# What can be done about Vet. Care?



## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I am so tired of reading posts from frantic, caring people who have tried to get help for injured/sick birds, only to be turned away by certified Veternarians. What is wrong with these people that they will either refuse treatment, or only suggest euthanasia. I am pretty sure that all Vet schools have some courses on avian medicine so even if they do not specialize in it, they should have some idea what could be done to help. I think most people who have sought out their help were willing to pay something for the care, so it's not like it would be any different from treating any other sick or injured creature.

I know that there are many people on this forum that have accumulated experience with taking care of our feathered friends. They are very willing to help anyone coming here for advice. But unfortunately, much time is lost while people try going to the first people they think of for that help. How many birds suffer longer than nescessary because people"waste"time talking to a Vet before coming here. Thank God for PT.

I'm not sure what can be done, but something should be. If they are not willing to treat our birds, we should at least be allowed to advertise PT in their clinics and/or let the Vets know to tell people about this forum ASAP when they get a call concerning any bird.

Are there any other ideas as to what can be done? I know several others have expressed their exasperation with the people supposedly trained to take care of "all creatures, great and small".


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Many avian vets just won't treat pigeons. Some will only treat them if you lie and tell them it is your pet. My avian vet is great and could care less what the bird is. She is still learning about pigeons though, as I am the only one who has brought them to her. But she's good, and doesn't care whether they are pet or feral. Even took home for the night a feral that I had to leave over night with them. She really tries for them. I'm very lucky to have found her. Unfortunately, nothing you can do about the others.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm glad you were able to find a good one. That restores my faith a little that there has to be good Vets out there. I just feel for those that can't get the advice they need and may not know about PT or other helpful forums. 

I was afraid that I would hear that there is not much to be done. I was very lucky I guess in that I have had the privilege of working with many Vets(since my first job at 16) that took care of any animal brought to them. I guess times have changed, and not for the good.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes, it's a problem. Compounded by the fact that so many 'wildlife care' or 'wildlife rehab' facilities will also just kill an ill or injured Feral as opposed to...rehabbing 'em. I suppose they aren't a high-profile species enough for 'em to spend their time on....

My Vets in SF and also here in PDX have no problem treating Pigeons...of course, I have to pay as if a regular visit.

I think THAT is as large a problem....people, very well-meaning...just don't wanna pay the relatively pricey fees which a specialized Avian vet charges. So, unable to do so...or put off by 'having to spend $100 on a Pigeon'...they just try their best to self-treat the bird.

The lucky and smart ones land here...while other good folks, unfortunately, do not.

I like to believe 'we' are growing in numbers...I mean, look at a place like NYC...they have several Pigeon rescue resouirces just manned by volunteers and quite responsive. Also, it had come to the point where my SF vet was so familiar and comfortable with me, that when a call would come to their bird hospital regarding a found Feral...they sometimes would call me and ask if I wanted to call the person back. From that, we had a pretty good network going in SF/Bay Area...several rescuers with the ability to take on a new patient (usually one or two of us with enough of a bank account at a certain time to do so), and several vet facilities willing to treat them when necessary.

I would like to think this can happen in other localities as well....I think if it did, then you might see more Avian vets moving toward a new policy....


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jaye said:


> Yes, it's a problem. Compounded by the fact that so many 'wildlife care' or 'wildlife rehab' facilities will also just kill an ill or injured Feral as opposed to...rehabbing 'em. I suppose they aren't a high-profile species enough for 'em to spend their time on....
> 
> My Vets in SF and also here in PDX have no problem treating Pigeons...of course, I have to pay as if a regular visit.
> 
> ...


This is all good news. I am pleased to hear that this is happening. And like you said, maybe the whole concept of vets calling known, bird educated people like yourself will continue to grow. Let's hope so.

I still wish there was a way for people either just starting out, or who find an injured/sick bird, to know about the wide range of knowledge and help available on this forum. Oh well, in a perfect world!

I am a trained Vet Tech and thought i knew a lot.But I am astonished by the expertise shown in the answers given by people here and how many folks, because of the lack of support, have taken it upon themselves to learn what they needed to care for their birds. It has been really great to read the comments after people have successfully treated a bird based on what they learned from all you folks. I wish that there was better understanding from the Vets, but until that changes, thank God for all of you here. 

I guess I am done for now. Thanks for the responses. 
Dave


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

Jaye said:


> Yes, it's a problem. * Compounded by the fact that so many 'wildlife care' or 'wildlife rehab' facilities will also just kill an ill or injured Feral as opposed to...rehabbing 'em. I suppose they aren't a high-profile species enough for 'em to spend their time on....*
> 
> My Vets in SF and also here in PDX have no problem treating Pigeons...of course, I have to pay as if a regular visit.
> 
> ...


Well, since they're a non-native species (in the US)--the rehab centers probably aren't supposed to release them. Just as I'm not supposed to be releasing quaker parrots etc. Also, they get funds to care for native species. It's sad, but it seems like that would be why they don't care for pigeons.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Libis said:


> Well, since they're a non-native species (in the US)--the rehab centers probably aren't supposed to release them. Just as I'm not supposed to be releasing quaker parrots etc. Also, they get funds to care for native species. It's sad, but it seems like that would be why they don't care for pigeons.


I realize people who love other species not on the "in" list must feel the same way as we do, but this is just wrong. I know of rehabs here in the Midwest that release sparrows and other non-native bird species back to the wild. I can understand the funding problems, and the prejudice against "rats with wings", but some of these rats cost more than pedigreed dogs, or pure bred, registered horses. As stated below, the times are changing, but certainly not as fast as we would like.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

As libis has stated, the vets with wildlife care are instructed from the state to not treat non-natives. so it does depend on the vet and his or her willingness to do so even when told not too.. I have worked at a vet hospital for 20 years and have not had one not treat a pigeon.

what folks need to do is have the mindset you adopted this bird and it is you're pet now, make an appointment for you're "rock dove" (better to call it that sometimes) with the avian vet.. when done this way it is you're pet and you are resonsible for his care and for paying for it, You do not say you found it etc... you purchased it or was given as a gift.. as long as you can pay the bill they will treat YOU'RE PET. 

If you are just wanting to unload it then they can take the bird and do what they want to it.. from my experience here and working with many vets I have not come across one who could or would out right put it to sleep for no good reason, Here they would see if he could be released or adpoted since it can go either way with ferals it seems.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> As libis has stated, the vets with wildlife care are instructed from the state to *not treat non-natives. *so it does depend on the vet and his or her willingness to do so even when told not too.. I have worked at a vet hospital for 20 years and have not had one not treat a pigeon.
> 
> what folks need to do is have the mindset you adopted this bird and it is you're pet now, make an appointment for you're "rock dove" (better to call it that sometimes) with the avian vet.. when done this way it is you're pet and you are resonsible for his care and for paying for it, You do not say you found it etc... you purchased it or was given as a gift.. as long as you can pay the bill they will treat YOU'RE PET.
> 
> If you are just wanting to unload it then they can take the bird and do what they want to it.. from my experience here and working with many vets I have not come across one who could or would out right put it to sleep for no good reason, Here they would see if he could be released or adpoted since it can go either way with ferals it seems.


Why do states have such a bias? Is it a financial concern?


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Libis said:


> Well, since they're a non-native species (in the US)--the rehab centers probably aren't supposed to release them. Just as I'm not supposed to be releasing quaker parrots etc. Also, they get funds to care for native species. It's sad, but it seems like that would be why they don't care for pigeons.


What is reprehensible is the fact that they do NOT just say "no, sorry, we don't do Feral Pigeons or lost Pigeons, because......."

In the least, have the common decency to say that. 

But the ones I criticize, and they are plentiful, actually take the bird in knowing darn well that any injury or illness either requiring a significant amount of care or which may result in a non "110%" recovery (read: most injuries and illnesses)...fail to communicate their kill policy...and let the person believe they have done the best and only thing (and no other option was really reasonable).


While, as we know, there are usually several options. But as Almondman points out, one of the most obvious is often hard to come by (vet).
Charis and others put together probably the BEST Pigeon treatment resource list on the internet. Places which will be honest with you, not confiscate, not kill on their own volition.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/f8-pigeon-resources
Of course, in a lot of places help is few and far between, but I hope that lists like this, worldwide.... also begin to grow as folks find more trustworthy places.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

almondman said:


> Why do states have such a bias? Is it a financial concern?


I don't know, perhaps to protect native species?, I think it is outdated esp for pigeons, there are reasons to be concerned about invasive species, we like pigeons so we are bias.. but make it one of the those ugly carp fish and people are all hip on getting rid of it or not letting it get a hold or spread so it won't damge native species.. so I guess people pick and choose which ones they help and which ones they want to not help, same goes for plants. 

