# Sick female pigeon



## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

One of my hens is acting strangely. She is holding her wings down almost as if she is relaxed but now is suddenly very tame as if she is weak. I can get extremely close as if she rather not fly, and also seems to struggle in flight and sometimes misses her perch. I handled her, the inside of her mouth looks clean, feels light but she is also the smallest hen I have. Today at feeding time she didn't even come down and stuff herself as she usually does.

Is this 'going light'? I just got her and don't know much about her history. Any help would be appreciated.


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Sorry to hear your little hen appears to be feeling a bit under the weather.

While waiting for further assistance, perhaps you could isolate her & offer supplement heat (place her on a towel lined heating pad, set on low or under a low wattage lamp, if you haven't already done so.

You might also want to replace her regular drinking water with the rehydrating solution (to a cup of room temperature water add a pinch each of salt & sugar). 

What do her droppings look like?

Please keep us posted.

Cindy


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I was doing lots of research I am thinking it is either coccidiosis, or E coli. She does not want to fly, all the other birds are full and laying down on their perches and she is standing with droopy wings and eyes closed.

I am going to bring her in and put her in a small bird cage, and I will definitely add some sugar and salt to her water. I just need some med suggestions so i can order them before work, if no one chimes in Ill just order some that cover most of these types of symptoms.

I just got her so I feel the stress of shipping may have brought this on. She is also moulting so that doesn't help either.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Usually when they're feeling that bad, you don't have "days". She probably needs some real help now. It would probably be best if you can get a heat lamp on her (such that she can get out from underneath it if need be). Can you count the respiration rate (breaths taken in a minute)? For medications and shooting blind, I'd start with a Baytril/Metronidazole/Amprolium combo. You can use any anti-coccidial, though, like "Appertex". You may also have to start tube-feeding her. Is there any place near to you that you might be able to get some drugs quickly or a vet?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

How long has it been since she laid an egg?
Do you give your birds calcium?


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Grim, I would check for egg binding first and if that is not an issue go with the meds that Pidgey suggested. At this point, time is of the essence.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I just received this bird around 5 days ago. I ordered Dacoxine, which treats coccidiosis, as well as E coli. I will email the person who I received this bird from and see if he knows if she has bred. I do not give calcium. I did some searches on the treatment I ordered and found some forums where pigeons had been going light and stopped flying and after receiving Dacoxine were back to normal. 

(The 4 in 1 tablet for individual treatment of Cocci-Canker-E-Coli and Paratyphoid. This product works. 1 tablet a day for up to 7 days)

The other birds from the same shipment are all lively and healthy, and if not resting are flying from perch to perch. I noticed this a few days ago while they all flew from perch to perch this hen would just stay put. They are all moulting and are the only pigeons I own currently.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have had a similar experience with hens that are having a hard time laying. Often is had been the first time the bird laid.
It also can happen if the bird doesn't have enough calcium. I use oyster shell. It's always available for my birds in a separate dish. I buy it in 50# bags from the feed store. It's not expensive and lasts a long, long time.
Do get the bird on heat and email/call the breeder. If the bird is going to lay for the first time and was just shipped to you a few days ago all this is adding up to a stressed bird.
Do you have a vet near by that sees birds?
Pidgey's right. If this bird is egg bound, you don't have a lot of time.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Can you at least describe the poop? Are the urates white, off-white, yellow or getting neon-greenish?

Pidgey


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Well the bird is an 05, so she is not young. However the seller added in a quick follow up email.

The cock was driving her before he boxed them. She has been
vacianted for PMV and samanella.

Ok now it is time to research egg binding. You should be able to feel a bump though in most cases right?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have never been able to feel them but others say they can. 
There is also the worry that an egg has broken inside.
Is she eating/drinking at all? Are there any poops?
Have you put her on heat yet?


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## Lin Hansen (Jan 9, 2004)

Grim,

This is a pretty decent link ref. egg binding from our Resource section:
http://www.geocities.com/romafancy/romanewa1.htm

Also, you can utilize the "Search" option to look at past threads dealing with egg binding by typing the works "eggbound" or "egg binding" in the Search box.

I'm sure others will be along with further advice.

Good luck,
Linda


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Her droppings are solid, she is still strong and tries to avoid being taken out of the cage. Can I place a heat lamp on top of one side of the cage? Is this really beneficial? I am about to leave for work but will post an update when I get home. Also I do not have any local avian vets.

