-to-go, eh?

How odd, the bits of hair, sawdust or something...gasolene or diesel or solvent or something...kinda sounds like Dumpster contents...someone might have tossed a pan of oil-sodden-cleaning-solvent or the likes into a dumpster not knowing a Pigeon was in there forraging...

Quite an adventure this little one has had...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks, folks, this is stil a bit 'fumy' of a bird, although it's overall demeanor has greatly improved. I'll post some more pics after our next 'grooming' session. I don't think it could have been in this condition long, but that's all relative when you're the one that's been 'dunked'.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I am keeping my fingers crossed that Diesel won't suffer short or long term effects from those fumes!


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

Poor Diesel Doll. The pictures tell it all. What a change from the initial recovery. I imagine the smell will linger for a while after a few Dawn bathings. When I first got Paris, it took two washings to cleanse him. When Tooter went on his 7 months adventure, gee, I think it took 3 treatments to make him fresh again, and Barbie blue bar had 4 baths. She was full of dirt and oil when I recovered her off the street curb.I just can't imagine what it would be like to have a bird doused in oil and fuel. That is just terrible. It makes me wonder if it was a cult sacrifice that went bad for some reason? You are doing an exception job fp. Bless you!


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Well, Diesel Doll, is, indeed, a doll! What a precious little pigeon, FP. Thank you so much for taking this on. S/he already looks a bunch better. Merry Christmas to you and Diesel!

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

Yes, I know you had a DD already, but it made a nice abbreviation. I'm so glad to see the pictures this morning, he looks so much better.

Thank you for your timely intervention and enabling this bird to have quality of life! I guess some kind of detox is in order for this sweety.


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

fp,

Wow, what a difference! Looking good!

Merry Christmas,
Linda


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Bless you, FP for taking in this poor pij and cleaning her up. I do hope she will make a full recovery. Thank God she found her way to you via Pearlykitty. Please keep us updated on her progress. 

And MERRY CHRISTMAS!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Boy fp, what a difference a few good baths make. This is a beautiful bird since you got all that oil/gas off her. The stuff in the bottom does look like sawdust. Makes me wonder if she was in a cock fighting ring for some reason or even being used as bait for dog fighting. 

You've done a wonderful job with her. I hope and pray she suffers no lasting respiratory problem from this.

We have used chinchilla dust in the past between baths, rubbing it in and then brushing it out. It has helped many that we've gotten in.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks everyone, gonna try and get my hands on the gritless GOOP today, but being X-mass....oh, well....we'll see.

Treesa, I was actually thinking of you and the alternative healing methods because much of the experience for this little one can't be reached w/traditional
medicine. So yes, it is detox time for this one.

Maggie, where in the world do you buy chinchilla dust and brushing....what's that like?

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, we got ours at Pet Smart and we use an old, soft toothbrush to brush the dust out. Just make sure to keep it away from nose and eyes.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

fp,

what a difference a bath makes!

Hard to tell what the debris on the newspaper in the photo is. Perhaps crudded-up feather shaft particles, or perhaps the stuff found at the bottom of deep-fat food fryers (such as residues of french fries, corn-breading, etc.).

Indirectly or directly, humans are responsible for the bird's plight, since the La Brea tar pits of southern California which trapped prehistoric sabre-toothed cats and other extinct animals have dried up, and can't be blamed.

I'm disinclined to think a human delberately did it. Call it wishful thinking. I'm more inclined to think a bucket of grease near a dumpster or rear door of a restaurant tipped or got bumped over. (Of course I'm not there to smell whether he smelled like restaurant take-out or motor overhaul).

The two starving pigeons I rescued a month or so ago (pigeon Grey Eyes and pigeon Carter), both of whom died, never made a sound either, that I can recall. I kept a piece of what I suspected was a mass of french fries stuck in pigeon Carter's crop. Texture was consistent with french fries. The piece has dried out, and sure enough, resembles a three-sided wedge of french fry. Last week I saw several pigeons flipping french fries to loosen chunks they could swallow, which someone dropped for them. So, conceivably he could have been pursuing the American Dream of high-fat, high calory junk food. 

Hope the pigeon doesn't suffer long term breathing difficulties. Best of luck with this little fellow, and thanks from me for your efforts for him and thanks for your photos of him.

Larry


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

FP,

Did you try Dawn dish-washing liquid? I think that is what they used on the birds that were caught in the oil spills. Also, I use to use lemons to remove tints and hair dyes, I don't know how lemons work in relation to pigeons, but they sure worked well on people.

Best of luck with this,
Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Got it Maggie, I'll check on that one. 

Larry, it's so definitely not grease from a dumpster. There's no doubt at all that it is gas and oil combined, the fumes were unmistakable, this I'm sure of.
I didn't realize how bad the fumes were until I opened the box, might as well have had 'flammable' stickers all over the box.
This one didn't have much to speak of in h/her crop, but the poops were pretty good just the same. I'm kind of leaning towards discolored and sloughed off skin and feather shafts being the debris at the bottom of the cage. 

Feather, I was thinking about lemon juice also, it does cut vegetable oils and might help if I can't get hold of the non-gritted GOOP. I'm especially worried right now about the residues under the wing that are being 'pressed' against the birds body. The Dawn effort was pretty long just to get the pij to this point, and some areas that were difficult to get at had to wait for a 'second assault'.

