# Any suggestions for a pigeons mom..(that would be me)



## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi all

I help out on a farm. Long story short the farmer needed his silo and went to clean it out to discover a great many pigeon eggs, baby pigeons of all ages..too many dead pigeons etc. He needs the silo for his cows, so he permitted me to "rescue" what I could before it was scraped out...there was a huge mess of rotted corn that looks more like molassas in there.
Well I was able to take four baby pigeons of various ages, they are doing wonderful...and a bunch of eggs.

So far three hatched, two already died and one is hanging in there. I have been doing everything I know to do. I have been feeding it around the clock every 2-3 hours with Kaytee exact...it is under a heat lamp, I did not feed any the first day....
Here is my question, I am told that in nature the parents make a "milk" in their throat...it has their special saliva to help digest the "milk". My baby is five days old now, and her crop is not emptying...I am told its called crop stop or sour crop. There seems to be some blood in it now...after we tried suck it out with a syringe...directions from a rehab specialist. Does anyone here have any advice for me? I have many more eggs to go and my heart is aching having lost two babies. I am so excited that this baby has lived for five days..but now am really concerned about it.

Thanks in advance...and btw, what an awesome board here! Wish I knew of it before!

~Mandy~


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Welcome, Mandy and thank you for doing your best to try and save all these babies. There are medications for sour crop, but I don't think we have time to try and go that route right now. You can make up some baking soda (SODA not powder) water and syringe about 3-5 cc's (or less depending upon the size of the baby and how full the crop is) to each baby with a sour crop. Don't feed them until until the crop has emptied. If the crops haven't emptied in the next 4-6 hours, please let us know. Make the soda water about 1 teaspoon of soda to 1 cup of water.

If the crops still don't empty, then we'll take another step to deal with that .. that step is a risk of aspiration, but perhaps safer than trying to "suck" out the contents with a syringe. If the bleeding persists, please post back right away. 

Make sure you are mixing the Kaytee fairly thin .. more thin than the directions say when you start up feeding again. How much are you feeding each time? 
You need to also be keeping the babies very warm via a heating pad or heat lamp. If they are getting too cold, then crop stasis will definitely set in.

The babies don't need to be feed 24/7 .. daylight to dark will be fine .. they gotta sleep, and so do you.

Kindly let us know where you are located. Perhaps we have a member nearby who could assist you.


Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ty the bleeding stopped I think it was a scratch from the tubing. I gave her the baking soda mix and now all I can do is wait awhile right? she is 6 days old and she was getting 1-2 ccs every 2-3 hrs and I wasnt feeding at night except water. she has been under a brooder light snd I keep it between 80-95 I live in Mansfeild Missouri ty again for the help
MAndie


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## Pigeonpal2002 (Jul 27, 2002)

Hi Mandie, 

You do not have to administer any water either to the young chicks. They will get all the water they need from the formula itself. 

Here are a couple of links from our forum to get you on track:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9918

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9682


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Mandy and welcome to the forum.

We rehab pigeons and had a similar situation last spring when a house was being renovated and a large number of squabs and eggs were removed and brought to us. I am having problems doing links to threads but you can find my thread under "Be careful what you wish for". 

Brad's links are valuable. We don't tube feed (scares me silly) but use a syringe with a Catec nipple attached. The nipple is long enough to go down pretty far. One of the things we did was follow Nooti's advice and use yogurt and alternated with a probiotic called Benebac.

Personally, if it were me, I would leave off feeding the baby for several hours, maybe 6, to allow the crop to go down. Instead, give it about 1 cc of tepid distilled water with about 1/2 cc of yogurt during this time - about every 2 hours. During the first few days we raised the newborns, we gave them about 1-2 cc of watered down Exact and about 1/2 cc of yogurt, every 2 - 3 hours. The consistency is much like pancake mix, maybe a little thinner. After about a week, we gradually made it thicker. You can also very, very, gently massage the crop to allow the formula to break up. 

You don't have to give them extra water or feed them at night unless the baby is really frail. We fed ours their last meal at around 10:00 p.m and started back around 6:00 am. We had 1 out of this large group that we did feed at least once during the night. Warmth is crucial. 

I hope your baby does make it. They are very frail at that age.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hello all

This is Mandy's Mom. The beautiful lil one didn't pull through, its very hard as the two that didn't make it before didn't live this long. I wish to thank you with all my heart for your swift replies so packed with kindness and information. We are praying that other eggs will hatch, we just don't know and watch as days go by. Mandy did candle them and has them in the order they should hatch in her incubator. One bird managed to hatch, peck of enough shell to see its head and foot, but then died while still attached to its yolk. The other lived a couple days. Wow this is an amazing event to be so blessed to partake in! We were out of town when Mandy got the birds and the eggs, and we are extremely proud of her. Since being a little girl she has a natural attraction to all animals, and they seem to sense it and most animals simply come sit with her in the wild. She dreams of opening her own wildlife rehab center after she graduates. We are going to research all this site has to offer. As the rehab people she did find had no information regarding wild pigeons. Wish we had found this site sooner! Do any of you offer phone help? I have a baby goat that came real ill and a lady on a goat forum gave me her number to call anytime to walk me through those days in which you need a friend who knows what they are talking about? Preferably a woman (no offense to males, but our daughter is only 17)
Again with all my heart thank you. 

Mandy's mom


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thank you Mandy and Mandy's mom for your dedication and hard work to save the eggs and babies.
I am so sorry the little ones didn't make it. I hope you have better luck with the rest of the eggs.

Since you mentioned that where the babies and eggs were found there were also dead birds, could it be that there was some disease going on among the birds?
Was there any obvious reason for their demise? Where any babies among the dead birds?

In any case you can call me whenever you need help, my # is 305-374-3525.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

Hello and thank you for trying to help these babies and eggs. We appreciate all your time and care.

I would also suggest you check all the links posted and become educated on the feeding methods and formulas provided.

Also there may be a moisture problem with the incubation which can cause the babies to stick to the shell and die, so you might read the following thread about incubation:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=4968

This will make it easier on yourself, your daughter, and then you can always get answers to anything you are unsure about via phone, etc.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

TY Reti I will be calling you. 
I will go into more details of the conditions I rescued the babies from. 
THey were in a corn Silo that had been abandoned for some time. THe birds are entering through a hatch in the top. I climbed the ladder and went down the hatch upon my feet hitiing the ground I discoverd I was walking in a Mallassas like substance. Next as my eyes adjusted to the darkness I saw tons I mean a carpet of dead pigeons. Then I found the babies enad eggs. Their nests were dead pigeons. It was so sick. I gathered them all up. Their were two babies almost completly feathered except under their wings. Two babies that are needing constant attention they have a lil less feathers. One has a crooked beak and the other was being eaten alive my the adult pigeons. I can see his skull and his back is riped open. I didnt expect him to live thus far but I gave him my all. I have been using Iodine, triple antibiodic/silver cream on her wounds. I am still feeding the hurt two. The older more feathered two have stipped eating formua and are eating seeds and grits. The other two are much younger they are minimally feathered and I feed them 3 times a day with Kaytee formula. 

mandie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi Mandie,
it was nice talking to you. You are doing a great job and seems you have all the right equipment on hand.
Here is the link to the pigeon supply house:

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/

Best of luck with the new little one. I hope all goes well.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

lol Reti you beat me to it! What is the medicine called again? o and the new lil one is still hatching!


