# In need of enlightenment!!!



## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

Ladies and Gents,

I have been flying for 5 years on the long end of our IF club.

For five years I have listened to other members tell me that I have the benefit of overfly. When I have asked them how that could possibly benefit me I have been treated to arcane and unsubstantiated fare ranging from-- Well, a pigeon flies faster closer to its loft-- TO--There is some mathematical benefit, either in time or distance, I do not know which, that is inherent in determining race speed but I do not know how it is calculated.

The mythical wraith of overfly seems to be completely absent from the YPM column of our race result sheets, in that the YPM figures appear always to be the same as a linear calculation based upon loft distance (in yards) from liberation point divided by time elapsed (in minutes) from liberation to trapping. In essence it appears that my ypm figures are calculated in exactly the same fashion as someone whose loft is 50 miles closer to the liberation point than mine so that I do not have any "overfly advantage".

The IF membership cards have a section titled OVERFLY ALLOWANCE PER MILE AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS. HOWEVER; the cards do not explain how one is to use the numbers associated with the different speeds nor do they inform the reader if those numbers are time, distance, something else or simply a variable to be used in a mathematical formula.

If anyone can fully explain how overfly is calculated and help in my quest to be free of the the dark bonds of ignorance I would be forever grateful.

For this to happen I need the mathematics of how overfly is calculated! I am math literate so do not be concerned about frightening me. Remember words constitute the language of politicians and lawyers precisely because they are unexact and subjective while math is the language of science for the opposite reason.

I have by the way attempted to get the above referenced info from the IF to no avail.

Thanks and wishing you tailwinds and blue skies on race day.

Al


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## Crazy Pete (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I can't seem to find it but some place I have an overfly chart ,it shows the speed, the miles, and the minutes you need to win. how much overfly do you have? I do know that in a fast race if the bids fly 1510.00 YPM you have 1.10 minutes per mile overfly to win. Sorry I can't help.
Dave


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

I dont seem to fully understand your post, 

Distance x times in air is broken down into yards per minute

The bird with the fastest time wins, period.

There is no penalty that I am aware of for being on long or short end or any given race course. 

Other than that of individuals who always seem to think someone else has an advantage and constantly complain about it. When they should in fact be looking at themselves, I.E. the loft conditions, training and of course this all goes to health of the birds.

The guy or gal who wins is the one with healthly birds who are in shape and ready for the given race they are flying in!


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## Jr Brown (May 22, 2012)

I was happy to see this subject up for discussion. I too fly the longest in our club and get to hear about "overfly advantage" all the time, even though I did not win single race last year.

Only one member in our club has attempted to explain this supposed advantage.

First, it only is a very slight, advantage if the race is a slow race, according to the flyer who explained it to me.

He cited an example from last year. On the 2nd 100 mile race, the driver said the birds circled for 7 minutes after he released them.
That 7 minutes was a complete waste of time, the birds gained 0 ypm in that first 7 minutes. Now in a sense they have to make up that 7 minutes, because the clock was running.
So if you average out that 7 minutes over a 100 miles, it adds .000039/ypm to their time. If another flyer, ie., me, flys 110 miles and you average out that extra seven minutes over the 110 miles, it only adds .000036/ypm
Now of course that is only a 10 mile difference but, you can use the math to calculate any differences in distances.
To my knowledge there is no separate calculations or formulas used based on your distance being any longer that other flyers.

It is just the longer you fly the more time the birds have to make up for something that may have slowed them down.


