# Variations in feral flocks.



## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

I have noticed that feral flocks, in different locations, show quite different physical builds and coloring.
In Dayton, in most flocks, 1 out of every 6 ferals is some color besides blue bar or blue check. Red checks and ash grizzles are the most common other colors.
One flock had a lot of Modena blood. The ferals were heavilly built and many came in Modena colors such as Gazzi, Schietti, Magnani and Harlequin.
That flock now seems fairly typical, except for some birds with broader than normal chests.
I have seen one flock of ferals that was almost entirely ash reds.
I have seen lots of ferals with crests, grouse legs and small muffs.
Some flocks have a lot of birds with opal bronzing.
Some flocks appear to be comprised of pure homing pigeons.
What genetic backgrounds do you see in flocks in your area?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Yes, they are so beautiful, aren't they? I love the sound of your mixtures, some with crests too!

I live in Australia, so we mostly get variations of rock pigeons, mixed with King Pigeon and white fancy breeds.

I love the King Pigeon blends, for their beautiful natures as well as looks.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

I dont notice many colour mutations in feral flocks anymore. i remember as a kid i used to watch them at paridise point, and at australia fair and there were always some really cool looking birds, but these days all i seem to see is the natural colouration. i wonder what changed. ??


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

In the Ohio area, they are colored as you would expect. Maybe an odd one here and there, but mostly blue checks.

I would expect that the odd colored ones would be the ones targeted more often by the predator birds, and thus they would not "take over" colonies.

I liken it to this: If a German Shepherd got dumped at Yellowstone Park, it might survive, but probably not, and if it did, surely Shepherds would not change the coloration and form of the local wolf populations.

But a black and tan wolf just might show up now and then, in the pups.


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

The current theoory, on the color black in wolves, is that it originated in the domestic dog a long time ago and entered the wolf population when feral dogs bred with wolves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_wolf_(animal)
"Genetic research from the Stanford University School of Medicine and the University of California, Los Angeles revealed that wolves with black pelts owe their distinctive coloration to a mutation which occurred through wolf-dog hybridisation."


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Well, I understand your point. However, I find it hard to not classify feral pigeons as "wild animals". Even if they are not native to this area, they are wild. Just like starlings.

But the point is not worth debating because the "wild" pigeon populations here in the U.S., are not going to eventually become majority reds, whites or tumblers. Just won't happen. Odd balls do show up now and then, but nature keeps them in check.

Funny thing about wolves and dogs. The creator of the German Shepherd Dog, stated in his book, that early on, he put some wolf blood in the making of this breed. Yet, almost every German Shepherd Dog enthusiats will steadfastly deny that the wolf was used in the breed.

I believe it is because they are afraid the breed will be banned from certain locals, or insurance rates will be high for owners of them. (Will the public start blaming pigeon keepers for the flying rats crapping on their window sills and vehicles?)

But to my way of thinking. It was about a hundred years ago and that wolf blood is diluted to almost nothing. All domestic dogs most likely came from the wolf anyway. The consensus is that coyotes and foxes did not contribute much, if anything, to the domestic dog population. Most believe the CoyDogs (crosses of coyotes and domestic dogs) is a myth and that none exist. Although wolf x dog hybrids are certainly all over the place.

But, I digress.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Granted. However, how long does it take. How many generations does it take, before a "feral" becomes part of the natural wildlife population for an area? How long before an introduced species becomes a wild natural species?

Did all of the animals come from the Garden of Eden, and thus, all animals are ferals everywhere else? If pigeons are a part of the natural "landscape" in my area for two centuries, are they still not native to my area? How do we know there were not pigeons here before man? Was the Passenger Pigeon native to this country? If so, could "some" of the so-called feral pigeons that abound, be from the evolution of the Passenger Pigeon? Should we send all of these "illegal alien" pigeons back to where they came from?

Inquiring minds want to know.  (just having fun)


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Granted. However, how long does it take. How many generations does it take, before a "feral" becomes part of the natural wildlife population for an area? How long before an introduced species becomes a wild natural species?


Its seems tragic to me that if the `feral' species in question is of the human variety, then they are entitled to greater rights than the native species who once inhabited the area. They drive many native species to extinction, destroy vast areas of habitat for themselves and all other life, on a scale that no other species is capable of doing. All this, they are considered to be the owners of that land, just because they are there.