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, I am very sorry the baby died. Under the conditions you described I wouldn't be surprised if there is not a lot of disease going on in that silo.

I would like to mention though that we do have several male members who are very experienced in sick and injured pigeons such as the scalping wound you described. Just to mention a couple of names - "Pidgey" and "Jazaroo". I have a great deal of confidence in them and would trust them. As well as many of the "ladies" on the forum they work selflessly to save any bird they come in contact with. Of course, you can't beat Reti as a mentor. 

With the conditions like you describe, it may not be a bad idea to give each bird (tho not the babies) an antibiotic such as Baytril, followed by a course of probiotics. Later, they would need to be wormed also.

Please let us know how things go.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

It will take him a bit to get out of the egg. I guess hatching is pretty hard work 

The medicine is Nystatin.
If you go to "catalog", then "sour crop medicines" you should find it there.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok I take it back there are two hatching!!!!!!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Maggie has a good point, that was my thought too, the conditions these poor birds were living in were very unhygienic.
As for the poor chewed up bird, that could have also been done by rats and rats can spread paratyphoid.
Baytril is a good antibiotic and would work for paratyphoid and E.coli and a whole lot of other ailments.
I don't think you mentioned you have Baytril, but you can find it at Foys.

Maggie, thank you (blush)

Reti


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## pigeonmama (Jan 9, 2005)

Mandie and her mom,
The men on this site have been gentlemen. I can't think of any one who would cause harm to Mandie.
It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job, and should be proud of any successes you have. Any one here will tell you how nearly impossibly hard it is to raise a pigeon ,from egg to adulthood.
Daryl


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I am going to call some local vets to see if they have the meds b/c it will be quicker and maybe cheaper. I would ot mind some advice form males lol My mom just wanted my mentor to be a girl lol!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Naturesgift said:


> ok I take it back there are two hatching!!!!!!


OMG, how exciting. Let us know how it goes, please.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

nothing yet. I have to go to work but my mom will be watching them. I have to wait till tomorrow to get a hold of me bird specialist in a town nearby she isnt open wed so I will call hr again tomorrow


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## maryjane (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow, I just saw this post and you are amazing, Mandie! (Is it Mandie or Mandy? It is spelled both ways by you and your mom ). It must have been very hard to go into that silo and find the babies, thank you so much. It is hard to raise babies and for the ones that aren't able to make it, please try not to feel too bad. It's a very tricky business! Hopefully you will have great luck with the ones hatching now. Please feel free to reassure your mom that the guys on here are just great and totally on the up-and-up (now they're blushing ), and of course so are the girls.  Anything you need to know, someone will try to help you with. So keep us updated and I'm wishing you all the luck!!


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

little bird said:


> Dear Mandy's Mom,
> I would like to invite you to read the thread in the "sick or injured pigeon discussions"
> Help!!With An Injured Dove!! by AZfiddler_1996
> Anyone reading that complete thread could never doubt the decency of the male members of Pigeon-talk involved in that rescue and yes!! alica was a 16 year old girl when she asked for help.
> ...


Here it is:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=14833


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Well, that's an awfully looooooooonnngg read and there's a ton of that case that was done by phone, email and PM (Private Message). If you're going to invest some time, here're a couple of more relevant threads to your bird that got "scalped" by the others (they're about the same Nicobar):

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12941

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=13139

It's always hard to say how one of those is going to heal depending on the extent of the damage. Sometimes, it's all one mass of small wounds that eventually heal and then feather regrowth is possible. And, sometimes, it's so bad that there aren't any feather follicles left undamaged enough to regrow feathers. In either case, it's a matter of keeping it from getting infected which isn't too hard because pigeons usually don't have much of a problem with skin infections. It's awfully nice to have something called a "hydroactive dressing" which can come in sheets (kinda' like skin--it can even be sutured down) or a gel which has to be smeared on.

However, sometimes it's enough to keep them on prophylactic (preventative) medications while they're healing into a scab which eventually heals from underneath. I'm telling you this so that you'll think objectively about this one and have a framework to do it with. If you read that thread (and others like it--use the keyword "scalped" in the site search engine), it'll help a lot because, I think, it had an awful lot of discourse on that kind of injury.

As to meds, it would be really nice if you could get some "Trimethoprim/Sulfa" from your vet because that's safe for nestlings in the event that your littlest ones (bones not full grown) have a problem. That medication also goes by many other names including "Bactrim" and comes in various combinations. You might need to get dosing information from the forum here or your vet for that. Sometimes we have to get creative in dosing because the patients are so small and require such tiny amounts that cutting the stuff gets fun.

Baytril (Enrofloxacin; the veterinary version of Ciprofloxacin) should not be used if at all possible on nestlings whose bones are not fully developed. It will stunt their growth and do other weird stuff. It can save their life in a pinch, but there is a price to pay.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Pidgey, you're right about the Baytril on nestlings. I meant the other ones that had come out of the silo - thought some of them were about grown.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi all,

I have a question. Seeing as we are "under the weather" so to speak...we are under a huge storm, we might be snowed in by morning...two tornadoes passed by us not too far away...its been pouring and now its freezing rain......
It doesn't look like we could get out for awhile.

I have medicated chick starter left over from when we received new chicks..that has meds in it to prevent against ecoli. Could we give some of that to the older baby pigeons? They are eating wild bird seed now.

Thanks,
Mandy's Mom, Tam


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi again...I forgot to add to the last post:

PS...it's almost 1am, still waiting here, can still hear the chicks pecking...waiting patiently 
PPS...Please understand I am a protective Mom, I pray I haven't offended any gentlemen here! On a different forum when my daughter asked for advice for her dog, a not to gentle man told her the best way to keep her dog warm would be to do the nicest thing for it and shoot it in the head  Since then I have been a very watchful. Thanks for understanding. Mandy's name is Mandy...she just prefers Mandie as her pen name  

Tam


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

The chick starter should be OK until you can go back to "regular" pigeon food. The wild bird seed is fine. Medicated chick starter for ducklings is a problem because they (ducklings) tend to gorge themselves and get overloaded with the medication which was intended to be ingested at the level of a chicken chick. I think you'll be fine with the chick starter as long as the pigeons don't go overboard with it. You could also feed them unpopped popcorn (not the microwave type), oatmeal flakes, crushed cereal such as Cheerios, Corn/Bran flakes (not sugar coated), sesame seed, whole grain bread .. they're not going to starve even if you get snowed or otherwise weathered in as long as you have any of these things to feed them.

