# Young pigeon with salmonella, chloramphenicol not working



## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I found sick pigeon 6 days ago, he wasn't able to fly, I presumed because he was too young. Five days ago I started him on Chloramphenicol after I saw he wasn't digesting food very well. He started having salmonella-green poop and he isn't getting better even after 5 days of Chloramohenicol (100mg/kg QID), but he isn't getting worse either. What should I do now? Last year I had so many pigeons with salmonella, they all had very resistant strain of salmonella and the only antibotic that worked was Chloramphenicol. It is one of the best antibiotics there is! 
I know that it is bacteriostatic, maybe that's why it needs more time for it to work and maybe it'a also because the pigeon is around 3 weeks old and his immune system is not developed??

Any thoughts??


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I would give Baytril for Salmonellosis.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Baytril was always my first choice, but that was before I lost many pigeons due to resistance to Baytril! I saved so many lives with Chloramphenicol, but I really don't know what to do in this situation! Should I continue with Chloramphenicol, I would say that the pigeon is digesting the formula better, he even digested some seeds he picked yesterday, but today he hasn't eaten anything, but he digested maybe 20ml of the formula. 
Sholud I maybe try with Gentamicin or Amikacin??


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Sholud I maybe try with Gentamicin or Amikacin??


Eternal, both Gentamicin and Amikacin are aminoglycosides and this class of antibiotics are used with great caution because they can be ototoxic and nephrotoxic. Since you have only strong suspicions of salmonella, and no confirmed diagnosis through culture and sensitivity testing, I myself, would not use these antibiotics, especially on such a young bird, and both of these medicines are parenteral only, that is, given through injection.

I would advise you to try Trimethoprim/Sulfa, at 50mg/kg q12h, and see if this little guy responds (if you so some reading you will see that TMP-SMX is a drug of choice for salmonella), and although you mention you have had poor response in the past, the Baytril John mentions, would be another medicine to consider as well.

Good luck with this little guy,

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So you definitely think 5 days is too long for an antibiotic to "cure" and I shouldn't way any more and that I should change antibiotic??


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal, 

Hey well done with picking up this little one and trying to save its little life. I'm glad that you managed to stabilise her, and it sounds like she has some hope, since you've got her this far. 

I agree with Dobato's advice reagrding the Sulfa-type of antibiotics. The symptoms you describe can also indicate ecoli and/or coccidia, and the Sulfa drugs will take care of both, as well as other common illnesses in pigeons. I would switch antibiotics immediately and take careful note of any improvement or deterioration.

Just wondering, have you ruled out coccidia? And if you don't mind me asking, if so, based on what observations? This partly because I can't always tell the difference, as both ailments cause the bird to get very ill and very light, and so i treat for both most of the time.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. Eternal, I usually see some improvement within days if I'm with the right antibiotic. Sometimes the change takes only hours.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Eternal,
> 
> Just wondering, have you ruled out coccidia? And if you don't mind me asking, if so, based on what observations? This partly because I can't always tell the difference, as both ailments cause the bird to get very ill and very light, and so i treat for both most of the time.


It's the poop, it changes to salmonella green color, even when a bird is on the formula. When bird is on the formula, the poop should be yellow, but if salmonella is present, the poop is actually really green even on the formula.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> PS. Eternal, I usually see some improvement within days if I'm with the right antibiotic. Sometimes the change takes only hours.


I actually thought I saw some improvement few days ago because he started to digest food better and even picked some seeds, and now - really nothing! 

I had a case before when chloramphenicol needed maybe 5-6 days to work and that's why I continued with it and because I know it's an excellent antibiotic with which I had good experience. 

I don't think Trimepoprim/S gonna work, I read Salmonella is very resistant to it. Maybe Baytril, but I even doubt that to be honest. I really don't remember a single bird I cured with Baytril.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

eternal said:


> I actually thought I saw some improvement few days ago because he started to digest food better and even picked some seeds, and now - really nothing!
> 
> I had a case before when chloramphenicol needed maybe 5-6 days to work and that's why I continued with it and because I know it's an excellent antibiotic with which I had good experience.
> 
> I don't think Trimepoprim/S gonna work, I read Salmonella is very resistant to it. Maybe Baytril, but I even doubt that to be honest. I really don't remember a single bird I cured with Baytril.


Many times in the past I would be treating a bird for what I 'thought' was Salmonella. They would start to respond and then stop improving. Each time I did a culture & sensitivity on the fecal. It turned out to be e-coli and coccidia.
I didn't have any TMP/SMX, so I used Baytril and Albon together, it worked.
I would try what Dobato suggests.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

There is a lot information out there about the efficacy of TMP-SMX in treating salmonella, with some referencing it as a choice in Chloramphenicol resistant strains, plus if this bird has concomitant illnesses, for example coccidiosis and salmonella, you will get the coverage needed to treat both infections.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4452759

Karyn


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## John_D (Jan 24, 2002)

I think one should also be careful about making assumptions about what the bird has from just the look of the poops. Green droppings can mean a load of things, such as E.coli as Msfreebird mentions. Sure, if one guesses - even with some past experiences - one may be right, and on balance probably _will_ be right sometimes, but getting 4 or 5 days of poops together and getting then tested for Salmonella is the best way (though I appreciate those facilities may not be available everywhere), since Salmonella is shed in the poops intermittently.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I guess I don't know what "salmonella-green" is...

For the record, it's virtually impossible to know what's wrong with them from the poop, even with a microscope. It's ALWAYS a guess, even when it's an educated one. That applies to vets and doctors as well. You can have an abundance of a bacterial species that has some very nasty close relatives but is not in itself a particularly virulent form. There are tons of E. coli that aren't a problem and a (relative) few horrible ones, and that principle pretty much goes for a bunch of different bacterial species. So... the attending vet/doctor/rehabber is often compelled to apply a lot of Sherlock Holmes-kind of problem solving in such cases. And deal with some percentage of failure on a rather regular basis.

In any case, I haven't picked up enough actual symptoms out of the thread so far to make any suggestions worth mentioning.

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I think you are wrong, a lot can be told just from the poop. 

I had so many pigeons with salmonella and it wasn't "a guess" not only because culture showed it (I didn't do that every time), but also because many of them had or developed neurological symptoms. 