There is more improvement today, in that h/she is now grunting, wing slapping, and we can now add wing twitching to the repitoire. 

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, 


Yahhhh, I would think quite a few 'Dawn Baths' inseed...

His system is of course 'poisoned' or comrpomised somehow with the toxic effects of the fumes and other absorbings of whatever this suff was/is...and that will take some time to clean itself out.

I am so glad the poops are 'good'..! As aeromatics from Diesel or Solvents or various Oils - if concentrated and prolongued enough - can effect the Liver adversely, and too the nervous system as a whole.


There are enzymes which specifically 'eat' various Petroleum based Oils, but I do not know anything more about them...possibly, these could be a method also, well worth investigating for Bird contexts.


My intuition ( or maybe reason) suggests that some good, fresh, new Bottle Olive Oil would be good for him...it would especially be good for him in that when eaten, it eases dry skin, aids in Vitamine assimilation, and nourishes generally in many ways.

Olive Oil could also be worked liberally into his Feathers to bind with the contaminants, so more of the contaminants comr off in the next Dawn Bath, also. ( This was an old stand by for Automobile Mechanics - when one's Hands were especially stained with Oil and Grease, to slather them well and work in Olive Oil, then wash them with Soap some little while after...)

Is he a Pecking Bird? Lightly glistening his Seeds of course is a good method for him getting the advantages of Oilive Oil in his sigetive system, which also allows other supplimental powders and so on to adhere to the Seeds.

If you are having to tube-feed him for now, then some little dab of Olive Oil in the formula...which is something I often do for the non self feeders but probably seldom mentioned...

Any gentle recoursed to help de-toxify the Liver, I think would be a good thing for him...maybe some of our members familar with Homeopathy could make some suggestions from that ballywick?


Merry Christmas Diesel Doll, and everyone!


Love,

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

You might consider giving (if you haven't already)the bird 

garlic: improved immunity and to purify the blood

Reishi: Excellent for supportive care for liver, for detox and regeneration.

Neem: Also for liver support and detox

Barley leaf powder:for heavy netal detox

Milk Thistle, turmeric: general overall liver detox


You might try Basic H (Shaklee) as it is one great organic grease cutter, it will cut all the natural oils and powder from the feathers though. You have to be careful not to get near eyes or beak. It now comers in a super concentrated new formula.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I remember getting a bunch of gasoline in my scalp when I was a teenager and it has the sensation of burning pretty bad (even without flames) for quite some time after treatment with all of a bunch of things to cut it, including Basic H, dish soap, you name it. Maybe that debris was skin flakes that have been shed due to damage that way. That response should be long over for this bird, though.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Spilling mineral spirits on clothing that is next to the skin will cause 'burns' as well, although it's not something commonly known or thought of. I do think it was a mix of feather shafts plus skin that was sloughing off from the immediate trauma. I first noticed the 'debris' when Deisel was in the bath, and it seemed at times to be actually coming from the skin itself. Looking at it the next morning, I think there was a mix of both, discolored from the drenching. The initial response is over, there is some minimal similar stuff still coming out but I think it is just what is working it's way through the feathers. It's truly minimal.
I'm leaning towards Cindy's explanation, that the mixture was 'dumped' on the bird from above.

fp


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

How is your little patient doing? How's she doing with eating, drinking and is she showing any signs of neurological problems ? Poops still good?

Perhaps this would be a good time to give some activated charcoal in case any toxins were absorbed through her skin. Another thing you might want to try with her is the distilled water for a week or so. I recently found out that distilled water is very good at pulling toxins from the body. I think you read that thread I started about the distilled water anyway.

Good luck with her and I sure hope she's gonna be alright as time goes on.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Brad,

The little one is doing well all things considered, and I continue to see signs of healing and progress. This morning after being returned to the carrier, s/he did a little roo-coo-cooing, a small/subtle semi-circle two step and continued w/wing twitching alternating w/a raised wing ready for a good 'what for'  ...I'm not seeing anything that would raise an eyebrow in terms of neurological symptoms, I haven't let the pij do 'free flight' time yet, in another day or so for that.

Yesterday, I noticed a long thin piece of skin come loose along the edge of the lower beak, and this a.m. I noticed that the same occurred on the lower eyelid of the eye that previously was having some problems. That eye, btw, is fine now and I d/c'ed the terramycin. Just tying these events in w/the suspicion that some of the 'debris' at the bottom of the cage was skin that sloughed off due the gas/oil mix the pij was covered in. 

The pij is getting vitamin C, garlic, Milk Thistle for now, along w/Baytril. That's a good idea on the activated charcoal and distilled water, Brad; I will throw them in as well. 

As for the poops, they continue to be plump and well-formed, there is a very
slight wet and yellow ring encircling that appears to be fading , the crystallized urates are white. 
I will post some more pictures in a bit after the last bathing session is over with.

You know, whether I end up or not doing so, I always think about the release location and wonder in this instance if it’s a good idea to release back to the same neighborhood. There was never a definitive answer to what happened to this pij and I would hate for it to return to its habits to have a similar incident occur.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Such a beautiful little pij.
You have done a remarkable job of caring for this sweet baby fp.  