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

*Still seeking enlightenment!*

Lawman,
I am not sure what aspect of the post you find problematic the semantics or the conceptual aspect. I will try to simplify the conceptual aspects and forego the semantics for the present.
My primary query is: Does, the often spoken of, overfly exist in pigeon racing?
Your response clearly indicates that you believe it does not. Which by the way is fine with me. I will fly whether or not it does exist.
However predicated on the 2 other responses to the post and the IF membership card (which has a section entitled OVERFLY ALLOWANCE PER MILE AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS) that I hold, I believe you are wrong!
Given my assumption that your belief is erroneous my basic question then spawns the subordinate questions: What is overfly and How is it calculated?
Obviously you would not be the source of answers to these sub questions because you do not believe in the existence of overfly. Therefore we can end our discussion on the above referenced questions at this juncture based upon what could be described as a logical impass.
However I will comment on your belief that how a bird performs is based solely on loft conditions,training and health of the bird and is unrelated in any way to the distance an individual bird flies.
For anyone who has watched a marathon race, boxing competition, tennis match or any other sport requiring physical effort over a prolonged perion of time it should be intuitively obvious that athletic performance degrades over time,that performance in an athletic event is inversely related to the duration of that performance and that performance induced fatigue adversley affects athletic performance. To deny these would only indicate a lack of even a scintilla of knowledge in one or more of the many fields such as physiology,biomechanics,vertebrate biology,kinesiology etc.
Think about it when you are digging a ditch when are you most tired and when is your productivity most reduced, obviously at the end of the project! The more effort you expend the more tired and less productive you become.

Here is a scenario that might help. Two fliers (lets say F1 and F2) enter a bird in their clubs 100 mile race. The liberation point is 100 miles from F1 loft and 150 miles from F2 loft. Let's assume both birds are equal in every way health,condition training etc. 
When the birds are liberated they both reach the location of the F1 loft in 146.6 minutes with a speed of 1200 ypm. F1's bird is now done, his race is over race, speed 1200 ypm. BUT F2's bird must fly an additional 50 miles after F1 has got home. That is half again as far as F1 was required to fly! It is reasonable to expect that the performance of the F2 bird will be comprimised to the point that he might not be able to continue at 1200 because he has to fly the extra 50 miles. Nor, I should say, is it fair to judge the F1 bird with F2 even if F2 had been able to maintain the 1200 ypm speed for the extra 50 miles SIMPLY BECAUSE THE TEST EACH BIRD WAS SUBJECTED TO WAS IN NO WAY EQUAL IN THAT F2 HAD TO FLY HALF AGAIN AS FAR AS F1!!

I believe overfly exists as an attempt to make pigeon races fair because birds fly different distances.

Statisticians and researchers utilize mathematical means to analyze observations,experimental results etc. This is done via the application of a math "formula" consisting among other things of one or more variables. Some of these variables are more important than others. To reflect this in the analysis they assign a "weight" to such variables. That weight is a number which when used in the formula causes the analysis to more accurately reflect reality. 
Now here is my SWAG regarding the IF overfly allowance per mile at different speeds portion of my membership card: CAVEAT EMPTOR--THIS IS JUST MY GUESS AS TO HOW THIS MIGHT POSSIBLY WORK-- I HAVE NOT YET CONFIRMED THIS TO BE TRUE WITH ANY IF OFFICIAL--SO DO NOT JUMP THE GUN AND START USING THIS 

The numbers on the card ranging from 1.01 to 2.00 are weights to be used in the computation of overfly adjusted speeds.
One way this could possibly be done is:
1. determine your speed in ypm in the normal fashion
2. take the speed in #1 and find the weight to be used to compute overfly allowance
3. multiply the weight in #2 by the miles of overfly 
4. add the # derived in 3 above to the ypm found in 1 above. This is your overfly adjusted speed.

e.g. 1. Your ypm derived using your clock time is 1200 ypm
2. You have 50 miles overfly.
3. Find the weight associated with 1200 ypm and multiply it by your miles of overfly. 50 miles overfly X 1.28 = 64
4. Add the # from 3 above and add it to the # from 1 above 64+1200 = 1264 ypm. Your overfly adjusted speed is 1264 ypm.

