# Swollen Feet



## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

One of my new Pletinckx arrivals has swollen feet at the base and i can tell theyre bothering him/her because he/she tries to sit down as much as possible. Im am concerned because i justlost one of the new arrivals Im not sure why though. It was havin diahhrea and was drinking fine but i dont think it was old enough for the guy to ship it to me. I tried to hand feed it seeds whenever i could but i guess it just didnt cut it. It drankwell and everything though.
SO i am really concerned about this bird wth the swollen feet. It looks healthy otherwise. The swollen part is the base/pad of the foot and it feels hot. What do i do? The birds eats and drinks healthy, i also wormed it when it arrived and applied scatt.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Almost sounds like pododermatitis (Bumblefoot) but you wouldn't usually see something like that in a young bird like that. He's probably going to need an antibiotic. Check out this link and scroll down to the bottom for pictures of a Bumblefoot treatment:

http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/november/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Management-Part-2.html

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixy said:


> One of my new Pletinckx arrivals has swollen feet at the base and i can tell theyre bothering him/her because he/she tries to sit down as much as possible. Im am concerned because i justlost one of the new arrivals Im not sure why though. It was havin diahhrea and was drinking fine but i dont think it was old enough for the guy to ship it to me. I tried to hand feed it seeds whenever i could but i guess it just didnt cut it. It drankwell and everything though.
> SO i am really concerned about this bird wth the swollen feet. It looks healthy otherwise. The swollen part is the base/pad of the foot and it feels hot. What do i do? The birds eats and drinks healthy, i also wormed it when it arrived and applied scatt.



Was the bird that died in the same group of birds that your new Pletinckx arrival was in? Did you get them all from the same breeder?

I would tend to think possible Paratyphoid if there are no broken bones
there. Have you checked for broken bones in that foot? Do you have Baytril
on hand?

fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I think I would start Baytril whether it's bumblefoot or paratyphoid, though it sounds like bumblefoot to me. I have a young roller hen that suffered two bouts of bumblefoot this spring and I've no idea why. I had never seen a case before and took her to my vet. He treated her with a new generation fluoroquinolone antibiotic (I forget the name). It cleared up but a few weeks later the _other_ foot became infected. It's odd because I clean my loft every day, etc. The second time I treated her with Baytril that I had on hand and it cleared up. Since Baytril is also the drug of choice for paratyhpoid (salmonellosis) I think it's your best bet in this case. 

The other thing that seemed to help my little hen was that I moved her from our main loft, which has a painted wood floor that I scrape daily to our old aviary, which has a dirt floor and wood shavings. Perhaps the shavings are easier on her feet. At any rate she hasn't had any more foot trouble since I moved her. Soft bedding material should help make your pigeon's sore foot feel better.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, the other bird did have diarhea and also subsequently died, so if from the
same loft, one would think about Paratyphoid w/the described symptoms. I 
would check for a break in that foot none the less.

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> Was the bird that died in the same group of birds that your new Pletinckx arrival was in? Did you get them all from the same breeder?
> 
> I would tend to think possible Paratyphoid if there are no broken bones
> there. Have you checked for broken bones in that foot? Do you have Baytril
> ...


The bird that died was in the same group. However, i dont think that there are any broken bones. 
I dont have any baytril either. 

ALSO i now have noticed that one of the black diamonds has droopy wings and they seem to lightly spasm?!? 
I have to say, when i got the first batch of birds from this breeder, they were GREAT and VERY healthy and also vaccinated for PMV. 

The second batch of birds wasnt so great. He didnt vaccinate them for PMV and now im having all these problems. I think that when he found out how old i was, he could send me any birds he liked. When igot the first four pletinckx there was thiss guy i met half way with and he had also picked up his birds along with mine. 

The four oringinal birds are doing great! vacc for PMV, paratyphoid, wormed, and have NO parasites. 

Now i get these birds and i am very discouraged!

OK, so i need to treat that bird for "bumlefoot" What do i need?

Now, i have to figure whats wrong with this other bird. 

I just cant wait till i get the breeders i need and dont have to intorduce any more and get some stable breeding going and maintain healthy birds.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

fp,
i still have that med that treats for a number of things like sinusitis and salmonilla. Vetafarm-something?
Should i try that witht he bumblefoot?


