# Got Fined $200 for Feeding Birds by HOA



## arizonaannie64

Hi All, 

I normally lurk and read posts but I had to register because I was really curious if anyone ever heard of an HOA that restricts bird feeding? 

I actually could not believe that someone would actually stop and think to put that in the rules. I am renting so we did not have the rules of the HOA and did not know they could fine us. 

I would love to fight them on it just to cause a big enough stink to educate people that pigeons are not nearly as dirty as people think they are. 

The worst part of it is a week before this happened, someone shot one of my flock that comes by and he survived, but may never fly again. I may have a little friend living with me once he is released from rehab. I am really upset that people do that. This bird is a fledgling, he never really got a chance to get out and be a pigeon. That may make it easier to be in captivity, but still, it's very upsetting.

I wash my patio every day sometimes 2x a day, I keep everything clean. They poop on the roofs but in Arizona, one good rain and it is gone because it dries to a powdery type substance. They stay in my yard and they don't bother anyone else. 

Apparently they can't enforce wildlife but they can enforce the feeding of birds? That just is strange to me. 

I keep the running water going, they said nothing about watering the birds. I can't help it my hose leaks 

Im just sad about it because they really like it here and they feel safe here. They will even lay down and nap when i am outside - it is so cute. 

Any advice on educating these people will help - especially the people who think it is okay to shoot pigeons. I'm just afraid they are going to start poisoning them now that I am working and not home to keep watch over them.


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## Print Tippler

Have them site the statue for you, and have them give a rule book or where to find it. Pretty ridiculous, if you were feeding finches or cardinals this issue probably never would have aroused.


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## mncanary

What is 'HOA' ?


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## horseart4u

right they can't fine you if you don't have a copy of the rules, and it has to state in it that you CAN'T FEED BIRDS & WHAT KIND...it is up to them to MAKE SURE you have a copy of ALL RULES and you have to SIGN it at the begining of your lease anyway..they are in the wrong..make them show you in what rules you do have where it states that...then if they can't i would sue them for double or triple what they made you pay..


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## pidgey boy

thats just stupid and sad that some people are just that dumb to restrict bird feeding, iv never heard of HOA but i feed the local pigeons in my backyard all the time its thats bad if someone shoots a bird


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## ptras

mncanary said:


> What is 'HOA' ?


Home Owners Association


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## ptras

horseart4u said:


> right they can't fine you if you don't have a copy of the rules, and it has to state in it that you CAN'T FEED BIRDS & WHAT KIND...it is up to them to MAKE SURE you have a copy of ALL RULES and you have to SIGN it at the begining of your lease anyway..they are in the wrong..make them show you in what rules you do have where it states that...then if they can't i would sue them for double or triple what they made you pay..


The original poster stated that they do not have a copy of the HOA rules because they are a renter. Being ignorant of the law (or rules) does not exempt you from having to follow them. However, I would certainly ask to see a copy of the rules, and ask the homeowner (landlord) to pay the fine. They are the ones that are bound by the HOA agreement. Unless they put something in the lease stating that the tenant is responsible for following the HOA rules, they will be the accountable party.


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## Jaye

Here's the thing though, Ptras....

"being ignorant of the law does not exempt...etc...."

I do believe that an HOA is neither empowered to act as an officer of the peace, vested animal control bureau, state or county ranger or sheriff, or any sort of district health or building official. Your little residential enclave is neither a state, county, or municipality unto itself. It's a subdivision. I do believe an HOA is a private entity NOT vested with any legal enforcement powers...quite honestly.

So, whether it IS or IS NOT legal (the REAL law, not some bylaws of a private association) to feed....I think there's a hecka argument to be made for the fact that any such association does NOT have the power to CITE anybody (even if they claim to have such power). A citation can only be issued by properly vested officers, officials, agencies, etc. I suppose they can file a small claims against someone...but not actually issue a citation or act in any way as a law enforcement entity.

