# Update on pigeon with eye sore and mysteriousy dying pigeons



## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys I know it's been a couple of weeks since I've been on, but it's been busy trying to get these guys back to good health, and I am still not there. I had posted a pigeon with a swollen yucky eyelid at the beginning of January, and I have been writing for about 5 mos about my pigeons just dying, healthy birds with no symptoms, and then after about 3 mos of losing pigeons they had a few symptoms like the ceres on their eyes would turn red and within a week they would become listless within hours of that they would become partialy paralyzed and within minutes would die. I had 70 pigeons in 3 seperate houses. 1 house is about 500 ft. from the other 2 which are joined together. I now only have 40 pigeons. The 10 in the far off house have not been ill at all, but i have been treating them anyway. Each of the other 2 houses had 30 pigeons each, so i have basically lost an entire house of pigeons. I treated them for pnuemonia, flu, cholera, paratyphoid, e-coli, salmonella, coccidiosis. I have been scrubbing wateres, bowls, catch pens, power washing the houses in side and out. Just a number of things. I had a really hard time finding a vet, but I found one and he told me he thought thay had coryza. So the ones that were really ill I had to give shots of baytril in their breast muscle twice a day, and then put gentocin in their water for 4 days. The really sick one seemed to get worse the first day, amazingly better the 2nd day, I was so excited that we had caught this and was able to save him, he was already becoming paralyzed and knew he would die soon, and then when i went in on the third day to check him, he was dead. The other 2 who didnt seem terribly sick, survived but their ceres were still red, in about a day almost everyones ceres were red, the sickness seemed to progress much faster now, and i had another pigeon die. So I found another vet about an hour away and i took 2 sick pigeons and the pigeon with the eye to the new vet. After I made the appointment, I had talkted to another vet who said that it sounded like they had coccidiosis with complications from paratyphoid. Having treated for that before I thought I would keep my appointment and see what she said. The pigeon with the huge nasty sore on the eyelid, has a wart.....of all things, not all of the horrible pox etc etc, just a wart, with bacteria in it, she had no idea why it looked the way it did. And really had no idea what to do for it. They did all kinds of tests on the others and nothing came back conclusive, but thought with their symptoms they had ornothosis (chlamydia of the resp. tract.) with complications of sepsis in their blood. I almost cried at the vet when she told me because the treatment was baytril, which i had already been doing and hadnt helped, so i felt this was futile, plus i had to treat each pigeon indivually for 10 days orally (40 of them), and it is 4 days away from training which has to be done by Feb 20th and i cant train w/ sickness, stress, blah blah and fear of losing more to that so i had to postpone training and get an ear full from my bosses, I had already spent 5 mos daily trying to make them better and now was gonna have to do even more, and she told me that i had to be careful because it was contagious to humans and all my other birds (at home etc) I was pretty sure if thats what it was after 5mos i probably had it along with every other bird i ever came in contact with, because I had no idea. The stress just sent me over the edge in about 3min right in the vet office. After 7 days of treatment the birds did seem perkier but i had another dead one, so i just sent it off to the university for a necropsy to get the guessing game over with, so I thought. Yesterday was 10 days, I have another piji not doing so well and i got a preliminary report back. All normal testing came back negative, they dont have parasites or ornothisis, so either i cured it, or they didnt have it to start with and i had a meltdown for no reason. Heart fine, lungs a little congested, lower intestine slightly irritated, and the liver severly absessed. What would cause that I ask? Bacteria. What do you treat that with? Baytril!!!! Dear Lord, I have no idea what to do now, I have to wait till monday to find out the definate diagnosis, so for the weekend, they are on a probiotic, vitamins, and hope. I'll keep you guys posted!

Amber


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Amber, I am so sorry that you have been going through all this. Don't feel bad about breaking down about it. The stress you're under is horrific. I have never experienced the spread of a disease like you're going through so have no answer for you. You probably are doing this already but just make sure you use a fresh syringe and needle each time you inject, or orally dose, a bird to prevent cross contamination. I know that will just cause more work and expense for you but it may help.

Please keep us posted.

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Amber,

I am so sorry to hear about all the trouble you have been going thru. I'm sure it has been a major strain on you, as well as the birds..

You have to regroup now, and consider the facts.

You have learned an awful lot from this experience, and now are in a much better position to raise healthy pigeons.

Continue to isolate those that are not feeling 100%

Continue to give all your pigeons preventive measures, with Apple Cider Vinegar, Probiotics, & garlic capsules or clove cut up in the water. The probiotics will build up the gut bacteria that the Baytril has destroyed. Garlic is a powerful antibiotic and stimulates the immune system, the bird will benefit from this.

The birds with severe abscess of liver need 24/7 intensive care, lots of rest, no stress. I'm sure the doctor will recommend an antibiotic for that, so get your birds on the probiotics while they are not on them.

When pus accumulates in a particular part of the body (like the liver) due to infection. an abscess forms. 

Make sure the bird is on a varied diet that will supply vitamins,especially the B vitamins, as antibiotics destroy the B vitamins. 

*Supportive Care:*
Brewers yeast will provide the B vitamins, a drop of cod liver oil once a month in the seed will rpovide vitamin A, which strengthens cell walls and protects them from bacterial invasion. Vitamin E, from wheat germ oil, will help oxygenate tissues and improve circulation. Echinacea for three days will help build the immune system, as well the use of Goldenseal, on short term basis. 

Dandelion root tea is benefical for abscesses and can be made at half strength for the birds to drink.

I would give the birds with abscess liver a capsule of Reishi every other day, as it promotes a healthy liver. Because of its dramatic health effects on both the immune system and liver, it is the herb of choice. 

You can continue to use it once the abscess is gone for liver detox as well. 

If it was my birds, I would also give the bird milk thistle, turmeric, DHLA and Neem oil, for theraputic cleansing of the liver.


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

*Jaundice?*

I have had them on probiosis constantly while medicating. I was curious does anyone think pigeons get jaundice? I had that bird yesterday that was starting to get sick He wouldnt eat, just let all the pigeons push him around ansd wouldnt try to fly. I was sure he was going to die that night. i put him in the catch pen and set him in the sunlight. in about 30 min he sat up and started to pick at food. In an hour he was up and about with his head sticking out the top of the cage. I left him out there for about 4 hours. By then he had eaten 6 oz. of seed and was as good as new!!!! been good ever since. They have big windows and get plenty of light. I was just curious, since their ceres were turning colors and their livers were affected, and since lots of direct warm sunlight made him better, if they could get jaundice and if they could how?


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

i'm really sorry to hear this amber... 2 of my pigeons are sick also and someone told me to give them baytril and they would be goood ina week


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## armin369 (Jan 7, 2006)

Amber said:


> I have had them on probiosis constantly while medicating. I was curious does anyone think pigeons get jaundice? I had that bird yesterday that was starting to get sick He wouldnt eat, just let all the pigeons push him around ansd wouldnt try to fly. I was sure he was going to die that night. i put him in the catch pen and set him in the sunlight. in about 30 min he sat up and started to pick at food. In an hour he was up and about with his head sticking out the top of the cage. I left him out there for about 4 hours. By then he had eaten 6 oz. of seed and was as good as new!!!! been good ever since. They have big windows and get plenty of light. I was just curious, since their ceres were turning colors and their livers were affected, and since lots of direct warm sunlight made him better, if they could get jaundice and if they could how?


this illness could be from wetness in the loft or coop
this is how my pigeons got sick and sun is good vitamin for them and will make them feel better...it can also because there space is small and need fresh air...
but i dont know that much i'm just trying to help too lol


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber,


My gosh what a nightmare...

Anyway, 'Gentacin' and 'Gentamicin' will destroy their inner Ear for balance and co-ordination orientation, so, see if you can avoid useing it in the future.

Do some 'googles' on it if you like...

Otherwise, why so many Birds?