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

What exactly is the medication you have? Vetafarm makes a whole line of products. It sounds like your birds may have more than one problem.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie, without the lab work, we are looking at symptoms and possibilities.
I rather doubt that it is bumblefoot as you are having problems w/in a group
of birds all acquired at the same time. Bumblefoot doesn't show up in waves
through a loft or a 'source' of birds, i.e., a breeder.

Did you check to make sure that there were no broken bones in that bird's
foot that is currently swollen?

A light spasm in a wing could just be a wing twitch which pigeons typically
do for a variety of reasons. The fact that the wing is drooping may be
significant, however. I hope you are keeping these birds isolated for 6 weeks from your resident loft birds.

To treat for Paratyphoid (which does show up in an Articular form which
affects joints in the wings and legs/feet, the medication of choice would
be Baytril. Paratyphoid also shows up in an intestinal form which will
give a bird diarhea. It will eventually kill a bird if left untreated and can
be brought into a loft in many different ways, one of which would be through
the presences of rodents, either rats or mice. Once in a loft, it will spread
through a loft and can infect one, two, three, and more until treated and
the loft put on a hygiene plan. 

Bumblefoot is not common in smaller birds as compared to some of the larger
birds who are noted for getting the problem. It wouldn't sweep through a 
loft in a typical situation as there are mechanics to how it develops in a foot.

fp



Pixy said:


> The bird that died was in the same group. However, i dont think that there are any broken bones.
> I dont have any baytril either.
> 
> ALSO i now have noticed that one of the black diamonds has droopy wings and they seem to lightly spasm?!?
> ...


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie, here's a link to the Pigeon Supply Houses that is in the Resource Section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

In the very last post from Treesa, there are three links listed all of
which carry Baytril in one form or another. You might find the pills
to be easier for you to dispense to your birds. Enroflaxyn is the generic
form of Baytril.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie, if you post what the medication says on the container, we would better
know how to direct you...

In the meantime, here's an example of what I'm referring to:

http://www.vitakingproducts.com/storefronta.htm

Scroll down to Divet pills, Enroxil 5% Powder starts the section on 
that ordering page for Baytril products. Enroxil is a generic form of
Baytril. 

If you don't have Baytril on hand, I'd call one of the links Monday
morning and order it and have it shipped Overnight to you. If 
you want expedited shipping, you have to do this w/a phone order
normally.

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Ok, what i have is Amtyl. I just want to see if anything i have on hand will work before i buy more.
Thanks


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Amtyl is a combination of "Amoxicillin" Trihydrate and "Tylan" Tylosin Tartrate
and is especially recommended for respiratory illnesses.

Baytril is really the medicine you want this time around.

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Will this work?
Enroflaxyn Tablets -- Effective treatment for E. coli or paratyphoid. 1/2 tablet in the morning and 1/2 tablet in the evening down the throat for 5 to 7 days. This is a 7.5 mg. dose.

I cant find bayrtil anywhere and its hard to find the generic for you suggested.eek!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixy said:


> Will this work?
> Enroflaxyn Tablets -- Effective treatment for E. coli or paratyphoid. 1/2 tablet in the morning and 1/2 tablet in the evening down the throat for 5 to 7 days. This is a 7.5 mg. dose.
> 
> I cant find bayrtil anywhere and its hard to find the generic for you suggested.eek!


Yes, if you take a second look at post #10, this is one of the generic names
for Baytril. The 1/2 tablet am/pm is based on weight of the bird, so if you
can get a weight on the bird, we can possibly fine tune the dose rate.

If Paratyphoid, you will need to treat longer than one (1) week to clear 
the bird(s) of the carrier state. I've read recommendations of 3 weeks and
also seen some folks recommend 4 wks. So figure on treating the bird or
birds in question for three weeks minimum and get a weight on the birds
while waiting for the meds to come in. You can pick up an analogue set
of scales that shows gram and ounce delineations for around $10-15 bucks
at Walgreens....

