# Green Poop.



## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

first of all I don't have a working camera right now. I noticed a pair of my birds have green slimy poop. Is that worms? What do I use to treat them?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how long have they had it?


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

I just noticed it today, but I see some other poo that's green so maybe a couple days?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

how are they acting?


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Normal to me.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

add some ACV to the water... and keep an eye on it.. you don't want to give meds unless they are really needed.. sometimes weather and humidity or just diet can have a change on droppings.. and a hen if she is getting ready to lay can have the off droppings too.


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Ok what is AVC? Sorry for the questions, but this is my first possible med issue.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pip Logan said:


> Ok what is AVC? Sorry for the questions, but this is my first possible med issue.


Apple cider vinegar.. in the water.. sorry thought you new as long as you have been around here.... you can get the organic kind in the organic section of the grocery..two tablespoons per gallon of water for a few days..and then twice or three times a week..


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## GEMcC5150 (Oct 24, 2010)

Is ACV just a good over all add to the water each week?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

GEMcC5150 said:


> Is ACV just a good over all add to the water each week?


yes it is good to give a few times a week...

here is more info on why and what it does..
http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticles/pigeonandloft/wonders-apple-cider-vinegar


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Ok great! I guess I've just been lucky. Thanks for the tip. How long till it clears it up if thats the issue?


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

Pip Logan said:


> Ok great! I guess I've just been lucky. Thanks for the tip. How long till it clears it up if thats the issue?


a few days.. if it does not get better.. then you may treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic.. and just guessing...one that covers cocci.. be sure to clean the loft floor everyday too..


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Great thanks!


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

before I would give any antibiotic I would give probiotics first .

I see you live in Ca. The grass is green this time of year? It could be just too much green plant eating. Or if the birds are off their food alittle they will get too much bile in the dropping and it will turn green.

Spirit Wings right about loft condition, and the ACV will help make the bowel weakly acidic which helps weakens the bad bacteria. Normal bowel bacteria produce lactic acid too.
So do the probiotic mixes for birds an animals.


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Their convict birds so their not eating anything I don't give them. I'll dose with AVC. And see what happens.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Thats good ,1 thing off the list of possible problems. Just remember that the ACV will not replace the good gut bacteria. That will take time on it own.

Other bowel inflammation causes: Salmonella , coccidia, worms E. coli ,candida, herpes virus, Hexamita, and chlamydia


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ACV is a prebiotic.... Prebiotics stimulate the growth of healthy microflora that populate intestine......which feeds probiotics...


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Well I will start today when I get home from work. I have the stuff already mixed and ready to deploy.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

spirit wings, I'm not disputing the benfilts of ACV. In fact I use it in my pigeon health program. My confussion comes from your words about antibotics and the word cocci . I'm thinking you mean "Coccidia" which is a protozoan, and is considerd a parasite, not a bacteria.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

ERIC K said:


> spirit wings, I'm not disputing the benfilts of ACV. In fact I use it in my pigeon health program. My confussion comes from your words about antibotics and the word cocci . I'm thinking you mean "Coccidia" which is a protozoan, and is considerd a parasite, not a bacteria.


cocci..short to coccidia I really don't spell it out much anymore.. which should be included with an antibacteral..the "cocci" could be getting a hold because of something else..so I said something that covers cocci like 
Aueromycin / Sulmet ... hopefully he won't have to.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

thanks for clarification, and I second the "hopefully he won't have to"


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## Victor (Dec 18, 2004)

I have used Bragg's (brand) AppleCider Vinegar "with the mother" for many years. Most every health food store sells it.A bottle of concentrate lasts me about a year and is about 3 dollars or so. I add two level teaspoons to a gallon of water on alternating days twice a week. As stated previously, weather or a number of things leading to stress can contribute to the droppings changing.


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## Pip Logan (Oct 6, 2009)

Started the water tonight, let's see what happens the next couple days.