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

Sounds like everything is going well for this Diesel Doll, no surprise, since he is getting the BEST of the BEST, in support and care. 

Thank you for the update.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm so glad to hear she's improving. Like you, I'd have major reservations about releasing her to the same location where she was found. There must be a better place where ferals congregate.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I don't think I would take her back to where she was found either .. a repeat of whatever happened to her would be horrible.

Terry


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I agree FP,

We have no idea what happen to her, or why she was in the condition she was in. There has to be a little space somewhere else where she can be safer than she was.

Feather


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

Thanks for the positive update on her...sounds very promising mostly I guess the gas has damaged some of the tissues by the sounds of it and it's dying in areas and falling off, should regenerate though.

I'd agree with the others that when the time comes, she should be released elsewhere into another established flock near you. Of course, she may fly back to her old haunts anyway and that you will never know or have control over.

Glad she's in your care and is improving daily


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> I'm leaning towards Cindy's explanation, that the mixture was 'dumped' on the bird from above.
> fp





feralpigeon said:


> You know, whether I end up or not doing so, I always think about the release location and wonder in this instance if it’s a good idea to release back to the same neighborhood. There was never a definitive answer to what happened to this pij and I would hate for it to return to its habits to have a similar incident occur.
> fp


Hi fp,

It sounds like this youngster is doing very well considering the ordeal. I wish he could tell you what happened. But regardless of whether someone actually "dumped" the mix on the bird, or he somehow got it poured on him, it is not a safe area for him to return, as he may not be as lucky the second time if it happened again, and probably couldn't survive another drenching.

I know it is a worry, but there is still time to find him a good home, even if you have to mail him to a new local.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Treesa, and everyone, thanks for your input. The cere/wattle started to shed the top layer last p.m., so still in the healing mode. When the time comes, questions about the old neighborhood would make me uncomfortable about releasing there. There are many places around here that I would feel better about, as long as the youngster wouldn't home back to the previous location. This would be the other issue regarding h/her release. Sounds like folks think D. Doll is a little hen.

A local fellow brought a pigeon to a vet who eventually released it after treating into a feral flock close by his ( the vet's ) home. The bird homed back to its' old home immediately. So, as Brad mentions, if I release, it's not controllable
whether or not the little one would return to its' original home. And yes, I agree, Feather, seems like in the grand scheme of things that all that is needed is a relatively small and safer space.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp, 


Poor little thing...these kinds of skin exposures to petroleum products, fuels or solvents are of course true and proper Chemical 'burns' in their own right...and are 'serious' in that regard as well as whatever toxicity the organism absorbs otherwise...

I used to once in a great while ( and will again no doubt ) over-fill my old Zippo, be driveing or working on things, and slowly notice a kind of itch on my thigh that soon became one really definite burning sensation, be a big "RED" blotch there of course where the lighter-fluid just seeped into my skin and gave me one really nice chemical burn that would sting and hurt for days...

The 'Dawn' baths of course will help a great deal on this in every way...


Fresh Olive Oil glistened Seeds I think would be a good deal for him...the Olive Oil as a dietary suppliment in this way actually does nourish their Skin from the inside out, probably aids their little Preen-Gland too, and would help him both for easing dry skin as well as being generally nourishing as a food.

Of course they get 'Oil' variously that is naturally a component of the Seeds, but adding it in this way can really help them out.


Best wishes you two!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

Fp, I'm glad to hear that poor little pijjie is doing better. I agree about not releasing where it was found. H/she is a lucky little pijjie to have you taking care of it and nursing it back to health.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

How about an update on little Diesel Doll? Do you still have her, did you release her, how's she doing!?!?!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pigeonpal2002 said:


> Hi FP,
> 
> How about an update on little Diesel Doll? Do you still have her, did you release her, how's she doing!?!?!



Hi Brad et al,

Yes, I still have Diesel here @ my house and have been in communication w/the 'Bay Area Pigeon Underground', lol. We have a home picked out and a mate but haven't decided on a college or graduation present yet  .

Seriously, I was worried about Diesel returning to SF when released and while contemplating this issue, a nice case of canker started blooming which I'm now wrapping up meds on. Concurrently, I've been talking w/the minimonkies about a mate for 'jilted Persephone' whom Prospero dumped in a hot minute for Paloma, a female pigeon they took in a while back and treated for Paratyphoid and is unreleasable.

The upshot is that Diesel will be moving from my house to theirs in a bit and hopefully will become the needed playmate for Persephone to forget about 
Prospero with  .

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Now, THERE is a convoluted pijie soap opera! ROFL

Sooooo glad to hear DD is doing well! I will also WISH her the best in her new home and HOPE all goes as "planned."  

BUT, if DD is a male....????? *sigh*


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp, that is a terrific update on Diesel. I know she'll have a great home with the minimonkies and that way we can keep in touch with her.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Mr. Squeaks and Maggie,

Persephone and Prospero are brother and sister (You did want to hear all the juicy soap opera details did you not??)
Persephone is the jilted female in the brother and sister 'couple'. Paloma is quite the lovely gal, although Persephone really shouldn't be feeling insecure about her looks, she's one healthy, handsome looking pij.

