# High protein diet



## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Beanie, the injured pigeon is not eating well since last week. Over the last two and a half weeks, she has lost quite a bit of weight. 

The vet attributed that it could be some damage to her nerves that cause her to lose weight. She recommended that I forced feed her with feline a/d diet (high in protein and easily digestable). Beanie is currently on vitamins and mung beans only. According to the vet, her poop is ok which indicates there is no problem with her digestive system.

Does any one has experience feeding cat food to pigeons? Is there any other stuff that pigeons can take to increase their protein intake?

Any advice much appreciated. 

Thanks!
Sue


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sue,


It is not clear in your mentions, whether the Bird is eating on it's own still, or, if you are having to resort to feeding it by some means or method.

I remember something about this! Forgive me, I am a mite dim some days, so...

Bring us up to speed?

What was it's injury? How old is it?

Was eating lots of Mung Beans, but was not interested in other Seeds?

I would not think it is any lack of protean which is vexing them, but rather, something else...

What Grains and Seeds beside Mung have you been able to get and try out?

Have you considered to get some tests to determine if the Bird may have Worms or Tape-Worms or other endo-parasites of some kind?

How is the Bird's morale generally?

Anise Seeds sometimes perk them up when disinclined to eat as they should...

Cat Food ( I assume you mean the Kibble, the 'dry' food, ) would be little avail I think, and oweing to it's rancidity, and would compromise Vitamins being absorbed. Cat Food is not very good usually, if convenient in a pinch sometimes for people who do not have better things on hand. It is a 'dead' food really, compared to Seeds which are a 'live' food in their way.

Sometimes, 'Worms' aside, Birds will go through a sort of slump for some reason, missing a mate, who knows...usually does not last long, where they do not have much appetite.

Get some good Barley, Oat Groats, White Safflower, even some of those 'Goji-Berries', dried ones or dry them for a few days...

Do 'Seed-Pops' if you have to, maybe 50 mL of Seeds ( which is why the larger Seeds are best for this! ) a-day...maybe more if the Bird will accomidate more. Little forays of say twenty Seeds or so, thirty, one at a time, then do again in a while...like that.

Make sure the Water you are offering is good, meaning very good, meaning not 'tap' Water but some good local spring Water or Purified Water of some kind.

Others here will be along to add more...


Good luck...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Oops.. hope the following helps ...

It is not clear in your mentions, whether the Bird is eating on it's own still, or, if you are having to resort to feeding it by some means or method.
She's still eating on her own but not alot.

What was it's injury? How old is it?
Her leg has shown some improvement as in she can now stand for a while and wobble around. No improvement to the wing and the vet confirmed last evening that she could never fly again.

Was eating lots of Mung Beans, but was not interested in other Seeds?
Yes, she's the one who only eats mung beans and nothing else.

What Grains and Seeds beside Mung have you been able to get and try out?
No success with pigeon mix, corn, peas, bread, grit or nuts.

Have you considered to get some tests to determine if the Bird may have Worms or Tape-Worms or other endo-parasites of some kind?
Beanie has been given some medication for parasites (can't recall the name now) so I hope worms or whatever has been taken care of.

How is the Bird's morale generally?
Basically she's still pretty alert, exercise her good wing once in a while, shows alot of interest when she sits in my hand by the window and of cos, slap and peck at my hand when I approach her. 

Cat Food ( I assume you mean the Kibble, the 'dry' food, ) would be little avail I think, and oweing to it's rancidity, and would compromise Vitamins being absorbed. Cat Food is not very good usually, if convenient in a pinch sometimes for people who do not have better things on hand. It is a 'dead' food really, compared to Seeds which are a 'live' food in their way.
The vet recommended that I add some warm water to the kitty wet food for Beanie. She cautioned us that cat food is oily and I'm not to feed too much. Hence my query if any one in this forum has any experience with cat food for pigeons.

Sometimes, 'Worms' aside, Birds will go through a sort of slump for some reason, missing a mate, who knows...usually does not last long, where they do not have much appetite.
Possibly, she's missing life outside. 

Get some good Barley, Oat Groats, White Safflower, even some of those 'Goji-Berries', dried ones or dry them for a few days...
Guess I'll keep on trying with some other grains, etc and hope for the best.