I do understand your concern for your daughter. All our gentlemen here who are regulars are truly gentlemen. I can't vouch for an occasional visitor, I can for our regulars.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

We have babies!!!! One hatched well I was at work this morning my mom got pics and one is hatching now I am recording the progress for you. 












Mandie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Wow! What a tiny little one! Best of luck with this one and all the other little ones that may come your way!

Terry


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, congratulations. There is nothing sweeter than a newborn baby pigeon.

Be sure to go a little light on the first 2-3 days of feeding them. Try about 2 cc per every 2 hours until around 10 pm tonite and make sure they are kept warm. You are fortunate to have two because they can cuddle together. If I didn't mention it before, we use something like a cool whip or margarine container that is filled with tissues up to about 2/3 of the container. Put the babies in this and you can cover them with a single tissue to help keep in the warmth. Change the tissues frequently because they will poop a lot. Any dampness they lay on can cause them to be cold.

I hope you can find a probiotic such as Benebac or the plain yogurt to add to the formula. It makes a big difference. About .15 cc (very small amount) of yogurt added to the formula each time you feed them. You will not need to give them any extra water. If you use something like the Benebac, it comes with a spoon and I just added that spoonful to the formula. I gave ours yogurt at every feeding but one and that time I would use the Benebac.
If you have a scale that weighs in grams it is helpful to weigh them each day.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Lady Tarheel said:


> Mandie, congratulations. There is nothing sweeter than a newborn baby pigeon.
> 
> Be sure to go a little light on the first 2-3 days of feeding them. Try about 2 cc per every 2 hours until around 10 pm tonite and make sure they are kept warm. You are fortunate to have two because they can cuddle together. If I didn't mention it before, we use something like a cool whip or margarine container that is filled with tissues up to about 2/3 of the container. Put the babies in this and you can cover them with a single tissue to help keep in the warmth. Change the tissues frequently because they will poop a lot. Any dampness they lay on can cause them to be cold.
> 
> ...


ok I am really confused! I was told not feed them within the first 24 hours! should I leave them in the incubator in a cool whip container or under my brooder light? I cannot get to any town anytime soon we now have snow! I do however have probios (probiodics for sheep/goats) I will look into getting yogurt but as I said we have had horribe weather since yesterday. I think I may have a scale. Meanwhile the other chick has hatched ! sooo cute .. I will post them and more videos later

Mandie


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, I have also heard not to feed them for the first 24 hours but all that we have raised were fed probably within a couple of hours after hatching. But, it is a small amount. In one of the links I sent you, one of our moderators, Nooti, said to feed them only yogurt the first day which is probably not a bad idea but we started ours off with Exact. I would have used only yogurt the first day but we had a problem finding the plain yogurt in small containers and wound up having to get the pint sized container but with all the babies we had it was used quickly.

As to the heat. I use a heating pad. I have absolutely no experience with brooder lights so I can't speak to that method. I imagine it is fine so long as it doesn't get too hot on them. Could you post a picture of the setup with the brooder light?

We also use probios for our grown pigeons, 1 tbsp per gallon, so I wouldn't think it would hurt to use the probiotic water as the liquid for the formula but you can probably reduce it down to pint size. The liquid will need to be warm but you need to be careful if you heat it in the microwave because you run the risk of crop burns by doing that. Also, I don't know if heating it in the microwave would kill the good bacteria that is in it. I run the hot water from the faucet until it gets hot and add it to the Exact then add either the yogurt or benebac powder. By the time you mix the formula well it has cooled enough to use.

We all have different methods so you're going to have to weigh what you're told with whatever you have on hand. I can only say what works best for us and we have around 14 pigeons in our aviary now that were newborn last spring and they are fat and sassy now.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I think 24 hours is a bit too much.
I've seen ferals, and recently my new baby Geronimo being fed the same day.
I raised only one baby from day one and I fed her in about 6 hours.

Reti


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## Skyeking (Jan 17, 2003)

The parents will usually feed the an hour or two after hatching, but it is very tiny amounts.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

My brooder was a cardboard box with a heat lamp over it b/c I was told it was best so you could just throw away the box (if it got dirty) and replace it. In the box I had towls down for bedding. But if I go that way again I will need a new box. I have also been told a old fish tank works I still have them in the bator b/c its covered and in this weather i would hate for them to catch a draft. should I put a glass/plastic bowl with a towl and tissue in the bator for them?


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

(((as a nest)))


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

A cozy nest would be nice. Make sure you have towels they lay on so they have traction with their feet. Smooth surfaces can cause splayed legs.
Did you fed them yet?

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

yes I fed them. ok It is ok I am leaving them in the bator right? its just less drafty right now. being as its covered. I have them in a bowl with ripped up paper napkins for grip (the bowl is to keep them from bumping the other eggs) 
mandie


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## Whitefeather (Sep 2, 2002)

Naturesgift said:


> yes I fed them. ok It is ok I am leaving them in the bator right? its just less drafty right now. being as its covered. *I have them in a bowl with ripped up paper napkins for grip* (the bowl is to keep them from bumping the other eggs)
> mandie


Hi Mandie,
I would suggest, as Reti did, putting something like a wash cloth, etc. in the bowl. They can actually grip on to that, where the torn paper napkins might be a bit slippery & their little legs could slide out from under them. 

Cindy


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

How are the babies doing?
Hope everything is alright with them.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

they are doing good I will post the videos of the hatching of the second egg! I thickened their food today I was a lil worried but they are still emptying their crops. I am still only feedinf them 1/2 cc evey 1-2 hours because I tried 3/4 of a cc yesterday and it took them 6 hours to empty their crops and I nearly bugged out. but they are ok now I am just watching them carefully. They are still in the Bator .. it is kept at 100 is this ok. All the older pigeons are doing great the scalped ones but is alomost healed. and the head is looking bettter and better. And the most exiting news is two more eggs are hatching! I will let you know how it goes. !!! Reta I will be in touch with you should something go wrong and I dont have access to the pc. THanks all

Mandie


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the update, Mandie.
I think 98-100 is ok.
How exciting that you have more babies hatching.
You can call me if you have any questions.