Salmonella-green is very intense green, not like olive green but more like this green http://media.bigoo.ws/content/background/color_green/color_green_60.jpg

I have a great deal of experience with Salmonella! I had mice on my balcony while renovating it and they infected my pigeons! They were all sick, all with the same symptoms, all with Salmonella that was resistant to every antibiotic there is expect Chloramphenicol (the antibiogram didn't show that, they didn't have chloramphenicol in the laboratory, but they only responded to Chloramph.).

I had a pigeon named Gallina, I found her on the ground without tail, and she was with me for maybe 2-3 weeks before getting sick. She had that salomonella green poop from the very beginning but she was fine, eating well, etc. and then one day, she just stopped eating, and it was one antibiotic after another, Baytril, Ampicillin, T/S, furazolidone, etc. nothing was working, she developed neurological symptoms, had neurological attacks, it was horrible seeing her like that, and I found about Chloramphenicol, she fully recovered and was released. Few days after Chloramphenicol her poop return to normal olive green, brown. 

When pigeon has E. coli or coccidia, dropping aren't that color of green and the poop is different not only in color, but also in form. Coccidiosis doesn't produce green poop.

And just so you know, when pigeon have Salmonella, his poop is always green, even when he is on the formula. When the pigeon is on the formula, the poop should be yellow, but with salmonella is always green!!!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The bile salts are green, mostly that shade. I've seen plenty of different "greens" over the years, from starvation green to various shades of biliverdinuria green. Once upon a time, I tried to illustrate one of those last and so linked a webpage that my computer screen displayed as almost perfectly the correct color. Then I looked at it with a different computer with a different screen and it didn't look the same by a long shot. It was then that I began to realize some of the problems with trying to describe colors over the Internet. 

Salmonellosis can occur in many different tissues--it doesn't have to hit the GI, it doesn't have to be progressive. A nasty E. coli can do basically the same damage and cause the same symptoms. When a specific organ ends up being infected, we tend to see more specific symptoms but they don't always present the same way.

Yes, Chloramphenicol is a good antibiotic, which mostly fell into some disuse in The States due to the risks of a rare aplastic anemia that can occur from contact with it. I'm not saying anything whatsoever about your use of it--if it works, use it until it doesn't. All I'm saying is that there's a lot more actual doubt as to what's causal in cases like this than we'd all like to admit. Sure, we love feeling like we've got it figured out and are always making the correct decision about The Cure. In a lot of cases, our guesses are right and the treatments work. In a lot of other cases, our guesses aren't right, but the treatment still works. In several more, our guesses are wrong and the treatments don't work. It's always easier to rationalize those than to say "I was wrong".

Pidgey


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Theory is one thing, practice is another. Salmonella is located in the intestine and when it starts multiplying it can lead to enteritis, septicemia, twisted neck, loss of balance and other neurological symptoms (have you ever seen a pigeon when having this so called attack?). Pigeon can have Salmonella without being sick, but if he gets sick from Salmonella, the pigeon will definitely *die*, either from enteritis and dehydration, septicemia. I don't know what happens when pigeon starts having these attacks if he doesn't get right antibiotic, I don't think he can survive. 

I'm not rationalizing, I'm just talking from experience because I had a lot of experience with salmonella! A lot! I had pigeons not being able to fly, not being able to use one wing properly (it wasn't broken, hurt, or anything similar), at least dozen pigeons with these neurological symptoms and attacks, and I hope you'll understand that I'm not saying all this just like that and that I think I'm right about everything. I also had a parrot with E. coli, it wasn't anything like this, droppings were normal green, but really watery, with mucous. 

I would really like to find some scientific explanation for green poop in case of Salmonellosis, because, as I said before, pigeons had green poop even while they were on the formula, they weren't starving and still had green poop. And the poop returned to normal green while they were getting better on antibiotic. It isn't a coincidence, because the poop turned to "salmonella-green" in few hours (in most cases, while Gallina's was green from the first day, and got olive green after she got better on Chloramphenicol, she was fine and eating normally for 2-3 weeks while having salmonella-green poop, and she wasn't thin when I got her, on the contrary). As I was saying, their poop got "salmonella-green" even before they stopped eating, so it definitely wasn't because of starvation. Their poop got green and they stopped eating, that's what usually happened. There has to be some explanation for the poop getting green.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

I think everyone agrees that you're doing a great job and that your instincts are probably really excellent regarding Salmonella, based on your extensive experiences and observations. 


I should also mention, that you are very fortunate to have so many highly experienced rehabbers posting on this thread. I have learned a huge amount from these member specifically, and saved dozens of birds based on their advice and wisdom. So I do tend to take their opinions to heart, and I hope you won't dismiss what they say easily....not saying that you are, but when you're new here and you don't know anyone, its hard to know what advice to trust. I guess all I'm saying is you can trust these people, they are extremely experienced.

Anyway getting back to the topic,I think the jist of what everyone is tryng to say to you is that when you don't have actual tests done to rule out other possible problems, then being too specific with treatment can rob your poor bird of other medicine it may need. 

As a very typical example that I see regularly myself, say your sick bird shows very strong symptoms of Salmonella/enteritis/ecoli, but it also has coccidia and a viral infection, the symptoms of which are masked by the enteritis. If I treat exclusively for Salmonella, i might see some improvement fora little while, but meanwhile the coccidia continues to take down the bird and it eventually regresses. Or the secondary problem could be worms, or canker, or something else. This is why the broad spectrum antibiotics can be very helpful, unless of course you do have test results on hand to steer you towards a specific drug.

Anyway I'm sure you agree. And I'm sorry things there are a bit frustrating at the moment I hope your bird picks up soon.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella F, thank you and I am very grateful for their advice, they've helped me lot in the past.

The pigeon was doing ok till he vomited the formula and I noticed it smelled sour! I gave him Nystatin and metoclopramide, but I think I'll have to start with Fluconazole because he is obviously very sick and not strong enough to fight infection like some other pigeon. 

What do you think?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> Bella F, thank you and I am very grateful for their advice, they've helped me lot in the past.
> 
> The pigeon was doing ok till he vomited the formula and I noticed it smelled sour! I gave him Nystatin and metoclopramide, but I think I'll have to start with Fluconazole because he is obviously very sick and not strong enough to fight infection like some other pigeon.
> 
> What do you think?


Dear Eternal,

We're all just guessing at this point, unfortunately. From reading your posts, I am wondering myself if its possible that you have managed to get the infection, itself, healing nicely with the antibiotics you're using, and what you are seeing now is one ,or several, secondary issues? For example, if the bird has sour crop, then Nystatin is the right drug for it and I'd continue that for sure, instead of switching to Fluconzole. I don't know of any reason personally to switch anti-fungals and Nystatin is the more commonly used product for this. 

