# Baby pigeon keeps vomiting. Please, help!



## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi,
I found a baby pigeon on the floor 3 days ago.
It's really really tiny, I don't think it's older than 1 week.
It wasn't moving and was super cold, but it got better faster after getting warm.

It has been eating and doing great until yesterday night.
Now every time it eats, it vomits all the food 10 seconds later.
It does want to eat, I think it's really hungry, but every time it tries, it starts shaking and vomits all the food some seconds later.
I've even tried with more liquid food, but it's the same.

It has also been shaking its head during night, and opening its beak, all this since 14 hours ago.

I live in a small town in Argentina. I already asked two vets about it and they don't know, and said they don't treat birds.

I don't know what to do :/ please, help me!


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## kalel (Oct 14, 2008)

what kind of food are feeding it? what kind of pigeon is it? a feral? do u have any medicine?


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## Kailey lane (Jun 8, 2009)

hello,thank you for saving this baby.I dont know much about babies but i know you should try to keep it warm,many other forum members will be able to give you advice.does the baby have feathers?


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi,
I've been feeding it as vet told me, with a smooth mixture of some cereal crackers and water, using a syringe.
I'm not sure about what kind of pigeon it is, here is a photo I took some hours after I found it:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Doreans/SS101503.jpg (3 days ago, it has some feathers now).

I don't have any medicine S:





Kailey lane said:


> hello,thank you for saving this baby.I dont know much about babies but i know you should try to keep it warm,many other forum members will be able to give you advice.does the baby have feathers?


It does have feathers now (barely).
I keep it warm using some heater under the place I made with a basket and towel.
I think temperature is fine...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Doreans,

Thanks for helping this little baby. There is a lot for you to know and I am going to post a few threads to help with this. This little baby need to kept at around 95 degrees, this is very important, if he is cool and anyway it will stop his system from processing food and this may be what has happened. Does he feel nicely warm when you pick him up, or cool, even a very little?... you can't think with temperature.. you have to be sure... what feels warm to us may be too cool for a baby bird. Make sure he is warmed up and try a little warm water to see if this with help get things going again. We will need to come up with a better formula for food for you as well, as cereal crackers may be too thick for his age.

Can you post a photo of how he looks right now?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/help-egg-is-hatching-and-i-dont-have-a-clue-47170.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/feeding-help-needed-for-newly-hatched-pigeons-47336.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/new-mom-to-2-little-pigeons-46776.html

Good luck with him,

Karyn


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## kalel (Oct 14, 2008)

hi
sweet little bird. i know its important to keep them warm at that age. is its crop emptying normally after feeds? 
as dobato said check out the links


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

What town in Argentina do you live in? Are the cereal crackers you are using Nestum?

You could try cross-posting on the Argentinian forum *Pajaros Caidos *. They might have information that we don't have about resources there. 

One of our members,* Pawbla*, is involved with that forum and lives in Mar del Plata. I have PM'd her to look at this thread.

I have also posted on my* Facebook *group as a number of my FB friends are in Argentina but I think most are near Buenos Aires.


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Hi Doreans,
> 
> Thanks for helping this little baby. There is a lot for you to know and I am going to post a few threads to help with this. This little baby need to kept at around 95 degrees, this is very important, if he is cool and anyway it will stop his system from processing food and this may be what has happened. Does he feel nicely warm when you pick him up, or cool, even a very little?... you can't think with temperature.. you have to be sure... what feels warm to us may be too cool for a baby bird. Make sure he is warmed up and try a little warm water to see if this with help get things going again. We will need to come up with a better formula for food for you as well, as cereal crackers may be too thick for his age.
> 
> ...


He's definitely warm! I don't know if 95 degrees but I'll make sure.

I just took the photos:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Doreans/b3.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Doreans/b1.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Doreans/b2.jpg

Thanks, I'll read those!




kalel said:


> hi
> sweet little bird. i know its important to keep them warm at that age. is its crop emptying normally after feeds?
> as dobato said check out the links


I'm still not sure about when it's empty.
I feed him when he starts looking for food and... kind of asking for it lol
Until today, that was 4 times per day I think.

He haven't defecate at all today.