But if the `feral' in question is of the Pigeon species, they are robbed of their rights and regarded as a pest. In my country they are denied medical care and legal protection from cruelty, and are widely persecuted.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Noisy_minor said:


> I dont notice many colour mutations in feral flocks anymore. i remember as a kid i used to watch them at paridise point, and at australia fair and there were always some really cool looking birds, but these days all i seem to see is the natural colouration. i wonder what changed. ??


That's interesting Phil. I wonder why? I notice that the coastal regions of the Gold Coast are teaming with many species of large raptors; I wonder if they like to pick off the coloured ones first?

In my area in brissy, the local raptors are sparrow hawks mostly, and occasional Goshawks. They will eat sick pigeons, but prefer the smaller doves.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

The majority of ferals I've seen in the UK are usually sort of mottled grey/charcoal/black.
There are other colours, but hardly ever see them till you move further into the country away from the cities. 
Theres a lot of old stone & iron railway arch bridges in Edinburgh which because of their design is a haven for ferals (sometimes well over 100 nesting in one bridge, Its so populated that the council have erected corrugated Iron shelves at an angle to stop the poops and young from falling onto the traffic & public passing underneath, but this actually make more space for more to nest lol), dont think I've ever seen coloured or white ones in these areas.
Maybe they're just so inbreeding that colours have been lost through generations.
Theres a small flock of about 20 that comes round our neighborhood regularly, only one is pure white and the others are majoritably the grey/charcoal/black but they are obviously related. A few have the odd single White Flight or tail feather, and theres one that is nearly all charcoal but has a band of white right down its back, but then goes into black at the edge of its tail. When its wings are closed & its pecking on the ground it looks like its got an advert for Citroen on its back lol.
Havent seen any tan or red ones around for years though.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

hmmm...so, what you are saying is that we who are not Native Americans, are ferals here in North America. Especially those of us in Detroit, Washington D.C. and New York.  HaHaHaHaHa

I never considered myself a feral. Interesting.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

conditionfreak said:


> Granted. However, how long does it take. How many generations does it take, before a "feral" becomes part of the natural wildlife population for an area? How long before an introduced species becomes a wild natural species?


something interesting on that subject, we as humans classify native animals as (the ones that evolved naturally here, or were here before we got here) but what happens when our native wildlife evolves and adapts, to rely on the introduced species??? 

feral pigeons dont pose any threat to native wildlife, however they have helped our natives such as the perigrane falcon adapt to city life by providing a food source. Isnt that a good thing on an environmental note????

Then if you look at our red bellied black snakes, when the cane toad was introduced there numbers dropped drastically, as there natural diet is frogs. however a small number were feeding on rats, (also introduced) and now there numbers have began to rise again as they now feed on rats intead of frogs. 

I understand alot of feral animals have a negitive impact on our native wildlife. However some have a positive impact, as our native creatures have a hard time adjusting to our ever growing citys and constant land clearing. The ferals move into the citys which then helps some of our natives adjust to urban living.

We as humans have destroyed so much of the planet so no animal is really a true native because the habitat we have created is not a native one.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

True. I never belived in what i just wrote untill i had snakes and began doing research about them. I think that if an animal can avoid extinction by feeding or co existing with a "feral" animal, then the feral animal should be classified as a 21st century native. 

The balance is long gone, we have created an environment that our wildlife cannot keep up with. we should be more concerned with attempting to help animals adapt to what we have done then wiping out ferals. sorry if i went off topic. 

I wonder why when i was a kid there were alot more colour mutations in the feral flocks than today. i wonder if what i was seeing was someones flock they turned loose and they just lived out there lives in the parks for a few years and the original colouration took back over.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Noisy_minor said:


> True. I never belived in what i just wrote untill i had snakes and began doing research about them. I think that if an animal can avoid extinction by feeding or co existing with a "feral" animal, then the feral animal should be classified as a 21st century native.
> 
> The balance is long gone, we have created an environment that our wildlife cannot keep up with. we should be more concerned with attempting to help animals adapt to what we have done then wiping out ferals. sorry if i went off topic.


Thanks for the info, Phil; and its amazing to hear about how the red bellied black snakes avoided extinction because of rats. 

I also read that in the North of Australia the Torressian crows there have learned to survive by living off the large parasites on the feral Asian cattle populations, called `Banteng'. 