Droppings are white and dark green, solid


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I have always used a heating pad set on low. Will there be someone else at home to make sure she doesn't get too hot?
Where are you located?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, they're so tough that sometimes they'll eat, drink and die within a couple of hours so never assume that just because they're putting up a good fight that they've got plenty of reserve. They might and they might not and you're not going to know which is the case until it's too late in some of the cases.

Well, at least the whites are white, so that's one good sign.

Pidgey


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I have her in a small bird cage about 2 feet long. I have a heat lamp over one corner and she is in the other corner. I have the cage half covered with towels and put a bowl full of grass in case she wants to nest down. She can not over heat.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grim, oyster shell is fine under normal circumstances, but what you should
be sure and keep on hand w/laying hens is calcium gluconate for emergencies
when the hen is late laying/egg bound. Dacoxine is a good multi-remedy, but 
you should also have the individual meds in your medicine cabinet as well. It may be that you can't get everything at once, but please add on as finances permit. You'll find folks more than happy to chime in and help w/suggestions from their own experience. How is your hen doing and what is your general location?

For egg binding, moist heat is a good choice of heat to apply. Since we don't know
for sure what the issue is for your hen, hence the suggestions of heating pad and heat
lamp. If you verify it is egg binding, moist heat would be important.

Some links on egg binding:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9262&page=2

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=3060

http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/eggbinding.htm

fp


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

She is bright eyed and standing straight and has many solid droppings. Still dark green. Still strong and willing to move from the hand. The heat lamp seems pointless since she stays far from it. I also gave her some olive oil down her throat since I read that may help pass the egg (if any). Are there any other signs of egg binding I should be looking for? 

Also why are other diseases being so quickly ruled out? Is it also possible she is holding her egg in purposely since she is not on her nest?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

"Lobster Back" is a common description of the posture that is held in this mode.
I'd guess that folks are thinking egg binding because it is a health concern that
folks w/hens worry about. You didn't say your general whereabouts? We may
have a member in your area that could have a look or that may have meds already on the shelf should this be necessary.

fp


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

I'm "double" suggesting the calcium gluconate .. better to be safe than sorry.

Terry


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grim,
How is your bird this morning?


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## les3007 (Jul 23, 2005)

*If It,s Egg bound*

Hi there

I'm sorry to hear your little pigeon isn't well. If it is egg an egg stuck then I thought you might be interested to know what happened with my little Beaky( street pigeon with deformed jaw) when she was eggbound. She was quiet for a couple of days sitting on her own not interested with anything, I had a look over and she seemed ok so I thought I would just keep my eye on her, it never occured to me it could be an egg as she is around 5yrs old and has never laid one before, even though she has a mate.

The next day was drooping her wings and hunching her back, I started to think it could be an egg and when she started lifting her tail and straining I convinced it was, I looked up what to do and did everything I was able to,(heat, liquid calcium, olive oil, warm bath) but still no egg, our local vet was not very good and said she had impacted poo and not an egg and said I should put olive oil or vaseline up her vent and try massage it out, but I was scared to as I still thought it was an egg and didn't want to break it, I rang up a local wild bird Sanctuary to ask if they knew of a avian vet who would treat pigeons and they gave me the phone number of the vet they used and I took her there as it was day 5 now and I thought she might die. When The avian vet saw her he knew right away it was an egg and gave her 2 injections, they were:

Oxytocin 0.15ml
Calcium Glutonate 0.15ml but this was diluted 50/50 with water

he said if no egg come back in the morning and he would repeat, but to keep her warm and quiet until then. when I got home and lifted her out of her box, I couldn't believe it but there it was a perfect little egg  

I hope this helps,

luv les x


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Wow excellent story. I really appreciate everyones input and help!

For an update this morning the hen was sitting completely normal in the cage and eyes bright perched on her bowl.

I placed her back in the flight and she flew to the highest perch and even flew down and ate and drank and returned to the perch. I am watching her from inside and she is acting completely normal. Is it possible she was just not feeling well? All symptoms of yesterday seem to have cleared but I will keep a close eye on her and get that calcium that was suggested. It could never hurt to keep it on hand for future use as stated.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm glad to hear the bird is feeling right, and you definitely need to keep a close eye out on her.

Sometimes, they will seem to feel better and act normal, but please follow up with some calcium and make sure the hen is getting enough rest. Perhaps some time away from the male would be beneficial also.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Grim, 
You do need to get the calcium and have it available for your birds at all times rather than for future use.
I'm really happy your hen is doing better but as Tressa says, keep a close eye out on her.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey Grim, that is really great your girl is feeling better.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

She does seem much better, but this evening I see a wing hanging. I am going to bring her in and I have ordered the Calcium Gluconate. Should I give her this in a main dose or add to the water.