As said, if one wants to help a feral they have found, then, give it a name and call it your own even if you are going to release it, pay for the appointment and vet's time and help the bird..no one is stopping anyone from treating them as a pet, You just need to be responsible for it, not expect a freebee everytime one finds a feral pigeon that needs meds and want him back...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> I don't know, perhaps to protect native species?, I think it is outdated esp for pigeons, there are reasons to be concerned about invasive species, we like pigeons so we are bias.. but make it one of the those ugly carp fish and people are all hip on getting rid of it or not letting it get a hold or spread so it won't damge native species.. so I guess people pick and choose which ones they help and which ones they want to not help, same goes for plants.
> 
> As said, if one wants to help a feral they have found, then, give it a name and call it your own even if you are going to release it, pay for the appointment and vet's time and help the bird..no one is stopping anyone from treating them as a pet, You just need to be responsible for it, not expect a freebee everytime one finds a feral pigeon that needs meds and want him back...


I see your point about our bias towards pigeons. But in the over all big picture, weren't the original rock pigeons brought over as a food source? Much like breeds of cattle, chickens, etc. etc.  I know I'm nit pickin this to death, and realize I stand a snow balls chance in Hades of changing the situation anytime soon, but.... Oh well, it is what it is! "We can only hope for a better tomorrow"


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Just finished reading the Pigeonangels list. This is a very big help. Thanks to Charis for putting it together. Maybe we need a sticky thread with this as the first post, and then a list of members that have been so helpful to others. I can think of many names that should be on the list, but won't post them here for their privacy since I can't speak for them. What do others think? The list with posted names or just leave it as it is where the posters ask the questions to be answered when read.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

almondman said:


> I see your point about our bias towards pigeons. But in the over all big picture, weren't the original rock pigeons brought over as a food source? Much like breeds of cattle, chickens, etc. etc.  I know I'm nit pickin this to death, and realize I stand a snow balls chance in Hades of changing the situation anytime soon, but.... Oh well, it is what it is! "We can only hope for a better tomorrow"


I guess that is why they were brought here?, and maybe other reasons too, but things escape and or get/let lose. Im sure they did not have protective rules about it long ago as they were only trying to survive.

again....
either way as said, there is treatment for pigeons, one just has to make it a pet and give him/her a name and call an avian vet preferably and they get the care they need. so pigeons are being treated plenty under a vets care when going about it this way.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Al lot of avian vets won't treat pigeons, whether it is your pet or not. Some, as was mentioned will only treat pigeon pets. Some don't care. You just have to find one if you can who will. The problem is that when someone finds a pigeon, it isn't normally someone who would know an avian vet who does treat. They can be hard to find. I know it isn't fair, but really nothing much you can do. Also, when most States do not want vets to treat them, it's not pigoens really, they aren't supposed to treat any wild birds.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> Just finished reading the Pigeonangels list. This is a very big help. Thanks to Charis for putting it together. Maybe we need a sticky thread with this as the first post, and then a list of members that have been so helpful to others. *I can think of many names that should be on the list, but won't post them here for their privacy since I can't speak for them.* What do others think? The list with posted names or just leave it as it is where the posters ask the questions to be answered when read.


Not sure what you mean? If you know of other vets, licensed rehabbers or rescue centers, I'm sure Charis would be glad to know about them. 

( For the UK, this is the list which is kept up to date by the originator: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/rescuecentres.htm )


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Al lot of avian vets won't treat pigeons, whether it is your pet or not. Some, as was mentioned will only treat pigeon pets. Some don't care. You just have to find one if you can who will. The problem is that when someone finds a pigeon, it isn't normally someone who would know an avian vet who does treat. They can be hard to find. I know it isn't fair, but really nothing much you can do. Also, when most States do not want vets to treat them, it's not pigoens really, they aren't supposed to treat any wild birds.


From my experience here, they do treat wildlife, we have a fund for it and lisenced vets and techs and assistants who have gone through the training, sometimes one can call a vet to get one of these folks's contact, the wild bird does not leave the clinic unless it is stable and ready for a rehabber to take it home to finish his care and release the proper way.. now this is with wild birds, pigeons fall between the cracks becasue they are considerd feral or non native.. perhaps even nuisance species..which IMO needs to be rectified becasue obviously they are getting along fine in most places without causing trouble...so I guess these poor souls fit in no catigory and some get confused on what to do. Im not sure if this has anthing to do with the way our clinic handles pigeons but we do and in the past have always had female vets...perhaps they have a heart where others do not in other areas??, iam only familiar with my clinic and the others in my area. one only has to do a bit or looking to find an avian vet to take you're "pet" to, reguardless of what kind of bird it is, wildlife though they will or have to surrender it to the care of the vet hospital if brought in...a pigeon does not esp if it is one's pet of course it is treated just like any other bird coming in for treatment. If you can not find a vet to treat you're pet pigeon then keep looking.. if a no go..then you have to do you're best with the products they sell online and advice from this site which is very helpful!


just a side note about treating wildlife..a sea turtle got accupunture here before.. that was the biggest wildlife come through yet..lol.. she was released the next season..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> From my experience here, they do treat wildlife, we have a fund for it and lisenced vets and techs and assistants who have gone through the training, sometimes one can call a vet to get one of these folks's contact, the wild bird does not leave the clinic unless it is stable and ready for a rehabber to take it home to finish his care and release the proper way.. now this is with wild birds, pigeons fall between the cracks becasue they are considerd feral or non native.. perhaps even nuisance species..which IMO needs to be rectified becasue obviously they are getting along fine in most places without causing trouble...so I guess these poor souls fit in no catigory and some get confused on what to do. Im not sure if this has anthing to do with the way our clinic handles pigeons but we do and in the past have always had female vets...perhaps they have a heart where others do not in other areas??, iam only familiar with my clinic and the others in my area. one only has to do a bit or looking to find an avian vet to take you're "pet" to, reguardless of what kind of bird it is, wildlife though they will or have to surrender it to the care of the vet hospital if brought in...a pigeon does not esp if it is one's pet of course it is treated just like any other bird coming in for treatment. If you can not find a vet to treat you're pet pigeon then keep looking.. if a no go..then you have to do you're best with the products they sell online and advice from this site which is very helpful!
> 
> 
> just a side note about treating wildlife..a sea turtle got accupunture here before.. that was the biggest wildlife come through yet..lol.. she was released the next season..




It's nice that they will treat wild birds. But lots of places will tell you that they are not allowed to treat ANY wild bird.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Not sure what you mean? If you know of other vets, licensed rehabbers or rescue centers, I'm sure Charis would be glad to know about them.
> 
> ( For the UK, this is the list which is kept up to date by the originator: http://www.pigeonrescue.co.uk/rescuecentres.htm )


I was referring to the privacy of the posters on PT, not for Vets/rehabbers per se. I was suggesting having Charis's list, and now yours, posted in a Sticky thread along with the names of people on PT who are experienced Vets/vet techs/rehabbers, etc., or just the knowledgeable people who have learned through experience so that all newbies to pigeon care would have a central thread location to get direct Emergency help with their needs rather than posting and having to wait for a response. Maybe the first thread on top of the page!?!? They would have direct access to these people, either through PM or e-mail. These people would have to volunteer for something like this, so that is why I didn't mention any particular names. I realize there are already several threads available, but if this was posted at the top of the page, the first thread that people see, it might speed up the process rather than trying to pick the right thread from further done the page. 

I do not have any new names to be added to Charis's list.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> It's nice that they will treat wild birds. But lots of places will tell you that they are not allowed to treat ANY wild bird.


I guess it would depend on the interest of the clinic itself..we have allot of people interested and willing to go through the training for it so I suppose that is what makes the difference..some vets only cater to small domestic pets like just cats and dogs and perhaps pocket pets and birds if you are lucky!...


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> I guess it would depend on the interest of the clinic itself..we have allot of people interested and willing to go through the training for it so I suppose that is what makes the difference..some vets only cater to small domestic pets like just cats and dogs and perhaps pocket pets and birds if you are lucky!...


Do you think your interest in pigeons coaxed the others into wanting the training and to help out? Are there other fanciers at your clinic? Or are they just good people that believe all creatures deserve to be treated?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I guess it would depend on the interest of the clinic itself..we have allot of people interested and willing to go through the training for it so I suppose that is what makes the difference..some vets only cater to small domestic pets like just cats and dogs and perhaps pocket pets and birds if you are lucky!...