Feefo said:


> What town in Argentina do you live in? Are the cereal crackers you are using Nestum?
> 
> You could try cross-posting on the Argentinian forum *Pajaros Caidos *. They might have information that we don't have about resources there.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I think I can go to Buenos Aires if it's necessary. The problem is it wouldn't be easy to keep he warm while travel and I guess it would be stressful.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Message via Facebook:

_Decile que lo llame al Dr. Funes y que le explique que vive en un pueblito y le pregunte si hay algo que pueda hacer a la distancia:
(011) 4504-2566_

(Trans roughly Tell her to call Dr Funes and to explain that she lives in a small town and to ask him if there is anything he can froma distance.)

I don't know how far away from BA you are, but a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel should provide enough warmth, car travel can be stressful for some doves and pigeons but should be OK at that age.


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Feefo said:


> Message via Facebook:
> 
> _Decile que lo llame al Dr. Funes y que le explique que vive en un pueblito y le pregunte si hay algo que pueda hacer a la distancia:
> (011) 4504-2566_
> ...


Thank you.
I just called and he told me he has to see baby pigeon.
The only problem is that I'm 14 hours away and it's a crazy trip :/ plus I'm kinda short of money.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Doreans said:


> He haven't defecate at all today.


This not a good sign, we will need some warm water not only to get things moving again, but to help prevent him from dehydrating. A little better than warm water would be warm hydrating fluid, you can make this yourself:

To 1 liter of boiled water add 2 1/4 level tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon baking soda (bicarbonate of soda).

If you can, with an eyedropper, get 2mL of this warm fluid into him, let see if things will move through him, if it does move, after the crop is flat again, like in the first photo, give another 2mL of fluids, when he starts to have droppings again, then we will think about food.

When you were feeding him, was the food nicely warm (around 102-104 degrees) and not room temperature?


Karyn


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Dobato said:


> This not a good sign, we will need some warm water not only to get things moving again, but to help prevent him from dehydrating. A little better than warm water would be warm hydrating fluid, you can make this yourself:
> 
> To 1 liter of boiled water add 2 1/4 level tablespoons of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon baking soda (bicarbonate of soda).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your help. I just got the baking soda, prepared the fluid and gave it to him. He vomited most of it S:
His food was warm, but less than 102-104.


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Doreans, try again in a little while, maybe 15-20 minutes, this time after you give the fluids, very, very, very, gently massage the fluid around his crop, this is the area that fills like a balloon at the top of the chest, bottom of the neck area, as he may have a blockage, also gently lift and extend his neck up and slightly back while doing this (make sure the fluid is warm). Do you think you can locate/but some ACV there (apple cider vinegar) health food stores here sell it, it has to be raw with the "mother wort" still active. It can help with problems like this. The food for baby pigeons has to be at this temperature or problems like you are having can occur, when older, over two weeks old, this is not such an issue but for babies food temperature is critical (102-104).

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Doreans, 


Chilled Neonates or Chilled-Babys very easily acquire Candida and or also Canker problems, which will diminish appetite and or cause Crop Stasis and or vomiting.


'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin' are the usual resort for the Candida...

Metronidazole, or, Carnidazole or varous other 'zoles', for the Canker.


Apple Cider Vinegar can help for combating the Candida, as well as aiding the other Medicine to work better.


Can you post some images of the Baby, and, of their most recent poops?


Babys need to be a little warmer than our own Body Temperature...through-and-through, or their Crop passing and digestion and everything else slows, and any foods they had eaten begins to ferment and spoil for passing too slowly.



Formula similarly must be warmed to be about as or slightly warmer than our own Body Temperature.


All of this is pretty delicate stuff with Babys, especially if they are frail or ill.


Might be good if you can appeal to a Vet of some kind in order to get the Meds a.s.a.p.


If you do, please print out my Post and bring it with for his or her consideration.


"102 - 104" degrees of course is Farenheit ( and not Celcius )



Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

14 hrs!

Question, would feeding directly to the stomach help? If it is possible to tube a baby this small...

Carnidazole is not available in Argentina. Metronidazole ("metronidazol") is available at any vet, it's used for fish and dogs (and humans I think, but it'll be cheaper to buy it at a vet store, AR$10 I think it was the last time I bought some).

You can get Nystatin as Nistatina or Micostatin for humans. Dunno about vet use.


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Pawbla said:


> 14 hrs!
> 
> Question, would feeding directly to the stomach help? If it is possible to tube a baby this small...




Hi Pawbla,


The Crop, and, the Proventriculus are between the Mouth and the Stomach.

It is not really possible to Tube nutrients or formula or medicines directly into the Stomach.


Tiny Babys can be Tube fed, but everything is of course a lot smaller.