Also should I give her the 4 in 1 meds as well?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grim said:


> She does seem much better, but this evening I see a wing hanging. I am going to bring her in and I have ordered the Calcium Gluconate. Should I give her this in a main dose or add to the water.
> 
> Also should I give her the 4 in 1 meds as well?


Grim do you know how to crop medicate?


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grim, if you don't know how to crop medicate, here's a sticky from the 
Resource Section that should help you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=15696

Personally, I would dose as opposed to just leaving in the bowl. You can
leave out calcium grit for your hens on GP, but when trying to intervene on
a possible egg binding scenario, you want to give the hen a dosing regimine
that isn't left to luck of the draw in terms of how much she will/will not drink
from the bowl. This especially in light of not feeling well. 
The calcium gluconate will also be available for her body in much quicker time than the grit.

Calcium gluconate/grit should be witheld when giving Baytril/Cipro or
members of the Tetracycline family. Other than that, meds can be 
concurrent w/calcium.

fp


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Thank you for the help and sticky


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I gave the hen some calcium and have added some to the water. How long would it take to notice if it made a difference? She is still not able to fly well but eats and acts normal. Could anything else be causing this like maybe worms? I believe she is wormed. All the other birds are fine and very strong fliers compared to this hen.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's a bunch of things that can cause those symptoms, mostly chronic infections. It's usually best to get some lab stuff done although most fanciers just hit 'em with a four-in-one medication and hope for the best.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grim said:


> I gave the hen some calcium and have added some to the water. How long would it take to notice if it made a difference? She is still not able to fly well but eats and acts normal. Could anything else be causing this like maybe worms? I believe she is wormed. All the other birds are fine and very strong fliers compared to this hen.


Could be one of the known conditions they live in host equilibrium with such
as canker/Trichomonas or Coccidiosis, or as mentioned an infection. Could
even be an infection that is hen/egg laying related. If you had a base line
to go from it would be easier/quicker to start ruling things out. You could
treat with a medication such as Trimethprim Sulpha which will address both
the coccidial overburden issue as well as anaerobic bacteria. If you have an
egg related issue, the bacterial problem will just return. Do you have an avian vet that you can take this bird to and at least get an X-Ray done?

fp


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

She is still her usual self, only slightly drooping her right wing. Also seems to sleep more than the others. The calcium has shown no new improvement, and I don't believe egg binding is an issue. She perches and stands fine, and flys readily just not well. 

Would you recommend a 4 in 1 med at this point? I do not think it is practical to take her to a vet since none in my area specialize in birds.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Grim,

If you haven't seen this link, take a look and see if there is anyone nearby that
would be suitable. Even if just to call for a referral. I don't remember now which part of Florida you are in but there are some entries on the list.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Personally, I don't use the combo meds and if I'm going to combine, do so 
w/the stand alone medications that I have on hand. I would, in this instance,
treat w/Trimethoprim Sulpha because sometimes a coccidial overburden can
cause them to be reluctant to fly. This medication is good both for coccidial
infections and anaerobic bacteria which makes it a good choice.

Have you isolated this bird and if so, it would also be good to post a picture
of the hen and the droppings. Have you noticed any unusual odors to the 
droppings? Is her mouth both clear and free of distinctive odor?

Besides vitamin/mineral supplements, have you treated for anything since
acquiring these birds and did the person you get the birds from tell you if
they had? Sorry if some of these questions may be redundant.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try feeling the joints of the droopy wing very carefully and comparing them to the joints of the other wing to see if you feel any puffiness or swelling.

Pidgey


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Ok it is late now, but I will try to supply a picture tomorrow. I have not felt her wing but will tomorrow and post an update. Are those medications made for pigeons or do I need to find specific doses? She is not isolated because she is still active enough to be part of the flock, and I think separating her into a small cage would just stress her. I may do so just to see the droppings though. I will post and update tomorrow.


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Grim said:


> Ok it is late now, but I will try to supply a picture tomorrow. I have not felt her wing but will tomorrow and post an update. Are those medications made for pigeons or do I need to find specific doses? She is not isolated because she is still active enough to be part of the flock, and I think separating her into a small cage would just stress her. I may do so just to see the droppings though. I will post and update tomorrow.


Not knowing what she has is of great concern, as it could be contagious to your other birds, therefore the suggestion to isolate, not just for her benefit.

