# Willie on the way out



## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I was not going to post this but I figure it might be a education experience for people and will follow the story from the beginning. Willie is a wild pigeon that was fenced about 5 days ago and two hugh black birds were just pounding on him to get him off the fence and I heard the noise and saw the scene and stood with my broom on guard duty for 30 minutes until they left so that I could brush Willie with the broom for him to fall into the right yard-my yard. He was very light in feel--smelled of canker--and I am sure worms too and he had a broken wing badly hanging plus full of bugs that one could actually see crawling around and so very very thin--starving as well. I could not get a vet appointment until yesterday and cancelled it and made another one today at vet 2 a woman doctor who is close to where I live. At this point Willie is dying and neither her or I expect him to live through the night.
We did a extenstive evaluation of the situation and he has canker plus a major problem with his lungs for we saw the areas on the xray as well as being hit by those birds three or four times to where he has muscle and tendon damage on the left wing that shows up white----but the wing is not broken. Willie also has motility problems to where he can not digest his food we think and are watching this plus a real deep breathing harsh coming from his lungs and its expansive. We don't know if it is a fungus or a bacteria but we are treating him for all this. Right now the first set of medicines to try to stabalize him is for me to continue the Metronidaz 50mg/ml Xcc.. Give 0.13 milliliter orally 2 times a day. For beginning medicine to fight a bacteria in the lungs and general we also have him on Enrofloxacin/cc giving 0.18 milliliter orally 2 times a day for 10 days. Also we have him on a strickly liquid diet of "Emerard" (water mixed with powder 12-14 cc about three or four times a day. This is his beginning treatment and will observe to see what is happening. Later if we need to he will get a motility drug to move food through his system as well as a possible switch of medicine for a fungus infection if these first drugs don't improve him. The vet did not give Willie much hope nor I and we really can't see him making it much longer---he is very very sick....He is warm and peaceful and safe from those big black spikey winged birds (big crows maybe)?? and I just wanted to share this story concerning his medical diagnosis and we will go from here and believe me it might not be coming good news. The vet suggested putting him down and she never suggest this to me---then she said---You want to give him a chance don't you? Then she said see me on Saturday for a reevaluation of the medicine--don't have to bring the bird just your self to pick up a different set of medicines if this does not improve him and we will take this step by step.
Thats where we are right now with Willie and he is sleeping peaceful until I wake him up for his "Emerard" (powder and water food)....c.hert


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

I wish you luck with Willie. Poor thing!


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

He is in kind, knowledgeable and safe hands now, bless him...and you.

Cynthia


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## amyable (Jul 7, 2007)

I am sorry Willie turned out to be so ill, but how kind of you to still care enough to try.
Thank goodness his fate wasn't to be determined by the crows and that he is warm and safe now.

I wish for a miracle but hope he doesn't suffer for too long if it's not meant to be.

Janet


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sending prayers for Willie. I really hope he makes it. Sometimes you will be surprised.


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

*Sad*

Thank you for all you are doing for this poor little darling. I sure hope he makes it. I know the odds are against him, but he is in the best hands he could be in for any chance of survival.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

You might try putting him under a heatlamp so that he actually stays hot to the touch on the feathers. We had one like that many years ago that we named "Skippy"--ultra-emaciated, worms, sicker'na' dog... She pulled through after three months but she had to have that heat lamp hanging directly over her perch (about 8 inches above it, actually) for almost three months. Obviously, they must have plenty of water close at hand and they need to be able to get out from under it, but when they're like that they usually don't stray far or for long.

Pidgey


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

Poor, poor Willie. Life has been terribly unkind to him. I pray with all my heart he lives and goes on to have a joyful life with you! If not, may he fly with the angels.


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

Hope Willie makes it, c.hert.

Larry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear about Willie, keep him warm as Pidgey mentioned in previous post.

Hope he makes it! 

Thank you for all you are doing for him.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Pidgey for the suggestion. I have two heating pads surrounding this bird on two side in the corner and he is warm to the touch and he normally migrates to this corner to sit there. He is still alive and the only few things that I can report is: His eyes are now open instead of closed and he stretched two times and his breathing is slower and less noisey but he just sits there in the corner with the heat and my house is real warm as well--no drafts anywhere and even heat--(hot water heat) and I got some of the powder food down him at 4pm about 10cc. I also got some strained carrots baby food down about 2 cc's and I put him back in his cage. The next disturbance will be his final antibiotic medicine session at 8pm and then I do the waiting game until morning. He does look more comfortable and yes Pidgey that is what we need "heat" but I don't like the lamps and will use heating pads instead---thank you---and thank you everyone for your good thoughts...c.hert


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## roadrunnermike (Nov 14, 2009)

*I Hope Your Willie makes it*



c.hert said:


> I was not going to post this but I figure it might be a education experience for people and will follow the story from the beginning. Willie is a wild pigeon that was fenced about 5 days ago and two hugh black birds were just pounding on him to get him off the fence and I heard the noise and saw the scene and stood with my broom on guard duty for 30 minutes until they left so that I could brush Willie with the broom for him to fall into the right yard-my yard. He was very light in feel--smelled of canker--and I am sure worms too and he had a broken wing badly hanging plus full of bugs that one could actually see crawling around and so very very thin--starving as well. I could not get a vet appointment until yesterday and cancelled it and made another one today at vet 2 a woman doctor who is close to where I live. At this point Willie is dying and neither her or I expect him to live through the night.
> We did a extenstive evaluation of the situation and he has canker plus a major problem with his lungs for we saw the areas on the xray as well as being hit by those birds three or four times to where he has muscle and tendon damage on the left wing that shows up white----but the wing is not broken. Willie also has motility problems to where he can not digest his food we think and are watching this plus a real deep breathing harsh coming from his lungs and its expansive. We don't know if it is a fungus or a bacteria but we are treating him for all this. Right now the first set of medicines to try to stabalize him is for me to continue the Metronidaz 50mg/ml Xcc.. Give 0.13 milliliter orally 2 times a day. For beginning medicine to fight a bacteria in the lungs and general we also have him on Enrofloxacin/cc giving 0.18 milliliter orally 2 times a day for 10 days. Also we have him on a strickly liquid diet of "Emerard" (water mixed with powder 12-14 cc about three or four times a day. This is his beginning treatment and will observe to see what is happening. Later if we need to he will get a motility drug to move food through his system as well as a possible switch of medicine for a fungus infection if these first drugs don't improve him. The vet did not give Willie much hope nor I and we really can't see him making it much longer---he is very very sick....He is warm and peaceful and safe from those big black spikey winged birds (big crows maybe)?? and I just wanted to share this story concerning his medical diagnosis and we will go from here and believe me it might not be coming good news. The vet suggested putting him down and she never suggest this to me---then she said---You want to give him a chance don't you? Then she said see me on Saturday for a reevaluation of the medicine--don't have to bring the bird just your self to pick up a different set of medicines if this does not improve him and we will take this step by step.
> Thats where we are right now with Willie and he is sleeping peaceful until I wake him up for his "Emerard" (powder and water food)....c.hert


That is so sad when any animal or bird is sick or injured, and You are doing all You can,, I have a Willie too, so I know how You must feel, Good Luck!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I do believe a pigeon by the name of Willie is kind of special and I am sharing with this bird all your good wishes...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Willie is holding his own and still alive and he is about the same--no real improvement and not going downhill either as far as I can tell. He did have 2 droppings all green and one all white (urine looks like) and I gave him his last dose of medicine for this day. Tomorrow is another day and hoping he still will be with us..He is sleeping peacefully now and nice and warm and hydrated so we will see how this goes. At least no big birds will get him on this evening...Sad to see a bird sick and they have no complaints--such character they have and wish more people were like them...Good night everybody . Will post again tomorrow....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Willie is doing better and crawling around more and found him in front of the water dish and he drank and his droppings 7 of them look much better a lighter shade of green tending towards brown with white mixed in and he seems a bit stronger and his body is warm without heat source and eyes are open instead of shut----he is headed in the right direction --and I am slightly more optimistic but guarded as well because he is not up on his hocks as of yet.....c.hert


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

That is GOOD news! I was a nervous wreck all morning. (When I finally got to sleep!!)