Hi Doreans, 

Any contents presently in the Crop and not passing, must be taken account of...and, this will influence what is done and how it is done.


Lots of critical details to all this.


If Crop has liquid or liquid and food contents which are being thrown up and or which are not passing, either way, the contents need to be 'neutralized' ( from their spoilage and resulting toxins and infesting organisms ) with the ACV Water and or better yet, the 'Medistatin', or both, if this is a Candida/Yeast issue.


This needs to be done first, and, soon as Crop is passing liquids, the Metronodazole ( if Canker is also suspected - images of poops/urates?) can be made into a solution and tubed into the Crop, and or simply given with the Medistatin to be present once the Crop begins pagain.

If the Crop is passing as is, great! Medistatin can be drank or tubed in, and the Metronidazole ( if called for ) can be given as a part of a Tablet into the Throat for it to be swallowed, or, made into a soluton with the Medistatin to be drank or tubed in.


Is the Baby's Throat 'clear' as far as can be seen?




Phil
Las Vegas


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Whoops, I though you could get into the actual stomach. Sorry.


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Doreans, try again in a little while, maybe 15-20 minutes, this time after you give the fluids, very, very, very, gently massage the fluid around his crop, this is the area that fills like a balloon at the top of the chest, bottom of the neck area, as he may have a blockage, also gently lift and extend his up and slightly back while doing this (make sure the fluid is warm). Do you think you can locate/but some ACV there (apple cider vinegar) health food stores here sell it, it has to be raw with the "mother wort" still active. It can help with problems like this. The food for baby pigeons has to be at this temperature or problems like you are having can occur, when older, over two weeks old, this is not such an issue but for babies food temperature is critical (102-104).
> 
> Karyn


Done!
He threw up again, this time with some food. I'm not sure about how much of the fluid he's throwing up.
I THINK it's crop is more empty, but again, I'm not sure about when it's empty and when it's full. I'll post a photo in the end of the post.

He pooped three times the last two hours! 
The first time, a tiny green and white spot. Then just green fluid (I hope it's because he's swallowing some water). Then another tiny green and white spot.

He got really tired after all the feeding-vomiting-getting wet thing, so I think I probably should leave him to sleep until morning.

I'll see if I can get the ACV somewhere tomorrow.
I was really hard just to get the baking soda here lol.




pdpbison said:


> Hi Doreans,
> 
> 
> Chilled Neonates or Chilled-Babys very easily acquire Candida and or also Canker problems, which will diminish appetite and or cause Crop Stasis and or vomiting.
> ...



I was reading about the diseases and got really worried :/
Anyway, the weird thing here is that he was doing GREAT until yesterday.

About the vet, I already called 7 different ones.
Two of them told me that I have to talk to what they call an "exotic vet", they didn't even recommended me any medicine :/



> "102 - 104" degrees of course is Farenheit ( and not Celcius )


lol I knowww! (100 celcius would be boiling).
Thanks Phil 

Oh! I have "vinagre de manzana" in my house, but it doesn't have the mother worth. I can't use it?










Photos:

This is what he looks like right now:









His poops are really small. Green and white, mostly liquid:









Again, thank you all SO MUCH for your time and help!


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

I think you should treat for Candida and Canker.


Any Vet would do, insist that you just need these Meds, and you do not need an Avian Specialist or 'exotic' or anything else. Vet is welcome to examine the Baby but you do not want to be charged for a useless exam by someone who knows nothing about Birds, hence, "I just need to buy these two Meds please! I already HAVE a diagnosis and TIME is of the ESSENCE!!!" 

If you have to bring the Baby, make sure to keep him warm during transit.

A Horse Vet or Reptile Vet would be fine, you just needs the two meds.

A people MD would do if he'd give or sell you some or write a perscription you can take to a Pharmacist, etc.


Do the ACV-Water now if possible, don't delay.

If you can not get any Apple Cider Vinegar, you could use Baking Soda, BUT do not - absolutely do not - permit both to be used at the same time...must be only one, or, the other and no going back and forth with them.


This will help with the Candida or Yeast issue which is likely a contributing factor to the present condition.


No more feeding till meds...


Keep him warm!

Encourage small drinking sessions ( I think he is a little dehydrated ) making sure the Liquid is close to body temperature...just lightly moisten your finger tips and guide his little Beak by having and keeping your finger tip pads on his Beak sides, guide his little Beak into the ACV-Water, or, the Baking Soda Water. Do not allow toon much Liquid to be in his Crop at a time...if he seems to have some liquid in his Crop, wait for it to pass then do small drinking sessions again.