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## sreeshs (Aug 16, 2009)

Honestly, I never get out of green poops from my pigeons  There will be that one fellow who will poop green every now and then.


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

sreeshs said:


> Honestly, I never get out of green poops from my pigeons  There will be that one fellow who will poop green every now and then.


very true..no need to panic with an every now and then green.. my birds always have brown/greenish droppings.. it is the bright all green ones that need watching..esp if they are sloppy.


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## hankabus (Dec 3, 2009)

*Acv*



spirit wings said:


> ACV is a prebiotic.... Prebiotics stimulate the growth of healthy microflora that populate intestine......which feeds probiotics...


So Spirit, I use a probiotic called Acid-Pak 4-Way once and sometimes twice a week in the water, Do you think It would be even more efficient to use ACV maybe once a week in addition to the probiotic ? However I rarely see green wet stool but it does happen occasionally.

Hank


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## spirit wings (Mar 29, 2008)

hankabus said:


> So Spirit, I use a probiotic called Acid-Pak 4-Way once and sometimes twice a week in the water, Do you think It would be even more efficient to use ACV maybe once a week in addition to the probiotic ? However I rarely see green wet stool but it does happen occasionally.
> 
> Hank


yes, the ACV, keeps the gut in a balanced state... which makes it easier for the birds to stay healthy.. think of it as keeping them in balance... and feeding their natural immunities.. to ward off or keep the bad in check.. it is just a helper of good gut bacteria.. it is not a fix all though, clean good feed, fresh water, not over crowding, a clean loft.. which adds up to good husbandtry..goes a long way to keep birds healthy...it is not just one simple thing.


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## sport14692 (Jan 3, 2011)

Where Can I Find Acv?


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## jeff houghton (Jul 17, 2010)

spirit wings said:


> a few days.. if it does not get better.. then you may treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic.. and just guessing...one that covers cocci.. be sure to clean the loft floor everyday too..


Ive always associated dark green slimey droppings with cocci too.I would treat for that.


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## Thunderbird Racing (Jul 24, 2010)

sport14692 said:


> Where Can I Find Acv?


I get it from the grocery store.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

Coccidiosis
By Dr. Colin Walker B.Sc. B.V.Sc. M.A.C.V.S (avian health)

In my last article I discussed the most common disease stopping good pigeons from performing well during racing, namely wet canker. This article discusses a second problem that can also do this, coccidiosis. Here in a nut shell is how to stop this still surprisingly common problem from affecting your birds race performance.



What is it?

Coccidia are a group of parasitic organisms that have the amazing ability to reproduce themselves both sexually and asexually in various organs throughout the body. There are lots of different types. Some reproduce in the kidney, others in the liver, some are carried throughout the body in red blood cells, but the common one that infects racing pigeons affects the bowel.



Basically what happens is that the organism releases eggs that come out in the droppings. These have to sit in the environment for at least a couple of days to become infective. They do however become infective quicker in damp conditions. Once infective, if a pigeon accidentally swallows one of these eggs, they move down into the bowel and hatch. In the common type of coccidia in pigeons four “larvae” come out of each egg. These then burrow into the bowel wall where initially they reproduce asexually –essentially they just keep dividing so that two become four become eight etc. After a while these “larvae” differentiate into males and females. These then reproduce sexually resulting in the formation of eggs. These eggs then rupture back into the bowel before passing out of the body in the droppings. In this way the lifecycle is completed.



What is the significance of coccidiosis?

When the parasites are reproducing in the wall of the bowel they damage it. This means that the bowel cannot digest food and absorb nutrients properly. Affected youngsters usually lose a bit of weight and start to become a bit quiet. Often in race birds all that is seen is a loss of form. Powder down feather drop stops and some birds will develop a ‘pica’- pecking at perches or eating droppings apparently to source the nutrients they are missing.