Gee, there must be a lot of nice people there who care. Unfortunately lots don't care.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> Gee, there must be a lot of nice people there who care. Unfortunately lots don't care.


well I hate to make assumptions on people I do not know of caring or not caring.. it really depends on how the owner or director wants to run their hospital and what they feel comfortable with and have extra money for. some clinics do not have avian expertise and would not do a good job of it anyway.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> well I hate to make assumptions on people I do not know of caring or not caring.. it really depends on how the owner or director wants to run their hospital and what they feel comfortable with and have extra money for. some clinics do not have avian expertise and would not do a good job of it anyway.



I was talking only about avian vets. Most do not take pigeons, and do not take other wild birds. Some states mandate that wild birds are not treated, others are not. It is then up to the vet.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> I was talking only about avian vets. Most do not take pigeons, and do not take other wild birds. Some states mandate that wild birds are not treated, others are not. It is then up to the vet.


I have never taken a survey of who does and does not see pigeons around the country, but it must be a fact around you're parts and others if you know this as a true statement, here in VA it is not. as far as I have seen, most states do have wildlife rehabbers wether they work for a vet or not. I find it hard to believe an avian vet would turn down a pet bird(not wildlife) reguardless of what kind of speices it is, as long as it has an owner who is willing to pay for their services. I can see them not taking in found ferals where there is no ownership. That is when the rehabber can be of help I would assume.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

What's true, is that some vets, that treat birds, will not treat pigeons at all and that's why I decided to develop a list of the ones that will.
The average person that finds a hurt/ill pigeon, hasn't a clue where to find a vet that will treat pigeons. They don't even know the questions to ask.It's easy to give someone a list of avian vets in there area or rehabbers but the list is pretty worthless if the person has do make a lot of calls and still can't find help or worse can only find the kind of help more that willing to euthanize.
The thing that is different about Matilda's List, is that either myself or another has made a personal contact,via phone, with everyone on the list to find out competence level and if the contact is genuine. It was my intension to annually contact every vet and rehabber on the list to make sure they should still be on the list. I haven't done that and I also have many contacts to add. I think it's great for all of you to use Matilda's List. That's why I developed it.
A word of caution though, do confirm the contacts before you refer the as I cannot guarantee all the parties or policies are still the same as when the original contact was made. Things do change and people move on.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> What's true, is that some vets, that treat birds, will not treat pigeons at all and that's why I decided to develop a list of the ones that will.
> The average person that finds a hurt/ill pigeon, hasn't a clue where to find a vet that will treat pigeons. They don't even know the questions to ask.It's easy to give someone a list of avian vets in there area or rehabbers but the list is pretty worthless if the person has do make a lot of calls and still can't find help or worse can only find the kind of help more that willing to euthanize.
> The thing that is different about Matilda's List, is that either myself or another has made a personal contact,via phone, with everyone on the list to find out competence level and if the contact is genuine. It was my intension to annually contact every vet and rehabber on the list to make sure they should still be on the list. I haven't done that and I also have many contacts to add. I think it's great for all of you to use Matilda's List. That's why I developed it.
> A word of caution though, do confirm the contacts before you refer the as I cannot guarantee all the parties or policies are still the same as when the original contact was made. Things do change and people move on.


Charis, do you think it can make a difference if people with a pigeon/s.(.found or bought as a pet) that may need medical help with it would say it is their pet and even have it a name and try to make an appointment with an avian vet that way?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Michelle...it just depends on the vet. Some won't treat them no matter what. That being said, there still are some wonderful, knowledgeable vets and rehabbers many of whom will treat a feral pigeon free of charge or for a reduced fee.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> Charis, do you think it can make a difference if people with a pigeon/s.(.found or bought as a pet) that may need medical help with it would say it is their pet and even have it a name and try to make an appointment with an avian vet that way?


I'm not Charis (she's prettier and far more charming)...but...I always recommend that. I always tell someone to do that. 

"Tell the Vet that the Pigeon is yours...or say that you are loft-sitting for your friend and one of their birds got sick or loose or attacked."

John, regarding Almond's thought...if I get what he was saying....I think he was suggesting we have a list HERE of PT members who would be willing to help out as a local resource or intermediary of some sort.

I have to say, there have been times here where I have also thought it'd be VERY handy to have members listed by Geographical location. Because I dunno how many times I have come upon a thread where someone somewhere posts something urgent...and I am trying for the life of me to remember the members who happen to live in the same City or area !

I also have had a number of instances where (thankfully) another member contacted me saying "Go see this thread, this person just posted and is in your town, maybe you can help ?"
This is actually great, because I have met a few folks in this way and then, getting back to what I was saying in my initial reply to Almond's thread....you do that, and you start to expand the local 'rescuer network', so to speak. Maybe most folks would not be interested, maybe they just saved the Pigeon because they are good people and didn't want to see an innocent creature harmed or suffer...but I have also found that some of them were very interested in me getting back to them and letting them know how their buddy was doing. A few even joined me on their release....

I think that'd be nice, the idea of the Rescue Members List. Just a list of volunteer rescue members, listed by location. Of course, with their permission.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Charis said:


> It's easy to give someone a list of avian vets in there area or rehabbers but the list is pretty worthless if the person has do make a lot of calls and still can't find help or worse can only find the kind of help more that willing to euthanize.
> The thing that is different about Matilda's List, is that either myself or another has made a personal contact,via phone, with everyone on the list to find out competence level and if the contact is genuine.
> It was my intention to annually contact every vet and rehabber on the list to make sure they should still be on the list. I haven't done that and I also have many contacts to add. I think it's great for all of you to use Matilda's List. That's why I developed it.


It is one of the most brilliant and useful 'net resources I have ever seen. Amazing, really.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> From my experience here, they do treat wildlife, we have a fund for it and lisenced vets and techs and assistants who have gone through the training, sometimes one can call a vet to get one of these folks's contact, the wild bird does not leave the clinic unless it is stable and ready for a rehabber to take it home to finish his care and release the proper way.. now this is with wild birds, pigeons fall between the cracks becasue they are considerd feral or non native.. perhaps even nuisance species..*which IMO needs to be rectified becasue obviously they are getting along fine in most places without causing trouble...*so I guess these poor souls fit in no catigory and some get confused on what to do. Im not sure if this has anthing to do with the way our clinic handles pigeons but we do and in the past have always had female vets...perhaps they have a heart where others do not in other areas??, iam only familiar with my clinic and the others in my area. one only has to do a bit or looking to find an avian vet to take you're "pet" to, reguardless of what kind of bird it is, wildlife though they will or have to surrender it to the care of the vet hospital if brought in...a pigeon does not esp if it is one's pet of course it is treated just like any other bird coming in for treatment. If you can not find a vet to treat you're pet pigeon then keep looking.. if a no go..then you have to do you're best with the products they sell online and advice from this site which is very helpful!
> 
> 
> just a side note about treating wildlife..a sea turtle got accupunture here before.. that was the biggest wildlife come through yet..lol.. she was released the next season..


Especially because, honestly, they greatly support the raptor species (as food) that the feds seem to be constantly worried about. (Granted they are gorgeous and do deserve some form of protection.) I mean, we killed off the Passenger pigeon, which was likely a huge raptor food source and now they use this one. I doubt the feds will ever see that in a way that would have pigeons added to the list of birds that get funding for treatment...


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Jaye said:


> It is one of the most brilliant and useful 'net resources I have ever seen. Amazing, really.



Thank you, Jaye.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> Charis, do you think it can make a difference if people with a pigeon/s.(.found or bought as a pet) that may need medical help with it would say it is their pet and even have it a name and try to make an appointment with an avian vet that way?




spiritwings, I know it's hard for you to believe that there are MANY avian vets out there that will not treat a pigeon, even if it is a pet. It's hard to imagine, because you don't run into it there, and because it's also hard to imagine that a bird vet won't even look at a pigeon. It's unbelievable, I know. But in calling the different avian vets around, the question that was put to them was "Will they treat a_ pet_ pigeon?" Then they were asked about whether or not they would treat ferals. Many said they would not see a pigeon, even if it were a pet. Fewer said that they would treat a pet pigeon, but not a found pigeon, or wild pigeon. Most simply said no. Of those people listed on Matilda's List, so so many avian vets were called, and out of all of them, so few were able to be added to that list. I know it's unbelievable, but it's true. I think it's very sad that an avian vet who should care about all birds wouldn't help an injured pigeon in need. And I can understand how hard it is to believe that.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Since we have 6 or 7 of the people I was talking about, would the idea of setting up a Sticky thread "Rescue Members List" (I like this title) have any merit? Again, start off the thread with the two lists, Charis's and the one that John_D posted, and then list members that are willing to be contacted as first responders.