> I wonder why when i was a kid there were alot more colour mutations in the feral flocks than today. i wonder if what i was seeing was someones flock they turned loose and they just lived out there lives in the parks for a few years and the original colouration took back over.


That makes sense to me, Phil. The local feral in my area had wild King pigeons living amongst them; I once saw 3 at one time in my yard, and one stayed around for several months for extra pampering, and became like my wild pet. But I think they may have all passed away now, as I haven't seen one for years.

Fours years ago, many of the babies were born almost completely white, with purple, bronze and green patches on them. But now the squabs look more like rock pigeons, with only some of them showing the King pigeon features, such white primary feathers, or white spots on them. Occasional a baby is born completely white or black.


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## PigeonX (Oct 17, 2010)

What you are saying is turely an intresting topic to me. I like pigeons because their are many morphs and colors. Our feral population in wisconsin and I am sure most of the world mostly consist of blue bars and blue checks. I have however noticed that in the city; around the train tracks there are many color morphs compared to out in the country areas. I am amazed to hear that you have feral flocks that consit of homers, because i've only seen a couple of homers that flew around and they are almost never with any ferals. I've seen escaped homers come into my area in groups and singly but i dont ever see any feral pigeons flying around with homers. This is a really intresing topic.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2010)

A bunch of the birds here in georgia are blue bar blue checks red checks grizzles white splashes ect.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Doesn't really pertain to this topic, as it is not pigeons. But about six years ago, I owned three African Geese and three Chinese geese. The Chinese Geese were solid white and the African Geese were brown colored. They all six had those big knots of bone on their foreheads.

I had bought them for one dollar each from someone who was going to cull them, because they were "tired" of them, and had them in a large pen with no swimming water.

I tried keeping them in a pen with a little kids swimming pool but I could tell they were just not happy.

So I took them to a lake which is near my home. I turned them loose there.

The next year we went back and five of them were co-mingling with the wild Canada Geese that are always there. I don't know what happened to the sixth one.

The following year, not only were the five still there, but there were young gooslings that were half white and half Canada Geese colored. None had knots on their heads though. Couldn't tell if any young were crosses of the Africans and Canada geese, as the colorations were similar.

Now there are several adults that are half Chinese Geese and Canada Geese there. My pets mated with wild geese and are loving it there.

I hope I don't get into trouble for doing it. Probably some kind of law against it, I am sure.

But they sure appear to be happy there.  We go a couple of times a summer just to see them. We have to take our binoculars as the lake is large and sometimes they are on the opposit side, where they nest away from humans. It does my heart good to see them enjoying swimming around. I know they suck at flying, so I can only assume they stay there for the winters. Sounds tough, but they are still kicking.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi conditionfreak,


I like the Goose story.


Once they were at the Lake, it was all out of your Hands and up to them.

Nature took her course, one might say...and it worked out well for everyone!


Very nice...



Escaped, young, skinny, delicate looking 'Wedding Doves' sometimes end up standing out past the far fringe of my feral grazing Flock, looking totally lost and timid and having no idea what to do.


Soon, within a few days, they are pecking shoulder-to-shoulder with the ferals.


Couple years later, if n ot six months later, they are full bodied, savvy, and every inch a smart, rugged, elegent, alert, tuned-in, serious, 'wild' Pigeon...eventually showing up with a Mate, and soon after that, with that wet mouth corner look of having been feeding Babys.


Makes me happy to see them do well, learn the Ropes, and succeed as Wild Birds, for all their long history of being bred far from any Wilds.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

About seven years ago, someone brought me a little two week old 'Peeper' who had chemical burns, Canker and some contusions.

All went well, and she turned out to be a splendid check Hen, with short Feathered Feet, and was released.

Have seen her on and off since amid my feral Flock.


A few months after her, I found a youn adult feral who had lost an eye, so I got him rounded up, had him here for a while, let him go, and, he had medium length Feathered Feet.

Around that time, I found a 'peeper' under an overpass, on the curb....raised and released him, and he had Feathered Feet.


Within a couple years, my feral Flock had a lot of Feathered feet, and still does!

Some of them, the Feathers are about three inches long.


Prior to 'Baby Daisy' and her Feathered Feets, I had not seen any ferals here who had them.