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

keep it up C.Hert - you are doing a great job and all we can do in such situatons is give our pals the best chance possible ! Hopefully things will keep moving in the right direction. Am wondering f some sort of anti-inflammatory would help (even just some Children's Motrin liquid or something - .03cc for an underweight feral - although if he's on the up maybe best not to add a 3rd med). Regarding the lungs (down the road a bit)- do you happen to have a nebulizer ?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I do have a inflammatory and no on the nebulizer but I will check on these things on Sat when I talk to the vet about the next step in the process. I am afraid now with any more medications because at this point Willie is moving in the right direction---not on his hocks yet but there is a possiability that it might be the wing damage in three spots where we think the big crows hit for we saw this on the xray and there are two spots--good size on his lungs that is a infection and we are trying to rule out a fungus at this time and his breathing has very much improved---no harsh sounds and more smooth in character but I certainly will check about the nebulizer but right now will keep everything the same as long as he is heading in the right direction....I am looking at him now and he is cleaning himself for the very first time----Yes.....Thanks for those valuable suggestions Jaye--appreciate ....Will feed him again at 1030am and it is 930am. and This takes about 30 to 40 minutes because I go little by little for him to swallow---don't want anymore problems with the lungs--he is taking the food well----and drinking on his own---Yes......6 dropping more and much more thicker---green brown with white...keeping a eye on things---thanks for the communication---And Pigeonlove what in the world am I to do with you get a nice cup of tea my friend because everything is headed in the right direction.........c.hert


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Definitely sounds like a BIG improvement, keep up the good work, that is good of you not to overstress him.

I'm glad we have another Willie on the forum, sending good wishes for a BEST EVER healing.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> I am looking at him now and he is cleaning himself for the very first time


I love it when they recover enough for a little preen!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Feefo: I just fed him his second feeding and he ate 10 cc of emerad (powder and water I mix) plus 1cc of baby strained carrots and 1cc of strained baby peas., also 1 cc of water and I have to take this really easy don't want to upset the lungs any more...The good thing is : He grunted at me---and felt stronger in my hand---and his eyes are now wide open and he actually tried to flap at me when I got him out of the cage and he had 5 or 6 droppings from this morning feeding and they looked really good. I just rolled him out of the kitchen to the living room east window to get some sun (a little) and he is warm there because the window has hot water heating vents right under it plus I have two heating pads set up in the corner of the cage on the outside of the bars with a towel over these to keep the heat going in the right direction and he has actually crawled to that corner at times and he drank on his own this morning --one time----His breathing is not as loud and its more even and he is no longer gasping for breath so thats improving too.Next medicine at 2:30 pm (Metronidaz 0.1 milliliter--last one for the day) then his third feeding at 3.00pm) and if everything continues to go well his next medicine will be at 5pm (Enrofloxacin 0.18 milliliter)last one for the day...and I will feed him at 5:30--6.00pm and this will be his last feeding unless I decide to feed him once again at 8pm. Thats the schuedule for now.. I did call up the vet and left her a message about a nebulizer but she is not in right now and will be back on Sat...Maybe she will pick up her e-mail but Willies breathing is definitely improved.....Its 11.45am now....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey Feefo an after thought see post above for you--but the after thought is I rolled him into the living room because I have to do laundry in the kitchen area and don't want him breathing anything in the air as well as my dishes as well as my floor---Gosh--Birds are a lot of work---and my two new birds Pablo and Jasper have their cages open and they are jumping around on a exercise course set up for them and free now in the bird room. I also have a squeaker with no tail in my female section of the loft doing very well and I am waiting for the tail feathers to grow back and talk about laundry my goodness I will never finish house work for this day--mostly bird cotton nesting circles--and towels and wash cloths and old towels and new towels--goes on and on when you have birds in your house under these conditions.....I know you can duplicate all of this so I decided to share it with you......c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

This is another demension to this story. Willie is absolutely now normal. I put down a control number of seed--no corn--nothing with a large husk that could scratch his throat smaller seed and peas white and green and small barley and flax and put it in a small dish just in case he decided to eat this small amount of seed but I picked up all grit and he has fresh water. When I went to the vet yesterday morning I told her the first couple of days he had a very large amount of droppings well formed light brown with some white and some green and this happened for two days---hugh quanity of droppings---then all at once it stopped---and no droppings at all just white urine--and never had a appetite to eat and I supplemented him by feeding seed but I found the seed in the nest box either they were throw up or they came out the other way--could not figure which way it was and they were wet and sticky--so I figured that he threw them all up---he took a real turn for the worse here---breathing difficulty and eyes shut and limp but still alive but was cold to the touch and I keep him on a heating pad on low and brought him to the vet in that condition and she examined him and took xrays of his lungs:his stomach and his wing..I already had him on Metronidaz that I administered to him for 2 or 3 days and it seemed to be helping. She got some droppings and did a throat swab and we put him back into the container that I carried him in and I said what is this--?
The vet asked you feed your birds that size corn and I said "No" thats not my food and there was three very very large pieces of corn plus 2 pieces of what looked like square pieces of soft hominy and we just looked at one another. Then she said that must be from when you got him and it was throw up and she said : You know people lace corn that size with poison and we just looked at one another. Then we thought of activated charcoal and another antibiotic to give him instead of our process of elimination treatment with these two antibiotics he is now on but this was 5 days prior and if he was poisoned it was too late now to do the activated charcoal and it would absorb the new antibiotic that he was going to be on so we decided to stay on our program that he is on now and see if he improves...She asked me if he had any convulsions or tremors and I said "no" just at one point his eyes closed and got real cold to the touch and limp and I put him on a heating pad and gave him water and brought him here. Willie had improved overnight so quickly and now he seems absolutely normal and I am letting him eat a small amount of seed and I am still supplementing with this emerad (power and water)----but If I had to put an opinion in here--:"I think willie was poisoned but he just didn't get enough" and now with that throw up of 3 hugh corn pieces and white soft hominy" I do believe he is totally out of danger and on the road to recovery but I still will give him the proscribed antibiotics and supplement his feeding with this Emerad. That was our problem when we left the vet and we decided to stay the course with the treatment she recommanded and I expected a long time in recovery but this is only the second day of treatment and Willie is absolutely normal in every way at this time--He is on his hocks walking around and eating and drinking and eyes open and he is alert and warm to the touch and he slaps at me and grunts and grooms himself---I think Willie was poisoned. He fine right now.....c.hert


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## rackerman (Jul 29, 2009)

Thats great news...... Thank God!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Wonderful news!

You may want to change the title of your thread.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I am going to take a print of this whole thread when it gets done and send it to the Vet Dr. Joni Edwards to show her Mr. Willie had friends all over the nation---can't wait until Saturday when I see her again..thanks everyone......c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert...


Any old Kernals of what had possibly been Avicide Corn, remaining in the Crop, once Crop is empty of formula, you can gently massage these up and out, one-at-a-time, by locating them first with your finger-tips.


Weak Pigeons such as this can also be prone to Candida/Yeats...

When I see similar things - old not from me Seeds being thrown up days after my getting them in, or, Seeds I had provided being thrown up, I will treat for Candida/Yeasts...either with ACV-Water being used to mix the formula, or, with 'Medistatin'...or both...whether or not Canker is being treated for.


Ceyanne Pepper, ground, dry, there are various ratings for how 'hot' it is, but, it is an anti-inflammitory, and circulation improver, and may be added to the formula.


When I am using it, I add enough for the formula to be a sort of medium-hot rating, where, say, most people would be able to tolerate it alright and or enjoy it, if it were a sauce or gravy or curry.