Sure they can call in a REAL officer, but that officer cannot cite you based upon hearsay..they can, at most..warn you.

Annie64.....if I were in your shoes, I would just ignore it; just make note that it might be best not to do it w/i eyeshot anymore. In the meantime do a tad of research as to their legal empowerment (and lack thereof).

If they have the nerve to actually confront you about it again...well...that'd be a nice little skirmish of the kind I often relish....

But, taking into account that a lotta people aren't as into that sorta thing as I am, a very do-able alternative would be: 

If you really wanted to cover your bases, get in touch with a lawyer or perhaps some animal advocate agency (In Defense of Animals, for example...a better choice than a Humane society or SPCA, since with the latter two it's hit or miss whether the local chapter is gonna be labile or a good advocate...although in tha absence of any other organization, I guess it's worth a call)...and see what someone somewhat familiar with the real, codified LAW has to say. Pro-bono lawyer or one of those lawyer referral services which charge a nominal fee, that sorta thing.

I will bet such a "fine" has little to no legal foundation, nor are you legally bound to pay it.


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## Print Tippler

You sign a contractual agreement, Contractual are held under law. If you moved in and signed a contract saying, if i break the rules you may fine me, then they can fine you. They can foreclosure on your house if you don't pay your dues, and it does happen look it up "HOA foreclosure"


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## Jaye

Yes, but again...you have to really pay attention to THIS fact: that's a CIVIL issue.

You don't get CITED for ALLEGED CIVIL BREACHES. 

You don't get handed a notice with (what is masquerading as) a fine or citation for CIVIL breaches. *Contract law*...IF you can even use that as a basis (and legally, PakiT...your argument is kinda dubious; but let's say for argument's sake, it's not)....is the Civil realm.

BYLAWS...which is what such an association can have... are not the same thing as codified laws which empowered enforcement agencies oversee.

Civil matters are dealt with either privately or through mediation or through civil courts. Breach of contract is civil. One is not forced to pay just because one side says they are. Really...very, very dubious legal ground for a subdivision homeowner's association to actually issue a fine and expect the recipient to pay.

It's a scare tactic which can be fought on many different fronts. My guess is, quite honestly...a lawyer letter or phone call will well make them back off, because they are banking on a person not challenging 'em nor doing their homework....

Secondly, Paki...you missed the part where Ariz explains she is leasing the place, thus has not signed any such contract as you describe.

Lastly...foreclosure due to breach of contract over such an issue is really, really _incredibly unlikely_ in property law....again, a scary thought...but if you think it thru; and speak to a professional for an hour to get their advice...

...foreclosure or even the threat of, due to your tenant feeding pigeons, seems a very unlikely scenario. This seems to me a situation where, quite typically, a homeowner's association has an overinflated sense of their own power. Not unusual nowadays, albeit sorta absurd....


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## Print Tippler

I was just saying foreclosures by the HOA do happen. Obviously this is a the property owners fault, he owns it and the fine was probably in his name.


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## arizonaannie64

Hi Everyone,
Wow this is a lot of info here. Just to let everyone know, I never received the rules, did not know of the rules and would not have started feeding them in my yard had I known of such strange rule. 

As it stands I have stopped feeding them because "Little Buddy" (what I named him) got shot in the wing, right where it joins to his body and the bird rehab lady said that she doesn't think he will fly again but that "we will see". I fear whoever it is that is so bored takes time out to shoot birds may resort to alka seltzer tablets or other ways of poisoning them. 

The flock is pretty resilient, they still come by and now they leave but always come back because they like to nap under trees in my yard and on my patio. Plus I have clean, running water for them here. 

I am going to contact "In Defense of Animals" and any other animal advocacy organization out there just to see what can be done. 

I WANT to pay the fine - for this reason - it gives me a legal stand to sue them for the amount plus costs if I have a leg to stand on with this issue. If I dont pay, the court wont even listen to it because there has been no "damage" other than some crazy letters flying around to my landlord and myself. 