I am on a mission to have my overfly questions answered. I will post any OFFICIAL answers I receive.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Al X West said:


> Lawman,
> I am not sure what aspect of the post you find problematic the semantics or the conceptual aspect. I will try to simplify the conceptual aspects and forego the semantics for the present.
> My primary query is: Does, the often spoken of, overfly exist in pigeon racing?
> Your response clearly indicates that you believe it does not. Which by the way is fine with me. I will fly whether or not it does exist.
> ...


No you misunderstand;

does one flier have a longer airline than another, (you call it overfly) yes. I fly in the 395 concourse in southern california. the membership is spread out and is over one hundred miles from the shortest loft to the longest loft and approximately 50 miles wide. I am about in the middle of the pack.

I have owned pigeons the majority of my life and have owned and raced (racing homers) for over 30 years now, just as my younger brother and racing partner has. 

I will keep this simple; so if we fly the north course my brother has a 5.5 mile overfly (longer airline ) than I have. if we fly the east course I have 1.5 mile overfly on him. 

This said you seem to think that ther are those in your area that have an advantage or disadvantage by having a longer or shorter airline. 

This is hogwash to put it simply. I have beeten my brother on long and short races and he has beeten me, flying both directions. 

It is loft conditions, health and training that wins races. you can have the healthest loft and best health of anyone in your area, but if your birds are not trained as well as the guy next to you, you will lose the race period.


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

Lawman,

You obviously have been associated with pigeons longer than I have. That being said I do have an understanding of stastics and weighting. The methodology could be used to adjust results in races so that the playing field is leveled between long and short enders.

I do not SEEM to think that individuals whose pigeons fly shorter distances than mine have an advantage: I KNOW THEY DO. The caveat here is as I have previously said , all other things except distance flown must be equal. While I have not been flying as long as you I know this because I hold three degrees in the sciences. Two of these are in the life sciences and have provided me with a bit of knowledge about living organisms of all types.

The fact that you have beaten your brother or he has beaten you on occasions is not a scientifically valid reason for you to determine that a pigeon flying a longer distance is not at a disadvantage in relation to one flying a shorter distance.

As I said to call a race in which one pigeon has to fly 150 miles and another only 100 miles fair is just dumb!

As I also said I will post an official answer IF I ever receive one from the federation.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

*Overfly*

Judging from some of the responses, it makes you wonder how many clubs across the country just ignore the handicap.

It will be interesting to find out the official answer to your question.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

Is the percentage of birds that have shorter distance greater than the ones with longer distance with the best results?


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## markp1969 (Nov 23, 2010)

Crazy Pete said:


> Well I can't seem to find it but some place I have an overfly chart ,it shows the speed, the miles, and the minutes you need to win. how much overfly do you have? I do know that in a fast race if the bids fly 1510.00 YPM you have 1.10 minutes per mile overfly to win. Sorry I can't help.
> Dave


https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0Wqm67jXSZ0Ymd2UnhZdXc4Mnc

I downloaded a while back.

Overfly is nothing more than the distance difference between 2 lofts and the race station. The allowance is nothing more than a calculation tool to help the longer end guys determine when to expect their birds to tie the shorter end lofts in a race.

Example: John's loft is 100 miles from race station.
Mark's loft is 150 miles from race station.
Overfly for Mark is 50 miles from John's loft
John's bird arrived to loft at 10am with a 1200 YPM
Now looking at the chart Mark gets 1.28 minutes per mile allowance.
50 X 1.28 = 64 minutes
Mark can determine if his bird clocks in before 11:04 he beat John


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

markp1969 said:


> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0Wqm67jXSZ0Ymd2UnhZdXc4Mnc
> 
> I downloaded a while back.
> 
> ...


well said, 

Al X West, I have heard your same argument from short distance lofts, that you claim as a longer airline loft about the short. Everytime it boils down to someone convincing themselves they cannot win because of this or that, short vs long, oh I cant beat that guy cause he is in the pocket ect ect. it is all hog wah in the end.

As for your claim of everything beign equal, it never will be so this is also hog wash...