Curry Powder similarly, and or Curry Powder with added Ceyanne, can help them, help with lessening inflamations, improved circulation, slowing down some orders of undesireable micro-organisms, helping Medicines reach 'deeper'...etc.


Canker can occasion inflamitory debris which resembles 'Tofu' in consistency.

Chunks of this in their digestive system, once breaking loose in responce to the Medications, will normally pass on through the digestive system, being procesed however so, according to how high they start out.

If a chunk or chunks are encountering a constriction ahead of it/them, such as where a similar chunk has not yet dislodged...or where lesions or less elasticity may be present, or, if Seeds or formula are encountering an area of the digestive system where an inflamitory debris artifact is already partially obturating, they may make a 'Dam' of sorts, preventing further materials/foods/Formula from passing...


In an ideal world, the successive dislodgement of inflamitory debris artifacts would occur from the rear forward, thus alleviating any clogs occasioned by inconvenient sequence.


How well their Gizzard may be functioning in these situations, is uncertain...and Seeds may pass the Gizzard, without being thoroughly masticated.


I would with-hold Seeds untill you are sure all potential inflamitory debris artifacts have both dislodged, and, been processed by the Pigeon's digestive system, and are expelled as fecal related matter...otherwise, when treating for Canker, or, for other illnesses associated with having the potential for generating inflamiroty debris artefacts in the digestive system, one can inadvertently invite blockages impeding elimination, and stopping mechanically, further digestive/elimination process.

Or, I would consider to with-hold Seeds for say 10 to 12 days anyway...if not a little longer, since these debris artifacts can be tenacious, and or, for any given strain of the Trichomona infection, a given medicine may be potentially slow to eliminate the infection and free the debris to pass.

Such debris can occur in the lower Crop or in the passage of Crop to Stomach, where, formula will pass, but, Seeds may not.


I have wondered if there might not be Enzymes, which if given Orally, could not aid in dissolving such debris, through various regions of the digestive system...


But anyway...


Might be relevent to your undertaking...


Good luck!


Phil
Lv


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## Rockie (Jan 18, 2005)

Wonderful news! You and Willie have done a great job! Keep it up!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Pdpbison: wonderful information and I will pull the small amount of seeds for now and keep supplementing with the emerad and the two antibiotics---thanks ..c.hert


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> am going to take a print of this whole thread when it gets done and send it to the Vet Dr. Joni Edwards to show her Mr. Willie had friends all over the nation


Make that the world, c.hert! 

Cynthia


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert,


Yes...I think that would be best.

Stay with thin formula, adding whatever suppliments you like to it...and keep those Poops coming.



He may well have eaten Avicide ( probably 'Avitrol' ) Corn...and, not had it pass his Crop because of inflamation/debris issues between Crop and Stomach, or in the lower end passage of the Crop, thus saving his Life, even though his Life was being eroded and compromised by a Canker infection...especially if he then had trouble flying well enough to find Water.

Avitrol Corn, followed by ample Water, is usually 'death'...

Avitrol Corn followed by not finding Water, can mean the Bird survives.

Possibly, he has some Kernals, still whole or mostly whole, at any stage of his digestive system, if his Gizzard received them and was not masticating at that time...so...several possibilities of obturating or blocking artefacts...but, my guess, is that he had inflamitory and or debris problems up high, preventing these large Kernals from passing.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Nice to hear that he is doing so well.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Just fed Willie his last supplement feeding for this day and his last antibiotic and now he is hydrated:warm and in bed for this night. He is absolutely normal in every way and his breathing is normal as well and he is getting very very hard to feed because now he seems to have his strength back and I am tired. So sweet dreams to him..thanks everyone for your imput and I will sleep real well tonight. I also put Pablo and Jasper in their cages for night and they are doing really well--they were free today...c.hert


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

That is really exciting news! Talk about a rewarding experience!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

pdpbison: I think we are on the right track now and it is a real possiblity either way . The vet and I looked real good at that corn and hominy looking substance and I smelled it and it smelled like the bird--kind of a canker smell but not quite but anyway since the bird seems to be doing real well on this routine I am going to hang with it to see how he progresses tomorrow. I got 10 cc down of emerad and 1 cc strained carrots and 1 cc of strained baby peas and he seems better on this for now. After a few early days of pooping all those bulky poops brown color mostly and then a complete stop and then as I supplemented with seed and gave him Metronidaz on my own he improves but then I began to find all the seeds either threw up or out the other way--lots of them--the vet asked me if they had urine on them and I brought her a sample of a few I had and they seem sticky so we didn.t know which way they came from and thats when he went on the liquid diet (emerad-powder and water) because of possible slow motility and this sat we are going to visit the situation again and his testing will be back by that time--for worms--the other testing needs more time to grow so to speak if it was a fungus of some kind in his lungs---that was our concern--his lungs because he was having a very hard time breathing and gasping and will revisit this on saturday. But he is absolutely normal in breathing at this time and slapping and grunting and preening and walking and does not stay near the heat pads no longer and right now standing in front of where the seed dish was wanting seed....His last dropping had a lot of liquid in it but looks good beside that new developement but he is drinking more on his own as well. He looks wonderful and alert and mad as well for now he slaps a whole lot at me....Thanks for the imput..I will just keep a eye on him and he can just go to bed for this night. c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert, 



Wonderful to hear!


Watery poop is probably his drinking now and over-doing it a little in his enthusiasm...


My bet, is the whole bloated Seeds and Corn were thrown up from the low Crop ( well, that is as far as they could have gotten, to be thrown up later, so...)


Glad he is rid of them...

Old Seeds like that get nasty indeed and are best thrown up and out.




Once he on empty again, you can carefully feel or lightly pinch his low Crop area, and, see if you feel anything else solid still there.

Whole Seeds which get pooped out tend to have staining from Bile or other, and appear musty-darkish looking ( usually ) or tinted dark in splotchy/grainy ways...where, Seeds which get thrown up, merely appear hydrated-moist, bloated, sticky if infection or Candida are present in the Crop, and may have a Canker Odor as you observed, or, smell like fermentation in unpleasant ways, or just smell horrible, if they had been festering in a stew in there.


Anyway...


Wow...good going!!


Wonderful news of his standing, walking, preening, grunting..!


Phil
Lv


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I really have a feeling of what parents go through when their child is sneezing in the night time--worry time---. When in the last three hours this pigeon has sneezed three times and on the first one I was concerned but kept paying attention then the 2nd time I was really getting concerned but just laid down quietly figuring I will just go to sleep and not pay any more attention to this but I just heard him rustling around in the dark room and making noise and I figured I better look in the cage to see what he is up to because he just sneezed for the three time in three hours so I put on the night light as to not disturb him and here he is in total darkness standing on one foot and cleaning himself under his wings and his tail and ruffling his feathers and I softly tell him "you better go to bed". Thats why he is sneezing and now I am wide awake and going to eat something now that he got me so awake and his 4 new droppings are just wonderful. Now I know how parents feel in the night when their child is sneezing..c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I bet you will sleep great tonight when you finally get back to bed. Both of you!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yippee!


Yeahhh...they do not sleep much normally, or once feeling better.


And their preening-dander-dusts CAN make them sneeze! Just as they can make us sneeze if we get a toot-full...


Lol...


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

*Awesome job C Hert !!!*


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I am so happy for you and Willie! This has been a most informative thread and thanks for posting!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

doveone52: Willie is doing excellent and thank you for the interest and concern. Just fed him and gave him one of the antibiotics and he is taking it really well. He is getting his strength back and grunting trying to ram me and flapping at me and just plain mad at me but thats good for this shows he is really improving. Right now he is completely relaxed flat sitting and looking out the window and the east sun is on part of the cage. He really likes to sit in the sun and this is good and now he is walking and not crawling around---vast improvement and this even surprised me for I figure many weeks of recuperation. tomorrow I regroup with the vet and see some of the testing results. Thanks for your good wishes as well....c.hert


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

This just gets better and better! I am so glad that you decided to give him a chance and that your vet supported that decision! I look forward to further updates.