I'm thinking the Diesel, although a doll, is a male doll  and therefore a good
placement for/with Persephone. Now, if I am wrong, we'll soon find out, and who knows, maybe there'll be a new 'soap opera' in the making  .
But, heck, should be ok anyway in a situation where brother and sister are 
'breaking up' and having affairs .

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

MORE complicated than I thought! ROFL

Makes things that much more interesting...will DEFINITELY look forward to those "updates!"


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for the update fp.  
I'm sure DD will be very happy in her/his new home.

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Thanks for the update, FP! Sounds like all is going well in spite of the little canker bump in the road to health and happiness!

Terry


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## littlestar (May 11, 2005)

fp, I'm so glad to hear that Diesel is doing great and is going to a new home to live his/her life out. I would of been worried to about releasing him/her back in the spot too.


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the update, FP. So glad to hear she's doing well and you have a home for her. 

BTW, I had a Persephone pigeon too, my first pigeon (this time around--I had pigeons as a kid, too). I found her, a little lost roller, in the street in front of our house 6 1/2 years ago.


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi FP, 

I'm glad to hear that all is well with Diesel Doll and that she/he will be going to a new permanent home with the Minimonkies I think this poor pigeon deserves to live out the rest of it's life in a secure environment, where it will be cared for and loved.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

Glad to hear DD will have a new home and a mate!  

So, you are not only rehabbing but have started a matchmaking service  

Thank you for the update and everything you have done for Diesel.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I came home last night to find 4 feathers on the floor in front of Diesel's carrier.
When I looked inside, it looked as though the plumage was messed up on one of the wings so I took him out to look and there was a paratyphoid boil on the joint of the wing. It has 'not broken', there is no weeping.

I had given Diesel a course of Baytril for 7 days initially on arrival, so he's back on it. I think the whole ordeal was possitively stressing this bird to the max for canker and paratyphoid to pop up this way within a week of each other. There was no sign of a boil on this bird last weekend as I did a very thorough
exam especially on the wings. 

So, he's here for a while longer as it's easier for me to isolate here than it is for
the Minimonkies.

fp


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Oh, bummer, fp!! 

With all DD has been through, I can understand these problems showing up! I'm glad you discovered the boil BEFORE DD went to minimonkies!

SENDING POSITIVE HEALING THOUGHTS!! HUGS and SCRITCHES TO DD...and HUGS to you too!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might give this a shot, fp: take a fine-needle aspirate from the boil and examine it through the magnifications that you've got. What I saw from that very thing was an exceptionally clear fluid with a few artifacts that proved to be red blood cell nuclei. They're kinda' oval shaped with tiny little knobs on them if memory serves. I had been expecting the aspirate to be laced with Salmonella but I couldn't find any bacteria. I mentioned this to my vet and he laughed and replied that it's tough to find them. He said that you'd probably have to scrape the inside of the skin of the boil or down in the joint to find them (which I didn't do). On that one that I had, it was extremely resistant to the Baytril and we went well over three months trying to get it. The vet had me shift to other antibiotics for awhile in order to try and get it if the Salmonella had gone L-form.

Pidgey


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

I'm so sorry to hear Diesel has a paratyphoid boil, but I'm sure they sucumb to everything that they are exposed to in the outdoor world, when immune system is compromised.

Glad you caught it early, I would also give Diesel, some heavy duty rounds of garlic, Reishi, and nutrition.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks folks,

Yes, I can understand problems coming up from the stress he came here under, I'm just truly disappointed. Though he seems to be rolling w/the 'punches' so to speak.

He was apparently in that condition quite possibly a few days because they began to smell fumes coming from the roof for a couple of days before he landed in their backyard. When someone went to check on the roof after Deisel was found, there were no issues w/gas & oil up there to speak of and they no longer noticed the fumes either. The fumes they had smelt must have been from little Diesel.

Yes, I will pump him up w/some natural remedies, and I'm augmenting the nutrition w/some tubed 'Exact' everday.

I really don't have much free time right now in terms of apirating and looking under the microsope or scraping the skin on the inside of the boil, etc. I've got a problem w/poisoned seeds and I've swept up in the range of 700-800
hundered pounds of them since before the x-mas holidays while also trying to get them to stop continuing the madness. I got my tire slashed today for sweeping them up. The meter maid recognized me and was nice enough to scold me about making sure there was money in the meter so I didn't get a ticket to add to the injury.

I have some metronidazole cream that I gave the boil two applications of and will continue at least for a couple more days w/that. If I'm not getting
much mileage w/the metro cream, I'll switch to panofil.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

FP,

This is really sad that you have to go through this. It is bad enough to worry about poison seed than to have to worry about some one actually doing damage to your person. Please be careful! It sounds like you have a sick one there.

Feather


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

FP

I haven't been able to get your problem off my mind since you first mentioned it but had no idea until your last post the sheer volume of poisoned seed they are putting out. Surely they know that protected birds eat those seed too. 

I wish I could help you sweep those seed up but want to thank you for what you're doing. It can't be easy. Just know that I'm thinking of you and sending prayers for this to be resolved without further harm to the birds and you.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi fp,

I'm so sorry to hear about this horrible poison seed nightmare, that you are trying to resolve.