Thanks!
Sue


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sue,


Seed-Pops have been my resort when a recovering Bird has a weak appetite...sometimes have to do that for a couple weeks.

Medications will throw their appetites off sometimes, varies with the Bird...

Cat Food will not have the nutrition or the viable proteans that good Seeds will...it is a common recommendation if naive maybe. 

All the 'dry' Cat food pretty much, at best, is rancid animal fats and 'rendered' slime and powder made from dead animal shelter animals and the likes for the 'protean' content, ( bad for Pigeons) and preservatives and rancid stale old ground grains, mostly the cheapest or bottom of the barrel Corn and Soy Beans...not very good overall...bad for Cats, for that matter, bad for any living thing to eat, but people seem to like their seeming convenience.

Sounds to me like some time and gentleness and patience is what the Bird needs. This is not unusual, she got hurt bad and it will take a while variously for her to spring back all the way as for appetite and morale and adjustment and so on.

So, if it was me, I'd do the Seed-Pops and lots of 'em...wrap her in a small Towell to hold her more snug, gently with practive, learn to open her Beak, and...'pop' a Seed down there past the midway point, useing the tip of your finger if need be to push it in there far enough, and the barbs of her Tounge then will catch it and she will swallow...

If you can master it, a suitable diameter Catheter, on a larger Syringe, will let you feed her directly into her Crop, which will allow quite nutritious, if 'thin' ( I call 'em ) 'Soups', made of fresh ground Seeds and other things to be some of her food. In some ways, under the circumstances, this would maybe be ideal for most of her Food, and the Seed-Pops as a secondary intake.

Have you ever done this proceedure?

Can your Vet show you how to do it?

I'd be happy to run you through the recipes for Soups that I use.

The Catheter can be say as a No. 4 or 5 maybe, of the French System, a common enough item amongst Medical and Vetinary practioners, and they cost very little...one only uses a few inches of one on the Syringe.

I have had to do this ( and thank goodness I not that long ago, finally, learned how to do so!) for recalsitrant eaters who were getting well from some injury or illness...it has saved them sometimes, that, and Seed-Pops. 

Then, after a while, they are back to pecking splendidly, and eating well again on their own.

I remember now the image you posted of your Bird...she looked very sweet and pretty...!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the quick response.

Agree with you on the cat food bit and that's why I'm quite sceptical feeding Beanie with this although the one that I should be using is a premium brand of cat food.

Could you please run thru' the Soups receipes? 

Is the way to feeding her the soups similiar to that when I get her the neuron medication? To do this, I open her beak and syringe the fluid down her throat.

She has gone thru' so much and I really want to help her to re-gain her health. 

Sue


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Sue, 


I was always way afraid to syringe anything down their thoats, although of course, some people do so with good results.

I myself was terrified of the liquid going down the wrong 'pipe' and into their air Sacs where they would promptly go into convulsions and die.

What I learned to do, is to gently slide a lubricated Catheter, into their Right ( my Left, if facing them) side of their throat, where the opening is to their esophagus, and thus to their Crop...so, the Catheter end is in their Crop actually, and so the liquid Food then goes directly into their Crop without any possibility of them or me getting any of it into their other openings in their throat.

I try and estimate the length the Catheter has to be, so that when inserted, I can tell when it is almost to the bottom, but not to the bottom, of their Crop. How they stretch their necks when one does this, throws it all off of course, but in essence, the Catheter needs to be long-enough, and not too long as to be pressing itself against their Crop's bottom of low sides anyway.

The 'Soups' I would think of making now, for something like this, would be...

(And you can get some of these ijngredients if you wanted, likely over the internet if need be with shipping say of 'Global Priority' class for a flat five or eight dollars and a five day transit or so...)

"LeFabers" Baby Bird Powder, or 'Lorribush" Baby Pigeon and Dove powder...K-T is my least favorite...but it will do if the others are too hard to get.

I mix dry, in a regular Kitchen Blender, a cup or so of various wholesome Seeds...and blend them into a fine powder. Lately I have added some Fennel Seeds also. The powder thus made, I will use for a few days, keeping it cool and dry untill use.

