# Baby Possibly Attacked



## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I found my 5 week old Oops baby flat on it's back on the shed floor this morning. It must have been there all night as it was covered in poop and cold, not moving.
I took it inside for a couple of hours and warmed it up and it seemed a little better but still sleepy. Didn't notice anything obviously wrong so took it back out to it's parents. The dad is still feeding it, it's not flying or weaned at all yet.

It went back and hid in it's nest box. The dad immediately went to see it and although he pecked it did all he could to get it to respond, it wouldn't feed.
I watched it for a while and then noticed that whenever the dad went away, the babies wicked step sister went up and pecked the baby and pushed it out of the box. Dad chased this youngster off but it kept going back and trying again.
The dad tried to clean and preen the baby as it's got poop on its back and it still wasn't doing anything in response so I've brought it away again.

It's just fluffed up and has one eye closed. One wing seems to be held lower as well.
I now think it's eye has been scratched or pecked by the other youngster as it's redder than the other. Also the underside of the dropped wing is sore and red. Maybe from the other bird or maybe the baby scratched itself from trying to get back onto it's feet. Must have got exhausted, given up and laid there all night.

I can bathe it's wounds but wasn't sure if it needed anything as drastic as anti-biotics from being pecked by this other bird.
I'd have liked to get it back to it's dad but if it won't feed I'll have to keep it indoors and force feed it to see if it perks up with that.

I think it's frightened and sore as opposed to being sick but can't be sure.
Any advice on whether to use meds please or try TLC first.

Thanks

Janet


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Maybe this little one was sick to begin with, if it isn't flying yet? Even if pushed out by the other sibling, I would think that at 5 weeks old, it would have been able to fly and get around if healthy. How was it acting before this happened? Is his throat clear?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I myself would bring the baby inside and to finish raising it and to wean. I would also start a course of Metronidazole & Baytril, as my suspicion something is going on with this little guy from the sounds of things and without running a bunch of tests, this combo will treat for a good number of issues. 

Karyn


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree w/ Dobato. Regardless of one's desire to allow the baby to fledge 'naturally', there really is no other alternative but to care for him/her yourself at this point. If you have any topical eye treatment you could try that as well.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

I've just tubed it some food an hour ago as poops were clear white and I know it was last fed yesterday evening as I watched dad doing it as usual but it's not eaten all day.

I've taken it out again and put it back in it's box a few minutes ago as I saw dad looking for it. Dad went back and tried to feed but no response from baby, so I have brought it back and put it back on heat.

By the way, this is the baby I posted about a short while ago that has a mystery bump on it's beak. That is still there but slightly smaller maybe.
The beak area is looking a little red on the same side the sore eye is. This is red around the edge.
I watched the other youngster again go back and try to peck at baby and as baby always lies in the same place, this is the side that the other one pecks at.
Maybe the bump has something to do with this other bird attacking it as it may well have done it since it was born.
This other bird is from the same parents but a few months ago and it was raised in this same box, seems to think it owns it now, so probably why it wants this one out.
They were both lone babies, no siblings for either. I was hoping they'd be company for each other, not looking hopeful. 

You may be right as well about something being wrong as this is the second time I've 'saved' this ones life.
When it was a few days old I found it out of the nest, stuck behind the bowl, and freezing cold. I brought it in then and had to warm it up but the parents took it back on when I placed it back with them.
I have a special place in my heart for it though as I'd missed swapping the eggs and when I candled it I saw it moving so hadn't got the heart to throw it out. Decided to let it hatch, so it's quite special and very sweet.

I'll go and weigh it to confirm the dosage.

Thanks

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

The best thing would be to take the baby to a vet. There may be more than one thing going on with him.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Charis said:


> The best thing would be to take the baby to a vet. There may be more than one thing going on with him.


Hi Charis,

Sadly my vet doesn't seem to be very knowledgable as far as birds are concerned. I did take this baby to see him a couple of weeks ago with the lump on his beak. He said it wasn't pox but didn't know what it was though.
He's diagnosed my other pigeon with laying difficulties as having an air sac infection and assured me he could feel no egg. The next day she laid an egg!
In fact exactly the same happened with the other youngster I took a few weeks ago. He was sure there was no second egg, and a few days later, low and behold she laid a second egg.

There are no avian specialists around here so it does make it hard when I get these problems.

If the baby does go down hill any more I will have to try them but don't have masses of faith in what he tells me, although he's an excellent vet as far as my other animals go, couldn't ask for more in fact. Just haven't had a lot of luck with him with my birds to date.

Just thought I'd explain why I do tend to ask here first. 

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Maybe Cynthia or John and make a vet recommendation. Can you go a bit out of area?


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I went to check on baby and could feel about two large seeds at the bottom of it's crop and the kaytee still there from earlier.

Gave him his anti-bioics and he was immediately sick and brought up three very large expanded seeds and some Kaytee.

I can still feel at least one more large seed in there, maybe more. Obviously having trouble passing these seeds through and Im worried about them festering inside. Is there any safe way of getting them out or what can I do to help him pass them?

Janet


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Hmm...sounds like he may be blocked. I had that experience a couiple of weeks ago with a youngster and so did Jay3. I fed warmed applesauce [5ccs] massaged the crop gently and the baby finally vomitted some small pebbles and the problem resolved.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Charis said:


> Maybe Cynthia or John and make a vet recommendation. Can you go a bit out of area?


I will check with them. I know Jayne,(Pigeon Queen) has a great one in London but that's about three hours away sadly.

I'm going to start looking into it though. I've been very lucky up to now and haven't had many emergencies with my residents but lately there's been one after another. Seems to go like that doesn't it!

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Charis,

He's perked up a bit since being sick and is busy preening himself on my lap at the mo.

I can never find basic baby apple sauce these days, but have just found a jar of apple and pear baby sauce that dated out in February in the back of the fridge, I must have bought a while ago.
Will try that and see if I can clear the rest out.

At least that might explain why he wouldn't feed from his dad today.
I wonder if lying upside down on the floor all night caused it as he had a good feed from dad early evening and so would have been full up when he fell down from his box.

Thanks for the help.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, yes, there is something is definitely going on with this little one. Tube him 6mL of warm water with 2 drops of ACV, gently massage this around in his crop for a few seconds and see if his crop will pass this. In 1-2 hours if fluids are passed, then give him his meds again at 1/2 strength i another 6 mL of warm water with 2 drops of ACV, then from that time go to regular dose in 12h, if you are twice a day dosing. Hold off on any food at all for the next day.

If he after he passes the warm fluids with ACV, and before giving the 1/2 meds again, if his crop feels empty, you can locate and work back up his esophagus the large seed you feel, if it is still there and he does not regurgitate it out himself.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

OK Karyn, will do.

I'll give him the 6ml now but will have to put him to bed for the night soon as it's getting late. I'll stay up another hour with him and check he's ok, then can follow on with what you suggest in the morning again.
He's just done a tiny poop, the first one today apart from a couple of white spots this morning so that's something at least.

He's not right though. Is lying leaning to one side and his eye's hurting him as well, can't keep it open, but I'm bathing that, so hope that'll help.

Will report back tomorrow,

Thanks a lot

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> OK Karyn, will do.
> 
> I'll give him the 6ml now but will have to put him to bed for the night soon as it's getting late. I'll stay up another hour with him and check he's ok, then can follow on with what you suggest in the morning again.
> He's just done a tiny poop, the first one today apart from a couple of white spots this morning so that's something at least.
> ...


Janet, if it's late then do the 1/2 dose of meds (both Baytril and Metronidazole) in the first go of warm water and ACV, skip the second, and let's see what the morning holds, but make it 7mL instead of 6mL.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry Karyn missed your post as I went and did the 6ml straight away then fell asleep in the chair with him on my lap.

Just checked him before going to bed and the crop is still squidgey, so I daren't put anything else in, but I will give him the half dose of meds now anyway and check back as soon as I get up.

he's done a tiny bile like poop.

Thanks again

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Sorry Karyn missed your post as I went and did the 6ml straight away then fell asleep in the chair with him on my lap.
> 
> Just checked him before going to bed and the crop is still squidgey, so I daren't put anything else in, but I will give him the half dose of meds now anyway and check back as soon as I get up.
> 
> ...


Janet, no problem. Please do give him the 1/2 dose of meds and let's see how things are in the morning.

Karyn


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

amyable said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just tubed it some food an hour ago as poops were clear white and I know it was last fed yesterday evening as I watched dad doing it as usual but it's not eaten all day.
> 
> ...


wow seem like a very special bird.. i would hand raise myself if its were mine. This bird must be very lucky to be own by you because you care about it a lot. I would suggest use any means to help it and hand raise it until until it fly.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Today's update.

Last night gave him his half dose of meds and he was immediately sick again. Brought up watercress stems and liquid which is a treat dad loves!
He still had a lot of fluid in his crop so I tubed a bit out as he seemed uncomfortable and restless.
Left him in peace for the night then.

This morning his crop seems a bit emptier but made it easier to feel that he had some more large seeds stuck in there.

I've managed to massage two out so far but there are still more.
He's had his meds and not been sick.

Shall I try and massage some more out or try the warm water and ACV to see if any pass through now?

Janet

ps.Have got seven more very large seeds out now, can feel some slightly smaller ones still in the crop. He's getting a bit stressed at me getting them out now so am giving him a break. Apart from these his crop is pretty well flat.
Has done a couple of small green poops as well.

Thanks sev3nsOuls. He is a sweetheart and I'd be gutted if he doesn't make it.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Today's update.
> 
> Last night gave him his half dose of meds and he was immediately sick again. Brought up watercress stems and liquid which is a treat dad loves!
> He still had a lot of fluid in his crop so I tubed a bit out as he seemed uncomfortable and restless.
> ...