I much prefer using this to educate people so that maybe some of these little guys wont get shot or poisoned. I am about to look at the rules if they have them on the website. I hope they have their rules sealed tight because I have one trick up my sleeve if they do not have their rules sealed tight. 

In my anger, if I could do what I want, I would put in a few coups and then leave it open in the day and then close them at night when they roost. Then when I am up for work (4am) open them up so they can do their "bird stuff" as I call it. I have no idea if that is a good idea, if the HOA has rules against that but if they dont, I would LOVE to do that. But right now I am angry and so that is just my brain wanting to get them back. Grrrrrr

I did check with the Arizona laws before I started feeding them and it is very clear in the Arizona laws that you may not feed any wildlife EXCEPT for birds. You may feed ANY bird, wild or otherwise. So it wasn't like I just went and did something without checking into it. 

Anyway.... thanks so much to everyone for the advice and discussion. It has helped me a lot!!


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## Bella_F

Are you allowed to have pets?


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## ptras

Jaye said:


> Yes, but again...you have to really pay attention to THIS fact: that's a CIVIL issue.
> 
> You don't get CITED for ALLEGED CIVIL BREACHES.
> 
> You don't get handed a notice with (what is masquerading as) a fine or citation for CIVIL breaches. *Contract law*...IF you can even use that as a basis (and legally, PakiT...your argument is kinda dubious; but let's say for argument's sake, it's not)....is the Civil realm.
> 
> BYLAWS...which is what such an association can have... are not the same thing as codified laws which empowered enforcement agencies oversee.
> 
> Civil matters are dealt with either privately or through mediation or through civil courts. Breach of contract is civil. One is not forced to pay just because one side says they are. Really...very, very dubious legal ground for a subdivision homeowner's association to actually issue a fine and expect the recipient to pay.
> 
> It's a scare tactic which can be fought on many different fronts. My guess is, quite honestly...a lawyer letter or phone call will well make them back off, because they are banking on a person not challenging 'em nor doing their homework....
> 
> Secondly, Paki...you missed the part where Ariz explains she is leasing the place, thus has not signed any such contract as you describe.
> 
> Lastly...foreclosure due to breach of contract over such an issue is really, really _incredibly unlikely_ in property law....again, a scary thought...but if you think it thru; and speak to a professional for an hour to get their advice...
> 
> ...foreclosure or even the threat of, due to your tenant feeding pigeons, seems a very unlikely scenario. This seems to me a situation where, quite typically, a homeowner's association has an overinflated sense of their own power. Not unusual nowadays, albeit sorta absurd....


Have you ever dealt with a HOA? The owner of the home agreed to the HOA rules, and if the rules state they can fine you, they can fine you. Renters bad for not finding out what the rules are. You seem so sure of yourself. Do you think a HOA can restrict pets? How about the number of cars you park in your driveway? How about the length of a boat you have on your property? All of these are typical rules set by various HOA's, and the owners agreed to it when they bought their property. Good luck telling them that they don't have the authority to set such restrictions, when the homeowners agreed to it upon purchase.

Most of the "professionals" I am familiar with (I'm assuming you mean attorneys) will charge more than the $200 fine to "consult for an hour."


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## ptras

Jaye said:


