# Found & Raised Baby - Acquired More - FIRST EGGS COLD - ADVICE PLEASE



## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

I FOUND A BABY PIGEON...
During the summer I found a young squeaker that had fallen from its nest and made its way into a shop in the town centre. I picked it up and looked around for a nest nearby, but no luck. I got a clean box from a retailers recycling bin down an alleyway nearby, put the baby inside and off I went. I took the baby home and decided to try to do my best to look after it. I initially force fed the baby sweetcorn and peas from the freezer, warmed up with boiling water. This was all I had available at the time. After a couple of days I then fed a warm mixture of crushed wild birdseeds and porridge through a syringe with a modified larger hole for my mushy concoction! I fed these meals for a few days whilest waiting for some kaytee exact hand feeding formula to arrive in the post.

I GOT A FRIEND FOR MY PIGEON...
The pigeon was being kept in my empty parrot cage indoors, as I was due to be getting a young eclectus parrot. The pigeon soon grew and started pecking at the offered seeds, all the fluff dissappeared, and the squeaking near stopped. I built a temporary flat pack aviary outside to move the now tame pigeon to so that the intended occupant for the parrot cage could be collected and move in. But it then dawned on me that my Pidge had had human company all day and just moving them outside with less contact might be stressful. So I started taking Pidge out to the aviary for flights and snoozes in my company to create a certain level of comfort and familiarity. Eventually I found someone not too far away who breeds and gives away pigeons. So I got Pidge a feathered friend who I called Widge. Initially Pidge was a bit of a bully, but they eventually started to get along.

ACQUIRED 3RD PIGEON...
On the morning of the day that I went to collect my new parrot, a neighbour turned up with another youngster, as they didn't know what to do with it. Again, it wasn't weaned and needed hand feeding for a week or so before being gradually moved in with the others. I named this one Midge.

PIDGE LAID HER FIRST EGG 10/12/16...
I didn't realise she'd start laying so soon, and not a great time of year to be doing it! There was nothing in the aviary to use as a nest. She wasn't sitting on the egg and it was cold, so in my ignorance I picked it up and handled it quite roughly, but decided to leave it with her incase taking it away made her lay more. I then started reading and found out that there can be days between eggs and that there's usually 2 and they might not sit on them until after the 2nd egg. I also read that shaking an egg can kill it. So then I felt bad that I might've killed her 1st egg.

PIDGE LAID HER SECOND EGG 12/12/16
I got back from work to find that she'd laid her 2nd egg and was sitting on them both. She was nestled on a damp and dirty rag (far from ideal). I decided to move her onto a more appropriate 'nest'. I dragged the rag towards me, put some clean vet bedding behind her and gradually moved her and her eggs onto the clean bedding and took away the rag. I put her 3 feathers back with her eggs and put some hay in there too. She initially had a bit of a freak out and left her nest spot for maybe 3-5 mins. She then returned but was next to her eggs and not on them! I then went outside later to find that she was on a perch and had left them and they'd gone cold. 

NOW...
She's currently eating Bucktons pigeon conditioner and grit is available.
As she now has a clean and warm place to nest, if she does lay again I will leave well alone! I just got worried that she might get sick. I thought that if she'd used up her energy on producing eggs that her immune system might not be as strong and that she'd get sick and die from nesting on a damp dirty rag!

HELP AND ADVICE PLEASE...

How long should I leave the eggs in there before throwing them away?

How much grit should I provide for the 3 pigeons?

Is she likely to attempt to lay more eggs right away?

What can I do to help her recuperate?

Any and all advice is welcomed, I've gotten very attached to the pigeons and would feel awful if my ignorance resulted in their illness or death!