You can go out and buy the best birds available and give your culls to the next guys who is a better handler..... I.E. he has better health in his birds and better loft conditions overall and he will beat you with your own birds. He will do this even when he is off line or longer airline than you have..... I have seen it done and have done so with birds from other fliers that they did not want. 

It is health, health, health and training that wins races, nothing more


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

*Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!*

Thanks Mark,

You have provided the most lucid and from all appearances the most accurate description of the term OVERFLY I have yet to receive. It is interesting that none of the two IF officials (still waiting on replies from 2 others) nor any of the perhaps 30 or so fliers ,some of whom have had 50 years in the game, with which I have spoken or corresponded was able to do the same.

If any of the remaining IF officials contacts me with different info I will as promised post it here. Otherwise I'll consider myself enlightened.

Lawman, I expect you and will have to agree to disagree. While you were correct in that overfly provides no advantage to fliers on the long end I still know that beyond good health, avian biology ( including genetics and physiology) weigh equally as heavily in winning races. You are still missing my original point though. It was not that a short or long ender could not win. It was rather that a race in which individual cometitors are coursing different distances is unequivocally unfair! That is unless the measurement of success is adjusted to compensate for the unequal demands placed upon the individual racers. One of those means of adjustment by the way could be statistical weighting.

Good luck to all on basket night.


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Al X West said:


> Thanks Mark,
> 
> You have provided the most lucid and from all appearances the most accurate description of the term OVERFLY I have yet to receive. It is interesting that none of the two IF officials (still waiting on replies from 2 others) nor any of the perhaps 30 or so fliers ,some of whom have had 50 years in the game, with which I have spoken or corresponded was able to do the same.
> 
> ...


If what your trying to promote were true no long end flier would ever win a race let alone place well. I will use my brother and sister in law for example. When flying north as I mentioned they have a 5.5 mile overfly on me (advantage per you), now mind you I do almost all of the training for all of our birds no I know they dont get any advantage there. We have vertually identical health and loft conditions and we flew the same family of birds. Yet my sister in law flying from the same loft as my brother kicked my hind end so well she came out #7 on the AU National Data base, yet I believe that same year I was #35 maybe lower, yet I was only slightly behind her. 

I have done the same thing to my brother when we flew the eastern course and I was the longer loft. It happens all the time! Stop making excuses or claiming it is something other than what it is...

It is health, health, health and training that wins races, nothing more! well maybe one thing, you have to have excellant stock to begin with 

PS the year my sister in law did so well my brother got the idea to fly only birds mixed with those of another fancier from our area. I dont believe he has a single one of those birds left in his loft as they could home but they never excelled at any distance even as old two or three year olds


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

*Sayonara*

Lawman,

Please reread my previous post. Then tell me what part of "you and I will have to agree to disagree" is incomprehensible to you.

You will never convince me and vice versa. We both know each other is wrong!
So if your aim is to convince me you can cease and desist as it will never happen. If your aim is to hear yourself prattle on by all means put the pedal to the metal!

As my first post said my aim here was to acheive enlightenment and thanks to Mark that has occurred. I'm done here. I have birds to fly and fish to catch!


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## markp1969 (Nov 23, 2010)

I myself have been racing 5 years now and also on the long end and on top of that I loose few minutes of time because of lake erie. My birds at first were coming in 30 minutes behind the winner. I used to think the way you do. Then I found out I've been over feeding my birds, my birds were over weight. A few weeks later I won my first race a 300. And last year was my most consistent young bird season yet.

One of the old timers helped me and open my eyes getting my birds on a health system and feeding system and don't stray from it during the season. Change it up after the season if need to.


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

I too am on the long end. When I flew I would get good times when we had a tail wind but with a head wind or side wind I would be behind. We had 4 others further than I and its the same story with them. Our longest guy was 30 miles further than I and he won a 300 ( I think ), his only win. He cherished that bird ! It never bred a good bird for him buy that didn't matter, it was his only winner. 
Birds that circle a lot at release also makes a confusing race for us. 
As breeders we need not only to breed fast birds but to breed from birds that can get their bearings quickly. How do we find that ? , Not sure except to breed from birds that are right there on calm days " no wind to mess up our calculations and not much circling at the release. Circling time should be observed and reported by the trucker. These facts will help us to pair up the birds - still though " there are no guarantees with breeding ", thats what makes it fun.