Again, yes, that is the medication that I'm referring to.

fp


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## warriec (Feb 2, 2007)

if the swollen foot is bubble foot you must take it to the vet asap. they will cut it and drain it and start on antibiotics. takes ablut 3 weeks to heal.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, warriec, Pixy never did describe it any further than in the first post. I couldn't tell if it was one foot or two, for sure, nor exactly where and how the swelling was. I was hoping that Pixy would go to that one link, scroll down, see the Bumblefoot entry and say something like "Oh, that doesn't look anything like mine!" or "yeah, looks something like that... "

Anyhow, do you see much of that there in Sri Lanka?

Pidgey


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

I agree with fp. Enroflaxin is generic for Baytril and I've used it myself with good results. I also would recommend keeping the pigeon on it for 4 weeks in case it's Salmonellosis you're dealing with. My vets have prescribed it that long in birds with entrenched infections.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Well, warriec, Pixy never did describe it any further than in the first post. I couldn't tell if it was one foot or two, for sure, nor exactly where and how the swelling was. I was hoping that Pixy would go to that one link, scroll down, see the Bumblefoot entry and say something like "Oh, that doesn't look anything like mine!" or "yeah, looks something like that... "
> 
> Anyhow, do you see much of that there in Sri Lanka?
> 
> Pidgey


Ok, sorry guys. Ive been busy with school. 
I dont think it is bumble foot because both feet are swelled. They are swelled at the base of the feet on the "pads". Sorry!


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Birdmom4ever said:


> I agree with fp. Enroflaxin is generic for Baytril and I've used it myself with good results. I also would recommend keeping the pigeon on it for 4 weeks in case it's Salmonellosis you're dealing with. My vets have prescribed it that long in birds with entrenched infections.


I am going to be purchasing the Euroflaxyn? Well, whatever the name was. Im glad to hear you had good results with it. Thanks


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

I have used high powered microscopes in Bio class. Do you think it wold help at all to take a peek at the poops under one?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

It's knowing what you're looking for in a case like that which is the problem. Usually, there's so much bacteria in normal poop that you just can't tell the good guys from the bad guys very easily. I once detected a high probability of a pathogenic bacillus (bacteria shaped like a capsule-type pill; oblong) infection from a crop swab by way of the high motility (the suckers were movin' on like they had someplace to get in a hurry) of the bacilli that I was watching in a wet-mount under oil (slide with a droplet on it sandwiched between the actual slide and the coverslip). From that I decided to start that particular bird on Baytril very early in the game--the bird was barely showing any symptoms at that point.

What we usually see with Paratyphoid is the actual swelling of a joint in the wing or leg but it's not typically bilateral (both feet, in this case)--it's almost always on one side (odd, but even the books talk about that being the norm). The idea that the feet are both swollen under the center is kinda' a new one on me. Is there any way you could post a picture of that?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess what I'm starting to wonder is if it's gout caused by a kidney disease. Gout is the buildup of uric acid crystals in tissues where they wouldn't normally be. If you were going to do an actual microscopic test, the one you'd want to do would be a fine-needle aspirate taken from the middle of the swelling on the feet--that means that a syringe with a fine needle would be inserted to draw out some of the built-up fluid. You'd put that on a slide and check for a lot of urate crystals. That's more for a vet to do, frankly. Is that an option here?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There's a disease that Cynthia (cyro51) touched on recently that used to be called Streptococcus bovis but now it's Streptococcus gallolyticus (real improvement, huh?). Anyhow, she talks about it here and there's a link to follow:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=231367&postcount=42

If it were that one, for instance, Baytril would be the last medication you'd use.

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually, Warriec is correct that if Bumblefoot, yes, surgical draining/removal
of the affected tissue and antibiotic therapy is how it is addressed. None the
less, I just doubt it's bumblefoot especially given other symptomatic bird(s).

Here's a link to an article by Wings West on Paratyphoid/Salmonellosis:

http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

Note that there are several forms of the disease, and that similarly to pox virus,
a bird can have more than one form at a time and that birds in a loft can
display more than one type of presentation of the disease. Also note that
Paratyphoid, like many other illnesses that pigeons get, can colonize in the
organs.....specifically the kidneys and liver. 

If you aren't going to the Veterinarian, then please order the generic
Baytril, have it next day delivered as previously discussed, and begin
treatment as soon as it arrives. I would agree w/Birdmom that in this instance, to be safe, keep the birds in question on this medicine for 
four weeks. 