I'm asking God to keep an extra watchful eye out, (on you and your feral flock) and allows this issue to be resolved quickly.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just wanted to give an update on both Deisel Doll and the Kaiser Permanente poisoning of the 'Overpass Pigeons". 

Deisel is doing really well, h?her poops have always been beautiful from the time s?he got here w/the exception of the onset of the canker issue. H?she is very social, vocal, and responsive when being handled. Other than the damned 'Paratyphoid Boil' which I must say I've had some unkind thoughts about  , this is a small feral with a very sweet and social demeanor. H?she knows that they got rescued and is demonstrative in return.

I'm kind of reticent about announcing anything at all where the Overpass Pigeons are concerned that might seem positive....it could, afterall, collapse.

And....but....if, and however, there were a total of 3 phone conversations that I was a part of and a promised return call to me that did not occur. However, the desired results of the conversations were realized when I was unable to detect any activity in terms of a seed drop or any other disturbance in the specific area that would be a part of the poisoning initiative for the 'Overpass Pigeons' next to "Kaiser Mosswood Facility".
I appreciate their response time and will also make sure that they have humane suggestions and contact information in the event that they select to enclose the area so that access is no longer an issue and care for the rescued young is amply provided for with advance notice to interested parties.

Here's a thread link on the "Overpass Pigeons":

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=10573&highlight=overpass+pigeons

and here's a link to Webshots for photos:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1355562863066604705uKOXUv?vhost=pets

This, was a very uncomfortable time in my life, I've hand-fed and released to this site many babies/young, I wasn't prepared to think of it as a toxic site.
Over the last two days, this site seems 'well again' and I look forward to discussing issues further w/concerned parties.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

FP,

I hadn't realised until now, that these are your babies. You have been taking care of them for years. I hadn't seen the adorable pictures of them sitting all over you, and giving you the "Can I have thirds Mama?" look.

Those pictures were taken before I became a member, and I just can't even remember that far back.

I feel terrible! At times like this I wish we really did have seed holes that we could teleport through. Is there anything that we can do? Write letters perhaps? How can we help you out here?

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Feather,

In fact this flock is where Houdini came from, one of the first I brought home.
He had been shot at and couldn't fly. What a sweetheart he was when I got him home. He jumped up on my shoulder and supervised me while I went 
sprinting through the internet for rescue groups and fixing broken wings....

I was weighing whether or not to just jump in all 'guns' or not, I really didn't want to. I wanted them to not have their backs against the wall and do the right thing. In the mean time, I more
or less had permission to come in to work late and leave late so I could be there and sweep up the sea of seeds that the fellow was spreading out with a wheeled machine.

I think what really got them to listen didn't have as much to do with poison--ecology--humane or ethical treatment of animals, but having an employee who on the one hand was poisoning and on the other slashing
tires. This in not the image a health care agency wants to project to the community.

So the secretary who wanted me to start at the bottom of the hierarchy w/my calls all of a sudden was interested when I mentioned this in conjunction w/the fact that they would probably be listening to me a little 
better if I'd called PETA, the neighborhood group they are in 'arguments' with
over their physical expansion/construction in, and local TV stations.

If they start up again, I won't be low key in how I proceed, but for now they
seem to have stopped as of the end of last week. I can' t tell you how badly
it made me feel to have them reach the seeds first or find some stray ones that I'd missed sweeping up. 

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

So, have they/he stopped putting out the poison seeds?

Let us know if and when you need us. I am so sorry that I didn't realise that these are your babies. I hope that these terrible actions have stopped for good.

I guess my monitor isn't the only thing with a half blank screen.  

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Feather said:


> So, have they/he stopped putting out the poison seeds?
> 
> Let us know if and when you need us. I am so sorry that I didn't realise that these are your babies. I hope that these terrible actions have stopped for good.
> 
> ...



Feather, he/they have stopped for now. The 2nd in command has not called
me back on the topic as he said he would, but regardless, it is stopped right now. I will call the head officer for the facilities and reinforce in a phone call w/a follow up fax the issues raised, their remedial action, and suggestions for humanely dealing w/the roosting.

You know, I not only feed them, and tend to the sick, but I go there and spray the sidewalk w/Nolvasan, clean up and cart it all away as well. What can I say?

Thank you for your offer of help, and if something larger is needed, then I will let folks know. Thanks again,

fp


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## sabina (Mar 11, 2006)

hi fp,

how horrifying this whole thing must've been. i can't even imagine. i'm glad it seems to be resolved, at least for now.

you piqued my interest with this spraying nolvasan on the sidewalk. is that something we could do to disinfect the roof and prevent the pigeons from spreading germs when we feed them there?

sabina


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Sabina,

Yes, it was a nightmare that I had nightmares about and I've not gone into all 
the details but it does seem to be safe again. I'll be keeping a close eye this week and breath a sigh of relief this next weekend if we get through this week w/out incident. 

