# ** Milk & Sick Pigeons **



## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

According to many of our threads dealing w/hand feeding babies, or helping 
injured birds, the advise given is no dairy, w/exception of yogurt for its good gut bacteria. Yet in the Resource section, in an excellent post from Arty, a former member, there is the following entry:

GOING LIGHT
With this disease the flesh will waste away and the pigeon will look sick and have diarrhea. This is a symptom of another problem, consult someone for help in curing this and feed warm milk with bread or meal in the meantime.

http://www.internationaldovesociety...ing Light.htm
http://www.internationaldovesociety...20Light 2.htm

Is there a value specific to this condition that would make milk useful for the 
pigeon, or is this just one of those topics where there are different yet respected schools of thought, or is it just plain wrong?? What's the deal,
lemon peel?? If the information is just plain wrong, shouldn't it be edited?

Thanks,
fp


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi fp,

I searched both "Going Light" articles and then the whole site for the word milk and could not find any mention of using bread soaked in milk for feeding pigeons or doves...the only time milk was recommended was for baked foods. Was the quote in one of the the articles or Arty's own opinion?

Arty was enthusisatic but new to pigeons.

The first "Going Light" article was written by "Helen from England" and from the wording I am convinced that is our moderator (Nooti) .

Helen is a very experienced pigeon rehabber having dealt with literally hundreds of them each year and this is what she had to say about feeding baby pigeons bread and milk



> Bread has no nutritional value and milk contains lactose which will eventually kill the bird.


BTW, the link doesn't work for me...try this one: http://www.internationaldovesociety.com/Articles/Going Light.htm 

I found this is the exotic vet site (http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/20facts.html ), it explains why milk is bad and yoghurt okay:

Birds Cannot Digest Milk

If you think about it, this makes sense. Mammals are nourished during infancy with their mother's milk. Birds would never be in a situation in the wild where they would drink milk. For this reason, birds do not possess the digestive enzymes necessary to process milk. Parent birds regurgitate food to their babies in the nest. Although you might have heard about pigeons feeding their babies crop milk, this is actually sloughed cells from the crop and secretions, and not a milk product at all. 

Milk sugar is called lactose. Mammals have a digestive enzyme, lactase, to digest milk sugar. Birds simply lack lactase and cannot digest milk products containing lactose. Birds will develop diarrhea when lactose in the diet reaches between 10 and 30 percent. Products that contain a significant amount of lactose are dried skim milk and dried whey. Humans may also suffer from an inability to digest lactose, and this is called lactose intolerance. 

Some milk products contain little or no lactose, and these may be safely fed to birds. And actually, these products (cheese and yogurt) are a good source of calcium for birds. Some owners have asked me if they can feed birds items containing lactose if they also give them one of those products for humans (such as Lactaid) to aid in the digestion of milk sugar. Unfortunately, that is also dangerous, as one of the by-products of lactose digestion is galactose, which is also toxic to birds. So these products must never be used in birds. 

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cynthia,

Thanks for your prompt and most comprehensive reply. I tried the links once they were highlighted in the post and saw that they didn't work, but the links in 
the Resource post from Arty do work and bring you to Going Light Part I & II.
I suspected that the first article was written by Nooti, whom I have read some
of the more informative info from in the archived threads. And no, you are right, her article makes no mention of milk. I have recently seen T.Whatley's 
comments on milk in a thread as well. Originally, I thought that the quote about
milk and bread was just part of the link, but after Terri's recent comments, went
back to re-examine who was saying what. And you are correct in your con-
jecture that it was Arty's commentary in front of the link. That's when I de-
cided to ask about this in a new thread. Your point about crop milk is an im-
portant one, because if a new user is using the search engine and sees the 
term crop milk, they may make an association w/milk as in dairy milk.

This is the link in our resource section where this comment is made:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=8813

If you scroll down, you will see "Going Light" as a separate category from
Coccidiosis which I think confounds further.

Even tho I knew pijies didn't make milk, I had seen this post and assumed it 
came from the dovesociety. Yet when I read the article there was positively
no mention of milk. It just seemed to me that this comment by Arty s/b
deleted from that post so as not to bring unnecessary confusion to those less
experienced who are relying on that section as an encyclopedia of sorts. Also, IMO, the links s/b combined into the coccidiosis category.

Maybe this resource post could get cleaned up a bit by someone w/edit
capabilities. I might add, that it is a very useful post w/alot of great links.

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> Cynthia,
> 
> It just seemed to me that this comment by Arty s/b
> deleted from that post so as not to bring unnecessary confusion to those less
> ...


Hi fp,
You have brought out an excellent point.
I'm not sure where Arty obtained the information made in his statement:
(_*GOING LIGHT
With this disease the flesh will waste away and the pigeon will look sick and have diarrhea. This is a symptom of another problem, consult someone for help in curing this and feed warm milk with bread or meal in the meantime*_) but it's incorrect & does need to be edited.

When a pigeon is 'going light' he is near starvation & milk is the very last thing that should be put in his system.