Looking fw to the video.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok I was wrong three are hatching


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

two have hatched so far. The first hatched pigeon (the one from a few days ago) was doing great today. Then I took a shower came back to feed them and her crop was filled with air. she died shortly after. (when I came back she was on her back. The other older baby is still eaten and doing good. the two new ones crops are also full of air so I am waiting to feed them till around three. The other egg is still pecking away. I am really conscerned I do not want to loose any more chicks... A lady on a rehabber forum said it could be they may not be properly digesting because of a missing enzyme from their moms/dads spit. she said it may help to get an adult pigeon and transfer the spit so I have .. but I hate that it seems like they are doing great and then they just pass for no reason. Should I be worried about the air in the newly hatched chicks crops? 
mandie


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

There are pigeons on here who have been raised from day one with nothing but Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula, "The Dinkster" being one of them. They usually don't die that fast. You can tell a lot, though, based on how they're gaining weight. If they're not gaining much (at that age, size is about the same thing) then it's a bad sign. Early in my days of this stuff, we tried to raise a newly hatched chick (it wasn't by choice) and he didn't make it. Peeped like mad for several days and then passed away, just like that. That was before we learned about Kaytee, though. Fortunately for us, we haven't had to raise any from the egg although we've had to take over within the first three days plenty of times.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Mandie, I am so sorry the baby died. I don't know why this happens, it seems like you are doing everything right.
The enzymes are necessary for growth, but as Pidgey mentioned, many of us have raised babies and they made it. 
Are you feeding them Kaytee Exact? I think it does contain some digestive enzymes.
The air in the crop shouldn't kill them, at least not right away. Something is going on and we need some ideas here on how to fix it.
How do you feed them, with a syringe or tube?

Reti


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Splayed legs*

I had my first two baby pigeons in a stainless steel mixing bowl (shaped like a soup bowl) with several layers of cotton wash cloths and microfiber wash cloths beneath them (changed frequently), and the bowl on a towel, to insulate it from a heating pad beneath. They had a steady source of warmth from that. I also had a halogen desk lamp with variable-setting dimmer switch for overhead warmth. I monitored the heat frequently. They had been rescued at 5-8 days of age from a large flowerpot a neighbor had removed from a balcony and set on the street, the chilly last day of April 2004 in Cologne, Germany. A passerby was waiting for someone to remove the chicks so she could take the pot. I took the pot to another neighbor's nearby roof-top terrace, hoping the parents might locate their chicks fifty yards away, but the chicks were mute and night was setting, so I took them in, not wanting to chance hypothermia. Several solitary, naked baby sparrows had died in my care over the previous ten years. (No internet resources). 

*One of the babies still developed a splayed leg*. This was while I was just starting up with Pigeon Talk, on a slow dial-up connection at a two-hour twice-a-week senior citizen internet cafe at a local community center. (One of the chicks,* Chocolate*, died from I suspect sour crop on the thirteenth day after rescue). When I finally realized what Vanilla (later renamed Birdiepoo by my wife Hilde, and finally Pidgiepoo) had was a splayed leg, it was about two weeks too late to correct it (even though I did bind him for a tortuous evening, without good results). *Pidgiepoo* grew into a handsome male pigeon, with an out-turned left foot and a lower, partially squatting walk.

Someone else, somewhere, suggested having egg-sized rocks in nests with solitary chicks, for the chicks to push against. The rocks could even act as a heat sink, holding warmth and evening out small fluctuations in ambient temperatures. 

I often used a larger pot of microwaved water or a large pot of water boiled on the stove as a means of re-warming food dispensed in smaller containers, which tend to cool quickly. _(I also kept the pots lidded, to prevent a hot, gruesome death for a rambunctious chick)._ I always checked any food by dropping some of it on my inner wrist as a way to check the temperature before feeding. My wife and I got used to using the cut-off finger of a latex kitchen dishwashing or cleaning glove as a "mouth" for the chicks to stick their beaks in. It was messy and always necessitated a bath, from which the chicks would flee, and a very careful drying with an electric hand-held hairdryer set on low, with a hand and fingers always between the apparatus and the chick, monitoring the temp and draft. I think there are better ways, but it was what we had and became used to. Later I bought a large syringe and removed the end and tried to put a cover over the improvised opening, but didn't have the patience to learn to use it successfully. Some swear by baby formula bottle nipples, and I think these are good from what I have read. 

Apologies if any of this info is redundant or superfluous.

Best of luck,

Larry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I feed Kaytee exact..I tube them and I am very carefull to remove any air pockets. Both new babies are still full of air in their crops what do we do!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

*Young Birds Dying in the Nest Early*

I found this online. Dr. Marx is a pigeon vet.

"This breeding season I have recieved about 10 consultations concerning youngsters dying at an average of 2 days of age.

There are many reasons for young to die in the nest. The obvious ones of being trampled, chilled, etc. occur only occasionally. 

Trichomonas can overwhelm a squab but this is not epidemic in most cases. When it occurs in extraordinary numbers, it is usually symptomatic of a septicemic (bodywide, being spread via the blood stream) infection caused by bacteria. 

The infection can be started before hatching, the egg being contaminated before being laid or through bacteria penetrating the shell (this usually when conditions are damp and fecal contamination present. Most often it happens immediately after hatching.

A correlation which I have just figured out is the use of nest pads. Nest pads have been the common denominator in all the cases that I have been involved with this season. 

Granted, nest pads are commonly used with good results, but for some reason I believe that they become a good place for bacteria to increase in numbers. These bacteria serve to infect the babies as they hatch, probably invading through the umbilicus before it dries. 

All babies are exposed to some bacteria, as they are never in very aseptic condition at hatching. I takes an infective dose of bacteria to begin an infection, the numbers depending on many variables.

The more bacteria that are present, the easier it is for them to infect. If nest pads are used (either commercial varieties or homemade from carpet,etc.), they should be disinfected and dried thouroughly before use, and should be replaced just before the babies hatch to discourage this from happening.

This is recommended for lofts having this problem. For those who use them with no problems, it may be something to consider. A Clorox soulution, or Nolvasan solution can be used to disinfect, but remember to wash away as much organic material before soaking. Soaking time of an hour or so should be adequate. They should be thouroughly dry and aired before reuse.

It is possible that I am making an inaccurate assumption, but I feel it is my duty to share what I suspect to hopefully help as many fanciers prevent problems.

In cases where no pads are used, it is still wise to change nest material with each new clutch and just before eggs hatch.Culturing a fresh dead baby may also help understand this syndrome.

Babies dying early on occurs occasionally but when this becomes epidemic, nest pads should be at the top of the rule-out list."