Janet, need to know (photo if possible) what is coming out the back end, to gage how things are moving. Yes, best to get everything you can out of his crop that you are able to ease up. Here is what I would do if here were in my care. I would ease all the large items that I could. I would then flush/rinse then suction his crop a few times with warm hydration fluids with a bit of ACV added (250mL of warm water, 1 teaspoon of sugar, 1/4 teaspoon salt, 1/8 teaspoon baking soda, 2 drops of ACV to each 10mL of fluids). Since you mentioned you suctioned back out some fluids, I know you are comfortable with doing this, here is a link to a thread showing how to modify a feeding tube's end so it will be able to more easily suction fluids without grabbing the side of the crop that will make fluids hard to get back out., Slowly tube in 10mL of fluids, using the suctioning tube (it can be used to give the fluids as well as getting them back out) if the fluids stop drawing up, push down on the plunger a bit to release, rotate the syringe a bit and start drawing again).

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/feral-pigeon-brought-in-injured-but-may-be-sick-44906.html

After doing this let him rest 1 hour then feel his crop and see if you feel anything large left inside and ease these up if you can. If the crop feels flat and empty, or after you ease up any large items that are left, you may give him some 7mL of the plain hydration fluids above (with a drop of ACV). In another 1-2 hours check the crop again and if the fluids have moved through you may give him 7mL honey/sugar water for energy (1 teaspoon of sugar or honey into 60mL of warm water). In a 1-2 hours if the sugar water mover through you may give him 7mL of plain fluids again. I want you to continue with the meds on your schedule, just add them to the plain hydration fluids when time, no real food for the next day.

One other thing that can help dislodge, move along, a blockage is to give him some rapid percussive taps with the ends of your fingers up and down his back to send vibrations into his GI to "mix" in the fluids you are giving with what is in there slowing things down to help move it through. Do this when his crop have moved the fluids down, not when you have just given him some fluids.

The other thing in these situations what can be a big help is a series of Sub-Q fluids with Lactated Ringers Solution or Dextrose 5% in 0.9% Sodium Chloride solution to "prime the pump" to get things moving again. he may also need injections of parenteral meds (injectable Baytril 20mg/kg IM and Metoclopramide 0.30mg/kg IM) to aid as well, your vet will need to be involved for these.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks Karyn. Will do a flush.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Forgot to post his latest poop picture.

View attachment 20759


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I am encouraged by this dropping, shows things are moving through and he is being hydrated. If he can take it, you can give him the sugar/honey water 2-3 times today, alternating with the regular hydration fluid. If his crop starts to empty OK, we can try some thin Kaytee tomorrow, no more than 7mL at a time, every 2-3 hours, making sure the crop is empty before feeding again.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm pleased if it means something is going through now.

am just preparing the tube etc as per the thread you linked in. Will let you know how it goes. Thanks so much.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

My internet keep dropping off so am just posting my progress step by step in case I lose it completely later.

Have flushed his crop five times, bless his little heart for coping so well!

It's pretty well just greyish liquid with some remains of Kaytee and I did get another scrap of watercress.
I can feel a couple of medium seeds at the bottom but am leaving him to rest for the hour now before putting him through any more.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm worried about Baby as he seems to have trouble balancing.

It may be that he's weak so I've just given him 7ml of honey water.

He's been able to walk ok for the past week outside albeit as a youngster does when he first investigates outside his nest, legs apart and a bit clumsey, but ok.

He keeps pushing himself backwards with one leg stuck out to the front and seems as if he can't get comfortable, going round in circles in his box.
I put him on the floor just now to see how he did on carpet where he can get a grip, but he kept falling over sideways and couldn't get up again.

He was doing this before I flushed his crop so I don't think it's due to that upsetting him.
After I'd left him for the hours rest I felt his crop and he's still got some seeds in there. I got one more large one out but the rest feel smaller than that now. I just can't seem to get those up in the same way.

This is a picture of his posture if it's not too large to see clearly.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, they are such good little troopers aren't they , sounds like you a good job of flushing/evacuating his crop, I think that will be enough, we'll just let the smaller seeds pass through on their own. Let's get him set up in a donut towel in a smaller cage (like below), no food or water in the cage, but you can provide him with supplemental heat to conserve energy and continue with the fluids (with ACV), allowing the crop to empty between each administration.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=467722&postcount=6

Let's let him rest up for now and continue with the meds and the honey water will help with his energy, but hold it at the one go of 7mL only, from now, plain fluids only until we start the thin Kaytee tomorrow. Can we get a weight for him today, so we can monitor his progress if possible? You can cover the top of his cage with a towel so he feels more secure.

Karyn


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

wow a very nice color bird, a roller breed right? To me, at this age, it should be able to stand up and eventually it should start flapping its wing to get it stronger...but due to its sickness, please take of it. i see that the lump on its beak is getting smaller and smaller. That is good.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

sev3ns0uls said:


> wow a very nice color bird, a roller breed right?


Hi there,

Well to be honest I'm not very good on breeds. All mine are rescues and this ones mum I think is a golden brown Roller that a vet sent me when he couldn't locate it's owner. It was injured and she can't fly now.
Dad is half blue bar homing pigeon and a one eyed white Tippler or Tumbler! so dad's a white pigeon with blue bars!. May have a picture in my albums when he was younger.
So this baby has turned out a lovely Taupe colour. A strange mixture but very pretty. The other youngster that attacked him is from the same parents and looks the same. Both have stayed small with a tiny beak and look like the mother really.
If he makes it I'll post some pictures in my albums.

He's five weeks old now and the other one was weaned and walking by now so I think you're right, he is behind for some reason.

Janet

'Karyn, I've done what you suggested and set him up in donut. I hope he'll stay put as the little 'b..g..er' kept climbing out as fast I put him in it.
He's down to 180gms today. He was 220gms yesterday morning. Mind you those seeds I got out probably weighed a ton!


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

amyable said:


> 'Karyn, I've done what you suggested and set him up in donut. I hope he'll stay put as the little 'b..g..er' kept climbing out as fast I put him in it.


lol, they can be little devils at times you dont want them to be.
Ive got a couple at the mo with injured wings, one just wont stay put.
What ive managed to do is make a donut in a one litre ice cream tub & covered that with a cloth so its just like a little individual nest.
Then hold their legs back toward their tail & position them in the "nest" keeping one hand gently over their back & head to stop them getting up, held hand there for a few minutes till they relax & cover their back with another towel leaving just head & neck out. They sat like that for about an hour before moving, but have now got used to it & will sit longer without the towel over them, especially when food & water is within neck stretch.
One of them is now happy to just lie there, stands to poop over side then lies down & eats lol.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I think the 180g is a "real" weight, while the 220g from yesterday was made up of his real weight and a bunch of bad stuff that had to come out, both by him regurgitating what he could out himself and you doing what you did to evacuate the rest.

When you start him on the thin Kaytee formula in the morning, give him meds 1/2 hour before feeding and continue to tube them directly to his crop, but just use 2-3cc of fluids to add the meds to, since now that you are starting the Kaytee we don't have to worry about fluids for him as we were. Same for evening dose, time them 1/2 hour before a Kaytee feeding. Try him at 7mL of thin Kaytee and see how it goes, watch his droppings for the tell tale color/signs that Kaytee is coming out the back end processed, but check to make sure each feeding has emptied from the crop before feeding again, try and note how long it takes the 7mL to pass from the crop for us to get an idea of how well things are moving.

Yes, they do not always want to stay in the donut at first, but a good deal of time they figure out that it's comfortable and offers support and find their way back into the donut on their own. I have also done something similar to what Bob mentions, lightly wrapping them in a towel and placing them in the donut, the young one see to get some comfort from the "cave" the towel offers them. For the coming days, no food or water on his own, you will control time and amounts for everything going into him.

What do you have on hand in the way of vitamin and calcium supplements?

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

This youngster is causing me heart failure! I put him to bed last night in his donut in a small box that I would have put bets on he couldn't move in.
I found him this morning upside down, headfirst, burrowed under all of the towels. I thought he was gone.
He's very agitated all the time and won't sit still. Has no strength in his legs to stand at all but is constantly trying to get up, then just falls flat on his face.
I had a meeting with some folks this morning and ended up having to take him with me as the only time he stays put is if he's in my hands.

He'd passed a lot of green wet poops overnight as I gave him another 7mls of fluids before bed.

I fed him 7mls of runny Kaytee at 10.00am this morning. Nothings come through yet at 14.00pm.
I've felt his crop and just got another large bean out and I can feel about four smaller seeds still there for definite.
He keeps nuzzling as if hungry but can't feed him as there's no sign of the kaytee passing.

I'm typing one handed as the only way to keep him stll is have him in my hand.

I'm wondering if his crop has been stretched as dad is a large pigeon and maybe he's overfilled him. Do you think that's a possibility if the seeds are stuck. Just trying to guess why he's having this problem when up to now he's been fine and pooping like a trouper since he was born.

I'm going to try and fix up a small enclosure for him, maybe i could fix a sort of sling where his legs are positioned through two holes so he can't push himself forward. I have to go out again in an hour so am scared to leave him just in his box in case he suffocates being stuck head first in a corner again.
He's as quiet as a mouse sitting here in my hands!

I'm going out now for two hours, will report back on poops hopefully on my return.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, yes, this little guy is keeping things interesting . It may be best to confine him to a small box, say 14"x14" or so, so he does not get himself into trouble, no donut and toweling in the bottom. In these situations I most times will "tack" a sheet of paper towel onto of the terry towel using a few small pieces of tape for quick clean up, I use tape so the paper towel stays in place, if he thrashes a lot, you may even have to tack the terry towel in place.

If he does not pass the Kaytee, I have another plan for you, I will keep an eye on your thread. In case I am not around, part of the plan will include a soy based infant formula like this:

http://www.1-formula.com/human-formula/parents-choice-formula/parents-choice-soy-formula.html

See if you can pick up some, having a can of this on hand can be helpful in a good deal of ways for other feeding issues you may face in the future with other birds.

There are a number of issues that can cause a GI system to become slow, to varying extents, to complete stasis. They can be caused by infection and from something physically causing blockage or a foreign object impeding the functioning of things (aka hardware disease), I don't feel it was overfeeding that caused this.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,
I'm back to one hand typing so I can keep his little fidget the right way up. 

He has passed a* very* small green poop, nothing that looks like Kaytee sadly.

I came back and checked the thread earlier and rushed out and have bought some Cow & Gate infasoy, infant formula. Hopefully it's similar to your link Karyn.

Janet

Just as i've been typing he's done another green poop.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Does his crop still feel like the Kaytee is in there?