Please keep them quarantined from the rest of your birds and give them
dedicated utensils/feed & water bowls. Please get a gallon jug and mix
a solution of one half a cup of bleach to one gallon of water and use
this to disinfect with. Wash your hands thoroughly before and after caring
for these birds to make sure that you don't carry anything to them or from them to your other 'babies'.

Where breeders are concerned, and this is not by any stretch of the imagination all breeders, but the unethical
ones who knowingly sell sick birds.....Paratyphoid is a fairly common illness and one that can present w/a variance
of symptoms, yet w/more than just one bird.
fp


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## Birdmom4ever (Jan 14, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Note that there are several forms of the disease, and that similarly to pox virus,
> a bird can have more than one form at a time and that birds in a loft can
> display more than one type of presentation of the disease. Also note that
> Paratyphoid, like many other illnesses that pigeons get, can colonize in the
> ...


Good points, FP. Although it could be something else I tend to look for the most common things first. Given that both feet are involved and there are other symptoms in this group of birds, Paratyphoid seems a likely culprit. Unfortunately not all breeders vaccinate their birds. Even if they do, it's not 100% effective and if rodents have access to the loft or the feed Paratyphoid is likely, especially in young birds. 

Pixy, it would be best if you could get one or more of your birds in to see an avian vet, but if you can't, go ahead with the Baytril.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> I guess what I'm starting to wonder is if it's gout caused by a kidney disease. Gout is the buildup of uric acid crystals in tissues where they wouldn't normally be. If you were going to do an actual microscopic test, the one you'd want to do would be a fine-needle aspirate taken from the middle of the swelling on the feet--that means that a syringe with a fine needle would be inserted to draw out some of the built-up fluid. You'd put that on a slide and check for a lot of urate crystals. That's more for a vet to do, frankly. Is that an option here?
> 
> Pidgey


Hmm, well, i wouldnt be opposed to taking a sample... Is there not supposed to be an option as to wether id do it or not  ? Id just have to know what urate crystals looked like.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

I contacted the breeder yesterday and he is going to send me 10% baytril. Apparently it comes in liquid form, so he told me to just give two drops. Im assuming over so many days. Its not good to assume, but im sure/ also assuming that hes going to send me instructions.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pixy said:


> Hmm, well, i wouldnt be opposed to taking a sample... Is there not supposed to be an option as to wether id do it or not  ? Id just have to know what urate crystals looked like.


Yeah, there's an entire procedure for that. However, before we get into that, go look at this picture and note the differences:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/davehansen/gout.html

Can you describe in more detail or just post a picture on your website of the feet, especially the undersides if that's where all the swelling is?

Pidgey


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh man! The swelling doesnt look anything like the pic on that site. My birds feet look normal and you wouldnt notice unless you looked really close. Its where all th toes come together that is swelled. 
Also, i noticed yesterday that its poops smelt RANCID


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

How else would you describe the poops--do they resemble diarrhea or are they fairly solid? Are you even sure that there is swelling in the feet? Take a picture and post it?

Pidgey


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

I know there is swelling in the feet. I dont really have the time to take pics and am not sure where our camera is. The poop is not solid and is a dark green. I know because when i picked the bird up to examen it, it pooped on my leg. I KNOW theres swelling and hae to do something about it. I just hope it typhoid because i can treat that.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Does this bird spend most of its time huddled down? When hens sit on the nest for extended periods, they often save their poops up till they're big and stink. That said, is it possible that the bird's been 'saving up' for you?

Now, as other folks have already pointed out, it's pretty obvious that the bird is sick with something and it's not very often that Baytril won't get it, whatever it is, because Baytril is very "broad spectrum". The things we usually called "Paratyphoid boils" can be caused by a few different things and it's not an easy thing to prove what it really is or was without doing a necropsy on the bird which we're usually trying to avoid at all costs.

As I've pointed out, though, it's very unusual for those particular symptoms to appear in that particular part on both sides at the same time. That's what I'm puzzling over.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Pixy said:


> I just hope it typhoid because i can treat that.


