# Alea, Ali, and Bert (Continued)



## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

This is the continuation of the previous threads about Alea and her lovely babies, Ali and Bert.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Alea,

That is such great news about Ali. Sounds like he or (she ) is well on the way to recovery. ..and off the Baytril for two days, great!

Your long term love and dedication has really paid off. 

Keep up the good work!

Treesa


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Okay, I have what may be a rather odd question... 
Last night I let the birds out to play for about 5 hours. In this span of time, I noticed that my still largely unfeathered Ali has a protrusion just above where his tail feathers are starting to come in. Is this an abnormality or could it be the sex organ? 
I guess I had just assumed that the sex organs would be on the underside of the body, but I am starting to rethink that.
In the next few hours, Bert laid down in my lap for a rest and was preening her self. After a while, she allowed me to sort of rub/scratch her back (and soon was in eyes-closed ecstasy), but I noticed something similar above her tail feathers. Of course, she was not willing to let me really get a good look, but I think "hers" was much smaller. Anyway, was wondering if any of you could clear this up for me. 
Ali is resisting my feeding him more and more. He is picking some seed, but not nearly enough to sustain him. Usually after the first 10 cc syringe, he doesn't resist the second, so I guess it's okay.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

What you are seeing and feeling is the uropygial gland (oil gland). Here is some further information ab out it:
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There are small wax-secreting glands in the external wall of the auditory meatus, small mucus-secreting vent glands and a large uropygial gland. The uropygial gland is a bilobed holocrine gland. It is found dorsally at the base of the tail. The two lobes are separated by a septum that is continuous with the capsule of the gland. Each gland is lined with numerous secretory alveoli that open into a central cavity. The shape of the uropygial gland varies between species and families of birds. It has been used as a taxonomic marker. In a few birds the gland is absent, notably, the Ostrich (Struthio camelus), also Amazon parrots and their close relatives, the Pionus parrots. The tip of the uropygial gland (papilla) has two openings, one for each side of the gland, often surrounded by a tuft of down feathers. The secretory alveoli are supplied with oil formed by modified epidermal cells that do not become keratinised. Each epidermal cell has a prominent Golgi apparatus (generally associated with lipogenesis) and as it matures the cell becomes filled with lipid droplets. Finally the lipids coalesce to form a globule and cytolysis causes the cell to dissolve completely and release its products into the duct. When massaged, a small amount of greasy secretion exudes from the tip of the gland. It is held on the tip of the gland by the tuft of feathers. The bird wipes its beak on the papilla and spreads the resulting secretion over its body. 


There are many species variations in the nature of the sebum and there are also differences between sebum formed by the skin and sebum from the uropygial gland. One of the main functions of the sebum is waterproofing the feathers and skin. The uropygial gland is most developed in waterbirds. A pelican&#146;s uropygial gland can be the size of a hen&#146;s egg. Sebum from the uropygial gland seems to be more water repellent in aquatic birds. All birds need some degree of waterproofing but only 7% of sebum on a pigeon is derived from the uropygial gland. The sebum is also required to keep the plumage smooth and supple, vital for maintaining full aerobatic performance. It also enhances feather colour, has antibacterial and antifungal properties, and contains vitamin D precursors. 


In some birds the secretion is coloured, the Great Hornbill (Buceros bicornis) has a yellow secretion that helps to colour its beak. In other birds (Hoopoes and Musk Ducks) the secretion is odorous. Green Woodhoopoes (Phoeniculus purpureus) use a foul smelling secretion from their preen gland as a predator deterrent. In this species, the oil gland has no feathers on the papilla, the birds sleep in a communal nest hole and if threatened they all turn round so that their preen glands face the entrance and the gland is stimulated to emit secretions.
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Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Terry!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw that in Piglet once and wondered what it was...sexual or infection...it is a great relief to know, because I didn't dare ask!









Cynthia


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Cool! Very interesting... Thanks, Terry!

Just wanted to add that I have ordered a pigeon mix from Jedd's, and ask you all if you have any more reccommendations (other than a multivtamin, greens, and probiotics) for my birds.... especially Ali. I may be going overboard, but I want to do whatever I can to help him catch up on growth. Like I mentioned before, his weight is good, but his feet are much smaller than Berts. Any reccommendations for foods that help promote bone/feather growth?


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Perhaps the addition of some oyster shell grit if the babies don't already have it. It should be offered in a separate container from the food and water. It will have additional calcium as well as trace minerals that are good for the birds.