She does need to be isolated so you can also observe her and also see if she has wet poops. Not flying is definitely a symptom of something going on, and its usually not good. Poops can also give an idea of where to start in rehabbing.

Keep her out of drafts in warm, dim room out of noise and traffic. Administer some probiotics to start, some colloidal silver for any kind of infection and some ACV in her drinking water. These things will help on the course to figuring out what is going on.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

She flies around just has a hard time


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Grim said:


> She flies around just has a hard time


That in itself is a symptom, please follow advice, she is stressed more trying to compete for food and water and trying to act normal among her fellow birds. 

Give her a break.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Pidgey, I felt the right wing and I think I do feel a difference in the shoulder part. It feels different then the left wing but only slightly. This is the wing she kind of droops and when she flies it almost looks like she is flapping it off beat like maybe its swollen? The weird part is she flies right down with the others eats and drinks like a pig, then flies back up to her perch. Also I find her on different perches throughout the day. She is flying around fine just not correctly it is so hard to explain.

Im working on getting a picture of her


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Actually, the symptoms and behavior that you're describing is pretty classic. It's often an arthritic process that has its basis in a chronic infection. The articular (joint) form of Paratyphoid (clinically: Salmonellosis) acts like this but we can't be sure that's the exact bug that's causing it. Usually, we treat those kinds of presentations with Baytril (Enrofloxacin) for extended periods (2 weeks to a month, sometimes even longer).

Paratyphoid in pigeons is usually caused by a germ carried by mice, called "Salmonella typhimurium" and the "-murium" part means "from mice". Anyway, you can either treat the one bird or try to treat the entire loft. Paratyphoid symptoms from the loft point of view are pretty varied. You might see a few birds like this one (or not); you might see chicks that don't hatch (die in the shell); you might see one chick out of two that's perfectly fine while the other stays small and just doesn't grow and thrive... overall it's pretty common but you don't want it if at all possible. It's a good idea to clean the loft very thoroughly and try to seal it up so that mice can't get in or to the food however you're storing it.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

If you do have Paratyphoid in this hen, you will want to isolate her which
really should have already happened for her. You should let folks know what
meds you have if any on hand. Really, when they don't feel well, they don't
tend to fly, they find a spot and stay there not participating w/the flock a 
whole lot.

Most of the pet stores carry dog carriers that double as a good isolation
unit for a pigeon, get something and set her up w/supplementary heat and
food and water (continuous) until you get meds and treat her.

Baytril is the medication of choice though Trim/Sulpha will treat it and 
you can still treat the others for coccidiosis. You'll need to get on top 
of the treatments for the known devils in addition to making sure that
your loft is secure for the remaining birds. Mice are not the only carriers
of Paratyphoid, and you'll want to make sure for health/predator reasons
that your birds can't fall victim to either.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> * If you do have Paratyphoid in this hen, you will want to isolate her which
> really should have already happened for her. You should let folks know what
> meds you have if any on hand. Really, when they don't feel well, they don't
> tend to fly, they find a spot and stay there not participating w/the flock a
> ...





DITTO on this advice, please follow.


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Ok I have some photos of the hen, my main confusion is she is part of the flock. She flies down to eat and if I disturb them when they all take off back to their perches so does she. it is almost as if she had her wing damaged in the past and it never healed fully so she is just a slower flyer. That is the best way to describe her flight it is slow. You can see in the photos she is bright eyed and alert. She was vacianted for PMV and salmonella. She is not hunched on the floor, or puffed up on the perch. She eats drinks and preens, and her droppings are solid.

Let me know what you think, I also have no meds on hand. I did get them all some new grit, and the calcium for their water. Also No rodents can enter my aviary, and their food is kept indoors. I don't think any rodents exist here because there are about 30 stray cats that live next door.

Also keep in mind I have had all these birds for only weeks now. I have had pigeons in the past but never had much experience. There food is kept in a sealed container in my garage, and their fed on a wooden shelf off the ground. Im trying to provide as much info as possible. With her being active and alert should I really treat her just because she flies awkwardly? Please let me know and I have no prob getting meds if thats what I need. I am also in the process of buying a new home, which I will then build them all a new loft. These are brand new birds and my only pigeons. \

She seems to hold her right wing a little low.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Personally, I'd flock-treat with Baytril which you can order here:

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm

(There's more medicine for the money in the 10% Enrofloxan Liquid-100 cc's)

I was sorta' going on the idea that your other birds have already been exposed. Incidentally, vaccinating for Salmonella doesn't mean they can't get it, just that they're not as likely to die from it or that it would take out a sizable chunk of the loft. It doesn't even have to be Salmonella, might be E. coli or something else.