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## Chuck K (Jan 12, 2013)

Here is a thread on this topic from back in 2009, but it doesn't shed much more light on the subject. 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/short-end-v-s-long-end-timegiven-39301-3.html


The information below comes from an ad at the link I have pasted below the article. The information in bold seems to me to indicate that Winspeed uses an adjustment for overfly to determine YPM.


Home iOS Apps Utilities & Operating Systems System Utilities PIGEON RACING SPEED & REALTIME CALCULATOR 

PIGEON RACING SPEED & REALTIME CALCULATOR
Visit Site External Download Site
Average User Rating:
Be the first to rate this product!

Editors' Note: The download button opens the iTunes App Store, where you may continue the download process. You must have iTunes installed with an active iTunes account in order to download and install the software. This download may not be available in some countries.
Publisher's Description
-
From BAYNON: Pigeon Racing Speed & Real Time Race Speed Calculator. This app will figure your racing pigeon Flying time, Overfly, & Speed in YPM (yards per minute), MPH (miles per hour), MPM (meters per minute) and KPH (kilometers per hour). Allows for your DISTANCE to be entered as either: MILES, KILOMETERS, or MILES & YARDS.This is a useful and fun tool that can be appreciated by every Racing Pigeon enthusiast. Buy once, have forever on your device! * REALTIME CALCULATOR is a live, ticking countdown speed display to keep running while awaiting a birds arrival home. It will tick away live, in real time showing you the birds current speed, flight time, and overfly if it were to arrive at that moment. You can watch the speed decrease and overfly increase on the display as time is passing. At the moment a bird arrives, there is a CAPTURE button to either save your screen as a photo image to your ipod, ipad, or iphone, or to send a screenshot as an email. * SPEED CALCULATOR will figure your racing pigeon speed in YPM (Yards per minute), MPH (miles per hour), and KPH (kilometers per hour). Just enter your distance, Liberation time, and arrival time. *This calculator will tell you the birds Overfly allowance as figured in Winspeed*. *SPEED CALCULATOR WITH CLOCK DEVIATION will allow you to figure race time including +/- clock variation. For more information see link on: www.pigeonring.com

http://download.cnet.com/PIGEON-RACING-SPEED-REALTIME-CALCULATOR/3000-2094_4-75418603.html

Here is another site that seems to imply that overfly may be used in calculating the velocity.

http://newcastlepigeons.com/content/75

4. VELOCITY CALCULATIONS

a) Unless specified otherwise, all race distances must be calculated on the Great Circle method using latitudes and longitudes (amended to VINCENTY algorythm May General meeting 2015) and the bird recording the fastest velocity from the point of liberation to the members loft shall be declared the winner.

b) Race velocities to be calculated to 1 decimal place.

c) The Federation shall record the latitude and longitude co-ordinates of all members loft locations by GPS. A representative of the NCF Executive will visit each members loft to record these co-ordinates and supply a copy of each members mapping to the respective clubs. To calculate any velocity, the distance of each members loft from the various racepoints must be that shown on the official mapping supplied by the NCF.

d) All hours of darkness are to be disregarded in the calculation of the velocity and will be omitted from the birds flying time. The hours of darkness shall be the period of time starting 30 minutes after official sunset until 30 minutes prior to the official sunrise. 

e) In the event of any bird being timed in during the hours of darkness in races of more than one days duration, the velocity of that bird shall be calculated on actual flying time with no deduction for hours of darkness.

f) In the event that a bird is timed in during the 30 minute period prior to official sunrise, the race will re-open 30 minutes before that birds trap time rather than 30 minutes before sunrise.

g) Birds trapped in during the hours of darkness on any one day cannot be beaten by any bird timed in during daylight hours the following day.