Cynthia


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, am very excited about Willie's recovery!

WELL DONE! Updates will be eagerly awaited!

A note about the sun...From what I understand, pijies won't get the sun's full benefit through windows. Some take their pijies outside in their home to get some sun.

I have to watch the angle of the sun on my balcony where VAL is growing back his right wing flights. I cover part to give him some shade. Luckily, I have BIG shade trees, so later in the morning, the "shade" is removed and he can "talk" to a couple of his feral friends! 

Love and Hugs
Shi


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad to hear!


Yes...as Shi mentions, while indoor Sunshine may feel nice of course, being outdoors, for direct Sunshine, is ideal, and important for them to their Vitamin D production, which Glass filtered Sunlight can not provide.

Most convelescents seem to really like being outside in a Sun Cage anyway...the fresh Air, seeing their fellows fly and court and graze and so on...it is good for them.

One can also get the little 400 IU gelcaps of Vitamin D, and these once wet are very slippery and slide down their gullets perfectly...this and direct Sunshine, are a good thing for convelescents, or, any long time indoor Birds.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

When they start dehydrating and starving in earnest out in the wilds, they can wilt pretty fast just like any of us. In such cases, rehydration and then food can seem to cause absolute miracles to happen. Of course, if a disease has taken hold it can quickly become quite another thing but you never know until later.

Pidgey


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Good information everyone and I did not know about the glass windows not giving them the full benefit of the sun and I plan to get willie "outside" when the weather here permits and I want a nice warm day with no cold chill in the air. I have been feeding Willie some cut up lettuce and he loves this--I figure it is soft enough food for his digestive track to get back to normal and I did give him some hard boiled egg to as a supplement to his Emerad (powder and water) plus baby strained peas and carrrots and he takes this pretty good and his droppiongs have been amazing to say the least--well formed and beautiful so things are looking up for him. My east window is not direct sun only in the early morning and I have honey locust tree out there that a squirrel scampers down once in awhile and willie just likes to look at that tree and the sun only hits a fourth of his cage and he can get out of the sun anytime he wants---but he prefers it and just relaxes and hangs out. At night time he gets frisky and I sware he has his time backwards and now he has decided he wants out of the cage and he is a handful when I clean the cage or get him for his food and antibiotics and he is filling out a little but still on the thin side but he has not exercised either and thats coming when I place him in the birdroom after the vets results start coming in...Thanks everyone--everything is fine here and will fill you in on what the vet says tomorrow--she is going to be amazed just like I was and now I have more laundry to do.....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert, 



Glad to hear...you are doing a great job..!


Just to mention some Foods for Convelescents ( though they are great for any Pigeons or Doves also, of course! )


- Cilantro Leaves torn or cut up into little bits are very good...the thin parts of Swiss Chard or other 'dark' Leavy Greens similarly, but Cilantro would be best probably for any Birds getting over infections or illness...best Nutritionally, and in other virtues...are a much better way to go far as Greens than usual Lettuces.

Lettuces generally, sadly, ( unless Wild, or, exotic and non factory farm produced and from remarkable high quality Soils ) are approximately worthless for any nutrition/vitamines/minerals etc...

Cilantro also lessens many undesirable Bacteria in the upper GI, tastes good, is very tender and thin, supplies some valuable Chlorophyl ( as would any fresh leafy Green ), is easily digested, and does not cost much for a 'bunch', and keeps well in the 'frige.

Whether fed by the fingers, or, set in a little pile next to their Seeds, either way.

Once the Pigeon or Dove has tried them, they will usually really like having that little pile now and then.


"Goji-Berries", ( they usually come semi-dry or are already dry, so ) soaked till bloated, cut in half, 'Seed-Popped' into their Beak or Throat, are a very good thing also for the Convelescent, lots of valuable antioxidants, chock-full of valuable Vitamines and Nutrients, easy to digest, etc...

If the Bird ( once well enough for eating Seeds again ) will peck and eat them dry, cut up into thirds or fourths, then that is fine also of course.

Convelescents who are not yet self feeding, or, who are ready for some solid Foods which are soft and not Seeds, some pre-soaked Goji-Berries cut up into small pieces, are great.

Black Cherry, Goji-Berry, or Mulberry or Elderberry Juices, unsweetened concentrates or Syrups, are very good to add to their formulas, also.

Carrot Juice, fresh made, in-a-bowl ( maybe 50/50 with Water ) for them to sip, or, in formula...also excellent if not better than excellent.

Tiny Bites of fresh Apple, also...very good for them...easy to digest...tastes good...Seed-Popped...or, in a dish if they will peck them.


A little raw Garlic...cut into tiny bits...a little of that now and then is very good also.


Hmmmmmmmm, now I am hungry!


Lol...


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Gosh you made me hungry and today I am going to get some cilantro and cut that up and see what becomes of it and all the ingredients are very nice to know about and these I will put in my pigeon book...This bird is so very well when I see the vet today I am taking the bird--for I want her to see this "bad" bird in person. I know how this pigeon survived--it was his attitude--he is a mess--and I am sure by this attitude that he is a male and he comes at you like a bull when you enter the cage. I want her to experience this bird "first hand" He is so bad that I can only get half the food down him and today I will ask her about letting him eat some seeds on his own for a bit. He is hungry for seeds for he hangs where his seed dish was and looks at me with those two bb black eyes of his and like I say: "he is a mess".....everything fine...can't wait to get some results from the testing..and see if he gained some weight which I think he has..Thanks....c.hert


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I know you'll give us a full report. He sounds like a rascal!
And pdpbison, thanks for the nutritous food ideas! I'm going to get some goodies for my birds!


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

On the contrary Phil, lettuce IS good for the birds. Aside from iceberg lettuce, which is mostly water, lettuce is nutritious and gives the birds vitamins and minerals. Generally, the darker the greens, the more nutritious. I like to mix in different ones, chop them up and put it in the loft. The birds flock to it. They also like chopped or grated carrots, and kale. Spinach is a good one, but my birds don't seem as impressed by it. Chard is good also, but they didn't like that as much either. The different lettuces they love. 

http://health.learninginfo.org/nutrition-facts/lettuce.htm

http://www.healthrecipes.com/lettuce.htm

http://www.healthrecipes.com/lettuce.htm


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Our pigeons love their greens! 

They get round and romaine lettuce, wild rocket, watercress and spinach. It was because of their love of rocket that I developed a taste for it !


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Feefo: I don't know what "rocket" is but I will check it out on the internet..
Now to the vet visit for Willie and when I entered a man was coming out with a chicken telling Dr. Joni that she had him wait so long and then when he got there he had to wait even longer and that he will never be back and took his chicken and down the steps he went with the medicines she gave him...It seemed that he would leave his chicken eat around the compost pile and she told him not to let his chicken eat that and she was doing a fecal on it and this takes awhile and he was unhappy because he had to wait so long but at that time she had a dog emergency and he just had to wait--thats all she could do at the moment. He was yelling at her when I arrived and she is having a bad day and shared the above story with me. I was waiting in my truck because it was warmer than in the vet"s office and she was still working on the emergency so she came out and got me and I said: Don't leave that man ruin you day and look how pretty it is out here and she looked around and agreed and we went inside. But it soon turned to happiness when Willie first out of his container bite her and she said "ouch" then he slapped both wings at her and tried to butt her (he did not disappoint me) all at the same time of grunting at her...She said: "look at that wing now" almost normal...Then she weigh him and he gain 25 grams. She also informed me that he had no parasites and so far nothing was growing for a fungus and his breathing sounds were wonderful and his droppings were excellent. She told me to continue what I was doing and said start adding a small amount of seed (that he will eat on his own) and hand pick it so that there are no rough edges because his throat is still sore. She told me in three days stop the first antibiotic because that will be the 10th day on that medicine and continue the Enrofloxacin until the 10th day then drop it but continue to give the Emerad and make it a little thicker if I can--because he is such a "bad boy"...She told me to offer him different types of lettuce and some grated carrots and a piece of apple and just basically stay the path that I am on for everything looks wonderful. She said if any seeds should throw back up or his throats get sore--to call her and we will recheck the situation out.
I asked her about probiotics and she said unless they gear them for pigeons she would not recommand because of something to do with the lactic acid and I did not get what she said and I said I would not give the pigeon probiotics then and just watch its nutrition and droppings real good and make sure it is warm and hydrated and when the throat clears up more I can exercise the bird but keep it on its routein for now. She was amazed and I was amazed and I question what she thought this was and she thought that the pigeon eat something real bad and we might not never know the answer and just shook our heads. I asked her if she thought that there was a possiblity of those hugh pieces of corn blocking something or interfering with his breathing and she didn't commit to a answer --just shrugged her shoulders like: "I don't know"...So as we put Willie back in his container he was grunting all the way we both looked at him and both of us now are shrugging our shoulders: We just don't know....Willie is home now and fine. What a day....c.hert