Some time outside in the sunshine will also be helpful to aid in assimilating the vitamins and other nutrients they are consuming. Since it's been so warm lately, just be sure they don't get overheated.

Terry


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Your on your way. Ocasionally some fresh pressed garlic in the water will supply a natural antibiotic action which will not kill the pro-biotics. 

Also, I am experimenting with an idea I heard here; many have good results using Apple Cider vinegar in the water. I've heard varying doses from a high of 1 TBSP/gallon daily to a low of 1 TSP/gallon twice a week. Best to use a raw unfiltered vinegar not created with heat such as Bragg's. It should be cloudy.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Alea,

You mentioned that Ali's feet are much smaller than Bert's. In a discussion I read about trying to determine the sex of young birds, it was mentioned that the feet of female birds are generally smaller than those of male birds. It will be interesting to see if Ali turns out to be a she!

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Terri B


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi!

There is always the exception.

When I was hand raising Skye and Sonic, she was the big one with the big feet and larger, Skye has smaller feet. We call him "Tiny Toes" infact, among other terms od endearment! 

Also I have another female who is bigger than her mate and has unusual large feet! We call her "Jethriene" the pigeon version (The old Beveraly Hillbillies show) LOL

Treesa


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Terry,

Super information about the oil gland! Thanks!

You mentioned: "There are small wax-secreting glands in the external wall of the auditory meatus..." Auditory is ear, so does that mean that pigeons have a wax secreting gland by their ears? I've noticed the birds rubbing the side of their head on their back, especially when they are bathing so that would make sense.

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Terri B


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Terri .. you got it .. yes there are glands there. I am just whammied with new incoming birds tonight so will be back with you tomorrow.

Terry


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## alea3 (Mar 15, 2004)

Hello all. For some reason the page would not open for me today at work, so I am at a friends house again, creating a new profile because I don't remember my password. 
Anyway:
They do have oyster shell grit. I see Bert eating it but have never seen Ali.
Time outside is hard, because I live in an apartment, and the cage is just too huge to bring outside. My kitchen is pretty sunny, still, I would like to bring them somewhere safe and just let them out, but I don't trust Bert to come back to me. She has been very hand-shy lately, landing only on my head when she wants interaction.
This brings me to my next question... (please don't bite my head off) Would it be terribly cruel if I clipped her wings a bit? I hate to even ask,... I know she has fun flying around the house... It's just really hard getting her back in the cage when I have to go out, etc. etc. In an act of desperation I nailed a sheet up over the kitchen doorway to trap her in the kitchen and cut down on her escape routes. She eventually gets tired of me chasing her and flies back into the cage, but not before I'm tired too! Just a thought. I miss her being a baby and chasing ME around. 
As for the size of the feet... 
I am thoroughly exasperated.. I think Bert was trying to mount Ali the other day. He was chasing him anyway. Also, he has started cooing quite a bit. (You'll notice I am using he/she completely at random now,...) Like I said, I give up! (haha)
Seriously though, my main reason for posting tonight, (in additon to responding to your responses) is that Bert has diarrhea. I can tell s/he doesn't have much control over bowel movement and sometimes it's just a bit of water. How concerned should I be about this? Is there anything I can do? Thanks everyone!! Back in the morning...
Alea


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Pigeons normally show little interest in grit until about nine months (maybe more experienced people can quantify that differently). They will just peck at it once in a while until then. For minerals you've got Prime, greens and you can grind a pinch of grit with a pliers and put it in the syringe mix.

I have bsically the same situation except my birds live in my room. My "solutions" are not palatable to everyone but...to get them outside I would put them in a standard pet carrier and take them for rides in the car. They love to go for a drive and are never bored. They like to watch city life, bird life or the sunset. They will quickly learn how to balance on the headrests. Leave the windows open about 2 inches. You may see them open there wings for a sun bath.

Regarding wing clipping: it's a bummer. However, Dr. Speer is a top avian vet and in his book "Birds for Dummies" he says 'Before you set out on a dreadful guilt trip, understand one Very Important Point. It is perfectly normal to feel ambivalent about wing-clipping. After all, if you could fly, you wouldn't want someone taking away your ability to soar, would you? Certainly not, but to allow your bird flight is to put his life at risk." And he is mainly talking about the risks inside the home--stoves, fans, toilet bowls left open, etc.!! Sure, he's talking about parrots but if you have a house pet you could reason the same.