Dr. David E. Marx D.V.M.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Mandie,

Did you try the baking soda water or obtain some Nystatin for the possibly slow crop problem? I read that the crops =are= emptying, but something is causing an air or gas build up in the crop. Can you very, very gently try to press the air up and out of the crop via the beak? If the crops aren't empty, this can be dangerous as any crop contents could go into the trachea and aspirate the baby.

Terry


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## Larry_Cologne (Jul 6, 2004)

*Air and air sacs in the crops*

Mandie, 

*I SEE THAT TERRY and RETI have posted in the time since you posted, while I was typing my post, but I will throw it in anyway.*

I have no experience with air in the crops of baby chicks, so I am talkng off the top of my head, so to speak, and will step down and aside for the experts, or stand still to be corrected, but ...

I don't see a big problem with some air in the crop.

I dissected a couple of unsuccessfull pigeon rescues (adults or juveniles) last month. The crop is essentially a temporary storage place for seeds and grains. It is like a balloon made from thin latex, with two openings. One opening attaches at the mouth or throat, behind or lower than the tongue with its opening for the esophagus or windpipe. The other opening is where the crop empties into the proventriculus, a tube leading to the gizzard. The crop is outside the rib cage, outside the thoracic cavity. I cannot state precisely where the crop technically ends and the proventriculus begins, but I would think the boundary is where the food passes into the upper rib cage.

The neck has the muscular spinal column (cervical vertebrae), with the esophagus attached to it but free to stretch and move laterally when the neck is rotated or twisted or retracted into an S-shape. The neck also has the crop hanging from the mouth and jaw, and sagging when food is in it. The food soaks up moisture and is softened so it doesn't snag or tear mucosal membranes when it passes into the proventriculus. The food may be also partially digested by enzymes and saliva while in the crop. 

I have figured, but not yet read this anywhere, that the crop also acts like an air-filled bagpipe when the male pigeon traps air in it and does his roo-coo. My males *Pidgiepoo* and *Wieteke* had enormous bulging throats that dragged the ground and appeared almost as large as the rest of their bodies when they puffed up and roo-coo-ed and strutted for the females. All that air had to be stored somewhere. 

My Dad informed me that he had heard somewhere that the sexiness of a male pigeon was demonstrated by his sound, more than his appearance. A scraggly fellow with a full sound was more desirable than a squeaker. (No offense, Mr. Squeaks. Just what I was told). I figured a throaty pigeon rumble had less to do with the Harley-Davidson motorcycle he may or may not own, than with the fact that it indicated he was used to eating large meals, could access find and keep large quantities of food, which seemed promising when one considered he had to feed two growing youngsters along with himself during the last weeks befoe they weaned, since his mate might be using her nutritional resources and energies producing eggs and sitting long hours on the nest instead of foraging for food. I watched Wieteke slosh a lot of seeds into two robust and demanding youngsters while his mate Mamieke concerned herself with the next set of offspring, twice. 

When WOULD I WORRY about air in the crop? 

(1) If the air or gas expanded more rapidly than it could escape (that is, if the opening at the mouth were blocked in any way). 

(2) If the crop thereby became taut to the point of threatening to split and empty contents into the space between the crop and the skin of the neck. 

(3) If the air (gas) were produced by an abnormal process, such as rotting food or some chemical reaction of sorts. I can't imagne any such likely scenario where this would happen. Perhaps if the bird ate the wrong food, or too much food and the gas could not escape. I think poisoning would be more of a threat than too much gas. 

I do not own any books on pigeons, yet. Pidgey and others do. Perhaps all the questions with their answers are covered in these books. When they get on-line they will help you.

Larry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

the babies are not even a day old. They havent eaten yet b/c I wasnt sure what to do about the air. as of right now they both look like lil frogs ready to croak. TAWhatly I am willing to try anything. would it be better to try and expell it with a tube like you would a goat when thay have bloat? I really dont want to mess this up and lose them.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I would first try to gently masage their crops, see if the air comes out.
If it doesn't work, we'll see what other members have to say, you might have to try the tube.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The only thing that's coming to my mind is that I've seen a lot of chicks that have alternately had slightly puffy crops that I thought had a lot of air or water in them but they'd eat and everything worked out okay. I will say though that I have an incubator and have had the best luck with the thermostat set at 90 degrees F and them sitting in a towel inside with part of the towel over them. I've always left a small hole open so that they wouldn't get too hot so I'm thinking that while they're sitting in the middle of 90 degree stuff, they're really only surrounded by air in the 80s. You might give that some thought and see if works out better for them.

Pidgey


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok I have been feeding them. when I woke up this morning one of them was almost gasping for breath he wasnt hot and about hours later he passed he was just barely 24 hours old. the other one is still holding on strong though he still fills up with air in between feedings. The other one is now 5 days old and still strong and perky. Reti I have been doing what you said . one feed with yogurt one with apple cider and one with collodial silver (sp) the other feedings are just plain kaytee. I have the older chick up to 1 cc and he seems to be digesting well. TAWHATLY . I did what you did I put a heating pad in a box and put them in a bowl on a towl and at first the temp was in the high 80s but it began to drop so I put them back in the bator. I have two new hatchlings and one hatching as I speak I have fed the two that hatched this morning just straight yogurt to be diffrent and I am praying they will be ok. am I working a lost cause? please pray that these babies survive. after this egg hatches I only have one left to hatch other than the two that dont seem to be fertile. what should I do to keep them at a good temp on a heating pad?


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

ok I still have them in the bator. The newer one that hatched yesterday has the best poop I have seen yet (it sounds weird but I am very exited!) As a norm all my chicks I have hatched have pooped a watery green poop which I was told means infection (Their first poop b4 I feed them is to) well this lil guy just pooped a solid brown and white plop! Is this good???????


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Solid brown with a white plop is excellent! I hope things will go well for you and all these birds from here on out.


Terry


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## TerriB (Nov 16, 2003)

Naturesgift said:


> ...The newer one that hatched yesterday has the best poop I have seen yet (it sounds weird but I am very exited!)...


I can totally relate to that feeling!!!  Sounds like you are doing a great job giving these babies a chance at life!


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Wonderful, hope this one has a better chance. Maybe you can keep him separated from the others, just in case the other ones have something infectious going on.

Reti


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, right now you're on a roller coaster with these babies and I know you get disheartened but just remember that without your intervention they would have had no chance at all.

If I may make a suggestion. You mentioned you are feeding them with ACV, yogurt and then exact. I would feed them exact at every feeding with yogurt added to it. You may want to have one feeding only, say mid day, of just ACV, about 1/2 cc but I never had to do that with the babies we've raised so I just don't know how that works. 

I am so happy to hear the last baby is doing well and I agree with Reti that it would probably be best to keep him separate from the others.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I thought the ACV was in the exact. I thought I mentioned one drop of ACV in the formula. 