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## Libis (Oct 8, 2010)

almondman said:


> Since we have 6 or 7 of the people I was talking about, would the idea of setting up a Sticky thread "Rescue Members List" (I like this title) have any merit? Again, start off the thread with the two lists, Charis's and the one that John_D posted, and then list members that are willing to be contacted as first responders.


That would be very helpful. Especially if listed by state and city.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Libis said:


> That would be very helpful. Especially if listed by state and city.


I think that would be the most useful...geographically listed.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Michelle...it just depends on the vet. Some won't treat them no matter what. That being said, there still are some wonderful, knowledgeable vets and rehabbers many of whom will treat a feral pigeon free of charge or for a reduced fee.


I'am going to ask our new medical director which is an Avian vet the reason another avian vet would not treat a client's pet bird only because it was a pigeon, and see what her opinion is about the subject and post what she has said.

I hope this non treatment of pigeons is not being confused with found feral's that people want to drop off.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> Since we have 6 or 7 of the people I was talking about, would the idea of setting up a Sticky thread "Rescue Members List" (I like this title) have any merit? Again, start off the thread with the two lists, Charis's and the one that John_D posted, and then list members that are willing to be contacted as first responders.


See no problem with physically setting it up. In fact, it could be a forum on its own in the 'Resources' category, along with 'Resource Information' and 'Resource Submissions'. That way, it would immediately stand out to people logging in.

Any useful (and up to date) info currently within the 'Resource Information' forum could also be moved in there. It would only be updated by mods/admins, though - if it's just left open, you can absolutely guarantee that all kinds of stuff will get wrongly posted in it!

Then need to agree on how much personal info shopuld be in an individual members list (for volunteers). Full info, just user names and invitation to PM these people, or whatever.

For info, there actually was a list of vets, rehabbers and individuals accessible from the main page of the site. I thnk Terry may have kicked it off, but it hasn't been kept up to date and now (thanks to Keebali) we can't get in to update it. Feel free to check out

http://www.pigeons.biz/pigeons/prd.htm

but don't believe too much of what you see.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

My thoughts only - volunteers should pipe in with theirs.

Should it be under the Pigeon Crisis - Emergency? More people might look there. Just a thought. Unless the title could be in bold. I think let the mods/admin. pick the place. I thoroughly agree that they should be the only ones to update. Too much other stuff would only detract from it's purpose. Would it be possible for one or two responsible "volunteer" to have access to help keep things up to date? Maybe this is not possible due to constraints with forum programming.

I think that only the name and a way to PM, visitor message, direct e-mail should be available unless others here would like them divided by state, province, or.... Direct e-mail should be with the first responders permission only.

Possible format ????

Emergency Rescue/Care Forum

Directions for forum use - 

Directions for contacting First Responders or Rescue Members (choose one)

A. Charis's list
B. John_D list
C. John_D second list
D. First Responders List or Rescue Members List (choose one)- by City, State
E. Disclaimer about using information, not holding PT/volunteers responsible for care offered, etc?????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> I'am going to ask our new medical director which is an Avian vet the reason another avian vet would not treat a client's pet bird only because it was a pigeon, and see what her opinion is about the subject and post what she has said.
> 
> I* hope this non treatment of pigeons is not being confused with found feral's that people want to drop off.*


It is not. That is one of the questions I have asked. The vets that won't treat feral pigeons, won't treat them under any circumstances. Besides, if there is reluctance or bias, I don't want them on my list because I view them as non-trustable.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> My thoughts only - volunteers should pipe in with theirs.
> 
> Should it be under the Pigeon Crisis - Emergency? More people might look there. Just a thought. ......


Good thinkin'! Yep, makes sense to me - it can be the first bold heading'link within that category, i.e., above 'I found a pigeon or dove - now what?'


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Who wants to be a volunteer? We should get a list together that includes those with the most knowledge and experience. These people should express the thoughts on how much info they want to be given out. Then they should give any personal ideas that would make the thread better. 

Then we go from there about setting up the actual site. Did you say that the mods/admins will actually make up the site?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> Who wants to be a volunteer? We should get a list together that includes those with the most knowledge and experience. These people should express the thoughts on how much info they want to be given out. Then they should give any personal ideas that would make the thread better.
> 
> Then we go from there about setting up the actual site. Did you say that the mods/admins will actually make up the site?


Not sure what you mean about 'the site' (?) We can create a new (sub) forum as mentioned above, and put our links / lists in there. Don't see as there's anything else to be done - well, aside from the content of course


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> It is not. That is one of the questions I have asked. The vets that won't treat feral pigeons, won't treat them under any circumstances. Besides, if there is reluctance or bias, I don't want them on my list because I view them as non-trustable.


I did talk to Dr. Smith and she said from her experience from the Ohio area and now here, she said "pigeons were treated just as any other pet bird and would be surpirsed to know or hear of an avian vet who would turn down a bird just for is species in this day and age, and it does not make sense..unless they just do not want to help birds and make a living and get paid, which I think they do". she said as an exotics/avian vet she will see anything that comes through the door."

Can you send me the list or names of these Dr's who will not see a pet pigeon?


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Sorry...I can't send you lists of the ones that won't because as soon as they said no, I ditched them. I saw no point in keeping a list of the no's as the important list is the yes'.
I have had some heart lifting conversations and others that were not so heart lifting. All in all, the experience has been quite insightful and vets/rehabbers are no different that the general public, biased and believing false information about pigeons.
Of course I would encourage you to start calling around to see if you can come up with more that are willing. *That would be a huge help.* If you look on the list, you will see some vacant states that I could either find no one or didn't have time to conduct a search of vets that treat birds and then make the calls and ask questions.

I wish they were all like your Dr. Smith and the other wonderful vets included on Matilda's List.
By the way, I don't think your Dr. Smith is on the list. I would love top have her contact info or any others you might know or she might know, *that have experience treating pigeons and are willing to do so.*
If anyone else has a vet or rehabber to add, doing so could save a life and I would love to know about them.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Not sure what you mean about 'the site' (?) We can create a new (sub) forum as mentioned above, and put our links / lists in there. Don't see as there's anything else to be done - well, aside from the content of course


I'm sorry, of course I meant to say forum. Selecting the volunteers. Writing a disclaimer(?), if you feel one is needed. Whatever else the volunteers feel is needed.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Charis said:


> Sorry...I can't send you lists of the ones that won't because as soon as they said no, I ditched them. I saw no point in keeping a list of the no's as the important list is the yes'.
> I have had some heart lifting conversations and others that were not so heart lifting. All in all, the experience has been quite insightful and vets/rehabbers are no different that the general public, biased and believing false information about pigeons.
> Of course I would encourage you to start calling around to see if you can come up with more that are willing. *That would be a huge help.* If you look on the list, you will see some vacant states that I could either find no one or didn't have time to conduct a search of vets that treat birds and then make the calls and ask questions.
> 
> ...


Yes of course she needs to be added as well as our clinic..how do I do that?..

I so understand not having the names of the ones who would dismiss a pigeon as that is the opposite of what you are trying to do.

What I want to do for my own self because I have worked with a vet for 20 years is learn why, and so I will do my own investigation and perhaps bring more of this to light esp if theyare affliated with an Association or a group. They should explain the discrimination, and it needs to be brought to light. If you can even remember one out of memory I sure would like to call and inquire , but I understand if you do not. thanks for the information on the subject as a whole.


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## abluechipstock (Nov 26, 2010)

my vet will treat them if you're willing to pay, guess that's better than just saying no


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

abluechipstock said:


> my vet will treat them if you're willing to pay, guess that's better than just saying no


We are trying to set up a list of vets that will accept pigeons. Would you mind sending your vets name, city, state to Charis by PM? If you do, thanks.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Even in the UK, where the Columba livia species is native, it isn't easy to find a vet who will deal with them (and not just put 'em down).

We have a rather odd situation here, because genuine wild rock doves (found only in a few somewhat remote parts of Scotland) are classed as a legally fully protected species of wild bird, whereas feral pigeons are not so classified.

Some vets in our experience just won't treat birds. Some will treat any wildlife, some exclude pigeons and doves (seeing them as nuisance birds). 

From what I've found, there are 'general' vets who are willing to deal with pigeons but will say upfront that they are not greatly knowledgeable about bird problems and advise an avian vet is best. We sometimes go to one who has learned more about pigeons since we've taken them there - the same surgery has sometimes passed onto us a found pigeon or dove for ongoing care. 