Of equal importance for race birds is that the inflamed bowel wall actually weeps inflammatory fluid into the bowel so that the pigeon looses tissue protein and blood from its system. When we draw blood for testing from birds with coccidiosis we find that both the red blood cell count and the level of total protein in the blood are low. Having low total protein causes absolute fatigue even after moderate exercise while, of course, red blood cells carry oxygen throughout the body. Pigeons with coccidiosis therefore become breathless and tired after moderate exercise. Even low infections have drastic effects on performance and returns particularly on low velocity or distance flys.



What to do?

As with wet canker, pigeons need exposure to coccidia when young to form a natural immunity. Repeatedly treating young growing healthy pigeons makes no sense. Certainly this will mean that they have no coccidia but at one stage treatment will have to stop. As they would not have had any exposure, their immunity would be low and they would in fact be quite vulnerable to the disease as adult birds. Regularly treating in this way simply interrupts the ongoing exposure they need to form a strong natural immunity. Keeping the loft clean and dry will limit exposure and in most cases make treatment not necessary



If coccidiosis levels rise in young birds it usually makes some of them a bit quiet and fluffed and some will develop a green or watery dropping. If some of your young birds show these symptoms don’t assume it is coccidiosis. Get a vet with avian experience to check some dropping under the microscope. If it is diagnosed and the level has risen to the point where it is compromising their development then the birds should be treated. In young birds treatment is only given if the parasite is causing clinical disease and compromising the bird’s development. In race birds the situation is entirely different. Fanciers should have their birds droppings checked several weeks before the first race and if any coccidia are present the birds should be treated. It is good to let the growing young pigeon form as strong a natural immunity as possible but then get the birds droppings checked before racing to make sure no infection is present. If coccidia are present the team should then be treated to make sure the season is started with healthy birds.



In summary allow a controlled exposure to the disease in young birds through maintaining a clean dry loft and avoiding treatment unless the parasite is actually making the birds sick. In most cases, you will find when the birds are checked prior to the first race that they are clear of the disease, having formed a strong natural immunity. This however should not be assumed and checking is essential. Any residual infection should be treated prior to racing so that the birds can give their best.



Monitoring the disease through racing

Through racing the level of coccidia in competitive birds should be absolute zero. Droppings should be regularly checked under a microscope throughout the season. When the problem is identified it should be treated. The eggs are readily visible when magnified a hundred times. It seems that as little as one egg on every second or third x100 microscope field is enough to compromise performance.



Treatment

There are a whole range of coccidia treatments available. Many are pharmaceutical dinosaurs and should be discarded. The one I commonly use and recommend is toltrazuril

1. toltrazuril

Toltrazuril is sold under the brand name “Baycox”. The reason I like it is that it only has to be given for two days to be effective and it is very safe.” Baycox” only requires a treatment course of two days. This means that if the condition is diagnosed early in the week the whole course can be given before the next race. The drug works in an amazing way. It substitutes for vitamin B. This means the parasite “thinks” that toltrazuril is actually vitamin B and takes it into its system but once inside the drug then kills the coccidia. Another advantage of “ Baycox “is that it can be combined with any other treatement eg. for canker or respiritary infection etc. but not with vitamin supplements that contain vitamin B. Supplementing with vitamin B simultaneously overrides the effect of the drug. Interestingly human coccidiosis is common, apparently in people with AIDS. A medico friend of mine told me that toltrazuril is used here.

The dose of “Baycox’ is 6mg/kg. As the solution is 25mg/ml this works out at 3mls/1L of drinking water. This solution is made fresh each day and provided as the sole drinking water for two days in a row. As I mentioned, any other medication can be mixed with it except B group vitamins.

2. amprolium

Sold under a range of brand names. An effective drug that has the disadvantage of having to be given for five days to clear an infection.

3. sulphur antibiotics

Sulphur based antibotics such as trimethoprim/ sulphdiazine do have some action against coccidia but they are essentially antibacterial drugs that have the side affect of also interfering with coccidia reproduction. Their anti bacterial property is usually a disadvantage because they tend to kill the good bacteria in the bowel.