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## Pigeonlove (May 6, 2008)

What a clown tha Willie is!! So the name of this thread is about right: "Willie on the way out....THE DOOR!!" (Glad for all the good news!!)


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

When I heard about Willie's reaction to the vet I had to grin. What a character...what a change! It is incredible that only three days ago after visiting the vet you posted: " At this point Willie is dying and neither her or I expect him to live through the night." 

The first vet that I took a rescued pigeon told me "He will probably die during the night...on the other hand, pigeons are stubborn, so he might survive!" (He did).

As for probiotics, I use products that are produced specifically for birds, like Avipro Plus and Potent Brew. There are also probiotics that are specifically for pigeons.

Cynthia


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Glad he is doing so well. A good bird probiotic would be good to use after you are done with the antibiotics. It will put the good gut bacteria back into him that the antibiotics killed along with the bad bacteria. They should always get this after being treated with antibiotics.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Jay3 and I have come to the conclusion that I am afraid of this bird and I have to get him for a feeding and his last antibiotic for this day and besides that He has three loose feathers--real soft kind--one is above his eye and the other one under his beak and the third one on his wing and these I will remove from him. After this treatment he will go to bed early so that I can have a break. All this excitement with this crazy I never really notice what kind of feather arrangement he had on him--just thinking he was just a grey pigeon but he"s not---he"s a bluebar but his strips are not pretty and even and they are kind of zig zag looking with dark and light grey in different spots and no white on his tail but whitest on his back and he has big dark eyes with a black bb in the center of the eyes. He is pretty in his own way but boy does his temperament need adjusting.
He also has a beautiful black beak with white smudges on it from the Emerad powder and water feeding I guess and he is young but not that young. right now he is laying flat on the cotton kitty circle and getting his strength back I guess. Thanks everyone for your much needed replys and encouragements and good advice and information... and Happy Mothers Day Everyone. c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert, 



Sounds good!


Seed wise, the smallest kinds of whole round Seeds would be the best bet for now...see how those go.

Canary Seed, Finch Seed...the littleset size Seed mixes...

If you can cut the Greens, Carrot, Apple into tiny Bite size peck-sized Bites, also...he might just peck and eat them...and they would pass easiest if very small bits like that.

So glad to hear of to-days Vet visit...very charming..!


Phil
Lv


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

WOW, I just found this thread and almost didn't read it because of the title! I had a really rough past couple days and didn't think I could handle any more bad or sadness!
Great job c.hert!! Sounds like you have a real fighter


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Msfreebird.. This has been a real rough week on many counts and I am glad it is over. I have given up feeding this bird the Emerad supplement but he is still on antibiotics until the 10th day and thats coming soon but he is eating seed and drinking and doing everything that birds do and is really a strong bird at this point. In a few weeks I will release him with a squeaker that really is as adult now--just waiting for his tail feathers to grow back so that he can fly better--he is out in the loft with the other birds and doing very well--eats like a little pig....I am hand chopping up lettuce and cilantro and carrots for all the birds and my whole table is full and I need to chop it up really small---what a job this is--and I have decided to buy a food chopper and I am so curious to know if they will eat this cilantro mixed with romanine and I added some wheat germ and husked unsalted sunflower seed for a treat put tiny piece of apples. so for this Mothers day they will get this as a treat--all of them---. Next month is going to real a real thrill---enlarging my space in the loft--for handicapped birds since I now have six of them that cannot be released--and they will take over my "private space" but it will house about 10 more birds and I am at my limit... Instead of two small spaces I am going to make one large room with the right side being for the disabled including ramps and bottom window with a guard for them to go out and get sun and take a bath if they want. Then all my birds will be in the loft and "out of my house" because this can be a drag at times and I will still seek a volunteer to have breakfast with me and I think right now Jasper is nominated because he is a calmer bird and needs some company I feel. Pablo could get along with everybody outgoing and really has a amazing personality and very smart and I can see how he made it with one wing out in the world--neat bird.. Well Happy Mothers Day and its time for me to finish my chopping....c.hert


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## Gnuretiree (May 29, 2009)

What a terrific job you've done for that lucky, lucky bird. 

Hugh


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

c.hert said:


> --he"s a bluebar but his strips are not pretty and even and they are kind of zig zag looking with dark and light grey in different spots and no white on his tail


 Sometimes irregular bars indicate the pigeon harbored an illness while the feathers were coming in - it could be he has been fighting something for a long time and finally almost succumbed (before fortunately meeting you) & BTW - 'Ultraflora' is a really good probiotic which my avian vets prescribe for their birds sometimes


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Jaye said:


> Sometimes irregular bars indicate the pigeon harbored an illness while the feathers were coming in - it could be he has been fighting something for a long time and finally almost succumbed (before fortunately meeting you) & BTW - 'Ultraflora' is a really good probiotic which my avian vets prescribe for their birds sometimes



That's interesting. I didn't know that.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Jaye for the information and I am adding all these different probiotics to my pigeon book and this is becoming a secretary job at this point. Yea I read about that and they call them fret marks and when birds are young as their feathers are growing in and if they get not enough of nutrition and upset their feathers come in like that with fret marks (hope I got the spelling right) and these zig zags don't look like that--looks more because of its parents contributing different strips and then it has that whitest marking on its back---makes it look like a spot of white or something--this is truely a "mutt" bird and its personality is like a eagle---this one belongs out in the wild---and Willie is doing very well and will eat the lettuce and did eat some carrots but has not touched the Cilantro just yet and thats what I want him to eat ..(go figure). Jasper is sitting beside his cage moaning and groaning and the canary is just beginning to get longer notes or chirps I should say--think it is a female--not sure...Pablo with one wing jumps to the floor and I am afraid he is going to get hurt --won't use the ramp---so I have two real soft new throw rugs plus a smaller table that has a throw rug on it to make it soft so he now can go half-way and then the rest of the way to the floor---this birds likes floors and he hops up the steps to the attic landing because there are two small windows getting the breeze from the attic window and its a closed area and this is where he likes to be and you can guarantee I went through the floor surface and steps with a fine tooth comb to make him not to have anything to peck at and I put a cat circle (cotton) and he is taking a afternoon nap like they all do... They are all settled in and doing very well. c.hert


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## Jaye (Mar 13, 2008)

Jay3 said:


> That's interesting. I didn't know that.