> Here's the thing though, Ptras....
> 
> "being ignorant of the law does not exempt...etc...."
> 
> I do believe that an HOA is neither empowered to act as an officer of the peace, vested animal control bureau, state or county ranger or sheriff, or any sort of district health or building official. Your little residential enclave is neither a state, county, or municipality unto itself. It's a subdivision. I do believe an HOA is a private entity NOT vested with any legal enforcement powers...quite honestly.
> 
> So, whether it IS or IS NOT legal (the REAL law, not some bylaws of a private association) to feed....I think there's a hecka argument to be made for the fact that any such association does NOT have the power to CITE anybody (even if they claim to have such power). A citation can only be issued by properly vested officers, officials, agencies, etc. I suppose they can file a small claims against someone...but not actually issue a citation or act in any way as a law enforcement entity.
> 
> Sure they can call in a REAL officer, but that officer cannot cite you based upon hearsay..they can, at most..warn you.
> 
> Annie64.....if I were in your shoes, I would just ignore it; just make note that it might be best not to do it w/i eyeshot anymore. In the meantime do a tad of research as to their legal empowerment (and lack thereof).
> 
> If they have the nerve to actually confront you about it again...well...that'd be a nice little skirmish of the kind I often relish....
> 
> But, taking into account that a lotta people aren't as into that sorta thing as I am, a very do-able alternative would be:
> 
> If you really wanted to cover your bases, get in touch with a lawyer or perhaps some animal advocate agency (In Defense of Animals, for example...a better choice than a Humane society or SPCA, since with the latter two it's hit or miss whether the local chapter is gonna be labile or a good advocate...although in tha absence of any other organization, I guess it's worth a call)...and see what someone somewhat familiar with the real, codified LAW has to say. Pro-bono lawyer or one of those lawyer referral services which charge a nominal fee, that sorta thing.
> 
> I will bet such a "fine" has little to no legal foundation, nor are you legally bound to pay it.


Here's the thing though Jaye...I don't believe this was ever an issue of law. It is an issue of rules. Good libertarian argument, but hardly relevant in this situation.


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## arizonaannie64

Hi All, 

I did some checking and the only thing I can find that may help me is that no-one - including associations - can supercede state law. In the state of Arizona, it is a felony to do the following things (I am not saying it applies to my situation - but it might, so I will contact an association here in Arizona and find out)

Title 13 - Criminal Code
CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER

13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
A. A person commits cruelty to animals if the person does any of the following:

1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment.

2. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly fails to provide medical attention necessary to prevent protracted suffering to any animal under the person's custody or control.

3. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly inflicts unnecessary physical injury to any animal.

4. Recklessly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment.

5. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly kills any animal under the custody or control of another person without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.

6. Recklessly interferes with, kills or harms a working or service animal without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.

7. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment that results in serious physical injury to the animal.

8. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment.

9. Intentionally or knowingly interferes with, kills or harms a working or service animal without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.


I am not sure what the definition of "custody" is so that is why I need to talk to a lawyer or the organization here in Arizona that may be able to help. All of these are felonies in Arizona.

Anyway, that is the scoop on this so far. I will keep everyone posted in case it may help someone in the future. 

Thanks to all who posted!


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## pidgey boy

your welcome


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## Print Tippler

arizonaannie64 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I did some checking and the only thing I can find that may help me is that no-one - including associations - can supercede state law. In the state of Arizona, it is a felony to do the following things (I am not saying it applies to my situation - but it might, so I will contact an association here in Arizona and find out)
> 
> Title 13 - Criminal Code
> CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
> 
> 13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
> A. A person commits cruelty to animals if the person does any of the following:
> 
> 1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment.
> 
> 2. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly fails to provide medical attention necessary to prevent protracted suffering to any animal under the person's custody or control.
> 
> 3. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly inflicts unnecessary physical injury to any animal.
> 
> 4. Recklessly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment.
> 
> 5. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly kills any animal under the custody or control of another person without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.
> 
> 6. Recklessly interferes with, kills or harms a working or service animal without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.
> 
> 7. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment that results in serious physical injury to the animal.
> 
> 8. Intentionally or knowingly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment.
> 
> 9. Intentionally or knowingly interferes with, kills or harms a working or service animal without either legal privilege or consent of the owner.
> 
> 
> I am not sure what the definition of "custody" is so that is why I need to talk to a lawyer or the organization here in Arizona that may be able to help. All of these are felonies in Arizona.
> 
> Anyway, that is the scoop on this so far. I will keep everyone posted in case it may help someone in the future.
> 
> Thanks to all who posted!