To be honest, if I was in your position, I would not hesitate to treat the bird for canker and coccidia. If one week went by without improvement, I'd be changing to another family of antibiotics too.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I think that Chloramphenicol and Metronidazole don't have any major interactions, I read something about neuropathy, but I gave him already Metronidazole for 2 days, should I give him again?

The pigeon isn't getting worse, I think that's good sign, he is digesting better, but with bacteriostatic antibiotics one's immune system should be in check to fight infection and that's why only bactericidal antibiotics are given to someone who is taking corticosteroids.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eternal,

Would you mind giving a run down of the meds you've used so far, and their durations? Also, Metronidazole is usually given for 7 days at least.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Only Chloramohenicol, in the beginning metoclopramide and cisapride, vitamins, and metronidazole for 2 days till I read about possible neuropathy and I stopped.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

And was the Nystatin used only one time?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I can buy Cevita's Chevi kok with amprolium http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chevi-kok.php. I hope that's ok to give him with Chloramphenicol. I wouldn't change antibiotic just yet, If I see disease progression, then definitely, but I'm not sure which antibiotic I would use, maybe amikacin. Aminoglycosides are potent bactericidal antibiotics, I was on gentamicin this winter, I had very severe viral + bacterial pneumonia that lasted for months, I was on every possible antibiotic and I'm not deaf and my kidneys are fine. Sometimes you have to choose between two evils.

As I said before, T/S and Baytril cured absolutely nothing, unfortunately. We obviously have some very resistant strains of bacteria.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> And was the Nystatin used only one time?


I gave it a couple of times, every time I saw the pigeons wasn't digesting normally.

I was also on Fluconazole for maybe 2 weeks, I had oral and throat candidiasis and Nystatin and Miconazole did absolutely nothing although I was taking them preventive, my tongue was white and I had terrible cough from the throat because of Candida, and 30 minutes after taking Fluconazole my tongue was red again. We have to consider always one's immune system, mine was severely compromised and I developed candidiasis because of antibiotics and only systemic fungal helped me to get rid of Candida.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him metronidazole today, it should be given once a day 200-250 mg/kg, right??
He is still on Chloramphenicol, tomorrow I'm going to buy Furazolidone and Chevi kok. I also gave him Nystatin.
Is metronidazole effective against Hexamitiasis or should I buy something else?


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## jeweel (Jul 4, 2011)

Metronidazole should be given 25-50 mg per pigeon per day BID.

Here is link for doses..http://www.homingpigeon.com/article/Dosage.html


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok, so it's basically 100-125mg/kg BID.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

I'm really happy to hear that you're treating for protozoan parasites with metronodazole. That's the medicine I'm using personally at the moment.

Unfortunately, I don't really know much about the Chevi kok with Amprolium. In some recent experiences I've had, two birds that I had, with green enteritis, were on Metronidazole & antibiotics & they threw up everything when I added Amprolium to their daily meds. So in order to use it, I give antibiotics/canker meds in the morning and antibiotics/amprolium at night. ie I don't mix the metronidazole with the amprolium. I've also used appertex , which is a one-off treatment for coccidia, and it seems mild on the bird. If the bird does have coccidia, the appertex caused improvement in the droppings within 24 hours.

I notice that a lot of more experienced rehabbers here will prefer to use a sulfa antibiotics instead of Amprolium or appertex. That used to confuse me, as sulfa meds do not `kill' coccidia, but rather interfere with its reproduction. But now that I've had a bit of experience with AMprolium, I can see how it could be too harsh for very sick birds, where you are using a shot -gun approach to healing them, and therefore a lot of different meds.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Should I buy Chevi kok or Sulphadimidine Sodium?? I read that Sulphadimidine shouldn't be administered to animals with impaired hepatic and renal function and anemic animals.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Should I buy Chevi kok or Sulphadimidine Sodium?? I read that Sulphadimidine shouldn't be administered to animals with impaired hepatic and renal function and anemic animals.


Eternal, Chevi kok is Sulphadimidine (with the inclusion of Amprolium).

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Are you sure that it contains Sulphadimidine beside Amprolium? Sulphadimidine isn't mentioned anywhere.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

eternal said:


> Are you sure that it contains Sulphadimidine beside Amprolium? Sulphadimidine isn't mentioned anywhere.


This place, that carries some Chevita products has it listed in Chevi kok (about 1/3 down the page):

http://dcppp.com/New Denicapm.html

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I bought Chevi kok, it doesn't have Sulphadimidine. It has in 6,5mg of powder Amproliumhydrochlorid 600mg, Chamomile extract 300 mg, Vitamin A 20 000 i.e., Vitamin K 4mg.

How much should I give to the bird, how many times a day? I would give it in syringe. 

I also bought Furazolidone, can I give it toghether with Chloramphenicol??


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I gave him around 15mg of amprolium because the dose of 600mg was meant for 40 pigeons. Now I have to see if I'm gonna stop with Chloramophenicol and start him on some other antibiotic. His poops isn't that color of green anymore, sometimes is even yellow, he seems alert and I don't think he is getting worse, he is maybe little better. 

This is what I found about Furazolidone and Chloramohenicol http://www.antibioticslist.com/nitrofurans.html


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

He isn't still eating, why is that?? Does a pigeon eat when he has canker, coccidia, etc.?


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, the dosing in pigeons for amprolium is 25mg/kg once a day for 3-5 days, if you did dose 15mg, this will be too much. I still think what you are trying to accomplish, treating for both coccidia and salmonella, could be accomplished using the Trimethoprim/Sulfa I suggested in my first post. I know you've mentioned that you feel Chloramphenicol is a much better choice, but the point of your post was, salmonella, "Chloramphenicol not working." In my second post I linked an article from the University of Chicago, Reviews of Infectious Diseases, suggesting that Trimethoprim/Sulfa would be a choice in Chloramphenicol resistant strains. It's hard to help in threads that you don't agree with the treatment regimen being instituted, so I have been mostly silent in this thread, as I don't have much to offer, unless I see something is obviously going to be of harm to this bird.

Karyn


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm really scared of what might happen if I stop with chloramphenicol and switch to other antibiotic. What if he gets worse?? And what if I start him again on Chloramphenicol and he doesn't get any better????

What do you thing about Furazolidone?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

What is the correct dosage for T/S? I have Bactrim.