There are rather few registered avian & exotics vets (i.e., with the specialized training and experience) around, but I do have one about 45 minutes drive away which will even take pigeon in-patients, and near Cynthia we have a vet who deals with the local racing pigeon community, so we are quite fortunate. 

Some of our UK posters have had success with finding the right vet, some have found no vet help. Unless we know of the vet ourselves or from another UK member, we will advise people not to just hand over a bird and to always check (whether vet or rescue facility) what their policy is. I have a bird hospital not too far away and though they have been of help in the past, they will not return a pigeon which is found to be unreleasable to it's finder, even though it can be given a home.

So, whichever side of the pond, it pays to be careful if not a little paranoid, I think.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

John...just wanna say I appreciate your receptiveness to this idea. 

Almondman, great of you to be kicking it off....

In retrospect it is sorta amazing that it wasn't thought of before....


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Jaye said:


> John...just wanna say I appreciate your receptiveness to this idea.
> 
> Almondman, great of you to be kicking it off....
> 
> *In retrospect it is sorta amazing that it wasn't thought of before....*


Problem was, we did have a list but as I touched on earlier, we have had no way to maintain it since Keebali took over. So, let's go for it 

I'll set up new section for it tomorrow when I'm more awake and run it by you guys


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## honeyrobber (Apr 28, 2011)

Admit I did not read the whole thread. Pigeons are a non-native and wildlife rehabs that are state run work with native species only. I feel all rehabbed pigeons should not be released into the wild again, but that is a personal preference. Please do not release quaker parrots into the wild as they are taking over nest of other cavity dwellers like owls and wood peckers. They are more of a threat to native species than pigeons.

I have a good heart and have taken in different animals for rehabbing. Raised a fawn hit by a hay mower. Turned in a downed hawk to wild life officers as I knew it was over my dealing to get back going. Vets around here will try and help you with a parrot and even farm poultry but they know little and most of the time tell you to put it down. Sometimes that is the best course, others it is their lack of knowledge they have for birds. I have to go 50 miles to get to a vet that knows about birds even though it is not their specialty. I got a onway drive of 80-150 miles depending on which avian vet I can get into when I needed one for parrots.

Until feral pigeons are seen by the majority of people as clean friendly birds you are not going to change a vets mind either. They look at the feral and ask why would anyone help such an animal.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Jaye said:


> John...just wanna say I appreciate your receptiveness to this idea.
> 
> Almondman, great of you to be kicking it off....
> 
> In retrospect it is sorta amazing that it wasn't thought of before....


I know there are several great threads/forums going already, but by the responses seen here several posters saw that there was a need to pull it all together. I think PT has consistently been the best forum for getting help in caring for injured/sick birds. This is hopefully a way to fine tune an already great resource. 

John_D - I also appreciate your giving the go ahead. Thanks, Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Problem was, we did have a list but as I touched on earlier, we have had no way to maintain it since Keebali took over. So, let's go for it
> 
> I'll set up new section for it tomorrow when I'm more awake and run it by you guys


Thanks John. That's very much appreciated. Whenever it's convenient. Dave


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> Even in the UK, where the Columba livia species is native, it isn't easy to find a vet who will deal with them (and not just put 'em down).
> 
> We have a rather odd situation here, because genuine wild rock doves (found only in a few somewhat remote parts of Scotland) are classed as a legally fully protected species of wild bird, whereas feral pigeons are not so classified.


That's very interesting John, I had been wondering about that so I appreciate hearing what you have to say about the situation there. I find it sad that Rock Pigeons could lose their protected species classification based on coming to a city to live (in their own country!), as opposed to being tucked away out of sight on remote cliffs. Goes to show that bigotry towards this species runs very deep, when they can be deemed `feral' in their native home.


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

honeyrobber said:


> Admit I did not read the whole thread. Pigeons are a non-native and wildlife rehabs that are state run work with native species only. I feel all rehabbed pigeons should not be released into the wild again, but that is a personal preference. Please do not release quaker parrots into the wild as they are taking over nest of other cavity dwellers like owls and wood peckers. They are more of a threat to native species than pigeons.
> 
> I have a good heart and have taken in different animals for rehabbing. Raised a fawn hit by a hay mower. Turned in a downed hawk to wild life officers as I knew it was over my dealing to get back going. Vets around here will try and help you with a parrot and even farm poultry but they know little and most of the time tell you to put it down. Sometimes that is the best course, others it is their lack of knowledge they have for birds. I have to go 50 miles to get to a vet that knows about birds even though it is not their specialty. I got a onway drive of 80-150 miles depending on which avian vet I can get into when I needed one for parrots.
> 
> Until feral pigeons are seen by the majority of people as clean friendly birds you are not going to change a vets mind either. They look at the feral and ask why would anyone help such an animal.


A fair amount of generalizations there, and some comments which are highly debatable...but I won't create a ruckus on this thread, as it is resulting in something very, very positive...other than noting that a lot of wild 'care' facilities are not state-run at all, but rather private non-profits...so they can really have some flexibility in their policies. Also, most established urban wildlife is actually 'non-native'...having been introduced from other regions. Yet they are not treated as poorly or disrespectfully as Pigeons.
Again, I have no problem with a wildlife rehab place saying "we don't take 'em"...my problem is with them not divulging their likely intent to kill 'em as opposed to treat and rehab 'em. A person wanting to help has the right to know those policies before surrendering the animal.

As far as Vets...if someone is willing to come in with an injured Feral and pay for the visit...there is no guideline which says an avian vet should refuse that potential client. Again, these are private practices...There is no 'we don't treat non-natives', because of COURSE they do !

So, any that turn away a Pigeon in need...I have very little respect for. Doesn't have much to do with Ferals being 'unclean', IMHO. An educated, trained vet should know better...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> That's very interesting John, I had been wondering about that so I appreciate hearing what you have to say about the situation there. I find it sad that Rock Pigeons could lose their protected species classification based on coming to a city to live (in their own country!), as opposed to being tucked away out of sight on remote cliffs. Goes to show that bigotry towards this species runs very deep, when they can be deemed `feral' in their native home.


I feel for you guys in AU even more...it is a veritable minefield for you folks to find a trustworthy vet who would treat a Feral....


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Jaye said:


> I feel for you guys in AU even more...it is a veritable minefield for you folks to find a trustworthy vet who would treat a Feral....


Thanks heaps Jaye, yeah its horrible here. Even if you can find someone to help, incompetence is a major problem after that. Rehab groups will lie about their `good intentions' to take the pigeon from you, but they just kill them. I have come to believe its because they get funding based on the number of rescues they take in, even if they have no intention of helping. 

Or maybe I am paranoid, but there was this one time when I took in 3 sick pigeons very early in their sickness, probably just basic canker and enteritis which I know I can fix now. I called my local bird rehab group and they said ` sure we look after feral pigeons, they deserve help too etc blah.' So I handed them over. I followed up and discovered that they spent 3-4 days in the back of vans with no food or water, and travelled to a zoo (in another city) known to euthanise feral species. The person I spoke to said they looked stunned and probably all hit a wall flying off from a predator, and most of the pigeons they see are sick because of this. I did a huge amount of tactful follow up to get this info. Two died in transit, one was euthanised upon arrival for being feral. I learned it from the vet nurse who happened to love pigeons and often took fancy breeds home instead of letting them be killed at her office. Its sad they died, but so nice to know she does what she can there for pigeons.