That is an aweful lot of Birds to manage even if they are all well...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hi Armin....Thanks for your reply....I always squegee (sp) the floor and allow it to completely dry before i replace with straw. Does anyone think it could be the straw? Over half of their house is windows with grates, so they always have fresh air and sunlight, but not just direct sunlight from above, it is odd though. Maybe I should take the straw out for a while....hmmmmmm


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hi Phil.......I came onto pigeons.com about 4yrs ago when I was hired to perform in a show. I ride horses, sing and dance, and I had previous vet/farm experience, so when the birds that perform in the show became ill and their caretaker got histoplasmosis I offered to care for them. My previous animal experience helped me alot and the pigeons got better, but i still didnt know much about them, so i started looking online and that is how i found pigeons.com. It has been sooooo helpful, and i too have been able to help others. Anyway, looking at it from a business point of view, the show was always losing money on the birds b/c they would die of illness and have to buy more plus the costs of upkeep. I took the pigeons made them better, started a breeding program, where we never have to buy pigeons ever again (as long as this illness gets out of my loft), and where I also sell enough pigeons where the pigeons pay for themselves. Their feed, new pigeons to add new blood for the flock, equipment etc. It has been hard convincing business men to spend money on pigeons that seem so replaceable, especially when we are talking about all these vet bills. But the pigeons themselves had earned the money for their own care, which the way i presented it to get them the recent vet care. This system has allowed for them to get great care that they deserve for their hardwork. I Love them, thats my motivation, they make me proud, they are all my babies. It's hard b/c of emotion, yet it's a job, so the finances and timelines sit on my shoulders as well, from people who dont understand and sometimes could care less. This is the long answer I guess, but 30 - 35 pigeons perform in the show, i have 10-14 breeders normally, then I like to have 10 young birds to train for the next year...I normally dont lose any birds even though they perform up to 5 times a day for 8mos, but just in case i must allow for old age and accidents, then pigeons to sell to keep the system going. That is why so many pigeons

Amber


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

What a nightmare, how could you not 'lose it" under the circumstances. I would take straw or anything out of the lofts which hold fungus/bacteria/or other problems. Just a good place for the nasties to hide. Also, in terms of loft cleaning, you might be interested in this thread:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13202&highlight=loft

Thought you might be interested in these articles as well:

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/stretopigeon.html

http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/Megabacteria.html

Even tho you used the 'big gun'--Baytril--it may not have reached the specific bacteria you are dealing with. If indeed a bacteria. But ruling out canker/coccidiosis/worms, then I'm thinking 1. bacteria or 2. fungus.
Also, are the vets you are currently working with familiar w/pigeons?

Regarding the liver, they can have liver problems, so why not jaundice?

I'm sorry for the heavy weight on your shoulders right now, and hope you can get to the bottom of this asap.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber,


Ahhhhhh...wow...

Aspergillosis can also be a serious problem associated with spores of certain molds which will seek dampness for propigating, so, as fp mentions, maybe no more 'straw'...

What are the roofs like for their quarters? or in other words, are these pigeon's houses surely dry and snug and airy yet with protection from draft, when it rains and so on?
Have they Concrete floors with good drainage?

Feed also of course, must be always safe from moisture for fear of molds or mildews which can make the Birds seriously ill...

I am so sorry you have lost so many, and to so difficult to identify of an illness.

I wonder if any of the Universities or Dept of Wildlife or Agriculture or as may be, or even some which might be near you, might have departments which would help determine what the agent or syndrome is?


Good luck...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber, 


See -

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13202

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13788


This might be of some use with your situation presently...

Best wishes!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,
I think she said the "Gentocin" was administered in the water. Now, that may be "Gentamicin" and it may be something else (have to google it). If it was Gentamicin administered through an oral means, you don't have to worry about about toxicity to the body because it's not absorbed from the gut. It's actually used to sterilize the gut like Bacitracin. You can do that before a surgery. You might do it during a severe enteritis to kill an acute intestinal overload of a bad bacteria. 

But you sure as heck wouldn't want to do it and leave the bird to redevelop its own intestinal flora and fauna again because goodness knows what may happen. That'd be the one undeniable time that you'd need to repopulate the gut with good avian probiotics. If I didn't have anything else, I'd tube-feed the whole lot a meal or two with Kaytee after something like that.

According to the book that I've got, Baytril does reduce the visible signs of Chlamydiosis but it doesn't reduce the carrier state. For that, you have to use the Tetracyclines, preferably Doxycycline. However, Chlamydia can hide down deep in certain cells in a dormant state and may return at some later time.

It's certainly not a good thing on the immune system to have experienced so many different medications in so little time but when you're fighting for life it sometimes comes to that. However, I think I would have sent a bird off for some viral tests. 

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, Amber,


Hmmmm...I did some fast look-see, found...

http://inchemsearch.ccohs.ca/inchem...Spec=charlie.ccohs.ca:9900&QueryText=gentocin


Gentocin, Genticin, Gentimicin and so on, appear to the same material/substance...


Anyhoo, I had seen some bad results with Birds years ago with Genticin, and I swore I would never use it again. Then, one day long after, I did some googles and found many references to it damaging inner Ear balance processes in all species of Creatures includeing people, on whom it is used.

So...whatever the particulars are which determine when it will or will not do this kind of damage, I do not know...


Love..!

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Phil,

Check the formulary section of the Big Book, pp 463-464.

Amber,

IM (IntraMuscular) use of Baytril may result in severe muscle necrosis at the site of injection. Baytril is better given to the bird in an oral form although it used to be that the injectable solution could be given orally.

Pidgey


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Pidgey, 


Originally, my experience with it, was with Vet given injection on two occasions for two different Mocking Birds...

Both Birds soon after became off balance and twisty-head...this never corrected...this was in 1984 and '85.

I just now did some looking for the references I previously found, but am not finding them now...which at any rate, made mention of damage occuring in Dogs, Cats, Birds, People and so on from this drug...damage of the same kind, to the inner Ear nerves which mediate information for balance sensations.

If others have used it with impunity, more power to them...!

But as for me, I would worry...

Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

When I was beekeeping we found that some diseases, bacteria etc just could not be controlled even after very thorough cleaning of hives and supers. Even bleaching and other harsh chemicals would not guarantee the hives could be used safely again without problems cropping up down the road. The most effective treatment for these hives (they are expensive, you don't just throw them out and buy more) was to scorch them with a torch. I am wondering if the problem is originating in your coops, the living environment of the birds. You may want to consider building new housing or trying a more radical approach to eliminate the source. Just be carefull not to burn the place down. Disease and illness can run rampant in closed quarters. With all the birds you have you may need to look carefully at how they are kept and consider the birds environment and try to stem the problem there.

Cameron


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## Happy (Dec 19, 2004)

Amber, I don't know what you have, but would place a small wager on Apergillosis or possible very bad Resperitory as Phil has already thought of. I've Raced Pigeons along time. If it were me with this big a problem, I'd get rid of the STRAW NOW that is probably carrying the problem. Spray with OXINE that Phil has given you the links for, . If you can't get a fogger for the Oxine, I would use a Vaporizer with the Oxine in it 3 tablespoon to gallon of water if possible in lofts. Then (Really 1st thing) I would put down "Non" scented Cat Litter (Walmart carrys it in Red bags, or Quick Sorb sold in Auto Parts stores like Pepboys) in loft for at least 2 months & sifft it every few days. It has a super drying effect & the litter alone Cured lofts that had unknown problems of this type. Don't worry if they eat the Cat Litter & they will, as it won't hurt, but help them. I am not a Vet nor medically trained, but can tell you this has saved many Pigeons. Don't ask me what the magic is in the non scented cat litter does, but it does the job....... You've tried the Big guns in Antibiotics, & the Baytril for such a long time that I think you can ruin the Liver & Immune system beyond repair.....! I personally don't EVER "YET" use Baytril, but never had this big a problem in my own lofts, but seen it in others!! If this doesn't sound realistic to you, just do it in one of the lofts & see!...... Happy


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi All,

I think Phil and Happy are onto something significant here .. dampness and fungus in the loft.