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## jeweel (Jul 4, 2011)

25 - 30 mg per bird given orally in two equal doses 12 hours apart for 7-14 days.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Eternal, Furazolidone is used for the treatment of salmonella, but more when it is thought to be in the intestinal form, as Furazolidone is not well absorbed systemically and the catch with Furazolidone is that to reach the higher levels in the blood you would need to deal with a mixed salmonella infection, this is where it is not localized but spread throughout the body, the dose levels of this drug become toxic to a pigeon.

The suggested dosing for pigeons of TMP-SMX is 50mg/kg q12h. I understand your hesitation in changing meds and I made the suggestion on the premise that you said the Chloramphenicol was not working. The bird is with you so you will have to make the final decision, we can make suggestions for your options and offer ideas, but in the end I know the weight you feel in trying to determine what's the best course of action to take. You need to spend some time reading more on TMP-SMX. Here is one of many notes you will find in the literature on its usefulness:



> TMP-SMX has therapeutic advantages in treating MRSA infections, including endocarditis and meningitis.[16] It has also been used successfully for eradicating MRSA colonization.[17] TMP-SMX could be considered for treatment if other options, including vancomycin, chloramphenicol, and investigational agents, are exhausted.


Again, I suggested its use for two reasons, one you are right, the bird does have salmonella and Chloramphenicol is not working and two, you were wrong and it is something else, where TMP-SMX will treat a great deal of other types of infections, some very nasty ones, as well.

Karyn


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

Like Karyn has mentioned, the Bactrim and the metronidazole would be all the medicine your pigeon needs for now. You don't want to overload his little body with too many drugs, especially after a mild overdose on Amprolium. 

The Bactrim and metronidazole together will help with most illnesses responsible for the symptoms you described, without being too harsh on the little pigeon. If the bird was with me, I'd just give him 48 hours just on those two drugs, mixed with Nystatin once a day, and see how he goes. 

PS. Are his droppings still yellow? Yellow is the colour that scares me most in pigeon droppings because it can indicate liver/kidney damage and the body shutting down. Hopefully it was just temporary or caused by medicine though?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

No, there aren't yellow, they are light olive green, but keep in mind that he doesn't eat by himself and that he is on the formula. His dropping were yellow only first day after I fed him and after that they stared having intensive green color, now they don't have that shadow of green, it's more like this http://www.potclays.co.uk/products/images/FN-021gall1thumb.jpg

The colorless part is sometimes yellow but that only happens after vitamins and medicines. 
I keep him well hydrated because of Bactrim and Metronidazole. 

He isn't able to fly properly, he can't fly down, I've seen this kind of thing with birds having salmonella, they can't falp their wings enough time to land properly. He is now on T/S and metronidazole, and we'll see what will happen in the next two days.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Here you can find Chevita's treatment plan for application of chloramphenicol-N, you are supposed to make two-day pause after 5 days od chloramphenicol and after those two days you should treat again for 5 days, so I'm hoping that this means that the bacteria can't become resistant because of that two-day pause.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

That's really good going Eternal! I hope you are ok, you must feel a bit exhausted!

I'm glad you've switched meds, and i understand it was a hard decision to make. If it helps you to know, I use that combination of medicine for green enteritis almost all of the time here, which Dobato originally suggested to me last year. 

I now typically have 1-2 sick pigeons with me at any given time , though right now I have 6. I'd say that I pull about 70% of them through on the sulfa antibiotics/metronidazole. The rest either die almost right away because they were too far gone when I found them, or sometimes they have something different wrong with them, like crop stasis, candida, or just stuff I don't understand or know about. I am always learning, but the Sulfa antibiotics have been a really good workhorse for me, since I can't afford a vet for every bird I rescue.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella F, do you use cisapride and metoclopramide for crop stasis? Almost every bird I found had crop stasis and I couldn't have saved them without these meds. We also went a couple of times to the vet for the injection of metoclopramide if orally given metoclopramide took longer to work. Also, please get some Fluconazole for Candida, it can be life saver because it starts to work momentarily.
Do you know how to give them sub q fluids?? I think I wouldn't have saved many birds without that because once they get crop stasis they become also dehydrated and crop stasis becomes even worse. 
All these things can be very helpful, and maybe you should think about buying some chloramphenicol because, as I said before, I saved so many birds that would have died if it hadn't been for Chloramohenicol. 
I once had a pigeon who was nearly dead! He had opened beak because canker was in his palate and he couldn't close his beak, smelled terribly, he was having respiratory problems, was super thin, had salmonella on top of everything, he got better after few days although the canker took some time to fall off.

Is it normal for him to have a lot of water in the droppings, the green part is solid, but there is a lot of water, could this be from high water intake or should I fear kidney damage or PMV??


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

Thanks a lot for your helpful advice. I will try to get some of the meds for crop stasis that you've recommended; dealing with crop statis is still a very new area for me and being in Australia sometimes makes getting medicine difficult. 

I've only just recently added Nilstat to my medicine cupboard and its a big weight off, finally having a treatment for thrush. I use it whenever the birds are on antibiotics for a long time, like in your situation where the first course of antibiotics either didn't work, or only partially worked. I also have Fluconazole but haven't used it, so I do appreciate hearing your feedback about it.

Regarding the watery droppings, I had a really tough case of `wet, rice-water' droppings recently that took weeks to clear up. Long story short, the bird healed up nicely once I had put it on doxycycline, so it must have needed the tetracycline family of drugs for its illness. Before that I had tried Baytril and sulfa meds, but these didn't clear up his droppings. Now he's all good! 

BTW: The very best resource I found that explained all about watery droppings was the Vet, Colin walker's, website here

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Dropping_In_Race_Season.html


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Cisapride can't be used with Fluconazole and all other azole antifungals.

And please remember sub q fluids, there are very very important, but you should heat Ringer's solution first, I heat in sterile cup for urine which I put in hot water. 

I suppose it's a a good sign that the poop isn't intensive green anymore, which makes me wonder if Chloramphenicol was actually working but there was also some other disease, like canker or coccidia. I'm really at a loss now about what to do, should I maybe continue with Chloramohenicol or should I give it those two days rest?????


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi eternal,


I have the same feelings as you about it - that the Chloramphenicol probably did work for one the problems, or maybe even the main problem, which could have been salmonella like you guessed. And now you're seeing symptoms of the secondary illness. That happens a lot with my rescued pigeons too, and you can only go through the different treatments for secondary illness like canker, coccidia, and sometimes worms. I really think you'll save this bird though; you've brought it along this far and now its a just matter of clearing up this secondary problem.