He's one cute little Baby!



Phil
Lv


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Doreans, what you have done has helped a bit, him throwing the food up with the last session hopefully may be enough to get things going again. Although not much, him passing three droppings for the first time all day is also a positive thing. Pawbla has given you the local names of the meds you will need if you get them we can help you with how much to give, the amount will be very small. Please keep him warm and try Phil suggestion on how to get him to drink, but if he does not drink on his own you will have to give warm fluids again, and massage the crop again, in case there is still a clump of food blocking things, I know it may seem best to leave him alone, but there is a balance between leaving him alone and making sure we are trying to keep him hydrated that has to be worked on.

If vet will see him he can give a small amount of fluids by what is called Sub-Q means (subcutaneous) where he can use a small syringe to inject fluids directly into the bird, this would be done into the fold of the leg 1-2cc. This is another way of starting things moving again when they get stopped up like this.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Doreans, 



He looks like a pretty hardy little Quill-Baby. With right attentions and meds, he should be able to get through this just fine.


He should gladly drink if guided in ways he understands, where your slightly moist, warm, finger tip pads supply the tactile sensation of mom-or-dad's Mouth/Throat, keeping them on the sides of his Beak as you guide it for him to drink, keeping them on it as he drinks...and, making sure the Water or ACV Water is about Body Temperature.


Do make every effort to locate and acquire the ( Medistatin or Nystatin and, the Metronidazole or Carnidazole or Rinidazole ) Meds, and for one his size, you would not need very much for a full course of treatment.



Once we can all feel assured his little Crop and other innards are able to pass Liquids alright, we can discuss ways of his eating formula volentarily, and thin formula then can be made for his being fed in an easy natural way he will enjoy.



Are you able to tell by 'feel', when his Crop is empty, and or when it has some contents/liquids in it?


What was his food/diet up till now? Can you please review that for me?



Phil
Lv


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

I'll visit every pet shop trying to find the medicines you mentioned tomorrow.
He did three more droppings the last two hours (only fluid).
He's drinking about half or more of the fluid formula Dobato recommended, so I guess he's hydrated.

When should I try giving him solid food again? I don't wanna make it worse now he's finally swallowing liquid.


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## Derek Boyes (Jan 9, 2006)

*Baby Feed*

Sorry I haven't read through the full post yet. I highly highly highly recommend Nutribird A19 as the formula ro raise little pigeons on. Had the greatest succes with this one.

Good Luck with your bird.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

Metaclopramide/ *Metaclopromida * increases crop motility and prevents vomiting, I think it is available in Argentina but I don't know if you need a prescription and we would need to calculate the dosage (another task for Dobato!) But if canker is causing a blockage it won't help.

Another product I have found useful for sour crop is activated charcoal: *carbón activado *. It is available in Argentina but shouldn't be used with medicines that are given orally because it will bind them so that they are not absorbed as they pass through the digestive system.(that is why it is useful in cases of poisoning).


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Tropical Fish Supply/Stores may have 'Fish Zole' or similar, which is ( or needs to be, ) 'Metronidazole' - this would be needed if wishing to treat for Canker ( which I suggest you do ).


'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin', used for treating Candida/Yeast infections, I do not know where you will find it unless you can appeal to a Pharmacist, Vet or MD, it is not likely that it would be available in Pet Stores.


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

I just feed him with solid food again and he didn't vomit so far 
I hope he's fine again...


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Doreans, can you post in detail what you are feeding him, can you post a link/photo like you did with the vinegar so we can see. How thick are you making what you are feeding?... 1 hour from now I would like you to give him some warm fluid, you can take 10mL (2 teaspoons) of the fluid and add two (2) single drops only of the vinegar you have (it translates as ACV) and give him 1-2cc of this and very gently again massage his crop area, like last night. Did he pass droppings overnight? Is he warm enough? Any possibilities on the meds?

Karyn


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

Dobato said:


> Doreans, can you post in detail what you are feeding him, can you post a link/photo like you did with the vinegar so we can see. How thick are you making what you are feeding?... 1 hour from now I would like you to give him some warm fluid, you can take 10mL (2 teaspoons) of the fluid and add two (2) single drops only of the vinegar you have (it translates as ACV) and give him 1-2cc of this and very gently again massage his crop area, like last night. Did he pass droppings overnight? Is he warm enough? Any possibilities on the meds?
> 
> Karyn


This time I gave him Nestum as someone here recommended (some Nestle cereal for babies from 7 months old).
I made it very liquid this time since he didn't have any solid for 1 day and I want him hydrated. I'm taking a photo in a while.