Regarding Nolavasan, I purchased a tank at Home Depot--but anywhere that sells gardening or possibly construction supplies would be apt to carry these tanks. There's a pump handle at the top of the tank that you work up the pressure with and a wand with a spray tip. It's fast and easy and don't know why you couldn't use this up on your roof for disinfecting. You might want to hose it down afterwards if there's a hose bib up there, should be I think for fire regs. I get Nolvasan and Oxine AH from the Pigeon Supply Houses and either one would do, but Nolvasan would be cheaper.
I fill spray bottles w/the stuff and clean cages and communal areas w/them.
You mix a solution up for both of these products from the more concentrated
product that is shipped.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi all,

A sad update for Deisel although he continues to appear pretty robust. Last night when I took him out of his carrier, he had grown a second boil at the base of his head over his spine. I have an appointment w/a vet this evening for another bird w/a fractured wing and will bring Deisel along in hopes that the vet
will have a look. Must say I'm surprised at this developement.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Good morning FP,

I don't understand what it is that you said the boils were. Someday you are going to have to take me to the side of this forum and give me a good talking to. Not medically savvy, I always thought that boils were natures way of getting rid of something internal that shouldn't be there. Best of luck to you and your patients at the vet. Keep us updated.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Feather said:


> Good morning FP,
> 
> I don't understand what it is that you said the boils were. Someday you are going to have to take me to the side of this forum and give me a good talking to. Not medically savvy, I always thought that boils were natures way of getting rid of something internal that shouldn't be there. Best of luck to you and your patients at the vet. Keep us updated.
> 
> Feather


Good morning Feather,

Well, I guess I'm not listening then. Do you think that Deisel does not have Paratyphoid and that instead that his system is still purging itself of the not so distant trauma of the gas and oil he was covered in? It was just a bit over a month ago I guess.

fp

PS--You're up very early Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

There's a capsule around joints that contains synovial fluid to aid in the smooth
movement of the articulating bones in the joint. In the arthritic form of Paratyphoid, typically a boil will many times be viewed above a joint in the wing. I've seen boils on the spine in ferals before, but having Deisel on Baytril and having a second boil come in isn't encouraging. Your take on boils is correct I believe and in a generic, broad sense. 

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank You FP,

That is clear enough for even my mind to grasp. Poor little thing! There is no dought in my mind that you are on top of this. I just didn't understand what it was. I changed my routine around a bit this morning. Have to watch it though. Sometimes when I log on, I can't get off.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

An update on Deisel, folks. The boil that had appeared on Deisel's neck last night, has just as quickly burst while the other on the wing is still in tact.
I called the vet that I am to go to this evening, but alas, it was out of range
of experience. I now have a call into Dr. Spears from Oakley who is a world
class avian vet, and will see what his take on the situation w/Deisel is.

Deisel is still roo-coo-cooing and bowing when he sees me and seems very alert.

fp


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

We will be waiting for your results and hoping it all goes well with DD.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My experience with Paratyphoid boils (you know, Paratyphoid isn't actually the only thing to do that) is that there is a definite reluctance to use the affected joint, more than likely due to pain. Does Diesel fly with no problem (can't remember)? This might truly be surface problem if that's the case. I hadn't thought about it but that would be one of the reasons for examining a fine needle aspirate. I fully understand how it must be with your other issues going on, just thinking "out loud" here. Can't say whether there'd be another fluid produced by the body that would have the clarity that the stuff I drew out did with as little artifacts. When I described it to the vet, he laughed, nodded and confirmed that it had been done before with the same results. If it were fluid from the lymph system, I don't know what it would look like but there might be something in the books to go looking for.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> My experience with Paratyphoid boils (you know, Paratyphoid isn't actually the only thing to do that) is that there is a definite reluctance to use the affected joint, more than likely due to pain. Does Diesel fly with no problem (can't remember)? This might truly be surface problem if that's the case. I hadn't thought about it but that would be one of the reasons for examining a fine needle aspirate. I fully understand how it must be with your other issues going on, just thinking "out loud" here. Can't say whether there'd be another fluid produced by the body that would have the clarity that the stuff I drew out did with as little artifacts. When I described it to the vet, he laughed, nodded and confirmed that it had been done before with the same results. If it were fluid from the lymph system, I don't know what it would look like but there might be something in the books to go looking for.
> 
> Pidgey


Well, yes, in fact there was a recent case at NYCPRC where I believe E. coli
was found in such a boil. Paratyphoid just seems to be the primary culprit, but bacterial infections such as Staph or E. coli can cause this along w/a rarer culprit, Gout. For urban pigeons who frequently share the same 'dining accomodations' as rats, it's a natural concern where 'joint boils' are concerned, as rats are incontinent carriers of this bacteria specifically. 

Deisel was flying but exhibited marked respiratory challenge which I had attributed to the over-burden h/her lungs had undergone w/the fumes from the oil/gas combo. Just the same, Deisel would find a spot and stay there without exploring h/her way around. The most flying occurred when trying to get h/her to go back into carrier which is a natural response. Once inside the carrier, Deisel would always defend that space, yet roo-coo-coo me. I think everyone knows that drill. May sound odd, but this pij is puddy in my hands if I want to hand feed or medicate, so much so that the first time it happened I thought the pij had expired right then and there in my hands. Not! I think it's a Beasley thing where they know they got rescued big time and bond time and time again w/the same or similar activity. Since the boil arrived, this baby is under quarantine here until I get to the bottom of what's going on as I have other babies in here to worry about, both fur and feathers. As far as a defensive wing wack goes when going into the cage, never the one w/the boil. 'Course, h/she does refuse to get into the 'plow' position.