As with most drugs these days, resistance to all the above medications is seen and a successful treatment can never be guaranteed even if the drug is used correctly. Because of this it isvery important to check the droppings after treatment to make sure it has worked.



Interestingly during the race season, pigeons often seem to get into a negative disease cascade so that if one disease appears it often weakens the birds predisposing them to other diseases. At my clinic we often find that birds with coccidia also have wet canker. Many of my clients are at a distance from the clinic and even though it can be easy to mail in droppings it can be more difficult to bring in live birds. I find that birds that have coccidia in their droppings often have wet canker. And so if you do mail droppings into your avian vet and he/she finds coccidia and it is not possible to take pigeons in for a crop flush [to check for wet canker ] do be sensitive to the fact that if they have coccidia, wet caker may also be involved. If necessary the “Turbosole” (for wet canker) and “Baycox” can be mixed in the same drinking water
__________________


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

By Dr Colin Walker BSc, BVSc, MRCVS, MACVSc (Avian health) 

One good way of monitoring the birds’ health is by observing their droppings. As most fanciers clean their racing loft each day, simply observing the droppings during the cleaning process is a good way of monitoring the birds’ health over the previous 24 hours. Many problems that affect race performance are subclinical. This means that race form is affected before the birds actually start to look sick to the fancier. As changes in the dropping usually occur 1 - 2 days before an unwell bird starts to look sick to us, observing and effectively managing the abnormal changes in droppings does much to head off a downward turn in form. 

Essentially, the bowel is a hollow tube into which several organs, in particular the liver, empty via ducts. The bowel terminates in the cloaca (a bag just inside the bird’s external opening). Ducts leading from the kidney also terminate here and deposit the bird’s urinary waste. Birds, interestingly, produce two sorts of urine, a liquid urine, which looks like clear water, and also a solid urine made up of a white paste of uric acid crystals. Therefore, in the cloaca accumulate the undigested remnants of food from the bowel, liquid and solid urine from the kidney and a number of normal discharges, notably bile from the liver and also mucus from the bowel wall. Once in the cloaca, some fluid is resorbed until, in health, a firm dropping, normally of a brownish colour, is produced. When the cloaca is uncomfortably full, the bird relaxes the cloacal opening and passes a dropping. 

Green droppings
The main factor affecting the colour of a pigeon’s dropping is what it has eaten. Pigeons digest many of the pigments found in their food rather poorly and so these pass relatively unaltered through the system and colour the dropping. In this way, birds eating, for example, a lot of pink minerals, can be expected to have brownish droppings. Also birds eating greenish grain (eg dun peas) or supplemented with green vegetables (such as silver beet) or free-ranging and pecking at grass will have more green droppings. Green can, however, alert the fancier to the possibility of a problem. This is because green droppings can occur with bowel disease. The green colour comes from bile, which in birds is a brilliant fluorescent green. Bile is a digestive enzyme produced by the liver. After a number of metabolic steps, it passes from the liver down a duct (called the bile duct) into the bowel where it aids the digestive process. After digestion in the bowel, components of the bile are reabsorbed through the bowel wall for reuse. If the bowel is diseased, this process cannot occur normally, with the result that more green bile stays in the bowel and is passed in the dropping, resulting in a green dropping. Green droppings, therefore, can alert the fancier to the possibility of bowel disease. Usually, microscopic examination of a faecal smear will show the cause. There is always some bile left, which when mixed with the rest of the dropping, gives it a greenish hue. Although in the early stages of bowel disease birds can produce a firm dropping that is green, as a general rule such droppings are associated with the ingestion of non-digestible green pigments. It is always safest, however, to have a vet or technician microscopically examine a few green droppings to check that everything is okay. Because inflamed bowels not only absorb bile but also water poorly, green droppings that are also watery do, however, almost invariably point to a problem. The only notable exception here would be the droppings of recently returned race birds. Because these birds have not eaten during the race, their droppings are made up of urine, bile and bowel mucus and appear as a clear fluid ring with a small central amount of green mucousy material and white paste (the solid urine). In healthy birds, once in the loft and having eaten, their droppings should start to become normal within a few hours and unless the race was particularly taxing, should be completely normal by the next morning. 