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

I had been feeding them with the exact at every feeding st one with acv and one with yogurt. The chick that I thought was so healthy passed this morning. Also my 6 day old chick passed this afternoon. I am alomost ready to throw in the towl. Its sad my tears wont bring them back. I am begining to wonder if maybe what I am feeding them is maybe to hard on their lil tummies b/c their immune system is so low b/c of the bacteria. a new chick hatched this morning (I have one egg left to hatch I dont think the other two are fertile) anyways I am trying something new I dont know if you would approve but I really hope so. I have ony been feeding it yogurt. (I believe I read about doing this in one of the first few posts) I gave the other chicks some chick starter (the powder) mixed in with their food . (they both will be 2 days tomorrow) I am really sick of loosing these lil ones I am doing my best but its doesnt seem to be working. I am so confused and i am beginning to really believe it is the bacteria from the silo. 

mandie


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Reti said:


> I thought the ACV was in the exact. I thought I mentioned one drop of ACV in the formula.
> 
> Reti


yes you did mention it ...and I have been doing this.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Could be. There are things that they can get through what's called "vertical transmission" (sick from the egg) and Salmonella is one of them. Dying in the egg or very soon upon hatching is a sign of that kind of thing. We don't see that very often but this is one circumstance where it might be expected given your description of the living conditions prior to the rescue. And, due to the fact that they're hatchlings, about your only chance would be to give them Trimethoprim/Sulfa (there are many formulations--"Bactrim" is a typical one) from the beginning and that would be one tiny amount. That's a last-ditch chance and you may not have the time to try it. Going on the history already, by the time symptoms present it's already too late.

If you can get that stuff, we'll give you dosing information depending on the type (there are different blends of the Trimethoprim and Sulfa components). It is also possible that a bird will make it a lot further and become a carrier. It's also possible that this theory isn't correct but it's looking a lot like it is.

Pidgey


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I agree with Pidgey, there must be something going on with those babies. I think at this point you could try an antibiotic, the one Pidgey mentioned.
I am so sorry for your losses, it must be very hard to see thsoe little babies pass away. Please don't feel bad, you are doing everything right.

Reti


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I weighed an egg and extrapolated this: a freshly hatched chick is going to be in the 13 gram range. That could vary a bit, but it's a good start. For pigeons, the typical range of dosing for Trimethoprim/Sulfa is 60 to 120 milligrams per kilogram of bird per day, divided in about any way you want to do it. For the 13 gram example chick, that would mean three-quarters to one and a half milligrams, once to twice per day. That's a very difficult amount to measure and you'd only try it by way of taking a much larger quantity and mixing it very well with a large amount of water and then drawing up the required amount in a syringe to administer to the bird. How that's going to be done depends on the drug that you've got on hand and how it's packaged. When it comes to a situation like this, the math is everything.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Incidentally, it also says in the book that treating birds suffering from "vertical transmission" is very difficult as the organism has become very "host adapted", whatever that means. I think that means it's very well entrenched and has a lot of defenses built up. In the same section, they mention that it's pretty easy to be battling the L-forms (the same bacteria but with little or no cellular walls) which means that some antibiotics are rendered useless. In such cases, it can get into a battle with shifting meds.

Pidgey


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

where do I get this medicine (that I an have it on time) btw The most one oy chicks has weighed is 10 grams


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Here's a link to the pigeon supply houses in the resource section:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9455

Most of them carry this medication in one form/by one company or another.

fp


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/multi_meds/index.html#Trimethoprim/Sulfa

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

http://www.globalpigeon.com/gps.php?keyword=Trimethoprim+Sulpha&action=search

http://www.jedds.com/ProductDetail.asp?MainCategoryID=67&SubCategoryID=564&ProductID=2421

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

My guess is that in order to have it "in time", you'd need to get it from a local vet. Either they'd have it or could give you a script from a local pharmacy. It's the same stuff for us or them although for them you'd normally get it in a powder like the links above that fp gave you. While that stuff is easier to use (versus having to grind a pill up and then do the math), it's realistically going to be some days before you can get it and so you have to weigh that probability against the birds you've got left and what their time left is likely to be. Add to that the uncertainty of the diagnosis.

If you're in or fairly near Toronto, your best bet might be our member Jazaroo if you can't get a vet to help you (they fairly often won't but you never know).

Pidgey


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

Think she lives in Missouri:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=166034&postcount=3

One of the links I provided also has a tablet form through Thomas Labs, although could be that you have a grain and feed store nearby that you could
get this same medication at, but there are enough variations in the links to give
you a good idea of what your looking for and what to ask for hopefully.

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, getting cases crossed, oops.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Mandie, I am so very sorry. Like others have said, there has to be a bacteria thing going on with these eggs.


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

If you get a powder from one of the pigeon supply houses, it may give instructions like "one teaspoon to the gallon". That's the kind I've got. Normally, the smallest mix that you'd be able to do in a case like that is 1/4 teaspoon in a quart. I tried something this morning to see how well we could dose out a single dose for one of these little ones. I took a regular straight pin (sewing pin) with the average all-metal, one-piece construction and flanged head. Holding the pin by its tip end, I dipped the flange of the head into the Trimethoprim/Sulfa powder that I've got (20% Trimethoprim, 13% Sulfaquinoxaline, 67% excipients or "filler") and wiggled it to pull out as much sitting on the edge of the flange as possible. It can vary some and you don't want to get finger oils on the pin because it'll stick (wipe it off with a clean something if that's the case) but if you watch closely and do it several times, you can get to where you can control the amount within reason. When it's stacked up all the way around the flange of the pinhead just a shade thicker than the flat of pinhead itself, it's about a milligram. When it's as thick as you can get it without being stuck by way of oils, it's about two milligrams. The average is generally in the 1.5 milligram range. With the powder that I have, that's about 0.5 milligrams of pure medicine. So, with the 13 gram example bird that I did earlier, that's about two of the pinhead flange draws of the stuff, leaning towards the average-quantity draws. That was the best way that I could think of, and test, to describe to you how to measure a small quantity for your situation with a widely available household device. Positively getting it in the chick will have to be your problem. 

Incidentally, I tested the method by way of doing it over and over with ten such draws dropped into a tare on a precise scale that I've got. The average weight that I got was from 14 to 16 milligrams with very little variance on the tare. I rather doubt that different powders are going to weigh much differently than that although medicine concentrations vary. 

Pidgey


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi all,

It's Mandy's Mom here.

One by one each lil one died. It has been very hard on Mandy, but I wanted to tell you how much hope you gave her through your posts, how much encouragement and just how much of a blessing you all have been to her.