Regarding reluctance, I always see it as a perfect descriptive word, reluctance. They will enlist a limb if needed/required, but they'd rather not because it hurts. It seems the preference here would be not to use it unless
'necessary' for Deisel. Still think that gets us to square one: boils above joint w/most likely localized pain in addition to other symptoms. Hopefully Dr. Spears will have some answers/suggestions/options tomorrow. I really have never have heard of Paratyphoid specifically over the spine, that's why I want a big gun of the avian vet world looking at it, I would like an answer on this.


Here is a link to the fellow who will be seeing Deisel, you may have to scroll within the page:

http://www.toolady.com/vetrefer/states/california.htm

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Victor said:


> We will be waiting for your results and hoping it all goes well with DD.




Thanks Victor, we'll see what tomorrow brings, I'll be sure and post.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

All right, here's the link I was looking for:

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/

Just an aside, his partner, Ford, raised pigeons as a kid.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

FP and Diesel Doll,

Good luck today with Dr. Speer. It sure appears that if anyone could help out here that it would be him.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

*It's Pox*

Sorry for the delay on the update, just overwhelmed right now. 

Dr. Speers didn't want to do any tests on the boils as he felt 95% certain that Deisel has pox contracted through a vector, as it's not 'in season'. He pulled the feathers out around the two boils and could lift the growths and move around almost like a cyst under the skin.
He said Nolvasan wouldn't kill the virus and to use 1/2 cup of
bleach to a gallon of water, to keep the boils clean w/peroxide undiluted.
No antibiotics, although some people do, but that if the 
boils were kept clean, there shouldn't be a need for antibiotic therapy unless a secondary infection presents. He said cutaneous (dry) pox and diphtheroid (wet) pox can occur together and even along w/canker, which of course makes sense, as canker is a stress disease. I'm sure that Coccidiosis, Canker or any other host equilibrium illness a pigeon could have might flare up as well which is why the supportive or nursing aspect of care was emphasized in my visit w/him. He mentioned oiled birds typically had immuno-suppressed systems and can catch things that other birds may 'throw off'. Also recommended giving him (he thinks Diesel’s a boy also) extra protein during the healing process. 

The boils should suck back down again but sometimes they don't and may develop a cheesy look to them. He said if this happens, that the growth(s) need(s) to be removed as it/they can become cancerous.

Speers said it wasn't Pox 'season' but that Pox can be passed out of season via a vector and that pigeons have something called pigeon fly. That's when I freaked because the canker baby had a fly 'buzzing it' all the way to the car I was trying to shew away. I had to close the door when the 
baby jumped out of my hands and keep both in the car so as not to lose the baby. It was late and dark out, when I got home I had to find the baby hiding up under the dash where the heater was w/a flashlight.
I skipped the 'dipping' and gave Ivomec but obviously a fly had to have been on her and jumped ship w/the handling. I honestly didn't see a fly again when I got home, but need to keep powder in the car so that this never happens again.

It's the overpass where I'm seeing these boils on the wings and above the spine. The first one I saw was at least a few weeks back and I didn't really see a boil, just the feathers sticking up. Thought the pij had gotten free from a hawk or something of the kind. Then other birds appeared w/the boils on the wings over joints. I've also seen these birds dining side-by-side w/a rat.

I've never dealt w/pox before but everything I've read discusses the two forms and where wart like growths appear on unfeathered areas. Diesel’s seems fairly atypical to the links that I have on it. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.chevita.com/tauben/e-index3.html

There's apparently a third type of Pox which is referred to as the septicemic
form of pox:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=2743

I find some reference to this form elsewhere, although not lots of information. 

Anyway, the overpass birds have this, now Diesel, and I've been to the avian vets three times this week--twice for the white pigeon w/the fractured wing who started walking backwards in circles when we returned home from the second visit. The first time since arriving here, I'm hoping this is from a possible concussion. The birds are all in their own niches here, and the white pij is downstairs in the garage. This one will be shipping out soon to the Minimonkies who are adopting.

The week off from poisoned seeds has been nice, but the seed dumps are once again occurring and I'm beside myself as to what to do. It’s just been one hell of a week, one that I couldn’t have imagined possible before living through it.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

I tend to wonder where all of your energy comes from. 

I am still asking if there is anything that any of us could do to help.
Your description of the poison sounded horrific. I am glad that you have found a Dr. that you can trust. I am hoping that the boils will clear up on the "Doll", and that your load eases somewhat.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Funny, Feather, but I feel as though missing at least a third of what I had when younger. 

I am open to any suggestions, as I don't know what or how to help these birds.
What I'd really like to do is rent a scissor lift and go up there and close things up so that they can't get back in, then they won't be poisoned.

I am going to see if PETA will help. If they will perhaps a simultaneous effort
of calls along w/PETA would be successful. It will take a bit more time for me 
to get something going. In the meantime, I do the sweeping thing twice a week.