 Yup - very interesting !Another member told me that - here's that thread - photo of example at post #17 and reply at post #19 - http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/wh...c-of-39014-2.html?highlight=barrio#post418618

(apologies for brief digression, CHert)


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Gnuretiree: Did not see your nice post....As far as the Cilantro goes we got a mixed bag here. The males pushed all the lettuce off the plate and on to the floor to separate it out and left it. The females in the loft might have actually ate some but not with Gusto because they left a lot. the canary ate it and the lettuce. The diamond doves might have ate some but left most of it. the three inside pigeons: Pablo:Jasper:Willie did not eat any of it. the most insulting bunch of pigeons were the males---they pushed it completely off the plate and separated what they wanted and left the cilantro. These birds are a mess but they are all fine tonight and I just said: Beddy Bye--to all--as I sit down and enjoy my tea. Those were real nice thoughts Gnuretiree---Thanks....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well I have not posted in awhile for I have been so busy lately..Our Willie is doing just excellent eating on his own (thank God) and drinking on his own and he is feeling his oats so to speak. One antibiotic is now dropped and he has a few days left on the second one. His wing is still hurt a bit but getting more normal looking everyday and when I begin to exercise him it will improve more I think but he is still in the cage but now in the bird room. Pablo and Jasper from Elizabethy Mickaboo adoption are really sweet birds and very different in their own way...Jasper has a thing for Willie and goes next to his cage and moans and groans and Willie who is a male does his dance on his kitty cotton nest circle bobbing his head up and down. Jasper volunteered for breakfast time with me where I give him pigeon candy and have my coffee---he is afraid---and not used to the routeine yet but I massage his legs and his wings to try to get them somewhat more coordinated because he has no interest in flying and I have never seened him fly and I know he will in time--just needs more time--and my small amount of physical theraphy every morning and he is beginning to really like the neck rub and his head massaged and I have this small very soft brush and I brush his feet and tail--more or less pretending don't want to dig too far in his feathers "Lightly" and he really is beginning to like this session Then I say--the birds in the loft are going to be very jealous of you with your feathered feet and small fan tail--"Your a lucky Bird" and "Your feet are dirty lets wash them and give them a good massage"---this is the game we play in the morning. He can jump now I guess about 6.5 or 7 inches and I have a series of boxes for him to practice on with my encouragement by way of a wooden spoon for mixing things. He just needs more coordination and he is precious and has a thing for Willie. Pablo is superman and I really need to keep an eye on him so that he doesn"t
"overload his self " with flights of superman with one wing and he has this series of boxes that he flies up and takes the top position and really enjoys looking out the top of the window....I am really enjoying these three birds and they are all so different. Then we have the canary and everytime Jasper makes noises this Peekaboo chirps back and her chirps are now getting longer in notes almost singing but doing very well. This household is good. Its going to snow here in Colorado on wed so get ready people for a lot of moisture and I tell Mr. Willie how lucky he is not to be cold and wet...as he bites me when I get him out for medicine.....He belongs in the wild......Like someone said:
He's on his way out alright---good riddance when that day comes....what a bird..c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

How sweet!

I have found that PPMV Pigeons especially, but any of them too, do like Back and Shoulder Massages.

At first they are put off or nervous or they don't like it...but, with a few gentle introductions, soon they do.

Deep Muscle massages in the shoulders and along the back-Bone sides, lower Neck area, I believe can really help some PPMV Pigeons also...I think some of the legacy we see with them may be about built up toxins in the muscles which do not clear out normally for them...and the massages, and deeper sort of slow one direction 'rubbing' with finger tips, helps clear out the acids or other toxins possibly, which result for them in th muscle tensions the Motor/Neurological legacy occasions...


But, healthy Pigeons ( or Doves! ) can end up really liking to have Massages also, of course!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Jasper is not a PPMV pigeon but was shot with a shotgun and had major problems and had numerous surgeries and almost did not make it but the Mickaboo Pigeon and Dove Rescue saved him and he is doing really well--thanks for those massage tips. c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yipes!



Well...any you do end up doing massages for...or any PPMV neurological legacy ones you may get, now you know!! Though you were already fiding it out of course.


I used to have a couple Morning Doves who lived here, healthy as Horses, and they both loved getting deep back and shoulder massages...as have various PPMV survivors, and others...now and then my Bantam Hen 'Persephone' likes one too...they just get all rubbery and relaxed, like those 'Watches' Salvidore Dali used to paint...


Lol...


I am just so busy all the time, Massages are a pretty seldom deal around here anymore.



Oye, 'Shotgun'...hurts just thinking about it...does he still have shot in him?


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

pdpbison: I believe that they got all the shots out of him and I can't feel any and he is just afraid of things--especially people---. I leave a light on for the Diamond doves and Canary on the steps in back of them--small light 15 watt for them to see a little at night because they are high strung and without this they might really injure themselves in their cages because they fly wildly with vibrations or unexpected noises and this calms them and helps them to see where they are...well anyway---the pigeons cages are covered up on three sides to keep out drafts and I leave the front open but Jasper about news times starts complaining--grunts---and I have to go in and cover up the front of the cage and just leave a spot for him to see out of and air because he wants to be in total darkness because he feels safer like this and then he will sleep all through the night without any more grunts. This is the third time he pulled this and its about 10pm and he has this down pat and seems to enjoy getting me in there to fix his "Blankey". He is such a baby (grown pigeon) but so precious and I am so glad they saved him...c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Ohhhh, yeahhh...some of them can be so afraid...

When I have had ones like that, if I have time, I try and spend time with them on a Towel, on my Lap, where the Towel also covers them up all but for their Head being in a sort of open 'Cave' aspect.

And I have a little Bowl of Seeds in front of them, partway in the 'cave'. where I sort of gingerly 'peck' with my index finger, and or also do light back and shoulder massages.

Implicitly, sharing Seeds is of course one way of saying "This is safe...we are okay...no dangers right now..."


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats cute pdpbison---thanks.....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Like this, more or less...


http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/lap-towell-cave/

Anyway...ones who have a lot of fearful feelings going on...a few rounds of 'Lap Towel Cave', and, their seeing other Birds being comfortable, seems to really help them get over it and relax.


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

I do like your "cave' idea pdpbison! pictures are so cute!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Well I know I have some romance on the mens side of the loft and on the female side too. The mens side has Speckles and Sandleback and Tulip and Trinkle Toes and now I do believe Jasper is in love with Willie and goes out of his cage readily in the morning to sit next to Willies cage and carry on and Willie (that macho finger biter) is carrying on just as bad and they are goggly eyes looking at one another...I keep saying: Jasper don't get too attached but he pays no attention to me and looks forward to just sitting next to Willies cage.. Pablo is in his own world on top looking out the window but if he gets next to Jasper I have a fight on my hands---they don,t seem to like one another---and Pablo could care less about Willie...It passes Jasper and Willie"s day good and drives me crazy with the moaning and groaning.....grunts, dances, and Jasper relaxes really well and just likes being there...Everybody is fine....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

There is nothing like a romance to make a pigeon stand up-right and walk a whole lot better and sit by the romancer and shake its wings for exercise and Willie seems to be doing this for Jasper from Mickaboo Pigeon and Dove rescue and Jasper was shot with a shot gun and the two really seem to like one another a whole lot and it will be interesting when I got Mr Macho (willie) out of the cage and flying free. Now I do have a question. Jasper is a beautiful bird with a kind of 1/4 fan tail without fan but his feet have feathers on them and I wonder if there is anyway that I could trim those feather feet without hurting him to make the feathers more even looking.???? Just thought I would ask in case someone who maybe shows these feathered birds or something--anyway to trim the feathers so that they look nice and he won't step on them..c.hert


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

chert i am so glad to read the story of willie..and know that it seems to be turning out ok. it sounded pretty ominous from your first post! hope willie and jasper get to hang out just a LITTLE bit longer