Maybe. Sometimes the articular (joint) form of Paratyphoid is actually harder to treat because of the tendency for the actual bacteria to morph into the "L-form". What that means is that the cell of the bacteria is normally surrounded by a "cell wall" but in the L-form, they can have either no cell wall at all or have a partial cell wall. Also, in the joint form of the disease, they can get buried down in the bones in such a way that some antibiotics might not be able to get to the colony. In such cases, it may be necessary to shift to another antibiotic. Clindamycin can sometimes work for that. And, for those of you who question that, it's in the Big Book (AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES & APPLICATION, page 956, top left under the picture). It also mentions using a combination of Erythromycin and Ampicillin but Erythromycin isn't that useful in pigeons because there's something in their GI that tends to deactivate the oral form.

Hopefully, you'll get it with what you going to get from your supplier.

Pidgey


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Does this bird spend most of its time huddled down? When hens sit on the nest for extended periods, they often save their poops up till they're big and stink. That said, is it possible that the bird's been 'saving up' for you?
> 
> Now, as other folks have already pointed out, it's pretty obvious that the bird is sick with something and it's not very often that Baytril won't get it, whatever it is, because Baytril is very "broad spectrum". The things we usually called "Paratyphoid boils" can be caused by a few different things and it's not an easy thing to prove what it really is or was without doing a necropsy on the bird which we're usually trying to avoid at all costs.
> 
> ...


This bird is fairly young also, it wasnt a lot of poop eather, maybe a little more than a teaspoon. I too think its odd that it could be paratyphoid because it is on both feet on the same exact place. i just hope baytri will clear it up


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

> Erythromycin isn't that useful in pigeons because there's something in their GI that tends to deactivate the oral form.



Hi Pidgey, 



Oh heck, I did not know that...darn, would have been a nice medicine for some things too...


Is there something one can give with it or concurrently which would counter-act the GI compromise, safely?


Phil
l v


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sometime this evening, I'll put a link here to a Webshots page of the procedure for the fine needle aspiration technique that you'd use and pictures of what you're looking for in the case of gout. Personally, it's a job for a vet but you might be able to find something. 

You might also try putting Preparation H on the feet and making sure that the bird's in and very warm. That might help.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Here are the relative pages (procedure on one; picture #10.26 on another page and the descriptive text on yet another):

Note: I've removed the link to the pages as I only intended to leave it up for a short time anyhow.

The thing that I haven't found yet is what you can do without stains. The picture was stained with Diff-Quik stain. That's not something that you come by easily. Frankly, they probably stained it looking for other stuff like bacteria--think of a stain like a photo paper developer. That said, you might be able to see the crystalline structure without a stain. A staining procedure using Diff-Quik assumes that the heat or alcohol-fixed the slide before beginning and that they dried the finished product before they went looking at it. That means that it probably didn't have a coverslip and they may have even used oil with the oil immersion lens. You ever do that with the scope you were referring to?

Pidgey


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pidgey said:


> Sometime this evening, I'll put a link here to a Webshots page of the procedure for the fine needle aspiration technique that you'd use and pictures of what you're looking for in the case of gout. Personally, it's a job for a vet but you might be able to find something.
> 
> You might also try putting Preparation H on the feet and making sure that the bird's in and very warm. That might help.
> 
> Pidgey


You are right. It is a job for a vet. Don't be sticking needles in the bird's feet.

Pixy, Try Preparation H. Start the bird on baytril. The very best would be to seek veterinarian advise. There used to be a veterinarian in Weare that saw birds and perhaps he is still there. It's not that far from Concord, maybe 20 minutes. I think it would be worth the trip. I'll see if I can find the name and number.


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Exotic & Bird Clinic of NH

Bird and Exotics Veterinary Clinic
91 N Stark Hwy
Weare, NH 03281

(603) 529-2473


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> .......
> 
> As I've pointed out, though, it's very unusual for those particular symptoms to appear in that particular part on both sides at the same time. That's what I'm puzzling over.
> 
> Pidgey


Paratyphoid, in my experience, does frequent both sides in addition to being
only on one side. This includes wings and legs and yes.....feet. The droppings
from a bird w/Paratyphoid are very rancid smelling. I don't recall this bird in 
question being a sitting hen.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pixie, take one step at a time. Get the bird on Baytril if you aren't going to bring the bird to a vet. Out of all the Paratyphoid cases that I've treated in 
ferals here, there were none that failed to resolve w/Baytril. That's not to say
that this is always the case, as mentioned, some boils don't resolve on their own. But like poxvirus, you wait until the illness has run it's course and in the
case of Paratyphoid the medicinal course as well before you start worrying
about needing to get the other meds. 