Thanks for your consistent offers of help, they are much appreciated.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

FP,

Do you have a Peta Chapter in S.F.? Is there any way that you could send them the seeds that are being spread out there for every bird and rodent?

Is this under/overpass unused by people? It just seems to me the poison seeds being put down in that quantity can spread far and wide. Every seed eating creature is in danger. How about the creatures that eat seed eating creatures? PETA should have an interest in this. FP, Kaiser is not in a good light anyway after they were caught dumping homeless patients off in their hospital gowns on skid row. I would think that their public image is not up to standards, and to request or know that an employee was spreading poison out to blow who knows where might really damage that already fragile image.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Feather said:


> FP,
> 
> Do you have a Peta Chapter in S.F.? Is there any way that you could send them the seeds that are being spread out there for every bird and rodent?
> 
> Is this under/overpass unused by people? It just seems to me the poison seeds being put down in that quantity can spread far and wide. Every seed eating creature is in danger. How about the creatures that eat seed eating creatures? PETA should have an interest in this. FP, Kaiser is not in a good light anyway after they were caught dumping homeless patients off in their hospital gowns on skid row. I would think that their public image is not up to standards, and to request or know that an employee was spreading poison out to blow who knows where might really damage that already fragile image.


This is the kind of thing I don't know--PETA chapters and their whereabouts.
And sure I have enough seeds in the car to mail a few probably to everyone
in SF  even after throwing hundereds of pounds out.

I never heard about Kaiser dumping homeless patients off in thier hospital gowns on skid row. But if they did, they probably waited until the temps dropped knowing Kaiser  

You and I know that squirrels and songbirds will eat the poison and that SharpShinned Hawks will eat pigeons, but according to Lindsay Wildlife Center
none of the above happens. Only the pigeons eat the poison and Hawks don't eat pigeons so everything will be fine.

It is an overpass that automobile traffic goes under, and metered parking on both sides of the two lanes in both directions with sidewalks on both sides.
The pigeons roost on only one side, that would be the same side as Kaiser.

Kaiser has a building sandwiched between this on one side and a park on the
other side that is home to lots of other wildlife. They also have patient parking under the building.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Yes, Here in L.A. Kaiser employees were caught on tape dropping off a patient early on a cold morning, wearing nothing but one of those hospital gowns. To top it off the patient appeared to be disoriented. I think that they were caught more than once. Not to mention that family members of one of the patients (an elderly person) witnessed it on T.V. It was a public outrage!

Now...What can we do to notify animals groups? What animal groups? If people walk through this dumping site then they are also taking the seeds from place to place on the bottom of their shoes. All of us know that this happens. 

Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle this situation? The Local Humane Society, maybe? I don't know FP. Let me e-mail Andi to see if she can think of anything.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

That would be great Feather, whatever suggestions are welcome.

I'm probably the only one who is walking in the seeds besides the man who does it and his machine. It's off to the side of the overpass and sidewalk in the form
of an embankment if this makes sense. He always dumps on Fridays, and once again either on Mondays or Tuesdays so I was going to try and be there when he does this coming week.

Regarding Kaiser and the dumping of elders at Skid Row in hospital gowns, I 
would think that the State would be after them for elder abuse. I wonder
what technicality they possibly could think would cover their butts on that one?
These folks have too much money on their hands to pay too many attorneys to cover their questionable ethics and behavior.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

FP,

Neither of the links you posted works for me ..

Terry


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

TAWhatley said:


> FP,
> 
> Neither of the links you posted works for me ..
> 
> Terry



Here are a couple of other links while I work on the others:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/other_diseases/avian_pox.jsp

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

They are fixed as best as I can, the Chevita site will require scrolling. That was originally linked through a remote site.

fp


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*Geez FP I totally*

missed this thread...I could possibly get in touch with someone who may help out with the posioning situation up there. Let me know all the details in a email to [email protected] 

I tried to read all of the post on this topic but got lost some where. 

Take care,
I know it is a stressful situation , remember to breath and take time for you....

Andi


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks Andi,

I'm gonna 'hit' you now.

fp


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Thank You Andi, 

This is really bothering me, and I feel helpless. Do petitions work in cases such as this. Funny how the pigeons like that particular medical building. A block and 1/2 from me I can see the pigeons soaring over that building. I would sure hate to think that they have the right to put poison out to kill them if they felt like it.


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## andinla (Mar 11, 2003)

*The best way to*

get it stopped I have found is to announce it, and show it to the public, either by walking out in front of the business who is allowing birds to die a painful death. Signs made up and picket. Also e-mails and telephone calls from various people to the company. They don't want this made public it makes them look bad. 

It worked for us at a gas station who was trapping tons of pigeons and killing them. The owners of the company got sick of us emailing , climbing on top of their roof to release birds, and stating to them that animal activists would be out front walking and passing out fliers to their customers on a certain date. They pulled the traps before we had to picket..

Maybe if you could post their number or possibly get their email addresses so we can start protesting from our homes. The sooner the better. 

Feather-- as far as petitions go, it usually happens that by the time you get enough signatures, the damage has already taken place...sad......but true


I just saw your post FP it's late Sunday night, I will email you in the morning sometime....Thanks for helping the birds FP your wonderful! 

Andi


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