Okay, I will do that!
Hm yeah, many droppings, only liquid.
I think temperature is fine. He's warm and if I make it any warmer he starts moving out of the towel, so I guess it's fine as it is right now.
I still don't know about the meds, I'm going out to see in 1 hour...

Thanks!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Doreans said:


> This time I gave him Nestum as someone here recommended (some Nestle cereal for babies from 7 months old).
> I made it veeeery liquid this time since he didn't have any solid for 1 day and I want him hydrated. I'm taking a photo in a while.
> 
> Okay, I will do that!
> ...


OK good.... the Nestum (thanks Feefo) sounds like a better food option for him and making it quite liquidity is good. My concern was that what you were feeding before was too thick and rough and he was having a problem passing it along his system. Since you have changed things, just give 1cc of the fluid with the ACV in an hour, and see how things go. Next time you feed, add 2 drops of the ACV ("vinagre de manzana") to each 10mL of mixed Nestum (you won't feed this much at once of course), you can also add a 10 drops of fresh olive oil to help with calorie content (feed at 102-104 degrees), the ACV will help with possible yeast issues in his crop.

Yes, too hot is just as bad as too cool, so I will trust that you are getting his warmth right. Please let us know how you make out with the meds.

If you are ever unsure of anything with him, ask before guessing.

Karyn


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi Doreans,


Well...if onto Foods, make sure the formula is runny, like melted Ice Cream on a hot day for consistency...never thicker.


Make sure Crop is indeed passing, before feeding again, count the poops each day, fresh cloths or White Paper Towels each day to make seeing the poops easiest.


Images of freshest poops?



Best wishes!

Phil
Lv


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## Doreans (Nov 16, 2010)

pdpbison said:


> Hi Doreans,
> 
> 
> Well...if onto Foods, make sure the formula is runny, like melted Ice Cream on a hot day for consistency...never thicker.
> ...


The consistence is just like that.
He did 4 droppings last night:









He's already eating solids and not throwing up at all 
It seems like all the fluid helped him cleaning his crop.


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

> the Nestum (thanks Feefo) sounds like a better food option for him and making it quite liquidity is good


Actually I got that from Clara Correa's page on what to feed baby pigeons and doves (on her blog *Pajaros Caidos - Ayudandolos a Vivir.)* 

If you haven't contacted her yet I still think you should as she should be able to give you more information about meds available in Argentina as well as identify the bird. [email protected]


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## pdpbison (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad things are going well!


He's a lovely little 'Peeper'!


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## Dobato (Jul 3, 2008)

Very good!.... things are moving again. Make sure you read all of the links I first posted for you a few times, they contain so much information it's hard to put it all into one post for you. Please keep us updated.

Feefo, the blog is not in English, so thanks then for the translation and mentioning the Nestum .

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/he...lue-47170.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/fe...ons-47336.html

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f20/ne...ons-46776.html

Also, look at the photos in this link below, when you move your cursor over the photos it will give you how many days old they are. Look at days 6, 7, 8, and 9 and see how full the parents have filled their crops with food, then look at day 12 when the crop has some food, but not that much. Their crops fill up like little balloons with food (this is like a storage area for food, not their stomach), you don't have to fill as much as in the photos, but you want to try for perhaps 1/2 full (make formula to melted ice cream consistency, like Phil mentions) then feed again when the crop is almost flat.

http://www.mumtazticloft.com/BabyPigeons.asp


Here is a link with some more comments on hand raising a pigeon by Dr. Colin Walker, it also has a photo of a baby with food in its crop.

http://pigeonracingpigeons.com/2009/12/26/articial-incubation-and-hand-raising-young-pigeons/


Karyn


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## Feefo (Feb 8, 2002)

I am assuming that Dorean speaks good Spanish, but "google translate" is a very useful tool when dealing with rescuers from non-English speaking countries...another thing Clara Correa taught me!


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## Pawbla (Jan 6, 2009)

Feefo said:


> If you haven't contacted her yet I still think you should as she should be able to give you more information about meds available in Argentina as well as identify the bird. [email protected]


You can search her up in Facebook too. We have some sort of "bird rescuers network" over there.


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