The one eye Pigeon I had released, I got back when he showed up hurt from a flying mishap...had him a while, released him...and a year later or so, he shows up again, with a broken Wing, and, when the Wing mended it ended up frozen, so, he lives here, and has for several years now.

Now and then he and his mate make some Babys, and, the Babys always have Feathered Feet...they grow up, and get released, and their Babys then tend to have Feathered Feets also.


It all just keeps changing as it goes!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Those are nice stories, thank you both!

I loved the story of the released geese; sounds like it was the right thing to do, whatever the laws might be. It made me smile hearing how happy they were with the wild crew, when set free.

pdpbison, I feel the same way when I see relatives of the King Pigeon who was part of our flock once. I loved him; he was huge, pure white with a leg band, and I named him `Pet'. He used to sit right outside my back door each morning, waiting for me. He taught me all his favourite foods and how he would like his water served, lol. Best Pigeon ever. He disappeared once and we never saw him again, but I never stop thinking of him. 

Now when we see his progeny, we think of Pet and it makes us smile, Even if he's gone, his influence still lives on. King Pig's have a special way about them. Some his descendants look like rock pigeons, but act just like King pigeons....they never spook when you're near; they just expect you to cuddle them or something, and love them. (which we do)


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

here in town there is a flock of ferals and alot of them are white or almost all white.. they use this one overpass where a stop light is almost under it and you can see all of them nesting and pecking on the ground.. they look like they should be in someones loft...so pretty, and there are just a few checks and BB's.... Im just guessing they have alot of white homer in this flock... there is a pastor that lives in town and he has white homers...bet some of them are from his flock..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Bella_F said:


> That's interesting Phil. I wonder why? I notice that the coastal regions of the Gold Coast are teaming with many species of large raptors; I wonder if they like to pick off the coloured ones first?
> 
> In my area in brissy, the local raptors are sparrow hawks mostly, and occasional Goshawks. They will eat sick pigeons, but prefer the smaller doves.



They usually will pick off the ones that stand out more. They focus on one bird in a group, and go after it. If the bird stands out amongst the rest, it would be easier to focus on.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Boy! I didn't know any of this history about who was here when. Just assumed the "native americans" were here first, as that is what I learned. I'm going to have to read more about all this. Interesting.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> "The identity of the first Americans is an emotive issue for American Indians, who believe their ancestors were the first to inhabit the Americas.
> 
> Controversy erupted after skeletal remains were found in Kennewick, Washington, in 1996. This skeleton, estimated to be 9,000 years old, had a long cranium and narrow face—features typical of people from Europe, the Near East or India—rather than the wide cheekbones and rounder skull of an American Indian.
> 
> ...


Well thanks for the info. spiritwings. Appreciate it. Obviously I need to read more.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You two should take this private. You have both taken this thread WAY off track, and to argue back and forth about it is not going to go anywhere. Can't you just agree to disagree? Otherwise feelings are just going to be hurt, and people offended.


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## Keith C. (Jan 25, 2005)

Variations in feral flocks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have noticed that feral flocks, in different locations, show quite different physical builds and coloring.
In Dayton, in most flocks, 1 out of every 6 ferals is some color besides blue bar or blue check. Red checks and ash grizzles are the most common other colors.
One flock had a lot of Modena blood. The ferals were heavilly built and many came in Modena colors such as Gazzi, Schietti, Magnani and Harlequin.
That flock now seems fairly typical, except for some birds with broader than normal chests.
I have seen one flock of ferals that was almost entirely ash reds.
I have seen lots of ferals with crests, grouse legs and small muffs.
Some flocks have a lot of birds with opal bronzing.
Some flocks appear to be comprised of pure homing pigeons.
What genetic backgrounds do you see in flocks in your area?


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

Jay3 said:


> You two should take this private. You have both taken this thread WAY off track, and to argue back and forth about it is not going to go anywhere. Can't you just agree to disagree? Otherwise feelings are just going to be hurt, and people offended.


Yes It should stay on subject. I did not bring the off subject matter up But did feed into to its mislead idea. NOW on subject Fact is in the pigeon world All pigeons still have there link to the wild state And only through cultivation by man do they remain different in the body types. But as cultivation is discarded they will return to the wild state. Tghat is why you see that stae in the freal flocks Sure color verys But that to reverts over to the blue As time goes. Take a fantail even jacobin apearance is far removed But cross over from natureal selection They revert back very fast. The cultivated state does not survive in the wild It allways mixes in.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Keith C. said:


> Variations in feral flocks.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



Hi Keith,


I have observed the same things you mention, including seeing quite a few Eurasian Collare Doves grazing with the wild/feral Pigeons in vacant Lots here.