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats Kamz Willie and Jasper are hanging out too much and Willie is free now in the bird room and Jasper went into Willie's cage and a fight started and I got my wooden mixing spoon and now Jasper is in his cage and willie is on top of another cage calling to him.
You can't tell what these birds are going to do next and Pablo stole Jaspers cage so they are all free doing bird stuff. Love and its troubles...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Jasper and Pablo on now on lock down because I want to leave Willie fly free to get used to the bird one so that he can find his spot. There has been a three way fights and it is dangerous for Pablo and Jasper because I am afraid they will get knocked off the top of the cage by someone and Jasper doe not fly only jumps and Pablo thinks he is superman so they are on lock down. Willie is investigating the bird room and moaning and groaning to Jasper....Pablo and Jasper will get exercise "later" when I put Willie in.....c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Never a dull moment.LOL.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Jay3 these birds are a hand full. I had to work today so I had to put them all in their respective cages but before I did I put Jasper on the floor and watched to see what Willie would do since he called Jasper for well over an hour but Jasper was in lock down. So I waited and waited pretty soon Willie flew down to the floor (never saw him do this) and I hear this awful carry on and I go in and can't find Jasper or Willie and here they are on the first landing to the attic (one step level up) just carrying on with each other--shaking their wings--moaning and groaning---so I left them---and they carried on for 2 hours and finally I tried to put Jasper in Willies cage and Willie would have no part of that and the fight ensued and I separated them and put them in their own cage..funny birds can't really think for them....Tomorrow's another day....c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

c.hert said:


> Jay3 these birds are a hand full. I had to work today so I had to put them all in their respective cages but before I did I put Jasper on the floor and watched to see what Willie would do since he called Jasper for well over an hour but Jasper was in lock down. So I waited and waited pretty soon Willie flew down to the floor (never saw him do this) and I hear this awful carry on and I go in and can't find Jasper or Willie and here they are on the first landing to the attic (one step level up) just carrying on with each other--shaking their wings--moaning and groaning---so I left them---and they carried on for 2 hours and finally I tried to put Jasper in Willies cage and Willie would have no part of that and the fight ensued and I separated them and put them in their own cage..funny birds can't really think for them....Tomorrow's another day....c.hert


Won't work if you try to put them in the others cage. That one sees that as their own territory. It's different if they go in themselves, and still the other will often throw the second one out for a while. Sometimes you just can't win. LOL.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

They had such a good day they are all very silent tonight and I just went in to check on them and they are all sound asleep---maybe I can get some sleep now...the canary peekaboo looks like it has no head with its head under its wing--"cute" It is dreary and raining from this afternoon--maybe a sunny day tomorrow--or maybe not??? Tired of this weather and can't wait for all this to dry out.....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

All three of these pigeons are macho in their own way. Willie is good at biting and I do believe the vet report of not having a broken wing is wrong---maybe not---but I am setting him up another appointment with Vet one to take another xray of that wing and in this case I will not release him. He flys fine but doesn.t have the fine movements and sometimes when he is still he looks good but other times it hangs low from the tip of the wing area--maybe those muscles just need strengthening and time will tell and he is a very agressive bird. Pablo will slap his one wing at you from across the room and moves on the ground of a rate of 500 miles a second (road runner) and Jasper who was shot and does not fly wants no part of humans or other birds and their personalities are really coming out now and I can't wait for them to join the loft birds in time and by that time I will be going batty...They are doing really good and they each now have their own spot after one way fights: two way fights and three way fights and of course I had my wooden spoon but could never leave them alone out when I am out of the house--don't trust not one of them---they are all bad.....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi c.hert,


If you think Willie may have a Wing injury he is still getting over, tape his Primaries together ( over the small of his back ) for another week or to, to permit the Wings some rest...making sure he is in a Cage with his Food and Water of course, thus more likely to keep still.


Phil
Lv


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

What would I tape it with pdpbison? c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Scotch Tape...Masking Tape...just a litle strip an inch and a half long, around the ends of the Feathers...just short of the actual ends...and so the Wings and Feathers are in a natural comfortable position, and, the possibly injured Wing is not sagging. Inside portion of the Primary Feathers brought together...


If he ends up not liking it, strains and struggles against it, then just un-do it, since he would probably stress things more in resenting it, than he would be stressing things with out it.

If he had a cracked Bone or strained Tendons or pulled muscles, he should be encouraged to rest the Wing for a couple more weeks...so...in a cage, in a smallish Cage even, might be good, so he can rest his Wings.

If he is in a milieu, free to fly and cavort and flirt and so on, he will likely be focused on social energies, and forget to rest his Wing.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

You gave good advice but I think in this circumstance I want him to be more in a normal behavior because awhile back he was dying in my hand and I don't want to stress him at this time---just have him eat normal and gain weight---and act natural like he is doing--and he is out free stretching and flying some and I try not to overdo his exercise routeine and let him rest those muscles and tendons a bit at the same time. The vet and I saw three white spots on his left wing and we figured them to be damaged by the black birds hitting him but she could find nothing broken but my real concern here is his one lung that we found a infection looking area and I am waiting for a fungus report on him and I sure hope its in by this week sometime..For now I am just going to leave him be because what ever it was that had him so very very sick I don't want to stress at this time. I will be careful with his exercise and he is gaining weight and looking really good. I wanted to know what kind of tape so that if I get other birds at least I will know what to buy if I have to stablelize a wing or something. Thanks and I will keep you posted on the fungus report....I was thinking along the line of that surgical gauze type material that comes in long strips so that it would not stick to his feathers...and I am seriously wondering about my care---maybe in feeding him and watering him I got something in his lungs (aspiration) but he was real sick when I got him and I just don't know and I just figured some canker or something but all results (worms:canker: are negative) and this worries me some maybe I did something by getting liquid in his lungs because it was really hard to get anything down him including frozen peas and corn...I am going to talk to the vet to see if I can learn to feed birds by a stomach tube in the future and what kind of equipment I need to buy and this will be a learning experience for me. For the first few days I put him on vet medicine Metronidaz and he came around a bit and the vet said that was a good decision on my part because it might have saved his life.But because of the weather and other affairs happening I had to cancel the first vet appointment and I took him to my second vet and thats when the hugh corn and hominy fell out of him because of her manipulation and I believe that saved his life and he got better and better after that experience..So he continues to get well--thank goodness. c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Well...long as his Cage is in the Milieu, he would be fine...far as that goes, far as inspiring stimulations of the social scene...and if he were then 'pacing' and fretting, you could let him out and not bother then.


If a caregiver gets liquids or furmula into and down an already very ill and weak Pigeon's Trachea, it's a pretty sure Bet the Bird will convulse and die right then and there, or, acquire a complex pnuemonia within a day or so, and then die forthwith.


So, I will expect you had not gotten any liquids or formula or foreign food objects into his Trachea, since his recovery process, when plotted on a graph, was all about an upward gradient.


If he had some sort of Lung or upper Respiratory Infection, at least now, his own Immune System is on the mend and improving, so this will help eliminate any loose ends.


My own method for Tube Feeding or other Tubed-in things...well, if you liked, I could make a little casual Thread about it, and, which shows the Impliments I use...and explain a few details of ho to do.

Others could also Post info and images of what they use, and how they do it.


It is very good stuff to know, and, to be able to do safely and gently...since some Birds' conditions will require it to be done.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

If you feel up to that by putting it on a thread that would sure help my education and I believe other people would be interested as well especially when the bird acts paralyzed and won't swallow what you put in its mouth. This has been a very scary incident for me and my confidence is really shook especially after a bird was as sick as Willie was--cold, limp and unconscious seeming but came around some and then back again and I gave up all hope really and when the vet lightly suggested putting him down and she saw a tear move down my cheek and then asked, "You want to give him a chance don't you" as she saw another tear run down and then she got real positive and told me to see her on Sat and we will figure this out step by step and change the medicine if we have to and then when I saw that corn and hominy and we just looked at one another--which way do we go--so we decided to continue the program...She never thought he would make it through the night and either did I but he started getting well and better and better. Yes a thread on tubing feeding in emergency cases would be really nice and I sure hope other people would join in for the knowledge aspect of it. But it is a lot of work but its your decision..and I would greatly appreciate it....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Okay...I will make a little Thread then about 'Mr. Tube' and some of the details and protocols which are important.