I would agree with Happy that cheap cat litter or the simple clay absorbant from places like Smart & Final would help. There is another product called Dry Stall that is used with horses, and it's wonderful for soaking up wetness. I rescue and rehab ducks, so I often have to soak up "stuff" .. I prefer Dry Stall, but if I can't afford it (I need about 300-400 pounds at a time) then I go with Absorbsol from Smart & Final or check the clay cat litter on sale at Petsmart (Petco too .. but forget that .. it's never cheap). I put it down in the pens, and the birds (ducks/geese) don't eat it, and it really helps.

Aspergillosis is a real possibilty, Amber.

Terry


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Amber said:


> Hi Armin....Thanks for your reply....I always squegee (sp) the floor and allow it to completely dry before i replace with straw. Does anyone think it could be the straw? Over half of their house is windows with grates, so they always have fresh air and sunlight, but not just direct sunlight from above, it is odd though. Maybe I should take the straw out for a while....hmmmmmm



You should give your pigeons garlic daily, it is a natural antifungal as well as antibiotic. straw should not be used around pigeons, as already mentioned.

What kind of floor do you have? You can scrape the floor and use a spray disinfect lightly after scraping, and then use this white powder, like Paloma as a dressing. If you have a plywood floor I would not wet it. The paloma dries all areas like cracks and crevices in the wood, and leaves a nice mild smell. Just spread it with a clean broom and it really does the trick. You can find it at Globals pigeon supplies, or find one comparable at any pigeons supply house.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

The most common bacteria that cause liver abscesses are Escherichia coli, klebsiella, enterococcus, staph and strep, and bacteroides.

Symptoms 

Fever, chills 
Nausea, vomiting 
Pain in right upper abdomen 
Loss of appetite 
Unintentional weight loss 
Weakness 
Yellow skin (jaundice) 
Chalk-colored stool 
Dark urine 

That is in humans anyways, but could also apply to all animals. I guess in birds/animals there might be more causes and the symptoms may vary.
A cutlure and sensitivity of the abscess would indicate what antibiotic is best to use.
Sadly the death rate even with antibiotic use can be pretty high.

Amber, this is a nightmare, I can understand what stress you are going through. I hope you can get to the bottom of this and have your birds treated.
I am so sorry for what you're going through.

Reti


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

I don't know exactly why straw is not good but it does re-hydrate quickly in damp environments or those with high humidity. The straws are hollow so perhaps that provides a good environment for bacteria and other problems to thrive. I have seen dried woodchips/shavings used successfully in chicken coops. Don't recall if they were Cedar or not but Cedar has natural resins in it that inhibit the growth of moss, mold, fungus etc. and the chickens certainly had no interest in eating it. It seems that there is a concensus amongst those posting that the environment could be the problem. I hope you can find the source of the outbreak. It must be heartbreaking for you to lose so many birds. 

Cameron

Cameron


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys, thanks for all your replys. In response, It was Gentocin that the vet had written on the tube, maybe it was the sort name for it, but i only gave it in the muscle to 3 birds for three days. When I got the Chlamydia diagnosis, the new vet said to put it in the water, but i always heard it was better to give it orally, and i didnt want to take a chance that someone wasnt getting medicated. I did that for 10 days which ended friday. So I dont think that it was given in the muscle repetively enough to cause any serious damage. 

I have had them on a probiotic the entire time I have been medicating with the baytril. I have given them breaks between medications, with vitamins and electrolytes.

I did send a bird off to the university for a necropsy, last tues. thats how i found out about how all the organs were, what they dont have, and that their livers were abcessed. The other 2 vets i had taken the to, 1 was a small animal with bird experience, the 2nd one was an exotic mainly birds. I am suppose to find out the final results tomorrow.

I am going to take out the straw. I clean it so much i dont think it has much time to hold bacteria, but no matter it is coming out. The houses are all brick top to bottom, with a concrete floor with a drain in the middle. The houses are built into/connected to an 8 million dollar building, so no chance i will be burning it down. I have that cat litter in my nests, so no prob to put it on the floor. Do you recommend that over nothing at all? I guess so considering all I read.

I went to feed last night and lost my last hand raised baby, she was 2yrs old, and super friendly. Friday she showed no symptoms at all, her ceres werent really red anymore, thought she was getting better.

Amber


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## Feather (Dec 8, 2005)

Amber,

This is a heavy burden! Are you doing this all by yourself. Gee, When I have had 8 special need birds, I feel overwhelmed. You are an inspiration for me to keep going no matter what. Sometimes I feel like I don't know where to start. Good Luck! This must have torn out half your heart.

Feather


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

About the straw, or any other material that fungus can hold onto and grow on,
it's hard to get rid of. Even when you don't see or smell, it's lurking and growing.

But I didn't realize that a vet had already given you a diagnosis of Chlamydia.
That would explain alot, and is a concern when eye problems occur. Please
read this link to a story by Joe Powers. This diagnosis is a reportable one. And the implications of having these birds involved w/public performances is mind boggling. I'm not saying this to scare you, but this is very serious as the link will explain.

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/articles/psittacosis_chlamydia.htm

Perhaps a second opinion to make sure the diagnosis is indeed correct is well
worth your while. The cleaning regimine that Joe went through to correct his loft is also something worth taking a look at. I hope that this is not the case for your birds, but it's best to be cautious and certain as you proceed.

Best,

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Another thought, Doxycycline is the drug of choice for this illness, I believe.
I'm sure others will be along to help here.

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Brick and cement eh. That is a whole different environment than the one I imagined. I thought you probably had wooden coops. There are thermal properties to masonry that are very different from wood. These materials tend to warm up very slowly and also cool down slowly, in some cases too slowly. As a result the material surface temperatures don't match the outdoor air temperature at any given time. The result is that condensation occurs and the environment will be damp a lot of the time. Musty smells, molds, mildews fungus and other spore related problems will result. If you have ever been in most people's basements, especially older homes you will know what I am talking about. You can often smell it. There are ways to treat masonry surfaces to stop growths but I don't know if the treatments are safe to use with birds. Usually, drying out the rooms is a must. Good air circulation, natural sunlight and warmth will slow their progress and eventually stop them. They can be difficult to treat though. Much has been written on the topic of health hazards to people in damp moldy environments. Hope this helps.

Cameron


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp - that was a scary report.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Maggie, yes, it is. And I'm very sorry for that. I think although, a good one.
Again, I'm sorry.

fp


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hi Amber,

I'm so sorry to hear you lost another youngster.

I don't know much about brick and cement, but if it gets wet and there is no sun, I'm sure it takes a wile to dry. Pigeons can handle a little dampness a few hours, but long term it is detrimental to their overall health, and lowers their immune system response. The ventilations is also an extremely important aspect of pigeon keeping. Pigeons need access to fresh air, to keep their lungs healthy.


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

fp - should have worded that as "great report but scary to read about how bad that disease is". My better half got really, really, sick about 1 1/2 years ago. Ran extremely high temp, became bed confined, dehydrated, etc. He is like a lot of people, wouldn't hear of going to doctor until I threatened him with ambulance. Spent entire afternoon at an urgent care with him getting heavy duty antibiotics and fluids because by then he was badly dehydrated. After about 4 hours he started getting better. We told the doc then about the pigeons so he added that info to the blood sample he sent off. Luckily it was not anything connected with the pijs but an unknown virus.

Two weeks ago same thing happened to him but condition not as severe. Turned out to be heavy duty kidney infection and he's just finished 10 days of antibiotics.

We always let our doctors know that we work with birds and our internist has that down in our official record.