Can you post a photo of the dropping?

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry, he pooped on my lap and I wiped it off.
The second poop was a bit like yesterdays that I posted a picture of, but smaller. More liquidy than white urates this time, but dark green.

His crop feels empty though.

In answer to your question about vits.. I have a liquid calcium with Vit D supplement that is added to birds water.
Vits..Nutrobal, high calcium balancer and multi/mineral supplement. Also ACE High, Miulti vit with mainly A,C &E both made by Vetark.

I also have Poly-Aid.Emergency nutrition for sick birds (to stop birds from starving) it says. That dated out a year ago but hasn't been used and seems ok.I don't know if you know of this product. It's also by Vetarc. 

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, the soy formula is something in a way like Emeraid for birds, basically a complete meal in liquid form. here's a link to it:

http://www.lafebervet.com/lafeber-products/emeraid-omnivore/

Just so you know for future reference, if the crop did not pass the Kaytee I would have had you tube 5mL of fluids into the crop with the suction tube (to help loosen thing things up) and evacuate the crop contents. Then give 7mL of warms fluids with ACV, wait 4 hours, see how the crop is, is flat I would have had you mix up the soy formula, following direction on the package, and feed 7mL. Most of the infant formulas have 67-68kcal/100mL meaning that 7mL of formula would give this little guy just under 5 calorie of food energy.

Since he is seems to be passing the Kaytee, I wouldn't mind seeing you mix up some of the soy formula, following instructions on the package and using this to make the "thin Kaytee", instead of plain water. Typically when mixed at a regular thickness Kaytee will contain roughly 1kcal/mL, if we divide this in half, since we are feeding it thin, and add this to the .67kcal/mL that the soy formula will contain we should be a bit above 1kcal/mL for food energy by combining them. I have done this many times myself.

What all this means is that this little guy needs about 40-50kcal a day to thrive and grow (a bit more as he puts on weight each day), so by trying to pack more calories into the smaller meals he is now getting, it will help quite a bit with meeting his nutritional needs.

Shoot for 4-5 7mL meals a day for now, letting his crop empty between feeding keep up the meds. How much Metronidazole are you giving him each day. I was thinking of adding in some supplements, but if we use the soy formula this will fill in a large gap for many vitamins and minerals his growing body requires.

If at any point things lock up, you will do as I laid out about to hopefully clear things up. Sorry for the lengthy explaination (with all those numbers ), but I wanted you to try and understand my thinking better.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

He's just done another poop on the carpet.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet that does not look too bad under the circumstances . Don't forget to post up your Metronidazole dosing.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes will do. I'm just going a bit mental. Just went to pick my daughter up from work with this baby on my lap, got there and realised I was an hour early!!
Am just going to read your instructions properly and get some nutrition down this little one.
Thanks so much for taking the trouble to explain it so thoroughly. I much prefer to have things spelt out like that so I can't make an error.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm giving 0.1ml of Flagyl...200mg/5ml oral suspension twice a day.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> I'm giving 0.1ml of Flagyl...200mg/5ml oral suspension twice a day.
> 
> Janet


Janet, the 0.10cc/mL of 200mg/5ml will be 4mg. If we were to use a quite common standard dosing for Metronidazole in pigeons of 50mg/kg BID, this means this little guy, at 180g, should be getting 9mg twice a day. So I wouldn't mind seeing you double his dose to 0.20cc/mL (8mg) twice a day.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Ok will double it up.

He's on Baytril as well, can you just confirm what dose you'd expect for his weight with that to be sure he's on the right track.

I've given him 7mls of the Soya/Kaytee mix now so I'll stay up with him for a while to make sure he's ok and then carry on as per your instructions tomorrow.

I can't thank you enough for your support

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> He's on Baytril as well, can you just confirm what dose you'd expect for his weight with that to be sure he's on the right track.
> 
> Janet


Of the 2.5% Baytril, at 180g he should be getting, by the book rate of 20mg/kg QD, 3.6mg every 24 hours.

When they are sick like this I tend to put my thumb a bit on the scale, so I wouldn't mind seeing you giving him 0.10cc/mL (2.5mg) q12h for the first 3-4 days, then to 0.075cc/mL after that (1.8mg) q12h.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Today I started off with finding him upside down as usual in his box. He had pooped some more green droppings in the night. I fixed him up with a foam pad last night with holes for his legs to act like a sling in his box thinking if he was upright and had his legs off the ground he'd not be able to topple over in the night. Hudini baby still got out of that somehow so although he can't stand, he has strength in his legs and wings.

So I tubed him 7ml of the Soya/Kaytee mix. Had to be out for two hours so fed another 5ml two hours later and took him with me.
He's an absolute nightmare as he is constantly trying to get out of whatever position I put him in. I have to keep putting him straight as he pushes backwards with his feet and ends up head first in the corner of the box again.
If he gets a chance he'll launch himself out of the box and drags himself along with his wings. There's this constant drive to move which I find most strange, you'd think if he felt sick, he'd just lie lifeless in his box.
This situation is odd as he's still so lively considering he ought to be starving. He's back to sitting huddled up quietly in my hand ATM though.

Anyway, I came home and wanted to give another feed but felt there was still some liquid in his crop. So I've followed the instructions from yesterday and tubed in some warm fluids and suctioned them out to clear the crop.
There was some formula in there since his feed over five hours ago.
I also got some small pieces of watercress leaves out, only about three tiny ones.
I have tried to get the remaining seeds up but it's harder as they're not as big and when he struggles, I lose them again. Worried that they're still in there after all this time.

So disappointing day really as I had hoped he'd pass that thin formula easily.
He's now had 7mls of warm ACV water. I'll wait the four hours and see if it moves through.
Do I then try some more liquid feed?

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I want you to eliminate the Kaytee for the moment altogether, and just use the soy formula alone for today and see how that goes, If this seems to flow better tomorrow I want you to mix the soy using an extra 1/2 scoop of powder to mix, so if the instructions are 1 scoop to 30mL of water, I want you to use 1 1/2 scoops to make it more calorie dense. When using just plain soy formula, the droppings are not going to look like much, so don't mind this, as long as his crop is emptying and things are moving out the back end, we are good.

With you still pull out watercress and seeds from day ago, something is definitely wrong, so we are going to have to unburden the GI tract as much as we can for the time being, keep him on his meds, try and keep him supported/comfortable and hope things start to improve for him.

Would your vet be open to prescribing you some Metoclopramide, this medicine helps with GI motility and I have found it to be of benefit in these GI stasis cases.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

This was Dusty a few days ago, standing and walking fine. Just started to explore outside his nest for a few seconds. I wish I knew what happened to him/her.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Would your vet be open to prescribing you some Metoclopramide, this medicine helps with GI motility and I have found it to be of benefit in these GI stasis cases.
> 
> Karyn


I'll certainly go and ask as I'm getting very concerned for him now.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> I'll certainly go and ask as I'm getting very concerned for him now.
> 
> Janet


Janet, I also worry sometimes in these cases just how well oral meds are being absorbed, do you think your vet would also be open to preloading 5 syringe doses of Baytril that you could give IM over the next 5 days, 4mg per dose. If he agrees, have him add 0.10cc saline in with the Baytril as this will buffer it a bit and cause a little less muscle irritation.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'll phone in the morning and make an appointment taking this info with me.
I don't know if you have seen in previous posts that he sadly hasn't been open to me suggesting things on other occasions. If he won't do so I'll try and see if I can find another vet practice somewhere else.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> I'll phone in the morning and make an appointment taking this info with me.
> I don't know if you have seen in previous posts that he sadly hasn't been open to me suggesting things on other occasions. If he won't do so I'll try and see if I can find another vet practice somewhere else.
> 
> Janet


OK, I understand. Almost always when offering advice, I ask myself what would I do if the bird were in my care or is there anything else I would be doing myself I am not mentioning, these two suggestions are what came to my mind that I would be doing, so I thought I would share them with you.

The dosing for the Metoclopramide is 0.50mg/kg, q8-12h.

Good luck,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm glad to have something to actually put to the vet as I have far more faith in your advice Karyn than his, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to him. I will go and tell him what we've tried to date and anything if you think would be a help I will definitely mention to him.
I don't have a lot of faith in him being able to diagnose a specific illness or problem from scratch, ( as far as pigeon goes as he is very knowledgable obviously) but if I can show him that certain things have already been tried then I'm hoping he might take your suggestions on board rather than starting at the beginning.

It's frustrating but I will give it my best for the baby's sake.

Thanks for your time as always.  

Janet


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## sev3ns0uls (Jul 2, 2011)

hey, remember last time we talk about a lump in both of out birds.?

well, here mine is.











The lump is smaller now and and you barely cabt see it anymore. she is doing great!


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Wow...she's lovely. I can't see any evidence of a lump now either.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I took him to the vets today armed with the info about meds.
The vet gave him a thorough examination and I gave him the history of treatment so far.
Dusty has weakened considerably since yesterday sadly.

I asked about the Metoclopromide and he did take notice and was aware why it was being considered but he wasn't thinking it was neccessarily crop stasis and so decided to go down the infection route and has prescribed Flagyl. I didn't say he was already on that as he was giving me some more which is always useful.
So no go with that treatment unfortunately, not that I was completely surprised. Never known him take up any suggestion yet. 

Of course he may be right so I'm going to carry on with the Flagyl and Baytril.
He also agreed with with tubing him the Soya formula, little and often with supportive care.
I'm to go back if he doesn't improve.

He mentioned that it might also be fungal infection which he said was hard to successfully treat, so I don't have a definite diagnosis we can work on but am keeping up with what we've started and praying hard.

He also wondered if the lack of use in his legs might be neurological if he fell from his nest box. I'm just hoping it's the weakness as he was still walking for a day after I found him. 

He's gone quieter since he came back from the vets and is lying on his side quietly on some heat now.

Keep your fingers crossed for him now, he's got a big fight if he's going to pull back as he's so thin.
I'll keep you posted,

Thanks again

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's at times like these that I often totally switch antibiotics, like from a fluoroquinolone (Baytril) to something like a Tetracycline (preferably Doxycycline), or even a Penicillin (injectable).