I have to deal with various obturated Throats where the Bird can not drink or eat, and no liquid would pass if they tried drinking...so, I have worked out some safe, gentle and useful things then for those, which are very good also even in instances less extreme.


I will just do a little Thread then in segments, so it will not be so imposing or tedious.


Anyway, when you have a chance or are in the mood, have a look into Willie's Mouth, and note the appearence of his Trachea as it is now.


Does all appear nice and healthy 'Pink' in there? in his mouth and Throat?


Do the tiny 'lips' or edge of his Trachea appear pink, merely lightly moist, and no whitish film or edging?

Does it open and close as he Breathes?


If he has some Lung or Upper Respiratory troubles, one would not expect things to appear optimum with such an inspection.

One would tend to see a Tracheal aperature which is remaining open, and which goes from larger to smaller as he Breathes...and or also, seeing a whitish film just inside the edges of it...and or a more purple tone to the inside of his Mouth and Throat, suggesting some Oxygen deficiency, which can accompany Respiratory infections ( or, anemia ).

In any event, becoming familiar with the attributes and features of the inside of their Mouth and Throat is a good thing to do, just in general...and, is necessary as a pre-requisite for any invasive procedures such as any sort of feeding/watering which is other than their eating/drinking on their own.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

I will check him in the morning with my flash light---Oh he's going to love this---I will tuck my fingers in---He's breathing just wonderful and has went to bed early with my encouragement (towel over his cage)....But I will check...Thanks....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Get him into a 'Burrito-Bird' mode...his Legs and Feet straight back and parallel to his Tail, wrapped in a small Towell or other cloth...he will stay put this way...have yourself sitting in a chair, under a bright Lamp which is on a Desk or Table, so you have really good direct light.

Spigot him as a 'Burrito' in-beteen your legs, just so his Tail and Tummy area and extra cloth of the wrap, are what is being held...spigot him thusly, a little ways behind your knees...in the sort of slight hollow there...he can then be held straight up and both your hands are free.

That way, you have both hands free to open his Beak, tilt his Head back, and really get a good look in there.

This in itself is necessary if one wishes to tube feed or do other similar procedures or inspections/evaluations...and without doing this, without really definitely seeing what one is doing, and knowing what and where the features in there are, I do not believe one ought to attempt any sort of into-the-Crop, Tube procedures.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Yea I was trying to imagine how to do this---thanks---because I need both hands to open the beak wide enough to see things so I took a small lamp and prop it up to see if it would work with the light where I need it and I have it propt up with a small pot and black gorilla tape---sounds exciting doesn"t it ---and I have my flashlight for a stand by.
I'll let you know how this works in the morning and I really want to do it quick and take a real good look....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I lay a little Hand-Towell size Towell across my Knees...getting the Pigeon's Legs and Feet pack straight parallel to their Tail, I lay the Bird that way in the trough there...then I take one side of the Towel and wrap it over him, then the other...instant and easy 'Burrito'...then I spigot them as described...making sure no pressure is on their Crop from how they are wrapped.

One will not squish them accidently this way, if they are spigotted so that only the last tapering portion of their Body, and Tail, and the extra Cloth one sees to in how they are wrapped to begin with...is what is being held in the 'hollow' behind one's knees.

Having a good bright Lamp set up in advance, of course, is best.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

The vet and I already checked out this bird fully but to humor you my friend I will attempt to put my delicate fingers to the test and see if I can see a throat really well.
I am writing this so people reading this last posting don't think something is wrong with Willie at this time because he is perfectly fine..But I will be brave and look down this finger biters gullet and see what I can see..If I find anything different I will scream..
c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

It would be good for you to learn how...in case you ever need to...especially if you ever feel a need to administer Liquids or Formula via syringe or Lavage...where, without this basic stage of familiarity, and other successive ones, the chances of inadvertently killing the Bird, are pretty good...especially if the Bird is ill.


Adminstering anything Liquid or Liquidy Foods/Formula into a Bird's Esophagus or Crop directly, is a quite serious and invasive procedure, where, mishap for not seeing what one is doing, accident or misjudgement for not understanding and evaluating the conditions in there, can and reliably will occasion disaster or misadventure...and fast.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats a good lesson---wish me luck my good friend for I am am going to jump into the deep and grab Mr. Willie the Pigeon to do this throat examination and hope everthing looks like it is suppose to....c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

It.s a light pink in shade but the top area has lighter ridges that go all to the back and under the tongue is a hole that looks like it connects to some creases or holes on the side and he was squeaking as well and if I pulled his neck longer it became like a tube but it was much redder in the back and was trying to see further down but I could not and the right side kinda shimmered a light yellow color but mostly pink on how I was looking--moist--not dry---and no mucus--and no odor--..My lamp idea did not work so I open up my blinds and sat in front of the east window and looked in with my flashlight trying to hold him by the windowsill so that I could have both hands free to pull both top and bottom beak open and I did the best that I could. It is easy to just open his mouth as he is sitting on your lap but you don't see anything unless you can look down into the tube somewhat by stretching out his finger biting neck..Thats all I saw...Those lighter ridges on the roof of his mouth looked a little lighter shade--not much lighter but lighter in color--yellow dull but pink and healthy tissue all around..c.hert


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I know. It's a lot easier if you have another person to hold the bird while you look down his throat with a flashlight.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Thats for true especially if you want to see really good....c.hert


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Bear with me...

I will make a little Thread about it.


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

pdpbison: We are bearing with you and can't wait to see the little thread you will begin..c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

Funny how when you live with pigeons for awhile they get to know you and you them.
Every night the three of them: Willie:Jasper: and Pablo start their grumbling at news time and I go in and give them their blankey over their cage and they all go to sleep until morning. I have a small night light in their because I have Diamond Doves and a Canary and its behind their cages--real dull--but all the pigeons want darkness so the blankey helps them go to sleep and its every night at news time....cute birds...c.hert


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

The final report came back on Willie and he has no fungus, no canker, no worms, and what his problem was is a mystery. His lungs are clear...We believe that Willie ate those hugh corn and horminy and for some reason that could get through his system and any food after that collected the poison and he threw it all up and when I gave him seed he also throw up the seed until the 3 large corn pieces and 2 large hominy were dislodge by the vet manipulation of the crop and assorted blood tests and three xrays---this is the only explanation we can imagine. The down side to this is Willie's wing is broken--two small bones near the tip and there is a calcuim buildup with healing. He flys fine but doe not have the finer movements for release and right now today I put him in the main loft and he became "King of the Bath Tub" and won't let no pigeon take a bath in the beginning but now it is a different story--their are 12 of them in the bath tub right now and he soon will be evicted. I released him to the loft on this bright sunny beautiful day and especially bath day so that he knows where there is water for this day until he figures out how to use the two water containers inside the loft. He is being chased by three birds last time I looked but no bird is hurting him. He would not take a bath inside my house but he sure took one outside today...I will keep him..... I have a new thread starting and the computer man will be here at 12.00 so we will see how this picture threads does and this is a brand new experience for me....Willie has a good home and seems to be happy and healthy today and he has gained a lot of weight--he is no longer thin and looks beautiful....This saga ends.........c.hert


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## doveone52 (Aug 3, 2009)

"King of the bath tub"! I like that. Looking forward to seeing pics of sweet Willie!


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## c.hert (Jan 15, 2010)

After getting those pictures yesterday for the loft a picture of Willie will be awhile but they will be coming. I was trying to learn so much information from my computer friend and I could not remember what we did: Down load: up load: right key: left Key: save it: memory: transfer: etc. etc. cell phones: digital cameras: disks: quick shot cameras:etc etc....under 500 kb....etc mb this and that....I had a Irish coffee....But I will get more pictures after I get a camera and that Cannnon camera is looking pretty good...c.hert


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