What does this have to do with the HOA. Where in the HOA rules do they say what your accused of offending? How did you receive this fine? Was there a name attached to the fine? Was it your name? If your renting and not paying HOA dues then the owner it would be the owner fine. If you tell the owner you choose to pay the fine, then thats your choice. If the fine is not in your name, or directly meant for you but you pay it then your case for damages or suing for anything would be very weak. It seems like this is a case between HOA and propriety owner, and if payment needs to met its a case between propriety owner and you the renter. Seems like you and the HOA are not directly connected here.


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## DAK1

Please don't forget it's illegal to discarge weapons or hunt too close to where people are living


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## arizonaannie64

In reference to the fines, my lease says I am responsible for any fines that I have caused. 

The issue is more of how much of a legal stink can I make, not if I have to pay the fine, I WANT to pay the fine... then I can counter sue and cause a huge stink and educate people about pigeons.. .then maybe, just maybe a few will be spared by people that are ignorant of them. 

The issue about the state law is that, they cannot make a rule that intereferes with a state law. I just posted that so everyone could see that in some situations, they just might be infringing on the rights of the people. 

Anyway, I appreciate all the help!!


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## SerendipityCA

OK, I skimmed this thread, and this is my "take" on it.

The owner of the unit is bound by the HOA rules. If the owner's tenant breaks the HOA rules, the owner can be fined or ordered to mitigate the problem. The owner and the renter have a lease - the lease is binding on the renter, not the HOA rules (unless the lease and/or HOA rules say that any tenants are bound by the HOA rules). Without reading the fine print, I don't know whether the HOA has the right to fine a tenant because she never signed the HOA rules. But the HOA has the right to fine the the tenant's landlord - and the landlord has put it in writing that the tenant must pay those fines. So, pay it already!

But that's all legalese.

What's going on here is that you have done exactly what I have done - you have attracted pigeons to your residence. You don't specifically say whether they are hanging out in other people's yards or patios, or pooping on their cars or backyards, but I'm guessing they probably are. 

The really important thing though, is that you can argue the law, and whether you're legally allowed to feed these birds, and whether you're legally required to pay the fine, but there's one REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. One of your neighbors doesn't give a crap about the law. Because it's against the law to shoot pigeons, and this person is shooting pigeons. Why would you WANT to keep bringing the pigeons around your home? You are exposing them to mortal danger. Obviously, somebody doesn't like the pigeons and is willing to break the law to get rid of them. The next one this person shoots, might be injured and go off and die a horrible death somewhere. You were lucky that you found the injured fledgling and could rescue it.

You'll never win a battle with an unseen enemy who has a gun. Pay the fine, stop feeding the pigeons, and they will go elsewhere and hopefully find food there.

If you can find a place to feed them that is not on grounds covered by the HOA and doesn't expose them to risk, then maybe you could do that. A local park? You'd have to train them to go there...


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## arizonaannie64

I didn't realize that I hadn't made it clear that I stopped feeding the birds. I am totally aware there is a moron around that likes to shoot them. This is a huge area, the size of a city and thus, there is no place to move the flock to feed them locally. Plus I have MS and I can't be out in the heat trying to train a flock to move. Maybe this fall I can try if they are still hanging around. They know me, if I come out of my brother's house across the street, they get stirred up and fly and some even follow me, so I think with that sort of recognition, I may be able to move them once the weather cools off. 

Again, as I stated before, all I want is to make a stink large enough to educate some people...nothing more, nothing less. The $200 is a mere pittance if it gets some positive attention these darlings deserve. 

The funny thing is that before I started feeding them, they were hanging out on the neighbors roofs (in the eaves) and in their yards. They never came in my yard except little "Pidgie Girl" who came to my yard when she got hurt. That is when I started feeding because she couldn't get food on her own. After about a month, the birds hanging out in my neighbors yards were congregating in my yard. I think they were in the other yards because of the plants and seeds that were available from the plants. 