If you don't have time to post a picture or look for the camera, I have no
idea how you could perform a medical aspiration procedure intended to be performed by a licensed veterinarian. I don't think you want to hurt the bird and you may end up doing just that. 

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

feralpigeon said:


> The droppings from a bird w/Paratyphoid are very rancid smelling.


Not always.


feralpigeon said:


> I don't recall this bird in question being a sitting hen.


That's correct. However, Pixy gave some description of its behavior:


Pixy said:


> One of my new Pletinckx arrivals has swollen feet at the base and i can tell theyre bothering him/her because *he/she tries to sit down as much as possible.*


...which may mean that the bird might tend to "hold it" _like_ a sitting hen because it wants to stay down as much as possible due to the probable pain of rising. As I've seen that in Winter during her partial paralysis with her oviduct problem and with other birds with broken legs, I mentioned it so that Pixy might take a closer look with that in mind and possibly return with more information--it's a fishing expedition.

Pidgey


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> i can tell theyre bothering him/her because he/she tries to sit down as much as possible


.

Dr Wym Peters (Fit to Win) describes a condition where pigeons have difficulty walking and will waddle a few spaces then lie down again if disturbed. The legs are warm and the bird seems unwilling rather than unable to walk. Even after autopsy they have been unable to establish the cause, both paratyphoid and Streptococcus (as mentioned in this thread), have been suspected. He says the condition improves after a few days antibiotic treatment, but the choice of antibiotic doesn't seem to matter. There have also been spontaneous recoveries. He doesn't mention any swelling.

BTW are the toes still pink and normal?

From "Homeopathic Treatment for Birds" by Beral M Chapman, Homeopathic remedies that could be of use are:

*Pulsatilla*, where the feets are red, inflamed and swollen.
*Manganum Aceticum*, where there is swelling of the joints and sore feet.
*Ledum *Where the soles of the feet are so painful the bird can hardly step on them.
*Lathyrus* where the bird can't lift fet clear of the ground but cannot lower heels to the ground.

Cynthia


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Pidgey said:


> Not always.
> 
> By the time they are displaying symptoms, I have found that the poops
> are always rancid/pungent.
> ...



Whatever you read in, Pidgey, I didn't get that at all from her description,
the bird is a fairly young bird.
Also, the fact that she is discussing an incoming group of birds from a 
breeder w/more than one being sick sends up a red flag.

Whatever "fishing" expedition you think is in order, I don't think it should
include encouraging a fifteen year old young person to perform procedures
that only a licensed vet should be performing.

Pixie and her family did the right thing to complain to the breeder, he obviously had reason to believe they weren't making anything up as he's 
sending Baytril 10% to them....not the correct medication for some of the 
alternate diagnoses that have been put out on the table.