I used to have a pair of non-releaseable Pigeons, who were Blue Checks of typical coloring, but, each of them had a barely noticible hint of bronze on a few primary Feathers.


These two made quite a few Babys over the years, and every time, both Babys were a sort of Good Year Red Rubber 'Red'.


As those Babys grew up and were released, they matriculated to a flock about a mile from here, and, when I drive by that area, I see a lot of 'red' Pigeons!



So, sometimes it does not seem to take much for the genetics of a flock to shift and then to remain that way however long.


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

spirit wings said:


> I know! I feel so much guilt for being born a white person... now Im offended...(half joking)


LOL LOL LOL


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Your foray is too ugly and baiting for me to deal with maniac.


I don't have any interest in that kind of emotion, or in responding to that kind of smearing name calling gambit.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Your foray is too ugly and baiting for me to deal with maniac.
> 
> 
> I don't have any interest in that kind of emotion, or in responding to that kind of smearing name calling gambit.


 Then lets delete our posts that led to this as you can believe your idea But saying it brings others to speak aginst your words i will delete my posts now Hope you follow the truth and delete yours.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

re lee said:


> Then lets delete our posts that led to this as you can believe your idea But saying it brings others to speak aginst your words i will delete my posts now Hope you follow the truth and delete yours.




I was addressing a subject impartially, you two are making personal insults and smears.



Kinda destroys any possibility of discussion, doesn't it?



I guess in your minds, that means you WIN!!!! The only way you know how.



Lets get back to Pigeons please.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

If you think I am attacking you personally that is too bad, I am not but, I cannot in good conscience allow crap such as you posted to go unanswered.

Hitler managed to incite almost the whole German population into believing that Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals were less than human and the cause of everything bad in Germany.
Stalin ran a similar campaign in communist Russia.
Blacks were considered to be a lower form of human life.
Asians were sneaky, sly bastards, not to be trusted.
Indians and Aborigines lazy savages.


There can be no winners in dis-information campaigns. When people repeat or say things without taking the time to find out if what they are saying is true it can become very dangerous. Millions of people have lost their lives, their homelands and their cultures because of people like you.

I apologize for taking this thread off course. This is not a place to be discussing intolerance or racism but I felt as I have always felt, that I must speak out when I see such blatant ignorance that denigrates fellow human beings.

For the record I do not believe that pdpbison is a racist or intolerant of other people, only that he is truly misinformed.


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## Noisy_minor (Jun 20, 2008)

So like pigeons, there cool and can fly and stuff. like cause there birds with wings. and this sites really cool, cause it has a, wait wat was it again. oh yes the *private message *function thats totally awsome. 

This thread is so far off topic its insane. please take it privatly or just stop. theres millions of people in the world that all think for themselves and believe in very different things. just take comfort in knowing that you believe in something, because you believe it is right and not worry about what every other tom dick and harry think.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Will you two please consider that poster of this thread, instead of making it all about you. NO ONE CARES! So no one needs to hear the arguments on either side. Start your own thread, or PM each other. Have a little consideration for others. You have both said how you felt, and this argument could go on forever. You are both being very selfish. You both have opinions, but you are not going to agree, so let it go already. Phil should know better, And re lee, as a moderator, you should set an example, regardless of your feelings.


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## conditionfreak (Jan 11, 2008)

Yea, and lay off of us ******* right wingers.

Y'all.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

The posts that were made towards negitive native american words have been deleted to keep this thread going forward So lets see it stay on track


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Thank you.


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## maniac (Sep 27, 2009)

*NO ONE CARES!*

Really !!

You may not because you are complacent and equally as intolerant. Proof ? *NO ONE CARES*

You are a twit.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

maniac said:


> *NO ONE CARES!*
> 
> Really !!
> 
> ...


And you are a moron. Let it go. Stop derailing the posters thread.


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## RodSD (Oct 24, 2008)

Those feral observations can be easily explained if you believe that those particular groups/population are inbreed individuals. Obviously they should show similarities because they have very similar genes. Some of the ferals I have observed contained those dirty genes and obviously they almost all look a like as a group. Here in San Diego I seldom see feral white pigeons though. My take is that they get taken by hawks/falcons especially people here breed falcons.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

As for me, I am not especially satisfied with the designation of 'feral' for the Pigeons one sees in urban, rural or even quite remote locations.