Maggie


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

feralpigeon said:


> Another thought, Doxycycline is the drug of choice for this illness, I believe.
> I'm sure others will be along to help here.
> 
> fp



Hi fp,

I'm not an expert, but I have heard the racing people here use Aureomycin concentrate in conjunction with Tylan concentrate for Ornithosis. 

Part of the control of all respiratory disease is adequate ventilation without drafts, keeping dust and amonia levels low (keeping droppings from accumulating) and controlling dampness and overcrowding. When your birds are in contact with other birds, they do run the risk of developing respiratory disease. Using the drug of choice is extrememly important here, since inadequate drugs at inadequate levels can cause rapid resistance to medication. Quaranteening new birds is also a must!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Also, when I was having problems breathing, the doctor didn't believe it had anything to do with my pigeons, but I forced the issue, and sure enough after being tested, he was surprised at the diagnosis. Doctors need to know when you go in for something that you have pigeons, alot are not educated about bird diseases, and will waste time testing for other things if you let them.


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey Yall.......I have pictures of my loft, if someone can downsize them to put on here, i dont know how. I am sure their is plenty of fresh air, but if yall wanna see it, maybe their isnt. It would help eliminate that or confirm some problems.

The vet diagnosed Chlamydia, while she said there was no positive test she could do, (only at the university) and that the pigeons did not have all the symptoms, the did illustrate alot of them, so thats where we were going to go with it. When another died and i sent it to the university, the test for chlamydia came back negative. So either I treated it in 6 days (doubtful) of that wasnt it (pretty sure not, or at least not all of it).

Thank you feather for your support. I am doing it all, i usually can find one or 2 people willing to hold while I medicate, but the rest is up to me. And with having to clean 3 houses etc.... but whatever it takes. My whole life revolves around animals, so I am used to it....I sing, dance, ride at work care for and train the pigeons and chickens, plus have 2 horses to care for. At home I have 25 chickens, 4 ducks, 2 horses, 8 cats, 3 dogs, 3 rats, 1 snake, and a partridge in a pear tree somewhere.....oh yeah and a family...lol. anyway, They are my life, so I am used to hurt, injured, or sick and trying to balance it all, a written schedule helps. But the thought of 40 special needs pigeons on top of it all really sent me over, my husband it so supportive though. He'll even bury my work pigeons for me. Everytime I go into the houses I pray outside the door that their isnt anyone that has passed, they always to the door to die, as if they dont feel good and their looking for me to help them. It's almost like a dream every time.....I look foward to tomorrow, maybe for some definate answers.......
Amber


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Hi fp,
> 
> I'm not an expert, but I have heard the racing people here use Aureomycin concentrate in conjunction with Tylan concentrate for Ornithosis.
> 
> ....... Using the drug of choice is extrememly important here, since inadequate drugs at inadequate levels can cause rapid resistance to medication. Quaranteening new birds is also a must!


Hi Treesa,

Yup, no expert here either. I have read this in several places that Doxycycline is the drug of choice, and this could be due to the ease of administering when compared to others. Can't speak to that. Although the drug you speak of, Aureomycin I believe to be in the family. I've also read that Tylan is used as well. But most importantly, the point about the correct drug, appropriate dose amount and the length needed to get the job done would be critical. 

Another link:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4908a1.htm

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

If you go to Webshots, you can get a free account. Also, google Picasa2 and you can download the software for free and upload to your post.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Treating for Chlamydiosis is a long-term deal, too. You usually keep them on it (Doxycycline) for 45 days in such a case.

It should have been fairly simple in one of the necropsies to have done a splenic and other organ imprints and stained with Diff-Quik, Gimenez, Macchiavello's and Giemsa stains. When a bird dies of it, it shouldn't be that bad to diagnose it although I think we like doing the litmus paper type testing instead of the more labor-intensive tests anymore.

Pidgey


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

The test for chlamydiosis came back negative. I Lost 2 more today, had 8 more not interested in eating. Suppose to get really cold tonight, possible snow, not looking good. Will let you know what the university says.


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

How much apple cider vinegar should I use and garlic capsules, to how much water?


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## Pikachu23739 (Jan 6, 2006)

Amber said:


> Hey guys I know it's been a couple of weeks since I've been on, but it's been busy trying to get these guys back to good health, and I am still not there. I had posted a pigeon with a swollen yucky eyelid at the beginning of January, and I have been writing for about 5 mos about my pigeons just dying, healthy birds with no symptoms, and then after about 3 mos of losing pigeons they had a few symptoms like the ceres on their eyes would turn red and within a week they would become listless within hours of that they would become partialy paralyzed and within minutes would die. I had 70 pigeons in 3 seperate houses. 1 house is about 500 ft. from the other 2 which are joined together. I now only have 40 pigeons. The 10 in the far off house have not been ill at all, but i have been treating them anyway. Each of the other 2 houses had 30 pigeons each, so i have basically lost an entire house of pigeons. I treated them for pnuemonia, flu, cholera, paratyphoid, e-coli, salmonella, coccidiosis. I have been scrubbing wateres, bowls, catch pens, power washing the houses in side and out. Just a number of things. I had a really hard time finding a vet, but I found one and he told me he thought thay had coryza. So the ones that were really ill I had to give shots of baytril in their breast muscle twice a day, and then put gentocin in their water for 4 days. The really sick one seemed to get worse the first day, amazingly better the 2nd day, I was so excited that we had caught this and was able to save him, he was already becoming paralyzed and knew he would die soon, and then when i went in on the third day to check him, he was dead. The other 2 who didnt seem terribly sick, survived but their ceres were still red, in about a day almost everyones ceres were red, the sickness seemed to progress much faster now, and i had another pigeon die. So I found another vet about an hour away and i took 2 sick pigeons and the pigeon with the eye to the new vet. After I made the appointment, I had talkted to another vet who said that it sounded like they had coccidiosis with complications from paratyphoid. Having treated for that before I thought I would keep my appointment and see what she said. The pigeon with the huge nasty sore on the eyelid, has a wart.....of all things, not all of the horrible pox etc etc, just a wart, with bacteria in it, she had no idea why it looked the way it did. And really had no idea what to do for it. They did all kinds of tests on the others and nothing came back conclusive, but thought with their symptoms they had ornothosis (chlamydia of the resp. tract.) with complications of sepsis in their blood. I almost cried at the vet when she told me because the treatment was baytril, which i had already been doing and hadnt helped, so i felt this was futile, plus i had to treat each pigeon indivually for 10 days orally (40 of them), and it is 4 days away from training which has to be done by Feb 20th and i cant train w/ sickness, stress, blah blah and fear of losing more to that so i had to postpone training and get an ear full from my bosses, I had already spent 5 mos daily trying to make them better and now was gonna have to do even more, and she told me that i had to be careful because it was contagious to humans and all my other birds (at home etc) I was pretty sure if thats what it was after 5mos i probably had it along with every other bird i ever came in contact with, because I had no idea. The stress just sent me over the edge in about 3min right in the vet office. After 7 days of treatment the birds did seem perkier but i had another dead one, so i just sent it off to the university for a necropsy to get the guessing game over with, so I thought. Yesterday was 10 days, I have another piji not doing so well and i got a preliminary report back. All normal testing came back negative, they dont have parasites or ornothisis, so either i cured it, or they didnt have it to start with and i had a meltdown for no reason. Heart fine, lungs a little congested, lower intestine slightly irritated, and the liver severly absessed. What would cause that I ask? Bacteria. What do you treat that with? Baytril!!!! Dear Lord, I have no idea what to do now, I have to wait till monday to find out the definate diagnosis, so for the weekend, they are on a probiotic, vitamins, and hope. I'll keep you guys posted!
> 
> Amber


www.freewebs.com/westiofengland/ visit my website if you are bored


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber, 

My own preference for remedial concerns, is one and one half Tablespoons of Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, to a Gallon of Water for their drinking Water.