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

You need to take the eggs out the day after laying and replace them with plastic eggs that you can get on eBay, the dummy eggs will stop her from laying immediately again which can deplete her calcium supply and weaken her. I have taken the first egg out before the second is laid as my girl lays two days apart, then I replace the second egg with a dummy after she's sat on it for a day - so as not to stress her immediately after laying. The eggs don't start developing spider veins until three/four days old so removing them within 24/48 hours is not cruel to the embryo as it hasn't started forming yet. You will need to buy some calcium and vit D3 supplement too, it helps keep calcium levels on par. I give it to all my birds twice a week in their water, four drops to half pint and once I know the hens have mated I use it in water every day until the eggs are laid then give twice a week, I use Calcivet - as well as grit. My grit pots are partially emptied and topped up every day and completely emptied twice a week because I know there are certain grits they prefer. My five have individual small hamster bowl sized grit bowls in their cages and a communal cat dish sized bowl for when they are out which they share. They don't eat loads but they do like to have a sort out every now and then. Are yours feral pigeons? I have three lovely ferals and two pretty white tumblers that I hand reared.


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## cwebster (Dec 11, 2010)

FredaH summed up nicely about egg laying, fake eggs, and calcium. Would love to see photos of your birds. Thank you for rescuing them.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You do need to get some fake eggs or you will be over run with pigeons in a short period of time. Pigeons will often abandon eggs or babies if you move them. You really should discourage letting them raise babies during the cold weather, as the babies can freeze to death. Why was there a dirty wet rag for them to lay on in the first place? Are they in an aviary or an enclosure to protect them from the weather? Can you post a picture of the enclosure?


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank-you kindly for the information and advice. I have ordered some of the liquid calcivet, so it should be with me soon. The rag was inside a wooden box in their enclosure and I'd failed to realise the pigeons had pooped on it and then presumably gone inside the box after having a bath at some point. (The enclosure has a roof, and sheets of firm plastic covering the wire sides since it started getting colder.) Every time I've gone out too see them, they've never shown any interest in the box and I hadn't ever seen them in it. They were always either on perches or on the ground or on the roof of the box. It was only when I went too see them and couldn't see Pidge that I then looked inside the box and saw her in there and in turn saw the rag was damp and dirty! I'll definitely be checking in the box for any soiling or moisture daily from now on. I will see if I can get some photos uploaded in the near future. Thanks again.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

This is Pidge not long after I found her and I was keeping her indoors in a parrot cage on a heat pad.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

This a Widge on the way to come and live with Pidge!


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Pidge and Widge having a meal together after Widges arrival.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Pidge and Midge - after Midge had already been with us for a while. (I was so busy with the arrival of the baby parrot that I didn't get any earlier photos! :-(


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

I will try to get some new photos uploaded soon so you can see how big they are now! The above ones are just what I happened to have on my phone.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Are my pigeons any particular breed or are they just a random feral mixture? I would be interested to know - as I don't have any knowledge or experience with regards to such things! - YET


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

They look like ferals to me and IMO they are the best. I've got two tumblers but my ferals are the most friendly, the sit and wait by the mesh door for their humans and as soon as you go in you're wearing them. I love ferals and they have such characters.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank-you again everyone for sharing all the info. And thankyou FredaH for pictures of your flock!

UPDATE...
She laid eggs again just before Christmas eve I believe. So this time I left well alone as I knew the bedding in the box was warm and dry and clean! Yesterday when feeding and changing the water I found egg shells on the floor of the aviary. I pieced the bits together and it's definitely 2 eggs worth. She's still sat in her box and I haven't heard any squeaking. Will she be sitting on chicks? Will she still sit on them if they have passed away? I read that the main problem with chicks at this time of year is the cold, so I put warm fleece vet bedding into the box and then some hay (prior to her laying), so it shouldn't be too cold in there. I've also been leaving a bit of food just inside the door of the box so she has a little stash there. I was worried about her leaving the nest for too long when feeding. I haven't seen either of the others sitting on the nest, are the fathers usually involved in the incubation? How long should it be before I can hear the chicks squeaking? Should I be concerned? As she's a first time mum, might she forget to feed them? Any advice as to what I can do now, or what I should be looking out for would be greatly appreciated (what with me being a total novice!) I do still have hand feeding formula left from when I fed her and Midge. As it's been open this long, would I need to buy fresh if I needed to hand raise, or will it still be ok to use? I'm both excited and nervous about Pidge being a mum.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