The more I have brooded on this, the more I would find that these are simply Wild Pigeons, which have as the occasional member, a Pigeon who had been at one time, usually only for some short time, in someone's Loft.



If we are to presume that the only Pigeons - dash - "European Rock Doves" originally occuring in North America, were ones who were kept as Homers or Messenger Pigeons or Carrier Pigeons, or maybe Pets, or for food/Squabs/Eggs, by Colonists, starting in possibly the 1600s, which Pigeons were turned loose or escaped at times, then the designation of 'feral' I suppose would have applied for a time, but, for how long should it be retained?


When Government programs employing Avian specialists and Naturalists, intervene and captive-mate captured Adults to then hand raise Baby Birds of 'endangered' Species, or even to let their captive parents raise them in captivity, and then turn them loose in an effort to aid dwindling or periled 'wild' populations, are those Birds then technically 'feral'?


I would think they indeed must be.


Why not then insist that over time, that some of that 'endangered' Species is then 'feral', since, some of their members were Birds kept by People, bred or raised by people, and, turned loose?


I guess all in all, the designations of feral, native, and so on do not to me seem to have enough justification to mean as much as they are supposed to mean under various laws.


These are all Birds, who happened to have managed to get on in their present environments, or not, and so what if their original members, or, some of their members, had at one time, for a little while, been in a Cage, Loft or other enclose?


Species have always found new locations and opportunities where they might thrive or manage well.

If humans, as an incidental, happen to be the means used by an Avian Species to matriculate to new localles...so what?

Does that really, positively catagorize them as somehow less worthy or less valid? Or less entitled to survive or enjoy whatever Habitat they have managed to make-do in?


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

Origin: ML feralis < L fera, wild animal < ferus, fierce from Latin fera, "a wild beast" 

while peoples interpretation of Feral pertain to various species, one would hardly call a feral pigeon fierce, however it is generaly not tame.

The dictionary definition of a feral animal is one which has escaped from a domestic or captive status and is living more or less as a wild animal.

The zoological interpretation of feral is a domesticated animal which has been returned or escaped to its wild natural habitat (natural not nessesarily pertaining to its original country)
Zoologists generally exclude from the ‘feral’ category animals which were genuinely wild before they escaped from captivity: neither lions escaped from a zoo nor the sea eagles recently re-introduced into the UK are regarded as 'feral'. 

I think the term "feral" linked to pigeons is very ambiguous. As pdpbison says, how long should the term apply. 
When "feral" pigeons surviving in the wild breed, their offspring are born not in domestication, but in the "wild" therefore they are technically not "feral" by definition of the word.

The Scottish WILDCAT, is not considered "feral", nor is the Australian DINGO, however both can be traced back to originating from domesticated "feral" animals.


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## re lee (Jan 4, 2003)

feral pigeon a late name. As I was growing up they were called barn pigeons. common pigeons. But they relate to the rock dove the wild type. No matter any pigeon that has been set free or escaped to the wild will in time revert back to the wilds state. There off spring mix with the wild type and withoutr cultivation They start looking like the wild type agin. Sure different colors appear. But that to changes in time / More blues and blue check start to show up. Small flocks hare and there may have other color patterens. BUT give nature the time and they revert to more normal color. We can allways find a certion amount that shows cultivated traits a crest feathered feet and such But that will disappear to in time. Feral to me just means the wild state of pigeons. And the many thousands that have mixed with them over the many years still have reverted back that. Nature takes back what is changed and changes it back to what can survive Or it will die and never be seen. Man just hides what is there but it returns when man does not control it.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

feral, wild, whatever!... they are out there living and the colors or indicative of domesitcation, esp the white, splash, and fancy colors I see on the overpass pigeons living in town here.. they must have a source of home raised breeds of pigeons to keep that going.... anyone of them would look right at home in a backyard loft, even the BB's and checks... they are unique in that way and I find it very nice to see.


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## g0ldenb0y55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Pretty soon we'll be picking from our local feral flocks for our next Champion Ace birds! That would be a site to see....LOL


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## Bird PI (Dec 8, 2011)

I have noticed that the red bar coloration is very rare in feral pigeons here.