I have used this with success treating Candida, and, I have not yet seen a Pigeon young or old find it distasteful at that concentration.

I understand it to also eliminate or reduce Campylobacter and a wide range of other sometimes opportunistic or impetuous micro-organisms which can get out of hand when a Bird is weakened or compromised from some other illness, trauma or privation.

Too, it is suppopsed to be good for them in general...and for non remedial occasions, likely one Tablespoon to the Gallon is fine.

Now, does anyone recall anything about those strains of the Herpes Virus, which can sometimes effect Pigeons even to where it causes their demise?

If this is not Chlamydia, or if the Chlamydia is in this situation a secondary opportunistic interloper, then there may well be some primary organism or Virus or Nutrition related syndrome which is elusive, but which as itself, or in combination with others, is causing the symptoms you have been seeing.

Certainly for now, healthful non-specific regimens, such as the ACV Water, ensureing sanitary and dry conditions and fresh Air...warmth if possible for the afflicted, disinfecting Nest Boxes, Shelves and floors via bleach, blow-torch or as may be...or trying the Oxy-stuff one mists for them to not only breathe, but for it to also disinfect the abodes...looking closely at the feed for any hints of must, smelling it carefully in the bags, and chewing it yourself to assay the taste...avoiding 'Peanuts' for the time being, or examining closely, any you had previously been feeding them...

Can you describe again, the nares/wattles, and their becomeing 'red' and so on?

Their Eyes?

Throats?

Mannerisms?

Or briefly, in retrospect, describe again the symptoms you have observed...the color and texture and so on of their poops, and the Bird's appearances in whatever detail you recall?



Phil
Las Vegas


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Trees Gray said:


> Also, when I was having problems breathing, the doctor didn't believe it had anything to do with my pigeons, but I forced the issue, and sure enough after being tested, he was surprised at the diagnosis. Doctors need to know when you go in for something that you have pigeons, alot are not educated about bird diseases, and will waste time testing for other things if you let them.



Hi Tressa, 


What was the diagnosis?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys, up for work this morn, did not sleep AT ALL!!!!! Worried about pijis and weather, Im afraid im gonna go in and find more dead. I thought there was a handle on it but then to lose 3 in 24 hrs isnt a handle at all. I feel like that many at once that this is reaching the end and it maybe too late for everyone.

Phil, originally they had no symptoms, just died. They were about 10-12yrs old, so i thought it was old age. Then it became the younger ones. The symptoms have varied in different birds. Some just appear to die, not light, no parasites, feather, eyes all seem normal. Others there ceres turn pink and right before they die or right after they die their ceres turn a red color. Some have had no pink, then they become listless, then cant move hardly at all, sort of dragging themselves, then start wheezing and die in minutes, some have had no wheezing before death, others have had the pink ceres even deep red and show no other symptoms before death. I believe the cere turning red has to do with the liver and some sort of sepsis, as we have been saying a bacteria and it is in their bloodstream.
There wattles are fine, throat a little mucousy, the preliminary from the Univ. said there was lung congestion, but only a little, and that their lower intestine is slightly irritated. As for mannerism, there was the dragging/paralysis right before death. They have seemed a little sluggish and fluffed but it is also winter, they do seem perkier after the Baytril though. The 2 that died yesterday acted completely normal on sat., so when it happens it happens quick. By the time i see the signs, other than the eyes, its going to happen soon. 1 that died yesterday is the one that i was asking about jaundice b/c i put him in the sun, and he got remarkably better, but yucky weather this weekend so no sun. When i seperated him to put him in the sun he pooped immediatly and it was completely normal. Some have been a little greener and softer. But his was the greenish brown w/ a little white and solid. The three that died this weekend, their ceres werent even as red as past birds had been. Makes me wonder that they were getting better, but they are just fighting too many factors. I was laying in bed stressing about the birds and the weather and that if i leave their curtains down then the ventilation wont be as good and I'm picturing like swarming bacteria, but if i leave it open then the wind might pick up, a draft, wetness, darned if ya do or dont.
Today is the day of removing straw, bleaching, adding cat litter, removing grit, and talking to the vet.
I was going to use Aureomyacin(sp)/sulmate today, can i use ACV with it? I will be checking this at work today, so post if you can.

Amber


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Curious too what you were sick with Treesa and symptoms. I have been sick for a while, i mention the pigeons but the doctors kinda blow it off

Amber


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Tressa,
> What was the diagnosis?
> Phil



That was 4 years ago, I was diagnosed with "pigeon Lung". They actually sent a piece of tissue to a lab. 

My breathing was very shallow, couldn't catch my breath, and I coughed alot. But I had to convince the doctor to do the test for it. It was during the time when I spent an hour everyday cleaning the coop, and I was raising two babies, Skye and Sonica, inside my house.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

Far as I know, the natural remedies such as garlic and Raw Apple Cider Vinegar
(with the 'Mother' in it) may be used w/drug therapy, but if you are treating via water, that's where the conflict would be if you are also giving the meds in the water. The ACV creates an acidic environment that the good flora likes to multiply/thrive in, helping these organisms to populate the 'gut'. The bad bacteria likes more of an alkaline environment and therefore doesn't multiply. By having an environment where the good bacteria is thriving, the system itself is harder to penetrate by 'unfriendly' organisms of many kinds.
According to Gordon Chalmers, it's not how much, more that the environment is acidic, he recommends 1 TBLS per gallon. 

The grit is the main thing to worry about when giving drugs especially of the 
Tetracycline family. There is a grit, I believe through Global's that is called Sharp Gravel which you could use instead of the mineral grit to aid w/digestion.

The fellow in the article that I posted the link for said that he had a blood test, being the more reliable mode of the testing. Maybe you could get some peace of mind by asking for this if they don't outright suggest it. 

On the Aureomyacin Sulmate, what is the strength, modality and length of treatment that you are planning?

fp


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

*cleaning loft*

okay...I am at work at it is about 35 degrees out, so i cant powerwash. Can I spray the loft with alcohol, to kill the bacteria, and just give it all day to evaporate befor ei put the pigeons back, getting ready to call the vet and find out diagnosis, someone reply soon please about alcohol, trying to help the best i can as soon as possible, no dead pijis this morn but they are super cold, we had a drastic temp drop


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

The aureomycin Sulmet instructions from foys says 1 tsp/gal for 5-7 days


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I would rather wash the loft with bleach, diluted. Alcohol emits too much vapors.
Reti


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Amber,

I searched the bleach/water mix here, it's 10% bleach w/90% water according to Turkey. If someone has other info, please post.

The med, do you know the concentration of it?

fp


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

it dosnt say the med concentration on the bag. Houses are clean of straw, bleached and powerwashed. They are drying as we speak, i went and bought cat litter, ACV, vitamin B, and garlic capsules, and the piji's are basking in the sun. I still have no news from the university. If i know nothing I was going to go ahead with the Aureomycin/Sulmet or use the ACV/probiotic/Garlic/Vitamin B. Or should i do a combo of some of the above?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Amber said:


> it dosnt say the med concentration on the bag. Houses are clean of straw, bleached and powerwashed. They are drying as we speak, i went and bought cat litter, ACV, vitamin B, and garlic capsules, and the piji's are basking in the sun. I still have no news from the university. If i know nothing I was going to go ahead with the Aureomycin/Sulmet or use the ACV/probiotic/Garlic/Vitamin B. Or should i do a combo of some of the above?




Hi Amber,

Thank you for your great concern and time spent for your pigeons. It will pay off, once all issues are addressed.

I would wait for diagnosis, as you want to treat with drug of choice.

What kind of Vitamin B did you buy?

You can do the following at the same time:

Is the probiotics powder or capsule? If powder you can sprinkle over the seed, with a little tiny bit of wheat germ oil to get it to stick to the seed.