I think you have a problem because you're set up is more suited to a caged pet then an adult pigeon. 

If you go the other way--to fly out instead, you have to consider if your physical plant will allow a safe entrance and egress, if the immediate surroundings have a lot of trees or other structure (bad), if there are a lot of hawks around, if there are pigeons they can learn from, etc. This is so dangerous but it's ideal if you can pull it off. It's easier when you have birds that instruct the newbies.

Bert is probably a boy. You can actually tell by the look in their eyes--the expression not how the eyes look.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

I suspect the diarrhea is just a passing thing but it's good you noticed and will be keeping an eye out.

As to wing clipping .. only you can decide, but I wouldn't feel guilty or badly for longer than a few seconds to assure that my pet bird wouldn't be taking off for potentially dangerous places whether that's outside or inside.

If you are going to be up this way, please give me a call or e-mail me. I'll be happy to give you a good sized cage for outside time for Bert and Ali .. big enough for them to be comfortable but still easy to move back and forth if you need to.

Terry


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks to you both! You have made me feel much better,... although I will still have to do some soul searching before I make a decision on the wing-clipping. 
Ali is resisting being fed more and more,.. and literally overnight he seemed to sprout and even dusting of grey feathers on his head. I guess he thinks he's all grown up, but my gut tells me otherwise. He is definitely not eating nearly enough seed to sustain himself,... even when I strectch out the feedings, or feed less than normal. (I only know this because he was so resistant the past 2 mornings in a row, I couldn't barely get 10 cc. in him before leaving for work. He didn't just resist opening his beak, he also would hardly swallow at all. Made quite a mess. But the past 2 days I also made up for it by feeding 25-30 cc. at lunch or right after work.)
I hope he catches up quick!
Oh! And yes, I think I forgot to mention that they do have oyster shell grit. Never saw Ali eating eating it, but Bert picks at it quite a bit. (And they are only 3 months old, roughly)
Alea


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

Regarding the wing clipping: they will molt in the fall and replace those feathers. You could clip now, get them both mature and healthy this summer and let them have their feathers back in the fall. This doesn't solve the ultimate problem but it might buy you time.


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Hi dano7,... you know, you read my mind!! I was just going to ask when and if the feathers would be replaced. Good to know!
Thanks! One more thing though,... I have been talking about this with my fellow animal lovers, some of whom have told me to be very careful as I might cause bleeding? Any guidelines on how much to clip if I do indeed clip. 

I also have a couple of questions on my recovering Ali....
First, are paratyphoid and salmonella the same thing? I have recently heard the 2 terms used interchangeably. And if the answer is yes, could I contract it? I just remember being a child and retrieving eggs from the hen house. We were always admonished to wash hands well because of salmonella. 
Question 2; Now that my bird is obviously doing well, can I assume that the virus has run it's course and is gone, or should I assume he still carries the virus, and is merely cured of the secondary infections he had? Thank you. 
Alea



[This message has been edited by alea (edited March 18, 2004).]


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

According to Dr. Speer: "We suggest you observe your veterinarian or bird groomer (yeah, right!) handling the wing clip a few times before you try it yourself.

A proper wing trim allows a bird to exercise her wing flapping muscles,the pectorals, which is especially important in young, developing birds. A good trim also gives a bird some coasting ability, so she doesn't fall like a rock when attempting to fly. Birds with no flight ability can injure themselves badly, from beak-tip and chest damage to tail-base, cloacal/vent, and wing tip damage. Excessively short wing trims can also create psychological issues in your pet--it's scary to think you will fall like a rock! Propperly trimmed, your bird should have no ability to gain altitude, but she should be able to fly horizonatally to a safe, easy landing.

With your bird restrained in a towel, pull the wing out and look at the primary flight feathers, the last ten--and longest--feathers on the wing. Using a sharp scissors, take the ends off the outer 6 or 7, as indicated by the dotted line in the figure (figure shows a straight cut of the tips of the last seven, longest, flight feathers; the cut is 2/3rds of the whole feather--2/3rds gone 1/3rd remains). Don't get carried away--you can always trim the feathers more, but you can't put feathers back on! As long as you are not cutting blood or pin feathers, you're not hurting your bird."

I would be comfortable doing this myself. I would cut more than half of those seven primaries and see how she flies and adjust as neccessary.


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Alea,

Way to go Ali, growing head feathers!!! What a trooper he is and what a dedicated caregiver you are!