And vets cost a fortune here; I saw the figure of $100 vet bill per sick pigeon mentioned earlier, but for me I have never walked out of vets office spending under $500 for a crop swab and fecal, plus basic meds. So, I have tried to learn as much as I can from this web site and people like you.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Wow, this is great.....How'd I miss this thread? I've been a vet tech for roughly 38 years, and have found that most vets in MY area will not treat or even look at pigeons. If it is a 'pet', most won't see it ......reason being - 'lack of knowledge'. There is 2 (supposedly) Avain vets in my area. 'My' experience with these vets was not favorable. Years ago (before I joined this forum), I was loosing youngsters- symptoms: crooked beaks, trouble swallowing, then death. 1st avian vet had no idea what the problem was, he prescribed triple sulfa. I was still loosing my young birds. At my wits end, I found PT, and quickly learned from here that it was Canker and how to treat!!! So much for 'that' avian vet 
I had another older bird later on that I had been treating and just not getting better, or would get better then relapse. I took her to the 2nd avian vet and told her I was concerned that it was 'chronic paratyphoid'. Her response was 'I'm not familiar with that'. I left 
Any birds that come into my clinic (or our sister hospital in NH), the doctors ask me if I will take it in. If I'm not there, they will refer people to the Wildlife Center. If I am there, I take the birds. If its a species beyond my care (raptors, owls, etc) I take it to the wildlife center. 
So I think a list is a great idea!
It took me over an hour to catch up and read this whole thread, so now I have to go get ready for work, but I will be back to respond more


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Wow, this is great.....How'd I miss this thread? I've been a vet tech for roughly 38 years, and have found that most vets in MY area will not treat or even look at pigeons. If it is a 'pet', most won't see it ......reason being - 'lack of knowledge'. There is 2 (supposedly) Avain vets in my area. 'My' experience with these vets was not favorable. Years ago (before I joined this forum), I was loosing youngsters- symptoms: crooked beaks, trouble swallowing, then death. 1st avian vet had no idea what the problem was, he prescribed triple sulfa. I was still loosing my young birds. At my wits end, I found PT, and quickly learned from here that it was Canker and how to treat!!! So much for 'that' avian vet
> I had another older bird later on that I had been treating and just not getting better, or would get better then relapse. I took her to the 2nd avian vet and told her I was concerned that it was 'chronic paratyphoid'. Her response was 'I'm not familiar with that'. I left
> Any birds that come into my clinic (or our sister hospital in NH), the doctors ask me if I will take it in. If I'm not there, they will refer people to the Wildlife Center. If I am there, I take the birds. If its a species beyond my care (raptors, owls, etc) I take it to the wildlife center.
> So I think a list is a great idea!
> It took me over an hour to catch up and read this whole thread, so now I have to go get ready for work, but I will be back to respond more


so the two avian vets in you're area did see you 're pigeon/s as a client....not that it worked out..but at least they did not turn you away because it was a pigeon.. that is what Iam talking about. I see where a regular dog and cat vet will not see them.. I want to know why an AVIAN/EXOTICS VET would not see a potential client's pet pigeon. I know there are poor vets out there..seen a few myself avian or not. so far I have not heard of an AVIAN VET story where the person was turned down because their pet bird happens to be a pigeon. wish more would speak up and tell where the practice was or is. Im not here to bash not very good vets just because they did not have a clue..at least they were willing to see a pigeon and try.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Currently, we now have a new forum section under 'Pigeon Crisis - Emergency!' called 'Emergency Resources & Assistance' with description under it.

There's a couple of threads:

* One would contain the links to Charis's lists(s), and to the UK specific list. 

* One would be for volunteers, first responders (or whatever they'll be known as).

At present, no names, links, details are in there - just the outline. We can work on the actual content.

The name of the forum is negotiable - just made it up as I went along.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Currently, we now have a new forum section under 'Pigeon Crisis - Emergency!' called 'Emergency Resources & Assistance' with description under it.
> 
> There's a couple of threads:
> 
> ...


Thank you John. This is terrific. I like your title and the layout for the forum.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Can you go ahead and place Matilda's list and the UK list in the appropriate spot? And I sent you a PM with two names that are willing to volunteer. Can they go in too, or should we wait to see how many others we get? Do you feel that we need a disclaimer at all to protect PT and volunteers.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Can we see if we get more names for 'volunteers'?

On that, though I expect any 'volunteers' to be our more experienced and longstanding members, we do need to be careful in case people volunteer who we really don't know well, maybe prone to being more enthusiastic than knowledgeable.

As far as disclaimer goes, well, I guess that would apply to the whole site, as advice is offered primarily by individuals. I think we are covered by the various rules about people being responsible for their own posts, etc.


Have put in the links http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f113/vets-and-rescue-facilities-listings-59975.html


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

... and thanks Dave - glad you started kicking this idea around


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

John_D said:


> Can we see if we get more names for 'volunteers'?
> 
> On that, though I expect any 'volunteers' to be our more experienced and longstanding members, we do need to be careful in case people volunteer who we really don't know well, maybe prone to being more enthusiastic than knowledgeable.
> 
> ...


John I will help out if you want to put my name down.. not sure what I was supposed to do as in the thread I can't respond. but just so everyone knows..Iam NOT a veterinarian and do not play one on TV... also I do not do dosage of meds unless they are over the counter with directions.. I usually use my vet for that..we weigh the bird and she figures it out.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Can we see if we get more names for 'volunteers'?
> 
> On that, though I expect any 'volunteers' to be our more experienced and longstanding members, we do need to be careful in case people volunteer who we really don't know well, maybe prone to being more enthusiastic thaknowledgeable.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your efforts also. The first links page looks great. I agree that we need to get the most knowledgeable and experienced people. I have sent inquiries out to several other people who have been suggested by others. I am waiting to get responses. I will PM you with the names of people that accept. What do you think is a good working number to have?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> John I will help out if you want to put my name down.. not sure what I was supposed to do as in the thread I can't respond. but just so everyone knows..Iam NOT a veterinarian and do not play one on TV... also I do not do dosage of meds unless they are over the counter with directions.. I usually use my vet for that..we weigh the bird and she figures it out.


Your name had already been passed on to John per your PM. Thank you for volunteering. The threads are going to be kept closed, with only moderators/administrators able to change things to help keep it all on target.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John/Charis - Charis had posted a sticky thread under Sick or injured pigeon/dove discussion called How To Find A Rehab/Vet. Would it be possible to move this to the first links page, maybe above the other two? Very informational.

Charis - nicely written.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Feel free to add me also


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Have added a link to the specific post in that thread by Charis with the info in it. Let's now just keep it simple 

Dave - just looking over your PMs now.

As for volunteers Dave has found, I assume the idea is to provide their user names as members who can be private messaged in urgent cases? Are we concerned about geography? Thinking that people may have a need for advice at a time when, in their own part of the world, most PT members will be zzzzzzzzzzz.

What we don't want, though, is too many people using volunteers (first responders) and not posting. Can we agree what the involvement of responders should be, what limits there should be, etc.?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

John, I think Geographical info should be included, as you say, that gives folk a rough idea of time zones etc that way they can maybe appreciate response times better.
Also, would be better if responders also posted info given, that would let others see that may have more knowledge/experiance on a similar situation & could add info.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Quazar said:


> John, I think Geographical info should be included, as you say, that gives folk a rough idea of time zones etc that way they can maybe appreciate response times better.
> Also, would be better if responders also posted info given, that would let others see that may have more knowledge/experiance on a similar situation & could add info.


Sounds good, Bob!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually, tinking more about it, it would probably be best if ALL responses were actually given as a post (responder could create a specific thread for each person getting help & they could be pm'd the link to the thread).
The PM system only allows 50 msgs to be stored and this may fill up very quickly. It wouldnt be adviseable to delete pm's while conversations are still in progress as you may need to refer back to previous ones, so actual posting would be more logical and preferable.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Quazar said:


> Feel free to add me also


Thank you Quazar. Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

I like Quazar's ideas. Thank you.I am finding out the problem with using PM's. My box has filled up incredibly fast.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm going to start a thread just for the purpose of members adding vet or rehabber info. that I can verify and then copy to Matilda's List.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Charis said:


> I'm going to start a thread just for the purpose of members adding vet or rehabber info. that I can verify and then copy to Matilda's List.


Thank you Charis.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Charis said:


> I'm going to start a thread just for the purpose of members adding vet or rehabber info. that I can verify and then copy to Matilda's List.


Maybe John could make that a "sticky" also 
Also Charis, just a thought, but when adding them, maybe also add the date they were added, easier to see which is most recent and probably more viable


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Quazar said:


> Maybe John could make that a "sticky" also
> Also Charis, just a thought, but when adding them, maybe also add the date they were added, easier to see which is most recent and probably more viable


Well, we already have a sticky of 'How To Find A Rehabber Or Veterinarian' thread which was originated by Charis.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Quazar said:


> Maybe John could make that a "sticky" also
> Also Charis, just a thought, but when adding them, *maybe also add the date they were added, easier to see which is most recent and probably more viable*


Great idea. 
The other thing I want to add is, the price of the office visit and if the clinic has a no cost or reduced cost wildlife policy for a feral pigeon.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> I like Quazar's ideas. Thank you.I am finding out the problem with using PM's. My box has filled up incredibly fast.


Have increased storage limit to 100 messages.

Sometimes I get notes from people who say they've cleared out their inbox - but they didn't delete any of their 'sent' messages


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Have increased storage limit to 100 messages.
> 
> Sometimes I get notes from people who say they've cleared out their inbox - but they didn't delete any of their 'sent' messages


Thanks, I appreciate it. And I will check out my "sent" box


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

John_D said:


> Well, we already have a sticky of 'How To Find A Rehabber Or Veterinarian' thread which was originated by Charis.