You can give the soft gel garlic capsules, one to each bird every day, unless the bird has an upset stomach, but that is not a problem usually.

Meanwhile, put the ACV in the water, at the recommended dosage.

Do your birds have a source of heat?


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hi Treesa,

No the piji's do not have a heat source, other than right now i put them out in the sun. I had a really bad incident once with artificial heat, so i no longer use it.

I bought liquid vitamin B......i think it is B12. Can i put the garlic softgels in the water with the ACV? and the B12? How much should i put per gal, i know 1tblsp for the acv, i didnt buy wheat germ oil but the probiotic is a powder.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I bought liquid vitamin B......i think it is B12. Can i put the garlic softgels in the water with the ACV? and the B12? How much should i put per gal, i know 1tblsp for the acv, i didnt buy wheat germ oil but the probiotic is a powder.[/QUOTE]

Vitamin B12 won't harm them but it's benefits are limited, plus they are not well absorbed by the GI tract. A vitamin B complex is what we use, it has all B vitamins.
You can put the garlic and ACV in the water, but make sure, watch them if they drink it. It might alter the taste too much. I prefer to give my birds one day of ACV-1tablesp./gallon of water and the next day I give them the garlic.
Then the next day you can give the probiotics. The acidity in the ACV could actually kill some of the bacteria in the probiotics, so I would give it alone.
You can give the probiotics and the vitamins together.

As for antibiotics, I would not give them anything until you have a diagnosis.


Reti


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

*Still no answer*

The frustration continues......I just heard back from the vet, it is taking so long because, after 6 days the university still has no idea. She said today the pathologist was concerned b/c the piji had was vitamin D deficient, and if i had an outdoor pen for them, i told her the house was outside, but light shines through the sides not on top. Plus, they have been housed their for 10yrs, and never had a problem. I would imagine that this time of year they maybe deficient b/c of poor weather, i close their curtains and use artificial light, but anyday above freezing i open the curtains for fresh air, ventilation and sunlight. Then they were concerned about not getting grit, but i use mineralized grit and oystershell. The pathologists main concern for a disease is paramoxy(sp), i've seen it spelled dont remember it though. They have tried to culture and grow salmonella etc, to no avail. So really still have no idea. I did put vitamins,acv, and some other goodies in their water tonight and they spent 6hours outside in direct sunlight, which insured for good and thirsty birds. The vet did sound concerned about the birds eating the litter and causing impaction? any thoughts? I will get the pics of my houses on here. Thanks guys!
Amber


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Amber said:


> Hi Treesa,
> 
> No the piji's do not have a heat source, other than right now i put them out in the sun. I had a really bad incident once with artificial heat, so i no longer use it.
> 
> Can i put the garlic softgels in the water with the ACV? and the B12?


I usually get the Brewers yeast as a source of the B Complex vitamins, you can buy it at the pigeon supply houses, mix with probiotic powder and get it to stick to the seed with a tiny bit of wheat germ oil.

The ACV should be put in the water by itself, and the garlic capsules should be given down their throat manually, one per day. That is probably a lot of work having that many pigeons but it seems to be a good medicinal dose for your sick birds. You can actually put the garlic clove twice a week in the water for your healthy birds, on altering days, when you aren't using the ACV.


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

okay i made an album at webshots but how do i post the link on here?


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Just supply us with the website link and your user name, like mine just below your name.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ your user name


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

http://community.webshots.com/user/AmberAnneP

Okay, here are some pics of the outside of the houses, and then some of my special pigeon Clay, he is the first one i trained to fly to my hand from about 300ft away, there is one of him landing on my hand as the angel in a nativity scene at work

Amber


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Hi Amber,

The birds may take a peck or two at the litter but unless they are deficient in some mineral that might be contained in the litter they will quickly figure out that it isn't edible. That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep a close eye on them possibly ingesting the litter, but it's highly unlikely. 

I use clay litter or Dry Stall often to keep the duck pens dry and reasonably decent smelling and rarely have a need to use it for any pigeon enclosure. It was just a suggestion for a quick way to soak up any moisture that might be causing problems where your birds are housed. If I can dry out a big duck pen in a matter of hours with litter or Dry Stall, then it shouldn't take too long to clear up any moisture problem in the housing for your pigeons.

Terry


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

sorry, the pics of the house is to show proper ventilation or if you think their might be any other problems with the loft


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber,



The mention of Vitamine 'D' deficiency might be pretty important.

Too, they may be deficient in Vitamine 'A' also.


Direct Sunlight is necessary for all Birds, and those who do not obtain enough of it are liable to have problems, or compromised immune functions leading to elusive or amb iguous problems or vague confuseing syndromes.

Is there any way for them to get direct Sunshine? Aside from being out flying?


Now, Vitamine 'A" can be had for them easily in the form of matted thin Sea Weed sold in Oriental Markets. I just shred it up with my fingers and either sprinkle it on the floor or add it thusly to their Seeds.

As others mentioned above, Brewer's Yeast powder ( any health food store) can also be added to their Seeds by lightly glistening the Seeds with Olive Oil, Wheat Germ Oil ( only if a new bottle, for either) or Cod Liver Oil for that matter, itself a source of Vitamine 'A' as well as other important fats and oils.

I would lean toward useing the Cod Liver Oil I think in your situation, and to augment their Seeds with Brewer's Yeast and shredded Sea Weed. The Sea Weed shreds do not need to be tiny, so if an inch or two long, that is fine, they will eat them easily, as it is thin.


This does not at all sound like PPMV to me...nor anything kindred to it, symptom wise.

But it might be a Virus of some other kind, with incidental secondary bacteriological or other opportunists making 'Red Herrings' as for principle 'cause'. 



If it is a Virus, then, as primary opportunistic agent, so far as I know, the regimen would best be one of as much direct outdoor Sunshine as possible, the best Nutrition and Nutritional augmentation useing carefully elected 'Natural' ingredients ( rather than isolates or hi-potency concentrates) such as the Sea Weeds, Brewer's Yeast powder, Cod Liver Oil, Goji Berries if they will eat them ( any health Food Store) or you could make the semi-dried Goji Berries into a powder useing a Food Processor or Blender and add that also to their Seeds so it sticks...as well as to provide them whole fresh dark Leafy Greens, such as whole Kales, Mustard Greens, Endive, Chards...and see if they will eat them by pecking off little bites.

Chlorella powder also might be a very good thing to add to their Cod Liver Oil glistened Seeds. it is dark Green and looks funny, but my various Birds to not skip a beat pecking when I make such 'mixes' for them.

Diets containing too much Protean also make for slow cumulative compromises and problems, especially of Birds obliged to spend time not flying and able to be chooseing their own feral or wild diets to augment their domestic repasts.

All it takes is one Pigeon to start pecking and eating a Head of Kale, and the others will begin to take an interest also, and they will soon have 'pecking parties' as they gather 'round the Kale and just go through the whole thing, tearing off bits and fliipping them over their heads and so on, till it is gone..

Well, this is my best thought on this anyway - to provie them the best nutrition and immune system support, and to let their own possibly hitherto inadvertantly deficient systems, do the rest.

Certainly, if continued tests reveal specific threatening organisms or illnesses to be present, then by all means to treat those with the best appropriate meds for them.

Do note as ( sorry I forgot who and I am too lazy to go searching for it ) someone kindly mentioned above, if useing Batryl or Cipro ( and maybe some others too) with-hold any kind of Calcium containing Grit, and instead, use a Quartz or Granite Grit with no Calcium or other additives. Lest it compete and interfere with the chemistry of the medicines.



Otherwise, this may be something of a Will o' the Whisps being sought, when the true underlieing cause could be the larger ambiguous syndrome of liability and compromise resulting from insufficient direct Sunlight, and insufficient ( true proper diet, in the form of) fresh Greens and bitter Herbs browsed as per their appetites for it, in addition to their ( of course ) retinue of varied Seeds...