They need electrolytes, e.g. Lactated Ringers or International Rehydrating Solution (Half a litre of water (preferably filtered) • Half a teaspoonful salt • Half a tablespoonful sugar or glucose Stir until salt and sugar are dissolved and administer lukewarm). I copied this recipe from another post & it can be made in any kitchen.  

Cindy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I've edited Arty's post and removed the reference to bread and milk. Thanks for pointing out this erroneous information FP. 

Everyone .. please do bring any erroneous information to the attention of the moderators so it can be corrected as quickly as possible

Thakns!

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi fp,

I am very glad that you brought the subject! The RSPCA feeds squabs a product called Complan and because they use it I assumed that it was safe and recommended it to other UK members until Helen told me that it contained lactose (I must go back and edit old posts!). 

Once I realised that milk was unsuitable for birds I assumed that applied to all milk products and that I had been wrong in giving cheese to robins as a treat and to wrens as a lifesaver in winter. The research that your post prompted has really helped me, now I can put cheese back on the menu!

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for everyone's input. OK, so going light is generic for any of several reasons, cheese is ok, yogurt for gut flora-but not the preferred method, and
a pinch of salt and sugar is not the IRS but based on it. By George, I think
I've got it 

Thanks again,

fp


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

feralpigeon said:


> going light is generic for any of several reasons
> fp


I use the term 'going light' when a pigeon is near starvation. There are two distinctive 'symptoms' of a pigeon 'going light', a very sharp keel bone & a pigeon falling face forward when attempting to walk. 

Figuring out the reason why they have reached this point can be a real challenge.  

Cindy


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi everyone....

if I may add....

A pigeon will go light because it is either sick, and it won't eat, or it can't eat due to blockage, or inability.

A pigeon will also go light because of an emotional cause, they just stop eating and want to die.

I had such a pigeon, I noticed she stopped eating in the afternoon one day, and then I noticed her not eating at all the next day and she isolated herself from th others, and this continued- but she would drink. She looked fine, she was not weak, no fluffed out feathers and she beat up any pigeons who came near her. I figured it was psychological. She had lost her mate and lost an eye and I put her in rehab facility for recovery with my Satinettes and show pigeons, isolating her from the familiar coop. I hand fed her morning and night, bringing her in the house and then put her back to the coop with the others. This went on for a week and a half and then she started eating by herself again. She either got tired of me shoving seed down her throat or regained her will to live. Now she is healed both physically and mentally, and she is back with the homing pigeons and has a new mate.

There is an emotional aspect in pigeon care, especially when a bird goes light. So now when a bird seems ill, or is aggresive, or behavior changes I check the emotional as well as the physical side of it.

The best source probiotics for pigeons is a bird probiotic or human probiotic in powder form. If you are desperate, I would use kefir instead of yogurt as yogurt has mainly acidophulus whereas kefir has numerous microorganisms. Kefir is easier digested by young children, even babies. I'm making kefir myself now, and what a difference! Good gut bacteria is most important for immune system response for humans, birds, and animals, as well as a digestive aid.

Treesa


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Cynthia,


Hmmmmmm...nice mentions, distinctions...much obliged!

I had only the tid-bit of their intolerance for 'Lactose' to go on...this is filled out nicely now.

Best,

Phil
el ve


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

When I first started to look up information about the pigeon, there were a couple of sites that had lists of "facts" about the pigeon. One of the listed facts said that pigeons have no sound for physical pain and that they suffer
in silence. I found this to be interesting because I have noticed that they are very vocal over emotional pain. For example, I saw a pigeon in the tenderloin "crying" over the car-kill of what appeared to be his/her mate,a very heart wrenching sound. Also, one of my birds cries to me for attention, again emotional. 

Conversely, some time back, I drove by a group of pigeons on a roof looking
down into the street at what I thought was a dead pigeon. I stopped to tend to their dead for them when what I thought was a car-kill moved in my hands.

I rushed home with the bird who watched me intently w/labored breathing but
not a sound otherwise. As I pulled into the driveway the bird rolled his head 
away from me and died, he must have been in great pain but never a whimper.

It is so touching that they are very vocal about their emotional pain and yet 
silent in the face of much physical pain that they endure from illness to injury to deliberate torture.

I think raising the issue of the emotional aspect of helping pigeons is a very
good point to bring up and has an impact as you've expressed Treesa, in treating the whole problem--holistic pigeon care, now that's a thought.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Treesa,

Wow, yes...nice mentions...

Hmmm...'Kifir'...sounds good.

Any advice on how I may interest adult Pigeons to eat it?

I will get some and try.

Some of mine, being ferals who are now well from some illness or other, or illness and injury...had been on antibiotics, might do them good...

Are there any powdered pro-biotics which one could get to stick to Seeds with a little Olive Oil?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## upcd (Mar 12, 2005)

*Most Horrible!*

When pigeon goes light it make me feel terrible. 50/50 chance of life or death. Sometimes I have had luck with a wheat beard and water mix. Have also used a ground dried catfood mixture. In addtion to electroileyes. Some make it some don't. It diffcult to treat.