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, what you are dealing with with Dusty, is what I consider to be one of the harder cases to deal with. A declining bird, with GI stasis, that is not appearing to respond to the treatment so far being offered.

The soy formula will help a good deal, as it will contain roughly the same amount of food calories that regularly mixed Kaytee would (around 1kcal/mL) when mixed at 1.5 strength, as I suggested. If you can get small and frequent meals into him this will at least help him hold his body weight and not waste away while we are trying to find a solution for him.

When in these situations, a few days on particular meds and no real improvement, I sit down and try to reevaluate my thinking on what I am using to treat with and try and broaden my thinking on what may be causing the problem.

At this point, a bird not responding the way I would like to antibiotic treatment, I would be adding in the thought (as your vet has now mentioned) of a possible fungal infection and wondering as well if this could be viral in nature. There in not much to be done if it is viral, except to offer support and guard against secondary infections.

If it is fungal, then we have so far not offered any treatment for this possibility (other than the ACV) and it may be worthwhile treating Dusty for this possibility. I had a look on Google UK and found that Fluconazole (Diflucan) is sold over the counter there, as a women's treatment (I don't think your vet will prescribe it). Fluconazole is a systemic anti-fungal that will treat for a number of fungal infections in birds, including candidiasis and aspergillosis, I have used this particular drug a number of times myself with no bad affects to the birds it was used on.

http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/thrush-oral-capsule-containing-fluconazole_1_10278.html

What I also might be thinking of doing at this point may be a switch in antibiotics from Baytril to a penicillin based med, and it would have to be Synulox, as to keep it simple, it will offer better coverage than plain Amoxicillin. I mention this because I had dealt with infections before, that were not responding to treatment, that after sensitivity testing was done, show the bacteria were not sensitive to Baytril.

After reading your post, and thinking on things a while, these were the thoughts I had.

I see Pidgey has posted, while I was mulling things over, something along my same thoughts on a change in AB .

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

So sorry I haven't been back to respond until now. Horrendous time stuck in traffic for two hours for a journey that should take 30 minutes thanks to the mindless feral youths burning our city down.

So glad to get back and find Dusty settled and warm and still ok. I'd wanted to get another feed in tonight and that's delayed me now, I'm so mad.

I've just read through your replies thanks Pidgey and Karyn.
Right, I have just managed to get some Noroclav/Synulox last week thanks to a very kind person so do have it to hand if needed.
I've also been sent some Cotrim, human strength.
Also Nystatin. Tylan & Ronaxan/Doxycycline.(not sure how long I've had those but they're sealed ok).
That's to let you know what I do have to hand if needed.
I've also found some Antrobe25mg capsules, but don't know exactly how old they are.

I will have a look into getting some Fluconaxole asap, Thanks for sourcing that Karyn.

I'll just post this info in case you can give me some advice as to what might be good to switch him to and I'll look at ordering some of those meds while I'm on.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Do you know how to dose the Noroclav/Synulox already?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Would like you to confirm please.
Dusty weighed 150gms today according to the vet. Tablets are 50mg by the way

Thanks

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm showing 125 milligrams of pure medicine per kilogram of bird, twice daily.

So... (0.15 kilograms of bird) X (125 milligrams of medicine per kilogram of bird) = 18.75 milligrams per dose to this bird.

What's your formulation (pill, capsule, liquid, etc.)?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

50mg tablets.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, then... if you could chop the tablet up so that you get two and a half doses out of one tablet (four tablets for five days), then you'd be just about right.

Best of luck!

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks so much for that.

Am about to give him his meds so will swap him onto Synulox and drop the Baytril.

The vet told me to give him 0.2ml Flagyl once a day. What do you think to that dosage as I'd just increased him to 0.2ml twice a day.
Shall I stick to the double dose now he's going onto a different combination?

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I'm not really thinking that he's got a problem that the Flagyl will help with, actually. It's not going to be a problem to keep giving him the stuff, though--I don't think the two drugs will interfere in any way.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Ok..well I've just given him the Flagyl and am going to sit down now and work out the Noroclav dissection.

Just to say, I've ordered the Fluconazole that Karyn mentioned, so will say when it arrives, maybe we will see some change for the better by then, but at least I'll have it to hand if needed.

Thanks for the help, will give him another feed and put him to bed. 

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, the dosing Pidgey gave for the Synulox is what I would have suggested as well, and I agree as well it would not be a problem keep him on the Metronidazole at present.

It might be an idea to add in the Nystatin for now, as it will treat for a superficial candida infection (100,000IU/mL @ 0.30cc twice a day). So you know, I recommended the Fluconazole because if there is a fungal component to Dusty ills Nystatin will only treat any yeast it comes in contact with and is ineffective against Aspergillus, but Fluconazole with treat both superficial and systemic yeast infections and also can be used to treat Aspergillus. I put the link up to the Fluconazole there to show I believed it is an OTC medicine in the UK and should be able to be had at any drug store, but it may have to be asked for at the pharmacy counter if it is not on the shelf.

Try and keep the meals as frequent as his crop empties so we can try the best we can to keep some weight on him.

EDIT: Janet, this is a later edit after thinking about Dusty for a while. I think we should stop the Metronidazole and start him on the Antirobe 25mg (Clindamycin) you have (along with the Synulox). I earlier mentioned that I had a bird that was not responding to Baytril and that sensitivity testing showed that the infecting bacteria was not sensitive to Baytril. What I did not mention that the infecting bacteria showed sensitive only to two antibiotic tested, one was Clindamycin and the other as Chloramphenicol, Since I wouldn't mind giving Dusty the broadest coverage possible with the antibiotics you have on hand, this for me would do this, you would give 1/2 of the Antirobe pills you have (12.5mg) once a day, I would crush the 1/2 pill, add it to 5mL of formula, tube to the crop. Please confirm the pills you have are indeed Clindamycin as you spelled the name "Antrobe".

The one other thing I can think of trying is to follow his keel bone down to where it ends at the soft abdomen, and feel where the ribs end at the sides and massaging and squeezing in on his sides, where the ribs end, on the chance there is something struck in his ventriculus that is causing it to have stopped functioning right and doing this may free up anything impacting the organ. You want to of course not be so aggressive as to cause discomfort to Dusty, but on the other hand you want to be firm and deep enough to press in on the ventriculus to move things around a bit, you would do this on an empty crop.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Good Morning,

Just read your post Karyn re the meds.

To confirm it is Antirobe I have. I just need to say though that I have no idea how old these are.
I have three capsules of 25mg that Cynthia sent me easily a couple of years ago to have in stock but I haven't used. Not in a container so have no expiry date for those.
Then I also have seven 75mg capsules that someone had for their dog and they were issued to them December 08. So not sure what the expiry date would be on those.
Just thought I'd mention that to see whether you think they'd still be viable.

The Nystatin is ok.

I've ordered the Fluconazole on line so will have that soon.

Dusty's doing ok and was quite perky when I fed him this morning. Still just lying propped up with his legs out in front of him. This seems to be the only way he'll rest. If I position him with his legs under him he just keeps trying to push himself up, so I've let him lie as he wants so he'll not use all his energy up.

I felt his crop before I fed him and felt at least one seed, there maybe more but at least the crop was empty of fluid. I'll try the massage you described before I feed him next time.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

What Cynthia sent you should be fine and you can start with those, which will be enough for treatment for almost a week and we should have an indication by then if the change in meds is helping.

Glad the formula is making it through and he seems perky this morning, this is really important as it will buy us time to continue to work to get Dusty better. Since he has not regurgitated in a few days now, and the 7mL is going through OK, you can take it up to 8mL next feeding to day, then to 9mL tomorrow, then to 10mL the following day and stop there. This will get a little more food into him and stretch the intervals out a bit between feeding to give you, and him, a bit of a break from all the tubing. If you find for any reason it seems a lesser amount was moving better go back down to where you felt it was moving better. 

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

I'm pleased he certainly has passed a lot of poops, albeit wet and green. I've had to change my trousers twice today already when he's caught me out.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> I'm pleased he certainly has passed a lot of poops, albeit wet and green. I've had to change my trousers twice today already when he's caught me out.
> 
> Janet


This good to hear, the lots of poops part, not the having to change part . As I mentioned before, while on the formula, you can't read too much into his droppings, as they will look a mess, the important part is the good movement through him.

Thanks for letting us know.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've just found a worrying scab on Dusty's wing joint. The surrounding area is yellow under the skin.
Is this an infection? The pictures maybe too large to see clearly. If so I'll load them as thumbnails and post again.

View attachment 20832

View attachment 20833


The underside of his wings are sore but I think that's more likely from him scratching when he's been frantic in trying to right himself when he's gone headfirst in his box.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's inflammation (signs of, anyhow), cause unknown. I'm not having the easiest time figuring out where that spot is on the wing from those pictures, though. Does he use his wings to prop himself up sometimes?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry I need to take one further back. I think it's the elbow joint.

He's permanently sitting on towels in a shoe box so can't get about so that's why I reckoned the soreness on the underside of the wings is self inflicted from his claws.
He was a dirty little bouga when he was in his nest and I had to clean him out every couple of days as he would be sitting in his own mess. If he scratched his wings when he first fell, his claws won't have been the cleanest I don't suppose.

The scab on the elbow is on the top of the wing so the two problems probably aren't connected.
I'm just going to feed him so I'll try a better picture.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

battery's gone on camera. just charging it to get new picture.

J


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well... if it's on the topside then it's possible he's got some kind of septic arthritis. That would be why we're changing his medication.

Pidgey


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

My 2 survived 1-1/2 days without parents


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, good find, as Pidgey mentions could be some kind of septic arthritis, that could be also affecting his whole system. I am really hoping the change in meds, and being fairly aggressive with dosing, will start to have a positive effect in the next few days for Dusty.

Will wait for better photos,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Have taken new picture of location of scab.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, very good shot, not sure what that is, but it sure looks like something being caused by an as yet undiagnosed infection. Let's see what Pidgey thinks, my fingers are crossed he starts to respond well to the meds. He still looks bright in his face, which is good to see.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

Yes it's quite scarey now for him. I've stayed up to read about septic arthritis and it's showing a lot of Dusty's symptoms.
I was staying up late to get another feed in him but I had a look at his crop under his plumage and it looks quite puffy and opaque, so just gave him his Synulox and a few cc's of warm water, and have put him to bed.
I've had him out with me all evening in my hands and he's still lively and if I hold him upright he has a lot of strength in his legs, but he can't hold himself up at all. It sort of fits in with the possible diagnosis Pidgey mentioned in one part I read.