And too, no matter what agents Bacteria-wise or illness-wise, the examinations post-mortem or other may decide, the regimin above would still stand as the best praxis against against them, or to ultimately ammend to some high degree.

That and of course dry living conditions, free of drafts or side winds...

The most beautiful and well made formal structures for Pigeons have seldom accomidated their needs for direct infiltered Sunlight, or for them to brouse wild or other leafy Herbs and Greens of their own intuitive choosing, so, maybe, some 'open' yet coverable somehow when needed, of wire mesh merely, and non-glazed 'Skylights' might be a thought, unless you can let them fly free near every day...to spend their Days outside, and their Nights in their formal Home.


And, to either have easily moved Pots in which Kales and other 'bitter' Greens and Herbs may be grown, or a local Green Grocer from whom to get them, to put these in there for the Birds to graze and browse on...every week or so if not more often.

Best wishes...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Glad to hear you power washed and bleached the coops. With luck this may get to the source of the problem if it is environmental. I can't comment on the coops themselves as I am no expert in that area but others are and will have something to say. As I said before though masonry structures can promote molds, fungus etc if they are damp and air flow is poor or where a heat source absent. Hope all goes well for you. 

Cameron


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

The house looks solid, well kept, the birds are beautiful. I am thinking that you want to work w/what you have. Down the road you might think of some remodel that could bring in some direct sunlight like a sun roof, as long as they have areas to be in there to get out of the sunlight if they choose. It's just hard to really say from pictures. Let your intuition guide you on that w/some research when you have the time, seems like you have your hands full right now.

I think it might be good to get some kind of a heat source in there for the really cold times, there is also an insulation that can be blown into walls so that it's not a big fuss. Some thing about the cold I think concerns you, so you might want to try to address that in some way, that, however it backfired before, couldn't happen again.

Some folks use full spectrum lighting for pigeons who are predominantly indoors, and D3 is required for indoor pigeons. So, read the labels and make sure it is stated specifically.

If the birds are on anti-biotics, then don't give them Brewers Yeast, this could be problematic. I'm thinking that they are getting a pigeon seed mix specifically for pigeons from somewhere locally? Hopefully the supplier rotates stock and stores the mix properly. Some members have found newly purchased bags to smell of mildew, that's something to keep an eye on.

Everything seems in order, although we know that something is wrong, just what the problem exactly is, if indeed just one problem, is the question. So narrowing things down till you grapple it into your sights and can finally target whatever is at the bottom of this difficult situation is all you can really do. Again, I'm very sorry you are having these difficulties and hope that some of the tests that are being done will yield some results so that you can 
have some piece of mind.

fp


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

A conventional Home-type or Commercial ( usually, out here anyway, these are 220 Volt Electric) 'Heat Pump' as are a ubiquity in most Western cities anymore, could be adapted readily as a fixture set into one of the windows aperatures, or just outside of it on a stand, to produce Warm Air ( with a thermostat if one wished,) for the interior of such a Structure-enclosure-building, that is, if one did not elect to mount it on the Roof proper as is usually done...and to run ducts and registers.

This alleviates any concerns of other more casual means of Heat, and is mostly just a matter of initial expense for the Unit itself, and, for the Labor and expertise to install and wire it and fit sme Ducts for the air to be drawn in, warmed, and expelled into the room...

Just-a-thought...

Good reminder fp, on the 'No Brewer's Yeast powder if the Birds are on antibiotics'...

Too, some related to eachother products I like very much but are hard to get now, which are understood to be compatable with anything and quite useful against endless things, is 'Berimax' or 'Citromed'.

Lastly, the ACV-Water is likely a good idea for them, as a daily drinking Water thing.


Now, what have they for their drinking pans or Bowls? I mean, what are they made of?

And, what is the source of their Water for drinking? 

Usualy City 'tap' Water? Local or immediate property Well Water? Purified Water? Or...?


Phil
Las Vegas


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Phil, on the Berimax and Citromed, don't want to send members on a wild goose chase. I initially posted the link to these products. While I have them and like them, there is a problem w/the supplier to the extent that it's impossible to find a US supplier anymore, and the the fellow who developed the product doesn't return emails. PigeonNetwork has told me through emails that when current supplies are gone--that's it. And they have no more Berimax. The fellow I corresponded with @ PigeonNetwork suggested GSE (Grapefruit Seed Extract) as a replacement for the Citromed. Said it was the same thing and available thru pij supply houses and health food stores for less money. The Berimax can most likely be replaced with Goldenseal products made for pigeons, GEM products has one called Trikanox. This would be a combination of Goldenseal, Garlic and Echinacea.

Again, no US supplier, you'd have to go to Everything For Pets for it:

http://www.everythingforpets.com/gem_trikanox.pet/use.id.5.item_id.413.dept.134

Seems the ACV and garlic are overlapping with these other products anyway.

Regarding heat, one of the facilities I worked for, had heaters that they were afraid residents might touch and hurt themselves on. They fabricated a safety shield of angle iron and rigid diamond mesh @ a welding shop which sat over the heaters and could be bolted to the floor leaving ample space between the heating source and the 'shield'. Maybe something like that might work. I believe some of the supply houses have some heating solutions as well.

fp


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Amber, this is just my gut feeling with nothing to back it up but I believe it is a combination of poor ventilation and not enough sunlight. That may cause bacteria to just grow and grow. What I saw in the pictures were solid walls and covered windows. If you could add open wire aviaries to the coops it should give them both. 

I don't know the temps in MO but it gets pretty cold here in NC and we don't provide any additional warmth to the aviaries. If they are well feathered most will do fine as long as you keep them out of a draft. Ours don't have an enclosed coop, just open aviary that we enclose in heavy duty plastic during the winter. We make 4 large doors that can be opened during the day depending on which way the wind blows and they are opened in such a way to prevent a draft.

You are a very pretty lady. Love the costumes. I just don't know how you are coping with all this but know that you are in my prayers during this ordeal.

Maggie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Good points, Maggie, about adding the wire aviary to the building. What are the extreme cold temps in Montana, anyway? 

fp


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys, those windows that you see the birds through is wiring, those arent solid windows, its just thicker wire not covered with plexi glass or anything, then i drop curtains to keep draft out during bad weather. so I thought it would be too much ventilation/ drafty. Anyway, i think the only issue with it is that they do not get direct sunlight from above, and the house is on the north side of the building, so it is kinda shaded. Work said they would build me another house that was in a better spot out of public view with an aviary, so thats good. The bad news is I dont have enough pigeons for the show now, and they are demnading me buy more pigeons. Even though I explained what a poor decision that was, health wise and financially. I hope i find out soon what is wrong that way i can treat everyone. Maybe the new house can be done before the new birds get here. That would be excellent. Have to go. Be back later.

Amber


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

I think Mo is Missouri. Just assumed Amber does a show at one of the Branson theaters. I hope so cause that is a wonderful way to get it across to lots of theater goers about how wonderful pigeons are.

Maggie

I think Missouri may get a little colder than NC but boy Montana gets really cold.


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Lady Tarheel said:


> I think Mo is Missouri. Just assumed Amber does a show at one of the Branson theaters. I hope so cause that is a wonderful way to get it across to lots of theater goers about how wonderful pigeons are.
> 
> Maggie
> 
> I think Missouri may get a little colder than NC but boy Montana gets really cold.


Duhh, Maggie....a little geographically impaired here, lol. OK, scrap the heat stuff....

RosannaDanna


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Sorry i didnt get to touch base on everything earlier. I am in Branson, Mo. We are performing at Dolly Parton's Dixie Stampede. My 4th house is going to be 20 x 8 w/ a 10 x 8 house on it. Exciting. have pijis out in sun again, everyone alive today. The weather here is cold. zero occasionally maybe a few time s a year, not yet though, 15 has been the coldest, normal lately has been 40-60's during day 20's - 40's at night. I am originally from N.C./Va. and it is a bit chillier w/ more ice and snow. Terry, were you suggesting not to use cat litter on a regular basis? kinda sounded like it. what should i use once this is cleared up on the floors of the houses?