I guess some of the neighbors feel slighted that they like my yard more, who knows. LOL 

I don't think that all of my neighbors are very rational. 

Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't feed them anymore, I wouldn't endanger them little cuties. They still come to my yard, but it is to nap mostly. A lot of them have left, but there are still a few that come by and nap in the shade or on my patio.


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## g-pigeon

when you are living in an area with a hoa association it usually means trouble. one person that has nothing to do but cause problems for other people will do so.i live in a town where pigeons are not allowed to be kept in a coop. if one of my neighbors complain it can cause me problems. that is why i cannot have to large of a flock.i do not want to draw to much attention to the birds.good luck


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## sky tx

Right g-pigeon
Some people would complain about anything.
They would complain about being HUNG with a "NEW" rope.


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## ptras

g-pigeon said:


> *when you are living in an area with a hoa association it usually means trouble. *one person that has nothing to do but cause problems for other people will do so.i live in a town where pigeons are not allowed to be kept in a coop. if one of my neighbors complain it can cause me problems. that is why i cannot have to large of a flock.i do not want to draw to much attention to the birds.good luck


This is a useless statement. People choose to live in areas with Homeowners' Associations for a reason. They can also choose not to live in an area with a HOA if they don't agree with the rules. Back in the early nineties, I was renting a beautiful condominium. I was offered the condo for purchase at about half of the market price, because the owner had declared bankruptcy. When I read the restrictions that were put on the property by the condo association (HOA for condominiums), I declined to buy the property. My favorite restriction (and the one that seems to have stuck with me for twenty years), was that any Christmas lights displayed outside had to be white. The first Christmas after I became aware of that rule, I went out and got all colored lights and put them all around the doors and windows. Not one person complained. I was prepared if they had complained. I was going to just move the lights right inside the doors and windows so they could still be seen from outside.

As ridiculous as I thought it was to restrict Christmas light colors, there were rules that I was in total agreement with. There was a "town green" space in the center of the seven buildings that made up the complex. Residents were restricted from walking dogs on that green. Having cleaned dog poop off of many a pair of shoes over the years, I was totally in favor of it. In addition, I have a healthy (or unhealthy - you'll have to ask my therapist) fear of large dogs. I can't tell you how many times I have been "assaulted" by a large dog whose owner said (as the dog, sans leash, was jumping up on me) "Don't worry. He's a big baby. He just wants to be friendly with you." The latest was four days ago at a public beach with very prominent signs stating that all dogs must be leashed. Some bright lightbulb of a woman decided to let her pit-bull run free to chase seagulls. He did...then when he couldn't catch them, he decided to investigate me. In my opinion...restrictions on dogs - good...restrictions on colored lights - bad.


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## Print Tippler

I think restricting dogs are ignorant. Little dogs are in general much less well behaved dogs. They jump up a lot more and and they can also bite you shoes or ankles. Its easier to train a great dane to not jump on people or bite than a yorkshire terrier or a chiwawa. The dogs are easier to discipline where your able to react to the dogs faster. That and in generally, more people with larger dogs understand that they need to go on walks. People with smaller dogs think they do need that. I have put out some stereotypes myself here, i understand that. I transport dogs,cats,bird and other small animals across country, Only done dogs cats and bird so far. But do have people looking to move turtles and other pets. But my point i get a lot of different breeds and what i consider the worst breed is Labrador. Nervous dogs and bad energy. If someone gave me a choose between moving a pitbull and a lab i would take the pitbull every single time.


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## ptras

Print Tippler said:


> *I think restricting dogs are ignorant.* Little dogs are in general much less well behaved dogs. They jump up a lot more and and they can also bite you shoes or ankles. Its easier to train a great dane to not jump on people or bite than a yorkshire terrier or a chiwawa. The dogs are easier to discipline where your able to react to the dogs faster. That and in generally, more people with larger dogs understand that they need to go on walks. People with smaller dogs think they do need that. I have put out some stereotypes myself here, i understand that. I transport dogs,cats,bird and other small animals across country, Only done dogs cats and bird so far. But do have people looking to move turtles and other pets. But my point i get a lot of different breeds and what i consider the worst breed is Labrador. Nervous dogs and bad energy. If someone gave me a choose between moving a pitbull and a lab i would take the pitbull every single time.