There's also a difference between being infected with the clinical disease to the point that the body is managing an immune response to drive it out AND the damage that the disease has done. A bird can have a bad wing from an arthritic process that's left over from such a battle that persists long after the infection has passed through. I've seen more than a few like that who never got over that even though they'd been through a course of antibiotics which should easily have wiped out the infection. So, you ain't gonna' know. 

You can isolate the bird and treat it separate from the others while you're treating them and disinfecting the loft throughout that process. Then you can put him or her back in with them. That's your call.

You might also try getting with a vet and seeing if you can get a three week course of Clindamycin specifically for this bird. That's one that's used when there is the suspicion of a bone infection (osteomyelitis) that's pretty stubborn.

Pidgey


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I would prefer a tablet form so I know the bird is getting a full dose.

would DACOXINE 4 IN 1 be a good choice? 4 in 1 tablet for individual treatment of Cocci-Canker-E-Coli and Paratyphoid.

This would be easy for me to dose the single bird. I have her isolated in my garage


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

So is the 4 in 1 ok? Or should I do just baytril


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Personally, if my bird possibly had paratyphoid, and we don't know that this is
what your hen has right now, I wouldn't use a 4-in-1. If you are trying to get by on the cheap, which I think you may be, I would use Trimethoprim Sulpha because you can treat for Coccidiosis and Paratyphoid. In fact, many use that medication to treat for Paratyphoid in babies. It is also a good medication for anaerobic bacteria as well as coccidiosis. I wouldn't treat a flock w/the biggest gun we have for an illness that is suspect and not definitively diagnosed.

You also need to isolate this bird, how in the world can you monitor food
intake, weight and droppings while she is w/the flock? PLEASE, for her
sake and the sake of the other birds, isolate her. This is common operating
procedure for a bird sick in a loft/flock setting in addition to just plain
common sense. Your birds are beautiful, but you were unable to provide
us w/a key piece of information---pictures of the droppings---because
the bird in all this time is still not isolated!

Whatever you decide, the 4-in-1 is not going to be the best choice for
your hen. You need to make a decision and order the meds today, you 
have some down time until they will reach your door.

The combination wormers are a better choice as these will get a spectrum of worms. I wouldn't rely on a 4-in1 for the treatment of worms. 

Here's a link from the resource section for the Pigeon Supply Houses:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Please note that a call might be filled more expeditiously as you can ask
over the phone for expedited mailing. Also note, that Siegel's is in Louisianna and Global's is in Georgia.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It seems like the vets and the literature say that only Baytril is good for clearing the carrier state of Salmonellosis. I don't have any experience with Dacoxine and don't have much information on Furaltadone (the active ingredient in the Dacoxine that's going after the Paratyphoid) with respect to how it handles such an infection in the body. There's a difference between eradicating the organism and ending clinical symptoms. My tendency would be to go with the Baytril.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Furaltadone used to be commonly used as a treatment for Paratyphoid. If 
this bird has articular Paratyphoid, it's sure had a chance to grow in some boils.
It may boil down to Grim's wallet. The 4-in 1 can't be used long enough to 
really treat for Paratyphoid, both Trimethoprim Sulpha and Baytril can. 

fp


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

I do my ordering with Global and get my shipments in 1-2 days usually. I am supplying a pic of the droppings, and yes I did isolate my hen as recommended.



















If you could be so kind maybe recommend a product of globals site that would work the best and not be to expensive. I am on a fixed income due to a move and a new baby. I am willing to take the best care of my birds as possible, and am not good at picking a medication with all the choices. I searched baytril on their products list and nothing came up.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Grim, thanks for isolating....that's a nice cage, one improvement would be to
put newpaper or paper towels underneath the grate so it is easier to see
if there are fluids around the droppings. Otherwise, this birds droppings look
pretty good. I'm assuming likewise that there are no offensive odors accompanying the droppings.

http://www.globalpigeon.com/productimages/fullimg/IMG1124185182.jpg

This isn't my favorite format, but the only T/P I saw at Globals. You can 
still flock treat w/the T/P and can Augment her intake w/a dropper.

fp


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## Grim (Jul 28, 2007)

Ok so when this is mixed with the drinking water how is the gallon stored? Is it ok to keep it indoors or do you need to make a new medicated gallon daily? I am going to use a gallon milk jug to insure I create the right dose and pour some into her bowl daily. 

No foul odors and she still acts normal, I sure hope this helps her out.

THANK YOU!


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