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## kamz (Jan 23, 2010)

Just wanted to add, that I have noticed where conditions are ideal that you get a much greater variety of coloration in feral flocks. There Is one feral flock at a park near me In Richmond, victoria that has access to constant running fresh water that has great variation in colors. 

I am not too familiar with pigeon colorations, but can say with some confidence that I have seen Red bars, reds, blue bars, blue checkers, all whites, And pied whites at this pal that has great food and water supplies. Does make me wonder if a few breeders let their duds go there 

Unsurprisingly the closer you go to Melbourne city, the less colors there are - there is both a greater number of pigeons, and more avian predators. 




In


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## Sevenof14 (Dec 4, 2010)

As an avid pigeon lover and observer, I wanted to add my 2 cents.... I watch over the flocks at Washington Square park in Manhattan, and I've noticed a growing number of "palimino" or white pigeons with bursts of color this year. The majority of the flocks are blue and red bar, with some checkered (with the exception of my 2 boys, who are red), but there are more and more of the color bursts. I think a lot of this has to do with lost racers and show pigeons joining the flock, as I've seen a few kings around with bands.. Would it be logical to assume that the color variations are based on "new blood" joining the flocks? I've always been told that the older a flock is, the less variation as the revert back to looking more like rock doves...


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## Sevenof14 (Dec 4, 2010)

conditionfreak said:


> Granted. However, how long does it take. How many generations does it take, before a "feral" becomes part of the natural wildlife population for an area? How long before an introduced species becomes a wild natural species?


I think when we're dealing with pigeons, the simple fact that there are enough people like us out there who care and feed them, that they will never truly go back to being "wild". With pigeons (like dogs and cats), we're simply dealing with domesticated animals who have radically changed over the course of a couple thousand years of controlled breeding by humans.

Feral pigeons, unlike most "wild" birds, are very quick to adapt to a life of domestic "bliss" due to selective breeding of the strong and friendly ones over a multitude of generations, as well as the current environment of the flock. The fact that they remain so close to the human population would logically keep them pretty domesticated.

To use an example I get a kick out of; while my flocks in Washington Square park not only come when called (or follow the regulars around at "lunchtime"), and understand "seed", it's taken me about 2 months to "teach" the flock over by Madison Square garden that seed is edible. That flock has become so accustomed to hot dog buns and pretzels they didn't understand any other food... BUT... they still understand that the "big, dumb apes" are the source, and will come around pretty quickly.

I'd be curious to hear from someone who has access to observe pigeon flocks removed from a human population to see if they have truly reverted to "wild"..


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Sevenof14 said:


> As an avid pigeon lover and observer, I wanted to add my 2 cents.... I watch over the flocks at Washington Square park in Manhattan, and I've noticed a growing number of "palimino" or white pigeons with bursts of color this year. The majority of the flocks are blue and red bar, with some checkered (with the exception of my 2 boys, who are red), but there are more and more of the color bursts.* I think a lot of this has to do with lost racers and show pigeons joining the flock, as I've seen a few kings around with bands.. Would it be logical to assume that the color variations are based on "new blood" joining the flocks? *I've always been told that the older a flock is, the less variation as the revert back to looking more like rock doves...



I agree. It's the color of the pigeons that are joining the flocks and breeding that will determine the color variations. And I also believe that those colors get watered down with the young breeding with the others in the flock.


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## switchbackmat69 (Mar 31, 2012)

for three years I have raised feral pigeons. last year all the squabs turned out with bronze bars. ( theres pics of this in my albums on my profile) this year the same ferals are pruducing almoste a 60% hatch rate of birds that are normal bb's and black check with white flights and splashing all over there body ( no pics of that yet but I will post some soon). the olny thing I changed in the mix was that I started buying a pigeon mix apose to using grain from the farm. I'm sure the envirment changed too. ok so if I know this it comes to conclution that the birds have these genetics in them from the start. there for it can come out of them squabs more or less depending on conditions they have been faced with. what will come out next? I don't know, but them two pair of fferrals is special to me no matter the case. even more so the one pair that I have flew 100 plus miles over and over. the point is just because you have a ferral bird don't mean it can't race and possibly win. and they are not all the same color geneticaly. I would have to say yes you can get any color out of a ferral pigeon. I would also have to say yes they can home to verrying extents.


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