Bob - have made it a sticky anyway (otherwise, yes it could get lost)


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Charis said:


> Great idea.
> The other thing I want to add is, the price of the office visit and if the clinic has a no cost or reduced cost wildlife policy for a feral pigeon.


Hope your using a database prog to store this info, I can see other columns being added as time goes on.... lol




John_D said:


> Have increased storage limit to 100 messages.
> 
> Sometimes I get notes from people who say they've cleared out their inbox - but they didn't delete any of their 'sent' messages


Nice one, (and empty any other folders they have personally created)

incidently for anyone that doesnt know, you can download any messages to your own pc that you really need to keep by marking them, then go to the "move to folder" selection and select a download format that suits you.
once downloaded, you can then delete them from your messages folder.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Have also set up a persistent notice for 'pigeon Crisis ....' forum sections, so no-one can claim they didn't see it


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Have also set up a persistent notice for 'pigeon Crisis ....' forum sections, so no-one can claim they didn't see it


That is so great, thanks. I like that a lot. Dave


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

John_D said:


> Have also set up a persistent notice for 'pigeon Crisis ....' forum sections, so no-one can claim they didn't see it


Where ? 

lol, joking, already seen it.

Actually, that gives me another Idea....
When a new member joins, is it possible that before they are allowed to post, for them to first see a message (possibly in some contrasting standout colour like white on a red background) to inform them that If they are posting about a rescued bird to include their city/town location and all info as to how and where the bird was found, circumstances etc. as that is also important when trying to diagnose problems & can often save a lot of posting time question & answers back & forth.
I realise not everyone joins just for rescues, but those that do are often in panic and dont really post enough info in the first instance.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

But something like that would also let the other newbies know what info is needed if and when they ever need emergency services. Might as well educate them all as they get started on the forum. you guys are sooooo good!


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Wow, this is great.....How'd I miss this thread? I've been a vet tech for roughly 38 years, and have found that most vets in MY area will not treat or even look at pigeons. If it is a 'pet', most won't see it ......reason being - 'lack of knowledge'. There is 2 (supposedly) Avain vets in my area. 'My' experience with these vets was not favorable. Years ago (before I joined this forum), I was loosing youngsters- symptoms: crooked beaks, trouble swallowing, then death. 1st avian vet had no idea what the problem was, he prescribed triple sulfa. I was still loosing my young birds. At my wits end, I found PT, and quickly learned from here that it was Canker and how to treat!!! So much for 'that' avian vet
> I had another older bird later on that I had been treating and just not getting better, or would get better then relapse. I took her to the 2nd avian vet and told her I was concerned that it was 'chronic paratyphoid'. Her response was 'I'm not familiar with that'. I left
> Any birds that come into my clinic (or our sister hospital in NH), the doctors ask me if I will take it in. If I'm not there, they will refer people to the Wildlife Center. If I am there, I take the birds. If its a species beyond my care (raptors, owls, etc) I take it to the wildlife center.
> So I think a list is a great idea!
> It took me over an hour to catch up and read this whole thread, so now I have to go get ready for work, but I will be back to respond more


If you wanted to join the list of 'first responders' (PM Almondman to accept)...you would have a virtual Monopoly on Maine, I'd suppose


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Jaye said:


> If you wanted to join the list of 'first responders' (PM Almondman to accept)...you would have a virtual Monopoly on Maine, I'd suppose


Your right!....There's not much help up in this neck of the woods  I'd be glad to help 
I'm actually 'in site' of the New Hampshire (Portsmouth) border, on the coast. We're divided by the Piscataqua River


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Msfreebird said:


> Your right!....There's not much help up in this neck of the woods  I'd be glad to help


Thanks again, Dave


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

you guys are doing a fantastic job..esp almond man.. kudos to you for working this out.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Quazar said:


> .......
> 
> When a new member joins, is it possible that before they are allowed to post, for them to first see a message (possibly in some contrasting standout colour like white on a red background) to inform them that If they are posting about a rescued bird to include their city/town location and all info as to how and where the bird was found, circumstances etc
> 
> ......


We don't have a facility (within Admin's control, anyway) to set up messages with a "click OK to continue" type thing, unfortunately - best I can do is add a little to a notice I'd already set up. Since it only shows if you're in one of the 'emergency' forum sections but have never posted, it's reproduced below (on the actual notice, the red parts will blink in a most irritating way  ):


*New Members:​*
Please do NOT post your query or request on the end of an existing topic (thread) - it may not be noticed! Use the 'new thread' button for your topic.

Please DO give a location and some information about how/where you found the bird (backyard, street, etc.)


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

spirit wings said:


> you guys are doing a fantastic job..esp almond man.. kudos to you for working this out.


Agree!....


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

spirit wings said:


> you guys are doing a fantastic job..esp almond man.. kudos to you for working this out.


Thank you both, but to be honest, John_D has done most, if not all, of setting this up. And several folks have contributed many great ideas to help fine tune the process. Charis has added Matilda's list and a how-to for locating Vet.s and Rehabbers. She has also added a place to give Vet. and Rehab information. John_D also added another list for the UK. When this is up and running, I will "name names" of the others who gave suggestions, ideas, and other possible first responders. 

Thanks again to all of the above, and to those folks that have already volunteered. We are waiting to hear from some others, but we are very close to having this up and running. Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> We don't have a facility (within Admin's control, anyway) to set up messages with a "click OK to continue" type thing, unfortunately - best I can do is add a little to a notice I'd already set up. Since it only shows if you're in one of the 'emergency' forum sections but have never posted, it's reproduced below (on the actual notice, the red parts will blink in a most irritating way  ):
> 
> 
> *New Members:​*
> ...


Another great idea. It really does just keep getting better.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

John_D said:


> We don't have a facility (within Admin's control, anyway) to set up messages with a "click OK to continue" type thing, unfortunately - best I can do is add a little to a notice I'd already set up. Since it only shows if you're in one of the 'emergency' forum sections but have never posted, it's reproduced below (on the actual notice, the red parts will blink in a most irritating way  ):
> 
> 
> *New Members:​*
> ...


That would prob do although I was thinking of something a bit more visual that would make them read it lol
I know the early VB boards dont leave much scope with sectional formatting, 
but would it allow you to put a graphic in the notice ?
something like


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!!!!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Before we put in the user names who have kindly agreed to be 'first responders', we need to agree on a little wording before the actual list to say what a new person may and may not expect when/if they contact one of our guys.

Regardless of what info we put about location, it's almost guaranteed that some one will come along who thinks one of you guys is going to be zooming off to their house to render assistance  

Of course, some people may not read the 'what to expect' either, but we can't make it entirely foolproof.

Also, do you want to be seen as being in a specific location (or near a specific city) or just what country you are in?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Should there be some thing directing them back to the "sick or injured pigeon/dove discussion" forum if there is no one available here?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> Should there be some thing directing them back to the "sick or injured pigeon/dove discussion" forum if there is no one available here?


Sure, why not. Maybe something like this:

_Please be aware that responders are volunteer members, and we cannot guarantee that any specific member will be logged in and available at a particular time.

As an alternative, please post your request in "I found a pigeon or dove - now what?", "Sick or Injured Pigeon and Dove Discussions" or "Wood Pigeons And Others Not Native To North America" as appropriate, giving as much information as you can.

To do this, please click on the name of the relevant forum section and use the "New Thread" button found towards top left of page._


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

You really have a way with words. That is nicely done. Thanks John.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

Cheers. All we need now is our responders to decide what 'customers' may expect from them, so over to you good people.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

*Is this needed* Suggested information from posters:

Information needed from posters:

A. Location of patient City/State(?)

B. Circumstances - own bird, found bird, given bird

C.Was attempt made to contact Vet/rehab - if one available in area ask to contact

D. Description of illness:
1. Physical description of symptoms (wheezing, unable to stand, not eating/
drinking, discharge from nose, diarrhea, etc) 
2. How long has the bird had symptoms?
3. What has been done to comfort the bird
4. What meds does owner have available
5. Experience of owner in treating birds

E. Description of injury:
1. Area of injury - wing, neck, leg, beak, body etc/
2. Type of injury - break, puncture wound, cut, concussion/bird bleeding
3. Cause of injurie - hit by car, hawk attack, flew into wire/window
4. What has been done to comfort the bird 
5. What meds does owner have available
6. Experience of owner in treating birds

Too Much?????


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

I think it's great. Would help give a whole picture of what is going on.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

almondman said:


> *Is this needed* Suggested information from posters:
> 
> Information needed from posters:
> A. Location of patient City/State(?)
> ...