* h) In any race where the velocity after 24 hours from liberation falls below 800 metres per minute, overfly allowances shall be worked out for that race as if the velocity between flyers were 800 metres per minute. See example attached.*

i) Should any competitor be credited with having made such a velocity that the Executive Committee consider impossible on that day, then the Executive Committee have the absolute power to disqualify that bird from the said race even though there may be no evidence or suggestion of fraudulent practice by the competitor or any other person.

j) The results as calculated on the NCF Web Site shall be accepted as the Official Race Results. In the case of any conflict between results calculated on the web site and results calculated by any other software, the NCF Web Site results shall be the Official Race Results.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Short end guys like myself want a SLOW YPM race...Why ?? Because like most days,if there is a wind,it starts kicking up around 10am....And as the day progresses,the wind could get a little more velocity...So lets say the liberation is at 8am..And my measuremeant is around 78 miles.....There is a NE wind @ 3 to 5 mph....My birds will be racing into the 3 to 5 mph wind,and get home lets say at 10am.....1177YPM @ 40mph....Now,old Joe is racing at 160 miles....Allot of overfly,YES it is....But as time goes by,the wind is now blowing 5 to 7 mph....His birds are getting a little tired,and they are racing into a more windy race course....They are flying 38/39 mph,which as you can see,my birds made it in at 40mph....This is overfly people....Now,if it`s a tail wind,the long end guys have more mph wind pushing their birds home,and they are hard to beat....Not saying the short end guy can`t win this race,but it`s harder to do so...Being OFF the line of flight is really the big problem for lofts that are spread out all by themselves,no matter if they are on the long end or short end of their club or combine....The young man above in another post had a great answer....Don`t have your pigeons OVER WEIGHT, if you want to win a race...And healthy also !! Alamo


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

*IF responses and some final thoughts*

I mentioned I would post replies from the IF officials when I received them ---2 said there is no consideration given to long end fliers it is simply yards per minute in every instance. 1 said he did not know and that all computation is done via computer. 1 did not respond and I never connected with another 1 even though he and I missed each other several times.

I was glad to see Alamo mentioned that birds which fly 78 miles will be less tired than those that fly 160 miles.
I agree fully with all those who have said that health, condition,genetics and training are of primal importance in winning a race.

I disagree whole heartedly with the idea that those are the only things that affect our birds in the races. The distance a bird flies is at minimum as important as health etc. 


This is best explained by the scientific field of inquiry known as physics:
The concept of work in its simplest form is explained by physics as an equation i.e. Work = Force X Distance. Work is done when a force is applied to an object and the object is moved a distance. The force is measured in units known as Newtons, the distance in meters and the work done is measured in units known as Joules.

We would all have to agree that our birds do work when they move the object of their 400 gram bodies over a distance of miles!


Here is the difference, ( for illustration purposes only because work equations can get quite complex when one attempts to include multiple variables so we will forget about gravity, vectors,lift, drag and the physics of flight), in the work done by a pigeon that flies 100 miles compared to one that flies 150 miles:

Assume for our purposes a pigeon does 4 Newtons of work when it moves (flies) an object(its body weighing 400 grams) over a distance of 1 meter.

The work done by the 100 mile (161467 meters) bird is 
Work = Force X Distance
W = 4 Newtons X 161467 meters
W = 645868 Joules 

The Work done by the 150 mile bird is
W = 4 Newtons X 242201 meters
W = 968804 Joules

In this simplistic illustration the 150 mile pigeon is required to do (as you might expect) one and one half times the work done by the 100 mile bird.

Unequivocally, racers that are required to fly longer distances than their competitors, in most situations, are at a disadvantage. It is simply that they are required to do more work than their competitors.


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## wildcat hunter (Jan 17, 2014)

OH yeh - and" , the earth is round, In a 600 mile race the bird flies further than 600 because the earth is round ! 
The only "fair" race is when all the birds are in the same loft OR when all the lofts are in the same compound. Then all distances are the same and its the fancier that makes the difference.