Debbie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

AZWhitefeather said:


> I use the term 'going light' when a pigeon is near starvation. There are two distinctive 'symptoms' of a pigeon 'going light', a very sharp keel bone & a pigeon falling face forward when attempting to walk.
> 
> Figuring out the reason why they have reached this point can be a real challenge.
> 
> Cindy


Cindy,

This would describe DD's condition to a "T" when I first took her home.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I haven't tried the kefir on my birds because it is better for them to get the powdered pro-biotics. 

If you get the human probiotics, I found they don't mix well in water, use wheat germ oil to get it to stick to the seeds. The pro-biotics for pigeons is a powder form that usually mixes well with water, and it will say it on the label.

I won't use store bought kefir, if I do decide to try it on my birds, I use the home made. 

Treesa


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

*Probiotics*

I learned recently from my vet that probiotics packaged for humans are best. He explained to me that unless the product is kept refrigerated and has an expiration date, it's probably useless.  I was shocked, as I'd been using a probiotic product labeled for pigeons for several years, and it wasn't cheap! One of my hens developed diarrhea with no apparent cause and when the vet checked her droppings he found nothing--no beneficial _or_ detrimental bacteria. He recommended I buy probiotics from a health food store, which I did. I selected a lactose-free product and I keep it in the fridge. I've been giving it to all my pigeons several times a week and their droppings look textbook perfect, including the hen that had the problem. I mix the grain with a tiny bit of olive oil (wheat germ would probably be better-gotta get some) to make the powder stick.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I have had a product called Protril in the cupboard for years. I suppose it is a probiotic because it "crowds out bad bacteria". I guess I will have to bin that now. 

Cynthia


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Thank you for that information. I have a pigeon pro-biotic that I keep in the refrigerator, as well as the human probiotic, think of it as having live bacteria in it, which will die if not kept cool.

I'm continuing to alternate between the pigeon probiotic and human probiotic, but will put my birds on human probiotic after the pigeon pro-biotic is gone. 

Since my kefir is so easy to tolerate as it has no acidopholus but lots of different bifidus and bulgaricus strains, I may just try it one time on them and see how they do. 

Treesa


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Probably better to buy human where expiration date is concerned as I just got 
the Beyers herbal tonic (kinda pricey w/the shipping)=propolis, ginseng and royal jelly and two out of the three years shelf life have already expired.  

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

Also, as my vet pointed out to me, there are stricter controls on products produced for human consumption.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> Also, as my vet pointed out to me, there are stricter controls on products produced for human consumption.


Birdmom, that's what I was thunking.
fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Birdmom4ever, 

And all others here too...

Thanks for this thread...tis a good-'un.

I will get some people pro-biotics and some Kifir atthe Healthfood store later when I have an errand near to it.

Now, how does one get one's Adult Birds to consume the Kifir?

How do you do it?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Thank you for that information. I have a pigeon pro-biotic that I keep in the refrigerator, as well as the human probiotic, think of it as having live bacteria in it, which will die if not kept cool.
> 
> I'm continuing to alternate between the pigeon probiotic and human probiotic, but will put my birds on human probiotic after the pigeon pro-biotic is gone.
> 
> ...


Part off and on topic here, but people who want to get the benefit of miso and then cook it kill the beneficial living organisms. Miso is attributed to aiding in help w/radiation poisoning. It s/b added to the soup in desired amount after the soup is cooked, only to the portion being used.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,


I would think Miso should be good for Birds, or most Birds, anyway...

I used to make it, but it has been awhile...any tips on how best to make it?

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

I have been using human grade probiotics for a couple of years now myself for the exact reasons that Birdmom has stated. The fact is, many of the products you buy for pigeons/birds or animals don't have as strict quality controls on them as the human equivalents. I give my birds human grade halibut oil capsules instead of cod liver oil products bought for birds and I also use human grade brewers yeast instead of products that are meant for pigeons.

As for the human probiotics not mixing well with water...I find this to be true as well. So, I just give the whole capsule individually to my birds 1-2 times per week. Not convenient for people with many pigeons but it works well for me.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

pdpbison said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> 
> I would think Miso should be good for Birds, or most Birds, anyway...
> ...


Hi Phil,

I used to collect my own herbs in the woods and make my own tinctures,
liniments and salves, but that almost seems like a past life now  .

I never did make miso myself, I know it's a live food and requires refridgeration in order to retain its properties and cannot be cooked to avail
oneself of its benefits. If you used to make your own, you are ahead of me
on that one. I would think the dilemna would be in trying to figure out how
little to give, but would think of course, in the wa wa would be a good delivery, n'est-ce pas? Go, Phil!

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi fp,

Yea...I used to buy the Miso in little Pouches, in the refridgeratore section of some Oriental Markets, and add Sea Weed and Tofu, but I think I used to simmer it which would haqve been bad for the little friendly Organisms in it...I did not know what I was doing...Lol...

It would be easy for the Youngsters, to feed it to them with their Seeds and so on, but as for the grown-up Birds...hmmmmm...I dunno...I will try and see what happens..!


Phil
Las Vegas


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