PS. I'm not experienced with Chloramphenicol, so i don't really know what it can mix with without harming the bird. I do think you should stop it for a couple of days though, and give the bactrim (?) a chance. You'll know if the pigeon is deteriorating and you can always change back.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I've decided to continue with chloramphenicol but also with amprolium and metronidazole, and if he doesn't get better in few days I will switch to Bactrim. The pigeon is digesting normally, he even digested one corn seed he had for days (I didn't give him corn, he came with it, lol). He is very thin plus sometimes he poops and the poop remains hanging. I don't see any worms.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> I've decided to continue with chloramphenicol but also with amprolium and metronidazole, and if he doesn't get better in few days I will switch to Bactrim. The pigeon is digesting normally, he even digested one corn seed he had for days (I didn't give him corn, he came with it, lol). He is very thin plus sometimes he poops and the poop remains hanging. I don't see any worms.


Hey Eternal, So are you thinking that he has improved a little since adding the metronidazole and the Amprolium to his meds ? If so, that sounds pretty good, since you only just started him on those. You might be right about the antibiotic & you are probably doing the right thing changing only a few meds instead of everything at once. That way you can better monitor the effects of the new meds for canker and coccidia. I honestly don't know anything about Chloramphenicol so I can't comment....but it does sound good for salmonella.

Regarding worms, you probably wouldn't see worms in his droppings until they are dead. I think you need a microscope to detect worms properly, or have a vet do a fecal. But anyway, I usually leave worming to last, since I lost my very first rescue when a vet overdosed him on wormer 







.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Regarding worms, you probably wouldn't see worms in his droppings until they are dead. I think you need a microscope to detect worms properly, or have a vet do a fecal. But anyway, I usually leave worming to last, since I lost my very first rescue when a vet overdosed him on wormer .


I'm really sorry to hear about your first rescue. What did you use??
You can actually see the worms in the poop, alive and moving! First time I saw them didn't know what was that, there was poop and around the poop a circle. I looked closely and saw worms "stretching"! Other times I saw them only in the poop (not around it in a circle) also alive, you can see them even in the poop.

I use Fendendazole because I can't find here only Pyrantel and for the reasons I don't understand Ivermektin didn't kill worms in my rescues. Maybe because it was in powder?! Just to be clear, those were definitely round worms not tape worms, so it should have killed them. Fendendazole can really be dangerous, I read here on board that overdose happened to other members also.



Bella_F said:


> Hey Eternal, So are you thinking that he has improved a little since adding the metronidazole and the Amprolium to his meds ? If so, that sounds pretty good, since you only just started him on those. You might be right about the antibiotic & you are probably doing the right thing changing only a few meds instead of everything at once. That way you can better monitor the effects of the new meds for canker and coccidia. I honestly don't know anything about Chloramphenicol so I can't comment....but it does sound good for salmonella.


I was thinking the same thing. This way I will know what is working and what isn't.
The pigeon weighs only 190 grams!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi Eternal,

Where I live, the feral pigeons are smaller because of the climate, and I have had a few sick ones come in who were 190-210 grams, and who are just fine now & living free (well, they live in my yard now where to food is good, lol). Maybe where you live your pigeons are also small? I hope so anyway...either that or its just that it is young?

Regarding wormers, I took my first rescue to the Vet so I could get metronidazole. I had no other way to get it at the time. Actually Karyn (Dobato) had correctly advised me not to worm the bird yet, she was too weak, but the Vet insisted on it. The Vet gave it wormout gel when we were there, which has one ingredient in it related to Fendendazole, I think its called `oxiFendendazole'. 

Anyway, the poor pigeon became blocked up the next day, then started to have bright red blood in her droppings. She deteriorated rapidly and died. So since then I am very nervous about worming. I have used moxydectin, but I am nearly out so I will have to try a new wormer soon. I'm scared!

How is your pigeon today?.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Eternal,
> 
> Where I live, the feral pigeons are smaller because of the climate, and I have had a few sick ones come in who were 190-210 grams, and who are just fine now & living free (well, they live in my yard now where to food is good, lol). Maybe where you live your pigeons are also small? I hope so anyway...either that or its just that it is young?
> 
> ...


Just for future reference.....Pyrantil (strongid) is very gentle and effective, I often use it with birds I'm treating.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Msfreebird said:


> Just for future reference.....Pyrantil (strongid) is very gentle and effective, I often use it with birds I'm treating.


Hi Msfreebird,

Thanks SO much- I do remember hearing you mention this before, and I picked up a product ( for people ) from my chemist called `Anthel'. It is a jar of Pyrantel tablets, 250mg Pyrantel each. I haven't sat down and figured out the dose yet...do you know off the top of your head what the dosage should be?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Msfreebird,
> 
> Thanks SO much- I do remember hearing you mention this before, and I picked up a product ( for people ) from my chemist called `Anthel'. It is a jar of Pyrantel tablets, 250mg Pyrantel each. I haven't sat down and figured out the dose yet...do you know off the top of your head what the dosage should be?


The dosage is 20-25mg/kg. 

I'm wondering if we can use Bayer's Advocate on birds as spot-on treatment for internal parasites?? It is a combination of Imidacloprid and Moxidectin.

Fenbendazole can really cause bleeding in sensitive animals (in addition to leukopenia), I haven't had bad experience with it but next time I will be more cautious. Too bad I can't get Moxidectin and Pyrantel, I can get Pyrantel only in combination with Prasiquantel, 50 mg Prazquantel and 144 mg Pyrantel. But when I think about it, it might be even ok because the dosage for Praziquantel is 10-20 mg/kg. 

My pigeon is ok I guess, he is digesting normally, poop is great, well formed green-yellow part, he is still on the formula, but what worries me is his appetite! He doesn't eat anything yet!


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## Charis (Feb 11, 2007)

Eternal...Fenbendazole is toxic to pigeons and doves. I can remember several here loosing pigeons after giving them this wormer. Please read the following link.

http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetnorway/drnillsreither/anthelminiticdrugs.cfm


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> My pigeon is ok I guess, he is digesting normally, poop is great, well formed green-yellow part, he is still on the formula, but what worries me is his appetite! He doesn't eat anything yet!