We still have five (forgive me for not being up on bird terms) five babies that are feathered. One that had been near death, missing all it's back and head feathers is coming along slowy but surely. There are even signs of new feathers coming out. The scabs have healed and fallen off. My question in all of this is..
How are the pigeons in the silo still hatching babies that live? I too believe it was the bacteria that killed them. 

We did note that after a few days the bottom/belly of the chicks turned black. After turning black the next symptom was gasping for air, then death.

Due to the intense cold weather we are experiencing that silo didn't get scraped out. Mandy peeked in and low and behold more eggs with mothers roosting on them. She is going to beg the farmer not to empty that silo until those chicks have hatched and are feathered, then try rescue them if he will hold on for her. We know he needs the silo soon, but we also know that too our advantage, the weather is so cold that all the molasses like corn and dead birds and babies are frozen solid and only an ice pick would break up tiny amounts so he will have to wait till a good thaw to work in it. 

I hope this thread stays open so that Mandy can still update you on the five lil ones that pulled through coming in so sick and chilled. They are eating wild bird seed/ some medicated chick feed, and one still gets that special formula as it isn't eating on its own yet. She is very discouraged, knowing she is not the Creator, but also knowing the compassion within her to sustain those little lives. 
I am just baffled at why those mothers could hatch them and some would live, but not one of the eggs that hatched here lived. 

Thanks to all of you, I know this forum was THE most looked at page on the internet for the last few weeks straight, and because of your kindness, she will continue to come and learn off of all of you.

With all my heart, thank you,
Blessings,
Tamar


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

I am so sorry the babies didn't make it, I know it must be very hard on Mandie. She is a wonderful young lady and she did a great job caring for the eggs and the babies. 

Why do some babies raised by their parents lived? Well, it is hard to tell, but my guess is probably most of the babies in the silo probably didn't make it, but the few that did they might have gotten antibodies from their parents for whatever is going on in the silo.
Unfortunately antibodies are not found in the formula and even healthy babies handraised by humans generally are smaller and more prone to infections than the ones raised by pigeon parents. We just can't replace the crop milk.

For the new eggs, you'll will have to make a plan. Pigeons lay new eggs before the babies wean and the cycle never ends. Maybe when the new babies will be around two weeks old you and Mandie can remove them and continue raising them and close thei parents entrance to the silo so they can move on. Or you can replace any eggs laid within 24 hours with wooden or plastic eggs. This would cause distress for the parents though if the owner of the silo decides to start his work and the parents will have to leave their eggs, they don't know they are wooden.

Think it over and you can decide which solution is best.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

TY Reti for your words of comfert. It was so sad to see them all go it was crushing to loose the las baby this afternoon. 
I think b/c of the cold weather I can postpone the filling of the silo. I will go and check on the progress of the eggs every few days so I dont disturb the incubation. It is a long climb up that silo to peek in but it will be worth it. when the chicks are two weeks I can rescue them and shut the lid or the silo (if it still closes) 

I also have noticed that a couple of the pigeons are white Is it possible they belong to someone and they are really being missed? How do catch a pigeon to see if its banded? Some of the pigeons are purple and green they are so pretty. 

out of my older babies one is white and gray three are blue and gray and the other one is so bald still I cannot tell yety but his feathers are coming back so I will see. alot of the parents with eggs in the silo are white and gray. 

I still have three eggs left one I am sure is dead it should have hatched with the others. the other two were still fresh when I got them one didnt do anything and the other one is slowy forming . 

Mandie


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## feralpigeon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear the news this evening that your baby died today, I know with
all the great care and effort that you have put into this rescue that it must 
have been heartbreaking and very discouraging for you. Thanks so much for still continuing to do your best to ensure that this situation has the best possible outcome for the birds in the silo.

About the bands and being able to see them, alot of times you can just see 
them when they are standing around or flying from one spot to another.
If they are banded, there's no telling how long they've been gone from 'home'
without contacting the owner. Although frequently they are not wanted back
again if asked, and many times are willing to let the finder have as a pet. They do need to be contacted, though, and if you run into this situation you can get help here tracking the info down. It is a good idea to let the owner
know that you would be interested in keeping as a pet if this is what you 
would like.

Good luck to you,

fp


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Naturesgift said:


> We did note that after a few days the bottom/belly of the chicks turned black. After turning black the next symptom was gasping for air, then death.


You know, that almost sounds like a clostridial infection of the navel. I'm looking into it in some books. When you turn one over, their bodies almost look like they're separated into two sections--the back section and the front section. Did the black occur starting on the middle bottom of the back section?

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

The yolk sac works kinda' like our umbilical cord and attaches to the intestine. It's completely absorbed into the body by the time they hatch and what remains at that point continues to provide nourishment and antibodies for the first few days. They end up with a little belly button out of the deal which can get infected with canker and many other things like E. coli, Proteus, Streptococcus fecalis and Clostridium sp. With pigeons, it's worse in eggs washed prior to incubation. You can find out all about that in AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, pp. 820-821, Edited by Ritchie, Harrison & Harrison and published by Wingers Publishing, 1994 and still obtainable here: http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/products.asp?dept=8

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Without true clinical testing, I'm not sure that we can settle on Clostridium species as the cause but that's certainly a bad family. Clostridial bacteria are the ones responsible for Tetanus (Clostridium tetani), Gas Gangrene (usually Clostridium perfringens--it causes tissue death that turns black and not green as is commonly believed), Botulism (Clostridium botulinum)... I just can't say enough bad about this bunch--in fact, this is about the nastiest bacterial family on the planet. There are quite a few diseases and presentations of Clostridial infections that are less well known than the three biggies listed above. The stuff's real common but it's obviously something that you don't want in the wrong place at any time.

A freshly hatched chick has a natural weakness with respect to the navel and it seems that they can get infections there even before they've hatched.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

After doing a little more research on Clostridium, the medications get a little funny as that's a species of bacillus that doesn't respond to a lot of our more regular antibiotics. The suggested medications for the wound presentation (an infected navel rates more as a wound) are Clindamycin and Spiramycin. Those aren't ordinary medications by any stretch and are generally prescription only.

Another thing is that this family of bacteria is extremely difficult to kill and doesn't respond well to disinfectants. The suggested means to do that are autoclaving and flaming (heat and plenty of it). To autoclave something means to get it up to higher temperatures than boiling (approximately 250 to 350 degrees) for varying amounts of time depending and to flame something means to literally take a blowtorch of some kind and spray the object with flame. People still use this technique occasionally to clean their pigeon lofts. It's one of those deals where you obviously REALLY want to KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING before attempting it.