I just wanted to double check if I was to drop the Flagyl now. He's had Antirobe and Synulox today and did have a dose of Flagyl this morning before I put him on the Antirobe.

My bed is calling me, so I'll sign off for tonight and update tomorrow.
thanks again,

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, it's fine that you gave him the Metronidazole today, but you can stop that now. You are to give him the Synulox, as Pidgey recommended, 18.75mg q12h (so, twice a day), the Antirobe 12.5mg q24h (so, once a day) and the Nystatin 0.30cc q12h (so, twice a day).

I still wouldn't mind if you could still see about getting him some Metoclopramide (Reglan) to help with his GI motility, not a must have, but may be helpful right now.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dusty's update.

He's his perky little self still and hasn't declined any, in spirit anyway.
Weight today, (on my scales not the vets), is back to 180gms.

I'm posting a picture of his crop though as it's looking a bit strange. Have only fed him twice so far as I'm not sure what's going on with his crop.
View attachment 20858


I let him go on the floor for a short while earlier to see what he could do.
He's still very unstable but is trying to walk and manages a couple of steps then falls backwards. Then sits with his legs out front. It's very hard to watch him knowing he could walk a week ago, he's very frustrated.
I took a video to post but it's still uploading so will put it on when it's done.

With his crop as it is, I don't know how much he's getting as far as meds go, but am following what you suggested and hoping for the best.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, hard to tell from a photo what is going on with the crop, what are your concerns, as the formula will be cream in color and would look like this through the skin of the crop, is that formula we are seeing through the crop wall? That he is back up an weight is a positive, even adjusting that some of this weight may be food going through him. 

I look at it as I am glad he is hanging in and giving us a chance to try and get him sorted out, he is a true little trooper. It may take some time for him to make up the ground he lost, we just have to be patient.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

That sharp change in the feathering around that deal looks especially weird... more pictures needed (unless the video takes care of it) without flash.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes I appreciate it's hard to see via a picture. To be honest I'm not sure if that is formula I'm seeing through the skin as it doesn't move and it's looked the same since last night. I thought if it was food then it would have altered in appearance. I was a bit concerned as I last fed him 7 hours ago and it still looks the same. Just wanted to pass it by you in case it showed up a problem.
No worries, I'll feed him as normal as I don't want him to fall back in weight and he's going frantic in my hands ATM so maybe he's hungry!
It looks odd as it's so puffy, but maybe it looks worse as he's so thin around his keel.
I'm turning into a bit of a worry wort with him, I'm so desperate to get him right.

Thanks for that Karyn,

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Me, I'd be putting a little Nystatin down him with his food, just in case he's got an immune problem and is getting some inflammation of the crop (ingluvitis--the technical name for the crop is the "ingluvies") due to a fungal infection. Normally, by the way, there's kind of a constant conflict between bacteria and fungi in the GI. Many of the good bacteria actually produce a small amount of hydrogen peroxides as a byproduct, which keeps bad fungal growth in check (weird, huh?) and that's one of the reasons why it's a good idea to treat with probiotics.

When the ingluvies gets certain kinds of inflammation, it can gain a "Turkish towel"-like texture due to the change in the tissue that occurs from the irritation. That could be what you're seeing there, but it would be impossible to tell without endoscopy or a biopsy. Also, it almost looks like the bottom of the crop is hanging (for lack of a better word) a tad lower that it oughta'.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry Pidgey, just read your post.

the video only shows the problem with his legs.

I wet the feathers around his crop to take the picture but there are no feathers underneath at all. Didn't use a flash on that one.

Here's another one I took, probably not much better. tell me if you want another one.

View attachment 20859


Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, I think he is on Nystatin, Janet, please confirm this. Did you get a chance to check whether the Fluconazole I linked was available at other drug stores OTC?

What doe it feel like if you palpitate it? Is it soft/hardish feeling, does it squish to the side if pressed/gently squeezed, is it loose... can it be moved up the crop wall inside? Gentle with all of this.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There is an area down the middle that doesn't feather in so much, but you don't usually see it. You can often see it on brooding hens, though...

Other reasons for there not being feathering is underlying inflammation, especially chronic. This does look a little odd to me, I'll admit, but it doesn't look near as big as the huge, extended crops that you see where people start putting them in crop bras to bring the size down. How big does that actually feel?

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Me, I'd be putting a little Nystatin down him.
> Also, it almost looks like the bottom of the crop is hanging (for lack of a better word) a tad lower that it oughta'.
> 
> Pidgey


Did start him on Nystatin this morning but gave it half hour before his feed. Better to put with food?

Yes, I agree about his crop hanging.My daughter said he looked like he had 'boobs' when she took the picture for me. 

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The crop is usually somewhat attached to the outer skin by way of fascia and, as such, doesn't really move around much. That said, you can usually move the contents around but they'll go right back to where they were as soon as you let off. A crop bra actually modifies the crop over time by taking the stress off and allowing the body to minimize the overhang by way of shortening the crop membrane and overlaying skin. That takes some weeks to do, generally. Not sure if it's needed here--another way of doing the same thing in such individuals is many small and frequent meals. Here, of course, you're trying to actually put weight on the bird so that's not of much use.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

amyable said:


> Yes, I agree about his crop hanging.My daughter said he looked like he had 'boobs' when she took the picture for me.
> 
> Janet


Oh, that's _udder_ nonsense!



Pidgey the Punster


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Oh, that's _udder_ nonsense!
> 
> 
> 
> Pidgey the Punster


HA HA...I'll tell her that !


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I've resorted to smaller feeds again as it doesn't look totally empty between feeds.

Right, this is very difficult to describe but I've tried to get a look at the whole chest area. It look as if there are what looks like air bubbles in the crop if I gently press.'it's very soft, can't feel any fluid/formula although it's very puffy.
The cream parts don't move and all his skin all over his body looks quite red.

He actually has no feathers on his front/keel underneath.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, either now, or in the morning, tube this little guy 10mL of warm fluid, with an extra small pinch of baking soda, and tell me what you get out looks like.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Pidgey, I think he is on Nystatin, Janet, please confirm this. Did you get a chance to check whether the Fluconazole I linked was available at other drug stores OTC?
> 
> What doe it feel like if you palpitate it? Is it soft/hardish feeling, does it squish to the side if pressed/gently squeezed, is it loose... can it be moved up the crop wall inside? Gentle with all of this.
> 
> Karyn


Karyn, I didn't check OTC on that as I decided to order it on line straight away from the site you posted up. I've just checked though and it hasn't been dispatched yet so will pop to a chemist tomorrow and find out if I can get it.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Janet, either now, or in the morning, tube this little guy 10mL of warm fluid, with an extra small pinch of baking soda, and tell me what you get out looks like.
> 
> Karyn


Do you want me to suction it out again after?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Do you want me to suction it out again after?


Yes, exactly, like before. 

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

ok, will do it now.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

what I got out was cloudy white diluted formula, and a minute spot which might well have been blood, so tiny I can't be sure. I hope that wasn't me pinching him.

He's just gone frantic, squeaking and nuzzling my hands for food. he's never done that before.
Should I feed him?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yes. How long has it been since he's had seeds?

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes, feed him 7mL of formula, with 0.50mL of Nystain in it (did he get his other meds for the evening?). I just wanted to make sure there was not some "sludge" in there. Good sign he is interested in food.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Maybe we ought to do some of this by way of Caloric intake... how much dry powder are you giving him expressed in level teaspoons?

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, worked this out for Janet a little while ago, there will be 1kcal/mL, when the soy is mixed at 1.5 strength.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey,

last seeds feed was exactly a week ago from dad.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I would probably try to get more than 30 Calories through him per day, and even more if he could take it. A level teaspoon of dry Kaytee powder (or even cornmeal, for that matter) is about 10 Calories dead on. A food "Calorie" with a capital "C" is actually 1,000 physics "calories" with a small "c". A food "Calorie" is sometimes also called a "kcal", for which the "k" represents a thousand and the "cal" represents the physics "calories".

Anyhow, at his age, he should be burning quite a bit of Calories. I just got finished bringing a squeaker that size up to par (he was the very sick one with the bad biliverdinuria) with 60 Calories per day, so six level teaspoons of dry Kaytee powder delivered in three feedings per day.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If he is having a problem for which a crop bra would be the prescription for, I'd go ahead and give it a go and push his feeding up to get more Calories. There's a formula for that... gotta' go find an emaciation post...

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> Yes, feed him 7mL of formula, with 0.50mL of Nystain in it (did he get his other meds for the evening?). I just wanted to make sure there was not some "sludge" in there. Good sign he is interested in food.
> 
> Karyn


yes he's had his other meds. I give the Antirobe middle day as that's one dose per day. Is it best to space them all out as I gave the Synulox at the same time as the Nystatin. ( I gave him that away from his feed tonight before Pidgey said to mix it with his feed), will put that in feed tomorrow.

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Modified repost:

Anyway, I wanted to post some information for Moxie regarding how much to feed the bird so that it can maintain its energy level. The formula goes something like this:

(Taxonomic Constant) * (weight in kg)^0.75 * 1.5 * (Physiologic Factor) = Kcal/24 Hours

For pigeons, the best information that I've been able to find is 78.3 on the Taxonomic Constant. The Physiologic Factor comes from a table:

Physical Inactivity = 0.7 to 0.9
Head Injury = 1.0 to 2.0
Hypometabolism = 0.7 to 0.9
Severe Trauma = 1.1 to 2.0
Starvation = 0.5 to 0.7
Sepsis & Burns = 1.2 to 2.0
Mild Surgery = 1.0 to 1.2
Growth = 1.5 to 3.0

So, for this bird (that weighs about 180 grams, by the way) we'd tend to choose a couple of the physiologic factors and combine them. If we picked the Starvation and the Sepsis (infection) ones, we'd say 0.5 to 0.7 for the one and 1.2 to 2.0 for the other. If we pick the middle of each at 0.6 and 1.6, respectively, and multiply them together we'd get 0.96 (call it "1").