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## beatlemike (Nov 28, 2009)

The system is most likely not perfect but its the best anyone can come up with. The only true solution would be one loft races. The Boston marathon is not a perfect system either but its the love of running that keeps people entering.


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## Al X West (Sep 10, 2012)

*beatlemike*

I agree 100% with your asessment that the system is not perfect and that 1 loft races are the perfect solution. Less so with the thought that the existing system is the best that can be developed.

Your mentioning the Boston marathon is the perfect example; while it is not 100% fair at least they have attempted to make it more fair over the years by doing a multitude of things such as adding special catagories, staggering start times, wave starts etc. If I give the flying of ob and yb seperately the latitude of haveing been predicated upon fairness, to my knowledge, it would qualify as the single attempt to introduce fairness in pigeon racing! 

I believe a system using statistical weighting could be developed to make
pigeon racing more fair. Not perfect, but more fair than the existing system.
It would demand the abilities of a bonafide PhD. statistician but I believe it could be accomplished.


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## Alamo (Nov 22, 2008)

Years ago, my thought was in OUR DAY & AGE, our pigeons are BETTER then what my dad`s were back in the 1940`s to 1960`s.....Way back when the IF & AU were started,they came up with how many seconds of overfly would be given to a longer racing loft,from a shorter racing loft....In my opinion,these seconds of overfly given are OUTDATED....We have so much better products/meds/training methods etc that our pigeons would beat those old time pigeons from yesteryear...If I`m correct,these overfly seconds need to be reduced,to make it a more level playing field....I think the powers that rule the AU & IF,should look into adjusting these overfly seconds,to make it a fairer pigeon racing sport.....*GOOD LUCK getting them to even think about it !!!*......Alamo


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## M Kurps (Mar 19, 2009)

markp1969 said:


> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0Wqm67jXSZ0Ymd2UnhZdXc4Mnc
> 
> I downloaded a while back.
> 
> ...


Nice to see my chart card from years ago get some use !
Kurps


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## rpalmer (Mar 10, 2011)

M Kurps said:


> Nice to see my chart card from years ago get some use !
> Kurps


It was the definitive answer. Beyond strange the IF is clueless about this. It seems that since it is reportedly a self correction in the software that is all that one needs to know.

Problem with that is not all IF clubs use electronic clocking. 

Thanks again!


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## lawman (Jul 19, 2005)

Al X West said:


> I mentioned I would post replies from the IF officials when I received them ---2 said there is no consideration given to long end fliers it is simply yards per minute in every instance. 1 said he did not know and that all computation is done via computer. 1 did not respond and I never connected with another 1 even though he and I missed each other several times.
> 
> I was glad to see Alamo mentioned that birds which fly 78 miles will be less tired than those that fly 160 miles.
> I agree fully with all those who have said that health, condition,genetics and training are of primal importance in winning a race.
> ...


Instead of compaining about all of the advantages or disadvantages you have when on the long or short end or a course, I suggest you do something very radical these days and look inward....

Here is a good place to start 

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/jackbarkel/articles/EnergyVitalityStamina.htm

You can go to other articles I have written as well as others in how to prep your birds for short, middle or long distance races... that is if you even know what type of birds you have. As most long distance birds these days naturally fly to slow to be competative on short races and the short distance birds dont have the stamina to compete at the long races. (I personally have tried to develope a family that is competitive in the middle distance races that are more comonly seen in the one loft races and have so far done quite well). 

That being said knowing how and when to prep is something you learn in part by reading lots of books and taking the time to implement different ideas and finding what works for you on your given course. 

Again this is a radical and unique thought process these days as everyone wants to find some other reason to blame their losses on.


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## Feather foot (Feb 19, 2014)

It all depends on the day. Slow start fast finish or fast start slow finish. The wind makes the race. That being said u have to have your birds in top condition when it's your day


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