fp


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

WHOA, guys. ive been busy and w-h-o-a.
Ok, i started that bird on baytril a like 3-5 days ago. And the bird was dead today. I noticed before hand that one of its eyes was bothering him/her and the eyelids were a little red. However, unfortunatley, the bird was dead today after treatment of two drops a day. It seemed like it was doing fine until yesterday when i noticed it hadnt eaten when food was given to it hours before. He was a little skinny before that, but it seemed normal because he/she was going through a hard time. Keep in mind that this was the bird with the swollen feet. I also noticed yesterday that the birds foot sweling went down. BUT the day before yesterday, i collected a poop sample. It was not runny and dark, nor rancid smelling(that i noticed).It was mostly white/cream colored and still runny. 
OK
this other bird has been showing symptoms of stress. Just like the other one but without the swelling in the feet. Ive brought it inside. I noticed that its been blinking a lot-which means its dehydrated. Also, when it blinks, it kind of twitches its head sideways and keeps blinking a twitching until its too far then brings is head back and does it again. 
I purchased brewers yeast with garlic both in powder and tablet forms so that i can make sure the flock will do well this winter and i can individually treat the birds who arnt eating like they should. 
OK
So-referring to me being 15. Youd be suprised. I dont want to toot my own horn, but im pretty good with animals and preforming procedures. Also, i am the ONLY one that takes care of my birds and i run and clean my own loft(whenever i have money it goes to my birds. The only reason why i have a job/getting, is to take care of my birds) in addition to many other animal responsibilities. even when i was in 7th grade(i forgot how i did it) i fixed an impacted crop on couple day old chicken.-did my own research on it and fixed it. With my wedding release- i set up the who shabang. I deal with my own clients and many are suprised when they meet me that im 15.SO enough of myself. -i think its a sin to be that way 
Now, its hard to take a bird to the vet with my family's outlook on pigeons. Sure theyll help me with paying for meds. My mom doesnt have anything against them- but its hard. Therefore, i have to learn and adapt to these restrictions and figure it out on my own WITH your guys's help! You have no idea how much you guys have helped me and im so greatful. 
NOW, i just need to know what to with this new bird. Im going to force it water and give it baytril? I think the neck thing sounds like PMV??? you tell me!
PHEW


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Pixy,
I'm very sorry about the dead bird. It's never easy to loose one. 

If at the very least, you could have a veterinarian run a fecal on the bird that is currently sick, that could help you with what you are dealing with and it could be that you will need to administer a flock treatment. It would be a shame for something unknown to devastate all your birds. Sure we can run through the likely culprets and treat but what if we have the wrong treatment? With one dead bird, another sick, it's likely that others are feeling poorly and just not showing symptoms yet. Birds are pretty darn sick before they will show it.
With the bird that is currently sick, you need to do more that water and medicate him/her, you also need to make sure the bird has food in it's crop. If it isn't eating on it's own, you will need to hand feed it.


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

ok. the bird has white/light yellow cheesy stuff in its mouth like beside/under the tounge/ not alot but i scraped some of it. What should i look for if i look at under a microscope? What does this mean?


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The most probable answer there is canker, caused by Trichomonads. Those are flagellating protozoa that are kinda' tricky to find with a microscope. You don't see them so much as see their motion because they're fairly quick. If you want to even try that one, go to this page, read about it down the way a little bit and then watch the videos that Vonda made of how they appear dancing in the microscope:

http://www.finchaviary.com/Maintenance/FecalSmear.htm

However, you need to put the bird on an anti-canker pretty quickly. There are other possibilities but it's more likely canker.

Pidgey


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

do i look for it in the cheesy stuff or the poop? Ok, so i know what flagella are. and i know what protozoan/protists are. ive been working on them this year. im assuming they are a fungus? I will take a look at the website. i just need to know wether to look in the poop or the cheese


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

You will find them for sure in the "cheese". 


Reti


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

if i buy this, is there a way i can individually treat?
http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail....ubCategoryID=746&ProductID=3040&DetailID=5065


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

can i use dimetridazole. i have some of that. feralpigeon generously sent me it a while back. if so, i can treat TONIGHT. it came in 5 gram packs. how do i treat with it?


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## Pixy (Mar 29, 2005)

ok ok. i figured out how to do it. ill mix up 8 liters with 5 grams because normal dosage is 25 grams wth 40 liters.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Just be real careful with Dimetridazole--if any of your birds are drinking excessive water (polydypsia), they can get poisoned by Emtryl (Dimetridazole). It's the Nitroimidazole with the least tolerance.

The way to test for Trichomonads is to do a crop swab (Q-Tip down the mouth and/or throat; wetted first) and then try to squeegee off a drop onto a slide. Cover that with a coverslip and then examine at the best contrast at 100x total magnification, looking for the signature movement. It's a little tougher than you might think trying to discern the difference between that movement and Brownian motion (where everything seems to dance a little bit). If you see an item of interest, you can center it with the mechanical stage (if your scope's got that) and then proceed to the 400x total magnification. You'll have to add more illumination but still maintain the best possible contrast. The flagellae are moving pretty fast and are difficult to even see at that mag or even at a full 1000x. You can catch them better by going with oil if it's an oil immersion objective but they're still pretty hard to see.

Pidgey


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