I think thats great!
As far as letting new members know what to expect from us (first responders). I think its important that they know we are NOT veterinarians. That we can help/guide them in case of emergencies if they do not or can't find a vet or rehabber in their area. 
I'll be back.....I'm at work


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

almondman said:


> How's this?
> 
> *Our First Responders are chosen based on their expertise, knowledge, and experience. Although they are very capable of discussing and offering advice, they are not Veterinarians. Please make every effort to find a Veterinarian or Rehabber in your area before posting here. *
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

That bit may put them off, also they may read that, then go look and find a vet who isnt too pigeon friendly and then the bird gets PTS.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

almondman said:


> Quazar - Please re-read post 109 that you just quoted. Is that better?


Yep thats fine Dave, I agree they should try & find a vet, but just felt they may read it and think twice about posting lol.
Also, those that maybe cant afford a vet may think they need to first & just not bother.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Agreed!  Thanks, Dave


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Quazar said:


> Yep thats fine Dave, I agree they should try & find a vet, but just felt they may read it and think twice lol.
> Also, those that maybe cant afford a vet may think they need to first & just not bother.


Sounds good to me too 
I don't have a problem with advising treatments or giving doses with illness's and meds *that I know and have used*. Because....I am in an area that does *not* have good veterinary care for pigeon illnesses or ferals. By all means, if they can find a vet...they should. But I think the whole purpose of this thread is for people that cannot find help. And hopefully we can help them.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

John_D said:


> Before we put in the user names who have kindly agreed to be 'first responders', we need to agree on a little wording before the actual list to say what a new person may and may not expect when/if they contact one of our guys.
> 
> Regardless of what info we put about location, it's almost guaranteed that some one will come along who thinks one of you guys is going to be zooming off to their house to render assistance
> 
> ...


I think it should be narrowed down somewhat. There are no vets listed on 'Matilda's List' for Maine. Yet I am 2 miles from VCA Animal Medical Center in Portsmouth, NH (which she does have listed, but that's where I had one of my bad experiences.......AND, I use to work there). Please note though that I am on very good terms with Dr. Guerrino, and he is excellent with birds and exotics (reptiles, etc)! He just wasn't there the day I needed him....I got an associate 
Not sure how you want to handle locations, but we have Charis's list, so we can always refer to that if their out of our area.
So, I am located Southern Maine/New Hampshire Seacoast.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

What do you think?

*General Locations of First Responders*
Msfreebird - Southern Maine/New Hampshire Seacoast/USA

*General Information:*
Please be aware that our First Responders are not Veterinarians. They were chosen based on their expertise, knowledge, and experience and are very capable of discussing and offering advice. 

Please be aware that this is an on-line service only, with no off-line services offered.

_Please be aware that responders are volunteer members, and we cannot guarantee that any specific member will be logged in and available at a particular time.

As an alternative, please post your request in "I found a pigeon or dove - now what?", "Sick or Injured Pigeon and Dove Discussions" or "Wood Pigeons And Others Not Native To North America" as appropriate, giving as much information as you can.

To do this, please click on the name of the relevant forum section and use the "New Thread" button found towards top left of page._[/

*Helpful Information From Posters:*
A. Location of patient - City/State/Province/Country

B. Circumstances - own bird, found bird, given bird

C. Was attempt made to contact Vet/rehab - (if one available in posters area, ask them to contact for follow up care)

D. Description of illness/observations noticed/be as detailed as possible:
1. Physical description of symptoms (wheezing, unable to stand, not eating/drinking, discharge from nose, diarrhea, etc) 
2. How long has the bird had symptoms?
3. What has been done to comfort the bird
4. What meds does owner have available
5. Experience of owner in treating birds

E. Description of injury/observations noticed/be as detailed as possible:
1. Area of injury - wing, neck, leg, beak, body etc.
2. Type of injury - break, puncture wound, cut, concussion, bird bleeding
3. Cause of injurie - hit by car, hawk attack, flew into wire/window
4. What has been done to comfort the bird 
5. What meds does owner have available
6. Experience of owner in treating birds


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think you have pretty much covered it there, Dave:



> Please be aware that our First Responders are not Veterinarians. They were chosen based on their expertise, knowledge, and experience and are very capable of discussing and offering advice.
> 
> Please be aware that this is an on-line service only, with no off-line services offered.


Says what 'customers' may reasonably expect without getting bogged down in detail. Will put something together today for approval.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

OK, I have put together what would be in *First Responders - Emergency Contacts* for approval:

Dave - one bit where I wasn't sure what you meant is highlighted in red

~~~​
These are members who can be contacted in an emergency for advice on a sick, injured or found pigeon/dove. *Please read the following before scrolling down to the list:*

*About First Responders:*

Please be aware that our First Responders are not Veterinarians. They were chosen based on their knowledge and experience, and are very capable of discussing and offering advice (please note that this is an on-line service only, with no off-line services offered). They are volunteer members, and we cannot guarantee that any specific Responder will be logged in and available at a particular time. 

As an alternative, please post your request in "I found a pigeon or dove - now what?", "Sick or Injured Pigeon and Dove Discussions" or "Wood Pigeons And Others Not Native To North America" as appropriate, giving as much information as you can. To do this, please click on the name of the relevant forum section and use the "New Thread" button found towards top left of page.

*The patient:* 

(Please provide as much information as possible, but do not worry if you are not sure about some of it. Our members will ask relevant questions if/when they need to)

 A) Location of patient - City/State/Province/Country

B) Circumstances - own bird, found bird, given bird

C) Was attempt made to contact Vet/rehabber - (if one available in posters area, ask them to contact for follow up care)

D) If bird appears uninjured, but seems sick: description of illness/observations (please be as detailed as possible):
1. Physical description of symptoms (wheezing, unable to stand, not eating/drinking, discharge from nose, diarrhea, etc) 
2. How long the bird has had symptoms 
3. What has been done to comfort the bird
4. What medications owner has available
5. Experience of owner in treating birds

E) If bird has an evident injury: description of injury/observations (please be as detailed as possible):
1. Area of injury - wing, neck, leg, beak, body etc.
2. Type of injury - break, puncture wound, cut, concussion, bird bleeding
3. Cause of injury if known - hit by car, hawk attack, flew into wire/window
4. What has been done to comfort the bird 
5. What medications owner has available
6. Experience of owner in treating birds

*First Responder list:*

spirit wings (USA - Nr Williamsburg VA ) 

Jaye (USA - San Francisco)

Msfreebird (USA - Southern Maine/New Hampshire Seacoast)

Quazar (UK - Edinburgh, Scotland)

altgirl35 (USA - Gloucester MA)

*Clicking on a Responder's name will take you to the PM (private message) form so you can contact the member.*

~~~​


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> OK, I have put together what would be in *First Responders - Emergency Contacts* for approval:
> 
> Dave - one bit where I wasn't sure what you meant is highlighted in red
> 
> ...


This should probably be somewhere else. My thought was that the responders should let the posters know to follow up with a Vet IF there is one in their area. This is for anyone that may have come straight to Pigeon Talk with their concerns. Maybe it doesn't need to be here at all. Might confuse things What do you think? By the way, another great job putting it all together!!!!!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> This should probably be somewhere else. My thought was that the responders should let the posters know to follow up with a Vet IF there is one in their area. This is for anyone that may have come straight to Pigeon Talk with their concerns. Maybe it doesn't need to be here at all. Might confuse things What do you think?


See what you mean. I'd think that it might be best left out, then if whoever they contact does believe the poster really needs to get the bird to a vet or rescue place, they can start by advising poster to check the lists we've linked to. Would that do it?


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes sir.


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

We have lift off in that case, ma man 

If any of us think we need to change anything, no problem (well, within reason).

Never know, you might get a few interested people see it and volunteer, too!


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f113/...ts-facility-for-registered-members-59976.html

I had to add the Registered Members part, since 'guests' can not use PM / Email.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

Lift off it is!

(Unless others want changes)

Heart felt thanks to John, the First Responders, Charis, and all the others who helped with ideas and suggestions to bring this together. It will provide a service to our members and help our birds get the care they need. I really appreciate all the efforts. Dave


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John - Have you, or should you, increase the capacity from 50 to ???? for PM messages for the responders?


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

almondman said:


> John - Have you, or should you, increase the capacity from 50 to ???? for PM messages for the responders?


Hi .. should be 100 now.


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## almondman (Aug 22, 2009)

John_D said:


> Hi .. should be 100 now.


Appreciate it, thanks. Dave


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