That's great news, it sounds like you've got him on the right treatment. I wonder if the antibiotic causes a lot of nausea? Some of them can do that, but I don't know if that's the case with what you're using.. If it does cause nausea (or if the combination of drugs causes the nausea) then maybe you need to formula feed him for the duration of the treatment.?



eternal said:


> I'm wondering if we can use Bayer's Advocate on birds as spot-on treatment for internal parasites?? It is a combination of Imidacloprid and Moxidectin.
> 
> Fenbendazole can really cause bleeding in sensitive animals (in addition to leukopenia), I haven't had bad experience with it but next time I will be more cautious. Too bad I can't get Moxidectin and Pyrantel, I can get Pyrantel only in combination with Prasiquantel, 50 mg Prazquantel and 144 mg Pyrantel. But when I think about it, it might be even ok because the dosage for Praziquantel is 10-20 mg/kg


I have a wormer for birds here that is a combination Levamisole and Praziquantel. I would be happy to use the levamisole, but I don't know anything about Praziquantel...is there a problem with it do you think?


Regarding Pyrantel, have you tried your chemist? Its a wormer for people, but its called different things in different countries. Here in Australia its called `Anthel'.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Praziquantel is safe for birds but it's only for tapeworms, not roundworms. Ivermektin, Moxidectin and Pyrantel kill only roundworms, Fenbendazole kills them all.

I will post pictures of the poop, he is now digesting more quickly and his crop empties in few hours. I also bought formula with higher fat percentage, I use this formula on sick birds.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

One question: when bird only eats formula, his poop is supposed to be yellow, right? I have such experience with the formula.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

With some birds, I have read some in depth articles about how its possible for the worm infestation to be so bad that if you use an especially effective wormer, the worms all come away from the intestinal wall and cause bleeding and blockages. I still don't know if that is what happened when the Vet used the Wormout Gel, or if it was simply toxic to the bird? 

Oh, this stuff gives me nightmares. I would hate to lose a bird because of worming again.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, I read that too. But Fendendazole effects bone marrow, that's why it's dangerous although I dewormed many birds with Fenbendazole and they were fine. And two of them had huge infestation, they had worms in every poop and around it!!! You see poop and a circle of worms around it!


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Pictures!
What do you think?

http://imageshack.us/g/710/imag0073lr.jpg/

I brought him my pet pigeon Bebi in hands and showed Bebi to him, and the sick pigeon was so scared, started to blow up his crop, flapping wings and pecking air with his beak??!!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> Pictures!
> What do you think?
> 
> http://imageshack.us/g/710/imag0073lr.jpg/
> ...



Wow, so very beautiful! Is that the Young pigeon you have been treating?

I also have a very young one here, who I've had since he was a bit too young to leave the nest. He was all beak, like yours, when i got him. His droppings have been bad at times, but I have been cautious with medication, because at this age they are developing immunity and they need to get `a little bit sick' to do that. I have been nervous but he's very well after some episodes of having bad poop.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Yes, this is the sick one. Isn't he beautiful? What do you say about droppings??


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Eternal, yes its so very beautiful!

The droppings I saw look well formed to me. I would be feeling happy!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> Hi Msfreebird,
> 
> Thanks SO much- I do remember hearing you mention this before, and I picked up a product ( for people ) from my chemist called `Anthel'. It is a jar of Pyrantel tablets, 250mg Pyrantel each. I haven't sat down and figured out the dose yet...do you know off the top of your head what the dosage should be?


I use Pyrantel Pamoate (liquid). The strength is 50mg per ml, so each bird gets
.13ml orally OR 1.50ml per gallon of drinking water.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> With some birds, I have read some in depth articles about how its possible for the worm infestation to be so bad that if you use an especially effective wormer, the worms all come away from the intestinal wall and cause bleeding and blockages. I still don't know if that is what happened when the Vet used the Wormout Gel, or if it was simply toxic to the bird?
> 
> Oh, this stuff gives me nightmares. I would hate to lose a bird because of worming again.


Worming meds make me nervous! I use to use Eqvalen (ivermec horse drench), but its been on backorder for over a year (something about the labeling).
The first time I wormed my birds with ivermectin, I lost 2. I read that one possible side effect of ivermectin is 'temporary paralysis'. So when I had to repeat their worming, I did it on my day off and watched them afterward. 1 bird dropped to the bottom of the flight cage - paralyzed. He was alive but couldn't use his legs. I took him inside and the next day he was fine. So the first 2 did not die from the worming med, but instead were trampled while down  3 out of 80 birds got that rare side effect!
My vet told me to cut the individual dose in half OR put it in their drinking water. Since then I've had no problem. I would rotate between ivermectin and pyrantal. But I actually prefer pyrantal now. It's VERY safe AND effective. I give it to the whole loft, in their drinking water 3-4 times a year.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you Msfree! I will try out your idea, it sounds excellent.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

PS. MSfreebird, I just had the pleasure of my first look at your website, and I really loved every minute of it! Your loft is gorgeous, and I fell in love with your birds.

I noticed you have a king pigeon in there and I have a question for you...do you think king pigeon hens can (or would) mate with male racing pigeons? Or am I on the wrong track?


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Bella_F said:


> PS. MSfreebird, I just had the pleasure of my first look at your website, and I really loved every minute of it! Your loft is gorgeous, and I fell in love with your birds.
> 
> I noticed you have a king pigeon in there and I have a question for you...do you think king pigeon hens can (or would) mate with male racing pigeons? Or am I on the wrong track?


Thank you  When I got 'Walter' (king), we thought he was a King Pigeon. He was a stray. Now we think he's a Carneau.....He's way too big for a King....he's HUGE! He does have a mate, she is a very small white homer. They sit on eggs, but I don't let them hatch - I switch them. I don't dare to let them follow thru....he's just too big


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## whytwings (Feb 12, 2011)

Msfreebird said:


> Thank you  When I got 'Walter' (king), we thought he was a King Pigeon. He was a stray. Now we think he's a Carneau.....He's way too big for a King....he's HUGE! He does have a mate, she is a very small white homer. They sit on eggs, but I don't let them hatch - I switch them. I don't dare to let them follow thru....he's just too big


Aren't you just a little bit curious as to how they might turn out ?


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey Eternal, How is your gorgeous baby going today? I hope she's still improving !