Therefore, we'd end up with:

78.3 * 0.18^0.75 * 1.5 * 1 = 32.5 Kcals, which is the same as 32.5 Calories.

Dry Kaytee is about 10 Calories to the level teaspoon, so we'd want to put about three (3) dry teaspoons of Kaytee through the bird in a 24 hour period. Now, that doesn't have anything to do with how thin the stuff is mixed or how often the meals are spaced--that's gotta' be determined by the person with the bird in hand due to whatever circumstances are involved.

Pidgey


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, because even Kaytee was not moving well through him, we moved Dusty to baby soy formula alone, and this seems to be working. We figured on starting with 4-5, 7mL meals a day, increasing 1mL per feeding each day up to 10mL per feeding, which will then be getting about 40-50kcal a day into him. Will up it to 12mL, then to 15mL once satisifed things are going well at 10mL.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Anybody up for trying a few seeds? If he's getting Nystatin, they won't really go bad in the crop...

I've had a whirlwind of stuff to take care of so I haven't been reading this as thoroughly as I should in order to be of any real use, you know...

Or, rather, I'm having a bit of trouble juggling all of the thoughts in my head and keeping it all straight.

Part of the problem of growing old...

Don't mind me--just go about your business, nod and occasionally tell me, "yeah!"

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

That's brilliant.

I just written a reply that disappeared before your post to let you know that on Karyn's recommendation I've swapped him onto Soya baby formula a few days ago. He was on Kaytee mixed with the Soya. To get the calories up we dropped Kaytee.
Karyn will be able to explain this better, but it was because he couldn't process enough kaytee and this milk has a higher calorific content as I'm mixing one & half times the scoop and it stays runny still, so it helped to get more through him.

Still need to up the intake by the looks of it if he can take it.

Janet

oops, thanks Karyn, glad you did that as I wasn't sure if I had explained it well enough.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Pidgey, when I have had one like this, I a quite reluctant to try seeds until I get some real weight back on them with formula. Also, before trying seeds, I generally will try moving back to thin Kaytee, then to normally mixed Kaytee and if both of these are not a probelm, I will try pellets and then to small seeds. With all, except the seeds, I know if things get jammed up again, I can suction out whatever I can and back off for a while, give the meds further time, and try again in 4-5 days. I know I have given seeds too soon in the past and spent days (and much lost weight) getting them going again.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Or, rather, I'm having a bit of trouble juggling all of the thoughts in my head and keeping it all straight.
> 
> Part of the problem of growing old...
> 
> Pidgey


Boy, you think you've got a problem, all I can say is thank God for you and Karyn for sticking with me through this.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well, Dusty's just looked up at me as if to say for heavens sake feed me. 

So stick with Soya then for now. as I've held back tonight I'll start him on 7mls again and build up again tomorrow.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dusty's doing ok today. Definitely cottoned on that I now feed him which makes it easier.

Have just had him outside for some sunshine so he can soak up some Vitamin D.  Also am trying to get him use his legs a bit. If I support his back end, he totters a few steps and has started to use his wings for balance.
He's fast asleep now so must have worn him out. Better feed him so he doesn't burn up those precious calories. 

Anyway, no decline which is the main thing.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, you are right, no decline is good to hear. Because of the question about the crop, I would continue with the 0.50cc of the Nystatin, instead of the prior 0.30cc, twice a day. Glad he is holding his own, keep us updated.. Fluconazole at other drug stores?

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> . Fluconazole at other drug stores?
> 
> Karyn


Sorry Karyn, Meant to post about this. Yes I am able to buy this over OTC, my supermarket Tescos does their own version. 150mgs Fluconazole.

Haven't bought any having ordered some already but at least I can get it quickly if needed.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Well Dusty's sort of doing ok.

Good news is he's starting to find his balance although it's wobbly. I've had him out every day for some physio and have been supporting his back end so he is in a standing position and getting him to put some weight on his legs.
Two days ago he couldn't stand at all, today he's managing to stay upright.
I've got him on the floor now and it's most peculiar to watch. He's actually walking but he takes two steps forward and then four backwards. He seems to struggle to go forward and constantly rocks side to side as if to keep balanced. He's just walked across the room to me but backwards all the way!  I wish my video would work.
It's a massive improvement from last week when he just fell on his stomach all the time, I'm so pleased to see him on his feet at all.

He's still 180 gms today. Always nagging for a feed but I still have this major problem with his crop and so am just feeding him about 8mls four times a day.
The crop still looks exactly the same, very puffy.

I have a theory but not being massively knowledgable on the finer points of anatomy, it's just a guess so would like to get an opinion on it. Where I go from here if I am right I don't know.
The crop definitely has formula in it all the time. a
Although he's obviously getting some through his system as he poops and he's not deteriorating in health now.
Earlier on I very gently manipulated the crop and took a look in his throat. I could see some Soya milk come up in his throat. Don't worry I was very careful to make sure he didn't aspirate!
So what I can see through his crop skin is formula. The other night I thought I could see air bubbles or liquid moving in there, but it's still there in the morning, so never really empties.
Am I right in saying the crop is made up of two layers?
If so there has to be a hole or tear inside as this liquid looks as if it's inbetween the two layers as the skin looks so opaque. Does this sound feasable?

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If there was a rupture of the crop (which is merely a wide spot in the esophagus) and actual food got between the crop and the outer skin, it would rot out the overlying skin and eventually dump out as the dried scab-like mess "let go". What you'd have at that point would be a fistula, which would eventually close albeit a messy affair. You'd be able to watch the overlaying skin just get worse and worse off if that's what you're seeing.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I managed to find a vet across the city that was listed on an avian list on the internet. They said they weren't avian specialists but do see birds on a regular basis, so I decided to take Dusty there rather than to my local vet just to get a different opinion.
I asked her to check out his crop after giving her the background history and having had a good look she reckoned it wasn't ruptured as she would have expected to see fluid further down into his belly area. She thinks it's fine and looks like this due to his liquid diet. I did say I was concerned as it never seems to actually empty but she thought it was ok. She said to maybe start to feed him pellets made up of moistened chick crumbs and followed down with a tube of water to keep it moist and see if it passed ok.
He pooped right on cue on the table and she was happy that things were obviously working in that area even though it was very liquid due to the diet again.
So hopefully she's right. I'm nervous about starting to feed more solids in case he blocks up but wondered what you think is the best way to progress with feeding now.

She also checked his wing joint where it had been swollen with the yellowing skin around it. That has healed up ok and the skin is a more normal colour again. There's just a dry scab left on the tip of the bone which will come off eventually.

He's pottering about and is standing for longer periods but still walks backwards a lot of the time which the vet noticed, but she said to keep giving him his regular excercise out of his box with support and hopefully he'll regain his balance as he gets stronger.

So hopefully his crop is ok and will start to look more normal when he gets on to a more solid diet, fingers crossed. 

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, my own personal preference would be to do as I suggested before, when it's decided to move Dusty back to more solid food. Please start with thin Kaytee (you can make it as instructed before with the soy for additional calories). If he can pass this, where it was giving him problems before, this would be a good first step. We can then start to slaowly thicken the formula up to where it would be, as if we were feeding a normal health squab. If he passes these tests, showing each time nothing is get backed up, then we can try pellets, then finally to small seeds then to larger seeds, then finally to a normal pigeon mix.

Do keep an eye on crop area in questions, although I am still not 100% certain what's going on there, I am not quite sure I share the vet's view if it were leaked formula, it would be farther down in the belly area.

Karyn


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Considering that the crop would be a bag hanging on our actual necks if we had the same structure in the same place, I'd say "belly area" is just a tad inaccurate. Even when they do need crop bras, it's just overhanging the huge-by-comparison breast muscles.

Anyhow, I remember a few times where I was making a mountain out of a molehill by not giving them enough food and just broke down and pumped them full. I guess I tend to regulate what goes in with what's coming out rather than actually feeling the crop to see how it's doing. Of course, you'd need solids going in to get solids out--don't know what soy would be like out of the back end.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes I wasn't too happy about moving straight back onto solid pellets at all. It's hard to get someone unfamiliar to appreciate just how backed up it was. I don't think she really took on board how poorly he had been, just that if she was happy his crop was ok then he'll deal with whatever they usually feed at this stage now. I'd be much happier if I found his crop looking a bit emptier in the mornings.
Dusty didn't help by pottering about the table quite happily squeaking that he was hungry. 
He's definitely much improved from a week ago but I still don't feel convinced he's back on a normal footing yet. It may seem over the top but I'm tempted to see if I can find another vet and ask the same question.

In the meantime shall I stick to increasing the amount of Soya on it's own, (he's having 10mls four times a day now) or start mixing in the Kaytee to see what happens from now?

Also can you just confirm how long he should stay on each of his different meds. (Synulox, Antirobe and Nystatin).

Thanks

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, there are not a lot of vets that have dealt with a pigeon with a static GI, so few understand the delicate dance that has to be done to get a bird through this. I can only tell you what I would do if he were mine and that is since I have him stable on the soy formula, I would try increasing the amount up to 12mL (@ 4 feedings will be 48 kcal day) a feeding working eventually to 15mL a feeding (@ 4 feedings, will be 60 kcal) what would be guiding me in trying to challenge his GI with some "real food" starting with the Kaytee would be his weight. IMO, I would like to see Dusty gain some more weight before we try and move him back to more solid food, so if things don't go as planned, at least he has a bit of reserves to fall back on.

We may be able to glean how his insides are doing based on how the boil on his wing are doing, is it healing over?

Will need to be on the antibiotics/Nystatin a few weeks, perhaps a bit longer, it really depends on his response to getting to a place where it is felt they are no longer of benefit to him and have done their job.