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Terri B


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks dano7 and Terri B!
Anyone have any clues of my paratyphoid virus question? This is something I've been wondering about quite a bit!
Alea


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Alea,

Yes, paratyphoid and salmonellosis are the same. It is a bacterial disease, thus the lenghty treatment with Baytril. I'm reasonably certain that little Ali is free of it at this point. Yes, you could have been infected from handling the birds and their poopy papers, but I know you used good sense and were careful about hygiene.

Terry


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

According to what I have read there are about 200 strains of salmonellosis that pigeons can carry but only two or so can be transmitted to man (and I must emphasise that this is only what I have read!), so normal hygiene precautions would be more than sufficient to avoid catching it.

Cynthia


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

If you got it you would probably not even notice it while your immuno system dealt with it--it's an overblown concern if you are healthy.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Thanks Dano. The anti pigeon brigade really have done a good job with their "Pigeons spread diseases" propaganda. Even though I know better, whenever I get ill I wonder if the illness is pigeon related!

I had to go to the doctor about something relatively minor and deliberately refrained from mentioning pigeons. To my horror she suddenly asked :"Do you keep pigeons?"...for about 3 seconds I was convinced that my symptoms exactly matched a pigeon related disease that I had never heard of. I was literally paralysed with shock until she said, "Don't worry, you haaven't been pooped on...I just noticed you are wearing an I LOVE PIGEONS watch!"

Cynthia


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Oh my gosh,... that is too much. I was pretty sure I had nothing to worry about, just wanted to ask.
Got some pics to show you all the progress Ali has made over the past couple of weeks. I will be sending them to Terry shortly.
He is almost adult-bird size and I'm thinking about trying to wean him soon. He doesn't eat any of the seed I leave for him as far as I can tell, but maybe he would if he actually got hungry. 
Alea


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## alea (Jan 20, 2004)

Something else...
Does anyone else out there have "aggressive" pigeons? (haha) Bert's behavior has changed pretty dramatically in the past couple of weeks. First he got hand "shy". Then, he would make little cooing/ grunting noises and bite my hand! At first I thought this was affectionate behavior. He chases Ali around the cage doing the same thing, so I thought maybe it was sexual behavior or something. He also turns in circles and grunts/coos when I get home from work to let him out. Again, I thought this was a happy noise,.. but I think he is really trying to hurt me! I think he's doing it because I'm in his space, or he doesn't want to be bothered?? I dunno. At any rate, I bought this huge cage for them, and am afraid to leave them in there together for very long now. I'm afraid Bert will harass little Ali to death if I do. I have to do something soon though. Ali jump/flaps out of his foot high box easily now!!
Alea


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Hi Trees,

Bert is playing "spider creatures" with you.
http://www.urbanwildlifesociety.org/pigeons/BerniePijStory.html 

Cynthia


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## dano7 (Feb 10, 2004)

I haven't had nearly the experience of the veterans here but I have seen this exact story. Yogi started displaying and being territorial with his brother who learned to give him his space. Yogi will peck the hell out of me unless he needs my suppport or he is scared, or eating pieces of carrots and spinach out of my hand. He has to show everyone who is boss and when I get new birds he chases the males without mercy. Females either run away or mate with him!! If males stand their ground he fights them til the end. Yogi is 300 grams and he chases my 500 gram+ king pigeon Snow Bird around the room. Snow Bird will defend three places and he throws Yogi out with brute strength but Yogi still maintains his dominance elsewhere. He is also the most energetic and curious and smart pigeon I have seen so I forgive him. He was an orphan baby and he has survived dozens of hawk strikes and I thought maybe these experiences hardened him. He is a year old and maybe the forum can tell us if these guys ever chill out. Once Ali has his full size and strength he will not be in serious danger but he will be picked on and, if so, he will enjoy life in a bigger space to get Burt off his case.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I love Bernie's story.
That's quiet a story. He is so special.
Reti

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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Hi Alea and Dano7,

It takes time, but they can get better if you work at it. Walter is 725 grams of attitudinal king pigeon and was always trying to bite. Initially, we thought that was normal for pigeons and couldn't understand all these people who said pigeons don't bite. ;-)

After being given two very sweet Old German Owls, we changed our expectations. We have been working for the past 6 months to balance respect and trust and have seen a big improvement. We have been teaching him to step up on our hand for some millet seed to focus on reinforcing good behavior. Good luck!

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Terri B


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