Watery droppings
Watery droppings occur commonly in only one of two situations, either where there is bowel disease interfering with absorption of fluid or alternatively where the urine component of the dropping is visible. A watery dropping associated with bowel disease occurs because any inflammatory condition of the bowel interferes with its function and compromises its ability to absorb fluid. The result is a watery dropping. Possibilities include infectious problems such as worms, coccidia, ‘thrush’ or a bacterial infection, while the most likely non-infectious causes are ingestion of either irritant or toxic substances either while free-lofting or associated with a change of diet. Usually an infectious cause can be detected quickly by microscopic examination of a faecal smear. 

A watery dropping due to visible urine may or may not be a problem. As discussed above, the bowel and urinary waste accumulate in the cloaca . Here urine is absorbed by the bowel component of the dropping and some fluid is resorbed back into the body until a moist, well-formed dropping is ready to be passed. If the bird is disturbed, the cloaca will be evacuated prematurely before this process is completed. The result is a healthy dropping from a healthy bird that, because it is watery, can concern the fancier. The most common time that this is observed is after the morning exercise. Here the birds have not been fed so there is virtually no digested food in the dropping. Provided the birds are not dehydrated, urine production is constant. The birds often empty their cloaca on landing. The result is a small amount of green-brown material (mainly bile and bowel mucus), surrounded by a ring of clear water. And so a watery dropping in the morning prior to feeding, and particularly after exercise, is usually quite normal. A better time to assess the dropping is after feeding and a period of rest. As digested food starts to appear in the cloaca several hours after feeding, this acts like a sponge, mopping up the urine and cloacal emptying by the birds only occurs when the cloaca is full.

If droppings with urine rings persist through the day, it is probable that the birds are producing excessive urine. This occurs if the birds are drinking excessively. In a race team, this is almost invariably due to one of only two problems, namely wet canker or airsac inflammation. The wet canker organisms produce a toxin, which amongst other things makes the birds thirsty, resulting in an increased water intake, while inflamed airsacs lose their moisture-conserving ability, resulting in excess fluid loss in the expired air. To prevent dehydration, the birds need to counteract this and often overcompensate and drink to excess. A fancier can determine if wet canker is involved by organising for his local bird vet or technician to do a crop flush. If this is not possible, the condition may on occasion be diagnosed by response to treatment, eg giving a 2-day course of Turbosole (ronidazole) and monitoring the response. If there is inflammation in the deeper respiratory structures like the airsacs, there is usually also inflammation in the upper respiratory structures, such as the trachea and sinuses. This almost invariably leads to an increased level of sneezing in the loft. If there is no sneezing in a race loft, it is unlikely that a respiratory infection is active. If uncertain, a sample of mucus from the back of the throat can be examined microscopically (often done at the same time as a crop flush) which will, if a respiratory infection is present, reveal signs of inflammation and secondary infection. If infection is confirmed, usually a 3 - 5-day course of Doxy-T (doxycycline / Tylan) is given. Because approximately 80% of birds with respiratory infection during the race season also have a concurrent wet canker, often the Doxy-T and Turbosole are blended together. One teaspoon (3 g) per 2 litre of each is given in the drinking water. This blend turns the water a pale yellow colour and the birds drink it readily. By simultaneously treating any wet canker present, the response to antibiotics is always much better. 

A more full explanation of changes observed in droppings can be found in my book The Flying Vet’s Pigeon Health & Management.


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## ERIC K (Mar 29, 2010)

sorry for the copy and paste, This was posted in 2008 on Pigeon talk . I think it will help people understand better. For less than $20.00 you can have your birds poop, checked for any problems at any vet clinic. No guessing and treating for problems that you don't have .


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