Msfreebird, Thanks so much for the info! I looked up `Carneau' and I see what you mean about them being big. There is a local king pigeon breeder in my town who i like very much, and he has some hens for sale. In his loft are half brown/half white king pigeons as well. I suppose the brown comes from the Carneau then?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon is ok, still on chloramohenicol, amprolium and metronidazole, today is the last day on chloramphenicol, he has even gained some weight but he is still not eating! Why is that?? He picks some seeds with his beak but doesn't eat them.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi eternal,

I am sorry, I don't have any ideas except for the obvious ones, like maybe its because it is still young, or full already from formula, or feeling a bit sick from medicine. I don't really know. Maybe when the medicine has stopped you could try weaning it off formula?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

The pigeon is still not eating!!! He seems happy and content, even flies better, but doesn't eat anything!!! 
He is off meds now. I don't know what to do. I really haven't had this problem before. 
He is on the formula and vitamins, droppings are great, he is digesting normally and fast, he gained weight etc.
I tried not to feed him for whole day hoping he would start eating but he didn't. He is still squeaking when I approach him, he pecks me, flies, tonight he almost cooed.


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## Quazar (Jul 27, 2010)

This may sound like a silly question, but does he know how to eat ?
Does he know what seeds are & what hes supposed to do with then ?
Have you showed him ?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Quazar said:


> This may sound like a silly question, but does he know how to eat ?
> Does he know what seeds are & what hes supposed to do with then ?
> Have you showed him ?



Doesn't sound silly at all. Maybe he just has to be shown, and encouraged to eat on his own. This is where the frozen peas that have been defrosted and warmed, come in handy. Don't feed him formula. Change to the peas. Usually after feeding them this way a few times, they will learn to pick them up themselves and eat them. They are easier to pick up then seed. Probably because they are so soft. Try it. Then leave some with him to play with.


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

eternal said:


> The pigeon is still not eating!!! He seems happy and content, even flies better, but doesn't eat anything!!!
> He is off meds now. I don't know what to do. I really haven't had this problem before.
> He is on the formula and vitamins, droppings are great, he is digesting normally and fast, he gained weight etc.
> I tried not to feed him for whole day hoping he would start eating but he didn't. He is still squeaking when I approach him, he pecks me, flies, tonight he almost cooed.


I had a baby Fantail that had canker and had to bring her inside to medicate and tube feed. She took FOREVER to eat on her own!! I was really getting worried because I never had that happen before.
I started playing with the seed with my fingers and only gave her 1 small tube feeding a day, so she would get hungry. She finally started eating on her own when she figured out she wasn't getting 3 square meals a day with a tube!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

whytwings said:


> Aren't you just a little bit curious as to how they might turn out ?


Yes....and my curiosity has been answered! 
Walter and his little homer mate snuck a baby in! I call him Huey (like in 'Baby Huey' the cartoon character) I will start a new thread when I get a chance...don't want to hijack this one


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Thank you all. I don't know what to think, because he had seeds in crop when I found him, even corn, and I think he even ate something first two days, and then he got sick. I stopped with the formula yesterday and now I feed him seeds manually. I saw him picking seeds with his beak, but he doesn't eat them.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

the pigeon is eating, finally! great! your advice was very helpful, it was enough I fed him seeds for two days!


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> the pigeon is eating, finally! great! your advice was very helpful, it was enough I fed him seeds for two days!


Wow, such a happy story. Thank you eternal!


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## Msfreebird (Sep 23, 2007)

Ahhh Success!! Glad to hear it


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi all!

I have problems with the white pigeon. 
First, she is only eating white seed from the seed mix!!! Can you believe it? Only white seeds! I suppose it's because it matches her feather color!

Second, I think she is female, my male pigeon pet is courting her and now they are together in his bed! I even caught them feeding each other? Is she still too young for mating?

Third, I'm afraid if she is salmonella carrier, is this possible after two weeks of chloramphenicol?

Thank you!


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I have a bird that eats all the white seeds first, too... its pretty funny. He eats the others later, when he is hungry enough.. but always the white ones first.

Opinions differ about whether birds can remain carriers after antibiotic treatment, but my experiences -- and a lot of research--indicate that they can. 

Birds can mate very young... so I suspect that is exactly what is happening. If I were you, I would probably be on the safe side and pull any eggs... babies born to paratyphoid carriers often don't do too well in the long run.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

If you pull the eggs, then you have to replace them with fakes.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't plan on letting them hatch. So, should I separate them just in case, I mean because of salmonella??


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Dear Eternal,

I have been thinking about your questions. 

Regarding the white seeds, some white seeds, like safflower , are comparatively high in calories, so she might just have a craving for fat because of being sick. She might also like some sunflower Kernels and pellets as she gains weight, if she's not having them already.

Salmonella is cured using Baytril, and I believe its the only antibiotic that will clear the carrier-state as well. But the problem is that your lovely white hen wasn't tested for Salmonella, so we're still only guessing that she had it. So, you could either get her tested, or treat them both with a course of Baytril if the male starts to gets sick. He might have immunity of his own, depending on his origins?

PS. Good work with your hen. I'm so glad you saved her You're excellent.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

There seems to be some debate about whether even Baytril can get rid of the carrier state completely.... some think it can, others say no.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Well then I would have the droppings checked to see if the bird has Salmonella or not. That's pretty easy.


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## minimonkey (Apr 7, 2005)

I've read that the carrier state often doesn't show up on fecal tests (my vet said this as well) ... the bacterial load isn't necessarily high enough for it to show.... if you get a positive result, you have an answer, obviously ... but the negatives can apparently be deceiving.


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## shibu trippler (Oct 13, 2011)

i think u should try tetracycline hydrochloride powder.as 4-5 days before 1 of my pigeon was suffering but now he is fine. it can be used for prevention as well as treatment. prevention dose is 2.5g in 4.5l of drinking water, treatment dose is 1g/kg body weight.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

I don't know why Chloramphenicol couldn't cure Salmonella, i.e. clear the carrier-state, especially if the strain is resistant to Baytril. 

I will take the droppings to an analysis. 

My pigeon Bebi and the white pigeon (name is Crazy because she goes crazy when she sees seed bag) have already fed each other couple of times, is that bad?? but I don't think they mated because she flaps her wings when she wants to be fed, like youngsters??!!

She only eats white millet, hemp seed is also caloric and all my birds just love hemp seed, but she doesn't??!!


????

She is going to spend winter with me because she doesn't have all the feathers, I suppose it's because of illness.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi all. Crazy is still with me, she got fat and she is growing her feathers (if you remember, she missed most of her feathers because of illness), I will post some pictures later. She has a friend, my other male pigeon and they sometimes love each other and sometimes they fight. Now she eat all seeds, she ate only white millet before. 