You don't know if she has a mate? Normally the male would sit during the day and she at night, and into late morning. But sometimes it takes the males a while to become good partners. It's better if you have pairs, rather than having singles in with them also. Just works out better. If she isn't mated to the male, but there is another female who is mated to the male, then he usually won't help her raise the babies. You said you had added a bird a while back. So that makes 3. If you don't know what gender they are, or if they are mated up or what, then it's hard to tell you. This isn't a good time of year to let them breed. If they don't sit tight on the babies, they can freeze. You will have to get fake eggs, because they will over breed and soon you will have too many birds. Figure out what gender they all are and get the third bird a mate and things will go smoother. When you do get a new bird in, always quarantine the newcomer for a month before putting it with your other birds. This way you can make sure it is healthy before putting them together.

As far as the formula, it should still be good, but when you do have anything like that left over, it's better to freeze it. It will last a long time that way. If the parents do their job then you shouldn't need it. The problem is that if she isn't actually mated to a male, and doesn't get help with raising the babies, then she may give up and abandon them. See if you can figure out if she is part of a mated pair. You should see him at the nest box on occasion or see them together.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank-you for the reply. I did see Widge with a feather in their beak when Pidge laid her first pair of eggs. Does that mean Widge was helping to 'build' a nest? Would this indicate Widge is her mate? I'm not sure of the sex of Widge and Midge - but at least one has to be male - otherwise it's an immaculate conception haha! What is the best way to sex a pigeon? I should be able to get another as a mate from an elderly gentleman I know of, I believe he breeds and sells his white ones but gives away his feral crossed ones. I don't want to get the wrong sex, but saying that, I guess it's possible to have gay pigeons sometimes too. I will look on eBay for some fake eggs...


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Pigeons lay eggs with or without a male but obviously only the ones fertilised will hatch. Some folk on here have paired females who take turns sitting on eggs as if they were a true mated pair. Probably a lot less aggro than having a male around in fact, lol.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

At feeding time I was able to sneak a peek and saw two wriggling fluffy yellow blobs under Pidge! She's doing a fine job keeping them warm so far. I think putting food and grit in her nest box has helped, as it means she hasn't had to leave them for long enough for them to get cold. As far as I know, she's just coming out for a drink every now and then. I've been removing her poop from the edge of her nest area to try to reduce bacteria levels near the babies.

I also wondered about dangers of using disinfectant. I have some Harkers dry loft treatment, and was wondering if it's dangerous if I use too much or if it's ingested or inhaled? I put some on the floor and some on the top of the nest box - which also doubles as a feeding station as their steel bowl is situated just above. 

It's meant to be frosty tonight and I wanted to reduce moisture to help prevent frost. Did I use the right thing? is it safe around the hatchlings?


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

UPDATE...
The babies thrived and are now starting to fly and feed themselves! I initially changed their nesting material after 2 weeks as it had become soiled. During their development I saw Widge feed them a couple of times, so I'm presuming he was the daddy! I've also come to realise that Midge too is male, so I recently acquired a female for him to pair up with. So now I've got (potentially) 2 adult pairs and 2 youngsters. So I was thinking of letting my newest addition and Midge have babies so that the youngsters can pair up too - after that it'll be fake eggs all the way! I think 4 pairs of pigeons is plenty enough for me to look after.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Here's a photo from 6th Feb (they hatched 11th Jan).


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

At the moment I think the one on the left is a girl and the one on the right is a boy, but we'll see...


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## FredaH (Apr 5, 2016)

Oh they are sooo adorable, I love this stage when they're learning to fly because they're so cute and funny. I have three pairs of house pigeons and two of the pairs are brothers and sisters. The feral brother and sister are from two different clutches with same parents and my tumbler brother and sister were from the same nest and have been raised together. I don't let any of my eggs hatch but give them dummy eggs after laying but from what I read on a post on here it wouldn't make any difference if I did hatch a sibling pairs eggs because they don't carry health risk of deformity like mammals do. You could just have the three pair like I have and let these babies pair with each other. After all they don't know they're brother and sister, only you do. 