Thanks for your opinion. I think allowing *ANY *dog to run free is ignorant, and I *CHOOSE *to live in an area with a leash law. I have studied the law closely, and I know exactly what measures I may take when a dog enters my property. When I was four years old, I was jumped by one of those "friendly" dogs. When my dad talked to the dog owner about it, the owner replied "Your son is just being a cry-baby. Wolf was just trying to play with him." All I have to say about that, is that was some play! I remember lying on my back screaming, while "playful" Wolf was grasping my face in his mouth, shaking my head back and forth. Just in case you want to blame my parents for letting a four-year-old go into a dog's territory, this took place on the street in front of my house. The dog lived 1/4 mile away on the next street. His owner had trained him well not to poop on their street. I had the last laugh - turns out I was the third child that had been jumped by Wolf. The town banned him, and he ended up being sent to Vietnam as a mine-sweeper.


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## Print Tippler

I never said or hinted at anything concerning leash laws.


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## ptras

Print Tippler said:


> I never said or hinted at anything concerning leash laws.


You never said anything about much of anything.


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## SerendipityCA

This is a pigeon forum, not a dog forum. But since ptras brought it up, let me point out that everything ptras said about dogs, you could spin around and put in the mouth of a pigeon hater, and that person would think he had just as good a reason to dislike pigeons as ptras does to dislike dogs. And there are LAWS against pigeons. Which I'm guessing almost everybody on this forum breaks without a second thought.

I don't like racism, and I don't like species-ism, and I don't like breed-ism (pitbulls are FABULOUS dogs by the way, and no more likely to chase seagulls than any other breed - and let's not go there with labs either, they are a wonderful breed as well). And as for Wolf, if he got sent to Vietnam as a mine-sweeper dog, that's a high honor. Of course, they weren't allowed to bring military dogs home from Vietnam, so he was either abandoned or killed. Nice way to honor K9 contributions to our nation's safety, eh?


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## spirit wings

she stopped feeding them so Iam sure they are happy now..so that part is over.

as far as her fine.. she as every right to see if it is crossing some line, let her spend the money it takes to find that out. but from what I have heard.. HOA's are iron clad.

as far as shooting the pigeon.. well seems the HOA would have a stronger opinion about that if it happend in the HOA area.. if not then he was shot some place else..and not sure about AZ but here in va they are open game all season.. they are considerd an invasive species.


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## ptras

SerendipityCA said:


> This is a pigeon forum, not a dog forum. But since ptras brought it up, let me point out that everything ptras said about dogs, you could spin around and put in the mouth of a pigeon hater, and that person would think he had just as good a reason to dislike pigeons as ptras does to dislike dogs. And there are LAWS against pigeons. Which I'm guessing almost everybody on this forum breaks without a second thought.
> 
> I don't like racism, and I don't like species-ism, and I don't like breed-ism (pitbulls are FABULOUS dogs by the way, and no more likely to chase seagulls than any other breed - and let's not go there with labs either, they are a wonderful breed as well). And as for Wolf, if he got sent to Vietnam as a mine-sweeper dog, that's a high honor. Of course, they weren't allowed to bring military dogs home from Vietnam, so he was either abandoned or killed. *Nice way to honor K9 contributions to our nation's safety, eh?*


Never heard of any pigeons jumping children in the street.

Just so you know, I don't hate dogs. I just do everything in my power to avoid them.

Regarding Wolf's "contribution to our nation's safety," it made me feel good when I heard what happened.


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## SerendipityCA

spirit wings said:


> ...and not sure about AZ but here in va they are open game all season.. they are considerd an invasive species.