I have a new pigeon, this one has a broken wing, I think a cat had caught him, I can see a teeth mark. I immediately put him on chloramphenicol because he wasn't eating well although he was in great shape. His poop was yellow, normal poop, and after chloramphenicol it turned green, "salmonella-green", green like bile. He is on Chloramphenicol for 5 and a half days, still not eating, poop is the same green, even when I give him the formula. 

The same thing happened with Crazy. She didn't fly, didn't eat that much, and right after Chloramphenicol her poop from yellow turned green. Why is that? Was she sick before the antibiotic? And why does it take a week of antibiotic to start to see an improvement? Is this because the bacteria are becoming resistant or what? I am worried.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> Hi all. Crazy is still with me, she got fat and she is growing her feathers (if you remember, she missed most of her feathers because of illness), I will post some pictures later. She has a friend, my other male pigeon and they sometimes love each other and sometimes they fight. Now she eat all seeds, she ate only white millet before.
> 
> I have a new pigeon, this one has a broken wing, I think a cat had caught him, I can see a teeth mark. I immediately put him on chloramphenicol because he wasn't eating well although he was in great shape. His poop was yellow, normal poop, and after chloramphenicol it turned green, "salmonella-green", green like bile. He is on Chloramphenicol for 5 and a half days, still not eating, poop is the same green, even when I give him the formula.
> 
> The same thing happened with Crazy. She didn't fly, didn't eat that much, and right after Chloramphenicol her poop from yellow turned green. Why is that? Was she sick before the antibiotic? And why does it take a week of antibiotic to start to see an improvement? Is this because the bacteria are becoming resistant or what? I am worried.


you may want to consult your vet, as he may need a different antibiotic for a cat bite.. like Augmenten or Clavamox, he may even want to inject an antibiotic to get it in his system quicker as cat bites can be deadly because of the bacteria they have in their mouths. it is a good sign he is still alive though as the bacteria from a cat's bite can put them down pretty quick.


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## Bella_F (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the update eternal! I didn't know you could give Chloramphenicol for cat bites, as I thought Baytril was the right antibiotic to use to kill the bacteria in the cat's saliva. But I'm not very up to date with dealing with cat wounds.

Regarding the colour of the droppings, maybe the formula is responsible for producing this colour in both birds? When your pigeon is ready to go off the formula and eat seed, I guess you'll know then. Green is a healthier colour than yellow in pigeon poop.



> And why does it take a week of antibiotic to start to see an improvement?


It might have been sick beforehand like you mentioned, which enabled a predator to catch it and hurt it. I find that happens a lot at my place. As for what was wrong with it, without vet tests we can only guess. I generally treat for canker, worms, cocci, and bacterial infections, and add Nilstat towards the end of the course of antibiotics for yeast.(of course you probably remember me saying that from before). The Chloramphenicol would treat only for bacteria so like your last rescue, it may just needs some other treatment.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Chloramphenicol is also used for septicemia, see here http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chloramphenicol-n.php

I don't know if I made a mistake of letting Crazy and my pigeon be together, what if she is a carrier. But even my pigeon had Salmonella once, he was also on Chloramphenicol. I'm scared of taking their droppings for analysis! I bought them Beta glucan and in January I'm going to start them on beta glucan every day and probiotics, all mixed in the formula so they won't throw up. I won't start before New Years Eve, I have so much stress with this new pigeon and I'm also afraid of infecting them.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Bella_F said:


> Regarding the colour of the droppings, maybe the formula is responsible for producing this colour in both birds? When your pigeon is ready to go off the formula and eat seed, I guess you'll know then. Green is a healthier colour than yellow in pigeon poop.


It's not the formula, the dropping were green before I started them on the formula. When you give a bird the formula, the dropping are yellow, but when they have salmonella (at least I think this one had salmonella, as I said before, sometimes I took their droppings for an analysis, sometimes I didn't because the symptoms were the same and I had mice on the balcony) even when the bird is only on the formula the poop is green. When the poop turn yellow, the bird gets better.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

eternal said:


> Chloramphenicol is also used for septicemia, see here http://www.chevita.com/en/products/chloramphenicol-n.php
> 
> I don't know if I made a mistake of letting Crazy and my pigeon be toghether, what if she is a carrier. But even my pigeon had Salmonella once, he was also on Chloramphenicol. I'm scared of taking their droppings for analysis! I bought them Beta glucan and in January I'm going to start them on beta glucan every day and probiotics, all mixed in the formula so they won't throw up. I won't start before New Years Eve, I have so much stress with this new pigeon and I'm also afraid of infecting them.


the bacteria from a cat bite is Pasteurella bacteria, septicemia is a condition... what you need to know is if the chloramephenical works on that bacteria.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

*I have one more question. I think my pet pigeon picked the sick pigeon's feeding tube with his beak, does this mean he got infected and what should I do? I have gentamicin, should I give it to him orally??? After I found him in the room where I put the sick pigeon and after I saw that the feeding tube was moved I gave him Bactrim, but he vomited. Then I gave him beta glucan in the formula. What now? How much should I be worried? *


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You should be keeping them separated. They shouldn't be together at all.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

But they are toghether since October. Three months now. What now???


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

Why would you keep a sick pigeon with another pigeon?


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

She was isolated while she was sick. She was on an antibiotic for 15,16 days, also I treated her for coccidia and canker and she got cured, and after month of therapy I let her in the apartment (she was on my balcony) where my other pigeon lives.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

So when you find a pigeon or and even when you cure him, or when you cure sick pigeon, you shouldn't put him with other pigeons?


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

When you find a new pigeon, he should be quarantined for a month before putting him with other birds. This gives any illnesses he has, time to show themselves. If you put a bird with an illness with another bird, of course you are taking the chance of making the other bird sick. Not until you are sure that they are healthy, should they be put with others.


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## eternal (Feb 13, 2010)

Jay3 said:


> When you find a new pigeon, he should be quarantined for a month before putting him with other birds. This gives any illnesses he has, time to show themselves. If you put a bird with an illness with another bird, of course you are taking the chance of making the other bird sick. Not until you are sure that they are healthy, should they be put with others.


Ok, thank you. I know that and I am very careful. I disinfect everything, I even get dermatitis on my hands from the chemicals I use to wash my hands. 

I think I put Crazy with my pet in October, somewhere around 15th, and I got her on the 1st September, so it passed more than a month. I know also about PMV, so I'm really careful but I know that I always risk, even when the risk is small. I really don't want to rescue birds anymore because of my birds, but it's very hard to look away when you see a sick or injured animal, especially when you are its only chance to survive.


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