So pleased with your update, beautiful babies. Thank you.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

UPDATE... 
So, the new lady pigeon laid eggs... on the floor! One was broken when I found them, the other was being sat on by the daddy  I did feel bad for him. So I took the egg away (no raising babies on a poopy floor!) I have a box in the aviary which has two separate nesting compartments in it. So I'm guessing the other pair are dominating both compartments!? It looks like I'm going to need to provide MORE nesting box options. I was rather hoping they'd of successfully laid and incubated (IN THE BOX PROVIDED) already. But no such luck. 

ANOTHER NEW FLOCK MEMBER...?
On the walk home from work I found a squeaker in an alleyway. Not fully feathered yet. There was a nest up above on some kind of 'electrics' box, but there were about 5 adult birds all seemingly jostling for space. I could hear another squeaker therein. I couldn't get access to the nest area as I couldn't reach. So put the baby on a different protruding box thing on the wall a bit lower down. I stood back to see if a parent would come to feed it there. After waiting, an adult bird flew over and proceeded to barge the baby off! I lunged with my hands out and managed to catch the baby before it hit the concrete. So I decided to take the baby home. The alley is notoriously busy with numerous undesirable activities and drunks and I felt it to be in the birds best interest to be taken away from probable harm on the floor. The baby is too large for me to trick my Pidge (I tried swapping out a fake egg for the squeaker - she didn't buy into it!) I've put the baby into a pet carrier with thick vet fleece bedding. Im hoping they will stay warm enough outside as I can't bring the little guy inside as I simply can't risk infecting my parrots with anything carried by a feral pigeon. *SIGH* For tonight I've just emergency fed about a teaspoon of warmed sweetcorn. I'm hoping to integrate this young'n into the flock once it's a little bigger.


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

How old is the baby? Defrosted peas would be better for him as they are more easily digested. How cold is it outside there?


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Baby is probably 2 weeks max? It's not terribly cold. I'm not sure on the exact temperature. But the vet fleece bedding is thick, and the carrier is in a sheltered area... I gave peas today as suggested. Thanks


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

:-(
Since bringing the baby back, it was bright and alert, but quite quiet. Only making a few peeps if disturbed. There were no typical 'feed me' squeaks or any accompanied wing twitches. When I got home from work, I found the baby slipping away, cold, weak, eyes almost shut. I felt awful and brought the baby in. I tried feeding but baby stopped swallowing. I've put them onto a heat pad. Im now worried as I may have brought a disease into the house that my parrots could catch. Im torn and don't know what to do...


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

The baby is just taking small breaths through its mouth. I did notice it has a small wart looking bump on the side of its beak. Any guesses what illness this bird may have so I can try to work out how to decontaminate the house :-s


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Sadly the little guy slipped away. Very sad about it, tormenting myself with - "if I'd left them in the alley, would they of survived?" I know that I'll never know, but that doesn't stop me feeling what I'm feeling.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

I've just ordered a bunch of F10 cleaning products, I am going to clean the room the baby was in and the adjoining room - plus quarantine my parrots away from those areas. At the moment I'm in a heightened state of panic, I'm thinking at least 8 weeks quarantine? Or should it be longer? 

What illnesses can pigeons carry, and how long can a virus or disease remain on a surface or in an environment?

PLEASE ADVISE


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## Jay3 (May 4, 2008)

I'm sure your birds will be fine. They didn't interact with the baby. He probably wasn't ill, but needing food and warmth when you found him. Maybe injured in a fall? Also, he probably needed more warmth, by being brought inside. He wasn't there long enough to spread anything even if he was ill.


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## Violet_Diva (Dec 12, 2016)

Thanks for the info Jay3.

Just for the record, what should I be treating my pigeons for on a regular basis? I have some spray for feather mites (as and when I see any) & I have calcivet for their water.

Should I be worming them regularly?

Should I be giving them anything else? 

Please advise - thankyou


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