Karyn


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## bird brain (Aug 7, 2005)

Hi There, im sorry to hear your little pigeon is poorly, i read your thread, and they way you describe the way dusty is with his legs , sounds just like my pigie was when i firat found him (he didnt have all your bords other symptoms though) it was really strange the way he couldnt use his legs , he couldnt even sit with them under him, and they were sticking out in front of him, he could only walk if i supported him, when he could eventually stand on his own took he 1 step forward, and then kind of shuffled back, with strange jerky movements, on Helens and Cynthias advice i gave him calcium suppliment and after a few days his legs worked, it was amazing, im not sure if your little one has calcium deficiency (amongst his other problems) like mine did.
everyone Pigeon Talk is so helpful, i just thought id tell you my experience , in case it was of any help.
heres a link to the photos of pidgy when his legs were bad (he's not been well again lately so ignore the poopy pics on there =)

http://s1180.photobucket.com/albums/x410/tazbaby10/Pet pigeon/

Good luck with him
Take care
Les x


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

I'm more than happy to take your approach and build the feed up slowly.
I've given him 12mls today and keeping his meds the same.
I've just watched to video I took a few days ago of him trying to walk and it helps to see the improvement he's made on that today.
He's even started to flap his wings although he doesn't gain any height at least he's trying to build up to flying. 

The boil has healed, just a small scab on the joint and the skin is normal colour now.

*Birdbrain*

Thanks for posting those pictures of your bird. It's just as you described with his shuffling backwards and it is done with very jerky movements. Dusty is constantly trying to preen but falls over as soon as he turns his head to have a go. It's quite funny to watch really but frustrating for him I expect! 
I just have to start him off walking by supporting his 'bottom' then he's off and if he backs himself into a corner, he then manages to have a preen!
He may well benefit from some calcium supplement I just need to be careful when it's given at the moment as it may interfere with his ant-biotics.
I'm sorry pidgey is poorly again. I do hope he picks up soon.
I wouldn't know how to get Dusty through this without the help and advice I'm getting. It's the first time I've come across this problem. It's good to know pidgey pulled back up from being found in such a bad way. Well done and good luck with him.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I would not worry much about calcium right now, as the soy formula Dusty is on will be providing him with therapeutic levels of calcium (as well as vitamin D3, so it is assimilated right). I think slow and steady is the right course in bringing him back and all we can do is look for signs we are on the right course. He is starting to walk again, flapping his wings, is bright and interested in feeding and the wing boil has healed over, all good signs, IMO. Let's give him to later in the week and if you want we can challenge him with some thin Kaytee and see how he responds, or we can leave it a bit longer, he is in your hands, so your have to feel the energy he is giving off to you on what his body can start to handle.

I forgot to give you my thoughts on your asking about a second opinion on the crop. If you can find a vet that know something about birds, then this is what I would do myself, but has to be avian knowledgeable, no sense wasting your time with someone who does not have a real clue.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Dobato said:


> you have to feel the energy he is giving off to you on what his body can start to handle.
> 
> Karyn


Boy has Dusty got some energy now!! 
He's been sitting on my shoulder while I type but I've had to put him on the desk now as I'm going deaf from the squeaking and my ear's sore from being pecked. Now he's running up and down my desk trying to pick up anything he can...
c, rh c. ( these last few randoms letters are Dusty's own typing as he's now running over the keyboard). 
My dogs gone and hidden under the desk to get away from the noise.
What more can I say Dusty's doing great!!

Now he hasn't actually put on any weight although I've increased his feeds to 12mls and will do five today. Tomorrow I'll give 15mls, but I think I might have to be brave and try the Kaytee mix very soon.
I know squeakers do constantly squeal and pester for feeds but he's still doing it when I've gone out of range so maybe he needs something more soon.
His balance is also getting better and he's preening ATM without falling over which is a first today ;
jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjgyn-[[[-

( sorry he's typing again)!

So a good day and just wanted to share his progress. 

Janet


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## kalel (Oct 14, 2008)

he or she looks so sweet on the keyboard! hope dusty keeps getting better


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, thanks for the positive update on Dusty. We can try another little trick to try and get some weight back on him by getting more calories into him. When you make the formula, I want you to add 0.50cc (1/2mL) of very fresh olive oil to each feeding. To make sure it is emulsified well into the formula, measure out the amount of formula you are going to feed, then add the olive oil to this, now use a 5-10cc syringe to draw the oil/formula in and out quickly into what you measured the formula into to incorporate it well, then feed. I usually let it sit a minute after doing this, then I might give it a quick re-warming as well, even though at this age I am not as concerned about food temperature as with younger birds, it should still feel bit warm when feeding.

The 1/2mL of olive oil will represent 4kcal, so if you feed him 5 times during the day, no matter what the amount, this will represent 20kcal extra a day, this will be about a 30-40% boost in total calorie intake for the day for him. It's not really so much about what the food is, it's about calories, but we can test him whenever you want to challenge him with some thin Kaytee and see how it goes.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

That's brilliant, I'll do that and will report back.

Thanks

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Weighed Dusty today and he's gone up a bit to 190gms, so in the right direction.

He's having 15mls a feed but due to commitments am not managing to get five a day as I hoped, so maybe he'd have gone up more if I could do that.

I took him out to see his 'family' again today for a short while. Yesterday Prince, the dad just watched him from a distance and mum and step sister chased him off.
Today Prince obviously recognised him when he squeaked and did come down and attempt to feed him. Poor Dusty looked terrified, so I think he'd forgotten he was a pigeon for a moment.
Obviously I couldn't let dad feed but it was good to see that he still knew Dusty after all.
Just want to keep him comfortable about the place for when he eventually goes back to join them.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, this is what I have been waiting to hear, that he is not only stable, but has now started to add some weight back. When you are ready to try the thin Kaytee, instead of making the formula at 1 1/2 strength, as you are, make it as normal strength and use this to make the Kaytee with (continue to add the olive oil). I don't think at this point we will have to be too worried about thin Kaytee, as I think he may be able to handle it. Do this for a few days, then start to thicken it up a little each day, until it's at a consistency you would noramlly be using (back off if there is any real slow down of the crop detected). When he passes these tests, we'll try him with some pellets.

Glad to hear he is still being recognized, this think it's a good idea to have visits supervised by you (so he is not feed, as you just did), with his family, so re-introduction is not too stressful on him later.

Good job,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

Yes I think he's ready for the next stage as he's just been chewing my ear off in desperation and I only fed him two hours ago.

I'll follow your instructions and will let you know how things go. 

Cheers

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Sorry, meant to ask about meds.
He's been on Synulux, Antirobe and Nystatin for twelve days now.

Do I keep all these going for a while longer or should I drop any yet?

Thanks

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I would continue treatment for a little while yet. I will consult with Pidgey and figure out when it might be appropriate to stop. It's always a great sign when they want to be feed badly, seems we are making some progress, slowly but surely.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Update time! 

Dusty now weighs in at 210gms!!

He's doing well and I'm very slowly thickening up his Kaytee feed. His crop still never feels completely empty even after a night's rest but from what's coming out of the other end, I know food is getting through.

I've posted a picture of how he couldn't stand a while ago and how he looks today, and I had to post a picture of his lovely poops!!!!!!
the urates are a yellowy colour which I assume is from the Kaytee as the poop is now a browner colour having been dark green for weeks.

I've dropped the Antirobe med as I'd run out of the 25mg capsules. Just wondering about the Noroclav and Nystatin.
Also I have been very lucky to have been sent some Metoclopramide so have this to hand if needed from now on.



What a star you are Dusty. He does tend to stand with one foot in front of the other as you can see in the second picture but brings them together when he walks ok. Maybe that's a habit he's got into from when he was learning to balance again but he's much more stable on his feet now.
He can fly off my hands to the ground and flaps his wings like mad but so far hasn't flown upwards yet. I expect that will come when he has more excercise time out of his box.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, thanks for your post, I needed to hear a bit of good news and yours has brightened me up .

Well, we are getting there, he has come a long way, keep up the other two meds for a bit longer, especially in light that you mention the crop never feels entirely empty in the morning. What I would like you to do, very first thing in the morning, is to tube him 5mL of plain warm water with 1 drop of ACV added, swish this around his crop a bit, to do this I place my index finger and thumb on either side of the crop and give it a quick back forth jiggle for a second or two. Check it in 1 hour and see how it feels, and carry on as you have been doing.

Looking good,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

hi Karyn,

Ok will give his crop a swish & jiggle in the morning. 

Glad to be able to give you some good news. Hope your day gets better. 

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I did the warm water/ACV this morning.

He's such a wriggler so it's hard to see exactly how empty his crop is. By feeling I can tell it's quite empty but if I look under his feathers I can still see something moving under the skin. The crop has this slight overlap onto his breast bones that he had before and it's just there that I can feel a slight puffiness. I could feel a very small seed like thing at the bottom. Can't be sure it was actually a seed but seeing as he hasn't had anything except formula for a long time I can't see what else it could be. Maybe it's one that's been left inside from before.
He does potter about pecking at the floor so there's an odd chance he's found one but I don't think he'd be accomplished yet at picking up seeds as he hadn't got that far before he came inside for care.
I really wish I could find someone with avian knowledge who can look at his crop personally and say yes or no if it looks ok then I'd feel happy.
I'm taking a Collared Dove up to a rescue centre for another member in a few days. I might pop Dusty up there and ask them for their opinion as they deal with hand rearing with lots of pigeons and should know.

He's still fine and so I'll carry on as we are and see if I can get an answer about his crop's appearance as I can't get a better picture that would show it properly.

He weighed 225gms today, so still going up. 

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I decided to give Dusty's crop a rest overnight and this morning to see if it did eventually empty.
I did the ACV/water again this morning and by mid-day it felt empty.

As I was taking Colly, the Collared Dove up to a rescue centre today I took Dusty with me to get another opinion as to whether his crop looked ok.
She had a look and agreed there was nothing in there so I came home a fed him his normal Kaytee mixture. He was fine, just a bit miffed at missing a feed and having another ride in the car. I wanted to make sure there was nothing like seeds still in there before we go any further towards starting him on more solid food so I feel a bit more relaxed about it now.
So I'll try it a bit thicker again tomorrow and see how that gets through.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I think this may be the first time you have clearly said you think the crop was empty, this is very good to hear , also, that you received another opinion that there is nothing alarming that was observable going on with the crop. Just take your time with him, as you are doing, he is making good progress.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi, just wanted to update about Dusty.

He now weighs 265gms and is well. He's trying very hard to learn to pick up food but so far hasn't cracked it. Also still hasn't flown upwards but spends a lot of time helicoptering.