IMHO, the most destructive "invasive species" is **** sapiens.


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## spirit wings

SerendipityCA said:


> IMHO, the most destructive "invasive species" is **** sapiens.


 you as a **** sapian I guess are not part of what you see as destructive.. I do not think Iam either. at least not on purpose.


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## SerendipityCA

Oh, I see myself as destructive. I am not vegan, I drive a car, I live in America. I'm probably one of the bad guys in terms of the planet's survival.


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## spirit wings

SerendipityCA said:


> Oh, I see myself as destructive. I am not vegan, I drive a car, I live in America. I'm probably one of the bad guys in terms of the planet's survival.


"live in America?"... where else would you want to live?


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## Charis

spirit wings said:


> "*live in America*?"... where else would you want to live?




Not sure but I think she meant we have a bigger carbon foot print because of our consumerism.


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## spirit wings

Charis said:


> Not sure but I think she meant we have a bigger carbon foot print because of our consumerism.


the question was put to SerendipityCA, but if you are right about HER answer I thought that was more of the **** sapians in china's fault.. industry is huge and polluted there...maybe she won't feel as bad then if that is the case which I do beleive it is, if one believe in that.


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## Charis

spirit wings said:


> the question was put to SerendipityCA, but if you are right about HER answer I thought that was more of the **** sapians in china's fault.. industry is huge and polluted there...maybe she won't feel as bad then if that is the case which I do beleive it is, if one believe in that.




Michelle...my comment was based upon my interpretation of Serendipity's comment and I thought I'd offer that opinion as you seemed a bit confused.
If you believe pollution is the fault of China, I would suggest you do a bit more research and educated yourself. Here's a link to get you started...

http://www.go-green.com/node/21


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## spirit wings

Charis said:


> Michelle...my comment was based upon my interpretation of Serendipity's comment and I thought I'd offer that opinion as you seemed a bit confused.
> If you believe pollution is the fault of China, I would suggest you do a bit more research and educated yourself. Here's a link to get you started...
> 
> http://www.go-green.com/node/21


China is in the number one spot for carbon emmission.. just thought that would make her feel better for living in America.. seems she would want to move someplace "greener" if she feels so guilty. I still was asking her, I really do not like to guess what others are thinking or answer for them.. so this point is moot IMO.


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## ptras

SerendipityCA said:


> Oh, I see myself as destructive. I am not vegan, I drive a car, I live in America. I'm probably one of the bad guys in terms of the planet's survival.


Oh how egotistical are we humans. What is this about the planet's survival? The earth was here for billions of years before humans, and will be here for billions of years when we are gone.

It will either make more hydrocarbon based fuels or it won't. The greenhouse effect may heat up the planet until the polar icecaps melt and water floods the entire planet. Maybe it will keep heating up until the oceans are boiling. Or maybe the greenhouse effect will reverse, and the polar ice will creep down across the continents. Or maybe the magnetic field will go away allowing the earth to be bombarded with interstellar radiation.Or maybe the loss of the ozone layer will wipe out all life. Or the loss of the ozone layer will cause mutations and create super-beings that will decide to wipe out all life forms that are unlike them. 

One of my favorite scenarios is the one where a comet hits Jupiter - triggering nuclear _[pronounced nu-klee-er, not nyoo-kyuh-ler as two former presidents had a penchant for saying] _ fusion that causes it to become a star. Then, with two "suns" in the sky, photosynthetic plants will all grow out of control and consume all other life forms. (This one is great, because the increase in greenhouse gases - carbon dioxide - will contribute to the overgrowth of the plants!)

EDITED


How absolutely conceited of us to think that what we do matters to the earth. Us trying to "heal the earth" could be likened to an individual flu virus feeling concerned about its host body, and trying to heal the human. 

Laughable.


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## John_D

Why do threads have to go so far off topic?

All that happens is that we get members reporting posts that, frankly, shouldn't be there, and threads get closed.


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