Anyhow, you might want to consider disinfecting your incubator at this point and any other objects associated with this rescue and rehabilitation attempt. That environment (the silo) would theoretically be a pretty good place to encounter this bacterial species, by the way, because Clostridium spp. are often found in soil and cultivated crops. It used to be fairly common that people occasionally got Botulism from home-canned vegetables (like green beans) due to improper canning procedures. The stuff really likes to grow in anaerobic alkaline environments (little or no air). 

Incidentally, these bacteria are the worse more for the toxins that they create than anything else. For instance, botulinum, molecule for molecule one of the most toxic byproducts on earth, is a substance thrown off by Clostridium botulinum.

Pidgey


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## Maggie-NC (Jun 22, 2005)

Dear Mandie and Tamar, I am very happy to read that the squabs are surviving thanks to all the hard work you two have put in. Recently, even in my area, there have been so many reports of pigeon culling that I am getting disheartened - but, then people like you come along and revive my hopes that mankind can help the pigeons. So, thank you both for what you are doing and although the babies didn't make it, you have made a difference.

Pidgey, also, thank you for that information. I hope I never encounter anything like that. It also points out how important it is that when people post that they mention every little thing that seems to be out of the ordinary with ill pigeons.


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## Reti (Jul 20, 2003)

Great info Pidgey.
Thanks.

Reti


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

o pidgy I think i have a problem...I have quail eggs in the bator set to hatch next weekend. are they in danger? can I safely remove them to disinfect the bator? HELP!


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I should think so but they may already have bacteria clinging to the eggs, too. This is just one of those times where you'll have to do what you can and then hope for the best. At your earliest convenience, though, you should break the cycle (of incubating eggs) and then sterilize it. It'd be educational for all of us if you took a picture of the incubator itself and the internals so that we can all understand how it's built and what problems cleaning it might entail. I've seen something like that before but it's been a couple of decades, at least.

Pidgey


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

Oh, by the way, I forgot to ask directly--did you wash those pigeon eggs before or during the incubation process?

Pidgey


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

no pidgey I never did wash them .. I have started to raise Quail and I was researching the incubating process b/c I came to discover I have 8 males and 2 females when its suppose to be a ratio of 3 females to 1 male. Anywhoo I read that you are not supposed to wash the eggs b/c any bacteria on the egg will instantly be obsorbed (sp) into the eggso no I never did wash them.


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Hi everyone,

It's been real busy here, sorry I haven't posted.
Update:
Three quail hatched, wow are they amazing! Within hours of hatching they feed and drink all by themselves. They are growing like weeds!

In the meantime...
I adopted two baby pigeons out of the barn. I am not letting any adults nest in the barn, and we are going to secure the silo so that they cannot get back in. 
The babies are so beautiful.
My first one is growing under our eyes, each day new feathers come out, and it is eating and growing rapidly.
The second one I took as something took a chunk out of it's side. We have been keeping the would clean, we used peroxide, provadine (sp) and silver creme. That lil bird wants to live! The wound healed over, no infection!

From the first batch, I have four birds. I lost one that had been pecked totally bald, the head had a huge deep wound as did it's back. I was so attached to that one, it really hurt as I thought she would pull through!
Three are having fun learning to fly outside now, and are all doing excellent. The fourth one was one I took home as it wasn't flying it had injuries on it's leg. The "scab" fell off tonight, but there is a "hole" where the scab was, and the swelling still isn't gone down. She eats and drinks no problem, has a good appetite. She soils herself on her injured leg so I have been bandaging that area to keep it clean, but it doesn't seem to be healing. I use silver creme, peroxide and provadine on it.
After calling around, the only "meds" I can find here is something called Marvel Aid.
It says it is a broad spectrum antibiotic drinking solution. It does not state how much to give, it just says to give instead of water, not diluted. How much should I give to my pigeon? Before I give her any, I need to know how much I can give her. She is an adult, she just isn't as big as the rest of them.

The active ingredient in this medication is sulfadimethicone

Thank you for any help you can give me.


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Marvel Aid is something I hadn't thought about in a long time .. it's actually a very good product .. check this link: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=6089&N=2003+113626 .. it's Sulfadimethoxine

You give it to the birds full strength in place of their drinking water .. no dilution.

Terry


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## Naturesgift (Nov 29, 2006)

Okay, I will be doing this for the adult bird, but what about the baby bird? Do I use the medication instead of the water to mix the formula with? I realize I didn't mention that though the second baby pigeon wound's cleared up, it isn't gaining weight like the other one.

Is this medication safe to give to the baby?

Thanks,
Mandie


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Naturesgift said:


> Okay, I will be doing this for the adult bird, but what about the baby bird? Do I use the medication instead of the water to mix the formula with? I realize I didn't mention that though the second baby pigeon wound's cleared up, it isn't gaining weight like the other one.
> 
> Is this medication safe to give to the baby?
> 
> ...


I don't think I would use the Marvel Aid to make the formula and would stick with plain water for that. 

The Marvel Aid should be safe for the baby as long as we can figure out how much is a proper dose. Unfortunately, we don't know if the baby has something that Marvel Aid would be effective against. If, for example, the baby has paratyphoid, then we should be treating it with Baytril. Do you have a way to weigh the baby, preferably in grams?

Terry


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## TAWhatley (Mar 6, 2001)

Jazaroo was kind enough to post this information to me regarding the use of Marvel Aid for paratyphoid (salmonella). So, it looks like you are good to go. 

Terry
-------------------------------------
_

Hi Terry,

I have been following this thread and although Baytril would be the drug of choice, Marvel Aid's active medicine, Sulfadimethoxine , is active against Salmonellosis. Here is a link, you have to scroll way down to the bottom. http://tinyurl.com/yxwbz6, and perhaps it would be better than nothing.

I think since it is meant to be taken full strength as the birds only source of water. I have a bottle of Marvel Aid and it is 15 mg of med per fluid oz. My reading shows a dose of 25 mg/lb once a day for Sulfadimethoxine to treat. So for a 300 gm bird this would be roughly 1/2 oz or 15mL. of Marvel Aid a day or roughly 2.5 mg or 5 mL per 100 grams.

I think if the bird is small it could be given in two doses with no harm on effectiveness.

I hope this helps,

Ron_


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## Pidgey (May 20, 2005)

I haven't read this thread in a few days (been out-of-pocket) but I just read the last little but so I'm going to make one quickie comment that might not have any use here, but:

When we diagnose Salmonellosis, or Paratyphoid, it so happens that there are many forms of the disease where the stuff can be isolated to the guts, have disseminated to the organs, be causing arthritis in one or more joints, a lethal nervous system form... just a lot of different mischief but usually only one presentation at a time. Anyhow, the Sulfas are more used when it's causing intestinal problems like enteritis and the fluoroquinolones are generally more for the treatment of the more serious and spread-out forms as well as trying to clear the carrier state.

I think that's right.

Pidgey


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