My bad incident w/ heat source is that the elctricity went out b/c one the pigeons tried to perch on it and bent the direction of the heat, to a wooden beam, it started to smolder and tripped a breaker. 10 pigeons died between smoke inhalation and drop in temp. I prefer that they feather out and dont take any chances like that again. They have all done well the past 3 yrs without any alternate heat source and in these houses.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Amber said:


> Terry, were you suggesting not to use cat litter on a regular basis? kinda sounded like it. what should i use once this is cleared up on the floors of the houses?


Hi Amber,

If the birds are eating any of the litter, I don't see a problem with continuing to use it to help keep things dry. There should be some threads here on Pigeon-Talk about the various types of flooring people use .. everything from wood, wire, sand, shavings, to pavers and bare ground. 

I'm thinking you might want to consider making some type of raised wire flooring for the enclosures with a catch pan underneath that could be easily cleaned out. This would keep the birds up and away from any moisture on the floor of the enclosure. 

Terry


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## mr squeaks (Apr 14, 2005)

Lovebirds built their own loft. Maybe they have some good suggestions....


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys, well no luck. The university tested the pigeon over a week and could not really find anything wrong to cause all the deaths in the flock. They said they didnt get what they needed form that specimen and that if another dies to send it. But that one obviously died from something, he was only a yr old. Frustrating!!!!!!! So today i started treating for coccidiosis. Noone has died since sunday, and all the vitamins etc i put in helped solidify alot of stool. Thanks guys! I'll keep you posted

Amber


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Amber, that is so frustrating. I am so sorry you didn't get an answer.
I am very happy though that you had no more deaths in your flock.
Not finding anything on specimens could indicate you have/had something viral going on. Viruses are tough to isolate unless you know specifically what you're looking for and you test for each virus separately, which is almost impossible. It could also be that now the virus has run it's course and you see improvent in your bird's health. I hope that is the case and things settle back to normal again.
I wouldn't give them any antibiotics for now, just supportive care and natural treatments. 

Hope your birds will only improve healthwise from now on.

Reti


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Amber, 


Reti, this is my lingering suspicion also, that some or more than one Virus is the culprit, with any number of welling secondary opportunistic agencies possibly horning in on the spoils whilst also making red-herrings of themselves if they are detected...

Hence, possibly, the best remedial regimen might be non-specific; 

As much direct Sunlight as possible...

Their food to include more Naturel sources of important Vitamines and Minerals of the kind they would find for themselves if forraging and grazing in the wilds. Foods and suppliments such as fresh Kales, Endives, Chards...
Dried thin Sea Weeds...

Suppliments such as ACV-Water...Garlic in one form or another...Cold processed Cod Liver Oil or Olive Oil used to lightly glisten the Seeds so that powdered suppliments will stick to them...these could even include pro-biotics, digestive enzymes, Chlorella...

Dry interior conditions...

Sunstantial Heat or Warmth of some kind for that interior, not only for the Bird's sundry comforts and energy conservation, but also to help dry out the interior itself...

Dis-infecting the interior with say, 'Oxine AH'...

Having the Birds excercise as close to what would be normal for the Wild or feral Pigeons, of daily flying and so on, if possible, to stimulate their systems generally. A Dedantary Bird is not going to have as strong an immune system as one who is vigorously active.

This is my appreciation with what I have been given to understand from the descriptions so far anyway...this is my conjecture for outlineing the 'cure' which is being sought.

I do not believe the matter will be ameliorated with strictly a medical regimen, and, the tests as you point out will not tend to reveal those possible and probable Viruses which may be the primary active culprit here, allowing a diminshed immune system to loose ground in the potential assertions of any number of secondary bacteriological or other opportunists which can be found in the tests.


Good luck Amber!

I know you will get it licked...!


Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

After all that, did they ever tell you what all tests they ran? I, myself, would love to have copies of all the stuff they've done to me.

Pidgey


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Amber,

Sorry to hear you couldn't get a diagnosis that could put your mind at rest. Perhaps the worst is behind you now. It does sound like things may be looking up since last Sunday though. You must be run ragged with all you have been doing but just hang in there Amber and things will surely get better with time and all your efforts.

Cameron


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey guys, I'll feel better in a week or 2. That will be when it has been the longest without a death. I am worried it was 50 today, and suppose to be 16 tonight. Everybody was very interested in eating so today was a good day. The tests that i know they ran were coccidiosis, chlamydia (all respiratory diseases were ruled out, vitamin/ mineral deficiencies, salmonella, e-coli, etc. Oh well! we shall see how it goes!

Thanks again!

Amber


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber, 

How very frustrating that the tests didn't provide any clues. I know you must be relieved that the birds are maintaining in the meantime, which is also a great
sign. Pidgey does have a good point, it might be worth your while to get a print out of what tests were done w/what method. Ya never know.

Have you tried collecting a vial of 'group poop' and having a fecal done? That might also be helpful. Do the birds ever have contact w/direct soil in either of the buildings? 

I guess it's a glass half empty/half full regarding the tests.

fp


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## Camrron (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi Amber,

I realize you are probably really stressed about your birds but can you update us on what is happening. Have things improved at all. Hopefully all is going well for you and the situation is improving. Just wanted you to know I care and am concerned and would like to know if things have progessed in a positive way.

Cameron


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## Amber (Nov 17, 2002)

*All is well........*

Camrron,
Thank you for your interest and concern. So far it has been 1 week since I have lost anybody. I am still holding my breath, but it is good so far. I started the Aureomycin/Sulmate treatment on weds. They have 2 days left on that. It has been around 15 at night 30's in the day and everyone is surviving. So I am hopeful, that we are stopping what is going on. Sorry I havent written, rehearsals started on friday. So i have the pigeons plus the rest of my job, I am now being pressured to begin training the pigeons, the show opens march 3rd. I told them they needed more time. I had to order new pigeons. They are being shipped tomorrow. They started woring on the new aviary, but i dont think it will be done by the time the new guys get here. I guess I will have to put all my sick birds together and scrub the houses again. All the factors are a bit stressful, but i am sure it will all work out for the best. The good thing is, with the new birds i will get to add new birds to my flock, there is 20 of them, they are 6wks old.

I'll keep yall posted, probably on a new thread, i know this one is so long. Thank all of you again for your help, support, and time, I appreciate it so much!!!!!!!!!!


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hi Amber,

That's good news with your birds, hopefully you'll be blessed w/continued good news. I'm sure you are pressured w/the employment aspect of the situation, but remember that it is best to quarantine new birds for a few weeks before allowing to join the other pigeons in the loft. So many stories here about folks who get birds from breeders and allow in w/the rest of their birds, only to find that the bird is a carrier for Paratyphoid or whatever else. Best wishes for your continued improvements with your birds.

fp


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so glad all is well. Hope, whatever it was it's gone.

Reti


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## pigeonkid1046 (Nov 16, 2005)

I know this is a little late to be telling you this, but........I'd really recomend getting rid of the straw. That is probably the cause to this sickness. Straw/hay absorbs moisture and is a breeding ground for bacteria. And if a piece of grain falls down on the floor, it gets contaminated, hence, sick bird. I would reccomend having sand/ground-up corn cob, or just bare floor. If you use bare floor, scrap daily and disinfect weekly. For a disenfectant, I'd reccomend Novalasan. Don't have to remove birds, can use in drinking water, spray all around loft and works great. Anything is better then straw. Only use it for nest areas. I use ground up corn cob, and sift it every week. Your loft won't smell. Your birds will be much healthier without the straw. Also, don't over medicate your birds, that can make them sick also. Probios is good when medicating. Hope this helps.


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