I seem to have come to a sticking point with his feeding. Unless I miss several feeds, his crop is never fully empty. I gradually thickened up the Kaytee and he is obviously getting food through as his poops are great but I kept finding he never really seemed to need four feeds. I decided to miss one feed out rather than keep pumping more food on top of what was still in his crop.
Two days ago I found he'd vomited some kaytee up during the night so now I'm only giving two 20mls feeds. His weight has stayed the same for two days, but at least hasn't dropped.

I was wondering how to proceed to see if his digestive system can cope with harder foods and eventually get him onto self feeding and possibly back to seeds again.
I made some really tiny Kaytee balls a few days ago as he wanted to try and pick up for himself, and so let him play with these. I don't think he actually managed to eat any but had fun trying.

Thanks

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I was hoping your next update on Dusty would have him over the 250g mark, and you seem to have managed it . The next step, at least if he were an adult, would be to start him on pellets, then to small seeds. then larger, then to a regular pigeon mix. Since he has not weaned as yet, I guess we need to start teaching him to wean on pellets, as pellets will break down if there are still any internal blockages and seeds will not, so we want to start first with pellets and see how that goes. Do they sell Zupreem natural pellets for parakeets where you are, they look like this:

http://www.petsupplies.com/item/zupreem-natural-diet-bird-food-parakeet/533535/

You can do the warm water, with a few drops of ACV, to help flush the crop periodically, and we can play with the concentration of the soy formula a bit that you are using to make the Kaytee to get a few more calories into him, to keep pushing his weight up. Flight will come with time, the helicoptering sounds encouraging, he just has had a hard time of it, and all in all, I think he has come a long way. Good job.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Karyn,

I managed to find the Zupreem on a wesite I get my Kaytee from so have ordered some.

That sounds ideal as the next step as he's really trying to pick up now.

Thanks again, will let you know how it goes,

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

amyable said:


> Hi Karyn,
> 
> I managed to find the Zupreem on a wesite I get my Kaytee from so have ordered some.
> 
> ...


Glad you found it, just a reminder to make sure they are the parakeet size, as other sizes are either a bit too big, or too small.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Unfortunately there wasn't one that actually said Parakeet but this one is for Cockatiels and Budgerigars. The Parakeet one said it was for Budgies as well on the front so I reckon this should be the right size food.
There was one for weaning and then others for larger Parrots. This one looked the most like the one you showed a link for.

Janet


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Just an update on Dusty.

He's not getting the hang of picking up food at all yet. 
He's been pecking around the floor for anything at all he can peck at for weeks so you'd think he's have sussed it out by now.
I've only ever had one young Woodie before that took forever to learn. I ended up taking him to a rescue centre so he could be with other pigeons and watch them as he was to be released in the end.
Dusty was very interested in the Zupreem pellets and tries very hard to pick them up. I've done the playing with my fingers and he comes over and tries. Also have placed them in his mouth to get him used to pushing them back with his tongue, but still no good.
I notice he pecks at very tiny specks on the floor so have smashed the pellets to make small fragments for him to play with.... still not got one.

So I'm still tubing him twice a day to keep his weight up and am putting him out with my other pigeons during the day to watch them.
One thing he has got the hang of is drinking thankfully. Mind you he always tries to get in the bowl for a bath as well. 

He's a bit frightened of the others when they rush around and so he loves to get back to his own box at night.
He really fights not to be tube fed now and struggles and hates me hand feeding him pellets so naturally he'd prefer to be feeding himself. He's a fiesty little character now (although loves to sit on my shoulder) so he's doing fine overall but I'm still desperate to see him actually swallow something for himself.

Will let you know when that eventually happens. 

Janet


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There was a bird on another forum named "Squabovitch" (if memory serves--it's been awhile) that couldn't seem to get the knack of eating. The caregiver eventually gave him to a rehabber with a loft and flight who, you just know, threw the bird in there to fend for itself. Within a short while we learned that Squabovitch had miraculously learned to eat on his own.

Hunger works. You just don't want to try it on a sick or emaciated bird.

Pidgey


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Tough love needed maybe.

Dusty is a bit behind on his development overall after his bad turn. Flying hasn't happened either yet.

I'll give him a good 'top up' over the weekend as his weight's around 270gms now and maybe give hunger a go for a day, or two if I can bear it. 

Janet


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Janet, do you have one of those plastic measures you sometimes get on the top of a cough mixture bottle (usualy marked in 5 10 15 20 ml sections)
you could try filling that with seed/pellets then offer it to him & peck into it with your finger.
Its small enough to hold up to him and let him get his whole beak in so he may have better luck getting them into his mouth, then hopefully move on from there.
Ive used one before on a youngster that just wouldnt use a dish, pecked around & played with seed on the ground but didnt eat it.
Because its small narrow and deep, the seeds more or less go into the beak when they peck & mine got used to it very quickly and was eating on his own a couple of days later.


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Yes I know the sort of thing you mean.
Will try that tomorrow. 

Thanks,

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I did have one hand raised baby that took a few months to eventually do well at self-feeding, but for the very longest time he would just "mouth" the seeds and then drop them. I kept at it with him, by pecking with him and placing food in his mouth, far enough back to swallow. Once he was at a weight where I knew he had some reserves, I did practice the tough love on him Pidgey mentions. My version was, once I could see that finally he was managing to swallow some of the seeds was mouthing on his own, was to go to once a day, late night feeding. I would feed him around 10-11 at night 25mL of formula, so that in the morning he would have an empty crop and one all day and evening to encourage him to self feed. I did make the Kaytee more calorie dense by using some soy, instead of plain water to mix it up with, so at least I knew in that one meal he was getting enough to sustain him until he was fully one line with eating.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,

Still no luck today.

He had vomited all his Kaytee from last night when I opened his box this morning. It seems to happen if I tube him any more than 20mls. I've been trying 25mls but as he's never completely empty even after going all day with no other feeds it's probably too much.

I made a point of spending as much time as I could with him today hand feeding him pellets and making sure I put them in his mouth as opposed to in his throat. Then sat and played with the pellets and he always wanted to try.
He had a good go at picking them up but still just drops them again. He seems fascinated by drinking water on his own now that's he's cracked that!
He really wants to feed himself, it's not from want of trying, bless him!

Well we'll keep at it and maybe tomorrow will be the day.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, I have had a few that could not be given more than 20mL without the possibility that some, or all, of it was going to be regurgitated back up, so if 20mL is the limit for Dusty, just go with that. Glad he has cracked drinking, I think Dusty is one of those cases that come along once and a while where you are just going to have to do things at his pace, in time (his time ) he will eventually get the hang of things.

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi,
Update time for Dusty. This little 'Bougar' still hasn't mastered the art of swallowing seeds. I tried all the suggested things so far, hand feeding, deep container, playing with seeds, starving, but sadly no luck yet.
I leave him out with the others all day now but have to bring him in at night to tube feed and give him a few more lessons.
If you watched him you'd think he was managing fine as he spends all his time pottering about pecking at any seeds he finds.
I've watched him up close and he picks them up but just drops them again, can't seem to get the knack of getting them into his mouth.

He's still not flying properly, but the other day I left him on the floor in the bathroom but when I walked past the window outside, there he was sitting on the window sill, so must have flown up that much at least.

He's lost almost all his tail feathers although they've not moulted out but broken off at the base. I wondered if he was lacking in something from his little setback. Also he's constantly preening but having had a good look through his feathers I can't see any signs of mites etc.

He is a very lively little soul though and seems very bright apart from being a bit slow at learning.
I caught him having a bath the other day with his dad.
My OH built an outdoor flight last week and so far my other birds seem very wary of going out in it unless I put some treats out to tempt them but Dusty was pottering about in there today.

So he's doing ok, but I wonder if he'll ever get the hang of feeding himself!!

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, whatever was wrong with poor Dusty, I do think it really has affected him in more ways than may be completely obvious. So I think, he is just going to get where he gets in his own time, and we for now, we just have to be happy he is with us to be able to try and do this . I really do think in time, he will get the hang of eating, especially if he is picking up the seeds, mouthing them and then dropping them. At some point, some will start to go down and he will make the connection, just keep placing seeds to the middle of his mouth where he will get a feel of them in there and then swallow them. Flying up to the window sounds like a good start for him .

Thanks for the update,

Karyn


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

*Important Update!*

Dusty can eat seeds!!!!!!

At long last he's cracked it. I couldn't quite believe it when I first saw it two days ago and have spent ages today watching him to be sure the seeds were really going down his throat. What a star!
He's lost quite a lot of weight though and gone from 265gms to 225gms as of today so I'm going to carry on tubing him once a day to try and get him back up.
He first picked up chopped Watercress stalks which all my others go crazy for. Then I really corrupted him and tried him with Hemp as again the others go mad for that and he managed those too.
The trouble is now he's very fussy and has a particular round brown seed he sorts out of the mix and then may try some other odd ones, but for now I'm happy he's got the hang of it.
Still doesn't fly up, just climbs up and flutters down so that's next on the list of 'to dos'. He can get up about a foot high but as the aviary is set up for disabled birds then he can get about using the ramps.
I've had to be tough with myself and start to leave him outside at night now. I do miss him here sitting on my shoulder, but I was worried he'd find it hard to integrate with the others soon.
He's quite confident now if the others try and get his seeds, he sees them off, although he's shaking as he does, but he's still my friend thankfully and will let me pick him up and have a cuddle just to keep me happy.
I can't believe how well he seems now even though he's like a perpetual baby, which I don't mind. His voice is breaking and he makes the weirdest sound.
I read back over his story and I remember I really felt I'd lose him at one point but I had such wonderful help and support and without all that I wouldn't have had a clue and thankfully it got him through.

Thanks so much, he's very special and I love him to bits.

Janet


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Janet, somehow I missed your post yesterday, this is just great news to hear , we knew he would eventually start to get there, must be a bit of a relief for you, I surely bet . I would also, to help get some weight back on him, do one late night feeding (I think you said his max was 20mL) making it more calorie dense using the soy to make the Kaytee. By going down in weight he lost muscle mass and once he build this back up he will start to improve with his flying abilities again.

Good job,

Karyn


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