For use through a Catheter, I would find some small sieve or screen, and screen the ground grains-Seeds I made in the Kitchen Blender to only retain the finest of the powder I made...and experiment a little adding Water to some small batches to see if I got it screened fine enough but not more than that, to pass through, as a Gravy-liquid, through the Catheter. I 'think' a No. 5 will be alright for an adult Pigeon...but, double check with your own or other's judgement please since I am not sure right now on that size.

To the grain powder I make in the Blender, I add maybe 30 percent LeFabers or Lorribush powder...and maybe 5 percent or so 'Chlorella' or other nice 'green' powder ( Health Food Store) and maybe a little dried, few square inches of a sheet, of Sea Weed, like for Sushi Rolls...and presently I would also add about a dozen or fourteen or so of the little Goji Berries ( so it say works out to about four or five a-day for the Bird) when blending-grinding the Seeds in the blender so they get made into powder also...

To this, a dab of Bird Vitamines maybe...and, good quality Water to make a medium thin gravy or Soup. 

No matter how served, it should be served "Tepid" of course...!

I keep the batch I am useing at the moment, I keep it warm in a pan of hot water...whether for the hollow of a Nipple for Babys, or, for the Catheter and Syringe. The Catheter and Syringe of course are easy to hold under hot running water to make them 'wrist' warm or so, not more, certainly, but not less by much either. But it is best if what one draws into them is also warm as well.

Draw it into the Syringe with the short length of soft Catheter (lubed so it slides in nice, with a little Olive Oil say) and if the liquid draws 'in' it will also express 'out' decently...

Practice in an empty dish and so on to learn to squeeze it out of the Syringe-Catheter in a steady even way...

Likely, around 20-25 mL would be fine to give...twice-a-day...(and still do Seed-pops of course as well off and on, ) and allow say ten seconds to give that amount, or a littll less even...it must not be too rapid of course, but it need not be prolongued either for the Bird's comfort to be respected...one must err on not filling their Crop too full with liquidy things...too, so I tend to be conservative maybe on the quantity.

Should make for lots of good, nice, firm, well formed, happy poops...and a weight-gaining, feeling-better, soon to be wanting to eat on her own, of Bird.

I think some of mine got into wanting to eat on their own finally, not because they did not like my food, but because they really did not like the Catheter getting slid down there twice-a-day...so, they figured they may as well get back into some serious pecking again...( Lol...)  

Nighty-night...

Time for all good little Beaks here-abouts, and for yours truely, to hit the hay...


Phil
Las Vegas


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

HI Phil,

Thanks for the tips!

Hopefully Beanie will absorb whatever that's prepared for her.

Cheers,
Suzanna


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Sue,

Do you ever take her for walks outside? I've got several pigeons that can't fly and I sometimes take them out in the yard to walk around and peck on the ground a bit. Sometimes, I take them for walks around the neighborhood (I hold 'em or they stand on my hand). It just gets them interested in life a little bit more. They a lot better if they have another bird for company as well. All of the handicapped birds in my loft have taken mates and, would you believe, it's always a non-handicapped bird? I don't have any handicapped pigeons that are married to other handicapped pigeons.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Nice mention Pidgey...!

I think Suzanna's Bird has a hurt Leg which is mending at it's own pace, but your idea of taking them outside is excellent, and I agree it is a very good idea.

They do benifit from seeing the sky and foliage and so on, feeling the breeze and having Sunshine on them. even putting their Cage outside is a good thing if they are not able to walk or for whatever reason.

This is a good thing to remember to do with our Convelesents.

And in itself it will contribute to inspire them to re-discover their appetites...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## SueC (Jun 9, 2005)

Hi Pidgey & Phil,

I am thinking along the line of getting Beanie more interested in life by letting her sit on my hand by the window for a couple of minutes in the evening for the past 2 days (can't do so during the day as I'm at work). But come this weekend, I'll get her to the compound and spend a longer time there. BTW, she shows interests in whatever she sees outside the window. So hopefully such exercise helps. I feel sad for her in that she can never go out on her own and fly again.

The only bird I have at home is a crow and I don't think Beanie appreciate BoBo (the crow) for company. My cat likes to sunbathe with her but I don't think she likes that too.

Wish us lots of luck!

Suzanna


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